# Health / Medical Insurance for Cruisers



## SuzySailor (Feb 7, 2007)

Hey all~

I have done due diligence and searched both this site and SSCA, and found nothing truly helpful on this topic. I really need some help, and I know from doing lots of searching that I'm not alone in this dilemma. We're quitting jobs soon and moving onto the boat, planning to start cruising asap. The present obstacle, a serious one, is health insurance. We're in our early 50's (yikes! that sounds old!) and quite healthy, at least so we thought until we started looking for insurance. Long story short (you're welcome!  )-- of the thousands of companies in existance, all of them would be happy to "insure" our healthy 19 yr-old son, and there might even be a few who are willing to receive a monthly donation of $500-$1000 from us, but we're not at all convinced that, if we need any help from them in return, they'll be there.

So here's the question, which sounds oh so much simpler than it is~~ can anyone recommend, from personal experience, a reasonably priced, dependable health insurance plan that works in both US and abroad?? I know that everyone is different, and that we might all pick different variations of an ideal plan, but give me somewhere to start-- give me a name. Thanks.


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## kd3pc (Oct 19, 2006)

suzy

Good luck, I am in my early 50's no major illnesses to date, but went back to work just to get insurance. I used a full 18months of COBRA, that at better than 1200 a month, and have found NOTHING for less than $2K that will actually cover anything and with a very large deductible.

Let us know what you find....this is surely going to be the biggest problem I will ever face as I get old...it is not a matter of premiums...NO ONE will willingly insure an active 50+ year old...

dave


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

You don't need health insurance. Take the $1000 a month and invest it. If you truly are healthy, then your only real needs will be minor. If it's major, cash in the investments and pay it off. If it's catastrophic, make payments, (to the hospital and doctors, not the insurance companies) or file bankruptcy. But don't pay $1000-$2000 a month to the insurance companies.


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## denby (Feb 21, 2007)

I would look for a major medical plan with a high deductible and bank the rest.



Dennis


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Suzy, the SCCA discussions really have covered all the options. "Reasonable" no longer exists, forget about that. "Affordable" usually means "major medical only" and you'll have to deal out of pocket with anything except being hit by a truck. And even then, the annual and lifetime policy coverage limits are incredibly low.

US insurers may not cover you overseas, and overseas policies may require that you not be in the US. Again, lots discussed in the SSCA forums. You may have to cast an eye towards where you will be going, and whether you think the medical care there is good enough, or whether you also want medevac insurance back to the states. That's another catch: Many policies cover only the injured party, and many airlines requires someone to accompnay you. If you look for medevac, look for a policy that allows a partner to accompany you.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Antique Sailor*



SuzySailor said:


> Hey all~
> 
> I have done due diligence and searched both this site and SSCA, and found nothing truly helpful on this topic. I really need some help, and I know from doing lots of searching that I'm not alone in this dilemma. We're quitting jobs soon and moving onto the boat, planning to start cruising asap. The present obstacle, a serious one, is health insurance. We're in our early 50's (yikes! that sounds old!) and quite healthy, at least so we thought until we started looking for insurance. Long story short (you're welcome!  )-- of the thousands of companies in existance, all of them would be happy to "insure" our healthy 19 yr-old son, and there might even be a few who are willing to receive a monthly donation of $500-$1000 from us, but we're not at all convinced that, if we need any help from them in return, they'll be there.
> 
> So here's the question, which sounds oh so much simpler than it is~~ can anyone recommend, from personal experience, a reasonably priced, dependable health insurance plan that works in both US and abroad?? I know that everyone is different, and that we might all pick different variations of an ideal plan, but give me somewhere to start-- give me a name. Thanks.


I can't directly answer your question but I can talk about an alternative; if you are cruising to Canada, Costa Rica, New Zealand, Australia, and South Africa I found medical care so inexpensive and good that insurance isn't the problem it is here. Even South Africa provided good care at a reasonable cost although it isn't as available to the masses; only those whose income is substantial but that is far different that what is substantial here.
Wishing you well.
Mary


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

If I were you I'd seriously consider moving to Vancouver, where you can sail year round and work for a few more years until you can get Canadian citizenship. Our health care plan covers you around the world, but you only get it if you pay taxes here.

I honest to God don't understand how 300 million people have been cowed into submitting to the wills of 150 odd insurance companies, or paying the insanely inflated charges associated with mediacl care in your country.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Sailormann-
If Suzy and her husband are not both college graduates (or higher) with jobs already contracted in Canada, they probably cannot qualify the 65 points needed to emigrate and become residents. Unless they divorce and marry other Canadian citizens. Or, declare themselves to be stateless refugees and sneak in that huge secret entrance.

Canada ain't so easy to get into.

Suze, if you think $1000 per month for a married couple is UNreasonable for a company that will provide globalcare--surprise! I'd call that CHEAP for a policy that was offering "major medical" alone, and astounding for a complete medical insurance package with realistic annual and lifetime coverage limits.

That's where insurance is at in the US today. Every alternative has some pretty strict limits, so check them out carefully. The old fashioned "covers anything anywhere" policies won't exist for less than the price of a luxury car per year.


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## Vasco (Sep 24, 2006)

Sailormann said:


> If I were you I'd seriously consider moving to Vancouver, where you can sail year round and work for a few more years until you can get Canadian citizenship. Our health care plan covers you around the world, but you only get it if you pay taxes here.
> 
> I honest to God don't understand how 300 million people have been cowed into submitting to the wills of 150 odd insurance companies, or paying the insanely inflated charges associated with mediacl care in your country.


Your BC insurance covers you around the world?? It's not like that in Ontario.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

OHIP covers you for emergency medical care and transport back to Canada (not perfect but better than nothing)



> For people travelling outside Canada, the ministry pays a set rate for emergency health services. Emergency health services are those given in connection with an acute, unexpected condition, illness, disease or injury that arises outside Canada and requires immediate treatment. Ambulance services are not covered. Ontario residents are encouraged to purchase supplementary insurance when traveling outside Canada as many emergency health services provided outside the country cost more than OHIP may pay.


http://www.health.gov.on.ca/english/public/pub/ohip/travel.htmlmuch


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

So that would be Canadian Provincial health care systems, not a National Health care system?

I understand Hawaii and one of our midwestern states (Michigan?) also have universal health care for their citizens, and Maine is in the process of phasing it in.


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## denby (Feb 21, 2007)

hellosailor said:


> So that would be Canadian Provincial health care systems, not a National Health care system?
> 
> I understand Hawaii and one of our midwestern states (Michigan?) also have universal health care for their citizens, and Maine is in the process of phasing it in.


Also Tennessee has a form of it but is going bankrupt.

Dennis


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

> So that would be Canadian Provincial health care systems, not a National Health care system?
> 
> I understand Hawaii and one of our midwestern states (Michigan?) also have universal health care for their citizens, and Maine is in the process of phasing it in.


It is federally mandated program that is administered by the provinces. Every province has to provide it, but they are free to implement as they choose. It is a far from perfect system, but having grown up with it, I find it difficult to conceive of not being able to go to a doctor because you can't afford it, or being told that you can't get a certain type of treatment becuase your insurance won't cover it.

Mind you - our income taxes are higher than yours down there, so it's not a free thing...

It is encouraging to hear that some states are implementing programs. I hope you folks are all doing your best to support the process and trying to turn it into a nationwide thing.


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

Michigan has no such thing


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Xort, it's some other state far from hawaii. If no Michigan, Try minnesota. Someplace in the middle thousand miles of the US.

When those lying Clintons were getting elected on the sham promise of "national health" it was pointed out that 1-This is a federal republic, there are 50 sovereign states each of which can do the job alone and as they feel it it best done, and 2-That several of them were already doing it. Back then it was two states, now three if Maine comes online (a five year transition) and four is Massachussetts succeeds with their mandatory plan.

Point being, the Federal Republic of these United States is the second national government we've formed. And it was chartered to keep away the British and Indians and coin a common currency and then--STEP OUT.

Well, the Brits have had their fill of meddling. The Indians are laughing their way back to karmic justice with casinos and tax-free cigarette sales, and the credit card companies have taken over the currency business.

There's nothing in our federal charter that gives the fed the rights to impose a national health system, that's a right reserved to the states.

Where the voters still don't want it badly enough to make it happen.


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## SimonV (Jul 6, 2006)

I have seen it mentioned here that health insurance could cost $1000 US a month. I have checked with an insurer here in Oz, they will give me 12 Months travel insurance which includes medical and dental plus all the other coverage associated with travel for a mere $1120 US for the year, Includes USA and Canada. Trip must be started and ended in Australia.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

SuzySailor said:


> Hey all~
> 
> So here's the question, which sounds oh so much simpler than it is~~ can anyone recommend, from personal experience, a reasonably priced, dependable health insurance plan that works in both US and abroad?? I know that everyone is different, and that we might all pick different variations of an ideal plan, but give me somewhere to start-- give me a name. Thanks.


It would be great to get back on the original subject that SuzySailor was asking - about Health Insurance options while cruising


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Simon, you may have no idea what we are talking about in terms of what is "good" health insurance in the US. 

A typically "good" policy form an employer, or privately, would include:
Co-payment of $10 or less to see any doctor
Balance of doctor's fee 100% covered.
Hospitalization covered in full, up to $250,000 or more per incident, $500,000 or more per year, $1,000,000 lifetime coverage OR MORE.
You can buy cheaper plans, they often cap the payback at $50,000-100,000 for a lifetime limit--which means one appendectomy or organ failure and your plan is cancelled for exceeding the limits.
A "good" plan also would include all pharmaceuticals, not just a short approved list, available from any participating pharmacy (not just mail order) with a $5-10 co-payment.
And, it would include coverage from any hospital in the US, not just regional coverage. And, in an area where there are no "plan provider members" it will cover services for urgent care from any provider.

Yeah, you can get cheap insurance. And many businesses offer a "cafeteria plan" starting at $300-400 per month for the lowest HMO coverage. But that radpicly goes up to $1000 for the plans that offer complete and meaningful coverage. And if you want those same plans as a sole employer or other "individual"...you can easily pay 50% to 100% more, of the plan will be offered to you at all. 

So, don't think for a minute that you can get "good" coverage by US standards, unless you know the specifics of the coverage policy and have seen it in writing. Including all the deductibles and limits.

If you want medical coverage on your own in the US, either you join a minimal coverage HMO or you get a "major medical" policy. Or sometimes, you can get a state-mandated policy for lower income families with children, etc.

But good cheap insurance? Like good cheap parachutes, you may want to examine the product before attempting to use it.


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## SuzySailor (Feb 7, 2007)

tweeks said:


> It would be great to get back on the original subject that SuzySailor was asking - about Health Insurance options while cruising


Yeah!! I second that!!  I went back and checked SSCA to see what I had missed-- I had read all that they have. Some people recommend IMG-- they have rejected us, much to our surprise--we have no medical issues that even approach serious. The second company that is recommended, with one (count 'em, one) person who has actually submitted and been reimbursed for claims, is Generali Worldwide/Global Assurance/Medis Health (why can't these companies have just one name??? I get so confused...). I called the aforementioned once, and it sounded like there was an office party going on, and the person who answered the phone clearly did not speak English-- this wasn't the Spanish line, either... I called a second time, days later, and was disconnected. There are misspellings all over their website, and you can't apply online because something there isn't working. These things do not inspire confidence. Lately we have been in contact with "Assurant"-- (not to be confused with Global Assurance). They are going over our medical histories verrrry carefully, and then, if they decide that we are acceptable, I will try to get more than the initial 15 minutes on the phone with the agent, to try and understand and shape the plan into something useful to us that we can afford. I'm not feeling very hopeful. Next on my agenda is BC/BS; I heard from an agent that they will cover overseas, then Humana, where overseas is simply "out-of-network". I frankly think it's a mistake to buy the 6 months out of the US coverage, or the coverage that stipulates that you be out of the country within 30 days from its initiation, and then fudge on that. If you had a catastrophic illness or accident of some sort, there's no way they wouldn't start checking on that stuff. What we _need_ coverage for is the big money stuff, and the big money stuff is when insurance companies start paying very close attention.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Suzy, when you throw around vague terms like "good" and 'reasonable' or "affordable"...

Remember that a FORUM by definition is a place for discussion. If you hafve been unclear about what you are looking for, it is normal and proper for people to give you confused answers, irrelevant answers, and questions about exactly what you meant.

"a reasonably priced, dependable health insurance plan "
Define reasonably priced. Define dependable. Define what coverage you would consider acceptable or unacceptable. Are you even aware that some "reasonable" plans will not give you any air evacuation insurance? Not even for the injured party without supervision? Are you aware that limits of coverage may be as little as $25,000 per incident, or per year?

Is that reasonable and acceptable to you?

Are you aware that even the major players, like BlueCross/BlueShield, routinely and intentionally reject and delay payments to participants? Deny receiving claims sent by certified mail? 

That's reasonable and acceptable to most folks, but it might not be to you.


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## retclt (Nov 7, 2006)

I had a friend who was an exec at that mega insurance company named after a mountain in Italy. She said it was company policy to reject first claims no matter what the reason. Very profitable policy. I remember a few years back several hundred doctors in Dallas got together and made a very public (news conference) dumping of that company. A lot of people, me included, had to find new doctors.

Sorry for the digression Suzy. Have you looked into NASE (National Association for the Self Employed)? I don’t know how they are now but I used them several years ago and they were great. Back then I chose the doctor/Hospital and they never denied a claim. They had a wide range of packages. I was very happy with them.


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## sailusvi (May 3, 2005)

At 51, I just dropped my full service Health insurance, it was raised again to $1800 a month so I bailed out. Major Medical is all I want now, we will handle all the "small stuff" costs. What we did find out was that here in the States you can negotiate the fees doctors and hospitals charge.(my family is full of doctors) Last week I needed an MRI for my knee (dislocated on my stand up jet ski) the price quoted was $1400 bucks or higher. After calling around to a few imaging centers letting them know we were cash customers we got a price of $550. 
Once out this country I think the cash cost may not be all that unreasonable. This is a problem we all are gonna face at some point in time.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Geez it's great to be Canadian


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## retclt (Nov 7, 2006)

Even at $1400 for the MRI it appears to be the right decision dropping the insurance. In a month that leaves you $400 ahead. I have always been anti-Hillary care - still am . . . . . . . but . . . . . . . $1800 a month? The bean counting suits at those big insurance companies . . . and ambulance chasing lawyers may sway me soon. I know the recent influx of anchor babies from south of the border have really put a strain on the system that is costing us all but that's another subject for another place. I'm out of anti-acids today anyway.


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## SuzySailor (Feb 7, 2007)

We're still waiting to hear from 2 insurance companies, but I thought I'd pass on a few tips from "one who knows"--i.e. my brother-in-law, who's an insurance broker in another state from ours (and therefore can't officially help us). He says 1- Don't mention the sailing plans-- insurance people will think it's cool and all, but they'll also think you're more likely to get hurt. 2- Don't mention the foreign travel-- insurance people will think it's cool and all, but they'll also think you're more likely to get sick. 3- Don't try to get US/Foreign coverage, all US insurance plans must cover you for 30 days in any foreign country anyway, and at that point, if it's serious and you want to come back to the US for treatment, you can. (Here is where a DAN plan might come in handy, if you need to be "transported"). Our thoughts are that if we need care in most foreign countries, we'll be glad we're there, as far as costs go. I would think that finding the right doctors might be a little tricky, but I do remember some organization that would help with that, for a small membership fee. My info about it is at the boat right now, I keep nothing in my head. So anyway, that's the 3 cents from my brother-in-law, a great guy and a wonderful baritone but not the ultimate source for anything so please do your own fact-finding!


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Suzy, I think you misheard him on this.
 "US/Foreign coverage, all US insurance plans must cover you for 30 days in any foreign country anyway, "

Yeah, that might be possible. Dunno. But if they DO cover you, it will be what is called "out of plan coverage" or "out of network coverage" and that usually means they'll pay next to nothing, or nothing at all. Unless you read your policy and it provides for some reimbursement when you are out of the plan/coverage area, which many don't, assume you will be reimbursed for nothing. In or out of the US.


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

When I leave I hope to have catastrophic insurance in case something really terrible happens, but otherwise I plan to just use local medicine and doctors. Sure, that might involve someone shaking a rattle over me and burning a chicken, but at least they care. 

I don't know what I would do if I was over 40 though, or 50, I'm sure the choices become more difficult at some point when you actually start worrying about real problems with your health.

The best thing I could do for my own health is get on a boat and go cruising. I know from limited experience that I eat less, live healthier, etc, and that's the best kind of insurance there is.


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## retclt (Nov 7, 2006)

Jesus was born in a manger because Mary was on an HMO plan.


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## sailusvi (May 3, 2005)

well spoken



wind_magic said:


> The best thing I could do for my own health is get on a boat and go cruising. I know from limited experience that I eat less, live healthier, etc, and that's the best kind of insurance there is.


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## SuzySailor (Feb 7, 2007)

I know this thread is dead, but in case anyone is searching as we searched for so long, I just wanted to wrap this up with our present solution-- we have "signed up" with Blue Cross/Blue Shield, with whom we had about 7 choices of plans that, for the two of us, were between $400 and $500 a month (deductibles from $1,000-5,000) which was about the best we were hoping for. Coverage is worldwide, and there is a drug plan included, which we didn't think we'd ever have. The best part is they didn't do a big medical investigation-- the process was painless, esp. compared to what we'd been through with three other companies, all of whom either "rejected" one or both of us.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

SuzySailor said:


> I know this thread is dead, but in case anyone is searching as we searched for so long, I just wanted to wrap this up with our present solution-- we have "signed up" with Blue Cross/Blue Shield, with whom we had about 7 choices of plans that, for the two of us, were between $400 and $500 a month (deductibles from $1,000-5,000) which was about the best we were hoping for. Coverage is worldwide, and there is a drug plan included, which we didn't think we'd ever have. The best part is they didn't do a big medical investigation-- the process was painless, esp. compared to what we'd been through with three other companies, all of whom either "rejected" one or both of us.


Suzy,

Your participation here has been great and thank you for the effort in this thread. I hope it is helpful to many of the other members as they go through the same circus.

I do want to mention, as I do have BC/BS and a somewhat similar plan, that they limited my drug purchases to certain retailers recently. Mine is a BC/BS Florida - which is different than some of the other policies. Just make sure you read the fine print.

In all, they are not a bad company... at least as much as can be expected.

All the best. Take care and stay in touch with us.

- CD


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Suzy, BC/BS is certainly a major vendor but I give you two caveats.

Some years ago my uncle was hospitalized for kidney failure, the first set of bills submitted to BC/BS was just about $100,000. They sent a check for about 99 cents in payment for it all. This, despite him being part of a major group.

More recently, IIRC it was a BC/BS executive who went on record during an interview as saying that they randomly rejected or threw out a certain number of all incoming requests for payment, on the theory that some folks who simply accept that and pay by themselves--reducing the dollar volume they paid out. (BC/BS is not alone in doing this, the only question is why the RICO laws have not been applied to pretty much the entire industry for doing this.)

So...Sounds like you got a great bargain. Just dot your i's and cross your t's and make all your submissions to BC/BS in writing, by certified/return receipt. 

Insurers actually throw out a certain percent of THAT mail as well, claiming they never got it, but they tend to change their tune when you mention "postal inspector" to a claims supervisor.


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## SuzySailor (Feb 7, 2007)

hellosailor said:


> So...Sounds like you got a great bargain. Just dot your i's and cross your t's and make all your submissions to BC/BS in writing, by certified/return receipt.


I should have mentioned that we got this insurance through an agent-- no extra cost to us. She will, as part of her role, be an advocate for us if we do have problems relating to BC/BS. She came highly recommended for her knowledge, perseverence and high standards. She's also an RN, so in dealing with a medical insurance company, she knows whereof she speaks.


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## SuzySailor (Feb 7, 2007)

Cruisingdad said:


> Your participation here has been great and thank you for the effort in this thread. I hope it is helpful to many of the other members as they go through the same circus.
> - CD


Thanks! I appreciate that.


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## SuzySailor (Feb 7, 2007)

*Another, less encouraging update*

After being "enrolled" with BC/BC for one month at a cost of $432.17, we have been notified that the monthly fees for the coming year will be $563.05 A mere 30% increase. We are thinking of "unenrolling".


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

Suzy
Consider doing some comparison shopping here...

http://www.ehealthinsurance.com./


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

LOL... aren't they supposed to wait a year before screwing you over???


SuzySailor said:


> After being "enrolled" with BC/BC for one month at a cost of $432.17, we have been notified that the monthly fees for the coming year will be $563.05 A mere 30% increase. We are thinking of "unenrolling".


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## labatt (Jul 31, 2006)

Suzy - That's a fairly standard thing. As a business owner, I'm used to seeing my employee's premiums increase by 20%-30% per year. We sign 12 month contracts so our rates don't increase until our contract expires. This year we only saw negligible increases in premiums for a change -only around 4%! We were quite ecstatic. By the way, even with a corporate plan, we still pay $1k/month for family coverage (HMO - $20/visit co-pay, $5/$12/$45 prescription (with unlimited coverage per year), $250 in-patient co-pay, vision coverage, dental ($2k/year I believe) and a bunch of other stuff). Individuals are around $350/month I believe. I can't remember how much double coverage is. Health insurance is expensive! We're also trying to figure out our coverage options for when we start our cruise (with our kids).


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

More and more "good companies" aren't providing health care. I've even heard of some small software companies that were generally making pretty good money that said that they couldn't afford health care for their employees, and that's almost unheard of.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Actually, a friend of mine who has been in the HR field for ages said that providing health benefits can often increase costs to a company by up to 65% of the employee's actual salary, and this is especially true in smaller companies with lower paid positions where the figure may be even higher. So it wouldn't surprise me that a small company can't afford it... healthcare costs have skyrocketed relative to the value of the dollar, wages or almost any other benchmark you'd compare it to.


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

Thinking big picture, it's sort of a good thing that health care costs have finally started going non-linear, going up 20-30% per year, etc. Since that is totally unsustainable it will have to break, which means it'll get fixed. Whenever you get such massive inefficiency in a system it becomes extinct and something more efficient replaces it. It's happened in the auto industry, it happened in the railroad industry before that, it's happened in just about every industry at some point. At present the health care industry has priced out a full 25% of it's "customers", probably going up every year, when will it break, 35%, 40%, 50% ? At some point people just say forget it, it's not working for us, and they stop playing the game, or rather, they start changing the rules. The health care industry has become it's own worst nightmare, it couldn't do much worse than it is now. The public generally believes that the health care industry is just in it for the money, that they don't actually care about patients, that they are greedy, etc, you couldn't do worse if you hired Lucifer, Inc. as your PR company.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

" Since that is totally unsustainable it will have to break, which means it'll get fixed. Whenever you get such massive inefficiency in a system it becomes extinct and something more efficient replaces it. It's happened in the auto industry, it happened in the railroad industry before that, it's happened in just about every industry at some point. "
What might ask, what are you pretending TO know?[g]

The auto industry is in the process of shifting and collapsing, nothing has actually changed and come out anew yet. Cheaper players (like the Japanese, subsidized by their government) have taken large market share--but the US players have yet to make any real significant long-term changes.

Ditto the rail industry, which simply was decimated by airlines in the US, and still has never recovered much less regrouped from it. What we've got left are Amtrak passenger rail runs--which take twice as long as they did 50 years ago, and cost more than the airlines do, and Amtrak may yet be shut down and terminated as a failure by Congress and their failure to become independent and profitable.

Then there's the deregulated aviation industry, where safety is measured in "costs per death payment" rather than 'safety", and except for the government bailout after 9/11, we'd have seen United and American both driven into bankruptcy by $50-100 BILLION dollars in claims, and their route probably sold to ElAl and Air India, both of which have security policies which would have prevented 9/11 entirely.

Healthcare? Yeah, the prices are going up, the providers (what used to be called "doctors") are going broke, the subscribers are getting screwed, the executives are making huge money--and the state and federal regulators ignore it all. Watch for an NBC-TV national report by Brian Williams in another week or two, highlighting the way that Medicare abuse reports are being ignored by city, county, state, federal, FBI, Medicare, agencies at all levels. Ignored--instead of being investigated. There's some big time ineptness (or corruption) going on.

Changing the rules? Sorry, my friend, it will take a revolution, and we've all been taught in school that good little droids don't do that.


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

hellosailor said:


> What might ask, what are you pretending TO know?[g]
> 
> The auto industry is in the process of shifting and collapsing, nothing has actually changed and come out anew yet. Cheaper players (like the Japanese, subsidized by their government) have taken large market share--but the US players have yet to make any real significant long-term changes.
> 
> ...


You are right on a lot of points. 

When I said auto industry I simply meant that they got priced out of their own market in the 70's and have never recovered.

The railway industry was the premier industry and it collapsed under changing market demands and also it's own hubris.

And of course, hubris, I mean don't you just feel it in the air when you go to the hospital ? Didn't used to be like that. I remember when I was young and worked at a hospital people were kind, my grandmother worked there, the nurses sat with patients and talked to them, etc. Now you walk in and the equipment is better, true, but you are just a number, nobody even talks to you, you are attended not by nurses but instead by little beepy things that are all tied to some central CPU somewhere etc.

The best thing about the arrogance of the medical establishment is that it's found a true voice in the show "House" lol, because that jackass is exactly what we all think doctors are like these days.


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## therapy23 (Jul 28, 2007)

wind_magic said:


> you are attended *not by nurses *but instead by little beepy things that are all tied to some central CPU somewhere etc.
> 
> The best thing about the arrogance of the medical establishment is that it's found a true voice in the show "House" lol, because that jackass is exactly what *we all think doctors are like *these days.


There are not enough nurses - they are too expensive.
The hope is that the beepy thing is actually connected.

Doctors are a little bitter these days too.
You would be too if your income had been *reduced* 3 to 10% *PER YEAR *over the last 10 years or so!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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