# Running wire down a mast...



## patrscoe (May 9, 2011)

In my attempt to upgrade my wind transducer vane, using the old existing cable as a guide line, the existing cable came apart and broke. The cable appeared to be strong enough but as I pulled the cable up, there was a splice that the previous owner installed and it pulled apart there.

Either case, I need to figure out a way to run the new cable down the mast besides removing the mast.
My mast has internal halyards and I was thinking of attaching the cable to one of the halyards to help guide it down until it reached the halyards exit slots just a few feet above the cabin top and then try to fish it down through the mast down to the cabin floor. (Mast is keel step). The problem is that the cable may end up rubbing on a line inside the mast as it will be outside the internal conduit. 
Any thoughts or creative ideas are surely welcomed.... 

Patrick


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

use bicycle chain as a weight on some strong fishing line.
if you do have a conduit then you can use a electrician's wire pulling snake


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

You can use a plumb bob tied to a nylon string. You may have to make several attempts to get it through, but it should eventually get through. Just make sure whatever weight you use can exit through the opening at the keel step.

Once it's through, get a heavier rope and pull that through with the string. That way you have a strong pull line that won't break. 

Strip the insulation off the wire about 6 in. and bend that over the pulling eye. This keeps the head small and less likely to get caught. When making up the head, use electrical tape and stretch it tightly as you wrap the head and make sure there is nothing to snag. Leave a tail in the tape so it's easier to remove. Also add a pull line to it so so you have something in the event you want to fish something through later.

If there was a lot of tension pulling up, you could feed the new cable down from the top. It's a bit tricky (I've done it) but it takes a lot of tension off the pulling rope. It's also easier to tell when you've hit a snag.


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

Julie, I REALLY like the idea of running the extra line for next time.


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## patrscoe (May 9, 2011)

Thanks.
I will need to run the cable through the mast head down. It is a ST70 Wind transducer which as the mounting base connected to the new cable. It's not a problem climbing the mast and dealing with this.
Sounds like drilling out a little bit larger hole at the mast head and running some kind of weight. I like the small bike chain, maybe a few links or perhaps fishing sinkers. 
Worth a try.


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

jimgo said:


> Julie, I REALLY like the idea of running the extra line for next time.


One of the many things you learn as an electrician.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

I done this down the conduit with a spool of fishing line and a sinker. Once you get it out the bottom of the conduit in and out of the mast, tape the wind transducer cable to it at the top of the mast and pull it through. After you are finished go back up and cut the fishing line and attach it at the head of the conduit with some slack. And cut the llne at the base of the mast and attach it also. 

Now you have a permanent messenger line for the next escapade ( Coax cable probably ). Fishing line wont break with weight.


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## benesailor (Dec 27, 2012)

I had the same issue recently and used my "electrician" fish tape. Well worth the money and very handy around the boat. I was able to squeeze it down the internal conduit. I did spray the wire with some silicone as well.


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## CaptainForce (Jan 1, 2006)

You may have a different route if you are working wintin a conduit, but if your traveling down the open interior of the mast, the best technique is to drop a lead fishing weight from a small line down from the mast head. First prepare an 18" piece of dental floss tied to the wegtht with a cotton ball on the bitter end. When the fishing weight hits the bilge ceiling apply a hand vacuum to the access hole at the base of the mast in order to suck in the cotton ball and your access to the messenger line. Of course. it's best to have a weight that will pass through your access hole at the mast step.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

CaptainForce said:


> You may have a different route if you are working wintin a conduit, but if your traveling down the open interior of the mast, the best technique is to drop a lead fishing weight from a small line down from the mast head. First prepare an 18" piece of dental floss tied to the wegtht with a cotton ball on the bitter end. When the fishing weight hits the bilge ceiling apply a hand vacuum to the access hole at the base of the mast in order to suck in the cotton ball and your access to the messenger line. Of course. it's best to have a weight that will pass through your access hole at the mast step.


Great tip with the cotton ball and vacuum.....I had to use a pair of surgeons hemostats to get mine " captured" through the opening


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

overbored said:


> use bicycle chain as a weight on some strong fishing line.
> if you do have a conduit then you can use a electrician's wire pulling snake


Use a short piece of bicycle chain or even just a steel bolt. Measure the distance from the top of the mast to the opening you want to come out of and mark the piece of line so that you at least know when the steel bit is close.

But then, instead of an electricians fish-tape, just use a magnet off one of your old speakers (sure you have, everyone has one in the garage ) The magnet will attract the steel bit through the mast aluminium and allow you to drag the steel bit to the opening. Voila!!!


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

Reading threads like this remind me just how much I enjoyed installing my wireless tack tick mast head unit  

But there are some really good tips here


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## captbillc (Jul 31, 2008)

when we put up the mast the bottom end of the main halyard was not secured. it ended up 3/4 of the way up inside the mast. i thought i would try to push it back down while sitting in the bo'sn's chair. i pushed it over the sheave & it went down the mast. then my friend used a bent wire as a hook to pull it out the hole. i had a snake with, but didn't need it.


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

T37Chef said:


> Reading threads like this remind me just how much I enjoyed installing my wireless tack tick mast head unit
> 
> But there are some really good tips here


It's nice to play amongst the wealthy . . . . .


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## mark2gmtrans (May 14, 2013)

benesailor said:


> I had the same issue recently and used my "electrician" fish tape. Well worth the money and very handy around the boat. I was able to squeeze it down the internal conduit. I did spray the wire with some silicone as well.


The electrician's fish tape is the right tool for the job, it is compact enough to store easily and will not get hung up on crap like plumb bobs and that sort of thing, plus that pulling wire through little conduits is what it was made for, so it will do the job.

Go to Home Depot, or Lowe's or wherever and get yourself one and eliminate a ton of headaches, if you do not already have one or have a friend who has one to loan you.


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

mark2gmtrans said:


> The electrician's fish tape is the right tool for the job, it is compact enough to store easily and will not get hung up on crap like plumb bobs and that sort of thing, plus that pulling wire through little conduits is what it was made for, so it will do the job.


Well, yes, but . . . .

When you're dropping the fish tape into the sheaves at the top of a 57ft mast that has a 10" diameter at the bottom then the arrival of the end of the fish tape at the aperture you're peering into is not a foregone conclusion. And when you have, as you say, crap in there, digging the end of the fish tape out can sometimes be a significant challenge.

Using a magnet to effectively grab the end of the dropped cord ensures that the end of the cord will be exactly where I expect it - at the hole I'm looking into.

I concede that when needing to shove something through the dark depths of my lockers in an attempt to reach another cavity three lockers along, a fish tape is hard to beat but to solve the OP's original question, I respectfully suggest that a fish tape is not the best solution.

At the risk of hijacking this thread - the use of a strong magnet and a steel dummy is a great way to get fittings into a mast, under a deck, between the coachroof and the headlining etc. Whenever you think "How the heck do I get that in there?" think magnet.


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

benesailor said:


> I had the same issue recently and used my "electrician" fish tape. Well worth the money and very handy around the boat. I was able to squeeze it down the internal conduit. I did spray the wire with some silicone as well.


There's different types of fish tapes. The steel type typically found in big box stores works well as long as you bend a proper head on it and don't have too many bends. A poorly made head can snag on existing wires and slice open the insulation. These are usually 1/8" spring steel flat stock.

I've also used a round nylon fist tape but if there's too much resistance in the pull, you can stretch and break the nylon tape. They are great for fishing through conduits with live wires and their smooth surface won't abrade adjacent cables or wires. But once they break, there's no repairing it.

The one I like best is what we call a slinky or sparks fish tape. It's like the nylon fish tape but it's made of metal and kind of like a tightly bound slinky. It has an internal wire in it to keep the slinky from stretching. When fishing down, its weight works to your advantage. I got mine at an electrical supply house but some big box stores may carry them.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Whatever you do with a fishtape, make sure you always tape up the end hook WELL so you don't hook things when pulling it back. A fishtape can work well (I carry a 50' tape aboard as std. equip.) but in this case, it may be better to drop a weighted line down, as some have mentioned. If lowered carefully, a weighted line will not have a tendency to wrap as a fishtape can. Fishtapes have a memory from being rolled on the coil. You can use a fishtape with a 1/2 hook on it to grab the line at the bottom. If the mast does not have a conduit, it may be a good time to put one in. With internal halyards, a conduit is a good idea. A continuous piece of 100# poly water line or something like it would probably work and could possibly be pushed UP from the bottom through a hole in the mast. It could then be attached to the mast by some inventive use of zip ties through small holes in the mast.


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## DonScribner (Jan 9, 2011)

I'm with Chef. Looks like folks have blown right past his suggestion but it is a legitimate method. Electricians running wire thru conduit use pom-poms and light string with a hefty shop vac to do the job. There's also a plastic dart with a bobbin in the rear to pay out line as it flies. It will depend on how big the holes are though. When I rewired mine (laying down) I strung foam marshmallows every 6 inches or so. Now, even in pitching seas, the wires are silent inside. Halyards . . . not so much.

If you try to just drop a line down, get a long nylon tie strap, form a loop and stuff it in the hole. It should expand back out to as big as it can. There's a chance that the line will fall inside it and you can just draw it out like a lasso. If not, no harm no foul.


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

Electricians NEVER try to blow a line through conduit that already has wire in it. That only creates problems as the mouse (whatever you tie the string to) will get snagged on, or pinched between, the wires. Most mast chases (usually a plastic conduit) already have wire in them. Trying to blow a string through them is an exercise in futility.

When the conduit is empty we use foam cylinders with a nylon jet line attached to it and blow it through with compressed air (CO2 or a compressor) or suck it through with a vacuum. The longer the run, the less effective the vacuum. I've used a full size compressor for really long runs in larger conduit. 

While the foam cylinders can be found on most jobs and are often used, a baggie with a jet line attached to it can work better, especially on smaller conduits. But you typically don't see vacuums or compressed air used on short runs. We typically use fish tapes. And of those different types, the spring steel are most commonly used, but we're talking metallic conduit. 

In the mast, I'd choose the slinky. As you are dropping it down, you can easily spin it if it gets caught and it will find its way through. But they're not cheap. A 50' Sparks will cost you about $75.00. That's why I didn't initially suggest it.


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## rugosa (Aug 30, 2011)

If you are going to buy the fish tape and ultimately store it aboard, make sure you extent it full length after the job and protect with lube film before coiling back in the disc, avoids the ugly rusty coil next time around  All tools should be properly maintained, and only loaned out VERY sparingly


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## mark2gmtrans (May 14, 2013)

JulieMor said:


> Electricians NEVER try to blow a line through conduit that already has wire in it. That only creates problems as the mouse (whatever you tie the string to) will get snagged on, or pinched between, the wires. Most mast chases (usually a plastic conduit) already have wire in them. Trying to blow a string through them is an exercise in futility.
> 
> When the conduit is empty we use foam cylinders with a nylon jet line attached to it and blow it through with compressed air (CO2 or a compressor) or suck it through with a vacuum. The longer the run, the less effective the vacuum. I've used a full size compressor for really long runs in larger conduit.
> 
> ...


Why that was silly of you not to suggest it when it was nearly free in comparison to everything else used on a boat ...LOL

I never have had any real problems with a steel fish tape, but I have only run maybe a few thousand yards of conduit, well maybe a couple of dozen miles, only four or five buildings worth and they were not huge. On some jobs we used a huge Joy Compressor like you run a jack hammer off of to blow the line through, and a huge glob of that old yellow snot stuff, what was that called, yellow 77 or something like that, but thank goodness I have not had to do that since I was a kid.

I would buy the slinky thingy, just because I would love to have a really good one to work on other people's boats, next time I go to Granger's I will have to get one. Maybe I can figure out a way to fit all the tools I like to carry onto a boat smaller than the Queen Mary


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

We used to call the yellow pulling lube "goose grease." +1 on using a plain old steel fishtape.


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

mark2gmtrans said:


> On some jobs we used a huge Joy Compressor like you run a jack hammer off of to blow the line through...


That takes me back to my first year apprenticeship. The foreman, a journeyman and I were blowing water out of underground conduits to prepare for wire pulls. It was the end of the day and there was a short run of about 500' of 2" conduit. I was the signal relayer. The foreman walked into a building to make sure everything was clear then came out and gave me the okay to let 'er rip. I waved to the journeyman to open up the compressor and turned to see the foreman disappear back into the building.  About a minute later he walked out swearing and soaked, but just the front of him. The back was bone dry. :laugher The water hit the top of the panel and shot right out at him.

About 20 years later I ran into the journeyman who was on the other end and he was still laughing about it.


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## redline (Feb 15, 2010)

I second the comment about taping the hook end of the flat fish tape. I (attempted to) use one to run the new radar cable (from mid-mast no less) through an internal conduit (a slit PVC pipe fitted over a "T" on the inside corner of the mast extrusion). 

Two problems - said PVC pipe was not one continuous run, apparently about halfway along the tape exited the conduit in the gap between one section and another, then went the rest of the way somewhere in the middle of the mast. Then when trying to pull the fish back it became clear it was stuck for good, and eventually I had to resort to cutting the fish and going back to "plan A" (which apparently everyone else does), namely pulling out the nav/deck light wire and using that to pull through a string, then the radar cable and replace nav/deck light cable. My concern about losing the existing cable (as the original poster did) was what prompted me to try the fish tape instead. In the end, the "old way" worked better.

I hate to admit that, as the mast was laying on the boat on its cradle, with the bottom end hanging about 4' aft of the the stern and some 14' off the ground, I did not notice when the fish tape reached the bottom... and hooked on the end of the mast itself. It had in fact exited the conduit about half-way, but I missed my measurement and hadn't realized I'd fed enough fish to reach the end, which was on the "far side" of the mast, between the furler, shrouds, halyards, and all that "stuff" that gets bundled with the mast when it's stowed for transit, and so invisible. Was kind of surprised when the cut section slid out the bottom so nicely. So I now have two fish tapes. 

In short, tape the end, watch that hook, and if you have a conduit, it may not be a single piece.


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