# Actual Selling Price



## Lyttlebyrd (Aug 18, 2009)

My wife and I are hunting for a boat in the 33 - 36 range and we're willing to spend a fair amount of money - up to $85,000 (that's CDN folks). But the asking prices for boats seems to be awfully high. I know, there's nothing from stopping me making a low offer. However, I've been reading the boat reviews on Sailnet and almost without fail the owners think their boat is great - and the price they paid is rarely (I've only seen one) given. Apparently, Yachtworld is offering a new service that provides actual selling prices, but it's a service that costs. Why is it that we are so reticent to provide the actual price we paid? We've owned two boats - both of which we used extensively along the BC & Washington coast. A Cascade 29 - homebuilt - we paid $10,000; my wife did not like the boat, I did - but it certainly had its drawbacks, it was a good starter - in the end, we donated the boat to a charity for the tax deduction. Our second was a Santana 30 - we paid $30,000 for it - clean, comfortable, strong, easy to sail, excellent for the two of us and the two young ones (g'children) that we used to drag along. My wife liked this boat, so did I. We probably overpaid for it, but we kept it in good shape and sold it for $29,000 (minus the broker's commission). Anyway, I recommend that people put the actual purchase or selling price in their reviews - surely it would help both buyer's and sellers.
That's my $0.02 (CDN)


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## Garffin (Oct 22, 2009)

I paid 325$ and had a guy the other day try and give 3k for my boat. I would sell it right now for 5k Dan


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Dan
Doubt anyone on Sailnet would give you close to 5k as we know what you paid for it.


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## CaptainForce (Jan 1, 2006)

'looks like the price is right, but give us a better photo. There's a little sailboat on your bow that's blocking our view!


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

That's funny. 
Dan
Best to take a pic without a boat in the background.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

500 dollars BUT im pretty sure this wont help as in your budget you should be able to by a boat in PERFECT condition


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

I think that service is aimed at brokers and surveyors. I was able to get a sight of the prices for a type of boat I was looking at and it was very illuminating. Actual deal prices were much lower than the inflated asking prices I had been seeing. 

Also it was very noticeable that prices had fallen significantly over the last 3 years.


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## mikehoyt (Nov 27, 2000)

Bird

The way I see it the original purchase price has nothing to do with the asking price. As a buyer you should do your own research and know what a boat is worth in good, fair and poor condition. As a seller you should know the same and know which category your boat falls in.

I know this is not everyone's view but these boats belong to the sellers not the potential buyers. They can ask whatever they want for the boat since they own it.

Seriously I think a lot of people are not that anxious to sell so list at top dollar and will sell only if they get close to their asking price. I expect a number of others are always expecting to receive 10% under asking.

In the photos above I am certain the boats were purchased for very low prices but that an awful lot of refurbishment was done. these boats would have moved from "poor" or "fair" to "good" or "above average" categories and their prices would change accordingly.

If the seller is asking too much then look for another boat. I really don't see the problem. 

Mike


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## Lyttlebyrd (Aug 18, 2009)

To Tommays - I checked out you site - that's one heck of a project. Would you do it again, knowing what you know now?
I'm curious about the trailer, is it a rental or do you own it? Boat prices in the East tend to be lower than out West - did you transport the boat yourself?


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## degreeoff (Oct 25, 2009)

Hmph! Well I bought my C-27 1980 for $900 with 3 sails and a running A-4 BUT I have put over $5000 into it last 2 years and that does NOT include all my labor (them $$'s just parts people) I would let it go for $5000.01 and not a penny less!. Blue book is double almost.

Josh


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## Lyttlebyrd (Aug 18, 2009)

To Mikehoyt - I agree that a buyer should know the value of a boat through research. How often do people actually purchase a boat? This will be my third - that's not a lot of practice - and doing research is done how: NADA? BUC? Yachtworld? I happen to know a fellow who bought a Sabre 30 (excellent condition) for $14,000. A check of Yachtworld shows a range from $19K to $50K! NADA and BUC valuations don't seem to match the asking prices, and Yachtworld only shows those. We've got the books from Practical Sailor which do help somewhat and show trends in prices - but my recommendation in Sailnet is for people to say (write) out loud what they paid. It strikes me as a simple way to get accurate information and realistic expectations from both sides. I suspect that people refrain from giving these prices because they don't want others to know in the hope that when it comes time for them to sell, they can expect a higher price.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

Lyttlebyrd said:


> To Tommays - I checked out you site - that's one heck of a project. Would you do it again, knowing what you know now?
> I'm curious about the trailer, is it a rental or do you own it? Boat prices in the East tend to be lower than out West - did you transport the boat yourself?


The trailer is for my J24 and in its case a trailer pays as it stores the boat better and stops the need to be boatyard bound

I wanted a Cal 29 even VS many new boats (i have owned 3 new)and in my search i found IMHP all have the steel beam issue to some extent

I new of all the issues with the boat and allready have the FWC A4 back in good running condition and will pick up the new stainless beam this week

I found one in NC with a brand new diesel and you could tell from the pictures the install was a HACK JOB and the sails on all the east coast boat were 15 years old at best

So i would rather go through the boat and fix things right and end up at 10 to 15 K than pay 10 to 20 K and then still have issues 

BUT i also have the abilty OR know someone that owes me a favor to get things repiared for the cost of materials and dont have to deal with storage costs

The Cal will NEVER look new and i dont really care as as i am through dealing with dinging new boats and dealing with getting my brand new boat fixed


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Lyttlebyrd said:


> ....my recommendation in Sailnet is for people to say (write) out loud what they paid. .... I suspect that people refrain from giving these prices because they don't want others to know in the hope that when it comes time for them to sell, they can expect a higher price.


...or be seen to have been 'taken' and paid way too much.  !

As you can see prices are all over the map - er - chart; condition, brand/model popularity, desperation (or lack of) on the seller's part, unrealistic expectations of same, etc etc....

In the end you need to educate yourself and decide what any particular boat is worth _TO YOU_


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## Lyttlebyrd (Aug 18, 2009)

Yes, Faster, I'm sure that's an element that holds people back from declaring what they paid. I know we paid too much for the Santana - but that boat went everywhere from Barclay Sound up to Namu and my wife was willing to go on board. It was such a pleasant and comfortable boat for her that it solved many of my problems. Hmmmm - should I be looking at another?


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Lyttlebyrd said:


> ... Hmmmm - should I be looking at another?


Well, if you did you'd have a lot of money left over for goodies!

At the money you're looking at, presumably for more coastal cruising in BC/PNW waters you should find plenty of reasonable boats that would provide a little more comfort (though not performance) than the Santana did.

In our club the most common design is probably the Catalina 34/36 line and they seem to provide a lot of comfort and reasonable sailing for the money. We bought our last boat 5 years ago and could not find a decent deal in BC.. all the boats we looked at that we thought would suit us were either overpriced, a mess, or both. In the end we went to Washington state where the selection is much better. Several friends went further afield to Oregon and California.. the advantage of WA is that you can easily bring them home without a truck.

We got what we thought was a decent deal (a 35 footer in great shape landed, taxes& duties paid for just over 40K CDN) when a local Ericson 34 was asking 55K and needed a lot of work. That was when the CDN dollar was worth $.75 US... it's much better today. Importing is a simple process.

For you, in addition to the Catalinas I'd be looking at CS36 (Ts or Merlins), a good C&C 35 mk III, even perhaps a late 80s Hunter (Legend series), the mid to late 80s/early 90s Ericsons... there are others, too, of course, but at 80K something in these lines might be do-able...


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Buying a boat is not like buying stocks and bonds. Logic is pushed aside by emotion to a greater or lesser degree. Buying a washer or fridge is purely a price/feature thing. Buying a boat is something to be excited about.
Having said that you should be aware what is out there. You should look at many boats - not just on Yachtworld but at brokers or wherever they are. After you look at a number of boats you will have a better idea of what the prices are in the market. But except in general terms it doesn't matter much what Tom, Dick, and Harry paid for their boat as boats vary a great deal in condition and equipment (and projects ). What really matters is that after getting a fair idea of the market you know what a given boat, the one you lust for, is worth to you.


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## Jaywalker (Dec 16, 2009)

With all due respect, for a newbie, "What the boat is worth to me" is a useless data point. Other big ticket items, houses and cars, have well-established, though flexible, market prices; boats either don't, or they're obscured some way. Obscure values make for inefficient, non-liquid markets and lead to boats sitting awaiting a new owner for years, I understand. 

There's a Tartan Piper on the Texas coast that looks like it could work for me, but at $36k it's the only one I found in Yachtworld. Without experience, I can't know whether this is worth twice that or half that, so I won't seriously entertain it as my first cruising boat. The lack of transparency will likely drive me to either end of boat pricing to better known boats. I, too, wish there were a way to determine what a knowledgeable person paid and what condition the boat was in.

I do, however, appreciate the support the forum gives when we get close, i.e., "I'm considering a 198x XYZ 31' sloop for daysailing out of Corpus Christi with an occasional night or two onboard for my wife and me. Would that work, do you think? Is the $xx,000 price about right?" I've seen some excellent advice given to that question perhaps a hundred times here, but I don't want to ask it until I'm serious. What would be really helpful is an idea of what boats are bringing so that I can focus my attention on the better deals out there before I waste the forum's time.

Thanks for listening. Rant mode - OFF.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Jaywalker said:


> With all due respect, for a newbie, "What the boat is worth to me" is a useless data point. .


Good point, but in this case the OP is hardly a 'newbie'... You're right, though, and that's where the research, talking to knowledgable people, using forums as you suggested, can all ultimately result in a satisfactory outcome.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

Well

I will disagree with things like houses having a well known value as there largely governed by value in your location and what there selling for NOW


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

Jaywalker said:


> With all due respect, for a newbie, "What the boat is worth to me" is a useless data point. *Other big ticket items, houses* and cars, *have well-established, though flexible, market prices*; boats either don't, or they're obscured some way. Obscure values make for inefficient, non-liquid markets and lead to boats sitting awaiting a new owner for years, I understand.


There are a few million Americans here who aren't nearly as sure that houses have well-established market prices as they were a few years ago.  That is a big part of what got everybody into trouble.


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## Yamsailor (Jun 7, 2006)

Given the state of the economy, I would always offer low-ball offer--especially if it is on a production boat like Hunter or Catalina---there are so many of them out there trying to be off-loaded that eventually some seller will accept an offer close to what is offered. I recently saw a Catalina 42MKII 2006 Repo being offered for 169,000 asking. The bank wants to get rid of it.


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

Lyttlebyrd said:


> My wife and I are hunting for a boat in the 33 - 36 range and we're willing to spend a fair amount of money - up to $85,000 (that's CDN folks)....


Littlebyrd, I have nothing in this argument, I'm not a broker, nor do I have anything to do with the owner/boat rep/etc..., but here's a link to a potentially great boat that performs well, is comfortable, easily sailed by two, and is very very well built... I say it only because we have one are of the opinion that when they're available, there isn't a much better racer/cruiser in the 33-36' size and well within the price range you mentioned:

1987 Express / Alsberg Express Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

There are two currently listed of only 16 made. Sadly, the less expensive listing appears to be a bit overpriced and a possible candidate for project status.

About the 'sold for' price histories for a particular boat, ask your broker for it. I don't know if it's common to share this with the buyer, but they'll have access to this info. What you'll find is that a really great boat will go pretty close to the asking price (10% or less). If there are problems with the survey, it will be considerably different (up to 40% less). Really nothing we didn't already know or suspect, but it does help rationalizing our choices to the degree that any boat purchase can be. 

Cheers!


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

If recent price action in stocks, bonds, homes, etc, are any indication - having price information about the "market" is one of the most toxic pieces of information most buyers can have, it seems to erode their common sense. I think it is much better to just take a look at what you are buying, see what it is worth to *you*, then make an offer on it. What is a camel worth to you ? Probably not nearly as much as it costs. What is a glass of clean tap water worth to you ? Much more than it costs I'm sure.

Edit - "Price is what you pay. Value is what you get." - Warren Buffett


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## Jaywalker (Dec 16, 2009)

Tommays and Wind Magic - again, with respect, there are a few places in the US in which the housing market is not functioning - Detroit, maybe, and parts of California and Florida - but mostly they're functioning. True, housing markets are more localized than boats which are portable, but most people know what their house (or car) is worth. Whether they choose to sell at that price is another matter and doesn't make the housing market "inefficient," per se.

Here's a serious question - I understand from reading SailNet that there are significant numbers of boats that have been for sale for some years. Is that a reflection of the current economy, or is normal? If boats normally move within a couple of months, say, then my argument falls apart. OTOH, if long periods of inactivity are normal, then my argument is buttressed. I'll accept your data because I'm too new at this to have that visibility.

Thanks.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

1. Sailing is on the way DOWN and has been due to the amount of time it takes compared to other things familys do 

Many many people just cant be bothered with the time and work it takes 


2.The current money issues have just made a perfect storm


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

Jaywalker, there are a bunch of variables. 

Is the boat at the brokerage dock or far away? Locally, if there's a boat for sail but it's out on one of the islands, it usually screams, "sure we'll sell for the asking price, but we're just as fine not selling as well." In these cases, the boat is almost always pretty nice, but 10-20% over valued. Your question also depends on the number of boats made vs. number available with the additional factor of perceived quality. There are also interesting annomolies to be found if you know your local market. Another local example of this is Hinckleys for sale on the west coast. Seems they're always underpriced as compared to the northeast, so if you're in the market for that type of boat, there are deals to be had even if you include the expense of shipping. 

Some boats you see on the market are fantastic, well priced, but will only appeal to a very small and knowledgeable set of sailors... this is pretty common with cold molded boats.

Boats with a year's worth of growth on the bottom, crappy old dock lines, mildewed running rigging, etc... rarely move for anything near the asking price if they're within 20% of the average for their particular make and year. Seems like an obvious one, but it's mind blowing to see how many boats fit this description.

There are a few brokerages around that are interesting to follow as you can find patterns of boats that seem to sell well while others die at the dock. Bookmark their sites and check in from time to time taking note of what appears to be moving. Like cars in particular, some move, others just don't.

In general, is it a buyers' market at the moment? Yes, but if you're looking to lowball everything in sight, it'll be a waste of everyone's time if it's a brokerage listing. Lowballing? Try craigslist or Ebay. I'm being serious here as there are indeed deals to be found if you know boats, your ability with repairs, their worth, and the local market. IMHO, there aren't many boats at all that will move within 2 months, and that was even before the economy tanked.


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## Jaywalker (Dec 16, 2009)

puddinlegs, thanks.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

There's another thread on the Gear sub-forum that has morphed into a discussion about price negotiations. You may want to take a look over there:
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-maintenance/60730-could-someone-lend-me-moisture-meter-2.html#post553719


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Yamsailor said:


> Given the state of the economy, I would always offer low-ball offer--especially if it is on a production boat like Hunter or Catalina---there are so many of them out there trying to be off-loaded that eventually some seller will accept an offer close to what is offered. I recently saw a Catalina 42MKII 2006 Repo being offered for 169,000 asking. The bank wants to get rid of it.


Could you share some good links that list bank repo boats? Or do you just have to "know someone" to get tips on what boats are available?


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

These guys sell repo and government seized boats National Liquidators :: Our used boat and yacht auctions Inventory mostly powerboats but some sail.

We looked at a couple in the Ft Lauderdale site without buying. They had one of Bernie Madoffs powerboats for sale there.


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## mikehoyt (Nov 27, 2000)

Is interesting what I read on this forum. It seems that buyers tend to complain that sellers are asking too much. The bottom line is that if the price is too high look elsewhere or make an offer.

Speak to surveyors, research everywhere you can .. and don't expect a cheat book like a black book for cars.

When I look at a boat I look everywhere I can to see what the typical selling/asking price is. When I see one sold I contact the seller to see if they will tell me how much, etc...

For standard boats is pretty easy. the Niagara 26 we used to have was asking 18,500 - 20,000 in our area .. and as low as 12,000 in other areas for boats with issues. The boats asking 20000 were not selling. So starting asking price was 18500 with expectation of 16500. We sold for 16750 and shortly after that the age of the boat, the dollar and other factors took the value of that boat down ....

Our current boat is a J27. The typical asking price for well equipped boats is 20000. The low prices are 13000 - 14000. There are also very high prices but those boats are very very well kept and equipped.

Our curent boat had issues. So I made a low offer. my offer took into account what the boat would be worth in proper condition and the work required to get it there - combined with teh transportation costs to get it home. The seller had the option to turn my offer down or accept. he wanted the boat gone so took the offer. Boat is now worth the typical 20000 but the difference between what we paid and what a well looked after version of the boat is worth is pretty much exactly what it cost to get it there - and does not count my labour.

If I am selling my boat I really don't care what others think it should be worth unless that makes it not sell. I only care how much I get for it because it is mine. If I don't get as much as I want then I still have it to enjoy.

Is very simple - I can set whatever price I want depending on whether I want it to sell or not and how quickly. Is up to me to know its worth if I want to achieve my objectives.

one final point. Most sailboats are old - very old. Black books for cars dont go back more than 7 years. The age of these boats makes the condition of a boat vary much more so than say a three year old car as you go from one example to another. This affects the price a lot.

Just go look at a 25 year old boat that has been lavished and babied and then go look at one that has been neglected. The price should be vastly different on the two.

My rant is iover

Have a great holiday everyone and cross your fingers for lots of boat toys and goodies!

Mike


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

There are a number of reasons I think it is counter-productive to use the prevailing price of any asset to decide what you are going to offer, but I'd like to take a shot at explaining at least one or two of them.

For one thing used boat prices are based at least in some small way on what new boat prices are, and new boat prices are driven not by any reality of what it costs to produce them but instead by how much people have to spend. It is no accident that new boat prices (and sizes) have gone up at a steady pace as people can afford bigger and more expensive boats during the past 20 years. It is also no coincidence that the price of a new boat is about the same as the price of a new RV, and that is true whether you look 20 years ago or now. Both are priced at numbers that marketing folks have spent untold amounts of time researching and it has everything to do with just how much pain a buyer is willing to suffer to get the RV or boat based on what the average person can afford. What I'm saying here is that for the most part the price is a fiction to begin with, and it is better to just forget what the marketing people think and figure out what you think.

Another reason I don't like the idea of using prevailing price is that the prevailing price is based on the buying habits of the average buyer, and the average buyer has a debt-to-income ratio that is out of sync with anything you could consider reasonable, it is historically very high, with huge amounts of revolving debt, etc. The average buyer in the United States is willing to take on unhealthy amounts of debt to get whatever it is that they want today, do you really want to base your own bid price so that it competes directly with people who will sell themselves into debt slavery to get what they want ?

For those reasons and many more I think it is best to forget what everybody else is doing and figure out what is right for you. Maybe that means making a series of bids that is never high enough to get a boat, or maybe you'll get one on the first try, who knows. But whatever happens at least you know it is a price that you are willing to pay and not just going along with the shared delusion that is the prevailing price. Afterall, why would you assume that other people know more about what you should pay for something than you do ? One CNN poll found that 37% of people polled believe space aliens have contacted the U.S. government and that 50% believe in alien abduction. Do you really want these people deciding how much you are going to pay for a boat ?


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## Lyttlebyrd (Aug 18, 2009)

Hi Mike:
You are correct in all that you say. My hope is to enter a negotiation well-armed. If a buyer invests a lot of time in researching models and prices - looking at boats and finally narrows it down to, say 5 contenders - then there's already a connection to each of the boats - an investment of time and interest. The willingness to walk away is tough to adhere to - as one broker said: "Once the blood is up, it's difficult to turn away." You seem to be able to hold on to your objectivity. I wish I could. When we bought our Santana - I had only looked at 5 or 6 boats - I know we paid a premium - but in the end it was worth it - we became friends with the seller - and the boat took us to so many places in a style my wife enjoyed. 
I know there are always other boats coming along but I don't understand why it is that a seller - once he has made that often difficult decision to sell the boat - is still prepared to wait for months with an unreasonably high price. The great good fortune for a buyer is that there are so many boats for sale - the unfortunate thing is that most of them are in California. So boats up here in the Great White North tend to be over-priced. There's an '88 Beneteau 350 for sale in Oregon for $50K - but the same boat back in Michigan is asking $65 - none in Canada. There's no pictures yet for the one in Ore. But I'm interested. 
Lyttlebyrd


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Lyttlebyrd said:


> But the asking prices for boats seems to be awfully high.


I don't understand what you mean. The price of used boats fall some 30% to 40% since the economic crisis. Never been so low. Some still have the boats at the "old price" and they don't sell them. But others are selling at current price market. if you follow the market you will see that lots of boats have been lowering prices, a lot. Some say that prices have hit the bottom and that they will recover, bit by bit.

Regards and have a nice Christmas and a good year.

Paulo


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## Svletitgo (Dec 18, 2009)

*Soldboat.com*

It's been discuss on other thread, any good broker will print you a listing of the same boat in the area, that have sold recently from the database of Yacthworld.com.

Just need to ask the right broker.


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## Yamsailor (Jun 7, 2006)

PCP said:


> I don't understand what you mean. The price of used boats fall some 30% to 40% since the economic crisis. Never been so low. Some still have the boats at the "old price" and they don't sell them. But others are selling at current price market. if you follow the market you will see that lots of boats have been lowering prices, a lot. Some say that prices have hit the bottom and that they will recover, bit by bit.
> 
> Regards and have a nice Christmas and a good year.
> 
> Paulo


I am not sure about that..I know someone who was looking to buy a used (2007) 38 footer, he was able to purchase a brand new 40 footer (same manufacturer) for the same price.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

2007 isn't really an "older boat" though. And the 2 year old boat probably had extra equipment installed to allow for. At 2 yrs old it has value.


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## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

ok, lets try to clear up this "greedy, overpriced sellers" thing. Its been covered to death, a quick search of the forums here would have borne that out. 
Its rather simple really. 
Another person has the "chrome plated tittlator" that you wanna buy. Note. They own it. Another note. You don't. 
They... don't frickin' have to sell it to you unless they get the price thy're askin' fer it. 
Could be that the owner has told the SO. "OK, I'll sell the boat"... uh-huh. right. Thats just one reason, there are a million more. And almost every one has NOTHING to do the "value" or "what the last 6 on yachtworld" went for. 
It is "what the market will bare" environment, and no matter how many spreadsheets you make, no matter that his frogbobber 41 is "worth" 20k, and he's askin' 40k, no matter what the justification either party is using...
the price is what it is. Make a fair offer, you might just be the guy a couple of decades down the road that a newbie comes up to and says... "I'll give you a box of ********, and a can full of nuttin' for your boat"

Now do you see why I'm gone for a monh at a time?


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Lyttlebyrd, here in the US there are three questions you never ask another man. What is his real salary or income, what is the real length of his erect [censored], and whether his wife has breast implants.

Y'all have the same traditions up in Canada? Because that's part and parcel of why you never ask "what did you pay for that boat?" and why you'll rarely if ever get the straight answer to it.

You don't like the price? Make a counteroffer and move on. You want to know actual selling prices? Then you compete with the BUC Book, which has always been SOLD to the TRADE. No surprises there, just that's the way things are done in the US.

Oh, and don't ask question #2 in millimeters, we use inches down here.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

wind_magic said:


> There are a number of reasons I think it is counter-productive to use the prevailing price of any asset to decide what you are going to offer, but I'd like to take a shot at explaining at least one or two of them.
> 
> For one thing used boat prices are based at least in some small way on what new boat prices are, and new boat prices are driven not by any reality of what it costs to produce them but instead by how much people have to spend....What I'm saying here is that for the most part the price is a fiction to begin with, and it is better to just forget what the marketing people think and figure out what you think.
> 
> Another reason I don't like the idea of using prevailing price is that the prevailing price is based on the buying habits of the average buyer, and the average buyer has a debt-to-income ratio that is out of sync with anything you could consider reasonable, it is historically very high, with huge amounts of revolving debt, etc....


I appreciate everyone's opinions here - even ones I disagree with - so in the spirit of Christmas, please don't take my disagreement personally. But just for the sake of keeping the discussion lively, I will express my disagreement with your statements. Prevailing price is about the only good data to go on - without it you only have speculation and emotion, two very dangerous things when buying a boat.

Regardless of whether you think Americans are over-leveraged, that environment sets the market here, although that bubble is clearly deflating.

In terms of figuring what price is "right for you," prevailing price is very important. You can get a good idea what the full range is that has been paid recently, recognizing that there will always be a lot of noise in the data due to variability in condition, options, buyer/seller motivation, etc. But it is a range. Once you narrow down your choices you have the option of meeting the sellers' demands (because it is his boat, as many here keep reminding us), or buying nothing and waiting to see what else comes on the market. Knowing how the current sellers' expectations match up with past prevailing prices can help significantly in deciding whether to pass on everything currently for sale, or cut the best deal you can on the existing inventory. in other words, take prevailing prices "with a grain of salt," but "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater."

I think you are totally wrong to state that the price of new boats has nothing to do with the cost of manufacture. In a free-market economy they are intimately connected over the long term. If a frenzy of buyers created demand that existing manufacturers cannot keep up with (hasn't happened in the recent past, and not likely in the near future), prices and profit margins would go up. But those fat profit margins would only be temporary, because the profit margins will attract more boat builders into the business until supply catches up with demand, competition would drive prices down to reasonable profit margins, and supply and demand would come into equilibrium at a profit margin that is less than the boat builders would ideally want, but they are willing to live with. (That's why manufacturers of all types will always complain about their profit margins.) This is Economics 101 stuff.

For the foreseeable future we are more likely to see the opposite of this - low demand and overcapacity cause boat builders to go bankrupt or consolidate, leading to less capacity that eventually "stops the bleeding" on profit margins.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

RhythmDoctor
If you're looking for a Chevrolet type product (Catalina, Hunter and others) where there are hundreds made of each model and many for sale at any one time you can research prices pretty effectively. As an example there are currently 87 Catalina 34 on Yachtworld at prices from 34,900 for an 86 model to 68,599 for an 89 model. Most are asking from 40 to 50k. 
But if you're looking for a less common boat the theory doesn't work as well. The more premium boats are built in lesser numbers and while research might work for a Mercedes it won't work as well for a boat where only small numbers are available at a given time. For example if you're looking at an Alberg 37 there are currently 5 available on Yachtworld at prices from 32,900 to 68,500. With the smaller number and wide asking price range they have to be compared to other comparably equipped boats in similar condition and not as much to prices of previously sold Alberg 37 of which there might be very few. And some brands will not have as many as 5 to choose from at any time. There are many boats for sale that are one of a kind in North America. The farther you get from run of the mill boats the harder it is to research prices.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Brian - I agree with everything you said. The validity of comparables goes down with smaller statistical samples, and eventually gets so small that it is meaningless. My mind is calibrated on production boats, since that is what I am shopping for right now.


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## eMKay (Aug 18, 2007)

I just put an offer on a boat that is 70% of asking price, this boat needs some work. That's all I'll say for now as I have not heard back, but this I believe is typical.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

eMKay
That sounds like it makes sense. Was it priced taking the needed work into account to start with?


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## Maverick1958 (Nov 30, 2009)

I'm with Degreeoff. I got my Helsen 22 for a song. It is currently being fully restored (by me) to a level that FAR exceeds its original show room condition. Most of these boats go for as little as $500 to as much as $3000. I would not consider letting mine go for a penny under $5000. Hell it even has a brand new custom trailer! Most importantly It is NOT for sale. So don't ask!


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## eMKay (Aug 18, 2007)

mitiempo said:


> eMKay
> That sounds like it makes sense. Was it priced taking the needed work into account to start with?


Not really, the broker stated the price reflects the condition, and was already discounted $1000 before I made my offer. My offer reflects what I found that was not mentioned by the broker. I added up what it will cost me in parts and materials to get the boat to reasonable advertised condition. If I had included labor costs into the total my offer would have been $0


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

eMKay
You really can't figure labour in at a dollar cost on many boats under 30' or so and make the numbers work. Even if one were to get a boat free and have to pay yard labor rates to bring it to a reasonable condition it wouldn't make sense. The Owner's groups like Tartan 27, Plastic Classic Forum, and many individual blogs are virtually all owner labor. But a knowledgeable and capable owner probably does a better job than a lot of yards as well. Besides you end up knowing the boat better and it's fun.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

There are four variables in figuring the value of any boat. "The value of any specific boat (or anything) is only determined after a specific seller and a specific buyer agree to a specific price at a specific time. Changing any one of these can affect the price dramatically."

I also recognize that boat buying can be an emotional process. For that reason I do everything that I can to minimize the emotional aspect. Contrary to some of the previous authors in this thread, I believe that a boat IS a commodity; you buy them, you sell them, and if you don't like this one, there are others available. Like used cars, one of the biggest variables is condition.

One broker publishes the selling price of the boats that he sells. SOLD Yachts (Warren Trafton SYRI)

NADA and BUC also offer a "Free Boat Valuation Service." I feel that NADA values are typically lower than actual selling prices, and BUC is closer to reality. Be careful with BUC though, it only allows you three value inquiries in a three month time window. If you want to preform more inquiries, you have to pay for their service.

I have searched Yachtworld.com, free-sailboat-listings.com (searches craigslist), sailboatlistings.com, and even eBay to see boats currently available for sale, and asking prices, I try to narrow my dream list to one or two listings of interest. I then look at the three resources above (NADA/BUC/Warrentraftonsyri) to get a feel for the market for the particular year, make and model of the boats that I am interested in. I also contact the broker/owner of the boat to arrange an inspection.

Because my list of boats has been narrowed down to 3 models from 1 manufacturer, I have usually been more knowledgeable about the market than the person showing the boat. The thread on boat inspection trip tips covers what I am looking for in detail.

After I view a boat, I have started to send the broker/owner a detailed report on what I have seen. I also let the owner/broker know what I am thinking about the boat's value. If we are within 20%, the conversation goes further. If not, it doesn't.

Because I am so analytical, this is probably why I have been looking for almost 3 years. I have no regrets about not buying any of the boats that I have seen. If you look through some of my past posts, you will see that there have been issues with all of them, and I don't think that I have missed any opportunities. I am not looking to own someone else's problem. If there is one thing that I have learned in my search it is that there will always be another boat.


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## ChrisNicoles (Dec 28, 2009)

I'm a newbie and looking to buy. The info on this forum has been really helpful. I want to buy something for a investment as well as getting some enjoyment out of it.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Chris
Boats are not an investment in dollar terms. They're an investment in pleasure but you very rarely get your money back when you sell. I did sell a boat for what I paid for it 2 years later about 38 years ago but that is the exception. Welcome to Sailnet.


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## SeaStrutter (Oct 10, 2006)

As a Broker who subscribes to the YachtWorld MLS, I have access to the "Soldboats.com" database. I can search for year/make/geographic area, etc, etc. When a broker sells any vessel that has been listed on Yachtworld, they will be prompted to enter a selling price. As such, the database is quite robust, and not only can we see asking/selling prices, we can see how long the vessel was on the market, when listed/sold, and even pull up an archive of each listing to see the full details and photos. 

I can't imagine putting an offer in on a vessel without knowing what that type of vessel has been selling for.

Please feel free to send me the details of the vessel in question and I will pull a report for you.


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## eMKay (Aug 18, 2007)

To update what I said before, the deal on my boat is done. The seller countered, and the price we agreed on is 78% of asking price, or 68% of the original asking price.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

ChrisNicoles said:


> I'm a newbie and looking to buy. The info on this forum has been really helpful. I want to buy something for a investment as well as getting some enjoyment out of it.


I would recommend pork belly futures instead. One lot is only 20 ton and all you need is a big freezer. 

If you do figure out the sailboat as an investment plan by all means write a book I would definitely buy it.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

eherlihy said:


> There are four variables in figuring the value of any boat.
> 
> Because I am so analytical, this is probably why I have been looking for almost 3 years.


After reading your post I just came up with a fifth variable.
How long you are willing to go shopping.

Lets take two extremes.
1. You go to one broker tell him how much money you want to spend and buy the first boat he recommends. You are sailing within 24 hours.
2. You shop for 35 years, find the perfect boat and die of heart failure the first week.

The goal is not to find a boat that has no problems. They all have problems and if you can't find a problem you didn't look hard enough.
The goal is to sail one for a while then sell it before the problem becomes obvious so it's the next owners problem.

I'll give you two examples of stuff you will probably miss in a survey.

1. PO had some damage to the bottom of the mast so he cut it down and had the sails re-cut.
2. Something happened, we don't know what but the hull had a layer of black, almost tar like substance over several square feet of the hull about midway in the layup. The only way it could be discovered would be with a core sample.

PS
I love the analytical approach. I'm doing the same thing you are. I just suspect that I better really, really enjoy the shopping process because I have no illusions that I'll find a boat with no problems.

One thing I'm pretty sure of is that if you are looking to find a reason to not buy a particular boat you will always find a reason. You said it yourself, there is always another boat that may be a better deal, always.


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## jjns (Jul 8, 2007)

The only thing that determines what my boat is worth, is what someone is willing to pay me, when I choose to sell it.
What I paid, whether too little or too much, is immaterial.
Used boats vary in condition and equipment so wildly that 'recent price paid' is of little value.


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## sealover (Jun 27, 2009)

I use ebaymotors "view completed listings" to see what cars have sold for. Probably not a lot of big boats on there but it's free. You just have to be an ebay member, and logged in. And I paid $800 for a Yamaha 4 horse and a trailer that just happened to have a really nice but old 17' sailboat on it.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Boat buying as an investment...A new opportunity for Bernie Madoff!

Seriously, about all you can do is purchase a popular model, so there is a good resale market for it, and keep it in top shape with a lot of maintenance and a documented maintenance log, so it resells for top dollar. Almost everyone, every boat, depreciates on every sale, although I know at least one fellow who has been savvy enough (and lucky enough) to buy low and sell high, actually making a slim profit on the purchase price. Emphasis on SLIM profit, way less than the most conservative bonds would get you, ignoring the time and effort of keeping it in top condition.


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## Lyttlebyrd (Aug 18, 2009)

Yesterday, I dragged my better half off to Bellingham, Wa. (we live in the interior of BC) to look at a Pearson 33. Nice boat - in the process of having some repair work done to the keel bolts - photos on the internet were great - once on board - no dice. The broker was excellent - gave us all sorts of technical info based on a survey and oil analysis - and also looked up ACTUAL SELLING PRICES on Yachtworld for us which indicated a difference in asking/selling prices which ranged from 5% to about 20%. Naturally, the greatest difference fell in years when it was a buyer's market which apparently is now. Although the Pearson was not our style - he showed us a couple more boats (more expensive) - a Hunter 35 and a Tartan 35 - both outside our budget, but the Hunter was very impressive. He also took the time to point out differences between the two boats in elements of construction that we might not have considered - cleat size & arrangement, anchor stowage, provisions to allow water from the decks, etc. No pressure, very nice fellow - and another couple came in as we were leaving to look at the Pearson. I was surprised at the wide variation in the prices for Pearsons of comparable vintage.
We also looked at a San Juan 34 - which I liked - but my wife did not.
JJNS seems to have hit the nail on the head.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

davidpm said:


> After reading your post I just came up with a fifth variable.
> How long you are willing to go shopping.


Well, I was laid off over a year ago, so I'm in no great hurry. (If anyone reading this is looking for someone with over 20 years experience in "high-tech" [hardware/software/networking/storage] sales and training, or an interest and ability in Marine electronics, please PM me) 


> Lets take two extremes.
> 1. You go to one broker tell him how much money you want to spend and buy the first boat he recommends. You are sailing within 24 hours.


If I did that I _would _die of a heart attack. You should see some of the crap that brokers have shown me ... Badly corroded keel bolts, saturated and delaminated plywood core decks, hulls deformed from impact... I could go on... (look through some of my past posts for some of the horror stories)


> 2. You shop for 35 years, find the perfect boat and die of heart failure the first week.


This may sound corny, but it reminds me of a quote from The Last Samurai - "A perfect blossom. You could spend your whole life searching for one, and it would not be a life wasted." 

That said, I am not looking for the perfect boat. I am looking for a production boat, that has been well maintained, or one in which the owner has sufficiently discounted the boat to allow me to bring it back up to snuff. I am not looking to own someone else's problem.

I think that many of these boats have been let go, because the owners either didn't know how to do the work, or were too lazy. Instead they wrote a check to a boatyard that did a "slap-it-together, and get-paid job". Have you ever read Zen and the art of Motorcycle Mechanics? I do all my own work on my bike (and know it inside and out) because I CARE about the bike, and know that it will take care of me if I maintain it. That's the kind of boat that I'm looking for.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

eMKay said:


> To update what I said before, the deal on my boat is done. The seller countered, and the price we agreed on is ... 68% of the original asking price.


On a French boat magazine on an article about asking price and selling price they say that actually on the French market selling price is 40% less than average asking price. It seems it is not very different in the US.


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## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

Lyttlebyrd said:


> Yesterday, I dragged my better half off to Bellingham, Wa. (we live in the interior of BC) to look at a Pearson 33. Nice boat - in the process of having some repair work done to the keel bolts - photos on the internet were great - once on board - no dice. The broker was excellent - gave us all sorts of technical info based on a survey and oil analysis - and also looked up ACTUAL SELLING PRICES on Yachtworld for us which indicated a difference in asking/selling prices which ranged from 5% to about 20%. Naturally, the greatest difference fell in years when it was a buyer's market which apparently is now. Although the Pearson was not our style - he showed us a couple more boats (more expensive) - a Hunter 35 and a Tartan 35 - both outside our budget, but the Hunter was very impressive. He also took the time to point out differences between the two boats in elements of construction that we might not have considered - cleat size & arrangement, anchor stowage, provisions to allow water from the decks, etc. No pressure, very nice fellow - and another couple came in as we were leaving to look at the Pearson. I was surprised at the wide variation in the prices for Pearsons of comparable vintage.
> We also looked at a San Juan 34 - which I liked - but my wife did not.
> JJNS seems to have hit the nail on the head.


I think you're getting a good idea of the variety of boats that are out there, and the range of pricing
Looking at a lot of boats, and builders gives you a good idea of what you like and don't like. I think, though, at some point, you'll want to narrow your search. There's quite a bit of difference between..Hunters, Catalinas and say, Tartans and Pearsons....or my boat a Sabre...

Going back to your original budget, I don't know if it has been mentioned; but I might reserve a portion of your boat buying budget, for the repairs, or improvements that you'll surely want to make. If your budget is $85,000,
setting at least $10,000 aside..maybe more...would be prudent in my mind, unless you have already factored that in. IF not..I'd think your boat buying budget should be more in the 60 to 70 k range...which would still get you alot of boat, and money left for improvements.....alot of these boats are up for sale...for various reasons, but often because the sails need replacing, the Hull needs to be barrier coated, the Standing Rigging needs replacing etc etc..and the seller either wants out...or they're buying up..

If you aren't willing to do those kinds of things, then I'd make sure they have been done... do you really want to spend 85,000..and get 20 year old sails..and cushions...? ( assuming everything else is sound )

As far as the Value, of a boat.....I never purchased a boat, wondering what I would be able to sell it for.....nor cared much about what the seller paid for it....I evaluate what I believe is a reasonable price based on my best knowledge of the market, and make an offer.... if I get the boat I wanted then the value to me is established by how much enjoyment I get out of it, not whether the guy in the next slip got a better deal...

I hear people talk about losing money in their homes..based on what the 
" Market" is doing today.... To me, if you've purchased the home you wanted...and you can afford it , and you're living in it, and using it to your enjoyment....then that's what matters...there's value..in that.

If you buy and sell boats or homes every few years..then I suppose all the market studies matter.....

I was lucky...I sold my 1st boat, for exactly what I paid for it, and had 7 years of great use on it....I'm 5 years into this one and planning on many more years of use....I'll never get the money out of it that I paid for it and invested into it....but that's not what I bought it for...
There are lots of ways to lose money...casinos, stock market, etc..

I have never once thought, while I'm out sailing..."oh, my boat is losing money". Probably, because I am emotionally attached!...lol...


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Lyttlebyrd said:


> Yesterday, I dragged my better half off to Bellingham, Wa. .....


Sounds like it was a decent day, anyhow... despite the drive. You'll have more to consider now for your next trip..
Happy New Year, btw!


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## NCC320 (Dec 23, 2008)

When you're shopping for a boat, don't expect to get good boats in good condition at 40% off listing price. A lot of us who are selling boats have done a fair amount of study as to what the boat is worth and that's what it's listed at. My 2001 Catalina 22 is well equipped, needs only a new battery,which I will provide, so my price is realisticaly placed at the boat's value. Don't waste my time and yours chasing around with lots of questions and inspections. If you want the boat, you have to pay a fair price....and if no one is willing to do that, it's ok. After all, I don't have to sell the boat. Also, if you are getting such deep discounts, think carefully about the portion of that discount that you're going to have to put back into the boat to make it satisfactory. While you spend a year or so trying to bring that discounted boat back to life, the buyer of my boat (and other boats in similar condition) will be sailing. I recently read about a couple that decided they wanted to go cruising but couldn't find a boat to their standards, so they decided to build it themselves. They just finished the boat, 19 years later. It's a nice boat (50') with $500K invested. But wouldn't it have made more sense to buy one thats already built and in good condition and then go sailing sooner?


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

I just got the check for my J24 it sold for 100% of the asking price in DECEMBER to the second person who looked at it.

I had to deal with plenty of people who did NO research on J24 values and the costs of all those little things that WORK on my boat










NOT all the 1981 boats are in remotely the same condition










And there were people under the delusion that the asking price for some beater boat somehow had anything to do with other boats


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

eherlihy said:


> Have you ever read Zen and the art of Motorcycle Mechanics?


I did one of my favorite.
And good luck on your search.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Good book...but motorcycles sure have changed, haven't they?


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

hellosailor said:


> Good book...but motorcycles sure have changed, haven't they?


Yeah,

Here is a pic of my first street bike (sold last summer after owning it for 31 years), a '77 RD400
Air cooled, 2 cyl, 2 stroke, 398CC, kick start - very simple to work on.








This pic was taken May '09.

Here is my current bike (which I'm considering selling), an '02 ST1100
Water cooled, V4, 1085CC - somewhere under lots of plastic.









Sorry  
Now, back to *SAILBOATS*


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## eMKay (Aug 18, 2007)

NCC320 said:


> When you're shopping for a boat, don't expect to get good boats in good condition at 40% off listing price. A lot of us who are selling boats have done a fair amount of study as to what the boat is worth and that's what it's listed at. My 2001 Catalina 22 is well equipped, needs only a new battery,which I will provide, so my price is realisticaly placed at the boat's value. Don't waste my time and yours chasing around with lots of questions and inspections. If you want the boat, you have to pay a fair price....and if no one is willing to do that, it's ok. After all, I don't have to sell the boat. Also, if you are getting such deep discounts, think carefully about the portion of that discount that you're going to have to put back into the boat to make it satisfactory. While you spend a year or so trying to bring that discounted boat back to life, the buyer of my boat (and other boats in similar condition) will be sailing. I recently read about a couple that decided they wanted to go cruising but couldn't find a boat to their standards, so they decided to build it themselves. They just finished the boat, 19 years later. It's a nice boat (50') with $500K invested. But wouldn't it have made more sense to buy one thats already built and in good condition and then go sailing sooner?


I agree with this. I got mine cheap because it needed work, it was a choice of financing a boat that needs no work, or paying cash for one that does, I have going into debt for anything so I paid cash. If I could afford to pay cash for a nicer boat I would have. I sold my O'day for close to asking price, it needs very little work (no work to sail). Tommays boat (congrats BTW!) is similar, needs nothing, so no huge discount needed


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

NCC320 said:


> A lot of us who are selling boats have done a fair amount of study as to what the boat is worth and that's what it's listed at.


I'm going to have to disagree with the "a lot" part. Obviously this is what you've done. Fine. Obviously there are some boats out there that are in excellent condition and need virtually nothing done to them. The plain fact of the matter is, though, that the overwhelming majority of boats that I have seen for sale (I would estimate in the neighborhood of 80% or more) need some fairly significant work. As a previous poster mentioned, in a lot of cases these are boats that need new sails, new running rigging, perhaps new standing rigging, interior work, whatever... and the current owner has simply decided to sell rather than put in the time and money to get the boat into bristol condition again.

Some of these sellers realize that their boats need work and price them accordingly, but the majority are asking a price comparable to what yours--in good condition and needing no work--should go for. These are the boats that will sit on the market for a year or more and eventually sell for 40% less than the original asking price. Or maybe they just won't sell at all. Amazing to me how many times I've seen ads from people who say "need to sell right away, bring any offer!" and then when you make them a reasonable offer for their boat in need of much work, they get huffy and act as if you're trying to cheat them. Fine. I can walk away from an unrealistic seller any day of the week.



NCC320 said:


> While you spend a year or so trying to bring that discounted boat back to life, the buyer of my boat (and other boats in similar condition) will be sailing.


True, but with judicious shopping, and a little bit of sweat equity, especially in today's market, there is a good chance that a buyer can end up with a boat just as good as yours for less money. He'll have to delay his sailing, and he'll have to work on the boat himself, but if money is a serious object that may be the best option. And, honestly, I don't think that God subtracts time spent working on a boat from our lives, does he? Well, he shouldn't!



NCC320 said:


> I recently read about a couple that decided they wanted to go cruising but couldn't find a boat to their standards, so they decided to build it themselves. They just finished the boat, 19 years later. It's a nice boat (50') with $500K invested. But wouldn't it have made more sense to buy one thats already built and in good condition and then go sailing sooner?


That would make more sense to me. Obviously it would make more sense to you. Maybe to them it made more sense to end up with exactly the boat that they wanted, built to exactly the standards they demand. Different strokes for different folks. I certainly wouldn't second-guess their decision to spend 19 years building a boat, even though I wouldn't do it myself.

The bottom line is that there are a lot of boats out there, and a lot of options for the potential boat buyer/owner. There are barely floating derelicts, pristine boats ready to toss off the lines and go, and everything in between. Each of us has to decide for ourselves what it is that we want, how much we can spend, what it is that we can or cannot do without, and go from there.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

I agree with the previous post that 80% of the boats out there are below par in terms of maintenance, yet their owners are asking top dollar for them.

There are other instances where the owners are just dreamers (Ex - and I'm going to get specific here - There is a 1990 Pearson 36 for sale in Mattapoisett Ma, and another one in Scituate. *Both boats have been on the market for over 4 years!*- The prices have dropped from the upper 90K range to the high eighties. NADA (admittedly lower than others) says that this boat would be worth $47,950. So, lets say they're impeccable. They should sell for $60K-$70K. I don't know if the owners will ever read these words but; Dudes, don't you think that the fact that you are so out of line with similar boats might have something to do with why they haven't sold yet? I feel bad for your brokers.)



denverd0n said:


> > Originally Posted by NCC320
> > I recently read about a couple that decided they wanted to go cruising but couldn't find a boat to their standards, so they decided to build it themselves. They just finished the boat, 19 years later. It's a nice boat (50') with $500K invested. But wouldn't it have made more sense to buy one thats already built and in good condition and then go sailing sooner?
> 
> 
> That would make more sense to me. Obviously it would make more sense to you. Maybe to them it made more sense to end up with exactly the boat that they wanted, built to exactly the standards they demand. Different strokes for different folks. I certainly wouldn't second-guess their decision to spend 19 years building a boat, even though I wouldn't do it myself.


Bob Kingsland's 50' steel cutter, Restless, has been under construction for 28 years from the day the keel was laid in May 1979 until first launched on June 16, 2007- and she's still not finished. Only Bob and his accountants know how much money has been poured into her. However, the boat is a labor of love, and a work of art. Learn about her here S/V Restless


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## Lyttlebyrd (Aug 18, 2009)

"Jerry? I don't know....." maybe you'll remember the quote from Seinfeld. I was reading a response from Faster (I believe) earlier in this thread that mentioned Craigslist as a source - so off I went to the Seattle listings - there I found a Cape George Cutter ('75) for $155K. OK, beautiful boat well maintained - lots of stuff - but there are 3 others that range from 60K to 99K which are also nice vessels. The seller of the expensive boat is up front saying this boat is appealing to a certain type of buyer ...... 
NCC320 mentions that he doesn't want to have his time wasted - and I totally agree - but how can a buyer investigate his possibilities without asking questions and poking around to find out whether he should go to a more serious level? I suppose that's the job that we saddle with brokers. Some of my most enjoyable times have been pulling into a dock and after chores are done - walking the docks to yak with other boat owners. I have not yet encountered one who did not want to respond. Everyone - from a 100+ foot aluminum thing in Big Bay near the Yaculta rapids to a fellow sailing a beautiful homemade kayak in Namu BC (that was the artist Stewart Marshall). Actually, there was a big boat in Neah Bay (80+ ft) that was somewhat snooty - perhaps because I asked if it was a Beneteau 32. Oh well, too bad if they can't take a joke.
My wife has agreed to a week of looking at boats later in the year. I just hope I can take all of the very sensible statements made on this thread and make a reasonable decision. 
Nice motorcycles eherlihy - I started with the classic Honda 55 - crossed Canada twice on '71 & '72 Yamaha 650s - now an '81 Honda 750.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Best of luck to you both!!


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