# Free Standing Mast



## cb32863 (Oct 5, 2009)

Are they a good thing, bad thing, or don't really matter?


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## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

subscribed!


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

Like most boat innovations, it depends on how well they are constructed. The Nonsuch has a pretty good reputation.

BTW - I assume that you are talking about cruising boats, not sailing dinghies.


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

So you ditch the shrouds, and have to increase diameter of the mast, to keep it standing upright in a blow... Now the foil (that'd be the sail), has a huge(r) bulb at the foreward end, screwing up the aerodynamics (more than the smaller mast).

The plus side is you don't have all that standing rigging to trip over/replace. Generally this "ease of use" coincides with a lack of a headsail (or at least a very small self tending headsail). This is because of the first part would require an even BIGGER diameter mast to hold up to the forces. Plus those halyards are like shrouds only softer (to trip over).

I dunno. For simplicity, they get my vote. For speed... I think I'd move on. But then I am a tweaker, and love a challenge (and apparently changing standing rigging every 5 years).


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

I can see advantages in what concerns no backstay (uncluttered transom and fuller main sail). I can also see some disadvantages regarding performance sailing in what regards control of the sail shape and probably a lesser resistance to breaking.

regarding a free mast, it has the advantage of simplicity, to put in and out but not to break such a mast has to be flexible and that means that the sails would change shape without any control of the skipper.

That would be a no no in what regards any kind of performance sailing.

To be able to stand alone, a mast would also have to be stronger than a stayed mast and that means more expensive and that matters a lot.

Regarding resistance to breaking, I don't believe that a free mast has the same resistance to breaking as a stayed mast. I mean the same mast with and without stays.

There are others that think otherwise (not many because we don't have a lot of free standing masts on cruising boats). The big defender of free mast is Eric Sponberg .

Here you can read what he thinks about the subject:

State of the Art

Regards

Paulo


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## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

You also have to consider the structure that will support the unstayed mast. Reading about the Maltese Falcon, that was a considerable feat!


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## CrazyRu (May 10, 2007)

Just sail the boat with freestanding mast for a day or two. Singlehandedly.
You will never understand rest of the crowd afterwards.
P.S. Modern freestanding masts tend to be much smaller diameter than ones on Nonsuch and Freedom


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

LandLocked66c said:


> You also have to consider the structure that will support the unstayed mast. Reading about the Maltese Falcon, that was a considerable feat!


you can build almost anything these days....but that has a cost, a big cost. If you have almost unlimited funds that is not a problem but if you are like the rest of us, well, we want the best solution for a price...and when the vastly more expensive is probably not the most efficient solution in what regards sailing, well, that does not make much sense to me.

I can't wait to see how this one will perform comparing with the Maltese Falcon.










This one has a conventional rig and I believe it will be way faster. Of course I can be wrong

Regards

Paulo


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## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

Man! That's an eye full!!! Is that his next?


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Lack of performance? Not really. And a jibe isn't a problem - in any wind strength!

Project Amazon is the first pic.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

You have more photos on one of the last posts of the interesting sailboats thread. Regarding the owner is a Russian but I suspect that the boat is to sell:

"The Dream Symphony megayacht project started just after Dream Ship Victory shipyard have attended the 2010 Monaco Yacht Show and signed a contract for her design and construction.

The contract was signed between the above mentioned naval architects Dykstra & Partners, her exterior stylists from Ken Freivokh Design and *Valeriy Stepanenko, the Owner of Dream Ship Victory shipyard.* On the 9th of February, the builders, designers and naval architects of the 141m Dream Symphony Yacht, met in Amsterdam to finalise the design and technical proposal under the direction of Valeriy Stepanenko.

Following excellent wind tunnel test results and approval of the exciting and quite unique concepts developed by the design team under the direction of Valeriy Stepanenko, the project has now received a full and enthusiastic go-ahead to move forward to construction. The keel laying will take place at Dream Ship Victory's facility in Turkey later this Summer. Once launched, Dream Symphony megayacht, that has excited all of the yachting world, will take over the title from the currently longest superyacht EOS measuring 93 m.

Dykstra & Partners - Luxury Yacht Charter & Superyacht News


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## cb32863 (Oct 5, 2009)

Was wondering as I saw a Seaward 23 that had a free standing mast. Think it is cat rigged.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

mitiempo said:


> Lack of performance? Not really. And a jibe isn't a problem - in any wind strength!
> 
> Project Amazon is the first pic.


Project Amazon was an Open 60 racer, a solo boat, that even if it was theoretically interesting because of its unusual sail and mast configuration never experienced any success regarding its more "normal" competitors. the boat was considerably slower and also more expensive to built.

That was what I meant, way more expensive and less efficient

The boat was for sale for many years with a very low price without nobody touching it. I don't now if it is sold by now.

Regards

Paulo


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## junkrig (Jun 3, 2011)

(beginning with some trepidation...)

Aside from the Freedoms, the other common free standing mast rig is the Junk Rig. First let me say that most people who sail a bermudan (pointy triangle) rig have a gut revulsion uke for the junk rig so I know what I'm getting myself into here.

The number one advantage to a freestanding mast is that you can square the main sail straight out at 90* to the boat. There are no shrouds to chafe on or stop the motion of the sail.

Second, as mentioned above, you can't break anything (except your skull) in a surprise jibe. The jibe isn't the problem, it's the sudden stop when the boom hits the shrouds. Otherwise, after a while the sail just dumps the wind and stops.

Although there have been several posts already regarding the potential for breakage on a free standing mast, one can only look at the frequency of dismasting because one measly shroud breaks.  I would disregard any claim that the risk of breaking a free standing mast is higher. Stuff does break, there's no doubt to that.

It is true that, in order to be free standing, the mast must be bigger than a stayed mast. Think of it as the stays being "inside" the mast. On the other hand, it is not necessarily true that the mast adds windage or weight aloft, because stays themselves have windage and weight aloft. (And make a lotta noise.) Add to that spreaders and other hardware, and the difference is debatable and would take considerable wind tunnel research to get a definitive answer. Damfino.

Most junk boats are conversions, because one thing that can't be denied is that the pointy white triangle sells better. It takes a certain kind of hard head to go against conventional thought. There have been, that I know of, three companies that have tried to compete by offering factory junk rigs, and they're all gone now... of course, most of the other sailboat companies that existed in the twentieth century are gone now too, but still, there it is.

Most junk conversions carry about 20% more sail than the original total of the bermudan rig on the same boat, due to ease of reefing and management. This, plus the ability to square the sail right off, gives a hands-down advantage off the wind, unless measured against someone who chooses to use a spinnaker. Typically one will find that the bermudan rig has the advantage on a beat, and a well designed, cambered (to provide lift) junk rig will have the advantage over about 180* from reach through run to the other reach. For more on the cambered junk rig, by a primary developer of the concept, see here. This makes the junk rig popular among some cruisers, since few cruisers really want to spend a lot of time beating into the wind. On the other hand racers, especially round-the-buoys racers, have no use for it. 

The real glory of the junk is in single-handing. One never goes up on the foredeck (except to anchor). There's no sail up there to change. One reefs from the cockpit in five seconds or less with one hand. To tack one just puts the helm over... no jib, no jib sheets. Short tacks are a piece of cake.

I doubt strongly that there is another junk rig aficionado on SailNet. Surely I would have heard from him or her by now.  Two places where one can find more information, and encounter other people who approve of the rig and the free standing mast commonly used with it, are the Junk Rig Association, linked in my sig, and the Yahoo Junkrig Group.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Paolo

Project Amazon had many unique features including a keel that canted 30 degrees to either side. The keel was modified before the race and this led to a fuel leak from the tanks integral to the keel. This is why she never finished the race - money was an issue as well and the plans were modified by the builder without Eric Sponberg's permission.

But she was fast - From Eric Sponberg's site:


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

Junkrig

Paul Howard and Fiona McCall, with 2 kids, completed a circumnavigation on 28 foot steel-hulled junk.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

junkrig said:


> (beginning with some trepidation...)
> 
> Aside from the Freedoms, the *other common free standing mast rig is the Junk Rig.* ...


What do you mean by that. I see stays on these masts and in all I have seen:





































Regards

Paulo


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Comparing a conventional sloop to a boat with a freestanding rig there is more cost in the mast - but no rigging to pay for or maintain and a much smaller sail inventory as well. 

There are always few willing to build a boat very different from the norm. But there have been many over the years, some quite successful such as Rodger Martin's "Grey Wolf" shown below. Tanton has also designed many boats with free standing rigs - his most popular is the Tanton 43 - 2nd pic below.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

junkrig

You are not the only fan of the junk rig I don't think - I have been a fan of Jester - probably the most famous junk rigged boat of modern times, first with Blondie Hasler and then Michael Richey through the years. While not the fastest certainly easy to sail long distances without having to even go outside. 
Jester

The first pic is Jester and the second is a similar boat named "China Blue"


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

And Annie Hill's "Badger" is well proven as well.


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## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

Awesome thread! Long live the Junkrig!


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## CrazyRu (May 10, 2007)

One of the most interesting modern sailboats with freestanding rig is "doch vetra" or "Daughter of wind", designed and built by Victor Yazikov, Russian entry in around alone.
http://www.sailinganarchy.com/fringe/2006/viktor_yazykov.htm
Since article in SA, Victor finished the boat and cruise it in Atlantic. The boat is designed to selfsteer without any electronics or windwanes. 
You can see a few pics in this article
http://oceanschool.ru/2011/08/yahta-doch-vetra-viktora-yazyikova/


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

Another advantage of an unstayed mast that is not mentioned often is its response to gusts. The top of the mast bends in response to the extra wind which tends to absorb the shocks and give a smoother ride.

A disadvantage, is that you have to be extra careful about drilling and cutting too many holes in the mast walls since the stresses tend to find any weak points (eg holes that are too close together. Hinterhoeller Yachts replaced (as a warranty item) the bottom sections of many of the early Nonsuchs since they had a few fatigue failures. The replacement used a clamp system to attach things to the mast rather than through bolts - seemed to work fine.


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## junkrig (Jun 3, 2011)

PCP said:


> What do you mean by that. I see stays on these masts and in all I have seen:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yup. If you follow that link to the cambered sail page in my previous post Arne explains that evolution (devolution?) It has to do with cost and depletion of resources, i.e. trees big enough to make a free standing mast for an ocean going freighter.. Tom Colvin designs his with standing rigging too, based an the same reasoning you espouse here. There is no universal agreement.
That said, the vast majority of currently cruising conversions are free standing.

You will notice that none of those junks have spreaders. The standing rigging was an afterthought to the design.

Jeff


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

You mean Tom Colvin?

Here is his Gazelle design - I have seen several locally.


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## junkrig (Jun 3, 2011)

mitiempo said:


> You mean Tom Colvin?
> 
> Here is his Gazelle design - I have seen several locally.


Yeah. My stupid Android phone likes to correct words for me and I missed that one. I fixed my post before I saw yours


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## Arpegecap (Sep 19, 2011)

Finn, Laser, Freedom,Nonsuch, windsurfers, unstayed masts are not all that bad.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

mitiempo said:


> You mean Tom Colvin?
> 
> Here is his Gazelle design - I have seen several locally.


That one (Gazelle) has not free standing masts:










American Sailing Tours

Junkrig, when I have said that I had never saw a Junk with free standing mast I meant to say a traditional Junk.

What I wanted to say was that a free standing mast is not a traditional characteristic of the Junk rig.

Of course you can have a free standing mast on a Junk rig as in many others rigs.

regards

Paulo


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Arpegecap said:


> Finn, Laser, Freedom,Nonsuch, windsurfers, unstayed masts are not all that bad.


I don't think they are bad but in what concerns me I would not have a boat even without a backstay.

I now that even some fast performance sailboats, like the Pogo 12.50 don't have them. However the racing Pogo 40 (that is very close) have it. I interpret that as for a not so radical utilization the boat can pass without a back-stay but if pushed hard, the back-stay is a necessity.

Then, if it is safer with backstay why I would pass without one?

Regarding free masts I don't see nothing wrong, but if they were better and safer they would be used in racing boats, and I do not mean dinghy's, and they are not. Particularly in solo racing boats were the easiness of maneuver is indispensable. Not one single free mast, to my knowledge, races on the Mini protos, class 40 or Open 60.

Can so many be wrong about what is the better, more efficient and safer way to rig a boat? I don't think so.

Regards

Paulo


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## junkrig (Jun 3, 2011)

PCP said:


> That one (Gazelle) has not free standing masts:


I mentioned above that Colvin's designs were not free standing.



> Junkrig, when I have said that I had never saw a Junk with free standing mast I meant to say a traditional Junk.
> 
> What I wanted to say was that a free standing mast is not a traditional characteristic of the Junk rig.
> 
> ...


We do not agree on this and I suspect that we are not going to. That is all right with me and I hope it's all right with you too.

It's one of those debates which is not subject to solving with current evidence. Given the approximately 20 centuries of "traditional" junk rig use and evolution, 20th century photos don't do it. Given my last decade of study I have formed my opinion, and that's exactly what it is... my opinion. You certainly don't have to agree with it, we can still have a nice conversation here.


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## junkrig (Jun 3, 2011)

mitiempo said:


> And Annie Hill's "Badger" is well proven as well.


Thank you, Brian. Annie is a friend of mine and the person who originally set me on the trail to the junk rig.


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## junkrig (Jun 3, 2011)

mitiempo said:


> junkrig
> 
> You are not the only fan of the junk rig I don't think - I have been a fan of Jester - probably the most famous junk rigged boat of modern times, first with Blondie Hasler and then Michael Richey through the years. While not the fastest certainly easy to sail long distances without having to even go outside.
> Jester
> ...


You are probably aware that Blondie was one of the two who originally brought the junk rig to the west. He built Jester to compete in the first OSTAR, which he more-or-less invented. He was also the man who developed wind vane self steering for yachts. A clever man in every way.
He and Jock McCleod wrote Practical Junk Rig, which, although pre-camber, is still the Bible of junk riggers today.


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## junkrig (Jun 3, 2011)

PCP said:


> I don't think they are bad but in what concerns me I would not have a boat even without a backstay.
> 
> I now that even some fast performance sailboats, like the Pogo 12.50 don't have them. However the racing Pogo 40 (that is very close) have it. I interpret that as for a not so radical utilization the boat can pass without a back-stay but if pushed hard, the back-stay is a necessity.
> 
> ...


Can so many be wrong? Hmmm... do we all use our boats the same? Are so many deciding what would be the best for me? Somewhere down that road is 21st century America: One kind of milk cow. Period. One kind of beef cow. Period. One kind of hog. Period. One strain of corn, period. A few years ago we almost lost the entire national corn crop to a blight. Soon enough, one kind of store, Walmart. Excuse me if I don't want to play.

As you may recall, I began my initial post on this thread thusly:



> (beginning with some trepidation...)
> 
> Aside from the Freedoms, the other common free standing mast rig is the Junk Rig. First let me say that most people who sail a bermudan (pointy triangle) rig have a gut revulsion for the junk rig so I know what I'm getting myself into here.


So I got myself in. I knew what I was doing. Now I'll be getting myself out. See ya down the road.

But don't get me wrong. It's been fun.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

junkrig said:


> ...
> 
> We do not agree on this and I suspect that we are not going to. That is all right with me and I hope it's all right with you too.
> 
> It's one of those debates which is not subject to solving with current evidence. Given the approximately 20 centuries of "traditional" junk rig use and evolution, 20th century photos don't do it. Given my last decade of study I have formed my opinion, and that's exactly what it is... my opinion. You certainly don't have to agree with it, we can still have a nice conversation here.


No, not any problem but since you have said you have studied the subject I went for a better look and I found out you are right.

I would say that older Junks, I would say to the arrival of Portuguese boats to China, In the middle of XVI century, did not have stays, or had movable stays:





































After that gradually the advantages of a stayed mast as the ones they saw in the Portuguese boats and after in Dutch and British boats become evident and on the XVIII and XIX century almost all Junks adopted stayed masts except the very small ones:




































































































It's better like that?

Regards

Paulo


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## junkrig (Jun 3, 2011)

Pretty pictures. Lots of models, presumably fairly new. Some paintings. Of the newer looking boats, many if not most are diesel driven tour boats with fake rigs on them, of which there are many operating in China and especially Hong Kong today.
Three of your pics are of Duk Ling. One is a stern view in which you can clearly see the prop wash.
Working junks faded from Hong Kong and China's rivers by the mid-1970's. Those last working junks were at the very end of long service lives, some of them nearly 100 years old. They weren't all painted up and shiny.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Yes I agree, but the museum miniatures, all have stays, and I believe they are accurate. After all I bet they new their own naval history and their boats better than you or me

For what I can tell for very old pictures (hard to see) they used also movable stays, using them only on the side from where the wind came and putting them on the other side when needed.

Regards

Paulo


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## junkrig (Jun 3, 2011)

PCP said:


> Yes I agree, but the museum miniatures, all have stays, and I believe they are accurate. After all I bet they new their own naval history and their boats better than you or me
> 
> For what I can tell for very old pictures (hard to see) they used also movable stays, using them only on the side from where the wind came and putting them on the other side when needed.
> 
> ...


Junks are sheeted to every batten, with the usual exception of the top two battens. Many of the old ocean going freighters had a set of sheets on each side of the sail. The "movable stays" you are seeing are sheets.

It kind of appears that we have hijacked this thread, from the OP'S question to a debate over Asian nautical history. Oops.

Regarding pluses or minuses to unstayed masts, I can only say that most of my personal sailing friends sail modern junks with unstayed masts and love them. It is nearly unheard of for anyone to return to a Bermudan, stayed mast rig. FWIW.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

junkrig said:


> Junks are sheeted to every batten, with the usual exception of the top two battens. Many of the old ocean going freighters had a set of sheets on each side of the sail. The "movable stays" you are seeing are sheets.
> 
> It kind of appears that we have hijacked this thread, from the OP'S question to a debate over Asian nautical history. Oops.
> 
> Regarding pluses or minuses to unstayed masts, I can only say that most of my personal sailing friends sail modern junks with unstayed masts and love them. It is nearly unheard of for anyone to return to a Bermudan, stayed mast rig. FWIW.


Sorry CB about this small slide on the theme even if after all we are talking about stayed masts versus unstayed mast. Anyway this will be my last post about Junks.

Sorry Junkrig but I am not completely unfamiliar with Junk rigs and what I am talking about are not stays. These pictures and images are all taken more than 60 years ago, some 80 or more years ago (the miniature is even more old displaying a very curious rig) and they show mostly boats built in the XIX century, except the miniature that shows a really old boat. All of them are working boats, traditional boats.
































































As you can see the shrouds I was talking about are not sheets.

I know that many modern small recreational sailboats sail successively with an unstaied Junk rig, as many other sailboats with different rigs do, but that was not my point.

Regards

Paulo


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## junkrig (Jun 3, 2011)

PCP said:


> Sorry CB about this small slide on the theme even if after all we are talking about stayed masts versus unstayed mast. Anyway this will be my last post about Junks.
> 
> Sorry Junkrig but I am not completely unfamiliar with Junk rigs and what I am talking about are not stays. These pictures and images are all taken more than 60 years ago, some 80 or more years ago (the miniature is even more old displaying a very curious rig) and they show mostly boats built in the XIX century, except the miniature that shows a really old boat. All of them are working boats, traditional boats.
> 
> ...


Paulo,
With two exceptions the junk sailors I know are world cruisers, and one of those exceptions is me. The other is Annie Hill who, now single and in her fifties, has settled in NZ and cruises the coasts in her 25 foot Fantail, and of course she and Pete cruised Badger over 25,000 miles, mostly in high latitudes, in the Atlantic.
Badger, by the way, still cruises the world's oceans with her new owners.
The others are in Hong Kong, Australia, New Zealand, Tasmania, the UK, both coasts of the US, and scattered about the open oceans.
So if we assume that world cruisers are "small recreational sailboats and dinghies,"
doesn't that cover virtually every boat represented on Sailnet?


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

junkrig said:


> Paulo,
> With two exceptions the junk sailors I know are world cruisers, and one of those exceptions is me. The other is Annie Hill who, now single and in her fifties, has settled in NZ and cruises the coasts in her 25 foot Fantail, and of course she and Pete cruised Badger over 25,000 miles, mostly in high latitudes, in the Atlantic.
> Badger, by the way, still cruises the world's oceans with her new owners.
> The others are in Hong Kong, Australia, New Zealand, Tasmania, the UK, both coasts of the US, and scattered about the open oceans.
> ...


No, perhaps I have expressed myself wrongly. Sorry about that, I have not any intention of diminish the small offshore sailing Junks. They have a good offshore record

By small I did not want to say that they were not offshore sailboats, but just small sailboats. Most Junks that I know off with free mast have less than 36ft (I call that small for an offshore cruiser) and I don't know any with 50ft. I would call big sailboats anything bigger than 60ft.

Regards

Paulo


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## WDS123 (Apr 2, 2011)

My wild a** guess is 10 years from now we will all be sailing using wing sails.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

No, sailors are a conservative group, so it wouldn't happen that fast. And racing rules are the main reason we are using inefficient triangular sails when any designer knows they can be improved upon.


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## junkrig (Jun 3, 2011)

WDSchock said:


> My wild a** guess is 10 years from now we will all be sailing using wing sails.


David Tyler, widely known around the JRA as The Oracle, sails his Tystie, a wing sail schooner with a rig of his own design, currently leaving Tasmania for New Zealand and then on across the South Pacific IIRC. He believes firmly in the wing sail but considers the Hasler Junk with camber to be next best and helps us all with ours.
That said, I think Mitiempo is right. Witness the strong negative reaction here to anyone advocating any different idea.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

mitiempo said:


> No, sailors are a conservative group, so it wouldn't happen that fast. And racing rules are the main reason we are using *inefficient triangular sails when any designer knows they can be improved upon*.


Mitiempo if that was true, minis, class40 and Open60 as other semi or open class boats would be using other kind of sails and rigs. Nothing prevent them to use other rigs.

Regards

Paulo


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Paulo

I wouldn't describe these as "inefficient triangular sails". But the average rig on a Catalina, Beneteau, or whatever leaves a bit to be desired. And the current trend to in mast furling mains has lost, not gained efficiency.


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## legarots (Jun 9, 2009)

I was on a Freedom 35 with a carbon fiber mast and no shrouds. I missed not having something to hold on to, especially when climbing on board.


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## junkrig (Jun 3, 2011)

PCP said:


> Mitiempo if that was true, minis, class40 and Open60 as other semi or open class boats would be using other kind of sails and rigs. Nothing prevent them to use other rigs.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


I rest my case.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Different rigs are chosen for different reasons in a cruiser when there is a choice. The junk rig for the ultimate ease of handling and not having to have a large sail inventory being 2 main reasons - probably the most efficient rig for the dollar and effort required. Some are chosen for ultimate speed like the pics above. And some are chosen strictly for their looks - the schooner comes to mind. 

It would be pretty boring if all rigs were the same.


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## junkrig (Jun 3, 2011)

Paulo, even though I know I'm wasting my time here...
Racing does not define the only appropriate boat designs. If it did nobody would ever buy another Nor'sea, with the long keel, deep rocker, and cutaway forefoot. In spite of that, Nor'sea is one of few manufacturers who was building yachts in the 1970's and is still in business today. Racing is fine. Many people love it. Many others simply don't care.


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## junkrig (Jun 3, 2011)

mitiempo said:


> Different rigs are chosen for different reasons in a cruiser when there is a choice. The junk rig for the ultimate ease of handling and not having to have a large sail inventory being 2 main reasons - probably the most efficient rig for the dollar and effort required. Some are chosen for ultimate speed like the pics above. And some are chosen strictly for their looks - the schooner comes to mind.
> 
> It would be pretty boring if all rigs were the same.


+1
Another advantage, as users see it, is that most junk rig sailors make their own sails. Huge savings.

And it is simply safer.


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## Deric (Feb 3, 2008)

I enjoy sailing my boat. I switched from a sloop to cat ketch rig with free standing masts.

I love the simplicity of maintenance, safety, and piloting with only two sheets. 

It's been called the lazy man's boat. Once I get to only one sheet will I at that time agree with the previous sentence. Heh


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## kaiwenhe (Jan 14, 2018)

no , it is a traditional thing on junk rig if you could read Chinese .


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## kaiwenhe (Jan 14, 2018)

no ,they are not . many of them are fixed up .


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

There was a guy with a 37-foot sailboat tied up the seawall behind me in Marathon Key 5 years ago. He had a pair of carbon fiber, free standing masts. Those masts cost him $10,000 each and they were about the same diameter as the aluminum mast on my Morgan 33. They were much lighter in weight than aluminum, far stronger, and he sailed to the Bahamas on that boat 5 years in a row without a single problem. Said the boat sailed like a dream and did not heel nearly as much as it did when it was outfitted with aluminum masts.

Good luck,

Gary


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Anybody know anything about the Wyliecats?


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## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

Deric said:


> I enjoy sailing my boat. I switched from a sloop to cat ketch rig with free standing masts.
> 
> I love the simplicity of maintenance, safety, and piloting with only two sheets.
> 
> It's been called the lazy man's boat. Once I get to only one sheet will I at that time agree with the previous sentence. Heh


It was for good reason the Harbor Pilots chose the Cat Ketch to get out to guide sailing ships into safe harbor. Shorter safer un-stayed masts and non-eventful good mannered jibes being among them. Some pretty grueling ocean races held in rough weather are routinely still being won by Cat Ketches.

They made some pretty good sized and fast Blue Water Cat Ketches:


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

SeaStar58 said:


> It was for good reason the Harbor Pilots chose the Cat Ketch to get out to guide sailing ships into safe harbor. Shorter safer un-stayed masts and non-eventful good mannered jibes being among them. Some pretty grueling ocean races held in rough weather are routinely still being won by Cat Ketches.
> 
> They made some pretty good sized and fast Blue Water Cat Ketches:


Other than Egret (which was actually intended more as a life boat), I don't recall hearing of cat ketch rig being used on pilot boats. Most sailing pilot boats were schooners and cutters. Do you know where cat ketches were actually used for pilot boats?

I also have not heard of a cat ketch winning an ocean race in maybe 30-40 years and the two boats that come to mind were a bit of 'funny car' being stripped out down below, having a turbo rig, flying chutes and staysails, and one not having an engine when she won. Could you comment on where a cat ketch routinely won a "grueling ocean races held in rough weather".

Jeff


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## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

Been years (perhaps 50 or so) since I read an old book I checked out of the public library or perhaps the school library about the Harbor Pilots in New England sailing out to meet Whalers and Cargo ships from Colonial American Times to somewhere about the early 20th Century in their Cat Ketches and they had included some copies of Tin Type Photographs of them being used in that service so they could have been from the late 1850's to early 1900's. Since they had pictures of Harbor Pilots in the Cat Ketches I did not question it as the real point of interest to me at the time was that the men would sail out in light vessels like that to board sailing ships and pilot them into safe harbors in some pretty foul weather. It was for an Early American History Extra Credit Assignment which I did not save as it was just trivia to me.

Everglades Challenge and Florida Coastal Challenge have been won a number of times in the past decade by B&B Cat Ketches from 18 to 22 feet in length. Perhaps a better choice of words would be Salt Water Races however they are a part offshore, nearshore and inter-coastal race where the chance of death is fairly high and pushes the contestants along with their boats to the limit. It isn't uncommon for 1/3 of those that leave the starting line to not make the finish so it is a very extremely grueling race.


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## Bleemus (Oct 13, 2015)

Does anybody remember the name of that wacky cat ketch that, I think, raced the Bermuda race with the radio tower mast in the early 80s? Wasn't it MIT scientists behind it? The name escapes me.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

You might be thinking of Cascade that was designed by MIT professorJerry Milgram in the 1970'sas a rule beater.

Jeff


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

You do occasionally see one offs with rotating,unstayed wing masts that seem to sail quite well. Going from Bart’s back to st Martin we were overtaken by a 50 something with that rig. Both masts were of nearly equal height best I could see with back one (main) perhaps a bit taller. Radar/antennae were on a separate mast at the stern. Two sails. Simple except need to go forward to reef. Aesethically appealing unlike a junk rig to many eyes.


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## Bleemus (Oct 13, 2015)

Jeff_H said:


> You might be thinking of Cascade that was designed by MIT professorJerry Milgram in the 1970'sas a rule beater.
> 
> Jeff


Thanks Jeff. That was it!


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## flyrod (Oct 29, 2011)

As I recall a Nonsuch 33 won it's class in the Marion Bermuda race at least once. I don't recall the year,probably early 2000's.


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