# Sailing boredom, or rather why so many unused boats?



## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

I've seen a few threads on here about people getting out.
I've toured a few local marinas and found a lot of sailboats that have been sitting, for well, forever.

Some boats, albeit few, are sailed a lot.

Now I get people get busy and hobbies suffer (getting married, kids, grandkids, moving, job changes, etc.) those kinds of problems affect all boaters, and all hobbies. But it is more than that.

In our little marina in the northeast, there were a lot of boats, probably half of the marina were sailboats. The boats there were used at least a couple times a season. Maybe because they had to haul out every winter, it forced only those inclined to put back in, so at least it weeded out those that weren't going anymore?

In these marinas where you can leave in year round there seems to be a lot that haven't been touched for sometimes a year, or more. It seems silly to me that people would pay marina fees for boats they aren't using.

We can debate all day long about whether sailing as a sport/hobby is waning (and I think it is, honestly I think most hobbies are) but I want to know specifically if people are getting "bored" with sailing and just not doing it, or if its is really just life getting in the way.

I noted that a couple of my marina neighbors have both a sailboat and a motorboat (or ski boat). Is it the social aspect of sailing isn't appealing to others?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Hard to make broad judgements. Around here, I see plenty of boats out sailing. More than powerboats usually. I know more than one boat in our marina, whose owner only sails mid-week, when it's less busy. One only does weeknight racing and, at best, comes to live aboard on weekends. 

I'd estimate, of the fleet over 30ft, they seem to come back year after year, so they must provide value to their owners. Under 30ft seem to turn over by at least a third each year. I'm guessing it's because the cost to be at a slip is a huge percentage of the value of many of these vessels, maybe even higher. I don't think that's the proper calculus, since it's more of a vacation rental fee and has nothing to do with the value of your vehicle. Nevertheless, I'd guess the psychology is difficult.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I sold my keel boat for the exact reason the thread title suggests. I found it boring. I liked the cottage on the water aspect, but sailing keel boats themselves I found not to be very exciting. Every time I reached a new destination I would launch my hard shell sailing dinghy from the davits and do something I found to be more enjoyable. Dinghy sailing.

There probably are some keel boats that I would enjoy sailing, sport boats come to mind. But when it comes to bang for the entertainment buck, give me a dinghy or a beach cat. Its been my observation that boats 20 ft and under are sailed and enjoyed the most. But who knows.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

After having sailed my 30 footer all over the Northeast I recently had an epiphany that I don't really want to spend all that many hours in the cockpit revisiting a lot of the destinations I have already been to. I have found I enjoy sailing an hour or two to a nearby port and hang out there for as long as I please or I until see a weather window closing. Then it's a quick sail back to the homeport. It's no longer a long tedious sail like I use to make but, still enjoyable enough. I don't feel I'm missing out on anything having done those longer passages to destinations in my younger days. I'm enjoying the boat more and don't miss the boredom of those long passages.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

There’s a certain rhythmicity to a passage be it even as short as 24h or weeks. You miss that on a day sail. That simultaneous being spaced out and hyper alert. 
Personally unless in a race find day sailing boring. All that work and stress to get out and back in. All that traffic. Have a sailing dinghy. Same thing. Too much a PIA to set up for a short sail. It gets rowed a lot.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

I don't think you could point to any one reason boats don't get used. In our club there are quite a few boats that don't appear to go out much, but they could very well be going out during the week. Those boats are still being maintained and are obviously cared for. Even if the boats arent going sailing often their owners may be using them as a floating "man-cave", and they spend time on board tinkering or restoring, perhaps in anticipation of using the boat more when they retire?

There are also a few boats that could not sail if they wanted to because they have so much growth on their bottoms, and their propellers so encased in mussels. Those are the forgotten ones. In some cases their owners have lost interest, or they have health issues preventing them from getting out. The task of getting the boat back into sailing, or selling condition is so daunting maybe it is easier just to keep paying the mooreage.

A number of years ago our club instituted a "use it or loose it" policy requiring members to use their boats minimum number of times per year. This policy has for the most part eliminated the derelicts from the club, making room for more active members.

Of course the for-profit marinas don't care if you use your boat or not as long as you pay your bill. Those marinas cost much more than yacht clubs do. I am amazed at the neglected looking boats sitting in some of the most expensive marinas in the city where the mooreage costs more than the boat is worth annually. It is hard to fathom why people would do that! They obviously have money to burn! Mooreage is so hard to come by in this area that perhaps they don't want to give the slip up for fear of not being able to get mooreage again when they get a new boat? Perhaps they are not ready to give up on the romantic dream of sailing away into the sunset? 



Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Yesterday on the Bay we saw hundreds of sailboats.


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## 4arch (Jul 7, 2009)

I don’t think people get bored so much as life gets in the way and they don’t want to let go of what the idea of owning a boat - or of what being able to tell others they own a boat - means to them. Paying the annual slip fee might feel for some like a small price to pay for keeping the dream alive. 

Also, different people have different thresholds for how much usage justifies the expense. We feel like we’re doing pretty well if we take the boat out and/or stay aboard 50% of weekends from late April through mid-October. Some might find this too little usage and others might feel like it’s more than they could handle but if they’re happy with how much they’re using their boats then who cares - I’m happy for them.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Me sense is that recreational boats are almost exclusively used on the weekends in the USA... for the obvious reasons.... And weekends have to be given to other non work needs.... seeing family and so forth. Only fanatics are at their boat every weekend and sail off...

And as Mike points out when you've visited and explored the close reachable ports and then the further ones repeating tends to lose the original thrill. Then (for me) it's about really nice sailing... and so I need cooperating weather. 

I am OK with the cottage on the water and prefer hanging there for the weekend then at home. I like the idea of getting away/change of environment. Our boat is comfortable and fun to live on. The work is a drag but must be done. I enjoy finishing a project / job... so I need to sail the boat to make it worth while. But I prefer going somewhere, dropping the hook and sailing back then staying on the mooring. I have no interest whatsoever to overnight in any marina.

We can move our home port and drive more and our local sailing would be different. But it's not as if those ports are new. I can understand people being bored.


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

I think there are 3 categories of experiences:

1. Day sailing - what's nice about this is you actually sail, you don't do whatever you have to do to get there, wherever there is. The pure joy of making the boat move under sail. Go with the wind. As I get older, I like this best.

2. Coastal cruising - what's nice about this is visiting places and living on the water. I think those who are honest, that aren't living in the islands with beamy trade winds, know that you use your motor a whole lot to do this, so it's a bit less about sailing a bit more about living aboard.

3. Offshore passage making - what's nice about this is you get into a rhythm, and hopefully you've picked a way to go and a time to go so you can sail a whole lot to get there. Leave the world behind. Bad side is you may not be able to time bad weather, good side, it's an adventure and you get someplace really interesting.

People like these 3 categories for different reasons. 

But I do agree that sailing is dying. Yes, you can go to Newport and there are lots of sailboats out sailing, but that's an exception not the rule IMHO. 

In my neighborhood, the new popular boat is a center console that's as long as an aircraft carrier with a plethora of big outboards on the back. Used to be 2 outboards, then 3, then 4, now I see many with 5. The biggest I've seen is 65' with 5 count them 5 627 HP outboards. Over 3000 HP. I don't know what the fuel capacity is, but I assume you need to own a well and a refinery.

I'm not bored with sailing, I guess a guy with 3000 HP strapped to the back of a boat probably would be .


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Over compensating...for something.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

I know it’s not PC here but blasting out to canyons, catching a big one and blasting home is a hoot. Totally adolescent, ruins the ecology, self indulgent but still a hoot. Get to do that so rarely it’s still fun. Can’t imagine actually owning one.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Just because someone is not frequently using their boat doesn't mean that have "given up" on sailing. As long as they own it and it's sea worthy.... it's there to enjoy when they can and want to.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

I guess it’s who you hang out with where you get your perspective. I’m in a small marina with about 100 slips , 85 of which are sailboats. Of the 85 sailboats 60 are 30 ft or less. 75% of the slips are empty on Saturday. Or Sunday at noon. The waters off the Severn have lots of sailboats on them. Usually there are 3 different racing associations racing every weekend. 

People have many choices what to do with their spare time. ( I am only looking at that group of weekend day sailors) . I don’t see the significant drop off you are saying. I did when the economy tanked which leads me to believe that’s economics is one of the if not the biggest determining factor. 

For many who use their boats like we do, I don’t see a big drop off. I can’t speak to the cruising community.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

SanderO said:


> Just because someone is not frequently using their boat doesn't mean that have "given up" on sailing. As long as they own it and it's sea worthy.... it's there to enjoy when they can and want to.


Bingo


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

Often, when this topic gets raised (why aren’t people using their boats?), there seems to be an element of holier than thou judgement going on. This is probably the first such thread where that feeling is not the most prevalent. Good to see.

Like most people with a boat, I have competing priorities in my life. I’d go sailing every time the weather cooperates. I’d like to spend a few weekends aboard and maybe do a week-long cruise. But I can’t. My wife doesn’t want to spend more than a few hours at a time aboard. We have friends and family to visit. I work for a living. My wife really works for a living. I got a concussion and had to lay low for about three weeks. In short, sometimes I don’t get to do what I want. So this summer, if I get to go on twelve day/evening sails, I’ll count myself lucky. 

I’m not bored with sailing; I Use my boat as much as I possibly can.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

I'm out on the boat during the week and it sometimes it feels the Harbor Master and I are the only people on boats. But, on the weekends there is a stream of boats heading in and out from midday on in good weather. I try and make sure I am situated on a mooring in nearby Port Jeff harbor by Friday morning. I enjoy watching the mooring field fill up with transient boaters out enjoying their weekend. Some stay for just a night and others take their place. It does get lonely on Sunday I tend to leave leave Monday mornings to avoid the bottlenecks in the channel that happen on Sunday afternoons. I think the boat use is concentrated on the weekends. i'm just glad I can now enjoy the boat anytime I want.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

mstern said:


> Often, when this topic gets raised (why aren't people using their boats?), there seems to be an element of holier than thou judgement going on. This is probably the first such thread where that feeling is not the most prevalent. Good to see.
> 
> Like most people with a boat, I have competing priorities in my life. I'd go sailing every time the weather cooperates. I'd like to spend a few weekends aboard and maybe do a week-long cruise. But I can't. My wife doesn't want to spend more than a few hours at a time aboard. We have friends and family to visit. I work for a living. My wife really works for a living. I got a concussion and had to lay low for about three weeks. In short, sometimes I don't get to do what I want. So this summer, if I get to go on twelve day/evening sails, I'll count myself lucky.
> 
> I'm not bored with sailing; I Use my boat as much as I possibly can.


This sounds about right. Work will come first... and other obligations like health and family. Not everyone would even want or can be aboard 24/7/365...

I like to avoid crowds and traffic and choose peace and calm except I prefer a decent breeze. As the Rolling Stones sing...

You can't always get what you want.
You can't always get what you want
But if you try sometimes you just might find
You just might find
You get what you need, oh yeah


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Would say you never know. A few years ago spent 4 days on the boat in a slip in barrington. Wife was down in Florida visiting her mom. Had chores so just stayed in the slip.
Boat next to me was a46’IP. Never moved all season. Later found out owner had kidney surgery which went south. Ultimately had his kidney removed. Usually it commuted to block every weekend. 
60’ wedding cake on the other side replete with under water lights and pirate flag was never occupied. Never saw the owner. Woke up one night to wiz. Heard Marvin Gay and the sounds of the slap and tickle of hide the salami. Perhaps not his wife as in the AM a disheveled honey was slipping coffee on the back porch by herself.
Kitted out X boat appeared late June then just sat. Yard monkey told me used for the Bermuda and Marblehead Halifax but otherwise owner was on his sport fish. Then left on delivery for the race weeks in Caribbean with a captain. 
50 something sport fish 4 down from me seemed to get little use. Heard deep rumble at 4AM. Saw it leave. It was back by 9:30am with owner and his son dressed to leave for work.
Shannon ketch at the start of the finger just sat. Then disappeared. Found out it was their summer home in Maine. They kept it in Barrington until they were ready to leave. Only interested in setting it up while in RI.
So to the casual eye these boats were not used much. But the back story would say otherwise.
We sail constantly while in the Caribbean. When north boat sits a lot. Time is spent with family, friends, land based activities. Although the boat sees 5-7000 miles a year most isn’t during the summer months when our finger pier neighbors would notice it. This is true even for many non long term cruisers. Wouldn’t jump to conclusions.


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## Horace74 (Oct 31, 2016)

I agree with the many of the posters here in that we sail when we want to sail. We are still fairly new to sailing so the novelty has definitely not worn off. However, there are other things we enjoy doing so we do those things as well. We may take the boat out 2 weekends in a row then we may not sail for 3 or 4 weekends depending on our schedule and of course the schedule of our teenage daughter and her sports and other activities. We enjoy owning the boat because it is there when we want to use it.


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## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

On the concept of boredom, I get antsy sitting still, but actually I've found that it's very therapeutic to get away from everything -- noise, people, electronics -- and force myself to slow down, relax, and just sit and stare out at nothing for an hour or so. Sometimes I'll have some background music, but even that is too distracting at times. I've found that my boat is the perfect platform for getting to this place, with the wide open views and lack of man-made stimuli. It sounds silly saying it, but honestly it is nourishment for my soul. I feel more complete and happier for days after time like this on the water. I guess it's some amateur type of meditation for me.

Here's a pic of what I stared at as the sun went down a few nights ago. Obviously, we were not sailing. For me, at this point in my life -- age 40, married, one kid, busy career -- time on the water is less and less about sailing or doing anything productive, and much more about unwinding and connecting with the natural world. I am confident that this aspect of boating will never get boring for me, and the reason why I will always have to own a boat.



> https://www.sailnet.com//imgur.com/a/Nci9rVW


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

My observation wasn't boats that sat and looked like they never moved, more of an observation of boats that haven't moved so long they were black with mildew, lines so crusty/old they were cracking, and hatchboards that were caved in, and cockpit and sole filling with rainwater.

But more pointedly, boredom with sailing itself.

I love a cruise. I would love to take a several day excursion. I mostly just daysail. 
Each of the above I still find as fun as the next.

There was a time in my life when I got bored of sailing. For the life of me I can't remember why. I went several years when I would have rolled my eyes if I were offered to go sail. I was in my 20s.

I am a 48 yo who learned to sail, truly sail, at age 10? but have been on my boats going back to when I could barely walk (sailboats). I (re)discovered sailing at age 30, buying a 14 foot centerboard boat, then in many ways rediscovered it again when I went to my own keelboat (22 footer). Then I got into racing, and kind of (re)discovered it again.

I now want easier (roller furler), more comfy (head and maybe a space to take 2 or 3 others out without banging knees), and bigger, because I've sailed bigger and its a different challenge for me.

I worry though. I worry that I too will get bored with the "challenge" that is sailing. Invested in a large boat that is more of a money pit than a hobby. I have always written off the cost of a boat, meaning I never expect to get anything out of the price of a boat except the enjoyment within, so if I have to give it away to get rid of it, then so be it... Ironically I've always about broken even with my original purchase (even though the thousands I soak into it after initial purchase are always lost).

My concern of sailing boredom is not at all a condemnation of others as much as a concern that I may too someday do the same.
Again I get, health issues, financial, or life obligations. Surely that accounts for at least 50% of what I am seeing, but I doubt all of it.

As for those that believe there are as many as ever out sailing. I beg to differ. Maybe as many as were 10 years ago, but certainly not as 30/40 years ago. A quick lookup of how many (sail)boats are for sale can easily prove my point, by far the largest group are the mid 1970s to the mid 1980s. Arguably the luxury tax on boats, and gas crisis, and the shear ridiculousness of interest rates of the late 70s early 80s should have been a roadblock to such large numbers of sailboat owners, but it wasn't. Maybe the 90s owners held onto their boats, and I am wrong.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

SailingUphill said:


> .....
> 
> As for those that believe there are as many as ever out sailing. I beg to differ. Maybe as many as were 10 years ago, but certainly not as 30/40 years ago. A quick lookup of how many (sail)boats are for sale can easily prove my point, by far the largest group are the mid 1970s to the mid 1980s. Arguably the luxury tax on boats, and gas crisis, and the shear ridiculousness of interest rates of the late 70s early 80s should have been a roadblock to such large numbers of sailboat owners, but it wasn't. Maybe the 90s owners held onto their boats, and I am wrong.


I think this reasoning is flawed. Plastic boats don't disappear. They may become unusable from neglect... but that's from lots and long neglect.

So there are so many boats around... no where to put them. Mooring field where I moor is filled as are all the close marinas that I pass. Yards seem pretty empty so I presume all the assets are floating... and yes many are for sailed and many ARE being sailed.... some a lot and a lot a little.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I need quite a bit of variety in my sailing to keep me entertained. Which is one reason a keelboat in a slip wasn't working out for me. Same old routine, same old sailing area every time. It had to be blowing like stink to be much in the way of exciting, and even then the biggest risk was breaking something expensive.

Offshore passage making feels like a prison sentence to me. To me it feels like driving on the freeway with cruise control on and the windows rolled up. Definitely the most efficient way to get from a to b, but for the raw experience of "driving" give me a 250 cc enduro and some single track, or even a Vespa in a trendy down town neighbourhood over cruise control on the freeway in a Cadilac.

I was boatless for about 10-12 years from the time I stopped sailing my Fireball in me early 20s until I got my Grampian 30 in my early 30s and I didn't really miss sailing at all, was doing other stuff.

Now (in my 40s) find the best way for me to stay entertained is to a) car top or trailer so I can reach interesting destinations. B) by keeping boats small and cheap they are easily liquidated and replaced when I feel like a different flavour. I usually have about 4 or 5 on the go at any given time so I can wake up saturday morning, go out to the yard and select the best boat for the; trip, weather, company and my mood.

Also, I find some kind of racing brings a lot to boat ownership as it gives me identifiable goals to work towards.

Of course, everybody has different preferences and those change over time, but this is my current preference.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

A it’s striking how different sailors are. On passage there’s always something to do. Be it planning after downloading weather, getting through the activities of daily living (cooking, cleaning, eating,drinking, hygiene, monitoring (fuel, water, electricity etc.). Then there’s the actual sailing. That’s just magical. Unlike the doing the best you and your boat can while dodging obstacles above and below the water you actually get the time and constant wind to sail at your polar. 
There’s something truly mystical about being in mile deep+ water with nothing on the horizon. It’s a transcendental experience. Just the “natural”noises of the boat and natural environment. 
Perhaps after 24 hours with the engine on it gets old but fortunately unlike coastal that’s pretty rare. Have never been bored on passage. Over stimulated yes. Under stimulated no. 
Have done a fair number of days on passage. No two the same. None without some problem to solve and some moments of joy. 
Like with everything what you bring to it is what you get back. You bring the boat, preparation, knowledge, attitude and yourself. The sea hands you the rest.
For me it’s the difference between making love and having sex.


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

1. Cost of Operation. Disposable income in the US is visibly & rapidly diminishing for most of the US middle class - many reasons: wage stagnation, rising (state/local, etc.) taxation, increased cost of healthcare insurance (+38% average since the ACA) etc. etc. etc. Not only sailing is decreasing but also most 'outdoor' participation activities/sports - RVs, skiing, 'hot rodding', 4X4-wheeling, etc. etc. 

2. The declining 'purchasing power' of the US dollar - now down to ~4¢ in comparison to a 1971 'dollar'. 
2a. 'True' technical inflation (price of goods and services) .... reported by some independent inflation trackers (Chapwood Index, etc.) at 8-10% per year (especially near the large US cities). 

3. Sailing, generally for the past 30-40 years, was targeted by middle age folks ... who are now retiring or becoming 'older'. There seems to be a dearth of younger folks entering into sailing in comparison to only 30 years ago. 
3a. Sailboat racing, even on a social club/'fun' basis, is in serious decline. Eg. Boat racing on the Upper Ches. in the 1980s had perhaps 15+ racing fleets on a weekend; now maybe 3 and not on a regular basis. Most marinas on the Upper Ches. are at ~80-85% occupancy; 30 years ago there was a 2-3 yr. 'waiting list'. 

4. Entry level in most outdoor sporting activities are now 'much more expensive'; and perhaps, not enough 'entry level' equipment is available at reasonable prices are available. (Example - snow skiing was saved and reenergized by the advent of 'snowboarding' which is much much cheaper to equip than traditional skiing.)


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Arcb said:


> Of course, everybody has different preferences and those change over time, but this is my current preference.


This IS the money quote. Anything repeated can be boring. Coastal cruising in areas like Maine offers so much to see it's hard to get bored.

Racing can be boring or thrilling or both.

Most sailors like the groove of sailing... and experience in different environments. Tourist thrills depend on where you tour and what sort of experiences ... float your boat... pun intended.

Most mid size boats that one can live in with some manner of comfort can do all sorts of sailing.


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## Horace74 (Oct 31, 2016)

RichH said:


> 1. Cost of Operation. Disposable income in the US is visibly & rapidly diminishing for most of the US middle class - many reasons: wage stagnation, rising (state/local, etc.) taxation, increased cost of healthcare insurance (+38% average since the ACA) etc. etc. etc. Not only sailing is decreasing but also most 'outdoor' participation activities/sports - RVs, skiing, 'hot rodding', 4X4-wheeling, etc. etc.
> 
> 2. The declining 'purchasing power' of the US dollar - now down to ~4¢ in comparison to a 1971 'dollar'.
> 2a. 'True' technical inflation (price of goods and services) .... reported by some independent inflation trackers (Chapwood Index, etc.) at 8-10% per year (especially near the large US cities).
> ...


There is definitely a generational difference when it comes to sailing as my wife and I have noticed that most of the people at our marina are much older than we are. Also, we used to crew for a boat in the Southern Chesapeake Bay races and there was constant chatter about the decline of the sport and how "young" people were simply not interested in sailing.

I don't know that the reasons are all economic as we have noticed that there are people who sail who are not at all wealthy and there are many levels of boat/marina that people can get in to if they are interested in sailing. I think the issue is how younger people with children don't have the time to commit to sailing because of the activities/sports of the kids on the weekends. Many people complain about kids today being over-scheduled but that's not going to change any time soon. Golf is also in decline because it takes time, usually on the weekends, to play.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

I think it is quite natural as one ages to change ones dreams, goals and desires. I certainly have. Some of that comes from previous experiences and some of it comes from desiring more comfort as one gets older. I don't have the same plans and I don't sail and cruise the way I did when I was younger. For example for years I seriously thought about taking my boat south for the winter with a goal to visit Fort Jefferson in the Dry Tortugas. Then I started thinking about the logistics, time required and equipment I might need to add. I thought about the time spent on the ICW which might be boring after awhile. Then there was the issue of the house being unoccupied for a half year. I scrapped those plans and instead booked a six day charter out of Key West to make the trip. I enjoyed that very much. I got to do the things I wanted to do. Like visit and snorkel around Loggerhead Key. After a few days there I had satisfied my goal. I'm glad I did not pursue my original plans. IMO there is more than one way to accomplish ones dreams on the water and you can also avoid becoming bored. The important thing is to not have any regrets and be content.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

outbound said:


> There's something truly mystical about being in mile deep+ water with nothing on the horizon. It's a transcendental experience. Just the "natural"noises of the boat and natural environment.
> Perhaps after 24 hours with the engine on it gets old but fortunately unlike coastal that's pretty rare. Have never been bored on passage. Over stimulated yes. Under stimulated no.
> Have done a fair number of days on passage. No two the same. None without some problem to solve and some moments of joy.
> Like with everything what you bring to it is what you get back. You bring the boat, preparation, knowledge, attitude and yourself. The sea hands you the rest.
> For me it's the difference between making love and having sex.


I hear that. I still have plans to do a single handed cruise around Long Island. Far enough away from land so I don't see it anywhere. Did it once with a friend as crew would like to do it again alone. I'd stay out as long as I want and go as far as I want.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

2 years ago which is almost four years since I sold my boat I helped a friend take his very small 30-foot German built whatever boat down to Greenpoint Worton Creek. I kind of thought I'd get to doing some sailing but that was the last time I was there, he's not used it! he's not done anything with it except pay the bill, put it in, take it out. 

This is one of the reasons I sold my boat, not that I didn't know how to use it but I knew I wasn't going to sail much because as I got older everything became more and more difficult, things that were second nature, now became major projects.. fortunately I still love to build and restore small things that fit in my basement.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Have fun Denise. My attitude toward aging has shifted with age. Having dinner with a couple in their 80s on Thursday. We finally met them in Grenada after repetitively seeing their Amel in multiple harbors starting in Antigua. A sistership we know is a live aboard for another couple of 80 year old we see time to time.
So as long as my brain works and I can hobble around hope to be cruising in one form or another for some time to come. 😀


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

mbianka said:


> For example for years I seriously thought about taking my boat south for the winter with a goal to visit Fort Jefferson in the Dry Tortugas. Then I started thinking about the logistics, time required and equipment I might need to add. I thought about the time spent on the ICW which might be boring after awhile. Then there was the issue of the house being unoccupied for a half year. I scrapped those plans and instead booked a six day charter out of Key West to make the trip. I enjoyed that very much.


Last winter flew down to Cuba for 15 days. Selected a package that included unlimited use of the resorts Hobie 15s. Fantastic sailing.

This coming winter car topping down to the Keys for 3 weeks. 2 families, 2 cars. 8 people, 4 boats.

Would need to waste my entire 4 weeks annual vacation just to get to these places on a keel boat. Much of it on autopilot, running the diesel inboard any time the VMG dropped below 5 knots to stay on schedule. Then my boat would be stuck down there until I accumulated another 4 weeks vacation. No thanks


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

Arcb said:


> Last winter flew down to Cuba for 15 days. Selected a package that included unlimited use of the resorts Hobie 15s. Fantastic sailing.
> 
> This coming winter car topping down to the Keys for 3 weeks. 2 families, 2 cars. 8 people, 4 boats.
> 
> Would need to waste my entire 4 weeks annual vacation just to get to these places on a keel boat. Much of it on autopilot, running the diesel inboard any time the VMG dropped below 5 knots to stay on schedule. Then my boat would be stuck down there until I accumulated another 4 weeks vacation. No thanks


Sounds like you made the right plan. I found it interesting this young couple sailed there and were glad to leave after dealing with the hassle of even simple things like being able to get water:


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Everyone is motivated by their dreams and confined by what they view as their realities. Some are not confined by schedules beyond weather. Telecommute, consult in breaks, inherit, invest, sabbatical, retirement. Whatever it is you see everything from couples with infants to old dust farters doing passages and enjoying their travels.
One size doesn’t fit all and some don’t enjoy the cruising lifestyle even when there’s no time or economic constrains. That’s fine they shouldn’t do it. 
Perhaps at some point you won’t be time constrained. If so you might be surprised that living on a boat and bopping around time to time is rather enjoyable.
We had the opportunity to sail the south coast of Cuba with the SDR and declined. Could stock up bypass Haiti/the Dominican, have enough fuel, food and make water that activities of daily living would be a non issue. Still, as an American, at present it’s too much hassle. Want to dive that coast. Hopefully will get to it sometime. 
Our views are different.
When in the keys I’m on a motorboat. I want to fish.
Engine goes on not do to schedules. Schedules kill. It goes on because there’s no wind and wallowing around is no fun. 
AP or windvane does 95% or greater of the steering. That’s day sailing and passage. Only hand steered in races when race rules required it. Hand steer in weather and channels. View steering as boring, restricts you to one place, and compared to the other things involved in running a boat requires the least amount of skill.
Different gestalt. All good.


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

I am mostly amazed that I got a real conversation going on this topic without it devolving into politics or elitism of on type of sailing over another.

What is ironic is every person seems to have a bite of the why boats sit, and where boredom comes into play (or rather more likely lack of interest).


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

mbianka said:


> Sounds like you made the right plan. I found it interesting this young couple sailed there and were glad to leave after dealing with the hassle of even simple things like being able to get water:
> Is Sailing Communist Cuba Worth the Trouble? | S03E49 - YouTube


Fore contrast or comparison, this is a little vid I shot sailing in Cuba. Managed to convince my wife to let the boat rip while I filmed (she handled main, jib and tiller). Kids were at a nice day care area (which we thoroughly checked out before releasing).


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

Arcb said:


> Fore contrast or comparison, this is a little vid I shot sailing in Cuba. Managed to convince my wife to let the boat rip while I filmed (she handled main, jib and tiller). Kids were at a nice day care area (which we thoroughly checked out before releasing).


Hard to get bored on a Hobie sailing along like that.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

outbound said:


> View steering as boring, restricts you to one place, and compared to the other things involved in running a boat requires the least amount of skill.


I find hand steering large cruising style keel boats boring too. In fact, I wasn't really getting much of a thrill out of sailing that style in general. Which is why I sold mine and bought a sharpie and a beach cat instead.

Only some one who really enjoyed unexpected swims would spend much time in AP on any of my boats


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Have a small (14’) carbon Whitehall with a sailing rig. No ballast. Tiller in one hand with sheet in the other. Better not need to scratch yourself in a gust. Understand that thrill. Have ocean raced tris where you know your doing it wrong if you’re in single digits. 
Still there’s a majesty to a good boat with a bone in its teeth. The harmony of all the rags drawing just right and thundering through mares tails sets me on fire. A different experience but just as intense.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I know the feel. Sailed as volunteer crew on squares in my teens and early 20s. Bounty style non profit type boats. Even professionally skippered a couple in my 30s. Owned back to back keel boats for about 10 years. But some how woke up one day and wanted something else. I think thats what Uphill was asking. 

Does the feeling wear thin? Does the monumental task of maintenance start to outweigh the pleasure. Does the cost not seem worth it any more. For me, the answer is yes. I lost interest in that style of sailing. For many the answer will be no. Some will always enjoy it and it will always be worth it and thats fantastic.

For me about every 6 months I try to convince my wife to go even smaller, but for her having a cabin is a must. So the compromise is, the family boat has a cabin, but when I get free time to myself (or just my son and I), we go with something sportier.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I’ll bet a big part of getting bored is one’s sailing grounds. Any sailboat can only get so far, especially as the majority are weekend sailors. I find ourselves rotating between heading out to the islands, heading up or down the shore and staying in the Bay. Countless options, never get bored. 

To some extent boat speed matters here too. We find MVY to be fairly easy to reach. I know guys who plan to make 5 kts max who would never head out for a weekend. Again, that means seeing the same stuff more often. 

With a cabinless day sailor, destination makes no difference, as one is generally not going anywhere, or trailering it to wherever they want to go.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Jump on a moth. You’d be all smiles. Or if you want the bride with you the Corsairs are a hoot and quite livable. Shared a house while in training with a guy doing his dissertation on butterflies. He went on to own a multihull dealership. He loaned a Corsair to me and the admiral for a week. Had the rig singing with a rooster chasing us but she was near tears. Spent the rest of the week with just the main up. Before this boat when deciding on my “last” boat looked at gunboats. She said she didn’t want something that required that degree of attention while underway. She’s my watchstander. Was ok with a outremer but not a gun. She said the Outbound was pretty and spoke to her heart. She doesn’t mind life on the slant. She hates docking. Still gets wired up when we need to come in. She said we don’t need the space and doesn’t like not being able to see the whole boat. But she puts up with passages and living aboard.
It’s the living on a boat in new places I’d miss with small boats. The sailing is a joy, don’t get me wrong. But it’s only a part of the experience. It’s so different not being on a schedule waking up in paradise and being able to chill. Yes, there are major hassles maintaining a boat. But they are real, physical issues not the crap that’s all in your or another persons mind when living on land.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> I'll bet a big part of getting bored is one's sailing grounds. Any sailboat can only get so far, especially as the majority are weekend sailors. I find ourselves rotating between heading out to the islands, heading up or down the shore and staying in the Bay. Countless options, never get bored.
> 
> .....


Well some locations have MORE options....but they are not countless. The first time or two at a new place is a blast... after that less so and then it become comfy and familiar... which makes it a decent destination.

YES you need a good location with many options... and decent range.

AND it's a balance in where your boat is moored or slipped... and how far / long it takes to get to it.

I love the sailing in ME.... but it too far to drive to... to keep the boat there.

How long/far would you drive to get to your boat? That too is the question!


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

We like peace and beauty and so finding locations to visit/anchor is not all that easy because LIS, SE is so crowded with boats and sea side development.

We anchored in Coldsprings Harbor this past weekend and it was perfect... Were only a handful of boats anchored and one tiny yacht club... no jet skiis and only a few open boats came thru. It is gorgeous and peaceful. DON'T GO THERE PLEASE!

We also like what Newport has to offer... which is the reverse of Coldsprings Harbor.

But most destinations are sort of in between these two.


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## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

It is interesting how different people use and appreciate different boats. For me, at this point in my life, a small "sporty" dinghy gets boring after an hour. I've sailed small boats all my life, and love that I learned to sail as a young kid on first a sunfish, then a laser, then a Tanzer 16, with basically a nudge off the beach by my Dad and a sink-or-swim philosophy. Those are amazing memories and I sailed the crap outta those boats well into my teen years.

But, that just doesn't really interest me much any more. We've been on vacation in various places where I've had the chance to sail a little hobie cat or laser off the beach, and after about an hour, I'm kind of like, ok what's next. I'd rather have a small boston whaler, like we did in Exuma, where we spent entire days exploring secluded beaches, sand bars and snorkeling spots.

Again, I find this to be an interesting discussion. It shows that there are many different ways and reasons why people own and use boats, and I think it's helpful for people to give some thought to what aspects of boating/sailing/cruising bring them enjoyment, so that they can tailor their choice of boat and water access to maximize those things. For me, as I noted above, at this point in my life, it's all about getting to a quiet place on the water for some relaxation, and so having a boat in the water ready to go at any time, in a marina that is 20 minutes from my house, with easy access to quiet remote waters, is very ideal for my goals.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

When I was still working kept the boat in Plymouth MA. Ptown was just 19 miles away. Everything else was longer than a weekend except for the other towns on the south shore.
So would sail east for a day. Then west. Sounds ridiculous looking back but being alone and getting off the shelf was restorative. 
People sail for different reasons. None need justification. If our current program gets to be a burden would give thought to actually putting a boat in Plymouth and pay the taxes. It would be a small traditional boat like a small Morris, a pilot or BCC. Don’t need to go fast. Don't mind doing brightwork. Don’t care what others think. Enjoy being alone centered, walking in beauty as the Navaho say, in the glory of nature. Need no more stimulation than that.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Furthest I kept my boat was 90 minutes away. Found that to be a total pain. I like having the boat close. Current set up is we have a seasons launch pass at local conservation area which is 3/4 of a mile away. Sailing area is a decent size (30 miles long) but boxed in by 22 ft bridges, which necessitates a very low mast. Nearest real body of water to me is Lake Ontario 2+ hours away.

We have been talking more and more about getting a place on the water with a dock, pricey but I think it would be nice.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

For people who like in say NYC or the close in suburbs they mostly have to drive a bit to their boats. Sailing close in to the city is not all that great. Further done the sound you moor the better the sailing is. But moored out in the east end is a 2-3hr drive/bus/or train ride. But sailing options are great and it really feels like you're far from home.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

A walk of 15’ for the small boats. A flight of 2k to get back to the home afloat. Keep a trailer if I want a small boat somewhere else. So far not used except for storage.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

The Chesapeake has so many creeks and rivers to anchor in, we never get bored. 

You can anchor in solitude or with others. 

With in 25 miles from our marina we have anchored in over 150 different places over the last 5 years according to our ships log. That’s 30 different anchorages a year. Many years even more. If we wanted to we could avoid anchoring in the same place each season.


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## Horace74 (Oct 31, 2016)

We drive an hour and fifteen minutes to our boat but it's amazing to me how many people at our marina drive sooooooo much farther. My slip neighbor drives 4 1/2 hours to get to his boat and there are a few people who drive even farther. It seems that the biggest factor on this thread is time and that infinite question of how we spend it.


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

If my boat was more than an hour away, I’d seriously be rethinking the whole boat ownership thing. Now, my boat is docked 40 minutes away from my house, and 15 minutes from my office. I’ve got enough issues with finding enough time to sail without adding proximity to that list.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

For years I moored the boat out in the East End of LIS... Gardiners Bay area when I lived in Greenwich Village in Manhattan. It was never less than a 2 hr drive. I was able because of my work's "flex time" (self employed) to avoid rush hr traffic most of the time. I learned to used the drive time to enjoy conversation or music... But I would have preferred a much shorter drive. Day sailing was not sensible.
I loved the area and so on balance I am ok with a long drive for better sailing region.

Last 8 years we have moored about an hour's dive from where we live. I can make it door to dock in 56 minutes with no traffic! But is generally about an hour 15. And can be worse with lots of traffic. The distance permits day trips to the boat for work or sailing. Sailing area is not as interesting as the East end.

Further west or on the CT shore such as Stanford shrinks the drive time to 1/2 hr and the sailing in the west end of the sound stinks... for multiple reasons.

I will likely move back east next year... and probably spend less time getting to the boat because of no day trips!


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## oldlaxer1 (Mar 27, 2008)

We moved onto a '53 Hatteras and keep the sailboat at the same marina in Baltimore. I'd like to move the sailboat closer to the bay for better sailing but having two slips at the marina affords me two parking spaces...that's key for living aboard. As it is, we are doing a lot more day sails which, while not as exciting as overnighters, it is still sailing and we love it. Being that the commute from "home" to sailboat is a 5 minute walk we can drop everything and go if the winds are blowing (which we tend to do much more often.)


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

oldlaxer1 said:


> We moved onto a '53 Hatteras and keep the sailboat at the same marina in Baltimore. I'd like to move the sailboat closer to the bay for better sailing but having two slips at the marina affords me two parking spaces...that's key for living aboard. As it is, we are doing a lot more day sails which, while not as exciting as overnighters, it is still sailing and we love it. Being that the commute from "home" to sailboat is a 5 minute walk we can drop everything and go if the winds are blowing (which we tend to do much more often.)


The car problem...


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

Not sayin' why...










If you look at the graph, it's the same old guys (us) owning boats. The bulk of new sailboat sales are either charter or very small boats. That's the new market.

The average age is climbing rapidly. I think it is simply because tastes change. My daughter like sailing, but it's not and investment or life style she and her husband would chose.

It does not bode well for marine writers, either, or at least not the sort of how-to stuff I like. That has always been oriented toward sailors that were in the learning phase, which requires new sailors. Fortunately, many of us are in this because we are always learning. That's a great part of the charm of sailing.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

pdqaltair said:


> Not sayin' why...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Interesting informative graph.

I purchase Shiva New in 1985 when I was 38 yrs old. My intense learning and use was in the first 10+ years. I did most of my offshore work in years 6-12 of ownership. After that it has been local coastal cruising... and maintenance/upgrades.


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## DinghyRace (May 31, 2019)

That graph shows exactly what I would have expected, without even seeing the data. My participation is mostly one-design racing, and in some older classes, and I see so few people below age 50 participating. I have always attributed this to the rise of the dual-career household, in my own mind.

Without one spouse home during the week, families have to cram the entire week’s chores and family time into just two days, which doesn’t usually leave the required time for boating. Compound that with the increasing rise in structured kids’ activities (soccer, gymnastics, etc.), and most parents probably spend the few hours they’re not mowing the lawn or cleaning the house, chauffeuring their kids to activities. There’s a whole other social study, there, but I’ll refrain from the thread tangent. 

Always trying to drum up new crew for my local club (Thistles & Scot fleets always need crew), I run into another thing, an assumed too-high barrier to entry. This is another cultural shift, it seems folks used to just assume they could do anything the next guy was doing, they’d learn along the way. Now, maybe fueled by better information technology, people see all of the ugly nuance before they just get out there and get wet, and maybe get pre-overwhelmed. They seem to think the only way to sail is if you grew up doing it. You wouldn’t believe the number of times I’ve had to tell someone, “I had a first time, too, you’ll be fine.” Or, “no, you don’t need prior experience to crew.”


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

Usually I never leave my home port mooring on a holiday weekend here in the US. This year I decided to sail the three nautical miles to a nearby Harbor rent a mooring and just stay there for four days. I left a few days early to avoid the crowds. It was a nice 3 hour sail despite the wind on the nose one tack and never got bored.  I had a mooring reservation for Friday through Tuesday. Since this was late in the afternoon on Thursday I decided to borrow a mooring from the north west Mooring field which is usually only used on the weekends by the moorings owners . Hundreds of empty moorings available during the week. Usually I may be only one of three or four boats in the area. This time there were at least 15 on Moorings and on anchor nearby. Seems like many more boaters want to get their last sails in before their unofficial summer ends. Expect even bigger crowds this weekend as people realize their season with the boat is coming to an end here in the northeast.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

DinghyRace said:


> Now, maybe fueled by better information technology, people see all of the ugly nuance before they just get out there and get wet, and maybe get ore-overwhelmed.


I think there is an incredible amount of disinformation on the internet about sailing; facebook, youtube, forums. They all seem to promote the idea that bigger is better for sailing. I have seen things go so far as to suggest its unsafe or barbaric to coastal cruise on less than 40 feet, its not cruising unless there is a minimum one transoceanic, its impossible to take an enjoyable 2 week vacation with a family of 4 on a 23 ft boat etc. And its all total BS, but unless you know its BS, it would be easy to beleive some of it is true.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Unfortunate truth is for coastal or offshore cruising bigger is better. Safer, faster, more comfortable. Have cruised stuff as small as 25’ so that seems to be borne out by statistics and personal experience.

Think as we move into the artificial intelligence and automated world one of the big issues will be meaningful employment. Working serves two functions. Reimbursement and an engaging activity that allows social activity and demands attention. So would not be surprised by a resurgence of sailing and other outdoor activities as hours engaged in work activities recedes.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

I downsized a few years ago because I was tired of big and unresponsive. A bicycle is more fun than a bus.

But I may switch back in 10 years. Who knows. Or I may go smaller. I think that is more likely.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Finally! where I'll be this weekend only took two years for my friend to get around to it!!


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

There is no correct answer because people are different with different needs, different finances, different time, different locations. As much as a love to sail... I doubt I would sail a small boat... most day sailing... not an interest of mine. A boat as to be or approach a livable in size. More space bigger boats seems too much work, cost and worry only to go a bit faster and have more people aboard in comfort (don't even want that!... but others do). And as we get older things change.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

For coastal. Bigger boat, deeper draft, forces you further offshore and progressively eliminates more safe channels, anchorages, hidey holes, bar crossing. The deeper the draft the further offshore you are forced and the more escape options are eliminated. Bigger boats need more room to tack and are forced to motor in progressively more situations. Bigger boats cost more at marinas and are less affordable for more people. 

There is no unfortunate truth. Just personal preference.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

There are centerboarders with AVS suitable for offshore work, beachable, and well over 50’. Size, seaworthiness and draft are not closely correlated. Look at the various Al French boats in current production.
Just saying....


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

The old boats = opportunity for many.

Some operate on the outer ring. Thats where they live. Why not go Ti hull and do it really right?


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I am just saying any "better" equation that doesn't take into consideration such things as; cost to purchase, cost to maintain, maneuverability in confined waters, trailerability, draft above the water, draft below the water, crew size, ease of sailing, fun, environmental and social concerns is incomplete at best.

You couldn't give me a 40 ft boat for coastal gunkhole cruising. Well, you could, but I would sell it and buy something a little more nimble.


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## DinghyRace (May 31, 2019)

pdqaltair said:


> A bicycle is more fun than a bus.


For daysailing, definitely. Give me a Laser over any cruiser, every time.

But I wouldn't want to live on a Laser.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Here is a guy coastal cruising on a Laser 2. I guess if he gets 2 footitis he might move up to a DS17


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

All boats are a compromise regardless of design, age, size and even expense. All styles of sailing are as well. Regardless of which you pick there’s going to be something it doesn’t do well and something it does better then others. So like so many things in life it’s what you bring in to it that determines your enjoyment. 
Right now sitting on the front porch of the family N.H. hunting camp. No in door plumbing. Heat via wood. Simple Quonset hut with A frames attached. All I need or want. Enjoyment has nothing to do with expense nor brand nor how fancy. Everything to do with what you bring to it emotionally and skill set. 
Some need to change up all the time. Some need to explore something to the finest detail. Any style of sailing allows either mode. Experience the thousands of types of small boats or pick a design and explore all the possibilities of that design. 
Personally like the total immersion into one aspect of sailing (cruising/live aboard). Know I’ll never have the full skill set. Know I’ll never exhaust the possibilities. I’m good with that. Never bored.
Ben Franklin said “boredom is a sign of lack of intelligence “. Think that’s just harsh as it maybe the opposite. Intelligence may cause banal activities to not be adequately stimulating. However do think boredom is a result of the attitude you bring to an activity.


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## DinghyRace (May 31, 2019)

Arcb said:


> Here is a guy coastal cruising on a Laser 2. I guess if he gets 2 footitis he might move up to a DS17
> 
> Sailing adventure with laser 2. 1500Nm in Mediterranean sea. - YouTube


Yeah, I've watched his vids before. Oh, to be young, and single!

Getting back to the op, videos like the ones this guy is making is exactly what young would-be sailors need to see. It shows that sailing can be done on any level, at any budget. Bravo.


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## Horace74 (Oct 31, 2016)

DinghyRace said:


> That graph shows exactly what I would have expected, without even seeing the data. My participation is mostly one-design racing, and in some older classes, and I see so few people below age 50 participating. I have always attributed this to the rise of the dual-career household, in my own mind.
> 
> Without one spouse home during the week, families have to cram the entire week's chores and family time into just two days, which doesn't usually leave the required time for boating. Compound that with the increasing rise in structured kids' activities (soccer, gymnastics, etc.), and most parents probably spend the few hours they're not mowing the lawn or cleaning the house, chauffeuring their kids to activities. There's a whole other social study, there, but I'll refrain from the thread tangent.
> 
> Always trying to drum up new crew for my local club (Thistles & Scot fleets always need crew), I run into another thing, an assumed too-high barrier to entry. This is another cultural shift, it seems folks used to just assume they could do anything the next guy was doing, they'd learn along the way. Now, maybe fueled by better information technology, people see all of the ugly nuance before they just get out there and get wet, and maybe get pre-overwhelmed. They seem to think the only way to sail is if you grew up doing it. You wouldn't believe the number of times I've had to tell someone, "I had a first time, too, you'll be fine." Or, "no, you don't need prior experience to crew."


This is essentially what I was saying earlier. As a relatively young man with a teenage daughter, our sailing schedule is worked around her "activities". She isn't in a ton of things but between tennis and travel teams (which didn't exist 30 years ago) we are not really able to sail every weekend even if we wanted to.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I was not able to sail every weekend, when the kids were little. That's life, you need to raise the kids. 

By late in high school, the began to have their own independent weekend plans and mine were freed up a bit. Once they were off to college, we began to live aboard for extended weekends. Now, we do the same, but seriously avoid all other weekend obligations from May to Oct. I'll attend a funeral or close family wedding, but no birthday parties, showers, picnics, nothing. We tell all of our friends and family they are welcome to come spend a weekend with us aboard and virtually all do.

Sometimes, it gets a bit selfish, but it's a choice we've made. We get away with it, because most of our family are several hours away. It lowers expectations, if you're not in the same town (or state in our case). Most also understand that our boat is our summer home. Literally.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> I was not able to sail every weekend, when the kids were little. That's life, you need to raise the kids.
> 
> By late in high school, the began to have their own independent weekend plans and mine were freed up a bit. Once they were off to college, we began to live aboard for extended weekends. Now, we do the same, but seriously avoid all other weekend obligations from May to Oct. I'll attend a funeral or close family wedding, but no birthday parties, showers, picnics, nothing. We tell all of our friends and family they are welcome to come spend a weekend with us aboard and virtually all do.
> 
> Sometimes, it gets a bit selfish, but it's a choice we've made. We get away with it, because most of our family are several hours away. It lowers expectations, if you're not in the same town (or state in our case). Most also understand that our boat is our summer home. Literally.


This is a great description of the problem of getting quality sailing time as it relates to family and social commitments.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I don't seem to have scheduling conflicts with my kids. Kids are younger and wife stays at home full time, so those may be factors.

Usually take about 3 weeks vacation in the summer. Usually all boating. 

I pretty much need to book my summer vacation by April 1, usually taken in August. Kids activities simply are not scheduled during my vacation time. Kids summer activities are not scheduled on week ends either. 

Boat is generally launched at start of vacation, and taken out of the water at end of vacation. Result is, boat is usually only in the water for 3-4 weeks a year.

We also like to go to Florida for 2 or 3 weeks in the winter. Find car topping easier than trailering in the winter. Again, no kids activities during winter vacation. Figure they learn more camping in keys/everglades than they would in school any way.

Week ends, usually day sail on Sundays with my son so wife and daughter can do their thing. Again, prefer car topping for this application because of the variety of places we can go.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

SailingUphill said:


> My observation wasn't boats that sat and looked like they never moved, more of an observation of boats that haven't moved so long they were black with mildew, lines so crusty/old they were cracking, and hatchboards that were caved in, and cockpit and sole filling with rainwater.
> 
> But more pointedly, boredom with sailing itself.
> 
> ...


I'm surprised no one replied directly to this. It's got to be a feeling at least some of us have experienced.

I moved up to a larger boat at one point. As you say, a different challenge and the space and amenities to cruise with friends or family in comfort.

Once I took a poll and found that ~ 10-12 years was a common boat ownership period, after which we moved on to something different. Often bigger, sometimes smaller, but always different. Because sailing, like all of life, is nothing if there is not growth, and change is the lever. 10 years seems to be long enough to learn all about a boat, make changes you like, and exhaust what it can do for you.

My opinion is that whenever you feel your boat might fall into disuse, sell it. Buy something else, very different, either immediately or after a rest. But don't with that which is boring you.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

pdqaltair said:


> I'm surprised no one replied directly to this. It's got to be a feeling at least some of us have experienced.
> 
> I moved up to a larger boat at one point. As you say, a different challenge and the space and amenities to cruise with friends or family in comfort.
> 
> ...


I agree, you need to buy the boat that fits in to your current lifestyle. Don't try to hang on to the boat that used to fit, but no longer does.

My first boat was a Hotfoot 20 sport boat. At the time I was racing, either my boat or other people's boats 3 times a week year round. That's where I met my wife...she was crew on my boat.

Once my son came along we realized that it was NOT a good boat for small children, and that if we wanted to continue sailing we would need something a bit bigger and safer.

So that's what we did. We bought an old Santana 30 because I wanted something I could still race competitively. As it turned out I didnt race the boat much. It turned into the family cruiser, and was loaded down with all the trappings of that role. The boat served us well for many years, but I didn't use it nearly as much as I would have liked. Not only that, but my racing on OPBs also dried up, as my world now revolved around my son's on shore activities.

Now my son has graduated from high school and is more independent, so we are free to go sailing more. The old Santana wasn't doing it for us anymore, because we were both craving more speed and more creature comforts. At the same time, as we approach retirement we found ourselves in a comfortable financial position, so we bought ourselves Azura, the Jeanneau 39i.

This boat has definitely renewed both of our interest in sailing! Having heat and hot water has extended our cruising season significantly. While our old boat was tucked away for the winter by October, we already have weekends planned well into December. Not only that, but the additional speed of the bigger boat opens up many more destinations. Being equipped with proper ground tackle in an anchor locker with a windlass is also a novelty for us. This boat is our retirement dream boat, and once I actually retire we are looking forward to spending many weeks at a time cruising our coast.

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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

SchockT said:


> I agree, you need to buy the boat that fits in to your current lifestyle. Don't try to hang on to the boat that used to fit, but no longer does.


Ain't necessarily so.

When I made the decision to buy a boat... I had the notion that I would sail south to the Caribe or maybe further from LIS.

I didn't expect to have a wife/partner with me... so if I needed crew for a passage I would find them. I did... multiple times.

I bought a bought that I could sail... that could comfortable be shared by two couples or similar and be single handed. For one person it's more than spaceous and has all the creature comforts now... I added... refer, AP, heating... windlass, roller furling and so on.

As a single hander now with a loving landlubber wife we have no need for a larger boat and I've owned Shiva (Contest 36s) since 1985. Would I swap it for a similarly equipped 45' or larger? maybe not. Seems like more work, more expenses.

No need to start with a 20 something footer and move up 5 feet every few years. But you need to know yourself and what you want to do... and have vision.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

People don't go through the huge effort and expense to change their residence if their life changes a bit. Sure they may start in a small apartment and begin a family and have to move to a house or larger apartment and few couples will take on a large house a young newly weds. But envisioning a life / residence which will serve them and be flexible as things change is very common. It's also no uncommon to fil up a place with more possessions over time....and upgrade them as well when needs and budget and so forth align.

Anyone who gets into a boat that NEEDS crew is hostage to the idea of crew to use their boat. Sure if all they want to do is race and with crew... this is the deal. But that's a sailing niche.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

SanderO said:


> Ain't necessarily so.
> 
> When I made the decision to buy a boat... I had the notion that I would sail south to the Caribe or maybe further from LIS.
> 
> ...


OOOOOOPS

I bought a BOAT that I could sail


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Come at this from a slightly different angle. Due to work had a on call schedule. Even if not at work during those days needed to maintain 15 minute to at most 1/2 hour access to the ER. So during training raced. Mostly J boats. Then had a secession of small boats on a mooring I could take out on a summers evening or 1/2 a non call weekend day and still have family time.
It’s always been the ocean not the destination that appeals to me although it’s fun to see new places. So went halvies with another doc whose call schedule was opposite my own. That meant decreased expense and sharing maintenance chores. That allowed a run of boats big enough for Marion Bermuda and like races. I wasn’t home for Father’s Day for a number of years. Would do two vacations a year. One land based with the kids. One on the ocean. Occasionally would cruise with one of the kids. Often with the co-owner. 
Retired early. Got a psc34 to train the wife and make sure she liked boat life. Fortunately she did so after decades of fixing other peoples troubles on land and on prior peoples boats decided to make my own. Had the Outbound built for us. Wife said as long as she had a house even if we didn’t live in it much at all she was good with living on the boat. Some years it’s 4 months land 8 months boat. Others 6 and 6. Other than the dictates of insurance restrictions do what we want. 
Now have several distinct groups of friends. Fishing and hunting. Cruising. Motorcycle. General. Flip between activities (don’t have a bike at this time but still have the friends). Never bored. 
The experience of living on a boat long term is radically different than weekends and vacations. The rhythm of it is different. Kind of like the difference between coastal and ocean. At this point if I couldn’t get the rhythm of cruising/live aboard and had to go back to day sailing I’d probably get out of sailing all together. Just get a regulator or other balls to wall center console and go fishing.


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

pdqaltair said:


> 10 years seems to be long enough to learn all about a boat, make changes you like, and exhaust what it can do for you.


I must be on a hyper-accelerated timeline. My Capri 22 was 2009, my Capri 25 was 2011, my S2 7.9 was 2014, and my Wavelength was 2017, now ---- hmmmm.

To be honest I always wanted bigger boats, but the lake was the limitation, biggest boats we had on the lake had to be trailerable, and launchable ourselves. I've wanted a 30 something to single hand for quite a while. My wife is awesome outdoorsy, but isn't really into sailing. We enjoyed the heck out of vacation in the BVIs (twice) and our 2nd go around it was just her and I on a 35 footer. No doubt mooring is easier than docking single handed, but its still doable. Wife did all the driving for the moorings though, while I played deck-ape and snagged the pennant.

So maybe I am a sailboat malcontent. Looking back I loved each of my boats though they all had their strong points.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

As I've become older I have a lot of "I don't get it" perspective about things.

My friend has had his boat at Greenpoint Maryland worton Creek slightly over 2 years now it's the smallest 30 foot boat I've ever seen. 

Well, went down there this weekend, I got eaten alive by bugs and spiders we never did get out on the water. Lol

The boat is completely jammed up with junk inside so he started loading stuff on the decks. No room to sleep in the boat or on the boat, I slept in the back of my truck lol, 

Still getting eaten alive by bugs I left the next morning!

Along with other reasons not to do summer hot weather it seems; I'm apparently allergic to mosquito bites and wasn't feeling well. 

Anyhow, he calls me up "I need to get a bigger boat" says he. "I don't get it" says me. Lol


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

deniseO30 said:


> .....No room to sleep in the boat or on the boat, I slept in the back of my truck lol.....


That's one thing I've fully lost from my youth. I used to be able to sleep anywhere on anything. I could sleep, leaning on a rock holding a rifle, sitting up on a train seat commuting to work, curled up in any place, whether padded or not. No more. I need a proper bed.

Sorry to hear this trip didn't work out. If I recall, you were looking forward to going sailing with this friend. Perhaps that was another trip.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

It was one of those I should have known better proven to know I did know better lol
I didn't sleep a wink either!


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## Horace74 (Oct 31, 2016)

This is a very interesting thread and one I discussed with my wife last night. We are relatively new to sailing as this is only our third season with the boat, a San Juan 28. As a stated in an earlier post, we love to sail but we don't sail every weekend and we have other interests. The tricky part is thinking about our next and possibly last boat and the prospect of having to finance it. And, if we finance a boat we will probably feel more "pressure" to use the boat more often. Under that circumstance, I could see maybe losing some interest in it. I wonder how much do finances have to do with people losing interest in sailing??


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Horace74 said:


> ....if we finance a boat we will probably feel more "pressure" to use the boat more often......


All boat costs, maintenance, slip fees, etc, will cause this pressure. I have no problem with one financing their boat, assuming it's a responsible financial burden in one's budget. However, I caution one not to finance too much. One should be able to fire sale their boat at any time, in the event of an emergency or faced with the financial pressures of all the other expenses that may even justify a deep discount now, rather than incurring all the holding costs.

I don't know the right number. I'm sure it's not higher than 75% of value, however, value may decline after you buy. I'd say 50% would be a reasonably safe zone. To get rid of a boat quickly, I think you need to drop the price by at least 20% from what you think it's worth and that gives room for market declines since you bought it. It's always worth less than you think.


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## Horace74 (Oct 31, 2016)

Minnewaska said:


> All boat costs, maintenance, slip fees, etc, will cause this pressure.


We really don't feel the pressure of slip fees and maintenance. We just look at that as the basic costs of boat ownership whether you have a $10K boat or a $50K boat. The pressure would be in the recurring monthly payment of a boat mortgage. And, I'm wondering how many people get out of sailing because they don't see the cost being worth it relative to other things in life they also enjoy doing.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Horace74 said:


> We really don't feel the pressure of slip fees and maintenance. We just look at that as the basic costs of boat ownership whether you have a $10K boat or a $50K boat. The pressure would be in the recurring monthly payment of a boat mortgage. And, I'm wondering how many people get out of sailing because they don't see the cost being worth it relative to other things in life they also enjoy doing.


I don't think most see it the way you do. While I agree with you on your perspective over basic costs, the biggest pushback I hear is how the slip fees, winterization and commisioning costs are a large percent of boat value. If they aren't using the boat, it can be cheaper to take a discounted sale than hold onto it. Financing cost just exacerbate this percent of value issue.

On the other hand, I know lots of folks, both boat and airplane owners, who keep their unused toys for emotional reasons. I knew one guy that kept is small single engine airplane for 20 years after he lost his medical certification. He was literally never going to fly again, but it was his dream. These guys surely have no debt on these. Perhaps one could ironically argue that debt will force you to make the decision. That's probably just rationalization.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

The thing that bothers me the most at boat shows is the shear size of the boats. No wonder it is of no interest. Not enough emphasis on dinghies and small boats, the sort you really learn to sail on and which are fun for younger people. I learned on a beach cat, and at that age, tearing along at 15-20 knots was WAY more fun than wallowing at 6 knots and watching sunsets.

My daughter confirmed this. She was out on my big boat; the trips were fun, but the sailing was dull. She borrowed dinghies (Laser etc) and loved them. Then I got the F-24. She liked that, sailing at double digits. But still a lot for a kid just out of college. 

Last weekend we sailed on a Prindle 19 (one of the fastest beach cats). That suited her. We were literally sailing at 3x the speed of slower boats. Pointing high too, when we wanted to. I'm old now, but I kinna want the Prindle now too!


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

Horace74 said:


> This is a very interesting thread and one I discussed with my wife last night. We are relatively new to sailing as this is only our third season with the boat, a San Juan 28. As a stated in an earlier post, we love to sail but we don't sail every weekend and we have other interests. The tricky part is thinking about our next and possibly last boat and the prospect of having to finance it. And, if we finance a boat we will probably feel more "pressure" to use the boat more often. Under that circumstance, I could see maybe losing some interest in it. I wonder how much do finances have to do with people losing interest in sailing??


We are in the situation you describe, where we moved from on old boat, similar to yours,that was long ago paid for, into a much newer, much bigger boat that we financed. While we do feel like we should be using it as much as possible to justify the cost, we also WANT to use it more, because it is so much faster and more comfortable than our old one. Granted, we have only had her for a year, but she has renewed our interest in sailing and we are excited to explore further afield than we could on out old boat.

As for the comments about big boats vs performance boats, the beauty of dinghies and beach cats is they are cheap. There is no reason you cant have both. Personally, I get my performance sailing fix by racing on other people's boats, and I look forward to using our cruising boat as a mothership when we take my friend's race boat to regattas! Best of both worlds!

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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

pdqaltair said:


> The thing that bothers me the most at boat shows is the shear size of the boats. No wonder it is of no interest. Not enough emphasis on dinghies and small boats, the sort you really learn to sail on and which are fun for younger people. I learned on a beach cat, and at that age, tearing along at 15-20 knots was WAY more fun than wallowing at 6 knots and watching sunsets.


What? You mean people really don't need a boat with two helm positions to enjoy sailing?


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Those P19s are cool boats. I have known folks to make 200 mile daily runs in them. Masts seem like pretty big job for one guy though, unless kept in the water.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

mbianka said:


> What? You mean people really don't need a boat with two helm positions to enjoy sailing?


Perhaps not, but the big open cockpit that the twin helms give you sure is nice!

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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

pdqaltair said:


> The thing that bothers me the most at boat shows is the shear size of the boats. No wonder it is of no interest. Not enough emphasis on dinghies and small boats, the sort you really learn to sail on and which are fun for younger people. I learned on a beach cat, and at that age, tearing along at 15-20 knots was WAY more fun than wallowing at 6 knots and watching sunsets.
> 
> My daughter confirmed this. She was out on my big boat; the trips were fun, but the sailing was dull. She borrowed dinghies (Laser etc) and loved them. Then I got the F-24. She liked that, sailing at double digits. But still a lot for a kid just out of college.
> 
> Last weekend we sailed on a Prindle 19 (one of the fastest beach cats). That suited her. We were literally sailing at 3x the speed of slower boats. Pointing high too, when we wanted to. I'm old now, but I kinna want the Prindle now too!


Very true. On all points


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

pdqaltair said:


> The thing that bothers me the most at boat shows is the shear size of the boats. No wonder it is of no interest. Not enough emphasis on dinghies and small boats, the sort you really learn to sail on and which are fun for younger people. I learned on a beach cat, and at that age, tearing along at 15-20 knots was WAY more fun than wallowing at 6 knots and watching sunsets.
> !


I think pimping bigger is better is the only direction keel boat manufacturers have to go. I can't think of any other way to keep consumers consuming.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I don't know. I think manufacturers have engineered large vessels to be manageable by smaller crews, which makes them more accessible to the consumer. 40 years ago, there were virtually no lines lead to the cockpit and certainly no electric self tailing winches. These innovations have been game changers and larger boats are more comfortable and useful to have guests along. They have their well discussed downsides too, but I think it's demand driven, not foisted upon the consumer.


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

Arcb said:


> I think pimping bigger is better is the only direction keel boat manufacturers have to go. I can't think of any other way to keep consumers consuming.


two big reasons for the bigger boats:

1. Fiberglass: the advent of fiberglass boats meant that a manufacturer's chief competition became his own, older products. An even modestly-cared for plastic boat lasts forever. It becomes a lot harder to make a profit when a buyer can shell out less than half the cost of a new boat for something almost as good. This goes double for new boaters who before might only be able to afford a small new boat. With fiberglass, they could all of a sudden afford a bigger boat. Which leads to reason number two:

2. Smaller boats mean smaller profits. With the market for smaller boats shrinking because of the availability of used boats, the best way to make more money is to make bigger boats.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

If its market driven, why the decline in cruising boat ownership?

25 years ago the Toronto boat show had an exhibition building dedicated to keel boats. Now there are maybe 8 boats.

The plus is the dinghy floor space seems to be on the rebound and now kayaks have their own wing.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I haven't seen data that there is a decline in cruising boat ownership, but I'm not following the logic. Sales are based upon current demand, not the inventory of past sales. 

The indoor shows I've been to, such as the New England boatshow, have also had fewer and fewer keelboats in them. My guess was that the larger vessels in demand are too difficult to get indoors.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I don't have stats, but I have my doubts that as many people are buying new keel boats today, as they were in the 80s. I wouldnt be surprised if the people buying the big keel boats now, are the same people as those who bought them in the 80s and 90s. I don't think the activuty is attracting a lot of new people. 

Multi hulls are a different story.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Arch, I don't think I disagree with your last post, but also don't see how that contradicts the current demand from being for bigger boats. 

The last I saw the data, the rise in average boat length wasn't all that dramatic anyway. Just don't feel like looking it up again, but it's out there.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

Minnewaska said:


> I don't know. I think manufacturers have engineered large vessels to be manageable by smaller crews, which makes them more accessible to the consumer. 40 years ago, there were virtually no lines lead to the cockpit and certainly no electric self tailing winches. These innovations have been game changers and larger boats are more comfortable and useful to have guests along. They have their well discussed downsides too, but I think it's demand driven, not foisted upon the consumer.


I've noticed that larger boats are running into space issues. Port Jeff Yacht Club where I am spending a lot of time this season has over a dozen 500 pound transient moorings. Boats in the 30 to 40 foot range like mine can pick up any one of them. They only have two 600 pound moorings for larger boats. Some had to be turned away Labor day weekend.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

A lot of things are getting past their expiration date.
Harley is in big trouble. Boomers either have theirs or are aging out. Younger folk either have no interest in riding or are on crotch rockets.
Antiques and other collectibles have no market. 
Small keel boats aren’t as fast nor fun to most as compared to other boats/boards/skiffs/moths/cats/tris in terms of appeal to the younger crowd. Bigger keelboats can cruise. Their market share is threatened by multis not smaller boats. Due to cost/beam/aesthetics/other considerations they will be around but market proportion will be higher in boats over 60’. 
People are living in cities more than suburbia. The immigration back to cities is primarily fueled by folks under 40. Having something you can blow up or fold up and store in an apartment has great appeal. Having something that costs a small fortune and requires a long commute doesn’t.


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## 66tino (8 mo ago)

I'm from the other end of the stick. I've owned fishing boats, speed boats and a brand new pontoon boat that I just sold and bought a sailboat blindly. let me tell you speed boats are BORING, Pontoon boats are BORING unless you own a cottage, and fishing boats well in my lake fishing sucks and I don't feel like travelling.... I've only been sailing for a couple weeks and the learning curve is huge and I LOVE IT! Not just speeding to a destination or wasting gas uselessly, sailing gives you a purpose...


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## Gagadano (7 mo ago)

Maybe people don't have time for that because they have other things to do. Or maybe they've floated a bunch of places, and they're bored with it. This can happen in any hobby, sometimes you have to take a break from it, or it will get boring.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

deleted


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

I suspect "dreamers" don't know how much work is involved in owning a boat.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

I'm seeing six pages of replies on this thread which basically says; People sure waste a lot of time and energy worrying about what other people do or don't do!


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

deleted


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

deniseO30 said:


> I'm seeing six pages of replies on this thread which basically says; People sure waste a lot of time and energy worrying about what other people do or don't do!


I agree with Denise, this thread (and other similar ones) always seem a little creepy to me. Who cares how much others use their boats? Why make any judgments on this? It's all good.

I doubt most peoples' observations are valid anyway. You might be someone who visits your boat every weekend, while those "unused" boats have retired owners who avoid the crowds by using their boats during the week. Those empty slips you see in the marina might actually be people who are out all the time. Unless you live aboard full time in a marina, your data is probably slanted by selection bias based on your own visiting patterns.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

deleted


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

I suppose this impacts inventory and value of boats.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

People are informed about "things" by observations....I would say there is information in the observations of moored and docked boats.


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## Grith (Feb 4, 2019)

I agree far fewer are sailing these days as far fewer kids are taking up sailing young to progress later in life. Re boats sitting unused in marinas, think toys sitting unused in sheds. Often the dream of use keeps the daily grind of earning a dollar and dealing with life bearable for some when perhaps they would be better off giving up the keeping up with the neighbours and just going sailing! 
PS I have a trailable cruising yacht and having to walk past it daily (and occasionally  climb onboard and do some upgrades) has pushed my retirement early to just go sailing. 🙂


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

I don't bother to go for day sailing. I would do mini cruises of 3 days or more. Boat is for sail because I am not using it and it takes care of $. I have disabilities which make single handing not sensible or possible.... and that complicates it further. 

References and a link to a boat-for-sale posting removed per forum rules on boats-for- sale- Jeff_H, SailNet Moderator


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

I don't think the problem is exclusive to sailing. There are plenty of powerboats that rarely leave the dock too. My neighbor has a nice ski boat that sits in his driveway 99% of the time. I see them take it out a couple of times in the summer.

On the other hand I see plenty of boats that are well used. The guy who bought my old boat takes it out several times a week when the weather is nice, and even when it is not if there is a race.

And then there are the boats that used to go out frequently for many years, but their owners have gotten older and less mobile. There is one member in my club who used to race regularly, and maintain his boat, but in the last few years his boat has become quite dilapidated. He is simply not capable of sailing it by himself, or even doing regular maintenance. I spoke to him the other day and he talked about selling, but said "I have to fix her up first, because I'm not going to GIVE her away". The fact is his boat has fallen into such a state of disrepair that giving her away is probably the only way he will get rid of it. Even in his aged and frail condition he just won't give up on the dream. I suspect his story is repeated many times in the boating community.

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