# Sharing your faith while cruising



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*tread closed*

tread closed


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## Tartan34C (Nov 21, 2006)

Tom you said,
“Many of us are Christians”

Many if not most of us are not. In some parts of the world spreading the faith can get you killed or at the very least put in jail. Visiting a country as a guest means respecting the local customs and beliefs and trying to convert the locals may be considered bad manners. After all, if they are religious they probably consider their religion to be the one true word of God.

I was brought up with the understanding that religion was an accident of birth. If you are born into a Jewish family you think that’s the answer but if you are born into a Moslem family or Christian family then that’s the one true religion. If it works for you then fine and I have no problem discussing the different religions but don’t start out preaching.
All the best,
Robert Gainer


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## ccriders (Jul 8, 2006)

*Proselitizing*

And that is exacty correct Robert. Are Christians willing to listen to me tell them about the one true religion?
John


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Missionary said:


> Many of us are Christians and were given the Graet Commandment to Go Into all the world and share the good news about Christ. It is so much fun and enjoyable to share Christ with someone who if you did not share would never hear. This is not just the pastors or missionaries job, its all Christians. Or just going to a national church where you are anchored can be rewarding and a great way to share your faith with others. Having a prayer time and Bible study on your boat with other boaters where you are anchored. Visiting with other Christians in nationals homes. When Christians meet other Christians even when they don't speak the same language it is like meeting family.
> Tom


 Does this qualify as SPAM?


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

What you call "sharing", I call "a needless intrusion into my time and space". What you call, or rather misspell as "a Graet Commandment", I call hallucinated marching orders no different in quality from a homeless person's street corner rant. The fact that your handle is "Missionary", to my mind one of the most destructive, bigoted and ignorant of all avocations, tells me you and your kind only find happiness in pimping for your fictional deity's illusory game plan, because you only understand fear and retribution. Frankly, if your bacon-hating, foreskin-loving sociopath of a godlet existed, he'd magically manifest to every living person, and not rely on a pathetic army of boring pamphleteers to "spread the good news" about your slave faith.

Religion, like most fantasies, should be kept private. I promise not to tell you about mine if you'll shut the **** up about yours. In the meantime, I'll be cruising...away from well-intentioned mental cases who bleat about love and compassion...as long as it's _their _love and compassion.


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## tenuki (Feb 11, 2007)

Religion isn't the solution, it's the problem. I'm always happy to discuss this idea with faithmongers, so yes, please talk to me about it.


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## mpraca (May 12, 2001)

Fear is the mother of all gods. Nature does all things spontaneously by herself without their meddling. 
Lucretius 99-55BC


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

good gawd, I hope wombat don't see this...he'll get on a ramp about
"sky fairies" and all that mess....


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## toddrtownsend (Jun 13, 2006)

*Talk amongst yourselves.*

I agree it is much safer to not do this in foreign countries. Besides, Missionairies have done enough damage already. "Many of us" isn't me either.

I'm sure in casual conversation, you'll find who you can talk to or not. Be careful.

TrT


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## SailorMitch (Nov 18, 2005)

1) Shouldn't this be in the Off Topic category?

2) As a native Virginian, I am much chagrined by the Bible thumpers who have become so prominent in the state. But that's another story.

3) The only faiths I care to spread when I'm out cruising are the wind and Mount Gay rum (well, occasionally Goslings).


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Surely you jest...! Cap'n Morgan is the only rum to go...!!!


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

While I understand the reaction (and am not a practicing Christian) it is puzzling how many have spoken out rather vehemently on this and let the bigotry and racism etc. just slide by on other threads. 
I don't find others who want to share their faith threatening...just annoying. Racists, bigots and other extremists are a much larger concern.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

camaraderie said:


> While I understand the reaction (and am not a practicing Christian) it is puzzling how many have spoken out rather vehemently on this and let the bigotry and racism etc. just slide by on other threads.
> I don't find others who want to share their faith threatening...just annoying. Racists, bigots and other extremists are a much larger concern.


I only find it annoying as well Amigo...lets just "Sail On"....!!!


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## labatt (Jul 31, 2006)

USCGRET1990 said:


> Surely you jest...! Cap'n Morgan is the only rum to go...!!!


Many of us are Captain Morgan drinkers and were given the Great Commandment to Go Into all the world and share the good news about Captain Morgan's. It is so much fun and enjoyable to share Captain Morgan's with someone who if you did not share would never hear. This is not just the alcoholic's or drunkard's job, its all Captain Morgan's drinkers. Or just going to a national chain that has a bar where you are anchored can be rewarding and a great way to share your faith with others. Having a Captain Morgan's party and drink recipe study on your boat with other boaters where you are anchored. Visiting with other Captain Morgan's drinkers in nationals homes. When Captain Morgan drinkers meet other Captain Morgan drinkers, even when they don't speak the same language, it is like meeting family.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I lived in San Juan for two years and went to Baccardi's "Bat Works"
We could buy rum quite cheap there(no import tax)...the high dollar "Dark Rums" were but 8 bucks a quart. We did the "spiced fruit" thing with the watermellons many weekends...


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

USCGRET1990 said:


> good gawd, I hope wombat don't see this...he'll get on a ramp about
> "sky fairies" and all that mess....


See what ? <yawn> Big weekend, somewhat hungover. Heart is just not into Christian bashing this morning. 

Mind you Cam is on the money. It's amazing how some of us (mea culpa) get all hot and bothered by religious nutters who are simply annoying yet ignore some of the worse excesses of hatred that popo up now and then. Well said Cam.

ps - me reckon it does qualify as SPAM.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

....Ditto....expected more s**t....


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## mpraca (May 12, 2001)

I just got here recently... this group is not typical at all. 
Well, I for one have faith in cruising.


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## morganmike (Oct 31, 2006)

Oh ... my ... god.

Can I just say say I love you guys? What a great bunch of responses. Heartwarming, truly heartwarming, and I mean that from the black pits of my atheistic heart.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

bestfriend said:


> You're no fun, go back to bed.


Ah, if only. It's cold, wet and miserable in Sydney Town today. Good day for hungover marsupial to spend in bed but alas I'm desk bound.

I promise to crucify a couple of nuns and a brace of priests on the morrow.

OK ?


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## SailorMitch (Nov 18, 2005)

Okay, okay, okay-- I get the message. I need to add a bottle of The Captain to my ship's booze locker!


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## SailorMitch (Nov 18, 2005)

tdw said:


> I promise to crucify a couple of nuns and a brace of priests on the morrow.
> 
> OK ?


Reminds me of a joke I used at work on some union idiots who were pushing for a child care center in one of our buildings. I told them that finally, after much persuasion on my part, management had decided to put a child care center in their building. But to save costs, it was going to be run by Catholic priests. Never heard another word from them about it.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

By the postings I must be wrong, very few Christians here, what a shame. I just have one question? When you die and face God, what will you tell Him is the reason you sould be allowed into heaven? Please think about it.
Tom


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Missionary said:


> By the postings I must be wrong, very few Christians here, what a shame. I just have one question? When you die and face God, what will you tell Him is the reason you sould be allowed into heaven? Please think about it.
> Tom


Oh Eff off. What a stupid thing to ask a bunch of atheists. Dimwit. You might want to believe in your (hi there CGRet  ) bloody sky pixie but I don't. Now go away.


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## southerncross31 (Sep 16, 2006)

I drove by a church on the way to work on my boat~2 months ago. The sign said "when the end comes you will be judged by father god not mother earth". It occured to me that for most sailors this is not the case! I think the thing that is sad about most religions (aside of causing most wars) is that the followers are made to feel guilty for living. It is okay to abide by a code of morals and beliefs, it is another thing entirely to state that others will be judged according to your beliefs. People are offened by religious solicitations because they don't like to be judged. Religion is rapidly loosing popularity in most modern cultures for many reasons. The sad part of this is that along with it goes a code of morals that has helped to balance human desire with respect for others. 
If you really want to help fellow Christians than go find someone who is really down in the dumps, depressed or a drug addict, abused person or some poor corrupt soul, and take them sailing. Show them the better side of life and help them to heal. You can explain to them that God is there to help them, not judge them. Don't act like you are above everyone and have higher understanding though. Nobody likes that.


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## byrondv (Jan 6, 2007)

Missionary said:


> By the postings I must be wrong, very few Christians here, what a shame. I just have one question? When you die and face God, what will you tell Him is the reason you sould be allowed into heaven? Please think about it.
> Tom


I hope you will be able to face God and explain to him how you mannaged to push a group of people even further away from Him. I hope you realize you have done more harm to the image of your Savior then any athiest could ever hope to do.

"(1-2) But there were also lying prophets among the people then, just as there will be lying religious teachers among you. They'll smuggle in destructive divisions, pitting you against each other-biting the hand of the One who gave them a chance to have their lives back! They've put themselves on a fast downhill slide to destruction, but not before they recruit a crowd of mixed-up followers who can't tell right from wrong.

(2-3) They give the way of truth a bad name. They're only out for themselves. They'll say anything, anything, that sounds good to exploit you. They won't, of course, get by with it. They'll come to a bad end, for God has never just stood by and let that kind of thing go on." 2 Peter 2:1-3 (The Message)

You should be praying for forgiveness.

To everyone else:
As an agnostic who attends a protestant Christian church every so often in part of my search... I want to appologize for this... for both myself and the Christians who try to honestly follow the loving and accepting actions of Christ. This type of 'damnation by hell fire' talk is unaccetable, and I hope you will accept an appology for a fringe of what can and should be a group of accepting people (though all to often isn't).

- Byron


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I have. 
Hattii - well repair
Panama - working with teams with the Kuna Indians on the San Blas Islands for 2 1/2 years
Morroco- Prayer Walking
Trandad - visiting the poor door to door
Chile working in a boarding school
Costa Rica - building conference center
Brazil, Amazon River door to door visiting
Belize - camp for youth
Thailand - can't say
Honduras - building home for homeless children
My life has been spent for others

subject closed


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## mpraca (May 12, 2001)

Missionary said:


> By the postings I must be wrong, very few Christians here, what a shame. I just have one question? When you die and face God, what will you tell Him is the reason you sould be allowed into heaven? Please think about it.
> Tom


 From what I hear heaven is not all that it's craked up to be. There's no sex, no booze... the music is terrible... 
Tell me Mish, what in that deal did they offer you that caught your interest?


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

mpraca said:


> From what I hear heaven is not all that it's craked up to be. There's no sex, no booze... the music is terrible...
> Tell me Mish, what in that deal did they offer you that caught your interest?


Yah, Sure, but if you were a Moslem you could slaughter a few christians down here and have , what is it, seventy ? virgins up there. Then again you might just prefer an earthbound strumpet to a heavenly virgin. I know I would.


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## retclt (Nov 7, 2006)

I found myself out in the Gulf one night in 15 - 20 foot seas with lightning strikes the only way to see where the water met the sky. Wicked winds reeking havoc with the 32 foot aluminum lightning rod! Scariest night of my life! I truly thought I might not survive that night. I didn't pray to Captain Morgan or Mother Earth. I sent those prayers up where I thought they would do the most good. Yes I am a Christian but that doesn't mean I can’t enjoy some good rum with some sailing buddies and we do - often. It's always on board and all are welcome to share – without a sermon. By the way, I don't consider Captain Morgan very good rum - well maybe in rum balls or girly drinks. I have a friend, who doesn't believe in God, actually several friends that way, but this friend says he prays to him anyway . . . just in case. My dad, who met his maker at 600mph with a full bomb load said his fellow fighter pilots may seem nothing more than boozers and lady chasers but every one of them got religion at times in that cockpit. I imagine many of you have gotten a little religion on occasion if you've spent much time on the water. If you haven't, well, enjoy that rum. At least buy the good stuff.

One of my favorite stories is the one about renowned atheist W.C. Fields on his death bed. His best friend caught him reading the bible and asked what he was doing. Fields replied "looking for loop holes". Food for thought when you are alone, really alone. I'll bet the Missionary would be the first to call if you needed it and he's never met you.

I've enjoyed the heck out of this bulletin board. Never posted. Just enjoy all the knowledge and help ya'll share. I've learned a lot and appreciate every one of you guy's . . . and gals. Hope I haven't ruined any invitations to come aboard for drink or three should we ever cross paths. I just had to jump in to the fight. Man this is a tough room!


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## yotphix (Aug 18, 2006)

Retclt, you would be welcome on my boat. Just would be any religious person of any stripe. If conversation happened to turn to religion it could go there.
I can, however, assure you that when the s%*@ hits the fan and things look dire I am busy scheming a way out, and not praying! the god that was preached to me each night after dinner by my minister father is omniescent and loves all his creations so I figure he doesn't need me to tell him when I'm in trouble!
That god was also tolerant. Coincidentally enough, so am I. I'm sure we would get along fine...just like I do with the voices in my head!


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

retclt said:


> One of my favorite stories is the one about renowned atheist W.C. Fields on his death bed. His best friend caught him reading the bible and asked what he was doing. Fields replied "looking for loop holes". Food for thought when you are alone, really alone. I'll bet the Missionary would be the first to call if you needed it and he's never met you.
> 
> I've enjoyed the heck out of this bulletin board. Never posted. Just enjoy all the knowledge and help ya'll share. I've learned a lot and appreciate every one of you guy's . . . and gals. Hope I haven't ruined any invitations to come aboard for drink or three should we ever cross paths. I just had to jump in to the fight. Man this is a tough room!


Always amazes me, and I'm not putting you into this category btw, how many people suddenly find God when they are **** scacred or at death's door. Now if I were God and one of these tossers showed up on my doorstep I'd give 'em the bum's rush right smartly.

Oh and I know it's an old line but it also staggers me how many believers are so damn quick to thank the lord for saving one person from a plane crash. Not a word of critiscism for having just killed the oether 200 people, oh no, but praise the lord and pass the peanuts for the other.

My attitude is this, I don't believe that Jehovah exists, I don't believe that the Holy Spirit wafted on down from on high and gave Mary a good seeing too and I don't believe JC died for my sins. On the other hand if by chance Jehovah does exist I reckon he's a venal old bastard albeit with a somewhat bizarre sense of humour.

(terrible typing edited)


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## retclt (Nov 7, 2006)

I agree, when it hits the fan I'll be multitasking. Pull - Pray - Pull - sip - pull - pull - pull. I asked an Army Ranger friend (I have a lot of friends) how he preferred to hit the ground if both chutes failed. He said (while motioning) pulling and grabbing at his gear to make it work - never stop.

By the way, we have some Tequela and other concoctions from south of the border that may help with those voices in the head.


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## kptmorgan04 (Apr 10, 2007)

*tough crowd*

wow, a little bit surprised by the harsh reactions by many on here. This is a public board where people are allowed to say whatever comes to their minds, no one is forcing anyone to read or respond to a thread if you dont want to.

I believe in Christ as my saviour, but try to have my actions speak for myself and not my words. If anyone ever approached me, sure I would share my thoughts and beliefs, but I wouldnt and havent ever solicited anyone. I have good friends who are BIG time Christians, athiests, and various other religions and I dont judge them for what they do or do not believe, to each their own.

I enjoy a good drink or 3 or 10  as much as anyone and at times too much, I have fun, and occasionaly raise hell on the town and on the seas, but I think that it is the basic principals of any religion of treating people fairly and kindly that many sailors have anyway that is what mattes most. 
I just got finished reading "Dove" and above any religion or specific "god" I share his ending thoughts of a higher being and that the natural beauty of this world is amazing that hopefully as cruisers we can enjoy its beauty and different cultures and people that live in it to the fullest.


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

I have a million things to say about this subject, but all I can put into words at the moment is, be good to each other, god or no god.


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## SimonV (Jul 6, 2006)

bestfriend said:


> I have a million things to say about this subject, but all I can put into words at the moment is, be good to each other, god or no god.


Well said BF. This is where the Freemasons have got it worked out there is no wrong/right religion, just man who is free, just and believes in brotherly love.
to help those who need help, but only when asked.

By all means have your religion as atheisms is a religion in its self as is agnostic.

Just do not push your religion on me.


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## dmchose (Sep 5, 2003)

Thank you Missionary  
As a fundamentalist, I appreciate what Missionary has said. To those whom he may have struck a raw nerve with, our sympathy goes to you, wanted or not. Please understand. The followers of the "Teachings of Christ" are commanded to tell all who are willing or "have a open ear" to do so. It is also known and accepted by all followers of our faith that our time on Earth could very well end due to actions of non believers.11 of the original 12 met fates unpleasant,as well as dozens per day due to being followers of the Christian Faith. That is OK because we believe that our real home is not here on Earth but with the heavenly Father. The vehemence posted by a few here in the thread is sadly expected. 
So, if you want to hear what I or Missionary have to say or have questions pending about "our faith" then we will be honored and blessed to help within the best of our ability. If not, then we will fellowship in other thread areas that we have in common, with joy.
Masonic members who hold true to the obligations, understand this regardless whom their deity has hold of their heart.
Please note that the topic of this thread is " *Sharing your faith while cruising* " . It was not *" Slam those who share their faith while cruising "* . I like a cutter/ scutter rig though I look forward to learn how to sail a ketch one day. I seriously doubt if I posted a new thread " How to balance a cutter " most of the esteemed members of this Forum would refrain from " Why are you such an idiot sailing such a rig when only a sloop has the rights to the oceans we sail", or something to that effect.
With Love to all mankind:
Don


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

I just think you guys picked the wrong forum.
Trying to talk religion to a bunch of Rum Drinking Sailors was your mistake.


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## btrayfors (Aug 25, 2006)

Goslings? My god, Mitch...now THAT is blasphemy! 

Mt. Gay all the time )

For those interested and with minds open enough to explore why religion is getting such a hard time -- here and elsewhere -- I can recommend Sam Harris' little tome, "Letter to a Christian Nation". Quick easy reading, but you better have the antacids handy 

Bill


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## dmchose (Sep 5, 2003)

sailortjk1 said:


> I just think you guys picked the wrong forum.
> Trying to talk religion to a bunch of Rum Drinking Sailors was your mistake.


Hey now.. I am a Rum drinking sailor..well ...this weekend I did splurg for a bottle of Patron. If you drink with me on my tab, you drink the best or whatzzz left.


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

I met a guy who 'found' religion. But he specifically refused to become a "holly roller". He lets his actions speak louder than his words. He bought a large piece of land in Uganda and built a school. Provided education to kids for free. Most of the schools in Uganda are pretty expensive and unavailable to the poor. He's done this in other areas of the world also.

I read the resume of 'Missionary' and many of his entries were 'door to door visiting' while very little was actually doing anything.

Just like in many parts of life there are two types of religious, those who want to talk your ear off and those who actually practice the good aspects of religion.
The BS'ers give religions a bad name.

Shut up and get to work!


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## SailorMitch (Nov 18, 2005)

btrayfors said:


> Goslings? My god, Mitch...now THAT is blasphemy!
> 
> Mt. Gay all the time )
> 
> ...


Sorry, but I do enjoy the occasional Dark and Stormy, which doth require Goslings. Otherwise, my drinking habits are quite diverse. If it has alcohol, go for it!

I was born and raised a Southern Baptist (still have the emotional scars to show for it!) and all this reminds me of a joke about them: You can always tell a Baptist because he will speak to you on Sunday at church but ignore you when he sees you in the liquor store on Saturday.


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## ccriders (Jul 8, 2006)

Missionary said:


> By the postings I must be wrong, very few Christians here, what a shame. I just have one question? When you die and face God, what will you tell Him is the reason you sould be allowed into heaven? Please think about it.
> Tom


Well, at least we won't have to explain our idolatries.
John


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Actually, when one really gives it some thought, Heaven is going to be;

1) Very boring.

2) Sparsely populated.

3) And not for those that suffer from acrophobia.

Not to try to speak for the others here, but if there _is_ an after life, I'd personally much rather spend it down below with the likes of Dean Martin, Sam Kinison and dozens of hot strippers with low self esteem and questionable morals than with the likes of Falwell, Hastert and Mother Teresa.

I mean really, how frickin' unexciting would _that_ be?...........

RB


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## canuck (Sep 6, 2004)

"Love one another"To me, this sounds like a good idea. If you spread the gospel you might have to speak it as a last resort!
Canuck


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## Alden68 (Mar 21, 2007)

Support World Peace

Become an Atheist


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I used to be an athiest but it's not improtant enough to me anymore. Is there a label for that?


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

CapnHand, you're called a well-adjusted human being. I wonder how Missionary would like it if I came over to his boat and "shared" my agnostic beliefs with his wife and children.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

Missionary said:


> I have.
> Hattii - well repair
> Panama - working with teams with the Kuna Indians on the San Blas Islands for 2 1/2 years
> Morroco- Prayer Walking
> ...


Missionary,

I don't see Guyana on your list, although I have heard there may still be some vacant buildings standing in a particularly remote part of the jungle. Perhaps you could utilize them to house your ever-faithful followers - maybe even call them your Rainbow Family.

Just be warned though, grape flavored Kool-Aid may not be a big hit with the locals.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

SailorMitch said:


> 3) The only faiths I care to spread when I'm out cruising are the wind and Mount Gay rum (well, occasionally Goslings).


Testify, brother. Let the spirits enter the body. Hallelujah!


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## Joel73 (Apr 23, 2007)

Valiente said:


> What you call "sharing", I call "a needless intrusion into my time and space". What you call, or rather misspell as "a Graet Commandment", I call hallucinated marching orders no different in quality from a homeless person's street corner rant. The fact that your handle is "Missionary", to my mind one of the most destructive, bigoted and ignorant of all avocations, tells me you and your kind only find happiness in pimping for your fictional deity's illusory game plan, because you only understand fear and retribution. Frankly, if your bacon-hating, foreskin-loving sociopath of a godlet existed, he'd magically manifest to every living person, and not rely on a pathetic army of boring pamphleteers to "spread the good news" about your slave faith.
> 
> Religion, like most fantasies, should be kept private. I promise not to tell you about mine if you'll shut the **** up about yours. In the meantime, I'll be cruising...away from well-intentioned mental cases who bleat about love and compassion...as long as it's _their _love and compassion.


I have to second this.


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

TB,
Now don't go knocking Jim Jones. He's one of my heroes. I recently read that one of his parishoners in the People's Temple came to his S.F. office to tell him directly that he knew that Jones was sleeping with his wife, and he wasn't going to tolerate it. So what does do? He rapes the guy right there in his office. He's bopping the wife and raping the husband! Hoo-eee! You've got to respect that. He sees something, and he just goes right out there and takes it! Makes ya want to go to church.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Too lazy to search back, but maybe Missionary would like to comment on these. Because, (and unfortunately I think), this belief is held by more than a few people on the planet. Which frightens many of us.........

Rick

The J-Walk Blog: Creation Museum Opens Monday

BlueGrassRoots: Fun at the Creation Museum!!!!


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

sailhog said:


> . . . Makes ya want to go to church.


 Or Jonestown . . . those where the good ol' days.


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## CoralReefer (Jul 20, 2006)

Smoke enough reefer, add a peyote button or 2, relax with a Goosling and you'll see the whole trinity, father,son & holy ghost.


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

If I had just a fraction of Missionary's faith, I'd be able to upgrade to a motorboat.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Missionary said:


> By the postings I must be wrong, very few Christians here, what a shame. I just have one question? When you die and face God, what will you tell Him is the reason you sould be allowed into heaven? Please think about it.
> Tom


I have thought, and broke with the Catholics at age 10. Religion is generally anti-thought, you know, what with possessing a critical facility being the antithesis of faith.

Regarding the destruction of the Library at Alexandria:

"The monks, who rushed with tumultuous fury from the desert, distinguished themselves by their zeal and diligence ... In almost every province of the Roman world, an army of fanatics, without authority and without discipline, invaded the peaceful inhabitants; and the ruin of the fairest structures of antiquity still displays the ravages of those barbarians who alone had time and inclination to execute such laborious destruction."- Gibbon (Decline & Fall of the Roman Empire, chapter 28)

"For philosophy is the material of the world's wisdom, the rash interpreter of the nature and dispensation of God. Indeed heresies are themselves instigated by philosophy&#8230; What indeed has Athens to do with Jerusalem? What has the Academy to do with the Church? What have heretics to do with Christians? Our instruction comes from the porch of Solomon, who had himself taught that the Lord should be sought in simplicity of heart. Away with all attempts to produce a Stoic, Platonic, and dialectic Christianity! *We want no curious disputation after possessing Christ Jesus, no inquisition after receiving the gospel! When we believe, we desire no further belief*. For this is our first article of faith, that *there is nothing which we ought to believe besides*."-Tertullian of Carthage, early Church father.

And what, exactly, of "me" is supposed to survive corporeal death to meet your sociopathic sky-fairy? Isn't he supposed to have made me? Am I an example of shoddy workmanship for rejecting the Way of the Ungulates?

You see once again that this bastard offspring of Judaism and Mithratic religion is premised on threats and coercion: "Be good or else the eternally merciful Poobah will take away your right to play harp forever in his general direction".

That heaven you can keep. I prefer to throw in my lot with the living, the real and the now.

And to go sailing, far away from "missionaries".


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Missionary said:


> I have.
> Hattii - well repair
> Panama - working with teams with the Kuna Indians on the San Blas Islands for 2 1/2 years
> Morroco- Prayer Walking
> ...


Your life has been spent interfering, lying and, evidently, failing to learn how to spell the names of the countries in which you'd "witnessed". Thailand "can't say", indeed.

I would hazard a guess that your path has been motivated not by a desire to selflessly serve but to meet a sales quota for a defective product: "souls for Christ". As such, it is not based in altruism so much as fear not meeting said quota will mean a nosebleed seat at the end of days (another charming concept: why act as steward for a planet Yahweh's going to destroy "any day now?")

Good luck on the water, Saint Dubious...I'm surprised you require a boat at all.


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## GySgt (Jun 11, 2007)

Missionary said:


> By the postings I must be wrong, very few Christians here, what a shame. I just have one question? When you die and face God, what will you tell Him is the reason you sould be allowed into heaven? Please think about it.
> Tom


I would tell Him that we are saved by Grace and not by works. That Jesus Christ did not come to start a new religion, or condemn people. That we are ambassadors, not defense attorneys. That we are to be all things unto all men, and I have conducted myself accordingly, and taken heed unto myself, and gave an answer to people who have ASKED.

So as a whiskey drinking, hard fighting, rough neck retired Marine, I have no concerns when that time comes.

I also have put my life on the line and lost many friends so everyone can post their opinion and and have freedom of/from religion in this country. If you want to condemn and persecute people try a state sponsored religion like in Iran or Russia.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

SailorMitch said:


> I was born and raised a Southern Baptist (still have the emotional scars to show for it!) and all this reminds me of a joke about them: You can always tell a Baptist because he will speak to you on Sunday at church but ignore you when he sees you in the liquor store on Saturday.


That reminds me of:

"Why do Baptists frown on sex standing up?"

"Because it might lead to dancing."


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Not to seem like an internet arsonist by fueling this fire, but the quotes from a couple of parents the other day in my 'hood sums up the gawd debate for me rather succintly. 
You got love the believers...........

_El Segundo teen might lose his leg after hit-and-run 
Police seek black BMW with damaged right front-end damage. 
By Larry Altman
Staff Writer

The family of an El Segundo teenager expressed contempt Monday for the driver who ran him down near Dockweiler Beach and sped away without stopping to help him.

Seventeen-year-old Christopher Maschack is expected to survive the Saturday night ordeal on Vista del Mar but remains in danger of losing a leg.

Maschack's legs were shattered when the car's bumper struck him at the kneecaps. Hurled 17 feet into the air and onto the pavement, he broke a hand, an eye socket and a shoulder blade, but did not suffer other head injuries.

*"It's a blessing from God," said Maschack's mother, Jeannie Solana, visiting her son at UCLA Medical Center in Westwood. "He is very fortunate to be alive."*
.
Maschack's mother said one car stopped for the teens, but another car speeding at an estimated 70 mph raced around it.

Skid marks in the road showed the driver apparently swerved and slammed on the brakes to try to avoid hitting the teen, but kept on going after the accident.

"That's just wrong. You don't leave anybody in the street to die and just speed away," his mother said.

Maschack underwent 13 hours of surgery to save his life and repair his legs.

Doctors inserted rods to reconstruct the crushed bones and are closely watching his nearly severed left leg.

The boy who loves surfing and skateboarding might still require surgery to amputate the limb.

"He was trying to turn his life around and this has to happen. He's trying and trying and he doesn't deserve this."

*"I praise God that he's still alive," said his father, Tim Maschack.*
_

So let me see if I get this right. Neither parent disparges gawd for allowing their son to get hit by a car. But they heap praise upon him for allowing him to live the rest of his life as an amputee?

O.K. .Makes perfect sense now.............

RB


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

CapnHand said:


> I used to be an athiest but it's not improtant enough to me anymore. Is there a label for that?


Yes: "Bright".


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## SailinJay (Dec 6, 2002)

Everyone has to believe in something.

I believe I'll have another beer.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Hey, even the religious can provide a few laughs:

There are two monks sitting in a monastery. One says to the other "These
documents we're always hand-copying...they've always been hand-copied,
right?"


"Well, yes...of course," says the other monk.


"So, what if, in the past 2,000 years," said the first monk, "somebody
misspelled something or got a word wrong, and we've been copying that
mistake ever since?"


"well, that's a good question," says the second monk, "That could really be
a problem. Wait a minute, I know we have the original documents
somewhere in the basement. Tell you what--stay here and I'll go see if I can
find them."


So the second monk goes down into the basement. After waiting several hours, the first monk decides to go look for him. So he goes down there, and sure enough, he sees the other monk. But he's crying and beating his head up
against the wall.

The monk was crying out and saying "we forgot the 'R', we forgot the 'R' 
while beating his head into the wall.

The other monk touches his shoulder and says" What are you talking 
about?"

The crying monk looks at him through tears and says, "the word was 
C-E-L-E-B-R-A-T-E"

Heh.

A doctor, a lawyer and a priest are flying on a jumbo jet. There is huge flash of lightning and three of the four engines flame out. As the jet begins to rapidly descend, the captain comes over the intercom and says: "Ladies and gentlemen, it doesn't look good. I recommend you brace for impact!".

The doctor says: "Save the children!"
The lawyer says: "**** the children!"
The priest says: "Do we have time?"


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

A priest and a rabbi stumble out a bar late one night and head down the sidewalk to find their car. After a few minutes, the priest shouts out;

"I got a great idea. let's go screw some little boys!"

And the rabbi mumbles back;

"Out of what?"............


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## JT1019 (Aug 14, 2006)

The only religion spoken on my boat is “Lord be good to me. My boat is so small and the sea so large”
Anything else and you walk the plank.


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## cockeyedbob (Dec 6, 2006)

One day, we'll all know the truth ... or not.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

> By the postings I must be wrong, very few Christians here, what a shame. I just have one question? When you die and face God, what will you tell Him is the reason you sould be allowed into heaven? Please think about it.
> Tom


Tom - thought about it. Have decided you are an idiot.


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## johnhalf (Jul 15, 2006)

morganmike said:


> Oh ... my ... god.
> 
> Can I just say say I love you guys? What a great bunch of responses. Heartwarming, truly heartwarming, and I mean that from the black pits of my atheistic heart.


While I'm an agnostic, not an atheist, ( which is a distinction without a difference to Missionary ) I share your sense of wonder. I avoid these discussions like the plague because I am always outnumbered. Apparently not here!!
Almost gives me hope, Thanks Missionary!

Mitch, Tis true "which doth require Goslings".


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## phallo153 (May 4, 2007)

You are all wrong! >>>


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

phallo153 said:


> You are all wrong! >>>


About what?.........


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## Goodnewsboy (Nov 4, 2006)

If Christians are the problem, as so many seem to think, how is it that so many charities, hospitals and the original homeless shelters still have distinctively Christian names?

Why also do you suppose that the Founders spoke so plainly of Christianity as an essential element of American society?


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Goodnewsboy said:


> If Christians are the problem, as so many seem to think, how is it that so many charities, hospitals and the original homeless shelters still have distinctively Christian names?
> 
> Why also do you suppose that the Founders spoke so plainly of Christianity as an essential element of American society?


That many Christians are fine people who do good works is not open to dispute. Fine people can be just as deluded as tyrants after all.

On the other hand doing good works and shoving your belief system down other peoples throats are not one and the same thing.

As to the founding fathers I'm not from the US so that means nothing to me but who's to say that the founding fathers always got it right ?


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## Alden68 (Mar 21, 2007)

Good news -I don't think anyone would deny that certain religous organizations provide a vehicle for decency to be spread about....especially the mormons who get to have multiple wives.....but I think the problem that most people here have is with the factions of religion that adopt a fundemental approach which cripples the original intent or "read between the lines" nature of religion which should be a personal quest.....not a personal crusade IMHO


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## johnhalf (Jul 15, 2006)

Goodnewsboy said:


> If Christians are the problem, as so many seem to think, how is it that so many charities, hospitals and the original homeless shelters still have distinctively Christian names?
> 
> Why also do you suppose that the Founders spoke so plainly of Christianity as an essential element of American society?


I really should resist, but I can't.

No one here has said that nothing good was ever done by Christians or in the name of Christianity. The argument runs along the lines of has there been more good than bad? 
As for the founders, consider if you will their temporal context, what would almost anyone think when confronted daily by the incomprehensible? Fortunately we live in a time where much more is known. Oh and when referring to the believes of the Founders you should, if time allows, actually study some of them. You will find that while belief in a God was almost universal, some of their feelings about religion and religious fervor, might not be to your liking


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## Goodnewsboy (Nov 4, 2006)

Hello Alden68:

Thank you for the admission, even if you could not resist the inclusion of the slur concerning the Mormons.

I was not speaking of "religions" but of Christianity, and the historical fact that the Biblical instruction to "love your enemies" is behind the founding of many charitable works, some of which continue to this day. I just thought, as you seem to agree, that this historical fact ought to be recognized.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Goodnewsboy said:


> ....how is it that so many charities, hospitals and the original homeless shelters still have distinctively Christian names?


Just as many don't as do. Charity isn't a Christian quality, it's a human one.



Goodnewsboy said:


> Why also do you suppose that the Founders spoke so plainly of Christianity as an essential element of American society?


Historicaly they were statesmen, but they were politicians at the time. I wasn't there, but I'd guess that they did it mostly to get votes.

How did you get around to discussing American society? We we discussing cruising and what part religion plays in it, or not, for each of us.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Goodnewsboy said:


> If Christians are the problem, as so many seem to think, how is it that so many charities, hospitals and the original homeless shelters still have distinctively Christian names?
> 
> Why also do you suppose that the Founders spoke so plainly of Christianity as an essential element of American society?


Well sit back and I'll tell you, GNB. First off, X-tians aren't THE problem, but A problem, especially when forcing their will and beliefs on people like most of us, the intelligent and informed.

Next, the reason the Church is involved in helping the poor is because they need more donors and costituents. Rich people are inherently more educated and can see through the propaganda that emits from the Vatican, and ergo from the lying the mouths of their soldiers. They usually did not become wealthy by being ignorant. Cardinal McPhoney is our crown jewel in So Cal in that regard, hiding child molesters, church assets and pushing his pro immi agenda through like a drunken priest at a Scout jamboree. The Church, like the Dems, need blind mice with some extra cash to swell their coffers and voting blocks. They are basically whores, but without giving the sexual gratification that most whores provide. OK now?..

And lastly, the F/Fathers had not a clue about evolution, Darwin and anthro science. Hence, they could only act upon their insticts and _knowledge _passed down to them from the Dark Ages. Hard to give reviews on the latest Ferrari, when it hasn't been invented yet, yes?

Hoope that sums everything up for you. We'll be awaiting your replies. And when you do so, please inform us non-believers exactly what gawds plan is, will you? 'Cuz the current one seems to be in need of some fine-tuning, if not a complete overhaul..........

RB


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## Alden68 (Mar 21, 2007)

Good news - No slur intended...just pointing out that some times religion comes up with some great ideas.

And yes I do agree with you. While I am not religious myself, I do not know of many organizations that are based on and committed to helping those less fortunate. Sure there are many charitable groups, but who has access to the kind of capital that say the Catholic church has? When that $ is put to good use, and not hiring defense attorneys, it can truly be a "wonderfull" thing.


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## danjarch (Jun 18, 2007)

I had resisted reading this thread for days , but finally decided to see what was going on here. Wish I hadn't.


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## phallo153 (May 4, 2007)

RickLaPaz said:


> About what?.........


You have to click the link to find out. Don't bother if you are close-minded to The Truth. >>>


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## Goodnewsboy (Nov 4, 2006)

Hi RLP:

You must have had a horrid experience in Sunday school.

It is not my intent to defend those like your Cardinal McPhoney (whoever he is) who pretend to be Christians.

You suggest that Christianity performs charitable work to gain donors and "constitutents" (whatever they are); how many donors do you suppose were gained by,for example, Mother Teresa's lifetime of work in India? Do you suppose that her efforts may have cost her anything? Or was she merely another McPhoney?

(For background, I am not a Roman Catholic.)


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## mpraca (May 12, 2001)

The founding fathers have been hijacked by the fundamentalists who spread lies. They were the wisest most liberal minds of the time. These are quotes from them and others. Draw your own conclusions.

The clergy believe that any power confided in me will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly.- Thomas Jefferson 

God is an essence we know nothing of. Until this awful blasphemy is gotten rid of there will never be any liberal science I the world. - John Adams 


My earlier views on the unsoundness of the Christian scheme of salvation have become clearer and stronger with advancing years. -Abraham Lincoln 

I have seldom met an intelligent person whose views were not narrowed and distorted by religion. - James Buchannan 

Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful. - Seneca 4-65 AD

I don't know that atheists should be considered as patriots, nor should they be considered as citizens. 
- George H. W. Bush


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Thanks, Mpraca, for pointing out that the U.S. Founding Fathers, while products of their age, were neither particularly Christian nor particularly religious. Coming as they did from European societies where religious wars of unprecedented savagery and horror had shaped the previous three hundred or so years, they wanted no part of public faith, no Puritanism, no Popes and certainly no "established church".

Most of them, in fact, were Deists, an Enlightenment quasi-faith most akin to agnosticism tempered with fairly abstract philosophical notions drawn from Freemasonry. Deism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Currently (as of 2007) there is an ongoing controversy in the United States over whether or not America was founded as a "Christian nation" based on Judeo-Christian ideals. This has spawned a subsidiary controversy over whether the Founding Fathers were Christians or Deists or something in between.[32] Particularly heated is the debate over the beliefs of Richard Hedrick, Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, and George Washington, for some of whom the evidence is mixed.[33] However, Benjamin Franklin wrote in his autobiography, "Some books against Deism fell into my hands; they were said to be the substance of sermons preached at Boyle's lectures. It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist."[34]"

My favourite Deist, besides Tom Paine, was Thomas Jefferson, who noted: "Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burned, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make half the world fools and half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the world"- from _Notes on Virginia_.

It is also instructive in light of your current president's bleating about god and prayer that in its early days, the United States government was not afraid to separate its governmental role from a specific religious path. The 1796 Treaty of Tripoli states, in Article 11:

"_As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries_."

Official records show that after President John Adams sent the treaty to the Senate for ratification in May of 1797, the entire treaty was read aloud on the Senate floor, including the famous words in Article 11, and copies were printed for every Senator. A committee considered the treaty and recommended ratification, and the treaty was ratified by a unanimous vote of all 23 Senators. The treaty was reprinted in full in three newspapers, two in Philadelphia and one in New York City. There is no record of any public outcry or complaint in subsequent editions of the papers.[2]

Treaty of Tripoli - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Those were the days, eh?


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## mpraca (May 12, 2001)

Thanks Valiente. It is a lot easier to find coherence in the quotations of men than the quotations of God that can be used to sustain any point of view from human sacrifice to the slaughter of unbelievers. Of course, that God speaks the words that humans put in his mouth for their momentary convenience, when they did not have the credibility to own them.


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## yotphix (Aug 18, 2006)

Wow...that's a little exhausting to read the whole thread again. Having done so, I must say that I always liked this place, but now I like it just a little more. It is good, and a little rare to hang out with so many people who have clearly given a little more than the usual thought to matters of religion and spirituality. It is also encouraging to see that people here, who are largely decent and generous folk, are so not because they are frightened of a god, but because they see that it makes the world a better place.
Gives one a little hope.
As far as the OP's question...it is obvious from the responses that when prompted, each person here is more than happy to share their views with others. Most aren't christian, as he seems to have expected, but if he is a person who thinks about his faith rather than lapping it from a saucer, he will appreciate the dialogue.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Ding ding ding! We have a winner..............


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Yay... someone believes in the Flying Spaghetti Monster...


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

Miguel, I wish I wouldn't have thrown out the chain email that a family member sent to me. It had quotes from the founding fathers, saying the exact opposite. I will try to wrestle it up from them. It will good to compare and figure out.


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## mpraca (May 12, 2001)

BF, I hope they don't say the COnstitution was written by God. But it would be interesting to see them, because in those days they were leaders, not politicians, and therefore more coherent with their beliefs.


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## chris_gee (May 31, 2006)

Hmm. If someone has some belief thats nice. What gets me is the presumption I don't and their's is better. I guess that is ok til I say "go away". Most seem to accept that. Nice to see americans won't get involved in religious disputes.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

The title thread "sharing", right? So it should be like a pot luck; everyone is welcome to bring their beliefs to the table and we all share.

Here is an interesting observation of mine...
The people who devote their lives to their faiths for little or no gain - monks or other "holy" folk who live simply, practice deep meditation and perform mundane duties (farming, cleaning, cooking, etc) exist in almost every religion and are generally very tolerant of each other. There are also religous leaders in nearly all religions that live elegantly and their sole means of support is contributions from their congregation. There tends to be less tolerance in this group (with some notable exceptions; there are some good people trying to change systems from within).

I believe all rivers lead to the sea, though there are backwaters. There are many mountains to climb and the view from the top from any of them is about the same, but beware of false summits. I am happy to share my beliefs with others as long as there is mutual respect.


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## sailorjim99 (May 1, 2006)

*Wow!!!*

Wow,,,Guys

This is actually the largest thread I have read from start to finish.

It was riviting reading. 
Do you think MISSIONARY got the message?

As someone who does not live in America, it came as a shock. 
I was raised on American shows like "Leave it to Beaver" , "Father knows best" , "Dennis the menace" and who could forget "The Waltons" and "The Andy Griffiths Show".

You mean to tell me it was all a conspiracy by the United States to send the free world into a feeling of well being and security by making believe that America was right because God was on their side?

Oh Lord, wont you buy me a Mercedes Benz so I can show these guys JUST how wrong they are.....PLEASE, PLEASE, PRETTY PLEASE....

Just wait untill Jimmy Swaggart hears what you all said. You are in real big trouble now..

So guys, keep the faith.

Jim

P.S. I thought TDW was very reserved in his reply.
You didn't shut him down for something when I wasn't looking, did you?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Nope....wombat hunting season doesn't open for another week or so.... july 1 I believe is the start date.


sailorjim99 said:


> Wow,,,Guys
> 
> This is actually the largest thread I have read from start to finish.
> 
> ...


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

> I am happy to share my beliefs with others as long as there is mutual respect.


I promise to respect any views you may hold regarding boats, boating, sailing, weather, fibreglass, wood, metal, marine electronics, or cruising with unusual companions. I may not agree with them, and may respond with gentle (usually) ridicule or outright contradiction, but those are the subjects that I hope to see discussed here, and that I believe are appropriate here.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

mpraca said:


> Thanks Valiente. It is a lot easier to find coherence in the quotations of men than the quotations of God that can be used to sustain any point of view from human sacrifice to the slaughter of unbelievers. Of course, that God speaks the words that humans put in his mouth for their momentary convenience, when they did not have the credibility to own them.


I still don't get the whole "Abraham, prove you love me by killing your son...NO, MAN, JUST MESSING WITH YA!" or "Job, prove you love me (or are a clueless dupe) by enduring vast hardships and ending up as whalebait...NO, MAN, JUST MESSING WITH YA!" or "Yeah, my magical son has to die to be a sin sponge for the rest of you losers....NO, MAN....."

Sense a pattern? It's called sociopathy, with marked sadistic elements. Probably too heavy a concept for the sunstroked Hebraic shepherds of 1,300 B.C. who hallucinated this crap (and all the sand-blasted, self-righteous "prophets" that followed, in a depressing pattern, until Muhammad and his cheerful little revisions), but Yahweh/God/Allah is a twisted little bastard, and unworthy of all that attention he craves....not to mention the Mount Ararat-sized heap of foreskins snipped to mark some sort of "covenant" for the last 30 centuries. What's with that? What sort of contract needs to involve cock mutilation? What's wrong with a simple handshake?

As for Jesus, well...nice guy, but the only woman he knows aside from the mother he lived with until he was 30 is the town bike, and who hangs out with 12 job-leavers and family abandoners. Personally, I think he made some good points, even if he attributed them to his celestial dad, the sort of character who would knock up a virgin with a ghostly rooting, but his followers seem to have missed the message, by and large.


----------



## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

arbarnhart said:


> The title thread "sharing", right? So it should be like a pot luck; everyone is welcome to bring their beliefs to the table and we all share.
> 
> Here is an interesting observation of mine...
> The people who devote their lives to their faiths for little or no gain - monks or other "holy" folk who live simply, practice deep meditation and perform mundane duties (farming, cleaning, cooking, etc) exist in almost every religion and are generally very tolerant of each other. There are also religous leaders in nearly all religions that live elegantly and their sole means of support is contributions from their congregation. There tends to be less tolerance in this group (with some notable exceptions; there are some good people trying to change systems from within).
> ...


A reasonable post. I think few people are enemies of faith or belief, even though many accept the possibility that it's a form of delusion, because it's essentially a private pursuit. Others don't mind religions of the quieter, non-proselytizing sort: Ba'hais, Quakers, Wiccans and Jews have never knocked on my door, offering up a sales pitch for their particular interpretations of Deity. Consequently, it is of little concern of mine what those people believe, because their faith doesn't "want me" or need to "save me" from some persistent moral stain splashed about when Adam fell off a dinosaur in the pre-Pharonic age. The political interests of Jews concerning Israel is another thing, but surprisingly, Israel isn't about Judaism, and never was, and many Israelis today are strong Zionists without being observant Jews. Funny, that.

But you are right in your comments, and I wish more people would share without assuming the default position that "I am right and you are deluded/heretical/in a state of "sin" (whatever the hell that is)".

We've had quite enough of that sort of talk the last few thousand years, and it's religious extremism that has brought us, in part, to our current sorry path, where we are bickering about sky fairies and insults to the mouthpieces of sky fairies while the world is becoming ever filthier, hungrier, more densely populated and less equitable...what a stupid bunch of monkeys!

Not to mention how all this blather cuts into the sailing time....


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## equitiman (Jul 1, 2004)

Valiente said:


> We've had quite enough of that sort of talk the last few thousand years, and it's religious extremism that has brought us, in part, to our current sorry path, where we are bickering about sky fairies and insults to the mouthpieces of sky fairies while the world is becoming ever filthier, hungrier, more densely populated and less equitable...what a stupid bunch of monkeys!


Wow so many good points made on this thread...but I like this one the most...


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## toddrtownsend (Jun 13, 2006)

As for the Founders, I always thought that "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness flew in the face [pun intended] of "turn the other cheek."

Whether or not they believed or didn't they set out a system [now corrupted] of government "for the people by the people" in direct rejection of the divine right of kings. Regardless of how the Founders believed, they set up a system of government that did not rely on anything unearthly at all.

TrT


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## ReverendMike (Aug 1, 2006)

"Would Jesus Wear a Rolex?" - The Cluster Pluckers 

(Oops, my bad, thought i was in the "song chain"...)


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## lgherb (Jul 2, 2006)

Goodnewsboy said:


> If Christians are the problem, as so many seem to think, how is it that so many charities, hospitals and the original homeless shelters still have distinctively Christian names?
> 
> Why also do you suppose that the Founders spoke so plainly of Christianity as an essential element of American society?


I am amazed at how ignorant most Americans are of the "Founders." It seems that the "Christian" political groups have an agenda to obfuscate the truth by erroneously portraying the "Founders" as a cohesive group of devout Christians who set out forge a "Christian" nation.

In actuality - though there were some devout Christians who are considered "founding fathers" of the country - the "Founders" were very much like what we see in politics today: a often oppositional collection of divergent thinkers with a wide range of beliefs and agendas. Many of the "Founders" were not "Christians" at all, but rejected organized religion altogether as a relic of an "unenlightened" era in the past. Yet others were adherents of "Deism", which was a belief in an ultimate creator who did not meddle or care about the daily lives of people.

The "Founders" of the nation were all products of the Enlightenment who held European governments as failed models of government that used force and religion to keep wealth and society stratified along lines of genealogy instead of merit. The "Founders" almost unanimously feared having religion and government intertwined.

The country's legal system was not founded on biblical principles, but was founded on the Roman Republic and Greek Democracy (both very polytheistic societies).

Though the settlement of the colonies a couple hundred years prior to the American Revolution was achieved in a large part by devout religious groups seeking to escape persecution for their beliefs in Europe, there were also groups settling the colonies for nothing more than a chance to make money.

Just as societal mores have generally changed in the last couple hundred years judging by today's standards, so too had they changed between the time the "Puritans" landed at Plymouth Rock and the eve of the American Revolution arrived.

Certain religious groups today have a clear agenda of attempting to replace historical fact with bedtime fiction in portraying the settlement of the colonies and the founding of our Republic as one unified, Christian-driven destiny when in fact it was really a collection of periods with diverse driving forces. Other pseudo scholars could just as easily pick entirely different evidential motivations as root causes of the nation's genesis.

Lgherb


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## danjarch (Jun 18, 2007)

This isn't limited to certain religious groups. There is an old adage " he who controls the past controls the future. " as well as " the victore wrights the history ". Rewriting the past to change the perception of an event, movement, product or company is really common


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## sidiag (Jul 5, 2003)

After 110 posts 
Nobody's views will be/have been changed - lets move on
- - - - - - - -


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## Siamese (May 9, 2007)

I've found a Christian will screw you over just as fast as a non-Christian. Why not just keep your faith to yourself? If you feel the need to discuss online go to the appropriate website.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Siamese said:


> I've found a Christian will screw you over just as fast as a non-Christian. Why not just keep your faith to yourself?* If you feel the need to discuss online go to the appropriate website*.


After much thought and analysis, I can not see where the fun in that would be.........


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## ReverendMike (Aug 1, 2006)

sidiag and Siamese,

Please accept our apologies. This is more of an 'off-topic' thread that got away. As such, and noticing that you two are too civil to engage in the childish behavior that passes for 'discussion' in that arena, please see the "Off-topic FAQ's" that I recently posted. It will explain (after a fashion) why this thread will continue long after it loses all coherence and relevance, probably declining into personal attacks and vitrol.

Perhaps someone should ask a moderator to move this to the 'off topic' arena before any more of the 'normals' are disturbed&#8230;.

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/off-topic/34054-off-topic-faqs.html

(NB - any sarcasm that may or may not exist in the above post is NOT directed at those to whom the post is actually adressed)


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## CoralReefer (Jul 20, 2006)

12 pages of crap. No such thing as a Christian only hypocritical sheep. Show me 1 just 1 person who has no prejudice, loves everyone on this planet, who would give everything he or she owned to someone who needed it more, who would die for another human and not take another life, who would loose it all to refuse to fight or go to war, who has not harmed a single creature on this planet, or who has always abided by the golden rule. Every person who has ever gone to war and taken life did not turn the other cheek, did not listen to what God said but instead put their government ahead of God. To all of you I say Bullshit, your a hypocrite and whatever religion you belive in is crap.


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## ReverendMike (Aug 1, 2006)

(wow, that was faster than i expected...)


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

I believe in SolarStiks, and that they can perform _miracles!_


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

CoralReefer said:


> 12 pages of crap. No such thing as a Christian only hypocritical sheep. Show me 1 just 1 person who has no prejudice, loves everyone on this planet, who would give everything he or she owned to someone who needed it more, who would die for another human and not take another life, who would loose it all to refuse to fight or go to war, who has not harmed a single creature on this planet, or who has always abided by the golden rule. Every person who has ever gone to war and taken life did not turn the other cheek, did not listen to what God said but instead put their government ahead of God. To all of you I say Bullshit, your a hypocrite and whatever religion you belive in is crap.


Wow. All of a sudden I feel articulate, yet subtle.

Thanx........


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

*may I kindly remind you all that this is....*

*SAILNET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*

This is FANATISM.....not religion.....


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

CoralReefer said:


> 12 pages of crap. No such thing as a Christian only hypocritical sheep. Show me 1 just 1 person who has no prejudice, loves everyone on this planet, who would give everything he or she owned to someone who needed it more, who would die for another human and not take another life, who would loose it all to refuse to fight or go to war, who has not harmed a single creature on this planet, or who has always abided by the golden rule. Every person who has ever gone to war and taken life did not turn the other cheek, did not listen to what God said but instead put their government ahead of God. To all of you I say Bullshit, your a hypocrite and whatever religion you belive in is crap.


I think Mahatma Ghandi and Mother Teresa both fit this description pretty well.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Missionary?
"I just have one question? " You're just SO SURE THE UNIVERSE WORKS YOUR WAY. Well, most of the world thinks you and your god are wrong, false, mislead, or even the Devil Incarnate under another name. Take the smug self-rigtheousness and the preaching and the prosletyzing, and peddle it where someone else appreciates it.
Personally, I get awfully pissed off by your kind trying to tell me that MY GODS are wrong and YOURS MUST BE RIGHT. That's a god way to start a fight. Lead by example, not by trying to cram your philosophy down other throats.
Have your God give me a written explanation and apology for the Crusades (first million victims were Christians along the route to Jerusalem), the Inquisitions (plural), the forced conversions at swordpoint, the massacres of the south american peoples, and then I'll let him make a direct appointment to speak to me.
Till then, the only use I have for a missionary is to have him cubed and cooked in the big cannibal stewpot. Um Um, missionary stew! Glad that there's SOME good purpose for you people.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Originally Posted by Goodnewsboy
."...how is it that so many charities, hospitals and the original homeless shelters still have distinctively Christian names?"

Gee, maybe because alleged Christians, or people pretending to be Christians, forgot that real charity is often and best done ANONYMOUSLY for the sake of doing it, and not for the sake of bragging about having done it?

And who was it, the Shriners? WIth those wonderful burn hospitals? That got into a mixup with the IRS a couple of years ago because the local chapters were doing everything in cash and without keeping proper records, and there were suspicions of extreme amounts of money getting lost along the way?

Gods are big boys, they can speak for themselves. Don't need any PR flacks to lead the way and stick their names on buildings for them.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

hellosailor said:


> Till then, the only use I have for a missionary is to have him cubed and cooked in the big cannibal stewpot. Um Um, missionary stew! Glad that there's SOME good purpose for you people.


Funny story on NPR the other day regarding translating the Bible into some other languages, where the word for sheep doesn't exist. The word often used in its place was pig... and in most of those cultures, cannibalism was not too long ago a common practice, and man was referred to as "long pig". Rather fitting, don't you agree???


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

sd, there are apparently a couple of animals in the various lists (i.e. what's kosher) that are simply transliterations into English. No one knows what the original critters were in some cases. So, sheep, pig...no big deal. Most of that stuff is supposed to be latter-day reforms, designed to force the people to remain wanders rather than allowing them to settle down. (You can't wander around like the Bedouins do when you're trying to drive pigs--they just won't make it.)


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## h16Sailor (Mar 7, 2007)

I have hesitated to come to this thread, 
i find people in Alabama talk about work, their children or religion and this is the extent of their abilities to converse.
Glad to see i have nothing to fear and you sailor guys and gals have more topics to to discuss

"mind is forerunner of all conditions (good and evil)" Gotman Buddha


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Indeed, it is a worthwhile thing to consider the divine in all of us, and since I am a dyed in the wool polytheist I have more fun at dinner parties than most Christians. After all, I don't have the dogged, mundane insistence on one simplistic answer with which to bring dinner conversation to a screeching halt. It's more fun to dine with Hindus (hundreds of gods!), Jews, and animists without the wheedling insistence from Christians and Muslims that theirs is the only way. Yahweh or the Highway? Bless the Gods, with thanks to Odin the All-Father for a sailing world where the Gods are as diverse and widely scattered as my horizons.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

After finally slogging through this hash of vitriol, I've come to the conclusion, based on what's been said, that the only evil ever known to the world is white christian males. That's it's pointless to believe in any higher ideal than mankind, and that anyone who does, is naive, stupid or brainwashed.

Guess I may need to raise my level of intolerance and bigotry so that I can properly chastise those who don't agree with me so I can show my pureness of spirit and how my way is better than any other way.

And just in case there is any doubt, the sarcasm is fully intended.

_Currently at 36 03 21 N 76 36 37 W_


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Missionary said:


> going to a national church where you are anchored can be rewarding and a great way to share your faith with others. Having a prayer time and Bible study on your boat with other boaters where you are anchored. Visiting with other Christians in nationals homes. When Christians meet other Christians even when they don't speak the same language it is like meeting family.
> Tom


 excuse me, i need to get a beer after i barf. nothing against religion Tom, i just dont want to hear about it on my sailing forum! i live in a city of prostitution, gambling and drinking...also known as Sin City. I dont go to church but do not criticize the ones that do. I personally find it more enjoyable to meet fellow cruisers, have a cookout on the beach and drink till you pass out.... but thats just me!


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## SailinJay (Dec 6, 2002)

The Founding Fathers.....didn't they own slaves???


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## 42ndstreet (Oct 15, 2004)

I agree with you Missionary...Peace Be With You.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

> I've come to the conclusion, based on what's been said, that the only evil ever known to the world is white christian males.


Not true - American beer is pretty much the worst evil.  The christians can be good or bad, but it usually seems like the ones who actually walk what they talk are not the ones who attempt to recruit online...



> That's it's pointless to believe in any higher ideal than mankind


Not pointless if it works for you, but remember that it doesn't work for a lot of other folks, and that they are tired of hearing about it


> and that anyone who does, is naive, stupid or brainwashed.


Actually, I think it's more a case of fatigue or lack of reasoning ability arising from a lack of a balanced diet in the primary years, but that's just my opinion, which I realise a lot of people don't hold, hence I don't go on to the christian websites and ask how many of them suffered from a lack of vitamin supplements as children.



> Guess I may need to raise my level of intolerance and bigotry so that I can properly chastise those who don't agree with me so I can show my pureness of spirit and how my way is better than any other way.


No - feel free to maintain whatever your current level of them where it is. If intolerance or bigotry and chastising floats your boat - fine - just keep it to yourself and no-one will mind because they don't know. The vitriol is only unleashed when an individiual attempts to convince other folks of something that they know intellectually and spiritually to be untrue.

A rejection of the christian or islamic or jewish doctrine should not be interpreted as a lack of spirituality or idealism, it should just be taken as a rejection of the christian or islamic or jewish doctrine...


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

42ndstreet said:


> I agree with you Missionary...Peace Be With You.


 yeah, peace be with you but keep your Christianity to yourself!
IMHO organized religion is worse than organized crime... at least they tell you how it is and dont BS you! I didnt start a thread on the best way to shotgun a beer because these people probably dont care, and quite possibly i'm the only on that does.I wasted 3 minutes outta my life that are irreplaceable viewing this crap, L8ter

edit: oh yeah, nice boat. tell us about it. we'll be interested in that subject.


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## LittleMissMagic (Oct 13, 2006)

h16Sailor said:


> I have hesitated to come to this thread,
> i find people in Alabama talk about work, their children or religion and this is the extent of their abilities to converse.
> Glad to see i have nothing to fear and you sailor guys and gals have more topics to to discuss
> 
> "mind is forerunner of all conditions (good and evil)" Gotman Buddha


Personally I would like to see what you call LA (lower Alabama) annexed into West Florida, Baldwin Co. at least. I get tired of people making generalisations about my living in Alabama. Though most is true. Then again property taxes in Florida are higher so never mind.


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

A reasonable posting by Missionary immediately hijacked into various diatribes that have nothing to do with the OP. Generally, it is considered good manners to offer nothing, when you have nothing to offer. Interesting that those of an atheistic bent felt compelled to jump to their own defense in the face of no attack.

I associate with many persons of deep faith, the topic of religion rarely comes up. The atheists I know, apparently including those here, immediately go off the deep end the minute that God or religion is mentioned. There are many routes to faith, or rejection of faith, but long explanations of the unexplainable are not one of them.

Missonary apparently shares his faith with like minded individuals overseas, while practising works that better the overall living conditions in the communities he is visiting. Apparently, if someone is interested, he is willing to share his faith. That seemed to be what he was doing when he asked an innocuous question, no doubt, aimed at like minded thinkers. Perhaps the question should have been posted in "off-topic" but, "gen disc" does pull in a lot of topics that should be elsewhere anyway.

The response of sailnetters was poor manners at best.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

USCGRET1990 said:


> Does this qualify as SPAM?


as far as im concerned...Hell yeah it is


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

sailaway21 said:


> Generally, it is considered good manners to offer nothing, when you have nothing to offer.


 shoulda told him that


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Sway,
It definitely should have been in off topic. Had nothing to do with sailing. Merely an excuse to launch a religious thread. Deserved everything he/she got. A pox on the lot of them.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

LittleMissMagic said:


> Personally I would like to see what you call LA (lower Alabama) annexed into West Florida, Baldwin Co. at least. I get tired of people making generalisations about my living in Alabama.* Though most is true.* Then again property taxes in Florida are higher so never mind.


Yup, yews gots two wachh thems genrl-eye-zashuns sumtymes. 'Cuz use nahvr no wen thayl cumm bak tooo byt yas.........


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## LittleMissMagic (Oct 13, 2006)

RickLaPaz said:


> Yup, yews gots two wachh thems genrl-eye-zashuns sumtymes. 'Cuz use nahvr no wen thayl cumm bak tooo byt yas.........


Et leesed sumone got mi suttle joke.


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## ccam (Dec 17, 2006)

sailaway21 said:


> A reasonable posting by Missionary immediately hijacked into various diatribes that have nothing to do with the OP. Generally, it is considered good manners to offer nothing, when you have nothing to offer. Interesting that those of an atheistic bent felt compelled to jump to their own defense in the face of no attack.
> 
> I associate with many persons of deep faith, the topic of religion rarely comes up. The atheists I know, apparently including those here, immediately go off the deep end the minute that God or religion is mentioned. There are many routes to faith, or rejection of faith, but long explanations of the unexplainable are not one of them.
> 
> ...


Thanks Sailaway, That was admirably put. There are no atheists in foxholes or hurricanes.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

LittleMissMagic said:


> Et leesed sumone got mi suttle joke.


Use sownds kyna kute. Wanna cumm ohver an wachh Deeliverants wif mee?

Ay gaht Pabstt....


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## poopdeckpappy (Jul 25, 2006)

Ya know what's comical about this, it's not the OP or his or her message, it's the fact he or she bailed 2 days and a 100+ post ago and yet this frenzy continues.

Beliefs are just what they are, Beliefs, to give your opinion about the dangers of what he/she originally posted is one thing, to bash his/her and one anothers beliefs is another, not to mention, shameful, and that is my belief


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

poopdeckpappy said:


> Ya know what's comical about this, it's not the OP or his or her message, it's the fact he or she bailed 2 days and a 100+ post ago and yet this frenzy continues.
> 
> Beliefs are just what they are, Beliefs, to give your opinion about the dangers of what he/she originally posted is one thing, to bash his/her and one anothers beliefs is another, not to mention, shameful, and that is my belief


Perhaps it's time for this thread to die a noble death. Someone should cue Taps right now. And post a pic of that Flying Noodle Kracken Monster thing while they're at it...........

R.I.P.


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## phallo153 (May 4, 2007)

As requested, The Allmeaty:


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Priceless.

Thank you.........


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## CoralReefer (Jul 20, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> I think Mahatma Ghandi and Mother Teresa both fit this description pretty well.


The mahatma was against christanity and mother teresa abided with her catholic beliefs which did not include homosexuals.


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## LittleMissMagic (Oct 13, 2006)

May this thread rest in peace.


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## TSteele65 (Oct 19, 2006)

CoralReefer said:


> The mahatma was against christianity...


Not really:

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." ~Mahatma Gandhi

I think he hit the nail on the head, personally.


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## Joesaila (May 19, 2007)

*accountability*

*Whew- The obscenity and hostility say volums!*


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

CoralReefer said:


> The mahatma was against christanity and mother teresa abided with her catholic beliefs which did not include homosexuals.


Last I checked Mother Teresa treated everybody with respect and dignity, whether they deserved it or not, whether the Catholic Church said they deserved it or not. Mahatma Ghandi's problem was with the organized structure of the Christian religion and some of the more fanatical supporters of it-not with Christianity as a religion.

Your original criteria:



> Originally Posted by *CoralReefer*
> _12 pages of crap. No such thing as a Christian only hypocritical sheep. Show me 1 just 1 person who has no prejudice, loves everyone on this planet, who would give everything he or she owned to someone who needed it more, who would die for another human and not take another life, who would loose it all to refuse to fight or go to war, who has not harmed a single creature on this planet, or who has always abided by the golden rule. Every person who has ever gone to war and taken life did not turn the other cheek, did not listen to what God said but instead put their government ahead of God. To all of you I say Bullshit, your a hypocrite and whatever religion you belive in is crap._


_
_ Those two came will little prejudice-can you show me any act by either of prejudicial behavior?

Those two accepted everyone they met.... and Mother Teresa gave up almost everything she could have had in her life to do what she did for a living. Mahatma Ghandi was never a materialistic person from what I've read.

Neither would ever condone violence, much less commit it.

Yes, Mother Teresa was Catholic... but that doesn't mean that she and the established church doctrine marched lock-step with each other.

And exactly what makes Christianity such a good religion that you can not be against it? Organized religions tend to be bureaucratic, hierarchical, greedy, and not pay attention to the needs of the people. Last I checked, Jesus Christ never said that the Catholic Church, or that established organized religious structure was necessary or good. He went and preached directly to the people. The Christian Church, be it Catholic, Unitarian, Methodist, or whatever has often sheltered its own people from prosecution (ever hear of child molesting priests); lied and stolen from its own flocks; misrepresented the truth about many things...


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## CoralReefer (Jul 20, 2006)

I don't know what you saying, I think all religions are full of crap and that there are no true christians. Gandi was a lawyer and everyone know that if a lawyer's lips are moving that he is lying. Mother teresa was cannonized by the church which means she had to abide by all church doctrine and beliefs which included rejection of homosexuality and also birth control. I'm not saying that these people where bad but that there is no one who can be the perfect human being as to the teaching of all orginized religions.


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## badsneakers (Mar 7, 2007)

RickLaPaz said:


> Perhaps it's time for this thread to die a noble death. Someone should cue Taps right now. And post a pic of that Flying Noodle Kracken Monster thing while they're at it...........
> 
> R.I.P.


Nah..not "taps". "Bright Side of Life" from "The Life of Brian" by Monty Python.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

badsneakers said:


> Nah..not "taps". "Bright Side of Life" from "The Life of Brian" by Monty Python.


Very fitting indeed . . . Bright Side of Life


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

TrueBlue said:


> Very fitting indeed . . . Bright Side of Life


Very nice, Gentlemen.

I'd pull out a Sam Kinison video about now, but I'd probably get flicked.

(Well, there's always tomorrow, huh?)...........


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

On one hand, I'm not very enamored with the aggressive preacher trying to convert me. But I'm also totally disgusted by the intollerant here taking cheap shots at all religion.
It is quite funny to me that the original poster has moved on but the hate mongers have hung on like a pit bull to a childs neck.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

> the hate mongers have hung on like a pit bull to a childs neck.


 . . . thanks for sharing that hateful vision to end my day on sailnet xort. My belief is that there is no god, only dilusions created by warped minds.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

xort said:


> It is quite funny to me that the original poster has moved on but the hate mongers have hung on like a pit bull to a childs neck.


Some people call it HSS.

(Human Slinky Syndrome. Fun for girls and boys)........


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## badsneakers (Mar 7, 2007)

the hate mongers have hung on like a pit bull to a childs neck.[/QUOTE]

I think 'hate mongers' is a bit strong. I always liked this quote from Woody Allen:

If it turns out that there is a God, I don't think that he's evil. But the worst that you can say about him is that basically he's an underachiever.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> I think Mahatma Ghandi and Mother Teresa both fit this description pretty well.


Neither of them could gybe worth a crap, though.


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## badsneakers (Mar 7, 2007)

Yeah but Ghandi was probably one off the best grinders Denis Conner ever had!


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## Joesaila (May 19, 2007)

So we all agree that E=mc2...that energy and matter exist...the next question logically would be. Where did the matter and energy originate? From nothing or from something. Of course those who do not want to ever be accountable for their actions can always play dumb, 'from nothing or duh "this is all a dream, or "you can never know the answers"..."believe whatever you like", better yet as one wise man once said. "You can't fix stupid". 
The naysayers are not anything new and a response that still addresses them can be enjoyed in the old book of Job- Ch.38 verse 4.


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## mpraca (May 12, 2001)

I have to say, you got me there! Suddenly it is clear that the only possibility that can be contemplated by me, in the enlightened state that your argument brought to me, is that God is behind all things that we have not found an explanation for. I see clearly that while there is any sparkle of ignorance or a millimiter of the universe that is beyond our understanding, there we will find God.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Jesus, Mary and Joseph - they're obviously determined to continue. Let's find that ignore button again shall we...


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Prudent use of the Ignore button is a good thing.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

badsneakers said:


> Yeah but Ghandi was probably one off the best grinders Denis Conner ever had!


Perhaps, but it got ugly when his dhoti got caught in the self-tailers.


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## cockeyedbob (Dec 6, 2006)

I suppose if ya buy the god bit, ya should get a free subscription to the afterlife.

Bob's no church goer ... but ...

In 1992, I went to a funeral in Texas, a relative by marriage, an elderly woman, we weren't close ... died at home, dead a couple of days ... 

That night after the burial, while standing alone in her kitchen, BAM! someone walks into me. Not bumps into, but FORCES their way INTO me. INTO ALL OF ME as in SHARED THE SAME PHYSICAL SPACE.

I was knocked to my hands and knees and experienced a feeling of absolute utter hopelessness, a feeling of total and incomprehensible dispair, loss beyond understanding. It was very frightening!

After a few seconds, I felt whatever it was leave and the emotion also vanished.

Later that evening, sitting in the living room, BAM, it hits again, the same feeling, horrible overwhelming loss and dispair. As before, it only lasted a second or two then whatever it was left as suddenly as it had arrived.

The following morning while shaving in this woman's bathroom, BAM, the same thing happened. I grabbed my stuff, and RAN from the house.

This has never happened before, and it hasn't happened since.

There was something in that house and it sure as hell was not happy.

So, yuck it up fellas, but excuse Bob for not joining in. There's something out there, and I don't believe it's god.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*"Scully!!!"....................*


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

cockeyedbob said:


> So, yuck it up fellas, but excuse Bob for not joining in. There's something out there, and I don't believe it's god.


I never said myself that I don't believe in the afterlife or the persistence of some kind of energy after death. I would like to see more evidence, however, and some explanation as to what exactly it is of human consciousness (if that is what you encountered) that survives physical death, and by what means.

I have no doubt you experienced something both disturbing and inexplicable, even as you recognized what was happening was related to the death of the old woman. Many have experienced everything from "creepy feelings" to near-assaults of the type you describe. Frequently such events are kept private, because they seem ripe for mockery and so contrary to our rationality, which in the overwhelming number of cases, tends toward the "when you're dead, you're dead".

I am happy to admit we don't know the science of this, but may one day find out. It's not, therefore, a matter of faith, but a matter of further research. Research is unnecessary to faith and indeed, is commonly seen as its enemy. Said Martin Luther, of all people: "faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding." Of course, he also wrote: "Nothing good ever comes of violence," just prior to 250 years of religious wars and sectarian strife.


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## mpraca (May 12, 2001)

cockeyedbob said:


> So, yuck it up fellas, but excuse Bob for not joining in. There's something out there, and I don't believe it's god.


I agree, there's something out there. From my observation, that something is... us.
People who study the "placebo effect", don't know how it works, but they have seen people curing themselves with the simple suggestion that they are taking a new medication. The same happens with hypnosis. People reach resources within themselves to do the healing that they believe is being administered from the outside.
We have much to learn about ourselves, and every unexplained phenomenon ends and starts with our hopes and expectations. I think it's fine to tell children about God or Santa or Ronald Mc Donald, but there is a time when we have to let go of those fantasies and think about what is really consistent with our observation. Believe what you want but I believe what I understand when I'm not forced into a belief that makes me socially acceptable. Not too long ago it was considered a crime punishable by death to declare oneself an atheist. Ever wondered who was so threatened by that?


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## 42ndstreet (Oct 15, 2004)

mpraca-Oncologists will tell you that people who believe in God, have a higher survival rate than those that don't. I think this is a little different than taking a placebo. Something, as a cancer survivor, would not recommend you do.
Also, to think that Ronald McDonald created the world is a bit of a stretch. With millions of coincidences and irregularities in our world that scientists and "smart people" gloss over, I would also wonder who is really feeling threatened by God.
For example-a nucleus is made up of positively charged protons. We know that like charges repel. What keeps the nucleus from exploding? I don't remember covering that in science class. Do you honestly remember the teacher covering it? I do remember the story about primordial soup though. Talk about something not making sense.


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## cockeyedbob (Dec 6, 2006)

42ndstreet said:


> mpraca-Oncologists will tell you that people who believe in God, have a higher survival rate than those that don't.


42nd ...

The mate manages the local Med/Rad Oncolgy department ... she, a non-believer, very much agrees with you ...

Best wishes on your recovery.


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## badsneakers (Mar 7, 2007)

So, I'm just here trying be a nice guy, raise a family, squeeze in some sailing. I'm not trying to change the world, just make my little corner of it a better place to be. I don't believe in a 'supreme being' of any flavor. I do believe that there are many questions in the universe are yet unanswered, they may never be answered. Does that make me a bad person? Am I going to hell? Assuming there is one.


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## cockeyedbob (Dec 6, 2006)

Bsneek ...

Your guess is as good as mine. 

I do what I can. If it ain't good enough ... well, guess it ain't good enough. Do ya s'pect el Supremo will grade on a curve?


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## badsneakers (Mar 7, 2007)

My point exactly!


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## mpraca (May 12, 2001)

42ndstreet said:


> mpraca-Oncologists will tell you that people who believe in God, have a higher survival rate than those that don't. I think this is a little different than taking a placebo. Something, as a cancer survivor, would not recommend you do.


If believing in God helped anybody get over cancer, that's good for them. It only supports my point that people have resources that they interpret as being outside of themselves. Should I be scared that I don't believe? Is that a good reason to believe? I don't know that oncologists will all agree, but independently from that my concern is the truth, and I know that believeing in a fantasy is not the way I want to go through life. I cant believe in something that tells me such nonsense as can be dug out of the various competing versions of the word of God. I know they were written by people limited by their ignorance and their particular cultural beliefs. Why would God be concerned with eating pork in one account and not the other? Why would God talk about the world being flooded and leave out that there are far away places like different continents, and oceans those people never could have imagine? Wouldn't it be easy to actually have something worth revealing that was not possible for the people who wrote the "sacred" books to know otherewise? Why not transmit useful knowledge instead of banishing those who try to learn? If you believe is such a paternal being why do you bother putting gas in your car? It should be enough to pray. I hear even the popemobile needs fuel. I don't have all the answers and science doesn't either, but your proton question has been resolved a hundred years ago so I'll skip that argument. What I know is that God and fear are always too close together. Should I be too scared to open my eyes and see?


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## cockeyedbob (Dec 6, 2006)

Hmmmmm ...

There comes a time in most men's lives when the number of their remaining natural teeth closely approximates the number of their remaining years. 

That time generally coincides with their beginning to seriously consider the future.


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## c40eb (Sep 12, 2002)

This, to ME, is what makes sense. This, to ME, is what I can most relate to. I am an agnostic. The link below leads to a Q & A with Bertrand Russell on "What is an Agnostic?". For ME...good stuff.

What Is An Agnostic?


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## mpraca (May 12, 2001)

"I can imagine other evidence of the same sort which might convince me, but so far as I know, no such evidence exists." -Bertrabd Russel
That all makes sense, maybe, perhaps, because he is a thinking person?
It really does not bother me what people believe. I consider myself an atheist, thank God.
The difference between an agnostic and an atheist is that both believe there is absolutely no spec of evidence that any God dfined by any culture ever existed. The difference is that agnostics think that maybe they should be open to the idea that one day that evidence will show up. I suppose that after thousands of years of recorded history and confirming that God has been an idea defined by human cultures for reasons that we understand, it is a little silly to expect that one day this fantasy actually becomes true. If so, which god? The christian God, Zeus, Ra? It's the same as saying that maybe one day we will find a white unicorn. Don't mean to be critical c40eb, I appreciate your arguments. The only point of discussing religion is to speculate logically. If someone believes something beyond reasoning there is no point in having a debate of beliefs. It's when they try to impose that belief on others that you have to question their motives.


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## badsneakers (Mar 7, 2007)

cockeyedbob said:


> Hmmmmm ...
> 
> There comes a time in most men's lives when the number of their remaining natural teeth closely approximates the number of their remaining years.
> 
> That time generally coincides with their beginning to seriously consider the future.


Hey Bob, using that logic alot of us should have been dead years ago!!!

Let's bring this back to a nautical thread...it's what ever floats your boat!


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## dohenyboy (Aug 16, 2006)

the best way to share your faith while cruising is by living in such a way that reveals the genuiness of your belief.
When someone starts talking to me about God I check to make sure my wallet is secure. Sorry, got ripped off by two many like that, saw too much pure hate directed by those whose voices are the loudest. Have too many lady friends who were asked for sex by famous preachers.


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

Man I read this thread and all that seems to be missing are the lions. 

Yes of course, missionary, talk about your beliefs. Everyone does that after they've had a cold drink and the stars come up, and you've got just as much right as anyone else.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I wanna hear about his cruising! that sounds interesting


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## Culinary411 (Oct 20, 2006)

Guys, The last time sailing and religion mixed, the missionary was Magellan and fate was a poison arrow. My advice...believe what you want to, but when the natives start chucking spears...take your bible, notebook, whatever, and head for the hills.....er...waves.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

It is absolutley okay for the OP to believe in whatever faith / God / system / religion he adheres to. It is 100% right that he should have the freedom to live according to his beliefs, as long as those beliefs do not infringe on anyone else's freedoms to live as they choose. I just think that this is an inappropriate venue to raise the issue of religion in.

The topic is a more inflamatory than most others, and tends to polarise people. If there is sufficient interest among the participants here, perhaps they could set up a separate forum for Christians who cruise and like to debate amongst themselves about whether a cloth-bound or vinyl-bound Bible is preferable in a salt-water environment.

I just take issue with the topic being raised in the "Cruising" forum, as the OP was not asking about Cruising, but was asking about whether others engaged in proselytizing when they arrived in foreign countries.

I think it would be just as unsuitable if someone were to post a thread asking if anyone else covered their significant other in Russian Dressing and beat them with a loaf of French bread, once the anchor was set.

Either way - if it floats your boat go for it - but understand it's an ancillary activity that appeals to a very select few and can raise the ire of many others, so please, don't share !


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## Culinary411 (Oct 20, 2006)

RUSSIAN DRESSING !!!??? LMFAO
I'm American baby....we use ranch... 
Very well put Sailormann, I'd rather not read bible beater posts in the cruising posts either.


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## badsneakers (Mar 7, 2007)

I whole heartedly agree! Enough of this. Everybody agrees to disagree.
So....
Where you folks cruising this 4th of July?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

The pond. The big one right in front of the Vatican..........


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## badsneakers (Mar 7, 2007)

In the Papal Sea no doubt!!!!LOL!!!


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

Sailormann said:


> anyone else covered their significant other in Russian Dressing and beat them with a loaf of French bread, once the anchor was set.


Sailing porn!!! I'll drink to that.


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## CBinRI (May 17, 2004)

I consider myself to be a religious person. I attend church regularly and am on the Vestry of my Church. But I feel strongly that cruising/sailing and prosteletyzing do not mix. I would feel affronted if someone tried to impose their faith on me in this context and I would not consider imposing mine on anyone else. Most of us are on the water to relax and enjoy ourselves -- not to have our belief systems challenged. I wouldn't go from boat to boat soliciting donations for my political party either.

Edit: Sorry, just noticed this thread for the first time and may have unwisely resurrected it.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Or, kinda like I told someone a few years ago;

_"Don't tell me how to pray, and I won't tell you how to anchor"............_


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

CBinRI said:


> Edit: Sorry, just noticed this thread for the first time and may have unwisely resurrected it.


Heh..."resurrected it"...heh....


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## Joel73 (Apr 23, 2007)

Ba dum bum!CHHHHh


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