# Should we even do the intercostal en-route south? From what I am reading...



## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

..


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## marianclaire (Feb 4, 2010)

This is just my opinion and not advice. Every mile of the ICW has worth but some miles you may want to see only once. You can not drop the hook anywhere but there are many many anchorages. Some beautiful and isolated some crowded and functional. Skipper Bob is great but there are other options. Be creative but stay out of the channel. The ICW is slow and not for night travel but you can use it when off shore is not comfortable. I have covered from the Pamlico Sound to Keys three times in the last 5 years and Pamlico north to Yorktown last spring. Some days are boring some are great. You run into many great people and a few jerks. I single-hand a lot so my off shore runs are limited. I definitely try and go out anywhere south of St Lucie or Jupiter Inlet. I believe half+- of the 60+- bridges I have to deal with are south of there and the jumps are short. I only draw 3.5 ft so I have it easier than most but I know many folks with more that run the ICW with few problems. I have been boarded/inspected many times and it might have been inconvenient but basically painless. Again some of that is luck of the draw. There is beauty in every mile, off shore or in the ditch. Dan S/V Marian Claire Heading south in 19 days. Yeeehaa


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

If you're more concerned with the destination than the journey, stay outside. At least from Beaufort Inlet south. If you're not in a hurry, stay inside at least till Hilton Head Island.

I've had no problem finding places to anchor, and have only been boarded once, and that was part of a CG training exercise. The Florida bridges south of Fort Pierce can be a pain, as most are on a schedule rather than on demand.

Skipper Bobs and Cruisernet are good resources. I use the Maptech Chart Books rather than individual charts. Dozier's Waterway Guide is also useful.


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## john1066 (Feb 4, 2006)

Thing have probably changed since I did the last of my eight trips up and down the east coast, but I never had a problem anchoring and I was never boarded or inspected. 

I've never tried to go round Hattarras, always electing to stay inside from the Bay to Moorhead City, but after that I've done it entirely outside and entirely inside. Obviously, weather is the big issue if you intend to stay outside. Just don't be in the Stream in anything with north in it.

I like the ICW and would like to do it one time on a more suitable vessel than a sailboat with its deep draft and mast. 

If you intend to leave the country and have no interest in exploring the eastern seaboard then by all means just head south to the Bahamas.


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## nancishouse (Jun 19, 2004)

*ICW route*

I've done the ICW 15 times. I have never been boarded. Always found anchorages - The beauty of the ICW is that weather is not usually a factor. I find the ICW much more interesting than the ocean. Don't like those over-nighters either.


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## marianclaire (Feb 4, 2010)

Please do not take anything I say as a recommendation. I would have to know a great deal about you, your crew and your boat before recommending a course of action. 
Info: I agree with the previous post. Skipper Bob’s ICW anchorage book is #1. It covers anchorages, bridge schedules, areas of strong currents etc. There is also a web site with updates. Things do change so do not take anything as gospel and some of the on shore info is subjective ie. A long walk to the grocery store for one person is a pleasure for others. I also use the large charts. I found an old set and went on-line and page by page updated the markers. As soon as something is printed it is out of date as inlet markers constantly change. Honor what is on the water. 
My experience is that 99.9% of the people on the water and on shore were nice. A few years back Fla did push the anchoring issue to hard and has paid the price with bad press and I think has backed off some. If you can find a more cruiser friendly town than St Mary’s Ga I will eat my hat. Again it is luck of the draw. If you get pulled by the officer on a power trip it is going to be a hassle. The CG and most of the enforcement officers I have encountered where very professional and courteous. I think, as in the news, we hear a great deal about the one bad apple and little about the others.
I think many of us could talk/write/tell stories for ever on how we contact/dealt with bridges, fast boats, tides, strong currents, the beauty of some areas, the opulence of Ft Lala, the Rock Pile, Elliot’s Cut, the list is endless.
Dan S/V Marian Claire


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

If you're like me (fairly new to sailing, limited to the Ches. Bay, non-bluewater boat) then based on your end-destination, I would consider using the ICW to get you safely south of Cape Hatteras (graveyard of the Atlantic) and then pop out and sail along the coast the rest of the way.

Nothing says the ICW is an "all or nothing" proposition.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

A lot of doing the ICW depends on what you are looking for. If you want speed, you go outside. If you want nature, you stay inside. If you want a bit of everything, then mix it up, depending on conditions.

A lot depends also, on the time of year. The later in the year, the more likely you are to stay inside.

There's many points of historical interest, as well as places of natural beauty, like Charleston and Cumberland Island. Or maybe you want to see Cape Canaveral. It's all up to what you want to do.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I'd point out that once you're south of Cape Hatteras, going outside isn't too difficult and lets you make more distance in less time. 

The ICW is probably at its worst in Georgia, since the ICW there hasn't been all that well maintained, and the ICW there isn't anything close to straight.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

chrisncate -

Where are you on the Bay? I'm in Annapolis and have done the trip South many times, albeit more out than in. Happy to catch up with you near Annapolis and share my experiences and walk through the charts.


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## Taffy1960 (Jul 18, 2008)

Hi,

maybe his helps, 

I went inside in Norfolk last year heading south because I was single handed. I didn t want to night sail outside. Seems you are accompanied, so perhaps not such an issue. 

I had a 4.5ft draft and yes kissed the bottom in more than a few places - but hey that s part of the fun trying to get off right? Apart from just one spot the channel is very well marked. Bob s anchorages are great - peace of mind. The other non recommended spots often have strong tidal currants - especially close to inlets. 

I had no time constraints which was the best way to enjoy many cool places I stopped at. As you can see my journey was more of a tourist route. One worrying aspect was that between May and July everyone was coming the other way! I must have waved to thousands .... many I believe getting their boats north for insurance reasons. 

The USCG were great. No problem. No boarding. Once into Florida the bridges increase drastically in frequency, so going outside there in the nice clear water with the flying fish is a good idea. Squalls are frequent with thunderstorms (at least when I did it) so I felt more comfortable inside. 

I, like most i suspect really enjoy being under sail. I think I was between Norfolk and the keys without engine maybe half the time? appox .... but then again under the slightest puff the sails were out. In florida with a distinctly narrower channel and more bridges it was more engine. 

For me a truly memorable trip. 

Ian S (Brit living in chile)
boat = Allied Seawind 1976


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Sorry, but I think you may be over-thinking this just a bit&#8230; I don't see the need to choose so far in advance, or make the sorts of decisions best left until you actually commence your trip&#8230;

I'd definitely recommend going inside until Beaufort, at least. NC offers some of the nicest inland sailing you'll find anywhere on the East Coast. Frankly, I find the Dismal Swamp route a bit overrated, especially if you are doing it as part of the herd in the height of the season.

Instead, I'd recommend going down thru Pamlico Sound if the weather favors it&#8230; Beautiful sailing, the chance to visit some places rarely visited by cruising boats. Don't miss Ocracoke, one of my favorite places anywhere on the East coast&#8230; If you really want to bypass the start of the Ditch thru Norfolk, you can go down outside to Oregon Inlet, and into the sound from there&#8230; However, do not even THINK about this route unless you're very confident of the weather, you are experienced running inlets like Oregon, and are fully prepared to stay out around Hatteras should conditions change&#8230;

From Beaufort south, simply let the weather dictate your route&#8230; there are some beautiful daysails to be had between there and Florida - Beaufort - Wrightsville, Southport - Little River or Murrells Inlet, Fernandina - St Augustine, etc&#8230; Each one of those bypass sections of the ICW which have become incredibly tedious, and offer beautiful sailing along the beach in the conditions that can often prevail in the fall&#8230;

One of the reasons the ICW turns into such a forced march for so many, IMHO, is the ease with which many people fall into groups traveling together - usually led by some "Guru" who's done the trip previously, and will dictate the pace, and itinerary&#8230; Go at your own pace, try choosing anchorages by looking at a chart, than from a guidebook&#8230; At Beaufort, try to go out to Lookout Bight for an overnight or two, duck into Little River Inlet and anchor up inside the barrier beach to the east. A beautiful spot, virtually guaranteed you'll have it to yourself&#8230; Traveling the Ditch can be a very enjoyable experience socially, but I think some folks wind up missing some great spots by getting caught too much up with that aspect, and the mindset of maintaining a minimum daily average&#8230;

IMHO, a trip south along the East coast should be no different than any other sort of cruising, best dictated by the weather, and your mood at the time&#8230;

Here's more of my take on it, though some of this is perhaps outdated by now&#8230;

An Insider's ICW | Cruising World


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

With all due respect Jon, and recognizing your experience as greater than my own, I think there are some inter-related factors that drive the thundering herd down the ICW in the Fall. Regardless of whether the Annapolis Boat Show in October causes one to dawdle, there is still an accumulation of the migration in Norfolk waiting for the somewhat arbitrary 1 November "end" to hurricane season imposed by insurance companies. By that time--certainly the last few years--it is usually quite chilly at night and often less than comfortable during the day. This leads to an impetus toward making miles toward warmer weather. 

Add in the late starts so many get each day (punctuated by "it's too d&*n cold out, have another cup of coffee") and the stress level associated with making the next anchorage goes up.

In my mind, installing decent heat for the boat and negotiation for an insurance rider at some reasonable cost to proceed South a bit earlier would lead to a much more pleasant experience. At a bare (hah!) minimum a toilet seat somewhat above cryogenic temperatures adds greatly to civility and decorum aboard.

I did enjoy the ICW article. Thank you Jon for the link. I agree that full enclosures have a very real impact on the desire and ability to sail. I won't have one myself, and in fact rarely unfurl the bimini. A good dodger is eminently satisfactory, providing good protection and still allowing a good view to trim sails and take in the surroundings. 

Janet and I greatly enjoy Ocracoke also. We also like Elizabeth City, Beaufort, and Charleston. Each is worth a few days exploration.

That said, if the goal is to reach the Bahamas and the ICW is only a means to an end I prefer launching from Norfolk and making the Abacos four days later.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

SVAuspicious said:


> With all due respect Jon, and recognizing your experience as greater than my own, I think there are some inter-related factors that drive the thundering herd down the ICW in the Fall. Regardless of whether the Annapolis Boat Show in October causes one to dawdle, there is still an accumulation of the migration in Norfolk waiting for the somewhat arbitrary 1 November "end" to hurricane season imposed by insurance companies. By that time--certainly the last few years--it is usually quite chilly at night and often less than comfortable during the day. This leads to an impetus toward making miles toward warmer weather.
> 
> Add in the late starts so many get each day (punctuated by "it's too d&*n cold out, have another cup of coffee") and the stress level associated with making the next anchorage goes up.
> 
> In my mind, installing decent heat for the boat and negotiation for an insurance rider at some reasonable cost to proceed South a bit earlier would lead to a much more pleasant experience. At a bare (hah!) minimum a toilet seat somewhat above cryogenic temperatures adds greatly to civility and decorum aboard.


Good points, of course... No need to remind me of the effect of insurance dictating the schedules of many, the changes in policies over recent years have pretty effectively cut in half the number of deliveries I'm now able to do each fall, even before the switch was effectively turned off in that business a couple of years ago with the crash of the economy...

The new policies of keeping boats north of Norfolk until November seems counter-productive, to me... I'd bet a good case could be made for the exposure of boats heading south that late to fall northeasters, etc. might even be greater than to hurricanes over time...

I understand the herd mentality, it's completely natural the way in which it develops... People start making friends and buddy boating, nothing wrong with that, of course... I just think it often overcomes the temptation to linger a spell in a particular spot, or alter one's route, when groupthink overrides the itinerary one would normally choose if sailing alone...

Forgot to mention it before, but the single best boat mod I can recommend for a fall trip down the ICW is the addition of an automotive-style forced-air heater, one of those will hugely improve the quality of life aboard during a trip when most are doing so much motoring, anyway... These units are fairly inexpensive and simple to install, I'm always surprised how few boats making the trip late have bothered to do so...

There's much to be said for heading straight for the Bahamas, but unless one has an extremely favorable weather window, I'd still generally be inclined to make that decision at Beaufort, instead... Boats like mine and that of the original poster, 4 days from the Chesapeake to the Abacos isn't likely to happen. and since he seemed to indicate he wanted to do the Keys before heading to the Bahamas, I think waiting until Beaufort before deciding upon inside vs outside makes better sense, since he'll be staying inshore of the Stream, anyway...


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## bcarli (Aug 4, 2002)

*go offshore*

go offshore


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## xxuxx (Nov 14, 2008)

*Icw*

IMHO The ICW is kinda like Disney World's Junger River ride....especially going through long canals. Look left, look right and you see the canal banks teaming with wild life. There are birds, deer, racoons, possum, snakes, alligators, lions, bears, elephants.......ok ok so there are no elephants but seems like there could be. Go for the ICW at least once....you'll see some kewl stuff.


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## svHyLyte (Nov 13, 2008)

chrisncate said:


> Thank you all so much for the excellent, well written and well thought out replies. I think we will do "the ditch" on the way down next year. It sounds fun, and I think it will be.
> 
> Like everything else in life, my experience will be my own, just like all the positive and negative things I have read about the ICW in the past.
> 
> I look forward to knowing!


For more information on the ICW, take a look at Cruiser's Net


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## LarryandSusanMacDonald (Apr 3, 2005)

Saltwater Suzi and I have traveled the ditch many times - occasionally outside parts of the way, but mostly inside. The inside / outside argument is always mostly opinion - some people hate the tedium of the inside, others like the beauty of the inside. Some hate the outside, because of fear, or, again, tedium (nothing to look at but waves and a distant shoreline).

Whichever_ you_ do depends entirely on what you _want_ to do. Sometimes we have traveled two or three days on the inside while others have waited for weather for days to go outside. Like it has been said above - try the inside at least once. If you have a 'beltway' personality - where getting there as fast as you can is your only goal - then outside is the way to go. (Or a jet plane.)

A lot of people worry about running aground on the inside. We have learned how not to run aground. And we tell you about it on the Frugal Mariner - Intra Coastal Waterway Tips.

We, as well as someone mentioned above, are staying on our boat near Annapolis. If you would like to get together sometime, PM us.

If you decide on the inside, a publication you should have is Skipper Bob's Guide to Anchorages on the ICW. (If you stay at anchor mostly) Or his Guide to Marinas, if you have more money than you need and stay at Marinas every night. You'll meet a lot of power boat people that way.)

Either way, good luck, and enjoy the trip as much as the destination.


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## LarryandSusanMacDonald (Apr 3, 2005)

BTW, it's Intra-coastal, not Inter-Coastal. Inter-Coastal would be from one coast to another - so you would likely be traveling to a foreign country. Like, say, New Jersey.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

chrisncate said:


> Thank you all so much for the excellent, well written and well thought out replies. I think we will do "the ditch" on the way down next year. It sounds fun, and I think it will be.
> 
> Like everything else in life, my experience will be my own, just like all the positive and negative things I have read about the ICW in the past.
> 
> I look forward to knowing!


Chris,
How will you do the ditch with no engine? I think it would be nearly impossible. I sailed from Annapolis stopped in Norfolk and went non-stop to Antigua West Indies. That is the way to do it. Total trip took 3 weeks. With no engine you want to stay as far from land as possible. You head to almost Bermurda and make a right turn, as they say in driving directions "you can't miss it" then head 180 deg, next stop Carribean.
Aloha


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## CaptainForce (Jan 1, 2006)

LarryandSusanMacDonald said:


> ..................A lot of people worry about running aground on the inside. We have learned how not to run aground......................


 'much good advice here from Larry & Susan and it's true,- there are strategies to prevent running aground. We've first traveled the ICW from the Chesapeake to Florida in 1972 and we ran aground 13 times. Every year since 1972 we have run at least a portion of the ICW and we pretty much stopped running aground before we had our first depth sounder (besides a lead line) around 1992. I agree that the timing and current does require an engine. I had not noticed that the original posters were considering this without any motoring,- very difficult and huge time delays! We've had one short polite boarding by the DNR in Georiga over the span of 39 years! We've always found great anchorages; we don't stress with bridges or wakes; we sometimes take two to three months to cruise from Florida to Maine and we never expect to be anywhere except in the best location for the day's weather. Take care and joy, Aythya crew


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

CaptainForce said:


> 'much good advice here from Larry & Susan and it's true,- there are strategies to prevent running aground. We've first traveled the ICW from the Chesapeake to Florida in 1972 and we ran aground 13 times. Every year since 1972 we have run at least a portion of the ICW and we pretty much stopped running aground before we had our first depth sounder (besides a lead line) around 1992. I agree that the timing and current does require an engine. I had not noticed that the original posters were considering this without any motoring,- very difficult and huge time delays! We've had one short polite boarding by the DNR in Georiga over the span of 39 years! We've always found great anchorages; we don't stress with bridges or wakes; we sometimes take two to three months to cruise from Florida to Maine and we never expect to be anywhere except in the best location for the day's weather. Take care and joy, Aythya crew


Never run the inter-coastal (only a few small sections) but I understand there are a lot of draw bridges- pretty sketchy to go through those without an engine.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

LarryandSusanMacDonald said:


> BTW, it's Intra-coastal, not Inter-Coastal. Inter-Coastal would be from one coast to another - so you would likely be traveling to a foreign country. Like, say, New Jersey.


Sorry about last post, grammer is not my forte, I'm an engineer.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

I thought that there were significant portions of the ICW where it's not even legal to sail, and you had to motor?


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

chrisncate said:


> casey1999 said:
> 
> 
> > Never run the inter-coastal (only a few small sections) but I understand there are a lot of draw bridges- pretty sketchy to go through those without an engine.
> ...


Well, good luck with that&#8230; Hopefully, you won't be dealing with one of those ornery bridgetenders in Florida who won't lower their traffic gates until even a boat under power has rolled up their headsail before approaching their bridge&#8230;

Needless to say, when I originally replied to this thread, I had no idea you were going engineless&#8230; That changes everything, probably takes the possibility of doing about 98% of the waterway off the table&#8230;

You'll be seriously constrained as to where you can put in along the coast, as well&#8230; Between the Chesapeake and Charleston, the only places I'd care to enter without an engine would be Beaufort, Wrightsville, Southport, maybe Murrells Inlet, and Winyah Bay&#8230; Still, you'll need very favorable conditions for any entrance north of Charleston&#8230; Some of the sounds between there and the Florida line are certainly do-able, though you'll really have to play the tides&#8230; Once in Florida, your options again become pretty limited - St Mary's, St Augustine, and Ft. Pierce are about it, Palm Beach would be possible, but pretty nerve-wracking under most conditions&#8230; Lauderdale is out of the question, and while Miami might be do-able, I wouldn't try it&#8230;

I certainly admire the pluck of those going engineless, but you certainly pay a price in regards to places you'll bypass&#8230; I love to sail as much as the next guy, but when I think of all the places I'd have never gotten to without my little Perkins, I think I'll keep it&#8230; (grin)


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

As someone who does not do a lot of sailing outside of racing in which using the motor means you have given up 

I can spend a whole day-sail off my mooring in Northport and never make it to the Long island Sound if the tide is in flood and the wind is in its pretty common direction of west 

Your not being realistic about which way the wind blows on much of the ICW how narrow it is or the amount of commercial traffic


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

chrisncate said:


> In any of the places you've been that you feel you could not have visited without your engine, what on earth would you have done had the motor failed you coming in, out, or while you were at those places?
> 
> Relying on a motor to go places (you feel) you absolutely could not go without one seems far more risky and dangerous to me...
> 
> ...


Chris,
This past weekend I anchored over night at Waimea Bay Oahu, Sunday another boat sailed in (in Waimea bay it is illegal to use an engine- must come in anchor and leave under sail only). Sunday evening the other boat and I sailed back to our mooring in Haleiwa. It was a beautiful sail with spinner dolphins riding my bow and my dog keeping lookout (I was single handling the boat) At the enterance to Haleiwa the other boat was well ahead of me and drifted out of the channel and heading towards the reef. There was absolutely no wind with current moving the boat to the reef. The boat hailed me. I asked if one of his crew could go in the water and board my boat to help with the tow line (turned out their engine failed due to fuel problems). I towed them to there dock. At the dock they gave me some beers for my effort (I later gave all but one beer to some fisherman whom caught my run away dog, but that is another story). If I did not come along, they could have dropped anchor and waited for another tow, or call coast guard. I have a Boat US unlimited tow card ($150) a year I will use if I cannot get a tow.

The bottom line to sailing is having back up plans. On a sail boat you should have sail, engine, anchors, radios, epirbs, flares, life jackets, life raft (off-shore) ect ect ect. When one system fails you go to the next, if all fails then your in the water waiting for rescue (you hope). The point is you try to prepare so it does not come to that (being in the water). By ditching your engine you have lost one item on your back up plan.

You know you talk all this about no fear, I know some pro surfers who surf 30foot Hawaiian stlye waves (60 foot face) at Waimea and when they do they have fear of the ocean. It is fear that keeps your keen to your suroundings and it is fear that will allow you, your crew, and your boat to see another day. I think a little fear would do you good. And with fear of the ocean comes respect for the ocean. And with respect comes apreciation.

Aloha


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

chrisncate said:


> In any of the places you've been that you feel you could not have visited without your engine, what on earth would you have done had the motor failed you coming in, out, or while you were at those places?
> 
> Relying on a motor to go places (you feel) you absolutely could not go without one seems far more risky and dangerous to me...
> 
> ...


No question, there is a certain degree of logic to such a point of view&#8230; But at some point one just have to take one's chances with the likelihood of an inopportune mechanical failure, the commercial aviation industry, for example, wouldn't be a viable one if passengers weren't willing to play those odds&#8230;

It's an interesting debate, of course, as to which manner of cruising is "riskier"... I'll stick with having more means of propulsion at my disposal, as opposed to fewer, but that's probably just me...

However, as one who has spent a considerable portion of my life delivering powerboats, that argument doesn't really fly with me, I'm pretty comfortable with the notion of having no alternative means of propulsion, after all&#8230; And, in my experience, I've found the amazing creation of Rudolf Diesel to be substantially more reliable than the wind itself&#8230; (grin)

Moot point for me, anyway - if I couldn't rely on my engine to get me going, I'd never make it away from my dock, much less ever get out into the ocean&#8230;

I think you may be being a bit optimistic about dealing with the bridges and many of the stretches of the ICW under sail&#8230; Obviously, you enjoy the purity of sailing, I would guess you would quickly tire of the exercise, and stay offshore&#8230;


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## NautiG (Apr 23, 2007)

Chris,

I have done most of the icw from the Chesapeake to Florida and I can tell you unequivocally that a lot of it cannot be done under sail power alone. No you do not need an engine. A guy did it at about the same time I did in a kayak. But a lot of the icw is nothing but a ditch with no tides or wind. So a sailboat of your size will not be able to navigate it without some other means of propulsion than sails.

It will also be very difficult for you to navigate through some of the fixed bridges, let alone the bascule bridges. And you will not be able to propel your boat through any locks. I wouldn't be surprised if one or more of the bridge tenders simply closed the bridge on top of your boat as you tried to pass through under sail.



chrisncate said:


> In any of the places you've been that you feel you could not have visited without your engine, what on earth would you have done had the motor failed you coming in, out, or while you were at those places?
> 
> Relying on a motor to go places (you feel) you absolutely could not go without one seems far more risky and dangerous to me...
> 
> ...


The safety device many of us rely on when our engines fail is called an anchor. We deploy it and then either fix our engine or wait for conditions conducive for us to sail to our destination where upon we fix our engine. And of course, if the s*** really hits the fan we rely on Boat US and/or the Coast Guard. But with good planning and luck those last ditch options can usually be avoided.

Good luck with your journey. I admire your moxie.

Scott
Gemini Catamaran Split Decision


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

Lot of time like this






Lot of time like that

Lot of time right after this between 0 and 25 knots up down up down down

Anchor sail Anchor sail Anchor sail


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## mdbee (May 2, 2007)

Many of you have tried to warn Chris about navigating ICW without a practical back up to sails. He seems to not understand that "sailing" in the ICW is not always possible or prudent. 

Perhaps when he is sitting in the channel with his sails limp, with a tug pushing three barges his way, with no way of stopping, reality may set in for him. I pray that no one else is on his boat. There is a pretty good chance that a few parts of his boat will be found, only parts. Sometimes nothing is found. Hell, they may not even know they have hit anything. The front barge will only have a few minor scars, no major damage. At least thats what we see down on the Gulf.

Chris, if nothing else, take a short trip to the ICW and watch traffic for a day in one of the more restricted areas. Better yet, call the local USCG office and run your idea by them. Get their thoughts.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Chris-

It's good to hear that you're not modifying your boat in a manner that precludes re-installing an engine if you change your mind later. It's also good to hear that you know that you'll have to do most or all of your trip along the coast if you go engine-less.

Look, I'm more or less on your side. I hate my engine. I hate running it. I hate the noise and I love nothing better than the silence. I sail off of, and into my dock everytime the opportunity presents itself.

_However_, the first/last 500 yards of my journey is all sharp turns, very narrow passages and shifty, puffy breezes (or no breeze at all!) because of the land features around me. Even I know when to yield to the inevitable. I owe those around me that consideration in the name of safety.

Have you considered a compromise, such as mounting a stern bracket for a 5hp kicker? You could easily stow an outboard of that size in the same space the inboard sat. Are you carrying a dinghy? If the dinghy will use an outboard, it could be the same engine for both purposes.

I'm only talking about using the OB as an emergency means of "getting out of the way", not necessarily transiting the ICW.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

chrisncate said:


> You know, this type of post is sadly so typical of the forums.
> 
> Did you even read anything I wrote? I said clearly in post #39 that I had posted this old thread before we decided to go without an engine, so I wasn't even asking this question based on doing the ICW motorless.
> 
> ...


You also state in post #29 "Meh, that wouldn't worry me in the least. I'd enjoy the challenge of it I suspect." Concerning transiting draw bridges without an engine. This shows lack of experience sailing without an engine, lack of judgement with concern to other boaters, your boat, your crew, the draw bridge tender, motorist who need the bridge down (after you break it with your mast) to get to the other side of river. So it's not just all about you on this. And from what I understand, you have no blue water experience either.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

No motor is fine, as long as one is willing, and able, to go where and when wind and tide dictate, sculling oars notwithstanding. (There was one time I had to spend an extra night at a marina, because even with the motor, I couldn't get off the dock due to the wind.) 

Actually though, having a motor means you have two systems, not one, otherwise you'd be a powerboat. I lost my motor while heading east up the Keys in ESE wind of 20 knots, at 4 in the morning. A situation ripe for disaster, was I not able to roll out my jib and beat off the shore.

Personally, I'd rather have a motor and not use it, than not have one and have to pass up places I'd like to go, when I want to go there. For instance, you can't do the Waccamaw River (unless you're going to turn around and go back out the way you came in) without doing the cut through Myrtle Beach. And that is a beautiful stretch of water, well worth the ugliness of the Myrtle Beach cut.

There are many areas of the ICW that can be sailed, what can be problematic is getting in or out of them.

But let's look at it from an off-shore perspective. Say you get to St Augustine at the end of the day, and the tide is running out and the wind is out of the west, southwest, or southeast? You're not going to scull against that, not there (or much of anywhere else on the East Coast from NC down.) Or, a place like Miami, you're not just dealing with wind, tide and current, but traffic as well. And experience has shown me, that can be a problem, even with a motor.

That's not to say you shouldn't go engineless. I just question whether the value of the satisfaction is more than the limits. But, it's totally your call.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

To a large part, it depends on just what you hope to accomplish in your time on the water. Ideally, time should never be a problem, but that isn't always the case. Medical emergencies, storms, or just making a decent anchorage can all necessitate a need for speed (relatively speaking). As I said though, it's a personal decision.

Did I read you put a 55 gal water tank in place of the motor? That seems like a rather substantial weight increase at one end of the boat.


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## CaptainForce (Jan 1, 2006)

chrisncate said:


> ........................As I see it, you CAN go just about anywhere under sail - the difference (imo) is time frames/time expectations, planning, and ability. Can a pure sailing vessel follow your motor sailor time frames? Of course not. Can it go just about anywhere (with a few exceptions like certain stretches of the ICW) the motorsailor can go with careful planning and forethought? Yes................We are doing it the way we want to do it, and like I said a billion times already - if it doesn't work, it doesn't work. I'll buy a motor if I find I need to. Simple as that. Fair winds everyone


Sure, this is wise and true. Though, "time and tide waits for no man" we can wait for them. Most can't see the value of the patience and skill to persevere. Take care and joy, Aythya crew


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

chrisncate said:


> That particular hypocrisy is no different at all than saying you could never have visited all the places you have visited without your motor, because like I asked the poster who said just that earlier in this thread - what on earth would you do in these "motor only" places if your motor crapped out on you? Wouldn't that be (gasp) _unsafe_?
> 
> It can't be both ways. You can't say on one hand how unsafe it is to be a "sail only" vessel, then say in the same breath that you are willing to venture where you have to totally rely on one single solitary system, a motor. Give me a break.


LOL! Well, for someone who is "sick of people making stupid assumptions about my sailing abilities&#8230;" and so on, you're doing a pretty fair job of doing so about my own, and some of the things I've done with boats&#8230; (grin)

When I think of the many places I would not have seen without the use of an engine, a couple come to mind above all else&#8230; Not because venturing there would have been particularly _dangerous_ to have done so, but rather just would have been so damned _inconvenient_ to attempt, I simply would have given them a miss&#8230;

One would be Guatemala's Lago Izabal and the spectacular, magical passage up the Rio Dulce canyon&#8230;








The other is considerably less dramatic, but no less beautiful a cruising ground - the inland network of rivers and lakes of New Brunswick's St John River&#8230; I enjoyed that area immensely, but going up there involves transiting the famous Reversing Falls at St John, created by the differential between the water level of the river, and some of the highest tides in the world found in the Bay of Fundy&#8230; I'm not saying it would be impossible to sail or scull my 30-footer through the Reversing Falls during one of the two 20-30 minute passage windows that occur daily, but I would bet most of the locals would consider anyone attempting it to be a fool of epic proportions&#8230;








So, get back to us if you ever make it into places such as these without an engine, I'd love to hear how it went&#8230;

I've not been one to argue against going engineless from a safety perspective, I've always had great respect for what sailors like the Pardeys and the Carrs have accomplished under sail alone&#8230; Everything with cruising and boats involves tradeoffs, however, and this one is simply one of those I'm unable and unwilling to make&#8230; There are far more than just "certain stretches of the ICW" that will be off limits to an engineless boat&#8230; IMHO, some of the finest sailing and cruising to be found in North America, for example, is on the Great Lakes&#8230; However, the only way you'll get there without an engine in a boat from Annapolis, is on a truck&#8230; Or, closer to home, I rate the sounds of North Carolina to offer some of the nicest cruising along the entire East Coast, but your options for ever getting in there without an engine are severely limited, and will be extremely risky even in the most favorable conditions&#8230;

As PBzeer mentions above, there are many sections of the ICW that can be navigated under sail alone, and I'm always a bit disappointed more cruisers don't bother to avail themselves of the possibility&#8230; Then again, I'm one of the internet's poster children for ranting about the fact that kroozers don't like sailing, period&#8230; (grin)&#8230; But, as PB rightly says, _getting into_, or back out of, those particular sections without an engine to begin with is the problem, and the prime reason why even sailors as skilled as the Pardeys transit the East coast without having done a single mile of the waterway under their own power, to the best of my knowledge&#8230;



chrisncate said:


> The bottom line is that people who have never tried going engineless themselves seem to find it quite easy to fancy themselves experts on the topic.


Substitute "traveled the ICW" for "tried going engineless" - works for me, as well...


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

JonEisberg said:


> or back out of, those particular sections without an engine to begin with is the problem, and the prime reason why even sailors as skilled as the Pardeys transit the East coast without having done a single mile of the waterway under their own power, to the best of my knowledge&#8230;
> QUOTE]
> 
> How do the Pardey's transit the East Coast if they do not do it under there own power- what power are they using?


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

Chris,
Jon is better then just alright: An Insider's ICW | Cruising World
He's been up and down the east coast more then most of us and there are other articles he wrote for the same sailrag that pertain to the 'ditch' (aka, the ICW).


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

casey1999 said:


> JonEisberg said:
> 
> 
> > or back out of, those particular sections without an engine to begin with is the problem, and the prime reason why even sailors as skilled as the Pardeys transit the East coast without having done a single mile of the waterway under their own power, to the best of my knowledge&#8230;
> ...


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