# Downeaster 38 , Fast Passage 39 , Valiant 40



## temerity24 (Mar 6, 2015)

Three bluewater boats at the upper size limit of what I'd be comfortable single-handing offshore. Budget under $85,000. Range - Pacific ocean. Am interested in your thoughts comparing/contrasting these three boats. Thank you.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

I would cross off Down Easter from my list, due to issues with quality of construction. The other two boats are: Valiant - good but watch out for blisters on hull, FP - better choice but hard to find.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

The Downeaster also has a pretty short rig as well, and apparently is fairly tender (I've been on one, but never sailed it). I like the look of them though, and there is a lot of space down below. 

I assume you've decided against others like the Tayana 37, or Pearson 368? I'd recommend my boat as well, a Rafiki 37, but they are slightly smaller than your target, and are hard to find.


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## gtod25 (Aug 5, 2000)

I owned a DE38 for 5 years, great boat, served us well but not in the same category as the Fast Passage 39 or Valiant 40.

I will admit to a major bias, but put a Whitby 42 on your list.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

There are 3 Passport 40s on YW under your price cap.. they'd need some TLC, no doubt, but good bones and IMO a better boat than those three.. better, brighter layout, much better cockpit, 'prettier' to boot.

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/Sail/type/Passport/40/1

A Passport 42 is something of a 'Valiant' knockoff by Stan Huntingford, IIRC.

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/category/type/Passport/42

Keep an eye out for a good Fraser 41/42 (aft/ctr cockpit respectively) too. A tad rare, perhaps, but can be found up and down the West Coast.

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/category/type/Fraser

Not sure you want to limit your list to just those three.


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## djodenda (Mar 4, 2006)

My father circumnavigated on a Downeaster 38. Certainly would not be my first choice due to performance issues, and the giant windows. 

But if you get truly serious about one, I could give your contact information to him and I am sure he would be happy to chat with you about it.

Get the Fraser. Erps will be with you shortly, I expect.


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## Argyle38 (Oct 28, 2010)

I agree with some of what has been said. The three boats listed are fairly different in design. Not at all familiar with the Fast Passage 39, but the Valiant 40 has a very good reputation. The designer of that boat, Bob Perry is a somewhat frequent poster on this message board and if he happens upon this thread I'm sure he can offer some great advice. 

I've owned and sailed a Downeaster 38 for the past 8 years. I'm not sure what build issues krisscross has experienced, but my experience and those of other owners that I've talked to, are that they are very well built boats. I've also been on several Westsails (which have a good build reputation) and in my opinion the Downeasters are very similar. They are solid layup on the hull, over an inch thick below the waterline. The bulkheads are all heavily tabbed in. I have heard of one hull that had blisters, but I don't think it's common. My hull has none. 

Not saying they're perfect. Any Downeaster on the market now would be pretty long in the tooth, and will have associated age related issues. If it has the original wiring, it will likely need to be replaced. Same with the engine. The caprail will likely leak unless it's been recently rebedded and it would be a good idea to replace all of the standing rigging before any hard sailing. I think these are reasonable issues when you are buying a 32-40 year old boat. 

The Downeaster does have a short, low aspect rig, hurting it's speed in light air. The schooner rig offers a bit more sail area and flexibility, but I've always thought that putting two sticks on a 38 foot boat was a bit much. An asymmetrical spinnaker helps greatly off the wind. I don't think that the Downeaster is particularly tender compared to other boats of similar design. It has less initial stability than most flat bottomed, beamy boats of today but that's to be expected from the design. Basically you'll heel to about 10 degrees in the first 10 or so knots, up wind. But it will heel only another 5 or degrees up until you are cracking on in 25 knots or so. Then you start reducing sail. I've only had my rail buried once, and that was in 40 kt gusts. 

Performance wise, meh, if I was in a hurry to get there I would fly.  They don't point well compared to a sloop rigged fin keel boat, but it's also not nearly as bad as you hear people describing at the yacht club bar or on forums like this. (They can sail upwind, FFS, square riggers can sail upwind!) On the other hand, they do track very well. On a close to about a beam reach, they will sail themselves if your sails are balanced. 

They have tones of storage aboard. I can literally have tools, boxes, spares, and random stuff stacked up almost to the overhead and it all has a place to get stowed when the work is done and it's time to go sailing. The lazarette could be it's own berth, I throw everything in there. 

Maneuvering the boat under power in tight spaces is always a challenge. I enjoy the challenge but some might find it off putting. Backing up in any kind of wind is very difficult. The bow wants to blow down wind and this windage is almost always going to be more powerful than the rudder in reverse. This is definitely a liability for these boats but if you own one, you pick your battles and sometimes you will find yourself anchoring out rather than taking a slip because the T-dock or bulkhead is full. 

Summary (IMO) for the Downeast:
Good: 
Solid (in my experience) heavy duty build
Tracking ability
Comfortable motion in most sea states (subjective)
Roomy, plenty of storage
Looks, they are quite pretty, I think 

Bad:
Light air boat speed
Pointing ability
Maneuverability (backing up in particular)
Age

Hope this helps. If you have any specific questions, let me know.

-Argyle


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## djodenda (Mar 4, 2006)

Argyle:

You certainly know the boat better than my indirect knowledge.. (I have very limited time aboard)

Would you please comment about the engine access/room, and what you thought of 
the small cockpit well.. I know my dad used deck chairs in the cockpit, and was pretty happy with that.

My Dad had Leisure furl roller furling, and really liked it. I am pretty sure he also got rid of the staysail "club"

I know he reinforced the big windows after one broke during a blow, which was pretty scary for him. Curious if you have done something about it.

I know that he pounded ashore in Bonaire for several hours during a blow. Took him a while to get it fixed, but he completed most of his circumnavigation after it.

He never could figure out how to back it up without warping.. 

I know he replaced the tanks, which I think were black iron..

Sorry.. don't mean to hijack the thread.. Your response was well thought out and written.. Just curious of your impressions.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

I'm watching this thread and enjoying it. It's good that we can all share opinions. It just feels good.


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## temerity24 (Mar 6, 2015)

I appreciate all the knowledgeable input. Those three are in my first group at the larger end of what I'm considering. Others on the radar are the Baba 30, CT Cutter 34, Valiant 32, Alajuela 33/38, Tayana 37, Bristol 28 Cutter, Cabo Rico 38, Pretorien 35, and Pacific Seacraft 34. I think the Hans Christian 33 would be pushing the final budget.


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## gtod25 (Aug 5, 2000)

Temerity, you need to tighten up on your criteria or you will drive yourself nuts. Or worse, you will buy a boat that fails on some important level. Its is often said that there are no bad boats (with a few exceptions) just wrong boats. List your important criteria here, starting with budget and people may be able to help.


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## SimonV (Jul 6, 2006)

With 85k in your pockets forget finding the perfect blue water boat and get yourself a well founded production boat and go sailing. Quality old style boats built for what you want are 25+ years old and getting older. If the old BW boat was that important today, they would still be building them. Read. Some books and blogs on those that are out there and look at the boats they and those around them are using. $85000 gets you a bigger boat, newer and easier to sail with comfort. Take your blinkers off and and look past the so called blue water boats.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

Don't forget the Valiant Esprit 37. Far more boat then the modern production boats...especially if your going offshore....


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## djodenda (Mar 4, 2006)

There's a Baba 30 that is being neglected at the end of my dock in Edmonds Washington.

You might get a deal on that one.

Not sure where you are, but I could probably get contact information for you.


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## djodenda (Mar 4, 2006)

Argyle38;2624185
On the other hand said:


> Funny thing about that.. I have taken my dad for a week's cruise in the San Juan Islands every summer for the past 10 years aboard my 36' fin keel cruiser/racer. When he has the helm, he still overcontrols... Back and forth, back and forth.. I figure the 12 years with his DownEaster "broke" his ability to drive a more responsive boat....
> 
> Last summer we went for a sail aboard the Adventuress, a 100 year old schooner, and my Dad took the helm. Big smile on his face as he realized he still knew how to drive a boat well.. as long as it had a big old keel underneath him with a rudder hanging off the end. Need to dig up the picture..


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## temerity24 (Mar 6, 2015)

gtod25 said:


> Temerity, you need to tighten up on your criteria or you will drive yourself nuts. Or worse, you will buy a boat that fails on some important level. Its is often said that there are no bad boats (with a few exceptions) just wrong boats. List your important criteria here, starting with budget and people may be able to help.


Didn't mean to muddy the water. The goal of this thread was to glean info and opinions on those three specific boats. Those others are just sailing around my mind's horizon. Process of inclusion/elimination is underway.


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## temerity24 (Mar 6, 2015)

SimonV said:


> With 85k in your pockets forget finding the perfect blue water boat and get yourself a well founded production boat and go sailing. Quality old style boats built for what you want are 25+ years old and getting older. If the old BW boat was that important today, they would still be building them. Read. Some books and blogs on those that are out there and look at the boats they and those around them are using. $85000 gets you a bigger boat, newer and easier to sail with comfort. Take your blinkers off and and look past the so called blue water boats.


Thank you. Point taken. Nostalgia can get expensive.


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## temerity24 (Mar 6, 2015)

djodenda said:


> There's a Baba 30 that is being neglected at the end of my dock in Edmonds Washington.
> 
> You might get a deal on that one.
> 
> Not sure where you are, but I could probably get contact information for you.


Yes, thank you. I'm about six hours from Edmonds and have family in Shoreline.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Life is thread drift.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

One thing I'd throw in here is that you should learn the lesson that Bob P. taught the world more than 40 years ago - fergit the friggin full (or even long) keel.

I just sold a good boat that was built for cruising blue water back in the 70's. It had a very long fin / modified full keel with a spade rudder and was unsatisfying to own & sail due to it's small rig and clumsy close quarters handling.

In every other way it was great but those factors completely overrode its good qualities.

Remember, you are buying a *sailing* boat, not a house.


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## Argyle38 (Oct 28, 2010)

Hi djodenda, I'll answer your questions below in blue.



djodenda said:


> Argyle:
> 
> You certainly know the boat better than my indirect knowledge.. (I have very limited time aboard)
> 
> ...


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## Argyle38 (Oct 28, 2010)

SloopJonB said:


> One thing I'd throw in here is that you should learn the lesson that Bob P. taught the world more than 40 years ago - fergit the friggin full (or even long) keel.
> 
> I just sold a good boat that was built for cruising blue water back in the 70's. It had a very long fin / modified full keel with a spade rudder and was unsatisfying to own & sail due to it's small rig and clumsy close quarters handling.
> 
> ...


IDK, Based on the three he listed in the original post, he may be looking for a house, or at least a sailing house. A J-24 is a wonderful boat of only sailing is what you're looking for. It lacks a bit if a livaboard/cruiser is what you need.

That same type of boat the you find unsatisfying (and I do get it, I'm a racer as well) I have a blast with. Just depends on what's important to you.

Besides, y'all fast cruisers must HATE sailing. Why, for the same distance, I get almost twice the sailing in!


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

aeventyr60 said:


> Don't forget the Valiant Esprit 37. Far more boat then the modern production boats...especially if your going offshore....


Good suggestion... Somewhere in the deep recesses of my memory, I seem to recall Jeff H speaking highly of Bob's Esprit, on the original Cruising World forum, way back when... Any boat that gets Jeff's stamp of approval, you can't go too wrong... 

The Fast Passage is a boat that I've always admired, as well, though I've only looked at one dockside, never been aboard... One certainly seemed to serve Francis Stokes very well, back in the glory days when guys like Mark Schrader and Stokes raced solo around the world in boats like Valiants and the FP 39...

THE MOONSHINE LOGS is a most excellent read, btw...

The Moonshine Logs: Francis Stokes: 9780924486678: Amazon.com: [email protected]@[email protected]@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/[email protected]@[email protected]@51HQA218FML


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

djodenda said:


> There's a Baba 30 that is being neglected at the end of my dock in Edmonds Washington.
> 
> You might get a deal on that one.
> 
> Not sure where you are, but I could probably get contact information for you.


That thing showed up neglected, still being neglected....will ALWAYS be neglected by that owner. At least last I looked, it did not have a 5' chunk of brown algae hanging on the rudder. Still has enough barnicles, mussels etc to make up a nice bisque!

Marty


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## Mal Reynolds (Oct 21, 2013)

I spent a lot of time with my father on his Valiant 40, Mooneshine offshore. 
I remember close reaching up from Bermuda watching the main bulkhead separate from the hull about 6" when she went off a wave, only to smash into the hull when she landed. I remember when he arrived in Newport after the tough 1976 OSTAR, the water tanks had crashed into the cabin. I remember my father having doubts about the strength of the hull, including the square cabin top. I remember Everett Smith (on another Valiant 40) talking about his fear as he would sit in the companionway and watch the hull twist through the waves. All of this was with relatively new hulls. 

When he decided to do the BOC, he sold the Valiant and bought the Fast Passage. You can draw your own conclusions. To my knowledge he had no issues with the Fast Passage. 

The layouts are very different, so that becomes a matter of personal taste. 

I wish my father was around so he could give you far more insight than I ever could.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

temerity24 said:


> I appreciate all the knowledgeable input. Those three are in my first group at the larger end of what I'm considering. Others on the radar are the Baba 30, CT Cutter 34, Valiant 32, Alajuela 33/38, Tayana 37, Bristol 28 Cutter, Cabo Rico 38, Pretorien 35, and Pacific Seacraft 34. I think the Hans Christian 33 would be pushing the final budget.


Seems like you are considering boats that are very traditional for the most part with still considerable differences among them. Of the ones you list I would lean toward Pretorien. Doesn't have the 'pretty factor' of many of the others but a tough, capable boat. Might push your budget, but the Hood 38, also from Wauquiez is another candidate.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

"watching the main bulkhead separate from the hull about 6""
That is just plain silly. 6"? Total BS. I have never seen ANY BOAT flex 6" in my life.

More Valiant 40's have circumnavigated than the total number of Fast Passages built. Draw your own conclusions.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

bobperry said:


> More Valiant 40's have circumnavigated than the total number of Fast Passages built. Draw your own conclusions.


Ah man! Someone let that Portuguese Water dog north of Marysville loose on the computer to brag about his daddy! :laugher:laugher:laugher

Hate that when that happens......

Marty


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

She types far better than I do Marty.


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## temerity24 (Mar 6, 2015)

On the BOB PERRY Forget The Full Keel side of things, these boats sound capable: Valiant Esprit 37, Pacific Seacraft Crealock 37, and I'm still keeping the Pretorien 35 in there. Fast Passage still in the mix.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Pretorian 35 is a very good boat as is the 38' Wauquiez model, one of my favorites.


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## theonecalledtom (Jan 2, 2008)

I enjoyed sailing my DE38 Cutter but upwind in low wind conditions was a slog. She would reverse in some level of control from about 2knots and up but I have to admit that switching to a fin keel took some work as I got so used to sliding sidways in a cross breeze and using the prop walk to kick the back over when docking.

She always felt solid to sail and would track well as previously described.

From 20-30 knots a reef or two in the main and staysail only would feel pretty good.

The interior was comfortable for myself and my wife and I once slept 6 onboard but that was pretty tight! The galley was a good size. The engine had great basic access but getting to the battery banks and anything else back there was a pain. We owned the boat for about five years and had one blister and no major issues while probably managing 50 days a year on the water.

When we bought our boat she was as much as we could afford at the time but significantly below your max. I consider her to have been great value for money but while we enjoyed her greatly with a bit more money I would look elsewhere. A cutaway keel, skeg hung rudder and more modern rig would allow you to sail more. Other interior designs are more comfortable (take a look inside a HC38). I don't know what the going rate is right now but we sold ours for half what you are looking at - probably could have got more but wanted a quick sale and money for a new boat. We did sell within a couple of weeks of listing and that was probably at the low point in the market a few years ago.


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## Oregonian (Oct 4, 2011)

I would like to thank Mal Reynolds for his insight and contribution to this thread regarding the Valiant 40 and Fast Passage 39. Just by coincidence, I too have talked personally with Francis Stokes and Ev Smith regarding their crossings on their Valiants in the 1976 OSTAR. Both men told me the same story. Both men had serious problems with their Valiants. Maybe the Hull to Bulkhead separation was only 3" inches? Ev Smith talked directly to Bob Perry before and after the race. Perry was very angrily informed of the problem by Ev Smith. Perry said "...that is just silly. 6"? Total BS" My response is that Mal Reynolds gave a good accounting of the situation and that Perry either has a bad memory, is lieing, or is full of BS himself. HE has, in fact, called other posts BS simply because he did not like what was said. Not because it was in error.
In support of Valiant I can say that the company made good on Ev Smith's boat and almost certainly corrected the problem on future boats. Both boats involved were early production models. As mentioned by Mal Reynolds, Mr Stokes got rid of his Valiant and bought a Fast Passage 39. Ev Smith got rid of his Valiant and bought a Choy Lee 41.
Thankyou


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

I stand by what I said. As I recall Franncis was the first production boat to finish that race. Oregonian is making things up. He has no idea what Ev Smith and I discussed. He was not present. 

More Valiant 40's have circumnavigated than the total number of Fast Passages built., Draw your own conclusions.

You can be angry and bitter all you like OR but you can't change reality. At this point it just doesn't matter. Valiant had a great run and I am very proud to have been the designer.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Oregon,

Assuming the issues you described are correct to the two boats. There are two people per say potential at fault. The designer, or the builder. Or some combo there of. 

If the designer did not design or take into account some of the stresses etc that go into how a boat is used. Issues as described could/would be the designers fault. 

If the builder decided to do a short cut on the designers specs, and issues occurred, you have the builder at fault.

Or, you could have the builder trying to save $$, do a short cut, with potentially the designer saying how one could do this in a cheaper cost fashion, still be some what strong, but not handle this type of environment. both approve of the change. Issues occur. Both at fault. 

Then there could be thing in between, such as the resin folks not putting enough hardener in the resin, so the resin is not as strong as it should be. There were plenty of now known issues with the resins at the time. A bad batch of resin not curing correctly may have caused some of the issues. There is plenty of blisters from that time frame on many brands of boats, Valiants do have the known issues. Certainly not Bob's or any designers fault from that period.

Cheap supplied parts, fasteners etc, that fail before they should......still fault of builder, but at the same time. something the builder may not have known about it until a failure occurred. 

While I have not been in the boat building industry, I have been in the home building landscape industries for 30 some odd years. I have a design degree, along with do the building part. I have seen all the above occur in my field. It would not surprise me that something as I described occurred on those two early boats. Being as neither of us was there at the time, to blame one and not the other is wrong. As it could be an issue with either party.

Also at the end as you said. Uniflight the builder or one of the builders of the Valiant made the boat right. Obviously something was wrong, why or how......we will probably never know. Other than many seem to like the boat. I'm sure the other brands are good too when used as designed.

Marty


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

People interested should do some research on the conditions of that race. The conditions were very severe and many boats were seriously beat up. Francis told me that he thought that if he had running backstays he could have won the race. I had been promoting runners for some time. That's what I remember of my many conversations with him. Francis is a very good sailor and a great guy.

Of course he raced a Fast Passage the next time. He was the regional dealer for the boats. They were good boats. I like them. But they only built a small handfull while they built hundreds of Valiants. Bill Pinkney was the fist black American to solo circumnavigate , all Capes. He sailed a Valiant 40. Mark Schraeder did a solo circumnavigation in a Valiant 40 and then he did it again in a Valiant 47. It's all well documented. Were the Valiants "perfect". No, but history shows that they certainly were "good enough".

OR getting all bent out of shape about it now, 37 years later, doesn't alter anything. Time to move onto my latest project, the Four Carbon Cutters Project. One client, four custom boats.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

I've been around sailing since before the Valiant 40's appeared and I've only ever heard two bad things about them - the cabin top is too boxy, which even Bob agrees with  and the Hetron fire retardant resin Uniflite used caused some severe blistering problems for the portion of the run it was used for.

Until now I have never heard word one about any sort of structural problems from poor construction - sprung bulkheads and so forth.

The fact that they were in continuous production for something like 40 years would tend to confirm their quality.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Jon: I think like most boats, Hetron resin episode aside, the V-40 in its early days may have had some issues with how the bulkheads were tabbed. I never did agree with Uniflytes method of installing the bulkheads and it took till we got the build moved to Texas to correct that issue. But many of the old Unifltye boats are still sailing the world and doing just fine. I have never heard of even an old V-40 debilitated by structural issues. 

Yes, the cabin trunk is too boxy. When I saw the first molded deck I thought "Did I really draw it like that?" I checked the drawings and yes, I did. I designed a second deck with more shape to the house and Valiant polled the owners group and made the decision to stick with the boxy house. But in my defense, I was a kid, 28 years old and I had much to learn. I was not born with the skills I have today. I learned them the hard way. Most of what I learned about deck shapes and design I learned from studying the C&C 39. Still my very favorite deck and , to pull this full circle, very close to the deck you see on the Fast Passage. 

If someone asks me "Is the Valiant capable of going,,,,,?" I say, "Yes, there is nothing that you can do in a Valiant that hasn't been already done many times over." Having been an owner of one for several years I can tell you it is an extremely pleasant boat to sail. Like pulling on your favorite pair of old Levis. 

I think the Valiant hold the record for the longest production run ever for a cruising boat. Can't argue with success. Well, you can but in the end you look a bit foolish or uninformed or both.


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## vroberts129 (Dec 4, 2016)

I have a Downeast 38 and agree with most of what Argyle said. Mine has been repowered with a 35 hp Yanmar diesel. I dont have issues backing. I have a lot of experience on large power boats. I disagree with the negative comments above on construction. My boat is a 1975 and has no issues topside or the hull. I think these boats are very well made and I am fond of the deck core material. It is aeronautical grade light and strong. I dont like large windows on any sailboat. Getting ready to take my boat to Cuba.....from St. Pete...


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## NorthCoastJoe (Dec 5, 2016)

Just got a Downeaster 38, anyone who had one still looking on here let me know, I would like to talk.


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## SV Siren (Mar 8, 2013)

NorthCoastJoe said:


> Just got a Downeaster 38, anyone who had one still looking on here let me know, I would like to talk.


It might be better to start your own thread..you might get better results. :grin


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