# Cuba?



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I would like to sail from Key West to Havana, but I have no idea if it is legal and/or a good idea. Has anyone done it before or heard of someone who has?
Any info on the topic is appreciated.

Thanks,
Anson


----------



## AjariBonten (Sep 7, 2007)

It's not legal as a US citizen, though I'm not sure exactly how much trouble you'd get in.

I'm sure others will post better details


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Either by a political junket of sorts or I believe for filming/documentary purposes, you can get a permit or permission. And as a US citizen you can go as well. The big NO NO is spending any US cash there. Supposedly you tell our customs guys that you didn't. Then they'll engage you in a bit of a stare-out contest where I suggest that you don't blink first. And then you'll be fine.

P.S.--They won't stamp your passport no matter how you arrive. That's even better...........

Tell us how it goes---Cuba has been on my top ten list for many years...


----------



## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

It is not legal for Americans. You can get a big fine and lose your boat. It is no longer possible just to say you didn't spend money and get away with it. 
Whether or not you agree with the law...I suggest you obey it.


----------



## GySgt (Jun 11, 2007)

This is what noonsite says http://www.noonsite.com/Countries/Cuba

Add CIA factbook https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/cu.html#Issues

Your paperwork would have to be well in order. Even at that you could lose your boat with no diplomatic resolution.

Can't really say it is a place of interest to me. Stay away from Git'mo if you don't want you boat ventilated with .50 cal rounds.

Unless you have some pressing need or divine guidance, there are other places to sail.


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

The USCG frowns upon boats leaving from US waters heading to Cuba...and monitor them fairly closely from what I've been told. If you're a US-flagged boat, then you might be in some deep sh!t if you get caught.


----------



## ebs001 (May 8, 2006)

Actually Cam, it is illegal for anyone from any country to leave US waters or even *plan* to leave. The consequences are far more serious than a staring contest as Rick seems to suggest. A US citizen would be a fool to try and play games with Homeland Security. Anson, if you are an American, DON'T GO.


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

ebs001 said:


> Actually Cam, it is illegal for anyone from any country to leave US waters or even *plan* to leave.


uhmm, i dont get this part, please specify


----------



## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

U.S. officialdom is completely mental when it comes to Cuba. Where laws don't exist, they have a tendency to bluster and fabricate.

http://www.the-triton.com/megayachtnews/index.php?news=1978

Legal catch-all justification for seizing vessels on the high seas that may visit Cuba, or may be *suspected* of carrying terrorists/drugs/condoms/Cohibas:

www.hofstra.edu/PDF/law_lawrev_barry_vol33no1.pdf


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

camaraderie said:


> It is not legal for Americans. You can get a big fine and lose your boat. It is no longer possible just to say you didn't spend money and get away with it.
> Whether or not you agree with the law...I suggest you obey it.


I admit that I didn't search for the latest info, but your reply is news to me, Cam. Is this a new goody, or a different take/twist to the existing regs?............

Rick


----------



## Morgan3820 (Dec 21, 2006)

ebs001 said:


> Actually Cam, it is illegal for anyone from any country to leave US waters or even *plan* to leave. The consequences are far more serious than a staring contest as Rick seems to suggest. A US citizen would be a fool to try and play games with Homeland Security. Anson, if you are an American, DON'T GO.


Please spare me your definition of what an American is. We have ceased to be a land of the free due in part to thinking like yours. George Bush or you have no right, no right at all to tell me or anyone else what to do with my time or my money. Previous Americans have died to preserve the freedoms that G Bush is hell bent to take away. He and those that think like him betray and dishonor their sacrifice. I hope that his replacement (Thank God) actually takes his oath to protect the Constitution seriously. I would be surprised if george has ever even read it. Have you? And no I am not a fan of Hillary, Obamma or any other democratic party candidate


----------



## Stepford (Nov 3, 2002)

Well, then go ahead and go.


----------



## phallo153 (May 4, 2007)

Ebs001 was obviously just advising Anson against violating any laws or taking unnecessary risks. I don't think he was questioning his 'patriotism'.

That having been said, give us a break Morgan... I'm no fan of GW, but he was about 17 years old when the first travel restriction to Cuba went into effect.


----------



## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Morgan, old sport!
ebs ain't even an Amuricun. He's just a happy go-lucky Canuck stuck at the dentist's office on a lap-top, trying to help out a cruiser. There remains the distinct possibility that he's gotten in to the laughing gas again though. Why don't you take your political hoo-hah over to the Off Topic forum. There's a great thread over there on fermenting sour yak milk that's must reading.


----------



## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Hah...EBS is Canadian, liberal and probably somewhat to the left of your own politics Morgan...he was just giving good advice to stay out of trouble...not a political opinion. 
As for you...blame the restrictions on Kennedy and every President and Congress since then. 
As for me...law or no law...I prefer not to spend my $$ to support a vicious dictator.


----------



## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Rick...here's a source:
1/25/2004 Washington Times: "If U.S. citizens visit Cuba and fail to put it on the post-trip declaration form, they can be charged with perjury and their name entered into the Homeland Security Department database. If they admit to traveling to Cuba, they are subject to a fine of as much as $10,000."


----------



## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Oh, this is great. Here we go again...

Well, I have had a beer or two, to begin the conversation:

First, I would guess that the OP is a troll. If not, my apologies. This topic has been highly debated here and on other sites.

From a non-personal note, I will say that I am not sure that it is illegal to visit Cuba. Not sure the US can actually do that to its citizens. Instead, they found a loophole that you cannot spend any money there... something about trading with the enemy or whatever. Might as well be the same thing since Castro ain't running his island for free. So, in a way, I guess it is illegal and in a way it is not. I must apologize as I have not checked the latest reg's since leaving S Fl. 

From a personal note: Now, since I brought up S FL, I think anyone PLANNING on visiting Cuba (American, Canadian, Wada-wadakan or WTF ever) should have to spend at least 3 months in Miami or some of the keys which I will be happy to name. You can let them recall the pillaging and dissapearance and murdering in their country. My suggestion is don't tell them you are planning on visiting, if you value your cojones. But hey, what do I know? I am just a dumb American (and Texan at that) that does not know any better.

And yes, the restrictions were not GWB's... though he has no intention of lifting them. I don't like anyone telling me where I can and cannot go either, but even if they paid me money, I would not go to Cuba and pay that BAS**** a dime of my money. And the sad thing is... I would love to go. I have on many occasions been closer to their border than the US, and kept my course away.

Do what you want. THe S Fl word is that if they suspect you ( I SAID SUSPECT) you can lose your tub. Not worth it. Steer clear. That is what the US Govt wants anyways, and I have no mind to fight it... so screw them. If you do decide, you know, to screw them: well, just sail on, Brother. The trick is EDIT... forget it... there is a trick to doing it... EDIT... go to S Fl and they will tell you how to get around it... I am not going to tell you...


EDIT... edit again...

THat is all I will say. You can pick up the pieces from there if you are hell bent on going. I gave you enough info to figure out how to get around the system. If you can't figure it out from there, you deserve to lose your boat.

Regards,

- CD


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Ouch.

BTW Cam, I understand your distaste for Fido, but I've been very disappointed and saddened for the effects on Cuba's _populace_ over the past 40 years. Next to perhaps some areas of Borneo, PNG and a few other places, they're the closest thing there is to a Country In A Bubble (so to speak). And with the greatness of America just a few short miles away, that has got to really be emotionally unsettling to them. I find the whole edict/charade/regulations very disheartening. Hopefully in the very near future the cloak of stagnation will be lifted.

Then maybe my sis-in-law and her family can return home after all these years. That is if there's anything left for them to see and hold.........

RB


----------



## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

RickLaPaz said:


> Ouch.
> 
> BTW Cam, I understand your distaste for Fido, but I've been very disappointed and saddened for the effects on Cuba's _populace_ over the past 40 years. Next to perhaps some areas of Borneo, PNG and a few other places, they're the closest thing there is to a Country In A Bubble (so to speak). And with the greatness of America just a few short miles away, that has got to really be emotionally unsettling to them. I find the whole edict/charade/regulations very disheartening. Hopefully in the very near future the cloak of stagnation will be lifted.
> 
> ...


Rick,

I think you have read enough of my stuff to know I am not quick temepered. Most people here know this topic is the quickest way to see me lose my cool.

Just spend some time there. THose people, well, have really been screwed over by that guy. I have heard soooooooo many storis. I had the gal that cleaned my housewas a cuba. She cried to us many times about what happened. Unbelieveable. I thought she was a screw ball. THen another rape story, and another dissapearance... and well, whatever.

It is a sore subject with me. I will not make light of how I feel. And if you think I am being harsh.. hey, you are from Mexico... hop a plan to little Havana and talk to some of the folks there. You will change your mind.

- CD


----------



## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Rick,
Maybe send your posted concerns to Fidel. The US is just ignoring the country, the rest of the world is free to trade with Cuba, and the place is still a bicycle shop with no air.


----------



## Trekka (Jul 16, 2006)

. said:


> ...blame the restrictions on Kennedy and every President and Congress since then.


No, blame it on W. During the 1990's restrictions were relaxed and a lot of travel developed, including sailing regatta's to Havana, and cruises around the island. Expats with relatives there had liberal travel priviliges and could send such money as they wished to their relations. W brushed all that off the table and put in place the tightest restrictions we have had in decades.


----------



## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

what a load.

http://www.cubacruising.net/html/shipwreck.html
http://havanajournal.com/travel/entry/canadian_yacht_sinks_off_cuba_boaters_held/
http://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y04/jun04/14e5.htm

if you want to go, knock yourself out.


----------



## jldooley (Aug 1, 2007)

Last year or was it 2-3 years ago ..
tampa or Miami Fl newspaper started a story about some sailor who sailed to Cuba. then websites linked to him he was in one of the sail rags he started a legal defense fund becasue 
upon his return to 'the land of the free' the US govt. took his boat, questioned him, sued him. He had the $ to get a lawyer ..

trying to remember more?? anybody know anything about him?? what happened?


----------



## Slooptattoo (Aug 4, 2007)

*Miami Herald*

The article was almost three years ago, I'll see if I can find a copy of it. They seized his boat and auctioned it off, he was fined $10 K and sentenced to ten years probation. I'll do my best to find it. Touchy subject down here, if Castro doesn't get you the locals will make sure you have a bad hair day for giving money to a despot. It's really not a joke, the govt. and the local political groups will have their pound of flesh. Under no circumstances would I go or give one thin dime to his regime. I'd give anything to see the pristine cruising grounds, but the price is too high at the moment, both dollar wise and morally.


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*I visited Cuba earlier this year ....*

... and sailed back from Havana to Key West. US Customs were definitely NOT amused and gave us a hard time before finally admitting us. But then we are British and there was no reason preventing us. As Valiente says, they just blustered when they couldn't find the rules. They quoted endless regulations applying to US citizens, and I'm sure any American trying it would be in deep, deep sh*t. I gather things have tightened up considerably from 2004 when there was the last yacht race from Florida to Havana.

Even so, there were a couple of US boats in Marina Hemingway. They had gone via Mexico or Dominican Republic to avoid Big Brother. Cuba doesn't stamp your passport.


----------



## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

*They had gone via Mexico or Dominican Republic to avoid Big Brother. Cuba doesn't stamp your passport.

*Americans better be aware that the eyes in the sky can read boat names and track 'em. Simply entering the country from another does not mean you ain't gonna get slapped if you try to get around the law. Those fishing boats off the keys ain't all fishing boats! Remember if you lie on entry and are caught...it is perjury. Big fines/big lawyer fees and big trouble.


----------



## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

It's actually kind of funny. "I want to go to Cuba!" "Why?" "Because I want to see the unspoiled beaches and indigenous culture." Begging the question, aren't there plenty enough Caribbean islands with a 1950's economy and pretty beaches? Can you count 'em?

It's probably more along the lines of Mom says, "don't touch that". As soon as Mom turns her back, the kid....


----------



## OkSanJuan (Dec 7, 2004)

I don't know about cruising there, but it is possible (and inexpensive) to catch a commuter flight there from Jamaica... and as said, they don't stamp your passport.

Not that I would condone violating any US imposed sanctions against visiting Cuba, just pointing out a way it can be done without much risk of getting caught.


----------



## kwaltersmi (Aug 14, 2006)

For what's it's worth, here's what Wiki has to say on the matter:

"Following the Cuban Missile Crisis, Kennedy imposed travel restrictions on February 8, 1963, and the Cuban Assets Control Regulations were issued on July 8, 1963, under the Trading with the Enemy Act in response to Cubans hosting Soviet nuclear weapons, which led to the Cuban Missile Crisis. Under these restrictions, Cuban assets in the U.S. were frozen and the existing restrictions were consolidated.

Multilateral sanctions were imposed by the Organization of American States (OAS) on July 26, 1964, but these were abandoned on July 29, 1975.

The restrictions on U.S. citizens traveling to Cuba lapsed on March 19, 1977; the regulation was renewable every six months, but President Jimmy Carter did not renew it and the regulation on spending U.S. dollars in Cuba was lifted shortly afterwards. President Ronald Reagan reinstated the trade embargo on April 19, 1982. This has been modified subsequently with the present regulation, effective June 30, 2004,[4] being the Cuban Assets Control Regulations, 31 C.F.R. part 515.[5] The current regulation does not limit travel of US Citizens to Cuba per se, but it makes it illegal for US Citizens to have transactions (spend money or receive gifts) in Cuba under most circumstances without a US government Office of Foreign Assets Control issued license."


----------



## pegasus1457 (Apr 14, 2002)

camaraderie said:


> It is not legal for Americans. You can get a big fine and lose your boat. It is no longer possible just to say you didn't spend money and get away with it.
> Whether or not you agree with the law...I suggest you obey it.


US law now states that US citizens may not spend *any* money in embargoed countries (e.g., Cuba). They have made their stance even more draconian by asserting that the $48 you have to spend to get a Cuban tourist visa constitutes prima facie evidence for violation of the US restrictions.

If you try to enter US waters in a boat coming from Cuba they can and most likely will confiscate the boat. In addition you will be liable for fines of up to $100K and a year in prison. I think the average violator doesn't get the fine and prison punishment, but they will take your boat.

The only exception is for people participating in pre-approved cultural or commercial exchanges, including making documentary films. Michael Moore went to Cuba as part of his making *Sicko*, without prior permission, and is now fighting in the courts to avoid punishment. He has deeper pockets than any of us, and he still may lose his fight.

If you want to visit Cuba, leave your boat at home, and arrange to get there via Mexico or Canada. Many people do this and successfully avoid the legal tangle. It is really a shame to have to drop Cuba as a cruising destination.


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Now I'll admit I found the threads by the TJC01010 guy amusing as hell - but I can't believe no one ever said something about his claim of sailing to Cuba and then on to Mexico - I surprised someone hasn't sent the banana hamock picture and website to the USCG - if nothing else we'd probably be able to see what the US does... and get an answer to this debate.


----------



## pedrodelrio (Nov 18, 2007)

*Cuba cruising website has the whole story*

Folks,

Under the current administration, previous loopholes that allowed U.S. sailors to take their boats to Cuba have been closed. Potential fines for doing so range up to $55,000. There is likely a provision that includes seizure of your vessel.

I have website well stocked with information about the nuances of this law.

For example, as a fulltime journalist, I can travel to Cuba at will and do, but even with this "general license" I cannot go aboard my boat. That requires a license from the U.S. Commerce Department (not Treasury that's not for boats but for people). That's when the Catch 22 applies, Commerce must seek comment on your application from 1. The Pentagon, 2. The Energy Department (I don't know why) and 3. The State Department.

As a matter of routine, State routinely stamps each application for any vessel under 100 meters in length with the phrase "not in the interest of U.S. foreign policy." Application denied. I have gone through the application process and spoken to others as well.

So if you are a U.S. citizen, you are not going to take your boat to Cuba legally unless you have friend in Condoleza Rice. As you can guess, I get many inquiries from U.S. cruisers wanting to explore cruisers. I advise them not to under the current circumstances. Regime change--theirs and ours--is not far off.

What's more the noise made by the Bush administration, when it instituted this crackdown also intimidated Canadian sailors into taking Cuba off their cruising itineraries, even though there was no legal basis for their fears.

Read about it all on my cubacruising.net site.

Peter Swanson


----------



## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Welcome aboard Peter. I have referenced your site previously here on the tale of Ray Olivers' wreck and travails in Cuba. Nice site!


----------



## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Pedro and Pegasus will also soon be offering facts and information on violating the sanctions against Iran. Yes, you too will be able to experience the wonderful cruising destination currently housed in the ancient Persian paradise. Experience the thrill of sailing with the Revolutionary Guard as they patrol for wayward British prizes of opportunity. Experience the thrill of watching the big tankers load, funding the world-wide terror movement. Enjoy a country that knows how to keep those pesky Christians in line; there's no need for the Moral Majority when Allah is in charge of the government. Day trips to the training camps for Freedom Fighters as well as the Atoms for Peace Project are in the early planning stages. You too will be able to cruise the very waters that have thrilled and excited such legendary bon-vivants as Hugo and Fidel. Call today for your complimentary T-shirt, available just for the asking, that says, "Totalitarian Tour '08" or the ever popular, "I Don't See No Stinkin" Suffering". Call now, space and shirts are limited. Notice: We are currently unable to accomodate those with alternative lifestyles due to certain Iranian immigration and cultural issues, which are a result of US propaganda.


----------



## pedrodelrio (Nov 18, 2007)

Sailaway can be amusing, but he writes better than he reads. To summarize my post, my advice to U.S. citizens is _not to violate _the embargo, nor is my website an apologist for the Castro Regime, a dictatorship.

Having said that, and having traveled in both the Middle East and Cuba, I would say that ordinary Cubans are in many ways better off than the folks living under the thumb of governments allied to the United States and therefore okay for Americans to visit.

I do confess to supporting the right for Americans to travel freely, and I do not believe, based on reporting in Cuba and study, that the embargo against Cuba has any chance of success. If it did, then there might be some greater good in taking away the rights of free people to go where they choose. That is not the case. Not even close.

Go to the website, Sailaway, then you might come away with a different impression.

Peter Swanson


----------



## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Peter,
I have seen your site and it is quite nicely done. Regardless of how well done the site is, it's mere existence foments the desire to visit Cuba and facilitates the same. Both of which you freely acknowledge on the site. Regardless of the fact of US policy towards Cuba I continue to find it unconscionable that anyone can or would advocate going to Cuba. The Cuban economy is controlled by a totalitarian regime that oppressed it's people and that economy is greatly aided by the influx of foreign currency. Foreign currency does nothing, in fact-less than nothing, to improve the lot of the average Cuban since it is illegal for them to possess foreign currency or reap the benefits of foreign trade. What that foreign currency does do is fund the despotic dictatorship that those Cubans live under and extend it's life. Therefore I regard your actions and the monies you reap to be immoral and ill-gotten gains. If you'd like to discuss those governments which you feel are more oppresive of their people, while acting as allies of the US, where trade and visas are allowed, I look forward to your list of nations and their oppressions in an Off Topic thread. Until then I will continue to marvel at your concerns about the travel possibilities for free Americans while ignoring how those possibilities can impact the lives of a people who have known no freedom for generations. A more selfish or self-absorbed ethos I cannot imagine.


----------



## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Sway..without getting off topic...we CAN go to China, Thailand, Vietnam, Myanmar...all of which I would consider as bad as Castro. I disagree with your assessment of Peter/Pedro's site and intentions. Someday soon we will all be able to visit a FREE Cuba and his site whets my appetite for THAT day. His home page stranded sailor article does nothing if not to discourage sailors from going there.


----------



## pedrodelrio (Nov 18, 2007)

Folks,

I subscribe to the the very unradical notion, shared by _all _America's friends and allies in the world and even a growing number of younger Cuban-Americans here at home, that the embargo does hurt ordinary Cuban people by giving the Castro regime a convenient excuse for its failed economy: Blame the Yankees.

Lift the embargo and you reveal instantly that the emperor has no clothes. What's your excuse now, Raul?

I would correct some of Sailaway's assumptions. If he had ever visited Cuba, he would see that some tourist money does find its way into the hands of ordinary Cubans, despite the government's cruel policy of keeping the lion's share. This is particularly true of cruiser spending because we move around outside the resort complexes and therefore exist somewhat outside of government control.

That is perhaps why the Cuban authorities themselves can be cool toward cruisers (if not downright nasty), because they can't control how we spend our money.

The embargo, on the other hand, does not hurt the Communist elite of Cuba one bit. They live very well despite our best efforts to prevent hard cash from entering the country.

It's funny to hear Sailaway write so passionately and contrarily when we are in basic agreement. We agree things ain't right in Cuba. I just happen to believe in a pragmatic approach to the problem, rather than Sailaway's more ideological belief system. I think we could use more pragmatism and less ideology if we are to avoid bloodshed during the inevitable transition to Cuban democracy.

I do believe allowing Americans to cruise the coast of Cuba would do more to help ordinary Cubans than it would the Cuban government.

Peter Swanson


----------



## PorFin (Sep 10, 2007)

*Guess I should jump in here...*

All,

I've got a bit closer view of things, since:

a) I'm a US citizen;
b) I currently live on the hard in Havana; and
c) I live here legally and with full US Government approval.

I've got a few observations that may be of interest.

First, much of what has been said previously is demonstrably correct (from all quarters of the raging debate.)

As Peter mentioned, tourist money doesn't all go directly to the Cuban government. Years ago, Fidel relaxed a bit and allowed many Cuban families to run/operate restaurants (_paladares_) out of their homes. Although these entrepreneurs in training are required to purchase food from the more expensive supermarkets (rather than using their food ration allowances) they do seem to turn a modest profit. This is just a single example of private enterprise being allowed to exist, albeit a rather small one.

On the other hand, virtually every large operation of any type is run by the government. Believe me, in spite of the sanctions they are not hurting for business. There are lots of tourists (and many well-off locals) who patronize these etablishments.

Second, any US citizen contemplating trying to "slip in under the radar" and visiting here would best leave that for some future date. Not all relations between our two governments are icy (though most are.) There is a fair amount of positive cooperations in the law enforcement, weather, customs, and homeland security arenas. Although it doesn't make big splashes in the major US media, extraditions from Cuba to the US are taking place.

Third, although my wife and I considered it (and there was nothing that says we couldn't) we elected not to try and bring a vessel to Havana. Too many uncertainties over whether or not we'd be allowed to leave aboard our vessel when it was time for us to return home.

BTW: There's a decent Chinese restaurant at the Marina Hemingway -- it's a favorite of many expats who live in west Havana, and to get there you have to drive right along the quay where all of the foreign vessels are berthed. A US vessel stands out and will be noticed. I've had chats with many Canadian cruisers, but virtually every vessel that looks to be from the US has "No Pasar" quarantine seals on all hatches/ports, with no crew to be found.

If anyone has specific questions about Marina Hemingway, I'd be glad to try and answer them -- shoot me a pm, and I'll take a whack at it.

PF


----------



## heslopg (Feb 14, 2005)

I am a Canadian and regularly floating in S. FL. Last I researched, the Executive Orders read that if 'they' found Cuban charts aboard and suspected I might leave the USA for Cuban waters they could seize the vessel & remove the crew. We figured we'd find other cruising grounds. You?


----------



## pedrodelrio (Nov 18, 2007)

Nonsense. Canadians can go to Cuba and the U.S. will not interfere. For some fascinating reading about the masterful slight of hand which gave you and other Canadians this impression, go to my website and click on "Canadians Fold."

Peter Swanson


----------



## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

PorFin...how are you able to communicate on the internet from Cuba?


----------



## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

pedrodelrio said:


> Nonsense. Canadians can go to Cuba and the U.S. will not interfere. For some fascinating reading about the masterful slight of hand which gave you and other Canadians this impression, go to my website and click on "Canadians Fold."
> 
> Peter Swanson


Thank you for confirming yet more evidence of U.S. duplicity and attempts to exercise extra-territoriality. I suppose this is another reason to avoid U.S. waters entirely. Sham threats, double-talking, weasel words: America, xxx

This is a shame, because while I enjoy the U.S. people, I find their federal government increasingly unpalatable, particularly to its assumed allies.

Want to hear something funny? I didn't really care if I went to Cuba or not until the last five years. Now it's looking like an intriguing destination...and thanks, G.W., for ensuring I'll have my choice of dock assignments!


----------



## LWinters (Nov 16, 2006)

So, while it sounds very unlikely I'd get permission, can anyone give guidance on the appropriate channels to seek a visa to visit Cuba legally by boat? Moral arguments aside, I would like to visit the country, but have no desire to do so under false or illegal pretenses. I'll be heading towards the FL Keys from the Texas coast. Be a shame not to visit Havana along the way.


----------



## PorFin (Sep 10, 2007)

camaraderie said:


> PorFin...how are you able to communicate on the internet from Cuba?


Cam -- I'll shoot you a PM.

PF


----------



## pedrodelrio (Nov 18, 2007)

See my post above about having to get a permit from the Commerce Department for your boat, which will be denied.


----------



## pedrodelrio (Nov 18, 2007)

Noonsite is a bit outdated on this issue.


----------



## Trekka (Jul 16, 2006)

pedrodelrio said:


> ...and I do not believe, based on reporting in Cuba and study, that the embargo against Cuba has any chance of success.


It's only been going now for what, 45 years? Give it time! (_Some people are so impatient_!)

Seriously, this has been going on for almost half a century, with no success - or chance of it. It makes as much sense now as the Berlin Wall did in 1989, the last summer it was standing. Both complete anachronisms in the contemporary world.

We trade with and can travel to, nations with orders of magnitude worse treatment of people than Cuba. But a minority of us, exercising clout far in excess of their numbers, cannot get over the fact that the mob and Batista got thrown out and another government took over. The fastest way to change things there would be to let hordes of American tourists all over the country, as well as our opening access for relatives here to relatives there.


----------



## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Trekka said:


> It's only been going now for what, 45 years? Give it time! (_Some people are so impatient_!)
> 
> Seriously, this has been going on for almost half a century, with no success - or chance of it. It makes as much sense now as the Berlin Wall did in 1989, the last summer it was standing. Both complete anachronisms in the contemporary world.
> 
> We trade with and can travel to, nations with orders of magnitude worse treatment of people than Cuba. But a minority of us, exercising clout far in excess of their numbers, cannot get over the fact that the mob and Batista got thrown out and another government took over. *The fastest way to change things there would be to let hordes of American tourists all over the country*, as well as our opening access for relatives here to relatives there.


Good Lord man what are you saying ? 

I think I've just re-examined my entire attitude towards Cuba.

The embargo must stand !! Viva la Revolution !!


----------



## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Re-read more closely, Rick. It's your government's hypocritical policies, not your people, that give me heartburn. Cuba is just one of many Great Satans Washington requires to keep the voters distracted from the noise of the feasting at the trough, and it just happens to be quite convenient a spot on which to have a little gulag called Gitmo where that pesky "need to charge/speedy trial" thing applies. Bleatings from the ramparts of the fortress of freedom the U.S. likes to portray itself as being would be a little more convincing if you weren't ready to ditch most of your Constitution through "patriot acts" and "homeland security" provisions enacted largely by executive fiat.

I don't deny Cuba's a filthy, corrupt dictatorship, but I don't agree that America's the paragon of democracy it claims to be (I've got some illegally tortured Canadians you could talk to). America is like any other empire: it works in the interest of its ruling class while mouthing platitudes about its republican ideals. Try being a poor person with a paid-for house in the way of a proposed Wal-Mart...how is "eminent domain", for instance, anything but government-assisted expropriation of private property?

Maybe what you are mistaking for communist sympathies (do I sound commie to you, Rick? I assure you I'm a little to the right of the average Montana Militiaman in some respects...) is in fact a real sense of disappointment that the grand experiment of American democracy is visibly breaking down. Sure, you're still superficially OK, but the chipping away at the base of the structure has been going on for some decades now, and it seems many Americans are either oblivious or see the phony "sacrifice" of what used to be inalienable rights as the "cost" of security. Well, 250 years ago, the cost of this was known: _Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety_-Ben Franklin.

Cuba is a paper tiger. The U.S. obsession with it is ridiculous, considering both its intrinsic threat and the history of the U.S. playing footsie with Latin-American dictators in the region (Guatemala, Nicaragua, Panama, Haiti) and bastards who later had the gall to turn on you (Saddam, bin Ladin, the South Vietnam regime, Sudan warlords, Musharraf). Yet you still try to back dictators "of the right flavour", instead of reviewing what 50 years of dictator-backing has done for the plausibility of exporting U.S. democracy abroad. Now it sounds like a sick threat: "Careful, little brown dudes, or we'll bring democracy to your village!"

At least when one is dealing with the Chinese empire, one doesn't have to endure such hypocritical windbaggery. They have an interest, they WILL push it to the limit of their advantage, and you WON'T budge them with bleatings about "human rights". They don't care, and they want to sell you stuff made by slaves. Your reaction to that proposition determines the outcome.

Maybe if America started acting like the empire it is, you wouldn't gain new friends, but it would be nice to finally lessen the discordance between rhetoric and actions.


----------



## ccam (Dec 17, 2006)

*Re-read more closely, Rick. It's your government's hypocritical policies, not your people, that give me heartburn.*

Careful Val, Unlike any other nation, We are the United States of America and our Government is "of the people, by the people, for the people"


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

ccam-

I'd have to agree with Valiente... most of my friends overseas have serious issues with the government, not the people of the United States.


----------



## pedrodelrio (Nov 18, 2007)

What I find amazing is that in Cuba itself, where all the nation's ills are blamed on the US embargo by Cuban government pronouncements, the Cuban people themselves seem to hold no grudge against individual Americans.

I ascribe this to the fact that since ordinary Cubans have no control over their own government's behavior, they do not blame ordinary Americans for US government policies, thinking we are as helpless as they. This is a wonderful sense of fairness for an oppressed people.

In fact, if we should be blamed because we do have a say in what our government does. We have allowed too many special interest groups to effectively hijack aspects of domestic and foreign policy. 

Peter Swanson


----------



## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

ccam said:


> *Re-read more closely, Rick. It's your government's hypocritical policies, not your people, that give me heartburn.*
> 
> Careful Val, Unlike any other nation, We are the United States of America and our Government is "of the people, by the people, for the people"


Careful, or what? You'll bring democracy to my country?

Ask this young woman about the concept of "justice for all".

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/Story?id=3977702&page=1

Ask the prisoners in your gulags. Ask your offshored torture victims. Ask the vets in your hospitals trying to get the benefits and care promised to them. Ask countries with DIRECT elections of their executives, not with convenient, anarchronistic fudge factors like "the electoral college". Either reform your behaviour on the world stage, or embrace your will to power and really start with the camp-building and the "Hank Wessel Song". This mincing about pretending to have republican values is getting tiresome.


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

The Republicans have repeatedly proven that they're great at lying... in fact, GWB's administration seems to have made a pretty solid job of it...every time GWB opens his mouth, it seems another lie or three pop out.

Very sad, but very true... Look at the reasons for invading Iraq. Look at Iran's nuclear program. Look at the warrantless wiretaps via the "secret rooms" at the telcos. Look at Rendition. Look at Valerie Plame being outed. and the list goes on, and on, and on...


----------



## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

You have bigger problems as a country than whether or not Hilary Clinton is a controlling ***** or not. At this stage, who is president seems largely irrelevant.

It's way beyond Republicans and Democrats. Beyond your borders, they just look like two branches of the Mafia, with some rare exceptions. It is the machine of political influence, greased by millions of dollars (that will be repaid in kind) that makes the candidates. The movie "Being There" was supposed to be satire, not prophecy, and certainly not a documentary.


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Unfortunately, I'd have to agree with you...both parties are pretty clueless...and most of the candidates are fairly reprehensible.


Valiente said:


> You have bigger problems as a country than whether or not Hilary Clinton is a controlling ***** or not. At this stage, who is president seems largely irrelevant.
> 
> It's way beyond Republicans and Democrats. Beyond your borders, they just look like two branches of the Mafia, with some rare exceptions. It is the machine of political influence, greased by millions of dollars (that will be repaid in kind) that makes the candidates. The movie "Being There" was supposed to be satire, not prophecy, and certainly not a documentary.


----------



## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

Valiente, I first took your comments as someone who got up on the wrong side of the bed. But then, reading what you wrote again, I realized you realized that Canada is the same thing that Puerto Rico is to the USA....... Maybe someday you'll be the State you want to be.


----------



## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Sorry Val, I can't go there with you on this one. US foreign policy tends to be fairly steady regardless of which party is in power. I'm saddened that you apparently believe all that stuff about the erosion of our rights here, the deficiencies of the electoral college, and the gulag at Gitmo. None of it's really true, except in the minds of those who want it to be true. And, for the most part, the US government does represent the views of the US people. We are after all, one of the world's oldest republican democracies and younger nations sometimes have trouble understanding how finely crafted our constitution really is, electoral college and all.


----------



## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

SailingDog,
Perhaps you might like to specifically enlighten us on those areas where the political parties are clueless and just what aspects of just which canidates are reprehensible?

These people and their parties are shopping for your vote. Maybe you should demand more of them. Maybe you should forward your post above this to the headquarters of your particular party of choice and ask for an explanation. Or maybe you just don't know what the hell you're talking about. Oh, and btw, if you don't have a particular party of choice to forward your concerns to then you should probably quit bloviating because you've opted out of any system of change, which would explain your post rather well.


----------



## ccam (Dec 17, 2006)

Valiente said:


> Careful, or what? You'll bring democracy to my country?


Maybe thats what you need! 
"Canada is not a democracy in the strictest sense of the word, but rather can be aptly described as a Constitutional Monarchy. The highest ranking official in government is not an elected representative, not even a Canadian (residing in or born in), but rather an un-elected British monarch."



Valiente said:


> Ask this young woman about the concept of "justice for all".
> 
> http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/Story?id=3977702&page=1


In a war torn country it is very very dangerous to be a woman. I hope she recovers, but what about your pristine civilized neighborhood. Statistics show one in four Canadian women will be sexually assaulted during her lifetime. ( J. Brickman and J. Briere, "Incidence of Rape and Sexual Assault in an Urban Canadian Population.
A survey on date rape showed that 60% of Canadian college-aged males indicated that they would commit sexual assault if they were certain they would not get caught. (Helen Lenskyj, "An Analysis of Violence Against Women.



Valiente said:


> Ask the prisoners in your gulags.


Hey Val, our prisoners are Taliban Terrorist. Lets see what Canada has:
[Former political prisoner Brad Love, who was sentenced, in 2003, to 
18 months in prison for writing non-threatening letters to public 
officials, keeps his writing skills sharp with his comments from 
Alberta. He served two further terms for writing non-threatening 
letters to other politicians and newspapers for alleged "breach of 
probation" gag orders, yes, here in Canada, not in North Korea or 
Burma.]  
Back in the diverse (crime-ridden) City of Toronto, free speacher Paul 
Fromm lost his teaching certificate due to his alleged ties to others 
who utter truths most others only dare to whisper. What a joke this 
is. Our school system is riddled with left wingers, black militants, 
porno addicts, holocaust preachers, radical Israelis, advocating 
homosexuals, all with their own agendas and never shy to mouth off 
about it. Yet, the Peel School Board under pressure from Jewish groups 
of which there are very few in Peel, strained with all their might 
(and your tax $$$) to silence one man whom the majority in Canada (or 
are we the minority now?) agree with anyway.

Brad 
Fort McMurray, Alberta 
Dominion of Canada 
---------------------------------------
Canada's Crime Rate 50 % Higher than U.S.
2006 Press reports that Canada is a Shangri-la - 
In fact, statistics show that the violent crime rate there is double that of the United States 
-----------------------------------------------


Valiente said:


> Ask your offshored torture victims. Ask the vets in your hospitals trying to get the benefits and care promised to them. Ask countries with DIRECT elections of their executives, not with convenient, anarchronistic fudge factors like "the electoral college". Either reform your behaviour on the world stage, or embrace your will to power and really start with the camp-building and the "Hank Wessel Song". This mincing about pretending to have republican values is getting tiresome.


The Electoral College does serve a purpose Val-
-contributes to the cohesiveness of the country by requiring a distribution of popular support to be elected president(Niether California nor Mass. can decide the election, It kinda of prevents another civil war) 
-enhances the status of minority interests,
-contributes to the *political stability of the nation* by encouraging a two-party system, and *maintains* a federal system of government and *representation*.

Ok Val, we will take care of our problems and you sir should take care of yours. Hey Val, by the way, your posts on sailing related subjects are outstanding I enjoy reading them. But, bashing your favorite citizens to the south is not only impolite, but down right rude! Fair Winds!


----------



## vadimgo (Feb 23, 2007)

*Hey, it was about sailing, right?*

Since we sailors majority do not vote together, as opposed to the vocal SoFlorida minority...
Iron curtian supposedly is down and a freedom to sail to any place should be part of the overall FREEDOM. But obviously we do not live in a perfect world.

So, take a plane to Cuba if you insist, or hope for the better


----------



## tommyt (Sep 21, 2002)

Val,

You know I enjoy your company over a beer, dinner, and sailing. I usually agree most of the time with your sailing posts here. I remember telling you as we walked around Villamoura that politics was off limits as we were not going to agree, and what I or you thought about American or Canadian politics was not going to sway either of us. We agreed to disagree and had a beer instead. However, in this post, you are just way out of line. You really need to get your head out of that very dark place you have it. There Cam, I showed restraint and did not say ass!

The US is a country of WE the people. WE elect our politicians, and yes sometimes they disapoint us. I think that happens in other countries where they have the freedom to vote as well. You can't say that our politicians and our policies are horrible but the people are nice any more than you can say all American women are ugly, "except your wife of course", and not get in a pissing contest. This is our government and we do have a say in it if we participate. There has to be a reason that the PEOPLE in other countries that you are trying to protect from us, Cuba certainly a good example, risk their lives to get here. Why?

Certainly we have those that have elected out of the process and just ***** in hindsite, but that is OK. In fact, there are many of us that are happy that they elect out because they are the same ones that usually just pull the party lever and walk away. Thought...whats that? There are certainly a few on this thread that seem to fit that slot fairly well. *****...and do nothing! Except ***** of course!

Unlike Rick, I do hope that you stop and shop along the way. Our economy is based on consumerism. And, we don't have a minimum bank balance to let you in. Stop, spend some time, and please spend your money.


----------



## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

*No more*

I find myself having to walk a thin line between being a patriot of my country and the moderator at sailnet. As such, I will withold any and all comments on my opinions of these posts.

That being said, I find the tone of this thread to be offensive to Canadians and Americans. I think it is time we stopped openly criticising each others country. I feel by doing so we promote hostility toward each other where there would normally not any. In essence, if you hate Canada or hate America (or any other country for that matter), keep it to yourself.

I will give slightly more lattitude to the Off Topic forum, but not here. And even in the Off Topic forum, I feel my patience is wearing thin.

No more.

- CD


----------



## PorFin (Sep 10, 2007)

CD,

Thanks for your admonition, and efforts to return civility to the net.

Now, to bring it back more in line with the OP, here's some news:

A US vessel (Gulfstar 50) with a family of five aboard recently put into a port in eastern Cuba with serious rudder damage. The Cuban authorities were not overly helpful in securing assistance for the Captain to effect repairs. However after pointed inquiries made by State Department and USCG officials in Havana, the vessel was towed to a port in which temporary repairs may be possible.

Initially, the Cubans demanded that the vessel put to sea in spite of the fact that the vessel would have been difficult -- if not impossible -- to control.

Yet another reason anyone should seriously ask themselves "Why do I really want to cruise to Cuba?"


----------



## sailusvi (May 3, 2005)

I do believe there will be great opportunity there in the near future....IMO.



pedrodelrio said:


> I advise them not to under the current circumstances. Regime change--theirs and ours--is not far off.
> 
> Peter Swanson


----------



## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

RickBowman said:


> CD,
> 
> I am wondering why that it took you 3 weeks  to arrive at your conclusion? My chief complaint with this particular thread has zero to do with patriotism but wiith civility, decency and politeness to each other. Was the moderators radar screen turned off or  ...
> 
> Rick


Rick,

Cam and I do our best to read as many posts as we can. However, we absolutely cannot read them all. I spend half my time trying to make sure Paris Hilton stays out. I am already on this board most of the day (believe it or not). Basically: I did not know.

Also, as I said before, it is a fine line we have to walk in trying to keep a unbiased opinion. You may or may not know, but being from S FL, Cuba is a VERY hot topic for me that I decided best to avoid in fear of infuriating many members.

I am trying to be fair to all sides.

- CD


----------



## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Perhaps going forward this thread should be restricted to discussions of Cuba as a destination and the LEGAL requirements for entry/exit rather than opinions on the political side or whether current US law is a good or bad thing. Anyone interested in the political side of the Cuba issued may feel free to start an "off-topic" thread and post there.


----------



## pedrodelrio (Nov 18, 2007)

Cam

I second that. That's what I try to do on cubacruising.net, though it isn't easy because politics taints the subject, no matter what your views.

Peter Swanson


----------



## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

camaraderie said:


> Perhaps going forward this thread should be restricted to discussions of Cuba as a destination and the LEGAL requirements for entry/exit rather than opinions on the political side or whether current US law is a good or bad thing. Anyone interested in the political side of the Cuba issued may feel free to start an "off-topic" thread and post there.


Thouroughly agree with you there Cam. Good of you to take that attitude given your feelings on the matter.

It does become pretty irritating that every time someone mentions the Cuba word it automatically devolves into a political rant. For those of us who do not suffer any legal ramifications should we decide to cruise Cuba that does become damned boring.

Political opinions should be kept isolated in Bedlam aka Off Topic.


----------

