# How much of a hassle is cruising with guns?



## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

I apologize in advance for placing the words "cruising" and "guns" in the same sentence. My intent is NOT to start a flame-war about the pros and cos of such. I have no particular emotional attachment to this issue myself. I see firearms as a tool for an improbable what-if scenario. Below the sea-anchor and above bolt cutters for rig failure on my current list of emergency tools.

What I would like to know is the first hand experience of those who have cruised with firearms. How much of a hassle was it? Which countries did you visit or avoid? I'd love to hear a country by country list of what hassles, if any, you encountered.

I've seen a few websites that lay out the details for immigration and entry by country. Are there any good websites that list which countries are gun friendly/unfriendly and what the particular hassles are for each?

MedSailor
(hiding under a Nomex blankie...)


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Med...we did not travel with guns...but cruising buddies did in the Caribbean. Almost all the countries there required you to declare the guns and leave them with the police. This meant that you had to go BACK to your check in city to get your guns back...which was often to windward and almost always inconvenient. They experienced no hassles whatsoever...though the Gendarmes in the DR made repeated offers to buy their guns. Of course...if you don't declare and they are found, you can lose the boat. 
For the Caribe, regardless of any value judgements one has on the appropriateness of guns on board...it just does not make a lot of sense to me given the check in/out process and relative lack of violent crime. 
May be different elsewhere.


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

No problem, the Navy does it all the time. (g)

There are a couple of threads out there on this, one recent, and they weren't in "cruising" because I did a quick look-see. Suffice it to say that it's a big hassle at a minimum. The most sensible advise I have read posted here is to avoid those areas where you think there's a good reason to go there armed.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Not worth the hassle considering other legal means of protection available. I have a blow gun that I can hit a bird's head at 100 feet, and a crossbow that hurls a bolt at a higher velocity than a .38 caliber. Never had cause to pull either out of their packing, both are legal.

PS, I forgot the 22" machete.


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## Zanshin (Aug 27, 2006)

Cruising with firearms or items that could be classified as weapons is a big hassle. No, that isn't correct - it is in actuality a huge hassle. 

One recent example in the BVI is of an American visitor I met and spoke with who declared his collector-grade revolvers. When he wanted to leave one handgun was returned in a condition that made it seem as if it had been wrapped in salt-water soaked towels and the other was "lost" and never returned. Or a European sent to jail and fined because, although he had declared his firearm, a couple of 9mm rounds had found their way into cracks in the bilge and were discovered. Those are the benign stories.


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## BermudaHorst (Sep 18, 2007)

I can only tell you about Bermuda where firearms, ammunition and anything remotely resembling a firearm are forbidden. That includes flare pistols, air-guns and spearguns. They need to be declared on arrival and will be confiscated until you leave, a process which will be time consuming. An American lawyer from Arkansas traveling by air was recently arrested when a few rounds and a revolver were found on him (I'm not allowed to post links yet, but a quick google search will give you some articles). He's still in jail awaiting trial on June 23rd and can get up to 10 years.

-Horst


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## Zanshin (Aug 27, 2006)

MedSailor - note that I said it was hassle but I didn't state whether or not it was worth it. That topic is hotter and more sensitive than the long-running "mono vs. multi" war.


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## billyruffn (Sep 21, 2004)

MedSailor,

Sorry for the length of this post, but you asked for first hand experience -- here's mine. I won't comment on whether or not it's worth the hassle. I'll just tell the story and let you decide.

Scenario -- we're in the Caribbean and planning a trip to Alaska (think bears). I wanted to have a large caliber hunting rifle with me in the Alaskan wilderness. Last opportunity to get it on the boat was a quick trip home from St. Maarten in December (we were leaving for AK via Panama just after Christmas).

So -- before leaving St. Maarten for Christmas, I trot off to the customs office where I checked in the boat to inquire how I go about bringing the rifle back with me on the plane after Christmas. They referred me to a lady at the main customs office in Phillipsburg. She didn't know how to do it, but said she would ask the boss. When she couldn't get an official answer in time for my departure several days later, she told me that the big boss said to declare it when I got to the airport and she gave me his cell phone number in case I had any problems on arrival. (I won't go into the requirements for flying w/ a gun and ammo out of the US, but it's possible.)

On arrvial back in St. Maarten a couple of weeks later, as the baggage was coming off the carousel I wandered into the customs office and declared my rifle to two officers in black tactical gear. One, a tall, blonde very pretty Dutch lady, seemed very confused as to why anyone would do such a thing -- and didn't know how to handle it and seemed pretty cranky. She started calling around...I suggested she call the big boss and gave her his cell phone number (I think it helped that I had his private number because it indicated that I really had tried to arrange things a head of time). She call's the big boss and he's still not sure how to handle it. The problem was that the local law said you can't 'import' a firearm into St. Maaten without the permission of the Deputy Prime Minister and that you had to have an 'export' permit from the country of origin. I had neither. 

At that point said that I didn't want to 'import' it at all because I was 'in transit' and would be leaving shortly with the gun. I suggested that the customs officers hold it 'in bond' until I left. They were'n't sure how to do this, but it was eventually worked out -- they took the rifle and ammunition (in it's locked hard case) and copies of everything: my passport, my permit to carry, the paper from the TSA showing the gun had been inspected at the airport, etc. (An aside -- the more paperwork you have showing that you are licensed by your home government to carry firearms and that you have been reporting the movement of the firearm while you've been traveling the better off you'll be). They said to call the head office two days before I was ready to leave and they'd work out how to get the gun back to the boat.

Two days before the planned departure I called. I was told to show up at the main customs office in Philipsburg at 0800 the morning of our departure. I arrived a few minutes early and had coffee with a very nice customs guy who eventually handled the release of the rifle to me. BUT -- he said he'd have to drive me back to the boat. On the ride back to the boat, he gave me the background on what had happened -- customs in St. Maarten is concerned mostly with drugs and money laundering. Firearms was a 'police matter'. Customs had done me a favor by preventing my situation from becomming a 'local police matter' -- he didn't say why, but I inferred the local police are not flexible unless 'accomodated' in matters such as this. He needed to drive me to the boat because it was against the law for a private person to have a firearm on a 'public way' in St. M. We arrived at the marina, he gave me the rifle case, noted that the customs seals were not to be broken while in St. Maarten and I hopped in the dinghy and left that afternoon.

On arrival in Roadtown, Tortola I immediately went to the customs office to check in. It was about 15 minutes before closing. I filled out all the papers and was about to leave when I realized they had not asked if I had a firearm aboard. I mentioned that and the customs officer, a lady, sighed and said, "You're not going to do that to me, are you?" She said I was to report back to customs the next morning with the rifle at 0800 sharp. She also said she hoped I wasn't boarded in the interim because it would create a big problem. 

Next morning I show up at customs where I'm driven by a customs officer to the police station. There we spend about 45 minutes finding the guy who deals with guns on boats. Eventually, we find him and he 'logs' the gun into the BVI system. Again, copies of everything are taken, lots of papers are filled out, lots of signatures and I depart without the gun. Two weeks later, as we're ready to depart for the USVI we go through the same process, but this time I'm allowed to take a taxi back to the boat with the gun in the trunk of the taxi.

In the USVI no one asks about firearms at the customs office, but again I mention it and I'm told to just note it at the bottom of the custom's form. The gun stayed with us on the boat -- St. Maarten and BVI customs seals intact. I later learned that getting a gun permit in the USVI is a very complicated matter and that having a gun in the USVI without a permit gets you big fine and maybe a multi-year term in the local prison. I guess I was lucky.

In Puerto Rico, next stop, it was no problem.

In Panama, I mentioned it to my 'agent' and the conversation goes like this: "Is it your personal firearm?" 

I said, "Yes". 

He says, "Well, no problem -- don't declare it, lots of people have personal firearms here". 

A few days later I asked again and got the same answer -- it was best not to say anything. I didn't, no one asked, we had no problems or boardings etc, and we left w/ the gun on the other side.

In Costa Rica, I checked in and when at customs (CR check-in requires visits to four different offices), I filed a piece of paper with the boat papers and other forms they required that I titled (in Spanish) "Firearms Declaration". I included all the info on the rifle -- serial number, caliber, type of action, number of rounds, etc. The lady looked at it, put it on the bottom of the pile of papers that she took to a higher official to sign. Don't know if "el jefe" saw my declaration or not, but our clearance was immediately forth coming. No further questions asked. I later asked the marina owner about firearms in CR and he said the official position (national law) was they weren't allowed, but that they let the local customs guys handle it and they don't give any guidance to them on how to handle it, so the local customs guys tend to ignore the issue. I think this puts people like me at risk, but what are you going to do? I had no problems in CR or on checking out.

Hawaii -- I mentioned it to the customs guy at the end of the check-in, becasue he hadn't asked. I said, "You haven't asked me about booze, drugs or firearms like they do in other countries". 

He says, "Do you have any?" 

"Sure, lots of booze, perscripton narcotics and a rifle". 

He says, "Did you acquire the firearm abroad."

"No"

"Well, no problem then."

In BC, Canada, several months later -- I declared it. They took all the info over the phone. They also took my credit card number and charged me $25 for a temporary gun permit. They were much more interested in the case of rum, four cases of wine and two cases of beer I had aboard. They issued me a 'warning' and said to never come back into Canada with that much booze or they'd levy a significant duties on all of it.

Back in the States (Washington) -- No one asked, I said nothing and flew home with the rifle after winterizing the boat ashore.

While in AK, we saw lots of bears at a distance and always carried the gun while ashore in the wilderness. One day at a bear observatory a bear came within 20 feet, but he immediately backed off without incident. We enjoyed our long treks through the woods much more knowing we could protect ourselves. I'm not sure we would have enjoyed our time in the woods as much without the rifle. For me, it was just another piece of safety gear I hoped we'd never have to use. We're headed back to the Caribbean next year. The gun's staying home.


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## rennisaint (Oct 25, 2007)

billyruffn,

Ya know you can just ship firearms and address it to the local post office in AK and call them, tell them your arrival date and they'll just hold it for you right? Like a million times easier than what you went through.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Billy...a fair and unbiased accounting of the realities: some places a complete hassle, others not so much.

Personally, I am thinking of getting a longbow or a cross-bow for the purpose of sending a line back over a spreader or sending a messenger across the bows of another boat.

OK, maybe a little lagoon fishing... Seriously, if a bunch of guys with AK-47s is heading for us, my opinions with a wife and kid aboard are limited...I either give up, try to outrun them while calling for aid, or attempt to ram them (here's where a pilothouse steel boat comes in handy. But of course the logical thing is to plan one's route to avoid the crapholes of the planet in the first place. Let them eat each other.

In this hemisphere, the whole gun thing seems more trouble than it's worth, frankly, but then I'm neither a hunter nor an American, and so don't have the same, uh...cultural proclivities.

May I ask if you ever considered shipping the gun to Washington or directly to Alaska instead of carting it around the Caribbean?


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## petegingras (Mar 29, 2007)

rennisaint,



> Ya know you can just ship firearms and address it to the local post office in AK and call them, tell them your arrival date and they'll just hold it for you right? Like a million times easier than what you went through.


The old Application trail hiker's trick&#8230;U.S. Postal Regulations do not allow for these to be held for over 30 calendar days, and it's because those crazy hikers are always puttin' perishable crap in those boxes.

But hey maybe in Alaska, post offices are like gallant social events, so when that rifle comes in they realize the guy's got a story to tell, wait till he say, "ya just sailed in from the Caribbean."


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## petegingras (Mar 29, 2007)

medsailor,

More on point, Valiente's point is realily, if they want what you got the best you could hope for is they leave your boat, with you and your crew alive. I'd try to, if presented with this horrible situation, remain calm open the rum and offet the money, the electronic, the fuel, and first the rum.


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## sck5 (Aug 20, 2007)

You can ship it to a gun shop or gun dealer in Alaska (or anywhere else in the US for that matter) or anyone with an FFL. They can hold it until you get there. Most will do it for a nominal fee - 20 bucks was what a gun shop in Wisconsin quoted to me. I cant imagine it would be much more than that anywhere else.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

MedSailor said:


> What I would like to know is the first hand experience of those who have cruised with firearms. How much of a hassle was it? Which countries did you visit or avoid? I'd love to hear a country by country list of what hassles, if any, you encountered.
> MedSailor
> (hiding under a Nomex blankie...)


I remember this little story from Mexico


> Originally Posted by *sailhog*
> *A friend of mine wound up in a Mexcan prison for carrying a weapon on his boat. The food was awful, but the sex was, in his words, "awesome." Lots of group stuff. Very "sweaty." They made him leave after three months, but he's going back later this summer. He's going to just start shooting at other boats the moment he enters Mexican waters -- just to get a longer sentence. Not my cup of tea, but he really enjoyed his time there. Just an FYI.
> Sailhog*


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## Johnrb (Sep 21, 2002)

"_They were much more interested in the case of rum, four cases of wine and two cases of beer I had aboard._"

LOL. I can't imagine why. Non-residents entering Canada are allowed: "1 bottle of wine or spirits, 24 bottles or cans of beer"


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## billyruffn (Sep 21, 2004)

John,

They were really nice about it. I was told that a 'flag' would be put in my customs file to the effect that I'd been WARNED to never, never ever again try to enter Canada with so much booze aboard.

I've taken the warning seriously and have tried my best to drink it all.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

Either the first or second question the CG asked me the other day when they boarded me for an inspection was, "Do you have any weapons?"


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## sgkuhner (May 5, 2002)

When we entered Malaysia we were told by the manager of the marina that if we had a weapon to be sure to declare it. After we left the customs and immigration office we saw why he was so adamant; there was a big sign on the wall that read, "Unlawful possession of a firearm...Mandatory DEATH sentence!"

Then when we were in Suva Fiji, there was a boat whose skipper was a woman. She and her husband had gotten divorced a couple of years earlier and the divorce agreement stated that each had use of the boat for six months each year. When she entered Fiji she did not declare a weapon because she did not believe that there was a gun on board. Later she was having some work done on the engine, when the mechanic put his hand in the bilge and put it right on top of a rifle. Apparently her husband had had the rifle on board and had forgotten to tell her. She was arrested and spent four months in a Fijian jail. Not something anyone would ever want to do.

Bottom line, weapons are more of a hassel than one would think.


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## Boasun (Feb 10, 2007)

One problem that is there also. You will out gunned 99% of the time by the pirates. So stay in company of a Navy destroyer when plying those waters.


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## Shack (Sep 5, 2006)

*US Cruising*

International travel is problem with firearms when traveling by any mode of transport. For those that will not enter the territorial waters of other countries there is less of a problem.

*Federal Law* is covers in Title 22 & 27 US Code. Basically, any carriage of transport of firearms is considered "commerce" in firearms. However, if you personally own a gun and then leave US waters then return with it, it is then considered to be "in transit" and you would not be subject to commerce laws (as long as you declared it with customs officials before you left).

*Local laws* will present your only complication. Most local laws only cover local tranportation and local possession. (States can not regulate international commerce.) For example, Maryland has very restrictive firearms laws. They prohibit weapons in cars, boats, or planes unless properly secured and you are going directly to or from a range or repair shop. However, they do not (can not) outlaw weapons possession in the home. If your home is your boat, then possession on your liveaboard is legal provided that it properly secured and not stored in a dangerous condition.

*"If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, then ..."*
Above all else, state officials will use their own interpretation of laws to pursue people that they feel are deserving of some justice. Bottom line, if you choose to rely on the laws to protect your rights, then don't act in a manner that would make one suspect that you need to be analyzed in detail. If you look like a drug runner and have a bad attitude, be prepared to have your head liners removed.


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## Wannafish (Mar 25, 2004)

But Billy - you forgot the most important detail!

What caliber was it?


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## billyruffn (Sep 21, 2004)

Wannafish said:


> But Billy - you forgot the most important detail!
> 
> What caliber was it?


The rifle was a Winchester lever action, .348 caliber, the bullet 250 grain -- really good for bears, but hard on your ears.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I didn't read all of the replies to this post but here's a tip from someone who has travelled with firearms alot, in several different countries.

1. Mail yo guns if your just transporting them somewhere.

2. If for protection. Hide the friggin gun and ammo(filled mag(s)), somewhere on your boat where you can get to it, but it would take a year long disassemnbly of the boat to actually "find" it with an inspection.
3. If you can't perform Number "2" stop reading. I don't want you carrying a gun anyway.

4. It's better to ask for forgiveness then for permission, so when asked if you have any firearms say "No".
5. If you have a problem with number 4, stop reading. If anyone who will ever be on your boat MIGHT have a problem with lying, DONT LET THEM KNOW THERES A GUN ONBOARD.

6. It's better to be judged by 12 then carried by six. So personal safety and protection should trump your moral dilema with hiding something from a governments knowledge.
7. If you have a problem with number 6, join the rest of the unarmed sheep on this planet who risk watching their wife and daughter's get gang raped by third world country pirates.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

BTW, I went to south africa to shoot a PALMA match. google it if you don't know what shooting palma is. A liason picked us up from the airport. Prior to leaving the baggage claim area he asked if anyone brought any "handguns", which would seem strange since it's a rifle competition. Some of us said "yes". He said "good, get them out of your luggage and have them readily accessable." True story.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

*I assume Johannesburg*



mangomadness said:


> BTW, I went to south africa to shoot a PALMA match. google it if you don't know what shooting palma is. A liason picked us up from the airport. Prior to leaving the baggage claim area he asked if anyone brought any "handguns", which would seem strange since it's a rifle competition. Some of us said "yes". He said "good, get them out of your luggage and have them readily accessable." True story.


I have no difficulty believing that in RSA. It is sad, beautiful country. Johannesburg is like an armed camp. I was an unarmed tourist and it was the only time in my life that I wished I was carrying.


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## vega1860 (Dec 18, 2006)

After reading through this thread I have one question of all you other world travelers: How often have you been boarded and strip searched? From reading this and other threads on the subject, here and on other forums, it sounds like it happens all the time and that cruisers are routinely tossed in the slammer to rot for years in third world paradises.

Seriously. Just how intrusive have customs officials been in various countries? How likely are they, really, to find that undeclared J frame .38 in your wife's pocket or the Mini 14 in the hanging locker if you don't pull it out and wave it around?


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

In the Caribe we were boarded and the boat was cursorily searched in only 2 islands. In neither case would a well hidden gun have been found. 
Your odds of getting caught with a gun are low...but the consequences way more serious than in the USA if you lie about one. Worst case is if you do not declare one and need to use it.
Everybody has to make their own decisions on this knowing the risks on both sides. For me...the danger of crime was far outweighed by the inconvenience and risk of carrying one.


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

vega1860 said:


> How likely are they, really, to find that undeclared J frame .38 in your wife's pocket or the Mini 14 in the hanging locker if you don't pull it out and wave it around?


It's not really a question of how likely it is to happen. It's a question of the consequences if it DOES happen. As with most things in life it is a risk vs. reward equation. Like the person who happens to win the lottery, is it really going to matter to you that the odds were millions to one against if YOU happen to be the one who "hits the jackpot"?

How much comfort are you going to get, as you rot in a Turkish prison, from saying to your cellmates that the chances of getting caught were really, REALLY low?

On the other hand, how much comfort are you going to get, as intruders board your boat in the middle of the night, from knowing that you DON'T have any guns for the police to find?

Each person has to balance the pros and cons for themselves.


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