# Small Liveaboard Cat search



## djeeke

Hello,

After a post on the FP Louisiane I am redirecting my search with a more general thread which seems a lot smarter (I guess I learn fast ?) !

We own a 27 ft monohull but consider switching to a Cat for liveaboard and extended cruising...

My budget for the boat... good one... in the range of 100 to 120k Euro...
Would look at buying in the 50-80k range so there would be plenty of room left for some improvements... (there always are improvements and unforeseen expenses) 

We intend, once we have the boat, to move on and start sailing, we would not want it as a day or weekend sailer, I have my Jaguar 27 monohull that does this job perfectly, it easily allows us to go on extended weekends or even longer vacations...
Once liveaboard we will be dependent on our investments income and I want this to be on the safe side...
So every Euro spent is a Euro away from our liveaboard plan, if we are able to get a good cat ready to go for 100k(Euro's) that's where we will go, to the sooner the better. (but will not compromise on safety, maintenance, equipment etc... the boat should be in great shape when we leave)

We would plan on doing some coastal sailing as a start, region and schedule undefined, could be here in Europe, Africa, US, name it... Does not really matter, sailing is great !!! Last year we talked with an English skipper who had been sailing for 7 years, initially left the UK and now sailing Turkey, but hell he enjoyed every minute of it... So a timing on planning to start ocean crossings we can not give. But if the cat we buy would be circumnavigation capable it would avoid us having to trade boats when we decide to go for it.

How well do they it sail? Anybody has a polar or can tell us how she does windward? What speeds can be obtained while cruising? How easy they sail (singlehanded?)... (after all we will be looking at older Cat's)

If it has a dual diesel inboard setup, we are Ok with this... If we find one with outboard engine setup, I initially was not thrilled about this but after thinking a bit it doesn't look too bad... We would probably replace the outboards with a dual electrical outboard setup. We see outboard engines as inside space savers. Electrical setup means instant access to silent power, no need to bother about thinking of emergence engine start in case something happens, just move the throttle and motor off... Does this sound crazy? 
Would put one on the dinghy as well so no gasoline required in the boat! A diesel gen unit could be used if we really drain the batteries down. (otherwise battery charge through wind/solar system or shore power) And since a diesel gen would bring Mr Diesel on board, Mr webasto will nicely heat up our entire boat as he does on our monohull !...

It looks like the Benetteau II might be a better candidate than the FP louisiane... Any other candidates ? Oh yes, required headroom... We are 5' 8" and 5' 9" (The Mrs and me that is ;-)

Ending this initial post on this one, hope to get interesting feedback and comments...


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## Wankel

oops, didnt see this thread until i posted in your other one

look at the fountaine pajot maldives. 32' ~65.000 euros


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## sailingdog

There are a lot of small catamarans that are fairly seaworthy. A 32'-35' catamaran is going to have significantly more living space than a monohull of the same LOA. They're have about the equivalent living space of a 45' monohull or so.

Some small catamarans to consider:

Gemini
Catalac
Iroquois
FP Maldives
Lagoon 35
PDQ 32 Altair
PDQ 34
FP Tobago 35
Lightwave 35

Most of these have crossed oceans, but were not specifically designed as bluewater cruisers.

I would recommend that you read several books on multihulls, since, by the sounds of it, you don't have much multihull experience.

Chris White's The Cruising Multihull
Mike Mullen's Multihull Seamanship

Be aware that there are some significant differences in sailing techniques and tactics for a multihull, versus a monohull. * For instance:* A multihull reefs for the peak wind speeds as a general rule, where a monohull usually reefs for the average wind speed and handles the gusts by heeling.

There are also some things that you may find unusual about multihulls, due to their design and constraints. For example, the rigging and gear on a multihull is often larger than that on a similar LOA monohull-a Dehler 33 has Lewmar ST30s as their primary genoa winches, where a Telstar 28 has Lewmar ST40s as the genoa winches. This is because a monohull doesn't generate as much force on the sails due to its ability to heel and bleed off excess wind. A multihull doesn't bleed off excess wind by heeling, and generally will accelerate in a puff or gust rather than heel. This is more true for catamarans, which heel far less than even trimarans do.


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## djeeke

Thanks for the feedback sailingdog !

You're absolutely right !
Only sailing experience on a cat was last years vacation on a chartered Leopard 47...

I will certainly get a hold of those books ! 

And will start browsing for the boats you mentioned, we know smaller is cheaper (a lot) but we don't want to be cramped inside the boat either, especially since we want to live on it !
So if we think we would end up too small, we would just wait one or two years...

Anyway, nothing of this in the coming weeks, I'm off for some sailing in Italy (on a monohull again this time)...

Catch you all when I get back !
Djeeke


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## sailingdog

Forgot to add the Seawind 1000/1100 catamarans to the list above. They're built in Oz...and come to the States and EU on their own power usually.


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## Wankel

just looked at the seawind and it looked really nice.
"THE central walkway between the bows lifts to reveal a ladder which drops down to give swimmers access to the water or to the beach"  awesome


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## Doodles

I would look at the Wharram cats, especially the Tiki 38, Pahia 42 and Tiki 46. All are very capable blue water boats. And Wharrams have been circumnavigating for decades. Also, all should be in your price range.


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## thesnort

If I came into some money, I'd buy a Seawind. If I came into more money, a Manta 42. Just a tad more, a Gunboat. A squidge more and it's a Yapluka (something in the triple digits for length). Any more money and I might as well buy myself my own country.


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## sailingdog

The major problem with most of the Wharram catamarans is that they are home-built, often of non-marine-grade plywood, and as such will often have far more serious maintenance problems than a production catamaran that is made of fiberglass. Granted, some of the home-built boats can be absolutely stunning and with detail and quality far surpassing that of a standard production boat-Steelboat's s/v Restless is one that comes to mind-but that is generally a very rare exception.


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## djeeke

*Still alive....*

Hi you all...

I have been silent for some time due to some drastic changes in my life  but am still dreaming... 
And we still want to live our dream so reviving the thread !!!  
Our budget has been cut quite a bit  but we can still go for a bit older (and I guess a bit smaller) boat than originally planned.

We had a look around and saw a 32ft Iroquois (listed on yachtworld, located in Italy) and one listed on pacificbrokers (named Skana Sting, located BC) that could be possible candidates.

So any Iroquois owners (and people who have sailed them), please feel welcome to give us some feedback on this boat... (I read somewhere the sailplan could be improved and the Iroquois might have tendancy to lift a hull (capsize danger?))

Would there be room to install a shower ?
With the outboard engines, how to best produce electricity for the appliances? (I am still thinking converting to electrical and installing a diesel gen but am afraid this smaller cat will not be able to cope with the extra weight of the batteries and generator so maybe keeping the outboards and just installing a smaller gen would be a better choice)

Is there a big difference in space and carrying capacity between the 30 and 32 ft Iroquois? If not, obviously there are some 30ft ones on the market as well that could be interesting...

Anyway, many thanks for any feedback, keep in mind we are looking for a liveaboard boat !


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## pdqaltair

*Head room and bridge deck clearance...*

The eternal compromise. In cats under about 40 feet it is tough to get both. The PDQ 32 and Maldives 32 get by having a sliding roof and hard bimini, but it does not work if the weather is cold. If the slider is closed, there is about 5'3" head room in both, I think. The PDQ 36, being larger, has headroom.

The Gemini solves the problem by lowering the bridge clearance to ~ 4"-6" when loaded. They can slap in harbors and at anchor. And some people love them, because they pack a lot of room in a small package for little $$.

Someone must have mentioned beam: go over ~16' and slips are not generally available.

Consider heating if you have a winter. Some multihulls are designed as though everyone lives in the tropics, or lays up 7 months a year. To live aboard, you need to be able to button-up. You need a real door, not an afterthought.


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## djeeke

*Hobart 900 Catamaran*

Hi !

Anybody any info / ideas on the Hobart 900 Catamaran ?
I just saw one for sale in France on multisailing.com reference 26630

Thx !
Djeeke


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## twinsdad

I am seriously looking at a Seawind 1000XL for coastal cruising for my wife and I, and occasionally with our 8 year old twins. Will also do a lot of single handed sailing in Long Island Sound. My mooring space is constrained to 36 feet. Would love any input, both positive and negative on the boat. Thanks


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## TSOJOURNER

Forgive me for being a purist and a fan of cat boats or "cats", but a catamaran is not a cat boat.
Calling a catamaran a cat is, to me, what calling San Fransisco, "Frisco", is to the residents of that city.


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## chucklesR

Selkirk, you're forgiven, now let us continue to be lazy and call our boats cat's.

Seawinds make excellent boats and liveaboards. I went with my Gemini for several reasons, all design related (vs cost).

Climbing out of the cockpit to go forward, I didn't like the SW, the Gem's more open.
Side decks are narrower on a SW.
I'm really opposed to the twin outboards in wells, they just don't make the amps, and require gas vs diesel.
Beam was too much to ever get a normal slip, and cat slips cost too much on a continuous basis.
The fridge is electric only, and in the master cabin. 

Those were my notes from the tour at the boat show.

They (SW) are faster, and IMHO better built than the Gemini's.

BTW, my Gemini has never slapped in harbor - I have no idea where that comes from.


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## sailingdog

One other point about the Seawinds and other outboard powered catamarans: They will have less flexibility when it comes to re-charging the batteries, adding air conditioning/refrigeration, etc. 

There are some other cats in this size range, like the TomCat 30 and MaineCat 30, but I'm not a particularly big fan of either.  IMHO, they're fairly overpriced for what they give you and their design does not lend itself to singlehanding without some modification due to the cockpit layout.


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## TSOJOURNER

chucklesR said:


> Selkirk, you're forgiven, now let us continue to be lazy and call our boats cat's....


Ok.
But before I go away (and I will) I just want to say that while you may call your catamarans "cats", you will be wrong while doing so.

You can't call a Brigantine a "Brig" because those are two different types of vessel. With similar names.

You can't call a Barquentine a "Barque" because those are two different types of vessel. Similar names.

And a catamaran ain't a cat.
This is a cat









Now I'm done......Hangs head. Shuffles off. Mumbles.


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## bljones

How about a Fisher? Ugly as sin, but a lot of space in a small package.

1978 Catfisher Sailing/Power Catamaran Power Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com


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## sailingdog

Actually, that is a cat boat... not a cat. I've never heard them referred to as Cats, unless it was prefixed by a brand or make, like Beetle Cat...

If you say cat by itself, most people will assume catamaran, not cat boat. 


Selkirk said:


> Ok.
> But before I go away (and I will) I just want to say that while you may call your catamarans "cats", you will be wrong while doing so.
> 
> You can't call a Brigantine a "Brig" because those are two different types of vessel. With similar names.
> 
> You can't call a Barquentine a "Barque" because those are two different types of vessel. Similar names.
> 
> And a catamaran ain't a cat.
> This is a cat
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now I'm done......Hangs head. Shuffles off. Mumbles.


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## djeeke

*34 ft Prout Ranger*



sailingdog said:


> If you say cat by itself, most people will assume catamaran, not cat boat.


ACK !

Anybody able to tell me something about the Prout Ranger series?

There is a 34 ft ranger for sale at a bargain price, This is what it looks like :









You guys know by now I am planning to see some Iroquois catamaran's, this is obviously a very different boat...
Where did Prout get the 34 ft in the Ranger series, bigger accommodation space ? (we plan to live long periods on the boat so additional space is welcome).

Or does the 34ft Ranger only have longer hulls as it seems the hulls extend far aft? (same as the Iroquois has two sizes, taller one having extended hull at the stern)

Any info you might have is appreciated, as always ;-)


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## LookingForCruiser

I think I saw you posting on the Iroquois mailing lists... living aboard an Iroquois would be a challenge. More of a weekender kind of boat in my opinion. Some guy did circumnavigate though, and occasionally people cross the Atlantic in them.

It's very confined. You have to stoop over in the salon, it's about 4 and a half feet tall. Not sure how you'd do a separate shower, if that's what you're asking, really isn't much room for that. There's also not much tankage (water, holding, or fuel) in the boat, you'd have to add all that. And that of course adds a lot of weight, and starts to destroy your sailing performance...

Don't get me wrong, I do like the boat. I wouldn't consider it for liveaboard though.


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## sailingdog

Not familiar with the Prout Ranger series. They weren't very common on this side of the pond. Their Snowgooses are fairly common over here, but not the Ranger. I have been on the Snowgoose, and do like it...but it's a bit bigger than the Ranger. 

LookingforCruiser's points about the salon headroom in the Iroquois is a good one, but again it really depends on what your priorities are.


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## djeeke

sailingdog said:


> LookingforCruiser's points about the salon headroom in the Iroquois is a good one, but again it really depends on what your priorities are.


I agree salon headroom might be a showstopper, we'll know more once I visited one with my mrs...
Not sure the Ranger has standing headroom either, I guess we'll plan to go and see that as well in a while... (unless it's sold in the mean time...)


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## djeeke

What about the first series Gemini Catamarans?
Some are some within my budget...
These do have standing headroom I believe but then also a solid foredeck, is this very negative on this boat as I read they still perform quite well...
As usual all feedback is welcome


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## sailingdog

Djeeke—

The major differences between the 3000 series of Geminis and the 105 series of Geminis is the hull shape IIRC. IIRC, the change in the hull shape shifted the center of buoyancy for the hull outboard a slight bit, making the boat more capsize resistant. The solid foredeck is slightly more prone to slamming, but that is just because it is a solid foredeck.


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## twisty2

djeeke said:


> What about the first series Gemini Catamarans?
> Some are some within my budget...
> These do have standing headroom I believe but then also a solid foredeck, is this very negative on this boat as I read they still perform quite well...
> As usual all feedback is welcome


The one thing that is making me hesitant from grabbing up a gemini is that you have to look through the cabin to see forward. I'm short and I have been told the plexi eventually weathers making it even more difficult to see.


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## twinsdad

We took a look at the Gemini and thought the same thing. Had a tough time with the visibility, and the cockpit area felt a little cramped. My daughter felt the inside was also a little cramped. Also didn't have the feeling of sailing. Several people advised me against it, suggesting they don't last as long as other boats. I can't tell you whether that is accurate or not. However, there were also a lot of positives, starting with the price. I thought the stateroom was very comfortable and my wife loved the refrigerator/freezer. The relatively narrow beam is also a plus for slips. I also have to say that the people at Performance were very nice.

We opted to go with the Seawind 1000XL. The biggest drawback is price. Stateroom is not as nice as the Gemini, and the wider beam will prove more difficult obtaining slips and having choices of boat yards for maintenance and winter storage. Nonetheless, we felt it had some key advantages. Seems to be built better, very open feel in combined cockpit/salon, and forward hatches can be open in salon providing more of a sailing feel. The visibility was substantially better than for the Gemini. For a dedicated monohull sailor, it was a very fun sail. Love the idea of sleeping in the salon, making up for the lesser stateroom. The built in BBQ is a nifty feature, especially since we are usually on a mooring. Most importantly, it met with my wife's and kids' approval!!!


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## MSter

Take a look at the Victory 35. Although I have never seen one personally, they seem to be well designed and have a wider beam than the Gemini. They seem to have a good reputation and owner reviews. Although, I am not overly excited about the aux power setup as it employs a single, steerable, Sonic Cat Leg Drive.

These "cats" seem to be quite elusive even when just looking for internet pics. I am not sure how that would translate into support but I am sure there are owner groups.

Here's one I found for comparison: Sail Boat in Herrington Harbour North Yacht Yard, Maryland - 2001, Victory, 35 - Used Boats - Boat Classifieds - Buy a Boat - Sell a Boat


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## djeeke

MSter said:


> Take a look at the Victory 35.


Thanks for the hint but any 35 ft will probably be over my budget  
30/32 ft might match my budget but no recent build either...


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## therapy23

MSter said:


> These "cats" seem to be *quite elusive even when just looking for internet pics.* I am not sure how that would translate into support but I am sure there are owner groups.
> 
> Here's one I found for comparison: Sail Boat in Herrington Harbour North Yacht Yard, Maryland - 2001, Victory, 35 - Used Boats - Boat Classifieds - Buy a Boat - Sell a Boat


I have some pics of one I took for someone in Colorado to save him the first trip.
Don't know if the boat is still for sale though.


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## djeeke

therapy23 said:


> I have some pics of one I took for someone in Colorado to save him the first trip.
> Don't know if the boat is still for sale though.


Thanks for the proposal, if you click the link it is indeed listed as sold...
Anyway, 180.000 US$ is way over my budget...

My budget brings me to boats like the Iroquois,  OCEANIC MkIII , Prout Quest, Prout Ranger, Sea Cat, Hobart 900 amongst others... These are mostly boats built in the seventies...

I already did get some good feedback on the Iroquois and visited one to get an idea on the boat, unfortunately not in the water so no sailing impression...
Two negatives I have are standing headroom in the salon (but this is often the case on a cat this size and age) and the size of the berths (the doubles are more like large singles).
The Prout Ranger I mention is a 33 ft with 12.8 ft beam, according to the seller it does not seem to have more inside space than any other ranger, just the hulls are extending very far aft. Some feedback I got is that this is a very good (quality) built boat, apparently undercanvassed and not a very good windward sailing ability.

Anybody has any knowledge on any of the other mentioned boats ?

We are not so sure about the well known Catalac or Heavenly twin cats, some fall within our budget, we don't especially like the looks but never say never...


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## therapy23

OK,

From what I have read, you can't go wrong with a Catalac - no unhappy owners.

But you know you are going with older designs etc.

I need head room (6'4") and want to go to windward a little bit. I will probably end up with a Gemini to practice "Catting" locally and coastal. I don't know that I am fit enough for long open water stuff anyway. We shall see.

Luck to ya!


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## djeeke

*37 ft Rudy Choy Catamaran*

This one is on the high side of our budget but feasible...

1976 CSK Rudy Choy Catamaran sailboat for sale in California

Can anybody comment on this 37 ft cat ???


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## djeeke

*37 ft Polycon catamaran*

37' Polycon Catamaran (Sail)

Running into 37 ft boats today, within budget this one but the 'needs TLC' could bring it above...

Anyway, again, can anybody comment on this 37 ft cat ???


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## SLObrett

ttt


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## djeeke

hmmm

Nobody has ever seen or sailed a CSK / Polycon catamaran ?

I am still interested, this one : 37' CSK/Polynesian Concept on sailboatlistings with an asking price of 20 k might be a good candidate ....

Anybody know a good surveyor in California ? (PM me if you prefer)

I would obviously need to figure out what still needs to be done (time and $ wise) to get the boat in good shape !


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## sailingdog

Djeeke—

I've been on a boat that looks a lot like that 37' CSK...but it was almost 25 years ago, and I'm not sure if it was the same boat or one that just looks like it.  I don't remember the boat clearly enough to give you any detailed impressions of her in any case.  

SD


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## djeeke

Gee, thanks SD !!!
:laugher

It is now listed on ebay click here, Starting bid 15.000

The owner likes a good salestalk, he mentions someone from Europe is interested in buying his boat !
(hmm I wonder who that would be  )...

Funny thing is he is not getting back to me with replies to my questions...

Go figure !

Anyway I have been pointed out by several people this boat would not be a good ocean traveler. Excellent coastal cruiser though... (or maybe it could be OK if one strengthened the hulls as he mentions)

With the correct replies to me and some feedback from a reputable surveyor on ocean capability I would not even made a lower offer than the 20k he was asking previously...

But since he's not interested in selling to me, and especially with all the feedback I got, I'm not pursuing on this boat...

A 37 ft listed for months at 20k and not sold... This also tells a story... It looks like I'm off again looking at smaller but proven ocean capable boats !!!


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## sailingdog

If it didn't sell at $20000, it probably won't sell at $15000, as it probably has some serious issues with it...


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## djeeke

sailingdog said:


> If it didn't sell at $20000, it probably won't sell at $15000, as it probably has some serious issues with it...


Exactly what I meant by saying 
_A 37 ft listed for months at 20k and not sold... This also tells a story... _


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## djeeke

*Derek Kelsall*

Anybody got any idea's on Derek Kelsall designs ???

There is a 1993 Suncat 30 for sale in the UK very well within my budget, I sent the owner a request for information...

Will post any details if/when I get them !

So if anybody can comment on this design, please do


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## sailingdog

Kelsall's designs use a method of pre-fabricating the panels and then assembling them. He's got a fairly extensive *website*, but seems to be more focussed on selling his construction techniques than actually selling his boats IIRC. While I've not sailed on any of his boats, I'm not too crazy about what I see in his designs or the photos of his boats.


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## TQA

You might want to consider a Prout. There is a 34ft Snowgoose in Florida asking 55k at the moment.


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## thesnort

How about this one!: 2000 Caribe Catamaran Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
I know you said small, but "small" is such a relative term.
I wonder what the story is on this one. Has anyone heard of "Caribe" catamarans?


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## twinsdad

Separate issue, but wondering if someone could help me out. Looking to sell my boat as I am buying another one. Any recommendations as to which websites to use to list the boat? 

Thanks


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## djeeke

thesnort said:


> How about this one!: 2000 Caribe Catamaran Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
> I know you said small, but "small" is such a relative term.
> I wonder what the story is on this one.


Indeed I say small, we would only be a couple cruising...
Meaning both me and my wife should be able to sail the boat singlehanded...
A 48 ft is out of the question...

The add states bank repossession, looks like someone has not been able to pay his boat... This means an opportunity for someone looking fur such a boat...


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## djeeke

*Prout*



TQA said:


> You might want to consider a Prout. There is a 34ft Snowgoose in Florida asking 55k at the moment.


Good one TQA ,thanks ! I will contact the seller for more information.

Talking about Prout, any Prout owners care to comment on the Quest 33, Snowgoose 34 and Event 34 ? Since these boats are mostly around the same budget (Event a bit higher), are there big differences? Any model to be preferred ?


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## sailingdog

Good Old Boat magazine has web classifieds on their website, as does Points East Magazine IIRC. Craigslist and eBay are also choices. A lot of the bigger boat brokerage sites are limited to boat brokers.



twinsdad said:


> Separate issue, but wondering if someone could help me out. Looking to sell my boat as I am buying another one. Any recommendations as to which websites to use to list the boat?
> 
> Thanks


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## twinsdad

Thanks SD - You've come through again!!!! I don't care what Smackdaddy says!


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## djeeke

djeeke said:


> Good one TQA ,thanks ! I will contact the seller for more information.
> 
> Talking about Prout, any Prout owners care to comment on the Quest 33, Snowgoose 34 and Event 34 ? Since these boats are mostly around the same budget (Event a bit higher), are there big differences? Any model to be preferred ?


Got a little bit of feedback from the broker on that Snowgoose, not very much though  
Will try to prepare little list with questions...

Anything in particular that comes up in mind which I should ask ?

My other question on comparison between the different Prouts is still actual too, nobody seems to be aware of big differences which would mean any Prout is a good choice  
There are some quests33 available for sale too around our budget and I am even thinking of making an offer on an Event... (would need to postpone the cruising plans a bit though so not sure if I want this...)


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## djeeke

I'm also supposed to get feedback on the Suncat 30 today....
I'm curious ...


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## djeeke

Still no feedback on the Suncat  
Sending a reminder...

I did however get some feedback on my Prout query :


> "Event 34:- A move on from the 33 with modified hull and new deck. More beam and new stern profile. Interior updated as can be expected from the newest of your list. Increased aft cabin size including full double berth. In performance term , in my opinion the aft cabin mods ruined the sailing performance of this boat. Increased build weight and reduced flow through hulls and nacelle which again was increased to improve internal space."


Someone here to acknowledge or contradict this 

If this is true one is be better of choosing an older (and cheaper) Prout than the Event... 

Thanks !!!


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## djeeke

*search goes on*

Someone went to have a look at a Prout Event for me, it was priced attractively but apparently all required work would bring her far above my budget...

I keep on looking...

I might plan a boatseeing trip to France soon (might go to the UK as well)...

Some of the boats we want to have a look at (and your impression on any if you know these boats is appreciated as always)...
Sea Cat 34 I have no knowledge about this boat, anyone  
Hobart 900 & one Hobart 900 needing some TLC
Cité d'Aleth II which might turn up being too small in accomodation but seems to be an excellent sailor...

Maybe add a visit to a Comanche too but I am not sure about the size of the berths, reason for which we dropped the Iroquois of our list...
This Comanche is located south of Spain, a bit far away, eventual visit should be planned separately...
This Comanche and this one are over my budget, this one is closer to budget and all in France so maybe worth the detour...

As you might imagine, I'm pretty busy now trying to gather as much information as I can...


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## djeeke

Hi all !

Been pretty busy these days, unfortunately no boat seeing  
Anybody seen this spanish Cat for sale?
Wooden construction if the ad is right, pictures are small so not easy to see what boat I am looking at...
Thx !!!


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## djeeke

Lack of sidedeck will drop this of our list anyway, more interior space but no easy way forward...

While we're at it, trying to identify this "Toulbao" Catamaran too...

Any idea's somebody ?


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## djeeke

Got some feedback on the Toulbao Catamaran.
Amateur built, architect Fleury.
The ad is all but clear and the pictures are not recent... It is in worse condition than described and needs a lot of tlc. Only one engine is fitted, the other one is removed and needs to be refitted, all mast, rigging and outside parts have been removed and need to be refitted. He mentions a new sail in the ad, from the mail I understand this might not be the case.
Only one interior pic in the ad, probably prior to the dismanteling. As now the interior has been completely dismantled and only partially rebuilt, electrics, electronics, etc, all needs to be reinstalled.
Looks like they bought the boat to rebuild it a few years ago and now quit this project as they might have underestimated the workload and associated costs...
The very same reason why I don't want to get involved in a total refurbishing or building of a boat myself.
Maybe something for amateur boat builders to finish what they started, not for me...


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## modul8

Crowther Catamaran 38ft
big cat in good shape for the $$$ ??


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## djeeke

modul8 said:


> Crowther Catamaran 38ft
> big cat in good shape for the $$$ ??


Thanks for the hint M8...








Looks like an open bridgedeck so we'll pass, might be OK for the pacific but around Europe


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## djeeke

*John Hitch Catamaran*

OK, different from the Crowther ...

I just came across the John Hitch Catamaran below, it was listed in New Zealand for NZ$124,000... (not for sale anymore)
This is not a lot of money for a 41 ft catamaran...









I had never heard of John Hitch Catamarans before... (probably because he's from the other hemisphere )
Anybody knows this catamaran or John Hitch ?

As I am looking for a Catamaran it might be worthwhile for me to look at his boats if one comes on the market... As long as it sails correctly off course  
It does not appear to have keels so I guess it must have swing boards (dagger boards would be visible when beached) or asymmetric hulls, anyone ?

Thanks !!


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## djeeke

Looking at one of the other pictures in the ad :










That looks like deep V hulls ...
Don't they imply very bad windward ability


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## damies

Djeeke,

If your prepared to go to NZ for a cat, from my searches months ago I found that there many cats and tris at tempting prices in NZ at this web site http://www.trademe.co.nz

From the main page goto "Cars, bikes & boats", "Boats for sale" should be obvious from there, seems to be the kiwi equivalent to ebay

Before buying my tri I was tempted considering buying in NZ and sailing back to Oz.


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## djeeke

Ran into an old ad mentioning the Heavenly Twins bigger sister...

The Ocean Winds :










She looks heavy so will probably not be a racing boat...
But the designer, Pat Patterson took her around the world, 400 years after Sir Francis Drake, following Drake's route as closely as possible. 

Anybody has any knowledge to share on this catamaran ?


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## djeeke

I just got pointed out by someone to multihullcentre.co.uk/mhcwoods
Two Woods boats for sale there (I knew the link but am thankful, maybe one day someone shows me a site I don't know with the boat we will buy...)

When I read Flica I get a sour feeling, 'Ocean Link' was sold prior to even being able to arrange a visit (and I contaced the owners even before they were back in Europe...)










This was before many investments (including mine) were hit...
I could have been sailing now instead of searching on a low budget...

But these things happen...
I'm not feeling too bad about it, the Flica is a great boat.

I'm actually going to Holland tomorrow and I hope to have a look at a Sagitta










Will try to give my feedback about the boat...

As for the Mira on the above listed site, afaik this is an open bridgedeck catamaran, probably a nice boat but not really what we are looking for...


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## djeeke

djeeke said:


> I'm actually going to Holland tomorrow and I hope to have a look at a Sagitta
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Will try to give my feedback about the boat...


 
The boat pictures I got from the owner do not represent the current state at all, as far as I am concerned this one requires a major overhaul...  
I guess the pictures are a bit dated...
I also believe it has been pushed hard as the owner told me they only reefed in a gale ("I sailed her without reef up to 7 Bft")...
I don't know what Richard recommendations are but not reefing in a near gale sounds to me as pushing the boat...
Too bad, it was well withing budget reach...


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## TSOJOURNER

Hi,
I ran across your thread and thought I should comment on the Polycon cat so you will have a better understanding of these boats.

Polynesian Concept Catamarans was founded by actor Buddy Ebsen at the beginning of the 70's
The Polycon 37 was an enlarged and somewhat reworked development of Buddy's original 35' _Polynesian Concept_ that won the multihull class on corrected time in the 1968 TransPac. She also smashed the Isle Of Whyte course record the following year. she was old-school cold-molded, built over a male destructive, just like Ken Murphey's _Aikani_, or Jim Arness' _Seasmoke_ 
Polycons are a C/S/K design, principally Rudy Choy, and the only one of his designs having symmetrical hulls. Warren Seamen, creator of the Malibu Cat, who along with Alfred Kumalai had built _Polynesian Concept_, did some of the engineering and Schock boats built the female tooling and the first 6 boats. These boats had internal spade rudders, polyester resin, and lower quality coring materials than the boats that came after, but were still ok as they were hand-laid by experienced crews. The boat you showed for $55,000 early in the thread, is a Schock-built Polycon. It has been butchered by adding those two heavy, smelly lumps of iron to each hull, and the drag of two props attached to them - rendering it useless as a beach cat - what a waste!
There were an additional 6 boats built in Santa Ana, California in a facility Buddy leased. The glass team was lead by Englishman Jack Holmes - an absolute expert in hand layup. These boats were not all completed on site. A
few were delivered as partially completed 'kits' , though all the critical work was still done in-shop.
I own _Invictus _, she is hull #10, and has externally-hung high-aspect rudders. She is essentially a 37'6" 6,000lb beach cat, with 2 heads, a galley, and can support a racing crew of 7, or week-long cruses with 4.
Hull is hand-laid glass over Airex PVC core & vinylester resin, and she has African mahogany in her keels to strengthen her for regular beaching. Daggerboards are laminated African mahogany and Shagbark Hickory, with Triax carbon skins. 
Internal elemental structures are the same as with all C/S/Ks - 4 hollow-core laminated marine plywood/cedar bulkheads paired into 2 'super-boxes' - Resorcinol glue and bronze ship-nails are used in the assembly of the wood structures, which are then glassed into place. Even by today's standards, this makes a very light, rigid structure.
Contrary to some assumptions made elsewhere in this thread, these are blue-water performance boats. They come from a design heritage that began with the lovely Manu Kai - built right on Waikiki beach in 1947. She survived 48 years of beach charter work in the open waters there, and the C/S/K boats that followed her set every open Pacific course record there was, as well as a double-handed 'round the world record.
The Polycons have high bridgedeck clearance so they don't pound in a seaway like modern cruising cats do. They have plenty of reserve buoyancy in their bows, and narrow/fine hull profiles with plenty of rocker along the keel line. These are classic Pacific Voyaging Canoe features that adapt the boats well to big wave motion. 
Having said all this, now for the down side . . . every boat is a trade off. Polycons are not beginner boats if you intend to push them. They don't have the beam, weight, and frac rig of the modern behemoth cruising cats, so they can become a real handful to the uninitiated in moderate to heavy air. You have to think way ahead. They accelerate like a squid, and can easily be pushed to reckless speeds. If you overtake waves to quickly with apparent wind behind your ears, sooner or later you will boneyard the boat. Stabbing the bows of a 37' cat through the back of a large wave at 18-20 knots is just begging for trouble. The other thing is weight. They don't like it. If you must take potted palms, bicycles and the dumbell set aboard with you, the Polycon is not the boat. And lastly, the space issue; These boats could accurately be classified as 'sportboats' before there was ever such a classification - Basic amenities without performance compromise. By today's cat standards, this is more like a 32' boat that a 37' boat below. There is ample headroom, but forget about the 4 double staterooms. That only comes with chubby hulls and 4-5 times the weight.

Other trivia -
Polycons were designed for single auxiliary 35hp XX-longshaft outboard, or a small single fixed engine with retracting drive leg. These are placed below the center of the cockpit, under a hatch. The fuel was also down in the fresh air under the bridgedeck in a protected alcove. There is no fuel or machinery inside the boat or cockpit.
Under auxiliary power, my boat with 45hp Honda & hydrodynamic extension cruises at 12 knots and has a top speed in calm water of 16 knots. Between 4and 9 knots, the engine cannot be heard, nor is there any perceptible vibration below.

Old war stories -
_Invictus_ finished 2nd behind bob Hanel's 63' catamaran _Double Bullet _ in the 1979 Newport To Ensenada Race. There were almost 600 boats in the fleet.
I am aware of three TransPac races that included Polycons, and one made the California-Hawaii crossing 4 times.

This is a good boat for:
A couple that is physically fit, and grew up racing beach cats or one-design dinghies.

Local races, Pacific passage Races.

3-10 day cruises for two couples or a couple with 1-2 kids.
People who want to experience what 'Jed Clampit', Marshall Dillon, and their Hawaiian surfer buddies were so excited about.

Best of luck on finding your perfect boat - I've found mine.

Phil


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## djeeke

*Ocean Winds 33*

Hi guys !

This thread seems to die when I'm not around, we spent some time visiting hospitals and doctors ...

Then we saw an ad for a 33ft Ocean Winds Catamaran, listed at 45000Euro ...

By the ad we were led to believe the boat was in reasonable condition, It had recieved two brand new engines two years ago, it had just been out of the water for an antifouling, the deck had been repainted etc...

So off we went, booked a week in Sardinia to go and see the boat...

Where we saw the boat was in terrible shape !!! :hothead

Yes it did have new engines, only 3.5 hours, started by the owner without even checking the oil levels (and the boat had not left its mooring for ages)
Yes the deck had been repainted but without anti-skid (plain dangerous, extremely slippery when wet) so obviously the deck needed another repainting with anti-skid...
We went for a test-sail...
No wind instruments operational, display broken...
No boat speed on the log... Depth OK
The owner did not even know how to power up the compass (which seemed to function)
Autopilot not operational
radio non operational
Impossible to fully hoist the main sail (mast slide issue ?)
running rigging in terrible condition requires replacement
problems furling and unfurling the genoa
3 of the 4 deck selftailing winches were not operational, very old winches (Telo 160, 200 and 220) who will need replacement (the working one was already a newer winch, Lewmar 16, too small for this boat, main halyard winch is on the mast)
Sails in bad condition, they had been left on boom and forestay for 4 years instead of being taken of and stored inside... Genoa needed restitching, main maybe too but both sails required a big cleaning job...
Although the rigging had been replaced 4 years ago the attachments to the chainplates requires attention
Owner not aware how the GPS operates, I had my own GPS with me...
When we returned the owner gave me the keys so I could inspect the boat at my own pace.
Fuel smell inside the boat, port fuel tanks were sitting in diesel and apparently already since a long time (fuel hoses, repainting of bilge and fuel tanks
The boat needs a full electric rewiring, household wiring had been used, contacts corroded, log on nav station completely disconnected...
No separate house batteries installed (removed when the new engines were installed)
solar panels not operational
The rudder on starboard side was cracked (for how long?) and requires a big job done...
When we looked at the engines, they obviously looked nice but under the port engine there was water after the test sail, not before ! Where is the leak ???
The fridge not operational on 12V, not operational on gas, mains not tested...
Water gas heater burns, impossible to change the temperature setting.
All rubber gas hoses to be replaced.
Owner was unable to tell us how to light the oven so we don't know if this was functional (guess it's OK)
Owner was unable to explain how to operate the holding tank, head set to 'sea' position and I could not move it to the holding tank position (maybe by trying harder) so I guess these vanes require replacement, how to empty the holding tank ?
Windlass requires overhaul...
and so on...

Needless to say we were not so happy... Owner told us not to deduct all the repair costs from the asking price...

While we were in the harbour the boat got hit by a cowboy in a motor boat !!! We informed the owner who came to the boat and repaired the bow with a gelcoat repair kit left there by the previous owner, without proper cleaning/degreasing etc... We were astonished by his attitude, there were two witnesses on board of his boat when this happened and still he just did a quick and dirty fix...

Anyway, we left home and started to search for repair estimates, certainly a lot of work but might do a lot ourselves trying to keep the price down. (my wife really loved the layout of the boat and that counts)

We then got a message from the owner to look at the ad, he dropped the asking price by 20.000 so was now asking 25.000 for the boat.

We thought this was a reasonable price and replied asking him if he would reserve the boat while we arranged for a survey, we stated we would pay the asking price if the structure was sound (no delamination or osmosis)...
We kept on exchanging some messages and he even proposed himself to phone the yard to provide me a quote.

By today I agreed with a surveyor I would give him a job. We needed to schedule a hauling with a shipyard.

And I now just got an e-mail stating the boat has been sold 

I sincerely hope that whoever is buying Atreyu, a 1980 Ocean Winds 33 will read this post so they know the boat they bought is NOT seaworthy and is a lot of time and money away from being so... Whoever this is, feel free to contact me !
The owner has proven he can not be trusted so there might even be a lot more issues than what I already found, after all, I'm not a surveyor...

Needless to say we are really disappointed ...
It was not for now...
The right boat will come ...


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## twinsdad

Unfortunately, a few bad apples spoil the bunch. Hope you have better experiences going forward.


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## djeeke

Another boat missing in this thread ...

The Aristocat... This is an old ad of one already sold but it has good pictures...

It certainly looks like it is a low budget Cat with cruising capabilities...
Not sure about slapping / bridgedeck height (as they are related somewhere with the Gemini's?)...
One negative point I find is the very narrow passage forward, even obstructed by the boards... (but some were built with keels)
I love the big sliding hatch (maybe because I have one on my own boat  )

Has anyone been on one ?
Can you comment on sailing capabilities?
I read they are quite good performers.

We would like to have a look at one to make up our own mind on the designs so if someone happens to know one that would be for sale we would like to hear from it...
I know there is one listed for sale with a custom dog house but the brokers are not up to date, I have already been in direct contact with the owner...


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## djeeke

*Another Aristocat*

Hi all !

If someone is up to a major project (too much for me to handle) ...
I have found another Aristocat for sale in France.
As far as I understand it is an unfinished project which has been abandoned some time ago...








Transoms extended by 3 ft and 2 Yanmar 1GM10 engines on saildrives have been installed, boards have been replaced by keels and it has a raised cabintop. The interior is almost empty. Rudders not fixed on the new transoms, engine conducts to install (fuel lines, cooling water, exhaust, ...)
The owner has a recent (French) survey report available. (I have recieved a copy) The surveyor made an estimate on the value of the boat, this is way too high !!! Therefore the current asking price is way too high too as the seller will find out should someone interested show up...
If interested, send me a PM, I can forward the survey report and the seller's details, if required I can translate...
But expect a lot of work on this one...


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## thesnort

Star Trek shuttle? Is that a monohull or catamaran?


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## twinsdad

I nominate it for a giant plant holder!


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## djeeke

I was pointed out to a Proto Erector 34 catamaran listed at 32000 Euro, as you can see the ad does not list much, neither are there any pictures...

I have contacted the owners and have obtained some pics, here are two of them :

















This will not be a cruising cat for us....
If anybody is interested, I can forward all the pictures... (no interior pics)


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## djeeke

djeeke said:


> Talking about Prout, any Prout owners care to comment on the Quest 33, Snowgoose 34 and Event 34 ? Since these boats are mostly around the same budget (Event a bit higher), are there big differences? Any model to be preferred ?


Did not get much feedback on this one, no Prout sailors on Sailnet ?
I'll make it easier, I'll add in a few models and take the event out 

Prout Quest 31
Prout Quest 33
Prout Snowgoose 34
Prout Snowgoose 35

Any feedback / comparison would be appreciated, also if you prefer one specific one out of these, tell us why 

I do understand from previous feedback that the Snowgooses have a big tendency to hobbyhorse, is this also true for the Quest ?


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