# Propane or Alcohol Stove?



## bsfree (Oct 25, 2001)

I am soon to buy a new stove for the boat. I know the pro's and con's for propane, but would like to hear anyone's comments on the Origo 3000 or 6000 alcohol fueled stove, stove/oven. As far as I know the only downside seems to be they don't burn quite as hot as propane. But I would like to hear of any "real world" experiences of the units. Oh, and the unit would be gimbaled as I have a sailboat.
Thanks


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

I could tell you a story about how my friend's alcohol stove leaked into the bilge of his Pearson 33, then caught on fire when he attempted to light the burner . . . but I won't.

We use propane for our oven/stove and hot water heater and would not change to anything else.


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## captnnero (Jul 19, 2006)

*Alcohol can be exciting*

We had an alcohol stove for a few years. We were advised to take the burner into the cockpit to fuel it before lighting it back in the galley. It was sometimes tricky to tell if it was actually lit. Then I've heard of interesting experiences with the pressurized alcohol stoves.

A few years ago I took a captain's course in the middle of the winter. The instructor had a great story about lighting an alcohol stove and catching himself on fire. He had to jump overboard and immerse more than once to douse all of the flames.

I suppose there are horror stories for CNG (our boat) and propane, but I haven't heard any. I've also seen small butane stoves. It has been said that the difference between propane and CNG is that propane blows up the bilge and CNG blows up the cabin top. Though CNG is much harder to get even in the US, I like the idea that it can at least in theory leak out of the top of the boat instead of lurking in the bilge.

In any case, I don't miss the alcohol stove on our first boat.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I have a pressurized alcohol stove in my boat that is going in the dumpster, unless someone would like it for free!

I love CNG, its really a shame that Propane won out in that battle. But I will replace my alcohol stove with Propane.


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## bsfree (Oct 25, 2001)

Thanks, my last stove was pressurized alcohol and I had the thing flare up once or twice, scary. The point of the Origo is that it's not pressurized and touted as the safest way to cook on a boat, I just wondered if anyone out there has experience of them. Else I'll probably go with propane, just not in love with having to build containers for pressurized "bombs" or the option of having them hang of a stantion.


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## dave.verry (Apr 5, 2006)

Surfesq, 

What brand of stove? I may want it for the parts!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I will look tonight and snap a shot of it along with the tank.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I have used an Origo for the past 16 years. I love these stoves, simple, reliable, cheap to run. The stove tops don't appear to heat things any slower than your average marine propane stove. I have not used the oven much and so won't comment. There is a good thread on www.Cruisersforum.com on Origo's. There is also a guy on that same board looking to buy a used pressure alcohol stove.

There are tricks to the Origo like any other stove. I bought one of those small liquid stove fuel bottles with a pour spout at a camping supply place and that greatly simplifies the filling process and makes it bullet proof reliable. Also some burners come with to small an furling indent in the screen. I carefully push the screen down so that the indent is about a 1/4" deep and the size of a quarter and that also simplifies fueling. I use hardware store alcohol which is cheap and does not soot which is not true of the high price stuff that Origo recommends.

For me this is a no brainer. In my life the only sailboats that I personally have known of that have blown up had diesel engines and propane stoves. I can never understand how there are people who refuse to have gasoline engines because of the danger but will calmly live with propane. I have spent too many sleepless night nervously tracking down for propane leaks.

Respectfully,
Jeff


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Having owned both...there is no contest between propane and alcohol for cooking. Propane is way better. As for risks...I suppose propane poses the greatest risk but this can be managed with good design for tank storage and "sniffer". When you are cooking every day...you appreciate the ease of propane.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Propane stoves are generally much better at cooking, and far safer, provided you have a propane fume sniffer on the boat, and take the proper precautions. 

Origo stoves, while pretty nice, don't seem to generate as much heat as propane stoves do, and the fuel is a bit more expensive. Alcohol fires are really dangerous since the alcohol can float on top of water and still be burning, and the flames are nearly invisible.


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## captnnero (Jul 19, 2006)

*There it isn't*



sailingdog said:


> ... Alcohol fires are really dangerous since the alcohol can float on top of water and still be burning, and the flames are nearly invisible.


That would explain my instructor's multiple dunking to douse his flames. He also reported seeing flames under water. Maybe that was the surface on fire.

We've probably all seen a formula race car driver after a crash hopping and rolling around as if on fire but without visible flames.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Yup... they're hopping and rolling, because even if they can't see the fire...they can feel the heat...


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

A close friend and I were anchored in our separate boats off Fort Adams 2 seasons ago, to watch the Newport Folk Festival. My wife and our two 20-something kids were on True Blue, close by his 25 y/o Pearson 33, while he and his party guests got pretty wasted during the course of the afternoon.

Close to 5:00 pm, he decided to cook some food, pumped up his pressurized tank, but was distracted by the encore performance and went up into the cockpit. Apparently, his valve was open before he pressurized the tank - overflowing the burner cup and sending alcohol fuel down into his bilge.

No one knows for sure how much time passed before he attempted to pre-heat the burner. But when he did, the flame ignited the burner and quickly spread down into his bilge. Flames began to melt the fiberglass interior hull and ignited the wood sole, cushion fabric, cabinets and bulkheads. As the hundreds of anchored boat people watched, black smoke & flames were blazing from the ports & companionway, while most of the guests jumped off the boat. The captain and a friend however, stayed onboard and eventually put the flames out with water & flour - only after pulling up every floor board.

The boat was nearly totaled, took 2 years to restore, and is still unfinished. The owner since then, installed a propane system to current ABYC safety standards. Modern alcohol stoves may be safer today, but onboard alcohol as a cooking fuel is still terrifying to me. I have yet to hear about a propane fire in this area, but plenty of alcohol fires occur each year - including one we had on a former boat.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Propane generally doesn't result in fires...but does result in explosions. There was a thread previously which talked about CNG, which is mostly Methane, Propane and Butane, and Butane is probably the least safe of the gases used in cooking systems... CNG is the hardest to get, and requires a different burner from propane and butane, which can generally be interchanged fairly safely.


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## captnnero (Jul 19, 2006)

*question: when does a boat sound like a dog ?*

answer: when you fill the bilge with alcohol and light the stove -- woof !

Sorry I couldn't resist.

TrueBlue, at least it sounds like nobody was hurt in the P33 alcohol fire story and I certainly hope that is the case.



TrueBlue said:


> ...I have yet to hear about a propane fire in this area, but plenty of alcohol fires occur each year - including one we had on a former boat.


In the propane case it's probably more of an explosion followed by some fire. I use CNG for the galley, but the tank is in the starboard locker which I'm not happy about. I'm planning on moving it to a new much smaller volatiles locker on the port side which is top and bottom vented and glassed out of the interior boat spaces. I carry two of the small coleman propane cylinders in the cockpit for the rail grill. I know that they often can leak after being used but at least the propane can pass down thru the cockpit drains. I'm making a pvc tube to store them on the rail away from some foot level inner cockpit portlights.

Then I'll never forget the story from "Total Loss" (great book !) in the fire section about a British captain with a gasoline inboard engine who said that he pressed the starter button one morning while his wife was making tea and the boat blew up around them. The next thing he remembered is his wife was yelling and hopping around on her uninjured leg, although he couldn't hear her right away. She had only minor injuries and they made it ashore in a smoldering dinghy in time to see the rest of the vessel destroyed (prerequisite for inclusion in "Total Loss").


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

BoatUS insurance just put out a nice book that talks about the different ways boats are lost. A remarkably high percentage sink at the dock.


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## Gene T (May 23, 2006)

What confounds me is how simple and hot the Origo is and how difficult and cold the pressurized alcohol. Pressurized alcohol is plain stupid. I would even go so far to say they aren't even a heat source, at least it feels that way when trying to boil water. The only problem I have had with the Origo stoves is the quality of fuel. Poor quality fuel causes my eyes to burn a little and require opening up the cabin a bit for some air flow. I would rather keep it closed up on a cool morning. Most people have no experience with non-pressurized stoves like the Origo so tend to be negative about them just because they use alcohol. No propane tanks to mess with and inherently safer than pressurized alcohol or propane.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I have used an Origo non-pressurized stove, but prefer the ease and simplicity of propane stoves. For people not used to an Origo alcohol stove, getting the hang of it can be a problem. Propane is far simpler to adjust to, as many have some experience with either natural gas in the home or propane equipment from camping or a backyard barbeque grill. 

My main objection to alcohol stoves, including the Origos, is the cost of the fuel and the danger of the fuel source. 

It is pretty easy to spill alcohol and not notice it—especially on a moving sailboat, where the angle of heel and boat's motion can easily cause the spill...and the flames are almost invisible, so you might have a small alcohol fire burning in an out of the way place, like having the fuel floating on water, which happens quite frequently, and not notice it immediately.


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## bsfree (Oct 25, 2001)

Thank you all for your input. I'm still undecided which way to go, but really appreciate Jeff's comments as they mirror my thoughts/fears on safety. I realize any system is only as safe as the attention given to it, but am attracted to the minimal components of using alcohol. I liveaboard and cooking is important to me. Thanks again everyone.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Who ever it was that said that Alcohol can float on the water clearly does not know a thing about alcohol. Alcohol readily mixes with water and adding water immediately extinguishes it. Geez, I hate seeing misinformation on alcohol. 

The alcohol used in stoves is completely different than the methyl alcohol used in race cars and beyond that most race cars that use alcohol use a mixture of methyl and gasoline which is what makes them so volitile and the flames next to invisble. 

The story about the burning boat really surprises me. It would take a lot of alcohol to that much damage. More than would normally be present in a normal pressurized stove tank. Any mixture of water and alcohol, except for something approaching straight alcohol will not ignite. (It is my understanding that as little as 12% water content makes alcohol next to impossible to ignite.) so the simple expedient of throwing a couple glasses of water in the bilge should have put the fire out, that is unless other combustible materials were present. A hand pumped flower mister makes a very effective alcohol fire extinguisher. Most of the P-33's originally had gasoline engines so your friend is a really lucky man to still be here.

Speaking of things that actually do go boom in the night, how many of you carry small quantities of mineral spirits or other paint thinners in their cabin's. Just a thought.

Respectfully,
Jeff


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

Jeff_H said:


> . . . "The story about the burning boat really surprises me. It would take a lot of alcohol to that much damage. More than would normally be present in a normal pressurized stove tank." . . ."so the simple expedient of throwing a couple glasses of water in the bilge should have put the fire out, that is unless other combustible materials were present. Most of the P-33's originally had gasoline engines so he is a really lucky man to still be here."


Jeff, 
His P33 had a new Yanmar diesel and aside from some 1st & 2nd degree burns, he survived to tell the story - many times I might add, since he's my slipmate. I can't answer for Sdog's floating alcohol theory, but as was described in my story, several combustables were involved in the fire as well as ample time for the alcohol to become absorbed in the galley cabinetry before settling in the bilge. I don't know the size of the tank, but I would suspect it held at least a qt, enough to cause significant damage to a boat's cabins.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Just for the record, I was not doubting the veracity of your story. I was just surprised by the extent of the damage. Back in the pressure alcohol days, I had a couple alcohol fires and they were easily extinguished so was more than a little surprised to hear the extent of the damage. Most of the older pressure alcohol stoves held much less than a quart, with my old Homestrand holding just about a pint. Exept for the really old ones, by the 1970's alcohol stoves had a catch pan that held nearly as much as the tank. Because alcohol evaporates so quickly even soaking into the fabrics and down into the bilge like that is a little surprising. I don't doubt the story at all, but is quite different than my experiences. Given the gents state of sobriety, I almost wonder whether he didn't leave the alcohol container open and spill it's contents as well. 

Jeff


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

He and his crew were inebriated, to say the least. They set a very bad example that day and I am sure he has constrant remorse over the event. What surprises me the most is he regularly crews on Courageous, US28, which just won the 12 meter regatta last month. I always respected his judgement until that bout with stupidity.

I am sure modern alcohol stoves are very safe, giving proper respect and maintenance by the users - typical for all flamable fuels, liquid or gaseous.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Jeff_H said:


> Who ever it was that said that Alcohol can float on the water clearly does not know a thing about alcohol. Alcohol readily mixes with water and adding water immediately extinguishes it. Geez, I hate seeing misinformation on alcohol.


Float was the wrong word to use. The issue was brought up in a case study in BoatUS's book Seaworthy, where an owner had tried to put out an alcohol stove by pouring water on the flames, and the water only diluted the alcohol, but not sufficiently to put it out.

Adding water does not immediately extinguish alcohol fires, if not enough water is used. The water then carried the still burning alcohol down and behind the stove and the hull caught on fire from the burning alcohol. The story is on page 89 of the book. Alcohol will generally still burn until it is below 40% or so by volume. Most alcohols, including ethanol burn with little color to the flames.

Denatured alcohol, which is probably what you use, is mostly ethanol with a bit of methanol mixed into it. The MSDS clearly states the following for extinguishing alcohol fires.

Extinguishing Media: Use water spray, CO2, alcohol-type or universal-type foams, or 
dry chemical. Water may be ineffective. 

Please note that it clearly states that *WATER MAY BE INEFFECTIVE.

*That said...non-pressurized stoves, like the Origo, the OP is asking about, are far safer than the older pressurized stoves. However, alcohol does present its share of dangers, as do any flammable liquids on a boat. I do have a few solvents on-board, but they are stored in a water-tight/air-tight container and I don't open the container unless I've brought it up to the cockpit or on deck as a general rule.

One point about the dangers of alcohol stoves had more to do with their unfamilar practices, rather than the dangers of the fuel itself. _Lighting a propane or butane stove is something that is probably fairly familiar for most sailors, especially if they have a gas stove or barbeque grill at home._ *Lighting an alcohol stove is not. 
*


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Alcohol*

I Got A Good Deal On My Boat Because Of Alcohol. The Previous Owners "friend" Was Using A Single Burner Origo And Caught Herself And The Boat Interior On Fire. Witnesses Said She Saw The Headliner On Fire And Didn't Realize That She Was Also On Fire. She Jumped Overboard And Bystanders Pulled Her Out And Extinguished The Fire. The Story Is That There Was More Alcohol In Her Than In The Stove. I Have Converted To Propane With Sniffers And Properly Vented Tanks, But Am Still Very, Very Careful. Stoves And Firearms Don't Mix Well Together.


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## captnnero (Jul 19, 2006)

*volatile inventory*



Jeff_H said:


> ...Speaking of things that actually do go boom in the night, how many of you carry small quantities of mineral spirits or other paint thinners in their cabin's. Just a thought.
> 
> Respectfully,
> Jeff


We banished such things from the cabin from the beginning, except for the lamp oil in the hanging Weems & Plath brass lantern that we lifted from our first boat several years ago. To refill the oil is brought from home and then returned.

When I was growing up we had a nasty basement fire when lawn mower parts were being cleaned with gasoline in a coffee can on the workbench. When the hot water was turned on upstairs the fumes flashed back from the instant hot water gas furnace ten feet away and pretty soon half of the basement was on fire. Even the hamsters and guinea pigs had to be evacuated, but the house was saved. I lost a dozen model rocket parachutes hanging 30 feet away from the flames. That left quite an impression on me with respect to volatiles.

Maybe the proof of the Tequilla in the cabin liquor cabinet is high enough to be flamable but that needs to be aboard to maintain crew morale


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## wlcoxe (Jan 26, 2001)

*Alcohol unsafe? Maybe not...*

On our ODay 28 we used a pressurized alcohol stove with no ill effects. The gentleman who surveyed the boat gave me some extremely good instructions on how to, and how not to, prime the burners, but the one I liked best I haven't had an opportunity to try. That consists of keeping some alcohol in a squeeze bottle and preheating the buners that way. Controlability is excellent, and it minimizes the chance to over-flood the burners during the pre-heat process. As we used to say in the submarine construction business, "Nothing is sailor-proof". I also bought my alcohol from hardware stores with no problems, and used the air compressor on my battery eliminator to pump up the tank, because the hand pump was a physical pain.
Bill Coxe, O28 Very available)/O40, New London, CT


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*alcohol stove*

ok alcohol stoves are good just show your wifes, how to read the instructions and everything will be allwright, everybody knows there slow its alcohol remember school with the alcohol torch in lab slow boiling.
go by the intruction steps


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## Joesaila (May 19, 2007)

I too owned a boat with propane and was sure I wanted it because of all the 'alcohol is slow, flames hard to see' expressions I heard. I almost went with cng because it seemed so safe. One person on sailnet told me that she had used alcohol for many years and loved it. So when we launched our good old boat with a new Origo I figured I'd 'just give it a shot'. It works great. I heat up a pot of coffee in five minutes! It cooks super. [My grandchildren will vouch that our pasta dinner was terrific last week] I no longer panic at the thought of propane being 'all the way off' and don't have to run fuel lines with devices etc. Its really not difficult to see the flames either. Alcohol is simple. While all opinions are useful, if you give the alcohol a chance I am sure you will be impressed.


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## speciald (Mar 27, 2007)

The flame on an alcohol stove is invisible so burning yourself is more likely. The flame is no where near as hot. I remember as a child, my mother setting fire to the curtains with an alcohol stove on a small cabin cruiser - she did't know that the stove was lit.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

Compared to propane, a pot of water takes forever to boil with a non-pressurized Alcohol cooktop. Anyone who claims otherwise has never compared the two.


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## JomsViking (Apr 28, 2007)

Totally agree with TrueBlue - I just ripped out the Origo 3000 in the new (to me) boat and replaced it with a LPG stove. If the installation is meticulously done and tested, you're safer with LPG IMHO..
So if anybody want's the Origo (and are willing to pay all transport and other costs) pm me  
SpecialD, did your mother notice when the curtains caught fire?  One of my friends set his settees on fire because he spilled some kerosene - he didn't notice himself, but fortunately someone else did. Btw. we used wet towels to put it out - Could have used my pants though, but didn't think of it at the time


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## Joesaila (May 19, 2007)

TrueBlue said:


> Compared to propane, a pot of water takes forever to boil with a non-pressurized Alcohol cooktop. Anyone who claims otherwise has never compared the two.


I've owned both. The propane was faster but the alcohol still only takes 5 minutes to boil a pot of water. Whats the rush? Sailing is all about not rushing, for me anyways. And alcohol does so without the risk of bleeding into your bilge and blowing up. Again, I have no trouble seeing the flame. We all have different prefrences. [thankfully] Matches can burn you if you are not careful.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

When I say a POT of water Joe, I mean a 4-6 qt pot, enough for lobster or pasta - not a saucepan for making French Press coffee. 

With my experience, it takes 5 minutes for a gallon of water to boil using LPG - at _least_ 20-30 minutes with a "Pressurized" alcohol cooktop, what my last boat had. Alcohol stoves with a wick will take much longer.

Who wants to have a heating source steam up the galley for over an hour during a hot summer day? Remember to include cooking times too.


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## JomsViking (Apr 28, 2007)

I like to prepare real meals when on the hook, without rushing anything - the only thing that works there is LPG. So if you're only warming water now and then, alcohol is ok, but - to me - any serious cooking requires LPG or kerosene. Statistically (at least here in DK) LPG is the safest, maybe because people are aware of the dangers?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I'd have to side with TB... alcohol stoves are slow... the fuel is relatively expensive per btu and it is more dangerous than a properly installed LPG system IMHO.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Kerosene??? Diesel????*

through out this whole thread i have not seen one reference to kerosene or diesel? safer then either Alcohol, LPT or CNG, and as hot or hotter then any. cheap fuel, obtainable ANYWHERE.

does the smell of kerosene really put everybody off so? sheez.. i kind a like the smell .. must be Pavlovian knowing food is coming.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Both diesel and kerosene stoves generally need to be pre-heated. While they're somewhat safer in theory, a properly installed Propane setup is far simpler to use and just as safe.


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## RXBOT (Sep 7, 2007)

*propane is heavier than air*

If you have a leak with propane it will sink to the bilges and fill the lower level of your boat. If an ignition source occurs ( spark from bilge pump coming on ) your boat and anyone onboard will dissapear.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

It would probably be best to start a new thread, given how old this one is and its title, but... Our previous boat had a parrafin (kerosene) stove, a Taylor 030 cooker. Stainless and brass, with an enamelled cook top, it was beautiful, and with the heavy gauge metal it almost doubled as a cabin heater too.

However, for cooking, I would not trade our current propane stove. I do not miss the requirement to pre-heat the burner elements, nor the "aroma" that seemed to permeate the boat. That aroma can be very difficult to stomach for anyone with a sensitive nose (like one of my kids). 

Propane is just too clean and convenient to go back.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

RXBOT said:


> If you have a leak with propane it will sink to the bilges and fill the lower level of your boat. If an ignition source occurs ( spark from bilge pump coming on ) your boat and anyone onboard will dissapear.


So are the fumes from alcohol, which is used with diesel, kerosene and alcohol stoves... as it is used for preheating diesel and kerosene, and is the fuel for alcohol stoves. Alcohol flames are nearly invisible as well.

A properly designed propane system has numerous safety devices, including flame-sensitive burners which will cutoff the fuel if the flame goes out, a propane sniffer and a solenoid which will close off the propane supply if the sniffer detects propane, and so on. Most bilge pump switches, since they are designed for use on both gasoline and diesel powered boats, are ignition proof switches.

Yes, propane explosions can happen....stove-related alcohol fires are fairly common. Most fires and explosions are due to user error...and nothing can prevent stupidity. In the race between man and God, where man makes something idiot-proof, and God improves the idiot... God is winning... He doesn't have to replace the idiots...he just upgrades them.


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## RXBOT (Sep 7, 2007)

*Fumes*

When touring the bacardi disstilery in NewProvidence Bahamas outside the warehouses where the rum was aging, there was no smoking allowed. A certain amount of the alcohol evaporated through the wooden barrels. They called it the angels share.


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## flomaster (Mar 11, 2007)

I have a pressurized alcohol stove aboard. I like the system because it's simple. Not alot of parts there to fail, and none of them depend on any electricity to operate. My wife could really cook up a meal on that thing, too. I can't imagine that the wick-type would be any more complicated, although I wonder if they have a model with an oven in it. Denatured alcohol is pretty easy to get, too.

LPG is better to cook with, and it may be cheaper to buy. Also, alcohol is not as dry of a heat as compared with LPG. If I upgrade, I'll buy a diesel stove.


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

sailingdog said:


> So are the fumes from alcohol, which is used with diesel, kerosene and alcohol stoves... as it is used for preheating diesel and kerosene, and is the fuel for alcohol stoves. Alcohol flames are nearly invisible as well.


SD, alcohol is a liquid at room temperature and the design of marine-approved alcohol appliances include sufficient containment of spilled liquid to also contain any fumes from that liquid below the UEL (upper explosion limit) - also, alcohol is not usually piped around the boat, meaning that leaks do not normally find their way to bilges, hence numerous safety devices are not required.

Kerosene and diesel do not give off explosive fumes at room temperature, but they both leave oily soot stains which are difficult to clean.



sailingdog said:


> A properly designed propane system has numerous safety devices, including flame-sensitive burners which will cutoff the fuel if the flame goes out, a propane sniffer and a solenoid which will close off the propane supply if the sniffer detects propane, and so on. Most bilge pump switches, since they are designed for use on both gasoline and diesel powered boats, are ignition proof switches.


As a licensed hazardous area electrical inspector, I have yet to see an ignition-proof bilge pump switch. Most are Sealed (ie. water-tight), but are *not* specifically certified (and none are wired) to prevent a bang if the casing is accidentally cracked. 



sailingdog said:


> Yes, propane explosions can happen....stove-related alcohol fires are fairly common. Most fires and explosions are due to user error...and nothing can prevent stupidity. In the race between man and God, where man makes something idiot-proof, and God improves the idiot... God is winning... He doesn't have to replace the idiots...he just upgrades them.


Basically, alcohol stove = boat can catch fire; propane stove = boat can explode. Which one you chose will depend upon what you're comfortable with. 

Personally, I prefer the fire option, since at least that gives you a chance to use an extinguisher or abandon ship - but most people go with propane because it's easiest to use and take the (albeit low) risk...


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Hartley18 said:


> SD, alcohol is a liquid at room temperature and the design of marine-approved alcohol appliances include sufficient containment of spilled liquid to also contain any fumes from that liquid below the UEL (upper explosion limit) - also, alcohol is not usually piped around the boat, meaning that leaks do not normally find their way to bilges, hence numerous safety devices are not required.


The biggest problem with alcohol stoves, both pressurized and non-pressurized, is generally user error.  In the book Seaworthy, you can read all about the different horror stories for the different types of stoves.



> As a licensed hazardous area electrical inspector, I have yet to see an ignition-proof bilge pump switch. Most are Sealed (ie. water-tight), but are *not* specifically certified (and none are wired) to prevent a bang if the casing is accidentally cracked.


So, you're arguing that a cracked bilge switch is a problem... poorly maintained and abused equipment is always a problem. If you're so clumsy that your bilge switches all have cracked casings... you really got to look at what the real problem is... it ain't the switches.



> Basically, alcohol stove = boat can catch fire; propane stove = boat can explode. Which one you chose will depend upon what you're comfortable with.


A properly maintained propane system is safer than a properly maintained alcohol stove IMHO, since it affords less chance for user error. Also, since it cooks far faster, it is going to be in use a smaller percentage of the time. Finally, anyone who sails a boat and doesn't shut the valves on their propane tanks off manually when not actually using the propane is just asking for trouble.



> Personally, I prefer the fire option, since at least that gives you a chance to use an extinguisher or abandon ship - but most people go with propane because it's easiest to use and take the (albeit low) risk...


Neither fire or explosion is a good thing on a boat. Generally, alcohol-based fires get out of control far faster than most people realize, since the flames are initially nearly invisible and the fuel is also very hard to detect-so the fires can get fairly well established before being noticed.


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

sailingdog said:


> So, you're arguing that a cracked bilge switch is a problem... poorly maintained and abused equipment is always a problem. If you're so clumsy that your bilge switches all have cracked casings... you really got to look at what the real problem is... it ain't the switches.


SD, you stated in Post #41 that "most bilge pump switches, since they are designed for use on both gasoline and diesel powered boats, are ignition proof switches".

I was merely challenging a statement of yours that is complete and total bunkum... and I feel quite honoured to be able to do so!


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## RealityCheck (Jun 2, 2007)

TrueBlue said:


> When I say a POT of water Joe, I mean a 4-6 qt pot, enough for lobster or pasta - not a saucepan for making French Press coffee.
> 
> With my experience, it takes 5 minutes for a gallon of water to boil using LPG - at _least_ 20-30 minutes with a "Pressurized" alcohol cooktop, what my last boat had. Alcohol stoves with a wick will take much longer.
> 
> Who wants to have a heating source steam up the galley for over an hour during a hot summer day? Remember to include cooking times too.


I'll totally agree with this one and you can add an hour for non pressurized cook tops 
PLUS something that I didn't see mentioned... life time of the Alcohol... if you keep it some time in a container you "think" is well sealed but none are... you end up with a mix of alcohol and water... now try and keep that lit


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I use an ancient coleman 2 burner and the 1# propane can. All cans are stored above deck in a PVC tube on the stearn. I just pop off the one I've been using and take it outside. No muss, no fuss, and I sleep well at night.

nebo


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I used Origo for a long time, then ended up with propane. There is no comparison. Faster, easier and much better control. Get a sniffer.


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

This topic (propane versus alcohol) has been the subject of a surprising large number of threads in the last few months with some VERY stong opinions on each side! IMHO, both are good choices for marine stove fuel, but each has its advantages and disadvantages which have been (mostly) outlined pretty well above by their proponents. My thoughts:

1. If your boat is on the smaller size and currently has a pressurized alcohol stove, I would recommend switching to an Origo. The non-pressurized Origo is much more convenient to use, cooks faster, and is much less likely to experience a fire (if you follow the filling instructions). If you tally up the cost to switch to propane, it probably won't make sense unless you do a lot of cruising. But that's not likely in a small boat. And finding space for a proper propane locker on a small boat can be impossible.

2. If your boat currently has propane, I can't see why you would switch. Just make sure the system is properly installed and maintained. Propane is definitely very convenient and has excellent performance. 

3. The comments by the propane proponents about the huge difference in cooking time compared to alcohol are not correct. The rated output (in BTU/hr) of an Origo burner and the typical propane burner are about the same. In a related tread a month or so ago JeffH reports on a test he ran during a raftup. The same pot with the same amount of water from the same jug was timed to boiling on his Origo and several propane stoves. The Origo's time was very close to the average of the propane stoves - faster than some, slower than others. Not a scientific test, but confirms the Mfr's ratings. 

Bottom line is I currently have an Origo 3000 which replaced a Kenyon pressurized stove. My wife is delighted with the upgrade. If my next boat has propane, I will be perfectly happy. But I will make sure the installation is done correctly and will maintain it carefully.


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## gmalan (Jul 17, 2007)

*Alcohol and propane are both dangerous!*

I recently had the misfortune of our alcohol stove catching fire (full story in my blog at svsunnyspells.com.

I've always been uncomfortable with pre-heating the burners on our Maxi-Marine alcohol stove - it feels a bit like starting a barely controlled fire. This stove has an alcohol tank and drips alcohol into a tray around the burners for pre-heating.

On this occasion, we had all three burners going for quite a while, including the grill. For some reason which I still can't determine, the metho (alcohol) started pouring out of one of the burners (I suspect the grill), flooding the bottom of the stove and then running onto the cabin sole. When this caught alight, it was seconds before we had a roaring fire! It required a fire-extinguisher to put out the fire, which got out of control in an instant, and I was on the brink of abandoning ship. Fortunately, we escaped with only cosmetic damage.

The problem now, of course, is that I don't trust the stove&#8230;

I've learned a lot from the experience though, particularly regarding fire-extinguishers and using them in an emergency. I was intrigued by my sub-conscious reluctance to fire a $20 fire extinguisher while the boat was going up in flames&#8230; It's also bloody difficult to operate the fire extinguisher when you'd rather be looking at the inferno right in front of you than the extinguisher in your hands.

I don't know whether I would prefer propane, but I do feel a bit biased against the alcohol stove now though. One should not underestimate how quickly an alcohol fire gets out of control.

My alcohol stove is no slower to cook on than the propane stove on a race boat (that I crew on), so that's not a big deal to me. I often cook pasta on the alcohol stove with no problem. Interestingly, the remains of what used to be propane plumbing are still in the boat, so a previous owner obviously expressed his preference by voting with his wallet!

I recently put a propane barbeque (Magma) on the pushpit, and hung a propane bottle on the pushpit too. That's always my first choice for cooking!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Yes, both are dangerous, but a properly installed LPG system is far safer than a pressurized alcohol stove ever will be. It sounds like you've got a pressurized alcohol system. Get rid of it...and get either an Origo unpressurized alcohol stove or install a full propane system.


gmalan said:


> I recently had the misfortune of our alcohol stove catching fire (full story in my blog at svsunnyspells.com.
> 
> I've always been uncomfortable with pre-heating the burners on our Maxi-Marine alcohol stove - it feels a bit like starting a barely controlled fire. This stove has an alcohol tank and drips alcohol into a tray around the burners for pre-heating.
> 
> ...


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

sailingdog said:


> Yes, both are dangerous, but a properly installed LPG system is far safer than a pressurized alcohol stove ever will be. It sounds like you've got a pressurized alcohol system. Get rid of it...and get either an Origo unpressurized alcohol stove or install a full propane system.


SD, from what he's desribed, it's not a pressurized stove - we've got exactly the same set-up.

The metho dribbles into the pan under gravity, and, yes, if you're not careful you can get a decent fire going before the burners are pre-heated enough to start working. You have to be bloody unlucky to lose it out of the stove itself though! 

Once the pool of meths is alight, we put a pan over the top to stop the flame reaching the deckhead (yes, it can get that high!!), but that's no different to leaving the gas on for a few seconds too long when lighting a propane stove (it's actually probably safer, 'cause at least you can *see* the alcohol!)

gmalan: It's a problem with no easy answer, but we're glad to hear you're okay. Now that you've got the fire out, you've got the fun task of cleaning up the mess. Fire exinguishers contain corrosive chemicals, so make sure you clean it all up and wash down with water where you can. 

Cameron


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## Plumper (Nov 21, 2007)

I have a Dickenson Pacific that I use in cold weather and an alcohol stove that sits on top that I use in warm weather. My previous boat also had an alcohol stove (gimballed with and oven). The alcohol stoves (and the Dickenson) are slower than propane but both are easy to live with.

One point not noted here: if your propane stove does leak and the sniffer alarm goes off then what do you do? Getting a heavier than air gas off a boat at sea is very difficult. Spilled alcohol can be mopped up or will just evaporate. Spilled diesel, you all know that drill.....

A charter boat that had just disembarked a load of school kids blew up in Nanaimo Harbour last summer because of a propane leak. Even the most cautious and safe installations can have failures and the result is catastrophic, not just a fire that you can put out with water.

Sailboat explodes, sinks off Nanaimo


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

Plumper said:


> ...
> One point not noted here: if your propane stove does leak and the sniffer alarm goes off then what do you do? Getting a heavier than air gas off a boat at sea is very difficult. Spilled alcohol can be mopped up or will just evaporate. Spilled diesel, you all know that drill.....


Good point. If you can't get off the boat, just about all you can do is:

*Don't* light a match (presumably what you were just about to do in the first place). *Do not *touch anything electrical or try to start the engine. If it's running and you can stop it without going aground, do so.
Open hatches fore and aft to try to get some air flow into and through the boat. Lift the floorboards if you can.
Wait.. twiddle thumbs.. for at least 10 minutes, hoping that the alarm will go off by itself.
Buy an alcohol stove the moment you get in...  

Cameron


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

> One point not noted here: if your propane stove does leak and the sniffer alarm goes off then what do you do?


My propane alarm is set off by numerous vapours and fumes in addition to the propane. When it does go off, I turn it off, open the hatches and air the boat out a bit more. When I turn it on again the alarm is quiet.

In order for the propane to explode the gas to oxygen ratio has to be just right. It does happen of course, but it's not a frequent occurrence.


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

Sailormann said:


> In order for the propane to explode the gas to oxygen ratio has to be just right. It does happen of course, but it's not a frequent occurrence.


A gas-air ratio of between 2% and 11% to be exact - and that's not hard to achieve on a boat already full of air.

It might not be a *frequent* occurence - but it does happen somewhere in the world on at least a yearly basis ...and if it happens, I'm quite sure you don't want to be on board at the time.

That would be an experience you would *not* live to regret.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

If you're really worried about the propane system, install an ignitioin proof blower fan, like what is found on in-board gasoline powered boats. It would be able to vent the boat rather quickly, removing the risk of the boat exploding.

IIRC, if you look at BoatUS's book, Seaworthy, which is based on their claim experience of 20+ years, you'll see that alcohol stoves, particularly pressurized ones, were a much greater danger. The problem with alcohol is that it burns with a near invisible flame and it is often hard to tell if an alcohol fire has been started, or if you've spilled the fuel.

Also when you try to extinguish an alcohol-fire, don't use water, since an inadequate amount of water will only spread the alcohol and flames, and it can often end up with the flames pouring down into the bilge and making the fire worse.

Yes, you can extinguish an alcohol fire with water, but it takes a lot more water than most people think. If you think about the fact that most hard liquor, 80 proof and stronger, is highly flammable.... that means that you only need 40% alcohol by volume for the flames to continue burning...

Yes, gasoline and propane can be an explosion hazard. Yes, they're both heavier than air. However, a proper fume detector and bilge blower setup can reduce the risks greatly. BoatUS's book also points out that very few gasoline or propane explosions happen on boats that are properly equipped with a bilge blower system.

User error is the biggest cause of galley fires-regardless of the type of stove used. The more difficult or complicated a stove is to use, the more likely the chance the user will screw it up. A propane stove, especially one with a piezo or electric igniter will generally be far easier to use than an alcohol or diesel/kerosene stove. YMMV.

One other point... where do you store the fuel for an alcohol stove. Most denatured alcohol I've bought comes in metal cans... and they tend to rust out fairly quickly. A properly installed propane locker will have an overboard drain for the gas, in case the tank itself or the regulator components start to leak. I have a composite fiberglass tank for the propane system on my boat, and it solves the problem of the tank rusting for the most part. Storing alcohol inside the cabin of the boat can be just as problematic as storing gasoline, and if it spills, it can also become an explosion hazard.



Hartley18 said:


> A gas-air ratio of between 2% and 11% to be exact - and that's not hard to achieve on a boat already full of air.
> 
> It might not be a *frequent* occurence - but it does happen somewhere in the world on at least a yearly basis ...and if it happens, I'm quite sure you don't want to be on board at the time.
> 
> That would be an experience you would *not* live to regret.


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## SkywalkerII (Feb 20, 2008)

It seems clear to me that most people have made the mental switch to propane and find the risk acceptable. I was not sailing at the time, but I bet a similar change in perception occured in the 70s as gas engines were being replaced by diesel - after decades of use, gas became too dangerous. We learn to accept certain "truths".

I chose kerosene as a cooking and heating fuel on my C&C. I have young chidlren and feared a carless mistake was too high a risk for the convenience of propane. 

You may find it ironic, though, that when I needed to repower, I replaced the old Atomic 4 gas engine with a rebuilt Atomic 4 gas engine. I hate the smell of deisel and could not find a documented case of a sailboat suffering an explosion for gasolene. Propane makes boats look like popcorn when all goes wrong.

BTW, I have a complete propane oven/stove, storage locker, aluminum tank, soelenoid system available for sale.

Skywalker


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## Joesaila (May 19, 2007)

Just finished a second 150 mile sail around the outer cape to Nantucket, M.V. and the canal. Each trip lasted a week and there were 4 adults on board. The non pressurised [2 burner Origo] lasted on a single fill up at the start and there were no problems. [I would never try to fill it while sailing] Its not difficult at all to see the blue flame and the heat was very sufficient. I am looking for a way to make bread. [we don't have an oven, but I'm certain it can be done] We do have a propane grill for the rail and I would like to find out about safely stowing those small tanks below. Is there a locking box or system anyone is aware of?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Don't store the propane canisters below. They're prone to leaking, especially after being used once...

The best storage system for them is to make a "propane locker" for them out of Schedule 80 PVC pipe. The locker is basically a section of tube with end cap welded on the bottom, that has had a large 1/2" hole drilled in it. The tube is then fastened to a stanchion or the lifelines and the propane tanks are dropped into it. Another end cap is put over the top and fastened either by a hole drilled with a 1/4" fast pin or a piece of bungee cord.



Joesaila said:


> Just finished a second 150 mile sail around the outer cape to Nantucket, M.V. and the canal. Each trip lasted a week and there were 4 adults on board. The non pressurised [2 burner Origo] lasted on a single fill up at the start and there were no problems. [I would never try to fill it while sailing] Its not difficult at all to see the blue flame and the heat was very sufficient. I am looking for a way to make bread. [we don't have an oven, but I'm certain it can be done] We do have a propane grill for the rail and I would like to find out about safely stowing those small tanks below. Is there a locking box or system anyone is aware of?


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## L124C (Oct 4, 2007)

*Huh?*



TrueBlue said:


> A close friend and I were anchored in our separate boats off Fort Adams 2 seasons ago, to watch the Newport Folk Festival. My wife and our two 20-something kids were on True Blue, close by his 25 y/o Pearson 33, while he and his party guests got pretty wasted during the course of the afternoon.
> 
> Close to 5:00 pm, he decided to cook some food, pumped up his pressurized tank, but was distracted by the encore performance and went up into the cockpit. Apparently, his valve was open before he pressurized the tank - overflowing the burner cup and sending alcohol fuel down into his bilge.
> 
> ...


A few questions: If the burner was open, how did he achieve the required pressure when filling the system? Wouldn't happen on my pressurised alcohol stove. I would see I wasn't getting to 20lbs, and know something was wrong. Why didn't he smell the fumes when he entered the Galley to light the stove? This much alcohol in the Salon of a boat is going to have a significant odor. If it doesn't, the alcohol has evaporated already (which it does fairly rapidly). On my stove, you would have to pour at least two gallons of fuel onto the burners to allow it to flow down, fill up the bottom of the oven, overflow the containment pan below the stove, and flow into the bilge. No offense to your friend, but I believe your example is not an indictment of pressurised alcohol stoves as much as it is skippers who don't use common sense. He could have made similar mistakes with Propane, and everyone could have been BLOWEN off the boat! Quite simply, you have to pay attention when working with ANY fuels on a boat. Given the nature of the event and mistakes made, I wonder if the problematic alcohol wasn't in the stove at all, but in the Skipper!


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