# Cuba Travel Restrictions



## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

They are revisiting the Cuba Travel Restrictions for US Citizens. THis should be interesting as I agree that for the first time in memory, it has a decent chance of passing.

Bill to allow travel to Cuba has a better shot - CNN.com

- CD


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## Mimsy (Mar 22, 2009)

I hope it passes. I fail to understand why it would be harmful for US citizens to visit or trade with Cuba because they are "evil communists" yet it is ok for a bunch of US companies to move their manufacturing to China. Last time I checked, China was hardly a democracy.

I hope it passes and quickly. Being able to go to Cuba would open up a whole bunch of carribean cruising destinations for us.


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## jldooley (Aug 1, 2007)

This can be debated ad infinitum.

However, examining the historical example/ business created opinion/ Pepsi & Kentucky fried chicken fell the USSR not, Ray gun and massive defense spending.
If Cuba becomes a US ‘allowed’ vacation spot the current government / political climate will change within 3 years. The all mighty Dollar will do for Democracy, what 10000 years of isolation and white hooded isolationist policy cannot. 

G.f.y.s.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

The dollar isn't going to be so almighty if you keep printing it 24/7, but I concur that the way to change the Cuban "system" is to present an alternative face-to-face.

When the Cubans see how the Americans aren't wildly different from the Europeans and Canadians they already see a fair bit of (except for the "being armed" part), they will realize the true worth of the propaganda they've been fed along with the beans and rice for the last 50 years.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

*Long Overdue*

I hope one day to sail from Key West to Cuba. For anyone 40 or over it will be a unique experience. Those under 40 won't really understand why it's a big deal.

Jim


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## AE28 (Jun 20, 2008)

jldooley said:


> This can be debated ad infinitum.
> 
> However, examining the historical example/ business created opinion/ Pepsi & Kentucky fried chicken fell the USSR not, Ray gun and massive defense spending.
> If Cuba becomes a US 'allowed' vacation spot the current government / political climate will change within 3 years. The all mighty Dollar will do for Democracy, what 10000 years of isolation and white hooded isolationist policy cannot.
> ...


Well said!!!

Unfortunately, it seems the only thing politicians and bureaucrats learn from history is NOTHING!!!


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

For the under 40 members, a post a made I made a while back. I too would like to sail to Cuba someday! The guy that cuts my hair is Cuban. The last time he visited (a few years ago) he was not allowed to leave for the US until he came up with cash. It extended his trip by 2 extra weeks.

A birthday to remember,

A six grade school boy living in northern Indiana, What does he have to do with Cuba?

Late summer 1962, A car comes to the house with a Western Union Telegram. Mom and Dad go out to the back porch to "talk."

Mom and Dad come back in and say Dad has to go back to the Navy. He was a Capt. Navel reserve at the time and his last command was a destroyer in Korea. He had 48 hours to report. Where you going Dad? I don't know was his response. When are going to be back? I don't know.

Some time later they started talking about Cuba on the old black and white Zenith. That must be where's dad going. Mom why is dad going to Cuba? I don't know was the response.

A few more days go by and the Zenith says there are Missiles in Cuba and they are pointed at us. Mom why do they have missiles pointed at us. I don't know. Mom always had all the answers!!!

That night Grissom Air force base went on alert. Grissom was a SAC base and we lived 10 miles off the end of the runway. B52's, B58's, KC 135's. rolling off the runway Every 1 to 2 minutes. I liked watching the planes. I walked back in the house and I could see that my mom was scared, I had never seen her that way before. Mom, why are you scared? Oh, I don't know was her response.

The Zenith said Navel blockade, now I get it. You go Dad!!! Hey mom, Dad's in Cuba and he going to kick some arse. Don't you talk like that, she said. He's there trying to save us. Save us, what for I said? They have missiles and they are pointed at us. Do they want to kill us MOM? I don't know but they don't like us very much. Why don't they like us MOM. Because they want what we have and they don't now how to earn it. Like my jobs and the money I earned for my new .22 ? Not like that she said, It's about freedom, justice, one man one vote, say what you think and read what you want. For not knowing anything, she had the answers.

Weeks went by and a car pulled up to the house, my Dad stepped out in his dress whites. White, black and gold. Ya, thats my dad. Mom went past me in a flash and out the door and grabbed hold of him and both of them almost went back down the steps. I have never been so proud of my folks.
__________________


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## LarryandSusanMacDonald (Apr 3, 2005)

Bubb 2 - GREAT POST! Touching. And reveals more than even most of us over forty ever really knew.


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## LarryandSusanMacDonald (Apr 3, 2005)

Does anyone suppose that if we had a concerted effort from Sailnet to our congressmen to support the bill to lift the restrictions on travel to Cuba it would do any good? Or is messing with politics against company policy?


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## WanderingStar (Nov 12, 2008)

The Cuban people don't need exposure to Americans to realize they want our way of life. Or what's wrong with theirs. They constantly risk their lives at sea to get here. Maybe pumping money into Cuba would bring about change. It hasn't worked with China, or Russia, or Venezuela. They all still opress their people and intimidate their neighbors. We send financial aid to keep North Koreans from starving, and they aren't getting any more civilised. The problem in all of these places isn't the public, it's the totalitarian governments. While we haven't managed to starve the Castro brothers out of business, I prefer not to prop them up.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

I think they might lose some of us if they started THAT lobbying effort. Lobby yourself. I obey the law but even if it changes would not spend ONE dollar of my money to support that brutal totalitarian dictatorship that makes Gitmo look like paradise. 
This is NOT an organization...it is a commercial enterprise and it does not speak for ME on anything. 
In my opinion those that would choose to go there have their MORAL compass set on "spin".


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

camaraderie said:


> In my opinion those that would choose to go there have their MORAL compass set on "spin".


i guess your moral compass must point due north. I mean never buying a Chinese Product and all! Where were those radio's that you sold made? It does not matter how the money gets there, products bought or tourist dollars. A little pot calling the kettle black, me thinks.


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## CapnTony (Apr 20, 2007)

It's stupid to think that in a day when we buy more products from "evil governments" than we produce at home, we should single out certain governments not to do business with. The days of 1960 style diplomancy died when as a country we decided to mortgage our future to the Chinese. Wake up and smell the change. The boogyman does not live in Cuba.


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## Mimsy (Mar 22, 2009)

I'd much rather have my moral compass set on "spin" than to be plagued with arrogance and a bad case of moral superiority.

Perhaps what we should do is enforce an embargo against any country that allows its citizens to visit or to trade with Cuba. Oh wait, that means we would have to place an embargo against the rest of the world. That will show those commie Canadians, German's, Brits, Aussies, etc.


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

bubb,

Thanks for that very touching story. It brings it home when you personize it.

Regards



bubb2 said:


> For the under 40 members, a post a made I made a while back. I too would like to sail to Cuba someday! The guy that cuts my hair is Cuban. The last time he visited (a few years ago) he was not allowed to leave for the US until he came up with cash. It extended his trip by 2 extra weeks.
> 
> A birthday to remember,
> 
> ...


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

Here's the WSJ article on it.

U.S to Lift Some Cuba Travel Curbs - WSJ.com


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

FWIW...I don't CHOOSE to buy anything from China or Venezuela or any number of other countries where human rights are trampled and slave labor is used. I don't have any CHOICE anymore on some things like TV's...but I was fine buying from Japan and Singapore and Korea when it was possible to do so. This is not about America first...it is about using my money to prop up tin horn dictatorships and pariah nations. 
Yeah we have to make some compromises given the lack of choice brought on by our misguided trade policies but I would never freely CHOOSE to spend my $$'s in Cuba OR China. There are a lot of other places I can go cruising without contributing to the oppression of other human beings. 
Nice rationalization folks...whatever works to allow yourselves to justify your own pleasure.


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## Mimsy (Mar 22, 2009)

> I don't have any CHOICE anymore on some things like TV's.


Sure you do, go without a TV. Last time I checked, a TV was hardly a necessity but was a luxury.

Look I don't have a problem with you choosing not to visit Cuba because you feel it violates your moral code. What I do have a probelm with is the arrogance of assuming that anyone who doesn't agree with you is an amoral degenerate who supports human rights abuses. Its that arrogance that has given rise to the stereotype of "Ugly American" that many other people have.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Good...I am Ugly then...but you ARE lacking in morality if you visit Cuba. 
Everyone supported boycotting South Africa during apartheid. This is NO DIFFERENT. It ain't an American thing...I could care less what the law says. It is RIGHT vs. WRONG. Rationalize it and demonize it any way you want to....they ain't trying to get here on styrofoam rafts cause Fidel and Raul are nice guys. Your $$ will keep them in power.


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

I thought the cold was won with dollars and not gun's. China is more capitalist than it ever has been because of trade. Maybe a few more dollars wouldn't hurt Cuba also!


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## WanderingStar (Nov 12, 2008)

"The boogeyman does not live in Cuba"
Not anymore. He drowned on a raft trying to get away from that workers paradise.
Your "change" smells like bs to me.


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

I don't care if castro tortures his people, steals their property, locks up anyone who objects to his practices and has become one of the richest men in the world by stealing everything he can; I just want to have fun! And I can do that on the cheap because it's such a bargain.
There's miscarriages of justice all across the world, so why should I care at all about my neighbors? I just want to have fun.


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

cort said:


> I don't care if castro tortures his people, steals their property, locks up anyone who objects to his practices and has become one of the richest men in the world by stealing everything he can; I just want to have fun! And I can do that on the cheap because it's such a bargain.
> There's miscarriages of justice all across the world, so why should I care at all about my neighbors? I just want to have fun.


Here here, frankly I am having a hard time believing all these middle age men being so in touch with there feelings, oh I mean moral compasses. Give me a break does everything of late on this site have to fall, almost always in the off topic area ? It's really getting old.


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

Umm, Free. I was being sarcastic


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

When in internet history has a thread about Cuba NOT become political? CD is an AFOC for starting it!


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

xort said:


> Umm, Free. I was being sarcastic


I wasn't this isn't off topic.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Guess someone should not have suggested sailnet lobbying the government for passage of the bill then eh?


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

No someone should just keep politics where they belong.


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## petmac (Feb 27, 2007)

camaraderie said:


> Good...I am Ugly then...but you ARE lacking in morality if you visit Cuba.
> Everyone supported boycotting South Africa during apartheid. This is NO DIFFERENT. It ain't an American thing...I could care less what the law says. It is RIGHT vs. WRONG. Rationalize it and demonize it any way you want to....they ain't trying to get here on styrofoam rafts cause Fidel and Raul are nice guys. Your $$ will keep them in power.


Cam, I have to disagree with you. Cuba is not South Africa. Apartheid was a much different situation. I am also not saying that Cuba is a democracy either. Before Castro and his revolution, Cuba was run by Batista. Batista was a dictator who overthrew a liberal government in 1933. No democracy under Batista. The US liked Batista because he respected US interests. Many of Batista's opponents were gunned down. Under Batista, Cuba became profitable for American business interests and organized crime. Following Castro's revolution, Castro came to the US to explain the revolution and that they weren't communists. The US snubbed him so he went to the Soviets for support and they were only too eager to back Cuba. Before the revolution 75 % of Cuba's best arable land was owned by foreign individuals or foreign companies (mostly US). Castro's Cuba expropriated foreign owned land and interests and this is what started the embargo. I don't think that the embargo has helped anybody, especially the Cuban people. Might be why many of the people choose to leave on rafts,etc.
These facts are what I have read over the years. I stand to be corrected. By the way, I enjoy most of your posts especially the ones related to sailing.


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

camaraderie said:


> Good...I am Ugly then...but you ARE lacking in morality if you visit Cuba.
> Everyone supported boycotting South Africa during apartheid. This is NO DIFFERENT. It ain't an American thing...I could care less what the law says. It is RIGHT vs. WRONG. Rationalize it and demonize it any way you want to....they ain't trying to get here on styrofoam rafts cause Fidel and Raul are nice guys. Your $$ will keep them in power.


I have not been back to south east Asia for over 35 years. I think I would like to go back to visit. But I only have two purple hearts and one bronze star. I guess I am not American enough!


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Petmac...first, please understand that I am not defending Batista or saying that the Cuban revolution was not justified. Castro came to power as a liberator promising DEMOCRATIC reform...once in power, his communist agenda came out, his rivals were killed and relations were established with the Soviets. The deal with the Soviets in February of 1960 predates any US Embargo. As did the executions and trials of HIS army officers in 1959 who were opposed to the rising communist influence within the government. 
There WERE trade restrictions imposed after this during Eisenhower, but it was not until the importation of nuclear missles and the Cuban missle crisis under Kennedy that the full embargo and "trading with the enemy" restrictions were imposed by Kennedy. Castro WAS a communist from day one...and many GOOD Cubans who joined the revolution in the hope of overthrowing Batista and establishing a true democracy were first duped, then ruined or imprisoned or killed when Castro imposed his dictatorship. So that is a bit different than the history you know. 
None of that really matters however when it comes to making a decision to cruise to Cuba now. What I react to is the present situation. If you don't like the apartheid analogy...perhaps PolPot in Thailand or KimJongIl in Korea would be more appropriate...or if we want to be more inclusive of non-communists, PapaDoc Duvalier, Khadaffi, Mugabe etc. etc. 
If any of these guys were running an island with pristine cruising grounds 90 miles from the US and people were saying "let's go sailing there", my message would be the same. It is immoral to spend our money which will be further used to continue to prop up a brutal dictatorship. 
I hope that one day soon we can all cruise Cuba, and that the Cuban people can be reunited in a democracy where they can choose their own path.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I am posting to lend my support to those who would like to end the strained relations with Cuba and reopen the door to trade and travel.

Cuba is Cuba. The U.S. is the U.S. We are different, that's all.

We have no business having a naval base at Guantanamo Bay. Every year we send the rent check and every year he does not cash it. This is crazy. They can't possibly hurt us.

BTW... I have a friend who is a well known cartoonist and he visited Cuba a few years back under the guise of being a journalist. (Laugh) He had a great time and was well received.


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## jrd22 (Nov 14, 2000)

Late coming to this thread, but I agree with Cam (which puts me in the minority here) about spending our dollars in Cuba. Based on Castro's actions and words, he is our enemy. Whether he has the capability to "hurt us" is somewhat irrelevant. Spending money as a tourist, or paying for a shipload of sugar cane supports their regime. The people will benefit due to the trickle down, but the majority will go to Castro as usual. My son and his wife are currently about 10nm off the coast of Cuba and I would love it if they could go into port there if they needed to so I have been thinking about this quite a bit. For the same reasons I would choose not to visit Venezuala, Chavez is our enemy and I don't support our enemies even if it means the hardship of altering my vacation plans  . If there was a way to guarantee that the people would benefit more than the regime from my "trade" I would change my mind, but Castro would make sure that didn't happen.


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## MoonSailer (Jun 1, 2007)

In a very real way this debate is not about Cuba at all. This debate is about freedom in the USA. Should US citizens be free to travel as we wish??? I can go to Vietnam or China or Russia or Iran why not Cuba??? Are we the land of the free and the home of the brave or are we cowards afraid of freedom? I understand Castro's fear of US citizens coming to Cuba but I don't understand Obama's fear. Trade and other interactions with Cuba would only weaken Castro. Iran Cuba


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## Mimsy (Mar 22, 2009)

The embargo has not worked. Open borders create open dialogue which is the only real hope we have of postive change.

What I take objection with is the hypocritical notion that somehow people who choose not to go to Cuba are the only ones with morals. Buy products from China? You are propping up a totalitarian regime who is wreaking havoc on its on people and what they are doing to Nepal is gut wrenching. Put diesel in that marine engine of yours? You are indirectly supporting Saudi Arabia and the Saad family, one of the most- if not the MOST oppressive regimes in the entire world. There is no way to keep your hands clean in the world in which we live in so its probably a good idea to not try to be the morality police.

Traveling to Cuba is not going to make difference one way or the other to the government. If it was going to make a difference it would have done so in the past 40 or so years. It will however, benefit the people. You want capitalism and democracy? Give the people a shot at earning living and not being dependent on the government for their livelihood. The only way to make that happen is to bring trade to them. 

By the way- a large portion of my family is Cuban. This is a product of my great grandfather living in Southern Florida Pre-Castro. His children went back and forth between Cuba on a regular basis. Not surprisingly, his kids fell in love with Cubans and married them. I am part Cuban.I have immediate family in Cuba that I may never get to see or get to know unless I give up my US citizenship. I love my country and renouncing my citizenship is not an option for me. That being said, it kills me that I have family who are suffering because Castro got a good case of meglomania and the US is acting like a spoiled child- I don't agree with you so I am taking my toys and going home!

Anyone wants my family recipe for black beans and plantains, I have it and its killer.


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## sck5 (Aug 20, 2007)

It is a defensible position to not want to spend dollars that might help Castro (as distinct from the Cuban people, who I imagine none of us has a beef with). What isnt consistent or defensible is to think that spending money in Cuba is one iota different from spending money on Chinese exports - The Chinese are no better than Castro - not a bit. The difference is that it is EASY to cut off Castro. Cutting off the Chinese might actually require some sacrifice on our part - and that is when people who defend the cuban embargo start making excuses as to how Chinese products arent REALLY the same as Cuban ones. I call ******** on that. It is exactly the same thing. They are both communist regimes. They both produce things we can buy. We buy from one but not the other? Rank hypocrisy. There is no principle at work if that is what we do.

For what its worth, I think the best way to bring down a Communist regime is to suck them into the capitalist orbit. You cant do that by calling them names and refusing to have anything to do with them. Especially when it doesnt work. (half a century and counting on this policy)


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

Sck5, I agree with you. people that want to so hard on Cuba seam to forget that is was not the Cubans who joined the fight in Korea.


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## AE28 (Jun 20, 2008)

Selkirk said:


> Cuba is Cuba. The U.S. is the U.S. We are different, that's all.


I take that as "not better, not worse, just different" and couldn't agree more!!!


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

FYI: An Update...

Obama to ease Cuba travel restrictions - CNN.com


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## MoonSailer (Jun 1, 2007)

But this only allows freedom to Cuban americans...American americans still have no freedom to travel to cuba. It is strange in the extreme that Cuban americans are the reason for the stupid embargo and travel restrictions but cuban americans are exempt from the restrictions that other americans must endure. NOT FAIR!!!


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## noreault (May 14, 2008)

The ban on Americans visiting family in Cuban is by executive order hence Obama can change it. To open up more general trade requires Congress to act. Still unfair, just that is the set of stupid rules implemented by Congress.


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## WouldaShoulda (Oct 7, 2008)

Mimsy said:


> There is no way to keep your hands clean in the world in which we live in so its probably a good idea to not try to be the morality police.


That's what my mother always told me...

"The other kids are doing it, so it must be OK!!" :laugher


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## ottos (Aug 12, 2008)

Could someone re-categorize this thread. I think it qualifies as political at this point. This discussion is making my blood boil and I don't come to SailNet for that.

Thanks. :hothead


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## knothead (Apr 9, 2003)

ottos said:


> Could someone re-categorize this thread. I think it qualifies as political at this point. This discussion is making my blood boil and I don't come to SailNet for that.
> 
> Thanks. :hothead


What, you don't have the self discipline to avoid it?


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## ottos (Aug 12, 2008)

Nope. That's why I select "New Posts - no politics/no off topic"


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## somers12 (Nov 8, 2007)

Politics aside, I truly hope that Cuba is opened up to you guys.You'll love it. The people are great, most speak English, and the food, sand and water is fabulous. I'm Canadian and have been there four times. I didn't sail while I was there, I just went to escape the Cold winters; 4-star, all inclusive of course. There's no shortage of booze. The off tourist areas are kind of depressing though, because poverty is rampant. More even than the off tourist areas in Mexico, where I've been three times. 

Steve


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## cnc33voodoo (May 15, 2008)

somers12 said:


> Politics aside, I truly hope that Cuba is opened up to you guys.You'll love it. The people are great, most speak English, and the food, sand and water is fabulous. I'm Canadian and have been there four times. I didn't sail while I was there, I just went to escape the Cold winters; 4-star, all inclusive of course. There's no shortage of booze. The off tourist areas are kind of depressing though, because poverty is rampant. More even than the off tourist areas in Mexico, where I've been three times.
> 
> Steve


I agree with everything you said except the food.
I have been to cuba 3 times at 3 different resorts and the food was gross.Even outside the resorts the food was nasty.


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## ottos (Aug 12, 2008)

See - I can't help myself.  

I am first generation American. Both my parents were born in Havana. Two of my uncles (and other relatives) were political prisoners there. One died there in prison. My cousins were sent to work camps. That said, I no longer have any known relatives there, so I have no reason to go. 

So when Fidel says he hopes that Obama succeeds, pardon me if I take that as a big flashing red warning light. When Obama then opens up barriers to Cuba and lifts trade restrictions, and how much can be given to relatives there, who do you think is going benefit the most? It won't be the relatives.

Castro has been shadowboxing with the US for 50 years, and will take good advantage when given the opportunity, especially when our president is a neophyte. During the Kennedy administration, he helped the Russians point nuclear missiles at us. During the Carter administration, he emptied his prisons and sent us murderers and rapists along with the people just seeking freedom. What is he going to do this time? 

He is the sworn enemy of the United States, have no doubts about that. He will do whatever he can to damage the USA. :hammer

Will tourism help the cause of democracy there? I doubt it, but admittedly am no expert. Let our allies visit all they like, but I think that it would do the US more harm than good.


.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

ottos said:


> See - I can't help myself.
> 
> I am first generation American. Both my parents were born in Havana. Two of my uncles (and other relatives) were political prisoners there. One died there in prison. My cousins were sent to work camps. That said, I no longer have any known relatives there, so I have no reason to go.
> 
> ...


Everytime i you mention Cuba, it seems the threads turn political. I guess it cannot be helped.

The comments you just mentioned ar every similar to what I constantly heard in S Florida. Curious if that is where you are from too. No matter, I agree with you and what you have said. I find that almost all of the people that talk about visiting Cuba have spent little time around the Cuban's that have escaped that regime. I went to S Florida ignorant of the realities. Some time with Cuban's has wholeheartedly changed my mind. CardiacPaul and others share this view too.

WIthout people like you commenting on what you have witnessed, they reality is that it will not be known. Like I said, it changed my mind.

- CD


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## sck5 (Aug 20, 2007)

There is a misunderstanding here. I favor opening up travel to Cuba. That is NOT because I like Castro or because I want to be soft on Communism. It is because I think the best way to undermine the communist regime is to start showing the people the benefits of capitalism. Give them an independent ability to make a living without the government controlling it and the government will start losing control.

You might agree or disagree with me, but what we are arguing about isnt whether communism is OK - It is over what is the best way to get rid of it. Fifty years and counting on a failed policy is at least some indication that it is not going to work. Again, you may disagree but I aint no Castro lover.

By the way, I got Nigel Calder's cruising guide in hope that we will be allowed to continue on to Cuba after we go through the Bahamas next year - A really good guide - needs some updating but a good guide.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

And the rest of the world has been trading with Cuba for some time now.
That sure has worked out well...Cuba is so much more open and respectful of human rights since that happened. They even had elections! You could actually vote for Fidel!! WOW...let's jump on that bandwagon and make sure there is NO incentive to change anything.


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## zaliasvejas (Jul 18, 2007)

well, doing what we are doing doesn't seem to work, either. 
What do you think is the solution in Cuba? 
Can there be a solution? Greed for power is a universal vice it seems.... 

By the way, are the restriction for travel are from the US side?


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## ottos (Aug 12, 2008)

Cruisingdad said:


> The comments you just mentioned ar every similar to what I constantly heard in S Florida. Curious if that is where you are from too. - CD


Never lived in Florida...visited there frequently. Most of my family is there now. My parents came here in the 40's. I was born in NYC and reared on the Jersey Shore.



sck5 said:


> Give them an independent ability to make a living without the government controlling it and the government will start losing control.


This is where we disagree. Nothing in Cuba is done independently. It may appear so, but Castro is nothing if not a totalitarian dictator and master manipulator. He and his regime will benefit first and more than the people.

.


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## Joesaila (May 19, 2007)

*When it happens, it may be because of compatability*

The more this gov't becomes socialistic, the more like Cuba it is.

Mao said, 'We will conquer you from within'. As one who strives to be a nuetral observer, I think that has occurred.


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## sck5 (Aug 20, 2007)

joe saila ...........if you think the USA is "like Cuba" or even heading that way.

when you start calling everyone from Castro to middle of the road Democrats a "socialist" the word starts to lose any useful meaning.

But thats fine with me. It used to be that the word "socialist" was associated pretty much with communist regimes. Nowadays many republicans fling it around as a sort of namecalling playground taunt directed at everyone and everything to the left of wherever they are. As it happens, most people LIKE what the Dems are doing and if that is what socialism is then they are OK with it. Most Americans are in fact to the left of the republican party and way to the left of the right wing of the republican party. The more you use the word to describe today's majority party the less pejorative it becomes (except of course to right wing nut jobs) 

Any of you who doubt where the majority of americans are on the spectrum, here is a link - the repubs are down to under 30%!

Google Image Result for http://people-press.org/reports/images/436-72.gif


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## ottos (Aug 12, 2008)

sck5 said:


> when you start calling everyone from Castro to middle of the road Democrats a "socialist" the word starts to lose any useful meaning.
> 
> But thats fine with me. It used to be that the word "socialist" was associated pretty much with communist regimes. Nowadays many republicans fling it around as a sort of namecalling playground taunt directed at everyone and everything to the left of wherever they are.


Socialism has a specific meaning. According to Wikipedia: "Socialism refers to a broad set of economic theories of social organization advocating *public or state ownership and administration of the means of production* and distribution of goods, and a society characterized by equality for all individuals, with a fair or egalitarian method of compensation." Socialism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Without a doubt, this country has taken a socialist turn in the last several months. The government bought into and now owns 80% of AIG, has tried to control the compensation of AIG executives, and has effectively fired the CEO of GM, to name three just off the top of my head.

In my opinion the only justifiable reason for any government intervention is to maintain a viable and fair market. Anything beyond that is socialism...and it is a damned blurry line between the two.

.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

right on Paul...and they just LOVE cruisers there! 
*
*​ Dream of the tropics turns into a two-week nightmare​ *By Ray Oliver*​ As a lad growing up in Newcastle, England, I read the novels of Ernest Hemingway and imagined traveling the world, with Cuba being one of my dream destinations. After sailing the Atlantic in 2000, and landing in Barbados, I knew that one day I would have to travel north to see Havana for myself. This is the story of that misadventure.​ My boat _Cymar_, an 11-meter Amel Kirk I bought 10 years previously in Port Carmargue, Southern France, carried me across the Atlantic. I cruised the Med with my wife, until she died six years ago. Since then, I have sailed alone most of the time. A 66-year-old yacht master, I have worked for Sunsail in the Solent and Canaries during the summer months, returning to _Cymar _to winter in the Caribbean.​ 
 
 









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 *Cymar on the hard, North Coast of Cuba.*

 
 
 
 After a bout with cancer in summer 2001 and a subsequent successful recuperation, I was fit to sail my lovely boat again. Cuba here I come!​ I sailed through St. Martin, the British and American Virgin Islands, Puerto Rico and the Dominican Republic. One of my favourite places in the Caribbean is Luperon, near Puerto Plata. I spent some time there and so didn't make it to Cuba that year. Luperon was a safe, cheap place to leave the boat, so I returned to England to build up the sailing kitty.​ I set sail for Cuba on January 8, 2004. ....more


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Cuba is one of my favorite countries. Havana has the most beautiful people, everyone always smiling and dancing, sharing stories and playing dominios while enjoying a bottle of havana club rum ( which the french own) . Yes they dont have much, but they are happy. There is no hungry homeless person on the sidewalk begging for money, they manage. I can promise that the "Aloha" in them will be no more. When we do lift the travel band, it will be the end of true cubano spice. Im pleased to have experianced it before the **** it the fan. Its going to get ugly in there. i promise. *


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## kaluvic (Jan 14, 2009)

We are planning on visiting this summer.
We'll be traveling via air from Europe.
I'm an American and am wondering if/how I'll get into trouble?


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## AE28 (Jun 20, 2008)

zaliasvejas said:


> well, doing what we are doing doesn't seem to work, either.
> What do you think is the solution in Cuba?
> Can there be a solution? Greed for power is a universal vice it seems....
> 
> By the way, are the restriction for travel are from the US side?


I think the solution is to leave it alone and let the Cubans fix it themselves, presuming it needs "fixing".


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## NCountry (May 25, 2006)

Boy, there are only a few things one can really get out of this thread.
1. Cuba may be a nice place to visit but no one wants to live there!
2. It's no wonder America is in the situation it is. Americans can't even get along with each other most of the time.
3. The Dems finally have their wish. They have taken over. (be careful what you wish for, you may actually get it) It will be interesting to see where we're at in 4 years.
Now, my only comment. Unemployment is on the rise and I'm taking a stand. I don't care if I get a cuban, malaysian or who ever calling me wanting me to buy something or give me customer service. I tell them I don't deal with service people outside the United States and I hang up. If they want to do business in the US they should at least hire a few Americans. Same goes for Cuba! My vacation dollars this year will stay in the US! (OK, delete me now for being off topic) lol.........


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## kaluvic (Jan 14, 2009)

I used to enjoy spending some of my holiday $ in the US.
Unfortunately, I don’t get that warm fuzzy US reception anymore.
The last two trips I made my entire family was "randomly selected" for the special security screening on EVERY ONE OF THE FLIGHTS we took.

I've lived in the Middle East for almost 20 years and figure that may have something to do with it.

I like to visit places that are a bit more welcoming.

The "Cubans" have expressed a real desire to have us visit.


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

Cuba is all over the news again. Probably time to add to this thread.

How artificial insemination conceived a new era in US-Cuba relations | World news | The Guardian

The political demography of U.S.-Cuba relations - The Washington Post

Regards,
Brad


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