# DS 20 performance



## AllThumbs (Jul 12, 2008)

Antone know or own this boat? It's a 20 foot, 1850 lbs displacement swing keel boat with 185 square feet of sail. It is said to be slow by some who have owned one. Just wondering how slow? 

Also what makes a design slower than another? Is it mainly displacement vs. sail area? Does swing keel = slow? Hull shape has something to do with it I am sure too.

Thanks, Eric


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

looks like a cute little boat. swing keel does not becessarily equal slow.


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## AllThumbs (Jul 12, 2008)

Here is a pic from the original brochure....


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## bobmcgov (Jul 19, 2007)

PHRF average is 285, which puts it slower than the Balboa 20 or ComPac19, both famously pokey boats. But who cares? All sailboats are slow. You can pay $10 million for the latest canting-keel, carbon fiber racer and go as fast as ... a person on a bicycle. So once you get your head around that, it becomes a matter of HOW slow a sailboat is -- and more importantly, how slow it feels. A Hobie 14 is slow, a Sunfish is slow -- but they sure feel like they are ripping along. Helm response, acceleration, heeling, pitching all contribute to a boat's feeling of excitement. Hard to advise on that.

From the picture you posted, I'd say the mast is short and the mainsail very small, roachless. Can't even see the purpose of that first set of reef points. Long spreaders and jibsheets outside the shrouds suggest it's hard to get a fine slot between the sails; that'll rob your power. It's a beamy bugger that carries its width well aft, so it'll be stable but with some drag. Cockpit looks comfy, nice fat rails to sit on, looks like a recessed traveler mid-boom. Appears well set up and ready to sail. I like it. If you can arrange a test sail, see if it feels heavy or quick.

Edit: just noticed the red boat in your first post lacks the traveler; may be set up for boom-end sheeting. on this boat, I'd call that a demerit. Not a huge one, but still.


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## AllThumbs (Jul 12, 2008)

The only other boat I have sailed (crewed really) close to this size was an Edel 540. How does this boat compare to it for speed?


Here are some more specs:

LOA: 20'5"
Beam: 7'7"
Headroom: 4'10"
LWL: 18'1"
Draft 22"
Sail Area: 185 sq. ft.
Displacement: 1850 lbs.
Ballast: 650 lbs

Another pic. The keel is a swing keel but I think it swings into this shoal looking keel.

Not sure about how the main is sheeted. 

I am going to look at the boat this weekend. It's only $1500.00 but is supposed to be in good condition. We will see. I thinks it's been painted all over. I am not holding my breath.

Anyone know what the little blackboard on the right side of the transom is?


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## bobmcgov (Jul 19, 2007)

AllThumbs said:


> The only other boat I have sailed (crewed really) close to this size was an Edel 540. How does this boat compare to it for speed?
> 
> Here are some more specs:
> 
> ...


If the Edel 540 is the same as the Edel 5.4 OB, then this boat is faster. The Edel has an average PHRF of _309_, which makes it the slowest sailboat I've ever seen. Slower than the Ensenada20. Slower than the Westerly Centaur. Slower, one thinks, than Thor Heyerdahl's waterlogged papyrus raft. No wait -- ComPac has a couple models at 318.

Perhaps the blackboard is for scrawling, "Help, I've fallen overboard and can't pull myself back in"? This RS looks much like the RK or Balboa20 in different dress. Down to the swing keel setup. Anyone know where those molds ended up?


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## AllThumbs (Jul 12, 2008)

Where are you getting thos PHRF numbers? You have a link to a website?


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

http://www.ussailing.org/phrf/Tool_ HI_LO_AVG Report.pdf

Here is US Sailings hi, low ae ratings for a number of boats. I have not looked to see if this boat is on the list.

To me anyway, this boat looks like it could be a good boat depending upon what it is your after. For $1500, you should be able to sell her for what you paid for, maybe a bit more if it needs some cleaning up on the inside. Outside, looks good, but as you mention, it may be new paint, which in and of itself, is not all bad either!

Marty


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## AllThumbs (Jul 12, 2008)

It could be tremclad housepaint on her tho....

She is listed there as 288 average. Thanks for the link.


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## AllThumbs (Jul 12, 2008)

Hey, my current boat is listed there. A Scirocco 15 (miss-spelled tho, it should be Sirocco 15). It is listed as a PHRF of 348. This means the DS 20 is the faster boat?

Eric


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## Delirious (Dec 16, 2001)

Yep. You'll be giving Starwind 19s a run for their money.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

Having gone from a Victoria 18 to a J24  


Slow was not the big issue BUT the Victoria 18 had really poor upwind and high wind(15 to 18) performance

This made getting home in my area a nightmare as there was only the easy OUT and the hard way HOME


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## AllThumbs (Jul 12, 2008)

Always make sure you are beating on the way out, and running or reaching on the way home.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Depending upon where you are located, your choices may only be beating or running! As it is here in puget sound. Then the wind can change from nice weather are northerly winds, low pressure/bad weather, the wind is out of the south! So a weather front comes in, or out when you've gone on way, and the next day can be going the opposite way!

Anyway, yes the DS20 should be faster overall than your current boat. BUT, compare it to the new LaserSB 20'r, and that is in the upper 90's IIRC?!?!?!?! so it will pass you like your sitting still, in either boat!

marty


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## AllThumbs (Jul 12, 2008)

Well, I went to see this boat. It's really old and really solid. Built like a tank. Heres the deal:

-It needs all new running rigging.
-Sails are old but reasonable looking.
-The tangs on the mast for the shrouds need to be replaced. They must have broken or at least cracked because they have been welded. 
-The forstay and shrouds are 1/8" SS cable and looked good. No broken strands.
-The chainplates looked good. They don't fasten to a bulkhead but flat to the inside of the hull.
-The backstay is galvanized cable and there was some tackle on the bottom. I assume this is for adjusting the backstay tension?
-The interior incorperates a big one peice liner which seemed really solid. One problem with this is there was no way to see what's under the sole of the cabin. I could look in lockers on the cabin benches and see the inside of the hull but the area under the sole is not accessible.
-No bilge pump - and I don't know where one should go. The area under the cockpit is isolated from the area under the cabin which is isolated from the area under the v berth.
-Electrics need totally redone
-Decks solid
-Cockpit solid
-No outboard
-The whole boat needs TLC cosmetically
-The "blackboard" on the transom is a solar panel. I have no idea why it's mounted there.

I kind of like the idea of fixing this one up. I have the time and skills and the tools to do it. I would need to find the space, since I can't do it at home.

The mainsail boom control is some kind of triangular arrangement (sheet goes from the rear of boom to port side to boom to starboard side where it gets cleated in a cam type cleat. I have no idea how this arrangement works or if it's a good thing.

The guy has had it for sale for a year. He wants 1500.00 and he want's it gone pretty bad I think. I am considering offering him $500.00 if I can find a place to work in it.

Eric


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## UmbraeRichy (Oct 14, 2009)

*Similar boat*

Hey!

Did you actualy buy it? I'm looking at a similar boat near my place. Seems in a bit worse condition compared to the one on your pics.


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## UmbraeRichy (Oct 14, 2009)

*Similar boat*

Here are a few pictures of the one I'm looking at...


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## UmbraeRichy (Oct 14, 2009)

Here are the links:

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Thanks for your thoughts!


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## UmbraeRichy (Oct 14, 2009)

Here are a few more :


















































































Hope they give you a rough idea of the boat's condition.

Thanks!


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## UmbraeRichy (Oct 14, 2009)

She comes with 
-a couple of hours of work (way more than that, not too sure how many though?);
-lots of cleaning;
-older suzuki 9.9 (no idea of working condition, the motor wasn't with the boat at the time of inspection)
-metal gas tank with 5 year old gas still in it;
-battery left in the boat for many years (including winter);
-2 probably seized 12V water pump (couldn't try because battery is no good)
-4 sails (1 main, 2 genoa, 1 storm jib) all original, and all (except for jib) have rips;
-80's dry rotten life vests (5),
-very old depth sounder;
-equally old VHF (with no antena);
-seats are not the greatest color (not too bad since they all need to be replaced, rotten);
-all teak needs care;
-spreaders both bent;
-needs new lines for running rigging;
-some weird spots in the deck (see roten wood photo above VHF);
-sketchy plumbing;
-wiring needs redone;
-too much junk all over;
-twin axel trailer (custom?) needs to be sandblasted/painted;
-rudder blade slightly bent to port;
-bulkheads are wood cover with paint&glass many need to be recovered;
-unsure of proper swage system plan (see plumbing);
-no aft railing (were they standard, I think so judging from DS20 photos I have seen...);
-raising/lowering keel mechanism seems functional (but no means of testing it, nor seeing if there is any aft keel section left/damage.)

I'm also a bit concerned by the thickness of the hull (is it just me or there is not much fiberglass on this thing?)

He wants 4000$ (can) for it and wants it gone before snow comes. Willing to offer 800 if engine works... Reasonable?


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## arf145 (Jul 25, 2007)

AllThumbs got that boat, I believe, and posted extensively on the work he did on it. You should be able to find it in a search.


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## AllThumbs (Jul 12, 2008)

I didn't get this one. The seller scoffed at my rediculous offer, but I did buy another just like it for $750. It's a good boat. There is enough glass. The light you see thru the glass from the inside is normal. These boats come in shoal draft or centerboard (swing keel) The shoal draft is just the centerboard boat without the board. Some folks complain about the shoal draft version and it's ability to point. My boat was sailed all summer by me and it points just as well as any other non racer. Watch the keel as some get water in them and then bust when it freezes. Mine was alright. Yours looks a little better than mine inside. I am working on my interior this winter. Ask any question you like and I will try to answer. I would say yours is worth $800 as is. I paid $ 750 for mine.

Here is the thread of the refinish job I did. http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-maintenance/48179-my-project-boat.html


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## AllThumbs (Jul 12, 2008)

Oh, here is the DS 20 yahoo group. Pretty quiet group, we can always use another active member.

DS20-22-DillerSchwill20-22 : DS20&22 DillerSchwill20&22


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## AllThumbs (Jul 12, 2008)

Here we are sailing ours this summer. I think she made a pretty sailboat.


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## UmbraeRichy (Oct 14, 2009)

Hi,

Thanks for the quick response and all the information. She looks nice by the way.

The link could prove very useful it I finally buy the boat. I'm still debating this issue in my mind. I do have a question for you though. It doesn't seem like you had to do much structural repair on the boat, am I right? (I haven't got the time to read all of your project boat thread...) I'm asking this because I don't want to get involved in intense deck restoration. Take a look at this picture and you'll probably understand what I mean.










If you look at the top section of the picture, it shows the bottom of the deck. Unfortunately I didn't have a moisture meter with me when it did the inspection, but just from looking at it, I fear there will be deck replacement work to be done... Am I giong crazy over this... If you could confirm my "diagnostic" (as hard as this may be just from the picture and all my blabla...) How does this area look like on your boat, similar concerns? It's the area close to the stb nav light. It looks a bit better on the port side:










There are also the two bulkheads (glass coverd plywood) that are rotten where they meet the bilge...

Anyways, I'll offer him 800 and see what he says...

Cheers,

Alex


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## AllThumbs (Jul 12, 2008)

I have done nothing structuraly to my deck. The boat uses plywood backing plates under the hardware, and this is what you are seeing in those pics. They seem to be glued in place and then the edges of the plywood camfered back to the underside of the deck using some sort of filler. I would not be too concerned about these bits of plywood. They are not the "core" of the laminate but rather glued to the outside of the laminate on the bottom. At least on my boat. This winter, I may try to peel some of these backing plates off and replace with aluminium. We will see.

The core on the early DS boats was regular 1/4" pegboard. I guess the thought was that since it has holes every few inches, it would allow the top and bottom layers of the laminate to be bonded together thru the holes. The pegboard was used on the cabin top and forward deck. I suppose it could get wet and rot, but mine seems to be pretty solid and the peg board doesn't seem to wick a lot of water the way balsa core does. If you look closely, you can see the pegboard holes as dimples in the laminate. See pic below. Look closely where the light reflects on the center part of the hatch.

My boat needs some smaller bulkheads below the cockpit replaced, altho I sailed it all summer as is. Mine are not rotten, but rather delaminated from the tabbing due to being wet for so long. The bilge on these boats is shallow and wide, so any water in the bilge covers a large area, and right up against a plywood bulkhead (the one that keeps bilge water out of the cabin). I plan on replacing these bulkheads with sheets of solid 1/4" fiberglass and then tabbing them in.

Eric


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## AllThumbs (Jul 12, 2008)

Here is the state of my bilge area and the two bulkheads in question. These seem to have been replaced once before. These will be replaced with fiberglass sheets. Everything will be cleaned up and painted too.

Eric


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## AllThumbs (Jul 12, 2008)

Looking at your pics again, I see the ply backing plate for what I think is the winch. The other bits of ply do not exist on my boat, and I don't see any hardware poking thru them, so I am not sure what the purpose of those are. Your boat, like mine, is glassed together at the deck-hull seam. That is a good thing.

It would be good to see some pics of the deck/cockpit. The deck shape changed after a few years, making room for longer jib car tracks, and the winches further aft in the cockpit. Then, there was a fire at the factory and the new mold was destroyed, so they went back to the old mold. That means that old and new boats had the old deck mold, and middle boats have the "new" deck mold. What year is the one you are looking at?

Eric


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## AllThumbs (Jul 12, 2008)

Oh, and the stern rail was an option, so not all boats had it.

Eric


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## UmbraeRichy (Oct 14, 2009)

Hello Eric,

Sorry I didn't reply earlier, I couldn't login for some reason. Anyway...

The guy declined my offer of 800 bucks for the boat  too bad.

Thanks for all your help tho, I learned a lot. It should be very useful if another DS comes around! I'll keep an eye out!

Cheers,

Alex


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## Onalake (Jun 4, 2010)

*DS 20 - did you buy it?*

I realize this is two years later.... looking at a DS-20 tomorrow,,,, Trailer, Suzuki 8 hp, genoa, jib, main. $2,500 CAD asking price,,,, can likely get it for $2,000.

Anyone else with comments on the DS 20?

Thanks


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## Stroke2017 (Apr 21, 2017)

I just bought one, love it!


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## zif00159 (3 mo ago)

AllThumbs said:


> Antone know or own this boat? It's a 20 foot, 1850 lbs displacement swing keel boat with 185 square feet of sail. It is said to be slow by some who have owned one. Just wondering how slow? Also what makes a design slower than another? Is it mainly displacement vs. sail area? Does swing keel = slow? Hull shape has something to do with it I am sure too. Thanks, Eric


 I am looking for a swing keel for the 1982 Schwill ds-20 that fell off while sailing any idea's before I make the purchase?


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