# A survey is not poetry



## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

A few months ago I solicited copies of your sailboat surveys. Between the ones you guys sent me and the ones I had in my collections I came up with 14 samples. 
I read them all this past week. 
As I was reading them I started to doubt the premise of what I was doing. The premise was that by comparing a selection of surveys from several different surveyors I could come up with some useful data.

It occurred to me as I as I was bulldozing my way through this volume of rather dry reading that these documents were significantly different from reading a play or poetry for example. If a play is well written and the story is engaging it is a good play.

A survey however does not stand on its own. Its job is to reflect the condition of a boat. With my new found sensitivity to survey prose I'm pretty sure I could write a survey for any boat sight unseen that would read very well. 
It would of course not be useful as it would not reflect on the reality of the boats condition.

In selecting a surgeon if I had to choose between an arrogant SOB who was gifted in his practice and a really nice guy who was a little clumsy with a knife it is pretty obvious who I would pick.

With surveyors too there is no guarantee that the guy with the best computer and English skills also has the best surveying skills. In fact some of the best surveyors may be old enough that the computer is hard for them.

With the above caveats out of the way maybe in some small way I can contribute to the body of knowledge.

I was a little surprised at how similar all the surveys were. There were two exceptions. One local older fellow wrote paragraphs for everything. No lists just paragraphs but all the same information was still their.

Another guy produced a survey that was about twice a long as the others with a lot of pictures.

Every survey had the following sections:

Demographics of Boat, Principles and purpose of survey.
Description of each section of the boat
Recommendations
Valuation

Some surveys were very explicit about what they could not our would not comment on. Things like the top of the rig, engine, electrical etc. Other surveys hinted at things they couldn't comment on but were not very explicit.

A couple of guys use a thermal scanner which seemed like a nice touch.
Some of the guys put their recommendations in a list at the end others in the body. I preferred the list at the end.

Some had some boiler plate that described what the numbers meant and what was acceptable. Something like your cholesterol numbers from the lab with marginal notes as to what is the normal range.

Most rank their recommendations into, safety, later and cosmetic categories.

So the big questions are:


How do you select a surveyor?
How do you prepare so the surveyor does the best job he is capable of?
What should you do during the survey?
How do you read the survey?

Select a surveyor:
My recommendation is to select the surveyor by recommendation. Visit the yard and ask around and find someone who has a good reputation.

Prepare:
With the owners and brokers permission get as much cleaned up and opened up as possible. If the surveyor can't see it will just end up in the report as "Not tested" you didn't get your moneys worth.

During the survey:
Again with the owners, brokers and now surveyors permission stay out of the way but you may be able gain access to locations so the surveyor can do his job faster.
Make time while on site to ask questions about stuff you saw that puzzle you.

Reading
If at all possible go over the survey with the surveyor in person as there may be things he will be will to say that he is not willing to write down.

Out of 14 surveys their was no mention about several things that are just as important as the items that are typically discussed.

You may be comparing two boats. From your point of view you want to know which is the best boat for the money. The survey will not tell you that.
The reason is that the primarily reports on what is there and not on what you would like to be there. For example lets say you are looking at two almost identical boats. One has a broken stereo system and 25,000 dollars worth of brand new canvas. The other one has a working stereo but no canvas.
The survey for the first boat will mention the canvas and the broken radio.
The survey for the second boat will mention the radio but will NOT say their is no dodger and Bimini. This is not like an Amazon side by side comparison of a computer. 
The lesson if you a selling a boat with something broken is to take it off the boat if possible. The fact that it is missing may not be reported.

Never once did any survey say anything about the quality of the boat. If a deck cleat is loose it will be mentioned if it is too small it will probably not be mentioned.
If their is no room for a good anchor and rode it will not be mentioned in a survey, that is a boat review. 
It is up to you to determine if a boat is the right model for the use you have in mind. That is not the surveyors job.
If you want someone to do that for you call Perry and pay his consulting fee.

There are no repair numbers. You will have to take the list of repairs and have the yard quote it if you can't do it yourself.

Be aware that what the surveyor can not see and therefore can not comment on exceeds what he can see.

The keel bolts if there is water in the bilge.
Wiring that is hidden behind furniture
Bonding between bulkhead and hull behind furniture
Real moisture content
Leaks when really working in weather
Top of the rig.
Features of all of the electronics
Details of the engine
Hoses as they go through bulkheads
Chain plates just below the decks.

Hopefully the above will help beginners calibrate what they can reasonably expect from a survey.

I'm hoping that the experienced sailnetters will add their knowledge to this thread.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

As one who supplied sample surveys .... Fair comments


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## capt jgwinks (Sep 24, 2013)

One survey experience I had: Hired a very reputable and well recommended guy to look over a prospective purchase (in November in Michigan). Survey was done as scheduled and I picked up two copies of the 30+ page report and paid the fee. On reading the report I found that he didn't do a moisture test on the deck because it had frost on it. And wet decks were what I was most concerned about on that boat. The report was otherwise very well done and mentioned all of the things I had noticed myself. I called the guy back to see if he would return on a warmer day to do the test, he said he'd have to charge extra for that.
I haven't used him again. 

One should probably specify that if weather will interfere at all the survey must be rescheduled.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Very interesting post David. Thanks for the effort you put into this.

In the PNW I recommend Matt Harris to my clients.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

capt jgwinks said:


> One should probably specify that if weather will interfere at all the survey must be rescheduled.


Frozen Boat Surveys


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

I choose a surveyor who had extensive experience surveying my particular boat. He knew what to look for and why. I didn't want the window dressing stuff.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

bobperry said:


> Very interesting post David. Thanks for the effort you put into this.
> 
> In the PNW I recommend Matt Harris to my clients.


Matt was busy, Resiner & McEwen did a fine job for me.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

I was shocked when I was on my boat hunt and was offered a sight of a surveys to find that a few/some/many surveyors would not even look at the mast or rigging above deck level or start the engine.

Additional experts would have to be called in for this.

I was fairly pleased with the surveyor I engaged for my current boat. I had crawled all over it myself and was happy except for two specific questions relating to the integrity of the hull and deck. He was clear on one and admitted to be uncertain on another but did some research and even called the author of the previous survey to establish if the issue had progressed then gave me a qualified OK.

But he attended the sea trial and after that when I buttonholed him and asked

"Should I go ahead " he gave me an unqualified "YES"..


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

TQA said:


> I was shocked when I was on my boat hunt and was offered a sight of a surveys to find that a few/some/many surveyors would not even look at the mast or rigging above deck level or start the engine.




There are a bunch of things a prudent surveyor will not do and with good reason.

If I start the engine and a head gasket blows it's my fault. I will observe the owners representative start it and report on that. Starting an engine at the dock is almost pointless, this should be inspected during seatrial. The surveyor observes on the seatrial he does not run the boat.

I will not connect batteries to check the DC system. I have no idea of why they were disconnected and do not want to be responsible for electrical damage. For the same reason I will not plug a boat into shorepower.

The only proper way to inspect a mast and rigging is to lay it down and dismantle it for full access to all terminals, welds, fittings etc. I have found plenty of issues with my binoculars and 20x zoom camera but unless you are willing to pay for my extended health care, prescriptions, eyeglasses, sick pay, ambulance and casts, I am not going up a rig when I have no idea if the stuff up top is going to hold me.


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## blackhawke (Oct 24, 2012)

I have seen surveys done on the same boat by different surveys and to read them you would not think they were on the same boat. My recommendation is to find a surveyor that knows that make and talks to you about the know problems before the survey.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

I was conflicted at first but at this time I think it is only fair to mention Wallace aka boatpoker. 
I only read one of his surveys, I just picked one a random as their are several on his website, Port Credit Marine Surveys. I plan on going back and reading some more.

His was the 20 page outlier that included all the standard sections plus:


Standard language that explains his methodology and how to read the results.
A chart to explain the meaning of moisture numbers
Lots of pictures
A map of all thruhulls (what a great idea)
List of public records checked for recalls or other issues
Recommendations for upgrades

BoatPoker can probably point out any sections I have missed.

It was the most poetic survey I read and I have every reason to believe it accurately represented the boat too.

My only recommendation to Wallace is to remove the restriction on his site from printing his sample surveys and remove the do not copy watermark.
I totally understand his pride in authorship of his documents but the current restrictions do not prevent someone from printing them out if they want to. The redaction is a good idea and I would intersperce the words _property of Marine Surveyor,SAMS Accredited, Ontario Marine Survey _in a half dozen places on every page.

In todays world I try my hardest go get my clients to be known as thought leaders and get their name and thoughts in a many hands and in front of as many eyes as possible. Reducing friction to distribution and pointing back to the source is the name of the game.

But even now you can read them on-line and I highly recommend it.


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## socal c25 (Nov 1, 2013)

I am a skilled maintenance mechanic (plumbing, electrical a/c d/c, hydrolics, pneumatics, etc...),a machinist with knowledge in metallurgy and have extensive skills in fiberglassing and fabricating. I have done my own surveys on 3 of the 4 boats I have owned, the insurance co's accepted my reports with a disclaimer of non prejudice, the one survey I had done was exceptionally done (physically) but lacked info on the report. I wonder how some can get away with charging a fee for scrap paper while others seem to be underpaid. I recommend that you ask for references and a template of a report.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

socal c25 said:


> I am a skilled maintenance mechanic (plumbing, electrical a/c d/c, hydrolics, pneumatics, etc...),a machinist with knowledge in metallurgy and have extensive skills in fiberglassing and fabricating. I have done my own surveys on 3 of the 4 boats I have owned, the insurance co's accepted my reports with a disclaimer of non prejudice, the one survey I had done was exceptionally done (physically) but lacked info on the report. I wonder how some can get away with charging a fee for scrap paper while others seem to be underpaid. I recommend that you ask for references and a template of a report.


Of course the guy that really knows boats and knows computers enough to create poetry is the best.

But if all I could get was the guy that knows boats and his survey was on a napkin and the insurance guy would accept it that is good enough.

If the old dude looked at the boat and said.

"Well young fella, you really don't want this boat, she's been hit hard. See that buckle under the aft end of the fin keel."

I don't care if he writes anything down. He still deserves his fee if he finds a deal breaker I didn't find.

It's like the old story of the retired engineer that was the leading expert on some industrial machinery. His old company had a problem they couldn't figure out and begged him if he would look at some equipment for them even though he was retired.

Once he got to factory and listened for a minute he borrowed a wrench and took a quarter turn on a nut and the noise went away.

The foreman was very happy as they had been trying to fix the noise for weeks. He asks how much. The retired engineer said $1,000 dollars. The foreman questioned the fee. The engineer said OK then how about $5 to tighten the nut and 9,995.00 to know which nut to tighten.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

boatpoker said:


> Starting an engine at the dock is almost pointless, this should be inspected during seatrial.


Pretty strong words.

I'm assuming you are looking for vibration, smoke etc under load at different RPM's

Anything else

Also what is your take on the temperature guns.
One article was saying that they could even pick up elevated temperatures in wiring indicating poor connections.

Seems like it would probably take a long time.
Might be a good idea in high am devices like anchor windlass or power winches.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

socal c25 said:


> I have done my own surveys on 3 of the 4 boats I have owned, the insurance co's accepted my reports with a disclaimer of non prejudice,


Tell us about that if you don't mind. What year, what state, country.
Exactly what idi non-prejudice mean applied to whom.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Thanks David. I agree with your thoughts on accessibility to the reports and will give it some more thought. I know that no matter what I do someone somehwere can beat any redacting or whatever other security measures I use. I am a little gun shy as someone managed to beat my security some years ago, modified my report and used it to get insurance. When a claim arose I was guilty until I could prove the report had been tampered with.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

boatpoker said:


> When a claim arose I was guilty until I could prove the report had been tampered with.


Wow, and I thought you were from Canada.

How did you prove the report was tampered with?


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## Dog Ship (Sep 23, 2011)

Boat Insurance/Auto Insurance,
I can go buy a car that may be in need of brakes, may leak gas, oil and might even have no working tail lights and bald tires. It may even need a whole new front steering gear and a new windshield.
I can then walk into any Autoplan Insurance agency and buy insurance.
I can then hop into that car and drive down the highway at 110kmh toward oncoming traffic that is traveling at the same speed. No questions asked.
But, if I want insurance on a boat, it has to be in top working condition. 
I have to have it surveyed at $12 per foot.
I may have to pull it out of the water for this survey at a cost of $500 or more plus dryland storage fees. 
It cannot have any leaks what so ever. 
The rig has to be inspected. 
The sails have to be inspected. 
The deck has to be inspected. 
The hull has to be inspected.
The motor has to be inspected.
The overall appearance is scrutinized.
The wiring has to be inspected.
The lights have to be inspected.
And on and on it goes.
It's a seven page report on every aspect of the boat. 
If anything is not up to par I can be denied insurance, moorage and the marina I am up on the hard at can deny me a lift back into the water.
Our boat only goes 6.5 knots flat out and we use it maybe once a week.
Just because we own a boat doesn't mean we are some huge source of money.
What a scam.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

davidpm said:


> Wow, and I thought you were from Canada.
> 
> How did you prove the report was tampered with?


The original was backed up on a separate hard drive and filed as a database showing dates of creation and modification. The latest date was long before the date that showed on the false report. He had also changed the spacing in the report from percentage to pixels and I was able to show that in almost 3,000 reports I had always used "percentage" spacing. There were a few other small technical differences.


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## IStream (Dec 15, 2013)

bobperry said:


> Very interesting post David. Thanks for the effort you put into this.
> 
> In the PNW I recommend Matt Harris to my clients.


+1 for Matt Harris at Reisner, McEwen & Harris up in Bellingham, WA. I just had him do a survey and he was very thorough, encouraging of having the prospective buyer aboard, and he didn't hesitate to call me over to see firsthand the things that concerned him and to explain why with more color than you'd get in the written report.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

Dog Ship said:


> Just because we own a boat doesn't mean we are some huge source of money.
> What a scam.


I certainly see your point. 
In trying to puzzle out why the only thing I can come up with is competition.

The auto business is so large and competitive that the risk of insuring an unsafe car might be less than the loss of revenue if a company does not take the chance and insure all comers.

Also the damage claims for cars and boats may follow different trajectories.
If you have a 1,000 dollar car their is probably some chance you will bugger another 1,000 dollar car.
If you have a 1,000 dollar boat their is probably a really good chance you are going to bugger a 400,000 dollar boat.

Scams abound no doubt but if someone could make a lot of money selling boat insurance for a little less with no survey I'm sure they would.

I know a guy that served overseas in a US war about 50 years ago. Could not get a loan from a bank even though he was getting a military paycheck.
When he got back to the states he shopped the idea of loans for military personal to some banks. They were not interested.
He started his own company and is now doing millions of dollars in military loans.

So maybe you have a business opportunity.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

davidpm said:


> Pretty strong words.
> 
> I'm assuming you are looking for vibration, smoke etc under load at different RPM's
> 
> ...


Infrared thermometers work quite well and only add a few minutes to a survey. A thermal camera works exceptionally well on engines and electrical systems and takes seconds (in these applications only).

Everything that moves and/or powers up from engines, thrusters, steering gear, hydraulics, travelers, spinaker poles, generators, inverters etc. should be tested under load during a sea trial. Attached is the engine excerpt from a sea trial.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Sorry can't seem to attach a pdf.


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## Dog Ship (Sep 23, 2011)

davidpm said:


> I certainly see your point.
> In trying to puzzle out why the only thing I can come up with is competition.
> 
> The auto business is so large and competitive that the risk of insuring an unsafe car might be less than the loss of revenue if a company does not take the chance and insure all comers.
> ...


In a fender bender what you say is true David, but when two cars meet at over 200km/h there will be death and injury. That's expensive. Really expensive.
Also, and I have said it before, there is no legal or Governmental regulation to license surveyors. Anyone who feels confident enough to survey a boat can call themselves a surveyor. Try getting a mechanics license now a days.

Also, no one is going to put collision insurance on a $1000 beater. It would cost to much.


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## jraymer (Feb 23, 2012)

aeventyr60 said:


> I choose a surveyor who had extensive experience surveying my particular boat. He knew what to look for and why. I didn't want the window dressing stuff.


Was it easy to find somebody with experience with your particular boat and how did you go about looking?

Jim.


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## IStream (Dec 15, 2013)

Dog Ship said:


> Boat Insurance/Auto Insurance,
> ...But, if I want insurance on a boat, it has to be in top working condition.
> I have to have it surveyed at $12 per foot.
> I may have to pull it out of the water for this survey at a cost of $500 or more plus dryland storage fees.
> ...


Your point is well taken but cars are far more numerous and generally younger at 11.4 years current (record) average than non-trailerable boats. The risk with cars is spread over a far larger number of vehicles, they haven't had as long to degrade mechanically as many fiberglass boats, many cars are required to pass basic inspections as a condition of yearly registration, and cars don't sink.

A bad rig, faulty seacocks, etc can very quickly lead to the loss of the craft and possibly loss of life. I'd also guess that most boat owners are far less skilled at piloting their vessel than driving their car, yours truly included.


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## Dog Ship (Sep 23, 2011)

You can wear out a set of brakes in one year.
A gas leak can happen with a brand new car. 
There are a lot of idiots out on the road who think they know how to drive, they are usually the ones doing something stupid.
A good friend of ours has been in a wheelchair for almost 40 years due to a car accident. He will be in that chair until the day he dies.
If you think that doesn't cost money, think again.


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## IStream (Dec 15, 2013)

Dog Ship said:


> You can wear out a set of brakes in one year.
> A gas leak can happen with a brand new car.
> There are a lot of idiots out on the road who think they know how to drive, they are usually the ones doing something stupid.
> A good friend of ours has been in a wheelchair for almost 40 years due to a car accident. He will be in that chair until the day he dies.
> If you think that doesn't cost money, think again.


Of course it does, the question is one of frequency and statistics. Insurance is driven by actuarial data, period. They need/want to stay below a threshold ratio of claims/premiums. If they can improve the numerator by putting survey requirement prerequisites in place, they will. If their competitors don't, they'll lose business until they decide to relax their requirements or until their competitors go out of business.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

So anyways. Does anyone else have any boat survey stories. Particularly good, or bad.
Did your surveyor find stuff you didn't?
Did a survey cause you save a lot of money?
Not buy the boat?


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## Dog Ship (Sep 23, 2011)

IStream said:


> Of course it does, the question is one of frequency and statistics. Insurance is driven by actuarial data, period. They need/want to stay below a threshold ratio of claims/premiums. If they can improve the numerator by putting survey requirement prerequisites in place, they will. If their competitors don't, they'll lose business until they decide to relax their requirements or until their competitors go out of business.


We don't have any vehicle inspections for cars in BC no matter how old your car is. So, basically it's a scam to keep their competitor's honest.
If you need a license to apply false fingernails why are surveyors not required to have a license? 
I'm having a survey done tomorrow, I think I'll bring a box of donuts and a big stick.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

jraymer said:


> Was it easy to find somebody with experience with your particular boat and how did you go about looking?
> 
> Jim.


Easy enough after talking to several people around the marina/boatyard. Owners associations should help you figure out the likely trouble spots.
Boatyard managers know who the local surveyors are and will generally point you in the right direction. Ask around and you will probably find that the same names keep getting mentioned, either favorably or not. Good to ask the surveyor before the survey if he has any experience with your particular boat. Word of mouth seems to be the best bet.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

boatpoker-
Someone hacked into your home or business computer, to change your internal archival copy of a survey??

There are ways to stop tampering, and prove tampering, but for some reason very few folks talk about them. For instance, you can provide access only to password-protected PDF files of the surveys. Those can be cracked, with unusual effort, but even then you can go a step further by using a modified font, so that whoever modifies it cannot match the font you use. And if the modifications are subtle--they'll never even notice they've broken your "tamper seal".

Similarly, emails can be signed with digital signatures. Not free for business, but they've been a legal option to signed papers since the _Carter _administration mandated them. Marking each document as "do not accept...except digitally signed copies" can help there too. All sorts of subtle ways to go. And there are white papers on all this stuff floating around on the web, from sources including Uncle Sam's own minions.

Finding your options and how to deploy them may take a little while, but the security you get from it should make it worthwhile.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

The PDF security is almost worthless. Don't ask how I know.
I would think that the best way BP could protect himself is to send a copy directly to the insurance company. 
If the insurance company accepts anything else then they are the ones accepting the possibility that their potential client modified the file.

The protocol I would follow as the underwriter.
Call boat-poker using the number on his website and ask him to send me the file while I'm on the phone.
Boom I've got a clean copy.

It is really unfair that BoatPoker had to defend himself from this when it was the insurance company's procedure that was at fault.


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

Good thread. Thanks for all of the effort. I am a bit curious about this statement...



davidpm said:


> If at all possible go over the survey with the surveyor in person as there may be things he will be will to say that he is not willing to write down.


The way I see it, I'm basically paying for the surveyor to put his experienced opinion in writing. What could he possibly be willing to say in person that he would NOT be willing to put into the report? I would hope the answer is, nothing.

So, Davidpm, can you elaborate on what you were imagining here? And any surveyors reading this (boatpoker?) are there really things that you might say in person, but would not be willing to put into writing?

Edit: Now it just occurred to me that there might be a thousand little details that he might mention in person, but that if he put every one of them into the report it would go 300 pages, so he just doesn't put all of that in writing. I can see this sort of thing not being in the report. Maybe that's what you meant. Or did you mean, as I initially interpreted it, that there might be some particular thing that he would be okay with saying to you in confidence, but would refuse to put down in writing?


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

denverd0n said:


> The way I see it, I'm basically paying for the surveyor to put his experienced opinion in writing. What could he possibly be willing to say in person that he would NOT be willing to put into the report? I would hope the answer is, nothing.


You are right of course as far as what you are paying for.
I'm the sort of guy who as no problem asking for a little more than I'm paying for.

That little more may be his opinion about the costs of the repairs or who could do them cheaper. The suitability of the boat for your proposed use.

In short stuff you didn't pay him for.

Even just pointing out the one sentence that absolves him of responsibility but you should really look into.
Every survey is full of sentences that are effectively disclaimers. 
A surveyor may be willing to give you some estimates as to likelihood of problems in person while on paper he has to just say, did not power up or not inspected.

It is very good that you are asking this question. Working out the answer will dramatically increase your understanding of the subtleties of this process. 
In my opinion it is the best question every asked on this subject it is the nub of the relationship.

I could go on for an hour and I'm sure that folks that really know what they are doing can really help you.


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

davidpm said:


> ...his opinion about the costs of the repairs or who could do them cheaper. The suitability of the boat for your proposed use. In short stuff you didn't pay him for.


Okay, that makes sense to me. I hadn't thought about that kind of thing that you might get him to talk about, that isn't necessarily a formal part of the survey.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

David-
Agreed on all counts. Just saying that there are ways to make things more secure, both electronically and on paper, and most of it is simply not discussed. These days, even if you wanted to forge a written copy of a survey, that's easy enough.
What was that big murder case up in Scarsdale 15/20? years ago, when a crucial piece of evidence was a phone bill showing someone was on the phone at a certain time. Both sides presented "original" printouts of the same phone bill, with the one critical item _different _on each. Of course 20 years ago if you owned a paper shredder folks called you paranoid too.
Now there's a marketing opportunity, marine grade shredders for sailors with security concerns.(VBG)


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## sailpower (Jun 28, 2008)

Surveys are a necessity of course but some of the customs seem strange to me.

One is the valuation process. Surveyors are not brokers or bankers. They don’t buy and sell boats so how can they be expected to know the marketability or value of a particular vessel? In practice most use the same price guides that a broker or bank uses and there is no particular insight there. Often the surveyor simply asks the broker what the number should be. 

Once when discussing a survey the surveyor told me that he hadn’t yet told me whether or not I should buy the boat. I pointed out that IMO that is not his job. I want to know what is wrong with the boat and then I will decide if it suits my purpose and if I am willing to go forward with the sale. I don’t need permission. I need information.

Finally, re posting of surveys on surveyors web sites or sharing them with other prospects; don’t those surveys belong to the person who hired the surveyor to do them? I for one would not be happy to see my private information being shared or used commercially without my permission.


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

+100 for Matt Harris at Reisner, McEwen & Harris up in Bellingham, WA. As a broker I have worked with him for about 5 years he is absolutely as good as it gets. I do have one gripe with the OP, the whole point of the survey is so that the surveyor can take you through every inch of the boat, that's what you are paying them for.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

We've been through 3 purchase surveys and 3 subsequent 'insurance' surveys. I was present throughout them all.

For the most part I had no real issues with any of the purchase surveys. They were thorough, the most recent one 'looked' best, but that's as much a function of better desktop documentation and photo handling tools than anything. (Survey years were 1981, 1992, 2004) We bought two boats without a survey, both small, simple 24 footers, paid cash so no bankers involved.

Kept all these boats long enough to be forced into insurance renewal surveys. As it happens did not use the same surveyor(s), and in all three cases I thought the effort was rather lax and feel that I pretty well dictated the survey details as opposed to those details being the result of any significant investigation on the part of the surveyor. While I have no desire for an insurance survey to be nearly as intense as a pre purchase survey, I've only felt 'ripped off' when writing checks for insurance surveys - partly because I could have told the insurer anything they needed to know without his $500+/hour "help"

I've had bigger issues with insurers. On this most recent boat we had a good survey, typical issues came up like recommending resealing the windows at some point, which we planned to do in spring. This was October on the Wet coast.. our insurer rep insisted that all the recommendations be complied with within 30 days - and unreasonable stance given the time of year and the 'urgency' of the recommendation. We ended up switching carriers.

We were also forced into an insurance survey on a small 24 foot dayracer, no below water throughhulls, no head, no sink, basically just a shell with some cushions below.. that was a bit of a joke too...

Finally, I was also present at a purchase survey for a boat we'd been selling, the buyer used the same surveyor we'd used on our purchase 12 years earlier. He's a locally recognized surveyor, but even he missed things we'd already shown/told the buyer.


I think there should be some credit by the insurers to recognize X years of successful claim-free boating and experience and perhpas waive the periodic survey requirement, though I recognize the difficulty in deciding when it really should apply....


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## Dog Ship (Sep 23, 2011)

I had our boat surveyed this morning.
We spent about twenty minutes talking about the boat and sharing old sailing stories.
I went back to scraping the old fairing compound off of my keel when about 10-15 minutes later the surveyor came back down the ladder and told me he was done. 
I thought, done?..wtf...that was quick.
His overall impression of the boat was good but I have not seen the actual report yet.
I'll keep you posted.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

Dog Ship said:


> I had our boat surveyed this morning.
> We spent about twenty minutes talking about the boat and sharing old sailing stories.
> I went back to scraping the old fairing compound off of my keel when about 10-15 minutes later the surveyor came back down the ladder and told me he was done.
> I thought, done?..wtf...that was quick.
> ...


Most of the surveys I've been on take several hours even if their is no sea trial.

I guess if it was an insurance survey and basically just says, yep its a boat and it floats maybe that is all you need.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

Faster said:


> but even he missed things we'd already shown/told the buyer.


Like what?


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## Dog Ship (Sep 23, 2011)

He arrived shortly after 10am and was gone about 45minutes and $434.70 later. 
It is what it is. It was for insurance purposes.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

davidpm said:


> Most of the surveys I've been on take several hours even if their is no sea trial.


Same here (for purchase surveys)... man, if he bills you $500+ for that I'd be upset. I thought $450 for 45 minutes was bad enough on our last insurance survey. I gather this was an insurance survey too?


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## Dog Ship (Sep 23, 2011)

I was a bit choked at the price but what do you do.
Without a survey the insurance company won't offer a up policy , without a policy I can't get moorage. They have you by the short ones and long ones.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

davidpm said:


> Like what?


One example that sticks in my mind.. we had had a bulkhead separation that we'd repaired/reinforced.. the work was out of sight below the galley counter and one of the settee berths, when showing the boat we pointed out the area, pulled the covers/opened the cabinet and showed them what we'd done.. that nugget did not come up in survey at all - it should have, I'd say.

We had done some considerable interior 'remodeling' - removed a pipe berth, built in a fixed pilot berth, added storage, completely rebuilt/redesigned the head compartment - nicely finished, I think, but clearly not as she was originally built - one would expect comments on that sort of thing.

One other side note.. the buyers finalized the deal on-the-spot at survey, not waiting for the 'report'. When the report came in, the surveyor had set the 'value' at just about the agreed price. The buyers wanted us to intervene with the surveyor and get him to raise the valuation a fair but above what we agreed on.. thought that was a bit odd - if they thought it was worth that much how come they didn't offer it??? 



Dog Ship said:


> I was a bit choked at the price but what do you do.
> Without a survey the insurance company won't offer a up policy , without a policy I can't get moorage. They have you by the short ones and long ones.


Too true.....


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## Dog Ship (Sep 23, 2011)

Faster said:


> One other side note.. the buyers finalized the deal on-the-spot at survey, not waiting for the 'report'. When the report came in, the surveyor had set the 'value' at just about the agreed price. The buyers wanted us to intervene with the surveyor and get him to raise the valuation a fair but above what we agreed on.. thought that was a bit odd - if they thought it was worth that much how come they didn't offer it??? (


That is weird, maybe they were thinking of a quick resale down the road?


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Dog Ship said:


> He arrived shortly after 10am and was gone about 45minutes and $434.70 later.
> It is what it is. It was for insurance purposes.


Is your boat a 22' Catalina or the like ? if bigger you were ripped off.

I treat all surveys ... pre-purchase, condition & valuation and insurance, exactly the same. If you do not do a complete survey how do you come up with an accurate value ?

To those who do "abbreviated" insurance surveys, I ask "what do you leave out ?" .


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Dog Ship said:


> That is weird, maybe they were thinking of a quick resale down the road?


No, they kept the boat 5-6 years...


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## Dog Ship (Sep 23, 2011)

boatpoker said:


> Is your boat a 22' Catalina or the like ? if bigger you were ripped off.
> 
> I treat all surveys ... pre-purchase, condition & valuation and insurance, exactly the same. If you do not do a complete survey how do you come up with an accurate value ?
> 
> To those who do "abbreviated" insurance surveys, I ask "what do you leave out ?" .


Yes, although I haven't received the surveyor report yet I do feel ripped off. He charged me $12 per foot plus GST and a $30 call out fee.
I feel ripped off by the 45 minute survey on a C&C 32 that cost me $434 and by a system that is unregulated and out of control.
Granted this surveyor was an oldtimer and hopefully knows his stuff. He will also be spending some time at home with the paperwork and such, but still.
As Faster mentioned earlier I felt I was directing the survey through conversation rather than the surveyor doing his own thing and coming up with his own conclusions. Of course there are some things that he would need help with that aren't as obvious as others but still.
Furthermore, it is not his job nor was it my request to have him come up with a value. His job was to determine the seaworthiness of our boat for insurance purposes, nothing more. If my insurance company wants a value placed on the boat I would get it appraised not surveyed. 
I don't know if he will place a value on it as he has not produced the paperwork as of yet.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Dog Ship said:


> .....If my insurance company wants a value placed on the boat I would get it appraised not surveyed.
> I don't know if he will place a value on it as he has not produced the paperwork as of yet.


Be prepared to be disappointed here too, with the market the way it is these days. Those numbers, if provided, will be low.. It can save you some premiums, though... no point in insuring for $45K if the survey comes back at $30K or less...


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Dog Ship said:


> Yes, although I haven't received the surveyor report yet I do feel ripped off. He charged me $12 per foot plus GST and a $30 call out fee.
> I feel ripped off by the 45 minute survey on a C&C 32 that cost me $434 and by a system that is unregulated and out of control.
> Granted this surveyor was an oldtimer and hopefully knows his stuff. He will also be spending some time at home with the paperwork and such, but still.
> As Faster mentioned earlier I felt I was directing the survey through conversation rather than the surveyor doing his own thing and coming up with his own conclusions. Of course there are some things that he would need help with that aren't as obvious as others but still.
> ...


A C&C 32 in average condition and not full of sails, gear and cat litter boxes is a 4hr. survey for me, sea trial excluded. Maybe he's just a lot more efficient than I am.

You may not have asked him for a value but the insurance companies insist that the surveyors provide one in their reports. What is She Worth is the only part of my job that I dislike.


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## WayneCatt (May 8, 2008)

I remember a couple years ago a survey of a Pearson 323 that lay in Chicago. I was looking at one here in Muskegon. The survey on the Chicago boat listed that the keel bolts needed attention. Oddly a Pearson 323 has encapsulated ballast or at least the one I bought did. I suspect the surveyor was using an existing boilerplate and missed changing it


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

Dog Ship said:


> Boat Insurance/Auto Insurance,
> I can go buy a car that may be in need of brakes, may leak gas, oil and might even have no working tail lights and bald tires. It may even need a whole new front steering gear and a new windshield.
> I can then walk into any Autoplan Insurance agency and buy insurance.
> I can then hop into that car and drive down the highway at 110kmh toward oncoming traffic that is traveling at the same speed. No questions asked.
> ...


Well in many, but not all states there is an inspection in order register a car. In New York, it is pretty comprehensive if the actually do it. They check for bushings, brake pads, emissions, tires and what not. It is not too hard to find someone to pass a bad car, but I would imagine you could find someone to give a false survey of a boat if you looked hard enough. Also my last two cars that had comprehensive coverage had photos take of them at the insurance brokers.

As others have mentioned about BoatPoker, seems to be very professional, and a stand up guy. I have emailed him a few times and even though he has no financial gain, has answered questions for me. He does seem to be a true leader in the field. I would have every reason to believe that he would give a very through survey. Now I would not want to have to pay the travel expenses to get him to come to New York, but if I win the 550 million he may just get a plane ticket to look at a few boats for me! But in my present price range the travel fees would be as much as the boat!


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

If you want to play one upsmanship with bad surveys, I'll win hands down 

I collect these things. The one I have attached is one of my favourites. It's a one pager. That basically says. _I surveyed this boat six years ago and it was in good condition and it still is._

Read carefully .... it claims a 1973 38' Tolleycraft (gas engines) weighs 14 tons and is worth $90k. I have hundreds like this one.


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## Dog Ship (Sep 23, 2011)

boatpoker said:


> A C&C 32 in average condition and not full of sails, gear and cat litter boxes is a 4hr. survey for me, sea trial excluded. Maybe he's just a lot more efficient than I am.
> 
> You may not have asked him for a value but the insurance companies insist that the surveyors provide one in their reports. What is She Worth is the only part of my job that I dislike.


My insurance company asked for a survey of our boat to determine risk based on seaworthiness. They did not ask for an appraisal. I asked the surveyor for a survey to determine seaworthiness of the boat I did not ask for his opinion on how much he thinks it's worth.
If the insurance company wants to determine the value of the boat I have a receipt of sale and I have all of the receipts from the upgrades I have done to her over the last two years. They can also go to yachtworld where they will find 8 C&C 32's for sale with an average asking price of $32,000. 
If the surveyor does place a value on the boat in the survey I will simply black it out. Their are far more and better ways to determine the value of our boat than with just one man's opinion who spent 10-15 minutes onboard.


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## aelkin (Feb 3, 2013)

Poker;
I wish I'd had a chance to hear about you 2 years ago.
I had a 35' C&C-1 surveyed in Sept 2012, for insurance purposes...and I suspect that a boilerplate was used, since the critical dimensions for the boat were all wrong (LOA, draft, Displacement, Beam,...), the guy couldn't find the serial number, I had to send him a number of pictures to complete the report, and he included a number of sails that didn't exist, as well as included a full set of brass weather instruments (decorative) because 'well, the bulkhead has areas that are darker than others, and looked like a clock, thermometer and barometer hung there'...

He charged more than your advertised rates.
And I waited almost 3 weeks for the survey report.

You'll be getting a call from me when my insurance company needs an update.

Andy


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Dog Ship said:


> My insurance company asked for a survey of our boat to determine risk based on seaworthiness. They did not ask for an appraisal. I asked the surveyor for a survey to determine seaworthiness of the boat I did not ask for his opinion on how much he thinks it's worth.
> If the insurance company wants to determine the value of the boat I have a receipt of sale and I have all of the receipts from the upgrades I have done to her over the last two years. They can also go to yachtworld where they will find 8 C&C 32's for sale with an average asking price of $32,000.
> If the surveyor does place a value on the boat in the survey I will simply black it out. Their are far more and better ways to determine the value of our boat than with just one man's opinion who spent 10-15 minutes onboard.


You can black it out if you like but the insurance company will not accept it that way, they expect a value from the surveyor. You may not like it (I don't) but thats just the way it is. The prices listed on Yacht World have nothing to do with the actual value of a boat as the insurers well know.

The actual selling price average of the 14 diesel powered C&C 32's sold through yachtworld.com since January 2012 is $22,221. Quite a bit lower than your $32k and this is why the insurers want a value from the surveyor.

PS. The only gas powered C&C 32' sold through yachtworld in that time period went for $12,755.


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## Dog Ship (Sep 23, 2011)

Since I live in Canada and our economy is reflective on everything we buy, I went by the asking price of the 8 boats that are available for sale in Canada. We have a much better economy here than in the US and as a result things cost a lot more.
The average house price in Victoria is $630,000.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

aelkin said:


> Poker;
> I wish I'd had a chance to hear about you 2 years ago.
> I had a 35' C&C-1 surveyed in Sept 2012, for insurance purposes...and I suspect that a boilerplate was used, since the critical dimensions for the boat were all wrong (LOA, draft, Displacement, Beam,...), the guy couldn't find the serial number, I had to send him a number of pictures to complete the report, and he included a number of sails that didn't exist, as well as included a full set of brass weather instruments (decorative) because 'well, the bulkhead has areas that are darker than others, and looked like a clock, thermometer and barometer hung there'...
> 
> ...


Thanks but you already have an excellent surveyor down that way.
Craig Morley at Aquafacts


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## Dog Ship (Sep 23, 2011)

Which brings up another comparison, you wouldn't want a home inspector placing a value on your home so why would you even expect to have a surveyor place a value on your boat.
I have nothing against you Boatpoker it's just not making any sense at all.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Dog Ship said:


> Since I live in Canada and our economy is reflective on everything we buy, I went by the asking price of the 8 boats that are available for sale in Canada. We have a much better economy here than in the US and as a result things cost a lot more.
> The average house price in Victoria is $630,000.


The average of actual sales prices of the eight diesel boats sold in Canada in the same period is $23,295.

Which brings up another comparison, you wouldn't want a home inspector placing a value on your home so why would you even expect to have a surveyor place a value on your boat.
I have nothing against you Boatpoker it's just not making any sense at all.

I agree with you. I've already said I don't like it either but the insurance companies don't listen to me.


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## Dog Ship (Sep 23, 2011)

boatpoker said:


> The average of actual sales prices of the eight diesel boats sold in Canada in the same period is $23,295.
> 
> Which brings up another comparison, you wouldn't want a home inspector placing a value on your home so why would you even expect to have a surveyor place a value on your boat.
> I have nothing against you Boatpoker it's just not making any sense at all.
> ...


That would be disappointing as we have about $30,000 into it, $25,000 for the purchase and about $5000 in upgrades that I have done over the last two years. 
I would guess a total loss replacement would be around $30-35,000 for something comparable. 
Our 3gm30f is only 600 hours old and was installed in 08 at a cost of $12,500. That's half the purchase price alone.
If nothing else it will have me keeping it in top shape as the insurance will be useless if something goes wrong.
We'll see what happens and I'll let you know, I sure hope it doesn't take to long as we have moorage pending and we need to make a deal on it by January 1st. It's all riding on this survey and insurance crazy isn't it.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Dog Ship said:


> That would be disappointing as we have about $30,000 into it, $25,000 for the purchase and about $5000 in upgrades that I have done over the last two years.
> I would guess a total loss replacement would be around $30-35,000 for something comparable.
> Our 3gm30f is only 600 hours old and was installed in 08 at a cost of $12,500. That's half the purchase price alone.
> If nothing else it will have me keeping it in top shape as the insurance will be useless if something goes wrong.
> We'll see what happens and I'll let you know, I sure hope it doesn't take to long as we have moorage pending and we need to make a deal on it by January 1st. It's all riding on this survey and insurance crazy isn't it.


Are you selling? or is this all in aid of getting a moorage contract?

Hard, unpleasant bite of reality... I expect that Boatpoker's numbers are pretty 'real'. Also it seems that anything older than 1990 or so is much devalued; if you want to 'upgrade', say, 10 years (to say nothing about upsizing) you're at least going to have to double the proceeds of what you're likely to get for your 80s boat regardless of condition or upgrades. There are always 'exceptional' exceptions and maybe you'll be one of the lucky ones (or get the right 'starry-eyed' buyer)

We had been insuring our boat for $50K... the last survey value came in at $36K. In retrospect that's probably optimistic.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Boats are not a wise investment. I bought my boat for $125k in 2006, put 50k into it and sold it a couple of months ago for $70k.

The difference is that I knew what I was getting into.

B.O.A.T. = Bring Out Another Thousand !

Once you get over 36' you spell it B.O.A.T.T.
Over 40' it's spelled B.O.A.T.T.T.T.


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## Dog Ship (Sep 23, 2011)

Faster said:


> Are you selling? or is this all in aid of getting a moorage contract?
> 
> Hard, unpleasant bite of reality... I expect that Boatpoker's numbers are pretty 'real'. Also it seems that anything older than 1990 or so is much devalued; if you want to 'upgrade', say, 10 years (to say nothing about upsizing) you're at least going to have to double the proceeds of what you're likely to get for your 80s boat regardless of condition or upgrades. There are always 'exceptional' exceptions and maybe you'll be one of the lucky ones (or get the right 'starry-eyed' buyer)
> 
> We had been insuring our boat for $50K... the last survey value came in at $36K. In retrospect that's probably optimistic.


No, we are not selling, we plan to keep her for a while. 
We are the second owners but the first owner kept very good care of it. 
She has a lot of life left in her and still presents well. We get a lot of compliments but it is the previous and original owner who deserves the credit.
This survey is for insurance and eventually moorage.
Since we just moved from Victoria to Dolphin Beach we have also moved the boat from Sidney to Nanaimo and we are required insurance at the marina we will be keeping her at, hence the nightmare. 
We've never looked at this as an investment. It's our entertainment and our holiday fun. Having said that we also don't want to loose our shirts either.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

Dog Ship said:


> Yes, although I haven't received the surveyor report yet I do feel ripped off. He charged me $12 per foot plus GST and a $30 call out fee.
> I feel ripped off by the 45 minute survey on a C&C 32 that cost me $434 and by a system that is unregulated and out of control.
> Granted this surveyor was an oldtimer and hopefully knows his stuff. He will also be spending some time at home with the paperwork and such, but still.
> As Faster mentioned earlier I felt I was directing the survey through conversation rather than the surveyor doing his own thing and coming up with his own conclusions. Of course there are some things that he would need help with that aren't as obvious as others but still.
> ...


For me the biggest reason I would feel ripped off is you paid for someone to evaluate your boat. You obviously did not get that. Even though you know your boat well, and likely will know most of what is wrong, it would be nice to feel confidant that they might come up with a few things you missed. It is unlikely that they found anything in 45 min that you did not already know. You may only have gotten it to cover yourself for insurance, but since you paid for it seems you should have at least gotten the benefit of a real inspection. If you were only going to get a cursory overview then they should have discounted it as such.


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## Dog Ship (Sep 23, 2011)

I thought that too Paul. 
What if we decide to sell before another survey is required by our insurance provider. 
If it is not a complete evaluation then the buyer or myself will need a another survey to sell it. 
Doing a survey on a boat that's only worth $20-25,000 is an expense to consider for some people. That might be a deal breaker.
I asked the guy when I hired him what he was going to look at and he said, "Everything, it's a seven page document". I'm still waiting for the survey report.
He did say as he was leaving that he liked what he saw and he took a pile of pictures. The problem with taking pictures is that even if you see something in the picture that looks odd you are unable to investigate further because it's only a picture. You are not still there on the boat so as you can investigate further.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Dog Ship said:


> I thought that too Paul.
> What if we decide to sell before another survey is required by our insurance provider.
> If it is not a complete evaluation then the buyer or myself will need a another survey to sell it.


A buyer should not rely on a survey that he does not commission himself.


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## Dog Ship (Sep 23, 2011)

If a buyer can't rely on a survey that was done before he was involved with the boats purchase, then why do we survey boats at all. 
All this tells me is that there is no trust in any survey.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

In a perfect world every survey will be totally unbiased. But any bias obviously tilts towards whoever writes the cheque. For all a buyer knows the seller's survey could have been done by his brother-in-law.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Dog Ship said:


> If a buyer can't rely on a survey that was done before he was involved with the boats purchase, then why do we survey boats at all.
> All this tells me is that there is no trust in any survey.


Just because the boat was fine at the beginning of the month when the survey was done, does not mean it's still in that condition a month later.

There is also a huge variance in the quality of surveys. In my experience few people spend enough time qualifying a surveyor. It's like any other profession, there are the good, the bad and the ugly.

There is a surveyor in my neighborhood heavily promoted by some brokers who refer to him as "Drive by Bill" because he may or may not get out of the car to do the survey.

Are you going to trust the owner or the broker to make that choice for you ?


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## Dog Ship (Sep 23, 2011)

And that is what we are finding out mitiempo. 
Our boat was kept at RVicYC for it's entire life prior to us owning it and they require insurance. 
The PO must have known a surveyor and had probably dealt with the same insurance company for many years. There is no way an insurance company would have covered the boat given it's long term problems and a surveyor should have picked up on those problems. 
So what was happening was the PO who had owned the boat since it was new was a good old boy and the survey and policy just kept getting renewed, no questions asked. 
Like I said before, it's an unregulated, unlicensed and unaccountable industry that the insurance companies have embraced. A scam if you will. It's not what you know it's who you know. 
Now that the boat has legitimate owners who are trying to do things properly "we" may get screwed because of this unregulated scam that has already cost us $434 and possibly the replacement cost of our boat should something go wrong. 
If you cannot trust a survey that was done before you got involved with a sale on a boat that is worth what ours is, there is no way you are going to keep getting survey after survey until you find a suitable boat. You will spend thousands doing this and it will become unaffordable for anyone to do a survey in order to purchase a boat. You have to have faith in these surveys.
Which also brings to light the fact that if you cannot trust a survey that is provided by the seller then why would you trust any survey from anybody?


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## Dog Ship (Sep 23, 2011)

If I miss something in my industry and things go wrong it is me who is held responsible and it is me who will pay for that shortfall or mistake. 
This can result in a bankrupt company, fines and thousands of dollars in repairs. 
I do not have insurance for this if I am found liable.
If my boat sinks because something was missed by the surveyor who's responsible.


Sorry for the edit, I had to take the dog outside for his after dinner pee and I lost my train of thought.


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

bobperry said:


> Very interesting post David. Thanks for the effort you put into this.
> 
> In the PNW I recommend Matt Harris to my clients.


How about in SF Bay? Know anyone good? I need an insurance survey soon, but I'd also like to know about anything that is wrong.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Dog Ship said:


> If my boat sinks because something was missed by the surveyor who's responsible.


I would guess you are responsible. I have never seen a survey without a clause stating that the surveyor is not responsible for errors and omissions.


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## Dog Ship (Sep 23, 2011)

If an insurance company wants to place a value on a boat and determine it's seaworthiness then it is the insurance companies responsibility to do that with someone from the insurance company. If they are to rely on the way things are now then a survey is a mute point.


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## thesnort (Jun 2, 2007)

MarkSF said:


> How about in SF Bay? Know anyone good? I need an insurance survey soon, but I'd also like to know about anything that is wrong.


Wish I could remember where I heard this recommendation, but here it is:
Wedlock, Ramsay & Whiting ? Northern California Marine Surveyors ? Ramsay

I'll bet her accent is nice, at least.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Dog Ship said:


> If an insurance company wants to place a value on a boat and determine it's seaworthiness then it is the insurance companies responsibility to do that with someone from the insurance company. If they are to rely on the way things are now then a survey is a mute point.


Tell that to the insurance company ... don't think that call will last long.

They are selling something and if you want it you have to buy it on their terms or they won't sell it to you..... just the way it is.


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## Dog Ship (Sep 23, 2011)

boatpoker said:


> Tell that to the insurance company ... don't think that call will last long.
> 
> They are selling something and if you want it you have to buy it on their terms or they won't sell it to you..... just the way it is.


Yes, it would be a short phone call.
That's not going to stop me from bringing up the absurdity of it all when I do go in for insurance. Just because that is the way things have evolved over the years doesn't mean there is no room for change. 
Even yourself, who I assume does this for a living have brought up some good points that you feel are not right and are in need of change. 
This has been an excellent discussion on this topic I would like to thank you for your patience with this. All I need now is for the surveyor to actually forward me his results.
Merry Christmas Boatpoker.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

And a very safe and properous Christmas to you and yours.


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## Chamjam (Feb 19, 2012)

Excellent thread on surveys. As I ramp up my search to purchase a sailboat, I realize the necessity to have a good surveyor on your side. Unlike poetry, which you can immediately identify as good or bad, buying a boat in good condition takes the eyes and knowledge of an experienced person. This is especially true when the buyer is not " mechanically" or " structurally" experienced with boats!

As I live in Toronto area, I will DEFINITELY ask Boatpoker to survey my prospective purchase. I have researched surveyors in this area, and he has been highlighted in a number of enquiries.

Cheers and happy new year to all!


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## Marunio (Nov 30, 2007)

I have some limited experience, but I have bought so far 2 boats (1 with a survey) and had a couple more surveys done on boats I did not purchase.
Have also seen a number of different surveys as I am currently searching for a newer/larger boat.
My take on the topic: have a look at previous work done by a given surveyor before hiring him.
I have seen many surveys that just scrutinize obvious info lacking or missing details of great importance.
But you have to educate yourself first what is important....
Another issue is timing: during "spring rush" availability of guys like Boatpoker is limited so you have to plan accordingly.
m


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## ajoliver (Feb 23, 2007)

Another issue with surveys is the romantic rose-colored glasses that some buyers have which prevent them from fully grasping the importance of the flaws that are revealed. In my case, although the survey clearly stated that there was wet core, I unconsciously devalued its importance, and did not consider how expensive the repair would be. I'm glad I bought the boat, and still have it, but the core (and other) repairs were much more costly and time consuming than I had thought.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

ajoliver said:


> Another issue with surveys is the romantic rose-colored glasses that some buyers have which prevent them from fully grasping the importance of the flaws that are revealed. In my case, although the survey clearly stated that there was wet core, I unconsciously devalued its importance, and did not consider how expensive the repair would be. I'm glad I bought the boat, and still have it, but the core (and other) repairs were much more costly and time consuming than I had thought.


I think that is a hazard of human cognition. 
They don't let doctors treat family members.
I know of several people in the industry, real boat professionals, that have made significant errors when it came to their own projects that they would never make professionally.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

As some of you know, I have samples of my survey reports on my website. I come across a lot of other survey reports in my work and while some of them were obviously done by thorough, knowledgeable surveyors, some were done by charlatans.

Just for fun I have added a few of my favourite incompetent survey reports to that page.

It would be funny if it were not so sad.


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## Maine_bill (Jan 20, 2014)

Great information on surveys here.
But after reading most posts .... How does one "make an offer" on a boat in the WINTER if it's not advisable to do a survey on a FROZEN HULL/BOAT???? 

The broker says "after a satisfactory survey" (in the winter???), purchase the boat. Hold money in ESCROW pending sea trial. 

I guess the answer is... If the seller and broker won't work with you to survey in a better climate.... Walk away... Let the next person make the mistake!

Or is there a way to make an offer??? 

Bill


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Maine_bill said:


> Great information on surveys here.
> But after reading most posts .... How does one "make an offer" on a boat in the WINTER if it's not advisable to do a survey on a FROZEN HULL/BOAT????
> 
> The broker says "after a satisfactory survey" (in the winter???), purchase the boat. Hold money in ESCROW pending sea trial.
> ...


Bill, until this year I had always been able to survey right up to Christmas then there has always been a weeks thaw in January and February to squeeze in a few surveys. As we all know here in snow country that has not worked this year. I keep an eye on the weather daily as work backs up and see no survey weather windows in the next two weeks.

I think all you can do is make an offer pending the usual plus an acceptable "weather window of above zero for at least 48hrs".


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

In Maine zero is well below freezing. If the decks are wet they will be hard even just above freezing - 32 degrees F


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

mitiempo said:


> In Maine zero is well below freezing. If the decks are wet they will be hard even just above freezing - 32 degrees F


Sorry ... Canadian, thinking in Celsius.

I have found over many years that 48hrs above zero Celsius is sufficient and I cannot afford to take chances. My thoughts on the matter are .....
Surveying Frozen Boats and
Moisture Meter Mythology (recently re-written with many photos).


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

bill, everything is negotiable.

You can offer a deposit now, subject to survey and sea trial once the ice thaws, even if that's in 3 months, balance to be paid within etcetera, escrow etcetera...let the broker and seller know, you're serious, you're interested, and you want to work out ways around the obstructions.

Heck, you could offer to give them a deposit for a sale after the thaw, deposit guaranteeing you the right to first refusal (i.e. to match but not exceed any better offers they get) if there's another offer sooner. All sorts of creative ways that two or three minds can create a contract despite a little cold weather.

The worst they'll do is say no, and you can come back in the spring. If you haven't found something else first. As you can point out to the broker.


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## Sail444 (Feb 6, 2014)

Also be aware, that surveyors always have a disclaimer that they are not responsible for anything and, in most cases, cannot be held liable for any error or omission. The only time they can possibly be held liable is if they collude with the seller or buyer.

Still, banks and insurance companies place great credence on these surveys. So just be aware ... get good references and recommendations from other boat owners before hiring one.

Fair Winds,
Steve Szirom


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Sail444 said:


> Also be aware, that surveyors always have a disclaimer that they are not responsible for anything and, in most cases, cannot be held liable for any error or omission. The only time they can possibly be held liable is if they collude with the seller or buyer.
> 
> Still, banks and insurance companies place great credence on these surveys. So just be aware ... get good references and recommendations from other boat owners before hiring one.
> 
> ...


Not quite true. There are many instances of the courts over-riding those disclaimers.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

boatpoker said:


> Bill, until this year I had always been able to survey right up to Christmas then there has always been a weeks thaw in January and February to squeeze in a few surveys. As we all know here in snow country that has not worked this year. I keep an eye on the weather daily as work backs up and see no survey weather windows in the next two weeks.
> 
> I think all you can do is make an offer pending the usual plus an acceptable "weather window of above zero for at least 48hrs".


Would it be possible to do everything except the part that can only be done above freezing?
Then on a warm day knock out several hull and deck checks all at once.

Maybe their is too much driving, or maybe it is just too uncomfortable to any surveying when it is that cold.

What is the thinking there?


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

I just got lucky. I found this old hammer for five dollars.

The plan is to conspicuously display this obviously well used hammer when inspecting a potential boat.

They will assume I've had 40 plus years experience and figure it will be just less embarrassing to tell me the truth about all the half-assed repairs they had made over the years.

I also found Fluke meter at a pawn shop to complete the illusion.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

David, I have on occasion split surveys for various reasons but I'm not really comfortable with it even in good weather circumstances. Below freezing it's not only the tools (moisture meter & hammer) that don't work well, neither do I. For me the answer would be no.


Hey wanna sell that hammer ? It looks very experienced.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

boatpoker said:


> Below freezing it's not only the tools (moisture meter & hammer) that don't work well, neither do I. or me the answer would be no.
> 
> Hey wanna sell that hammer ? It looks very experienced.


Yes I find poking around a boat on the hard under a canvas just as the sun is going down when it is 20 degrees out to be a particularly unpleasant process, its just sad actually. I suspected surveyors take a break.

As far as the hammer goes I need it more than you.

I figure I'll make a padded fitted heirloom case for the hammer. I know how to distress the case so it will look as old as the hammer.

I'll take it out of the case and as I walk near different parts of the boat I'll see the terror in the eyes of the broker and owner. When I get to the the place where they are obviously uncomfortable I'll icily recommend that they just come clean and tell me what is wrong so I don't have to actually tap the hull and we all have to listen to that heart wrenching dull thud.

Might work huh!!

Being a surveyor you may find my "surveying story" amusing. This very nice doctors without borders doc and his young nurse friend bought a little boat and asked for my help sailing it and figuring out how the rig worked.
During my inspection I figured I would try out my new electophysics moisture meter. I knew how to calibrate it and had some idea of how to read it but had (have) limited experience with it. Every place I tried the meter, the whole deck, the cabin house, even the vertical sides not near any portholes showed totally saturated. I figured I was reading my meter wrong so I tried it on a neighbors boat and it read dry.

I was very puzzled as I had never seen a boat wet everyplace before. So while talking with the owner he mentioned that after buying the boat the guy he had looking out after it let it sink in a fresh water lake.
Apparently is was under water for quite a few days.

I think I solved the puzzle. I told the guy to sail the boat until he was sick of it and then get rid of it and not put any money into it.


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## Donald_Crowhurst (Jan 13, 2014)

Great thread and great information! Thank you all who contributed.
What are the essential questions to ask potential sureveyors for a pre purchase inspection?
Would it be prudent to have surveys done on a boat by different surveyors just in case each miss items?
For insurance purposes, I can understand the frustration of paying $500 for a driveby survey. For prepurchase, it seems the cost of the survey would be a great deal. In fact, I would be happy to pay more for a more thorough investigation into any vesel I am considering buying. $500 on a $100,000 boat is half a percent of the purchase price. That seems like mall beans. Heck, Califiornia is going to take another 8% of the purchase price for a lousy 2x2" sticker for the bow. 
My unique situation is that I am interested in buying a relatively rare boat loacted in semi remote Seward Alaska from a private party while residing in California. 
What are my best options to getting this boat 'properly' surveyed, both for me and the bank. As all can imagine, I dont want a driveby survey for a bank only to really find out what I got myself into during the 3000 mile voayage back to California.
All relies appreciated and thank you in advance.


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## Multihullgirl (Dec 2, 2010)

Find the best possible surveyor you can, regardless where he is, and then have him flown to your boat if they're not near each other. Depending on the price of the boat, the plane ticket will likely be well worth it for good survey


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

SAMS Surveyors in Alaska, Sepel & Steffen are very good, I don't know the others.

10 questions to find the right surveyor.


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