# Marina Status - Opening?



## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

I would like to know what everyone is hearing from their marina. Are they open, or opening, or delayed, or not opening? Give the location, and if you want, give the name. I just put a deposit on another marina that I am unfamiliar with and I am now wondering if they will open. My old Marin, Rondout Yacht Basin just sent the following e-mail to owners;

*"We're taking it pretty seriously and doing what the state is recommending. We are going to continue to monitor the situation and we're hoping to start putting boats in slowly by May 1st and have limited access to all the facilities. We're honestly hoping for the 15th but more optimistic for the 1st."*

Location is Hudson River, New York


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

You are probably asking about seasonal marinas like up in Northern areas. Year-round ones further South appear to be guided by individual state mandates. In Florida, some are closed completely with residents fending for themselves wrt pumpouts, etc, some are closed to new boats coming in but still providing basic services to existing boats, some are open completely like normal. This has been a situation in flux, though. Marinas in Georgia have been likewise.

The Waterway Guide website has been collating marina virus operation information for many of the marinas along the ICW.

Mark


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Waterway Guide Covid-19 marina status database:

https://www.waterwayguide.com/covid-19-reports

Up our way the Ontario government has closed all "non-essential" businesses and services. This appears to include recreational marinas, although I'm seeing conflicting reports from various places.

I'm still trying to get formal confirmation about the status of marinas in Newfoundland (where my boat is located). Since that province has a tighter lock down than Ontario, I assume recreational marinas are also closed. But I'd love to have formal confirmation ... anyone?


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

I have received Corona emails from all manner of companies whose email list I am on telling me their policy in this time. Most I don't read because it has no relevance to me.

I have not received one corona email from any of the marine business I have done business in the past with face to face contact which include:

Seymours Boatyard, Northport
Volpe Marine Mooring Service
Schooner Cove, Stamford
West Marine, Stamford
Old Lyme Marine


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Marinas are not open technically here for outsiders though some of them are putting boats in. Too many incidents of boat owners mixing with marina employees. Plus there is a ban on recreational boating in Maryland.

It’s a STAY AT HOME Except for essential personal and essential tasks mandate . Working on your boat doesn’t fall under that so things are at a standstill until the Governors order is lifted.


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

From my marina this morning:

"We wanted to give you an update regarding our COVID-19 safety precautions and procedures. As of Saturday, April 4,2020 If you have a launch date within 30 days you may enter the yard to access your boat when employees are not on-site, which will be only on Saturdays and Sundays at this time. Please be aware that also during this time our offices and work spaces will remain closed. Our north heads will remain open for customer use with the standard door code. 

Safety is our #1 concern, that being said we will be enforcing a strict policy where staff will not work on any boat that a customer was in contact with for one week. Please plan accordingly if you will be launching.

We will continue to actively assess the situation and provide weekly updates on our marina policies that comply with local, state and federal orders and take all necessary actions in the best interest of the health and safety of our employees. Please feel free to contact us if you have any questions or concerns.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Safe harbors has ever current or recent past customer an email.
IGY St Lucia is closed and fully locked with NO access.


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## PhilCarlson (Dec 14, 2013)

outbound said:


> Safe harbors has ever current or recent past customer an email.
> IGY St Lucia is closed and fully locked with NO access.


Are they still charging rent?


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

IGY is. Got emailed the haul and first months bill yesterday. Don’t know about safe harbors. Haven’t been in barrington for 2 years now. Was surprised to get an email from them.


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## CLOSECALL (Dec 11, 2012)

Virginia marinas are open for business at the discretion of the owners. Recreational boating is permitted in Virginia but not Maryland. Stay at home orders in Virginia appear to be mostly a strong suggestion from the governor.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Definitely not voluntary . violations are class 1 misdemeanors. I would call your dept of natural resources and ask about recreational boating. Course the drive to the marina is not essential either.



CLOSECALL said:


> Virginia marinas are open for business at the discretion of the owners. Recreational boating is permitted in Virginia but not Maryland. Stay at home orders in Virginia appear to be mostly a strong suggestion from the governor.


https://www.wsls.com/news/local/202...forced-heres-what-local-law-enforcement-says/

https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/virginia-gov-northam-issues-stay-at-home-order/2258486/


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## CLOSECALL (Dec 11, 2012)

Well, I did check with game and inland fisheries and recreational boating is permitted. Some ramps are closed but many are open. Fishing is permitted.

My marina in the Northern Neck is open for business as usual except the cafe is closed and the pool probably won't open. Distancing is required, of course.

I read from Maryland DNR that boating was permitted to practice recreational crabbing and fishing, which I found surprising.

Enforcement is primarily aimed at gatherings in excess of 10.

Whether or not it is appropriate to engage in boating activities is not something I feel qualified nor inclined to discuss.


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## FunkyJunk (Oct 14, 2018)

It bears repeating (although most in the MD/DC/VA area probably know) that almost all of the Potomac is governed by Maryland, so as soon as you put the boat in the water you'd be in violation. DNR says "subsistence" fishing is okay, but not recreational fishing. Commercial fishing is okay since it's part of the food supply chain.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

From the Maryland DNR WEBSITE- frequently asked questions from the horses mouth 

Can I go boating? 

Recreational boating is prohibited until the governor lifts the executive order or until the State of Emergency has ended. However, if an individual is boating to seek food for them or their family, boating is permitted. Boats used to transport essential employees or goods as defined in the Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency’s Guidance on the Essential Critical Infrastructure Workforce are also permitted.


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## CLOSECALL (Dec 11, 2012)

I guess I misremembered that word subsistence. 

Back to the original topic, Virginia marinas are mostly open for business.


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## Sean.Lowe (May 1, 2019)

Our marina in Southern California is open, the office and lounge are closed to the public, the staff is working reduced hours, and non company mail and deliveries are not accepted. They're upping the cleaning of the restrooms and showers,and they're not handling cash for slip payments.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

CLOSECALL said:


> I guess I misremembered that word subsistence.
> 
> Back to the original topic, Virginia marinas are mostly open for business.


Lol....ok Roger Clements&#55357;&#56898;&#55357;&#56839;


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## bristol299bob (Apr 13, 2011)

Oriental NC: 

marinas are open to owners, we must maintain distance and sanitize responsibly. 

the town dock is open but if you arrive you must self quarantine on the boat. deliveries (groceries, restaurant take out, boat parts) are available.

Dinghy dock is open, self quarantine as appropriate. the boat ramps are open. 

boatyards are open for business but only staff are allowed on premises. 

parks are open but playground equipment is closed. chairs and tables at the parks have been taken up.


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

My marina was bought by Safe Harbors a couple of years ago. I just got this email from the Regional VP for Safe Harbors for CT/NY:

_We are extremely pleased that we have been able to continue commissioning and launching the boats.

As we continue forward in April, we need your absolute cooperation and understanding with regard to your behavior when you are on the property. Whether you are working on your boat on land, or you are enjoying your boat in its slip, you absolutely must abide by all Connecticut and CDC guidance with regard to social distancing and personal care.

We are fortunate that our properties are open but this could end if we do not adhere to strict guidelines that have been shared with all. When you visit the properties, please remember the following:

No socializing in groups of more than two,
Observe social separation - 6 feet,
Keep yourself and your co-worker appropriately spaced when working on the boat,
No gatherings aboard boats, in the water or on land,
If you find that you and your slip mates are side by side and this does not allow for social distancing when you are aboard, please ask the marina for a temporary slip assignment.

Our collective efforts keep everyone safe.

Thank you for your help and understanding._


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## jwoytek (Aug 22, 2008)

Lake Erie, Erie, PA. Port Authority owned marina, operated by Safe Harbor with local management. Opening date had been set for early-mid-April. We received an email from the manager a couple of weeks ago (I think—the days are running together a little, and I didn’t save the message) saying that they hoped to be able to open on time. At the time, only some areas of the state were under stay-at-home orders. We were, but Erie wasn’t. That has since changed, of course, and the whole state is now stay-at-home, and all non-essential businesses are supposed to have their physical operations closed. 

I have not heard from the Port Authority, who operate the storage yard where we and many others are on the hard. They do have commercial users, too, and they are certainly operating enough for commerce in the Port of Erie, but I have no idea what anyone’s plans are at this point. Me working on our boat is not a life-sustaining activity (this is the term that has been used in Pennsylvania to classify permitted activities and business operations), so I technically can’t do that, even if I could get to the boat, which itself is questionable. 

The order in Pennsylvania is currently indefinite. Even if it is lifted or eased by 4/30, I’m sure that it will take some time to get the marinas opened. Safe Harbor operates a few of the Erie marinas. They’re all owned by the Port Authority, so I’m sure there will be some additional government hurdles to jump along the way. We had planned to do a full bottom job this spring, but we might be doing just a scrape and re-coat, depending on how long the season is delayed. 

We also have a beach cat and kayaks at a state park closer to home. They were to open in mid-April. They contacted us to say that they were closed until at least 4/30, and would be prorating our dry mooring and kayak rack permits. 

I am honestly not optimistic about having much of a season this year. This is still going to get worse before it starts to get better. We are doing what we can to help flatten the curve and protect our families, neighbors, and friends, and I’m on board to work that angle as long as we need. I’m a volunteer firefighter in my community, and I see clearly how important it is right now to protect those who are most vulnerable. I have lots of projects that can be done at home, our girl is under a nice new cover this year, and she’ll be there waiting when we finally get through this.


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## RichF28 (Jun 17, 2015)

In SC the knucklehead governor has not issued a stay at home order. They did close all the public boat ramps. My marina is closed, no pump out, no line handling assistance. But you can take your boat out if you want. I have been out a couple times in the last few weeks, there are only a few non commercial boats on the water. And I did notice an almost complete lack of crab pots, probably because all the restaurants are closed and nobody is buying. I don't feel that taking the boat out is a risk for anyone, since I don't interact with other people. The main issue is people who don't have a boat look at you and think, why doesn't he have to stay home....


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

I guess you are lucky and not
Your governor is a knucklehead and risks us all
Ours, Hogan in MD is a good leader. In his edict it even says no recreational boating

Stay safe


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

RichF28 said:


> In SC the knucklehead governor has not issued a stay at home order. They did close all the public boat ramps. My marina is closed, no pump out, no line handling assistance. But you can take your boat out if you want. I have been out a couple times in the last few weeks, there are only a few non commercial boats on the water. And I did notice an almost complete lack of crab pots, probably because all the restaurants are closed and nobody is buying. I don't feel that taking the boat out is a risk for anyone, since I don't interact with other people. The main issue is people who don't have a boat look at you and think, why doesn't he have to stay home....


So .......

The knucklhead didnt issue a stay at homer order, so you go boating :crying


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

Florida has banned anchoring in State managed waters along the ICW. There are reports that some FWC local cops are saying that means anywhere on the ICW. With lots of marinas closed or not accepting new transients just where do they think boaters anchored are suppose to go. I bet a lot to most of those anchored boats have been pretty isolated, but now are being to go into increased contact with people.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Our marina in Narragansett Bay is open. Boats are still being launched, so owners must come to plug them in and secure them. No customers are permitted in the office, but are permitted aboard their boats, in compliance with distancing requirements. They're pretty easy to follow. 

It would be pretty uncommon for anyone to go sailing yet. In normal seasons, we target getting off the dock on May 1 and have most everywhere to ourselves (and those we goat into getting ready early). That's out this year, but it will happen eventually. 

Sad that such a warm spring, for the first time in years, has been disrupted like this.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Don L said:


> Florida has banned anchoring in State managed waters along the ICW. There are reports that some FWC local cops are saying that means anywhere on the ICW. With lots of marinas closed or not accepting new transients just where do they think boaters anchored are suppose to go. I bet a lot to most of those anchored boats have been pretty isolated, but now are being to go into increased contact with people.


Is this new today? A few days ago restrictions were put in place regarding boats must keep a 50ft distance from each other, no more than 10 people on a boat, and public boat ramps were closed, but I haven't heard of an anchoring ban here, and there are definitely many boats at anchor I can see from the marina.

That was current as of yesterday. I haven't seen any news today.

Mark


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

colemj said:


> Is this new today? A few days ago restrictions were put in place regarding boats must keep a 50ft distance from each other, no more than 10 people on a boat, and public boat ramps were closed, but I haven't heard of an anchoring ban here, and there are definitely many boats at anchor I can see from the marina.
> 
> That was current as of yesterday. I haven't seen any news today.
> 
> Mark


Think it started Friday. But as normal some local FWC guys are already misapplying it to all of the ICW. On the FWC webpage there is a list of what is closed, but who knows how current that it.

No way to believe anything anymore.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

I have mixed feelings about recreational sailing as a social distancing activity. On the one hand, it's a great form of exercise that keeps you moving around, cranking winches, etc. If you go straight to your boat, stay on the boat with your family, and go straight home, it would not appear to harm others. Things do get complicated about public restrooms. Normally, we always try to use them in the marina, so as not to fill the holding tanks unnecessarily, and pumpouts do put the attendants at risk. The risk of using public restrooms is now much greater, which would put a strain on holding tanks and pump-out attendants.

But the biggest problem with recreational sailing is recreational boaters. Like it or not, in the eyes of the non-boating public, they lump us in with the hard partiers that raft up, drink to excess, and partake in drunken debauchery. As I mentioned on another thread, I witnessed it myself at my boat club a week ago, as a group of people came in to launch a trailer boat and hung around outdoors in a tight circle drinking, smoking, and vaping. Just like non-boaters who pack the beaches, government gets forced into stricter restrictions that punish everyone for the actions of a few. I can't help but think that alcohol is behind a lot of the impaired judgment that leads people to engage in dangerous behavior. 99% of the time I live a total alcohol-free existence on and off the boat (I'll drink about 3 times a year, so 3/365=1% days drinking), but from what I see this is a rarity in the boating world.

So when people complain about recreational boating being banned, we have boaters to blame for it.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Delaware City Marina is open winter hours and encouraging people to do recreational boating. For the past week, they've had this graphic prominently posted at the top of their Facebook page as their cover photo (since taken down). Based on some Facebook comments, I think they've taken some flack for it (for which they promptly returned fire):


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

There's one other thing I've been wanting to post for a couple of days, but not sure when/where. This thread may be as good a place as any:

From time to time I've seen some complaints here on Sailnet about the growing trend of mergers and acquisitions of Mom&Pop marinas by large conglomerates. (search for the posts yourself if you're curious) The concern is that these conglomerates may be trying to dominate the market and force prices up, and perhaps eventually develop waterfronts into high-priced gold-plated resorts that offer amenities that most sailors may not want. I think I might have commented on some of those threads that such tactics may backfire on investors, since the large debt needed to try to corner any market (including marinas) can result in big problems once a downturn in the economy hits. Well, welcome to the downturn! Maybe this will push the trend back toward independently owned marinas.

I've seen a lot of references to Safe Harbors Marinas, which I had never even heard of until recently. A quick Google search reveals that these guys are backed by the Koch brothers. I'll just leave it at that. This article might be interesting reading. I wonder if they were able to pull off their $2 billion sale before the $hit hit the fan last month:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...-harbor-marinas-is-said-to-eye-2-billion-sale


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

I have stayed in Safe Harbor Marinas on the LI Sound. They are all first class places.
They have a criteria in buying one and with few exceptions most small mom and pop marinas don’t fit the bill.

I think there will always be a niche for marinas without all the e tra creature comforts. We are in one now, that’s one reason it’s so peaceful.&#55357;&#56835;


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Marina or boat yard, yacht club?

A marina to me (what do I know??) has not services other than slip rental, bathrooms and perhaps a fuel dock. They may have things like a pool and of course a parking lot.

Boat yard have what marinas have, but they usually offer the following services... haul and store boats on the hard and in the water...do repairs, which include rigging, engines, electric, plumbing, fiberglass, painting and waxing, joinery.

Both may offer moorings.

Both probably vary in size.

Mom and pops are usually small boat yards, not always.

Yacht clubs may have slips and or moorings, may haul and store boats, usually have a bar or restaurant, don't usually provide repair services and may have a fuel dock and have parking. They usually have a launch service. Yacht clubs are private and memberships require annual fees. Most offer reciprocal "service" to other yacht clubs. They often hold races and have sailing programs for youngsters.

Is this correct?


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Not here on the Chessie


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

chef2sail said:


> Not here on the Chessie


please elaborate


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## contrarian (Sep 14, 2011)

I would be curious about this too. What Sander said pretty much exemplifies the way it is in Florida.


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

And Connecticut.

Safe Harbor was primarily a " pure marina" type of chain (few repair or boat yard services), with a lot of properties on southern lakes. A few years ago they purchased the Brewer's chain, which was known for having facilities that are both marinas and boat yards.

My marina was a locally-owned facility with both marina and boat yard services. Brewer bought them three or four years before Brewer sold out to Safe Harbor. Brewer clearly invested a lot of money into my marina, expanding the amenities, which have been kept up and built upon by Safe Harbor.

I kept my previous boat at a marina across the river from my current marina. That place (since closed; it stands vacant to this day) was truly a mom and pop place, with the mom and pop (and their son plus a few very part time staffers) doing all of the work. No amenities or services beyond docks, seasonal haul and storage and a bathroom (no hot water).

After both takeovers, I expected Brewer or Safe Harbor to raise prices and/or decrease services. So far, neither have happened.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

mstern said:


> ).....After both takeovers, I expected Brewer or Safe Harbor to raise prices and/or decrease services. So far, neither have happened.


I had heard the Koch private equity firm had ponied up the funding to initially buy Jack Brewer out. As recently as this past November I had heard they had sold that position to another PE firm. It was memorable, because it made me think how hot things were, if one PE firm could make double digit returns and still find another that would think they could do the same on top of it. Maybe they only sold a small portion, because the article above suggests they were still looking or an exit a couple of months ago. I'd be fascinated to know where that stands.

Anyway, your prognosis above may just be delayed. They aren't going to see those returns for a while and one wonders how they react to generate the cash flow they need to make PE happy.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Minnewaska said:


> ...Anyway, your prognosis above may just be delayed. They aren't going to see those returns for a while and one wonders how they react to generate the cash flow they need to make PE happy.


Hopefully (for boaters) there is still enough competition from independent marinas to keep prices reasonable. However, longer term, prices may be headed up either way. PE firms have a way of doing whatever it takes to monetize assets. If they can't earn enough cash flow from marinas, closing them up and repurposing to high end condos would reduce supply of marinas and allow the remaining marinas to raise prices. But how much market will there be for "high end condos" for the next 10 years after we're through this pandemic?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I don’t think they’ll be able to raise prices. I recall things leveled out in last crisis, for a few years. It’s expenses that were cut. Less staff, fewer dock hands, etc.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

SanderO said:


> please elaborate


-Less than one percent have moorings
-many marinas have year round contacts, longer season to sail
- big areas of mega sized marinas near rivers ( over 250 slips)
- many more medium sized marinas ( 100-200 slips)
- many more small marinas ( under 100 slips) 
- many more creeks with private housing having slips as well as slips
To rent. 
- 101 yacht clubs in CBYCA , some with slips and clubhouses but are a 
Small Amy compared to marinas
- no launch services except in maybe 4 spots that I know. Many
More dinghys

The Chessie sailors are a true anchoring group as there are no moorings.
Their are many more slips available than LI Sound. No mega morring fields.

Totally different boating experience in some ways. We have traveled to the LI Sound over 20 times. Both areas have great sailing, but a very different.

The Chesapeake has over 11,000 miles of shoreline....greater than the West Coast of the US. Compared to 1600 miles for the LI Sound

The Chesapeake is know for its hundreds of creeks and Rivers with an incalculable variety of anchoring possibilities. Many small marinas located on them. Plus add to that the homes with slips.

Most of the marinas under 150 don't have restaurants, pools etc. the greatest number of marinas are these. Plenty family owned passed down to generations.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

chef2sail said:


> Not here on the Chessie


All recreational boating has been banned on the Maryland portion until June 10th. Only bank fishing and kayaking.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

pdqaltair said:


> All recreational boating has been banned on the Maryland portion until June 10th. Only bank fishing and kayaking.


Where did you read June 10?


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## contrarian (Sep 14, 2011)

Wasn't there an article about a petition to the Governor to allow sailing from your own dock ? Thought I read that somewhere this weekend. Is it true Maryland allows fishing, Kayaking and paddle boarding ?


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Limited fishing is allowed if you are seeking food for you or your family, but the social distancing guidelines and the prohibition on social gatherings must be strictly followed.

Can I go boating? 

Recreational boating is prohibited until the governor lifts the executive order or until the State of Emergency has ended. However, if an individual is boating to seek food for them or their family, boating is permitted. Boats used to transport essential employees or goods as defined in the Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency’s Guidance on the Essential Critical Infrastructure Workforce are also permitted. 

This is from the Maryland DNR site . No time limit is shown except it says till lifting of order or state of emergency


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

contrarian said:


> Wasn't there an article about a petition to the Governor to allow sailing from your own dock ? Thought I read that somewhere this weekend. Is it true Maryland allows fishing, Kayaking and paddle boarding ?


https://news.maryland.gov/dnr/2020/...ons-about-governor-hogans-stay-at-home-order/


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

pdqaltair said:


> All recreational boating has been banned on the Maryland portion until June 10th. Only bank fishing and kayaking.


It's actually Virginia's executive order that currently ends June 10.


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

mstern said:


> And Connecticut.
> After both takeovers, I expected Brewer or Safe Harbor to raise prices and/or decrease services. So far, neither have happened.


Safe Harbor significantly raised the summer slip prices last summer here in Glen Cove , LI. I was told 30% or so by a good friend. And Brewers prices were not cheap before that. Quite a few empty slips and lots of boats never launched. I will be surprised if the number of empty slips doesn't increase this summer.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

TakeFive said:


> It's actually Virginia's executive order that currently ends June 10.


Correct. I mixed it up in my head with a VA order banning charter fishing through June 10th.


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

JimsCAL said:


> Safe Harbor significantly raised the summer slip prices last summer here in Glen Cove , LI. I was told 30% or so by a good friend. And Brewers prices were not cheap before that. Quite a few empty slips and lots of boats never launched. I will be surprised if the number of empty slips doesn't increase this summer.


This exchange got me curious enough to pull out my files and see just how prices have changed between this year and last at my marina. Looking just at the base prices for the slip (not including discounts for being a winter storage customer and early payments), prices increased about 6% from last summer to this summer. This is a true apples to apples comparison as it is for the exact same boat in the exact same slip. It's a little more difficult for me to go back further than that; before last summer, I was in a different boat using a different slip. Those records are in a different file, whereabouts currently uncertain.

At my old mom and pop marina, I never really worried about the place being sold for condos; it was on a side street that had no sewer service, so there could never be more than a single family residence built there. I know they tried to sell it a number of times, and apparently, they have never been successful, even after the place closed. My current marina is probably a different story. The marina is across the river in a completely different "neighborhood", where there is sewer service.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Northport

https://www.facebook.com/groups/265..._id=1586054170856450&notif_t=group_highlights


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

SanderO said:


> Northport
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/265..._id=1586054170856450&notif_t=group_highlights


We love Northport 
It has well over 1000 moorings I bet
We also like our slip in a mains just north of Annapolis but south of the 
Bay Bridge with Ernie and Abigail. The bald eagle pair in a tree watching
Over our boat.???????


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Ernie and Abigail


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

You can see from the NPT drone vid and stills it is very empty for this time of year but not totally. Seymours floating docks are not in place yet. I suspect the boating "season" is essentially suspended until further notice.

Nature's creatures are enjoying the absence of humans.


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

Our yacht club staff is limited to "maintenance" and I suspect the marinas are in the same situation.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

My boat is shrink wrapped on the hard in RI with the mast down at the moment. I just received this in an email from the marina;


> ... all visitors to the properties must adhere to the state and CDC guidelines with regards to social distancing and the use of Personal Protection Equipment ("PPE"):
> 
> Commercial carriers can come into port, unload materials, and then leave port
> Crew may not leave the ship
> ...


The way this is presented seems like a grab for marina service business to me. However, there is NO WAY that I'll let the marina technicians work on my boat without me.

I am in Florida, so there is no reason for me to get too excited. The Florida Governor says that we have all the PPE and ventilators that we will ever need - but you out of staters better stay out (and there are police checkpoints along I-95 and I-10 going into FL). I guess that I won't return to my boat until the situation changes.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

That will pass quickly, or Newport will pass up all our cruising tourism dollars this summer. Not likely


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

eherlihy said:


> My boat is shrink wrapped on the hard in RI with the mast down at the moment. I just received this in an email from the marina;.........


That list looks like a bastardized version of a letter from the DEM to the RI Marine Trades Association, sent yesterday. It is only guidance, but your marina obviously adopted it quickly.

The out of state quarantine is mis-leading at best. Yes, if you come from out of state, there is an Exec Order, by the Governor, that requires one to self-quarantine for 14 days. However, that means 14 days before one can move about the State. That does not mean 14 days before you can then directly leave the State again. Ask the health department which set law. No marina can forcibly detain you. That notice reads like you will be forced to sit on your boat for 14 days, if you come from out of state.

Clearly, the bureaucrats have failed to process that by leaving the marinas open, they are launching boats at record speed. It's been a favorable Spring. That means much of the fleet is in the water already, all of which represent an environmental hazard if their owners can not check on bilge pumps, battery levels, etc.

That said, you don't want to get in a toe to toe, with your marina. The fact is that the media and politicians in RI have stirred up a fear that out of state license plates are all infected. If you go, people will be scared and lord knows what scared people do. Especially the ignorant or self-righteous ones.

RI has obviously made a conscious decision to allow the marine trades to continue operating, as it's one of their largest industries. However, it's all heading for a brick wall. The season is considered to officially start in 3 weeks and there isn't enough business to be had from RI residents alone.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

Sal Paradise said:


> That will pass quickly, or Newport will pass up all our cruising tourism dollars this summer. Not likely


Whole countries are passing on ALL tourism dollars. Shows how non serious really the US is taking the whole thing except with a few inconveniences and lip service.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Thanks for that @Minnewaska, I was able to use the RIMTA reference to find this; RIMTA | Covid-19 Resources


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## Chas H (Sep 6, 2013)

The 'Safer at Home' initiative from Wisconsin Governor Tony Evers has included marinas as essential infrastructure. And to my knowledge Tony is not a boater, but maybe some of his friends are. Therefore it will business as usual. I can launch May 1.
-CH


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Don L said:


> Whole countries are passing on ALL tourism dollars. Shows how non serious really the US is taking the whole thing except with a few inconveniences and lip service.


Yes a lot of those countries have a population less than a remote county in Montana .

However I agree with you The problem is the control rests with indivigual states And they are driven by economic interests.


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

eherlihy said:


> The Florida Governor says that we have all the PPE and ventilators that we will ever need - but you out of staters better stay out (and there are police checkpoints along I-95 and I-10 going into FL).


This is the guy that let the beaches stay open for the spring break kids. I don't think I would believe anything he says.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

We have to get out of this and the only way we get out of it is with massive nationwide testing. That reality will collide with out current federal leadership eventually.

I am a bit worried as I will be at a Ct marina with NY plates. On a NY boat.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

JimsCAL said:


> This is the guy that let the beaches stay open for the spring break kids. I don't think I would believe anything he says.


I don't believe what ANY politician currently in office says unless I can fact-check/verify it myself. Some politicians are more trustworthy than others. This guy and his predecessor (now a senator) are toward the bottom of the heap.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

eherlihy said:


> Thanks for that @Minnewaska, I was able to use the RIMTA reference to find this; RIMTA | Covid-19 Resources


I have to say these are grossly painful. The Q&A for operation guidelines for marinas is noted to be the "summary of a zoom call" with DEM. It is wrong. It's is simply one scared bureaucrat's feeble understanding of how the quarantine rules work.

Here's the painful one......



> Q. Can out-of-state owners come to Rhode Island for the day to either work on or use their boat kept in a Rhode Island marina/yard?
> 
> A. No. At this time, any person coming to Rhode Island by any mode of transportation after visiting another state for a non-work-related purpose must first self-quarantine for 14 days. So an out-of-state boat owner can not go to a yard/marina to do work on their own boat unless they plan on self-quarantining aboard or at an in-state residence for 14 days.


It is not how the rule works. It is how some simpleton thinks it works or, perhaps more likely, would like it to work, because their fear has been ginned up.

Yes, I think the rule is stupid to begin with. However, my sole point is the incorrect administration of the rule that is on the books.


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## Papagarbs (Apr 19, 2015)

My local marina (Lansing, NY) announced they were considered essential. Then adjusted their statement after a talk with the NYS Department of Labor. 

They are no longer working on, nor launching boats. Their boat ramp is closed, so you cannot launch on your own. They are working on marina improvements only. 

I am guessing we won't get boats in until late May. They pulled my tranny in the fall for a rebuild, now can't put it back. 

Oh well!


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

So, in NYS the wording of the Governors Executive Order is -

For purposes of Executive Order 202.6, "Essential Business," shall mean businesses ... marine vessel repair and marinas, but only to support government or essential commercial operations and *not for recreational purposes ...
*


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## alanr77 (Jul 24, 2009)

I just sailed into Galveston Bay from the Gulf of Mexico. I usually anchor for a day or two when making a new port just to get ready for contact with people again. After being checked on by the Houston PD, full ID and registration check mind you, and being told that it’s weird to anchor in Galveston Bay.....I went into Clear Lake. The Blue Marlin fuel dock was open but one by one, no marina would take someone new. The only one that would had a “can’t live aboard anything smaller than 40’” law. Finally(and luckily) I came upon Marina Del Sol (it was last on my list as it was deep into Clear Lake) they were fine with it and very welcoming. I don’t understand closing marinas to transients if you can prove you were offshore for the last month.........but is what it is.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

alanr77 said:


> I just sailed into Galveston Bay from the Gulf of Mexico. I usually anchor for a day or two when making a new port just to get ready for contact with people again. After being checked on by the Houston PD, full ID and registration check mind you, and being told that it's weird to anchor in Galveston Bay.....I went into Clear Lake. The Blue Marlin fuel dock was open but one by one, no marina would take someone new. The only one that would had a "can't live aboard anything smaller than 40'" law. Finally(and luckily) I came upon Marina Del Sol (it was last on my list as it was deep into Clear Lake) they were fine with it and very welcoming. I don't understand closing marinas to transients if you can prove you were offshore for the last month.........but is what it is.


Are you a US citizen?
They should at the least make you quarantine for 14 days.
Are you staying there or continuing sailing ?

So this virus started ramping up more than 1 month ago. When did you start cruising and leave the US?

If you are continuing sailing I can stand reluctance for allowing you to do that.

In MD there is a stay at home governors executive order with no recreational boating. You might be considered recreational boating

However if you need to stay somewhere do to an emergency that's different


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## ojsdna744 (Jun 29, 2018)

Bay Harbor Marina in Bay City...closed to all until at least Apr.30th. No idea how they will get boats in. They’re a huge marina and will have a long back-log of seasonal boats to launch.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

alanr77 said:


> .......I don't understand closing marinas to transients if you can prove you were offshore for the last month.........but is what it is.


That's on a very long list of why this brute force approach to shut everything down and shelter everyone will be shown to have been extraordinarily ill conceived. I'm convinced they'll think of an equally effective method for the next round, that is more sophisticated. There must be a smarter way of determining who should or shouldn't be in public, than simply "essential businesses". You're right, it is what it is, because our government(s) and health department(s) were caught with their pants down had no other plan.

In Rhode Island, anyone unfortunate enough to have arrived with a NY license plate on Mar 26 was required to quarantine for 14 days, which was up yesterday. Now there is no way to tell the difference between those that complied and those that just arrived. Not unlike your cruising point. It's already done. All will be harassed, particularly in grocery stores, because the public has been told to fear them. As noted, there are many out of state owners of second homes in RI and who knows how many moved to them to get away from hot spots. I haven't seen if any have been admitted to a RI hospital yet.

It's the worst leadership, across the board, I've ever seen.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

Minnewaska said:


> That's on a very long list of why this brute force approach to shut everything down and shelter everyone will be shown to have been extraordinarily ill conceived. I'm convinced they'll think of an equally effective method for the next round, that is more sophisticated. There must be a smarter way of determining who should or shouldn't be in public, than simply "essential businesses". You're right, it is what it is, because our government(s) and health department(s) were caught with their pants down had no other plan.
> 
> .


Well yes, there will be; massive scale quick and cheap testing. Its the way out.

Right now we are watching a game of chicken between the Feds, who should be ramping up testing, contact tracing and quarantine facilities - and states who cannot afford to do that, but also cannot afford not to.

The casualties will be thousands of Americans who design and make the science, engineering and technology in our country, and those companies - as they are all in dense urban areas.

I am pessimistic about the next round of corona virus. I think we will go through a slightly better version of this in the fall as Trump will be in office. If we get rid of his ilk, and get basic health service up and running then I think corona virus goes into the dustbin of history pretty quick.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Please don't make this about one side vs the other. They literally all screwed up. Our State Health Departments regulate the hospitals and didn't have proper protocol to insure sufficient PPE for a pandemic. Basic, ground level failure. Yes, the oval office is the worst leadership I've seen, especially the worst communication. I've never believed that a good speaker meant a good thinker and can name politicians that dupe everyone, only because they sound good or firm. I've watched several of Cuomo's press conferences, as I have family in NYC. Very well spoken, but often playing games, answering a question he wasn't asked, instead of the harder one. But the guy in the oval office simply says things that a flatly dangerous. Nevertheless, I don't put the entire problem at his doorstep. That's simply politics. 

As for massive scale testing, you still need a way to distinguish who's taken it and who hasn't. Same problem as those in RI with NY plates, having already quarantined. The public has been told to fear everyone.


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## Pernalski (Jul 22, 2019)

Our marina on south shore of Ling Island has posted signs to social distance and avoid workers. We scheduled our launch pre-COVID and they honored the date launching us this past Wednesday. We received a mass email from the marina saying launches were not happening and we would need to ask to be placed on a reschedule list but when I asked the service manager he said he hadn’t seen the email and our date was still good. The tech launching the boat told me (from a distance) he had 2 other boats to launch and he thinks that will be all until things get better. It’s all very confused and not a ton of communication between the upper management, middle management, and techs. 
I just looked up COVID recreational boating in NY and it seems they are only encouraging social distancing, avoid crowds at dock, beaching, anchorages, etc. Didn’t see anything saying that it’s been halted. I took the boat out for a bay test on Wednesday, I saw maybe 5-10 boats out but that’s not uncommon as it’s early in the season, no police presence telling us to return home. 
Fuel dock will be another issue for me, I topped off before winterizing the boat.
Stay safe everyone.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

There is no reliable way to defeat the spread of this virus at this time other than people being isolated and with no contact. The less the better. This is obviously not possible because some people have to "work" and therefore have contact. And all of us need to replenish our food supply. The isolation and distancing measure now in place and largely complied with may be slowing the spread. I suspect we will not know for some time.

There are all prophylactic... sort of like stay out of the fire you don't get burned... but the fire will rage on until its fuel is exhausted. As important as prophylactic approach is, it seems to be flawed and virus is still able to spread.

A reliable test is mission critical to stopping the spread. Then at least the carriers can be "forced" to live in complete quarantine and not expose others.

The final weapon will be a vaccine and drugs to kill the virus.

This is complicated it seems because many acquire the virus and their body does not succumb. Many also carry and are asymptomatic. They may be transmitting unwittingly. This is why a test is important. We need to find the stealth carriers.

The rising numbers appear to be from contact before the social distancing and isolation measures were put in place. And even with these measures there are weaknesses in the approach - the virus spreads albeit slowed down.

++++

It looks like a long road ahead until it will be safe to return to normal levels of social contact.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> That's on a very long list of why this brute force approach to shut everything down and shelter everyone will be shown to have been extraordinarily ill conceived. I'm convinced they'll think of an equally effective method for the next round, that is more sophisticated. There must be a smarter way of determining who should or shouldn't be in public, than simply "essential businesses". You're right, it is what it is, because our government(s) and health department(s) were caught with their pants down had no other plan.
> 
> In Rhode Island, anyone unfortunate enough to have arrived with a NY license plate on Mar 26 was required to quarantine for 14 days, which was up yesterday. Now there is no way to tell the difference between those that complied and those that just arrived. Not unlike your cruising point. It's already done. All will be harassed, particularly in grocery stores, because the public has been told to fear them. As noted, there are many out of state owners of second homes in RI and who knows how many moved to them to get away from hot spots. I haven't seen if any have been admitted to a RI hospital yet.
> 
> It's the worst leadership, across the board, I've ever seen.


I agree about the leadership at the federal level but not in many of the states where many governors showed critical thinking and problem solving skills.

The countries where it appears to have the greatest success basically declared martial law.

Once again pointing fingers at obvious problems with no hint of a workable solution does no good. Most of us see the same problems you do. Constant reminding us isn't a solution though.

Do you have any suggestions of solutions. Understand to do that opens you up to others analyzing and criticizing your solutions. So how would you realistically solve this?


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Pernalski said:


> Our marina on south shore of Ling Island has posted signs to social distance and avoid workers. We scheduled our launch pre-COVID and they honored the date launching us this past Wednesday. We received a mass email from the marina saying launches were not happening and we would need to ask to be placed on a reschedule list but when I asked the service manager he said he hadn't seen the email and our date was still good. The tech launching the boat told me (from a distance) he had 2 other boats to launch and he thinks that will be all until things get better. It's all very confused and not a ton of communication between the upper management, middle management, and techs.
> I just looked up COVID recreational boating in NY and it seems they are only encouraging social distancing, avoid crowds at dock, beaching, anchorages, etc. Didn't see anything saying that it's been halted. I took the boat out for a bay test on Wednesday, I saw maybe 5-10 boats out but that's not uncommon as it's early in the season, no police presence telling us to return home.
> Fuel dock will be another issue for me, I topped off before winterizing the boat.
> Stay safe everyone.


Understand you felt it necessary to make sure your boat was launched without problem.

Most states allow transit on the water to move a boat so cruisers are not stuck comming home. Maybe that's what you saw

Doesn't your state and the marina state have STAY IN PLACE governor orders. Most that I have seen like Maryland list travel for ESSENTIAL purposes only and list them. Recreational boating doesn't usually appear. So how does that order allow you to go boating in the future till it's lifted. I wouldn't go on some marinas day so , I would call the states department of natural resources.

Short of that approval you are putting people in danger by skirting the law which encourages other to do so.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

chef2sail said:


> The countries where it appears to have the greatest success basically declared martial law.


Actually, the countries that had the greatest success jumped on it early, tested almost the entire population, performed deep and detailed contact tracing, and isolated the sick and carriers from the rest of the population. They didn't shut down their economy, nor issue stay at home orders (beyond the actual sick).

The countries with the second greatest success basically declared martial law. Their economies were shut down at least in part, and all people quarantined for periods of time. This was done summarily from the top, and not piece-meal local efforts.

Then there is us among the countries that have failed miserably and are paying a heavy price because of these failures.

Mark


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

SanderO said:


> The isolation and distancing measure now in place and largely complied with may be slowing the spread. I suspect we will not know for some time.


From experiences elsewhere, it appears it takes 2-3 weeks for isolation and distancing measures to show effect. We might be seeing the beginning of the effect right now.

Mark


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

New York State and City, it appears, are facing the worst of it. More cases there than any other country they say. I'm hopeful they can get it under control sooner than later.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

For those who keep their boats in a slip... it seems imprudent to resume your boating with the virus out there. It's pretty hard no to get with the proscribed distance when walking down a narrow dock with someone coming at you from the other direction. I've seen people simple not enter the relatively narrow aisle in a supermarket for this reason. 

It's conceivable to me that one could do recreational boating and have no contact with anyone. But you still need to get from your home and from your boat back to your home and this may be where the close contact takes place.

And then consider the situation where some mechanical failure occurs and you need sea tow or a mechanic. These would violated the social distancing directive.

It is frustrating for me because my boat is in the water... needs nothing to use it (recommission the engine) and the dock where it is "wintering" is like a ghost town even in normal times... it's nothing like a typical busy marina.

Fact is I don't need to sail. When I sail I will anchor... walk the dock... visit the shore and businesses there, re provision... and so on. Sailing for the sake of sailing only appeals to be when the conditions are perfect...say winds 15kts, no seas running, blue sky and pleasant temps. When my time on the water is driven by a calendar I can't choose the weather... I deal with it. Now I am not faced with THOSE constraints.... I face a much more dangerous one and act or in this case.. don't act... accordingly. Thousands of new cases are reported every day DURING the lock down.

When the number of new cases reported is down below say 100 / day... maybe it will be safe to go out.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

colemj said:


> Actually, the countries that had the greatest success jumped on it early, tested almost the entire population, performed deep and detailed contact tracing, and isolated the sick and carriers from the rest of the population. They didn't shut down their economy, nor issue stay at home orders (beyond the actual sick).
> 
> The countries with the second greatest success basically declared martial law. Their economies were shut down at least in part, and all people quarantined for periods of time. This was done summarily from the top, and not piece-meal local efforts.
> 
> ...


Mark, which are the countries who tested the entire population.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

T37Chef said:


> New York State and City, it appears, are facing the worst of it. More cases there than any other country they say. I'm hopeful they can get it under control sooner than later.


Density, mass transit, and every major dwelling has an elevator. Makes it so hard. Hopefully they can have enough recover and distance the others


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

T37Chef said:


> New York State and City, it appears, are facing the worst of it. More cases there than any other country they say. I'm hopeful they can get it under control sooner than later.


What pisses me off is that my wife works for Montefiore Med Center, the largest hospital (it gobbled up many others) at one of their satellites in the Bronx. She does no medical work, but administrative/clerical. Her work is not needed in this time. The clinic is essentially closed. Yet she is FORCED to show up at work each day and sit in her private office and do noting. 1199 SEIU, her union has not stood up for her in demanding that she be allowed to stay at home. This is very f*cked up. Bronx has a extremely high infection rate.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

chef2sail said:


> Mark, which are the countries who tested the entire population.


I was probably a bit over-stating the entire population thing, but South Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong, and Iceland are examples of countries that tested wide enough to statistically model the entire population (and did deep tracing and isolation). This is the amount of testing necessary to contain an epidemic - literally testing the entire population is not necessary for mitigation.

After locking down and shutting their economy, China has implemented widespread testing and tracing and are using it to guide reopening.

Mark


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

There is no equivalency here. No two sides. Criticism of the Fed response is its own category and should be. 2 minutes of critical thinking should bring any American to the fact that the POTUS has access to intelligence briefings that no one else can see. 2 or 3 months ago. And he has special powers, duties and budgets that no one else has to protect the country. POTUS alone has those powers and duties. 

Its a national crisis and the mayor or governor is not really empowered to fight it.They are stepping into the breach because they have to. So, don't go there, we all expect better from you.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I hope this doesn't become the next political covid thread. 

A pandemic solution does not have to prevent spread entirely. That is a key point that has caused hysteria. There are literally people that believe they will die, if they get sick. 98-99% will not. The perception and reality are grossly out of sync.

The correct solution solely reduces the mortality rate of the population at large, it does not prevent infection. Mandate isolation of anyone who has a co-morbidity or age demographic, or some version. Some others will still suffer, but the former isolation may reduce impact on hospital capacity to allow for their treatment. Social distancing does work, but does not fully require us to stay at home. Fundamentally, we aren't and it's still working. Everyone goes to the grocery store and outside for exercise and it's working. Hiding under a rock is for the fearful and they should hide.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

colemj said:


> I was probably a bit over-stating the entire population thing, but South Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong, and Iceland are examples of countries that tested wide enough to statistically model the entire population (and did deep tracing and isolation). This is the amount of testing necessary to contain an epidemic - literally testing the entire population is not necessary for mitigation.
> 
> After locking down and shutting their economy, China has implemented widespread testing and tracing and are using it to guide reopening.
> 
> Mark


I agree the US has f.... up . Leadership is why. The problem has to fall at the federal doorstep. You see what happens if they don't step in and lead. Bidding against each other for respirators and PPE eg.

The governors of many of the states are trying to step up in the vacuum.

Only the feds can fund the rush to the vaccine which is a long way away.

The small countries you mentioned would be small enough to get their arms around their populations. Most are pretty isolated to begin with . They are not democracies either.

I believe nothing that China says or that ANY information coming from there is at all correct. For economic reasons only they have no choice but to make themselves look ok. That's why they covered it up in the beginning. Word is informally that they have had to lock down another city. Not surprising as to the size of their population and density. We've seen both work against containment with NYC being. Prime example. Plus there is no one allowed to independently corroborate the so called successes.

This is a terrible scourge. I don't see the solutions working until the head of the executive branch is replaced. He didn't cause it, just didn't react to it, couldn't, his personality makes him distrust others and he believes he's smarter than the rest of us. Smarter than the doctors, smarter than the generals, smarter than the intelligence people, smarter than the economists.
Until the head goes, the problems will continue.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

chef2sail said:


> They are not democracies either.


That would probably come as a surprise to all of them. Particularly the one with the oldest democracy in the world.

Mark


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

ok... lets stay on topic 


Thanks. 


Sal


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

Latest from my yacht club in Glen Cove, LI is that nothing will happen this month. They hope to begin opening things in May. We usually have club workdays every Saturday in April. Instead we will sign up for projects and do them on our own schedule in May to avoid large crowds. We store boats in our parking lots and have a machine for launching and hauling. Problem will be docks and floats as a late fall storm last year did major damage and contractors remain on hold due to this construction shutdown. I am hoping the club will be fairly operational by the end of May.


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## alanr77 (Jul 24, 2009)

chef2sail said:


> alanr77 said:
> 
> 
> > I just sailed into Galveston Bay from the Gulf of Mexico. I usually anchor for a day or two when making a new port just to get ready for contact with people again. After being checked on by the Houston PD, full ID and registration check mind you, and being told that it's weird to anchor in Galveston Bay.....I went into Clear Lake. The Blue Marlin fuel dock was open but one by one, no marina would take someone new. The only one that would had a "can't live aboard anything smaller than 40'" law. Finally(and luckily) I came upon Marina Del Sol (it was last on my list as it was deep into Clear Lake) they were fine with it and very welcoming. I don't understand closing marinas to transients if you can prove you were offshore for the last month.........but is what it is.
> ...


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Sal Paradise said:


> If no one minds I will request that Mark strip out all off topic posts ( including my own) and we will limit the discussion to marinas and their opening or not opening.
> 
> So Mark can you please remove posts; 62,63,64, 71, 72, 73, 75, 78, 79, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87. and this one.
> 
> ...


Sal,
I don't agree with that. It sets a bad precedent. I understand why you may want that done.

Sanitizing or censoring posts is really only done when it becomes personal or the TOS are violated. Those posts are neither.

You want them sanitized I assume because of drift. So going forward we can start requesting that on any post. Anytime we don't think that someone is sticking to our original intent I don't think that should be done.

Censoring in general is not something which should rest with someone on here. It should only be used with those issues that the mods have used it use it for in the past. Personal attacks or TOS violations.

Dealing with drift is part of posting on here. Once you post you should not be able control others speach. Sometimes on the drift a topic evolves which is a learning experience I all of us.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

removal may be draconian... Can they be moved to a separate thread for off topic posts?


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

ok, so what you want to do is-

Just continue on topic but leave the political posts in the past? OK

So be it.Please post marina openings/status on this thread.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SanderO said:


> removal may be draconian... Can they be moved to a separate thread for off topic posts?


Whatever the mods decide, I think this has proven to be a recipe for disaster. Anyone who wrote a post is automatically subscribed to that new thread, typically in offtopic/politics, where someone really has to run off at the mouth.

Leave them alone. Delete them entirely (my preference). Close the thread, if it gets overheated, and someone can start a new one, on or off topic (not used often enough).


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## Dhamil6490 (Nov 3, 2018)

State park marinas in Ohio are closed. No opening date in sight.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

There is no denying that the C19 issue permeates most of boating right now, and it is somewhat difficult to remove C19 discussions in threads like this that are about C19 effects on a specific aspect of boating. 

The thread dedicated to C19 itself was closed, and we were asked by moderators to not create any new ones. So other threads like this drift off-topic at times as seemingly non thread-related posts are made. 

It is a thread's nature to drift at times, particularly when the actual topic is waiting for further input, and this hasn't been a problem in the past.

It would be a shame to just delete posts and disenfranchise some. It would be a great shame to make all threads stick only to narrow topics going forward.

Personally, I disagree with closing the C19 thread. I think it was poorly handled when it was open, but it really wasn't getting out of hand outside that aspect. There was a lot of good information in that thread that was genuinely helpful, if not eminently important. Even seeing viewpoints that one disagrees with is helpful in knowing the spectrum of how people are experiencing the issue, and rebutting those viewpoints helps hone one's own understanding of the issue.

Plus, closing it cost us some actual professionals on the front lines who have wandered off now.

But we can't start another C19 topic, regardless. The choices are to let some threads drift a bit, or decide to never allow threads drift at all, or attempt to strike a middle ground where SOME threads can drift, but others cannot. Is there a brave enough volunteer to make the latter decision?

Mark


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

I really do want to know what marinas are doing


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Sal Paradise said:


> I really do want to know what marinas are doing


I understand , so do I. I don't see the current way it's happening in this thread precludes or even prevents someone from posting . In fact they still continue to post about marinas ( see Ohio a few minutes ago) .

You suggested eliminating posts other than met your criteria. I can't agree with starting that precedent here. Feel free to skip the posts that you don't want to read, that's easier than censoring them for drift. Of course post must maintain social distancing ?, respect,?, and following the TOS?


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

I got the last open mooring at Vero Beach this morning.

I noticed the last 2 days that there are a LOT more cruising boats anchored at Lake Worth and at Fort Pierce than i have seen the last 4 yeats. I think they are in limbo with too early to go north and no other place to go.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

colemj said:


> ...The thread dedicated to C19 itself was closed, and we were asked by moderators to not create any new ones....


I must have missed that memo. So the guns and abortion are fair game in PWRG, but a global pandemic that directly affects our ability to sail is too sensitive? SMH


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

TakeFive said:


> I must have missed that memo. So the guns and abortion are fair game in PWRG, but a global pandemic that directly affects our ability to sail is too sensitive? SMH


It's the last post on the closed thread.

Mark


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

Yeah I think I agreed to that.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

colemj said:


> It's the last post on the closed thread.
> 
> Mark


Can't find it. Link?

I'm just a little surprised that this important topic is too hot to go in PWRG.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

TakeFive said:


> Can't find it. Link?
> 
> I'm just a little surprised that this important topic is too hot to go in PWRG.


We all were?


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

TakeFive said:


> Can't find it. Link?
> 
> I'm just a little surprised that this important topic is too hot to go in PWRG.


https://www.sailnet.com/forums/2051663514-post757.html

Mark


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

RI Governor extended several executive orders yesterday, including the one that mandates any non-resident entering the state to quarantine for 14 days. It was to expire next Thurs April 16 and now expires May 8. Four more weeks from now. 

It's beyond absurd. I don't know exactly how many boats in RI are owned by out of state residents, but half or more wouldn't surprise me. 

They still allow the marinas to work and launch boats. This is truly an environmental problem waiting to happen, not an angle to argue the point. I've honestly lost count of the number of boats I've seen sunk at the marina in my lifetime and that's when there were no restrictions on visiting. 

Mandating social distancing makes sense, that simply doesn't need to villainize other US citizens. RI residents are free to go to the marina and practice social distancing. This narrow provincial stuff needs to stop. RI gets nearly $4 billion in federal funding each year. Literally 99.7% of that funding is paid by people outside RI. 

Mandate distancing. This border war stuff is fueling the hysterical.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

If you want to feel unwelcome, just call an anchorage/marina in the florida keys.
...


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

This Connecticut executive order seems to allow marinas to operate.

https://patch.com/connecticut/greenwich/coronavirus-ct-essential-businesses-defined-lamonts-order

7. Services including

marinas and marine repair and service


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Sal Paradise said:


> This Connecticut executive order seems to allow marinas to operate.
> 
> https://patch.com/connecticut/greenwich/coronavirus-ct-essential-businesses-defined-lamonts-order
> 
> ...


If this is true... then I can drive to my boat in Stamford, CT recommission the engine do some truncated Spring Prep and sail to summer mooring in Old Lyme, CT and take an Uber back to get my car in Stamford.

When weather looks good... I think I will do it.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

SanderO said:


> If this is true... then I can drive to my boat in Stamford, CT recommission the engine do some truncated Spring Prep and sail to summer mooring in Old Lyme, CT and take an Uber back to get my car in Stamford.
> 
> When weather looks good... I think I will do it.


How do you get from mooring....dinghy?


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

So people are now allowed to recreational boat in Conn.? 
That will open the floodgates


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

chef2sail said:


> So people are now allowed to recreational boat in Conn.?
> That will open the floodgates


I have a tie up for my dink on the float/dock so I can either take my dink or use the launch if the launch operator is there. First time at this location.

I would like to do work on board that I can that is not a risk to me or others. Weather has turned cold and rain is coming so that will be a reason not to do the Spring prep.

MOST boats are stored on land and so they need to be launched and and mooring set and whatever marinas do to make their slips usable. I suspect there will be a back log for launching... and I don't expect to see lots of boats on the water for a long time.

I pretty sure that work in the yard will be under severe restriction for distancing. I am not going to be in a boat yard so this doesn't apply to me. But I can imagine the cabin fever will bring a lot of boaters to the yards to begin getting their boats ready.


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## dinosdad (Nov 19, 2010)

My boatyard in noank ct emailed me , they’re hoping to launch boats and set mooring gear pretty much on schedule, they start putting boats in usually mid May . They did say practice social distancing, only one person in the yard for working on a boat, they’re not letting it get too crowded , if they have to they’ll turn people away and request they come back . as its a hour drive I’ll take a day off on a weekday and get what I need to done , with the uncertainty of this season I’m only doing a abbreviated list of things probably five hours and they can put me in . It’s a narrow yard so last out is first in kinda thing , so I’ll be 3 or 4th to go in .


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

chef2sail said:


> So people are now allowed to recreational boat in Conn.?
> That will open the floodgates


I don't think we were ever prohibited.

I was at my marina last weekend. There were a few boats launched, but most everybody was still on the hard; that's pretty par for the course this time of year up here. The sure signs of spring were there though: there were people clearly working on their boats for the season (as was I), and marina had set up special dumpsters for shrink wrap (it gets recycled) and scrap wood.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

On Friday tried calling the boatyard where my boat is on the hard as to their status here on Long Island. Got voice mail asked for a call back. Heard nothing so far.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

mbianka said:


> On Friday tried calling the boatyard where my boat is on the hard as to their status here on Long Island. Got voice mail asked for a call back. Heard nothing so far.


Based on my years of boat ownership in the NE at this time of the year, that is normal.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

Don L said:


> Based on my years of boat ownership in the NE at this time of the year, that is normal.


I agree. I'll keep trying hoping to catch someone in the office or maybe just make a quick trip there. Last time it looked liked maybe some rodent might have nibbling at the lower corner of one of the lower hatch. I just rather not have to deal with an unwanted visitor before the boat getting splashed.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

At the end of last week, did NY close marinas or just public boat ramps. I saw a quick clip of something.


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## Pernalski (Jul 22, 2019)

I saw a quick blurb on NY closings as well, mainly focused on golf courses but also mentioned marinas. Ours appears to still be open for business. 
I went to my boat on Saturday and saw a boat being launched and 3 or 4 boats going in and out. Also saw a technician—from about 20’—installing an outdrive for a customer. Very few boats have been launched so far (I have about 5 empty slips on both sides of me) and it’s a quiet marina at any time of the year so social distancing is easily accomplished. The fuel dock remains a mystery but I’m sure they will want one boat at a time and no contact with the attendant.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

What I have found is that upon close inspection all NY laws and rules have grey areas and tons of wiggle room.

In this case, " Guidance from Empire State Development Corporation" is the most specific thing we have. So, the Gov. "orders" us to comply with ESD and they issue " Guidance". So is it law or guidance? That we are never really sure. But assuming it is hard and fast law, the guidance says ( see?) -

"Marine vessel repair and marinas are considered essential businesses, but only to support government and essential commercial operations."

and this-

"However, use of boat launches and marinas for recreational vessels is not considered essential"

https://spectrumlocalnews.com/nys/c...-marinas-feeling-impact-of-state-restrictions


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

Doesnt looking for “wiggle room” defeat the whole point and show one doesn't intend follow the rules?


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Don L said:


> Doesnt looking for "wiggle room" defeat the whole point and show one doesn't intend follow the rules?


Let's not go there.

You need to understand the rules in order to follow them. It has nothing to do with your intent to follow or violate them.

In this case, it sounds pretty clear that recreational boating is banned in NY.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

chef2sail said:


> Yes a lot of those countries have a population less than a remote county in Montana .
> 
> However I agree with you The problem is the control rests with indivigual states And they are driven by economic interests.


I am in Dominica, very serious lockdown, 70,000 pop.
Dominica is getting aid from China, Japan, Cuba, and Venezuela.

I have a reserved haul spot in Grenada, again very serious lock down. 125,000 pop. It also receives aid from China.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

I am in a different position from others, I’m on my boat in Dominica. If I haul the boat in Grenada as planned will I be able to get back in the fall? If I haul in Grenada and I can’t get to Newfoundland I have no place to live. So maybe I sail back to USA but then I need open marinas for pump out and services. For Unrelated reasons I can’t leave here until June 15, one would hope everything would return to normal by then but who knows. 

So anyway I’m following this thread to see how things develop. 

Maryland sounds down right hostile at the moment. 

Interesting times.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

From what I have read, Newfoundland lock down may last to November. At the very least I would expect a 14 day quarantine when entering Canada. Quarantine violations are big fines and up to a year in jail.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newf...hn-haggie-public-health-projections-1.5527357


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

hpeer said:


> I am in a different position from others, I'm on my boat in Dominica. If I haul the boat in Grenada as planned will I be able to get back in the fall? If I haul in Grenada and I can't get to Newfoundland I have no place to live. So maybe I sail back to USA but then I need open marinas for pump out and services. For Unrelated reasons I can't leave here until June 15, one would hope everything would return to normal by then but who knows.
> 
> So anyway I'm following this thread to see how things develop.
> 
> ...


Not sure if I would say Maryland is hostile. Maybe dead serious about protecting its citizens. The law also has teeth in it

Governor Hogan of Maryland , a Republican , is considered by most on both sides of the spectrum to be one of the most thoughtful, successful governors nationally. In a traditional democratic state Hogan won his elections by huge margins . He gets bipartisan support.

I think he is a leader in this fight on the epidemic, if that means he's seems hostile to those not from Maryland I rather he be the leader here than the clown from Georgia who said he didn't realize that the virus was communicable if you don't have symptoms as recently as two weeks ago.

Hogan will relax the laws when he believes the Maryland citizen as safe. BTW his laws are similar to Ca., NY, Washington State, Oregon, Nj, And many others. WhT you may see here is there is a good sized group of Chesapeake sailors posting what is happening. Note Virginia is a little less restrictive, but has less incidence so far of the virus, but we know that could be a result of lack of testing.

There are discussions being held right now to relax a little the ban on recreational boating, but Maryland still hasn't quite hit its peak of virus yet. Last week in a nursing home 10 miles from me 11 dead, 200 infected. Devastating.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

Arcb said:


> From what I have read, Newfoundland lock down may last to November. At the very least I would expect a 14 day quarantine when entering Canada. Quarantine violations are big fines and up to a year in jail.
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newf...hn-haggie-public-health-projections-1.5527357


LOL Newfoundland has lockdown every year from November to April.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

hpeer said:


> LOL Newfoundland has lockdown every year from November to April.


Buddy, unfortunately for cruisers such as you who are "out there"... you will have to respect the regulations which are for the benefit of all. We know sailors... especially those who leave and try to remain off the grid and do so with good results will at sometime need the "grid" to be found ashore. Unfortunately that grid is protect the "commons".

Unfortunately people have been too slow on the uptake of how virulent this Covid19 is... and with not other means to kill it... isolation, quarantine and social distancing is all we have at this moment.

Once everyone is tested and the carriers isolated completely... more social contact may be possible between non carriers.

You can run but you can't hide.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Arcb said:


> From what I have read, Newfoundland lock down may last to November. At the very least I would expect a 14 day quarantine when entering Canada. Quarantine violations are big fines and up to a year in jail.
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newf...hn-haggie-public-health-projections-1.5527357


Interesting indeed. I'm watching Newfoundland closely as well. My boat is there, but I'm in Ottawa. There's no way to get there right now.

But the latest official word from our marina is that they have not (yet) been ordered closed by provincial authorities. Of course, it's a moot point right now since there is still way too much snow on the ground, and the ice hasn't left the harbours.

My bet is that the NL government hasn't given recreational marinas any thought so far. Commercial fishing operations are still operational, and the vast majority of marine facilities are geared towards these operations, so it's possible recreational marinas will also be included.

I just fired off a specific question on this to the NL Covid-19 info email address. If I get a response I'll post it.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I am in Ottawa too. I am still going to work (transportation). My commute follows along the Rideau River. Every boat launch and marina along the way is closed and has been for a while. These are the signs posted.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Arcb said:


> *I am in Ottawa too. *I am still going to work (transportation). My commute follows along the Rideau River. Every boat launch and marina along the way is closed and has been for a while. These are the signs posted.


We're so close ... yet so far away .


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

Mike,

If I go it will be straight from here.


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

Here in CT our state parks remain open, although they were restricting access at a few of them this weekend as some of them were "full", i.e., at capacity if considering social distancing. Yesterday was unseasonable mild and beautiful, so we threw the bikes into the van and headed down to the biggest state park on the beach. The boardwalk was closed (the sign said it wasn't wide enough to accommodate proper social distancing), but there were a lot of people there, walking and biking. It was fairly easy to keep our distance from everyone as it is a very big place. Lots of signs all over the place prohibiting groups of more than 5, all of whom had to be family members.

On the way, we passed several golf courses, all of them open with people out there playing. That really surprised me. My daughter looked it up, and they are allowing the courses to open, but no caddies, and no sharing of golf carts.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

hpeer said:


> I am in a different position from others, I'm on my boat in Dominica. If I haul the boat in Grenada as planned will I be able to get back in the fall? If I haul in Grenada and I can't get to Newfoundland I have no place to live. So maybe I sail back to USA but then I need open marinas for pump out and services. For Unrelated reasons I can't leave here until June 15, one would hope everything would return to normal by then but who knows.
> 
> So anyway I'm following this thread to see how things develop.
> 
> ...


I've got to much time on my hands...just listened to a two hour pod cast of Governor Hogan ( MD) with questions from the citizens

Boiled down here's the reason he gave for the strict in his words exec order
Compared to other areas

1- Density- DC to Baltimore Areas include 5-8 million people, if you add Philly it becomes 12-15 million. He analyzed what happed in the NY metro area and believed density is what makes this spread more quickly through the population.

2- Mass transit- like NY there is a huge network for workers to move around and also be in contact within 6 ft. Many who work in this corridor take mass transit for work like NYC

3- Demographics. The corridor contains a large amount of international and minority residents which have shown and borne a disproportionate rate of the infections and dearth's

4- Outside intrusion- like NYC area, this corridor has 4...5 including Philly super major international airports. In addition Baltimore is the second largest port on the East Coast for shipping. This influx of people moving around the population meant lack of distancing

5- He believed he had to take drastic action as while most of the people practicing social distancing there were still to many who weren't or didn't get it. He talked about instances he had to get the state and local police to break up citizen parties of over 50. As a side note on another sailing forum this still is occurring. Recently a person sailed from the Bahamas , landed for fuel, then sailed up the Chesapeake to Annapolis, got off the boat and melted into the city with crew . . State police got wind and is making them quarantine 14 days. I don't blame the marina, but the selfishness of the individual not caring about his fellow humans and possibly contaminating them, not to mention not following the law because he didn't agree with it.

Hogan mentioned that his state is not like others like Wyoming, Alabama , Iowa where it may not require such strict executive orders. He wanted to prevent deaths and to get to a point where people could return to normal

To that end he mentioned it appeared we are approaching the apex in MD because of this strict executive order. He believe that it will be necessary to be logical to relax first the parts of the executive order which already has socially distancing built in. He mentioned boTing is that type of activity.

So there is hope, I was impressed with his candid logical approach And straightforward answering of the questions. It is refreshing . I do personally believe his decisions have been what's best for all of us, which makes it easier to believe they will work.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

I agree, you have too much time on your hands. 

Have you tried reading? There is a wonderful travel book from the 19th century by a middle aged lady adventurer. It’s just fantastic. Ida Pheiffer. Free from Guttenburg..

But here is another book that I recently read that educated me in practical ways. Really changed my out look. Thinking: Fast and Slow. Kahanaman got a Nobel in Economics for his work, he is a psychologist. I highly recommend to everyone.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

hpeer said:


> I agree, you have too much time on your hands.
> 
> Have you tried reading? There is a wonderful travel book from the 19th century by a middle aged lady adventurer. It's just fantastic. Ida Pheiffer. Free from Guttenburg..
> 
> But here is another book that I recently read that educated me in practical ways. Really changed my out look. Thinking: Fast and Slow. Kahanaman got a Nobel in Economics for his work, he is a psychologist. I highly recommend to everyone.


Thanks for the recommendations. I will attempt them after I finish the two I'm reading. At this rate next week?

Kahanamans book is one I've looked at before. One of my masters is in Pschology and his approach looks interesting. Thanks


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

I’m reading a very good but very detailed history of Civil War. He gets you to like people who then get killed. I have to keep putting it down.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

hpeer said:


> ...But here is another book that I recently read that educated me in practical ways. Really changed my out look. Thinking: Fast and Slow. Kahanaman got a Nobel in Economics for his work, he is a psychologist. I highly recommend to everyone.


I'm into the final chapters of this one (based on your recommendation). Definitely a good read. Great survey of current state of research into human behaviour. Similar to other books by researchers like Areily and Pinker. Highly recommend it in this time of rapid decisions being made on limited data.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

https://islipny.gov/community-and-s...affairs/981-marina-covid-19-closure-faqs/file

Marina FAQ's
 Why are the marinas closed?
o NY State Executive Order has directed all marinas (including those privately
owned) be closed for recreational purposes and Suffolk County is
supporting this directive. Due to the presence of high-touch surfaces
(especially metal surfaces) and close proximity to other boaters, the
marinas have been closed.
o NYS extended the Stay-at-Home order or New York State on Pause through
April 15th
. The marina closure is aimed at protecting public health and
ensuring all are complying with the stay-at-home order.
 Are other townships closing their marinas?
o Yes. We know that Brookhaven and Huntington have closed their facilities.
All other townships in Suffolk County are in the process of closing their
marinas as well.
 What about private marinas like yacht clubs?
o Those marinas are required to close as well for recreational purposes.
o If a marina supplies fuel, it will remain accessible for emergency vessels.
 Are the boat ramps closed as well?
o Yes. Town boat ramps are closed as well
 How long will marinas be closed?
o We don't have a specific date. Right now they are closed until further
notice in accordance with NYS Stay-at-Home regulations
Marina FAQ's (continued)
 What about people who want to visit the marina in their cars? Will they still be
able to access the marina?
o At this time we are not locking the gates or blocking access to the marina.
The marina closure is intended to limit boat access and limit congregation.
 My boat is already in the marina. Can I still access it?
o You can access your boat to check on it. However, please limit your access.
o The Town has an inventory of the boats in all marinas on the day of closure,
March 31st.
 What if I find a way to get my boat in the water? Can I dock it in my slip?
o No. Now that the marina is closed based on executive order you may not
dock your boat in your slip.
o If you do dock your boat after the closure, you may forfeit your right to rent
your slip in the future.
 How do I get my boat decals?
o At this time, since marinas are closed, we are not distributing boat decals.
o We will reassess this on or about April 15th in accordance with updates on
NY State on PAUSE regulations
 Since I can't use my boat slip, how do I get a refund?
o No decisions on refunds have been made to date.


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

chef2sail said:


> Thanks for the recommendations. I will attempt them after I finish the two I'm reading. At this rate next week?
> 
> Kahanamans book is one I've looked at before. One of my masters is in Pschology and his approach looks interesting. Thanks


For those who want to look up the book: the author's name is Kahneman (Daniel).


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> For those who want to look up the book: the author's name is Kahneman (Daniel).


MastundSchotbruck

Thank you for correcting my spelling.


----------



## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

hpeer said:


> MastundSchotbruck
> 
> Thank you for correcting my spelling.


'welcome


----------



## edward martin (Apr 11, 2020)

Where can I send it to, man? Every marina in my place seemed to be taking a long time to open.
You know that maybe the Covid virus outbreak is getting bigger and bigger. It makes us in trouble. If what you said is true, I would be happy to be able to participate. But I'm not sure who to send to and how to do, please guide me.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Sal Paradise said:


> ......
>  Since I can't use my boat slip, how do I get a refund?
> o No decisions on refunds have been made to date.


It will be interesting to see how this plays out.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

I don’t see that as an issue at all. The Marina didn’t impose the restrictions. Also we don’t really want those business to fail or where will I keep my boat. 

I’ll bet most boats aren’t in Mega marinas like the Safe Harbor ones. Im not trying to punish my marina for an act of god.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

chef2sail said:


> I don't see that as an issue at all. The Marina didn't impose the restrictions. Also we don't really want those business to fail or where will I keep my boat.
> 
> I'll bet most boats aren't in Mega marinas like the Safe Harbor ones. Im not trying to punish my marina for an act of god.


There should be a middle ground. Like all businesses, marinas have fixed costs and variable costs, and the latter come down when they're not operating.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Here in MD there are many times marinas get backed up launching boats. I dont remember anyone asking for rebates when that happens. Let’s see how long the recreational boating restriction stays on. I predict it will be relaxed some in about two weeks


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I belong to two private (non-sailing) clubs. One has reduced everyone's dues for April to a level that supports only the costs they're currently incurring. No one can use the facility for what promises to be about 2 months, longer if current restrictions extend. The other has annual dues and they've technically remained open. Food on takeout only and activities heavily socially distanced. I don't expect any adjustment from the latter, although, I've chosen not to attend. 

Marinas that collected for a service they can't provide are going to be an interesting issue, as I said. Clearly, they are unable to deliver access in many states, so there is arguably nothing to collect for. In others, the boats are tied up to the slip, the owners simply can't access them. I don't know of too many businesses where there clients are still sending in checks, even though the business stopped providing service. Marinas are caught in between.

I'm sure, if one couldn't access their apartment building due to State mandate, our States would very quickly require refunds, regardless of the occupants means. Many residential colleges, who were forced to close their dorms, are choking on that point right now.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

chef2sail said:


> Here in MD there are many times marinas get backed up launching boats. I dont remember anyone asking for rebates when that happens. Let's see how long the recreational boating restriction stays on. I predict it will be relaxed some in about two weeks


Seasonal launch delays are part of normal business, and I've never asked for any so-called rebate for routine delays. But if a ban on boating or a quarantine requirement imposed on out-of-state tenants cancels an entire season, some middle ground must be offered. I expect that there will be quite a bit of legal precedent that develops based on other prepaid seasonal property rentals in Maryland (beach houses, etc.), which are very analogous to marina slips. We may find clarification based on existing laws and regulations in Maryland.

Like you, I hope that cancelling the whole season for out-of-state boaters is not the case. I also believe that it is unlikely, but we've already seen a lot of supposedly things happen so far. My final slip payment is due May 1, and my willingness to pay may be influenced by how the marina reaches out to tenants in the meantime if the restrictions are continued. If the message is that I'll lose all my money with no middle ground or any credit toward future years, I'm not going to throw good money after bad. And if those are the terms, I will probably seek another marina for 2021.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

It’s still early in the game. The Executive order is what 2 weeks old. 
Like I said Hogan is constantly reassessing the situation. 
My contract is a year round one. They don’t kick us out in Nov .

Are you in the water yet in NJ? Can you leave it at the “ club “ until you can move it. 


There are lots of reason to reassess stay in a marina. I would check with others in Rock Hall how their marina owners are handling the situation. If I remember Right you guy has some very particular restrictive rules.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

I've just learned (via Hpeer) that my marina in Lewisporte, NL is officially closed due to the pandemic. They will review this status in two weeks. 

So no surprise really. And it's still too early anyway. But as of a few days ago the marina manager was still saying they planned to open once the snow and ice departed.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

chef2sail said:


> Are you in the water yet in NJ? Can you leave it at the " club " until you can move it. ...If I remember Right you guy has some very particular restrictive rules.


I'm not aware of any unusually restrictive rules at my marina.

PA does not appear to have banned recreational boating. Corinthian Yacht Club next door has at least one fleet of racing boats in the water, and they always use our club to launch them, so they must be launching boats when I'm not there. I haven't inquired whether I could leave my boat in the yard during the season. They have a big event in the yard every June for which they want all boats out, but this year may be different. However, there are a lot of Fox News junkies in the club who are still treating this as a Democratic hoax and partying in the boatyard every time I go to check on the boat. So they may go ahead and demand the boats be launched so they can hold their event. (I'm not asking right now because I suspect the officers are all cranky that the bar is closed.)

If Maryland extends their ban and/or quarantine, I could be in a position where I have to launch and can't take it to Maryland. I'd rather leave her on the hard if I can't go to Maryland.

But it's all early, so I'm not losing any sleep over this. I'm just imagining the possible scenarios so I can stay a step ahead.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

I was under the impression that you posted about your marina owner not allowing you to tie lines to the pilings during a potential storm....guess I misremembered😄


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

chef2sail said:


> I was under the impression that you posted about your marina owner not allowing you to tie lines to the pilings during a potential storm....guess I misremembered😄


Almost correct. He suggested not tying to the pilings. Some of us (including me) ignore that suggestion and tie to the pilings. I have TideMinders on my stern line to allow for tidal swings.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Whew...glad I’m not going completely forgetful. Hope you get some clarity on your situation. When safe I know for me it would do my head a world of good to get on the water. But only if safe for myself and others.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Hypeer as Billary said “I feel your pain”
Went into IGY St.Lucia and got a non 110v slip. It was the only one open other than the mega yachts ones. Next day all slips occupied and none available. They even were putting 50-60’ boats in the mega yacht slips. 4 days later a 110v slip opened and we moved. With effort was able to arrange haul so got tickets home. JetBlue had empty plane flying down with freight. Was 80% empty flying back to states. Was second to last flight out.
Haul scheduled for a week after flight. So arranged guardian and left. Insurance said guardian couldn’t move boat without submitting credentials and a rider. Guardian has RYA ocean and 100T so accepted by insurance but had to pay for rider to move boat 300 yards.
Then Grenada shut down entirely. No chance to fly down relaunch and move to Grenada. Insurance had us by the short hairs and juiced premium by thousands. Boats on the hard for the foreseeable future in St.Lucia 
Two days after boat hauled IGY locked the yards gate. No one allowed in except their security. Not even their yard workers. Fortunately guardian was able to hire locals to pressure wash, and do hurricane blocks and straps as yard wasn’t doing that. They were just hauling one after another knowing a lockdown was coming. Another big bill for me.
2 weeks after haul guardian able to get back in - batteries ok on solar/wind, sails off, and AC installed and plugged in. Cover going on ASAP but maybe awhile before that’s done. 
Due to covid I’m tens of thousands above usual expenses. I usually do all my decommissioning. If I stay in the Caribbean I’m in Grenada with no super high premium. My guardian usually stops by the boat bimonthly at short money.
Now faced with choices. 
When can I get back to St.Lucia? At present no flights. Word on the street is may not open up until next resort/cruise ship season. Maybe logical to go back down early 2021 to let things gear up again. If and when it does open what will the rest of the Caribbean look like? Was hoping to meander down the trades over next winter. Maybe as far as Bahamas then meander up Florida hitting chessie by late spring/early summer. Then take the stream to Halifax or if time doesn’t allow end up in Naragansett for a winter haul. Other choice is to straight shot to Newport and spend summer in that area. Regardless need to be either on hard for hurricane season or out of the zone. With Covid everything is out of synch. 
Safe Harbors says my prior yard at Barrington does have workers coming in. Still getting emails from them and following what Hinckley is doing. Thinking about prebooking at Hinckley for winter haul next year as I think fewer boats are going to snow bird as we’ve done until last year so there’s going to be much more pressure to find winter storage in RI in the future. Prefer Hinckley to Safe Harbors even over NEB. 
Many balls in the air. Much uncertainty has to which yards will still exist, what space will be available, what various governments will do, what various economies will look like and what ancillary services (restaurants etc.) will be open.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

chef2sail said:


> Whew...glad I'm not going completely forgetful. Hope you get some clarity on your situation. When safe I know for me it would do my head a world of good to get on the water. But only if safe for myself and others.


The directive is painting with a broad brush. But that's how laws often work. It's like in your case and I know in my case... I can get to my boat and either work on it... or take it out for a sail and not come close to anyone or raise risk of infection. My situation (and yours) are likely not the norm. Normal is boats in crowded boat yards and marinas.

I am not getting on the boat because of the Covid19 directive AND mostly because the weather stinks and I don't need to go for a day sail.... as nice as it can be. When the weather turns fair and the cabin fever is really getting to me I will consider going to the boat.

The weather is OK I guess for doing Spring prep. I don't even have much of that to do.

As I work (semi retired, self unemployed) from home... AND my wife works (at Monetefiore Medical Center satellite) my lock down is really not much of a change. What is a change is wearing PPE when doing one shopping run to a crazy under stocked supermarket a week and walking Jack once a day in the morning.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

outbound said:


> .....Cover going on ASAP but maybe awhile before that's done.


Curious what you do for a cover down there? Shrink wrap?



> Prefer Hinckley to Safe Harbors even over NEB.


I highly doubt that winter storage will be used up around the Bay, but your priorities are in order. I would use Hinkley myself, but they are inconvenient for me. I was at NEB many years back and it was a PITA to get there then. They really ticked me off, with a rip off billing. Turns out they wanted me to pay the time for their trainee and a supervisor to do a one person job. Double the quote. I swear they just tried to get away with it. I've been at more than one SH (former Brewers). They are each highly variable. I think the yard's General Manager is the variable, but access to competent yard employees too. Recall tons of turnover.

RI just issued an exec order that all customer facing employees must wear masks. RI residents are permitted on their boats, without restriction other than social distancing. Can't wait to see how the boat yards deal with that. The doofs can't keep from grinding their workboots into the deck, I can't imagine them having the discipline to wear a mask.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Issue is UV not rain/snow. Other problem is dust. Even without Sahara dust most yards aren’t paved. We take off our shoes at the bottom of the ladder and wipe our feet. When there’s water available even wash them before going below. Still most folks use sunbrella or equivalent. Of interest just about all yards require covers be removed if there’s a risk of high winds. So shrink wrap is rarely used. Also the enemy is mold and you want some ventilation +/or an AC/dehumidifier constantly running. Shrink wrap gives you a hot house effect and may tear in high winds.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

SanderO said:


> The directive is painting with a broad brush. But that's how laws often work. It's like in your case and I know in my case... I can get to my boat and either work on it... or take it out for a sail and not come close to anyone or raise risk of infection. My situation (and yours) are likely not the norm. Normal is boats in crowded boat yards and marinas.
> 
> I am not getting on the boat because of the Covid19 directive AND mostly because the weather stinks and I don't need to go for a day sail.... as nice as it can be. When the weather turns fair and the cabin fever is really getting to me I will consider going to the boat.
> 
> ...


We have had quite a few nice sailing days. Just this week two of them. We are not afraid to go out when the high is 60 and rage water temp high 40s but many here don't do that. We do have a propane heater on the boat for overnight, as the temp last night went to 41, but it's mostly been in the high 40s. Normally we'd be out by now. Haleakula is ready to go sans dinghy which we don't blow up and put on her davits till mid May.

While we would be distanced when sailing, we are following the Executive Order ( law) and practicing the STAY IN PLACE) rule. Our zip code ( MD publishes known cases that way) is second highest in state. While we are in a mostly rural area, a lot line Northport, the community spread has happened. Even though Hogan put controls in early this still happened. Many are essential Personel working in the military etc.

It definitely has changed our lives. My wife fears her job as a nurse working in a hospital may expose her despite her best efforts, plus the emotional toll of working there with the very sick people is compounding. Add that to stay in place, it's disheartening. We've done many house projects. HVe hundreds of flowers including tulips which she planted over the years but we aren't used to being immobile.

Grocery is my trips out into the community. I can only imagine how bad this would be if people hadn't followed the Executive Order. I guess because I see results directly I am passionate to the "rule breakers, the selfish looking for a loophole or work around to joyride on their boats, or the callous who don't beleive its that bad.

With so much reality negative on TV in pictures or press news and the President, it's also angering to see people criticizing the Stand At Home policies which are for the better good. The impact of them are obvious that that they work.

There will be plenty of time to finger point as we lead up to the next election. The choice being clear. This will either be 4 more years of the same or a new direction . Empathy will return or diviseness will continue. The recovery from this depends on good strong leadership....and THE TRUTH.

Right now it's keep people alive. We've made gains. I am willing to sacrifice my personal gratification of sailing if it means we save lives. Sailing will return, but not tomorrow. Governor Hogan is looking to open areas which inherently have distancing. Boating is one. Orioles games are not . Concerts are not.

Most people will come out of this changed. Hopefully for good concerning distancing. Stay Safe....hold the course....we will be able to come about soon....slowly.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

outbound said:


> Hypeer as Billary said "I feel your pain"
> Went into IGY St.Lucia and got a non 110v slip. It was the only one open other than the mega yachts ones. Next day all slips occupied and none available. They even were putting 50-60' boats in the mega yacht slips. 4 days later a 110v slip opened and we moved. With effort was able to arrange haul so got tickets home. JetBlue had empty plane flying down with freight. Was 80% empty flying back to states. Was second to last flight out.
> Haul scheduled for a week after flight. So arranged guardian and left. Insurance said guardian couldn't move boat without submitting credentials and a rider. Guardian has RYA ocean and 100T so accepted by insurance but had to pay for rider to move boat 300 yards.
> Then Grenada shut down entirely. No chance to fly down relaunch and move to Grenada. Insurance had us by the short hairs and juiced premium by thousands. Boats on the hard for the foreseeable future in St.Lucia
> ...


Our plan of the moment is to head back to the states and harbor hop to where ever is not in lockdown.

I've been looking at trends and trying to from an October/November perspective. My GUESS is that as things reopen the virus will reappear hear and there. Grenada has been mostly spared but could get the bug in earnest at any time in the future. Ditto almost any place you can think of.

The really HUGE planning problem is no one has a clue of the infection rate anywhere. Until a substantial portion of the herd has immunity, via exposure or vaccine, the herd is at risk. And that is just about everywhere.

So today's 11:45am plan is to be flexible. To run to where I can dodge hurricanes AND local shutdowns.

Ask me again in about 7 minutes, I might have a new plan by then. :ship-captain:

BTW: "Billary", good one!!!!!


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

hpeer said:


> ...
> 
> The really HUGE planning problem is no one has a clue of the infection rate anywhere. Until a substantial portion of the herd has immunity, via exposure or vaccine, the herd is at risk. And that is just about everywhere.
> .


The infection RATE is dependent on:

1. the number of people who are shedding the virus.
2. the number of people they are exposing.
3. the number of exposed who are "immune"

making people immune reduces spread to 0

isolation and separation mitigates rate of spread of the infection.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

SanderO said:


> The infection RATE is dependent on:
> 
> 1. the number of people who are shedding the virus.
> 2. the number of people they are exposing.
> ...


And we do not know the answer to any of those questions.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

SanderO said:


> The infection RATE is dependent on:
> 
> 1. the number of people who are shedding the virus.
> 2. the number of people they are exposing.
> ...


No one knows whether exposure will lead to immunity, or rather what level of immunity. It's very unlikely that exposure will provide perfect immunity.

Looking at other corona viruses like the common cold, we all know exposure doesn't lead to perfect immunity. I suspect this is how Covid-19 will pan out as well. But at this point it's all slightly informed speculation.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

hpeer said:


> And we do not know the answer to any of those questions.


No questions... this post was expository about viral spread.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

MikeOReilly said:


> No one knows whether exposure will lead to immunity, or rather what level of immunity. It's very unlikely that exposure will provide perfect immunity.
> 
> Looking at other corona viruses like the common cold, we all know exposure doesn't lead to perfect immunity. I suspect this is how Covid-19 will pan out as well. But at this point it's all slightly informed speculation.


We don't know how /why some people are immune and others not. Usually surviving a viral infections leaves the body with antibodies which will fight off a future infection.

Since there is no effective drug nor vaccine the way to mitigate is to not be exposed... that means isolation and separation from carriers who are shedding as much as possible.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

SanderO said:


> We don't know how /why some people are immune and others not. Usually surviving a viral infections leaves the body with antibodies which will fight off a future infection.
> 
> Since there is no effective drug nor vaccine the way to mitigate is to not be exposed... that means isolation and separation from carriers who are shedding as much as possible.


Exactly. But given our experience with other common corona viruses, some of which cause the "common cold", we know exposure never gives 100% immunity. So too with any vaccine. The best we can do is give our immune systems a leg-up in recognizing and fighting this virus.

Isolation is indeed the only way to be sure, but we can't do that forever. It's somewhat ironic that the areas which are most effective at "flattening the curve" are also the ones where this disease will likely rebound the hardest, and linger longer. But that is definitely better than everyone getting sick at one time and overwhelming our health care systems.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

Mike,

My understanding is that “social distancing” is also a technique used by strong arm governments to control the populace, make us more docile. I’m not saying this was planned, but that it would be exploited if possible.

Any thoughts?


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

hpeer said:


> Mike,
> 
> My understanding is that "social distancing" is also a technique used by strong arm governments to control the populace, make us more docile. I'm not saying this was planned, but that it would be exploited if possible.
> 
> Any thoughts?


What a unproductive statement/question. And arguably wrong. People in lock down are growing anxious and angrier not docile.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

outbound said:


> Issue is UV not rain/snow. .......Still most folks use sunbrella or equivalent. ......


Understood the purpose. I was thinking of my Fairclough cover and whether folks ship them to the islands. I doubt it. Do the locals make up anything custom for you, or are these essential tarps?


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

hpeer said:


> Mike,
> 
> My understanding is that "social distancing" is also a technique used by strong arm governments to control the populace, make us more docile. I'm not saying this was planned, but that it would be exploited if possible.
> 
> Any thoughts?


You're bad .

I'm definitely concerned by the lessons our governments are learning about how easy it is to remove our civil liberties. We already live in a time when authoritarian tenancies are on the rise in many of our so-called "free" societies. And perhaps worse still, we have a populace that seems increasingly willing to trade our privacy and freedoms for the promise of security, convenience, and more shinny bobbles.

So yeah... I'm concerned about how we're being herded and sentenced to a minor form of house arrest. It all makes sense. It's done out of the best of intentions.

But this is what scares me.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

MikeOReilly said:


> You're bad .
> 
> I'm definitely concerned by the lessons our governments are learning about how easy it is to remove our civil liberties. We already live in a time when authoritarian tenancies are on the rise in many of our so-called "free" societies. And perhaps worse still, we have a populace that seems increasingly willing to trade our privacy and freedoms for the promise of security, convenience, and more shinny bobbles.
> 
> ...


oh the irony.... "it" happens to be the most effective and in this case the only to stop the spread on a killer virus.

Got any suggestions?


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

SanderO said:


> oh the irony.... "it" happens to be the most effective and in this case the only to stop the spread on a killer virus.
> 
> Got any suggestions?


Agreed, it is ironic.

I think the only thing we can do right now is for all citizens to be extra vigilant that these temporary measures don't evolve into permanent features. A little bit of paranoia helps right now.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

They’re made locally. Generally don’t go down and over the toe rail. Just down to the rail. Had a fairclough for my psc34. Beautifully made. Even for a boat that small and in 2 pieces was heavy as all get out. Needed the bride to help me set it up. Always was windy or raining on the day we did it.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

MikeOReilly said:


> Agreed, it is ironic.
> 
> I think the only thing we can do right now is for all citizens to be extra vigilant that these temporary measures don't evolve into permanent features. A little bit of paranoia helps right now.


The thing is that we can not stop the virus. We have to adapt to it.

We have had a long run of good luck facing down nasty Diease and have forgotten the true nature of nature. Which is it goes to give a rats patoot about we humans, we are just another food source to exploit.

We got lazy and complacent and because the "safe" period lasted over to generations we forgot the reality.

Here is great book.

I need to read it again, I especially like the part about how we are just "meat robots."

Mother Nature is Trying to Kill You.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00DPM7XLO/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1

PS: I've actually seen a bot fly larvae in action, more than once.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

hpeer said:


> Mike,
> 
> My understanding is that "social distancing" is also a technique used by strong arm governments to control the populace, make us more docile. I'm not saying this was planned, but that it would be exploited if possible.
> 
> Any thoughts?


So it's distance or die
Which are you choosing?
Die but go down shouting about the government making you docile.
I doubt it


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

It pains me to write this as a retired MD but the major advances in controlling infectious disease hasn’t been medicines, vaccines nor sophisticated knowledge.
At one time puerperal fever was one of the major causes of death in women. Fix sterile obstetrical practice. Not drugs.
At one time infectious diarrhea was among the major causes of death. Cholera and the like. Fix clean water. Not drugs it’s still a major cause of death in much of the undeveloped world.
At one time plague killed a third of the population of Europe. Fix was rodent control. Appropriate disposal of waste food, rat terriers etc.
At one time TBc. was a major cause of respiratory deaths. Fix. Appropriate housing.Kill cows with infected milk.

We’ve worked to control our food supply. 
Prion disease are universally fatal. There is no treatment . Jacob creutzfield disease sucks. We killed all the cows with mad cow, educated hunters about wasting disease in elk and deer, screened eyes and other body parts before transplant. Now spongiform encephalitis is very rare in humans.
We screen our pigs. No recent swine flu.
The recent spade of epidemics and pandemics be it Ebola, swine flu, SARS, MERS or covid all relate to food supply. Be it pigs, monkeys, Bush meat, whatever.
Again the fix will not be medicine but rather implementing the food supply controls seen in the first world into the second and third world. 
Development is grossly uneven. You have non currency economies right next to highly mobile and densely packed populations.
Until that changes will folks dependent unsupervised hunting or very small family farming there will be trans species jumps in infectious agents. As long as they interact with a densely populated group that is internationally mobile you will have pandemics. 
‘Nuff said.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

Outbound,

Not to dismiss what you say but please consider this.



> Until that changes will folks dependent unsupervised hunting or very small family farming there will be trans species jumps in infectious agents.


We evolved as hunter gatherers, this is our genetic heritage.



> As long as they interact with a densely populated group that is internationally mobile you will have pandemics.
> 'Nuff said.


And this is new in just last few generations. Therein lies the problem.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

MikeOReilly said:


> Agreed, it is ironic.
> 
> I think the only thing we can do right now is for all citizens to be extra vigilant that these temporary measures don't evolve into permanent features. A little bit of paranoia helps right now.


But do you have "a little bit of paranoia?" these days, you would be the only one.

(And I sure hope we've exchanged enough notes that you understand I'm only joking. Humor makes quarantine endurable.)


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

hpeer said:


> Outbound,
> 
> ....
> 
> ...


Hunting and gathering is not genetic... it is a primitive living things survive.

Humans have evolved with science and technology and are not hunter gatherers.

Technonology and science is not in our genes either.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

SanderO said:


> Hunting and gathering is not genetic... it is a primitive living things survive.
> 
> Humans have evolved with science and technology and are not hunter gatherers.
> 
> Technonology and science is not in our genes either.


Sorry, that's not correct IMHO.

There are still many societies around the world which culture is that of a hunter gatherer. Africa, Australia interior, most of China and Russia east of the Urals, South America Pampas, Peruvian Andes, Native Alaskans .

Not everyone is high tech, in fact I'll be most are not,


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

chef2sail said:


> Sorry, that's not correct IMHO.
> 
> There are still many societies around the world which culture is that of a hunter gatherer. Africa, Australia interior, most of China and Russia east of the Urals, South America Pampas, Peruvian Andes, Native Alaskans .
> 
> Not everyone is high tech, in fact I'll be most are not,


culture is not coded in DNA


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

Culture is not, just my point. Eating small animals and local vegetables is.

Chef, I agree. What were you contesting? Confused.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

hpeer said:


> Culture is not, just my point. Eating small animals and local vegetables is.
> 
> Chef, I agree. What were you contesting? Confused.


eating small animals and vegetables is not coded in human DNA

"What does DNA do?

The DNA code contains instructions needed to make the proteins and molecules essential for our growth, development and health."


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Neither is technology 

I’m not going to go off on some tangent deciding what is coded in Hunans DNA. I’m not bright enough
😥🤡


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

chef2sail said:


> Neither is technology
> 
> I'm not going to go off on some tangent deciding what is coded in Hunans DNA. I'm not bright enough
> &#55357;&#56869;&#55358;&#56609;


You are one of the brightest persons on SN... DNA is still not understood.... but it seems to have coding for making proteins... and RNA and so forth.

I recommend a fabulous readable book

The Selfish Gene

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Selfish_Gene


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

You’re absolutely right. There’s a relatively new dichotomy. The juxtaposition of small plot agriculture, hyper local farming (think raising your own few animals) and hunting with another culture disenfranchised from meeting their own physical needs (food, water, shelter). One gets everything packaged. Other is directly responsible for keeping themselves fed, hydrated and sheltered. One goes to the gym or a hike for their exercise. The other gets more than enough exercise just staying alive. 
It’s this recent dichotomy with the addition of global travel that’s the set up.
Sure throughout recorded history there’s been the 1%ers. Be they chiefs, nobility, priests or warlords. However now it’s more than 20% of people (down to the local middle class in the first world) that travel. Add in the increased proximity of the poor in the world and the daily proximity of all classes in the developed world you have a multiplicity of sterile Petri dishes just waiting to be infected. Whereas in the past the traveling class had minimal physical contact outside their peers that’s no longer the case. Whereas it was unusual for people to travel more than 10m from home now it’s unusual to not do so. Whereas it was unusual to be within an arms length of a dozen people in a day now it’s unusual to not be. 
So social development isn’t uniform. The discrepancy has gotten dramatically enhanced in the last 50 years. One might even say within the last 20 years. But biology is biology. Pathogens haven’t changed their behavior. Epidemics (plague, cholera etc) have effected us in the past. What’s new is pandemics. Other than 1919 (which coincided with much more frequent transcontinental shipping and travel) name other pandemics. Now every few years a flu or other viral illness circles the world with lighting speed. Recently we’re seeing trans species jumps added into this mixture. Each animal has its own unique biome. There’s variation within members of a particular species but the choices are usually limited to that species. The increased frequency of trans species jumps evolving into epidemics and pandemics is a new phenomenon. Epidemiologists have been predicting this for several decades now. WHO included irrespective of current politics in the US. You may shoot the massager but the message is the same. Pandemics won’t be avoided by medical technology. They will be dramatic decreased by changes in social policy.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

We’re getting a fairly reasonable grasp of genetics (RNA/DNA chemistry). But we’re just started out on proteomics. Yes, there’s much to learn about gene modifiers, the on/off switches, poly gene interplay, non transcribed portions of the genome and such but the basics are being defined in large measure. Genetic engineering is coming to door shortly if it’s hasn’t already arrived. 

One disappointment I have with the current situation is the lack of basic understanding of scientific principles among the policy makers. Simple things like PCR testing v other mechanisms for being able to count numbers of infected people. Why rigorous trials should inform public pronouncements. How to interpret statistics.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

outbound said:


> You're absolutely right. There's a relatively new dichotomy. The juxtaposition of small plot agriculture, hyper local farming (think raising your own few animals) and hunting with another culture disenfranchised from meeting their own physical needs (food, water, shelter). One gets everything packaged. Other is directly responsible for keeping themselves fed, hydrated and sheltered. One goes to the gym or a hike for their exercise. The other gets more than enough exercise just staying alive.
> It's this recent dichotomy with the addition of global travel that's the set up.
> Sure throughout recorded history there's been the 1%ers. Be they chiefs, nobility, priests or warlords. However now it's more than 20% of people (down to the local middle class in the first world) that travel. Add in the increased proximity of the poor in the world and the daily proximity of all classes in the developed world you have a multiplicity of sterile Petri dishes just waiting to be infected. Whereas in the past the traveling class had minimal physical contact outside their peers that's no longer the case. Whereas it was unusual for people to travel more than 10m from home now it's unusual to not do so. Whereas it was unusual to be within an arms length of a dozen people in a day now it's unusual to not be.
> So social development isn't uniform. The discrepancy has gotten dramatically enhanced in the last 50 years. One might even say within the last 20 years. But biology is biology. Pathogens haven't changed their behavior. Epidemics (plague, cholera etc) have effected us in the past. What's new is pandemics. Other than 1919 (which coincided with much more frequent transcontinental shipping and travel) name other pandemics. Now every few years a flu or other viral illness circles the world with lighting speed. Recently we're seeing trans species jumps added into this mixture. Each animal has its own unique biome. There's variation within members of a particular species but the choices are usually limited to that species. The increased frequency of trans species jumps evolving into epidemics and pandemics is a new phenomenon. Epidemiologists have been predicting this for several decades now. WHO included irrespective of current politics in the US. You may shoot the massager but the message is the same. Pandemics won't be avoided by medical technology. They will be dramatic decreased by changes in social policy.


And I'd never shot the massager....I like that too much????
Damn spell check got you


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

hpeer said:


> The thing is that we can not stop the virus. We have to adapt to it.


Yes, I agree. I think this virus is now part of our ecosystem, much like other corona and influenza viruses. And like these, I doubt that exposure (or a vaccine) will provide perfect immunity. But we will find our equilibrium with it.

The whole exercise right now is prolonging the exposure rate so we all don't get it at once. I get that, and it makes sense. But Covid-19 is not the only thing that matters to people. And it's not a binary choice of "distance or die" (sorry Chef).

History (recent history) teaches us that those with power will try and extend it in times of crisis. I just ask that people not lose sight of some of the other important values we've fought so hard to achieve.



pdqaltair said:


> But do you have "a little bit of paranoia?" these days, you would be the only one.


:grin

Probably true. Cabin fever is setting in.

Canada's troubadour has a great song about that. Might be appropriate: Canol Road.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Right now, social distancing is the only thing so far that has protected many areas from exceeding medical capacities and therefore a huge jump in fatalities ( distance or die). 

There seems to be no other quick alternative , or should we sit around and debate the merits of social distancing. 
Yes in times of emergency sometimes solutions may conflict with rights. But if the emergency wanes so should those measures. To maintain peoples lives the social distancing was mandated. In NYC AND Maryland it appears to be blunting the spike of cases. 

If we just “ let it ride” as some wanted to do from the far right and far left we’d be faced with dead bodies piling up in the streets like in past pandemics.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

Can we please try and stay on the topic of marina status and openings?


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Some boatyards/marinas have gates which are normally locked and required a code to unlock I think this is to prevent non boat owners from access to the docks/boats.

Some marinas are no boat yards and provide no services (maybe a locked bathroom) and may or may not have a locked access to the docks.

A marina . boat yard which has no locked gate can on,y be "closed" by posting a notice and or sending one to the boaters who are using the facility.

Most of the boat yards (with service) that I am familiar with do not have locked perimeters. Anyone can drive on to their yard/lot.

So "opening" and "closing" is an elusive concept for sure. 

It appears that many marina and boat yard owners/management have issued notices / sent emails advising of what is permitted and what is not.

There appears to be some confusion related to go to, working on, and using a recreational boat and "social distancing". The object seems to be social distancing and so a state can simply announce that recreational boating is not permitted... and so no manner of social distancing would be acceptable. But there are live aboards at some of these facilities and then social distancing would apply.

As summer approaches there will be more clamoring to relax the Covid 19 restrictions at marinas and boat yards.

Relaxing the lock in will undoubtedly lead to more virus transmission.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I expect marinas (and most businesses) will require social distancing for a lengthy time, beyond the various shelter in place orders. At least between employees and clients. Possibly all or most of the summer. What needs to stop is the simple minded thought that responsible adults, from ones own state or another, can’t do so and avoid the spread of disease, while sailing. There already are irresponsible people out there and it’s still coming under control.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

So we are learning that people can be carriers and asymptomatic... And then unwittingly pass the virus to someone else when social distancing is relaxed. This would be a second wave of cases... and the only way to prevent that to occur would be universal testing. 

But how do we deal with people who are asymptomatic... (test positive)... keep them quarantined until a vaccine or treatment can knock out the virus in the asymptomatic population?

So as important as testing is... to identify who is a carrier... without a treatment there will be likely a lot of people who will be quarantined and remain in lock down. Is there any way to prevent asymptomatic carriers from transmitting the virus?

This is getting more complicated.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

If you stay 6ft away from those around you and wash your hands, before touching your face, we can keep down as much cross contamination as we are with healthy people sitting in their houses. I suspect, as NY did yesterday, wearing a mask to protect others, from you, is going to be the norm to return to a more open marina setting. Wear the mask from the parking lot to your boat. Done. These are smarter things than the brute force used to date. 

I’m suspicious of infection testing. One can be negative the day of the test, then infected a minute later, if they let their guard down. Anti-body/immunity testing maybe. More are going to be infected. No way to stop it. No way were sitting at home long enough for the last virus to die off.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Some things to think about. 
Every test has a false negative rate and a false positive rate. Several testing protocols are currently being used and more on the way. The false positive/negative rates for all is yet to be determined.

Every virus mutates. It’s believed the antigens targeted in currently being developed vaccines are preserved. However, isolated case reports where is wasn’t the case have already been reported. This means as with flu you may need to be vaccinated yearly and as with flu the vaccine maybe of limited efficacy. 

As stated in an earlier post medical inventions, although critically important, are not the total answer. Social policy changes must occur as well. 

Small boat sailing may flourish. You need a boat ramp where you need to social distance. Beyond that you’re on your own. Basketball, baseball, football (both types) and any team sport may suffer. Mom and pop cruising is social distancing. Big boat racing isn’t. Chartering, be it for sailing or fishing is problematic. 

My wife is a very social being. I’m not. I’m content to find a cove. Maybe jump in the water to swim or snorkel for exercise. Go into land every few weeks to provision but otherwise never see another soul. She’s the one who arranges cruiser cockpit evenings. 

I watch my grandkids. This has been going on long enough they’ve been forced to live like I do. Suspect the sociality of the below teenage group will be forever changed. Solitary sports and activities more the norm.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

On social distancing.
I spend the vast majority of my time alone. And have for years. I work from home and sail alone, with wife, or one buddy. I sometimes meat someone when I walk Jack and chat... 98% of the time not even do I socialize walking Jack. I do get within 6' when I buy anything in a bricks and mortar or take a meal (rare) in a restaurant. I io get close with the grand kids and they always seem to have a sniffle.
Wife is not a social butterfly but her work in a clinic brings her in close contact with others... and people who need medical care... people on the commuter train and I suppose her colleagues.
We both do not take the flue vaccine and neither of us has come down with any of the annual flues that come thru. I suffer from allergies but that seems to pass by late morning. I've never really been "sick" since I was a child.
I don't know whether I have a good immune system or not. How does one know?

It's better to err on the side of caution with this one.

+++
On Breathing Masks

Are we to believe that a breathing mask can stop a very small virus? Perhaps the way it works is that the virus "hangs out" on a small drop of moisture... like what you propel out your mouth / nose when you sneeze. The mask will "stop" the drop.

So are we to assume that almost ALL covid 19 hang out in small drops? Are these drops held suspended in air or do they drop to the ground? Do they evaporate? Why not? Does the virus just drop to the ground or get floaty and become suspended in air like smoke or dust?

To come down with Covid 19 you need to get the little critters into you lungs... some how. How do the critters get from say... your face to your lungs? (other than sucking them in with a breath of air?

Asymptomatic

You can be asymptomatic and apparently turn symptomatic for some reason? What would those reasons be? I presume asyms test positive.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

I work with a large number of employees daily and then have public interaction. This won’t change until retirement. My wife works with the public.

Isolating was more difficult for her. I can be like outbound and go months by myself, though I like to be able to talk....lol


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## Ninefingers (Oct 15, 2009)

All yacht clubs, marinas and boat ramps are locked and secured here. No visiting boats, no launching, no nothing. It's questionable whether people are allowed on Lake Ontario, nothing definitive, but chances are you will be told to head back to shore if you try to go paddle a kayak on one of the worlds largest lakes.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

SanderO said:


> So we are learning that people can be carriers and asymptomatic... And then unwittingly pass the virus to someone else when social distancing is relaxed. This would be a second wave of cases... and the only way to prevent that to occur would be universal testing.
> 
> But how do we deal with people who are asymptomatic... (test positive)... keep them quarantined until a vaccine or treatment can knock out the virus in the asymptomatic population?
> 
> ...


Maybe we will end up with color coded arm bands or micro chips, or retina scans..

Green - had virus and now has antibodies
Red - virus active
Orange - never had virus
Blue - had virus and still shows no antibodies
Purple - politician

Maybe they will set up special camps for each type.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

hpeer said:


> Maybe we will end up with color coded arm bands or micro chips, or retina scans..
> 
> Green - had virus and now has antibodies
> Red - virus active
> ...


Oh, but that could never happen here.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

This is known 
Aerosol (droplets) count for most transmission but simple breathing does release infectious viral particles. The 6’ is inadequate to prevent transmission via a sneeze or cough. Rather the probability of infection drops markly but not to zero.
Unlike droplet aerosol viral particles released by breathing or a procedure can remain in the air and infectious for a long time. Asymptomatics may not cough or sneeze but they do breathe and release infectious virions. 
You’ve heard about viability of virions on surfaces and this is another mode of transmission.
Pragmatically we double glove, mask and carry Lysol or chlorine wipes. We follow the same protocols taught us by our ID colleagues when entering/leaving the room of any pt. on isolation in the past.
We stay as far away from people and have contact as rarely as possible.
Personally I’d forget about going to a marina if I could. I’d forget about launching a a boat this season until some effective therapeutic is demonstrated by rigorous trial not just case reports.
But I’m in a high risk group. If I was 20 or thirty my thinking well might be different.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

I'm posting this for information and discussion. Sharing with you does not imply agreement by me:

https://www.boatingunited.org/take-action/protect-boating-access/

https://www.facebook.com/294097858750/posts/10157746354858751/?d=n


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

Outbound,

We are 67 and 69. In Dominica we are very safe, but we can’t spend the rest of our lives here. At some point we PERSONALLY will have to open up. I am as certain as can be we don’t have the virus. But how do we conduct our lives waiting for a virus that may or may not come? 

It would ALMOST make some sense for us to get infected in a time and place of our choosing. Some place where we have resources and a good nearby hospital with excess capacity. Just in case things turn bad. Then we could get this behind us. Otherwise we live our lives in constant fear of getting it and/or giving it. Herd immunity in a personal herd of 2, because we are introverts who live a mostly isolated life to start with. 

And I say “almost” because it’s not entirely clear that should we get the virus we will develop immunity. 

And each island, country, state, community sort of faces that same question on a social level that we do individually on a personal level. 

It’s a very interesting situation we find ourselves in.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

While we are wrong our salty paws over marinas closing.

As far as I know the CBP is only taking temps of immigrants. They then recommend 14 day quarantine. They may h doing something more with people showing symptoms, I don’t know. 

It would be interesting to hear from somebody who has travelled internationally recently. My only info comes from a buddy who flew back to the states after the international airports were reduced to 6. He had just spent weeks in France while it was on lockdown. Customs gave him a brief interview but did not take his temp, even as the thermometers lay in the work space. Today’s reality may be different.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Yup hypeer you’ve identified the problem. At all levels-country, state, caregiver, person in the absence of science you can’t make an informed decision. For now that’s just the reality. 

I remember when doing my pediatric rotation you would advise parents what was a “good “ age to have their kids hang out with a kid with one of the common pediatric infectious diseases and get it over with with a low likelihood of complications. Also seen orchitis in adult males (swollen painful balls -no fun) But worse is SSPE (subacute sclerosing pan encephalitis). 

With Covid some even in the absence of any respiratory symptoms get an encephalitis. That raises concerns that down the road they may be people who get serious progressive neurological disease. This was seen with 1918 flu- encephalitis lethargica. Or even now with measles sspe.

Wouldn’t be sanguine about getting infected at any age until more is known.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

Outbound,

Thanks for that. We are of a “certain age” to have those memories and a few other scary events. Some far more scary than this. 

I am appalled not only at our inability to gather data but also the way MSM slops meaningless numbers around and the public laps it up. Saying some country is reporting a certain number of cases is absolutely meaningless if you don’t know the population, number of cases tested, basis for doing a test, test error ratio and other things. 

I think the covid reporting should be given over to sports reporters. They at least understand statistics. 

Sorry, rant off. Thanks for your post.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

hpeer said:


> Outbound,
> 
> Thanks for that. We are of a "certain age" to have those memories and a few other scary events. Some far more scary than this.
> 
> ...


I think this is uncharted territory for the media. Experts are popping up all the time and the thrust is simple separation and wait for the infection rate to go way down... while treatments are explored.

Being 73 I am in the high risk age group. But I don't have any health problems identified as risk factors. My medical problems are all mechanical...teeth, knees and problems associated with spinal stenosis and a failed surgery with did nothing by damage my sciatic nerve. But for sure I don't have the strength and vigor I had 10 or 20 years ago.

There's not much that I do outside my apartment before Covid 19... marketing... stuff with the grand kids... going to performances at Lincoln Center and the boat. I still have to shop for food... and the boat is on hold as well as doing things with the grand kids. Lincoln center is shut. I am mostly bored.

This virus seems to take down some young and health people as well. I see those stories on the tele. And I see someone like Chris Cuomo, 50, who seems to be beating it.

I don't hear not see ambulances so there doesn't appear to be a spike in people falling gravely ill at home around here. I wait.

Society is on pause.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

outbound said:


> ....Personally I'd forget about going to a marina if I could. I'd forget about launching a a boat this season until some effective therapeutic is demonstrated by rigorous trial not just case reports.
> But I'm in a high risk group. If I was 20 or thirty my thinking well might be different.


I would never second guess anyone's personal risk assessment. That's exactly how I think this needs to evolve, rather than one size fits all. If one understands they are at undue risk, they should take the personal responsibility to isolate, distance or whatever necessary.

On the other hand, I think a marina is uniquely easy to socially distance. Especially, once off the dock.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

hpeer said:


> ....It would be interesting to hear from somebody who has travelled internationally recently. .....


My wife returned from Italy a few weeks ago. She had arrived in Venice before the outbreak. She never fell ill. Not there or here. On her way back, she genuinely worried about a forced isolation, in some uncomfortable location. We had already rented a house for her to isolate in for two weeks. I could not take the chance of being forcibly quarantined, by exposure.

When she arrived at customs, right in the middle of all this, they asked why she was in Italy. She answered and they waived her on. Free to roam, no instructions or restrictions. She retrieved her car and drove straight to the rented house, where she lived for 14 days, without any symptoms. Local health department did call her and she checked in daily.

I think one thing missing from the logic is the actual percentage likelihood that one will get sick, let alone go to the hospital, let alone perish. We are being discouraged or banned from marinas to lower the impact on hospitals, not because an individual's personal odds of getting sick, when properly socially distanced, are very high at all.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

SanderO said:


> I think this is uncharted territory for the media. Experts are popping up all the time and the thrust is simple separation and wait for the infection rate to go way down... while treatments are explored.
> 
> Being 73 I am in the high risk age group. But I don't have any health problems identified as risk factors. My medical problems are all mechanical...teeth, knees and problems associated with spinal stenosis and a failed surgery with did nothing by damage my sciatic nerve. But for sure I don't have the strength and vigor I had 10 or 20 years ago.
> 
> ...


SanderO,

Yes there is the odd young person that gets sick and dies. And that is blabbed all over the media and skews our perception of the virus. I was just reading a scholarly article on the NYC. Links below.

Yes you and I are in high risk categories. And younger folks are at some risk, but it is not exceptional.

EVENTUALLY we will all have to come out of our body holes. Not all at once. Let the young 'uns out first, we oldies need to be careful. Nursing homes need extra special care. But there is, IMHO, very little reason to keep healthy young folks from sailing and other such activities.

Some interesting reading here.

https://mobile.twitter.com/riskindan?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author

And some real data analysis here.

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.08.20057794v1.full.pdf


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## midwesterner (Dec 14, 2015)

I find it interesting that there are people who are complaining about being asked to stay home in quarantine. There are people who are complaining that the government is restricting our rights and freedom. Then, there are people saying that the concern is all a bunch of hype, and that Covid-19 is no worse than the flu.

This bit of history from St Louis, during the 1918 flu epidemic, shows how important this quarantine is. In 1918 St Louis instituted one of the strictest quarantine orders in the country, and experienced the lowest death rate of the top 10 US cities at that time. And, it was "just the flu".

https://www.stltoday.com/news/local...cle_52e5e46d-1f30-5f31-a706-786785692bb5.html


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## Sonicwoosh1 (Apr 17, 2020)

Without being an expert. Best advice is just to stay at home. I know how boring, and uninsteresting it gets, but please do your part and just stay at home for few weeks. The more people contribute, the quicker everything gets back to normal.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Interesting review on how hard it is to determine death rate per 100,000 for this illness. Problem is in the absence of testing a significant segment of your population you don’t know the denominator. This is especially true for covid. Also if folks are dying without serological confirmation the nominator is also a fuzzy number. 
Even with a bad flu season flu has a ~0.1 death rate. From all available information covid 10x higher at ~1 at lowest estimate . Your risk of dying is determined by two factors. Your risk of getting infected and your risk of dying if infected. Neither number is known at present. 
When an effective therapy and and vaccine comes along covid isn’t magically going to go away. Rather those numbers with change favorably. Then the question will be how much risk are you willing to assume and what changes in behavior are you willing to tolerate.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

NY just extended PAUSE which means no marina business activity for recreational boating until at least May 15. Marinas are not allowed to work on recreational boats. There seems to be no prohibition on working on your own boat so that might be a grey area. Launching ramps are also closed until May 15.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

For all the pronouncements of how easy it is to socially distance while boating and how one size does not have to fit all, we can blame our fellow boaters for raising the suspicion of the authorities. Every time I visited my boat club to check on the boat (about once a week for the past month), there were people in the yard sitting in lawn chairs in close proximity with each other, beer cans in hand, empty beer cans strewn around them on the ground, laughing, yelling, and generally acting drunk. All it takes is one group like this to ruin everyone's reputation. When boating is opened up, I would be willing to bet that you'll see people rafting up irresponsibly. Maybe not the people here, but enough to ruin it for the rest of us.

Right now we do need to be very concerned about leaders fomenting rebellion in the name of "liberation." It seems crazy, but before long we may have people suggesting that obeying a stay-at-home order is treason that should be punished by the death penalty. Oh wait...


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

TakeFive said:


> For all the pronouncements of how easy it is to socially distance while boating and how one size does not have to fit all, we can blame our fellow boaters for raising the suspicion of the authorities. Every time I visited my boat club to check on the boat (about once a week for the past month), there were people in the yard sitting in lawn chairs in close proximity with each other, beer cans in hand, empty beer cans strewn around them on the ground, laughing, yelling, and generally acting drunk. All it takes is one group like this to ruin everyone's reputation. When boating is opened up, I would be willing to bet that you'll see people rafting up irresponsibly. Maybe not the people here, but enough to ruin it for the rest of us.
> 
> Right now we do need to be very concerned about leaders fomenting rebellion in the name of "liberation." It seems crazy, but before long we may have people suggesting that obeying a stay-at-home order is treason that should be punished by the death penalty. Oh wait...


Totally agree.?.

By Hogan speech today I would bet another 2-4 weeks. He is seeing flattening and improvement. He wants to improve the testing . There are plenty of testing centers and machines.......but......there are shortages of swabs and the medium/ test tubes. OMG you'd have thought the feds would have the logistics of supplies solved . The best chance I think will be the antigen testing.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Sal Paradise said:


> NY just extended PAUSE which means no marina business activity for recreational boating until at least May 15. Marinas are not allowed to work on recreational boats. There seems to be no prohibition on working on your own boat so that might be a grey area. Launching ramps are also closed until May 15.


I watch a bit of Cuomo's press conferences on YouTube later in the day, particularly when I get a text about something interesting. Much of my family lives in NYC area.

Yesterday (Friday), he specifically mentioned marinas. The CT Governor called him to say they needed to coordinate, since CT expected all the NY boaters would just flood into CT. I'm not exactly sure how that would happen. Nevertheless, if CT was deciding to close their marinas to avoid it, I'm not sure there would be anything to bring up. Therefore, I'm only surmising the point was that NY should open it's marinas to keep it's residents inside it's own state.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

TakeFive said:


> For all the pronouncements of how easy it is to socially distance while boating and how one size does not have to fit all, we can blame our fellow boaters for raising the suspicion of the authorities. Every time I visited my boat club to check on the boat (about once a week for the past month), there were people in the yard sitting in lawn chairs in close proximity with each other, beer cans in hand, empty beer cans strewn around them on the ground, laughing, yelling, and generally acting drunk..........


I get it. There are irresponsible people in every group. Some people speed, some rob banks. We don't close all the roads and branches to prevent it. We arrest or fine the offenders, which I'd full support for social distancing too. I read the fine is $1000 in NY. Good idea.

Think about it this way. Those that would follow the rules in the marinas, are those that are sitting home right now. It's always bad policy to punish the compliant, because of the guilty, while the guilty roam free anyway.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

chef2sail said:


> The best chance I think will be the antigen testing.


I agree that this is the type of testing necessary, but we still do not have any proof that prior exposure provides immunity. Without that, it is Russian roulette.

Mark


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Weather here in southern NE is inspiring sailors to stay home. It snowed in parts of CT yesterday and is rainy and cold elsewhere. I suppose we have something to thank the weathergirl for... keeping us shut in. 

:ship-captain:


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> I watch a bit of Cuomo's press conferences on YouTube later in the day, particularly when I get a text about something interesting. Much of my family lives in NYC area.
> 
> Yesterday (Friday), he specifically mentioned marinas. The CT Governor called him to say they needed to coordinate, since CT expected all the NY boaters would just flood into CT. I'm not exactly sure how that would happen. Nevertheless, if CT was deciding to close their marinas to avoid it, I'm not sure there would be anything to bring up. Therefore, I'm only surmising the point was that NY should open it's marinas to keep it's residents inside it's own state.


With 630 deaths yesterday in NY compared to 65 in Ct, Cuomo should stay the course with STAY IN PLACE.

I strongly doubt that boaters
will flood Ct . That's an assumption based in no fact. If boaters aren't allowed in Marinas in NY it doesn't make sense they will flood Ct.

There will be differences between states.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

chef2sail said:


> With 630 deaths yesterday in NY compared to 65 in Ct, Cuomo should stay the course with STAY IN PLACE.
> 
> I strongly doubt that boaters
> will flood Ct . That's an assumption based in no fact. If boaters aren't allowed in Marinas in NY it doesn't make sense they will flood Ct.
> ...


Spoke to yard manager at the boatyard yesterday here in New York. They are not doing anything including splashing boats. Which means no boats will hit the water until May 15th at the earliest thanks to Cuomo. Moorings and docks just sitting there waiting for boats. Though I'm not sure if the nearby town marina has even put their docks in the water. Looks like boaters can say goodbye to being on the water for Memorial Day this year. Good news is I should be able to go and work on the boat in the boatyard. At least I'll have a water view.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

You can probably just go down and quietly prep your own boat, alone, while in a private yard. In my NY river town, I was one of the principal people involved in getting my town a large waterfront park, a 1000 ft bulkhead, a launch ramp. etc. The result was not what I expected. Instead of a quiet nautical park I got a sequel to the movie Porky's 2. Which has been going on for years now. Jets ski gangs hanging out on the docks, boaters throwing garbage bags out of their boats, "fisherman" ( I use the term loosely) hanging out drinking and vaping and throwing garbage 16 hours a day. Custom truck and car groups have a monopoly on one corner of the parking lot where they vape and then drag race on River Road. Once the pandemic restrictions hit we saw additional picnicking groups pushing tables together and having huge pot lucks as if nothing was going on. Looking across the park it looked like a festival. So we closed the riverfront park. . A few days later the governor closed all boat launches in NY. 

Oh, the howls of indignation from amateur epidemiologists/vapers/boaters on FB!! Oh the injustice and stupidity of the government!! The petitions are circulating. The griping continues. 

The boat launch is still closed. I asked the manager to pull the porta potties out and lock the gates. People cannot be trusted with their own safety. Even now they park along the river road, smoking and vaping and standing outside their cars. They cannot believe the stupidity of the authorities to deny them access to the free boat launch that they never contributed anything towards.

Thanks for indulging my rant. The point is all boat launches in NYS are closed to recreational boats.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

mbianka said:


> .... Looks like boaters can say goodbye to being on the water for Memorial Day this year. Good news is I should be able to go and work on the boat in the boatyard. At least I'll have a water view.


Mike there are hundreds if not thousands of boats in LIS / Southern New England in in-water winter store... my boat being one of the. The only impediment to my using the boat is the state directives / prohibitions and the weather. I suspect by Memorial Day the later will not be a barrier. And I would be surprised if the boating prohibition will be in effect at that time as well.

But sure there will be huge back logged of boats stored on the hard getting into the water, and some delays getting floating docks set up for use, perhaps delays in getting moorings set. But for the "early birds" or those in the water already... I suspect they will be sailing on Memorial Day. I expect to be.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Sal Paradise said:


> ......Once the pandemic restrictions hit we saw additional picnicking groups pushing tables together and having huge pot lucks as if nothing was going on. Looking across the park it looked like a festival. So we closed the riverfront park.


Why not fine the offenders a grand a piece, until it's clear, so the good guys don't have to pay for the bad guys? Those that don't care are just congregating somewhere else anyway, so the closure likely had no impact on the pandemic.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

Minnewaska said:


> Why not fine the offenders a grand a piece, until it's clear, so the good guys don't have to pay for the bad guys? Those that don't care are just congregating somewhere else anyway, so the closure likely had no impact on the pandemic.


Because what sounds simple in a forum post becomes terribly complex in real life, or at least in a small town in NY. The police dept has opinions, the judges, the town board is fighting, the manager and supervisor may not agree on even the fact that it is closed.And who is going to volunteer to fight with them all? All this animosity gets stirred, and the pot stirrers see their chance to make it a huge issue. And the political pressure will collapse on itself.

So, they closed the gates and put up signs. If anyone disobeys, jumps the fence, and goes in they will get fined.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Sal Paradise said:


> .....The police dept has opinions, the judges, the town board is fighting, the manager and supervisor may not agree on even the fact that it is closed.And who is going to volunteer to fight with them all?......


There is nothing to fight about, if you don't close the park, but enforce Cuomo's social distancing fine. $1,000. I watched his Press Conference, where he rolled it out, up from $500 previously. The State should fine the towns, if there is evidence of them failing to enforce, because the outcome is an undue burden on the innocent, with zero pandemic improvement. The crazies are just doing it elsewhere.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

I'm telling you - no one is willing to do that. Be it health reasons, or politics, or whatever. It was too hard to do. You'd have two police officers tied up down there all day long. 

I admit that professional park management is not the towns strongest point. 

They do have other town parks which are open and those are overcrowded - but I wanted to at least be slightly on topic and mention the boat launches. Actually, I wanted to mention the ingratitude and arrogance of the boating public in response to the closures.

I think some of the crazies are sitting home. It really isn't a question of punishing anyone. Its keeping people safe.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Sal Paradise said:


> I'm telling you - no one is willing to do that.......


I don't doubt you. I'm only pointing out (on topic) how it accomplished nothing for the pandemic, whatsoever, to close the boat ramps. The offenders went off to party elsewhere. If we cared about the pandemic, the locals would start fining the offenders big time.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Minnewaska said:


> I get it. There are irresponsible people in every group. Some people speed, some rob banks. We don't close all the roads and branches to prevent it...


Your examples are irrelevant. Speeding and robbing banks are not contagious. There may be innocent victims in these example, but it will stop there. The victims won't spread it to other victims, and another layer of victims of victims...



Minnewaska said:


> ...We don't close all the roads and branches to prevent it. We arrest or fine the offenders, which I'd full support for social distancing too. I read the fine is $1000 in NY. Good idea....





Minnewaska said:


> ...If we cared about the pandemic, the locals would start fining the offenders big time.


Fines may ultimately happen, but it must be the last resort. You seem to ignore how a fine is implemented. We have due process in this country, so a "ticket" is issued, more formally known as a summons to appear in court. Are we really ready to load up the courts with accused people who have refused to socially distance (and thus higher likelihood of being infected)? And think of the LEOs who have to approach the partiers to write up the ticket. Do we really want to expose them to this danger?

So because of the hazards of enforcement, prophylactic measures are instead taken, such as locking the gates of the parking lots and boat ramps, removing the Porta-Pottis, etc. That's the first line of defense. All of this is to protect the LEOs, as well as the general public.

Just follow whatever emergency orders are in place. It will save lives and allow us to return to normal life sooner.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

SanderO said:


> Mike there are hundreds if not thousands of boats in LIS / Southern New England in in-water winter store... my boat being one of the. The only impediment to my using the boat is the state directives / prohibitions and the weather. I suspect by Memorial Day the later will not be a barrier. And I would be surprised if the boating prohibition will be in effect at that time as well.
> 
> But sure there will be huge back logged of boats stored on the hard getting into the water, and some delays getting floating docks set up for use, perhaps delays in getting moorings set. But for the "early birds" or those in the water already... I suspect they will be sailing on Memorial Day. I expect to be.


Time will tell. I hope that is the case. I've got a few boats in front of mine but, they could be splashed in an afternoon once things open up. My mooring is already out there waiting. Meantime I'm sewing a new sail cover back at the house. I left the mast up this year so I could check the fit of the new cover while the boat is on the hard. Glad I did because it means the boat just has to be launched when things open again.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

Minnewaska said:


> I don't doubt you. I'm only pointing out (on topic) how it accomplished nothing for the pandemic, whatsoever, to close the boat ramps. The offenders went off to party elsewhere. If we cared about the pandemic, the locals would start fining the offenders big time.


I don't know where they go,or what they do. I think its reasonable to close it, in light of what is an imperfect society.

It is interesting with the boat launches; I fought for that boat launch, I contributed heavily in my time to make it happen - and yet I realize that right now it has to be closed. And maybe a week later the governor ordered them all closed. And it feels like the dregs of society ( not you - boaters in my community) don't understand it at all. Its like a trickling down of information.

It sucks. I will try to put it back on a boating level. I have a Cat 22 on a trailer. I have used that launch and dock many times. My main focus this year will be LIS, going along with a good friend on his much larger boat. And that - that brings me to the question of what will happen in Connecticut, which is why I started this thread.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

mbianka said:


> Time will tell. I hope that is the case. I've got a few boats in front of mine but, they could be splashed in an afternoon once things open up. My mooring is already out there waiting. Meantime I'm sewing a new sail cover back at the house. I left the mast up this year so I could check the fit of the new cover while the boat is on the hard. Glad I did because it means the boat just has to be launched when things open again.


Give yourself some extra room on the cover in case 1 - you ever buy a new sail as it's so stiff it uses mor volume 2- the sail doesn't always lay the same.

First one we made a long time ago we used the plastic twist locks. They weren't durable So we switched to the metal. One hand closure

https://www.sailrite.com/Common-Sense-2-Prong-Stud-Key-CC

https://www.sailrite.com/Common-Sense-Fastener-Eyelet-Key-AA

We also put reinforced leather like Stamoid on the top edge and on the top where the sharp headboard sits in a pocket. We sewed it underneath the sumbrella. It reenforced any of the " rub points".

https://www.sailrite.com/Stamoid-Top-12-64oz-Royal-Blue-59-Vinyl-Fabric


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

TakeFive said:


> .....Fines may ultimately happen, but it must be the last resort. You seem to ignore how a fine is implemented. We have due process in this country, so a "ticket" is issued, more formally known as a summons to appear in court. Are we really ready to load up the courts with accused people who have refused to socially distance (and thus higher likelihood of being infected)? And think of the LEOs who have to approach the partiers to write up the ticket. Do we really want to expose them to this danger?......


The Governor of NY is literally pleading with local law enforcement to do so in his press conferences.

I don't think implementation needs to be so pedantic in all forms. No one wants the money, they want the compliance. That's another Cuomo quote.

The way you do this is to identify a major routine place of non-compliance, like SO identified. You form a team of LEOs in proper PPE and call the media. You publicly and noticeable round up all these people and issue the summons. It plays on the news and the front page. There is no need to process them through the courts anytime soon. It will simply weigh on their heads they will owe a grand. Then you do it again, and again, until the word spreads that the innocent are no longer willing to endure the punishment for the guilty. You make a very loud and notable example of some to be sure everyone hears you. Otherwise, frankly, it's obvious to assume they are just going elsewhere and continuing their exposure.


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

Sal Paradise said:


> that brings me to the question of what will happen in Connecticut, which is why I started this thread.


As of now, it's business as usual, except: the office to the marina is closed to the public; if you have your boat stored indoors, you have to make an appointment to get in so that the staff can practice social distancing; and, all must practice social distancing in the yard while prepping your boat for launch.

Boats are being launched. I counted five boats in the water, but it's still very early here. I didn't go to the boat last weekend, but the weekend before that, there were a number of people in the yard, removing the covers from their boats and prepping for launch. The weather is lousy today (cold, rainy/snowy), but tomorrow is supposed to be sunny and close to 60, and I'm planning on taking a ride down there to get some work done. It's still too cold at night (dropping below freezing) so I can't treat some engine rust issues (needs to be above 50 degrees for 24 hours), and I don't want to take the shrink wrap off yet. I can't wash and wax the boat yet, but there are a couple of projects that I can do.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

chef2sail said:


> Give yourself some extra room on the cover in case 1 - you ever buy a new sail as it's so stiff it uses mor volume 2- the sail doesn't always lay the same.
> 
> First one we made a long time ago we used the plastic twist locks. They weren't durable So we switched to the metal. One hand closure
> 
> ...


I'm building one based on the Sailrite Sail Pack. I've taken the measurements and will be using common sense fasteners along the bottom so I can separate the cover and also allow for drainage. A nice rainy day today makes it good to start laying out the pattern for the port side cover after a measuring faux pas on my first attempt.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Its hard to beat simple hook n loop


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

Sal Paradise said:


> I don't know where they go,or what they do. I think its reasonable to close it, in light of what is an imperfect society.
> 
> It is interesting with the boat launches; I fought for that boat launch, I contributed heavily in my time to make it happen - and yet I realize that right now it has to be closed. And maybe a week later the governor ordered them all closed. And it feels like the dregs of society ( not you - boaters in my community) don't understand it at all. Its like a trickling down of information.
> 
> It sucks. I will try to put it back on a boating level. I have a Cat 22 on a trailer. I have used that launch and dock many times. My main focus this year will be LIS, going along with a good friend on his much larger boat. And that - that brings me to the question of what will happen in Connecticut, which is why I started this thread.


Even NY Governor Andrew Cuomo's brother Chris a confirmed COVID 19 case was caught violating Quarantine last week with several people in East Hampton. Who knows what drastic enforcement actions our political leaders will come up with for the local waters. I pretty much sail solo on 30 foot Catboat so I should not be an issue. But, I have often in the past seen five or six fellows with fishing rods on a 24 foot Bayliner or others on an over crowded rowboat heading out. They would not be practicing social distance protocols these days. Will Governors in hot spot areas try and keep all boaters from plying the waters. Ordering State and local marine police to enforce the ban or maybe asking Federal help from the Coast Guard? I would not rule anything out just yet.


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## BarryL (Aug 21, 2003)

Hey,

I have tried to stay out of this but I do have a few points I would like to make.

My boat is on the hard. MBIANKA and I are in the same harbor. Since the sailing season is so short I like to have my boat ready ASAP. This year I got the bottom sanded in early March. I wanted to get the topsides and decks washed / waxed this week, and bottom paint done as well. My goal was to have the boat launched next week. Well, that is not going to happen. Too cold for bottom paint, yard closed too (as you know).

My complaint is that 'boating' is not allowed. To me, that doesn't make any sense. I'm allowed outside to walk, run, bicycle, and get fresh air and sunshine. Too many people were going to the beach, so the beaches have been closed. I understand that. I'm not happy about it, but I understand and I'm OK with it. I don't understand why I can't paddle a kayak, or sit on my boat on my mooring. I can just as easily be socially distant on my boat as I can in my house. What is the harm in that? I understand that a group of 4 guys should not go sailing. What about a couple living together or a family? What is the harm in allowing that? Yes, some people might abuse things, but that is not a good reason to prevent ANYONE from doing an activity. I have seen people bicycling close together, why is bicycling allowed?

Personally I think that if the 'government' comes up with more unreasonable rules there is going to be more demonstrations against the rules and more people will ignore the rules. IMHO some rules make sense and others seem just to be mean. Like in Michigan where you are not allowed to buy seeds or paint in a store that sells those items. Once the demonstrations become popular and people realize the power they have, the government will be powerless to stop it.

Just my $.02

Barry


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

BarryL said:


> Hey,
> 
> I have tried to stay out of this but I do have a few points I would like to make.
> 
> ...


If the gov guidelines were more detailed... and explain do's and don't's.

Your examples seem fine to me. I have posted that I can get to, then on, then sail, then get back to shore with my dink and to my car on home without encountering a soul... no marinas. The only possible close encounter could be at the dinghy dock... but I would have to wait until it is empty before landing. That would be an extremely rare occurrence. I usually sail with my wife... who is not inclined to sail in corona times... or my sailing buddy which would be a violation of social distancing guidelines. Since I enjoy and prefer their company and help... so it is also "social"... just sailing alone for the sake of sailing has little appeal. I could, I suppose deliver the boat from winter storage to summer mooring - a job. But that too, can wait.. Weather sux now so this is moot.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

BarryL said:


> Hey,
> 
> I have tried to stay out of this but I do have a few points I would like to make.
> 
> ...


This is much like the argument at my local boat launch. You cannot stop the group of 10 on a Bayliner because they will say they are all one family. Laws don't work specific to each individual family. They have to apply evenly. Of course one guy alone on a boat can't transmit the virus. Everyone knows that. The answer is too obvious to even be written.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Sal Paradise said:


> ....You cannot stop the group of 10 on a Bayliner because they will say they are all one family......


Identification please........ if all your addresses don't match, you all get the $1,000 Cuomo fine. Although, I'd be happy to simply ban Bayliners.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

This thread is in serious need of a title change


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Testing
There’s multiple different types of tests but basically break down to two classes.
Test for the infectious agent. Here you look for the bug itself. In the old days you grew the bug. Often by infecting an animal or growing it in a medium. Now a days especially for viruses you get a sample add stuff that multiplies the genetic material of the bug (in this case RNA). You may only multiply some of the genetic material but that’s ok as long as it identifies the bug. Then place that material on a gel. Place a current across the gel causing it to migrant. It gives you an electrophoresis pattern which is specific for the bug in question. That’s PCR testing. It’s highly accurate with very few false positives. There maybe false negatives due to technique but that’s rare if done right. It’s slow as it takes time to do the multiplying and electrophoresis. It’s expensive compared to other types of testing.
Other way to look for the hosts response not the bug. The host will make antibodies to specific antigens seen only on the bug in question. You make a label that latches on to that antigen or antigen antibody complex or antibody. You then see how much if anything was labeled. That’s great as it allows point of service testing. It’s cheaper and quicker. But depending upon how it’s done and the host you can get false positives and negatives. If it’s dependent upon host response if the host didn’t respond, has yet to respond or did respond and now is no longer responding and whose memory T cells may be primed will test negative or someone who cleared the infection or is just staring out may also test negative. If the antigens are shared with other bugs or the antibodies cross react and were produced by exposure to other bugs you can get false positives.
I’m not boarded in ID. Nor do I have knowledge of the false +/- rates of current testing protocols. I think different protocols are being used for point of service. PCR is PCR to my understanding. One would think WHO is collecting that information. Think it’s incredibly stupid to antagonize them at a point when that information would greatly inform decisions about when and how to lift restrictions.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

Outbound,

Elsewhere I've read Singapore is considering using cruise ships to house migrant workers who have had the virus.

Quote from Bloomberg story



> The city-state is studying using cruise ships to temporarily house foreign workers who have recovered from the coronavirus and tested negative, as it tries to limit the spread after cases soared in the last week.


Any clue what that's about? Why would you segregate people who have had the clue and test negative?

If their is a good reason to fear they may still be infecting people then this could go on for a long time.

Keeping marinas and a whole lot else closed.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

Don L said:


> This thread is in serious need of a title change


Yeah you are right - I am waiting for more marina status reports.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

Minnewaska said:


> Identification please........ if all your addresses don't match, you all get the $1,000 Cuomo fine. Although, I'd be happy to simply ban Bayliners.
> 
> Coronavirus: New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo raises fines for violating social distancing rules - YouTube


They claim they are all sheltering together until this blows over.Every one has 9 witnesses. Maybe your fictional police detective can supena their cell phone records and put together an animation for the judge of where they all have been for the past month. Proving!! Beyond a doubt that they are lying.


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

Just out: An article in the Washington post entitled

"N.Y., N.J., Connecticut will jointly allow marinas and boatyards to reopen"

It is probably behind a paywall but you may be able to see it if you haven't exhausted the number of free articles you can read for free every month. 

I don't want to copy it, it is not mine, but here is a tidbit: 

"The three states’ governors announced Saturday that the maritime activities would be permitted as long as people adhere to “strict” social distancing and sanitization procedures. Watercraft rentals are still prohibited and restaurants near these sites must open only for takeout and delivery."

Also, before everybody gets too giddy: "Although boaters in New Jersey will now have access to their vessels, the state remains under a stay-at-home mandate."


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> Just out: An article in the Washington post entitled
> 
> "N.Y., N.J., Connecticut will jointly allow marinas and boatyards to reopen"
> 
> ...


Does it say anything about two people from different households on the same boat?


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

With Connecticut and New Jersey, Governor Andrew Cuomo announced that marinas and boatyards in New York will be allowed to reopen.

In order stop the spread of COVID-19 and increase social distancing, they were closed.

Marinas and boatyards won't be completely open. The governor's office states they will be, "open for personal use as long as strict social distancing and sanitization protocols are followed. Chartered watercraft services or rentals will not be allowed, and restaurant activity at these sites must be limited to take-out or delivery only."

In a media release Cuomo stated:boatyards
items.[0].image.alt
Photo by: WKBW photographer
By: Jeff RusackPosted at 7:45 PM, Apr 18, 2020 and last updated 7:45 PM, Apr 18, 2020
BUFFALO, N.Y. (WKBW) - With Connecticut and New Jersey, Governor Andrew Cuomo announced that marinas and boatyards in New York will be allowed to reopen.

In order stop the spread of COVID-19 and increase social distancing, they were closed.

Marinas and boatyards won't be completely open. The governor's office states they will be, "open for personal use as long as strict social distancing and sanitization protocols are followed. Chartered watercraft services or rentals will not be allowed, and restaurant activity at these sites must be limited to take-out or delivery only."

In a media release Cuomo stated

"Aligning our polices in this area is another example of that strong partnership, and will help ensure there is no confusion or 'state shopping' when it comes to marinas and boatyards."


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Sal Paradise said:


> They claim they are all sheltering together until this blows over.Every one has 9 witnesses. Maybe your fictional police detective can supena their cell phone records and put together an animation for the judge of where they all have been for the past month. Proving!! Beyond a doubt that they are lying.


This does not need to be as hard as you imagine. You pull a few people over for speeding, make your presence known and everyone else around them starts slowing down. People spread the word on speed traps. You never know if the car you saw with flashing red lights got a ticket, let alone convicted.

In your specific example, I'd have the police pass a form. You sign a pre-written statement to the police, where you fill in the address you've been staying for the past 14 days. Right above your signature in large bold font, is a perjury warning, which describes the few years in prison for lying. There is always one in the crowd that isn't that tough.

Frankly, it's an abuse of power and unjust for the king to slaughter the entire village, looking for one bad guy. Our leaders and police need to be better than that.

Seeing Cuomo's new light on marinas, local municipalities need to start using their noggins, not just their power.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

So whiny boaters “need” to go to their boats to get them into the water.

There is no way to justify this in the current situation other than selflessness. I am sure there will now be continued excesses “buts” on this, along with others threads, about why it is safe to do this “because .....” . But in in the end it is nothing but putting your want to boating over everything and everyone.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

It's far from only boating. It's returning to a new normal, which is not going to be lock down forever. It will require social distancing measures for perhaps as much as the next year, but not hiding in a cave. No one believes staying in this locked down essential vs. nonessential state forever will work to extinguish the virus. Look at how many are out and about now already. Only slows it down. We can come up with more intelligent ways to slow it down, without closing everything down. I suspect stadiums, theaters, maybe even restaurants will be closed for much longer than marinas, parks and boat ramps as well all get better at distancing protocols. 

Be smart. By all means, if you are personally vulnerable, stay isolated. Doesn't make sense that everyone does. 

Why do people have to make their point by using derogatory terms, like whining. You're welcome to disagree, without being disagreeable.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

One of my observations on the water is that boating has a huge social component.. that is... most of it is NOT single handing or sailing with only immediate family. There are boats that are partnerships... there is racing with small crews... and things like rafts ups. Many people take guests on board as well. I see very very few cockpits with one person. In boat yards I have seen many people working together on Spring Prep... more so than someone working alone. My very first boating experience was helping a friend with Spring prep in the boat yard. And I note the collegiality among boat people which I found positive.

I believe the most recent statement for boating makes all of the above not permissible.

I expect many boaters will ignore the still in place social distancing.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

So, NY marinas are opening... This will be interesting to see if there is any associated uptick in Covid-19 cases related to this move. I remain of the opinion that boating, and most particularly cruising, can be done in compliance with physical distancing needs. But it will depend on how individuals behave. 

Hopefully our provincial governments here in Canada will be watching. Show it can be done right and I assume (hope) we will follow suit. Of course, if there is a significant uptick in infections related to this decision, our marinas probably won't open for months.

... so do this right NYers!


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

MikeOReilly said:


> So, NY marinas are opening... This will be interesting to see if there is any associated uptick in Covid-19 cases related to this move. I remain of the opinion that boating, and most particularly cruising, can be done in compliance with physical distancing needs. But it will depend on how individuals behave.
> 
> Hopefully our provincial governments here in Canada will be watching. Show it can be done right and I assume (hope) we will follow suit. Of course, if there is a significant uptick in infections related to this decision, our marinas probably won't open for months.
> 
> ... so do this right NYers!


I doubt there is much chance of an uptick in new cases by opening the Marinas. Getting the boats in the water by yard personnel is not like people working in a factory or office. In my yard it's one guy on the Travel Lift one guy at each end of the boat handling the lines. Well beyond social distance guidelines. It's still a little too cold in the air and water now for people to spend much time on their boats so you won't have the crowds of summer on the dock at this point. Plus with the new requirement that people need to wear masks when outside their abodes will also limit the chances of the virus spreading. I'd be more concerned about those living in hot spots like New York City where mass transportation like buses and Subways make social distancing impossible. Bad times to be a city dweller.


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## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

Except for about a week in March, N.J. Marinas were not closed. The guidelines were pretty standard. 6' distancing, no guests on board, only people living in the same household. The marina store is open, but you have to pre-order and items will be dropped outside to your car or at your boat. It's been cold, windy ( 70 mph last week) and rainy here so I haven't felt the need to pull the winter cover off yet.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

mbianka said:


> I doubt there is much chance of an uptick in new cases by opening the Marinas. Getting the boats in the water by yard personnel is not like people working in a factory or office. In my yard it's one guy on the Travel Lift one guy at each end of the boat handling the lines. Well beyond social distance guidelines. It's still a little too cold in the air and water now for people to spend much time on their boats so you won't have the crowds of summer on the dock at this point. Plus with the new requirement that people need to wear masks when outside their abodes will also limit the chances of the virus spreading. I'd be more concerned about those living in hot spots like New York City where mass transportation like buses and Subways make social distancing impossible. Bad times to be a city dweller.


I agree. I've always thought it was an unnecessary restriction. But I do understand why it was ordered, and why Canadian recreational marinas remain closed.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

If you look at google earth in summer you will see there are 10s of thousands of moored boats. And most of them get to their boat on a launch. Some take a dink. Launches violate the social distancing standards... unless perhaps 2 or 3 people are on the launch. This is possible.. But things like Old Port Launch in BI or Newport would not meet social distancing requirement,,, neither would the Seymours launch in Northport which I am familiar with.

And while many SN sailors are sailing single or with family many of them race and taking guests is a normal part of their sailing experience. Both of these are no no's

I will try to induce wife to come with me to the boat to recommission the engine and fill the tanks with water.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

I certainly can't speak to any specific place Sander, but if we can maintain physical distancing in grocery stores, then clearly it is possible to do it at launch ramps. Whether people do it or not will depend on individual responsibility and sensibility.

Most people seem to be getting the message -- at least to my observation. But your situation may indeed be different.

This is where I think one of the more interesting post-pandemic studies will be to look at how differing cultures responded to this crisis. I postulate there will be identifiable differences in morbidity and mortality rates _visa vis _factors such as population density, the propensity for physical contact, levels of community trust, and general social capital -- just to name a few possible factors.

Interesting times indeed...


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> Why do people have to make their point by using derogatory terms, like whining. You're welcome to disagree, without being disagreeable.


Ehm, with all due respect, your comments calling people 'self-righteous' when they defended social distancing were not exactly full of brotherly love either...


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

MikeOReilly said:


> I certainly can't speak to any specific place Sander, but if we can maintain physical distancing in grocery stores, then clearly it is possible to do it at launch ramps. Whether people do it or not will depend on individual responsibility and sensibility.
> 
> Most people seem to be getting the message -- at least to my observation. But your situation may indeed be different.
> 
> ...


South Korea has very high population density - over 10x the US. They're past the second wave, and still just 0.02% infection rate...and I've read that they didn't have to shut down their economy or shelter in place.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

TakeFive said:


> South Korea has very high population density - over 10x the US. They're past the second wave, and still just 0.02% infection rate.


Exactly... Looking at the differences between populations and communities will be endlessly fascinating.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

MikeOReilly said:


> I certainly can't speak to any specific place Sander, but if we can maintain physical distancing in grocery stores, then clearly it is possible to do it at launch ramps. Whether people do it or not will depend on individual responsibility and sensibility.
> 
> .


My experience is that compliance in grocery store is less than perfect. Aisles are impassable... Perhaps they need to make the ailse traffic one way????

Workers had dollies full of food products blocking the aisles.

YES people are using PPE and the check lines are distancing... Yet you come less than a yard from the clerk... the aisles in my opinion are a complete fail.

So in the end... it's like being a little bit pregnant.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Minnewaska said:


> ...Be smart. By all means, if you are personally vulnerable, stay isolated. Doesn't make sense that everyone does...


This alone will not slow the spread. Many who are not personally vulnerable live or work with others who are. Libertarian populism won't work in this case - we all have to look out for each other.



Minnewaska said:


> ...I don't think implementation needs to be so pedantic in all forms. No one wants the money, they want the compliance. That's another Cuomo quote.
> 
> The way you do this is to identify a major routine place of non-compliance, like SO identified. You form a team of LEOs in proper PPE and call the media. You publicly and noticeable round up all these people and issue the summons. It plays on the news and the front page...


This would backfire in a big way. With some encouraging open revolt against the governors, and extremists interpreting it as a call to arms, such a video would play on Fox News as "stormtroopers taking our guns". It would result in violence.


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

MikeOReilly said:


> Exactly... Looking at the differences between populations and communities will be endlessly fascinating.


The difference is testing and contact tracing. The US is SO FAR BEHIND in this area, and until we catch up with this, any reopening will likely result in another shutdown.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SanderO said:


> One of my observations on the water is that boating has a huge social component.......


Totally agree. We typically have guests every single weekend, almost without exception. That has to remain off limits for now, maybe all summer. It's exactly the point, there are smart rules and those that are beyond effect.

I think you also mentioned launches. I think these can still operate safely with all occupants in masks, which avoids droplet spread to each other. All hands sanitized when exiting the the vessel. Again, I advocate smart rules, not unnecessary lock downs.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> Ehm, with all due respect, your comments calling people 'self-righteous' when they defended social distancing were not exactly full of brotherly love either...


Fair enough. I should not have said that. We'll see how many others can either take the lead or own up to their own indiscretions.


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## MacBlaze (Jan 18, 2016)

SanderO said:


> My experience is that compliance in grocery store is less than perfect. Aisles are impassable... Perhaps they need to make the ailse traffic one way????
> 
> Workers had dollies full of food products blocking the aisles.
> 
> ...


Interesting. From what I've read the restrictions here in Western Canada are much less that the east coast of the US. But the marinas are still open (boating is strongly discouraged), our grocery stores all have one-way aisles, with very little PPE evident, and the cashiers all have plexiglass shields separating them from customers.

All this comparison of numbers is going to be fundamentally useless unless the underlying attitudes and social actions/reactions of individuals and jurisdictions is examined at a pretty fine level. Personally I believe that the higher the number of cases, the stronger and potentially less relevant the gov't measures will be. Fear is a strong motivator and does strange things to people.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

TakeFive said:


> South Korea has very high population density - over 10x the US. They're past the second wave, and still just 0.02% infection rate...and I've read that they didn't have to shut down their economy or shelter in place.


Sweden and Brasil never shutdown their economy. Bars and schools remained open. Some limitations on crowds of 50 or more. Recommended isolation at first signs of illness.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

SanderO said:


> My experience is that compliance in grocery store is less than perfect. Aisles are impassable... Perhaps they need to make the ailse traffic one way????
> 
> Workers had dollies full of food products blocking the aisles.
> 
> ...


In Washington DC they limit the amount of people in the Supermarket to 80 at one time. You can't get in without a mask too. My gal reports she never had a wait time since they implemented the new rules.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

mbianka said:


> Sweden and Brasil never shutdown their economy. Bars and schools remained open. Some limitations on crowds of 50 or more. Recommended isolation at first signs of illness.


The US needs to start studying them as a model for success. Global cooperation is critical. Good thing we have the WHO to facilitate that. Oh wait...


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

Minnewaska said:


> Totally agree. We typically have guests every single weekend, almost without exception. That has to remain off limits for now, maybe all summer. It's exactly the point, there are smart rules and those that are beyond effect.
> 
> I think you also mentioned launches. I think these can still operate safely with all occupants in masks, which avoids droplet spread to each other. All hands sanitized when exiting the the vessel. Again, I advocate smart rules, not unnecessary lock downs.


Personally I use my boat to get away from people. So I'm good with limitations.  Though requiring people to wear masks on launch rides is not that onerous for people to get to enjoy some recreational boating IMO.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

NYS should issue guidelines for supermarkets

shoppers/ sq ft
one way aisles
limits of x/ customer
no PPE no entry
wipes for carts

etc.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

SanderO said:


> My experience is that compliance in grocery store is less than perfect. Aisles are impassable... Perhaps they need to make the ailse traffic one way????
> 
> Workers had dollies full of food products blocking the aisles.
> 
> ...


Hmmm, many of our stores HAVE set up one way traffic. And all the cashiers are now behind plexiglass barriers. Those things happened pretty fast. I shop pretty much as normal up here, and don't have any problem with maintaining physical distance.

Once again, perhaps a difference of culture?


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

TakeFive said:


> The difference is testing and contact tracing. The US is SO FAR BEHIND in this area, and until we catch up with this, any reopening will likely result in another shutdown.


Could very well be. Although Ontario is apparently not doing particularly well with testing either. Haven't looked at a direct comparison though. Maybe our "bad" is still pretty good...?


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

mbianka said:


> Personally I use my boat to get away from people. So I'm good with limitations.  Though requiring people to wear masks on launch rides is not that onerous for people to get to enjoy some recreational boating IMO.


Yes an excellent example of why it is ok to get out and about :devil

It has to be better and safer than just staying home! What possible harm could there be?

Stop making excuses and justifications! Stay at home!!!!! Why don't people get it?


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

mbianka said:


> Sweden and Brasil never shutdown their economy. Bars and schools remained open. Some limitations on crowds of 50 or more. Recommended isolation at first signs of illness.


Yes, Brazil has a very effective way of dealing with C19 - they simply refuse to test for it, thus it doesn't exist. We tried that logic but it didn't work because the darn liberals and elitist scientists demanded testing.

Meanwhile, Brazil is digging mass graves, ordering and distributing large numbers of body bags, and firing/jailing anyone who speaks about the increased sickness and deaths that are taking place throughout the country.

Their dear leader does not take kindly to his ideology, bluster, and ego being affronted with actual facts. Luckily, we don't live under such a leader.

Oh wait...

Mark


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

Actual comment on our FB page, complaining about the ramp closure. It just shows how people think.

_Being we wouldn't be able to put it in at public place I would surely pay a fee to put it in the water. After all the people who want to social distance by going fishing should be able to do so. And those families whom are locked in there houses would still be confined to an area if they chose to take a ride in their boat.besides. Fresh air is good for people. They told everyone to get some fresh air. Domestic violence is on the rise. People are getting stir crazy._

Never mind that they have to go buy bait ( probably go in the store all together ) fishing licenses, probably tackle, gas, food, drinks.Not to mention marine supplies, whatever their boat needs. and all get together to yell at everyone on the ramps and dock ..... A big family outing to Walmart should get them ready to go out " social distancing"


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

Minnewaska said:


> This does not need to be as hard as you imagine. You pull a few people over for speeding, make your presence known and everyone else around them starts slowing down. People spread the word on speed traps. You never know if the car you saw with flashing red lights got a ticket, let alone convicted.
> 
> In your specific example, I'd have the police pass a form. You sign a pre-written statement to the police, where you fill in the address you've been staying for the past 14 days. Right above your signature in large bold font, is a perjury warning, which describes the few years in prison for lying. There is always one in the crowd that isn't that tough.
> 
> ...


Look I will just concede this.

Anecdotally, in my 30 years of government work I've seen a few police investigations go down. The ******* clannish sort that make up oir population of " fisherman" will never crack. They know that trick apparently very well.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

https://www.wwnytv.com/2020/04/16/why-are-some-boat-launches-open-others-closed/

What did I say about NY regulations always being vague? Yeah

"This is just one example of the confusion created among local officials by the COVID-19 response. It happens because daily they're sifting through orders from the governor, guidance from the county and state health departments, and the federal government."


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## BarryL (Aug 21, 2003)

Hey,

I just don't understand your point.

I thought the point of social distancing was to try and prevent the spreading of a virus. I didn't know the point was for the government to control the life of everyone living in the country.

I am all for stopping the spread of the virus. I will do everything in my power to do that. What does sailing have to do with that? For ME PERSONALLY (NOT YOU OR ANYONE ELSE BUT FOR ME) a trip to my boat involves me getting in my car, which is on my driveway, driving to my yacht club where I can park in a space by myself, then walking to my dinghy and taking that to my boat, where I may sail, or work, or read or do any number of other things. If I'm lucky, my wife will come with me.

How does any of that increase the risk of virus spreading?

I bet there are many others like me, for whom a day on the water will offer many therapeutic benefits and no virus risk.
You may say "yes, for you that is fine, but someone else may not be so careful and they may do ....". But that argument could be applied to ANYTHING. In NY you are allowed (and even encouraged) to go outside for fresh air and exercise. My wife and I have been taking our dogs on a 2+ mile walk every day (the dogs are going to really sad when this is all over and my wife goes back to working in an office). How is that any different than going to the boat or to paddle around the harbor in a kayak?

What if the government said that in order stop the spread of the virus you needed to wear only red pants, or you needed to play mozart on the radio 12 hours a day? Would you do that? Clearly those things have nothing to do with a virus, it's just government having power over the people. Stopping people from boating was silly and I credit the NY/CT/etc governments for realizing that and now allowing it. Same thing with golf. First it was OK, then it wasn't, and now, after the powers at be thought about, realized that golf CAN be safe and is now allowed again.

That doesn't give anyone / everyone cart blanche to do anything, but use you head, use common sense, and be safe.

Barry



Don L said:


> So whiny boaters "need" to go to their boats to get them into the water.
> 
> There is no way to justify this in the current situation other than selflessness. I am sure there will now be continued excesses "buts" on this, along with others threads, about why it is safe to do this "because ....." . But in in the end it is nothing but putting your want to boating over everything and everyone.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

Yes i understand many look for a lgical justification to just NOT stay put. The bottom line s that they just want to. Trust me, people can survive without a boat joy ride.


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## MacBlaze (Jan 18, 2016)

BarryL said:


> Hey,
> 
> I just don't understand your point.
> 
> ...


I don't disagree that a lot of the controls are borderline over-the-top but can we all agree for once and for all that any activity increases the risk to others, even if by a little bit? It's been stated umpteen times that by going out on the water you tempt fate and might suffer a breakdown or an accident etc. The Canadian Coast Guard has been getting that message out over over and also emphasizing that if you do call for help you MUST state whether or not you might be sick.

Is it likely? No. IMHO. Are the odds that you will have a lovely solo day interacting with absolutely no one? Yes, again in my opinion. But let's not pretend that there is no risk to others involved .


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

They are allowing it. Its a done deal. 


No need to argue. Cuomo says its okay.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Sal Paradise said:


> They are allowing it. Its a done deal.
> 
> No need to argue. Cuomo says its okay.


But it does not address the fact that MOST people have guests or crew or a sailing / fishing buddy and social distancing on a small boat is not possible.


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## CLOSECALL (Dec 11, 2012)

My advice must be that if you want to sail and it is permitted in your state,just go and don't mention it on this forum. And be careful. You will probably be fine and not endanger anyone.

Ok. Let 'r rip.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

BarryL said:


> ...I thought the point of social distancing was to try and prevent the spreading of a virus. I didn't know the point was for the government to control the life of everyone living in the country.


To be clear, all this physical distancing, and general shut down of most activities, is not to _prevent_ the spread of the virus. The reason we are doing this is to *slow* the spread. "Flatten the curve" means exactly that; spreading the curve of infection out over a longer period of time. It has never meant fewer people will ultimately be infected.

But to your main point, I agree. Boating, at least the kind I am familiar with, can certainly be done while respecting the need to remain physically distant. It's definitely not zero risk -- nothing is. But if people are reasonably responsible, and somewhat aware of others, it can easily be done. We're proving it everyday at the grocery store and on the walking paths.



MacBlaze said:


> I don't disagree that a lot of the controls are borderline over-the-top but can we all agree for once and for all that any activity increases the risk to others,* even if by a little bit*? ...


Completely agree. It increases it "by a little bit." Of course, the bun fight we're all having here is over the technical definition of "a little bit." Scale and impact matters in this discussion. I think most reasonable people would agree the scale of the impact is small for most reasonably sensible people. But the impact of "even a little bit" could be quite large -- or it could be negligible. We just don't know.

This is the problem we face with this pandemic. We just don't know how virulent, nor how deadly this virus really is. The preliminary morbidity and mortality rates range by a factor of 10 across different national, and even regional, populations. This clearly shows the accuracy of our knowledge is poor.

In the face of a large unknown I support a cautious approach. But that doesn't mean we abandon all other values and interests in our societies. Despite the rhetoric, this is not the apocalypse, even at its worst.


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## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

I think what we do know is that just 39 days ago, they had one covid related death in NY today even with social distancing, there are over 18,000 deaths Not every place is NY but. it's the reality on the ground that matters at the moment. Hospitals wouldn't be able to manage this beast if left unchecked. 

I can wait a while longer to see my boat, it's fiberglass and covered. It's not going anywhere, and I certainly wouldn't be able to sell it, if I wanted to.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

tempest said:


> I think what we do know is that just 39 days ago, they had one covid related death in NY today even with social distancing, there are over 18,000 deaths Not every place is NY but. it's the reality on the ground that matters at the moment. Hospitals wouldn't be able to manage this beast if left unchecked.


It's still early in the data analysis, but I wonder if places like Italy, Spain, Belgium, and now New York state, will be the aberrations and not the norm. The death rates in these places are currently looking like outliers compared to most of the rest.

But as I say, it is too early to make any definitive statements.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

MikeOReilly said:


> It's still early in the data analysis, but I wonder if places like Italy, Spain, Belgium, and now New York state, will be the aberrations and not the norm. The death rates in these places are currently looking like outliers compared to most of the rest.
> 
> But as I say, it is too early to make any definitive statements.


The spread should involve sociological factors. NYC is an environment with a great amount of social contact as normal. It's not only the density of the population but the fact that tourists and business people, diplomats, sports fans,art lovers, concert goers etc... flock to NYC.

European culture seems to be more social in the sense that they don't have as many private homes for vacation and have this like agra-tourism... less private property meme and densely used cafe culture for example, not to mention many of their cities are banning cars from the CBD so people are filling the streets... Florence, Amsterdam and so on.

Mathematical modelling will the complex, with multiple inputs/variables and for sure not linear based on population/sq mile.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Sal Paradise said:


> ......Never mind that they have to go buy bait ( probably go in the store all together ) fishing licenses, probably tackle, gas, food, drinks.Not to mention marine supplies, whatever their boat needs. and all get together to yell at everyone on the ramps and dock ..... A big family outing to Walmart should get them ready to go out " social distancing"....





Sal Paradise said:


> ......The ******* clannish sort that make up oir population of " fisherman" will never crack. ......


I was surprised to see the discriminatory assumptions and descriptions that seem to be guiding your local politicians. Knowing your online persona, I doubt these are minorities, but if they were, can you imagine the outrage?


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

Don L said:


> Yes an excellent example of why it is ok to get out and about :devil
> 
> It has to be better and safer than just staying home! What possible harm could there be?
> 
> Stop making excuses and justifications! Stay at home!!!!! Why don't people get it?


One size does not fit all in this situation. I agree if one is taking mass transportation to get to their boats. Not a good idea. Personally I will be getting in my car alone. Going on the boat alone. Returning to home alone. No interaction with anyone else. I'll also be wearing a mask around my neck. I won't be hanging out partying and drinking rum like some beach gathering of cruisers in the Exumas.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

SanderO said:


> The spread should involve sociological factors. NYC is an environment with a great amount of social contact as normal. It's not only the density of the population but the fact that tourists and business people, diplomats, sports fans,art lovers, concert goers etc... flock to NYC.
> 
> European culture seems to be more social in the sense that they don't have as many private homes for vacation and have this like agra-tourism... less private property meme and densely used cafe culture for example, not to mention many of their cities are banning cars from the CBD so people are filling the streets... Florence, Amsterdam and so on.
> 
> Mathematical modelling will the complex, with multiple inputs/variables and for sure not linear based on population/sq mile.


Yes! I think one of the more interesting retrospective studies will be to look at cultural differences and how it relates to disease dispersion, and even death rates. I also think a notions of societal trust, cohesion and community will be measurable factors.

Whole generations of new PhDs will owe their academic credentials to this pandemic.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Sal Paradise said:


> As if I care. We had more diversity and tolerance in one day in my neighborhood in Fort Greene than Minnewaska has seen in his entire life.


Re-read it Sal. I was giving you credit for presuming you were not discriminating against minorities in your post. While pointing out that referring to a group as ******* clannish seems to be guiding the actions of your town. It's what you said.

How would you possibly know what I've seen in my life?


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

Some people are truly going to shelter in place. Others are going to justify their actions to go to the beach, park, boating etc. 

Not hard to sort as who is really doing the right thing for the group and putting everyones needs above others wants (note the word “want” as no one has a “need” to go for a day boat ride).


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## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

MikeOReilly said:


> It's still early in the data analysis, but I wonder if places like Italy, Spain, Belgium, and now New York state, will be the aberrations and not the norm. The death rates in these places are currently looking like outliers compared to most of the rest.
> 
> But as I say, it is too early to make any definitive statements.


IDK, if it's too early to say that this virus spreads like wildfire. Dr. Fauci has said as much. I believe " Very Efficient" were his words. 
Keep in mind that we've canceled every major event in the US for the last 30+ days.

Las Vegas is closed, Every major sporting event has been canceled ( March Madness), cruise ships are in port, planes are flying empty. Disney closed etc. Hotels and resorts closed. Dense environments like the Northeast Corridor of the U.S. get re-created all over this country at various times of the year. The Ratio of "known" positive cases to deaths worldwide is roughly 6.8%, lower in some places by a few % points. Even if, with more testing and antibody testing, we find the death rate to be as low as 1 %, that would still be 10X deadlier than the Flu.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

MikeOReilly said:


> Yes! I think one of the more interesting retrospective studies will be to look at cultural differences and how it relates to disease dispersion, and even death rates. I also think a notions of societal trust, cohesion and community will be measurable factors.
> 
> Whole generations of new PhDs will owe their academic credentials to this pandemic.


Also look at NYC ethnic communities whose members are traveling back and forth to their "home countries". More than 800 languages are spoken in NYC. NYC has not one but two Chinatowns! I suspect the ethnic diversity is part of the transport of pathogens into the city from around the world.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

Minnewaska said:


> Re-read it Sal. I was giving you credit for presuming you were not discriminating against minorities in your post. While pointing out that referring to a group as ******* clannish seems to be guiding the actions of your town. It's what you said.
> 
> How would you possibly know what I've seen in my life?


Language is a much more sophisticated analytical tool than most people realize.

Anyway, its a tense and frankly awful time for everyone. I have had more than one very intelligent person in a leadership role completely melt down IRL in the last week.

You seem like a good guy and very knowledgeable about sailing. How about we drop it and just not fight right now?


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

tempest said:


> IDK, if it's too early to say that this virus spreads like wildfire. Dr. Fauci has said as much. I believe " Very Efficient" were his words.


I don't think I suggested the virus hasn't spread widely. Given its novel nature, it would be surprising if it hasn't. Influenza is estimated to infect anywhere from 2% to 15% annually, and this is a virus we all have some immunity against. What is clear from the early morbidity and mortality data is we really don't how virulent this new Covid-19 is. The mortality rate ranges by a factor of 10, or more, from different populations.

Is this due to testing (or lack of testing)? Is this due to other physical factors such as population density? Latitude? Relative humidity? Or is it due to differing cultural factors such as communal trust, or simply that some cultures are more tactile than others?

Way too early to say. I'm sure the answer will be some shade of 'all of the above.'


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

MikeOReilly said:


> I don't think I suggested the virus hasn't spread widely. Given its novel nature, it would be surprising if it hasn't. Influenza is estimated to infect anywhere from 2% to 15% annually, and this is a virus we all have some immunity against. What is clear from the early morbidity and mortality data is we really don't how virulent this new Covid-19 is. The mortality rate ranges by a factor of 10, or more, from different populations.
> 
> Is this due to testing (or lack of testing)? Is this due to other physical factors such as population density? Latitude? Relative humidity? Or is it due to differing cultural factors such as communal trust, or simply that some cultures are more tactile than others?
> 
> Way too early to say. I'm sure the answer will be some shade of 'all of the above.'


There are vaccines for influenzas to blunt its impact


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

SanderO said:


> Also look at NYC ethnic communities whose members are traveling back and forth to their "home countries". More than 800 languages are spoken in NYC. NYC has not one but two Chinatowns! I suspect the ethnic diversity is part of the transport of pathogens into the city from around the world.


Indeed, NYC is one of the most multicultural cities in the world. It would be interesting to see how it compares to other similarly diverse cities, such as London, Singapore or even Toronto (which is said to be the most multicultural city in the world).

https://theculturetrip.com/north-am...he-10-most-multicultural-cities-in-the-world/



SanderO said:


> There are vaccines for influenzas to blunt its impact


Exactly, and yet it is still spreads quite easily. This is why I'll be surprised if the real spread of Covid-19 doesn't turn out to be in the 70 to 90% range. Of course, if that's the case, then the death rate is as low, or lower than the typical influenza.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

MikeOReilly said:


> Indeed, NYC is one of the most multicultural cities in the world. It would be interesting to see how it compares to other similarly diverse cities, such as London, Singapore or even Toronto (which is said to be the most multicultural city in the world).
> 
> https://theculturetrip.com/north-am...he-10-most-multicultural-cities-in-the-world/
> 
> Exactly, and yet it is still spreads quite easily. This is why I'll be surprised if the real spread of Covid-19 doesn't turn out to be in the 70 to 90% range. Of course, if that's the case, then the death rate is as low, or lower than the typical influenza.


I don't have the back ground in statistics to get there. But it seems to me you can back the numbers out of the deaths, at a 2% rate. You can't fake or discount a death. In gross numbers if they expect a total of 60,000 deaths in the U.S. by August then divide by .02 = 3 million people who have had it.

To get to heard immunity in the U.S. you need 250 million. So that's over 35 years at this rate.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Read the NYT about antibody testing. Beyond it’s unavailability many if not most are seriously inaccurate. Of interest China is the major supplier. Germany decided to use no currently commercially available test kits but rather developed their own. This circumvents issues of being dependent on a foreign source and allows you to be secure in developing a accurate test with known false positive and negative rates. In the USA all virologists, epidemiologists, infectious disease internists know the wisdom of Germany’s action. All lament the inability of our federal government to institute a similar program. Birx and Fauci have alluded to this issue. It’s self evident to any thoughtful layman. 

Virulence is a complex subject. Multiple factors are involved.
How many viable copies of the infectious agent must be presented to achieve infection.
How do those copies need be presented.
What is the the hosts behavior that allows the correct presentation of the infectious agent to allow infection.

For covid
It seems very few copies are required.
The copies need to be presented to moist mucosal membranes ( nose, eyes, lips). Interestingly if you eat it it’s not likely to cause infection as it denatures with stomach acid.
Aerosols on the face or touching face with contaminated hands allows presentation on to mucosa that allows infection.

So boating requires you to be in community spaces with increased probability that surfaces maybe contaminated. Even if you sail alone or only with other home occupants you need to go through a facility that’s unlikely to be sterile. This can be circumvented with gloving hand sanitizer, double gloving, hand washing can decrease these risks.
Walkways on slips, piers, and interior spaces (sheds, bathrooms etc.) often do not allow safe distancing. Aerosol contamination, even in open spaces, can occur. Without N95 masks and face shields transmission can occur. At this point there remains a paucity of PPE so mitigation of risk remains limited. 

Still have close friends stuck in the Caribbean. Several without dirt houses. They are slowly returning to the USA. For them their risk of being infected is negligible. Their risk Of an adverse outcome if getting infected is high. However, for a multiplicity of reasons they need to leave the hurricane zone. Grenada and Trinidad remain closed. They have the right of return. Judging both their personal risk and the risk to society I believe it’s ethical for them to return to the states and use marina services as long as they follow best practices.
I have friends who either due to taking a year off from cruising or having work done have their boats on the hard. Universally they have decided to not launch until this pandemic is controlled +/or meaningful treatment +/or vaccine is available and generally used.

When thinking about this please understand your risk, the risk you present to others and benefit.
All such decisions should be risk/benefit. At present although stated bluntly DonL is right. Risk/benefit doesn’t justify recreational boating except in very specific circumstances.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

A gentle reminder that personal attacks ARE NOT ACCEPTABLE. Most of us are getting antsy. It doesn't mean anyone gets a free pass to break the rules.

Also, this thread is moving away from sailing into off topic. Please take the conversation there.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

outbound said:


> Read the NYT about antibody testing. Beyond it's unavailability many if not most are seriously inaccurate. Of interest China is the major supplier. Germany decided to use no currently commercially available test kits but rather developed their own. This circumvents issues of being dependent on a foreign source and allows you to be secure in developing a accurate test with known false positive and negative rates. In the USA all virologists, epidemiologists, infectious disease internists know the wisdom of Germany's action. All lament the inability of our federal government to institute a similar program. Birx and Fauci have alluded to this issue. It's self evident to any thoughtful layman.
> 
> Virulence is a complex subject. Multiple factors are involved.
> How many viable copies of the infectious agent must be presented to achieve infection.
> ...


Totally agree. It's kind of preposterous to state you are socially isolating in a large marina situation. Restrooms, handrails for safety, docking lines, parking lots , . As was said the distance of isolation on a pier is in most cases less tha 6 ft, carts not just handles put also interiors of carts carrying and transferring clothing bags , food, and boating supplies.

Yes maybe once on the boat you are. The purpose of the distancing is to cut down on the density too. Marinas though not rock concerts , if open will attract a number of people, kids, some very aware, and some not even casually aware.

This is being opened gradually, for safety reasons. Still some don't think they can bear to go without their precious boat, even if it puts someone else in peril.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Sal Paradise said:


> I don't have the back ground in statistics to get there. But it seems to me you can back the numbers out of the deaths, at a 2% rate. You can't fake or discount a death. In gross numbers if they expect a total of 60,000 deaths in the U.S. by August then divide by .02 = 3 million people who have had it.
> 
> To get to heard immunity in the U.S. you need 250 million. So that's over 35 years at this rate.


Yup, you can play with any set of numbers now. All we really know is the numerator (deaths). We have a poor grasp of the denominator (number infected). Until we have effective, widespread testing, this number will remain unclear. And therefore the real death rate will also remain unclear.

My view is that the best we can say is that this disease seems to be at least as infectious as influenza, and given its novel nature, is therefore likely to spread more easily and widely -- probably already has. But we just can't know yet.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Sal Paradise said:


> You can't fake or discount a death.


But they can be miscounted. I recently learned that the US was only counting deaths that occurred in hospitals, as well as only those deaths that had tested positive there. Those dying outside of hospitals, or without being tested, or testing negative but still presenting with C19 symptoms (the false negative rate is high for the tests being used), were not being counted. There was nothing nefarious about it - it was just a technicality in a point in time.

Recently, the CDC changed guidelines to counting deaths from anyone showing C19 symptoms regardless of testing and location. NY just added a bolus of deaths to their count to account for people dying in nursing homes from C19.

Mark


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## Interlude (Jun 16, 2016)

colemj said:


> But they can be miscounted. I recently learned that the US was only counting deaths that occurred in hospitals, as well as only those deaths that had tested positive there. Those dying outside of hospitals, or without being tested, or testing negative but still presenting with C19 symptoms (the false negative rate is high for the tests being used), were not being counted. There was nothing nefarious about it - it was just a technicality in a point in time.
> 
> Recently, the CDC changed guidelines to counting deaths from anyone showing C19 symptoms regardless of testing and location. NY just added a bolus of deaths to their count to account for people dying in nursing homes from C19.
> 
> Mark


*We will probably never know the number of cases but this is what we do know about the flu:

From the CDC:
*
According to new estimates, between 291,000 and 646,000 people worldwide die from seasonal influenza-related respiratory illnesses each year, higher than a previous estimate of 250,000 to 500,000 and based on a robust, multinational survey.

The new estimate, from a collaborative study by CDC and global health partners, appears in The Lancet. The estimate *excludes* deaths during pandemics.

"These findings remind us of the seriousness of flu and that flu prevention should really be a global priority," says Joe Bresee, M.D., associate director for global health in CDC's Influenza Division and a study co-author.

The new estimates use more recent data, taken from a larger and more diverse group of countries than previous estimates. Forty-seven countries contributed to this effort. Researchers calculated annual seasonal influenza-associated respiratory deaths for 33 of those countries (57 percent of the world's population) that had death records and seasonal influenza surveillance information for a minimum of four years between 1999 and 2015. Statistical modeling with those results was used to generate an estimate of the number of flu-associated respiratory deaths for 185 countries across the world. Data from the other 14 countries were used to validate the estimates of seasonal influenza-associated respiratory death from the statistical models.

Poorest nations, older adults hit hardest by flu

Researchers calculated region-specific estimates and age-specific mortality estimates for people younger than 65 years, people 65-74 years, and people 75 years and older. The greatest flu mortality burden was seen in the world's poorest regions and among older adults. People age 75 years and older and people living in sub-Saharan African countries experienced the highest rates of flu-associated respiratory deaths. Eastern Mediterranean and Southeast Asian countries had slightly lower but still high rates of flu-associated respiratory deaths.

Despite the World Health Organization recommendations to use vaccines to help protect people in high-risk populations, few developing countries have seasonal flu vaccination programs or the capacity to produce and distribute seasonal or pandemic vaccines.

Global flu surveillance protects all nations, including U.S.

CDC works with global partners to improve worldwide capacity for influenza prevention and control. CDC has helped more than 60 countries build surveillance and laboratory capacity to rapidly detect and respond to influenza threats, including viruses with the potential to cause global pandemics. These efforts, along with technical support, has helped some partners generate estimates of influenza-associated deaths, which contributed to this global effort.

Global surveillance also provides the foundation for selecting the viruses used to make seasonal flu vaccines each year. This helps improve the effectiveness of flu vaccines used in the United States. Global surveillance also is crucial to pandemic preparedness by identifying viruses overseas that might pose a human health risk to people in the United States.

"This work adds to a growing global understanding of the burden of influenza and populations at highest risk," says CDC researcher Danielle Iuliano, lead author of The Lancet study. "It builds the evidence base for influenza vaccination programs in other countries."

The study authors note that these new estimates are limited to flu-associated respiratory deaths and therefore may underestimate the true global impact of seasonal influenza. Influenza infection can create or exacerbate other health factors which are then listed as the cause of death on death certificates, for example cardiovascular disease, diabetes, or related complications. Additional research to estimate non-respiratory causes of flu-associated deaths are ongoing.

###
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES external icon


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## Greenwave (Jan 12, 2020)

MikeOReilly said:


> Yup, you can play with any set of numbers now. All we really know is the numerator (deaths). We have a poor grasp of the denominator (number infected). Until we have effective, widespread testing, this number will remain unclear. And therefore the real death rate will also remain unclear.
> 
> My view is that the best we can say is that this disease seems to be at least as infectious as influenza, and given its novel nature, is therefore likely to spread more easily and widely -- probably already has. But we just can't know yet.


No doubt for me that the death rate is well below previously reported values for the reason you point out. We just don't know how many people have had this virus.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Also not counted but known to be quite significant is number of deaths due to inadequate or unavailable medical care during the pandemic. Things like M.I., stroke, CHF,, kidney failure etc. in short the run of the mill serious diseases you see daily. I’ve received communications from people and families of deceased with non Covid illnesses receiving inadequate care while the pandemic overwhelms or markly limits healthcare access . Even when access is granted infectious disease protocols must be followed. This severely slows and complicates taking care of people thereby increasing incidence of adverse outcomes.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

colemj said:


> But they can be miscounted. I recently learned that the US was only counting deaths that occurred in hospitals, as well as only those deaths that had tested positive there. Those dying outside of hospitals, or without being tested, or testing negative but still presenting with C19 symptoms (the false negative rate is high for the tests being used), were not being counted. There was nothing nefarious about it - it was just a technicality in a point in time.
> 
> Recently, the CDC changed guidelines to counting deaths from anyone showing C19 symptoms regardless of testing and location. NY just added a bolus of deaths to their count to account for people dying in nursing homes from C19.
> 
> Mark


Using this method I calculated 40,000 people being infected per day in NY during the peak. I wanted to put some conceptual size to it.

the U.S. death rate is like 35% - one would assume that is because so many infected people who are asymptomatic or mildly affected never get a test and the worst cases always do.

Without comprehensive testing, virtually nothing works for analysis. That must be why Trump is so opposed to doing testing.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

outbound said:


> Also not counted but known to be quite significant is number of deaths due to inadequate or unavailable medical care during the pandemic. Things like M.I., stroke, CHF,, kidney failure etc. in short the run of the mill serious diseases you see daily. I've received communications from people and families of deceased with non Covid illnesses receiving inadequate care while the pandemic overwhelms or markly limits healthcare access . Even when access is granted infectious disease protocols must be followed. This severely slows and complicates taking care of people thereby increasing incidence of adverse outcomes.


My brother-in-law is an anesthesiologist and I have a niece who is a physiotherapist. They were both expressing concern over the cancellation of low-priority procedures, which given enough time, will become high priority. They both work in hospitals in Alberta, and say they are now seeing less activity as everything gets deferred and cancelled, all in an effort to free up resources for possible Covid-19 patients.

So far, the flood has not come, which is _hopefully_ a testament to how effective our efforts at "flattening the curve" have been.


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## Ken111 (Jan 8, 2020)

The major hospitals in Boston and Southern California are also more than half empty with nursing staff being sent home due to Covid patients not showing up. Staff and MDs not happy about all the elective and non emergency surgical procedures having been cancelled including cancer surgeries.

Yes, I have family members working in OR and ICU facilities in both locations, so I have first hand information coming from staff who can’t get the hours they want.

Sort of an inconvenient truth that doesn’t conform to the media narrative or popular belief. There isn’t a ‘waiting line’ for treatment.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

MikeOReilly said:


> My brother-in-law is an anesthesiologist and I have a niece who is a physiotherapist. They were both expressing concern over the cancellation of low-priority procedures, which given enough time, will become high priority. They both work in hospitals in Alberta, and say they are now seeing less activity as everything gets deferred and cancelled, all in an effort to free up resources for possible Covid-19 patients.
> 
> So far, the flood has not come, which is _hopefully_ a testament to how effective our efforts at "flattening the curve" have been.


They are slowly allowing elective surgeries in MD.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Ken111 said:


> The major hospitals in Boston and Southern California are also more than half empty with nursing staff being sent home due to Covid patients not showing up. Staff and MDs not happy about all the elective and non emergency surgical procedures having been cancelled including cancer surgeries.
> 
> Yes, I have family members working in OR and ICU facilities in both locations, so I have first hand information coming from staff who can't get the hours they want.
> 
> Sort of an inconvenient truth that doesn't conform to the media narrative or popular belief. There isn't a 'waiting line' for treatment.


My wife is a nurse in Baltimore Hospital and the opposite is happening


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Back to marinas.

If everyone puts a mask on before getting out of their car, retrieves a dock cart and goes directly to their boat, even if passing another masked tenant on a close dock, how would the disease transmit?

You then wash your hands, when you get aboard. Seems very safe to me and is essentially the exact same protocol for grocery stores. Well, until recently virtually no one was wearing masks in grocery stores and they weren't identified as epicenters of disease spread. In fact, even with full access to groceries, disease spread is flattening.

Ones judgement of whether sailing is necessary is of no interest. People judge. Haters hate. The choir doesn't need to constantly answer these questions with preaching we all need to repent and stay inside. The question is not whether anyone likes us going to marinas.

It's about how to avoid spread, when we do (and are) going to marinas in most of the country. Bathrooms are an interesting issue. Big question is whether the disease lingers in aerosol form in the room, after the last occupant leaves. I'm not reading that's very likely. Without aerosol lingering, you wash your hands. That's all. Although, every single possible things has been postulated by someone. So much that the CDC has started a "Stop the Spread of Rumors" page.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/daily-life-coping/share-facts.html


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

Ken111 said:


> The major hospitals in Boston and Southern California are also more than half empty with nursing staff being sent home due to Covid patients not showing up. Staff and MDs not happy about all the elective and non emergency surgical procedures having been cancelled including cancer surgeries
> Yes, I have family members working in OR and ICU facilities in both locations, so I have first hand information coming from staff who can't get the hours they want.
> 
> Sort of an inconvenient truth that doesn't conform to the media narrative or popular belief. There isn't a 'waiting line' for treatment.


My nephew also recently had an elective followup surgery cancelled in Washington DC. Hopefully he'll be able the much needed operation soon. I listened to woman on a radio show who was in quite a bit of pain because her shoulder surgery had been cancelled and doesn't know when she will be able to get it done. Hopefully she won't get addicted to some pain medication while waiting.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

MikeOReilly said:


> Indeed, NYC is one of the most multicultural cities in the world. It would be interesting to see how it compares to other similarly diverse cities, such as London, Singapore or even Toronto (which is said to be the most multicultural city in the world).
> 
> https://theculturetrip.com/north-am...he-10-most-multicultural-cities-in-the-world/


The hot spot in New York is Queens County which one Doctor who has been looking into why that is. Noted it's home to New York's two major Airports: Kennedy and Laguadia. Most of the workers at the airports live in Queens and take mass transportation to and from work. They also come into contact with travelers from infected counties more than other areas of the city. Plus bigger family units in smaller spaces and language issues regarding medical warnings contribute to the numbers.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

While I was working on my new sailcover in my den. I started thinking about who owns the boats in the botyard. There are a few like me retired with the boat paid for and I'm happy to be on a mooring. Many of the power boaters in slips are small business owners which are really taking a hit with the economy on "pause". I would expect that expenses like the boat would be the first thing cut by such owners when the money gets tight. It will be interesting to see if the slips get filled this year like years past.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

mbianka said:


> ....Many of the power boaters in slips are small business owners which are really taking a hit with the economy on "pause".......


I hadn't thought of it that way. You're right, as I scan the horizon. Then I started thinking of the non-essential businesses, even when they're not the owner. I swear almost all are taking a hit.

However, our year's slip rent was due last month. Many, like me, pay in advance for an early bird discount. Boats are being splashed continuously around these parts.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

Its good that marinas are opening and boats launched. I find it useful to remember that we are on a curve, not a level line. As the numbers drop and we transition into semi normal, we will figure out the marina situation. By mid to late summer a lot of things will have changed. If testing really ramps up and we can gain more confidence, you will see people lose their fear very fast, maybe too fast.


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> Haters hate. The choir doesn't need to constantly answer these questions with preaching we all need to repent and stay inside. [/url]


I thought you wanted to down-tune the rhetorics?


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

What’s amazing is ED docs/RNs are taking pay cuts because in the absence of elective and other non emergency services even the large hospital systems are losing money hand over fist. 
I live in a town park. The town closed it. Now there are way more scoff laws because of boredom. The park has more than double the number of people fishing on its shores and walking on it paths. They don’t social distance. They are a continuing potential vector of transmission. 
Each here speaks to their own actions. Policy should consider the behavior of constituents. What you say is true. It’s quite possible to open marinas before covid is controlled and not have that event serve as a nidus of infection. But given human nature be worried....be very worried.

Time will tell but believe due to economic pressures, federal governmental incompetence and hedonistic desires a second wave is likely.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

How many actual weeks were the marinas closed in RI, NY, Conn, and NJ? 
How many weeks was there no recreational boating?


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

The NYS Pause executive order was March 20. At some point they clarified things, not sure when and marinas were closed to recreational boats. That was around the beginning of April. With the order extended until May 15, that's roughly 6 weeks, but there are rarely boats out in April in NY. So that means its really two weeks of the boating season, not really prime weeks for most - this is striper fishing time. Prime sailing is Memorial to Labor day.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Thanks Sal....that what I thought 
It’s been two weeks not using our boats..TWO WHOLE WEEKS
Now that’s something to be upset about, plan on breaking your contract, ask for a rebate on fees.

I thought I missed something and the marinas had been close a month already.

I’m upset.....buts it’s about 42,000 humans dead and the constant suffering. 

Boating is starting to open up, marinas operation. Hopefully the whining not being able to sail calms down and we focus on caring about our neighbors and being careful about socially distancing at the marina, and in the communities the marina is located in. Hopefully the cruisers come back north out of their self imposed quarantine all along the ICW. Hopefully posters calm down and act more civil instead of snide now that we can stare out at the water from our boats again. 

Where I live in Maryland we will be the last it appears to open up recreational boating. I’m not upset. I’d rather be on the boat. But I don’t want it to put even one person in jeopardy or have it cause my wife to work one more day in fear as a nurse. .in the scheme of things recreational boating is way down the Governor's special interest groups list.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Haven Harbour in Maryland posted this today. Looks like there may be some better news coming in May. I just hope Maryland starts to allow out-of-staters in without quarantine (except perhaps those from Georgia, given today's news):



> April 20, 2020 - As the COVID-19 pandemic has evolved, we have remained in contact with both the State of Maryland and the Kent County Economic Development office. With recent clarification about what activities are considered safe and in alignment with social distancing directives, we have resumed limited non-customer facing operations, such as spring commissioning and necessary repair work.
> 
> Marina facilities, including the Marine Store, remain closed to customers and the general public until such time that the Governor allows them to reopen. The guidance we have received suggests the recreational boating ban will be lifted in May.


Also, I received a communication from my marina saying that the rules shutting down campgrounds apply to marinas. Just substitute "RV" with "boat" and "campground" with "marina" in the following:



> 2. Campgrounds. Please note campgrounds are now required to close under that paragraph V.f.i.8 of Order No. 20-03-30-01. There is one exception to this requirement: Persons residing in recreational vehicles ("RVs") at campgrounds who genuinely have no other viable place of residence may remain in the campground. Such persons should comply with all applicable guidance from the CDC and MDH regarding social distancing.


Obviously something has changed since March 30 if HH marina is opening for commissioning, but I can't find exactly what that is.

EDIT: It looks like HH is doing spring commissioning under this FAQ clarification from April 17. It cites the same March 23 executive order that I had previously said would allow marinas to open. So it appears that marinas with maintenance services (like HH) can open, while ones that don't have them (like my marina) cannot. Nevertheless, my marina is still encouraging people to bring their boats in, even though we cannot use (or even visit) them:



> *Are marinas an essential business now that boating is not allowed?*
> 
> The Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency (CISA) defines certain marine trades and marine services as essential. Additionally, the interpretive guidance that accompanied Executive Order 20-03-23-01 includes the following language:
> 
> "Companies engaged in the &#8230; distribution, and sale of oil, gas, and propane products" (section 2.g.ii) and "companies that supply parts, or provide maintenance and repair services for transportation assets and infrastructure including&#8230; marine vessels" (section 2.m.xii).


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> I thought you wanted to down-tune the rhetorics?


LOL. It was not an ad hominem, directed at anyone or any other posted question, like the rhetoric filled have been and continue. Especially, the stay at home preaching, which is usually a reply to different legit question, not should I stay home. Did anyone answer the actual question, may Out, hard to tell. Continue to just get name calling and preaching.

RI marinas have been launching boats and have been open since March. I went in the water the last week of March. It's been a month already. I'd say 2/3rds or more of the fleet is splashed where I am. It's ahead of schedule, if anything, due to favorable weather. Not many out sailing, most are commissioning. By this time of year, I'd be living aboard for three weeks already. We don't bother, because no restaurants are open and shopping to cook three meals aboard is not what we feel like doing right now. Too much disarray with commissioning. That's not the problem, its the coming and going that I asked about. It's impractical for anyone to come from out of state, only residents. These laws will be on the books for at least another three weeks. The out of state residents have a claim, IMO. It was grossly unfair. Smarter restrictions could have been put in place, such as not leaving the dock to go other marinas, only household residents aboard, masks, etc. But having the National Guard pull them over to forcibly quarantine was right out of some nefarious manifesto.

I asked very directly about marina safety protocol thoughts. Folks are at open marinas all over the country, right now, every day. RI DEM has published their own guidelines. If everyone is masked, when moving about the marina and washes their hands, I'm failing to see how the disease would spread any more than in our crowded grocery stores, where the entire population frequents. We need smart ways of reducing spread, not draconian brute force. We especially need to understand better methods, in order to avoid a full shut down the next time.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

Marinas here in Florida being open/closed still seems dependent on its own decision. That also seems to apply to the degree of open/closed. It seems to depend somewhat on county/town. There are still lots of boats out joy riding and fishing (way to many in my opinion).

This is based on a very small sample as i came at Lake Worth, got fuel at Riveria Beach Marine, went back out and outside to Fort Pierce and then down ICW to Vero Beach. But after being in the Bahamas I was shocked at the number of boats and people out.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> LOL. It was not an ad hominem, directed at anyone or any other posted question, like the rhetoric filled have been and continue. Especially, the stay at home preaching, which is usually a reply to different legit question, not should I stay home. Did anyone answer the actual question, may Out, hard to tell. Continue to just get name calling and preaching.
> 
> RI marinas have been launching boats and have been open since March. I went in the water the last week of March. It's been a month already. I'd say 2/3rds or more of the fleet is splashed where I am. It's ahead of schedule, if anything, due to favorable weather. Not many out sailing, most are commissioning. By this time of year, I'd be living aboard for three weeks already. We don't bother, because no restaurants are open and shopping to cook three meals aboard is not what we feel like doing right now. Too much disarray with commissioning. That's not the problem, its the coming and going that I asked about. It's impractical for anyone to come from out of state, only residents. These laws will be on the books for at least another three weeks. The out of state residents have a claim, IMO. It was grossly unfair. Smarter restrictions could have been put in place, such as not leaving the dock to go other marinas, only household residents aboard, masks, etc. But having the National Guard pull them over to forcibly quarantine was right out of some nefarious manifesto.
> 
> I asked very directly about marina safety protocol thoughts. Folks are at open marinas all over the country, right now, every day. RI DEM has published their own guidelines. If everyone is masked, when moving about the marina and washes their hands, I'm failing to see how the disease would spread any more than in our crowded grocery stores, where the entire population frequents. We need smart ways of reducing spread, not draconian brute force. We especially need to understand better methods, in order to avoid a full shut down the next time.


So what we are seeing is a gradual measured approach to restarting the pleasure watercraft usage. It's been less than a month ( quite a short time) since the first restrictions started. Personally I don't see what was done was draconian but met the perceived crisis at the time and what we knew about the virus and it's spread.

When we go back and rewrite history remember there were no way to test when first imposed. The predicted spread was very quick and large. Public health is the primary importance as it should be. Saving lives is the number one importance as it should be. The same people who whine about not being able to joyride would have been extremely highly critical if the was no blunting of the curve and tens of thousands more died because we weren't strict enough in the beginning. Remember opinions are based now on the SUCCESS of those perceived draconian restrictions.

Bravo to the governors of the states to figure this out. Partnering with colleagues is smart. We are a society of open borders. People can travel so easily. I am thankful they erred on the side of ALL the people and didn't bend to the special interests of the wealthy. Safety first we all preach, until it restricts us.

It's great that personal watercraft use is now ok ( not here in MD yet). So is the next complaint the restaurants aren't open yet? We still must practice distancing even though we will see examples of people not doing it.

Hoping Governor Hogan hs gotten enough positive results from the "draconian" restrictions to believe that it's a safe time to allow us to go use our boats.


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## Ken111 (Jan 8, 2020)

Don L said:


> Marinas here in Florida being open/closed still seems dependent on its own decision. That also seems to apply to the degree of open/closed. It seems to depend somewhat on county/town. There are still lots of boats out joy riding and fishing (way to many in my opinion).
> 
> This is based on a very small sample as i came at Lake Worth, got fuel at Riveria Beach Marine, went back out and outside to Fort Pierce and then down ICW to Vero Beach. But after being in the Bahamas I was shocked at the number of boats and people out.


So just to make sure I have this correct...

You are sitting on your boat, looking out at other boat owners enjoying their boats... and this upsets you.

Let me ask you this.. are some boat owners 'more equal' than other boat owners? If you can be on your boat, why shouldn't other boat owners be allowed to use their boats?


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Uh....BUSTED!

:2 boat::2 boat:


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Ken111 said:


> So just to make sure I have this correct...
> 
> You are sitting on your boat, looking out at other boat owners enjoying their boats... and this upsets you.
> 
> Let me ask you this.. are some boat owners 'more equal' than other boat owners? If you can be on your boat, why shouldn't other boat owners be allowed to use their boats?


No value judgement from me one way or the other

Don is a long term cruiser and his boat is his home. I'm not sure that gives him a special dispensation as he can't just leave the boat. On the other hand

if the waters the shore contacts with are not being used for recreational boating, by executive order, it should mean no contact with shore the same as the people in marinas have.

I have been schooled on here about the waters usage being a federal issue, but contact with the land is a state issue.

Many cruisers have returned to the US and are sheltering in place until restrictions are lifted. This to me makes sense and is keeping with the spirit of the law. The land residents have had stay in place laws to prevent spread.
Other cruisers feel it's ok to sail on to parts of the NE where there final destination is. Again that should be OK as the waters are governed federally. 
We the disconnect is , is that some feel that they should be able to come ashore, reprovision and then return to their boats with no quarantining .

I have offered a few of my friends to shop for them if they are running low on stuff. They can stop at our dock and I can quickly transfer them to them.

What I don't agree with is them "visiting " all over the Maryland Chesapeake shores as they leisurely take their time heading north. We are in a no recreational boating situation. If they stay in one spot anchored....that's staying in place.

No one should have special privileges however reasonable accommodations should be made while following the law every other citizen on land must follow.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

Ken111 said:


> So just to make sure I have this correct...
> 
> You are sitting on your boat, looking out at other boat owners enjoying their boats... and this upsets you.
> 
> Let me ask you this.. are some boat owners 'more equal' than other boat owners? If you can be on your boat, why shouldn't other boat owners be allowed to use their boats?


Maybe because I am NOT boating! I LIVE on my boat and this is where I shelter in place. In the past 5 weeks I have been to store twice and the only movement of the boat was to get from the Bahamas to right where I am.

Compare that to those of you whining about not being able to leave your house and go for a joy ride!


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## Ken111 (Jan 8, 2020)

Don L said:


> Maybe because I am NOT boating! I LIVE on my boat and this is where I shelter in place. In the past 5 weeks I have been to store twice and the only movement of the boat was to get from the Bahamas to right where I am.
> 
> Compare that to those of you whining about not being able to leave your house and go for a joy ride!


How are the people on shore supposed to know this? Maybe it's possible the sight of you anchored out in their harbor was the inspiration they needed to launch and "joyride?" Maybe boating is also their way of sheltering away from others.

Personally, I don't find there to be any difference between what you're doing and what the other boaters are doing. You're sitting on your boat looking at them... and they're sitting on their boats looking at you. Equal.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Don L said:


> Maybe because I am NOT boating! I LIVE on my boat and this is where I shelter in place. In the past 5 weeks I have been to store twice and the only movement of the boat was to get from the Bahamas to right where I am.
> 
> Compare that to those of you whining about not being able to leave your house and go for a joy ride!


Don I defended your right to do that. You are staying in place. 
It's the nomads I have issue with. 
I think you are following the spirit of the law.
Is Florida a "Stay in Place "state?


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## Ken111 (Jan 8, 2020)

chef2sail said:


> Don I defended your right to do that. You are staying in place.
> It's the nomads I have issue with.
> I think you are following the spirit of the law.
> Is Florida a "Stay in Place "state?


Is there a BIG sign on Don's boat to indicate his special status, so other boat owners know it's OK in YOUR opinion for him to be on his non-nomadic boat?

I'm presently living full-time aboard our boat and don't claim any special status. Please tell me... how can I obtain the application for special status?


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Ken111 said:


> Personally, I don't find there to be any difference between what you're doing and what the other boaters are doing. You're sitting on your boat looking at them... and they're sitting on their boats looking at you. Equal.


This is stunningly obtuse. Don, like us, lives on his boat and has no other residence. He doesn't even have an automobile. There is no where else for him to shelter in place. He doesn't have a choice of moving between his house and his boat, and he is in a marina sheltering in place, not out joyriding in a secondary recreational vessel.

There is a world of difference between what he is doing and what other boaters are doing. It is a similar difference of you staying in your apartment, and others traveling around on vacations moving in and out of the airbnb apartments next to yours, using the same shared facilities.

Mark


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

I drove a car for a 1/2 day last year and it was great fun.
Id like to do it again this year.


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## Ken111 (Jan 8, 2020)

colemj said:


> This is stunningly obtuse. Don, like us, lives on his boat and has no other residence. He doesn't even have an automobile. There is no where else for him to shelter in place. He doesn't have a choice of moving between his house and his boat, and he is in a marina sheltering in place, not out joyriding in a secondary recreational vessel.
> 
> There is a world of difference between what he is doing and what other boaters are doing. It is a similar difference of you staying in your apartment, and others traveling around on vacations moving in and out of the airbnb apartments next to yours, using the same shared facilities.
> 
> Mark


How are the other boat owners supposed to know of Don's special status? Maybe the others are special too.

'Seems to me that some boat owners feel that they're 'more equal' than other boat owners.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Ken111 said:


> Maybe the others are special too.


That's one way to put it...

Mark


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

RegisteredUser said:


> I drove a car for a 1/2 day last year and it was great fun.
> Id like to do it again this year.


Isn't it funny how something you did for decades that became an unconscious activity like breathing becomes so white-knuckled and strange when you haven't done it for a while? We once went 5 years without ever driving an automobile, and only riding in a couple of buses and maybe a taxi or two over that time. The first time we rented a car after that period, neither of us wanted the responsibility of driving it. And what seemed like normal traffic in the past seems nucking futs to us now.

Mark


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Ken111 said:


> 'Seems to me that some boat owners feel that they're 'more equal' than other boat owners.


In this case, some are. If there are shelter in place orders, people whose only place is their boat are more equal to staying on it than others who have a house as their primary residence.

Similarly, if one has a boat as their primary residence to shelter in place on, they are less equal to a house owner wrt them sheltering in the airbnb next to that house.

Mark


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

colemj said:


> Isn't it funny how something you did for decades that became an unconscious activity like breathing becomes so white-knuckled and strange when you haven't done it for a while? We once went 5 years without ever driving an automobile, and only riding in a couple of buses and maybe a taxi or two over that time. The first time we rented a car after that period, neither of us wanted the responsibility of driving it. And what seemed like normal traffic in the past seems nucking futs to us now.
> 
> Mark


This is drift. Good choice for you both not using a car. It's not all bad you know. There are plenty more places to see as well as stops along the way other than the white knuckle type. If it scares you to now drive it's probably good you dont?????


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

chef2sail said:


> Good choice for you both not using a car.


Not so much a choice as it is no place to put a car on the boat and take it around with us. When we knew we were going to spend the next couple of years in the US and Bahamas, we bought a cheap car.

Driving the beltway around Baltimore or I95 in South Florida still leaves me shaking my head...

Mark


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I think the discussion is about marinas and how we can safely operate within them. Any discussion of a boat off the coast, without masses aboard, is really moot. They simply can't be spreading disease. They're just a target, for daring to enjoy themselves right now. If, however, they have non-household members with them, fire away. 

Again, the question is, all wear masks around the marine, when not aboard your own boat. Wash your hands well. Is this good enough?

Suffering, restricting pleasure, practicing chastity or whatever, just for the appearance of it, is neither a virtue, nor a prophylactic for covid. Simply need to be smart about it.


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> LOL. It was not an ad hominem, directed at anyone or any other posted question, like the rhetoric filled have been and continue. Especially, the stay at home preaching, which is usually a reply to different legit question, not should I stay home. Did anyone answer the actual question, may Out, hard to tell. Continue to just get name calling and preaching.


Really, not ad hominem? This is what you said:

"Haters hate. The choir doesn't need to constantly answer these questions with preaching we all need to repent and stay inside"

You don't think this would come over as a tad offensive to someone who defends (ehm, sorry, 'preaches') social distancing?


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

The individual can do a lot, but the marina must disinfect everything constantly and have strict policies about how boat owners act. Its how they execute their plan to keep everyone safe that will really make the difference. Where we used to live and let live, now we complain by phone,


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Sal Paradise said:


> The individual can do a lot, but the marina must disinfect everything constantly and have strict policies about how boat owners act. Its how they execute their plan to keep everyone safe that will really make the difference. Where we used to live and let live, now we complain by phone,


Or internet blog


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

It is always fulfilling when you realize you did the right thing months ago by putting someone on your ignore list :wink On the other hand there is also satisfaction in watching an idiot dig himself into a deeper hole instead of shutting up.

Cruisers are fully aware of the pros and cons of living on a boat and cruising around. Once the the moving around, seeing new places, meeting new are removed and all you have is a boat at anchor/mooring all that really remains are the cons.

BTW I am pretty sure the pontoon boats and 12-15’ run about boats driving by my mooring on the way into the mangrove channels are not live aboard or cruisers. Just as I am sure all the personal boats out fishing off the coast I saw on my way to this mooring aren’t.


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## Ken111 (Jan 8, 2020)

Don L said:


> It is always fulfilling when you realize you did the right thing months ago by putting someone on your ignore list :wink On the other hand there is also satisfaction in watching an idiot dig himself into a deeper hole instead of shutting up.
> 
> Cruisers are fully aware of the pros and cons of living on a boat and cruising around. Once the the moving around, seeing new places, meeting new are removed and all you have is a boat at anchor/mooring all that really remains are the cons.
> 
> BTW I am pretty sure the pontoon boats and 12-15' run about boats driving by my mooring on the way into the mangrove channels are not live aboard or cruisers. Just as I am sure all the personal boats out fishing off the coast I saw on my way to this mooring aren't.


So... you're on a mooring, sitting on your boat watching other boaters pass by and condemning them for doing exactly what you're doing. If I'm not mistaken, you also own a house in Florida just like the other boaters probably also have. So why is it NOT OK for them to have a nice time on their boat, but it's perfectly fine and dandy for you to sit there and have a good time on your boat? Why don't you go stay and shelter in your Florida home like you want the other boaters to do?


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

I expected entertainment, so I see the hole get deeper. Since it seems someone doesn't, or can not, “get it” i expect they will keep digging


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Sal Paradise said:


> The individual can do a lot, but the marina must disinfect everything constantly and have strict policies about how boat owners act. Its how they execute their plan to keep everyone safe that will really make the difference. Where we used to live and let live, now we complain by phone,


Strict policies, for sure. Masks, keep people out of close quarters in offices, etc. What do they need to disinfect that the individual couldn't address by washing their own hands? I would certainly want to use a piece of towel to open the head door to get out anyway, as disinfecting can't be done continuously. However, seems pretty manageable.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

I have been doing inspections on large commercial construction sites. I imagine it is similar. Everyone has a mask, everyone has to sign in and out. No eating or drinking together. Not a lot of socializing or chit chat. Hand sanitizer around. Everyone eats in their car. Lot of texting. Phones are used like walkie talkies. Otherwise it isn't a great change.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

I checked my log from last year. I sailed from winter storage on 11 May. The year before it was on 17 April.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

SanderO said:


> I checked my log from last year. I sailed from winter storage on 11 May. The year before it was on 17 April.


You're in the range then?????


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

Much has been written but still more vagueness regarding boat launches-


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

With the opening of marinas in NY (with restrictions), it looks like boat launching at my club is back on track. Big question is what launch service will look like. I suspect masks required and a limit on how many carried at one time. Luckily our fleet is pretty compact with no long runs from dock to the boats.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

This will be an interesting experiment here on the Great Lakes. In Ontario, which encompases all the Canadian GL's, marinas remain closed. Just across the water will be NY's marinas which are opening.

I sure hope it goes well, but we have to expect some sort of second wave.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

MikeOReilly said:


> This will be an interesting experiment here on the Great Lakes. In Ontario, which encompases all the Canadian GL's, marinas remain closed. Just across the water will be NY's marinas which are opening.
> 
> I sure hope it goes well, but we have to expect some sort of second wave.


The big factor to opening safely seems to be testing. Like testing everyone. The U.S. is floundering, having now defaulted to the states - and the states can't print money so that will be extremely slow.

Where is Canada on ramping up testing?


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Sal Paradise said:


> The big factor to opening safely seems to be testing. Like testing everyone. The U.S. is floundering, having now defaulted to the states - and the states can't print money so that will be extremely slow.
> 
> Where is Canada on ramping up testing?


Hmmm, to be honest, I didn't really know. So I had to look. It seems we're somewhere in the middle of the pack, which is pretty typical for Canada .

This info graphic has Canada's rate of testing (per one million) at 1469. According to this the USA rate is 136. The top testers in this dataset are Norway (6,429/M) and South Korea (6,182/M). The worst are places like Indonesia (6) and India (10).

https://graphics.reuters.com/HEALTH-CORONAVIRUS-GLOBAL-TESTING/0100B5LC45H/

But I assume these rates are highly variable between our various provinces/states, and regions. I know Ontario has been criticized for having the lowest rate in Canada amongst the other provinces. Although maybe this is still pretty good internationally.


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

This was sent sent out this week by Coneys Marine in Huntington, NY:

As of today, Governor Cuomo has amended the Covid-19 executive order to allow boat yards and marinas to operate with strict social distancing and sanitization protocols.

Due to the delay in opening, we are currently operating roughly 4 weeks behind schedule. In addition to these delays, the additional safety measures mean that we will be operating at a slower than normal pace.

1. In accordance with the law, we will be practicing strict safety measures while working. Our team will be wearing personal protective equipment and social distancing - standard commissioning tasks will take longer than normal.

2. Please take into consideration there can be up to 10 different people working on your boat during normal launching and commissioning. We recommend taking safety measures to disinfect and sanitize your boat when you come on board.

3. Work Orders - we will prioritize essential work to get your boat launched and ready to sail in a timely manner. Non-essential work will be completed at a later date.

4. Coneys Launch Service - we will be limiting launch service to 2 persons per ride. PPE (face protection and gloves) will be mandatory for all passengers. Please refer to the posted signs at the dock or call our office for the latest launch hours.

5. Gold Star Launch Service - will be operating - please refer to the Town of Huntington website for the latest information: Coronavirus (COVID-19) Preparedness - Town of Huntington, Long Island, New York

6. Office and Store - will be closed to the public but orders can be taken by phone or email.

7. Yard - will be accessed by appointment only. This is for your safety and to better maintain social distancing. PPE (face protection and gloves) will be mandatory. To maintain safety, we will wait 48 hours to work on your boat after you have been on board.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Opening also means you can get to your boat and leave. The snow birders usuals fly down in the fall. Sail the Caribbean and leave once around Xmas time then return. Then leave in the spring. Most have 4 flights per year. The live aboards have two passages a year. They either don’t have a dirt dwelling or want to avoid the hurricane season insurance hit. Either situation is dependent upon open borders. Different islands have different rules but generally right of return is honored by all countries and there’s no problem leaving but still great difficulty entering a country for which you aren’t a citizen. 
So there remains an insurmountable problem for all Caribbean cruisers. If you have a boat in the Caribbean unless it’s in a French island and you are French and there’s a flight you can’t get to your boat. Hurricane season is coming. Most boats who normally go to Trinidad or Grenada didn’t get there. Many of the boats who return to the states or Europe didn’t leave. 
The islands acted wisely in shutting out new foreign citizens from entering. Now there are many who personally left but can’t return to their boats.
The big concern is keeping the boat safe and being able to return to the boat before the predicted second wave of covid in the fall. What you hear from friends still in the Caribbean it sure don’t look good. Sailors are lumped with resort/cruise ship people in government thinking. Foreigner who can bring infection in. Think it very unlikely we will get special treatment. Unless something dramatic occurs many won’t see their boats or be stuck in the Caribbean for as long as a year or two. I had (at big expense) a cloth cover built and placed on the boat in expectation of this. My boat budget is nearly twice my usual costs due to covid and I don’t even get to cruise the damn thing. Still, that’s just a whine as I’m home and hopefully safe. Many of my friends are up the creek. Either bleeding money they don’t have due to business being shut down, facing huge expenses on a fixed income or stuck away from when there’s family obligations they really have to meet. 
Unlike people complaining about not being able to daysail this crowd is facing huge life disruptions and the emotional stress that follows.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

outbound said:


> Opening also means you can get to your boat and leave. The snow birders usuals fly down in the fall. Sail the Caribbean and leave once around Xmas time then return. Then leave in the spring. Most have 4 flights per year. The live aboards have two passages a year. They either don't have a dirt dwelling or want to avoid the hurricane season insurance hit. Either situation is dependent upon open borders. Different islands have different rules but generally right of return is honored by all countries and there's no problem leaving but still great difficulty entering a country for which you aren't a citizen.
> So there remains an insurmountable problem for all Caribbean cruisers. If you have a boat in the Caribbean unless it's in a French island and you are French and there's a flight you can't get to your boat. Hurricane season is coming. Most boats who normally go to Trinidad or Grenada didn't get there. Many of the boats who return to the states or Europe didn't leave.
> The islands acted wisely in shutting out new foreign citizens from entering. Now there are many who personally left but can't return to their boats.
> The big concern is keeping the boat safe and being able to return to the boat before the predicted second wave of covid in the fall. What you hear from friends still in the Caribbean it sure don't look good. Sailors are lumped with resort/cruise ship people in government thinking. Foreigner who can bring infection in. Think it very unlikely we will get special treatment. Unless something dramatic occurs many won't see their boats or be stuck in the Caribbean for as long as a year or two. I had (at big expense) a cloth cover built and placed on the boat in expectation of this. My boat budget is nearly twice my usual costs due to covid and I don't even get to cruise the damn thing. Still, that's just a whine as I'm home and hopefully safe. Many of my friends are up the creek. Either bleeding money they don't have due to business being shut down, facing huge expenses on a fixed income or stuck away from when there's family obligations they really have to meet.
> Unlike people complaining about not being able to daysail this crowd is facing huge life disruptions and the emotional stress that follows.


That's were the State Department May need to get involved. Had this happen one year to a friend who the country ( Grenada) wouldnt let him fly back because he had a DUI he was charged with but had skipped out. ( by boat of course) . They wanted money in fines and then banned him from from re -entering


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## CharlzO (Nov 12, 2013)

Our marina also has reopened with restrictions. General safety - distance yourself from others (outside of family you may already be in closer proximity to), wear a mask when on property aside from on your own boat, limit contact with staff when possible and use common sense doing so, and the bathrooms and common areas are temporarily closed while they continue to sort out the best ways for those. I told someone that the other day and they screamed "They have to have those open!" Um... tell that to every restaurant allowing carry-out right now, I guess? Doesn't bother me, though it would be nice to have the showers back soon. I do a lot of little piddly projects that always end up with either me sweating in the summer, or just dirty from crawling around. Again, I'll adjust. After all, I can jump in the lake with some soap. The bigger part is the launching. They want to do most of the launching on their own, to minimize risk. They've asked everyone to please check out their boats ahead of time and ensure they're ready, and then they will launch and slip them as they are able. I'm sure if someone needs to be in attendance, they will allow it though it might be again, at a distance. I have no problem letting them launch mine, and will be more than happy to watch from the marina's webcam from home until it's in the water. From there, it'll be a straight shot from the car to the boat and to isolation and peace on the water. It's crazy, how the season is in effect actually just beginning anyway, but it feels like it's been on hold for months already. Maybe I'm paranoid after losing a couple months last year due to flooding.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

outbound said:


> ....So there remains an insurmountable problem for all Caribbean cruisers. If you have a boat in the Caribbean unless it's in a French island and you are French and there's a flight you can't get to your boat.....


You made me wonder. Do you think any EU country citizenship counts, or must it be specifically French for the French islands? Can the French turn away an EU citizen?

My wife is a dual British citizen, but Brexit seems to have shut EU advantages off. I think. I actually qualify for EU citizenship, but never pursued it. My Grandmother immigrated to the US and I was born early enough to retain legacy citizenship. They've long since ended the grandfathering. Maybe long term Caribbean cruising would be very useful to have dual USA/EU citizenship.

If you can get a commercial flight to Puerto Rico, I'll bet there is always a way to figure out how to get to the other islands. While expensive, even a small prop charter might be viable. Jets are thousands per hour, but the prop puddle jumpers are much less. It's never economical to an airline ticket, but gets closer the more seats you fill. Given boat surprises in the thousands, a private charter may just be another one of those boat buck things.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

Outbound,

As u ya ou know we are in Dominca and you described the situation well. We normally leave our boat here, fly to the states to torment kids, and then drive to our summer home in Canada. Well THAT plan is shot to hell.

We are between sailing back to states, and then dealing with hurricane season there while being live aboards OR staying down here and running south to dodge hurricanes. 

Neither is really a terrible decision. Neither is ideal.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

No problem leaving the problem is getting in once you’re there. They don’t care how you got there they just won’t let you in. Just make you turn around and leave. Other than those that are a part of France they are independent countries and are closed. Closed period.
Have friends with dual Slovenian/US citizenship. They left their Amel in Martinique. They can’t get back to her. My boat is in St.Lucia I can’t get back until borders open and flights return. Unfortunately. there’s no way around it. If you’ve left your boat you aren’t getting back to her anytime soon. If you’re at a particular island that’s where your boat is going to stay unless you can sail back to your country of origin


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

To clarify my EU citizenship question, I understand there are international boarder crossing restrictions, at the moment, that restrict flights between countries. My theoretical charter point was for a time, when it's legal, but the airlines may not yet have restored service.

My real curiosity, however, was whether one could be turned away from a French Island, if you sailed in with an EU passport? Does an EU passport provide more flexibility, if one happened to get stuck in the Caribbean, during the next shutdown.


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## alanr77 (Jul 24, 2009)

outbound said:


> No problem leaving the problem is getting in once you're there. They don't care how you got there they just won't let you in. Just make you turn around and leave. Other than those that are a part of France they are independent countries and are closed. Closed period.
> Have friends with dual Slovenian/US citizenship. They left their Amel in Martinique. They can't get back to her. My boat is in St.Lucia I can't get back until borders open and flights return. Unfortunately. there's no way around it. If you've left your boat you aren't getting back to her anytime soon. If you're at a particular island that's where your boat is going to stay unless you can sail back to your country of origin


Even within a home country things proved to be difficult. While marinas may be opening, there is a marked difference between transients and current slip holders as I noted in my update post a little while back. Travelers like me are stuck between a rock and a hard place regarding resupplies and ports of entry. Luckily I found ONE marina that let me in. Given the current situ I updated my insurance to cover named storms and therefore have the flexibility to sit in a protected marina in the GofM through hurricane season. Not that I really want to but is what it is. Hard to predict a hurricane season but I think this may have implications for us all soon. Another concern for those traveling northbound from the South Florida/Caribbean areas would be the Erie Canal; opening dates will surely be changed given what's happening there. True irony; when I was at sea for a month I was alone and healthy. Now I'm staying with a friend in a house....who happens to be a BSNRN in an ICU located in Houston proper..... think I may have been safer at sea. SARS-COVID-2 VS Hurricanes...????. What to do.....


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## Greenwave (Jan 12, 2020)

alanr77 said:


> Even within a home country things proved to be difficult. While marinas may be opening, there is a marked difference between transients and current slip holders as I noted in my update post a little while back. Travelers like me are stuck between a rock and a hard place regarding resupplies and ports of entry. Luckily I found ONE marina that let me in. Given the current situ I updated my insurance to cover named storms and therefore have the flexibility to sit in a protected marina in the GofM through hurricane season. Not that I really want to but is what it is. Hard to predict a hurricane season but I think this may have implications for us all soon. Another concern for those traveling northbound from the South Florida/Caribbean areas would be the Erie Canal; opening dates will surely be changed given what's happening there. True irony; when I was at sea for a month I was alone and healthy. Now I'm staying with a friend in a house....who happens to be a BSNRN in an ICU located in Houston proper..... think I may have been safer at sea. SARS-COVID-2 VS Hurricanes...????. What to do.....


Which marina are you hunkered down in?


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## Telesail (Dec 28, 2011)

Minnewaska said:


> To clarify my EU citizenship question, I understand there are international boarder crossing restrictions, at the moment, that restrict flights between countries. My theoretical charter point was for a time, when it's legal, but the airlines may not yet have restored service.
> 
> My real curiosity, however, was whether one could be turned away from a French Island, if you sailed in with an EU passport? Does an EU passport provide more flexibility, if one happened to get stuck in the Caribbean, during the next shutdown.


To your specific question, within Europe and even within the Shengen zone, individual EU members have closed their borders to anyone not from that member state. I imagine that the French Islands have the ability to impose the same restriction but am not 100% sure.


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## alanr77 (Jul 24, 2009)

Greenwave said:


> alanr77 said:
> 
> 
> > Even within a home country things proved to be difficult. While marinas may be opening, there is a marked difference between transients and current slip holders as I noted in my update post a little while back. Travelers like me are stuck between a rock and a hard place regarding resupplies and ports of entry. Luckily I found ONE marina that let me in. Given the current situ I updated my insurance to cover named storms and therefore have the flexibility to sit in a protected marina in the GofM through hurricane season. Not that I really want to but is what it is. Hard to predict a hurricane season but I think this may have implications for us all soon. Another concern for those traveling northbound from the South Florida/Caribbean areas would be the Erie Canal; opening dates will surely be changed given what's happening there. True irony; when I was at sea for a month I was alone and healthy. Now I'm staying with a friend in a house....who happens to be a BSNRN in an ICU located in Houston proper..... think I may have been safer at sea. SARS-COVID-2 VS Hurricanes...????. What to do.....
> ...


Marina Del Sol on Clear Lake near Galveston.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Have a number of friends who for one reason or another can’t repatriate their boats. Usually age of the boat or themselves or very commonly inability to get crew. It’s fairly common to sail and live as a couple but take on one or two crew for passage. Sometimes, increasingly common, insurance demands additional crew even when a couple is quite able to do it themselves. Insurance doesn’t want you to single hand.
Current restrictions means if you have foreign crew they won’t be allowed in the states and if you have US crew they won’t be allowed in to join the boat. So have friends who are stuck. Some sail to a US possession and can get around this snafu. But this may mean taking on live lumber to meet insurance requirements and have crew that can join and leave the boat. No good choices at present. 

As hurricane season approaches expect to see boats that should never do this passage try to do it. Expect to see a higher % than usual get into trouble.

We are very lucky with a good strong blue water boat I can sail by myself. My wife isn’t a sailor but can stand watch with instructions to wake me if wind changes by 10 kts, direction by 10degrees, or if she sees weather or on the radar or an close intercept on AIS. We’ve done that on short ( a couple of hundred mile) passages. She generally wakes me well before the above as she’s a nervous nelly. But I get enough sleep to function. However, when looking at this back we left St.Lucia March 21. The concern is always to have someone who can reliably run the boat in the snot if you need to go below to fix something or you get hurt or sick. We thought about just running the trades to Florida. But it’s not island hopping. It’s really a straight shot passage with either one or two brief stops and limited services at those stops. The big hope of many of my friends is either Trinidad or Grenada open and have berths by June. In St.Lucia as of today government says 15 cases but all recovered. No new cases. Their email to the locals says they are going to continue with restrictions to keep it that way. Suspect Grenada/Trinidad won’t open by June. For myself and my friends just pray for a benign hurricane season.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

outbound said:


> Have a number of friends who for one reason or another can't repatriate their boats. Usually age of the boat or themselves or very commonly inability to get crew. It's fairly common to sail and live as a couple but take on one or two crew for passage. Sometimes, increasingly common, insurance demands additional crew even when a couple is quite able to do it themselves. Insurance doesn't want you to single hand.
> Current restrictions means if you have foreign crew they won't be allowed in the states and if you have US crew they won't be allowed in to join the boat. So have friends who are stuck. Some sail to a US possession and can get around this snafu. But this may mean taking on live lumber to meet insurance requirements and have crew that can join and leave the boat. No good choices at present.
> 
> As hurricane season approaches expect to see boats that should never do this passage try to do it. Expect to see a higher % than usual get into trouble.
> ...


Insurance seems to play a big role in people and their boats offshore especially. I suspect that shorthanded crews that get into serious trouble won't make it to collect an insurance claim which may be part of their estate.

I've done many trips to and from the Caribe back in the 90s and a few in the 00s. I did have crew on a few of these passages, but mostly was with one other person... often at the skill level of your wife... but sometimes a competent offshore sailor. Anything can go wrong but if you are careful and prudent your chances of success are good. If you have a well found boat in good conditions with adequate spares and a robust autopilot and the current generation of nav gear passages are definitely doable shorthanded so go for it whether you are covered by insurance or not.

The down wind run to FL was pretty easy and is a good possibility for Caribe boats who need to get out of there for the Hurricane season. From FL you can sail up the coast without using the ICW... making a stop or two for provisions and get yourself all the way up the coast.

It seems to me that you should not NEED crew... just the minimum for watch keeping so you can be reasonably well rested. Single hand is tough but doable, especially as you don't encounter much nor need "all hands on deck" sort of thing. I believe every sailor should set the boat up for single handed sailing. Your AP is a crew who doesn't need to eat or sleep. Your RADAR is a crew for watch keeping who doesn't need to eat of sleep. Your roller furler means you don't need to go to the fore deck for sail changes. It's another crew which doesn't need to eat or sleep.
It would be damn hard for me to single hand without my "mechanical crew".... probably impossible.

I suggest USA boats in the Caribe prepare to run to FL and then up the coast before the Hurricane season... and resume you cruise when corona passes. When I did live aboard I did not leave the boat down there for the hurricane season... I sailed back to NE, cruised locally and then did the ocean passage south back to the Caribbean in the Fall. Why leave your boat in harm's way? If you're a sailor... sail and take care of yourself and your ship. Storing is expensive and can be risky. I know someone who stored and lost their mast when a neighboring stored boat was knocked over in strong winds. They lost a second season getting the stick replaced (insurance claim). Their boat was in a "hole" in Antigua if I recall.

I am curious about the number of claims for offshore incidents... anyone have any data on this?


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Good points
Careful the “ drift police” may be watching....lol....😰

I agree that there will be a substantial change in the risk of taking boats out of the country. As marinas start opening along the east coast you see some making a break for home. It will give pause in the future to those who don’t want to get caught so far away from home as well as possibly taking away one of their options to leave and take their boats out of the hurricane danger zone. 

There are some who have made staying in the Caribbean a life, and they will find their normal June- Oct safe spots. To others who got trapped like Outbound I hope they can get in and get their boats out, or hire someone in the call try to Captain their boats back to the mainland out of hurricane danger. In the end run that may be cheaper than keeping the boat there on land for a season and not being able to. Heck on her , let alone they will go a season of no use. That may also drive potential cruisers from traveling out of the country very far down the island chain.

Maryland Governor Hogan yesterdays proposed the plan and Stage 1 will happen after the 14 day downturn. We are in day 4 of that. It will open recreational boating here. Boats traveling through can already come as long as they aren’t wandering and are traveling through. Some marinas have opened transient spots, however the people on the boats MUST quarantine on them for 14 days. They can order food and provisions to be delivered and get fuel and pump outs. They can’t go into towns. Those passing through if they need to can contact me and I will help arrange them to get their provisions.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Things may have changed.

When I was doing the Caribbean I found a lot of people who "worked" boats and left in the summer when there was no work. Some of these sailors wanted to go north to hang out in Newport for example. They could range in skill level from competent sailors to "deck hands" and servers on big yachts. You could find crew from this lot... and you pay them to crew on your boat. How do you find them? In bars or on the VHF radio. Back then everyone had a VHF dual watch and were listening to 68 for ship to ship banter.

Where there's a will there's a way!

:cut_out_animated_em


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

I’m not trapped. I flew out before restrictions and flights stopped. I’m home enjoying fly fishing on my pond. Life’s good.

I was speaking oF friends. I’ve done 8 passages with my Outbound between Newport or Hampton and the Caribbean. For me it’s a walk in the park. I always keep enough food on board and the boat is kept as close to Bristol as possible. I can always leave for passage at a moment’s notice. We have an AP and a Hydrovane. Crew is a comfort so you can sleep and keep insurance happy. It’s not a necessity. 

Personally don’t think you should ever leave the country unless you and your boat are kept at a level you can sail back to your home port. Wife said she didn’t want to do a double handed passage so we flew out. That was the only reason we didn’t do a straight shot. The hell with Florida. Get her done. Think this covid hing was a wake up call for many. I’ve taken a lot of grief down in the islands for keeping all my safety gear up to date -inspected, replaced when outdated. and repacked. Also for the belt and suspenders approach on everything. Some people just bop between islands which isn’t very demanding on boat nor crew. No watermaker. Electricity from thee engine alternator. Water from land. Groceries every few days. After living like that for years they get complacent. Then this comes along and they have limited options. Similar if your boat can’t tolerate force 8 think you shouldn’t leave.. been laughed at for pissing the funds on a Jordan series drogue and storm sails. Been in one true storm (>48 knots sustained). Never forgot it.


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## Telesail (Dec 28, 2011)

chef2sail said:


> Good points
> Careful the " drift police" may be watching....lol....?
> ...Those passing through if they need to can contact me and I will help arrange them to get their provisions.


That is an extremely generous offer and I may well take you up on that. The new thread you started will be extremely helpful and, with luck, posters will not feel the need to interpret (sincerely and in good faith) your intent and answer with arguments about whether people should even be sailing through the Chesapeake at all or how likely one is to die in Maryland from Covid-19 compared to sheltering in place off the coast of Bolivia (since they still don't accept the outcome of the War of the Pacific)...lol... ?

Just a small point on one of your previous posts. Non-US crews can enter the US as long as they have appropriate visas according to CBP yesterday. The ban apparently applies to where you have come from rather than your nationality. You cannot, of course, use an ESTA on a private boat to enter the US.

Not yet sure how the issue of cruising permits will be handled since CBP seems to be trying to use Roam to maintain social distancing but the agent I spoke to did not know whether they could issue a permit electronically as nobody had arrived since the lockdowns.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

outbound said:


> I'm not trapped. I flew out before restrictions and flights stopped. I'm home enjoying fly fishing on my pond. Life's good.
> 
> I was speaking oF friends. I've done 8 passages with my Outbound between Newport or Hampton and the Caribbean. For me it's a walk in the park. I always keep enough food on board and the boat is kept as close to Bristol as possible. I can always leave for passage at a moment's notice. We have an AP and a Hydrovane. Crew is a comfort so you can sleep and keep insurance happy. It's not a necessity.
> 
> Personally don't think you should ever leave the country unless you and your boat are kept at a level you can sail back to your home port. Wife said she didn't want to do a double handed passage so we flew out. That was the only reason we didn't do a straight shot. The hell with Florida. Get her done. Think this covid hing was a wake up call for many. I've taken a lot of grief down in the islands for keeping all my safety gear up to date -inspected, replaced when outdated. and repacked. Also for the belt and suspenders approach on everything. Some people just bop between islands which isn't very demanding on boat nor crew. No watermaker. Electricity from thee engine alternator. Water from land. Groceries every few days. After living like that for years they get complacent. Then this comes along and they have limited options. Similar if your boat can't tolerate force 8 think you shouldn't leave.. been laughed at for pissing the funds on a Jordan series drogue and storm sails. Been in one true storm (>48 knots sustained). Never forgot it.


Your approach is exactly the intelligent way to do this. Your boat should in perfect repair, with complete spares, provisions and be ready within a hr to head off across the ocean. Of course you don't HAVE to do that but turning a boat in a weekend cruiser or a charter-like boat when you are living offshore is pretty dumb.

But heck probably many people don't have the means not the sensibility to take this approach because almost everything they need can be "purchased locally".

It's really an "independence/self sufficient" mindset. Many clearly don't have it.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

The question at the moment is when marinas will open in reaction to hurricane season. But that is an arbitrary date of June - set by insurance. And also crew size, set by insurance.

This year I decided to drop hull insurance, the boats value is not so high we can’t afford to loose and replace if necessary. And now I have greater freedom to do what is right depending ou the weather and circumstances, as opposed to some actuaries idea of right. A distinct advantage of having a cheap boat. It would emotionally kill me to loose her, but trying to meet insurance goals might also kill me physically. 

So the game now is to watch Grenada and Trinidad and see how they approach opening their waters. Someone laid it out real well the other day. What is needed to know are 4 things
1-when can I move into Grenada
2-what are isolation/quarantine requirements
3- when can I fly out of Grenada
4-when can I fly back into Grenada.

The same questions apply to Trinidad.

Many feel pressure to have these answers well before June 1, to meet insurance probably before May 15 to allow a USA transit. I can’t leave before June 11 because of another commitment. That buys me another month to see how things develop. 

My particular dilemma is if we fly back to the states we have nowhere to stay, unless we go to our Canadian cabin. Which is a whole different set of international and interprovincial borders to cross. AND how do you pee and poo on the interstate? 

It would be helpful if the islands would at least tell us WHEN they will tell us, so as to recognize the understand the necessity. 

What is interesting is BOTH Grenada and Trinidad have asked boaters for their definite plans in some detail without stating that those plans will be allowed or disallowed. 

I don’t anticipate a problem in the USA. We are both citizens, he seen nothing to indicate the CBP silo joe not allow entry. Individual STATES may be a PINTA but even that should be resolving by late June. We have had positive contact with 2 marinas and I expect the situation to generally get better, with the possibility of localized set backs.

So we wait for the paint to dry, at this point I would accept tacky.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

outbound said:


> I'm not trapped. I flew out before restrictions and flights stopped. I'm home enjoying fly fishing on my pond. Life's good.
> 
> I was speaking oF friends. I've done 8 passages with my Outbound between Newport or Hampton and the Caribbean. For me it's a walk in the park. I always keep enough food on board and the boat is kept as close to Bristol as possible. I can always leave for passage at a moment's notice. We have an AP and a Hydrovane. Crew is a comfort so you can sleep and keep insurance happy. It's not a necessity.
> 
> Personally don't think you should ever leave the country unless you and your boat are kept at a level you can sail back to your home port. Wife said she didn't want to do a double handed passage so we flew out. That was the only reason we didn't do a straight shot. The hell with Florida. Get her done. Think this covid hing was a wake up call for many. I've taken a lot of grief down in the islands for keeping all my safety gear up to date -inspected, replaced when outdated. and repacked. Also for the belt and suspenders approach on everything. Some people just bop between islands which isn't very demanding on boat nor crew. No watermaker. Electricity from thee engine alternator. Water from land. Groceries every few days. After living like that for years they get complacent. Then this comes along and they have limited options. Similar if your boat can't tolerate force 8 think you shouldn't leave.. been laughed at for pissing the funds on a Jordan series drogue and storm sails. Been in one true storm (>48 knots sustained). Never forgot it.


Sorry...the boats trapped not you


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

I found a slip starting in Mid May in Jacksonville Florida with my first try. A friend has one lined up at StAugustine. Another has one lined up in Annapolis June/July without much trouble.

Just info that some marinas are open and accepting new boats.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Hypeer as the bent phallus said” I feel your pain brother” . Yours unfortunately is a fairly common situation. Having empty bedrooms offered my house several times to various friends if they can get here. One couple is on a 54’ Charlie Morgan ketch which is ~35_40 years old so they’re nervous. We buddy boated with them in the past. Once due to no frig. Another time their engine was iffy so they stayed put for while waiting for parts. He was a professional mariner on ships. Very skilled and has good judgment. He’s hoping to get to Trinidad like you as are many couples.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

I just sent this to Gov. Hogan on the Maryland state website ("Tourism" topic). Others in a similar situation may want to do the same:



> Dear Governor Hogan,
> 
> I respect and admire the courageous steps you have taken to protect the residents of Maryland.
> 
> ...


https://governor.maryland.gov/contact-the-governor/


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

chef2sail said:


> ...Maryland Governor Hogan yesterdays proposed the plan and Stage 1 will happen after the 14 day downturn. We are in day 4 of that. It will open recreational boating here. Boats traveling through can already come as long as they aren't wandering and are traveling through. Some marinas have opened transient spots, however the people on the boats MUST quarantine on them for 14 days. They can order food and provisions to be delivered and get fuel and pump outs. They can't go into towns. Those passing through if they need to can contact me and I will help arrange them to get their provisions.


While your offer to help transient boaters is gracious and helpful, and removes the uncertainties that transient boaters may face, it may not actually be required. Here's an excerpt from Interpretive Guidance COVID19-08

https://governor.maryland.gov/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/OLC-Interpretive-Guidance-COVID19-08.pdf



> *2. Commuters To/From Adjacent States, and Persons Transiting Maryland.* In connection with the announcement of the Order, Governor Hogan stated that persons traveling into Maryland from anywhere outside Maryland are required to self-quarantine for 14 days. This is not expected of:
> 
> a. persons who regularly commute into Maryland from an adjacent state or the District of Columbia, or vice-versa, unless such persons should otherwise self-quarantine under applicable CDC or MDH guidance (for example, because of recent travel to the New York/Tri-State area); and
> 
> b. persons transiting through Maryland who have only minimal contact with Maryland, i.e., only stopping for fuel, food, or other necessary supplies, not making contact with anyone for more than three minutes at a distance of less than six feet.


Paragraph a refers to those of us who commute to/from Maryland every weekend (i.e., "regularly") to enjoy our boats/vacation homes/RVs, etc. "Regular" does not have to mean daily, and "commute" does not have to mean to/from work. A "regular" weekend commute to/from a marina would fit this description. So once Hogan lifts the ban on recreational boating and allows car travel to marinas, residents of all states (except, apparently, "Tri-state" area) who have boats in Maryland can enjoy their vessels with equal standing.

Paragraph b refers to transient boaters who need to provision their boats on the way through the waterways.

The letter to Gov. Hogan that I posted above appears to have been unnecessary. We already have our answer, unless he issues new orders that undo this.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

> not making contact with anyone for more than three minutes at a distance of less than six feet.


Good luck with this in a grocery store. Aisle and meat, vegetable areas are not built for 6 ft of separation. 
While contact may remain minimal, it only takes one cough or sneeze.

Yesterday the manager of Wegmanns had to enforce the wearing mask policy, and also asked a lady who brought three touchy feeling running kids to control them, or send them outside. Created a loud confrontation from her.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

chef2sail said:


> Good luck with this in a grocery store. Aisle and meat, vegetable areas are not built for 6 ft of separation.
> While contact may remain minimal, it only takes one cough or sneeze.
> 
> Yesterday the manager of Wegmanns had to enforce the wearing mask policy, and also asked a lady who brought three touchy feeling running kids to control them, or send them outside. Created a loud confrontation from her.


some markets use one way traffic in aisles to maintain 6'


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

chef2sail said:


> Good luck with this in a grocery store. Aisle and meat, vegetable areas are not built for 6 ft of separation.
> While contact may remain minimal, it only takes one cough or sneeze.


I was only quoting the regulation as stated in Gov. Hogan's executive order. I am not defending whether it is healthy practice. If you read it carefully, it says that you can be less than 6 feet from others as long as you spend less than 3 minutes there. Not a safe practice, but that's the regulation, and it is easy to obey.

The validity of the health risk that you raise is universal for Maryland residents and out-of-state residents. There's nothing magic about a Maryland resident in a Maryland grocery store that makes this issue go away.

The hazard that you highlight is best addressed by minimizing the number of trips to the grocery store, no matter what state you are in.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

I understand that. You aren’t telling me anything I don’t know already . You brought this into play with your comments that they can supposedly go to the store. That actually is up for discussion. And even if they can why should they risk it. I put myself in others shoes and wouldn’t want to go ashore if I didn’t have to right now

I’m sure the Rock Hall residents can’t wait for the boaters and tourists to bring the monster into their community visa via their small grocery store. 

The main point I offered my services was to the cruiser who pretty much has not been in contact with others need not have to expose Themselves to the dangerous part of the process which really isn’t socially distanced. After being By themselves just because they need some supplies they wouldn’t have to risk exposure. That’s why I offered help. No Uber or store risk. 

From my own limited experience cruising 3-4 weeks at a time, we always plan a few stops in towns where there is a place to reprovision. In addition I’ve been fortunate to have made a number of friends on here who live in some of the areas I have cruised who I’ve met and they and others have offered help getting provisions. 

They have helped make our time easier. In the southern Chesapeake a lot of the marinas have courtesy cars, but right now the ones I know are not allowing their use. 

In was in this light I offered my help, and kind of hoped others might step up if they saw it was a possibility to help a fellow sailor. Even if I am the only one who offered , that’s ok.

I have already had a couple of people ask me. It isn’t often you can pay it forward or really help others.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Unquestionably, what you are offering is gracious, helpful, and reduces exposure risk for all. Sorry if I implied otherwise.

However, the bare minimum requirements would allow boaters to go to the store, though the Uber and loaner car issues are a risk factor that is worth avoiding. 

We love walking up to Bayside Market, but would gladly bring in all our needed provisions if they don’t want our business. We’d love to do take-out from Bay Wolf and Ford’s, but likewise would stay away if they prefer. In Swarthmore they’re asking us to do take out 2-3 times a week to keep local businesses afloat. Maybe Rock Hall thinks differently.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

TakeFive said:


> Unquestionably, what you are offering is gracious, helpful, and reduces exposure risk for all. Sorry if I implied otherwise.
> 
> However, the bare minimum requirements would allow boaters to go to the store, though the Uber and loaner car issues are a risk factor that is worth avoiding.
> 
> We love walking up to Bayside Market, but would gladly bring in all our needed provisions if they don't want our business. We'd love to do take-out from Bay Wolf and Ford's, but likewise would stay away if they prefer. In Swarthmore they're asking us to do take out 2-3 times a week to keep local businesses afloat. Maybe Rock Hall thinks differently.


I think every community is looking at things differently. I have a brother who lives in Swathmore. I was from Bryan Mayr so I know the area well. 
Swathmore is like where I live here in the suburbs of an urban city. Actually maybe even a more densely populated. It's great the community is supporting the restaurants there.

Not sure how sleepy red neck Rock Hall feels. I'm sure they want business in the businesses. I can't speak for them.

It's good your marina is open now. It's good you got a different interpretation than you though about quarentining for 14 days on the boat if you brought it there.

We are on day 4 with the downward trend. 10 more before Hogan decides on advancing into step 1. My wife says that things have started decreasing in her hospital a liittle, but everyone is wary.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

My marina is "Closed to the public." Not sure whether slip holders are "public".

I hope Maryland is on a downward trend. Not so sure based on this:


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

I'm not too thrilled about this, but its a sign of things opening up. I assume at this late date they are selling to shore based fisherman but maybe they are renting slips to these guys. A lot of the marinas rent slips to striper fisherman up until Memorial day and then they switch to summer boaters. 


Tippin' Scales Sportfishing is at Rondout Yacht Basin.
11 hrs · Connelly · 
New location announcement!

As originally planned the Bait Shop will finally be opening up at Rondout Yacht Basin effective Tuesday 4/28 for remainder of Striper season.

I will be serving customers by land and water on the Rondout Creek. The bait trailer will be located directly behind the gas dock.

Hours of operation will be 8-3pm Tuesday thru Saturday and 8-12 on Sunday's.

Will have:

Live Herring
Iced herring
Bloodworms
Sandworms
Terminal tackle, weights, Sabikis & Stoolies.

Capt Pat


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Still not looking good for reopening Maryland to recreational boating. The raw numbers are nowhere close to 14 days of declines. It is possible that these raw numbers are skewed by greater testing, so % positive tests might be going down, but I don't have that data.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

I saw that. Hogan mentioned that there are more data factors than that simple outlook. 
We intend on spending next weekend on the boat. Probably tied up in the marina as we still have to get the dinghy put on. We could possibly just pull out into the creek and anchor. I’d like to get some water running over the bottom paint to avoid slime growth. 

Would be nice to get a few times in before vacation. But I’ll just be happy when the open recreational opening.
It will happen eventually. I’m not going to obsess about it. It will open up when it does.


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## CLOSECALL (Dec 11, 2012)

So stay at home has been lifted in Maryland?


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

CLOSECALL said:


> So stay at home has been lifted in Maryland?


No not at all


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

chef2sail said:


> No not at all


Yeah, I was also confused by your statement: "We intend on spending next weekend on the boat. Probably tied up in the marina as we still have to get the dinghy put on. We could possibly just pull out into the creek and anchor. I'd like to get some water running over the bottom paint to avoid slime growth." That's not stay at home, is it?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

What you do speaks so loudly that I can't hear what you say..... _Ralph Waldo Emerson._


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

That statement was only if the ban is lifted. We follow the law.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Sorry for the confusion. I see by reading what I printed it would be construed I would just violate the MD law. I’d never do that. I should have added that I was waiting for the law to lift and that’s what I’d like to do.


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> What you do speaks so loudly that I can't hear what you say..... _Ralph Waldo Emerson._


:devil


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## Ulladh (Jul 12, 2007)

Gov Wolf announced that marinas and recreational boating in Pennsylvania will be open this Friday with all the social distancing requirements.

I have about two weeks of work to do on the boat before splash, which is just about the same time for splash for me without the pandemic.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> What you do speaks so loudly that I can't hear what you say..... _Ralph Waldo Emerson._


Yes we should all practice what we preach, totally agree.

If the law states you are required to have navigation lights on any motorized vehicle when operating at night, it includes a dinghy rushing or motoring. That's the law.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Just got off the iPad FaceTime-ing with friends stuck at IGY Rodney bay. They report Massy’s shelves are full. No ridiculous hoarding of TP or other things. There are spaces empty on both the 220v and 110v docks. Boats have hauled or left just before the lockdown or heading home. State they’re still waiting to hear if people can go down to Marigot (same district) or even out in the bay just for a change of scenery. Report there’s still spots open to haul and store and the travel lift is operating and the yard to a limited degree. 
They’re still debating if they’re going to wait and see if Grenada opens before hurricane season or haul and get an apartment in St.lucia or sail out. For now they are remaining in the water as are some of my other friends ( a couple on an older boat) who are also quarantining on the same floating pier. There’s very limited contact even between cruising couples. May see each other and wave hi but that’s it. Everyone just stays on their boat. They can do takeout as the restaurants in the marina are open. WiFi is good but they sound bored. Its hot and humid so being plugged in is good as they have AC. 
They say the government is hanging tough and they don’t expect restrictions to lift soon even though there are no new cases. St. Lucia sent their Cuban docs to Martinique. They still have flights to/from France and still have active cases. Big issue in St. Lucia and from other reports true in all the non French is the absence of flights. So you can haul but have no way to get home unless you’re French. 

From other folks told virgins are jammed full. Over 600 boats staging up to get home. With cyclonic systems coming through the east coast every few days I just hope they don’t run in to the snots. Especially if they’re in the stream. We saw gusts to 40 here the other day. Took a ride to our local beach and Mass Bay was wild. Big enough system and the usual counterclockwise rotation meant that although it wasn’t high tide water was up to the sea walls. Wouldn’t look forward to sailing in that kind of stuff and it seems not a week goes by that such a system comes doesn’t through.Personally would wait until middle two weeks of May. More likely to have bigger weather windows and more circumscribed systems so you can dodge them. Hope the SDR crowd does well.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

Finally got to the boatyard yesterday after over a month. Filled the car with under two dollar gas too. BONUS! A lot of the moorings still are not in the harbor including mine. The boatyard docks are half filled but, without the moorings they might run out of places to put the boats. Still it was great to be up in the cockpit and have the water view. Very productive day topping up the charge on the electric propulsion battery bank, drained the bilge, ran new power wires for an additional VHF radio and measured the hanger line spacing for the new sail cover I'm making. Rainy weather the next few days so it's back to my homemade sail loft in the den for more sail cover work.


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## contrarian (Sep 14, 2011)

Having some places totally locked down for Covid 19 and other places wide open is akin to having a peeing section in a swimming pool. :devil


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Arcb said:


> Not really. Ontario and New York State share a significant border.
> 
> Ontario has a population of around 15 million and has around 16 000 covid cases.
> 
> ...


Hard to compare any other area to the state that has NYC with 12 million people within 50 miles. All the airports, all the mass transit, the density lead the figures to be scewed the way it is. Ontario is similar to Many US states with similar demographics.

These density differences will make it hard to open up.

For a while many in the US heartland gloated they weren't affected and didn't need the social distancing. That's been dispelled by the recent meat/ chicken plant virus spread.

The mobster knows no borders.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Rhode Island Member Update
View this email in your browser

Rhode Island Member Update
Dear Safe Harbor Members and Guests -

We hope you, your families, and friends are staying healthy and safe during the COVID-19 outbreak. It has been and continues to be, an enormous privilege and honor for all of us to serve you in this environment. We are excited to deliver some positive news to you today!

The Rhode Island Department of Environmental Management (DEM) has announced a Phase 1 reopening of marinas, boatyards and yacht clubs. Effective today, your Safe Harbor Marinas in Rhode Island are open for business! Please note that our Members and employees must follow the strict guidelines provided by the DEM for reopening. As part of this, our ship stores and chandleries can deliver items to your car or boat or items can be picked up outside the building. Our fuel docks are open and operational.

Also effective today, if you live outside of Rhode Island, you may come to visit or work on your boat. Please keep in mind that you must follow all guidelines of the DEM.

The DEM guidelines include:

A face mask/covering must be worn at all times.
Large gatherings on docks and/or inside buildings are not permitted. (Note that we will break these up if they should occur.)
Please adhere to social distancing guidelines at all times by staying at least 6-feet away from other Members and Safe Harbor employees.
Common areas such as pools, grills, and ice machines will not be available for use until approved by the state of Rhode Island.
When fueling, Members from outside Rhode Island must remain onboard their boats.
Members from outside Rhode Island must return to their home state after their work or visit to their boat is complete.

For full details on the DEM Phase 1 plan, please visit: http://rimta.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/Marina-and-Boatyard-Guidance-43020.pdf

We are hopeful that the DEM Phase 2 plan will be released soon. We will keep you posted on that.

At Safe Harbor, we are eager to get you back on the water for the upcoming boating season. There really is no better place to be.

With gratitude,

Tim Moll
Regional Vice President, Rhode Island
SAFE HARBOR MARINAS

Copyright © 2020 Safe Harbor Cove Haven, All rights reserved.
Thank you for being a valued Member of Safe Harbor Marinas!

Our mailing address is:
Safe Harbor Cove Haven
101 Narragansett Ave
Barrington, RI 02806

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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Seems Ontario is opening marinas for staff and service on Monday (public still not allowed).

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/loca...ients-down-in-ontario-while-testing-is-way-up


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## Ulladh (Jul 12, 2007)

I was at the marina on Friday morning to assess what I need to do over the next few weeks.

Some tree debris in the cockpit from the past few storms, but other than that the boat did well during the "non-essential business" lock down.

Some powerboat were put in during the lock down and power-boaters were working and interacting without face masks or distancing.

Bottom, topside and deck painting this week if the weather permits. I use a 3M painters mask while doing that work and will have my cloth mask for moving about the yard.

Splash when ready I am told.

Today I will be getting my daughter started on building a dry-stone retaining wall.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Arcb said:


> Seems Ontario is opening marinas for staff and service on Monday (public still not allowed).
> 
> https://ottawacitizen.com/news/loca...ients-down-in-ontario-while-testing-is-way-up


Yes. Looks like we're starting to see some light at the end of this tunnel. Hope other provinces (like NL ) follow suit soon.

One thing though, it appears the current easing in Ontario only applies to staffed marinas. The public (i.e. customers) are still not allowed in.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-covid-businesses-reopen-1.5552429


> Marinas may also begin preparations for the recreational boating season by servicing boats and other watercraft and placing boats in the water, but not open to the public. Boats and watercraft must be secured to a dock in the marina until public access is allowed.


This would seem to preclude any DIY yacht clubs and marinas, where owners do all the work. But it's a good first step.


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## Lanealoha (Mar 5, 2017)

"....From other folks told virgins are jammed full"

That made me smile 

On topic though...I've been out on our boat a few weeks ago after not having been to her in a month or so. Here in California, at least in Oxnard, we can sail and use our boats, if they are in the water already, there just isn't any facilities that are open including launches. We had a great sail out to Anacapa Island 2 weeks ago and I'm itching to get back down to her and tidy up some projects and sail a bit too.

Hope you right coasters get some time on the water soon.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

MikeOReilly said:


> ...This would seem to preclude any DIY yacht clubs and marinas, where owners do all the work. But it's a good first step.


If the DIY yacht clubs are private, then it might be argued that they can operate without being open to the public. But those rules probably vary from state to state (or province to province).


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

outbound said:


> Rhode Island Member Update.....


Busier yesterday, mostly with people commissioning. It was sunny and near 70. I saw no parties or groups of more than two. We chatted with our neighbors, from our respective boats, probably 20 feet apart. Everyone (staff and boaters) wore masks on the docks and in the parking lots. I saw a couple of smaller power boats leave the docks, but none with groups aboard. Seems to be working fine.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Schooner Cove, Stamford CT
Gorgeous and perfect conditions that I had planned to sail from Stamford to Old Lyme. I chose not to instead to do more of my prep work only because SCYC is 45min closer by car and more convenient to do spring prep. 
All winter covers were removed.
Several couples were working on their boats - cleaning waxing etc. 
Several boats had departed... and did not return in the time I was there (till 4m)
People were wearing PPE when in close proximity, I was alone and did not. 
I did when going to and from my car. No lunch or runs to WestMarine.

You can't enter WestMarine. You call their tel# give them your order and CCard and they bring you items in a paper bag and place it outside the front door as you wait for it (in your car.

I am seeing more traffic... almost normal level yesterday.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Lewisporte Marina in Newfoundland is opening up cautiously. But, the province is still locked down. They are planning to move from Alert Level 5 to #4 on May 11th, but it looks like the quarantine requirement remains. And now there's this message from their Ministry of Health:

"If you do not normally live here, they you have to have some specific (and approved) reason for coming here. &#8230; If you're coming here because you have a seasonal home, and your permanent address is somewhere else, or you are coming here for a vacation, then I'm afraid this year is not the year for you."

They say more info will be forthcoming on what this all means, but it's not sounding great for us "come from aways."


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## MacBlaze (Jan 18, 2016)

MikeOReilly said:


> Lewisporte Marina in Newfoundland is opening up cautiously. But, the province is still locked down. They are planning to move from Alert Level 5 to #4 on May 11th, but it looks like the quarantine requirement remains. And now there's this message from their Ministry of Health:
> 
> "If you do not normally live here, they you have to have some specific (and approved) reason for coming here. &#8230; If you're coming here because you have a seasonal home, and your permanent address is somewhere else, or you are coming here for a vacation, then I'm afraid this year is not the year for you."
> 
> They say more info will be forthcoming on what this all means, but it's not sounding great for us "come from aways."


Aw Mike, so close yet so far...


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

MARYLAND RECREATIONAL BOATING opening tomorrow


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

chef2sail said:


> MARYLAND RECREATIONAL BOATING opening tomorrow


Just in time for the polar blast!


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

SanderO said:


> Just in time for the polar blast!


Yeah I saw that. Saturday looks like some brisk wind too. Steady 20s gusts in the 30s . Sunday more reasonable as 10 knot drop across the board.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

chef2sail said:


> Yeah I saw that. Saturday looks like some brisk wind too. Steady 20s gusts in the 30s . Sunday more reasonable as 10 knot drop across the board.


I passed on a perfect weather window and will wait till maybe the 13th... but the temps are not very high.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

We are about 10 degrees on average warmer. Chessie is 55-58 degrees water temps


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

For those of us who have our boats in Maryland but live outside the state, I would appreciate hearing reports here from anyone who encounters difficulties from law enforcement regarding Maryland's quarantine requirements for those coming from out-of-state. My hope is that Maryland will consider us to fall into the "regular commuter" exception, but I am not aware that this exclusion has been tested.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

I haven’t herd of anyone drawing that distinction of not allowing or restricting out of staters here in Maryland or in any states on the LI Sound.

That being said , If you are worried about it call the Maryland DNR.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

chef2sail said:


> I haven't herd of anyone drawing that distinction of not allowing or restricting out of staters here in Maryland or in any states on the LI Sound.
> 
> That being said , If you are worried about it call the Maryland DNR.


It's premature at this point. The dust hasn't settled yet. Remember, the stay at home order still hasn't been lifted yet, so any car travel in MD is supposed to be for essential needs only. [EDIT: Looks like recreational boating has been defined as "essential", along with other outdoor exercise activities, so car travel to your boat is OK. There is still more dust to settle, IMO.]

But I'd still like to hear if anyone gets hassled by LEAs.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Spoke with my boat management person in St. Lucia. He’s in touch with multiple people inside their government. We talked about a November launch. Unfortunately it’s not looking good. Seems St. Lucia will continue on strict public health measures. Seems in spite of the absence of tourist income which means an 80% drop there’s been little or no push back from the population as unlike here in the states they understand once you’re dead you’re dead for ever. 
Talking with him it was striking how different our countries are. They seem to value the lives of the elderly, and those with prior illness more than us. They seem to understand that public health concerns must take precedence and in the long will mean less economic upheaval. 
Been emailing, text and FaceTime with couple stuck in Le Marin. They are in their 80s and run an Amel and are US/Slovenian citizens. 
They want to come home (have a house in same town as us). No room in Martinique so cant haul there. Trinidad and Grenada still closed. No flights out from any of the Windwards islands to the states. Still stuck. She’s holding up. He has medical issues that are being deferred. Very sad as I worry about his premature death in the absence of the ability to get home not from covid. 
Other friends have left the windwards after bunching up in the virgins. Most made decision to bypass Florida and head for the Chesapeake regardless of the state of opening or available services. Difficulty is for couples with mixed citizenship or those with non US crew. However they figure (and I believe correctly) worse outcome is they will be directed onward to Canada and not be excluded from refit and reprovisioning before leaving. Of course these people are not vectors of disease as they been quarantined on the islands they left, quarantined on passage and can’t be asymptomatic carriers at this point.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

One would think that any crew on a boat arriving to the US would have to undergo testing and then they can clear in, Returning foreign crew on to their own countries is another matter.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

One week ago today, RI opened access to it's marinas to out of state boat owners to "visit or work" on their boat. They were never closed to residents. The oos owners had to leave the state, when done. Interestingly, the requirement for out of state residents to self-quarantine for 14 days was not lifted. As I can follow it, they simply clarified that an out of state boater could enter the state, go to their boat, effectively quarantine aboard, and then leave. One didn't need to wait 14 days, they simply couldn't go anywhere else in the state, unless they had already done their 14 days (ie grocery stores, take out, hardware, etc).

Last weekend was gorgeous and we stayed aboard for three days. There were several out of state boaters in our marina, but social distancing was practiced pretty well. I think most got half way down the dock and realized they needed to go back to get our masks, but before running into anyone. 

I was curious how the State would react, after such a gorgeous weekend that clearly drew out a lot of people. At the Governors Monday press conference, she claimed to be pleased. There were some exceptions, but overall pleased and expected to lift stay at home that expires today (Fri).

However, at yesterday's (Thu) press conference, she said it will only be a toe in the water. She is still pressing forward with lifting stay at home, but there is an order for everyone to wear masks in public (sans medical conditions that prevent). She is going to reissue a number of executive orders today that continue some restrictions, but didn't clarify which ones. The press specifically asked her if the out of state traveler order would be extended. She punted like a politician. She said to wait until today. She said most things would not be very different, "maybe only a little". 

I hope she has the sense to allow out of state residents back, if they own property or have boats permanently moored in the State. They are neighbors, just like the rest. I know a condo building in Bristol which must be 80% snowbirds (folks who split time between summer in RI and some southern winter haven). Fine if she keeps the tourists off the beach and out of the hotels for now, which aren't open anyway. 

Interestingly, the Director of the RI Dept of Health was asked, in the same press conference, how many "New Yorkers or Out of State" residents were in the hospitals in RI. It was a good question, as that was the reported purpose of the restriction and there had been reportedly "floods" of NYers that traveled early in the pandemic to their summer homes. She said she didn't have that information, as all stats are only reported for their own residents. I call total BS, BS, BS. The answer must not support their narrative. While someone must have gotten sick, it always struck me that those who were traveling to get away from the epidemic, were likely the more astute and compliant than the average bear anyway.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

The Lewisporte YC/Marina in Newfoundland is opening in a limited way so members can get their boats ready for launch. There are strict guidelines for how staff, members and visiting contractors must operate, including limiting the number of people on the property. The clubhouse, and all social areas, remain closed.

So good news. Unfortunately the province of Newfoundland has now tightened its border controls. Basically, non-residents are barred from coming to the island for the foreseeable future. This even includes people who own property, but who normally reside elsewhere. 

So my marina is opening up, but I still can't get there .


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

This is the new Governor Hogan's Maryland Executive Order pertaining to recreational boating.


> Effective Thursday, May 7, at 7 a.m., recreational boating activities, including motorized and non-motorized vessels and personal watercraft, are permitted, however:
> 
> Boaters must be with immediate family members or people with which they reside.
> No more than 10 people can be on a boat


Note that it doesn't say it's party time for friends and family. Many of us use our boats for social gatherings with friends and family. This step allows those who own boats to use them to get out and exercise

It's not meant to reignite a huge distancing dilema. We've quarantined in our houses to prevent spread. This should continue to our boats until the step comes where it's safe. It isn't that yet


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Another factor in yesterday's RI press conference was that social gatherings were likely going to be limited to 5 people. I assume that would apply on boats as well. Current covid boating guidelines forbid rafting up at all. These are reasonable precautions.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

My town has over 300 cases (Plymouth MA). The entire island of St Lucia has less than a quarter of that. People stuck in the islands have a 8-14 day passage to anywhere in mainland USA. They have all quarantined in place in the harbor they are stuck in. R.I. is showing zero logic in this. Unlike the various point of service tests standard polymerase chain reaction testing is know to be reliable. What would make sense is to PCR any crew clearing into R.I. Have them stay on the boat with Q flag up until results return. Regardless of nationality at that point you have proved they can’t be vectors and should be treated the same as the general population US citizen or not.
JetBlue has decided that for present they will allow one flight per month from St. Lucia to the US with passengers. 
Until flights open up it doesn’t much matter if marinas open. Virtually all international cruisers regardless of country of origin go home periodically either for family, business or health reasons. Having that security that you can return by a flight quickly to your country of origin is a big deal unless you’re a total expatriate.


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

Anthony386 said:


> hmmm, recreational boating is permitted in Virginia but not Maryland..


It is allowed in Maryland, as of yesterday


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> It is allowed in Maryland, as of yesterday


...but quarantine restrictions on out of state residents still needs clarification. Funky is from Virginia.


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## FunkyJunk (Oct 14, 2018)

TakeFive said:


> ...but quarantine restrictions on out of state residents still needs clarification. Funky is from Virginia.


I don't think Virginia ever put recreational boating on the restricted list.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

outbound said:


> ....What would make sense is to PCR any crew clearing into R.I. Have them stay on the boat with Q flag up until results return.......


All international arrivals in RI are required to self-quarantine for 14 days, which includes vessels. That's been on the books, since March 13. There are several around the Bay that are flying the Q flag for that exact reason. Some of the mega yachts made the papers.

The Governor just issued an executive order, extending several previous ones that expire today. International arrivals is one of them and now expires on June 5th.

The previous order that restricted travel from other States, however, was not renewed! Before too much celebration from those that own property in RI and spend more than 6 months outside of RI (which is the stupid distinction), I won't be surprised to see a new Exec order that better defines who can and can not freely arrive, from other states. Yesterday, she said it would look much the same. I wagered she'd allow anyone back that has property (real or personal) in the State, but not tourists. We'll see.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

TakeFive said:


> ...but quarantine restrictions on out of state residents still needs clarification. Funky is from Virginia.


Did you call the Maryland DNR yet?


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

chef2sail said:


> Did you call the Maryland DNR yet?


Several times. Voicemail greetings say they're overwhelmed with call volume. No option to leave a message.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Watching RI Governor press conference right now. Director of Dept of Health was just asked how many mandated self-quarantined out of state residents tested positive for Covid. In her reply, she acknowledged she was asked yesterday about how many were in hospitals and said they are still trying to assemble the data. 

She was forced to acknowledge that she expects it to be very low. 

No kidding.


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

TakeFive said:


> ...but quarantine restrictions on out of state residents still needs clarification. Funky is from Virginia.


That may be but I replied only to what was stated in the message.


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## FunkyJunk (Oct 14, 2018)

I contacted a DNR representative a few weeks ago, and the only issue he saw with moving my boat from VA to MD was relating to the recreational boating ban. FWIW, he didn't mention anything about a quarantine for out of state visitors. I don't think they really care or take it seriously.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Minne that well may be but it still makes no sense scientifically to quarantine people who have no possibility of being a vector of disease


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

outbound said:


> Minne that well may be but it still makes no sense scientifically to quarantine people who have no possibility of being a vector of disease


These were people moving from on land marina in one state to another in the adjoining state permanently not cruisers self isolating on a traveling boat. You don't know that they are not infected.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Minne I was referring to my prior post.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Many people should be on interstate work schedules of..1 day on and 14 days off


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Minnewaska said:


> Interestingly, the requirement for out of state residents to self-quarantine for 14 days was not lifted.


Rhode Island is a small state with close neighbors. I wonder how this rule applies to residents of Pawcatuck/Westerly, Pawtucket, Woonsocket, and similar where city/suburb borders are shared or overlap with other states, or at least so close you can pee across the creek or road separating them?

Mark


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

outbound said:


> Minne I was referring to my prior post.


If you're saying R.I. should let arriving cruisers out of quarantine, if they test negative, I agree. RI brags about doing more testing per capita than any other state.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Minnewaska said:


> If you're saying R.I. should let arriving cruisers out of quarantine, if they test positive, I agree...


REALLY? Did I misread this?


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

FunkyJunk said:


> I contacted a DNR representative a few weeks ago, and the only issue he saw with moving my boat from VA to MD was relating to the recreational boating ban. FWIW, he didn't mention anything about a quarantine for out of state visitors. I don't think they really care or take it seriously.


That real-world experience is very helpful. Ultimately it's the enforcement that matters.

I have made a good faith effort to contact DNR about this, calling several times and then later sending an email explaining what I plan to do and my rationale for why I think I may fall under the "regular commuter" exemption from quarantine. Meanwhile, I am hearing of other non-Maryland residents who are already traveling into Maryland to our marina and not being challenged. Until today they were staying in the marina, but still able to enjoy their boats in the slip. I paid sales tax on my boat to Maryland, I register my boat in Maryland, and I pre-paid thousands of dollars in slip fees in Maryland. I will assert my right to do recreational boating in Maryland unless I hear explicitly from a Maryland official that I must quarantine. So far, no news is good news.

[EDIT: I just heard from another PA resident on another forum that Haven Harbour is open for business, and out-of-state boaters are welcome with social distancing in lieu of quarantine.]


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

TakeFive said:


> That real-world experience is very helpful. Ultimately it's the enforcement that matters.
> 
> I have made a good faith effort to contact DNR about this, calling several times and then later sending an email explaining what I plan to do and my rationale for why I think I may fall under the "regular commuter" exemption from quarantine. Meanwhile, I am hearing of other non-Maryland residents who are already traveling into Maryland to our marina and not being challenged. Until today they were staying in the marina, but still able to enjoy their boats in the slip. I paid sales tax on my boat to Maryland, I register my boat in Maryland, and I pre-paid thousands of dollars in slip fees in Maryland. I will assert my right to do recreational boating in Maryland unless I hear explicitly from a Maryland official that I must quarantine. So far, no news is good news.
> 
> [EDIT: I just heard from another PA resident on another forum that Haven Harbour is open for business, and out-of-state boaters are welcome with social distancing in lieu of quarantine.]


You might as well claim residency😀😀😀😀😀😀( the taxes suck but the roads are better)


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

OK all, here's an update on the Maryland boating status for out-of-state residents. Take this with a grain of salt, since I am not an attorney.

Here's a complete list of Hogan's Executive Orders:

https://governor.maryland.gov/covid-19-pandemic-orders-and-guidance/

Notably:


> *Superseded Orders (not in effect)*
> Gatherings, Senior Centers (March 12; superseded by Order dated March 16)
> Gatherings, Senior Centers, Restaurants/Bars, etc. (March 16; superseded by Order dated March 19)
> Gatherings, Senior Centers, Restaurants/Bars, etc. (March 19; superseded by Order dated March 23)
> ...


The March 30 Stay at Home Order (and the corresponding Interpretive Guidance COVID19-08) implemented the 14 day self-quarantine requirement for many who came into the state of Maryland. The website explicitly says that order is no longer in effect, having been superseded by the May 6 executive order. The May 6 executive order says nothing about a 14-day self-quarantine. So unless something changes (such as a new Interpretive Guidance that re-institutes the quarantine requirement), Maryland imposes no self-quarantine requirement for out-of-state boaters who are not otherwise required to quarantine under CDC or MDH requirements.


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## Bdu (Jan 1, 2020)

TakeFive said:


> For those of us who have our boats in Maryland but live outside the state, I would appreciate hearing reports here from anyone who encounters difficulties from law enforcement regarding Maryland's quarantine requirements for those coming from out-of-state. My hope is that Maryland will consider us to fall into the "regular commuter" exception, but I am not aware that this exclusion has been tested.


I live in WV and have made numerous trips thru MD to my Marina on the Chesapeake since March. The marina is open now, but my boat was put in in February, just before the state mandated closure. Needless to say, I was in the middle of a moderate refit, and concerned about problems that could arise without my weekly presence.
To my knowledge, and last I checked, the quarantine rules were 2 weeks quarantine for travelers coming from NY, NJ, and CT. This was posted entering the state from major highways. In addition, the "rules" for leaving home included a general statement allowing travel to ensure property was not lost or damaged....
My fears were soon put to rest though- there was tons of traffic, from many states. I had absolutely no worries, but only stopped for self serve gas and maintained social distance rules. I wouldn't speed with a van filled with 10 people and NY plates though...
Bring PPE- must be worn in all public places!


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Minne
Think you got this backwards.
PCR (polymerase chain reaction) testing tests for the presence of the VIRUS. Unlike antibody testing it is highly accurate with near negligible false positives and negatives. If if person tests NEGATIVE for the presence of the virus they can’t spread the disease. Cruisers coming in from the Caribbean have a very low risk of even having been exposed to the virus given the extremely low rate of infection there. Then superimposed an extremely low risk of being a vector as the trip itself in effect is a quarantine on top of the quarantine in place imposed by the islands. Then add in a negative PCR test and they present less of a risk of being a spreader than the native R.I. population. In fact they present NO risk. So R.I. policy makes no sense. Period.


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## Ken111 (Jan 8, 2020)

I’ll begin sailing back to the USA in a few days. Virginia, Maryland, NYC, Long Island, Rhode Island... here we come, looking forward to fishing and some sightseeing on our travels up the coast over the next month or so. Glad now I didn’t head south and get trapped forever in Grenada, St Vincent, St Lucia or Trinidad; or panic and abandon ship in any of those places and not be able to get back in.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

I don’t know Ken.

Very happy with our decision to put the boat on the hard in St.Lucia and fly home before restrictions came in place. Boats being well looked after. I’m in my lovely home. And most important the bride is much happier here than she would have been if we joined the SDR flotilla. Many of my cruising friends have confessed they wished they made or could have made the same decision.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

Ken111 said:


> I'll begin sailing back to the USA in a few days. Virginia, Maryland, NYC, Long Island, Rhode Island... here we come, looking forward to fishing and some sightseeing on our travels up the coast over the next month or so. Glad now I didn't head south and get trapped forever in Grenada, St Vincent, St Lucia or Trinidad; or panic and abandon ship in any of those places and not be able to get back in.


Expecting snow flurries here on Long Island tonight but, things should be warming up from here on. Life on board should be much easier for you than in the Caribbean these days. Fair winds.


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## Ken111 (Jan 8, 2020)

mbianka said:


> Expecting snow flurries here on Long Island tonight but, things should be warming up from here on. Life on board should be much easier for you than in the Caribbean these days. Fair winds.


Thank you.


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## Ken111 (Jan 8, 2020)

Unless the political situation changes significantly in large parts of the Caribbean, we'll be sticking to the French Islands, Dutch Islands, Antigua, Dominica and the USVI during the 2020-2021 season and avoiding the rest until things improve.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

outbound said:


> Minne
> Think you got this backwards.
> PCR (polymerase chain reaction) testing tests for the presence of the VIRUS. Unlike antibody testing it is highly accurate with near negligible false positives and negatives. If if person tests NEGATIVE for the presence of the virus they can't spread the disease. Cruisers coming in from the Caribbean have a very low risk of even having been exposed to the virus given the extremely low rate of infection there. Then superimposed an extremely low risk of being a vector as the trip itself in effect is a quarantine on top of the quarantine in place imposed by the islands. Then add in a negative PCR test and they present less of a risk of being a spreader than the native R.I. population. In fact they present NO risk. So R.I. policy makes no sense. Period.


Yes, I clearly wrote it backwards and edited. Thanks for giving me the polite credit.

I believe I fully understand your point, a thorough negative test, for the crew, should negate the need for quarantine. However, 14 day quarantine is equally effective, so I don't follow why you say RI policy makes no sense? Unnecessarily inconvenient perhaps. Is that your point?

We're back aboard for our 4 day per week routine. Sipping coffee in the sunshine right now. There isn't anywhere to go anyway, so little distinction to quarantine. Nothing is open, other than grocery stores. Although some things start opening this weekend, with strict distancing and density protocols, plus masks. It won't really be any different, restaurants are still take out only. Next phase, which only goes into effect if this one works, they are distanced outdoor dinning only.


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

outbound said:


> PCR (polymerase chain reaction) testing tests for the presence of the VIRUS. Unlike antibody testing it is highly accurate with near negligible false positives and negatives. If if person tests NEGATIVE for the presence of the virus they can't spread the disease.


This directly contradicts what we've been told about the accuracy of the testing. My daughter was tested last week (swab up the nose), and it came back negative. However, she was told by the Dr who tested her and by her own Dr. to take that with a grain of salt, as the false negatives run from 5%-30%. I'd sure like to believe that she doesn't have it, but she's been running a low grade fever on and off for over a week.


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## Ulladh (Jul 12, 2007)

Gov Wolf extended "Stay at Home" order for South and Southeast Pennsylvania to June 4.

Recreational boating is still allowed. 

Life-sustaining travel is allowed, face coverings must be worn to enter any life-sustaining business, and large gatherings are not permitted while social distancing is required.

Also from Wolf on criteria for relaxing the order;

A target goal for reopening has been set at having fewer than 50 new confirmed cases per 100,000 population reported to the department in the previous 14 days. So, for example, an area with a population of 800,000 people would need to have fewer than 400 new confirmed cases reported in the past 14 days to meet the target. An assessment will determine if the target goal has been met. The administration will work closely with county and local governments to enable the communities to reopen and transition back to work.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

A couple of days ago Grenada said they would now allow UNMANNED vessels to be hauled.

They have SUGGESTDD but not officially announced that in the near future they will allow boats in. So if I understand it right and they don’t change.
FIRST you need to register with Grenadalima.com
Grenada will assign you a “arrival slot”, likely giving precedence to boats with reservations.
You need to sail direct, non stop, from your current port to Grenada.
Then 14 day on boat quarantine.
NO, ZERO, indication of when you may fly OUT, let alone BACK. Repatriation flights are being handled through the embassy. 

I believe Trinidad will be about the same.

We have elected to sail back to NC. Our home is rented out so we need a place to stay.

I’m also starting to see opinion pieces, from the islands, saying 12 to -8 months before opening. I think those are ideas being “run up the flag” to test the public sentiment. There’s a good chance the 2020-2021 season is at risk.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

Just to add it appears Canada, or maybe it’s just Provincial or municipal, is requiring folks arriving from the Caribbean to do a 14 day quarantine. 

Some places are STRONGLY discouraging travel between Providence’s.


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## jtsailjt (Aug 1, 2013)

outbound said:


> I don't know Ken.
> 
> Very happy with our decision to put the boat on the hard in St.Lucia and fly home before restrictions came in place. Boats being well looked after. I'm in my lovely home. And most important the bride is much happier here than she would have been if we joined the SDR flotilla. Many of my cruising friends have confessed they wished they made or could have made the same decision.


 How did you manage to ascertain that the person looking out for your boat is reliable and will keep vandals and thieves away from it? Is he a personal friend that you've known for awhile? I've only been to St Lucia once but found that, compared to most of the more northern Caribbean islands, many of the locals didn't seem to have a very good attitude towards outsiders such as ourselves. I'm not suggesting your boat sitter is one of them but he can't guard your boat 24/7 and with their largely tourist based economy shut down for the foreseeable future, it seems to me that some of the locals are going to get pretty desperate for ANY source of income to use to feed their families. Plus, locals know that you're a 'rich yankee imperialist' and there's no chance of you showing up anytime soon. If my boat were on the hard there, I think I'd want to get back to it ASAP. But I suppose that at least it's safe from hurricanes and there's nothing you can do about it now. So, hopefully the restrictions will be lifted by next winter and you'll be able to fly in to at least visit your boat. Good luck!


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

outbound said:


> I don't know Ken.
> 
> Very happy with our decision to put the boat on the hard in St.Lucia and fly home before restrictions came in place. Boats being well looked after. I'm in my lovely home. And most important the bride is much happier here than she would have been if we joined the SDR flotilla. Many of my cruising friends have confessed they wished they made or could have made the same decision.


Funny many of my friends are saying the opposite. They are glad that they have come back or are coming back. One I went shopping for as they passed through the Annapolis region this week and we're going to Maine where the home is. Their reasons were ones I am sure you discussed and thought about.

They didn't want to leave their boats in a foreign country for months by itself for many reasons. 
1- hurricane season. Just because they were on land didn't mean they wouldn't suffer damage. Zanshion a perfect example 
2- they would be able to use their boat this year and no guarantee they would next year either. Their asset was in flux
3- many were not in your financial position so paying exorbitant fees to have it in storage was money they didn't have
4- many, this was their home now so leaving it wasn't a possibility
5- the trip back was something they expected to do and if they planned it carefully the hardest part was getting to Florida or even the Chesapeake. 
6- they didn't trust foreign marine people. They feared their boats would get looted . Electronic equipment would be taken. Profiteers would know they weren't back for months therefore no one would miss it for a long time.

These were the main reason and what they weighed when decided to not immediately leave like you did. They faced having to stay in a third world country where they were not citizens. They had to stay in a country where the health care wasn't like the US. They had to deal with the shortages and restriction of quarantine there. They had to face a passage they were doing, which they expected but not the time they expected. Many didn't have entire crews they had planned on because of the no flying and admission of foreigners into the country. Many faced the US confusion in treating and dealing with the monster vs staying where there was limited effect, but would not necessarily stay that way. Most of them did not have the financial resources to stay for over a year.

Many staged themselves to either the Bahamas or Peurto RICO with there next " hop" back to their USA. Like Outbound there is no right and wrong, just right and wrong for you. These were reasons described to me by cruisers who mostly are back in the US with their boats. A few I have contact with are getting ready to leave for the US. Tough decisions

Stay safe


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## MacBlaze (Jan 18, 2016)

Washington state is poised to let loose the hounds. My inbox has been flooded with tons of FAQs Q & As and warnings about the reopening of state marine parks. But they have never really been closed boating down completely and tons of boaters have been out occupying lonely anchorages for the last few weeks.

A BC liveaboard acquaintance was reporting that a lot of the popular anchorages in the Gulf Islands are also full. My understanding is a lot of the marinas are closed for everything except fuel and water though.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

There’s innumerable antibody tests. The accuracy is poor to middling at present but soon will improve, be accurate and certified by the government.
PCR testing consists of repetitive heating and cooling in the presence of enzymes and substrates that replicate either RNA or DNA. It’s been around for quite a long time. It’s used in genetics labs and by law enforcement. Each entity (person, bacterium, virus or fungus) gives a very specific pattern on electrophoresis. The accuracy is extremely high. It is not a test of antibodies but rather for the RNA of the virus itself. You can take a minute amount of virus and make millions of copies of its RNA with this technique which allows you to do the electrophoresis ( placing your sample on a gel and placing a small current across it). It takes days to do a PCR test.

So what your doctor did was probably an antibody test. He’s right. Accuracy is poor for many. Back in December epidemiologists started asking the fed to ramp up PCR supplies. This would have allowed definitive testing in selected cases and a yardstick to compare to antibody tests.

We need to open or go broke. There’s a right and wrong way to do this. It should be done informed by testing and at a National level with no politics involved


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Just had communication from friends with relationships with officials inside Grenada government and MAYAG . (Local marine trade organization). Although not yet in public domain high probability of opening boat yards to allow haul by non Grenadian nationals last week of May or first week of June. Regardless of point of origin 2 week on boat quarantine before its touched or crew set free to get off. 

Perhaps those who stayed and avoided a difficult passage due to lack of crew or condition of boat didn’t make that bad a decision as US cases and deaths continue to rise in numbers and per 100,000.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

outbound said:


> You can take a minute amount of virus and make millions of copies of its RNA with this technique which allows you to do the electrophoresis ( placing your sample on a gel and placing a small current across it). It takes days to do a PCR test.


I think gel electrophoresis for PCR is a dinosaur now. Most PCR is done in real-time using fluorophores, so the analyses is fairly rapid. Of course, sending out samples and getting back results could still take days.

Mark


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

That’s right but was trying to get the concept across. Thanks for the correction. Point still holds. It’s accurate. Looks for presence of viral RNA.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

How many false negatives are caused by improper swabbing technique, or virus having moved from upper respiratory tract into the lungs?


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## Ken111 (Jan 8, 2020)

From what I've been reading on the Trinidad and Grenada news, it seems like all islands south of Martinique are doing whatever the Chinese, Cuban and Venezuelan governments instruct them to do, and the citizens don't seem very pleased with the ongoing situation. Our friends in a Grenada marina, don't seem very comfortable either being held captive on their boat for over two months now, with no end in sight and no flights out until after August. They have a contingency plan in place in case of civil unrest or tropical storm, which is to head back to the USA or down to French Guyana.

The shipyard I'd originally booked for a May 1st haul out in Trinidad is presently completely closed down with no workers on site, which is not a condition I'd be comfortable with leaving my boat. Food lines, high crime, locals with no money, Venezuelan piracy, possibly getting stuck there for months with Zika, Dengue fever etc. The US embassy website indicates that US citizens should not expect any assistance in getting home, people who've remained in these countries will stay there until international commercial flights resume.

Just like the saying goes... you don't step off the ship until you have to step up into the life raft; you shouldn't leave your boat unattended in some tiny soon-to-be turd world country where you might not be allowed back into for a year or two.

No thanks.


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## Ken111 (Jan 8, 2020)

outbound said:


> I don't know Ken.
> 
> Very happy with our decision to put the boat on the hard in St.Lucia and fly home before restrictions came in place. Boats being well looked after. I'm in my lovely home. And most important the bride is much happier here than she would have been if we joined the SDR flotilla. Many of my cruising friends have confessed they wished they made or could have made the same decision.


I don't know what an Outbound 46 costs, but I do know what an Oyster 625 would cost me to replace if it got clobbered by a category 3,4,5 or 6 hurricane.

Leaving our boat on the hard in the hurricane zone is not an option, personally.. I wouldn't sleep well at night knowing our boat was at risk of being stripped clean by the locals or destroyed by a hurricane.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Ken111 said:


> I don't know what an Outbound 46 costs, but I do know what an Oyster 625 would cost me to replace if it got clobbered by a category 3,4,5 or 6 hurricane.
> 
> Leaving our boat on the hard in the hurricane zone is not an option, personally.. I wouldn't sleep well at night knowing my boat was at risk of being stripped clean by the locals or destroyed by a hurricane.


Everyone did what they thought best for their families and investment. Especially in this time and issues when family is so important, It may have been more important to be with family for doc than to put emphasis on a material item. I certainly can understand that.

Some people are money driven and that's their importance , some are family people and understand that in crisis support from all family members is being together. If my wife said she wanted to be home in this crisis, I wouldn't make her go it alone.

So maybe the issue is which to leave for the wolves, Your family or your boat

I'd either do what he did or sail the sucker home. I'd never seperate my family


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## Ken111 (Jan 8, 2020)

Which is precisely the reason why my wife and I along with two very trusted friends are sailing our boat north and out of the hurricane and politically unstable zone beginning next week.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Ken111 said:


> Which is precisely the reason why my wife and I along with two very trusted friends are sailing our boat north and out of the hurricane and politically unstable zone beginning next week.


I must have been confused then. I thought your wife left at least a month ago when the **** hit the fan , helping family and others in the hospital as a nurse, and you stayed hanging out while the worst of the crisis took place. It's obvious the importance was the boat.

Not a value judgement as everyone has their own priorities. It was you who questioned / criticized the doc for leaving his boat to take care of things immediately with family in the midst of the terrible and scary part of the crisis. I thought maybe you couldn't comprehend why he might risk damage to his boat, vs to his family unit.

From what I've read from him on here over the years, and of course the internet can be deceiving, he's a stand up guy who id love to break bread and hope our paths crossed. This is another example of that?

Have a safe trip home. We have everything opening up and under control now.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

outbound said:


> .......as US cases and deaths continue to rise in numbers and per 100,000.


I don't think either of those statements are true, particularly on a rolling week average. I'm sure there are areas, within the country, where that may be true. You can play with each of the charts in the attached to see individual states or countries, either in total or per capita. Even in Massachusetts, where I think you are, both weekly new cases and deaths per capita are declining.

91-DIVOC : Flip the script on COVID-19


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## Ken111 (Jan 8, 2020)

chef2sail said:


> I must have been confused then. I thought your wife left at least a month ago when the **** hit the fan , helping family and others in the hospital as a nurse, and you stayed hanging out while the worst of the crisis took place. It's obvious the importance was the boat.
> 
> Not a value judgement as everyone has their own priorities. It was you who questioned / criticized the doc for leaving his boat to take care of things immediately with family in the midst of the terrible and scary part of the crisis. I thought maybe you couldn't comprehend why he might risk damage to his boat, vs to his family unit.
> 
> ...


My wife and family have been working over the past two months with Covid patients in the OR and ICU at Brigham and Women's Hospital in Boston while I dealt with the situation down here in the Caribbean, so it's time my wife took a well-deserved vacation, so she will join me for three weeks on the boat as we enjoy the uninterupted use of our boat as we cruise up the east coast of America enjoying the sites like the Statue of Liberty, Virginia, Maryland, Block Island etc on our way back up to New England. When I arrive back in Massachusetts, I'll probably spend a month working... or I might just decide to take off for Greece for the summer if the border opens up.

I guess it depends... :2 boat:
FYI: Neither of us mind working with sick people nor are we scared of them like so many on this forum.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Ken111 said:


> My wife and family have been working over the past two months with Covid patients in the OR and ICU at Brigham and Women's Hospital in Boston while I dealt with the situation down here in the Caribbean, so it's time my wife took a well-deserved vacation, so she will join me for three weeks on the boat as we enjoy the uninterupted use of our boat as we cruise up the east coast of America enjoying the sites like the Statue of Liberty, Virginia, Maryland, Block Island etc on our way back up to New England. When I arrive back in Massachusetts, I'll probably spend a month working... or I might just decide to take off for Greece for the summer if the border opens up.
> 
> I guess it depends... :2 boat:
> FYI: Neither of us mind working with sick people nor are we scared of them like so many on this forum.


No doubt that your wife took care of sick people and family when it was most dangerous, she is to be commended.



> sick people nor are we scared of them like so many on this forum.


It's one think to be in the middle of the turmoil, dealing with the horror, it's another to sit in judgement from afar and call others scared. You really don't know ....except what you hear and see through others


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## Ken111 (Jan 8, 2020)

chef2sail said:


> No doubt that your wife took care of sick people and family when it was most dangerous, she is to be commended.
> 
> It's one think to be in the middle of the turmoil, dealing with the horror, it's another to sit in judgement from afar and call others scared. You really don't know ....except what you hear and see through others


I find your condescending remarks to be juvenile and off topic in nature. Has it ever occurred to you, that my wife and I no longer need to work as nurses as we've been semi-retired for several years on our business income? We continue to work part-time as registered nurses because... we enjoy it.

Please try to digest this concept.:2 boat:


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

chef2sail said:


> No doubt that your wife took care of sick people and family when it was most dangerous, she is to be commended.
> 
> It's one think to be in the middle of the turmoil, dealing with the horror, it's another to sit in judgement from afar and call others scared. You really don't know ....except what you hear and see through others


Why do you do this sht?
Youve been doing similar for years....these cycles you go thru
Bad taste for newbs..down right unpleasant


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

birds of a feather flock together.

I should have put you on my ignore list years ago. See ya


Back to the topic. 

Marinas are now open in Maryland. Finally get to go out and get away from the rabble stuck on anchors and see the world again. It’s funny just seeing the world from your house. The world will go on. 

Have called a number of marinas in Va and Maryland to see if their towns are open or even the grocery stores have survived at all. Hopefully many of us in the Chessie can get back out and enjoy our beautiful Bay. 

Stay safe as always.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

Minnewaska said:


> Yes, I clearly wrote it backwards and edited. Thanks for giving me the polite credit.
> 
> I believe I fully understand your point, a thorough negative test, for the crew, should negate the need for quarantine. However, 14 day quarantine is equally effective, so I don't follow why you say RI policy makes no sense? Unnecessarily inconvenient perhaps. Is that your point?
> 
> We're back aboard for our 4 day per week routine. Sipping coffee in the sunshine right now. There isn't anywhere to go anyway, so little distinction to quarantine. Nothing is open, other than grocery stores. Although some things start opening this weekend, with strict distancing and density protocols, plus masks. It won't really be any different, restaurants are still take out only. Next phase, which only goes into effect if this one works, they are distanced outdoor dinning only.


Found out yesterday I can get an antibody test for COVID-19 virus at a local walk in Urgent Care office. Since I had a knock down flu like condition in late January which I thought was maybe a common flu until the Pandemic hit. Been wanting to see if it might have been the Wuhan virus instead. Went and got the blood taken today should know the results in a few days.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

RI issued a new Exec Order on Fri, extended the requirement to quarantine for 14, if you arrive from out of state. Except for a few things, such as working on ones boat. Rather than extend the old order, on a Thursday, they wrote a new one. This is the relevant paragraph.......



> Domestic Travel Restrictions Remain Largely in Place
> 
> 5. Any person coming to Rhode Island from another state for a non-work-related purpose must immediately self-quarantine for 14 days. This quarantine restriction shall not apply to public health, public safety or healthcare workers. It shall also not apply to anyone traveling for medical treatment, to attend funeral or memorial services, to obtain necessities such as groceries, gas or medication, to dropping off or picking up children from day care *or to anyone who must work on their boats* _(emphasis added)_.


It is the Ocean State, after all. 

Now expires May 23rd. Which is two weeks, for Phase 1, if it goes well. It's also the Sat of Memorial Day weekend.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

From NYT
“With 1.3 million reported cases, the United States, just five percent of the world’s population, has nearly 33 percent of the sick. With more than 75,000 deaths, we’re at the front of the pack as well. No country comes close on all three measures.” -yes we’ve made America great again. We lead the world. 



Boats insured for $675k almost equal to its replacement value. Extra premium a few K. Decreased expense from not bringing it home just about equals increased premium. Financially I won’t be significantly hurt even with a total loss. Boat inside locked facility with 24 hour security. . Prep meets all insurance requirements for named storm. Actually less risk of theft then in the yard where it was kept prior year. But that’s not what’s important. Love or money I’ll always pick love. Seems thousands have made the same decision given awhile now one of the problems is finding a place on the hard when restrictions allow. Perhaps you’re new to Caribbean cruising. Yards are pretty much full come summers even before the current pandemic. The pandemic has exacerbated the difficulty of finding a spot in a competent, safe yard and getting to that yard. Been hearing yards have bent over backwards to “find a spot” but things are tight. 

Ken you made multiple posts which cause me to question your veracity and values. Most unlike and inaccurate for the hundreds of RNs I’ve worked with through the years. Of course they don’t have 2 Oysters and can‘t afford to work part time so your experience seems pretty unique. I’ve no desire to get into a pissing war with you but please loose the attack mode and try to be helpful and supportive to others.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

mbianka said:


> Found out yesterday I can get an antibody test for COVID-19 virus at a local walk in Urgent Care office. Since I had a knock down flu like condition in late January which I thought was maybe a common flu until the Pandemic hit. Been wanting to see if it might have been the Wuhan virus instead. Went and got the blood taken today should know the results in a few days.


The antibody tests are the ones with terrible accuracy. There are many of them in use, some really bad, and you won't know which one you got. A negative result from a single test isn't statistically meaningful for many of these. Getting 3 tests would be best for ensuring a statistically valid negative result. Most of them have a high false negative rate, but a low false positive rate, so a single positive test would mean almost likely to have had it.

Mark


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

outbound said:


> From NYT
> "With 1.3 million reported cases, the United States, just five percent of the world's population, has nearly 33 percent of the sick. With more than 75,000 deaths, we're at the front of the pack as well. No country comes close on all three measures." -yes we've made America great again. We lead the world.


A couple of things I'd suggest being careful of. I read that article. To be clear and fair, you added everything after your hyphen. While I'd expect it of the NYT, they didn't write that political attack and it's easy to read past your end quote.

Further, it's an Op Ed, written by Timothy Egan, who has an agenda. Here's his own Wikipedia page....



> Timothy P. Egan (born November 8, 1954) is an American author, journalist and op-ed columnist for The New York Times, *writing from a liberal perspective.* emphasis added


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_Egan

The OpEd article also tries to compare our ability to crank out 8 combat aircraft an hour at the height of WWII, with our inability to make enough $0.75 masks during this crisis. It's just an echo chamber hit job. Factories took a long time to gear up. I'm sure they geared up to produce masks faster. The failure to have enough masks stockpiled before the crisis, in the first place, falls on the hospitals and their state regulators, IMO.

I hate coming across like I'm defending this White House and don't intend to. I did not vote for him. I hate politics being part of our national response to this crisis.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

We can respectfully disagree and I do with the unbridled liberal agenda. However there’s no doubt the the quote I cited is wholly factual. 
My opinion is we have grossly mismanaged the pandemic. View it as an absence of competence not a political statement. I voted libertarian last presidential election. But the quote offered is “just the facts ma’am “. Feds have huge buying power. Instead we paid extra as states competed with each other. Great sums were spent. States do not have the mandate to force industry to redirect production. Feds do and have in major conflict including WWII, WWI and even civil war. States will serve their own self interest whereas a competent federal government will redirect resources where actually needed. There’s both state and federal disaster planning. Given this is a whole country disaster the onus is on the fed who should be able to generate resources quicker, direct them where’s needed, at less expense and with eye toward containment of a virus that crosses state borders easily.


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## Ken111 (Jan 8, 2020)

outbound said:


> From NYT
> "With 1.3 million reported cases, the United States, just five percent of the world's population, has nearly 33 percent of the sick. With more than 75,000 deaths, we're at the front of the pack as well. No country comes close on all three measures." -yes we've made America great again. We lead the world. .


Such an ignorant post on several levels including thread title and content, whilst attempting to make some political jab at the US.

The United States has a population of 328 million and includes 50 states. Total Covid deaths to date in the US = 78,627 as of 5/9/20

The European Union has a population of 446 million and includes 27 countries. Total Covid deaths to date in the EU = 151,797 as of 5/8/20

It only took a five minute fact check to confirm this data which I already knew. No the US does not "lead the world," if that was the point you were trying to make, proportionally, we're doing much better than the EU. If and when the truth eventually comes out, China will undoubtably be crowned the leader. Check the link below if you don't believe me.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1102288/coronavirus-deaths-development-europe/


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

From same op ed. 
“Globally, the average death rate is 34 people per million residents. In the United States, it’s more than six times higher — 232 per million.”
Now some of this may reflect demographics or case ascertainment (higher % of aged, co morbidities etc.) and some inaccuracies in other countries reporting but once again strongly suggests mismanagement. 

Safe Harbors this morning emailed a thoughtful request that as they open marinas we universally strictly adhere to best practices noting some officials would like nothing better to close them down if they see violations. Personally think they can open safely at minor inconvenience to us. Just stick a mask or two in your car or truck, boat, RV, house in short anywhere there’s a possibility you may need one to follow the rules.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

outbound said:


> We can respectfully disagree and I do with the unbridled liberal agenda. However there's no doubt the the quote I cited is wholly factual.
> My opinion is we have grossly mismanaged the pandemic. View it as an absence of competence not a political statement. I voted libertarian last presidential election. But the quote offered is "just the facts ma'am ". Feds have huge buying power. Instead we paid extra as states competed with each other. Great sums were spent. States do not have the mandate to force industry to redirect production. Feds do and have in major conflict including WWII, WWI and even civil war. States will serve their own self interest whereas a competent federal government will redirect resources where actually needed. There's both state and federal disaster planning. Given this is a whole country disaster the onus is on the fed who should be able to generate resources quicker, direct them where's needed, at less expense and with eye toward containment of a virus that crosses state borders easily.


We don't disagree, actually. It was an abject failure at ALL levels of government and the hospital systems, IMO. Adequate rolling PPE supply to protect hospital staff, in the event of any major infectious outbreak, should have been require 20 years ago (by State Health Depts), as many other industries were require to pre-plan for systemic attacks of various kinds. Ventilators are different, as one couldn't foresee they would always be the necessary response.

The economic shutdown was evidence of having no plan. No mask first plan (like many Asian countries have been doing for a long time), no social distancing plan. Absent a better one, it was necessary, but where was the plan to restrict most most vulnerable population first, in congregant care facilities? For goodness sakes, some States we're sending their sick back to these facilities. There was no plan, just a funded planning department, with no plan.

The Feds blew it, for sure. That stated, the early days were confusing and the lack of early clarity wasn't entirely on them. The WHO themselves was stating this was not a big deal in Feb and denied asymptomatic infections. Most were hammering the China travel restrictions, when they first went into place. I hate defending this administration, but the partisan stuff started right then. It tripped them up and the partisan war began.

The uncanny correlation I can sense is the more liberal, the more dramatically concerned that the disease kills more people and it's WH fault, the more conservative, the less concerned. That simply has to have been manufactured by politics and media. There is no natural correlation.


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

Ken111 said:


> Such an ignorant post on several levels including thread title and content, whilst attempting to make some political jab at the US.
> 
> The United States has a population of 328 million and includes 50 states. Total Covid deaths to date in the US = 78,627 as of 5/9/20
> 
> ...


Last time I checked the European Union is not a country. Nor are states.

The comparison was deaths per resident. This is the correct one.


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## Ken111 (Jan 8, 2020)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> Last time I checked the European Union is not a country. Nor are states.
> 
> The comparison was deaths per resident. This is the correct one.


Ok, if you want to cherry pick your stats and play by your rules... the US is in 11th place behind:

San Marino
Andorra
Luxembourg
Spain
Belgium
Ireland
Qatar
Iceland
Gibraltar
Vatican City


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

https://stsievert.com/assets/2020-covid-19/image/coronavirus.s

Ken we continue to not follow best practices. As above graph shows as well as multiple other sources including the current government we can expect to continue see no significant flattening of curve for some time to come. This means when viewing the countries you site with very small populations you are truly cherry picking. Not considering where you are in the course of the pandemic nor taking the size of at risk population in mind. Other than the north west corner (state of Washington) of the country strain analysis shows spread was from Europe by way of NYC. Opportunity for containment was lost. Agree there's no use crying over spilled milk but personally remain concerned given our obligate need to re open our continued lack of federal organization of this or taking actions informed by basic epidemiological knowledge will lead to more economic hardships and deaths.


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## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

There's really no need to cite articles and stats etc. make lengthy arguments etc. When one can simply say " I hate Trump" I mean, that's really the bottom line for many, and no amount of discussion will change that mindset. There's an election in six months where people can voice that opinion. And, Frankly, if you vote for a Libertarian (3rd party) candidate you might as well cast your ballot into the ocean. 

From where I sit, 54% of the deaths in my State, have come from LTC centers, Veterans Homes, Psychiatric hospitals and prisons. These were people who were already socially distancing, staying at home etc. I can't say for sure, but I suspect that the employees of these facilities weren't regularly jet-setting around the world. Yet, it was likely the visitors or employees who brought it in. However, once the virus gets in to one of these facilities there doesn't seem to be a cogent strategy to mitigate it's spread. 50% of the patients leaving hospitals in my state aren't able to go directly home. Guess where they get sent! 

If one of the goals is to reduce the number of deaths. We knew early on ( Washington State) where the vulnerable populations were. The other goal was to reduce hospitalizations. We also know that those with chronic underlying conditions ( heart disease, diabetes,etc) are most vulnerable. They will need to continue to take extra-precautions regardless of what restrictions get lifted and when.


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

Ken111 said:


> Ok, if you want to cherry pick your stats and play by your rules... the US is in 11th place behind:
> 
> San Marino
> Andorra
> ...


So you are saying the USA is doing worse that ALL COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD except for these global heaviweights.

But, hey, we are doing better than Andorra! They should really get their act together: Make Andorra Great Again


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## bigdogandy (Jun 21, 2008)

Ken111 said:


> Such an ignorant post on several levels including thread title and content, whilst attempting to make some political jab at the US.
> 
> The United States has a population of 328 million and includes 50 states. Total Covid deaths to date in the US = 78,627 as of 5/9/20
> 
> ...


Actually, the site you quoted above references Covid data for all of Europe, not just the EU. Europe as a whole has a population of about 740M people....if you look at the infection and mortality rates based on the correct population numbers you'll see that the US is actually doing a bit worse than the European countries in managing this.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Even if you take the politics out of the US response, which is hard to do as the leader in chief objects it constantly, taking the infrastructure and supply part and analyzing it leaves me to question whether there is an over all strategy or a reactive one

This goes to leadership. I work in a huge corporation where the are experts in various fields and divisions. I worked in the Trump organization for 18 years, where the same takes place. The success as an organization is no doubt. 

In response to this there are fools and hacks in charge of every aspect of the supply chain. 

We should have been able to mobilize and make masks and respirators. We should be able to make reagents for testing. We should be able to produce much of the supplies. But in addition we should have been able to deliver them as needed, 

Generals are some of the best administrators of process. They are used to supply chains for the troops. You see how fast they can set up hospitals. But they have all been fired. Instead we get Jared Kushnet. Our response from a supply chain relying on big corporations is the wrong approach. In WWII the president commanded tanks and weapons be made by American Industry. That has not happened. 

The only part that has worked in my opinion is the CDC and Fauci. Transferring the guy who said hydroxy chloride was ineffective is a dumb move. But even now he is being uzzlef and politicized by critics. I only trust the science. Trump would never dare fire him as he knows that that would inherently loose the election. He even commented the other day he learned from Nixon about firing people like that. At some point Fauci once he stop feeling his effective will pull away. 

Hopefully he stays until the administration change


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Been a very long time since I’ve been enthusiastic about any politician. For me it’s not about hating Trump. It’s about how incompetent this administration is and I profoundly dislike when incompetency leads to death, illness and economic hardship. I live in Massachusetts so my vote will have no impact on outcome. Still, believe it is your civic duty to vote. Gives you a right to complain if nothing else. If I wasn’t voting in a state where the outcome for electoral votes was predestined perhaps I’d feel differently.


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## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

bigdogandy said:


> Actually, the site you quoted above references Covid data for all of Europe, not just the EU. Europe as a whole has a population of about 740M people....if you look at the infection and mortality rates based on the correct population numbers you'll see that the US is actually doing a bit worse than the European countries in managing this.


Numbers can be manipulated in many ways.

Take the populations of Spain, Germany, France, Italy and the UK and you'll have a total population around the size of the U.S. cases in those countries a few days ago = 1,011,004, fatalities = 118,615. U.S. fatalities = 78,762.

But, I get it. U.S.A. Bad, everyone else good!


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

tempest said:


> Numbers can be manipulated in many ways.
> 
> Take the populations of Spain, Germany, France, Italy and the UK and you'll have a total population around the size of the U.S. cases in those countries a few days ago = 1,011,004, fatalities = 118,615. U.S. fatalities = 78,762.


What he did was not manipulating numbers but using wrong numbers, citing the population of all of Europe but computing the death rate using the number of the EU residents. That is not manipulation, it is called falsification.



tempest said:


> But, I get it. U.S.A. Bad, everyone else good!


You are wildly exaggerating, not everyone else is good. Out of the approx. 190 countries in the world only about 180 are doing better than U.S.A. Based on Ken's follow-up posting, we now know that there are nearly a dozen countries in the world that are doing actually worse than U.S.A. And a truly impressive list it is, starting with San Marino, Andorra and Luxembourg, combined population of nearly 600,000! (a bit less than my hometown of Baltimore).


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## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

I suppose that Depends on how you define doing better? 

If you simply look at # deaths/ # total confirmed cases. 

USA = 5.9 % 

France = 14.9%
Spain = 10%
Italy =13.9 %
Germany= 4.3 %
UK =14.6% 
Canada = 6.9 % 
Ireland =6.4 % 

Trust me, I do get it. Trump= Bad man.


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## MacBlaze (Jan 18, 2016)

tempest said:


> I suppose that Depends on how you define doing better?
> 
> If you simply look at # deaths/ # total confirmed cases.
> 
> ...


I have no desire to jump in the middle of this pissing contest, but I always wonder what conclusion people are drawing from deaths/cases. A lot of internet pundits make great hay out of Sweden's failure to lower that number. In my head I think it a particularly useless stat to judge anything but granular containment efforts, since the high rates seem to be coming from places that had the unfortunate "luck" to see an outbreak in high risk zone. An outbreak in a meat packing plant is almost guaranteed to show less deaths/ cases than an outbreak in a nursing home.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

You guys seem to neglect that deaths is a lagging indicator vs. cases. The peak for deaths always happens after the peak for new cases. In other words, it takes time to die. 

Since the vast majority of cases came to us from Europe, the virus has been there longer and they are further along the curve. US deaths are still growing at an increasing rate.

As a result, comparisons of death rate of US vs. Europe are premature and misleading. 

I agree that putting all Europe deaths in the numerator and EU residents in the denominator is garbage and inflates the quotient. Whether it is intentional fraud is up for debate. As with everyone here, I suggest you read his other posts and decide his credibility for yourself.


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## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

MacBlaze said:


> I have no desire to jump in the middle of this pissing contest, but I always wonder what conclusion people are drawing from deaths/cases. A lot of internet pundits make great hay out of Sweden's failure to lower that number. In my head I think it a particularly useless stat to judge anything but granular containment efforts, since the high rates seem to be coming from places that had the unfortunate "luck" to see an outbreak in high risk zone. An outbreak in a meat packing plant is almost guaranteed to show less deaths/ cases than an outbreak in a nursing home.


Well, I've tried to make that same point, using my State as an example, where 54 % of the deaths come from people who are already confined and at risk. To me, that's a State's responsibility to oversee those facilities. The States, licenses and inspect them, and enforces their mitigation planning. If there was a surge needed it was in those facilities.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

tempest said:


> Well, I've tried to make that same point, using my State as an example, where 54 % of the deaths come from people who are already confined and at risk. To me, that's a State's responsibility to oversee those facilities. The States, license and inspect them, and enforce their mitigation planning. If there was a surge needed it was in those facilities.


Oversight without testing is impossible. These cases were missed because we lacked testing through Feb, March, and much of April. By then the virus had taken hold and we lost the opportunity for containment.


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## Waltthesalt (Sep 22, 2009)

In Washington our Governor has re-opened fishing. The Kingston marine, our marina has not yet announced a reopening. I expect they will soon as it has a launch ramp well used by fisherpersons. There are no physical restrictions preventing us from going to our boats.


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

tempest said:


> I suppose that Depends on how you define doing better?
> 
> If you simply look at # deaths/ # total confirmed cases.
> 
> ...


I see, you are changing topics now. The discussion was about deaths per resident and therefore this is what I was talking about.

Now you are talking about deaths/total confirmed cases. It is correct, the US is doing better in that regard, there are actually 20 countries, rather than 11, that are doing worse than us, some pretty big https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/global-covid-19-case-fatality-rates/. So only ~170 countries better.


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## MacBlaze (Jan 18, 2016)

Waltthesalt said:


> In Washington our Governor has re-opened fishing. The Kingston marine, our marina has not yet announced a reopening. I expect they will soon as it has a launch ramp well used by fisherpersons. There are no physical restrictions preventing us from going to our boats.


This morning:



> Pacific NW Boater is at Port Ludlow Marina.
> Port Ludlow, WA, United States ·
> Well, that didn't take long! Heard reports that marinas, State Parks, bays and coves are quite full this weekend. At least those that are open! Hard to tell, but there are 15 boats anchored here in Port Ludlow, and the guest dock has about the same.


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## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

TakeFive said:


> Oversight without testing is impossible. These cases were missed because we lacked testing through Feb, March, and much of April. By then the virus had taken hold and we lost the opportunity for containment.


N.J. waited until March 20 to restrict outsider visitations to Nursing homes. To me, that's not wholly a testing issue. That was already part of their standard "containment" planning for outbreaks. But it didn't get implemented until well after we saw what happened in Washington State. Last time I looked, 60% of the Deaths in Wash. came from LTC.

With limited testing resources, Testing the "general population" in drive thru sites, when we were all supposed to be staying home doesn't make much sense to me. Testing LTC workers, hospital workers and 1st responders and essential employees, should have been the 1st priority.
But, that's not what my state did.

Like I said, I get it. Trump = Bad Man. You win! After all, we spent 3 years proving that he colluded with Russia.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

tempest said:


> With limited testing resources, Testing the "general population" in drive thru sites, when we were all supposed to be staying home doesn't make much sense to me. Testing LTC workers, hospital workers and 1st responders and essential employees, should have been the 1st priority.
> But, that's not what my state did.


From https://covid19.nj.gov



> However, the *highest priority* for testing will be given to health care workers and workers in congregate living settings, and symptomatic first responders, as well as to asymptomatic NJ residents who have been in close contact with someone else who has tested positive.


Looks like it's *exactly* what they did.


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

To try to get back on topic, I find it interesting that Vermont, one of the states with the very lowest infection and death rates in the entire US has yet to reopen their marinas. They are being extremely cautious about this.


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## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

TakeFive said:


> From https://covid19.nj.gov
> 
> Looks like it's *exactly* what they did.


No, that what they Said. that's not what they did.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Please read this link

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/sites/de...oint-part1_0.pdf?referringSource=articleShare

Logical, consistent with known facts and science. Doubt it will be implemented.


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## Ken111 (Jan 8, 2020)

outbound said:


> Please read this link
> 
> https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/sites/de...oint-part1_0.pdf?referringSource=articleShare
> 
> Logical, consistent with known facts and science. Doubt it will be implemented.


Oh right, let's shut down the entire world and hide in our houses for the next two years, yep... that'll work out just peachy.

Where did you say you went to school?


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## MacBlaze (Jan 18, 2016)

Ken111 said:


> Oh right, let's shut down the entire world and hide in our houses for the next two years, yep... that'll work out just peachy.
> 
> Where did you say you went to school?


Real mature.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

JimsCAL said:


> To try to get back on topic, I find it interesting that Vermont, one of the states with the very lowest infection and death rates in the entire US has yet to reopen their marinas. They are being extremely cautious about this.


It's still snowing there. :laugh


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## Ken111 (Jan 8, 2020)

outbound said:


> Ken you made multiple posts which cause me to question your veracity and values. Most unlike and inaccurate for the hundreds of RNs I've worked with through the years. Of course they don't have 2 Oysters and can't afford to work part time so your experience seems pretty unique. I've no desire to get into a pissing war with you but please loose the attack mode and try to be helpful and supportive to others.





MacBlaze said:


> Real mature.


So, it's perfectly fine and dandy for outbound to question my 35 years as a registered nurse and basically call me a liar, but, it's out of line and apparently "immature" for me to dare to ask for his professional credentials?

What if I challenged his point of view and declared online that I was also an MD? Would my point of view be more... accepted?

FYI: I attended and graduated from The University of California Irvine for my pre Med undergraduate work, then graduated from The University of the State of NY for post graduate studies.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

People....
Find your contentious dial and turn it far to the left...way down.
People are pegging in the red

Be happy


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Columbia, NYU, Boston university, fellowship in neuro epidemiology at Framingham heart study, fellowship in sleep medicine at Harvard.
Please reciprocate Ken.
As with most bullies when faced with thoughtful intelligent analysis or opinion for which you have no rebuttal you resort to harangues and personal attacks.
The citation explains how to open our society and minimize deaths. Perhaps you missed that detail. Perhaps you were unable to process my prior posts where I repetitively pointed out if we remain closed indefinitely deaths from poverty, lack of nutrition, non covid diseases, violence could easily exceed direct covid deaths.
At present remain concerned we are seeing excess non covid deaths as at risk groups and even non risk groups are not seeking medical care and excess covid deaths due to the lack of leadership directed by scientifically informed knowledge. Did you ever follow protocols? Oh that’s right you’ve never told us anything about how you amassed the resources to buy and maintain 2 large Oysters on a RNs salary beyond saying you’re currently working part time in psych. My wife was a RN at MGH until her retirement . It just doesn’t compute. Please explain. Seems fair after you took a swing at me and my boat decisions.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Thanks you’re right. Was writing as other post appeared. Unfortunately when attacked instinct is . to defend. Just tired of attacks without substance.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Ken111 said:


> Oh right, let's shut down the entire world and hide in our houses for the next two years, yep... that'll work out just peachy.


Nowhere in that article was what you project from it mentioned. Nowhere. Did you even read it? If so, your comprehension is poor.

They presented 3 scenarios. One of them required no mitigation measures at all. One required periodic reinstitution and relaxation of mitigation measures in local hotspots as they occur, and the worse scenario of a large fall outbreak required widespread reinstitution of mitigation measures for a couple of months before relaxing again (basically what we just did).

The take away is that mitigation measures aren't to keep people from dying per se, but rather to make sure health resources are not overwhelmed. In fact, they specifically pointed out that people will die, but the goal was to not overwhelm healthcare.

Mark


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## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

outbound said:


> Please read this link
> 
> https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/sites/de...oint-part1_0.pdf?referringSource=articleShare
> 
> Logical, consistent with known facts and science. Doubt it will be implemented.


I read it, it's interesting, makes sense. What is it that you doubt will be implemented? future mitigation " should" it become necessary ?


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## MacBlaze (Jan 18, 2016)

Ken111 said:


> So, it's perfectly fine and dandy for outbound to question my 35 years as a registered nurse and basically call me a liar, but, it's out of line and apparently "immature" for me to dare to ask for his professional credentials?
> 
> What if I challenged his point of view and declared online that I was also an MD? Would my point of view be more... accepted?
> 
> FYI: I attended and graduated from The University of California Irvine for my pre Med undergraduate work, then graduated from The University of the State of NY for post graduate studies.


I will withdraw the comment if it was an honest question, otherwise its pretty close to a personal attack. Go ahead and question his values if you want - I find myself questioning a lot of people's in this very revealing crisis.

Its 24°C (75°F) in the PNW and I keep hearing more and more reports of stuffed anchorages and busy docks. But a lot of the small island marinas are hanging tough and only opening the fuel docks.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

RegisteredUser said:


> People....
> Find your contentious dial and turn it far to the left...way down.
> People are pegging in the red
> 
> Be happy


Not just me who has issues with the "newbie"
Seems the attitude is not palatable to a few of us


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Ken111 said:


> What if I challenged his point of view and declared online that I was also an MD? Would my point of view be more... accepted?


Consistency builds credibility and leads to acceptance of one's opinions. Constantly shifting stories about your profession, side jobs, whereabouts, and intended destination accomplishes the opposite.


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## Ken111 (Jan 8, 2020)

outbound said:


> Columbia, NYU, Boston university, fellowship in neuro epidemiology at Framingham heart study, fellowship in sleep medicine at Harvard.
> Please reciprocate Ken.
> As with most bullies when faced with thoughtful intelligent analysis or opinion for which you have no rebuttal you resort to harangues and personal attacks.
> The citation explains how to open our society and minimize deaths. Perhaps you missed that detail. Perhaps you were unable to process my prior posts where I repetitively pointed out if we remain closed indefinitely deaths from poverty, lack of nutrition, non covid diseases, violence could easily exceed direct covid deaths.
> At present remain concerned we are seeing excess non covid deaths as at risk groups and even non risk groups are not seeking medical care and excess covid deaths due to the lack of leadership directed by scientifically informed knowledge. Did you ever follow protocols? Oh that's right you've never told us anything about how you amassed the resources to buy and maintain 2 large Oysters on a RNs salary beyond saying you're currently working part time in psych. My wife was a RN at MGH until her retirement . It just doesn't compute. Please explain. Seems fair after you took a swing at me and my boat decisions.


I'm disappointed to see that you've now resorted to name-calling.

My initial studies were in pre med, but I finished and received degrees in business and psychology from UCI. I guess financially, it just worked out better for me than medicine during those Reagan years; those piano lessons I took in my youth paid off big time in my twenties. Thanks Mom. Eventually, after first retiring at 30yrs of age from the music business, I earned a degree in nursing because I enjoy it, it's a way to give back. My wife also enjoys her work as an RN.

Just like we both enjoy a beautiful sunset every night here in the Caribbean, she'll return late next week to the USVI.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

Minnewaska said:


> A couple of things I'd suggest being careful of. I read that article. To be clear and fair, you added everything after your hyphen. While I'd expect it of the NYT, they didn't write that political attack and it's easy to read past your end quote.
> 
> Further, it's an Op Ed, written by Timothy Egan, who has an agenda. Here's his own Wikipedia page....
> 
> ...


There will certainly be plenty of blame to go around when the dust settles. The primary of which will be on the Chinese Communist Party. Part of the reason for the shortage of Masks is that China bought a large part of the world's medical supplies supply. https://www.theepochtimes.com/pro-b...ip-to-china-leaving-canada-short_3310287.html
As for the Federal Government not having enough Masks after it's stockpile was drawn down during the SARS pandemic by the Obama Administration. It seems some try to blame Trump because he did not personally go to the warehouses and count the masks. I think the blame belongs to bureaucrats like Dr. Faulty of the National Institutes of Heath who should have known about the shortage it's kind of their job. One thing for sure it won't happen again.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

colemj said:


> The antibody tests are the ones with terrible accuracy. There are many of them in use, some really bad, and you won't know which one you got. A negative result from a single test isn't statistically meaningful for many of these. Getting 3 tests would be best for ensuring a statistically valid negative result. Most of them have a high false negative rate, but a low false positive rate, so a single positive test would mean almost likely to have had it.
> 
> Mark


Yeah the Doctor said it probably would turn out negative but, no reason not to get tested since they both COVID19 and the antibody tests are easily available. Since I've not had any symptoms since January I took advantage of at least having the antibody test in the hopes I actually had come down with the Virus. Still the good news it looks like there will be a sailing season this year. Hoping to get down to the boatyard to see if the moorings are in and step up prep for a launch.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

mbianka said:


> There will certainly be plenty of blame to go around when the dust settles. The primary of which will be on the Chinese Communist Party. Part of the reason for the shortage of Masks is that China bought a large part of the world's medical supplies supply. https://www.theepochtimes.com/pro-b...ip-to-china-leaving-canada-short_3310287.html
> As for the Federal Government not having enough Masks after it's stockpile was drawn down during the SARS pandemic by the Obama Administration. It seems some try to blame Trump because he did not personally go to the warehouses and count the masks. I think the blame belongs to bureaucrats like Dr. Faulty of the National Institutes of Heath who should have known about the shortage it's kind of their job. One thing for sure it won't happen again.


It's hard to know precisely how/why the USA seems to have failed in their dealing with Covid19. It does appear that prep is not something Trump would be politically interested in as it seems he is motivated by tossing goodies to pull in more votes and get re elected (which he will not fail at). Amount the red meat he tosses out are huge tax benefits for the 1%, dog whistle statements for the crazy bigots and evangelicals... including packing the courts with right wing judges and dismantling all manner of rules, regulations, agencies and the like tor "big business". He also seems to have an inferiority complex related to Obama and wants to erase anything his administration was associated with,

Further the main qualification to work for Trump... in his administration... is completely loyalty to him which often means abandonment of science, and critical thinking and competence. Trump has rendered the government incapable (almost) to protect the interest of the typical citizen.

Clearly Trump is an outlier as a president with respect to basic views of what the government is, should do for the people.

Rant could go on, but I will end it here.

++++

Normal boating and social distancing are like mixing oil and water.


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## Ken111 (Jan 8, 2020)

The French are hoping the marinas will open up following a May 11th announcement. The virus has been pretty much eradicated here in the islands, but still remains an issue in France.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

SanderO said:


> It's hard to know precisely how/why the USA seems to have failed in their dealing with Covid19. It does appear that prep is not something Trump would be politically interested in as it seems he is motivated by tossing goodies to pull in more votes and get re elected (which he will not fail at). Amount the red meat he tosses out are huge tax benefits for the 1%, dog whistle statements for the crazy bigots and evangelicals... including packing the courts with right wing judges and dismantling all manner of rules, regulations, agencies and the like tor "big business". He also seems to have an inferiority complex related to Obama and wants to erase anything his administration was associated with,
> 
> Further the main qualification to work for Trump... in his administration... is completely loyalty to him which often means abandonment of science, and critical thinking and competence. Trump has rendered the government incapable (almost) to protect the interest of the typical citizen.
> 
> ...


Well the reality is whoever is President is going to pick judges who fit their ideology Obama did it as those before him did also. It's the consequence of elections. Unlike so many others before him Trump was not a politician and does not behave like one. He was an executive. His style may disturb some people and liberal media. He is an executive in an executive position where he is use to making decisions. You may not like some of them but, at least he makes them and tries to get things done despite the normal Washington gridlock and games.


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## CLOSECALL (Dec 11, 2012)

Hey, mods, move this to politics.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

mbianka said:


> Well the reality is whoever is President is going to pick judges who fit their ideology Obama did it as those before him did also. It's the consequence of elections. Unlike so many others before him Trump was not a politician and does not behave like one. He was an executive. His style may disturb some people and liberal media. He is an executive in an executive position where he is use to making decisions. You may not like some of them but, at least he makes them and tries to get things done despite the normal Washington gridlock and games.


The executive branch is not an analog of a business executive.

Congress should be making the laws not laws by "executive order".


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

I worked in the Trump organization for 18 years and as many know I had daily contact with him for 3 of them.
Being a chief-executive of a corporation Which you own is in no way similar to being the elected head of ONE BRANCH of the government .

As CEO he answer to no one. He had the final say on anything or everything. He never could be out voted. He is the king.....what he says goes....or off with their head ....his perfogative

This is something he has trouble dealing with as president. It’s not his, he just a participant. He has to share some decisions. He can be outvoted even. Or unvoted....or impeached.


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## Ken111 (Jan 8, 2020)

Heading to St Croix USVI sometime over the next several days, does anyone know a good stop to drop the hook for a day or two upon arrival?


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Isla aves could be interesting


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Interesting choice. If I didn’t need supplies or service and just wanted to recharge my batteries with some R &R would head to south side of St.Johns to the national park. If I needed supplies or I needed to work on the boat would head to St Thomas. Just curious why St. Croix? Understood you were headI go back to the US so expect you’re going between BVI and USVI to leave or are you going to island jump on the Caribbean Sea side?


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

mbianka said:


> There will certainly be plenty of blame to go around when the dust settles. The primary of which will be on the Chinese Communist Party. Part of the reason for the shortage of Masks is that China bought a large part of the world's medical supplies supply. https://www.theepochtimes.com/pro-b...ip-to-china-leaving-canada-short_3310287.html
> As for the Federal Government not having enough Masks after it's stockpile was drawn down during the SARS pandemic by the Obama Administration. It seems some try to blame Trump because he did not personally go to the warehouses and count the masks. I think the blame belongs to bureaucrats like Dr. Faulty of the National Institutes of Heath who should have known about the shortage it's kind of their job. One thing for sure it won't happen again.


Giving people funny names is surely the way to get us out of the crisis.

As for the Chinese buying up medical supplies, they know what was coming and reacted in time. Different from some other countries. The US administration bungled their chance to get 1.7 millions/week of American-made N-95 masks, at REGULAR prices ($0.79/piece, not $5.50 what they (meaning we the taxpayers) are paying now) when they were offered them in January (!). The CEO of the company was already well-aware of the need during the coming crisis:
"We are the last major domestic mask company," he wrote on Jan. 23. "My phones are ringing now, so I don't 'need' government business. I'm just letting you know that I can help you preserve our infrastructure if things ever get really bad. I'm a patriot first, businessman second." 
https://www.washingtonpost.com/inve...6a821e-908a-11ea-a9c0-73b93422d691_story.html

What a country we have become.


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## Ken111 (Jan 8, 2020)

outbound said:


> Interesting choice. If I didn't need supplies or service and just wanted to recharge my batteries with some R &R would head to south side of St.Johns to the national park. If I needed supplies or I needed to work on the boat would head to St Thomas. Just curious why St. Croix? Understood you were headI go back to the US so expect you're going between BVI and USVI to leave or are you going to island jump on the Caribbean Sea side?


I'm alone on the boat which is 64ft in length 44 ton, so my plan is to solo sail the 260nm to St Thomas but allow for a place on St Croix to drop the hook for a day or so if I find I'm too tired at around 28 hours of sailing time. I can always check into St Croix using the ROAM app if need be. I'll then pick up my wife and two friends in St Thomas late next week to join me for the sail north stopping at Hampton Virginia and then slowly day hopping up the east coast on our way back to Massachusetts via Long Island, Block Island, Newport, RI etc. My wife just told me an hour ago, that it is her wish to cruise southern New England this summer up until September, when we'll then fly over to Greece for six weeks. All activities in our hometown have been cancelled for the summer due to Covid, so now she just wants to get outta Dodge and relax on the boat for a few months, which is fine with me. The boat is presently well-stocked, but will need to be topped off with supplies in St Thomas.

I'll call the immigration office in St Croix on Monday to run the plan by them and see if they have any recommendations.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> Giving people funny names is surely the way to get us out of the crisis.
> 
> As for the Chinese buying up medical supplies, they know what was coming and reacted in time. Different from some other countries. The US administration bungled their chance to get 1.7 millions/week of American-made N-95 masks, at REGULAR prices ($0.79/piece, not $5.50 what they (meaning we the taxpayers) are paying now) when they were offered them in January (!). The CEO of the company was already well-aware of the need during the coming crisis:
> "We are the last major domestic mask company," he wrote on Jan. 23. "My phones are ringing now, so I don't 'need' government business. I'm just letting you know that I can help you preserve our infrastructure if things ever get really bad. I'm a patriot first, businessman second."
> ...


There was a little more to that story...
""The company was just extremely difficult to work and communicate with. This was in sharp contrast to groups like the National Council of Textile Organizations and companies like Honeywell and Parkdale Mills, which have helped America very rapidly build up cost effective domestic mask capacity measuring in the hundreds of millions."


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## MacBlaze (Jan 18, 2016)

Ken111 said:


> My wife just told me an hour ago, that it is her wish to cruise southern New England this summer up until September, when we'll then fly over to Greece for six weeks. All activities in our hometown have been cancelled for the summer due to Covid, so now she just wants to get outta Dodge and relax on the boat for a few months, which is fine with me. The boat is presently well-stocked, but will need to be topped off with supplies in St Thomas.


You really think the international borders will be open to tourists by September? I'd be willing to put fiver on that...My money's on that being the last thing to come back to something resembling normalcy.

Meanwhile in Washington, Sucia Island is looking a bit busy...


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## Ken111 (Jan 8, 2020)

MacBlaze said:


> You really think the international borders will be open to tourists by September? I'd be willing to put fiver on that...My money's on that being the last thing to come back to something resembling normalcy.
> 
> Meanwhile in Washington, Sucia Island is looking a bit busy...


Greece is loosening up beginning next week, I'm expecting international flights to resume in July, Greece depends on tourism. If it doesn't happen, no big deal as we have two boats, one in Greece and the one I'm sitting on right now watching a sunset in the Caribbean.

We always have a backup plan.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Schooner Cove Marina, Stamford CT 5.10.20 clear, 60s, windy`
People were out and about. Traffic on the roads seems normal.
People were messing about on their boats... usually in pairs... only some were using PPE of any kind. Stopped at a highway rest stop and everyone in the store had PPE.
Moderately busy for a lovely windy Sunday afternoon.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Ken111 said:


> I'm alone on the boat which is 64ft in length 44 ton, so my plan is to solo sail the 260nm to St Thomas but allow for a place on St Croix to drop the hook for a day or so if I find I'm too tired at around 28 hours of sailing time. I can always check into St Croix using the ROAM app if need be. I'll then pick up my wife and two friends in St Thomas late next week to join me for the sail north stopping at Hampton Virginia and then slowly day hopping up the east coast on our way back to Massachusetts via Long Island, Block Island, Newport, RI etc. My wife just told me an hour ago, that it is her wish to cruise southern New England this summer up until September, when we'll then fly over to Greece for six weeks. All activities in our hometown have been cancelled for the summer due to Covid, so now she just wants to get outta Dodge and relax on the boat for a few months, which is fine with me. The boat is presently well-stocked, but will need to be topped off with supplies in St Thomas.
> 
> I'll call the immigration office in St Croix on Monday to run the plan by them and see if they have any recommendations.


So much for helping others like you said you are about. Another passing thought.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

SanderO said:


> Schooner Cove Marina, Stamford CT 5.10.20 clear, 60s, windy`
> People were out and about. Traffic on the roads seems normal.
> People were messing about on their boats... usually in pairs... only some were using PPE of any kind. Stopped at a highway rest stop and everyone in the store had PPE.
> Moderately busy for a lovely windy Sunday afternoon.


Only bad thing about this time of year working on the boat is when the cold sea breeze makes it to the North Shore of Long Island in the late afternoon and shivers me timbers. A reminder that summer is still a ways off.


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

mbianka said:


> There was a little more to that story...
> ""The company was just extremely difficult to work and communicate with. This was in sharp contrast to groups like the National Council of Textile Organizations and companies like Honeywell and Parkdale Mills, which have helped America very rapidly build up cost effective domestic mask capacity measuring in the hundreds of millions."


Oh, please do tell us what more there was to the story.

As the article says very clearly, it was White House economic adviser and coronavirus task force member Peter Navarro who made this claim. He did not say ANYTHING what was "extremely difficult" about working and communicating with Ameritech.

Where is the "difficulty" if Prestige Ameritech, the last major domestic mask company, offers to sell the government millions of masks a week (made in the USA), at fair market prices, when hundreds of millions will be needed? What was "difficult" about sending them a contract?


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## Ken111 (Jan 8, 2020)

chef2sail said:


> So much for helping others like you said you are about. Another passing thought.


I find your persistent condescending remarks to be juvenile, petty and off topic in nature. Has it ever occurred to you, that my wife and I no longer need to work as nurses as we've been semi-retired for several years? We continue to work part-time as registered nurses because... we enjoy it.

Please try harder to digest this concept. :2 boat:


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

It was gusting 30s most of the weekend (close to 40 at times on Sat), which I think kept attendance way down. Saturday was cold too. Brutal. Most seem pretty compliant with PPE. However, no one keeps it on, when aboard their own boat. Ironically, the rare occasion, when I saw someone without, was a middle aged couple arriving in their car. All the youngins seemed to be wearing, particularly the staff. I would also notice someone on the dock, next to their boat, not wearing, with no one else within 100 ft if them. If this virus could stick in sufficient quantities in that wind, we’re doomed. On Saturday, we were listing 7 degrees at the slip. 

Getting lots done down below. Where it’s sanitary, warm and the fridge is full.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Hear of people pushing the envelope to move boats. Many folks single or cruise as couples but take on crew for passage or long coastal jumps. Usually a non issue. But with limitations on flights even after the slight current relaxation it remains hard to do so. So they are going alone or as two. 
A very close friend on a sistership is taking his Outbound from Norfolk to westerly r.i. Left today. He’s singling but is a highly skilled sailor on a good boat. Still, it will be demanding compared with having even one other on the boat. His plan is to sail days and anchor out nights bypassing all marinas or mooring fields. Usually one makes this trip in one shot enjoying the lift from the current when going north. So his trip will take a much longer time.
Just about every Sunday folks bunch together and take off from the VIs. Many are doing the straight shot passing south of Bermuda to get to home. Many are short handed. Just hope we’re done with the repetitive fronts comings off the east coast. Otherwise it will be a hard passage when shorthanded.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> It was gusting 30s most of the weekend (close to 40 at times on Sat), which I think kept attendance way down. Saturday was cold too. Brutal. Most seem pretty compliant with PPE. However, no one keeps it on, when aboard their own boat. Ironically, the rare occasion, when I saw someone without, was a middle aged couple arriving in their car. All the youngins seemed to be wearing, particularly the staff. I would also notice someone on the dock, next to their boat, not wearing, with no one else within 100 ft if them. If this virus could stick in sufficient quantities in that wind, we're doomed. On Saturday, we were listing 7 degrees at the slip.
> 
> Getting lots done down below. Where it's sanitary, warm and the fridge is full.


Raises the question about how the little buggers "last" in the air. We are told they hitch a ride on moisture expelled in breathing or coughing or sneezing.

Do they remain aloft?
Do the drop to the ground and land on things like railings and remain dangerous?
Does the sunlight UV destroy them?


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## Ken111 (Jan 8, 2020)

outbound said:


> Hear of people pushing the envelope to move boats. Many folks single or cruise as couples but take on crew for passage or long coastal jumps. Usually a non issue. But with limitations on flights even after the slight current relaxation it remains hard to do so. So they are going alone or as two.
> A very close friend on a sistership is taking his Outbound from Norfolk to westerly r.i. Left today. He's singling but is a highly skilled sailor on a good boat. Still, it will be demanding compared with having even one other on the boat. His plan is to sail days and anchor out nights bypassing all marinas or mooring fields. Usually one makes this trip in one shot enjoying the lift from the current when going north. So his trip will take a much longer time.
> Just about every Sunday folks bunch together and take off from the VIs. Many are doing the straight shot passing south of Bermuda to get to home. Many are short handed. Just hope we're done with the repetitive fronts comings off the east coast. Otherwise it will be a hard passage when shorthanded.


Cape May anchored just off the Coast Guard academy is an excellent spot to anchor overnight to break up the trip north. The harbor entrance can be tricky due to swell and current, it's best to time the tide for an approach.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> Oh, please do tell us what more there was to the story.
> 
> As the article says very clearly, it was White House economic adviser and coronavirus task force member Peter Navarro who made this claim. He did not say ANYTHING what was "extremely difficult" about working and communicating with Ameritech.
> 
> Where is the "difficulty" if Prestige Ameritech, the last major domestic mask company, offers to sell the government millions of masks a week (made in the USA), at fair market prices, when hundreds of millions will be needed? What was "difficult" about sending them a contract?


You and I don't know the particulars. But, Navarro and many others with business experience have no doubt been burned by suppliers who promise them delivery of product that never materializes on time. Their time is better spent with those companies with proven results who can provide the quantity needed. Ameritech was still free to manufacture as many masks as they want to. if they actually could make the numbers as they claimed they could still offer to sell them to the government(s) or other customers. They don't need a government contract to do so.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SanderO said:


> Raises the question about how the little buggers "last" in the air. We are told they hitch a ride on moisture expelled in breathing or coughing or sneezing.
> 
> Do they remain aloft?
> Do the drop to the ground and land on things like railings and remain dangerous?
> Does the sunlight UV destroy them?


In order to become infected, you must take on a given amount of the virus. A single cell won't do it, your own immune system can take care of that, it happens every day, with every breath and every bite. You take on all sorts of viruses and bacteria.

Different vectors contain different quantities. The lowest is typically what you touch. Speaking to someone, within 6ft, requires a period of time in contact for enough particles to pass. A cough can do it in one shot. The largest carrier is a sneeze, which contains thousands of times more particles than necessary and travels furthest.

Nothing I've read says it lingers in the air very long. On a windy day, it's dispersed quickly, so the concentration is lower.

I also understand coronavirus is fairly fragile. That's why it's easily killed by washing your hands with regular soap. Not sure about UV. They also die naturally on surfaces over time. IIRC, most quickly on paper and cloth, slowest on stainless steel. I think copper surfaces kills them fast too. Ironically, they are preserved in the freezer.

In the end, a windy marina, distanced from ones neighbors, is a pretty safe place to be, as I understand the epidemiology. One still must take precautions, masks in the vicinity of others, hand washing, surface disinfection, etc. We need to be smart about dealing with this new normal, but it won't require most to hide and shut everything down. Those with compromised immune systems, who by definition require less exposure to fall ill, should take more extreme precautions.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Ken111 said:


> Cape May anchored just off the Coast Guard academy.....


Pedantic, I know, but that's a training center. The academy is in New London, CT.


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

mbianka said:


> You and I don't know the particulars. But, Navarro and many others with business experience have no doubt been burned by suppliers who promise them delivery of product that never materializes on time.


Navarro has exactly ZERO business experience, he is a retired economics professor. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Navarro After running several times for public office (mayor etc), all failed, he joined the Trump campaign.



mbianka said:


> Their time is better spent with those companies with proven results who can provide the quantity needed.


Right.

This is why the Federal government awarded a $55 Million contract to a bankrupt company that had zero employees since May 2018. Furthermore the company has never made a single mask, and never will. They are not a manufacturer but a middleman that buys masks who-knows-where and marks them up. And no, they were not in the masks business before this, they have "no history of manufacturing or procuring medical equipment", their business was "tactical training and equipment." Proven results indeed!

The Feds paid them $5.50 a piece of *OUR* money when they could have bought them for 79 cents from Prestige Ameritech (who is still selling them at this price). Now that's true business acumen!

"Something is amiss there," said Chuck Hagel, a former defense secretary and Republican senator from Nebraska. "This is not how the government procures training or any type of supplies. You just wouldn't do business with somebody like that." https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...186276-7f20-11ea-8de7-9fdff6d5d83e_story.html



mbianka said:


> Ameritech was still free to manufacture as many masks as they want to. if they actually could make the numbers as they claimed they could still offer to sell them to the government(s) or other customers. They don't need a government contract to do so.


You are absolutely right. And that is exactly what they did, they did offer them to other customers who did understand what was going on.

After Prestige Ameritech told the US government in January (!) that there was going to be a huge need for masks, offering to sell them at 79cts and the US government showed no interest in buying the masks, they sold them to China https://www.washingtonpost.com/heal...ht-hydroxychloroquine-whistleblower-complaint

Clearly the administration acted in the best interest of the American people.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

_This is why the Federal government awarded a $55 Million contract to a bankrupt company that had zero employees since May 2018. Furthermore the company has never made a single mask, and never will. They are not a manufacturer but a middleman that buys masks who-knows-where and marks them up. And no, they were not in the masks business before this, they have "no history of manufacturing or procuring medical equipment", their business was "tactical training and equipment." Proven results indeed!

The Feds paid them $5.50 a piece of *OUR* money when they could have bought them for 79 cents from Prestige Ameritech (who is still selling them at this price). Now that's true business acumen!

"Something is amiss there," said Chuck Hagel, a former defense secretary and Republican senator from Nebraska. "This is not how the government procures training or any type of supplies. You just wouldn't do business with somebody like that." 
_

I agree the deal with Panthera does smell funny and there should be an investigation as to how it came about. I suspect some lower level FEMA bureaucrat had some behind the scenes sweetheart deal with the company. Once things settle down let the investigations begin.

_"You are absolutely right. And that is exactly what they did, they did offer them to other customers who did understand what was going on.

After Prestige Ameritech told the US government in January (!) that there was going to be a huge need for masks, offering to sell them at 79cts and the US government showed no interest in buying the masks, they sold them to China " _

Apparently, no one else in the U.S was interested in purchasing the masks at that time either. But, in the end Prestige Ameritech did get a contract for 9.5 million for 12 million N95 respirators as did Honeywell and 3M. But, I agree the Panthera deal should be investigated maybe it already is.


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

Yesterday was a beautiful, warm and sunny day. Perfect for working on the boat. Except it was Mother's Day. So, no. 

I went to try and get some waxing done on my boat on Saturday. Partly sunny, but cold; I think it was somewhere in the mid 40's. But that's without the wind chill. We had steady winds around 20 knots, with gusts of around 30 or so. I was wearing a ski jacket and hat, and I didn't last more than about 20 minutes before I gave up. I think I could have toughed it out a little longer, but when it started to snow, I bowed to the inevitable. I originally thought I was the only one in the yard working, but I saw two other guys doing some prep work as I drove away. Maybe a quarter of the boats on the hard have been launched now. It looked like the majority of those launched were the larger boats (40+ feet). I wonder if that's because they're paying the yard to prep them?

I still get a little thrill from the before and after looks on the hull. I didn't get much done at all, but it was rewarding. The 3M Medium One Step is a miracle product.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> In order to become infected, you must take on a given amount of the virus. A single cell won't do it, your own immune system can take care of that, it happens every day, with every breath and every bite. You take on all sorts of viruses and bacteria.
> 
> Different vectors contain different quantities. The lowest is typically what you touch. Speaking to someone, within 6ft, requires a period of time in contact for enough particles to pass. A cough can do it in one shot. The largest carrier is a sneeze, which contains thousands of times more particles than necessary and travels furthest.
> 
> ...


Honest ....let's not be experts or pretend to be experts in fields we aren't trained to be experts in. Statements which appear to be factual are dangerous.

Outbound is a bonifide medical doctor. Sander and architect, 
Me, a administrator of $64 million in food service contracts and ex executive chef, with a masters in psychology you an airline pilot, with probably other education.

None of us are trained enough to speak about epidemiology or its results with the exception of maybe Dr Outbound. When the topic is boats, we all have opinions and have experience in them so it's valid to make statements based on experience about boats. A subject like Epidemiology ....no. That's like Trump talking about it and we ALL know where that's getting you. For all we know you statements like his are based on a gut feeling as opposed to being a trained scientist.

I'm not trying to start any arguments or denigrate you, but let's stay a little in our lanes. The topic is too important and volatile to have bulls..t hypothesis or analysis circling around the drain. &#55357;&#56836;&#55357;&#56835;&#55357;&#56835;&#55357;&#56835;&#55357;&#56835;


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## Ken111 (Jan 8, 2020)

Minnewaska said:


> In order to become infected, you must take on a given amount of the virus. A single cell won't do it, your own immune system can take care of that, it happens every day, with every breath and every bite. You take on all sorts of viruses and bacteria.
> 
> Different vectors contain different quantities. The lowest is typically what you touch. Speaking to someone, within 6ft, requires a period of time in contact for enough particles to pass. A cough can do it in one shot. The largest carrier is a sneeze, which contains thousands of times more particles than necessary and travels furthest.
> 
> ...





chef2sail said:


> Honest ....let's not be experts or pretend to be experts in fields we aren't trained to be experts in. Statements which appear to be factual are dangerous.
> 
> Outbound is a bonifide medical doctor. Sander and architect,
> Me, a administrator of $64 million in food service contracts and ex executive chef, with a masters in psychology you an airline pilot, with probably other education.
> ...


I'm a registered nurse having worked in acute settings in hospitals for many years with sick patients, many with infections and much more lethal diseases than Covid.

Minnewaska is correct on all points made in his post. There's no way this virus or any other virus can be transmitted across a marina through the air between people on separate boats more than 6-10 apart. Ridiculousness. As ridiculous as the Californians believing they could catch Covid from the seawater at the beach.

The hysteria feeds this nonsense.. too many people sitting home watching way too much TV and zombie apocalypse flicks.

And it was a "scientist" who came up with the seawater balogna out in California. People catching covid by breathing the seawater mist containing fecal matter coming off the breaking waves as they strolled down beach... It just goes to show how many simpletons are amongst us.


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## Ken111 (Jan 8, 2020)

I’m seeing pleasure boats coming and going all day long from the marina today, the French must have loosened up the restrictions here on the island. Hooray!


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Ken111 said:


> I'm a registered nurse having worked in acute settings in hospitals for many years with sick patients, many with infections and much more lethal diseases than Covid.
> 
> Minnewaska is correct on all points made in his post. There's no way this virus can be transmitted across a marina through the air. Ridiculousness. As ridiculous as the Californians believing they could catch Covid from the seawater at the beach.
> 
> The hysteria feeds this nonsense.


Sir with due respect,

My wife is a RN nurse also with specialty in newborns and epidemiology . So she has as much training with many more years experience Than you and isn't sitting on a boat but is on the front lines now. She would no more consider herself an expert in this than the man in the moon. While being a nurse as she is and you wife and maybe you are, is so important and vital in the medical care, You are not a doctor. You are not a trained epidemiologist. ( wasn't it you who challenged Dr Outbound openly on here and his Medical credentials)

FroM what we can see so far you have made many statements contradicting them selves. Started with you promoting some business/ non business by using its name as your screename which was a violation of this sites TOS.

You are not an expert in epidemiology therefore your recommendations should be considered suspect. Listening to you is contributing to the hysteria. You are in fact the last person I would suggest listening to.

I listen to Fauci. Not someone sitting on an Oyster 62 in a Carribean Harbor. I listen to the head of Colombia's school of medicine who I just watched state the opposite of what you just said.

So who should I listen to Dr Fauci / head of Colombia School of medicine or someone who is pontificating about stuff from an anchorage 1000 of mikes away who keeps making head scratching statements. 
If its my credibility I would rather Restate what Fauci said .

If you want to talk about Oysters, chartering , anchoring
I'm all ears as according to your own website you are an expert and want to make money as a " consultant " on this.

Medical advice should come from the highly specialized educated scientists and doctors.


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## Ken111 (Jan 8, 2020)

chef2sail said:


> Sir with due respect,
> 
> My wife is a RN nurse also with specialty in newborns and epidemiology . So she has as much training with many more years experience Than you and isn't sitting on a boat but is on the front lines now. She would no more consider herself an expert in this than the man in the moon. While being a nurse as she is and you wife and maybe you are, is so important and vital in the medical care, You are not a doctor. You are not a trained epidemiologist. ( wasn't it you who challenged Dr Outbound openly on here and his Medical credentials)
> 
> ...


I find your very persistent condescending, derogatory remarks to be juvenile, petty and definitely off topic in nature. Apparently it hasn't occurred to you, that my wife and I no longer need to work as nurses full-time as we've been semi-retired for several years? We continue to work part-time as registered nurses because... we enjoy it.

Please try even harder to digest this concept. :2 boat:


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Back to the main topic 

We were out sailing yesterday on nice 14 steady gusts to 25. Off of Annapolis there were several hundred boats who were out enjoying themselves

At our marina the rule was posted. Masks on the docks, but not in your boats. Everyone was glad to see each other and many had conversations with appropriate distancing. The marina owner made it clear that following the masks order was not voluntary and that he’d suspend privileges for repeated offenders. 

Our shakedown was uneventful. I was able to replace the Danfoss module on the compressor which had died and the refrigeration was back to normal. 

A week from Friday we begin a 17 day intra Chesapeake tour vs our usual LI Sound or Newport run. Made sense in light of conditions. While we planned on doing Yorktown as we had done a few times, all the museums there, Jamestown, and Williamsburg were not open as of today. So we will be content to just float around and anchor wherever the wind and spirit takes us. Cape Charles, Ononcock, some of the Zpotomac Creeks May be on the agenda , as well as some of our normal cruising spots on the Choptank, Wye, or Chester Rivers. 

It’s just good to be out of the house in the open. It’s also good for my wife to be out of the hospital , where the psyche nurse and dr as well as other staff is pressurized. I can see it in her face every work day and try by being present to help her in dealing with what is hard for her to see. 

The hardest thing she says are two factors, First she has all this PPE she wears including face plate she feels she’s lost contact with the babies and patients , a very important part of her job. Secondly the patients she’s had who had Covid 19 are alone. Isolated fro loved ones . Only people around them in PPE. The toll on them is very difficult for her to deal with. 

Do the marinas being open and us being out in the water was good therapy for her.

God bless the medical workers who are actually working on the front lines. They are so very special to be nurturing and willing to work putting themselves in harms way to take care of other human beings. As my wife says she fears being infected and being alone the worst. Yet she goes in day after day. She is my hero


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

mbianka said:


> _This is why the Federal government awarded a $55 Million contract to a bankrupt company that had zero employees since May 2018. Furthermore the company has never made a single mask, and never will. They are not a manufacturer but a middleman that buys masks who-knows-where and marks them up. And no, they were not in the masks business before this, they have "no history of manufacturing or procuring medical equipment", their business was "tactical training and equipment." Proven results indeed!
> 
> The Feds paid them $5.50 a piece of *OUR* money when they could have bought them for 79 cents from Prestige Ameritech (who is still selling them at this price). Now that's true business acumen!
> 
> ...


Glad we agree on that.

But in my opinion the view of the 'good Czar' whose work is hamstrung by low level bureaucrats (FEMA) is misguided. Peter Navarro is the opposite of a low level bureaucrat. He is Assistant to the President, Director of Trade and Manufacturing Policy, and the national Defense Production Act policy coordinator, making him one of the closest advisors to the President. Even after this level was warned nothing happened until April 7 when, indeed, Ameritech got the contract for the masks, as you say. Ten crucial weeks were lost, from Jan. 26 to April 7. In this time, Ameritech could have provided 17 million masks to American Health care workers that now went to China because the Feds dropped the ball, claiming Covid would magically disappear, is not worse than the flu, and other political BS.

How many health care providers died because these 17 million masks were missing?


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

We're veering wildly off the general sailing discussion.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Agree with Donna. The other stuff should only come into to discussion when your personal behavior effects your risk or you present an increased risk to others. Or you say stuff which isn’t factual. 
Friend on sistership is single handing his Outbound home. It had its large port lights redone due to leaks. It was in Norfolk VA for that work and needs to go to Wickford RI as a summer base. He choose to go up the chessie, through the C&D down the Delaware. The big jump is the typical Cape May to Atlantic Highlands/Sandy. Then up the east river and then the Connecticut side of LIS. This is the common way to do this trip when there’s weather outside or your short handed and only want to travel during daylight. So we’ve been following on MarineTraffic and his wife calls us frequently. 
Seems there’s a fair number of people doing this. Seems it’s fairly common to just provision for the whole trip and bypass all the marinas. 
More so up north than in the south but true both places you have a choice. Be a transient in a slip or anchor out. We dislike slips and even mooring fields but many people like the convenience of a slip with shore water/power or a launch service to a mooring field. Makes shopping and tourist activities much easier. 
Now with people moving boats anchoring out either because they’re short handed or to decrease expense or to increase a days work wonder if transient slip volume will remain down and even there be less vessels on pendants. Be a significant hit on marinas.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

I have a different outlook than Outlook😊

It’s great to see marinas in Maryland and elsewhere opening. I’m not a cruiser. Most of my boating friends are not cruisers. They are weekend sailors with occasional weekly trips. We keep our boats in marinas or moorings.
Because of that I see no reason that the use of marinas will decrease unless the majority of the sailboat industry tanks. 

It’s to easy to get caught up in the movement and the plight of the cruisers when the marinas are not and never have been supported by them. Because of that it really makes no difference if the marinas were open or not. The majority of the sailboaters posting here I would venture to bet are kept in marinas or moorings and them not opening has had a sobering effect on their financial security.

With due respect this is not meant to be a cruisers vs other sailors post. It is stating the obvious. Marinas success depends on the weekend sailors who 1- either keep their boats in marinas or 2- take trips staying some number of days in a marina for the amenities . Our boats are not set up for 15 days in a row at anchor. I also think you can add those who keep their boats on moorings....usually marina or town owned. The majority of sailboats are 40 ft or less And aren’t outfitted with robust energy capture, large fuel and water tanks, or water makers. 

I consider my wife and I the average sailor. We prefer to anchor out. We are set up to spend 10-15 days not going into a slip, but I bet the majority of sailors are not. That being said we keep our boat in a marina, and when we cruise for 15-23 days we do spend at least a few days in a couple of marinas to really make life easier for us. 

Sometimes these discussions get centered on the type of sailing we do, maybe not observing what the majority does. The 18 day vacation we are taking starting a week from Friday has been reconfigured a number of times because of the virus. We are staying in the Chessie. We are limiting our time in marinas because many have just opened and from what we have deserved, many don’t get this social distancing concept. 

So the marinas now open really benefit the majority of sailors who keep boats there , they will thrive because that’s where the marinas majority income comes from. Slip holders and possibly repair and fuel docks. They being closed hurt the marine industry as whole , yes, but their bread is buttered not by cruisers but by locals and slip holders. It’s good to see the ones in our areas now open.

As a side we’ve gotten to go sailing Sunday and today. About 45 days later start than we usually have.

Marinas on the east coast are mostly open now. Hopefully our fellow boaters don’t screw up this PRIVILEDGE by not social distancing forcing the governors to shut down everything again because of an uncontrollable spike in cases and death like we were headed before the social distancing.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Chef instead of thinking about units think about margin. Trawler comes in takes on 1000+ g of diesel.
Not to many people in the >50’ range are preparing and painting their bottoms. Yes some marinas/yards won’t let you sand but most will let you do some work on the boat. I had small sailboats ((<40’) for decades. Other than rent (layup) spent no money in the yard. Yards aren’t keen on sailboats They prefer motor craft . More service, fuel and profit. They prefer big to little. More profit. So chef agree with your impression but other than the big sportfish crowd there’s litter profit available to the yards.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Friend left Norfolk. Now at mouth of Delaware. No marina stops. Other friend Ft. Pierce to Savanna. Again no marina stops.
Strippers are in!!!! As high up as Onset in Buzzards bay. Went fly fishing yesterday on the falling tide with friend with center console. We took two vehicles. Left the motor boat at home. You can fish with a friend from shore and not violate best practices social distancing But you can’t do that on a small boat. It was windy but able to hookup some schoolies. This year it’s only one keeper allowed and 3 blues. Side benefit of covid may be recovery of game fish fishing stocks. Our usual spots were totally empty even of the surf casting folks.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Ontario Government announced yesterday that marinas, yacht clubs and boat launches are opening tomorrow. Travel restrictions are still in place, but if you are a resident of Ontario, you can use your boat provided social distancing is followed. I understand there are still police check points between Quebec and Ontario though. Oddly, I believe crown land camping is still prohibited, which includes sleeping on your boat at anchor.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

outbound said:


> Chef instead of thinking about units think about margin. Trawler comes in takes on 1000+ g of diesel.
> Not to many people in the >50' range are preparing and painting their bottoms. Yes some marinas/yards won't let you sand but most will let you do some work on the boat. I had small sailboats ((<40') for decades. Other than rent (layup) spent no money in the yard. Yards aren't keen on sailboats They prefer motor craft . More service, fuel and profit. They prefer big to little. More profit. So chef agree with your impression but other than the big sportfish crowd there's litter profit available to the yards.


Our 122 slips, 90 percent sailboats , no fuel dock. Most Chessie marinas don't have fuel docks. Less than 20% have travel lifts.

Profit or income is mainly slip rental. Same was true with the yacht club I was the Commadore at.....though it had a fuel dock. It was very lucky to break even. The costs associated with it are astronomical .


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Gorgeous day today, well the afternoon anyway. 

Lots of people at their boats. Mask wearing is declining noticeably. All ages. No big parties, but folks right on top of each other for short periods. Stay at home was lifted and gatherings of 5 or less are permitted, so this isn’t violating law. However, I was hoping people would be a bit more cautious for a while. No reason not to be outdoors in ones boat. Still reason to wonder where those who are not in your house have been. 

It’s their business whether they risk getting sick or not. Most will be just fine. However, if the hospitals fill, I don’t want to be shut down again. This can be done smartly, but folks need to play along. 

We are going to get together for drinks, with our neighbors, in our cockpit tomorrow night. All outdoors, all six feet apart. Should be fine.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Thats a big cockpit


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

RegisteredUser said:


> Thats a big cockpit


Deck salon, as they say. Technically seats 12, plus two more at the helms.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

My boat was launched 8 am today at my club in the Delaware River. High tides all week have been weak due to the strong northwesterlies in the Delaware Bay, and I was concerned that I would be dragging in a few inches of mud. I called TowBoatUS last night and explained that the morning tide may be weaker than normal, asking for a boat to be in the area to respond quickly if I needed to be pulled out. I had done this 3 or 4 years ago, and it was very helpful (and fully covered on my Unlimited policy). This time, after answering the dispatcher's questions, she informed me that she was declining coverage due to a pre-existing condition, but she'd be happy to send a boat if I wanted to pay for it. It took a lot of restraint to avoid saying F-U. This morning (after I launched) the owner of the Philadelphia tow boat called me to apologize, saying that she had never had coverage declined for a request like mine.

The yard wanted me out of the way since it would allow them to angle the lift in to pick up my next door neighbor's boat (because he was blocked from the rear by a huge boat whose owner has disappeared). Plus, I wanted to get on with it. So instead of TowBoatUS, we called the tender operator from an adjacent club to be on standby for a possible tow. It turned out that my 35HP was enough to get me slowly through the mud, and surprisingly very little mud was churned up by my prop (so the HX didn't clog).

I had wind on the nose all day, so I motored down the river and C&D canal. I was getting 8 knots at 2200 RPM in the river due to favorable current, getting to the canal much faster than planned. That put me in the canal at the peak opposing current, so it was a slog at 4.5 knots at 2500 RPM. I'm now anchored at Chesapeake City.

I had some interesting anchoring issues. I got here early and staked out my place. Another guy came in and anchored a little bit close to me, but not dangerously so. He asked me if I was concerned, and I told him he was a little bit close, but I'd prefer he stay there because if he moved away from me we'd probably have someone else come in and park between us anyway. I told him this had happened to me a couple years ago, overnight while I was asleep. He said he was going to move, and I said, "That's fine if you want to, but don't do it because of me." Sure enough, a few minutes later a family came along in some 580 power boat (58' long) and dropped anchor and let out so much scope that they nearly backed into a boat next to me. Then they did the exact same thing to the guy who had moved over to my other side. At this point I decided to go to my bow to watch out, fearful that my boat was next, so I got out my dinghy and started inflating it on my bow to give me something to do. I looked up and saw this same boat drop his anchor DIRECTLY in front of me, but backing up sideways at a 90 degree angle to the wind. I yelled over to them, "Excuse me, but you just dropped your anchor directly in front of me." The wife said, "It's OK, we'll swing together." I told her, "No, as soon as your husband puts the boat in neutral, it will swing around with the wind and hit me." And that is exactly what would have happened, because when you add scope plus the length of their boat, they would have hit me. After she engaged in some back and forth with her husband over a walkie-talkie, they pulled anchor and left.

As soon as they were gone, the guy who had moved yelled over to me, "I see what you mean. I should have stayed put like you suggested."


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Yards are so different depending where you are. Think it relates to local population density, mean income, culture and other intangibles. Sounds like marinas in Chef’s are are better positioned to ride this out. Up here remain concerned.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

Got back to the boatyard today and found the boats in front of me had been launched so I can have my boat launched anytime when I'm ready. My mooring is also in.
Boatyard guys were working on a rare Saturday painting bottoms.
The dock was filled with power boats and it looked like a typical summer crowd on the docks and boats. People were socializing but keeping a distance. Some with masks some not.
Saw some folks picnicking on the middle harbor island with Kayaks and Paddle boards.
Beach Parking lot had cars but, spaced out with a Town Police Car at the gate to limit the amount of cars in the lot.
No fishing
No Coolers
No Chairs or umbrellas
No Sunsets gates are locked at 6 PM!


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