# hunter 212 vs. US 21 vs. First 235 vs. MacGregor 26s



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Hello all,
1st post, long time lurcher. For the last year, been quielty shopping, gathering info with the humble (realistic?) objective of getting the best possible boat for my needs. 
Basically, that means an easy to sail (1st time owner) weekender that has enough necessities to spend 2-3 days on, with capacity of customizing it to my needs, and with enough sail qualities that I could improve on the boat's performance as my capabilities improve (i'm a bit of a spped freak/competitive personality)
Here's my short list:
2000-2002 Hunter 212 
1983 US Yachts 21
1988 First 235
1993 Macgregor 26s

Anybody have comments on these? suggestions? things to look for?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

If you're a speed freak for performance under sail... ditch the Macgregor 26. Most Macgregors have pretty pathetic sailing performance due to the compromises made to have it be a decent power boat. 

Personally, if I were you and looking to get a first sailboat and as competitive as you seem to indicate you are, I'd recommend getting a boat that is raced at a club level more. AFAIK, none of the boats you've listed is raced much, and none are all that good in terms of performance. Of them, the First 235, if it is a Bendytoy First 235 might be a good choice. 

It would help if you said where you would be sailing this boat...since different waters will often have different requirements. 

The Cal 21 or 25 would be a much better choice. The Cal 25 isn't really a trailerable boat however, so would probably be happiest in a marina slip.


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

Boy,
I agree with Saildog, those boats you have listed do not match at all what you have said you want.
The only one that would be good for 2-3 days is the Mac 26 - it's also low maintenance and of course sails like a powerboat with waterballast trying to act like a sail boat.
Mac's are good 'toe rail in the water' boats - all you have to do is sail without the ballast .

Not a single one of them is a speed demon. Speed demon's at that size do not have accomodations for overnight. 
Pick one.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I would agree with ChuckleR and S.D. on the Hunter 212, US Yachts 21 and the Macgregor 26s. I respectfully disagee in the case of the Beneteau 235 was actually sails very nicely and can easily be used for PHRF racing. With a PHRF rating of 195-198, the 235 has a rating that is only 6 to 9 seconds a mile slower than a one-design J-22. Not bad for a boat with the amount of accomodations found on the Beneteau 235. I have always found these to be nicely detailed small boats and one that has appealed to me whenever I have been aboard one. 

Jeff


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

I have to agree with Jeff on the 235. It provides a nice amount of space/ammenities below for a boat of its size and is relatively quick. I think it is a good combination of roomy/trailerable without getting too big to be practical.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Well, I unfortunately can't afford a mini Transat or ultimate 20  (nor a 40 footer for that matter), all of which might very well be overkill on Lake Champlain, btw...And I do need accomodations, if not for me, at least for the missus, so I can't get a Melges 24 
Of course I can only speak about things in theory here, as i don't have the experience you have, but I took the liberty of comparing PHRF, which, even if not fullproof, seems in general to be a good indicator of speed?
PHRF (straight from USSailing.org)
Beneteau WK: 195
Hunter 212: 216
US 21 (i.e. Pearson Triton 21): 201
Macgregor 26: 228 (not sure if S model would have same rating or lower)
Cal 21: 255
Cal 25: avg 220
J22: 177

So the impression I get here is thin is fast, even if sail plan is not large (j22), unless your boat can plane, then it's the best, but it needs big sail plan and good ballast for stability (mini transat and the like). 

Specs:
______________weight______length______sail plan_______Ammenities
Beneteau 235____2500_______23.5________250________Galley,Clsed head
Hunter 212______1800________21_________213________porta, galley opt
US 21__________1700________21_________224________porta, galley
Macgregor 26S___1850(*)_____26_________234________galley, clsed head
(*) w/out water ballast

Most small boats have higher PHRF ratings than the ones posted above, plus they are often older, have smaller sail plans, so I assume slower, more maintenance, less interesting ammenities, hence limiting my choices to these 4, w/honorable mentions to the Merit 23 and Kirby (22?).

As for speed, well I don't plan on racing anytime soon, or scare the living crap out of my GF at first, but if I can friendly pass other (bigger) sail boats on the lake, that would put a smile on my face. I know the Beneteau can do this, I've been on their fan site, but it seems bigger/heavier than what I feel I need/want. the M 26S looks nice and sleek, but I'm concerned about the boat's sailing abilities and speed (this is not the powersailor model though). The Hunter seems easy to learn/sail while still reasonalbly fast, has a nice big cockpit, and with flat bottom, and option to get a bigger headsail or spinnaker, seems capable of being far faster IMHO, but interior is limited and since newer is usually expensive. That leaves the US/Pearson 21, which at first glance seems to fit the bill nicely (heard it's very fast), but it is the oldest model of the bunch and they are quite rare...


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Another good boat you might want to look at is the Kittiwake 23.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

On your list I would also vote for the Beneteau 235. See JeffH's comments. A nice package, representing good value and decent performance. Clever dual-use nav-station/head. My least favorite aspect is the outboard motor, but that's common in boats this size and has some advantages too.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Two quick comments;

There is nothing particularly fast about the US21. They were loosely based on then popular IOR era designs and so the deep keel version went to windward pretty well for a boat of that era but are not all that fast on any other point of sail. 

And S.D. I don't know why you threw out the Kenner Kittiwake 23, but have you ever sailed one of these old girls? With a PHRF rating of 270-276, there is nothing fast about a Kittiwake. They were also a design that looked great in a brochure, but in real life everything from the length and width of the bunks, to the galley sink and icebox, was scaled down to a minature of real life so as to be next to useless except for people who are perhaps seriously height challenged. On Lake Champlain known for light air mixed with square waves and very big winds, the poor sailing abilities at either end of the wind range would nix the Kenner, as it would the Mcgregor and Hunter as well. 

Jeff


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

The outboard isn't really a problem IMHO. If you had an inboard on a boat this size, you'd lose a lot of the space used for accommodations. Having an outboard also means it is simpler to winterize or troubleshoot.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

have you looked at the San Juan 21? Granted quit being built about 85 or there abouts. PHRF IIRC is in the low 200's, but do not quote me on that one. They are a bit tippy initially tho, so that might throw it out for the GF.

Marty


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

*The Mac 26S is NOT the same as a 26X*

Everyone loves bashing the Mac 26 as if they all carried 50HP outboard engines and were really motorboats imitating a sailboat. The older versions of the Mac 26 (the 'S' model for instance) do not have a transom that will hold much more than a 10 HP engine AND you can not empty the water ballast (once filled) as you can in the motor boat models (X and M - which will plane after emptying the ballast with 50 horses pushing it along). 
I have sailed on the Mac 26 S and even though am not crazy about the way the boat looks I must say that it sailed pretty well for its size. The headsail (jib) is a bit undersized on my friends 26 S but it needs to be as the boat is still a little tender even with the water ballast full. This gives it some weather helm which is a little unpleasant for long runs. 
As far as comfort goes, I doubt any of the other model boats you are considering can match the Mac 26 S. Room enough between decks to sleep 6, enclosed head compartment, byo galley, pop top allows standing room for most. Another advantage this boat might have on Lake Champlain is that with the centerboard up it draws around 1 foot so you could explore more places with thin water. I think that this boat makes a pretty good camping platform and it is trailerable without a powerful truck given short distances.
I would not want to get caught on this boat in a howling wind or derecho on Lake Champlain but for normal light air use it is a decent boat - IMHO.


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

I don't think anyone was bashing. Besides, you said it all.


CalebD said:


> Everyone loves bashing the Mac 26 as if they all carried 50HP outboard engines and were really motorboats imitating a sailboat. The older versions of the Mac 26 (the 'S' model for instance) do not have a transom that will hold much more than a 10 HP engine AND *you can not empty the water ballast* (once filled) as you can in the motor boat models (X and M - which will plane after emptying the ballast with 50 horses pushing it along).
> I have sailed on the Mac 26 S and even though am *not crazy about the way the boat looks* I must say that it sailed pretty well for its size. The *headsail (jib) is a bit undersized on my friends 26 S but it needs to be as the boat is still a little tender even with the water ballast full*. *This gives it some weather helm which is a little unpleasant for long runs. *As far as comfort goes, I doubt any of the other model boats you are considering can match the Mac 26 S. Room enough between decks to sleep 6, enclosed head compartment, byo galley, pop top allows standing room for most. Another advantage this boat might have on Lake Champlain is that with the centerboard up it draws around 1 foot so you could explore more places with thin water. I think that this boat makes a pretty good camping platform and it is trailerable without a powerful truck given short distances.
> *I would not want to get caught on this boat in a howling wind* or derecho on Lake Champlain but for normal light air use it is a decent boat - IMHO.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Jeff_H said:


> Two quick comments;
> 
> There is nothing particularly fast about the US21. They were loosely based on then popular IOR era designs and so the deep keel version went to windward pretty well for a boat of that era but are not all that fast on any other point of sail.
> 
> ...


Thx for contributing Jeff, 
But if you don't mind me asking, why would the Hunter be awful in light air? it's very light, and has a ballasted centerboard, so it should be rather stiff and responsive. The one i tried in Florida sure seemed to be, although winds were NOT light that day. Of course it could use a bigger jib, but that can always be added. As for heavy winds, well, it only has one reef (could use a 2nd), but with that and the jib removed (or a storm jib), seemed pretty lively and still solid (15-20 knots that day). I won't go into spinnakers as I have limited experience...

As for the US 21, well, same goes: light boat, heard it was stiff and responsive, comes w/ full sails and spinnaker, what would make it slow downwind? and which small boats (19'-24' (or more if it's light)) would you see as being superior while still having a few interior comforts?

thanks!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

SharkBytes | Shark Sailing | Shark One Design | Shark Sailboat | Canadian Shark Class Association | International Shark Class Association


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Sailormann said:


> SharkBytes | Shark Sailing | Shark One Design | Shark Sailboat | Canadian Shark Class Association | International Shark Class Association


Once a Shark owner, always a Shark booster, eh, Sailorman?

Sharks may well be available in his area too.

I'm with you, the Shark was our first boat, and it's a great starter. But I'm not sure it can compete with today's boats like the Bene 235 in volume/accomodation, and it's likely no faster except perhaps in a hell of breeze downwind.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

> I'm with you, the Shark was our first boat, and it's a great starter. But I'm not sure it can compete with today's boats like the Bene 235 in volume/accomodation, and it's likely no faster except perhaps in a hell of breeze downwind.


There are a lot of things that the newer boats do better, but a Shark holds its value and just feels nicer underneath you than a lot of other craft.


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## mdbee (May 2, 2007)

*Weather helm*

I have found that the excessive weather helm was corrected by properly adjusting the mast. The Ida sailor rudder made a slight improvement as well.

It is too bad many of the posters here are confusing the earlier Mac 26's D or S (dagger board or swing board) which are collectively known as "C" (classic) models with the motor sailor models X or M.



CalebD said:


> Everyone loves bashing the Mac 26 as if they all carried 50HP outboard engines and were really motorboats imitating a sailboat. The older versions of the Mac 26 (the 'S' model for instance) do not have a transom that will hold much more than a 10 HP engine AND you can not empty the water ballast (once filled) as you can in the motor boat models (X and M - which will plane after emptying the ballast with 50 horses pushing it along).
> I have sailed on the Mac 26 S and even though am not crazy about the way the boat looks I must say that it sailed pretty well for its size. The headsail (jib) is a bit undersized on my friends 26 S but it needs to be as the boat is still a little tender even with the water ballast full. This gives it some weather helm which is a little unpleasant for long runs.
> As far as comfort goes, I doubt any of the other model boats you are considering can match the Mac 26 S. Room enough between decks to sleep 6, enclosed head compartment, byo galley, pop top allows standing room for most. Another advantage this boat might have on Lake Champlain is that with the centerboard up it draws around 1 foot so you could explore more places with thin water. I think that this boat makes a pretty good camping platform and it is trailerable without a powerful truck given short distances.
> I would not want to get caught on this boat in a howling wind or derecho on Lake Champlain but for normal light air use it is a decent boat - IMHO.


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## LakeEscape (Jul 18, 2007)

*SBJ review of 5 pocket cruisers*

Good review of some Good Old Boats.

1986 SBJ SAILBOAT SEA TRIALS

Fair Winds


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## djodenda (Mar 4, 2006)

Faster said:


> Once a Shark owner, always a Shark booster, eh, Sailorman?


Me too... Shark.... Good....


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

LakeEscape said:


> Good review of some Good Old Boats.
> 
> Fair Winds


nice article, also found this very informative web page (sailing for dummies?).
(add www to the following: ) catamaranvega.com/vega/sailing/01/theory.html
(sorry can't post links yet)

which got me thinking about the planing ability potential and stability of the boats I've been looking at

Stability:
Beneteau 235: seems to be approx 2900, incl 800-900lbs keel (depending if fin or wing), so about 30% of total weight
US21: 1700lbs, incl 200lbs lifting keel, so 12%
Hunter 212 (#confirmed by Hunter CS): 1800lbs, incl only 130lbs swing keel , so only 7% of total weight ! (ouch! ...initially thought keel was 500lbs but CS told me that was on the 216)
Beneteau if theory would seem the most stable, but you can't beach it, which is a neg on Lake Champlain waters
that low figure on the hunter worries though as it makes me think it couldn't take a larger headsail without modifying the keel...or am assuming wrong?
it's quite a challenge getting all the specs for all these boats !!

As for planing, seems it depends on your lenght/weight ratio, but I don't know what minimums a boat would need, still looking for answers here...

P.S. anybody have experience w/ Freedom 21s? nice ammenities, 1800lbs incl 500lbs fin keel, 180sq ft battened main, 105 sq ft genoa, phrf of about 230-240 though...


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## artbyjody (Jan 4, 2008)

Do not discount the likes of Catalina's 25 and 27's in your list.. often found for less than 10K... Very forgiving in terms of handling... enough comfort for two... not roomy to speak if you have 4 or more onboard.. - but for a 10K and under ... as good as anything on your list and probably more of them....


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

too heavy for me to trailer 
might be tempted by a Catalina 22.. there's one on sale nearby...
2250lbs (incl?) 550lbs swing keel, 210sq feet of sale, 240 phrf rating, nice interior layout


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Beneteau 235...off course...ditch the rest


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## AlpineSailor (Nov 3, 2006)

Check out the S2 6.7, 6.9, 7.9, Santana 2023, Mirage 236, if what you are looking for is go fast trailerables


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

AlpineSailor said:


> Check out the S2 6.7, 6.9, 7.9, Santana 2023, Mirage 236, if what you are looking for is go fast trailerables


these are all pretty rare though..
on top of the freedom 21, anybody have opinions on the precision 21?

I'll admit I'm starting to feel concerned about the size of these boats' v-berth, after reading a p21 review saying the v-berth was suited for children, not adults (i'm 6feet tall, GF is 5'8, both regular/slim build))


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## mdbee (May 2, 2007)

*Beneteau's are nice.*

Although I have never heard of a Mac doing this. I guess all brands have an occasional issue.

Beneteau First 235 - Rudder - Transom joint



Giulietta said:


> Beneteau 235...off course...ditch the rest


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

> Stability:
> Beneteau 235: seems to be approx 2900, incl 800-900lbs keel (depending if fin or wing), so about 30% of total weight
> US21: 1700lbs, incl 200lbs lifting keel, so 12%
> Hunter 212 (#confirmed by Hunter CS): 1800lbs, incl only 130lbs swing keel , so only 7% of total weight ! (ouch! ...initially thought keel was 500lbs but CS told me that was on the 216)
> ...


In the smaller boats - let's say under 22 feet, stability is as much a product of the crew weight and the hull shape as it is of the ballast, probably moreso.

The centreboards and lifting keels are not heavy. They can't be beacuse they have to be lifted manually. The boats are usually ballasted internally in order to compensate, and where you sit in them makes a big difference in their sailing and heeling characteristics.



> As for planing, seems it depends on your lenght/weight ratio, but I don't know what minimums a boat would need, still looking for answers here...


As far as planing goes... you'll find it happening with flatter-bottomed boats, and it's usually only with a spinnaker flying. It does not happen with a traditional, deep-keeled hull. You are not necessarily going to notice it happening from inside the boat, but it can be apparent when you are watching the boat from the jetty or committee boat, etc. No production sailboat planes to the same degree as a powerboat though.

I know that the Shark and the Thunderbird plane. I believe that some of the newer "sportboats" do as well, but I think that they might be a little "squirrly" to be good first boats.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

thanks for your imput, very informative !
I will keep the hunter on my list nonetheless. Lots of great boats out there, question is finding them on sale as they all seem quite rare:

Small/ Light
US/Pearson 21
Merit 23 (accomodations look pretty good)
Cal 22 looks nice inside as well
Kirby 23?

Heavier
Mirage 236
Beneteau 235 (not rare but usually expensive)
Santana 2023
Evelyn 25 or 26

Dare to dream (not rare but $$)
ultimate 20 or other antrim
rocket 22
ross 6.50
zero, super calin, yaka, etc. mini


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Both the F235 and Cal22 I was looking at have been sold, here's my updated short list based on what's available right now in my budget:
- Hunter 212
- Merit 22, 23
- US 21
Plus 2 interesting models that i've stumbled onto: the Holder 20 and the Rodgers 24, although I wonder about the interior of both, since specs/pics are hard to find. Holder seems super small, but fast (and low, makes me think she can't be a dry boat....). There's a Mirage 236 on sale but the interior's been stripped, so not sure I want to invest into refurnishing it.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I agree that any of the MacGregor classics, the 26S or 26D, would do just fine for your purposes. Neither is slow and neither has much if anything to do with the powersailor Macs, the X and M. They are very affordable, durable, good for mods with many web resources for them, easy to trailer, plenty of room including a queen size berth under the cockpit. I do not think you can find better value in the trailer sailer market than an S or D. Some of the negative comments above were founded on mistaken belief, i.e., that a Mac 26s is a powersailer, and can be totally discounted.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

zemaniak said:


> ....Plus 2 interesting models that i've stumbled onto: the Holder 20 and the Rodgers 24, .... Holder seems super small, but fast (and low, makes me think she can't be a dry boat....).


The Holder 20 is a fast fun boat but is really no more than a big racing dinghy and is mostly cockpit. I'm sure she's a wet boat in a breeze.

The literature says sleeps 4, but it's gotta be cramped and you'd be "camper cruising" for sure.

From pictures the Rodgers looks like a performer too, but with more emphasis on cabin space and a much smaller cockpit. Either looks easily trailerable, which fits that requirement of yours.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Well, 
unsuccessfull at finding an adequate US21, seems I'll be getting a Hunter 212. 
Trading (only a bit of, I hope) performance for the fun of the open transom and ease of use.

found one in Maine but Keel is damaged, and another one in Michigan which seems in great shape, but more$$ and further away (my marina is in VT). The Maine 212's bottom is painted, whereas the Michigan 212 is not (although it's a freshwater boat).

Is cheaper worth it? I mean the Keel is repairable, heck , I could even use the opportunity to add some weight to the centerboard (it only weighs 130lbs, figure I could go up to 200lbs)


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## labatt (Jul 31, 2006)

Sailing on Lake Champlain, I can tell you two things. First, don't worry about draft. There are very few places on Champlain where you have to concern yourself with water depth. Anything less than 7' draft and you'll be fine for 80%+ of the lake. You don't really want to visit the places that are shallower. Second, don't underestimate the lake. It blows over 40kts several times during the season, and can get some pretty square waves when the wind is blowing the length of the lake. Being 125 miles long, you can get some pretty good fetch north to south and vice-versa. In other words, weight is helpful as is the ability to deeply reef. It's not Lake Ontario or another great lake, but she'll get you just the same...

By the way, you might want to add the Precision 23 to your list. It's a nice combination between performance and cruising with decent accommodations for its size. It's a lot more traditional than similar sized Hunters, Catalinas's, etc.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Thanks for the info,
I'm starting to wonder if the Hunter 212 doesn't have some sort of internal ballast at the bottom of its hull , as some owners have said it's a pretty stable boat even if the centerboard is light. It would make sense since it's the same size and construction as the Hunter 216 but weighs 1800 vs. 1350 (plus the 216 has a 500lb hydraulic keel). That being said, here's hoping that a 70lbs of extra weight on the centerboard will make a difference....

So basically, I'll take a chance with the 212 for this year, while still keeping a eye out for other models, with the US21 still at the top of my list. I'll probably be spending most of this 1st summer on the inland sea anyway


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Zemaniak,

Your getting a Hunter 212? Cool. I enjoy mine. 

I have a Catalina 22 and the Hunter 212. The Catalina is in a slip and I trailer the Hunter.

You found my Youtube Video Sailing on Kaweah

Rick


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

The Hunter Dealer here in town told me on the Hunter 212 there are weights inside the hull to supplement the weight of the keel. 

Rick


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## artbyjody (Jan 4, 2008)

sailingdog said:


> Another good boat you might want to look at is the Kittiwake 23.


The whahh what? That is even obscure for even you!


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

artbyjody said:


> The whahh what? That is even obscure for even you!


A sure sign that somebody has finally reached to end of the internet and run out of information.


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## artbyjody (Jan 4, 2008)

bestfriend said:


> A sure sign that somebody has finally reached to end of the internet and run out of information.


G was right - its the end of Sailnet!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

got it!!

here it is:








Spent all day cleaning it, can't wait to get it in the water!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Congratulations..  what are you naming her?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

thanks, SD !

it'll be named: Z Piranha

will probably have new stickers done to replace the existing Hunter 212, in similar font and style, with the Z being where the splash is right now


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

gotta respect the experience on this board.

After a whole summer on my H212, much of the warnings from some of you were right on:

-no ballast makes her too tender and a tad scary upwind on Lake Champlain where wind can go from 0 to 20+ knots within the hour! when winds are quiet, she`s pretty quiet too. takes about 10 knots too really reach her potential, but once above 15-20, she needs a reef, so small window where she is optimal. she sure made me learn fast though !!! haha
-would need a spinnaker to see how she goes downwind, but can at least surf with the main in 10+ knots, although the spreaders easily get in the way and gotta be weary of the involuntary jibe 
- not that fast except maybe surfing as stated above. Didn`t pass too many larger boats 
- swing keel very forgiving.... when you hit shoals ! but again, won`t make that rookie mistake in the future.... however, keel is loud when hitting waves and some water comes in the cabin through the keel shaft
- cabin is small even for just 2, what with all the equipment and food, you`re constantly moving things around to make it liveable... let`s not even talk about when it rains !! 
- love the cockpit though, VERY roomy, like a big dinghy, open transom is great when anchoring close to a beach
- Light and easy to trailer, swing keel makes her easy to put in/get out of water. Mast needs 2 to step/unstep, although I think I might be able to use the trailer crank and chain to help
- all in all, more of a daysailor than a weekender, good looking and good choice for a beginner boat. Just not sure beginners should start on Lake Champlain. That Lake made the maine coast look easy!!( can you tell I`m already shopping for a new one?)


given my GF`s back problems, I guess I should be looking at a larger boat with bigger cabin and at least sitting headroom. I still think a mini or something like it would be perfect, but seems those types are only in Europe and are $$$$, so I might just have to get a 27-31 foot cruiser...worse case I can always buy a dinghy on top of that to have fun...!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I just purchased/rescued a 212 and I have yet to make contact with an actual owner of this boat. I have several questions. Here's a couple: Does anyone have any details about the 'spinnaker kit'. Does anyone know about the short stays that are about 3 feet up the mast? I would appreciate any information and/or pictures about these two things.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Hi there 
Nice picture, how does it sail up in the air like that?

I don`t have a spinnaker but if I did talk to a Hunter customer rep who was very helpful:

Kyle Boyette : [email protected]


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

She does kinda look like she's flying, huh?
That was a wild race and a good test of the boat.
We had to constantly adjust the main to keep her steady.

This 2001 boat was purchased new in 2002 and used once.
She sat abandoned in the slip for over 6 years.
She held together pretty well.
Had a few cracks we've taken care of.
Full of wasp nests.
I just couldn't pass up the deal.
I sold my Pearson Commander and bought the Hunter.
Some people think I'm crazy.

I sent an email to huntercomposite.com asking about the two things I mentioned above. We'll see what they say.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

she's a nice little boat, that`s for sure

I`ll admit I never felt comfortable making her heel like that, always felt something was gonna break off, max i went was 30% i think

Keep in mind spinnaker kit is expensive (2000$) and spinnaker itself is rather smallish (90sq feet iirc)

there`s also a small yahoo group founded by fairwind:

Hunter212 : Hunter 212


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

Boats all have their compromises. 
With length and width you gain space below but begin to not have a trailer-able boat. Speed is gained by sacrificing width and hull shape among
other things. 
I happen to really like my old Tartan 27' for its space below and its centerboard design which allows us to sail with a 3'6" draft with the board up. The PHRF of the T27 is around 240 (which is a tad high for a speed freak) but it does sail nicely with its nearly full keel and has room for 2 below. 
Another T27 owner is selling his boat for a song although it needs some significant work done to it. Here is his story:
Hi all,

It is time to part with my 1967 T-27. Hull number is 278 or 287, I'll
check tomorrow. She is just beyond my capacity to restore. She is at
the Tall Timbers Marina in Tall Timbers, MD on the Potomac. 
She comes with sails, a new rigid boom vang, a new profurl (improperly
installed by PO).
She is definitely a project, though. Chainplates are out, engine may
or may not run, missing two port lights,(new glass, no frame), most
interior wood removed for refinishing, (never finished), needs
cushions, wet deck core where chainplates penetrated the deck,
companionway hatch (the door thingy) completely disintegrated and
needs replacement, all electrical needs to be redone... You get the
picture...
The hull is in GREAT condition!
It is yours for only $500. (I'll negotiate...)
After one month, I turn the title over to the marina and abandon her.

It all makes me very sad because she was my very first boat, but I can
only deal with one boat at a time and I am living on my other one. 
Time to cut back.
****************
It is a bit of a stretch from the Chesapeake to Lake Champlain considering all the work that would need to be done to get a boat like this ready for a trip like that but I am pretty sure you would be happy with most of the compromises. It can fly a spinnaker and it positively picks up ground on downwind tacks on the race course with the board raised up.


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## CaptKermie (Nov 24, 2006)

haywhitdad said:


> I just purchased/rescued a 212 and I have yet to make contact with an actual owner of this boat. I have several questions. Here's a couple: Does anyone have any details about the 'spinnaker kit'. *Does anyone know about the short stays that are about 3 feet up the mast?* I would appreciate any information and/or pictures about these two things.


On other trailerables those short stays that are about 3' up the mast are usuall a bit higher say 5'-6' up the mast and we call them baby stays. Not sure on the Hunter but on some other boats (mine) they are there as part of the mast raising system. When winching the mast up they keep the mast from swinging too far to port or starboard so that the mast base plate does not get twisted, there is a lot of torque placed on a mast plate when it is extended over the length of the mast. Once the mast is up I can take those short stays off as they are not all that tight and are really no longer holding anything. Some folks leave them on as an extra grab wire to hold while up on deck. I suspect yours serve a similar purpose but not sure they should be removed on the Hunter trailer models.


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## checko (Oct 11, 2013)

, are the facts.....I purchased a 1989 Macgregor 26d for the sole intent on racing the boat.....David and Edwin Baxter of Baxter sailmakers of Norfolk Va. joined me in this quest.....They built 4 headsails....all mylar 155 down to a blade.....a spinnaker and a fully batten main.....the bottom of the boat was slick and a few other go fast items were put on the boat......anyway the boat was unbeatable.....even without the gift phrf rating of 216 it plain ran away from everything boat for boat.....and in light air we walked away from anything .......Last competitive race was in Elizabeth City....light air....some of out victims were a pair of Melges 24, a Tartan pride 27, , a J 27, a Farr 38, a Shock 35, and a bunch of other hot boats......we finished way ahead of all of these boats.....Up north that year we took overall 1st place in the Chesapeake Atlantic 3 years in a row.....two years we took line honors......over a lot of big boats that were raced very well.....this is all fact. The trophys are on display in Va beach at the lifesaving musieum......


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