# What makes an "Old Shoe" an Old Shoe?



## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

There's been some debate since Giulietta posted this term but no attempt to define what an Old Shoe is or isn't. Take Oh Joy for instance. She was built in 1961 as a wooden yawl, displaces 14,500 # and has a waterline of around 26'. However, I've seen her maintain speeds of 7.5 upwind and as much as 9 downwind before surfing. She's been clocked at 14 surfing in beam seas. So, is an Old Shoe a full keel boat? I don't think so cause Oh Joy has full keel with a cut away forefoot. Is it the performance range in certain wind ranges? Westsail 32's are notoriously slow but can sail comfortably when other boats are getting thrashed. 

Let's nail this down...


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

To me its the sailing performance i had a Victoria 18 ,first new boat i ever owned and it could not sail out its own way which lead to buying the first J24 as we kept seeing them pass us in pretty moderate conditions when we could not get anywhere on the 18

And there are boats like the Dana 24 moored near me and while i am sure it would be the way to go in a storm it takes a storm to get the boat going


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

Tommays, I hear ya!

I own a Beneteau and have been out in conditions that made me wish that I was out on my buddy's Island Packet.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Every well-designed boat will meet its designed purpose. Sometimes that involves speed with little priority on comfort or stowage, and sometimes that means an almost-galleon-like ability to stow enough stores and gear to go to Antarctica and back safely, but at a pace some would consider doddering.

Any boat must be evaluated in this light: Does it meet or exceed what the owners desired to do with it? You can't call the 1930s-designed and 1950s cruised _Wanderer III_ or _Tzu Hang _"old shoes", by this measure, even though they were conservative, relatively slow boats, because they went where no small yachts had cruised before, and despite getting smashed about, neither sank nor killed their crews in very adverse circumstances. They were even on occasion raced for fun.

Some modern production cruisers don't do ANYTHING well, because they are a compromise between being racers vs. cruisers, entertainment centres vs. working sailboats, and condos vs. cruisers. You could call them "new old shoes", I suppose, because they are at their best left in the "shoe box" formed by two dock fingers.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Hey, when the Old Shoe thing popped up it was meant to be derogatory but was it in reality a back handed , albeit unintentional , compliment ?

I like old shoes. 

Old shoes are comfortable.

Old shoes have character.

Keep 'em well polished and in good condition and an old shoe beats a new shoe hands down.

As for boats, for me they are meant to be holistic. Its not just how fast, its not just how roomy, its not just how big, its not just how much money. Its a combination that makes you feel good about yourself and your boat.

So does your boat make you smile ? Answer yes, then within the definition originally suggested, its not an old shoe.


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

From reading earlier posts about "old shoes" it seems to me an old shoe is any boat that some other smart-a$$ with a fancy boat thinks isn't as good as his.

If your boat (or the one you want to buy) meets your needs in terms of speed, comfort, safety and operational cost then it's a good boat even when the said smart-a$$ says it's not.


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## WouldaShoulda (Oct 7, 2008)

If it's YOUR boat it'a an Old Shoe!!


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## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

Are you talking to me? Are you talking to ME? Ya must be talk... oh wait, I've seen that movie. Nah, ya ain't talking to me, not about this old girl anyways...










Old shoe she ain't...


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## bobmcgov (Jul 19, 2007)

Possibly a Portugese idiom, and idioms don't translate well. I took it to mean sailboats designed largely by rule of thumb, lofted with battens, and styled after certain traditional uses and aesthetics. Might be easier to stipulate what isn't "old shoe": computer-designed hull forms with fine entries, no overhangs; wide beam carried all the way aft; crisp chines & flat bottoms for planing; deep, high-aspect keel with bulb; wheel steering, preferably two; bright, low-fuss interiors; more electronics than a video arcade; high-aspect, roachy, full-battened main; sprit or prod for reaching headsail & asym; tech-fabric sails throughout.

A Jeanneau 42 is not an old shoe. Looks more like a blindingly-high-tech basketball or tennis shoe endorsed by billionaire athletes. Which is fine if you play that sport, or if you want to impress other people. I stand on a concrete floor all day, so all I care about is something with solid stitching, hard-wearing leather uppers, good traction, and arch support. If I can find that at KMart prices, all the better.

Old shoes probably look like herring boats: long overhangs, bluff bows, lots of sheer, boxy or bubble coach roofs, low volume, tumblehome and pinched sterns. No carbon, short masts, skeg-hung (or God help us, keel-hung) rudders. Hanked-on headsails, tiller steering, a distinct lack of cup holders. You may have to stoop belowdecks, and you may need to look at shroud telltales or a masthead fly because someone failed to provide you with digital apparent-wind dials.

I'm cool with all that. As others have said: old shoes fit the purpose, and I have better things to do with my money than plonk $200 on a pair of Zoom Kobe IIIs, ya know? They look like they were made by Beneteau.:laugher


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

boats with crappy prfh ratings


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## parttimesailor (Sep 18, 2006)

CharlieCobra said:


> Are you talking to me? Are you talking to ME? Ya must be talk... oh wait, I've seen that movie. Nah, ya ain't talking to me, not about this old girl anyways...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


...beautiful she is.


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## Joesaila (May 19, 2007)

*An Old Shoe...*

Our boat is an old shoe. Shoal draft and beamy...If I could swing it, I'd get an IP or Hans Christian. I like comfort...more than racing.


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## bobmcgov (Jul 19, 2007)

But G didn't mean it as an insult. I'm guessing the Portugese have complicated relationships with boats, the way Americans do with cars. Consider the '56 Cadillac.










Compared to modern cars, it's objectively a turd. It had a huge engine, but no horsepower. The ride was soft -- but it cornered like a pregnant sow. Braking, acceleration, suspension, lumbar support, safety, climate control, radio ... all inadequate for modern needs. And reliability? You'd probably get 50k out of her before every major system started to fail. A new Lexus is infinitely better in every way.

And yet ... and yet. People lust for the old Caddys. People polish all that chrome and add pinstripes and hang fuzzy dice on the rearview. *shrug* The boats I like are rugged, wet, cramped, and fairly slow. But they make my heart go pitty-pat in a way modern boats do not. Charlie's _Oh Joy_ speaks to me more than a poochy white Beneteau.


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## adru (Oct 18, 2008)

Big cars are often called boats. My folks old Town & Country station wagon used to be a big old boat. The body seemed to float above the chassis and it turned and stopped with as much finesse as the Titanic trying to avoid an iceberg.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Omatako said:


> From reading earlier posts about "old shoes" it seems to me an old shoe is any boat that some other smart-a$$ with a fancy boat thinks isn't as good as his.
> 
> If your boat (or the one you want to buy) meets your needs in terms of speed, comfort, safety and operational cost then it's a good boat even when the said smart-a$$ says it's not.


yes...just confirmed by suspicions...you are an idiot...and one with class, courage and poise, too...likes to say things, when people aren't here to defend themselves...true man...


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## tager (Nov 21, 2008)

I don't really care that my boat is an old shoe. If I wanted to go fast and shiny, I would have a motorcycle, not a sailboat!


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## artbyjody (Jan 4, 2008)

Giulietta said:


> yes...just confirmed by suspicions...you are an idiot...and one with class, courage and poise, too...likes to say things, when people aren't here to defend themselves...true man...


Gui once again you are taking things too personally...

Old shoe has it beginnings in about the mid 1800's boat wise. At that time up until the mid 1930s boats were designed with large everything. It was the smell however that in the 1960's got popularized the saying "old shoe". Nautically that meant that you walked on and the boat had an aura of being well used. Kinda like your favorite slippers or foot wear. But it was also about design.

Stephenson and Sparksman ( tilting a bit back here so mind me) introduced some of the slimmer versions of sail boats we see today. Prior to - everything was about functionality. How much cargo can it hold etc. When you look through history and realize that up to about 1920-30's - sailboats were not a nomenclature common to the rest of of us.

Old shoe refers to classics that have distinct flairs and personailty (determined by smell, shape, etc...). Hard to nail down where the saying was first nailed in - but, when you look at the older wooden boats etc one can se where the overlap of an old shoe and boat design for the masses overlap...


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Jody..what the hell are you talking about??

yes..it was me that invented the old shoe name...nothing of it is what that guy from down under, all self important is talking about...it has nothing to do with age..on the contrary...

Old Shoes are the Valiants, the Cabo Rico's the Hans Slowensens...and the new boats they make now that weigh 45 tons, and sail like crap, in exchange of "solid" blue water reputations..filled with useless wood trims, and other features...boats that look like sailboats, with bow sprits and short masts, and sailplans of optimists, with gigantic head sails that go nowhere, whose owners spend more time feeding diesel pumps than sailing!!

And can't sail if the wind is high, and can' sail if there is no wind..

That's an old shoe!!


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## artbyjody (Jan 4, 2008)

Giulietta said:


> Jody..what the hell are you talking about??
> 
> yes..it was me that invented the old shoe name...nothing of it is what that guy from down under, all self important is talking about...it has nothing to do with age..on the contrary...
> 
> ...


Your describing new shoes that hope will be old...one day...


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Jody..the truth is very very few ever understood what I mean by old shoe..then you get guys that think they know what I mean and get all defensive and what not, of their boats..and tell everyone they have old shoes and are proud of them..nha nha nha..and Alex is mean..he said my boat's an old shoe,,bad man..bad man...when I never said anything about their boats (I don't even care what boats they have..really don't)
..they did!!!! but get mad at me........I actually enjoy seeing them bite the bones and get all feisty...

you know what? let them have the bone....I am slowly fading away...better things to do...sloooowly dropping the lines....and vanishing in the horizon..in my clorox bottle....other places to visit...other folks to meet....while the bones get chewed.....over here...vanishing...slowly.....

good bye...old friends..good bye......

everything in life has a birth..a life and a death...everything has a cycle...mine's done, end of cycle....just done...we have memories..that's all...

you know where you can find me.....


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## bobmcgov (Jul 19, 2007)

Two words, Alex:

Teak. Decks.


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

An old shoe is usually well worn and in need of some brightwork; but once re-soled and polished it still looks has it's classic good looks and feels better than a new "made in china" shoe ever will.

I don't think anyone has called your boat a bleach bottle or a poorly designed or built boat Giu; on the contrary and I'm sure that many people wish they could buy a new boat like yours. But many people here find themselves in the position of not wanting to buy what is currently available in the market of new racer/cruisers because of either construction quality (which is by far inferior to your boat); or cost (~10/20k per foot for new vs 1/2k per foot for a used boat). So for many it's not a question of new or old shoe; it's more a question of "which old shoe fits best"?

When it comes to proven offshore designs many of the boats you list as "old shoes" are considered desirable for going across oceans. While I don't necessarily disagree with you about performance; they are proven designs for storm survival which is a consideration when "picking the right shoe". I would not go rock climbing in a pair of topsiders, or run a 10k in a pair of hiking boots.


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## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

I'd love to have a boat like Giulietta. Who wouldn't want to be able to cruise at 10-14 knots and still have the niceties that are aboard her? Not having the coin for something like that, I went a totally different and unplanned route and am really happy I did.


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## Mimsy (Mar 22, 2009)

Giulietta is gorgeous. Arctic Lady and Oh Joy are gorgeous as well, in a different way. The old eye of the beholder and all that.
An old shoe to me is comfortable, broken in, predictable and sturdy. I like old shoe boats but could be just as happy with a "new shoe", especially if the new shoe was an Oyster 575.

Just like the shoes I wear on my feet- on some days I like my LL Bean Duck boots ,on some days I prefer my Jimmy Choo's. It all depends on where I am going, who am I going with and what the weather is like!


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

CharlieCobra said:


> Old shoe she ain't...


Indeed, and I note you use the mizzen as a riding sail at anchor. Does she "hunt" at anchor with that? I've seen a riding sail that looked like twin storm jibs over a single backstay, but not a mizzen.


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## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

She doesn't hunt around much at all with the Mizzen up, unless the winds are light and variable. You have to sheet it hard though or she will hunt. I'm looking to add backing sheets to the Mizzen to address the slop when at center.


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## JomsViking (Apr 28, 2007)

As long as we do not have a clear defintion of an "Old Shoe", this is going to be based on feeling/myth/prejudice. 
IMHO some boats (which I believe comes close to Giu's definition) are just "over-built". Recently i helped deliver a steel-boat that has almost all the characteristics that often gets associated with a bluewater boat. To make a long story short, it was too heavy, too slow, and did not have a nice motion in the steep seas we were sailing in, and I would NEVER cross an ocean in that boat.
Btw. I think Hal Roth said that he could sail figure 8's around a Westsail, and he owned a Wauquiez Pretorien, which he cruised extensively.


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

Giulietta said:


> yes...just confirmed by suspicions...you are an idiot...and one with class, courage and poise, too...likes to say things, when people aren't here to defend themselves...true man...


Clearly you are here to defend yourself . . . . and you feel a need to.

Welcome back (assuming you were ever gone.)

Oh Geeez, now we have to say goodbye all over again . . .


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Since Giu coined the term, shouldn’t he be the one to define it? Out here on the coast “old shoes” are also known as “crab crushers”, “lead mines” and such. If you own one, embrace it, or buy a different boat. Westsails are affectionately known as “wet snails” and “went slow” for obvious reasons. And to show you that I’m an equal opportunity insulter, I sail a “Clorox bottle” also known as a “Winnebago”, though we affectionately call her our “family station wagon”.


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## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

Now my little V-21 is a Clorox bottle...


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Now Charlie, did you think she was anything else? As for O Joy!, she would be known as a “woodie”, or more formally a “master mariner” (You guys even have your own society). All of us Tupperware and Clorox bottle drivers have the deepest respect for you guys who toil to keep your boats free of rot and bright work, well, bright. Speaking of which, when will you post the next set of pictures? Love looking at the progress.


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## poopdeckpappy (Jul 25, 2006)

We have an old shoe and a Clorox Bottle, we live on the old shoe, we're making the old shoe pretty again, the old shoe gets sailed a lot , the Clorox Bottle hosts UFC fight night dinners, there's nothing better than a good UFC fight, Rubio's Beach Mex platter and a Corona w/ lime, expect sailing the old shoe


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## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

George, expect more next week. Between the weather, having to do stuff around the house and actually look for gainful employment, I couldn't work on her this week. 

"Master Mariner" I kinda like that. Considering she sailed around the horn the wrong way some years back, I suppose she qualifies.


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## sailingmum (Feb 28, 2009)

Oh Joy is a true beauty !

There are old shoes and old shoes... depends on the original craftsmanship, as well as how they are cared for and loved, don't you think ?

And I'm curious - what's the boat that's your avatar ?



CharlieCobra said:


> I'd love to have a boat like Giulietta. Who wouldn't want to be able to cruise at 10-14 knots and still have the niceties that are aboard her? Not having the coin for something like that, I went a totally different and unplanned route and am really happy I did.


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## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

That's Bernard Stamm in a Cyclone during a ocean racing event in the Bay of Biscay. I believe it's an Open 60.

I agree about the craftsmanship. Oh Joy was built like a tank so she's solid. Good thing too as she was unloved for a while before I got her.


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## timebandit (Sep 18, 2002)

Since you have moved to another table maybe someone will foward this to you and explain it's meaning.



Giulietta said:


> Jody..the truth is very very few ever understood what I mean by old shoe..then you get guys that think they know what I mean and get all defensive and what not, of their boats..and tell everyone they have old shoes and are proud of them..nha nha nha..and Alex is mean..he said my boat's an old shoe,,bad man..bad man...when I never said anything about their boats (I don't even care what boats they have..really don't)
> ..they did!!!! but get mad at me........I actually enjoy seeing them bite the bones and get all feisty...
> 
> you know what? let them have the bone....I am slowly fading away...better things to do...sloooowly dropping the lines....and vanishing in the horizon..in my clorox bottle....other places to visit...other folks to meet....while the bones get chewed.....over here...vanishing...slowly.....
> ...


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## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

timebandit said:


> Since you have moved to another table maybe someone will foward this to you and explain it's meaning.


And what exactly, gives you the right to call Alex a Poser? Where are your contributions to the sailing public up here on Sailnet or elsewhere? Oh, that's right, you don't have any.... Stick to your little patch of water for us will ya? At least, if your contributions are gonna be like the quote above.


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

Rick's sig said:


> Rick
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He's on the who's who list of "posers"...


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## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

I saw that but chose to leave it be... Far be for me, an owner and sailor of a Venture (Mac) 21, to mention what someone sails...

We all know Alex can be an opinionated a$$ but he more than balances with contributions and real friendship. Ain't nobody perfect....


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

CharlieCobra-

It is easy for people like Timebandit and K1VSK to take potshots at people who actually contribute to this site. They contribute little and need to inflate their little egos by doing so.

Here's a classic example of such a potshot:


k1vsk said:


> WM wrote something EVERY similar and it is available at their stores for free as a handout. They also have documents which discusses a myriad of other topics including ropes, hardware, clothing, anchor choices, head/holding tank treatments, etc., some of which get plagarized here from time to time.


His very lame follow-up is as follows:


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## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

I guess they got their Reps from longevity eh?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

if they had gotten them based on what other users thought of them, they'd have more green boxes.



CharlieCobra said:


> I guess they got their Reps from longevity eh?


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

The old shoe definition has been misunderstood, even by me, perhaps at times, even by Alex.

I'll try to set things straight. I might actually get it right.

the age of the boat has nothing to do with it. New boats can be old shoe, old boats might not be. It's design and usage.

If your boat is so slow you have to start the motor to tack, you have an old shoe.
If you have to motor in less than a 10k breeze, you have an old shoe.
If you are loaded down so much your water line changed 8" you're fast creating an old shoe.
If you load every spare inch of the decks with jerry jugs, BBQ's, kayaks, dingy motors, etc, you're fast creating an old shoe.
If you have too little sail available to get er going, you have an old shoe.

Some boats will partially qualify as old shoe, some are dead on old shoe and some really would take a lot to make into old shoes.

Some old shoes are perfectly suited for their intended use. But some old shoes are rather inapropriate for the actual use. Like seeing a Hummer driven by mom to the suburban grocery store after a stop at starbucks. Nothing wrong with a hummer, used by the military in combat. But really rather ridiculous for grocery shopping. Unless you are grocery shopping in Bagdad (or Detroit).


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

To me having a lot of experience with your boat, knowing it's ins-and-outs, knowing how she handles, what her strengths and weaknesses are, etc, makes her a good team with her captain, a good fit. The more experience you get with your boat, modifications you make, and that kind of thing, the more she will fit you and you her, the better suited you are to one another, and the better the two of you will make your way.

To me "*old shoe*" is the same thing except maybe the captain and the boat have a little TOO MUCH experience with each other, maybe the captain knows just a little more than he should about her motor, perhaps that rudder has been welded maybe one too many times, her sails patched with loving care just a little too much, etc. No matter how much you adore your boat, at some point ... maybe it is time to consider moving on.


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## sailingmum (Feb 28, 2009)

*What are those little green boxes ?*

How do you rak up those little green boxes... ? How does that work ?



sailingdog said:


> if they had gotten them based on what other users thought of them, they'd have more green boxes.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Rep Power is gained by several factors, including how long you've been a member and from direct member feedback. If you like a post a person has written, you can click on the scales in the upper right corner and leave them feedback saying so. Previously, negative comments were also allowed, and a few rare members, who were less than polite, managed to rack up negative rep, and have red boxes...

IIRC, the more positive feedback you get, the more green boxes.



sailingmum said:


> How do you rak up those little green boxes... ? How does that work ?


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## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

He's BANNED, that's who he is ha ha!


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Woah - did I just go through a wormhole or did TJ's posts actually get jettisoned?


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

I don't blame them for that.
I deserve it. Good to see the mods are on top of things. LOL!


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Whew - thought I was getting old and Alz-y like Sway. Man that dude pushed your buttons! In the midst of your fury, you even harshed BFS! I'm just glad to see rationality win the day and you back to your senses.

BTW - I hope you don't mind, but I used one of your best-ever BFS quotes this weekend. Good stuff. Good times.


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

Smacky,
I think you got me mixed up with somebody else.
I don't remember having any good BFS lines.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

C'mon dude, you sell yourself short! This was one of the best ever - back in the good old FightClub days. It's the only reason I have any respect for you whatsoever! (heh-heh)



sailortjk1 said:


> Charlie, ya should have been on L Michigan yesterday. We had steady 20knots from the NE. Went out in building seas. (2-4 foot chop quickly building to 4-6)
> 
> The Dog got seasick and the wife got mad that I would not head for cover. She got even madder when the words "Suck it Up" came out of my mouth. Than she got really mad when she took and elbow to the forehead as I was trimming the Genny.
> 
> ...


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

When you come here as a newbi its NOT like SA but i have seen plenty of things that were HARSH until you took the time to realize the total picture 


And if your going to sling crap in good fun you have to be prepared that NOT everybody is going to get IT and may throw some back


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Tom - that's the truth. I learned that myself on the pointy end.

However, as you might imagine, I will say that I personally think people get a little too tender around here sometimes - firing back with all cannons when a newb spouts off instead of keeping it fun. I don't want this place to be SA - it's great as it is; a really good mix of smack-talk, humor, and TREMENDOUS sailing info and stories - without the in-your-face profanity, etc. of SA. But I've never agreed that a newb has to reach a certain level of posts, or do a certain amount of research, or like certain people, or boats, or macerators, etc. to come on the site and throw down his/her opinions. I don't even care when they are obviously trying to light it up. But when they do so and begin to endure the beat down that inevitably comes with such comments - I say let 'em fight it out. I think that most of the time the return fire is just as harsh as the newbs attempts. And I think the general "troll trigger" around here is too often pulled.

Sure it can get ugly - but just look at the tremendous asset to this forum that I've become after my auspicious entry into the world of Sailnet! (This is the softball pitch, Dog. Oh yeah, you played chess - nevermind.)

Seriously, my recommendation to all lurkers-cum-newbs that tend to be loudmouthed, smacktalking, muckraking, opinionated, blowhards is to take it to FightClub first. Don't spam the whole board with your rant. Keep it focused - then fight it out and see if you can prove your point without going supernova and getting banned. It's way more fun that way.


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## timebandit (Sep 18, 2002)

nah


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## timebandit (Sep 18, 2002)

not yet


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