# Old boat needs a NEW engine: suggestions needed!



## brava (Sep 25, 2008)

We've got a 1957 Cape Cod Marlin, a small day sailer (23' I believe). It's used on the Severn River and out into the Chesapeake Bay (once in a while on a "big" day...). Very local stuff.

When we got this boat it had the original 1 cylinder inboard gas engine, a 1957 PW27.

Shockingly, this engine, despite valiant interventions, has decided it is Done. 

So we need a replacement. I did contact Cape Cod and they suggested the Yanmar 1GM10 9hp or a Nanni 2.10.

Our priorities for the engine would be inboard in the existing compartment if possible, reliable and easy to maintain (and price, of course!). We're willing to compromise on noise and performance - this is a "maneuver to the dock and get us home once in a while when the wind dies" sort of engine.

Any and all suggestions and advice very much appreciated. Thanks!!!


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

How heavy was the original 1 cylinder engine?
One idea is a Beta 10 (2 cyl diesel) but it weighs over 180 pounds.
10 Beta Marine US Ltd. Distributors for Kubota based marine diesel engines and generators for sailboats, yachts and trawler boats.
I would suggest looking into an Atomic 4 but I'm pretty sure they weigh more then 300 pounds.
Another option would be to contact Don Moyer at Moyer Marine Inc. who specializes in Atomic 4 gas engines. Moyer Marine Atomic 4 Engine Rebuilding and Parts
He might consider having a look at your PW 27 engine and may be able to refurbish it. MMI is not that far from Annapolis.
You might get lucky and find an old engine on ebay but that is a long shot.
Good luck.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

The BetaMarine 10 HP is probably too large. It is a significantly larger an engine, being a two-cylinder engine.


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## brava (Sep 25, 2008)

I don't know how heavy it was -- it's still in the boat...
but if it weighs less than 150 lbs I'd be shocked.

Thanks for the recommendation. We have put a fair amount of work in the engine already so I'm a little reluctant to have anyone take another whack at it (at least that's what I promised myself when it died for the last time, billowing black smoke across the bay...), but it is worth a conversation at least!

Will follow up on both those ideas....


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

Anything diesel and the word SINGLE (1GM10)defines vibration


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## brava (Sep 25, 2008)

Well, first of all, it doesn't have to be diesel. Honestly, it just needs to run.
And our standards are pretty low (did I mention the engine was made in 1957?).
And we use it for little snippets of time here and there....

I'd be ok with some vibration if it were functional, fit in the engine compartment, and didn't cost a fortune...


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## scottyt (Jul 19, 2008)

cost a fortune i am rolling on the floor....

the cheapest thing would be a out board on a mount on the back, as a new marine engine will cost thousands..


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

Yes, even a 1 cylinder (1 lung?) gas inboard from 1957 probably weighs a bunch - they don't make 'em like they used to. Sounds like your old girl needs a ring and valve job if not a cylinder re-bore and who knows what else - if it can be saved at all. I recommended Don Moyer because you can actually speak to him on the phone, a rare form of customer service these days. 
Do you have any pictures of this old engine PW 27? Old engines like this should be easier to work on then a newer engine as the old ones were usually very simple designs.

It is a Palmer engine with the exposed fly wheel? 
There are a few old engine forums with info on the Palmer 27: Old Marine Engine: PW-27
Even the gang over at the Atomic 4 forum seem to enjoy discussions on this not so distant relative of the A4: Moyer Marine Atomic 4 Community - Home of the Afourians - Powered by vBulletin


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## omaho5 (Jun 5, 2008)

There is this boat yard in NH on Lake Winnipessauke. Fay's Boat yard. They have a slew of old engines, one "lungers" and up. Because they do much work on older boats, much older, you may want to call them.
Tel # 603 293 8000. Ask to speak wth Jeff, Wayne or Merrill.
They can at least give you some directon. Say Bill O told them to speak wth you.


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

It turns out that the Mystic Seaport in CT has a good working collection of Palmer motors: Palmer Bros. NR-2 (T-head)
I'm all out of ideas right now.


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## brava (Sep 25, 2008)

Thanks, all, for the suggestions. I'll contact the two local folks for starters and see if someone can assess the engine before officially giving up on it.
(no, no pictures. Yes, exposed flywheel. We've redone the exhaust system, rebuilt the magneto, and replaced the head gasket. No ring job...yet...)


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## LakeSuperiorGeezer (Oct 8, 2010)

The PW-27 Palmer engine is a Wisconsin Model AEH where Palmer supplied water cooled cylinder, head and a few other parts. If there are no cracks in the cylinder and head, should be able to salvage it. The black smoke is probably just a stuck float on the carburetor. Get a carburetor kit and rebuild it. You will at least need a float valve and seat as a minimum.
Old Marine Engine web site
For parts http://www.m-and-d.com/pdfs/Wisconsin/adh_aeh.pdf
Parts and specifications  AEH Engine Repair Specifications and parts


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## badsanta (Oct 16, 2006)

if you want it to just pull away from the dock. Pull out the old motor and use an electric trolling motor or a sculling oar.


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## LakeSuperiorGeezer (Oct 8, 2010)

*Carburetor Kits*



LakeSuperiorGeezer said:


> The black smoke is probably just a stuck float on the carburetor. Get a carburetor kit and rebuild it. You will at least need a float valve and seat as a minimum.


The carburetor is a 61 series Zenith. The cast iron carburetor is 61M2AE7 and the all brass one is a 61M4AE7. The brass does not corrode like the iron one does.

ebay has carbueretor kits. Search under
TOMCO Zenith Carb Rebuild Kit 5373 New Old Stock
also
Zenith 61 & 161 Series Tractor Carburetor Repair Kit (picture of parts shows a float valve, these carburetors were also used on many garden tractors)

The NAPA may not have the float valve as part of the kit so be careful
NAPA dealers under the part number 2-1565


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## LakeSuperiorGeezer (Oct 8, 2010)

Be careful to vent engine compartment because a sticky float valve will let gasoline run down the side of a carburetor. Also watch for cracked metal fuel lines from engine vibration and check rubber fuel hoses for leaks. A carburetor on a hot engine can also boil out gasoline and a fuel pump used on an engine with a carburetor can get a hole in the diaphragm and squirt gasoline out its bottom. (Or else into the crankcase causing bearing failure). If this engine has a manual starter I am sure you will notice the gasoline smell anyway.


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## LinekinBayCD (Oct 19, 2009)

Brava,

You should try and get hold of the specs of the engine you want to replace, weight, dimensions, HP, etc. We are all speculating here guessing at the specs that might be close to what you have. New engines are considerably smaller and lighter than the equivalent HP from years back. I repowered two years ago replacing a 1986 Westerbeke 46 with a new Westerbeke 55. Dispite the 9 HP increase the 55 is lighter by a fair amount and a tad smaller.

The extra HP dosent help when the water is like glass but it does help punch through when it is rough with the wind on your nose.


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## Siamese (May 9, 2007)

You're looking for reliability and low cost for getting away from the dock and for the occasional trip back home.

Are going to do the install yourself? Because just the installation of another engine will likely cost more than an outboard, not to mention the cost of the new inboard engine. 

All you need is a 6 to 10 horse engine. Anytime you have a problem with it you pluck it off its mount and take it to the repair facility of your choosing, as opposed to having to pay marina prices. 


You're not going to find an inboard that's as smooth as a 2 cylinder outboard. 

Even the most catastrophic malfunction of your engine will never cost you more than the cost of a used outboard. 

Outboards are reliable. Many also include a charging system.


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## brava (Sep 25, 2008)

Hi guys -- I will try and get more specific specs for you to pore over. I am neither the nautical nor the mechanical half of the boat-owning partnership (rather, the computer half, thus this information gathering falls to me), so I am aware that I'm being both vague and sort of naive in my questions.

But I do appreciate the help!

I have been informed that the final insult involved white smoke, not black smoke (black smoke we had, but that was ANOTHER problem, since resolved; we've had so many they all blur together in my head), so it is likely to be not the carburetor but perhaps the head gasket (which was replaced prior).

Certainly we would not install a replacement engine ourselves -- the Other Half is handier than I am, but not that handy.

And, yes, we are aware of the advantages (starting with cost) of an outboard. And we do want the ability to run for home in chop if need be, not just put away from the dock until we catch the wind (trust me, we know exactly how much, er, headway we can make with an oar  ).

We are just resisting what may seem to be the obvious solution because the boat is really a beauty, and neither one of us really wants to tack an outboard onto it...


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## jfurlong (Apr 16, 2010)

do you trailer, or keep the boat in the water? If in the water is it a slip or a mooring, and if a slip do you have shore power. If trailered or on a slip with power,hHave you considered an in-board electric?


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## LakeSuperiorGeezer (Oct 8, 2010)

*White Smoke = Cracks?*



brava said:


> I have been informed that the final insult involved white smoke, not black smoke


"White smoke" is really steam. This probably means corrosion and cracks in metal in combustion chamber, that is if you have a dry exhaust as I would think a wet exhaust would condense steam and you would not see it. Does the engine oil have a gray whitish color to it from oil emulsified with water? If the engine has indirect cooling, that is a heat exchanger, most likely it could be salvaged, but saltwater inside the engine means a dead engine as usually ten years is the limit before a raw saltwater cooled engine is all rusted up, cracked, scale and lots of cracks. Did I also say cracks in the metal? Optimistically it could be a head gasket.


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## LakeSuperiorGeezer (Oct 8, 2010)

The Palmer engine is 8 HP at 2800 rpm, 150 pounds with gear


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

Brava,

I am not familiar with the design of your boat, but some 
generalities: Removing 150 to 200 pounds of weight from
way down low and somewhat near the center of the boat
to way back and higher may have a negative effect on it's
sailing capabilities? Also, some loss of "ballast effect? Mounting
an outboard on the transom may be a challenge, possibly
requiring bracing. An outboard on the transom may require the
longest shaft available with the prop coming out of the
water still a possibility in a steep short chop. Suggest you 
stay with some kind of inboard as the boat was probably
designed with that in mind to start with.

Dabnis


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## FITZMAR (Jan 23, 2011)

Hi thay make a outboard motor for sailboats.Its a long shaft 9.9 HP made for that boat.


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## LakeSuperiorGeezer (Oct 8, 2010)

Lets not give up on the old Palmer yet. I have a few questions:

Does the spark plug have water on it or do the electrodes have any rust on them at all?

Does the engine have direct raw water cooling (no heat exchanger)?

Does the oil look gray-white from water, or is there water in the oil if you drain the oil?

Is it frozen from rust already?

Is the compression less than about 80 psi?

If yes to any of the above should consider pulling the engine for complete tear down, but could remove the head first to check head gasket and check for visible cracks, especially between cylinder and exhaust valve. If just head gasket, just put the head back on with new head gasket. May have to resurface head if just head gasket. Some cracks are not that visible and magnaflux is needed at machine shop. By the way you can rebuild the old Wisconsin engines and that would include the Palmer variation. Some cracks can be repaired.


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## FITZMAR (Jan 23, 2011)

Hi I would think because of the age of the eng and if there is water in the oil and no heatexchanger that I think about replacing it with a Beta Marine Eng. Thay have a nice eng that would fit in nicely.


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## LakeSuperiorGeezer (Oct 8, 2010)

The Palmer cannot be raw water cooled because it has lasted this long. That means any cracks can probably be repaired as there will be enough metal to weld. However assuming the worst, a diesel is going to take a lot of work to fit. A little one cylinder gas engine of 8 HP has got to be small compared to a diesel in the 10 HP range. A diesel is not going to fit unless a lot of work is put into it. Lets get some measurements and see. However, if all they want is an occasional use rather than Cruising The Intracoastal Waterway then a diesel at $5000 plus costs for installation parts and labor, economically does not make sense. It should be a long shaft outboard. For one with low hours, they are going for about $1000 on Craigslist in the Annapolis area. New is about $2800.


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## FITZMAR (Jan 23, 2011)

Hi If it had a heatexchanger you would have had to add water to it at one time.It is like A radiator. I have the spcs on the replacment eng for your boat.


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## LakeSuperiorGeezer (Oct 8, 2010)

A rule of thumb for horsepower is to take the weight of the boat in long tons and multiply by 3 or 4 horsepower per ton. For the Cape Cod Marlin, the weight is 3000 pounds so lets put an additional 360 pounds for crew and supplies on the boat and we get 3360 pounds divided by 2240 pounds per long ton, which is 1.5 long tons. Multiply 1.5 tons times 4 horsepower (HP) per ton and we get 6 HP or if we go with 3 horsepower per ton, then 4.5 HP for this boat. The water line length for this boat is 16.92 feet so the hull speed is 5.5 knots. At 5.5 knots it takes 8.3 HP; at 5.1 knots, 5.6 HP; at 4.6 knots, 3.5 HP; 4 knots, 2.9 HP; at 3.4 knots, 2 HP and 1.5 HP for 2.9 knots. What I find interesting is if you drop to 80% of hull speed, you cut the HP to 40 percent of that required for hull speed. For calculations see: Boat Speed Calculator


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I don't know whether this is AD, his partner, or else someone fitting a similar description, but just in case its not AD or his partner, I will repeat myself and in case this is AD, I say 'hello' and apologize for being repetative.

My family had a PW-27 on the first boat we owned. The PW-27 was a very robust little engine, and while they are pretty crude technology, that works in your favor since they are normally quite reliable and rebuildable. Many, if not all of the parts are available and they are pretty cheap as compared to either buying a new diesel or even an outboard motor. 

These engines do not have a heat exchanger and are in fact raw water cooled. These old engines had heavy enough castings that they actually lasted almost forever (I once owned a boat with a 40 year old Universal Blue Jacket which was last rebuilt 30 years before we bought the boat) 

To diagnose the problem, if you see white smoke, there is a good chance that you may be overheating, which can be a problem as simple as overly advanced timing, or a bad water pump, thermostat, or a clogged exhaust elbow. It may also be a blown head gasket, in which case, as has been suggested, would turn the lube oil milky and show moisture on the spark plug. It could also be more serious like a cracked block or clogged water passages. 

Since you say that you are not the mechanical partner, the white smoke could also be blue smoke, in which case it is probably not steam but lube oil burning, which means that you could use a ring job and/or valve guides. Neither are the end of the world cost wise but it does mean a rebuild in which case you might as well check and replace the crank bushings. A good mechanic can do that kind of work in their sleep. 

As has been suggested, the other way to go is a small diesel. I personally am a big fan of the Yanmar 1gm 10. Yanmars tend to be very reliable, and durable and the parts are comparatively cheap and readily available. The Nanni is a two cyl. that fits in the space of the Yanmar and weighs about the same. I don't know how the costs correspond, but the idea of trying to miniaturize a two cylinder diesel is not all that appealing to me. I'd stick with Yanmar's simple single. Adding a diesel will require reworking the engine beds (a little) and may have other clearance issues to bilheads or the hull(as in not cheap). A diesel will also require a heavier duty battery than the minimal battery that Palmer required. On the other hand, the diesel will have a more sophisticated alternator than the little Palmer generator (which may have been a combo starter/generator- I can't recall how ours was made)

But even adding an outboard, isn't all that cheap. Aesthetics aside, its not just a case of buying an outboard and bracket and then being good to go. You would need to beef up the transom to carry the weight and thrust of the bracket and outboard. I am sure the original poster would want an electric starter, which means rerouting the electrical and sorting out the fuel system. Then, there is still the cost and complication of glassing over the shaft log, and ballasting the boat back to her lines. While outboards are cheaper to buy initially, they are not as reliable as the older gas engine being replaced (assuming it is rebuilt) or the diesel being contemplated. I personally don't see that as a particularly good option.

My best advice is still, get a really good mechanic, someone who knows old gas engines and can rebuild them from the bottom up, and have them look at it. These engines are so simple to diagnose that you will know in no time and at minimal cost whether the Palmer is DOA, and at least at that point you would know if you have the rebuild option off the table. 

Jeff


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## LakeSuperiorGeezer (Oct 8, 2010)

*Rugged Little Engine*



Jeff_H said:


> To diagnose the problem, if you see white smoke, there is a good chance that you may be overheating, which can be a problem as simple as overly advanced timing, or a bad water pump, thermostat, or a clogged exhaust elbow. It may also be a blown head gasket
> Jeff


Jeff makes very good points in all of his email and the above items about "white smoke" are all easy to fix. Here is a picture of a PW-27 Palmer engine in a sailboat where the seller states the engine is closed cooled:
1965 Ted Hermann 22' Sailboat and Trailer Could also check if raw cooling water inlet on outside of hull has anything growing in it. Also check hoses and piping for leaks ahead of raw water pump as air could get into the line and cause air lock. On the raw water pump, the PW-27 Palmer does have a rubber impeller that needs attention every year or two. Here is a picture of the PW27 from manufacturer
http://www.oldmarineengine.com/images/photo39.JPG
and a way to order BH & PW27 service manual for $10:
Palmer Marine Engine Manuals - Palmer Brothers Service & Parts Manuals


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## LakeSuperiorGeezer (Oct 8, 2010)

At the very end of this picture of a Palmer PW-27, there is a water pump heading that states the pump is a rubber impeller type http://www.oldmarineengine.com/images/photo40.JPG and that is probably the overheating problem (cause of white smoke)

Jabsco impeller number is 4528-0003 for the Palmer and can be found on http://www.ittflowcontrol.com//files/section_10_impellers.pdf check the dimensions to make sure this is the correct impeller.
Jabsco states that an impeller should be replaced at least once every year even if it may last several years with correct installation because it is advisable to stick to a schedule of preventative, rather than corrective, maintenance. Use a little oil to help with putting a new one in and to help the pump draw water when started with new impeller.


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

I hope you can get your Palmer running again.
As a possible repower I stumbled upon this on the A4 forum: Universal Atomic 2, Kermath, Westerbeke, Yanmar - eBay (item 190497117429 end time Mar-02-11 08:22:54 PST)


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## degreeoff (Oct 25, 2009)

dude I would totally go for that! That is as inexpensive as you'll find and tiny tiny tiny! Wow I miss my A-4 for its quiet running now that I have a 23hp 3 cyl diesel that just makes a racket!


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

dude,
Yes, $2K for a 10 HP gas inboard engine sounds like a pretty good deal. 
I've never heard of that engine before but I'm no mechanic. 
Sometimes my engine is an Atomic 2, 3 or 4.


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## LakeSuperiorGeezer (Oct 8, 2010)

Brava, please let us know what the problem is on the Palmer. It's hard to diagnose while not actually being there and even then it's sometimes difficult.


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