# Power Outlet Sizzle - Help Please



## Philzy3985 (Oct 20, 2012)

I liveaboard. It's a 1985 Catalina 30. I was up at 4:45am ironing my work clothes, running the small space heater, and had the speakers on listening to NPR. All of these were plugged into a power-strip, which was plugged into an outlet.
Anyways, a couple minutes into waking up and getting ready for work, I heard "zzz-zzzz-zzzzzzzz-zZZZZZzzz" and thought "This is a weird sound-bite for them to use-" until I realized there was a little spark at the wall outlet and everything stopped working. (process of about 2 seconds)

So. What now? Neither outlet works. I think - with zero electrical knowledge - that I could just replace the outlet for a few dollars at home depot, plug the wires back in, and be on my way. Is this correct, or should I look deeper down for the source of the problem?

I was advised by the surveyor to replace them with GFCI outlets, but the actual wall-boxes are not large enough to fit the GFCI's. Maybe because of the ease of access I can cut out this one and install a GFCI. This is the outlet I use primarily for things because it's easiest to reach.

Here are views of the outlet(burn). Front, side (access), and back (wire)







Hopefully the collective sailnet wisdom will have had experience and solutions with a problem like this. - Thanks ahead for your input


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

That's a good example of why to use GFCI outlets. 

You need to find the source, or install a smoke detector. If you are really lucky it's just a short in the outlet - but then you are still better off replacing all the wires and checking the 110v in all the way to the plug. 

Frankly, this could have killed you, treat it as a life threatening issue.


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

Iron and space heater? All plugged into the same outlet?


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

No, you should not simply buy new units, plug them in, and be on your way.
You have no idea what caused the failure, and could cause a fire and lose your boat next time.

Either you overloaded the circuit, or you suffered a short circuit.
If you have suffered a ground fault, and had GFCI outlets installed as the surveyor recommended, the outlet would have tripped, saving you from damage.

It's impossible to know for sure what went wrong based on the limited information you've provided. Find an electrician and get it fixed right. Not only will you save your own boat from burning, but perhaps your neighbors' boats as well.

*Edit:
I just noticed that you were running the space heater and the iron. Most likely (but not definitely), you have overloaded the outlet and melted down the guts of the outlet, or perhaps the wire in the run somewhere.

I suspect this was a 15 amp circuit, and the iron and space heater took you up to 14.9 amps. Not enough to trip the breaker for an overload, but enough to "boil the frog", and melt down the wiring.

For future reference, do not _continuously_ load a 15 amp circuit more than 80% of it's rating.

15 * .8= 12 amps. Don't _continuously_ draw more than 12 amps on any single 15 amp circuit. That's for the _whole string of outlets on that 15 amp breaker_, not 15 amps per outlet.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

No Circuit breaker? You've pretty clearly overloaded your circuit, too much current. Question now is did your outlet burn open, have you tripped a breaker, do you even have any circuit protection, what's the state of your shore power connector?

Dangerous situation and you do need to properly address it. If you're 'electrically challenged' get a professional... this is not something to mess around with.


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## Philzy3985 (Oct 20, 2012)

Yeah this is what I suspected. And I'm glad I got the serious responses from you guys - Going to get some contacts for marine electricians this weekend.

I understand the risk of this stuff going bad - so, I'm eager to get it done professionally and put my mind at ease for the safety of my neighbors and my boat and myself.

I honestly tried to replace the outlets and it was very frustrating spending the whole day from one outlet to the next and to find out none of the GFCI units fit (by 1-2mm also, barely anything). But this is why I save money for boat things - hire a professional, replace anything that isn't right.


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## Philzy3985 (Oct 20, 2012)

There is a circuit breaker - it did not trip. The shore power leading to the dockbox has a breaker also and that did not trip.

There was one time that the breaker inside the boat at the panel did go off, so I know that it's operable.

There are two brand new smoke and CO2 detectors I put in when I bought the boat.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

While your at it (replacing outlets) you should also have the conductors looked at. The stuff shown in the photo does not look kosher. Proper boat cable is normally white, should be marked "600volts" and should be stranded wire.


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## KnottyGurl (Feb 8, 2011)

Personally i would replace the whole system from the shore outlet to the new gfci plugs and a few extras put in as well


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

Just a reminder.. before you replace that box.. kill the power. it may be "dead" right now.. but that does not mean there is not live power to it


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

boatpoker said:


> While your at it (replacing outlets) you should also have the conductors looked at. The stuff shown in the photo does not look kosher. Proper boat cable is normally white, should be marked "600volts" and should be stranded wire.


That looks like a factory installation. Wouldn't Catalina use the proper wire back in 1980? (I guess GFCI wasn't part of the AYBC code back then)

The brown is just the outer jacket. It might be proper gauge, stranded wire inside of that.


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## paul323 (Mar 13, 2010)

Bubblehead was dead on - and boatpoker brings up an important point, make sure the person you use is an experienced marine electrician. Boats have certain peculiarities which are not apparent to a regular electrician (e.g. crimping instead of soldering or twisting wires).

As I recall, modern code requires a GFCI for the outlets - depending on your setup, one may be able to handle two or three outlets, it does not have to be on every one (although it can be). It also requires a second at the shore power inlet (an ECLI) .

This may help explain things: http://bluesea.com/files/resources/newsletter/YCDI_ELCI.pdf


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

Delete does not seem to work... somehow I posted this in the wrong thead


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## wingNwing (Apr 28, 2008)

I'm also going to join those who suspected you simply overloaded the circuit; although if that were the case, a properly-sized circuit breaker should have tripped - GFCI or no. If the circuit is 15 amp, that translates to roughly 1200 watts load, which means the space heater alone would be all you can have on it, once you added the iron, too much. If the circuit was 30 amp, then iron + heater should have been okay (assuming there was nothing else) and I'd suspect resistance from corrosion somewhere? Electrical isn't all that conceptually complicated, its just scary because when it goes wrong, it can go wrong BIG.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

Our 1984 Catalina 25 had similar looking wiring, but the conductors were stranded (though I don't think they were tinned) wiring. I never poked at it too closely because we didn't use shore power on that boat.

I'm not surprised that a 33 year old circuit breaker might not have worked. The 30 amp breaker at the dock service panel isn't going to trip for that level of loads. Since you now know that you've overloaded that circuit you should replace all of the wiring on that circuit.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

Actually most irons run between 1200 and 1400 watts and your heater if it’s the typical electric heater runs 1500 watts so you were running anywhere about 2700-2900 watts and if your shore power is 30 amps that’s 30*.8 = 2400 watts MAX that you should have been running on shore power to be safe… you were way past that… I agree with everyone else you need GFI circuits… I run my heater and everything else through a surge protector/circuit breaker strip before it goes to shore power… and I never run any component higher than 1500 watts together with any other high wattage component… unless I run the genny which gives me an extra 1800 watts (Honda 2000).


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## Seaduction (Oct 24, 2011)

Hire a qualified electrician. You wouldn't come to sailnet for advice on chest pains or toothaches, right?


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## Philzy3985 (Oct 20, 2012)

I appreciate all the responses everyone!
I'm going to call a marine repair company today that I got the number for, their website says qualified electricians so I think I'm on the right track. It's absolutely an issue I'm not going to guess or cut corners with.

As far as I know most of the wiring is stock from the factory. There are some things around the engine that were "mickey-moused" as the surveyor put it. I'm glad this is in my sights and at the highest priority now.

Just for what it's worth. I'm always plugged into 30A shore power. Also, I used a surge protector/power strip on this outlet and consciously turned the heater from full (1500) to half (750) power before I plugged in the iron. I should have just turned it off for the couple of minutes, that's my fault. It's darn cold at 5am, though, and I've done this before without a problem. Lesson learned, that's for sure. For example if I am going to use the microwave I turn off everything except for a small low-current light.


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## ShoalFinder (May 18, 2012)

I would suggest you replace everything on that drop, from at least the circuit breaker to the outlet- wire included. Either the circuit breaker is oversized, or it simply failed to trip. Either way, it is not doing the job it needs to do. Circuit breakers fail just like everything else and they don't always fail open. I have replaced many that welded shut or the spring had failed, or they were frozen due to internal corrosion.

The real danger here is what you cannot see. That wire got HOT, and it got hot all along its length. You have no idea if the insulation broke down between the conductors inside the jacket. A qualified electrician can run a megger check on the wire and inspect the wire along its length (if it can be seen) but if the run is at all accessible you should replace it. It's not worth burning your boat to the waterline with you inside to save money on a wire.

While you are waiting, now is a good time to do basic preventive maintenance on your breaker box. De-energize the boat and cycle your breakers repeatedly. Everyone should be doing this from time to time. If a breaker is very hard to throw, that is a warning that it is getting frozen. Cycling it several times should free it up. It should snap smartly back and forth and stay hard at the stop in each direction.


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

guitarguy56 said:


> Actually most irons run between 1200 and 1400 watts and your heater if it's the typical electric heater runs 1500 watts so you were running anywhere about 2700-2900 watts and if your shore power is 30 amps that's 30*.8 = 2400 watts MAX that you should have been running on shore power to be safe&#8230;


Yes and No.. 30amps should be two legs.. so he was drawing all that power through ONE leg. It should have definatly tripped the breaker before smoking the outlet


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

mad_machine said:


> Yes and No.. 30amps should be two legs.. so he was drawing all that power through ONE leg. It should have definatly tripped the breaker before smoking the outlet


I got that... but how many electricians wire 'two 15 amp legs' to each receptacle? If there had been a surge protector with a trip built in the unit would have tripped before zapping the wire behind the outlet... either way he needs to have a good marine electrician check all his wiring now... put some safeguards into the circuit, but due diligence in watching the electrical loads goes a long way.


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

Without a doubt. There is something rotten in his wiring, that is for sure.

I am also beginning to doubt his surge protector is up to snuff too. Those things are not made for the damp conditions aboard and it's trip is probably frozen as well.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

mad_machine said:


> Yes and No.. 30amps should be two legs.. so he was drawing all that power through ONE leg. It should have definatly tripped the breaker before smoking the outlet


30A shore power is 120V Hot, Neutral, Ground. It is one 30A leg not two 15's... Many boats of this vintage were poorly wired, as AC and DC is concerned. Most all of these boats use a single 15A circuit breaker to power every outlet on the boat. This means the last outlet in the chain is depending on all the connections before it to work properly. I have seen as many as NINE outlets on one 15A breaker, all daisy chained...

The MAX I like to see on any 30A shore power cord is 80% or 24A but 70% or 21 amps is even safer. We also can't forget the loads of a water heater, 1200W - 1500W, a battery charger and any other AC sources that need to be added to your heater and iron.

Running an iron and a space heater on a 30A service is a recipe for burning down a marina and I have not even added and water heater, battery charger, microwave or coffee maker.

I see LOTS of stuff melted down by overloading a boats AC system. Breakers do not always trip at face value and any resistance in the terminations or circuit, like we get on boats, can heat a wire beyond the melting point before a breaker trips. This is how boat fires start!

If you want two 1500W devices add a second 30A service to the vessel with its own main breaker and branch circuit for more outlets.. Many do this to run air conditioning but you can install them for boats that winter and heat with electric too. The only other option is to manually shut everything else off before using a high draw item.

Drawing too much current is dangerous ESPECIALLY WITH OLD WIRING ON OLD BOATS!!!


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

I stand corrected.. I am a stage electrician.. usually when I deal with 30amp power.. it is THREE 30amp phases in one box. It is how we break up 60amp 3 phase power. You are correct.. 30amp power is Ground/Neutral/Power


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## Wandersome (Jan 14, 2013)

Ok, as someone who has changed out more than my fair share of outlets.... And trouble shot more connectors than most folks, I'll drop my two cents.... We have several factors involved. The reason we use stranded cable in a moving vehicle is due to the vibration and flex. Otherwise, standard Romex cable would be fine. A problem with stranded is the point of connection from the conductor to the device. I don't know how many times I've seen someone cut out a few strands to make the conductor fit into the connector.... Bad idea. Regardless, a stranded conductors weakness is the connecting point. Usually the device is designed for a solid wire, not a stranded conductor. New outlets allow an electrician to strip a #14 solid and slip it into a quick connector. It makes things faster for the electrician but is killer on the device. The end of a stranded conductor needs to be made solid. We do this by tinning the end of the conductor. It can then be connected safely and securely to the device. It also reduces the bimetallic action shown in the photo of the shore plug. Contamination between types of metal = problem. GFI in a water environment they make a lot of sense. It can be done two ways and must be installed correctly or it does no good. It uses a few cycles to determine a variance between the neutral and the ground. That split second kills the power before it kills you. It does notice ally mean it will prevent fires though. Breakers... Hmmmm breakers are a different monster completely. They are designed to trip fast on a fault but slowly on an over current. I don't recall the specifics and as years go by things have changed as the industry learns more about electricity and protection. 

Conductor. In the early years the ground wire was smaller than the neutral and phase wire. Things change for a reason. The old way often saw a ground wire fuse before a breaker tripped on a fault... Hence all wires are now the same size.

All that said, make sure it's done right. Make sure the ends are tinned or a "squeeze on" is put on the stranded conductor. Ok.... Unless the device is specifically made for stranded conductor. NO off the shelf outlet from Home Depot is going to be made for stranded..... 

Good luck


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## Sunday Driver (Oct 25, 2011)

I just bought some gfi`s , and noticed they have a slim line thats new at home depot
their thinner , those might fit .

good luck


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## CorvetteGuy (Jun 4, 2011)

Replace your breaker with a 20 amp. Replace all wiring with a 12 gauge stranded wire and put a 20 amp GFI next to the panel (the first plug in the series) and tie the others into the load side of the GFI. Replace all plugs in the boat with 20 amp t recepticles and terminate properly, this will protect all the rec. in your boat and also give you more amperage through out. Just one way to rectify easily and also a fairly easy DIY job.


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## wingNwing (Apr 28, 2008)

Philzy, the other thing that many of the liveaboards do here, is run loads like the electric space heater on a separate, dedicated external (appropriately heavy weight) extension cord rather than through the ship's systems, easier to monitor. Plug in at the shore power post and bring aboard through a hatch. Further reduces the possibility of overloading your ships wiring.


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## KBuckley (Sep 17, 2008)

I'd like to see a photo of the plugs that were in the outlet. I think they probably need to be replaced too. 

Breakers will tolerate a small overcurrent for a long time which makes poor contacts so dangerous. Those old outlets are probably all corroded inside, this leads to a warm connection which accelerates the corrosion, which makes more resistance, which heats the connection more, etc.

Don't tin the wire when connecting the new outlets-follow Mainesail's excellent advice (posted elsewhere on the forum) on terminations.


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## Wandersome (Jan 14, 2013)

After reading mainsails info I would follow his advice as well.... Crimping over tinning. Solder is not exactly the same as tinning. Acid is used to clean the copper in solder. It's just called flux. I might be off as its been years since I soldered or tinned but crimping is the way to go.

Rwd


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)




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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

Maine Sail said:


>


Thanks for the photo... that's the correct way to wire it up!

now I split my 30 amp coming in to 2-20 amp supplies lines... one goes to a heavy duty surge protector with trip for my heater... it's dedicated to that only... when warm weather comes around the heater will be put away and the surge protector will be put for another use... the other 20 amp line is for general use like the battery charger, lights, etc... this too is on a 20 amp surge protector w/trip... all wired separately from battery power... the 2000 watt inverter for the induction oven is wired to the house battery but can unplug to to use shore power from the 20 amp protector or directly from the Honda genny w/the inverter... it all works and I've felt around for hot spots on the wires... nothing to report to date!


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Regarding the size of a GFCI;

GFCI outlets are made to be daisy chained with non-GFCI outlets. When this is done the GFCI will protect all of the outlets that are further down the chain.

Applying this to the OP situation; if there are multiple outlets on the 15A breaker on the electrical panel (there _is _a breaker - yes?) you could install a GFCI at the first outlet, and all of the downstream outlets would be GFCI protected.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

I just have to add that you dodged a bullet here. The pictures in the OP scare me 

Also, a GFCI outlet WILL NOT PROTECT YOU from an over current situation. The circuit breaker, and not the GFCI, protects the circuit.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

eherliy is correct. A lot of folks think "GFCI" means protection from any kind of fault, and that isn't true. It protects from ground faults, like when you splash water on the outlet, shorting from ground to one of the other prongs.

When I wired my boat, I just didn't want to have to mentally calculate if I was drawing too much current on a string of outlets. I wanted the full 15 amp capability (Ok, 80% of that) on each outlet, so I installed a single outlet on each 15 amp breaker. Each outlet is GFCI, because it's all alone on it's own breaker.

I used Blue Sea Systems 8027 panel, which is "mains" plus 6 branch circuits.

I'm running 3 outlets, and an onboard battery charger, so I still have two empty slots available for expansion later.

Of course, I still need to mentally calculate my loads when I'm at the dock. Since I only have 30 amp service, if I'm running a heater, I need to think about what I'm running before I fire off the microwave oven or the battery charger, or using a laptop.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

BubbleheadMd said:


> eherliy is correct. A lot of folks think "GFCI" means protection from any kind of fault, and that isn't true. It protects from ground faults, like when you splash water on the outlet, shorting from ground to one of the other prongs.


I wondered when someone would point that out. This was not a GFI failure. Not sayin' GFI isn't smart on a boat.

The scary part of this is that the OP didn't know the cause at a glance; plugging far too much load into one plug, the excuse being that it was most convenient. Fire marshals and vendors have been diligently and repeatedly informing homeowners about overloading plugs and incorrect use of extension cords since before I was born--and that is a long time--and many people still believe they can go through life without learning how things work, without consequence. Electricians and codes labor to make equipment idiot proof, but that is difficult. The breaker could have fused closed--it happens. Scary.


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

also.. just because a cord is warm to the touch does not mean you are overloading it. It is just the nature of the power flowing through it


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## Wandersome (Jan 14, 2013)

Ok and keep cords away from birds.... They (the birds) will eat the currents.... Warm is subjective. Do not coil a cord with power flowing. A coil and a wire can make a transformer. Coiled extension cords if they cross, can cause an over heating due to magnetic flux. Usually not a problem but when near loaded, it can cause a melt down. Earlier someone said something about PVC cover on conductor.... Low melting point. Stay away from PVC. A conductor can pass more current than its rated for but it heats due to resistance in the conductor. Overheating can melt the insulation. Just a few notes.... But really.... It's the birds you have to watch out for.... They love currents.... They are always up on the power lines..... Why? For the currents....


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## Boasun (Feb 10, 2007)

Had electrical problems... Ended up having to replace both of my shore power cables...The old ones were about 30 years old... Had replaced the plug on one of them but still had problems... 
The good news: The new shore power cables worked like a charm and my power bill drop dramically.


Minor detail: Have you priced the cost of new cables? The power bill was over a hundred per month but this last billing was only $40.


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## Wandersome (Jan 14, 2013)

Yep, I'm actually dealing with that here. Ok not connectors on a boat, but power line. A poor connector consumes power. An undersized conductor also consumes power. Both, create heat. If you replaced the cord, take a good look at the female connector on your boat as well. Corrosion and oxidization are resistive. A resistor is the best/perfect consumer of electricity. Good luck. .... Ok another post towards getting new permissions like pm'ing...


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

Rwd said:


> Yep, I'm actually dealing with that here. Ok not connectors on a boat, but power line. A poor connector consumes power. An undersized conductor also consumes power. Both, create heat. If you replaced the cord, take a good look at the female connector on your boat as well. Corrosion and oxidization are resistive. A resistor is the best/perfect consumer of electricity. Good luck. .... Ok another post towards getting new permissions like pm'ing...


If replacing a shore power cord there is only ONE power cord to buy and that is the *Smart Plug* system. 
Some insurance companies even give a discount if you install a Smart Plug cord set and inlet..

NEMA/Marinco/Hubbel plug standard SUCKS in the marine environment and causes nothing but problems.. As a marine electrician I would not be sad to see them outright banned and replaced with the Smart Cord standard or equivalent.

If replacing a shore power cord please do yourself a favor and spend your money wisely, on the Smart Plug.

BTW safely loaded shore power cords should NOT be "warm to the touch"! If they are, you have problems that need to be addressed.......


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## Wandersome (Jan 14, 2013)

MS, I looked at the Smart Plug. I suspect it would work well. It looks like it has a lot better seal than the old nema garbage. As for warm to the touch, define warm..... But I agree, hot or hot spots says something is heating up and that means problems. Often we find faults in lines have been failing for some time before they crap out entirely. Remember that in a marine environment the neut and the ground are of major importance. Burning out a lot of light bulbs? Look for a loose neutral. I'm actually looking forward to the day that the connector I change out is one on my boat. Fair winds.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Maine Sail said:


> If replacing a shore power cord there is only ONE power cord to buy and that is the *Smart Plug* system.
> Some insurance companies even give a discount if you install a Smart Plug cord set and inlet..
> 
> NEMA/Marinco/Hubbel plug standard SUCKS in the marine environment and causes nothing but problems.. As a marine electrician I would not be sad to see them outright banned and replaced with the Smart Cord standard or equivalent.
> ...


That's really nice MS, but what do you do about the other end that plugs into the dock pedestal? I've yet to see a single SmartPlug installation on the shore side.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

BubbleheadMd said:


> That's really nice MS, but what do you do about the other end that plugs into the dock pedestal? I've yet to see a single SmartPlug installation on the shore side.


You keep it cleaned and use terminal grease until the marina decides to allow the other end to go Smart Plug. The side with the most issues is the boat side so you still benefit in a big way. When I see burned inlets, cord ends etc. etc. it is about 75% occurring of the time at the vessel end. The power inlet also has a temp sensor so that it can break the source if there is resistance causing heat..

As I said hopefully someday we get what we deserve and that is a better, safer and more reliable standard for shore power cords and receptacles... The current standard was never designed with the marine environment in-mind. It was adapted to work in the marine environment.


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

This is true. The boat end would see more movement due to the boat's inherent instability compared to the dock. Use Dieelctric grease to keep the contacts clean of corrosion and flowing as much power as they can and secure the cable so it does not move about and you should be ok. 

It might also be a good idea to disconnect and check everytime you leave the dock


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

My shore power cords are hard wired at the boat end, ... fewer and tighter connections, never had a problem.


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## Navigator Wannabe (Nov 4, 2012)

Sizzle and burn, especially when there was an electric load, could have been an almost open contact. (Corroded away, shaken loose, whatever.)
These arc, and generate heat.
(And, btw., would never trip an GFCI, because the current flowing is not flowing to ground.)

The load of a space heater and an iron should not be enough to fry even a semi-decent installation, something was wrong.

For the installation being as good as before, it should be enough to just open the box and replace whatever is burnt with same quality home depot parts.

For your entertainment:
If the burn is somewhere where current should have been flowing, it was an open contact. 
If it is through something that should not be, but was connecting life wire to ground, it was a ground fault.

No difference for the repair: Replace what is burnt, and you are as good as you were before.

Ground fault protection does not primarily prevent fires; it prevents electrocutions. So while having it is a brilliant idea, but it would not necessarily have prevented your sizzle.

Also, in case you are considering installing it, it does not have to be in the power outlet box; can be in the main breaker box, too, if you have 3-strand wiring.



Philzy3985 said:


> I liveaboard. It's a 1985 Catalina 30. I was up at 4:45am ironing my work clothes, running the small space heater, and had the speakers on listening to NPR. All of these were plugged into a power-strip, which was plugged into an outlet.
> Anyways, a couple minutes into waking up and getting ready for work, I heard "zzz-zzzz-zzzzzzzz-zZZZZZzzz" and thought "This is a weird sound-bite for them to use-" until I realized there was a little spark at the wall outlet and everything stopped working. (process of about 2 seconds)
> 
> So. What now? Neither outlet works. I think - with zero electrical knowledge - that I could just replace the outlet for a few dollars at home depot, plug the wires back in, and be on my way. Is this correct, or should I look deeper down for the source of the problem?
> ...


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## Navigator Wannabe (Nov 4, 2012)

I think overload is out as a cause: 
He said he had a functioning circuit breaker.
Overload would have tripped that breaker. 
If it does not trip, there is no overload.

If the installation is only marginally following any electrical code, or reason, everything in the circuit will carry *at least* the amps the circuit breaker will permit.
That is what a circuit breaker is designed for: 
Breaking the circuit BEFORE anything starts smoking.

Catalina might have been a bit sloppy, but putting in circuit breakers that allow enough load to start cable fires would be criminally insane, and they sure are not, and did not do that.

That pretty much only leaves a ground fault (less likely, because the sizzle happened to happen under load), or a high resistance, almost open contact.
Either way, whatever happened, happened in the outlet box. Repair/replace.

PS: A short circuit is pretty much the only thing that can't have happened: That would have triggered the breaker, without time for sizzling.



BubbleheadMd said:


> No, you should not simply buy new units, plug them in, and be on your way.
> You have no idea what caused the failure, and could cause a fire and lose your boat next time.
> 
> Either you overloaded the circuit, or you suffered a short circuit.
> ...


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

I disagree. It isn't always that simple.

The boat is an '85 Catalina. The boat is nearly 30 years old, which offers plenty of time for age and corrosion to introduce extra resistance into an electrical circuit.

My assumption is that the OP is running over 80% of the rating for the circuit, at the end of a long wire run, the wiring or the contacts in the outlet begin to heat up, it melts down, causing the "sizzle" and now the outlet is out of commission.

As I said in my post where you quoted me, running at close to 100% of the circuit's rating _continuously_, on 30 year old wiring and equipment, is likely to induce extra heat, which would eventually cause a failure.

You make it sound as if electrical components don't at all to break down with age, especially in a marine environment, and that it's safe to run at 100% of a circuit's rating indefinitely. I disagree with that.

The "80% rule" not only applies to vessels, it applies to shore-side installations that aren't even subject to the constant motion and corrosion of the marine environment.

That's cool though. You be you, and I'll be me.


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

copper wire corrodes. Salt water is an excellant corroder. Old wires have had plenty of time to corrode, get brittle, and break. This will cause either an overloading (a cable meant to pass 20 amps will not be able to pass that when half the strands are corroded and broken) or a short. 

I think if that were my boat, I would consider replacing most of the wiring as you get a chance to. I would also replace all the breakers and outlets as they too will probably have some corrosion inside

It might also be a good time to consider bringing your outlets up to household code (flip them over so the ground pole is up)


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## Wandersome (Jan 14, 2013)

When did flipping become code? I like to install them ground down....


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## Navigator Wannabe (Nov 4, 2012)

So then we agree that there likely was a high resistance, or intermittent contact. At one spot, i.e. in the outlet box, right?

In that case, running everything at at 80% of rated power is not a solution.
Such a sizzle-spot will start a fire at 15 amps, as it did.
Run it at 80%, let it corrode a bit further, and it will start the same fire at 12 amps.
And so on, you can't reduce the load until there is not enough power to start a fire.
The only remedy is getting rid of the (well, all) defective, high resistance, parts and connections. (I think we agree that the wires will corrode at the connection points, right?)
If you notice a problem like this, and just reduce the load on the wiring, you basically are ASKING the fire hazard to come back another time when you are not looking.

Btw, I think sizzle is arcing, not boiling insulation.



BubbleheadMd said:


> I disagree. It isn't always that simple.
> 
> The boat is an '85 Catalina. The boat is nearly 30 years old, which offers plenty of time for age and corrosion to introduce extra resistance into an electrical circuit.
> 
> ...


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## Navigator Wannabe (Nov 4, 2012)

Two legs?

I have never sen a shore power cord with 4 prongs.
Only phase, neutral, and ground.



mad_machine said:


> Yes and No.. 30amps should be two legs.. so he was drawing all that power through ONE leg. It should have definatly tripped the breaker before smoking the outlet


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

Navigator Wannabe said:


> Two legs?
> 
> I have never sen a shore power cord with 4 prongs.
> Only phase, neutral, and ground.


if you read beyond that post.. I mentioned that I was wrong. I was thinking of work... we use 6 panels of 400amp service at the theatre I work at.. so using 30amp service to mean means a gang of three 30amp circuts


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## Dougtiff (Oct 27, 2012)

Install the GFI outlet up stream of all the other outlets, if you read the instructions it will state that it protects 3 or 4 outlets, i forget how many.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

Navigator Wannabe said:


> Two legs?
> 
> I have never sen a shore power cord with 4 prongs.
> Only phase, neutral, and ground.


Plenty of them out there in a 50A 125/250V cord except the fourth "prong" is the metal ring which is Earth ground on a 50A 125V/150V shore cord.. There are also 50A 125V cord sets that are single phase...


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## Philzy3985 (Oct 20, 2012)

I'm learning a good amount from your input and doing some research. 

A professional electrician is coming out the day after tomorrow and I'll get my answers and basically fix/replace everything I can afford, highest priority items immediately.

The plugs from my heater, iron, and stereo that morning were all plugged into the power strip. They are all normal and look unaffected The power strip's prongs going into the outlet that sparked are not burnt and they look as usual, the wire appears okay and the power strip still fully works. Of course, the wire (from the outlet to the power strip) was warm, not extremely hot, to the touch when I pulled it out a moment after the sizzle. 

Anyways. I'd love for the electrician to test a few things and tell me exactly what went wrong so I can put the mystery to rest. 

Thanks again, the wealth of knowledge here is greatly appreciated, as always.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

Philzy3985 said:


> Anyways. I'd love for the electrician to test a few things and tell me exactly what went wrong so I can put the mystery to rest.


There is no mystery. The prongs in the female part lost their tension with age and perhaps chronic overheating, the connection became worse, eventually to the point of arcing. This is not at all uncommon in older homes, where replacement of lose plugs is a good idea. This also happens to plugs that are not overheated, only worn due to age or poor construction. However, you supplied the clue about overloading. In this sense, overload does not mean you were over the rated capacity of the circuit, depending on where the heater and iron were set, but you were most likely over the long term practical limit, which is perhaps only 70%, depending on the age and quality of the fittings.


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## Navigator Wannabe (Nov 4, 2012)

Are you being obscene here???



:laugher



pdqaltair said:


> There is no mystery.
> 
> ... female part lost their tension with age and perhaps chronic overheating, the connection became worse, ...
> 
> ...


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## Philzy3985 (Oct 20, 2012)

A quick update, for reference sake.

A pro came out from a highly reputable marine service company. He determined that the outlet just got too hot and fried one wire. He cut the wire off and shortened it to the length that was still good, plugged them all back in, and it all works again. He tested the main breaker switch, and pretty much everything else behind the control panel. After talking more, I asked that they come back to replace the shore-power receptacle on the boat-side, and put fuses on the wires for my 'battery select' switch, as recommended previously by the surveyor. He said I should replace my shore power cord, so that's on my list too. 

So, nothing apparently massively serious, so that was a relief. I asked all about tracing it and what else could go wrong but the basic answer is "Catalina did the bare minimum throughout the 80s and this is it."

Since then, though, they misplaced my paperwork or something because they haven't called me back to reschedule finishing the other stuff. four 5-star reviews on yelp, so, we'll see how it all goes.

Thanks everyone here


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

Philzy, the thread has drifted a bit. Your problem is you need to bring in a *competent* professional.

Not all marine professionals are created equally. Drop an email to your surveyor. Ask about marine electricians he respects based on their work. Ask around the dock if anyone has used a local marine electrician.

Find someone good and trust their advice. As a live aboard this is your home. Boat fires, while rare are a very scary thing. If you see a boat burn you'll never forget how hot and how fast they burn. While they electrician is there ask questions about what you need to know about the system.

You also mentioned having smoke and CO2 dectors on board. Some, not all smoke detectors will last in a marine environment. You want to look for something labeled "for marine and RV use". A Home Depot CO2 dector is worthless on a boat. Marine dectors are calibrated differently. See this BoatUS arcticle.

When in doubt kill the main breaker, then kill the breaker on the dock. Do you have the correct fire extinguisher on board?

When you own a boat you're always learning something new. Best of luck, and please post an update to this thread to let everyone know how you made out.


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