# Resale value: production vs semi-production



## WindyT (Dec 5, 2016)

I am well aware that this is a question that is impossible to answer but I'm considering purchasing a live aboard knowing that I may have to turn around and sell the boat in 2 years time due to geography / work. Looking in the 50k range, I could look at 20 year old Hunters, Catalinas, etc or look at 30 year old Tartans and the like. I was wondering if anyone has any thoughts or anecdotes as to which boats are easier to sell. It seems to me like Tartans may have a smaller market but that's the view of an outsider looking in.

Thanks!


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

I think you'll have better odds on a quick resale with the '20 yr old Hunter or Catalina' than a 30 year old anything. And of those two Catalina has the better rep, esp for continued support for older models.

But your thread title is a bit misleading.. Tartan would be considered a production boat too.. and I'm not too sure just what a 'semi-production' boat would be - one that's not quite finished?? 

If you meant semi-custom, then it's really a bit of a dodgy thing. An unfamiliar brand could be a hard sell, often even if the boat is better built than the mainstream ones, unless you have a very knowledgeable buyer; and a high end semi custom would probably be out of your budget unless its 30+ years old.

Also you can't always go by the 'brand'. A friend was looking at a vintage Swan, early 70s. It really was trashed, chainplates pulling out of the deck, hull dimpled from the stress, gelcoat breaking down. Don't know the full history, but as ever, it's an 'eyes wide open' sort of thing.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

the world is full of $50k boats for sale, there's probably a reason and it's not about the brand


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

In a younger range, I would say that higher end (semi-custom) brands will hold their value better. Once you get to 20-30 years out, I'm not sure depreciation will differ much. You will likely pay more for the semi-custom than the production, but both should remain relatively near those value for the near term.

If I was in your position, I would think more about liquidity than depreciation. You want a boat with broad appeal that is desirable. More likely in the production category, in my opinion. While the quality may be debatable vs the semi-custom, there is frequently more value, more room, more systems, etc, for the dollar. That sells. I think a brand that is still around (and expected to be for some time) to supply support is an advantage too. I also think you want to keep the LOA at or below 40ft to have the broadest demand. 

You also want to have zero excuses. No wet hulls that "aren't so bad" or damage history, even if repaired well. These just limit your buying audience, if you have to sell.

In the end, just understand that a quick sale could require taking a 25% discount to what you believe your boat is worth. There is no good way around a pressured seller and a buyer than has many options.


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

I'd add to mini's thought process that in your particular location, there maybe a brand that is particularly popular. Maybe there's a Catalina dealer who sells new and used, or maybe lots of Tartans...you know your area. What's going on in Ohio? To sell quickly, you want something that doesn't generate a lot of questions, particularly to new buyers. It's popular, it's survey's clean, nothing "weird" was done to it by previous owners, it's old enough to be fully depreciated but young enough not to be a problem boat.

If you can find a dealer or broker who is competent, you can discuss your plans up front. The broker would understand if they do a good job they are likely to get 2 commissions in short order.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

A former student of mine bought an older Catalina 30 as his first boat. I asked him what brought him to a Catalina 30 over some of the other boats that were available in that size range. His rationale is that he felt that a Catalina 30 would not loose much resale and that if he decided that he wanted to sell, he could do so quickly and easily. I agreed and shared my observation is that because the Catalina 30 is so popular and common, that they could almost be traded as a commodity.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

I would talk to local brokers or look at the boat sales records for a given area to see which brands are in demand. Older Catalinas and Hunters sell dirt cheap these days. I would just focus on getting the boat I really want and paying as little as possible for it, understanding that selling it later and breaking even might be hard. Boats are not good investments money wise.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

The exception are cult boats. Things like west sails, Bristol Channel cutters, Annies, Sarahs, swan 46s, HR 43s,Concordias, early Amels, valiants , B40s and the like. All were production boats and seem to have depreciated to a point then leveled off as long they're well maintained. Still, it's a hole in the water you pour money into.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

2 year boat ownership is like a short term stock market trade.


Only, only, only go for liquidity. 

What brands sell most in that bracket.


Mark


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

I was thinking the same thing. 2 years? don't forget to tell the broker that he does not have to remove the for sale sign. You may want to consider buying what you want and having it moved to you new location. might be cheaper in the long run


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Buying a boat with a good hull and a bad engine is one way to limit your future financial exposure and greatly reduce upfront cost.
You are just living on the boat and not moving it...so what else does it need...some elec wiring...a head that works....hatches that don't leak too badly...maybe a few cushions...throw in some decent docklines...etc.

It simply floats with shore power and amenities conveniently nearby.

If you buy it cheap, you can sell it for the same. Cheap is they key...a large market for people to take your place.


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## WindyT (Dec 5, 2016)

Hey all,

Thanks for offering lots of insight (and essentially helping confirm my suspicions)! As you can tell, this is a new world for me. I recognize that a 2 year turnaround isn't the greatest plan, but hey, I'm moving to Charleston for 2 years where rent is out of control and even taking a moderate hit on the resale of a boat will put me in a similar situation financially given the rent. Ideally, I'll be able to keep it longer than 2 years but have to be prepared to move back inland when work runs its course. Sounds like a local broker is a good start!


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Keep in mind that it can take most or all of 2 years to sell a boat unless you want to deeply discount it - ironically, sailboats are about as far from a _liquid_ asset as you can have these days.


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## Scotty C-M (Aug 14, 2013)

Make sure that you can live abroad in the area that you are moving to. Some areas have live aboard slips available, but others they are hard to find. I agree with the idea of buying cheap. Buy cheap, sell cheap.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

WindyT said:


> Hey all,
> 
> Thanks for offering lots of insight (and essentially helping confirm my suspicions)! As you can tell, this is a new world for me. I recognize that a 2 year turnaround isn't the greatest plan, but hey, I'm moving to Charleston for 2 years where rent is out of control and even taking a moderate hit on the resale of a boat will put me in a similar situation financially given the rent. Ideally, I'll be able to keep it longer than 2 years but have to be prepared to move back inland when work runs its course. Sounds like a local broker is a good start!


You need to find an affordable, close, marina first... one that allows liveaboards.
It may not be easy. 
And buying a junk boat will be impossible to sell

Further, your whole motivation is crazy:
*you know nothing about boats
*you want to buy something you no nothing about and not use it for its designed purpose
*you know nothing about the area
*you know nothing about putting the boat somewhere
* you expect to be able to keep a very expensive object in a toxic environment - salt water - and it be cheaper than a simple apartment on land.
* as you don't know how to maintain a boat and you're not using it as a boat it will be a pile of **** in 2 years
*you don't know how difficult it is to sell the thing you know nothing about.

Sorry, mate but you're crackers. You will lose bulk money and rue the day you thought up this idea.

*said with honest good intention*

Mark


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## Waterrat (Sep 8, 2007)

Mark is 100% correct but if eyes are wide open and you will enjoy learning about sailing and maintaining a sailboat it is possible. Please do keep us posted. There are many folks here including Mark that will help with your steep learning curve.


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## cb32863 (Oct 5, 2009)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> You need to find an affordable, close, marina first... one that allows liveaboards.
> It may not be easy.
> And buying a junk boat will be impossible to sell
> 
> ...


There ya go making sense again......


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

Hey Mark, man keep this up and all the anchorages will be empty 

Wait, maybe that isn't such a bad idea!


To the OP, everyone here hopes you'll join the sailing community and buy a boat, but all of us kinda learned the hard way it's not a good financial decision. 

But it's a great decision for the soul!


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## Waterrat (Sep 8, 2007)

capecodda said:


> Hey Mark, man keep this up and all the anchorages will be empty
> 
> Wait, maybe that isn't such a bad idea!
> 
> ...


I thought most of us knew it was a bad financial decision we just didn't know it was going to be as bad as it was/is.

"But it's a great decision for the soul!"

If we could only monetize soul maintenance and revitalization I would be one of the best investors ever.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

There is a nice marina in Folly Beach, 25 minutes from downtown Charleston that allows live aboard: http://www.sunsetcaymarina.org/
Absolutely beautiful place to live and sail. Very quiet.


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

Sailboats are easy to buy and hard to sell. It's hard to believe this would make sense financially. And summer on a sailboat docked in Charleston with no A/C? No thanks.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I had no idea where the newbie accusation came from, as it wasn't in this OP. I now realize the OP started a separate thread and I didn't relate the two. 

Nevertheless, they said they had sailed from childhood through college, so I'm not sure they are totally unaware of what they're contemplating. May be the first purchase of their own, but we all started somewhere. The OP also identifies as an ER doc, so I give them some credit for being able to take on a challenge.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> The OP also identifies as an ER doc, so I give them some credit


I have 2 ex's who are doctors and I'd never give them credit. And a sister who's a Dr and I'd give her $1 after signing a 100 page contract.

:kiss

Yes, its hard to get all the nuances out of one or 2 posts. Sorry if I made rash judgements.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

I don't really feel it is rash. I agree that getting a $50k boat and basing your decision on "good" resale after 2 years is crazy. To me it would make more sense to ask which $50k boats you could buy and get $25k of good enjoyable use out of and still be able to sell it for $25k in two years (and I don't know the answer). Boats as about whether the money is worth it to the owner, which isn't a bottom line money thing.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

Btw- just wait till you try to do the same thing for a car as this op question 😳


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## ianjoub (Aug 3, 2014)

Don0190 said:


> Btw- just wait till you try to do the same thing for a car as this op question 😳


I don't think I have ever sold a car for less than I bought it for, and I have owned hundreds. He has a very plausible idea. With a little research and patience, he should be fine.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

ianjoub said:


> I don't think I have ever sold a car for less than I bought it for, and I have owned hundreds. He has a very plausible idea. With a little research and patience, he should be fine.


100s of cars :eek


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## ianjoub (Aug 3, 2014)

Don0190 said:


> 100s of cars :eek


Yes, and even more motorcycles than that. Buy them, enjoy them for a week(s), sell them and make a buck.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

ianjoub said:


> I don't think I have ever sold a car for less than I bought it for, and I have owned hundreds. He has a very plausible idea. With a little research and patience, he should be fine.


I see you are maintaining the high standard of advice you are known for here.


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## amwbox (Aug 22, 2015)

I do know one guy who's turned a profit on a few boats. He even keeps a spare slip for whatever floating curiosity he comes across, wrenches and brushes on for a while, and then sells. Though, to be fair, they are generally 22-27 footers from the 60's or 70's in rough shape that he's bought for a few hundred off craigslist, cleaned/painted/varnished/polished and the re-sold for under $3,000. Within that space its certainly doable to not take big losses on boats. But then again, if you get the boat basically for free, what have you got to lose?

A $50,000 boat is going to create a loss in 2 years no matter what you do...well, unless you do zero maintenance and or lucked out and got it at some ridiculously low price.


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## Waterrat (Sep 8, 2007)

I would think the Catalina 30 as suggested above would be a good choice to not lose too much. I would not drop 50K if I was selling in two years. Lots of great boats in the 30-35 foot range for 15-20K suitable for purpose. If you spent 15-20K dropped another 5-10 in maintenance and upgrade and sold quickly for 10 to 20K. Plus 10K for 2 years of slip and hookup along with another 5k-10K for the inevitable other crap. That works out to something a little over a 1-2K a month for two years with a water view. That is probably comparable to rent. Depending on the real estate market you could buy and sell a house with more of a break even or profit for the same outlay but then your not on the water and you can't sail it. This sounds like fun to me. In a couple of years you will forget the money lost, while the memory will last until dementia sets in.


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## amwbox (Aug 22, 2015)

Wow. I pay $2,000/year for moorage, and break nowhere near enough stuff to wind up dropping 10 grand on maintenance and repairs in two years. What are you doing to your poor boat, man?


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## Waterrat (Sep 8, 2007)

amwbox said:


> Wow. I pay $2,000/year for moorage, and break nowhere near enough stuff to wind up dropping 10 grand on maintenance and repairs in two years. What are you doing to your poor boat, man?


I don't spend that kind of cash either. I based the slip cost on the 10 per foot per month for marina linked in this thread. Not a mooring but a slip. Mooring would be one way to reduce cost for sure but also reducing convenience and comfort depending on neighbors. The 5-10 K is because they are buying and living on a 30 year old sailboat as a primary residence spread over 2 years. There are also going to be additional cost of survey, broker, storage until it sells, insurance etc etc. They were very rough numbers leaning towards more expensive then less. Given original budget of 50 K and reasonable salary this seems legit. Could be done for less and much more. There would probably be some savings in not purchasing random stuff that would fit in apartment but not fit in a sailboat. He could do 0 maintenance and upgrades but I have not seen many sailboats in the 15-20K range vintage 30 years that don't need a new or updated something when first purchased. Everyone's mileage will vary but Murphy has funny ways to sneak into one's wallet.


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## amwbox (Aug 22, 2015)

I get you.


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

Even if you buy a 50K boat and sell it in two years for 50K you will likely take a 5K hit in broker fees. IF something big does 'break' and it costs you 10K to repair... it can happen, boat ownership is a lifestyle, or love of the boating life.

Let's say you get lucky and buy a boat for 50K, live on it for two years. list if for 50K and sell it at a 10% discount. 45K - 4.5K for the broker, you are out 10K. That is not unreasonable and most would say you did OK. If your slip costs .5K/ month you will pay 12K for two years. You are in it for about 22K over two years NOT including any costs for maintenance. You will be living in a very small space (200 sq ft?) with small windows and possibly the nicest back porch money can buy. Boats that don't leave the slip seem to suffer the most in maintenance costs. Boats that leave the slip will eventually break something, it's just a fact of life.

If you rent an apartment, you will likely have zero maintenance costs out of pocket. I think you could find a 200 sq ft apartment for 1K a month with no risk of getting hit with a big bill like a new sail or major engine work.

We don't say owning a sailboat is like standing in a cold shower tearing up $100 bills just because it sounds funny. 

All that being said, if what you want is to live on a boat DO IT. If you think you are going to save money, don't waste your time. At the very best you might get extremely lucky and break even vs an apartment, but ahhhh the view 

Yes, there is that outside chance that you will find the deal of a lifetime and even make a buck or two on the eventual sale price. That's why I buy the occasional scratch off ticket, even though I work in gaming and understand that I just won't win. I am, and will always remain, a dreamer!


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

You can definitely save money buying a sail boat short term to live on, I am just not sure if you can do it with a $50000 boat. 

I was in an expensive city, Toronto, paying $1600/ month to rent a 1 bedroom apartment. I bought a good decent older sailboat for $7500. The boat was quite adequate for coastal sailing. Moorage was $400/month including electricity and wifi, nice marina, not a dump. After the first year or so, I sold the boat for $5k. I had saved over $13000 on rent in one year. 

I took that $13k in savings and put it toward a nicer bigger boat and continued to live on it. Then I pursued a work opportunity in another city, so I sailed to the new city, no moving trucks, no carrying couches down stairs, I just cast off the lines and sailed there.

I continued to live aboard in city number two. Then another, better work opportunity came up. Again, no moving truck, no couches, I sailed to the new city. City number 3 wasn't a live aboard friendly city, but I had saved so much money on rent, not only had I paid off the small loan I took out on boat number two, I had also saved enough for a down payment on a house.

Now, I still have boat number two, but now she's a pleasure craft we spend our vacations on sailing around to cool places.

So it is possible to save money, but the execution needs to be done right. Unfortunately, I think there is a lot of potential to take a real soaking on a $50k boat. Even if you take a bit of a soaking on the boat, living aboard is fun. It's an adventure, there are great communities and how many of your freinds are driving around in $50000 trucks that they will sell for half as much in a few years?


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

It costs more time and money to keep a 50k boat....a 50k boat.
It costs less money to keep a 10k boat a 10k boat...assuming no market change.
If you can find a 10k boat that's already a dedicated 'residence/liveaboard', and its size fits OK, then you have to do very little to move aboard and take up your new living arrangement. The wiring, lighting, etc will be in place for residence.
Maybe add a rope light...or change grill to propane from charcoal....but not having to spend brain power on learning new things that would eat up your time. 

The liveaboard people really don't look at boat types and models as symbols of status. No worries in that regard, so no need for a 'fine' boat. 

I think you'll be very surprised to learn how 'real' the people are.
You'll want a slip and not be moored out - huge convenience difference.
Find a marina that seems safe and is well run.
You will leave your work world and return home to a very different and easy world each day. 
You're interested in this, obviously.
It's not difficult to do.
The same-ol...or new life experience?


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## WindyT (Dec 5, 2016)

Mark - thanks for your concern mate. And I'm not crackers. I'm Tyler.
I not thick enough to think that this is the best idea or best investment, but many things worthwhile often aren't. And In general, I like to learn by doing! (is there any other way? that's how we learned how to sail our 16' boston whaler on the lake where i grew up) They do call it the 'practice' of medicine after all. 

So now that you haven't talked me out of it my plan is (and has been) to:
1) find a slip
2) find a boat
3) suffer the financial consequences. 

The whole point of this thread was just to ask the pro's what, if any, tips they had.


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## amwbox (Aug 22, 2015)

WindyT said:


> The whole point of this thread was just to ask the pro's what, if any, tips they had.


Become a minimalist. Get comfortable being uncomfortable. Take pride in maintaining a boat in sharp and well stowed shape. Enjoy the waterfront view.

And don't use your rig as a clothes line. And don't put a window AC unit in your companionway. And don't pile up your **** on the dock. Its antics like that that give liveaboards a bad name.


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## Jammer Six (Apr 2, 2015)

Buying a boat as a private party is never a logical decision, it's a purely emotional decision.

Re-sale value shouldn't be considered.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Your advice appears to be almost as valuable as Ianjoub's.


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## ianjoub (Aug 3, 2014)

SloopJonB said:


> I see you are maintaining the high standard of advice you are known for here.





SloopJonB said:


> Your advice appears to be almost as valuable as Ianjoub's.


If only we could be as useful as you. :batter


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

WindyT said:


> Mark - thanks for your concern mate. And I'm not crackers. I'm Tyler.
> I not thick enough to think that this is the best idea or best investment, but many things worthwhile often aren't. And In general, I like to learn by doing! (is there any other way? that's how we learned how to sail our 16' boston whaler on the lake where i grew up) They do call it the 'practice' of medicine after all.
> 
> So now that you haven't talked me out of it my plan is (and has been) to:
> ...


OK, so now a tip or two. Look for things in the boat that will give it a better resale value, as well as make it a nicer live aboard.

1. Walk through transoms are a big selling point, as is private aft cabin vs. quarter berth. The resale value bottom is falling out of coastal cruisers with closed transoms. No one wants to hear that, but it's (mostly) true

2. Given the option of roller furling main vs. traditional, the roller furling will probably sell faster. This is not to start a debate about them, it just seems the nearly all new boats come with them and people are aware of this. We all remember when the roller fulling head sail was an option, now it's standard on just about everything.

3. Refrigeration. Some 50K boats won't have it. Most will, but it's a big deal if you are living on it or selling it.

4. Heat/AC. Big selling point and a nice option if you are going to be on a dock with shore power.

So for 50K, if you lean towards agreement with my opinions on this matter (and they are just opinions) you will be left with few options. 34 - 36 ft Hunter, Beneteau, or Catalina. Most will be closer to 60K asking price, but you will likely find a boat you can pick up for 50K.

*On the other hand, the idea of going older, cheaper and minimalist is not a bad idea either. You would be surprised what you can pick for less than 10K on craigslist.


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## jorgenl (Aug 14, 2006)

Buy this for $50K and be done with it:

1989 Morgan Catalina Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

RobGallagher said:


> *On the other hand, the idea of going older, cheaper and minimalist is not a bad idea either. You would be surprised what you can pick for less than 10K on craigslist.


Yep, and some of those cheap old minimalist boats aren't that minimalist.

Take my "cult" (I liked that description) boat. 2 staterooms, workshop with bench vice, fridge AND large deep freeze, seafreeze, comnav autopilot, vhf with AIS receiver, on demand hot water heater, comnav autopilot, heavy duty offshore sails, roller furling genoa, storm jib, storm try sail, canvas enclosure, BBQ, convection microwave, 4 bilge pumps, 4 anchors with rode, electric windlas, fixed automatic for fighting system, sailing and rowing dinghy with davits, I could go on for a while, but she's as well equipped for long distance coastal sailing and live aboard as many newer production boats at a fraction of the cost.

I think as long as you don't over pay up front, it shouldn't matter too much what you get, you should be able to sell it for close to what you got it for.

Here is an interesting counter point regarding the liquidity of production boats. If I want to buy a common production boat, how many do I have to chose from? I can afford to play hard ball, I can afford to walk away from any boat, if there are lots to chose from, I'm only going to buy the best priced one on the market.

If somebody wanted a "cult" boat, which have very dedicated followings, there are much fewer to chose from. I know mine is the only Fantasia on the entire great lakes, so I don't doubt if I put her up for sale, I could find a buyer willing to pay more than I paid for it, which was a whole lot less than $50k.

Just buy whatever kind of boat you like, if that's a production Catalina, awesome, they are nice boats, if it's a heavy old West sail 32, that's cool too, you shouldn't have any trouble finding a buyer for one that's been even moderately well maintained.


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