# Roller furling is so over rated :D



## peterchech (Sep 2, 2011)

This spring I swapped out my old POS furler and genoa, and went with hank-ons.

I have no regrets. I have been putting up and taking down my new (to me) hanked-on foresails. It is not really that hard at all. I kind of like it to be honest. And now I can sail in whatever winds I want, because switching out the foresails is now easy. My roller furling genoa was IMPOSSIBLE to take down/put up, even in the slip, if there was any wind to speak of. Getting the luff in and out of that narrow slot in the foil just wouldn't happen when you really needed it to. Now when conditions change I easily swap out the foresails. I have been sailing in these great winds lately only because of this. A "reefed" roller furling genoa is just a parachute tied to your bow, once it is rolled in more than 10-15%...

I tied on some thin line crisscrossing between the lifelines and the toe rail in the forward area of the bow. This acts like a net so the jib can't fall into the water, it's what the racing boats do in all the youtube videos lol and is a hell of a lot cheaper than WM "lifeline netting".

I post this because last year I was worried about going to hank-ons. I thought it would be SUCH a PITA, but the reality is that it is not that bad at all. Even lowered, the jib can just be lied down flat along the rail (inside the netting) and bungeed to the toe rail. 

My point is, all you newbies out there who, like me, have oooold roller furlers and genoas that limit your sailing, switching to hank-on is not nearly as bad as some say.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Don't think anyone ever said hank-ons was bad.. it's just less convenient. In fact with hanked on sails you can always have the exact right sail up (assuming you have it) and there's lots to be said for that!

I like the convenience of the furler - but FWIW we don't reef with it. One other advantage is one less sailbag needing to be stowed below somewhere.


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

i will not place hank ons for my jib---i dont like even the idea of hitting the water as i have to change sails out on the sprit in heavy seas. 
roller furling isnt as "bad" as you think, if you cruise in oceans or wild and wicked seas. even smooth ones become wild and wicked in short order. 
smooth sailing.
i love my roller furling .


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## jsaronson (Dec 13, 2011)

The writer has a Hunter 25, so he won't be doing any blue water cruising! Smaller boat = less need for RF. On my 35 I would not be without it when single handing.


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## misfits (Dec 9, 2011)

Coming from the power boat scene, I can't understand why a cruiser wouldn't want RF. If you were only into racing, I understand that.


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## Chadfunk48 (Jun 8, 2006)

This is a little off Topic, but just a quick question. When in stronger winds and using a furling and flying a %110 (just for arguments sake question is the same for any headsail) is performances affected in bad way when you reef with the furling? In other words how much better is it to change the sail than to just change sail area with the furling. I realize there are a million details that can be factored in, but just in general.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

misfits said:


> Coming from the power boat scene, I can't understand why a cruiser wouldn't want RF. If you were only into racing, I understand that.


In strong wind when you want less sail up, you can't partially furl a jib with a roller furling system (you can with a roller reefing furler) but if you have hanked on sails you can put a smaller sail on.

There are compromises with having a RF.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

Chadfunk48 said:


> This is a little off Topic, but just a quick question. When in stronger winds and using a furling and flying a %110 (just for arguments sake question is the same for any headsail) is performances affected in bad way when you reef with the furling? In other words how much better is it to change the sail than to just change sail area with the furling. I realize there are a million details that can be factored in, but just in general.


Roller furling systems are designed for the sail to be all out or entirely furled. Roller reefing furlers are designed to use reinforced sails so they can be partially furled. You risk damage when partially furling a roller furler.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Chadfunk48 said:


> This is a little off Topic, but just a quick question. When in stronger winds and using a furling and flying a %110 (just for arguments sake question is the same for any headsail) is performances affected in bad way when you reef with the furling? In other words how much better is it to change the sail than to just change sail area with the furling. I realize there are a million details that can be factored in, but just in general.


Performance is compromised when reefing as the draft of the entire sail ends up in the reefed portion more or less. If you are running it isn't much of a problem, but it makes for a lousy shape if you are beating.


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## misfits (Dec 9, 2011)

DRFerron said:


> In strong wind when you want less sail up, you can't partially furl a jib with a roller furling system (you can with a reefing furler) but if you have hanked on sails you can put a smaller sail on.
> 
> There are compromises with having a RF.


This is interesting I had no idea, again former power boater. I just figured if the wind came up & you wanted to reduce your sail area you pulled on the black line to wrap your sail around the gizmo.

So what is the actual difference between a roller & reefer furling system? Is it the sail or the actual construction of the furling unit itself?

Thanks!


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

misfits said:


> So what is the actual difference between a roller & reefer furling system? Is it the sail or the actual construction of the furling unit itself?
> 
> Thanks!


In a reefing system the drum (aka "gizmo") is usually larger and the sail itself is reinforced in critical spots.


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## misfits (Dec 9, 2011)

never mind, saw Post 8...


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

I single hand a 44 ft cutter with roller reefing on the genoa. 

Trust me, at night, when you get a sudden squall, to be able to roll away all or most of the 135 genoa in seconds without leaving the cockpit is great.

The though of having to go to the bow in 25 - 40 knts, at night, propably in the rain and drop a 135 genoa is NOT ATTRACTIVE.


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## misfits (Dec 9, 2011)

So I had to go out to the yard (boats at home) & check, the furler on our boat is a Harken MKIII. Is that a roller or a reefer?


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Nowadays most furlers are reefing capable furlers. We just choose not to use a rolled up sail for the various reasons above. It also fits our usage and sail plan (we don't have a genoa)

Off the wind using a partially furled sail is less of an issue wrt sail shape and efficiency.



misfits said:


> So I had to go out to the yard (boats at home) & check, the furler on our boat is a Harken MKIII. Is that a roller or a reefer?


Definitely a reefing furler!


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## cal30 (Nov 17, 2007)

Not over rated in my book. Much better and safer for our conditons. Not too concerned with the speed factor. No need to go forward for changes and can release the whole deal on the way home in the evening. $0.02. AlohaKa'kou.


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## misfits (Dec 9, 2011)

Faster said:


> Definitely a reefing furler!


Thanks Faster!


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## peterchech (Sep 2, 2011)

When you reef a reefing furler, anything beyond 10-15% becomes a parachute, not a sail. Think about it, the draft of the sail is designed for a sail that is, say a 130%. Now you reduce that to a 90%, the draft remains the same but you have a much smaller sail. Not to mention that that draft is now all in the luff of the sail instead of closer to the middle where it belongs.

I agree that there is real convenience to roller reefing, especially for a genoa. No doubt about it. But when that wind hits, you must keep the sail rolled up instead of being able to switch out the sail. Not to mention, if that roller jams at the wrong moment (they do occasionally jam), if there are high winds you are at the least gonna damage your jib and forestay (I did in my forestay this way last year) if not lose control of the boat.

A good compromise is what is called a Solent stay, basically a removable forestay that goes from just below the furler's forestay on the mast, and more or less parallel to it all the way down to a point in the deck just aft of the furler's forestay. That way you can keep the roller furling genoa for convenience, but when it really starts to blow you can hank on a storm jib or something similar. I didn't do this because my furler sucked anyway, and it would have costed a bit more to install, but it is really a great idea.

ALSO: you can't disregard the *cool factor* of having that jib laying on your deck like the IOR racers do , everybody at the dock will call you a sailing "purist" if you get rid of the furler lol


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Or if the budget allows multiples (my budget certainly doesn't) and the boat to go under them you can do this - no reefing required.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

I spend PLENTY of time in performance mode and the full inconvenience with the 3 plus people it takes to drag in and flake a headsail on a big boat










And it is super fun on windy days when we change head sails for up and down wind legs










BUT there is always My personal boat Seafever on which i never have to leave the cockpit and the jib and main are furled in seconds so i have a nice neutral helm and the boat just GOES 










And i can just lay back and relax


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## ccriders (Jul 8, 2006)

I think some really wrong information is being presented here. First, all of the current systems being offered both reef and furl. Second, most sailmakers can put shaping wedgies in the luff of the jib to improve sail performance when reefing. Most advise you will get decent performance reefing about 20%. So if you choose carefully for the conditions you normally sail in, you can have a jib that can be reefed from a pretty good sized genoa to a working jib. Based on the high winds we normally have here in South Texas, I chose a 120% that reefs succesfully to about 90%. The actual performance will be more a function of the sailmaker than the roller furler/reefer.
All of this assumes that you are not racing.
Now, I am 68 years old, have a prosthetic hip and a ruptured ligamenmt in my right wrist. I normally sail alone. A roller reefer/furler is a god send. I can handle quite a range of wind from the cockpit. I normally reef the main when the wind is 18 knots sustained, which I have to do at the mast. But the difference of reefing the main, which can be done in the draft of the jib when hove to, and changing head sails at the bow of a boat heaving rather dramatically in heavy chop is substantial.
Now if you want to change head sails from a 150 to 135 in light airs, that's no big deal. But changing headsails on a small boat when it gets rough and you need a working sail up, well that's different. And when you are alone, it is big time different. 
So I disagree with the blanket statement that roller furlers are over rated. I just happens to be one more tool at your disposal to use or not use as you see fit.
Personally, I think tiller extenders are over rated. I'd much rather have a tiller pilot.
So there.
John


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

DRFerron said:


> Roller furling systems are designed for the sail to be all out or entirely furled. Roller reefing furlers are designed to use reinforced sails so they can be partially furled. You risk damage when partially furling a roller furler.


Can you tell which is which by looking at them?
If so how?


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Generally, if it has a foil on the headstay it will reef. If it is a continuous line furler, it won't.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

davidpm said:


> Can you tell which is which by looking at them?
> If so how?


Today all generally available furlers are intended for 'reefing' - with the possible exception of zipper luff furlers on one design boats/dinghies with integral halyard setups.

I'd say anything with a proper foil, drum and sliding top swivel is designed to be used as roller reefing too so I'd not worry about that too much.

The furler referenced in the recent 'how do I drop the jib' thread may be one of those not really intended for reefing.

As for furlers being overrated, that's another debate just like full vs fin, and others, where the purists will say 'Bah!' and the rest of us enjoy the convenience. For the vast majority of boats that are not actively raced the jib furler has become 'de riguer'. The engineering is such that original problems with them have pretty much disappeared.

As a personal choice we prefer not to try to beat with a partially rolled sail.. but beyond that we very much enjoy the ease the furler provides for that transition between motoring to sailing. (even though we take the sail down and stow it below between trips - no UV strip on the sail...)


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## PaulinVictoria (Aug 23, 2009)

Don't have a furler, but I did rig a downhaul and some containment lines the other week which means I can drop the sail onto the deck from the cockpit, and keep it there.
Some days I would love the convenience of a decent furler/reefer, but I like the superior pointing ability of a properly sized and shaped headsail. If I were to go furling, I'd probably go for a 130% rather than my current choice of 155%, 115% or 90%. I'd then add an asym kite for light wind days. Can't afford any of that though so it's all irrelevant


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Doesn't anybody read scripture anymore?

_"And on the eighth day God created roller furling, and He saw that it was good." So begins the Book of Jib, a little known book in the Bible, in which God cast His gaze down from the heavens and beheld the labours of the many sailors as they raised and lowered and, with great difficulty, flaked their headsails, always in a grassy area which was supposed to be free of the droppings left by the dogs of Hell but never was found to be so.

"God then took pity on the humble workers of the foredeck and inspired His prophets Harken, Schaefer, Hood, and Profurl." To these He gave insight so that they might develop a device which would lessen the burden. For many years did the men of the sea rejoice at their newfound innovation. But soon they forgot that the miracle of roller furling was a gift from God and instead began to believe it of their own making. They added automatic motors, and applied it to the mainsail as well, which constituted a breech of ancient law, the manual hoisting and lowering of the mainsail being a sacrament. They furled sails hither and yon, inside the mast or the boom, trying to hide the shameful practice from the eyes of God.

God, being then displeased with the arrogance of man, jammed the furling units, leaving the sails exposed to the gales, which tore at them and made the sailors cry and gnash their teeth. The sailors brought down their tattered rags from aloft, and with heads hung low did take them to the sail maker, whose prices soared higher than the stars in the firmament. And with a mighty shout their checking accounts were laid to waste. The sailors did then beseech redemption. "From this day forward we shall flake our mainsails and mizzens about the boom like men!" And God saw that it was good._


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

PaulinVictoria said:


> Don't have a furler, but I did rig a downhaul and some containment lines the other week which means I can drop the sail onto the deck from the cockpit, and keep it there.
> )


If you want to get really fancy, and you have a baby stay, or a second forestay, run the tail of your jib downhaul back to your second stay, thread it through your stormsail or staysail hanks to the head, essentially joining it to the staysail halyard. Now as you raise your staysail, your downhaul pulls your jib down. Two jobs done with one line, from the cockpit.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

GeorgeB said:


> Doesn't anybody read scripture anymore?
> 
> _"And on the eighth day God created roller furling, and He saw that it was good." So begins the Book of Jib, a little known book in the Bible, in which God cast His gaze down from the heavens and beheld the labours of the many sailors as they raised and lowered and, with great difficulty, flaked their headsails, always in a grassy area which was supposed to be free of the droppings left by the dogs of Hell but never was found to be so.
> 
> ...


....I hope Brenda doesn't see this......


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

From my dockwalking, I'd say the decision has been made. At least 80% of the boats have jib furling.


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

The crew and I are not getting any younger so we added a race model roller furler to our race boat. the sail can still be changed to a smaller one if need be and it is installed with Kiwi slides so it is just like having a hank on jib when lowered but it can be roller furled. for cruising we can keep two sails hanked so to speak with the Kiwi slides, one in each sail slot on the foil. it is a continuous line furler so it can not be used as a reefing furler but we would never torture a sail that way. we are also installing a mainsail with Kiwi slides so we can use a stack pack for cruising and remove it for racing. the check stays double as the lazy jack lines to hold up the stack pack when used and as check stays during racing. Remove the roller furler now and there would be a mutiny for sure. they wanted electric winches but now that they have the furler I don't hear about the winches anymore


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## Dog Ship (Sep 23, 2011)

The furler on my boat has two grooves. I can drop the swivelhead down below the feeder and have the use of both grooves.
I have two wire halyards marked green and red so you don't cross them.
This allows me to change out a sail by hoisting the new one on the inside of the old one. Once it's up and set, I tack and drop the old sail down on the inside of the new sail I just hoisted.
I can also fly two headsails wing on wing downwind.


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## misfits (Dec 9, 2011)

There's a lot of real good stuff here on this site! 

Thank you to ya'll, I got my education on the "gizmo".

Love the God piece!! good job


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## Aac (May 24, 2008)

I'm one of those in the process of dumping the furler for hank ons and the main reason is safety from a short handed perspective. I have a 40fter and it seems that I'm forever needing to point in winds over 15 knots; reefing a 135% genoa simply doesnt work. I once failed to make ground to windward in 30 knots; I resorted to the engine. Ever since I have had it in mind to dump the furler. In 25 knots I get there but slowly.

I would add that my sailmaker has made a good flat entry genoa (ie. zero Luff round) with a 9% camber that reefs well; its simply impossible however for a genoa to do the job of a jib. As the wind picks up excessive heeling from the large genoa is ever present regardless of reefing. 

A 105% genoa without the added UV cover and strengthening means that it will be lighter and drooping it to the deck with a down haul seems not too difficult - according to my sailmaker. Getting rid of the furler also means that weight from the 14kg foil is removed from high up.

Not sure how the conversion will play out but a free flying 150% genoa/code-what-ever on a continuous furler is a possibility in light winds. 

No one has come up with a convincing argument yet for not dumping the furler. On the contrary it seems that most people I talk to that are in the sailing game argue agaisnt large do-it-all genoas. To support that you only need to look at the latest crusing boats (ie. Bemeteau 40) which are sporting non-overlapping jibs. It should be noted however that these more modern hulls are probably more easily driven and maybe older fat hulls may indeed need large genoas.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

Aac said:


> No one has come up with a convincing argument yet for not dumping the furler. .


WHAT
* WHAT* 
* WHAT*

Not having to go on the foredeck at night, single handed to douse a 135 genoa in the rain in a 40 knot squall because you can do it in seconds from the cockpit sounds good to me.

I would not fly a 135 genoa on my 44 footer at night single handed without the roller reefing gear.

Sounds pretty convincing to me.

Touch of reality required here.


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## Aac (May 24, 2008)

TQA said
"I would not fly a 135 genoa on my 44 footer at night single handed without the roller reefing gear."

This is exactly why you wouldnt have a 135% genoa in the first place.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

Aac said:


> TQA said
> "I would not fly a 135 genoa on my 44 footer at night single handed without the roller reefing gear."
> 
> This is exactly why you wouldnt have a 135% genoa in the first place.


I don't understand Aac's response.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

peterchech said:


> ... My roller furling genoa was IMPOSSIBLE to take down/put up, even in the slip, if there was any wind to speak of. Getting the luff in and out of that narrow slot in the foil just wouldn't happen when you really needed it to. Now when conditions change I easily swap out the foresails....


Changing a jib off a furler should be much faster and easier than one with hanks...no hanks, what can we say. If you did not find it easier, then you needed to service your headfoil, or get a system that was not a POS. You may be able to get by quick stuffing a jib for a 25' by yourself, but if you drop a 135% to the deck of a 35' boat, you'd better have another helper and 10 minutes to put it away.

Even the local hotshot racers have furling systems...


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## rockDAWG (Sep 6, 2006)

peterchech said:


> Roller furling is so over rated


Roller furling is so over rated  until you face the angry sea, in dark, and all by yourself. You only need to be unlucky once, I am not sure I am willing to take that chance.

Everything has its place and time, I choose my equipment wisely.


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## Aac (May 24, 2008)

Whats there not to understand. 

Benefits:

- the 105% should be good for up to 30 knots. 

- it can be furled but why if dropping it to deck is easy; the luff is captive.

- no need fort a UV cover; my genoas visit the sail make once a year to redo the ripped UV covers from dragging it over the spreaders.

- it can sheet at angles better than 14 degrees - ie. no cap shrouds in the way

- it would allow for a storm jib without the need for extra stays; and dont forget putting a storm jib around a furled sail is probably more difficult than hoisting a proper storm jib.


It's because of the furling crowd I now have something that is dangeruous. I would hate to think what would happen if my engine decided not start in days where I need to point in heavy winds.

Or maybe its the case that most dont sail in winds greater than 20 knots; I do and in fact those are the days I look forward to.


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## Aac (May 24, 2008)

Why is everyone mentioning how difficult it is to drop a 135% genoa when what I am saying is that a 135% genoa is not needed in the first place for boats that are easily driven. In winds less than 10 knots then a free flying sail is possible.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

jsaronson said:


> The writer has a Hunter 25, so he won't be doing any blue water cruising! Smaller boat = less need for RF. On my 35 I would not be without it when single handing.


I feel quite the opposite - a little boat is so much less stable that it's much more difficult to be on the bow swapping sails than on a bigger boat.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Aac said:


> Whats there not to understand.
> 
> - no need fort a UV cover; my genoas visit the sail make once a year to redo the ripped UV covers from dragging it over the spreaders.
> 
> -.


After the first year, why didn't you fix the problem instead of repeatedly fixing the sail?

Regarding your weight loss benefit by losing the foil- much of what you lose by getting rid of the lightweight foil and head bearing is likely regained by the weight of the hanks.


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## Aac (May 24, 2008)

>why didn't you fix the problem instead of repeatedly fixing the sail?

How do you not drag a 135% genoa across the cap shrouds and spreaders when tacking.


>much of what you lose by getting rid of the lightweight foil and 
>head bearing is likely regained by the weight of the hanks. 

My guess is that 16 hanks should weigh less than half a Kg; compare that to 14 Kg for a foil. I once tightened my forstay and I was amazed at the weight of the foil when I lifted it (the furler has an internal turn buckle).

Sailingfool said
>Changing a jib off a furler should be much faster 
>and easier than one with hanks...no hanks

It maybe faster for a racing crew but please explain how dropping a sail with a non-captive luff is easier than one with.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

Aac 
From Hoot Mon


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

I don't have furling on my CS27 and don't intend to install furling, but Aac's arguments make no sense to me.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

Aac said:


> I'm one of those in the process of dumping the furler for hank ons and the main reason is safety from a short handed perspective. I have a 40fter and it seems that I'm forever needing to point in winds over 15 knots; reefing a 135% genoa simply doesnt work. I once failed to make ground to windward in 30 knots; I resorted to the engine. Ever since I have had it in mind to dump the furler. In 25 knots I get there but slowly.
> 
> I would add that my sailmaker has made a good flat entry genoa (ie. zero Luff round) with a 9% camber that reefs well; its simply impossible however for a genoa to do the job of a jib. As the wind picks up excessive heeling from the large genoa is ever present regardless of reefing.
> 
> ...


Using a furler, and flying the right jib are not exclusive.

Even though I am a big fan of the furling system, I never hesitate to change jibs so I fly best size (85%-120%-150%) for the reasons you mention. A big plus of the furler, is that you only need to rig a jib every third or fourth time you go sailing, as the one up is usually the right one for the next time...having the furler gives you 20 minutes more sailing time during those trips, being the time otherwise needed to bring out/layout/hankon/hankoff/stretch/fold/put away a jib.

Note all the boats you mention designed with a small headsail, still pretty much come with a furler standard.

Even if I did not use a furling system, I'd still want a headfoil...hanks are simply a a pain...

Welcome to Sailnet, hopefully you'll find it a good place to learn.


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## CapnBilll (Sep 9, 2006)

Lets see so far I've learned.

1. Don't load too big a sail on a furler.
2. Some people like hanks, some like furlers.
3. Changing a sail on a furler is harder than a hank on, but if you can reef why would you need to?

The sailboat I have right now has hank on.

I am a beginning sailer, but have sailed in both furler and hank on. The hank on takes longer to put the jib up. With the furler I just have to pull on a line, (takes 30 seconds). The one time I went out in 20knot winds, pulling in the reefing line on the furler also took 30 seconds, and greatly reduced wind load, (tacking became harder, but not impossible). The boat slowed down, and reduced heel, but that was the intent.

In short, I like the furler, if they were cheaper, or if one of the purists wants to give me theirs, I'll take it.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Whether you'll ever need a 135, let alone need to change to/from it, kinda depends on how your boat balances, what your sail inventory is, and what you're planning to do (race or cruise) doesn't it?

Offhand I don't know who or what would NEED a 135, but I can see that it might balance some hulls nicely where a 110 is underpowered and a 150, let's face it, that's a light-to-medium air sail for a lot of boats.

Sitting back in the cockpit nice and dry is safer on a rough night, sure, but it is also more "sterile" than going for an exhilarating ride on the bow with your velcro deck shoes on a sunny day.

Oh come on, I can't be the only one who is required to use velcro deck shoes when I'm on the foredeck...<G>


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

If you are switching to a furler there is the cost of the furler itself plus the cost to convert the sails - I have 4.

I think most people keep what they have and like it or learn to. And as posted most boats have furling as standard now.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

hellosailor said:


> Whether you'll ever need a 135, let alone need to change to/from it, kinda depends on how your boat balances, what your sail inventory is, and what you're planning to do (race or cruise) doesn't it?
> 
> Offhand I don't know who or what would NEED a 135, but I can see that it might balance some hulls nicely where a 110 is underpowered and a 150, let's face it, that's a light-to-medium air sail for a lot of boats.
> 
> ...


I'm guessing you haven't spent much time in the Pacific Northwest where the winds are light to very light in the summer months. Many here would think a 135 to be the smallest sail they use normally.


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## Aac (May 24, 2008)

Thanks for the info sailingfool; you must be very experienced to change sails from a foil and consider it easy. I take your point about unhanking the sail.

Oops, my apologies TQA; I didnt realize that you sailed a BOMBBAY EXPLORER 44. Tubs like those really do need a massive amount of sail area in 20 knots just to get moving. 

Basically manufactures like Benetau have realized that overlapping sails are not that hot; otherwise their new 41 (or the new Hanse 41) would have been able to take a 135%. In truth it’s not Beneteau but computational fluid dynamics in the past 10 years or so that have shown that extra overlap adds more drag than lift. There's no if or buts - dems the facts. Note, however that the 104% genoa on the new Beneteau 41 is a large sail due to its large sail area. The real plus is that the sail can be sheeting in at small angles.

mitiempo said
>I don't have furling on my CS27 and don't intend to 
>install furling, but Aac's arguments make no sense to me. 

Are you going to say what you don’t understand or is that your attempt at being derogatory.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

Aac said:


> .....
> Basically manufactures like Benetau have realized that overlapping sails are not that hot; otherwise their new 41 (or the new Hanse 41) would have been able to take a 135%. In truth it's not Beneteau but computational fluid dynamics in the past 10 years or so that have shown that extra overlap adds more drag than lift. There's no if or buts - dems the facts. Note, however that the 104% genoa on the new Beneteau 41 is a large sail due to its large sail area. The real plus is that the sail can be sheeting in at small angles....


True, but the relevant plus is that these designs have most of their sail area in the mainsail, permitting them to perform with small jibs...the change to this design approach has been driven by the handling convenience of a large main/small jib, not by performance...check the headsail sizes on VOR 70s.

If you have a boat designed for a small headsail, then that's the way to go.

If you have a boat designed for genoas, limit her to a small headail, and she'll be a dog.


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## Aac (May 24, 2008)

Sailingfool said:
"If you have a boat designed for a small headsail, then that's the way to go."

Agree

Sailingfool said:
“True, but the relevant plus is that these designs have most of their sail area in the mainsail,...”

I agree partly with this. Yes, the modern designs are easier to handle which is what I am focused on. Why it has taken so long for the manufactures to change is due I think to dogma. The new Benetau 41 however has not got a large main and a small jib. It’s 104% genoa is in fact larger than the main (ie. 42.1 square meters for the 104% jib and 41.7 for the main). What has happened is that they have increased the J measurement by moving the mast towards the center (towards a ketch). This is supposed to hurt pointing ability as the two sails acting as one foil will have a larger jib to get nice and flat – harder to sheet. These new boats however do point well (especially in one design cases such as the X41) and that’s to do I think with the keel, sail material and in-haulers. As basically a cruiser I’m all for the ease of handling part.


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## ccriders (Jul 8, 2006)

Aac,
I can't tell where, what or when you sail from the information provided. You seem to be advocatiing head sails like on new boat designs (being about 100%), but talk of having a 135% on your boat that does not tack, reef or furl very well. My point earlier was that rollers are just another piece of hardware that either works for you or not and for some are necessary to safe and comfortable sailing.
If I were in the Chessapeake (and probably in the Pacific Northwest (but I have no experience there)) I would have a 110/100% roller for the spring and late fall and a 130/135% for June to August when there is no wind, almost. The goal is to reduce time setting up and closing down and to maximize sailing time, and to stay in the cockpit when it gets real choppy and boisterous. So, rollers are almost indespensible for single handers from a safety stand point.
Whatever, it is just plain difficult to carry on a conversation not knowing anything about your sailing situation. You might put some more information in your profile and then get better advice from Sailnet.

John


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## peterchech (Sep 2, 2011)

Aac said:


> In truth it's not Beneteau but computational fluid dynamics in the past 10 years or so that have shown that extra overlap adds more drag than lift.
> mitiempo said
> 
> Are you going to say what you don't understand or is that your attempt at being derogatory.


AAC I don't think anyone was derogatory, your initial post just wasn't as clear as it could have been.

That is a really interesting point, I thought that the switch to bigger mains and fractional rigs was largely because the higher aspect ratio of a taller main was more efficient upwind, and the greater height catches more air. I had no idea that sail handling or slot effect had anything to do with it.

I am reading Northsails book on sail trim, I think I read it there that a larger foresail (a genoa) will point lower than a jib (say a 105) and produce relatively less drive due to its bigger drag producing leach. However the genoa's ability to catch more wind than a jib more than compensates for its disadvantages in lighter winds.

As mentioned before, the VOR 70's will still deploy a genoa for what it's worth...


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## peterchech (Sep 2, 2011)

But they don't use furlers for their jibs


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

peterchech said:


> But they don't use furlers for their jibs


Maybe just makework for the 20 or so young men...


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## peterchech (Sep 2, 2011)

sailingfool said:


> Maybe just makework for the 20 or so young men...


for their 20 or so _real_ men


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## Aac (May 24, 2008)

peterchech said
“I think I read it there that a larger foresail (a genoa) will point lower than a jib (say a 105) and produce relatively less drive due to its bigger drag producing leach. However the genoa's ability to catch more wind than a jib more than compensates for its disadvantages in lighter winds.”

Ah yes a large genoa in light winds is better. And here’s the irony; the modern cruiser do have large head sails but they are non-overlapping. A 140% overlapping genoa on my 40fter is 44m^2; on the new Beneteau 41 cruiser its a non-overlapper at 42.1m^2. The non-overlapping jib is easier to handle and most important it will point. So all you cruisers out there get it out of your heads than overlapping genoas are absolutely necessary – it may be on your boat but not on others.

On my boat my solution is to install a non-overlapping jib and to address the light air with another free flying sail. This relates to furlers because if one has a smallish jib that cannot touch the cap shrouds, cannot touch the spreader tips, probably will never reef even if a furled is installed then why have a furler in the first place. 

So I hope it all makes sense and I hope many of the stick in the mud cruisers have learnt something.


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## Aac (May 24, 2008)

I forgot to mention. When an overlapping genoa is reefed using a furler the sheeting angle increases. The maximum increase occurs when the genoa touches the cap shrouds. In other words the more one reefs a genoa the less the boat points due to sheeting angle (typically 14 to 15 degrees). In high winds the boat may end up pointing better due to less healing but the pointing will still be awful.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

Aac you still don't get it. 

Yes having the right deck sweeping headsail in a foil with a narrow sheeting angle is quicker to windward. AND THAT MATTERS if you are racing 

BUT I AM A LIVEABOARD CRUISER and if my destination requires that I go to windward based on that days wind direction I wait for a better day. Being able to free the sheets and make my destination on a glorious reach is what I do; and so do most other long term cruisers. 

As I said in a previous post what we worry about is being able to reduce sail in a hurry short handed at night. 

BTW My Explorer does go to windward fairly well as it is an old Maurice DuClerq raceboat design with a cruising interior. With the board down I draw 9' 6" . But I have to put the pot plants away and wrap up the stemware. Montserrat to Guadeloupe in 2010 I think was the last time I did that.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Aac said:


> So I hope it all makes sense and I hope many of the stick in the mud cruisers have learnt something.


 Lines like this don't help your case. Especially since your long illustrious sailing history, which gives you the experience to be able to discuss this subject with such assurance and certitude...

.... started in 2008.

Captain Knowitall, ask around your marina what other sailors are doing to their spreaders and shrouds so that they aren't having their UV covers resewn every year.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

I would rather have the simplicity and reliability of hank on sails but the roller reef furler is a great tool when single handing in high winds. My jib is a 100% and works great. The furler is a Hood SeaFurl 3250 from 1982 with an estimated 50,000 miles on it and still works great.

The only thing I don't like is I cannot inspect the forestay wire or the lower norse fitting. Does any one know if I need to take my Hood SeaFurl 3250 compeletely apart to see the Norse fitting? I have the instrictions and it looks like I would need to remove the drum and foils off the forestay to see the fitting.
Regards


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## Aac (May 24, 2008)

TQA
"and if my destination requires that I go to windward 
based on that days wind direction I wait for a 
better day."

Thought so. 

bljones said
"Lines like this don't help your case. Especially since your long illustrious sailing history, which gives you the experience to be able to discuss this subject with such assurance and certitude..."

Hmmm, its seems from your responses that you have learnt something. What can I say - some people are slow learners. Dont feel too bad because there are many many sailors out there that have little idea how their boats work even after decades.

My estimate is that I do about 600 tacks/gybes a year and I fully expect the UV covers to be a little worn.

In retrospect I dont see what you two are so upset about. I admit that my boat has what I think is a handicap which I am hoping to solve; you two it seems wants to argue that not being able to point is an asset - its quite funny.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

Wow.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

What an asshat.

wow, 600 tacks a year? Wowwee, that means you sail, what, 1 or 2 days a week?

Well then you are obviously a learned expert, what with your 2400 tacks in your incredible sailing history and all.

Yeah, I learned something. I'm not the douchiest poster here.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Nor derogatory.

Sails shouldn't need to be repaired every year from dragging over the spreaders- maybe the spreaders should be looked at for sharp edges.

On light air days you can set a free flying genoa - but you won't point well with it.

If you are going out in a heavy air day a 105 on the furler can make sense.

I had to dig a bit to find out that you have a Wauquiez that has a fractional rig. A fractional rig is designed to have a smaller headsail as it is a mainsail driven boat, as opposed to many masthead rigs that are headsail driven. A fractional rigged boat may not need an overlapping headsail, especially on a heavy wind day.


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## misfits (Dec 9, 2011)

DRFerron said:


> Wow.


Wow is right

Is this because I refered to it as a "gizmo" :laugher


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## Aac (May 24, 2008)

"Wow is right"

Glad you are enjoying the show.

bljones you need to get a grip of yourself. Personal attacks on the internet is silly. You have not argued any of my specific point and instead you paint with a broad brush. Your intelligence have been offended in front of a group that you care about and in order not to lose face you are lashing out. Its not a dignified approach. 

I will answer you only if you have something constructive to say like refuting any of the points I have made. 

Now you have made one point that I will aswer:

"wow, 600 tacks a year? Wowwee, that means you sail, what, 1 or 2 days a week?"

Since you have brough it up, can I ask how many you do in a year - just curious.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

Aac said:


> ....
> 
> So I hope it all makes sense and I hope many of the stick in the mud cruisers have learn something.


Actually little of what you say makes much sense, but you do manage to say what you do, in an irritating manner.

I race regularly in a competitive PHRF fleet, on the scratch boat where an extra degree of pointing or not determines whether she earns her 43 rating, so I feel comfortable saying, from a racer's perspective, your comments read like a string of nautical terms randomly assembled.


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## Aac (May 24, 2008)

"Actually little of what you say makes much sense"

Well let us not forget who threw the first stone and your little dig is a little to oppotunistic.

Now for your extra degree in pointing while racing. Need I remind you that it was TQA who admitted to not going to winward. In other words the lack of pointing ability is not a degree or two. You may have had more experience but when last did you take a boat out in heavy air and tried to point with a 135% genoa. Dont skew the argument; is it or is it not important to go to windward in heavy air - this is not rocket science.


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## ccriders (Jul 8, 2006)

Aac said:


> "Actually little of what you say makes much sense"
> 
> is it or is it not important to go to windward in heavy air - this is not rocket science.


Not necessarily. As you get closer to the wind, frequently you hit the chop straight on, causing you to loose boat speed as each wave whacks your bow. Falling off can let you sail over the chop and maintain a more constant speed through the water. If you ride the lifts and headers, it will all probably come out as a wash and you will have bashed around a little less. Why else is it that no one wants to buy a heavily campaigned used race boat?
Now give us a few specific angles you are talking about. The difference between 45 and 35 is significant, but how about 42 and 45? Remember you are talking about when the wind is 20+ knots. So what angle can you really maintain over the race course in those wind and wave conditions?

Today with reefed main and three rolls on the furler we were able beat at about 45 degrees in 17 gusting to 20 knots, and that's two old ladies drinking tea. "Going to windward" is a very relative term for which there is no precise answer. And any angle that is an instantaneous measurement that signifies nothing.

We need Maine Sail here. He could structure a test. An autopiloted roller furler equipped boat matched with a stud and hanked on sails. Then compare GPS tracks to see who made the best course to windward. Sounds like fun doesn't it?

Have fun racing. (Is that possible?)
John


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

> I admit that my boat has what I think is a handicap which I am hoping to solve; -aac


The handicap on your boat may be you so I would solve that first

Listening is a fine art, discussion is a finer art, manners is the finest of all arts

Dave


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## mgiguere (May 22, 2004)

Everything is a compromise...I have been in the position of dousing the 130 on a heaving foredeck in the middle of the night; although there are techniques to minimize the action...(turning downwind and blanketing the jib with the main, or, heaving to, which actually puts the genoa over the deck, etc). On the other hand, there is nothing like going out in 15 to 30 knots or better with the right rig (the number 2 or 3 and one or two reefs in the main) like I did single handed last Saturday on my 37 footer in the Chesapeake Bay. What a blast. I saw many roller-furlers get to the bay, flail and simply turn around and go back home while I gleefully cruised by them doing 7 knots under perfect control. My "good old boat" had a "bone in her teeth" and before I knew it, I tagged Thomas Point Light and turned around and came home picking up a guest mooring under sail....easiest thing to do by yourself, and just relax and take a sails down, have a cocktail, and drive back to the slip. I guess after all these years, I like the whole process of picking the right sail combination and adjusting as necessary. When I first bought the boat in 1984, I sprung for an auto-pilot instead of a roller furler...and have always been glad of that choice. Each to his own, I guess.


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## msmith10 (Feb 28, 2009)

I don't have any inclination to argue the hank-on vs furler issue. I currently have hank-ons. My personal preference would be for a dual slot foil without furler so I could change headsails "inside each other". However, for singlehanding, the problem is the necessity of staying at the forestay to feed the luff into the foil as the new sail is raised. Feeders help but you still need to be forward to pre-feed. Does anybody have a solution for this?


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

I already mentioned this but they were all more interested in arguing 
Reef Rite Down Loader with Kiwi Slides
Like having hanks but also keep the furler. drop the sail and it is hanked on so you don't loose it overboard and can raise a smaller sail on the second groove. I use the #2 and #3 without the furler in the winter when it blows or racing and use the #1 on the furler in the summer when it does not blow


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

Aac said:


> ."Actually little of what you say makes much sense"
> 
> Well let us not forget who threw the first stone and your little dig is a little to oppotunistic
> 
> ....You may have had more experience but when last did you take a boat out in heavy air and tried to point with a 135% genoa. Dont skew the argument; is it or is it not important to go to windward in heavy air - this is not rocket science.


I'm offended, my saying you talk gibberish ought to rank as more than a little dig...maybe it rang true to you.

Personally I've found the 85%, trimmed hard inside the uppers, to be the ticket for upwind in heavy air, set of course on the furling gear.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

misfits said:


> Wow is right
> 
> Is this because I refered to it as a "gizmo" :laugher


Sorry misfits. You don't get the "wow." I was referring to Aac's blatant and continued incivility for no apparent reason that I can discern. Wait, it is apparent: if one asks for clarification (then you are stupid) or disagrees (in which case you are derogatory).


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## Aac (May 24, 2008)

mgiguere said


> On the other hand, there is nothing like going out in 15 to 30 knots or better with the right rig (the number 2 or 3 and one or two reefs in the main) like I did single handed last Saturday on my 37 footer in the Chesapeake Bay. What a blast. I saw many roller-furlers get to the bay, flail and simply turn around and go back home while I gleefully cruised by them doing 7 knots under perfect control.


You have summed up everything I have been trying to say.

ccriders: I am aware that pointing straight into the waves can be counter productive. I race once a week in a non-serious race and boats with jibs always fly past when pointing in high wind. In partilar a Geanneau 409 with a jib on my lee side in 23 knots of wind pushed me higher with me going from about 6.4 knots to 4.5 knots. After it passed and we stabilized my guess is that it was pointing around 5 degrees higher in those conditions.

msmith10 said


> However, for singlehanding, the problem is the necessity of staying at the forestay to feed the luff into the foil as the new sail is raised. Feeders help but you still need to be forward to pre-feed. Does anybody have a solution for this?


Again exactly my thoughts, Sailingfool is the only one that I have heard that prefers a foil in this situation.

sailingfool said


> Personally I've found the 85%, trimmed hard inside the uppers, to be the ticket for upwind in heavy air, set of course on the furling gear.


And yet again saying exactly what I have been saying. A 135% genoa cannot be reefed to have a shetting angle of 8 degrees (which I'm pretty sure corresponds to your "85%, trimmed hard inside the uppers"). On my boat the best sheeting angle is around 14 degrees at the cap shrounds and I think you will find that it almost always between 12 and 15 degrees on other boats. In facy many cruising boats simply do not come initially equipped with the tracks that support a 104% jib even though the hull and keel would cope.

DRFerron said


> I was referring to Aac's blatant and continued incivility for no apparent reason


If you are going to set yourself up as someone that is above reproach then at least do so in substance. It wasnt me who started a pissing match about who has more experience; concentrate on the high school geometry that describes a rig and then maybe you too will be able to contribute something other than such tripe.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Aac said:


> It wasnt me who started a pissing match


Yeah, it was.

And you still haven't figured out that it's not your advice as much as your attitude that is in question here.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

I don't think anybody has said that a roller furling jib can ever be sized for all conditions. But does that really make having a roller furler any worse than having to change hank on jibs?

If you are sailing in 20+ knot winds you need a smaller jib - furler or not. If it is blowing before you leave the dock put the proper jib on before you leave - whether it is a furling sail or a hanked on sail.

The only real issue is changing a jib on a furler vs a hank on sail in variable conditions. In most cases that will require a trip to the foredeck and the removal of a sail off the stay or furler.

The ReefRite twin foil posted by overbored Head Sail Furler Details seems to solve that problem better than a conventional furler or hank on jibs. To my knowledge it is the only way you can easily lower one sail and raise another on the same stay and have both sails always remain captive. Looks like a great idea.

As overbored said, 2 sails on the furler for racing and one for cruising with furling capability.


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## Aac (May 24, 2008)

bljones said


> And you still haven't figured out that it's not your advice as much as your attitude that is in question here.


Ok, I reread some of my previous posts and they were somewhat terse. I offended TBA by doing the unthinkable and criticised his boat but that was only after he had a go at me with his digging a hole cartoon. Then bljones started name calling no doubt sticking up for TBA and then came Sailingfool joining in the fray.

So I apologize for being such a school boy and especially the comment about TBA's boat - take it for what it is.

mitiempo: I looked at Reefrite and I noticed the kiwi slides stack about a meter high. They also state that the friction in the slides is about half that of a bolt rope; thats still seems a lot.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

I don't have any experience with the ReefRite, I just looked at the website after seeing the link.

Maybe overbored will elaborate on its use, he seems to like his.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Aac said:


> mitiempo: I looked at Reefrite and I noticed the kiwi slides stack about a meter high. They also state that the friction in the slides is about half that of a bolt rope; thats still seems a lot.


I found their statement that the Kiwi slides have half the friction luff tape - I do not think luff tape should have much friction itself really. They do not mention bolt rope.

Where does it say they stack a meter high? They do say the loader is about waist high.


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## Patient (Jan 7, 2009)

So preetttyy.


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## SimonV (Jul 6, 2006)

That is preeeeettty I want one now. But I think It is more of an MPS/cruising shute.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

msmith10 said:


> I...However, for singlehanding, the problem is the necessity of staying at the forestay to feed the luff into the foil as the new sail is raised. Feeders help but you still need to be forward to pre-feed. Does anybody have a solution for this?


You cannot put a new jib into use without going forward at least once...tape or hanks. If you have the luff pulled forward below the feeder, I find a jib will usually hoist fully via the feeder...occasionally not. You always save the ten minutes or so involved in messing with hanks.


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## ccriders (Jul 8, 2006)

msmith10 said:


> However, for singlehanding, the problem is the necessity of staying at the forestay to feed the luff into the foil as the new sail is raised. Feeders help but you still need to be forward to pre-feed. Does anybody have a solution for this?


It seems that if you don't run your jib halyard aft to the cockpit, but have a little extra tail on it so you can take it forward you can hoist and feed at the bow and then do the final set at the mast. Also, if you have a double groove foil you can do this in the lee of an active jib.

How often does the situation change so dramatically for you that you need to change to a headsail that is more than 20% less than what is up? That is about how often you would need to engage in this one armed paperhanger drill.

John


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

And then there are those who sail Fisher's Island Sound;
Let it out
Rails in the water, roll some in
We are becalmed, get the fly swatter.
Current pushing us sideways towards N. Dumpling, start the engine.
Awwwww Wind let it out.
OMG roll it in before we broach
Boring, roll it out...
Thunder storm?
Nope just passed north of us, let's sail!

And that is just the first 15 minutes.


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## peterchech (Sep 2, 2011)

mgiguere said:


> everything is a compromise...i have been in the position of dousing the 130 on a heaving foredeck in the middle of the night; although there are techniques to minimize the action...(turning downwind and blanketing the jib with the main, or, heaving to, which actually puts the genoa over the deck, etc). On the other hand, there is nothing like going out in 15 to 30 knots or better with the right rig (the number 2 or 3 and one or two reefs in the main) like i did single handed last saturday on my 37 footer in the chesapeake bay. What a blast. I saw many roller-furlers get to the bay, flail and simply turn around and go back home while i gleefully cruised by them doing 7 knots under perfect control. My "good old boat" had a "bone in her teeth" and before i knew it, i tagged thomas point light and turned around and came home picking up a guest mooring under sail....easiest thing to do by yourself, and just relax and take a sails down, have a cocktail, and drive back to the slip. I guess after all these years, i like the whole process of picking the right sail combination and adjusting as necessary. When i first bought the boat in 1984, i sprung for an auto-pilot instead of a roller furler...and have always been glad of that choice. Each to his own, i guess.


nice


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## misfits (Dec 9, 2011)

DRFerron said:


> Sorry misfits. You don't get the "wow."


I was just trying to lighten stuff up so that the gnashing of teeth didn't go to the next level.....


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

misfits said:


> I was just trying to lighten stuff up so that the gnashing of teeth didn't go to the next level.....


If we let them gnash, pretty soon they won't have teeth. Problem solved.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

How about a roller reefer jib with a removable (or maybe fixed) inner forestay for the storm jib. Best of both worlds. That is my plan.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

casey1999 said:


> How about a roller reefer jib with a removable (or maybe fixed) inner forestay for the storm jib. Best of both worlds. That is my plan.


My plan is similar - normal forestay with a Solent just inside and parallel that is removable for the storm jib or a smaller jib. As long as it is close to the forestay top and bottom runners aren't needed. I will not have furling though. There will be a downhaul on the forestay to allow lowering from aft.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

mitiempo said:


> My plan is similar - normal forestay with a Solent just inside and parallel that is removable for the storm jib or a smaller jib. As long as it is close to the forestay top and bottom runners aren't needed. I will not have furling though. There will be a downhaul on the forestay to allow lowering from aft.


Been looking into this. I understand the runners (and how they could interfere with boom/main sail), but what are check stays, understand they could be used in place of runners (and without the interference). Could checks be used in all situations, or only when you can get the aft enough to get proper angle?


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

This thread has been pretty entertaining… I especially liked the comment about the IOR days. How many of us who actually lived through that racing era really miss lugging hundred pound sails to the bow, bald-headed sail changes and getting swept by waves while trying to flake? Fortunately, I’m secure enough in my masculinity to admit in public that I actually like my (Schaefer) roller furler. I have not encountered any of the problems mentioned in previous posts. I can (and do!) make single handed sail changes – I actually have to slow down the halyard during the drop so the sail lands completely on the forepeak and I use pre-feeders and have had no problems in hoisting. In a pinch, I have been known to roll up a genoa to “hanky” size during squalls, where frankly during those times, I’m not really concerned about peak VMG.

Full disclosure: I have four headsails that are in the regular rotation and all of them are in sausage bags (how many of you “hankers” can make the same claim?) I am constrained by both my one design class and PHRF rules to a max 130% genoa. Although the tacking angle on this sail is a little wider than say my blade or lapper, it more than makes up for it in VMG on my mast-head rigged boat. In preparation for the SSS Long Pac, I’ve been experimenting with double headsails which is easy, given my double slot foil. 

How many sails do you “hankers” carry on board? When Mrs. B and I are doing weekend or our two week summer cruises, we pack two, plus one spinnaker which takes up a fair amount of real estate in the aft stateroom. Not a problem on our “short” trips but we are planning on cruising Mexico in the near future and that space will become precious. How do you “hankers” pack all your sail inventory in addition to all the important cruising stuff?


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

casey1999 said:


> Been looking into this. I understand the runners (and how they could interfere with boom/main sail), but what are check stays, understand they could be used in place of runners (and without the interference). Could checks be used in all situations, or only when you can get the aft enough to get proper angle?


Check stays are used to "check" or limit mast bend when you have a very powerful backstay adjustment, such as hydraulics. Whether masthead or frac, the power available here can bend the mast significantly (think of squeezing a toothpick top and bottom between you thumb and forefinger) - often more than you want for sail shape. Coincidentally this action actually brings the masthead closer to the deck and your shroud tension slacks off.

Check stays limit that bend and allow the force to be translated more into headstay tension and minimize the 'shortening' of the rig. On many triple spreader rigs the checkstays are multi-part each adjustable to precisely shape the mast bend as they are applied.

btw they interfere with the main nearly as much as runners and need to be handled during tacks and gybes in much the same way. Off the wind we used to stow them forward unless it was really nukin'...

In the pic below I'd argue that the stay labeled 'running backstay' is really another checkstay in this case.. I think a real runner goes to the headstay height.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

casey1999 said:


> Been looking into this. I understand the runners (and how they could interfere with boom/main sail), but what are check stays, understand they could be used in place of runners (and without the interference). Could checks be used in all situations, or only when you can get the aft enough to get proper angle?


I don't know much about check stays but they would have the same issues as runners I think. Only the lee runner is used and when tacking you switch to the other side.

But as I said, with a Solent that is close to the forestay top and bottom runners aren't required.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

casey1999 said:


> How about a roller reefer jib with a removable (or maybe fixed) inner forestay for the storm jib. Best of both worlds. That is my plan.


That's basically what I use offshore, as do most of my boats. . Great arrangement. 
My jib furler was the best 100 bucks I ever spent . Not having to go to the foredeck as often is a great safety advantage. Giving this advantage up is just plain bad seamanship.
I set up a runner on long passages. It is not in the way , but greatly stiffens the mast.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

mitiempo said:


> I'm guessing you haven't spent much time in the Pacific Northwest where the winds are light to very light in the summer months. Many here would think a 135 to be the smallest sail they use normally.


We run a 150 most of the season and even furled we still out point lots of boats except some of the hard core racing boats. The new Harken furlers leave less belly in the sail than our previous furlers did and she holds a decent sailable shape that does not really limit out pointing ability. In 40+ years I've just learned not to put myself on lee shores..... I spent 20 years, too long, sailing with hanks before we switched to furlers and would not go back. When the wind pipes up I just change head sails, same as with hanks, very easy.. In the fall I often leave the 135 on as the winds are often stronger but also keep a 100% on board as well..

Those who experience the "problems' with furlers are probably not using them correctly or they need to be fixed. Our 150% is now about 8 years old and she's never once been repaired from spreader or stay chafe. I try to sail about 5-6 days per week from mid to late April to mid to late Nov. Never counted how many tacks on my head sail but our primary is a 150% on a furler, double spreader rig that has never been repaired, in 8 years, (5 under me and 3 under the previous owner) and that is pretty normal for me...


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

mitiempo said:


> I don't know much about check stays but they would have the same issues as runners I think. Only the lee runner is used and when tacking you switch to the other side.
> 
> But as I said, with a Solent that is close to the forestay top and bottom runners aren't required.


I think you ment to say only the windward runner is used. the leeward one is loose to keep it off the mainsail


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

overbored said:


> I think you ment to say only the windward runner is used. the leeward one is loose to keep it off the mainsail


You're right, windward of course. Thanks.

Tell us more about your furler please.


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

I change from a double groove tuff luff to a Facnor RC 180 racing continuous line furler with a double groove foil. Where I sail the winds are light most days. so I leave the 155 genoa on most of the time. the furler makes the boat a lot easier to handle when shorthanded. it makes shorthanded spinnaker sets much less work. when we race with a full crew we will use the furler if the wind is light but if it builds and we make sail change we will drop the genoa and raise a smaller sail without the upper swivel which then allows the use of both grooves for sail changes. the point of the furler and the kiwi sildes on the main was to be able to rig the boat with a shorthanded crew and be sailing in only minutes. I do a lot of after work sailing for an hour or two and want the rigging to go easy with less work. from my slip I can be rigged and sailing in the ocean in about 15 minutes


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## Sanduskysailor (Aug 1, 2008)

I think hanks are great for a small boat but for anything over approaching 30 feet or over a good roller furler system works great. My current boat has a race set up with a tuff luff. It is great when we are racing and have crew. For deliveries and cruising, not so much. My last 2 boats had Harken roller furling. Switching out headsails was easy. I had Harken's special small snap shackles on the upper and lower swivels. I also had bow netting and a shock cord arrangement to secure the sail I took down. My inventory included a cruising 155% with a foam luff that reefed down to a 130% relatively efficiently. Remember to adjust your jib leads when reefing down. If it was going to be blowing I put my 155% working sail on. No biggie.

I plan on adding a Harken system this year and ditching the tuff luff. When racing I will just drop the swivel and use it as a double groove racing foil. It sure is a lot faster to change headsails on the fly than doing a drop, attach, and hoist with hanks. My racing inventory includes 4 headsails for my 29 footer.


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## mhekul (Jul 15, 2012)

I'd like to know that too. The difference between roller furling/reefing and roller furling only systems. I'm assuming from what I've read here and other places that it's a little bit of both. The sails and the furling systems. The sails may be constructed a little differently and with the furling only system the bottom swivel and the top swivel probably won't have the same number of turns because of twist in the cable fastened to the luff of the furling sail, causing problems when the sail is loaded with the wind. The furling/reefing system has a solid foil, (between the swivels), that the sail attaches to eliminating this problem. That's about all I've been able to figure.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Harken: Top 25 Furling Q & A

Apparently, if you have an extrusion over the headstay, you can reef the foresail. Without the extrusion, Harken says furl only. Other than that there's apparently no difference these days. Without the extrusion (and feeding the luff into the slot on it) you won't be able to put the same tensioning and shape control into the foresail and I'm guessing that's why they don't call it reefing unless there's an extrusion.


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

Chadfunk48 said:


> This is a little off Topic, but just a quick question. When in stronger winds and using a furling and flying a %110 (just for arguments sake question is the same for any headsail) is performances affected in bad way when you reef with the furling? In other words how much better is it to change the sail than to just change sail area with the furling. I realize there are a million details that can be factored in, but just in general.


One has to remember that sails are essentially 3 dimensional quasi-spherical shapes and with most of the curvature of design shape from the luff to near midcord. If you roll-up all that critical 'curvature' and leave essentially nothing but flat shapes exposed what do you have ... something that approximates a flat sheet of plywood or something that approximates a sail?
Even with roller _reefing_ (and special cut luffs and/or foam luffs), the typical best that you can roll up and still have a modicum of sail shape is approx. a 30+% reduction in sail area.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Rich, forgetting sail shape itself, I think there's always a tradeoff, a performance loss, with roller furling simply because the portion of the sail that is furled now forms a lumpy cylinder on the leading edge of the sail. That's got to cause some detached airflow and spoil the aerodynamics of the sail to some extent.

There may be other compensations (like keeping crew safely aft and reducing inventory) but I expect that if sticking a lumpy cylinder at the leading edge of an airfoil was a good idea, we'd see carpet rolls in front of commercial airliner wings as well. 

Would you prefer Berber, or a nice shag? (G)


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

I find that on the days like Saturday when its gusting over 20 knots i have SO much extra power the loss in aerodynamics is not that big a deal




























Roll them up to balance the helm and sit back and relax and the boat stills goes 6+ knots and hit 7.9 REACHING


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## CapnBilll (Sep 9, 2006)

This thread went a little awry in the middle. But at the risk of reigniting the fire.


I have hank on's, they work well for me, and I like to be able to swap out a sail, (or more likely pick the sail I want to use that day). As it is very unlikely I'm going forward to change it once I'm out.

I've sailed on boats with roller furling, and when I had to reef, the boat didn't sail very well, (it might have been me).

If I had a big boat I would get a roller furling, right now the cost doesn't justify the convenience. And I get a little personal satisfaction from going forward and hanking on the sail. (seems more nautical somehow).


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Bill-
"I have hank on's, they work well for me, and I like to be able to swap out a sail,"
I don't disagree with you, but note that any roller furling worth its salt has two slots in the extrusion, so you still can go forward to change headsails. In theory an extrusion should cost the same thing whether it has one slot or two in it although I'm sure there are some performance advocates who will say two slots means you've always got one favored side.


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## peterchech (Sep 2, 2011)

I guess bill means that he can switch out the sails before leaving the dock. Once I get to the marina, I decide which headsail to put on and I hank it on, leaving it on the deck. My father's boat has roller furling (and only 1 jib halyard). Unfurling then dropping the genoa while at the harbor when the wind is up and coming from aft is challenging and a royal pita. Doing it at sea is a pita as well, although the main can shelter the jib for the drop you still have that heaving pita foredeck to deal with.

That said, the bigger the boat the more rare these headsail changes will be. I have noticed in my very light displacement boat that 0-10 knots is genoa, 10-20 is working jib, and anything over that is 50% jib. Since the wind usually hovers between 5-15 knots, I use a different headsail almost every time I go out. This is different in my father's boat, a 12,000 pounder, which can hang on to the genoa comfortably until about 15 knots. So he is in genoa territory at least 80% of the time we go out sailing. Plus the boat has a bigger headsail, much more work to put it up and take it down, so the furler makes alot of sense for him.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

peterchech said:


> I guess bill means that he can switch out the sails before leaving the dock. Once I get to the marina, I decide which headsail to put on and I hank it on, leaving it on the deck. My father's boat has roller furling (and only 1 jib halyard). Unfurling then dropping the genoa while at the harbor when the wind is up and coming from aft is challenging and a royal pita. Doing it at sea is a pita as well, although the main can shelter the jib for the drop you still have that heaving pita foredeck to deal with.
> 
> That said, the bigger the boat the more rare these headsail changes will be. I have noticed in my very light displacement boat that 0-10 knots is genoa, 10-20 is working jib, and anything over that is 50% jib. Since the wind usually hovers between 5-15 knots, I use a different headsail almost every time I go out. This is different in my father's boat, a 12,000 pounder, which can hang on to the genoa comfortably until about 15 knots. So he is in genoa territory at least 80% of the time we go out sailing. Plus the boat has a bigger headsail, much more work to put it up and take it down, so the furler makes alot of sense for him.


Typical sail for me single handed on a 44 foot cutter. Leave Wallilabou in the lee of St Vincent with full main, staysail and 135 genoa in fluky 8 to 12 knots. Get to the North end of St Vincent roll away genoa and put 1st reef in main in preperation for the acceleration zone. 20 to 30 knots and a confused 2.5 m swell. After 5 miles the swell moderates a little but still lumpy and 2 m the wind drops to 18 to 22 and squares up a little. Leave the reef in and unroll 50 % of the genoa if we start to hit 9 knts too often I will roll it away.

By the time I am nearing St Lucia I usually have most of the genoa out.

As I reach St Lucia and start to encounter the lee I will unroll all of the genoa and eventually shake out the reef. But I have to watch out for the white horses that warn of the sudden squalls that can roll down from the Pitons and tell me to roll the genoa away again.

I have done this trip from Wallilabou up to Marigot Bay quite a few times and reckon on at least 6 changes to the size of the genoa and maybe as many as 12.

And that is why I and most other cruisers out here have roller reefing.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

2010 ARLI race we did 15 sail changes on the first night as it went from 0 to 20 to 0 to 20 to 0 to 20 

Its was great fun


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

My first roller furler was the best $80 I ever spent on rigging. It drastically enhanced safety on board ,being able to reef and furl the headsail, without leaving the cockpit. I put a genny on it, and have no reason to change it or take it down for decades. Sailing without one is just plain bad seamanship. Going from hank on headsails to a roller furler was like going from the stone age to the space age. I have had no problem with it in 30 years, and 6 Pacific crossings. I'd never cruise without one.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

For those wondering about solent stays. They are a PITA! My jeanneau has one, biggest sail that one can use at times is a 130-135 or so. My 140 does not like to tack around it to well, do not even ask about the 155, without someone up front literally moving the sail around. 

At the end of the day....what is jib roller furling?!?!?!? not sue, never used itbut once or twice on other peoples boats. I would NOT go back to hank ons vs my tough luff. I have thought about getting an RF with a removable drum, as i spend more time racing with a crew than SH/DH with spouse etc. Even the few times I have raced in a DH mode, it is with folks in conditions that one can deal with being up front in Puget SOund. 

IF Aac, has a Waquiez, and IIRC a 40s, and he is losing to a Jeanneau 409, he has some issues other than the boat. The 40s I raced on a few days last spring was a screamer, had no issues keeping up with J109's. Granted that owner had two mains he could choose from three or four HS's, sym and asym spins..........furler was removed while racing, on with a dacron of some sort for cruising, and the pentex main was replaced with a dacron main too. 

I would also agree, an 85% fortriangle jib is handy when the 110 is too big with a reef or two, better than going ALL the way down to a storm jib.

marty


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## Andrew Troup (Jul 16, 2012)

I think some concepts are getting combined for the purposes of discussion which are not inextricably linked.

Boltropes/luff tapes are an example. They're a separate issue, or at least separable, from roller reefing. By which I mean: Roller sails can have slides or slugs; non roller sails can have headfoils and boltropes.

I find it hard to comprehend that posters are claiming that boltrope sails into headfoils are easier to change than sails hanked to a stay.
This is true, I would venture, only at the dock, in a calm, or on a boat with multiple skilled practitioners available for each and every change. 
I can only assume that this opinion is formed or informed by people who have no experience of trying to change such sails alone, offshore, in bad conditions.

There are ways of making it safe to change a hanked sail in such circumstances: heaving to (or running off and blanketing), downhaul lines, ties cowhitched to the lifelines, taking the halyard forward with you, etc etc. It's not elegant or racy, and it's probably hard to imagine for people who haven't been on boats where these routines are well rehearsed, but it's eminently doable and people are doing it every day. 
In contrast, I reckon it really takes three people to change a big headsail with a boltrope on a 40' sailing yacht safely, in a breeze at sea.

The crux of the matter is that the entire leading edge of a hanked sail remains captive until after the sail is bagged.

A boltrope sail, once the luff escapes, is just not going to be possible to keep on the foredeck in big seas on your own*, even hove to, even blanketing. At some point, on some occasions, some part of it is going to blow overboard -- and then you're in trouble. After all, trawl nets are measured in inches per thread, not threads per inch.

OTOH, if the entire body of a hanked sail goes overboard, it's still attached by one long edge to the stay, so it can't fill like a drogue, and only a sausage tail can go over the side. Snug up and cleat off the sheet, slacken the halyard, go to the bow with the snapshackle end, and clip it to the top lifeline just ahead of where the 'sausage' first crosses over the lifelines. Now work your way aft, muscling the sail onboard, sliding the snapshackle under the sail aft as far as it will go each time, then using the halyard like a tire lever. Generally the halyard will stop the sail rejoining the tide, but if it's really nasty, use a few sail ties to strap the sausage to the bottom lifeline (up off the deck) as you go, even if you plan (as you should) to put the sail into a bag. 
You need only go about one third of the foot length aft, then you can go to the sheet, wait for the right moment on a big wave, and use the sheet to flip the clew and the remaining corner of the sail onboard. 
Replace the lifelines regularly if you make a habit of doing this! 
This method keeps you inboard, and with your bum on or near the deck, where it belongs when working alone.

*UNLESS you modify the sail and the deck gear: eg fit eyelets behind the luff at regular intervals and keep a permanent downhaul line reeved from head to tack, passing alternately from one side of the sail through each eyelet to the other side all the way down. That line can be unclipped from the tack and run through a bullseye fairlead on the foredeck just aft of the tack fitting, with a cam cleat, for dropping the sail.
Take the tail of the halyard forrard with you when you go to drop it to control the speed. You probably can't do this from the cockpit because you're likely to need to do more stacking of the sail than is necessary with hanks.
Even then, many foils have their entry too low to the deck for this to be viable unless the sail is really pliable. 
Incidentally, this is a better way of rigging a downhaul even for a hanked sail, IMO, than the usual 'through the hanks' method, except in this case it pays to have the option to run the tail to a cleat in the cockpit AS WELL as be optionally able to work it from the foredeck.

Alternatively I guess you could make a 'net' or skeletal sail to hoist outside a boltrope equipped sail before dropping it. Needn't be tall, or even triangular (could be quadrilateral with a batten along the top) just effectively to extend the fencing effect of the lifelines to maybe 10' off the deck - but frankly what a palaver.

Those who dismiss hanked sails as being akin to Amish transportation options are, I think, doing themselves and their intellect no favours.

My preference for an optimum medium-sized rig for safe handling, short- and single- handed, would have at least some of the following (presupposing a cutter rig):

Halyard winches at the mast (makes it easy to work the halyards from the foredeck as described, for one thing... but again, in more general terms, it's an instance where what is most convenient is not necessarily the same as what is best.)
The winches should be located so the tails can be led forward after wrapping round the winch. If they're also to be worked from aft, use a snatchblock at deck level.

A reliable, strong furler on the forestay, with a very torsionally stiff headfoil with twin grooves of substantial size, opposite each other.

Headsails fitted with metal slugs (ideally, titanium, polished, hard-anodised, then impregnated with teflon!). Definitely no boltropes/luff tapes for this kid. 
Apart from anything else, they're too fragile, the sail is useless when they start to disintegrate, and they're hard to fix without running home to mum.

-- I find slides (ie female slugs) somewhat bulky, and too fiddly to fit onto the foil track. What's more, the extrusions to match are harder to find, and easier to damage. Magazine systems (which fit the slides automatically) seem to me a bit 'prima donna' in their performance -- and I wonder if they're perhaps a bit damage prone (or prone to damage other parts of the boat, sailbags etc while stowing or humping) for offshore long-term voyaging. However I've had limited exposure to them so it's largely speculation.

I would definitely stay with hanks for the inner forestay sails. Ideally the storm staysail would live permanently fitted to the stay, in a flush-deck locker at the foot of the stay, although draining such lockers is admittedly difficult. If this could be satisfactorarily arranged, the stay would keep going right down to the locker floor, at least in my dreams.
Such a sail could be shackled to the stay, which is my idea of salty, for a stormsail. I've never personally heard a row of hanks failing like machine gun fire, but hearing of it, from the mouths of people who have done, is sobering.

The best hanks ever crafted, to my way of thinking, are Wichard single-handed, lash on style. They work best on a rod stay or Dyform (stainless hanks and shackles are a bit unfriendly to wire).
If generously sized, these will not fail, and will outlast many sails.

On balance, even in my dreams, I'd probably opt to forgo the shackles and stow the stormsail in a locker with a hatch which could be tightly sealed, but preferably handy to the stay.


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## Andrew Troup (Jul 16, 2012)

TQA said:


> Typical sail for me single handed
> ............reckon on at least 6 changes to the size of the genoa and maybe as many as 12.
> 
> And that is why I and most other cruisers out here have roller reefing.


There's another way to change the size of a headsail from the cockpit which offers some of the advantages of both hanks and rollers.

Slab reefing.

My offshore sailing started on a boat which was too small and tender to appeal to today's sensibilities, but we were barely out of school so it was what we could afford, and we had some interesting times over a twelve year period, still the most fun we've ever had ... but because of the tenderness, one thing we had to do was have the right amount of sail up, at all times, and it had to be in the right balance.

We had two slabs put in the #2 genoa, and that took it down to working jib size. If that was still too big it was time to swap to storm jib.

We worked on the deck gear and running rigging over a couple of years and got things to the point where, (sailing hard on the wind) we would routinely reef for individual puffs and shake out for lulls. From the cockpit, and with only two people and no autopilot, we could do it, and did do it, day and night, without a flog or a flub. 
And we didn't pay a penalty we frankly couldn't afford, not just for the monetary cost of roller gear, but for the windage and weight aloft. 
A small boat with a tall masthead rig doesn't have anything to give in either of those areas.

If anyone's interested I can put together some of the tips and tricks we learned.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

While in my cruising life i am all about EASY and it all works FINE furling boom included










In my J24 life we have hanks there are a LOT of aspects like shredding spinnakers that are less than thrilling



















In my ongoing distance racing life while granted we have 5 to 7 people we have never lost or had and issue in over 30 years with a foil as the tack and clew are still locked down while your dealing with










This


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## smaynard (May 22, 2012)

I have not sailed in years but am getting back into it and looking to purchase a 40 ish boat next year. Is there a difference between roller furling and roller reefing? How does the 'reefing' work? I am doing the ASA certs and the boats we are using our instructor says to either have all or nothing.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

smaynard said:


> I have not sailed in years but am getting back into it and looking to purchase a 40 ish boat next year. Is there a difference between roller furling and roller reefing? How does the 'reefing' work? I am doing the ASA certs and the boats we are using our instructor says to either have all or nothing.


With a furler it is all or nothing. Typically the sail will have a wire luff with the drum at the bottom. Sailing with the sail partially rolled damages the sail.

With a reefer you can roll up or unroll as much of the sail as you want changing the size of the sail. The shape of the sail when partly rolled is not as good as it could be and the racers will just laugh at it. The forestay will have a tube of about 1.5 to 2.5 inches around it with the drum attached to the bottom.

I sail a 44 footer singled handed at age 65 and LOVE my roller reefing headsail which is about a 135 .


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