# New RayMarine SPX Autopilots



## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

Our mid-90s vintage Raymarine autopilot (wheelpilot) has been on the fritz. While inquiring with Raymarine tech support about service and/or replacement, the technician mentioned that a new line of autopilots is being released this spring, called the Smart Pilot X-Series ("SPX"). Apparently, they are on display at the Miami Boat Show beginning today (anyone see them?)

Our ST4000 series wheelpilot does not have a rudder position sensor. The S1 series that replaced the ST4000 has a rudder position sensor, which improved the performance of the earlier generation like ours. Now they are eliminating the rudder sensor completely, and incorporating the "G" feature ("G" for "rate gyro sensor") into all the new autopilots, including the tiller and wheel pilots.

I mention this because there has been a fair amount of discussion concerning autopilots in general, and about RayMarine Wheelpilots specifically, in recent months. I have no connection to RM, I'm just potentially in the market for a replacement and thought I'd share this info.

A press release can be found at the link below, but I have also excerpted relevant portions:



> Each SmartPilot X-Series course computer is equipped with a built in rate gyro sensor, which enables SmartPilot Advanced Steering Technology (AST™) software to intelligently monitor vessel yaw and anticipate course changes. SmartPilot AST software then produces razor sharp course keeping without overshoot or instability. The SmartPilot X Series course computers offer additional capabilities that make it Raymarine's smartest autopilot to date...
> 
> The SmartPilot X Series Autopilots come in a range of sizes and configurations to fit every type of boat - from fishing boats to world class racing yachts, as well as sub-30-foot lightweight sports boats and tiller-steered craft:
> 
> ...


http://www.raymarine.com/Article.aspx?SITE=1&SECTION=43&PAGE=860&CONTENT=10531#CBM10531


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Thanks John for the info.

- CD


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

Also,

There is a PDF brochure for the new series. At pages 4 and 5 of the brochure you can read about the new Tiller and WheelPilots, respectively:

http://www.raymarine.com/submittedfiles/2008-Brochures/SmartPilot-X-Series_brochure.pdf


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

What in the heck is going on with this company? The S-1 tillerpilot and S-1 wheelpilot are less than ONE year out on the market! Now they've got a better idea?

The rate "gyro" or accelerometer is a good idea. BF and I saw an outfit offering one, which they were erroneously calling a gyro-pilot, at StrictlySail-Chicago. Neither are gyro compasses.

I'd take the "learning" or "adaptability" capabilities with a large grain of salt. I've been listening to such claims for almost 20 years, on units of much larger size and capability, designed for ships, and inevitably the manually entered settings for rudder rate and gain have proven far and awy superior to the "automatic" or adaptive mode. Most, in that mode, end up over-steering significantly or, in a blow, get blown right off course before they can "adapt". Even in conditions where the sea conditions become progressively worse, the adaptability aspect was questionable. And normal usage does not usually allow for that build up of data anyway. You normally change course and then put her on the "iron mike". Each time the adaptive system has to reconfigure.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

What in the heck is going on with this company? The S-1 tillerpilot and S-1 wheelpilot are less than ONE year out on the market! Now they've got a better idea?


Sailaway, how does this not surprise?


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Rick,
This is the kind of S*** that just flat out pisses me off! I mean, I'm about spittin' mad! I WAITED to buy the S1 tillerpilot last year. It was supposed to be available in January but wasn't until March, IIRC. If I'd been at a car dealership and been interested in the largest motor available, and bought the 5.0 liter, only to find out that they were coming out with a 7.0 liter the following year, and the salesman knew it-I'd have gone it and punched him in the nose!

Unless I hear something really good, really soon, that's the last Raymarine product I buy. Period.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

sailaway21 said:


> Unless I hear something really good, really soon, that's the last Raymarine product I buy. Period.


Gents, this post was intended to inform, not irritate!! Sorry about that.

All I can offer by way of hope, Sailaway, is that the RM tech rep hinted to the effect some older systems could be upgraded to the newer X-5 corepacks, at a reasonable charge. He said this would be easier to fanagle after the new X-5 had been available for half a year or so, when they would begin getting some returns that they could "re-manufacture" and exchange for older units at a modest price.



sailaway21 said:


> I'd take the "learning" or "adaptability" capabilities with a large grain of salt. I've been listening to such claims for almost 20 years, on units of much larger size and capability, designed for ships, and inevitably the manually entered settings for rudder rate and gain have proven far and awy superior to the "automatic" or adaptive mode. Most, in that mode, end up over-steering significantly or, in a blow, get blown right off course before they can "adapt". Even in conditions where the sea conditions become progressively worse, the adaptability aspect was questionable. And normal usage does not usually allow for that build up of data anyway. You normally change course and then put her on the "iron mike". Each time the adaptive system has to reconfigure.


That is likely because their algorithms are somewhat unsophisticated -- probably no exponential least forgetting, etc.

---


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

And people ask why I want to buy 10-year-old ComNav and W-H autopilot designs.

I would rather have something that wandered five degrees with a track record on fishing boats in the ocean than the latest piece of yacht bling on the market. 

Raymarine makes some good stuff, but they are way too interested in being the Microsoft of the recreational marine electronics world, and consequently seem to treat their customers with the same lack of respect. For the record, I have an eight year old Raymarine plotter (no map cartridges for it, just a super GPS, really) and it works fine...but it came with the boat.


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

I'm not attempting to shoot the messenger, John. But, I'm sure that if my daughter came through the door to "inform" me that she was pregnant she wouldn't expect me to be thrilled by the notion that my "cost" at adapting to the idea would be managable to me.

"some older systems" I've still got the freakin' box it came in!!!

Oh well. Keep us posted on anything further. My above comments on Raymarine stand, absent any further exculpatory evidence.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Unfortunately, marine electronics are much like computers in that they're surpassed by newer models rather quickly. It is much the same as buying a new computer... you can wait... or you can bite the bullet and buy a machine and start using it. Is the amount of time you've used the autopilot before the next new version comes out worth not having waited for the new features that the new version has... that is a very subjective call.


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Hey Dog!
With respect and understanding for your point, I'd offer that it was hardly common knowledge that there was going to be yet a newer version less than one year down the pike and I'm really not sure how, under any usage, less than a year's use makes up for the fact that the manufacturer deliberately withheld what they obviously knew-well in advance. I am cognizant that I may not have all of the facts in the matter, yet it seems painfully obvious that the upgrade is not going to involve the simple addition of a single component-you need the SX-70 head as well as what I don't have the stomach to pursue further at this point. I assume that you're not implying that YOU wouldn't have felt taken advantage of.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I can understand why you're pissed off...and personally, I don't blame you... and I would be pretty pissed off in your place, had the same thing happened to me. 

But, you do have to understand that the marine electronics industry is evolving rather quickly, and they may not have known that they'd be able to develop the SPX model as quickly as they were able to. Gyro sensors were previously limited to rather large, complicated and expensive systems previously, and the advances in gyro technology, like a laser-based gyro-compass have come along recently and were not previously foreseen. You are making the assumption that they knew the SPX series was going to be coming out in a year's time... which may not necessarily be the case.


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## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

*SD thanks for the timely update*

for me anyway .I was just asking about them on another thread...Sorry Sway I know how you feel. Same thing happened with my Garmin GPS...Maybe you could work something out with your supplier at cost or to upgrade at something...

Regardless are you happy with your current unit? if so should not be a big deal. I'm sure they will service them for its life span. I would hope so any way. The old system almost sounds better anyway.

I have the same apprehensions with the TacTick instruments..Are they going to change them next week and make your 4K investment obsolete?


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## brak (Jan 5, 2007)

I wouldn't worry. I just bought and installed an S1G system on my boat. It worked just fine and I sure hope to get a few years of use out of it. Who cares what else is available. When time comes to replace (if ever) - something even newer and shinier will be there. 

They bring out new car models every year, you know.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

What Ray did to me and a bunch of other plotter owners is abandon CMAP-NT mapping in favor of Navionics. Now if I want to upgrade to a new/better plotter...I have to throw out all my charts and buy new ones. They lost my business forever with that decision. There are lots of other choices out there and despite making a lot of products that work well...I'll go with a company that cares about their customers every time.


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## brak (Jan 5, 2007)

Didn't know about the maps. I chose Garmin for my chart product  Their previous series seem like the best mix of user friendliness and useability.

That said, wouldn't you want to replace old charts anyway after a few years? Perhaps not for all areas, but definitely for most where new charts are available?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Slightly OT, but this is much the reason I stuck by Nikon when I went autofocus, and then digital. I can use lenses from my original Nikkormat FT2 circa 1974 on my latest camera. Granted, I lose some features, but it still works. 

Besides, I figure Canon had to be lying to its customers for all that time, since they used to claim the FD mount was far superior to the Nikon F-style bayonet mount, since it didn't involve wearing the mating surfaces, using an external locking collar... and then they went to a bayonet mount system for their EOS cameras.... Can't have it both ways... *if the FD mount was so superior, why did they go to a bayonet mount for their new camera lines??? *



camaraderie said:


> What Ray did to me and a bunch of other plotter owners is abandon CMAP-NT mapping in favor of Navionics. Now if I want to upgrade to a new/better plotter...I have to throw out all my charts and buy new ones. They lost my business forever with that decision. There are lots of other choices out there and despite making a lot of products that work well...I'll go with a company that cares about their customers every time.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

Sailaway et al,

I don't know for certain, but I got the impression that you would not have to upgrade your control head to the SX-70 version. I believe SX-70 is an optional (+$$) component of the new systems, which still use the ST-6000 control head as standard. To upgrade the previous generation systems, I think all you'd have to do is swap the corepack for the new X-5 (and maybe disconnect your rudder position sensor if you have one?).

I feel your pain. I too am one of those people who gets irked when I buy a new product only to discover it is being phased out. But as for boycotting RM, where else can a sailor look for a reasonably priced WheelPilot system? The only other offering I'm aware of is Simrad, and there are plenty of folks that feel the same way about their products. The belowdeck systems will not easily fit on our boat (cannot give-up that storage space) and are more than double the cost.

I'm not looking for a "passagemaking" autopilot system, just one that can steer the boat occasionally for relatively short periods of time. [For serious passagemaking I would invest in a windvane.] By the way, when interfaced with wind instruments the new RM SPX systems can steer to an apparent wind angle (like a windvane) rather than a compass course if that is your preference. That sounded like a good feature to me, but maybe it's nothing new?


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

I bought the S1 wheel pilot, and at the time, the gyro was an option. You still got the rudder sensor though. What I didn't like, after I bought it, was that the gyro function was part of the hype, without clearly stating it was an option. Perhaps I didn't read it right, but that was the impression I got.

I'm happy enough with what I got, but the gyro (an expensive add-on) would be nice.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

PBzeer said:


> I bought the S1 wheel pilot, and at the time, the gyro was an option. You still got the rudder sensor though. What I didn't like, after I bought it, was that the gyro function was part of the hype, without clearly stating it was an option. Perhaps I didn't read it right, but that was the impression I got.
> 
> I'm happy enough with what I got, but the gyro (an expensive add-on) would be nice.


PBZeer, Interesting you mention this. When I contacted RM, one of my questions was whether I could configure an S1 Wheelpilot that had the "G" corepack. (The short answer is "yes", but it takes a little fanagling since they are no longer bundled that way, as they optionally used to be). It was during that conversation when the tech rep mentioned the forthcoming SPX systems and hinted that this would be a better option for me since it gets rid of the requirement for the rudder position sensor (which brings the cost down a bit).


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

Also, it was June or July of that year, before you could even get one. I ended up getting mine off of Sailnet, at a nice discount btw.


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## brak (Jan 5, 2007)

IMHO, a rudder position sensor is pretty much a requirement for autosteering. Otherwise they try to guess rudder position based on boat movement and position of steering wheel (unless they have a built in sensor in direct drive). This is dangerous, in my opinion. If any of this information is off - at best you get bad steering, at worst - damage to steering system or autopilot. In wheel-installed motor unit - the clutch will probably burn out once it hits a rudder stop or some such, but if you have hydraulic (like I do) - well, I don't want to think about that.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Brak...most if not all of the mapping companies provide low cost updates and/or clubs to allow affordable updates of the charts you have purchased so it is a BIG deal to throw away thousands of $$ in electronics charts.
Kinda like Microsoft moving to a new operating system and telling people that their old programs won't work with the new system.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

brak said:


> IMHO, a rudder position sensor is pretty much a requirement for autosteering. Otherwise they try to guess rudder position based on boat movement and position of steering wheel (unless they have a built in sensor in direct drive). This is dangerous, in my opinion. If any of this information is off - at best you get bad steering, at worst - damage to steering system or autopilot. In wheel-installed motor unit - the clutch will probably burn out once it hits a rudder stop or some such, but if you have hydraulic (like I do) - well, I don't want to think about that.


They claim that the "Smart Rudder Sense" technology takes care of this problem. However, I noticed that the SPX below-deck systems have an option to install a separate rudder position sensor. So that begs the question "why?" if the Smart Rudder Sense software truly makes it unnecessary?


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## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

*The rudder sensor*

is the information gathering tool I was referring to to Sailaway when I said not to worry the old system sounds better anyway. Not all upgrades or new models "improve" products but actually detract from them in the chase for company profits and ease of manufacturing...some times old is better..( new thread maybe..)

Cam...I understand better now...But Garmin did some thing similar but Less devastating...for us early c-map users who purchased hundreds of dollars worth of maps...they decided to load them installed now...a great bargain for the first time buyer but we basically got shafted paying off the original software development costs so they can now give it away...They didn't offer us any incentives or compensation either.. Some times having the latest and greatest hurts you in the end...and some times having outdated and obsolete stuff that cant get repaired hurts us also..There is no silver bullet companey..


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Stillraining-

Garmin doesn't use C-map...they have their own brand, which has always been called Bluechart, and the latest version is BlueChart G2. 

The earliest models may have used C-map charting, but none of the units in the last 5-6 years have AFAIK.


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## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

*My Mistake*

I am one of those guys that knows what I mean but doesnt know what I mean.. ....But the example is the same..we bought all this stuff ( Bluechart...thanks ) for big bucks and now its given away...


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

The difference with Garmin is that they load a full map complement on some units but you can still buy and use their G charts for older units and the CURRENT units that they sell without built in charts AND for other world areas that are not covered by the Americas charts they preload on some models. The models with the built in charts are more expensive than the ones without them. Since technology moves on...I don't complain about things being given away for free, or prices coming down as long as they don't leave us old customers out in the cold. 
The REAL reason that charts started being included cheaply is that the USA made their electronic chart data FREE for all comers and memory chip prices came down and storage capability go way bigger. I think you'll find little change if you want to buy charts for any other part of the world!


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## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

*Have to concede there*

But it is still agravating...So cant you find old maps for yours? How often do the aids to navigation on charts really change anyway? You can get the changes from the USGS and physically move any cans or buoys or add or deleate data that pertain to your cruising areas within the software...A pain I agree but not worth throwing out a perfectly good plotter in my mind... IMHO


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

SR...C-Map is still a very viable format and many plotters are availble that use their carts. My point was that if you buy the whole Raymarine...Sea Talk thing and have everything talk to each other and then want to upgrade just two years later...you find you have to get a different mfr. chart plotter or throw away your charts. I'm not throwing away anything...I have no issues I can't easily solve. My point is simply that Raymarine doesn't care about its' customers and I will not buy anything from them again...despite them making many fine products (at high prices!).


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Thanks to all for the comisseration and I'll endeavor to quit my cryin' now. (g) 

More back on topic, I also would be sceptical of any type of "auto-sense" for the rudder position indicator. And my previous comments reveal my past experiences with "auto-adapt" functions. In my experience with these types of functions, you need stable conditions to "re-set" their functions is the computer talks itself into paralysis or is unable to adapt quickly enough. One thing the short handed sailor is going to want is an auto-pilot that he can use in rough conditions, those being where he'll really need it to take the helm. If the RM does not come with manual gain and damping controls for the rudder movement, relying solely on auto-adapt, I'd be leary of purchasing it. They have not been able to make the technology work on large ships, equipped with real gyrocompasses, so I'd be sceptical about doing any better on a yacht with just a rate of turn indicator. This might be one of those items that it would be best to wait for feedback from early purchasers before committing one's self.


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## brak (Jan 5, 2007)

JohnRPollard said:


> They claim that the "Smart Rudder Sense" technology takes care of this problem. However, I noticed that the SPX below-deck systems have an option to install a separate rudder position sensor. So that begs the question "why?" if the Smart Rudder Sense software truly makes it unnecessary?


I am sure they claim that. And with a good algorithm and a stable and properly working steering system - it can work. But that's the thing - when the system stops being stable is when you still want it to work.

As an onwer of a boat with hydraulic system (which is also pretty idiosyncratic - takes more turns to go one way than the other etc) - I really appreciate how Raymarine autopilot can steer my boat on a perfect course, while I honestly can't do the same. But that rudder angle indicator is what makes it work - take that out and no algorithm will help there. Mechanical systems will fare a bit better, but still - either system KNOWS where your rudder is or it does not.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

brak said:


> I am sure they claim that. And with a good algorithm and a stable and properly working steering system - it can work. But that's the thing - when the system stops being stable is when you still want it to work.
> 
> As an onwer of a boat with hydraulic system (which is also pretty idiosyncratic - takes more turns to go one way than the other etc) - I really appreciate how Raymarine autopilot can steer my boat on a perfect course, while I honestly can't do the same. But that rudder angle indicator is what makes it work - take that out and no algorithm will help there. Mechanical systems will fare a bit better, but still - either system KNOWS where your rudder is or it does not.


It looks to me like the bigger belowdecks units have the rudder position sensor (RPS) option, so they seem to have kept that available.

As for the new Tillerpilot and Wheel Pilot X-5 systems, sans RPS, maybe you guys that invested in the previous S1 systems got the better deal afterall? Proven technology with the added benefit of the RPS. Maybe your best upgrade is to simply add the "G" corepack, which as I understand it is available "remanufactured" (with full warranty) at a very reasonable price?


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## lsbrodsky (Jul 7, 2000)

*Recall on the Sport Pilot*

Well John, I put the SPX-5 Sport Pilot, wheelpilot on my little RIB this Spring and now they have done a safety recall of the drive. Don't know what is involved yet. In this case, I guess newer is not better.
Larry


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

lsbrodsky said:


> Well John, I put the SPX-5 Sport Pilot, wheelpilot on my little RIB this Spring and now they have done a safety recall of the drive. Don't know what is involved yet. In this case, I guess newer is not better.
> Larry


Thanks for the heads up, Larry.

Any idea if this affects the X-5 Wheelpilots?

EDIT: Found the answer (No). Here's Raymarine's recall notice:

SPX Sportpilot Recall


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## scottyt (Jul 19, 2008)

i wonder if the new SPX is just a x5 with some software turned on. meaning they where working on the software but did not have it perfected yet, so they released it as the x5. or the software for a internal gyro they where working is good to go. 

it could be anything, ie they knew the s1 with the rudder sensor mounting was a problem, they released the x5 as a stop gap


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