# Which are the crap yachts



## gavinandrebecca (Oct 28, 2007)

Hi everybody
we, like lots of others are coming to the US to , hopefully, buy a boat to sail back to australia. I know about oz custums tax, GST, _PLUS_ the ridiculous quarrantine issues which must be navigated to import a yacht. Now it seems every yachty is quick to say this is good, i love my boat, so what i am after is which are bad, and why? And is it dangerous to take a x-charter beneteau 411 or jeaneau40 across the pacific and why? been looking at tayana 42, 39 fast passage, corbin 39, to name a few, though these are '80s and i can get 2000 chartererers for same if not cheaper.
Any way who has owned a crap boat


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Crap boat??

CD...someone for you!!!


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Let's get a little more specific about what exactly you are looking for in a boat. I'm sure you do not want an expository on every lousy boat ever built. There is quite a bit of knowledge available here but no one wants to type for two hours trying to guess what you're looking for.

You've read through the boat reviews here from the members?

Charter boats are looked on with suspicion much like used rental cars. The consensus seems to be that they get used and abused. I'm not sure that rules one out, but it does make sense to look at one with a more jaundiced eye.

The only other consensus I've seen here is that Catalina's are glorified BB-Q stands, the Portugese invented the ultimate yacht around 1898 and the design is unchanged to this day, and no one has ever bought a MacGregor.


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## gavinandrebecca (Oct 28, 2007)

i am after a 40ish' yacht that will safely handle a pacific crossing. A lot of chaterer are shoal draft and would prefer a stiffer (stiffest) hull that is predictable surfing down large swells, strong enuf to take the pounding, rigged approriately. Also not much tankage on charter boats. Cut to the chase, the fast passage 39?, any thoughts.i know francis stokes sailed one around. AND has any one here bought x charter and taken them across nasty seas?I have read previous logs but thanks for advice. This is a great forum. hmmmmmmmmmmm friend has a catalina 387 which the wife loved, can't wait to tell her.


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## Zanshin (Aug 27, 2006)

I would recommend you look at boats in the Caribbean - they are much cheaper there than in the USA and the selection of ex-charter boats that must be sold (particularly when the new boats arrive) is very good. You also have an easier sail towards the Panama canal.
Many of the charter boats are sailed to their destinations from France. That includes those SunSail/Moorings etc. hulls in Tahiti and the Whitsundays so - quod erat demonstrandum - they can make it. 

I bought an ex-charter boat in the Caribbean. So far only some storms in the leewards and windwards but soon I'll be going through the canal and will be in Sydney sometime in February. I just talked with a marina up by Pittwater in order to reserve some dock space upon my arrival.


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## nightowle (Aug 2, 2006)

Sailaway 21:
Your comment is too funny!:
"The only other consensus I've seen here is that Catalina's are glorified BB-Q stands, the Portugese invented the ultimate yacht around 1898 and the design is unchanged to this day, and no one has ever bought a MacGregor."
I got a good chuckle out of that! Well said, indeed.
__________________


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## gavinandrebecca (Oct 28, 2007)

Thanx Zanshin. We are starting in BVI. What did you buy and any chance you can keep me posted on how you go with Oz custums and Quarantine. wife thinks production boats are unstable in big seas, and flimsy. I mean if a tayana hit something it would bounce off, if jeanneau hit a turtle, it sinks. (bit of an _extreme_ analogy) so please keep me posted, and sailaway i dont understand the portugese pun?


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

gavinandrebecca said:


> .....I dont understand the portugese pun?


Stick around on Sailnet and you soon will!

If you're shopping in the boat range and budget range you suggest, I'm not so sure there are a lot of "crap" boats... Which ever boat you look at needs to be looked at hard and carefully regardless of "brand".... for example I recently looked over a Swan that was definitely "crap".


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## gavinandrebecca (Oct 28, 2007)

Ok maybe i should rename or start another thread, but it seems every boat you look at, people who own them now say "l love mymacgregor" and you only have check the reviews here, that the boat any member owns now is this best, yet there are thousands. I know i guess it is like cars and "what is my purpose in life?" Just funny no one has owned a bad boat, though ive been on a few, and one was a roberts 25 which had no traveller the tiller vibrated horribly and the owner sitting there say "beautiful isn't she" Looked good, sailed [email protected]#T


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## Zanshin (Aug 27, 2006)

I bought a 2003 Jeanneau 43DS. Well equipped with in-mast furling, genset, A/C {which I don't use} and I'm adding the radar / watermaker / windgen in St. Maarten. The boat was the largest I felt comfortable with single-handing; but there were some great deals to be had on the Bendytoe 473's and also the really big 50/52/54s coming out of charter. But who in their right mind wants 5 midget-sized heads?

I'm not going to stay in Oz with the boat and have already talked with the customs people here - they want a 15% of the boat's local value (almost double the BVI price) placed in bond. I've talked with a dealer here who says I could probably get away with not having to post the bond.

A good surveyor will tell you the shortcomings for blue water cruising and also the costs of remedying any design deficiencies. There are also a couple of good bluewater boats available in the BVI that might fit your budget or expectation and I can recommend Todd Duff at BVI Yacht Sales who is a liveaboard and blue water sailor to steer you in the right direction. No, I didn't buy my boat through him but should have.

I personally think that with a crusing speed of 8 knots, a flexible schedule, and modern weather reporting systems you will be able to avoid the really big storms.


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## gavinandrebecca (Oct 28, 2007)

thanks z
dont need crew by any chance?
Will be in LA 9th jan


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

Something to bear in mind, purchasing a boat is not just a practical decision, but an emotional one as well. While Boat X may be perfect for what you want, it also may be butt ugly to you. It can be difficult, to say the least, to spend the requisite funds on a boat you don't like looking at.

Or, it may be the perfect boat, when you look at it at the dock, but have flaws once under weigh. And as always, there is the cliche of "One man's junk, is another man's treasure."

Great deals are usually only found by accident, and those accidents usually only happen if you're out looking. Not at any specific "non-crap" boat, but anything available.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

gavinandrebecca said:


> Hi everybody
> we, like lots of others are coming to the US to , hopefully, buy a boat to sail back to australia. I know about oz custums tax, GST, _PLUS_ the ridiculous quarrantine issues which must be navigated to import a yacht. Now it seems every yachty is quick to say this is good, i love my boat, so what i am after is which are bad, and why? And is it dangerous to take a x-charter beneteau 411 or jeaneau40 across the pacific and why? been looking at tayana 42, 39 fast passage, corbin 39, to name a few, though these are '80s and i can get 2000 chartererers for same if not cheaper.
> Any way who has owned a crap boat


I can't offer any advice about the x-charterboats. Zanshin seems to know a fair bit about it, but I would also direct you to an earlier post he made about a problem he had with his ex-charter boat (which may or may not have had any connection to its charter history): http://www.sailnet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30539&highlight=lost+rudder (see post #14 for details)

However, I can toss out a few other models that are similar in design and size to the double-ender/canoe sterns you listed:

-Valiant 40/42
-Pacific Seacraft 37
-Pacific Seacraft 40
-Southern Cross 39
-Slocum 43
-Alajuela 38
-Ingrid 38
-Westsail 42
-Westsail 43

I've always liked that Corbin 39. It comes in aft and centercockpit versions. Good luck to you.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

You are looking for specific attributes that aren't likely to be found in the charter fleet, in my opinion, because those boats exist to serve drinks and food in pretty locales, not to make passage.

There was an Aussie delivery skipper here a few months back who seemed to know his stuff...he took something in the 45' range out of San Diego, I think, and half his gear broke...can't remember his name.

Anyway, here's a tip: A lot of people spend years getting decent passagemakers fully equipped and then they hit their first patch of crappy weather, start fighting and decide that they hate sailing. Frequently, this happens in Panama or the Western Caribbean. Consequently, you can find extensively equipped (sometimes overly so), priced-to-move "expedition boats" bobbing on moorings just in front of the Canal, abandoned by people who didn't take into account the human element of long-term cruising before they spent $250,000 on a boat that could circumnavigate. There are also a lot of people who try to "save their marriages" via cruising, only to learn that if you don't like your spouse on land, you'll HATE them with bilges full of vomit in a Force 9 off some tropical reef...

So I would get a type "cruiser" and a length range "38-45 feet" and a place "Central America" into Yachtworld.com and start reading. If you use brokers, owner contacts and third-party research (go to various cruiser forums and say "Does Boat Model X, year Y, have known bad habits for the purposes of passagemaking and an eventual life off the Great Barrier Reef?", you will soon narrow things down to a few choices.

Then you can spend a week in Panama visiting boats. I've seen some great bargains (that may have been junk, but you have to do your homework), and had I not found our passagemaker literally without bicycling distance, a trip to Panama to see half a dozen prospects was very much something I was considering...because purchasing someone else's failed dream may seem ruthless, but it's an excellent way to lower one's own costs.

I just recalled that the Sea of Cortez in northwest Mexico is also a good place to find "dead dream" boats.


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## seabreeze_97 (Apr 30, 2006)

Having never owned a Mac, nor known anyone who owned one, I can only speculate as to why people love them, but I'd guess it has something to do with the way it's used. When the owner tires of "sailing", or bad weather looms, they can crank up and zip back to the dock. Don't get me wrong. If that's where you live, good on ya! It's just not in the same class as what I would consider a true sailboat.


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## Morgan3820 (Dec 21, 2006)

Obviously avoid Hunter, Catalina and Beneteau for anything other than a planter in front of a restaurant. Another approach might be to shop for a designer. Perry designed boats always seem to be built well . Brewer, and crealock also come to mind. I always prefer a boat with a single designer rather than one from a design "team' (committee)


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## gavinandrebecca (Oct 28, 2007)

Hey thanks every one, been looking for two years but mainly at x charter, the realised they are light shoal draft, consequently low on stability. Then there is the rig?? have been on race boat (X sydney-hobart) and the helmsman put the sail, plus half the crew in the drink! Wife is now convinced that these production boats lay down at sthe first puff. I think i'll start another thread, but has any 1 heard of bene, jene catalinas capsizing?? Thanks for your sage advice, I do like the fast passage though.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

If you fancy stuff like the Bass Strait, the "Bene, Jene, Catalina" production boats (sometimes called "Bendytoys") aren't for you. I would say that Australia and South Africa are similar in that the band of "coastal" sailing is rather narrow, and has the potential to turn "bluewater" far too quickly for the light-air, "casual" sailing that's dominant in North America.

There's nothing wrong with these boats, and they make a lot of people happy, and, properly run, they can do oceanic work. But many, many models are not appropriate for such work, and every year we read of U.S./French production boats going to pieces in the Transpac or the Newport race. It's not worth it if you know you are looking at regular instances of 40-50 knot gales. Charter boats are too fluffy for that, and there are better choices from more selective builders.


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## donradclife (May 19, 2007)

One suggestion would be to find the yard which maintains the charter fleets, bring a few beers, and have a chat with them after quitting time. I spent a winter in a Sunsail yard and got some eye-opening info about the newer charter boats. Some manufacturers have started glueing the grids into the hulls with polyurethane, rather than glassing them down. The yard was trying to fix one of those boats which had hit a rock and broken the glue joint. They had to strip the entire interior and glass the grid back in. They also got a fax that the forestays were pulling out of the Cyclades--latest and cheapest line of Beneteaus. They checked one and sure enough, the stem fitting was pulling out of a very light layup. That was the year that the Bavarias were out of the water having their keel supports strengthened.

Having said all that, I have taken a Bendytoy (First 456) around the world without problems. If you see more than 40 knots between the Caribbean and OZ, you are either damned unlucky or aren't watching the weather.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

donradclife said:


> Having said all that, I have taken a Bendytoy (First 456) around the world without problems. If you see more than 40 knots between the Caribbean and OZ, you are either damned unlucky or aren't watching the weather.


That's a big Bendytoy, and the Firsts were built a little better in my opinion than the current models.

I think you may have more experience or better judgement than most if you did a circ. without incident, but a 45 1/2 footer is inherently going to be a stronger boat than something in the high 30s, even in the production boat style.

All things being equal, I would rather (if short-handed like most cruisers) have something beefier, if only for the reason that 1) I'm not likely to be in a rush, and 2) a beefier hull can take a couple more shots on a reef before failing, buying me time to either solve my problem or safely get off the boat.


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## gavinandrebecca (Oct 28, 2007)

Hey thanks boys and bas straight NO F%^$N WAY! I remember the 98 sydney hobart race. Dont plan on going below 20 lat, way too cold 4 me. think i will aim at my original 3 choices


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

Morgan3820 said:


> Obviously avoid Hunter, Catalina and Beneteau for anything other than a planter in front of a restaurant. Another approach might be to shop for a designer. Perry designed boats always seem to be built well . Brewer, and crealock also come to mind. I always prefer a boat with a single designer rather than one from a design "team' (committee)


Excuse me, a planter in front of a resturant? Bull xxxx.

If you want to tell the original poster why they are not intended for Long Range Cruising; fine. But there are plenty of us that use our boats for there intended purpose, which in my case is costal cruising.
Why does this crap happen everytime?
IF you purchase a boat with the intentions of using it in the way IT WAS DESIGNED to be used, than you will be a very happy boat owner. Buy a Bending to sail across the Pacific and your not going to be happy, but to say that you should plant flowers in them is crap.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

I agree. Slagging the Bendytoys/Catalinas, etc. for not being anything except exactly what their owners want is ridiculous. Very, very few sailors do anything but fair-weather coastal sailing, and the emphasis is always going to be on convenience, spaciousness and rapid, windward sailing. The boat designs that emphasize safety, endurance and durability in the face of big seas (which they in turn may rarely see even in the open ocean) are frequently narrow, snug and deep..._by design_ (less distance to fall, more interior devoted to stowage/systems).

It's a stupid and unproductive argument. Catalinas are the most popular boats in the world because they have the best combination of features that suit the intentions of the largest number of sailors. I'm not one of those sailors, but even I realize that I've got the wrong boat for Lake Ontario even as I believe it's the right boat for a Marquesas run.

The only problem is when people think coastal boats are adequate for blue water, but that's not a design issue...it's an ignorance issue. You don't take a Camry off-roading, but that doesn't mean it's a crappy car. It's an exceptionally good car...if you don't drive off-road!


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## Sailormon6 (May 9, 2002)

I could not agree with you more, sailortjk1. Yacht designers don't design yachts that nobody wants. They design boats that they believe have a market. MacGregor designed the 26X for people who want to get to their destination quickly, sail around a bit, and then go home. Those buyers aren't sailing purists. They'd rather motor than drift. They don't care about racing. They don't need a boat that can stand up to a gale and big seas, because they'll never sail it in a gale or big seas. It serves their needs, and they're perfectly happy with it. When people demean those boats or their owners, it reveals more about the critics than it does about the boats. The critic reveals his own blind spots - his biases. He can't see the value that others see in the boats. 

I've crewed on J's and Etchells and Catalina's and Beneteaus and Hunters and Pearsons and C&Cs and S2's and a variety of other racing and cruising boats, and have had as much fun sailing and racing Beneteaus as Js. I've seen well-sailed MacGregors beat more highly-regarded boats, and I've seen well-sailed Catalinas humiliate similarly sized Js, scratch.

Many boats that are designed to sail and race around lakes and bays have no business going to sea, and many boats that are designed to go to sea can't sail anywhere other than in trade winds. Neither type of boat is what I would call a "crap boat." They are what they are. The former would be no good at sea, and the latter would be no good racing around the buoys. A few boats can do both fairly well, but that doesn't mean that all other boats are "crap boats."

If a young family can afford to learn to sail and race on an inland lake in a MacGregor or a Hunter, it doesn't reflect well on others to demean their choice.


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## AjariBonten (Sep 7, 2007)

I think that these last three posts have said it all. Every boat to it's use.

Maybe the original question should have been stated something like.....

What boats/models/years might be know for problems I should be on the lookout for?

It seems every maker has a model, or set of model years that have an inherent problem or two.

I have a great respect for Tayanas; but didn't they have a year or two when they tried an experimental epoxy or lamination that turned out disastrous? Maybe it was another maker, but you get my point.

I know there are way too many examples of this to cover all of the possibilities; but there seem to be some that come up with fair regularity, adn it would be a much more productive conversation than "Yacht XYZ is a bunch of CRAP!!!!!"

More useful would be, "If looking at Yacht ABC, watch for ##$$#, because in the mid -90's they did this or that...."

I agree with the slamming of Catalinas, Hunters, etc; it's just ridiculous. If Catalinas were so bad, why are so many from then70's and 80's still sailing with happy owners. Simple answer; they answer a need; and for people with that specific need, they are the best answer.

My 2 cents worth and "you get what you pay for"...(meaning my opinion, not referring to boats)......

Fred


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## SailinJay (Dec 6, 2002)

AjariBonten said:


> I think that these last three posts have said it all. Every boat to it's use.
> 
> Maybe the original question should have been stated something like.....
> 
> ...


I think the original post was fine; the problem arose when a few folks decided to engage in something that's fairly common on Sailnet--bashing of production boats. I really don't understand it---if they have such great boats themselves then they should be thankful/happy/content. The need to belittle others is a pathology.


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## AjariBonten (Sep 7, 2007)

Hmmmm, I agree about the first post. Mainly I think the thread title contributed to the tone of the conversation. Some things are like cheese to rats, as it were.

I don't get the bashing others stuff either; never have. There are some people who make it their life's work, though.

Personally I think its a problem of teeny weenies. 

Fred


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

I rather have a recent Benetau than any boat prior to 1990. And I don't care what boat it is.


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

Giulietta said:


> I rather have a recent Benetau than any boat prior to 1990. And I don't care what boat it is.


I'd rather have a Discovery 55...or










or the Outbound 52...










Can someone tell me where that money tree is...?????????????


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## SailinJay (Dec 6, 2002)

AjariBonten said:


> Hmmmm, I agree about the first post. Mainly I think the thread title contributed to the tone of the conversation. Some things are like cheese to rats, as it were.
> 
> I don't get the bashing others stuff either; never have. There are some people who make it their life's work, though.
> 
> ...


Good point, Fred. The word "crap" kind of did point the way, didn't it?


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## gavinandrebecca (Oct 28, 2007)

Yes boys i cast the bait and got some bites. One mans wine is another's poison. I get the picture now though, this is a great forum. I've been on catalina 387 and it is fabulous, even if the Farr 1104 slides past every saturday. But i understand, not much tankage less storage area than cruiser types. and i think i would want a cutter rig on long trips too, But if i coastal sailed alwys , i would get one. I dont think there are crap boats, just yachties making crap decisions with what they think their boat can do, or was made for. lets end it on that. I start a new thread, any one sailed a fast passage 39


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## SimonV (Jul 6, 2006)

It’s all sport, if you ride a Honda, Suzuki are crap, it’s the same with boats. If you try defending a Catalina/Hunter/Bendy you may get one or two backers but a majority will jump in and bag the them all, it’s easier. 
Any boat can and will cross oceans it’s a matter of preparation, I would quite happily take, say a Catalina 36 across the Pacific, east to west staying between 10' N and 20' S at the right time of the year. I would not want to sail in the other direction, the boat might take it, but I recon it would break me.

EDIT: In the end you buy what you like and what you can afford and make the most of it.


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

I've had some conversations with a Hunter P42 owner, 1991 model I think.
He's sailed Calif to NZ twice now and is prepping for a third trip. He's been very happy with the performace of his boat.


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## SimonV (Jul 6, 2006)

xort said:


> I've had some conversations with a Hunter P42 owner, 1991 model I think.
> He's sailed Calif to NZ twice now and is prepping for a third trip. He's been very happy with the performace of his boat.


Did he say which way he went for the up hill run home.


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## jbinbi (Apr 2, 2006)

Before you look at ex charter, realize that Group Bene owns Bene and Jeaneau, and most of the boats in charter are these models made specifically for the charter companies (many moorings or sunsail boats are actually these models).

As an owner of a Bene 373, others in my family own a Bene473 and Catalina 42, I would say all of these boats are great day sailing and coastal sailing boats. Having done a fair amount of coastal ocean racing, I would say the stock fit of these boats is NOT suitable for crossing the pacific unless you happen to get 30 days of non stormy weather. However, I believe if you upgrade any of these boats standing and running rigging, they could be passage makers.

If you intend to do day sailing and coastal sailing, why not purchase a boat for that here if you are looking to save money, and then have it shipped over?

If you are looking to do lots of blue water passagemaking, then ben/cat/hunter etc. would not be my choice, even though I own one of them.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Valiente said:


> If you fancy stuff like the Bass Strait, the "Bene, Jene, Catalina" production boats (sometimes called "Bendytoys") aren't for you. I would say that Australia and South Africa are similar in that the band of "coastal" sailing is rather narrow, and has the potential to turn "bluewater" far too quickly for the light-air, "casual" sailing that's dominant in North America.
> 
> There's nothing wrong with these boats, and they make a lot of people happy, and, properly run, they can do oceanic work. But many, many models are not appropriate for such work, and every year we read of U.S./French production boats going to pieces in the Transpac or the Newport race. It's not worth it if you know you are looking at regular instances of 40-50 knot gales. Charter boats are too fluffy for that, and there are better choices from more selective builders.


Val,
I hear where what you are saying but reality is most of the popular production boats are more than capable of handling Australian conditions with the proviso of keeping an eye on the weather.
Bass Strait's horrendous reputation is largely based on the Sydney - Hobart race. Now don't get me wrong, the Strait can be nasty and can turn on you in quite unexpected ways but most of the time a well founded Benetteau type would be able to handle the conditions PROVIDED they are not racing or on a tight schedule. That holds true for all of the east coast of NSW down to Tasmania. The B may not be yours or my first choice but they are capable. They'd pound like buggery but most modern cruiser-racers do. While not wishing to recommend them Bs actually have performed quite creditably in the Syd-Hob. Every now and then the NSW coast goes completely feral and no sane person would be out there no matter how well founded your craft but those severe depressions tend to give plenty of warning of their eta. The one place you do not want to be is to the west of Tasmania cos there ain't much chance to run and hide . The last mate of mine to cross the strait did so in early winter wearing mainly shorts and t-shirts. They simply sat in the port of Eden (southern NSW) and waited for the right window. 
Personally I think that the best argument for a heavily built cruising boat is as much about comfort at sea as it is about overall strength. Plenty of Bavaris, Benees, Duffers and the like are out cruising the South Pacific and I know of at least one Oz skipper who brought a Hunter back from the US with no major problems. 
Only thing I would stress is that Californian boats tend to be somewhat lightly rigged compared to their Oz cousins. If I was buying in California I'd want to factor in all new standing rigging. 
Sorry, this rant kind of got out of hand and a tad off topic. Really all I was trying to emphasise is the difference between cruising with no fixed timetable and racing.
Cheers mate


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

You might want to look at some of the older "tried and true" boats. Alberg 37 is a boat you should take a long look at. Rhodes Bounty, Hinckley Sou'Wester, Corbin 39, Bayfield 36 or 40, Niagara 35, Whitby 42... etc., etc.

There are some boats that have less then sterling reputations for quality, quite a few actually, but the best thing to do might be to look around for a while and then ask questions about specific boats that you find interesting... I am sure you'll have no shortage of responses...


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

tdw said:


> Val,
> I hear where what you are saying but reality is most of the popular production boats are more than capable of handling Australian conditions with the proviso of keeping an eye on the weather.


I know that is generally the case, although the rudderstocks and the rigging are to my mind undersized. Perhaps I should have been more specific in saying that while most production boats could survive rough, oceanic conditions in the sense that they aren't going to sink, the same qualities that make them fast, light-air coastal cruisers are going to mean the possibility of material damage is higher, and the ride for the crew is going to be brutal, exhausting and potentially dangerous.

Would a Catalina 400, a Dufour 40 or god forbid a Hunter in an oceanic gale be sunk? Probably not. Would the crew end up exhausted and perhaps sporting broken limbs from the whipsawing motion? Potentially, yes.

A prudent sailor can overcome most of these issues, of course, but there are trade-offs in every aspect of boat design, and most production boats today, while strong enough to resist destruction, might pulverize their crews in a bad blow.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

T-37:
Apparently its in Portugal. OOps, edit: sorry for the late reply.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

valiente, you hit the nail on the head!!. putting someone down because of what brand of boat they have is sad. its like two grown men getting into a fist fight over ford vs. chevy!!!!!. i have a catalina 25, and in two years the wife and i will be moving up to a 30 to 35 ft. irwin, pearson,gulfstar,tartan etc......the best boat for the buck at the time. whatever we decide on, WE will be thrilled, and thats all that matters.....WE will be thrilled!!. i dont define a person i have or have not met based on their boat car, tv ...........you get the point....matt


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

I don't have cable TV and I don't own a car. It's my royal road to yacht ownership.

Consequently, I can be seen somewhat comically hauling my sails by bicycle trailer every spring and fall. The laughter stops when I sail away into the sunset...


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

mattdee said:


> valiente, you hit the nail on the head!!. putting someone down because of what brand of boat they have is sad. its like two grown men getting into a fist fight over ford vs. chevy!!!!!. i have a catalina 25, and in two years the wife and i will be moving up to a 30 to 35 ft. irwin, pearson,gulfstar,tartan etc......the best boat for the buck at the time. whatever we decide on, WE will be thrilled, and thats all that matters.....WE will be thrilled!!. i dont define a person i have or have not met based on their boat car, tv ...........you get the point....matt


Yah sure but before we start...Ford ?? Chevy ?? 

Val....we are pretty much saying the same thing. Have to agree totally with the rudder stock question. While I'd definitely prefer a fin/skeg arrangement over fin/spade the main cause of rudder stock failure does appear to be skimping on size/weight. Ironically, those boats most likely to suffer that failure tend to be lightweight speedsters that hit things at much higher speeds than a heavy full keeler. That higher speed putting their undersized stocks at even greater risk.


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## ceol (Apr 15, 2007)

tdw said:


> Ironically, those boats most likely to suffer that failure tend to be lightweight speedsters that hit things at much higher speeds than a heavy full keeler. That higher speed putting their undersized stocks at even greater risk.


It's that darn F=MA theory. 

G~


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## haffiman37 (Jun 4, 2004)

There is a quite good indicator to look at when it comes to 'newer' boats, the CE certificate. There not only allowed/certified sailing area is stated (A,B,C,..) but even more important max load capacity. 
As an example: My Jeanneau 37 is certified 2400Kg load capacity in category A versus Bavaria 37 1200KG!
Which one migt NOT suffer from structural dammage due to everload with 4 people, 400L water, 250L diesel, cruising and safety-equipement ++++ across the Atlantic and Pacific?
Most of the infos are there on newer boats, but too many simply seems to ignore the limmits stated!
Then comes another item. Most insurance companies refuses claims on riggs older than 10 years.
You will not try to use the toilet located in the bow section when the waves goes above 1 meter!
You will not feel happy running on deck reducing/reefing sails in squalls that hits 'out of the sky' with 30 knots+.(unless You have payed crew!!)
You will not be happy if Your sail-drive breaks down in mid Pacific(Water in oil/fishingline etc) and closes haul-out is in New Zealand.
You will not be happy if You get a leak, open the floor-boards only to discover that the innerliner covers all access!

Just a few points.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Haffiman...I am considerably more skeptical than you about CE certification as a guideline. We've had other threads here detailing how lousy some of the class A boats are for blue water...but the specs do at least give some guidance. 
More importantly...the rest of your post should be taken to heart as there is more to a cruising boat than just being able to not fall apart under ocean loads! To your very good points I would add:
1. Un-workable emergency tillers
2. Inadequate bilges
3. Spade Rudders (I know...my personal pecadillo! )
4. Hulls that pound your kidneys into salsa despite being strong and rigid and water tight. 
5. Topliners that don't let you get to leaks or wiring that need fixing. 
6. No place to put the battery power you need for your house bank requirements. 
7. Lots of open space by sacrificing storage space.


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## gavinandrebecca (Oct 28, 2007)

OK OK lets end it, i'll look at the corbin pilothouse ketch, forget the chartered yachts, no storage or tankage. I don't plan to go NZ, do plan on staying around 15degrees as that is where home is (cairns) Not that i got a home as i sold it to finance this. An i got to agrre with the skeg rudders too, they seem a little exposed to damge. And i want a cutter!
Wife likes the tayana 42, 37 too small (apparantly) I will hopefully put an end to the slagging off of all production boats forthwith.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

It never ends gavin........NEVER.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Gavin...the Tayana42 is a very nice boat and quite reasonably priced for what you get. They come in both Aft and CC models and interiors differ with each owner a bit.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

gavinandrebecca said:


> OK OK lets end it, i'll look at the corbin pilothouse ketch, forget the chartered yachts, no storage or tankage. I don't plan to go NZ, do plan on staying around 15degrees as that is where home is (cairns) Not that i got a home as i sold it to finance this. An i got to agrre with the skeg rudders too, they seem a little exposed to damge. And i want a cutter!
> Wife likes the tayana 42, 37 too small (apparantly) I will hopefully put an end to the slagging off of all production boats forthwith.


Gavin,

I am curious what you see as the problem with a skeg hung rudder? Or did you mean to say "spade rudder"?

Here is a skeg hung rudder:









[Pacific Seacraft Crealock 31]


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## haffiman37 (Jun 4, 2004)

Camaraderie:
I do not quite considder the CE certificates as 'the Bible', but it is one of many sources of information.
The same goes for a lot of info and opinions on this board.
It all comes down to the individual captain/owner to sort it all out, list his needs and no needs, and it will all end up in a lot of compromises.
Unfortunately at sea as on land 'Money rules' in most cases.

I went for fin keel and spade rudder as that in general gives the best down-wind performance and maneurverability. I went for a 'flat' bottom for the same reason. If I was to take the same trip but the other way, my choice might have been rather different. 
The bottom line is: There is nothing that fits 100% to every situation, needs and demands. No one is 100% right or wrong.
Yachties are in general rather strong individuals with strong opinions and most of them will defend their own chioces and points of wiev to the last sun sets over the horizon. It is in fact the basic most important philosofy for a yachter, never doubt, have faith in what You are doing or he will soon be lost out there!


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

H37...no argument there! (g)


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

> i'll look at the corbin pilothouse ketch,


Most of the Corbins were sold as hull and deck kits, and were owner-finished. Hence, there are wildly varying levels of quality out there as far as interior finishing goes. Just something to keep in mind - very strong hulls and decks though.


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## gavinandrebecca (Oct 28, 2007)

Err yer sorry bout the rudder type, skeg hung are well hung, spades seem accident prone


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Beneteau's are good ocean boats, But if i were you look at swans


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## calgon (Jun 20, 2006)

*sailaway*

Sailaway certainly seems to be an eqotistical know it all. He must own a Hinckley.


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## petmac (Feb 27, 2007)

Calgon,not all Hinckley owners are egotistical know it alls. I've never trashed anybody's boat either. Your comments put you in the same class as those that trash other boats here.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

*No*

NO BOATS ARE CRAP!

Boats are only crap if used beyond their design limits or design purpose. Taking a Beneteau, Catalina or Hunter across the pond, hitting a 45-60 knot storm, and then complaining that the boat is crap because cabinets moved, things broke and bulkheads moved is NOT fair to the boat! In that situation the OWNER made a crap decision.

Boats have limits and when used within those limits they will be fine. Even a Macgregor when used for it's intended purpose will not just fall apart on you..

If you buy the right boat for the right application they will be be all fine!

You don't buy a Prius to race in the Paris to Dakar/Dakar Rally and you'd be wise to not buy a Beneteau (most models), Catalina, or Hunter to sail the Southern Ocean, North Sea or do extended world voyaging with multiple "big water" crossings....

Crossing the pond once is a risk one must measure and plan for carefully if they plan to do it in a mass production boat but it most certainly CAN be done! I wouldn't do it but then again I've been thrown off a wave in a 50 foot Shannon and hit the trough like we'd been thrown off a 30 story building!! If you know what's out there, and the potential results, you'll chose the right tool for the job.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

I would differ a little bit from Halekai and say....some boats ARE crap but you can still have fun on them in protected waters! 

Calgon...nice start...attack a well regarded senior member and reveal you own predjudices.


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## petegingras (Mar 29, 2007)

halekai36


> NO BOATS ARE CRAP!
> 
> Boats are only crap if used beyond their design limits or design purpose. Taking a Beneteau, Catalina or Hunter across the pond, hitting a 45-60 knot storm, and then complaining that the boat is crap because cabinets moved, things broke and bulkheads moved is NOT fair to the boat! In that situation the OWNER made a crap decision.


now that's intellectual, balanced, and fair assesment of sailing.

here, here.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I once owned a MacGregor, so I know where Cam is coming from.....Some boats ARE crap, but can be fun in protected waters! I went from that to an O'Day, then to an Endeavour. She may be old, but built well enough to take on the Great Lakes. No, not the Pacific! We plan to retire next year and live out our "Golden years" on the Great Lakes in summer, Kentucky lake in winter. Endeavours were built in Tampa Bay, designed for the Gulf, not for ocean passages. Buy the right tool for the job!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

While I don't always agree with Sway... I don't think it makes much sense for you to be attacking him without any provocation.


calgon said:


> Sailaway certainly seems to be an eqotistical know it all. He must own a Hinckley.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

*Nice job Calgon..*



calgon said:


> Sailaway certainly seems to be an eqotistical know it all. He must own a Hinckley.


If your going to slam a well regarded member on these forums don't be a hypocrite and KNOW your audience!! I've yet to meet an egotistical Hinckley owner and I live in Maine where the MAJORITY of them are!

At the Maine boat builders show we took orders for canvas work on two Hinckley's. Neither owner even discussed their boat (at least 20-30 minutes) until we pressed the issue so we had a better understanding of configuration. They were much more interested in the quality of our work than bragging that they had a Hinckley. In my experience many Hinckley owners have OLD money and DO NOT brag. Sure there are a few but they are far and few between!

P.S. i say this with experience as I KNOW many Hinckley owners and they DO NOT fit your hypocritical stereotyping profile!!

For post number two try and avoid personal attacks you'll be better off!!


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

sailingdog said:


> While I don't always agree with Sway... I don't think it makes much sense for you to be attacking him without any provocation.


You never agree with anybody!!!  

Hey, that is the first time I have ever seen a red box in the user's information.
Way to go Calgon, you must be so proud.

Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1 
Rep Power: 0


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

calgon's been a member for 2 years, made one post and he's earned a red Rep square. Way to go!

Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1 
Rep Power: 0


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

Hmm - were we thinking alike tj ? (g)

Think it's from all the negative rep point hits he got from one post?


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

I think so, 
True Blue; aka "Future Hinckley Owner."


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

sailortjk1 said:


> I think so,
> True Blue; aka "Future Hinckley Owner."


Sorry TJ, without a silver spoon, don't qualify for a Hinckley.

The infamous red box club:
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/members/list/?order=asc&sort=reputation&pp=30


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## jimmytc (Aug 30, 2004)

My Beneteau 373 is chartered with Island Cruising in Sidney,Vancouver island. It is kept in pristine shape and maintenance by this company and anyone who ever buys this boat will basically get one that is as good as new if not better.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

LOL... Calgon's just managed to join CCP and a few select others... but managed to do it in fewer posts than anyone else has so far.

TB-

Nice link.  

JimmyTC-

But it'll still be a bendytoy....


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## hphoen (Apr 3, 2003)

If you have any interest in an Island Packet, the folks at Island Yachts in Red Hook, St Thomas, usually have a few boats coming out of charter for sale.


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## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

*I wasent even around*

for this one...LOL...Sway... you are truly very funny some times..



sailaway21 said:


> The only other consensus I've seen here is that Catalina's are glorified BB-Q stands, the Portugese invented the ultimate yacht around 1898 and the design is unchanged to this day, and no one has ever bought a MacGregor.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Am I missing something here ?

Sway is an egotistical know it all.

Oh I see, of course, he doesn't own a Hinkley.

Sorry for the interuption, do carry on.


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## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

*Ok I have*

Just finished reading this whole thread...Time out everybody...

I apparently own two crap boats... My past Mcgregor and my current Irwin...I like other people's trash...I have always dug through it ...collected it ...drug it home..and coveted it...you might say I'm trashy..

I like a man with a quick whit also..and Sailaway has one that I enjoy...Most of the time you can tell he enjoys making good use of it and I picture him chuckling ( sorry Chuckles) at himself as he types away at his key board...and most of his jabs are meant to be funny and taken lightly..I think of him as our very own Jay Leno...anyone who has been around for even a few weeks will get to know this about him..I find myself envious of some parts of each and everyone here at times rather it's a quick whit...years of Ocean experience...boat ownership..Racing experance...local of home base or whatever.

MainSail and I agree in that crap decisions are blamed on anything and everything but...

If any one wants to know my opinion of my boat all you have to do is check my past posts about it....If I have any thing going for me at all it's the fact that I am honest about expectations...by that I simply mean I dont expect champagne out of beer...

I really do enjoy the banter that goes back and forth here...this is what drew me here away from another forum...more of a true life gathering of bar buddies after winning or loosing a race around harbor...

If your boat gets hammered by someone...laugh it off..and buy a bigger one of the same brand...I would buy the Irwin 52 in my Marina in a heart beat...man you cannot believe the interior of that boat!...It is the boat that convinced my wive to try sailing...I will be eternally grateful to the owner for letting us aboard that boat...

Point being be happy with what you have for what it was intended for and be happy for the man using his as such...

Scott


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## sanctuarysam (Sep 16, 2006)

calgon said:


> Sailaway certainly seems to be an eqotistical know it all. He must own a Hinckley.


oh what the heck..i'm in too...been a while since i saw the dreaded red box of rep..
like we harley riders say.."ride what you like, and like what you ride.."
can't we all just get along?... 
funny thing..i've met nice hinckley and swan owners..and not so nice ones too..
your boat doesn't define who you are, anymore than what car you drive does..
as my hero bugs said "what a marroon"
i'm gonna go look at food porn..


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Still...Irwins are not crap boats. My I44 took me along the whole east coast, bahamas and the keys doing exactly what she was built to do. Crap boats fall apart doing the things they are sold to do.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Good boats can be turned _into _crap, or even scrap...look at Giu's neighbour with the "chopped" Hanse.


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## Alden68 (Mar 21, 2007)

camaraderie said:


> Crap boats fall apart doing the things they are sold to do.


Sometimes my boat falls apart on the jack stands....does that mean.....oh no........


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## artbyjody (Jan 4, 2008)

Stillraining said:


> Just finished reading this whole thread...Time out everybody...
> 
> I apparently own two crap boats... My past Mcgregor and....
> 
> If your boat gets hammered by someone...laugh it off..and buy a bigger one of the same brand...


Hmmm wondering why you bought the Irwin and not a bigger McGregor <ducking>


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## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

Stillraining said:


> ...by that I simply mean I dont expect champagne out of beer...
> 
> Scott


Been reading with interest.

And... Well...while I like Sailaway as much as the next guy... and appreciated those that echoed my thoughts here on Sailnet with regard to that bizarre post .... I'm confused as to why such an inflamitory comment as the one above goes unchallenged....!

champagne out of beer?

No sir. Beer out of Champagne.... is what you mean.

 
 



...To the point...

What helped me the most when purchasing a boat.... was answering the questions that other sailnet members, friends, brokers etc. had of me. I did end up with a boat that was chartered because it certainly was the right boat for me.

Sounds like you have most of those questions answered. (and may not even be reading this thread anymore.. heh)

Go.. See.. Boats... You're 90% sure which brands are on your list. That's pretty good. Put a broker to work...!

craig


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## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

*Lol*

   you must not be mad at me any more...



artbyjody said:


> Hmmm wondering why you bought the Irwin and not a bigger McGregor <ducking>


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## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

*Cam*

That was supposed to be a joke...see I knew I should have went to collage...cant even communicate that right... OK that dose it... Im now all for hogtieing Livinondreams and enrolling him in school...



camaraderie said:


> Still...Irwins are not crap boats. My I44 took me along the whole east coast, bahamas and the keys doing exactly what she was built to do. Crap boats fall apart doing the things they are sold to do.


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## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

*Huh?*

OK ...remember now I ain't no collage grade...Are you joking with me...? 

Im with ya... I cant stand Champagne either but I think I said it right..

My whole post was supposed be funny ...I guess I better leave that to better qualified posters ...Im having to explain WAY to much... 

OH Bother....OK Ill be gone for a bit...I have to go stick my head in a bucket of sand now....



craigtoo said:


> Been reading with interest.
> 
> And... Well...while I like Sailaway as much as the next guy... and appreciated those that echoed my thoughts here on Sailnet with regard to that bizarre post .... I'm confused as to why such an inflamitory comment as the one above goes unchallenged....!
> 
> ...


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Cause the next size up in MacGregors is a Mac 65....(assuming he had a Mac 26) and that's a pretty big step up.



artbyjody said:


> Hmmm wondering why you bought the Irwin and not a bigger McGregor <ducking>


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*How 'Bout Dem Swedes?*

Yeah, I own a Catalina, but when I grow up, I'm getting an H-R, Malo or Najad and do some serious cruising. Those Swedish boys know how to build a boat!


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## gtod25 (Aug 5, 2000)

*Sorry, I could not resist!!*



Zanshin said:


> The boat was the largest I felt comfortable with single-handing; but there were some great deals to be had on the Bendytoe 473's and also the really big 50/52/54s coming out of charter. But who in their right mind wants 5 midget-sized heads?


Snow White?????


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## thesnort (Jun 2, 2007)

This wins my favorite thread title award. No monetary compensation, just heartfelt gratitude for something that makes me smile each time I look at it.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Catalinas a barbecue stand? I take offence to that. I have a Catalina 30 and it a great COASTAL cruiser. I would never plan to do anything more than that.

As far as crap yachts a good survey will sort out a lot of issues. Make sure you use a reputal surveyor who is highly reccomended!

Other yachts to consider are Island Packet, Liberty, Cabo Rico, Pacific Seacraft, Caliber, and numerous others.


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## MARC2012 (Mar 17, 2008)

*crap boats*

There are certain boats(already mentioned) that are not necessarly crap but should stay in protected waters.There are some not yet mentioned that need to stay at the dock.I have always liked catalins thought of buying couple but did not.Think make good coastal boats & I am not intrested in long voyages.Not as pretty to me as others.Ps have a gulfstar use as coastal.marc


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## saildork (Feb 20, 2007)

*crappy boats*

Gavin and Rebecca
I would recommend you visit pearsonvanguarddotcom. On this site you'll find different ways to evaluate boats and perhaps narrow your search. They have one section which allows you to compare one of the million boats ever made to every other boat ever made. It shows you all the parameters that people normally look at (eg. sail area, disp, LWL, LOA, capsize ratio, etc.). Another section asks you to enter a number of sailing parameters, hit 'enter' and the boats that fit within your range will be displayed.
Ok, time for my rant. Catalinas are exceptionally well built...for their intended purpose. Mine is a 1983 C22 which I love, but I would never go anywhere offshore in it. The C22 has a stouter rig than other boats its size, and this allows me to sail in conditions that would put other small boats in danger of a dismasting. Mine has had only one leak; a window that needed rebedding. I know of a C27 that has made a circumnavigation and some of their larger boats have sailed in the high lattitudes. And Catalinas still look like sailboats, unlike some of their competitors.

Pat Lindsay
'Stargazer'
Huntsville, AL


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