# PHRF questions



## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

When you apply for a PHRF rating do you have to choose spin or non spin fleet or can you do some races as non spin and others using it?

I'd like to do some races, especially some of the longer distance ones here on the bay and also some club races. Downwind is not a wing-keeled C36's fastest point of sail especially in light air so a long race could be torturous unless we could use our asym. For the club races, I'd expect to be short handed, probably with pick up crew and would not want to use the chute.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

The answer is here, Para 2, Section 4:

D:\phrf\Genbusn\homepage\html\memshp98.htm

_Section 4. SAILS. You must choose either no spinnaker, symmetric, asymmetric, or both types of spinnakers. Provide the overlap of your largest jib or genoa. Report any mainsails with girth dimensions exceeding (i.e. oversize roach) the default values in our Standard Sail and Equipment Specifications on a separate page. If using symmetric spinnakers (or both types) you must record the girth "G" and luff "L" of your largest spinnaker. If using asymmetric spinnakers (or both types) you must record the requested information (ALU, AF, AMG, AF) for the largest asymmetric spinnaker. You must also list any "Code 0" sails (midgirth between 50% and 75%) you are using and list the dimensions as if it were an asymmetric spinnaker. Make sure you indicate how the spinnaker(s) are tacked to the boat (pole, bow sprit or lanyard) as indicated on the form. If requesting roller furling credit, complete all the RF information required on the application form. If the information is incomplete you may not receive a RF credit to your boats rating. See diagram below for example of rig measurements and RF information required. _


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Not sure about your area, but George on here would know the local rules best, in Puget sound, I can sail either nfs, or fs. NFS is 18sec a mile slower than my fs time. Altho this can vary from 15 to 24 secs depending upon headsail vs spin size. 

Also if you start a series in nfs, and you use a spin for one of 8 races, at least locally, ALL 8 races with be at your fs rating, not 7 nfs, 1 fs. If a single day race, you usually need to say what you will be doing by a day or two before the start, depending upon the length, club etc.

Generally speaking, you should get a fs/nfs rating. 

Marty


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## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

Thanks.

So, I wonder how bad a hit I'd take if I chose Aysm, but did the short races without it?

Whatever it is, its probably worth it for me, since the long races are what I really hope to do and would really want to be able to use the asym.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

There is no hit, at least for me doing a sym vs AS. Both may be measured the same, at least they are up here. It all comes down to, IS your spin maxed out! if not, then you get a credit if smaller than say 3%, you get a 3 sec credit, if 6% smaller you get a 6 sec, smaller than this, you do not get credits, but the time you have to gain, may not make up for the smaller spin vs a 155 wing on wing. 

Also if an AS works, is when you can sail at 120 to the wind, if the leg is literally downwind, I have had folks NFS WW beat as I tack down the course, or folks with sym go farther down wind, ie 170-175, and beat me. Depending upon the courses you do, AS are not always the best. I have been playing with pulling the tack out to 30 or so degree's max per rules with a spin pole, this has been helping get us farther down wind. ALong with some AS's are better designed and made for down wind, vs most try to work all but straight down wind, to a reach. Like my AS, I can sail upwards of 60* into the wind. It is also a 6 sec credit as it is a code 3. Not sure this sail really helps in many conditions, so a bigger code 5 is in the cards to purchase when I have the funds. I am glad I bought this AS, as it does do what I wanted, when I bought it etc. ie be about 90% of max, easy to use with spouse and I cruising, omething to learn with etc.

Marty


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## Gary M (May 9, 2006)

You need to ask the fleet captain/race director or whatever. You could have a weekly series that you choose to do only white sail but some special distance races that you want to do with a chute. 
I know around here that would be no problem. They would just enter the correct rating for different races/series.

Good Luck
gary


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## ste27 (Jul 29, 2007)

midlifesailor said:


> When you apply for a PHRF rating do you have to choose spin or non spin fleet or can you do some races as non spin and others using it?
> 
> I'd like to do some races, especially some of the longer distance ones here on the bay and also some club races. Downwind is not a wing-keeled C36's fastest point of sail especially in light air so a long race could be torturous unless we could use our asym. For the club races, I'd expect to be short handed, probably with pick up crew and would not want to use the chute.


In my experience generally when you apply for a rating you also get provided with a series of "adjustments" right on the cert. For example, we just got re-rated to 114, and it basically laid out what would happen if we lost the asym or sym (3 sec penalty for having both), the pole (6 sec bonus for no pole) etc. 115 is an important class break for us that we were now on the wrong side of... racing a cruiser with a microwave and flatscreen tv against stripped-out bowsprit racers. So we decided to lose the symmetrics to get us to 117, found out that we didn't pole the asym back at all as it rotated to windward just find so ditched the pole as well and now we're racing at 123, all on the same cert

I've seen many other ones like that as well, but it may just be a PHRFNE thing


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## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

Jeesh, and people wonder why racing is in decline. All I want to do is a few beer can races and participate in some 70-120 mile races and I don't want to spend a fortune to do it. 

I guess I'll include the asym in the application and take what I get. I don't expect to be at the front of the pack, and may not get in to the club races anyway, but I really want to take on the challenge of the longer overnight races just for the experience.


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## CalypsoP35 (Jul 24, 2006)

Don't take this as fact because I'm far from an authority on these matters, but I was under the impression that you get two ratings when you fill out your application a "racing" rating which would include your spinnakers and a "cruising" rating that is used for non-spinnaker racing.


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## ste27 (Jul 29, 2007)

midlifesailor said:


> Jeesh, and people wonder why racing is in decline. All I want to do is a few beer can races and participate in some 70-120 mile races and I don't want to spend a fortune to do it.
> 
> I guess I'll include the asym in the application and take what I get. I don't expect to be at the front of the pack, and may not get in to the club races anyway, but I really want to take on the challenge of the longer overnight races just for the experience.


Go with the asym, penatly should be a -3, might even be "free" if you already have a large sym. Expect a ratings hit of -6 to -12 depending on your rig compared to "white sails only"


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

midlifesailor said:


> Jeesh, and people wonder why racing is in decline. All I want to do is a few beer can races and participate in some 70-120 mile races and I don't want to spend a fortune to do it.
> 
> I guess I'll include the asym in the application and take what I get. I don't expect to be at the front of the pack, and may not get in to the club races anyway, but I really want to take on the challenge of the longer overnight races just for the experience.


Hmmmm... PHRF is about the cheapest rating certificate system going, so I don't really follow your thought about spinnaker vs NFS having anything to do with cost other than the sails themselves. Many clubs will give you a provisional rating at no cost if you're just doing their beer can races and you're a member. Around here, you can race beer cans Tuesdays, Thursdays, and Fridays with no rating or entry fee.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

midlife, a lot varies at the discretion of your local RC. For major events and "strict" RCs they will require a PHRF certificate for your individual boat.

BUT MANY OF THEM DO NOT. If all you want to do is some casual sailing and you're not playing the in uptight young turk leagues, SPEAK TO THE RC. Honest, catch them before the boat goes out one night and speak to some of them. You may find that they will gladly assign you a number based on other boats that have been measured and certified, so you don't have to pay for your own certificate at all.

They pretty much have full discretion in everything they do--so speak to them. If you can't catch them before the races, buy one a drink at the bar afterwards.<G> Working the RC boat is often a thankless chore, since they have to be the first ones out and last ones back, so a simple "THANK YOU RC" as you pass the finish line is always appreciated.

And if whatever group your racing with isn't your style? Ask around, there's usually an "old farts" series one night and a "high tension" series across the water on the next, you may want to try several to find the one that works for you.


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

Midlife, go ahead and get the phrf cert with the spinnaker included in the comps. I used to get a bit upset when I lost to a roller furling boat on corrected. But that just made me try harder, and now I'm beating my sister ships that rate 6 seconds slower. 

Definitely get the cert w/ the spin. Otherwise, in light air, it's flat out painful, and ungodly slow. Not to mention, pretty boring at the mark roundings.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

hellosailor said:


> <snip> Working the RC boat is often a thankless chore...<snip>


RC boat isn't all bad. I spent last night grilling sausages, drinking brew and playing music in the company of three gorgeous, intelligent blondes.

I even got to fire the starting gun.


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## CalypsoP35 (Jul 24, 2006)

CalypsoP35 said:


> Don't take this as fact because I'm far from an authority on these matters, but I was under the impression that you get two ratings when you fill out your application a "racing" rating which would include your spinnakers and a "cruising" rating that is used for non-spinnaker racing.


Nobody has any comments as to whether the above statement is correct?


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## ste27 (Jul 29, 2007)

PHRFNE certs do give handicaps for both, dunno about elsewhere

Attached is a shot of the relevant bits from our last cert

You may also find this info handy:

PHRF New England - FAQ

Different places do things differently, but the general idea will be the same


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## Sabreman (Sep 23, 2006)

PHRF of the Chesapeake gives you a base rating and then adjustments thereafter. In my case, I have both AS and SYM and neither gain nor lose because of either. The rating just assumes that I have a spin. My take is that if I DON'T use the spin, I'm just hurting myself.

Personally, I'd fly one of the spins regardless of whether I was shorthanded or not. To be honest, I can fly the AS with two people on board and the SYM with 3 (2 if it's light air). So the bottom line is that I race with the spin. I have enough against me as it is! :laugher 

Midlife - I hear you when it comes to doing the longer races on the Bay. We just did Gov Cup and for the 3rd year in a row, came in 3 places from last in our group. It may not seem it, but the boat keeps getting better w/ practice. I race just this one race a year with a pickup crew but we have fun. When mixing it up with the studs from Annapolis, expectations need to me managed  We plan to do Down The Bay in the spring.

Get the rating w/spin and use the beast.


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

Sabreman said:


> We plan to do Down The Bay in the spring.


I'll see ya out there. Did that this year, but 15-20 on the nose really hurts a 25 footer.


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## COOL (Dec 1, 2009)

Different regions use varying schemes in regard to handicaps.
So.Cal PHRF gives a base rating with the assumtion that your
boat is in ready to race condition with a 155% Genoa and a
standard sized spinnaker. Rating penalties are applied to 
modifications from the standard configuration.There may be
an adjustment different keel configurations, and area adjusments 
for venues with lighter or stronger winds. A non-spinnaker offset
is also calculated on the certificate, generally about 18 sec/mi.,
which can be used for non spin or mixed fleets.
Clubs often use a set of semi-standardized credits for 'Cruising' classes,
which give time for headsail size, fixed props, roller furling, number
of BBQs lit, etc.
Racing your boat, even in informal cruising type races, can be 
an eye opening and instructive experience. You will quickly learn
how much that fixed 3 blade, roller furling main, dinghy on davits
etc..., is effecting the performance of your boat.


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## Sabreman (Sep 23, 2006)

> Racing your boat, even in informal cruising type races, can be
> an eye opening and instructive experience


You couldn't be more correct!! As an example, I've been sailing since I was 10 (42 years ago), taught sailing, raced collegiately, and offshore in summers. Switched to cruising in '87 and "been there, done that". Then 3 years ago, I decided to do the MD Gov Cup; I have a teen age daughter that didn't want to come to the boat without a horde of girlfriends and we stayed at the dock a LOT. I wanted to keep up my night skills and learn or relearn sail trim and tactics. How humbling putting myself against the Annapolis crowd. I have a really nice Sabre, thought that it was pretty quick, and that I was pretty savy. Ummmmm. No. This year, with Kattack tracking our every move, the post race analysis that I'm doing is eye-opening. Between my crew of go-fast racers and Kattack, I'm relearning sailing.

Racing truly hones sailing skills; you don't really know how fast your boat is or how effective you are as a sailor unless you match yourself against someone else.

zz4gta - I wanted to do Down-The-Bay this year and last, but work got in the way. No one cried too hard for me this year since I was working in Hawaii, at sea part of the time. Ultimately, I want to do Annapolis-Newport.


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

CalypsoP35 said:


> Nobody has any comments as to whether the above statement is correct?


This was true for us as well. (PNW). Haven't raced NFS, but we do have both the FS and NFS rating on the certificate. No idea about other locales.


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## mikehoyt (Nov 27, 2000)

In Nova Scotia we provide a racing and a non spinnaker handicap. The one provison is that you cannot use undeclared sails in any race. Here you must declare your largest headsail, your largest spinnaker and if main is oversized must declare that as well. Sailing with an undeclared spinnaker gives RC no idea if it os oversized, etc... so is not allowed.

Simple answer. Declare the spin and in most reas yo can opt to enter a cruising NFS class or a spin class - you would normally have a slower NFS rating.

Mike


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## OPTION (Jul 28, 2009)

If you must change you engine and the closest replacement available changes engine weight from 150 lbs to 250 lbs, how does that change your PHRF?


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Option, the PHRF ratings are fairly simple.

Your certificate is based on a standard production boat. When you apply for a certificate you are supposed to let your local committee know about ALL custom or variant equipment on the boat. And when you change equipment, you are supposed to notify the committee again, and ask for a re-rating.

They may change your rating based on the added weight, or they may dimiss it as negligible. They may decide your boat is faster because if has more "ballast", or they may decide you are slower because the boat is heavier. Or they may tell you to keep racing for another season and they'll adjust it after they see what difference it makes.

You may want to see what difference the engine makes and then say something about it, when you notify the committee.

If someone were to inspect your boat and find the equipment _materially _differed from what was on your certificate, you could be DSQ'd from a race, or a season.


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

OPTION said:


> If you must change you engine and the closest replacement available changes engine weight from 150 lbs to 250 lbs, how does that change your PHRF?


Talk to your local PHRF official. They can probably give you an idea of the change over the phone before you reapply for a new cert.


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## COOL (Dec 1, 2009)

OPTION said:


> If you must change you engine and the closest replacement available changes engine weight from 150 lbs to 250 lbs, how does that change your PHRF?


I would report the change, but most likely there
will be no rating adjustment. PHRF committees are
quick to give a penalty for any modification that may
make the boat faster, but rarely give a 'credit' for 
something that may make it slower.
I converted from an inboard to an outboard motor
and recieved a -6 sec/mi adjustment.


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## cartagena (Dec 13, 2010)

*Phrf for the new beneteau first 40*

Does anyone know the phrf rating for the 2011 beneteau first 40 ?
and for the first 50 ?


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## COOL (Dec 1, 2009)

cartagena said:


> Does anyone know the phrf rating for the 2011 beneteau first 40 ?


33 in So. Cal


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## cartagena (Dec 13, 2010)

*PHRF for beneteau first 50*

does anyone know the phrf for the beneteau first 50


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

http://offshore.ussailing.org/Assets/Offshore/PHRF/High+Low+Mean+PHRF+Handicaps.pdf

There is a link to the US Sailings list of phrf ratings for boat, high, low and ave for ALL ussailing reporting clubs etc. So the list may not be accurate per say for your region, but will get you close if there are a few boats like you want rated.

marty


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## OPTION (Jul 28, 2009)

Your PHRF certficate should give you both a spinnaker and non-spinnaker rating.


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