# Legality of Boat



## BigK (Jun 14, 2021)

I am new to sailing and recently acquired a fairly old x boat that my daughter has started racing this year. I've had a couple of more experienced folks take a look at it and made whatever modifications that have been suggested. Both of people that have looked at it have said its perfectly sailable. 

The vessel is noticably older than all of the others on race day. My daughter loves to sail but is not competative at this point, she just loves being in the race. 

I am getting some pushback from a few members of our local club about the "legality" of the vessel without mentioning any specifics. My question to the "nuetral" members of this forum is this. Is the age of the vessel a "thing" when it comes to xboat rules?

Being new to the sport I am not sure if there is a genuine concern or if its just a pretext for trying to keep up the local fleet's appearance.

Any insight from the forum would be appreciated.


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## BarryL (Aug 21, 2003)

Hello,

We (the sailnet folks) need a lot more information on the type of racing you are doing to be able to make any helpful comments. Is she racing one design, phrf, orc, or something else?

In one design racing the rules are very strict about what is allowed on the boat and what you can do to the boat. If you are racing PHRF you need a handicap. As long as the boat is properly rated there should not be an issue. To the best of my knowledge there is no age limit for a boat. For example, in my club, there are few boats from the early 70's racing and some boats that are practically new. It's PHRF racing and as long as the club scorer has rated your boat, and you haven't made any extra modifications like deeper keep, longer boom, bigger sails, then you are all set.

Good luck,
Barry


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

I am not a racer... but the use of the term "legal" as it relates to must means that the organizers/sponsors of the race have various requirements for the boats that compete. Races about skill will want the boats the same... or handicapped to equalize them. To handicap a boat it has to be measured and the measurements will theoretically determine whether the boat is slower or faster than another boat. A slower boat CAN win a race because of their handicap.

Go ask a lawyer... ;-)


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Heres a link to the Xboat Class page. I would guess many of your questions can be answered on this site.






X Boat Class


X Boat




xboat.org


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

I can't imagine the age of the boat would disqualify it as a one design racer. More likely it has to do with modifications that previous owners have done. In some one design classes even changing to a different mainsheet system or vang is not allowed. It could also be something as simple as sail measurement or even choice of sail cloth. (Some classes don't allow high tech sailcloths).

It seems strange that people would tell you the boat is not class legal without specifying what it is they think is in violation of class rules. I would ask them to be more specific.

Sent from my SM-G981W using Tapatalk


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## BigK (Jun 14, 2021)

BarryL said:


> Hello,
> 
> We (the sailnet folks) need a lot more information on the type of racing you are doing to be able to make any helpful comments. Is she racing one design, phrf, orc, or something else?
> 
> ...


Thanks for the response Larry. Being new to sailing I'm not sure I have all them information to pass on to the Sailnet people. My understanding is that any "x boat" can race but the concerns only seem to get voiced when the other clubs are brought up. Again "legality" of the boat without any mention of specific concerns makes me think "legality" is a proxy for something else.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

BigK, you really need to provide more information if you reasonably expect to get some helpful advice. Given no information what so ever, I can only make some generalizations. First, is your daughter racing in a one design class? If so they will have specific rules on what equipment and modifications are allowed. Most likely they will ask you to join the class association and get your boat “measured” to “prove” compliance (I used to be a national measurer – big whoop, my bungee was a white ruler on a blue field). If you are handicap racing (PHRF for example), they may want you to get a YRA certificate. You may have a number you got off the internet but that is not the same as paying annual dues to the YRA. Individual clubs may have their own rules and you need to ask them – I’m not a mind reader, just a (recently) retired racer. Old vs. new has no intrinsic difference when it comes to measurement rules. That said, boats may get heavier (or lighter) over a long (multiyear) production run. But again, you need to get a copy of your class or YRA rules to see if your boat is in compliance.


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## contrarian (Sep 14, 2011)

*X Boat

Description*
*Description*
The X Boat, also called the Cub, is an American sailing dinghy that was designed by John O. Johnson as a one-design racer and first built in 1932.

That adds a lot of possibilities for an " older boat " Seems to me that the older the boat is the _MORE _ _LEGAL_ it is. I suppose the class could agree to changes and over the years, especially after 89 years I suspect there has been quite a few significant changes but I don't see how that should disqualify a participant in an older boat unless of course this is a wanna be high brow snot club holding the event. In which case this could turn out to be a Bonum Malo Est experience for the OP's daughter. I could see this inspiring her to become an Olympic Contender.


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## PhilCarlson (Dec 14, 2013)

I don't know much about racing rules but it seems they are irrelevant to the situation. You said your daughter is not competitive and just loves to be out with the other boats racing. Good for her! Isn't that the whole point? I suspect the pushback comes from a club snob who feels threatened by a girl racing a boat that didn't' cost what they paid. 

She's out there enjoying herself and learning the sport. That's really all that matters.


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## SV Siren (Mar 8, 2013)

I would have a chat with the "racing committee" in an effort to find out what might be the cause of the disgruntlement. It's rather hard to take a guess..


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

PhilCarlson said:


> I don't know much about racing rules but it seems they are irrelevant to the situation. You said your daughter is not competitive and just loves to be out with the other boats racing. Good for her! Isn't that the whole point? I suspect the pushback comes from a club snob who feels threatened by a girl racing a boat that didn't' cost what they paid.
> 
> She's out there enjoying herself and learning the sport. That's really all that matters.


Maybe the snotty club members don't want an incompetant newb interferring with their moves on the waer?

So you're out sailing and come across a race. What do you do? Probably sailing around them... or through them if you want to piss them off. But what if you decided to "join the race"? That seems to be "rude"... sort of like crashing a party. But what is the law about such things? Is it courtesy or what?


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

SanderO said:


> So you're out sailing and come across a race. What do you do? Probably sailing around them... or through them if you want to piss them off. But what if you decided to "join the race"? That seems to be "rude"... sort of like crashing a party. But what is the law about such things? Is it courtesy or what?


Sailboat races generally have no legal standing what so ever. To non racers, standard ColRegs apply.

If they set up their course in a channel or busy harbour, provided the ColRegs don't prevent me from doing so, I am going through if it's on the rhumb line to my destination.


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## PhilCarlson (Dec 14, 2013)

SanderO said:


> Maybe the snotty club members don't want an incompetant newb interferring with their moves on the waer?
> 
> So you're out sailing and come across a race. What do you do? Probably sailing around them... or through them if you want to piss them off. But what if you decided to "join the race"? That seems to be "rude"... sort of like crashing a party. But what is the law about such things? Is it courtesy or what?


It seems pretty clear that the OP is referring to their daughters participating in an organized event. Everyone was a newb at some point, anyone who has a problem with that takes themselves way to seriously. Also, I always get a chuckle when someone misspells the word incompetent.


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## marcjsmith (Jan 26, 2021)

Froma OD POV you need to look at the class rules and then look over the boat and see if you can find discrepancies between your boat and what the rules allow. Some OD classes only allow you to use parts/fitting supplied by the manufacturer, but some allow you some flexibilty with parts/upgrades

44 pages of reading enjoyment X Boat Class Rules / Scantlings: Read Them Here | SailZing

As others have mentioned ask some of the locals for help figuring out if your boat is class legal in its current configuration. Maybe rigging up your boat next to another members boat and compare side by side. Many folks are accomdating and will help, but you'll find a-holes too...

the local club may be ok with you racing a non class legal boat, but at a larger or sanctioned event, its not that you won't be welcomed but you could get protested or barred from racing until the boat is made class legal.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

SanderO said:


> Maybe the snotty club members don't want an incompetant newb interferring with their moves on the waer?


Xboat are 16 ft trainers, usually sailed by kids, so hopefully not...

But then again, it's not like dinghy sailing is immune to elitist behaviour.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

So here is the deal as I see it, 

Scanning the class rules, there is an extremely tight tolerance for the hull shape, sails and rig in the class association rules that define what is a 'Class Legal Boat". As in many classes, earlier boats tended to be built to looser tolerances and as in many classes, certain manufacturers are known to be outside of the permitted tolerances, sometimes by accident and sometimes on purpose, My guess is that what is being said is that for reasons known to the people making the comments, this is not a Class Legal Boat. Normally non-class legal boats are permitted to complete at a club level if the deviations do not inherently increase performance. They would not be permitted to compete in a regional or national event where the boats are required to be certified as fully compliant.


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## BigK (Jun 14, 2021)

Thanks to all lending their knowledge. The suggestions on this forum far exceed the specificity we are getting from our local club. It feels like elitest behavior by the locals to me. 

My fear is that the specificity is witheld until right before a regatta is held on our home lake. Perhaps I am over reacting.


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## BigK (Jun 14, 2021)

Jeff_H said:


> So here is the deal as I see it,
> 
> Scanning the class rules, there is an extremely tight tolerance for the hull shape, sails and rig in the class association rules that define what is a 'Class Legal Boat". As in many classes, earlier boats tended to be built to looser tolerances and as in many classes, certain manufacturers are known to be outside of the permitted tolerances, sometimes by accident and sometimes on purpose, My guess is that what is being said is that for reasons known to the people making the comments, this is not a Class Legal Boat. Normally non-class legal boats are permitted to complete at a club level if the deviations do not inherently increase performance. They would not be permitted to compete in a regional or national event where the boats are required to be certified as fully compliant.


Is a Johnson x boat circa 1970-1980 known to have a hull outside permitted tolerances?


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

First of all Big K, there is absolutely nothing that you have written above that suggests that what is happening is 'elitist'. In fact, reading what you have written, it sounds like the opposite of 'elitist' behavior., They are allowing your daughter to compete even though they believe that the boat is not fully conforming with the rules. Those members of the local club are giving you the courtesy of giving you a heads-up that the boat my not be fully class conforming so that you don't pay an entry fee and tow it to some far off regatta, only to have it not being permitted to race. On that basis, I would respectfully suggest that you may be over-reacting.

You need to understand that one-design class association rules can be very strictly enforced, that the rules change over time, and that due to those changes older boats may not be compliant. Sometimes the rule changes are about how the boat is measured, or how precise the measurements need to be. Sometimes changes address features that are outlawed as dangerous or overly expensive, Sometimes it is about eliminating some previously undefined feature that results in an unfair advantage. Sometimes it is about requiring added safety features or a change in a minimum or maximum weight, .

While I was not able to find the history of X-Class rule changes, by way of an example of a similar class, the E-Scows (governed by the same regional sailing association), describes the following:

"1974 - In April permission was given to Johnson Boat Works to build a fiberglass boat, and sail the prototype in the Championship regatta. Concerns about the insufficient amount of flotation in hulls were discussed. The current flotation rule (By Law Article VIII, Section 14) was approved in form. 13 cu. ft. of foam were required. A request to build a cold molded wood-resin hull was denied. 1975 production of Johnson fiberglass boats was approved subject to verification of shape by Measurer Malone. "

In other words, in this example, the 1974 Johnson built fiberglass prototype was required to add more floatation when the class standardized the minimum required floatation. Over time other changes in the class would have made earlier boats non-class legal. (The evolution of the E-Scow rules can be found here: History of Rule Changes - National Class E Scow Association)

Those kinds of rule changes are pretty typical in older one design classes. As noted above, the changes happen for a wide variety of reasons, but whatever the reason some classes allow older, non-conforming boats to be raced, some do not.

For example, as a kid, in the early 1960's, I raced an older wooden Blue Jay, that was grandfathered for club racing but was not fully class legal for major regattas. I was allowed to race it in major events only because things were looser back then, none of the non-conformance items helped with performance, and the boat was deemed to be non-competitive for a variety of reasons. Those issues were only raised when I took third in a major regatta, and were quickly dismissed for the reasons above.,

But not all classes are that lenient and these are very different times. X-Class calls for class legal molds and therefore boats to be laser measured to less than a 1/10th inch tolerance. Back in the 1960's and 1970's there was no way to measure with that level of accuracy.

If you want to get to the bottom of this, I would approach whomever told you that the boat was too old to be class legal and find out whether they have specific information. If they don't you would need to contact the measurer for the X-Class and ask them for any information that they can supply on why or why not your boat might not be class legal. If you really want to know whether or not it is class compliant, then you may need to get the boat measured by a class measurer and certified as class legal.

Jeff


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Hi BigK,

I think the sailing club will have a "Measurer". Thats a dude that knows the rules of the class and can certify the boat conforms, or what you need to make it conform.

Maybe the title "Measurer" isn't the correct term used in your part of the world (can @Jeff_H confirm?)...

Mark


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## BigK (Jun 14, 2021)

Jeff. I ap


Jeff_H said:


> First of all Big K, there is absolutely nothing that you have written above that suggests that what is happening is 'elitist'. In fact, reading what you have written, it sounds like the opposite of 'elitist' behavior., They are allowing your daughter to compete even though they believe that the boat is not fully conforming with the rules. Those members of the local club are giving you the courtesy of giving you a heads-up that the boat my not be fully class conforming so that you don't pay an entry fee and tow it to some far off regatta, only to have it not being permitted to race. On that basis, I would respectfully suggest that you may be over-reacting.
> 
> You need to understand that one-design class association rules can be very strictly enforced, that the rules change over time, and that due to those changes older boats may not be compliant. Sometimes the rule changes are about how the boat is measured, or how precise the measurements need to be. Sometimes changes address features that are outlawed as dangerous or overly expensive, Sometimes it is about eliminating some previously undefined feature that results in an unfair advantage. Sometimes it is about requiring added safety features or a change in a minimum or maximum weight, .
> 
> ...


Jeff
I appreciate your response. Thats the level of specificity I've been looking for. The absence of such has made me suspicious of their intent.

Perhaps they lack the knowledge to articulate their concerns as well as you have above. I certainly lack it myself.  Not sure I want to go through the trouble of getting it certified but if i do is there a website I can go to to find someone?


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

Class Association


X Boat




xboat.org


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## paulk (Jun 2, 2000)

Lots of changes may make a OD boat move from "measuring in" to "not compliant". Blue Jays, as Jeff mentioned above, now require flotation tubes or tanks in order to be class-legal and (therefore) to race. Aluminum masts are now permitted on Lightnings, along with adjustable backstays. It used to be that the masts had to be wooden, with fixed backstays. People often confuse what is current with what is "right". They ignore the fact that older boats are often grandfathered into class rules in order to enable owners to continue racing them, even though they may no longer be as competitive. Imagine someone showing up at the Star World Championships with the original gaff rig, for example. They're not likely to win. Asking the other sailors what the issues might be is probably the quickest way to find out what they're talking about.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

BigK said:


> Thanks to all lending their knowledge. The suggestions on this forum far exceed the specificity we are getting from our local club. It feels like elitest behavior by the locals to me.
> 
> My fear is that the specificity is witheld until right before a regatta is held on our home lake. Perhaps I am over reacting.


Or they will wait until she starts winning, then protest!

Sent from my SM-G981W using Tapatalk


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## Explorer (Oct 22, 2014)

A.Ignore anyone who says it is not legal but wont tell you why the boat is not legal. They will do one of 3 things:
1 whinge and bitchbehind your back
2. get bored and let it go
3 protest you in which case they will have to prove their asertion that the boat is not legal

B. Ask for the name of the club measurer (if there is one) for that class and ask them if the boat is obviously not legal. If they actually measure it for you as volunteers it is customary to show your appreciation, eg buy them a beer at the club, give them a decent bottle of wine. They should issue a measurement certificate if it is legal or once it is made legal.


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