# Cruising the med from USA



## Denek (Feb 1, 2015)

Dear all. 
I have a few questions on the above. My wife and I are living in America currently and will be here for a further 2 years. I have noticed that boats here are significantly cheaper than in the uk or Europe. 
My main question is with regards to registration in the uk or Europe and if it is a requirement to do so. 
Our intention would probably be to bypass the UK and go straight to the med so can we not just leave the boat registered in the US. 
If we do not import the boat then would that not mean that we do not pay vat and would not have to worry about CE registration?
I know we would probably have an issue down the line when eel come to sell but apart from that I don't see a down side. 
The other issue is with the ICC. Is this a requirement if you have your own craft or just FO charter. 
We owned a boat in the uk which we sold before coming to America and have a reasonable amount of sailing under our belts but only land based formal qualifications. 
There does not seem to be an equivalent course here in the US that would automatically give you an ICC. I may be wrong but I have not seen any. So in a nutshell we would like to purchase a boat here in the US and sail it to the med to cruise for a few years. 
Any advice would be grately apriciated. 

BTW I would not try the Atlantic crossing myself but would get a skipper to help me. I don't have enough experience to go it alone.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

Where would you register the boat? As UK citizens you can not register a boat with the feds. State reg is not sufficient.

Even assuming you did there is a problem. See this section in Noonsite

Starting Some Frequently Asked Questions about the temporary importation of private non-EU vessels for use in the European Union.

http://www.noonsite.com/Countries/Spain/General/EuropeanUnion


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

I did it in the other direction. The government(s) will catch up with you. 

You could take a boat over registered in a US state but you might get hung up when you check into the EU and will certainly get hung up after the clock runs out (90 days I think). The only way I know of to avoid VAT is to not go home.

Understand that I'm a rule-bound kind of guy. 

If you buy a boat in the US and enroll it in the SSR you will pay VAT very shortly after entering the EU. The good news is that if you buy a new boat it will be a used boat after crossing the Atlantic and you might save a bit there. Conceivably even a used boat will be "more used" on arrival and cheaper. In addition you can choose the country you enter in - VAT is different in different EU member countries and it could be worth passing the UK and landing elsewhere to save VAT. What's a few more days after crossing the Atlantic?

You should also check if you can do C&I on entry (say in the Azores) and then import in some convenient low VAT country. That is outside my experience so you'll want to check with a tax attorney or accountant.


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## willyd (Feb 22, 2008)

I crewed on a brand new 45' Jeanneau being delivered from France to Turkey a few years ago. The boat was registered in Delaware to avoid taxes. Don't know much more than that.


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## Denek (Feb 1, 2015)

All looks pretty complicated nothing ever seems to be easy. We have a house in Cyprus which appears to be one of the countries that you could go to to start the clock again. I will take some time and read through all this thanks guys.


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## Denek (Feb 1, 2015)

Just to add to the last post. 
Part of the reason for thinking of buying a boat in the States aside from the obvious cost of purchase is that we sold our boat in the uk before we came here and I miss her. We are currently sailing a GP 14😊 Not quite what I am used to these days. We figured that we could do a little sailing here over the next 2 years. 
We also considered taking a trip to the Caribbean once we finish work before heading back to Europe. As I stated before I don't think I would take the Atlantic challenge without an experienced skipper on board. I have no idea how much this would cost.

Our other option is to buy the boat in the med. there seems to be some bargains to be had in Greece. Just means we will be back to the GP14 for the next couple of years.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Two years and a Caribbean side trip is a lot of sailing.. why not buy a boat here now, use it to advantage and sell if necessary before heading back across the pond? It takes away a potential crossing, I suppose, but also the cost of a delivery skipper - that money could be put towards the eventual EU VAT paid boat you find then.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

willyd said:


> I crewed on a brand new 45' Jeanneau being delivered from France to Turkey a few years ago. The boat was registered in Delaware to avoid taxes. Don't know much more than that.


It's a myth that Delaware registration avoids sales, use or VAT-like taxes. They are all driven by where the boat actually is and for how long. Delaware does have favorable corporate legal protection, which is a valid reason for considering the formation of a shell company in DE to own your boat. But it would need to have some business purposes to matter. If you're at the helm, you get sued, no matter who or what owns the boat.

Of course, that's not to say that some don't try this method of getting away from the tax guy. However, that's considered willful tax evasion, not just an innocent mistake.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Dumb question. How does all this tie into getting back and forth across the Atlantic ? Let's say you are a US citizen on a US doc.d boat. How do you time things to make use of the best seasons for the crossings but not run afoul of EU rules? Looks like a two year cruise?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

outbound said:


> Dumb question. How does all this tie into getting back and forth across the Atlantic ? Let's say you are a US citizen on a US doc.d boat. How do you time things to make use of the best seasons for the crossings but not run afoul of EU rules? Looks like a two year cruise?


I've explored the same head scratcher and have not found a clearly good plan. My wife is a British citizen (dual with US), so that might buy us some additional time in Schengen, but the last thing I want to do is import my boat into the Eurozone.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

outbound said:


> Dumb question. How does all this tie into getting back and forth across the Atlantic ? Let's say you are a US citizen on a US doc.d boat. How do you time things to make use of the best seasons for the crossings but not run afoul of EU rules? Looks like a two year cruise?


It's a good question.

There has been some fiddly change around the edges of things but Jack Tyler's treatment is still a good primer. Whoosh . Click on the Cruising Europe box and you'll see five or six articles.

There is a good update on Noonsite http://www.noonsite.com/Countries/Greece/Schengen-Visas-and-VAT-Cruisers-Reports .

My observation is that people get crosswise with regulations most often because they lose sight of the difference between their boat (mostly customs and other import regulation) and themselves (visas and other immigration regulation). I've never spent enough time there by boat to go through all the issues myself. When I lived in Nederland and later the UK I had work permits which made things much easier.


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## Denek (Feb 1, 2015)

A VAT-paid boat can remain permanently in the EU and be sailed by anyone, whether an EU resident or not.

Above is taken from the no onsite information. So if the boat is purchased in the USA then sailed across by an EU resident. Then imported into a country with low VAT and the VAT paid then the boat can be used for as long as you like by whoever wants to. 

Am I reading this right?


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## chuck5499 (Aug 31, 2003)

We are Americans and sail a Us purchased boat. We are not state registered but CG documented. We sailed the Caribbean for a few years and then did a 2 handed Atlantic crossing in 2013. We have not paid VAT as we are not in the EU for that long mainly because of Schengen. But we have known of a more than a few boats that avoid the VAT by simply sailing out of the EU to a non EU country, check in check out and back to the EU. 
I do not see your problem but maybe I am just not getting it. 
Unless you are an EU citizen you will have a much greater problem with Schengen. 
And of course a boat purchased in the US will have 110v and propane is different and may be hard to get filled. We struggle with that last one some times. 
Specific questions please let us know.


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## Denek (Feb 1, 2015)

Hi Chuck5499. 
I guess it's just knowing what to do for the best. We are here for another two years. I have a social security number in New Jersey which is a feat in itself. 
I have found that we have had terrible difficulty registering anything in New Jersey. We have a Harly which took about 2 months to register. And we had similar issues with the car. 
If I buy a boat here will I need to register it in the state. You say yours is not registered so assume not. 
If I just buy the boat then sail it back to the med what would be the issues. UK is not part of Stengen however is an EU member ( until this summer at least) we plan to sail Greece and turkey. We have a house in Cyprus so will not be cruising all the time. 
We had planned to spend the spring summer and part of Autumn sailing and retreat to the house in winter with a trip or two home to England in the mix. 
I am tempted just to find the boat and get it into the med and take my chances. 
Do you use a transformer to get your voltage down? 
I suppose with the gas it's not too difficult or expensive to fit a new cooker. 
Is there anything else that could cause an issue do you know? 
I have seen there are an awful lot of boats down in Florida and we are heading down there in August so you never know. And I suppose whilst we are here it would be crazy not to spend some time in the Caribbean.we have time to sort this out so I will keep plugging away till I find the best answer. 
At least if I sail a boat back it will save me shipping my "stuff" home. Won't get the Harly in though.


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## chuck5499 (Aug 31, 2003)

Denek -- we bought new for a broker in Conn and we lived in Fla. We did a straight CG documentation and never did a register thing in Fla where you get Fla numbers. We did pay our tax in Fla through. 
As for the gas - you may be able or you can convert the hoses to EU style fittings and no problem. I am not sure on the regulator but the cooker is no issue. 
Electricity - yes we run a 3,000w invertor. Our biggest power drain when we are hold up is our heater at 1,500w and our water heater at 1,500w - no we do not run them at the same time. But in the Med as you know you sail about 6-7 months and sit the rest. 
The issue of the documentation and VAT is a real one but very easily overcome and there are hundreds of boats here doing that. You just need to sail to a non EU country and clear in and out. It take as little as 24 hours. There are friends of yours who run a little business tending to the megayachts who go to Tunisia to get out of the EU for a day to keep from paying VAT. Very doable. 
When you say sailing the Carib you mean sailing the Eastern Carib. It is generally good sailing up and down the chain and fun place to test your skills in decent and predictable weather. 

hope that helps a bit


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

chuck5499 said:


> Denek -- we bought new for a broker in Conn and we lived in Fla. We did a straight CG documentation and never did a register thing in Fla where you get Fla numbers. We did pay our tax in Fla through.....


Was the boat ever in FL? If not, I can't think of any reason you owed them tax.

I also don't know of a single State that will turn it down.


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## chuck5499 (Aug 31, 2003)

Minnewaska said:


> Was the boat ever in FL? If not, I can't think of any reason you owed them tax.
> 
> I also don't know of a single State that will turn it down.


First you need to have your boat somewhere and have to pay sales tax on it. And yes I was living in Fla when I got the boat and it made sense to pay the sales tax there instead of somewhere else and bring it to Fla and have a hassle with the Fla folks over the boat and the licenses.


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

I know nothing of cruising the Med. I will say this:

Rhode Island seems like a nice place to buy and document a boat.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

chuck5499 said:


> First you need to have your boat somewhere and have to pay sales tax on it. And yes I was living in Fla when I got the boat and it made sense to pay the sales tax there instead of somewhere else and bring it to Fla and have a hassle with the Fla folks over the boat and the licenses.


Unfortunately, Chuck, that is not true, you don't have to pay in some circumstances. You only owe sales tax where you purchase and most states have an exclusion, if you are removing the property from their state within a window they define. That's why you often don't pay sales tax on items you buy over the Internet and are shipped to you, unless the vendor also has a store in your state.

You never owe Sales tax to a state you didn't purchase or take delivery in. You only owe Use tax in a State you use the boat in.

For example, if a FL resident buys a boat in RI, which has no sales tax, and keeps it in RI, which has no use tax, they pay no one anything. If you sent a gratuitous check to FL, they would be happy to accept it.

I do understand you would could FL if you brought the boat there, but my initial query was based upon the assumption you never did.


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## chuck5499 (Aug 31, 2003)

We bought our boat in Conn and moved it to Fla where we were residence. We made it CG documented instead of state registered but if you keep the boat in Fla you have to buy a year sticker and to get the first one you have to pay the sales tax in Fla.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

chuck5499 said:


> We bought our boat in Conn and moved it to Fla where we were residence....


Got it now. Full on tax due to FL, because you brought the boat there.


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## chuck5499 (Aug 31, 2003)

Minnewaska said:


> Got it now. Full on tax due to FL, because you brought the boat there.


Nope we bought and paid for the boat in Conn but did not pay sales tax in Conn. We moved the boat to Fla and paid the tax there and got our little widow stickers until we headed out --


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

chuck5499 said:


> Nope we bought and paid for the boat in Conn but did not pay sales tax in Conn. We moved the boat to Fla and paid the tax there and got our little widow stickers until we headed out --


I wrote brought, not bought. I think we're on the same page now.


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## CptBob (Aug 22, 2015)

Denek said:


> Dear all.
> I have a few questions on the above. My wife and I are living in America currently and will be here for a further 2 years. I have noticed that boats here are significantly cheaper than in the uk or Europe.
> My main question is with regards to registration in the uk or Europe and if it is a requirement to do so.
> Our intention would probably be to bypass the UK and go straight to the med so can we not just leave the boat registered in the US.
> ...


Pretty good pod'caster out there with good info on this who lives in Salt Lake City, leaves his boat in the Med mostly in Turkey I believe. He did exactly what you are proposing (sailed his boat across) and has avoided VAT. You might check him out at Sailing in the Mediterranean and I've no vested interest just a listener to his podcast.

- Cpt. Bob


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## Denek (Feb 1, 2015)

Thanks for all his info guys. Really useful. 
We are on vacation currently on Saint Martin in the Caribbean.
I am so tempted now to change our plans and once we finish work in two years come down here and spend at least one season here before we head to the med. 
we had been to the Caribbean several times before but I had forgotten how beautiful it was and the constant steady breeze just makes you want to get out on a boat. 
Going to a have a look at some boats whilst we are here.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

There's an nearly new outbound for sale down there for short money given what's in the boat. Did one SDR and then lightly sailed. Know the owner well. Killed multiple bottles of scotch with him. Boat is Bristol fashion. Worth a look.


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## Denek (Feb 1, 2015)

Sadly out of time now. We leave on Sunday morning. 
Do you have a location and a rough price?


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