# Bad yacht accident: two dead (one rescuer)



## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Today, on the Portuguese coast near the entrance of the Figueira da Foz river bar, a German 10m yacht finished on the beach. The maritime police managed to rescue 4 of the five crew members at the cost of the life of one of the rescuers. Two more rescuers were hospitalized as well as 4 from the sailboat crew.

The rescue was attempted by two boats in the middle of 5 meter breakers. One of the rescue boats capsized.

It is not clear what happened but when the rescuers arrived the sailboat had the mast broken and was on the breaking zone.

*Video:*

VIDEO - Dois mortos em naufrágio na Figueira da Foz > TVI24

The mast and sails are still attached to the boat so I guess that they had broke when the boat was rolled on the breakers trying to approach the river bar.

I had my boat in that Marina for some years and I know that several boats,almost all foreigner shipwrecked, trying to enter with bad weather. These are not the first lives lost there.

I cannot understand how someone try to enter that bar with bad weather. It is plain dangerous. Surely they saw the breakers: It was still daylight (17.00).

Probably they didn't wanted to pass the night in the sea with disagreeably weather. The next safe port (for entering at night) is Peniche, 8 or 9 hours away. If that was the case it was a really bad call. If someone goes out with this kind of weather around here should know that he may have to go away from the shore and make many miles till a safe port.

..


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

The boat seems bigger to me:










Certainly a X yacht, probably a 442.

It seems confirmed by local sources: They were trying to enter the river bar...that was closed to boats smaller than 35m.

I read that the mayday was given by another sailboat. Maybe two that were traveling together? One risked while the other watched?

....


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## allio (Jun 25, 2012)

I'm going to go ahead and say it;s these guys

MERI TUULI on Tour

Feel bad for the guys. Does the surf on that beech get bad? Is there a bad rip? from years of surfing I would have thought from the image and video that that beach would have been pretty innocuous even if MOB even in relatively big surf....


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Always sad to see this kind of story, esp if lives are lost.


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

PCP said:


> The rescue was attempted by two boats in the middle of 5 meter breakers. One of the rescue boats capsized.
> 
> It is not clear what happened but when the rescuers arrived the sailboat had the mast broken and was on the breaking zone.


It's never good to hear about yachts being lost whilst running bars and even worse when people die because of it.

Paulo, what I don't understand is, if the boat was in the breaking zone and heading for the beach, *why on earth did two *(not one - but two!) *rescue boats head out in 5 metre breakers to get them?* Apart from "hero" status, what were they hoping to achieve?? Surely all the rescuers needed to do was to wait on the beach and tell the people on board to don lifejackets?? 

Can you explain?



PCP said:


> I cannot understand how someone try to enter that bar with bad weather. It is plain dangerous. Surely they saw the breakers: It was still daylight (17.00).


I can understand how someone might try to enter a bar in bad weather - and I'm sure you can too. It isn't always that easy to see the breakers from the ocean - and people don't like spending the night at sea, even in a modern plastic boat, when all their friends are telling them they should be in harbour for dinner and drinks at the Yacht Club... Staying out at sea is for old wooden boats and salt-encrusted sailors.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

allio said:


> I'm going to go ahead and say it;s these guys
> 
> MERI TUULI on Tour
> 
> Feel bad for the guys. Does the surf on that beech get bad? Is there a bad rip? from years of surfing I would have thought from the image and video that that beach would have been pretty innocuous even if MOB even in relatively big surf....


The problem and waves are not at the beach but on the river bar. The boat was washed to the beach after having being capsized, lost the mast and probably the engine after attempting to pass the river bar.

Believe me, if the bar was closed to boats with less than 35 m the conditions were bad. There are lots of fishermen there, all with smaller boats (than 35m) and they hate not being able to come back home. That is the second closing of the bar. I mean first they close it to boats with less than 11 m and on those conditions I have seen 3m breakers there. Even with the bar closed only to boats smaller than 11m, depending on the tide, it is risky to attempting it with a sailboat with a small engine. That is intended mostly for fishermen boats that had very powerful engines and can pick better the time of crossing and do it a lot more quickly.

One of the problems here is the foreigners feeling that locals are a bit exaggerating when they say the ports are closed, After all the conditions don't look that bad

This is a dangerous coast. Most yacht don't go out on winter and each winter fishermen lose their live along it and they know what they are doing.

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Hartley18 said:


> Paulo, what I don't understand is, if the boat was in the breaking zone and heading for the beach, *why on earth did two *(not one - but two!) *rescue boats head out in 5 metre breakers to get them?* Apart from "hero" status, what were they hoping to achieve?? Surely all the rescuers needed to do was to wait on the beach and tell the people on board to don lifejackets??
> 
> Can you explain?


Do you think people risk their lives in vain? That hero thing mentality is not very common around here. People do what they have to do because they fell they have to do it not because they want to play heroes.

When the mayday was issued the boat was with the mast in the water after being rolled and several, if not all crew was on the water drowning. In fact it was not possible to save one. The mayday was received by two different port authorities that sent there to help what they got, a life boat and a maritime police boat. An helicopter was also deployed.

The Accident was not on the beach but on the river bar that extends well offshore.



Hartley18 said:


> I can understand how someone might try to enter a bar in bad weather - and I'm sure you can too. It isn't always that easy to see the breakers from the ocean - and people don't like spending the night at sea, even in a modern plastic boat, when all their friends are telling them they should be in harbour for dinner and drinks at the Yacht Club... Staying out at sea is for old wooden boats and salt-encrusted sailors.


Well I don't. specially if it is an unknown bar. Maybe because I know that almost every year German, French and British die here trying that stunt.

That bar is marked in all pilot books as dangerous with bad weather. Many times you cannot understand from the distance the danger it represents an unknown bar.

Face to that warning on all pilot books the thing to do is to call the Port captaincy and ask for advise. They would be told that the bar was closed to boats with less than 35m. If they insisted they would have been advised that if they tried they would face a legal law suit. They would be advised to stay well offshore and to proceed North or South, to Peniche, Nazaré or Leixões where the Ports remain open.

Because of the stupidity or lack of seamanship of the sailboat crew a rescuer died will trying to save their lives. I believe someone that is out there in bad weather should know what he is doing. Obviously these guys didn't. I find that unacceptable since they are putting other lives at risk...and for what? For not having to endure a disagreeable night at sea and I say disagreeable because with that boat in the conditions out there that was just what it would be, a cold rainy disagreeable night, not a dangerous one.

Regards

Paulo


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

PCP said:


> ....


The most striking thing to me about that photo, is the extent to which the deck has been so entirely and cleanly stripped of gear... There remains not so much of a _HINT_ that the boat ever had a bow or stern rail, stanchions/lifelines, etc... Amazing that the wheel is still in place, the violence of what occurred must have been incredible...

Seems a small miracle, that more lives were not lost...


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Many times the boat at sea cannot access the real ferocity of the wave action in a river bar/ inlet until they are well in it. The angle of approach doesn't show the true danger as what you will see from the shore.

These river bars are no joke, even when handled by boats with lots of power let alone a sailboat with an auxiliary engine.

Sad to see the loss of life.

Dave



Paulo is correct, if the locals closed it why risk it. Stay away from shore. Time and time again we see that's how people get in real trouble. They may get beat up a little staying in deeper water, but the need to get back to shore is what puts them in jeopardy and costs them and their boat


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

I did a quick Google and it looks like this boat was some kind of charter operation (pardon the translation from German):



> This yacht, we offer training, cruises and regattas take part in the premium market! From exercising the harbor maneuvers, skipper training, driving instruction on sports travel trips to the Atlantic Regatta is our MERI Tuuli inside everything. We prove the MERI Tuuli max.6 with paying passengers plus 1 or 2 Skipper inside.


Might explain the pressure to get into port if the paying passengers were upset.

Rough outcome for sure. Kudos to the rescuers.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

smackdaddy said:


> I did a quick Google and it looks like this boat was some kind of charter operation (pardon the translation from German):
> 
> *This yacht, we offer training, cruises and regattas take part in the premium market! From exercising the harbor maneuvers, skipper training, driving instruction on sports travel trips to the Atlantic Regatta is our MERI Tuuli inside everything. We prove the MERI Tuuli max.6 with paying passengers plus 1 or 2 Skipper inside.*
> 
> ...


Smack, tears come to my eyes when I saw your post and had nothing to do with the post. You don't imagine how good for me it is seeing you back!!!

Yes I believe you are right. Unfortunately many of this accidents have to do with the pressure of the passengers or inexperienced crew over the Captain, assuming the Captain knew what he was doing. On these democratic days it is not easy or popular to act like a dictator and when everybody says to do the wrong thing it is hard to do the right thing against everybody specially if they are paying. I am not saying that it happened here, but it would not be the first time.

a big hug to you.

Paulo


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## sww914 (Oct 25, 2008)

Where I'm from, Morro Bay,we have a dangerous harbor entrance. Let's say that the biggest sets of waves are twenty feet. The smaller sets will be eight or ten feet. The eight or ten foot sets won't break across the harbor entrance because of the depth but the twenty footers will break all the way across. The big sets may be 15-30 minutes apart. You're approaching the entrance and you do the prudent thing, sit and watch for awhile. You sit there for 10, 15, 20 minutes and you don't see anything and you decide to go for it. Just then a big set comes along, rolling in at 20-30 knots. Your boat will only do seven or eight so you can't just follow a big one in and know that the one behind it won't catch you because it will. You get pounded.
Now I've been pounded by a 25 foot wave while surfing. Not much on your sailboat will survive and you will be slammed into hard things repeatedly. You'd be lucky to be thrown from the boat but then you're in twenty foot surf. If you don't know what to do or if you're hurt, you're dead.
That's why the bar is closed and that's why big fast power boats can make it and you can't, unless you're lucky.
How lucky are you?


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

PCP said:


> Smack, tears come to my eyes when I saw your post and had nothing to do with the post. You don't imagine how good for me it is seeing you back!!!
> 
> Yes I believe you are right. Unfortunately many of this accidents have to do with the pressure of the passengers or inexperienced crew over the Captain, assuming the Captain knew what he was doing. On these democratic days it is not easy or popular to act like a dictator and when everybody says to do the wrong thing it is hard to do the right thing against everybody specially if they are paying. I am not saying that it happened here, but it would not be the first time.
> 
> ...


Thanks Paulo. It's good to be back around. This place makes me happy - precisely because of cool people like you. I appreciate the hug, but let's not hold it too long. People will talk.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

If the boat was not sinking, would it not have been better for them to stay on the boat, inside the cabin, waiting for it to settle down on the bar?


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

> If the boat was not sinking, would it not have been better for them to stay on the boat, inside the cabin, waiting for it to settle down on the bar?


Hindsight is 20/20. Probably if they actually understood what the conditions where on the bar, they would have been willing to wait for days on the open ocean. I would imagine most boaters figure there will be a few minutes of excitement, then they will be home...

So then, how do you differentiate between what looks like it might be a wild ride, and something that is really dangerous?


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Barquito said:


> Hindsight is 20/20. Probably if they actually understood what the conditions where on the bar, they would have been willing to wait for days on the open ocean. I would imagine most boaters figure there will be a few minutes of excitement, then they will be home...
> 
> So then, how do you differentiate between what looks like it might be a wild ride, and something that is really dangerous?


Well, there's this often under-appreciated thing known as _'Experience'_, that can often help one make such a decision.... (grin)

However, in this particular case, the fact that the bar had been closed by the port captain or coast guard, should have provided a pretty strong 'hint'...

It's been repeated here, and elsewhere, many times over - but it remains the most succinct and clear way of putting it:

_"When is doubt, stay out..."_


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Barquito said:


> Hindsight is 20/20. Probably if they actually understood what the conditions where on the bar, they would have been willing to wait for days on the open ocean. I would imagine most boaters figure there will be a few minutes of excitement, then they will be home...
> 
> So then, how do you differentiate between what looks like it might be a wild ride, and something that is really dangerous?


If it is the entrance of a bar with a port or marina inside, you ask to the port authorities what are the conditions and their advise. In this case they would have told them that the port was closed for anything smaller than a 100ft boat and would have indicated the next safe harbors.

Regards

Paulo


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Barquito said:


> Hindsight is 20/20. Probably if they actually understood what the conditions where on the bar, they would have been willing to wait for days on the open ocean. I would imagine most boaters figure there will be a few minutes of excitement, then they will be home...


I was actually thinking about their decision to abandon the ship when they realized their boat was running aground. At least that is what I think they did - decided to get off when their boat got mauled by the surf.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

I don't think so. The reports said that there were some in the boat (2) and some in the water (3). I believe they were thrown to the water when the boat capsized and that was not near the beach but at the river bar.

Here you have the bar and the the beach. That is with nice weather:










With bad weather it is like this:










From far away it doesn't look too bad:


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

We were off the Columbia Bar once (another infamous spot) during benign conditions and the USCG would only advise of conditions, not whether to attempt it or not. That was left to us to decide based on the description of the current conditions. I don't know if the USCG would actually issue a 'closed' edict wrt to the bar.. perhaps others more local would know.










I commend the Portuguese port authorities for that action (ie 'closing' the entrance to certain vessels) and would certainly expect that one would defy such warnings at your peril, obviously...


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Thanks for the pictures and explanation, PCP. That makes more sense. 
Yes, I can see how one could misjudge the difficulty of getting into the harbor under those conditions.


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## carl762 (Jan 11, 2010)

Damned shame. 

Good to see you back aboard, Smack!!!!


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## troy2000 (Apr 7, 2013)

Hartley18 said:


> It's never good to hear about yachts being lost whilst running bars and even worse when people die because of it.
> 
> Paulo, what I don't understand is, if the boat was in the breaking zone and heading for the beach, *why on earth did two *(not one - but two!) *rescue boats head out in 5 metre breakers to get them?* Apart from "hero" status, what were they hoping to achieve?? Surely all the rescuers needed to do was to wait on the beach and tell the people on board to don lifejackets??
> 
> ...


Why did rescuers head out in those conditions? Because that's what they do; they rescue people. I doubt that trying to be a 'hero' ever crossed their minds. My hat is off to them....

You're also glossing over the fact that apparently three of the five people from the boat were in the water, probably from the initial capsize. So telling everyone to don PDF's and stay on board would have been like closing the barn door after the horses were out.


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

troy2000 said:


> Why did rescuers head out in those conditions? Because that's what they do; they rescue people. I doubt that trying to be a 'hero' ever crossed their minds. My hat is off to them....
> 
> You're also glossing over the fact that apparently three of the five people from the boat were in the water, probably from the initial capsize. So telling everyone to don PDF's and stay on board would have been like closing the barn door after the horses were out.


We have dangerous bars here: the main one into our harbour isn't officially named "The Rip" for nothing - heck, we even have dangerous mooring areas (below is a picture of the one at Mornington in a storm) - so I'm not glossing over anything:










Whilst it's tragic that the yacht capsized and that some of the crew drowned, what I don't understand is the rescuers sending *two* boats out into conditions where one of their own people died to save people off a yacht that crossed a *closed* bar against the advice of the same authorities... Especially if the yacht is headed toward a sandy beach (not rocks) where the yacht is in no danger of breaking up and immediate help is at hand.

If that happened over here, there would be a major coronial inquest and people in authority would be reprimanded for mis-managing the situation!   I can only assume (from the other side of the world and based solely on Paulo's posts) that the rescue authorities mis-judged how bad the conditions were.

AIUI, in serious wave conditions it is not a good idea to send out more than one rescue boat since (a) there is a high risk of collision between rescue boats whilst at the scene and (b) you are putting more lives at risk.

Hopefully, in time, we will be told what* really *happened out there...


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Hartley18 said:


> ...
> 
> Whilst it's tragic that the yacht capsized and that some of the crew drowned, what I don't understand is the rescuers sending *two* boats out into conditions where one of their own people died to save people off a yacht that crossed a *closed* bar against the advice of the same authorities... Especially if the yacht is headed toward a sandy beach (not rocks) where the yacht is in no danger of breaking up and immediate help is at hand.
> 
> ...


Hartley, you are not making much sense. We know what happened there. there is witnesses and the report of the rescuers. On that movie a witness described the accident.

Again, the accident was not near the beach but on the river bar that is far away. The boat did not cross the bar. It was capsized at the bar. There were people on the water trying to survive. They sent what they had available. Two boats can retrieve more quickly several persons from the water and from the sailing boat than one alone. That comment regarding to be dangerous to send two boats because they can collide makes no sense.

One was a big and powerful semi-rigid (the one that capsized) the other a coastal lifeboat also a powerful relatively small boat, both easy to steer. For your information the boats did not collided. When one was retrieving the people on the water (the lifeboat) the semi-rigid was trying to rescue the ones that were in the sailingboat. That was the one that capsized when trying to get alongside to the sailboat.

I don't understand your comment saying that it would be better to let let the sailors on the boat and wait for the boat be washed ashore, several hundreds of meters away just because it was a sand beach. Even retrieving them sooner some were already in really bad shape needing to be hospitalized (two with multiple fractures are in a grave condition). You don't know if the boat would capsize again on the breakers and what would have happened to the ones aboard.

I don't understand also the comment regarding authorities misjudging how bad the conditions were. The bar was closed, they new the conditions were bad that it would be a risky operation...so what? There were lives at risk, should they don't try to save them because it was dangerous? Only the thought is insulting. Around here we don't act that way. When there are lives at risk they try to save them disregarding their own safety. Your comments are even more unfortunate since one of the rescuers died trying to save the lives of the crew.

*"people in authority would be reprimanded for mis-managing the situation!" *

Really?

on this video we can see better the sea conditions:


Regards

Paulo


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

PCP said:


> Hartley, you are not making much sense. We know what happened there. there is witnesses and the report of the rescuers. On that movie a witness described the accident.


Paulo, I didn't see the movie and do not speak Portugese - thank you for filling in the details. I had the impression from reading the posts here that the accident happened during the crossing of a closed bar to get into harbour before dark. If the boat was in trouble *before* they crossed the bar a long way from the harbour entrance, I can understand why the rescuers took the action they did. I misunderstood what happened... my bad. 

Thank you for answering my original question about why they sent two boats. I certainly have never intended to imply the rescuers did anything wrong in this case, *I am simply trying to understand why one of the rescuers died*. As I said, if something like that happened over here there would be a major enquiry into the management of the incident to understand what went wrong. Perhaps the RIB was not a suitable rescue vessel for the conditions?!? I do not know..

I assume the sea conditions were a lot worse at the time of the accident because they do not seem dangerous to me - I have seen worse. If you never get conditions that are considered too dangerous to life to send rescue teams as soon as they are called you are very fortunate indeed.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Yes, that rib was not the most appropriated but that was what they had available.

Portugal is in a deep of very difficult economic problems that are being addressed but that involve huge cuts to everybody, mostly in what regards state costs. With those costs the life guard service has not money to be run as before and they only pay their workers from 9h till 17.30h. They do what they have to do at any our without being paid. The cuts also involved the impossibility to assure what they consider a proper service so the navy is helping with the equipment they have and they don't have adequate equipment for rescue.

That RIB, the one that capsized was a navy boat with sailors not specifically trained for rescue. They didn't have even life saving suits. If they had then probably that sailor would not be dead. They all come to help and have done the best they could for some sailors that were doing the wrong thing and that could be safe sailing offshore.

This starts to be a problem, I mean sailors doing things without knowing how to them and then ask for help:

Yesterday the life boat from Peniche went out to respond to a mayday. The time as disagreeable but not threatening and today is a nice day. The saillboat in question had 9/10m and had a engine problem. I saw photos of the boat and its sails were intact and apparently without any problem. The conditions permitted the life saving boat to tow them to Port. Why the hell did they not sail to Port? Probably another ones that did not want to pass a disagreeable night at sea

Regards

Paulo


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

krisscross said:


> If the boat was not sinking, would it not have been better for them to stay on the boat, inside the cabin, waiting for it to settle down on the bar?


Hmm not seen the conditions when you get breaking waves on a bar then I guess.

Watch this 




then you decide if you think staying inside a cabin would be a viable option.

BTW I have cruised that coast and been in Figueira da Foz when they closed the entrance. It looks pretty serious from the land side but little of the violence is visible from the sea.


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## kjretlaw (Jun 22, 2010)

This is from Time Badit on Sailblogs

Moving North | Time Bandit

He was just behind the German boat.

Moving North
12/04/2013, Baiona

Peniche to ????

We woke in Peniche to the deep bass Boooom of the swell crashing onto the harbour walls. Overnight, the swell had grown larger and was perhaps 3-4 metres high. Long rollers, seemingly inocuous until the reach the shallow water where they build into fearsome breakers.

The original plan was to depart Peniche bright and early heading for Figueira da Foz.

Our German neighbours who have been following us up the coast for a few days beat us to it leaving ahead of us which was good as we could see the harbour exit was OK.

Once again we had a decent sail with the wind at 15 ish right behind us. Time Bandit sails well dead downwind, goosewinged and we made good time.

However, all through the day I had been thinking about the ever increasing swell and how it would affect the entry to Figuiera. The dominant wind on the Portuguese coast is northerly. Consequently, the Atlantic coast marinas and harbours in Portugal are open to the west and south. When there's a big swell, the harbours become "no-go" zones. Three years ago a British yacht was rolled in the surf trying to enter when conditions weren't right. Two died so our attention was held for our entry.

As we approached the harbour, the comers were building in height as they rushed shorewards, trailing a head of spume as the hit shallower water.

The German boat headed on in but we were a bit doubtful. In fact, very doubtful. The cones saying whether the entry was safe or not weren't visible as we made our approach so we called the harbour master who said "Harbour closed. Too dangerous".

Our concerns confirmed, we turned around and headed out for a night at sea.

Five minutes later as I glanced back I saw a parachute flare descending in the harbour area. There was no traffic on the radio so we called in a Mayday, somewhat concerned it was the German boat in trouble. We haven't seen or heard anything so hope they're ok. Sharpens the mind though.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

A little more on the dead sailor taken from a local newspaper.

His monthly wage was £800 and his widow gets a pension of £267 a month.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

kjretlaw said:


> ....
> However, all through the day I had been thinking about the ever increasing swell and how it would affect the entry to Figuiera. The dominant wind on the Portuguese coast is northerly. Consequently, the Atlantic coast marinas and harbours in Portugal are open to the west and south. When there's a big swell, the harbours become "no-go" zones. Three years ago a British yacht was rolled in the surf trying to enter when conditions weren't right. Two died so our attention was held for our entry.
> 
> As we approached the harbour, the comers were building in height as they rushed shorewards, trailing a head of spume as the hit shallower water.
> ...


Thanks for having posted it. That confirms that the mayday comes from another sailing boat and one that acted like everybody should act in a bar with a doubtful entrance: Calling the port authorities and ask for advice.

As I have said in any pilot book it is said that the bar in Figueira da Foz is a dangerous one with bad weather. Regarding Peniche only in extreme weather the Port is closed, kind of 30, 33ft waves. It is possible to enter or going out even in stormy weather. With bad weather coming out of Peniche and going North the next good Port (bedsides Nazaré that is at only 25nm) is Matosinhos at about 120nm from Peniche. Even Porto with really bad weather can be dangerous.

and they say also (the other boat):

*"A long wet, windy and wild night ensued. We had F6 -F8 all night, mostly accompanied by monsoon strength rain. The good news was we just battered along doing minimum 8knots, steady around 9 and hitting 10 at times. All GPS over the ground speed so genuinely fast. As opposed to our over reading boat speed log.

9am saw us tucked up in Baiona, Spain,now poised for a last hop up the coast or our dash across Biscay to somewhere on Southern Ireland. "*

And that confirms what I had said, a disagreeable night on the sea but not a dangerous one for a boat like a X 442. People died because someone has taken risks just to pass a more comfortable night aboard.

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

TQA said:


> A little more on the dead sailor taken from a local newspaper.
> 
> His monthly wage was £800 and his widow gets a pension of £267 a month.


That is a bit worse and better than that: it is 800 euros not pounds. The wife only receives that because the rest is for the two children (monthly they will receive 80% of 800 euros). She will receive also a compensation of about 200/250 times X the value of his husband wage (800 euros).

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

I found out a complete description of the accident on a German site (from the charter/sailing school company). It turned out that when the Rib capsized all crew was already rescued and they were trying to save the sailboat towing it. The best intention, I am sure, but now it seems not the best idea and it was probably too risky:

Translation:

*"On the afternoon of 10.04. the yacht Meri Tuuli (13.50 meters long, type X-442) sailing with a SW force 4/5 was surprised by a wave and capsized while trying to enter the bar of Figueira da Foz with the intention to reach Port.

All five crew members were washed out of the boat. All crew was wearing life jackets. The skipper was able to come back on board and called by help sending distress rockets.

Two Portuguese rescue vessels left harbor immediately and together with the skipper, they coordinated the rescue of the crew. After all crew members were rescued, the skipper prepared a towing connection for the Meri Tuuli.

At that moment due to a particularly high wave one of the lifeboats was capsized. The towing operation was canceled and the only remained lifeboat tried to rescue the crew from the capsized lifeboat as well as the members of the yacht crew that were aboard.

Due to the capsize of the lifeboat, a Portuguese police officer and one of our crew members did not survive. A crew member is injured but out of danger and is still being treated in an hospital in Portugal.

Our executive Skipper is a longtime, experienced, safety-conscious employee and colleague. He has a lot more skills than required for such commercially operating yacht licenses. ....

The Ports on the Portuguese west coast are generally considered difficult to enter. This situation was known by the Skipper but after weighing all the circumstances and giving the prevailing conditions decided to enter.

The yacht was en route from Lisbon to Porto, with Figueira da Foz harbor as a stop over. In Porto, a crew change would takes place.

The accident is currently being investigated by the competent authorities and we assure them all the support that is needed to arrive at a final assessment of the accident.

In parallel, we also conduct our own investigation and will inform the public of the outcome in due course."

......

For the Nordtoern-well Sailing GbR
Richard Jeske & Thomas Dühren*

Well-Sailing: Aktuelles

Funny how they fail to mention that the Port and the river bar were closed to boats with less than 35m

...


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## Tourbionnee (Apr 14, 2013)

True, and somehow they forgot to mention that he was trying his appoach nearly 2 hours after highwater. 

PCP's translation of the statement reads "... The Ports on the Portuguese west coast are generally considered difficult to enter. This situation was known by the Skipper but after weighing all the circumstances and giving the prevailing conditions decided to enter. ... "

Trouble is you can nicely watch the breakers from the beach, but coming from the sea you only notice the "presumably harmless" back of them. The coast itself is quite regular which doesn't really help, and, after several hours out in a bit of a lumpy sea you don't notice any more how bad it really is. Till you arrive at the point of no return, and then it is too late. 

We had lots of rainfall the last weeks, the rivers are full of water with strong currents, it must have been Hell around Figueira! 

Nazare, one of the few ports you can enter in almost any conditions and which lies about 25 NM to the south of Figueira da Foz, was full of fishing-boats from Figueiras da Foz on Wednesday when the accident happened. Because the harbour was closed, and because they wouldn't dare to enter FF in these conditions.

What can we do to make sailors more aware about the dangers of the Portugese coast???????


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## Tourbionnee (Apr 14, 2013)

Somehow I was convinced they were supposed to have NAVTEX onboard, well, I must haven been mistaken:

@ 09th of April 2002 UTC:
Navigational warning

RA84
MONSANTORADIO
092002 UTC APR 13
NAV. WARNING NR 834/13

PORTUGAL-CONTINENTAL PORTUGAL-
WEST COAST-FIGUEIRA DA FOZ
HARBOUR ENTRANCE CLOSED TO
VESSELS UNDER 11 METERS LENGTH
NNNN 

@ 09th April 2119 UTC:
Navigational warning

RA85
MONSANTORADIO
092119 UTC APR 13
NAV. WARNING NR 835/13

PORTUGAL-CONTINENTAL PORTUGAL-
WEST COAST-FIGUEIRA DA FOZ
HARBOUR ENTRANCE CLOSED TO
VESSELS UNDER 35 METERS LENGTH
NAVIGATIONAL WARNING NR 834/13
CANCELLED
NNNN


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Tourbionnee said:


> ..
> PCP's translation of the statement reads "... *The Ports on the Portuguese west coast are generally considered difficult to enter.* "..
> ....
> Nazare, one of the few ports you can enter in almost any conditions and which lies about 25 NM to the south of Figueira da Foz, was full of fishing-boats from Figueiras da Foz on Wednesday when the accident happened. Because the harbour was closed, and because they wouldn't dare to enter FF in these conditions.
> ...


I don't know. Fact is that I can recall one one accident with a Portuguese sailing boat and many with foreign boats. I guess that we have more confidence on the information that is provided by the authorities in what regards closed ports, information that is disregarded by sailors from other countries that seem to think we are too careful.

This one happened 2 years ago on Vila do Conde, a Port North of Figueira. the port was also closed. If I can recall correctly they were warned not to try to enter. There were three experienced sailors aboard...



only one survived. Two died there.

It is said that the Ports on the west coast of Portugal are difficult to enter but it should be said *some ports* because others are open in bad weather and only closed in extreme weather the kind that cannot be sustained by a small sailboat near the coast anyway. As I had said Nazaré is open with pretty bad weather even if it is better only to enter in day time and asking for directions, Peniche, Leixões (Marina de Leça), Lisboa (Cascais) Setubal (Sesimbra) and Sines are open with bad weather so it is not really a bad situation. You have just to be prepared to pass a night on the sea since in some cases it will not be possible to cover the distance between them during the day.

Typically the Ports that close with bad weather and by that order are Caminha, Vila Praia de Âncora, São Martinho do Porto, Porto, Figueira da Foz, Póvoa de Varzim, Vila do Conde, Viana do Castelo and Aveiro.

Regards

Paulo


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

It has been interesting to read about what happened here. Very sad indeed for the rescuers and their families who are doing the best they can with what they have.



Tourbionnee said:


> What can we do to make sailors more aware about the dangers of the Portugese coast???????


It's not just the Portugese coast.. all over the world sailors get in trouble trying to enter closed harbours, or simply finding themselves on a lee shore in an "unforecast" gale.

Over here, lately, the weather forecasts have become so unreliable and change so quickly it is difficult to plan a nice day out on the water - but many go out anyway and most do not get into trouble...

Perhaps some sailors now put so much trust in the ability of their yachts and the accuracy of weather forecasts that they are willing to take risks they shouldn't?? From information posted here already it sounds like the skipper of "Meri Tuuli" was experienced and should have known better.

I think it would help if regularly-updated Pilot books, especially for "sailing vessels", were made freely available by governments at least for popular coastlines - but I cannot see that happening anytime soon. Not over here anyways.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Hartley18 said:


> ...
> I think it would help if regularly-updated Pilot books, especially for "sailing vessels", were made freely available by governments at least for popular coastlines - but I cannot see that happening anytime soon. Not over here anyways.


Hartley, there are actualized pilot books of this coast. This one is hugely known and I would say that everybody that passes here have one. They are actualized regularly but even on the older editions it is said clearly that one should only enter the Bar of Figueira da Foz with good weather and a special warning is made that is a dangerous bar with not settled weather.

Atlantic Spain & Portugal: Amazon.co.uk: RCC Pilotage Foundation: [email protected]@[email protected]@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/[email protected]@[email protected]@51rQuOvG6-L

Regards

Paulo


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

PCP said:


> Hartley, there are actualized pilot books of this coast. This one is hugely known and I would say that everybody that passes here have one. They are actualized regularly but even on the older editions it is said clearly that one should only enter the Bar of Figueira da Foz with good weather and a special warning is made that is a dangerous bar with not settled weather.


Ok.. At least something exists for you I guess. I presume the "Meri Tuuli" had a copy on board? IMHO, GBP42.50 is a bit steep for a single stretch of coastline, especially if it is only valid for a year or so. Everyone has a copy? Wow!! Presuming that somebody cruising that part of the globe would also need something for Northern Europe, UK and the Med, plus charts, that's a significant amount of money to spend every year or so.

Back in the "old days" the Admiralty used to issue volumes of pilot books for for all parts of the world. I believe they still do but they're now more applicable to container ships, not small yachts. Personally, I wish something was available electronically at low cost, in the same way charting software is, but the cost of developing and maintaining such a beast up to date would be tremendous.

I actually think there is less up-to-date information readily available now to the coastal cruiser in many places than there was last century. That's certainly the case for my part of the world.


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

Hartley18 said:


> ...
> 
> I think it would help if regularly-updated Pilot books, especially for "sailing vessels", were made freely available by governments at least for popular coastlines - but I cannot see that happening anytime soon. Not over here anyways.


Pilot books, as well as charts etc are freely (meaning no charge) available from NOAA for whatever areas they cover. And that is how it should be. Obviously, this is very USA-centric.

Perhaps sailors and mariners in other countries should try to get their governments to adopt a similar model. We would all gain from it.


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> Pilot books, as well as charts etc are freely (meaning no charge) available from NOAA for whatever areas they cover. And that is how it should be. Obviously, this is very USA-centric.
> 
> Perhaps sailors and mariners in other countries should try to get their governments to adopt a similar model. We would all gain from it.


Very true indeed!


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> Pilot books, as well as charts etc are freely (meaning no charge) available from NOAA for whatever areas they cover. And that is how it should be. Obviously, this is very USA-centric.
> 
> Perhaps sailors and mariners in other countries should try to get their governments to adopt a similar model. We would all gain from it.


SAILING DIRECTIONS (ENROUTE) are available from the NGA for the entire world, as free downloads:

Maritime Safety Information










All the Pilot Books in the world wouldn't have made any difference in this incident, of course... Nor with RULE 62, or the delivery crew rescued off Hatteras last month, nor countless other examples of poor judgment/seamanship born of an overwhelming desire to simply get off the damn boat, and avoid any further discomfort...


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

JonEisberg said:


> SAILING DIRECTIONS (ENROUTE) are available from the NGA for the entire world, as free downloads:


I didn't know that, and I'm sure there are many, many other folks out there that don't either. Thanks Jon! 



JonEisberg said:


> All the Pilot Books in the world wouldn't have made any difference in this incident, of course... Nor with RULE 62, or the delivery crew rescued off Hatteras last month, nor countless other examples of poor judgment/seamanship born of an overwhelming desire to simply get off the damn boat, and avoid any further discomfort...


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## divefreak (Apr 15, 2013)

PCP said:


> Yesterday the life boat from Peniche went out to respond to a mayday. The time as disagreeable but not threatening and today is a nice day. The saillboat in question had 9/10m and had a engine problem. I saw photos of the boat and its sails were intact and apparently without any problem. The conditions permitted the life saving boat to tow them to Port. Why the hell did they not sail to Port? Probably another ones that did not want to pass a disagreeable night at sea


I operate a tow boat buisness in the baltic

80% of our tows are Sailboats with some Kind of engine trouble, but intact sails...

René


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Hartley18 said:


> Ok.. At least something exists for you I guess. I presume the "Meri Tuuli" had a copy on board? IMHO, GBP42.50 is a bit steep for a single stretch of coastline, especially if it is only valid for a year or so. Everyone has a copy? Wow!! Presuming that somebody cruising that part of the globe would also need something for Northern Europe, UK and the Med, plus charts, that's a significant amount of money to spend every year or so.
> 
> .....


Around here there is so much to see that a cruiser remains probably around the stretch of a coast covered by a book for a year so. So in fact you need one book each year assuming you don't stay several years around the same cruising ground.

For instance , last year I cruised for 3 months, coming back from Trieste (North of Italy) I have done the coast of Slovenia, Croatia (where a year is not enough to explore their 2000 Islands), and Adriatic Italy. All this comes in one book alone.

This year I intend to cruise Greece and their hundreds of Islands and all that comes in another book, one that I am using on the last two months to prepare the voyage (475 pages). cruising is expensive as it is expensive to having a cruising boat. 50 euros a year for a pilot book is nothing and that's way everybody has them (figuratively speaking).

When I say everyone has them I am talking about practical experience and exchanging talks with crews of boats passing these waters. They are not actualized annually (the one that you buy now is the 6th edition) but even older have much of the information correct and in what regards Figueira da Foz conditions did not change on the last 15 years or so.

I have about 6 or 7 of those pilot books and more went on my previous boat when I sold it. The stretch of coast is not small (All Atlantic Portugal and Spain) and it is a big book with a very detailed information about everything you can imagine, including anchorages and nice places to stop, meteorology and so on. My wife would refuse to sail without one because I stay in anchor almost all the time and she wants assurances that it is a safe place (and some that look like are not)

They are not expensive for the information they provide and the money you can save with them. The price is the average price of a marina in Europe and those books have all information you need to find all the places where you can anchor safely. One night at anchor will pay the book.

Imray nautical charts and nautical books from Imray, Admiralty Charts and pilots for sailing navigation from Imray, Laurie, Norie & Wilson Ltd www.imray.com

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

divefreak said:


> I operate a tow boat buisness in the baltic
> 
> 80% of our tows are Sailboats with some Kind of engine trouble, but intact sails...
> 
> René


Well, welcome to sailnet

Regards

Paulo


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## divefreak (Apr 15, 2013)

One Question

did the police boat capsize on the way back to the harbor or while making the safety/standby boat while the lifeboat tried to establish the tow?

Ok A Second one.... what were they thinking 3 or 4 h after high tie trying to tow the 44 footer with an 8 or 9m Rib? Next good time slot was at least 14h away.... The X was already a CTL at this point


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

JonEisberg said:


> SAILING DIRECTIONS (ENROUTE) are available from the NGA for the entire world, as free downloads:
> 
> Maritime Safety Information
> 
> ...


Jon what is given for free from the NGA is a pilot book intended for ships, not a cruising guide. It is nice to have it for free and it has valuable information. All that information is om a pilot book for cruisers along with much more information that is needed and valuable to a small Yacht. Ports, marinas and anchorages that are suitable for a small cruising boat has nothing to do with the ones that are suitable for a ship, even a small one.

What is covered in 20 pages on that book is covered on 400 pages on a pilot book for cruising boats. That's about the difference in the scope of the information.

Regarding cruising boats "World Cruising and Sailing Wiki - A Free Cruising Guide" has more valuable information, also for free. Most of them is taken from those cruising guides, many times with the same words, other is posted by cruisers.

World Cruising and Sailing Wiki - a Cruising Guide on the World Cruising and Sailing Wiki

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

divefreak said:


> One Question
> 
> did the police boat capsize on the way back to the harbor or while making the safety/standby boat while the lifeboat tried to establish the tow?
> 
> Ok A Second one.... what were they thinking 3 or 4 h after high tie trying to tow the 44 footer with an 8 or 9m Rib? Next good time slot was at least 14h away.... The X was already a CTL at this point


They capsized after having rescued some of the crew (the others were on the other life saving boat) while attempting to establish a tow.

Yes, I guess you are right about the second one. that's what you get when you put well intentioned amateurs (they were Navy but without training in rescues, only the other boat had a professional crew) doing the job of professionals. Probably the skipper asked them to try to save the boat towing it to deeper water where the boat could stay on anchor and they didn't want to look like they didn't care at least without attempting it.

I guess this makes the so called experienced skipper look even worse. it's first concern should be to have his crew safe, not having it exposed to more danger while they tried a dangerous tow operation to save the boat. The woman that died (sailboat crew) and the navy operator were inside the RIB that was attempting to tow the sailing-boat.

Regards

Paulo


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## divefreak (Apr 15, 2013)

PCP said:


> They capsized after having rescued some of the crew (the others were on the other life saving boat) while attempting to establish a tow.


Ok, so the capsized police boat tried to establish the tow. Right?

I´ve searched the net to get some pics of the setup of the two RIbs involved.

So far it looks as if none had a real tow post or was in other means setup up for towing in a safe manner...

btw I don´t want to looks as a smart ass here, just trying to find infos what happened for educational purposes.

Did my fair share of thumb things as a lifeguard too


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

PCP said:


> Jon what is given for free from the NGA is a pilot book intended for ships, not a cruising guide. It is nice to have it for free and it has valuable information. All that information is om a pilot book for cruisers along with much more information that is needed and valuable to a small Yacht. Ports, marinas and anchorages that are suitable for a small cruising boat has nothing to do with the ones that are suitable for a ship, even a small one.
> 
> What is covered in 20 pages on that book is covered on 400 pages on a pilot book for cruising boats. That's about the difference in the scope of the information.
> 
> ...


No, of course they are not a substitute for a true cruising guide, I wasn't trying to suggest that...

However, for places off the beaten track, these volumes can still be surprisingly useful... the Sailing Directions for Greenland, for example, seems practically the equal of Willy Ker's Imray/RCC Pilot... I've been browsing through mine for Labrador lately, there's still a wealth of information there for a small boat sailor that might not be readily available elsewhere - especially at that price... (grin)


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

divefreak said:


> Ok, so the capsized police boat tried to establish the tow. Right?
> 
> I´ve searched the net to get some pics of the setup of the two RIbs involved.
> 
> ...


No, the RIB was a standard Maritime police rib. The guys did not even had life-vests. If they had probably that Navy police will be still alive.

They were trying to do that at the Portuguese way, "desenracando-se" as well as they could. O desenrascanço is a true institution on the Portuguese culture and means an wild improvisation

We are quite good at that, we have centuries of years of experience mostly because one way or another had never the means to do things in a more conventional way but that was never an obstacle to go on. Well, sometimes it does nor work and it seems it was the case

I don't know how they were going to try to do it, or if they head any chances of success because they did not reach that point. The Police boat was cached by a big have when it was circling the sailboat trying to put themselves in position. The boat pitch poled.

Regards

Paulo


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## divefreak (Apr 15, 2013)

PCP said:


> They were trying to do that at the Portuguese way, "desenracando-se" as well as they could. O desenrascanço is a true institution on the Portuguese culture and means an wild improvisation


Ok I know what you´re talking about

I was at Beja in 98 during Strong Resolve



PCP said:


> The Police boat was cached by a big have when it was circling the sailboat trying to put themselves in position. The boat pitch poled.


Thanks forthe Info Paolo!


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

Just to prove bar crossing incidents in bad weather aren't restricted to Portugal - in today's news:

Australian River Bar yacht drama: five beached including rescuers

..but I can guarantee you the rescuers would all have been wearing their standard-issue life-vests...


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Hartley18 said:


> Just to prove bar crossing incidents in bad weather aren't restricted to Portugal - in today's news:
> 
> Australian River Bar yacht drama: five beached including rescuers
> 
> ..but I can guarantee you the rescuers would all have been wearing their standard-issue life-vests...


*The drama began about 1am when the Marine Rescue was called to help a vessel struggling to get across the river bar. The Marine Rescue crew tried twice to attach a tow-rope to the yacht, but each time the ropes got tangled in the vessel's propellers. *

'Both boats were dragged out around the wall with the outgoing tide, and there was no time for the crew to do anything,' Marine Rescue NSW regional coordinator Stephen Reading told the local news outlet. 'They got hit by a couple of big waves and they were on the rocks.'

Mr Reading said the Marine Rescue crew and two crew from the stricken vessel were thrown into the water when the rescue boat flipped over. One of the yacht crew were caught in the air pocket under the boat. The jet boat was then called out about 2am to rescue the two crews.

At that point, the seas were running at between two metres and three metres, making it difficult to spot the yacht, the marine rescue boat, which was, by then, about two kilometres off shore, or the flashing beacons on the crew members' life jackets.

*'It was only luck we found them upside down,'* Mr Cummings said. ...

THE CREW of the Ballina Marine Rescue boat that capsized while coming to the aid of the yacht in distress have been nominated for bravery awards.

Sail-World.com : Australian River Bar yacht drama: five beached including rescuers

Sometimes you get lucky, sometimes not.

But I am a bit surprised. After all, those life savers tried to rescue a sailboat in dicey circumstances (the first Marine rescue boat) instead of picking up the sailcoat's crew and getting the hell out of there, the safest option. And they have tried not once but two times two time without success ending up to capsize their boat and put all in deadly risk. I also supposed that proper marine rescue boats would not remain turtle. What was that, a 10m RIB

In the end they were not subject to an inquiry (as you sujest in the Portuguese case) to see why they have managed to endanger the lives of all in a crazy boat rescue attempt instead of saving the sailboat's crew lives as they supposed to do. More they were nominated for bravery.

Of course I am being ironic regarding what you said regarding the other rescue, where a life of a rescuer was lost while attempting to do exactly what they tried to do here. Just to remember, I mean this:



Hartley18 said:


> Paulo, what I don't understand is, if the boat was in the breaking zone and heading for the beach, why on earth did two (not one - but two!) rescue boats head out in 5 metre breakers to get them? Apart from "hero" status, what were they hoping to achieve?? Surely all the rescuers needed to do was to wait on the beach and tell the people on board to don lifejackets??
> 
> .....what I don't understand is the rescuers sending *two* boats out into conditions where one of their own people died to save people off a yacht that crossed a *closed* bar against the advice of the same authorities...
> 
> ...


It seems to me that the main difference between the two rescue operations was luck, or lack of it.

Regards

Paulo


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

PCP said:


> *
> 
> It seems to me that the main difference between the two rescue operations was luck, or lack of it.
> 
> ...


*

Or, could it be that the main difference was that the Australian rescuers wore PFDs and the Portuguese did not? You suggested yourself that the drowned rescuer would likely be alive had he worn a lifevest.

It is beyond my understanding how ANYONE can go out in a difficult situation without wearing a PFD. You said that these were not trained rescuers but 'just' navy. I can tell you from my personal experience in the navy that whoever would have ordered, or allowed, personnel to go out in such circumstances without PFDs would have been in big, big trouble. If someone got killed, we are talking courtmarshaling.

And rightfully so.*


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Who said he had not a PFD? I said they had not a complete water proof life vest not a a PFD. They had PFDs aw well as all the crew members. That didn't prevent two from dying, probably unconscious after the boat capsized. I don't know if a Live vest would have increased their chances. The fact is that they did not have them, as rescuers normally have.


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

PCP said:


> Who said he had not a PFD? I said they had not a complete water proof life vest not a a PFD. They had PFDs aw well as all the crew members. That didn't prevent two from dying, probably unconscious after the boat capsized. I don't know if a Live vest would have increased their chances. The fact is that they did not have them, as rescuers normally have.


OK, I am confused. You said in an earlier posting the rescuers did not wear life vests which is the common (non-technical) term for PFD, personal flotation device.

When you say life vest, do you mean immersion suit?


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> OK, I am confused. You said in an earlier posting the rescuers did not wear life vests which is the common (non-technical) term for PFD, personal flotation device.
> 
> When you say life vest, do you mean immersion suit?


Yes, sorry about my bad English

Regards

Paulo


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

PCP said:


> Yes, sorry about my bad English
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


MUCH better than my Portuguese


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## divefreak (Apr 15, 2013)

Immersion suits make a big difference in the cold atlantic waters!


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

PCP said:


> But I am a bit surprised. After all, those life savers tried to rescue a sailboat in dicey circumstances (the first Marine rescue boat) instead of picking up the sailcoat's crew and getting the hell out of there, the safest option. And they have tried not once but two times two time without success ending up to capsize their boat and put all in deadly risk. I also supposed that proper marine rescue boats would not remain turtle. What was that, a 10m RIB
> 
> In the end they were not subject to an inquiry (as you sujest in the Portuguese case) to see why they have managed to endanger the lives of all in a crazy boat rescue attempt instead of saving the sailboat's crew lives as they supposed to do. More they were nominated for bravery.


Over here at least, public inquiries come when people die doing their job, but just because they've been nominated for bravery (ie. they got away with doing something crazy without killing themselves in the process) does not mean there won't be some kind of internal inquiry by AMSA and actions that come out of that for the next time this sort of thing happens.

You can be sure the decisions of the guy in charge will be questioned ("why the hell didn't you just pick up the sailboat's crew and get the hell out of there??") and maybe they'll get a more suitable rescue boat like you guys use. 



PCP said:


> It seems to me that the main difference between the two rescue operations was luck, or lack of it.


Perhaps.. or equipment? or training?? I would not know, just sitting back in my arm-chair like you are, Paulo. 

...but of course you are right, these people were very lucky this time. The sea does not take prisoners.


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

A passing thought on all of this:

Could it be that we have so many ocean bars over here that I am taking for granted that sailors and marine rescue crossing them know what to do and what not to do? You have so many fine anchorages and sailing grounds in Western Europe: Is it possible that the crew of the _Meri Tuuli_ did not understand the dangers of 'closed harbours' and 'bar entrances'??


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## knuterikt (Aug 7, 2006)

Hartley18 said:


> A passing thought on all of this:
> 
> Could it be that we have so many ocean bars over here that I am taking for granted that sailors and marine rescue crossing them know what to do and what not to do? You have so many fine anchorages and sailing grounds in Western Europe: Is it possible that the crew of the _Meri Tuuli_ did not understand the dangers of 'closed harbours' and 'bar entrances'??


Probably a kind of explanation, Europe is as Paulo wrote a very diverse cruising ground (and large).

The dangerous bars come from a combination of weather and geography (under water shape and depths).
Portugal sits on the west of Europe with the open Atlantic with long stretches to build waves and the rapidly shallowing towards the coast and the bars combined with rivers pushing water out.

Compare this with my country Norway. The western part of the country see similar weather but the geography is different. We have deep fjords and islands giving us more harbors (natural and man made) that is relatively easy to access.

We do have some ares that can be dangerous during bad weather - but it's not as bad as in Portugal. (described in the Norwegian Pilot)

The Norwegian "Sørlandet" region (south east on the map) is even more sheltered.

And then we have Mediterranean, Skagerak, Kategat and Baltic (++) all areas with different conditions.

What I'm trying to say is that getting information on local conditions is important. And it's dangerous to view a large region (for instance Europe or Norway) as one "type" of water.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Hartley18 said:


> A passing thought on all of this:
> 
> Could it be that we have so many ocean bars over here that I am taking for granted that sailors and marine rescue crossing them know what to do and what not to do? You have so many fine anchorages and sailing grounds in Western Europe: Is it possible that the crew of the _Meri Tuuli_ did not understand the dangers of 'closed harbours' and 'bar entrances'??


You mean like this Aussie knows?






Seriously I don't know, we surely understand that. I can only remember one accident with a Portuguese sailboat and many with foreigner boats. Our west coast) is an open one without few natural shelters and some dangerous bars but also with good ports that remain open with bad weather. I guess you are right, sailors that come from other coats with more shelters (The North of Spain is a lot better and the Med has not any comparison) are used to sail for the day, or even not for a full day and stop for the night. That is not always possible here, at least with not settled weather.

What makes me wonder is that on the last two deadly accidents the skippers were described as very experienced. It seems that experience does not always provide a reasonable dose of caution.

Regards

Paulo


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## divefreak (Apr 15, 2013)

Hartley18 said:


> You can be sure the decisions of the guy in charge will be questioned ("why the hell didn't you just pick up the sailboat's crew and get the hell out of there??") and maybe they'll get a more suitable rescue boat like you guys use.
> 
> Perhaps.. or equipment? or training?? I would not know, just sitting back in my arm-chair like you are, Paulo.


Hi

Lifeboat/Rescueboat Design is a since of its own

I discussed the australian philosophies with Pete from mid coast marine, he´s well known in the IRB /Surfrescue scene.

I´ll never understand why cat boats are used in the surf! Inshore, on lakes or on the baltic, yes. They make a nice an stable work platform. But on a Barr/ in the surf, no way i would go out in such a boat!

Give me a rigid hull inflatable, or a conventional deep V hull. with a self rightening Frame or pilothouse and I´ll be happy

The RNLI Boats are nice or our aluminium Boats, but they are too slow IMHO, but very very safe. On the other Hand even on our 27m ships they had deadly accidents in the north sea.


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## divefreak (Apr 15, 2013)

Knrm not rnli


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

divefreak said:


> I´ll never understand why cat boats are used in the surf! Inshore, on lakes or on the baltic, yes. They make a nice an stable work platform. But on a Barr/ in the surf, no way i would go out in such a boat!


Actually if you watch the video posted by PCP immediately above your post, you'll see exactly why cat boats are used in surf. 

..but that doesn't mean they are the best platform by any means. I am honestly not at all sure what is, but then I don't claim to be an expert on the subject either.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

divefreak said:


> Hi
> 
> Lifeboat/Rescueboat Design is a since of its own
> 
> ...


Here for coastal operations they use RIBs (more usually), proper ones not the Navy one that was involved or small self rightening rescue boats. Near the beach or in the Surf they use also helicopters and Jet skys. On that rescue, a jet sky was also there (they use them to reach the victims faster and to carry them to the bigger boats) and an helicopter.





Regards

Paulo


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## divefreak (Apr 15, 2013)

PCP said:


> Here for coastal operations they use RIBs (more usually), proper ones not the Navy one that was involved or small self rightening rescue boats.


Looks like an old german boat or at least the same design










very very good boats but a bit slow

the Rib is also nice!

but currently our DGzRS is loosing ground by switching the smaller boats for sternheavy crappy designed Copys of the KNRM Ribs....


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

PCP said:


> Here for coastal operations they use RIBs (more usually), proper ones not the Navy one that was involved or small self rightening rescue boats. Near the beach or in the Surf they use also helicopters and Jet skys. On that rescue, a jet sky was also there (they use them to reach the victims faster and to carry them to the bigger boats) and an helicopter.


Nice! 

Over here (down under) they've started using these in a dual Pilot/Rescue role:






Here's a link to some pics of one out in The Rip on a sunny summers day:

http://www.hartmarine.com.au/index.php/about-us/our-history-4


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Hartley18 said:


> ...
> 
> If that happened over here, there would be a major coronial inquest and people in authority would be reprimanded for mis-managing the situation!   ...


It seems that after all they are running not one but 3 different inquest not regarding mis-managing the situation but to know why a maritime police died. It turns out that he was wearing a live vest with an automatic system that did not worked when he hit the water. They keep it secret while they were running the inquiries but today come to the public that was the main object of the investigation. He would be probably alive if the life vest had worked properly.

Regards

Paulo


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

PCP said:


> It seems that after all they are running not one but 3 different inquest not regarding mis-managing the situation but to know why a maritime police died. It turns out that he was wearing a live vest with an automatic system that did not worked when he hit the water. They keep it secret while they were running the inquiries but today come to the public that was the main object of the investigation. He would be probably alive if the life vest had worked properly.


Do they say if it was a manual one or automatic, Paulo?

I know some rescue-people here who don't like using automatic PFDs in case they inflate at the wrong time - but they are taking a risk also that they'll be concious when they hit the water...


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

It was an Automatic with salt pills. When the body was recovered the body the life vest was not inflated.

Typically here they say little when an inquiry is on. They say they are going to see if that was a maintenance problem or a defect and that's why several inquiries. One of them is looking at how the maintenance of life saving devices is made.


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## divefreak (Apr 15, 2013)

Hartley18 said:


> I know some rescue-people here who don't like using automatic PFDs in case they inflate at the wrong time - but they are taking a risk also that they'll be concious when they hit the water...


We went on with a different aproach when I was an active Lifeguard.
Captain + one of the Crew automatic PFD, the designated rescue swimmer manual pfd



PCP said:


> IThey say they are going to see if that was a maintenance problem or a defect and that's why several inquiries. One of them is looking at how the maintenance of life saving devices is made.


Just need to check if the Floatationg Body is Ok, If not old vs new damage and if the pressure cylinder punctured or not


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## Boasun (Feb 10, 2007)

you need a "Gram" scale to weigh the CO2 bottles of the life jackets. Some have been known to leak out over a period of time. Weigh the blessed thing before installing it and then once every quarter or so. This also includes the spares you have stowed below and almost forgotten about.


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