# New Passport rules



## kennya (Jul 10, 2006)

What effect will the new Passport rules have on costal cursing? It looks like we are closing our borders, if I were to say take a trip from Jacksonville to Fort Lauderdale, what kind of reception can I expect? 
See
http://travel.msn.com/Guides/article.aspx?cp-documentid=347751&GT1=8599


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

And exactly what part of that trip from JAX to FLL involves crossing a US border at any time?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

No US citizen needs a passport to travel within a state or to and from any state of the United States. However, if you leave the jurisdiction of the Unted States, that is United States Territory, including its territorial waters, different rules apply. The new passport rules are simply an extension of rules that were previously required for travel to and from certain designated foreign countries and now have (or soon will be) extended to Canada, Mexico and other Countries. Mexico had previously required only some form of official ID and would issue a Visa. You may anticipate that Mexico and Canada will begin requiring passports in response. In any event, a passport is the best form of identification you can carry any time you are outside the US. Be of SOUND HEART; your passport id photo will be just as flattering as your driver's license photo! Please don't carry a Republic of Texas passport. A friend of mine, a state district judge, tried this some years ago, as a joke, at the US-Canada border. They were not amused!


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## kennya (Jul 10, 2006)

I would know as well as any one else that cruses the us costs I /they had never left us waters, But when entering a none home port who is to say.


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## MSN2Travelers (Sep 12, 2006)

*Hmmm ....*



kennya said:


> What effect will the new Passport rules have on costal cursing? It looks like we are closing our borders, if I were to say take a trip from Jacksonville to Fort Lauderdale, what kind of reception can I expect?
> See
> http://travel.msn.com/Guides/article.aspx?cp-documentid=347751&GT1=8599


Interesting question. This could apply to those of us that sail on the Great Lakes as-well-as private pilots that operate anywhere near our borders too. How will the Gov know if we crossed an international border or just sailed/flew within a reasonable distance of the border.

My guess is nothing will happen but I would think having and carrying a passport is a thing of the future for even coastal cruisers.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"But when entering a none home port who is to say."
Entering a port is not the same thing as entering the US. You enter the US some 3-200 miles offshore, as you enter the territorial waters. And yes, these days? Big Brother has been tracking you, especially near south american waters and known drug sources.
You may be asked to show your log or other proof of where you've been and where you're coming from, but any harbor patrol can stop you and ask the same thing anywhere. Even in Kansas.


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## kennya (Jul 10, 2006)

That is my thought.


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## Canibul (Sep 1, 2006)

Once you're cleared in, that paperwork should suffice while you work your way around the coast. If you have a foreign registered boat, and its obvious, you might be asked by the US Coast Guard. I doubt it, unless you've named your boat "The Wrath of Osama" or something similar...

Its no big deal if its all legit. They stop commercial boats as well, especially fishermen. They might even be helpful to you if you have questions or gear issues. Its been known to happen.


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## paulk (Jun 2, 2000)

*Big Bro*

If you're worried about having to go through formalities upon entering a U.S. port, the thing to do is to use your cellphone consistently during any cruise. The ID/locator in your cellphone provides the FBI a readily verifiable track of where you've been and when. (No warrants necessary, of course. It takes too long (15minutes?) to get those.) They'll be able to see at a glance that you've never left the USSR, (oops- typo.: U.S.A.) without even telling you they're checking. On the other hand, if you ARE worried about having to go through formalities upon entering a U.S. port, maybe there's a reason that you're worried, and that might that be enough to give them grounds to confiscate your vessel. November's coming. Think before you vote this time.


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## Dewey Benson (Jun 28, 2006)

For the most part Big Bro does watch over the seaways and knows when a boat makes an approach into US waters. 

This is a pretty easy trick here on the west coast where it is wide open sea. No where to run to baby, no where to hide (as the song goes). 

But even this breaks down at times. Once in the early 90's Wifey and I sailed into Mission Bay to spend a weekend and were aproached by a harbor patrol vessel in the entrance channel asking us to prepare to be boarded. I had recently had the hull awlgripped black with gold trim and replied to them to let me get my fenders out. This was on a winters day with only the hard core sailors out (musta been 60 degrees out we So-cal guys are kinda spoiled), very little boat traffic.

As he approached closer he sings out "how long have you been out?". 

"About 3 1/2 hours" I reply

" Where did you come from?" he incredulously shot back.

"San Diego Bay, Silvergate yacht club" I said pointing at my shiny little burgee snapping in the breeze. Old "Athena" was way to clean and sparkly to have been on any extended cruise.

"Oh sorry, we must have missed you." Was the reply. They waived us on by looking a little stupified.

I guess they were expecting someone else.

Dewey


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"the thing to do is to use your cellphone consistently during any cruise."

How far offshore has anyone successfully used a cell phone, without an external amplifier or external antenna? 

I'm told the cell tower system will allow distances of up to 32 miles (it actually tolerates the signal turnaround time delay needed by that much distance, it doesn't know miles per se) but in practice, I've been on a boat where we played "Who's got two bars?" with a couple of carriers and phones and at 3-3.5 miles from shore (towers known to be on water towers somewhere a little further in) it seemed like calls were just at the threshold of dropping.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

PaulK-

Most cell phone plans don't have free minutes...so using them just to prove I wasn't leaving the country is really not my idea of a good way to spend money.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"Most cell phone plans don't have free minutes"
You serious? There are four major carriers in the US, at least three of them offer free nights and weekends, and at the biggest two offer unlimited free calls to anyone else on the same network. Heck, I know someone with a prepaid phone who even gets free weekend minutes and free calls to anyone else on his carrier!


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## Fridge (Nov 15, 2005)

While there are some interesting and valid questions being presented here I would like to include some information that may disturb some folks. If you are boating along the East Coast, the waters are filled with devices that listen to and identify your vessel (if you venture out more than about 10 miles or so). These tracking devices can pinpoint not only your location but the route you took. This is in addition to radar identification by Coast Guard patrols, etc.

This also applies to general aviation. As long as you are not taking any type of evasive action or erratic flying, you will constantly be in contact with one Center or another. You will also have filed a flight plan. Deviation of your flight plan without notifying ATC, particularly if an international border might be involved, could result in a serious violation.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

hellosailor said:


> "Most cell phone plans don't have free minutes"
> You serious? There are four major carriers in the US, at least three of them offer free nights and weekends, and at the biggest two offer unlimited free calls to anyone else on the same network. Heck, I know someone with a prepaid phone who even gets free weekend minutes and free calls to anyone else on his carrier!


I'm not talking about nights and weekends. Nights don't really help anyone, as they start at 9:00 pm for most companies and end at 7:00 am, missing the prime time to be awake and out sailing. Weekend minutes, free or not still don't account for the fact that you need to a) have the battery life on the phone, and b) have someone to talk to for that time. I'd rather be sailing. Also, cell reception in a lot of the waters I sail is flaky at best... you must sail only within sight of a major metro area if you're able to get good reception on your boat the whole time you're sailing it.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Fridge, the listening devices listen mainly for engine noises. Passive acoustic arrays and sailboats don't always work out well, case in point being how every few years either a whale or a submarine has an "incident" with a sailboat. In fact, when the USCG Notice to Mariners used to be mainly a print publication, the annual master guide in Distrcit #1 gave special extensive warnings about submarine "surfacing" warnings. (Like, if you're up by Groton or New London or the approaches leading in from the ocean, and a smoke pot or bouy pops up, BUG OUT OF THE AREA.<G>)
Similarly, the classified intelligence systems including the satellites, even if they are targeted on your area and even if they have shown your boat, WILL NEVER BE USED to give information about your boat. Several Senators, including Moynihan, tried to get sat photos used in the search for Coyote when she went missing in the North Atlantic some years ago. DoD refused, quite rightly saying that ANY information they released would compromise the capabilities of the system. That's still current policy, unless you've got Osama on board and you've missed your landfall, that gear does not exist.

*Sailingdog-*

I appreciate your point, especially about range. I'm curious to know what others have found. On the east US, with the ICW and I95 and the coastal cities, there ARE a lot of towers on the coast. And of course, there are very few foreign ports you can reach quickly enough to scoot back home and still make the 9PM-7AM free minutes. (ok 7PM for some Sprint users.<G>) Let's see...14 hours of paid minutes, 7 hours each way to make a mad dash to another country....I guess you could only slip out for a fast passage to the Bahamas unless you had hydrofoils and a turbine engine hidden in the keel.<G>
Not such a bad idea though, most plans run $40/300+ minutes often $40/500 minutes, and by making one or two 30-second calls during the day, a whole ten minutes of airtime during any given week, you COULD document your location, if you were worried about it.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Looks like we have gone from passport rules into cellphone electronics and political positions in the coming November elections. Did I miss something or do you think that maybe a new thread should have been startd?


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## chuck5499 (Aug 31, 2003)

i guess i do not understand the question - i brought my boat from Annapolis to Miami and was off shore from Cape Fear River to FLL - we often sail to the keys on the outside and do overnight passages from key west to miami and many time may be closer to the bahamas than the US. we pull in and put her in the slip and go home - we don't report to immigaration or anyone else. 
When we do go to the bahamas then we report in as we must. 
what is the difference from driving a car from North Carolina or Key West to Miami vs going via water -- 
help me understand please 
chuck and soulmates


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## ebs001 (May 8, 2006)

Chuck, you actually raise a very interesting question. There is a difference. Driving a car you are governed by the same regular laws of citizenship and imigration, but once you go to sea,. Billy, maritime law also enters into the mix. Maritime law is as archaic as Noah's ark. But there is some logic. When you drive a little deviation to pick up drugs, terrorist or weapons of mass destruction in international territory is `impossible. This is not the case when travalling by sea. When you travelled from Cape Fear to Florida you were probably outside the 12 mile limit and therefore should have checked in with Customs. Most people don't but that's the law. No one knows what exactly is going to happen once the new law comes into effect, but if you plan to go into or near international waters a passport or a "passport like document" may be necessary. Thanks again, Osama!!


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

ebs-
"When you travelled from Cape Fear to Florida you were probably outside the 12 mile limit and therefore should have checked in with Customs."
I DO appreciate that, but by the same logic then a flight from NY to FL would have to come through customs--as the the "fast" route down goes offshore south of Hatteras and even the inland route is allowed to be 50 miles offshore. (Commercial aircraft more than 50 miles offshore must carry different equipment, surprisingly enough the route you fly on any particular day may vary because of the particular aircraft making the trip.)

Now,before you say "Ah, but an aircraft is under the pilot's control..." Yes, but the pilot is just a Captain of a vessel. Same-same as a sailboat, legally.

I think you're only required to check in if you have visited another country--as opposed to having left US territorial waters, or the US "economic interest zone", 200 miles. For the same reason that commercial fisherman don't have to check in--if they haven't been in another country.


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## ebs001 (May 8, 2006)

If you go outside the 12 mile limit you are suppose to check in, that's what a customs official told me. Logical??? you've got to be kidding!!!


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## Canibul (Sep 1, 2006)

I wasnt aware of any regulation that required the captain of a pleasure boat to even know the difference between 11.9 miles and 12.1 miles, or to have equipment that measures and records that distance offshore, and whats "offshore"? High tide mark? Nearest sandbar? What tide? In some places "shore" goes in and out half a mile several times a day. Most current chart? Sand bars down here move with the longshore currents faster than a chart can be updated. I could drop the hook at 12 miles offshore, and in 24 hours without moving I would have to alert customs four times that I had crossed the line?


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## ebs001 (May 8, 2006)

Once the new passport rules come into effect, you had better be aware of all these new rules entail or you may find yourself outside looking in. I realize it's crazy but in Congress and the Department of Homeland Security are the ones making and enforcing the rules....not me


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## Shack (Sep 5, 2006)

*Spoiled Rotten*

You guys really struck a nerve!!

*I find it hard believe that there are people out there that . . .*

1) believe that vessels coming "inbound" into any country (anywhere) shouldn't be proven legit.

2) equate the USA w/ the old USSR because the US allows anyone to leave the country whenever they want to, but only asks question when one enters. Oh my God!! Start up the Gulag!! (how soon we forget.)

3) believe a passport is a new thing re international travel.

C'mon, now!! Can/Mex and Caribbean requirements were an EXCEPTION to the rule and a LUXURY that Americans can ill afford. All I see here is people whinning about loosing a luxury. (Spoiled?)

A passport fee pales in comparison to what you have on your ocean going boats. Holy Cow!! I've dropped more on the bar for my men - just to show my appreciation for their work. (Spoiled?)

The people of the US are a "community" - and like any society IT IS A TEAM SPORT. If you don't want to be a member, then I suggest you turn in your jersey and go anchor off the 12 mile limit and stay there.

I keep hearing from my international friends that "Americans are a spoiled race" and "don't appreciate what they've got." Gee I wonder why.

*Before you'all start into politics let me stop you right there. * Politics is nothing but maneuvering for control and power. Last time I checked Americans Citizens still run this country - not Dems, Reps, Greens, or Indpnt's. News outlets are nothing more than more formalized gossip full of errors, agendas, and generalities that you would likewise eat-up around the water cooler at work. Better take all that with a huge grain of salt (a salt lick more like it) until you go over there and see what's happeing for yourself. People go where they're fed and politicians are simply trying to feed the public issues that will get them into or maintain power. Sadley enough - so is the press. Human nature I guess ("pick-a-little-talk-a-little cheep cheep cheep . . .") I wish all elected officials got minumum wage and then see who runs for office.

No, this is *about a dotted line on a map *that has been there for a LONG time - not politics. No rules have changed, just loop holes being closed. If you want to ***** about it I suggest you go to Arlington and start there before you cross the river.

Yes - I am in the military, and I'll think about all of you when I pack my seabag in 5 months to relieve my friends currently fighting on the other side of the "dotted-line." If you want to split hairs on the issue with me - you'd better open your eyes, bring your big picture to the game and start a new thread. I'm starting at circa 600 AD - and we'll hit theology, sociology, and world resources along the way. I will refuse to acknowledge any issues about soldiers being killed after they volunteered for military service - its a red herring, and I don't care what country they're fighting in. I can't stand it when people try to preserve life, comfort, or convenience to the deteriment of everyone else's.

WOW! What a rant! . . . that felt better though.

_"A ship is more than just a hull, sails, and a rudder . . . its freedom."_


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## Canibul (Sep 1, 2006)

My family's been disgruntled with USA politics ever since the War of Northern Agression. I feel an obligation to maintain the integrity of my cultural heritage.

And Americans have the right to ***** about the government. And just because the Government makes a rule doesnt make it a good rule. Examples of the US Government always being "right"?? Oh, how bout Prohibition? How bout Ruby Ridge? Waco ? Yeah, you can always trust the government.

There is no such thing as a 'good' law. Good people dont need laws to do the right thing, and bad people ignore the laws anyhow.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Shack...Amen! 
*"I wish all elected officials got minumum wage and then see who runs for office*."

No....you'd see a minimum wage of $100 an hour! With 3 months of paid vacation for all!


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## ebs001 (May 8, 2006)

Shack, what you are saying is that your going to Bagdad to fight for their freedom, but that we are not allowed to the basic freedom to criticize the our government. Makes perfect sense to me.


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## Shack (Sep 5, 2006)

*"Passports" Good! . . . "Loop Holes" Bad!*



ebs001 said:


> Shack, what you are saying is that your going to Bagdad to fight for their freedom, but that we are not allowed to the basic freedom to criticize the our government. Makes perfect sense to me.


*EBS - wrong.*
Stay on target, please. I did not write that you couldn't or shouldn't criticize your government. You pulled that out of thin air. To the contrary, I even encourged more criticism by offering anyone who wanted to "split hairs" on the topic to start a new thread. (my post is still there) I never told anyone to shut up, or that they should not speak their mind.

. . . But just because one is being critical of their gov't doesn't mean one is exempt from a response. Why would anyone feel that their speach rights are being trampled on when an opposing viewpoint is similarly voiced? Where does THAT come from?

I don't know for sure, EBS, but what you appear to be saying is that you are uncomfortable with my counter-criticism. You somehow interpret it as some attempt of silencing. *Freedom of speech does not exclude accountabilty for one's own words. * People don't get to say/write anything they want and not expect to elicit a response.

*Canibul - Damn Rebs!!  *
Sorry, my family wasn't yet in the disunited states went that whole thing went down. 
AND
No, the gov't isn't always correct - right with you on that one man! I've seen enough in my short lifetime to agree with that. Hell, I work for the gov't and have seen (and still do) some pretty screwed up stuff. Makes your blood boil sometimes (even the little stuff). However, gov'ts are more reactive than proactive. This is due to political agendas being driven by the passions of the people and less on whether something is a wise or prudent idea. "Remember the Maine!" "Trail of Tears" "Manifest Destiny" "Desert One" . . . not to mention domestic issues . . .

*As far as passports go *- they're a good thing! I say again, "They are a good thing!" It is a program already established that has reasonable effetiveness (with the current exeptions of Can/Mex & Caribbean). It permits Customs and USCG to do their jobs more efficiently whereas previously it was loop holed. I agree with the new policy, and an relieved that the Congress _actually passed something_ that starts to strengthen our borders.

I_n lieu of criticizing things it is also perfectly acceptable to agree with or support them as well as to criticize the opposition. That's also my right._


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## Shack (Sep 5, 2006)

*Elitists? or Spoiled?*

Maybe people think that they should be the exception to the rule? Do they think that they are different from everybody else?

Are they elite?
This thought seems to go along with being spoiled . . .
I kinda see an ascot, a martini glass, and a little blue "skipper" hat.

God help me, it seems so simple, you get a passport and put it in your pocket. . . . these same people "sail" boats?


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## Shack (Sep 5, 2006)

*COMRAD*

Min wage - no kidding. I bet they still wouldn't pay into socialist security. Whoops - not sure if I want to go there on this thread!!


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## Canibul (Sep 1, 2006)

I've had to have a current passport since 1967, so actually I agree with you, its a good thing. Its fun to flash it to snippy little clerks at hotels etc. who want a picture-ID. They never know what to do with a passport. So they always ask, "dont you have a license or something else?" and I give em a pilots license...that screws em up too. Little bureaucratic wannabees....


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## Shack (Sep 5, 2006)

Canibul - 
No doubt - what a shame. You could probably show'em a video rental card and they'd ok it. 

Of course, as long as you have a currency or a cerrrrredit card - I'm sure that they'd do anything you want. To bad snippy little clerks give you such a hard time. 
_
"You want to use a what? . . . a passport?"
"Mister, you could've gotten that anywhere." "I suppose the next thing you'll want is clean sheets and complementary soap!!' "The nerve of some people."_

Course thats why they're behind the desk working for money and not on the oter side spending it. Poor souls.


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## mike dryver (May 13, 2006)

shack i couldn't agree with you more i was a foreigner 46 yrs ago. the problem today as yesterday most people have been programmed to believe every thing the media says about conservatism. don't take out of context. this country was somewhat founded on these ideals. not on liberalism. liberalism (socialism) is what caused the problems in Europe and has taken over here. parties don't mean crap any more. the people here have had it way to easy to long and now can't stand it when they are told that they have to actually be inconvenienced. heaven forbid the gov. that's trying to protect us wants to know who we are and what we are doing. it could be a slippery slope but if the govt. isn't allowed to check on people how can they stop the people who would do us harm. sorry for the rant been brewing for a while . regards all mike


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

hellosailor said:


> ebs-
> "When you travelled from Cape Fear to Florida you were probably outside the 12 mile limit and therefore should have checked in with Customs."
> I DO appreciate that, but by the same logic then a flight from NY to FL would have to come through customs--as the the "fast" route down goes offshore south of Hatteras and even the inland route is allowed to be 50 miles offshore. (Commercial aircraft more than 50 miles offshore must carry different equipment, surprisingly enough the route you fly on any particular day may vary because of the particular aircraft making the trip.)
> 
> Now,before you say "Ah, but an aircraft is under the pilot's control..." Yes, but the pilot is just a Captain of a vessel. Same-same as a sailboat, legally.


Actually, checking in if you've been outside the 12 mile limit does make sense. * Commercial aircraft may fly 50 miles offshore, but it is very unlikely that they stopped mid-air to pick anyone up.* That is not the case with a boat. _However, it would be fairly easy to pick someone up and bring them into the country, if you met with a foreign-flagged vessel in international waters. _ That's why they have that requirement.


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## Notsosalty (Sep 19, 2006)

Hello, as a fresh fish, I've been reading a number of threads here to educate myself along with other sites and the good old standby, printed word. I just finished reading about entry in to the US. just last week and I think it goes about like this. If you are foreign, you check in with customs at the closest international port of entry. Just as you would entering into any other country. There are four different inspections to go through. I'm Canadian living in the Great Lakes area and so this is something I need to understand. 

For Americans, if you come in contact with another vessle or stop at any port or anchorage outside of the US. you must clear customs upon your return. Just like returning from any trip out of the country.

If you often cross the border there is something called the I 68 form that allows you to bypass the inspections after you've been cleared but you still must check in everytime you enter the US.

Perhaps the 12 mile limit is a simplification on saying that if you go out of the country, which in more than putting a toe over the border, like entering port or anchorage or meeting with a vessel then you report in to customs. But if you happen to cross over the border while out sailing in rough weather unintentionally, then it really no harm or foul.

The bottom line is that there are people in this world who want to harm and kill innocent people and due to that some precautions need to be taken. While it's inconvenient, it's still far better than having to suffer another terrorist attack.

I think most Canadians understand this and having to present a valid passport is a small price to pay to enter the US. It is after all, a very nice country to visit. It's only a matter of making this proccess as quick and painless as possible and attitude goes along way in that department.


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## capn_dave (Feb 17, 2000)

*Shack RIght on*

However, I think the problem is deeper and more in line with being politicaly correct. Who is starting all the **** going on right now? and who's ass are we kissing to not offend anyone, So to cover that we all have to pay....IE no GATORAID on planes 
*GATORADE IS NOT THE PROBLEM
>
>Toiletries don't commit acts of terrorism.
>
>Muslims do.
>
>So why can't I take my toothpaste on the plane? How is it that Gatorade is 
>forbidden? Why can't I have a bottle of water?
>
>Because we aren't really fighting a war with terror, we are losing a 
>struggle with political correctness. It is not so much the evil of 
>outsiders, it is the cowardice of Americans.
>
>The cowardice that won't let us call a spade a spade, that makes us all 
>live in an alternate reality, that puts survival secondary to servility. We 
>are fighting World War III with one arm tied behind our back.
>
>Last week was a good example.
>
>A group of two or three dozen fascist Muslims in England and Pakistan 
>plotted to blow up 10 or 12 passenger-laden airliners in transatlantic 
>flight. The purpose was to celebrate and reprise the at tacks of September 
>11. The means was the detonation of explosive liquids disguised as common 
>liquids - like Gatorade or shampoo.
>
>The plot was discovered, followed and - hopefully - foiled by British 
>intelligence with an assist from Americans and Pakistanis. Immediately, 
>new restrictions were put on airline passengers. Because the plotters 
>planned to use liquids, passengers were forbidden to bring liquids onto 
>airplanes.
>
>Not medicines, not creams, not drinks, not nothing. Untold hundreds of 
>thousands of airline passengers immediately and indefinitely lost the right 
>to carry liquids or pastes on themselves or in their carry-on luggage.
>
>Which is stupid!!
>
>Because Gatorade is not the problem.
>
>Muslims are the problem.
>
>Can we be honest enough to just admit that for a minute? The plotters 
>uncovered in England wer e all Muslims. They all had Muslim names. They all 
>but one or two were of Pakistani descent. They were motivated by religious 
>bigotry. They wanted to kill because they were Muslim and they wanted to 
>kill the people they wanted to kill because those people weren't Muslim.
>
>Yet political correctness forbids us from mentioning that, much less acting 
>upon it.
>In fact, on the ABC network news over the weekend, the plotters were called 
>British Extremists - as if somehow the fact they were in Great Britain was 
>defining of their extremism. The fact is they were Muslim extremists, but 
>the American media is so in bed with the diversity-training crowd that fact 
>can't be mentioned.
>
>Also on American newscasts over the weekend, the story was told of three 
>men buying thousands of disposable and untraceable cell phones, an activity 
>with possible terrorist linkages. Not surprisingly , very few accounts noted 
>that the men were Muslims with Muslim names.
>
>Political correctness has sanitized this fight to such an extent that we 
>are not allowed to even identify the enemy.
>
>Which is not toothpaste.
>
>It is Islam.
>
>An Islam practiced by tens of millions of people around the world and which 
>repeatedly and consistently puts armies and cells of terrorists in action 
>around the world. No doubt there are peace-loving Muslims, it's just that 
>they have an amazing capacity for keeping a low profile - or demanding that 
>people respect their religion.
>
>Our desire not to offend Muslims and their culture has great potential to 
>cost American lives. Countless American lives.
>
>Here's what I mean.
>
>Lets lay aside political correctness for a moment and use scientific 
>analysis. Lets use reason and logic for just a minute.
>
>For example: How many terrorist acts have been committed involving liquids 
>carried onto airplanes by passengers?
>
>Answer: Zero.
>
>Second question: How many terrorist acts involving airliners have been 
>committed by Muslims?
>
>Answer: All of them.
>
>Third question: Why are we focused on liquids instead of Muslims?
>
>Answer: Beats me.
>
>Why is it that the protection of our airline industry is focused on 
>products, not people? Why is it that we go to such extreme lengths to 
>screen materials, but purposely avoid screening the people who carry them?
>
>Wouldn't we be safer if we focused our security efforts largely on Muslim 
>passengers? Especially young, male Muslim passengers? Isn't the fact that 
>every single act of airliner terrorism involved a young, male Muslim 
>relevant?
>
>Does it make sense to take away a mother's bottle of Children's Tylenol and 
>a grandmother's bottle of Coke while at the same time purposely not 
>profiling likely terrorists?
>
>Can't we be honest enough to admit that profiling potential terrorists by 
>religion, national origin, gender and age is a good idea? Aren't we bright 
>enough to understand that asking a few extra questions of a young Muslim 
>airline passenger is not the same as pulling over a black man just because 
>he's driving in a white neighborhood?
>
>A group of people was arrested last week for plotting a terrorist attack. 
>They were young Muslim men. Just like the group before that and the group 
>before that and the group before that. And the group before that.
>
>So, naturally, you can't take Chapstick on an airplane.
>
>Toiletries don't commit acts of terrorism.
>
>Muslims do.
>
>Maybe if the government spent less time looking at y our carry-on bag and 
>more time looking at young male Muslim passengers we'd all be a lot safer 
>and a lot less inconvenienced.
>
>This isn't about Gatorade, this is about jihad. It's time to stop focusing 
>on products and start focusing on people.
>
>People who happen to be Muslim.
>
>- by Bob Lonsberry Â© 2006
>
>What is even more troublesome is the fact that our elected politicians are 
>more interested in not offending anyone - specifically their parties voters 
>- or being negatively portrayed by the media. Fact is, these politicians 
>play the play the 'politically correct' game to extremes. These 
>self-serving politics are clearly putting the lives of thousands of 
>Americans at risk every day for personal gain. And, they know it!
>
>When is America going to wake up? Do we need the have many thousands of 
>Americans killed and injured by more Muslim extremi st before we do what is 
>right to protect ourselves?
>
>Muslim extremist will cause the death of many thousands of innocent men, 
>woman and children. These terrorist/killers only have to get it right once 
>--- we have to get it right all the time. Yes, their primary goal is to 
>kill as many innocent American men, woman and children as possible.
>
>Don't you remember thousands of Muslims around the world celebrating the 
>9/11 murders. Don't you remember them dancing in the streets in many 
>Islamic countries? Even Muslims communities in several European cities were 
>celebrating!
>
Cap'n Dave*


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## yotphix (Aug 18, 2006)

Hey Capn', I know I feel safer if young male muslims are screened carefully before getting on planes but don't forget that there are disgruntled white christian americans out there too. When you're in the air you are so vulnerable that I have to question whether carrying toothpaste or gatorade on a plane should be declared a "right" as you call it.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

*Shack-*
"Last time I checked Americans Citizens still run this country - not Dems, Reps, Greens, or Indpnt's. " So, you've been drinking the KoolAid? The American Citizens do not run this country. It is not a democracy, it is a federal republic, and sad to say most of the citizenry couldn't tell an apple from an orange without illustrated instructions.
Look at WCBS-TV, who recently replaced their anchor with Katy Couric, who says everything real simple and slow in case the children can't understand the issues. Got a local newspaper? Most of them are pitched to a 6th or 7th grade literacy level, only a RARE few like the WSJ, NYT, or Washington Post even attempt to stay near the 10th grade level. Or used to. Yes, a respected editor-in-chief told me that.

*Sailingdog-*
The point is not that the plane could pick someone up in midair, but they *could* easily divert and land on foreign soil. Given their speeds, quite possibly more likely than a pokey old sailboat.<G>

Guys, bear in mind that terrorists are not all Muslims. Oklahoma City was domestic. The Unibomber was domestic. And the BD Cooper, the guy who bailed out the tail end of a 727 with millions and never was found again (and the reason we aren't allowed to use the rear exits even today!) was domestic.

On the other hand, the Church of Rome was pretty good at institutionalized murder and mayhem from the time it was, what, a thousand years old until fairly recently? Maybe the Pope just needs to speak out and admit that Islam is just a bit younger than the Church, and is only making THE SAME MISTAKES THAT HIS CHURCH MADE FOR SO MANY CENTURIES. And maybe Dubyah needs to stop fractionalizing the world by saying "God Bless America", let's face it, he means "Jesus Bless America" and that offends about 80% of the world, who would probably prefer to hear him say "May the Gods Bless America".

America and most of the world has been ignoring radical Islamic terrorists since 1948, when the Moslem Imam of Jerusalem declared the Jihad that started the entire Arab/Israeli conflict.

Perhaps we spawn of Satan need to remove ourselves from the fanatics in Islam and let mainstream Islam deal with its own problem. Draw up a list of the leading fanatic factions, and the top ten holy places they revere. And every time there is one bomb, one rocket, one murder, on hijacking...We just cross one holy spot off the list, starting with the Mosque of the Golden Dome, or someplace equally noticeable.

I figure after the first two or three spots get crossed off the list and turned into molten glass lakes, Islam will figure out how to play nicely in the global sandbox. All by itself.

That won't stop domestic terrorists, but it will put the ball in the home court.


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## capn_dave (Feb 17, 2000)

*Hellosailor yer right all terrorist*

are not muslim, however the radical survivalist, usually get found out pretty fast, as they all live in Montana, or Colorado, LOL.

The problem as I see it is, we are giving up our freedom little by little everyday. Undue searches, etc. and what about innocent until proven guilty? Let some snot nose girl, boy, accuse you of touching her, (I gave her a hug, your honor)and your guilty, even if your not proven guilty in a court, you are still guilty, you just got away with it. You will probably lose your job and even worse.

Now dont get me wrong if a person would be found guilty and realy is, I would hang them by the balls.

Fair Winds

Cap'n Dave


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## yotphix (Aug 18, 2006)

Hmm...Capn Dave you're right. domestic terrorists all come places with no sea coast. Maybe if they spent some time sailing they wouldn't be so dissatisfied.


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## Rickm505 (Sep 4, 2005)

*passports to major geopolitics*

From a simple question about passports to major geopolitics, now that's what I call thread drift.

To those of you too young to remember, what started all of this radical Islam, was the Unitied Nations creating the state of Israel and then guarrenteing Israel's right to exist. This was a conserted effort praised by all except those poor folks who happened to live in the territory used to create the state of Israel. Those folks weren't happy about it then, and in nearly 60 years events haven't calmed them or their decendants down.

Before you begin to spout off about nuclear weapons, walk a mile in their shoes. If someone took my home and told me to get out, I'd have to do something about that, and so would all of you.

This is one of life's problems for which there is no solution.

As a citizen of the United States, all I can hope for is that our leaders' envision a responsible foreign policy which keeps those 'radicals' away from me and mine. The current administration seems to be ignoring this basic fact of the way of the world, and as a result, we are all in harms way.

My humble opinion

Rick in Florida


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## Shack (Sep 5, 2006)

*Hello Sailor? . . . you got yankee dolla?*

Congratulations!! "Federal Republic" you passed 10th grade government! That must be where the kool aide was served  Very enlightening. 

Saying that the Americans run the country is a way of saying that they get a vote. You shouldn't read too much into it, my lad. Of, by, and for the people is still a republican ideal. However, next time you want to display the weaknesses of democracy you should instead quote Tyler. Two hundred years ago he wrote "_A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. When the voters discover that they can vote themselves a largesse from the public treasury the majority will always vote for the candidate promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy and is always followed by a dictatorship._" and Blah blah blah etc
. . . I think he's right.
But Americans still run this country - just not at the 30 min sitcom tempo that many desire.

Now go ahead an put your finger to your temple close your eyes and say,"_The sum of the square roots of any two sides of an isosceles triangle is equal to the square root of the remaining side. _ (pause) _Oh joy, rapture!_"

About Planes - I think you lack some technical understanding in this area.
You qoute," _. . .but they *could* easily divert and land on foreign soil. Given their speeds, quite possibly more likely than a pokey old sailboat.<G>" _

No flight gets into the US without filing a flight plan. If it doesn't file it gets tracked and chased. I've seen it, and I've helped.  Each of these planes is either followed to a landing spot to straighten out the mess with DHS, Customs, and DEA. Usually someone gets arrested, and he sues the gov't. Do you recall hearing the radio calls on VHF Guard "_Unknown Rider, Unknown Rider, at (POS). Contact Green Crown on freq (XYZ) of you will be intercepted."_ ? Oh well ... you may be unfamiliar with international flights rules and the ADIZ procedures. There no where to divert and "pick-up" anyone without drawing an awfull lot of attention. You can sleep well in this regard.

Passports are a good thing. . .


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## Shack (Sep 5, 2006)

*Rickm 505*

Israel, 1948 - right.
That was the Brits fault.
Of course there were "Jewish" insurgents back then.
But before the Brits - the Turks ran the place.
They kinda had it between Persians since the middle ages
Of course the Christians tried to get it back when the Persians took it.
That didn't go so well, but I think the Christians/Romans really did in the Jewish people when they sacked Judiah, (not the Persians). The Persians just kicked out the Christians! TWICE.  
The Christians got Iberia (Spain) back from the Moors, but that was about all they did to regain the old Roman/Byzantium -hood. At least they got street cred.
Then of course you can't forget that before Judiah there were the Philistines (i.e. Palitinians). But I think Alexander really took the cake when he took the whole damn thing all the way to Western India/Pakistan!

Maybe the Greeks should get the land back since one could argue that they had it first - all would be happy then.

SOLVED
Now lets talk about Global Warming.

*Passports are a good idea . . . *


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

> SOLVED Now lets talk about Global Warming.


Well, I don't think it exists...but I will support anything that will drive up the value of my sailboat!


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## Shack (Sep 5, 2006)

*OK - Passports vs Global Warming*

Any takers . . .

Going . . . going . . .

If global warming causes changes in the gulf current and significantly alters the climate, would there be a possibile need for more passports? . . .as there may be an influx of Canadians who wish to avoid 12 mos of winter? . . .might be more people hitin' the Caribbean, too.

Hmmmm


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## Rickm505 (Sep 4, 2005)

That would hardly be necessary as te Global Warming would mean a significant rise in sea level, eliminating most of South Florida and the islands.


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## Shack (Sep 5, 2006)

Then there would be a need for more boats and boaters . .. they'd all need passports, too. 

Think of the new marinas that would be set up! You could dock at Orlando and see the new Venice attraction at EpCot.


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## ebs001 (May 8, 2006)

Radical Islam began in the 7th century. They eat their own. More Muslims are being killed in Afganistan and Iraq than non Muslims. 
If global warming changes the gulf stream it will be Europeans that will be invading the southern climes. Canadians and Americans will be sunning themselves on the shores of Hudson Bay. Bring your passports or you won't be going back to the USA.


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## Shack (Sep 5, 2006)

Maybe I should get dual citizenship as a Canuk in order to postion myself for the big day! . . . eh?

I'm sure a turn in the WX would bring somemore NHL expansion teams.

_Re: Holy War - more Amercans are being killed in places like LA, Detroit & DC than overseas. The combat losses don't even come close to the losses in military perosnnel from motorcylces, jetskis, no-seatbelts and DWIs._


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## ebs001 (May 8, 2006)

With Florida under water the Lightning and Panthers will need a new home ...Churchhill Manitoba and Moose Factory Ontario both on Hudson Bay sound good.
Shack,you might need dual citizenship if they go ahead with the fencethey are talking about. I see now that fence is not to keep the crazy Canuks in Canada but to keep the Americans from escaping once the big heat hits.


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## Shack (Sep 5, 2006)

I dunno; the weather does always look pleasent up there whenever I watch the news. It miraculous how the weather (being reported) seems to majically stop right at the border!!  Gee! How DO you guys DO it! 

Go Red Wings!

Speaking of that - I guess people are gonna need passports who troll the Great Lakes. Crossing at Winsdor, the Sault, and Thunder Bay. 

Pretty wild. How else are old people gonna get all those meds?


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Dave, it was that infamous anti-Crown insurgent "Ben The Franklin" who said something along the lines of "A man who would give up a little liberty for his security will soon have none of either."

Which is why I think the TSA screeners would be more useful if they were just sent hiking in the back hills of Pakistan, with a picture of Osama and a military cell phone in hand.

People forget--the only two reasons the 9/11 hijackings happened in the US:
1- was because Osama *knew* that only the US had shut down its sky marshal program. In the 80's, the US airline industry lobbied Congress and said "It costs too much" and Congress obliged. But air marshals in "primitive" countries on "inferior" carriers stopped three hijackings earlier in 2001.

2- was because only the US carriers had a policy of opening the cockpit. In the rest of the world, the cockpit was kept closed regardless of the threat, the aircraft to be landed ASAP without surrendering the cockpit.

Funny how the media ignored those issues.


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## ebs001 (May 8, 2006)

Shack, the big heat hasn't occurred yet. You'll have to speak to Al Gore to find out an exact time.
Speaking of reasonably priced meds, I saw on the news that Homeland Security is no longer going to confiscate senior's drugs when they cross back into the US. ....but they will need a passport
Go, Sens, Go


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Rick, if it wasn't for global warming, the geological record shows that the "normal and usual" condition on Planet Earth right now would be just about smack in the middle of another Ice Age. Not a little one, but a full blown one.

So...while we're trying to clean up our act and prevent the seaboards from being swamped, we'd better make Real Damn Sure we don't *totally* reverse whsat we've done. The "normal and usual" condition right now, would be much worse for us than the one we've wound up in.

'Course that would solve the recent plummet in Florida real estate prices.<G>


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## Shack (Sep 5, 2006)

hellosailor said:


> People forget--the only two reasons the 9/11 hijackings happened in the US: . . .


*Only two reasons!!*  Oh well I guess that simplifies it for the simple minded. The fact that these guys were allowed to come into the country after being identified is not a big deal. The gutting of our foreign intelligence program under the auspices of "cleaning up the personalities" must be inconsequential. (_"we don't need to work with shaddy people - we'll just use satellites."_) The fact that UBL declared war on the US . . . blew up the USS Cole . . . blew up African Embassies . . . and that he was minimized as a threat until after 9/11 . . . NONE of that played any part either.

BTW-
The GLOBAL WARMING and CANADIAN DRUG thing were just jokes . . . 
But I'll buy drugs from a Sens fan any day. and beer . . . I'll buy Canadian beer, too. . . . and mucklucks, I need some of those for the big climate change. oooH! and I need a good book on how to par'lez vous . . .


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Shack, I stand by "only two reasons". Two immediate reasons, without which *those* attacks could not and would not have taken place. Yes, there would still be folks trying to attack us in other ways. But the immediate reason for these two attacks, was that "we" left the barn doors so wide open, that someone literally could drive a jumbo jet through them.

When you know there are people trying to kill you, and you enable them that way, you've got to take part of the blame for their success. Congress cleverly skirted their portion of the blame by passing the bail-out bill to ensure the two airlines wouldn't ever have to appear in court--and raise the issue that Congress had shut down the sky marshal program. In response to their lobbying.

Larger issues? Sure. Older issues? Sure. But who enabled them that time? "We" did. Until and unless we accept the responsibility for our money-grubbing stupidity in those actions, the same thing is going to happen again and again. What did Walter Kelly say? "I have met the enemy and he is us."

If we're not willing to PAY, with our attention and money, for basic security raher than feel-good dog-and-pony shows, we're going to get hit again, and again, and again. And yes, that will be our own fault. You go play in traffic, you can't blame the traffic for running you down.

We're just damned lucky that Al-Q were bumbling fools, who didn't know how to really conduct an attack. The damage could have been ten times worse, a hundred times worse. Could still be, next time around--because we're still playing dog and pony show.


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## Rickm505 (Sep 4, 2005)

Come on guys, keep up with current events. The report the government issued on the collapse of the World Trade Center in September '05 has been called 'rubbish' by the heads of civil engineering departments of Cal Tech, MIT, Unive. of Ill. and just about any other expert that evaluated the report. These are the same guys who trained the guys who actually wrote the report, not nutcases. . Seems these buildings were blown up, not burnt up.

Why we were led to believe otherwise is a Mystery to me, but if you guys are going to discuss it, get it right.

Rick in Florida


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

> Seems these buildings were blown up, not burnt up.


You GOTTA be kidding me!


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## Rickm505 (Sep 4, 2005)

I'm serious, and so are they. Seems they were questioning the authors of the report collectively for months trying to resolve the descrepencies, and finally gave up and went public.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Does Spike Lee sit on the heads of those engineering departments? Because he seems to think the levies (sp) in New Orleans were blown up!


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## ebs001 (May 8, 2006)

Rick, I guess the airplanes were not real either. There was a program on TV which refuted all the arguements that the conspiracy experts put forth. They didn't land on the moon either, JFK is still alive as is Elvis .....


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

Yesterday, while sitting around sucking on my crack pipe, I figured it out...Carl Rove did it.


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## Rickm505 (Sep 4, 2005)

Guys, how interesting that instead of reading about this, you guys make jokes. These guys aren't proposing any conspiracy theory, and if I inferred that in my post, I'll apologize right now.

What they are saying is the offical report is 'rubbish'. I would suggest that before you ridicule, you do the homework. There are professional people around the country with careers and reputations on the line, because they've made this assertion, and making fun of them isn't going to make the problem go away. 

Furthermore, I don't know anyone who who call any of these engineering guru's crackposts or crackheads. These are the men who actually wrote all the textbooks, and might just know what they're talking about.

Rick in Florida


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## Rickm505 (Sep 4, 2005)

*global warming*

"Rick, if it wasn't for global warming, the geological record shows that the "normal and usual" condition on Planet Earth right now would be just about smack in the middle of another Ice Age. Not a little one, but a full blown one."

This was a lead on MSNBC today

"Global temperatures are dangerously close to the highest ever estimated to have occurred in the past million years, scientists reported Monday....."

Rick in Florida


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Rick, the WTC attacks happened on MY island on MY turf. I take them personally.

Nevertheless, it didn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what was really happening after the crashes. Each tower, 110 stories (approximately 1100 feet) tall. Each rubble pile after collapse, approx. 6-7 stories above ground, plus the 7 stories below ground, that's 117 stories collapsed into a space 14 stories tall. 1170 feet reduced to 140 feet. Now, if you know the most basic math, one "story" in a building is about ten feet, and ten percent of that is the structural material of the building itself. So, if 1100 feet of building was collapsed into a pile 110 feet tall--there would be zero voids, zero spaces, zero survivors. Hmm....isnt' it amazing how close that was to the numbers observed?

The "rescuers" were intentionally allowed into harms way, the fires were intentionally allowed to burn, because people felt they needed to "do something" after the attack. And now, they are dying in droves from lung ailments and other problems. The 9/11 response was a mollifying dog and pony show, no more no less. Every night the appeal went out on the Netwrok Nooze for flashlight batteries, socks, pajamas, something so people could feel they were "doing" something. In point of fact, all of these good were locally available under NYS law, specifically, the NYS Military Laws allowed *any* NYS Militia officer (aka National Guard) to pick them up locally and deliver them. Yet the NYS Guard made no official attempt to do so.

The 9/11 response has to count as one of the worst public frauds since the sinking of the Lusitania (which officially was not carrying the war materials which were documented on her cargo manifest) or the Gulf of Tonkin Incident (which has also been confirmed as total fraud).

Governments lie. That's part of their job.

Thank the gods [plural, intentionally] that the ******** have only rags for brains, and no real idea of how to do damage in the US. All they are doing, is using our own CIA guide books (from the 50's and 60's] and our own CIA "get the Ruskies out of Afghanistan" training, against us. And not very well, at that.

Do the math, look at the facts and numbers, not the opinions. There's an awful lot of smoke and mirrors and the rubes have been falling for it--as they always do.


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## Rickm505 (Sep 4, 2005)

No one seems to be taking the time to actually see that things aren't adding up. Instead it's easier to poke fun at it, so it 'goes away'. I have to tell you, I was in that category until I read the dissenting reports. 

Thermite at the base of the towers brought those buildings down, not burning jet fuel 800 feet up in the air. The thermite traces were detected from the ruble they dumped on Staten Island. 

The real questions now is how the heck could somebody (more than likely a bunch of somebodies) lay charges in advance, without being noticed? Were they Moslems? And why didn't the government tell us what happened?


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## ebs001 (May 8, 2006)

Rick what I'm saying is your bullshit does not trump my bullshit. So don't give me ****. Beleive what you want but the engineers of which you speak are only theorizing; they do not have proof.
Hellosailors math lesson means squat. Your assumptions are incorrect and therefore your conclusion.
You criticize us for not reading the dissenting views but have not read anything disproving your theory. Do your homework, Rick
Elvis lives


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## Shack (Sep 5, 2006)

*Rick U505*



Rickm505 said:


> No one seems to be taking the time to actually see that things aren't adding up.


Stop contradicting yourself. You just said that a bunch of VERY credible people just did a _complete an scientific analysis _of a bunch of smoking debris. Sounds like you have pleanty of people taking the time to find stuff that doesn't "_add up_".

The problem you are running into is there there are more people with "credentials" out there than you realize. Some are crackpots even though they still have credentials. What kind of people are they? They still want and need that recognition. I'm sure they were rebuked earlier in life and now need to do the "I;ll show YOU guys!" retort. SO they skyline themselves with this "shocking" and "revealing " theory for the same reason . . . they want to be seen and heard to continue feeling important.

But this is just as telling about you. Just becasue one _expert _says "X" and 100 others say "Y", you automatically want to go with the exception? Now, why is that? I believe it is because you are a distrusting person and look for exceptions like this. You need these to support your paranoia - and prove that you are not insignificant.

Tell me truthfully . .. I bet every one of these little conspiracy things that come around reallly do interest you (be honest). JFK, Roswell, Black Helicopters, etc . . . You must have been made to feel aweful as a kid to have so much of a need for the 1%.

I can use the same exceptional line of arguments to prove to you that the world is flat - you want to go there? Or are you already in the Flat Earth Society?


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## Notsosalty (Sep 19, 2006)

Rather, should the North West Passage open to year round travel, Panama would become a second rate toxic waste route prone to pirates and corupt officials. This would put Canada and Alaska in the preverbial Cat-bird seat. 

Goe-politically I don't think the problem is "*********' as some neanderthal has suggested, but the religious fundimentalism both xtian (bushco) and islamic (Al Qeada)
that currently have control over a number of governments world wide. 

Kick religion out of government, like the American fore-fathers meant it to be, along with the other inteligent minds in the world, and we can move on from this narrow minded dumbing down of the population into leading the world into prosparity for all.


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## Rickm505 (Sep 4, 2005)

So, now I'm a nutcase? Interesting....

A few sentences in the FEMA report [Chapter 2]

"The large quantity of jet fuel carried by each aircraft ignited upon impact into each building. A significant portion of this fuel was consumed immediately in the ensuing fireballs. The remaining fuel is believed either to have flowed down through the buildings or to have burned off within a few minutes of the aircraft impact. The heat produced by this burning jet fuel does not by itself appear to have been sufficient to initiate the structural collapses. However, as the burning jet fuel spread across several floors of the buildings, it ignited much of the buildings' contents, causing simultaneous fires across several floors of both buildings."

"To obtain the melting temperature for steel - not iron - one needs the external temperature of approximately 2,900 degrees (F) with enough time for the metal to convert from a solid to a liquid. The process can be accelerated, but only with a much higher temperature such as Thermite approximately 5,400 degrees (F). That's almost twice the needed heat. All the pooled jet fuel in the world won't burn hot enough to produce molten steel - under any conditions."

"Relative to the 'temperature' argument, the imagery of the WTC does NOT reveal the aluminum siding of the WTC towers deforming. Thus, given the constant exposure - over time - to any escaping heat, it is difficult to imagine the fires being so hot as to cause either catastrophic or abrupt damage to the WTC vertical support structure and not effect the the aluminum siding."

Fellas, It's not ME saying this... It's our own government. Oh... that's right, they must be the nutcases, right?


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## Rickm505 (Sep 4, 2005)

Of course it's easy to declare everyone a nutcase or a consipacy nut and let it go at that. Unfortunately although it makes you guys feel better, the underlying problems with the final report remains. These reports are long and technical, and require hours and hours of reading to get through them. I have taken the time, which of course makes me a nutcase.

I felt obligated to post the above exerpt from the FEMA report to illustrate how deep the dissention of the final report goes even within our government. But I now realize that it's little use trying to discuss this situation with people who get their only news from Howard Stern, and whose reading material is limited to Playboy. 

One can only hope that you guys to at least some homework before you cast votes in the next election. Then again, that would require you actually reading something and I guess there little chance of that happening.

I'm going to pass on posting anything else to this thread as it's a complete waste of time.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Notsosalty said:


> Goe-politically I don't think the problem is "*********' as some neanderthal has suggested, but the religious fundimentalism both xtian (bushco) and islamic (Al Qeada)
> that currently have control over a number of governments world wide.
> 
> 
> > Kumbayah....Kumbayah


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

Nicco61 said:


> Notsosalty said:
> 
> 
> > Goe-politically I don't think the problem is "*********' as some neanderthal has suggested, but the religious fundimentalism both xtian (bushco) and islamic (Al Qeada)
> ...


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"*********' 
I'll stand by that, and remind you that taunting, goading, and insulting of mortal enemies is a widely accepted and practiced art which even Western Europeans used to be quite good at. In these PC times, too little of it is done and what is done is often done poorly. The terrorists are ********* smoking the wrong hookah pipe, deluding themselves by wrapping tattered rags around their heads and dreaming they can be the great scholars and rulers that their ancestors were in days long gone by. And forgetting, those great ancestors were nothing more than another flash in the pan, another empire fallen, reduced to squabbling beggars starving in the desert while they ignored a changing world around them and made war on each other.

When you ask "how many xtians" ask yourself first, when the Church of Rome was the same age that Islam is now, what was it doing? Let's see...the Spanish Inquisition (convert or die if you were a non-Christian in Spain), the Crusades (first two million casualties were other European peasants along the way to Jerusalem, plundered pillaged and raped by the Crusaders), the forced conversion and elimination of hte native South American peoples....

Yeah, that Church is a shining example. Sad proof that the "Children of the Book" have more in common than many of them want to admit. Proof the zealotry and intolerance are nothing new.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*God Bless the USA and Homeland Security!*

It's to bad things were not working better in the USA for the people who died in the WorldTradeTowers.
The Coast Guard is here for US. They have always been able to board vessels. I don't believe they board any more frequently now then before 9/11, which says a lot for security. It's nice knowing they know who they're looking for because of the resources they have. I've been boating for years and have only received a friendly wave from border security including the Coast Guard. Without the resources Homeland Security uses the boarder may even be more restricted because they wouldn't know for sure who is who.
I've had a passport for years and have used it frequently. Why would you not want to have a pass port? It's a right to every law abiding citizen to have one.

God Bless the USA! May the powers that be make it safe to boat forever!


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## Shack (Sep 5, 2006)

*RICK -- FEMA & Official Government Reports . . .*

I've seen plenty of "official government reports"

I work for the government . . . If you saw the level of work ethic behind many of our so called "government experts" one wouldn't put alot of faith in their results.

I guess FEMA was all screwed up during the Katrina stuff - so say the fear mongers. But NOW their report on the melting temperatures of broken steel beams is "noteworthy" research. Can't have it both ways.

People use "expert reports" to their own advantages. Just becaue the "government" put out a report doesn't make it reality. Government effort quite often means it came from the LOWEST BIDDER. Keep that in mind wit al the other great government successes (Challenger, Discovery, Somalia, Viet Nam, etc . . .)

People can believe what ever they want to believe. Just becasue one reads a book or two on the subject does not make one an expert nor credible. This only gives one *a frame of reference*, but *it is never comprehensive*.

So - as for your conspiracy thing - forget the slanted science and try a match a motive as well. I don't know why people see "government" employees and nameless, faceless, motherless clones who are mass produced w/out identity in some secret government lab. Such nameless individuals may fit one's preceptions - like the one guy who always get's wacked on Capt Kirks's away team. On the contrary, I'd rather challenge one to find a hundred government workers with knowledge of demolitions and killing who would peform such a far fetched conspiratory mission (blowing up the trade centers) and not have some question as to why they are doing it? . .. or have some issue with the mission, and tell no one.

WELL - if such an all powerful group actually exists (outside of hollywood fantasy) then its not worth talking about it because they would defy not only the laws of the nation - but the laws of nature and all reality. There would therefore be no point in worry about them becasue they would be unstoppable.

Nonsense.

*Passports are a good thing.*


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Thank Allah you weren't talking about those idiots that screen in the airports. Nothing but another government sponsored welfare program.


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## Shack (Sep 5, 2006)

*TSA Screeners*

NICCO
I'd have to say "Amen Brother"

I still can't figure out why a set of nail clippers or a pocket knife is suppose to be so threatening. Does someone actually believe that a guy shaking a pair of knitting needles at plane load of Americans is NOT going to get his ass totally stompped!?

What has our post 9/11 society come to when we shake in fear from a guy weilding a deadly pair of scissors?

Granted - prior to 9/11 - conventional thought due to previous incidents was to 'go along with a hijacker' and eventually get released. I don't think anyone is willing to barter that angle anymore.


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## Rickm505 (Sep 4, 2005)

Shack

I hear what you're saying and I don't disagree but only to a point. I'm not a conspiracy buff, and my point is that regardless of who wrote the World Tade Center reports, the common denominator is that burning Jet fuel can not melt steel. In all of the news video, melted steel is evident, and all of the offical reports acknowlege this but don't address it. 

What the civil engineering experts are screaming about is that in a year of experimenting, they can not duplicate the phenomenon of jet fuel melting steel under any circumstances. It's this melted steel which brought down the buildings, and if the crashed jets didn't cause it, then what did? If you read the dissenting reports, many questions are raised for which there are no answers.

These reports present a mystery, and to solve it you take one step at a time. Hopefully each step leads in the right direction. As the final report stands, many experts are amazed at the gaping holes presented, and aren't accepting it. As for motive?... For all we know, another terrorist team was involved, and escaped unnoticed. 

In my humble opinion, we owe it to the families of those who perished to find the answers.

Rick in Florida


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## kennya (Jul 10, 2006)

I started this thread not to express fear or apprehension toward the possible closing of our borders. I agree for the most part with the concept, of closed borders. If a driver’s license and birth certificate is no longer expectable to reenter the States, I have no problem with a Pass Port. I spent a number of years in Europe and crossing borders is only a miner inconvenience. We have all been spoiled by the ease of movement across our borders. I for one support knowing who enters our country, but I also can see sometime in the future all citizens will have to carry paper of some kind.


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## Sasha_V (Feb 28, 2004)

Hi. I am a professional metal worker (Qualified as a blacksmith, worked as a boilermaker and eventually did a secondary degree in fine art metal (gold and silver smithing). I have also worked in casting metals and in destruct testing and failure analysis.)
I have absolutely no dog in this fight, in fact, I am in another country.

Now havign said all that...the stuff that was being said regarding jet fuel not being able to melt steel, and steel melting is what caused the towers to fall is utter tripe.

Firstly, it is not about jet fuel burning hot enough to melt steel. It does not need to happen. What you have are two huge chimneys that draw amazing amounts of air at huge volocities once there is a fire that causes airflow to begin drawing. In this case the central elevator shafts acted as a nearly perfect flue. Like using bellows on charcoal in order to jump from 300degrees C to 1200 degrees C...the key is airflow. And the thing is that at that point, it was not the jet fuel that was burning, that was just an initial source of ignition, on its own, it would not deliver a long lasting thermal source. My guess is that it was all burnt away within 5 minutes at the outside...but by then it had coated just about everything and caused a huge area of carpets, furnishings, noise insulation and everything else including plaster wall panels to ignite and commence releasing their thermal potential. You were no longer burning jet fuel, that was just your lighter fluid, now the real barbeque grill could do its work...and it had 1100 feet of draw.
That will melt steel handily. 
I have built 8th century bloomeries that smelt iron using homemade charcoal and some twigs...it is all about the airflow.

Now lets talk about the other really important misunderstanding displayed in your post. The steel that actually brought about the collapse did not need to come anywhere near to melting tempreture. The steel used to hold the floors in that building was tempered trusses. This means a fairly lightweight structure that delivers its strenght by means of its shape and by the fact that all individual components are heat treated to attain maximum strength (but shy of the point at which they become too brittle). This is a bit of atricky process to get right when dealing with huge trusses. The facilites for making them are pretty impressive.
But here's the downside....All it takes is enough heat to take the temper out of the steel, or enough to just warp the truss so that its shape is no longer aligned to precisely deal with the weight it is supporting...and it begins to fail.

It takes less then 500 degrees C to take the temper off much better steel then was used in the trusses and "normalise" it...except that normalising is what happens if you just let it col normally under no strees....In this case, it had 100's of tons of weight pressing down on it.

Now I want you to try a little experiment. Take a little strip of 18ga mild steel and flex it between your hands a few times. really give it a good fold and then back out. Now touch the fold point...Hot isn't it?

Now imagine steel that has been de-tempered and weakened by heat, under many hundreds of tons of load, in an oven environment (unable to shed heat)...going taffy and drawing out as it gives. Basically, the steel failing is what contributed the last bit of heat needed to generate the melted look of many peices.


So your conspiracy theories may be valid or about as much use as a hat made of blue cheese...You are welcome to them regardless...but the beliefs you espoused about steel were just plain silly.


You claim that you enjoy doing intensive research, so I do not feel too bad about providing the 2am ssuper basic version of what I was saying.I hope it inspores you to do some research further afield then you seem to have looked to date.


Sasha


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Sasha, the "mysteries" of the WTC collapse were all pretty much explained in the multiple engineering reports and reconstructions that happened afterward. Among them, one key problem was and is that in the US steel beam construction is fireproofed by spraying cement (asbestos-cement at that time, IIRC) over the steelwork. And that works as a means of slowing fire damage very well. BUT that cement coating shattered and cracked off from the extreme impact of the jetliner--something it was never designed to accomodate.

That's all water under the bridge, and not only has it been indepently confirmed but new building construction codes have already been proposed that will take this into account and mandate the use of different materials and methods, so they don't fail under impact damage.

Running changes like that are among the reasons why rebuilding the WTC has been so slow to happen. The politicians argue, delay, and muddle, and then when they're done...the engineers have to play catchup all over again. There have been several rounds of substantial engineering and security redesigns over issues like this.

All the conspiracy theorists should instead by shouting and rejoicing in the streets, that an unprecedented and unexpected failure mode basically allowed those buildings to SAFELY IMPLODE instead of falling sideways and taking out 1/4 mile swaths through the Wall Street district and City Hall.

Yes, I said SAFELY implode, because if the ******** had been good enough to knock 'em over sideways from the base, there could have been 100,000 deaths instead of 3,000, and a firestorm of epic proportion. (45-50,000 in the towers later on during a normal business day, that many again in the surrounding buildings they could have fallen on.) We got hurt--but we got away lightly compared to what professionals could have done.


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## Sasha_V (Feb 28, 2004)

Quite.

Oh yeah...because I can't sleep and left out one part of the post I was answering.

Traces of thermite and how it got there.....

Aluminium and iron oxide equals....anybody? Anybody at all? Say it loud now, most of us played with making it as kids...THERMITE.

Yep, your magical miracle trace element.

...And not just for burning through your parents garage roller door either.

You can refine it, you can do funky things that make it burn hotter or more directionally depending on what medium you adhere it to...but at the end of the day thermite is iron rust and aluminium.

oxidising iron like the window frames of the bulding for instance.....andaluminium like...of, I don't know....say a goodly percentage of 40+ tons of commercial aircraft....


As further reading, you may want to check out the original building specs and plans. I am sure they had to include the proposed controlled demolition specs (you do not get permission to build sky-scrapers in built up areas without explaining how you would make them go away after their usefull lifespan). I think you will find that the vertical pancaking is a sort of design feature of those towers....especially as the alternative is, as pointed out by the previous poster, taking out huge swaiths of city.



Goodnight.


Sasha


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## Shack (Sep 5, 2006)

*Passports*

Kenya- 
Thanks for bringing up the original post. 

I think pass ports are a good thing.


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## Joesaila (May 19, 2007)

*Passport revelation*

Psst, hate to kill all this important discussion re passport, but since I am a victim of Massachusetts I feel qualified to actually state why all this 'new' passport malarky even exist. $MONEY$. Like homeland security and 'our' Mass. Water Resource Authority,[don't drink the water or eat the fish?] its all guff, all about money for what we can compare to the politburo, 2007. Mao said "We will conquor you from within". Now with 12-30 million illeagal aliens on board and demanding 'rights' you have to truthfull and admit homeland security, new passport regs are just that. Looks like Mao is vindicated. While people focus on the sky [global warming and gay rights] the country has been...lost. Whew, that is depressing. Makes you want to just sail away from it all!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

It might be interesting for all of you 9/11 debaters to look at the video titled _"Loose Change, 2nd Edition",_ which you can see .


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

> Maybe I should get dual citizenship as a Canuk in order to postion myself for the big day! . . . eh?


Gee ... I'm not sure, but I'd venture to say that you'd be much happier in the US... we don't like (hand)guns, have high taxes, a lot of socialist policies, and care less about individual "rights" than we do about the common good...


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

> I dunno; the weather does always look pleasent up there whenever I watch the news. It miraculous how the weather (being reported) seems to majically stop right at the border!! Gee! How DO you guys DO it!


Well when I was talking to God last night (_he hangs out in Canada a lot these days_) he indicated that he is not too fond of the Republicans anymore... (_If you check your historical weather records, I think you'll find an amusing correlation between a Republican White House and weather disturbances... and please note that I said it was AMUSING and nothing else_)


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Sailormann, I think your God must be confused, or messing with your head. Last time someone creamed a couple million DEMOCRATS in the Democratic city of New Orleans in the Democratic state of Louisiana...A democratic mayor and governor took a lot of flack for screwing up, while that Republican in the White House got to look concerned and play soldier for the day. He had a real good time, but them dem's got smashed.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

HS - I agree that he got the targets wrong (but we all make mistakes sometimes - even God) but it did happen while the White House was under Republican lockdown...errr, I meant to say occupied by a Republican President


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Al Gore had a priceless comment during a Charlie Rose interview a few weeks ago. He said the problem isn't that man in office, it's the whole way the government is being run, and arguing about one man just wasn't going to fix it.

Scary day when I find myself agreeing with the Algorithm...but his point was priceless. And no doubt lost on most of the folks who are allowed to vote when they shouldn't be.


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## Rickm505 (Sep 4, 2005)

Amen brother


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