# Please tell me I am not crazy?



## OceanCKR (Oct 15, 2010)

I searched for posts that would enlighten me to my exact situation, nothing seemed to tell me that I could be making a really bad decision, or maybe a good one. That said, my wife and I are considering selling our house and moving aboard a boat with our 2 children (son 8, daughter 5). I can't seem to find a post in any liveaboard forum that speaks specifically about the pros and cons of just living aboard a boat this size as a family in a slip in San Diego, raising kids, learning to sail, living in a floating condo for just that reason.

Our plan... this is where I need to know if I am crazy, or if this might actually work. Sell the house, buy a 50 foot boat with 3 staterooms and and liveaboard in a marina in San Diego (Shelter Island, or near by) while the kids go to school in Pt. Loma. The reason for this is that we are tired of paying a huge mortgage and are looking to simplify life and save some money for our future. We are tired of the concrete jungle and keeping up with the Jones's. We are incredibly close and are the kind of family who can be in close quarters together. We are a very adventurous and out doors family, camping regularly, traveling the world. I am an avid surfer and diver, the ocean is my home away home.

I have read many threads about the difficulties of just getting a slip this big as a liveaboard. Also how the lifestyle or those other liveaboards around us may not be the best environment to raise our kids in. Whether it is safe or not for my wife and kids while I am at work all day? 

I really just want or need to hear that this is either a terrible idea, or one that will work if we make it work. I know that there are lots of challenges with owning a boat, all the maintenance etc. Will we even be able to find a liveaboard slip for a boat this size? We are willing to accept and embrace this lifestyle, it is what we think want to do in preparation for eventually departing on a global cruising adventure once the kids are on their own.


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## St Anna (Mar 15, 2003)

If its what you guys want to do - go for it, find the positives, listen to the negatives and only act on those which need attention, ignore the rest.

You will find that some poelpe are jeolous and want to see you fail, others just dont understand. Others are supportive. Its your life, not theirs - Life is short - go for it.

Oh, yeah your crazy!!! Like the rest of us.


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## eryka (Mar 16, 2006)

St Anna - that's it *Exactly*! Let me ask this question when you get the scary advice - consider the source. Are the people who are telling you its dangerous, etc liveaboards themselves, or are they speculating based on stories they read on the internet?

Been living aboard 8+ years now, partly in a marina and partly cruising; it's been the best community I've ever lived in, and will only go back to land life when I'm too feeble to walk down the dock unassisted. "Captain Force" on this forum raised a family living aboard and is cruising now that the kids are grown and gone, or this blog from some folks who are marina living raising a 6-year-old and baby sister incubating Zach Aboard


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## Matvolver (Sep 27, 2010)

CKR - you're not crazy at all (at least in that regards :laugher )

The whole reason I'm looking at living on a sailboat was because I was listening to the radio and they told a story about a family who sailed the world for 8 years together to grow closer together. Before that, I never realized you could do that (live on a boat) in the first place. I've read several blogs about living at sea with kids - apparently they do survive the parents insanities to go on and sail themselves  

I would suggest you consider some extended cruises once you get to know your boat better - one of the finer points of living on a sailboat is the fact that you can move to other places whenever you feel like it  I can't imagine the kids complaining about a summer vacation in Hawaii or the Bahamas  

As St Anna said, it's YOUR life, as well it's YOUR responsibility as to how you raise your children - not the place of others to tell you how to raise them! I think it would be wonderful of you to give your kids the opportunity to learn about boats and the places they can take you - and how would it be more dangerous to live in than the concrete jungle anyways?  

best wishes for your future - and your kids


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

OceanCKR said:


> I searched for posts that would enlighten me to my exact situation, nothing seemed to tell me that I could be making a really bad decision, or maybe a good one. That said, my wife and I are considering selling our house and moving aboard a boat with our 2 children (son 8, daughter 5). I can't seem to find a post in any liveaboard forum that speaks specifically about the pros and cons of just living aboard a boat this size as a family in a slip in San Diego, raising kids, learning to sail, living in a floating condo for just that reason.


Have you or your wife ever been on a boat for extended periods of time? If not, you might want to try staying on a boat for a week or so before making this leap. If you and your wife are susceptible to sea sickness of any serious sort, you would probably be better off finding out before making a commitment that is hard to change.



> Our plan... this is where I need to know if I am crazy, or if this might actually work. Sell the house, buy a 50 foot boat with 3 staterooms and and liveaboard in a marina in San Diego (Shelter Island, or near by) while the kids go to school in Pt. Loma. The reason for this is that we are tired of paying a huge mortgage and are looking to simplify life and save some money for our future. We are tired of the concrete jungle and keeping up with the Jones's. We are incredibly close and are the kind of family who can be in close quarters together. We are a very adventurous and out doors family, camping regularly, traveling the world. I am an avid surfer and diver, the ocean is my home away home.


Instead of getting a 50' boat, you might want to consider getting a smaller catamaran, like a Gemini 105Mc instead. The boat will likely be far less expensive-since a Gemini can be had for about $170,000 new, versus $400,000 for a 50' monohull, and it will have about as much interior space. Also, a catamaran will be far more comfortable at anchor or a slip than a monohull, since it will not roll.

Your costs will also be much lower, since most marinas charge by the foot for many services including slips, and a Gemini is narrow enough that it will not incur additional charges for excessive beam and fits in a standard 40' slip.



> I have read many threads about the difficulties of just getting a slip this big as a liveaboard. Also how the lifestyle or those other liveaboards around us may not be the best environment to raise our kids in. Whether it is safe or not for my wife and kids while I am at work all day?


Why would you think this? If you pick a good marina, then the other liveaboards will be a huge bonus...just like any neighborhood on land. Pick the wrong marina... then your neighbors will be problematic, just like it can be on dry land.



> I really just want or need to hear that this is either a terrible idea, or one that will work if we make it work. I know that there are lots of challenges with owning a boat, all the maintenance etc. Will we even be able to find a liveaboard slip for a boat this size? We are willing to accept and embrace this lifestyle, it is what we think want to do in preparation for eventually departing on a global cruising adventure once the kids are on their own.


Ideally, you should keep the boat close to ready to sail.... living on a boat that isn't ready to go will be frustrating, especially if you want to take short weekend trips.


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## OceanCKR (Oct 15, 2010)

Thanks St Anna, it is what we think we want to do. Of course both of us are definitely scared to make the leap, I think anyone would be for the most part. We are not the type to be influenced by others, I am just looking to see if the majority agrees that you can find a peaceful and safe liveaboard experience in San Diego to replace living in a house.

Thank you!



St Anna said:


> If its what you guys want to do - go for it, find the positives, listen to the negatives and only act on those which need attention, ignore the rest.
> 
> You will find that some poelpe are jeolous and want to see you fail, others just dont understand. Others are supportive. Its your life, not theirs - Life is short - go for it.
> 
> Oh, yeah your crazy!!! Like the rest of us.


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## OceanCKR (Oct 15, 2010)

Appreciate the feedback eryka, any other blog's of liveaboards you know of would be greatly appreciated, I really like reading the personal stories!



eryka said:


> St Anna - that's it *Exactly*! Let me ask this question when you get the scary advice - consider the source. Are the people who are telling you its dangerous, etc liveaboards themselves, or are they speculating based on stories they read on the internet?
> 
> Been living aboard 8+ years now, partly in a marina and partly cruising; it's been the best community I've ever lived in, and will only go back to land life when I'm too feeble to walk down the dock unassisted. "Captain Force" on this forum raised a family living aboard and is cruising now that the kids are grown and gone, or this blog from some folks who are marina living raising a 6-year-old and baby sister incubating Zach Aboard


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## OceanCKR (Oct 15, 2010)

I too have read and learned of these same stories of families having a wonderful time as a liveaboard. That and the fact that I have already spent much of my life on or below the ocean is why I want to do this. I don't want my kids growing up thinking a 5 bedroom house and luxury cars are the norm. I have lived all over the world and in some crazy places and I know this is not the reality I want them to believe in.



Matvolver said:


> CKR - you're not crazy at all (at least in that regards :laugher )
> 
> The whole reason I'm looking at living on a sailboat was because I was listening to the radio and they told a story about a family who sailed the world for 8 years together to grow closer together. Before that, I never realized you could do that (live on a boat) in the first place. I've read several blogs about living at sea with kids - apparently they do survive the parents insanities to go on and sail themselves
> 
> ...


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## QuickMick (Oct 15, 2009)

I have found the marina community to be filled with some of the nicest and most responsible 'neighbors' one could have. As SD mentioned, you may want to either rent a boat or consider taking a 7-14 day vacation on a charter somewhere to make sure the close quarter thing works as per your thinking.
i dont think you are crazy at all. the three stateroom thing makes sense, as was mentioned in another thread that kids really like having their own space, but you probably already know that...

i dont think you are crazy at all, if you can get out of the house without getting killed in the current real estate market....

good luck


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

OceanCKR said:


> Our plan...Sell the house, buy a 50 foot boat with 3 staterooms. We are tired of keeping up with the Jones's.


Keep trying. I own a 52 foot boat with 4 staterooms.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

If I was going to simply park in a marina and live there, I wouldn't choose a sailboat as the platform. Some kind of motorboat, like a trawler or cockpit motoryacht, or a houseboat would be my choice.

Sailboats are dynamic working machines, and don't make the greatest "floating condos". You'd be investing a lot of your money in a working sail rig/sails/etc, that would rarely get used and would be in the way. The layout of a motoryacht or houseboat is much better for a mostly stationary liveaboard situation.

That wouldn't mean you'd have to give up on letting the kids learn to sail and play around on the water. You'd just get them some kayaks and sailing dinghies and they could have a blast.

All that said, if I was going to be parked in the marina all the time, personally I'd prefer to live ashore. I love boats and sailing and all that, but a big part of the attraction is the ability to roam around freely. Being stationary would wear out quickly for me. I'd be looking at the open houses in no time.

Also, keep in mind that it is much easier to live and cruise aboard a boat, when you are fully unplugged from shoreside society. It is more difficult when you have a foot on shore and one on the boat, especially when it involves kids. You will still be plugged into school systems and related activities, not to mention work. A lot of those shoreside things you'll still have to do will be logistically more difficult from a boat and marina. Maybe it will feel less hectic, maybe not?

There are certainly folks who do it, and hopefully you'll hear from some. I'm just hoping you'll go into it with your eyes wide open, fully realizing the implications. That can be hard to do if you have little or no boating experience.

Just as a random example, do you understand how the toilet plumbing works on a boat? You will need to keep all the "waste" in a tank on your boat. When it fills up, you will have to have the tank pumped out at a pump out station. Depending the size of the tank, with a family of four, you may get 3-5 days between pump outs. And you will always be fretting about the status of that tank -- will it max-out at 2 am one morning, with no more flushes until you can pump it out the day after tomorrow?

Anyway, I am not trying to persuade you one way or the other. But it doesn't sound to me like you have a true appreciation for the realities you will face. Liveaboard life looks perfectly idyllic from a distance, but it actually requires a fair bit of hard work -- just like life ashore. There are plenty of costs, too, so don't assume that it's a no/low-cost existence -- boats, slips, maintenance are all expensive, just like a house ashore.

Best of luck to you.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

JRP—

If you're living aboard in a marina, you can often use the marina's facilities, and then reserve the on-board head for emergency use only... that will make it go a lot further between pumpouts. Some marinas also have pumpout facilities at them, which simplifies things.


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## QuickMick (Oct 15, 2009)

JohnRPollard said:


> If I was going to simply park in a marina and live there, I wouldn't choose a sailboat as the platform. Some kind of motorboat, like a trawler or cockpit motoryacht, or a houseboat would be my choice.


maybe worth noting that the sailboat community is significantly (imho) less 'party oriented' than the powerboaters... if i had young children i would feel much more comfortable in the sailboat docks. while im sure this isnt always the case (you may find a laid back power dock), as a rule of thumb it seems to hold true.

so the kids can still have uncrowded play dates and parties and such, you may even consider a combination of a boat and 'dockaminium'

Properties for sale in COVE DOCKAMINIUM, Deerfield of South East Florida


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

sailingdog said:


> JRP-
> 
> If you're living aboard in a marina, you can often use the marina's facilities, and then reserve the on-board head for emergency use only... that will make it go a lot further between pumpouts. Some marinas also have pumpout facilities at them, which simplifies things.


Dan,

That works okay for adults (sometimes), but with young kids you're not going to be schlepping off to the bathhouse every time someone needs to go potty (about 20 times a day). And anytime they do go to the bathhouse, you'll have to accompany them because the bathhouse is a public bathroom and parents don't send their young kids off alone to such places. So the logistics of using the bathhouse end up being another one of those unforeseen complications that may not sound like such a big deal for a weekend but that day in and day out become one of Dante's inner circles...


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

QuickMick said:


> maybe worth noting that the sailboat community is significantly (imho) less 'party oriented' than the powerboaters... if i had young children i would feel much more comfortable in the sailboat docks. while im sure this isnt always the case (you may find a laid back power dock), as a rule of thumb it seems to hold true.
> 
> so the kids can still have uncrowded play dates and parties and such, you may even consider a combination of a boat and 'dockaminium'
> 
> Properties for sale in COVE DOCKAMINIUM, Deerfield of South East Florida


I guess it depends on the marina. At ours, the powerboats and sailboats are not necessarily segregated.

And I'm not talking about hanging with the "Searay" crowd either. A lot of the folks on trawlers and motoryachts are just aged sailors that want to stay on the water but can no longer manage the workings of sail.


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## QuickMick (Oct 15, 2009)

gotta love it any time you can work 'schlepping' into a conversation! lol. in TX to discourage illegal dumping they have reduced the cost of pump out to 5bucks, and my current marina even has a service that will bring the _m/v pooper pumpout_ right to your slip for a service fee.

edit--between schlepping and the 'sea ray crowd' you are cracking me up. thats interesting about the non-segregation. at my place the p/b'ers are all in covered slips--except one yahoo w/a 28' pontoon that needs a 40' slip (which he still crashes into) to dock w/o incident.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Q: you know what the difference is between a catamaran and a pontoon boat?
A: about $100k, three trucker hats, 6 fishing poles and 5 cases of PBR.


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## rmeador (Jan 16, 2010)

I think it's a great idea! I wish my parents had done something similar (and I think they do too). I am 26 and I just started living aboard a few weeks ago. It has been a blast, and I'm sure it will only get better, despite the approaching winter. I've spent a lot more money fitting out my boat than I imagined I would at the start -- be wary of that. I think these expendatures are nearing their end, however, and I"ll be able to get by with a budget comparable to what I was paying ashore for my apartment (with a roommate! now I have privacy). I read two books before starting this adventure: The Essentials of Living Aboard a Boat (by Mark Nicholas, who occasionally posts on this forum), and All In The Same Boat (by Tom Neale). I think you should read both, but particularly the latter, as it is about a family of 4 that bought a boat and started living aboard and cruising. I think you'll get a lot out of it.


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## QuickMick (Oct 15, 2009)

bljones said:


> Q: you know what the difference is between a catamaran and a pontoon boat?
> A: about $100k, three trucker hats, 6 fishing poles and 5 cases of PBR.


he he he... uhhh wait a sec... ive got 6 fishin poles... only one trucker hat... no PBR, but i am a sucker for this:

Brian's Belly | Pabst Blue Ribbon: Blue Velvet


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Yup...ran across a big (72') powerboat that was named Retired Sailor III... beautiful boat...but not one I'd own.



JohnRPollard said:


> I guess it depends on the marina. At ours, the powerboats and sailboats are not necessarily segregated.
> 
> And I'm not talking about hanging with the "Searay" crowd either. A lot of the folks on trawlers and motoryachts are just aged sailors that want to stay on the water but can no longer manage the workings of sail.


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## remetau (Jan 27, 2009)

QuickMick said:


> gotta love it any time you can work 'schlepping' into a conversation! lol. in TX to discourage illegal dumping they have reduced the cost of pump out to 5bucks, and my current marina even has a service that will bring the _m/v pooper pumpout_ right to your slip for a service fee.


Our marina has pump-outs at each dock. They come around once a week and pump out boats on the list. I pump our own out, and I could do so more than once a week if desired, but haven't had to yet.


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## OceanCKR (Oct 15, 2010)

Sailingdog, thanks very much for your time to reply in depth, see my replies back.



sailingdog said:


> Have you or your wife ever been on a boat for extended periods of time? If not, you might want to try staying on a boat for a week or so before making this leap. If you and your wife are susceptible to sea sickness of any serious sort, you would probably be better off finding out before making a commitment that is hard to change.
> 
> No, however we have spent a few days aboard a 26 foot McGregor sailing from Mission Bay to Catalina, no problems at all. I have worked on boats as a Divemaster, I have no problems. I have also been on other sailboats with friends and love it dearly. The kids have not, so they may have some adjusting to get through, however they never get car sick and can ride the craziest rides at amusement parks so I think they will be fine.
> 
> ...


We will use the boat regularly. The whole plan is to do a lot of inter coastal trips over the next few years to get as many hours under us as possible for eventual cast off to cruise.


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

Just like moving to a specific new neighborhood, why don't you find the specific marina where you'll be moving to? Then it would be more of a normal move "toward" something, not a (justifiably scary) move "away" from something and toward a complete unknown.

Go to marinas, talk to the liveaboards. Talk to the managers too.

Regards,
Brad


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

By the way, the former Moorings boats are good, IMHO. We bought the 4-cabin (plus crews quarters forward to use as a garage) 2000 Beneteau 505.

Regards,
Brad


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## OceanCKR (Oct 15, 2010)

thanks Bene, that is what I have in the immediate plans, to visit all the marinas in and around Shelter/Harbor Island. By the way, one of the boats I have my eye on is the Beneteau Oceanis 510 "Owners" version which has a 3 stateroom layout, not the 4 room charter layout.



Bene505 said:


> Just like moving to a specific new neighborhood, why don't you find the specific marina where you'll be moving to? Then it would be more of a normal move "toward" something, not a (justifiably scary) move "away" from something and toward a complete unknown.
> 
> Go to marinas, talk to the liveaboards. Talk to the managers too.
> 
> ...


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## OceanCKR (Oct 15, 2010)

John, very much appreciate the response. The reason for the monohull sailboat is to train and prepare for an eventual circumnavigation. I don't understand how the pumping works, or at least I do understand that you have to pump-out, that much I do know. I have spent time on boats, mainly working as a divemaster, but have sailed as well, just never as a liveaboard with a family! What I would like very much is to hear from another family who is doing this now in San Diego and can share much of their insights with me.



JohnRPollard said:


> If I was going to simply park in a marina and live there, I wouldn't choose a sailboat as the platform. Some kind of motorboat, like a trawler or cockpit motoryacht, or a houseboat would be my choice.
> 
> Sailboats are dynamic working machines, and don't make the greatest "floating condos". You'd be investing a lot of your money in a working sail rig/sails/etc, that would rarely get used and would be in the way. The layout of a motoryacht or houseboat is much better for a mostly stationary liveaboard situation.
> 
> ...


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## rmeador (Jan 16, 2010)

OceanCKR said:


> The reason for the monohull sailboat is to train and prepare for an eventual circumnavigation.


This seems to indicate you believe it is not possible to circumnavigate in a catamaran. That is certainly not true. I'm sure SD will be along shortly to extol the seakeeping virtues of the multihull.


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

You're not crazy, there I said it


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## remetau (Jan 27, 2009)

I'm not crazy. Everybody else is.


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## QuickMick (Oct 15, 2009)

ok, ok... who always chimes in with the tin foil colander hat comments? time to make an appearance...



crap, he _KINDA LOOKS LIKE ME!!!_


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

There's a reason for that... it was you... 



QuickMick said:


> ok, ok... who always chimes in with the tin foil colander hat comments? time to make an appearance...
> 
> 
> 
> crap, he _KINDA LOOKS LIKE ME!!!_


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

> I have considered a cat, however from what I hear they are much more difficult to get a liveaboard slip for because of the width. Also, I have been looking at 50+ DuFour's, Beneteau's, and some other types that are less than 10 years old and are priced under $200K which is my max budget for a purchase. I have not seen any cats under $200K, but maybe I am not looking in all the right places? Also, we do plan to circumnavigate at some point and want to gain the experience and training on our liveaboard mono prior to making that passage.


The Gemini 105 I mentioned is available NEW for under $200,000. It also fits in a normal 40' slip, and I've never been charged for more than a monohull when I've been on one. There are two currently circumnavigating...

I'd also point out that the sails, ground tackle and other gear on the 50' boats may be too much for you or your better half to handle by herself, where the sails and ground tackle are far more reasonably sized on a 34' catamaran.

You have to remember, when sailing on a longer passage, *you're often two people EFFECTIVELY SINGLEHANDING THE SAME BOAT. * If you get too large a boat, it will be more difficult for you or your SO to singlehand it at those times....putting you both at more risk. This is especially true if the electric winches/windlass/etc., that you will be dependent on fail-and they usually pick the worst time to fail.


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## ilikerust (Apr 19, 2010)

Might want to check out "Living Aboard" magazine:

Living Aboard Magazine

There's a forum there as well - I'm sure you can get more answers, suggestions and advice than you'll know what to do with.


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## OceanCKR (Oct 15, 2010)

No, that is not my rationale, I just prefer a mono hull. It is purely a personal preference and nothing else.



rmeador said:


> This seems to indicate you believe it is not possible to circumnavigate in a catamaran. That is certainly not true. I'm sure SD will be along shortly to extol the seakeeping virtues of the multihull.


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## eryka (Mar 16, 2006)

Hi Ocean - for your (quick) reading pleasure, another article on living aboard: Life on a boat: trading "stuff" for freedom | Parks & Recreation | Find Articles at BNET


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## MarioG (Sep 6, 2009)

if you jump over to SailFar.net and convers with Captain Smollett, he has been doing what you are talking about for the last 3 yr with wife and 2 kids about the same age on an Alberg 30


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

MarioG said:


> if you jump over to SailFar.net and convers with Captain Smollett, he has been doing what you are talking about for the last 3 yr with wife and 2 kids about the same age on an Alberg 30


Good point.


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## seaparrot (May 14, 2010)

I hope you are not crazy. Because that would make me crazy!

My husband and I are strongly considering buying a boat to live aboard and sail. This dream is a couple of years off, because realistically that is how long it will take us to save enough money to purchase a boat. 

Most people will probably consider us nuts, but I am hoping to liveaboard for a whole series of personal reasons that I find compelling. Financially, I can afford two of the following three things: (1) a house, (2) a boat, and (3) retirement. Most people would take (1) and (3), but I'd rather have (2) and (3)!!

The second reason -- the bigger reason, really -- is that I just like the idea of throwing out all our junk and moving *that* close to the water. I love the maritime atmosphere, the boats, and the Chesapeake Bay. We've already downsized from a house to a 2-bedroom apartment, and from that to using just the living room and bedroom. If I convert my vast collection of books into electronic information and mournfully toss the kitchen gadgets (I admit, I love to cook), I really won't have anything left except for my pet parrot. So why do I need a house, when I just want to be on the water? The lifestyle is, for me, a real draw.

The third reason: I actually want to raise our children on a boat, at least for part of their childhoods. I am sure this point proves that we are oddballs, but I like the idea of living a bit of an alternate lifestyle. I really want us to do interesting things together as a family, the sort of things that give young people are different "take" on life and some very practical skills they can "own". So I see the boat as a good springboard for this goal. I had a rough time in school as a kid, and sort of got rescued in my teen years when some wise adults let me do my own thing and build some strong personal interests and skills. I haven't forgotten that fact.

Anyway, that's my unusual two cents. I say go for it, if provided that you understand the decision you are making and your wife and children are equally interested. It's one thing to want to do something unusual as a family, its another if you are dragging people into it. In my husband and my case, I feel confident because this is something we're both quite passionate about & and I have some confidence that our future kids will take it all instride, at least when young. 

Somebody will probably say that you aren't planning to provide enough "privacy" or "space" or whatever -- but consider what a life and career skill it is NOT to feel you *need* a suburban home with separate bedrooms. You don't get it in college, or on submarines ... 

In any case, you know your family and what will work (or not). This strikes me as the sort of thing that is too individual to generalize about.

Regarding boats, I am still a novice to sailing and so I won't offer boat recommendations. But assuming that you plan actually to sail your boat, you might look at something smaller than 50' to see if will meet your needs. My general understanding is that it is hard to single-hand such a large boat and also far, far more expensive to maintain one. Its hard to find three rooms on the smaller boats, but you might take a look at the 40 and 42 foot catalinas, which have three-room options. I have had a crush on the 42 mii all this week, after my husband carried home a bunch of information about it. I also notice that the Dufours have a similar arrangement.

The only thing I feel I should add is -- if you are doing this to "simplify", and if by "simplify" you mean "pay less money than your sinking into your house," then make sure you understand the full costs of owning and maintaining a boat before you decide. My very, very, very preliminary estimates on our projected costs in Annapolis Maryland all make the boat equal to or more expensive than a nice apartment in the same city. If we make the jump to live aboard, it won't be to save money on our waterfront apartment! It will be sheerly for the purpose of acquiring and enjoying a boat.

BTW, I want to add that I am actively learning right now -- about all these topics -- so you should not take anything I say as the voice of experience, merely the voice if the studious novice. Listen to the old pros on here for the real deal.


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## ccriders (Jul 8, 2006)

Hey Seaparrot,
I'm really wowed by your post. None of us really wants to go down the primrose path, but few of us can just cast off and go our own way, expecially when the children come along. I hope you can hold on to your realization of life and squeze every vital essence from it.
And OceanCKR, you didn't give a time line for setting sail for the hinterworld. If you are looking at five years or so, maybe downsizing your land based accomodations like Seaparrot has done, getting a smaller boat, say mid 30 or so feet and really focus on sailing. Move aboard Friday night and stay to Monday morning, then back to the 8-5 shoreside drill for the week. You will know soon enough if you want to be there 24/7.
And, If your family is with you, then you are not crazy.
Start listening to Jaques Brel. he will steel your nerves to pull the plug.
Buona Fortuna,
John


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## OceanCKR (Oct 15, 2010)

Allow me to add some additional details that may give more insight into our plan and some of these responses. The idea behind purchasing a 50 foot boat is based on space. I have looked at smaller boats and they just are not big enough to house some of the amenities we can get on a 50+. Such as a decent refrigerator, large salon, bigger galley and counter space, storage, shower, etc. I just haven't seen a 40 something size boat with all of this that would make a liveaboard for a family of four as comfortable. 

Many of the 50's I have looked at are rigged for easier sailing, definitely able to be handled by two people. Again, this is not the boat we would depart on a long range cruise on, just the size that would allow some comforts for a family. We will downsize once the kids are on their own, for a boat that is more reasonable for just the wife and I. 

As far as costs go, the only figures I have been able to obtain are slip fees and liveaboard fees at some of the marinas here in San Diego. It looks like it will cost me about $1,000 - $1,400 for just these fees. I have no idea what the other costs are associated with living aboard. I don't know how often I would need to haul out and the costs for that. I don't know what shore power would run, water, pump out, monthly bottom cleaning, or other regularly needed maintenance. These are many of the points I am seeking input on since I don't know what they are. I do know that we would add solar panels to cut down on electrical requirements if that would help cut costs. 

I definitely have a hard time believing it would cost me more than $2,000/month all in, and if that is the case, I am much better off than paying the mortgage I have which is much more than that.

If any of you who have already shared such great information can comment on what you think the monthly costs would be, or are, I would love to hear more about what you are paying for all of these fees?


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## MarkN (Jan 11, 2008)

You're not crazy. Well... you are a bit. But this is the lifestyle that so many of us love and would support to the bitter end.

My advice is to make sure that everyone is on board (pun intended). No matter the size of vessel, things can feel very small aboard when everyone is not getting along. Moreover, getting along aboard means that physical contact must be okay under all conditions, since areas tend to be small and just walking past another person might involve contact. I have known more than one familiy that lost their dream because of either of these issues.

Best of luck - I am a big supporter if this is your goal.

Mark
Living Aboard | The Essentials of Living Aboard a Boat by Mark Nicholas | Living Aboard.net


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## eryka (Mar 16, 2006)

Ocean - there are lots of threads and articles about basic costs for living aboard, but in truth all anyone can tell you is what *their* costs are. Its a lot like asking "how much does a car cost?" If you're thinking "Chrysler" and I'm thinking "Mercedes" you're not going to get any useful information from me!

My take on it is this, though - it's a mistake to assume, a priori, that you need a given size boat to have all the comforts you (think you) need based on how you live your land life. If you do, you will not find it cheaper on the water than on land. It's too early in your process to get committed to the 50-foot length.

Anyway, a couple of examples from 2 people who are beginning their ninth year on a 33-foot boat. When we were first boat-shopping, we looked at downsizing from our 3-bedroom plus loft/home office house. We "assumed" we'd need a second cabin for the office. What we learned was that the nav. station became our office and we didn't need quite such a big boat after all. Similarly, this is the first time since grad school that I haven't had a washer & dryer at my home. I wouldn't have anticipated that this was something I'd do without; seemed like a step down in standard of living when we were planning and shopping and specifiying our "needs". But on the boat, washer/dryer needed more water and more space and more power than we were willing to pay for. Yes, laundromat can be a hassle ... but we've met some interesting people there, and gotten some opportunities that we wouldn't have otherwise. We were in a laundromat in the Bahamas when we saw a notice looking for a tutor at the local school (and a wonderful chance to get connected to the community) that we would never have known otherwise: Getting to the "Point;" Sticking to the "Point" | Jaye Lunsford - Life Afloat | Blogs (www.HometownAnnapolis.com - The Capital)

Finally, I have very mixed feelings about what you learn doing the Friday afternoon to Monday morning thing. Certainly you gain some insights, such as Mark's point about physical contact. At the same time, you inevitably feel like you're on "break" and you get to go back to your "real life." You're constrained by the weekend schedule and the need to get back to the office, instead of being constrained by the weather. One of my good friends claimed that the most dangerous thing you can have on a boat is a calendar. We know too many people who've been anchored in a lovely place on Saturday night, and had an awful trip home on Sunday instead of being able to wait for fair winds on Monday! Also, if you're weekending, you're likely not paying the bills, doing the wash, or dealing with "all" you possessions, so you may be getting a distorted picture.

In the final analysis, you don't move aboard to save money, you do it because you feel so drawn to the life that you can't help yourself, can't imagine any other way to live. And it's infinitely rewarding!


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

OceanCKR said:


> ....
> 
> As far as costs go, the only figures I have been able to obtain are slip fees and liveaboard fees at some of the marinas here in San Diego. It looks like it will cost me about $1,000 - $1,400 for just these fees. I have no idea what the other costs are associated with living aboard. I don't know how often I would need to haul out and the costs for that. I don't know what shore power would run, water, pump out, monthly bottom cleaning, or other regularly needed maintenance. These are many of the points I am seeking input on since I don't know what they are. I do know that we would add solar panels to cut down on electrical requirements if that would help cut costs.
> 
> ...


Including the capital costs of a decent 50-footer with the sorts of amenities your seek, even assuming amortization over say, 20 years, you will be way over $2K month. And that's not factoring depreciation as compared to appreciation for a shoreside home. Or maintenance.

It will be much cheaper to buy your electricity through the shore-power grid than through solar panels.


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## seaparrot (May 14, 2010)

ccriders said:


> Hey Seaparrot,
> I'm really wowed by your post. None of us really wants to go down the primrose path, but few of us can just cast off and go our own way, expecially when the children come along. I hope you can hold on to your realization of life and squeze every vital essence from it.


I hope so too. We'll see where a bit more planning and realism bring us in the next two years. Own current downsizing efforts have been a success. So, we'll see what comes.

For now, I just lurk and plan and save money.



OceanCKR said:


> As far as costs go, the only figures I have been able to obtain are slip fees and liveaboard fees at some of the marinas here in San Diego. It looks like it will cost me about $1,000 - $1,400 for just these fees. I have no idea what the other costs are associated with living aboard. I don't know how often I would need to haul out and the costs for that. I don't know what shore power would run, water, pump out, monthly bottom cleaning, or other regularly needed maintenance. These are many of the points I am seeking input on since I don't know what they are. I do know that we would add solar panels to cut down on electrical requirements if that would help cut costs.
> 
> I definitely have a hard time believing it would cost me more than $2,000/month all in, and if that is the case, I am much better off than paying the mortgage I have which is much more than that.


I was going to write -- a $2000 mortgage in San Diego! With that, maybe you should stay put! Then I realized that you are saying your mortgage is significantly more. Snap.

I will offer a word of caution, however. Based solely on my own quest to create and compare home ownership in the Washington, DC area and boat liveaboard costs in Annapolis, MD, I would be very careful about moving aboard a very large, new boat if you main motivation is to pay significantly less money than you are paying on land. It is very easy to pour lots of money into a boat, which is a depreciating asset. The devil's in the details, of course; maybe your situation will "price out" differently than mine. You don't have to deal with cold weather; that's a plus.

Also, I am not going to suggest you abandon the idea of 50' of boat, but you might remain open-minded about smaller vessels. From personal experience, I think it is very easy to walk into a 50' boat and think, "oh, this is exactly what I need!" This is especially so if you're feeling nervous about the life style change of moving aboard and are a relative newbie (like me)! But you might not really need these things, once you get talking to people and work different ideas over in your mind. Also, I know it seems minor, but shaving even 5' off the length of a boat makes it significantly cheaper to maintain. If you can wean yourself off of 50-52' feet to 46' or 42', you will pay a lot less money for everything. Just go see the smaller boats and give them fair consideration.

I think there's a lot of wisdom in what someone else said above -- about moving aboard being for the passion of it, not to save money. You might save money, but even living on a 50' boat is a big lifestyle change. You'll probably appreciate the surprises, pump outs, and low-pressure showers a lot more if you're "hungry" for the change. As my undergrad. advisor told me, about getting a Ph.D.: "This isn't something you do for the money. Its something you do because you can't imagine doing anything else." He was right (and I'm now a few months away from becoming a "Piled Higher and Deeper" ... 1500 spegetti dinners later...). 

[Edit:] I started a thread a while back and received some interesting feedback from people here about kids and boats: http://www.sailnet.com/forums/cruis...angement-really-works-living-aboard-kids.html . Maybe some of the comment there will be useful to you.


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## eryka (Mar 16, 2006)

Hey, SeaParrot - congrats on the upcoming degree! My wish for you: that the letters PhD in your case soon mean "Point toward Horizons Distant"


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## seaparrot (May 14, 2010)

eryka said:


> Hey, SeaParrot - congrats on the upcoming degree! My wish for you: that the letters PhD in your case soon mean "Point toward Horizons Distant"


Thanks!

Just jumped over to your blog! Interesting stuff, esp. for those of us who are trying to soak up all we can. I'll be following your entries.


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## OceanCKR (Oct 15, 2010)

Hey Mark,

I actually just finished your book, it came highly recommended. There were many useful sections in there that I got some good insights from. Our family is one of those that just gets along no matter what, most parents tell us how jealous they are of how our family. We are very close, and the type that being literally in close quarters would not be an issue. The only problems I see is that my kids are very outgoing and are use to playing outside all the time on our private street. I having a lot of trouble trying to figure out how some of this will translate to a marina environment. Perhaps instead of always riding a bike or skateboard, they will be kayaking or something else.

The main takeaway from you book that I got was to create a budget and expense worksheet, which I am trying to start now. Unfortunately I have not been able to figure out a lot of the costs for any specific marina here in San Diego. I know the slip and liveaboard fees but this about all I have figured out so far.

Thanks for responding, very cool to hear from the author of the book I just finished two days ago!



MarkN said:


> You're not crazy. Well... you are a bit. But this is the lifestyle that so many of us love and would support to the bitter end.
> 
> My advice is to make sure that everyone is on board (pun intended). No matter the size of vessel, things can feel very small aboard when everyone is not getting along. Moreover, getting along aboard means that physical contact must be okay under all conditions, since areas tend to be small and just walking past another person might involve contact. I have known more than one familiy that lost their dream because of either of these issues.
> 
> ...


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## OceanCKR (Oct 15, 2010)

Great feedback from everyone. The plan has always been for the wife and I to end up on a boat after the kids were gone. Now however though we are thinking that a more simple life aboard a boat with our kids might be better than the big house and mortgage, and yes I really am hoping that it will somehow be cheaper than the house, and fully taking into consideration the fact that boats depreciate, unlike our house. I am more concerned with the simple monthly costs. It just sure seems that a liveaboard arrangement would be cheaper than our house and let us start practicing for our eventual departure that much sooner.

I hear all of you when you talk about doing this because we want to, and for no other reason, and yes that has and always will be the primary motivation. However saving money would be a huge bonus and is definitely another part of our consideration set. We will not make the jump if all of us are not 100% committed, that includes my 5 and 8 year old. They have to vote yes or we are not doing it.

It seems that a 50 foot boat is more than what most of you recommend. I have been on smaller boats and on some 50's. Maybe I have just not seen the right layout yet on a smaller boat. I have spent so many hours looking at boats online that my eyes hurt, and it is hard to tell much from photos. Unfortunately I am not fining a lot of boats to physically look at here in San Diego that fit the criteria.

Again, thank you everyone for your feedback, it is super helpful to hear what you all have to say about this!


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

Ocean,

I should add that with 4 kids and their many cousins, a 50 foot boat makes more sense for us. We had our friends with a family of 5 kids and 2 adults visit and we managed to find a place for everyone (if you count floor space). That's 11 people.

I was actually shopping for a 42-44 foot boat when we came across our boat. There seems to be a dramatic difference each time you go up a few feet, so look for that sweet spot -- that balance between cost and living space. A longer boat usually means a wider and higher cabin as well, so the volume increases as a factor of x^3. In other words, 10% more length is 33% more volume (1.10 x 1.10 x 1.10 = 1.33 more). 26% more length is a whopping 2 times the volume. To me this is very evident at about 36 feet where suddenly there's a double bed under where the cockpit seats are located (e.g. Catalina 36). Smaller boats have a single bed there. Even smaller boats have no bed there, just a wall in the back of the cabin (but with storage under the cockpit seat at least). Compared to the Catalina 36, the Beneteau 423 is 16% longer and (by my simple x^3 suggestion) a huge 58% increase in volume. The double bed under the where the cockpit seat was? In the Beneteau 423 that is now a complete cabin.

That's my long-winded way of saying to look carefully at each increment of length to see what you are getting and when it becomes more than enough for your family.

Also, you'd be surprised at how much storage space there is on a boat. We spend the entire summer on our boat (less for me as I work) and nearly all the storage spots are nearly empty. Not 3/4 full or 1/2 full -- nearly empty.

Granted, that's not really living aboard, so take my input with a huge grain of salt maybe.

...

If you OR your wife are learning to sail, then get the smallest boat you can stand. Smaller boats provide a faster action-reaction response that make learning a lot easier and a lot more fun. 

I think if money is an issue, then get the smallest boat you can stand. At 50 feet, we avoid all costs that charge by the foot. We go all summer without docking the boat, except for short visits to a fuel dock for fuel and water. (I buy fuel to get the water.) Less length really means less cost. And "less is more" as my uncle says -- a smaller boat may mean an earlier retirement.

Lastly, when looking for a boat on yachtworld.com or elsewhere, these search terms can have surprising results that may give a nice boost to the balance between cost and living space. Here they are in no particular order. Search for them one at a time: repo, repossessed, reposessed, repossesed, reposesed, bank, foreclosed, foreclosure, foreclose, must and estate.

I didn't not write a book on this topic, so please take this as advice from an amateur.

Regards,
Brad


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## poopdeckpappy (Jul 25, 2006)

Hey Ocean, we're LA's at the kona side of the kona kai marina here in the shelter island basin, we had a 37' boat in a 50' slip on the outside of I dock, the cost including SP and LA fees was 1600.00. ( city water is n/c ) A haul out ( pluck & splash ) should be just under 600.00 for a 50'er @ Shelter Island BY

Also, I have a good buddy here at the marina who works for Yachtfinders/Windseekers, he's a oldtimer here ( 30 yrs here at the marina ), and knows his boats and where to find them, he's been known to head to the PNW in search of the right boat.

When the time comes, PM me and I'll send you his contact info.


PS; he's also a Capt and would be available for deliveries and instructions if needed


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

poopdeckpappy said:


> Hey Ocean, we're LA's at the kona side of the kona kai marina here in the shelter island basin, we had a 37' boat in a 50' slip on the outside of I dock, the cost including SP and LA fees was 1600.00...


PDP, is that $1600 a year!? Wow. Slips are cheap out your way.


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## ilikerust (Apr 19, 2010)

JohnRPollard said:


> PDP, is that $1600 a year!? Wow. Slips are cheap out your way.


You can get slips just about that cheaply on the Chesapeake - but you do have to search, and you'll be in a smaller marina without much in the way of services or amenities. But it might work for you.

We're in a very small marina all by itself in a little creek about a 15-minute ride from Deltaville. It's a very nice, friendly, low-key place. Yesterday we had the whole place to ourselves - there was nobody else there.

We paid $1620 for a 30-foot boat in about a 40-foot slip for a full 12 months, paid in advance. It includes non-metered electric and water at the slip, and a small, but clean, clubhouse, which has a full kitchen and a big ice machine - the ice is free, too, which is nice, so you can fill up your icebox or cooler before a trip. It also has men's and women's bathrooms and showers that are actually pretty neat and clean. Plus a nice grass lawn leading down to the docks, and a very nice family barbeque/picnic area.

But they have no boat ramp or haulout facilities and no mechanic or ship's store.

The best part is my slip is probably the best slip on whole damn Chesapeake Bay. It's a pull-through and stupidly easy to pull in and out of. I have a nice, wide dock running the full length of the slip, and there are no boats on either side of me.

Here are a couple shots showing her in the slip:



















But yes, the there's no doubt the typical slip fee at other marinas are much higher. I feel pretty lucky to have found this one.


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

Bene505 said:


> ...Lastly, when looking for a boat on yachtworld.com or elsewhere, these search terms can have surprising results that may give a nice boost to the balance between cost and living space. Here they are in no particular order. Search for them one at a time: repo, repossessed, reposessed, repossesed, reposesed, bank, foreclosed, foreclosure, foreclose, must and estate.


Take a look at the one, for instance.

1987 MORGAN 41 Out Island For Sale In Sea Bright, New Jersey - BoatTrader.com

Remember that's the asking price, not the final price.

Got that hit from these guys: Lab Marine [Edit: They repossess boats.]

Regards,
Brad


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## poopdeckpappy (Jul 25, 2006)

JohnRPollard said:


> PDP, is that $1600 a year!? Wow. Slips are cheap out your way.


John, thats 1600.00 a month not a year


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

poopdeckpappy said:


> John, thats 1600.00 a month not a year


OUCH...


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

poopdeckpappy said:


> John, thats 1600.00 a month not a year


Thanks PDP. I figured as much, but didn't want to jump to conclusions.

Ilikerust,

That's a good deal you've got there, in some great cruising grounds (nice photos of a very handsome boat, too!) But your boat is fairly far down in the much less populated section of Chesapeake Bay. Up here close to Annapolis, the rates are much higher (unless you've got a deal with a private slip).

Likewise, my understanding is that on the West Coast, moorage is pretty steep in the populated areas like SD, SF, LA, etc. PDP seems to confirm that.

The O.P. is hoping to keep his costs in the $2K/month range. Hard to see that happening when you add in the capital costs of a 50 footer, not to mention upkeep, refit, etc. My only point in all this is to make sure the O.P. crunches his numbers carefully, since he's hoping to cut costs as part of the bargain.


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## OceanCKR (Oct 15, 2010)

Okay now I gotta ask what O.P. stand for as what I am being referred to as? Oddly enough I worked for Op the apparel company until a few years ago.

$2k/mo is a target estimate, I know there will be other costs that will arise unexpectedly, or currently unknown to me at this stage of planning. Hence why I am seeking commentary from those who may be in a very similar situation currently in a SD marina.

I looked at a Catalina 45 center cockpit this weekend, and I just can't see a family of four managing that small of a space, albeit I know that there are those that do and have no problems. The Beneteau Oceanis 510 owners version with a 3 cabin layout seems to be the perfect fit. I can pick up one of those less than 10 years old for probably $180K or less, with little or no upgrades or maintenance needed. If I can afford the bigger boat I may pursue it that way if the additional costs outside of slip fees and liveaboard fees are not over $2K/mo.

PDP gave me some real numbers that make sense and are close to this budget, so there may be hope. Even if was under $3K all in monthly that would provide a substantial savings to what my house costs me now, and being on the boat would allow me to spend my weekends learning and training to eventually head south and then west following in many of the same paths that you fortunate ones on here may have already done.



JohnRPollard said:


> Thanks PDP. I figured as much, but didn't want to jump to conclusions.
> 
> Ilikerust,
> 
> ...


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## poopdeckpappy (Jul 25, 2006)

OceanCKR said:


> Okay now I gotta ask what O.P. stand for


Original Poster



> The Beneteau Oceanis 510 owners version with a 3 cabin layout seems to be the perfect fit..


Talking about this today and this same bene came up in the convo, I was going to pass it on to ya..........


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## seaparrot (May 14, 2010)

OceanCKR said:


> PDP gave me some real numbers that make sense and are close to this budget, so there may be hope. Even if was under $3K all in monthly that would provide a substantial savings to what my house costs me now, and being on the boat would allow me to spend my weekends learning and training to eventually head south and then west following in many of the same paths that you fortunate ones on here may have already done.


Awesome. I hope that things continue to come together for you guys. 

SailingDog: My husband was reading this thread and was inspired to look up information the Gemini 105mc. It looks an interesting boat for purposes, so we have another option to research now! Thanks for mentioning this company.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

OceanCKR said:


> Okay now I gotta ask what O.P. stand for as what I am being referred to as? Oddly enough I worked for Op the apparel company until a few years ago.
> 
> $2k/mo is a target estimate, I know there will be other costs that will arise unexpectedly, or currently unknown to me at this stage of planning. Hence why I am seeking commentary from those who may be in a very similar situation currently in a SD marina.
> 
> ...


Yes, as PDP noted, "OP" is just a shorthand for "Original Poster", i.e. the individual who started the thread and asked the question in the first place. Sorry about that -- we get used to a lot of these abbreviations and forget that some new folks may not be familiar with them.

Ocean Pacific made some nice board shorts, back in the day.

Again, my comments are not intended to dissuade you from pursuing the live aboard lifestyle. I'm just trying to make sure you go in with eyes wide open.

Your original post was somewhat nebulous and did not mention that this experience was intended as practice for an eventual cruise/circumnavigation. Over the course of many pages, we've learned more about your plans and got clarification about your budget, so some of the early comments made by myself and others are a bit out of context now.

My final observation concerns your comment that "...being on the boat would allow me to spend my weekends learning and training to eventually head south and then west..." This is one issue that you hear full-time live-aboards routinely comment about. Because they are spread out in the boat for daily living, it can take a lot of work and prep to put the boat into sailing trim. Consequently, they do not leave the dock very often -- at least not until they are pulling the plug and shoving off for a long stretch.

Take my advice for what it's worth -- my personal experience is not as a live-aboard. But I can tell you that from our weekend and vacation sailing with a family, there is a fair bit of prep every time we get underway -- stowing, securing, etc. And we have minimal personal effects on board because we are not live-abaords. So keep in mind, if one of your goals is to get a lot of sailing practice for the future cruise, you may not be doing much of it in the same boat in which you and a family are living aboard at the dock. But I hope you prove me wrong.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

If you have any questions, I've spent quite a bit of time on the Geminis, and they're actually made by the same company that made my boat, so fire away.

If you're really interested in finding out a lot more about the boats, I'd recommend you join the Yahoo Gemini Catamaran group.



seaparrot said:


> Awesome. I hope that things continue to come together for you guys.
> 
> SailingDog: My husband was reading this thread and was inspired to look up information the Gemini 105mc. It looks an interesting boat for purposes, so we have another option to research now! Thanks for mentioning this company.


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## OceanCKR (Oct 15, 2010)

John,

Thank you so much for all your commentary, yes I know I did not divulge my entire plan in the original post, I wanted to just get a conversation started and see what I needed to talk about first.

I have spent time on sailboats bluewater cruising, mainly for surf trips in South American and Tahiti, so I kind of have a feeling of how a boat is set up while underway. I realize that having my kids toys and crap all over while dockside may be a issue if we untie and head to Catalina for the weekend, I will just have to figure out a plan for how to manage that. I know I have a lot to learn in the process of figuring out how to do this, but hearing from you and the others gives me a much better idea of what's potentially ahead of me.

The first items I have to get planned are the boat type/size and the basic liveaboard marina fees, which I think I am getting a good idea of now thanks to PDP's notes to me.

I can't stop reading this forum, so much good information. I hope to become a part of the community!



JohnRPollard said:


> Yes, as PDP noted, "OP" is just a shorthand for "Original Poster", i.e. the individual who started the thread and asked the question in the first place. Sorry about that -- we get used to a lot of these abbreviations and forget that some new folks may not be familiar with them.
> 
> Ocean Pacific made some nice board shorts, back in the day.
> 
> ...


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## remetau (Jan 27, 2009)

OceanCKR said:


> I can't stop reading this forum, so much good information. I hope to become a part of the community!


Your are here. You are a part of the community.


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## DeltaZulu (Oct 20, 2010)

Not crazy. Lots of challenges living aboard, most of them are fun to overcome. Lets talk laundry. IF you are used to doing your laundry at a laundrymat, then no prob. Most marinas with liveaboards have them. With a 50 foot boat you may have a few options. Some folks put a stackable w/d unit in a spare berth, but with two kids this may not be possible. Those combo units that have the washer and dryer all in one small machine will probably not have the capacity for a family of four. I once saw a CT 54 with two lovely teak boxes in the salon. They looked like oversized end tables. There was a washer in one and a dryer in the other. 
But yea, go ahead and make the move aboard. Better to say you tried it than to wonder the rest of your life what you missed.


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## OceanCKR (Oct 15, 2010)

That is the absolute entire rationale for why we are considering this move, could not have said it any better.

Better to say you tried it than to wonder the rest of your life what you missed.[/QUOTE]


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## QuickMick (Oct 15, 2009)

might wanna look at these, they are pretty spacious...

Cheoy Lee sailboats for sale by owner.


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## OceanCKR (Oct 15, 2010)

I see lot's of these listed, mostly older boats. I know nothing about them, are they good all around boats? There are lots for sale, don't know if that is a good thing or bad thing?



QuickMick said:


> might wanna look at these, they are pretty spacious...
> 
> Cheoy Lee sailboats for sale by owner.


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## rmeador (Jan 16, 2010)

OceanCKR said:


> I see lot's of these listed, mostly older boats. I know nothing about them, are they good all around boats? There are lots for sale, don't know if that is a good thing or bad thing?


When I was looking, I thought the Pedrick-designed Cheoy Lee 41 was one of the most beautiful boats I'd ever seen. The interior woodwork is second to none (and all solid teak, AFAIK). I liked the galley and salon arrangement a lot. It has a large head with full size stall shower, which is an oddity in boats of that period. And, I think most people would consider them very good, fast sailers suitable for bluewater use.

There were two reasons I didn't buy it... one was teak decks screwed into the cored fiberglass... massive leak problems. Secondly, I couldn't get insurance for a boat that large given my lack of experience 

I've heard good things about other Cheoy Lees from that period as well, especially the Perry-designed ones.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

The smaller Cheoy Lees aren't very well regarded IMHO. The larger ones have some serious quality issues when it comes to construction and materials. The decks are usually teak and screwed down to a cored fiberglass deck beneath, leaving lots of potential leaks into the underlying core. IIRC, many of their boats were built with stainless steel running gear underwater, which generally does not do well, especially since some of the chinese sourced stainless was less than decent quality to begin with. Bronze underwater running gear is far preferable, as it is far less susceptible to crevice corrosion and such. 

Personally, I think that there are far better built boats available than the Cheoy Lees.


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## OceanCKR (Oct 15, 2010)

Yep... no teak decks for me, love the look, but would not want to deal with the maintenance and upkeep of that.



sailingdog said:


> The smaller Cheoy Lees aren't very well regarded IMHO. The larger ones have some serious quality issues when it comes to construction and materials. The decks are usually teak and screwed down to a cored fiberglass deck beneath, leaving lots of potential leaks into the underlying core. IIRC, many of their boats were built with stainless steel running gear underwater, which generally does not do well, especially since some of the chinese sourced stainless was less than decent quality to begin with. Bronze underwater running gear is far preferable, as it is far less susceptible to crevice corrosion and such.
> 
> Personally, I think that there are far better built boats available than the Cheoy Lees.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

This is just my opinion and several have argued with it, so take it for what its worth. We "live aboard" 3 to 4 days per week and then a few straight weeks over the course of the year. Love it and hope to live aboard for 6 straight months out of each year in the future. However, the lifestyle does not fit well with having to keep a schedule like going to the office!! Crisis on boats happen much more often than in a home, given the harsh environment. Mr. Murphy seems to insure these only happen when you have to leave the boat to keep a schedule. I had a shore power plug failure and a diesel leak in the last 6 months and both were identified just at the the time I needed to go. I couldn't let all the food in the fridge rot, or certainly not take the chance that the bilge would start pumping diesel into the marina.

Putting a suit and tie on to go to work is also a real sailing lifestyle buzz kill.

I'm not trying to talk you out of it at all. I'm just pointing out that the lifestyle is more than assessing your ability to live on a sailboat, its your ability to live with a sailboat.
--


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## CaptainForce (Jan 1, 2006)

There are two comments I'd like to add about living aboard here that are well within the control of those that are living aboard. First, the concern about difficulties with maintenance of the vessel while living aboard and dealing with the potential problems of matching the daily task of commuting to work with managing the boat. Certainly, those that are living aboard will be able to keep closely aware of the boat needs and soon manage a balance in maintenance needs if they are begining with a sound vessel. Second, The ability to get underway quickly while living aboard is a matter of choice. If you decide to have your live aboard space grow across your deck and dock and have not truely adapted to living aboard this can be a problem. Over the 39 years we have lived aboard and including the years that we raised our two children aboard from infants to adults, we always kept the ability to get underway within fifteen minutes. No dock boxes, no excess debris, no potted plants, no change in the manner of our living away from the dock or at the dock except for the shore power cord. Sure, many liveaboards don't live on their vessels in this manner, but it is not a characteristic of living aboard,- just a matter of choice. Take care and joy, Aythya crew


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## imagine2frolic (Aug 7, 2008)

bljones said:


> Q: you know what the difference is between a catamaran and a pontoon boat?
> A: about $100k, three trucker hats, 6 fishing poles and 5 cases of PBR.


*OH THE AGONY *to read this:laugher :laugher . .....i2f

In 20k miles cruising the best kids were on boats. Responsible, and manners to be proud of. Why not a captained charter someplace like the BVI for 10 days. After 10 days you will know if it is a good plan, or not.........*i2f*


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## NCC320 (Dec 23, 2008)

Are live aboard slips available in San Diego? There are live aboard slips, but are there vacancies? I'm told that most of the marinas limit live aboards to about 10% of the marina. I checked into non liveaboard slips in Monterey area for a smaller boat and I was told that just for a slip in some sizes, there was a 2-5 year waiting period in some marinas. A 50' ft liveaboard slip might be hard to come by in a nice marina. CA sailers might have more insight into this issue.

Not to trash the dream, but I think the OP is totally missing the cost issue. There's lots more to it than slip fees.


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## eryka (Mar 16, 2006)

Minnewaska said:


> This is just my opinion and several have argued with it, so take it for what its worth. We "live aboard" 3 to 4 days per week and then a few straight weeks over the course of the year. Love it and hope to live aboard for 6 straight months out of each year in the future. However, the lifestyle does not fit well with having to keep a schedule like going to the office!! Crisis on boats happen much more often than in a home, given the harsh environment. Mr. Murphy seems to insure these only happen when you have to leave the boat to keep a schedule. I had a shore power plug failure and a diesel leak in the last 6 months and both were identified just at the the time I needed to go. I couldn't let all the food in the fridge rot, or certainly not take the chance that the bilge would start pumping diesel into the marina.
> 
> Putting a suit and tie on to go to work is also a real sailing lifestyle buzz kill.
> 
> ...


I think that extrapolating from the extended weekending you are currently doing, to truly full time living aboard gives you a false picture. Actually, I think some of these problems would be LESS problematic if you spent full time on the boat. Capt Force makes some good points about being there to spot problems as they happen daily, rather than all at once. But your refrigerator example - what would you do if your land fridge failed? Right. You'd call in to the office that you were waiting for a repair person. Why not the same thing from the boat? If you lived on the boat full-time and you had a can't-miss-it meeting that morning, put a block of ice in the box and wait until evening. If you're in weekending mode though, that option wasn't available to you if the problem happened on a Sunday night and you wouldn't be back to the boat until Friday.

I'll admit that I've never put on a suit and tie to go to the office.  However, living aboard 365/24/7, and spending almost 7 years as a Washington bureaucrat, I've done my share of walking down the dock in hose and heels and kept jewelry in a fishing tackle box. My dock-neighbor and carpool-mate even managed the liveaboard-professional career thing with judge's robes. Getting dressed to go to the office on Monday morning is a "buzz-kill" whether you live on land or on water. My experience is that going home to a boat at the end of the workday is the haven at the end of a crappy commute. Worth the tradeoff for me!


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## OceanCKR (Oct 15, 2010)

Thanks Minnewaska, any and all points of view are what I am looking for in these early stages of consideration and due diligence. I do have a office job, fortunately I usually wear jeans and T's unless I have to go to a client's office. There will be times where I need to dress up, and finding a boat with some storage for those kinds of clothes is needed.

For me, having to do the daily grind departing from a marina and my boat every day is seeming to be much more in line with my lifestyle and dreams. As apposed to departing each morning from a huge house in a neighborhood I don't like, and knowing I am not living a life that represents who I am and what makes me tick.

I thought having the nice big new house and the fancy neighborhood was the right thing to do for the kids, and then I read this book called "Educating Falcon" and that reaffirmed everything that I had pondered for years, and that is I nor my family needs all this stuff. Keeping up with the Jones's is find for some people, and many like that lifestyle. Here in San Diego it is the norm where I live. the kids here are snotty little brats who think everyone owns a luxury car, has a 65" flat screen, huge house, and a vide gaming system in every room. Not me, and not how I want my kids growing up.

Falcon, and all the other kids who have grown up in the cruising and liveaboard lifestyle are now my inspiration, and are guiding my aspirations.

If it is meant to be, then it is meant to be and I will make it work while enjoying every minute of the good and bad.

Cheers!



Minnewaska said:


> This is just my opinion and several have argued with it, so take it for what its worth. We "live aboard" 3 to 4 days per week and then a few straight weeks over the course of the year. Love it and hope to live aboard for 6 straight months out of each year in the future. However, the lifestyle does not fit well with having to keep a schedule like going to the office!! Crisis on boats happen much more often than in a home, given the harsh environment. Mr. Murphy seems to insure these only happen when you have to leave the boat to keep a schedule. I had a shore power plug failure and a diesel leak in the last 6 months and both were identified just at the the time I needed to go. I couldn't let all the food in the fridge rot, or certainly not take the chance that the bilge would start pumping diesel into the marina.
> 
> Putting a suit and tie on to go to work is also a real sailing lifestyle buzz kill.
> 
> ...


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## OceanCKR (Oct 15, 2010)

I am not missing the cost issue, in fact that is the genesis of my original post. I am trying to learn and find out what the costs really are, because I cannot afford to make a mistake. To buy my first house, I spent the money and took the time to earn my Real Estate license just because I wanted to know everything about it, and to not get ripped off. I don't get into anything without knowing precisely what I am in for, as best as I can.

I have had a hard time finding a liveaboard slip for a 50', and that may be what stalls this venture. I know there are many items to budget for, and ones that will just pop up and require time and money without notice. Again, that is the whole reason I joined this forum, to seek advice, opinions, and insights from those of you who are lucky enough to already be in this position.

I will have completed sailing classes, diesel mechanic classes, etc. all before I move aboard. Yesterday I spent the entire day on a Santana 20' race boat with a championship captain. Why... because I want to know not just basic sailing, but I want to know the acute details of sail trimming and how to make a boat achieve top speed, among other skills learned from a racers point of view. It was a lot of fun, a lot of work, and learned a ton. I will continue to do this both with racers and with general sailing people. I have this advantage here in San Diego, it is a great city to get into sailing and learn from the experts.

At the end of the day, if it costs just as much as my house to liveaboard, then maybe I will wait until the kids are out of school... and maybe not!



NCC320 said:


> Are live aboard slips available in San Diego? There are live aboard slips, but are there vacancies? I'm told that most of the marinas limit live aboards to about 10% of the marina. I checked into non liveaboard slips in Monterey area for a smaller boat and I was told that just for a slip in some sizes, there was a 2-5 year waiting period in some marinas. A 50' ft liveaboard slip might be hard to come by in a nice marina. CA sailers might have more insight into this issue.
> 
> Not to trash the dream, but I think the OP is totally missing the cost issue. There's lots more to it than slip fees.


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## rmeador (Jan 16, 2010)

OceanCKR, my apologies if you said this and I forgot while reading, but have you owned a sailboat at all, or owned one near the size you're looking for (which appears to be 50')? If not, you will have a very hard time finding insurance. The insurance companies I talked to only count ownership years, not years of experience, towards what size boat they'll let you have. For me, they would only let me go up to 38'. All the companies I talked to also said that a year of owning a boat of X size, they'll permit you to own one approximately X + 7' long. Check into insurance (and financing) before you go to far.


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## OceanCKR (Oct 15, 2010)

Great info, no I have not owned a boat before. I will look up insurance companies and inquire. If you ahve any recommendations please advise? I wonder if the marinas require it as a liveaboard?

How are you supposed to get insurance for a boat if you have never owned a boat before? Seems odd to me.



rmeador said:


> OceanCKR, my apologies if you said this and I forgot while reading, but have you owned a sailboat at all, or owned one near the size you're looking for (which appears to be 50')? If not, you will have a very hard time finding insurance. The insurance companies I talked to only count ownership years, not years of experience, towards what size boat they'll let you have. For me, they would only let me go up to 38'. All the companies I talked to also said that a year of owning a boat of X size, they'll permit you to own one approximately X + 7' long. Check into insurance (and financing) before you go to far.


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## rmeador (Jan 16, 2010)

Well, it seems most insurance companies will not insure liveaboards, and a bunch more won't insure in my state (no surprise, MA regulates them to death), so from the start I had few options. It was basically between BoatUS and IMIS. IMIS is a broker for a bunch of different insurance companies, and they were able to track down a policy that met my needs. IMIS itself seems well-regarded, but my underwriter, Windsor-Mount Joy, is something of a no-name. It was less than 1/3 the cost of BoatUS, so I went with it.

As for the seeming catch-22 of ownership, it isn't really a catch-22. They'll let someone with zero experience buy a boat up to around 35'. I haggled a little and got BoatUS to go up to 38'. IMIS/Windsor-Mount Joy apparently thought 37' (the boat I bought) wasn't too long, since they never remarked about it.


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## QuickMick (Oct 15, 2009)

progressive will insure a boat sight unseen (no survey), but they will not insure a livaboard... but how they could tell (or if they would inquire if you made i claim) i dont know.

one other thing (and you in a lot of cases buy a rider) is that some ins co's have a wee bit of fine print stating that the total coverage extends to the boat, and devices 'permanently mounted' to the boat. soooo, your chart plotter is covered, but not your watch/sextent/computer/binocs/anything you can carry on and off etc etc etc, id make sure you have that rider, or a policy that has 'inclusive' coverage as it could really affect the amount of a paid claim...


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

OceanCKR said:


> Great info, no I have not owned a boat before. I will look up insurance companies and inquire. If you ahve any recommendations please advise? I wonder if the marinas require it as a liveaboard?
> 
> How are you supposed to get insurance for a boat if you have never owned a boat before? Seems odd to me.


Most marinas require that you have liability insurance before they'll let you have a slip or mooring. This is probably even more the case if you're a liveaboard.


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## souljour2000 (Jul 8, 2008)

Try a 42-footer or a cheap trawler...there are alot of those out there both sailboats and trawlers for well under 60,000..I know..I live in Florida and am addicted to watching craigslist almost every day...I see 'em in St. Pete...in Ft Myers...in Tampa and sarasota all the time..but Florida is the cheapest boat market in the USA...I'm sure Socal is a bit higher but I am sure you could find a good boat for less than 50-60 grand that will fit your size family..good luck and go for it..We lived on a 26 foot houseboat for a year and a half with two kids under 4 years old...it was cheap and sure beat the alternatives at the time...a nice municipal marina helps..Florida was a good place to do the family boat thing...I'm sure California could be nice too if that's where you need to be...


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

USAA homeowner insurance covers up to 37 feet.

Regards,
Brad


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## OceanCKR (Oct 15, 2010)

So if I am hearing all of you right... I could literally be stopped cold with this venture by the insurance requirements? This is definitely the kind of insights I was hoping to gain with the O.P., however I will be shocked and really sad if all of a sudden I can't do this because of not being able to get insurance on a 50'.

Does that mean the majority of LA's on big boats have had to work their way up to that size by years of ownership on a smaller boat?


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## RedtheBear (Sep 14, 2010)

GO for it. I have had the oppertunity to live in many places all over the world and thanks to that I have and hope that I have manage to give my children a wider and more open view of the world and true values in life. Life aboard a passage vessel will teach them life lessons and give them the oppertunity to experence life as it really is and not the Hollywood vision as seen on T.V. Truth, seen through their own eyes; not the edited camera view, Smells, Sounds, Taste, these things no camera can ever show, will forever imprint themselves in their minds. 
I can think of no greater gift a man can give his childern that a personal view of the world.

"it's the trip, not the destination"


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## fstued1 (Jun 6, 2008)

I say go for it especially in San Diego. You will grow closer and and have a bunch of fun doing. I met a girl in SD who grew up on a big ketch on the mooring in SD and she seemed quite well adjusted. 
Have fun and go sailing


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## poopdeckpappy (Jul 25, 2006)

OceanCKR said:


> Does that mean the majority of LA's on big boats have had to work their way up to that size by years of ownership on a smaller boat?


No, my father in law's first boat was a 45 footer no prior sailing experience, The couple a few slips down has a new 50 foot 3 state room Bene also a first boat. ( but, get a good handle on this )

Also, allow a annual personal property tax of around 1% of the current assessed ( not market ) value


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## imagine2frolic (Aug 7, 2008)

The insurance won't be a problem. You will find reasonable rates, and unreasonable rates. While in Florida we were givenquotes from $4k to $7.5k for the same boat in the same location, cold molded 46ft. cat. I called the broker of my boat in Ca.. He told me if I was in Ca. it would be $1k. Shop around........*i2f*


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## MarioG (Sep 6, 2009)

We'll we are leaving friends and family in shock when we told them that we have gotten rid of everything thats keeping us land bound to move aboard.

to most of them ,I'm sure the thought crazy is the first thing thatt comes to mind. I've tryed to get that mind set just to see there point. but the only thing that seems to concern me is not grounding were we have yet to sailed.

I hope it works out for you for us it seems more crazy not to live aboard when you have your heart set on it.


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

Not to be a wet blanket or anything, but a couple of things I haven't seen mentioned. 

One, simply do the math. Purchase price of the boat, cost of moorage, maintenance, etc... don't underestimate this with a 50' boat. It won't be cheap. If the math works for you, sure. Just don't estimate this. And don't forget, there's a 'keeping up with the Jones's' part of the community in sailing as well. On land or at sea, it's your choice to get wrapped up in it or not. 

It's not a bad idea to have a 'plan B' for emergencies. That might mean access to some sort of land accommodation. Could mean ownership, an emergency fund to rent for a year, etc... Why? Medical emergencies. Having done the cancer dance, it would really have been hell on a boat. I was within days of closing on a live aboard 'dream' boat just as I was hospitalized and diagnosed, and lucky to have not been a liveaboard when everything went down. San Diego has much better weather than our locale which would make a difference, but one should consider these things at the very least. Speaking only for myself, I'd certainly live aboard, and may do so in the future, but would want access to at least a small land living space.

Last thought... we have a set of friends who are circumnavigating and are in year two. The simply rented their house, and use the downstairs in-law apartment for themselves when/if they need to return home as they both have aging parents in the area.... This could also work for a 'plan B' space, and you'd keep some of your equity in a house. Sure, you might downsize the current place and use some of the proceeds for your boat... it's just the math thing again. Again, not to put a damper on your idea. It's great, works for many, and might be exactly the right choice for your family.


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