# The Search for the First Boat - long learning curves



## pmoyer (Oct 3, 2006)

(This is going to be pretty long - apologies in advance....)

I've been looking for the first boat for about a year. I'm still looking, but I've learned a lot in the search, and from this board, so I wanted to share progress and thoughts, in case it helps some other new sailors in their searches. 

It seems like the forums get a regular flow of "what boat should I buy" questions, and the answers are always the same. I think part of the problem is that when all you've sailed is 20' or smaller, you just don't know what kinds of questions to ask, so you end up with these vague descriptions and "requirements" that the folks here patiently address, over and over.

Over time, and with learning, my "requirements" have changed pretty dramatically. I read here, I post here (sometimes), and think about the answers. Even the flame wars between the senior members are educational, because they define the problems and the different viewpoints.

Rule 1: Do Not Hurry.

I wanted to have a boat last summer. Now, I *might* have a boat this summer. If it isn't until next summer, that's ok. Better to take your time and let your wants and needs evolve with your learning.

If I had 200K in my pocket when I went to the Annapolis boat show last fall, I'd probably have a Delphia 37 right now. It would have been a mistake. It's not because the Delphia 37 is a bad boat (I still love the design - she's a great boat), but because it's not a good fit for the kind of sailing I plan to do.

Why? Lots of reasons. But for the experienced sailors here, I'll say that if I had 200K in my pocket right now, I'd want to get either a Valiant 32 or a Southern Cross 31. From that, you can tell what kind of sailing I want to do, and why the Delphia would have been the wrong boat for me. 

Those two are the wrong first boats, too, because I don't have enough experience to be setting off on ocean passages. Those will be my second boats, maybe, because I *want* to set off on ocean passages.

The point is, if you hurry into the decision with neither sufficient experience nor book learning, you'll probably end up making a huge expensive mistake. Just last week I finished a book (Lin and Larry Pardey's "Care and Feeding of the Sailing Crew") that made me significantly rethink three "requirements" that I previously had.

Rule 2: Be Honest With Yourself.

The two most often used responses, in this forum, to, "what boat should I buy," are, "what kind of sailing do you want to do," and, "where are you going to be sailing?" Listen to this, and be honest with yourself. It has HUGE bearing on the kind of boat you should be considering. I would say that a third question should be, "how much experience do you have?"

What kind of sailing do I want to do? Blue water. But not right away. I'll be daysailing, weekending, and doing three or four week-long trips every season. Even though I *want* to do blue water passagemaking, it's not something I should consider with my first boat (much as I hate to write that).

Where am I going to be sailing? On the Chesapeake. Exclusively. Ok, maybe a little foray once in a while up to the Jersey Shore, or down to Virginia, but coastal cruising at the most. The Valiants, Pacific Seacraft, and others are not the right boat for that location and kind of sailing.

Honesty in these respects is critical. It will keep you from making huge and costly mistakes.

For example, I will be sailing with my wife and two teenage daughters. As much as I would like a racing boat, the motion will not make the others very happy....

Rule 3: Don't worry about the money.

Don't shop, initially, based on money. It doesn't hurt to look at what's available on YachtWorld based on your expected budget, but that's not how you should make your list of possible boats.

The way to make the list is to learn. Read. Talk to sailors. Go to shows and look at new boats and gadgets. Go to yards and look at boats on the hard. Always try to learn. I'll include a list of books that I've found extremely helpful.

It's much, MUCH better to understand the KIND of boat you need before trying to find one you can afford. Note that I said "kind" rather than "make." This goes back to Rule 2. Deciding what kind of boat best suits your sailing style and location will greatly determine what makes of boats you should consider.

This is also related to the book list, below. Reading Ted Brewer's Understanding Boat Design, for example, dramatically helped me understand how hull shape influences motion and tenderness.

After you've determined the kind of boat you need, you can start looking for a make, year, and condition that fits your budget and skills.

Rule 4: Read, think, and learn.

I can't tell you how many times I've seen someone like me post "I'm trying to decide between a Catalina 30 and a Westsail 32 - help." This is a sure sign that someone hasn't done enough research.

It seems there are four categories of understanding that you need in order to buy a boat and be successful with her. You must understand: yourself; sailing fundamentals; sails - theory, design, and set; and boat design.

I don't think there are many books that help with the "understanding yourself" part. That's on you. There are several that will make you think about the kind of sailing you want to do, and how your relationship with your boat will work out. I include here "inspirational sailing" books - those that fuel the dream (aka obsession, insanity, etc).

Ellen MacArthur. Taking on the World.
Richard Henderson. Singlehanded Sailing.

Books that address sailing fundamentals:

US Sailing. Basic Keelboat.
Bob Bond. The Handbook of Sailing.

Books that address Sails:

Emiliano Marino. The Sailmaker's Apprentice.
Don Casey. Sails and Canvaswork.

Books that address boat design, maintanance, and handling:

Ted Brewer. Understanding Boat Design.
John Vigor. Seaworthy Offshore Sailboat.
John Vigor. Twenty Small Sailboats to Take You Anywhere.
William Seifert and Dan Spurr. Offshore Sailing.
Nigel Calder. The Cruising Companion.
Brian Gilbert. Fix it and Sail!
Don Casey. Any of his sailboat repair books, particularly Good Old Boat.
Lin and Larry Pardey. The Care and Feeding of the Sailing Crew.

There are a few others, but this is a good list (as is the required reading list on this site).

Rule 5: Rethink your requirements.

A huge amount of what you think you need when you start looking for a boat is really stuff you want. The folks here are amazingly knowlegable, and there's a huge volume of literature available. Make a list of what you think you need, but be ready to change that list when you find out you didn't know what you were talking about.

Looking back, I've pretty dramatically changed my "requirements" for my first boat. I started out with:

Seaworthy.
Diesel.
Roller furling.
35+ feet.
Propane stove.
Wheel steering.
Decent speed and pointing.

Now I'm down to:

Seaworthy.
Decent speed and pointing.

Why?

Diesel - yes, they're nice to have because of the gas fumes and the global availability of parts. It is no longer a requirement, though, because there are a lot of boats that I'd like to have (example: Pearson Triton 28) that generally don't have diesels. I might be missing a great Bay sailer, which is what I really need it for, if I restrict my search to diesel auxilliaries.

Roller furling - yes, it's nice to have when you're single handing and need to reduce sail. From reading, though, there are some significant disadvantages: UV degradation, luff compression, difficulty setting partially furled sail, windage aloft, weight forward, cost, and complexity (something else to break). So is a roller furler "required" for daysailing or weekending on the Chesapeake? Nope. It doesn't take that long to hank on a sail.... I've seen some nice boats (older Sabers, Tritons, P30s, Tartan 30s) that don't have roller furling, and they tend to be less expensive to buy.

35+ feet. The longer the boat, the heavier she is and the more easily she'll handle chop or larger seas (to broadly generalize). Also, more room below for family and friends. My wife really likes about 37 feet. The Pardeys, though, sail on smaller boat. More room below means you'll tend to load her down with "stuff," or at least I will. Smaller boats are cheaper to moor, haul, paint, and clean. Smaller boats have fewer systems, which means more time sailing and less time checking wiring, changing filters, fixing the plumbing, tinkering with the electronics, varnishing teak, etc. So for daysailing and weekending, do I REALLY need a boat over 35 feet, even for my wife and two daughters? I don't think so. The Triton 28 has four bunks and a head. That's all we really need.

Propane stove. Kind of a silly requirement, but I really detest alcohol stoves. It doesn't matter, since the only time we'd really use it is when we anchor out, and I can use my portable propane camp stove for that. Again, not a requirement, but a nice to have.

Wheel steering. Salingdog really surprised me when he challenged this one. He's absolutely right. There are advantages to tiller steering, particularly on a smaller boat! More room in the cockpit when at anchor (with the tiller raised), easier to move about under sail, one fewer thing to go wrong and require fixing, and better control of the boat (or so they say). Some beautiful extremely seaworthy boats have tiller steering: Westsail 32 and Southern Cross 31, for example. It just makes sense.

So I'm left with seaworthy and decent performance. Seaworthy because I might be completely in love with her and want to go offshore in her, and I don't want the design or construction to preclude that. Decent performance because the quicker she is, the farther I can take the family on a weekend. The second "requirement" is not nearly as important as the first. Generally, I think a more "seaworthy" boat will have a kinder motion for my seasickness-prone wife.

I'm currently looking at a couple of Triton 28s. Good price, good hull design, pretty to look at (IMO). Very, very simple systems. And small enough that if I want to try my hand at lofting my own sails, it's not an unreasonable thing to do.

Anyway, this is kind of the "lessons learned" so far in my boat search. I hope it's helpful to somebody....


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

Very good and well thought out post. Hopefully, it will be read by those looking for that first boat, and, heeded. After all, a dream is only as good as the reality that goes into making it happen. You seem well on your way.

Regards,


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

It's an interesting little trip you take when you're in the process of buying your first boat. I was going to go a little smaller than what I initially bought, but a friend pointed out that it's wise to keep the number of boat transactions to a minimum. Buying something at the high end of your means runs contrary to the conventional wisdom, but it's better to grow into your vessel over the course of a couple of years rather than buy, sell, and then buy again. This is a good thread...


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

Excellent post. I could not agree with you more about taking your time and being realistic about what you will be doing with the boat. It was my first time buying a boat (other than Hobies) and I should have taken longer, but sometimes you just don't know what you will need until you take the leap and learn along the way, spend time with the boat. So, yes, it is crucial to sail on many boats as much as you can, make friends and spend time on their boats, tell the broker to leave you alone in the boat for a half hour (it helps). Sail in some local One Design races on types of boats you are considering. Lots of clubs have raft ups during the season and you can look at all the different variations of the same boat. I think I was very lucky to pick such a good boat after only six months, with my limited sailing experience. But already, my criteria has changed, and my next boat will be different in several ways. For a first boat owner, I have one piece of advice. If you are only daysailing, lean more towards performance, if you are going to be doing a lot of overnights, lean more towards livability. Be more comfortable while you learn, you won't notice the performance difference in the beginning. Live and learn, at least I am happy to be sailing my own boat!
Cheers,


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

PMoyer...excellent post. I'm sure it will be helpful to some new buyers! 
I will take a moment to comment on each of your "rules":

Rule 1: Do Not Hurry. I don't think most people will have your patience or passion for learning...though one can't argue with your premise. I think most folks can make a decision on a first boat within a few months and it will be hard to go too far wrong unless they plan on going blue water cruising. As long as they plan to stay close in shore and get a good survey, almost any boat will be fine. The more prepared you are with understanding your real needs...the BETTER the choice will be but I'd still take a Valiant 42 on the ChesBay rather than wait a year to settle on a Catalina. Worst case...I sell the Valiant and buy the Catalina.

Rule 2: Be Honest With Yourself. Another good one...but one of the recurring themes here is folks wanting to go blue-water and cross oceans when then don't know what that is all about AND don't like it when they try it. There's a reason Georgetown Harbour in the Bahamas is called "Chicken Harbor" and why south Florida has a lot of nicely equipped cruising sailboats for sail...lightly used! People bought these 'cause they honestly believed they would enjoy the cruising life and long distance sailing. Many don't.

Rule 3: Don't worry about the money.
Here I disagree...if the goal is long distance cruising/living aboard. In my experience, most people have to worry about the money and cannot afford the loss that comes with a two or more boat approach to finally getting the "right boat". I agree with the need to really research the right type of boat for the planned cruising agenda and then find a suitable one that is affordable. But if a Tayana37 is the right boat...there is no need to get a Hunter 28 to learn on first in the "Bay" Not doing so will save a LOT of money and buy a lot of rum drinks somewhere nice!!

Rule 4: Read, think, and learn.
Yeah...I agree...but it is interesting that I've never read even ONE of the books on your list....and I've read a lot of sailing stuff over the years. I think that the CG boating course for sailing is very useful for beginners and Calder's stuff on diesels and electrical systems is invaluable but the best advice I can give is just to read a lot about sailors and boats following your own interests. There is so much more available on line today as well that can short cut the learning curve....and not just here. What you don't learn from reading...the boat and the sea will teach you! <g>

Rule 5: Rethink your requirements.
I do think you have to be open to other ideas...but I also think that it is a mistake to make too many sacrifces to things you would like to have in boat. ALSO....make sure "your" requirements include your family's wants and needs. A "Pardey" approach may work for some couples but they are rare. It may be better to change your cruising plans...than give up too much comfort/lifestyle stuff in order to "live your dream". As one woman said to us..."I am letting him live his dream of going cruising...but I did not agree to go camping for 5 years."

Hope this adds a bit to the search process for some of you.


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## goose327 (Jun 11, 2001)

I guess I did it all wrong,,LOL.
I've had powerboats all my life, LOTS of powerboats. A while back(about 10 years) I saw a Sunfish for sale, CHEAP. Not knowing a thing about sailing, I bought it. I taught myself to sail it in a couple hours but never really got excited about it. In my mind the little lateen was all I ever wanted to do with blowboats, in fact I figured if anyone ever gave me one I'd lop off the pole in the middle and put an outboard on it.
A couple years ago, for whatever reason, I was looking at a local "for sale" website and saw an add for a Venture 23. I Googled it and fell in love. I went and looked at her, but couldn't afford it at the time(and he was only asking 1800). I had a minor case of "the bug" and kept looking at SV's on Craigslist, in the local papers, but nothing got my heartrate up like that dam V23. I got some bills paid off and was flush again a month or so ago and went to look at the boat again,, IT WAS GONE. I spent weeks trying to track her down and finally found that she had been donated to the Senior Center herein town and had been auctioned off. I found the guy who won her and asked if he'd be willing to part with her. After hearing how I felt about her, he said sure, why not and the rest is history. I now own the boat of my dreams, have no idea what I'm doing, but having a BALL figuring it all out. You guys think too much,,LOL,, J/K.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Pmoyer-
Great analysis, should be required reading for all those who post the vague "which boat.... " queries.

Nice timeline on your "attitude adjustments" too, as you were able to realize which "requirements" were truly deal-breakers and which, in reality, should not be.

One comment re: tiller vs wheel - I'm happy with either, but have found that for longer passages, or long boards on the same tack, a well designed wheel arrangement lends itself to a larger variety of comfortable positions to drive from. (eg, I gota bit of a "crick" in my neck after sailing 2 weeks in the trades, same tack, same heading pretty much, on a boat with a tiller.)


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

That's what its all about Goose! I like the "Just get out there" approach. Oh, and check out the new cover of good old boat, very similar to your V23.


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

goose327 said:


> I now own the boat of my dreams, have no idea what I'm doing, but having a BALL figuring it all out


Goose, that's what it's all about, baby. I like you story...
Sailhog


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Goose...yer right man! Getting out on a boat in safe waters is the best way to learn and have fun!! (Keep a GPS in yer pocket though with your home waypoint...If we find ya out there, we'll point you in the right direction!! <g>)


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

One thing to always remember, different ways work for different folks. What makes this a good post is that the people that would ask, are not usually the type to just dive in, or, they just want confirmation of a choice they've already made.

My first boat, a Mirage 5.5, I bought because it was the only thing available at a price I was willing to pay. But, the reason for buying was to see if after 30+ years, I still enjoyed sailing as much. When I found I did, then I started looking for something bigger that would fullfill certain requirements. From that boat, it was 3 years until I found and bought Aria. 3 Years of looking, reading, researching, and living on yachtworld every winter.


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## pmoyer (Oct 3, 2006)

camaraderie said:


> Rule 3: Don't worry about the money.
> Here I disagree...if the goal is long distance cruising/living aboard. In my experience, most people have to worry about the money and cannot afford the loss that comes with a two or more boat approach to finally getting the "right boat". I agree with the need to really research the right type of boat for the planned cruising agenda and then find a suitable one that is affordable. But if a Tayana37 is the right boat...there is no need to get a Hunter 28 to learn on first in the "Bay" Not doing so will save a LOT of money and buy a lot of rum drinks somewhere nice!!


You had excellent points (most of which I looked at and said, "hum, yeah, that's a good point.")

I was unclear about the "don't worry about the money" part, and I apologize. There's a great deal to be said for buying the boat you need first, rather than "moving up." Unfortunately, my choices seem to be a) buy something small that "will do" for learning and having fun on the bay until my girls go off to college, b) wait until the girls are in college to get any kind of boat at all, or c) borrow a bunch of money to buy a boat now to get experience.

See, I've sailed (baby boats - Lightnings, little O'Days, Lasers, E-scows, Tornados, J/24s, etc), but my wife has not. Ever. I bought her a course with Womanship for Christmas to see how she likes it. If she absolutely detests sailing, and never wants to go on a boat again, I'll never need to go past the 30' (or so) Bay cruiser - the one that "will do."

If we wait until the girls are off to college (3 years from now), she won't have much experience, since all our money will go into the boat fund and kitty.

As for option c, well, I don't want to borrow money to buy a boat. I'm not very good with personal finances, and that's just a disaster waiting to happen (for me - YMMV).

So what I was trying to say was, don't worry about the money when you're trying to find out what *kind* of boat you need. Money is not a good measure of suitability. I just ran over to YW, while writing this, and did a search for used fiberglass sailboats between 28 and 32 feet, for less than 10K, and available on the east coast. Of 57 hits, there are widely different boats, like the Pearson Triton, the 29' Bristol, and the 28' Newport. I imagine the Newport's handling and seakeeping are pretty different than the Triton or Bristol.

(I'm sorry, I cannot seem to write concisely today.)

So I'm on a strict budget, and need to get out on the Bay to have fun with the family and get them sailing experience. I feel like I'm better off saying I'd prefer the Triton to the Newport, based on sea motion, rather than just looking at price and not really understanding the differences between the boats.

What works for me certainly isn't what's best for everybody.

Of course, if I hit Wednesday's Powerball, it's a different game entirely (I think there was a thread a while back about "what would you buy for a million dollars?").


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

My father bought a Cal 25 II back in '78. 

We simply went sailing, learned as we went. 

Good post by Pmoyer, we are on a serch for a new boat now. I say its about a two year plan.

I was thinking to move up 6 feet and move up again in a few years. My wife disagrees and says if we are going to move up than we should just make the 10 foot jump. I kinda like her thinking.


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## rtbates (Jan 30, 2007)

And a word of the obvious, but I've never seen posted. 

A blue water boat WILL daysail/go coastal, BUT a daysailer/coastal cruiser would be advised not to go offshore. And nothing much is as bad as going for a casual coastal sail and getting hammered onto a lee shore. A good stout bluewater boat will claw off that shore. A better bluewater sailboat can be hove to on the OFFSHORE tack and proceed to slowly and with a relative amount of comfort gain searoom. A daysailer/coastal cruiser will be over powered and forced down wind onto the lee shore. I lean toward heavy, full keel, narrow vessels for any kind of ocean work. If it won't heave to stay close to shelter. BUT, be sure you can get in BEFORE the blow. The absolute worse case you can find yourself in is approaching land in worsening weather. Much safer to turn around and head to sea to gain searoom. And that's where you'll appreciate having a blue water vessel.


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## goose327 (Jun 11, 2001)

Thanks guys. 
Cam,, I won't need the GPS just yet, I know this lake like the back of my hand. I built it. Well, OK, I helped build it, I was a Materials Tech for the Corps on the New Melones Project. I worked on a couple other projects here in Ca. too, and I know a couple of you guys sail on them.
Sorry to go O/T.

BTW, please don't think I was in any way trying to lessen this lesson, I'm a wise cracker by nature. I do appritiate all te tips I see on here.


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## pmoyer (Oct 3, 2006)

*Off the subject - Claw rigs*



camaraderie said:


> Goose...yer right man! Getting out on a boat in safe waters is the best way to learn and have fun!! (Keep a GPS in yer pocket though with your home waypoint...If we find ya out there, we'll point you in the right direction!! <g>)


Ummmmm, yeah.  I was looking at the claw rig in "Sailmaker's Apprentice," then looking at the 20' 2-man kayak in the corner, then at the claw rig....

I think I really must add a mast step to the kayak (fiberglass experience!), a few blocks and cleats, and play with this claw rig thing (sewing experience!). The wind always dies to a bare sniffle on summer evenings in the North Bay anyhow.....


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

pmoyer said:


> If we wait until the girls are off to college (3 years from now), she won't have much experience, since all our money will go into the boat fund and kitty.


I have two little girls, and I make them watch a couple hours of Beavis and Butthead every day so that they'll never have the inclination to go to college. They think it's all about them, but it's really all about me.


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## southerncross31 (Sep 16, 2006)

Great thread, i went through the same process over and over in my head. The Southern Cross is a GREAT boat. You don't need 200k though. I paid 10k for mine last fall and have been working on it ever since...so far i have spent about 600$ for parts. They are very solid boats. Re-coring the deck is way easier than everyone says (i think its a way to scare people into spending $), so even one that needs work will still be way cheaper if you do it yourself. For my first "big" boat I settled on a Pearson 26 because i had been sailing hobiecats until then and i was afraid I wouldn't be able to solo a bigger boat...within 1 month i was wishing i had a bigger boat! A boat like the Southern Cross track's better and has a much better motion at sea than a lighter fin keeled boat. This makes foredeck work easier when alone. I can also reef later and be out in much worse conditions with more confidence. The sailplan is also a big consideration. My Pearson has a 150 rf genoa with a tiny main. It barley moves under the main alone, thus is hard to steer in harbor w/o the auxillary. When the wind kicks up i have to reef the 150 so much it has very poor shape so i slow down. The boom on my SC is 2x the legnth of the Pearson's and the main is huge. It easily powers the boat alone. The Yankee cut headsail (allows geat visibility when soloing) and staysail on a rf allow a much better sail combination than one large geny and when the weather fouls I have way more options. Because of the full keel and sailplan the boat easily heaves-to as well. The Pearson handles great but any time spent away from the tiller means your changing course! I also have a wife and 2 kids, and the extra room makes a HUGE difference. Pearson=5'8" (can't stand up inside) Southern Cross 31= 6'3" plenty of headroom. The V-berth is so big i'm making 2 kids bedrooms out of it! Now i'm stuck with the Pearson's storage/haul/mooring costs for another year, and the loss i will take on it to sell it quickly. If i had just gone for the Southern Cross first i would have saved several thousand dollars and the headache of already having to sell a boat i just bought. Bigger boats are faster, safer and more stable but not that much harder to solo!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

The only real problem I can see happening with a SouthernCross 31 is that they have a cored-hull. If you have a problem with the hull, the repair is very expensive, unless it is caught very, very early.


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

southerncross31 said:


> Re-coring the deck is way easier than everyone says (i think its a way to scare people into spending $), so even one that needs work will still be way cheaper if you do it yourself.


Is this true? It seems to me that it would be a great deal of work, and if you paid someone else, it would be very expensive. Can someone else comment?
Sailhog


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## SailorMitch (Nov 18, 2005)

Pmoyer and Goose -- great posts. As for me, in my teens I spent time around powerboats my father owned on a lake in southern Virginia. I didn't catch the sailing bug until I came to Maryland in 1971 for a job and met some sailors at work. Then I spent quite a few years sailing other people's boats (OPBs) with the occasional charter of my own. After I decided I wanted my own boat, I spent a total of 5 years looking for one. I found it at the Annapolis show in 1987 -- a Pearson 27. Even at that, it took me 2 more years of looking before I bought a brand new P-27. I owned that boat for nearly 15 years. When I decided to move up, I looked hard for 3 years beore buying my current boat -- a 1988 Pearson 33-2. It does take patience, refining your needs, building the bank account, refining what your sailing goals really are, etc. 

PMoyer -- if you haven't connected with some Triton owners, let me know. I know several owners.


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## freddy4888 (Nov 16, 2006)

pmoyer, your approach to boat buying is too involved. There is no perfect boat that will fit every need or want. Asking for advice and opinions on this forum is a start in the right direction but until you get on the water and start sailing will you determine you and your family needs in a boat. Find a boat that is a close fit and in good shape, buy it and go have a great time, you will be glad you did.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

Depends on how you do it Sailhog. And how large of an area you're dealing with. Some just drill holes to allow the core to dry out and then fill with epoxy. To properly re-core, you need to remove the bottom skin and core, grind the upper layer, then put in new core and glass. And that doesn't even account for the stuff between you and the deck. There might be other ways, but that's the ways I know of.


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

PBzeer,
Thanks for the note. There was a post a few weeks back by a fellow claiming his deck work was going to run him $22,000 on a smaller sailboat. Makes your blood run cold...



freddy4888 said:


> pmoyer, your approach to boat buying is too involved. There is no perfect boat that will fit every need or want. Asking for advice and opinions on this forum is a start in the right direction but until you get on the water and start sailing will you determine you and your family needs in a boat. Find a boat that is a close fit and in good shape, buy it and go have a great time, you will be glad you did.


Freddy, you're outta your mind. Mr. Moyer is, in my opinion, just trying to make the best of the time he has here on planet earth. No better way of *ucking it up by spending tens of thousands of dollars on the wrong boat. Put the crack pipe down and think about what your next sailboat should be.


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

Freddy and Sailhog - I think it requires some of both for the first boat. No matter how much you know about sailing, its different when you own a boat. So you can sail every weekend, but when you step off the dock, the owner will still be there working. You don't realize how much work it requires and how much you WANT to work on her. But, you also need to do SOME research. If you have no requirements, like Goose, then maybe it works, and maybe some luck helps. For under 10k, you are going to be limited. IMHO the more you are going to pay, the more research you might want to do, especially when you get to the top of your budget. You don't want to be stuck.


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## yotphix (Aug 18, 2006)

sailhog said:


> Freddy, you're outta your mind. Mr. Moyer is, in my opinion, just trying to make the best of the time he has here on planet earth. No better way of *ucking it up by spending tens of thousands of dollars on the wrong boat. Put the crack pipe down and think about what your next sailboat should be.


If he is enjoying the process of looking for his boat then he is doing the right thing. He is also not out sailing. If he bought something small and cheap he could be sailing now and thinking about his next boat from the cockpit of his first! He would also begin to establish a pattern of usage that might well influence his thoughts about the next. For some, the best advice might well be: Get a boat, any boat, go sailing! You only live so long.


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

bestfriend said:


> If you have no requirements, like Goose, then maybe it works, and maybe some luck helps.... You don't want to be stuck.


Being stuck, it seems to me, is a real danger. If you've only got a couple of grand on the line, then you'll never be stuck. But if you're looking to buy something to live on, cruise on, explore on, etc., then you want to take a good hard look at what you're trying to do and what will get you there...
sailhog


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## pmoyer (Oct 3, 2006)

Yotphix,

I agree! There's no "right way" and "wrong way." I would love to be able to just grab a boat, carefree, and take off. And if I were younger, I might just do that. I'm getting cautious in my old age.

Besides, if I'm not careful and it's a disaster, I might not get a second chance. I'd really rather not be one of those poor guys choosing between his boat and his wife.

I was just trying to share my experience with other first-time boat shoppers, in hopes that it's helpful.

It's like buying stocks - it's all a matter of personal risk aversion. 

Cheers,
Phil

P.S. When I have enough saved up, I fully plan to go get a boat that's close enough, learn on her, have fun with her, and figure out what I'm going to do next. Fortunately, my boss has already said I can work anywhere in the world where we have offices. In over 90 countries, that's a lot of exploring.... So for now it's going to be fun and learn, and the next one will be a bluewater boat (first stop, South Hampton, UK).


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

Sailhog, I agree. If I had bought the wrong boat, I would be stuck, and maybe not sailing because the boat needed too much work and I bought at the top of my budget. But, I did enough research to find a combination of a solid boat that I could spend a lot of time on for a few years until I learned enough to narrow my search down even more.
pmoyer, its a great post, we all learn from each other. I may not know much, but i've got 41 years of opinions to back it up!

Oh, STOCKS! On the first read through, I thought you said "socks"....


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Pmoyers...I understood your comments on money. My only point was that buying multiple boats *as a path to getting a cruising boat *is quite costly in terms of losses in value, fitting out costs and brokerage fees. If the ultimate boat is affordable now...then buy it without the interim steps. If it is not affordable now...then get something cheap...old...and re-saleable....and go sailing now!


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

Bestfriend,
I have to say that I was a little taken aback by the number of pitfalls that the boat buyer is confronted by when I bought my Catalina. The one thing I had complete control over was what would work for me and my family, and so I gave that part of the equation some real attention. But you're still up against a whole array of technical issues peculiar to each make and model of boat... After all was said and done, I feel I got lucky. And I'm a moron...


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

Me too, SH. The lucky part, not the moron part, you're on your own there Just kidding. I know next to nothing compared to others. Sometimes you're just in the right place at the right time. I looked at the C30, really liked it, knew I could afford it, knew it had a great sailing reputation, but in the end it was just a little tight for what we were going to do in the immediate future. Family comfort.
Trust in your own instincts, pmoyer, and you will be happy.


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## southerncross31 (Sep 16, 2006)

Lots of boats have cored hulls....most j boats for example. Any hull can suffer from delamination if it is not properly maintained. Hulls cored with Airex do not rot. I recently saw a Tartan 37 (solid glass) that had come loose from it's mooring and washed up onto the rocks, the leading edge of the bow having been smashed to bits. After grinding the damage away the fiberglass guy showed me that there was NO RESIN whatsoever in the mat and roving!!!! It was as white as if it had just been applied dry. It was very brittle and weak and there were no exterior symptoms...the only way it was discovered was by cutting through the hull!!! Osmosis could have caused this, but not over such a large area, in such a uniform manner. So even solid glass hulls can have problems.
Re-coring a deck involves nothing more than cutting the outer skin with a skill saw. Prying it off (need a heat gun to help) scraping out the old core, sanding the inner skin, wetting it out (both skin and new core) laying the new core and replacing the outer skin. The hardest part is getting it to look good. Casey wrote a very good book on the subject. Tell your buddy to save 20,000 dollars and help him do it!


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## freddy4888 (Nov 16, 2006)

I am not saying take all your budget for a boat and go to the first broker you can find and buy a boat. But until you do get the boat and sail her, spend time on her, work on her, etc., will you know for sure that you made the right decision. When I bought my first boat I did endless research before buying. After sailing her for a season, I learned more about what I wanted in a boat then from any research I could possibly have done.


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

I think that pmoyer has exhibited a much more consciencious and dispassionate approach than many of us are willing to employ. Kudos. I especially approve of his pursuit of literature on the subject. I think books tend to be a little more "stable" in their advice than the internet and even articles. Probably due to the fact they have to get published and also have the length to fully explain their points. The internet does provide some piquancy to the consideration of various boats and is certain to raise concerns that might have otherwise been over looked. I suppose that paralysis of analysis is always looming. I would add that I believe that you should buy a boat that, should your circumstances change, you will always be happy with long term. I don't mean satisfied with, I mean happy with. We all long for something "better", even Giu the Portagee! None of us should long too heartily for a boat that will "own" us.

Goose's experience is a good one and strikes a bell with my Dutch "thriftiness". A trailer-sailer gets you sailing and is very flexible for changing circumstances. As you are going through the process pmoyer is it gives you something to sail on, and perhaps even get the type of experience on maintenance projects that southern cross mentions. Good experience to have when considering a larger fixer-upper.

I have a 21' Cal with a swing-keel and my "dream boat" is a Flicka. Technically, it's not bigger. Just better for what I envision the future to hold. I confess I am of the "think small" philosophy. I read the recent thread on TV antennas with mixed feelings. I confess to taking a TV out with me while working on the boat at her mooring, in hopes of getting the Packer game. I decided afterwards that that was what the VCR was for. I will not get from sailing, or even sail-boat maintenance, what I want if I am dragging all of the dunnage of my shore-side life along with me.

Having trailered my current boat to any wet spot in the country-side, it will be a fairly big change to be limited to one body of water-practically speaking. Of course, I could keep the Cal for just the flexibility of use. I find that "thinking small" keeps my head in the right place, as well as my wallet, and I lessen the danger of thinking about all of the things I could have on a larger boat. I also know, from my time at sea in ships, there is no boat large enough to not limit you. The boat has not slid down the ways that can make a man happy with a wife who is unhappy about being cooped up in a boat.


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

You had to bring up the TV Antenna post. Don't tell my wife, but it just kills me to put that thing on there. As my dad calls it, "the boob tube". I am of the type that likes to listen to baseball on the radio, even though my boat lies in the shadow of AT+T park.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Well - my 2 cents - poop and get off the pot. You're going to be sailing up and down the Chesapeake. Overnighting, coastal weekending, once a year a two week trip...doesn't matter what boat you buy. Not a lot of them that can't fulfill your requirements. Buy one and get out there and sail it. You will grow to love it, regardless of what it is, and then one day one of it's little idiosyncracies will just tee you right off and you'll sell it and start all over again. You need a hull that doesn't leak, a mast that is stout, sails that aren't too damaged, a head with a privacy curtain and an anchor. Everything else, including an engine, is non-essential and can be acquired when the need arises.


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

Sailormann said:


> You need a hull that doesn't leak, a mast that is stout, sails that aren't too damaged, a head with a privacy curtain and an anchor. Everything else, including an engine, is non-essential and can be acquired when the need arises.


I just read a CW article about a couple (with young children) who gave up their Wall Street careers, bought their boat, and headed to the Caribe. The dad summed up their decision, saying it was difficult to justify from a financial point of view, then concluded: "You just can't get back the time." So they were off. Apparently they had a lot of money to piss away, and that's exactly what they did. I suppose it's all a matter of scale, but you've got to admire the people who let go of the biggest bag of money in order to do what they really want.


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## CBinRI (May 17, 2004)

pmoyer said:


> (This is going to be pretty long - apologies in advance....)
> 
> I've been looking for the first boat for about a year. I'm still looking, but I've learned a lot in the search, and from this board, so I wanted to share progress and thoughts, in case it helps some other new sailors in their searches.
> 
> ...


Excellent post. You're way ahead of where I was not so long ago when I was trying to make similar decisions.

Two minor points: for the type of sailing you describe, I think you would much prefer roller furling for your jib. There may be advantages to hard-core sailors with experienced crew to hank on jibs, but I would guess that when the wind picks up, you and your daughters would brefer to make a few turns on the furler rather than trying to change the head sail in a chop.

Also, I agree with your conclusion that you shouldn't only consider diesels if everything else about the boat is right. I would suggest that if all else is equal, go for the diesel. It is not only safer, as you point out, but lower maintenance and will generally last much longer.

Best of luck. You are certainly headed in the right direction.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

sailhog said:


> Is this true? It seems to me that it would be a great deal of work, and if you paid someone else, it would be very expensive. Can someone else comment?
> Sailhog


Re-coring the deck isn't all that difficult to do.. the main problem with it is if it goes into areas that have a lot of hardware, getting the hardware removed and replaced properly needs a lot of patience and care. It mainly takes time and materials to do yourself, but the skill set required to do it is actually relatively basic.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

> Propane stove. Kind of a silly requirement, but I really detest alcohol stoves. It doesn't matter, since the only time we'd really use it is when we anchor out, and I can use my portable propane camp stove for that. Again, not a requirement, but a nice to have.


I think that a built-in, gimballed stove is probably a good investment. I've heard too many horror stories about injuries and fires caused by non-gimbaled, unsecured camping type stoves used aboard sailboats. Even in a quiet anchorage, all it takes is one idiot in a powerboat to topple the pot off the top of the stove or land the stove itself on the floor.



> Wheel steering. Salingdog really surprised me when he challenged this one. He's absolutely right. There are advantages to tiller steering, particularly on a smaller boat! More room in the cockpit when at anchor (with the tiller raised), easier to move about under sail, one fewer thing to go wrong and require fixing, and better control of the boat (or so they say). Some beautiful extremely seaworthy boats have tiller steering: Westsail 32 and Southern Cross 31, for example. It just makes sense.


I think the sense of feedback you get with tiller steering is far better than you do, even on a good wheel setup. Wheel steering is also generally harder to put a windvane on, and the autopilots tend to be more expensive. You don't really need the massive leverage of a wheel-based steering system if the boat is properly designed and balanced. On my boat, the most effort I have to steer the boat is when it is under power, as the tiller then steers both the boat and the outboard motor. Under sail, I can generally steer with two fingers almost all the time. If you are having to fight the tiller and have a death grip on it to do so... it usually means that either you've got too much sail up, the sails aren't balanced or the sails are overpowered.... all of which can easily be fixed.. especially if you have a roller-furling headsail. 

BTW, as much as I love the Triton, I think that you'd probably be better off in a slightly bigger boat. A 28' boat is awfully tight for four people. An Alberg 30 or Southern Cross 31 would give you a good deal more room, as well as a good turn of additional speed, while not being all that much more difficult to handle or much more expensive to own/maintain.


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## Sequitur (Feb 13, 2007)

sailaway21 said:


> The boat has not slid down the ways that can make a man happy with a wife who is unhappy about being cooped up in a boat.


That nails it perfectly.

The number one decision is to get a boat that the admiral will enjoy being in, or you will have to plan on sailing without her.


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## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

freddy4888 said:


> But until you do get the boat and sail her, spend time on her, work on her, etc., will you know for sure that you made the right decision. When I bought my first boat I did endless research before buying. After sailing her for a season, I learned more about what I wanted in a boat then from any research I could possibly have done.


Amen to that. Only your personal experience can define what makes the perfect boat for you.

I'm on my first sailboat and we benefited from lots of reading and researching on the internet and we found a boat that is perfect for us to learn on, comfortable for both of us as a weekend get away, and purchased for a price that I feel certain will not kill me to get out of. The more I learn the more I understand how fortunate our choice was.

That said, in one short season of sailing my current boat I learned far more about what to look for in my next boat than any amount of reading or research could offer.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

One thing that Don Casey says in his book "Good Old Boat" is that generally, the first boat teaches one a lot about what one does and doesn't want in a boat, and that the second boat is often the one that is kept for years and years... after having learned what is important to them the first time around.


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## jerelull (Jul 7, 2000)

*re-coring the deck*



sailhog said:


> Is this true? It seems to me that it would be a great deal of work, and if you paid someone else, it would be very expensive. Can someone else comment?
> Sailhog


It depends on the boat. I recored half of Xan's deck in two working days, but it's dead flat and easy to replace. [I also replaced the main bulkhead (the one that holds the mast up) one weekend, as it was dead-simple and accessible.]

In general, though, I'd have to say that if you have moderate skills, it's really not that tough. Finishing the job -- making it look good -- is actually the tough part.

--
Jere Lull
Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's new pages: web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI pages: homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/


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## captainmidnight (Dec 19, 2008)

I taught sailing for 10 years in the Seattle area. We started people out on J-24's so they could "learn to sail" then they graduated to Cat 36's for the advanced lessons. I often wondered since most only wanted to sail the 36's if they wouldn't have learned more and become more competent just starting straight on the 36's. If you buy a 28 get it all set up and then turn around to buy the 37 the wife wants......Maybe things would be simpler to start out on the 37 with a competent instructor till you're ready to go it alone. Some couples learn faster to begin with in separate classes.


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