# Do you wear a life jacket?



## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

I was thinking about getting a life jacket and I wondered how many people wear them and when. Please discuss other safety devices you find essential.

I have never worn a life jacket sailing but with the new(to me at least) auto inflatable kinds I'm interested. I'm sure most of you have one. Do you like it?

Do you wear your pfd at all times or only in rough conditions. Do you tether yourself to the boat? 

Keep in mind I have never been more than 10-20 miles from land so alot of you will have more experience than I. I'm also now sailing in a cold place and I single hand so I could see great value in a confortable inflatable with tether. If I fell off on rough water I could die. Could. Depends on what the boat decided to do and other factors.


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## Frogwatch (Jan 22, 2011)

I ALWAYS wear my old SOSpender auto inflate jacket. It also has a built in connection for a tether. It still works very well after many years and I re-arm it every 3 years. Today, I proved it works as I had forgotten I was wearing it and bent down to make sure my powerboat was on its trailer while I was standing in waist deep water. Suddenly, "SHOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH" and I felt silly standing there with an inflated jacket. They really work. The small ones for kids were worn without complaint by my kids for years.
On my auto-inflate jacket I have a strobe and my personal EPIRB.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

I put my life jacket on when I leave the car and take it off when I get back to the car.
I have a good auto inflatable mustang with integrated harness but usually just wear a standard type two near coastal.

I am in the extreme minority as far as I can tell.

The fact that I'm not a good swimmer is only a small factor. I doubt if many people can swim effectively fully clothed for more than a few minutes. I doubt if even ten percent of boaters could even tread water in a pool for an hour.
http://floridamaritimelawyer.claris...u-tread-water-about-30-minutes-is-the-max.php

I sail in long island sound. The water temperature is usually too cool for someone to last very long.

If I end up in the water it is probably the end result of more than one thing going wrong. The amount of energy someone expends in just a minute or two during an event would also probably affect their ability to effectively swim.

Swimming in a pool and in open water is not even remotely the same.

Falling off a boat often entails some injury.

I am almost always alone or the only boat handler on board. If I go over I may be on my own for a long time.

Coast guard personnel wear life jackets and they are smarter than me.

ASA schools require everyone to wear life jackets, they are smarter than me.

I want to sent a good example.

The most important reason however is Soundings Magazine.
Soundings is a Long Island Sound boating magazine. At least twice a year for as long as I have been getting it they print the same story with names changed.

It goes something like this:

Carl was 59 years old and a life long boater. He was a member of the fire department until he retired after 20 years service. He was devoted to he boat Summer Sun which he sailed for the last 40 years. Yesterday his boat was found washed up on the noname beach. His body has not been recovered. Carl was not wearing a life vest.

This story runs almost every summer month every year.

Off-shore I wear the mustang and use the harness at night or in gusty conditions.


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## downeast450 (Jan 16, 2008)

Yup! Auto Mustang with harness. Dock to dock. In the canoes, too. Why add needing to swim to survive dealing with whatever put you in the drink. I am a good swimmer but our water is cold. It is terribly inconsiderate to leave your loved ones to deal with your demise because it was too inconvenient to put on your life vest. Is there anyone you care enough about to make the effort to spare them that misery? That is my question to myself.

Down


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## dvuyxx (Jun 23, 2009)

I try to wear my automatic vest when I sail alone. Especially if I leave our river for the open bay.


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## Davenire (May 14, 2012)

When I am on the pier walking down to the boat, I will make sure it is secure (auto Mustang) It has the tether ring built in to the staps. Take it off only when I'm changing clothes.


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## engineer_sailor (Aug 27, 2011)

I wear my Mustang auto with harness, always. First thing I do when I get on the boat. Last thing I do before closing up to go home.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

The inflatables are super comfy. We ALWAYS wear ours when not below. It really doesn't make sense not to.

(PS - If you can comfortably swim 10-20 miles in your waters, you should be fine.)


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

ummmmmm, You do not wear one! WTF! oh well, you have maybe 5-10 min before you might be unconscious in the salish sea waters, so PFD's are there to help the rescuers find you that much quicker! So YES, you should wear one per say. Most of us probably do 110% of the time.

Time to make a trip to WM a block away, assuming you are still in PT, get one of the offshore mustang or equal with a built in safety harness. Then if really rough in the straights or equal, you can tether yourself in.

Marty


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## BarryL (Aug 21, 2003)

Hi,

When I sail along I wear a PFD. When I race I wear one. If I am out with others, and the weather is nice I don't wear one. If the weather gets bad I will put mine on.

I don't have a harness.

BTW it is rare for me to see another boater (sail or power) wearing a PFD. I don't think I have ever seen someone use a tether. I'm mostly a fair weather sailor, so that might explain it.

Barry


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## paul323 (Mar 13, 2010)

Like others, I always wear my Auto Mustang. I use the harness when I am sailing solo, or out of the Golden Gate (which equate to open ocean for me), or in rough weather.

If you have any doubts about this, look at reports of boating accidents and fatalities. In almost every fatality the person was not wearing a lifejacket. Especially among powerboat users, and jetski users.

A life jacket is essential!

As for essential devices, that is a rather open-ended question; it depends on the boat you are in (rowboat, 54 footer, etc). A good place to start is the USCG which mandates minimal safety equipment (e.g. flares, horns, etc). We can suggest others. depending on your situation.....


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## mtitus (Jul 10, 2001)

I ware it aways regardless of weather. Mustang w harness.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

It's your life. If you want to not wear a PFD its up to you. If you've already seen everything and lived everything you intend to then stay the course

Personally I were a mustang auto and am tethered in when by myself all the time when topside. It's the first thing discussed with any guests. 

When with my wife is onboard anyone who gos outside the cockpit does so with a vest on.

Buy a comfortable vest or continue your current path to an eventual tragedy


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## Advocate777 (Sep 28, 2010)

I was recently 5-10 miles off the coast in the Gulf Stream off Miami. On a crew of 4 plus a 'captain' for 6 days sailing in the ocean coatal cruising i was the only one wearing a Pfd. I don't know why the others don't wear one.... I wear it like I wear my pants...it's an automatic given. I have too many people who love me not to take the simple precaution of a Pfd- same reason I wear seatbelts in a car--- for them. Now, if I was alone in life I would not care and I would not wear one. I wear it for others... Not me. Those who don't wear one tend to be loners who are not responsible to anyone. But if you love someone then wear the friggin Pfd already. Just sayin.


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## PaulinVictoria (Aug 23, 2009)

I wear a Mustang HIT all of the time, although I recently also purchased a Spinlock deckvest with integrated harness, leg straps etc for bigger races. During the winter I quite often wear a float suit.


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## downeast450 (Jan 16, 2008)

A conundrum! 

First we purchased two automatic mustangs to make it "easier" to wear them all the time. No excuses! "What do we tell our guests?"... So we purchased two more automatics (without harnesses this time). They are a little less bulky. Strobes for all. There is room in all of them for two hand held pencil flares with light lanyards to keep them from floating away. If you are guest #3 we have vest type PFDs you can wear. Kids sizes, too. These are in the barn with the canoes unless they are needed. There are 4 "regular" offshore PFDs stowed aboard also. Wearing one of those would be uncomfortable, unless you were in the ocean waiting for rescue. O.K. Now the rule that everyone wears a pfd all the time on Tundra Down is reasonable and enforced. Ooops! We only have two survival suits!

Down


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## FinallySailing (Feb 12, 2013)

I wear an automatic self inflating PFD all the time on the water and also when solo (or with just the kids) on the pontoon. Water is cold around here. You'll be amazed how quick you become hypothermic when immersed and how soon you loose both your strength and your ability to think and coordinate movements before you become unconscious. I feel naked without one. Can't really tell the junior crew of eight and ten years to wear one if I am not exemplary. Anybody ever jumped into the water with their pfd on ? I did a sea survival course with the RYA (which I can highly recommend to anybody wherever you sail). Jumping with full gear into a wave pool you soon understand why the RYA recommends that your PFD should have a crotch strap (its amazing how quick your PFD will pull up and away from you), a spray hood and a D ring for attaching a harness so you don't fall overboard in the first instance.


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## downeast450 (Jan 16, 2008)

Crotch straps for the 4 automatics are this year's upgrade. They should come with them!!!

Down


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## celenoglu (Dec 13, 2008)

Life jackets are for water. You should stay on board and make sure you stay o board as long as the boat is floating. If you are in the drink, what ever the conditions the possibility of death is very high. Stay on board. Make sure you are connected to a very strong point on the boat which will not let you fall to sea. Any type of connection which allows you to fall to sea coneected to the boat is fatal. 

Use your pfd (it should be a life vest) in case your boat is sinking.


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

personally I think a harness is more important than a PFD, better to stay on the boat than anything else. If I were to travel offshore, even coastal I would demand a harness be wore 24/7, even while sleeping. Its not going to do much good when the sheet hits the fan and you have to wait for the harness to be put on. 

The inflatables PFDs are super comfy, but if I knew heavy weather was coming I would wear my regular PFD. One snag on the inflatable PFD and it's toast. 

Sailing around the bay in normal conditions with my family I typically do not wear any.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

Sometimes, rarely in the summer. I have been sailing off and on for 43 years and I have never fallen off a boat unintentionally.


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## downeast450 (Jan 16, 2008)

In 50+ years of boating I have only gone overboard twice when it wasn't intentional or an anticipated possibility. Canoe racing excepted. Once as a teenager driving a class B hydroplane when the steering suddenly failed. The boat turned sharply to the left and I went straight ahead. It was so violently fast my hand did not trip the crash throttle. I survived. That is an interesting and funny, unbelievable, story. The second one was last year at our mooring in Seal Harbor when the lifeline parted as I was reaching for the pickup float. Life vests both times. WW canoe racing requires worn pfds. Plenty of possibilities to swim. Class III rapids are much more comfortable when you are wearing a life vest.

Staying aboard is the plan. That is why our sport is not called swimming! If you have any experience with an avoidable, tragic, accidental death you understand the remorse surrounding that irreversible event. Current equipment is not too bulky to be worn comfortably. Wishing you could undo an accident that ended the life of a friend or loved one is a permanent reality. Selfish is one of the words that comes to mind when I read of people who have died while boating and were not wearing life vests, leaving their loved ones behind to grieve. For ever!

My politics are Libertarian leaning Independent. Hands off! Don't regulate my personal decisions.... But, if you want to sail with me, you will wear a life vest. It is a loving thing to do.

Down

I am more comfortable in just shorts too, when the conditions are appropriate. But!


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I do not wear one all the time on our boat. While these could become my famous last words, it would be pretty tough to fall out of our cockpit, through the bimini frame then through the lifelines/pushpit. (throws salt over shoulder)

However, I will wear one in rough conditions or on lengthy passages, where it is just the two of us and one is sleeping or down below. 

On a boat which would be more likely to knock down or easier to end up in the drink, I would also wear one more often. If one is alone, I see no excuse not to wear one at all times, with a handheld radio, regardless of the boat. Seriously, what would the back up plan be, otherwise?

As for the feedback that inevitable proclaims that some wear them all the time, no matter what, etc, etc. My observations of sailors over 40 years, is they must sail well out of sight distance. I see very few come and go with their pfds on, all the time. I find it somewhat amusing that the entire crew in the Newport-Bermuda race is required to have them on when the cross the start and finish lines, but fielders choice in between. They are trying to set a good example. 

While it remains good advice to wear it at all times, there are some that claim to, but have posted several pics of themselves sans pfd. You know who you are.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

The auto-inflatables really take a lot of the air out of the argument to not wear them.

Even so, I'm not religious about PFDs. I always wear one when I'm working the foredeck on my Friday night race boat. When single-handing, I wear one when the water temperatures are warm enough for me to survive for a period in the water. When the waters are colder, I either wear a harness and tether or my SOSpenders with integrated harness.

On those occasions when I have crew, or when I am acting as crew in the cockpit of someone else's boat, I don't wear one, especially if the water is warmer.


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## NCC320 (Dec 23, 2008)

I sail inshore, so I generally do not have rough conditions to contend with. I always wear an auto-inflatable belt pack inflatable. Not as good or secure as a vest/harness type inflatable, but very comfortable. You don't even know it's there most of the time. However, it is not as safe as the harness type inflatable in that you have to finish putting it on after you are in the water and part of the process is letting out some of the CO2 to partially deflate it so you can get it over your head. Then you pull the straps tight to finish. You use the mouth piece to re-inflate fully after it's on. If it becomes rough, then I go to an auto harness type inflatable, which I carry on board at all times, also have tethers/jacklines to clip in. I have three of each type on board, plus a bunch of the red foam Type II's.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

Nope.

Kayak, but generally only whitewater (always) or cold water. On warm flat water the kayak isn't going anywhere, I can reboard, and the jacket is in easy reach. Not hard to put on the in the water. These skills must, of course, be practiced.

Tender if out of the harbor. It could leave me if I forgot the dead man switch.

Harness if...
* alone 
* night
* rough weather
* chute up in moderate weather
* going forward in moderate weather
* cold water

Reasons?
* Hot in summer. Harness is more comfortable.
* Harness is more comfortable all of the time.
* Harness much better for the above for conditions.


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

harness alone is a good option, and one I'm also considering.


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## BentSailor (Nov 10, 2010)

I have kids and so try to set an example whenever they can see (i.e. wearing one all the time)... that said, I'm quite often not wearing one when sailing "other people's boats" and the kids are not around. Reckon I should be and I endeavour to wear one when rowing the tender in/out, but I'll be upfront and say I do it less than I think I should.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

Almost all of the time.

All of the time if I'm solo, there are no other confident sailors onboard, or I'm chilly.

Less likely if it's really hot out and there is a lot of experienced crew.

I did a fair amount of kayaking before sailing and got into the habit there. I feel naked if I get into a kayak without a PFD on.

I also have a kayaking dry suit that I use as my foul weather gear. With that I can be comfortable in the water even if swimming for over an hour. I've tested it before at 45 minutes in 42 degree lake water.

My sailing PFD is an inflatable, but I use a standard one when on the dinghy or a kayak.


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## ThirdCoastSailor (Mar 27, 2010)

I have Mustang inflatable and I always wear it. I have a strobe and whistle attached to it.


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## rugosa (Aug 30, 2011)

Hard and fast rule aboard, boat doesn't leave dock unless all are wearing supplied PDF's, whether club racing or weekend sailing. Every couple of years a boat turns up on south shore with the AP engaged and nobody aboard. Likely fell over on a pee break.


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## Geoff54 (Oct 30, 2011)

I have an inflatable jacket with built in harness, crotch strap and spray hood, that I wear when appropriate. I think it’s up to the individual to determine what their risk tolerance is and what is appropriate for them. There are however, a couple of things that I’d like to put out there for discussion:

How many of us have actually tried out our inflatable jackets? When I tried mine I was surprised at how much it “got in the way” – enough that I bought the adaptor to convert it from automatic to manual. I am a strong swimmer and I wanted the option to swim/climb first with the minimum of restriction and then inflate the jacket if needed. I have no evidence to back this up but I feel that, at least for me, I am more at risk from a restricted ability to self-rescue than the risk of being unconscious and not being able to inflate the life jacket. Ironically it appears that the better the life jacket, the more restrictive it is.

Crotch straps and spray hood are proven lifesavers yet I still see a lot of jackets that are sold (and presumably worn) without them. If you are in a situation where you might have to rely on your life jacket to save your life, why wouldn’t you maximize your odds of survival by having a crotch strap and spray hood? 

I’m interested what others think.


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## DrB (Mar 29, 2007)

rugosa said:


> Hard and fast rule aboard, boat doesn't leave dock unless all are wearing supplied PDF's, whether club racing or weekend sailing. Every couple of years a boat turns up on south shore with the AP engaged and nobody aboard. Likely fell over on a pee break.


Absolutely. This is no reason not to. We have invested almost $1000 in the auto-inflatables for all the guests on our boat (8 PFDs)


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## rikhall (Feb 7, 2008)

To us it seems very silly not to. We have four Mustang inflatables and usually wear the auto w/o harness. If at the helm alone in anything but benign weather, harness and tether. Bay if Fundy / Coast of Maine - is a tad chilly for anything more than a very quick dip in very hot weather in a very calm harbour.

Got a pretty pink one for Linda a year ago for Christmas. It looks good on her!

Rik


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## irmedic (Aug 13, 2010)

I always wear my Mustang Auto Inflate. You forget it's there until you lean your head back and it rests on the back. Very comfy. I wish mine had the harness though.. The spinlocks seem major bulky and obtrusive to me vs the mustangs.


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

Couldn't you just clip a tether around the buckle?

What does a spray hood do? Keep your head warm?


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Yes you can clip a tether around the built in metal buckles. Hence why many like the offshore version with the buckles. Then hook the other end of the tether to a metal fitting on the deck, or to typically a 1-2" wide strap along the deck going forward. One on ea side.

Marty


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## PaulinVictoria (Aug 23, 2009)

Spray hood prevents secondary drowning, i.e. waves/spray etc blasting you in the face.


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

Oh. I looked at pictures. Has a breathable mask. Makes some sense.


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

I join the " no, don't wear one unless the boat is sinking" group.

I sailed firstly because I wanted to be outside, in the sun, relaxing with my friends and family. With a life jacket on, no matter what it's form, I feel trussed up ready for a disaster to come along. I get to wondering about tempting fate. And it makes for seriously funny tan lines.

As far as the "inevitable horrible end" coming along, it sure takes it's time, I've been actively sailing for 40 odd years and have never gone over the side yet and have never had any form of incident where I thought "Man, I wish I was wearing a life jacket". Harness yes, life jacket, never.

I'm not going to suggest that folks who wear life jackets on sunny, 12 - 15 knot, flat-sea days are sissies, I just watch their boats going by with an orange hue emanating from the cockpit and I think "He must have a coast guard official or maybe the vicar on board"

To each his own.


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## SimonV (Jul 6, 2006)

smackdaddy said:


> The inflatables are super comfy. We ALWAYS wear ours when not below. It really doesn't make sense not to.
> 
> (PS - If you can comfortably swim 10-20 miles in your waters, you should be fine.)


You fibber, I have seen a couple of photos of you sailing and not a life jacket ion sight.


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## SimonV (Jul 6, 2006)

I wear one when the situation calls for it. Bar crossing, bad weather, and as it has a built in harness when working on deck and always at night when out of the cockpit.


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## DearPrudence (Apr 8, 2013)

Not only do the wife and I wear ours, we insist all guests wear one as well!
Jeff


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

northoceanbeach said:


> I was thinking about getting a life jacket ...


Just curious. You don't say that you are getting "another" or "different" life jacket. Do you not have any on board now?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

DearPrudence said:


> Not only do the wife and I wear ours, we insist all guests wear one as well!
> Jeff


Brilliant! Iwas looking for a way to reduce the number of people that want to come sailing with us.

Truth is, I wouldn't leave the Bay with guests in conditions I felt required PFDs.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SimonV said:


> You fibber, I have seen a couple of photos of you sailing and not a life jacket ion sight.


I got a little chuckle out of this too.

I'm sure Smacky was trying to set a good example for the kids that read the forum. But, when you link your own blog with pics of yourself to your post, you should presume people read'em.

Best not to fib at all. Second best is not to be good at it.


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## blutoyz (Oct 28, 2012)

My daughter is home on leave (Navy Corpsman) and she is giving me a hard time about going to handle the main and set the anchor without one. I will be heading to West Marine for a couple auto inflates before she heads back to Italy.

It is good practice after all


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## adki110 (Feb 27, 2011)

The proportion of responders who state they always wear/never leave the dock without wearing them is contrary to my observations during my 53 years on the water. I don't think I have seen 1% of people routenly wear them, this includes Coast Guard, DEP, and Marine Police. . My method is : 1. going offshore the jack lines are strung 2. only person on deck pfd/harness worn and clipped on to one of the padeyes in the cockpit 3. in any kind of weather going forward pfd/harness clipped to jackline 4 weather kicking up pfd/harness worn and clip on to cockpit padeye before you clear the companionway


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## jimrafford (Jan 7, 2011)

You don't have to leave the dock to need one.
I lost a good friend last weekend at Block Island. He fell out of the boat at the mooring during the night. The crew were asleep and no one heard anything. When the got up in the morning his stuff was there but he was gone. They found him floating a few hours later.
Jim


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## cranki (Jun 11, 2006)

I wear one when single handing offshore, along with a harness. I have worn one a few times when ocean racing in rough weather. Nothing like reefing a working jib in a gale on a 30 footer at night with green water coming over the bow!

But generally I don't wear one. I always have them within reach. Went kayaking around the harbor yesterday pfd tucked behind the seat.

After reading this thread I am going to look into an inflatable and think about wearing it when single handing in my home waters of Long Island Sound. I do disagree with the OP though, I think that throughout the summer the water is warm enough here to survive for quite a while.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

cranki said:


> '''''''''''
> After reading this thread I am going to look into an inflatable and think about wearing it when single handing in my home waters of Long Island Sound. I do disagree with the OP though, I think that throughout the summer the water is warm enough here to survive for quite a while.


You can disagree with the OP all you want about how long one can or can not survive in water if dumped overboard. LIS may be warm enough to survive for a bit, but here in the salish sea where it is 40F generally speaking year around, you have 5-15 min at best, generally speaking, before Hypothermia starts to set in. Hence why most folks use dry suits when scuba diving around here too!

Then the water can get rough out int he straight of Juan de Fuca that he cross's.....He is also in a 23' boat, with NO lifelines. So a harness should be part of his normal routine to a degree too.........

Then again as noted by some CG statistics, a lot do not wear them no matter where one is or conditions............

Reality is, a harness/tether and a proper PFD for the conditions should be a part of ones normal boating useage.

Marty


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

davidpm said:


> I put my life jacket on when I leave the car and take it off when I get back to the car.


I have images of David wearing a bright orange PFD as he goes grocery shopping.


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## nodders (Aug 19, 2011)

I noticed sailing the BVI's this winter that no one wore life jackets down there and was surprized by that. But then the water is warm and I can swim in salt water better, so got a bit lazy and didn't wear one much (plus the PFD's that came with the boat sucked).

Back on the cold waters of Lake Ontario, my inflatable is on from the moment we hit the dock and if the water is lumpy, my tether is close at hand and used if I need to go on deck.

I have heard that a lot of accidents happen when leaving or arriving at a dock - perhaps the most important time to have it on!


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Honestly, for us it's not a matter of water temp and hypothermia. The waters here are plenty warm. It's just that we're lazy. Who wants to work hard treading water while waiting for rescue while you can just lie back and drink your beer while you bob around in your yellow floatie? You can also use your hands to zip your pants back up before the CG gets there and discovers yet another sailor who was peeing off the transom. Heh-heh.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

We wear combination inflatable and harness on deck at night, with tether on at all times. Also wear this rig during daylight when weather is partcularly snotty. Rest of the time not - tan lines (kidding).


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## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

This past weekend I wore my vest when I moved the boat solo ~10 miles from the yard where they dropped it in to my mooring. Water temp 58 degrees, early morning, very few other boats.... Yep.

As our water warms up, and the days get hot, and I'm sailing with people who know how to handle the boat, I rarely will put one on.


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## Irunbird (Aug 10, 2008)

northoceanbeach said:


> I was thinking about getting a life jacket and I wondered how many people wear them and when. Please discuss other safety devices you find essential.
> 
> I have never worn a life jacket sailing but with the new(to me at least) auto inflatable kinds I'm interested. I'm sure most of you have one. Do you like it?
> 
> ...


We live in warm water, so what I/we do is likely different from what you would do. We almost never wear any kind of pfd while racing unless it's blowing (usually anything > 15 kts for sure) or doing something off-shore. When we race up and down the coast and it's nice (during the daytime and in similar wind) we do the same as inshore (no pfd). Beyond that, we wear pfd's anytime at night, and are tethered somewhere to a secure point. I have this years' model spinlock deckvest, but a west marine tether- the clips are easier to one-hand.

When singlehanding in light/moderate breeze I wear a plain harness and tether in only when doing something I perceive as risky, but I don't run jacklines when out daysailing by myself. Again, if it's > 15, then I'll wear the pfd and run jacklines and tether at all times.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I typically wear an auto-inflatable PFD/ harness when I am single-handing, racing small keel boats, anytime I put on foul weather gear, or flying the spinnaker short-handed.


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

I have a non inflatable west marine sitting in the locker in case I get an inspection. 

What got me thinking about it was when my friend was sailing with me the last three weeks, when the wind started to blow, she asked for a life jacket. So I started thinking, because she couldn't steer well, if I fell, I don't think she would know what to do to come back and get me, but she could call for help. If I'm by myself, I would probably fall off because the weather is rough, and I doubt there are enough boats around to see me anyways. Better to tether and not fall at all. 

I do have lifelines and a toe rail though. 

Let's pretend I was breing captain badass for a while. Sailing solo to Alaska or something. Are jacklines necessary on a small boat or can you just clip and unclip a 6 foot tether like the WM one mentioned above to the bars that come out of the bottom of the stantions?


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

northoceanbeach said:


> . Are jacklines necessary on a small boat or can you just clip and unclip a 6 foot tether like the WM one mentioned above to the bars that come out of the bottom of the stantions?


 You want to tether yourself inboard to prevent yourself from going over the side, rather than tethering to the stanchions, and hanging over the side. That is why jacklines are a very good idea for foul weather singlehanding.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Most of my adult life, I have rigged jacklines when single-handing on small keel boats. As Jones says, the idea is clip on to the windward jackline so you can't make it over the rail to leeward. I cannot tell you how many times my harness has kept me aboard.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

When single-handing, which is 90% of the time, I wear an inflatable w/ harness or a harness and standard jacket. I am tethered (with a double-line tether) to a jackline all the time. I don't unclip until down the companionway. When within swimming distance to shore, I'll unclip and take the jacket/harness off. They are awfully uncomfortable (Comfort Max is a misnomer) after many hours and a gigantic relief to remove. With no one to turn the boat around to scoop you up, falling in is likely fatal.


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## randomforumname (Mar 2, 2012)

March of 2013 and sailing an inland lake: It was cold and I didn't bring a heavy enough jacket. I put on the life jacket only because I was cold, not for safety's sake. My friend did not wear a PFD.

I won't discuss the why or how, but the boat went down 1/2 mile from shore. His blue jeans kept him from effectively swimming. The water was crazy cold. My PFD saved both of us.

Wear that thing!


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## rockDAWG (Sep 6, 2006)

northoceanbeach said:


> I was thinking about getting a life jacket and I wondered how many people wear them and when. Please discuss other safety devices you find essential.
> 
> I have never worn a life jacket sailing but with the new(to me at least) auto inflatable kinds I'm interested. I'm sure most of you have one. Do you like it?
> 
> ...


It is not how far away from the shore or land that I will wear my PFD. Any time that is a chance that I will fall over board I will put on my PFD and tether to the boat.

Day time with no wind and just motoring and staying in the cockpit, it is unlikely I will have my PFD on.

Whenever in doubt, I would put it on.


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

as a singlehander.. I will definatly be clicking in and wearing a PFD anytime I am away from the dock.


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## coultereng (May 26, 2008)

Almost NEVER.


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

blt2ski said:


> . . . but here in the salish sea where it is 40F generally speaking year around, you have 5-15 min at best, generally speaking, before Hypothermia starts to set in. Hence why most folks use dry suits when scuba diving around here too!


So effectively the use of a PFD in your area is more about easy recovery of the corpse than survival . . . . .


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## rikhall (Feb 7, 2008)

Omatako said:


> So effectively the use of a PFD in your area is more about easy recovery of the corpse than survival . . . . .


And, without being gross - that is a very good reason to wear one. If a surviving family member has to wait six years for benefits because they could not find the corpse . . .


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Omatako said:


> So effectively the use of a PFD in your area is more about easy recovery of the corpse than survival . . . . .


Yes, this is probably one of the main reasons to wear a pfd no matter where you are at. If nothing else, if the weather is that bad, you have drowned, the rescuers can get you and go home sooner per say etc.

Reality is, in some parts of the world, a pfd WILL NOT save your butt per say. In Alaska where the water will be as close to 32f/0C as it can be, maybe even a degree or two colder, your chance of living is probably less than 15 min! I could be wrong, but without a survival suit, I would not give you a lot of time before you are unconscious!

If the water is 60-70F temps, you probably have over an hour if you can figure out how to float that long etc.........but even still, hypothermia will set in, sooner or later you are unconscious, soon after one drowns! Colder water is sooner than warmer.

Probably best overall, is a pfd with a harness or at minimum a harness such that one can not fall overboard! I have some jacklines I put out when I know the water will be rougher, such that folks on the bow can worry about doing the bow work, and hopefully not worry about falling overboard. Clipping in many times is a good thing. Does not matter if the waves are a foot or 100' high frankly! If you feel you need to clip in, clip in! The Op's boat I believe does not have any lifelines, so clipping in in some way shape or form when the waves are in the 3-5'=+ range crossing the straights of juan de fuca, or straights of Georgia or equal around here...... might be a smart thing to do, or the CG will find a boat sailing along, no operator/person on board! not a good thing.

Marty


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

It's not 40F in the Puget Sound. It's cold, but not that cold.

It is 52.5F on this buoy:
NDBC - Station EBSW1

51.4F on this one:
NDBC - Station PTWW1

In mid-winter it'll be about 45F. The lake temps do get a lot colder (down to the upper 30s on Lake Sammamish on New Years Day).

There is a helpful hypothermia chart here:
Boating & Hypothermia - BoatSafe.com


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## downeast450 (Jan 16, 2008)

rikhall said:


> And, without being gross - that is a very good reason to wear one. If a surviving family member has to wait six years for benefits because they could not find the corpse . . .


I have to agree with Rik. It is one reason. Saving a life is the most important reason. I know Rik agrees with that. No one is required to wear one if they don't feel like the loss of their life is a likelihood. Of if they simply feel like it won't make any difference. Or if they just don't want to be encumbered by a device that, in an unforeseen event, would contribute to their safety. Or.... There is no end to the reasons for not wearing one. I certainly have gone out on the water without wearing one countless times n the past.

On the other hand. If you are a world class athlete in certain sanctioned competitions the rules require it be worn. Why? To minimize the likelhood of your becoming a complicating statistic? No, to exercise maximum insurance against drowning where it can be mandated.

With the development of seat belts we got used to their presence. I put mine on automatically now because I don't feel as secure driving without it. Their effectiveness is clearly established. My teeth went through my lips as kid, in the 50s, when a sudden stop slammed my face into an un padded dashboard.

The availability of fairly comfortable automatic pfds can minimize the likelihood that your loved ones will live the rest of their lives mourning your accidental drowning. If it isn't because you feel at risk that you automatically put one on, whenever on the water, do it for them. Develop the "seat belt" habit to protect the ones you love. To make an excuse for not wearing one...Oops, did I say "excuse"? I meant "reason" is simply, selfish. It won't be your problem if something you didn't anticipate takes your life. It will be, one of the worst imaginable problems, for those you leave behind.

Wear your pfd.!! Even if it only means your kids or your widow will collect the insurance they need, in a timely way, to survive without you. Why not?

Down


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## rgscpat (Aug 1, 2010)

In cold water, fine muscle failure, gross muscle failure, and then consciousness will be lost before hypothermia finally kills you off. For someone without a life jacket, swim failure and drowning will occur long before death from the final stages of hypothermia. Wearing a life jacket will give rescuers much more time to find you, hook on, and get your soggy butt out of the water while there's still a chance to save you. 

The jacket, depending upon type, will also provide a bit of insulation, will help keep you higher in the water, and will reduce the effort required to float, helping you conserve warmth.

And, if the worst occurs, it will make it much less likely that people are still searching for your body during and after your funeral or memorial service. 

A few years ago, a friend fell off a boat about a thousand feet from us. He had a top-of-the line inflatable -- in his sailing gear bag, where the marina manager, his skipper, and my wife found it. His body came back up three weeks later -- a week after the memorial service. (It took a while for the decomposition process inside his body to offset the cold water keeping his body on the bottom of the lake.) Interestingly, his sunglasses and hat were still on his recovered body. 

P.S. At least one of the speakers at the memorial service was poorly chosen and did a really terrible job of talking about my friend's work life -- it sounded like the speaker from his company was reading from old performance appraisal notes and didn't even know my friend. If you're going to insist on not wearing, make sure your widow-to-be has a list of people who'll do a competent job of speaking at your memorial service or funeral.


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## Geoff54 (Oct 30, 2011)

downeast450 said:


> To make an excuse for not wearing one...Oops, did I say "excuse"? I meant "reason" is simply, selfish. It won't be your problem if something you didn't anticipate takes your life. It will be, one of the worst imaginable problems, for those you leave behind.
> 
> Wear your pfd.!! Even if it only means your kids or your widow will collect the insurance they need, in a timely way, to survive without you. Why not?
> 
> Down


I had a serious reply about judging people by your prejudices... I mean "standards" but then I found an excuse... sorry, "reason" not to. I found my next PFD. Awesome! 










O.K. I changed my mind.

This drives me nuts. Whether I agree with you or not is irrelevant. I respect your opinion but that is all it is - an opinion. You have made your risk/reward assessment and based on your your circumstances and risk tolerance, you have determined what is right for you. Great! But now you are telling everyone else that we should think the same as you or we are making excuses and being selfish.

Thank you for your concern but I prefer to think for myself and make my own determination. Thankfully, I am still allowed to do that. I said previously, I wear a life jacket when I think that it is appropriate. What is appropriate for me may or may not be appropriate for others.

As a final thought, I would argue that overall wearing my life jacket, which has a harness, spray hood, crotch strap and has a VHF and PLB attached "when appropriate", is inherently safer than wearing a regular inflatable from the second that you can smell the sea. But I've seen too much to think that I am completely safe or that anyone who doesn't agree is selfish and making excuses.


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

Come to think about it. I could always clip to the windward stanchion. Or there are metal rings installed in the center of my cockpit. I wonder if that's what they were installed for.


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## downeast450 (Jan 16, 2008)

Geoff54 said:


> Thank you for your concern but I prefer to think for myself and make my own determination. Thankfully, I am still allowed to do that. I said previously, I wear a life jacket when I think that it is appropriate. What is appropriate for me may or may not be appropriate for others.


Geoff, I agree with you. My thoughts about this are my opinions and I DO feel, strongly, that you and everyone, including me, should and hopefully can, think for themselves. My replies on this thread do go a bit toward prosthelytizing. Not characteristic of me. I recognized that before I posted. Apologies if it offended. I was just hoping to help by hitting a nerve. It is an important topic that only becomes poignant after the fact. I wish you a trouble free life on the water. It is a passion all of us share.

Very funny pic. Where did you find that?

Down


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

FYI ...Worst Marine is having a sale today on Coastal Inflatable PFDs, only $100


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## downeast450 (Jan 16, 2008)

Hamilton Marine today, too.

Welcome To Hamilton Marine

Down


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## Irunbird (Aug 10, 2008)

northoceanbeach said:


> Come to think about it. I could always clip to the windward stanchion. Or there are metal rings installed in the center of my cockpit. I wonder if that's what they were installed for.


If the metal rings look strong enough to withstand a load of at least 4000 lbs (more is better), then yes. They should have adequate backing plates as well, then they'll work well for attaching jacklines and/or tethers. I would never clip to a stanchion unless there was nothing else to clip to. It is so easy to run jacklines (and not that expensive), all you have to do is run them between bow and stern cleat(s) or somewhere not too far aft to allow you to fall over the transom. Another note about pfd's, since were on the subject- I had west marine's off-shore model, and it's not too uncomfortable that I thought it was a hassle to wear, but since having the Spinlock model, I'll probably never go back to the regular style inflatables. They are so adjustable that you barely notice you have it on, and it goes on in a cinch. I'm able to put on all foul weather gear, and just plop this thing over my head, button it and clip in in seconds- blind-folded- it's that easy. At $400 clams, they're not exactly cheap, but I cannot imagine buying another.


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## polaris2.11 (Mar 21, 2012)

PFD goes on when there are white caps. ok, if it is really hot (we don't have inflatables) and the wind is steady, PFD goes on when there are white caps and you leave the cockpit. We don't have harnesses (but they are on the list). In cool weather, we just wear them all the time. They help keep you warm. Mostly inshore sailing.


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## Geoff54 (Oct 30, 2011)

downeast450 said:


> Geoff, I agree with you. My thoughts about this are my opinions and I DO feel, strongly, that you and everyone, including me, should and hopefully can, think for themselves. My replies on this thread do go a bit toward prosthelytizing. Not characteristic of me. I recognized that before I posted. Apologies if it offended. I was just hoping to help by hitting a nerve. It is an important topic that only becomes poignant after the fact. I wish you a trouble free life on the water. It is a passion all of us share.


No problem, Down. I don't mind a good argument....err...discussion, as long as we are nice about it.









I don't want to get too bogged down in semantics but consider this: When I drive I put on a seat belt. The danger is moderate, the inconvenience minor and the potential reward is high. But although it would be safer, I don't wear a five point harness or a nomex suit or a helmet because, while the danger is the same, the inconvenience is significant and the reward (compared with wearing a three point belt) is relatively minor (depending on how you look at it, you could also argue that the danger is greater but the reward the same - just a different spin).

Similarly, a solo sailor, small boat, cold water area, at night and in bad weather should consider every possible precaution. On the other hand, in the Caribbean, on a big charter boat, in benign condition, island hopping with someone who could pick me up, it's rare that I wear more than a pair of shorts and some sunscreen. The reasons are obvious and I don't ever recall seeing anyone in the Caribbean wearing a life jacket. For many of us (most?), there is a line somewhere between the two where the wear/don't wear decision is made. Risk is everywhere - safety is relative.

It seems to me that the person in the most danger is not the person who makes a rational decision but the person who is either oblivious to the risk or who has an "it won't happen to me" attitude. I would be mentioning the inexperienced power boater who thinks it "just like driving a car", but that would be demonstrating my prejudice... ooops! 

BTW, Knox-Johnson never wore a life jacket. His opinion was that it restricted his movement which made him more likely to go over the side and, in the middle of the ocean, the odds of him being rescued were very small. I think that is a valid decision - not the decision I would make but valid none the less.



downeast450 said:


> Very funny pic. Where did you find that?


Sorry but I don't remember. I save pictures that I like or find funny and email them to my friends from time to time. Here's one to support your point of view.










Fair Winds.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Omatako said:


> I join the " no, don't wear one unless the boat is sinking" group.
> 
> I sailed firstly because I wanted to be outside, in the sun, relaxing with my friends and family. With a life jacket on, no matter what it's form, I feel trussed up ready for a disaster to come along. I get to wondering about tempting fate. And it makes for seriously funny tan lines.
> 
> ...


Pretty much my thoughts, exactly... Can't say as I recall the last time I had one on, it may have been for the photo op below...

I ALWAYS carry a full-on Mae West when going anywhere in my tender, however... Makes for a very nice seat cushion... (grin)


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

FinallySailing said:


> I wear an automatic self inflating PFD all the time on the water and also when solo (or with just the kids) on the pontoon. Water is cold around here. You'll be amazed how quick you become hypothermic when immersed and how soon you loose both your strength and your ability to think and coordinate movements before you become unconscious. I feel naked without one. Can't really tell the junior crew of eight and ten years to wear one if I am not exemplary. Anybody ever jumped into the water with their pfd on ? I did a sea survival course with the RYA (which I can highly recommend to anybody wherever you sail). Jumping with full gear into a wave pool you soon understand why the RYA recommends that your PFD should have a crotch strap (its amazing how quick your PFD will pull up and away from you), a spray hood and a D ring for attaching a harness so you don't fall overboard in the first instance.


Where do I get one with a spray hood and crotch strap?

By the way, I showed this to my obstinate youngster this evening to help motivate her to put her life jacket on. I was "starting" to leave her on the shore this evening, until she put her's on, fully buckled.

Regards,
Brad


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

Good stuff. I understand setting an example for kids but there are things that apply to adults but not to them. So I think telling them and teaching is enough


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## Geoff54 (Oct 30, 2011)

Bene505 said:


> Where do I get one with a spray hood and crotch strap?


That's a really good question. Mustang do an add-on crotch strap that works with their jackets and probably others as well. Most European life jackets either come with a crotch strap and spray hood, or they are options. I don't understand why the U.S. manufacturers don't do the same.

It was a few years ago now but I brought mine back with me from a trip. It is made by Seago, is great quality and cost less than anything I found this side of the Atlantic. Maybe the market is bigger over there.


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

Deckvest by spin lock has both. It's $369 at West Marine. It looks the coolest too.


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## sailordave (Jun 26, 2001)

Let's see. 
Laser sailing: always wear a Type 2. Gotta have one on board anyway and there's really no place to stow one.
Big boat... Depends on the weather and the number of crew. Sometimes. And sometimes I just wear a harness and clip on.
Singlehanding my CS Merlin I ALWAYS wear my inflatable/harness and usually clip in if it's rough. 
Just got back from from Doublehanding to Bermuda. Very benign passage and when both of us were on deck during the day we didn't always wear a PFD or clip in w/ a harness.
At night however, that was a rule that was strictly observed.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

JonEisberg said:


> Pretty much my thoughts, exactly... Can't say as I recall the last time I had one on, it may have been for the photo op below...
> 
> I ALWAYS carry a full-on Mae West when going anywhere in my tender, however... Makes for a very nice seat cushion... (grin)


I'm just amazed that your photographer was able to get that camera up the mast AND kick off the flash powder in such a wet environment...










Those were the days.


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## FinallySailing (Feb 12, 2013)

Bene505 said:


> Where do I get one with a spray hood and crotch strap?


Both Baltic and Crewsaver make them. Most other manufacturers here offer life jackets with crotch straps and you can buy sprayhoods to retrofit onto your existing gear.


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

jimgo said:


> I have images of David wearing a bright orange PFD as he goes grocery shopping.


It's actually one of the ones like kayakers wear, with large but thin panels. Quite comfortable looking and trustworthy (doesn't have to inflate to work. IIRC, he's looking for a version of that type of pfd that also has a built in harness.

Regards,
Brad


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

smurphny said:


> When single-handing, which is 90% of the time, I wear an inflatable w/ harness or a harness and standard jacket. I am tethered (with a double-line tether) to a jackline all the time. I don't unclip until down the companionway. When within swimming distance to shore, I'll unclip and take the jacket/harness off. They are awfully uncomfortable (Comfort Max is a misnomer) after many hours and a gigantic relief to remove. With no one to turn the boat around to scoop you up, falling in is likely fatal.


This is almost exactly what I do. With some modifications:

When single-handing, which is 50% of the time, I wear an inflatable w/ harness. I am tethered (with a single-line tether) to a jackline all the time. I don't unclip (and take the pfd off) until down the companionway. When within swimming distance to shore (and including water temperature and currents in that calculation), I'll unclip but keep the jacket/harness on. The inflatable is very comfortable.

Once I have the jack line setup. I'll generally leave then setup for many weeks.

Regards,
Brad


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## downeast450 (Jan 16, 2008)

I guess because I am usually, 90% of the time, single handing, including my row out to the mooring, I have adopted the habit of wearing my inflatable all the time. All the time, that is, when I am on the salt water here in Maine. I have "seen" some tragic accidents that have both cost a life or nearly have. Falling off the dock almost drowned a friend in Eastport. Someone saw his hat floating in the water and went in looking for him. He survived. Another good friend fell off his boat at his mooring in Northeast Harbor and no one heard his yells for help. He couldn't get into his dinghy and almost lost the battle to hypothermia. Accidents are just that, accidents. I am as used to putting on my inflatable as my sunglasses. It has a pocket for my hand held vhf and that is convenient. I like the red accent, too. Very stylish! 

There are times I am on the water that I do not wear one. I paddle canoes and still do a little racing. When I am paddling a positive floatation flat water boat on flat water I have one in the boat but don't wear it. In white water races or on long camping cruises that involve crossing large lakes with a loaded canoe, I wear one.

If you have been close to the tragic. permanent, loss from a drowning that, could have been prevented with a PFD, It might temper your perspective on the slight inconvenience of wearing one.

Be safe!

Down


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

I always carry one in my bag. I bought a Sospender with harness a decade ago for an offshore race. I have worn it when things are getting ugly or if I have to go forward in choppy conditions and I am not on a well crewed boat.

On the offshore race we all wore them at night or when the wind picked up. We tethered into Jacklines at night or when going forward.

I wish I had bought the inflatable PFD without the harness, as I have not used the harness so much and would probably wear the PFD more often if it was lighter. If I was solo, in colder water or not a strong swimmer i would always wear it. When I am captain I insist all non swimmers or children wear a PFD.


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## kellysails (Nov 1, 2008)

We ALWAYS wear an inflatable PFD's while underway. And we have four extras for when guests come on board. Personally I love the SpinLock deckvests, so comfy! But SpinLocks are not USCG approved so we have extra std PFD's in case of boarding by USCG. Guests are relegated to wear Revere PFD's, but they are comfortable also. We often have the grandkids aboard so it helps cut down their complaining on wearing PFD's if everyone wears one.


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## Geoff54 (Oct 30, 2011)

FinallySailing said:


> Both Baltic and Crewsaver make them. Most other manufacturers here offer life jackets with crotch straps and you can buy sprayhoods to retrofit onto your existing gear.


I don't think that any of the European brands are USCG approved, which limits their appeal (and therefore availability) in the US. Even Spinlock, which is sold here, isn't USCG approved. I'm guessing that the market isn't big enough and the local competition well established so they just don't bother. Of the US manufacturers, as far as I am aware, Mustang is the only one who sells a retrofit crotch straps and no one offers spray hoods - anybody know different?

Retrofitting a spray hood isn't easy unless the life jacket was designed for one. You would have to come up with a method of attachment (the one's I've seen have a loop on the life jacket cover and a toggle on the hood) and there has to be enough room to roll up the hood and fit it inside the cover. Not impossible to accommodate on a jacket that wasn't designed for it but not plug & play. If the loop and the space are included in the design, then it's just a matter of including the hood or offering it separately.


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## Geoff54 (Oct 30, 2011)

So I was curious and did a little looking.

I found spray hoods but they are kept in a separate pouch - not very convenient.
Life Jacket Sprayhood

And crotch straps aren't too difficult to find.
PFD Crotch / Thigh Strap


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

A couple weeks ago I went dinghy sailing on a local city lake. Club rules require a PFD, so I threw my type III in my backpack and biked over to the lake. That afternoon there was a thank-you event for a charity I do stuff for, so after sailing I biked over to that. They had a drawing and I won two 12-packs of cans of beer! Yay me!

Except I'm on my bike. I'm not one to turn away free beer, so I did some rearranging and managed to fit both 12-packs in my backpack, although I couldn't get the zipper to close and now I had a PFD to deal with.

What's the obvious solution? Wear it.

It started to rain at about this point. As I made my way out of the event three separate people said to me "It's not raining that hard." But anyway, yeah, that was me biking through the rain with an open backpack full of beer wearing a PFD.

So yes, I wear a life jacket. And not just while I'm in a boat!


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Believe if you fall off the boat you are likely DEAD. Believe tether more important than life jacket. Wear combo tether/life jacket always when singling passage making which is nearly always as sail with my Admiral so one up one down or even when crewed as usually one on watch at a time. Day sailing with a crowd ( 3 or more) nothing but do our MOB drills and are race equipment compliant even don't race anymore. Believe money for hydrostatic trigger worth every penny. Time you are going to be harnessed is when it's wet. Don't want the damn thing going off when working the fore deck. Salt pellets melt.
P.S. - have jacklines for going forward but also ring of jacklines just below seats in cockpit. Have experienced nearly floating out of the cockpit a couple of times so think it important to always be clipped in if conditions warrant.


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

Minnesail said:


> So yes, I wear a life jacket. And not just while I'm in a boat!


Another analogy for sailing and biking. You could have also just drank the beer for biking home or enough till the PFD fit.


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

jephotog said:


> Another analogy for sailing and biking. You could have also just drank the beer for biking home or enough till the PFD fit.


Or to keep your backpack empty (and therefore zipped-up and dry), tape the beer cans to the outside of the life jacket, going all the way around your body.

Then attach wires going from can to can.

Be sure to show how happy you are, wave dramatically at everyone on the way home.

Regards,
Brad


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

And make sure I go through Government Center on my way? 

And if I saw my friend Jihad who works there I could wave both my arms and yell "Jihad! Jihad!"


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## CarbonSink62 (Sep 29, 2011)

I have a Revere auto-inflate w/ harness. We have two West Marine auto-inflate vests w/o harness on board and 6 cheapo orange yoke vests.

I wear mine less than half the time:
Single handing
Sailing w/ inexperienced crew
At night
Rough seas

If I'm out with someone that can handle a boat and the weather is nice, I don't wear it.

I leave PFD use to the discretion of my guests.

I sail off the coast of Maine where the water is chilly; my brother and I often say (when our wives are ashore) that PFDs are important because it is nice for a memorial service to have a focal point.

It could be argued that I should only wear one when I'm out with experienced crew:
1. I stand a chance of being rescued.
2. If I haven't been treading water for 10 minutes, I could better assist in my rescue.

Ken


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## Dick6969 (Mar 4, 2012)

Yes...auto


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## Rossignols (Jul 2, 2013)

I wear a mustang auto every time as well. But about to buy a dinghy and not sure what I will wear on that. Given I expect to get wet sailing a dinghy will likely need to go with some other PDF


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## kellysails (Nov 1, 2008)

Rossignols said:


> I wear a mustang auto every time as well. But about to buy a dinghy and not sure what I will wear on that. Given I expect to get wet sailing a dinghy will likely need to go with some other PDF


The Kayak PFD style is nice, the bottom of the back is cut pretty high. It makes it really maneuverable while wearing. West Marine has some reasonably priced ones under their name brand. We like them for our kayaks and small sailing crafts.


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## downeast450 (Jan 16, 2008)

Yup! If we have an expectation of getting wet we wear a "standard" pfd, too.

Having one inflate every time I end up in the drink when I am paddling would not work.

Down


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

I'm afraid I most certainly and unapologetically fall into pretty much the same category as the OP. I don't particulalry like wearing the damn things but in certain situations they are called for, indeed down here in certain situations (crossing river bars for one) they are a legal requirement.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

Rossignols said:


> I wear a mustang auto every time as well. But about to buy a dinghy and not sure what I will wear on that. Given I expect to get wet sailing a dinghy will likely need to go with some other PDF


On the other hand knowing it's going to cost you $50 to re-arm your Mustang would be a good incentive to keep the boat upright 

I second kellysails, the kayak-cut PFDs work better for dinghies, plus they have pockets and such.


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## flo617 (Mar 3, 2010)

I always wear my life jacket in the bay, although I tend to abandon it in the oakland estuary when it's very hot..

I wear a conventionnal foam life jacket and I don't see what's the big deal. I also wear a harness under it, just for those moments...


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## sailordave (Jun 26, 2001)

Well here's a story for you to consider... 
Happened right here in Chesapeake Bay.

And I guess "technically" it was off the coast of Maryland.


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## abrahamx (Apr 3, 2006)

Damn. I would not have thought there was ANYONE who did not wear a lifejacket. But you come right out and say you dont. Not smart. I have not read the whole thread, but I sure hope you are the only one not wearing the appropriate gear.


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## CarbonSink62 (Sep 29, 2011)

abrahamx said:


> Damn. I would not have thought there was ANYONE who did not wear a lifejacket...


Do you sail in sight of other boats?

I see PFDs on maybe one in ten of the boaters I see. There will be a boat that comes along with every crew member in a vest, and then boat after boat of no vests or just one or two.

FWIW - I don't see any differences between power and sail in this regard

It's just not the same as seat belts. The Nannies* would like us to believe it is, but it isn't.

I tell my guests where the vests are; they are adults and allowed to make up their own minds.

Ken

*Those nattering nabobs of negativism.


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## Outrageous (Aug 18, 2010)

We sail/race SF Bay. The water temp outside the GGate is in the low 50's even in summer. Inside the bay, the windy and deeper parts *peak *in the low-60's in summer, falling to mid-50's other times. There are estuaries with summer highs from 66 to 71, but not for real sailing.

This hypothermia table shows how long you survive under certain conditions. Given the 25kt winds you were probably sailing in when you went in, which exacerbate the cooling, you have 15-30 mins before you are unable to assist in your rescue and have to hope there's a block and tackle and experienced crew at hand. You will be unresponsive, depending on wind, in about an hour - 2 if you're lucky.

An older sailor told me the best man overboard policy is "if you fall in, you're dead". Kinda gets your attention. Also, I've had some experiences...

Anything you can do to not thrash around, to huddle up and try to keep still water next to your body, will add valuable minutes. Wearing a wet or survival suit makes the most sense, and will add a lot of survival time, but someone still has to get you into the boat. Ladders rarely work because they don't go deep enough into the water for people's feet to reach, and because they'll be too exhausted.

I wear my life vest _almost _all the time (cruising to the fuel or haulout dock on a calm day, maybe not). But the real issue is: how are you getting out of the water? You can run "idiot lines" (loose hanging scalloped ropes tied to cleats on deck sides), and I've done that, but I've also fouled a prop with them (knotty problem). If someone goes in, I'll rely first on tossing a preserver, then the Life Sling to get them out. But I might also run a line from a mid-ship cleat to a winch, slacken it into the water and have the man overboard get their body onto the rope so I can winch them partway up, at least get them mostly out of the water so we can pull them up or use the Life Sling block and tackle.

The lifejacket is almost a moot point in our waters because it won't stop the hypothermia. Serious racers wear suits & that matters, but the real discussion is about getting out of the water.

I have 30+ years of water skiing, windsurfing, kayaking, and lake sailing which have taught me about hypothermia, but only 4 yrs on keelboat, so I'm open to suggestions, now, before it matters.


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## kellysails (Nov 1, 2008)

No one gets to sail off with us unless they wear a PFD that we supply or they bring with them. Sh&t happens.


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## kellysails (Nov 1, 2008)

Outrageous said:


> The lifejacket is almost a moot point in our waters because it won't stop the hypothermia. Serious racers wear suits & that matters, but the real discussion is about getting out of the water.


I've read a couple of articles lately that state "if you don't wear a PFD you really shouldn't worry about hypothermia, you will die of drowning long long before hypothermia sets in". Even in the cold PNW waters you have at least 30 to 45 minutes before hypothermia sets in. But falling in without a PFD the cold will essentially stop any effective use of arms and legs for swimming in a very short time. If you have heavy cloths on at the time, really no hope at all.

Good article here:
Drowning Doesn?t Look Like Drowning

This one goes deep on what I said above:
http://www.shipwrite.bc.ca/Chilling_truth.htm


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## johnnyquest37 (Feb 16, 2012)

When I sailed the PNW, we wore whole-body immersion suits. I went in the water (it was August) once to cut a line off the prop - after eight minutes, I was unable to climb out of the water using the swim ladder. PFD is going to give you another 30-60 minutes. The immersion suits might buy you eight hours. 

In the Chesapeake Bay, I rarely use a PFD. It's like reefing. When I start asking if I should have the PFD/harness on, then I put it on. When solo, yes, always have it on. Night sailing, tethers when leaving the cockpit. Otherwise it is situationally dependant. It is not like seat belts in a car. Even a relatively minor accident in a car can leave one crippled or dead. And, there are too many knuckleheads barreling along just inches away from your car. In general, the mistakes we make on our boats are our own.


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## kellysails (Nov 1, 2008)

johnnyquest37 said:


> In general, the mistakes we make on our boats are our own.


I have been called *obtuse* on more than one occasion but I really don't understand why needlessly risk ones life. Then leave the burden of your death to your loved ones to pick up the pieces. I can't imagine if I fell overboard and because I was not wearing a PFD my wife could not haul me in on time to save my life. How would she feel because I did something stupid and fell overboard but yet she couldn't save me. I have also been known to do stupid things on occasion and it's not beyond the realm of possibilities to pitch myself overboard accidentally.

Ah, maybe it is just me.


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

Our swim ladder is rigged so you can pull a light line from in the water and it unshackles and comes down. Right onto your head maybe, but it comes down.

While scuba diving with DavidPM, 50 feet from shore, we "tested" it. (Dinghy was there if it didn't work. Yes, it was an unplanned test.)

If anyone is interested I'll get a picture of the single-shackle setup and post it. (Having some laptop issues right now.)

Regards,
Brad


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

We have one of these Swi-Tech emergency ladders which can be lowered from the water. We hang it on the rail when one person is off the boat in the water, when I singlehand, or we do some passage making.

The loop to reach up and grab from the water is adjustable so its not hanging near the water line, but you can grab it to deploy the ladder easily. Its on page 31 of the catalogue. Some neat stuff in this catalogue if you don't get it already.

http://www.swi-tec.us/index.php?route=product/product&path=9&product_id=99

http://www.swi-tec.us/index.php?route=information/information&information_id=11
Dave


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## Geoff54 (Oct 30, 2011)

kellysails said:


> ... but I really don't understand why needlessly risk ones life.


I agree 100%! Where I suspect we differ is in the definition of "needlessly risk". For some just going out on a boat is needless risk - should we all just stay in bed?

Recently, there have been several boats disappear, presumably lost, on ocean crossing (Grain de Soliel, Lady Domina, Niña, come immediately to mind). I doubt PFDs would have done anybody a damn bit of good. Ocean Crossings must be needlessly risky if even a life jacket can't keep you safe. Better cross them of the list.

The point that I'm trying to make is that there is no right or wrong answer here - we all draw the line in a different place.



kellysails said:


> Then leave the burden of your death to your loved ones to pick up the pieces.


Nice attempt at a guilt trip. I see a great future for you in life insurance sales.









I'm off to the store to pick up a half gallon of soy milk, so I don't risk clogging up my arteries (honestly!). 









Laugh! Far safer than taking this too seriously.  Go on, you know you want to.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

You know what percentage of our safety zeolts speed when driving? All of them, to some extent.

Just sayin....

And "but I really don't understand why needlessly risk ones life. Then leave the burden of your death to your loved ones to pick up the pieces" is a bit of cliche reducto absurdum that should be embarrassing to post. Certainly it does not justify defense.


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## fryewe (Dec 4, 2004)

You can do whatever you want...

But I wear my PFD with light and whistle when underway and I don it before I leave the dock. I take it off when in the cabin unless it is just a duck-in to get or check something and when at anchor (my swim ladder is always deployed while at anchor).

I always wear it when in my dink.

And anybody who sails with me in my boat follows the same rules.


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## downeast450 (Jan 16, 2008)

Geoff54 said:


> The point that I'm trying to make is that there is no right or wrong answer here - we all draw the line in a different place.


That is true. It is a respected right, for sure.



> Nice attempt at a guilt trip. I see a great future for you in life insurance sales.... (honestly!).


Not an attempt to "guilt trip" anyone. Just a thoughtful reflection on real possible consequences.



> Laugh! Far safer than taking this too seriously.


It is a very serious matter. Hopefully the consequences of an avoidable drowning accident are never something that you have to confront. The crack about "life insurance" is thoughtless, at best.

Down


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## marianclaire (Feb 4, 2010)

northoceanbeach said:


> harness alone is a good option, and one I'm also considering.


 That is what I do most of the time. Clip in as soon as I clear the slip. My set up, jack-lines and tether length, varies with conditions and type of trip. The bottom line is "do not go over the side" not just "stay attached to the boat". About the only time I am not clipped in is when I am on the bow to raise the anchor in calm conditions and walk back to the cockpit and then clip in. Rough conditions I maintain the tether or a damn good hold at all times unless I am below. Short tethers can be a pain but you learn to work around it. I have gotten so used to the harness I feel naked without it. I add my pfd with strobe and whistle for offshore and very rough conditions. 
I have set up the MC for single-handing as that is how I sail most of the time and she has wide side decks, high toe rail, good hand holds and lifelines. But even with crew I try to follow the same rules. 
Dan S/V Marian Claire


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## kellysails (Nov 1, 2008)

Geoff54 said:


> I agree 100%! Where I suspect we differ is in the definition of "needlessly risk". For some just going out on a boat is needless risk - should we all just stay in bed?


Maybe the right phrasing here is "with a very small effort (to wear an inflatable PFD) you can dramatically reduce the risk of death should you happen fall into the water"



Geoff54 said:


> Nice attempt at a guilt trip. I see a great future for you in life insurance sales.


Ha, I spent my career going from one high risk startup to the next. I prefer high risk/high reward scenarios. The ability to measure risk and mitigate some of the risk with little effort is just smart.


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## Rossignols (Jul 2, 2013)

Minnesail said:


> On the other hand knowing it's going to cost you $50 to re-arm your Mustang would be a good incentive to keep the boat upright
> 
> I second kellysails, the kayak-cut PFDs work better for dinghies, plus they have pockets and such.


Yeah but that takes all the fun out of it. I equate it to my philosophy on skiing. If you don't fall once in a while, you were not trying hard enough. The best way to get better is to push yourself to try things you've never done. (within reason of course).
Thanks for the advise, I think a Kayak vest is the way to go.


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## sailordave (Jun 26, 2001)

I will add that more than a few people have been lost (IE DROWNED) while their boat was tied to the dock! I am always very cognizant of this fact when I'm getting on/off the boat, esp. since I'm usually carrying something. Make sure you know where a dock ladder is. Your marina DOES have a ladder nearby right?


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

How many carry a knife with your inflatable PFD? 

Now there's a conundrum


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## Bradhamlet (Nov 8, 2002)

I do wear a life jacket/inflatable with sailing knife, strobe light,VHF radio, laser flare, the whole ball of wax. (whistle too) Let me tell you why. One lovely evening I was sailing back from Annancapa Island without a life vest. The wind was fading but there was still a nice little swell coming in about every 8-9 seconds apx 3 ft. I was standing on the cockpit seats when a rather large wave came rolling through and I lost my balance and fell full force against the life lines. They held but I thought if I had fallen just a foot or to higher I would be overboard looking at a 4-5 mile swim in fading light in mid 60's water temps. Not good. It was mid week so there were no other boats in sight except for a distant freighter trucking North at about 20-25 kts. How could they have seen me fall? They couldn't. Any way, I do wear it all the time and this is just one reason why.

Brad
Lancer 36


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

T37Chef said:


> How many carry a knife with your inflatable PFD?
> 
> Now there's a conundrum


I always have my folding knife in my pocket while sailing, but this is the one that is attached to the inflatable pfd.


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## downeast450 (Jan 16, 2008)

Bradhamlet said:


> I do wear a life jacket/inflatable with sailing knife, strobe light,VHF radio, laser flare, the whole ball of wax. (whistle too) Let me tell you why. One lovely evening I was sailing back from Annancapa Island without a life vest. The wind was fading but there was still a nice little swell coming in about every 8-9 seconds apx 3 ft. I was standing on the cockpit seats when a rather large wave came rolling through and I lost my balance and fell full force against the life lines. They held but I thought if I had fallen just a foot or to higher I would be overboard looking at a 4-5 mile swim in fading light in mid 60's water temps. Not good. It was mid week so there were no other boats in sight except for a distant freighter trucking North at about 20-25 kts. How could they have seen me fall? They couldn't. Any way, I do wear it all the time and this is just one reason why.
> 
> Brad
> Lancer 36


Nothing like staring your own mortality in the face to focus your decisions. Your loved ones are better off, too. Thanks for the clear example.

Stay safe and keep smiling.

Down


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Bradhamlet said:


> I do wear a life jacket/inflatable with sailing knife, strobe light,VHF radio, laser flare, the whole ball of wax. (whistle too) Let me tell you why. One lovely evening I was sailing back from Annancapa Island without a life vest. The wind was fading but there was still a nice little swell coming in about every 8-9 seconds apx 3 ft. I was standing on the cockpit seats when a rather large wave came rolling through and I lost my balance and fell full force against the life lines. They held but I thought if I had fallen just a foot or to higher I would be overboard looking at a 4-5 mile swim in fading light in mid 60's water temps. Not good. It was mid week so there were no other boats in sight except for a distant freighter trucking North at about 20-25 kts. How could they have seen me fall? They couldn't. Any way, I do wear it all the time and this is just one reason why.
> 
> Brad
> Lancer 36


Yup, something like that will make a believer out of anyone, I suppose...

Still, that particular example seems an argument more in favor of wearing a harness/tether, instead of a life vest...


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Does the boat itself impact anyone's decision on whether to wear a life jacket all the time? Is there a difference between single handing a J24 and walking the decks of a cruise ship? If so, where is the breakpoint?


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

Minnewaska said:


> Does the boat itself impact anyone's decision on whether to wear a life jacket all the time? Is there a difference between single handing a J24 and walking the decks of a cruise ship? If so, where is the breakpoint?


Im gonna go out on a limb and say that everyone has different "breakpoint"?


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> Does the boat itself impact anyone's decision on whether to wear a life jacket all the time? Is there a difference between single handing a J24 and walking the decks of a cruise ship? If so, where is the breakpoint?


Of course it does... But I would suggest that deck ergonomics are far more important than boat size, that there is far less risk leaving the cockpit of a boat such as a Cape George 31, than many larger modern designs featuring narrow side decks, minimal toe rails, huge cockpit coamings, and sculpted and multi-faceted decks... But it also seems any such "breakpoint" will vary considerably from one individual to the next, and rightfully so...

I'll never be in the "wear one all the time" camp, as I made clear earlier in this thread, I honestly can't recall the last time I wore a vest... Probably on a delivery of a V-42 to the islands the year before last, and primarily to simply 'set an example' for my crew, one of whom was my oldest nephew... 

My attitude has always been akin to the most sensible view towards reefing: I will don a life vest, or a harness and tether, _whenever the thought occurs to me, that NOW might be a sensible time to do so..._ But, not before... 

It's worked fine for me so far, but others' mileage may vary, of course...


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## downeast450 (Jan 16, 2008)

Perhaps. "single handing" is a key?

I don't wear one all the time I am on he water either. Yesterday the Admiral and I went for a paddle on Merrymeeting Bay in one of our canoes , here in Maine. It is tidal and has considerable current in places. We had pfds in the boat. The boat is positively buoyant and if we capsized it (it happens to us from time to time) we could easily reach out and grab the boat. If the boat was going to be out of reach or I was alone or large waves and current were going to complicate getting back out of the water or we were a mile from shore.... You can stand up in most of Merryingmeeting Bay. Nuf said.

Maine wardens are searching for someone this morning. The boat was found around 6:00 pm yesterday on one of the lakes with the motor running, fishing lines still deployed. Someone has lost a child and possibly a dad and husband, brother or sister. Forever! Sad! I am guessing whoever is missing did not expect to be out of their boat. It does happen all the time. It was an "Accident".

Be safe when you can.

Down


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## blutoyz (Oct 28, 2012)

fryewe said:


> You can do whatever you want...
> 
> But I wear my PFD with light and whistle when underway and I don it before I leave the dock. I take it off when in the cabin unless it is just a duck-in to get or check something and when at anchor (my swim ladder is always deployed while at anchor).
> 
> ...


woohoo...party boat:laugher


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

T37Chef said:


> Im gonna go out on a limb and say that everyone has different "breakpoint"?


I would think so, but some say all the time, no matter what.


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## CarbonSink62 (Sep 29, 2011)

Minnewaska said:


> I would think so, but some say all the time, no matter what.


Then leaving Terra Firma is their breakpoint.


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## kellysails (Nov 1, 2008)

Minnewaska said:


> I would think so, but some say all the time, no matter what.


It's just easier to remove any judgement calls. It's just automatic now, we don't even think about it. The grand kids certainly get it. I hope long term when these kids grow up; when they think of boats they think PFD's. Got to start them early and consistency is the key.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Everyone should make year own choice and I'm fine with setting the example each feels important.

But, every boat, every time? Seems hard to believe, is all.


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## kellysails (Nov 1, 2008)

Minnewaska said:


> Everyone should make year own choice and I'm fine with setting the example each feels important.
> 
> But, every boat, every time? Seems hard to believe, is all.


Yup, it's just a joint decision the Admiral and I made. To each their own, absolutely. The acid test will be when we are bebopping between islands in the BVI in 82 degree water with an 85 degree warm wind coming at us. We spent a lot time down there sailing without PFD's. It is an easy decision in the PNW with 47 degree water and swift currents. I think our decision to have the grand kids active on the boat with us as much as possible was our key decision point.

To each their own though. I get it.


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## johnnyquest37 (Feb 16, 2012)

Once you are sailing in the BVIs, you'll probably shuck your BVD's, let alone your PFDs...


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Asap.


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## boatman61 (May 19, 2010)

No...
Nope... don't use those either...


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## Quickstep192 (Jan 6, 2001)

*Re: Do you wear a life jacket? So here's one for you...*

I wear my inflatable vest like I wear a seatbelt. It's pretty much automatic and very automatic if I'm out alone. I also wore it automatically when racing; not everyone chose to, but no one made fun of me or anything like that either.

Last week I was invited to go out on a good friend's powerboat. Although I've known him for a long time, I'd never been out on the boat with him before. I automatically planned to put on my inflatable vest, but thought twice about it, wondering if it would make him think I thought he was incompetent if I showed up wearing a life vest, so I left the vest in the bag. The trip was completely uneventful and he was in every way a competent seaman, but I'm curious; what would you have done in this circumstance - wear the vest or not?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I have no problem with anyone wearing a pfd while aboard, despite whether I do. It would never make me feel slighted.


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## kellysails (Nov 1, 2008)

*Re: Do you wear a life jacket? So here's one for you...*

Great point.

Interesting situation...I would wear one leaving the dock and again coming back into the dock. And any trips forward on the bow I would toss it on. I think if in the cabin, where most of the time is spent, I would take it off. The powerboaters that I know would smirk a bit "wise ass sailor" they would think but not an issue. They have all seen me come into and leave the dock with one on. I am in the minority in our marina in this regard, maybe 10% at most wear them. It is sensitive though, hmmm.



Quickstep192 said:


> I wear my inflatable vest like I wear a seatbelt. It's pretty much automatic and very automatic if I'm out alone. I also wore it automatically when racing; not everyone chose to, but no one made fun of me or anything like that either.
> 
> Last week I was invited to go out on a good friend's powerboat. Although I've known him for a long time, I'd never been out on the boat with him before. I automatically planned to put on my inflatable vest, but thought twice about it, wondering if it would make him think I thought he was incompetent if I showed up wearing a life vest, so I left the vest in the bag. The trip was completely uneventful and he was in every way a competent seaman, but I'm curious; what would you have done in this circumstance - wear the vest or not?


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

To each their own...

but no freaking way am I wearing a PFD on the docks...if I have a tendency to fall of the dock (sober), I will stop boating all together! If I can't walk down a dock without being concerned about drowning I have no business being on a boat in the first place.

Of course, I have a motorcycle too...many would not find that a very safe form of travel but I am willing to take the risk with a cautious attitude


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## kellysails (Nov 1, 2008)

T37Chef said:


> To each their own...
> 
> but no freaking way am I wearing a PFD on the docks...if I have a tendency to fall of the dock (sober), I will stop boating all together! If I can't walk down a dock without being concerned about drowning I have no business being on a boat in the first place.
> 
> Of course, I have a motorcycle too...many would not find that a very safe form of travel but I am willing to take the risk with a cautious attitude


Jeeze, I meant during the "act" of the boat leaving the dock and arriving at the dock. Not wearing while walking up and down the dock  yikes!


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

I wasn't necessarily reacting to your post, just a general note to self I suppose


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

Bradhamlet said:


> I do wear a life jacket/inflatable with sailing knife, strobe light,VHF radio, laser flare, the whole ball of wax. (whistle too) Let me tell you why. One lovely evening I was sailing back from Annancapa Island without a life vest. The wind was fading but there was still a nice little swell coming in about every 8-9 seconds apx 3 ft. I was standing on the cockpit seats when a rather large wave came rolling through and I lost my balance and fell full force against the life lines. They held but I thought if I had fallen just a foot or to higher I would be overboard looking at a 4-5 mile swim in fading light in mid 60's water temps. Not good. It was mid week so there were no other boats in sight except for a distant freighter trucking North at about 20-25 kts. How could they have seen me fall? They couldn't. Any way, I do wear it all the time and this is just one reason why.
> 
> Brad
> Lancer 36


I guess I'm just not so sure I would be pulling out a knife to cut something, a tether for example, with an inflated PFD? Seems like a bad idea 

The one Minniewaska points out though is interesting


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## Geoff54 (Oct 30, 2011)

Sorry for the slow response... I've been off not wearing my life jacket 

Sorry Down, I guess we are destined to butt head here.

Your edit: "Nice attempt at a guilt trip. I see a great future for you in life insurance sales.... (honestly!). " [/QUOTE]
I kind of resent that you edited my statement so it appears that "honestly!" applies to something that it clearly didn't. Are you going into competition with Smack? 



downeast450 said:


> It is a very serious matter. Down


No it's not. Life itself is not serious. If you take it too seriously, the joke is on you. We are all going to die... every one of us.



downeast450 said:


> Hopefully the consequences of an avoidable drowning accident are never something that you have to confront. Down


Too late for that, unfortunately - see what making assumptions can do for you? North sea at night and not missed until the next watch. To my surprise, the body was recovered three days later. A life jacket would have been useless and anyway, this was in the days when nobody put on a life jacket until you were sinking. kellysails was right about one thing - had he been wearing a life jacket he would have probably died of hypothermia rather than drowning.



downeast450 said:


> The crack about "life insurance" is thoughtless, at best. Down


Not really. A cheap shot maybe but it was an attempt to poke fun at the absurd, gilt laden accusation that anyone who didn't agree with kellysail's point of view was being abusive to their loved ones.

It's summer! we should be sailing rather than bitching at each other, eh?


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## kellysails (Nov 1, 2008)

Geoff54 said:


> kellysails was right about one thing - had he been wearing a life jacket he would have probably died of hypothermia rather than drowning.
> ?


ha,,, whew! I was worried I had it all wrong, now I feel better, thanks!


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## Geoff54 (Oct 30, 2011)

kellysails said:


> ...(to wear an inflatable PFD) you can dramatically reduce the risk of death should you happen fall into the water"


A very bold statement. Do you have any facts to back that up? A lot of people have fallen in without life jackets and are still walking about.



kellysails said:


> Ha, I spent my career going from one high risk startup to the next. I prefer high risk/high reward scenarios. The ability to measure risk and mitigate some of the risk with little effort is just smart.


Not really relevant, eh? I guess anyone who doesn't agree with you is just stupid. You just don't get it do you? I'll just take my lack of smarts elsewhere


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## kellysails (Nov 1, 2008)

Geoff54 said:


> It's summer! we should be sailing rather than bitching at each other, eh?


Absolutely, just completed my weekend plans for a meet up in Kingston WA marina. Weather is looking awesome this weekend! Light wind, that just means spinnaker time, fun!


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## Geoff54 (Oct 30, 2011)

kellysails said:


> ha,,, whew! I was worried I had it all wrong, now I feel better, thanks!


We have a name for people with your attitude but I'd get banned if I used it here. May someone important to you drown then at least you'd have a reason for your ridiculous attitude.


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## kellysails (Nov 1, 2008)

Geoff54 said:


> May someone important to you drown then at least you'd have a reason for your ridiculous attitude.


Wow, really? it's just my opinion.


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## Geoff54 (Oct 30, 2011)

adieu!!


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Geoff54 said:


> adieu!!


Whew....this means the unnecessary personal nasty diatribe is over ( grin)


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

johnnyquest37 said:


> Once you are sailing in the BVIs, you'll probably shuck your BVD's, let alone your PFDs...


I have heard this is the favored Sailnet technique to prevent people from anchoring too close.


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## engineer_sailor (Aug 27, 2011)

I recently read the book "Suddenly Overboard!" by Lochhass. Great read. Early in the book the author provides some statistics derived from available accident data. While hard to verify and/or assess context without the original data, the statistics seem to support PFD use. Someone during the thread asked about data on the subject so I'm not trying to convince anyone. A few key statistics:

83% of fatalities involving sailboats resulted from drowning

In 89% of sailing fatalities from drowning the victim did not have a PFD

50% of sailing fatalities occurred while actually sailing 

40% of sailing fatalities occurred with the boat upright and nearby

Josh


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## kellysails (Nov 1, 2008)

engineer_sailor said:


> I recently read the book "Suddenly Overboard!" by Lochhass. Great read. Early in the book the author provides some statistics derived from available accident data. While hard to verify and/or assess context without the original data, the statistics seem to support PFD use. Someone during the thread asked about data on the subject so I'm not trying to convince anyone. A few key statistics:
> 
> 83% of fatalities involving sailboats resulted from drowning
> 
> ...


Nice Josh! Yes, data is the key. Probably need to verify it but it is within 10% of what I have heard before. I have gotten out of the habit of being more data oriented.

A friend of mine at my last gig had a great tag line
"In God I trust, all others bring data please"


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

NOPE not ever. I do wear a harness when out of the cockpit in rough conditions. 

I have considered wearing an inflateable with a PLB strapped to it and probably should do so in very rough conditions. 

The sea temp where I sail is in the 80sf and I am a reasonably strong swimmer. 

BTW Have you ever tried to swim in a lifejacket?


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

engineer_sailor said:


> In 89% of sailing fatalities from drowning the victim did not have a PFD


I generally do wear a PFD so I'm just playing devil's advocate here, but&#8230;

We have the data that 89% of drowning victims were not wearing a PFD and presumably 11% were. But to put that in context we need to know the overall level of PFD usage. For example, if only 11% of people routinely wear a PFD, then the fact that 11% of drowning victims were wearing a PFD would indicate that PFDs have no effect on survival rate.


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## kellysails (Nov 1, 2008)

Minnesail said:


> I generally do wear a PFD so I'm just playing devil's advocate here, but&#8230;
> 
> We have the data that 89% of drowning victims were not wearing a PFD and presumably 11% were. But to put that in context we need to know the overall level of PFD usage. For example, if only 11% of people routinely wear a PFD, then the fact that 11% of drowning victims were wearing a PFD would indicate that PFDs have no effect on survival rate.


Getting data on those who were saved while wearing a PFD after falling overboard would be a definitive data point. That might be hard data to come by.

I read it as 11% died while still wearing a PFD.
Hypothermia got 'em is my "guess".


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## johnnyquest37 (Feb 16, 2012)

Or they were already dead when they hit the water, or they were caught under the boat. 

We are talking percentages here, but recalling the last stats I saw regarding boating accidients in the US, there was something like a dozen sailing related fatalities (that particular year). That's on par with the number of folks who keel over each year from eating raw oysters. Statistically, it appears to me that sailing is about as safe as staying home and watching TV. 

I'm not advocating a no-PFD policy. If you want to wear it, wear it. Just don't force me to wear one when I deem conditions safe enough not to. I promise not to criticise your decision if you promise not criticise mine. Next thing you know, we'll have granny-ninnies mandating we wear kevlar helmets full time just in case a meteorite decided to brain us. 

Sorry...I'm starting to get on a rant. Quick, get the rum!


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## kellysails (Nov 1, 2008)

johnnyquest37 said:


> Quick, get the rum!


Sounds like a plan to me


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

I heard Rufus had the Jug, now whether or not any rum is left, is a whole nuther issue!


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## Outrageous (Aug 18, 2010)

Here are some statistics:
Accident Statistics
the most current year is this file:
http://www.uscgboating.org/assets/1/workflow_staging/Page/705.PDF

Page 7 has what seems to be the relevant data. Note that sailboats didn't even make the Top 5 chart. 

Even with all this data, the incidents are not normalized for degree of use in the various conditions cited. Thus the difference between information and data.


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## -OvO- (Dec 31, 2011)

http://www.dft.gov.uk/mca/lifejacket_wear_behavioural_change_submitted_final_no_copyright-2.pdf


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## randyrhines (Jun 5, 2010)

Yes , I wore my old Canadian tire top of the line PFD faithfully, then I got one of the new mustang inflatables, the only difference I see other than comfort is that it requires me to pull a cord to activate and fill it with air, what if I'm injured going overboard , my old one dosent require any action if I'm disoriented. It's comfort verses safty with the inflatable one I bought, but even if it were self inflating there is still a possibility of failure with the inflatables that does not exist with a PFD.


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

Thirty years ago I had a LoneStar-13 dinghy and hardly ever work a life jacket and often had it tucked in the cubby. Last summer I sailed a 12 foot Paceship and wore it all the time. The boat didn't seem as stable or i was not as comfortable and for the first time I capsized in the middle of the lake. The guy with me didn't have his on, but fortunately it was near by.. I say fortunately because even though the boat had positive flotation, when it filled with water we couldn't bail it out.

I think I will wear a jacket all the time now.. To me it is like a seat belt, I might only be in one accident that I needed it... I just can't predict when that will be. On a boat, you never know if the time you go in the water if you are going to crack your head on the way over...

Ironically when I am in a motor boat I don't think of wearing them, of course if there was a lot of heeling I might change my mind.

I ride in a ferry several times a year... I don't wear one then.... but I ALWAYS look for where the life jackets are stored. I would do the same on a cruise ship


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## mattt (Aug 26, 2013)

I think you're supposed to attach your harness in such a way that you don't exit the boat ever.

I sail in the Puget Sound, and as has been mentioned over and over, its super cold year-round. My limbs would stop being useful to me in about 10 to 15 minutes in that water, so I wear a mustang inflatable at all times on deck. 

In Caribbean waters I'm less concerned.

However, I always always always bring the type IV throwable into the cockpit and ready to throw at a moment's notice. If someone goes in without a PFD, I want them to have something to grab within seconds.


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## -OvO- (Dec 31, 2011)

Harness didn't help this guy.

Yacht Cowrie Dancer (australian) In Trouble In Southern Ocean - Cruiser Log World Cruising & Sailing Forums

To be fair, the PFD didn't, either.


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## johnsail (Apr 4, 2000)

mattt said:


> I think you're supposed to attach your harness in such a way that you don't exit the boat ever.
> 
> I sail in the Puget Sound, and as has been mentioned over and over, its super cold year-round. My limbs would stop being useful to me in about 10 to 15 minutes in that water, so I wear a mustang inflatable at all times on deck.
> 
> ...


I sail in warmer waters on the East Coast and to and from Bermuda. My big problem is getting from the bottom of the companionway ladder to the deck, and then to behind the helm quickly yet securely. My personal rule is that any task requiring two hands presents at least an option, and often an obligation, to hook on with a safety harness with its "third hand," the tether. Two-handed jobs include: climbing up a ladder, stepping out of a companionway, making your way aft in a cockpit that may be crowded with lines or shipmates' legs, sliding around a large-diameter steering wheel, and then taking the helm.

This short exercise may seem easy on paper but it can be unsteady, especially if you have to stand upright. Here's where the safety harness (with PFD), tether, and jackline come into play. The backup is the cushion or Lifesling tossed to the swimmer by an alert shipmate.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

-OvO- said:


> Harness didn't help this guy.
> 
> Yacht Cowrie Dancer (australian) In Trouble In Southern Ocean - Cruiser Log World Cruising & Sailing Forums
> 
> To be fair, the PFD didn't, either.


Well the quote 


> The power of the wave ripped 55 year old Blackman overboard, even though he was attached to the yacht by his safety harness. He was not seen again.


Does not really make sense. I could see being injured, and even drowned if a huge wave hit you while tethered. Unless the tether actually failed, or the attachment point failed. It does not really go into detail, my guess would be that he had to reach something that was out of reach of the tether when trying to get the downed mizzen mast off the boat and disconnected the tether. A real shame.


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## Networker (May 7, 2013)

Dumb newbie question, but do auto inflatable PFD's inflate in rainstorms?


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

Networker said:


> Dumb newbie question, but do auto inflatable PFD's inflate in rainstorms?


Some are based on a dissolving tablet and they can inflate just from getting wet. Others are hydrostatic, which are based on water pressure, and they actually have to be underwater to inflate.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

miatapaul said:


> Unless the tether actually failed, or the attachment point failed. It does not really go into detail, my guess would be that he had to reach something that was out of reach of the tether when trying to get the downed mizzen mast off the boat and disconnected the tether. A real shame.


Everything has a load limit.
I remember reading that the hook on someone's teather straightened out under load.

http://offshore.ussailing.org/Assets/Offshore/SAS+Studies/Safety+At+Sea+Studies.pdf

Test Setup 
In this test, a harness was placed on a 220 pound dummy. Each tether to be tested was attached 
to the harness and the dummy was raised up to a quick release shackle such that when the 
shackle was released, the dummy would free fall 6.6 feet. Failure criteria include "flaws, defects, 
or deterioration after testing that would jeopardize the safety of the wearer".

Test Results

General Comments on the Tethers: 
We were somewhat surprised that there were so many tether failures. 47% of the tethers failed in 
such a way as to endanger the wearer. Failures were both in the hardware, stitching, or 
sometimes both. Build quality of the tethers varied considerably from company to company.

This was based on only a 6' free fall.
It is easy to imagine conditions that could exceed that by several times.
For example a wave grabs you and instead of having only 300 lbs on your tether you have, including water weight 1,000 lbs or more.

So yea tether is great, probably the best we have but the forces that hit you can exceed the strength of anything you would be willing to wear.

Also assuming you did remain attached to the boat during an extreem encounter what are the chances that all of your bones will be be intact.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

miatapaul said:


> Well the quote
> 
> Does not really make sense. I could see being injured, and even drowned if a huge wave hit you while tethered. Unless the tether actually failed, or the attachment point failed. It does not really go into detail, my guess would be that he had to reach something that was out of reach of the tether when trying to get the downed mizzen mast off the boat and disconnected the tether. A real shame.


Here, a better description of the accident:

"We broached the boat at one point, we lost the skipper overboard at that point. He was on the helm, he was tethered on, and he clung onto the back of the boat, and we caught another broach, and at that point, when we came up, at that point John had gone overboard....He said injuries and damage to the 17.5m ketch prevented the survivors from making a thorough search for their friend...Mr Blackman was wearing foul weather gear and a harness with an attached inflatable system when he was lost overboard. ''

'When we came up John was gone' - World - theage.com.au

Regards

Paulo


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

Do we suppose that the force of the wave snapped the tether? That would mean the force of the water on his body was 2000-4000 pounds, equivalent to strapping a 150 hp engine to his butt and blasting him through the water at ridiculous speed. Improbable. The force on his body was probably more in line with a serious wave break, perhaps 500-1000 pounds.

Do we suppose that the impact of his body against the anchor point, without any stretch in the tether, contributed a major part of the force? More probable. Flying across the deck at 8-10 knots could account for all the force.

Sail Delmarva: Dynamic Tethers

A combination? Certainly. However, it seems quite probably that tethers with a little give in them could prevent this sort of breakage. Making them even stronger probably won't help; if the forces on the body are more than 5000 pounds the impact would be fatal.


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## capt vimes (Dec 2, 2013)

pdqaltair said:


> Do we suppose that the force of the wave snapped the tether? That would mean the force of the water on his body was 2000-4000 pounds, equivalent to strapping a 150 hp engine to his butt and blasting him through the water at ridiculous speed. Improbable. The force on his body was probably more in line with a serious wave break, perhaps 500-1000 pounds.
> ...


where do you get these figures from?
a cubic meter of water weighs already 1 metric ton, if it comes rushing at you at a certain speed, the force on your body should be higher than the mere ~250-500 kg you mentioned... even if not all of the force is transferred onto your body since water is a fluid and "sloshes" around you...
tethers usually have a breaking load of 20000 N which equals to roughly ~2000 kg/m2...
the carabiners must have according to EU regulations at least 22000 N of breaking strength if they are meant to be used for alpine climbing and there are no others on the market... if they do not comply with this regulation, they have to be marked with "not for climbing" - you won't take one of those to tether you to a boat with... 

but you are right - if you get thrown around, the initial impact force on the tethers could easily be well above those breaking loads and a certain stretch in them would make them a lot safer...


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

pdqaltair said:


> Do we suppose that the force of the wave snapped the tether? That would mean the force of the water on his body was 2000-4000 pounds, equivalent to strapping a 150 hp engine to his butt and blasting him through the water at ridiculous speed. Improbable. The force on his body was probably more in line with a serious wave break, perhaps 500-1000 pounds.
> 
> Do we suppose that the impact of his body against the anchor point, without any stretch in the tether, contributed a major part of the force? More probable. Flying across the deck at 8-10 knots could account for all the force.
> 
> ...


Vimes is right. I don't know much about the subject but the forces that I have heard about that can be generated on a harness line are on the order of some few thousands of kgs. I believe also that you are right and at some point those forces are so big that can also have a deadly impact on a body.

I noticed a change here in what regards the lenght of the lines here that from around 1.5m passed to just a bit over 1 m with two tethers. I believe it has to do with that and the charges generated: they would be much smaller on a shorter line than on a bigger one.

Those short lines are more uncomfortable and impractical to use specially at the wheel or at the cockpit where its very short length makes you have to clip and unclip at all the time. I have the two types on my boat and i only use the short ones to go forward in very bad weather (2 times till know ).

Nice study:

http://sail-delmarva.blogspot.pt/2013/12/dynamic-tethers.html

A good new year to you,

Best regards

Paulo


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## Pegu club (Jun 10, 2012)

The Admiral and I wear self inflatables every time we go out, they are compact and generally unnoticeable while under sail, because as Bill Cosby said "never challenge worse"


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

this is my lifestyle, not my avocation. i have yet to fall into water...and i have been sailing almost 60 years.  
no, i do not wear a life jacket on board.
iff it gets stinky on me out in the ocean i have the option of so doing. but normally i donot wear one.

oh yeah..i am essentially on board 24/7/365. my boat is my HOME. been living on board since 1990.
do you wear life jackets when you use the bathtub in your homes..........


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

I am with Zeehag on this, long term liveaboard, never wear a lifejacket and only rarely feel the need to use a harness.

However I might wear one of these horse collar inflatable with a PLB as if I go over when I am singlehanded there is a chance of rescue if I can activate the PLB and stay afloat. Mind you the rescue services where I cruise often do not have money to fuel their boats..


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

capt vimes said:


> where do you get these figures from?
> a cubic meter of water weighs already 1 metric ton, if it comes rushing at you at a certain speed, the force on your body should be higher than the mere ~250-500 kg you mentioned... even if not all of the force is transferred onto your body since water is a fluid and "sloshes" around you...
> tethers usually have a breaking load of 20000 N which equals to roughly ~2000 kg/m2...
> the carabiners must have according to EU regulations at least 22000 N of breaking strength if they are meant to be used for alpine climbing and there are no others on the market... if they do not comply with this regulation, they have to be marked with "not for climbing" - you won't take one of those to tether you to a boat with...
> ...


I won't pretend they were carefully calculated, in part because we have no idea what hit the poor guy.

First, I chose 2000-4000 pounds as a first pass water force number because I suppose the tether failed at 5000 pounds (should have been that strong) and I wanted to leave something for impact. I could have used a larger figure.

I picked 150 hp because it might take about that to generate 4000 pounds bolard pull at those speeds. Outboards of that size are propped for high speed. 20-25 pounds per hp is a common starting point.

I did a quick calculation of water drag (F=1/2pv^2C), used 3 meters/s, an area of .7 meters, a Cd of 0.7, and got 490 pounds. We should add for skin drag, but it will be a smaller number. Check my work--I'm sure someone can estimate a better figure. Water is forceful, but not tons on a human body. I believe 500-1000 pounds is generous. Thus, most of the force came from tether impact, which was avoidable.

It just seems to me that tether impact is the greater portion and the only way to get to bone crushing figures. Yes, shorter tethers really help.


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## capt vimes (Dec 2, 2013)

Well... The impact energy calculates 1/2.m.v^2... (m is the mass, v is velocity)
That means that a cubic meter of water traveling at 2 m/sec (7.2 km/h) results roughly in 2000J or 2000 kg.m^2/sec^2 of kinetic energy which gets transferred fully onto a solid, immobile object...
A sailor standing on the foredeck is now not immobile, which results in the object of say 80 kg of mass getting accelerated to the speed of the wave because the mass of the man is rather small compared to the mass of the water...
That in result means he will be pushed into the tethers by 2100 J or 2100 kg.m^2/sec^2 plus additional pressure from the water still pushing the sailor...
If the tether now has no stretch, all of that energy is transferred via the harness to the sailor in an instant... If the man is stopped in a tenth of a second the force on the harness and therefore the sailor equals to something of 21 kg.m^2. Now divide this with the area of the harness in m^2 and you should get the actual pressure on your body from the harness in kg...

I hope i did not make any mistakes here... 
I think you have been right, the forces are really not that high as i initially thought...


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

Why not use rock climbing ropes for tethers? They have give. Because they're not flat and you'll slip?

I hate when people give that crap how you have to wear one because it's irresponsible to you mom or wife or whatever. They are a good idea in a lot of situations for sure but it seems to me for those times you have to wear one, cold water being the number one thing I'm reading, you'd be better off wearing a wetsuit. It provides floatation and keeps you warm. I find it irresponsible that anyone that feels that have a significant chance of going overboard and the water is cold would not wear a wetsuit.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

pdqaltair said:


> Do we suppose that the force of the wave snapped the tether? That would mean the force of the water on his body was 2000-4000 pounds, equivalent to strapping a 150 hp engine to his butt and blasting him through the water at ridiculous speed. Improbable. The force on his body was probably more in line with a serious wave break, perhaps 500-1000 pounds.
> 
> Do we suppose that the impact of his body against the anchor point, without any stretch in the tether, contributed a major part of the force? More probable. Flying across the deck at 8-10 knots could account for all the force.
> 
> ...


It seems I did not entirely understood your post. I thought that you were talking about 1000 pounds as the forces that are taken by a tether. If I understand correctly what you mean is that is the force if the tether is completely stretched. If a sailor is projected by the wave on a lose tether then that force can be multiplied several times, therefore the importance of short tethers.

That's more like it?

What I know is that a tether should have a breaking load resistance of about or over 2000 kg

You probably know this old study that revealed some frightening conclusions regarding tethers failures under dynamic charges?

*"We were somewhat surprised that there were so many tether failures. 47% of the tethers failed in 
such a way as to endanger the wearer. Failures were both in the hardware, stitching, or sometimes both."*

http://offshore.ussailing.org/Assets/Offshore/SAS+Studies/Safety+At+Sea+Studies.pdf

Even so on the conclusion they fail to recommend a minimum breaking load under static circumstances, one that could take into consideration dynamic ones.

Regards

Paulo


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## arknoah (Oct 31, 2010)

zeehag said:


> do you wear life jackets when you use the bathtub in your homes..........


Nope, I don't. Then again, I'm reasonably sure that my bathroom at home has little chance of sinking in the ocean while I'm in the shower.

When on board and out of the slip, we wear pfds -- inflatable for my wife and me, vests for everyone else. (inflatables can be expensive!)


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

capt vimes said:


> Well... The impact energy calculates 1/2.m.v^2... (m is the mass, v is velocity)
> That means that a cubic meter of water traveling at 2 m/sec (7.2 km/h) results roughly in 2000J or 2000 kg.m^2/sec^2 of kinetic energy which gets transferred fully onto a solid, immobile object...
> A sailor standing on the foredeck is now not immobile, which results in the object of say 80 kg of mass getting accelerated to the speed of the wave because the mass of the man is rather small compared to the mass of the water...
> That in result means he will be pushed into the tethers by 2100 J or 2100 kg.m^2/sec^2 plus additional pressure from the water still pushing the sailor...
> ...


I'm with you on the first part. Any mistakes were in the guessing about the scenario, which is all we can do. Since the impact part has been studied to death by the UIAA (climbing gear regulatory authority), I think it is simpler to detour to fall test data.

2000 jules is about equivalent to a UIAA test fall on a standard length tether (1.8 * 2 M * 50 kg * 9.8 = 1764 Jules. It is well known experimentally that 1" webbing cannot withstand that (only about 1100 joules for 2 meters of webbing), that 8 mm climbing rope can withstand that once, and that 10 mm climbing rope can withstand that ~ 10 falls, including a moderately sharp edge.

The impact force (experimental determined) if using a rigid object will exceed 4000 pounds with webbing and will be 1200-1600 pounds with climbing ropes. A harness and human body (which will deform a few inches) will reduce the impact about 100-500 pounds, depending on the example.

Since sometimes the harness fails, this further supports that the forces are very high. The military has found injuries become common at about 10 Gs in a full body harness; sailors have much less harness and more force.

-----------

Previously I had suggested that a Screamer (Yates) would be a good candidate for force reduction, but I withdraw that idea. The problem is that a Screamer is single-use and that lost MOBs were often during rollovers with repeated high impacts. An elastic tether would be more rugged in actual use. Screamers are fine for industry where only a single fall is contemplated; after that the guy kisses the ground, goes home and kisses the wife, and takes the rest of the week off.


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## capt vimes (Dec 2, 2013)

pdqaltair - i made some mistakes... 
J is not only kg.m²/sec² but also N.m and if we calculate now the force of a "fall" with 2100 J which is stopped within 10 cm you get 21000 N of impact force and that is not a small number...
and it is quite in accordance with this graph were the force is shown in relation to a "sturzfaktor" which is basically the height of the fall divided by the length of a rope - in our case this factor would be around 1 but the speed would be less than that of a free fall with 9.81 m/sec² acceleration:


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

If there were only such a thing as dynamic webbing. I looked briefly at some products sold as recovery straps and such, but they didn't have the stretch characteristics of dynamic rope. Rope is problematic because if you step on it it can roll. I'm happy enough using 8mm rope for my tethers, since it is too small to create much of a roll hazard and I'm not sailing the southern ocean. It is still tougher than webbing (can absorb ~ 50% more energy) and much easier on the ribs.

Perhaps dynamic rope for the helm work station only would make sense. It always seems to be the helmsman that breaks the tether (guys on the jackline have the jackline for energy absorption--they only need to worry about getting stuffed under the bow wave!).


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## NorthernPilgrim (Dec 28, 2013)

Yes, I wear an inflatable life jacket and tether when I sail alone, and, with crew, when conditions are anything less than calm. I know, if I go overboard, getting back on the boat will be a challenge and hypothermia could set in before I do, but it would give me a chance at survival, whereas watching the boat sail away will not.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

I just found these pictures from my neighbor's driveway after the last hurricane.

I wonder how much force was exerted on that piece of rock and concrete.
Wonder how much a tether would have helped to keep it in place.


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## billdix (Jan 3, 2014)

I believe we are all in agreement. I single hand 90% of the time in the Chesapeake bay. I wear it 90% of the time. I also trail a 100ft polypropylene line behind boat w/ a bowline tied off at end. Just in case I do fall off I can grab hold of line and hopefully drag myself back to boat. I have not tried that yet. You also must make sure you can climb back on boat if you do fall off. I DO NOT have a swim platform. I have a stowable ladder tied off a stantion that I can release and climb back on the boat. I also have a portable VHF radio tucked into my PFD on challenging days. . I do not have roller furling and when I go up front to pull down jib I feel safer w/ vest. Safe sailing!!


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## capt vimes (Dec 2, 2013)

billdix said:


> I believe we are all in agreement. I single hand 90% of the time in the Chesapeake bay. I wear it 90% of the time. I also trail a 100ft polypropylene line behind boat w/ a bowline tied off at end. Just in case I do fall off I can grab hold of line and hopefully drag myself back to boat. I have not tried that yet. You also must make sure you can climb back on boat if you do fall off. I DO NOT have a swim platform. I have a stowable ladder tied off a stantion that I can release and climb back on the boat. I also have a portable VHF radio tucked into my PFD on challenging days. . I do not have roller furling and when I go up front to pull down jib I feel safer w/ vest. Safe sailing!!


i went overboard once... the autopilot decided to tack, when i was still lying in the main on a close haul having a nice snooze there...  

nevertheless - we also had some sort of line towing just in case, and i can tell from my own experience that you just cannot imagine how bloody fast this line comes rushing past you...
even at only 5 kts, it is frightening when you up to your nose in water.
you must be really very, very desperate to try and grab this line especially if you have no gloves on.
even if you manage to get hold of your bowline by slinging an arm through, the chance of a dislocated shoulder or even worse an injury is very high!

and then comes the really tricky bit:
just imagine - your probably injured and at 5 kts, the speed will drag you under water and i doubt very much, that you would be able to drag yourself back to the boat. the resistance the water gives you is something you have to figure yourself once... 

btw:
when i eventually was back on board, we immediately undid that line.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

billdix said:


> I also trail a 100ft polypropylene line behind boat w/ a bowline tied off at end. Just in case I do fall off I can grab hold of line and hopefully drag myself back to boat.


Dream on... 

As Capt vimes attests, unless you go over when hove-to, or fore-reaching at under 2 knots, hauling yourself back aboard while under sail or power isn't gonna happen...

It's just _SO_ much simpler to focus on not falling off the boat to begin with...


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## billdix (Jan 3, 2014)

I understand. Yet I have read dragging a line is a good idea. Maybe my dragging behind boat will force a change in direction causing the boat to go into irons? then drag myself back? Never been overboard but thinking ahead


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## downeast450 (Jan 16, 2008)

I had the "opportunity" to re board my boat during an unplanned swim. Calm conditions. I never lost contact with the boat. I was wearing a Mustang self inflating life vest and didn't get wet enough to trigger it! I never went under water. Getting back aboard using the deployed rope ladder at the stern was still a challenge. I am installing a rigid, fold down ss ladder this spring! I want three rungs below water level when it is down. I am looking for an appropriate ladder. Nothing less makes sense to me now!

Down


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

billdix said:


> I understand. Yet I have read dragging a line is a good idea. Maybe my dragging behind boat will force a change in direction causing the boat to go into irons? then drag myself back? Never been overboard but thinking ahead


Yes, I think the only way trailing a tag line makes sense, is if it were rigged to trip a windvane or trigger an autopilot to auto-tack, or whatever...

Still, it's better to just stay on the boat...


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## Dave_E (Aug 7, 2013)

ALWAYS when under way. We bought ourselves some WM inflatables for Christmas. Nice switch from regular PFD's... don't even know you're wearing one after a few minutes.


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## Brewgyver (Dec 31, 2011)

northoceanbeach said:


> Deckvest by spin lock has both. It's $369 at West Marine. It looks the coolest too.


And, interestingly, NOT USCG approved.  Good thing to keep in mind, in terms of having enough APPROVED PFDs on board in case of inspection.

So, anybody know why these aren't approved???


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## rikhall (Feb 7, 2008)

downeast450 said:


> I am installing a rigid, fold down ss ladder this spring! I want three rungs below water level when it is down. I am looking for an appropriate ladder. Nothing less makes sense to me now!


That is exactly what we have - three steps below the water line and a folding ladder I can pull down if needs be. We found ours at Bacons in Annapolis.

(Small pic but you can see it.)










Rik


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Brewgyver said:


> So, anybody know why these aren't approved???


Because they haven't paid the ransom in the US. Many, including me, use them anyway and have some cheap legal pfd stuff in a locker.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Minnewaska said:


> Because they haven't paid the ransom in the US. Many, including me, use them anyway and have some cheap legal pfd stuff in a locker.


While it's fashionable to blame the US Govt for everything these days, don't you think that the poor performance of Spinlock Deckvest in real-world situations might just have something to do with it? I wouldn't pay the inflated price for that thing, no matter how cool it looks:

Report Cites Problems with Spinlock Deckvests - Inside Practical Sailor Blog Article



> The bladder on the Spinlock Deckvest (right) isn't integral to the vest as it is on most other designs like the Revere Comfortmax PFD Harness (left).


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

davidpm said:


> I just found these pictures from my neighbor's driveway after the last hurricane.
> 
> I wonder how much force was exerted on that piece of rock and concrete.
> Wonder how much a tether would have helped to keep it in place.


Please....

Given that it was already racked, little force was required. If the analogy was valid all surfers would be dead. You know this.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

Dave_E said:


> ALWAYS when under way. We bought ourselves some WM inflatables for Christmas. Nice switch from regular PFD's... don't even know you're wearing one after a few minutes.


If it were 100F you'd notice. Just saying.

A harness can be much cooler. None is cooler yet, if the weather fair. Oh well.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

TakeFive said:


> While it's fashionable to blame the US Govt for everything these days, don't you think that the poor performance of Spinlock Deckvest in real-world situations might just have something to do with it? I wouldn't pay the inflated price for that thing, no matter how cool it looks:
> 
> Report Cites Problems with Spinlock Deckvests - Inside Practical Sailor Blog Article


Good read. Thanks. Certainly, the advantages of a Spinlock have nothing to do with looking cool. Does it look cool? That's news to me and rather snide on your part, I just find it comfortable. I like the integrated harness, crotch straps included, replaceable bladder and easily maintained trigger and inflator. Not to mention comfort. It must be maintained to work properly. All vests do.

It wasn't clear if the deceased was wearing crotch straps, but they were also caught up in the rigging for a time, IIRC. At least when I bought mine, the straps came with the vest and I consider them mandatory, no matter the vest. Maybe some find crotch straps uncomfortable or don't snug them properly.

I did start to drift off in the US sailing report, so maybe they noted the recency of maintenance to their vests.

The suggestion that any vest be tested in the water, inflated, is a great one. I will bet 99% of boaters have never done so. One should have in-water practice climbing into a raft as well, which I now believe it mandatory in Safety at Sea. It was available but not mandatory, when I last took it.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Minnewaska said:


> Good read. Thanks. Certainly, the advantages of a Spinlock have nothing to do with looking cool. Does it look cool? That's news to me and rather snide on your part...


Not sure why you're directing this at me. I was referring to this post


northoceanbeach said:


> Deckvest by spin lock has both. It's $369 at West Marine. It looks the coolest too.


From the Practical Sailor pic and caption that I showed above, it sounds like there's a design deficiency with the Spinlock that makes it more likely to malfunction.

If I were looking to replace my WestMarine inflatable, I'd look closely at the Mustang MD3184 HIT vest/harness. A more traditional "suspenders" design for much less cost than the Spinlock, with the superior performance of the HIT mechanism. I tried one on at Safety at Sea training last spring, and it was very comfortable.

Until I go offshore, my current WM coastal vest is fine. I have a separate harness that I use when needed.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

TakeFive said:


> Not sure why you're directing this at me. I was referring to this post


Roger that. My apologies. Your post, however, quoted mine, not the other.



> From the Practical Sailor pic and caption that I showed above, it sounds like there's a design deficiency with the Spinlock that makes it more likely to malfunction.
> 
> If I were looking to replace my WestMarine inflatable, I'd look closely at the Mustang MD3184 HIT vest/harness. A more traditional "suspenders" design for much less cost than the Spinlock, with the superior performance of the HIT mechanism. I tried one on at Safety at Sea training last spring, and it was very comfortable.
> 
> Until I go offshore, my current WM coastal vest is fine. I have a separate harness that I use when needed.


Fit and comfort are individual. More power to whatever fits the best, as the willingness to wear it is probably the single greatest factor.

Integrated v. separate harnesses is also a personal preference. I offer that it seems to increase the odds one would have it on, when integrated. Again, to each their own.


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

No, I never do. My wife, who is not as good a swimmer, wears and inflatable one, when in precarious situations. 

I probably should get another inflatable, but I haven't yet, because I am a long time fitness swimmer and just feel so comfortable in the water. Of course, if I ever fell and got knocked out on the way in, I'd wish I had one.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

TakeFive said:


> I'd look closely at the Mustang MD3184 HIT vest/harness. A more traditional "suspenders" design for much less cost than the Spinlock, with the superior performance of the HIT mechanism. I tried one on at Safety at Sea training last spring, and it was very comfortable.


That's the model I have, and I like it. You barely know it's there. I haven't used the harness on a tether (yet), but I did use it to go up a mast and it worked quite well.

Do they make a crotch strap you can add to it?


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## Brewgyver (Dec 31, 2011)

Minnewaska said:


> Because they haven't paid the ransom in the US. Many, including me, use them anyway and have some cheap legal pfd stuff in a locker.


Thanks, Minne, I was afraid that was the answer. I've run across that kind of stuff in other areas, even within the U.S. (e.g., bogus "safety" testing required by individual states for firearms).


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