# Double Spinn Sheets



## davidk (Feb 1, 2002)

We are about to launch a new 42 footer (new long keel wooden hull with high tech rig for cruising and IRC racing ... the 8m class). We are stepping up from much smaller boats but have raced for many years.

We are having a single double ended Spinn pole and two sets of sheets & guys. i.e. there will always be both a lazy sheet and a lazy guy attached.

This represents a hole in my experience that I need to fill! Why do I need two sets of sheets/guys? What sheet/guy clew/tack fittings do I need for this set up? (This is a unique boat that we are specifying ourselves, although faithful to the original design, albeit with the help of sparmakers, sailmakers etc ... not the designer who died in 1954!). Maybe I''m a bit thick, but I need some detailed coaching in setting up (and using) this double sheet system.

Could someone walk me through a jibe?! 

Thanks.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Generally when you have sheets and guys the boat is intended for a dip pole jibe. You can still use sheets and guys with an end for end but that is typically only done in heavy air on a boat that would normally be end for ended. I will talk through both. 

Starting with a dip pole jibe, a dip pole jibe generally takes a lot of people to do well. You need a minimum crew of seven to do a dip pole smoothly on a boat the size of an 8 meter. Starting from the bow, you need a foredeck person at the stem, a mast person, a pit person, a spin trimmer on starboard and a spin trimmer on port, a mainsail trimmer and a helmsman. 

As the jibe begins the foredeck person grabs the lazy guy and walks to the bow. The mast man raises the mast end of the pole up the track as to a premarked point that will allow the pole to swing across the deck just above the bow pulpit. The pit person eases the pole lift to a premarked point that will allow the pole to swing across the deck just above the bow pulpit. The mainsail trimmer brings the mainsail to the centerline and holds it there. The original windward spinacker trimmer tensions the spin sheet and then eases the guy, saying "guy blown". The mast man swings the pole in toward the centerline where the foredeck person blows the old guy and inserts the new guy in the jaws, relatches the pole pin, and then swings the pole to the new windward, saying ''Made''. At which point the mast person lowers the pole on the mast to its previous position, the new windward trimmer tensions the guy and eases the sheet, and the pit person raises the pole lift to its original position. When the sail is set and flying the new spin trimmer says,''flying'', so the mainsail trimmer knows to let the mainsail out and so that the helmsman knows that the boat can be turned up to windward. 

That is a dip pole jibe. 

End for ending with lazy guy allows the pole to be made before the guy is tensioned which allows end for ending on bigger boats or on windier days. End for ending with a lazy guy takes five people on a boat the size of an 8 meter. A foredeck person, a port and starboard spin trimmer, a mainsail trimmer and a helmsman. At the beginning of a jibe the foredeck person takes the lazy guy and stands at the mast, and if necessary lowers the pole end to within reach. The former weather trimmer tensions the sheet and eases the guy. The foredeck person releases the pole from the mast. The mainsail trimmer brings the main to the centerline and holds it there. The foredeck person puts the lazy guy in the jaws of the pole and walks the pole out to the new windward. The foredeck person then removes the previously used guy from the new inboard end of the pole and puts the pole on the mast, saying ''Made''. At that point the new guy is tensioned and the former sheet eased. The sheet trimmer then says''flying'', so the mainsail trimmer knows to let the mainsail out and so that the helmsman knows that the boat can be turned up to windward. 

A couple additional points, The guy should be heavier than the sheets and have a donut and chafe gear at the jaws. The sheets should have an extra large bail so that the lazy guy can be snapped into that bail. In lighter air the guy can be removed to reduce the weight on the guy and the guy can be snapped to the sheet to act as twings. 

I really love 8 meters and I am delighted to hear that you are building a replica. I am trying to remember who died in 1954. I am guessing Clinton Crane because I think that L. Francis Herreshoff and Starling Burgess died a few years later. Who designed your boat and is she a replica of "Cayuga" by any chance? 

Jeff


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Rereading your original post I am confused that you say that it is a "long keel wooden hull....8 meter." 8 Meters were generally fin keels with attached or skeg hung rudders. Could you please elaborate?

Jeff


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## paulk (Jun 2, 2000)

Essentially, double sheets & guys get used because with such a big boat, pole and spinnaker, you don''t want anything to get out of control and kill someone. 
Using lazy guys and sheets enables you to do an end-for-end or a dip pole gybe, as conditions and crew skills warrant.
To dip-pole gybe, the lazy guy is eased so the bowman can slip it into the pole jaws on the new side, when its time. The pole (and guy) are eased forward and the jaw disengaged from the old guy. (Here is where the argument comes about rigging the pole jaws up (so that opening them releases the pole from the guy when you pull down on it) or jaws down, because you want the strength of the cast part of the fitting at the top, where the most strain is; you open the jaw and lift the pole off so it doesn''t just drop and bean somebody. Most boats I''ve sailed on go with the jaws down.) While the guy and pole are being eased forward so the bowman can grab the end of the pole, the new sheet can be tightened a touch to help keep the chute full without precluding the pole''s going forward. The bowman grabs the end of the pole, in any case, while another crew lowers the topping lift to the pre-marked point that allows the pole to pass beneath the forestay. The bowman slaps the new guy into the jaws, calls "made" or words to that effect so the trimmer knows he can haul on the new guy and new sheet, and there you are. A smart bowman then adjusts the lazy guy and sheet to positions so they''re ready to gybe back again. An end-for-end gybe works similarly, except for not having to coordinate the timing of the topping lift, and not calling "made" until the pole is re-attached to the mast fitting. Hope this helps. There are a bunch of books that outline this in better detail or with differing options. Borders or Barnes & Noble would be good sources.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Paul, that was an interesting post with regard to the pole jaw direction. I have always suspected that there are regional differences in how things are done. Here on the east coast of the US I have never sailed on a boat that sailed with the jaw opening down. Most of the boats that I have sailed on are set so their bridles only work with the jaws up. This is done to make it easier to keep the guy in the jaws and make it easier to get the pole on the mast. Where do you sail? 

Jeff


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## manateee_gene (Dec 7, 2001)

Jeff: I''ve never sailed on a boat that used a pole with the jaws down.That is not saying it can''t be done!


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## davidk (Feb 1, 2002)

For Jeff H

I am talking about a Classic 8 and these were/are traditional long keels ... well a classic ''metre'' boat shape, so like a small classic 12. Bear in mind the Straight 8s are around 47'' LOA and only abt 8'' in the beam. (Ours is actually an 8CR - cruiser racer - only 42'' LOA and infact a yawl - but still measures as an 8 - don''t ask !)

I''m sure the modern 8''s that are dry sailed and travel the world are again smaller versions of modern 12''s, so that is where you get the fin and skeg idea. If you want to find out about classic 8''s you should look at the Finnish 8 metre association site which is in English, mostly, and v informative.

Thanks all, for the double guy and sheet dissertations - extremely useful and your efforts much appreciated. You have added plenty of useful detail.

The boat is not a reproduction but a rebuilt original! Meaning the lead keel and wooden keelsom remain original, and the shape comes from the original hull. (The hull was jacked back to designed shape with the aid of laser levellers etc., and the 120 laminated new ribs could then be shaped into the old planking before it was discarded and replanked. The designer was Knud Reimers (Danish but mostly worked in Sweden. It may have been after 1954 that he died, but it was soon after the boat was launched in 1954. He designed many 8 metres and a few of them were CRs
The 8 Metre Cruiser/Racer was something of a rarity, as far as I know only about 20 were built world-wide and then mostly by McGruer in Scotland. Ours is unusual in that she is rigged as a Yawl with a cutter foretriangle. Only one other Yawl was built and that was Reimers’ own boat, Hazard III, that he sailed in the USA and hence was optimised to the American Rule. Our boat was optimised to the RORC rule and built in Dun Loghaire, Ireland

I''ve just discovered you can''t paste pictures here which is a pity. Cheers.


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## paulk (Jun 2, 2000)

We sail Long Island Sound & around a bit. We''ve experimented, but for 30 years I''ve almost always have the pole jaws open down. On our Soling as well as on smaller dinghies, I''ve noticed that some jaws have an angle on the pin so that the pole can be rested on the mast fitting and then pulled down, snapping the pole into place. Also, if the chute is lifting against the pin, as it could with the jaws up, the pressure could bind the pin so the pole couldn''t open. Binding the pin would be unlikely with the jaws down. Hathaway Reiser & Raymond (riggers and sailmakers in Stamford for a LONG time and for a lot of people besides us) set up the topping lift and downhaul bridles on our J/36 pole, and jaws down is how it flies.


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## BenD (Apr 19, 2000)

I can''t resist this one. I have set up my boats and others with the pole jaw opening upwards ever since an incident 13 or 14 years ago. A downhaul block broke and the pole skied into the mast (nasty broach). The rather fat aluminum casting became jammed in the mast car ring, and little could be done until the all the pressure was out of the Spinnaker (trailing behind in the water). Once stable (and out of the race), while trying to free the pole in haste, it acted as a lever, and the car was destroyed. I''ll vote for jaw opening up on my 3300# 30 footer with an SA/D near 30 and a 900+ sq. foot spinnaker. Another benefit is that the outboard end can "fall" downward and away from the guy before the gybe. It''s easier to release using gravity.


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## paulk (Jun 2, 2000)

Hmmm. So if your topping lift had broken instead,would you be putting the jaws down for the same reasons as you now put them up?
I can see how the casting could jam and distort the mast fitting either way. This warrants its own discussion - or perhaps a new reader poll at the login page !! I will start the new thread with an appropriate title.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I agree with Ben. If you look at the jaw fitting shape one side is flat (the side the jaws open on) and the other side is rounded almost humped (opposite the opening side).
In the case of an accidental sky..either equipment or crew failure-the rounded side will not have proper clearance from the mast and jam destroying either the car or mount.
All of this discussion is somewhat academic with a toggle mounted pole.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Bare with me on this one. If I am the windward spinnaker trimmer I would be standing somewhere close to the shrouds on the same side of the boat as the pole is set. (correct?) 

When we begin the gybe, my job would be to tension the sheet (ie. lock it off on the self tailing winch on the cabin) and then square the pole with the guy. The mast person would then blow the guy and swing the pole across to the bowman, etc.

If I am the "new" windward spinnaker trimmer, I would set/adjust the new guy, and pick up the new spinnaker sheet and yell "flying" so the gybe can be completed i.e. main let out and helmsman steers to windward.

Is this right? I am concerned with my job as spinnaker trimmer through the gybe.

Cheers


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

One minor point. You don''t lock off the original sheet. You need to play the sheet around the jibe until the ne guy is made up with the pole in its proper place. It is at that point that the spinacker is passed up to you. On some boats you would walk back to the cockpit, and trim boat sheets while the guy trimmer makes up the new guy and then blows off the old guy. 

Jeff


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I thought I would give my 2 cents of knowledge on Gybing with 2 sets of sheets and guys. Having raced on a variety of race boats, the most powerful, but yet elegant and easy to use is that of a Modern 12Meter "Fiddler" Ex. America II US 46. I will review this from both the stb. trimmer to the port trimmer.12Metres and IACC boats both utilize only one (1) winch on each side for trimming any foresail. They utilize a mechanical or hydraulic clutch to lock the sheet, located between the turning block at the transom and the winch.In addition the winch has a lower free turnning drum. It works like this.

You are the guy trimmer, as the boat turns downwind, if we came off a vmg run, the guy trimmer trims both the guy, as the pole comes aft, and the sheet. Just before the "trip" you lock off the sheet and quickly remove the guy from the drum, place the new sheet on the winch and un-lock the clutch, you are now on the sheet.

You are the sheet trimmer, as the boat turns toward dead downwind you slowly ease the sheet so that the leward clew is even, or beyond the headstay. You allow enough slack in the lazy guy so that the bowman can reach the bow + 1 foot. At the time of the trip, the pole comes through the foretriangle, you lock the sheet and quickly remove the sheet from the drum and replace it with the lazy guy. As the bowman yells made and the mastman is jumping the topping lift you trim the new guy as fast a you can. When the pole is in the right position, you unlock the sheet. You are on the guy.

Regards,


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I sail a mumm30 and double are nice and easy to keep your spi full during gybes and also for heavy weather sailing in order to keep teh boat in control and do an easy gybe as no presure is on the guy''s untill you trim them again and you can keep sailing the boat with the sheets. 

On the Mumm30 we gibe end for end with the double sheets and that is fast and easy. I would try that at first and later on maybe have a look at dipping as a crew member needst to be at the bow the boat tends to dive with is not fast.

regards,
tjerk van der veen


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## inka (Nov 7, 2000)

Hi David.
Knud Reimers actually dies in 1987. in his later years he mostly built powerboats.
i own a 1941 swedish 8meter (they call it Ö8)
"Marita" was built originally as a 40sq meter Seefahrtskreuzer with a cutter rig and her mast stepped on the keel, but then they (the owwner and Reimers together) changed her into a sloop, stepping the mast on the deck a bit more foreward.
i would love to see pictures of your boat, since mine is truely a restauration project also, and a lot of the orignal stuff is gone. it ould be helpful to see how things are arranges, what deckhardware sits where, and also how the interior is set up.
your pix get mine ;-)
thank you, inka


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## hemme (Jan 7, 2007)

*Reimers*

I am also an owner of a Knud Reimers classic 8 meter (42' LOA, 8' beam). She is a fiberglass classic that has just had the engine overhauled and will get attention to topsides before we put her in this year. I would be very interested to see photos of other Reimers that are sailing or in restoration.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Hemme-

Instead of reviving an thread that is over four years old, you really should have started a new thread instead. It is generally considered poor net-etiquette to dredge up old threads.


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## hemme (Jan 7, 2007)

*My mistake*

I appologize for the miscommunication. I didn't notice the post date.


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## maxmunger (Dec 29, 2005)

I totally cocur with having jaws UP!
Upward pressure from the sheets should never cause enough friction to keep the pin from moving. Just release the foreguy a bit!
It is far safer to have the jaws open upward because you can let gravity carry the pole away from the sheets, since the chute will naturally rise when eased or released.. Otherwise the pole must be lifted to release the sheets.
For dip polers, this also means the jaws(up) are open and the lines can be just layed into the jaw, whereas with the jaw down the lines must be lifted and held until the pin is tripped closed.
And also, if the pole rises to the mast, the pin will not jam into the car/loop like the jaw casting will.


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## johnsail (Apr 4, 2000)

*How about an A-sail??*

As everybody's been saying, the point of twin sheets is to facilitate a dip-pole jibe by keeping a traditional spinnaker under control while the pole's moved from one side of the headstay to the other. The pole's arranged "cup up" with the pin on top. That way, when the outer jaw's opened and the topping lift is released, the pole end falls down and away from the spinnaker guy. Otherwise it would be caught on it.

But that's a concern for racers. I have to ask: why do you need a traditional spinnaker? You can do very nicely with an asymmetrical spinnaker -- essentially a big, nylon genoa jib set without a pole. The mainsail's so big on boats like the 8 Metre (I race on one) that you have plenty of sail area. All you need is a lightweight headsail.

Roll up the jib, set the A-sail with the usual two sheets, and you're in business with no worries about managing a spinnaker pole on that narrow foredeck. To jibe, just head off and let the sail fly out in front of the boat before trimming the sheet on the new leeward side. You can even run square before the wind by sailing wing-and-wing.


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## mrkeith (Jan 25, 2006)

i guess that raises a good point. is there any advantage of having a symetrical spin vs an assymetrical spin? are symetrical spins now becoming obsolete? thank you


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

IMHO, the rise of asymmetrical spinnakers is mainly due to sailing short-handed. An asym doesn't require the number of crew, or level of coordination that a traditional spinnaker generally does. Traditional spinnakers aren't really obsolete, just serve a slightly different purpose.

Also, on non-racing boats, carrying a half-dozen headsails isn't really common, and an asym is a much more versatile sail in many ways.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Asy spi´s are used on cruising boats because they are easer to handle, on racing boats because modern light displacement (sport) boats make better VMG by sailing hotter angles. On a heavy non surfing boat like an 8mtr there is not enough speed gain to warrant the extra distance, therefore sailing deeper with sym. chute will be much faster.

Dip pole jibe: Jaws up so the old guy lifts out, make sure that the lazy sheet is over the guy, square pole, pull new sheet on, raise mast butt (mark on mast), open jaw and drop topper (mark on topper), guy lifts out (hopefully), release old guy, swing pole through clipping the new guy in. drop butt, raise topper, pull new guy in while easing the old sheet. Use the port and stb. sheets to fly the chute through the jibe. The topper and mast butt are marked so that you know that the pole is angled enough that it will pass through the foretriangle. Attach the guys so that the lazy guy can be removed in light air.

It takes ideally 1 person to do sheets, 1 to do guys, 1 for pit, 1 for mast, and 1 for bow . I have done it double handed on a 44 foot fractional rigged (with runners) IOR boat in 25 knots at 2am on the way to Hawaii, anything is possible.


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## nolatom (Jun 29, 2005)

mrkeith said:


> i guess that raises a good point. is there any advantage of having a symetrical spin vs an assymetrical spin? are symetrical spins now becoming obsolete? thank you


I'm fairly new to assym. kites, but im my opinion they aren't all that good on a dead run, since they're tacked onto the bow and don't get out enough from behind the main. On a very broad reach or a run, give me a spinnaker on a pole.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

There are assymetricals and assymetricals.

newer assymetricals actually allow dead runs...the point is that sometimes the dead run is not the fastest way to get there....

Assyms can be built to dead run..


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