# Convert Ketch into Sloop?



## mjak42 (May 4, 2007)

As soon as I sell my house in Australia, I will be doing the same as SimonV and going to the U.S to buy a boat, am looking at buying a Morgan 461, but there are only a couple available, and the brokers keep sending me 462 (ketch) which I am not interested in, the 461 & 462 are the same except one is a ketch.
My question is, as there are a lot of 462's available, and any boat I buy I would be looking to refit or update in readiness for full time cruising, could I buy a 462 ketch and remove the mizzen mast, have an in-boom furler fitted and new mainsail, and also convert to cutter rig.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

Mjak42,

In many cases, the main mast on a ketch-rigged boat is stepped farther forward than it is on a sloop-rigged version of the same boat. Also, often times the main mast is not as tall. I cannot speak specifically to how it was done on the Morgan O/I's, but you may end up with an under-canvassed, poorly balanced boat. Do your homework, and good luck.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I'm going to second what John said. If you want a sloop, you're probably best off buying a sloop rigged boat. Re-rigging the boat is very expensive... 

BTW, cutters generally have the mast stepped even further aft than a sloop, and by converting a ketch to a cutter rig, you're moving the sailplan forward by quite a bit, and that will probably lead to serious lee helm issues.


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## mjak42 (May 4, 2007)

Thanks John, I knew the boom would be smaller and the main may not be as tall but was not aware the mast may be stepped further forward, hopefully someone may know, will do my homework, if possible will increase the amount of boats i can look at, as there are only 2 461's in BVI and one in Florida available, but have 9 462's sent to me via broker's.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

I just glanced at a few on Yachtworld. Hard to tell from the photos, but by rough eyeballing it appears the mainmast is in the same location on both the 461 and 462. If so, the mast and probably boom should be longer on the sloop/cutter variant.

Why not consider the ketch? Particularly if you like the boat in most other respects. It certainly does seem that there are more ketches out there, which often suggests the ketch configuration was considered preferable.

That said, your conversion plan may work fine depending on how you use the boat. I have a friend with a Brewer 44 that the original owner order as a ketch, but told them to leave off the mizzen mast. He wanted a smaller mainsail and better bridge clearance, I guess. The boat doesn't point as well as it should (also due to the original owner having specified the shoal draft keel without the normal centerboard that should be encased within), but my friend happily sails up and down the US east coast. He just motorsails whenever the wind is forward of a close reach. 

So maybe you can make it work. Me, I'd keep the mizzen.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

BTW, the mizzen is awfully useful for mounting things like wind generators and radomes.


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## mjak42 (May 4, 2007)

Nothing against Ketches, but they dont do anything for me, never sailed one so can't say anything bad about them, just like the simplicity of a sloop, plus less maintenance and less sail to play around with, am 45 y.o now buy the time our last kid leaves home I will be 50, I raced for many years in my late teens and early 20's, my wife has no sailing experience, but has loved the times spent on a freinds cutter rigged sloop, just want to kick back relax and enjoy cruising when the time comes.
The cheapest 462 is $79k and 461 is $90k so could possibly spend difference on upgrades.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

You'll like the complexity of a ketch in heavy weather, because you can sail better with mizzen and staysail in 40 knots in a ketch than you can with staysail alone in a cutter or storm jib and deeply reefed main in a sloop.

Ketches don't point well, but due to the partitioned nature of the sail plan, you can have more boat with less effort, as each sail is proportionately smaller than a single-masted boat. 

Don't rule out the ketch just yet. Do rule out something called the "triactic stay"...a stupid idea.


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## mjak42 (May 4, 2007)

Valiente, what is a "triactic stay", more I think about it, the more I should sail a ketch first, then make my decision, wife says she likes how there is nothing on the aft deck of a sloop, can walk around, put a bimini. Is there still headroom under the aft boom?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

A triatic stay goes from the top of the main mast to the top of the mizzen mast... and is a really dumb idea, since if you lose one mast, the triatic stay pretty much guarantees that you'll lose the other.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I like my ketch, not only from an aesthetic point of view, but using the mizzen as a steering vane after I lost the hydraulic steering, kept me off a reef a couple years ago in a 55kt blow. At anchor, a reefed mizzen will hold you into the wind. 

Not only that, ketches that have been re-rigged as sloops look funny.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

they are both good..just go sailing ..very little speed dif.in the 2..both have pros & cons.a ketch is a better choice..you see more sloops now beacause "builders save money" by using one mast and all the other concerns to step them on a boat..& the exta rigging required..


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## Robby Barlow (Apr 23, 2006)

mjak,
I feel the same about a ketch as you, don't particularly like them, but where with a yawl conversion can be reasonably easy, with a ketch it either means a major refit and restructuring or changing the dynamics of the boat - neither are very recommendable. Re adjust your budget (no refit = higher purchase price) and invest/wait for the right boat to come on the market.
Either way good luck.


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## Boasun (Feb 10, 2007)

Well if you want to rearrange things on the boat then shift the mizzen mast forward and the main mast aft and have a schooner. Now that may do something for your sense of ascetics.


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## rennisaint (Oct 25, 2007)

If you are thinking of single-handing, you should be looking at going the opposite direction of what you are now. There are traditional pro's and con's to ketch and yawl rigs, and for a most part the con's are a bunch of ballywag.

Myth 1) Because of the ketch's shorter mast and divided sail plan they can't go as fast.

Truth 1) Who cares! Are you entering the Sydney-Hobart to win? Or are you cruising around with a case of rum in search of someone to help you finish it? So the BS about you losing .1 of a knot or whatever is silly. You will probably lose more than that by not trimming everything perfectly, hell I bet you don't even re-tune your running backstays every time you tack. OH yeah, you don't have those, 'cause you don't (and bloody well shouldn't) care. Life's about the journey not who got there first.

Myth 2) Ketchs and Yawls can't point as well upwind

Truth 2) See above. We are talking about 5 maybe 10 degrees. And again, if you wanted to stand watch and have people trimming their balls out all day and night you'd go join a race. To get those extra degrees out of a boat you need to be on the ball.

Myth 3) All that rigging makes life so much more complex

Truth 3) In the middle of a blow is no time to figure out that you cannot handle taking down as big a sail area as you thought by yourself. With a ketch or yawl the sails are much smaller in area (shaving inches from the mast height shaves feet from the sail area). Way easier to handle, so you are more likely to take them down AND PUT THEM UP. And anyway, a cutter rig sucks about twice as much to single hand as a sloop let alone ketch. There as a serious art, or ugliness depending on your experience in the matter to tacking both headsails on a cutter. And again, you don't want to be out there alone when you find this out.

So that's the big three, here are some added benefits.

Hate it when your insists on swinging back and forth at anchor? Throw up a reefed mizzen and she'll point like a hunting dog.

Want to have more fun sailling? Add a mizzen staysail to your sail inventory, they look sweet, everyone will be talking about you, and you'll add a knot or two to your speed and hardly have to work at it.

Need somewhere to mount secondary antennas or a radome?

Oh yeah, and the ladies love the mizzen


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## Robby Barlow (Apr 23, 2006)

rennisaint said:


> Oh yeah, and the ladies love the mizzen


Interesting point you make here, but what exactly do you mean?


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## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

I don't know about ketches ability to point but my Yawl will point to 35* or less apparent. Also, being a Yawl gets the mizzen out of the cockpit. The versatility in a blow is marvelous. The rigs changed more from racing ratings than much of anything else over the years. Sail a ketch/yawl before deciding what ya do or don't like.


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## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

*We love ours*

Charlie I get close to that around 37 or 38 and I have a shoal draft swing keel..And Im no expert trimmer yet..

I agree with every thing Renn said....

I have an all woman crew and the smaller sails really help them..and *ME*

Go sail one before discounting them...Big tall sloops are just the fad now...not better..

OH... PS I easly get 8.5kts in 12 to 15 knt winds

And Who said their not pretty?


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## christyleigh (Dec 17, 2001)

I'm only 2 years into Ketch sailing but I basically second Rennisaint's post to include the Cutter headsail issue. My boat has the deck hardware and mast hardware including the halyard ready and waiting for me to make it a Cutter/Ketch if I so desire to spend a few grand to make tacking harder.  I attached the staysail halyard to the deck hardware to do the best test I could and after the first genoa hang up on it was a simple ...Nope.. not for me.


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## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

Yep, tacking with the forestay and staysail in place can be a bear unless you furl as ya tack across. My forestay is only 24" aft of the headstay so there's not a lot of room to stuff a 135 through. I detach the forestay and un-hank the staysail unless I know it's gonna be heavy weather. It only takes five minutes to rig it all up, preferably while running offwind, unless ya want a bath. The staysail is only 87 sq. ft. of sail so the loss is minimal.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

personally i'm a huge fan of the cutter ketch... sailed on a few and am about to buy one... ... to me it's the ideal rig. roller furling drifter (good up to about 15knts wind), with a removable inner stay. light air days you just loft the drifter and fly... heavier days you set the inner stay and loft a good working jib... and of course the mizzen stay sail code zero as well for those extra windless days.... talk about versatility... running your working jib and a full main and mizzen is plenty for your average sailing days... if things get light you have LOADS more sail to loft and if it gets blowy, plenty of reefs to rein her in and keep her balanced.... on the tacking issue... i would rarely ever run both headsails at the same time... and pretty much only on longer passages where tacking is not expected and your not on a lee shore.


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