# Opinion wanted: Is RADAR mandatory for Cruising, or just get AIS?



## jgsteven (Jan 27, 2009)

Hello!

I am looking to do a bit more extended cruising, and am concerned about collision avoidance. I am considering two solutions:

1. Radar unit installed on the mast
- Very expensive, have to unstep mast, etc
- I don't want to put a stern mounted pole on my boat
- May not be able to fix it myself if it breaks

...or...

2. Adding an AIS class B send/receive to a chartplotter
- Much cheaper, can install myself, can buy those new sails sooner, etc

I realize radar is the 'gold standard' for collision avoidance, but is it still necessary? It is my understanding that cargo ships must transmit AIS info, and so it should be as good or better at finding the big boys, while smaller ships without AIS may not show up on radar either.

My feeling is that AIS along with the standard 15 minute visual check should be a comfortable level of safety while cruising -- and that even with RADAR it wouldn't be safe to skip the visual check.

...so is option 2 enough? Or should I bite the bullet and shell out for option 1?

Your opinions are appreciated.

Regards,

--
Joe


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## RanAweigh (Jan 16, 2009)

While AIS is a nice tool you are presuming that ALL vessels in your transit are is participating. This is probably not the case. AIS depends on the participation of others to provide information to you.

Radar is an active instrument giving you a real time image of objects around you. While there are situations wherein objects may be masked on radar it is fewer occasions than a vessel not having AIS. A properly tuned, quality radar system will display some pretty small objects. I routinely see fishing floats at greater than a mile out.

You don't really need a "pole" if you don't want it. There are mounts that fix to the backstay.

If it came to a choice of a chart plotter or radar I'd choose radar. Inshore you can navigate by radar a chart plotter won't tell you that you are about to be run down by that cigarette boat.


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## AjariBonten (Sep 7, 2007)

When all the buoys, islands, drunken stinkpotters, etv have AIS, then maybe.

I can say that in an unfamiliar area, RADAR is an absolute essential navigational AID, just like GPS, charts, binoculars, and a rested and sober mind.


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

When there is a fog down and you are sailing between a few dozen islands/rocks, AIS is as good as tits on a rain barrel.

Go for radar.


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## sck5 (Aug 20, 2007)

I am putting radar on my boat after being out on the Chesapeake last fall when suddenly a pea soup fog came down as I was approaching the Bay Bridge. Couldnt see ANYTHING. Sure, the chartplotter told me where it thought I was but a radar can not only show you those landmarks for REAL but also where the other boats/ships are. Freighters move fast enough that if you wait until you can see them in a fog you may well already be toast.


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## Paul_L (Sep 16, 2004)

Comparing Radar to AIS is not really very valid. You did not describe the type and location of sailing you plan on. If you are sailing in areas that have limited fog, then Radar is much less of a must. Boats have been cruising for a long time without Radar. It is only in the last 10-15 years or so where small Radar prices have come down so much that many more boats have Radar. On an overnight passage it is nice to be able to turn on the Radar and see whats out there and what way they are going. Get caught in fog a few times and you'll see the value very quickly. 
AIS prices have come down so much that it is a nice safety feature, independent of Radar. Most can be left on continuously with a much lower current draw than Radar.

Paul L


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## jgsteven (Jan 27, 2009)

Paul_L said:


> Comparing Radar to AIS is not really very valid. You did not describe the type and location of sailing you plan on.


Fair point, sorry.

I sail San Francisco bay and the surrounding coastal areas. I am a desk jockey during the work week, so I only occasionally cruise. I am looking at making some longer trips this year, to places such as Catalina Island (~450nm) when I can get some vacation and am thinking about changes I need to make to the boat.

It looks like I can get an AIS send/receive along with a little plotter display from for about $1300, and be able to install it myself. RADAR is more like $3000+ for an entry unit, and uses significantly more power as was pointed out. (right now the boat uses almost no energy, and it would be nice to keep it that way)

So, RADAR users out there: Do you leave it on all the time? Or just for the occasional check?

Thanks,

Joe


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## btrayfors (Aug 25, 2006)

Used to teach sailing on SF Bay (Cass Sailing Marina, Sausalito). I remember all those times sailing in thick fog and nasty rainy conditions. Radar would be a very valuable addition.

For coastal cruising as well, radar is a wonderful tool. In fact, experienced navigators would likely rate it as the 3rd or 4th most important navigational tool aboard, after the compass and fathometer!

You can't really compare AIS to radar. AIS is a passive device which displays information about boats which transmit an AIS signal. Not all boats. In fact, only some large commercial vessels. Not fishing boats. Not yachts. Not runabouts. Not sailboats. Not buoys. Not islands or coasts or rocks. Not storm systems.

Guess as an older navigator I'm not much enchanted with AIS. For many, I think it could be a distraction, luring them into a sense of comfort by displaying information on a screen about SOME large vessels, while distracting them from using the most important navigational tool of all: the Mark I eyeball 

Bill


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## Paul_L (Sep 16, 2004)

Joe,
Sounds like you are looking at an AIS receive/transmit system. When I said cheap, I was referring to the receive only units. 

You can get into a low-end Radar only for a lot less than $3k these days. Make it a radar chart plotter, 4kw, etc then the price goes way up. A Furuno 2kw unit with a 6in B&W LCD display is around $1,350. The radar install is more time consuming. Given where you sail and your plans, radar would be nice.

Paul L


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

We've just returned from a week's sailing in Mexico on a boat with a chartplotter, latest available "charts" and radar. The official charts of the Mexican coast are appallingly bad.... every where we anchored the plotter showed us to be up to a 1/2 nm "inland".

Making a landfall (or simply negotiating a group of islets or a headland) in the dark in this region without radar would be scary as hell. Radar is so much more than a tool for collision avoidance with another vessel.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Flat out, I would rank radar over almost everything, including a chart plotter. I would rank it over a wind indicator. I might rank it over speed, not depth though.

AIS is only good for ships. You will use your radar for COUNTLESS things outside of ships - from storms to oil rigs, to markers, to other (smaller) boats. THe list is too vast to name out everything.

You can get by without radar, but at those times when you need it, you will really wish you had it. AIS ranks at the very bottom of the things I would prioritize.

Brian


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## TxLnghrn (Apr 22, 2008)

Cruisingdad said:


> Flat out, I would rank radar over almost everything,


Magma makes a radar?
:laugher :laugher :laugher


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## Moonfish22 (Jan 29, 2009)

Yeah, just take the extra half step and go with Radar, well worth it, you won't regret it. As said before, one harbor entry in fog makes it worth it.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

TxLnghrn said:


> Magma makes a radar?
> :laugher :laugher :laugher


That is the radar reflector.

- CD


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## billyruffn (Sep 21, 2004)

OK, I'll pile on -- RADAR!!!!!


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## mgiguere (May 22, 2004)

I have had radar on my boat for 10 years and it has probably only been used 20 times, but it makes life a lot more comfortable for those critical times than anything else....at night (to see other ships, boats and marks), in the fog (to see everything else), in the Chesapeake bay to see other boats in overnight races; however, if I didn't sail at night and was only in the Chesapeake Bay, it's not worth it. 

Moe


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

Neither is mandatory, but if you're going to add one or the other, definite radar. In two years, I've only really needed it once, but managed to get by without it.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Cruisingdad said:


> Flat out, I would rank radar over almost everything, including a chart plotter. I would rank it over a wind indicator. I might rank it over speed, not depth though.


Second only to the BBQ?


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## labatt (Jul 31, 2006)

Yes, yes and yes. Radar is indispensable. You never realize how much so until you actually need it and use it. I would highly recommend getting a heading sensor (or other hardware necessary) in order to be able to use MARPA. MARPA will allow you to mark and track radar targets, bearings and speed. You only need to be out in the fog or night (on purpose or without choice) once to understand its usefulness.


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## jrd22 (Nov 14, 2000)

I assume you have gotten the message by now, but I will add one more stick to the pile. I am debating adding a second radar to the boat. Nuff said.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

RADAR all the way. AIS is to RADAR like snow tires are to a Honda Civic in Tennessee...not strictly necessary, but a very nice thing to have in crowded conditions.

AIS tells you where ships are, so it's like having just one eye that can see one colour. RADAR is like having a lookout with X-ray vision atop a 500 foot mast...it's active, it can see through fog, rain and the dark, and it sees stuff you might have to be almost on top of to see by other means. RADAR also confirms location and chart accuracy by means of ranging and bearing to known features, and all but the crappiest radars in the worst conditions can be tweaked to show fairly obvious features on the shore. Finally, a RADAR can have a pretty nice "guard" setting that will alert you via alarm to the presence of big, fast metal ships or large rocky things within 8, 12 or 16 miles or so. AIS can do this, except that a lot of shipping, most fishing boats and all rocks do not have AIS.

AIS is like putting a beautiful dress on a naked goddess...an enhancement and enrichment of something inherently desirable. But if you want to go sailing with a nice dress instead of a goddess, feel free!


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

btrayfors said:


> In fact, experienced navigators would likely rate it as the 3rd or 4th most important navigational tool aboard, after the compass and fathometer!


Exactly as Bill says. I'll go one step further and rank them in the history of navigation: 1)Compass, 2)Chronometer, 3)Fathometer, 4)Radar
Everything else is in contention for a distant Fifth.


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## Rockter (Sep 11, 2006)

In the summer of 1997, I got fogged in on the approach to Inverness, and I could see nothing horizontally. It gave me the jitters. I bought a wee radar, a JRC 1000, that Autumn, and mounted it on a stern pole.

In the flat calm that ordinarily is found with fog, I can see a lobster buoy at 4 miles... I kid you not. Normally, in a choppy sea, the fog is not so thick. Flat calm is when fog really is worst, here in Scotland, at least.

It is not the world's finest radar, but it works well enough. It is also good at helping you know how far off a shore you are at night.

GPS and radar will serve you well.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

I would say that you could lose GPS and navigate by RADAR and a current chart alone, but the GPS won't tell you where the old steel herring trawler is at night in the fog.

The downside of RADAR is that it takes practice (which I encourage) to learn to fully exploit all the interesting things it can do. Approaching line squalls at night in the tropics would rank high on that list, I would say.

Most well-founded blue-water vessels can support the battery-charging and battery-capacity functions required to run RADAR, but the very newest RADARs are much less power-greedy, and even the old ones can be run quite conservatively. A light coastal sailboat can simply use the engine to create amps for the RADAR for the rare instances where constant use is required, like getting back into port in pea soup over that last mile of approach.


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## btrayfors (Aug 25, 2006)

Wow! I'm proud of you guys. Often, threads like this fall apart in a flurry of informed and uninformed opinions on the virtues of this or that technology.

This one hasn't. Twenty-three posts and agreement that radar beats AIS hands down as a navigational tool. And, as SailingDog said, after the compass, chronometer, and fathometer in the history of navigation RADAR is a clear winner over everything else.

I've sailed for many years without radar. From my first sailboat in Indonesia in 1956 to my present boat up to 2004. Never had radar. Sometimes wished we had it, like the time we navigated up the Adriatic from Corfu to Dubrovnik in a thick fog, using only RDF back bearings on Bari and Brindisi beacons on the Italian coast. Radar would have been very nice.

Or approaching the Canary Islands when I wasn't too sure of my celestial "fixes". Radar would have been nice.

Or, closer to home, one dark evening singlehanding and trying to find the entrance to Peachblossom Creek, just north of Oxford, MD. Pitch black. The Loran (all I had for electronic navs) said I was there. Stopped dead on a very calm night. Couldn't see the entrance with top-notch 7x50 binoculars. Radar would have been nice. (As it turned out, the Loran was right...we were right outside the entrance).

Or, the many times sailing in the fog on San Francisco Bay. Or one dark night approaching the north coast of Grenada after a long and very rough passage from the BVI. The chart and the newly fitted GPS didn't agree. Radar would have been nice.

Preparing for my first trip to Maine in 2004, I fitted a radar to Born Free. Furuno 1832 with a green-screen CRT and a 24" radome for maximum target definition. Found I could spot lobster buoys with ease. And approaching fronts. And harbour entrances. And ships nearby, as well as fishing boats, rowboats, sailboats, buoys, etc. During the 2007 trip to Maine from Washington DC we had thick fog all the way from the C&D Canal, down the Delaware River and Bay, and halfway up the New Jersey coast. Radar was a godsend.

Now, I wouldn't be without it. I'd throw my 5 GPS units and my radios and RDFs and lorans and sextants and all the rest overboard...except the compass and fathometer...before I'd give up the radar.

And, please understand, I'm still a real newbie in its use. I can do certain elementary things, but I still haven't plumbed the depths of its capabilities.

Buy a radar. Forget AIS, until you have absolutely everything else aboard and are bored stiff 

Bill


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

btrayfors said:


> Wow! I'm proud of you guys. Often, threads like this fall apart in a flurry of informed and uninformed opinions on the virtues of this or that technology.
> 
> This one hasn't. Twenty-three posts and agreement that radar beats AIS hands down as a navigational tool. And, as SailingDog said, after the compass, chronometer, and fathometer in the history of navigation RADAR is a clear winner over everything else.
> 
> ...


Hey Bill,

That was not Sailingdog... it was Sailaway. THough they have the same brain (Sway with one half, SD with the other), and stink the same, they are in fact two different dogs.

- CD

PS I never heard you mention where the ole SSB ranked in that. I might conclude that all that stuff would go before the SSB!!!


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## btrayfors (Aug 25, 2006)

dad,

Right you are! Sorry dog. Sorry Sailaway21.

Bill


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## jgsteven (Jan 27, 2009)

*Thanks all, the answer is clear! *



Valiente said:


> AIS is like putting a beautiful dress on a naked goddess..


...a horrible crime?



Valiente said:


> ...an enhancement and enrichment of something inherently desirable.


...oh, yea -- that. 

Anyway, thanks to all. The message is clear, and a mast mounted radar is on the to-do list.

Regards,

--
Joe


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## XTR (Feb 28, 2007)

Got caught in a storm trying to get a delivery up the Chessy one night. Can't imagine how it would have turned out if the boat wasn't radar equipped. I'd say if you are going to sail to unfamiliar places it is more than a nice to have.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

First, truth in disclosure; I own a Miltech AIS receiver, 2 KW Raymarine radar and an E systems chart plotter. I’ve also been sailing SF Bay and NorCal for the past thirty years (I started when I was two  )

There is no easy answer to your question. SFBoatingdotcom has a link to Miltech’s real-time AIS plot of the Bay where you can see that there is a tremendous amount of large ship traffic on the Bay at any one time. I like the data feature of AIS which displays ships name, destination, ETA and speed & heading. The E system also predicts the closest point of approach in both time and distance. This is handy for me as Freya is berthed in the Oakland Estuary and I want to know if I will have a crossing situation inside the narrow confines of the Estuary (think the turning basin!) This is much more valuable than listening to VTS on the VHF. Also, we tend to spend a lot of time in the ship channel as we sail homeward. The other place where it pays off is in the SF approach channel. Again, knowing what is soon to be coming your way is a godsend.

<O</OI like RADAR too. Used it last when coming home from the 3BF in the dark. Very helpful in tracking the 50-60 sailboats returning to their various marinas. The only downside was nobody had their reflectors up and I had to us the quarter or eighth mile scale to pick up reasonable returns which unfortunately, meant I couldn’t see long range to detect a fast moving container ship. My little 2KW transmitter isn’t big enough to do reliable navigation on its own. There simply isn’t enough resolution to accurately paint a coastline or other land features. Here in Cali, I’d stick with the chart plotter. In Mexico, use your copy of Charlie’s Chart’s to augment your paper ones. Better yet, get a set of accurate waypoints from your cruiser friends. The E System’s overlay feature is great as I could readily tell the difference between a channel buoy and a boat. The last two times I’ve been to Half Moon Bay, I used a Radar approach along with the chart plotter. The added benefit was I could “see” beyond the breakwater and into the anchorage. Will everybody displaying their RADAR reflectors, it was easy to figure out the open spaces in the crowded (Labor Day) holiday anchorage. 

<OFishing boats might be a problem in other areas, but with the declining fisheries (fewer boats) and our normal sea states allowing them only to motor between 10 and 15kts, these are not so much a problem here. Besides they tend to fish pretty far offshore so you only encounter them coming and going. I have had many more near misses with whales than with fishing boats. Our local crab fishermen use old, small fenders as floats and my RADAR will never pick them up. I just try to avoid following the 96 foot (16 fathom) contour as this seems to be a favorite trap line. <O

After Clinton declared the Central California Coast a marine sanctuary, all the large ships must transit outside of it so all that you will encounter going down to Catalina is other small craft working north and south. RADAR here is helpful, AIS is not. When we went to Hawaii last year we used AIS exclusively as it only consumed about 1 AH where the radar was much more than that plus you had to run the display. At sea AIS rocks! It reliably identified targets of concern and when we called them up on the VHF, we were able to hail them by name.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

It remains to be seen what the new "digital" or "broadband" RADARs can do against the older units in terms of "fine-grained" response. My sense from reading the articles in PS, ON and panbo.com is that they eat fewer amps and have better response at long ranges and no real advantage on close stuff.

Or I could have that back to front.

Anyway, if I get similar and reproducible results with the new units and they eat fewer amps and maybe weigh a touch less, I will make one of those types my next big purchase for offshore use.


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

I'm kind of inerested to hear (maybe an incorrect assumption?) that some folks leave their radar on and running?

I always have a watch on deck and only switch the radar on when there is an immediate need. After the need is over, sometimes 5 minutes, longest 1/2 an hour, then it goes back off.

My stereo uses more power on a voyage than my radar.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

I would customarily have it on "guard" setting at night and would be more concerned with awash containers than ships. During the day I would have it on in fishing grounds, shipping channels, ferry runs, etc. or in fog. Part of that logic is to be seen by others who will see my RADAR!

There's also the use of RADAR to determine proximity to squalls, a great thing in my view as you can get the boat moving around the edges of them...if you can find the edges.

I am least likely to use RADAR on passage in the daytime offshore. My impression is that seeing shipping in the Trades is pretty rare, as is seeing other yachts offshore unless you are close to popular destinations.

I would like a less power-hungry RADAR to give the option of more use _when needed_, not because I would have it on constantly like a nuclear-powered aircraft carrier or something. It's the same logic as wanting expensive "warm" LEDs: they run somewhat cooler, use a LOT less power and they'll last 10 years. They are also intrinsically more durable due to the absence of a fragile filament. I have found even in the Great Lakes that my old-style spare bulbs don't always survive storage intact.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

the only time i have ever wished I had radar was in a heavy fog somewhere in the hudson canyon. I had a couple of close calls with high speed fishin ^%#H$^$'s headin out at full throttle in a 50' visibility fog everyone else i needed to worry about was on the radio. just my 2 sence


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## SimonV (Jul 6, 2006)

As I single hand, my radar is a godsend, I have the alarm conected to a pisa 110 dcb buzzer and when I get tired it is set to 20 sweeps every 10 minutes. I tow a Hamilton Ferris generator and have never lost power.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Radar*

I don't understand why you do not like the idea of a pole mount. Several years ago I looked at what was available off the shelf from Edson. Great product, but too expensive for me at the time. I just took a picture to my local welding shop and has one made. Not only does it hold RADAR but also other antennas...GPS, AM/FM, etc.
I did use 'starboard' above and below the deck as a backing plate below and a shime above to keep it plumb.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Here in the river and when I sailed the Great Lakes, the greatest danger in fog was not being run down by freighters. Both Great Lakes freighters and river barge towboats use radar in the fog, and usually use it at night. A good radar reflector solves that problem. But show me a fisherman in a little tin boat with a 25 HP outboard or a cigarette boat with a big block Chevy engine who has radar, and then pick out the one who has sense enough to go less than 10 mph in the fog! Do you need radar? Not if you always do your cruising on sunny days! (What are the odds you can do that?) But when you meet the unexpected, your life may depend on it! Like the American Express slogan - "Don't leave home without it!"


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Valiente-

Maine Sail recent bought the Garmin 18HD IIRC. He has posted about it... and it is a digital unit... might want to look at his posts regarding it. 



Valiente said:


> It remains to be seen what the new "digital" or "broadband" RADARs can do against the older units in terms of "fine-grained" response. My sense from reading the articles in PS, ON and panbo.com is that they eat fewer amps and have better response at long ranges and no real advantage on close stuff.
> 
> Or I could have that back to front.
> 
> Anyway, if I get similar and reproducible results with the new units and they eat fewer amps and maybe weigh a touch less, I will make one of those types my next big purchase for offshore use.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Will do...thanks, SD.


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## Zanshin (Aug 27, 2006)

I have a new boat that has a nice radar and chartplotter system installed. My old boat's chartplotter was only used 2 or 3 times over the course of years, the only time I felt I needed it was during a squall between islands where my visibility was zero and I didn't want to hit an immobile object.
I've used the radar with MARPA and chartplotter overlays on some passages, notably one between the USVI and St. Martin where there were numerous freighters and cruise ships bumping around at night and the radar was great. I had MARPA give me an indication of whether or not the vessel would be a problem, and had a very large guard zone set on the radar to warm me of things in my "space". I came into St. Martin at night and the radar warned me of a vessel ahead that I could not for the life of me see - then it crossed in front of some shore lights and I think it was a ~70 foot coast guard vessel running with no lights. I like the new radar/chartplotter system and have switched it's status from "toy" to "tool".


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

BTW, IIRC, he loves the new system... 


Valiente said:


> Will do...thanks, SD.


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## seafrontiersman (Mar 2, 2009)

In my opinion, an AIS in your situation is a wast of money.

I happen to be a merchant mariner so I deal with this issue daily; whle most commercial vessels (some have been "grandfathered") I've never seen commercial fishing vessels or recreational vessels equipped with one; they are the ones to worry about. 

Good luck!


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## zaliasvejas (Jul 18, 2007)

Just a thought.... could radar make you sail irrationally, just because you can see things in the dark? What if it fails at the worst possible moment? In the middle of traffic, at night, in foggy weather.... My thought is that you should not put yourself in that situation in the first place... I like redundancy and options when sailing. Have two ways out of a situation, sail cover off and halyards attached when motoring, engine warmed up and ready when sailing...
Could radar temp us to be foolish?


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## jrd22 (Nov 14, 2000)

Zal- yes. Having radar can tempt you into making bad decisions, like leaving a nice secure anchorage in pea soup fog because you have it. When navigating in fog, or entering an unknown harbor at night you have time to realize how dependent you are on it, and if you are smart you will start to change your attitude from "I'm invincible" to "sure glad I have it, hope I don't have to use it". Where I am it's inevitable that several times each year, even with the best of planning, you will be in the fog or dark and having (bulletproof) radar is essential. I wasn't kidding when earlier in the thread I said I was considering adding another radar.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

I try to see navigation, particularly when assisted with electronics, as a holistic and dynamic process. By this I mean that one evaluates a variety of sensory inputs (eyeball, RADAR, charts, depth, weather, traffic, local knowledge, etc.) in the context of a (sometimes rapidly) changing environment.

The overwhelming mandate is to complete the task at hand (crossing the Channel, reaching an anchorage, docking at one's home basin or club) safely and prudently.

This means I use the devices and knowledge I possess to avoid both fixed hazards (known shallows, rocks and nav aids) and moving ones (I like to know where the ships are, so I can not be near them as much as possible!). It's collision avoidance in the same way that maintaining a five- or six-car length braking space on a highway is...and doesn't it seem the case that some tool will always deke into that space obliviously?

I see evidence, however, that not everyone thinks this way in boating. If you make your waypoint some half-tonne fairway buoy and sail to that waypoint...you run the risk in bad weather of clipping the thing. Yes, I have seen this outside of race situations; some of us remember the speedboat that "GPS'ed" its way right onto a pier because they didn't correct their plotter for the extra 200 feet the port authority built onto it in the previous six months.

I also think there's a "moth and a candle flame" effect that can take over with some skippers who think "ah, RADAR and GPS mean I can cut this corner safely and shave 15 minutes off my passage". This is a false economy if the reason for maintaining an offing is a nasty tidal rip or current you simply never encountered when you only had a paper chart and a pair of eyeballs for your pilot.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

Valiente said:


> I see evidence, however, that not everyone thinks this way in boating. If you make your waypoint some half-tonne fairway buoy and sail to that waypoint


I recall a trip home from Block Island in the fog that was unsafe at any speed  and the navigator saying if he knew the loran was gonna be that close he would have put us futher away from that can :laugher


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Well, here's a radical thought for collision avoidance on a budget: Add a loudhailer that has 'fog' functions, and will sound the fog signals for you automatically. 

No, that won't help you detect the enemy, but it WILL ensure that if anyone else is out there trying to keep a proper watch, they'll have a good way to know you're out there. And they might just avoid you.

Doesn't replace AIS or radar, but it is way more basic and way way cheaper.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Beats sending my wife to the bow with a horn can and instructions to "blow five short blasts and keep your eyes peeled".


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## CaptainForce (Jan 1, 2006)

I've noticed among these postings that not much has been said about the area in which people cruise and the necessity of radar. We cruised the Florida and Bahamas area for many years without radar, not that it wouldn't have been welcome in some brief blinding rains, but fog was a rare phenonmena. I can only remember a few early morning times of fog in an achorage quickly disapated after sunrise. We installed our radar in 2002 when we decided to cruise up to New England and I can't imagine being in those waters without it. As for the comment about having the radar on in times clear visibility; I do that often. Only by referring to my radar on a clear day am I able to increase my interpretation of the radar screen without a clear view of my surroundings. 'take care and joy, Aythya crew


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Yes, that's a good point. Radar is capable of more than just spotting ships and the shore at night, and fiddling around with it in perfect conditions (preferably having had some instruction first so that the interpretation of the display is correct) is a very good way to exploit the technology to its fullest.

I recall seeing in Toronto Harbour the point where aircraft landing at the Toronto Island Airport appeared on the boat's radar screen, and being able to imagine very clearly the "angle" of the beam leaving the radome and heading up and out until it intersected the descending airplane. Tweak the gain in the other direction and you see distant rainstorms.


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## tartanDave (Apr 5, 2010)

Sorry everyone I have replaced radar with common sense. I am in no rush to go anywhere and radar will not pick up debris, like logs or shipping containers in the water nor schoals or fishing boats. I feel to many captains push it because their electronic devices say it is ok. Murphy's law says all electronics fail at sea, and if yours has not, it's waiting for the worst.


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## hooligan6a (Sep 9, 2007)

I sailed around the world on a 29ft. sailboat. There is no way I had the power to run a radar, even if I only turned it on at night. I did not have any electronics that run off the ships battery. Only a hand held GPS. About 90 miles from the Panama Canal, I was run down by a very large ship(600ft.) I could not sail out of his way. He had radar, did me no good. Yes it was in broad day light.


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## rikhall (Feb 7, 2008)

Because of where we cruise (East Coast of Maine, Bay of Fundy) we have RADAR. About $1300.00, mounted on a pole; port, stern.

Because of who else is out there (really really big freighters) we have an AIS receiver. Less than $200.00 and we used an old VHF antenna, also on the RADAR pole on the stern.

Because I like to also know where we are, we have a chart plotter. We also have autopilot for those 10 hour stretches from Eastport to Northeast Harbour. And a hot water heater because the boss likes her shower, and a three burner stove with oven because I like to cook. And a propane furnace, because I like it warm after my shower . . .

And the list goes on. But - to answer the first question, me, I want both RADAR and AIS. But, you may cruise in a totally different location with different circumstances.

Shalom


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## oceanscapt (Aug 1, 2009)

Do you need Radar to cruise safely? No.
Do you need AIS B to cruise safely? No.
Are they nice additions? Yes. 

Radar can tell you things that AIS can't. Radar (equipped with ARPA or without) has the virtue of showing you what's going on, abet at a shorter range. You can navigate ranges, enter unknown harbors, check on boat traffic, find low lying atolls, double check distance off and bearings as well as GPS lat/long, and set guard bands for a bit better sleep at night.

Radar costs more than AIS B, may use more power than AIS B, and potentially, has a higher failure rate than AIS B.

The nice thing about AIS is that it can be left on 24/7 and will draw little power. If you want AIS B then the power requirements go up.

If I'm on a boat with radar, I tend to have it on in sea lanes or close to land. If I'm offshore and out of the sea lanes then I tend to have to wake every 6 minutes, do a couple sweeps, analyze the signals and beep if any target shows up in the guard zone, then go back to sleep. Power requirements are considerably less, I get a lot of info from the 6-minute timer, and I don't have to recharge the batteries so often.

One thing to consider is one of those all-in-one systems that seem so popular now. You get radar, GPS, chartplotter, depth, fishing, and some come with AIS. The displays aren't huge and there's a single point failure I find a bit disconcerting, but the cost of one of those is generally less than buying the individual items.


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## zaliasvejas (Jul 18, 2007)

I sail and live aboard in Maine. 
I do not have a radar. Frankly, when fog rolls in, and things get dicy, I rely on my ears and sight first. If I sense a boat near, I call on the radio. 
Radar might be helpful, but it takes more than starring at a screen to drive the boat. There are wakes to consider, smell of diesels and sounds of bells. I do not have an AIS system but I am planning on getting one. I race occasionally in Long Island NY and that is where AIS is king. Knowing the direction and speed of the tiny red lights representing a sea going tug with a barge in tow at night can make or break a race. 
By far biggest concern for me sailing in Maine is staying off the rocks and lobster pots. In any weather... That requires paying attention to what's ahead and constant vigilance. Somehow radar never came up as a necessary gadget yet.


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## u4ea (Oct 11, 2010)

There is no electronic gear that is necessary.

GPS shows you some of what is permanently there, but the precision makes it clear that the charts are not correct. Hence, you can't trust it.

Therefore, you also can't trust the charts.

Radar can show you what is actually there. If it is mounted LOW ENOUGH, it can detect things like kelp, logs, even shallow water and reefs (because the waves are different).

When mounted way up the mast, it basically becomes substantially less valuable. Its never useful for long range navigation, because the curvature of the earth, difference in curvature of the beam in different conditions, ... 

Sometimes, its very valuable, such as in fog crossing shipping channels.

Safety comes from careful and frequent observation, combined with fore thought and preparation, and -- most important -- respecting the sea and weather rather than the clock.


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## trisstan87 (Aug 15, 2010)

Tits on a rainbarrel??


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## ffiill (Jul 15, 2010)

Where I cruise off the north west coast of Scotland there are few ships and rarely does it get foggy therefore quite happy without radar or AIS. 
However if I were sailing the English Channel one of the worlds busiest shipping lanes and noted for fog I would certainly have a mapping AIS which has a radar type display and shows all commercial vessels which by International law will have an AIS transponder.Probably also fit a transponder so they can see me.
Radar remains too expensive for me-despite my boat having been fitted with a Decca system when new 32 years ago but u/s when I got the boat.


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## centaursailor (Nov 7, 2010)

Just spotted this great thread. Was cruising in company to Isle of Mann and heavy fog rolled in. No radar but got updates from following boat using their radar to identify vessels ahead. Will invest in radar when I can afford to.
Regards 
Brian


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