# Recore Entire Deck



## BillOcala (Feb 25, 2013)

I have a small boat that needs the entire cabin/fore deck area recored. Probably and area about 15 or so feet long. Should I try to do the whole thing at once - or as I am thinking now - should I break into smaller bands say 2 feet at a time with overlapping tapered joints?


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Wow.. big job.

24 foot swing keel? What's on the interior surfaces now? Anything?

If the deck surface is in good shape it would be nice to do all this from the inside... but working with coring and fabric upside down is a pretty daunting thought... is this boat small enough, and do you have the setup to be able to roll her over? and then would there be access to work inside? Gravity would be your friend then (at least until you rolled her back..) You'd also need to worry about supporting the deck to maintain it's original shape. 

Removing the outer skin and redoing the deck afterwards is more work still, though you've the advantage of working with glass in a more ventilated environment and you can do much of the work from alongside the hull. However it's very difficult to get a professional looking finish on the deck, working from below you can always cover it up with something.

Either way you look at it this is a lousy, big job. Doing it in stages may be easiest, but doing it in such a way that your final skins end up being continuous membranes instead of sections would give the best result.

Is the delam wet? if so you're looking at some dryout time once you've opened it up, and again doing it all at once would probably be best.

I don't envy you.. hope you didn't pay much for this project!


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## harborhobo (Jan 26, 2011)

I recored about 15 feet on each side of my Nordic 44. Previous owners had never rebedded the chainplates. I removed and cleaned all 15 feet. I then cut the cleaned deck pieces into 2-3 foot sections. Even working fast with a team mixing my epoxy, it was all I could do to butter and fit 3 feet of balsa before the epoxy started to kick. I then set the old deck skin back in place. When all the sections were back in place and set, your grind down the cuts, tape and epoxy , and then fill and fair. 

I did repaint the deck with Interlux Perfection. I also made sure that all of my cuts were made in areas that were later covered with non-skid. In my case, I used Kiwigrip, which was great.

Really happy with the outcome.

Good luck!


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

BillOcala said:


> I have a small boat that needs the entire cabin/fore deck area recored. Probably and area about 15 or so feet long. Should I try to do the whole thing at once - or as I am thinking now - should I break into smaller bands say 2 feet at a time with overlapping tapered joints?


Why bother? For the cost, you could probably buy a similar usable boat.


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## BillOcala (Feb 25, 2013)

Yeah I first I walked away, but it is a neat old boat with a super large daysailer cockpit which I really really like so I went for it. Yeah a big job, but I got a cheap price and a dual axle trailer that is worth that, so I figured what the hell I would try it.

The interior is in really good shape and has a full inner liner. The liner is also very heavily built and should hold the repair with no additional support - so my plan was to work from the outside. There is also the mast itself which rests on a stainless pole.



Faster said:


> Wow.. big job.
> 
> 24 foot swing keel? What's on the interior surfaces now? Anything?
> 
> ...


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## BillOcala (Feb 25, 2013)

This is also what happened here - they made repairs/replacements and didn't bed them. The actual chain plates all go into solid fiberglass fortunately, and the mast step is a rigid design to a stainless pole with no wood involved anywhere either. (In fact the boat sails as is)

I was curious about the drying time. That confirms what I was suspicious of. Even with prefitting everything I figured I could only go so fast. The hull shape I need to work with is all flat and then curves down to meet the hull sides just above the windows, beyond which is solid fiberglass I can tie directly to (No walkways - sort of Chrysler like in shape). So I am 1/2 considering using plywood for the flat part and balsa for the radius/joint area.

I saw an ad for a new epoxy last night from West that comes in tubes for a caulking gun that mixes as you dispense it. Named 600 or something like that I think it was called that could be handy in some spots if it is what I think it is.



harborhobo said:


> I recored about 15 feet on each side of my Nordic 44. Previous owners had never rebedded the chainplates. I removed and cleaned all 15 feet. I then cut the cleaned deck pieces into 2-3 foot sections. Even working fast with a team mixing my epoxy, it was all I could do to butter and fit 3 feet of balsa before the epoxy started to kick. I then set the old deck skin back in place. When all the sections were back in place and set, your grind down the cuts, tape and epoxy , and then fill and fair.
> 
> I did repaint the deck with Interlux Perfection. I also made sure that all of my cuts were made in areas that were later covered with non-skid. In my case, I used Kiwigrip, which was great.
> 
> ...


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## BillOcala (Feb 25, 2013)

Well that is the other thing - as far as I can tell there just aren't any more of these. I got it for the value of the trailer (not counting the sails - one of which is a spinnaker) so I figured it was worth a chance and I might learn something in the process. I am one of those that likes projects and picking up new skills, it would be 1/2 the fun. If it works, what better feeling than sailing a boat you know you sort of fixed/built yourself? 



jameswilson29 said:


> Why bother? For the cost, you could probably buy a similar usable boat.


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## BillOcala (Feb 25, 2013)

This was in another thread - slowing down the hardening time should be the ticket?



scottyt said:


> i would not chisel out the good core, having the skin over lapping good core will be stronger.
> 
> as for wetting it out, yes wet everything out with epoxy. place the core which is wet on the lower skin which is also wet out, then use some thickened epoxy to fill any gaps, then wet out the top skin and put in place with weight. you also might want to use a slower hardener, as it can sit over night or a full day while you work on the next area. and yes it will squish up some if there is enough epoxy in there. thats why you want to use a large trash bags with sand, you want to have a 100 lbs on the area ( say a 2 to 3 foot area ) in several bags to make sure it get pushed down


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## msmith10 (Feb 28, 2009)

You can prolong your working time with a slow setting hardener. You won't want to use the West 610. It's a good product but not meant for this purpose- more of a filler. Also very expensive. I consider it a "convenience product"-- worth paying for when I've got a little spot to fill or filet and I don't want to bother mixing up my own.


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## tom_beckstedt (Feb 25, 2012)

Here is a link of some one who re-cored his deck on a cal 25 . He tells how to do it and has pic.s Cal 25 Restoration - Tim Zeug # 827


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## BillOcala (Feb 25, 2013)

Thanks for the feedback and pointing me in the right direction. I plan to blog about my successes (and failures) with this restoration.


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## willyd (Feb 22, 2008)

I think you might find the work shown here a little more like the repair you are undertaking.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

Before you decide on and inside or outside repair you need to understand how THAT BOAT IS BUILT

REGARDLESS of the each ways merits there are many boats like older Cal 29s were there is and inner skin with ZERO CONNECTION to the hull and if you remove the outer skin the FRONT will in fact FALL OFF










The core goes all the way to the toe rail and there is only one layer of glass on the edges pretty much doing nothing









This is especially problematic on boats with and outward flange and molded fiberglass toerails as the whole deal is already pretty week and there is NOT enough space to taper the repair joint to KEEP its original strength

When the boat was new they placed the deck on the hull with some polyester ? resin putty and a few layers of tape inside which works fine as long as you leave the outside in one piece


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

I did about 50 sq. ft. of recoring on my boat last summer. Do it from above - don't even consider doing it from underneath - gravity is your friend from above and your enemy below.

Do it in sections and reuse the top skin if you can although for a job as big as yours it may not be worth the extra grinding etc. - you'll have to Kiwigrip it or use another product no matter what.

Find an industrial type source for your epoxy & other products - West at retail is twice what I paid. The thickeners are 10X the price of industrial suppliers. You'll need a lot of everything so the savings are large.

Cut the top skin off, clean everything up well and sand the top of the inner skin. Squeegee on a thin coat of thickened epoxy to level things up then sand it when cured. Cut your balsa to fit the area you will be working on. When fitted well, roll on resin on the "down" side of it. Open all the cut lines and coat them as well. Roll on resin into the area you will be placing it and fit it. Cover with poly plastic and weight it with sandbags or plastic jugs of water to clamp it down. When cured, inject or squeegee thickened epoxy into any seams that are open at all - around the perimeter of the core especially. When it's all well cured, sand it lightly to remove the bumps (balsa is soft so not too hard with the sanding) and you can move on to the top skin replacement - either new fabric or putting the old skins back. Roll on resin first to seal the core. When it's cured, lightly sand and then do the skin.

It's a pretty simple job - no special skills required, just repetitive, messy and itchy - work neatly to minimize the sanding & grinding of glass. Use gloves at ALL times - get a box of quality latex gloves before you start. Cheap ones fall apart.


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## gts1544 (Apr 26, 2008)

*BillOcala*, Despite having no knowledge, I have never be reticent about throwing in my two cents worth. I have a similar problem on a much larger boat, 43' cutter. I was conversing with a very knowledgible gentleman in Seattle the other evening and telling him about my issue. He has a Starratt & Jenks 45 that he has owned since new in 1977. He was at the factory in Florida when they laid the deck. They used 3" squares of 3/4" marine plywood as the core, separated by a 1/8" space which was filled with resin upon completion of laying the plywood squares, hence a leak into the core could not affect any adjacent areas due to the blocking action of the resin dams. Seemed like a hell of a good idea to me! Best of luck!


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## BillOcala (Feb 25, 2013)

Lots of super useful information. 

This boat doesn't have a toe rail, this is hard to explain. The sides are smooth and the deck flows to become one with the side of the boat. Or to put it another way, the upper deck skin merges with the inner liner at a point above the cabin windows and appear to become one solid piece of fiberglass before the upper/lower hull seam. I have made no cuts yet but by examining existing mounts and holes (like where the windows are) I think I understand it - we will see once I dig in. 

If you can picture this, the joint appears to be something of a "Y" shaped affair with the outboard part of the "Y" being almost vertical and there is no angled joint or seam inside (until you get to the actual hull.) The way they appear to have built it this may be a bit of a blessing as I think I can tab into that if I make my cut right. 

This boat appears to be extremely heavily built and I have so far not found anything but hand-laid fabric. We will see, I plan to start cutting this weekend - weather permitting.


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## BillOcala (Feb 25, 2013)

What a great idea.



gts1544 said:


> *BillOcala*, Despite having no knowledge, I have never be reticent about throwing in my two cents worth. I have a similar problem on a much larger boat, 43' cutter. I was conversing with a very knowledgible gentleman in Seattle the other evening and telling him about my issue. He has a Starratt & Jenks 45 that he has owned since new in 1977. He was at the factory in Florida when they laid the deck. They used 3" squares of 3/4" marine plywood as the core, separated by a 1/8" space which was filled with resin upon completion of laying the plywood squares, hence a leak into the core could not affect any adjacent areas due to the blocking action of the resin dams. Seemed like a hell of a good idea to me! Best of luck!


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

That is an extremely tedious way to core a laminate - opening up all the cut lines in balsa and coating them with epoxy resin accomplishes the same thing I.E. sealing the individual blocks, but is a LOT faster, easier, uses less of that expensive resin and is lighter.

Using plywood as core in high load areas, such as winch and cleat mounting areas is common practice but balsa or foam is better for large areas of diffuse loading.


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## bobmcgov (Jul 19, 2007)

It's not that bad a job. Usually. Messy, tedious, but perfectly straightforward. If your inner skin is nice and rigid, definitely work from above; may want to add some sprung battens in the cabin to help it keep its shape while working above. I'd do this job in two or three sections, then scarf out the joints between, glass, and fair them into a monolithic skin.

We are presently peeling off parts of our Albin Ballad inner skin to prepare for hatches and recoring the side decks. It's a job made more gruesome by the construction method: apparently the inner and outer skins were 'tied' together using loops of glass fiber; then the 1"t Divinycell core was poured in place. Plus one hundred for strength and delamination resistance. Minus one hundred for getting the damned thing apart!





Yes, we will be recoring from below. Partly because spot-tests have convinced us the foam will dry out v. quickly once exposed to the air, and we have tons of hardware work to do below anyhow. Also, we recored the San Juan 21 that way, and with a little foresight, it isn't that bad. When it came time to glass, we just hung the first layer of fabric in place using pushpins, then started rolling slightly thickened epoxy from the center outward -- removing pins as we went. Subsequent layers were gently pressed into the kicking resin & supported themselves. Gravity is largely overrated. Mere physics is no obstacle for clever, clever monkeys.


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## deltaten (Oct 10, 2012)

Bob;;
That's the original "stitch 'n'glue"!!! 

Hmmm. it'd be better if we could see the boat; mebbe it's listed at SailboatData?? It sounds almost like a gasketed lid arrangement. NIce if it'd be a seperable joint, o matter the kind,. That small a boat with a reportedly large CP would have little by way of cabin top and fore deck. 
Cut fore and aft at a convenient place, separate the top from the hull and flip that over to work. Thataways, if need be, you could core to the edge, get enuff material on the inner skin..always seems ta be a problem!..and not have to re-dp the surface of the deck. Awl-grip notwithstanding... filling and fairing, sandig and painting an entire forepeak wouldn;t be my cuppa tea 

$.02 :shrugs:


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Bill, you can always call the tech guys at West Systems. They'll work with you on the phone, and even give you a bill of materials and cost estimate based on their products at retail prices. Whether you do it that way or not is of course your option, but you can't get a better realuty check on the job.


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## bobmcgov (Jul 19, 2007)

deltaten said:


> Bob;;
> That's the original "stitch 'n'glue"!!!


Looks like bad Russian hair transplant. You essentially have to cheesewire the whole section of inner skin off, one linear inch at a time. I'm a _leeeetle_ worried about losing that skin-to-skin linkage -- but thickened epoxy is pretty awesome stuff, and the repaired sections will all have solid core areas under the hardware to tie everything together. My shop has a startling pile of 1" phenolic slab lurking in the corner; roughly one zillion tons compressive strength. Its weight may cause the boat to turtle, but by Jove! those genoa tracks, they not be leakin'.


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## BillOcala (Feb 25, 2013)

This made sense to me after I thought about it more. I still have to open it up (this weekend is still the plan) but I think I will be plywood longitudinally down the center and through and solidly bonded to the mast step and contour-core or similar on the flanks.

The mystery that I fear has no answer other than exploration - is where to cut on the sides. There is no information on the boats. They either all sunk or were scraped or there were just not very many of them in the first place. Makes it sort of more scarey and fun in a weird way, and hopefully all the more reason to go to the trouble to do it in the first place.

I am attaching a picture of the boat at the repair site.



SloopJonB said:


> That is an extremely tedious way to core a laminate - opening up all the cut lines in balsa and coating them with epoxy resin accomplishes the same thing I.E. sealing the individual blocks, but is a LOT faster, easier, uses less of that expensive resin and is lighter.
> 
> Using plywood as core in high load areas, such as winch and cleat mounting areas is common practice but balsa or foam is better for large areas of diffuse loading.


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## bobmcgov (Jul 19, 2007)

Neat-looking boat. The flush deck makes it resemble the SJ21 Mk2, Cal25, and Ensenada 20, with a little Dovekie tossed in. Personally, I ain't a fan of plywood as a core material. Neither flesh nor fowl. It's heavier than balsa without much more compressive strength. If water gets in -- even a drop -- it wicks sideways far worse than end-grain balsa. If you want pure compression resistance (like under the mast plate), I'd advise G10 or phenolic. You can make your own, if needed. Otherwise, balsa everywhere with properly over-filled penetrations. 

Wet balsa can be dried, if it hasn't rotted; it takes a very long time. Foam is much quicker and easier to dry out & usually stays sound unless freeze-thaw has caused it to delaminate. Wet plywood is a total loss, always.

Have you pulled a portlight to see if the core runs down the coachroof sides? Often on these smaller boats, only the deck itself was cored, out to maybe 1" from the turn of the roof. That hull-to-deck joint looks in the photo like yer basic shoebox overlap, covered with a rubrail. Often the joint was just riveted or screwed together -- no putty, no glue, no nuffin. It is not unheard of for people to remove the entire deck for recoring, flipping it over in the yard.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

BillOcala said:


> This made sense to me after I thought about it more. I still have to open it up (this weekend is still the plan) but I think I will be plywood longitudinally down the center and through and solidly bonded to the mast step and contour-core or similar on the flanks.
> 
> The mystery that I fear has no answer other than exploration - is where to cut on the sides. There is no information on the boats. They either all sunk or were scraped or there were just not very many of them in the first place. Makes it sort of more scarey and fun in a weird way, and hopefully all the more reason to go to the trouble to do it in the first place.
> 
> I am attaching a picture of the boat at the repair site.


That will be a pretty easy job - it's essentially a flush deck, like I did. I would recommend you just accept that you will have to refinish the deck with Kiwigrip or similar and do your exploring with a drill or hole saw.

Sound the deck with a hard plastic hammer to find the extent of the rot - mark the perimeters with pencil and then test drill. Obviously don't drill through the bottom skin - you will feel when you are through to it. Keep moving until you are comfortable you have discovered and marked everything then start cutting away the top skin. I used thin cutoff wheels in a 5" angle grinder. Have a shop-vac on hand and hold the hose next to the cut point - it will cut down massively on the itching.  Also, wear a mask & safety glasses. Gloves and long sleeves taped to your wrists help as well - LOTS of glass dust (AKA itching powder) will be created.

I started out just following the pencil lines, whichever way they ran but quickly realized it was better and easier to square up the cut lines, even if it meant removing some good core - the balsa is "square" so it's easier to cut & place into "square" areas of deck.

I agree with BobM - I'd forget plywood and use composite if you are nervous about compressive strength. That boat is small enough that it won't be a problem though, even under the mast step - the loads just aren't that great.

Be sure to overdrill any holes you drill and fill the hole with thickened resin then re-drill the correct fastener size through the solid epoxy.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

One more thing re: where to cut on the sides. Make your cut far enough inboard to leave sufficient width to bevel the skin to get a proper bond on the new top skin - I used a 10-1 bevel. 1/4" top skin tapered out 2 1/2" on all sides.

If you find voids outside of your cut, clean then out with a hook - bent coathanger or some such, clean the area with an acetone soaked rag and then fill them with thick, non-runny glass filled resin.


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

if you decide to do the deck then ditch the rotary grinder and use an oscillating saw . way less dust Oscillating Multifunction Power Tool w/ Variable Speed
me I say ditch the boat and find another to put on the trailer. the materials to do the deck will cost more than getting a different boat.


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## BillOcala (Feb 25, 2013)

I am really glad I posted here - you guys have already saved me from a lot of mistakes. I am sure I will find new ways to go wrong - I am real good about that! Yeah it is an unusual boat, I had never seen one before - the big cockpit and the boat being "beach-able" is really great for what I have in mind.


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## BillOcala (Feb 25, 2013)

bobmcgov said:


> If you want pure compression resistance (like under the mast plate),


That is one place where I am lucky - the mast step is solid fiberglass over a stainless steel post below.


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

if you have solid glass on the mast step, an companion way and a hatch. how much deck is left? are you sure it all needs to be recored. it looks like it has a lot of curve which should help make it stiff without a core. I have repaired many delamed small boat decks by using the plug method. the plug method is where you drill a pattern of 1/4" holes through the one skin and with a special L shaped tool spun by a drill motor you clean out about a 1 1/2" dia. area between the skin. you then inject thickened epoxy. all is needed is to paint over the filled holes and its done. you are creating a grid of filled holes and it works very good on small decks. the thicken epoxy can be made with glass micro spheres and the weight is less then balsa


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## bobmcgov (Jul 19, 2007)

BillOcala said:


> I am really glad I posted here - you guys have already saved me from a lot of mistakes. I am sure I will find new ways to go wrong - I am real good about that! Yeah it is an unusual boat, I had never seen one before - the big cockpit and the boat being "beach-able" is really great for what I have in mind.


Large cockpit & fully retracting keel is boffo for daysailing; we can fit 5-6 people on our SJ21, with its 9' benches. That's a good-looking boat to my eye. As for cost ... it's all about your time. The entire deck on our San Juan was less than $250 in epoxy, fabric, and core material. And that was using CoreCell, which is quite a bit pricier than balsa. Any boat of that age under $3500, you are probably gonna have similar issues. If the sails are decent and your time is cheap, gutting the deck is a good getting-to-know-you play date. A bonding exercise. Get epoxy in your hair, literally a bonding exercise. Good luck & keep us appraised!


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## BillOcala (Feb 25, 2013)

I am looking at this a a great learning opportunity. I have not done a damn thing really and I have already learned a heck of a lot I didn't know before.

I was out at the boat a few hours this evening really think I can do this. I walked around and beat the hull and I _think_ have a 5' x 6' and a 3' x 4' area to do.

I want to thank you all for the answers to my initial questions. We will see what happens - I will keep track of this project somewhere in case someone is interested in how this goes.


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## BillOcala (Feb 25, 2013)

1975 Erika 24 Daysailer by Anacapri - A Restoration

I have never done a blog before - not much there yet but I hope to chronicle my project progress there.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

In looking at the picture in your blog its a real small deck that looks in GOOD SHAPE and has some fairly complex curves 

I would NOT be cutting it apart from above


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## BillOcala (Feb 25, 2013)

This is what I have - a cored deck only and then the turn of the roof is 1/4" fiberglass. I have also since discovered that the seam between the two halves of the boat is was completely fiberglassed together and has no screws at all.



bobmcgov said:


> Have you pulled a portlight to see if the core runs down the coachroof sides? Often on these smaller boats, only the deck itself was cored, out to maybe 1" from the turn of the roof. That hull-to-deck joint looks in the photo like yer basic shoebox overlap, covered with a rubrail. Often the joint was just riveted or screwed together -- no putty, no glue, no nuffin. It is not unheard of for people to remove the entire deck for recoring, flipping it over in the yard.


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## bobmcgov (Jul 19, 2007)

BillOcala said:


> This is what I have - a cored deck only and then the turn of the roof is 1/4" fiberglass. I have also since discovered that the seam between the two halves of the boat is was completely fiberglassed together and has no screws at all.


Pretty typical construction for the era & good news on both fronts. You'll need to make the inner/outer skin determination for yourself, but either choice is fine. Each has advantages & disadvantages. Weather windows have some influence, too.

I really like Gougeon Bros.' West Systems epoxy and use it for critical applications, because I explicitly trust their standards of manufacture. But for bulk work like this, you can save 50% by purchasing discount epoxy (I wouldn't even consider polyester resin for this job.) There are a number of formulators out there -- and that's all they are, because everyone buys their resins and hardeners from the same two sources. They dilute the hardeners and sometimes add solvents to adjust cure rate, flow out, and mix ratios.

*HOWEVER*: Some of these discounters supply (or sell) pumps for their epoxies _that are not metered_. That is, they don't dispense the correct amounts of resin & hardener on a one-pump to one-pump basis. Even if they are different colors, or have different numbers on them, *the pumps are identical.* YOU have to count the right number of strokes, like "Three resin, one hardener." If you are used to metered pumps from top-end vendors like West or MAS, there is room for heartbreak here.

Do not ask how I know this.


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## BillOcala (Feb 25, 2013)

The outer skin is pretty crappy cosmetically. The previous owner did a lot of strange things to it. He had even mounted wood lattice work above the deck so he can walk on it. So thru the top I'm going to do. The inside cabin is too pretty to tear up.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

bill, 
I suspect your new best friends will be a couple of high quality sanders, one belt and one circular, with a good shopvac attachment, some tyvek suits and face masks. (With goggles.)

And there's all sorts of antiskid materials that look like cork, or rubber, or teak, that are glued on in sheets to hide what's left.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

bobmcgov said:


> I really like Gougeon Bros.' West Systems epoxy and use it for critical applications, because I explicitly trust their standards of manufacture. But for bulk work like this, you can save 50% by purchasing discount epoxy (I wouldn't even consider polyester resin for this job.) There are a number of formulators out there -- and that's all they are, because everyone buys their resins and hardeners from the same two sources. They dilute the hardeners and sometimes add solvents to adjust cure rate, flow out, and mix ratios.
> 
> *HOWEVER*: Some of these discounters supply (or sell) pumps for their epoxies _that are not metered_. That is, they don't dispense the correct amounts of resin & hardener on a one-pump to one-pump basis. Even if they are different colors, or have different numbers on them, *the pumps are identical.* YOU have to count the right number of strokes, like "One resin, three hardener." If you are used to metered pumps from top-end vendors like West or MAS, there is room for heartbreak here.
> 
> Do not ask how I know this.


I totally agree with the bulk epoxy & thickeners. I have a huge amount of respect for the Gougeons and what they have contributed to boatbuilding (I have a first edition of their book ) but I feel their products, especially the additives, are grossly overpriced. All that marketing is expensive. Their stuff and prices may be O/K for small jobs and hobby stuff but when you get to an industrial strength job like a deck recore the difference in prices can really add up. When I did my deck it cost me about a boat buck - it would have been way more than two if I had used all WEST products.

For a job like you are contemplating, I'd forget about pumps altogether and go with graduated containers for mixing - you'll get RSI pumping that many little squirts.


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## bobmcgov (Jul 19, 2007)

SloopJonB said:


> I totally agree with the bulk epoxy & thickeners. I have a huge amount of respect for the Gougeons and what they have contributed to boatbuilding (I have a first edition of their book ) but I feel their products, especially the additives, are grossly overpriced. All that marketing is expensive. Their stuff and prices may be O/K for small jobs and hobby stuff but when you get to an industrial strength job like a deck recore the difference in prices can really add up. When I did my deck it cost me about a boat buck - it would have been way more than two if I had used all WEST products.
> 
> For a job like you are contemplating, I'd forget about pumps altogether and go with graduated containers for mixing - you'll get RSI pumping that many little squirts.


The other sellers are kinda freeloading off WEST's huge, decades-long R&D project. The Gougens test to destruction all kinds of bonds and coatings, just to see how their products perform. They put ungodly dollars into formulating high flexural-modulus epoxies like G*Flex and the spiral nozzle caulk tubes that mix on the fly. They standardized the use of so many additives, curing schedules, and resin/fabric design work, all with an eye toward building and repairing boats, that they could be said to have invented the discipline.

Aeromarine has a basic website and some cheap-ass Chinese pumps.

So I try to honor WEST's public service with a hundred bux here and there; if nothing else, it's nice to have them around to ask questions of, and to have their product line available locally in an emergency. But when I'm buying two or three gallons at a time, I choose one of the discount houses. These guys will be seeing a chunk of my bank account next month. I've read the formulators' markup on epoxy runs 7 to 15X -- which I agree seems awfully high. But then, I ain't in the business & hesitate to tell people how they should price stuff.

Measuring cups are certainly faster than pumping. If you want real accuracy, speed, and the ability to mix exactly as much epoxy as required, portioning by weight is ideal. A digital scale in a big Ziplock is your friend! Weight ratios are not always the same as volume ratios tho, so you will need the exact numbers from your formulator. IIRC, WEST with special coatings hardener is 3.5:1 by volume, 3.7:1 by weight.


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## BillOcala (Feb 25, 2013)

Well I think I will start with one of these areas, then confirm what I think is under there and go from there. The bow and the center axis seem to be solid glass and the rounded edges are 1/4" solid glass. Seemed like the safest place to start?

(The supply buying is a little confusing. Here in Florida there are several local sources of resin etc. but I am going to have to go carefully on that.)



bobmcgov said:


> Pretty typical construction for the era & good news on both fronts. You'll need to make the inner/outer skin determination for yourself, but either choice is fine. Each has advantages & disadvantages. Weather windows have some influence, too.
> 
> I really like Gougeon Bros.' West Systems epoxy and use it for critical applications, because I explicitly trust their standards of manufacture. But for bulk work like this, you can save 50% by purchasing discount epoxy (I wouldn't even consider polyester resin for this job.) There are a number of formulators out there -- and that's all they are, because everyone buys their resins and hardeners from the same two sources. They dilute the hardeners and sometimes add solvents to adjust cure rate, flow out, and mix ratios.
> 
> ...


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## BillOcala (Feb 25, 2013)

Well we are going under the knife tomorrow. Thanks for all of your ideas - this is weirder because there is no data for this boat. At the very least some future Anacapri Erica 24 owner will know what is inside his boat 

My tool of choice an oscillating multitool Nice clean cuts.


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## bobmcgov (Jul 19, 2007)

BillOcala said:


> Well we are going under the knife tomorrow. Thanks for all of your ideas - this is weirder because there is no data for this boat. At the very least some future Anacapri Erica 24 owner will know what is inside his boat
> 
> My tool of choice an oscillating multitool Nice clean cuts.


Good luck! The multitool is far and away the best choice for this job. There's a tendency on some of the cheaper versions for the blade to get pinched in the deck core & vibrate loose. I put a lock washer under the retaining bolt & that solved the need to re-tighten the blade every two feet. Hmm... you've got me motivated to carve out another section of our sidedecks. Ugh. You would not believe the state of the genoa track backing. So rotted, can't tell if it was solid fir or plywood!


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## BillOcala (Feb 25, 2013)

This weekend I will be finishing up the deck repair. It was a big job, but not nearly as scary or messy as it sounded initially. Advice you guys gave really helped with that. Florida summer weather was really the only bad part about the whole deal. Now that I have all these really cool tools, (and a little bit more experience) I think I might be looking to pick up another distressed boat this winter and do this again!


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## arf145 (Jul 25, 2007)

Have any pictures for us?


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## BillOcala (Feb 25, 2013)

I am done fiberglassing!!!! 

Conquered major delays:
- I messed up my knee fooling with a tarp tore my PCL (sort of the opposite of a ACL)
- Working in 90 to 100 degree weather with rain almost every day

I have learned that: 
- Working with fiberglass cloth is why cuss words were invented. Fiberglass cloth will NEVER lay down the same way twice. 
- CSM is a breeze if you dont mess with it too much once down. Rolling heavy CSM too much at the wrong time causes it to break up on your roller and make an awful mess.
- And today I discovered that Love Bugs are attracted to the smell of Polyester resin. Arrggg!!!

I would do it again- but never ever ever ever ever again in the summer time!!!!

P.S. (I did not reuse the old skin - it just didn't look like it would fit right. I laid all new material)


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Were you using true fiberglass "cloth"? A better choice is 17 Oz. uncrimped fabric - often called Biaxial. It drapes nicely, wets out nicely and doesn't move around as much as cloth when you roll & squeegee it. It also builds thickness faster.


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## BillOcala (Feb 25, 2013)

A lot more work to do, and off topic - but finally in the water.


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## arf145 (Jul 25, 2007)

Pretty boat!


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