# Farr 395, J/120, J/109--any wisdom?



## jch33n (Oct 20, 2010)

Currently I am looking for a boat for around-the-buoy racing on the Chesapeake. I expect to also cruise around the Bay and maybe beyond the bay later. How far I will ultimately go I don't know. So now, I am considering Farr 395 (have seen some built in 2000-2002, hull # in the mid 20s), J/120 (1998-2001 vintage), or J/109 (2003 or slightly newer) -- relatively fast racer/cruisers. Performance-wise, Farr 395 appeals to me but I have some concerns about the known hull problems. (The potential candidates evidently all had the class-recommended modifications done.) The available J/109s tend to be newer than J/120 (can't afford a newer J/120). The early J/120s also had some hull (keel attachment) problems, but the problem evidently was addressed after the first 25 hulls. I have not found any serious problems common to J/109s mentioned. It is a bit smaller but appears to be still plenty fast (been on one but have not sailed one). It seems like a very nice size. (My wife will prefer this.) The gear presumably would be less expensive to maintain, and the sails are definitely not as heavy to lug around. (My wife will definitely prefer this.) However, with a racing crew on long races, it may be a bit more cramped. I've read a bit about C&C 110s (sprit version) but haven't pursued it as much, but perhaps I should. I've been on a C&C 115, and the interior looked beautiful. I assume that these boats are all offshore rated, but I have heard (sometimes from boat brokers selling Js) that J boats are more rugged. In theory, they are comparable in terms of their abilities to take the pounding. That's in theory, and I don't have enough experience to judge how much pounding they can really take, assuming, of course, that the hull and rigging are in good shape at the outset. BTW, I am not contemplating circumnavigating the globe, but anything can happen. Any wisdom? Thanks for any information, thoughts, or leads for other ideas. Jim


----------



## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

We JUST finished a race with several of the boats listed above.

I will not say that this is indicitive of the boat necessarily, because I am not sure the crews were evenly matched (did I say that nicely)?? SO, here is what I saw:

The fastest boat was the Tartan 4100. There are known hull problems with these boats too. In fact, the boat I saw had also had a hull repair done. But, they are beautiful performance boats and do pretty good in a race with enough crew.

The Farr 39 did ok. It still looked the faster boat and in different curcumstances, I think it would have outrun the Tartan. But the crew was pretty long in tooth on the Farr and the Tartan had like 15 people there to trim and throw over the side for rail meat!!! Come to think of it, not sure we counted that they finished with 15 people... hmmmmm (snicker).

A very good racing boat that is very fast and relatively inexpensive is the Henderson 30. Whew. I was surprised at how well she runs. Not great accomodations for cruising... to be forewarned. But for the money and the speed (PHRF around 40 I think), she is going to be a tough girl to beat. THere is one for sale in CA right now that I have to say, caught my eye. Even came with a trailoer if you want to start loading her up and getting mroe competitive. 

I will certainly fall in the minority here but this has been the discussion amongst the mods (in private) for a while now. In a perfect world, I would have two boats - one for cruising and one for racing. I liked the Melges for racing, but short of the 32, it would not be something I would take for any of the longer offshore races. John Pollard owned a Melges and he said it was a pretty wet ride and that would get pretty old after the first day for me. 

But for distance racing (offshore) if you really want to have fun, I think a trailer is about mandatory unless you have a crew to sail her all over for you. Seriously - consider that. Because if you have a trailer, you can enter into the Ft Lauderdale - Key West, Tampa Key west, Tampa - Havanna, Naples - Jamaica, (some great races out of Texas to Mexico and Key West or havanna... but I have not done them). Maybe even get into some of the Bermuda races??? But that would be local to you.

Problem I have found is that what I (me, not some people) think makes a good cruising boat, often does not line up well with a great buoy boat or distance racer. And if you get competitive and have to fight a PHRF against dry docked boats that are covered in carbon fiber, you will lose before you cross the start line (as we found out many times). 

SO there are my thoughts. I have raced several times on a j92 but not the others mentioned, though I have been on them and ewwed and awwed, but other can speak more intelligently about them. But I would not take either one of those J's cruising (my opinion... sorry). But I don't even care for the J42 for cruising so my opinion on them may need to be discarded. If you are stuck with the boats you metioned, I would choos the Farr. I have become a fan of their boats (thanks to Jeff who is our expert in these areas and owns a Farr, so see if he can help when he gets back). 

If you want opinins on a boat that is a good performance cruiser/racer, let me know and I will throw out some thoughts. Just be forewardned that I don't think many of them are really that competitive on a racing circut without a generous PHRF. Its flat out hard to beat a Melges or Henderson or Farr no matter what the correction.

Brian


----------



## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

The J/109s had a keel issuse in the early hulls that and who payed Jboats or TPI or the owner


----------



## jch33n (Oct 20, 2010)

Thanks, Brian and Tommays,

I agree that I am trying to find one boat to do more than it is optimum for: I suspect that most of these boats are probably best for club races and short cruises (in and around Chesapeake Bay and Delmarva Peninsula for me). For now, I am considering a good racer (around-the-buoy and up and down the Bay) and seeing how far I can take it in terms of my racing and cruising skills with one of these racer/cruisers. At this point in my search, my main concern is the boat's ability to weather tough situations if I should encounter one and whether there are known problems common to a particular boat. In particular, I'd like to know what it takes to overcome the Farr 395 hull problem and if the typical fixes are adequate. Any information and thoughts on that would be appreciated.

I will certainly look into Henderson 30 (I don't think I have seen one here) and into J/109's hull problems. (I hadn't heard that before -- I would have thought JBoats would have fixed that type of problems after the J/120s).

Yes, it would be hard to judge the relative speed if the crew work is uneven. It's hard to sail a boat to its numbers, but if everyone did, Farr 395 might be a bit faster on flat waters than J/120 and vice versa in heavier seas, from the weight differentials and somewhat different hull shapes, etc.


----------



## jch33n (Oct 20, 2010)

Another thing. There are a number of dry sailed boats in this area (some with paid crew members). That would be way out of my league! I suppose cleaning the bottom frequently is no picnic in terms of cost, either. I am starting with baby steps, through.


----------



## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

THe J's IMHO would be the better offshore boat. There are a few local ones that have done the Vic-Maui. THere is a local ie salish sea/puget/sound 109 on its way around the globe. I believe there is a blog clickable on the local -boat dealers web site.

We also have a F395 local. Very pretty boat. and fast! It would be on a short list for me if I was looking for a 40' boat. THere are also some Farr 39's local, different creature than the 395. More like a M32 on steroids. The 395 is more like a J120 but with a few less interior niceties. 

Frankly, a Farr 39 or 395 should be able to spank a T4100! I would say the T had a better crew in some way shape or form. The F395 recently spanked a few F39's in a local race at my YC. 

Marty


----------



## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

If anyone is really bored, here are a bunch of pics of our last race. You will see that Farr, Henderson, Tartan, and lots others in there.

2010 Summerset Regatta | news-press.com | Southwest Florida Sports | The News-Press

Brian


----------



## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

jch33n said:


> Thanks, Brian and Tommays,
> 
> I agree that I am trying to find one boat to do more than it is optimum for: I suspect that most of these boats are probably best for club races and short cruises (in and around Chesapeake Bay and Delmarva Peninsula for me). For now, I am considering a good racer (around-the-buoy and up and down the Bay) and seeing how far I can take it in terms of my racing and cruising skills with one of these racer/cruisers. At this point in my search, my main concern is the boat's ability to weather tough situations if I should encounter one and whether there are known problems common to a particular boat. In particular, I'd like to know what it takes to overcome the Farr 395 hull problem and if the typical fixes are adequate. Any information and thoughts on that would be appreciated.
> 
> ...


Given that, I would put the Henderson 30 on my very, very short list. Minimal investment and fast. You would be a competitor. You will notice it is a 30 foot boat, but she races with much larger boats. She is not as popular as some of the others, but that might pay to your advantage. Issues will be on the distance races where waterline kicks in. But on a buoy race, that shorter and more nimble boat may take the marks.

Just some thoughts.

Brian


----------



## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Brian,

You have some points re the Henderson. There are a few here in PugetSOund too. WHile quicker than my 30' Jeanneau, at a race last weekend and March, I was able to keep up and sometimes out do some upwards of 38-44' boats on short legs, but when the legs got into the 2-3+ mile range, WL took over. I had no problems last spring as did a Cat30 with the 2 40+foot Catalina's on shorter leg courses, usually not only beating them handily on handicap, usually boat for boat. BUT, both the C30 and I had our race crews, not sure the bigger cats had a race crew per say.

Marty


----------



## jch33n (Oct 20, 2010)

tommays said:


> The J/109s had a keel issuse in the early hulls that and who payed Jboats or TPI or the owner


I did some looking around and found that there are some builder supplied repair kits to be installed, evidently at the builder's expense. It is sort of a recall.


----------



## paulk (Jun 2, 2000)

The J120 at our club raced to Bermuda for, I think, it's fifth time this past June. That would seem to indicate pretty solid construction. Her results also indicate a fast boat; they win a good bit of silver most seasons 

The kind of sailing you describe wanting to do is one of the reasons J/109's are popular. I crewed on one at Block Island Race Week in June, and the owner cruised there again with his wife at the end of July. There are three at our club now, after one member replaced his J/92 with one. J/boat construction seems to be pretty good overall. Older is also a possible way to go. Our '81 J/36 is still holding up well, and holding our own against the newer boats. We got a third and a second in series racing this summer, in a fleet that includes the aforementioned J/109's, a J/105, a Beneteau 36.7, some C&C's and an SC37. We're thinking a new set of sails (our main is 8 years old) may help bump us up a notch.


----------



## timeandtide (Oct 23, 2010)

I've raced inshore and offshore on J109s, J120s and Farr395s over past 4 years so have a fairly good feel for each. Firstly all are good boats so I don't think you can go wrong. They are however not like for like comparisons. The J109 is great for a couple since it is less powerful. It will be cheaper to maintain (sails & berthing) and probably newer. Being smaller it does not have the room of the bigger boats for cruising or crew accomm if you plan to race offshore.

The J120 is very popular so you won't have diffculty finding advice/benchmarks on how best to set yourself up. It's solid and fast upwind and down. Being bigger than the J109 you'll also feel more comfortable in less than ideal conditions and of course get their faster.
The Farr395 is less popular due to something like only 40 or so being built. I prefer the interior to the J120 but this is personal. It is lighter yet carries more sail upwind than a J120. If you plan to race you will be seeing more King 40s, J133s, X41s etc than J120s in your division.

For a given race crew the Farr395 will be faster than a J120 will be faster than a J109. If you have a full crew and want to push hard - go with the Farr395 it hauls on the course but is comfortable for the BBQ afterwards. If you want to cruise/race shorthanded I'd say J109. A bit of both with a mixed crew the J120 sits nicely in between.

Re: build quality. I've not seen anything of lingering major concern on any of them. Yep there were some problems - they were addressed but perhaps just as importantly the problem was admitted and warnings issues. Better the devil you know.

As I said earlier - all good boats an you'd be a proud owner of any of them.

My vote given I like to race first and cruise second. I like to go offshore. I usually race in a crew of 7 or 8 but sometimes we get 12. I like to finish sooner so I can get a good berth and get home sooner. In a blow I like to be on a bigger faster boat - to get home sooner, stay drier and feel safer. I like a boat that sleeps 10 if it really has to. I like to hit 20kts (but not for too long). So for me I'd chose the Farr395.


----------



## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

This one could be an option: Very good racing results in Europe. It is an offshore boat with a great cruising interior:

2006 Salona Yachts Salona 37 Sail Boat For Sale - www.pnb.yachtworld.com

Regards

Paulo


----------



## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

blt2ski said:


> THe J's IMHO would be the better offshore boat. There are a few local ones that have done the Vic-Maui. THere is a local ie salish sea/puget/sound 109 on its way around the globe. I believe there is a blog clickable on the local -boat dealers web site.
> 
> We also have a F395 local. Very pretty boat. and fast! It would be on a short list for me if I was looking for a 40' boat. THere are also some Farr 39's local, different creature than the 395. More like a M32 on steroids. The 395 is more like a J120 but with a few less interior niceties.
> 
> ...


A Tartan 4100 will be much slower than all the boats the OP mentioned...

There are at least three or four versions of the Farr 39 around. For dual purpose, the Cookson version might be a consideration... all rate around 18 phrf. A Farr 39 M/L is not a boat you'd want to cruise. All have pretty big sail bills to stay competitive. _(Marty, all of the local 39's wished they were a M-32 on steroids...  The Farrs owe them 6 seconds a mile, and they're nearly impossible to beat boat for boat. )_

395, the key is to find one that's had the typical Carrol Marine issues addressed. If I recall, the 395's had a number of them, but once they're sorted out, you're good to go.

What about a Sydney or an Aerodyne 38? Maybe out of budget?

And the Henderson... it's a sport boat. If one were going that route, why not a Farr 30? Probably more around and a chance to race OD.


----------



## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Mark,

Re the T4100 thought, you have to read CD's 2nd post in this thread, where he mentions a T4100 out ran an F39! altho it may have been the crew too! So yes, a T4100 should get spanked by F39's!

Then as you point out, I probably should have used an M/F30 as the boat on steroids per say. Then again, maybe not speed wise, but the boats interior etc is on steroids. 

Looks like you are doing ok at the GP this weekend on VC. Hopefully you can stay ahead of shrek and catch tachyon. The other boats I know are not doing well, ie kiwi is getting spanked, Shoot the moon is not doing as well as they have been at WBRW and PSSC a few weeks back.

off to a ski intructor dryland clinic.............booooooooring!


----------



## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

Not to hijack, but I have to talk to you about the skiing thing... I'll PM when I have a moment.


----------

