# Putting cleats on concrete



## grinfax (Dec 9, 2007)

So I had a plan for Fay. I was going to leave my boat at a friends house whose backyard is on a canal. When I got there, there were no cleats on the concrete wall. I tied up to some coconut trees in his yard but that was less than optimal and thank God Fay was a dud. 

So to prep for the next hurricane I an going to invest in some cleats. I have a 30' boat. I was thinking about buying 4 of these: 

http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|7504|292249|38357&id=38358

My questions: 

1) Are 4 cleats enough?
2) How do I secure the cleats onto the concrete wall?

Thanks,
Kim


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

Kim, it depends what sort of concrete wall you've got to mess with - one would hope it's reinforced - but if it's less than 6" thick, you might be better off with ring-bolts though-bolted into the wall.

Unlike cleats, a rope attached to a ring-bolts can be pulled at any angle and can be as strong as the wall itself if you can drill right through the wall and put a nut and the biggest washer you can get on the other side.

If you can do this, 4 ring bolts, one in each quadrant with the boat in the centre, should hold the boat at least until the wall breaks.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I wouldn't use those cleats. Aluminum is a lousy material for cleats IMHO. They are subject to fatigue and fairly vulnerable to corrosion as well.

If the wall is fairly thick, say two-to-three feet, and it were my boat, I would drill fairly large holes and drop in stainless steel or galvanized threaded rod that has the bottom bent into a j-hook, and the top spaced to fit a heavy stainless steel mooring bit like this one:










That would probably be more secure than those small cleats. Make the threaded rods fairly long and the chance that they'll pull out is minimal. BTW, if you're using cleats or mooring bitts, you need to put some sort of rub strake down on the wall to protect the rope from chafing against the concrete.

If the wall is fairly thin, less than a foot thick, I'd agree with Hartley and go with ringbolt or u-bolts with rings attached, that are through bolted using a fairly heavy backing plate.

BTW, it is generally a really stupid idea to tie up to coconut palm trees. Coconut palm trees have very shallow root systems and generally aren't all that sturdy in resisting high lateral loads.


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

sailingdog said:


> BTW, it is generally a really stupid idea to tie up to coconut palm trees. Coconut palm trees have very shallow root systems and generally aren't all that sturdy in resisting high lateral loads.


...Not to mention that explaining to your insurer how the deck got damaged by falling coconuts might be more trouble than it's worth!! 

BTW, with all due respect for the Dog, mooring bollards are fine... but I'd still think you'd be better off with ring bolts given how often you're likely to be using the berth and what you're wanting it for. 

Cameron


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

If the wall is at or above gunwale height, you might also consider using beach anchors immediately behid the wall. As long as the pull is sideways or down, the geometry/physics are perfect for getting the optimum holding power. If there is any upward pull, then it is a really bad idea. I have seen those used in areas where messing with the seawall itself is forbidden (something you will want to check into with respect to the canal).


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## Banshi (Jul 4, 2007)

I would use tapcons, a single 1/4" X 1 1/4" screw has 1200 or so pounds of holding strength. They come in both counter sunk and hex head and install quick and easy, drill a small hole screw them down tight and you are done. Your dock/dock cleat will break before they do.


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## SteveInMD (May 11, 2007)

I could be wrong, but I'm not sure TapCons are up the job here. I've seen them pull out with repeated force pulling one way then the other. I would glue in anchors.

Typically this is done by using a hammer drill. You will need a good size drill for this job. With the right drill and a sharp bit the concrete will cut like butter. You then glue a piece of threaded rod (you can use stainless rod of you like) into the hole using an acrylic glue (epoxy was used in the old days, but the acrylic is actually stronger). Put tape on the threads that you will use for nuts to hold the mooring post. If you get glue on the threads it will never come off. If you put an anchor is the wrong place you have to cut it off flush with the concrete as they are not removable, period.

Everything you need to do this job is available at your local home center (maybe not the stainless threaded rod). Look near the joist hangers and and anchors for the acrylic glue. You may be able to rent an SMS type rock hammer from them. Buy yourself a new bit.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I wouldn't use beach anchors, since you don't know what the storm will do in terms of surge. Given the size of the storm surge normally associated with a hurricane, even if the boat is even with the land, it might not be during a storm....


arbarnhart said:


> If the wall is at or above gunwale height, you might also consider using beach anchors immediately behid the wall. As long as the pull is sideways or down, the geometry/physics are perfect for getting the optimum holding power. If there is any upward pull, then it is a really bad idea. I have seen those used in areas where messing with the seawall itself is forbidden (something you will want to check into with respect to the canal).


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## Karletto (Aug 10, 2008)

i saw maybe 1 peer with cleats in 10 years; in store your can buy special bolts for concrete


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## Boasun (Feb 10, 2007)

With securing points attached to that sea wall or inboard of the sea wall. You will want to place and anchor or two in the canal to hold your vessel off of that concrete sea-wall. Think of that wall as heavy grit sand paper and you will under stand why. Especially when your fendering system fails.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

sailingdog said:


> I wouldn't use beach anchors, since you don't know what the storm will do in terms of surge. Given the size of the storm surge normally associated with a hurricane, even if the boat is even with the land, it might not be during a storm....


Good point. He still needs to check to see if the canal is under some sort of jurisdiction and be careful about potential liability whether it is or not. If it is built and maintained by a government body, they may frown on drilling holes and/or having things attached to it. A neighborhood association may also have rules. If a crack develops anywhere near it afterward, I would expect him to get the bill for repairs. Unless it is absolutely clear it is no problem, I would try to use the ground behind it rather than the wall itself, though maybe with something more substantial than a beach anchor. It wasn't purpose built as a pier, but would probably be fine. However, his proposed use is for extreme conditions.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

One possible solution is to dig into the soil behind the wall and bury a few railroad ties, and use the ties as anchor points for whatever system he's using. We did something similar when building a retaining wall to help hold the wall in place.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

How about a couple of helix anchors used to tie down trailers? We have a few rows of them in the field behind our house to tie down stuff during a storm.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

That's a good idea too... and you could set a couple in the bottom, under water for use for the lines to hold the boat off the wall. 


SVDistantStar said:


> How about a couple of helix anchors used to tie down trailers? We have a few rows of them in the field behind our house to tie down stuff during a storm.


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## grinfax (Dec 9, 2007)

Wow, I love this site, thank you all for your help. I think I know what to do. I don't think the neighborhood association will frown upon me putting in cleats at all the neighbors have them. Once again thank you for your advice.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

If you are going to put cleats or bollards into the concrete, using lag bolts in lead shields (Rawl plugs) or by shooting concrete nails into the concrete...your weak point will be the spike into the concrete. You'd want to find out the strength of the fasteners you are using, and see how that load affects the concrete.

OTOH, you could use helical anchors simply screwed into the ground behind the concrete, and tie off to those. If this is just a storm precaution, then you could unscrews them and stow them afterwards. Assuming of course that you CAN screw them into the ground, if that's Florida limestone that may be problematic.<G>

But, some helical anchors into the ground would make the seawall and the cleats all moot points, also removing any questions of jurisdiction. (You'd want some chafe protection on the lines where they crossed the concrete, obviously.)


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

grinfax said:


> Wow, I love this site, thank you all for your help. I think I know what to do. I don't think the neighborhood association will frown upon me putting in cleats at all the neighbors have them. Once again thank you for your advice.


I read too much into "no cleats"; I figured you meant that there weren't any nearby or you would have mentioned how they were secured. Can you see how the neighbors attached theirs?

EDIT - I am not trying to be a curmudgeon, but if I were you I would still check to make sure it is okay if they are rare. I have seen people run red lights; that doesn't make it okay to run them. They may be okay as long as they meet certain criteria. Or maybe they really don't care - some places just build the seawalls initially and then it is up to property owners to maintain them.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Find your local Hilti (spelling is correct) dealer and talk to them. Back in the days when I was installing xray rooms in California, they had the right anchors for bolting 3 and 4 ton pieces of equipment to concrete floors. Some of the equipment had huge, off-balance loads on them, and they wanted to fall down. Hilti was the only company that made anchors strong enough to hold them in place, and meet California earthquake building codes. 

When we were done in a cath lab, for example, the c-arm (weight: 2 tons) had 10 three-quarter inch by eight inch long bolts that had to be torqued to 150 foot pounds. 

They also have a special epoxy that is designed to adhere to concrete, and is stronger than steel. 

Their stuff isn't cheap, but it works. They have stores in just about every major city in the US. 

Some of the stores will also rent you one of their rotary hammer drills. The only catch there is you have to buy one of their special drill bits, and they aren't cheap, either. It's generally worth it, though, because their bits are well built and will drill through just about anything but rebar, including solid granite.


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## kd3pc (Oct 19, 2006)

Second vote for hilti anchors, I have used them in many ways more stressful than cleats and they hold up very well, easy to use.

Hilti

dave


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