# 10K$ boat --- Are Insurance and Survey REALLY mandatory?



## robertluster (Dec 9, 2008)

I'm still shopping and waiting for the chance to move aboard and head south on a budget that is basically NO budget. Standard Noob totally unrealistic stuff. BUT - that's why I'm here - to learn from the experience and wisdom of others. And many have been around for years with the same problems and already done that. I'm not interested in the IF I should, but rather the HOW. I'd love to spend more on a boat than 10K and do everything 'proper', but it isn't an option. I won't be "waiting until I can afford to do it right" - that day isn't likely to ever come and I'm already to damn old to wait any longer, anyway. The only option would be to sit through my retirement in a metal box somewhere near Mesa and just vegetate until death. No Thanks. An old, leaky, unsafe boat out on the open water seems MUCH preferable to that!

Now that my little rant for the Negative Nellie's and Naysayer's is done, the QUESTIONS: For a boat with a purchase price of about 10K, do I *REALLY* need a Survey? I've read the blogs and advice on what to look for and am not totally incompetent. No doubt someone with years of experience will find things I won't notice - but if I cover 95% myself with my own checklist/inspection, might that not be plenty good enough? Is there any cheap help available?

And, is a survey _*REALLY*_ necessary for liability insurance? I walked past an insurance salesman at a boat show who seemed to have been a used car salesmen in a previous life. It appeared that, like any typical border town, and for today only, such a deal he had for me! Is shady deals and fraud the rule or the exception?


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## chuck53 (Oct 13, 2009)

First of all, you don't have to have insurance and no, you don't have to get a survey.
That being said, if you do get insurance, and I think most sailnetters will tell you it is a good idea to have, most lenders and insurance companies will want to see a survey report before loaning money or issuing a policy.
Also, there are a number of marinas who won't rent you a slip unless you can show you have at least a basic policy.
Don't forget, if you lose a boat that doesn't have insurance, you may be out way more than the cost of the boat. Liability is the big issue. If the boat sinks, there's going to be a fuel spill and the cost of clean up is going to drain your pockets. What if someone gets hurt or you damage someone else's property? Again, liability rears its ugly head.


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## CLOSECALL (Dec 11, 2012)

If you anchor near me, I hope you have insurance.


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## Tim R. (Mar 23, 2003)

You have little to no experience, no money and you want to know if having no liability insurance is a good idea? Do you realize you are asking the same folks who will have to pay for their own repairs if you manage to run into them?

Some insurance companies will not require a survey to insure a boat of such limited value. Shop around. Get the insurance. Who cares if you skip the survey.


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## mikel1 (Oct 19, 2008)

A lot of states require insurance to register the boat, also to get a mooring/slip . . don't know about your area . . .look up sailingdogs boat shopping check list? Someone else jump in here . . .


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

Many many cruisers don't have comprehensive insurance. They tend to have oversized anchors, sail with a defensive mentality, are less likely to abandon ship and have a reserve fund for the days something goes wrong. This is pretty essential.

There is a recent saga where a couple grounded their boat, had no such fund and could not pay the locals the towing fee demanded. They finished up selling the beached boat for $3.

I am not sure about the US but in the UK basic 3rd party liability insurance is available without a survey, this gives the evidence of insurance that's required for boat licence renewals or where evidence of third party insurance is required by a yard, marina or boat sales company.



> Navigators & General is now able to offer third party only insurance from just £58.30 a year. This is an online only insurance policy for UK boat owners.
> 
> No survey requirements or costs
> £3,000,000 liability protection against passenger or third party claims
> ...


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## robertluster (Dec 9, 2008)

CLOSECALL said:


> If you anchor near me, I hope you have insurance.


Well, actually I hope I do too.  And I will try to keep my distance. Just wanting to find out what the demands/possibilities are. The minimum to get by on a practical basis is what I'm after. I have NO health insurance, and don't intend to sign anywhere. Mankind survived millions of years without insurance - But I can probably count my years left with just my fingers and toes...
​


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## robertluster (Dec 9, 2008)

TQA said:


> Many many cruisers don't have comprehensive insurance. They tend to have oversized anchors, sail with a defensive mentality, are less likely to abandon ship and have a reserve fund for the days something goes wrong. This is pretty essential.


This kinda sounds like my attitude/plan. Insurance has it's place, but is often for people who don't want to be responsible for themselves.


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## robertluster (Dec 9, 2008)

mikel1 said:


> A lot of states require insurance to register the boat, also to get a mooring/slip . . don't know about your area . . .look up sailingdogs boat shopping check list? Someone else jump in here . . .


I don't have "an area", and don't intend to get one. I often get bored after a week in one spot, anyway. My "area" will be somewhere it doesn't get below 70 degrees. From now on - leaks, maybe. Frozen Pipes NOT:laugher...


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## BarryL (Aug 21, 2003)

Hey,

You don't need a survey. You do need liability insurance. The insurance may not require a survey.

I have Allstate and they have not asked for a survey. Allstate insured my Newport 28 (liability only from 2004-2007), O'day 35 (liability and comprehensive from 2006 - now) and C&C 110 (full coverage from 2013 - now).

The cheaper the boat and the simpler the boat the less need for a survey. I didn't get a survey on my first boat, a Catalina 22. The boat came with an outboard engine that started and ran fine. The interior was real simple - no AC electrical system, no plumbing, no galley, etc. I checked the boat thoroughly, it seemed fine, the owners were a nice older couple and the boat was cheap. So I bought it and happily sailed it for a year and a half.

Good luck,
Barry


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## azguy (Jul 17, 2012)

If you ever hope to spend a night in a marina, and there will come a time you need to, you'll need $300k in liability, so get it now.

About the survey, only the craziest person alive would buy a boat without hauling it of the water to see what the bottom looks like.... so you may as well get a survey while you're at it IMHO.


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## chuck53 (Oct 13, 2009)

robertluster said:


> The minimum to get by on a practical basis is what I'm after. I have NO health insurance, and don't intend to sign anywhere.
> ​


Sounds like you are proud of that. I hope you never fall and break a limb, need an emergency appendectomy or hundreds of other issues/ailments that will need medical attention....because you will get screwed. The costs of routine medical procedures easily run into 4 and 5 digits.


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## delite (Nov 2, 2009)

robertluster said:


> This kinda sounds like my attitude/plan. Insurance has it's place, but is often for people who don't want to be responsible for themselves.


In my experience the ones who dont have insurance are the ones with limited to no ability to be responsible for themselves and their actions when the crap hits the fan.


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## wfish11 (Mar 27, 2012)

Liability insurance is relatively cheap, mine from Boat US is only $250 per year. My boats a 1974 so they did require a survey. Where you get murdered is on the comprehensive which you don't need on a $10K boat. Buy an $8K boat and use the 2K to register it, buy insurance and a place to put the boat. The days of just anchoring for free anywhere are long gone, even where it's legal to do so the water cops will make your life unbearable.


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## robertluster (Dec 9, 2008)

chuck53 said:


> Sounds like you are proud of that. I hope you never fall and break a limb, need an emergency appendectomy or hundreds of other issues/ailments that will need medical attention....because you will get screwed. The costs of routine medical procedures easily run into 4 and 5 digits.


Well, Thanks just loads for the heads up, but corrupt lawyers, insurance companies, and a particular nameless hospital are the reason my IRA and 401K and ex wife all went "poof". I'm thankful for the ex-navy surgeon that worked on me - but all the rest should be lined up against a wall somewhere... If anyone were to EVER try to collect 5 or 6 digits from me again, they will just have to suck hind teat - and it's dry... :hothead


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## CLOSECALL (Dec 11, 2012)

I am not suggesting that the op not get insurance. I do find it odd that no marina that I have overnighted at on the Chesapeake has ever asked me if I was insured. I don't stay at marinas often but I'm always surprised that I'm not asked to show proof of insurance.


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

As others have said, while it may not be an absolute requirement, you do need liability insurance. I can understand being callous about your health insurance (though I hope you don't expect to get "free" ER care) since it's your life on the line, or comprehensive insurance since that covers your own mistakes on your boat. But with a boat comes the possibility that you'll damage not only your own boat, but also OPP (other people's property), including their lives, and in some cases their livelihood. To me, failing to carry liability insurance is like flipping off every other boat that you pass. 

Hopefully you'll carry liability, at a minimum. But there are also times where comprehensive can be advantageous. When an electrical storm fries the wiring and all of your electronics, will you have the funds to make the repairs, and in the timeframe you need them? When a piece of debris is sucked into your engine and makes it past your strainer, will you have the funds to make those repairs? Or if your prop gets fouled and your engine and transmission are incapacitated, will you have the funds to fix them? These kinds of no-warning, high expense things happen. Maybe you have a nice cash reserve, in which case you're good. But for most of us, quickly coming up with $4,000-$10,000 (or more) isn't all that easy.

Do you need a survey? In a word, no (unless the insurance company requires one). But is one advantageous? Yes. We didn't survey our Catalina 25 when we bought her (we paid $1000 for her). Then I read about rigging failure, swing keel failures, etc., and realized that the peace of mind that would come with having an inspection would make the $300-$500 worthwhile.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

Not sure where you are located but in Seattle/Everett I used Safeco insurance... they did not require a survey based on the cost of the sailboat. I have the following for insurance:

$300,000 liability (needed by the Everett Marina)
$1 mil environmental (fuel spill clean up)
$15,000 medical per passenger liability (I think this is small in my book)
$7500 hull recovery/replacement if it sinks or gets totalled
$1500 outboard motor coverage for theft
I don't have the policy opened at this time but I know there was other coverage and riders... 

I pay $345 a year for this coverage and well worth it... The boat had a survey back in 1990 and I sent that survey in even though it was outdated, they gave me the coverage...

My best advice to you is pay the survey and get the insurance... peace of mind goes a long way....


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## jwing (Jun 20, 2013)

The boat you buy for $10,000 will probably be needing lots of deferred maintenance tasks taken care of - do it now safely and conveniently or do it later expensivley and maybe hazardously. I think you should forgo paying a surveyor and learn to inspect boats yourself. There are at least a couple of good books that will guide you through the inspection process. This will be your first step in learning how to do all those deferred maintenance tasks yourself. If you find inspecting boats to be too tedious, you should probably stay in the metal box in Mesa. So YES to your first premise of doing your own survey.

Liability insurance? Absolutely. The reasons have been well-explained by previous posters. Even though it's not part of your dream, much of your anchor time is likely to be near other people, so be responsible for the damage you may cause them. Clearly you don't have the money to self-insure and liability insurance is not very expensive. So YES to liability insurance. But your question was, "Is a survey necessary for liabiltiy insurance?" My experience says the answer to that question is NO, you do not need a survey to get liability insurance. It may depend on your engine, though. I have a fairly new outboard engine and did not need a survey to get liability coverage.


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## SailingJackson (Jan 1, 2011)

robertluster said:


> ...... the QUESTIONS: For a boat with a purchase price of about 10K, do I *REALLY* need a Survey? I've read the blogs and advice on what to look for and am not totally incompetent. No doubt someone with years of experience will find things I won't notice - but if I cover 95% myself with my own checklist/inspection, might that not be plenty good enough? Is there any cheap help available?


Relative to a newer more expensive boat, a $10K boat naturally has increased risks of something going seriously wrong with rigging or hull that could end up in disabling or sinking the boat. Those are risks to your life and savings. If it sinks or ends up on shore you will be forced to pay very high costs of removal. Unless you're outside of US jurisdiction, you cannot walk (or swim) away from a mess of broken fiberglass and leaking diesel fuel. If you go in open waters or offshore you may be endangering your life. With your budget you're unlikely to carry a life raft and related safety equipment.

Before considering going without a survey, I'd suggest trying to find a surveyor who can work with you and understand your needs. To be at all realistic you must assume that a few things on your $10K boat need to get fixed or replaced. A good surveyor can be well worth the the $300 or $500 fee by guiding you toward which things really need replacement, how to repair/replace cheaply, and which things only look ugly but do not endanger your boat.

GTJ


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## robertluster (Dec 9, 2008)

jwing said:


> The boat you buy for $10,000 will probably be needing lots of deferred maintenance tasks taken care of - do it now safely and conveniently or do it later expensivley and maybe hazardously. I think you should forgo paying a surveyor and learn to inspect boats yourself. There are at least a couple of good books that will guide you through the inspection process. This will be your first step in learning how to do all those deferred maintenance tasks yourself. If you find inspecting boats to be too tedious, you should probably stay in the metal box in Mesa. So YES to your first premise of doing your own survey.
> 
> Liability insurance? Absolutely. The reasons have been well-explained by previous posters. Even though it's not part of your dream, much of your anchor time is likely to be near other people, so be responsible for the damage you may cause them. Clearly you don't have the money to self-insure and liability insurance is not very expensive. So YES to liability insurance. But your question was, "Is a survey necessary for liabiltiy insurance?" My experience says the answer to that question is NO, you do not need a survey to get liability insurance. It may depend on your engine, though. I have a fairly new outboard engine and did not need a survey to get liability coverage.


This sounds like some of the best advice so far - maybe cause it's what I was already thinking... *grin*

I'm not sure I'd call it my 'dream', no stars in my eyes here, but you need a plan and something to get outa bed for...


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## Tim R. (Mar 23, 2003)

joethecobbler said:


> be responsible - translation- I'm worried about what I have and you obviously don't have the financial means to "make good" if something happened. so,you shouldn't be allowed to be sailing because you can't afford my boat if you wreck it.
> to that I say - if you're that scared, stay inside with the children. or YOU buy whatever insurance your fear dictates you need.
> .


Putting insurance aside, are you saying you should not be held accountable for your actions?

Damn straight I am worried about what I have. I have worked a long time to purchase the home of our dreams. You run your boat into it, be prepared to do what it takes to make it right.

I am very pro sailor. Get out there any way you can. I do not care what kind of boat or how it looks or how much money you have but everyone needs to be accountable and take responsibility should they make a mistake. Too many folks these days point the finger or claim "he is rich enough to fix my mistake, why should I pay for it"

This is bordering on a huge political rant but I will stop here.

To the OP. Get the insurance or not is your choice but be a good citizen either way.


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## robertluster (Dec 9, 2008)

joethecobbler said:


> jingo-
> Ha! did you come up w/ that line about "piece of mind " or are you just repeating the line your insurance agent fed you,and you swallowed hook line and sinker?
> From the OP's post's it's blatantly obvious he/she has little or no money and less sailing experience and has aspirations of sailing into the sunset on little or no cash.
> given those conditions, he/she is what is referred to as indigent, and subsequently lawsuit proof.
> ...


VERY well said, Joe, thank you. I paid in the maximum to SS for my entire life and even for a few employees at one time. I hope to live long enough to get much of it back. Everything else was basically stolen from me. There are quite a few folks with that "attitude" you mentioned that live in a very small bubble and basically have no clue. I don't wish to voluntarily be stupid, but I do choose my wisdom from others carefully... *grin*


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## cruisingdream (Feb 7, 2007)

Home Owners Insurance
Many home owners policies cover liability insurance for sailboats up to 23 or 26foot. Check with your agent & see if you are covered. 
Save your money and don't buy insurance you already have.


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## ltgoshen (Jan 5, 2009)

I was kind of in your same mind set when I first went into this boat ownership thing. But I had a well thought out plan in place that I worked methodically. I first studied the laws in my state and the neighboring states, to learn how to take possession of a abandoned or derelict boat. Then I called my insurance company All-State and ask what the insurance requirements were on a boat of 30' size. I learned the 5 most expensive cost to a derelict boat and learned if the problems with neglected boats was something that I could fix. Deck fittings Thru hull valves engine sails Life lines Bottom job, Standing rigging running rigging etc. Once I learned how much it could be on the high side and the insurance cost, I started my search for a boat. I found one on the hook it had been there for 4 years and 7 months without anyone looking in on it. After a lot of hard luck I found the owner and was able to get the boat for $2,500.00 it needed a lot of work. The floors had to come out, The Bimini was destroyed. All the lights had to be rewired. It needed hauled scraped and painted. The cutlass and stuffing box needed replaced. After only 8 trips the 2gm gave up the ghost I was able to purchase a $3,000. 2GM20F and install it myself, 
All and all I'm still way under $10,000 in fact I have spent $10,000. Now and I've had the boat going on 3 years now. So, yes you can do it and with liability insurance. My advise do what you are doing learn from others. Read, read, and research the net. There is so much information out there. There is no reason you can't do what you want within that budget.
Good luck and take a look and I will show what I started with for $2,500 Bucks'
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/general-discussion-sailing-related/84819-s-v-east-coast-lady-shows-her-bottom.html


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

sailingdog's http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-review-purchase-forum/48177-boat-inspection-trip-tips.html, to give you a start. If you do get a survey, be there and ask questions about anything you don't understand or think needs attention.

There are a lot of clever, helpful folk here, but they need information to help you. The more you can tell what you know & have done, and the more specific your question, the more on-target the response you'll receive.

 Smart Questions  is about computers, but through reading it you can get an idea of what I mean.

If you want to search this site for something (most topics have been covered, some several times), use this format in your search engine window:

"boat survey" /site:http://www.sailnet.com/forums/

1) Use the quote-marks or you'll get random hits on individual words in the search phrase.

2) No {space} between "/site:" and "http...."

Good luck!


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Nope you don't need a survey.
You're an idiot not to get one, considering that a survey is essentially free.
Might cost you $750 to have the boat surveyed. Chances are, the surveyor will find enough wrong to justify reducing the price of the boat by at least $750...
so, the survey cost nothing.
Or, the survey uncovers deficiencies that far exceed the cost of the survey, your comfort level or your budget... in which case, the survey saved you more than $750...
so it is free.

If you can't afford a survey, gutcheck yourself about whether you can afford a boat.

The only two reasons to forgo a survey:
1. You can afford to lose the entire 10K you sunk into the boat because it requires thousands of dollars of work over the next year or so that you can't afford, so the yard claims your boat...
2. You are way under market on the boat, you know what you are getting into, and expect to be purchasing a project that you expect to spend thousands and thousands of dollars on...
then forgo a survey.

It's your money.


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## robertluster (Dec 9, 2008)

cruisingdream said:


> Home Owners Insurance
> Many home owners policies cover liability insurance for sailboats up to 23 or 26foot. Check with your agent & see if you are covered.
> Save your money and don't buy insurance you already have.


:laugher
Sounds like good advice. But you either haven't been payin attention, or just don't get it. Don't feel bad or be angry - MANY don't. I believe you must have had some seriously life altering events, AND have traveled extensively to 'get it'. There is no home owners policy - and no 'home' in the conventional sense for several years. Agent? LOL (and if the samples I saw at the boat show pass as 'Agents', there may never be another 'agent'  )


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Regarding insurance, a growing number of marinas require proof of insurance- for the pittance it costs, it's smart to have it just to prevent you from limiting your own options.


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## Tim R. (Mar 23, 2003)

joethecobbler said:


> ...are you.


Yup. I am accountable for my mistakes regardless of insurance.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

There are insurance companies out there that will give you liability without a survey. I believe that Progressive does not require it. Generally some non marine insurance companies don't require it. If it is a trailer sailor, some get coverage under there home owners. I have heard others getting just a generally liability coverage sometimes with an out of the water photo, so you can see the whole keel. Keep in mind you boat may not be worth much, but others around you are. That is why liability is important. And if your boat sinks, even a small trailer sailor will cost tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars to recover and re-mediate depending on where it happens.

As for shady deals, yes they are out there. I don't think they are the majority, but in the lower price range it seems to happen more often. It may not be intentional either. As for needing a pre-purchase survey for me around $10,000 is close to what I would be willing to spend. Remember it will only take one of the big items to cost about what the boat is worth. Certainly a new motor (if inboard) will cost at least $10,000 to have replaced. Rigging is going to be at least a couple of thousand, and sails more than that. While some of these can be done for less. It takes some knowledge to do it successfully. So if a $500 survey prevents you from from buying money pit it could save you a lot.


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## Tim R. (Mar 23, 2003)

A survey could also pay for itself by pointing out something that needs to be repaired and thus negotiated from the final price.


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## FarCry (Apr 21, 2007)

azguy said:


> If you ever hope to spend a night in a marina, and there will come a time you need to, you'll need $300k in liability, so get it now.
> 
> About the survey, only the craziest person alive would buy a boat without hauling it of the water to see what the bottom looks like.... so you may as well get a survey while you're at it IMHO.


Hello, I'd like to introduce myself as the craziest person alive!!!! Call Guiness and the TV stations, I want to milk my 15 minutes of fame.

I've bought two boats and didn't get a survey or haul out either one of them before purchase.

I may have spent some time in the water checking them out but that might take away my new title of Craziest Person Alive!!!!:laugher:laugher:laugher

I keep my boat in a marina, I move my boat to other marinas during regattas and have never been asked for proof of insurance. The world is a big place and things aren't done the exact same way they are done in parts of the US, thank goodness!

To rant a bit, I deal with charter guests from all over the world but mainly US citizens. Many are astounded that they can choose their own level of responsibility/safety and not have an agent of law enforcement chasing them down with a ticket book. You want to run around in the dinghy without a PFD, light, flare, noisemaker, etc. go ahead. Nobody will bother you. You want to put your kids in their without PFDs, go right ahead. You want to take a case of beer with you to drink on the way, fine. I'm not saying that I agree with not being as safe and prudent as possible at all times, I am saying that there are many places that still let a person choose their own destiny without heavy regulation of behavior. I've read posts about the water cops in FL doing all kinds of stops and searches, checking Y valves, expired safety gear and anything else they can think of. It's hard for me to imagine getting lulled into thinking that is normal. I'm not sure I could assimilate back into that type of society despite all the flaws of the society I find myself in currently. Rant over!


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

joethecobbler said:


> there is an insurance thread that someone posted about risk /exposure etc.basically it showed your more likely to win the lottery than actually require the coverage you paid for.


I bought my C25 in October, 2011 and I paid $400 in insurance the first year I owned my boat. I spent at least one day of just about every weekend out there cleaning, polishing, repairing, upgrading, inspecting, etc. When I wasn't out there or at work, I was sewing new slipcovers, refinishing pieces that I brought home, patching sails, etc. in my living room. I lost track of how many hours, and how much money, I put into that boat. Almost exactly one year to the day after I bought her, Hurricane Sandy totaled her, and the insurance company paid up. I guess, to you, I hit the f***'ing lottery. To me, I watched many, many hours away from my family and friends get towed away to a scrap yard. But, on the plus side, the insurance company paid us what we had agreed (when the policy was written) the boat was worth, and that was more than the dollars (though not the labor) I had put into her. If that had been due to some pompous jack A$$ who thought he was "judgment proof" because he couldn't afford to fix my boat, I'd have made sure he couldn't do that to anyone else.


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## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

Simple; Survey no at least liability insurance yes. I pay a Benjamin a year but better than dragging anchor one time and hitting another boat even minimal scratching can cost many hundreds to repair properly I would rather just sail away and let my insurance do the court and paying for the repairs I've carried insurance on cars and boats for over 30 years and never needed it but the one time I do without a shark will bite my rode in half and I will sink a hundred k boat and in that case I'm liable for the cost just not worth the risk to me.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

joethecobbler said:


> The argument about the survey being free is a great story to tell if your a surveyor trying to sell your services using fear.
> however, I ask again. do you guarantee that, if so what specically would that guarantee look like in print.
> you forgot the third reason for not getting a survey - I'm just as if not more capable of determing the condition of a vessel and have my own interests at the forefront without any conflict of interest or hidden agenda or concern of upsetting possible future "work " by being truthful.
> and in the end yes,it is still my money.


I'm not a surveyor- just someone who can see the value, based on his own experience. YMMV.


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## Rhapsody-NS27 (Apr 8, 2012)

I didn't get a survey when I bought my boat. I saw there was some work that needed to be done and didn't worry too much about buying it without one.

But,

Once I started looking for a marina, most (if not all) require insurance on hand. Called BoatUS and they required a survey so then I got one. Once the boat is back on its trailer, I'll adjust the insurance to show it's not on the water, do some refit, then get a new survey to show its updated state.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

joe, there are folks who are judgement proof. For real.

And while it might be satisfying to break their legs, those same weasels will then sue YOU for everything you're worth.

It used to be possible to just go to a bar, pay a guy a couple hundred bucks, and get the job done with impunity. But these days? Good help is hard to find, and most of the guys in the bar are undercover agents getting paid to entice you.

Kind of a shame, when you consider what a cooler full of used body parts is worth these days.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Joe, it wasn't clear that you were quoting someone else. Half a sentence and no open/close quotes will lead to confusion, it is that simple.

the mods are always around, if you need one click the red triangle with the exclamation point in it and sooner or later, they'll appear.

I made and make no comment on whether violence is proper or improper, advocated or protested. I only commented on judgement-proof folks, and the great difficulty in hiring good help these days.

As it is sometimes said, "If you meet the Bhudda standing in the road, you must kill him."


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

robertluster said:


> This kinda sounds like my attitude/plan. Insurance has it's place, but is often for people who don't want to be responsible for themselves.


I'm glad to hear that your philosophy is based on "being responsible for yourself".

So if we are both in an anchorage and a storm catches us both by surprise and your 10k boat drags anchor and holes my 100k boat and sinks it just exactly how do you propose that you are going to do the responsible thing?

If you have a plan to set things right I'm good with your responsible for yourself idea.
If you have no plan to set things right your philosophy might be more accurately be represented as looking out for yourself and first and screw everyone else.

Of course the first way of presenting the philosophy sounds nicer while the second way may be what it ends up being in a practical sense.

That being said sometimes you have to do what you have to do and if you can't afford insurance I sure wouldn't want to imply that you shouldn't sail.


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

Robert, this thread will give you insight on what to expect from brokers & sellers ('forewarned is forearmed', right?):

P.S.--- Beverage Warning --- good info here, and some funny stuff too --- put the beverage down ---

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-...1413-all-sellers-lying-moronic-douchbags.html


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

No you don't need either IMO. Insurance isnt expensive though and you can find places that will cover you without a survey. 

I don't trust insurance companies to pay if something did go wrong so I vote no. 

You do have to know what you are looking for when you shop for boats and only you know how well you think you'll do. 

It seems to me that the boats that are shiny and nice and well taken care of are probably fine and the ones that look like they have been sitting for years are likely to have problems. So in a oat that been actively used an the owner is moving or upgrading. 

It would be good to have someone who knows boats go with you.


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

For the record, I never said I'd do something violent. The fact that you read that into my comment speaks volumes. That, and the fact that your first comment in this thread is to attack me personally, then you come in later and insist that the mods slap ME around? Classy.


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## shananchie (Jan 29, 2014)

A 10K boat can easily cost you 10K to keep it afloat. (Ask me how I know ...) If you don't know boats and you're looking for a bargain, you're going to end up with a boat that needs lots and lots of work. A new diesel? 10-20K. New sails? 5K or more. Cushions? 3-4K. Rigging? 2K. Why would you not pay a surveyor $500 to find out what the boat needs?


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## Dog8It (Jan 2, 2007)

joethecobbler said:


> Timr-
> it would be convenient to the argument of the insurance requirements if I did feel no "personal responsibility " but thus is not the case.
> Who? would be responsible for my action besides me?
> as per your boat, home, and years of work etc. I think if you value them as I'm sure you do,it would be "irresponsible " for YOU to not insure yourself against loss resulting from others or risk loss on your own choice.
> ...


You better be careful out there. A lot of us are still more than capable to go "old school" towards those who exhibit this type of reckless mentality. If you wreck my boat AND you think it is my problem because you don't believe in insurance or you "have no money in your pockets", I do not think you comprehend what you are getting into. We care about our boats more than you can imagine and we (or at least I) will NOT take this type of attitude lightly. Trust me, you really do not want to find out what we are capable of.

You are much better of being responsible for your own actions and, if something happens, be ready to make the other sailor & his boat right. No matter what it takes. Period.

Happy sailing. It is beautiful out there. I hope you get to enjoy it [responsibly, that is].


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## ericb760 (Apr 11, 2012)

Insurance on a boat worth less than 10K is dirt cheap, and worth every penny from a liability point of view. Surveys? Again, on a less than 10K boat, what are they really going to tell you? Both of my boat purchases, which were in this category, included a mask and a dip. Relying on someone else to tell you what the bottom looks like, and paying them to do it, when you can dive in and look for yourself, never made much sense to me.


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## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

joethecobbler said:


> well Rambo, that sounds alot like a threat of illegal retribution. or threat of violence.
> which one you wanna go with?
> and just exactly what are you capable of beside empty threats on an internet chat site to people you've never met or even seen?
> what possibly could you be saying? that you're threatening me? If that wasn't so hilarious it might be criminal. As I said, the only way I'm buying insurance is if it required by law to register and operate my vessel. don't like it too bad.you cannot do anything about it.
> ...


He can't do much but if there is an issue I bet his insurance company attorneys can do a lot 
Not to mention his own attorney I don't believe he was advocating physical violence


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

Did we scare the OP away?

Robert, come back. 

SailNet is not exactly an exercise in classroom didactics --- it's more like a backyard barbeque bull session, wandering all over the place, but usually, eventually, circling back to your question --- and sometimes the side trips will show you things you didn't know you need to know.


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## rbyham (Dec 25, 2012)

Progressive is very affordable and does not require a survey. I would not be without it. As to a survey, I did not get one a year ago and it turned out very well. What I did do was read every word of these forums for a year asking questions where needed. Plus I made a good friend in the area who was an experienced sailor. He came with me on third visit to the boat and made great suggestions. That and I went slow. If your budget is 10k shop in 6k range. Plenty of decent boats in that range out there unless you want to circumnavigate. Keep 4k back for things like repairs, delivery, and Splashing.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Progressive has gotten (and earned) mixed reviews. Something they share with most of the home/auto insurers is a lack of experienced _marine _damage adjusters. A friend of mine had his boat covered by his home and auto policy, and the adjuster was green around the gills (rough water after a storm) and rapidly finished his work, very generously. Except, the boat wasn't hauled to check the underbody and subsequently they missed a damaged rudder and _expensive _replacement of that.

These are the kind of things that an inexperienced owner might not think to ask about, and a "sure, we do boats too" insurer might not think to deal with. Intentionally or accidentally.

Joe-
Killing the Bhuda is a bit hard to explain. I suppose the short version of it, is that things are not always what they seem, or what we would have them be. You'll find plenty of references to the phrase online that go deeper. And that even for peaceful people, sometimes violence is the correct action. If the answer was simple, it wouldn't come from philosophy, would it?


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## joebeach (Aug 16, 2011)

"Killing the Buddha" means slaying (metaphorically) the external role models, and internalized superego/commands, that tell you what you "should" be or do, so that you are free to actualize your own true self. Some say it derives from Buddhism's teaching that each of us strive to achieve our highest potential, or to become our own Buddha, and thus the need to kill other (false) Buddhas on our way to enlightenment.

Or maybe, in keeping with today's head thread, it's all just a load of poo....


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

joethecobbler said:


> because I'm not a moron.
> I'm more than capable of seeing anything a surveyor could see,probably more.
> without time constraints.
> I guess if your not skilled, capable, mechanically inclined and/or just a simpleton you need a surveyor.
> ...


You're missing the value of a survey.
The value is not in the fact that a surveyor knows more than you or is a better mechanic than you or understands systems better than you... indeed you may actually be the all-balls gawdam McGyver/ Don Casey/Nigel Calder rolled into one you think you are...
but you haven't got the title. You haven't got the letterhead that says "Surveyor" on it....
and from a saving-money-when-buying a boat standpoint, that is all that matters.
A would-be buyer poking around a boat, saying "yeah, i think the decks are soft, so I'll give you $2000 less than you're asking" carries no authority. That same buyer turning to a seller with a surveyor's report with the moisture meter readings noted? That's got some value- it means something.

I wouldn't get a 32' bayliner buccaneer surveyed either- it is a pretty simple, straighforward boat wiht low cost systems, and a replacement can be had for under $5K. But when we start talking about larger more expensive ($10K )boats wiht more expensive systems, as the OP is, then a survey by a reputable surveyor will probably be free...

But hey, if you want to argue against free, have at it.


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## Dog8It (Jan 2, 2007)

joethecobbler said:


> well Rambo, that sounds alot like a threat of illegal retribution. or threat of violence.
> which one you wanna go with?
> and just exactly what are you capable of beside empty threats on an internet chat site to people you've never met or even seen?
> what possibly could you be saying? that you're threatening me? If that wasn't so hilarious it might be criminal. As I said, the only way I'm buying insurance is if it required by law to register and operate my vessel. don't like it too bad.you cannot do anything about it.
> ...


Well, let me see. You post a lengthy, rambling note which basically says that you are free to cause any damage to anyone you wish and, even if it is your fault, you do not give a damn. What do you expect after such a statement ?

Do you really believe that everyone else is just supposed to stay out of your way because you are somehow special ? Sorry, but you are not. Your responsibilities are just like everyone else's: you make a mess, you clean it up. Simple. That is what I have been taught in the old days. No exceptions.

Did I threaten you with violence ? No. Would I pursue my legal options in such an event - you better believe it. And that would not be empty talk. Trust me on that.

Can I force you to act responsibly ? Unfortunately, I cannot. However, if you did act recklessly, I am fairly certain that I could prevent you from causing such damage to others. Don't worry, it would be done legally.

See you on the Bay.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

If you are still looking for a boat Don Casey's Book Sailboat Maintenance Manual includes stuff on carrying out your own survey. 

I looked at a lot of boats before buying my current one and Casey's book helped me identify serious issues on a number well before I got to thinking about an offer. 

Casey's book also tells you how to fix stuff.

Keep looking and damn the cannons and naysayers.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

joe, I insure my boat because it gives me freedom. it gives me the freedom to anchor or dock where i want when i want, and it costs me about $3/wk not to have my options limited in this increasingly litigious world.


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## CruisingCouple (Jan 14, 2014)

robertluster said:


> I'm still shopping and waiting for the chance to move aboard and head south on a budget that is basically NO budget


We have owned many boats and only ever got a survey on one (our Legend 37), and only because we had to finance $12,000 of the purchase of it and the lender required the survey. Otherwise I do my own surveys on over a dozen boats we have owned over the years.

If you get a smaller boat to start with with an outboard and pretty simple and basic systems, anybody that knows the difference between a vise grips and a screwdriver, and is reasonably experienced with boats should be able to do their own survey.

We have always had liability insurance in the event we are sailing along and somebody with a $1.5M boat cuts us off just because they figure they're "better" than we are. So we consequently ram the side of their boat and put a hole in it and sink it. Being they have a $1.5M boat they probably have high dollar lawyers too. And those high dollar lawyers will make it our fault, even though it's not.

We have always self-insured on comp on our boats until we got the Legend, which we had to buy comp for because of the damn lender. The lender will be paid off in May and then we will drop the comp on it. If somebody rams the side of our boat and sinks it, we'll just take the money we saved on comp premiums, buy one of those high dollar lawyers and sue 'em


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

None of us ever "plan" for stuff to happen, so for $3 a week, why not CYA if you ever NEED to slip into an insurance-requiring marina? What can it hurt? It's like the deer whistle conundrum- sure you can't prove deer whistles work, but what can it hurt to put them on? yeah,I know you don't need to install deer whistles because you've never hit a deer...but doesn't that just mean the odds are greater that you will hit one in the future?


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## CruisingCouple (Jan 14, 2014)

joethecobbler said:


> what else you got?
> you might convert me.


Our liability insurance only costs us $100/year for $500,000 combined single limit or whatever they call it. All the marinas here require it to have a slip. I don't remember what the minimum is but I think it's $100,000. I'd have to check my contract for our slip.

But I've never seen where they require it to go the fuel or transient docks.

It's not you you have to insure for. It's the dude who bought the $200,000 powerboat and doesn't know anything about how to skipper one. But he's got enough money to make everybody else liable for his mistakes. He spends most of his life in a high-rise office building and on weekends he turns into Captain Courageous with his toy. You can be sliding into the fuel dock and Captain Courageous will cut you off just because he can to get there first. And when you bump into him because he cut you off he gets all bent over the $10,000 scratch in his boat that is actually his fault. We've seen it. When you get into an incident like that and you got liability insurance you're not on your own. That $100 or $150 a year buys a lot of lawyer power because all these insurance companies got lawyers working for them to try to get out of paying a claim and get the other guy's insurance to do it. It levels the playing field.


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## Dog8It (Jan 2, 2007)

joethecobbler said:


> yea,as I thought, your all bark.
> as for your interpretation of reality, good luck.
> As,I have not caused ANY damage to you or anyone else's boat. until I do you are mearly blowing smoke.
> but for the sake of argument let's say I sink your boat, you Atty I'm sure will be happy to take your money. but he cannot extract from me that which I do not have. and you would be SOL. no tangable assets no money, etc. there are legal limits that basically shield the "poor " if you think you could take my boat,so what I paid $2000 for it 10 years ago.
> ...


You still don't get it, do you ? It is mentality like this that will lead to the mandatory boat insurance. I am not saying that you have caused any damage or that you are likely to do so in the future. However, if you do - you better be prepared to make the other sailor whole, whether you have insurance or not. Why ? Because it is YOUR responsibility (assuming you are at fault, of course).

The problem with your argument and approach to this issue is that it does away with responsibility, both financial and moral. And that will inevitably lead to the government imposing mandatory insurance, because we as a society chose to ignore or forget what is right and wrong and rather do what we as individuals want.

If one chooses to get on the water where there are other people's boats, one must understand and be prepared for the risk that there can be potential damage to other boats. There are several ways to deal with this risk. If you are very rich, you can "self insure" and be prepared to compensate the other side from your own pocket. If you are not wealthy, then liability insurance is your best friend. To take the approach of being "judgement proof" is pathetic, not to mention irresponsible and immoral.

In the situation you mention, if someone was to damage or sink my boat and it was their fault, I would certainly pursue a judgement on the person and go after all their assets, including the boat. It may not be worth much, if anything, but still as an asset it can be seized in most jurisdictions. And that to me would mean that at least I prevented similar misfortune to others. Yes, I will not gain anything financially but at that point it is not about the money. Rather, it is about what is right and what is not. I may not get compensated for my losses but I will make sure that the reckless behavior and devil-may-care attitude ends there. And that at point, it does not really matter how much it will cost me, as it really is no longer about the money but rather principle. Old school stuff.

So, you may call it "blowing smoke" or "bark" or anything else that makes you feel comfortable but to me it is a matter of principle and I will stick with it no matter what. I have been raised on those values and I am not about to change.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

Joe another thing you might want to think about it the possibility of hurting a person not just property damage to a boat.
You served our country, and for that I'm thankful. You probably are very good at what you do with a lot of experience, I get that.
But what if something goes wrong on your watch? It might not even be directly your fault.
The rudder linkage may break causing a loss of steering. Your throttle may get stuck in gear and not go into neutral. You can get an overwrap on your jib sheet and not be able to release the jib. Any of these things happening at the wrong moment may cause you to loose control of your boat and hit someone else.

What if the guy you hit has a little 6 year old boy in the boat and your hitting the boat causes the kid to go flying and he gets hurt? What if he gets hurt bad and needs surgery and hospitalization and rehab.

If that happened even if you are personally judgement proof I suspect you would be the happiest guy in the world if you could look the father in the eye and tell him you got the 500k policy not the 100k policy as you tell him to not worry about the kid because you have good insurance.

I love to hate insurance companies just as much as the next guy but my personal experience with boatus has been all positive. They were pleasant on the phone, prompt with the damage assessment and prompt with the check in the two instances I was involved with.

Even if I was judgement proof if I caused someone physical injury I would find it pretty hard to live with myself if I couldn't at least do something for them. At least that is how I would define taking responsibility for my own actions.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

joethecobbler said:


> actually I did hit a deer,memorial day 1981 about dusk,doing about 65 MPH on my first legal street bike!
> I lived no injury, the deer(about 150lb.) not so fortunate.
> I had just dropped of my girlfriend, I slid about 300' on my back.
> it was exiting.
> oh, I had ins. but not comp,it was a $100 bike.


So, if insurance had cost you less than $100 to replace your bike, it would have been free, wouldn't it?
adjusted for inflation , 33 years later, my $150/year is actually less, that what you were paying back then.


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## Kalina-Lona (May 31, 2012)

I'm buying my first sailboat as well and it is below 10k. I don't think that number indicates anything other than I'm getting a lot of boat for a great price. A 1975 Northern 29 that has been owned since 1985 by the present owner who has babied her all those years.
A survey was completed by him in 2008 for a sale, but he changed his mind and sailed her a few more years. I called the insurance company and they have agreed to insure the boat for an agreed value (purchase price in some cases) I can't imagine sailing without insurance. Liability of 2m is pretty common with most marinas. As someone new to sailing a boat of 29', I feel it my responsibility to protect myself and others.
The cost of insuring is really inexpensive ($200.00) for peace of mind?
There are too many people out there who would love to sue the pants off you, and for $200.00 you shouldn't have to worry about that.
I hope you find the right boat and can start your new life.....Enjoy!


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

joethecobbler said:


> ok,I see how liability insurance can benefit myself and others, thanks for the insight. I'll start budgeting for the coming season.
> I guess I was/am jaded due in a large part to the ten's of thousands I paid out years ago when I owned a transportation/trucking company. never had a claim but paid over $15000.00 a year for each unit ! it was outrageous and they didn't even give me a hug.
> looking back, trucking really sucked, almost glad it's over even if I did loose it all,it's good to be back home w/family and shoemaking/repair it's much more rewarding ,particularly making corrective footwear for people.


Thanks for that insight into your life.
It sounded to me like you are a good guy that just had some ups and downs like most of us and is tired of getting the short end of the stick.

Have fun sailing and keep in touch about your shopping experience you sound like an interesting guy.

As far as the survey goes if you are spending about 10k and it is not required for some reason I think luck plays a bigger part than we would like to admit. Probably the same in most of our life.

You could get a great surveyor who not only does the survey but puts you in touch with guys that can source you cheap parts and knowledgeable professionals and point out something subtle and expensive anyone but him would have missed because he owned the same model boat.

Or he could be a dud and fill out a form and charge you 500 bucks.
You never know. 
If you ran trucking company for years you don't need me to tell you that sometimes you're the bug and sometimes you're the windshield.


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## abrahamx (Apr 3, 2006)

I did not read through the whole thread yet but I would say that you dont need a survey for insurance through progressive. I set up a policy over the internet for my 1972 9k boat with no question of a survey. That being said, I did get one for myself. It helps to familiarize yourself with the boat and tell you every thing/system you have on the boat and what make,model, etc... for $450 it was way more than worth it.


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## CruisingCouple (Jan 14, 2014)

Kalina-Lona said:


> Liability of 2m is pretty common with most marinas.


My gosh. $2M? I just dragged out my slip contract and read it. It says:

_4. Tenant agrees to have his or her boat properly insured and shall provide proof of liability insurance in an amount no less than $500,000 per occasion and list the City of Ashland as Additional Insured on the policy. Tenant will be held responsible for damage he or she may cause to other boats in the Marina or to the structure or facilities thereof._


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

I would guess that the insurance which marinas themselves carry (for the customer boats) is something like "excess coverage" insurance. That is, the marina's insurance policy kicksin AFTER the first 1/4 million, or 1/2 million, or whatever amount the tenant is required to carry, and in the usual insurance rate manner, they marina pays a different premium based on when that coverage kicks in. 

So if the marina requires you to carry 1/4 million of liability coverage, maybe they pay 1% of the value of the boats over that. If they require you to carry 1 million in coverage...maybe they pay 1/4% of the value over that. One way or the other, I expect the numbers are all a wash at the end. Either you're paying for your own insurance (not a bad idea) or your slip/storage rate is paying for it via the marina's overhead.

Unless of course you've got one of the marinas that simply carries no insurance, in which case if you've got none either...you're helixed. (A euphemism I'm forced to use in some PG-13 web forums.)

(Percents above taken from thin air, anyone who has real numbers, feel free to provide them.)


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

One of the sport fishing boats I worked on in my youth was t-boned while sitting in its dock slip by a 20 something in an uninsured Sea Ray type boat full of "babes in bikini's"... 

The owner had a 1% hull deductable which amounted to about 19k. When the owner discovered the kid had no insurance, and that this was his second uninsured incident, he let the lawyers out of the cage..

Long and short that kid was still paying for those damages for nearly 10 years.... He was lucky the owner only went after him for his deductible because the owner paid the 40k + out of his own pocket to repair the damage. 

He did not believe his insurance company should be coughing up for it. In reality he let the kid off pretty easy.. When I asked why he did it he said the kid needed to learn that life and your actions carry responsibility..... He said his responsibility was to pay for the poor choices he'd made.... He also believed that doing this was his moral obligation to society and if he did not he was just par of the problem.. To this owner 19k was a drop in a bucket and his whole point was to drive the point of responsibility home to a kid who had none, TWICE... 

This was an owner who I sat I a parking lot with for 40 minutes waiting for another car owner who's door he "dinged" when a gust of wind ripped his door fom his hand. He tried very hard to write the young lady a check but she refused and claimed she could not even see the damage... I lost 40 minutes of my life but learned a lot about Richard and how he felt about personal responsibility..

If you can afford & you are self insurred, to go up against an owner like Richard, and pay the dues and the consequences of an accident, by all means go for it..... That accident was a few inches fron going from 40K to six figures and this was not a high speed at all just a moment of inattention..


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## aelkin (Feb 3, 2013)

To the OP - get the bare minimum of liability insurance. As others have expounded very well, it's not for YOUR property, but for the property of others that your actions might impact.
If a survey is required to get that insurance, then suck it up and pay for it. it'll be a fraction of the cost of ownership. I don't suspect that will be the case, though.
As far as surveys go, if you don't need one for the insurance, don't get one. Buy Don Casey's book, get permission to spend the day on the prospective boat, buy a six-pack, a bag of ice, and make yourself a couple PB&J sandwiches. Spend the day getting close to your new boat. If you can't find anything that makes you worried, don't worry. If you can't negotiate a lower price without a survey, you're not a very good negotiator. (sorry BLJ)

To joethecobbler. I'm sorry. You irritate me. I'm Canadian, I'm responsible, and I haven't mis-spelled a word in 10 years. I work hard at that. (point is on the way, wait for it...)

Like you, I struggle with the quoting on this site. So - I'll just wing it from memory. You telling people in general that 'if they're (sic) not mechanically inclined, or incompetent, maybe they should just not buy a boat' is grossly unfair, condescending, and mean. It would be like me telling YOU, a man who has made over 100 grammatical and spelling errors in THIS THREAD ALONE that he should not be allowed to operate a keyboard.

As many others have stated, your attitude is irresponsible. I respect your right to choice. I do not respect your comments about how others are paying for your benefits because you spent 2 years deployed. Because I'm Canadian, I feel no patriotic obligation to tell you that I owe you something for serving a country. 
Jerks serve in the military for selfish reasons all the time. Trust me, I know some. 
Good men don't throw the benefits of their sacrifices in the face of others - regardless of the nature of that sacrifice.

Best of luck to the OP.
Cobbler - I hope your boat never ends up within 100 miles of mine. We'll both sleep better that way.

Andy


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

Joe,
Thank you for your service.  We owe men and women like you a very deep debt. I didn't serve, grew up in an area of the country where a lot of my teachers weren't all that enthusiastic about the military. But as I worked for the Coast Guard, on Navy contracts, for Congress, etc., I came to appreciate just how much you guys sacrifice for the rest of us, no matter how short or long your tour of duty. I'm also sorry to hear about your business. It sounds like you had a pretty good run there for a while. But it also sounds like the new gig, especially the ability to help others, is more personally rewarding. I hope, in the end, that it leads to much happiness with you and your family.

Thank you also for keeping an open mind as this thread has progressed. BLJones, David, Maine, and others have said more eloquently what I tried to say, and it seems to have sunken in. I regularly sail with my family (actually, that's basically the only time I sail). So, in my mind, as I read your comments, I was envisioning an accident in which I not only damaged someone else's boat, but also hurt their family. The thought of walking away and sticking someone else with the cost of care is something that I can't bear. Hopefully you'll find that the cost of the insurance will be insignificant compared to the peace of mind that it gives.


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## neverknow (Feb 2, 2011)

robertluster said:


> Well, Thanks just loads for the heads up, but corrupt lawyers, insurance companies, and a particular nameless hospital are the reason my IRA and 401K and ex wife all went "poof". I'm thankful for the ex-navy surgeon that worked on me - but all the rest should be lined up against a wall somewhere... If anyone were to EVER try to collect 5 or 6 digits from me again, they will just have to suck hind teat - and it's dry... :hothead


If you were ever in the military (no matter when) and you have no income or assets you can get free VA medical. Check into it. The VA made some changes in the past few yrs. More ppl now can get medical that couldn't before.

As far as the rest insurance. Just buy a boat US membership for $150 a year and when a marina ask for insure proof flash them your card. Unless you plan to stay in one place more than a few nights I doubt they will careless. If they do just move on.

Sounds like you have had some bad luck, you might as well take advantage of the fact you have been cut free. There are many people reading this who wish they could be so lucky. It's just so hard to give up our cushy lives and just go. You had that done for you. Wish you the best.


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## aelkin (Feb 3, 2013)

joethecobbler said:


> guess what else, I don't pay for health insurance either!
> YOU are paying it for me! through the VA, 100% for life, no copay,free meds,glasses you name it ,and a service connected disability as well! God bless America ,sure glad I got that 2 year Korea deployment, it sucked being there, but sure panned out in the long run.
> "At the breech" 1st.Eng. "mission first "2nd.ID
> see ya on the bay tough Guy.


Joe;
I don't need substance to form a personal opinion of someone...but since you asked - here's the part where I went from 'I don't agree with him' to 'I don't respect him'.
Honestly, up until this point, I was interested in your point of view. When you cut through the wide-reaching animosity towards the world at large, you made some interesting points, and some shrewd analyses of the insurance situation as a whole.
However, when a veteran throws a line like this at a civilian, all the basis (in my mind, anyway) that afforded the vet some level of automatic respect goes out the window.

That's my only point.
I don't need to continue this conversation, but if you'd like to, PM me, and let's move it somewhere else so we don't continue to hijack the OP's legitimate questions with our discussion.

Andy


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

aelkin said:


> As far as surveys go, if you don't need one for the insurance, don't get one. Buy Don Casey's book, get permission to spend the day on the prospective boat, buy a six-pack, a bag of ice, and make yourself a couple PB&J sandwiches. Spend the day getting close to your new boat. If you can't find anything that makes you worried, don't worry. If you can't negotiate a lower price without a survey, you're not a very good negotiator. (sorry BLJ)


No need to apologize. Your interesting point above brings up a couple of questions which also play into the survey/no survey question:
What is your time worth?
Are you someone who likes working on things and understands how they are supposed to work, and can inspect a boat and actually know what you are seeing?
You'd be amazed how many people can't, and maybe slightly less amazed at how many who can't, but think they can.

Regarding that "what is your time worth?" question- a good pre-purchase survey (not an insurance survey or appraisal survey- whole different kettles of fish. boatpoker has a great explanation on his great website: My fee Schedule and why marine surveys cost what they do ) on a 30-35' boat should take at least 3 hours.

I value my spare time at $150/hr. that is what the little spare time I have is worth to me. So, if I am going to inspect a boat in Bayfield, for example, 3 hours away, it is gonna cost 6 hours of travel, plus 2-4 hours of poking around- that is near enough to$1500 of my time to do something that someone else, who is likely better at it than I am, would charge half that or less. I know I know, that $150 spare time value is imaginary. But it isn't, really. If you have to do your DIY survey on a workday, you've lost a day that needs to be made up, that has to come out of your spare time- your spare time always has value.

I like kicking around boat yards and checking out boats, because that is the kinda guy i am. I can fumble my way through most boat systems and can likely figure out what i need to know- but as hard as it is to believe, not everyone is like me.

So, if you don't like that sorta stuff, if you are a clean hands sailor, (lots of them out there- it is why yards stay in business) how good is your self-survey going to be, and how much do you NOT want to do it?

Regarding your assertion: "If you can't negotiate a lower price without a survey, you're not a very good negotiator."

Of course you can negotiate a lower price- but a survey in hand will allow you to negotiate the LOWEST price. Bear in mind when a survey is occuring- as a condition of sale.
You have already negotiated the best price, subject to survey. Then the surveyor finds something you missed, or something you didn't think about or found an elevated moisture reading around every stanchion that you didn't notice when you were jumping up and down on the foredeck during your pre-purchase inspection. 
A survey that notes deficiencies re-opens the negotations... and there are always deficiencies.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

bljones said:


> I like kicking around boat yards and checking out boats, because that is the kinda guy i am. I can fumble my way through most boat systems and can likely figure out what i need to know- but as hard as it is to believe, not everyone is like me.
> 
> So, if you don't like that sorta stuff, if you are a clean hands sailor, (lots of them out there- it is why yards stay in business) how good is your self-survey going to be, and how much do you NOT want to do it?


Your point is very important.

Another thing that hasn't been mentioned before is that even very experienced professionals can make poor decisions on their own potential boat they would never make on a customers boat.
If fact due to their experience it may be easier for them to underestimate costs.

I have seen pro's fall in love with a boat because of the pedigree, lines, low price etc and convince themselves they can rectify all the faults quickly and cheaply.
If it was a clients boat they would have given an accurate appraisal of the costs and condition.

But because it was their own dream they were particularly convincing and capable of fooling themselves.

There is something about your own potential boat that makes otherwise level headed guys go all gooey.


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## joethecobbler (Apr 10, 2007)

aelkin-
respectfully I'm not interested in automatic respect.
I was attempting to represent that I am not a complete uncaring ass without regard for others by giving an example of my voluntary military service. apparently I missed my mark with that.
as for serving almost anyone can,they are always looking for new talent. at 28 it was a bit of a change, but nobody forced me and the check never bounced.
now back to our regularly scheduled topic already in progress.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Joining this thread late. What can I say that has not already been said?

OK, here's sumthin:



robertluster said:


> ...An old, leaky, unsafe boat out on the open water seems MUCH preferable to that!..


You apparently have not been out in the open water in a leaky, unsafe boat. 

Good luck pursuing your dream. A lousy boat will spoil your fun (and possibly your life). Take your time and find something good.


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