# Seller agreed to offer, but set a clause,"no discounts after survey"



## nmejicano (Sep 26, 2012)

I was looking for a Gemini 105 MC, I looked at several during the last year and found many in a sad shape and a few with exaggerated prices. Last Saturday, while inspecting an MC, we were pointed toward a 1996 M and we were very impressed with the boat, immaculate maintained with many extras, clean engine, new wiring, a 2100 dollar Garmin, a brand new dinghy, new upholstery, a new AC unit etc, etc, etc. So far the best boat we have seen. We offered the owner 15% less than the asking price, he counter offered and we offered 10% less than the asking price and he accepted. Here is the question and dilemma. On the Purchase and Sell Agreement accepting my offer he wrote, "No price reduction after survey". I know I can reject the boat, but then I will be out of the cost of the survey, haul out and my traveling expenses for an out of State trip. What do you guys suggest?
Thanks


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## Summit_Elan (Mar 17, 2012)

*Seller agreed to offer, but set a clause,"no discounts after survey"*

You can offer a price reduction and he can say yes or no. "Yes" and he sells the boat, no and you can buy it at the contract price or he can take his chances again on the open market.

Don't let that clause scare you.

Elan


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## alex_sauvage (Aug 31, 2012)

If it's not a secret what was the asking price? Or "selling" for that matter?


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## sailak (Apr 15, 2007)

That clause would kind of negate part of the reason to get a survey -- or sea trial.

Make the sale conditional on a survey with no issues and a succesful sea trial.

If you don't like whats found on the survey you can offer less, seller can take it or not.


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

if you are ok with the price and they find things on the survey, then don't buy until the problems are all repaired to your satisfaction. it's a buyers market
Counter offer with the same price but with your own clause that it passes the survey 100%


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## Squidd (Sep 26, 2011)

So he already dropped his selling price and "now" you want to add(subtract) survey and sea trial discounts on top....??Isn't that double dipping...?

Seems you should start at the "asking price...subtract the defects noted in survey/sea trial (which may be great or inconsequential) and then "discount" the offer even more if you feel lucky...

That's like negotiating best price on a new car and "then" asking how much for my trade in...


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## Sumner10 (Dec 10, 2008)

*Re: Seller agreed to offer, but set a clause,"no discounts after survey"*



Summit_Elan said:


> You can offer a price reduction and he can say yes or no. "Yes" and he sells the boat, no and you can buy it at the contract price or he can take his chances again on the open market.
> 
> Don't let that clause scare you.
> 
> Elan


I agree and get the haul-out. We didn't as I believed some work orders that were misleading and we didn't see the need for the haul-out. After buying and getting the boat hauled there were bottom problems that have resulted in about $3000 in repairs we didn't count on. If we would of hauled the boat the need for those repairs could of been cause for us to not take the boat or put in a new offer and like Elan said he then would of had to of made a decision,

Sum

-----------------------------------

Our 37 Endeavour --- Our 26 MacGregor --- Trips With Both


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## americanfrog (Sep 6, 2012)

as long as you can back out of the deal and recover your deposit if the survey uncovers issues you are fine. as others have said you can make a counter then. The key is for the sale to be subject to a satisfying survey so you're no locked in a bad boat.


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

Squidd said:


> So he already dropped his selling price and "now" you want to add(subtract) survey and sea trial discounts on top....??Isn't that double dipping...?
> 
> Seems you should start at the "asking price...subtract the defects noted in survey/sea trial (which may be great or inconsequential) and then "discount" the offer even more if you feel lucky...
> 
> That's like negotiating best price on a new car and "then" asking how much for my trade in...


thats the way it works with boats .Why would you pay for a survey before they except your offer?


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

Squidd said:


> That's like negotiating best price on a new car and "then" asking how much for my trade in...


Um, sorry, but this is the RIGHT way to buy a car... They can offer you squat for your trade, or no change on MSRP, but if you negotiate the price of the car, then you see right away where they are making their money if they offer a terrible trade in price.

You either A) haggle the price of the new car, THEN B) haggle the trade in, or you haggle for a combined number that the salespeople would rather do so they can BURRY THE BUYER with numbers (this is a VERY old car sales tactic, and if they pull it on me I walk).

Nothing wrong with offering to buy the boat for X, assuming it in as good of condition as it "appears," by his non-expert opinion. If he then surveys the boat (at HIS expense), and finds NOPE that pristine motor is blown, then guess what, it was a "SURPRISE" he should offer a lower price based on that.

How is this any different than offering a price on a house, acceptance of the offer, then inspection of said house, and the inspector says GUESS WHAT there are termites? You telling me he's bound by his offer? for something he couldn't see? What's the point of an inspector again?


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## IslanderGuy (Apr 26, 2008)

I think it's a fine clause, and doesn't really change the facts of the deal. 

Without the clause, he has no obligation to change the price based on the survey, you can ask for a discount, but he can still say no. He's just letting you know up front he doesn't want to haggle.

I sometimes think people take the whole haggle after a survey thing to far very often. For instance, if the price is already set to reflect an issue, you can't expect the price to be reduced after the survey confirms the issue. Surveys help you look for major things that might not be known or disclosed. If there's something major on the survey that wasn't known before, the buyer decides if its a deal breaker, and the owner has the option (not obligation) to change his asking price if he feels it's warranted.

For instance, when we bought our boat, the previous owner had it for 27 years, and had not replaced the rigging. He told us that, we knew it needed to be replaced ASAP before we had a survey done, and we knew the price reflected that. We couldn't very well ask for a discount for the rig when the price was more then fair with a bad rig...

Bottom line, don't sweat it. If there's nothing new on the survey, and the price still seems fair given the condition of the boat, buy it. If the survey turns up a few things that are major, and now the price no longer seems fair, walk away. If they owner then sees that his price isn't fair, given the major issues discovered he didn't know about, perhaps he'll change his mind and lower the asking price after all to reflect the new information.


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## svHyLyte (Nov 13, 2008)

The Seller's caveat is kind of meaningless other than putting you on notice that he/she doesn't intend to reduce the price further if you do not accept the Survey/Sea Trial "as is". In fact, however, if a major flaw is discovered (unlikely given your description of the yacht), it is something he/she will have to correct or, if not, disclose to the next prospective buyer who will certainly adjust their price accordingly. Considering carrying costs alone, a negotiated price adjustment with you, if reasonable, is more sensible. On the other hand, it is not uncommon to find things that do need correction/repair during a routine survey of a good boat--out of date Fire Extinguishers, Flares and the like, battery cable covers, battery tie-downs etc.--that are not material and really have little/no effect on the value of the yacht but may involve some costs to "correct". The unfortunate fact is that there is always something that needs correction on every boat, bar none. It is the nature of the beast. Further, get behind the idea that you will likely spend 10% to 20% of the purchase price of the yacht for upgrades/repairs in the first year of so of your ownership of the yacht.

FWIW...


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

That would be fine for any obvious defects - what you see is what you buy.

It is not acceptable for latent defects. If the survey reveals recommendations that you could not have reasonably discovered by your thorough pre-contract inspection, then you and the seller should be willing to re-negotiate, especially if you have reason to believe the seller must have known about the defects.

If you are using the standard broker's contract as some members advise, you have very little recourse in any event, since the contract is largely conditional until after the survey takes place (and you have already spent hundreds or thousands of dollars, thus putting you over the proverbial barrell). In this buyer's market, I have advocated using a buyer's contract that requires the seller to reveal known latent defects, among other things.

Change the clause to discover the seller's willingness to allow re-negotiations for recommendations concerning latent defects revealed by the marine survey, or walk. Othewise you are out all the costs to survey the boat with no expectation of any re-negotiation.

An honest, reasonable seller should be willing to agree to that because he or she would be morally (and perhaps legally) obliged to reveal the latent physical defect to the next buyer (or face a fraud-in-the-inducement claim for the buyer's survey costs and expenses - depending on the contract used).


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## SimonV (Jul 6, 2006)

I have never seen a survey come out 100% positive, and It would take a very brave or stupid surveyor to give one.


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## Tim R. (Mar 23, 2003)

The problem is that brokers will generally not list what is wrong with a boat. Their hope is that you pay asking price and skip the survey. That only happens in fairly-tale land.

When I sold my last two boats, I clearly stated what was wrong with the boats and included that in the asking price. Anything above and beyond those issues could be negotiated after the survey.

Both boats sold for asking price or within 2% and for at least 10% more than asking price of YW boats. Very little haggling, no brokers, happy buyer and seller. Nice and clean.

I bought my last boat from a private owner the same way. He used the same technique of listing what the boat needed and included it in the asking price.

The whole yacht broker business would work much better if they used this method and had buyers/sellers with realistic expectations.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

As stated, that clause does not technically change anything. No contract ever says "post survey adjustments are welcome"

What they're telling you is they are going to be hard arses. To be fair, there are many buyers that use the survey to chew down a reasonable price, despite it only identifying the obvious. I sympathize with sellers that have to deal with that. I've seen it proposed by some on this board. It isn't honest.

However, I would have a conversation with the seller about latent undisclosed defects they may be unaware of, if any. If zero change is zero change, despite potentially finding a fatal flaw, you have your risk well identified. They may admit they just won't accept nickle and dime stuff that you should have noticed yourself.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

p.s. I once put a deposit on a boat, flew to the caribbean, witnessed the survey and rejected the boat, even thought the seller was fully willing to correct the defects. I just didn't like how the boat seemed like she was treated. I was more concerned that it would become a maintenance dock queen down the road. Lost some money on the survey, but would have lost more. Got my deposit back. That's the idea behind a survey.


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

Doesn't mean a thing, you can still walk away - assuming you aren't leaving a deposit behind. 
If you've made a deposit - and try to haggle post survey - you might lose the deposit if it is clearly stated to be non-refundable.


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## Squidd (Sep 26, 2011)

Minnewaska said:


> To be fair, there are many buyers that use the survey to chew down a reasonable price, despite it only identifying the obvious. I sympathize with sellers that have to deal with that. I've seen it proposed by some on this board. It isn't honest..


This is what I was alluding to as "double dipping"....

"YOU" are the primary value assor in the transaction...you looked the boat over and you made the offer...

If accepted that should be the selling price....

The survey (and the home inspector) are just there to cover all the bases and make sure there were no hidden or undiscovered , major, defeciencies which may affect the value of said item...

If found, that would negate the deal, period...

And then it's time to start a "new" offer on what is now known...seller may want to correct to original offer specs, or take repairs in account when "you" make new offer...

But that is major hidden/unknown issues (deal breakers) not the mundane and obvious and easily recognizeable issues (which were taken into account in the "first" offer....


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## saillife (Jun 25, 2006)

Squidd said:


> And then it's time to start a "new" offer on what is now known...seller may want to correct to original offer specs, or take repairs in account when "you" make new offer...
> 
> But that is major hidden/unknown issues (deal breakers) not the mundane and obvious and easily recognizeable issues (which were taken into account in the "first" offer....


You can say the deal has started over but, that's just semantics. I think you're actually in agreement with me and other posters. I don't believe anyone is saying you should try to get a lower price because of an out of date fire extinguisher but, if there is damage below water line, substandard wiring, engine has obvious problems.....

When I last sold a house I had the buyer try to wear me down on silly things after the survey. My response was take it or leave it. He took it.

I've walked from a boat after survey. seller was there and argued with the surveyor the entire day. Asking top dollar and obviously not willing to come down on problems the survey found, split rudder, delamination in glass below water line (plywood below water line to boot, old tartan 37). Owner struck me as kind of person to put a penny in a fuse box.

Friend walked after hearing that's my final counter offer on a 47' calibre. Two months later owner was calling him and asking why he hadn't heard anything. I ended up helping him sail it back from Trinidad. Point is these things are always negotiable and one shouldn't let a statement like what started this thread deter you from going ahead.


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## jasn (Aug 8, 2012)

There's no reason to put this into the contract because the seller always has the right to offer "no discounts after survey". Maybe they've been "burned" before where they tried to make a deal and the buyer came back with a bunch of discount demands once the survey was completed. However, again, the seller has the right to look the buyer in the eye at that point and say no to any discount demands they produce.

As others have pointed out, you have the right to reject this deal after the survey, *for any reason*. And if you reject _this_ deal, you are certainly able to offer the seller a _new_ deal, based on the new information. It strikes me that this is just as silly as you writing a clause into the contract stating that you can reject the deal for any reason at all.

A long time ago I was moving from New Orleans to the Boston area, and I was selling the stuff I didn't want to bring with me. This included a cheap weight bench and set of weights. I had listed them for 50.00 knowing full well that I wanted to get rid of them, and they were at least worth that much. I figured that 50.00 was the bare minimum price to make the transaction worth my while. Any lower and it would have been easier to just donate or trash it.

The first call I got, (the minute the ad hit the street), was from someone who setup an appointment to see them that morning. When he arrived he starting pointing out how the bench wasn't a modern design, and that he could buy cast iron weights for .25 cents a pound, and on and on. I just waited him out and when he stopped talking I asked him, "So how much do you want to offer me for the set?". He said, "25.00 dollars". I told him, "Thanks, but I want 50.00. I've got your number and if I can't find someone to buy the set for 50.00, I'll call you back." He looked hurt that I hadn't agreed with him and sold him the set for 1/2 what I was asking. The very next guy that showed up within 60 seconds, asked me what I wanted, I said 50.00 dollars, and he said I'll take 'em.

Both parties should feel empowered in a deal, because they actually are.

Good Luck..


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

I agree the clause is of no particular effect, I'd proceed. Any post-survey reduction in price is always subject to negotiation, clause or not, and the buyer has an absolute power to say NO. to a reduction.

Even with the clause, you want a reduction for cause, the seller has to make the same decision they would, without the clause. I'd call it just a little gamesmanship, ignore it.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

The seller is just telling you that you've negotiated your best price and there is no more room. 

If you want the boat go for the survey. Remember the survey, for all intense & purposes, is so you can get insurance and know the boat is safe. 

They are not intended, as many people try to use them, as a further negotiation tool. Sounds to me like the seller is an experienced seller and been through the nickle & dime dance before.


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## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

Squidd said:


> So he already dropped his selling price and "now" you want to add(subtract) survey and sea trial discounts on top....??Isn't that double dipping...?
> 
> Seems you should start at the "asking price...subtract the defects noted in survey/sea trial (which may be great or inconsequential) and then "discount" the offer even more if you feel lucky...
> 
> That's like negotiating best price on a new car and "then" asking how much for my trade in...


No that's not double dipping and its exaclty how both of our boat purchases and out boat sale transpired.

You make an offer based on your evaluation of the boat in the current market assuming what YOU know about the boat at that point. After the survey you know more and may want to reevaluate your offer. If a seller will not negotiate further, the buyer may suck it up and buy the boat warts and all or consider the investment in the survey a best money ever spent and move on to a better bet.


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## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

sailingfool said:


> I agree the clause is of no particular effect, I'd proceed. Any post-survey reduction in price is always subject to negotiation, clause or not, and the buyer has an absolute power to say NO. to a reduction.
> 
> Even with the clause, you want a reduction for cause, the seller has to make the same decision they would, without the clause. I'd call it just a little gamesmanship, ignore it.


I fully agree with this assesment.

When you've come to the point of surveying a boat, you're at the point of "hold your nose and jump in". If the survey turns up unexpected warts you can still make a lower offer or walk, knowing the survery cost was really a savings.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

Maine Sail said:


> .... Sounds to me like the seller is an experienced seller and been through the nickle & dime dance before.


All true, but if a substantial un-disclosed defect is found, say delaminated decks, the negotiation will start again, clause or not. It has too, as the finding lowers the value of the boat... and the seller will largely have to suck that fact up.


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## steve77 (Aug 5, 2010)

sailingfool said:


> All true, but if a substantial un-disclosed defect is found, say delaminated decks, the negotiation will start again, clause or not. It has too, as the finding lowers the value of the boat... and the seller will largely have to suck that fact up.


I'm in the process of (hopefully) buying a boat and this is exactly what has happened. The sale is being handled by a broker, there were a few known issues that I was made aware of, and after looking at the boat I made my offer, which was accepted. The survey found high moisture readings on the deck, and one area in particular that the surveyor believed was delaminated. All parties agreed to have a boatyard (one that we both had used before) look at the boat and provide an estimate to repair the deck. The yard provided the estimate, they did not believe there was any delamination. Because of the conflicting opinions, the broker arranged for the yard to go ahead and take some core samples to get a clearer picture of the situation (I'm waiting on the results).

The survey turned up a few other issues that prevented doing a sea trial (the boat has been on the hard for a year) and the current owner is going to have those addressed. The estimate that we eventually get from the yard is going to be used to negotiate a new purchase price. In this situation the seller would have to deal with the deck issues, either with this sale now or with someone else who is interested in buying the boat. So saying that the price is firm regardless of what the survey finds is kind of pointless (which the seller I'm dealing with did not do) if he really wants to sell the boat.


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## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

This is exactly how a home inspection provision would work in a P&S contract. You don't get the right to deduct from the purchase price for things found in the inspection--you get the right to walk away.

Practically speaking, the seller is going to make a price accommodation or fix the issue, because if you walk then the next buyer is bound to find the same issue. Even more, now the seller knows about the issue and has to consider whether he'd need to disclose it to a future buyer.

Ever see this Gemini for sale? The Slapdash | No Fixed Address


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Bottom line, Do you think that you want _this_ boat for that price? If so, put a refundable deposit on it, and have it surveyed.

After the survey, ask yourself the same question. If the answer is still yes, proceed to close the deal. If not, get your deposit back and walk away. Consider the survey an education expense.


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

Maine Sail said:


> Remember the survey, for all intense & purposes, is so you can get insurance and know the boat is safe.


I have to disagree. Maybe if you are highly experienced with working on boats, seeing the different kinds of things that can be wrong with them, and have a good idea what's involved in fixing those sorts of things, then this might be true. Based on your past postings, I suspect this describes you.

Most of us are NOT that familiar with all of the various things that can be wrong. We hire a surveyor because we want someone with more experience to look the boat over and determine if there is anything wrong (read: costly to fix) that we have missed. We hire a surveyor to help us avoid making a very expensive mistake.

If the survey reveals something that we missed, and that the broker/seller did not disclose, then it is perfectly reasonable to reopen negotiations, or just walk away. Indeed, it would be foolish NOT to!


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

Maine Sail said:


> The seller is just telling you that you've negotiated your best price and there is no more room.
> 
> If you want the boat go for the survey. Remember the survey, for all intense & purposes, is so you can get insurance and know the boat is safe.
> 
> They are not intended, as many people try to use them, as a further negotiation tool. Sounds to me like the seller is an experienced seller and been through the nickle & dime dance before.


I agree, the seller may tell you anything he wants. His personal experience is not something I am interested in and he probably feels the same way about me. It's just business.

As for rest, I respectfully disagree.

For example, insurance surveys don't test engine compression, they only care if it runs, isn't leaking fuel into the bilge, and isn't about to fall off it's mounts.

Some buyers are not inclined to look at the nuts and bolts. We all know people who are brilliant, yet can't seem to attach the socket to the end of the ratchet.

For many, when getting involved in a large purchase we let our emotions get in the way of the decision making process.

There are plenty of dishonest brokers and sellers. A _good_ surveyor is like having a _good _lawyer on your side. He finds the mechanical and structural loop holes, the things the buyer may not understand, explains them to you and assists you in making an informed decision.

Caveat Emptor


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

RobGallagher said:


> ....
> 
> For example, insurance surveys don't test engine compression, they only care if it runs, isn't leaking fuel into the bilge, and isn't about to fall off it's mounts.
> .....
> ...


Rob,

I am not certain how the compression comment fits into your intent...but FWIW all surveys I've had, insurance and purchase, and in those I have read, the surveyors commented at best on the visual appearance of the engine and standing rigging, and exclude their condition from their scope. So the good lawyer comment, which is quite wise, should include an engine mechanic and rigger as part of the team.


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## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

So, where's the OP?


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## nmejicano (Sep 26, 2012)

Thank you all for the comments and suggestions. I rejected the Purchase and sell agreement that contained the clause. The broker sated, "the seller is already mad and you will loose the boat" How can you loose something you don't have? And why should emotions be part of the negotiation? In any case, the seller took the clause off and we are moving on with the purchase. Thanks and see you in the Bahamas.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

Seems to happen frequently on sailnet - the OP disappears in a sea of helpful suggestions...

Not this particular OP, but some seem to post in order to receive reaffirmation of their thoughts and proposed course of action. When they instead receive different viewpoints and ideas, some of which they may not have considered, they bail and are never heard from again.

Many are uncomfortable with the fact that truth often emerges from controversy and conflict.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

Good for you, Nmejicano! The steel balls approach worked.


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

sailingfool said:


> Rob,
> 
> I am not certain how the compression comment fits into your intent...but FWIW all surveys I've had, insurance and purchase, and in those I have read, the surveyors commented at best on the visual appearance of the engine and standing rigging, and exclude their condition from their scope. So the good lawyer comment, which is quite wise, should include an engine mechanic and rigger as part of the team.


I agree, yet, it can get complicated.

For example, one surveyor I used was also a certified Yanmar mechanic. He did a compression check, looked at the alignment, etc. He also did a visual on the rigging and suggested I get a rigger to look at it.

It would also depend on the price point of the boat. For example, if the rigging is 40 yrs old I might put my rigging $$ into simply replacing the standing rigging.


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

nmejicano said:


> The broker sated, "the seller is already mad and you will loose the boat"


Hilarious.

And sad, because some poor fool might actually fall for that line.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

> The broker sated, "the seller is already mad and you will loose the boat"


So what if the seller is insane... This is the broker's, not your, problem.

This is a transaction pure and simple. Tell the broker that his psychological assessment of the owner is irrelevant to whether this transaction takes place (and he gets paid).


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## mikehoyt (Nov 27, 2000)

nmejicano said:


> I was looking for a Gemini 105 MC, I looked at several during the last year and found many in a sad shape and a few with exaggerated prices. Last Saturday, while inspecting an MC, we were pointed toward a 1996 M and we were very impressed with the boat, immaculate maintained with many extras, clean engine, new wiring, a 2100 dollar Garmin, a brand new dinghy, new upholstery, a new AC unit etc, etc, etc. So far the best boat we have seen. We offered the owner 15% less than the asking price, he counter offered and we offered 10% less than the asking price and he accepted. Here is the question and dilemma. On the Purchase and Sell Agreement accepting my offer he wrote, "No price reduction after survey". I know I can reject the boat, but then I will be out of the cost of the survey, haul out and my traveling expenses for an out of State trip. What do you guys suggest?
> Thanks


He has accepted your reduced offer. Make sure your deal is subject to a satisfactory survey. If the boat is OK with only minor issues then you have already agreed to buy it at the agreed on price.

If the boat has major issues then the "subject to survey" clause kicks in and you pull your offer. Nothing stopping you at that point from making a new offer which would be likely your original offer less the cost of fixing the newly found problems.

The survey is for you not for the owner. It is your own cost and he should not pay for it up front or by price reduction

It is a used boat. Your offer was made and accepted on that basis. if you want a new boat then go pay someone else a whole lot more and get a beneteau ....

Mike


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## delite (Nov 2, 2009)

Squidd said:


> So he already dropped his selling price and "now" you want to add(subtract) survey and sea trial discounts on top....??Isn't that double dipping...?
> 
> Seems you should start at the "asking price...subtract the defects noted in survey/sea trial (which may be great or inconsequential) and then "discount" the offer even more if you feel lucky...
> 
> That's like negotiating best price on a new car and "then" asking how much for my trade in...


I have to disagree. Asking price and market value are rarely the same. Lets face it sellers always ask more than they are willing to settle for. The negotiated price is the correct starting point for any adjustments. That new car also comes with a warranty whereas a used boat will not. The vendor can always refuse a new price.

I do agree with you that the buyer would be bound to acquire the boat at the negotiated price even if the survey finds minor problems. I would think, unless he had sufficient reason to reject the boat based on the survey, that the buyer could be liable for any loss the seller may incur in selling it at a lower price on the basis the buyer acted in bad faith in walking away when the survey was ok.


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## emoney (Jun 2, 2010)

I'll have to "agree to disagree" with that statement, delite, as every boat I've sold, and there's only been 5 of them, but the "asking price" WAS the "selling price". I take into consideration what the boat needed vs. market value of a boat that didn't need that and priced accordingly. It was interesting in each instance to watch the responses of the folks that purchased or even just looked at the boats as this isn't the "norm" I guess. As a matter of fact, I can pinpoint 3 different people that were rather upset when someone else purchased "their boat" because they each had a hard time digesting what I was saying. It's simple; I've spent enough time on boats of all types to know what needs to be done and what doesn't. I never "over priced" any of those boats, and more than likely was under market value on the majority.

To the OP, glad it "worked out" for you, but I'm not sure what's changed, outside of the fact that words were removed from a piece of paper? I think you're still going to be out the cost of a survey, et al, if this deal doesn't go through, but I guess if you're more comfortable then that's all that matters. I think the biggest issue with this particular seller is there are a LOT of people out in the market just trying to "steal" because of it being such a "buyer's market" and truth be told, it gets rather annoying weeding through all those folks. I wouldn't let it be a reflection on you, but I bet it's safe to say that if the surveyor comes back and says "the brightwork isn't fresh enough" and you try to get a $500 discount you'll more than likely be told to "pound sand", lol.

Good luck, keep us posted, and the MOST important thing is to make sure you take and share plenty of pictures if and when you buy her.


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## Squidd (Sep 26, 2011)

> but I bet it's safe to say that if the surveyor comes back and says "the brightwork isn't fresh enough" and you try to get a $500 discount you'll more than likely be told to "pound sand", lol.


This is exactly what I'm talking about...

And if the surveyor comes back and says "the keel/strut and prop are missing....

Then that's a deal "breaker"... Done... no obligation from either party...

Now, if you want, you can start "new" negotiations...or not...

No semantics here...


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## delite (Nov 2, 2009)

emoney you sound like a very knowledgeable and fair person who knows the market. Many buyers and sellers dont and arent as knowledgeable or fair and some cultures just like to negotiate, in some cases even after the deal is done. Great if you are able to set a price and get exactly what you wanted. Clearly the buyers found you to be honest in what you said about your boats and you offered them at realistic prices. In most cases the dance is somewhat different as you have seen in your own experiences with buyers and their expectations.


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## Rockter (Sep 11, 2006)

Tell him to take his boat and ram it up his rear sideways.
"No discounts after survey"? 
Yea right.


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## Sumner10 (Dec 10, 2008)

emoney said:


> I'll have to "agree to disagree" with that statement, delite, as every boat I've sold, and there's only been 5 of them, but the "asking price" WAS the "selling price". .


This is pretty much how I've done it for the few things I have sold. I'm usually not pressed to sell by a certain time and I think I try and be reasonable on price. I've sold two homes like that and neither were what you would call conventional homes, but in both cases there were two buyers that wanted them at the same time.

When we finally get to where we have to sell one or both of our boats I hope it works about the same way. We do realize that we are going to loose money on both of them, but the experiences we have had owning them are priceless.

I have stacks of receipts for both and Ruth wanted to keep a running total, but I hexed that. I said they are only going to be worth what the market will bear when we finally put them up for sale. I keep the receipts so that I can remember what I bought and where in case someone asks or we need to replace something,

Sum

----------------------------

Our 37 Endeavour --- Our 26 MacGregor --- Trips With Both


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

I had a surveyor look over at me during a survey and say "you know this boat was sunk, right?" Well I didn't, and the seller pretended not to know, despite there being a very concealing house-type trim around the walls, 8 inches above the cabin sole. She must have sunk in her slip and there was a clear waterline 6 inches above the cabin sole.

When inspecting the engine compartment, he said "There was a fire in here." It was a small electrical fire, apparently.

This was a boat that the sellers treated as "their baby". It was a Beneteau 423 "DragonFly" out of Annapolis.

When I pulled out of the deal, they wanted a copy of the survey for free. That was my $800 survey. I would have given them a copy for 1/2 price. But I think they started calling my surveyor directly. Being a few states away, I'm not sure what happened after that, but they stopped calling me for it.

--

On another survey, George Gallup (excellent surveyor) told me flat out that boat was not worth the agreed price. The seller and I never came to agreement on a new price, so I didn't get the boat.

---

Two good reasons to get a survey. Just make sure you can walk away from the deal for any reason if you choose.

Regards,
Brad


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## emoney (Jun 2, 2010)

Great examples of why you can never be "out $$" when it comes to a survey. The only way you can be out money is to NOT get a survey. I'd rather spend $800.00 to avoid a $28000 mistake any day of the week.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

nmejicano said:


> Thank you all for the comments and suggestions. I rejected the Purchase and sell agreement that contained the clause. The broker sated, "the seller is already mad and you will loose the boat" How can you loose something you don't have? And why should emotions be part of the negotiation? In any case, the seller took the clause off and we are moving on with the purchase. Thanks and see you in the Bahamas.


We're pulling for you. It's best that you are comfortable, but im afraid this was a shallow victory. Nothing has changed. The seller will still not be required to accept any post survey adjustments and their frame of mind to do so has already been telegraphed.


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## nmejicano (Sep 26, 2012)

Thanks to all of you for your comments and helpful suggestions. The issue was resolved, the seller to the clause off and we are moving forward. I am willing to deal with the minor problems (up to a point) that will be uncovered, but anything major will be up for negotiation. I feel that the seller and sometime the brokers, who do have a financial interest in the transaction, believe that if the buyer spend the money for the survey etc. they are already committed and will not back out. Wrong!
Now, I am looking for a surveyor in the Brunswick, GA area or the Jacksonville, FL area.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

use captainrated.com (an off shoot of Activecaptain). Create an account, and drill into the area that you wish to find a surveyor. You will find surveyor contacts, and ratings by customers. If you do, please help out by posting a review of whomever you hire.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

Minnewaska said:


> We're pulling for you. It's best that you are comfortable, but im afraid this was a shallow victory. Nothing has changed. The seller will still not be required to accept any post survey adjustments and their frame of mind to do so has already been telegraphed.


Bingo!! He may have removed the "clause" to make you "feel better" moving forward but he may still choose to reject any nickel and dime BS after the survey and is under no obligation to re-negotiate a lower price deficiencies or not.

Clause or no clause the owner has his/her bottom line and I suspect the OP may have hit it already.

You can always try and re-negotiate but the owner may still tell you to pound sand, clause or no clause.. I've told buyers to pound sand more than once.. Each time the buyers came back to the "agreed price" because the nickel and dime stuff was all BS stuff that had been noted up front before they even made the offer. The surveys found nothing not already disclosed to them yet it did not stop them from trying to use it as a renegotiation tool, which it is not intended to be..

My answer is always simple; "Seller is now offering XXX" and I just respond... "No".....

If you are buying a boat and can't do a competent assessment on your own then you need to accept that 2k or more is going to be eaten up in the "looking process" by way of surveys.

I conduct all my own pre-survey, surveys but still have to pay for a NAMS or SAMS survey to acquire insurance. I have yet to have any surveyor catch all the items I have or hit me with any surprises. I know not all can do this but you can certainly try and educate yourself enough so that there are no "big" surprises.

This is often a six figure venture yet buyers often spend more time educating themselves on a phone, computer, television or used car purchase than they do on a significantly more expensive boat purchase, sad really.


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## nmejicano (Sep 26, 2012)

Thanks, I have done a pre-survey on the boat and I have not found any "major" issues. I have educated myself doing not only a great deal of reading on the boat systems, talking to owners, seeing many of the boats for sale, obtaining the boat manual, learning about the design and manufacturing process, learning about the match between the design and its intended use.etc etc. etc I have spent over a year on my search.
I still have to have the survey for insurance purposes. I, however, would prefer a surveyor that is most familiar with sailboat systems.


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## jasn (Aug 8, 2012)

(Apologies for the long post) Interesting to see this thread take shape with some novice buyers generally lining up on one side of the issue, and some experienced sellers generally lining up on the other side.

Some comments in the thread, apparently from the experienced boat seller set, discuss how they know what price they should set for their boat, they sell her for the price they set, and they can't be swayed by someone trying to lowball a deal. There's also some comments from these experienced "boaties" that when _they_ buy a boat, they can survey the boat themselves, and they can set their asking price accurately and not worry about any issues that may come up later in the process, because of their experience. As a buyer, and boating novice, I find that this position tends to be disempowering, in that it appears that the suggestion is that I should expect to take whatever the boat expert seller is saying, at face value. (And let's face it, at my experience level, everyone else is already an expert ahead of me..)

However, I think that there's another side to this coin, (and I'll use myself as the example). First off, in terms of boat sellers, I'm not trying to take unfair advantage of them, in any deal. I just don't want to be taken advantage of, by them. Second, when I do my personal inspection, (if the boat is within a couple of hundred bucks flying/driving time), I'm looking at the things _I understand_. Stuff like overall cleanliness, (it surprises me that in my short time looking, I've seen several boats where the current owners haven't even cleaned them, in order to prepare for sale). Water damage, canvas, running rigging, and sail condition, water, (or water and other stuff), in the bilge, corrosion in the engine compartment, cracks or blisters in the hull, topsides which buckle when you walk on them, etc.

And that's about it. Based on my inspection, and what I've learned about the boat from other sources, if I want to purchase her, I can proceed to negotiate a price agreed to by both you and I, and we enter into a purchase agreement. At this point I hire a surveyor, whose job it is to inspect the entire boat, fire up all systems, sea trial her, and then write me a report letting me know the condition of everything, based on their expert opinion. I'm not hiring the surveyor for insurance purposes. I'm hiring them to be my expert advisor, and to advise me in the purchase. I also expect the surveyor, based on their expertise to let me know approximate fair value for the boat. If I've misjudged that number in my offer, for any reason, I can guarantee you that we're about to have a conversation. It either is going to begin with I'm rejecting this deal, or I'm not prepared to go forward with this deal at the agreed upon price.

Furthermore I don't agree with the position that once the purchase agreement is signed, I'm obligated to purchase the boat at the agreed upon price as long as the survey only turns up the "normal" wear and tear items. Some comments in the thread suggest the deal should be kept to, unless the survey turns up something "major". So what's major mean to you? Do you know what major means to me? I can guarantee you the meanings will be different. Additionally if I'm negotiating a purchase agreement before I can even inspect the boat, (due to distance), that means that there's the additional hurdle of the personal inspection to factor into this as well.

The fact is that I reserve the right to reject the deal for *any* reason whatsoever. 1 to 2k survey plus travel costs, isn't going to obligate me to make a purchase that I'm in any way uncomfortable with, any more than it would you. If on the morning of the survey and sea trial I experience you trying to bully and beat down anything raised by my surveyor, or questions asked by me, I can receive a survey that states that your boat is solid gold and exhausts chanel #5, and I'm still rejecting the deal.

Truth is, in a negotiation like this, we become partners right from the outset. We should treat each other as partners until the negotiations are completed, regardless of the purchase outcome. To me that means we should deal with each other honestly, as we would want to be dealt with, and if something turns up during the course of the process we should both be open to discussing it and coming to a solution that works for both parties.

Going back to the OP, (I was eventually going to get back there), I think that it's extremely counter productive to put anything like that clause into the contract. Not only is it not necessary, (because the seller retains the right anyway), nothing good can come from it. It will immediately cause suspicion in the buyer's mind, and set up negotiations for a rocky road, (as evidenced by the existence of this thread). Finally, as far as the art of negotiations is concerned by telegraphing your fear like that, you're already given the buyer information that they can use against you. Instead of treating a prospective new buyer like they were your last unsuccessful buyer, it's usually better to treat them simply as a prospective new buyer.

Jason


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## Squidd (Sep 26, 2011)

Some people just don't have the balls to commit...have no clue what they are getting themselves into...have unrealistic expectations that everything should be perfect and look for any excuse to run away 

Not surprising divorce rate is as high as it is...


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

jasn said:


> (Apologies for the long post)....Truth is, in a negotiation like this, we become partners right from the outset. We should treat each other as partners until the negotiations are completed, regardless of the purchase outcome. To me that means we should deal with each other honestly, as we would want to be dealt with, and if something turns up during the course of the process we should both be open to discussing it and coming to a solution that works for both parties.


jasn, your writeup was very good. However, this is the rub. If you've sold enough boats (and aircraft in my case), you can become suspicious of buyers. Many do try to take advantage and nickle and dime the final purchase price for previously disclosed or very obvious items. If you read around this site, you will see some reportedly experienced buyers actually suggesting you do so.

There is nothing wrong with having a surveyor act as your professional advisor, when the buyer lacks the skill themselves. I know quite a bit about most systems, but I would never trust myself to buy without a surveyor. That is most often the case. It's when the buyer made an offer on a 20 year old boat and begins to ask for it to be returned to near new condition that you aren't dealing with a novice, you're dealing with a lack of common sense.

Here's an example. A surveyor may note that a 20 year old seacock shows corrosion, but remains functional, and note it as recommended maintenance down the road. The seller is going to say, no kidding, you will expect to have plenty of maintenance down the road on a 20 year old boat. Some buyers will try to negotiate a price reduction to replace every seacock on the boat, while the survey did not say they had to be replaced now.

Post survey adjustments should be reserved for either undisclosed or unexpected squawks. If the buyer just doesn't like the overall condition of the boat, when the surveyor tells them that they will have lots of maintenance after they buy it, then the expected outcome should be to walk away.

I bought a boat that was advertised literally as an "11 out of 10". Unless that is what the offer says, you can't negotiate for it later.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

Minnewaska said:


> Post survey adjustments should be reserved for either undisclosed or unexpected squawks.


Bingo!



Minnewaska said:


> If the buyer just doesn't like the overall condition of the boat, when the surveyor tells them that they will have lots of maintenance after they buy it, then the expected outcome should be to walk away.


Sadly very often lack of "buyer" homework, lack of knowledge and a focus so ridiculously honed in on the ultimate bottom line purchase price causes many to lose BEAUTIFUL boats. The top 2% condition boats almost always, and I use the word _almost_ for a reason because there are always exceptions, go to the most experienced buyers who;

A) know what they want 
B) know exactly what they are looking at
C) recognize a great value or fair asking price
D) Have bought an sold many times
E) know all the details of the boat they are offering on
F) have looked at numerous other examples of the model

Good boats don't last on the market and bad boats rot into the ground. Some top condition boats never even hit the market. Experienced buyers seek them out and make offers on them despite the vessel not technically being "for sale". We've had a a few people ask us to sell our current boat but we are not ready to sell. Never hurts to ask! These are EXPERIENCED buyers...! Owners selling boats on this end of the condition spectrum know the value too and don't often succumb to "nickle and dime" dances with inexperienced buyers, simply because they don't have to.

When we sold our Catalina 310 I knew she was the cleanest, best equipped and best cared for example on the market. Of course I had studied the market as a seller so knew exactly what I was competing against. Using "Sold Boat" data and the other examples I priced our boat for what she was worth.

The first looker made an offer. My answer was "sorry no" and based on his offer I countered at full asking price because I knew how the "dance" would go with an inexperienced buyer... I knew he would walk and really did not care because I knew another buyer would soon come along.. He left in a huff "thinking" he made a good offer. He had not because he did not know the market other than "most boats" sell for 10-15% less than asking price. He had incorrectly lumped a "pristine" vessel in with the rest of the crap on the market that often does sell for 10-15% less than asking. If he knew more he'd have known the boat was in the top 0.1% of condition and that these boats rarely even get discounted a percent or two beyond asking price, because they don't have to.

After walking off he then proceeded to look at the other boats on the East Coast market spending more in air fare and travel then he would have by just making a "reasonable" offer up front.

By the time he came back, knowing the boat represented a tremendous value, she was under contract with a more _experienced_ buyer. The experienced buyer made an EXCELLENT offer that was based on years of experience and the fact that he too had done his homework.

During the survey the battery charger fried (literally at the dock during the survey). That was the only item he tried to re-negotiate on. Everything else, like a small scratch on one of the dodger windows, and some gelcoat repair and some already resolved warranty items to "watch" had already been fully disclosed. He asked for $700.00 to replace the charger. I told him the charger would be operational within 72 hours, which it was, and told him the price was still the price. I fixed the charger, at my cost, which was far from $700.00. He bought the boat with no further nickle and dime dancing.

Boat was worth what was being asked, I knew it, buyer knew it, and knew a good value when he saw it. Two days after the closing the first guy came back wanting to make a "much more reasonable offer" but he had already lost it.



Minnewaska said:


> I bought a boat that was advertised literally as an "11 out of 10". Unless that is what the offer says, you can't negotiate for it later.


That's the boat you want to buy! Oh, you can try to renegotiate but a seller of an 11 out of 10 or top 2%er is likely going to slough you off because they already know the value and that another guy with buying experience will soon come along and recognize the value....

Different boats sell differently. The junker that has sat on the market for 2 years will likely be able to be negotiated down after survey because the seller has no real clue as to condition or value.

In my experience;

Inexperienced sellers/owners most often sell boats to inexperienced buyers

Experienced sellers/owners most often sell boats to experienced buyers

conversely;

Inexperienced buyers rarely end up with the cleanest, best equipped and best maintained boats which costs them far more over the duration of ownership.

Experienced buyers most often end up with the cleanest, best equipped and best maintained boats costing them far less over the duration of ownership.

*Disclaimer:* NONE of this is aimed at anyone in this tread, especially the OP. It is from my own experience over 40+ years of boating and buying, selling and owning LOTS of boats.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Maine Sail said:


> ...That's the boat you want to buy! Oh, you can try to renegotiate but a seller of an 11 out of 10 or top 2%er is likely going to slough you off because they already know the value and that another guy with buying experience will soon come along and recognize the value........


I agree. I've bought a bunch of "good values" over the years, from cars to boats to aircraft, and each to an item required me to put the money in after purchase instead. In some cases, even more.

For trivia, in the example I gave above, the surveyor determined that the AGM winch batts (two 12v in series) would not last more than 10 or 15 mins. I did not notice that when I looked her over, which was while she was on the hard and stored inside. I believe the seller didn't know either, as she wasn't commissioned for the season yet. That's not 11 out of 10, so the seller installed two new ones. He also identified that the rear white nav light was obscured by the dinghy and should have been remounted where visible or was in violation for the delivery. Again, for a regular purchase, sellers shouldn't have to deal with it. For an 11 out of 10, that got fixed too. But I paid probably 10 or 15% more than the next best example of her on the market. That's the point.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

Maine Sail said:


> Bingo!
> ...The first looker made an offer. My answer was "sorry no" and based on his offer I countered at full asking price because I knew how the "dance" would go with an inexperienced buyer... I knew he would walk and really did not care because I knew another buyer would soon come along.. He left in a huff "thinking" he made a good offer. He had not because he did not know the market other than "most boats" sell for 10-15% less than asking price. He had incorrectly lumped a "pristine" vessel in with the rest of the crap on the market that often does sell for 10-15% less than asking. If he knew more he'd have known the boat was in the top 0.1% of condition and that these boats rarely even get discounted a percent or two beyond asking price, because they don't have to. ...


Considering the recurring posts about "buying strategies" which differ solely by how large a discount to ask off an asking price..10%, 25%...50%!! egad. You have finally posted the ultimate advice on buying a sailboat.

This post should be a sticky!

Buying a boat should be all about value...and can only be approached by a rigorous effort to definite and evaluate value. The relationship between value and asking price is very haphazard and unreliable... Strategies for "% off..." offers, are only different twists on how a buyer can guarantee to screw himself in buying a boat.


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

Minnewaska said:


> jasn, your writeup was very good. However, this is the rub. If you've sold enough boats (and aircraft in my case), you can become suspicious of buyers. Many do try to take advantage and nickle and dime the final purchase price for previously disclosed or very obvious items. If you read around this site, you will see some reportedly experienced buyers actually suggesting you do so.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with having a surveyor act as your professional advisor, when the buyer lacks the skill themselves. I know quite a bit about most systems, but I would never trust myself to buy without a surveyor. That is most often the case. It's when the buyer made an offer on a 20 year old boat and begins to ask for it to be returned to near new condition that you aren't dealing with a novice, you're dealing with a lack of common sense.
> 
> ...


Trusting a costly(2x going rate) pre purchase surveyor is how I got where I am today, with 4 months in and yet to even sail around the bay.
I'll be replacing my totally non functioning seacocks next haul out. At least I'm learning a lot. I knew project boats like vehicles are usually a losing battle unless it's just sitting neglect, not decades of ignored maintenance.

I bought a project misrepresented as a 9/10 (all major work done in preparation for cruising south, new engine, sail etc just needing exterior trim sorted, and minor cosmetics).
Now that I've spent the same again as the high sale price, she's almost what I thought I was buying in the first place. 
Next buyer will get what I thought I was getting, and at the same price I paid.

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk


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## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

Surveyors miss stuff routinely. Learn to be your own surveyor.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

CharlieCobra said:


> Surveyors miss stuff routinely. Learn to be your own surveyor.


True, particularly for the lowest price surveyors that charge by the foot. Buyers should learn to pay sufficiently that they can do a thorough job.

My current boat took two guys a day and a half. You don't get that for a fixed price per foot.


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

Minnewaska said:


> Post survey adjustments should be reserved for either undisclosed or unexpected squawks.


I agree. The problem for the buyer is that all too often there are a LOT of undisclosed squawks.

I have to say that the sellers who have chimed in on this thread do not strike me as "average." That doesn't surprise me. The very fact that they participate in a forum like this indicates that they put more time, thought, and just more of "themselves" into their interest in boats and boating than the majority of boat owners.

So, the folks on this forum--I suspect--are more likely to be honest about the condition of their boat when they sell it. Beyond that they're more likely to take care of it and have a boat in better than average condition to sell.

As a buyer, though, who has studied websites, talked to brokers and sellers, and who has put in time, effort, and money to go and look at boats, I have to say that most sellers are not quite that honest.

Too often the pictures turn out to be years old, from before the boat began suffering from neglect. Too often the "9 out of 10" turns out to be more like a 3 or 4 at best. Too often the boat that's on the hard, but promised to be in "sail away condition," is actually not even safe for a sea-trial, let alone sailing away anywhere!

I've had my butt saved by a surveyor on more than one occasion, who caught something that I missed--something that the seller HAD to know about, had not disclosed, and that would have cost THOUSANDS to fix!

I would have to estimate that somewhere around 3/4ths of the boats I have looked at, there has been some sort of significant deception on the part of the seller and/or broker. Is it any wonder that buyers are suspicious, and attempt to negotiate for every little thing that they can? I would happily deal in an open and honest fashion with every seller that I meet--if only I could. When 3/4ths of them are trying to take advantage of the buyer, though, can you blame the buyer for coming to the table with the expectation that he is going to have to try to do everything possible to take advantage back?

I know I sound very cynical. I wish it wasn't so. I have absolutely treasured the few boat purchases I have made where the seller turned out to be honest with me (same for the few car and home purchases that were likewise). I hope for it every time. I embrace it when I find it. But experience forces me to proceed cautiously and with a fair degree of suspicion until the seller's honesty has been confirmed.

You honest sellers out there shouldn't blame us cautious and suspicious buyers for that. Instead, blame all of the other DIS-honest sellers out there who force us to be that way!


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## Sumner10 (Dec 10, 2008)

denverd0n said:


> .....Too often the pictures turn out to be years old, from before the boat began suffering from neglect. Too often the "9 out of 10" turns out to be more like a 3 or 4 at best. Too often the boat that's on the hard, but promised to be in "sail away condition," is actually not even safe for a sea-trial, let alone sailing away anywhere!


How true. We drove 500 miles to look at one boat that looked wonderful in the pictures and I couldn't even believe it was the same boat. The broker did nothing to indicate that the boat was in nowhere near the condition represented in the photos.

Then we drove 500 miles round trip to look at the boat we did end up buying and it was advertised with a dodger and bimini, both in shreds and the dodger you couldn't even mount to the frame. Then there were 2-3 items advertise like the swim ladder that didn't even exist. Was it just outright deception or merely the broker not doing his job and confirming if the items existed or were even functional.

If we ever buy another boat and travel some distance to it I won't go unless the broker guarantees that all items listed are actually on/with the boat and are somewhat functional. If they aren't I'd sure like to figure out a way that they at least paid our gas ,

Sum

------------------------------------------

Our 37 Endeavour --- Our 26 MacGregor --- Trips With Both


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

Sumner10 said:


> Then we drove 500 miles round trip to look at the boat we did end up buying and it was advertised with a dodger and bimini, both in shreds and the dodger you couldn't even mount to the frame. Then there were 2-3 items advertise like the swim ladder that didn't even exist.


The above quote says it all.

If the broker gave you all the information over the phone you would not even have looked at the boat according to your own comments.

That fact that you were upset that the boat was misrepresented is not really important to anyone including you as you bought the boat.

Not saying you did anything wrong I'm sure you discounted for the missing items.
Hard to fault the broker though he did sell the boat and that is his job.
PS, I would have been annoyed too.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

denverd0n said:


> I've had my butt saved by a surveyor on more than one occasion, who caught something that I missed--something that the seller HAD to know about, had not disclosed, and that would have cost THOUSANDS to fix!


Mind sharing what exactly was found that caused you to skip the boats?


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## Sumner10 (Dec 10, 2008)

davidpm said:


> ...That fact that you were upset that the boat was misrepresented is not really important to anyone including you as you bought the boat.


Because we bought the boat doesn't mean that it wasn't important and it did cause us to be upset at the time to the point that we just about walked. Yes we bought the boat and did negotiate some on the final price but where do you draw the line on what is acceptable and not acceptable in the terms of what is represented in printed advertisement and by the broker. We found the boat on the internet and then talked to the broker and asked about the items in question.

I would of much rather of looked at MS's boat than going to look at a boat that the seller or broker or both either intentionally misrepresented or misrepresented due to sloppiness. The problem is that it isn't always so easy to tell from a phone call and the actual advertisement if you are being mislead. There are people spending a lot more than we did to go look at boats that the same thing has happened to and it isn't right if it could of been avoided.

I'm not trying to pick the add or what they told me on the phone apart for the sake of a lower price, but from the standpoint is it worth my time and money to go look at the boat in the first place. Yes we ended up buying the boat so you can say the broker won on that point. Would we of still gone and seen the boat in the first place if it was represented factually. Maybe not, maybe yes, and there were other boats we could of driven to,

Sum

------------------------------------------

Our 37 Endeavour --- Our 26 MacGregor --- Trips With Both


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I would love to bash some unscrupulous sellers for a minute. I had one that I went to see that didn't have the dinghy, nor the sail inventory as advertised. How does one misrepresent these? They weren't described incorrectly, they didn't exist. 

Before I went to even look at another, I learned that it had run aground at full throttle and all but tore the keel clean off, buckled the hull and took on two feet of water. All repaired, but wold have been discovered as undisclosed upon survey. I actually found out when calling a surveyor to get lined up. He knew the boat's reputation.


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

Minnewaska said:


> True, particularly for the lowest price surveyors that charge by the foot. Buyers should learn to pay sufficiently that they can do a thorough job.
> 
> My current boat took two guys a day and a half. You don't get that for a fixed price per foot.


Expense is no qualification in my books.
If looked at hourly, I paid around 200$ an hour for my surveyors time. Official company and everything. Considering he was surveying a boat with manual everything, single ac outlet, 6 thru hulls and one light, with no liner to get in the way, it's amazing he was able to find ways to spend the few hours he did take. Even more so that he missed everything from the non functional sea cocks(they spin but don't close), to the misrepresented engine, batteries and the delaminated mast beam and tabbing.

When it comes time to sell her, I will be quite happy to wait for a buyer who appreciates the condition she'll be in then. The buyers who want to bend me over a barrel and squeeze every nickel they can out of me will be more than welcome to learn the hard way as I did, on one of the mis represented boats because I'll be selling a solid well equipped boat at a fair price based on the market at the time.

The 10k(at least) for me to get her there is my cost of my learning, but if a buyer is going to use a padded survey to beat me down in price then I'll be happy to refund their deposit and keep the boat a bit longer.

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk


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## sailordave (Jun 26, 2001)

Well, I have two experiences to relate. Almost bought a (boat) spring of 2011. Was a little leery of the seller to begin w/ due to the circumstances and he really was pushing to complete the sale. I wanted to get a survey (which he said would not be grounds to renegotiate). I was happy w/ that as it was a good price. I just wanted to be sure the boat was as advertised and had no inherent, serious defects. Found out that the rudder was completely delaminated as well as the cored transom soaked. And being the rudder had had the bearings replaced just a couple years earlier he had to know. ( I found out later that was the case!) While the survey is ongoing, he's calling me to find out when it will be over, how soon can he get the $$$, he REALLY needs to get this deal done. He also was telling me that he was selling to concentrate on family issues, his mom was sick, kids, etc.. blahblahblah. I was already pissed b/c he wasn't straight w/ me about known defects.
I had a call in to someone I knew could give me a straight answer on the approx. cost to fix the few things the survey turned up and I told the seller this in the late afternoon. Told him I would have an answer in the morning but I was still intending to go through w/ the deal; I just wanted to know what I was getting into. He went ballistic, ranted, raved, yelled. To his credit he did call back later w/ an apology. 
However, I went home and thought about it and decided I didn't NEED this boat and I didn't want a boat that came w/ that bad karma and if anything else turned up I'd be pi$$ed at myself. Told him to take a hike. Found out later that the whole time he was working the deal w/ me and I was lining up a surveyor he was playing someone else too! Oh, and he was selling and had to get it done b/c he was buying a bigger boat! Which I saw him in later that summer. Glad I walked.

Now the boat I DID buy several months later... Having looked at a LOT of boats that were in crappy condition, I called the broker and he told me it was a one owner boat and the guy was an engineer, the boat was in really good condition and he told me what was lacking- windlass, dodger, refrigeration. I said okay, wife and I flew up to see the boat. 
Having been around boats, worked on boats and read the boat buying trip thread here on SN  decided things looked pretty good. Ended up making an offer and came to terms. Flew back up for the survey. Turned out my impressions were spot on. 
BUT the survey did turn up some things I would NOT have known about. Need overcurrent breaker, galvanic isolator, new propane line. Few other minor things. Needed them done before launching for insurance purposes. I had these things done up north at a cost of about $1500. Otherwise a fine boat. We did ask for some relief on the price b/c of the survey but the owner said no. I was okay w/ that; never hurts to ask. I could have walked but the boat really was (is) a nice boat and it was a fair deal.
Do your research, know what you're looking at and take your time. Don't let someone rush you into a deal. Boats are NOT a necessity.


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## flyingriki (Sep 27, 2012)

Squidd said:


> That's like negotiating best price on a new car and "then" asking how much for my trade in...


It's EXACTLY the way I negotiate for a car -what's the problem? Why pay too much? They can always say no.....


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