# What range of heel angles do you consider optimum?



## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

I think my boat is initially tender, but then seems to take a set around 30 degrees (close hauled to beam reach). I've been trying to sail her at less than 25 degrees heel. 

What heel angle do you try to stay within? 

At what angle is a knockdown becoming a risk?

At 30-35 degrees there is NOT excessive weather helm.

I guess I am thinking that I should learn to sail her at greater angles of heel, rather than always reducing sail to stay within 25 degrees. 

This is an older, IOR-inspired design with moderate beam (10ft) for her length of 31ft. The hull is also rather round so there is not as much form stability as with a newer boat.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

Enough heel to achieve hull speed. If you are not sailing at hull speed, you need more sail. Upwind, my boat is at about 20-30 degrees to hit hull speed.

Here is 6.7 knots on a Pearson 28 (24 foot waterline) at about 25 degrees:


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

On my current boat if I'm hitting 20 degrees I thinking about reefing, on my last the same was about 30 degrees. That is difference between a 1988 and 2001 boat design!


far as what "optimum" is think I would consider than to be 0 degrees


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Different hull shapes want different amounts of heel. Optimum for one guy, isn't optimum for you.

30 seems a little extreme, even for an IOR wagon, but I don't know doodly-squat. All I know, is that my Pearson 30 is "in the groove" at 20 degrees.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

this is completely boat design specific, absolutely no way to give a middle ground angle here

a tender alberg boat design doesnt have the same angle as an ior, likweise the ior boat isnt going to have the same angle as a new beamy stern clorox box and likweise that boat isnt going to heel the same as an open 60

horses for courses

I will say this...test your boat, acheive hull speed and any angle or heel after that will be useless or power "wasted" if you will.

BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT if you have a boat with big overhangs you actually get better as you heel more as water line increases....but then

etc..etc..etc...


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

It also depends on sea condition, how wet you want to get, and the undeniable fact that it really FEELS good to have the gunwale in the water Kidding aside, I find that getting the right amount of sail up is the first element in the calculation. My Alberg wants to get somewhere near 20 degrees before it gets in the groove but that *has* to happen with the correct amount of canvas.


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## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

The thing is that hull speed changes with heel because most waterlines increase. That being said, some increase more than others, so, as you say, it is boat design specific.



christian.hess said:


> this is completely boat design specific, absolutely no way to give a middle ground angle here
> 
> a tender alberg boat design doesnt have the same angle as an ior, likweise the ior boat isnt going to have the same angle as a new beamy stern clorox box and likweise that boat isnt going to heel the same as an open 60
> 
> ...


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## capt vimes (Dec 2, 2013)

I do not understand the question....
Do you have all some sort of pendulars or electronical devise on board which give you a reading about your heel angle?

Trust your sences and the feel on the helm...
If you feel too much weatherhelm - reduce sail or change trim...
If the wind gets gusty - reduce sail...

30 deg of heel seems pretty excessive to me, just remember:
The more upright the sails, the more efficient.
Knockdowns happen due to squalls, strong gusts or freak waves...


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

jaja I forgot the old flat is fast saying...its true for a reason

we called saling at high heel angles when kids cowabunga sailing...an absolute blast to dunking the sides in the water, green water on the windows, all over splashing like crazy

fun fun

however its was slow and inffective as hell...


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

albergs and the like are famous for being initially tender to 10-15 degrees and then love to stay at 20-25 like a freight train..and stay there

thats just one boat design example...

chose your poison


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

capt vimes said:


> I do not understand the question....
> Do you have all some sort of pendulars or electronical devise on board which give you a reading about your heel angle?


Yes, a very expensive device :


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## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

Yes.












capt vimes said:


> I do not understand the question....
> Do you have all some sort of pendulars or electronical devise on board which give you a reading about your heel angle?
> 
> Trust your sences and the feel on the helm...
> ...


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

That's nice than mine. Jealous now!


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

BubbleheadMd said:


> Different hull shapes want different amounts of heel. Optimum for one guy, isn't optimum for you.
> 
> 30 seems a little extreme, even for an IOR wagon, but I don't know doodly-squat. All I know, is that my Pearson 30 is "in the groove" at 20 degrees.


So we were in "the slot" yesterday, and it was gusting 30 kts apparent. We had a double-reefed main, and the 83% jib up. The heel angle was up to 30 degrees. My instinct was to reduce sail, but the problem is that I hate furling the jib partially, because of the lousy shape that results.

This is a frequent issue I encounter with this masthead rig, which is the huge jib with no easy way to reduce the size of it.


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## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

MarkSF said:


> So we were in "the slot" yesterday, and it was gusting 30 kts apparent. We had a double-reefed main, and the 83% jib up. The heel angle was up to 30 degrees. My instinct was to reduce sail, but the problem is that I hate furling the jib partially, because of the lousy shape that results.
> 
> This is a frequent issue I encounter with this masthead rig, which is the huge jib with no easy way to reduce the size of it.


When it pipes up, we do better to keep more main and less jib. I always used to do it the way you do, but I have found the opposite to be better.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

I guess that OPs Bristol and my Bristol must have very different hull shapes - certainly we have very different displacements. We seem to be in the groove around 20°. More than that and everything feels like we are just too stressed. When I was young I used to think it was really cool to bury the rail. It felt like we were flying, but we weren't. Now we just do what feels right and gives the best speed.


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

jzk : Interesting, I'll try that next time...


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

slightly ior ish with small mains you cut with the jib and power with it too...so your better off getting maximum useable power off the jib in those winds and if needed spill some main...

however 2 reefs in a small ior main means you are pretty much as depowered there without being useless so get the optimum jib for those winds...

having said that its one of the reasons I dislike furlers...especially in high winds I just dont like them...as you get a bag with very little angle and shape not to mention very bad angle to the wind, and its very high up causing more than desired heel for the given winds...

anywhoo


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## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

That and a bunch more leeway than one probably realizes.



killarney_sailor said:


> I guess that OPs Bristol and my Bristol must have very different hull shapes - certainly we have very different displacements. We seem to be in the groove around 20°. More than that and everything feels like we are just too stressed. When I was young I used to think it was really cool to bury the rail. It felt like we were flying, but we weren't. Now we just do what feels right and gives the best speed.


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## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

I am not saying that a furled jib produces the best shape, but consider this. A main can handle a much broader range of wind speeds, where as a jib has a narrower range. Having more main and less jib gives me the ability to not be overpowered in the gusts, and I can point higher than if I had more jib and less main. With the track I can shape the jib to a very acceptable, but certainly not perfect shape.



christian.hess said:


> slightly ior ish with small mains you cut with the jib and power with it too...so your better off getting maximum usable power off the jib in those winds and if needed spill some main...
> 
> however 2 reefs in a small ior main means you are pretty much as depowered there without being useless so get the optimum jib for those winds...
> 
> ...


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

Yes I'll definitely be trying that next time. I did kind of form the opinion that, if you're going to partially furl the jib, it's best to take a lot out of it instead of a little. Furling it down just a little results in a lot of bag, but taking out a load seems to result in a flatish sail again.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

jzk said:


> I am not saying that a furled jib produces the best shape, but consider this. A main can handle a much broader range of wind speeds, where as a jib has a narrower range. Having more main and less jib gives me the ability to not be overpowered in the gusts, and I can point higher than if I had more jib and less main. With the track I can shape the jib to a very acceptable, but certainly not perfect shape.


it depends on boat design

you see a boat with a foresail that bares more driving force(as a percentage of overall sail area) is the one you trim and get sail shape and size for best performance...first...

an ior boat back in the day had a gazillion jibs too chose from...all for optimum performance depending on wind and sea state....

a boat that does well with the main as the main drive force you would adjust that more

like a folkboat that can be driven by main only and do just fine...

so it depends on the boat

a good way to test if your overpowered by your foresail is to depower your main....

if your main makes little to no difference you know you have to adjust the foresail...

also remember its the jib in most cases that creates the necessary angle to cut against the wind...so upwind its of utmost importance to get the jib, size, sheeting angle and shape correct...


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

MarkSF said:


> Yes I'll definitely be trying that next time. I did kind of form the opinion that, if you're going to partially furl the jib, it's best to take a lot out of it instead of a little. Furling it down just a little results in a lot of bag, but taking out a load seems to result in a flatish sail again.


too flat...they actually become riding sails


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

You ain't leaning till someone is screaming!


It really depends on what you are trying to do, are you racing and need the maximum speed, or just out for the day with the significant other? For maximum speed it might be good to do some testing with a GPS and see what works best. A good hand held GPS with speed over ground can give you a good idea, even a smart phone will work fine. For a day sail with the SWMO it is best to do what makes them happy! Every boat is different, and every sailor/crew has different tolerances. If it meant having the family out on the boat, and it takes 15 min more to get to the destination, so be it. I would rather make my crew/guests/family happy than worry about the last 2 tenths of a knot.

And as far as a "knock down" I don't think you have to worry too much at the angles you are talking about. It may not have a lot of form stability, but the Bristol is not under ballasted. I would think you would feel it long before you were in any real danger.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

During Seafever season ONE i really needed to get a feel for how the boat would balance out in different winds BEFORE it was really IMPORTANT

IT pretty mush likes a balanced jib and main because if your gonna helm for 10 hours you really don't want to be fighting



The Cal really likes a LOTof back-stay and will have all kinds of difficulty with weather helm if you just forget to pull that line a bit



This is pretty much its normal heel as it has ZERO form stability BUT the 3500# of lead locks it up about right there and if you really reef late the rail will get wet


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## Sailormon6 (May 9, 2002)

I don't measure the angle of heel to determine whether the boat is heeling excessively. I use the knotmeter. If it is visually apparent that the boat is beginning to heel alot, then I trim the sails to allow it to stand up more, and then watch the knotmeter to see if it speeds up.

For a sailor, the ultimate goal is almost always to point high and foot fast, not to sail at a certain angle of heel. If you reduce the angle of heel, but the boat slows down and doesn't point as high, what have you accomplished? Your knotmeter will tell you more about your sailing efficiency than your inclinometer. Keep your eye on the prize.


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## paulk (Jun 2, 2000)

Every boat is different. A Bristol 31.1 might perform better upwind at about 25º of heel than at 15º. Bristols tend to be narrow boats that do better when they heel more. Heeling might help reduce wetted surface and improve boatspeed. On the other hand, maybe 15º is actually more effective than 25º since increasing the degree of heel might also increase leeway (your keel isn't sticking down as much when you're heeling: the more you heel, the more you're sliding to leeward.) YOU have to figure out what works best and what the most EFFECTIVE combination is. Reefing the main might reduce heel and speed, but increase your actual course made good to windward despite the slower speed. Leaving the main up, heeling more, but going faster may be the most effective route for your boat. How much heel works best may depend upon windspeed, boatspeed, and heading. There's no easy answer. That's what makes sailboat racing different from Golf. .


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## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

I get most of that. But just try it. Try going with a full main and reef/reduce jib first.



christian.hess said:


> it depends on boat design
> 
> you see a boat with a foresail that bares more driving force(as a percentage of overall sail area) is the one you trim and get sail shape and size for best performance...first...
> 
> ...


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

jzk said:


> I get most of that. But just try it. Try going with a full main and reef/reduce jib first.


I have..on a folkboat...many dinghies...etc that are main driven and quite good on main only

not all boats react the same...


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## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

Not all boats react the same. So try it on your boat to see how it reacts. You will be glad you did.



christian.hess said:


> I have..on a folkboat...many dinghies...etc that are main driven and quite good on main only
> 
> not all boats react the same...


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

dude arent we saying the same thing? jajaj Im confused now...Im agreeing with you...I have done it is what Im saying as well

I was a sailing instructor and team coach down here for el salvador, racing dinghies and j24 etc...

im not arguing for arguments sake here, we are in essence saying the same things...

my current boat is an islander 36, ior design foresail driven masthead rig..as soon as I get the boat done I will try it...on this boat see what it likes best

but judging from the islander 36 website, owners, racers and those in the bay area where I used to sail and there is a big fleet, my boat will love foresail changes and perfect jibe size for the wind...cause the little mainsail isnt the big decision maker here...jajaja


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## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

So your boat with a little main likes headsail changes when it pipes up. My boat has a huge main, and it also likes headsail changes when it pipes up, but I do this by furling the jib.



christian.hess said:


> dude arent we saying the same thing? jajaj Im confused now...Im agreeing with you...I have done it is what Im saying as well
> 
> I was a sailing instructor and team coach down here for el salvador, racing dinghies and j24 etc...
> 
> ...


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

I keep my 100% jib on the furler. Having the big genny on is nice for light wind but for most conditions of 15 knots or so, the smaller headsail seems to be much more efficient than a partially furled up 160 genny. I guess I've made the decision that I'd rather have a sail fully set when wind is blowing than one that can give more speed in lighter wind. If I was not singlehanded and had a crew to change sails frequently, it would probably be most efficient to have a good selection of hank-on headsails. With a furler, it is a compromise one way or the other unless you're willing/able to change sails.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

jzk said:


> So your boat with a little main likes headsail changes when it pipes up. My boat has a huge main, and it also likes headsail changes when it pipes up, but I do this by furling the jib.


ok lets leave it at this

tune the sail that has the biggest impact on boat performance...I guess thats what we can agree on...

usually that will be the sail with the biggest sail area percentage comparative to overall sail area of the boat



cheers


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

smurphny said:


> I keep my 100% jib on the furler. Having the big genny on is nice for light wind but for most conditions of 15 knots or so, the smaller headsail seems to be much more efficient than a partially furled up 160 genny. I guess I've made the decision that I'd rather have a sail fully set when wind is blowing than one that can give more speed in lighter wind. If I was not singlehanded and had a crew to change sails frequently, it would probably be most efficient to have a good selection of hank-on headsails. With a furler, it is a compromise one way or the other unless you're willing/able to change sails.


there are few things I like better than a perfectly set jib or foresail for the condition

I used to own an old islander excalibur 26(the baby cal 40) made in the 60s and that little boat beleive it or not came with 8 foresails...and just 1 main

these boats are famous for being baby cal 40s and surf downwind like nothing else, despite being old and one of the first flexi flier production boats if you will

in 5 knots it had a huge 160 or so drifter very light
8-10 a nice big genny
10 a mylar racing genny
10-12 a 130 kevlar doo dad
15 myar 110
above 15 it had a very nice club jib that I could mount up or a 100 percenter
above 15 there was a smallish jib around 100 or a bit less and it was heavily built and stitched...
and storm

this sail could go all the way to 25 knots plus without changing and cut like a knife...it was an awesome blade...

anywhoo

on a furler about about 5 or 6 of those sails could not be acheived properly...

crew makes all the difference really or not if you like to play around...


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## Dave_E (Aug 7, 2013)

Optimum sailing performance or the wild side?  My big girl goes straight to 20 without a thought and then stiffens up like a board. Also best performance at 20. But as mentioned, that's this hull.


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