# 20' to 22' swing keel with small cuddy



## stickers11 (Apr 18, 2010)

Hello again,

I don't like redundant threads as much as the next guy, but in need of pretty specific information.

My dad and I are looking at going half-in on a small trailerable sailboat. I live in Vancouver, Canada, he is in inland WA state. We thought of getting something we could keep at a marina, say in Everett, during the sailing season.

Neither of us has much boating experience, so a forgiving boat would be preferred. Key is that it have a larger cockpit than an equal sized cruiser. Probably will be used for day outings and perhaps tow to other parts of the region....hence the swing keel. A small cuddy with room for two would be nice, definitely room for a portable head.

I'm thinking Tanzer, Catalina or early MacGregors would fit the bill, but are these not more cruisers? Suggestions welcome. My dad is eager to spend money, but I'd rather step back and do some research.

Thanks,
Matt


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

I would second your initial choices. Also consider a fixed shoal keel. With a long enough ramp you can trailer launch boats on trailers this size. I have seen people trailer launch boats up to 5' draft, but, you would need a particularly long/steep ramp.


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## JoeDiver (Feb 2, 2011)

Look hard at the Catalina 22....has everything you're looking for....priced very well....cult like following....lots of racing and raftups.....can't go wrong with it.


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## stickers11 (Apr 18, 2010)

What about a Catalina 18 for a first boat? Might be a bit small for 4 adults on a daysail? I like the specs and the looks of her...but might need to go a bit bigger.


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## garyguss (Oct 9, 2007)

San Juan 21 ... cheap to buy, will run rings around a Catalina, larger cockpit than a Catalina...









San Juan 21 Class Association


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Here's a YW search for 20-24 foot daysailers in the PNW and CA... some interesting ideas here.. some of these come with trailers.

Most will have more accommodation than you're looking for and many will have fixed keels or excessive draft for trailering, but this will give you an idea of what's on the market.

Something like an SJ 21 or C22 will probably provide most of what you're after and give you the option of overnighting on occasion.

If you're budget allows the Harbor 20s on this list look like fun, but I don't think they are available with a swing keel. From their class site, though, it seems many live on trailers...

In fact a search with 'swing keel' as a key word for the same area turned up zero results.

(Sail) Daysailer Boats For Sale


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## stickers11 (Apr 18, 2010)

Thanks Faster, I'll check out the search results. Looks like you're in neck of the woods. I'm actually New West as well...too bad we don't have a marina


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

stickers11 said:


> Thanks Faster, I'll check out the search results. Looks like you're in neck of the woods. I'm actually New West as well...too bad we don't have a marina


Too funny... when I read your OP I thought to myself 'I didn't know there was a Vancouver in California!"
Have you looked at the local Craigslist site for something?


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## stickers11 (Apr 18, 2010)

Often do, but seeing as my dad is state-side, and both he and the boat will reside there for the near future, I'm concentrating my search in the US.
I should fill out my profile so I don't look like such a stranger...


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## sealover (Jun 27, 2009)

I really like the Rhodes 22 (built by General Boats) -- that's what I'd have if I wanted to keep it in a marina. Large comfortable cockpit, plus lots of neat things that make setting off easier for a short handed crew. (in-mast furling, for one) You can add the new gizmos to the older ones. But they don't seem to be as cheap, and they aren't real plentiful. Being built in NC I bet they're even harder to find on the West Coast. I love my Venture 17 (MacGregor) The 21 and 22 foot versions are a lot of boat for hardly any money. They tow easily too. You didn't say what sort of vehicle you're going to be towing with. The Venture 21 could be towed with a transverse engine V6 car/crossover. The Rhodes you'd probably want a pickup truck or SUV to tow it any distance.


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## stickers11 (Apr 18, 2010)

Towing would be no problem, my dad still has a diesel truck kicking around.


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## lillia28 (Aug 12, 2011)

Being 6'3", I have certain biases, but check out a few 25 foot boats. For my purposes, the Macgregor 22 cabin was useless, I couldn't sit up straight in it. That being said, I had the boat for 9 years and loved every minute. Macs are much lighter than Catalinas or O'Days. Many Macgregors were not fitted with a full complement of sail controls, are likely to be less expensive to buy and maintain, easiler to launch, retrieve and tow. The best boat is one you will sail a lot. Pick the "easiest" (how ever you define easy) one and the one that makes you smile when you look at it. The more times you turn around to look at it as you walk away, the better that boat is for you.
Lou


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

I think the Rhodes 22 is enough of a cult boat that it will be hard to find. I have seen a few bought sight-unseen.


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## stickers11 (Apr 18, 2010)

Any thoughts on this listing?
O'day 222, 1984, Eagle Mountain Lake, Fort Worth, Texas, sailboat for sale from Sailing Texas

To me this model looks to have both a swing keel, but also some shoal draft...am I correct?
Any comments on shoal keel vs. pure swing keel?


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## Southron Spirit (Dec 3, 2011)

look at a north american 23 or spirit 23


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

stickers11 said:


> Any thoughts on this listing?
> 
> To me this model looks to have both a swing keel, but also some shoal draft...am I correct?
> Any comments on shoal keel vs. pure swing keel?


Yes, it has a short keel with a CB inside it.










Probably makes getting it on a trailer a bit more of an issue, but if the board is housed in a keel then the interior is more open because the cb trunk will be less of an intrusion, if at all. You'll also have some more directional stability with the board up.

One thing... if you are ever sailing with the board up, remember your rudder will be deeper than your keel.


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## stickers11 (Apr 18, 2010)

I don't want to throw this tread off course, but quickly, how much stock should you place in vehicle recommended towing capacity? Reason I ask, the hitch for a given model of car gives a much greater load capacity than the car manufacturer does. Why would would a hitch manufacturer offer a higher spec than the vehicle it is designed for? If there is a thread already discussing this please send me there...


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## sealover (Jun 27, 2009)

Mercedes-Benz USA says "DON'T TOW WITH YOUR CAR" while my same exact car in Europe is rated to tow over 4000 lbs. It's not the car you need to worry about. It's the lawyers. Seems like the automakers think we're going to try to qualify for Talladega while towing, and will tow the heaviest trailer allowed at 75 mph through the Rockies so they say "don't tow" or give a healthy car a low rating. When towing on the highway I'm in the right lane, going pretty close to the speed limit. (a little above in preparation for a long hill, and a little under toward the crest) I certainly wouldn't try towing a tri-axle with a Smart car of course, but check similar models or International specs -- maybe your car can tow more than you think. Just know you might be in some hot water if you're involved in an accident and your trailer exceeds the tow rating. My "DON'T TOW" car tows just fine -- it's Rear-wheel-drive, torquey, and has gigantic 4-piston fixed caliper disk brakes. It's like it was made to tow.


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## stickers11 (Apr 18, 2010)

Back to boats. What about the Precision 18? A bit smaller than a 20-22' but might be easier to tow. Seems to have decent ballast, looks bit inside and large cockpit. Anyone have any experience with this boat?


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## JoeDiver (Feb 2, 2011)

If you're seriously interested in that Oday, let me know. My boat is on Eagle Mountain, and that Oday is at Harbor One, my old marina. I can swing by, take a look at it and take some better pics for you....if you want.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

stickers11 said:


> Hello again,
> 
> I don't like redundant threads as much as the next guy, but in need of pretty specific information.
> 
> ...


Take a look at the San Juan 23. Exactly what your looking for. had many trips to the San Juans, Gulf Islands and Puget Sound in this little gem....Heck, I even lived aboard for 6 months, before I got the big boat...


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## MarkCK (Jan 4, 2009)

stickers11 said:


> Back to boats. What about the Precision 18? A bit smaller than a 20-22' but might be easier to tow. Seems to have decent ballast, looks bit inside and large cockpit. Anyone have any experience with this boat?


Precision makes a quality boat. The 18 has a large following in the trailer sailor world. Precision puts a little more emphasis on speed and performance than cruising amenities. I don't think you could go wrong if 18' is enough boat for you. They also make some larger boats and both the 21 and the 23 are quality boats.


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## RichardElliott (Sep 24, 2001)

Try to locate a used Ranger 20, built in Kent,WA. It was called the "UNsinkable Molly Brown" until the movie copyright people got after them. Stub keel with CB, cuddy cabin with vee berth and room for a portapotty. Most have a dodger with aft canvas to enclose the cabin. I owned two of them, before and after a Catalina 25. It has a bridge deck with the traveler. A superb rig for single handing. My wife and I spent two weeks aboard in Desolation Sound, trailering from the Columbiia River.


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## CarbonSink62 (Sep 29, 2011)

I would recommend the Catalina Capri 22; it is basically a C-18 with 4 feet of cockpit added. Down below is a port-o-potti and 2 quarter berths, the rest is all cockpit.

I'm not sure about the keel configs available; I'm pretty sure I've seen Wing (2' 6") and Fin (3' 6"). The C-22 has a swing keel (2' 0" & 5' 0") so maybe that is available as well.


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## lans0012 (Jul 16, 2008)

*Chrysler 20, 22*

We used to have a Chrysler 20. It was a well made boat that sailed well and had a swing keel. We always admired the neighbor's chrysler 22 as well. These can usually be found very cheaply.

A Catalina 22 has a bigger cabin though and there are generally more to chose from in just about any market.

In Florida Compacs are very popular. The compac 19 and 23 are very good boats and generally thought of as more seaworthy than catalinas and have full keels but a shallow draft. They are usually more expensive.

If you've got the dough. Check out the compac 23 pilot house. They are new this year. I checked it out at the St. Pete boat show and I have to say it was very sweet.


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## JoeDiver (Feb 2, 2011)

Catalina 22

Capri 18

Catalina 22

C250

Catalina 22

Just a few to look at. I was out at the lake yesterday to do some work on my boat. Took a look at that Oday...seems nice and clean, well equipped. It's got a roller furler, fractional.


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## stickers11 (Apr 18, 2010)

Thanks JoeDiver for the links and for checking out that boat! Thanks everyone else for your suggestions and pointers. Everyone seems a forgiving and helpful bunch. Been to other forums where after they find out you're a "newby", kindly suggest you go play somewhere else


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## Andyman (Jul 20, 2007)

Aquarius 23's are great boats and solidly built . Easy to sail, huge cockpit and big v-berth. I see them for sail up in your area every now and then. Very trailerable. I pull mine with a Dodge Dakota.


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

FWIW, I used to have a Catalina 22, and now own an Oday 23. An Oday 22 was docked across from me for several years and I know the boat fairly well.

I like the Oday stub keel/centerboard set up better than the Catalina 22 swing keel. The Oday board is controlled by a single line lead into the cockpit. No cranks, no ratchets. The ballast is safely and permanently encapsulated in the stub keel. The Catalina doesn't really have a centerboard; its really a swing keel. All of the boat's ballast is held to the boat by one pin. That keel is controlled by a crank/steel cable set up. Now, Catalina has made thousands of these things and have worked out most of the bugs, but it is still another piece of equipment subject to the harsh marine environment that needs maintenance and can fail. Don't get me wrong: the Catalina is a great boat. There are thousands of them with active owners' associations, and Catalina itself is still in business to support your boat. You won't go wrong with a C-22.

However, as I said, I like the Oday better. One other thing: the head in a Catalina is (at best) behind a curtain under the cusions of the v-berth. On the Oday, its behind a door in its own "compartment". Never underestimate the value of this feature when the ladies are aboard, even if its only for a daysail.


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## Waltthesalt (Sep 22, 2009)

If money's no object you may want to consider a Cornish Shrimper. Interesting boat


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## 75R20 (Jun 20, 2008)

I'll second the Kent Ranger 20 as a great boat, I currently own 1 and have owned another. They are local for you (100 miles) and close for dad. They sail very well, weigh 1550 lbs. and trailer great. 1 healthy person can set the mast in place and be sailing from trailer in 30/45 minutes. Active forums both here in Seattle, and in Portland, with at least one active Sailmaker, and several of the original vendors still at the same addresses that they were when the boat was built. Approx 700 boats were built with some even being built in Salt Lake City. 
Mine is in the water, If you or dad want to see it, let me know....They come up for sail on the Forums/Craigslist but you have to be fast, as they sell quickly. After the snow stops/melts I'm willing to go for a sail if you are interested. I'm on Lake Washington, near downtown.
Let me know
Kary
S/V Mariah
*49080


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## g0twind (Oct 5, 2010)

I vote for a Paceship PY23, but I'm a little biased.....

Slightly larger than a C22, built strong and can be trailered. (However, I wouldn't want to trailer all the time)


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## stickers11 (Apr 18, 2010)

Down for a visit in Goldendale, WA. Drove down to Portland today and had a look at a Ranger 20 at Cascade Locks. Here is the listing. Was the dodger a standard feature? The listing does not mention one. What about the price? No outboard...seems on the high side for what I have seen.

Sailboat,1975 Ranger 20


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## 75R20 (Jun 20, 2008)

The price in not bad BUT........condition is everything. The dodger was an option and a replacement is ~ $550.00 (just got a new one from the original vendor 2 years ago) that boat has what we call the travel/storage cover on it. Sails = it needs a genoa, and they are hard to find and ~600.00 new. I have lots of INFO on the boat, feel free to contact me if you need more/have questions....I'm 1 of the more active R20 owners around, and have done many up-grades/changes to my R20.
Kary
S/V Mariah
#49080


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## stickers11 (Apr 18, 2010)

Thought I would provide an update. My folks moving back up to BC and my dad still wants to get a boat, he's getting older and does not want to put it off indefinitely. I've been rereading all the great suggestions and starting to lean towards a San Juan 21 or a Kent Ranger. The bonus is once he's up here we can store the boat on dry land over winter. I guess my only issue with the San Juans is that the fleet is getting older. Not sure if that should be a worry on a fiberglass boat. Many are in the 40 year-old area. Should I let this bother me?


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## chip (Oct 23, 2008)

I think condition is more important than age with anything that you'd be interested in. I wouldn't get hung up on a specific model...none of these is going to be your boat to live on or to take you around the world. I'd just see what's for sale in your area, go look at them, and buy one that looks good. Find someone to go look at it with you if you don't know what you're looking at. Get sailing. It's been almost 2 years since your original post...you could have been pondering your perfect San Juan purchase from the cockpit of your Catalina 22!

It's not about Ms. Right in this price range. It's Ms. Right Now.


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## stickers11 (Apr 18, 2010)

You are absolutely right. Circumstances and finances have not been right up until now...but I am going to make this happen. Things are falling into place!


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

A Catalina 22 will do the job AND be relatively easy to sell on after a year or two. 

I am biased because I had the UK version and it looked after me well on the West Coast of Scotland and the Adriatic. 

Cracking little boat, sure some others are fast but it gets there.


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## Ziaduck (Jul 25, 2008)

What are your plans now? Will you always trailer-sail the boat, or will you keep it in a slip for part of the year? Will you take the boat to other waters? A trailer-sailor is different from a trailerable boat, and your intended use can make one a good choice and the other bad.


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## gedaggett (Oct 21, 2008)

I will put my 2 cents in on this (which may only be actually worth 1 cent). I am partial to Macgregor if you get the right one. The the older swing keel options are great boats. I sailed my MacGregor 222 (pop top for extra room at dock/mooring) THe boat sails like a much bigger boat and would routinely have it out on Lake Michigan in 4-6 footers and she handled it like a champ. The cockpit is roomy enough on the 22 footer for 4 adults to sit comfortably. The boat is well balanced. If you could find a MacGregor 25 w/ swing keel that could be a great boat for you. 

That being said here are some other quality boats that could fit the bill. 

Cal 21
Chrysler 20 0r 22 (22 is feels like a much bigger boat) 
Catalina 22
San Jaun 

I second what Jeff said. Find a decent boat in decent condition and go for it. Each of these boats has pro's and con's and you will learn to deal with them. Just make sure your keel lifting cable is good and the hull and deck is in good shape. I would say make sure the main sail is in good shape and the jibs can be had for pretty cheep (I had 5 jibs that cost me less than $500 collectively) Everything else on those boats is relatively inexpensive. 

Just stay away from Bay-liner Buccaneers (really poor design) and MacGregor M's (Power boat and sailboat combo that doesn't do either very well at all.)


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## tschmidty (Sep 25, 2008)

As above the big question is whether you are going to trailer every time or keep it in a slip. A swing keel will be easier to launch but I tend to prefer the shoal keel/CB style (Oday, Compac, Precision) simply because they are more stable with the board up. But really it does come down to price and availability.

So think about all that carefully and then go buy this boat and go sailing.

MacGregor Sailboat w/Trailer $500

Sort of kidding but check out a yahoo group call freesailboats. They post boats under $1000 and even free. Most are projects but not all, there are some great deals and now is the time of year to look since people don't want to deal with them over the winter.

I am a fan of get something close to what you want, don't obsess now. Get a boat, sail it and you'll have a great time and learn more about what you want in your next boat.


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## gedaggett (Oct 21, 2008)

tschmidty said:


> As above the big question is whether you are going to trailer every time or keep it in a slip. A swing keel will be easier to launch but I tend to prefer the shoal keel/CB style (Oday, Compac, Precision) simply because they are more stable with the board up. But really it does come down to price and availability.


The MacGregor 22 , 222, 24 and 25 all have 500lbs in the locking swing keel. The draft down is about 5 feet. I have had my old 222 in gust up to 18 knots with full main and 90 jib and she put the rail in the water and then stiffened up. If you are sailing more shallow waters you simply bring the keel up halfway and you are shoal draft (performance is a bit different with center of gravity farther aft but still fine.) Catalina and Cal are similar setups. I never had an issue with the boats balance or feeling top heavy. The transverse cannot be always be said about a shoal draft 24 footer or less. On main only my boat would handle 25knts and fly. Personal opinion is that a deeper heavy swing keel is pretty good setup.


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## tschmidty (Sep 25, 2008)

Oh, no question that a swing keel can be stable and I wouldn't dissuade anyone at all. Putting the weight further down definitely helps and allows you to get more stability from less ballast, which makes trailering easier (lighter overall) and launching easier since you don't have to float the boat as much. Note that I did point him to the MacGregor with the swing keel and would have not have turned down a boat with one. There are the disadvantages of a lot of weight hanging on one pivot bolt, more weight to crank up and down, and they are definitely tippier with the board up but not generally all that bad. I also don't like the clunking you can get with a swing keel that's not locked down and then there is the whole 'lock the keel down' thing. But again nothing that would really dissuade me from owning one.

Boats with shoal keel/CB setups tend to have a lot more ballast to compensate for the weight being shallower which makes them less desirable to tow (heavier) and harder to launch (higher on trailer). The upsides are that you can lose the centerboard and they still sail pretty well and it also really opens up the interior since you don't have the keel trunk.

Either way you will have fun so get out there and sail!


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## gedaggett (Oct 21, 2008)

@ tschmidty....Agreed


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## TerryBradley (Feb 28, 2006)

What Garyguss said. San Juan 21 gets my vote.


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## stickers11 (Apr 18, 2010)

Ziaduck said:


> A trailer-sailor is different from a trailerable boat, and your intended use can make one a good choice and the other bad.


Would love it if you could explain the difference. I imagine any boat can be "trailered", that does not however make it easy to launch from a ramp. 
Odds are I will leave on trailer for most of the year, then perhaps find a slip. There are many large lakes, bays, inlets and other sheltered waters in my area.

That said, I suspect it would be nice to be able to keep it in the water for a length of time. The getting there, putting in, stepping the mast, etc, can take a fair bit of time....time you could be spending on the water.


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## 34crealock (Dec 30, 2012)

I vote for the swing keel Santana 21 by Shock. Trailer able and one normal person can step the mast. Easily driven by a 4 hp outboard. Comfy cabin with a liner. Sails well with a little weather helm to keep you out of trouble. I think they were built in the early 70s.


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## gedaggett (Oct 21, 2008)

stickers11 said:


> Would love it if you could explain the difference. I imagine any boat can be "trailered", that does not however make it easy to launch from a ramp.
> Odds are I will leave on trailer for most of the year, then perhaps find a slip. There are many large lakes, bays, inlets and other sheltered waters in my area.
> 
> That said, I suspect it would be nice to be able to keep it in the water for a length of time. The getting there, putting in, stepping the mast, etc, can take a fair bit of time....time you could be spending on the water.


Generally a trailerable boat is one that can be lifted and placed on a trailer and hauled over land without a big rig. A trailer sailer is a boat that was designed and intended to be landed and trailered at the local boat launch and can easily be hauled behind a decently powered passenger vehicle. A A Person 26 is trailerable but not a trailer sailor.

Here some examples of trailer sailers

Catalina 22, 25 swing keel
Macgregor 19, 20, 22, 24, 25, 26
Gulf-coast 22
Cal 21
San Jaun 21
Farr 7500
Beneteau First 20
Hake Seaward 25, 26, 32
Compac 16, 20, 23
and many more


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## Ziaduck (Jul 25, 2008)

gedaggett said:


> Generally a trailerable boat is one that can be lifted and placed on a trailer and hauled over land without a big rig. A trailer sailer is a boat that was designed and intended to be landed and trailered at the local boat launch and can easily be hauled behind a decently powered passenger vehicle. A A Person 26 is trailerable but not a trailer sailor.
> 
> Here some examples of trailer sailers
> 
> ...


This. You'll find many boats in the 27'-28' range that have trailers and are considered 'trailerable'. You may be able to legally transport them down the highway and you could technically move them from lake to lake or lake to ocean...etc. That doesn't mean you would want to on a regular basis. Boats that are trailerable may require steeper ramps to launch and are often more difficult/time-consuming to rig. Trailer-sailors can generally be rigged and launched in under an hour, travel easily/safely on their trailers, and have swing keels or centerboards to keep the weight low.


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