# My newest project



## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

This is a new 43'er for a PNW client. The boat has twin diesels on sail drives. The builder is James Betts in Anacortes, WA. This is a custom project and what you see is what the client wants. But this image is a bit obsolete now. The hull ports have gone. The dink is off the housetop and the cabin trunk portlights are now all the same size. Details. Construction will be composite with epoxy.


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## justflie (Apr 10, 2012)

Looks very nice, Bob. Interesting customer request (I assume) to have the twin diesels on the monohull. Was the thought process enhanced maneuverability (saildrives would help, distance between screws would reduce moment arm though) or redundancy? Maybe it allows for two smaller diesels/less noise?


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Just:
The idea is reliability. The client thinks that "if it is mechanical, it will break". I'll
use two small diesels that I have not chosen yet. Maybe a Beta 20hp with counter rotating sail drives. We'll see. And just to poke the dog with a stick,,,we might do the entire boat in carbon fiber. We'll see. Why? Because the client likes the idea.


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## FirstCandC (Mar 26, 2013)

Awesome. I am guessing Mr. Lucky is ecstatic!


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## justflie (Apr 10, 2012)

Carbon fiber?! Wowzas. Hey, if I had that kind of cash, I would love to spend it on a boat as well. 

Doesn't your client know the boat has these white flappy things for when the engine breaks?  I understand the sentiment about the engines though, esp with sail drives. 

That will be quite the finished product, looking forward to seeing it.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Just/First:
Yes, Mr. Lucky is very happy with progress. His last boat was a Cape George cutter and when we began I showed him Atkin's TALLY HO MAJOR and his eyes lit up. All that was left for me to do was to channel Bill Atkin and add my own touches to try and "modernize" the aesthetic and the performance. Carbon add around $40,000 to the build. The client just shrugs.


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## single2coil (Apr 12, 2014)

The idea of composite is good news. The more we design it into our boats, the more it will enter our world. The price will reduce as the learning curve sets in. I have worked in the composite field for 20 years. Amazing product. The tooling brings the price up. 
Again great news, take the composite and go forward.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

At this stage we are looking at Janeki to produce female molds. Same thing we did with the PSC 63.


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## single2coil (Apr 12, 2014)

Bob, Janiki is a good group and they are close by to monitor progress and adjust quickly to minor (tiny) engineering changes. They were involved in the 787 build.


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## dorymate1 (Dec 6, 2011)

Would carbon make a difference with all that wetted surface?


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Coil:
I worked with Janeki before when we did the submarine for Paul Allen. They are only an hour away from me.

Dory:
Wetted surface has nothing to do with it. We do not need to save weight on this project. I have plenty of displacement for an S glass and epoxy laminate. But, as I have stated, the client likes the idea of carbon. It's best to keep in mind that with any custom design project the client gets what he wants. It may not be what you want or what makes sense to anyone else but it is his boat and he wants it to be very different from the current crop of production boats. I march to the client's drumming. When we disagree on a design element we discuss it in depth. If the clients' request does not hurt the boat's safety or hurt performance then I will let him win the argument. In this case the client wanted a "full keel" boats right from the start. Onions? Mayo? A pickle? My job is to give the client exactly the boat he sees in his imagination and to make sure it's a damn good boat and at the same time makes me happy and proud too.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Bob,


Handsome boat and a very interesting design. Its almost a very big and updated Bristol Channel Cutter. That is a very creative solution to protecting and supporting the bottom of the outboard rudder while being able to cut away the aft end of the keel. 

Jeff


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

Is there a name for that arrangement of keel and rudder? It looks unusual.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Minn:
Dion't know that there is a specific name for that kind of rudder attachment but I'll call it Albert.

It's been done before but not exactly like the way I have it.


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## ccriders (Jul 8, 2006)

Mr Perry,
Would you explain from a yacht design perspective the differences in these terms:
Composite
S glass
GRP
and carbon fiber.
It seems to me the cost differential between "carbon fiber" and "GRP" would be the fabric and that epoxy or bonding matrix would be about equal. I'm not an engineer and these terms get bandied about in a very confusing manner.
Thanks, hope you don't mind this request.
John


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

CC:
I'd rather JeffH answer your question. He knows his stuff and I can;t type worth a damn.
If Jeff doesn't answer it I'll do it.


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## Rhapsody-NS27 (Apr 8, 2012)

Bob, You did good with her. I'd love to see a picture of the finished boat.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Be patient Rhap. Boats like this don't pop out like Beneteaus. Sheesh!
Grumble grumble,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Yes, and of course I did "good with her". I have very high standards. I have worked very hard on this design to make it perfect in every way for the client. Of course I have done good. It's called "hard work" Sheesh and double sheesh.

I am at this stage when I know what's good. I am 68 and I have been at this seriously since I was 14. I'm very critical of my own work. You have no idea. But honestly, if you can't see the beauty in what I create then you have a piss poor frame of reference.

With that I'll go walk my dog. My dog knows exactly what I am talking about. She ignores me.
Smart dog.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

ccriders said:


> Mr Perry,
> Would you explain from a yacht design perspective the differences in these terms:
> Composite
> S glass
> ...


I'll answer the specific questions here.

Composite is a rather "loose" term. Strictly speaking any laminate of resin and solids is composite - ordinary fiberglass for example. The term though is generally understood and used to describe more sophisticated constructs such as Kevlar, carbon fiber and epoxy laminates or foam or balsa core laminates and so forth. WEST (wood epoxy saturation technique) is composite as well. Generally when the term is used, the implication is that the construction is much more sophisticated than normal.

S-glass is simply a higher grade of fiberglass fabric - E-glass is the basic glass, S-glass is the next step up.

GRP means Glass Reinforced Plastic - regular old fiberglass, also called FRP for Fiberglass Reinforced Plastic.

Carbon fiber in this context is another fabric used for laminating - much lighter and stronger (and more expensive) than glass.

Your comment about costs is spot on - epoxy is epoxy as far as material costs go. Where things get expensive is in how they are used - epoxy carbon pre-preg in an autoclave is a whole lot more costly than a guy in a mould with a roll of fabric and a pail of resin.

All this stuff is available via Google if you want more details.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

The number of times you reference "what the client wants" is troubling...

Is he stuck on some ideas you don't agree with?

My brother is a programmer and in programming they have "BOT tags" attaced to various programming functions. It stands for "The boss ordered this" and is there to help you explain yourself to another engineer who sees your work.

A little design conflict going on here or am I reading this wrong?

Medsailor

PS Nice to see you back here Bob. Thought we lost you to SA for a minute there.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Nauticat:
You are reading it wrong. No conflict at all. I think what you may be reading is my effort to make those not acquainted with custom design understand why this or any other custom design appears the way it does. I based my book on this theme. My work is a reflection of client requirements as filtered through my creativity. As I went to bed last night it occurred to me that my post was quite a rant. I did not start out intending it to be but I was tired an maybe some frustration came through. Sorry.

Thanks for the welcome back. Nice to be back.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

bobperry said:


> CC:
> I'd rather JeffH answer your question. He knows his stuff and I can;t type worth a damn.
> If Jeff doesn't answer it I'll do it.


Bob- Thank you for the vote of confidence.

I think that SloopJonB did a great job of explaining the terms that CCRiders was asking about. In basic engineering terms a composite is simply using dissimilar materials to create a unified structure that takes advantage of the characteristics of each material. As noted the term has been used in many ways in boat building such as wooden boats with metal frames in the late 19th & early 20th centuries, or FG or FG with metal framing.

In the case of an FRP laminate, as a composite material, the fabric/fibers handles all of the tensile loads, and the resin glues the fabric together, takes sheer between the layers and takes the vast majority of compressive loads.

I am not sure that it was clear from the write up that epoxy is a much more expensive resin than conventional polyester or vinylester resin and offers no real strength advantage when used with conventional E or S glass. High strength, low stretch fibers like carbon or Kevlar, require either epoxy or vinylester resin to fully utilize the strength advantages of these materials.

Epoxy does offer the advantage of near zero moisture permeability, which is especially important with carbon fiber which can be damaged by moisture intrusion due to electrolysis or corrosion. Then again vinylester offers similar though not as good strength and permeability characteristics at a less expensive cost, and offers a little better ductility.

Epoxy-Kevlar laminates have particularly higher resistance to abrasion than most laminates and a very good resistance to being punctured in an impact. Vinylester/Kevlar laminates also have very high impact resistance and are used to create bullet resistant military helmets. Vinylester/conventional glass are used for motorcycle helmets. Cored vinylester resin laminates offer the highest impact resistance and stiffness for the fiber involved also offering the added advantage of some sound and thermal insulation value.

Properly laminated the reduced flexure and fatigue of a cored hull offers the longest durable strength characteristics but the layup needs to be perfect. The poor layup and protection of the core on many early cored hulls have given them a bad rep.

Jeff


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Thanks Jon and Jeff.
The only thing I would add is that carbon fiber does not play well with others. You can't just reinforce a polyester/E glass laminate with carbon fiber for extra strength. Carbon does not "load share". In a situation where carbon was combined with E or S glass the carbon would take the entire load before the E or S glass ever saw any load at all.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Great writeup Jeff on the pros and cons of various laminates. Care to discuss the pros and cons of steel? 

Bwuhahaha!


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## sully75 (Jun 17, 2013)

Love the look Bob. I still don't get the carbon thing at all. Seems like it will be much more difficult to repair, with worse results. For zero benefit. I could see if it made the same boat, but for a displacement boat wouldn't the money be better spent on more glass, more resin?

I get the client part. But since we are talking. Doesn't carbon in this picture make a worse boat?


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Sully: 
Define "worse" for me please.


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

I'll take one please ;-)


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## ccriders (Jul 8, 2006)

Thanks for the tutorials. I understand more about composite construction than my post would imply, but asked anyway as I inferred from "carbon all around" and the follow on comments that people were talking about different things. I guess one could just substitute carbon fabric for glass fabric, but why would you for the hull of a boat? It seems to me that if you wished for something more better than GRP you would actually be talking as much about the structure of the laminate as you would the materials in the laminate. 
It also seems to me that the really big cost increases would be in the manufacturing processes used to optimize the materials so that all those factors like stiffness, compression, abrasion, weight, tensile strength, etc are made more better than GRP.
And that is why I asked the question from the yacht building focus. The demands on the designer/engineer would be considerable to just go "carbon all around", easier said than done. But wouldn't it be really cool to have a boat of this design done up full tilt state of the art composite?
Thanks
John


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

This is my design ICON, all carbon hull and an all carbon deck, built 15 years ago and still going very strong.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Freakin' cool.

If built in CF, will it be the first-ever CF full-keeler? That will be a very, very interesting study in performance!


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Smackers:
I think you are right. But the jury is still out on the material. S glass and epoxy might be a better way to go for durability and cost. Still, the client has this Jones for carbon and he is the boss. I'm waiting for him to show up at the shack now. We'll no doubt discuss this again. If he's happy with the layout I'll post it next week and give you guys a look at a real sea boat layout. He's already happy with the layout he's seen but I've moved on several revisions since he had his last look. I don't let him see the drawings until he's in my office. I need to make my full on dog and pony show presentation.


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## sully75 (Jun 17, 2013)

Bob: worse for me would be more difficult to modify, harder to repair with potentially worse result, much more expensive with little or no performance gain. That said I'm not a designer, customer or expert on carbon fiber. My understanding is that it's difficult to modify and repair.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

sully75 said:


> Bob: worse for me would be more difficult to modify, harder to repair with potentially worse result, much more expensive with little or no performance gain. That said I'm not a designer, customer or expert on carbon fiber. My understanding is that it's difficult to modify and repair.


Dude - why would you want to modify it? It's a Bob Perry design.

And why will you need to repair it? Do you hit stuff?


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## sully75 (Jun 17, 2013)

I actually have hit stuff. Yep. Still learning. Also I've seen other boats hit stuff and come off their moorings and get rammed and all kinds of stuff. I think pondering the future life of a cruising boat seems reasonable, no? Looks like an amazing boat, obviously. I just don't get the point of the carbon fiber. Free country.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

sully75 said:


> I actually have hit stuff. Yep. Still learning. Also I've seen other boats hit stuff and come off their moorings and get rammed and all kinds of stuff. I think pondering the future life of a cruising boat seems reasonable, no? Looks like an amazing boat, obviously. I just don't get the point of the carbon fiber. Free country.


It's really light. It's really strong. It's what the highest performing boats on the planet use. And it can be repaired...even when you run it up on a reef at 19 knots. Ask Nico.


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## sully75 (Jun 17, 2013)

When I hit stuff though, I was able to jam some glass and some 610 epoxy in the crack for a half assed repair job at anchor and it held tight for another 6 weeks to windward.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Then I think you're more concerned with boat repair than sailing. Different strokes.


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## sully75 (Jun 17, 2013)

Right but really light really strong material in a heavy boat doesn't seem to have much advantage.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

sully75 said:


> Right but really light really strong material in a heavy boat doesn't seem to have much advantage.


Then you're obviously missing the point. Later.


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## sully75 (Jun 17, 2013)

smackdaddy said:


> Then I think you're more concerned with boat repair than sailing. Different strokes.


Wait I thought boat repair was sailing? As I understood the design it's for a tough blue water cruiser. To me that implies being self sufficient in repair work. Anyway. I'm not the buyer. My boat is probably not worth the price of three winches on that boat. Just an observation.


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## sully75 (Jun 17, 2013)

smackdaddy said:


> Then you're obviously missing the point. Later.


I guess so.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

I'm lucky that I only have one client on this project and my job is to give him a great boat that meets his expectations. That's he heart and soul of custom design. This boat will be a fabulous boat made even more fabulous by the use of carbon fiber. It will be a unique boat.

I cannot imagine a time when this owner will do his own repair work.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

bobperry said:


> Thanks Jon and Jeff.
> The only thing I would add is that carbon fiber does not play well with others. You can't just reinforce a polyester/E glass laminate with carbon fiber for extra strength. Carbon does not "load share". In a situation where carbon was combined with E or S glass the carbon would take the entire load before the E or S glass ever saw any load at all.


I didn't know that carbon wouldn't share with the other kids - not that I'll ever need to know it. 

Biax glass and epoxy is about as exotic as I'll likely ever get. Well....there was that time I used some Q-cell foam core.


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## ccriders (Jul 8, 2006)

Sully,
When Trek Bicycles introduced their third generation carbon fiber bicycle they were getting some unfavorable press and uninformed back talk very negative about building a bicycle in carbon fiber, especially for mountain bikes where the crashing and bashing can get intense. The new frames weighed 2.4 pounds versus the 5.5 of high end steel and aluminum frames. So they invited a very influential magazine guy in for a tour of the factory, even the secret part. They showed him how they manufactured the frame, their test bed, all aspects of their operation and sent him home with one of the carbon fiber lugs. He took that lug down to,his basement workshop and attempted to destroy the lug by putting it in a vise and cutting twisting and hammering on it. He did eventually ruin the lug, but only after great effort and the use of enough force that had the lug been aluminum or steel would have been well gone in the first few blows. Now that was not much of a test bed, but it did prove to him that carbon fibers are not delicate structures even though they weight almost nothing. The Trek test bed put the frames through cyclic flexing where the wheel drop outs were captured and the the frame flexed to replicate riding on a rough road. After the millions of cycles that would have fatigued a steel or aluminum frame to failure, they left the machine going and after millions more flex cycles could find no failure of the carbon structure. So then they decided to go full tilt, increase the range of motion and the speed of the cycles until failure occurred. They wouldn't reveal that data, but consensus was that if you rode that bicycle through those cycles, you would be dead.
There was also a carbon fiber handle bar test by Easton (the aluminum people) that reported the same kind of data re carbon fiber strengths vs all other materials.
There was a time when GRP was exotic, not well understood and expensive. Boat builders were skeptical and continued the old ways until the old ways were just to compromised and too expensive. I personally would love to see the boat industry make the transition from GRP to composite construction using aramid and carbon fibers in a cored matrix that lets the designer put the strength where it needs to be, control weight distribution much more precisely and build boats that will plow down the dock with nary a scratch to the hull.
As to repair ability. You would use the same basic procedures that you use for fiberglass, you would just add knowledge of the composition of the structure being repaired. There is a you tube video on Paolo's interesting sailboat thread where you can see this being done.
Once the engineering issues are worked out and manufacturing processes developed, carbon fiber boats could be mass produced cost competitively with GRP, but it will take the turning of the tides for this to happen. Is the old rule of thumb still true that the hull is one third of the cost of a sailboat? If so, then the delta between GRP and carbon fiber will not be so large. Economies of scale can further reduce that.
Of course that doesn't help Mr. perry's client's pocketbook. But its great that he is considering a carbon all around boat.
John


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

About 21 years ago I bought my son a CF bike. It was unusual to even see a CF bike then. He test rode several bikes but liked the feel of the CF bike. Back then it was very expensive, $850! He rode it for about 15 years. He's a big kid, 6'5" and he rode that bike hard and was never able to break it. But, it was stolen a few years back. I'l find out what make it was.

When I met with my client yesterday I mentioned Smackdaddy's comment about the new boat being the first "full keel" CF boat in the world. My clients' eyes lit up. I'll meet with the builder and the client together on Thursday and we'll see where this leads. Should be a kick.


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

I bet that "unique" factor was just what he is after. 
Bob, I think the design is spectacular, but as you've pointed out, you know that. Still I think the intention was to complement, not to denigrate your experience. Happens when people unqualified to really assess your field want to express their appreciation. And your initial response is something we've all wanted to say in our own fields more than once. 
Wish I had the money to drop into a custom, but the 40K upgrade is more than I could justify for a boat at this point.


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## Cruiser2B (Jan 6, 2011)

Great looking drawing, cant wait to see the finished product


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Thanks Sean I think you are probably right. I know I seem arrogant at times but I think of it like this: Imagine Frank Sinatra in the shower (shower curtain closed please). He's singing away like we all do in the shower. I'll bet you Frank would say, "Damn I sound great!" And he did. Arrogant? Naaaaa. Accurate? Yep.

So I look at my work, after hours of struggling to get every line just perfect knowing I'll never get it perfect, and I think to myself, "Damn that looks good." And I know it does.

Cruiser: Thank you. I'll work hard to make the actual boat look even better. I do enjoy my work.


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## ccriders (Jul 8, 2006)

bobperry said:


> So I look at my work, after hours of struggling to get every line just perfect knowing I'll never get it perfect....


I think Yo Yo Ma said something just like that!
John


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

CC:
I can see that. He is amazing.
I have a cello. I am not amazing on the cello.

When you guys see a drawing of mine it is one of countless revisions. I throw most of them out before I even give them "Rev numbers" . They are just not worth saving. There are so many great designers I am trying to emulate and I hear their footsteps behind me all the time.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Having fun with the new project:


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Looks like Pacific Seacraft and I will be doing this model of their PSC 63 next. Spent a long time on Skype with significant parties this morning. Sounds like a go.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

If the forward chair in the upper salon could swivel and face forward and there was an inside steering station there, then I'd order hull #1. 

Beautiful looking boat. 

MedSailor

PS I'd probably spec a mizzen on there too before confirming my order of hull #1.


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## FirstCandC (Mar 26, 2013)

That last drawing is insane. I see they have Catari drawings on the PS site. Will this boat have a similar keel? Will they build it in Washington?


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Cutter rig cleans things up and makes life easier for me. Interior is custom so you can have any detail you like that fits. Keel will be the same as CATARI. Yes, it will be built at PSC in Washington NC, one of my very favorite places. Let the wild rumpus begin!


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## desert rat (Feb 14, 2013)

On your latest project (line drawing) what is the step like structure in the keel? lovely curves and lots of room inside.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Rat:
I think what you are seeing is the lines that indicate where I estimate the outside lead ballast will go. I won't know for sure until I have a weight study and that won;t be until we pin down the structural issues with laminates. But I'm am very good guesser and I am guessing that's about where my ballast will be. At this stage of the design, preliminary, we call things like that "place holders". In other words "There will be outside lead ballast and it will go about there and the be about that big." I'll refine it later when I know more about the boat. It's still a pup.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

bobperry said:


> When you guys see a drawing of mine it is one of countless revisions. I throw most of them out before I even give them "Rev numbers" . They are just not worth saving. There are so many great designers I am trying to emulate and I hear their footsteps behind me all the time.


Bob, 
I know the numbers must vary considerably from project to project.

How many hours will you have in design by the time the cruising cutter is done?

There are just so many small details on a yacht like this...

Jim


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

bobperry said:


> Let the *wild rumpus* begin!


Happens to be the name of this boat, which is local in Anacortes and often races agains ICON.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Jim:
Hard to say. My guess at this stage would be 700 hours including my helpers. I work with one very good sailor and navigator, Tim, on electrical systems and deck systems. I work with Jody Culbertson III on all the 3D modelling stuff. He's the best at it and I have never learned how to do it. Besides it's nice to have someone to talk to once and a while besides my dog. That's Jody's work you see in those early renderings I posted.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Med: I know that boat and my son's name is Max so I am very familiar with "Let the wild rumpus begin!" Must have read that book 100 times.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

The PSC 63 raised Saloon version.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

I've been gone from here for a while. Seems that things have gotten
very quiet here on SN.


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

There are a few grumpy shouters that seem to have driven people away from commenting in the last couple years. I think there are many people watching and absorbing, but not as much activity regarding new posts. Welcome back, though. I remember a few call outs to you asking for your opinion in threads that went unanswered due to your absence. Looking forward to once again reaping knowledge from one of the "greats".


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Thanks Sean. I'll do my best to contribute.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

bobperry said:


> I've been gone from here for a while. Seems that things have gotten
> very quiet here on SN.


I think it's just ebb and flow. I spent some time over on CF starting a couple of wildly popular threads and educating their moderation team on moderation. I got permabanned. So I'm back here.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Love the PSC raised saloon and find the one off a boat I wou trade for mine.
I might want a wind vane steering mechanism attached to that rudder. It would seem to be quite doable and would save electrons on passage.
Would opt for a Zdrive leg behind the keel and in front of the rudder hooked up to a hybrid drive. Then could get rid of the complications of a bow thruster and dock with ease in a cross wind as it could aliase and have enough power to not be overcome in a stiff breeze. 
You are my first phone call if I come into more lucre.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Out:
Forget the lucre. Just find some money!


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

bobperry said:


> I've been gone from here for a while. Seems that things have gotten
> very quiet here on SN.


Steel boats are better! I could build a better boat from s 
Crapyard parts! Where does the wood stove fit?

Better? 

Ps the typo above was too good to correct


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

I'm sure you could Med, but it would not be the boat we are after.

I understand that your post was a joke and I appreciate that.
Wood stove? I have a spot for it already.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

All BS jokes aside my first boat, a 31ft 
Lapstrake mahogany over steam-bent english oak framed Scottish lifeboat that was (poorly) converted into a sloop by Stan Huntingford had a wood stove that was wonderful. I currently eye myNC 40 and dream of putting in another wood stove. There's just something about a wood fire....


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

I have to admit I miss the old Swainster. My he Rust In Peace until his ban is lifted. Heh-heh.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Smackers:
That's very charitable for you to say. I don't miss him at all. 
May he rust in piece.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Be nice to get the builder of Waterlines or someone from Kanter on this site.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Out:
Why? Neither one would have anything to do with my newest project.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

MedSailor said:


> All BS jokes aside my first boat, a 31ft
> Lapstrake mahogany over steam-bent english oak framed Scottish lifeboat that was (poorly) converted into a sloop by Stan Huntingford had a wood stove that was wonderful. I currently eye myNC 40 and dream of putting in another wood stove. There's just something about a wood fire....


You don't have one in the sauna? That's not heated by electricity is it?


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## Knots2U (Dec 24, 2009)

Bob...I'm curious about why there's a typical gap for a prop between the keel and rudder when you are using twin saildrives. If the keel extended back to the rudder then there'd be no need for the reinforcing strut to the bottom end of the rudder. Is it better for hydro dynamics to have the rudder in "free" water?


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

Knots2U said:


> Bob...I'm curious about why there's a typical gap for a prop between the keel and rudder when you are using twin saildrives. If the keel extended back to the rudder then there'd be no need for the reinforcing strut to the bottom end of the rudder. Is it better for hydro dynamics to have the rudder in "free" water?


Actually I was about to ask almost the same question. Why such a large squared off aperture? I really like the above waterline look, but I can't wrap my head around the very deep modified full keel with that big aperture. Looks, well for lack of other words a bit odd. Perhaps because I have not seen anything like it. I am sure there is good reason for it and am not doubting your decisions. Just trying to understand it.

OH and you have been missed here. I enjoy your posts as you hold no punches.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Miata:
I think you are right. It looks odd because you have not seen it before. To my eye it looks just right. If it did not I would have changed it before ever showing it to anyone! Simple as that. The keel treatment is the product of the client's wishes for a full keel and my wishes for a keel that works. The client also wanted a transom hung rudder. I wanted a rudder with some balance area to it for a more gentle helm feel. This way I can have all the balance area I need in the rudder and hopefully, as Knots says, get some clean flow to it. It's OK that it looks odd to you now. It's quite different. In time I think it will look just fine to you.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Agreed nothing to do with this thread. But the SN site might benefit. Curious about CF for a cruising boat. Understand it for race boats or cruiser racers ( whatever they are) but not for a beautiful sea boat meant to travel for years to come. Would think aramid/epoxy might do better surviving the bumps and lumps a cruiser is exposed to in the day to day of its life or am I exposing my ignorance?
Is the same weight loss program going to be employed on the interior?


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

So, am I understanding it correctly that the large "aperture" will help support and balance the rudder with no other benefit or penalty reerformance? And could you explain how it balances the rudder better. I readily admit I'm not understanding the fluid dynamics of that in this case. I sort f thought that the double sail drives were going to be in the aperture.


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

Ignore that icon. It was a colon and a p. Stupid emoticon programming language.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Out:
No plywood anywhere in this boat. All cored panels with E glass skins.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Sean:
You need to buy my book. It's all in the book. You are obviously confused about the term "rudder balance". That is the rudder blade area forward of the stock centerline. Got it? Almost al good rudders, spade types, have some balance area to them. Sometimes as much as 17%. I use 15% most of the time. I eyeball it so it looks right to me and calculate it later.


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

Got it. Had heard the term, but I deal in hemodynamics, where balance has a different meaning altogether, but is often very similar in other ways.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Personally,I really like the underbody and appendenages of this boat. However as stated above would do a single prop. Get the advantages of a balanced spade rudder. Neither is rudder post canted so far forward as to create difficulties. You also have the advantage of no hull piercing and with the bottom support a massively strong transom hung rudder. In short ingenious with form following function.
Be perfect with a vane and a tiller of laminated wood you could swing up in harbor. Have short arm off it below the seat to attach the AP.
Unlike shedge bottom attachment actually adds to strength. Cut out belies a wetted surface penalty. Integral bulb gives excellent righting arm.
In short another example of an artist at work.


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

Was I correct in the aux location?


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Sean:
Hemodynamics? I'm afraid to even ask,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

No you were not quite right. The sail drive location fore and aft has nothing to do with the gap. There are a few details pressuring the sail drive location. It is not resolved yet but it will have more to do with the arrangement of the engine space than the location of the gap. As now drawn it is very close. I think.


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

I was wondering that if the point was redundancy in case of failure if the sail drives might go inline in the aperture, essentially replacing the area that lacks the Brewer Bite due to the full keel request.


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

Congenital Cardiologist. Fluid dynamics of blood very similar but with different viscosity to both air and water. But very different application and I realize it doesn't always translate well. So I ask stupid questions occasionally to learn. Unfortunately we don't get paid like stockbrokers, so the chances I'll ever own a boat you design for me is nil.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Sean:
There are not many "stupid" questions. Stupid people are too stupid to know what to ask. They think they already know. I have found over the years that the "stupid" questions are the ones that most people have. When I give a yacht club talk I have found that its usually the women who as these questions. They are not concerned with looking stupid. I have also discovered that the harder I work at providing answers the better I understand what I a doing.


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

I teach med students and residents and often tell them something similar, but unfortunately many people don't feel that way.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

? Are those butterfly hatches? Love the look of butterfly hatches. Good lord shined on me. When I had the Tayana mine never leaked.


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## knuterikt (Aug 7, 2006)

Nice boat, classic looking but at the same time inovation.

Why stop the cabin aft of the mast and then a raised companionway on the fore deck. I know they used to design wooden boats like this to get continuous deck beams to support the mast- but with modern materials that's not the reason?


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## paul323 (Mar 13, 2010)

It's not often I see a sailboat that makes me catch my breath. Like seeing an outrageously beautiful woman (sorry, sounds sexist, but not intended as such). Heart in mouth, difficulty breathing...

Bob, you make beautiful boats. Not only eyecatching - they have a unique ability to "feel" right. Look at those lines, the hull...wow. Thank you for sharing!


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

miatapaul said:


> You don't have one in the sauna? That's not heated by electricity is it?


Ooooohhhhh.....

You no not what you have just started!


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Thanks Paul. Nice of you to say so. We are only just beginning on this one. I need to fix that fwd. trunk. It needs more camber.


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

Bob, what is the purpose of the forward trunk rather than a continuous house? Cosmetic to meet customer or your ideal or some other structural reason we are missing? I love the lines and find the thought process of this developing quite interesting.


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## capttb (Dec 13, 2003)

> There are a few details pressuring the sail drive location. It is not resolved yet but it will have more to do with the arrangement of the engine space than the location of the gap.


The sail drives will be in the gap, side by side, on each side of centerline then ? I've been thinking about this for awhile, seems like it forces engine location aft ?


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Not really Capt. Engine location and keel "gap" have nothing to do with each other. Two very different concerns. I can't lie to you and tell you I have it totally figured out yet but after 55 years of thinking about this stuff and designing lots of boats I have come to believe in the seat of my pants. They are seldom wrong.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Sean: Forward trunk is just part of the aesthetic package we are after. Google the Atkins boat TALLY HO MAJOR. That's the look I am after.


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

TALLY HO MAJOR:


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Barq:
Yep, that's the boat although I have a far better example of the design in my own backyard, WILD GOOSE. My client is not keen on the stepped aft house.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Big meeting with all involved parties. Build will start as soon as possible on a series of four of these cutters. They are not for sale. They are not going into charter.


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## BennyBayman (Feb 10, 2015)

Wow, just love the look Bob. I'll take a 46' version!


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

Bob: how many boats do you design in a typical year?


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Benny:
Thanks a lot.
No problem. Make the check out to Bob Perry.

stern:
Don't know. Never figured that out. These days I'd say three a year. Back 20 years it was probably more like eight. But then I had a staff working with me. Now it's me, the cat and the dog. It doesn't take much to keep me very busy.


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

I agree regarding the stepped aft house. Much cleaner look to your design. The cutters all going to single owners or is someone building a Perry armada?


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

97:The boats will all go to one owner for a family "armada". Unusual? Yes it is.


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

But wicked cool. Are they going to colour code them?


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

SloopJonB said:


> I didn't know that carbon wouldn't share with the other kids - not that I'll ever need to know it.


The underlying issue is, I believe, modulus of elasticity. The carbon fiber is so much stiffer than the glass that it takes all the load.



MedSailor said:


> If the forward chair in the upper salon could swivel and face forward and there was an inside steering station there....


That was my first reaction. *grin* Bob would have to work heights and visibility.



bobperry said:


> I think you are right. It looks odd because you have not seen it before. To my eye it looks just right. If it did not I would have changed it before ever showing it to anyone! Simple as that. The keel treatment is the product of the client's wishes for a full keel and my wishes for a keel that works. The client also wanted a transom hung rudder. I wanted a rudder with some balance area to it for a more gentle helm feel. This way I can have all the balance area I need in the rudder and hopefully, as Knots says, get some clean flow to it. It's OK that it looks odd to you now. It's quite different. In time I think it will look just fine to you.


I think it looks pretty cool. I suspect it will improve backing performance over an attached rudder as well.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Sean: No idea. Doubt it.


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

Can have some interesting family 'one design' races, however.


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

bobperry said:


> stern:
> Don't know. Never figured that out. These days I'd say three a year. Back 20 years it was probably more like eight. But then I had a staff working with me. Now it's me, the cat and the dog. It doesn't take much to keep me very busy.


Thanks Bob. I've always been curious about the design process, which is why I am a fan of your Sailing column and why I find your participation here so compelling.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Thanks Stern.
Stop by some time.


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

Thanks Bob! I was out in the Seattle area a few years ago on vacation with the family, and we had a ball. Shouldn't be too hard to convince the Mrs. that there is more to see and it's worth another trip.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Here is another look as the design progresses through the preliminary stages.


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## ccriders (Jul 8, 2006)

Would you mind helping me "read the lines"? 
What I see is a nice V leading back to the mast station. The hull flattens out aft of the mast at the main cabin and then makes another V leading into the rudder. So, nice entry to avoid pounding and directional stability coupled with increased form stability mid ships.
Im sure there must be many many more elements. Maybe I should have signed up for those yacht architecture classes that used to be advertised inside a pack of matches.
Thanks,
John


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

John:
You should call me. I'll explain. I can tell you are working hard at understanding this. A few minutes on the phone might sort it out for you. I can't type worth a ,,,,


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Will the boat(s) have a bow thruster? Wonder if forward on one and reverse on the other would serve?. Know some dual screw power boats still have one. Is it necessary due to the lateral plane from the keel?
From prior picture seemed boat at a bulb on the bottom of the keel. On the drawing don't have that impression. Maybe need new glasses.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

No bow thruster. If there was a bow thruster you would see it on the drawings. It has been discussed and may be discussed again. We are early in the design stage and have a lot of time to revisit some of these components. The clients buddy has a V-40 with thruster and he came by yesterday and was raving about how much he loved it.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)




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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Jody and I are having some fun trying to come up with an elegant way to do the rudder gudgeons and pintels while taking advantage of the carbon fiber. I want something clean and snug to the transom.


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## scubadoo (Apr 5, 2014)

Has your client seen the Harken carbon fiber catalog?


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Doo:
I am working with Don Whelan at Harken for all the deck gear. I am picking it out. I think for now I'll stay with as much s.s. as I can so we match hatches and ports. I am not at all concerned about saving weight with the hardware. I have 35,000 lbs. of boat here.


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

Off topic- but just checked out your website for the first time. One, can't tell you how sorry I am about Spike. As someone that deals with life and death of children on a daily basis, my heart goes out to you guys.
Second-what a collection of spectacular boats, with one of my personal favorites in the Tayana 37 (I had somehow forgotten you designed that one).

On topic- the saildrives on this one- if one fails, will the offset nature of them cause significant slip or pivot with only one that far off the centerline? Would that make control under power harder, particularly in narrower confines like a channel?


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

97:
Thanks. I deal with Spike's death daily.

The client wants twin engines for reliability. My intent is to have them aid in maneuvering but just much an aid they will be I don't know because I have never done a twin engine sailboat before. We'll just have to see. Sometimes you have to be bold. I am very optimistic. I have great faith in the seat of my pants.


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## Bill-Rangatira (Dec 17, 2006)

just a quick idea might be way off base but could you put two drive in line instead ie on prop near keel like a shaft drive and the saildrive aft of that?


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

White- similar to the idea I had had. I think Bob's placement is more elegant and more useful if they are both working, but if the issue is redundancy, then the asymmetrical placement that would be resulting from single engine failure would exacerbate prop walk and sideslip while underway. I think you'd still be able to limp home, but potentially not as well as if they were inline, which seems to Mr. Lucky's issue. Admittedly the full keel will help to minimize, but won't eliminate those issues. Couldn't tell, Bob- dual fuel tanks isolated from one another?


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

Bob,

Do I see twin back stays? I've read a lot of negative about them, yet we have them on our big boat.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

White:
Yes, that could be done and we would be happy top build one like that fr you. For now I am doing what my client likes.

97:
Fuel tanks are Fuel Cells, custom molded to fit into the keel cavity between the floors. Trying to keel the weight as low as I can.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Yes, twin backstays. I have done them many times with zero problems.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Somebody asked if the boat would drag its transom when heeled. No, at 25 degs of heel the transom is still well clear of the water.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Here is a view at 30 degs heel and you can see the transom is just starting to immerse a small section. I think the boat will not be sailed much past 25 degs so this is fine with me. At the speed the boat would be going to get to that heel angle this is not a problem.

This contour lines you see are waterlines parallel to the water surface at this heel angle.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Bob,

Did I not see a thread a week or so ago, re a puget sound 44, ie the perfect boat for...... Now I can not find it. Looked like a kewl boat.......

Marty


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Marty:
That thread is over on SA on the CA forum. Be very careful if you go there. There are no moderators to watch out for you there.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Finally found it again. 

I have a sign in over there, just do not post much. I will look for local race info more than anything, then sometimes find something interesting to look at. a bit rougher than my taste from how folks post.

Marty


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Marty:
I like it on SA. That's how most of my friends act. We do not need moderating. We self moderate.


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

Fuel Cells meaning electric? Surely not hydrogen or LNG? Sorry, probably some lingo I'm missing. If they are custom molded for petrol (of whatever variety- gas, diesel, airplane or whatever) are they going to be pooled or isolated from one another? I'd say bad gas is the number one cause of engine failure I've heard of among the boaters I've talked to, and I'd want them separate if I was as concerned about redundancy as Lucky seems to be.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

97: 
Heck no! These are Fuel Cell tanks like the ones used in racing cars. They are JUST TANKS. They can be custom made to any shape or size and are very reliable. They have nothing to do with the "fuel cells" you are thinking of. Sorry for the confusion. Must have had you thinking for a while.


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

With all the high end shtuff you've been doing I thought it might have been a possibility. Hell, for all I know, you're building these for the Tesla guy (seems about right for the cost of a carbon fibre Perry Armada), but I would have found it VERY interesting if someone was willing to risk blowing them up by putting dual pressurized bombs in the bilge (and even more if you let them).
But very rich (and presumably intelligent) people have done stupider things.
So- Separate with ability to mix, then?


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Not the Tesla guy. I just call him 'Mr. Lucky".


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

I had fun at work today.


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## nemier (Jul 9, 2005)

Hi Bob,
Interior drawings ready yet?


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Here is a preliminary layout but the actual layout has not changed.


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## nemier (Jul 9, 2005)

Wow! classic BCC, and yet unique. + 1! That's a big boat!


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Bob,

Why have the chart table set so the navigator os facing to starboard? I'm used to seeing tables facing forward and would imagine that would be less fatiguing to sit at on either tack. 

Medsailor


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Med:
And exactly what would you give up for that? Nice suggestion. Now think it through and decide what you would sacrifice. This is what I have to do all the time.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Nemier:
I don't see it as a BBC at all. Too different all over.I think of it more out of the Atkin tradition of American designs. But you may be able to make an argument that Atkin's work did lean a bit on the BBC type. I'll admit the "cosmetics" are similar.


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## nemier (Jul 9, 2005)

Oh there's no doubt you were channeling Atkin alright. 
Btw, I like the carbon idea, and the twin engine thing is growing on me. I've been thinking about Mr. Lucky's boat all day. Have you thought more about engine manu, HP & tankage?


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Nems: I have to have all those things constantly in sight. There is 300 gals of fuel in two tanks in the keel. Go back a few posts and I cover this in detail. 38 HP per engine.
The engines are Yanmar 3JH5CE with sail drives. You should review the thread. It seems there are some details you have missed that will help you understand the project. I'm such a piss poor typist I hate having to type things twice.


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## Siamese (May 9, 2007)

Bob, it's great that you're motivated to hang in the Sailnet forum and discuss your projects. Gives us recreational types an interesting insight.

What can you do about getting Eric Clapton to hang out in the Fender Stratocaster forum?


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Siam:
I hang out on these sights because it's how I promote my work. Simple as that. I am advertising what I do for a living. Imagine that. It's also fun and I work alone in a remote area and I like to at least pretend I have kind of a social life.

Not sure Eric needs any more promotion. I have two EC Strats and I can't see buying a third. I'm sold.


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## jerryrlitton (Oct 14, 2002)

bobperry said:


> 97:
> Thanks. I deal with Spike's death daily.
> 
> The client wants twin engines for reliability. My intent is to have them aid in maneuvering but just much an aid they will be I don't know because I have never done a twin engine sailboat before. We'll just have to see. Sometimes you have to be bold. I am very optimistic. I have great faith in the seat of my pants.


Something to think about. Two engines side by side driving one gearbox. Each input has a sprag clutch so that engine disengages if it fails leaving the remaining engine to drive a centerline prop. Advantage would be no asymmetrical thrust. Disadvantage would be no asymmetrical thrust if you wish it. We use this system on the Bell 212/412 helicopters. pratt and witney twin pac pictures


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Jerry: I think we have a far better arrangement as is with the ability to use "tractor drive: for low speed maneuverability. But thank you very much for contributing an idea.


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## jerryrlitton (Oct 14, 2002)

you are welcome Bob. However if you heart is set as is you can still (through a central gearbox) have one engine (or two) have the ability to drive two props. If price was not much of a consideration you can do what the Chinook or tilt rotor designs use. Sorry about the helicopter references but is is all I know. Just the ultimate back up.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

I rode in a helicopter once. Made my nose itch.

The thing is Jerry that we WANT two props and we WANT two engines. That's why the design is presented that way. We feel there are several advantages to the arrangement we have. If a detail like this were still up in the air I would in no way be ready to send my design out to meet the public. But I find if I get one good idea from every ten presented to me than I am doing just fine. I work by myself. It's nice to get some feedback.


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## jerryrlitton (Oct 14, 2002)

bobperry said:


> I rode in a helicopter once. Made my nose itch.
> 
> The thing is Jerry that we WANT two props and we WANT two engines. That's why the design is presented that way. We feel there are several advantages to the arrangement we have. If a detail like this were still up in the air I would in no way be ready to send my design out to meet the public. But I find if I get one good idea from every ten presented to me than I am doing just fine. I work by myself. It's nice to get some feedback.


Yes I know. Two props. Two engines BUT with my way you can still drive both props IF one engine failed. No asymmetrical thrust problems. Can your way do that?


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

No Jerry. We can't do that. Although with 38 ho per engine one engine should be easily able to drive the boat to hull speed in calm conditions. In a breeze we have sails for that job. I'd like to keep system complexity to a minimum.

Can you provide a rough schematic for your proposed system. I'd like to see it. I'm very visual.


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

The ganging of engines is quite common.Landing craft and tanks often had two 671 gmc's (Gray Marine ) driving a single shaft. Bigger vessels used a more complex gear box holding 4 screaming jimmies. Uncoupling one on the run was easy but you weren't hanging by a Jeesus pin when all shut down. Matter of priorities and drifting is more cost effective than other options .Diesel electric coupling solves the issue of ability to drive either shaft with either engine .Not a helicopter mechanic but sure would like to get in there and look about. Bob, could your expound a bit about 'tractor drive. Does this mean swivelling the unit like aizmuth on a booming boat (logging)


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Len:
I meant one engine in forward and the other in reverse for tight maneuvers. The key here is simplicity, Say it as many times as you need to get it. I do not want any complex systems on this boat. Twin engines is complex enough.


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

Thanks for clearing that up, Bob . Been operating vessels for some time now; engineless, yulou,single engine and dual. Even azimuth drive on boom boat ,on several oceans. Since I'm usually the guy with the wrench too, I can appreciate the beauty of simplicity .As a matter of fact I can see simple all around me and appreciate your desire to keep it so .Now, about a balanced rudder?


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Len:
Look at the drawing. The rudder is highly balanced, as much as I have ever balanced a rudder. It seems to me that it's clear (I guess not) that one of the reasons fore the "gap" at the aft end of the keel is so that I was free to add balance to the rudder as opposed to have it unbalanced ,hanging off a keel.


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

Wasn't suggesting the drawings aren't clear or that I can't read them. Appreciate your comments about your thoughts in designing the rudder as shown and reasons why.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Len:
You ended your post with: "Now, about a balanced rudder?"

I am simply saying that the drawings have shown a balanced rudder since day one. it was always part of my vision for this design. Rudder is designed specifically so it can be balanced. Not sure what else I can say. Here is an early image, strut has been modified rudder has stayed the same.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Speaking of balanced rudders, would it be possible to have a balanced rudder on a traditional skeg by having the stock not at the leading edge of the rudder? Seems like you could do so but I can't say I've ever seen it done. Usually the rudder stock is at the leading edge of the rudder and then, immediately forward of the stock is the skeg. I wonder why this isn't done more often. My nauticat has some area that is below, and forward of the stock, which I presume is for balance, but that's the closest I've seen to a balanced skeg "protected" rudder.

MedSailor

PS I love the Luckmaninoff name.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

I think you could do that but I'd be concerned with mucking up the flow at the leading edge of the rudder. That's the important place.

I try to remember to take my client's name off drawings before I post them. I usually go with "Mr. Lucky" but at that moment I was listening to Rachmaninoff's piano concerto 3 and "Luckmaninoff" popped into my head.

By the way, as of an hour ago the twin engines are out. And that's all I'll say about that.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

bobperry said:


> By the way, as of an hour ago the twin engines are out. And that's all I'll say about that.


You mean it's going to have 3 engines??!! Wow! Sweet! 

MedSailor


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Very funny Med.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

By no means am I suggesting this as appropriate for Bob's project - those decisions are his and his client's. 

Redundancy and reliability concerns are usually greatest on internal combustion engines. One interesting approach that has been taken on ships is to use diesel-electric systems. A number of identical diesel-generators can be ganged together for propulsion or run individually for electrical power. You get a lot of benefits in maintenance and repair.

I'm not sure it scales down to recreational boats very well, but it is--I think--interesting to consider. Four small 25 HP engines might provide a lot of interesting flexibility feeding one electric motor, a battery charger, etc.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

bobperry said:


> But I find if I get one good idea from every ten presented to me than I am doing just fine. I work by myself. It's nice to get some feedback.


One in ten? Kinda long odds but I'll; give it a go. I like these inline hybrids. I've corrosponded with the owner of the company a few times and his product looks pretty good to me. A regular ol' diesel when you want it to be, a diesel generator when you want it to be one, and an electric drive to get you home (or motorsail silently) when you want it to be.

Seagoing Hybrids - Hybrid Electric Marine Propulsion

MedSailor


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

With the space we have available four 25 ho engines what leave room to move.
Four little engines
four little exhaust systems
etc


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

bobperry said:


> With the space we have available four 25 ho engines what leave room to move.
> Four little engines
> four little exhaust systems
> etc


I agree with you Bob - as I said I don't think it scales down. It is interesting to think about....


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## Gadagirl (Apr 4, 2008)

Any updates to the project? As a drafter I am kinda a Jody Culbertson III groupie now. Sorry Bob  Can you post the latest revisions for me?


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Gada:
I don't spend much time here. The climate doesn't suit me. But if you go to Sailing Anarchy you will find some of the latest images. I keep SA pretty up to date on the project. Yes, Jody is very good at modelling my design work. I'm a fan of Jody's work also. That's why I use him. He, on vacation now so there won't be anything new for a few days. But I think you will find on SA a lot you have not seen here.


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

MedSailor said:


> One in ten? Kinda long odds but I'll; give it a go. I like these inline hybrids. I've corrosponded with the owner of the company a few times and his product looks pretty good to me. A regular ol' diesel when you want it to be, a diesel generator when you want it to be one, and an electric drive to get you home (or motorsail silently) when you want it to be.
> 
> Seagoing Hybrids - Hybrid Electric Marine Propulsion
> 
> MedSailor


Interesting balance here between added complexity and redundancy. While I generally view (auto) hybrids as a needless complication with limited benefits, Marine hybrids can be a truly redundant system, with everything properly maintained the chance of (all) breaking at the same time is less.
The early Battery Keels didn't seem to catch on as I suspected they wouldn't.
So clearly managing the Battery weight will always be a design consideration.

Sorry Bob this thread is yours I just felt a comment coming on.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Brazzi:
I don't "own" any threads, certainly not here. Comments on my projects are always, always appreciated.In this specific case the client is after reliability and simplicity. The choice of a hybrid installation was discussed and abandoned. The twin engine idea was dropped due to space constraints in the engine area. We are now going with a single CR Yanmar 57 hp diesel with sail drive.


The build started this week so we are all quite excited to see this four boat project truly get underway.


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## Cruiser2B (Jan 6, 2011)

bobperry said:


> The build started this week so we are all quite excited to see this four boat project truly get underway.


Beautiful!


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

2B:
Thank you. I'm very proud of this interesting design. It has given me the chance to put a lot of what I have learned the past 53 years to work. It's a combo of aesthetics and technology. I think it will be the very first yacht of this style and type to be built in all Carbon fiber. I'll post photos of the build from time to time. Frames should start going up next week. Builder is one hour away from my shack so I plan to be there a lot.


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## sailak (Apr 15, 2007)

What is the purpose/function of the winglets on the rudder?


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Sailak:
Those are a work in progress. The idea is threefold:
They will help keep flow attached for good control in terminal conditions.
They will help keep the stern from squatting under power at hull speed.
They will work like steps for emergency boarding.

Now the trick is to choose the right size, the right shape and the right angle of incidence.
Easy peasy.


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## harmonic (Sep 10, 2013)

would the winglets help stop the boat pitching as well ?


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Harm:
hey are too small to have any effect on that, I think. They'd help in some small way.


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## copacabana (Oct 1, 2007)

Bob, another beautiful boat! Congratulations!! I'm curious about the same owner building 4 of them though. What's he going to do with the other 3? (I'll take one off his hands!!)


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Bob 
I don't see how you can use winglets on a rudder with a raked rudder post without generating excessive drag due to the change in incident angle to the water flow as the rudder steering angle changes. To explain my thinking on this, assuming that the winglets could be designed to have an angle of attack which minimized drag with the rudder on center, as the rudder rotatated the aft edge of the winglet would become higher relative to the foward edge of the winglet, increasing angle of attack and greatly increasing drag an turbulence.

It would be different if the rudder post were vertical but envelope if the post were verticle the attack angle would change simply due to heel angle and leeway since the flow over the rudder assumes a larger vertical component with increased heel and side forces.

Respectfully, 
Jeff


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Copa:
Yes, all four boats will be owned by the client and given to his family who are dispersed.
It is an unusual situation but from my perspective and very nice one. You don't get jobs like this often. This would be my first.

Jeff:
To begin with you are talking about angle of attack and not "angle of incidence". The angle of incidence has zero to do with the water flow and everything to do with the body which the "wings" are attached. They are two very different things. You are confusing them.
I will proceed thinking this can be solved in a successful manner. If I listened to all the nay sayers there would never have been a Valiant 40 and I would be struggling today. You make progress in this business but not listening to the nay sayers. I am not a "follower". Never will be.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Working on bowsprit and platform details. These shots give a nice view of the shapely entry.


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

Might I inquire as to sale price on one of these? Given the boat porn that Killarneysailor just put up, I'm curious.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

78:
Depending on how you finish the boat maybe a bit less the $1,000,000. The first four boats are being built "time and materials" so we don't have a price yet and won't until we have finished one boat but we think around $750,00 without rig, sails or electronics. First four boats are all spoken for. My client will take all four for himself and his family. It is an unusual situation but I like it.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

Will they ever get out and grace the open seas? Keep running into your older designs on the water in far flung places. Will the new generation be out voyaging?


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## desert rat (Feb 14, 2013)

This latest picture is not the hull is it? It is how to build the plug for the hull. That plywood does not look very strong or much like carbon laminate hull, and all that square iron tubing would not be good for the compass. 

Sorry bob my sense of humor is really twisted.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Rat:
No problem. Good to see you.
What you are looking at in those pics is the framework, half of it, for the hull plug. This WILL NOT, be a boat, just a plug for us to use to laminate the hulls over. We need a strong male plug that we can pull four hulls off.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

60:
That's not my call. I just design them. It's up to the client do do whatever he wants with his boats. In this case the plan has always been for the first two to sail to New Zealand where the client's son and daughter live. Nobody has indicated a change in that plan yet.

Got an email from Valiant owner last week. He was leaving Phuket. He said there were 50 yachts in the harbor and ten of them were mine. That makes me feel good.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

My 45'er for the Swedish client is now a go with a German yard. The fun is about to begin,,,,again.


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## desert rat (Feb 14, 2013)

Woah!! Now that is beautiful. Beauty is in the function.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Thanks Rat. I like my boats to be pretty or handsome.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Work on the plug for my four Carbon Fiber Cutters continues.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Just goes to show, no matter how much wood is put down as a choice it's still the best material for building the plug (form) ! 
Love it Bob!


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Denise: Thanks. Yes, that planking is Poplar. The frames are Chilean fir plywood . You can drive a screw into the end grain of that plywood.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Bob! a question, is that how my Oday would have been made with it's encapsulated keel?

I gave away my 15ft one off form for the last wood canvas canoe we built Bob. I don't think the shop that got it will ever use it. (phila wooden boat factory) they teach inner city kids about boat building.

the similarities stay true whatever the size


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Denise: I doubt it. The plug may have been made in a similar manner but I'm sure your boat came out of a female mold. That would be the "normal" way to build a high production boat. In this case we are using carbon fiber and only building four boats. Carbon works best draped over a male plug. All my production boats have been built with female molds. This is an unusual project. i.e. four boats for one owner, estimated cost $1,000,000 per boat.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Oh yes that would be true of production boats Bob. 
I love this kind of stuff! Should have been born into one of the famous boat building families!


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## AlaskaMC (Aug 19, 2010)

Hey Bob,

Absolutely beautiful projects once again! Thank for taking the time to post them for folks to see. 
I will be spending much time down your way soon and it would sure be fun to see these being built. Does PSC allow tours or is work on this kinda project confidential?

Great to see everyone again. Been away myself.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

MC:
Seems you are a bit confused.
I have a 63' ketch being built at PSC in North Carolina. Yes, they would show you around.

The four carbon cutters are being built in Anacortes at the Jim Betts yard and I'm sure they would also show you around. If not, I'll meet you there ad I'll show you around. But these are two distinct projects at two distinct yards.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Bob- before ordering my boat wandered around looking at various techniques and materials for boat building. In those travels went to Covey island in lundenburg, NEB and small plank on frame shops. Was struck by the beauty and apparent strength of strip plank with cold molded and then outer layer of aramid. Given most of us only have experienced solid grp or cored grp have often wondered how a skilled N.A. thinks about and rates currently available materials and methods. ? Are exotics worth the money for mom and pop cruisers? For voyagers? For high latitude sailors? For lives boards? Why is Al an increasingly a European thing other than Kanter? Is wood still an viable material for new construction?
Any response extensive or limited would be greatly appreciated.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Out:
I raced on FRANCIS LEE yesterday. Francis is a 63' strip planked Western Red cedar hull with a composite deck. There is not reason you cannot build a modern boat with wood. Good alu yards are getting hard to find. I am working now with a very good one, Jim Betts.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Wild horses still looks sweet. One of the wonderful things about your designs. Still look fresh decades later.
Diplomatic answer as well .


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Thanks Out. You can say that. I can't but as a kid I remember exactly where I was standing when I thought, " I want my boats to still look good when they are old and not in the best condition." WILD HORSES is in great condition and still looks very good to my eye.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Work proceeds. Lots of small details to resolve now.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Bob, a dumb question,
For boats laid up on a male plug, how do you "Fair" the outside without accidentally sanding into cloth underneath?


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

George:
Good question. Jim Betts uses three different primer colors. These are applied in layers so that as you fair you see which color you are invading. This way you have a warning before getting to the carbon fiber.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Then they long board it with some sort of longboard (power) sander? With the various color layers, I'm guessing that as soon as they cut through a layer, they are applying fairing compound and "moving on"?


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

George:
I think they fair using both long boards and a big square sanding pad machine depending on how deep into the fairing compound they are. I'm certain all the final sanding will be with longboards. I'll find out when I am up there next and report back to you. Every builder has his own way of dong it. Maybe if I time my visit right I can get some photos of the process.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

bobperry said:


> George:
> Good question. Jim Betts uses three different primer colors. These are applied in layers so that as you fair you see which color you are invading. This way you have a warning before getting to the carbon fiber.


I like that idea, and could see using it on a few projects(non marine as well). I will have to put in a mental note.


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

Its an age old body fender trick dusting to see high spots, and lots of guys who want 2 years on their bottom paint will do a contrasting color so they know when its "time". One of the coolest custom paint Jobs I have ever seen was by sanding randomly through contrasting colors. But I digress.

Beautiful hull Bob.


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## CharlzO (Nov 12, 2013)

Just think, once they're removed from the plug, you could take it, glass over all the wood and have a 5th to play with! 

That mostly-joking statement aside, it's a gorgeous craft to follow in the footsteps of your successes, and it's truly wonderful to watch your designs take life. Thank you greatly for allowing us to ride along the journey.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Brazzi:
Thank you. It's kind of like Chinese lacquer "painting". Where they cut through the different colors ( red and black).

I'll tell you a story
Many years ago on a trip to Taiwan a client gave me a lacquer painting all nicely frames. It was about 15" by 20" and heavy. I didn't like it and I sure did not like carrying it around. When I got to Hong Kong I gave it to my room boy at the hotel. He was amazed that I was giving it to him and he made me write out a note saying I had done so.

A few years later the same client gave me a netsuke. It was as big as an egg and ivory. It was cared with all the animals of the Chinese zodiac. I loved it. I was worried about bringing ivory back into the US so I stuck it in my undies when I went through customs. I eventually had it evaluated by a client who was on the board at the Seattle Art Museum. It was worth around $3,500. This was 1980.

I keep it next to me all the time in the office. I'm looking at it now. It's an amazing piece of art.

I have often wondered what that ugly lacquer painting was worth.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Charlez:
No,,,,I thank you for being interested. I like to show off what I do. Think of me as guy at the community pool in Speedos who climbs up on the high dive and makes a great show of preparation before executing a perfect full Benson.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

miatapaul said:


> I like that idea, and could see using it on a few projects(non marine as well). I will have to put in a mental note.


Car painters call it a guide coat. They spray a very light coat of black over the primer. For a heavy fairing job like a new hull, the multiple layers of different colour primer is way better.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

bobperry said:


> Charlez:
> No,,,,I thank you for being interested. I like to show off what I do. Think of me as guy at the community pool in Speedos who climbs up on the high dive and makes a great show of preparation before executing a perfect full Benson.


There's a comment in there about ivory in the Speedo but I can't quite come up with it.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Bop Perry in Speedos.... Thanks for that image that I can't unsee...


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## Rocky Mountain Breeze (Mar 30, 2015)

That comment certainly undermines the mental image I have acquired from reading this post to this point......


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Well, sorry about that but I swam competitively for years and I could not race in cut off jeans! However, I'm one of those people cursed with a fear of heights so that was not me on the high dive.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

I could never compete in Speedos due to the excessive drag.


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

bobperry said:


> Brazzi:
> Thank you. It's kind of like Chinese lacquer "painting". Where they cut through the different colors ( red and black).
> 
> I'll tell you a story
> ...


Good story, thanks for sharing. Oh the ones that got away.. But it was George Carlin who put it best "You cant have everything, where would you put it"


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Brazzi:
Too true.
Had I brought it home I already had a spot picked out for it. In the garage.


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

That's what usually happens. Right now my favorite wall thing is a signed numbered original Regatta watercolor painted on the LISound nautical chart. We bought it on the first trip to Annapolis for the Boat show so many years ago. I remember at the time how frivolous (emotional) a purchase it was, one day I may have a Boat big enough to display it, now it has to stay in the house.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

My wife called the office. "When you get home will you check to see if there is a tube on the door step. I'm expecting a Peter Max print."

No problem I thought. "I'll check on it. How much did you pay for this print?"
Wife, " $3,500".

" Fack!"

Sure, I'll bring it in out of the rain.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Work continues on the plug. Almost ready for the stem.


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## djodenda (Mar 4, 2006)

Bob:

Good morning, fellow early riser!

Not much to say other than this is really cool and really appreciate you sharing. Hope to wander by when I am in Anacortes during my summer travels...

David


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

David: stop on by any time you like. If you give me a heads up I could meet you at the yard. I could give you a tour of the plug. "See, this is one side and over there is the other side."


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

First layer of epoxy fairing compound.


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## djodenda (Mar 4, 2006)

Thanks for the generous offer, Bob.. Hope to take you up on it soon.. We are moving the boat to its summer home in Everett this weekend, so you might find us hanging off your mooring one morning asking to come ashore..

My son is headed to UW in the fall.. Wants to be an engineer of some kind, but not sure what (he also plays a mean trombone).. Be good to give him some perspective..

Now, if that was an airplane part, we'd lay it up on something like this:





Out of pre-preg carbon, put a caul pad on the outside for a smooth (aero/hydrodynamic) surface, vacuum bag it, and cure it in an autoclave..

Now I know you aren't going to do that, but I am curious how the layup is going to go.. 
Traditional boat composite layup?
Mats? Fiber? Resin infusion..

I assume they are going to vacuum bag it..

Sorry.. nerdy me wants to know

David


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Dave,

Your not nerdy, your an "egganeer at boink" as my step dad would say, being as he was one from late 50s to early 80's. 

Marty


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

David: You need to read the thread from the beginning. It's all there. We are building four of these for one client. They will all be all carbon fiber and epoxy hulls and decks over the male plug. We chose the male plug to better control the CF specifically in the area of the big fin (or is it full?) keel. It will be a vacuum bagged wet laminate. We are dropping the foam core off in the garboards and adding e glass to the carbon fiber skins to build up thickness throughout out the keel. Our builder is very familiar with carbon fiber. He prefers to work with carbon fiber. There is 6" additional freeboard on the plug to deal with what we need for vacuum bagging.


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## djodenda (Mar 4, 2006)

Sorry, Bob.. must have missed it...

Thanks for the info, and congratulations on your very cool project


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Thanks David. The boat wasn't interesting enough to qualify for the "interesting boats" thread but I think that is just a measure of some of the narrow thinking here. I think it is a very interesting project, Perhaps the most unusual, project I have ever done. To me. at least, that is interesting. But I've only been at this now for 55 years so what would I know?


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## gbgreen59 (Aug 20, 2013)

Love this....really interesting. Keep the pics and descriptions coming.

Thanks for posting


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

59: 
Many thanks. I'll keep you updated as it goes along. I make a trip to the yard every Friday morning. I'm lucky this time. This yard is exactly a one hour drive from my beach shack. This let me see parts of the process that I usually have to imagine.


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