# Can you winterize an engine without running it first?



## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

I heard somewhere that you have to start an engine and get the oil warm prior to changing the oil. The oil change is about to be done at the marina, and I think they aren't going to start the engine first. Is this a problem?

As a side note, the marina manager seems very adamant about winterizing our sailboat this morning, and not waiting until I can be there to watch. I would like to learn how to do it, and I also like to oversee what's going on. (Maybe not a good comparison, but Jiffy Lube once tried to start my car engine before the other mechanic had put oil back in.) She's been waiting for this event for 2 weeks now. Is this normal, that they would have a small time window? Do you usually watch or attend these types of things?


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

Well

YOUR really pushing your luck in terms of freeze dammage as we have had so much cold weather allready 


IMHP a proper oil change requires the motor to be warmed up oil changed and run again to get fresh oil on the moving parts 

If you dont do this what is the point of even changeing it now


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

I agree with Tommy. 
We have the yard do this every fall along with changing the fuel filter.
They tell me (so they say) that they warm engine first.


> Do you usually watch or attend these types of things?


Nope, I trust our yard to do the work as asked. They have been around forever and have a very fine reputation. If there is a problem they are responsible.

Not all yards are this way and I have heard of nighmares over yard work being done, but to winterize is something they should be familiar with, another but, if they screw it up, you could be in for a world of hurt.


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## DrB (Mar 29, 2007)

*Winterizing the motor*

Two things need to happen:

Oil Change and Anti-Freeze the Raw Water side of your motor.

Oil Change works best if you can run the motor for 5 minutes or so and let it warm up. Helps make it flow easier and resuspends the particulates for easier drain/suck out. Change both he oil and filter.

For the Raw water side of the motor, I don't know of any other way to get the anti-freeze into the motor without getting it started. So, if your going to start it to introduce the anti-freeze, do it long enough to get the oil warm and change it.

I see that you live in New England. I hope that your boat has been in the water. If it's been on the hard, we have had a lot of below freezing, so be careful before starting the motor. You may want to put a small heater inside the boat for a few hours to thaw any frozen areas. Hoepfully no damage has occurred.

DrB


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## CrazyRu (May 10, 2007)

They normally do winterazing on bunch of boats, row by row. They have a cart or a truck with bulk tanks of anifreeze. If they skip your boat than they will need to go back to it, unwind hoses, etc. It's extra work....


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## BarryL (Aug 21, 2003)

Hello,

I do it myself, so I can't comment on watching or commenting.

Regarding the oil change, it is easier, faster, and better to change the oil after it has been run long enough to get it warm. The warm oil will flow faster. The oil can be changed cold, but it will take a long time for the old oil to drain, and some additional will stay inside the engine. Not enough to really worry about it.

I would want my BOAT winterized RIGHT AWAY, like 2-3 weeks ago. We have had some cold weather, and I would be worried about the fresh water system. The engine raw water system should be OK, but what about your fresh water?

Good luck,
Barry


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

*Ideally*

Ideally the motor should be run before and after an oil change. I prefer to take it a step further and run it long enough and get it warm enough to burn off cold engine condensation which you WILL have in these temps. This could take 30 minutes or more. If at a dock simply put it in gear at low RPM to seed up the process of warming and burning off the condensation.

#1 Warm engine to sufficiently burn off condensation inside. You don't want any more moisture in the engine than absolutely necessary over the winter.

#2 Change oil & filter.

#3 Close raw water intake and remove intake hose from strainer.

#4 Add a lenght of hose to the strainer long enough to reach into a 5 gallon bucket.

#5 Add 3-4 gallons of engine rated non-toxic antifreeze to the bucket. It's usually labeled -60 or -100, but DO NOT dilute.

#6 Start engine and suck antifreeze through it until hose is empty and making sucking sounds.

#7 Remove impeller

#8 Drain water lift muffler

#9 Remove air box and use saran wrap and an elastic band to seal it off.

#10 Remove wet exhaust hose and do the same.

Most boat yards will skip about half these steps...:hothead:hothead Always better to DIY or be there IMHO..


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## DrB (Mar 29, 2007)

*Maine Sail*

Why do you drain essentially all the AntiFreeze from the motor/exhaust lines after you put it into it? I never do that. Neither did my PO, who told me what he did to winterize the motor when I bought the boat.

DrB


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## stuffinbox (Oct 19, 2006)

If the oil pumps out when cold, I be surprised if it makes a difference. If you warm the engine first, the oil will be less viscous and easier to pump out. However, if your pump can handle it I can also see a benefit for pumping out cold: you *may* get more oil out because it has time to settle in the bottom (for the same reason, you only check your oil level when the engine is cold.)

I'm also surprised that they change the oil as part of the winterizing. I think I read somewhere that you're better off changing oil in the spring. Some condensation may collect during layup periods and so if you change oil after the layup, you will also pump out the water with the oil. Maine Sail's suggestion of running the engine before the layup to minimize moisture during the layup also sounds like a good one, as does preventing air getting in with saran wrap and does running the engine after any oil change (so as to circulated oil and protect parts from corrosion).

As I understand it, the important step of any layup is to remove water from places where it may freeze and break whatever it is contained within -- results may be a cracked engine or a sunk boat.



Bene505 said:


> I heard somewhere that you have to start an engine and get the oil warm prior to changing the oil. The oil change is about to be done at the marina, and I think they aren't going to start the engine first. Is this a problem?
> 
> As a side note, the marina manager seems very adamant about winterizing our sailboat this morning, and not waiting until I can be there to watch. I would like to learn how to do it, and I also like to oversee what's going on. (Maybe not a good comparison, but Jiffy Lube once tried to start my car engine before the other mechanic had put oil back in.) She's been waiting for this event for 2 weeks now. Is this normal, that they would have a small time window? Do you usually watch or attend these types of things?


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## Pamlicotraveler (Aug 13, 2006)

Maine Sail said:


> #5 Add 3-4 gallons of engine rated non-toxic antifreeze to the bucket. It's usually labeled -60 or -100, but DO NOT dilute.
> 
> #6 Start engine and suck antifreeze through it until hose is empty and making sucking sounds.
> 
> #7 Remove impeller


Maine Sail (still Halekai in my mind) 

Why do you need to remove the impeller if you've pumped anitfreeze through?


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

DrB said:


> Why do you drain essentially all the AntiFreeze from the motor/exhaust lines after you put it into it? I never do that. Neither did my PO, who told me what he did to winterize the motor when I bought the boat.
> 
> DrB


Antifreeze is not necessarily good for rubber hoses. I also don't want it sitting in my fiberglass waterlift muffler evaporating into the interior of my boat after I disconnect the exhaust hose to seal the exhaust manifold. I suppose I could just plug the exhaust hose but a few turns for the drain screw is easier. Also the waterlift had water in it before you started sucking in antifreeze which can dilute the antifreeze that shuld not be diluted.

We can see 30 below zero so I prefer to know there is less in there that could freeze. I also drain my HX and fridge HX (engine driven refrigeration) after antifreezing it. I've seen my fair share of owners with split stuff over the years up here, usually because of dilution. Sucking in one or two gallons is usually not enough to sustain a 20 below zero stretch that's why I do about 4 gallons then also drain as much as I can on the raw water side..

One thing I forgot to mention is that you should always check the sealed side of the system for freeze & boil points and add antifreeze as necessary before winter..


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

stuffinbox said:


> I'm also surprised that they change the oil as part of the winterizing. I think I read somewhere that you're better off changing oil in the spring. Some condensation may collect during layup periods and so if you change oil after the layup, you will also pump out the water with the oil.


Oil is changed in the fall so that the acids that form from as a result combustion don't sit there etching and damaging the innards of the engine all winter long.

As for condensation forming inside the engine that usually only happens during a cold start or if you don't seal off the intake and exhaust manifolds. If you don't feel like sealing off the exhaust manifold at least drain the water lift muffler so that the antifreeze is not evaporating and condensing inside the exhaust valve side of the engine.

Visual condensation on the exterior of an engine block is normally caused by a boat stored with a wet bilge and what happens on the out side is not necessarily what happens on the inside of the engine. Always store your boat with a dry bilge and things will be much fresher in the spring. Solar vents help too unless your cover is too dark for them to work..



Pamlicotraveler said:


> Maine Sail (still Halekai in my mind)
> 
> Why do you need to remove the impeller if you've pumped anitfreeze through?


Because anti-freeze is bad for many impeller compounds and can shorten the life span. I replace my Impeller yearly anyway and use the one I took out as a spare for the next season. I'd rather not have my spare exposed to a winters worth of antifreeze.


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## DrB (Mar 29, 2007)

*Maine Sail, thanks.*

Good info. I'm heading to the boat this weekend, so I may drain the AF from the Raw Water pump and pull the impeller. The less fluid in the engine, the better.

I am a little further south than you and it hasn't got much below -5 deg F for any extended time since I have lived here in the last 15 years. -30 is pretty damn cold. Geez if someone forgets or does a poor job of winterizing their motor, that could be some serious damage.

I do keep my bilge dry in the winter.

DrB


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

Maine Sail said:


> ...Because anti-freeze is bad for many impeller compounds and can shorten the life span. I replace my Impeller yearly anyway and use the one I took out as a spare for the next season. I'd rather not have my spare exposed to a winters worth of antifreeze.


MaineSail,

Good advice all around. But I would argue that some of the extra steps you take are not as vital in the less frigid, shorter-layup regions. Down here on the Chesapeake, we are talking about 10 weeks or so of winter lay-up, rather than 10 months like up in Maine! 

I used to pull the impeller as you do after winterizing. But I stopped doing that some years ago. I now leave it in for the winter and replace it in the spring with a new one. With this approach I only take the pump apart once in March, and eliminate one more aggravation in December.

I do keep a _new_ impeller handy as a spare -- if I have to take the trouble/time to swap impellers, I want to put a new one in rather than a used one.


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

Bene505 (aka, Brad),
Welcome to the wonderful world of boat yards! You wish they would do just what you want, how you want it, when you want it and that is just not the case in my experience (or yours from what I hear). They 'schedule' their work and you are lucky if they will haul you and put you back in on a day that you select. My experience is that smaller yards can actually handle some last minute requests but usually their 'resources are already allocated' and can't be spared for the 20 - 30 minute job you want to have done right away. Most boat yards are also not 'working' over the weekend unless they want to pay overtime to their help.
That is why all of these helpful people have chimed in with good advice to your question(s). MaineSail is about the most anal boat owner their is (AFAIK) and his advice is golden if a bit of overkill. Winterizing an engine (be it diesel or gasoline) is not so difficult or time consuming but it is just one less item for you to have to pay for (at a high price) once you know how to do it yourself. As you like to say: "I don't mind spending money - I just do not like to waste it." 
I would be happy to help you warm up your engine (while still in Mosquito Creek in Glen Cove) and change your oil (which should be done in the fall and spring) before they pull your boat. We would just need to get a Jabsco oil pump: http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|311|296536|314179&id=122092
or the slightly less regarded Shur-flo model that I use to suck the oil out of the engine.
Once you participate in doing it you will never forget how to do it and you will save yourself a whole lot of worry, frustration and money. You will also have the oil pump to do it with come springtime.
Just a thought. I can be available this weekend if it is not too late. PM or email me if interested (you also have my phone #).
On the other hand, I have even drained my own engine oil without first warming the engine when the ambient temps. were fairly warm although I agree with all the preceding posts. You should also learn how to run your engine on the hard and set up cooling water for the heat exchanger on your boat as you may need to do this in the future and it does not hurt to learn a bit about your engines systems. Personally, I like to do what can be done in the water without having to take the more extreme measures of running the engine on the hard whenever possible. 
This afternoon I just removed the carburator from our gas engine and took it apart and cleaned it and am still looking for my own slightly pregnant gas leak! At least your diesel is less than 10 years old whereas my Atomic 4 gas engine is 41 years old.
You know where to find me if you wish to.
My best,
CalebD


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

JohnRPollard said:


> MaineSail,
> 
> Good advice all around. But I would argue that some of the extra steps you take are not as vital in the less frigid, shorter-layup regions. Down here on the Chesapeake, we are talking about 10 weeks or so of winter lay-up, rather than 10 months like up in Maine!


I would agree and as a matter of fact I know of very few up this way who seal of the intake and exhaust manifolds. I do see lots of "low hour" engines replaced though and ours has almost 3k and shows no signs of wear and oil analysis comes back nearly perfect... When it comes to my engine I do go overboard but it's better than forking out 10-15k for a new engine every 1200-1600 hours as I see many boaters doing..



JohnRPollard said:


> MaineSail,
> 
> I used to pull the impeller as you do after winterizing. But I stopped doing that some years ago. I now leave it in for the winter and replace it in the spring with a new one. With this approach I only take the pump apart once in March, and eliminate one more aggravation in December.


My pump is also only taken apart once. I pull the plate and impeller and leave it off with the screws taped to the cover plate. In the spring I re-install the new impeller and put the cover plate back on..



JohnRPollard said:


> I do keep a _new_ impeller handy as a spare -- if I have to take the trouble/time to swap impellers, I want to put a new one in rather than a used one.


I keep a new one too but also keep last years spare as a back up to the back up. I've yet to ever need to install a used impeller but with the remoteness of parts of this area and lack of parts availability I like to have two of them... I rotate out the used spare each year as time can have an effect on the rubber too...


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## c40eb (Sep 12, 2002)

Pamlicotraveler said:


> Maine Sail (still Halekai in my mind)
> 
> Why do you need to remove the impeller if you've pumped anitfreeze through?


What I've read also says that if an impeller sits for too long without moving, the vanes can take a set in the position they're in. So, as some vanes are bent against the side of the pump, they can set bent, and when run in the spring, not return to straight.


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

Caleb, they did it yesterday, from what I understand. Next time. Back when I had an old car, I replaced a broken starter motor in 20 minutes before a rain storm came. I must have thought I was pretty hot stuff. I'm not there with big diesels yet.

I'm going to talk to them and see what was done and what wasn't. That was the deal when they did it without my being there. I'm going to see if I can talk with the mechanic.

Not for this thread maybe, but I just found a small hole in my jib. Size-wise, I could push 2 toothpicks thriugh it at the same time. So I'm going to send that off to the Doyle loft with my spinnaker that has some tears in it. I simply don't want the jib coming apart in the next BFS (or a Medium FS for that matter). That and maybe they'll see something else that needs attention.


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## Rockter (Sep 11, 2006)

If you are worried about the impeller deforming, then as long as the water is not frozen, just turn the motor a wee bit each time you visit the ship.

Not every one is into maintenence. On a long haul you have to be into it, or have someone along who is.

Changing the engine oil is a simple one, given a wee bit of tuition.....

Go to boat.
Warm the motor.
Stop motor.
Suck out the engine oil via the dipstick hole (rarely is there a usable drain plug).
Suck out the gearbox oil via the dipstick hole (ditto).
Take off engine oil filter using a wee chain wrench.
Put on new engine oil filter, hand tight.
Refill engine oil.
Refil gearbox oil.
Start motor.
Stop motor.
Make tea with milk.
Drink tea.
Wash cup.
Go home again.


If you are improvising a coolant supply with a hose when your boat is on the hard, make sure you don't turn the hose on until the motor is running and make sure you switch off the hose before you stop the motor. You must, or the motor just floods a few of the cylinders via their exhaust valves to the brim with water. 
If it happens, your first warning will the heart-stopper of seeing water dripping out of your air filters. Don't despair, but don't start the motor. Pull the injectors out (not the biggest of jobs) and suck the water out of all the cylinders, by mouth with a drinking straw if you must, or use a wee oil lift pump, or something. I have had to do that for other reasons.... not the hose error.... but an error nearly as bad.

Now run you engine for a minute or two and check your oil colour. If it turns a horrible mustard-green, you've got water in the sump (past the rings), and you need to change the oil and filter. It will still be OK though, as long as the water is not left in there too long.

Sometimes a tired O-ring on your water pump will squirt water into the motor at the water pump housing. The symptoms are similar.... mustard oil. It is easy to fix. I had that one too.

The motor is still running well, 11 years on.
.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

Rockter said:


> If you are improvising a coolant supply with a hose when your boat is on the hard, make sure you switch off the hose before you stop the motor, and don't turn the hose on until the motor is running. You must, or the motor just floods a few of the cylinders to the brim with water. If it happens, your first warning will the heart-stopper of seeing water dripping out of your air filters. Don't dispair, but don't start the motor. Pull the injectors out (not the biggest of jobs) and suck the water out, by mouth with a drinking straw if you must, or use a wee oil lift pump, or something. I have had to do that for other reasons.... not the hose error.... but an error nearly as bad.
> 
> The motor is still running well, 11 years on.


Sorry but NEVER, NEVER, NEVER connect any PRESSURIZED hose directly to a marine engines raw water intake RUNNING OR NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Many boat yards and marinas are on city water supplies with "street pressures" in the range of 100 PSI and 6-10+ gallons per minute. If you don't hydrolock the engine you will blow out the seals in the water pump. Connecting pressurized water to an inboard engine is a HUGE NO NO..

You should ALWAYS use an in/out bucket and let the raw water pump do as it is designed to do suck water at it's own pace and flow rate. Remember raw water pumps are driven off the engine and move less water at low RPM and more water at high RPM. At low RPM most hose spigots will overcome the flow rate of the water pump, unless you have a very, very weak water supply. The pressurized water from the hose will fill the waterlift muffler and then back up into the cylinders. If this happens when the engine is running you can do serious damage to the engine as water is NOT compressible. I tried to talk a guy out of doing this a few years ago when he ame over to borrow my hose, but he "knew everything". I even offerd to set it up and get it running for him as I had my in/out bucket kit with me. About 45 minutes later he came back with his tail between his legs and about 12k lighter in the wallet. He had hydrolocked his engine at 1800 RPM while attempting to test fire it before launch. Needless to say he never launched on time..

In a gravity hydro-lock or one that occurs with the engine off it is a fixable event though it will take 6-12 oil & filter changes, depending upon the engine, to fix the issue. The valve cover should also be removed as water can get trapped up there despite numerous oil changes.

Always use an in/out bucket. Also if your in/out bucket is located in teh cockpit and is higher than the engines siphon break it will siphon after shut down and can still hydrolock your engine. ALWAYS pull the hose from the bucket it is sucking from and let it clear the water before shutting down the engine..

The clear hose goes straight to the sea strainer and sucks from the bucket. The yellow hose is a garden hose and keeps the bucket full. This prevents connecting direct PRESSURE to the raw water pump...

Having worked in boat yards I have fixed hydro-lock events and seen many of them destroy engines. A fair amount of them were caused by un-informed owners connecting pressurized water hoses directly to the engine.


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## Rockter (Sep 11, 2006)

Bucket next time then. I must have got lucky about 5 times then. I did not start the hose until the motor was running and did not stop the motor until the hose was stopped. I guess it must depend on the rate of delivery.... the was a choke fitting on the end of the hose.

I did contaminate the motor with water when a coolant O-ring failed, and things got rather mustardy. A pump out and about 2 oil changes, and a long run, and the motor was OK... at least the oil was transparent. The water does boil off in the end. I have seen it do so on motorcycles.


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## M275sailer (Aug 29, 2008)

How would you winterize if you were unable to start the motor for some reason?


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