# How Far Do You Heel...?



## Squidd (Sep 26, 2011)

New sailor(s) here, maiden voyage this weekend...

Previous sailing was done on a cat where you either sail flat or heel comes with lifting a hull, the whole COG feeling is different than a keel boat...

We started out in 5-10 knot winds with the occasional gust to 15...when the boat first caught the wind and went 5*-7* heel I had screamers aboard...I'm saying..."this is OK sailboats "lean", get used to it"...

Then a gust would push us to 10* or even 12* with more screaming and scrambling...(we're only doing 3 1/2- 4 knots at the time) shoal keel boat and yes swing keel is down..

After an hour or so the "crew" was starting to get into it... trusting the boat (and me) that we weren't gonna flip over (which also sometimes happens on the cat) and the screaming stopped...we could trim the boat to hold a steady 10* and a good gust might get me a "glance" as we rolled to 15 or so...

I kept telling the crew (family) that 15* was "nothing" and with more wind and more speed we might hit 20*-25* and really no worries till we get over 30*, inclinometer goes to 45*...

So, I know it depends on the boat and sail trim and a dozen other factors, but "How far is too far"... and where do you spend most of your fair-mid weather sailing time (degree wise)...?


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

Too much heel equals too much weather helm, AKA a brake. You are slowing down.

Close hauled 15 to 20 degree is a rough limit.

Broach reach - flat.

What type of boat? That makes some difference.

BTW - the safety and *comfort* of the crew is your primary responsibility.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

It definitely 'depends' on a whole lot of things, but generally a 15 degree heel angle is usually considered optimum, with some boats sailing flatter due to crew ballast or inherent stiffness, and others routinely exceeding that number, at least occasionally.

The flatter you can sail the more efficient the sails and foils will be.. OTOH in many designs a bit of heel reduces wetted surface to good effect, esp in light airs when the crew will intentionally heel the boat beyond what the wind will do.

But in the end, 'it depends'.....

Life is a whole lot better when the crew accepts and even begins to enjoy the heeling that goes with sailing upwind....


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Sailboats have rounded sides...powerboats are schear. As stated 15-18 degrees is usallay the limnit when you start pushing water ( braking). Weatherhelm usually only comes into play when close hauled as an indicator. 

My rule of thumb is we reduce the heel angle when it slows down the speed of the boat no matter what point of sail. Easy one to rememeber.

Dave


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

C2S - Having been a boat that rounded up from a broad reach (under white sails) I can attest that weather helm can be found on other points of sail.

To the OP - THE RULE - REEF WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT IT.


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## NewportNewbie (Jul 30, 2011)

15-20 is my normal range. I have seen 25 but as others have said that will slow you down.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

I try to stay under 90 myself! beyond that causes some major issues!......

Reality is, if the rail is in the water, time to reduce sail! 20-30 depending upon numerous things is about max in all reality..........oh yeah, 180 is a bit too far south, or down under as some might say!

Marty


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

> C2S - Having been a boat that rounded up from a broad reach (under white sails) I can attest that weather helm can be found on other points of sail.jackdale





> Weatherhelm usually only comes into play when close hauled as an indicator.-chef2sail


Note the word* usually*. I outlined in in bold so you would see it this time as you must have read what I said too quickly and felt the need to correct me.. Of course you feel weatherhelm on other points of sail.



> Too much heel equals too much weather helm-,jackdale


My statement was saying that you should not use whetherhelm to detemine whether your angle of heel is slowing you down. You will usually feel that constant weatherhelm on a close haul. Some boats sail very comfortably with a moderate amount of weatherhelm and it does not slow them down or make them round up. It also depends on wind conditions whether constant or gusty and how the boat is designed. If you sailed my C&C 35 upright with no weatherhelm....you will not go as fast. Every boat has its tipping point which depends on design...sail used etc. Its like reefing. There are many variable factors. Heel angle is similar as pointed out by stumble.
Dave


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

It really depends on the boat. My Olson 30 sails fastest flat, very flat, like less than 5degrees flat. Anything more than that and we are going slow. The Columbia 50 I sail on needs about 15 degrees to regain its waterline (stupid rating rule boats), and start performing well.

Luckily most sailboats heave a very definite feedback loup to tell you when the boat is heeled to much. As the tiller loads up it indicates the boat is out of balance, and you are being forced to use the rudder to keep her strait, this acts as a nice speed break and is slow. The fun part is this happens right when the boat has too much heel for the keel/rudder/hull design. So if you feel load on the rudder, flatten the boat and go faster.


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## Squidd (Sep 26, 2011)

These are good answers... I don't "want" to heel excessivly, just wanted to get some numbers/data to back up my "guesstimations"..

Looks like (and felt like) 10*-12*-15* is the "range" to sail in... more is not better and maybe slower...

I've read many times "the boat will round up".. and want to believe it, also want to display confidence to crew without scareing them (or me)...and with the wife I would definetly sacrifice speed to keep her happy, hoping to build a confidence and love of sailing in her so we can do this awhile...

Then maybe some day when I have my logger friend, trucker, biker buddys and we're out doing Pirate Stuff... we can lean her over and see who screams like a little girl....


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## svHyLyte (Nov 13, 2008)

Squidd said:


> These are good answers... I don't "want" to heel excessivly, just wanted to get some numbers/data to back up my "guesstimations"..
> 
> Looks like (and felt like) 10*-12*-15* is the "range" to sail in... more is not better and maybe slower...
> 
> ...


A more useful question might be "how much rudder will you allow to overcome weather helm". When I can no longer adjust our sail trim to reduce our rudder angle to less than 10º-15º (max!), we reef the main or at least do a "Fisherman's reef" on short tacks. Dragging a laid-over rudder really slows you down. On our current boat (First 42), the foregoing is about 18º-20º of heel. On our previous boat--Cal 2-29--a surfer, it was less.

FWIW...


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

10 to 15 degrees seem like the most efficient for my Morgan 33 O.I..

Gary


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## sawingknots (Feb 24, 2005)

my py tends to correct its self when she heels excessivly [curve of the hull i suppose]no matter how much rag i have up or what i'm doing with the rudder,but theres really no point in excessive heeling


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Squidd, as you were the only one comfortable with a keel boat's characteristics. Just a suggestion, don't tip the boat! until they are ready! Most people will never come back if the first experience was uncomfortable or scary. Example: "we went camping one time.. I was cold and wet the whole time... I was on his bike and he was doing 120.... scared me to death.... never again" 
Just something for you to consider or you may find yourself sailing alone allot more.


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## bloodhunter (May 5, 2009)

Enchantress was designed to sail at a 20 degree angle of heel. That produces the max waterline length this was a result of the old IOR rule that penalized waterline length. 
That being said, the angle of heel always seems about double what it really is, especially to people not used to sailboats. You might consider puttin a clinometer in your cockpit so when people get worried you can point outy that your only at a 10 or 15 degree angle of heel. I did this when my wife started sailing and it seemed to have a really calming effect


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

bloodhunter said:


> That being said, the angle of heel always seems about double what it really is, especially to people not used to sailboats. You might consider puttin a clinometer in your cockpit so when people get worried you can point outy that your only at a 10 or 15 degree angle of heel. I did this when my wife started sailing and it seemed to have a really calming effect


An another consideration; have the crew on the windward side, facing windward. That does two things:
1) It helps flatten the boat.
2) The crew is looking out, not down at the water rushing by.


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## MSN2Travelers (Sep 12, 2006)

+1 with bloodhunter

Used to have a MacGregor 26M. Went to 20* at the slightest puff. Best way to ensure "she-who-must-be-obeyed" enjoyed sailing was to have the main sheet in her hands. She would dump air when we went too far over.

Now in the Bene, with a couple years experience, we know to adjust the sails and ensure our heel rarely goes beyond 18-20* no matter how heavy the wind.


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## DrB (Mar 29, 2007)

*There are two ranges that you need to be concerned with*

Crew Comfort and Safety and Boat Performance; they are not necessarily the same range.

For most boats 10-20 deg heel is optimal for performance. Long overhang boat hulls need more heel, short ones less. However, most of the time, I do what the guests want until boat performance (extreme weather helm) comes into play. Some guest don't like a lot of heel, others are fine with it. The Admiral also says when she is "uncomfortable", but usually that is when we need to reef or or do a different point of sail to reduce weather helm.

DrB


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## peterchech (Sep 2, 2011)

Is it a C22 or similar? (I noticed the centerboard reference). If so, be careful as those have been known to capsize and are really in between a keelboat and a dinghy. Ie, their point of diminishing stability is quite low and they may not come up from a serious knockdown.

However, if the boat is a rather typical keelboat, the boat's max righting moment is achieved around 60 degrees of heel, far more than you are likely to experience without a spinnaker in a blow. And once the boat hits 30 degrees on, the sails automatically start to depower.

I think cats are far less sensitive to being overtrimmed (I could be wrong). On a keelboat, if the main is sheeted too tight upwind you will heel more but not go as fast. Let out the main until it flogs, then just pull it in to where it's no longer stalling. A reverse "bubble" along the luff is ideal. Besides staying upright, this helps keep weatherhelm in check, and therefore keeps you off the rudder/break.

Typically you will heel over most right after a tack. In choppy and windy conditions especially the gust will hit before the boat has time to accelerate and the boat will heel way over. To avoid this (and avoid scaring the wife) you can let out the sheet a bit (inducing twist and reducing power) until the boat accelerates, then pull it back in.

As stated by plenty others, 15 degrees is normal, 20 is common and hitting 30-35 will happen in gusts esp if you don't reef early enough or release the sheet in time. Usually the rail will go under around 35, and this is entirely safe and normal in even "coastal" keelboats.

If you hit 45, most likely the rudder will loose its bite and the boat will automatically round up into the wind. To soothe the crew, show them the video of "hunter capsize" (in search) on youtube. These guys purposely over canvassed and over sheeted on a blustery day, even pulled on the boom to get the boat so heeled over as to round up. You see the rudder out of the water, and the boat just safely rounds right up. Just make sure the cockpit lockers have latches and are secured before trying that!


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## Squidd (Sep 26, 2011)

deniseO30 said:


> Squidd, as you were the only one comfortable with a keel boat's characteristics. Just a suggestion, don't tip the boat! until they are ready! Most people will never come back if the first experience was uncomfortable or scary. Example: "we went camping one time.. I was cold and wet the whole time... I was on his bike and he was doing 120.... scared me to death.... never again"
> Just something for you to consider or you may find yourself sailing alone allot more.


Oh no... not looking for maximum tip.... I remember taking her out on my chopper and saying "tap me if we go too fast"... I thought she was beating on me going "Faster -Faster"...when she really ment slow down You "Baster* You Baster*)...

I want this to go good... no scare offs...

Boat is 26' and 6500# shoal Keel with 500# swing keel doubling draft...I don't want to pull 15* if 20* will round up, but looks like we were just "gettin in the zone..." So it's OK to be confident to that level..

I've heard on the Paceship website 45*-50* before she "rounds up"...not that I'm going there but nice to know the safety margin...



> However, if the boat is a rather typical keelboat, the boat's max righting moment is achieved around 60 degrees of heel, far more than you are likely to experience without a spinnaker in a blow. And once the boat hits 30 degrees on, the sails automatically start to depower.


That's what "I'm" looking for... Promise not to scare the female/family crew at anything near that...But when the "boys come out to play"....all bets are off..


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

Squidd said:


> That's what "I'm" looking for... Promise not to scare the female/family crew at anything near that...But when the "boys come out to play"....all bets are off..


Just be safe. On one round-up from a broad reach which occurred when I was below sitting at the nav table talking to another crew member in the galley, he was thrown across the saloon onto the chart table. No injuries, but ....

Remember, there are old sailors and there are bold sailors; there are no old, bold sailors.

I would like to sail efficiently *and* fast.


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## Squidd (Sep 26, 2011)

Come on Jack, let me keep my balls...

Just saying I promise to be "really cool" with the family and "pretty cool" with the boys...

I'm not stupid....coast guard was doing a safety meet at the marina..Wife asks "What if you fall in?'.... They said "DON'T"... @ 40*-45* in the water you got 10-12 min "maybe"... 

No games on this boat... we have plenty fun on the Cat in warmer water... 


"


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## MITBeta (May 13, 2011)

I found that I have been able to soothe the fears of my daughters with respect to healing by demonstrating the use of the main sheet and its effect on the heel angle. On a close haul course: Trim the main sheet, increase heel; ease the main sheet, decrease heel. Now that the girls know that Daddy can control heel and that the boat isn't going to tip over, they simply let me know when they are uncomfortable. It's fun watching them scramble to the high side of the boat after tacking...


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## tomperanteau (Jun 4, 2009)

Like the others, I agree that it is kinda boat-specific. My old Harstad liked around 20 degrees before it really started moving, but my Crealock Columbia 36 prefers around 15 degrees and she screams.

Keep it comfortable. The difference between 20 degrees at 7 knots and 15 degrees at 6.5 knots is the comfort.


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## Gregrosine (Feb 10, 2013)

New sailors here as well. This weekend we were on Lake Michigan in a 35 ft. Beneteau. Wind was 20 knots and a small craft advisory. We were between a close haul and a beam reach. There was a lot of weather helm. It was getting hard to handle the boat. We furled in the genoa a bit hoping to take out some power. Didn't help much but then it wasn't furled much. When we furled in part of the jib it was flapping quite hard. Then I let out the traveller a bit and let out the main, hoping to spill some wind and depower the boat. It helped some. Finally I just took in the genoa and it was much easier then. 

I don't know the angle of our heel, but I think it was effecting the ability of the rudder. When you get so much weatherhelm that it is hard to keep the boat under control, what should you do with sail trim? BTW - we have an inmast furling main.


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

Some boats like to heel. While I have not had my sprite out yet, I have read and heard that they like to bury the rail and when they do, they just gain speed. Granted, a seasprite 23 is an old fashioned boat with very low sheer, so the rail is only about 2 feet above the waterline as it is


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

There is some really strange "information" on this thread.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

I pay attention to my speed, not my heel angle. My Pearson 28 hits hull speed upwind at between 20-30 degrees heel angle. Yes, there is weather helm; yes, the rudder is being dragged through the water at an angle; yes the keel is acting as a lever in the water; nevertheless, the boat is going as fast as it can at that angle. As an IOR-influence boat with a large J measurement, most of the P28's power comes from the jib, and as the boat is initially tender, it will heel over quickly to 15 degrees upwind as it nears hull speed. The waterline is longer as the boat heels, increasing hull speed.

Try experimenting with your main sail trim. Crack off the sheet or drop the traveller, or in an extreme case - put in a reef, and see if your speed increases with less heel angle.

On a broad reach or run, upright is fastest (as the boat rolls). Interestingly, the boat pitches less as it attempts to climb its bow wave at hull speed, or in those rare occasions, surfs down a wave.

Here is my boat upwind at hull speed:


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

In my opinion James has the right approach. You maye be heeled 28 degrees and you may have some helm but if you are passing boats then you are doing the right thing. By
pishing the boat hard you are getting the most horse power out of your rig and this might make up for the negative effects of heel angle. Pretty muich every bpoat I have sailed, and I have sailed a lot, benefits from being "powered up" when on the wind or hard reaching. Heeling to 30 degrees is common when hard on the wind racing. I'm not saying heeling per se is good. I'm saying putting the pedal to the metal and leeting the boat heel, just short of rail under is for most boats the fastest way to sail. Everything short of that is a deference to your crew and their comfort and that's fine but it is probably not fast.

Reefing is huge. There comes a time when you can't get optimal trim out of your main without sticking the rail in and building up unnaceptable weather helm, on some boats. When you need more then 5 degrees of helm it's time to think about putting in a reef.

Cruisers reef for survival.
Racers reef for performance.


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## sailordave (Jun 26, 2001)

I usually heel about 3-4 feet behind. 
Since Admiral is left handed I tend to stay to the right.


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

bobperry said:


> There is some really strange "information" on this thread.


Yep, lots of numbers, things getting lost in translation.

I've TRIED to find the deepest heel I can get on my boat (I want to know what it'll take before I start to push it with others aboard). I can't get past 35 degrees (using a LEV-O-GAUGE). The boat loses bite, and rounds up... rail super-wet, and water rolling into the cockpit at 35. Off wind, well, if you are going DDW, heeling is an effect of rollers, and surfing, and heel isn't really an issue is it? Beam reach and closer? different story.

Optimum heel angle is another story... I suspect it's about 20 degrees on my boat (recently I've formed the opinion that 25 isn't horribly slow though). I've been faster than others with higher angles of heel though. I think people get lost in looking at heel angle and ignore what produces speed. Sure you should always consider your passengers/crew comfort before you go seeking to wet the rail. But optimum trim should be your focus.

Without a spinnaker up or really confused seas, you'll be hard pressed to get past say 30-35 (between auto-rounding up, and spilling wind, etc). Now if your swinger decided to swing IN on you, I suspect ALL bets are off!...

Something seems amiss here though, a 500lb keel on a 26 foot boat (my 25 at half your total weight, is 900lbs)? I think some numbers are off... if it's the paceship we're talking about, its showing #2200 of ballast (its possible the swing part is 500lbs and the rest is in fixed ballast so maybe?)!

Either way I wouldn't worry about maximum, or optimum heel just yet, I'd put more focus on getting trim set right, as well as figuring how to make the boat quickest for any particular point of sail. Learn to depower it when necessary, and comfort levels as well as confidence will come up quickly.

As for reef when you first think of it... ugh... If I had a nickle for every time I've heard that. I could NOT disagree more!

I'd argue that EVERYONE should learn how to depower their rig without reefing first! Then as a last resort, reef. Certainly if you have a thunderhead approaching, REEF! But reefing just because your are overpowered right now, is the wrong response... figure out how to depower what you have first... then decide if you really need to reef. Winds oscillate in power, everyone should know how to adjust what they have to compensate for it... because HERE's the deal... what happens if you reef and you are STILL overpowered? You reefing again? What if you can't? You'll still need to know what will depower your rig as the winds pipe up... Unlucky is the sailor who has run out of reef points, and who's iron genny won't start, and doesn't know how to make the sails he/she has work for the conditions he/she has had thrust upon them.

Look up topics here on TWIST, and ANGLE of ATTACK, DEPOWER... you'll get info you can use for EVERY sail.

Good luck and get that crew used to feeling for speed and ignoring heel.


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## flandria (Jul 31, 2012)

It may have been covered already:

Be prepared for temporary, possibly excessive heeling (not dangerous, but upsetting to passengers...) if you are sailing in "stable" (wind) conditions and a strong gust comes up. If you do not adjust sails (such as "fisherman's reef" e.g. loosen sails to spill wind) the boat will heel AND will round up into the wind (weather helm) to get rid of the excess energy, while speeding up. One reason not to go too close to a windward obstacle (such as a buoy) unless you are prepared to hit it before go get a chance to bear off.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Dave:
Good boy.
I do the classic heel to the left about even with the left knee.

Snoo:
Not sure I agree with your police work there on de-powering. To me de-powering means reducing the efficiency of the sails. With a neat and tidy rig you can optimise the sail shape with reduced heel and helm.

I think anh heel angle over 30 degrees is probably too much for any boat. Old IOR boats would go to weather powered up at 30 dgrees of heel. Today we try to sail boats flatter.

In the Race Your House race I sailed a PH Baba 35 with brand new Carol Hasse sails. We had apparenet wind speed up to 25 knots and a touch above at times. I pushed the boat very hard and at times had the rail under upwind. In deference to a concerned owner and a terrified wife we finally took a couple of rolls on the genoa. It was a mistake and probably cost us 1st overall. We got 2nd overall by seconds and beat a lot of bigger fin keel boats that were amazed that we hung in there with them upwind. It was a marvelous day of racing. It showed the owner just how hard his boat can be pushed without any harm. It was really the only way to definetively demonstrate that.


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## DrB (Mar 29, 2007)

*Can't add more than what others have said*

General Rule/Observations:

Too much heel equals weather helm = slow and difficult boat to control
Too much heal puts more stress on boat, things start to break
Too much heel = nervous crew or worse, nervous admiral
When admiral says there is too much heel, Captain needs to do something
If you're constantly correcting the the helm to go in a straight line, it's time to adjust the sails, adjust your course, or reduce sail area. A well balanced helm should be able to sail straight (on flat seas), with minimal helm adjustments.

Must keel boats like to have ~10-15 deg heel for fastest speed on beat/close haul/close reach. Some can do 20, others only 10.

I love watching "skilled" sailors show me most of their bottom paint thinking it looks cool and they are doing it right.

DrB


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

DrB;
I don't go along with some of that and I have a year or two of design background to back it up.

Weather helm is only a problem on some boats. Narrow boats can have even a neutral helm in a breeze.

You want some weather helm to take advantage of the lift produced by the rudder and to help the boat keep "seeking" the wind when you are hard on the wind.

You should be able to heel your boat to 30 degrees with confidence that things are not going to break.

"Must keel boats like to have ~10-15 deg heel for fastest speed on beat/close haul/close reach."

Not true at all. There is no "optimal heel angle". This is a myth. You push the boat as hard as you can to get the best VMG. When VMG suffers you must do something to restore it. Sailing at 10 to 15 degrees of heel is like sailing with training wheels.

A well trimmed good racing boat hard on the wind will show a lot of bottom paint and they are doing it right or they wouldn't be racing. If you have never engaged in organized races much of this sail trim and heel stuff will remain a mystery. But when you cross the start line with 20 other boats and head to a weather mark ten miles away you will find out very quickly what works to productive the best VMG and what does not work.

I certainly agree with you that sailing style must be tailored to the well being and comfort of the crew. But not when trying to get the most out of a boat.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

I often heel a lot but since I mostly sail alone it does not bother me. I actually like it since I grew up dinghy sailing. It feels like driving your car on 2 wheels.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

I had a new client for a 42' fast "weekender" type boat. I'll leave their name out of this. They currently had an Ultimate 20 sport boat. It was a nice modern, frac rigged, very light boat with a retractable carbon spirt and all the go fast goodies.

We went for an afternoon sail. There was a race starting. I said, "Let's fall in behind the racers and just see what we can do without getting in anyone's way." The husband was driving. He is a techno geek with lots of book smarts. He was adamant that his boat should be sailed flat with a "bubble" in the main at all times. We were so slow it was embarrassing. We might as well as hove to. After we limped around the leeward mark I said, "Let me drive." Fine. I got the tiller. "Then I said, "Sit there, shut up and hang on." I sheeted the main in hard, got rid of the stupid "bubble" and tipped the Ultimate 20 on it's ear totally powered up. We were soon screaming upwind and catching boats that had been well ahead of us.

It's all about generating horse power and putting it to good use to gain VMG.

But there are lots of ways to sail a boat. You can loaf along at low heel angles if you like that way of sailing. I don't give a rat's patootey. Just go sailing. But don't give me that silly "Oh those racers think they know how to do it" stuff. If you race you learn how to do it or you lose. And I don't know any racers who sail to lose. And EVERYTHING you learn racing can benefit your comfort and safety when cruising. You don't have to sail for speed but if you need to it's nice to know how to do it.

Rant over.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

So much of it depends on hull type. My old, narrow, overhung A35, for instance, heels very quickly and then hits a sweet spot. I love to set sail for a long run with the gunwale in the water but that's really more for fun than speed. For best SOG, having the right amount of canvas up and trimmed right so that the helm can be trimmed without a lot of weather helm produces the best speed. It's interesting to watch the GPS speed while trying different combinations of trim: twist, cunningham, downhaul, outhaul, even backstay tension. Little adjustments make big differences in the efficiency of the rig. Heel angle is only one part of the equation.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

My Pearson 28-2 (little in common with the ones that James has besides the brand name and designer) seems to love 15 degrees. The cockpit seats are even angled 15 degrees so that they are flat when the boat heels that far. The boat gets to 15 degrees quite early and stays there for a long time. I also find that my non-sailing guests seem to handle 10-15 degrees okay, but start to question my sanity when we get anything over 15 degrees.

It is definitely heeling too much when the leeward winch is under water and throwing a wake. That happened once in a race when we couldn't get the sails flat enough. Some of it was older sails (now replaced), some was operator error. I don't know how heeled that is, probably 30-40 degrees. I didn't like it.

I put in a reef when I'm getting lots of weather helm due to heel. That might be about 20 degrees. My boat is well balanced in ~20 knot apparent wind when the main is reefed and the 135% genoa is not. I also think that I get better sail shape with a reefed main and unrolled genoa vs full main and rolled up genoa.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Most boats don't benefit from heeling past 30 degrees as at that angle the rig begins to lose power. When designing a rig, for instance, most designers assume the max rig loads happen at 30 degrees of heel.

Here are a couple pics of the mighty ICON racing powered up in a moderate breeze and a bit of a snotter in the other and a shot of WILD HORSES cruising with one reef in and fully powered up.


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## DrB (Mar 29, 2007)

bobperry said:


> DrB;
> I don't go along with some of that and I have a year or two of design background to back it up.
> 
> Weather helm is only a problem on some boats. Narrow boats can have even a neutral helm in a breeze.
> ...


My comments were "General", which means applying to most keel boats. I understand that it has to do will hull shape and such. The bottom line is if you have a lot of weather helm, not just the 3 deg or so of "lift helm" that is desired, you are overpowered and not sailing efficiently, I don't care what the what your heel angle is. If the rudder is acting like a brake, then you are not sailing efficiently and not sailing as fast as you can, so you either need to a better job of sail trim or reduce the helm to sail the boat flatter.

As far as racing and showing a lot of bottom paint, I don't agree. If you are showing a lot of bottom paint, ie close to showing the keel/hull joint, I challenge anyone to show me that that is a minimal weather helm. Naturally the boat wants to round up and the helmsman is fighting it, ie slowing the boat down.

I have done a lot of racing, and was part of a crew that won the Frostbite series (J-24) a few years ago, raced OD, PHRF's etc. Just because you race, doesn't mean you how to sail well. Lot's of folks race, but don't understand how to eek out every micro knot of speed with sail trim, weight balance, positioning, etc. I have been on a lot of boats that should blow the competition out of the water, but get crushed by boats with older sails, more "antiquated" designs and such because the do the fundamentals well.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Ok Dr. Have it your way. I'll have it mine.


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## ScottUK (Aug 16, 2009)

Looks like pretty flat water for those wind conditions.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

As stated this is particular to the individual boat. My current boat is very stiff. Try as I might can't get rail wet. Prior boat commonly took green water up to the house and sailed on. Think one of the main advantage of knot meters is knowing if you are going the speed your sailing polar says you should be. Find in general you have less feel for this in big boats and stiff boats


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

.

I was just in Newport a couple weeks ago at Fort Adams watching a couple of young sailing school instructors put their J22 completely on its side, walk vertically on the side of the boat while talking very calmly to the little kids in the cockpit who are their students,then pop it back up and very calmy do it in the other direction. Everyone was laughing. This was 100 yards from shore, in crowded anchorage. 


My wife screams long before we hit 20 degrees. But if she isn't there, my grown up boys don't seem to mind if the rail is in the water. They laugh.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

bloodhunter said:


> Enchantress was designed to sail at a 20 degree angle of heel. That produces the max waterline length this was a result of the old IOR rule that penalized waterline length.


Just for the record, Enchantress was actually designed to beat the CCA rule not the IOR rule. The design was late in the CCA era that was made instantly obsolete as a race boat when the IOR became the new rule of the land in 1970.

But as been noted, the ideal heel angle will vary with the boat, the wind and the sea state. Most boat sails at their fastest with pretty flat heel angles. (Experimental testing suggests that even long overhang boats may do better with less heel angle than we used to think in that the stretched waterline length does not reduce induced drag as much as the offsetting other drag generating and leeway inducing factors may result in a smaller VMG.)

That said there are reasons that one might choose to sail a boat at steeper heel angles that may in fact produce a better VMG, at least upwind. I try to sail Synergy around 10-12 degrees of heel, but often will exceed that when pushing the old girl in a breeze.



Jeff


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Great photo Jeff of you pushing your boat at what I measure as 28 degrees of heel. I could be off a couple of degrees but I used the shoreline for a benchmark so I am pretty close.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

For us it's about comfort as well as performance, not being a racer.
In the pic above SS is doing about 9 knots in 25 knots of wind with a very deeply reefed main.
We have found that letting her heel too much, she just slides sideways on her big belly and the decreased draft does not aid windward performance.
Of course, beating between the islands here in the Caribbean, we have seas to contend with. On a normal winter day, they can be 4 to 8', and sailing the boat on her ear is not the most pleasant ride in those conditions.
Generally, for our inter island sailing, she is set up for the top end of the expected conditions when we leave an anchorage. It's always easier to shake out a reef in lighter conditions than tuck one as the wind builds.
Then a squall comes along and we get a wild ride on her big belly.


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## glymroff (Apr 2, 2009)

My Triton flips over to just over 20, then locks solid (weather helm only affected by to much sail, not angle). I've been told that the long overhangs of the older boats tend to make a 20-23 heel better as it increases the waterline by (in my case 3ft). Yeah I know on a little boat that doesn't sound like much, but it is more than 10% of the boat.

I can't wait to sail our new one (T37) as I've been told that it heels in the 10-15 range, which I would (and I'm sure anyone else on board) like much more for comfort.

Not enough experience to speculate further, other than common sense tells me that it is very specific to type, and design of craft.

2c


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

bobperry said:


> Great photo Jeff of you pushing your boat at what I measure as 28 degrees of heel. I could be off a couple of degrees but I used the shoreline for a benchmark so I am pretty close.


Thanks Bob, I have always figured that she was heeled something just under 30 degrees in that photo.

I had just gotten hit by a gust and was actually in the process of dropping the traveller a little (one hand steering to feel the helm while the other slacked the traveler tackle) and was about to add a pinch more backstay and flatten the main slightly to stand her up a few degrees.

Jeff


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

That's a fine vessel Jeff. I could enjoy that boat at any heel angle.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Coming from you that means a lot. If you find yourself near Annapolis, I would be delighted to sail with you. 

Jeff


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Yeah but,,,,your water is so thin it scares me. I've sailed there. It's terrifying.

Count on it Jeff.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

bobperry said:


> Yeah but,,,,your water is so thin it scares me. I've sailed there. It's terrifying.
> 
> Count on it Jeff.


Especially terrifying in a one of those new fangled fragile fiberglass thangs....

Jeff


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## fatcatsailor (Jun 9, 2013)

Although 30 is fun as we berry the rail..but usually 15 to 18 work best for my full keel


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## ScottUK (Aug 16, 2009)

> add a pinch more backstay


Would this not induce more weather helm Jeff?


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

To BobP... I think we agree more than we disagree. Certainly about heel angle.

Regardless to the OP... experiment with what is most efficient with your boat for any particular wind... push the boat (when you are comfortable), but do so only with respect to crew!

These boats can usually take more of a beating that we can!


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

going on the "depends on the boat" It also depends on when the boat was designed and built. Most Alberg and the like are very "wet" in that they like to heel over. This was designed in as a way to make the boat longer as your speed in the water is determined in part by your length at the waterline. Boats with long overhangs get longer the further they heel.

More modern boats with plumb bows and reverse transoms don't need to heel to go faster, they generally seem to sail more upright (and go like hell compared to us old full keelers).

I am unsure on the transitional years


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

Since now I'm sailing a monohull I find that past 20 degrees makes my non-gimballed cup holders less efficient if holding a full rum and coke.

Therefore, from a performance and efficiency point of view I tend to keep my heel below 20 degrees by trimming the sails with the iron genny.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Machine:
That's the traditional theory anyway. But the next time you are heeled over look over the bow and the stern and see just how much of your boat is immersed. If it's not in the water it's not doing anything to extend the sailing length. This effect or imagined effect is over rated. I don't care that it has been standard theory for years. Overhangs are the result of old rating rules and are marginally effective at best.


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

Overhangs are useful for reserve buoyancy and good looks  over rated as speed additives.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

I use bow overhang for two reasons:
To get the headstay where I want it to balance the rig.
To get the anchor roller away from the stem so I am not banging the stem when I raise the anchor.

In the stern I like some overhang to insure a clean wake at low speeds.

When I did the MS CAPAZ the client wanted 9 knots under power. It was a 49' boat. I was a bit nervous about the 9 knots so I called my old mentor Bill Garden. He told me to eliminate all overhangs. I did and I got my 9 knots easily.

I would not call it an elegant look but it is handsome to my eye and very functional with good visibility from the inside pilot station. And, as a bonus the boat sails very well. The client didn't like it when I referred to the boat in my review as a "sailing tugboat".


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

bobperry said:


> Machine:
> That's the traditional theory anyway. But the next time you are heeled over look over the bow and the stern and see just how much of your boat is immersed. If it's not in the water it's not doing anything to extend the sailing length. This effect or imagined effect is over rated. I don't care that it has been standard theory for years. Overhangs are the result of old rating rules and are marginally effective at best.


I am well aware.. otherwise race boats would not use Plumb Bows and reverse transoms


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## chip (Oct 23, 2008)

When your boat is already completely inefficient in every way, it allows you a certain freedom to heel as much or as little as you'd like as your mood and the wind dictate.


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

How far do we heel???

Well, we heel until we get there.

Regards,
Brad


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

ScottUK said:


> Would this not induce more weather helm Jeff?


Scott, I apologize in advance that there is a huge amount of verbiage here, and also that I wrote this for another purpose, but it does explain my thinking.

If I were to give an uncharacteristically (for me) terse explanation of what happens when you increase backstay tension on a modern fractional rig, I would say that increasing backstay tension decreases weather helm and heeling, by flattening the sails, reducing the angle of attack of the upper sail, and as counter intuitive as this sounds, moving the center of effort forward. If you want the short answer, that's it and so stop reading here.
V
V
V
V
V
Still here? Good, because, that summary of the 'whys' does not explain how any of that happens. But to explain how tightening the backstay on a modern fractional rig decreases weather helm and heeling, flattens the sails, reduces the angle of attack of the upper sail, and moves the center of effort forward takes a lot of verbiage, because frankly there are a lot of pieces and parts in motion, and it's the interaction of those parts that tells the whole story. By necessity, explaining how a modern fractional rig functions has enough "Gizmo A pulls on Gadget B which bends Object C's" to make Rube Goldberg proud. But a modern fractional rig is anything but a Rube Goldberg device. It is a highly evolved and sophisticated system which works with surgical precision and a Rolex like synchronization of nearly all of its moving parts working in unison to depower the boat with the singular application of more backstay tension.

So starting at the backstay, no matter what mechanism is used to increase backstay tension, there is a shorting of the dimension between the transom and the masthead. This pulls the masthead aft and downward. In fact, depending on the rig proportions, the force downward will typically be 3-4 times the force pulling straight aft.

And those combined forces move the masthead towards the stern and towards the deck. 
And that shortens the dimension from the masthead to the end of the boom.
And that loosens the tension on leech of the mainsail. 
And that allows the aft end of sail to twist to leeward.
And that reduces the angle of attack of the mainsail.
And that reduces the side forces on the aft edge of the sail, 
And that alone reduces heeling and weather helm.

But that's only the beginning. 
What keeps the mast from being pulled over the stern or crumpling to the deck are the forestay and shrouds. The forestay acts as a fulcrum bending the mast in much the same way that your hand on the grip of a bow (i.e. bow and arrow) allows the tension of a drawn bowstring to bend the bow further.

And so in that manner the backstay pulling aft increases the bend the mast, while at the same time pulling the head of the forestay aft as well, increasing the tension on the forestay. 
And the bend in the mast and the increased forestay tension forces the attachment point of the forestay slightly downward and back toward the stern. 
And that moves the head of the jib closer to clew of the jib, 
And that loosens the tension on leech of the jib. 
And that allows the aft edge of jib leech to twist to leeward.
And that reduces the angle of attack of the jib.
And that reduces the side forces on the aft edge of the sail, 
And that also helps reduce heeling and weather helm.

But that is not all;
As the mast bends, and as we said above, the upper part of the mast above the forestay bends towards the transom. But below the forestay that increased bend actually moves the mast and attached sail towards the bow. 
And since there is more mast bending towards the bow than towards the stern, the geometric center of the mainsail is actually moving forward in the boat. 
And that increases the proportional center of the forces toward the forward edge of the sail, 
And that also helps reduce weather helm.

But that still is not all;
Because, the increased tension on the forestay straightens the forestay and the luff of the jib. 
And in doing so the geometric center of the jib is also moving forward in the boat. 
And that increases the proportional center of the forces on the forward edge of the sail, 
And that also helps reduce weather helm.

But that is not all either; 
Because as the mast bends, the masthead moves aft and the upper leech of the sail also moves slightly aft, but at the same time the curvature at the mast moves the leading edge of the mainsail forward towards the bow.
And as the distance between the leech and the luff gets physically longer, the curvature of the sail gets stretched flatter. 
And that results in a depowering (flattening) of the sail so that the mainsail now generates less side force relative to its drive. 
And that depowering also helps reduce heeling and weather helm.

And we are still not done;
As mentioned above, the increased tension on the head of forestay straightens the curvature of the forestay and so the middle of the forestay moves towards the bow increasing the distance between the leech and luff of the jib as well. In much the same way as the mainsail description above, as the distance between the leech and the luff gets physically longer, the curvature of the jib gets stretched flatter.

And that results in a depowering (flattening) of the jib so that the jib now generates less side force relative to its drive. 
And that depowering also helps reduce heeling and weather helm.

And all that combined reduction in heeling, also reduces weather helm.

And that all happens all at once when you tighten the backstay on a fractional rig.

When new sailors hear or read this explanation, they sometimes think. "That sounds way too complex for me to be able to use effectively." But here is the really great news about this, virtually all fractional rigs come with an instrument that tells them rather precisely how much backstay to apply. Its called 'the helm'.

All you need to do to tell how much backstay to apply is to watch and/or feel the helm. As you apply backstay you will feel the force lessen on the helm, and you will be able to visually watch the helm move back towards being neutral, and when you get to the spot where the helm is where it feels or looks about right, you have enough backstay tension. If the boat starts feeling sluggish, you probably have too much tension. Using the backstay adjustment on a modern fractional rig is just that simple.

Jeff


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## PaulinVictoria (Aug 23, 2009)

Nice. Can you write it again now for a masthead rig?


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## ScottUK (Aug 16, 2009)

Cheers Jeff. 

So from what I gather the mainsail is flattened at the leading edge in the area of the mast bend and then the leech would not have as much tension thus adding more twist and spilling more wind. It has been what I thought but have heard conflicting information. 

I understand moving the top of the forestay aft and down would also decrease the tension on the leech of the headsail and so induce twist. Not sure about flattening the headsail though. If the foreatay tension is tight and is moved aft through increased backstay tension wouldn't this just decrease the angle of the straight line of the forestay and not reall effect the luff. But I guess it would all depend on the initial forestay tension.


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## blutoyz (Oct 28, 2012)

chucklesR said:


> Since now I'm sailing a monohull I find that past 20 degrees makes my non-gimballed cup holders less efficient if holding a full rum and coke.
> 
> Therefore, from a performance and efficiency point of view I tend to keep my heel below 20 degrees by trimming the sails with the iron genny.


That is how I sail...drinks spillin' is not an efficient heel angle


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

PaulinVictoria said:


> Nice. Can you write it again now for a masthead rig?


(You really asked for this? Same apologies as above.)

While tensioning the backstay on a fractional rig puts a lot of parts in synchronized motion, inherently, far less happens automatically in a masthead rig. But it's also harder to talk in absolutes with masthead rigs because much of what happens is dependent on the specifics of the rig components and its proportions.

As a very broad generality, masthead rigs come in two flavors; inflexible masts, and bendy masts, and at the extremes of both, masthead rigs behave very differently. I would guess that inflexible masts make up the vast majority of masthead rigs which are out there. They were the original version of the masthead rig, and they have come back in vogue due to in-mast furling, which requires a stiff straight spar to function properly.

The short answer to your question would be.... on a boat with an inflexible mast when the backstay is tightened, the forestay attachment point moves aft and easing the leech and tensioning the stay thereby reducing sag in the stay and so depowers the jib. On a boat with a flexible spar, when used in concert with a babystay, there is also some bending of the mast and depowering of the mainsail. But compared to a fractional rig, the reduction in weather helm and heeling is less apparent on a masthead rig.

Again, to explain why this is so will require a very long explanation. If you are interested in that long explanation and having been forewarned, here is the detailed answer.

The masthead rig began life simply as a way of beating a racing rule. Prior to that rule, yachts and working water craft were predominantly fractionally rigged. When the early masthead rig boats began to show up, they were designed with inflexible spars.

Strictly from a structural engineering standpoint, there are good reasons why a masthead rig wants to have an inflexible spar, while a fractional rig with the same sail area potentially is better suited for a flexible spar. Starting with the basics, a stayed sailboat rig inherently behaves like a truss, meaning that the majority of the loads experienced by its components are axial (either compression or tension).

But a sailboat rig is not a pure truss, because the side force of the mainsail puts the mast in bending and in torsion. In the case of a fractional rig, the extension of the mast beyond the forestay further dramatically increases the bending forces on the mast section. Pure trusses do not have bending forces on their components.

I would like to stop for a moment and do a quick discussion on structural terminology to make sure we are all on the same page. (I apologize for this divergence if you already understand structural terminology.) I will be using the term 'compression', and 'buckling' with the assumption that this term is understood by everyone in the same manner as it is used in structural design. But for those who are not familiar with structural design, the easiest way to visualize compression is to think of the loads pushing on each end of a structural component straight towards the other end. In buildings the most common compressive members are columns and bearing walls.

On boats the mast and spreaders are predominantly acting in compression. The boom is also loaded in compression from the outhaul and vang trying to push the boom through the mast, but a typical boom also experiences a lot of bending force.

In a strict sense, a failure strictly due to compression is crushing of the material such that the material separates. You can perhaps visualize this type of failure if you think of a drinking glass sitting upright on a counter and then weight is slowly added on the top of glass. At some point the weight will exceed the capacity of the glass and it will shatter (usually explosively) sending shards in different directions.

But structures under compression can also fail due to buckling. If you visualize pushing down on the end of a thin dowel. At first the dowel might hold the vertical load, but at some point the dowel will bow out to one side and the amount of load it can withstand will decrease. That bowing of the dowel is called buckling.

Aluminum masts almost never fail due to simple compressive failure. Most aluminum mast failures are some mix of a buckling and a bending failure, with the crushing of the walls of the spar extrusion being a major contributing factor in the event of a complete collapse. Composite spar failures can be pure compressive with a greater frequency than aluminum spar failures, but like aluminum are more likely to be a buckling or bending failure.

Which brings us back to rigs; speaking in broad general terms, while individual components may experience higher loads than they do on a beat, collectively, almost any rig experiences its largest loads when going upwind. By and large, on a stayed rig with jibs, the single largest force is the compressive forces on the mast when going upwind. And while the total amount of the compressive force comes from resisting a collection of stay and shroud loadings, The single largest compressive loading comes from the vertical force component that is generated by the forestay and vertical component generated by the backstay in resisting the horizontal pull of the forestay.

The amount of this compressive loading is proportionate to the size of the jib (if the wind force is in lbs/sq. ft., a greater area generates more side force), the shape of the headsail (a fuller sail generates more force that an flatter cut sail), the stability of the boat (if it takes more force to heel the boat, the side force of wind is absorbed by the sail rather than by heeling over), the drag of the boat (if it takes more force to move the boat, the side force of wind is absorbed by the sail rather than by accelerating), forestay sag (it requires more forestay tension to reduce sag, and with greater tension there is greater compressive loads resisted by the mast), and to a lesser extent, and the length and stretchiness of the forestay (the longer or more stretchy the forestay the greater the stretch, and the greater the stretch the greater the sag, so for an equal acceptable amount of sag, these would require a greater tension).

As a broad generality, for any given sail area, a masthead rig will generally have larger jibs and longer forestays than a fractional rig. And because of that, a masthead rig will generally have higher forestay tension and the vertical component of that higher forestay tension will induce significantly higher compressive loads into the mast.

This is further compounded by the fact that greater backstay tension is required to resist the greater forward thrust of the greater forestay tension. And the vertical component of that greater backstay tension also results in significantly greater compressive forces on the mast.

But beyond that, the portion of the fractional rig mast that extends above the forestay, acts as a lever, reducing the amount of horizontal force that the backstay needs to impart in order to achieve the same horizontal force on the forestay. And that reduction in horizontal force, also results in a significant further reduction in the compressive forces on the mast.

In that regard given the high compressive loads on a masthead rig, an inflexible spar makes sense since it is less likely to buckle. But unfortunately without being able to bend the mast, tightening the backstay can only minimally impact heeling and weather helm.

Going through this a step at a time, when the backstay is tightened on a mast head rig, the top of the mast moves aft, and that moves geometric center of the mainsail aft as well. That increases weather helm. This is partially offset by moving the head of the mast slightly aft which slightly shortens the distance between the aft end of the boom and the head of the sail, which slightly opens the leech, which slightly depowers the mainsail.

At the same time, as the masthead moves aft, its attachment point moves aft, which slightly shortens the distance between the jibsheet lead and the head of the sail, which slightly opens the leech, which slightly depowers the jib. It also tensions the forestay, which takes some of the sag out of the stay. As the stay straightens it moves forward, and the length between the leech and the forestay increases, flattening and depowering the sail further. That reduces weather helm and heeling some.

The good news about the fact that tightening the backstay on a masthead rig with an inflexible spar mostly affects the jib, is that the jib is typically substantially larger than mainsail, so if you are going to impact only one sail, its good that it's the bigger of the two. The bad news is that most of the impact is closer to the lateral center of resistance (than on a fractional rig), and so has less leverage to change weather helm.

As the racing rules began to evolve, masthead rig mainsails became proportionately larger. And as mainsails became larger, designers began to attempt to get the kind of sail shape control that comes naturally on a fractional rig. And from that came masthead rigs with bendy spars. Because masthead rigs lack the natural bending fulcrum that the forestay provides on a fractional rig, the earliest bendy masthead rigs were bent simply by increasing the backstay tension until a controlled buckling occurred in the mast. Quickly, checkstays were added to control the amount of the buckling.

For those who are not familiar with rigging terms, checkstays are different than running backstays. Running backstays are a backstay, which attaches to the mast at the hounds (where a jibstay is attached to the mast) and are mostly found opposing jibstays on cutters and forestays fractional rigged boats. They are called running backstays because their attachment point below the head of the mast, means that the leeward one needs to be eased, and the windward one needs to be tightened on each tack or jibe. This easing and tightening every tack and jibe is done in a variety of manners.

Checkstays attach to the mast between the forestay or jibstay and the deck. While they may look like a running backstay their role is strictly to control the amount of bend in the mast, and not to oppose the forward force of a jibstay. But like a running backstay because of the rig geometry and their position below the masthead, they too need the leeward one eased, and the windward one needs tightened on each tack or jibe.

And while checkstays allowed bending via a controlled buckling of a flexible spar masthead rig in the forward direction, it did not prevent the spar from 'inverting' due to spin pole reaching forces or pumping, and buckling aft. That quickly resulted in adding babystays. And as soon as baby stays showed up on the scene, crews and designers figured out how to tension them so that they acted as a fulcrum to induce bending in the mast with lower compressive forces in much the forestay does this on a fractional rig.

The shortcomings of babystays are that they make tacking and jibing more difficult, and they do not address the inherent inefficiencies of a masthead rig. But when used in concert with the backstay tensioner, they allow similar depowering characteristics to adjusting the backstay on a fractional rig, but of course with more complexity and multiple items to properly adjust in sync with each other.

While not exactly a part of this question, as a broad generality, for the reasons described above, for a given sail area, a masthead rig puts significantly greater strain on a hull and its rig. This of course can be offset by proper engineering, but that engineering typically results in needing a heavier mast, shrouds and stays, and additional hull structure, which tends to make masthead rig boats heavier than a fractionally rigged boat with similar safety margins.

Its not unusual to hear a novice say that some particular manufacturer's masthead rigger is much better rigged than some other manufacturer's fractional rigger since the frac has lighter shrouds, and spars and smaller winches, when in fact, the Frac may have larger safety margins and better sized hardware, and with a lighter and more easily adaptable rig, the Frac may also have more stability, or need less ballast to obtain a similar stability.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

ScottUK said:


> Cheers Jeff.
> 
> So from what I gather the mainsail is flattened at the leading edge in the area of the mast bend and then the leech would not have as much tension thus adding more twist and spilling more wind. It has been what I thought but have heard conflicting information.
> 
> I understand moving the top of the forestay aft and down would also decrease the tension on the leech of the headsail and so induce twist. Not sure about flattening the headsail though. If the foreatay tension is tight and is moved aft through increased backstay tension wouldn't this just decrease the angle of the straight line of the forestay and not reall effect the luff. But I guess it would all depend on the initial forestay tension.


As a broad general rule, as the wind increases the headstay sags more, and this is especially true on a fractional rig where the increased headstay forces induce more mast bend. When you tighten the backstay, this increases the tension on the forestay and that reduces this sag. When you reduce sag, almost by definition, the stay itself moves forward and to windward. And this increases the distance between the leech of the sail and the stay. As that distance increases, the jib is flattened and therefore depowered.

Jeff


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## PaulinVictoria (Aug 23, 2009)

Fantastic, thank you very much indeed Jeff, you're a star. I even understood it!


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Great explanation Jeff .thank you. ? Do you see any advantages to mast head rigs? Just came in from sailing. Variable day. Have Solent rig. Find if I leave tension on furled genny halyard a little loose get more out of the back stay.? Am I just fooling myself ? Obviously leave tension in actual stay the same all year once tuned.


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## SkywalkerII (Feb 20, 2008)

Just want to point out how lucky we all are. We all have whatever level of experience, interest, academic background to opine on various topics. But we get to read and interact with a truly accomplished yatch architect.

It reminds me of a conversation I had years ago with a large animal vet (my wife is an equestrian and has had several horses over the years). He was describing his "experience" of horse owners.

"There are two ways I know of to becoming an equestrian vet and an expert on horses. The first is to go to college, go to veterinarian school, intern, pass your boards. The other is to buy a horse."

Skywalker


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

I drive past dairy farms all the time up here.
I really want to own two milk cows.
I would treat them really well.
I'd feed them beer.

It's my dream.


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## SkywalkerII (Feb 20, 2008)

Nice dream

I'll donate to the cause. Anyone who recognizes the many uses of beer gets my support.


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## ScottUK (Aug 16, 2009)

Cheers Jeff


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## blutoyz (Oct 28, 2012)

All this talk of heeling has made me want to go out and buy a clinometer today and mount it. I just heel until it slows me down right now but I am curios to see what angle that is.

I do not plan on buying a horse of a cow though


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

Jeff_H said:


> As a broad general rule, as the wind increases the headstay sags more, and this is especially true on a fractional rig where the increased headstay forces induce more mast bend. When you tighten the backstay, this increases the tension on the forestay and that reduces this sag. When you reduce sag, almost by definition, the stay itself moves forward and to windward. And this increases the distance between the leech of the sail and the stay. As that distance increases, the jib is flattened and therefore depowered.
> 
> Jeff


This explains the small triangle the Oday used to use on their rigs on the backstay. With the Mainsheet hooked to it, the more tension on the sheet, the tighter it pulled the stay


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

Jeff_H,

It appears your photo made the BoatUS Foundation facebook quiz today:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151655531857775&set=a.99586282774.95081.64528812774&type=1&theater

or here: https://www.facebook.com/BoatUSFoundation


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

Ok, Jeff despite your disclaimer NOT to read your responses on both fractionals and mastheads, I couldn't help myself, as I find posts by both yourself and Bob P to be 2 very good reasons (among many) to scour through these forums...

You've mentioned in the past that you think the mast on the Capri 25 to be "bendy" for a masthead rig. I've read through countless information from the association and also other Capri 25 sailors who consider it rather prone to resist bending.

More information is, the rig does not have running backs, or a baby stay... it does however, have 2 lowers on each side, one forward of the mast, one aft (I am guessing this was a design requirement to hold the middle of the mast in place while cranking on the backstay, to as you say, control buckling). Again its on a 25 foot boat, so this is a lot of standing rigging for such a small boat (which agrees with your statement that the mastheads put more loading on the rigging).

I suppose the question is to that itself. My own experience on the boat denotes very little depowering taking place with increased backstay tension -Does this indicate a less bendy mast, or is it due to the nature of the lowers that it FEELS less bendy? Or just as much a result of the rather unsophisticated tensioner for the backstay.

I get SOME depowering while tensioning backstay (which I note tensions forestay as well, and therefore flattens the entry on the genoa, and opens the leech). For my money if I need to depower more I usually just slide genoa cars back some, this after I've cranked on backstay and haven't depowered enough.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Schnool:
If your aft lowers are tight you are going to have a very hard time bending the mast. I would tune that mast with aft lowers on the slack side and more tension on the forward lowers. This will give you some room to bend it.


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

Bob, that follows with the tunning guide (to just snug the aft lowers up with no backstay on, and tension the forward lowers to account for 1-1.5" pre-bend)... Maybe I've overtightened them (now I'll be checking - again)... maybe that's why I am not getting a whole lot of reaction to backstay tension... hmmm, might have tightened forwards for prebend, after I did the aft lowers... probably should have done it other way around.

Ugh, rig tuning, not my forte'.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Right. Tighten forward lowers first to get the bend started. Then snug up the aft lowers but not too much. This si the wat all the Valiant were originally rigged and in fact in the early IOR days almost al bokat were rigged with for and aft lowers. It waas a radical move to go to in line lowers and baby stays.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

That is really funny! Thank you for pointing that out. Who knew Synergy was a quiz show star?

Jeff



jameswilson29 said:


> Jeff_H,
> 
> It appears your photo made the BoatUS Foundation facebook quiz today:
> 
> ...


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I must admit that my recollection of sailing on a Capri 25 is decades old and is somewhat based on masthead rigs from the immediately preceding era. (Think Cal 25 or Morgan 25) So the Capri seemed like a good compromise between having a little mast bend and yet enough stiffness to keep proper headstay tension. Fractional riggers got a bad rep for not being able to beat back then because of headstay sag. That changed when sail lofts learned to match the luff hollow on frac's to the headstay sag.

Jeff



SHNOOL said:


> Ok, Jeff despite your disclaimer NOT to read your responses on both fractionals and mastheads, I couldn't help myself, as I find posts by both yourself and Bob P to be 2 very good reasons (among many) to scour through these forums...
> 
> You've mentioned in the past that you think the mast on the Capri 25 to be "bendy" for a masthead rig. I've read through countless information from the association and also other Capri 25 sailors who consider it rather prone to resist bending.
> 
> ...


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## Stefman (Dec 7, 2013)

We wash the windows every chance we get when not racing.


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## socal c25 (Nov 1, 2013)

Stefman said:


> We wash the windows every chance we get when not racing.


been there done that..... Many times just for s#!ts and giggles, That really lights a fire under the butts of lazy crew members.:laugher


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## Pegu club (Jun 10, 2012)

So, what would you "old salts" say about a 1975 Bristol corsair 24'7" as to its likely average effective heel angle, she is just under six grand with three grand under water, what say you guys? Thanks much.

Our first year with her.


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## billyruffn (Sep 21, 2004)

I agree with the 15 degree guys. 

On BR when I hit 15 I reef. Before I have a 1/3 turn on the wheel I reef. When it's "hard to steer" I reef.

Don't scare your crew, especially if they're your wife and kids. They won't come back. You won't like that.


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