# head odors



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I have just purchased my first sailboat, a dream to sail, everything I could want except for the smell coming from the head. I have tried both deoderizers and tablets but still the odor. What can I do to reduce the smell? It is not overwelming, just enough to notice. Is it the tanks? Maybe the hosing? My boat is a Georgian 23, which is similliar to a Grampian. Thanks in advance for any help that you may offer.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

Uric acid, mixed with sea water, produces a sulphuric gas - offensive to most people. In time most boaters become accustomed to it.

However, we had a particularly strong odor with our last boat. After replacing the hose from toilet to holding tank, the problem was significantly improved. I had learned that the hose material's ability to shield odors diminishes with age and should be replaced after a certain length of time.


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## hamiam (Dec 15, 2000)

*Head Odors*

John: Do yourself a favor and read any articles you can get a hold of by Peggy Hall of Peal Products (now Raritan Engineering, I think). One of said articles can be found at: www.raritaneng.com/pdf_files/holding_tank/L165htw.pdf

Basically there is alot of misinformation out there and while replacing hose and using certain chemicals can help it may not eliminate your problem. You can also google Peggy Hall and Head Odors and find stuff she has written.

Good Luck.

Regards

HAMBO


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Advice to talk to the Headmistress (peggy Hall) is spot on - she is the expert.

If your heads empties directly through a sea cock the problem is relatively easy to cure. The smell is coming from the pipework so you need to renew the hose between head and seacock. There is no requirement that this hose should smell, the problem is caused because the head is not being pumped out sufficiently to clear all the urine/other matter out of the hose section.

if you have a holding tank it is a bit more involved, and will really depend on where the smell is coming from. If it is the hose, then the cure is the same as above! If the smell is coming from the holding tank itself, the problem is due to lack of sufficient ventilation to the holding tank. It is possible that the vent hose is either blocked or not large enough. In either case, insufficient oxygen is getting to the decomposing matter in the tank, and the wrong sort of bacteria are being encouraged. Given enough oxygen, these bacteria go away and are replaced by more pleasantly smelling variant. (I kid you not).


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## yachtvalhalla (Mar 1, 2006)

And it's always helpful to have a bottle of Toilet Duck (or equivalent) to give it a squirt each time. Helps to kill the offensive bacteria. A bit related is the buildup of lime deposits in the hoses and either a squirt of Lime-Away or vinegar helps reduce the accumulation.

Terry


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

Also, make sure that all the hoses are sanitation hoses (smooth interior wall) so nothing accumulates in them. I've also seen opaque hoses recommended as well.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

A couple of things... first wrap a towel wet in HOT water tightly around each hose. When it is cool to the touch, take it off and smell it. If it smells like waste, then the odor is permeating the hose, and the hose needs to be replaced. Practical Sailor and several other sources recommend SeaLand OdorSafe sanitation hose as being one of the best to use, and I'd agree. 

If the towels don't smell, then the problem isn't the hoses. The other really common source of odor in a head is dead and decaying sealife, like plankton, in the seawater used to flush it. The easiest way to prevent this is to do a freshwater flush of the system before you leave the boat for any extended period of time. 

Not all boats are designed to be able to do a freshwater flush easily. On my boat, you can fill the head sink with water and have it drain to the ocean or to the head as a freshwater flush. I will generally put a bit of bleach or vinegar in the water and then flush the toilet if I am leaving the boat for any long duration. Vinegar is relatively inexpensive, mild and helps prevent mineral deposits from forming in the head system.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Get Rid of Boat Odors*

Peggy Hall's book, "Get Rid of Boat Odors" is published by Seaworthy Publications: www.seaworthy.com. I highly recommend it.


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## Artwerke (Nov 25, 2005)

Double check the holding tank vent. On my Irwin 38 the vent hose took a dip after passing through a bulkhead on it's way outside, that dip would fill with liquid untill the preasure built and blew it out, and the preasure buildup in the tank would force gasses past the head pump and stink the place up pretty bad. Rerouted the vent hose and no more nasty head odors. Art.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Also check to make sure the vent opening itself is not clogged.


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## Ronbye (Nov 16, 2005)

Nigel Calder's book "Boatowners Mechanical and Electrical Systems" is an excellent reference for this. In it he talks about giving the head a regular rinsing with ordinary vinegar, and he also talks about efflucent not completley leaving the discharge hose, especially where there are long runs to the holding tank. I highly recommend this book, as it is considered to be one of the books that everybody should have.


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## foxglove (Dec 27, 2002)

*In the future, line the head with plastic bags*

My wife and I (yes, my wife does it too) line the toilet bowl with two plastic kitchen bags prior to using it and dispose of solid waste back at the marina.

For fluid waste, I use an old 2 gallon liquid laundry detergent bottle. It lasts a long weekend.

It won't help with your current problem but after replacing all of the hoses and the head, I don't want to smell anything again, ever.


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## sabrinapm (May 24, 2006)

*exhausting head odours*

I hope somebody can help me in a marketing research. My company have got an offer for marketing a small fan to be retro fitted to existing toilet units on boats and mobile homes, to draw the head odour directly to the outside.
While reading your comments I have noticed the odour probelm does exist but you are not use to install an electric fan to solve it. May I have your comments on this regard? Many thanks for your help
Sabrina


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## DeepFrz (May 9, 2006)

And contrary to advice given above don't use bleach in the holding tank. It kills the aerobic bacteria and will make your problem worse in the long run.

Deep


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Head Odor problems -SOLVED*

Suggest you checkout tankette.com They have a device that works. It was written up in Practical Sailor a couple of years ago. It is also written up in a Boating "how to" book But I cannot remember the name. I have 2 in my boat.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Of course marine heads smell, you know what goes down there? Keep the head door closed and use Frebreze to spray the cabin. Also, cut down on garlic and never serve meatballs in gravy when at sea.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I'm a big fan of doing a properly ventilated holding tank installation, which does more to eliminate head odors than all the chemicals in the world. Also, running the hoses to minimize standing sewage in hoses will help a lot too. Finally, you really shouldn't be using anything but SeaLand Odor-safe hose for the marine head discharge side. It's really expensive, but if you don't want a smelly boat...it is part of the cost of doing it right.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Im going to totaly redo the head system in my boat. Right now it goes from the head to a tank via a long hose with a low spot in the middle. From the tank it goes to a pump that goes either to a deck pumpout or a seacock. The head itself is a ratty old Jabsco. Im wanting to put a tank in the locker behind the head and install a Lavac head, then route the head to a pump to the tank. From the tank either a gravity feed overboard discharge or pump out on deck. Sound like a good idea?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Head odor Inline treatments*

The xxx system installed in the head input line is much different than the EarthSafe product. The xxx is completely adjustable so you can adjust chemical to water mixture and adjust the xxx to where you install it (on the floor or wall ..etc). Earthsafe has 2 pinholes that have the tendacy to plug up at times. The chemical used in the earthsafe system is a detergent and a de-odorizer. while the chemical for the xxx actually lubricates the pump, neutralizes the sulphur smells and retards the calcium build-up in the output hoses created by saltwater and urine. It does not depend on masking the odor, it neutralizes the odor. No other chemical is needed to break down the waste in the holding tank. Plus the company at xxx gives you a complete 100% money back guarentee if you are not happy with it. It doesn't get much better than that !


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

eurpderf said:


> xxx edited to remove spam


Interesting information. It almost reads like an advertisement for xxx. I certainly hope you have no connection with the company.

- CD


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## erps (Aug 2, 2006)

> I will generally put a bit of bleach or vinegar in the water and then flush the toilet if I am leaving the boat for any long duration.


I replaced all the sanitation hose last year. My recollection is that it specifically warned about using bleach with the hose. As well as damaging the hose, it seems that it would kill beneficial bacteria in the holding tank.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I agree make sure the vent screen is not plugged or corroded. Having good air flow in the vent line is important. I hung one of those sanitizer/deoderizers in the bowl (clamps on the rim) on a previous boat. The seawater carried just enough through the hoses to alleviate the odor problem. Just make sure it's well secured so it doesnt end up in the pump.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

CD...sorry to edit your post but eurpderf seems to be Fred Johansen/FredPrue of the same company and patent holder who apparently has chosen to anonymously SPAM this forum by dredging up an old thread and with a post about his overpriced product. I see no reason to give his company free advertising.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I put in a new holding tank last year, much larger because I intend to spend a lot of time on the Great Lakes, a no discharge area. It costs just as much to pay for a pumpout of a five gallon tank as a fifty! My new tank came with an extra vent connection, intended for attaching a small air pump for constant ventilation to encourage growth of the oxygen loving bacteria, since they supposedly break down waste without the stench. So does anyone out there know where I can buy a low volume 12 volt air pump? Has anyone tried it, and does it really work? I have considered putting a 110v aquarium pump on it so I can try it on shore power in the harbor. If it doesn't work, and only forces the smell out continuously, my neighbors will threaten to sink my boat!
Another suggested smell cutter is a charcoal filter in the vent hose, but I am afraid to try it because if it plugs up, things will get worse in a hurry!


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

camaraderie said:


> CD...sorry to edit your post but eurpderf seems to be Fred Johansen/FredPrue of the same company and patent holder who apparently has chosen to anonymously SPAM this forum by dredging up an old thread and with a post about his overpriced product. I see no reason to give his company free advertising.


I guessed he might be, which was why I put what I did in there. I just did not know for sure.

Don't worry about editing the post. I have to do yours all the time... especially when they discuss the merits of sailing a Catalina...

HEHE!

- CD


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

RAGTIMEDON said:


> I put in a new holding tank last year, much larger because I intend to spend a lot of time on the Great Lakes, a no discharge area. It costs just as much to pay for a pumpout of a five gallon tank as a fifty! My new tank came with an extra vent connection, intended for attaching a small air pump for constant ventilation to encourage growth of the oxygen loving bacteria, since they supposedly break down waste without the stench. So does anyone out there know where I can buy a low volume 12 volt air pump? Has anyone tried it, and does it really work? I have considered putting a 110v aquarium pump on it so I can try it on shore power in the harbor. If it doesn't work, and only forces the smell out continuously, my neighbors will threaten to sink my boat!
> Another suggested smell cutter is a charcoal filter in the vent hose, but I am afraid to try it because if it plugs up, things will get worse in a hurry!


I don't know why a fishtank pump would not work. Even a small one.

I spoke with Catalina a while back and they are actually kicking around the idea of doing that too (though I do not know it is with a fishtank pump... that is for Tayana 52's!!!!).

I will tell you what I have done that works VERY well. I cannot take credit for the idea... it was given to me by a guy that owns a Taswell and has been doing this for over a decade. Incidentally, this will NOT work on SS tanks... just plastic. Also, a couple more disclaimers, check with your hose and tank manufactuer first to make sure it is ok. It was on my boat.

I put an inline strainer on the boat at the intake, fairly close to the T-Hull. Initially, I put a plastic strainer in there, but then took it out as it is not necessary. Then, I dropped in CL tabs that you buy at the store for in-tank treatment for your toilet and dropped in a teflon (blue) tab with CL for same.

The teflon seems to have slowed the breakdown of the rubber in the head, which is about the only negative I have found from this system.

This is a very inexpensive, very easy way to fix your boat from head smells. I have no (NO) smells on my boat, at all. I have had this system for about 2 years now and the rubber gaskets (though showing wear now) are still fine and there is NOTHING wrong with hose or tank. The tanks manufacturer said it would never be a problem since they actually make their tanks to ship high molar conentratio CL and the hose manufacturer said it would not be a problem at those concetrations either.

Our head stays very clean and there seems to be no reprocussions and no smell. It is a nice change after dealing with years of that smell.

- CD


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## petegingras (Mar 29, 2007)

> John: Do yourself a favor and read any articles you can get a hold of by Peggy Hall of Peal Products (now Raritan Engineering, I think). One of said articles can be found at:


Full disclosure I have not or am not familiar with the Peal product. Now, I've installed and/or maintained three different holding tank systems. And the one that works best on odor includes routine pumping weekly or bi-monthly. It also includes two other factors, 1) charcoal filter installed, and changed/maintained, in the vent line, and 2) fresh water intake (sea water bad, it too introduces live organisms).


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## westerly33 (Aug 1, 2007)

Sorry CD, I did not understand anything from your explanation, could you please elaborate?
Thank you.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

westerly33 said:


> Sorry CD, I did not understand anything from your explanation, could you please elaborate?
> Thank you.


Put a strainer inline on the raw water intake side of the head. Break up a piece of a CL tab and a piece of a CL with Teflon tab and drop it in the strainer. From that point, everytime you pump the head, you will suck up the Chlorine and Teflon. It cleans your head and you will never have any more smells. The results are almost immediate.

Do NOT use this system:

1) WIthout veryifying with the manufacturer of your hoses and tanks that you can use this product,

2) If you have aluminum tanks.

The Cl could contribute to a faster decay of your rubber/platic fittings on your head. The Cl could/will be damaging to your SS/Aluminum tanks. Some old hoses could be damaged by it as well.

- CD


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## westerly33 (Aug 1, 2007)

Thank you for that.

"CL tab and a piece of a CL with Teflon" - that is what I do not undertand. What is the name of the product and where to get it? 
Why to use two tablets if one of them has Cl and Teflon?

Thank you.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

westerly33 said:


> Thank you for that.
> 
> "CL tab and a piece of a CL with Teflon" - that is what I do not undertand. What is the name of the product and where to get it?
> Why to use two tablets if one of them has Cl and Teflon?
> ...


The first looks just like the Teflon and Cl tabs. They say on the cover: With Teflon! I have found them harder to buy lately, so wonder if they are phasing them out? At any rate, this one will work:










I also break a piece of this one up and drop it in the strainer.










Research your tanks, etc to make sure you will not have any adverse effects with this system.

- CD


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## westerly33 (Aug 1, 2007)

Thank you CD,
I cannot see pictures but have got product names from the links.
So, adding Cl you simply killing any flora in the tank. 

Thanks again.


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## Triquetra (Jul 8, 2005)

I would be very careful about putting chlorine-containing products, such as bleach, in the head, though it will sterilize the area well, since the high ammonia content of the waste in the holding tank will react to release chlorine gas, which is dangerous, particularly in confined spaces, like holds. I inadvertently forgot this basic chemistry once while cleaning up a nasty holding tank spill (actually an overflow  ) and almost gassed myself. This topic was discussed more in another thread "Acetone, bleach, lamp oil. Where/how to stow?"

Is it necessary to encourage microbial breakdown of the holding tank contents, since they just get pumped out? Antimicrobials would help prevent odor from breakdown products, but not odors of the chemicals there originally, like ammonia. Or should the holding tank be handled like a septic tank for a house, and have microbial breakdown of the contents encouraged?


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## mikchil (Jun 9, 2004)

Seems like most boats have collections of odors. A small ozone generator can make a big difference. Not a substitute for eliminating all reasonably fixable leaks and the like but it is pretty effective. Put one in our 38' Catalina and my wife no longer complains.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Not a big fan of Ozone generators on a boat. Ozone can damage a lot of plastics and rubber hoses, like those used in a boat.  Good way to sink a boat if you're not careful. IMHO, it is better to get rid of the causes of the odors, than to install a ozone generator to get rid of the odors.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

westerly33 said:


> Thank you CD,
> I cannot see pictures but have got product names from the links.
> So, adding Cl you simply killing any flora in the tank.
> 
> Thanks again.


In my opinion, I think the point of this is not killing what is in the tank, but what is in the intake line. I think that is the source of most smells on the boat.

We also add a chemical treatment, in addition to the tabs.

My opinion is that it is the intake that is the issue on many boats - not the holding tank itself. You get a nice little flora buildup in there too. I have not done a micro study on this, but it seems logical to me that what happens is that you get a colony of microorganisms living in your intake line. THere is little/no air, so as the die and decay, they are being digested by the same anerobic bacteria that would live in your tank in an anerobic environment. Thus, when you pump (especially if you have not used the head in a while), you get a strong sulfur (ie, stink) that is horrid.

THe inlind Cl tabs prevent that from happening. They release in a relatively low concentration. I guess you could probably put vodka or rubbing alcohol in there with the same benefit - just costs more (smile) among other issues.

This option is not a traditional option. I am still reseacrhing the effects of it, which is why I have not written this up in Mainsheet. I very cautiously suggest it.

HOWEVER, 2 years running... and no issues.

Regarding the Cl gas, you would think that if it was truly doing that in sufficient quantities to produce a toxic gas, when you popped the pumpout, you would get a nose full. That has not been the case. Perhaps because of the ventilation outside you do not get it?? I am not sure. I gues if you had a major leak down below, it could become a problem. Of course, with a major head leak down below you would have to abandon ship anyways!! (smile).


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Thanks for the suggestion. The idea of using a Chlorox toilet treatment tablet seems sound, but it will not work for me at present. The problem is that I currently sail on the Mississippi, and "ol' man river" smells worse than the ocean. Consequently, although I have a thru-hull to take in flush water for my head, I flush instead with a gallon bottle filled with water from the city water supply at the dock. (we carry 4-5 plastic bottles for this use.) I guess I could put a piece of that treatment tablet in each bottle as I fill it, but the automatic feature of the slowly dissolving tablet in the intake line would certainly make it easier! Meanwhile, I shall install the filter housing on the flush water intake line so that when I get to the Great Lakes next year, I can use that suggestion. I will use that intake then, because Lake Michigan doesn't stink! O K you Chicago sailors, don't tell me it does, I used to live near the east shore of that big puddle!


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## NauticalFishwife (Dec 12, 2007)

RagtimeDon... I'm from Columbia MO! But we keep the boat in Annapolis. Just this week a J42 arrived at our dock and the owner is from St Louis! MO does have sailors! I was taught to use vinegar and also flush a bit of mineral oil from time to time. Mineral oil to lubricate the rubber gaskets and to assist the "movement" through the hose to holding tank. Vinegar to break down salt and uric crystals. You can purchase from a camp supply store the poop in the woods kit. Which for some reason I thought would be a good idea to have on the boat in case the head malfunctioned. The bags that came with the kit turned to dust over a years time-thank goodness we didn't need them. I also put one of those clip on toilet cleaners on our head bowl. I don't use the ones with bleach in them. And I agree with above about flushing fresh water through the head before leaving the boat.


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

*Raritan "KO" will solve all your problems*

if you stop using clorox and other harsh chemicals to your holding tank. Yes, vinegar and mineral oil are not harsh chemicals like bleach or ammonia and they are ok to use to lubricate and clean out the pipes. 
I had the opportunity to go to a friends new (to him) Endeavor 32' and at first I could not stand the smell of the cabin without keeping the companionway, hatches and several ports open. Once we finally pumped out and flushed the tank (there was a clog in the air vent) and I treated the tank with "KO" I kept the door to the head open. It almost smelled sweet but was much better than before. 
If you need to clean the bowl use whatever product you must but immediately pump it out and re-dose with the "KO" on an empty tank. You will be amazed at the transformation of odor. 
The best thing you can do is flush your holding tank with fresh water (under pressure) a few times to get rid of as much crap (?) that was coagulated there with all the 'miracle additives' former PO's put down there and pump all that stuff out. Then start a new regimen with "KO". You will be amazed.
I read Peggy Hall's book and she got it right. Anaerobic sulphurous stink is way worse than the sweet smell of the aerobic bacteria doing its job. It helps to have to air vents if you can swing that too.
This thread started a few years ago but it is still valid for those not in the nose.


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## westerly33 (Aug 1, 2007)

Does anybody have any experience with this product? 

"BIOLOGIC™ RVM - An environmentally safe, fast acting blend, used to eliminate odors and liquefy solids in marine and recreational/caravan holding tanks. Each application contains a formulated concentration of natural active ingredients to provide effective long lasting odor elimination for as long as it takes to fill the tank."

I tried it last summer and it improved the situation some how but in winter with the holding tank empty and the boat on the dry, the odor is still very strong. 

I think it is not from the tank but from the rubber parts and hoses.

Last year I replaced joker valve in the heads and put an old one in plastic bag in the car trunk. Next day I was surprised by the nasty stench in the car but forgot about the valve. Until I removed the bag from the car the nasty smell was there.

Now I am planning to replace hoses and the head all-together.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Westerly-

Basically, the hoses on your boat are permeated with the nasty smells... and need to be replaced.


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## 440sailor (Jan 31, 2008)

*Sweet tank*

How about creating a sweet tank? Our Catalina Morgan 440 comes with an aerator for the holding tank. It operates on the same principle as one of those air pumps for an aquarium. By blowing air in with all of the "nastiness," it helps block the organic breakdown that occurs in there, thus reducing the smell. It seems to work rather well, but I do recommend not running it while sailing. The holding tank vent for the 440 is on the port side amidships and when underway with the pump running, I've occasionally caught a whiff of that "sweet" smelliness. Ugh...


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Actually, you've got it a bit backwards... *aeration helps encourage the organic breakdown by the aerobic bacteria*, which will fix the nasty sulphur compounds into the breakdown by products, eliminating the smell from the head.


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## westerly33 (Aug 1, 2007)

That is what "BIOLOGIC™ RVM" for, as they claim.


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## Joesaila (May 19, 2007)

I've narrowed my heads bo down to the vent hose. I'm changing it and will make sure the vent is totally cleaned when I do. The problem is that my vent is held in place by a large chromed nut and is difficult to get a tool on. I imagine using a penetrating oil will help, but has anyone dealt w those nuts and had success?


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## L124C (Oct 4, 2007)

foxglove said:


> My wife and I (yes, my wife does it too) line the toilet bowl with two plastic kitchen bags prior to using it and dispose of solid waste back at the marina. For fluid waste, I use an old 2 gallon liquid laundry detergent bottle. It lasts a long weekend.It won't help with your current problem but after replacing all of the hoses and the head, I don't want to smell anything again, ever.


I'm not sure I understand what you are doing. If I do, I can't believe it! Why wouldn't you simply use a porta potty instead? Seems a lot easier! BTW, how does the 2 gallon bottle work for the wife? Never mind, I guess that would be TMI, even for this thread!:laugher


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## GaryHLucas (Mar 24, 2008)

I have Peggy Hall's book and it is pretty good. I disagree with her on some issues though. She claims the Joker valve is a backflow prevention device and doesn't actually help the pump work. That simply isn't true. EVERY reciprocating pump has two valves, and the joker valve is the discharge valve for the pump. If it leaks by you can't pull a vacuum through the intake valve from the head.

Other than that, her advice is quite good.

On my own boat the smell problem has been huge. A failed hose fitting dumped raw seage into the space between the hull and the liner. When I removed panels in various areas I found black mold growing rampant in many areas. This is proving to be a ***** to deal with!

Gary H. Lucas

Gary H. Lucas


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## GaryHLucas (Mar 24, 2008)

The tank vents are a real problem from what I have seen. I'm installing a new holding tank. The flexible Nauta was smelling way too bad itself.

I'm putting a pair of 1" vents on either side of the tank, plumbed so there are no low spots and one or the other will always be above the water level no matter which way the boat heels. The two hose come together at a Y just below the through hull vent fitting at the deck. So if liquid did get pushed up the hose it could flow back down to the tank in the empty hose. I am hoping that the motion of the boat will thus pump air in and out of the tank and aerate it much better than it typically would be. We'll see next season.

Gary H. Lucas


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