# High anxiety-passage v. Coastal



## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

A recurring theme on recent threads had been the suitability of various boats or features for open water transits. Repetitively folk infer " if it's gowing to happen...it will happen out there". 
At dinner last night people from U.K., Australia, Canada, both coasts of U.S. who made it to BVIs reported what broke and when. When were their hairy moments. When they were scared or very stressed. All seemed to involve coastal sailing or day hops between islands.
This leads me to believe coastal sailing maybe more stressful, more dangerous to boat and crew and require a greater sense of alertness.
Off shore even with no weather fax coming in and the radar off you can see the weather. Coastal that thunderstorm can come over that hill and be on you in a blink. Waves break when their bottom hits the bottom of the ocean. Rather be in a 10' swell with a long period than 5-6' chop.
Offshore being 25 or 50 or even 100m off your position doesn't matter. Near shore a few yards maybe critical.
Before leaving to go offshore everything is as perfect as you can make it. Near shore. "aw I wont need it today" so let's go sailing I'll fix tomorrow.
Offshore crew is hand picked. Near shore " let's take Joe and Joan we owe them a dinner.
If you value your life you won't go offshore unless in an fully found offshore capable boat. Near shore "whatever- it will serve.
In short although "it's waves not the wind that will kill you" is true. It's also true it's the hard edges of the ocean that create a lot of the stress along with the other idiots in ships and boats.
I wonder if those more experienced than me agree that coastal is more stressful and quite possibly more dangerous.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

outbound said:


> I wonder if those more experienced than me agree that coastal is more stressful and quite possibly more dangerous.


Definitely more dangerous near shore.

Near as I can tell the only dangers that exist off shore that don't exist near shore are Krakens and killer giant squids. Meanwhile near shore there are rocks, shoals, boats, chop etc etc


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

outbound said:


> This leads me to believe coastal sailing maybe more stressful, more dangerous to boat and crew and require a greater sense of alertness.


Absolutely, but with one important caveat... That the boat you be taking "offshore" be well suited to handling whatever it might encounter out there, and not place excessive demands upon a shorthanded crew... 

Otherwise, all things being equal, there's little comparison between the amount of stuff that can go wrong, or the potential consequences thereof, between coastal and open water sailing...

For me, having grown up on the Jersey Shore, running inlets like those to be found between Shinnecock and the Outer Banks has always provided some of the most hair-raising and least forgiving situations I've ever had on the water... In my experience, running a sportfisherman or motor yacht down the East coast, constantly running in and out of inlets or along certain stretches of the ICW, is FAR more stressful than taking something like a Valiant 42 direct to the Islands... There's just so much more that can go wrong, so many more hazards to encounter, so much less margin for error, and with little more than a bit of bad luck, or a mechanical failure at precisely the wrong time, one could easily lose or damage a boat heavily...

One thing I'll never understand, why it is so hard for so many people plowing down the ICW to appreciate, that there is simply _SO_ much less that can go wrong running outside, instead...


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Thanks Don
Also think even though weather forecasts are good for 4 days max the statement that coastal production boats won't see dangerous weather is untrue.
The worse weather I've seen is typically coastal. Pressure to get from point B to point A due to need to return to work or other appointment. Offshore no need to beat to weather against strong winds. Plenty of room to hove too and wait. We can make up time after it blows through.
Also near shore even moderate waves break. Waves bounce off the coast giving confused seas. Wave periods are shorter. Saying coastal boats need not be as strong I think is misleading. Yes this is true if you only daysail. But if you cruise your boat should be ocean safe as well as be able to handle the often more difficult coastal environment.
That ocean boat that tracks like a train also needs to get in the last slip in with the1 million dollar boat next to it.
Think any discussion of blue water boats is just silly.
Once it leaves the dock if it going to gone for awhile discussion should be - is it a good strong boat able to handle whatever it needs to or not. 
Dividing line is it a fair weather daysailor to party on or race or is it an ocean boat.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

Don0190 said:


> Definitely more dangerous near shore.
> 
> Near as I can tell the only dangers that exist off shore that don't exist near shore are Krakens and killer giant squids. Meanwhile near shore there are rocks, shoals, boats, chop etc etc


Yes, surfing into Shinecock inlet for the first time, at night, alone was not something I would care to repeat. I'd rather take a chance out there with the Kracken. I'll keep a sharp knife handy as I have a hunch squid steaks could be mighty tasty. Though some hazards that were once a concern "out there" have also migrated closer to shore these days: THE BIANKA LOG BLOG: BIG MAMMALS AND THE BIG APPLE


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

I couldn't agree more; rocks sink boats, but a well found vessel should not founder at sea.
If you are 15 miles off on your navigation half way between Bermuda and the VI, it isn't much of a problem, but if you are half a mile off between St. John and Virgin Gorda, you might run right into an island, or two.
The weather thing I'm much less in agreement with. Even when underway on a coastal passage, I can usually get a TV station with a good weather report and great visuals. My SiriusXM Marine Weather gives me a great deal more comprehensive information than any radio broadcast, but that is not available once you are too far out.
At sea, you may be able to see a bit more of the weather coming toward you, but you have no idea of it's intensity and duration. Weather reports and routers can only give broad generalizations, not accurate, area specific information equal to what SiriusXM Marine Weather or a TV or Weather Channel IR loop gives us. 
So, there is a trade off as a navigator and captain; I can relax much more offshore as far as traffic and obstructions are concerned. But the information on weather is certainly much better close to shore, and that is a good thing, too. I would forgo AIS and a lot of the fancy new gewgaws for SiriusXM Marine Weather on my chartplotter down here, in a heartbeat.


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

outbound said:


> I wonder if those more experienced than me agree that coastal is more stressful and quite possibly more dangerous.


I'm most certainly _not _more experienced than you but I agree wholeheartedly.

Coastal sailing here around Sydney is in blustery, unpredictable conditions with barred entrances the norm on this coast if you do decide to seek shelter. You add in a good bit of shipping, plenty of fish traps, fishing boats and the fact that you in are in the Tasman Sea and it is not happy go lucky sailing in anything but the best of conditions.(and even then there is the ever constant threat of the situation changing and getting caught out).

Likewise, coastal sailing the otherside of the Tasman around New Zealand where 45 knots is just a good day sailing is not somewhere I would wish to be in a ill suited boat.

Give me a tradewind crossing anyday.

Thus is the silliness of the Bluewater vs Coastal debate. It is a nonsense. If a boat can't take heavy weather then it is not a boat I would wish to be in 2 miles from shore or 200 miles from shore.


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

mbianka said:


> I'll keep a sharp knife handy as I have a hunch squid steaks could be mighty tasty.


Mmmmmm . . . . . I have a hunch that you'll probably come second in the unlikely event that you should meet a giant squid.






My wife gets noticeably anxious when approaching landfall and with good reason. Close to shore you'll find wind eddies, currents and a range of unmovable, unforgiving and often invisible obstacles that you boat won't enjoy meeting.

In the well-traveled subject of offshore-capable boats on this board, I have commented that I believe a poor quality boat with a good skipper is better than a great boat with a poor quality skipper. I stand by that comment with the proviso that the boat shouldn't be a complete piece of junk.

We have sailed in a wide range of conditions both at sea and coastal, from 80 knots of wind 400nm from land to a strong current set in a harbor approach with no motor and a dying wind. I was frightened by both events at the time but I would sooner repeat the former than the latter,

Whilst sailing at sea is less stressful, the prospect of a new landfall is (for me) more exciting. It is the essence of why we go cruising.


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## dorymate1 (Dec 6, 2011)

Open Water - Close Water Just give me water.
Both have their mind numbing possibilities & challenges
That's why we go.

I don't think offshore sailors are as afraid of inshore as only inshore sailors are offshore.

Off shore rules


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

My point about the weather is best expressed by thinking about these situations.
You are on passage. You see a line of squalls miles off. You have a good chance of dancing through them or at least be on the correct side as they pass through.
Your in a bay. Could be Narragansett or one of the fjords in Maine. Could be anywhere you have no choice but to navigate a thin strip of water between high lands. Not only do you have no chance of changing your course but you may struggle to shorten sail before the squall hits.
Yes getting weather off the satphone or Ssb is great. But you can also see weather and act accordingly. Yes radar scope or your own radar with rain tuned down is wonderful but often when coastal you are stuck with a fixed heading.
Interestingly fellow sailor told me that after making love or completely a passage he is ecstatic. But then gets sad for awhile. Sometimes the landfall gives mixed emotions.


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## aloof (Dec 21, 2014)

If one has high anxiety on a passage, either coastal or offshore, one is doing something wrong. This is supposed to be relaxing.


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

outbound said:


> My point about the weather is best expressed by thinking about these situations.
> You are on passage. You see a line of squalls miles off. You have a good chance of dancing through them or at least be on the correct side as they pass through.
> Your in a bay. Could be Narragansett or one of the fjords in Maine. Could be anywhere you have no choice but to navigate a thin strip of water between high lands. Not only do you have no chance of changing your course but you may struggle to shorten sail before the squall hits.
> Yes getting weather off the satphone or Ssb is great. But you can also see weather and act accordingly. Yes radar scope or your own radar with rain tuned down is wonderful but often when coastal you are stuck with a fixed heading.
> Interestingly fellow sailor told me that after making love or completely a passage he is ecstatic. But then gets sad for awhile. Sometimes the landfall gives mixed emotions.


We have been in that situation. A couple of years ago we were exiting Pancake Creek, a popular anchorage in North Queensland with a dogleg entrance between a Sandbar and a Rocky headland.

As we exited we were raising our main when we saw an approaching squall. We went through the motions of reefing and preparing the boat, however as we were exiting a popular anchorage first thing in the morning, with us and now just to seaward of us were about another 10 vessels doing the same thing( as we were the smaller and slower vessel under power).

When the squall hit visibility reduced dramatically, and with a lee shore on one side and 10 now invisible vessels in close proximity to seaward it was a very tense half an hour.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Chall
I had thought of cruising oz. You are scaring me away.
Jon
Do you think we can ever get Smackdaddy to understand there are good boats and not so much boats. Production,age, size, rating aren't the determining factors. Rather be in a Fisher 46 than many current production boats even though the fisher is EU B. A good boat is good regardless of where she is.


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

aloof said:


> If one has high anxiety on a passage, either coastal or offshore, one is doing something wrong. This is supposed to be relaxing.


There are so many retorts to that statement. I'll start.

- If you are able to watch the wind rise from 15 knots to 80 knots in 5 hours without growing anxiety, you are seriously relaxed - perhaps to the point of foolhardiness.

-One does not have to do something wrong to get caught in quickly changing weather.

- I was not doing anything wrong when a squash zone happened along but that didn't stop anxiety going through the roof.

- If you are in a serious blow and you're not scared, you're either very experienced or very stupid. Fear helps you survive.


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

passages are easier with practice and confidence in your own sailing skill. until you are conf¡dent in your sailing skills then you will be nervous on a passage .
it is not the boat but the sailor. more practice in open ocean , the more skill you will have. sailing lee shores is always a concern, but is not a scary thing unless ye screw up badly.
any boat can go around the world. is the sailor who makes the boat go where it is supposed to go.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

But gentleman in recent times we read about highly skilled sailors with great experience getting into serious trouble and abandoning multi million dollar yachts mid ocean or pulling down rigs running aground or being lost at sea. My interfence is:
Schedules kill
Fewer boats are being made that allow you to close down shop and passively survive the storm.
I feel part of the definition of a good boat is that it will take care of you. Kind of like the old saw
A monohull takes care of you but you take care of a multi.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

It's only more dangerous near shore because that's where the production boats sail. 

Medsailor


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

outbound said:


> Fewer boats are being made that allow you to close down shop and passively survive the storm.
> I feel part of the definition of a good boat is that it will take care of you. Kind of like the old saw
> A monohull takes care of you but you take care of a multi.


When I began sailing, there were few boat designs to choose from. They were all heavy displacement, rather slow and ponderous, but they could take a beating, and come out of it all with little damage and without the crew needing to call for help (which didn't exist at that time anyway). Some had two pointy ends and others had a bit of a cutaway forward, but all in all they were much the same. There were even some made from stone that were pretty good sea boats!
With all the choices out there today and all the opinions, from the neophyte to the expert so easily available on the web, the information overload for the first time buyer must be staggering.
So, I'd have to agree with you outbound; a good boat will take care of her crew long after they have reached their limit to do so for themselves.


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## chuck5499 (Aug 31, 2003)

outbound said:


> Off shore even with no weather fax coming in and the radar off you can see the weather. Coastal that thunderstorm can come over that hill and be on you in a blink.
> 
> Before leaving to go offshore everything is as perfect as you can make it. Near shore. "aw I wont need it today" so let's go sailing I'll fix tomorrow.
> Offshore crew is hand picked. Near shore " let's take Joe and Joan we owe them a dinner.
> ...


My first comment would be it is no difference in driving a freeway across say Kansas and then getting off a ramp into downtown Kansas City. Everything changes, you are more alert, a bit more cautious, pay more attention ect. 
No difference at sea. Last year we made 30+ new ports of call. We do get more alert, watch harder, concentrate more, spend more time looking at cruising guides on what to expect, ect. So not a big deal. on the first part.

Second you comment on wx at sea I find nonsense. We do a lot of long passages and run radar when out, at night and even if close in turn the radar on to check 24nm out to see if we got wx coming or if we even see clouds we turn it on. We also check wx at least once a day, before we begin the day or in on a multiday passage we check in the morning by downloading gribs and wx fax off our ssb. Then we plan accordingly.

We make sure our boat is always as perfect as we can make it regardless of a day sail or an ocean passage. Makes no difference to us. If it is not ready we don't go. Does it means things don't break while we are doing a day sail? Sure do as we blew out a main crossing the Italian boot and lost our alternator on a day hop down the Italian eastern coast. But before we left all was working properly. If you go out with a broken boat you are asking for trouble.

As for crew, well we do not take crew. Did that a couple of times and it did not work out so we just don't do it. We have taken a couple of people out on day sails but again everything is in place for a day sail and we expect nothing from them except conversation as they will not be sailing our boat.

For us it is not stress just thinking and looking and analyzing and talking with each other as we head in. Oh of course I am driving instead of otto pelo who does the majority of driving for us when we are out.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Chuck
We have very similar protocols except I like to get in 6-8h of sleep a day so I'm obligated to take on crew. I also try to get weather every 6 hours for something to do.
I find weather downloads extremely helpful. There is great info in a synoptic overview or even a local regional forecast but neither tell you the weather right where you are. Nor does your recording barometer. Your eyes do that. Radar gives you a 360 view offshore but you commonly lose the sector over land when coastal even if you have a red light at the top of your mast.
There's a joke in New England. If you don't like the weather wait 5 minutes. Maybe there aren't so many very local disturbances where you are. For us when coastal near home there are. Another common joke amongst New England sailors is the frequent discrepancy between NOAA and what we experience.
Lastly many folks work or have other obligations. They have limited time. When they get to the boat they have a choice. Do I fix this problem or go sailing and put off the job. Sometimes even on coastal cruises there is a schedule so jobs are put off due to the pressure of time. I am happy for you that apparently you do not suffer under the restrictions many others labor under. The remote cockpit mic is broken. Cay electronics can't get a replacement for a week. Company is flying down today. I will leave with them and a broken mic. The one at nav station is fine. I'll put a handheld in the cockpit. Do I stay in the harbor and ruin their vacation? I think not.
I've heard from others than the eastern med the sailing can be quite challenging. The flip side of our coastal weather are the lovely days of steady 10-15 under clear skies. This leads some to believe coastal is less stressful then ocean and its that to which I hoped the conversation would be directed. 
Should leave tomorrow for a week to 10 days. Probably no wifi at times. Love you guys but not to point to follow on satphone or Ssb. Please continue to contribute. will,catch up later.


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

Once, the water is over your head, what difference does it make?


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

outbound said:


> . Another common joke amongst New England sailors is the frequent discrepancy between NOAA and what we experience.


I've never found that to be funny so the joke must be on me.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

chall03 said:


> Thus is the silliness of the Bluewater vs Coastal debate. It is a nonsense. If a boat can't take heavy weather then it is not a boat I would wish to be in 2 miles from shore or 200 miles from shore.


_EXACTLY_... That's why the whole "Bluewater vs. Coastal" thing has always seemed ridiculous to me, as well...

Seems to me that no other single event poses a great threat to most sailors - both in terms of the probability of it occurring, and the potential severity of the consequences - than a hard grounding, or some form of being driven ashore, or a serious encounter with something hard, and immovable...

Gotta say that this is one area where Hunter's approach to that issue certainly appears to be on the right track... Watch those videos of Steve Pettengill driving those Hunters up on the beach in St Augusting at full tilt, it's obvious they're paying attention to what's required to make at least the keels of their boats able to withstand that sort of trauma, so kudos to them...



aloof said:


> If one has high anxiety on a passage, either coastal or offshore, one is doing something wrong. This is supposed to be relaxing.


In theory, you might be correct... In practice, perhaps not... 

Besides, there are some folks who set off in small boats not purely for "relaxation", but because they also relish a bit of adventure, and the satisfaction that can result from successfully meeting a _challenge_...


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## chuck5499 (Aug 31, 2003)

outbound said:


> Chuck
> We have very similar protocols except I like to get in 6-8h of sleep a day so I'm obligated to take on crew. I also try to get weather every 6 hours for something to do.
> I find weather downloads extremely helpful. There is great info in a synoptic overview or even a local regional forecast but neither tell you the weather right where you are. Nor does your recording barometer. Your eyes do that. Radar gives you a 360 view offshore but you commonly lose the sector over land when coastal even if you have a red light at the top of your mast.
> There's a joke in New England. If you don't like the weather wait 5 minutes. Maybe there aren't so many very local disturbances where you are. For us when coastal near home there are. Another common joke amongst New England sailors is the frequent discrepancy between NOAA and what we experience.
> ...


Interesting but your wx is no different than any place else. We have sailed there for 2 summers and actually find it more managable than some and a bit easier to predict. 
We have sailed the entire east coast 2 1/2 times, all the bahamas twice, from miami to mexico to colombia, to Jamaica, to Trinidad then back up island to Antigua and a 2 person atlantic crossing and 2 years in the Med. This summer will be our third. 
We use radar when we are close to land and sometimes even in a marina to see what is coming at us. It works and works well. Had a storm coming last year when we were in a marina in croatia that some thought would miss us but i turned on radar and saw it coming right at us and it hit us hard. we also have watched storms on radar about 2-3 miles off the coast of panama pass in front of us only to hit the land and come back out to sea and warp around us with lightening hitting about 200 yards behind the boat and knocking off our electronics at 0300 in 30k+ winds, blind rain and pitch dark and the boat on a/p and the helm swung all the way around. it was not a really good night. If you know to use the radar it works well.

I find bashing NOAA not useful. They do a pretty fair job and we rely on their forecast but we still look at trends and make our own mind up when we do passages. When we used Chris Parker in the Carib, and we met him personnally, he told us he is good but he makes mistakes so we need to do our own forecast also and use him as a tool. When we were looking for a wx window to leave for our Atlantic crossing we were talking with Chris everyday and suddenly a window looked like it might open. Watching it for a day and looking at the past the question was would it swing south or stay north. Chris gave it a medium probablity of staying north but not high confidence. Our data said past storms were going south. We sat but 2 boat left. We got a window about a week later and had a good crossing. On the crossing we got an alert on our ssb for a boat watch for 2 boats. When we got to Horta we found 3 boats were missing and gone. You have to make your own forecast and use NOAA as input just as we do here. By the way we use at least 3-4 different sources for our weather before we leave on long passages. For short day runs we usually only use 2 assuming we have internet if not we use one.

As for the condition of the boat - a ram mike is one thing as there are backups but beyond something as simple as that i would take exception.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Wasn't bashing NOAA. Think they do a great job but rather like you said even the best forecasts only give probabilities at the end of the day. I guess you did not infer the attempt at humor. 
Find Chris wonderful as he repetitively makes you aware of this.
Still in your prior postings I'm still unclear on your position as regards the original tenant of the thread. Which do you find more stressful in your extensive travels coastal or off shore?


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## Yorksailor (Oct 11, 2009)

Neither scenario is stressful...good boat(Tayana 55), solid skipper (my wife) and a good crew/mechanic (me) the only stress is fixing things before we go...Once off the dock all stress disappears!

Stress comes from lack of ability which can only be overcome by experience...after the first 1,000 days or 50,000 nm at sea (which ever comes first) it is quite easy!

Phil


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

Most of my experience in the Arctic could be considered coastal.Even offshore was skirting massive ice flows and shore work was turning up the radar wave function to show where water wasn't and mud started. Charts next to useless,compass and sat nav the same and weather condition reports were what I radioed into Inuvik. Not at all stressful as I remember it. Just adventure for a good paychek. Sailing Atantic and Pacific was easy so no big money involved.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Trying to think of the most common cause of anxiety on the water and it occurs to me it's far more often to be other boats than weather or sea condition. Doesn't matter where I see them. Could be an intercepting tanker offshore, the countless boats moving up and down the NE coast or the dinghy/kayak puttering near the marina that doesn't seem to understand I can't stop 20 tons on a dime.


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## chuck5499 (Aug 31, 2003)

outbound said:


> Wasn't bashing NOAA. Think they do a great job but rather like you said even the best forecasts only give probabilities at the end of the day. I guess you did not infer the attempt at humor.
> Find Chris wonderful as he repetitively makes you aware of this.
> Still in your prior postings I'm still unclear on your position as regards the original tenant of the thread. Which do you find more stressful in your extensive travels coastal or off shore?


After 8 years out here we do not stress about much. We use to on entering ports but now just take each in stride. As for the open ocean we do get concerned and our antennas go up a bit in shipping lanes when trying to cross them and working with the big boats to make safe passes. But for stress I guess we are past that.


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

I've felt more anxiety sailing near land than sailing farther away from it. Probably the most anxiety I've felt in a while was not clearing the Cape Romano shoals by enough one time, and realizing that that I was sailing between two sandbars with about a foot of water over them, and was almost ten miles offshore. 

At least when you are offshore, weather is really about your only real concern.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

What stresses me is having other folks on-board. Not that I don't like it, but I relax more alone.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Hyper
Your comment interests me. Just came back from short cruise. Had couple on board "sailing their whole life but was clueless and he puked the whole beat from Peters to bitter end. It was a beat in 30s apparent with some gusts but no real seas. I would have been much happier without them. Came back by myself and stress free except the usual when docking.
However offshore much rather have a good sailor with me. They can let me sleep, help if something breaks, give advice, run boat if I'm incapacitated, offer company and share the moment. Even if I had a million miles under my keel think I would still like skilled pleasant company on a passage.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

Three things.

Off-shore you can encounter a storm that may last for days. A boat has to be designed to deal with that much wear and tear. Near shore most weather you encounter will be a squall of a few minutes as larger fronts you will usually know about from the weather service and just not be out in it.

The very idea of dealing with bad weather for several consecutive several days and attended loss of sleep and broken gear makes off-shore more challenging.


Off-shore if something go wrong it is a big deal to get help and may take days and often the loss of your boat. Near shore help is usually only an hour or so away and the boat can typically be saved.


In short near shore is where the anxiety is because of the hard bits and off-shore can be boring except when it is not.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

chall03 said:


> Thus is the silliness of the Bluewater vs Coastal debate. It is a nonsense. If a boat can't take heavy weather then it is not a boat I would wish to be in 2 miles from shore or 200 miles from shore.


Bingo.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

> Originally Posted by *chall03 *
> Thus is the silliness of the Bluewater vs Coastal debate. It is a nonsense. If a boat can't take heavy weather then it is not a boat I would wish to be in 2 miles from shore or 200 .....





smackdaddy said:


> Bingo.


Bingo, perhaps, but I don't think this thread is about faith or lack thereof in ones boat, but rather what worries YOU more... David's 4 day storm at sea, or threading your way around hard hazards near shore.. Or nasty wharfingers


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Two miles from shore, I could sit in a liferaft for maybe a few hours and be rescued. Outside US helo territory, I better be all that much more convinced I wouldn't need to. 

I do agree that production boats can be outfitted for offshore use. But, I also think those requirements differ between 2 miles and 200 miles.


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## jerryrlitton (Oct 14, 2002)

Minnewaska said:


> Two miles from shore, I could sit in a liferaft for maybe a few hours and be rescued. Outside US helo territory, I better be all that much more convinced I wouldn't need to.
> 
> I do agree that production boats can be outfitted for offshore use. But, I also think those requirements differ between 2 miles and 200 miles.


Bingo.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

So we are back to that. That's fine but was wanting to talk about stress on you not boat as faster points out. So if concerns about storms, sinking, possibility of rescue is praying on your mind frequently then offshore must be stressful for you. I accept that as being quite a reasonable view. But find offshore I do not think that much about it. Rather feel at peace as long as weather is good,boat is moving,have enough sleep and nothing is broken. Get that total in the moment at peace feeling less frequently when coastal and worrying about traffic, navigation, tides,currents, schedules, arranging mooring/berth/availability of place to anchor.yada yada
In short less unbroken time to just be there. Thought that's one of the good reasons to go sailing.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

outbound said:


> So we are back to that. That's fine but was wanting to talk about stress on you not boat as faster points out. So if concerns about storms, sinking, possibility of rescue is praying on your mind frequently then offshore must be stressful for you. I accept that as being quite a reasonable view. But find offshore I do not think that much about it. Rather feel at peace as long as weather is good,boat is moving,have enough sleep and nothing is broken. Get that total in the moment at peace feeling less frequently when coastal and worrying about traffic, navigation, tides,currents, schedules, arranging mooring/berth/availability of place to anchor.yada yada
> In short less unbroken time to just be there. Thought that's one of the good reasons to go sailing.


A Pacific Crossing should do you just right. Pure sailing, hardly adjust a sheet for three weeks, unimpeded sailing, long rest periods, just plain ol sailing.....


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

> A Pacific Crossing should do you just right. Pure sailing, hardly adjust a sheet for three weeks, unimpeded sailing, long rest periods, just plain ol sailing.....


That's the plan!!!!
Wife retires in 2 years. Mess around in eastern then western Caribbean. Make sure we are up to it and still want to do it. Then through the canal and off we go. Can't wait. Totally psyched. She wants Seven Star to get us back from Thailand. Just hope I can scrape together the boat units. Can't believe what they and Dockwise get.


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

We should be in Thailand in about two years as well, all being well.

Yes we are closer, but our boat is smaller and slower and the crew a little less help on watch.

aeventyr60's shout when we all get there


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## jerryrlitton (Oct 14, 2002)

chall03 said:


> We should be in Thailand in about two years as well, all being well.
> 
> Yes we are closer, but our boat is smaller and slower and the crew a little less help on watch.
> 
> aeventyr60's shout when we all get there


Come on over, the water is fine.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

outbound said:


> That's the plan!!!!
> Wife retires in 2 years. Mess around in eastern then western Caribbean. Make sure we are up to it and still want to do it. Then through the canal and off we go. Can't wait. Totally psyched. She wants Seven Star to get us back from Thailand. Just hope I can scrape together the boat units. Can't believe what they and Dockwise get.


By the time you get this far you will be a seasoned blue water sailor and wouldn't dream of shipping your boat on a boat. It''s all down hill from here to the ol caribe, well, except for that nasty bit down the Africa Coast.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Thanks for the encouragement. Maybe we can get a section like the cheakepeak folks have here on SN.:laugher


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

davidpm said:


> The very idea of dealing with bad weather for several consecutive several days and attended loss of sleep and broken gear makes off-shore more challenging.


Sorry, but anyone who feels seriously challenged by _the very IDEA_ that one might have to deal with a prolonged period of serious weather has no business being out there to begin with, and had best confine their sailing to within cell phone range of SeaTow... 

Also, the extent to which a boat might be 'battered' by heavy weather offshore is generally, in my view, greatly overstated... If things get that bad, where the boat and crew is being punished by the conditions, there's often a pretty simple alternative: just _HEAVE-TO_, for chrissake! And yet, it's amazing how rarely this most basic of seamanlike tactics seems to be employed these days... Can anyone recall a particular instance of a boat in the Caribbean 1500 or Salty Dawg Rallies simply taking the decision to park it for awhile, go easy on the boat for a bit, and let the crew get some rest, and re-group? Perhaps someone has done it, but it's certainly rarely done, everyone seems to think they have to keep moving at all costs... A contributing factor, of course, might be that so many of today's Latest and Greatest boats can be rather difficult to be make to heave-to properly... But there is no greater 'Stress Reliever' in rough weather offshore than heaving-to, nothing else even comes close...

Scott & Kitty Kuhner, describing their first of 2 circumnavigations, this on on a 30' Allied Seawind, which they prepped for by reading Eric Hiscock 



> S&K: *One thing we learned from the Hiscocks before we set sail was that whenever they encountered heavy weather, they'd heave-to.* We'd do the same thing. We hove-to between Rarotonga and Bora Bora for three days in 35 to 45 knots. Seas were breaking over the boat, green water every 15 or 20 minutes. But we never worried about the boat. It was just a matter of when it was going to end. She hove-to very well, and generally it was very comfortable.
> 
> BWS: It's sundown, the wind is gusting to 35, and the glass is still falling? What did you do with the Seawind?
> 
> ...





davidpm said:


> Off-shore if something go wrong it is a big deal to get help and may take days and often the loss of your boat. Near shore help is usually only an hour or so away and the boat can typically be saved.


Help being "within an hour of so" presupposes you're sailing in places like Chesapeake Bay, or Long Island Sound... I can think of many places where being within 2 miles of land, may as well be 500 for all intents and purposes, in terms of how quickly "help" could be on the scene...

In addition, boats are hardly "often lost" offshore when things go wrong, such catastrophic events are actually rather rare... Now, if you really mean they are sometimes _DISCARDED_, that's quite another matter, and it does seem to be occurring with increasing frequency, and the comparative ease with which offshore rescues can summoned, and effected today...

The extent to which the notion of self-sufficiency or self-rescue has gone by the boards today is one of the more striking changes I've seen over my lifetime on the water... When I was taught to sail as a kid, one of the first things drummed into us by our mentors, was that each of us was solely responsible for getting our little boats back to shore, and anyone who required outside assistance to do so suffered a sort of youthful Public Shaming 

Obviously, there can be circumstances where outside assistance is absolutely required, and the smart thing to do... But again, the prevalent mindset I see today to "Call for Help" as the first response to trouble, it's really quite stunning... The immediacy with which people will call SeaTow after running aground on the ICW at or near low tide, for instance, it never ceases to amaze...


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## ccriders (Jul 8, 2006)

JonEisberg said:


> A contributing factor, of course, might be that so many of today's Latest and Greatest boats can be rather difficult to be make to heave-to properly... But there is no greater 'Stress Reliever' in rough weather offshore than heaving-to, nothing else even comes close...


I've read elsewhere here that the Jordan Series Drogue accomplishes the same calming in storm situations. Would you care to compare and contrast heaving-to vs jsd? Also what boat configurations make heaving to difficult? Would the jsd work where heaving-to won't? Has "lying a hull" been discounted?
Thanks,
John


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Lying a-hull is the worst choice in serious seas. The JSD must be sailed against and some say brings the risk of a breaking wave over the stern that could damage the boat, although, not sink it. Heaving to is great, unless your boat doesn't heave to well, or winds shift suddenly and she self tacks. A parachute anchor, off the bow, can pull out of the face of a wave and jar the boat, or worse, break a deck cleat.

I've recemtly become curious whether one can run a JSD off the bow, like a parachute.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

Most of the offshore voyaging has been magic! It's what I dreamed about, prepared for and live for. Dream passages to the Gaalpagos, cross the Pacific to the Marquessa, trade wind sailing at it's finest. Distance landfalls made possible buy a well found boat and able crew. Sure the NW passage down the Oregon/ Washingtoncoast were not much fun, and the nasty trip from Tonga to new Zealand would cause many to give it all up. Easy sail plan on a cutter rigged boat, trysail on a second track. stout storm jib all have been used. If you will not learn to heave to and have the appropriate heavy weather gear onboard, then your voyaging life will be short. Take the time to to learn how your boat heaves too..practice in the light stuff, when it gets a bit lumpy, heave too. Make a cuppa, roast a chicken, take a well deserved sleep, hey I racked out for 20 hours hove too after a very nasty series of lows off the South Island of New Zealand, pure bliss that ol heaving too...


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

As pointed out on a another thread some current production boats would seem to be at risk of down flooding if pooped while using a JSD. I carry one. During construction of my boat asked stern cleats be moved as far aft as feasible. That blacking plates not washers be employed. Also had stainless plate placed under cleat and run back to edge of deck to minimize chafe. I might lose my Bimini but won't lose my boat.
I have tried to hove to with triple reefed main and storm jib. Best I can achieve is a fore reach. Have yet to need to employ either tactic but nice to know there are there. 
Think with modern boats they are less likely to behave well lying to any sort of sea anchor. Read the JSD site for more info and read about history of boats using JSD v. sea anchor. Maybe a better technique for multis but lead to understand they have moved away from them as well.
Know two different boats/sailors who said when doing the clock they never saw more than 40 and that briefly. Think they sailed in season and were lucky. Still once you know you have a technique that will allow you to button up the boat and lie down below this is not an issue of daily concern and stress.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

outbound said:


> I have tried to hove to with triple reefed main and storm jib. Best I can achieve is a fore reach. Have yet to need to employ either tactic but nice to know there are there.


John Harries has an interesting suggestion that might work for you, streaming an undersized drogue (a partial section of your Series Drogue would probably do nicely) to help hold the bow up, and inhibit the tendency to want to fore-reach...

How to Stop Wave Strikes While Heaved-to in a Sailboat Offshore in a Storm


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

aeventyr60 said:


> Most of the offshore voyaging has been magic! It's what I dreamed about, prepared for and live for. Dream passages to the Gaalpagos, cross the Pacific to the Marquessa, trade wind sailing at it's finest. Distance landfalls made possible buy a well found boat and able crew. Sure the NW passage down the Oregon/ Washingtoncoast were not much fun, and the nasty trip from Tonga to new Zealand would cause many to give it all up. Easy sail plan on a cutter rigged boat, trysail on a second track. stout storm jib all have been used. If you will not learn to heave to and have the appropriate heavy weather gear onboard, then your voyaging life will be short. Take the time to to learn how your boat heaves too..practice in the light stuff, when it gets a bit lumpy, heave too. Make a cuppa, roast a chicken, take a well deserved sleep, hey I racked out for 20 hours hove too after a very nasty series of lows off the South Island of New Zealand, pure bliss that ol heaving too...


Your post gets to the heart of a point I've tried to make repeatedly, how many people's attitude towards offshore sailing and passagemaking has changed as 'Voyaging' has morphed into more of a 'Lifestyle', as opposed as an 'Activity' based upon a love of sailing, combined with a heavy dose of wanderlust...

It's amazing how few cruisers today seem to view passagemaking as a truly unique adventure, and something to savor, or revel in... Most view passages with trepidation, and as something simply to be _ENDURED_ as the price of admission to the next destination where they can once again, begin living the Cruising Lifestyle... Really a pity, how many folks really don't appreciate the actual _SAILING_, and the rare ability in today's world to truly "check out", and experience the raw beauty of nature to be found out there, perhaps even managing to go a day or two without checking email, or posting to a blog... 

Everyone seems to want to get a passage over with as quickly as possible, and view something like heaving-to, or reducing sail at night when squalls might be encountered, as undesirable tactics that will only serve to prolong the 'misery' of offshore sailing...



I've been a runner (well, more of a "jogger", actually) for most of my life, yet I've never experienced the "Runner's High" that many serious runners speak of... But I have experienced a sort of 'Atlantic High' on some passages, and it is something very special indeed, when you actually manage to have somewhat mixed feelings upon arriving at your destination, tinged with a bit of regret that the sailing is nearly over...


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

Yes, Exactly. On a recent light wind passage from the South West coast of Palawan, Philippines back to our secret spot in the South China Sea, Malaysian waters, we kinda had that Nirvana offshore experience that so many lust for. Seven months of day sailing, coral infested waters, extremely challenging coastal cruising, found us greatly relieved to be offshore. Average winds of 10 knots, kite out, slowly making our way South across tha Palawan passage, skirting the "dangerous ground, wanting to go a bit further North into the hotly contested Spratly group, days of endless sailing, catching a mahi mahi, fish tacos on the bbg, Cinco de mayo fell and we were well into a few margaritas, fish jumping everywhere, knew it was really going on when my gal said, lets not hurry, don't turn on the engine, quiet is nice, lets go slow., we will get to the next paradise soon enough...and we did, well stocked up on Subic Bay, yankee style provisions, a full tank of diesel and 4 months of hiking, snorkeling, fishing and diving to get us ready for two months of trekking in the Himalaya....


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

ccriders said:


> I've read elsewhere here that the Jordan Series Drogue accomplishes the same calming in storm situations. Would you care to compare and contrast heaving-to vs jsd? Also what boat configurations make heaving to difficult? Would the jsd work where heaving-to won't? Has "lying a hull" been discounted?
> Thanks,
> John


As others have already said, they're all quite different tactics, and as always, _IT DEPENDS_ on a number of different factors whether one is better suited than another...

I view the drogue as a heavier weather tactic of a more final resort, than heaving-to... The beauty of heaving-to, is that with the right boat, it can be accomplished so easily. Likewise, when you want to resume sailing, there's nothing to it... But, once a drogue or para-anchor has gone into the water, you've got your work cut out for you retrieving the gear, and getting underway again... For that reason, it's a tactic best reserved for a prolonged period of heavy weather, as opposed to the sort of 'rest stop' that heaving-to can so easily afford...

That's why I rate a boat's ability to heave-to as one of the most important characteristics when speaking of a boat's suitability for offshore sailing... And, why I view many of today's production offerings - with their flat bottoms, high freeboard, high aspect underwater appendages, and so on - distinctly less desirable as a choice for shorthanded offshore sailing, where a boat should be expected to take care of her crew, when left to her own devices...

Many people dismiss lying ahull out of hand, but I wouldn't be so quick to do so in less than extreme conditions, and the absence of large breaking seas. Again, depends entirely upon the boat. Halfway to Bermuda, I found out quite by accident that my own boat has the ability to lie ahull very comfortably in the right circumstances. I encountered a brief gale near the north wall of the Gulf Stream, and decided to park it for awhile. While setting up for heaving-to, between dropping the main and getting ready to hoist the trysail, I noticed I was getting a perfect sideways drift downwind, and the creation of the often mythical slick to windward... the effect of such a slick really has to be seen to be believed. As a result, I simply lay ahull for about 6-8 hours in mostly 40 knots gusting to 50, never once being struck by a breaking wave of any significance, and the decks remaining essentially dry... So, there are times where it can be a viable tactic, but you really need the right boat. Most modern designs under bare poles will want to sail out from beneath their slick. Helps to have a lot of hull volume beneath the waterline, a deep forefoot, and a rig placement close to the center of the boat...

Like this "outmoded" design, for instance...


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Minnewaska said:


> I've recemtly become curious whether one can run a JSD off the bow, like a parachute.


Yes... and no.

It's important to break up the _JSD tactic_ into it's separate components. It is a drag device, just like a parachute, but achieves it's drag through multiple cones instead of one big cone. It is steamed from the stern with a bridle, and it is designed to not have enough drag to stop the boat but rather to significantly slow it so waves will go under the boat. It's also important to note here that it slows the boat down to just a couple of knots of boat speed, whereas a traditional drogue from the stern usually only slows you a little and requires active steering. A JSD is a passive technique. You toss it off the stern and you can go below and are not required to steer.

A _parachute tactic_ involves streaming a big enough parachute from the bow to stop the boat cold, which is part of why the loads are so huge and chutes are often lost (according to the Drag Devices Database DDD)

Part of the success of the JSD tactic is the bridle. It's also why (I believe) chutes work better with multi-hulls and why Larry Pardey's tactic works (for smaller boats). A bridle can't easily be set on a mono-hull as the beam is too far back to be useful without chafe. From the stern, you can space the bridle legs far apart and thus keep your stem always pointed into the waves.

A JSD is also designed to not completely stop the boat, thus lessening the loads and impact as well as softening the motion of the passing waves. This can not be done from the bow as the boat would slip backwards and damage the rudder. A JSD could be constructed to have more drag by adding 2-3x as many cones and it would stop you cold. At this point it would act more like a parachute from the bow but with the possible advantage of not having the chute collapse. In addition, not having the single drag component means not having to worry about paying out enough rode to match the wave trains (that trick always looks so easy in the books doesn't it?).

To answer your question, yes a series drogue of sufficient size could be used (with improved effect IMHO) from the bow, but it would not really resemble the JSD tactic that bears Jordan's name.

MedSailor


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

Have laid a-hull and hove-to in varying conditions from strong to positively wild. Have had waves break alongside and roll my boat onto it's side - I will never again allow my boat to stand still in the water for any reason.

Whatever drogues one uses are personal choice but IMHO the boat needs to be stopped from surfing and no more - continue on my way even though the course may not be exactly the chosen one. Also important to cut across the bad weather using the Buys-Ballot assessment of the location of the low pressure - that will get you into better weather sooner.

But park off in bad weather? Not for me. Not again.


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## vega1860 (Dec 18, 2006)

JonEisberg said:


> Your post gets to the heart of a point I've tried to make repeatedly, how many people's attitude towards offshore sailing and passagemaking has changed as 'Voyaging' has morphed into more of a 'Lifestyle', as opposed as an 'Activity' based upon a love of sailing, combined with a heavy dose of wanderlust...
> 
> It's amazing how few cruisers today seem to view passagemaking as a truly unique adventure, and something to savor, or revel in... Most view passages with trepidation, and as something simply to be _ENDURED_ as the price of admission to the next destination where they can once again, begin living the Cruising Lifestyle... Really a pity, how many folks really don't appreciate the actual _SAILING_, and the rare ability in today's world to truly "check out", and experience the raw beauty of nature to be found out there, perhaps even managing to go a day or two without checking email, or posting to a blog...
> 
> ...


 Can't think of anything to add. As much as we have enjoyed harbor hopping from one spectacular, indescribably beautiful, anchorage to the next, we find ourselves wanting to head out to sea for a long passage again.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

MedSailor said:


> .....To answer your question, yes a series drogue of sufficient size could be used (with improved effect IMHO) from the bow, but it would not really resemble the JSD tactic that bears Jordan's name.
> 
> MedSailor


I understand the stated intent of the jsd, as a method that allows (actually requires) the boat to continue sailing in a more controlled fashion.

You make a very good point, if one were to set one off the bow, it would likely require larger chutes than designed from the stern. I was thinking that the series of chutes was a good way to distribute loads and avoid the single chute from pulling through the wave face.


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

JonEisberg said:


> Everyone seems to want to get a passage over with as quickly as possible, and view something like heaving-to, or reducing sail at night when squalls might be encountered, as undesirable tactics that will only serve to prolong the 'misery' of offshore sailing...


Except that the art of sailing generally includes wanting to make the boat do its best and that generally speaks to short passage times. So what seems to one sailor like an unnecessary dash from one place to another, to another sailor it is the essence of sailing the boat correctly and is viewed as a successful voyage.



JonEisberg said:


> But I have experienced a sort of 'Atlantic High' on some passages, and it is something very special indeed, when you actually manage to have somewhat mixed feelings upon arriving at your destination, tinged with a bit of regret that the sailing is nearly over...


But I don't differ from that sentiment.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Jon with your having more experience you've said it just right. I have about a dozen real off shore passages of more than 5-7 days but from the first had that mixed feeling of joy and regret at the time of the land fall. Although storms made for possibilities of brown pants coastal or offshore find pleasure when the boat is working hard and cleaving the seas. Remember doing a bermuda. Periodically the boat would disappear with just the mast stub showing. Then it would rise and we thundered along. After about a half hour of this started to giggle. A crew came up (I was alone on deck). He clipped in then looked around and gave me beatific smile. Not a word was spoken. We took turns surfing the boat. It doesn't have to be sunny with fair winds to get that peaceful totally in the moment egoless and stress less feeling. I only get that rarely coastal. I gotten at least a moment or two of it on each passage I've ever done.
BTW- the JSD works fine on more modern cruisers. If you have some one to tail with a power winch not that hard to retrieve. Yet to use it in a storm so that's just an opinion for now. Hassle is to put back correctly into the device they give you with it.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Omatako said:


> > Originally Posted by JonEisberg
> >
> > Everyone seems to want to get a passage over with as quickly as possible, and view something like heaving-to, or reducing sail at night when squalls might be encountered, as undesirable tactics that will only serve to prolong the 'misery' of offshore sailing...
> 
> ...


Sure, but I would also suggest that the art of sailing - and cruising in particular - also includes getting the boat and its crew to the destination in one piece 

My reference to heaving-to was a follow-up to the point I first made in Post #45, which was a reply to another poster's contention that one of the things that make offshore sailing more stressful is the possibility of the boat suffering damage and gear breakage, and the crew becoming fatigued, as a result to a prolonged exposure to heavy weather. I'm not endorsing heaving-to as the ultimate survival storm tactic, but rather as a very simple means of mitigating the punishment a boat and crew might be dealt by trying conditions encountered on a passage... Hell, even racers sometimes acknowledge that to finish first, you first have to finish, and that by throttling back one can greatly reduce the risk of gear breakage, injury to crew, and so on...

It's an option that has certainly worked well for many successful cruisers over the years. The Hiscocks, for one, as already mentioned. John and Phyllis on MORGAN'S CLOUD are others who are big proponents of heaving-to. Even though they sail a much bigger and heavier boat than most of us do, they freely admit that whenever they're beating into anything approaching 25 knots or so, unless there's some compelling tactical necessity to keep soldiering on, they will always park the boat until conditions moderate... And, I met an Austrian couple last summer in Nova Scotia who have been out for about 20 years now, probably embarking on their third circumnavigation, and who have done a lot of high latitude sailing, etc... They sail an Alubat, a great boat but one not especially weatherly, and they jokingly confess they're almost embarrassed to admit how often they resort to the tactic when the going gets tough...


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## ccriders (Jul 8, 2006)

Heaving-to when beating in 25 knots or so. Is this a good threshold? Seems you could have 25 knots for several days. When I get 20, gusting to 25+, I find the chop is causing more problems than is the wind. Is this so on an ocean passage? At what wind speeds does one deploy a JSD?
John


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

ccriders said:


> Heaving-to when beating in 25 knots or so. Is this a good threshold? Seems you could have 25 knots for several days. When I get 20, gusting to 25+, I find the chop is causing more problems than is the wind. Is this so on an ocean passage? At what wind speeds does one deploy a JSD?
> John


Geesh, I hope not. I just spent an entire week sailing in the Virgin Islands with 25kts everyday. Reefed maybe.

I'm sure it depends on the boat and the specific sea condition. We had maybe 5 ft seas, but short interval, at least on the south side of the islands. 44 ft boat.

One can heave to whenever they want, just to take a break. But needing to, because the stink is up, probably doesn't start till a gale (which we also had for one passage and still didn't heave to  )


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

What's with all the "anxiety"?


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

ccriders said:


> Heaving-to when beating in 25 knots or so. Is this a good threshold? Seems you could have 25 knots for several days. When I get 20, gusting to 25+, I find the chop is causing more problems than is the wind. Is this so on an ocean passage? At what wind speeds does one deploy a JSD?
> John


Of course not, I'm only saying that the "threshold" for heaving-to could well be whenever it occurs to you that it might be a good idea...

I simply mentioned that for John Harries and Phyllis Nickel, sailing a 58' aluminum cutter, their personal choice to do so might often come a bit sooner than one might expect from such seasoned voyagers...

They've sailed over 100K miles, several transatlantics, ventured as far north as Svalbard, and have compiled THE cruising guide to Norway... Damn, just imagine all the places they might have made it to, if they hadn't wimped out and wasted all that time spent heaving-to every time the going to weather got tough, eh?


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Minnie- went from peters to north sound in that crap. Right on the nose the whole time. But got to see 170-200' sailboats race around Virgin Gorda for the next three days. It was glorious. Like you say with any decent boat and reefed down and luffing in the gusts not an issue. But if on passage can see the wisdom of taking a break as Jon suggests. 
I've come to believe both coastal and offshore schedules are a major contributor to stress. Be it to meet a plane schedule, to get to mooring before they are all filled up, t return to work. In any case whatever the schedule is you are under the gun to get to a specific place by a specific time and mother nature often just doesn't care. I envy those who are totally free of such constraints.


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

JonEisberg said:


> It's an option that has certainly worked well for many successful cruisers over the years. The Hiscocks, for one, as already mentioned.


As I recall reading Hiscock, he made a habit of stopping his boat (heaving to) even in benign weather to get a good night's sleep almost as a routine.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

outbound said:


> This leads me to believe coastal sailing maybe more stressful, more dangerous to boat and crew and require a greater sense of alertness.
> 
> If you value your life you won't go offshore unless in an fully found offshore capable boat. Near shore "whatever- it will serve.
> In short although "it's waves not the wind that will kill you" is true. It's also true it's the hard edges of the ocean that create a lot of the stress along with the other idiots in ships and boats.
> I wonder if those more experienced than me agree that coastal is more stressful and quite possibly more dangerous.





JonEisberg said:


> Absolutely, but with one important caveat... That the boat you be taking "offshore" be well suited to handling whatever it might encounter out there, and not place excessive demands upon a shorthanded crew...
> 
> Otherwise, all things being equal, there's little comparison between the amount of stuff that can go wrong, or the potential consequences thereof, between coastal and open water sailing...


Oh look! It's the paradox twins!

You guys crack me up. So "coastal boats" are "inferior" to "offshore" boats - "not built to handle the real stuff" - when coastal is actually more risky than offshore?

Puuuhhhhhhlllleeeease.

Here's the bottom line - offshore is WAY easier than coastal, barring a survival storm. If nothing else, it simply means that you have a much longer time between having to try to dock the damn boat with onlookers again.

BTW - Oyster Yachts is now following my Twitter account. Cool eh? You guys must be full of anxiety.


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## jerryrlitton (Oct 14, 2002)

smackdaddy said:


> BTW - Oyster Yachts is now following my Twitter account. Cool eh? You guys must be full of anxiety.


Because almost everyone can appreciate a little humor, Even Oyster Yachts. BTW true ref docks and onlookers.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> .......
> BTW - Oyster Yachts is now following my Twitter account. Cool eh? ......


Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Omatako said:


> As I recall reading Hiscock, he made a habit of stopping his boat (heaving to) even in benign weather to get a good night's sleep almost as a routine.


Well, given the fact they sailed around the world 3 times during an era when such voyaging in small yachts was exceedingly rare, without ever losing a boat or a rig, I'd say it worked pretty well for them... 

Besides, Eric was practically blind... Without the benefits of radar, AIS, and all the rest, theirs was probably a pretty sensible approach...


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> Oh look! It's the paradox twins!
> 
> You guys crack me up. So "coastal boats" are "inferior" to "offshore" boats - "not built to handle the real stuff" - when coastal is actually more risky than offshore?
> 
> Puuuhhhhhhlllleeeease.


I know it's fun to cherry-pick excerpts, but try to keep up with the bigger picture, OK?



JonEisberg said:


> > Originally Posted by chall03
> >
> > Thus is the silliness of the Bluewater vs Coastal debate. It is a nonsense. If a boat can't take heavy weather then it is not a boat I would wish to be in 2 miles from shore or 200 miles from shore.
> 
> ...





smackdaddy said:


> Here's the bottom line - offshore is WAY easier than coastal, barring a survival storm.


Sometimes it is, and sometimes it isn't...

At least, I think that's probably the prevailing opinion of sailors who have actually been offshore...


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

Agreed.

The moment you take every piece of water on this earth and without reference to seasons, prevailing weather and sea conditions, local geography and access to safe harbour categorise all of it into two rather ambiguous categorises of _offshore_ and _coastal_ and then use this categorisation to shape both your vessel choice and sailing philosophy then you are misguided.

Perhaps the categorisation is of some use for a section of the East Coast of the US? Pretty much everywhere else I can think of it is unhelpful.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

My point is precisely the same point you both made earlier - this "line" between "coastal boats" and "blue water boats" is extremely fuzzy. You guys are underscoring that with every post.

That's why, as I've said a million times, the production boat debate is dead. Dead. I think we all seem to agree.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> That's why, as I've said a million times, the production boat debate is dead. Dead. I think we all seem to agree.


Uhhhh, no... Not ALL of us seem to agree...

Hiowever, the "debate" may as well be dead, given the obstinate refusal on the part of some to even _CONSIDER_ the opinion or experience of others, that many of today's production offerings just _MIGHT_ possess characteristics that are less than desirable for offshore passagemaking...


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Heh-heh. But they're perfectly suited to coastal sailing. Pesky paradoxes.



JonEisberg said:


> Also, the extent to which a boat might be 'battered' by heavy weather offshore is generally, in my view, greatly overstated...
> 
> In addition, boats are hardly "often lost" offshore when things go wrong, such catastrophic events are actually rather rare...


Or maybe we're just talking tankage again?


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> Heh-heh. *But they're perfectly suited to coastal sailing.* Pesky paradoxes.


Seems like your imagination has gotten the best of you, yet again... But if putting words in my mouth helps your feel like you're _Winning_, go for it...


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

smackdaddy said:


> My point is precisely the same point you both made earlier - this "line" between "coastal boats" and "blue water boats" is extremely fuzzy.


Well actually my point was there is no line to be fuzzy, because the entire paradigm is flawed.

Rather than _bluewater_ vs _coastal_ I think it is more meaningful to ask yourself two questions when selecting a cruising boat.

1. How long do you want to cruise for ?

a)Short term(A season)
b)Medium term(more than a season) 
c)Long term( several years, circumnavigation)

2. Where do you want to cruise ?

a) Single cruising ground. 
b) Multiple cruising grounds with at least one in season trade wind ocean crossing.
c) Everywhere

Depending on the answers to these questions you then can begin to make some more meaningful choices.

In terms of long term cruising I am in complete agreement with Jon, there are boats far better designed and built for this purpose than others. At the same time I would have no issue crewing on a Beneteau for the ARC depending on who was the skipper


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

chall03 said:


> Agreed.
> 
> The moment you take every piece of water on this earth and without reference to seasons, prevailing weather and sea conditions, local geography and access to safe harbour categorise all of it into two rather ambiguous categorises of _offshore_ and _coastal_ and then use this categorisation to shape both your vessel choice and sailing philosophy then you are misguided.
> 
> *Perhaps the categorisation is of some use for a section of the East Coast of the US? Pretty much everywhere else I can think of it is unhelpful.*


That's a very good point that I'm afraid many tend to overlook, as a significant percentage of these discussions tend to be informed by sailors mostly accustomed to cruising along the US East coast...

An area numerous harbors of refuge strategically spaced, extremely well charted and with excellent weather forecasting... Rarely out of cell phone or VHF range of the coast, or beyond the reach of the rapid response from Sea Tow or the Coast Guard, or convenient access to and infrastructure of boatyards/mechanics/suppliers to assist when problems arise...

Venture beyond the friendly confines of such a developed and popular cruising ground, and things can begin to change pretty quickly...


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Smackie
Methinks you are not listening well. Multiple people in multiple ways have expressed to you the truism-there are good boats and not so good boats. This is true at all price points,all ages of vessels, whether one offs or production, multi or monohullls. Good is defined in context of usage.
Several have pointed out the trends in current non high end production boats that detract from ease, comfort, safety, durability,serviceability in a long term distance cruising environment.
The mandate is different. Not better or worse just different. A professional captain who runs a new Bene in the mid 50s was on my boat and I've been on his boat several times. His boat is kicker. Wicked sound system, great icemaker, four zones of AC. He has nearly no storage for parts or tools. Rubbermaid containers fill one aft cabin. Even had trouble storing provisions for passage. Nor a place to work without messing up his interior.
At anchor I would much rather be on his boat. I could have many good friends/family with me. Cockpit parties are awesome.So much room. Nobody would wait for a head. Day to day moving around- not so much.
Returning to gist of this thread.
One thing that I hope is due to my inexperience and to date lack of need to date is the stress of fixing something truly broken while at sea. I've learned when anything breaks buy three. One to replace and two spares. But other than filters, impellers and the like have yet needed to actually fix anything significant. Having lost flexibility and strength with aging fixing stuff when not moving is difficult enough. For me this is a stress offshore that is not as germane coastal.


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

Current COASTAL weather forecast here in NSW. 








These are average windspeeds and wave heights with gusts to be expected at 40% higher than the averages given.
These so called East Coast lows develop rapidly here are unpredictable and not always as accurately forecast as this one.

We are in Newcastle harbour on the NSW coast of Australia. We managed to get in here ok on the weekend before conditions worsened. North of here, in these conditions, there is no port you could enter safely for well over 500 nm.

Some might try for Coffs Harbour 250nm north, but officially that is closed, and I would not attempt it.

I would sail/motor like the clappers seaward ( towards bluewater) as far as I could as quickly as I could before conditions prohibited.

This is not abnormal here. It is seasonal and expected.

So again can someone please explain to me this whole coastal is easy vs bluewater is doom and gloom thing?


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

* "So again can someone please explain to me this whole coastal is easy vs bluewater is doom and gloom thing?" *

Chall, come on man, it's all the ICW snowbirds whinging here...


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

aeventyr60 said:


> * "So again can someone please explain to me this whole coastal is easy vs bluewater is doom and gloom thing?" *
> 
> Chall, come on man, it's all the ICW snowbirds whinging here...


LOL!

It can be pretty astounding, how many folks out there appear to think the whole world is like the US Eastern seaboard...

Just make sure your Sea Tow policy is current, your EPIRB battery fresh, and you're good to go anywhere, right?



Not entirely surprising so much of this "Coastal vs. Offshore" is informed by US East coast or Great Lakes sailors... Our 'Sailing Capitals' are Newport and Annapolis, for instance, our most prominent sailing publications based in RI, and most of America's boatbuilders located in regions where sailing in largely protected waters is commonplace... Yep, we Americans can definitely become pretty spoiled by our widespread Cushy Sailing Grounds... 

Sailors from places like South Africa, or the Atlantic coast of France, would have a hearty chuckle over much of this 'Coastal vs. Offshore' debate...


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

JonEisberg said:


> LOL!
> 
> It can be pretty astounding, how many folks out there appear to think the whole world is like the US Eastern seaboard...
> 
> Just make sure your Sea Tow policy is current, your EPIRB battery fresh, and you're good to go anywhere, right?


If you stay near land you are _safe_  The guy in the helicopter can always come and get you.

If you have a boat you don't trust _offshore_ and you are sailing it _coastal_ in conditions like these you will always try to run for a port rather than seeking searoom.

That can end badly.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Just wondering. I'm from the east coast. My home port is a few miles from Newport. I snow bird ( abet to eastern Caribbean- hate the ditch). 
Yet I find myself often much less stressed when the depth no longer works. 
? I'm I just an oddball? Are my peers and friends? Just about done prepping the boat and arranging crew. Will wait to put the plumbers putty in the windlass and ding on the deck. Arranged the diver. But still want to get a week cruise with the bride in before leaving. But been chatting with crew. They seem to be of similar mindset. We seem to worry more about bumper cars in the small harbors here than Chas and Buffy about the deep blue but still believe it's unwise to generalize. Chas and Buffy can be kick ass passagemakers. You never know.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

outbound said:


> Smackie
> Methinks you are not listening well. Multiple people in multiple ways have expressed to you the truism-there are good boats and not so good boats. This is true at all price points,all ages of vessels, whether one offs or production, multi or monohullls. Good is defined in context of usage.
> Several have pointed out the trends in current non high end production boats that detract from ease, comfort, safety, durability,serviceability in a long term distance cruising environment.
> The mandate is different. Not better or worse just different. A professional captain who runs a new Bene in the mid 50s was on my boat and I've been on his boat several times. His boat is kicker. Wicked sound system, great icemaker, four zones of AC. He has nearly no storage for parts or tools. Rubbermaid containers fill one aft cabin. Even had trouble storing provisions for passage. Nor a place to work without messing up his interior.
> At anchor I would much rather be on his boat. I could have many good friends/family with me. Cockpit parties are awesome.So much room. Nobody would wait for a head. Day to day moving around- not so much.


Out, I don't really disagree with any of this. As Chall stated very well above, my contention is simply that the whole "blue water vs. production" paradigm is flawed. As I've always held here and elsewhere, rated production boats can readily handle offshore cruising...just like the "blue water boats" can. From there, it's simply a matter of preferences and priorities as you point out above.

So - I'm listening.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

I think there is general consensus you can catch really crappy weather anywhere, things can break anywhere coastal and offshore both carry their own dangers. Some the same. Many different. However I still contend that when things are going well and there is not another boat or ship on the horizon or any screen offshore is more peaceful and has a certain pleasant rhythm that's absent when coastal.
Emotionally you get into a rhythm. You forget the land based worlds concerns. You may even forget your concerns. It a zen like thing that for me at least is harder to achieve day sailing place to place even when the weather is good and the places engaging.


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