# Manson Supreme 25 or 35???



## irwin325cc (Feb 11, 2009)

Ok I've read alot of threads on this but am now on the cusp of buying. The question is 25lbs or 35lbs.

I have an Irwin 32.5 Centercockpit sloop. 13000lbs 4 ft draft I am jsut going off the top of my head here. I would just get the 25 if it would be what I would use it for over the next two years (Galveston Bay and Texas coast) but plan, as lots of others do, to go south through central america in two min. three max years. Is the extra 10lbs going to kill a thirty y.o.'s back much more than the 25. I am more worried about breaking it out of the mud as I do not have a windlass yet but am planning on a manual in the future (any used manual windlass's out there?).


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## irwin325cc (Feb 11, 2009)

O yes I have looked at the manufacturers recomendations but still have the bigger is better thought in my mind.


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## MC1 (Jan 6, 2008)

13,000lb boat, plus stores . . . definitely the 35. Thirty y.o. in good health . . . no problem-o.


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## klem (Oct 16, 2009)

It comes down to the role that you want the anchor to play. Some people primarily daysail and simply want a lunch hook and something to hang on once a year overnight and then a smaller anchor is fine. However, for someone who wants to anchor out a lot or sees their anchor as part of their storm gear (you need a backup plan when your engine won't push you into it and you can't reef down far enough in tight quarters) bigger is better. It sounds to me like you are probably in the second category which means getting a bigger anchor.

Most of the manufacturer recommendations are a joke in my opinion. They are for 30 knots and ideal conditions which is fine for a lunch hook but not okay when a 50 knot thunderstorm rolls through the anchorage and you don't have time to run and do something else. In my opinion, the closest to honest anchor sizing chart is the Rocna one which is pretty applicable for you since the Rocna and Manson Supreme have very similar holding characteristics.

Personally, I have a 33lb Rocna on a 10,000lb 30' boat and would have gone with the 44lb if I had a windlass. I like to sail a distance which means that I don't have the luxury of returning to my mooring for storms so I need an anchor that can get me through a decent blow.

If I were in your shoes, I would go with the 35lb anchor. You can always use the engine to break it out if it gets well buried.


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## tager (Nov 21, 2008)

Get the 35, but also get a 25, and a 8 pounder on some light rode. Then you have a storm anchor, an everyday anchor, and a lunch hook. On my boat (5000 lb 26') I have a 15lb danforth clone with a combination chain/3 strand rode. I also have an 8 pound "super hooker" on light line, just as a lunch hook. One nice thing about a small boat is that even a storm anchor can be hauled up by hand.


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## SVlagniappe (Jun 22, 2008)

A side point... You should break the anchor from the mud (regardless of weight) with your engine, not the windlass.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

I read the title and thought this was a question about a court decision.  Carry on.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

I'd go with the 25, along with a 45 or some other larger equal for when the hurricane runs thru. 

having done some anchor hunting myself recently, The general appears to be for a 35-40 knot wind. With some having lighter wind and heavier wind speeds for the size anchor you need. Like my 6500 lb 30'r would be an 8 lb for lunch, 15 fo up to 40, and 25 for up to 60 knots.

Marty


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

Get the 35. Snub it on the cleat when the rode is 1:1 and break free with the motor. I have a Rocna 33 (35) and you don't need a windlass.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

I'd get the 35. I agree the charts are a joke. It should be easy to handle and you'll sleep better. As posted break it out with the engine and you only have to lift it for as many feet as the water is deep + your freeboard. Bigger is better when it comes to anchors and wiring.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Get the 35 lb MS. The 25 is too small IMHO. I have a Rocna 15 (33 lbs) on my boat, just like Maine Sail, and my boat is significantly smaller and lighter than yours. 

If you're serious about the manual windlass, I'd highly recommend the SL/Lewmar Anchorman windlass I have aboard my boat. It uses a standard winch handle and works quite well.


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## Livia (Jul 20, 2006)

We are 35' and 16000lb + stores and we have the Manson 45lb. On the other hand, we have a manual windlass so I understand your dilemma.

We drilled a hole in the anchor so that the locking pin on our bow roller would fit and that's working very well for us:
SV Estrellita 5.10b: We are now SUPREME


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Everybody hold your breath until Craig arrives....


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Don't recommend drilling holes in anchors or using anchor retaining pins. If the anchor is hit by a wave, the pin can often get bent to the point where you can not remove it or free the anchor. Also, drilling the hole creates a place that isn't galvanized and the steel will start to corrode there far more quickly than the areas where the galvanization is intact.



Livia said:


> We are 35' and 16000lb + stores and we have the Manson 45lb. On the other hand, we have a manual windlass so I understand your dilemma.
> 
> We drilled a hole in the anchor so that the locking pin on our bow roller would fit and that's working very well for us:
> SV Estrellita 5.10b: We are now SUPREME


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## LinekinBayCD (Oct 19, 2009)

SD,

My anchor on occation has wedged itself tight under the pin making it a little tough to get out. What do you suggest for an alternative, just lashing it?


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

I may be a little different here. I'd forego the lunch-hook anchor and put the money and weight into a bigger sized storm anchor. I view raising the anchor as a fitness exercise and who doesn't need a little work out every once in a while?

For one thing, when a storm comes through while you are having a burger and a beer on shore, you won't have to race back and get all frantic as it starts to rain on you.

Secondly, sleeping soundly at night is way more important to me than making the anchor-raising workout easier.

I have some personal misgiving about Mansons. IMHO (and I could be wrong here), they stole the design from Rocna. I wouldn't support that. And they are inferior to Rocna to boot.

See here: About the Manson Supreme Anchor

And the Sailnet thread here: http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-maintenance/33231-manson-supreme.html

Regards,
Brad


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

I agree with Brad. I never understood the logic of anchoring with a smaller anchor unless just for lunch. Put the big one down and you're set for anything that comes your way. I also think the Rocna is a better choice than the Manson copy of it.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

LinekinBayCD—

Yes, I recommend lashing the anchor. This is particularly easy to do if you have a rollbar design like the Rocna, since the rollbar lends itself to lashing pretty well. If you don't%


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

LinekinBayCD-

Yes, I recommend lashing the anchor. This is particularly easy to do if you have a rollbar design like the Rocna, since the rollbar lends itself to lashing pretty well. If you don't have a rollbar design or can't lash the anchor itself, I would recommend using a chain pawl or chain tensioner on the chain part of the anchor rode.

Bene505-

I'd have to agree with you about going with a larger primary anchor and not spending the money on the lunch hook. I'd rather spend a bit more time horsing the anchor back aboard than have to worry if the wind picked up enough that the boat is dragging.

As for going with a Rocna&#8230; I thought the Rocna was worth the price premium as it is a better anchor than the Manson Supreme. Several of the Rocna owners I had spoken with, prior to buying mine, had owned the Manson Supreme and they had made the switch.

The reasons I think the Rocna is a better anchor have to do with its construction and design. The fluke on the Rocna is a single, heavy steel plate that is formed using a brake press. The Manson Supreme uses two lighter steel plates that are edge welded together to laminate them into a heavy fluke. Much of the edge welding is ground away in the shaping process and since the pieces are welded before the anchor is galvanized, the metal between the two layers that make up the fluke is unprotected AFAIK. This means that if there is any corrosion due to water intrusion, the rust will separate the two plates, destroying the fluke's integrity.

As for the design&#8230; what is up with the rock slot on the Manson Supreme. The rock slot is the long cut in the stock that weakens the stock. It is supposed to allow you to anchor in rocky areas and free the anchor by sliding the shackle down towards the fluke if it gets stuck. Now, my question to a Manson Supreme owner was quite simple:



> "How does the anchor know that you've intentionally slide the shackle and rode down the stock and that it wasn't caused by a reversing tide or wind?"


A horrified look appears on their face&#8230;and I reply,


> Oh yeah, I guess it can't&#8230; It strikes me as really dumb to design an anchor so that it will unset and never reset if the wind or current reverses, especially if it weakens the anchor stock to provide this feature.


One sailor I know said that retrieving the Rocna was too much work and took too much time after crewing on my boat. I asked them how much time they spent trying to re-set their anchor after failing to get it to set the first, second or third time. I bet I spend less time anchoring, since the Rocna usually sets on the first try-even if retrieving it does take a bit longer. I'd also point out that an anchor that is easy to retrieve can not possibly be doing its job properly. Guess what anchor they are using now???


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## irwin325cc (Feb 11, 2009)

Yes I thought that would be the reponse and I agree. In reading the hundereds of threads on these new anchors it has come up that the new styled anchors are rated at rougher winds/conditions. As the 25 is rated up to 35' I thought maybe but had that thought in the back of my mind that the 35 would be better. 

So far I have a 15lb danfroth knock off and was shocked when at Worst/West Marine looking at the physical size of the MS 35. Am I mistaken or are CQRs and such not that huge?

I am going to go back this weekend and probably buy it at West Marine with the defender price printed out as I will have to pay sales tax but will not have to pay S/H and I will get it right away. I wasn't aware that WM matchs price with competitors. With Blue Water Ships Store going out of buisness its nearly the only choice locally. 

Has anyone else found the Manson Supreme Gal. 35lb for better than $349.99?


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## josrulz (Oct 15, 2006)

I won't argue about which is better--anchor debates are much more fun to watch from afar. 

That said, we have a 12,000 lb Sabre 34, and we bought the 33 lb Rocna and love it. If I was choosing a Manson Supreme, I'd go with the 35, no question, unless it is meant to be a lunch hook.

We don't have a windlass and manage just fine on the Chesapeake. We're rarely hauling up more than the anchor and 10-15 feet of chain max (often less).

-J


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

sailingdog said:


> ...The reasons I think the Rocna is a better anchor have to do with its construction and design. The fluke on the Rocna is a single, heavy steel plate that is formed using a brake press. The Manson Supreme uses two lighter steel plates that are edge welded together to laminate them into a heavy fluke. Much of the edge welding is ground away in the shaping process and since the pieces are welded before the anchor is galvanized, the metal between the two layers that make up the fluke is unprotected AFAIK. This means that if there is any corrosion due to water intrusion, the rust will separate the two plates, destroying the fluke's integrity.


Dog,

Are you saying that salt water gets between the 2 plates that the fluke is made out of and rusts the fluke from the inside?

That would mean you can't see how bad it is, right?

Regards,
Brad


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

While I haven't seen this happen, due to the construction of the Manson Supreme, it would be a concern. The two plates that are laminated together to make the fluke are only edge welded, and the edge welding is ground down to shape the anchor...* if there were any pinhole leaks in the edge welding and water was able to get between the flukes, you would not be able to spot the corrosion until the fluke delaminated.* It just strikes me as being far less durable a design than the Rocna, which uses a single, heavier plate for the fluke.


Bene505 said:


> Dog,
> 
> Are you saying that salt water gets between the 2 plates that the fluke is made out of and rusts the fluke from the inside?
> 
> ...


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## kwaltersmi (Aug 14, 2006)

I just went through a similar debate in my head and here in another thread about if I'd be better off with a 22lbs or 33lbs Lewmar claw for my 28' Irwin (~8000lbs) without a windlass. We went with the 33 pounder, taking heart knowing that it is oversized for our boat. I'll let you know how well we sleep after this summer.


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## lancelot9898 (Dec 30, 2008)

irwin325cc said:


> Has anyone else found the Manson Supreme Gal. 35lb for better than $349.99?


A couple of years ago, I bought a 45 Manson Supreme from WM for something less than that. Every now and then WM has some good sales, but not that often. I usually check out Defender for better pricing and your comment about WM matching priceing is correct except they always add in S&H and taxes to the price always resutling in a higher price than Defender which does not include tax.

One other point is that Manson has a certification from Lolydes of London which should mean that the anchor is manufactured to some good standards.

I've had good luck anchoring in various conditions here on the Cheaspeake Bay and it held my 30,000 lb displacement sailboat well under full gale conditions. In the past I've used a 35lb CQR and it held during a Cat 1 hurricane, but other times I've had trouble setting in soft mud. The larger the anchor is always best, but just as important is proper setting and location, location, location.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Lancelot—

the Lloyds thing is more a marketing gimmick than much else.


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## LinekinBayCD (Oct 19, 2009)

If you keep an eye on West Marine, you can catch a sale and get the Rocna at a fair discount. I ordered a 33lb Rocna last Thanksgiving when they were haveing some kind of Black Friday sale. It might have been 20-15% off.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

sailingdog said:


> Don't recommend drilling holes in anchors or using anchor retaining pins. If the anchor is hit by a wave, the pin can often get bent to the point where you can not remove it or free the anchor. Also, drilling the hole creates a place that isn't galvanized and the steel will start to corrode there far more quickly than the areas where the galvanization is intact.


C'mon Dog I've drilled a number of my anchors and almost all of them have been pinned. Never bent a pin nor had any corrosion issues. The galvanization is easily voided up here in Maine so I have LOTS of spots that are no different than my "pin" hole. If you're concerned about the pin getting stuck drill the hole in the anchor slightly larger...

Sailed through the Perfect Storm with a pinned anchor, but also had a chain stopper, and a number of Nor' Easters, also buried the bow tons of times and never once bent a pin.

I actually prefer a pin as it is quick to deploy in an emergency. In thousands of miles of sailing I've never once had an issue other than dropping a pin that came un-leashed overboard. I always have spares though..


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

Does anyone have a good picture of the pin and anchor setup that's being discussed? (I always tie a line through the chain and onto a the cleat, keeping the line taut. I'm thinking there could be a better way here.)

Regards,
Brad


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Use a chain tensioner:










Mounts to the deck, tensions by hooking to your anchor chain. 


Bene505 said:


> Does anyone have a good picture of the pin and anchor setup that's being discussed? (I always tie a line through the chain and onto a the cleat, keeping the line taut. I'm thinking there could be a better way here.)
> 
> Regards,
> Brad


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## Livia (Jul 20, 2006)

Maine Sail said:


> C'mon Dog I've drilled a number of my anchors and almost all of them have been pinned. Never bent a pin nor had any corrosion issues.


We drilled a larger hole because we screwed up our measuring and had to redrill it. Now I can just lie and say it was in case of a bent pin  We thought about the bent pin and just planned on using our storm anchor in that scenario. It should be easily deployable and if it isn't, that is a bigger problem to deal with.

We only made the hole not quite a year ago and we are in the PNW "regular fresh water rinse" region so I can't speak about long term and rust. So far, no rust.

Depending on how offshore we are going, we will take the anchor off the bow. Basically if there is no chance of needing to use it (like in the middle of a Pacific crossing) it won't be on the bow but on near coastal it will probably stay. Still working that out.


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## irwin325cc (Feb 11, 2009)

Lanceolot, the price was defenders price minus the S/H the West Marines is 449.99 minus sales tax. I figured it would abolt wash. 

If they want to stick S/H on an anchor thats in stock I will just flat out order from defender. And probably tell WM to stick it somewhere. There just are no other instore choices on Clearlake/Galveston Bay but WM.


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## lancelot9898 (Dec 30, 2008)

sailingdog said:


> Lancelot-
> 
> the Lloyds thing is more a marketing gimmick than much else.


Hey Dog,

What you say has some truth to it, but not sure how much. I would guess it might be closer to one extreme (0%) vs. the other(100%), but then it's only a wag on my part. Your point about the construction was also what I was concerned about, but after speaking with the owner of Manson, I was satisfied.


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## Craig Smith (Jun 21, 2006)

Cruisingdad said:


> Everybody hold your breath until Craig arrives....


You called?



Bene505 said:


> Dog,
> Are you saying that salt water gets between the 2 plates that the fluke is made out of and rusts the fluke from the inside?
> That would mean you can't see how bad it is, right?
> Regards,
> Brad


That, plus a number of other issues. They blow apart occasionally during galvanizing, obviously they don't get sold like that but good luck for owners when they go to get them re-galv'ed. The main issue is that they're making up the necessary blade thickness of the Rocna they're copying by edge-welding two thin sheets of steel together, rather than using solid steel. Guess what that does to the strength.

There is more info on this plus pics of a few real-world examples here:
www.petersmith.net.nz/boat-anchors/manson-supreme-anchor.php



lancelot9898 said:


> One other point is that Manson has a certification from Lolydes of London which should mean that the anchor is manufactured to some good standards.


Lloyd's of London is an insurance market so I suspect you have your wires crossed. Possibly your understanding of what Lloyd's Register or any other classification actually means is at a similar level.

Rocna for its part has RINA, obtained by ironically using a Supreme as a benchmark which was known could be beaten. But for a 15 kg anchor it's all but irrelevent. The marketing slogans look good but it's only needed for large picks obeying certification standards.

www.petersmith.net.nz/boat-anchors/classification.php



LinekinBayCD said:


> If you keep an eye on West Marine, you can catch a sale and get the Rocna at a fair discount. I ordered a 33lb Rocna last Thanksgiving when they were haveing some kind of Black Friday sale. It might have been 20-15% off.


The Rocna 15 (33 lb) is considerably cheaper now at West Marine than the 35 lb Manson copy. Not sure how you'd come out with the price matching.



Maine Sail said:


> C'mon Dog I've drilled a number of my anchors and almost all of them have been pinned. Never bent a pin nor had any corrosion issues. The galvanization is easily voided up here in Maine so I have LOTS of spots that are no different than my "pin" hole.


Then you've been lucky. It is a very real issue, albeit mostly for larger anchors. We've seen lots of bent pins and it's no fun hack-sawing one after a hard sail when you need the anchor 5 minutes ago.

That's not considering the big hole of steel you just took out of the anchor shank in the exact position the failure point usually is. A 10 mm hole in a shank where the height is 100 mm will decrease the strength by 10%, not counting any more harm done by rust over time.

www.rocna.com/kb/Anchor_retainment


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

lancelot9898

I think the owner of Manson could be a bit biased.


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## Architeuthis (Mar 3, 2008)

Craig Smith said:


> Then you've been lucky. It is a very real issue, albeit mostly for larger anchors. We've seen lots of bent pins and it's no fun hack-sawing one after a hard sail when you need the anchor 5 minutes ago.
> 
> That's not considering the big hole of steel you just took out of the anchor shank in the exact position the failure point usually is. A 10 mm hole in a shank where the height is 100 mm will decrease the strength by 10%, not counting any more harm done by rust over time.
> 
> Anchor retainment (Rocna Knowledge Base)


Not a very good argument against pins IMO.

Sure pins bend, haven't had any that required a hacksaw, a wiggle seems to be all that is required but lets say it bends such that it needs hacksawing. Sure it can take 5 mins to cut, might take 15 if that hacksaw is in the bottom of the bilge but overall pins will still be quicker than lashing. Lashing requires a few more seconds everytime they are used. Since it is years between bent pins requiring cutting pins will be quicker. Pins are also more likely to be used everytime, unlike lashing which might get skipped when in a rush.

A 3/8" hole is pretty big, can't see that pin bending, maybe that is why some people use them but if an anchor fails at that point it was seeing 90% max load. Wow that's some good ground tackle but at those forces I expect something to give, possibly my boat.

But it might rust or bend requiring the anchor to be repaired or replaced so drilling a hole is not such a great idea, unless that point happens years down the road. Anchors do not last forever, there is some pro-rating to be done on the holed anchor.

I do really like the set up on the Rocna web site. A custom built hold down bracket that flips out of the way is the best. For many it will also cost about the same as another anchor so it is not cheaper than drilling a hole and having those problems.

But it is easier for a manufacturer to just say no mods and avoid the problems of claims than actually consider how their product is going to be mounted and used. So of course a custom mount is best.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

A lashing is not slower in an emergency when the hook needs to be dropped quickly. Just cut it with the knife you should always have handy. Beats trying to find the hacksaw to cut a bent jammed pin. The lashing is only slower to tie but then you have the time.


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## Livia (Jul 20, 2006)

Whenever I hear a negative report on Manson's Supreme it is from someone selling Rocna's or a testimonial from the Rocna site . That is one source of information but one that I think we are all naturally skeptical about.

Is there an user on this forum, who is not a vendor or a vendor's close friend, with a first hand report of their OWN Manson rusting or delaminating? That would be cool to hear about (and see pictures of).


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Bears repeating... I always have a knife on me when aboard, and never had a problem with a lashing.  Getting the hacksaw would take more time than cutting the lashing.



mitiempo said:


> *A lashing is not slower in an emergency when the hook needs to be dropped quickly. Just cut it with the knife you should always have handy.* Beats trying to find the hacksaw to cut a bent jammed pin. The lashing is only slower to tie but then you have the time.


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## lancelot9898 (Dec 30, 2008)

Craig Smith said:


> Lloyd's of London is an insurance market so I suspect you have your wires crossed. Possibly your understanding of what Lloyd's Register or any other classification actually means is at a similar level.


Well Graig you don't have to be insulting, but I've seen some of your other posts so I don't really expect much from you. I don't think you're worth talking to.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Regardless of what you think of Craig's statements it is not hard to tell which anchor is the better constructed one. The Rocna.


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