# 1946 Ed Monk Sr. Wooden Sailboat



## Kielanders (Dec 8, 2011)

I'm thinking about purchasing a first sailboat. The following is one that's in the running if it's still available:

1946 Ed Monk Sr Sailboat Cutter sailboat for sale in Washington

Even if it's not available, I'd like your thoughts on both this boat, as well as wooden boats in general.

For my purposes, any boat I purchase will see some bluewater and long hauls. While I don't consider myself foolhardy, I'm not particularly risk adverse either.

I have read many threads pertaining to wood boats vs. fiberglass, though I haven't seen anything specific concerning this boat or similar boats.

I am also considering fiberglass as well. I am competent mechanically and with carpentry, and have done a bit of glasswork. I anticipate any boat I purchase, I will be the primary person doing the repairs/upgrades/refurb.

Prior to any purchase, I will be having the boat pulled with a full survey by someone with experience in the type of boat I'm considering.

Thanks.


----------



## celenoglu (Dec 13, 2008)

A wooden boat can be repaired what ever the condition is. The maintanence costs are only 10% more than a fiberglass boat. This boat seems in a good condition but a surveyor will give much better opinion. 

If you have good carpenter skills you can maintain her easily. Maintaining a fiber boat requires more materials than skill. A wooden boat requires more skill than materials. 

It is always comfortable to be in a wooden boat than a fiber one.


----------



## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

Have you ever considered making life easier on yourself?

Do you enjoy sailing or working on boats?

There are good reasons why the vast majority of boats are now made out of fiberglass.


----------



## marianclaire (Feb 4, 2010)

My first/only boat is wood and I have not regretted it. For open water I do not like the lack of lifelines and it appears as if you have to go over the cabin to get forward. With no roller furling you will end up going to the bow. Welcome to the forum. Dan S/V Marian Claire


----------



## WanderingStar (Nov 12, 2008)

Well, she's good looking. If you are comfortable with a wooden boat and willing to keep up with essential maintenance, you'll do fine. People do buy wooden projects and rebuild them. I have a friend that totally rebuilt a 26' catboat. I prefer to buy an operational boat (the one in the picture looks good, and floats!) in good condition and keep it up. I've been sailing and fixing (my own) wood boats for 20 years.


----------



## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

jameswilson29 said:


> There are good reasons why the vast majority of boats are now made out of fiberglass.


There are also reasons why "Two and a Half Men" is the most popular sitcom in the US, and why McDonald's is the biggest restaurant chain in the world.
Popular ain't the same as preferable.
A wooden boat that hasn't gotten behind the maintenance curve requires little more annual maintenance than a fiberglass boat. 
The key phrase in the above baldly stated opinion is "behind the maintenance curve." Damage that goes uncorrected too long spreads more quickly on a wooden boat than a fiberglass boat...
... but, it is also noticed sooner, since it is harder to ignore than soft frozen snot. 
Personally, I'd much rather repair rot on a wood boat than recore the decks on a neglected fiberglass boat.

27 pieces of teak requiring varnish or, for the heathens, Cetol, on a wooden boat is the same as the same 27 pieces of teak on a fiberglass boat.


----------



## emoney (Jun 2, 2010)

The "wooden boat" debate I'm sure could rage on for eons, but essentially narrows down to
"if you love her, you'll take care of her". I know nothing about Monk sailboats, but you don't
have to be a butcher to know you like steak. That's a beautiful boat, and so much cooler
than my "cookie-cutter, off-the-shelf" plastic boat I sail. Let us know if she's makes the grade!


----------



## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

Beautiful Boat! I'd love to see the cabin, neat how it goes all the way to the sides.


----------



## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Pretty, character boat.. if in good shape still is likely up to pretty much anything.

As mentioned, if you're comfortable with the workload, esp if you can do it all yourself this could be a labour of love.


----------



## emoney (Jun 2, 2010)

Have no idea what your budget is, but your link got me "snooping". If this fits, WOW, what 
a beautiful boat;
1957 Stephens Farallone Clipper sailboat for sale in California


----------



## zedboy (Jul 14, 2010)

bljones said:


> Personally, I'd much rather repair rot on a wood boat than recore the decks on a neglected fiberglass boat.


Speaking of, we are eagerly waiting to welcome you to the dark side (or are we the good guys?)

Where's that model of the cat you promised? The Peanut Gallery (tm) is hungry for updates ...

(gotta do something till frikkin may ... durn great white north ... where's my ice skates?)


----------



## marianclaire (Feb 4, 2010)

WOW is right and it deals with my two concerns. But here is my favorite wood boat. Dan S/V Marian Claire


----------



## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

I love wood boats, make my living on them and own three... Nothing sails quite like wood. If that Monk doesn't work out PM me.


----------



## carl762 (Jan 11, 2010)

Both fine looking boats.


----------



## JedNeck (Sep 22, 2011)

I think I've seen that boat on CL. Beautiful boat. So many little wooden caveats. For me it's too small and pretty for a liveaboard though, wood boats tend to be smaller inside than their glass counterparts because of their spars and I have a golden retriever...But for pure sailing enjoyment and boat envy it would be hard to beat.


----------



## Kielanders (Dec 8, 2011)

So many great replies, thank you everyone.

Pending a survey on any boat we go after, and after having read so many threads here on wooden boats, buying a wooden boat is no longer a concern, just because it is 'wood'.

Am I correct then in taking from your replies and what I have read, that an older boat that was originally built for bluewater and/or snotty weather, if it has been maintained, should still be stout enough to live up to its design decades later?

My goal with the boat is to be able to use it as a 'commuter vehicle' to a small cabin we have on an island about 300 miles from here. This isn't to say, that just the sheer joy of being on the water isn't enough reason to get it - but it's also an issue of the purchase making financial sense as well, in not having to fly, carry supplies, and giving me greater access, etc.

It's an open water trip, although there are a few small islands along the way. Depending on the season, the weather can get fairly ugly, but overall, one can usually find a nice window of time to cross over - keeping in mind that forecasts are notoriously wrong. Again, I don't feel I'm foolhardy, nor am I risk adverse.

Here's my checklist/wishlist:

- It Floats
- Double Ender
- Full Keel
- 35' or Less (It seems anything over 35' becomes problematic for soloing.)
- ~30HP

While not planning to outrun the weather, I'd like some options should the unexpected happen - so for most boats I'm looking at, I'll probably be dropping in a new powerplant. Cost is a consideration as with everything, but I'm also aware that price can (not always) reflect condition - so pay now, or pay later on repairs.

While that short list above is actually longer, I'm taking a more holistic approach, in that I'm doing the 'does that boat look right?' approach - knowing what I'll be using it for, how I'll be sailing it, my sailing skills now and in the future, and what type of environments my boat and I will see.

While I like this little boat, there was a Saggita 30 for sail in California that I was looking at a year or so ago that would have been a good fit, but I was too occupied with other things at the time to move on it. This Monk that I'm looking at almost looks nice enough to be in a museum with all of its accents - but it also looks like a nice tight little boat that I could care for, and would take care of me.

Thoughts?


----------



## Kielanders (Dec 8, 2011)

LandLocked66c said:


> Beautiful Boat! I'd love to see the cabin, neat how it goes all the way to the sides.


Here are some more photos of the boat:

Picasa Web Albums - Mark Pederson - moonsail cutter


----------



## itsaboat (Sep 28, 2011)

That is a beautiful boat!! It looks something out of a Disney movie. If anyone missed the picture link here it is:

Picasa Web Albums - Mark Pederson - moonsail cutter

It seems pretty inexpensive considering how unique it is.


----------



## Kielanders (Dec 8, 2011)

CharlieCobra said:


> I love wood boats, make my living on them and own three... Nothing sails quite like wood. If that Monk doesn't work out PM me.


CharlieCobra,

Sailnet will not allow me to PM you, as it says I am a new member, and my post count must be above 15 to PM.

This boat doesn't have a head, which isn't a big deal for me, and I'd be sailing it the most - but when the wife is onboard, I know that'd be important.

I don't have a layout of this boat and can only go by the photos. In your experience, can a small head be reasonably installed without destroying the character of what seems to be a very nice older boat?

We live in Seward, Alaska. My options to get a boat here are: sail it up here, or barge it up here.

Sailing it is not out of the question depending on the condition of what we get, putting it on a barge seems to run about $8-$10 K.

Are there any transport options that you are aware of that would make more sense financially? Truck, Train, or possibly having a Seiner tow it up here when the fishing season starts? Although I'm not sure that last idea would work well. Just thinking 'out-loud'.

Also, can you recommend any surveyors and cradle makers in the Seattle/Bellingham area?

Any other thoughts are appreciated.

If you are uncomfortable making recommendations on the thread, perhaps you are able to PM me?

Thanks,
Neil


----------



## itsaboat (Sep 28, 2011)

Oops, missed your pic link, Kielanders. I was in another tab looking at the boat and Sailnet did not refresh in this one until I posted. Sorry for the repost. 

Good luck with your decision!


----------



## Tbrad (Aug 15, 2011)

Wow! A good looking boat with a lot of character. If I didn't already have two "plastic" boats, I'd definitely check her out!


----------



## WanderingStar (Nov 12, 2008)

"Am I correct then in taking from your replies and what I have read, that an older boat that was originally built for bluewater and/or snotty weather, if it has been maintained, should still be stout enough to live up to its design decades later?"

Yes. Mine does, built in '68, cruised the Bahamas extensively many times under two prior owners, delivered home from Florida to NY by me in 2008.


----------



## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

Snailnet wouldn't work for me last night, email replied to...


----------



## dmcMaine (Sep 1, 2010)

Kielanders said:


> I'm thinking about purchasing a first sailboat. The following is one that's in the running if it's still available:
> 
> 1946 Ed Monk Sr Sailboat Cutter sailboat for sale in Washington
> 
> ...


Good lord! That's an "Override the Admiral" gorgeous boat! If she were in New England, and not Washington......

Of course, a survey would tell the full story. But as far as "slip appeal". I'm drooling from here. 

This: 1972 Vinalhaven Ketch Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Just doesn't have quite the same effect.


----------



## larrytwo (Aug 31, 2011)

*Works of art*

Great vessels. and well deserving of care.... alot of work and money. I owned a 1947 monk design sloop in the early seventies. Yellow cedar over oak. Teak deck and woodwork. I loved this boat and sailed her to Mexico in 1971. tragicly she burned new Gambier island a couple of years after i sold her.


----------



## Kielanders (Dec 8, 2011)

dmcMaine said:


> Good lord! That's an "Override the Admiral" gorgeous boat! If she were in New England, and not Washington......
> 
> Of course, a survey would tell the full story. But as far as "slip appeal". I'm drooling from here.
> 
> ...


But Admiral has powers, and she doesn't appreciate insubordination - of which I'm regularly guilty.

Maybe I'll just take her out for a nice dinner, and on the second bottle of wine I'll gently let her know that the boat is already on the barge and will be delivered in a few days.


----------



## marianclaire (Feb 4, 2010)

Wet blanket here. The first post mentions blue water sailing. The eye appeal is there but would you take her out in nasty stuff. This has nothing to do with wood vs fiberglass but just design. The blunt cabin to deck transition catches my eye along with my other posted concerns. I am just learning about this stuff so let me know if I am being to harsh. Dan S/V Marian Claire


----------



## Kielanders (Dec 8, 2011)

marianclaire said:


> Wet blanket here. The first post mentions blue water sailing. The eye appeal is there but would you take her out in nasty stuff. This has nothing to do with wood vs fiberglass but just design. The blunt cabin to deck transition catches my eye along with my other posted concerns. I am just learning about this stuff so let me know if I am being to harsh. Dan S/V Marian Claire


You're not being a wet blanket at all. I want feedback like yours.

I want to get the right boat for me. She doesn't even have to be pretty for me to love. Just tough enough and the right configuration to see me thru good days and bad solo, and well enough designed to handle faithfully and be a joy to maintain.

As pretty as this particular boat is, I have no interest in impressing the neighbors or plan on entertaining. I just want a solid little cruiser with which I can bond.

Like the Saggitta I looked at a couple of years ago, this one's lines 'looked' right (ignoring the eye candy appeal). But that doesn't mean my perception is correct.

Can you expand on why you think the blunt profile of the cabin is not appropriate? I'm looking to learn.

Thanks.


----------



## marianclaire (Feb 4, 2010)

I am no expert on this stuff so take what I say with a grain of salt. Look at the difference in the boat in post #1 and in post #10. How do they shed water that comes over the bow. Post #1 captures it and holds it on the bow. In post #10 the cabin is smaller than the deck and the water can pass aft. Dan S/V Marian Claire


----------



## avboy (Jun 3, 2013)

Well, I'm a sucker for a pretty boat. I'm the proud new owner of the 1946, Monk design, SV Moonsail! I bought her a couple weeks ago for $6K, as-is, unsurveyed (bet that's got a few heads shaking!) I will be having her surveyed in the near future, but I'd like to do it at a time I can take care of some work along with the haulout. I'm confident she's worth way more than what I paid in parts, not that I'd ever part her out. The photos at //plus.google.com/photos/101603529453362855132/albums/5727001461612174001?banner=pwa are from a couple years ago, and unfortunately she did not receive the maintenance she should have in the interim. The oil and coolant in the engine appear to be connected  and I believe I'll be looking at repowering her. I'm seriously considering going electric.

Here's where I could use some input. There are (just a couple) areas on the hull where there is rust bleeding through the hull paint. I'm thinking she was originally fastened with bronze, but some repairs were done with galvanized. Is this a reasonable conclusion? Would it be advisable to do any "first-aid" with these spots before I have a chance to haul her out and deal with them correctly? BTW, what is correctly?


----------



## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Your link was hard to use is this her? 
https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/101603529453362855132/albums/5727001461612174001

1946 Monk Sailboat sailboat for sale in Washington

Anyway.. and I say this kindly.. you don't know what you just got into if your asking about fastenings. I strongly suggest you join the wooden boat forum. You will find the experts that are willing to help.

You make no mention of the timbers, (ribs) keel and deadwood? What about the ballast keel? and the bolts? Wooden boats should not be out of water too long or they will suffer even more damage from drying out!

Glossary of Boatbuilding Terms | A Shipwright in Training


----------



## desert rat (Feb 14, 2013)

if its iron use iron to repair if its copper or brass use bronze. If its wood (god forbid) use wood. wood rots fibergalss lasts "forever". Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and old boats that survive have been seen as beautiful by many people.


----------



## avboy (Jun 3, 2013)

Sorry about the link being hard to use. Being new here, the forum wouldn't allow me to include a real link, but yes, the picture above is the right boat. 

I think I have a pretty good idea what I've gotten myself into - and yet I'm still smiling . I know a bit (certainly not everything) about fastenings. I was really just fishing for opinions. 

Yes, I am concerned about the keel and keel bolts, but issues there would merely change the scope of the project - or make me decide it should be someone else's project. For now, I'm savoring the quality, workmanship, and history of what is apparent to me. I'm not a surveyor by any means, but I have accompanied professional surveyors through every step of extensive inspections. The Moonsail is my third cruising sailboat. 

From what I know, the pictures of her out of the water were only when she was being worked on, not long term dry storage. She's happily afloat now, and gets more water to the bilge from our Northwest weather than through her hull or fittings. I think the photos really show how well she has been lovingly cared for in the past. 

It is my hope I can be an adequate steward for this piece of history which now owns me, rather than I owning her!


----------



## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Good for you! Hope you find good things under the sole! (floor)


----------



## zedboy (Jul 14, 2010)

What a phenomenal piece of history! It's really a bit of the way sailing used to be (maybe should be?).

Can you get us updated pics? 

(Speaking as a former wooden boat owner, still going through withdrawal)


----------



## Harborless (Nov 10, 2010)

Wood was used for thousands of years- obviously its reliable.

However--- Wood is much more prone to the weather than fiberglass.

I think you would be well served PM'ing some wooden owners and getting their annual expense reports, both in hours and costs. 

Wooden boats are beautiful- I myself would pass.


----------



## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

Does anyone know if the OP bought this boat or any boat?

It seams like a tall order to commute 300 water mile in Alaska in a wooden boat for a new sailor. I do know tha Alaskans are a different breed so I am wondering how this worked out.


----------



## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I would suspect that she is galvanized fastened. There was a shortage of bronze fastenings in the first couple years after WW II. 

In that era, wooden boats were seen as having a limited lifespan (maybe 20-30 years without a major rebuild, as in planking and framing). In that context, steel fastenings were seen as being stronger, cheaper, and more reliable than bronze by many smaller boat builders of the day, and durable enough that with one refastening, they should last the life of the boat. 

A pre-purchase survey of any wooden boat should include removing a couple fastenings to check their condition. I would also suggest that is a high price for that boat in non-surveyed condition and with a dead engine. With all due respect, I would do a detailed survey with someone who really knows wooden boat construction before putting any money into the boat. Boats like these can easily have a negative value. 

As the yard owner, who hauled my Folkboat before I restored her, said by way of warning, "That may look like a boat, but it is no longer a boat." It was the best advice anyone could have given me, but as a 23 year old that did not stop me from moving forward with replacing the rig, rudder, keelbolts, floor timbers, a piece of the stem, some planking, sistering the frames, building a cockpit and interior and not being done when I sold the old girl. 

Jeff


----------



## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

Jeff_H said:


> As the yard owner, who hauled my Folkboat before I restored her, said by way of warning, "That may look like a boat, but it is no longer a boat." It was the best advice anyone could have given me, but as a 23 year old that did not stop me from moving forward with replacing the rig, rudder, keelbolts, floor timbers, a piece of the stem, some planking, sistering the frames, building a cockpit and interior and not being done when I sold the old girl.
> 
> Jeff


Did you at least get to sail her some?


----------



## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Before:









After:


I did get to sail her some, and also lived aboard very briefly. She was a dream to sail. Well balanced and surprisingly good in light and heavish air; not what I would call fast, but reliably able to keep moving. A total joy to sail.

And while I say that she was not fast, (at least by modern standards) I had a pretty easy time beating much newer 26 footers of that era like Pearson Ariels, Seafarerer Meridians and the like. About a decade before I owned her, under the name of 'Ballerina', she won a very early MORC East Coast regatta in Miami.

She did not have an engine so I learned that I could row her as well. I built a long sweep that was used by passing the sweep through a rope quoit hung over the jib sheet winch which then acted as a single thole.

Jeff


----------



## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Wooden boats are just as seductive as beautiful women. And they are just as dangerous to your soul and your pocketbook.
Just don't look, and walk on by...


----------



## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

krisscross said:


> Wooden boats are just as seductive as beautiful women. And they are just as dangerous to your soul and your pocketbook.
> Just don't look, and walk on by...


Maybe.. but just like beautiful women, it's amazing what a coat of paint, some varnish and a bit of bling will do to her looks. Whereas fibreglass will always look like.. fibreglass.

Avboy: That's a really nice boat you have there. Congratulations! 

JeffH: I imagine your folkboat might have sailed even better with a rudder..


----------



## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

*Rudder you say?*



Hartley18 said:


> JeffH: I imagine your folkboat might have sailed even better with a rudder..


Rudder? You want to see a rudder? We don't need no stinking rudders.....Sorry, I got carried away.

Here is a picture of me at 23 years old with my Dad and shaping the rudder that I was building for the Folkboat.



Jeff


----------



## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Damn! That's a nice car in the background Jeff. Your old man must have been flush. What kind of car was that?

That's a great photo. Looks like your Dad was supportive of your hobby.
When I told my Dad I wanted to get into yachting he just snickered. My Mum said, "That's nice dear."


----------

