# The old men and women of the sea...



## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

Two weekends ago I crewed in my first race on a friend's J-24. Didn't do so well, but it was also my first introduction to the sailing/racing set on HHI, and it was an eye-opener. The race included a half-dozen Harbor 20s, which are beautiful little one-design boats with self-tailing jibs, enormous cockpits, and battery powered motors. They also cost around $30,000. We were in the midst of some powerful spring tides, so at the end of the race, all of the H-20s had to be towed back to Windmill Harbour, as the tide was on the way out and their batteries had all expired. They all lined up, stem to stern, and all six were slowly towed behind a single Whaler. They all appeared to be crewed and skippered by people in their sixties and seventies, and as they headed home their silver heads stood over the cockpit coamings. It was an amusing sight: six sailboats being towed, a total of $180,000 dollars in pretty little watercraft. Anyway, it got my friends and myself to thinking. Ten years ago this race would have sixty boats instead of thirty, my J-24 friend explained. "You're in love with a dying sport," he said. My reply was, "I'm fine with that."
And I am -- but only to a point. I really don't care that North Americans don't want to sail, as it's my view that sailing requires that you devote a certain high level of time and energy to it, or else you end up in a world of regret. The pity in it all is that so few people actually get to experience this. Most of the people on this forum know what they'd be missing if they didn't sail, and my guess is that you'd all turn into a bunch of roaring alcoholics if you couldn't do it. I'm not evangelical about sailing, but I've had my boat for exactly a year, and I've taken just over 90 people out on my little C30 (90 different people). Most live on HHI, and it was their first sailing experience for nearly all of them. At the end of nearly every sail, they can't wait to go again. They love it. We get calls all the time to see if we're going out on the boat, and I do my best to cancel whatever I'm supposed to be doing in order to reprise the experience.
I apologize for the long thread, but this idea that we are all in love with such an all-consuming but dying way of life is incredible to me. We Americans are a stupid and lazy bunch who would rather watch Nascar, so I really shouldn't care at all... The reason I posted this is to get other views on the topic. CD touched on the subject in his thread concerning all the sh---y boats out there on the market, which, in my opinion, only confirms what we all know deep down to be the case. Thoughts?


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## AjariBonten (Sep 7, 2007)

*I couldn't agree more .....*

But it's not just sailing!

Pick any "old art" that leads to any sort of self sufficiency. The sad fact is, much of our skill base and brain exercise is being co-opted by technology.

Ask yourself; how many phone numbers can you remember off the top of your head, and how many do you ask your cell phone to remember for you? (I'm particularly guilty of this one!)

I read somewhere that 100 years ago it was possible for a single individual to have a working understanding of the entire range of human knowledge. Tnat is simply not possible now.

As a species we are sowing the seeds of our own destruction. Now, I am no luddite. I embrace technology as much as the next fellow. However, I try to be conscious when I make a decision to abdicate a responsibility to a technological fix; and I make a concerted effort to retain the skill and knowledge base to do it myself.

Navigation for example. I *LOVE* GPS AND RADAR! However, I practice the old arts, and will make damn sure to fully learn celestial navigation when I begin long term cruising.

I don't HAVE to heat my home with wood; but I'm damn sure gonna be ABLE to!

And so on..... And so on......


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Actually Hog, in my Country its the opposite, more people sailing now then ever. 

The sailing club where my son races has a waiting list of at least 30 kids.

Most clubs have the teams full, and the amount of older people getting into sailing increased by almost 120% since last year.

We have a problem now..not enough boats for the kids to start.

I know a guy that drives evry Saturday and every sunday, 100 miles each way, so his son can sail in an Opti.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

There's a vast difference between the US and Portugal in many things. Family is still important in Portugal, and the youth there haven't been overwhelmed by the technology available to them. In some ways I feel very sorry for kids growing up today...yes, they have high-speed internet, fast computers, X-Box, Playstation III, cell phones with IM and internet capabilities, but they seem to be missing out on so much of what I had when I was their age. Hiking, camping, sailing, canoeing, fishing, and most of the other outdoor recreation, aside from the highly regimented after school sports, all seem to be missing from their lives. When was the last time you saw a bunch of kids playing a pickup game of kickball or soccer. Around here, I haven't seen anything like that in a long time. When I was growing up, it happened almost weekly. 

Most of the marinas around here have racing programs, but most aren't targeted towards supporting young sailors. It is pretty hard to get into sailing if you don't have anyone around you that does sail. Boats are expensive, yatch clubs memberships are expensive, and I know a lot of teens that would love to learn to sail, if they just had an opportunity to do so. 

Part of the problem is that sailing isn't seen as an accessible sport for many, mostly due to the expense of the sport. I find that to be somewhat a cop-out.... look at golf and skiing.. both are pretty expensive sports, and a good set of golf clubs or skis probably goes for what a small car-toppable dinghy would. 

I've donated my time and money to several programs that do cater to young sailors... but they're pretty far and few between, even up here in New England, where sailing is more of a tradition than it is in other parts of the US.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

The impressionistic painting sailhog illustrated depicting sailing as an old geezer's club, may be his localized and narrowly focused vision. In the waters in and around Newport Harbor, this can't be any further from truth.

On any summer day, even thoughout the winter with frostbite series, scores of youthful sailors can be spotted gaining sailing experience through youth programs with Sail Newport and local Yacht Clubs. The many regattas on the Bay and Harbor have actually become navigational hazards to other boaters.

Sail Newport alone has youth programs starting with little guppies:










and 7-15 age groups sailing their 8 foot prams, like Optis:










11-17 year olds in Hunter 140s










all ages and skill levels in Windsurfers










11-18 year olds in their Lasers and C420s










and the 12-17 year olds in their J22s










It's by no means a dying sport around here.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

TB-

Newport is a bit of an exception, since it really is a mecca in the US for sailing. I am willing to bet outside of Marblehead, Newport, Annapolis and couple of other places, finding large youth programs that cover the range that you show in your post is really rare.


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## Waterrat (Sep 8, 2007)

I am a teacher and I have noticed an ever increaseing number of people looking for instant satisfaction. If they can't get it now why bother. Sometimes it appears that parents let their chidren get raised by televeisons and vidieo games and I definetly do not want our media setting the standards for our youth. This is exactly what is happening. What do most american families do when they get home? They turn on the televison and veg out. Where will this lead our society? The loss of interest in sailing is just one of the many outcomes of this technalogical age. I am not against technology because it is a wonderful tool but like every powerful tool it can be used for the good or the bad. 

I say throw away your televison and vidieo games and take your children to the wilds.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

While a few years old, the enclosed linked boating survey indicates that there are about 10 million sailors in the USA..about 1/2 in small boats and the rest in aux powered boats. Average days on the water is 25 for aux and 10 for small boats. 
http://www.uscgboating.org/statistics/USCG_NRBS 2002-Report.pdf


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## Waterrat (Sep 8, 2007)

TB

That is what I like to see. Kids having fun learning new skills and hanging outside.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

If sailing popularity is declining in areas where it once thrived, I don't believe the main reason is money. Fees for many of the youth programs I stated are certainly not free, but most are affordable. The boats are provided by the instruction facility and parent provided equipment, like pfds, is inexpensive. 

This has less to do with ". . . high-speed internet, fast computers, X-Box, Playstation III, cell phones with IM and internet capabilities" but more related to a lack of motivational interest from the parents. If the parents encouraged their kids to participate in sailing, more youth sailing programs would either remain through public support, or it would become a stimulus for new program start-ups.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

But we have all those electronic gizmos too....

My son even has a PS on my boat, he has aportable PS, a nintendo 2 and a nintendo DS...he has access to TV, and all that...and we don't set schedules on him...

He does good in school, he does as he pleases....however...we do force him, for 5 minutes every saturday and every sunday morning, becaue the bugger wants to stay in bed...but after washing his face is all about sailing...

And nothing gives me more pleasure, than picking him up from sailing and he spends the 15 to 20 minute ride home talking about it...as if he was still there....

I encourage him to take his friends to sailing and bring the kids along, many of them at a time, sometimes...

I think our job as parents is set the goals for our children to attain, and based on their achievemnts of such goals, reward with TV time, and nintendos....

Fred gets to go to Toy's R US everytime he gets over 85% in any school test. He does do good sometimes....

Give and take...that's what I teach him....sailing for him, is now a thing he does with such pleasure, we actually went from thinking he just "didn't have it", in the begining to "wow....he's getting pretty good"....


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## tommyt (Sep 21, 2002)

Hog,

I see quite a few programs for the young in N. Michigan. Community programs and YC programs for beginning to late teen sailors. This is on both L. Michigan and larger inland lakes in the area. The same is available along the coast from Chicago to Mackinac City on both sides of the lake.

The percentages are never going to be high because there are so many things available to the younger generation today. That is not exclusive to XBox, high speed internet, which is available world wide today by the way. Fred has many options, and he and his parents decide how to focus his energies.

Growing up in the suburbs of Detroit in the 50's and early 60's we had a lot
less options than I would have liked. Boy Scouts got us involved in the community and camping, canoeing, etc. Organized little league was sparse. Basketball...not a lot of options outside of your driveway. 

My 11 year old grand daughter has taken a couple of years lessons in Prams and really enjoyed them. She passed on last summers lessons because of her involvement with her softball team and basketball clinics. There is just so much that a kid can fit in, and their options are endless. Deciding on their passion early and focusing on it allows time for school and friends. Doing a little of everything is just not an option today if you want to be competitive.

I hope that she decides that she wants to get into a competitive racing program in the future. However, it is more important to me that she loves to sail with me, I can always arrange my time to sail with her, and we have fun doing it. My only problem today is her schedule is beginning to interfere with my time on the water and on the golf course. Between softball, basketball, volleyball, choir, etc. I am attending lots of different venues. Factor in the practices and travel time, her mother is on the move all the time. Happy to be a grand parent...less pressure.

So, one last question to Hog. I know that HHI is a diverse community,but what is the average age of citizens on the island? Do the silver haired folks represent a majority? Wish I was one of them at the moment. 34 degrees, wind at 35 kts., gusts to 44 kts., wind chill 25 degrees, 2' waves in front of my house on an inland lake, and the bouy in the middle of L. Michgan registers 10' waves consistently. 

A Bald Ancient Mariner


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## TSteele65 (Oct 19, 2006)

From what I understand, youth sailing programs have been rapidly expanding in the Chesapeake region, mostly in the Annapolis area.

Growing up in Maryland, I was exposed to boating at a very young age, but didn't try sailing until I got to college. I was lucky enough to go to a school on the eastern shore of MD which had a fine sailing club, with numerous Lasers and 420s, and even a few larger sloops (mostly donated boats). In fact, the college has had a nationally-ranked sailing team for the last decade or so. Bardo is a fellow alum.  

My 3 yr old daughter is already begging to go sailing, and I'll probably put her in a course in the next couple of years. A friend of mine lives much closer to Annapolis, and he tells me that there are waiting lists for certain programs.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

TB-

I was more talking about money being a bigger factor in areas that aren't well supported by such youth programs, which do subsidize the cost of learning to sail quite a bit.



TrueBlue said:


> If sailing popularity is declining in areas where it once thrived, I don't believe the main reason is money. Fees for many of the youth programs I stated are certainly not free, but most are affordable. The boats are provided by the instruction facility and parent provided equipment, like pfds, is inexpensive.


As for a lack of motivational interest from the parents, I think that it is hard for youth to learn to sail without parental support, and many people didn't grow up in families where sailing was a part of their normal activities. In many ways, the only reason I sail and am a sailor is because both my twin and I were interested in it-no one else in my family sails, and neither do most of my friends.

I don't think the high-speed internet etc is necessarily the reason kids don't sail, but it does have something to do with their lack of spending time outdoors. It also tends to create and foster an environment of instant gratification, which a sailboat isn't going to be able to deliver generally. 


> This has less to do with ". . . high-speed internet, fast computers, X-Box, Playstation III, cell phones with IM and internet capabilities" but more related to a lack of motivational interest from the parents. If the parents encouraged their kids to participate in sailing, more youth sailing programs would either remain through public support, or it would become a stimulus for new program start-ups.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> In some ways I feel very sorry for kids growing up today...yes, they have high-speed internet, fast computers, X-Box, Playstation III, cell phones with IM and internet capabilities, but they seem to be missing out on so much of what I had when I was their age.


_Or they don't._ If the parents don't buy it for them, they don't have these little time-wasters....although they might whine about it. My son (age 6) has a cheap, hand-held video game that teaches him spelling. He likes it as much as a learn-nothing game because it allows him to proceed at his own pace.

One of the reasons we are going cruising for five years is because we deliberately want to keep our son away from our own culture during his formative years, because we have real reservations about the values of our culture, and about the way in which parents have ceded the responsibility of raising their children to the schools, television, toys designed to market other toys, and the sort of viciousness that thinks having a 9-year-old girl wear make-up, a belly-baring shirt and the word "*****" on the seat of her pants is "cute".

Better to be on a boat, seeing how the rest of the world lives, while there is still a rest of the world to visit, and from which to learn.


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## AjariBonten (Sep 7, 2007)

Valiente said:


> _........and the sort of viciousness that thinks having a 9-year-old girl wear make-up, a belly-baring shirt and the word "*****" on the seat of her pants is "cute".
> 
> Better to be on a boat, seeing how the rest of the world lives, while there is still a rest of the world to visit, and from which to learn._


_

HEAR! HEAR!
Now, if I could only scoop up my grandkids and be off............._


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

Sailingdog, I agree. Sailing is expensive. Show me someone who doesn't think so, and I'll show you someone who makes too much money. :lol: YC fees, race fees, equipment, its all money. Boating in general is expensive, its a luxury that most can't afford and I, nor my parents, certainly couldn't afford it when I was younger (now 26). There are extremely few young people interested in sailing. Go to any hang out (besides a marina) and ask how many sail. Go to a club or a bar ask the same. Take a poll in any high school. Sailing is so far out of sight out of mind that most kids don't even know the difference between the bow and stern of a boat. 

When I was younger my parents told me to go outside, or I'd be grounded. So we'd have to find something to entertain ourselves. With regards to the interweb, you just click and BANG, your done. It seems if you search internet everything has already been done, and someone's written a blog about it. So why bother doing it yourself. Apathy will kill any dream. 

BTW, I'm not ready to throw away my video games just yet.


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

Valiente, +1 right on...


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I would think that part of it is also that sailing isnt ""cool"". 
When I say that I mean it doesn't have the TV coverage, Advertising or Heros that kids tend to see (think Freestyle Motocross or just Motocross, skateboards, snowboard and so on).

I live near a local lake in Denver and on any given weekend there are maybe a couple of kids out sailing other than with the local clubs which do a good job it seems.
When I drive by the moto track there are ALOT of kids out riding And the shate parks are stupid packed with kids.

The skating could be a money thing the parks are free and a board is cheep but dirt bikes are in the same leauge as sailing.


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

TrueBlue said:


> The impressionistic painting sailhog illustrated depicting sailing as an old geezer's club, may be his localized and narrowly focused vision.


If it is, it's localized and narrowly focused here, too. For example: There are nearly 200 full members and another hundred-plus other types of members in our sail club. My wife and I, both in our mid-50's, are at the younger end of the club's age spectrum.

Jim


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

Valiente said:


> One of the reasons we are going cruising for five years is because we deliberately want to keep our son away from our own culture during his formative years,


That is so incredibly sad .



Valiente said:


> because we have real reservations about the values of our culture,


And this is in _Canada_, which, by all accounts, is less a social wasteland than the U.S.A.



Valiente said:


> and about the way in which parents have ceded the responsibility of raising their children to the schools, television, toys designed to market other toys, and the sort of viciousness that thinks having a 9-year-old girl wear make-up, a belly-baring shirt and the word "*****" on the seat of her pants is "cute".


Hear, hear!

I am reminded of an incident a few years ago and a story from a teacher I know. The incident was two children playing on an escalator with their mother standing right there. This happened to be at Christmas-time. Finally, in their play, they bumped into me. I gave 'em "The Look." Stopped 'em dead in their tracks. Did their mother apologize? Hell no. "Grinch!," she said. I just turned away, it being the season and all. But what I should have done was read her the riot act. To include the prediction that if one of her little out-of-control darlings injured themselves on that escalator, she'd probably be looking to sue the store.

The teacher... A good teacher, if I'm any judge of character, who was just barely able to keep his job. "Why," you ask, "if he'd a good teacher?" Well, problem is, he tended to grade honestly--based on reality. None of this "feel good" crap for him. It seems the school regularly received demands from parents that the school force him to give their failing children good grades, despite the fact they hadn't earned them. This is in _private_ schools, mind you. So the rot isn't just in the public schools, tho I suspect the rot is much worse there.



Valiente said:


> Better to be on a boat, seeing how the rest of the world lives, while there is still a rest of the world to visit, and from which to learn.


Probably so.

Whatever you do: If the Canadian public school system is anything like what the public school systems in the U.S. have become: Keep the child out of it as long as possible. What these institutions have become can't be described in polite company.

Jim


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## Waterrat (Sep 8, 2007)

I have taught in one form or another in wellover 30 schools and it does depend on the schools but for the most part they are all horrible. It is tuff to help someone become a learner when you have 6 classes and 35 kids in each class. No matter how much time you spend planning, grading, and teaching you will never be half as effective as we should be. I have taught in schools where 70% of the freshmen were failing every single class. I had to teach them biology according to the No Child Left Behind Standards. This is when 95% of my students never learned basic life sciences and could have learned something of value to them if I could have taught to their level. We tell our kids to learn what we tell them they need to know instead of teaching them how to learn and enjoy learning. Our schools teach a thin veneer of informtion and don't give any depth. Just my observations.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Is this why we all love to sail? To get away from what we consider a dying society? I am really saddened by that thought. It may be true. My children love the boat, and are sailing more and more (7&8 y/o). I have always viewed it as my job to give them the best experience possible. Filling in where teaching falls short, providing the foundations of morality, decency and kindness (with strength), exposing them to nature, music, art and science first hand. And I am trying to teach them that our ultimate tool against consumerism and materialism is our ability to say NO. Even in the fast-paced consumer oriented world we live in, you don't have to listen to all the noise in the world. Maybe this is the real value of sailing, hearing the purest of sounds and being purified and fortified by them. Whoa. Sorry, but you hit a real chord with me there.


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## AjariBonten (Sep 7, 2007)

Hey Rat, tell us how you _really_ feel 

I totally agree. Generalizations; but true more often than not. I administer adult education/work programs, and you would not believe (or maybe you would) the number of adults carrying high school diplomas who read & write at a 3rd or 4th grade level. Then we wonder why they're on public assistance (welfare).

And no, it's not all the school's fault. There's plenty to go around: Parents, Media, School Bureaucracy, Students themselves, A Generally Lazy populace, declining work ethic, declining ethics in general, it goes on and on.

Don't Worry, Be Happy, there's always television!

Bardo, very eloquent. If all parents could have the same philosophy there might be more hope....


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

San Francisco is still doing pretty good as far as the interest in sailing. People come down to the beach to watch the weekend races during the summer. Its cold and windy, but everyone is smiling.


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## christyleigh (Dec 17, 2001)

... And then there are some oddballs who didn't grow up on the coast of anything, whose parents had nothing to do with sailing, and never even met anyone who ever sailed, who tried to become a sailor anyway. Way back as a kid in central Mass my parents used to take me for an occasional canoe ride and in the back of my fathers Outdoor Life's or Field and Stream's there were ads for 'Sail Kits' by Old Town Canoe. Well..... 20 years later or about 30 years ago I did a crude re-furbish of my fathers failing 14' wood & canvas canoe. After a couple years of playing with that I longed for something else, called Old Town Canoe up in Maine and then took a drive up there and bought a 'sail kit'. The basics of how a sail boat works was spelled out to me in grammer school science books waaayyy back when so I slapped it together, strapped it onto the car roof, headed down to a local pond, and tacked off into the wind........... Now all the Yacht Club programs or whatever are great and I'm not putting them down but I think if someone is going to become a sailor he or she will whether it is spoon fed to them or not.


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

If TB hadn't posted pictures of young people sailing, I would have just assumed he was lying. We all know he's a whoremonger and dope fiend, so why not a liar too? But the pictures tell the story, so I stand corrected.

Tommy, HHI is an odd place, and after a year I still haven't figured it out. In the past it's been a big retirement destination, but it's been in a process changing. Lots of young families are moving here from across the country. I'm 41, and we've met quite a few people our age, and it seems that these are the people who can't seem to live life away from the tv. Lots of sculpted facial hair, tatoos -- and they actually play video games. Gotta have the soul patch and tattoos so people don't forget yer a Playstation-playin' rebel!

The race I was in was sponsored by the South Carolina Yacht Club, which his based in Windmill Harbor. It's an unbelieveable facility, with a lock system and a gorgeous club house. However, the overwhelming majority of members don't sail. It's more of a supper club than a sailing club. It's also got a very peculiar Southern thing going on. Everyone comes dressed to the nines, while the sailing folk look like they just stepped off a boat after a long sail, which is as it should be. There are just very few of them, and their numbers are dwindling -- at least around here.

Stan, when you were here, did you see Windmill Harbour? I know you and your wife were at the Yacht Basin, which is definitely nice. Windmill Harbor, however, is where you'll see a great variety of sailboats...


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Giulietta said:


> Actually Hog, in my Country its the opposite, more people sailing now then ever.
> 
> The sailing club where my son races has a waiting list of at least 30 kids.
> 
> ...


Same thing down here. Trying to get across Sydney Harbour on a Saturday afternoon is one perilous occupation. Everything from the latest hi-tech screamers in both keelers and skiffs to a fleet of replica 18' skiffs and kids on lasers and opti like dinghys.

Yes, there are a lot more stinkers out there but the sailing fleets are alive and kicking.


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

TDW,
I don't know if you noticed, but Alex didn't post any pictures to back up his claims. Therefore I think we should just assume he was lying.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

sailhog said:


> We all know he's a whoremonger and dope fiend...


You 'say' that like it's a bad thing?


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

> If TB hadn't posted pictures of young people sailing, I would have just assumed he was lying. We all know he's a whoremonger and dope fiend, so why not a liar too? But the pictures tell the story, so I stand corrected.


sh, when you allowed your wife to drive up here with that kilo of gold, you said you wouldn't tell . . . who's the liar?


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

TrueBlue said:


> ...when your wife to drove up here...


So you're admitting to being a whoremonger! Capnhand seems to think this is a good thing. Well... I'd love to stay here and chit-chat with you two perverts, but I'm late for church...


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

sailhog said:


> So I'm admitting that I am in fact the whoremonger! But, I'm late for church...


Hope you sit in your own pew sh.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

sailhog said:


> So you're admitting to being a whoremonger! Capnhand seems to think this is a good thing. Well... I'd love to stay here and chit-chat with you two perverts, but I'm late for church...


cough splutter...late for......and why the sea is boiling hot and whether pigs have wings.

church indeed.

now what was that about a kilo of gold ???


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## bobmcgov (Jul 19, 2007)

If I might suggest another reason sailing is out of favor in the US? Risk. Or the perception of risk, which is the real issue. Sailing is lumped among "things that could kill my child." There is a powerful reluctance to expose kids to anything that might include danger -- we're the most protective, paranoid, litigious bunch of people anywhere.

Our parents would usher us outside and not see us for eight hours at a time. We rode our bikes a couple miles to play pickup baseball, or catch frogs at the creek, or climb trees. Our parents had a vague idea where we were and with whom, but it was understood that a generally benevolent community lookout would be kept on our behalf, and oddly enough I never did get axe murdered.

But I cannot imagine my sister employing that same level of hands-off parenting. They are the new model of adult, the so-called "helicopter parents," ever hovering just over the kids' shoulders. All activities must be structured, overseen by adults, and show quantifiable outcomes (pref. with awards given.) Schoolwork is micromanaged, so Junior can get into the best colleges. Playdates are arranged with military precision. Children are escorted from one Activity Module to another in heavily fortified cars with the sort of blanketing security that the Secret Service can only dream of.

I'd be more charitable toward these folks if I truly believed it was the child's welfare that drives their overbearing need to control every aspect of their kid's childhood. But cynically, I think they are mostly concerned with _being perfect parents in the eyes of other people._ "Sheila's daughter fell out of a tree, she never won a ribbon in dance competition ... AND she's going to State College. How her parents failed her!"

Proof of this thesis is the real damage parents do in attempting to avoid perceived danger. Which brings us to sailing. Sailing is an activity where you sometimes come in second to uncontrolled forces, like the weather. You could drown. You could be killed by drunken powerboaters. It's unstructured and a bit freeform. It doesn't obviously fit in a world of controlled environments, tight schedules, and point-to-point transportation.

From age 10 onwards I went out on boats:Sunfish, daysailors, the Classic Moth, cats, then some hardcore windsurfing. We rarely went more than a mile from home, but we were often out of sight of our parents, and no doubt they worried.

But they had the grace to let us go, let us make our own mistakes and discoveries, to fail and learn and succeed on terms we negotiated ourselves. It must have taken one hell of alot of courage to watch a twelve-year old set of on a solo hike for four days with no hope of communications. I'm desperately glad they let me go.

I don't know if this bunch of American parents have that courage. And so activities like sailing get crossed out. (Which is funny, because they'll allow BMX or skateboarding or motorscooters, and they'll drive 12k miles a year with kids in the car....)

If you haven't already, I urge everyone here to read Arthur Ransome's _Swallows and Amazons._ Ask yourself: how many parents today would allow their kids that sort of adventure?


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## canatc1 (Nov 6, 2007)

*Risk*

I hate to say it but that risk factor prevails in every age group. We have been inundated with warnings and dire predictions to the point that people in general are afraid of their own shadow. I'm 70 and my wife will not go sailing on anything bigger than the local lake. She,s just sure I'm going to die if I go out on the blue water. I feel like I want the freedom to sail with no boundaries but not necessarily alone but I truly feel no fear of water no matter what size it is. Now let me follow that up by saying I have been on the one way or another since I was 6 years old, I use a PFD and a safety line so if I fall over I'll not lose my ride. So what else can I do?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Get a more seaworthy wife.


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

bobmcgov tells it true. We used to teach our kids to swim so they could go swimming. Swimming where we didn't have to watch their every move, or even be there to watch over them. Now we teach them to swim, only in an Olympic sized pool so they can join the swim team and get a college scholarship! And you don't see those kids out jumping off the RR trestle bridge into the river; they're at swim practise in an indoor pool on a hot summer day. Cruel and unusual punishment I call it.

I don't think the risk is all of it, although there's enough risk adversity to go around. Golf and skiing used to be the rich kids sports around here. Now pretty much all the kids can get involved for a much more reasonable rate too. I think for sailing to grow in popularity it is necessary for parents, with an interest, to form clubs with like minded parents and beg, borrow, rent , or steal boats to get their kids into for fun and instruction. Lake access can be a hurdle as well. For those clubs to survive and grow it is essential to recruit new parents and kids each year. An almost essential ingredient is older parents whose kids are grown and gone who are still willing to participate. this gives the program continuity and history, and helps with the inevitable waxing and waning of interests.

And if you're not taking your kids or other kids sailing, who is?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

canatc1 said:


> I hate to say it but that risk factor prevails in every age group. We have been inundated with warnings and dire predictions to the point that people in general are afraid of their own shadow. I'm 70 and my wife will not go sailing on anything bigger than the local lake. She,s just sure I'm going to die if I go out on the blue water. I feel like I want the freedom to sail with no boundaries but not necessarily alone but I truly feel no fear of water no matter what size it is. Now let me follow that up by saying I have been on the one way or another since I was 6 years old, I use a PFD and a safety line so if I fall over I'll not lose my ride. So what else can I do?


Sitting in that La-Z-Boy at home will kill you sooner than sailing will.


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## bobmcgov (Jul 19, 2007)

BTW, I was reminded of a quotation from Swallows and Amazons that sums up the difference in attitude.

The four kids, aged twelve down to seven, have to apply to their father (a British Navy man away overseas) before they may set off on their adventure. His reply, by telegram: "BETTER DROWNED THAN DUFFERS IF NOT DUFFERS WON'T DROWN."

Can. You. Imagine.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

SEMIJim said:


> That is so incredibly sad .
> 
> And this is in _Canada_, which, by all accounts, is less a social wasteland than the U.S.A.


It's not sad for us. The general shallowness and (in our opinion) missed opportunities and wrongheaded priorities of our society in regards to youth have given our lives great focus and purpose. We want to avail ourselves of the opportunity to travel while our child is still a child, for him, _and _for us. Normally, like most people, we would have waited until retirement to mess about in boats. But by having a concrete goal, we can see every day a measure of progress toward achieving it.

As for Canada, the accounts are correct. It is less of a social wasteland (from what I've seen of the States) due to a smaller range of economic classes (there is less mega-wealth and less crushing poverty in Canada) and to certain structural differences in education and health care. But we live in a large city (even by American standards), and it's a wealthy one in many ways. We are subject to the same consumerist messages here, but at a greater intensity due to the concentration of media. Even restricting my child's television to public/educational TV received via antenna (no cable here!), he has had quite a bit of "manufacted desire" via other media, other kids weaned on the tit of cable TV and marketing aimed at children, and the simple osmosis of being a kid in the message-heavy, content-light 21 century.

Yeah, we need to get out.


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

Valiente said:


> It's not sad for us.


No, but it _is_ a sad commentary on the state of society.



Valiente said:


> Yeah, we need to get out.


Yeah, before something like this happens to _your_ kid: Student Gets Detention for Hugging 

Jim


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

The more I read, the more I see why I love the poor little small insignificant ugly country, the joke of many here, the poor economy like Luisiana State country where I hail from.....yes I do....


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

While I do agree with the main thread here, I must stand up for my children-they fuss at me to take them out to do things. We go canoeing, camping, sailing, hunting, target shooting, and sometimes we just ride around in the Blue Ridge Mountains in my truck talking. When I get home from work I actively engage them in conversations about their day, the news, plans, etc., and sometimes they even answer me. My oldest boy needs to be knocked in the head with a hammer, but my youngest is all for anything we can do outside, and turning into a pretty damned good sailor with only one season behind him. Nothing against other parents, but if you put in the effort and time, the rewards are priceless. I have 2 sons who are growing into good men who will stand the course for kith, kin, and country. Am I bregging? Yes. Am I proud of myself? No, as I've let too many things get by me. Am I proud of them? You bet your ass I am! My kids are my reward for getting my act together. The best part is that they keep me active (and in pain) when all I want to do is turn on the TV and the computer and call it a day, playing the part of the tired old man.

Nebo


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

My last post was made after reading only a few of the posts, and I really feel a need to add to it. 

The death of the American culture was spawned by two actions:


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Nebo

good poster, and good father..be patient..one day when you start xxxyour pants and trembling from parkinson, they will appreciate what you did for them.....


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## bobmcgov (Jul 19, 2007)

*More long rantings*

Okay, so kids have a tough entree to sailing in many areas. My cousin's younger son, who get precious little attention, showed an avid interest in sailing this past summer. We're talking about a place with multiple lakes and immediate family owning multiple cottages on them; it's where I learned to sail. In my youth, there was always a boat to borrow, and other kids to sail with. *Brian couldn't get a ride.* His uncle's 17' daysailor (which I crewed on many a happy day) sits rotting in the weeds in a nearby field; Brian got yelled at for trying to clean the leaves out of it and make it sailable. Not his. Too dangerous. Yadda yadda.

I was nearly pissed off enough to drop work and fly 2000 miles & drag his ass out on any boat we could steal. The kid is showing an interest -- won't anybody help that along?

Do you think, too, that sailing is its own worst enemy sometimes? It has, and seems to enjoy, a reputation as a sport of Bluebloods. Perhaps deservedly so -- read the names at the US Nationals: Haddington-Smythe; Braithwhite; Darlington. And so on, all veddy upper crust. It's exactly like classical music or opera. Sailing craves to maintain its elevated status and cultural exclusivity -- then wonders why everyone at the show is a rich white person over seventy. You can have a precious plaything, a bonbon for wealthy retirees ... or you can have a robust sport that belongs to everyone.

It's a perception not helped by big-money ocean racing, such as its most visible spectacle, the America's Cup. Seems like a bunch a rich assholes with too much money -- and too many lawyers -- at their disposal. If they'd quit their aristocratic pissing contests and sail like funhogs, the sport would benefit thereby. (That's why I love the Aussie 18ers; never let money get in the way of raw sensation. Sail like it hurts not to!) If I were Sir Guy of _The Magic Christian_, I'd sponsor a boat good enuf to win the AC. The day after the race, we'd announce the rules for the next challenge series: Stock Catalina 22s, Dacron sails only, maximum spending limit of $40,000, see you *in one year.* Let's go sailing.

Maybe then it would become cool to kids and blue-collar citizens. I hang out on the TrailerSailor board and lurk at SailingAnarchy -- which feature more frugal and younger demographics, respectively. So let it be known! There are young, athletic people who love to go fast and don't give a rat's sphincter about 'cult-cha and breeding, dahling.' And there's a gang of vaguely overweight, sunburned ******** who fell into some crazy love affair with a debutante named Sailing, and they're going to Bondo their old boats and scrounge hardware and putter around their little lakes or weedy bayous in whatever ancient wreck they can afford. Because they are in love. And love is blind.

It's hard to argue sailing is too expensive: I'm poor, but I got *two* perfectly fabulous sailboats. People are dropping thousands on lift tickets, Harleys, Jet Skis and snowmobiles. They can afford $400 for a used Sunfish, or $2350 for a San Juan 21. The world is full of used sailboats. Money isn't keeping people from sailing. The _perception_ that it's expensive might be.

This is an important and energizing topic. Thanks, Sailhog.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Well said bob..  Are you a member of the RYC???


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## AjariBonten (Sep 7, 2007)

We seem to have two separate, and equally important discussions going on here.

1} The decline and fall of Western Civilization

2} The hows and whys of expanding a love of sailing into the youth of today.

The first probably deserves it's own thread.

The second probably deserves it's own forum! As a community, we really should take responsibility for the promotion of sailing for sailing's sake. The question is, what can one person do?

Like so many of you have suggested in this thread; we can start with one or two yung'uns. Our own or someone else's; depending upon our circumstances. On this count I really have to take my hat off to Giu!, a fine job he is doing.

But beyond that, what group efforts can be achieved? I'm not offering all of the answers; but I'm hoping to clarify the question.

There have been many astute observations; Bob, Val, Nebo, etc.

Just a few thoughts,
Fred


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

Owning a boat could be a lot less expensive if you could magically get rid of all of the boats that are just rotting away in slips and taking up valuable space. On HHI at least, a good number of these boats have been abandoned and are now for sale by the marina and dock owners who hope to recoup some of their lost slip rent. Unfortunately a boat isn't like, say, an automobile which is routinely stripped of its useful parts and actually SOLD as scrap at the end of its service life. A boat actually costs a great deal of money to dispose of. A friend of mine recently "bought" a J boat for its mast and boom. In exchange for the spars, he agreed to chainsaw it into disposable pieces. It took nearly a full day of incredibly hard work.


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## bobmcgov (Jul 19, 2007)

sailingdog said:


> Well said bob..  Are you a member of the RYC???


Nah ... they rejected my application. Something about a dress code. And my boat's too yellow.


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Good post, Bob.
Coupled with what you experienced, I am seeing lakefront property going to year-round occupation. With that the age of the buyers is going up and the price of admission as well. The seasonal cottages run amok with kids is disappearing for a more gray look. And the lake is empty. Time was, these older people's kids had a fleet of snipes or something and all the kids learned to sail. Most all the boats are gone now, with the exception of the odd grand-child on a Sunfish. Your emotions are in the right place though. I'll say it again; if you and I are not taking that kid across the street, or hanging at the marina, sailing-who is?


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

bobmcgov said:


> Something about a dress code.


Sorry.....     you don't have nothing against me do you???



















Just joking...I can also dress "real sailor clothes" and not shave....ehehehe....


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

We live in a small (albeit private) community on the Chesapeake. We have dozens of sunfish, lasers, Hobies, Valients, and others pulled up into the dune grass. I see maybe 10% of them used during the season. I am thinking of setting up a semi-weekly race during the summer. After work Wednesday and on Saturday like the bog boys do. Get the kids and parents in the neighborhood back out on their boats. Maybe do a sailing clinic for kids, including some from the surrounding areas that are less accessible to the water. This could be a small start to re-vitalizing the sport and helping kids and parents re-connect.


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

That's the ticket, Bardo. The kids'll be the easy part-finding someone with the same commitment as you, to keep it going, will be the tough part.


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

Alex,
Why do you keep your spinnaker pole in your trousers? I have clamps on my stanchions on the foredeck which secure it in place. I don't mean to tell you what to do, but you should try it. Very handy.


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

Whoaaa! That's not natural... You should be in the "movies," if you know what I mean...


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

Think you have a secret admirer Giu.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

That's very sick....I'm married with wife and kids...

Hog..my dog however has very little standards, and is single....might want to check with him...(G)


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

Giu,
Your dog sounds very nice... VERY nice, if you know what I mean. Perhaps you could send me her email address so that she and I can communiate without being harrassed by law enforcement. I also need to make sure this isn't part of some sting operation by Dateline NBC. Once I am sure of this, I will show up at your dog's house with beer and condoms.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Hawg...why go all the way to portugal when there's a REAL sailingdog close at hand??? Hmmm??? (g)


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

Cam,
Sailingdog got very upset, and I mean VERY upset, when he caught me with my snout under his tail. Frankly, I feel like I'm looking for love in all the wrong places. Cam, you wouldn't have any pets? A Guinea pig, maybe a family turtle?


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

sailhog said:


> Giu,
> Your dog sounds very nice... VERY nice, if you know what I mean. Perhaps you could send me her email address so that she and I can communiate without being harrassed by law enforcement. I also need to make sure this isn't part of some sting operation by Dateline NBC. Once I am sure of this, I will show up at your dog's house with beer and condoms.


Hog....(here's a tough one)....

My dog is a HE...I'm sure you won't have any problems with that....he however remarks he is "active", not passive....  

Its a gentleman after all...and true Old English Sheepdog










HEre bellow with the last US lover he had....didn't last long....sorry










But please...do try your luck....


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

sailhog said:


> Cam,
> Sailingdog got very upset, and I mean VERY upset, when he caught me with my snout under his tail. Frankly, I feel like I'm looking for love in all the wrong places. Cam, you wouldn't have any pets? A Guinea pig, maybe a family turtle?


Hi there cutey !!



Come on over here my fine porcine friend.


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

You'd think there's enough hair on that dog to make a decent tarpauline for a Portagee's balding binnacle, wouldn't you? Giu would look like a cross between Albert Einstein and Phil Spector.


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

Looks like somebody laced the Wombat's drink with that date-rape drug... EASY pickin's!

Alex's dog looks very... metro-sexual...


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Where's my bottle of Psychlorox???


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

http://s233.photobucket.com/albums/ee30/sailhog/sailing/?action=view&current=2003_0223Family0016.jpg

I'm trying to post a pic of my family... Don't know if it will work...


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

How do you get it to post the photo instead of just the link?


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Hog

Quote my post, copy and paste the links


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Hog


Finally I connect the face with the man...you have a very good looking family!! Pretty girls and extremely beautifull wife, Congratulations.

You look like a nice guy...I would immediately relate your face with you..

Cool, thanks.

(leave my dog alone, you won'r need him)


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

SH-

I can see the family resemblance...especially in the little girl on the left in the first photo... she's got the hog snout down pat.  cute kids... thank god they take after your missus.


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

Giu,
If it's all right with you, I'd like to take your dog out to dinner. I'll have him back by midnight... Thanks for the kind words. You seem to be living the dream, with a gorgeous wife and beautiful children. Congratulations to you, Captain... Now, I'm going to try this again... Please be patient with me if I screw it up...

http://s233.photobucket.com/albums/ee30/sailhog/sailing/?action=view&current=2003_0223Family0016.jpg


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## denby (Feb 21, 2007)

This thread has degraded beyond believe. Hog your one sick puppy. Interesting but sick.

Dennis


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Hog

I like the family..... I like the boat...but the "crochet gayish macramé" wheel...BWAAHAHAHAHAHAHA

That was hilarious!!!!


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

Giulietta said:


> Hog
> 
> I like the family..... I like the boat...but the "crochet gayish macramé" wheel...BWAAHAHAHAHAHAHA
> 
> That was hilarious!!!!


I've "been" with a lot of sailors on that boat. Without a little gayish adornment, I felt like a bit of a fraud... so a little macrame on the wheel, a splash of pastel latex over the teak and holly below...


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

sailhog - You deceptive swine. 

Nice photos, but they have left me totally confused. From your forum persona, who would have thought you'd have such a lovely wife and daughters?


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

TrueBlue said:


> sailhog - You deceptive swine.
> 
> From your forum persona, who would have thought you'd have such a lovely wife and daughters?


That's exactly what I thought....

But again...look at me...I deceive too...people here think I am bald hairy and small...

I envisoned SH as a fat lard bastard, with hair all over his face, spending the day listening to Alan Parsons Project in his humid basemant...


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

That's a very funny, but disturbing image.


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

You guys seem to know how to solicit forgiveness... when I think back to all of the horrible abuse I've received from everyone on this forum, all of the slanderous, hideous, libelous, treacherous, venal, insidious, vulgar, disgusting lies and distortions said about me... and then you say three or four nice words about my babies and my wife, and you know you'll be forgiven. And alas you are... Nice work, gentlemen!

One question: I'm still not clear on posting the pics. Alex, what do you mean by "quote my post"?


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## cockeyedbob (Dec 6, 2006)

seems photo postin' could be a bit easier ... 

ya done swell hog!


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

Bob, how are ya? Everybody's hitting on my wife, and now I'm feeling a little insecure.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

sailhog, Since Alex isn't responding, I'll try to help.
The image displayed in your photobucket album will have a box with URL information - looks like this:

*Share URL - *Email & IM 
*Direct Link - *Layout Pages 
*HTML Code - *Websites & Blogs 
*IMG Code - *Forums & Bulletin Boards

Highlight & Copy the URL from the second line labeled: *Direct Link*

In SailNet's *Reply to Thread *editing screen (displayed after hitting Post Reply), click on that little yellow icon in the menu bar - 







. When the *Explorer User Prompt* window opens, paste the URL in the address box, click OK and the photo should appear.


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

Got it, TB. Thanks.


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## cockeyedbob (Dec 6, 2006)

sailhog said:


> Bob, how are ya? Everybody's hitting on my wife, and now I'm feeling a little insecure.


Serves ya right ... nice thing 'bout Giu's dog, ya ain't gotta buy the fur coat to get a little.


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## cockeyedbob (Dec 6, 2006)

Thank you TrueBlue! Bob loves Betty Crocker directions. 
Reckon I'll shuffle on over to Photochuckit while waitin' for the frost to burn off ...


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)




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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)




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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

Holy smokes! You got to try this, Bob!


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

Your babies are way cute sailhog.

(I think we created a photo-posting monster)


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## cockeyedbob (Dec 6, 2006)

Yes, yes, Bob wants ta try dat!

Now, regarding file size, number of pixels, etc ... kin ol' Bob just point'n'shoot'n'bucket'n'post or is he gonna have to reduce file size ... been workin' on an avatar and have the this x that ok but file size greater than posting directions specify ... savvy?

oops, off thread ... sorry ... mea culpa ...


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

Bob, I didn't have to reduce file size. I wanna see that boat of yours...

TB,
Way too cute. Nice now. Won't be so nice when the boys come snooping around. I was all about beer and boners way back when.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

Bob, Starting from the Photobucket Welcome screen, click on: *Upload photos and videos* to get to your album. At the upper right hand corner of the UPLOAD box, you should find this line:

*max image size: 800 x 600 (options) *

After you have entered the URL in the Browse window, Click on *options* and you'll find a list of different photo sizes, photobucket can automatically resize for you. Select Avatar and follow the directions.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

I think Fred will appreciate this thread,,,I will allow him a sneek preview...

OK SH??


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## cockeyedbob (Dec 6, 2006)

hog ... si, no changes to file size ... thanks Captain!


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

Giu,
I'll post some photos of my 8-year-old at the wheel... She's seen photos and videos of Fred at the helm, and she really enjoys them. It gets her attention when she sees other kids doing the things she loves.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Cool I'll try and find photos of Fred on the wheel...lately I have more videos of him than photos...

let me dig for a few you can show her..OK?

He's on "net punishment" as you know..long story, but I will get him to send a mesage to your daughters, maybe they can talk about baost and stuff..

I am sure cam or CD would sanction a forum just for hte 2 kids where other kids could talk. No adults allowed to post (except respective parents), and admission would have to be controlled by Cam or CD to make sure "predators" don't go there and post, see what I mean?


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

I'd contribute my kid's photos, but unlike many of the other sailing Dad's on the forum, the pictures would have to be from a few years ago to be close in age to Giu and sailhog's kids.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

TB...no problem man...although big now they were sailing kids too, wern't they...so they're ok...post them...


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

Can you upload video files to photobucket?


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

yep...I do mines on youtube..seems to be faster uploading and works all the time


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)




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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

just practicing


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

a little more practice


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

SH-

Practice all you want as long as they're not photos of you.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

Priceless costumes - a witch and her black cat . . . who seems to have gotten onto her Halloween candy, judging by the greenish-orange tounge (g).


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

TrueBlue said:


> Priceless costumes - a witch and her black cat . . . who seems to have gotten onto her Halloween candy, judging by the greenish-orange tounge (g).


You can almost smell her bad breath in that picture...


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Okay, you are irking me now. I can't get to my pics of the kids until I get home. Then I will make you pay! I have a couple of older shots which I will inflict on you as a taste of whats to come....









Not sailing, but those are at home.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Hog...for your girls to see...

Well..you know this guy here...



















He has style I give him that...










and this one too...(this one will be a sailor too I hope, he can't see arope and not pull it... ehehehe)


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

Alex,
My eight-year-old daughter is very impressed by these pictures. She's going to type a message all by herself. Here it is:

hi my namme is evey. I like to sail. Fred, your boat is really nice. When you come to america we will sail. Or I will go to Portugal. Until then we will be pen pals.
bye-bye,
Evey


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## tenuki (Feb 11, 2007)

Seattle youth racing/sailing seems alive and well.

And I sail because it provides instant gratification and is part of my culture. 

You guys are a bunch of whining old men.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

> You guys are a bunch of whining old men.


Someone's got to teach you young'uns the ropes. . . 'scuse me while I change my colostomy bag.


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## tenuki (Feb 11, 2007)

ok, I read the end of the thread and it turned happy, what's with that? I was talking about the beginning of the thread with all the 'end of culture and sailing' weirdness.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

tenuki, 
I've been trying to figure out sailhog for a while now. You've noticed how he is constantly disarming us with his metaphors and analgous associations to apocalyptic episodes. I have come to the conclusion, he's always one notch ahead of us. It's a game with him for SailNet dominance . . . a genius he is.


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

TrueBlue said:


> You've noticed how he is constantly disarming us with his metaphors and analgous associations to apocalyptic episodes.


It's the back pain medication talking... the Doans Pills mixed with Budweiser. Together they make LSD.

TB, did you use YouTube or Photobucket to upload your videos?


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

One half-second after I threw my hat over the side and shouted "Man overboard!"


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Kid really looks like you....strong genes...good man...

The other one pulls after mum...does not have the big ass you do


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

A COB drill with your hat? It appears to be either a Captain's briiliance or sheer madness. What happened five seconds later - hugs and smiles I hope?


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Giulietta said:


> Kid really looks like you....strong genes...good man...
> 
> The other one pulls after mum...does not have the big ass you do


The other one's my nephew...so you've have to look at the ass of my wife's brother, the sharpshooting cop! Seriously, he can defuse bombs...


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

TrueBlue said:


> A COB drill with your hat? It appears to be either a Captain's briiliance or sheer madness. What happened five seconds later - hugs and smiles I hope?


Naturally, after he did a perfect "quickstop". I can't wait until he's four feet tall and can see the water from the helm.


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## tenuki (Feb 11, 2007)

what's in the big yellow buckets Valiente?


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Non-sailor lunches. People _say _they can just make it to the rail, but the topsides can suffer.

Actually, in the spring, I lower the beer, white wine and pop into the lake off the stern and it gets colder quicker than in the fridge.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

sailhog said:


> It's the back pain medication talking... the Doans Pills mixed with Budweiser. Together they make LSD.
> 
> TB, did you use YouTube or Photobucket to upload your videos?


Sorry sh, must have missed your question last night - (mucho vino blanco). I've only used YouTube and have only posted three total - so, I may not be the best guy to ask.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

While walking my dog, I struck up a conversation with a new granddad seeing his baby son for the first time; he is a power boater, I a sailor. I was talking about how much fuel power boats use and their relative speed. His response was to say - "I don't know if you have noticed it, but most power boaters are going about 10 to 12 knots these irrelevant to how fast the boat can go."

In fact, I had noticed slower power boaters and I knew it was to conserve expensive fuel. My reply was that if boaters are going to go sail boat speeds almost, they might as well get a sailboat, or a motor sailor.

I think its safe to say that sailboats are going to make a come back as cheapies like me don't want to shell out big bucks for fuel.


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## AjariBonten (Sep 7, 2007)

Now, THAT scares me........................


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Great photo, Val! He's got that, "don't let me screw this up" look we get better at hiding as we age. Of course, the anxiety within remains the same no matter the age! Face it, kids are cooler than boats. Kids and boats, priceless!


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

He's a cool kid, alright. But when I ask him to contribute to the cruising kitty, I get this reaction:


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Neat schooner in the background. Know anything about her?


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

Valiente,
You guys look like you have a lot of fun on the water... What is that off in the distance behind your son? Looks like a three-masted something-or-other...


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

That is the S/V Kajama, a 1930 "tall ship" used for booze cruises around Toronto in the summer, and an extremely familiar sight to us as it leaves and returns to Toronto Harbour right in front of our club. Despite the fact that the sails are 99% "for show, not go", and it is inevitably stuffed with gawking lubbers, we think she adds something to an evening's cruise around the Toronto Islands.

http://forms.cta-otc.gc.ca/CVIS/Ship_e.cfm?ShipID=821252

http://www.greatlakesschooner.com/html_contents_kajama.html

_Launched as the *Wilfried *in Rendsburg, Germany in 1930, the Kajama traded under sail for nearly 70 years. She was a familiar ship in ports from Northwest Spain, through western Europe, and as far north as Norway and Russia. In 1999, Kajama was delivered transatlantic by Great Lakes Schooner Company and restored to her original profile.

We are proud to offer this 164' three-masted gaff-rigged schooner, which can comfortably accommodate parties of up to 225 people. Your group can enjoy deliciously prepared meals in Kajama's spacious single dining room (a 1006 square foot, open, and airy venue that enjoys natural lighting and ventilation through massive skylights)._


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Val,
I guess he's resigned then to the prospect of having to work his passage! (g)


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

He doesn't know the half of it, and I hope to keep it that way until we are in international waters...


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## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

well, it looks like this is where we put our respective spawn, so here goes.

the boy, now 17, here he's on his way to pinning the kid and placing 5th in the state. (now weighs all of 127.85 lbs)










in a band, of course... they're biggest hit? "AAAAAAARRRRRRRGHHHHH, EWWWWWWWWWVHDJ"

thats all I can make out of it. 









and finally, the cuban and her 13 year old.


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

Jesus Christ. Which one's the thirteen-year-old?


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## JustinC25 (Sep 13, 2006)

I like this thread and agree with a lot of what is said. I’m 25 and bought my first sailboat almost two years ago. I never grew up around the water or boats; I just had the dream that it was something I wanted to get into. I’m the only one in my family that sails and none of my friends have been into sailing. I’m always trying to share sailing experiences with others to get more people involved. I love taking out my family (have 4 brothers) and friends; I just wish they were as enthusiastic as I am. The worst excuse I had a friend give me about not sailing was that he had some type of clan meeting in his World of Warcraft online game. He preferred to spend his day sitting at a computer killing virtual monsters with his virtual friends rather than spending a beautiful day sailing on the water! What is wrong with some of these people? I guess if that’s their thing, then be it. He has since given up that addiction and realized how much of a waste it was. I like my video games too, but that tends to be more of an off sailing season hobby of mine. 

Some people may say sailing is too expensive, but then others say it’s not. I tend to agree that it does not have to be that expensive. Yes, it can be costly, but if it is something you really want to do, I’m sure a lot of people could work to make it happen. I’m not rich, but I think I am fortunate for what I have. I’ve worked very hard to get where I am today and to make my dreams happen. There are lots of used sailboats that will cost money, but aren’t always as far out of reach as many initially believe. I do have to admit though; my boat has cost me more than I first thought, but not too much. It’s not cheap to own a boat, but a small day sailor is probably within many peoples’ reach. If you don’t want to buy a boat, then there are many crew opportunities and ways to get involved without buying your own. I live 75 miles from the bay and like zz2gta said, you will rarely ever find someone that sails other than at a marina or at a town near the water. Turns out zz2gta lives just a mile or two down the road from me, so there are at least 2 young sailors here in land locked Leesburg, VA. We are also two young people that have gone out and made our dreams of buying our own sailboats true. I’m sure if there was more interest, more young people would realize that this is an accessible sport that is so different compared to everything that is common out there today.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

My 15 ton, 40 foot boat costs approximately two-thirds the total expense I would have yearly with a $35,000 car when you consider depreciation, insurance, maintenance and fuel.

My yearly fuel bill is about $300-$400, my club membership is about $1,500. my summer dockage and winter storage is about $1,600, and I have to spend $35 per month at the club restaurant. My insurance for this boat is $1,400 a year.

Total: under $5,000 per year. I figure the yearly cost of a sedan is close to $8,000. 

Now, as I am currently equipping the boat, I am spending a fair bit on gear and services, but I consider that "home improvement".

Also note that if I lived in that nice new car, I would be considered homeless. If I lived on the middle-aged sailboat, I would be considered wealthy.

Funny world, isn't it?

(My 33 footer cost less than $3,000/year at the same club, so I imagine a 25-footer would be economical compared to that.)


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## tommyt (Sep 21, 2002)

OK,

I am moving back to Toronto and joining your club. My fuel bill is about the same, insurance about the same although it is high because of charter. Howeever, my summer dockage is double, my winter storage double, and I could easily drink my quota in the bar in a week. Hell, I will even bring a car for you to share when it rains.

Can I get free medical if I live aboard for the summer?


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

tommyt said:


> OK,
> 
> I am moving back to Toronto and joining your club. My fuel bill is about the same, insurance about the same although it is high because of charter. Howeever, my summer dockage is double, my winter storage double, and I could easily drink my quota in the bar in a week. Hell, I will even bring a car for you to share when it rains.
> 
> Can I get free medical if I live aboard for the summer?


That's crazy. My dockage is based on dock length, not boat length, and I have a 38 foot dock. The winter storage is based on deck square footage (beam x length) and includes the price of craning in and out. I noticed my bill went up about 50% going from a 33-foot to a 40-foot, sure, but the club membership is still the biggest ding.

And I have to tell you that my club is in the top five most expensive out of the 20 or so in this city. The club next door, Alexandra, has rubber cube docks, no restaurant, and a modest kitchen for the members. Here's their prices. Keep in mind they are essentially in the identical 90-seconds to the lake locale, right downtown:

_Full club membership entails the following fees:

CREWING MEMBER Dues $40.00 + Initiation Fee $0.00 + GST $2.80 = $42.80

ASSOCIATE MEMBER Dues $100.00 + Initation Fee $150.00 + GST $17.50 = $267.50

SENIOR MEMBER:

* Initiation Fee $1500.00
* Mooring Debenture $600.00 (Refundable*)
* Building Debenture $2000.00 (Refundable*)
* Annual Dues *$420.00*
* Summer Mooring *$1.00/sq. ft. (e.g. 10 ft. x 30 ft. boat = $300.00)*
* Winter Storage** *$1.20/sq. ft. (10 ft. x 30 ft. = $360.00)
*
*The debentures are refundable following notification in writing to the club of the member's decision to resign membership and will be redeemed in the order of the waiting list as each new senior member is accepted.

**Winter storage includes lifting out and launching on the days the club brings in a mobile crane.

A Cheque in the amount of $2054.40 ($1500.00 initiation fee + $420.00 membership dues + $134.40 GST) must accompany an application for senior membership, with the balance due within 30 days of the acceptance of the application.

After the first year costs will be annual membership dues, summer mooring and winter storage fees.

The Alexandra Yacht Club is a self-help club, which means that we do all our own maintenance, upkeep and repairs. All senior members must contribute a minimum of 16 work hours per calendar year.

For more membership information contact: Don Hood. _

As for the medical, sorry, no. But our drugs are a great deal cheaper!


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