# Pulled out a cleat at my slip, now getting pursued for damages - advice please



## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

Need some advice on this one. Over the winter, the boat pulled a cleat out of the dock where I pay a slip fee. It turns out the the floating dock that we are tied to belongs to someone other than the marina. So when the floating dock owner called the marina, the marina said to come after me for the money. The boat is exactly where the marina put it the day they put her back in the water, so I feel it should be the marina's call, especially since I'm paying them for the slip.

Damages look like replacing the cleat that snapped off and screwing the facia board back onto the floating dock. It's a 60 foot floating dock, so the fee to haul it out to do the work is going to be substantial. My deductible is huge, and I'm not sure I should be paying this. 

So I got a call from the owner, asking for my insurance information. What do you think I should do next?

Regards,
Brad


----------



## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

I have no advice for you but I'm curious: Your marina is collecting money from you to rent you a slip that it doesn't even own?


----------



## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

Post your question in the Ask a Lawyer section of the Avvo.com - Expert Advice When You Need It Most lawyer directory in the state where the marina is located: Ask a Lawyer - Avvo.com


----------



## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

read the fine print of your agreement first? Keep insisting it wasn't secure and you almost lost your boat? look for damage on your boat to make a counter claim. Get ready to find another home for you boat too. 
Jus sayin...


----------



## jrd22 (Nov 14, 2000)

Preface-I'm definitely not an attorney. This should be detailed in the moorage agreement you have with the marina. Our contract for moorage spells out various liabilities etc and who is responsible. If you were directed to this slip by the marina, and were tied in such a way that was acceptable to them then it would seem to me if "their" hardware was either insufficiently strong to hold your boat, or the structure of the float wasn't strong enough to hold the through bolts then that should be on them. The cleats need to be appropriately sized for the size and displacement of the boat tied to them. The fact that only one was torn out suggests to me that there was a structural problem (rot, corrosion, etc) at that cleat. Good luck.


----------



## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

DRFerron said:


> I have no advice for you but I'm curious: Your marina is collecting money from you to rent you a slip that it doesn't even own?


Correct



jameswilson29 said:


> Post your question in the Ask a Lawyer section of the Avvo.com - Expert Advice When You Need It Most lawyer directory in the state where the marina is located: Ask a Lawyer - Avvo.com


Done. Good idea.



deniseO30 said:


> read the fine print of your agreement first? Keep insisting it wasn't secure and you almost lost your boat? look for damage on your boat to make a counter claim. Get ready to find another home for you boat too.
> Jus sayin...


I don't believe we have a contract. They did a short haul of my boat and then offered the slip afterward.

Regards,
Brad


----------



## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

You have no relationship with the dock owner so I wouldnt speak to them. I would refer them to the marina you have a business relationship with.

I would also make a point that it was employees of the marina that secured your boat in such a way as to allow the dock to be damaged.

After that theres nothiing to do but lawyer up and be ready for court.


----------



## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

I second not dealing with the owner of the dock.


----------



## WouldaShoulda (Oct 7, 2008)

I don't understand how your negligence caused damages to the alleged injured party.

While they are at it, have them explain how their lack of maintenence is your problem. 

Call your insurance company.

Tell us who the pirates are so we can avoid them.


----------



## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

midlifesailor said:


> ...
> I would also make a point that it was employees of the marina that secured your boat in such a way as to allow the dock to be damaged.
> ..


If this is correct, I mean if it was not you but the marina staff that secured your boat I cannot see how you have to pay. If it was you that secured the boat they can say that it was not properly secured and that the forces where not properly distributed.

They provide a service and the means to do it. If the means are not up to provide the service how can this be your fault?

This is a problem between you and the one that provide you with a service: the marina. The problem to know if the marina could rent the space that belonged to someone else is between the marina and the owner of that space.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## CapnBilll (Sep 9, 2006)

WOW, I've never had an issue go that far, (knock on wood), I ditto the insurance, they have lawyers too.


----------



## KIVALO (Nov 2, 2011)

Does your marina have or have they had a relationship of some form that allowed your marina the use of the dock your boat was secured to?


----------



## tweitz (Apr 5, 2007)

I would take the position that (a) your only contract is with the marina, and it is between the marina and the slip owner (who you did not even know was not the marina); and (b) in any case, all you did was tie the boat up to the marina in the normal course, and if the slip was damaged, it is the fault of deficient hardware on the slip and not you or your boat.


----------



## SPC (Nov 26, 2009)

If you have a choice, move your boat and make no further response to anyone about the incident. 

In my opinion, they are at the, "Let's try to get someone else to pay stage," one of the most common stages of American life. If they reach the talk to an attorney stage, I think that this will go away. 

If you have no choice about storing your boat or must maintain the relationship with the marina, I suggest that you hire an attorney to talk with them and see if he/she can't make it go away for $200 or less without directly changing your relationships.


----------



## delite (Nov 2, 2009)

If they have tied you to a dock that doesnt belong to them I'd give them a choice. Fix the damage or return all of your slip rental fees since they dont own the property and didnt have permission to rent it.


----------



## KIVALO (Nov 2, 2011)

delite said:


> If they have tied you to a dock that doesnt belong to them I'd give them a choice. Fix the damage or return all of your slip rental fees since they dont own the property and didnt have permission to rent it.


I wouldn't, slip rental might be cheaper than hauling and repairing the dock.


----------



## steveg353 (Jun 17, 2008)

Good luck Bene…I hope justice and common sense prevail.

This raises a hypothetical question in my mind. I am in a marina that, I assume owns all of their docks. If my boat pulled the cleat off the dock and hit the boat in the next slip….who is financially responsible for repairs to the dock, my boat, and my neighbor’s boat? Is there a general rule of thumb or is it a contract by contract situation?


----------



## Rozz (Jun 30, 2011)

if u have proof of payment to them u should only be dealing with the marina. most insurance ive heard/know about will cover ur lawyer fees to an exent. call ur insurance and have your people talk to their people. they (ur insuance) have lawyers in their pocket lol

imho of coarse...


----------



## nolatom (Jun 29, 2005)

Absent any contractual language that makes the boat (owner) responsible for all damage to mooring devices, I'd say that a cleat or its anchoring timbers that give up the ghost while undergoing the loads of a properly-moored (i.e. you didn't lead six lines to one cleat, or try to spring-pivot off it at full throttle) and proper-sized boat for the slip, is due to the mooring bitt being either too weak or improperly maintained.

Therefore it's "wharfinger's" fault, not vessel's.


----------



## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Call your insurance agent. A boat owner is responsible for the damage caused by their boat. The marinas that I have berthed at out here on the West Coast all required proof of $300K liability insurance and that they were listed as “co-insured” on the policy. If the dock timbers were rotten, it was your responsibility to notify the marina management for repair. If you had done this before the incident, then perhaps some of the “blame” could be apportioned to the marina management. Right now, your only recourse it to negotiate a settlement with the owner to share the repair expense. Fight with him, and you will most likely lose the suit and then be stuck with the entire repair bill.


----------



## PorFin (Sep 10, 2007)

OK, I'm not a lawyer so please bear with me on a couple of thoughts.

First, unless Bene was negligent in how he secured his vessel then my initial thought is that he shoulders no fault here. 

The marina knew the size/displacement of Bene's boat. By assigning him this particular parking place, they assume responsibility for ensuring that is it adequately sized to hold his vessel. It was their call to put him there, not Bene's. The marina should carry their own insurance to cover things like this.

If the cleat tore out due to improper maintenance of the dock and/or dock hardware, then the owner is at fault. Look at it another way: Say the mailman comes to my house, and while he is delivering the mail the front door falls off of the hinges. You think the USPS is going to buy me a new door? I'm betting not... The dock owner and the marina need to work it out between themselves. 

Of course, this is assuming that common sense is at play here.

Bene, I hope you don't wind up having to get lawyered up for this one. I'm in full agreement that you should be dealing only with the marina.


----------



## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

George in your scenario the marina bears no responsibility for their docks or equipment. I can't see that being the case -- even if their slip agreement is written that way. I'm not a lawyer but I do know that a contract can't supercede the law. Put another way, if you fell through the dock would it be your fault for not swimming underneath to check its condition?

I'd put it right back in the marina's lap. Their equipment failed -- regardless of whether they're subletting that equipment. It's not up to you to determine the cause. Online everybody wants to be a lawyer and overthink these things.

I wouldn't get the insurance company involved unless this guy really wants to push it. Sounds like a fishing expedition. Hopefully you have a good relationship with the marina. That could help.

Best of luck Brad. Dealing with this is the kind of thing that can really ruin your day.


----------



## uwyoda (Aug 26, 2007)

*liability insurance deductible unlikely*

Brad,
I believe you mentioned that you had not contacted your insurance company because your "deductible is huge". Most likely, your deductible only applies to damage to your boat. Liability deductibles are rare on marine insurance. I suggest you talk to your insurance company and let them deal with it.


----------



## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

I think we have an apples and oranges comparison. A person falling through an unsafe dock is far different than your property causing damage to someone else’s property. The analogy would be more like: You park your car on a hill. Somehow, it rolls down the hill and hits a parked rental car. Who is responsible, the person who rented the car? The car’s manufacturer who should have foreseen you parking on that hill? I would still work with your insurance company and the owner of the property in order to mitigate your exposure. 

This does bring up some interesting questions. Who’s insurance company pays for the damages in a hurricane or tsunami? When the tsunami hit Santa Cruz there were plenty of boats sunk or damaged by being hit by other boats or docks? Any Santa Cruz sailors out there?


----------



## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

Would it really require hauling a 60 ft dock out of the water to replace a face board and a cleat? 

It certainly can't hurt to get advice from your insurance company. 

I tend to agree with those that have saidl; the only contract you had was between you and the marina. If they're a full service yard, they already have labor, and they must have cleats. If the marina leases the docks from dock owner and then rents them to you, it would seem they have an obligation to maintain them. But that couldn't be known without seeing their contractual arrangement. What's in the fine print of your rental agreement?


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Any color on why she pulled a cleat? Was it rotted or overloaded/undersized or weather related? Might make a significant different in how I handled it.


----------



## Siamese (May 9, 2007)

Wait a minute...lemme get this straight. 

1. You rent a slip at this marina
2. The marina launched your boat and tied it to the dock that got damaged. But, if I understand your original post, the boat WAS NOT IN YOUR SLIP. Please clarify. The marina parked your boat there on a temporary basis?

If that's the case, I'd tell the dock owner to bugger off. What if the marina owner was launching the boat, but dropped it on someone's Mercedes? Your fault? I don't think so.


----------



## scratchee (Mar 2, 2012)

Not only am I not a lawyer, but I really don't know jack about anything.

Having said that, it's my opinion that nobody has a legal right to your insurance information. If the dock owner is legally entitled to compensation from you, then they need to take that up with you. You can decide whether to submit a claim to your insurance company or not.

I once had a truck that was struck and significantly damaged by another vehicle while my truck was parked. The other driver's insurance company asked me for my insurance information, and told me that I had to file a claim with my insurance company first, to see if they would pay. I did not give them the information, and told them that my insurance had nothing to do with the other driver's liability for the damage to my truck. Likewise, I think it's possible that the dock owner is hoping that they can get some free money from your insurance. I think that here in the U.S., many people think of insurance as a way to get money out of an unfortunate situation without anyone having to take responsibility, and many policy holders go along with this because they feel like they've dodged a bullet if their insurance company pays somebody.

If I were in the position that I think you've described, I would respond once, or perhaps twice, to the dock owner with a polite registered letter explaining that you are not liable for the damages to their dock. After that I would ignore them until contacted by a lawyer. I certainly would not give them my insurance information as that is none of their business.

By the way, it wouldn't hurt to get some advice from an attorney now. Many will offer a free consultation.


----------



## Lake Superior Sailor (Aug 23, 2011)

I wonder if you all should reconsider this attitude: Do you really want to move? If you got the owner & the marina master out to look at the problem, the 3 of you could fix it together ;& come away loking like best friends, No War! You I am afraid got caught up in,a on going Problem, that a cool head could easily sort out . Life short . Offer to take the guy sailing!...Dale


----------



## KnottyGurl (Feb 8, 2011)

have you got photos of the damaged dock, the wood, the bolt size in the cleat and cleat its self with a measure tape along side to show sizes.
If you have a contract with marina then read it and see where you stand. If nothing mentioned then tell marina it's their baby and be happy that nothing happened to your boat.
As for the mystery dock owner " Mute" your only dealings are with marina.
If you feel responsible then repair it, if not then don't.
If marina put it there, then their responsible.


----------



## MobiusALilBitTwisted (Jun 25, 2007)

Bene505 said:


> Need some advice on this one. Over the winter, the boat pulled a cleat out of the dock where I pay a slip fee. It turns out the the floating dock that we are tied to belongs to someone other than the marina. So when the floating dock owner called the marina, the marina said to come after me for the money. The boat is exactly where the marina put it the day they put her back in the water,


_So after she was Splashed the Marina placed her on a floating Dock not Marina proper ?_



Bene505 said:


> so I feel it should be the marina's call, especially since I'm paying them for the slip.


_the Marina Management is placing the blame on you, for there actions, can you prove the marina placed your boat on a dock they do not own?_



Bene505 said:


> Damages look like replacing the cleat that snapped off and screwing the facia board back onto the floating dock. It's a 60 foot floating dock, so the fee to haul it out to do the work is going to be substantial. My deductible is huge, and I'm not sure I should be paying this.


_per your post the Damage is not of your making, but the next part is your call_



Bene505 said:


> So I got a call from the owner, asking for my insurance information. What do you think I should do next?
> 
> Regards,
> Brad


_Time to talk to your Marina and deside if they will own up to the damage and pay the bill for repair, if not time to find a new place to keep the Boat, do you want to have then to continue to care for your boat if this is how they are going to react to there misjudgment in the placing of your boat after splashing her. again per your post_


----------



## MobiusALilBitTwisted (Jun 25, 2007)

KnottyGurl said:


> As for the mystery dock owner " Mute" your only dealings are with marina.
> If you feel responsible then repair it, if not then don't.
> If marina put it there, then their responsible.


_Careful , if the Marina said "didn't put her there talk to the owner", then he might have to fight to make the marina pay the bill not of his making_


----------



## GMC (Sep 14, 2009)

I am a lawyer and I don't know the answer to your question. The law is different in every jurisdiction. My suggestion, though, is that you first approach the marina and ask why the dock owner was directed to you and ask them to resolve it with the dock owner and leave you out of it. The marina appears to be primarily responsible and like many businesses (and people) would like to avoid paying out of its pocket or making a claim on its policy by directing claimants to other people and thus other insurance companies. Your contract (oral and still valid) is with the marina. Your rights and responsibilities stem from that contract. The owner of the dock has his own understanding with the marina and similarly there is an understanding regarding responsibilities. I imagine it includes maintenance and repair of the dock. Stem the flow. Confront the marina. Will probably end there.


----------



## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

In what state is the boat? 

Who tied it up?

Was the boat tied up "properly," or was there a short line that would have imposed unreasonable stress on the cleat?

In order for you to have liability, it must be by contract, statute or tort. In my reading of this thread so far, I see none of the above.


----------



## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Brad, I'd go with the choir on this one.

But first, call the dock owner back. Make friends. "Gee I'm sorry about your dock, but I didn't tie the boat up there. The marina tied it up, and it looks like they could have SUNK MY BOAT too, what were they thinking? Hey, I'm upset too!"

You know, gently, but suggest that the two of you tag-team the marina, who put your boat in great danger AND damaged their dock.

Of course, the marina may be petty and throw a fit (bad idea when business is soft, but a common thing) and ask you to move if you don't roll belly-up.

But I'm betting that under NYS law, unless you've got some real peculiar contract, and even if you do have one, that a small-claims court would say "Hey, marina! You tied it up? You last laid hands on it? You told Bene to keep his boat there, and didn't bother telling him it wasn't your dock? You trespassed! Now you have to pay the damages, and the court costs. Now."

Offer to file the small claims case against the marina, if the dock owner co-signs you'll do the rest (probably cost $25 in most LI towns). That automatically makes it two against one, and the marina (who knows damn well that they are in the wrong) has to pay an attorney to represent them in small claims court, as a business they can't do it without one.

Ask around, pay an attorney for a legal opinion. I'm just a dog, we're not supposed to use the internet at all, much less give legal advice on anything except biting postmen. But I'll bet you two chewie-bones and a squeaky toy that the attorney says the same thing.

And if you tell me the name of the marina, I'll ask all my friends to pee on their front door, just to teach 'em a lesson about being nice guys.


----------



## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

GeorgeB said:


> Call your insurance agent. A boat owner is responsible for the damage caused by their boat. The marinas that I have berthed at out here on the West Coast all required proof of $300K liability insurance and that they were listed as "co-insured" on the policy. If the dock timbers were rotten, it was your responsibility to notify the marina management for repair. If you had done this before the incident, then perhaps some of the "blame" could be apportioned to the marina management. Right now, your only recourse it to negotiate a settlement with the owner to share the repair expense. Fight with him, and you will most likely lose the suit and then be stuck with the entire repair bill.


That sounds just insane enough to be the legal truth.  I can sure see a Canadian judge coming up with a ruling that "Red Queen" demented.


----------



## LinekinBayCD (Oct 19, 2009)

gmc said:


> i am a lawyer and i don't know the answer to your question. The law is different in every jurisdiction. My suggestion, though, is that you first approach the marina and ask why the dock owner was directed to you and ask them to resolve it with the dock owner and leave you out of it. The marina appears to be primarily responsible and like many businesses (and people) would like to avoid paying out of its pocket or making a claim on its policy by directing claimants to other people and thus other insurance companies. Your contract (oral and still valid) is with the marina. Your rights and responsibilities stem from that contract. The owner of the dock has his own understanding with the marina and similarly there is an understanding regarding responsibilities. I imagine it includes maintenance and repair of the dock. Stem the flow. Confront the marina. Will probably end there.


+1


----------



## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

I am not in marina management, however, several of my friends manage marinas here in San Francisco and down in San Diego. If I bump into one of them this weekend I’ll be sure to ask the question. It is pretty common where the marina is owned by one entity and the management is contracted out as I suspect is in Bene’s case. The management’s contract may only go so far as collecting rents and marketing but not covering maintenance and repair of facilities. Don’t confuse the rent collector with the landlord. You do not have to be negligent in order to be responsible for damage caused by your property. The classic case of a branch on a tree that you own comes off in a storm and damages a parked car comes to mind. I don’t think that suitability of use enters into here either. They are renting a sixty foot section of dock they are not giving an implied warranty that whatever boat you put there will never damage the dock – you will have to purchase insurance for that one. To prove that you are not responsible for the damages caused by your boat, you have to prove that it was through their action or inaction that caused your boat to damage the dock. How many other dock cleats were pulled out during that storm? Was the cleat loose or the wood rotted? If so, why didn’t you notify the Marina? As said earlier, having a non-adversarial relationship will be helpful in mitigating the damages you will ultimately have to pay. Remember, the only people getting rich during litigation are the lawyers. If you refuse to pay, don’t be surprised to find your boat chained to the dock, a lien placed against your boat, or the debt turned over to a collection agency. In the end, I hope that I'm wrong and Bene doesn't have to pay for dock repair, but I suspect that is not the case. I'd be talking this one with my insurance agent who would be just as reluctant to pay this one out as I am.


----------



## Roxy405 (Feb 29, 2012)

I'm not a lawyer in your jurisdiction, but....

You could write a whole lot of words about various types of legal liability & get into really complex disputes on the forum. For example, I don't agree with a lot of what George has written about you having to prove that the owner or marina's action or inaction caused the damage. Unless your jurisdiction applies the principles of _res ipsa loquitur_ unusually, the burden of proof lies on the claimant and it is incumbent upon them to prove you have either been negligent, committed some tort or breached a statutory duty. Similarly, impounding your boat & placing a lien over it is possible but unless your jurisdiction has some very odd laws, they won't be able to do that in the time it takes to exchange a few polite letters.

But, at the end of the day, they might be able to on both points--I just don't know. The best advice anyone (who isn't an attorney who deals with these kind of problems) could give you is to at least notify your insurer and establish your potential exposure. The insurer may object if you try to handle it yourself and later need them to cough up-particularly if they have a default "settle everything policy".

You might also want to ask the dock owner to identify why he thinks you're legally responsible. If he can't produce a satisfactory answer, the alarm bells might start going off to warn you he is simply claimant shopping.


----------



## Siamese (May 9, 2007)

Where's the original poster? 

Who put the boat on the dock the marina didn't own?

Yes or no....was the boat in the rented slip?


----------



## jimrafford (Jan 7, 2011)

This entire debate is rediculus. Replacing a broken cleat on a dock is a pretty minor repair. If the dock is rotten and faulty thats the owners neglegence.
Jim


----------



## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Where we differ is some people believe that a marina renting us a slip assumes all responsibility for the damages our boat causes to their slip. I disagree, we are responsible for the damages caused by our property. What I’m trying to say is to work with the owner towards sharing the responsibility. Try to get the owner to chip in for some of the repairs under the guise that the dock/cleat was old and needed repair/replacement anyway. From a proof standpoint all the owner has to prove is that your boat was the boat that damaged his dock. Pretty simple. In order not to be responsible, you have to prove that there was something wrong with the dock in the first place. I doubt that a good defense would be “he should have known that my boat would have broken his dock when he rented the slip to me.”

An interesting point that hardly has been mentioned is what kind of lease agreement do we have or don’t have with our marinas? Without an agreement, what protects you from monthly rent increases? Eviction? In the past thirty years I’ve been a marina tenant, I have signed lease agreements and the past two marinas required that they be listed as “co-insured”. How about you guys?


----------



## scratchee (Mar 2, 2012)

GeorgeB,

I rent a car. I go to open the door, and the door handle comes off in my hand. Did I break the door?

A cleat on a dock is made to tie a boat to. If someone ties a boat to it and the cleat breaks, I don't think the blame defaults to the boat owner. Of course it's possible that the boat owner _is_ responsible, but that determination cannot be made by default. That's my opinion, which is wrong about 70% of the time.


----------



## michigancruisers (Sep 12, 2008)

To have a liability for the damage you have to satisfy each of the following four points.
Owe a duty – have a breach of duty - causation – harm

You owe no duty to the dock owner (you have no contract with him, just the marina)
Thus, you cannot have a breach of duty
You were not the cause the problem. The marina was.
There was harm

It’s not your problem.

See a lawyer


----------



## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

Nothing in my contract requiring me to list the marina as a co-insured. I am however, required to provide the marina with a copy of my insurance. Insurance must include complete Hull and liability. And, I am "responsible for any damage that I cause to other boats...or to structures" 

Also:

" Tenant releases marina from any and all liability from loss, injury or damages to persons or property sustained while in or on the Marina Premises."


----------



## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

I'm no lawyer so take this with a grain of salt;

The marina may ultimately be at fault, but, I fear that you have the burden of playing the middle man.

Imagine you owned a dock and a boat was tied up without permission and damage was done. Would you go seek out the owner of the boat, or, a third party?


----------



## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

We are now getting into the area of implied warranty. Interesting point. The door handle comes off in your hand and you take the car to the dealer. Do they fix the handle no questions asked? (assume for the argument that there is no expressed warranty.) Or, do you have to convince them that it was broken due to no fault of your own, but rather through their fault? (of design, manufacturing defect, whatever.) If your boat was the only one that pulled out a cleat that day and that was the only cleat your boat pulled out, you would have a problem arguing implied warranty. How do we know if the boat was properly tied up (for the conditions) in the first place? One could argue that the boat was not properly sprung or that one or more of mooring lines was a little slack, causing the damaging shock loads on that single cleat? But, hey, I’m on Bene’s side – why would I be arguing for the dock owner?


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

hellosailor said:


> ...Offer to file the small claims case against the marina, if the dock owner co-signs you'll do the rest (probably cost $25 in most LI towns). That automatically makes it two against one, and the marina (who knows damn well that they are in the wrong) has to pay an attorney to represent them in small claims court, as a business they can't do it without one...


I disagree with this suggestion.

Why would the OP sue the marina at this point? He still has his money, so he has the "home field advantage." The onus is on the allegedly aggrieved person to file the suit. It in OP's interest to sit pat and let them come after him (which, ultimately, they probably won't). You sue people who owe you money - you don't sue people that say you owe them money (unless they withhold services to which your are entitled).

So if they collect your rent check and then refuse to let you into your slip, sue them. But as long as OP has his money, let the other guys go to the trouble of suing.

I do think OP should call his insurance company and let them know the full story of what happened. That's what they're there for. They have their own lawyers that will defend their mutual interests, at no extra charge. I, too, have never heard of a deductible for liability coverage.

I also think that we do not know enough of both sides of the story to make any further judgements. OP hasn't made it completely clear who did the tying up of the boat, and if he did it, whether the marina directed him to tie it up where he did. Those could be important considerations for determining liability - although the insurance company could really help him determine this.


----------



## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

Hmm, in five pages and 50 posts we've managed to resolve a couple of things:


This one has really touched a nerve.
A lot of Sailnetters are considering a career change and want to practice law.
Brad has seen what he started and headed for the hills since he's nowhere to be found. :laugher

I still say keep a cool head and keep it simple. Talk to someone at the marina who's in charge, not just the girl in the office. Ask the marina what they want to do about their broken equipment. Common sense says your boat was tied to a cleat. It's reasonable to expect the cleat to hold the boat. That's pretty much its only job. 

I wouldn't get into making threats or even involving the insurance company unless the dock owner really pushes the issue.

Hopefully you already have a good relationship with the marina. That can sometimes help smooth over some bumps.

Everybody needs to chill a little ...


----------



## donradclife (May 19, 2007)

In my marina, we don't need no stinkin lawyers when a cleat pulls out of the dock. I call the office, they someone over and put a new cleat on and fix the dock if necessary. All done for less than what 15 minutes of a lawyer's time costs.


----------



## PaulinVictoria (Aug 23, 2009)

I'm not a lawyer, and have nothing to add here. Just thought I'd join in as everyone else is


----------



## Mystic1 (Feb 16, 2012)

Siamese said:


> Where's the original poster?


It appears he dropped out of this amusing thread 5 pages ago


----------



## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

Hey all, I've been working and taking care of the kids and such. (It's only been a day and a half since I last posted, right?)

The marina put the boat in that spot after putting her back in the water after my short haul. It is not a temporary spot but the actual spot for my winter berthing, and in the actual position that the marina put me in. The state is NY.

I'm going to take some pictures next time I go there. From what I saw, it's missing a 12" cleat that snapped off. Also the facia board (side board) is dropped down into the water on one side. I actually think that 1 hour, a couple big bolts, a new cleat (or magnet to find the lost one), some nails and it will be as good as new. $50 maybe. What I worry about is how it gets fixed, and for what charge, and where the creative claiming ends. What if he says "you scuffed my 10 year old side board"? If the guy is calling me over this, then what's next?

No written contract. Last November I was planning to go elsewhere after the short haul was over, when the marina manager approach me and offered a good deal for the winter. I like the place and the people (characters) there. I sometimes get a pizza and share it with them. They provide me with much needed free (and good) advice. And I would like to stay on good terms with them, but not if I feel I'm getting used. At this point I'm not sure how I feel about the whole thing. And maybe the solution is to get together and fix the thing and be done with it.

The dock owner is another story. By asking me for my insurance information, and asking me how much my deductible is, and saying "don't worry, it won't cost YOU anything", he feels like a bit of a cad. I have a business relationship with my insurance company and it doesn't feel right to push them under a bus.

I did call my insurance company about this, my agent said I'd get a call back, which never came. I need to call them again, if I can't work this out with the marina. I actually don't mind helping out, regardless of fault. I just don't mind helping people when I'm around boats. I think most of us are that way or we wouldn't be sharing our experiences, etc. on a forum.

All the advice is very helpful. This is totally new territory for me.

Regards,
Brad


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Brad,

Working it out amiably makes sense. Just keep this in mind as that dock owner might pressure you.

What would be happening if that cleat broke and, as a result, damage occurred to your boat? You're not the guilty party here.


----------



## LinekinBayCD (Oct 19, 2009)

GeorgeB said:


> Where we differ is some people believe that a marina renting us a slip assumes all responsibility for the damages our boat causes to their slip. I disagree, we are responsible for the damages caused by our property. What I'm trying to say is to work with the owner towards sharing the responsibility. Try to get the owner to chip in for some of the repairs under the guise that the dock/cleat was old and needed repair/replacement anyway. From a proof standpoint all the owner has to prove is that your boat was the boat that damaged his dock. Pretty simple. In order not to be responsible, you have to prove that there was something wrong with the dock in the first place. I doubt that a good defense would be "he should have known that my boat would have broken his dock when he rented the slip to me."
> 
> An interesting point that hardly has been mentioned is what kind of lease agreement do we have or don't have with our marinas? Without an agreement, what protects you from monthly rent increases? Eviction? In the past thirty years I've been a marina tenant, I have signed lease agreements and the past two marinas required that they be listed as "co-insured". How about you guys?


If a cleat on the boat pulled out, yes. When a cleat on the dock fails, no.


----------



## INMA (Sep 13, 2011)

Avoid lawyers at all cost.

You have insurance and its bought to cover things like this.

See if you can negotiate with the marina owners and dock owner to sort out the mess for less than the cost of an insurance claim.

Given docks need slipping for maintenace and the marina provides this service, you might be able to negotiate a low price solution where the slip owner pays for maintenance acknowledging there were maintenance issues and you contribute to a repair to avoid using your insurance.

Lawyers will suck the life out of everyone and not fix the dock or your need to claim on insurance.

Find the softest option by negotiation, stay nice and control your costs.

Then get over it and enjoy a sail.


----------



## steel (Sep 1, 2010)

If someone steals my boat or takes it and puts in somewhere without my permission, and the thief is known, do I have to pay for damages? I hope not!

The marina did this so it would seem perfectly fair for them to pay.

Besides as it was said this is a fairly trivial repair. Can the dock be floated over to the place where they haul boats out and raised up for repair if necessary?


----------



## BCC1 (Dec 18, 2011)

Life is short. 

Offer the owner a couple of bills and make nice. High road, dude. 

Especially if you like the marina and want the boys to deal with your boat when you're not aboard.

Do right, not legal.


----------



## jimrafford (Jan 7, 2011)

Let's look at this from a different perspective. Lets say the marina put your boat on a mooring. While your boat was there the hardwear on the mooring failed. Are you responsible for repairing the mooring. I don't think so. I have 2 friends whose boats were lost do to mooring failure over the years. Their insurance went after the owner of the mooring.
Jim


----------



## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"Avoid lawyers at all cost."
INMA, you sound like my dry cleaner. He says the smell of attorney is incredibly hard to get out of good wool, worse than skunk spray. (VBG)

Steel, New York is funny about liability and motor vehicles. For some years the auto leasing companies actually stopped doing business in NY because of the "vicarious liability laws" which state a motor vehicle OWNER is responsible for all damage the vehicle does--regardless of who was operating it. Yes, percents were assigned and there were defenses and the laws have been changed, but still, it is possible that an owner is still responsible, or at least, responsible until and unless they can prove someone else is.
It's Brad's boat, can he prove who was the last person who touched that line, that cleat? Can he prove to a small claim's court that "It wasn't me" and the marina guy did it?

That's why Brad's idea of spending $50 on some materials and just fixing it may be the most effective solution. Although as I understand it, in NY things are the same as they have always been, i.e. the last guy who made fast the line, is responsible for whatever happens as a result of it. You see a loose line at a marina? You call the dockmaster, you don't touch it. Liability. It ain't "neighborly" but these days, neither are many of the neighbors.

Brad, if you do work it out the easy way and just buy some timber and fittings...I'd still hand the bill to the marina owner and tell him "Man up, you guys tied it up, the least you can do is pay for the materials, I already saved you the rest."


----------



## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

The great thing about liability law is that it never lets common sense get in the way of pushing the cost on someone else.


----------



## jimrafford (Jan 7, 2011)

Don't think I'd fix the dock yourself. If the cleat fails on another boat who do you think the dock owner is going to go after next. 
Jim


----------



## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

I talked to the marina manager and then check out what he said, and saw that it's true.

The cleat wasn't really fastened to the dock "through anything", but it was u-bolted to the end of the dock's cross beam. Actually it was u-bolted to a plate under the cross beam. If I can use an engagement ring analogy, the cleat was the diamond at the top, the ring around your finger is the u-bolt around a beam, and there's a piece of metal on the underside of your finger. The only thing keeping the cleat on was pressure on the cross beam, friction, the last row of decking board and the rusty-nailed-on facia board.


As you can guess what happens when things get wet and dry and wood gets old, the cleat's u-bolt simply slipped off the end of the beam.

My camera phone was charging so I didn't get any stills of it yet (but have a video I can upload later). It looks like all the cleats on the floating dock are held on that way. Is this the normal way to build a floating dock?

I do really want to try to solve this in a friendly way. Maybe I could use a magnet to locate the missing cleat, backing plate and u-bolt (likely still connected to each other). Or maybe I'll go for a SCUBA dive.

The marina manager says the float doesn't need to be hauled, but will take a 1/2 days labor to fix. Not sure how it could take that long.

Regards,
Brad


----------



## Tim R. (Mar 23, 2003)

Why isn't the cleat still attached to your line?


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

You paid for an inferior accommodation and they want you to repair it? This makes no sense.

Our floating docks are covered in tres and the 12" galvanized cleats are every 10 feet and through bolted. I suspect they would hold the Queen Mary. 

Is there any more to the story here? Good question why it isn't still on the end of your line. Who touched it last, etc.


----------



## jimrafford (Jan 7, 2011)

I own my dock. My cleats are thru bolted thru the decking and a horizontal 4 x 4 that is lag bolted thru the 4 x 10's of the dock. good luck ripping them off.
As far as I'm concerned you are getting ripped off by a bunch of insurance scamming conartists
Jim


----------



## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

Were there no spring lines ? or was the spring attached to the same cleat? 

I'm trying to visualize the amount of boat motion there could be on boat tied to a floating dock, to rip a cleat out, if it was even reasonably mounted.


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Bene505 said:


> I talked to the marina manager and then check out what he said, and saw that it's true.
> 
> The cleat wasn't really fastened to the dock "through anything", but it was u-bolted to the end of the dock's cross beam. Actually it was u-bolted to a plate under the cross beam. If I can use an engagement ring analogy, the cleat was the diamond at the top, the ring around your finger is the u-bolt around a beam, and there's a piece of metal on the underside of your finger. The only thing keeping the cleat on was pressure on the cross beam, friction, the last row of decking board and the rusty-nailed-on facia board.
> 
> ...


Based on your description, it sounds like that 1/2 day of labor is making up for days of maintenance that the marina or dock owner should have been doing, but didn't. Like they say, "pay me now or pay me later." But normal maintenance of the docks is not your responsibility - it's part of the service provided under your rent.

If you're thinking of moving elsewhere, this is your opportunity to tell them to pound sand. Let them sue you for 1/2 day of labor. I doubt they'd go to the trouble.

If you want to call their bluff, tell them you think this was normal wear and tear, and their fault for not checking/maintaining the U-bolts. Explain this to them in a letter, and keep a copy of the letter in case they sue you. You'll look reasonable in the eyes of a small claims judge. If they want to keep you as a customer, they'll yield.

If you want to be free of the hassle, just let your insurance company handle it. That's what insurance is for. Are you sure you have a deductible for liability?

My guess is that the marina and dock owner have gone back and forth trying to get each other to pay, and decided, "Let's see if we can get Brad to pay." Deep down, they must know they're wrong, and would not want to go to court over such a flimsy case.

FWIW, my marina has a track system for cleats. There's a heavy aluminum track along the perimeter of the main and finger docks, and 12" cast aluminum cleats that attach to the tracks with 2 upside down T-bolts (huge ~3/4" threads) that rotate to engage the track, with nuts on top of the cleats. Each slip holder gets 4 of these to place as he pleases, though with >50% vacancy rate, there are lots of extras (I used 8 during Hurricane Irene). It's a great system, though I've never checked to see how the track is attached to the underlying dock.


----------



## Mystic1 (Feb 16, 2012)

Pardon me for playing devils advocate here. My understanding is that this occurred due to no negligence or omission on your part. It seems your vessel was tied to a dock assigned to you by the marina Your vessel didn't sink, thus pulling the cleat... didn't sail away under power or wind, while tied to the dock thus pulling the cleat away. As a matter of fact, it appears your vessel did nothing but sit in the water tied to a dock that was assigned to you, be it a temporary assignment or otherwise, by the marina staff. If you were not present when it happened, and nobody was on board who may have done something to cause the damage, it becomes a question of why did the cleat pull out. If strong winds caused the problem, it's an act of God, and if high winds caused damage only to the dock your boat was tied to, it's an indication that the dock or fittings or both were inferior or degraded. If wake from a passing vessel; caused your boat to pull at the cleat, this is also not your fault, and once again, an indication that the dock and/or dock fittings were inferior or degraded. 

Did you ask the marina staff to explain to you how you or your boat caused the damage? Did your boat do something unexpected of a boat tied to a dock, which may have caused the damage? I assume your boat had been tied to another dock for sometime before and did not cause damage just by virtue of being tied to it. That's what an adequate dock and its hardware are meant to do, and most do the job fine and dandy unless there's something wrong with the dock or hardware to begin with, or perhaps the boat was too heavy for the dock hardware/framing, etc. , and that still would not be your fault, unless you demanded that the marina tie your boat there in spite of their insistence that the dock in question was inadequate for your vessel. 

I cannot understand why you would even consider forking out any money to pay for damages (and go through the trouble of magnet fishing to try to retrieve a cleat), unless there's something we don't know... or you're a really nice guy who likes being taken advantage of.

Just keeping it honest.


----------



## Familycruisers (Dec 15, 2011)

All I'm sayin', is i wouldn't be payin!


----------



## LinekinBayCD (Oct 19, 2009)

Bene505 if you pay anything to the owner of the dock you are crazy. If it was you cleat on the boat that failed yes. But it was their cleat subletted in some fashion to the marina you were paying for a "ship shape" slip. Did your hull get scratched at all? I'd get an estimate for a new Awlgrip job and send it to the marina and dock owner.


----------



## steveg353 (Jun 17, 2008)

I sure hope my marina would never treat me like that. I would have to find a new place to do business with because I would get mad every time I pulled into the parking lot.
Right now, I get very happy every time I pull into the parking lot.


----------



## Mystic1 (Feb 16, 2012)

steveg353 said:


> I sure hope my marina would never treat me like that. I would have to find a new place to do business with because I would get mad every time I pulled into the parking lot.
> Right now, I get very happy every time I pull into the parking lot.


My blood pressure climbs every time I come back to this thread, and it's not my boat!
Must calm down.... happy thoughts... deep breaths.....


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

It just occurred to me that my current marina nickels and dimes for everything. Even so, I am convinced they would never ask me to pay for a cleat that broke under ordinary circumstances. The docks are kept immaculate. If I did something other than just tie to it they might.

Bene, is there something they are claiming you did, other than just tie up?


----------



## Familycruisers (Dec 15, 2011)

Minnewaska said:


> Bene, is there something they are claiming you did, other than just tie up?


Not sure they could claim anything other than owning the boat. He had nothing to do with the tie up (in the thread, many times) as it was after a splash, and done by marina personel.


----------



## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

Well I'm the guy who kept saying chill out and talk with the marina. 

Now it's time to say "Sorry but you guys know me, I've been reasonable, this is NOT my problem and I'm not paying a dime. You work it out with the dock owner. It is not unreasonable to expect a cleat to hold a boat. That's what it's there for."

I would also get back to your insurance company and tell them they need to have someone come out. Their participation will prevent this from escalating into a mechanics lien situation.

FWIW it doesn't sound like the dock is constructed very well. You might also ask the marina if that construction technique would pass an inspection. Not a threat, just an offhand question. Think they'll ask the dock owner the same question? If the dock owner sees this possibly costing him a lot of money he may back off.

Brad, sounds like you've been a nice guy about this. I believe in being reasonable right up until it's time to be unreasonable. Sounds like you might be approaching that point. 

Sorry dude.


----------



## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

I keep the boat where they put it.

The front of the boat was sticking way out, because it's shallow behind the boat. The manager says this put a lot of strain on the cleat. 

Regards,
Brad


----------



## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

OK, so why did they put you there if they thought it was going to put too much strain on the cleat? You followed their instructions.

And it really shouldn't make any difference to the cleat anyway...


----------



## benajah (Mar 28, 2011)

I don't know much about NY law, but I am a Real Estate broker in CA and deal a lot with RE legal issues here.
You said that you didn't have a formal lease with them? Was this just some sort of gentlemen's agreement?
If so, if you have no written agreement stating rights and responsibilites for upkeep of the dock, who is responsible for what, etc, then it becomes a matter of your word agaisnt his and the dock owner as well.
There are lots of different types of lease agreements, some of which require the leasing tenant to perform the upkeep and maintenance of the property. In fact, there really is no limit to the arrangement of lease agreements in much of the US. 
Marinas are Real Estate, with the same sort of ownership and leasing structures as any other sort of RE. 
I don't know what sort of agreement you had with the marina manager, but if you were paying a fee in line with what other slip holders are paying, without a written contract there may be a legal stipulation that would suggest an "implied contract" in which case the lease terms and conditions of the other marina lessees might hold true for you as well, depends on the jurisdiction.
A lot also depends on the lease arrangement between the dock owner, the marina manager, and the marina owner. Their arrangement may be that the dock owner is responsible for maintenance, or that the marina is, or that the marina is limited to the size of boat that can be tied up.

There are a lot of complexites here, but without a written lease arrangement with the marina, it really puts you in a tough position as the middle man.


----------



## benajah (Mar 28, 2011)

JimMcGee said:


> FWIW it doesn't sound like the dock is constructed very well. You might also ask the marina if that construction technique would pass an inspection. Not a threat, just an offhand question. Think they'll ask the dock owner the same question? If the dock owner sees this possibly costing him a lot of money he may back off.
> 
> Sorry dude.


This is a good point. There should be a building permit on file for this dock or construction standards that would be in effect. Even if this is considered in NY personal property, it is an item that affects the public's health and safety, and as such probably has to adhere to certain standards. If it did not adhere to those standards, then that helps make the case that the OP at least cannot be held liable.


----------



## Chadfunk48 (Jun 8, 2006)

Ok, so it sounds like it was the original spot that the Marina put you, but you had used the boat and been putting it back into that spot so you were the last one to tie up? That would be why the Marina owner pointed out that you had the boat sticking out to far which put an excess load on the cleat. So basically He's tell you, "you tied up the boat wrong and broke our cleat." 

I think both of the general options are viable. Either make nice and agree to pay/fix the damages, or give them an ultimatium and say, "Leave me alone, fix your own dock or I'm out." (I'm not even considering gettting a lawyer as an option) The deciding factor would be how much you like being in that marina and how much crap you are will to take... cause that is certainly what they are giving you.


----------



## TheMist (May 2, 2011)

Best of luck on this- Hope to hear the outcome is a good one. We've had similar issues before (Being tied off after being dropped to a dock that the marina didn't own.) It is the marinas responsibility 100% seeing as they had possession / control of your boat at the time of the accident.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Bene505 said:


> I keep the boat where they put it.
> 
> The front of the boat was sticking way out, because it's shallow behind the boat. The manager says this put a lot of strain on the cleat.
> 
> ...


Unless they warned you of this and you said to go ahead anyway, or they didn't want you there for the winter and you convinced them, I see no liability on your part.


----------



## BCC1 (Dec 18, 2011)

Chadfunk48 said:


> Ok, so it sounds like it was the original spot that the Marina put you, but you had used the boat and been putting it back into that spot so you were the last one to tie up? That would be why the Marina owner pointed out that you had the boat sticking out to far which put an excess load on the cleat. So basically He's tell you, "you tied up the boat wrong and broke our cleat."
> 
> I think both of the general options are viable. Either make nice and agree to pay/fix the damages, or give them an ultimatium and say, "Leave me alone, fix your own dock or I'm out." (I'm not even considering gettting a lawyer as an option) The deciding factor would be how much you like being in that marina and how much crap you are will to take... cause that is certainly what they are giving you.


My thoughts too.


----------



## luck66 (Jul 4, 2011)

Sounds to me that the dock owner has a contract with the marine, and you have a contract with the marine. The dock owner should deal with the marine not you. It might be wise to get lawyer advice.


----------



## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Got an e-mail link to this today. Sounds like you need to read you marina policy carefully as some may hold you responsible for dock damage.
BoatUS: Marine Insurance - Policy Information
"Liability for Dock Contracts 
A BoatU.S. Exclusive - If you signed a contract to dock or store your boat, it may hold you liable for personal injury or property damage -- even if you are not at fault. BoatU.S. offers this unique coverage to protect you from these liabilities the contract may require you to take responsibility for."


----------



## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

Follow-up...

My insurance company got all the details from me and asked the dock owner for a repair bill (otherwise they wouldn't know what was actually being claimed). The guy with the dock sent a bill for a ton of hours to move his equipment to the location and do the repairs. His company did the work.

My insurance company paid the bill, minus 10% for depreciation.

Regards,
Brad


----------



## PorFin (Sep 10, 2007)

Bene505 said:


> . The guy with the dock sent a bill for a ton of hours to move his equipment to the location and do the repairs. His company did the work.
> 
> My insurance company paid the bill, minus 10% for depreciation.


And some people wonder why we pay such high insurance rates...

Brad -- glad to hear that the case is closed, and no longer a nagging worry in the back of your mind.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Bene505 said:


> Follow-up...
> 
> My insurance company got all the details from me and asked the dock owner for a repair bill (otherwise they wouldn't know what was actually being claimed). The guy with the dock sent a bill for a ton of hours to move his equipment to the location and do the repairs. His company did the work.
> 
> ...


I'm glad you're past it, but you have their number now. Don't be fooled twice, you are dealing with dishonest people.

Unfortunately, you can expect to have a premium increase next year, based upon the claim. I had a weather damage claim a few years ago, and learned that stuck 10% on my premium the following year. I understand when an insurance company identifies you as a higher risk, based on your behavior, and charges more. Such as a speeding ticket. You are a higher risk than some. However, it really burns me when you collect on random acts that you could not have prevented, which is specifically why you buy insurance, and they reach back to collect their loss.


----------



## AKscooter (Jan 18, 2009)

ah...just love this thread...proves another observation.........They charge outrageous bills to dock your craft, work on them, haul them in and out....yet folks just suck it up and pay for it.....because we "know" they are gonna take care of us boaters..........bwahahahahahahahaa!!!! At least your view is nice.....amirite?


----------



## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

Minnewaska said:


> ...Unfortunately, you can expect to have a premium increase next year, based upon the claim...


I was told that it wouldn't change my premiums.

I think they were initially not going to pay him, but then when they saw the amount, I guess they thought it was too small to make a fuss about.

Regards,
Brad


----------



## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

I expect "his company" was a corporation and a separate legal entity, because last time I dealt with an insurer (auto) and repairs, any labor you put into a repair was NOT reimburseable, it had to be done by an arms-length third party.

Certainly sounds like someone at the insurance company said "just get rid of this".

As Minne said, you know who you're dealing with now. Time to keep an eye out for a different dock.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Bene505 said:


> I was told that it wouldn't change my premiums.
> 
> I think they were initially not going to pay him, but then when they saw the amount, I guess they thought it was too small to make a fuss about.


Maybe the claim has to be a certain amount or percent of value to hit you. Mine was over 20k. Deductibles are usually 1% of boat value too, but I'm not sure if that's the case for liability.

Also, this wasn't volunteered to me originally. My premium actually changed very little the following year. It wasn't until two years later, when I made some changes to coverage that I discovered that my premium should actually have gone down by quite a bit, but was offset by the "claim" increase.


----------



## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

Bene, Glad it's behind you and you can enjoy the sailing season. But it does s#ck when the low lifes win.


----------



## sevseasail (Jan 15, 2007)

Very interesting thread.
Bene, I'm glad it's all behind now.

I'm an insurance adjuster and would have suggested you arranged for the repairs (if liable or if you just wanted to play nice and continue to have a nice relationship with your marina) yourself by hiring someone; it would have cost a couple of hundreds at most. which you will save in premiums over time; trust me, don't believe what your insurance agent says, don't forget he's just a glorified salesman. The insurance company is going to look at you as a higher risk, as you are more likely to file a claim; whether it was your fault or not, and your premiums will go up.

Unfortunately there are plenty of dishonest people that love to make money from insurance claims, and the costs of everything is super inflated when an insurance company is picking up the bill. I see this every day and I can only think how stupid it is because at the end every single one of us has to pay insurance premiums for one or another thing, so driving the price of insurance up does not help anybody.

Again, I'm glad its behind and you can now go sailing and forget all about it.


----------



## dacap06 (Feb 2, 2008)

And now that you are off the hook, it is time to move to a different marina. Otherwise, you can expect more of the same kind of treatment in the future. Further, your greedy marina needs to understand that customer-hostile attitudes chase customers off -- especially when the economy is slow and his customers are hurting as much as he is.


----------

