# My Boat Won't Back (in a straight or controlled line)



## NCC320 (Dec 23, 2008)

Over the last few years, I've seen lots of posts with this or similar complaint. And, I've watched people struggle at backing into slips, even when the boat will back fairly well. Some boat designs may not back well, but I would like to suggest a slightly different technique which might make you happier with your boat.

I may be suggesting something that will not work, but try it and maybe it will.
When I was negotiating to buy my boat (Catalina 320), I went to a boat show to see a competitive boat. The Catalina dealer had single handed a new Catalina 42 into a tricky docking arrangement at the show docks. I inquired how he was able to do it. He said that it was easy. The trick to controlling in reverse is to get the boat going. Once you get sufficient speed in reverse, the boat responds to the rudder in going backwards. just like it does going forward. It looks neat to drive in just past your slip in the traditional manner, turn away, then throw engine in reverse and back into the slip. To do this consistently, you have to know your boat well, adjust for wind, current and other variables. But you don't have to do it this way (at least not on my boat and the C42). Nearly all boats have prop walk...it has to do with the geometry of the prop, the surrounding boat and discharge stream of water (if the discharge is up and against the boat, and forward, then you get significant walk --- you get prop walk going forward, but the discharge is more into the rudder and away from the boat, and you just don't notice it as much because you correct for it with the rudder).
The dealer said, don't worry about prop walk. Well away from the dock, put the boat in reverse, increase power gradually, and get the boat moving in reverse. Gradually increase throttle and speed so that eventually the rudder takes over and controls the boat direction inspite of the prop walk. Keep the speed above this level, and just drive the boat in reverse. The dealer said that he just stood in front of the wheel and drove the zig zag course necessary to get into his slip. This is the technique that I use now. It looks a little strange because I will back down a long fairway and simply drive down, and turn into the slip going backwards. If you have a line handler forward, you can dock without even touching the pilings. If there is a crosswind sufficiently high, or going downwind, I have had to abandon this techique on occasion and dock bow first, but otherwise, it makes docking really easy. Once you start into the slip, lock the wheel brake down to prevent damage to the rudder (it can slam into the stocks if not restrained). You lock it down just enough to hold the rudder, but so you can still override the brake to control the rudder in docking. My C320 is a wing keel and is really quite maneuverable, so I'm sure that it's easier for me, but I believe many of you who say your boat won't back, it may be because you haven't tried this technique. If you try it in open water, you'll not damage anything and you'll learn if it is possible. And if your boat really won't back using this technique, then learn the back and fill technique that power boats (with small rudders) typically use. In regards to locking the wheel/rudder with brake, don't do this until you are nearly in your slip, because you loose rudder/wheel sensitivity and can't respond to wind shifts well unless you have the sensitivity. Also, many boats (mine anyway) will lay beam to the wind if you just let it go. Before you start trying to back, put the boat in this position relative to the wind. If you try to head into the wind, like you would if you are dropping your sails, the wind, the boat's natural tendency to fall off beam to wind, and prop walk will conspire to spin you around and out of control. Putting the boat in the position where it naturally wants to go, minimizes this tendency. If the boat is going too fast when you approach your slip, simply shift momentarily into forward to check your speed, but not long enough to stop the backward movement and rudder control. Also, you can shift alternately in and out of gear to control your speed. And going backwards first, if you need to abort, shift into forward and hit the trottle. You'll be surprised how well you can get out of a messed up approach. And if you do miss the approach, don't try to correct. It's going to get screwed up. Abort, go out and start again. Good luck.

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## rayncyn51 (Aug 8, 2008)

We use basically the same technique with our Catlaina 30. Once she is moving in reverse, I have complete confidance that she will go exactly where I point her. 

When making the transition to reverse, I steer about 20 feet to the right of the line I want to steer in reverse, then take off the last forward speed with a shallow left turn, leaving the boat about 30 degrees to the expected direction of travel in reverse. Once in reverse, slowly increasing throttle pulls the stern to the left and back in line with the intended direction of travel. As water starts to flow under the boat, a little left wheel helps to couteract the prop walk. The swing slows, the boat moves backwards, and after that, it's just driving. 

We used to have some real docking disasters trying to reverse and back into the slip from the fairway. Now we reverse in the basin, back all the way down the fairway, and turn right into the slip.


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## rmeador (Jan 16, 2010)

I've only docked stern-first once, and it was quite frightening. I noticed that my boat will steer in reverse if it is going fast enough, but the turning radius is terrible. There's not nearly enough space for me to use that technique to get into my slip. The trick I used in my trial by fire was to put it in reverse at high throttle until I get moving, then give it a quick burst in forward with the wheel turned hard in the way I want to go (actually I think it might be the opposite way... I do it automatically). The burst of forward causes the stern to quickly swing without killing the backwards momentum. It's almost like a stern thruster. Since this has to be done multiple times, I don't even bother straightening the wheel before going into reverse again, since at this low speed the rudder has nearly no effect.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Rmeador—

Most boats will turn quite tightly in one direction and horribly in the other... you might want to take you boat out and see what the case with it it. Sometimes, doing a 270˚ turn is easier than doing a 90˚ one.


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## Sabreman (Sep 23, 2006)

We've used the same technique for years and you are correct that the key is to get the boat moving. I will also note that when we switch from forward to reverse, we use significant throttle to stop any remaining forward motion and to get the boat moving in reverse. My wife has a tendency to forget to throttle up when in reverse, so I gently remind her beforehand that idling in reverse is useless.

Another tip is to make sure that the engine is in neutral before switching to reverse. Shifting directly from forward to reverse can kill a transmission. We coast parallel to the slip and while making the 90 deg turn to back in, bleeding off forward speed. Only when we're lined up with the slip (offset to starboard 1/2 boat width to account for prop walk) do we put the boat into reverse.

I do not like to stand in front of the wheel facing aft because then all the engine controls are reversed and it's hard for me to reach the shifter and throttle. I prefer to face forward and look over my shoulder. Just remember to turn the wheel in the direction that you want the stern to go. For tillers, point the aft end of the tiller where you want the stern to go. It's that easy.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Also, you really have to make sure that the boat is making way in reverse before turning the wheel or tiller. If you're not actually moving backwards, the boat is not going to go where you want it to.


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## NCC320 (Dec 23, 2008)

One other thing,

Lots of boats are geared such that in reverse, the maximum prop rpm (i.e. at maximum engine rpm) is less in reverse than in forward. In my boat, maximum prop rpm is only 75% of forward rpm. So when, one shifts to reverse, you really need to apply lots of power. It'll sound like something should be happening with all the noise, and it will eventually. Just be patient because there is a big argument going on between the prop and rudder as to who is going to be in control. If you have much forward speed on when you go to reverse, this is going to take a bit of time, but eventually the boat will start to move in reverse. Until these forces resolve the situation, it's better to just keep the rudder admidships. Putting on lots of rudder until the boat is moving, is just going to cause the rudder to act as a brake against that initial backing movement and aggrevate the prop walk issue. And don't worry about the boat walking around. Once you get moving, you can correct this with the rudder. That's one of the reasons to start this process outside the fairway, where you could conceivably get into a position that you can't get out of. Outside, you don't have to worry about it. And also, you don't have to worry about where current and wind are moving you before backing movement is established.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Part and parcel of 'getting the boat moving' is resisting the impulse to put the helm over for the turn before steerage is attained... doing so simply puts the brakes on and increases side motion in many cases.

Keep the rudder centered until it will actually do something for you.

Also, once you know how much propwalk rotation you'll experience, simply point the boat at an angle such the the propwalk will straighten you out about the same time you start moving and having steerage.

All that said, though, there ARE some (actually many)designs that will not respond to any of these techniques. A short cord fin/spade rudder is always going to do OK in the right hands


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## Boasun (Feb 10, 2007)

A new type of race: Backing a single screwed boat around salom pilings and the fastest times. Lets say a two mile distance overall.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

Once you get the boat going with sufficient speed to maintain steerageway; you can eliminate prop walk by putting the transmission in neutral.


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## centaursailor (Nov 7, 2010)

jackdale said:


> Once you get the boat going with sufficient speed to maintain steerageway; you can eliminate prop walk by putting the transmission in neutral.


Or hitting something solid.
Never knew they went in backways!
Safe reversing


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## EJO (Jan 10, 2010)

Hey it must be nice that you all can back into a slip, but for what? So you can get out quicker going forward? I like watching boat traffic coming by from my cockpit(stern) much better than watching the people gawking into my cabin from land/the dock. That said I wish that I can stop my boat from going forward. No matter how much throttle I give in reverse it takes some time to stop my 12Klbs 32' boat with the 30HP A4. Maybe I should go to a 3 bladed prop?


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## jrd22 (Nov 14, 2000)

I usually get the boat going pretty good in reverse before it decides where it wants to go )


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

I haven't tried this with my Morgan 33 OI yet, but when the winds are up and pose a problem docking, I back down faster. I've only done this with my Catalina 27, which responds very well to the tiller in reverse. Some of my sailing counterparts have come over from the next pier and asked if I could provide them with lessons on backing into their slips. They say they've never seen someone back up so fast and accurately and never hit a piling or the pier. I try to explain that the only reason I have good control is because of the higher speed. I usually end up mixing them a Margaretta and the parties kick off at the end of my dock. 

Just another fun day in Paradise! 

Gary


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

EJO said:


> Hey it must be nice that you all can back into a slip, but for what?


We generally dock the boat stern first at the end of a charter or lessons. This permits easier loading and unloading. And it does make leaving the dock easier for the next charterer,

We also want our students to be able to do a Med moor, which is usually stern-to. In addition, when we stern-tie to shore we are generally trying to get to a specific spot.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

centaursailor said:


> Or hitting something solid.
> Never knew they went in backways!
> Safe reversing


Huh?


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

sailingdog said:


> Also, you really have to make sure that the boat is making way in reverse before turning the wheel or tiller. If you're not actually moving backwards, the boat is not going to go where you want it to.


Exactly, when a boat is moving forward, the prop is throwing water over the rudder. In reverse, you need water moving over the rudder to get steerageway. As mentioned in another post, keep the rudder amidships until you have steerage, otherwise you have a big brake.


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## MikeinLA (Jul 25, 2006)

My Cat 36 wants to back to port as, I think, most boats do. I used to have a really odd slip which required that I back out to starboard and do a 180 so as to proceed down the fairway. I quickly learned that trick about getting it moving in reverse, then putting it in neutral. Went to starboard like a breeze. The day I really learned how to handle my boat was when we were coming down our rather narrow fairway to the slip (different slip) and just as I was making the turn into the slip, I notice there's a 20" boat parked in my slip. Apparently he had come to visit my neighbor. I used short bursts of power in reverse, then forward, then reverse, etc with the rudder hard to starboard and spun by boat around in it's own length and proceeded out of the fairway while yelling at the offending captain to get his f'ing boat out of my slip. I actually impressed myself, and my boat buddies thought I was a GOD. :laugher 

Mike


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## GaryHLucas (Mar 24, 2008)

I used to back into my slip with my Hunter 27 all the time. However instead of fighting the prop walk I practiced using it to go where I wanted. So I would approach my slip running along all the slips dead slow, then turn hard away from my slip and throwing it into reverse. The prop walk would complete the turn for me and I would be picking up speed in reverse. Then I'd drop it out of gear and back right in,steering with the rudder. With my new to me boat, an Etap 26, I went out in the bay and practiced driving it in reverse for about half an hour before attempting to enter my slip in reverse. It almost looked like I knew what I was doing when I finally docked.

Gary H. Lucas


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

MikeinLA said:


> Apparently he had come to visit my neighbor. I used short bursts of power in reverse, then forward, then reverse, etc with the rudder hard to starboard and spun by boat around in it's own length and proceeded out of the fairway while yelling at the offending captain to get his f'ing boat out of my slip. I actually impressed myself, and my boat buddies thought I was a GOD. :laugher
> 
> Mike


This is a maneuver we teach all of our students. Works for right hand drives - most direct drives. Many saildrives are left hand screws, so the maneuver is done to port. You should not need to use much throttle.

It is hard to drive the bow through wind, so it requires fairly calm conditions.


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## centaursailor (Nov 7, 2010)

_*I try to explain that the only reason I have good control is because of the higher speed. I usually end up mixing them a Margaretta and the parties kick off at the end of my dock.

Just another fun day in Paradise! *_
Were do I sign up


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## NCC320 (Dec 23, 2008)

EJO said:


> Hey it must be nice that you all can back into a slip, but for what? So you can get out quicker going forward? I like watching boat traffic coming by from my cockpit(stern) much better than watching the people gawking into my cabin from land/the dock. That said I wish that I can stop my boat from going forward. No matter how much throttle I give in reverse it takes some time to stop my 12Klbs 32' boat with the 30HP A4. Maybe I should go to a 3 bladed prop?


I tend to agree with you regarding people gawking into cabin, but docking, like most things, is a compromise. In addition to being easier to board (if you have a short finger pier) and easier to depart slip, if you are a single hander, an advantage (for me anyway) is that with the stern first approach, from the helm station, I can get the initial lines on the outer piling without leaving the helm. I usually have some crosswind, so if I don't get the lines on quickly, the boat is banging against the piling or finger pier. Also in my case, the boat fits into its slip really well stern to pier, not very well with bow to pier because of hull and slip configeration. And braking by shifting to forward is a lot more effective than trying to back down a boat going forward.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

With a boat and technique that results in good control in reverse, you'll often have better 'brakes' shifting to forward than reverse, esp if a folding prop is involved.

We often back into unfamiliar or tight spots for this reason, among others.


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## montenido (May 14, 2008)

Hi all,

Great information here. I will try it this week. I just had to mention that I was bored and motoring around my harbor a couple of months ago when I figured that I would practice backing. I have a three-bladed folding MaxProp. Anyway, I motored in reverse all around my marina twice. 

Got some great looks and comments from other boaters :laugher , but the experience is valuable.

Give it a try!

Cheers, Bill


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## sailortom (Feb 27, 2000)

Did the zig-zag thingie taking my charter boat course. We used the mooring bouys in the marina. After doing it forward, I asked the instructor if I could try it in reverse. It had a spade keel, so it was a piece of cake with no wind. A bit harder with my IP 320.


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

There's a world of difference between a fin keel/spade rudder boat with a Max Prop and a full keel boat with a fixed prop when backing.

My boat is a 35 footer with a 3-blade MaxProp. The elliptical keel and spade rudder make for a very maneuverable boat in reverse. The MaxProp has something to do with this, since it does not have cupped blades and has just as much thrust in reverse as in forward.

By comparison, we've chartered mostly Island Packets, from 35' to 42', over the past dozen years. These boats are relatively heavy, have a modified full keel and an attached rudder. The fixed prop is cupped. They go forward very predictably, but have less thrust and noticeable prop walk in reverse. Backing out of a slip requires that you get some way on promptly, so the rudder can get some bite to counteract the prop walk. If you are in a cross-wind/current situation, it can be dicey.


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## sailjunkie (Nov 4, 2009)

Very good thread, with lots of good suggestions. When all is said and done, I think that it boils down to:


the boat, and it's handling characteristics.
the technique used.
the characteristics of the propellor.
My dock buddy swears that his Ericsson 30 will not back up under any circumstances. I think that most posters on this thread would disagree with that, and I do too.

Prior to taking the Basic Instructors clinic 13 years ago, backing boats was a nightmare for me. I might get away with backing the club's Cal 20, but there was no way I could back a Catalina 27.

I managed to get through most of the clinic, right up to the final practical on a Catalina 320. To put it kindly, I was not having a good day. Then, David West, our evaluator, showed me a trick that turned me into a very happy camper. It is real simple:


Put the boat in full speed reverse, UNTIL you feel the boat moving in the direction that you want.

THEN throttle back to the desired speed and back up happily into the sunset! 

I have never had a bad docking experience since. In fact, the wharfinger at Powell River loves us. BC members of SN may know that transient moorage at Powell River often involves rafting up in tight quarters. I will cheerfully back boats into those slips all day.

I don't want to knock the advantages of prop walk. In fact, since buying our own boat, I take full advantage of the limited prop walk that our Kiwi prop has. However, you probably won't appreciate the advantages of prop walk if backing the boat scares the crap out of you. 

Meanwhile, thanks to all for an enjoyable, informative thread.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

sailortom said:


> Did the zig-zag thingie taking my charter boat course. We used the mooring bouys in the marina. After doing it forward, I asked the instructor if I could try it in reverse. It had a spade keel, so it was a piece of cake with no wind. A bit harder with my IP 320.


When reversing remember to hand-over-hand the wheel. Otherwise it will spin uncontrollably and may cause damage to the steering mechanism.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

I described a similar reverse docking procedure awhile back. For those who wonder why anyone would want to back in, some marinas have short finger docks, and some boats are difficult to board on the bow. That combination of factors can make backing in absolutely necessary. Also, docking in strong currents makes reversing direction suicidal - by the time you regain steering, you've already drifted into the dock. So you need to go backwards the whole way. I initially get funny looks when standing in front of the wheel facing backwards, but they are always followed by nods of approval when they see how effective it is:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gener...d-advice-leaving-my-slip-strong-currents.html

For those who have an outboard, a hard link makes low speed maneuvering much better because it eliminates the need to have any speed past the rudder. Here's my design:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gener...ing-my-slip-strong-currents-4.html#post606388


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## CapnBilll (Sep 9, 2006)

This makes good sense. Prop walk is generated when the prop is turning through the water faster than the boat is moving. This is why you use short bursts of throttle to generate it on purpose.


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## CapnBilll (Sep 9, 2006)

This makes good sense. Prop walk is generated when the prop is turning through the water faster than the boat is moving. This is why you use short bursts of throttle to generate it on purpose.


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## CapnBilll (Sep 9, 2006)

This makes good sense. Prop walk is generated when the prop is turning through the water faster than the boat is moving. This is why you use short bursts of throttle to generate it on purpose.


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

Depending on your approach and the slip parameters, you may find it easier to back into a slip with the aid of a spring line. You might want to practice it where you have room for error first.

I routinely back my 35' sloop into the leeward side of a floating dock with the aid of a spring line. I do not have another dock nearby, which is helpful. My dock is in shallow water, so I often have my keel retracted and my spade rudder kicked up. The boat is very hard to maneuver in this mode, so the spring line is what saves the day.

My procedure is to bring the boat amidships to the corner of the dock at about 90 degrees to the dock ""crossing the tee"). I pick up a prepared spring line from the corner of the dock and secure the loop at the bitter end to a midships cleat and simply back down. The boat swings into the dock (don't forget your fenders) and lines up parallel to the dock if you've got the spring line properly sized. You can then secure the boat with regular dock lines.

This technique does not work as well if you are trying to back into a narrow slip, but it is remarkable effective otherwise. You might actually find a spring line helpful when pulling forward into a slip when the wind or current are trying to push you off the dock. By powering against the spring line, you will bring the boat up to the dock or float, which will allow you to secure the boat more or less at your leisure.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

The other time this approach is useful is with a twin screw (catamaran) boat when one engine is out. Prop walk is nothing by comparison.

There is one other caveat: if you are backing quickly (even 2 knots) and hit the gas to either get out of a blown approach or to slow down in the slip, the boat will turn away from the functioning engine uncontrollably for at least a 90 degree turn. Thus, you must go very slowly on the final approach. Honestly, it's wiser to pull in, fix the engine, and then turn the boat.


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## CapnRon47 (Jul 29, 2007)

*Backing up*

Fallard,
I know exactly what you mean about the rudder and keel. :laugher :laugher

Keel and rudder down










Keel and rudder up










I have to bring them up as the water is usually shallow at our dock, fortuantely we are a bit protected from cross winds and I have lots of room. so I just have to judge the angle right as I start to back in.










I use the spring line only to stop us, I pick it up as I pass the outer pilling and walk back, take her out of gear and cleat off. If the winds up, I just pull in and wait until tomorrow.



Ron


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## MikeinLA (Jul 25, 2006)

jackdale said:


> When reversing remember to hand-over-hand the wheel. Otherwise it will spin uncontrollably and may cause damage to the steering mechanism.


Also, if you are ever backing out of a row of slips into the main fairway, keep a firm hold on the wheel. If there's a strong current running, your rudder will hit it first and rip the wheel out of your hands as the current slams the rudder hard over. Don't ask how I know this.

Mike


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

MikeinLA said:


> Also, if you are ever backing out of a row of slips into the main fairway, keep a firm hold on the wheel. If there's a strong current running, your rudder will hit it first and rip the wheel out of your hands as the current slams the rudder hard over. Don't ask how I know this.
> 
> Mike


I had pointed out something similar in the thread I linked above. For those with outboards, the link connecting the motor to the rudder helps balance the rudder. Here's what I posted on the topic in the above link:



RhythmDoctor said:


> ...There is one other huge benefit that I had hoped for but wanted to confirm. You can see from the messages above that we do a lot of backing up in close quarters, and I have to hold the wheel very tightly because the rudder is so badly balanced in reverse. If I let go of the wheel for a split second, the rudder would turn hard in whatever direction it wanted. But with the rudder linked to the motor, that no longer happens. The motor is very well balanced in reverse, and keeps the rudder steady. I can loosen my grip on the wheel, and even let go momentarily if I need to.


FYI, I realize that the OP does not have an outboard on his C320, but others will read this thread and might benefit from my comments. I almost decided to buy a C320 last year, but decided to go smaller for river sailing.


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