# Going to convert my Snipe sailing dinghy into a trimaran- Need advice f



## Curtisfromcarlsbad (Jun 18, 2011)

I want to be able to singlehand without fear of capsize and go out of the bay into the ocean but stay swimming distance to the coast. The Snipe capsizes easily and singlehanded would be a major chore to right. Also I can increase my load by 450 pounds and carry more than two people aboard if I do this. I will use two "Hydrobike" plastic pontoons 10 feet long, 10 inches wide and 30lbs. apiece. I want to use two "akas", 1 1/2 inch steel conduit about 16 guage (feels extremely strong: I was unable to bend it with all my might at Home Depot) by 12 feet. Home Depot does not carry this length only 10 foot so this week I will try to obtain it elsewhere. The Snipe is 15'6" long, 5' beam and 400 lbs give or take. Is 12 foot the ideal width of my new beam or should I go wider or narrower and why ? Thanks.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Just a thought... Why not plan on learning how to handle it rather then prevent it? Outriggers or Amas will go under when the boat heels in a gust. and they will actually cause the boat to not only broach but may flip stern to bow at the same time. 
Allot of the fun people seem to have when racing and sailing dinghies is the flipping, broaching and righting the craft. 





I've seen mast floats and lots of floatation in small boats for sailing fun. I don't think trying to prevent them from going over is going to work.

Someday I'll report on the fun, if I ever get out there with my 8ft walker bay dink and sailing rig.


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## Curtisfromcarlsbad (Jun 18, 2011)

*reply to denise030*

Thanks Denise. One of the other sailnet members just capsized his Snipe while sailing solo - see my thread "Single handing a Snipe" page 3 to read his story. His mast broke. That is why I want to do this. And to carry my wife and two kids. It is a real tippy boat. I am willing to forfeit some speed due to the increased weight and drag from the amas. I have no intention of racing and want to go into the ocean where the swells are larger. I should be able to sit farther aft to prevent pitchpoling and I will add some reef points to the sail. My main focus is on convenience and safety before perfomance.


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

Sell the Snipe.
Start looking at smaller keel boats like a Catalina 22', Rhodes 19' etc. Most keel boats are pretty hard to capsize and more appropriate for day sailing with the family. 
Then there are beach catamarans and trimarans - but they all can be tipped over.


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## Curtisfromcarlsbad (Jun 18, 2011)

I can only fit a boat that on it's trailer does not exceed 5' ,11.5". The Snipe was one of only boats that can fit this bill.The walkway to my back patio is 6' only the last 1 foot of a 30' span.I can hand push the Snipe on it's trailer to the back and out of our sight and without taking up a premium driveway space. The walkway is wedge shaped and starts at 7' plus then tapers down to 6'. Blame the original developers of this tract? Lol! If they would have gone 6' for the whole span I would be relegated to a Hobie Adventure Island. Not that they are so bad but they don't point as well due to lack of boom. I have sailed the Snipe a few times and really like it. It trailers like a dream, so light I can't even feel it. I moved down from a brand new Macgregor 26m to this 30 year old Snipe. I can rig the Snipe solo at the launch ramp in 20 minutes compared to the 2 hours for the Mac. De rig time is 15 minutes. Adding the pontoons will add about 6-7 minutes if you count the time to store the pontoons on the top of the hull of the Snipe and tie the two akas to the mast . The boat will still be under 6' wide at the outer edge of the tires, so I can make it disappear into the far reaches of the back of my house. I'm only going to sail a couple of times a month. The Snipe is just about the perfect boat for me. I don't have any more money for a different boat and have already tried bigger. Rig time and physical exertion required to rig are extremely important to me as is the 6' width requirement. I don't want to pay storage fees or lose a driveway space. I am basically 90 percent happy with my Snipe as it stands now. I just want to add the pontoons to stabilize it more and fly the jib when solo. I work 100 hours a week so rig time/energy is paramount. Also the time and difficulty of connecting the trailer to the hitch is important. I can do the Snipe by hand and even parallel park then detach the trailer and hand push it in reverse up my driveway to the walkway. I would like advice more related to the actual pontoon width rather than getting talked out of my plan. I do appreciate your intentions though so please don't be offended.


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## Boatsmith (May 3, 2009)

> Sell the Snipe.
> Start looking at smaller keel boats like a Catalina 22', Rhodes 19' etc. Most keel boats are pretty hard to capsize and more appropriate for day sailing with the family.


 You are just going to mess up a Snipe spend money and time and end up with at best a crummy boat. JMO do what you want


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

No offense taken. 
While I agree with BoatSmith, if you must pursue this option I'd check out the design of the Telstar 28' trimaran to use as a 'model' for your ama dimensions: TELSTAR 28 sailboat on sailboatdata.com


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## jcalvinmarks (Mar 17, 2010)

I'm not an engineer or anything, but the engineering sounds all wrong here. 16ga steel conduit? Just because you can't bend it with your hands doesn't mean that a 10 ft plastic float being dragged through the water at 4 or 5 knots won't snap it like a twig. And how is this going to be fastened to the boat? Bolts? Screws? Lashings? If you've got 12 foot of conduit across a 5ft beam, that leaves 3.5 ft hanging outboard. I think that sort of leverage is going to be very tough to overcome.

If I were going to make a guess at how all this turns out, I'd say the first time you get a good heel going and dip one of the pontoons in the water, it's going to snap the tubing, the boat is going to broach to, and it's going to capsize, only now it's going to have the windward pontoon still fastened to it, adding another complication to the knockdown situation. As others have said, knockdowns and capsizes are a part of dinghy sailing, and you really ought to be able to deal with that as the boat is designed. (Incidentally, that's the main reason I cashed in my O'Day DSII for a keelboat.)

But hey, as they say, don't believe anybody who tells you something can't be done unless they can show you the broken pieces of their version of it. I have plenty of broken pieces to show, but not of this concept.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

Curtis the nice thing and frustrating thing about on-line conversations is that often we don't know much about the people we are talking to.

You for example may be an engineer with a full workshop with a backyard full of parts and all kinds of engineer friends that will be happy to help you.
It is all about the capabilities of the people involved. How much money, time, energy, equipment and expertise they have. A lack in one place can be overcome with an excess someplace else.

You specifically said you don't want to be talked out of this project so I will respect your wishes.
What you have heard so far is that this idea is not trivial to accomplish and probably not cheap either.
Make sure you take pictures we are looking forward to them.
Good Luck.

You asked for specific help. 
I would want confirmation of your idea that you would increase the load carrying capability of the central boat as much as you say. The ama's are typically not in the water at the same time. Even the one that is in the water seems to be just bouncing on the waves. This is an engineering question a tri engineer would know and maybe you could find out by lurking on a tri engineering site. Most tri's go out of there way to reduce weight in the ama's so it is very possible that in tri engineering ana load carrying is not added to the boats load carrying.
I don't know this to be a fact but from your point of view it would significantly change the desirability of the project even if I'm only partly right.


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

Consider using two laser hulls and a couple of shaped logs to tie is all together. Cut a Farr 40 carbon rig in half, and then you'll never capsize, ever. I think you'd have quite a boat. Let us know your circumnavigation plans. Maybe you can join me on my laser. We'll be a flotilla of sorts. That's kind of like a tortilla, but with boats.


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## Mormandeus (Jun 25, 2011)

Quite a concept you are entertaining. Aside from the attachment of the amas which would need to be afixed firmly yet be reasonably easy to remove for transport you have to consider the appropriate position fore and aft of the amas as well. This would be a critical criteria - too far forward might cause a tendency to dig in and pitch pole the boat- to far aft may cause excessive weatherhelm and rounding up.

I will assume that since you are asking for assistance that you yourself are not an engineering sort - niether am I unless aircraft engineer qualifies - so you might consider investing some time/money into someone who has some expertise in the field.

If you do try the mod please test it thouroughly before taking the family out for safety sake. Hope this is some help.

Good luck and fair winds


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## tomandchris (Nov 11, 2009)

Why would you take a great one design boat and make it an abortion???? 
Sell the good boat and buy a different good boat for your needs. 
What you are intending will most likely 1}not work, or 2}kill you in your desired intent. Plus, it will be worthless when you decide that you really need a differnet boat.


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## Curtisfromcarlsbad (Jun 18, 2011)

Excellent responses all ! I tried to bend the conduit at Home Depot with my legs and arms. It won't budge or bend more than maybe 1/8 ". I will initially strap the akas on the deck to around the bottom of the hull with cargo straps and go out in Mission Bay on an easy day in shallow water. The straps are flat and won't create too much drag just for the test. I should be able to get a sense of fore to aft placement this way before I go drilling holes in the deck and gunwales. I eventually want to have bolts sticking up to recieve the akas at the launch ramp or if a crowded day I can walk the boat over to the shallow sandy beach that is adjacent to the ramp. Then I can install the akas there to free up the ramp. The water is shallow so it can't capsize from the top heavy load of the pontoons strapped on the deck for trailering. The pontoons (amas) will be more engaged in the water than in the air at any given time due to their heigth (depth). They are able to float about 450-500 lbs. combined. I plan to have passengers on the windward side on a strong netting I will rig as a trampoline. All passengers will have lifejackets on at all times. I always sail that way anyway. I have been using them on the hydrobike and as a makeshift paddleboard with only a piece of plywood reinforced with some 2x2's fore to aft so I have a good idea as to what weight they can handle. If my project in the bay fails in shallow water and I don't break my mast I won't have drilled any holes or anything. The two 12 foot conduits should only run me about $30 so who cares if I ditch the idea later on - no big loss. I can just drive home with my tail between my legs and watch some TV. At that point I will concede and use the Snipe as a monohull only and just put a mast float up to try to reduce turtling. I can easily rig the hydrobike pontoons as a towable platform to tow people behind me from the Snipe. Mormandeus's ideas of fore to aft placement of the rig seem important for me to figure out. I am only a taxi cab owner and driver. My gut feeling is that this will work. I know it will be slower than a purpose built trimaran due to the wider center hull. That is OK with me. I really appreciate all the input from everyone. I once bought a tandem sit on top kayak having never paddled one before and proceded to paddle it 26 miles from Mission Bay, San Diego to Tijuana, Mexico ! It took me 16 hours-no food, no water.They said in the shop that sold it to me that it wasn't a good idea. Now they talk about my trip to new buyers. I like to take chances. That's why I volunteered for submarines in the Navy and now drive a taxi and surf in Great White shark waters !


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## MikeWhy (Apr 22, 2011)

Curtis, before you buy your conduit, slide one a few feet past its support and stand near the end. Bounce gently a few times and see what happens. I think you'll find that it bends easily.

Bolting it to the gunwale and deck is a really bad idea. If you're going to do it, run the straps around the bottom of the hull to take the strain. Use the bolts to align the aka fore/aft and side to side.

It sounds like a bad joke to catch our reaction to you taking the wife and kids offshore in that contraption. I won't wish you good luck. It's a bad idea all the way through.


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## Curtisfromcarlsbad (Jun 18, 2011)

MikeWhy : I will do the test on the conduit as you suggest. I thank you and all others for the input. This is serious. I am not doing it as a ploy to rile everyone up. I am a very spontaneous guy. I won't take my family out of the bay on it, or far from land (Beyond easy swimming distance say 200 feet or so). I have looked at the way most akas are attached to the pontoons on other craft and it is usually to the gunwales so I don't see what the reason is I couldn't do the same. Please tell me why it would be so dangerous to attach to the deck or gunwales.If I use large 2" washers on both sides of the fiberglass it should spread the load just fine. Remember also the Snipe sails fastest when it is flat and planing, not heeled like a normal monohull. The Snipe crews hike way out with their backs only inches from the water to keep this effect. But at 205 lbs. I won't be able to do this solo unless I spill wind which will be less effective anyway. So either way when solo without the pontoons or solo with there will always be a trade off. Either the amas dragging a bit in the water slowing me down or me spilling wind without the amas and not having perfect sail trim. I had a 26' long,12" beam outrigger paddling canoe (dual outriggers). I could paddle it with a dual bladed kayak paddle at over 10mph easily. The attachment point for the akas (crossbeams) was to a piece of wood that ran the 12" from port to stbd. This piece of wood was glassed to the thin fiberglass deck. The wood was only about one inch square and it held out just fine. Maybe I could have a board about 1" thick and 3" wide and use 3 attachment locations. The bolts are about 3/8" and already have knobs attached to make quick removal by hand. I don't think it would be necessary to go all the way around the hull with straps, why would you think this is necessary? It would create drag. I was just going to do that at first until I got the fore to aft positioning of the setup correct. If you look at the Hobie Adventure Island, The crossbeams are on hinges and aren't very thick. Proportionately the crossbeams I will use are very good if you account for my hull weight and length and beam. JcalvinMarks gave some good specifics however the poles are much stronger than he thinks. I weigh 205 and am a strong weightlifter and could not bend them significantly with even my legs.They do sell the conduits in three thicker sizes up from where I am thinking but why add the weight. If I perform your test and it passes then we should be good.Why would the bolts explode through my deck the first time I heeled if most of the other small trimarans use a similar method of attachment? The deck is not made out of 1/16" wine glass.I don't see why I would need to put my whole 205 lbs. near the end and bounce up and down.The forces of the drag on the pontoon even if briefly submerged 20 % in the front at speed wouldn't create that much force would it ? Please explain further as to why the attachment idea would not work (specifically) and I thank you.


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## MikeWhy (Apr 22, 2011)

Curtis, I don't want to take the fun and spontaneity out of your project. It really does sound like fun. I probably over reacted to the thought of you going offshore with your family.

Even if the conduits are undersized for the load, what's the worst that can happen? They'll just bend a bit and be out of the water at worst. You'll know to put a stronger brace on the next one.

The concern with the attachment is the upward pull on the bolts. The leeward ama has up to 200 lbs of buoyancy on a lever arm. I don't know your boat or its construction. If it looks like it will support your body weight swinging on the end, upside down, maybe it'll be alright.


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## Curtisfromcarlsbad (Jun 18, 2011)

Ok, wow this might be the dealkiller for the project because I am unsure as to to strength of the constuction of the hydrobike pontoon where the bolts currently come out. These bolts are affixed into the pontoons one fore and one aft sticking up on each pontoon.This is where the outer part of the crossbar would attach to. I'm glad we are hashing this thing out to fruition of not. I now will need to contact the inventor of the Hydrobike, Ray Burish. I have spoken to him on the phone several times before. He will be able to tell me if they can withstand that much pull. If not I don't want to spend more money on other pontoons, I will abort the project and try a mast float and convert the pontoons into a towable raft. I'll see what he tells me over the next few days. Thanks for the help . Your reaction to my taking the family offshore was the correct response. I didn't set up the scenario 100 %. I wouldn't want to risk them at all, only me. I will find out from Ray the answer on the strength of those bolt attachments. I have driven the Hydrobike through large waves 5-6 foot straight out into the ocean hitting the pontoons straight on and pitching the Hydrobike to a 50 degree up angle. One other question- If I did try to tow 250 pounds of weight ( 2 people) on the pontoons while sailing the Snipe would that work? It seems the Snipe has plenty of torque and the pontoons track wonderfully with little effort to pull them loaded


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## MikeWhy (Apr 22, 2011)

Curtis, the pontoon bolts likely aren't a big issue. The concern was with the attachment to the hull or deck. The action of the pontoon is to pull upward on the deck attachment. The pontoon is on a lever, giving it mechanical advantage. Where its submerged buoyancy is 200 lbs, the attachments might see 400 lbs or more, depending. 

It may well be that your deck can sustain 400 lbs of upward pull. Look at it critically with your weight lifter's eye, and ask yourself whether you can dead lift that bolt, fender washer and all, right out of the deck. If so, find some way to reinforce it. Look also at the deck's attachment to the hull.

Also, your kayak's outrigger might not do so well with a full set of sails up.


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## Curtisfromcarlsbad (Jun 18, 2011)

Thanks


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## Boasun (Feb 10, 2007)

Yipes!! Turning a Snipe into a Tri, Is like putting training wheels on a Harley... Gesh!!


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## Curtisfromcarlsbad (Jun 18, 2011)

I think I might still be crazy enough to try ! The deck to hull connection is an area of concern to me now that MikeWhy has alerted me to this. I felt it from inside the hatches and it seems strong. The sidestays put a lot of upward pull on this connection when the Snipe is heeled so I think it would be pretty strong. I don't care if the boat gets ruined or unsellable if my project fails. I can work all the overtime I want to makeup for the loss. I'll try with cargo straps around the hull first for a few times if I really like the way it sails. I could care less about the aesthetics of turning a purebred monohull one design class into a Frankenstein bastard son as long as it sails fairly fast, tacks well and resists capsizing. I don't care at all what it looks like to other sailors. I'm not a leaner purist. I don't have any affiliations with either leaner or multihull political parties. If it works safely for me and makes the Snipe 90 percent less tippy it will be good. If it pitchpoles all the time I should be able to see that on my trial runs before I drill holes. This is almost like a suicidal person and you guys are trying to prevent him from doing himself in. You have been convincing but I still gotta try this one or I'll never know. It might work really good. The more I look at it and study it the better it keeps looking. I gotta try. I am not a monohull purist. I like monohulls but I equally like multihulls. I'm an out of the box SOB. Soon I will try my evil Dr. Jeckyl experiment. If I don't post up within a few days after the sail it means I drowned. If I live and it fails I will report without shame my failure here on this board. If it works really well I will probably gloat. I thank all for the advice and will post up the day of the bastardized attempted sail.


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## MikeWhy (Apr 22, 2011)

Way to go, Curtis.


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## Curtisfromcarlsbad (Jun 18, 2011)

Thanks!


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## Curtisfromcarlsbad (Jun 18, 2011)

*Going for broke tommorow morning*

Gonna do it -Mission Bay, San Diego by noon tomorrow. If I don't post up within a week (either acknowledging my defeat or gloating) look on the internet for "Sailor drowns in Mission Bay last Sunday". Wish me luck ! :laugher


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## MikeWhy (Apr 22, 2011)

Video, or it didn't happen.


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## Curtisfromcarlsbad (Jun 18, 2011)

I'll snap some photos of the assembled rig in the water!


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

Break a leg! as they say in show bizness.


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## captflood (Jan 1, 2011)

GREETINGS EARTHLINGS ; for extra bouyance fill all available space with pop bottles the big one goes throiugh the inspectioon hatches and fill all the viods each one is an indipendent cell off almost indistructable air Go Safe


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## Curtisfromcarlsbad (Jun 18, 2011)

I'll be swimming distance from shore-Gonna take Monday off work. Been working too much anyway. Want to get an earlier start.Today ended up being a terrific family day! Here are some pics of the pontoon assembly that will fit onto the top of the Snipe. It will bring the beam to 10'3". More on the water pics after tomorrow. The Snipe will fit underneath this "Thing".Where you see the yellow rubber cushions that are zip tied to the akas represents the width of the Snipe. If I need more forward rise on the akas I can add another layer of 1/2 " rubber just on the forward aka. So you can get an idea of how much more beam I am gaining. Any input is still graciously accepted ! Thanks guys !


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## msmith10 (Feb 28, 2009)

I just want to reference a statement in one of your early posts. You stated that you moved down from a MacGregor 26 to a Snipe. You might have gotten a smaller boat, but that is certainly not a move down-- not until you ruin your Snipe with the proposed changes.
Please Youtube your experiment so the skeptics among us can either have a good chuckle or eat crow.


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## Curtisfromcarlsbad (Jun 18, 2011)

If I have enough time to figure out how to do that I will definitely get pictures. I drive a taxi 90 hours a week.


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## Curtisfromcarlsbad (Jun 18, 2011)

I also added some pictures of the Snipe and the last two pics represent my proposed attachment points on the deck/gunwales.The last pic might put the pontoons too far forward. I also need to be forward or aft of the daggerboard for beaching and ease of sliding back onto trailer without removing assembly in water or at waters edge. Please look at page 3 of this thread to see pictures of the pontoon assembly. I just added them.


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## Curtisfromcarlsbad (Jun 18, 2011)

*Would you like the crow deep fried or grilled ?*

The first trial run at Mission Bay San Diego today was a great success ! I was able to point close to the wind and achieve speeds of 4.5 MPH (GPS from a vehicle -Allow for vertical error) and tacking downwind/broad and beam reach at 5.9 MPH ! Very little drag on pontoons ( only one side at a time,sometimes both pontoons out of water at the same time depending on my body positioning). Drag on each side rarely exceeded about 1/12 of the volume of the pontoon- just a snippet! The akas seemed strong enough even during jibes. They will work for the bay and light near shore ocean sailing. I will upgrade to thicker aluminum ones at some point as I take on windier conditions and deploy the jib- today I didn't and still tacked well and got impressive speeds ! Wind speed in the bay today was 4-11 mph. Seemed to be around 6 mph most of the time. Check out the pics !:laugher


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## Curtisfromcarlsbad (Jun 18, 2011)

More pics. I can still trailer at 6' wide with this arrangement. Once I put in the bolts through the gunwales it will only take about 5-6 extra minutes to rig/derig ,stow/unstow the pontoon assembly. I think it will be worth it. The boat was much more fun to sail this way and I even stood up in various areas in the center hull while sailing without any threat of capsize. I don't want the challenge of trying to right the boat if it capsizes- I'm 42 now. I want to stay relatively dry and still get good speed. The boat never heeled more than about 5-7 degrees today so I could change sides at my leisure without having to time it with the turn. I even took and dispatched taxi phone calls during the sail. I will have to get new venturi valves put in the bottom of the Snipe as these leak. Or I may cancel them out entirely. This was really my only problem today about 1-2 inches of water in the floor all day. I will wait to try the jib after another couple of trial runs and practice my docking etc....... Here are some more pics of the trailering package.


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## Curtisfromcarlsbad (Jun 18, 2011)

more pics.


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

Congrats Curtis. Looks like your trial run was a success in low winds. Glad to hear it.
I still submit that it will be harder to right on overturned (even homemade trimaran) once you do turn it over. 
You have got to follow your dreams.
Have fun with it.


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## msmith10 (Feb 28, 2009)

My salute to you, Carl. I'll nibble a little on some BBQd crow wings for now. I think you'll have some issues arise as the wind/waves pick up, but you're doing OK. It doesn't even look as funky as I imagined it would. Keep us posted as the design evolves.


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## Curtisfromcarlsbad (Jun 18, 2011)

I agree with both of you. I will have to face these issues as I move forward. I will still have to be ready to quickly spill wind. I will be watching the forward part of the leeward ama in higher winds/waves. I will have to eventually put on thicker ,stronger akas. These are pretty strong and should work in most bay conditions. The boat really had a tame yet very high performance feel. I really liked it with the amas. I will also have an adjustable rise on the forward aka to raise when the waves are higher. It was setup nicely yesterday for the conditions. If the rig were to break suddenly I have mentally rehearsed a plan. I would try to bungee the affected pontoon or aka and limp the boat to shore. It really did appear to be very solid though. I have a wetsuit onboard easy to grab even if turtled and always am wearing a lifejacket. I could don it while in the water and that would buy me some time to try to lash the floating broken parts to the main hull . The main hull could sink but has two side watertight bulkheads that could save it depending on the break. the pontoons themslves are very durable and much thicker than the plastic on a sit on top kayak. They can float about 250lbs apiece. Thanks for the help and I will continue to provide more pics as I continue sailing this thing. It was superb.


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## MikeWhy (Apr 22, 2011)

:laugher That really is most excellent.  And she looks good, too.

Now for a tiller extension to make use of all that hiking room, and go spank some skiffs.


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## Curtisfromcarlsbad (Jun 18, 2011)

Yeah Mike it has a nice metal extension ,I used it a couple of times when laying down against the green side decks. More trial and error runs to be made before I drill.


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