# First boat, living aboard and learning to sail



## mkrautha (Jul 11, 2003)

Okay, 
Try not to discourage me in your responses but here's my plan and I'd like input:
My wife and I are in our late twenties. I sart medical school in 2008, although from June 2007-August 2008 we will be sort of between things in our lives.
We would like to sell our house and most of our posessions in order to buy a relatively inexpensive sailboat (max 15k), in order to liveaboard and really learn how to sail during that year. I do have some experience sailing rhodes 19s on a small lake in Vermont and helping crew a friends boat around Martha's Vineyard, but all and all we are completely unsalted newbies though we've done a ton of reading. 
Our plan is to move from Vermont to the Bay Area so here are my questions:
1) Boat suggestions-- We are looking for a boat that will suit our sailing needs now and later. This boat will be very simply designed, relatively small (nothing over 30') capable of offshore cruising (eventually once we have the experience and provisions and can properly outfit the boat), easily single handed by a man or woman, and a reasonable liveaboard for a year even if spartan (we lived in a 20' tipi in the Vermont through winter and are not afraid of roughing it). A head would be nice, or at least a little privacy while using the portapotty...

Some thoughts are as follows:
a) Westerly Centaur. Interior seems right about perfect for us. Not sure of its ocean going capabilities though generally speaking they seem to be good. I just read somewhere about stix ratings which I had never heard of before. Any thoughts?
b) Aleutka-- no standing headroom, I am 6'2. Still, I love the boat and I might just deal with it.
c) Flicka-- too expensive though
d) Folkboat-- maybe the interior is too small here, or at least too short...

Basically our thoughts on a perfect boat are well summed by Tom and Nan Mcnaughton on their website: http://www.macnaughtongroup.com/living.htm

2) What are thoughts on twin keels? I am a real DIY type of person so I like the idea of being able to beach our boat to get at the bottom. Can twin keels make good offshore cruising boats?
3) Also, I will be calling marinas in the Bay Area on Tuesday to see about getting on a waitlist, but I did notice that most applications require that the applicant already own the boat. Is there anyway around this, or do I need a title in hand before I can even begin looking for slip?
4) Oh did I mention we have a baby who will be one year old when we move aboard? Any thoughts here? 
5) Positive flotation-- does the westsail have it? Can it be added?
I'd appreciate insights, thoughts, recommendations, refferences etc.
-Michael


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

You have a dream, don't let anyone take that away from you. But I am slightly less than reluctant to say that you might be putting a little too much on your plate at one time, especially with a baby on the way. On the other hand, I don't want to damper your idea especially if you have determination. Wow, what to say? All those questions about twin keels and all that kind of ponderation are down in the noise about making a switch to living aboard, and even more with a baby; additionally is your financial upcoming situation. I might presume your post was just a fleeting thought, but since you ask about cabin height and such then most likely you are are really considering this with starting medical school and taking care of a new baby. I'd be overwhelmed personally.


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## mkrautha (Jul 11, 2003)

*Buying a boat living aboard cont.*

Actually, the baby is already here, and will be a year by the time we move aboard. Truthfully, I think because we are young and not terribly cemented into our current lives, the switch to liveaboard won't be too difficult. We already keep a pretty small footprint as is. We don't expect to be cruising next year by any means, we just see it as an opportunity to live lightly and improve our sailing abilities over the next year. I think the hardest part will be the moving across the country. 
Fleeting idea however, it is not, we've been mulling it over for some time but it is really hard to get a toe hold with some much information to gather.

I also want to add to my list of prospective boats:
Cheoy Lee frisco flyer or Cadet...
Thanks,
Michael


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Several couples with small children/infants are living aboard Alberg 30s. It's a very sold and safe boat, and bluewater capable, and relatively inexpensive. Works fairly well as a daysailer as well.

One of the couples has a pretty good blog... you can read it here.

They also have a very active owners association. You can contact the owner's association here.


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## mkrautha (Jul 11, 2003)

*boats to consider cont.*

Thanks for the thought. Actually the Alberg 30 is on the list. I am really attached to the idea of a twin keel though for the usual reasons... Perhaps I shouldn't be?


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## Waymar83 (Jun 5, 2006)

As you are the one asking here are my two cents worth:

1) Keep the dream as long as it is equally shared. If the two of you are as enthusiastic, stick with it and make it happen.

2) Now is the best time to do what you are planning. It will become more difficult later on. 

3) With a 1 yr old, I suggest as roomy as possible and safe. Separate Head/with shower. Make sure you have hot running water. I also suggest a small microwave in the galley (as a liveaboard, from shore power). Small children get dirty and hungry and these just make life easier. 

4) Always think of child safety. They can get away from you very fast and it only takes a split second. Properly sized lifevest is a must. Watch where you put sharp objects, sources of heat (including hot liquids), where do you store chemicals...

5) I've also seen secured car seats used for children while underway. Not a bad idea for keeping them in the cockpit..

Good luck. Wish I had done the same 20 yrs ago. 

Mark


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Michael, I don't mean to be discouraging but you've got a LOT to look into.

From the little things, like trying to find a boat under 30' that meets your needs, to the larger ones like finding a liveaboard slip in the Bay area (you should start looking now) and what's suitable offshore.

Frankly between med school (five years) and residency? I don't think "offshore" is going to be a major issue for nine years, ten if you start counting now. Odds are whatever your first boat is, you'd change your mind and want to buy something else for then, so a liveaboard boat, not an offshore boat, might be your first pick for now.

In 30' six feet two of headroom will be hard to find. Under 28' and you are not likely to find a real head compartment, and a head with shower will be harder to find, memo, look for a marina with showers.<G>

Twin keels aka bilge keels are mainly a British thing for northern latitudes where the tides may swing 30' every day. In the US I doubt you'd find 1/4 of one percent of boats with them so in practical terms, find a boat that meets your other criteria and forget about oddballs--which also will be a problem to resell when or if you decide to. Find a boat that has the space & price you need, and deal with whatever keel it comes with, there are pros and cons to them all.

A boat can need a lot of routine maintenance. Add med school, an infant, and whatever your spouse is up to...and that's a lot to have on your plate!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

If you want a twin keel... might want to look at the Golden Hind 30.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I believe there's an old thread on the Golden Hind.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Yeah, but it really doesn't have any info in any of the three Golden Hind threads. I looked the other day. 

AFAIK, the Flicka and the Folkboat aren't twin keelers either. Also, headroom is going to be an issue on a lot of boats in that range.


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## mkrautha (Jul 11, 2003)

*boats continued*

Good thoughts all. Thanks. We are also considering renting a liveaboard if we can find one. Any thoughts here?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

renting a liveaboard is generally not an option. Most owners can't rent their boats out as it would violate their insurance and probably requires some additional paperwork. Most boats that are capable of being liveaboards and possible to use without owning are charterboats...and the cost of chartering a boat for full-time, liveaboard use is prohibitive.... much more than the cost of owning your own boat in most cases...


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## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

given your requirements and your experience, I'd look around for the old reliable catalina 30 or alberg 30. One can be had in your price range and if you find your dream a little "waning" after a time being, they're relatively easier to sell.


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## mkrautha (Jul 11, 2003)

*Boat search continued also Sailing question*

I like Alberg 30s though they are getting pretty old all of them. Still certainly on my shortlist.
Thanks for the tip on the Golden Hinds. They may very well be at the top of my shortlist for a second boat. Currently there aren't many around and they are just slightly out of my price range.

Still I can help but gravitate toward the aleutka and the folkboat which is crazy I realize since both are not even close to ideal liveaboards and the rest of the family would kill me. Nonetheless, I found a restored wooden folkboat with a trailer for with an asking price of 15k and two aleutkas at 7 and 9k respectively (no trailer but easily done on a flat bed b/c they are bilge keels).
The thing for me is ultimately a boat is both a practical and a soulful purchase. I think this is why the folkboat and the aleutka appeal to me. Especially since the folkboat is wood!! They've both got character...

Also, anyone have any thoughts on sailing schools in the bay area-- there are other threads pertaining so don't feel too obligated to answer.

Thanks again for all of the good advice and insights.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

With all of the other balls you are juggling, I would hope a wood boat would scare you. Wood is a great material--but it also requires constant high maintenance, or else you sink one night. And if someone didn't do the restoration exactly right, didn't use exactly the right fastenings...you may need to remove and replace thousands of them, while drydocked.

Wife, baby, med school, wood boat...No mortal could juggle all of those without seriously neglecting more than one of them.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I'd second Hellosailor recommendation against wooden boats... even a fiberglass boat, if it has a lot of brightwork, will take a fair amount of maintenance.... a wooden one takes far more... and you'd spend more time maintaining it than sailing it.


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## JagsBch (Jan 19, 2007)

Why is 30 the benchmark length and not say 35? I have all of about 1 hours sailing experience, once on a hobie cat @ the beach, and twice in a rental trimaran in a lake where I managed to tack a few times. I just learned what a Jib was yesterday. I guess I am asking the question to learn something for myself.

I have also learned that a 30' @15k will could more than likely wind up costing you another 10K or more in the near future if. The budget factor could take the pleasure right out of pleasure cruising if you like any typical family live on a tight budget. 

With an infant on board single-handed is the key word. Knowing first hand how 100% attention is never enough for a child, you or the misses may find yourselves, single handling the boat more often than not.  The beauty of it is that there are two of you. 

The beauty of raising a child with two parents is that you can split the duties somewhat, but with a boat can be a baby on its own, trying to keep that lamb from screaming can be a full time job, between the boat and the baby I foresee stress in the near future. How is your relationship, is it capable of withstanding the brunt of this new lifestyle? A 30' foot boat will seem like a 1o' boat when you consider 2 screaming babies and a nagging wife needing a break, while your trying to do your homework, I hear your education could be a full time Job. Dude I suggest getting bigger boat.  

Babies, school, boat, 3 full time jobs, now where does getting a job to pay for all 4 of your living expenses come into play, if she works then now you 2 will have 4 full time jobs, and that means you will more than likely inherit a babysitting expense as well as the lions share of taking care of the baby, considering that a baby sitter could almost negate nearly half of the money being made? Say your girl gets a gig making $12 hour after taxes etc etc etc you may have $325, afte a babysitter you may have 125, and after dinner out you may have enough to fill up your gas tank. 

May I ask why your selling the house? Because this is not even including the many many other worst case scenarios, like your girl bailing on you and the kid because she just can't take it no more, or you having to drop out of school... A young couple and a baby, living aboard the confines of a 30 foot boat? 

"I could be bounded in a nutshell, and count myself a king of infinite space, were it not that I have bad dreams." Shakespeare

I suggest you 3 spend a month living aboard a 27 foot boat, before even attempting this maneuver. Stress can make the boat smaller and smaller, might as well get a taste of what living aboard even a 35' boat will feel like in about 4 months of moving onto it with a baby.

If you were my son I would more than likely be talking you out of it, marriages are hard enough to manage without forcing yourself into a crunch. Where you are going to find that all too important time to nurture your marriage, in the midst of everything else you are going to be obligated too, then there is that all too important solo down time you both will need, besides sleeping of course. 

I am sure you have heard the expression there is not enough time in the day, well add all the elements involved with this new lifestyle there is not only less time, but less space. I suggest you find a boat with an aft cabin where either you or the wife can have a place of refuge because you will need it, especially to focus on your homework, as I imagine you will have a ton of it.

Contrary to what Budda say's our passion's truly can be a virtue, if they are counter balanced with reason. Balance is the key here, how are you going to balance all the time each object in your life is looking to possess, while incorporating the brutal yet surreal elements of nature to the equation? Marriage, school, baby, and a boat, sounds like a novel. Where does the money factor in this equation? It just does not add up to me, but I am looking forward to hearing to your reply. 

As crazy as a notion your predicament may appear to me, I am sure mine may come off as being even crazier to you. With all of 1 hours experience sailing, and less than a months research on the matter, I have already sold my house, picked out my boat, and looking forward to sailing her down from NY this spring.   

Dreams do come true, but like that old saying goes, be careful what you wish for.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

JagsBCH-

Boats increase in size geometrically, to the cube of the length. A 35' boat is about 36% bigger than a 30' boat, even though it is only 16% longer. The sails are more difficult to handle, as is the ground tackle. Anything smaller than 30' is generally too small to comfortably liveaboard. 

The Alberg 30, one of my favorites, is actually a fairly room boat for its size and used by at least two bloggers I know of as a liveaboard for couples with a single child. 

For instance, an Alberg 35 weighs in at 12,600 lbs., and has a 100% sail area of 545 sq. ft. The Alberg 30 weighs in at 9000 lbs., and has a 100% sail area of 410 sq. ft. Handling the mainsail on the Alberg 30, which is 221 sq. ft. is fairly reasonable for a single person. The main on the Alberg 35 is approximately 50% larger, and significantly heavier and harder to manage. Another problem is that boat costs generally go up with the length of the boat. An Alberg 30 averages about $16,000, while the Alberg 35 averages about $26,000.

Also, many of your cost: hauling out, dockage, painting, storage; are related to the length of the boat... The equipment on a larger boat is also more expensive... the winches are larger, the ropes are heavier, etc. 

Finally, for a relative novice, a 35' boat may be a bit too much to handle, especially short-handed.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Jags... I agree with everything SD said except the last sentence! *Properly set up*...a 35 ft. boat is easier and safer to singlehand than a 30footer...except in docking under power. What kind of boat did you get??


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

camaraderie said:



> Jags... I agree with everything SD said except the last sentence! *Properly set up*...a 35 ft. boat is easier and safer to singlehand than a 30footer...except in docking under power. What kind of boat did you get??


Actually, it really depends on the boat... some 35' boats may be easier than some 30' boats-others would not be...


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## mkrautha (Jul 11, 2003)

Here is my metareasoning behind this plan:
As far as meeting needs in life there are two lines of thinking: 1) How do I get more and 2) How can I do with less.
We are taking route 2, with the idea that drastically reducing our global footprint is a responsible, and satisfying way of approaching life.

As far as choosing a boat and upgrading for cruising: what we want to do is buy the boat now, and upgrade over the years as we have the money and the time. If the boat isn't an ocean cruiser for 10 years so be it, as new sailors the reality we may not be ready until then. The point for us is the possibility-- to know that should we feel the imperative we can turn our attentions toward preping her and ourselves for long voyages. In the interim, we should just be able to use her to practice our skills in order to really become good sailors and to live albeit cosily on. (did I mention that our last home was a 20' diameter tipi?)
As a counter example, has anyone read about the guy who was recently dismasted around cape horn? That guy is the anti-me. He decided to circumnavigate in order to learn to sail!?! He had 3 gps devices. He had a huge inboard motor. He had a 40 someodd foot boat. In retrospect all of this proved too much. I think I read he had a years worth of coastal cruising experience...
Me, well like I said before-- some sort of head would be nice. As for things like showering the truth is, I usually go to school gym after my classes are out and wind up showering there. I rarely use my shower at home as it is...
Another example, I recently e-mailed Yves Gélinas of circumnavigating-in-an-Alberg-30-using-his-own-CapeHorn-self-steering fame, as to the issues that arise from sailing with an outboard particularly in rough weather (he removed his inboard prior to his trip.) His response: either sail, find a harbor or heave-to. (You can read about his boat here: http://www.capehorn.com/sections/remotorisation/remotoriserAng.htm). Simple enough.

We want to immerse ourselves in boats and sailing, but we want to do it in a way that our time, resources and abilities permit. For us that means 1st, getting aboard. We can't afford/ don't desire to afford living aboard and having a house. Why should we? We don't need both... if the boat doesn't work out, we'll move back to land, so far as I know it's not going anywhere (barring melting ice caps).
Certainly a boat is a lot of work and expense. But then again so is owning a 120 year old house in the country such as we currently do. There is the expense of heating (2000 a season) the expense of lawn care, taxes, maintanance, mortgage, insurance etc. I am certain that with planning we will be able to create a liveaboard situation that is less expensive.

Why is it so crazy that we should try and live in a small space together as a family? Because people in our culture generally don't do it. We are expected to try and grow our resources, our possessions etc as our family grows. Call it the SUVacation of America. Like many people our age, we have a small amount of credit card debt, a moderate amount of student loan debt, and of course a mortgage.Most days we wake up and ask, what for? Today people are more overweight than ever, feel more isolated than ever, are in greater debt than ever...
I guess you could say this plan is an experiment to see if we can take a different approach to the way we plan our lives. I am certain we have a lot of hard work ahead, as well as a lot of lessons to learn. Great! What's the point of living otherwise.
And, if we find we need more down the road, then we'll get more. Until then, we won't worry about it.

Phew, 
Hope I don't sound too preachy.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Michael... doesn't sound preachy to me at all. Good explanation of your plans and where you are coming from. You seem to be tempermentally suited to living really bare bones and cramped so that is a major plus in your favor. Look, worst case is that you'll have invested 15K+ in something that didn't work out the way you had hoped and you'll sell at a bit of a loss. Compared to your investment in med school...that is a pittance! And once you "hang out your shingle"...it won't seem like such a big deal anyway. You can always get a bigger boat or decide the whole boat thing is overrated but at least you won't be wondering about whether you should have done it! Your approach sounds both prudent and right for you guys. Are you attending UVM currently? I went to a little school 30 miles down route 7...I'm just getting warmer now!!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I think that your idea of downsizing and living a less materialistic, consumption driven lifestyle is an excellent one. I agree with it as well.


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## mkrautha (Jul 11, 2003)

*Boat Plans Cont*

Yup, I am currently at UVM, taking the medical school prerequisites. Since the application process is a year and a half long, next year I will not be in school, so it is an ideal time for us to test out living aboard.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Hmm - You don't mention it but I really hope that you're not planning on living on this boat WHILE you are going to med school. As an interlude it sounds like fun - but once you start to study and really need to get involved in things - it is not an option. Most likely outcome is that you'll barely pass, if at all - and be known as the intern who smells funny and has mouldy clothes.

As far as 15K for a boat under 30 feet with standing headroom for 6' + and twin keels - DOESN'T EXIST ! If you find it - then leave the wife and child on shore, pay up your life insurance, and then venture out to sea- it's not fair to drown them as well. 

Here's a suggestion...buy a decent Alberg 30 and live on it for a year with the family, making forays up and down the coast. When you start school, move ashore, and apply yourself to your education, for the good of yourself, your wife, your child, and your patients.

Don't set up a huge number of needless obstacles to success, because if you finish medical school properly - you'll be able to buy and fit out whatever boat your heart desires and spend your life sailing and working all over the world.

Don't screw up the long term possibility for a short-term adventure.


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## JagsBch (Jan 19, 2007)

> Here is my metareasoning behind this plan:
> As far as meeting needs in life there are two lines of thinking: 1) How do I get more and 2) How can I do with less.
> We are taking route 2, with the idea that drastically reducing our global footprint is a responsible, and satisfying way of approaching life...
> *if we find we need more down the road, then we'll get more. Until then, we won't worry about it.*


Now there is a noble concept, being satisfied, while making more out of less. That is exactly what I am talking about~!!

Love not sleep, lest thou come to poverty; open thine eyes, [and] thou shalt be satisfied with bread. Pro 20:13

The way I see it doc, is that you have 15K to throw down on a boat; talk about a lot of bread, and a huge responsibility to boot. Practicality ought to be priority one, blue water boat could actual be a residual of having a practical living arrangement. There are plenty of boats that are already rigged for Blue Water on the market, I was actually looking at this one I made a $7,000 offer and it was accepted.

http://yachtworld.com/core/listing/...l.jsp;jsessionid=cur0RZfdde-b&boat_id=1374541

Heck with another 5K this boat could be a steal indeed.

Point is to be diligent in your search, don't assume that a 30' will be easier to manage than a 33 or even a 34 for that matter, as dog pointed out that is just not the case. My point is that I just don't see your wife and infant taking showers at school with you.

Speaking from my own personal experience, I was surprise to learn how high a premium that the commodity of privacy is for a woman. As the man, she trusts you to take "good" care of here and the baby. I just don't see her packing up the baby in the rain to go and take a shower together as being practical or well thought out. _Paying 25 dollars more a month for 3 extra feet when it is going to be giving you one quarter more living space is a priceless no brainer IMO. _

The footprint of 3 more feet could indeed make a better impact on a global level, considering it may alleviate just that much more undue stress from the level our society possess; the difference in the quality and satisfaction level of your family's existence will make the world a better place.  Talk about going from the outhouse to the penthouse~!!

The way I see it 3 to 4 more feet could be the difference of green to red on the satisfaction spectrum. You sir are about to navigate to a new conscious plateau, make sure that your family as well as yourself are comfortable as possible.

You have enough money for all three of you guys to be absolutely comfortable, or absolutely miserable. I just want to take this opportunity to expand your horizon on that logic. More with less can be a good thing.

If I where you, what I would do is look for boats in the 33'-35' range with the asking price of 15-25K and making them offers based your budget constraints. Reach for the skies and you will be shocked at what you can pluck out of it this time of year. You will be shocked at what people will settle for, remeber they toocan be dreaming with their asking price...

If you're going to dream, dream big. Being a Doc, I am sure you are well aware of the expression and an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, I doubt you will say you need a smaller boat with a 34 footer, and what position will you be in to get a bigger boat after you spend your 15K? 

People want to get the money they invest in their boats, but fact of the matter is, there are just to many boats on the market to make that reality so. Know and understand that. Point is people find themselves buying boats and dumping a ton of money into them, only to find themselves selling the boat for less than their original purchase price. In general, the pleasure in sailing comes from investing the money into boats not from trying to flip and getting it back out them.

For instance, I was at breakfast this morning and someone saw me looking at a sailboat trader and offered to give me his 40' boat. I am serious, it was costing him 400+ dollars a month in storage, don;t underestimate a persons desperate desire to get rid of their boats... Now thinking about it, the man in the restraunt would have probably paid me to take his boat.

A man in NC wanted to sell me a project boat for 10K a boat mind you that needed 25K's worth of work. Point is you can find boats that people want to get rid of for various reasons, I suggest you find a boat where the owners already went through the trouble bringing it up to speed so to speak @ a fraction of what they spent to get the boat there, there are too many of those available to pass up.

Sailboats I have learned are can be an enigmanolamy. A 25' boat can be harder to sail than a 35'? A boat you bought for 20K and spent 25K refurbishing could wind up being sold for 14K not even a year after completing the refurbishing? Deals of a lifetime come by every other month? WHAT THE WHAT THE WHAT? Don't set yourself up for regret; Carpe Diem. Seek and you shall find&#8230;

First lesson in sailing 101 is not to set yourself up for worries... Consider yourself on land about to take a voyage to the great blue wonder, You don't want to wait till you get out there to realize that your boat is not big enough... Hello~!!

You don't want to wait till your money is spent to realize that your boat is not comfortable enough to live on. There is a difference between being comfortable with something and being able to tolerate something. The last thing you want to be forced to do with your new home that you will more than likely be stuck in is having to tolerate it. As if there is not enough in the world we are already forced to tolerate.

The way I see it, your home is an extension of your conscious mind, make sure there is room for every one to copacatically exist. There will be plenty of things to worry about with having to set yourself up for it. 

I don't see another big chunk of money coming my way anytime in the near future, so I am doing everything in my power to make sure I make the most of it. It is easier to make more space with less money. Less is more, now the only question you have to answer is what is more? Space or the headache of not having enough of it?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Michael,

I've just moved aboard myself and found myself going over and over different boats that I could get into around the same range. My plan was to find something, fix it up while using it and then when I'm finished with school sail off into the sunset.

In the end I changed my mindset a little. I stopped thinking that the boat I was buying was going to be my boat for the next 5-10 years.

What I decided on was a boat that's considered a good coastal cruiser and has lots of room for 30 feet. In the end it narrowed down to a Catalina 30 or Newport 30 II. They are very similar in width, sail area and all other numbers.

Finally bought the Newport 30 because I've known the owner for a long time and knew he had always taken good care of the boat.

Point is...I love the boat, it'll give me a lot more experience in sailing (had a Catalina 22 before) and then in another 3-5 years after I've got some experience coastal cruising I'll look for another boat, something more geared towards bluewater cruising.

Don't get stuck in the mind set that the boat you buy is the last boat you'll own.

Alan


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## captw3 (Apr 28, 2006)

At your price point start thinking Alberg. Most of the other boats you mention are well above that. A late model pearson such as a 303 or a 28-2 will give you both the private head and head room you are looking for.Are you going to buy on the west coast? If so that is going to effect your buying power per boat buck and limit your choices.
I would narrow it down to four boats and then search to see what is available. If you are both on board with the dream, go for it! lots of luck.


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## JagsBch (Jan 19, 2007)

If you have well over a year, why narrow it down to 4 boats rather than size? Expand your location for that matter, especially if you have time to sail it back to school. I looked at boats in Ohio, Arizona, NY, mexico, The Islands...

Look at this boat in California it is only 5K

68 33' Yorktown Sloop

http://www.sailboatlistings.com/cgi...fault&uid=default&view_records=1&ID=5890&mh=1

Make the most of your money by utilizing as many options as you possibly can. The window of opportunity is only as wide as you allow it to be. In a year from now the only thing that is going to matter is what you settled for. Make it count.

"Take it from me cuz i found
If you leave it then somebody else is bound
To find that treasure, that moment of pleasure
When yours, it could have been" Jimmy Buffet


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## SeaStrutter (Oct 10, 2006)

Way to go Mike. I'm with you on the whole "living with less"... I have worked in an office for the last few years with a dress code, and am expected to look together - shave, ironed clothes, smell OK and all the other things "civilized society" expects ... I first lived on an older 40' houseboat, which was gutted when I bought it. I lived in the huge vberth that summer and fixed it up... My first big boat - I bit off more than I could chew - I never finished it and was lucky to sell it and break almost even. 

Next was a little 25' sailboat, which, like the houseboat, was a bare shell when I bought it. It took me a few weeks of hard work, but I accomplished more with the sailboat, and it felt more like home than the houseboat would have even if I had put in another years worth of work. Point is, stick to your guns and go small! You will work out the details, like using a little hand steamer to straighten out your clothes and febreeze to give them that "fresh scent", and you're already set with the gym shower... If you need space just take the dinghy for a row or take your books to the club snug... 

Good Luck!

PS - I gotta say I agree with the whole "stay away from wood" thing though. Seen too many bad things happen to wood boats, and they are a fulltime job to maintain.


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## mkrautha (Jul 11, 2003)

Wow! I'm humbled by the replies. Seems I've struck a chord...

Alright so how about this: Forget ocean going for a moment-- A suitable boat for sailing in *SF bay* (strong wind, good chop, challenging by most standards) No bigger than 30ish feet with providing living (albeit tight) accomodations for two.The simpler the better. budget max 15k.

Alberg and
Albin Vega are on the list.

Now, how about Cheoy Lee 27' offshore cadet or a frisco flyer. Can be had in my price range-- plentiful on the west coast, modeled off of the folkboat with more headroom, fiberglass with plenty of brightwork to soothe the soul, leagally trailerable (7.5' beam for the cadet and I think the same for the frisco flyer), and and the cadet has 1.5' longer than the folkboat and has 2' on the frisco flyer. Good resale value from what I can tell.

I beg to differ on the claim that an 30', bilge keel 6' cruiser for 15k or less doesn't exist-- the Westerly Centaur is an example of such a boat with plenty of ocean crossings under its belt. Certainly they usually run closer to 20k but as JagsBch points out, there are steals to be had. I believe there are a few on yachtworld currently.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I think the Albin Vega, which is only 27' or so LOA, is going to be too small for you to liveaboard comfortably. The Cheoy Lee 27' is also going to be far smaller inside than an Alberg 30, and probably more money. 

The Golden Hind may be a good solution for a twin keeler, but AFAIK will be out of your budget ballpark.

The Albin Ballad would probably be a better choice than the Vega, but not as seaworthy IMHO. 

Other boats that may be good choices: Grampian 30, Bristol 29.9, Irwin 30 Citation, Morgan 30 OutIsland, Pearson 30, and Tartan 30.

My personal recommendation is still the Alberg 30. It is very seaworthy, beautiful design, very active owners assocation, very solidly built.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

mk-
Something for you to consider. Living aboard, two adults and one baby (which WILL require baby stuff with many trips unless you stockpile some of it or plan to wash cloth diapers) is going to add weight to whatever you are on. Every boat has a design waterline, and once you add weight, whether it is extra crew or just 'stuff'...the boat submerges more and the performance generally tanks in short order. 
I'm not sure where you would find it, but if you can find any design information relating to design payloads and such, that's something to look for. I'd suspect the Morgan OutIslands would be especially suitable for that reason, they were designed to be loaded up, more so than many boats really designed for daysailing and weekending. Probably a heavy-displacement boat will suffer less from carrying extra weight, as compared to a newer lighter boat where your additions are a higher percent of the original displacement.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Hellosailor-

Not actually a problem as two couples have discovered. They both liveaboard Alberg 30s with a child. One of their blogs is located here.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

The $15,000 purchase limit you have established may be the most difficult obstacle to overcome in your adventure. I have never personally seen any vessel that would be capable of safely hauling precious cargo offshore valued in the price range that you are considering. Forget it. A tipi in a Vermont winter is a far cry from a storm in the Atlantic for one can always walk away from a tipi in an emergency however you can not walk away from a cheap offshore vessel at sea. Armchair reading and inland lake sailing can be pleasant and romantic, whereas what you are proporting to do on such a limited budget is plain goofy.


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## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

"No bigger than 30ish feet with providing living (albeit tight) accomodations for two.The simpler the better. budget max 15k."

I found 16 listings for cat30's that list for under 20k, in CA, OR, WA..
I'm pretty sure a firm offer of 15 would sail any of 'em home.


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## JagsBch (Jan 19, 2007)

I am looking at the Florida Trader and in Key Largo there's this
1982 Catalina 30' 4'2" draft Roller Furling 5,500 or OBO 
Needs engine. 
305 451 4700 Paul.


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## mkrautha (Jul 11, 2003)

So here is what we've decided. Trying to buy a boat from vermont in SF, or anywhere else and then transporting to SF is maybe a waste of money and energy, so we are going to move to San Francisco first, and start our search when we get there. Thanks for all of the good insight, thoughts, suggestions etc. Cross your fingers that a solid Alberg 30 will be waiting under the Golden Gate Bridge when we get there


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

That's a better plan MK...keep us posted on progress and focus on the MCAT's for a while...all the water is solid up there anyway! <g>


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Not to throw a monkey wench (yes wench) into your equation, But the Pearson ariel is a solid vessel. Big enough to live uncomfortablly in and can be had for a song. There is also a Irwin 37 here in MD the my wife and I looked into, not really our cup of tea but the PO put alot of work into before he fell ill, though that leaves you with transport issues. I would look ingo the Ariel though great little (26 feet) boats. And the support group is great as well.


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## mkrautha (Jul 11, 2003)

*The seach continues even though I said it wouldn't*

Yeah pearsons are a good though. I think I would consider the Triton however. I've been in negotiations with a guy for an offshore cadet, though I have to be honest, something seems a little fishy about the whole thing, and he's in BC so I'd have to trailer the boat down (it comes with a trailer but the cost to haul it is about another $1500). On the otherhand there are a few nice looking tritons for sale in the Bay Area and I think they meet my criteria. Certainly they fall within my price range, standing headroom, not quite 30' but fairly close. And, while the trailer with the cheoy lee is an added bonus, it also means I'll have to either sell it or store it once I'm in the bay area, which is of course an added expense...
I'd like to get peoples thoughts...


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## QuickMick (Oct 15, 2009)

if you see one, check out the balboas... 26', trailerable w/ammenities in the cabin....


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## keylimesailingclub&cottag (Jan 13, 2017)

This boat has sold, but I have some others if interested


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## Gail Peterson (Apr 16, 2017)

*Re: Buying a boat living aboard cont.*



mkrautha said:


> Actually, the baby is already here, and will be a year by the time we move aboard. Truthfully, I think because we are young and not terribly cemented into our current lives, the switch to liveaboard won't be too difficult. We already keep a pretty small footprint as is. We don't expect to be cruising next year by any means, we just see it as an opportunity to live lightly and improve our sailing abilities over the next year. I think the hardest part will be the moving across the country.
> Fleeting idea however, it is not, we've been mulling it over for some time but it is really hard to get a toe hold with some much information to gather.
> 
> I also want to add to my list of prospective boats:
> ...


I agree that you're putting too much on your plate. Medical school and the following residency is no easy task and many, under the best of circumstances, do not make it to the end. Even though you're accustomed to making a small footprint, living in small quarters (even a 45 footer is small with a family full time) will provide you with little to no space to study in peace and quiet.

I'd suggest purchasing a smaller boat that you and your family can spend weekends on and learn to sail with the responsibility of maintaining your family's safety in mind. That's a whole different type of sailing than what you did with the Rhodes. Then, when you finish your training, think about moving aboard. You will then have a much better perspective of what your family needs and desires in a full-time cruiser/live aboard.

All the best!


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## midwesterner (Dec 14, 2015)

It appears that the original poster of this it's red and has not been back on in a few years. I wonder how things turned out for him.


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