# Synthetic Motor Oil for my Diesel?



## luv4sailin (Jul 3, 2006)

I put about 50-60 hours a year on my diesel these days since I did something really, really stupid...getting a job. As the boat is not hauled for the winter, being that I live in Florida, I change the oil every 12-15 months. Given that change frequency, should I be using synthetic oil rather than "conventional" motor oil?

Thank you in advance for your input.

Ron
s/v Lucia


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## npmac (Oct 29, 2014)

No, under no circumstances use synthetic or partly synthetic oil in a marine diesel engine.


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

And why not since many Diesel engine manufacturer recommend it


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## bob77903 (Nov 10, 2008)

npmac said:


> No, under no circumstances use synthetic or partly synthetic oil in a marine diesel engine.


And your reason, basis for this are?


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

While I am quite convinced that synthetic oil has some superior properties, namely lifetime, high temp stability, and viscosity vs. temperature, I don't think you're likely to take advantage of them. But worst case is you spend a bit more than you could have done.

Shell makes Rotella in standard, semi, and full synthetic versions. I refuse to believe that the synthetic version will destroy your engine when the standard version won't.


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## sulli (Mar 9, 2013)

I read an article that blamed synthetic oil for causing the cylinders bores to be so. highly polished they couldn't be rehoned


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## sony2000 (Jan 30, 2013)

It used to be, not to use synthetic for two reasons. If you burn a lot of oil, it was expensive. But not now. The other reason is if the engine is shut down for long periods of time, like the winter, the oil is the worst fogging of oils and the insides of the engine corrode. I guess that's still true. Your OK.


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## npmac (Oct 29, 2014)

Yanmar, who I suspect make more marine diesels than anyone else, will void their warranty on new engines if their oil recommendations aren't followed. The problem isn't a lack of lubrication with synthetic oil, it's that synthetics in cool running marine diesels glaze the cylinder walls and build up a very hard deposit on the edge of the piston crown that will score the cylinder. This subject has been researched fully and the results are easily available. However, don't take my word for it, read your engine's manual or get in touch with the maker. Or, to find out for yourself, run your engine for about 30 hours with a full synthetic and then check your oil consumption.


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## Stu Jackson (Jul 28, 2001)

Synthetics have also been reported to eat seals and gaskets.

Tell ya what: do some homework. You do a search on this and any other boating forum, use the term "synthetic oil" with the " " marks to get the exact phrase, and you will be able to read for weeks. Really.

Dino oil works just fine, follow the engine manufacturer's recommendations, avoid synthetic oil in older engines 'cuz those engines were made before synthetics were invented.

That's the short answer. Up to you to find the longer one if you so choose.


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## luv4sailin (Jul 3, 2006)

You've sold me. Good old West Texas or Saudi oil it is!
Thanks to all of you for your input.

Ron
s/v Lucia


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I can't live with myself changing oil that infrequently. Although, I suspect it's within manufacturer spec (typically 100hrs or 1yr). I just think dirty oil, sitting in a marine environment is bad. 

I do the filter once per year, but change the oil more frequently. There are any number of ways to set yourself up for it to be a quick deed on one of your visits.


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## BarryL (Aug 21, 2003)

Hey,

Personally I don't believe there is any ADVANTAGE of using synthetic oil in a marine diesel. I also don't believe there is anything wrong with it either.

Here is the manual for the Yanmar 4JH4-HTE-1:
Use an engine oil that meets or exceeds the following guidelines and classifications:
API Service Categories CD, CF, CF-4 and CI-4

SAE Viscosity:
10W30, 15W40. Engine oil 10W30 and 15W40 can be used throughout the year

Here are the specs for Shell Rotella T (not synthetic) 15W40:
API CJ-4, CI-4 PLUS, CI-4, CH-4, CF (and a whole bunch more).

So Shell Rotella T is clearly allowed by Yanmar

Here are the specs for Shell Rotella T6 (Full Synthetic):
API CJ-4, CI-4 PLUS, CI-4, CH-4, CG-4 CF-4, CF (and a whole bunch more).

So I don't see how Yanmar could void any warranty work on engines that used Rotella T6 full synthetic.

Again, I don't think that a marine diesel would benefit from synthetic oil, but I don't see how it would hurt.

Barry



npmac said:


> Yanmar, who I suspect make more marine diesels than anyone else, will void their warranty on new engines if their oil recommendations aren't followed. The problem isn't a lack of lubrication with synthetic oil, it's that synthetics in cool running marine diesels glaze the cylinder walls and build up a very hard deposit on the edge of the piston crown that will score the cylinder. This subject has been researched fully and the results are easily available. However, don't take my word for it, read your engine's manual or get in touch with the maker. Or, to find out for yourself, run your engine for about 30 hours with a full synthetic and then check your oil consumption.


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## THEFRENCHA (Jan 26, 2003)

Also it is my understanding that once you switch to synthetic in your engine you cannot go back to standard oil


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## TejasSailer (Mar 21, 2004)

Several years ago I was told by an aviator that switching to synthetic oil resulted in gaskets leaking, apparently because over time it replaced petroleum oil and the gaskets tended to shrink. My Mercedes was recalled for a switch from petroleum oil to synthetic. I agreed if the dealer would to handle repairs if gasket leaks developed. The dealer refused but assured me there would be no problem, I relented, and about two years later I ended up with a sizable expense for several leaking gaskets.

Was the aviator's story an urban legend? I don't know, but I don't have another explaination for what happened to me.


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## sulli (Mar 9, 2013)

barryl you and others might want to read this article it is where I got the info. Oil for yacht engines


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

sulli said:


> barryl you and others might want to read this article it is where I got the info. Oil for yacht engines


That's the best article on the topic I've seen in years. Thanks!

MedSailor


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## npmac (Oct 29, 2014)

MarkSF said:


> While I am quite convinced that synthetic oil has some superior properties, namely lifetime, high temp stability, and viscosity vs. temperature, I don't think you're likely to take advantage of them. But worst case is you spend a bit more than you could have done.
> 
> Shell makes Rotella in standard, semi, and full synthetic versions. I refuse to believe that the synthetic version will destroy your engine when the standard version won't.


Do you still refuse to believe? I admire the man who sticks to his guns and refused to be confused be facts.


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

I am perfectly willing to be persuaded by facts. So far all you have done is state some facts without providing any reference to back them up. 

If you read that article linked to above, it does not state that you should avoid synthetics. It says that oils with high TBN can cause problems with cool-running diesels. So you should avoid oils with high TBN. That I can agree with, although I don't see any serious data to back this assertion up. But lets go with that hypothesis.

The article also states that the newest oils with a CJ rating, which are intended to be used with low-sulfur diesel, are good news because they can have a lower TBN number.

Here are some TBNs for commonly-used oils for marine diesels :

Chevron Delo 400 LE : 9.6
Mobil Delvac 1300 super : 10.5
Shell Rotella T non-synthetic : 10.1
Shell Rotella T6 full synthetic : 10.6

Are we to believe that going from a TBN of 10.1 to 10.6 will result in engine failure? 

If we are to avoid T6 full synthetic because of a high TBN, it appears we also have to avoid any modern diesel oil.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

sulli said:


> I read an article that blamed synthetic oil for causing the cylinders bores to be so. highly polished they couldn't be rehoned


Pure Bovine Scatology. I suspect someone read about not using it during initial break in because it's so slippery and didn't understand what they were reading.

Iron is so soft that it would not be possible to polish it to a point that a hone wouldn't cut it.

Synthetics are better than petroleum oil - pure & simple. The only downside to them is a possible slight increase in leakage - they are so slippery they can sneak out where conventional oil won't. They don't shrink gaskets, but even if they did you can buy "seal sweller" additives that would correct it.

Years ago, when they were still a specialty item I read a test where two identical engines (gas V8's), one on oil, one on synth, were run side by side on dynos for an extended period - the equivalent of 100K miles IIRC. After that they were torn down, inspected and measured. The oil engine demonstrated the usual wear for that much use. The synth engine was within OEM tolerances in all cases - essentially NO wear.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

THEFRENCHA said:


> Also it is my understanding that once you switch to synthetic in your engine you cannot go back to standard oil


Not true - you can even mix them if you want, or rather need to. A number of the "synth" oils out there are actually partial synthetics mixed with petroleum oil. You need to read the labels closely to see if that is the case.

There are still people out there who insist that "straight 30 weight" is the best thing for diesels. I think the anti-synth folks are their soul mates.

It's not necessary if you treat your engine properly but it IS better and it sure can't hurt. The references to "cool running diesels" means they either have incorrect thermostats or are raw cooled.

You aren't supposed to mix BRAKE FLUIDS and should flush the system completely when changing from one to the other.


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## sony2000 (Jan 30, 2013)

Other beliefs, or misbeliefs by a synthetic convert.
1. Try to use filters that have check valves to prevent the oil from draining back from the oil channels. Synthetic is the worst fogging oil. It doesn't stick to steel very long.
2. Semi-synthetic is about 20% synthetic, so treat it as dino oil. Even make your own.
3. If you run a diesel in the great white north all year, and you don't use synthetic, there are always some people that are stupid with diesels that won't start in the cold.
4.The change frequency of synthetic is about easily double that of dino oil. But at half time change the filter. This brings to mind a recent contributor, that while offshore put 200 hours on his Yanmar turbo, without an oil change.
5. Dino oil for diesels must have a low ash content. Ash mightn't exist in synthetic.
6. The formula was changed to stop the damage to seals and gaskets.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

sony2000 said:


> Other beliefs, or misbeliefs by a synthetic convert.
> 1. Try to use filters that have check valves to prevent the oil from draining back from the oil channels. Synthetic is the worst fogging oil. It doesn't stick to steel very long.
> 2. Semi-synthetic is about 20% synthetic, so treat it as dino oil. Even make your own.
> 3. If you run a diesel in the great white north all year, and you don't use synthetic, there are always some people that are stupid with diesels that won't start in the cold.
> ...


Always double check that with your manufacturer. Westerbeke/Universal insist on the _same change interva_l even if you use synthetic..

*"10. Can I use synthetic oil in my engine?

Westerbeke does not approve or disapprove the use of synthetic oils. If synthetic oils are used, engine break-in must be performed using conventional oil. Oil change intervals must be as listed in the MAINTENANCE SCHEDULE section in the Operator's Manual and not be extended if synthetic oils are used. NOTE: The information above supersedes all previous statements regarding synthetic oil." *

I have multiple commercial fishing customers with in excess of 15k engine hours. None of them has used anything but Rotella or Delo Dino oil....


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Maine Sail said:


> I have multiple commercial fishing customers with in excess of 15k engine hours. None of them has used anything but Rotella or Delo Dino oil....


I've always figured whatever was most popular on the shelves at a place like Bosselmann's Truck Plaza in Grand Island, Nebraska, was probably good enough for me... 

That would most likely be Shell Rotella...

Back when I was shooting IndyCars, I got to know the guys who drove the big transporter rigs for the team whose sponsor I was working for. I used to chat with the drivers about diesels and their maintenance from time to time.

Despite the fact that a major synthetic oil manufacturer was a sponsor of the team at the time, they confessed to running regular dino oil in those big Freightliners...


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

JonEisberg said:


> I've always figured whatever was most popular on the shelves at a place like Bosselmann's Truck Plaza in Grand Island, Nebraska, was probably good enough for me...


I dunno - that sounds awfully close to the old myth about truckers knowing the best places to eat.

The reality is they just know the places with the biggest parking lots.


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

Not directly comparable, but our new Honda CRV, 4 cylinder, came with 0-20 synthetic 
"Honda engineered" oil, which Honda suggests not changing until after the break in period. They recommend 0-20 oil thereafter.

So, it looks like Honda starts out with synthetic & continues it after that. They also state that the oil change interval as shown in the owners manual should be followed, & "You may use a synthetic motor oil if it meets the same requirements listed above". I could not find any petroleum 0-20 oil, so, it is synthetic for me.

Of course diesel & gas engines vary a lot, with higher pressures for diesel combustion, I think? I have finally learned to follow the manufacturers instructions, seem to work pretty well.

An interesting page on synthetics:

Honda Synthetic vs Regular Oil

Paul T


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Try following the manufacturers instructions on a 40 Y.O. European diesel. 

When I checked out the fluid recommendations for my old Perky 4-107 there wasn't a single thing that was available or that I'd ever heard of.

The fact that anything current is way better than anything available 40 years ago put my mind at ease.


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## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

Well if the lowest tbn is desired using dyno oil delo 100 would be preferred then its tbn is 7.
Here's the specs I referenced MatWeb - The Online Materials Information Resource also it was formulated specificly for off road and marine diesel service


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## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

SloopJonB said:


> Try following the manufacturers instructions on a 40 Y.O. European diesel.
> 
> When I checked out the fluid recommendations for my old Perky 4-107 there wasn't a single thing that was available or that I'd ever heard of.
> 
> The fact that anything current is way better than anything available 40 years ago put my mind at ease.


I just checked the 4-107 manual and Mobil delvac 1300 is a listed lube oil for your engine Mobil Delvac 15W-40 Heavy Duty Diesel Oil, 1 gal. - Walmart.com


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

delo 400
rotella/rimula 

15/40 all day long...

now if you have a newer diesel especially a turbo version built to tighter tolerances and not 30 or 40 year old like a perkins or old volvo you can use the same brands "synthetic" blends

aka rotella makes an awesome 5-40 that I use for my truck for example(isuzu rodeo that specs 5-30 on the manual)

some diesels can use synthetic "blends" well as they help much with initial oil flow especially in cold climates, prevents crank bearing failure.

Im sure this has all been said before but there is no reason to move away from what the manual specs for you engine within common sense(reason)

so for example if your engine specs 10-40 for 40f-90f temps you are more than fine to use 15-40 diesel truck stuff

NOW if you have a modern diesel that specs 5/30 or straight 20 grade or something and you slop on 15/40 delo 400 and your favourite MM oil to thicken it up like you would your old atomic 4 guess what? you are doing more damage than good

peace


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

lots of rumors here..... none true, thou I stopped half way down the first page....
Here is the long and short of synthetic oil.
synthetic oil is oil derived, at least in part from tar sands. (as a google search will tell you)
Its basically a longer life oil, that resists breakdown better.
It will not rot your seals, rust your engine, pollish your cylenders so they cannot be honed, LOL that was the best one.
You CAN use it, but in an old tech diesel with no turbo, no point. grab some rotella and your done.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

What is the difference between sae30 delo 400 and the same weight delo 100?

Also are the operating temperatures ambient air temps or should engineroom temps be used? 

Med sailor


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

All interesting replies. Some time back, IIRC, Rockter described using synthetic in his older Volvo diesel & encountering oil leaks he did not have before. I used Delo 400? I think, in my Detroit & VW diesels, changed according to instructions, & had no problems. 

I think viscosity specs, & gas/diesel formulas may be more critical than synthetic/petroleum choices?

Paul T


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## sprega (Jun 25, 2002)

UnionPacific said:


> lots of rumors here..... none true, thou I stopped half way down the first page....
> Here is the long and short of synthetic oil.
> synthetic oil is oil derived, at least in part from tar sands. (as a google search will tell you)
> Its basically a longer life oil, that resists breakdown better.
> ...


Agreed, most syn oil IS petroleum based. Long story short, it has been molecularly modified to make all of the molecules the same size. Hence less breakdown and thus better lubrication through out the life of the oil change. It does not stay any cleaner than conventional oil and therefor should be changed at manufactures recommend intervals. Synthetic oil is not without its drawbacks. High end synthetics. Generally ester based, are very expensive. That being said, the use of quality conventional oil that meet the spec of your engine manufacture and changed on schedule will be more than sufficient to prevent any undue lubrication related wear. I use Delo 400 in my Universal.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

yup paul

anywhoo its been a while since I have been here...thought it be fun to go all in on an "oil thread" jajaja

peace

ps. I used rotella and delo 400 on my racing honda aircooled motorcycle that I restored and bar none it was the best oil for a low tolerance, mild compression GAS engine too...

use what your engine likes best...
nowadays you have too many options if in doubt use what a NEW MANUAL reccomends to use as NEW updated GOOD manuals will have comparison charts and updated liquids and fuels to use in your "old" or older engine.

see a good manual goes a long way to dispell any crap you find on the nets jajaja

and while I dont agree with many of the crap spewed in many places here and elsewhere the comments about synthetic being a more refined dino oil is basically true the difference is in the formulations and "END USEAGE" 

END USEAGE should be the most important parameter to help you choose the best oil for your engine, regardless of LABEL brand and or ADEVRTSIEMENT


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

MedSailor said:


> What is the difference between sae30 delo 400 and the same weight delo 100?
> 
> Also are the operating temperatures ambient air temps or should engineroom temps be used?
> 
> Med sailor


https://cglapps.chevron.com/msdspds/PDSDetailPage.aspx?docDataId=77106&docFormat=PDF

delo 100 40 weight is just the same as any straight weight oils they are deisgned by nature to operate in a very regulated temp, rpm and design

notice farm equipment, generators etc...straight grade is perfect for generators that work at a constant rpm

even some engines benefit using straught grade oil as in essence it will last longer since there are no viscocity modifiers.

thats why old school mechanics and techs in general always tell you to buy the oil that has the lesser of ranges. for example a 10-30 oil has the potential to last longer(within spec viscocity wise) than an equal 0-30 or 5-40 etc simply because the ranges are smaller and there are less viscocity modfiers to keep said oil within spec.

operating temp refers to engine operating temp(thats why an oil temp gauge is always a good addition to a low alarm oil feed buzzer) ambient temp is always outside air

so if you have a very enclosed engine room with poor flow and or air capacity guess what? you are operating in wrong ambien temperature

a key to good engine performance is always to have good airflow and outflow first before ever modifying or trying to improve performance in other areas...

for example oil, and or additives or "better" fuel


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## sprega (Jun 25, 2002)

christian.hess said:


> END USEAGE should be the most important parameter to help you choose the best oil for your engine, regardless of LABEL brand and or ADEVRTSIEMENT


 Spoiler alert....... The voice of reason.


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## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

UnionPacific said:


> lots of rumors here..... none true, thou I stopped half way down the first page....
> Here is the long and short of synthetic oil.
> synthetic oil is oil derived, at least in part from tar sands. (as a google search will tell you)
> Its basically a longer life oil, that resists breakdown better.
> ...


I agree with you on all points and just a side to my earlier post rotella tx is also listed for the old Perkins at the bottom of the lube oil recommendations page


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

christian.hess said:


> yup paul
> 
> anywhoo its been a while since I have been here...thought it be fun to go all in on an "oil thread" jajaja
> 
> ...


In one of the many off road motorcycles I had over the years, a Honda air cooled single, I switched over to synthetic after the break in period. Many of the areas we rode in had LONG, STEEP, COBBY uphills. That bike would get so hot it would literally burn the insides of my legs from radiated heat. I could never tell any difference, performance wise, between regular & synthetic oils, but maybe the engine would live longer?

Interesting chart:

http://www.wildehonda.com/engine-oil--synthetic-vs-regular.htm

Paul T


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

christian.hess said:


> h
> operating temp refers to engine o..., if only properly ventilated or exhausted...


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

sprega said:


> Agreed, most syn oil IS petroleum based. Long story short, it has been molecularly modified to make all of the molecules the same size. Hence less breakdown and thus better lubrication through out the life of the oil change. It does not stay any cleaner than conventional oil and therefor should be changed at manufactures recommend intervals. Synthetic oil is not without its drawbacks. High end synthetics. Generally ester based, are very expensive. That being said, the use of quality conventional oil that meet the spec of your engine manufacture and changed on schedule will be more than sufficient to prevent any undue lubrication related wear. I use Delo 400 in my Universal.


I have always used synthetic in my turbodiesel. However on my boat a few things have changed.
One of those changed things is rest period, and environment.
Typically in a turbodiesel that is land based I recommended a 25-35,000 mile oil change, and a 5-10,000 mile filter change. However with more moisture prevalent in a marine diesel, I recommend about a 6-12 month change period, irregardless of hours. Thou I admit, I change mine every 250 hours, or 12 months. This is why I think in a non-turbo diesel, in a boat, synthetic is a waste of money, and has no benefit. Our engine are high displacement and low output. This only applies to sailboats, and I scarcely care about planning power boats.

I think if we could find a water separating filter for our oil, and use 2 micron bypass filtration, we could go many years without a change, as the oils life should be no less then 1000 hours. I believe oil testing would prove that.
Being a chemist, I am a bit of an oil nut.


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

JonEisberg said:


> That's a very important point, I suspect many end users are abusing their diesels just as much, if not more, in this regard, than they might be with their particular choice of oil...
> 
> One of my biggest gripes about the overwhelming percentage of production boats, is how little attention is paid by the builder to properly ventilating the engine compartment, and providing the engine with sufficient air...
> 
> Even the smallest of diesels consume a surprising amount of air. In most installations out there, however, that airflow often only comes from whatever air might 'leak' into the engine space from the bilges, or thru cockpit lockers... It's extremely rare to see a production boat today, with a dedicated inlet and exhaust setup configured for the engine compartment. Same thing for batteries, as well, many of them are probably sitting in spaces that could be kept far cooler, if only properly ventilated or exhausted...


Wait until you get a blown out thruhull in your boat, you will be surprised how porous your bilge is. Trust me, not only does your engine get plenty of air, but it keeps the engine compartment very cool in the process, much cooler then under the hood of the car.

A marine diesel engine should have all of these.
Tach, pyro, water and oil temp, oil pressure, transmission temp ( on hyrdos) voltage, fuel pressure.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

UnionPacific said:


> Wait until you get a blown out thruhull in your boat, you will be surprised how porous your bilge is. Trust me, not only does your engine get plenty of air, but it keeps the engine compartment very cool in the process, much cooler then under the hood of the car.


Well, I'm guessing you perhaps haven't seen some of the other boats I've run... 

Particularly as more and more modern boats are featuring aft staterooms and twin quarter cabins, largely in the effort to keep engine noise to a minimum for those Boat of the Year Judges with their decibel meters in hand, some of those machinery spaces have become remarkably well 'sealed'...


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

JonEisberg said:


> Well, I'm guessing you perhaps haven't seen some of the other boats I've run...
> 
> Particularly as more and more modern boats are featuring aft staterooms and twin quarter cabins, largely in the effort to keep engine noise to a minimum for those Boat of the Year Judges with their decibel meters in hand, some of those machinery spaces have become remarkably well 'sealed'...


your correct. I have only been on a handful of cookie cuter boats. Enough to know I do not like them, and prefer a true semi-custom boat. Thou I could shoot the person who designed our boats interior... Two chart stations? .... jerks.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

christian.hess said:


> https://cglapps.chevron.com/msdspds/PDSDetailPage.aspx?docDataId=77106&docFormat=PDF
> 
> delo 100 40 weight is just the same as any straight weight oils they are deisgned by nature to operate in a very regulated temp, rpm and design
> 
> ...


If the answers to my questions were in here I am too slow to catch on.

Operating temp specification of the oil. I do NOT believe that this is the same as the operating temp of the engine. My thermostat is set to let my engine run at above 150f...

Is the operating temp specification the engine room air? I plan to moitor me engine room temp as it is double layer soundproofed (though it does have several 4" diameter vents and a blower.

As for the numbers on the oil let me ask it this way.

Chevron Delo 400 SAE 30
Chevron Delo 100 SAE 30

Difference between the two?


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

JonEisberg said:


> That's a very important point, I suspect many end users are abusing their diesels just as much, if not more, in this regard, than they might be with their particular choice of oil...
> 
> One of my biggest gripes about the overwhelming percentage of production boats, is how little attention is paid by the builder to properly ventilating the engine compartment, and providing the engine with sufficient air...
> 
> Even the smallest of diesels consume a surprising amount of air. In most installations out there, however, that airflow often only comes from whatever air might 'leak' into the engine space from the bilges, or thru cockpit lockers... It's extremely rare to see a production boat today, with a dedicated inlet and exhaust setup configured for the engine compartment. Same thing for batteries, as well, many of them are probably sitting in spaces that could be kept far cooler, if only properly ventilated or exhausted...


Diesel air/fuel ratios are not well understood by many, even the majority of people. Anyone familiar with gas engines usually knows that 14.7 to 1 is the "ideal" A/F ratio (for combustion efficiency - 13 or 14 to 1 is more common for best power.)

Diesels on the other hand run DOUBLE that or more - 27 to 1 and as high as 40-1. That's one of the principal reasons they are so economical.

If you have a well sealed up engine compartment you should have an air hose feeding the compartment bigger than the engine air horn.

I've heard stories of air starved diesels actually bowing in the sides of the engine compartment with the vacuum they create.


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

MedSailor said:


> If the answers to my questions were in here I am too slow to catch on.
> 
> Operating temp specification of the oil. I do NOT believe that this is the same as the operating temp of the engine. My thermostat is set to let my engine run at above 150f...
> 
> ...


I do not see a SAE 30 listed in delco 400, and delco 400 looks like the current product, 100 an out of production product.

http://www.deloperformance.com/products/engine-oils.aspx


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

UnionPacific said:


> I do not see a SAE 30 listed in delco 400, and delco 400 looks like the current product, 100 an out of production product.
> 
> Engine Oils, Synthetic Motor Oil, Delo 400 LE, SAE 15W-40 - Delo - (United States)


We had our marine Detroit diesel in about 1964. I think it was just plain "Delo" 30 wt that we used in it. Our VW automotive diesels were in about 1979 to 1990 or so? At that time I think we used Delo 400 15-40 wt. Don't remember Delo 100?

One thing sort of concerned me on both engine series, the oil turned black after just a few hours, which may be "normal"?

Paul T


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

dabnis said:


> We had our marine Detroit diesel in about 1964. I think it was just plain "Delo" 30 wt that we used in it. Our VW automotive diesels were in about 1979 to 1990 or so? At that time I think we used Delo 400 15-40 wt. Don't remember Delo 100?
> 
> One thing sort of concerned me on both engine series, the oil turned black after just a few hours, which may be "normal"?
> 
> Paul T


yes, diesel oil will hold the soot, and turn black in no time.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

As I see it, we use oil for three things. Lubrication, anti-corrosion and to carry away contaminants.

Lubrication.... With any reasonable change period, up to annually, I don't see this as an issue at all.

Anti-corrosion.... Accomplished by adhesion to metal during rest and additives used as counter measures. I suspect synthetics have more or better in this regard, but easy enough to change dino oil more often and be cost effective.

Contaminants.... While a job for your filter to get large stuff, the oil gets dirty with blow-by gasses, etc. No filter gets them all and some accessories, such as turbos, can really be finicky when it comes to contaminated oil. Synthetic or not. 

In the end, I just don't see the advantage of synthetic oil. You can't just leave contaminants in the pan, just because the oil is still slippery.


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

Minnewaska said:


> As I see it, we use oil for three things. Lubrication, anti-corrosion and to carry away contaminants.
> 
> Lubrication.... With any reasonable change period, up to annually, I don't see this as an issue at all.
> 
> ...


If you are more ecominded you get one of these. or just want to keep your oil without changing forever.
By-Pass Oil Filtration


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

UnionPacific said:


> If you are more ecominded you get one of these. or just want to keep your oil without changing forever.
> By-Pass Oil Filtration


Steve D'Antonio wrote an excellent article on bypass filtration awhile back for PASSAGEMAKER, I've cited it a few times here before...... Unfortunately, it's one of his few articles that does not seem to be archived online, one has to find an actual copy of the mag, but it's well worth reading. I believe Steve has a book soon to be published, I'm sure he'll address the issue within...

This summer was my first long trip since I installed a bypass filter... I was amazed at how much longer it took for the oil to become black with soot, the oil definitely remained cleaner to the eye, longer... Should come as no surprise, as 2 microns is a hell of a lot finer than any full-flow filters out there...


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## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

UnionPacific said:


> I do not see a SAE 30 listed in delco 400, and delco 400 looks like the current product, 100 an out of production product.
> 
> Engine Oils, Synthetic Motor Oil, Delo 400 LE, SAE 15W-40 - Delo - (United States)


Don't know where you are looking for the delo 100 but its in stock at oriely here Chevron Delo 100-40-1 - Motor Oil | O'Reilly Auto Parts


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

The Delo 100 as I recall, altho not an oil expert mind you, is an older formulation, that might work better on older motors, where as the 400 is a better, newer formulation. BOTH will work in our motors for the most part.

I've seen both at local auto parts stores and WM for that matter.

marty


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

dabnis said:


> In one of the many off road motorcycles I had over the years, a Honda air cooled single, I switched over to synthetic after the break in period. Many of the areas we rode in had LONG, STEEP, COBBY uphills. That bike would get so hot it would literally burn the insides of my legs from radiated heat. I could never tell any difference, performance wise, between regular & synthetic oils, but maybe the engine would live longer?
> 
> Interesting chart:
> 
> ...


yup motul 5000 ester blend was the ones recomended for my old xr600 if racing hard in hot areas

however the rattle the engine made with that oil was too untolerable for me

synthetics(good ones have such good lubricity) that they simply rattle too much...they are so good, they also have impressive heat toleration

the downfall is price per value or useage and in some cases you drink more oil when switching to synthetic from a dino based oil again because of the lubricity or sheer factor they are so good at...

on my old honda I went dino delo 400 15-40 and changed at the intervals stated in the MANUAL which was every 800-1000miles

but then someone came and said Iwant to change every 3k so what oil is best for me and of course an oil thread war starts...

for those people a good synthetic does indeed offer better performance for "them"

anywhoo

peace bud


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

MedSailor said:


> If the answers to my questions were in here I am too slow to catch on.
> 
> Operating temp specification of the oil. I do NOT believe that this is the same as the operating temp of the engine. My thermostat is set to let my engine run at above 150f...
> 
> ...


did you read the link I posted? its just another type of oil supplied by delo, Im guessing a newer version

the delo 100 link I posted was 40 weight not 30 my bad

oil operating temp most of us should know this anything in the WATER BOILING TEMperature is considered best in MOST engines diesel or not the perfect operating temp

so that is at or near the 200f ish. so your oil will be slightly higher than that in order to burn off condensation.

your thermostat at 150f is pretty standard(however diesels run hotter than gas engines for the most part)

thats why said getting an OIL temp gauge in addition or on the same line as the low oil alarm buzzer is a great way to monitor OIL TEMP

you can also run an oil temp gauge in the OIL PRESSURE sending unit too. or on the hottest part of the oil flow in the system.

and before people go berzerk

think about it

why does grandmas car that only gets driven to the grocery store and back have a worse condition engine(pitting, acidic oil, burnt shims, and bearings, cams, etc) versus the eternal highway commuter?

the answer is simple grandma never gets the car to good operating temp(operating temp includes, water or cooling temp, oil temp and pressure and overall engine temps) in order to burn off condensation within the belly pan and crankcase so you have rust and pitting excarcebated

2. oil when left to sit becomes acidic and will pit an otherwise "perfectly" BABIED run engine
2a marine diesel engines die young from being babied too much, punch that sucker hard under load against the wind every month and your exhaust, elbows, pistons, etc will thank you for it
seafoam it at the same time and it will kiss you back!:laugher

3. no matter what oil, the key to the best results are correct operating temp(that includes oil temp, ambient temp and ENGINE TEMP) 
frequent oil changes regardless of brand hype, $$ etc

4. NEVER EVER RUN LOW ON OIL regardless again of brand hype etc

thats about it for temps

regarding your double sound proof engine room be very carefull as this will make it very hard for you to discern and abnormal noised in there from the cockipt etc so make darn sure you can monitor

oil temp and pressure at all times
engine temp
coolant temp and level

when double soundproofing remember you are significantly reducing AIR BOX VOLUME

so maybe think about slightly AIR RAMMING the engine room with a dorade or or special waterproof vent

hope this helps a bit med

good luck with the new engine


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

blt2ski said:


> The Delo 100 as I recall, altho not an oil expert mind you, is an older formulation, that might work better on older motors, where as the 400 is a better, newer formulation. BOTH will work in our motors for the most part.
> 
> I've seen both at local auto parts stores and WM for that matter.
> 
> marty


makes sense I had it the other way around, but I have only used delo 400 15-40 in almost all my vehicles and engines now...

I did use straight grade 40 in my bike for one race and it did fine, however it was a 1 time use oil and filter


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

christian.hess said:


> did you read the link I posted?


Actually, I didn't until just now. That was bad form, sorry.

Hey welcome back! Hopefully you've been too busy sailing to post! (not the problem I've been having)

I did a little more research and the best I could come up with so far is that delo 100 is suitable for 2 stroke or 4 stroke diesels. The Detroit folks were adamant about that and it is supported in Chevron's data sheets. Aside from that I can't find meaningful differences, though while searching Chevron's data sheets I found delo 1000. Ooohhhh.... aaaahhhh... a higher number! It must be better right? 

Medsailor

PS I plan to monitor my new engine in a way that the NSA would be proud of, but what's the purpose of engine oil temp monitoring? What would you do if it's too hot or cold?


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

luv4sailin said:


> I put about 50-60 hours a year on my diesel these days since I did something really, really stupid...getting a job. As the boat is not hauled for the winter, being that I live in Florida, I change the oil every 12-15 months. Given that change frequency, should I be using synthetic oil rather than "conventional" motor oil?
> 
> Thank you in advance for your input.
> 
> ...


Well, back to the original question. I think oil threads are similar to anchor & political threads, they can go on & on. 

I can only speak from my own experience, and am not even close to being an expert on anything. I have been tinkering, working on & maintaining engines, both gas & diesel for about 68 years. I have always changed the oil sooner than "the book" calls for. In 1992 I bought a new Honda Accord which I later sold to a good friend. I used to change the oil about every 2,000 miles, maybe 3,000 if it was mostly highway driving.

That car is still easily passing California smog tests, running fine, with well over 300,000 miles on it. The only internal work was one new timing belt.

I would do the following:

1. Change the oil & filter early & often, like voting. 

2. Make sure the oil designation, CD, etc., & viscosity meets the Mfr's specs.

3. On a marine engine, from time to time, get the oil analyzed by a lab, just for the heck of it.

4. If your Mfr's specs allow for the use of synthetics, take your pick. Either oil will get contaminated with bad stuff over time.

Compared to the overall cost of an engine, oil & filters represent a very small cost for what they do. If you need to save money, drink cheap wine. 

Paul T


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## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

Just speced the delo 1000 and says designed for marine use Chevron Marine Engine Oils Delo 1000 Marine have extremely good viscosity control in severe high temperature service. They have a high degree of water tolerance. Water can be centrifuged out with essentially no loss of additive. Water washing of the oil, however, is not recommended and here's the real surprise it has a tbn of 12 and this is the 30 wt oil. Now to find it for sale somewere


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

MedSailor said:


> Actually, I didn't until just now. That was bad form, sorry.
> 
> Hey welcome back! Hopefully you've been too busy sailing to post! (not the problem I've been having)
> 
> ...


for some ungodly reason its not more common, actually its because it costs more to have it installed from the factory....some engines dont even have pressure gauges just low oil feed buzzers, a la yanmar.

in any case knowing your oil temp and pressure can tell you many manu things

1. correct pressure at startup, correct pressure after full warm up...if after full warm up or after a good 3-5 hour run you notice your pressure drops drastically(all engines lose pressure as the oil thins) you have either slack tolerances or are way over spec on stuff like crank seals, bearings cam shaft shims, etc...this is a great way to see how TIRED any engine is

2. too high or too low oil temp can be indicative of worn or old oil that has lost its viscocity or improper oil flow or restricted oil flow, or a worn oil pump that isnt pushing enough oil etc...

if its too low you get sludge and sedimentation and soot in fact, too high and well thats self explanatory, thats when you get burnt piston tops, scored cylinders and warped cranks and rods etc...

anywhoo

you dont NEED an oil temp gauge but there is no shame in having one either

and ps no Im noty sailing yet

close very close! jajaja


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

christian.hess said:


> for some ungodly reason its not more common, actually its because it costs more to have it installed from the factory....some engines dont even have pressure gauges just low oil feed buzzers, a la yanmar.


Nice to see you back around here again, christian... 

That's something I will never understand, amazing how many small diesels have no oil pressure gauge, what the hell are they thinking?

My Perkins M-30 never had one, either... On the recommendation of Bill Seifert in his 200 PASSAGEMAKING TIPS, I installed a Murphy Swichgage manual gauge, wired to an alarm...

Very nice little unit...

FW Murphy Swichgage


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

JonEisberg said:


> That's something I will never understand, amazing how many small diesels have no oil pressure gauge, what the hell are they thinking?


Pretty simple really - some bean counter said "We'll save $7.82 per unit if we leave it off".

So they did. It's not just them either - I drive a Jag XJR - supercharged 4 cam, 4 valve V8 and it only has a tach, a speedo, a water temp and gas gauges.

Lots of digital info available re: gas mileage, trip odo etc. but no way to check on oil pressure, oil temp, volts - anything. Everything is idiot lights - in an expensive high performance car.

My Pontiac minivan does better - it has oil & volts as well as the other 4


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

Jaguar used to put in real oil pressure gauges, but people complained about low pressure at idle when hot. So the x300 got a gauge, but wired to a switch! It read middle of the gauge all the time. 

A lot of modern temperature gauges are heavily processed, for example the one on my Discovery read N from 140 to 250c. I suspect the Jag one has some conditioning too.

I have an XJR too. Most bonkers car I've ever had. The James Bond of cars - refined one minute, complete psycho the next.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

I know not of what you speak. The "youngest" car i have ever purchased was built in 1991 (rhough i liked my 89 nissan pathfinder much better). 

I prefer to drive old cars and live in and old/small house to help support my boat habit. 

Medsailor


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

MedSailor said:


> Actually, I didn't until just now. That was bad form, sorry.
> 
> Hey welcome back! Hopefully you've been too busy sailing to post! (not the problem I've been having)
> 
> ...


If you oil is too hot and its irregular, you have an issue, and would want to shut down soon. If its always too hot you may have an oil cooler issue you need to fix.


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

SloopJonB said:


> Pretty simple really - some bean counter said "We'll save $7.82 per unit if we leave it off".
> 
> So they did. It's not just them either - I drive a Jag XJR - supercharged 4 cam, 4 valve V8 and it only has a tach, a speedo, a water temp and gas gauges.
> 
> ...






They would not notice it anyway. This is a real problem as a pilot you must overcome, but here in America to get a car license you must simply drive to a spot and parallel park.... no wonder we have high accident rates. I am all for implementing a Scandinavian flick and J turn in our driving tests. None the less this is why, it would go unnoticed.



MedSailor said:


> I know not of what you speak. The "youngest" car i have ever purchased was built in 1991 (rhough i liked my 89 nissan pathfinder much better).
> 
> I prefer to drive old cars and live in and old/small house to help support my boat habit.
> 
> Medsailor


I use to drive old cars, my favorite series being the 300ZX. I miss talking cars and digital dashboards.


JonEisberg said:


> Nice to see you back around here again, christian...
> 
> That's something I will never understand, amazing how many small diesels have no oil pressure gauge, what the hell are they thinking?
> 
> ...


My 7hp kubota has one


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

JonEisberg said:


> Nice to see you back around here again, christian...
> 
> That's something I will never understand, amazing how many small diesels have no oil pressure gauge, what the hell are they thinking?
> 
> ...


nice unit...

and thanks for the welcome back...I am now back in the states with my family enjoying a peacefull and fulfilling life...in Georgia. so I guess Im a semi east coast sailor now....uh oh!


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

MedSailor said:


> I know not of what you speak. The "youngest" car i have ever purchased was built in 1991 (rhough i liked my 89 nissan pathfinder much better).
> 
> I prefer to drive old cars and live in and old/small house to help support my boat habit.
> 
> Medsailor


my old montero 86 had stuff new cars wont ever have, compass, inclinometer, temp gauges, oil pressure and TEMP etc...

I currently drive an isuzu rodeo which I have learned to love! and so cheap yet well made(despite what naysayers say)

the first thing I would check when starting(carbed engine) was to check oil pressure...if it wasnt maxed out the first minute or so it meant the oil wasnt up to spec and lost its sheer factor and most of its lubricity, and good quailities like detergents and anti emulsifiers etc...

after getting up to temp and running around town I would manually check the oil and of course it was thinner and frothy looking and of course my pressure was down into the teens instead of a nice solid 40-60psi which was normal operating pressure.

its actually the easiest way to gauge how your engine is running, even better than coolant temp. simply because you know how the engine internals are being lubed and or cooled...if oil flow fails or is out of spec you can damage your engine much much more than a simple head gasket fail or radiator snap etc...

those things will be so obvious, lack or bad oil flow and or too hot or scorched internals arent as quick to discern and cause permanent damages versus easily replaceable parts damage like a radiator or head gasket leak etc...

anywhooo

just my cents into the fire


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

JonEisberg said:


> Very nice little unit...
> 
> FW Murphy Swichgage


Now that's cool.... I like the simplicity of the unit.

I could wire the max temp up to my engine shutdown solenoid. I probably couldn't wire low oil pressure to a shutdown solenoid because it wouldn't let me start the engine.

MedSailor


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

MedSailor said:


> Now that's cool.... I like the simplicity of the unit.
> 
> I could wire the max temp up to my engine shutdown solenoid. I probably couldn't wire low oil pressure to a shutdown solenoid because it wouldn't let me start the engine.
> 
> MedSailor


Poke around the Murphy site, I'm almost certain there's a workaround for that issue... Seems to me they have a configuration using a relay or something that is commonly used for industrial/agricultural generators that are not continuously monitored, that will shut down the unit if the oil pressure drops...


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## Missingyou (Aug 16, 2013)

Way too much is made of the differences between Synthetic and Modern DINO. The additive packages are far more important. Without the additives Synthetic Oil is just oil, but a better refinement of oil than DINO. Nothing magical. A lot of car manufacturers are now recommending Synthetic instead of DINO, especially in high performance engines, mine included. Part of the problem with DINO is all of the other crap that's in it, like paraffin that falls out or breaks down as sludge. Yes you can change your oil more often to minimize this and for some it might make more sense, but changing your oil is not free. 

I am also not a fan of changing oil just for the sake of changing it. The old concern about acids and such is not relevant if your oil is of a modern blend and still healthy. If you are concerned go to Amazon and buy a prepaid WIX Oil Sample Kit. Add postage to send it to the lab and it's little more than $20. It will tell you a lot about your oil instead of speculating, and may save you an oil change, or three. It may also lend insight into the state of your engine that you might not otherwise know, that's money better spent than just dumping oil.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

Missingyou said:


> Way too much is made of the differences between Synthetic and Modern DINO. The additive packages are far more important. Without the additives Synthetic Oil is just oil, but a better refinement of oil than DINO. Nothing magical. A lot of car manufacturers are now recommending Synthetic instead of DINO, especially in high performance engines, mine included. Part of the problem with DINO is all of the other crap that's in it, like paraffin that falls out or breaks down as sludge. Yes you can change your oil more often to minimize this and for some it might make more sense, but changing your oil is not free.
> 
> I am also not a fan of changing oil just for the sake of changing it. The old concern about acids and such is not relevant if your oil is of a modern blend and still healthy. If you are concerned go to Amazon and buy a prepaid WIX Oil Sample Kit. Add postage to send it to the lab and it's little more than $20. It will tell you a lot about your oil instead of speculating, and may save you an oil change, or three. It may also lend insight into the state of your engine that you might not otherwise know, that's money better spent than just dumping oil.


very true

this is why its always impressive to see how dino vs. synthetic oil threads still abound...

the info is out there, real life experience is out there but new owners of engines always want "the best" for their engine...if you don´t know its never bad to ask...



I agree that if you have the $$ for either a diy test kit or enough to send out to blackstone on a new or new to you engine that will be the best money spent as its the best type of preventative maintenance.

ill be the first to admit that I get overzelous with my equipment sometimes and like to tinker, but those that dont would benefit tremendously from a simple sample of their oil...knowing whats up will help them stay coolheaded with their current engine

lastly delo400 for decades now even after their lower sulfide and detergent change still offers damn near the best overall bang for buck oil for most any 10, 20, 30 year old diesel(and other engines) and what I like about it is it doesnt soot and sludge as much as other oils I have tried which can be heavily attributed to the high detergent, anti foaming and emulsifying agents

(before this sounds like a sales splooge I did not use it in my euro renault engine that specd thinner oils because of higher performing and tolerances in said engines.)

and despite that I still religously change the oil even though its not imperative to change at that time

the same can be said for rotella dino which was my fave for motorcycles but much more expensive down south than delo at pricemart

another very very good dino oil is mobil delvac fleet truck oil or whatever its labeled as...

anywhoo

ps. and so nobody thinks this is all just baloney I had a very very eyeopening experience one time down here using a sheer machine used to prove the benefits of oil thickeners and additives that prevent breakdown as I was going to be hired to sell some new oil

the funniest thing happened to the trainer that was instructing me

he used 10-40 oil dino stuff then added stp zddp additive to the oil(which I love btw) and the bearings stopped at say 15-20 seconds cant remember the pressure on the arm but it was a lot.

then he used his "new snake oil" to prove it was better and guess what???

the damn machine screached to a halt in half the time of the old stp and 10-40 oil

he then added the stp zddp to his new oil and lo and behold it did better but not as good as the regular dino 10-40 with good ole stp

what does this all have to do with dino versus synthetic and so on?

well simply put EXPERIENCE and a cool head beats new fandangled hype and ads on newer better whatever stuff all day long...

if you know your engine purrs like a kitten, comes back good from a lab sample and doesnt burn oil, smell bad or have any weird noised DONT SWITCH OIL

EVER!

engines, seals, bearings and such do indeed benefit from a single brand and weight of oil over their lifetime

if anyone is interested search "switching to synthetic in wet clutch motorcycles"

and you will find all the reasons for NOT switching back and forth...

its not the switching from synthetic to dino and back that does anything

its the fact that the seals, clutch fibers and plates soak in a certain amount of the old oil and will need many flushes(at least 3,4 if using old clutch) to get rid of the old stuff to prevent slippage

has nothing to do with whats commonly though out there...

oils do indeed cling to engine internals...so if you do switch never expect imediate results but do your due dilligence and find out what you need to do to get good results.(example you will have to do flushes with cheap oil for example to flush out the old stuff)

anywhoo

verbal diarhea out


----------



## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

christian.hess said:


> ..........
> 
> anywhoo
> 
> verbal diarhea out


Me feels you have been using a bit too much Shell Rosmella deezal oil, it causes this problem at times. Delo does not........

or maybe it is the other way around?!?!?!?!

or maybe it is synthetic vs dino that causes this........

oh I am sooooooooo 

Marty


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

blt2ski said:


> Me feels you have been using a bit too much Shell Rosmella deezal oil, it causes this problem at times. Delo does not........
> 
> or maybe it is the other way around?!?!?!?!
> 
> ...


ME THINKS YOU ARE RIGHT

NEVER DRINK THE KOOL AID

in the motorcycle world than means never go ORANGE

oh no


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

christian.hess said:


> ME THINKS YOU ARE RIGHT
> 
> NEVER DRINK THE KOOL AID
> 
> ...


OUCHIE,,,,

now you done did it, you thinkadid......OUCH.....

dang nabbit, now ye hurt my brain electron doing that thinking.......OUCH.....

no more of that whatever it were you are doing, hurts too much!

so I'll just agree to be ornery in the meantime......none of the thinking stuff.......OUCH.....dang it, that hurts too.....

Where is me rum coke and popcorn when I need it........for the headache of course......

are wees off subject yet?:laugher:laugher:laugher


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

MedSailor said:


> Now that's cool.... I like the simplicity of the unit.
> 
> I could wire the max temp up to my engine shutdown solenoid. I probably couldn't wire low oil pressure to a shutdown solenoid because it wouldn't let me start the engine.
> 
> MedSailor


you could wire a bypass to the start button.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

UnionPacific said:


> you could wire a bypass to the start button.


I have an upper and lower helm. Currently there is only a key (and alarms) at the lower helm. It's wired so that the alarms all go off when you turn the key before startup.

I need to change all that. First I need to be able to start and stop the engine from the upper helm. Second, I don't want the alarms going off below when the engine is started up top.

Hmmm.... lots of wiring to rethink....

MedSailor


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

MedSailor said:


> I have an upper and lower helm. Currently there is only a key (and alarms) at the lower helm. It's wired so that the alarms all go off when you turn the key before startup.
> 
> I need to change all that. First I need to be able to start and stop the engine from the upper helm. Second, I don't want the alarms going off below when the engine is started up top.
> 
> ...


the starter button is connected the the starter selonoid. that is where you connect the bypass, not at the actual button.
You rebuilding your current engine then?


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

UnionPacific said:


> the starter button is connected the the starter selonoid. that is where you connect the bypass, not at the actual button.
> *You rebuilding your current engine then?*


Most likely. Still waiting to know what insurance will do. Rebuild seems like the best option though no matter what they decide.


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

MedSailor said:


> Most likely. Still waiting to know what insurance will do. Rebuild seems like the best option though no matter what they decide.


FYI you can remove the link in your sig, it just goes to your avatar pic???

I would rebuild it. why fix whats not broken. Just shop for the best price, and do what you can yourself. 
Don't forget while the engine is out, repaint under it.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

christian.hess said:


> nice unit...
> 
> and thanks for the welcome back...I am now back in the states with my family enjoying a peacefull and fulfilling life...in Georgia. so I guess Im a semi east coast sailor now....uh oh!


Welcome back c.h.

Didn't you run a restaurant in Central America? That's a big change to Columbus, GA. What's the draw? Long way from the ocean too. What's the sailing plan?


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## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

blt2ski said:


> OUCHIE,,,,
> 
> now you done did it, you thinkadid......OUCH.....
> 
> ...


Were we ever really on topic after the first page :clobber


----------



## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

Minnewaska said:


> Welcome back c.h.
> 
> Didn't you run a restaurant in Central America? That's a big change to Columbus, GA. What's the draw? Long way from the ocean too. What's the sailing plan?


dont want to hijack this thread however I updated a bunch of my older threads including my rebuild thread

Im in the states now with my family thank God and trying to enjoy life in a peaceful way.



peace


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

I hate to hijack this thread with a return to topic, but :

I did a little research and it appears there is one time where synthetic oil should be avoided, and that's during break-in. This is because during break-in you are trying to create controlled wear of the bores.

Here is an explanation :

AMSOIL Break-In Oil (SAE 30)

It seems reasonable to me.

So once the bores are conditioned and appropriately worn, switch to synthetic to minimise further wear.

I quote :

" the oil must allow the correct level of "controlled wear" to occur between the cylinder wall/ring interface while maintaining wear protection on other critical engine parts. Insufficient break-in leaves behind peaks on the cylinder wall that prevent the rings from seating. The deeper valleys, meanwhile, allow excess oil to collect and burn during combustion, increasing oil consumption. Too much wear results in cylinder glazing due to peaks "rolling over" into the valleys and preventing oil from collecting and adequately lubricating the cylinder wall."

I think it's a garbled version of this break-in advice that is the foundation of this misinformation, extrapolated from break-in to the entire life of the engine :

"The problem isn't a lack of lubrication with synthetic oil, it's that synthetics in cool running marine diesels glaze the cylinder walls and build up a very hard deposit on the edge of the piston crown that will score the cylinder. "


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

My Ford Lehman takes nearly 3 gallons of oil per change. Based on all the conflicting data, without reviewing it in detail, my opinion is that synthetic might cause harm (not likely IMHO) and may have some incremental benefit.

In my case I doubt the incremental benefit would be worth the cost. I would think I could put half the money I'd spend on gallon after gallon of synthetic into more frequent dyno oil changes and/or a bypass oil filter.

MedSailor


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

MarkSF said:


> I hate to hijack this thread with a return to topic, but :
> 
> I did a little research and it appears there is one time where synthetic oil should be avoided, and that's during break-in. This is because during break-in you are trying to create controlled wear of the bores.
> 
> ...


Interesting info. Honda states their newer engines are filled with "Honda engineered" 0-20 oil. They also instruct to not change the original oil 
before the recommended interval, 6,000 miles, IIRC

The only 0-20 oil I could find was synthetic.

Paul T

Paul T


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

MarkSF said:


> I hate to hijack this thread with a return to topic, but :
> 
> I did a little research and it appears there is one time where synthetic oil should be avoided, and that's during break-in. This is because during break-in you are trying to create controlled wear of the bores.
> 
> ...


dont get me started on correct break in procedure man

thats like asking what oil is best

wink wink

bobs the oil guys site has some awesome info out there for those that want to learn more


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

dabnis said:


> Interesting info. Honda states their newer engines are filled with "Honda engineered" 0-20 oil. They also instruct to not change the original oil
> before the recommended interval, 6,000 miles, IIRC
> 
> The only 0-20 oil I could find was synthetic.
> ...


in the motorcycle world especially 2 stroke and older aircooled 4 strokes there is a strict routine to adhere to the first few oil flushes if you care about performance and no oil burning that is

also on many engines the most important btreak in procedure is gradual rpm and high throttle runs and in many cases downshifting and engine compression braking on downhills

what this does is exert pressure against both walls or non thrust side of the cylinders whereas on normal acceleration force is usually applied on just the thrust side

rings SEAT this way as they are being blasted against the walls, they wont if you baby the damn engine.

glaszing occurs exponentially faster on engines that run at a steady rpm

glazing doesnt just occur from wrong oil type many factors like incorrect warm up, uneven temps in cylinder walls(think thermostat) and stuff like bad breakin by BABYING an engine thinking that since its new it supposed to be that way

the huge thing here or factor is to get even cylinder wall temps...if the bottom of the cylinder(especially on sleeved types) never gets up to temp compared to the tops where the banging occurs what happens is the walls become egg shaped, now just so you laugh some engines come with egg shaped cylinders initially to aid in ring seating...beleive it or not

ps. the reason most motorcycle(and engine for that matter) manufacturers stay to only go up to certain rpms, throtte simply is because its a safety precaution they have to put on by ways of legalities and such.

has nothing to do with correct break in procedure

what you want to avoid in any engine breakin is steady rpm no load scenarios

anywhoo


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

MedSailor said:


> My Ford Lehman takes nearly 3 gallons of oil per change. Based on all the conflicting data, without reviewing it in detail, my opinion is that synthetic might cause harm (not likely IMHO) and may have some incremental benefit.
> 
> In my case I doubt the incremental benefit would be worth the cost. I would think I could put half the money I'd spend on gallon after gallon of synthetic into more frequent dyno oil changes and/or a bypass oil filter.
> 
> MedSailor


dont even consider it man:laugher


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

MedSailor said:


> My Ford Lehman takes nearly 3 gallons of oil per change. Based on all the conflicting data, without reviewing it in detail, my opinion is that synthetic might cause harm (not likely IMHO) and may have some incremental benefit.
> 
> In my case I doubt the incremental benefit would be worth the cost. I would think I could put half the money I'd spend on gallon after gallon of synthetic into more frequent dyno oil changes and/or a bypass oil filter.
> 
> MedSailor


That much synth would cost so much it would be cheaper to just buy a new engine every few years. 

Reminded me of my old Jag E-Type - also took a full case of oil for a change.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

SloopJonB said:


> That much synth would cost so much it would be cheaper to just buy a new engine every few years.
> 
> Reminded me of my old Jag E-Type - also took a full case of oil for a change.


That's just to account for all the leaking it'll do between changes. :laugher

"You know what they say about Old british engines. If there ain't no oil under 'em there ain't no oil in 'em." --Tow Mater

MedSailor (former leaky Perkins 4.108 owner)


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Actually, leaking oil was the one thing that car *didn't* do.

Now if you want to talk about windshield wipers (3) that turn themselves on, on sunny days or speedo's that only last 40K miles.......


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## windnrock (May 27, 2012)

After researching Synthetic vs. Conventional I have come to the conclusion that it really doesn't matter. Spending more money (about double) for no particular gain is a choice you make with synthetic. Just get oil that meets your engine manufacturer's requirements and meets your operating conditions and use. Multi viscosity, in the 10-40, 15-40 range has good temp range and more additives to meet a wide range of operating conditions. Look for a service grade of CF, CJ-4 or CJ-4 Plus. I try to follow the manufacturer's suggested change routine (Oil change 250 hrs and filter 500 hrs) but tend to push it out a bit more as they tend to be conservative. One thing that can make a big difference is the addition of a by-pass filter in conjunction with the full flow. You can possibly double your oil life, but it does require more filters. I use a much larger filter for the by-pass. I can't report how it is working though as I haven't changed anything since the install. I figure on changing the full flow at 350, the bypass at 400 and the oil at 600. If it looks good, I'll push it out a bit more. I'm hoping to do an oil change about every two years. Remember to look at and feel your oil when you do a level check. I realize there are those who think me mad, I don't care! There is more than enough evidence that supports my experiment to reduce my oil use.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

by pass filters are common in other vehicles for example its nothing new, what it does in essence is allow for flow in the case of extreme blockage...has nothing to do with extending the oil more unless for example you routinely overheat or overrev or use oil of unknown quality

its great for example when your out in the boonies and you simply want oil to flow regardless of filttering and can change after use(offroad motorcycles come to mind here)

however when overusing a bypass filter or system you have to be carfeul and routinely check your oil pumps reason being they can and will be scarred more than on a finer filtering system

the thing I have an issue with here is some people are just lazy..they expect engines to perform no matter what and they are always looking for ways to not do maintenance on them

these same people also have an issue with for example ELECTRIC vehicles and technology when you would think it would be perfect for them!

instead they argue about range...

some people cant be pleased

regarding oil, type, weight and whether its "synth" or not

just do the maintenance specd in your manual give or take 20% leeway on changes for example if you have had an easy engine use and are only a few hours off your change routine nothing extreme is going to happen just dont run on stinky, black thinned out highly carboned and lube less oil. SIMPLE

just dont let oil sit for too long(use your engine routinely) dont procrastinate on simply maintenance like filters and oil/fluid changes and dont try to reinvent the wheel

there is no miracle oil worth risking permanent damage to your engine, crank, seals, bearings, shims etc...

just sayin


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

windnrock said:


> After researching Synthetic vs. Conventional I have come to the conclusion that it really doesn't matter. Spending more money (about double) for no particular gain is a choice you make with synthetic. Just get oil that meets your engine manufacturer's requirements and meets your operating conditions and use. Multi viscosity, in the 10-40, 15-40 range has good temp range and more additives to meet a wide range of operating conditions. Look for a service grade of CF, CJ-4 or CJ-4 Plus. I try to follow the manufacturer's suggested change routine (Oil change 250 hrs and filter 500 hrs) but tend to push it out a bit more as they tend to be conservative. One thing that can make a big difference is the addition of a by-pass filter in conjunction with the full flow. You can possibly double your oil life, but it does require more filters. I use a much larger filter for the by-pass. I can't report how it is working though as I haven't changed anything since the install. I figure on changing the full flow at 350, the bypass at 400 and the oil at 600. If it looks good, I'll push it out a bit more. I'm hoping to do an oil change about every two years. Remember to look at and feel your oil when you do a level check. I realize there are those who think me mad, I don't care! There is more than enough evidence that supports my experiment to reduce my oil use.


You can buy remote dual filter setups that would work better than a bypass add-on. Putting a coarser filter on the first one and finer on the second works well.

Filters are cheap - there's no reason to change them less frequently than the oil. They are full of old oil as well so they will contaminate the new.

DO NOT leave your changes to two years. "Feeling" the oil is meaningless - it always feels slippery and if you feel any grit your engine is already toast.

Oil oxidizes as well so the two year interval is asking for it.

Spend the $2 and do it at least annually, no matter how low the engine hours.


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## windnrock (May 27, 2012)

"by pass filters are common in other vehicles for example its nothing new, what it does in essence is allow for flow in the case of extreme blockage...has nothing to do with extending the oil more unless for example you routinely overheat or overrev or use oil of unknown quality"

Actually Christian, by-pass filter systems are NOT to allow for flow. The by-pass valve in your existing filter does that, allowing unfiltered oil to by-pass the filter when filter flow is restricted. A separate by-pass filter system simply filters oil and returns it to the sump. It increases the life of the oil by filtering the oil better. My pick-up for the by-pass is off the bottom of the pan and returns it to the gallery. By doing so, it removes the worst contamination as well as any moisture. The useful life of oil is determined by contamination, loss of viscosity and additives. We generally change our oil strictly because of contamination, it is still good oil, just dirty. The viscosity won't deteriorate in 500 hours, that is a simple fact. My engine requires 8 liters of oil, if I can double my use the 2 additional $8.00 filters are $20 cheaper than the additional oil, I have to go through the process of buying more oil, changing oil, recycling it (or storing it till I can) and the time that takes. This system makes me "greener" as well. 
I take umbrage at criticism of trying to reduce maintenance as well. I make that attempt with all the systems on my boat. It is not a matter of simply doing less and letting things go, it is a matter of using reason, technology and a little time to reduce the maintenance needed. In many places it is called progress. Improving the wheel is not reinventing it and doing things,"Because that's the way it's always been done" is, to put it mildly, silly. Thank heavens we have people who are "lazy" and want to improve things. Yes, I would like to have my boat maintenance free, it's not likely to happen but every where I can reduce it, I will try. All things being equal, I'd rather be sailing, or scuba diving, or just relaxing!

Value Engineering
Wisdom tells us all things fail, intelligence and experience allows us to replace it just before it happens.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

windnrock said:


> "by pass filters are common in other vehicles for example its nothing new, what it does in essence is allow for flow in the case of extreme blockage...has nothing to do with extending the oil more unless for example you routinely overheat or overrev or use oil of unknown quality"
> 
> Actually Christian, by-pass filter systems are NOT to allow for flow. The by-pass valve in your existing filter does that, allowing unfiltered oil to by-pass the filter when filter flow is restricted. A separate by-pass filter system simply filters oil and returns it to the sump. It increases the life of the oil by filtering the oil better. My pick-up for the by-pass is off the bottom of the pan and returns it to the gallery. By doing so, it removes the worst contamination as well as any moisture. The useful life of oil is determined by contamination, loss of viscosity and additives. We generally change our oil strictly because of contamination, it is still good oil, just dirty. The viscosity won't deteriorate in 500 hours, that is a simple fact. My engine requires 8 liters of oil, if I can double my use the 2 additional $8.00 filters are $20 cheaper than the additional oil, I have to go through the process of buying more oil, changing oil, recycling it (or storing it till I can) and the time that takes. This system makes me "greener" as well.
> I take umbrage at criticism of trying to reduce maintenance as well. I make that attempt with all the systems on my boat. It is not a matter of simply doing less and letting things go, it is a matter of using reason, technology and a little time to reduce the maintenance needed. In many places it is called progress. Improving the wheel is not reinventing it and doing things,"Because that's the way it's always been done" is, to put it mildly, silly. Thank heavens we have people who are "lazy" and want to improve things. Yes, I would like to have my boat maintenance free, it's not likely to happen but every where I can reduce it, I will try. All things being equal, I'd rather be sailing, or scuba diving, or just relaxing!
> ...


well if you are going to extend oil change interval I would suggest having the oil tested at least quarterly. It will let you know how long you can go, and more importantly what is going on in your engine. Blackstone labs are supposed to be good.


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## windnrock (May 27, 2012)

SloopJonB said:


> You can buy remote dual filter setups that would work better than a bypass add-on. Putting a coarser filter on the first one and finer on the second works well.
> 
> Filters are cheap - there's no reason to change them less frequently than the oil. They are full of old oil as well so they will contaminate the new.
> 
> ...


Dual filters do not pick up at the bottom of the sump. A By-Pass system can. Feeling oil is meaningless if you don't value additional information. It allows to to really look at it and yes, if you feel grit you can react. If you don't notice the grit and simply continue, yes, you may trash your engine. 
The rate of oxidation is dependent on the operating temps, quality and type of base oil as well as the additive package used. Oil has been improved incredibly since many of the maintenance schedules were implemented. Most newer engines also run cooler which helps tremendously. Then there is a HUGE amount of mis and disinformation from the oil industry. While they produce oil that is so much more stable, has vastly better heat resistance as well as detergents and other additives to work so much better, they still want you to buy more product. Don't pooh pooh this, they are a very powerful and persistent force. 
Leaving my oil in for two years would be dependent on a number of things, how much I run the engine, how I run the engine, increased contamination despite aggressive filtering, ph (to check for water), a viscosity check and other specs. You actually want to see if viscosity is increasing. I am not quite at the point to jump to two years, but it is a goal. I simply do not wish to dump a bunch of oil, that I paid for, before I am done with it. This is a matter of frugality as well as an environmental one. " Just dump it and don't be so cheap", you may say. I am simply saying, "Why, because that's what has always been done?". There are literally millions of applications where lubricants are used that are not changed for even decades. Many are higher heat uses to boot. 
I would like to know where to get an oil change for $2.00. My last oil (8 liters) and filter ran about $44.50 with tax. That my friend, is three six packs of decent beer.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

windnrock said:


> "by pass filters are common in other vehicles for example its nothing new, what it does in essence is allow for flow in the case of extreme blockage...has nothing to do with extending the oil more unless for example you routinely overheat or overrev or use oil of unknown quality"
> 
> Actually Christian, by-pass filter systems are NOT to allow for flow. The by-pass valve in your existing filter does that, allowing unfiltered oil to by-pass the filter when filter flow is restricted. A separate by-pass filter system simply filters oil and returns it to the sump. It increases the life of the oil by filtering the oil better. My pick-up for the by-pass is off the bottom of the pan and returns it to the gallery. By doing so, it removes the worst contamination as well as any moisture. The useful life of oil is determined by contamination, loss of viscosity and additives. We generally change our oil strictly because of contamination, it is still good oil, just dirty. The viscosity won't deteriorate in 500 hours, that is a simple fact. My engine requires 8 liters of oil, if I can double my use the 2 additional $8.00 filters are $20 cheaper than the additional oil, I have to go through the process of buying more oil, changing oil, recycling it (or storing it till I can) and the time that takes. This system makes me "greener" as well.
> I take umbrage at criticism of trying to reduce maintenance as well. I make that attempt with all the systems on my boat. It is not a matter of simply doing less and letting things go, it is a matter of using reason, technology and a little time to reduce the maintenance needed. In many places it is called progress. Improving the wheel is not reinventing it and doing things,"Because that's the way it's always been done" is, to put it mildly, silly. Thank heavens we have people who are "lazy" and want to improve things. Yes, I would like to have my boat maintenance free, it's not likely to happen but every where I can reduce it, I will try. All things being equal, I'd rather be sailing, or scuba diving, or just relaxing!
> ...


gotcha I had a dual or bypass system on my motorcyle doing what in essence you are doing

I was confused by your wording...

we are on the same page then

you are doing well on your oil system

only thing I may add is make sure your oil flow isnt less because of this extra filtering

on some engines you can reduce flow enough to do damage this is especially true at idle and low rpms and more so on cold startups...

other than that you have my a ok jajaja


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

windnrock said:


> "by pass filters are common in other vehicles for example its nothing new, what it does in essence is allow for flow in the case of extreme blockage...has nothing to do with extending the oil more unless for example you routinely overheat or overrev or use oil of unknown quality"
> 
> Actually Christian, by-pass filter systems are NOT to allow for flow. The by-pass valve in your existing filter does that, allowing unfiltered oil to by-pass the filter when filter flow is restricted. A separate by-pass filter system simply filters oil and returns it to the sump. It increases the life of the oil by filtering the oil better. My pick-up for the by-pass is off the bottom of the pan and returns it to the gallery. By doing so, it removes the worst contamination as well as any moisture. The useful life of oil is determined by contamination, loss of viscosity and additives. We generally change our oil strictly because of contamination, it is still good oil, just dirty. The viscosity won't deteriorate in 500 hours, that is a simple fact. My engine requires 8 liters of oil, if I can double my use the 2 additional $8.00 filters are $20 cheaper than the additional oil, I have to go through the process of buying more oil, changing oil, recycling it (or storing it till I can) and the time that takes. This system makes me "greener" as well.
> I take umbrage at criticism of trying to reduce maintenance as well. I make that attempt with all the systems on my boat. It is not a matter of simply doing less and letting things go, it is a matter of using reason, technology and a little time to reduce the maintenance needed. In many places it is called progress. Improving the wheel is not reinventing it and doing things,"Because that's the way it's always been done" is, to put it mildly, silly. Thank heavens we have people who are "lazy" and want to improve things. Yes, I would like to have my boat maintenance free, it's not likely to happen but every where I can reduce it, I will try. All things being equal, I'd rather be sailing, or scuba diving, or just relaxing!
> ...


btw I wasnt reffering to you as being lazy, or reinventing the wheel

dont know why but people take being quoted or commented right after as being attacked sometimes

I commented right after you because it was in reference to other people, not you who want to not work or maintain their engines

Im the king of slightly improving things I take pride in adjusting a carb or getting a cooler longer running engine etc... especially on my motorcyles or boats or whatever.

reinventing the wheel was reffering to those that never want to do maintenance on their engines for 100k miles or hours on 1 oil change

sorry you thought it was you

man

bummer


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## windnrock (May 27, 2012)

Thanks Christian! No worries. I will keep the forum posted how my experiment progresses, bad as well as good!
Most neglect comes from poor access(to the point of painfulness), dirty conditions (why do they mount oil filters horizontally?) and a lack of understanding, often from conflicting information. A lot of my work was to make everything on my engine reasonably accessible, easy and clean to do and pain free. It took a bit of work but has paid off, so far. 
Without sounding to much like a conspiracy theorist, most manufacturers want to make the initial sale as inexpensive as possible without damaging profits. Consequently the product will not have a lot of improvements or niceties. They also don't upgrade as fast as innovation comes because that would cost too much, unless a competitor does something! Certainly no company will do anything to lower it's sales (oil). Additives are a whole other game! 

Keep thinking critically and beware of the box!


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

the above goes without saying

engine manufacturers make money on parts sales not engine sales

anywhoo

peace to all


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

windnrock said:


> Dual filters do not pick up at the bottom of the sump. A By-Pass system can. Feeling oil is meaningless if you don't value additional information. It allows to to really look at it and yes, if you feel grit you can react. If you don't notice the grit and simply continue, yes, you may trash your engine.
> The rate of oxidation is dependent on the operating temps, quality and type of base oil as well as the additive package used. Oil has been improved incredibly since many of the maintenance schedules were implemented. Most newer engines also run cooler which helps tremendously. Then there is a HUGE amount of mis and disinformation from the oil industry. While they produce oil that is so much more stable, has vastly better heat resistance as well as detergents and other additives to work so much better, they still want you to buy more product. Don't pooh pooh this, they are a very powerful and persistent force.
> Leaving my oil in for two years would be dependent on a number of things, how much I run the engine, how I run the engine, increased contamination despite aggressive filtering, ph (to check for water), a viscosity check and other specs. You actually want to see if viscosity is increasing. I am not quite at the point to jump to two years, but it is a goal. I simply do not wish to dump a bunch of oil, that I paid for, before I am done with it. This is a matter of frugality as well as an environmental one. " Just dump it and don't be so cheap", you may say. I am simply saying, "Why, because that's what has always been done?". There are literally millions of applications where lubricants are used that are not changed for even decades. Many are higher heat uses to boot.
> I would like to know where to get an oil change for $2.00. My last oil (8 liters) and filter ran about $44.50 with tax. That my friend, is three six packs of decent beer.


Modern engines run cooler? Really? Most new cars don't even turn the fans on before 217 - 220. Fresh cooled marine engines usually have a 180 - 190 thermo, like they have for decades.

The change frequency info doesn't usually come from oil companies, it comes from the engine builders.

All wet sump engines pick up their oil from the bottom of the sump - the pickup should be set within 1/4" of the pan bottom.

Staged dual full flow filters will do a far superior job of filtration that adding a bypass filter to a single full flow system - they are called bypass because they only filter a *part* of the oil on its way through the galleries.

I strongly recommend you research this stuff more before you implement some of your plans - marine engines are expensive.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

SloopJonB said:


> Staged dual full flow filters will do a far superior job of filtration that adding a bypass filter to a single full flow system - they are called bypass because they only filter a *part* of the oil on its way through the galleries.
> 
> I strongly recommend you research this stuff more before you implement some of your plans - marine engines are expensive.


How, exactly, will a far coarser full-flow filter do "a far superior job of filtration" than the 1-2 microns most bypass filters are rated at?

Seems to be some misunderstanding out there as to what bypass filtration really is... Steve D'Antonio does his usual excellent job of clarifying, in this article from PASSAGEMAKER. I've cited this article several times previously here, but have never been able to copy it. Good news now is that it's finally viewable on PASSAGEMAKER's website (I've bolded the portions relevant to the ability of a bypass filter to remove much finer impurities than any full-flow filter)



> Keeping Your Oil
> Clean as a Whistle
> 
> Story And Photography By Steve D'Antonio
> ...


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Thank you John for that useful post. The author is clearly knowledgeable AND able to communicate effectively his knowledge to the layman.

The decreased wear is attractive to me, but also is the longer change intervals
At 3 galllons per change (11 quarts to be exact) I could pay back the cost of the filter and analyses AND reep the benefits of heightened surveillance and reduced wear.

You installed an oil bypass filter. Do you analyse often now? Have you now extended your oil change intervals? 

Medsailor


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Very interesting report but I have a problem with one of the basic premises in it.

* Oil filters typically operate in the 40- to 80-micron range*

That would be an extremely poor filter - if you check into it you'll find that good elements operate in the <10 to 20 micron range. Even cheapo mass market filters operate in the 20-40 range.

Adding a bypass system to a good full flow system may indeed filter even smaller particles over time but I question if it's worth the bother on a boat.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

MedSailor said:


> Thank you John for that useful post. The author is clearly knowledgeable AND able to communicate effectively his knowledge to the layman.


Yeah, I've always been very impressed by D'Antonio's stuff. Reminds me of Maine Sail, and is usually illustrated with explanatory photographs. I understand that he's about to publish a book along the lines of Nigel Calder's benchmark on maintenance, should definitely be worth a look...



MedSailor said:


> The decreased wear is attractive to me, but also is the longer change intervals
> At 3 galllons per change (11 quarts to be exact) I could pay back the cost of the filter and analyses AND reep the benefits of heightened surveillance and reduced wear.
> 
> You installed an oil bypass filter. Do you analyse often now? Have you now extended your oil change intervals?
> ...


No, I'm still keeping pretty much keeping to my usual interval, maybe extending it by a bit. But, with only 4.5 quarts per oil change, it's not a big deal, for me... I've always been somewhat 'religious' about changing oil in all my vehicles, and it seems to have served me well, though who knows whether my 'faith' in doing so has had anything to do with my good luck with engines over time...  But the difference now with the bypass system, I'm simply no longer as concerned if I find myself stretching the interval a bit... This summer, for instance, I did a LOT of motoring during my trip up north, running some really long days, and there was a time when I simply wasn't in the mood, or found myself in a spot where it was rather inconvenient to effect the change... So, I simply didn't worry too much if I found myself pushing it a bit...

If I were in your shoes, however, or running a boat like a Nordhavn, I'd definitely go the bypass/oil analysis route... The cost of them are not all that great, I pieced mine together with parts from eBay and elsewhere for probably not much more than $150-175 (using top quality hose from Aeroquipt and press-on fittings, I'd stay away from some of those kits that employ hose clamps, etc), and will probably swap out the large bypass filter I'm using from Amsoil on every third change... Another basic benefit of the bypass setup for me, is that by switching to a remote bypass arrangement, I've eliminated that stupid horizontally-mounted filter on my little Perkins, positioned in a very inconvenient location, and always a bit of a PITA to change without making too much of a mess...

I've not gone the routine oil analysis route, at least yet... What I do use, however, are these very rudimentary test strips. They're certainly not the equivalent of a lab analysis, but would seem to be better than nothing... If they start to indicate any sort of anomaly, then I'd send a sample out for testing, for sure...

Engine Test and Analysis - EngineCheckUp!


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

not to bemoan but one part not in bold talked about testing on different engines too making results less clear

there is no doubt that report is as instructive and knowledgeable as the best out there however there is one thing thats very important that I don´t know if it is in bold or not(dont think so)

this is for big engines(bigger engines)...that like med says need a big ole change of oil, its especially true regarding those engines out in remote areas...my point, where you NEED to prolong an oil change.

now on smaller 2, 3 even 4 cylinder engines the reduced flow might, and Im saying MIGHT here cause damage on startup and or cold days etc

there is a reason a very solid reason why people switch to synthetic on many engines and that is absolutely better flow at startup since compared to dino the flowing capacities and lubricity is much better on the synthetic at startup. also when overheating. ALSO synthetic does indeed cling better to metal to metal contact parts, say cams to valve stems or rockers etc...

if you have a turbo or high rpm engine and say a newer model engine a bypass system and synthetic is indeed a great way to go

HOWEVER you must know what your oil pump is rated at and how if any difference in flow rates are noted after the installation of a bypass system

lets not over-complicate this any bypass system or dual filter system or secondary pickup system all that its doing is screening more contaminants for a given amount of oil its not improving how the oil flows or splashes or lubes your important parts like crank, journals, bearings etc...which is what oil does.

now if you test an analyse and know that your oil will last 3 times as long as regularly then thats fine...however you cant abuse this system...

again is itworth it to you if you simply are a casual sailor, not say an alaskan explorer on a 2 year cruise...

if you want to improve that(oil flow and cooling) you can but it takes a lot of research and $$ for example splashers under the piston skirts at certain angles improve lubricity and keep the pistons cooler and therefore more efficient and attain more rpm(think honda cb750 sohc engine here)

you can bevel and or create holes in cam journals or the cam shaft in certain engines...pocket the heads and combustion area etc..

whether you need that or not is up to you

I know some people beleive it or not(myself included) that would do half oil changes and full oil changes and then *filtered recycled oil changes*

I preffered the last as a better method than a partial or full oil change reason being you are physically seeing the condition of the oil and particles left in screen

I would then dump filtered oil back in engine and top off to correct level with new oil and or sometimes I only needed a nice little top off with stp zddp(remember delo 400 the preffered diesel oil out there recently lowered their zddp contents)

on my motorcyle when racing or dooing a 300mile plus spirited ride, I would filter through a chefs chinois cap stainless cone filter and coffee paper filter on top

yes its a long tedious filter into a container, but I can see colors of metal, debris and fibers and all sorts of materials that you wouldnt simply using a bypass system

I know very few people who routinely open up their filters on diesels, very very few...same concept there.

for example on my last engine rebuild I saw copper colored flakes, some shavings, and fibers

fibers indicates clutch wear
metal shavings indicate piston scuff(mostly)
copper flakes indicated rod wear and or thrust bearing conrod wear(the are bronze coated)

so people the basic jist here is be as proggressive or antiquated regarding engine maintenance as you want to be

the bottom line is engines last however well they are maintained, *doodads or not*.

peace


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

JonEisberg said:


> Another basic benefit of the bypass setup for me, is that by switching to a remote bypass arrangement, I've eliminated that stupid horizontally-mounted filter on my little Perkins, positioned in a very inconvenient location, and always a bit of a PITA to change without making too much of a mess...


That reminds me, is there any reason a filter should be vertical, upside down, or horizontal? My lehman comes with flexable oil lines, but the filter is mounted upside down. Messy....

I'd love to turn it rightside up, but don't know if I'm going to mess something up if I do.

MedSailor


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

To me it really seems to depend on the amount of use the engine gets. On a sailboat, I don't think it makes sense as real extended change interval would mean multiple years, and at least in the north I would be more worried about contaminates from condensation over the winter. Not many people do more than a 100 hours a season, since that is a common change interval it seems to make sense to just change it annually. If you are doing more than that a year, then it starts to make sense to look into extra filtration and longer change intervals. 

For passage maker it really makes sense since he is a power boat. I used to do extended drain intervals and extra filtration on an old VW Jetta I had (1990) and did as long as 50,000 miles between changes, but I was driving abotu 65,000 miles a year. I used high end synthetic oil and got over 400,000 miles out of the motor without it ever being opened up. (same clutch even)


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

MedSailor said:


> That reminds me, is there any reason a filter should be vertical, upside down, or horizontal? My lehman comes with flexable oil lines, but the filter is mounted upside down. Messy....
> 
> I'd love to turn it rightside up, but don't know if I'm going to mess something up if I do.
> 
> MedSailor


Spin on filters work in any orientation - that's why I can't understand some of the manufacturers - my Perky had it at a 45 degree down angle - impossible to remove it without it draining all over everything, even with a plastic bag around it.

Dumb.

Get a remote setup, preferably dual filters and mount it vertically in a very accessible location - you be glad you did forever.


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

If the filter is vertical, as in hanging down, there are three advantages :

1) If the anti-drain valve is faulty, it still won't empty itself, which has benefits to the engine on start up - oil pressure comes up quicker.

2) It is easier to change without a terrible mess.

3) You can pre-fill the new filter before re-installation - see (1).


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## windnrock (May 27, 2012)

SloopJonB said:


> Modern engines run cooler? Really? Most new cars don't even turn the fans on before 217 - 220. Fresh cooled marine engines usually have a 180 - 190 thermo, like they have for decades.
> 
> The change frequency info doesn't usually come from oil companies, it comes from the engine builders.
> 
> ...


Thank you Sloop for your criticism. Yes, I misspoke; perhaps I did not elaborate enough. What I am trying to state is that cold engines are not as big an issue as they once were. With the development of multi viscosity oils in the '60s less wear occurs on startup and warm up. That was a development in the oil industry based on tests and research they did. Engine manufacturers made their own advances in metallurgy and design tolerances, but they still based their changed on existing lubricants, not the other way around. Both industries work closely with each other to their mutual benefit. Reliability and performance increases as do sales of more expensive (justifiably so). There are hundreds of studies, by a plethora of groups as to the useable life of current lubricants. It very much depends on whom you wish to believe. Many groups have undeniable biases. Oil change schedules, as laid out in every owner's manual, are a product, not just of the manufacturer but based on input from the petroleum industry as well. I am maybe way to cynical, but I suspect they "error on the side of caution" more than they need to. I have read numerous EPSG and ASTM papers as well as "The Fuels and Lubricants Handbook". This does not make me an expert by any stretch. It does guide my decision making though. I wish to extend the use of my oil and filters and replace them when they are close to end of life, not before. Finding out how to do that is a process of experimentation, the acquisition of real data and can have its perils. I am OK with that because I don't care for the status quo.
As far as my by-pass filter, yes an oil pickup is located close to the bottom of the pan, often within 6 mm but sometimes as high as 13 mm. Mine is around 8-9 mm. It is not on the very bottom however and the pickup for my by-pass is. That does make a difference. Having a separate filter system also allows me to have a vacuum monitor on the return side of the filters. I want to be able to maximize filter life, without having blockage occur, while also creating some definitive metrics. I am working out a log on my laptop to run with engine hours, RPM, oil temp and jacket temp. Because it runs on an independent pump I can also continue to filter after shutdown, usually for about 5 min. Meanwhile, the conventional filter is doing its thing. 
Yes, this is an experiment, yes I am willing to do it on my engine which pushes my house (so to speak) by it is also, a sail boat and this is not my primary engine. Should it fail, which I am convinced it will not as I have not decreased oil pressure while increasing oil volume, I will either rebuild it or replace it. I completely understand your skepticism, I have seen a lot of opinions, myths and more that a few "obfuscations" out there.

"A life spent making mistakes is not only more honorable, but more useful than a life spent doing nothing."
George Bernard Shaw


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

If you have a separate oil pump from the engine driven one, using it to pressurize the galleys prior to startup will do vastly more than anything else to extend the life of your engine. Something like 90% of all engine wear occurs in the few seconds after startup while oil pressure is building. Pre-oiling can extend the life of an engine literally for decades.

A guy I met in San Rafael called himself an obsolete marine engine specialist. He had experience in the vineyards & orchards in NorCal where they run diesel powered water pumps. These engines run continuously except for oil changes and maintenance. He said he had seen Perkins 107's & 108's that had *40,000 hours* on them and were still working away. That's the equivalent of 1.25 million miles in a typical road vehicle. That's the kind of difference that is obtained by getting rid of cold start wear.

As to the rest, you are certainly correct about how things have improved over the past few decades. When I was a kid, 100K miles was the "normal" life of a car. Now 250K is routine and people who really work at it (like you seem to be doing) can run virtually indefinitely.


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## windnrock (May 27, 2012)

SloopJonB said:


> If you have a separate oil pump from the engine driven one, using it to pressurize the galleys prior to startup will do vastly more than anything else to extend the life of your engine. Something like 90% of all engine wear occurs in the few seconds after startup while oil pressure is building. Pre-oiling can extend the life of an engine literally for decades.
> 
> A guy I met in San Rafael called himself an obsolete marine engine specialist. He had experience in the vineyards & orchards in NorCal where they run diesel powered water pumps. These engines run continuously except for oil changes and maintenance. He said he had seen Perkins 107's & 108's that had *40,000 hours* on them and were still working away. That's the equivalent of 1.25 million miles in a typical road vehicle. That's the kind of difference that is obtained by getting rid of cold start wear.
> 
> As to the rest, you are certainly correct about how things have improved over the past few decades. When I was a kid, 100K miles was the "normal" life of a car. Now 250K is routine and people who really work at it (like you seem to be doing) can run virtually indefinitely.


That is a great idea! I can't believe I didn't even see that. Thank you and I will see what I can do to implement that. I had a 4Runner that I got 340,000 out of and an F250 that did 260,000. Got to get ready to continue south but will cogitate on the pre oil. Thanks again!

"There are no rules. That is how art is born, how breakthroughs happen. Go against the rules or ignore the rules. That is what invention is about."
Helen Frankenthaler


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

How do you setup a second oil pump? I like the idea but i can't picture it. Does the engine driven one allow flow past it so you can put it in series somewhere? 

Med sailor


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Electric. Check the Interweb for "Pre-oilers". You'll have to tap into an oil galley.


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## ianjoub (Aug 3, 2014)

Minnewaska said:


> I can't live with myself changing oil that infrequently. Although, I suspect it's within manufacturer spec (typically 100hrs or 1yr). I just think dirty oil, sitting in a marine environment is bad.
> 
> I do the filter once per year, but change the oil more frequently. There are any number of ways to set yourself up for it to be a quick deed on one of your visits.


I know many fleets (trucking) that rarely, if ever, change the oil in their diesel engines. They will change the filters at certain intervals and send an oil sample to be tested, but often go 100,000 miles plus between oil changes...


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

SloopJonB said:


> If you have a separate oil pump from the engine driven one, using it to pressurize the galleys prior to startup will do vastly more than anything else to extend the life of your engine. Something like 90% of all engine wear occurs in the few seconds after startup while oil pressure is building. Pre-oiling can extend the life of an engine literally for decades.


Sorry that is complete hogwash. A pre-luber will do nothing because a film of oil is on all the parts when you start, plenty of oil to run it for the 4 second it takes to circulate more oil to those parts.

This is something they use as a sales gimmick. Please don't get suckered by marketing.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Then perhaps you can explain why engines that run nearly continuously, only stopping for maintenance, have lifespans several times those that are started and stopped as usual?

A coating of oil is a long way from pressurized oil, even for a few seconds, otherwise we'd still have splash oiling in engines.


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

SloopJonB said:


> Then perhaps you can explain why engines that run nearly continuously, only stopping for maintenance, have lifespans several times those that are started and stopped as usual?
> 
> A coating of oil is a long way from pressurized oil, even for a few seconds, otherwise we'd still have splash oiling in engines.


Are you talking about industrial diesels? because industrial diesels:
Operate at about 800-1400RPM
Have tolerances so wide you could fit your fingers in (not literally) 
have very large, heavy, parts designed to last for a very long time.

Think for a minute what type of breakdowns you hear about. When was the last time you heard someone having an issue with a cam shaft that was worn out?
Your crank on 90% of engines is still splash lubed, with oil passages only for the bearings so they get more oil at high RPM.
Your longest lasting engine is one that turns slow, because lets face it, and engine that turns 3000 RPM for 5,000 hours vs one that turns 1000 RPM for 5000 hours has turned 3 times more then the big engine. Seeing as how most small diesels (under 400HP) make an easy 10-15,000 hours before wear becomes a factor you should be able to figure this out.

No, if you own a pre-luber, you fell for marketing. There is no sound science that says they do anything, or every mack, peterbuilt, and kenworth would ship with one from the factory, and none of them do. I have had my hands inside engines with 20-40,000 hours on the clock, primary issues are seals going far before wear becomes any issue.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

UnionPacific said:


> Sorry that is complete hogwash. A pre-luber will do nothing because a film of oil is on all the parts when you start, plenty of oil to run it for the 4 second it takes to circulate more oil to those parts.
> 
> This is something they use as a sales gimmick. Please don't get suckered by marketing.


How long is the film of oil on the parts? I was talking to a mechanic about my engine and mentioned that the previous owner started it every month to make sure the innards were coated with a film of oil to inhibit rust. My mechanic told me that I'd be better off starting it (if in storage) every 3 months because he was just increasing the number of oilless starts by doing it monthly.

I doubt there's good accessible science on a question like this, but I thought I'd throw it out there...

MedSailor


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

MedSailor said:


> How long is the film of oil on the parts? I was talking to a mechanic about my engine and mentioned that the previous owner started it every month to make sure the innards were coated with a film of oil to inhibit rust. My mechanic told me that I'd be better off starting it (if in storage) every 3 months because he was just increasing the number of oilless starts by doing it monthly.
> 
> I doubt there's good accessible science on a question like this, but I thought I'd throw it out there...
> 
> MedSailor


tough question. I would start it monthly thou. I have seen engines after a few years of sitting, and the oil was gone. I also opened an engine after 8 months of sitting, and the film was there. I start mine every 1-3 months, depending if I have a part off or not. Not an emergency, but a great idea.
When you start it, you should bring it up to temp before shutdown. I use both forward and reverse gears as well, so the gearbox stays lubed. Once up to temp I run wide open in forward and reverse, then idle in forward, then idle for about 3-6 min before shutdown so I dont boil the water.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

MedSailor said:


> How long is the film of oil on the parts? ....


I believe this will depend greatly on which oil is used. I bet straight 30w will sheer slower than 10w30.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

Minnewaska said:


> I believe this will depend greatly on which oil is used. I bet straight 30w will sheer slower than 10w30.


absolutely reason being there are no viscocity modifiers


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

to add to the no oil startups once a month isnt better than once every 3 or 6

your mechanic med is correct up to apoint

you either use your engine daily, always have good flow on startup cold or hot weather(that can mean warming up the oil pan)

or you simply do whatever you want and expect worse results

no lube startups is very common especially in those engines that arent used DAILY

many oil pump manufacturers spec to vaseline the pumps in order to not dry run them initially...also so you dent get a big air pocket inhibiting flow

on some engines 30 secs dry running is enough to scruff up cams, journals etc...on others it can be more or less

basically if you start your engine 1 time a month then let it sit for 30 days you are doing more damage unless you are draining the oil adding it back before starup and pumping the oil pump full of oil again before startup

oil will trickle down in 30 days no matter what type it is

some are better than others

if you are a once a month or every 6 month engine user that would be my recomendation

anywhoo


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## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

Our Myanmar manual actually specifies the procedure to use to preoil the singing via cranking the engine while holding the stop button so the engine won't start prior to actual startup. Here's an excerpt from the manual " RANKING THE ENGINE NOTICE: When performing engine break-in or if the engine has not been used for a long period of time, engine oil will not be distributed to all of the operating parts. Using the engine in this condition will lead to seizure. After a long period of non-use, distribute engine oil to each part by cranking the engine. Perform the following procedure before beginning operation: 1.Open the seacock. 2.Open the fuel ****. 3.Put the remote control shift lever in NEUTRAL. 4.Turn the battery switch to ON (if equipped). Figure 13 (1) (2) 1–GLOW 2–OFF 3–ON 4–START (3) Figure13 (4) 0003622 Note: If the engine has not been operated for a long period of time, check that the key moves smoothly from the START to ON positions. 5.Turn the key to ON (Figure 13,(3)). 34 6.While pushing the STOP button on the control panel, turn the key to the START position (Figure 13,(4)). NOTICE: NEVER hold the key in the START position for longer than 15 seconds or the starter motor will overheat. 7.When the key is in the START position, the engine will begin cranking. Continue cranking for about 5seconds and listen for abnormal noise during"


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

newhaul said:


> Our Myanmar manual actually specifies the procedure to use to preoil the singing via cranking the engine while holding the stop button so the engine won't start prior to actual startup.


That sounds like a great idea. Now nobody get carried away please with this and crank for long enough to fill your exhaust system and flood your engine! It's no fun let me tell you!

MedSailor


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

This is probably a good place for me to mention an inexpensive modification (Just over $100 all up) I did for my Perkins 4.108. My perkins HATED starting in the cold. Below 50degF ambient temperature the cranking interval was extended. Below 40degF it was nearly impossible to start.

The inbuilt "flame thrower" which starts a small fire in the air intake (really, it does) sounded like a great way to burn a boat to the waterline. I started researching alternatives and came across oil pan heaters.

Essentially it's an adhesive pad with an electrical coil in it. When current is applied it heats the oil pan. The stated benefits are that the oil is less viscous which makes cranking and startup easier and faster. Also, the oil is not as cold and sludgy upon startup and begins lubricating more efficiently sooner.

I installed the 20A 12V unit and with about 30mins of warming the Perkins would start up easily on a <40 degree day. I thought it was a simple and effective upgrade.

Here's the unit I installed:
Item#11 Model#250/12 - Proheat Heavy Duty Fluid Reservoir Heater ProHeat products INC. the originator and inventor of fluid reservoir, motor engine flexible pad heaters [250/12] - $49.95 : Proheat Products Inc., engine heater, engine heater systems, 









I used a circuit breaker with a switch, and large-ish wires to the battery to ensure the install was safe, and to allow a way to turn it on and off.
Something like this but in 25A:
Hi-Amp Panel Mount Marine Circuit Breakers









I plan to put a larger one on my Lehman when she gets rebuilt. The Lehman doesn't have glow plugs, so I assume she may also be a reluctant cold-starter.

Medsailor


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## SantaAna12 (Apr 15, 2008)

Engine oil pre-heat. Great.
Engine prelube pump/system?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Engine heaters are pretty common on aircraft motors. Way to go.


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## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

MedSailor said:


> This is probably a good place for me to mention an inexpensive modification (Just over $100 all up) I did for my Perkins 4.108. My perkins HATED starting in the cold. Below 50degF ambient temperature the cranking interval was extended. Below 40degF it was nearly impossible to start.
> 
> The inbuilt "flame thrower" which starts a small fire in the air intake (really, it does) sounded like a great way to burn a boat to the waterline. I started researching alternatives and came across oil pan heaters.
> 
> ...


Switch to a yanmar we got glow plugs just like the big trucks'


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## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

:laugherBy the way we are off topic again or is that still:laugher:laugher


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Minnewaska said:


> Engine heaters are pretty common on aircraft motors. Way to go.


Good to know. I've long since believed that aircraft motor maintenance (at least in the first world) is THE standard by which all engine maintenance should be judged.

Sure i can imagine scenarios where the sudden failure of my boat's engine could cause catastrophe but it takes NO imagination to see how a sudden engine failure on a single engine Cessna or fighter could end poorly.

The oil pan heater was a cheap and easy install. They also make battery, fuel, and block heaters.

Medsailor


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

Minnewaska said:


> Engine heaters are pretty common on aircraft motors. Way to go.


Must only be on the big ones. We use heat carts on the air cooled lycomings.


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

MedSailor said:


> Good to know. I've long since believed that aircraft motor maintenance (at least in the first world) is THE standard by which all engine maintenance should be judged.
> 
> Sure i can imagine scenarios where the sudden failure of my boat's engine could cause catastrophe but it takes NO imagination to see how a sudden engine failure on a single engine Cessna or fighter could end poorly.
> 
> ...


Engine failure on takeoff is the only big deal.
After that we only need it to keep flying on.
Aircraft engine maintenance would break the bank of any sailor if applied to the marine diesel.
Keep in mind the engines are also gasoline powered, and magneto fired. More complex then diesel, and more prone to failure and malfunction.
Really, not much will kill a diesel. An iced carb can bring down a plane. 
Frankly I would not waste my money on a pre-heater, but if you are going to, make it a diesel fired water heater. I would not want to heat the oil, only to have it instantly get cooled by a cold block.
Your money could also be spent on a grid heater for the intake. Cummins uses them, and they do not even use glowplugs in the new units.


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

Simply put the oil on the galley stove. When hot put it back in the engine. Voila!! My Isuzu had glow plugs but not once did I use them. Even after sitting for months it started first turn of the crank in February .Bush pilots burned a pan of oil under a tarp draped over the nose of the plane to warm things up. Worked too well sometimes. Forget what model but some older engines had a glow plug installed in the intake manifold. Had a fuel line to it as well as 12V. Engine inhaled burning fumes. Work really well . I've put them in tired stationary lighting plants. Cheaper than a rebuild.i


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

UnionPacific said:


> Must only be on the big ones. We use heat carts on the air cooled lycomings.


Get yourself a tanis or reiff system and you'll never go back.

When the pan and jugs are heated slowly over night, the entire motor becomes heat soaked. Blowing hot air into the nacelle or cowling will loosen up the oil a bit and warm the outside of the motor, but the cranks, pistons, etc, are still cold. Not ideal.

In fact, a million years ago, I had some line kid warming up with the blast furnace, while I waited. Suddenly I notice smoke and the top of the cowling is blistering. Nothing actually caught fire, but would have in a moment. Those fire breathing dragons can be dangerous.


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

Minnewaska said:


> Get yourself a tanis or reiff system and you'll never go back.
> 
> When the pan and jugs are heated slowly over night, the entire motor becomes heat soaked. Blowing hot air into the nacelle or cowling will loosen up the oil a bit and warm the outside of the motor, but the cranks, pistons, etc, are still cold. Not ideal.
> 
> In fact, a million years ago, I had some line kid warming up with the blast furnace, while I waited. Suddenly I notice smoke and the top of the cowling is blistering. Nothing actually caught fire, but would have in a moment. Those fire breathing dragons can be dangerous.


I use rental aircraft, not even a tail strike vexes me


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

UnionPacific said:


> ...
> Frankly I would not waste my money on a pre-heater, but if you are going to, make it a diesel fired water heater. I would not want to heat the oil, only to have it instantly get cooled by a cold block.
> Your money could also be spent on a grid heater for the intake. Cummins uses them, and they do not even use glowplugs in the new units.


The claim from the oil pan heaters is that since metal is such a good conductor of heat, they heat up the whole engine block. I can confirm that from my usage.

The engine water pre-heater looks attractive though to me for several reasons. How exactly does one circulate engine coolant when the engine's water pump is inactive. I know an auxiliary pump would be required, but I'm having a hard time picturing how to bypass a pump that is internal in the engine...

MedSailor


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

MedSailor said:


> The claim from the oil pan heaters is that since metal is such a good conductor of heat, they heat up the whole engine block. I can confirm that from my usage.
> 
> The engine water pre-heater looks attractive though to me for several reasons. How exactly does one circulate engine coolant when the engine's water pump is inactive. I know an auxiliary pump would be required, but I'm having a hard time picturing how to bypass a pump that is internal in the engine...
> 
> MedSailor


I am guessing here a bit, but the theory may be that as the water warms, it rises or expands, creating a "flow" of sorts. It also may matter where the heating element is located in the block. Every thermostat housing I have ever seen has a small "bypass" hole in it to allow for some coolant to flow even if the thermostat is completely closed.

Paul T


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Med-
I haven't kept up with the oil wars, and note in passing that Mobil1 dates back to the early 80's at least, so synthetics, like all oils, may have changed.

But "How long is the film of oil on the parts?" synthetics originally were engineered for better thin-film characteristics. That is, when you start any engine the camshaft actually slams around in the bearings, making something like a triangular path /\ in the first few revolutions before there is oil pressure to fill the clearance and stop the parts from slamming. 

Conventional oils *might* match that now, but the synthetics are still engineered as the most expensive products and I'd still expect them to have that advantage. Additives cost money, and making specific molecules (to enhance thin-film performance) is simpler when you've got tightly controlled synthetic base stocks.

Synthetics also were engineered for longer hang times. Brush synthetic on the cylinder walls, shut down, come back tomorrow. The walls will still be lubricated long after a conventional motor oil has drained off and left then unlubricated--to wear the rings and piston walls.

And years ago, the first time I sent out for an oil analysis, I was surprised to find the oil was heavy with molybdenum. Moly?? As in one of the finest "dry lubes" for metal on metal wear? Yes, Mobil never mentioned it but Mobil1 was chock full of it. Their conventional oils were not.

Now bearing in mind that aircraft engines, turbocharged engines, diesel engines (and new diesels are often turbocharged) and conventional Detroit pig iron are all different...There are valid questions and issues to be raised. But I suspect that in the past 30-40 years, the Seven Sisters have solved most of those problems.

And in the meantime, of course, pretty much ALL motor oils have had to increase their quality, to meet the ever increasing AFI ratings over the years as well. 

Since all the major oil companies expressly warranty "your engine" against any damage caused by oil failures when you follow their directions...I have some faith that they wouldn't offer the warranty unless the product worked.

Just one man's opinion.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

That's correct, Med. Block heaters will heat soak the entire motor, when left on over night.


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

MedSailor said:


> The claim from the oil pan heaters is that since metal is such a good conductor of heat, they heat up the whole engine block. I can confirm that from my usage.
> 
> The engine water pre-heater looks attractive though to me for several reasons. How exactly does one circulate engine coolant when the engine's water pump is inactive. I know an auxiliary pump would be required, but I'm having a hard time picturing how to bypass a pump that is internal in the engine...
> 
> MedSailor


You can get a standard block heater. It goes where a freezeout plug goes.
They are 120 volts thou.


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

Frost plug heaters are standard fare on most Canadian vehicles (unless you live in Lotus Land) .When you pull into a parking spot ,shut down, plug in and feed the meter. They are great if you have plug in , useless if no. Even the battery has its snug little blanket (also 110)


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