# Can I learn on a 40' boat?



## welljim (Jun 15, 2012)

Hi everyone,

Green sailor here, just got my CYA Basic and trying to decide what to do next. Eventually I would like to give the cruising lifestyle a try, but for now I know that the usual advice is sail some more, then sail, sail, sail some more, then perhaps consider buying a boat. The problem in my case is that I live 3h away from the ocean, so I don't have the option of joining a yacht club, going to Sunday races as crew, or anything like that. The commuting time and fuel costs to the closest club just don't make sense, I could be using that money to repair/outfit and old boat.

I've only been on a 3-day cruise during my course and both my partner and I thoroughly enjoyed it, but we obviously have very little experience. However I feel that I understand everything taught and have no gaps on the said material. I have further self-studied the curriculum up to CYA Advanced and understand it well. Would it be stupid (i.e., dangerous), to buy a cruising boat at this stage, live aboard full time (i.e., no more rent and commuting to the ocean), and expect to slowly hone my skills on it? I have a strong preference for a Passport 40 or 42 by the way. They are typically rigged for short/single handing with all lines coming in the cockpit, but I suspect many would argue that it's too much of a boat for a beginner? What if I only took it out on fair weather in the beginning, to slowly gain experience?

I know that the typical advice would be "buy a small boat to gain experience, then sell and buy a suitable cruising boat". Normally, that would be a no-brainer. However, the reality is that in this market it's really hard to sell a boat even if it's popular and well maintained, let alone some crappy old little boat. And there is no economic fundamental to support a recover of the global economy any time soon, so I feel that this decision could be the make or brake of my cruising pursuits: being stack with a small boat that I cannot sell for years to come would be the ultimate deal-breaker. If it did sell, it would probably be at a material loss.

So, how realistic is the idea of honing my skills on a Passport 40 or 42, perhaps after taking a docking clinic with an experienced skipper on it? If you think it's a terrible idea, please explain why exactly so that I can better understand what the challenges are. Just saying "oh, you'll die", or "you'll loose the boat" will not be very helpful, so I'd appreciate some depth there. More particularly, in what areas exactly would I need to become proficient to safely operate this boat, and what, if any, would prevent me from learning it on that boat?

Some more details about us:
- I'm a software engineer so can work remotely as long as I can establish an Internet connection
- My partner is an archivist and works locally, she can only quit her job if we move aboard (so we have no more expensive rent to cover)
- Areas of interest: we'd like to cover low latitude tropics, the med, AU & NZ, in no particular order or timeframe (obviously we may never make it, it's just a wish)

Many thanks for reading, any advice appreciated!


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## night0wl (Mar 20, 2006)

If you're not afraid of banging up the gelcoat and making mistakes...sure, go for it. 

I did the same thing...bought a brand new 35' boat not having the skills. The first day pulling away from the slip, I managed to crash into a piling, bending the toe rail a bit, marking the gelcoat, and busting a pelican clip and lifeline...not to mention my ego.

But, everything is repairable.

As for sail sail sail...my advice would be to "charter charter charter" to see if you like living aboard for a week or more. Thats more indicative of the cruising lifestyle than staying in a slip or marina.

Oh and living aboard a 40' boat will have rent in a marina. Probably equivalent to 1 bedroom apartment! Most places down here are $10 a foot per month (private dock)...so for a 40' boat, you're looking at $400 a month + water + electric. So its not like you can live for free.

Think of it this way. You're asking the equivalent of asking a fortran programmer to pick up Java and write a fully object oriented application with no training except some youtube videos. It can be done, but lots of mistakes will be made along the way.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

welljim said:


> ... However I feel that I understand everything taught and have no gaps on the said material. I have further self-studied the curriculum up to CYA Advanced and understand it well.


You might understand what you've been taught, but chances are you haven't begun to scratch the surface of what you'll need to safely and enjoyably sail the way you described is your goal. One never stops learning with a sailboat. There is always another hill to climb and I hope to put an ocean between me and the person who says he or she knows everything there is to know about sailing.



welljim said:


> Would it be stupid (i.e., dangerous), to buy a cruising boat at this stage, live aboard full time (i.e., no more rent and commuting to the ocean), and expect to slowly hone my skills on it? ...


My opinion is that one learns how to operate a boat that big, not how to sail. You'll miss the nuances of how things like current and wind and the rest impact the boat. The smaller the boat, the more responsive it is to the elements and the more you learn about sailing, not just getting from Point A to Point B.



welljim said:


> Normally, that would be a no-brainer. However, the reality is that in this market it's really hard to sell a boat even if it's popular and well maintained, let alone some crappy old little boat. ...


I believe there is a buyer for almost any boat.



welljim said:


> ... If it did sell, it would probably be at a material loss....


Anyone who buys a boat and expects to not take a loss, is hallucinating, no matter how well maintained the boat is. Selling the boat for more than you paid for it is rare, not that it isn't done. And what you save in rent and commuting costs will simply be transferred to maintenance, slip/mooring fees, insurance and repairs on the boat. And a 40 footer ain't cheap to maintain.

Good luck with whatever you decide!


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

We have friends who chartered several times over the years and bought (as their first boat) a Passport 40 upon retirement. They cruised locally for 2 or three years, all the while preparing the boat for offshore, and left for Mexico, harbour hopping the West Coast in appropriate weather windows with plenty of time to do so.

They enjoyed 3 seasons in Mexico before deciding that an ocean crossing was not in their playbook, whereupon they shipped the boat home where she sits now on their dock, once again enjoying the excellent local cruising.

So, yes, it can be done. These days it seems more people are diving in with bigger boats.. the 'standard' starter boat nowadays seems to be well into the 'over 30 foot' category. I guess the boomers just have more money to spend....

I think the bigger risk is the actual purchase of a boat that large and complex without enough background to know what's good, what's not, and what is a real problem - and what isn't, what's a good buy and what isn't... etc.


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## Slippydiq (Jun 11, 2012)

Just do it. Doesn't really matter what vessel your sailing its going to have a learning curve. When we went from a 25 Cal fin keel to a 35 S&S full keel it was like walking all over again. From tiller to wheel , from gas to diesel. There was always something new. If we were to do it all over again I would start with a Formosa 51 and work my way back. If we sailed and sailed and sailed only a Formosa 51 then we would be great sailors provided we only sailed that boat. Put us in a Sunfish 14 and we would probably die... The nice thing about larger vessels is you can actually live aboard in comfort as you learn and every smaller boat gets the hell out of your way when they see you coming so you can worry only about your boat and the hell with COLREGs for now


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

Slippydiq said:


> ...and every smaller boat gets the hell out of your way when they see you coming so you can worry only about your boat and the hell with COLREGs for now


Nice.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

Yes. But before attempting other higher stanadrds get some helm time. 

This may sound like heresy, but you do not need CYA Advanced. Get your coastal nav, your first aid, a VHF ROC and go sailing. Do the Intermediate course later.

It is skills you want, the knowledge to instrumental to the skills.

If you want an adventure, do the Advanced course.


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## Slippydiq (Jun 11, 2012)

The point was simply to point out that perfection is not expected from day one..most sailors can look at the sail trim of another boat and realize that this is a newbie coming your way. Unless you are totally self righteous you will cut the other boat some slack. Sailing is suppose to be a pleasure and teaching others is part of our sport. The first time we went out I was caught in the middle of a regatta and that was the best way "make friends and influence people". The Anal crowd was all over us but within the squadron was a group of "sailors" that offered advice and offers to sail with us until our skills improved. Even to this date we still get a Ch 16 hail about a great tack from the "sailors" and been invited to crew for various regattas over the years. Much like society today I guess your not suppose to do anything unless your an expert or have a papers from an accredited school. I guess I just have an issue with protocol over "doing it". Just keep sailing and deep inside you will recognize the day when "I get man I finally freaking got it". Then you own the boat.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Welljim, where are you?
If you are local, I would be happy to offer your the "Dock 6 live-aboard experience" - come spend a week with us as a try-before-you-buy program. Learn what living, loving and working on a boat is all about, including docking a high-windage pig in an exposed slip.
You can work your way up from docking small boats to bigger boats to stupid big boats, all under the watchful and critical eye of the "beer-before-noon- is- okay" dockside critics association.
if you and your spouse are still talking, or at least living in the same area code, at the end of the week, you are certified to buy any damn boat you want.


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## welljim (Jun 15, 2012)

well this is an excellent forum, I'm very impressed with the speed that advice and views come in, many thanks everyone!

Just to keep the discussion on the right track: I do realize how little I know, which is why I posted this question in the first place. Frankly, I don't mind the formalities (i.e. CYA certs), I only mentioned it to explain that I've done the homework but that I have no experience. I don't mind making mistakes, and I don't mind other sailors around realizing that I'm a beginner (my pride is very cheap, hehe), as long as such mistakes won't cost the boat or crew safety. What I'm trying to establish is, can I reasonably assume that the above 2 conditions will be ok, provided I take a docking clinic, and that I go out when the weather permits until I feel more confident? Within that context, what should I keep in mind, and what do you think may go wrong?

Thanks again!



> Welljim, where are you?


I'm in BC, unfortunately you are much further than my "local" sailing club. I was considering taking another weekly cruise however, before committing to buy.

*jackdale:* it's a small world after all, I'm the guy who was bugging you to join the offshore Vancouver-Maui course  Hope you guys do great, good luck with the race and we'll be waiting to hear some great stories!


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## sailguy40 (Feb 6, 2010)

I have mixed opinions on this. To actually just learn how to sail and improve your skills, something in the 20ft to 26ft would be easier to handle (at least single handed) and maintain. Now since you are saying you want to get into cruising and possibly live aboard, I would say go for the 40'. If you go with something less you will end up spending money on it and take a loss when you go to sell. If you go with the 40' now you won't outgrow it and you will be done. I give you an example, I was looking at a 22 and a 25, I went with the much nicer 22 instead of the bigger but some work required 25. A few told me I may want a bigger boat before I know it if I went with the 22 and they were right. Although I have gotten in more sailing time then you would imagine in the couple years I owned mine. So at this point I am a much better sailor since the 22 did not need any work, all sailing hardly any work. The other side of this is, had I went with the 25 I would have bigger and just as nice at this point but less sailing time. I think if I had to go back, I would have went 25. Back then as a new sailor, it just looked huge to me since I was used to 16 to 18ft power boats. Now I see a 25 as a small boat that I can easily handle. Earlier this year I was looking into 34's and 36's which is what I want to go into soon. Although I will most likely keep my 22 and put it on a trailer, love it.


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

Let me tell you of a prairie man from Weyburn Sask Had a dream. Came out to the coast and bought a 40 ft ferro gaff schooner in the slip next to me. Asked a lot of questions, followed some of the answers and sailed away with wife and two daughters .Did Mexico with honors Hawaii and Fiji and back to BC around the High. Then died of cancer. Gotta be a moral type message here. Something about time and tide maybe.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

Learning to sail on a 40ft boat is OK things will happen slowly and other than being careful of the loads involved it will be as easy if not easier than on a smaller boat.

BUT learning to dock a 40ft boat could be expensive.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

The short answer is that you can learn to sail on a 40 footer, but its a terrible idea. The learning curve gets very long, and the chance of hurting someone is directly proportionate to the displacement of the boat. Even if you bought a small boat, sailed it for a year, and then gave it away, you would be well ahead of the game financially compared to the cost of buying the wrong boat, beating it up and reselling it because you don't know enough yet to know what the right boat will be for you once you have developed your own tastes as a sailor. 

I apologize that this was written for someone else so it does not apply entirely but it is a pretty good explanation of where I am coming from on this....

The dream of voyaging under sail can be a powerful one. There was a period when several times a month I would receive an email from someone who is considering doing just what you are proposing. I have watched literally dozens of folks go through this. Some are successful in getting 'out there', some discover that they really enjoy sailing and find that they really have no need to 'go out there’; some have discovered that the sailing life is just not for them, and others have not even gotten past the dreaming stage. 

From what I have seen, the most successful (especially when children are involved) have been the ones who have been somewhat systematic about going. There is a lot to learn before one can safely venture offshore. No one would assume that they could buy a jet airliner take a few lessons and be able to fly around the world. I think most rational people would expect to start with a small plane and work their way up. But for some reason people assume that they can just go out and buy a big boat, take a couple lessons, read a few books, and then go safely cruising.

While there are people who literally taken a few lessons, read a few books and went out cruising, those that were successful following that route are far more rare than those who have done some kind of apprenticeship. Learning to sail and learning to cruise involves a lot of knowledge and no matter how much you know, there will always be more to learn, but I suggest that you at least take the time to learn the basics, and that just about can’t happen if you buy ‘a big sailboat’ and move your family aboard. 

I find myself saying this a lot lately but here I go again. We all come to sailing with our own specific needs, our own specific goals and our own specific capabilities. The neat thing about sailing is that we all don’t have to agree that there is only one right way to go sailing. There is no more truth in expecting that there is one universally right answer about many aspects of sailing than there is in trying to prove that vanilla ice cream is universally better than strawberry ice cream. One area of sailing for which there is no one universally right answer involves the amount of knowledge one requires to go sailing. 

For some, all they need or want to know about sailing is just enough knowledge to safely leave the slip sail where they want and get back safely. There is nothing inherently wrong with that approach. Lack of knowledge will impact the level of risk, cost, comfort, and performance, but if you want to get out there with minimal knowledge it can be done. But for others, like myself, there is much more to sailing than simply developing a rudimentary knowledge of sailing basics. If you fall into that camp, it is next to impossible to learn to sail really well on a boat as large as the one in question. 

While I am in no way suggesting that this makes sense for everyone, for those who really want to learn to sail well, I strongly suggest that they start out owning a used 23 to 27 foot, responsive, light-weight, tiller steered, fin keel/spade rudder (ideally fractionally rigged) sloop (or if they are athletically inclined then a dinghy.) Boats like these provide the kind of feedback that is so necessary to teach a newcomer how to really sail well. Boats like these have small enough loads on lines and the helm that you and your children can all participate and learn together. Being able to learn and participate, the children will be more engaged and less likely to be bored and feel kidnapped. 

By sailing well, I mean understanding the nuances of boat handling and sail trim in a way that cannot be learned on a larger boat. Used small boats generally hold their values quite well so that after a year or even few years or so of learning, you should be able to get most of your money out of the small boat and move on to a bigger boat actually knowing something about which specific desirable characteristics of a boat appeal to you as an experienced sailor rather than the preferences of some stranger on some Internet discussion group.

From the advice that you have already gotten you can tell that there will not be a consensus of opinion on how to go distance cruising. It is nearly impossible to learn to sail well on a boat that is large enough for a serious cruising, and without highly developed sailing skills, a boat that large is pretty dangerous offshore. 

In any event, if I were in your shoes, I would sit down and put together a list of all of the things that I would want to know before I set off voyaging such as:
Boat handling
Sail trim
Rules of the road
Weather 
Routing
Boat husbandry, repair and maintenance
Diesel/ gas engine maintenance and repair
First aid
Heavy weather tactics
Legal restrictions on leaving and entering foreign countries
Navigation, (Piloting, Celestial, dead reckoning and electronic) 
Provisioning
Radio operators license exam requirements
Safe and dangerous fish to eat
Sail trim
Survival skills 
Etc………..

Once I had what I thought was a complete list, I would set up a schedule to try to develop those areas of skill that I was currently lacking. As much as possible I would try to involve all those involved in as many of those aspects as each is capable of understanding. This process could take as little as a year, but more often takes two to three years. The process itself can be very rewarding and can build the kind of family bonds that are required to be cast away on that oh so small island that a boat underway represents. 

Respectfully,
Jeff


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

Slippydiq said:


> and every smaller boat gets the hell out of your way when they see you coming so you can worry only about your boat and the hell with COLREGs for now


hope your insurance broker doesn't get wind of your thoughs about COLREGS. And really, compliments on a tack on 16? I'm sure the CG appreciates you too.:laugher

But I agree that where there's a will, there's a way. Buy the 40 footer AND take some small boat sailing lessons.


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## welljim (Jun 15, 2012)

Thanks everyone, I really enjoy the debate, very helpful. I think we'll end up following everyone's advice: there is a small lake (1.1 km²) really close to where we live, and there is a dinghy club. I didn't consider it before because when I asked, people said there are no transferable skills between dinghies and keel boats, but some of you seem to disagree. We could spend some time in the lake playing with a dinghy, while repairing and outfitting that P40. Of course we won't be expert sailors by then, but between putting cruising behind for a couple of years until we are 'ready' (and maybe changing our mind in between), and going for it now while making a few (or more than a few) mistakes along the way, I choose the latter. From what I understand by most of your responses, if we respect loads and do a docking clinic, we should be ok. In any case, I'm not suggesting to head offshore the first day, I'm sure there is plenty to see while coastal cruising the first 1 or 2 years.

We have no kids btw, it's just my partner and me and we are in our early thirties. No plans for kids, hopefully we won't regret when it's too late. But that's another discussion for the bar, hehe 



> No one would assume that they could buy a jet airliner take a few lessons and be able to fly around the world.


 Not sure if you happen to be a pilot (I am), funny enough, flying around the world is not much more difficult than flying domestically. Just very expensive.

.


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## dnf777 (Jun 23, 2007)

I taught myself to sail on a 15 foot fract.sloop. When I later jumped to a 40' boat, the skipper asked what I was taking lessons for. Of course there is ALWAYS more to learn, and each boat will present lessons differently, but I can't imagine anyone saying that skills are not transferrable. 

I think the biggest difference in big boats and little boats is the amount of damage you can quickly do. Docking is of course a tad more challenging, but the same basic rules apply. I don't think I would solo-teach myself in a boat much bigger than 20 feet or so, but that's just me. Having some experience along never hurts, and can speed the learning curve and safety margin. Have fun.


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## ardoin (Mar 8, 2008)

You can do it!
Big boats react slower but sail the same. Likewise big boats have a slower reaction because they have much more mass and much more inertia. So while bringing a 24ft boat into a slip with a 4hp motor is easy, brining a 40ft boat that weight 30K lbs into a slip with a Yanmar 4 cyl engine is a learning experience. At 1kt of speed the 24ft boat will bounce off the dock with no damage, but the 40ft boat could do quite a bit of damage at the same speed.
Sail other people's boats as often as you can until you decide on the right boat for you.


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## bchaps (Mar 30, 2010)

WellJim...before purchasing our 40 foot sailboat and having no sailing experience, we also heard all of the arguments; Pro and Con. The bottom line is you must decide if you are committed to learning how to sail by taking baby steps and seeking experienced counsel/help as needed.

Ten months after inking the purchase deal, my wife and I set sail for the Keys. We lived on the water for seven months, logging over 2000 miles and did a 36 hour ride up the Gulf stream from Ft. Pierce to Georgetown. Did we have some hair raising moments...yep! Do we now know everything...Of Course Not! But that doesn't stop us from cautiously moving forward. Six months in the Bahamas are planned for this fall. But note: My wife and I have an agreement that either of us can say "stop" and we return to land and if one says "that's enough", the boat is up for sale.

My suggestion: Read everything you can find, ask lots of questions, hire a qualified sailing instructor, pay a good mechanic to teach you basic engine maintenance, be prepared to spend lots of money!...and take baby steps, building on earlier accomplishments, and practice, practice, practice, and have fun.

Bill & Judy


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## night0wl (Mar 20, 2006)

JeffH - dont forget close quarters boat handling. This is key when it comes to not providing entertainment for others at the marina...


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## WDS123 (Apr 2, 2011)

Yes Yes Yes


Now for some advice:

1) do not think in terms of length think displacement.

2) get the liveaboard, but also get a little dinghy to hone your sailing skills. Pick up a beat up sunfish or Naples sabot ( doubles as a tender ) on craigslist for $500.


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## ebs001 (May 8, 2006)

When someone asks a question like this I always think of the Ottawa family who bought a 42 foot steel ketch and with no experience sailed around the world. You can read a about them here main 
Herbert, the husband, spent six afternoons sailing on a 23 foot boat on the Ottawa River and Diane, the wife, spent one afternoon sailing. The first time they actually sailed "Northern Magic" was on the Atlantic out of New York city.


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

you CAN learn on ANY SIZE BOAT. is a matter of doing so. my sibs and i were taught using a 36 ft gaff rigged sloop belonging to my momma's uncle, our uncle phil. he was best teacher anyone could ever have to learn sailing, and his boat was fun to sail. 
go for it and smooth sailing.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

To quote from the movie _Wind_, "the big boats get the glory but the small boats make the sailor."

Perhaps that truism combined with the tendency to jump into big boats is why so many cruisers motor so much.

In a smaller boat things happen faster and the connection between cause and effect really helps learning. On a larger boat even normally patient people have gone on to fiddle with something else before an initial adjustment takes effect. How can one truly learn in that environment.

A boat like a J/80 is stable enough for adult learners to focus on learning instead of staying upright and small enough for rapid feedback and good learning. J/World sailing schools (and all the alternatives that use similar curricula and sized boats) pack a lot of learning into a short time.

Even if one chooses to buy a 40 right off the bat, sailing lessons on a smaller boat is a good idea. There will be a natural tendency to want to "learn on my own boat" but you will learn to sail your boat better if you learn on a smaller craft.

I relish the experience I gained on 420s in college and various 20ish foot boats before moving on to bigger and bigger boats. A good deal of my sailing ability today I trace directly back to those small boats.

Do what you want of course - we all make our own choices. Don't be surprised if the fellow in a beer can race, or who leaves port with you and gets into the next inlet a day ahead of you (and in advance of that nasty weather you had to sail through), started out in small boats.


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## Heinous (Mar 25, 2009)

Yes. You certainly can.

I had never sailed before taking delivery of my boat. I read a couple of "how to sail" books and then took her out into the bay to figure it out. I was very familiar with powerboats, however, and I learn pretty quickly, so your experience may vary.

Edit: I should add that I still learn something new almost every time I go sailing.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

night0wl said:


> JeffH - dont forget close quarters boat handling. This is key when it comes to not providing entertainment for others at the marina...


Was that you in Annapolis Harbor who hailed me as I was sailing through the anchorage after the Island Packet turned 90 degrees across my path with anchored boats on either side of me?


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

SVAuspicious said:


> To quote from the movie _Wind_, "the big boats get the glory but the small boats make the sailor."


In gusty weather, if given the choice between leaving the helm with a experienced dingy sailor or an experienced cruising boat sailor with no dingy expereince, I'd go with the dingy sailor every time.

True, many things are different. Big boats are about planning and systems, where small boats are about balance and reaction. But in my mind, when the wind really gets up, big boats act a lot like dingies in a breeze, and those reactions are best learned when mistakes are safe and cheap.

You need both.

------------

Besides which, dingies are more fun, sailed off the beach on a nice day, rather like riding a bike is way more fun than driving a Winnebago.


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## SimonV (Jul 6, 2006)

Yes you can, and one season later you will wounder what all the fuss was about, specially by the nay sayers.


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## paintpollz (Nov 16, 2011)

As someone that's looking to get into sailing in the next 5 years, I've learned on these forums that it's best to avoid any hassel or impediments when it comes to sailing. 

Working your way up from small boat to big boat can be such a PITA and a drain on your wallet. The whole buying and selling thing every 2 years sounds miserable......

My first boat will probably be in the 35-40 foot range, and definitely not any smaller than that. I dont have any problems with spending a couple thousand dollars (after I take the courses) to have someone come on board to help out with the learning curve.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

paintpollz said:


> As someone that's looking to get into sailing in the next 5 years, I've learned on these forums that it's best to avoid any hassel or impediments when it comes to sailing.
> 
> Working your way up from small boat to big boat can be such a PITA and a drain on your wallet. The whole buying and selling thing every 2 years sounds miserable......
> 
> My first boat will probably be in the 35-40 foot range, and definitely not any smaller than that. I dont have any problems with spending a couple thousand dollars (after I take the courses) to have someone come on board to help out with the learning curve.


Having taught perhaps a 100 or more people to sail in my lifetime, and having owned over a dozen boats in my life, I can assure you that the difficulty in learning to learn to sail well on a bigger boat is not about the instructor, but about the responsiveness and feel of sailing a small boat vs bigger boat. And you can buy and sell that small boat with less expense and hassle than dealing with repairing one major screw-up on a big boat.

And having been through this process with perhaps a couple hundred families and individuals, I have observed that whether they started with a big boat or a smaller boat, more often than not their first boat was not be the boat they owned 2-3 years later. The only difference between starting small vs starting large is in whether you are going through the PITA and expense of selling a big boat or selling a small boat, with the PITA-iness and expensiveness directly proportionate to the size of the boat.


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## night0wl (Mar 20, 2006)

Why not investigate some of those fractional boat programs like Sailtime and do one of their smaller boats initially. They offer courses to learn to sail on those cruising class boats and their smaller boats (33' or so) for about $600 a month and ASA classes for $2000 or so.

No marina bill, no haulouts, no brokerage commissions and a relatively new boat. 

Once you've mastered the boat over a couple of seasons, then buy your 40'


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

I agree with Jeff H above.

While we sailed our 22 footer we learned more about sailing and what we really wanted in a larger boat based on our experiences in the smaller boat. That boat ended up getting damaged in the slip during a storm so we gave it away since the cost to repair was going to be expensive and we had already researched and settled on our choice for our next boat based on how and where we wanted to sail. 

Now we're on the next boat (30 feet) and as we gain more experience I'm researching the final boat (with a potential buyer in the wings for the current boat when we're ready to sell). But for now we're sailing the appropriate boat for our cruising area and personal needs. The next boat will be appropriate for how and where we want to sail in the future.

So far, that plan is working for us. In the meantime we're sailing rather than waiting to buy a boat.


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## Paddyd (Jun 14, 2012)

the best boat is the smallest boat needed to get the job done , once you have a boat ...get organised dont become a dock duck .....go out every weekend ...if it is raining go out ,,,if it is cold go out ....if it is foggy go out ....remember the 5 P's ......we take our boat out at least 4 times per month for over nighters 
we are practising for the real thing when we take off in 4 yrs 5 months and counting ......honing our skills 

we sail , anchor off and have fun 
Last weekend we watched fireworks and then after 12 pm at night did 5 miles of of motorsailing thru the ICW ...for practice .....we used just a compass , hand chart and used no spot lights to check markers all with the naked eye , compass and Dead rechoning ..me on the bow pointing makers , giving hand signals and Nance working the wheel and checking compassing headings ..the next morning we laughed and spoke for hours about the adventure and how well it honed our team work , hand signals and night navigation skills 
on a better note ....it has strengthened our relationship in more ways than we count .....


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

Paddyd said:


> ...
> we are practising for the real thing when we take off in 4 yrs 5 months and counting ......honing our skills


It's great that you're honing your skills and building your relationship, but *any* sailing is "the real thing" no matter if it's on a lake, bay, coast or ocean, not just those who sail offshore.


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## fendertweed (Apr 4, 2003)

SVAuspicious said:


> To quote from the movie _Wind_, "the big boats get the glory but the small boats make the sailor."
> 
> Perhaps that truism combined with the tendency to jump into big boats is why so many cruisers motor so much.
> 
> ...


Amen.... I started out on my grandfather's Cape Cod Knockabout at age 4 or so, sailed that in P'town during 9 summers and also Sunfishes as a kid, one short 3-day ride on the John Alden Malabar X in the Bahamas c. '69 (wow), and back to Flying Scots & 16-19 footers til I bought my Pearson 26 in '03. Made a huge difference to have had the prior experience on smaller boats.

Seems like much of the adjustment going up now to 30' (or 40') is systems knowledge (engine (diesel v. outboard, electrical, plumbing, nav, etc.), the sailing part (a never ending education) has been firmed up but there are more things to worry about/maintain on the bigger boat.


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## CapnBilll (Sep 9, 2006)

WDS123 said:


> Yes Yes Yes
> 
> Now for some advice:
> 
> ...


+1

Don't worry about selling the small sailboat for a loss, they are practically free now.


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## sailortrash (Sep 1, 2012)

Theory and reality are two very different things. A three day course and some self teaching does not a sailor make. Why not buy the big boat move on it and join the yacht club. Then you could use their small boats to learn and be living on a boat at the same time. If you get the boat you will make other sailing friends that have experience and they would probably be happy to take you sailing on their boats for not much more than a drink or two afterwards.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Jeff_H said:


> PITA-iness


Is that a word?

I agree with those above who say go for it on the 40. It's a nice size for a liveaboard - and will be a great boat to take anywhere you want to take it.

Just find seasoned sailors to take you out on it for your first season until you guys get the hang of it. Be conservative. Expect some dings.

But learning to sail on _your_ boat is the best training you can have. You just have to respect the learning curve.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

welljim said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> Green sailor here, just got my CYA Basic and trying to decide what to do next. Eventually I would like to give the cruising lifestyle a try, but for now I know that the usual advice is sail some more, then sail, sail, sail some more, then perhaps consider buying a boat. The problem in my case is that I live 3h away from the ocean, so I don't have the option of joining a yacht club, going to Sunday races as crew, or anything like that. The commuting time and fuel costs to the closest club just don't make sense, I could be using that money to repair/outfit and old boat.
> 
> ...


I agree with and disagree with many of the posts, but in general, I would say go for it. I like the Passports too, BTW. You should also look at a Tayana 42 if you like them or a Baba or maybe even a Panda 38... but that is all for another thread.

Lets see...

The sailing part is simple on larger boats. THre are more things to learn, but when you screw up, you generally just go slower. You don't end up in the water like on a Hobie. However, getting smacked in the head with the boom may not kill you on a Hobie but certainly can on a large vessel. I say this not to warn you off (I think you should do it). I say this only as another comparrison. So in general, don't worry about the sailing. Grab a good learning to sail book, and you will be ok after many attempts. Or bettter yet, just hire a captain to take you out a few times. I think this is the best idea because...

The docking part is the hard part, especially without a bow thruster. Takes lots of practice. You will screw it up. We all do. But if you can get a capt to take you out a few times, you will at least (hopefully0 minimize the number of times you have to call the gell coat fixer! He can also show you some tricks.

THe biggest chalenge you will face though, in my opinion as someone who does Live Aboard and Cruise (with kids and a bulldog even), is learning to live aboard happily. Many try and many fail. The space will take getting used to. And unless you are made of money, you better get real familiar with large boat systems from electronics, electical, plumbing, leaking hatches, etc. I could name a bunch of them. Get, "A Boatowners Guide to Mechanical and Electrical Systems" by Nigel Calder. I have been doing this since 1995 and still grab his book on things.

Lastly, there are many people that can do this life (living aboard) on a very modest budget. I applaud them. However, I cannot and I doubt most of the people in your marina that LA do either. We do this for the lifestyle, not the cost. Cheapest place to stay is in a cheap apartment. Best and funnest (for us) is a boat. Go to West Marine somtime before you buy a boat and check out the prices of that stuff. Take a look what diesel and gas costs. You will get an eye opener real quick and I have not even scratched the surface.

My initial opinions.

Brian


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Oh yeah, one last thing. In my opinion, the best way to learn to become a great sailor is not dinghy sailing. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE it (esp Hobie Cats). However, I think the best way to become a better cruiser is crew with racers. Even if you dont like racing (which racing on a good boat and with a good crew will probably change your mind), those guys are great sailors and all cruisers can learn from them. Plus, this s free and non-committal... at least from a financial standpoint. Not to mention, you might fall in love with it!!

Brian


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## cktalons (Jun 2, 2011)

welljim,
Go for it. You sound like you have a level-head and common sense, which many boaters don't seem to have (watch them try to anchor or dock and you'll see my point). You're already aware that you have a lot to learn, and that's wise and will keep you safe. There's so much to learn in sailing anyway, we're always learning something. It sounds like what you don't know, you'll look up and get an answer to it. Rock on, then! 

I know a guy who just bought a Passport 40 down here in Seattle, and Deb and Marty of threesheetsnw.com also bought a Passport 40 recently. Great boats, and if you're willing, you absolutely can learn on it. Also, good taste, those be purdy vessels.

As for docking, it seems the secret to docking is finding the right degree of slowness. I watch as a lot of boats try docking with the wind and not into it, or people come into the marina a mach 2 like it's a race. Both methods lead to common problems if not absolute destruction. I dock my 30 footer alone, and have found that it's all about finding the sweet spot of "how slow can I go and still steer?" If you're docking into the wind, the wind pushing against you will slow it down. If it's hitting your nose at an angle, you adjust for it (kind of like playing pool...), and let the wind position you just right. The more windy it is, the longer the boat is in gear before dropping it into neutral when you're entering the slip. Practice a lot on calm days. When you've nailed that, practice on breezy days. You get the idea.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

cktalons said:


> welljim,
> Go for it. You sound like you have a level-head and common sense, which many boaters don't seem to have (watch them try to anchor or dock and you'll see my point). You're already aware that you have a lot to learn, and that's wise and will keep you safe. There's so much to learn in sailing anyway, we're always learning something. It sounds like what you don't know, you'll look up and get an answer to it. Rock on, then!
> 
> I know a guy who just bought a Passport 40 down here in Seattle, and Deb and Marty of threesheetsnw.com also bought a Passport 40 recently. Great boats, and if you're willing, you absolutely can learn on it. Also, good taste, those be purdy vessels.
> ...


Good post. Btw, have not followed how your boat has worked out. Hopefully it is going well. ALso owe you an email.

Brian


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## LaPoodella (Oct 5, 2018)

welljim said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> Green sailor here, just got my CYA Basic and trying to decide what to do next. Eventually I would like to give the cruising lifestyle a try, but for now I know that the usual advice is sail some more, then sail, sail, sail some more, then perhaps consider buying a boat. The problem in my case is that I live 3h away from the ocean, so I don't have the option of joining a yacht club, going to Sunday races as crew, or anything like that. The commuting time and fuel costs to the closest club just don't make sense, I could be using that money to repair/outfit and old boat.
> 
> ...


The costs of owning a boat cannot be minimized. Whenever my husband and I have bought a boat (at least 6 times depending on how one counts) we have said, "the boat is free." Because the cost of ownership is a multiple of the price of the boat. And the cheaper the boat, the higher the multiple because it probably needs more work. And we price things that break on the boat in "units". The bigger the boat, the bigger the "unit." On the other hand, as racing crew you can build a relationship with the owner who, over time, can help with commuting costs and lodging. As a retired racer, we often fed and housed good crew. The first few times, you will need to prove that you will show up reliably. So figure on proving yourself the first season. I have made friends with crew who eventually joined the yacht club, bought a boat, got a slip at the club and therefore below market rent for said slip, and ended up spending weekends living on their boat in a beautiful spot. It probably took some years to achieve this, but they were young so it worked out for them. Their sailing skills have really improved. And they have a nice boat (their third now because a sudden storm took one at the dock).

Assuming you are making passages: 
Each boat is unique so you would have to learn your boat and how to dock it no matter what. You need towing insurance. You need to know how to manage your tanks: fuel, fresh water, black water. You need to be able to repair plumbing. And electricity. The danger is not getting enough time on the water on your boat before making a passage such that if there is an emergency, you don't know what to do. You need to know how to repair your engine. How to manage without it, so how to sail without any power. What to do if you lose your electricity and all your electronics. How to predict weather from observation. How to read the water. How to change sails in the dark without power. How to furl and unfurl a self furling sail without power. How to move sails on the boat. How to deploy a storm jib. How to rescue a man overboard. And in the dark. How to deploy a life raft. How to get into the life raft. You need to be able to do these things without instruction, fast and without yelling at each other. You need to know you each know what you are doing and are able to rely on the other. You need to be able to douse sails in a big hurry. Fast. Fast Fast. (This is why racing is good for teaching.) And you need to be able to do it without looking at anything, like blindfolded. Learn about epirbs and aiS. Since you are a software pro, learn satellite phones, sat Internet, sat weather. But you'll need to read weather, water and navigation without electronics in case you lose your engine/gen. If making a long passage, you might want backup autopilot that is wind generated. When our autopilot broke we had 4 total crew so we were able to just steer to a west coast Mexican port. Luckily, one crew was scheduled to fly to USA and brought the broken part with him and returned with a new one so we didn't lose any cruising time. But in your case of living aboard that might not work. So you'd need to think about a wind vane autopilot. Or know how to rig your rudder for a course without autopilot. You need to know how to install a backup tiller. You need to know about storm drougues. Don't forget to learn how to anchor. You will need a good sail inventory in case one rips. You might want a sewing machine for canvas and/or sail work. They are expensive (Sailrite). And right now, you will need to wait a very long time for materials, parts, and more. I needed an engine pan and ordered it over a year ago. It just arrived. There's a lot more but I'm out of time. And I'm sure I don't even know everything I need to know. EAch time I go out, I learn something new. Been sailing 58 years: solo, double handed, part of a 16 person racing crew short and long distance races.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

About 15 years ago I surveyed a Catalina 47' for a fella that had never been on a boat. It took him two weeks to get situated onboard during which time he never left the dock. The first time he cast off he left Lake Ontario and told me he was going to Trinidad. I spent the next year watching the news for the story of his demise. A year Later I got an email from hiim in Trinidad. .... "Wallace ! C'mon down" ... He's been happily cruising and a good friend ever since.


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## Overdue (Jun 14, 2021)

This post is nine years old?


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Overdue said:


> This post is nine years old?


Yes. People can search back old posts and make a comment. Obviously it's fine in some threads. Others we close. 😊


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

boatpoker said:


> About 15 years ago I surveyed a Catalina 47' for a fella that had never been on a boat. It took him two weeks to get situated onboard during which time he never left the dock. The first time he cast off he left Lake Ontario and told me he was going to Trinidad. I spent the next year watching the news for the story of his demise. A year Later I got an email from hiim in Trinidad. .... "Wallace ! C'mon down" ... He's been happily cruising and a good friend ever since.


Also about fifteen years ago, I helped some novice sailors. These four very young men were working on their Oday 22 at the dock next to me when I came in from an evening solo sail.

They had just bought the boat for a pittance as the prior owner had been transferred and had to get rid of it. They told me their plan was to leave the next morning for Newport. They asked "we can make that in one day, no problem, right?" I explained that unless they were going to travel in the dark, that no, it would take them much longer than that. I offered to show them on their chart. Except it turns out, they had no charts. As the conversation progressed, it turned out they also had no radio, flares, and no pfds. Their plan, such as it was, was to sail to Newport, anchor in the harbor, swim to shore, and partay.

I also noticed that they had no real idea how to rig their boat. The one of them that supposedly had experience had the boom attached incorrectly, and used the vang as the Mainsheet. As I helped them sort it out, I also found out that they had only one gas can that held three gallons.

It was getting late, so I made a list for them of the things I thought they needed to buy before they set off. I have no idea if they followed any of my suggestions, but I later found out they did survive. Years later I was telling this story and mentioned the boat name. Someone recognized the name and told that a friend of his had bought the boat from some frat boys in Rhode Island, and that it was completely filled with empty liquor bottles.

The moral of the story: God watches out for sailors and fools.


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## Overdue (Jun 14, 2021)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Yes. People can search back old posts and make a comment. Obviously it's fine in some threads. Others we close. 😊


Good to know!


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