# Deception pass with the current? Bad idea?



## matthewwhill (Dec 10, 2012)

A question for the Northwest sailors:

I generally read that one should time a trip through Deception Pass so as to do it at slack current.

What is the drawback of going through with the current? Is there a risk of turbulence and eddies and rips too great when the current is at it peak?


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## rockDAWG (Sep 6, 2006)

Since the current is pretty high - up to 7 knots, if you ride the current you would not have much control of your boat especially it is a sailboat. 

Just my educated guess, I have never sailed in PNW.


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## johnnyquest37 (Feb 16, 2012)

Here is the drawback: 




When I sailed int he PNW, we were pretty diligent about timing our transit of passes at slack water.


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## matthewwhill (Dec 10, 2012)

Yes, I've seen this video. I would never attempt to go against the current.... My question was rather would it be a bad idea to go with the current.

Thanks


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

While that boat was trying to get up-current, you can still see the wave action, the problem with other traffic (who may themselves lose control at any moment), the eddies and overfalls that could prove dangerous despite the 'thrill' of groundspeeds in double digits.

We have our share of such passes in BC.. we always shoot for slack but with an eye for whether it's 'better to be early' or 'better to be late' if you miss it. Also some slacks are very shortlived so you end up fighting current anyway. Others' predicted times are not always precise either..

Plenty of stories of narrows where 50 foot logs are spit out like torpedoes at random too.

When you're very familiar with a particular rapid and 'know' its ins and outs that opens up wider windows of opportunity, but at the end of the 'successful' day, choosing slack is the best way to go.

EDIT to add: we routinely visit friends in Pender Harbour who's dock is through a very narrow shallow tidal pass (impassable for us at less than 4 foot tide) and much prefer slack, or even better, a slight counter current. Very difficult to judge groundspeed and positioning within the narrow channel that requires a precise S turn when current is adding to your speed.


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## johnnyquest37 (Feb 16, 2012)

matthewwhill said:


> Yes, I've seen this video. I would never attempt to go against the current.... My question was rather would it be a bad idea to go with the current.
> 
> Thanks


Going with too much current is worse than going against too much. When you are running with a swift current, you lose steering. Best is slack water or a slight contrary current.


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## djodenda (Mar 4, 2006)

I've been through Deception Pass several times.. I've become more aggressive about when I go through now ... Only slack water the first few times.. I've fought up to about 3.5 knots and ridden with about 6 knots. It certainly is turbulent (Mostly to the west on an ebb) but pretty manageable.

The log tows only go through at slack, so you don't have to worry about them when the current is running..

My biggest concern is getting hit by a log when things get interesting there.

So.. I don't have an answer, just ideas... Without a secondary issue (engine issues, logs, traffic) it's no big deal.. but you can get into trouble pretty quickly if something else goes wrong....


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

Deception Pass gets serious back eddys. If you are going with the current and catch part of the boat in a back eddy then you could really lose control of the boat quite quickly. When I've kayaked in Deception Pass at max current it is fun to play right on the eddylines, but I have no desire to do that on a sailboat.

I also haven't found too much reason to go through Deception Pass if you are sailing from Seattle up to the San Juan Islands. If conditions are bad enough that you want to hide behind Whidbey Island then you'll also likely want to take the canal that goes up towards Bellingham to stay sheltered. If the conditions are good then it is a lot faster to go up Admiralty Inlet where the winds are stronger and the ~2kt currents can be used in your favor. The main attraction is just that Deception Pass is very pretty.


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## djodenda (Mar 4, 2006)

johnnyquest37 said:


> Going with too much current is worse than going against too much. When you are running with a swift current, you lose steering. Best is slack water or a slight contrary current.


I hate to open this up again, but steerage has to do with how fast you are going through the water, not how fast the water itself is moving...


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## johnnyquest37 (Feb 16, 2012)

djodenda said:


> I hate to open this up again, but steerage has to do with how fast you are going through the water, not how fast the water itself is moving...


True enough in laminar flow, and when the velocity of the water remains constant. This is not the case in real-world situations as far as these passes are concerned. Water flow varies in speed and direction (hence eddies) during flood and ebb at these passes. Whitewater conditions can occur. This results in flow under the bow being potentially different than flow under the stern, resulting in loss of control, i.e. loss of steering.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

If you want to experience fast water, but not that fast, it is worth checking out Agate Pass (north end of Bainbridge Island) and Cattle Pass (between Lopez and San Juan Islands). I've sailed through both at max flood. It's fun going 9 knots in a sailboat with a 6 knot hull speed.

Poulsbo makes a nice overnighter destination from your slip on Lake Washington and Agate Pass is on the way there.


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

That video is impressive. Wouldn't want to loose power in that waterway.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Going with a strong current, anywhere, has only one problem in the typical sailboat.

No brakes!

Other than that, if you don't mind being stuck at full throttle, so to speak, it shouldn't be any problem. As long as you have power and steerage and don't mind "No brakes!"


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

have not been thru deception, been thru agate, cattle, tacoma narrows and the one on the south end of bainbridge. All generally speaking with the current, altho I did do agate against a 2 or so knot current. Going with is usually not too much of an issue in those places. Certainly easier the going up at times! Obviously the first few times you try some of these places, do it as close to slack as you can, with going in just ahead with current against you, then hopefully if you do not get thru during slack, you have some current with you the rest of the way thru! I'll take with over against most of the time.

Marty


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## kellysails (Nov 1, 2008)

I did Deception Pass about 20 years ago in a stalwart SeaSport 22 cabin cruiser. Tough boat. We were going Westward. We hit it an hour after slack and going with the current. No problem until about 200 yards past the bridge when we hit massive standing waves due to the tide change. Not so worried about the speed of the current but those waves can be horrendous. VERY steep! Had to change my shorts after that little adventure. I won't touch that pass, power or sail, unless I am dead on slack tide.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Kelly,

How fast were you ging in the Sea Scout when you hit those waves? I would bet 20+ mph would be different than 4-5 knots the OP would be going, or 6 that I go in my sailboat! Same with your SB vs a PB!

marty


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

Our experience was in Seymour Narrows, near Campbell River in a 16 foot fishing boat. Looks similar to the video. As mentioned above, if you become VERY familiar with the prevailing, ongoing conditions, you might try it but slack water may be your friend. Quite impressive to watch from a distance, like close to Brown's Marina 

Paul T


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## erps (Aug 2, 2006)

Deception Pass is in our backyard. We go through with the current all the time, we actually plan our transits to be there with a flood or an ebb. The exception is if it's an ebb and there is a strong westerly wind. Under those conditions, the waves stack up underneath the bridge and they're steep.


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## kellysails (Nov 1, 2008)

blt2ski said:


> Kelly,
> 
> How fast were you ging in the Sea Scout when you hit those waves? I would bet 20+ mph would be different than 4-5 knots the OP would be going, or 6 that I go in my sailboat! Same with your SB vs a PB!
> 
> marty


SeaSport 22. After burying the bow on the first wave and shipping water over the entire length of the boat I dropped down to 4 or so knots. Then started to successfully quarter the waves. These waves were a good 6-7 feet. My sailboat would likely do much better. My daughter was laughing, me not so much.


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## kellysails (Nov 1, 2008)

erps said:


> Deception Pass is in our backyard. We go through with the current all the time, we actually plan our transits to be there with a flood or an ebb. The exception is if it's an ebb and there is a strong westerly wind. Under those conditions, the waves stack up underneath the bridge and they're steep.


Yup, that was my exact situation. Although the waves were a bit west of the bridge when I hit them. I am not from that neck of the woods and with my past experience I am set on slack only passages. Yes, maybe I'm a wimp


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## kellysails (Nov 1, 2008)

blt2ski said:


> have not been thru deception, been thru agate, cattle, tacoma narrows and the one on the south end of bainbridge.
> 
> Marty


We go through Agate every month or so. Our record SOG 10.5 knots, really enjoy that run. No waves Although, at high tide the VHF antenna on the mast just barely clears the bridge, I don't look up any longer And we dodge the clearance light the hangs down from the center of the bride, it hangs down a couple feet at least.


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## donlofland (Dec 8, 2008)

Though I've typically tried to pass the pass on a slack current, more often than not I'm ~an hour late, with the current in my favor. No problem then, with the current adding 2-3 knots to my knot meter speed.

Interesting to see the sailboat trying to come the other way, though, getting veered broadside to their oncoming current-so I try to make the slack when it will become favorable if I'm late.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

johnnyquest37 said:


> Going with too much current is worse than going against too much. When you are running with a swift current, you lose steering. Best is slack water or a slight contrary current.


We travel through the area on the East River called Hell Gate which can carry a similar current of up to 7 knts through its narrowest parts. I have never come through at MAXX current against but have often used the current at MAX with. It is a little like black ice and certainly there is a feeling of less control, and yes there are eddies, but I would liken it to being out of control. It is no different than surfing waves on a broad reach ( actually smoother because there are no waves). The danger would occur if we suddenly lost power and had to manuever.

I do not usually subscribe to the theory of passing through at slack tide, because that is also the time most commercial and larger vessels will laos transit the area thus increasing traffic in a narrow area and therefore increasing the danger.

Heading against the beginning of the flow through this area or the Hell gate doesnt area doesnt work either as you will be working your way against an increasing flow througout the rest ofn your passage.

The conditions have to be asscessed each time you do it taking into account wind also. When you travel with the cuirrent you are quickly through the danger area also instead of spending more time and prolonging your exposure to abborant or accompanying eddies and currents

Here is a photo of our Chartploltter showing 11 knokts SOG just outside Hell Gate. We have come through and seen maximum SOG speeds of 13.4. Also a photo of Hell gate entrance ( East and Harlem Rivers junction)


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

> I do not usually subscribe to the theory of passing through at slack tide, because that is also the time most commercial and larger vessels will laos transit the area thus increasing traffic in a narrow area and therefore increasing the danger.


There is that.... we have a few particularly devious narrows where slack is most definitely preferred, and we can have some real traffic jams as a result. Here's an example.. however transiting at high flowing conditions in this one is also quite risky....










Image from Panoramic


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Faster said:


> There is that.... we have a few particularly devious narrows where slack is most definitely preferred, and we can have some real traffic jams as a result. Here's an example.. however transiting at high flowing conditions in this one is also quite risky....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes...I could see that as risky. It really depends on the area and weather too. Genrally I like arriving 1 hour after slack for the transit. I can sit and wait if it is still clogged or get through at a faily controllable speed. Its hard to generalize on each situatition. I certainly would want to head out the Colombia River Bar with opposing wind and current.

Dave


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## kellysails (Nov 1, 2008)

I played chicken with a fast moving log coming my way at Dodd Narrows. Luckily I was in a nimble stink pot at the time. That is an incredible cruising ground up there. Lucky you for being so close to it.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

johnnyquest37 said:


> True enough in laminar flow, and when the velocity of the water remains constant. This is not the case in real-world situations as far as these passes are concerned. Water flow varies in speed and direction (hence eddies) during flood and ebb at these passes. Whitewater conditions can occur. This results in flow under the bow being potentially different than flow under the stern, resulting in loss of control, i.e. loss of steering.


In our area if we shied away from running passes in current we would never get anywhere. We sometimes have to ride 5-6kt currents through 2 passes just to get out of our home port. I have run plenty of passes, and I can't say that I have ever come close to losing steerage. Sure, you have to fight some eddies that want to spin you around, but as long as you have the throttle down it is not an issue. The biggest concern I have when shooting passes are standing waves and debris.


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## Dean101 (Apr 26, 2011)

johnnyquest37 said:


> True enough in laminar flow, and when the velocity of the water remains constant. This is not the case in real-world situations as far as these passes are concerned. Water flow varies in speed and direction (hence eddies) during flood and ebb at these passes. Whitewater conditions can occur. This results in flow under the bow being potentially different than flow under the stern, resulting in loss of control, i.e. loss of steering.


My first thought when some mentioned the chance of loss of steerage when running with a fast current was agreement. I only have experience with a steady river current but I would think that when running with any current, if the boat speed is near the same as the speed of the current then the rudder would have little effect on direction since the relative speed of water flow over the rudder surface is minimal. (How's that for a run on sentence?) Will most sailboat engines/props still effectively push the boat in those conditions? Would I be right in thinking that an engine capable of pushing the boat at, say, 6 kts in slack water would add that 6 kts to the speed of the current, say 7 kts, for a SOG of 13 kts or would the prop be operating in disturbed or cavitating water and so be less effective?


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

Dean101 said:


> My first thought when some mentioned the chance of loss of steerage when running with a fast current was agreement. I only have experience with a steady river current but I would think that when running with any current, if the boat speed is near the same as the speed of the current then the rudder would have little effect on direction since the relative speed of water flow over the rudder surface is minimal. (How's that for a run on sentence?) Will most sailboat engines/props still effectively push the boat in those conditions? Would I be right in thinking that an engine capable of pushing the boat at, say, 6 kts in slack water would add that 6 kts to the speed of the current, say 7 kts, for a SOG of 13 kts or would the prop be operating in disturbed or cavitating water and so be less effective?


For the most part you can add your boatspeed over water to the current over ground. I guess there would be some loss of efficiency of the prop in very turbulent water, and of course waves will slow you down just as they would in open waters, but I have never noticed a decrease in the effectiveness of my rudder.


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## jrd22 (Nov 14, 2000)

Erps said " The exception is if it's an ebb and there is a strong westerly wind. Under those conditions, the waves stack up underneath the bridge and they're steep. " Ray is the resident expert and when he says "steep" he ain't kidding, as in 6-8' vertical walls of water. Check the winds at Smith Island when you're planning your trip through Deception.


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## BrianH (Nov 22, 2017)

Just a fellow boater and observer here, reopening this topic to be more specific. I've been through deception in a motor yacht several times and once went through (running with, not against) with the current running about 7 kts. i had to manhandle the steering pretty aggressively but otherwise was not a problem.
My related question is this: I've Googled about as much as i can on this and i just don't see stories of boats going down or in serious trouble going through deception pass, are there any statistics showing it is a problem?
For example, what if you did lose steering for a moment? wouldn't the current keep pushing you through? I know every experienced captain will say "just go through at slack tide" and yes obviously this is safer, but seriously I wonder if going through "with" the current simply pushes you through and this is why there are few or no stories of serious problems...


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Don't think it's that simple.. Personally I find we have more control over the situation when moving against the current, but only if it's not running hard (a knot or two at most)

Riding the river down any tidal narrows can be harrowing.. without any control I think you run the risk of getting pulled into an eddy, perhaps one close enough to shore to be a grounding risk. Many narrows are also often known for randomly ejecting flotsam, logs etc.

I think the 'few' stories are due to people exercising caution and common sense.

This situation didn't look too difficult to start with.. til the barge took over


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Haven't been in Deception pass, but operated boats under similar conditions.

There are a few things that can mess you up. Eddie's are a big one. Boils, sweepers, Haystacks. If heading down stream, you've got to be moving faster than the current to have any control, plus the airated water makes your control surfaces less effective, so you're probably going 10 knots over the ground to maintain control in a 7 knot current.

If you don't know what you're doing, that's moving pretty quick if you hit bottom, a sweeper or a canyon wall.

If you want to play in strong currents recommend starting off bow into the current to learn control. Practice peeling off and interacting with eddie's and boils in small water, work your way up as skills improve. Only run it once you have become experienced approaching the current from down stream.

Sailboats can be funny in strong currents because the surface current can be so different than the current 4' down.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Anytime you "go with the current" you basically HAVE NO BRAKES. Going at slack, you can at least depower the boat and slow down if needed. Going with the current? "No Brakes!".
Which is just fine, if you trust that you can just shoot through.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

johnnyquest37 said:


> Going with too much current is worse than going against too much. When you are running with a swift current, you lose steering. Best is slack water or a slight contrary current.


That is a misconception. The boat doesn't know it's in a fast current. If you are doing 4 knots through the water in current the rudder will turn the boat just the same as being in slack water.

Jeff


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Jeff_H said:


> That is a misconception. The boat doesn't know it's in a fast current. If you are doing 4 knots through the water in current the rudder will turn the boat just the same as being in slack water.
> 
> Jeff


This is, of course, true.. but I find that your timing and judgement are skewed by the increased ground speed. We regularly transit a very tight pass with a mid channel rock followed by a ledge off the right shore. Making that 'S' turn is far less stressful at slack or when fighting the current than going downriver.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Lots of nice theorizing in this thread but the bottom line is: What if your engine dies? Murphy states that it will happen at the worst possible time.

Or, alternatively, "Look at the penalty for failure dude".

Going through the fast passes around here when they are flowing fast is a very poor idea - many of them are the equivalent of white water rivers.

Listen to Faster - he knows whereof he speaks.


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

Entering a pass with the current can be exciting as the water picks up speed faster than the hull accelerates. This means the rudder behaves like you are going in backup. Example , going south with the ebb at Dodds Narrows easily puts your bowsprit in the bushes. Personal experience ,,going into Hidden Basin 38' tri sideways ,,Swept into a tethered log boom as the current goes under it while boat tries to go thru it. Current can submerge fish scotsmen and no way can you avoid at 10 knts. Even open ocean can be amusing. Once came upon a large ice berg doing at least 3 knots north of Point Barrow. Flat calm .Took a moment to realize it was grounded and my world was moving.(pre GPS) As a kid, ran Ripple Rock many times both flood and ebb.You get to know violent waters as you go round and round as the aEasthope slowly pulls you out of a hole in the chuck.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

SloopJonB said:


> Lots of nice theorizing in this thread but the bottom line is: What if your engine dies? Murphy states that it will happen at the worst possible time.
> 
> Or, alternatively, "Look at the penalty for failure dude".
> 
> ...


I definitely see what you are saying, I cant think of any time that's a good time to lose your engine when motoring in a strong current (anything over a couple of knots), and personally I think its imprudent to operate any boat in a current that exceeds the boats top speed (or hull speed in the case of most sailboats).

But BrianH asked about Deception Pass, which is quite googleable.

Considering Deception Pass in terms of metrics, the tide tables indicate maximum current, in the neighbourhood of 8 knots. Which is too strong for most sailboats by a knot or two in my opinion. It is relatively deep and about 360 feet wide at its narrowest. There is a single gentle curve to the right (flood) or slight turn to the left (ebb). For folks that like to intentionally take boats into white water, I think you could call that Class II or a non technical III. Its a fairly short, fairly straight flush through the narrows.

_Class II 
Rapids of moderate difficulty with small waves and some obstacles. May require some manoeuvring.

Class III 
More numerous, higher and irregular waves; some rocks and eddies; rapids with clear but narrow passages requiring expertise in manoeuvring; scouting usually needed. 
_

Dodd Narrows I found to be about the same maximum strength- 8 knots. Maximum width of 233 feet with a similar single turn and a bottle neck. Its in the same territory as Deception Pass, but definitely more technical, which should make it a more challenging pass, but generally the same neighbourhood as the first pass.

Pender Harbour I wasn't able to find current strengths for, but looking at the topography, I am thinking it can get pretty strong. The narrowest pass appears to be about 250 ft, similar to Dodd, but Faster describes an S Turn with a rock in the middle, which would suggest a higher level of technical difficulty still.

Then also in the conversation we have the Skookumchuck Narrows, which includes the Sechelt Rapids. The maximum currents listed there this week are 15 knots and the rapids appear to be highly technical, a solid class 4.

_Class IV 
Longer rapids with higher, more irregular and some dangerous rocks and boiling eddies. The route is difficult to scout and requires powerful and precise manoeuvring. _

As a white water enthusiast, I definitely am enjoying the descriptions folks are sharing, however, all of these examples, at least from a white water metrics perspective, appear to be more advanced than Deception Pass. Current in isolation is nearly meaningless, as was mentioned above. Its how the current interacts with the topography that matters. Are there multiple bends deflecting the current requiring precise maneuvering, is there a rock garden, are there bays, spits or islands causing large powerful eddies, are there rocks or holes on the sea bottom deflecting water vertically up or down causing boils, are there sweepers caused by stray timber.

An 8 knot current still exceeds what I would be thrilled about running in pretty much any sailboat I could afford, but to be realistic, its kind of hard to measure against some of these other rapids in my opinion. My simple rule of thumb, is if I cant get up it, I don't really want to go down it (in a sailboat). My boats hull speed is about 5 knots, so that's what I would personally limit my current to. However, there are lots of 5 knot runs I wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole, and that's because of topography, not current strength.

Even the Sechelt Rapids has some fairly moderate tides, according to the current charts I have open on the interweb in front of me right now, the next max current on the flood is forecast to be 3.6 knots at 1856 this evening, which is a long way from some of the nearly 16 knot currents earlier in the month. The predicted currents for Deception Pass are predicted to generally max out at between 4 and 6 knots for most of this month, however, there are some nastier currents reaching close to 8 knots.

So, I think it kind of depends. Its one of those things that needs to be looked at one case at a time. Boat design, the skippers experience and ability, the nature of the tide and the topography and technical difficulty of the individual rapid in question. Generally though, I agree, slack tide or a slight head current sounds like it would be a lot easier and safer.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

It definitely 'depends'...

On the pass, and on the direction (ebb vs flood).

Locally I'm easy with entering the islands via Porlier pass on an ebb, even up to 3-4 knots - the outflow is within the islands, sheltered and a predictable curve towards Wallace Is. The flood, OTOH, heads out the Strait. I've seen insane conditions when even a minor flood meets a strong Westerly wind. However with heads up and looking around one could probably steer around the worst of the spoil area.

Gabriola is one where we prefer to hit close to slack, but slack is so shortlived you never really do..

Dodds is such a thoroughfare that it's a gong show traffic-wise at slack. It's narrow, but deep and in recent years we've been deliberately timing our passage an hour late (or early) to take advantage of the aiding current, and to avoid the crowd.

In passes with obstacles, we prefer to do at slack or against the tide, as previously mentioned.

When travelling north to beyond desolation there are a series of rapids that can be quite boisterous, and they require careful planning and timing, esp if you wish to do more than one set in the same day.

Some of the tidal lagoons at various anchorages up and down the coast can surprise you even in a dinghy... Tide is a powerful machine.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Jeff_H said:


> That is a misconception. The boat doesn't know it's in a fast current. If you are doing 4 knots through the water in current the rudder will turn the boat just the same as being in slack water.
> 
> Jeff


I don't agree. If your STW is 4 knots with a 4 kt current, your SOG is 8 kt. At a speed like that, your boat will have a lot of inertia that limits your ability to exert control. If you have have a bend that turns 30 degrees, your boat's inertia will make it tend to keep going straight. Turning the rudder may point the bow in the right direction, but the boat will still be sliding sideways due to inertia, and may heel severely as the keel "grabs" the water while the hull continues straight. All sorts of strange stuff will happen, all because of greater inertia caused by the current. So the boat does "know" it's in a fast current, and communicates it to the pilot through inertia.

Also, as a more practical matter, in this example you would be approaching any rocks or other obstacles at 8 knots, giving you very little reaction time under situations where inertia will make the boat's response unpredictable.

Given these facts, I would support the argument that going against a current gives you more control. Anyone who's ever had to dock in a high current area knows this.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I think that my comments on the impact of the rudder in current may not have been as clear as I would have liked them to be. I was not contesting the idea that current can make it harder to maneuver and can require greater care and awareness in navigating, piloting, and doing simple changes in course with the current increasing the turning radius over the bottom when with the current, or decreasing the radius when against it. 

My point is that the rudder still will change the course of the boat at the same rate that it would in still water. 

I saw Rich S's comment about momentum being greater and impacting the ability of the boat to change course. I admit that in theory it makes sense. When I lived in Savannah, I kept my boat at a marina which typically had 3-4 knots of current at peak ebb and flows currents. It was approached from a narrow channel requiring a tight 180 degree turn. In my experience, the impact of a swift current is so much larger that cannot recall being aware of the added momentum. I don't recall experimenting the boat heeling more than in a similar tight turn in still water, although I do recall heeling less when turning against the current. 

Jeff


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Definitely agree with Take5 on the inertia thing, I think that's what happened in the vid in post 32. The little tug tried to change the course of the big barge, but the barge had its own plans, which was to just keep on trucking, which led to the tug being girded and flipped. That was an extreme example of inertia at play in a current.

I ran jet boats for a while in the Niagara Gorge, you get some pretty solid currents there, pretty long rapids too. Any way, when those jet boats are picking up too much speed, or stuff is happening too fast, there is a way to put on the breaks. Jet drives aren't always the best in reverse just because of how the buckets work, and only a mad man would back a square sterned boat into a really serious current, so, one trick is to spin the boat 180 degrees through the current, present the bow to the current and power up. Once you match the speed of the current, every thing is cool, you can sit there all day and come up with a plan, catch your breath or do whatever you need to do. But, that 180 can be a great time to see that heeling due to inertia in play. Definitely a good time to hang onto something. Not a sailboat example, but its the same principles at play.

Somebody mentioned what happens if your engine dies, I am not recommending this practice, but you can control a boat in some pretty decent currents using the sails. We sail our beach cat quite a bit on a large river called the Ottawa River between two places called the Deschennes Rapids and the Barrage Des Chats. During the summer months, there isn't much current, but in the spring the currents can be strong enough, not like these scary west coast passes, but still pretty strong with some standing waves and a bit of white near shoals and the shore line in places. We don't have a motor on that boat at all, sails only. Sailing in those currents is super weird though, one thing is boils and current lines knocking you off course, but the bigger thing is apparent wind rules get completely messed up. Trying to sail upwind into a current is brutal, because the current knocks several knots off the apparent wind. Same thing with running down wind, with a current, as you get closer to the wind speed, you start losing power and control. However, the opposite in both scenarios give you a boost. 

Currents seem to change all the normal rules we get used to in relatively still water, so I definitely think practice in mild currents is a good idea before trying anything in bigger currents. And if your boat is going down stream in a current beyond its hull speed, you cant reach the brink and then change your mind, and nor can you stop part way down, deal with a problem or check your route, this is why I personally wouldn't take a sailboat in a current that exceeds its hull speed.


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

Inertia thing can happen on two different current scenarios. The first I mentioned that seemed to fall on deaf ears is when you fall into much faster current. Until you pick up speed or have a really special prop wash the water pushing the boat also is acting assbackwards on the rudder. You automatically turn the helm.. Oops, wrong way ..IN a second you're sideways and knocking down alder trees as you are swept down current over the rocks. That daily gong show Faster (Dodds) mentioned usually includes a couple of entertaining interludes to break the monotony of cruising in the lower BC islands. Further north at Campbell River large seine boats run south with the tide doing up to 22? knts over the ground to be stopped dead by a real back eddy. Really neat to see a 70 footer go ass over T to drift on south as CG trys to rescue or retrive bodies. One advantage of the decline of logging is that there are fewer logs popping out of up wellings.What gets sucked down in a real whirlpool comes up again over there,just as the over confident sailboater arrives. Weather you are fishing or trying to get somewhere reading the tide lines ,upwellings and other signs of the moving water is probably a good thing. even in a creek in the Chessie.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

SInce last post in this thread, I HAVE gone thru Deception, with a 4-6 knot current, doing 6 knots of water speed. Issue is what now?!?!?!? Going against as the one video shows, is not recommended. I;ve seen a Grand Banks many years ago try to get thru the narrow part against the current. Did a few 360's before stopping, and going out a bit to try again, after 2nd time, went out, then came back when the tide changed and went thru with out issues. 

Did Lopez pass last summer, 1 mile at speeds over 10 knots, some closer to 13 over ground. What a hoot it were! Keep speed up, should not be an issue. As noted tho, there can be currents, little whirl pools......whirl pools are more fun in a 30' boat, than same ones in a river in a 14' canoe!

Marty


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

I went through Gabriola pass with the current once when I was young and immortal. It can run over 7 knots and I was in a 20' bilge keel sailboat. I didn't know what I was doing but I remembered the old saying that still waters run deep so I stayed in the middle of the channel. Got rocked & rolled & jolted a bit but it was no problem. Sure got through in a hurry.

A guy went past me in a 26' Haida much closer to shore and I watched him do a full 360 in a whirlpool.


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## BrianH (Nov 22, 2017)

Great topic and i have to apologize: i'm a trawler guy not a sailor but i popped over here because i havent found definitive answer on trawler forums either, so thanks for letting me visit Sailnet.



blt2ski said:


> Since last post in this thread, I HAVE gone thru Deception---- I;ve seen a Grand Banks many years ago try to get thru the narrow part against the current. Did a few 360's before stopping, and going out a bit to try again, after 2nd time, went out, then came back when the tide changed and went thru with out issues. Marty


blt2ski partially makes my point here about a GB getting pushed but no harm done (though the GB was going _against_ the current).

To be more specific what happened to me that day, i went thru east with about a 7 kt Ebb current. To be honest i made the dumb mistake of trying to get somewhere on a schedule but it was a "growth experience" 
Anyway my trawler can get up into the teens, so i pushed the throttle and my SOG was about 15 so as to maintain some water flow over the rudder. Again it was a little squirrely but it was over pretty quick and soon we were cruising calmly past Strawberry island.
Someone else asked: what if you lose your engine? - good point but based on what i saw; yes we might have spun a little but it still seems unlikely to have hit anything. In fact it almost seems like even if i wanted to drive the boat to ground on either side of deception that day, i doubt i could have done it, the current likely wouldnt let me... There are no submerged rocks and depth is pretty consistent.
Again this whole thread started out of curiosity when i couldnt find any news stories of boats grounding or sinking at deception.


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

For experience to be useful it should apply to many situations ie different currents in a variety of passes.. If bucking a pass and find it's not doable or not worth it. Turning around may not be possible , would be prudent to just back off and let the current spit you back out.under control THis assumes there's not some clown in a GB in your wake . Many passes are not wide enough to swing my bowsprit while sweeping the bushes through a dogleg . Learning when to run with the current safely is satisfying. Perhaps sailing thru Surge to Octopus sans engine was a bit much but that was fun too.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

As much as I hate to admits, Jeff is absolutely correct - the boat doesn't know how fast it is going, and it does't care. I've traversed hundreds of inlets along the east coast, mostly in powerboats, but more than a dozen in sailboats, there is no difference when traveling in the same direction as the current or tide. The only scary part is when you reach the end of an inlet and there is a towering standing wave that you must bust through at full throttle or the boat will broach. Many sailboats are very underpowered and cannot do this - they are the ones that will be in trouble regardless of which direction in relation to the current they are traveling.

I have also traveled much of the length of the Susquehanna, Snake, Spokane and Columbia river in a small, aluminum boat with an 18-HP outboard motor. No trouble with any of them when going downriver through some horrendous rapids. The boat did just fine, but the captain was often scared to death.

Gary


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## aeaston (Aug 5, 2011)

Not familiar with these areas being discussed, but this summer, we made a rather uninformed decision departing from Tiverton, NS, at the mouth of the Bay of Fundy on the east coast of Canada. (Long story short, I would tend to recommend slack or near-slack water, and also daylight!)

Wanting to make really good headway away from the Fundy, we checked tides and discussed routes and departure time with a local fisherman in Tiverton.

We decided to leave just after high tide, at 1:30 AM, to take full advantage of the push from the falling tides in the Fundy to help cover more ground before they would turn back against us. We fortunately had the sense to circle in the tiny, calm, current-free man-made harbor for about 10 minutes to square away fenders and lines, and make sure no one was on-deck before we motored out.

We were making some wicked speed as soon as we hit the channel, and had to keep the engine at cruising RPM's in order to maintain steerage. Made about 12kts SOG in a 34' Grampian Ketch. That was all well and good, until we found the standing waves in the dark. Couldn't tell you how big they were, I didn't see them, but my wife described the wall of water before we hit it. We were taking some good water down the side decks, and some solid spray made it's way to the dodger. Wife was at the helm, I was holding on in the aft cabin companionway, and my father, not a sailor, was laughing from his seat in the cockpit until my wife told him that it was decidedly not funny.

I went forward to the vberth to check on our two year old son as soon as it was safe to move again. Our son had been sleeping up there. As he does in all ****ty weather, he had a huge grin on his face. "Are you OK buddy?" "Yeah." "We went through some big waves... did you have fun?" "Yeah!!"

The standing waves really didn't last long, but it was a situation that we had less control over once we had committed to it than I am comfortable with, and I am uneasy when I think back about what could have gone wrong. Lessons learned, no harm done. Do not recommend.

Attached a shot from google earth. It's a pretty straightforward passage, no turns, and good deep water all the way through.


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

Active Pass is one of the easier to transit passes around here. Have to keep an eye on bigger than you vessels but the currents are easy to read. Try You tube Queen of Victoria vrses russian freighter 1970. Ferry is bucking maybe 3 or 4 knts and incoming is coming on at good steerage speed plus probably 5 or6 knts current at the corner. Personally I doubt if freighter could have made the corner due to enertia and loss of rudder control as its stern enters the pass. Never know as the Queen got in the way. Friend lost wife and baby .Total 3 dead. So much for experts thinking boat will behave the same and a smidgen of experience is licence to run.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

My first love was working on the Queen during that incident. She had some bad memories.


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

WAs oiler on that Queen back when she was new.(62 3?) Before that on the Kalokee (sp?)Ex Sacramento Memory fades


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

The trees in the background is where the Queen of Alberni parked on the rocks in another incident. When the tide went out all the semi trailers slid into a pile on the low side.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Just finished reading the report on the active pass incident. Seems there were mistakes made on both sides, the BC ferry was on the wrong side of the channel according to witnesses, including a BC pilot who happened to be a passenger.

The lions share of the blame seemed to go to the fellow that had the conduct of the Russian freighter, but he was neither Russian, nor inexperienced. He was an experienced BC coast pilot.


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

If youv'e ever traveled the Rhine or the Rhone you'd be amazed at the communication needed by ALL the players to make it work. After the Queen Vic collision (after the Russian captain took over) they had to hand over to the Freighter hand held VHF's so they could get bridge to bridge com. A complete comedy of fatal screwups. Technical and legal maneuverings in court cloud the picture too.. If you are clueless enough to not be monitoring the radio for traffic you are a big problem. Assuming red to red and no surprises is a big problem too. The whole flavour of this thread is about how the nasty can happen unplanned even by supposedly trained clowns should lend some doubt in your personal confidence for operating beyond your skill level . Good luck if you ever get out in the real world.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I was just making the distinction that although it was a Russian ship, the Russian Captain didn't have conduct of the ship. It was a Canadian Captain, with local knowledge, including knowledge of the pass that was navigating the ship and making the decisions.


I could easily see how a reader who wasn't familiar with the conduct of large vessels could overlook this point. There was a Canadian Captain with local knowledge on the bridge of both ships. That's all I'm saying.


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