# Older Boats-How Long will they Last?



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I was just wondering about buying a well built, but much older boat.... lets use a well cared for Alberg 30 for example. The boat is already 40 years old. How long realistically can she continue to sail? 20 years? 30 years? more?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

With proper care and maintainace, indefinetly. There are a few wood boats still sailing at 100 years +.


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## danjarch (Jun 18, 2007)

Fiberglass boats have a life between 25 and 40 years depending on how well they've been cared for and how many waves they've pounded through. Wooden boats can last longer but usually don't because they require more mantience and once they start sliping they are more expensive to catch up with. 

All boats start to get harder and more expensive to keep up as they age. Everything from the mounting bolts for the rudder, to the sheaves in the mast head have a life span. As all the parts start failing it gets expensive to keep replacing them. 

If the boat is currently 40 years old, you need to be asking how much time and money do you want to be spending refitting and repairing your boat, as compared to sailing.


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## poopdeckpappy (Jul 25, 2006)

One of mine is 38 yrs old and I see no reason why I can't get another 38 out of it


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I think that some of the Albergs will still be sailing in 40 years. A lot of them will not. There are two primary determinants that afffect the longevity of the fibreglass - mechanical force and chemical degradation.

The glass in the boats is actually pretty weak stuff, but when it is encased in the plastic resin, it becomes quite stiff. Once bent though, the crystalline structure of the glass is compromised and the perfect little cells become misshapen and weakened. They are not elastic in the sense that rubbers and some plastics are, so when damage occurs - it is permanent. This happens on a microscopic level every time the boat flexes as it sails through waves, and on a larger scale when the boat is subjected to trauma, such as running aground or banging into docks. Eventually, if all of the glass fibres become damaged, the boat will become so brittle that (in theory) any traumatic event will be enough to make it shatter, as the resin by itself has little structural integrity.

The second factor - chemical degradation, most familiar to boaters as osmosis, happens because polyester resin (all resins actually, including epoxy) are not really "waterproof". They dissolve in water.

The gel-coats used in the sixties and seventies were particularly prone to dissolving like this, with the result that they became porous enough for water to enter. The water then encountered the secondary layer of resin, less solvent than the gel-coat, hence it could not penetrate as quickly, so it accumulated and formed "blisters".

When a blister is "popped" close attention is paid to the colour of the liquid that comes out, as the darker it is, the more styrene is suspended in it, and the worse the degradation of the structure is.

The boats that are being built today, sometimes use materials that are less soluble than the resins used forty years ago, but they tend to use less quantities of both glass and resin, hence while it may take longer for them to start to break down, when they do start, they go more quickly, as there is simply less material to be destroyed.

So - to answer your question, the Albergs, being built with (by today's standards) an excess of both glass and resin, can handle a lot of banging around and sitting in water before they fall apart. If you find one that has been barrier-coated with epoxy, which, while still soluble is much more stable than polyester resin, and where bilges have been kept fairly dry, and that has not been rammed into the dock or run up on the rocks, then it's probably going to last quite a while longer.

If you are looking at one that has not been taken care of well, and has been banged around a lot, I wouldn't expect an awful lot from it. It would be quite difficult to determine exactly how badly a bot has deteriorated, but I think it would be safe to say that if you notice a lot of flexing when it sails, and if things start going out of alignment in the cabin (but don't confuse this with the normal swelling and contracting of wood), then the boat is on its last legs.

Probably a bit longer than you wanted to read but - WTH - I am feeling pedantic in the wee hours...


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Sailormann said:


> Probably a bit longer than you wanted to read but - WTH - I am feeling pedantic in the wee hours...


Not at all longer than I wanted to read, I like it when someone takes the time to really write out a long detailed post to explain *why* they are saying something. Thanks.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Well...since FG boat building came into its own about 40 years ago...we should be seeing reports of hulls failing due to age...yet I've never seen anything posted here or elsewhere about that. Blisters yeah...but that affects younger boats as well. 
I am of the opinion that speculation on the longevity of FG boats is just that at this point and we really don't know how long they will last. A well built boat from the 70's like Pappy's may indeed have another 30 years or more of life and I would not hesitate to buy a boat of that era that surveys well.


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## danjarch (Jun 18, 2007)

Cam, The debate about the longevity of fiberglass is not in question. It basically boils down to whether the vessel was " rode hard and put away wet " so to speak. As to hearing about hulls cracking up, a trip through your local boat yard will show you that a lot of 60s and 70s fiberglass boats are under going major refits or meeting with the chainsaw.

The biggest example of drastic material fatigue was probably the Honolulu flight that had it's cabin ripped open due to metal fatigue. Most older sail boats die of far less famous death. They are usually on their forth or fifth owner when they bounce off the dock one time to many, or the cleats let lose in a thunderstorm and they pound onto the shore. It follows the same rule as used cars, the new owner purchases the boat because he doesn't have enough money to buy something newer. He also doesn't usually have the money for the best materials to up keep the vessel.

Still the biggest reason older boats die, is not that their glass fails, but other cascading equipment failures. On a ten to fifteen year old boat, the new owner will probably look at replacing the sails, some if not all the lines, and giving the engine a good tune up. On a thirty year old boat you'll have all that plus; Resealing all the ports, replacing all the through hulls, replacing the sheaves and standing rigging, replacing the engine or transmission, and resealing all the deck connections. Of coarse most of these and other problems will dealt with as they acur, which means fixing the collateral damage that has been caused. Such as replacing cabinetry because a leak sprung in the shrouds and de-laminated your cabinets.

There will always be exceptions to the above. A mechanics boat per say, or the boat equivalent of a little old ladies car, one the has been stored inside for a long time and maintained reasonably well. This argument can go on forever, but unless you have an outside influence that forces you to continue using old boats, most people are going to opt for newer less maintenance intrusive vessel.

Just look at all the old Packard and studebakers driving around Cuba. You can keep anything going if you really want. We still have collectors who buy and maintain classic cars in this country, but few if anybody drives these old cars on their daily commute.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

JustMeUC said:


> I was just wondering about buying a well built, but much older boat.... lets use a well cared for Alberg 30 for example. The boat is already 40 years old. How long realistically can she continue to sail? 20 years? 30 years? more?


You stated "a well cared for" vessel. If it continues to be "well cared for", I stand by my original, albeit short and to the point, answer. ALL boats require periodic and expensive maintenance to remain seaworthy. My 36 year old Morgan is structurely sound with many years left in the old gal.


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## SimonV (Jul 6, 2006)

danjarch said:


> Fiberglass boats have a life between 25 and 40 years depending on how well they've been cared for and how many waves they've pounded through. Wooden boats can last longer but usually don't because they require more mantience and once they start sliping they are more expensive to catch up with.
> 
> All boats start to get harder and more expensive to keep up as they age. Everything from the mounting bolts for the rudder, to the sheaves in the mast head have a life span. As all the parts start failing it gets expensive to keep replacing them.
> 
> If the boat is currently 40 years old, you need to be asking how much time and money do you want to be spending refitting and repairing your boat, as compared to sailing.


What A load of crap, with a capital C, in reality no one knows, no boat has been sunk because of osmosis, no boat has been given an expiration date. We just don't know, there are enough 40 year old boats out there that are still in their prime. They would be a joy to own and sail many being over built as it has only been recently that due to cost restraints have the builders built to a minimum. To say that from 25yrs on they have had it or are about to fall apart, is just plain stupid.


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## danjarch (Jun 18, 2007)

Simon, I'm getting that you have an older boat that you feel a strong attachment to. Don't miss understand me, when I say that older boats deteriorate. I myself have a 1967 bristol corsair that I intend to keep for a few more years. This said, it is still true that all materials used in constructing anything, will have a cycles per million threshold. Beyond this threshold if you don't do something to extend the life of the object in question, it will fail. One day you will be confronted with your boats mortality, you may decide to delay it at all costs. This is a decision that involves far more then economics by it self, but if you are looking for a boat to buy, then age as well as what you intend to do with your boat, as well as your level of experience in seamanship and maintenance will definitely be determining factors

It is pretty simple in the end. If you want to spend more time sailing or are planing on cruising far from home, you'll most likely want a newer boat that is easier to maintain and less likely to need major repairs. If your prefer hanging out on your boat while fixing the little things that pop up constantly, or want to do day sailing and coastal cruising and are a bit short on cash, you'll probably choose an older boat.

I've rebuilt, refit, or remolded enough motorcycles, boats, cars, houses and other object over the years that I can fully and with no reservations tell you to " take your head at your ass ". Older boats can nickle and dime you into the poor house. They can also leave you stranded in some foreign port looking at major delays and expenses. I enjoy and am capable of doing just about every thing that would be required to refit and keep the oldest boats around going for years to come, but I also like to sail, as well as ride my bike, and enjoy my home. This means taking a real look at your priorities. Also taking a real look at what can be boiled down to so many cubic of fiberglass, stainless steel, and other bits, if your not emotionally attached to it


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## pigslo (Nov 22, 2004)

My understanding was that it is the plastic that is week until fiberglass is added, not the other way around. FRP and GRP are acronyms for Fiberglass Reinforced Plastic and Glass Reinforced Plastic.
As for the cost of refitting over time, look at th cost of a new 36 foot boat and it becomes evident for many (including myself) that the used boat is all many can buy.
pigslo


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

We are not talking about the rest of the boat...which all can be replaced and refit as things fail...we are talking about the life of the boat if it is well cared for. There is NO evidence whatsoever of well cared for older boats failing due to "flex cycling" ...those boats that you see getting cut up are boat that have been abused and failed because of that abuse...and many are not that old at all. 
It may be that flex cycling eventually does take its' toll on glass boats...just as we may run out of oil someday. Nobody really knows when.


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## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

i know a real sweeeeettttttttttt 1964 35ft Grumman/Alberg/Pearson/whoknows that looks like the seven sins of hell, but its stucturally better than some of the new boats I've seen. There are some parts of the hull that are 1.75" thick! 
(yea, I know thicker isn't better, but my god man, this tub was built for icebreaking) The teak is almost shot, the rigging has what looks like bak-o-lite tackle, but in a blow, I'm headin' for this old girl.


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## danjarch (Jun 18, 2007)

Cam, the hull usually will crack from hitting another solid object, i.e. a dock, going aground, or a boat to boat rubbing. The fracture happens or is made worse by the preexisting loss of rigidity. In layman's terms, if a boat is 1/4 of the way through it's cycles per million and impacts the dock with X amount of force it won't breach the structural integrity of the hull. However if the boat is 3/4 of the way through it's cycles per million and impacts the dock with the same X amount of force, it would breach the structural integrity, resulting in crack and\or rips in the hull.

This is why it would be rare to hear of a breach due to regular wave action. Boats of any size routinely come into contact with docks, piles, other boats, or touch bottom. These encounters would be more likely to expose the growing weaknesses, but could be written off as operator error. This is why basic seamanship should be considered when purchasing an older boat. If your pretty good at docking, and know the water depth around your sailing area, you can get longer life spans just by babying the boat.

A better way to learn about long term effect on materials is to look at airplanes. A airplanes fuselage almost never comes into contact with any other hard objects. However, after repeated long term flexing, it will start to crack, then rips apart. If you took a fiberglass boat, and continuously sailed it with out ever bumping into anything, it would start to crack and then rip apart. 

It again becomes pretty simple, if you bounce a more used boat against the dock, it will suffer greater damages then a comparably built less used boat. You will notice that I didn't use the term older or newer, this is because I didn't want to get hammered by a bunch of "what if the boat has sat in a barn for the last ten years " or " these boats were built thicker then the newer ones ". You guys are not going to change the laws of physics, no matter how much you love your boat.


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## poopdeckpappy (Jul 25, 2006)

I think the bottom line is that the owner tends to give up passion long before the boat gives up the ghost

I have more confidence in a hull that was laided up in the 60's and early 70's than I do a hull that was laided up in the late 70's and later, mainly because of the impact the EPA had on the industry and the cost cuts most builder did ( mostly in the labor sector ) just to stay aloft.

Personally, I love the lines, the woodwork and character of older boats moreso than the newer ones and I have no problem paying 50,60,70 grand for a well cared for boat and sinking another 30,40,50 grand into it just to sail it in all it's glory.

But with all that aside, it still comes down to who throws out the ghost first, and it's usually the owners.


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

To the original poster's question, I'd say that a boat that surveys out well, is used prudently, and maintained religiously will certainly give you the many years of service you are looking for. Modify any of the three qualifiers and you can be looking at either great expense or a worn out boat.

The dan and cam debate reminds me of the '56 Porsche versus the '71 VW debate I had with my step-father. You know what I wanted. A minor detail that the engine was in a couple of milk crates, after all, how difficult can it be to rebuild it. Sure they only made 200 of 'em, and 5 are known to have made their way to NA, that's why I want it. The step-father was patient, after all he was a car-guy too, and explained that what I wanted had nothing to do with the fact that I needed to drive to NY from Michigan, repeatedly.

Everything wears out. The economic life of a merchant ship is 20-30 years in ocean trade. Merchant hulls reach 100 years of service on the Great Lakes with regularity. In the case of synthetic resins and fibers, the UV light will eventually have it's day, if something traumatic does not happen first.

Dan and Cam both make good points. Because I have a 1973 Chevy Vega is my garage, in mint condition, it does not necessarily follow that Vegas will last 34 years, or that they are even very good cars. I can keep it in mint condition with limited driving and obssessive maintenance. If I let a couple of paint dings go, within a few years, not tomorrow, I'm going to have a rust problem. I can fix them and be back to "mint". I can sell it, he can fix them, and be back to "mint". But, eventually, somebody is going to buy it, drive it, and not do the maintenance necessary to maintain it. And then it's gonna die, usually quicker than one would think due to hidden aging.

Boats are really no different. We know that fiberglas has a lifespan. We just don't know what it's potential lifespan can be with proper treatment and maintenace. Given the way most boats are treated, sail or power, we rarely get to the point where we say her hull is worn out. The reason a lot of those hulls on the Great Lakes don't make 100 years is that 100 years is a lot of years to be avoiding collision, grounding, and other catastrophes.

Under maintenance, most people do not want to spend the time and expense of refurbishing or renewing things on their boat or car. Your old car squeeks and clunks because there are about a 100-200 rubber bushings and donuts on it that are worn out or degraded. Are you going to replace them? Re-bedding deck hardware, thru-hulls, chainplates, etc... ought to be done every "pick-a-number". Let's say 20 years, that shouldn't be too controversial. If you are the owner who got years 15-20 out of the boat, you're golden. If you are year 20 and on-going owner, you're work is cut out for you. Hopefully you bought right. That's if you wish to maintain the boat in Bristol fashion. You may determine that you can sail her hard for 5-10 years and when she's done, it's over. And, even then, some Dutchman like me will probably buy her right and spend five years restoring her.

So, we really don't know the lifespan of a given boat, anymore than we do a car. All we know for sure is that, twenty or thirty years after our production year, there are a lot fewer still going than were produced. Certain things help. If, in 1972, instead of a Chevy Vega, we'd bought a M-B 240D, we'd probably have greater odds of it still running 30 years later. Irrespective of that, if it was maintained rigorously and used gently the odds go up. Hence, the desirability of one owner cars/boats. There's a 21' Cal, like mine, for sale. "Nodrog" has been owned by the same family since launching in 1973. they've had other boats too, I believe. If I was guessing, having never seen the boat, I'd bet she's either really worn out or in ship shape condition. Considering the family loves the boat, and the owner is getting on in years, I'd probably wager on the latter. By the same token, there are 10 year old boats, on their third owner, and the underlying damage done by the first owner's collision with the dock has never been repaired correctly. It's now no longer a simple matter of re-bedding a stanchion, the damage has metastasized. Now we have lamination issues.

Cam's point that we really don't know how long she'll last is valid. If she was of sound timber when built and maintained, there is every reason to believe that the capability is there to outlast our lifespan.

Dan's point, that at some point in time, the maintenance begins to eat us up and it's just not worth the time and money to do so is what happens to almost all boats eventually. And it is up to the prospective buyer to know what he is willing to spend and do to restore a boat with "issues". There are literally thousands of boats that we see every year, gaze upon and think, "with a little time and money". Those of us with a few years under the keel know that we might be able to finesse the money part to an extent, but the time part is non-negotiable and it is never a "little" time. This doesn't mean it not "do-able", but some of us want to go sailing or need to go to NY.

I bought the VW, it was the right choice, but I still think about that Porsche.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Interesting....

I find Danjarch's fatalistic view a tad alarming, as would anyone with an early edition FG vessel if they bought into it.

But I'm with Cam on this one, it's too soon to know. Fiberglass boat building is a relatively young technology in this field, (compared to wood and steel, for example) and it's quite possible that, esp in the case of the early heavy overbuilt boats, their life span could be much longer than some believe.

The most notable failure in recent times would be the Austrailian AC boat a few years back, but that is clearly due to pushing the edge on lightweight high tech construction and design (and incredible loads on the rig)

Most chainsaw candidates are likely due to neglect, mishandling, storm damage or initial poor construction or design. 

I would hope that the number of bounces off the dock would not come into it - learn to handle your boat!!


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## danjarch (Jun 18, 2007)

Well stated, Sailaway. There is this sunken schooner I pass every so often, I offered to buy her on the cheap years ago, before she sunk. I offer to take her and pull her up, just after she sunk, but was refused both times. She's been sitting half submerged for over three years now. It's just sad.


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## danjarch (Jun 18, 2007)

Faster, This forum is mostly made up of amateurs, most of them have a lot of yachting experience, most are really smart and great sailors, but still amateurs. Fiber glass boat building has long sense passed it's infancy. In the professional world of boating: tow boats, marina launches, rentals, police boats, and other boat that are used on a more or less daily basis, there is little debate about how long you can keep a fiber glass boat serviceable.

I haven't once in this thread, said that you shouldn't buy an older boat. It's a largely personal choice to make. I answered the question proposed. How long can you expect an older boat to keep going.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Some of you must be quite bored in that you are writing mini-novels saying what I said in a sentence or two....
...as for dock damage or whatever, a serious crack in an old FG hull is easily spotted and repaired...


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## Tartan34C (Nov 21, 2006)

Fiberglass is not an unknown material today. A lot of papers have been written and a lot of testing has been done to put numbers to this question of useful life span. Three studies immediately come to mind and they are the cutting of sections from a particular Coast Guard motor life boat every 10 years over the life of the boat, the cutting of sections from the fairing around the sail on a submarine also on a set schedule and the study done by Gibbs & Cox at the request of Owens Corning to determine the design properties and fatigue life of polyester laminates. In 40 years of testing the mechanical properties of the glass did not change in any of the tests on the motor lifeboat or submarine. And the testing done by Gibbs & Cox set a design value for stress cycles that translates into some huge number that meant you had to sail every day in above average wind and seas for over 70 years to see a change for a properly designed structure. Unfortunately I don’t have the papers in front of me so I can’t give you exact numbers but glass is going to be around for a long time.

The thing you want to pay attention to is the design and construction of the boat. A weak design will fail in just a few years and a suitable design has proven itself over 40 years and its still going strong. The debate should be about how to care for the glass and what constitutes a good design. The things like superficial crazing of the surface of the waterproofing of the underwater areas of the boat are things that need to be addressed. Buy a suitable boat for the sailing you do and take care of her and she will outlast you.
All the best,
Robert Gainer


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## danjarch (Jun 18, 2007)

Oh well, it's been fun, but my girl is coming over and I should really vacume this place. See you guys later.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Maintaining Fiberglass 
Regular fiberglass care prolongs boat life 

Fiberglass boats are maintenance free. You'll read it and hear it while you're looking at boats, but don't believe a word of it. I suppose in comparison to wooden boats, fiberglass boats might be termed "virtually maintenance free," but you'd still better plan to spend a few weekends to keep that dream boat in perfect shape. Let's take a look at some of the areas you'll need to work on, starting at the bottom and working upwards. 

Bottom
The underwater surfaces of your boat need to be protected from the growth of barnacles and algae, even if you only plan to leave your boat in the water for a short time. You'll find noticeable growth in a few days in most areas, and barnacles that attach themselves to an unprotected hull can permanently scar the fiberglass surface. The solution is to cover the entire bottom with so-called "antifouling" paint, which contains various poisons to retard growth. There are a multitude of different antifouling paints, designed for different areas and different boat types. A racing sailboat, for example, should have a hard antifouling paint so that drag is kept to a minimum. A cruising sailboat might use a softer bottom paint since speed isn't as much of a concern as the longevity of the paint. Talk to owners of similar boats as well as boatyards and boat dealers to see what they recommend in your area. Some paint companies formulate different paints depending upon the area, since growth occurs more rapidly in warm climates such as Florida and California than it does in colder waters of the northern areas. 

Whatever paint you choose, be sure that the bottom is prepared correctly. Bare fiberglass should be etched with a chemical preparation or carefully sanded to insure good adhesion of the paint. If you have to sand down an existing antifouling paint, be sure you wear a breathing mask and clothing to keep the dust off your skin, since the paint is still poisonous. The majority of boatyards and do-it-yourselfers use rollers to apply the bottom paint, and you'll find that the average boat can be done in a few hours. 

Topsides
The topsides of a boat are the area between the waterline and the rail, and they take a tremendous beating from the effects of spray, sun, and even the occasional brush with a pier. Fiberglass boats have the color molded into the surface gelcoat, but you'll need to polish the topsides at least yearly to keep it bright and shiny. Without care, the color layer can oxidize, causing white hulls to turn dull and colored hulls to take on a hazy cast. To keep the fiberglass in like-new condition, you should wax it regularly, using a wax formulated for marine use since automotive waxes don't have the fillers needed to seal the pores in the gel coat. If you wax the hull regularly, you'll never need to worry about any oxidation, but you'd be the exception. Most of us have to use a mild rubbing compound first to remove the haze and then finish up with a good marine wax to restore the shine. You can do it by hand, but you'll be a lot happier if you buy or rent an automotive buffer with several different pads. Keep the buffer moving so it doesn't heat up the fiberglass and watch out for edges or corners where you can accidentally buff through the color coat. 

Deck
The deck of your boat also takes a beating from the sun, from dirt and grime ground in by the non-slip treads of deck shoes, and even from an occasional spilled coffee or soft drink. Regular washings with fresh water and a mild soap will keep the deck clean, and most stains can be removed with a liquid detergent. The non-slip areas of the deck should never be waxed, but you can get the rough surface clean by using a stiff-bristled brush. If a stain is particularly stubborn, you might try a little household abrasive cleanser on it, but never use the cleanser on a smooth fiberglass surface! Smooth areas of the cabin sides can be waxed just like the hull, but don't wax any area where you're likely to walk. 

Wood
Most fiberglass sailboats have a minimum amount of wood on the deck, but you'll still have to take care of whatever there is. Teak is both the easiest and the most difficult material, since you have a variety of choices and finishes. Teak can be left alone until it weathers to a whitish-gray finish that some people like and others hate. If you'd rather have the look of Scandinavian furniture, then you'll want to use one of the commercial teak oils on your teak. This is, however, an on-going commitment since the teak oil isn't permanent. The teak will start to darken after one season so you'll have to remove the oil by chemicals or sanding and then re-oil the teak. The last method is to varnish the teak, but teak is such an oily wood that you need extra care to insure that the varnish adheres properly. Like oil, you'll need to renew your varnish yearly, and more often if you're in a sunny climate or if your varnish is chipped or scuffed. 

The other common wood found on fiberglass sailboats is mahogany, which has it's own set of requirements. Mahogany can be finished with varnish, but you'll probably like the color better if you use a wood stain first to enhance the grain and even out the tones. After one or two seasons, you'll see that chips in the varnish have allowed saltwater to seep in and darken the mahogany. If it doesn't bother you, then you can simply varnish over the dark spots, but if you prefer more perfection, you'll need to strip off the varnish, sand and bleach the bare wood, re-stain and re-varnish. That sounds like a lot of trouble for a toe-rail or cockpit coaming, but it makes a pleasant afternoon project. 

Interior
The interior of your boat is likely to have a variety of materials that will need your attention periodically. The bulkheads may be solid wood, veneer, formica, or simply painted plywood and you'll need to find out which is which before you do any maintenance. If you plan to varnish the bulkheads or other wood areas, you might want to use a satin finish varnish to reduce the reflections and glare, although a gloss finish can certainly make your boat sparkle. 

Bunk cushions should be aired out regularly to prevent mildew, particularly if they've gotten wet. The salt that remains after a cushion dries will pick up moisture from the air and create a damp feeling. You can have the cushions professionally cleaned, or you can simply remove the foam and hose down the fabric cover to get rid of most of the dirt and salt. 

Mast and Rigging
The rigging and gear on a sailboat should be maintained as regularly as you have your car tuned up. The aluminum mast should be rinsed off to remove corrosive salt spray as well as dirt that can stain sails, and you should plan to go aloft several times a year to check everything over. The wire shrouds and stays should be inspected for kinks or broken strands (replace them immediately if you find any!), the spreaders should be cleaned off and the tape protecting the spreader tips should be replaced. Once a year, you should plan to put a coat of car wax on your mast to help it resist the elements and make it easier to clean. If your mast is anodized, it'll be less likely to pit, but bare aluminum will soon develop a coat of oxidation. You can leave it alone, since it doesn't affect strength, you can lightly wet-sand and wax the mast yearly to reduce the corrosion, or you can paint the spar. Modern two-part finishes should be sprayed by a professional, but they can assure you of a flawless mast for many seasons. 

Winches should be disassembled, the residue of old grease, dirt and salt removed, and then the manufacturers instructions should be followed to lubricate and reassemble them. All running rigging should be inspected regularly, but once a year you should make a point to dump all your lines into fresh water for a good rinsing to restore their original flexibility. 

Sails 
You'll find yourself checking your sails as you sail, and any small rips or tears should be repaired immediately before they grow larger. It's a good idea to leave your sails with your sailmaker yearly for the inspection and repair of any flaws, and many sailmakers can have your sails washed for you at the same time. In Dacron, the material rarely fails except when pierced by a sharp object but, since the fabric is so hard, the stitching remains on top rather than sinking in. This means that any chafing on mast or rigging is directly on the stitching, which can wear or break. Given annual attention, a set of sails can have years of useful life. 

Engines
Even though the wind is your primary power, your engine should be ready to perform when you need it, and that will only happen if you take care of it. There's nothing mystical about keeping your engine tuned, but it is something that you want to schedule regularly. Unlike your car, however, where you think in terms of mileage between servicings, you'll want to think in months for your boat. Even if you only use your boat occasionally, plan to change the oil and check the engine over as though you'd used it regularly. Like any engine, marine power plants need clean oil and fuel, a fully-charged battery and a reasonable state of tune. Diesels are less picky than gasoline engines, but don't let your guard down. Check the alternator/generator belts for wear, check the oil levels whenever you leave the dock, check the cooling system for leaks, and watch the bilge area under the engine for oil leaks. Spark plug wires tend to self-destruct rapidly in the marine atmosphere, as do the distributor points, so be sure to carry spares and plan to change them on a regular basis. 

Sound like a lot of work? It's really not bad at all, and most boat owners enjoy the rituals of keeping their boat in tip-top shape. If you plan ahead, make a list of projects, and see that they get done, you'll find that your boat will look and run like new for years.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

We really don't know how long a GRP hull can last. They don't really rot. The older hulls, which were often laid up with far heavier schedules than newer boats may well last 70+ years. I don't think that is true of the newer, cored construction hulls—which are subject to far more forms of degradation than the older solid laminate hull are.


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

Only time will tell....
Just a note on police and other rescue boats, since they were mentioned. Police, Fire, and others have long since switched to Aluminum or composite. Unsinkable, self righting boats are the preferred method of transport. And of course when I say unsinkable, I mean as unsinkable as unsinkable can be in reality. The boats are extremely strong and will resist damage to a higher breaking point. The trade off being that when they fail, it is catastrophic. But, unlike us, the government just goes out and buys a replacement.


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## Tartan34C (Nov 21, 2006)

USCGRET1990,
How fast can you type?  Even if I had that much to say it would take me the day to type it.
All the best,
Robert Gainer


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

sailingdog said:


> We really don't know how long a GRP hull can last. They don't really rot. The older hulls, which were often laid up with far heavier schedules than newer boats may well last 70+ years. I don't think that is true of the newer, cored construction hulls-which are subject to far more forms of degradation than the older solid laminate hull are.


My boat is old, by most anyones standards, 43 now. The awe and amasement of bot the surveyor and broker as to how this boat was built said a lot. And now, they were not working together to BS me. It has never had osmosis and i have seen the surveys way back. It has had many upgrades over the years by several owners and in many ways is in far better shape that boats 1/4 it's age. Soon it will get a new barrier coat and thru hulls, just to make sure. Im betting this boat will sill be looking good and sailing far long after Im gone.
Compairing GRP boat hulls to Aluminum aircraft frames is apples and lima beans, not even close enough to be oranges.
Looking at the constuction of some of the newer boats out there, I'll bet my life on my safe old well constructed boat over a plastic bathtub boat any day.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Tartan34C said:


> USCGRET1990,
> How fast can you type?  Even if I had that much to say it would take me the day to type it.
> All the best,
> Robert Gainer


Google- Research/Cut and Paste...Cut and Paste...lets all say blah, blah, blah...


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Robert...thank you for the real data on this issue! It is always nice to have more than an opinion!!


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## Sapperwhite (Oct 21, 2006)

Tartan34C,
So you are saying I should try to base my technical posts on fact rather than some wild ass garbage I heard from some old dude in the marina that looked like he knew some stuff about boats???...........bummer.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

poopdeckpappy said:


> But with all that aside, it still comes down to who throws out the ghost first, and it's usually the owners.


I suppose by that logic, an 80 year old owner of a "classic plastic" would be well advised to sell only to a 65 year old new retiree with plenty of bucks, skills and time to do deck recorings, rotted stringer replacements and engine rebuilds.

Then the 65 year old gets a good 15 years until the boat is finally finished.


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## seabreeze_97 (Apr 30, 2006)

Whenever I think about the day when age might be an issue with a glass boat, I look to examples like this:
Atom Voyages | Islander Taipan 28 Refit Photos
Shows what happens when a boat is built with lighter GRP and inferior products, and what can be done to make it better than new. All said and done, it's still a lot less expensive than buying a new one. And then there's the now 43 y/o Glissando, found in a field, open to the elements for who knows how long. The cored deck needed replacement, but the non-cored, too thick glass hull was fine. 
Pearson Triton #381 Glissando | Preparing the Hull for Painting


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## poopdeckpappy (Jul 25, 2006)

Valiente said:


> I suppose by that logic, an 80 year old owner of a "classic plastic" would be well advised to sell only to a 65 year old new retiree with plenty of bucks, skills and time to do deck recorings, rotted stringer replacements and engine rebuilds.
> 
> Then the 65 year old gets a good 15 years until the boat is finally finished.


Huh ????

Doesn't matter if your 25,65,or 105, the point was, it don't matter how old the boat is, as long as you want to keep it alive, then you'll keep it alive


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## Gramp34 (Oct 5, 2006)

danjarch said:


> A better way to learn about long term effect on materials is to look at airplanes. A airplanes fuselage almost never comes into contact with any other hard objects. However, after repeated long term flexing, it will start to crack, then rips apart. If you took a fiberglass boat, and continuously sailed it with out ever bumping into anything, it would start to crack and then rip apart.


Danjarch,

What you're talking about is fatigue. Fatigue occurs when materials are repeatedly loaded and unloaded with stress above their endurance limits.

For fiberglass, the endurance limit is about 25% of its strength -- if the cyclic working stresses stay under this level, it doesn't fatigue.

Older boats were way overbuilt by today's standards. I have drawings here for a 46 foot ketch from the early 60s. Its topsides over the front half of the boat are a full 3/4" thick, tapering to 1/2" at the transom. Below the waterline it gets thicker yet. It also has structural stringers and bulkheads. Using the American Bureau of Shipping rule for composite boat scantlings, this hull is close to twice as thick as the rule today calls for. The strength of panels in bending goes up with the square of the thickness, so the stress in the fiberglass of this hull would be about a quarter of the stress seen in the ABS spec hull. Hulls like this will never fatigue.

Comparing fatigue in aircraft and boats is apples and oranges. Aircraft need to be as light as possible to fly. The factor of safety is typically 1.1, that is, the strength of each part of a plane is only 10% greater than the maximum load they expect that part to see. The stresses are much closer to the material's strength, and fatigue sets in quite quickly (thousands of cycles instead of millions or billions).

Boats, on the other hand, are designed to considerably higher factors of safety. Planing powerboats need to be light to plane, and they do lots of pounding on waves, so they do get into the stress levels that fatigue fiberglass. Racing sailboats are designed to be as light as possible so they put their hulls under high stress loads and they fatigue too (what people mean when they say a hull has become "soft"). Cruising boats, however, especially old heavily built ones, are much less likely to fail from fatigue.

So, getting back to the original poster's question, I say there's a lot of life left in that Alberg.

Cheers,

Tim


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## pigslo (Nov 22, 2004)

How long will a fiberglass boat last in dog years?
pigslo


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I figure a well-built GRP boat should last at least 300 dog years...


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## CBinRI (May 17, 2004)

camaraderie said:


> Well...since FG boat building came into its own about 40 years ago...we should be seeing reports of hulls failing due to age...yet I've never seen anything posted here or elsewhere about that. Blisters yeah...but that affects younger boats as well.
> I am of the opinion that speculation on the longevity of FG boats is just that at this point and we really don't know how long they will last. A well built boat from the 70's like Pappy's may indeed have another 30 years or more of life and I would not hesitate to buy a boat of that era that surveys well.


I have a '76 Swan that is built like a tank and I would certainly think I'm going to get more than another ten years out of her. I think that 40 year figure is pulled out of thin air.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

poopdeckpappy said:


> Huh ????
> 
> Doesn't matter if your 25,65,or 105, the point was, it don't matter how old the boat is, as long as you want to keep it alive, then you'll keep it alive


True, but a 25 year old might have neither the time, the skills or the money to keep an aging GRP boat alive, or even on life support. If someone is getting too old to sail, as some 80 year olds are, then it's conceivable that selling it to a 65 year old, who keeps it for 15 years and then repeats the process, could extend the life of a plastic boat farther into the future than we could expect.

I know more than one young-ish person (sub-40) who bought an old sailboat for a few years only to have to sell it because while they could afford a $10K 30 footer from the '70s, they couldn't afford the time for maintaining it, having a job, a house, a spouse, kids and "other interests". The old boat, sucking time and money, ends up getting fire-sold to somebody else...until it finds an owner who can keep it alive, thanks to having spare time, some cash, and the skills.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

There is a fiberglass 1959 Rawson 30 in my marina. Yes, it is FRP. Very THICK fiberglass. All the way around. Ron Rawson was one of the pioneers in fiberglass boat building. The joke around Puget Sound was/is you could drop a Rawson from the Space Needle and sail it away. From the looks and feel of the boat, it's going to last another 48 years... (Just my amatuer opinion.)


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## CBinRI (May 17, 2004)

Moonfish said:


> There is a fiberglass 1959 Rawson 30 in my marina. Yes, it is FRP. Very THICK fiberglass. All the way around. Ron Rawson was one of the pioneers in fiberglass boat building. The joke around Puget Sound was/is you could drop a Rawson from the Space Needle and sail it away. From the looks and feel of the boat, it's going to last another 48 years... (Just my amatuer opinion.)


I hope that you are right. In addition to the '76 Fibreglass boat that we now have and hope to have for a long time, the 1965 Pearson Ensign that we used to have is still in use by another owner. The quality and strength of the fibreglass probably factors in much more than the age does. Indeed, many of these older hulls were built so much stronger that they may outlast much more recent designs.


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## poopdeckpappy (Jul 25, 2006)

Valiente said:


> True, but a 25 year old might have neither the time, the skills or the money to keep an aging GRP boat alive, or even on life support. If someone is getting too old to sail, as some 80 year olds are, then it's conceivable that selling it to a 65 year old, who keeps it for 15 years and then repeats the process, could extend the life of a plastic boat farther into the future than we could expect.
> 
> I know more than one young-ish person (sub-40) who bought an old sailboat for a few years only to have to sell it because while they could afford a $10K 30 footer from the '70s, they couldn't afford the time for maintaining it, having a job, a house, a spouse, kids and "other interests". The old boat, sucking time and money, ends up getting fire-sold to somebody else...until it finds an owner who can keep it alive, thanks to having spare time, some cash, and the skills.


Now I understand what your saying


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## nolatom (Jun 29, 2005)

I'll speak from opinion, since I don't know any real facts. Seems to me (and as others have said), we don't yet know the structural life-span of the hull of a well-built, say, 1960 boat (like a Bounty or a Pearson Triton, just to name two).

The time will come when everything but the hull becomes too much work (hull/deck connection, aluminum spars getting pitted out, wiring and engines need reneway, chain plates and mast step possibly questionable, rudder posts, stuffing boxes, interior of f.g. water tanks, headliners, interior trim, thru-hulls, new sails will cost more than the boat's worth, yada, yada), that an owner may decide it's just easier to get a newer boat.

Fair enough, but it's more of an economic and convenience decision than it is a hull-integrity decision. So I think the "simpler" old glass boats (Pearson Ariel with outboard power, minimal wiring and kerosene lamps down below, for example) may just "outlast" the larger cruisers and racers, simply because there's less "non-hull" stuff to have to keep replacing.

Down here, we have lots of "Katrina wrecks". Your heart tells you, "that's still a sound hull, I could fix it up", but your head tells you that you'd spend way more than it'd be worth. So those boats get the buzz-saw, simply because at some point repairs cost more than new construction.

So I think how long can a glass boat last is more a question of how long the owner(s) will hang in there. 

Let's talk again in 30 more years, we'll have a better idea.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I guess the only way for this to be determined is for you folks to send all your boats up here to me, with a note attached telling me when they were built. I'll spend an equal amount of time on each, and avoid hitting docks or rocks, and we'll see if any of them wear out before I croak.


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## ScrimpAndSail (Jul 10, 2007)

*counting the cost*

I've followed this thread. I've also looked at the cost of a new Catalina 350. On the new boat we're talking 160-175K depending on the options. 
Looking at a lot of the older boats for sail, a lot of even 35's of various makes can be had from 20K-35K more or less. Many with recent overhalls, newer sails etc. I understand many times people do cosmetic work to make selling easier and such. (sails purchased 2 years or more prior to sales attempts would seem to be an eception to the above).
with number differences of 160K less 35K. 125 thousand seems like a lot to have available for repairs & upgrades to an older boat. You may even be able to afford going out to an over priced touristy resturaunt. Of course all of the above seems to apply to people who can afford to sail in the first place.
I work and slave. I have a decent job. I hate it of course. Was life really meant to be this way? Horrible timing, But I've been considering selling my house at a pittance and buying an older boat. Being homeless I would be forced to live aboard. My commute to work would be almost double. I'd have to sell or get rid of all my accumultated junk. Including all my aquarium stuff I've never been able to afford (but have been succesful with anyway), & Family heirlooms I don't know what to do with. But I would be in a boat. Didn't hippies do this with old school buses? I'm Single, Have no family. Am I really supposed to spend the rest of my life working to make someone else rich, Hoping to maybe, Someday, If I work hard enough, Get a plaque showing just how much I'm appreciated?
Asside the problems of finding a comfortable single handed rig. Assuming a servicable hull, Mast, And sails. Is there anything REALISTICALLY beyond the scope of learning & do it yourself? 
Texas supposedly has fairly well priced slips. I wonder what the job market is like down there?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

> Am I really supposed to spend the rest of my life working to make someone else rich, Hoping to maybe, Someday, If I work hard enough, Get a plaque showing just how much I'm appreciated?


Uhmm yes - because if you stop, and then everyone else realises that you're having a good time, and THEY stop, then all of the really rich folks will have to get out there and do their own work and before you know it - executive salaries will be in the toilet and Bergdorf Goodman will be in Chapter 11.

So don't rock the boat ! Forget your destiny, drink more or develop a prescription drug habit, but most importantly - remain a wage slave !!!


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## jorapazu (Feb 12, 2006)

> with number differences of 160K less 35K. 125 thousand seems like a lot to have available for repairs & upgrades to an older boat


 That is why I have a 35 1972 Nicholson, fix it myself, have a lot of fun, sell everything, go sailing whille you can. 
Regards


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I know that I have posted this before. It was written for a different venue but for what it ios worth, I think it addresses the basic question on the table.


Before getting into the article, I would comment that I disagree that we don't know the life of fiberglass hulls. The insurance study that I mention below clearly made projections about the lifespan of the hulls that it studied (which tested hull panels from well known early U.S. brands like Columbia, Pearson, Bristol and others as well as a number of early fiberglass power boat builders). I also disagree with the statement that boats have not been lost do to aging of fiberglass. The study clearly says otherwise. 


"I would not think that a well- constructed fiberglass has a life span per se. Neither concrete nor fiberglass truly breaks down or loses strength simply on their own without other factors coming into play. They require other causes. In the case of fiberglass loss of strength can result from one or more of the following, 

-The surface resins will UV degrade. 
-Prolonged saturation with water will affect the byproducts formed in the hardening process turning some into acids. These acids can break down the bond between the glass reinforcing and the resin.
-Fiberglass is prone to fatigue in areas repetitively loaded and unloaded at the point where it is repetitively deflected. High load concentration areas such as at bulkheads, hull/deck joints and keel joints are particularly prone.
-Salts suspended in water will move through some of the larger capillaries within the matrix. Salts have larger molecules than water. At some point these salts cannot move further and are deposited as the water keeps moving toward an area with lower moisture content. Once dried these salt turn into a crystalline form and exert great pressure on the adjacent matrix.
-Poor construction techniques with poorly handled cloth, poorly mixed or over accelerated resins, and poor resin to fiber ratios were very typical in early fiberglass boats. These weaker areas can be actually subjected to higher stresses that result from much heavier boats. It's not all that unusual to see small spider cracking and/or small fractures in early glass boats.
-Of course beyond the simple fiberglass degradation there is core deterioration, and the deterioration of such things as the plywood bulkheads and flats that form a part of the boat's structure.

Earlier boats had heavier hulls for a lot of reasons beyond the myth that designers did not know how strong fiberglass was. Designers knew exactly how strong the fiberglass of that era actually was. The US government had spent a fortune developing fiberglass information during WWII and by the early 1950's designers had easy access to the design characteristics of fiberglass. (Alberg, for example, was working for the US Government designing F.G. composite items when he designed the Triton and Alberg 35) The reason that the hulls on the early boats were as thick as they were had more to do with the early approach to the design of fiberglass boats and the limitations of the materials and handling methods used in early fiberglass boats. Early designers and builders had hoped to use fiberglass as a monocoque structure using an absolute minimal amount (if any) framing which they felt occupied otherwise usable interior space. 

On its own, fiberglass laminate does not develop much stiffness (by which I mean resistance to flexure) and it is very dense. If you try to create the kind of stiffness in fiberglass that designers had experienced in wooden boats, it takes a whole lot of thickness which in turn means a whole lot of weight. Early fiberglass boat designers tried to simply use the skin of the boat for stiffness with wide spread supports from bulkheads and bunk flats. This lead to incredibly heavy boats and boats that were still comparably flexible compared to earlier wooden boats or more modern designs. (In early designs that were built in both wood and fiberglass, the wooden boats typically weighed the same as the fiberglass boats but were stiffer, stronger, and had higher ballast ratios) 

The large amount of flexure in these old boats was a real problem over the life of the boat. Fiberglass hates to be flexed. Fiberglass is a highly fatigue prone material and over time it looses strength through flexing cycles. A flexible boat may have plenty of reserve strength when new but over time through flexure fiberglass loses this reserve. There are really several things that determine the overall strength of the hull itself. In simple terms it is the strength of the unsupported hull panel itself (by 'panel' I mean the area of the hull or deck between supporting structures), the size of the unsupported panel, the connections to supporting structures and the strength of the supporting structures. These early boats had huge panel sizes compared to those seen as appropriate today and the connections were often lightly done.

This fatigue issue is not a minor one. In a study performed by the marine insurance industry looking at the high cost of claims made on older boats relative to newer boats, actual case studies of the comparatively large amount of collision damage that occured on older hulls, and actually doing destructive testing on actual portions of older hulls, it was found that many of these earlier boats have suffered a significant loss of ductility and impact resistance. This problem is especially prevalent in heavier uncored boats constructed starting in the 1960's and continuing even as late as the 1980's before internal structural framing systems became the norm. 

The study noted that boats built during the early years of boat building tended to use a lot more resin accelerators than are used today. Boat builders would bulk up the matrix with resin rich laminations (approaching 50/50 ratios rather than the idea 30/70), and typically used proportionately high ratios of non-directional fabrics (mat or chopped glass) in order to achieve a desired hull thickness. Resin rich laminates and non-directional materials have been shown to reduce impact resistance and to further increase the tendency towards fatigue. The absence of internal framing means that there is greater flexure in these older boats and that this flexure increases fatigue further. Apparently, there are an increasing number of marine insurance underwriters refusing to insure older boats because of these hull strength issues.

I have been looking at a lot of older fiberglass boats in the past few years. One thing that has struck me is the sheer amount of noticeable flexure cracking in areas of high stress, such as bulkheads, chainplate attachment points, hull to deck joints, cabin to deck lines, engine beds and rudder posts, and other high load hardware positions. While these areas can be reinforced by grinding away laminate and relaminating the interior and extrerior of these areas, in most cases such repairs are cost prohibitive on the comparatively low value boats. 

There are probably other forms of hull degradation that I have not mentioned but I think that the real end of the life of a boat is going to be economic. In other words the cost to maintain and repair an old boat will get to be far beyond what it is worth in the marketplace. I would guess this was the end of more wooden boats than rot. I can give you a bit of an example from land structures. When I was doing my thesis in college, I came across a government statistic, which if I remember it correctly suggested that in the years between 1948 and 1973 more houses had been built in America than in all of history before that time. In another study these houses were estimated to have a useful life span of 35 years or so. As an architect today I see a lot of thirty five year old houses that need new bathrooms, kitchens, heating systems, modern insulation, floor finishes, etc. But beyond the physical problems of these houses, tastes have changes so that today these houses in perfect shape still has proportionately small market value. With such a small market value it often does not make sense from a resale point of view to rebuild and these houses are therefore often sold for little more than land value. At some level, this drives me crazy, since we are tearing down perfectly solid structures that 35 years ago was perfectly adequate for the people who built it, but today does not meet the "modern" standards.

The same thing happens in boats. You may find a boat that has a perfectly sound hull. Perhaps it needs sails, standing and running rigging, a bit of galley updating, some minor electronics, a bit of rewiring, new plumbing, upholstery, a little deck core work, an engine rebuild, or for the big spender, replacement. Pretty soon you can buy a much newer boat in better condition with all relatively new gear for less than you'd have in the old girl. 

Its not all that hard for an old boat to suddenly be worth more as salvage than as a boat. A couple years ago a couple friends of mine were given a Rainbow in reasonable shape. She just needed sails and they wanted a newer auxiliary outboard, but even buying everything used the boat was worth a lot less than the cost of the "new" parts. When they couldn't afford the slip fees, the Rainbow was disposed of. She now graces a landfill and the cast iron keel was sold for scrap for more than they could sell the whole boat for. 

Then there is the issue of maintainable vs. durable/low maintenance design concepts. Wooden boats for example represent the difference between a maintainable construction method versus a low maintenance/ durable method. A wooden boat can be rebuilt for a nearly infinite period of time until it becomes a sailing equivalent of 'George Washington's axe' (as in "that's George Washington's axe. It's had a few new handles and a few new heads but that is still George Washington's axe".) The main structure of a fiberglass hull is reasonably durable and low maintenance but once it has begun to lose strength, there is nothing that you can do. 

The best deals on older used boats are the ones that someone has lovingly restored, upgraded, and maintained. Over the years they have poured lots of money and lavished lots of time into maintaining the boat in reasonably up to date condition. No matter how much they have spent the boat will never be worth anything near what they have in it because there is a real ceiling to how much an older boat will ever be worth and they will often have several times that ceiling invested.

And finally if you buy an old fiberglass boat, paint the bilges white. It does nothing for the boat, but if you ever have to sell the boat, then someone may look in your bilge and say "Lets buy her because any owner who would love a boat so much that he went through the trouble to paint the bilge white must have enjoyed this boat and taken great care of her no matter what her age."

Good Luck,
Jeff


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

poopdeckpappy said:


> Now I understand what your saying


I was typing from the aft deck with my assistant present, Ms. D.N. Stormee. Lovely thing, but a tad distracting.


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

Valiente said:


> I was typing from the aft deck with my assistant present, Ms. D.N. Stormee. Lovely thing, but a tad distracting.


Valiente,
You're working aboard with an assisant? Sounds like an Old Milwaukee beer commercial: "It don't get no better than this..."


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

I had a ménage à trois of DNS's last Saturday night . . . was more than a tad distracting.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

TB-

DNS stands for Did Not Sail???


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

Did Not Sail, after the three Dark 'n Stormies.


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## drinkorum (Jul 10, 2007)

*Old glass*

I do not think that all FRP hulls have finite lifespans; paradoxically, some of the oldest are the heaviest built and may outlast most newer ones. I have a Bermuda 40, launched in 1960. Blue Chantey has had 3 owners and 3 auxiliary engines, god knows how many sails (although I have a nice old nylon mizzen staysail with the date 1964 on it that still does the job), and has been refitted with wiring, tanks and various devices beyond numbering.

As for the hull (B40 #10), I removed the original jellcoat a few years ago and replaced it - the old one became cracked. The substrate, however, tested to be as sound as the day(s) it was first rolled into the mould. No core, of course, just matt and roving, layor after layor, including the deck.

As for myself, I would prefer an older boat if for no other reason than the new ones, with a few exceptions, do not reflect my personal idea of what a boat should look like.

Best of luck in your boat hunting.

Buell


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Drinkorum, 

Although somewhat counterintuitive, the insurance industry study of older fiberglass hulls suggested that the older heavier hulls were predicted to have shorter overall lifespans than newer lighter hulls due to their resin rich matrix's, higher non-oriented fiber content (mat), greater use of resin accelerators, and their lack of, or wider spaced internal framing. 

Manufacterers like Dolf LeCompte were aware of the problem in the 1960's and advertised that they not using accellerators or resin rich layup, and many of the British builders were experimenting with internal framing systems. I am not sure what Hinckley was doing in terms of layup and accellorators but Hinckleys of that era did not have much on the way of internal framing. 

Jeff


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

But those old B40s sure were sweet to look at.


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## Gramp34 (Oct 5, 2006)

Jeff_H said:


> Although somewhat counterintuitive, the insurance industry study of older fiberglass hulls


Is this study generally available? Sounds like it would make interesting reading.

Tim


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

That study was available online for a while, but I have tried to find it in the past year without success. It is probably about 4-5 years old now. 

It was a great source of info presented as three separate components looking at statistical data on repair costs to older boats vs newer boats in similar accidents, some case study data on actual accidents and repairs, and then the really telling part, destructive testing of actual hull panels cut from existing boats. 

That was the part that was so amazing. To begin with, what surprised me was that older boats hull panels just were not all that much thicker and heavier than the boats that followed them. The report clearly concluded that the laminates themselves started out weaker than more modern layup schedules due to poorer construction techniques and went down hill quicker than modern layups as well. 

The report also touched on other older boat issues such as prevelent use of discontinuous and lighter tabbing schedules, slurry hull to deck joints, more frequent use of encapsulated keels and the difficulty of making repairs to them once damaged. On the other hand, some of repair costs associated with these items were offset by the common practice of fully FRP lining modern boats. 

Jeff


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## kennya (Jul 10, 2006)

Jeff H

Is there an age line to distinguish between the older construction and the new construction techniques? I know there is a lot of talk of 0n late 70 early 80’s rosin formulas, are we to assume this same time period as distinguishing old versus new boats?


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I don't think that there is a specific date after which materials and methods changed. I think that the evolution in building methods occurred at different times for individual builders and designers. Frankly, there are still boats being built with minimal internal structure and comparatively outdated laminating procedures.

Jeff


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

The answer is that no one really knows how long a fiberglass boat will last. When I was researching boats recently, I decided that condition was the most important consideration. I bought a 45 year old boat that surveyed very good. It was designed for cruising and heavily built. 

My intent is that at the end of 20 years the boat will be in better shape than today, and my costs should still be less than they would be if I had bought a new boat. 

I feel an obligation to her to see that she gets everything she needs to continue a great sailing life. She has earned the right to be cared for.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*How old is my boat??*

Last two digits of the hin is 74 but,

the boat was repowered in 1996,

the mast and rigging was replaced in 2006, thanks to hurricane ivan

the most of the interior was replaced in 1988

the winches got replaced in 2001

the sails was replaced in 2003

the hull was barrier coated 2005

so do i have a 33 year old boat, or do i average these years together??


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## Paysay (Apr 4, 2007)

Of all the system on a FRP sailboat the hull, baring some disaster, will be the last system to fail. The chainsaw will claim the hull after the engine siezes, the transmission fails, the sails blow out, the deck core rots, the rigging fails, the brightwork gets dull and ... all the other things that can go wrong with an old boat do. Or, some smuck like me will fall in love with the lines of this once beautiful creature and...you know the rest of the story.


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## Gene Smith (May 10, 2006)

*Life span of GRP*

What we call fiberglas actually gets stronger with age. Comparisons of aircraft metal fatigue with monocoque glass reinforced plastic failure is a stretch at best. I wouldn't worry about an old fiberglas boat breaking apart simply from age. A stoutly built boat from the '60's, and '70s will be sailing fine many years from now IF she's pretty enough to someone to be well cared for. I have one of Bill Shaw's Pearsons that we learned to sail on the past 12 years and she has no cracks or groans. She is sailed EVERY weekend 3 seasons in the ocean and at age 30 shows no signs of being "tired". When reaching at hull speed in 6' swells in 18 kts do I think of the hull breaking apart?

No I don't!

The one most important thing you can do to protect the hull of your boat in addition to a quality barrier coat is to keep the bilge bone dry. This is because the pool of water in a bilge is able to migrate into the laminate. I also like a bone dry bilge when I'm at the wheel and something goes bump. When a crew says "bilge is dry"- That's a lot better than "a little water".

A little water??!!! How much? More than before?? Check again!

No water is always best. Fit a drip-less shaft log and track down all the little leaks. Most leaks are a nuisance- at first. They ALL lead to degradation of the boat. If you have water coming in it most likely is wrecking something on its way to the bilge. Don't ignore fresh water leaks from the tanks. Fresh water causes osmosis faster that salt water because it is less dense.

You are off the hook for your GRP hull breaking apart simply from age. Neglect and lack of use are the real killers. Can you afford a yacht? Only if you can pay for it AND use it often too! If you can't sail often you're probably better off chartering-


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## Gryzio (Dec 13, 2007)

*A boat can outlive the onwer*

When I was younger I had worked for 2 different boat dealers. I seen some old fiberglass (Old for the time). Wood boats have had centuries (Plural) to prove themselves.

Fiberglass only has about a good century (OK, maybe not, it getting there). 

There always the if, if this and if that. Heck, I can take a wood boat and with not care it be dead. Proper care it will live on. 

What a person need to know is the reliability of the builder.

For example; a Herreshoff or Bruce Roberts designed boat; Fiberglass/Wood that not what matter.

It the Builder!

Many boats may be called by the name of the designer (The person who draw up the plans, like a house architect). I can buy Bruce Roberts plans today! I can build the boat! But, the bottom line ...... How good am I in doing this?

If, the builder try to cut costs and use Elmer's Wood Glue instead of Epoxy then his Herreshoff may not be a good idea.

So, to myself, it not if wood/fiberglass boats are good. I know some will be around after I am gone.

The question; "Is the builder still in business"? or if he dead/whatever; "Did he leave behind a legacy"?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Gene Smith said:


> What we call fiberglas actually gets stronger with age. Comparisons of aircraft metal fatigue with monocoque glass reinforced plastic failure is a stretch at best. I wouldn't worry about an old fiberglas boat breaking apart simply from age. A stoutly built boat from the '60's, and '70s will be sailing fine many years from now IF she's pretty enough to someone to be well cared for. I have one of Bill Shaw's Pearsons that we learned to sail on the past 12 years and she has no cracks or groans. She is sailed EVERY weekend 3 seasons in the ocean and at age 30 shows no signs of being "tired". When reaching at hull speed in 6' swells in 18 kts do I think of the hull breaking apart?


I'm not quite sure how you came up with this idea...but the glass fibers that provide fiberglass with most of its strength get weaker with age...and fatigue with flex and use.


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## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

Hmm, my old girl is 46 and if build quality is a major part of survivability, she'll likely outlast me.


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## Idiens (Jan 9, 2007)

When I was looking for a boat, I plotted the prices of all the boats I could find in the 35 to 40ft range. It was noticeable that depreciation worked quite well up to twenty years old. Prices stabilised around twenty to thirty years old and then went wild older than 40 years.

I think this means that boats built pre-1960 need a lot of love to keep them on the market, or even afloat. So there are some ancient beauties that are commanding high prices, but there is also a lot of scrap out there pleading for rescue.

Steel and Ali hulls have a scrap value. 

Ferro concrete and GRP - how do you dispose of them?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

A chainsaw and a dumpster.  You can sell the lead or iron from the keel though.


Idiens said:


> When I was looking for a boat, I plotted the prices of all the boats I could find in the 35 to 40ft range. It was noticeable that depreciation worked quite well up to twenty years old. Prices stabilised around twenty to thirty years old and then went wild older than 40 years.
> 
> I think this means that boats built pre-1960 need a lot of love to keep them on the market, or even afloat. So there are some ancient beauties that are commanding high prices, but there is also a lot of scrap out there pleading for rescue.
> 
> ...


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## sailorjohn34 (Nov 29, 2010)

hmm... the way I see it.. you can always add more fiberglass to reinforce any area that seems to be getting weak. how many of the 100 year old + boats have all thier original planks? I've abused my boat for the last 5 years.. she hasn't had bottom paint in 10 years, she's 1/2" thick at her tops and over one inch at her keel, she shows no blisters, and she still won't flex. granted she was build in a garage in 1971 by a man and his son, she's a good example of how long they can last unattended. she's been neglected as I've been sailing my catalina 27 all over the pacific. I've put over 90,000 miles on my catalina in the past 8 years and just lost her last week in the worst storm southern california has seen in 2 years.. as to why I was out in a storm... santa barbara harbor denied me safe harbor due to lack of funds since I had just lost my wallet and all my money. 
let's see how many of the newer thin layup boats are still going strong in 30 or 40 years... I'll bet my thick frp boat is still going... I hope she is anyhow.


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## SJ34 (Jul 30, 2008)

My former Dyer Dink is still going strong at 81yrs old. I did a complete restoration on her 20 yrs ago. My Cal25 is still very sound at 43 and my San Juan is like new at 24. 

My former Lightning had a date with a chainsaw because of severe neglect by her first owner. His answer to maintenance was to slap on another layer of glass. I spent a couple of years chasing rot between sailing seasons then gave up and scrapped her.


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## centaursailor (Nov 7, 2010)

Have to say the Fiber Glass failing and falling apart theory dosn,t hold much water. My 1975 Westerly Centaur just passed her 5 year survey with no structural issues. Shes built to Loydds of London standards and the hull is I inch thick GRP. There are a few small skin blisters below the waterline and I may pop and fill them someday. As they are superficial I recon she,ll see me out and my son has already decided he wants her in the will. Any boat can give problems but the solidly built GRP ones will take a fair bit of abuse and keep going. 
Regards Brian


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## SkywalkerII (Feb 20, 2008)

Just thought of a couple of points to add.

Boats in the northeast sit on stands 6 months out of the year.
Boats sit in slips or on moorings 80% of the time
Boats rarely go out in 20+ kts

So, boats rarely see stress. Age and deterioration are probably bigger factors for most boats.


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## CaptainJesse (Dec 18, 2010)

You, nor your offspring's offspring will see the day that this particular boat will collapse into a pile of glass and resin rubble. With minimal maintenance this boat should outlast anyone we know. If I am not mistaken, the USCG, as of several years ago, still had in operation a 1948 fiberglass boat. My brother recently sold his 1958 Pearson yawl to a young couple who sanded and painted the topsides, deck and house surface, installed new port lights and thru-hull fittings, replaced the wooden rudder with a fiberglass unit, restored the gasoline Atomic 4 and are now motoring about awaiting their new sails.


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## HeartsContent (Sep 14, 2010)

The fact is that no fiberglass boat has cracked in half and sunk. There is no record of a catastrophic failure of a fiberglass boat due to it's age. We simply do not know the "end-date" on a fiberglass boat's fiberglass.

Bad designs and building shortcuts along with poor workmanship would be my bigger concerns.

But it's fun to watch the know-it-alls go at it!


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

HeartsContent said:


> The fact is that no fiberglass boat has cracked in half and sunk. ...


Though we're not talking production cruisers.....


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

HeartsContent said:


> The fact is that no fiberglass boat has cracked in half and sunk. There is no record of a catastrophic failure of a fiberglass boat due to it's age. We simply do not know the "end-date" on a fiberglass boat's fiberglass.


Actually that is very far from the truth. About 10 years ago the marine insurance industry did a widely circulated study of older boats which had suffered catastrophic failures, and the report looked a wide range of failures including boats which had failures while simply sailing. There was a long list of case studies. These included failures of the hull adjacent to keel areas, and hull to deck joints as well as significantly greater impact damage than might otherwise be expected.

The report also included destructive testing of older boat hull panels and found that they were greatly reduced in strength from fatigue and poorer materials and lay-up techniques.

Jeff


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## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

thanks faster i couldn't remember the race my 1966 wayfarer islander Bahama 24 is up to 5 inches thick and 1 inch solid decks. sister ships have sailed around the world the only issue i have is with the deck seal on my pop top leaked and PO didn't fix it so now small rotten spot however not structural just nuisance for now tarped and will fix it in the spring (didn't show on survey last spring)


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

reason for no slips in this day if many many fiberglass abandoned boats is just that-- wood would fall apart and sink. fiberglass just doesnt fall part on a dock for no reason.


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