# Bluewater with no engine?



## SamH (Jan 4, 2015)

G'day guys 

I've browsed around here heaps recently, but finally took the step and signed up!

First, I have some small boat sailing experience years ago, but nothing like deepwater sailing. The reason I'm asking this is because I've come across something I can't stop thinking about...

I'm in Fiji at the moment, and chatting to a bloke in a bar the other night who happens to be selling the Columbia 34' I've been staring at for a days. kitted out, new gear, ready to go, except the engine has carked it (rusted out raw water intake).

He's happy and willing to spend a month or so with me around here teaching me everything I can learn. The issue is that I'd really need to work a bit before I can replace the engine. 

My question is: Is it realistic to sail from Fiji to east coast Oz (probably via Vanuatu) with no motor? Would it be difficult, or seriously unsafe? Part of me says that people did this for many, many years, so if there's a good reason not to, please explain! 

Wifi is hard to come by sometimes, but I'll check in on this soon. Cheers for the help!

-Sam


----------



## ReefMagnet (May 8, 2008)

The Pardeys could do it, but with limited sailing experience it would be very risky although, come to think about it, so is that Russian guy in the South Pacific at the moment.

All in all, I'd say "no way!" but it is possible if you're bold/foolhardy/crazy enough. Also don't forget that you'll need a reliable electrical charging source to run all you comms and nav gear. I'd also make sure what's left of the boat is up for the job if funds are tight.

Sent from my GT-P1000 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

A small outboard on a transom mount would be a good idea and get sailing experience until you are ready to cross to oz and to save the funds for a new raw intake is that what's wrong with the motor or is it the head or block that's rusted out?


----------



## SamH (Jan 4, 2015)

Cheers for the quick replies -

It has both wind and solar for power, and a 500w generator. And a VERY small (4hp) outboard for the dinghy (useless?) - I had thought of the transom mount as a stop gap.

Am more than happy to spend a few months island hopping around fiji, thought that might be a good idea to get outside storm season as well...


----------



## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

It is a rather large boat to be sailed without engine. Sure it can be done but it would take considerable skill to get it in and out of port. How many stops are you planning to make? What size crew?


----------



## aa3jy (Jul 23, 2006)

ReefMagnet said:


> The Pardeys could do it2


The Pardeys used an oar for propulsion in some situations on their first vessel.

Lin and Larry Pardey - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

"some small boat sailing experience years ago" doesn't sound like enough preparation for a 700 mile open ocean passage. Planning to have a crew?

A rusted seawater intake doesn't sound like much damage.

This legit?


----------



## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

A 4 horse would do you in calm waters with a proper mount. Have moved my P35 with a 4 in a pinch. 
In answer to the "can"- yes, but fairly risky with limited experience. Sailing seems to be one of those things that the more skill you acquire the more conservative you get as you are more aware of the "there but by the grace of God" experience. 
Good luck!


----------



## Scotty C-M (Aug 14, 2013)

Putting an outboard on that boat would be ... not to efficient. Fix the engine before you buy the boat (set up an escrow account or something like that). You'll be better off.


----------



## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Hi Sam,
I wouldnt go near it with a barge pole.

Theres plenty of boats out there for sale that actually work. Why risk your life in some very rough waters? Not to mention a small reef or two around every land you are heading to.

How old are you? How many years could you have of joyous life, compared with tossing it away now?


----------



## harmonic (Sep 10, 2013)

Sailing amongst reefs and entering passages is hard enough without a motor unless you are very experienced.If I was you I would pass plenty of good cheap running boats elsewhere.


----------



## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

SamH said:


> Cheers for the quick replies -
> 
> It has both wind and solar for power, and a 500w generator. And a VERY small (4hp) outboard for the dinghy (useless?) - I had thought of the transom mount as a stop gap.
> 
> Am more than happy to spend a few months island hopping around fiji, thought that might be a good idea to get outside storm season as well...


The outboard on the transom mount would be a stopgap measure until you could obtain the necessary parts to repair the main inboard


----------



## SamH (Jan 4, 2015)

Thanks for all the honest advice.. Sounds like I figure out if I can get it fixed before leaving, or not bother with it. If it's just the intake it may be possible.. was just so tempted by everything else, and the price.. but I guess I need to be realistic 

Cheers everyone


----------



## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

SamH said:


> Thanks for all the honest advice.. Sounds like I figure out if I can get it fixed before leaving, or not bother with it. If it's just the intake it may be possible.. was just so tempted by everything else, and the price.. but I guess I need to be realistic
> 
> Cheers everyone


Just curious what was the price he wanted


----------



## aloof (Dec 21, 2014)

You don't need an engine for that boat. I'd sail from Fiji to Oz, no problem. Rolling in the calms is the biggest issue - I hate that. 

Nothing unsafe about sailing without an engine. What I would never do is untie from the mooring with only an engine. That is asking for trouble.


----------



## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

aloof said:


> You don't need an engine for that boat. I'd sail from Fiji to Oz, no problem. Rolling in the calms is the biggest issue - I hate that.
> 
> Nothing unsafe about sailing without an engine. What I would never do is untie from the mooring with only an engine. That is asking for trouble.


Right.... Ummmmmm..... Yeah, I agree with you... The Great Barrier Reef is an easy one for anyone to sail through. Well, except for Captain Cook. He didn't have an engine (or it wasn't working, I forget which) but he was an idiot. The man could barely chart Newfoundland, took the goose a few tries to find Australia and even then he missed Sydney Harbour. A goose he was. I could have told him "Don't hit Endevour reef!" But would he have listened?


----------



## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

More then a few cruisers with engines have had trouble sailing in Fiji. Take a wander around the boat yard in Vunda Point and check out all the hull, keel and rudder damage from all those charted/uncharted bommies...not to mention the reefs...


----------



## aloof (Dec 21, 2014)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Right.... Ummmmmm.....Great Barrier Reef...Captain Cook


Maybe you could enlighten us as to why the Great Barrier Reef is dangerous to sail thru? And why it is even necessary to sail thru? Was Cook's main problem lacking an engine or lacking modern charts? Is there some reason that a sailor is more apt to have trouble with reefs than the typical cruiser motoring?

aeventyr60: From Vunda Point, Fiji to Sydney Harbor there is one trivial reef opening to sail thru. Its a huge pass. No bommies anywhere along that route. What's the trouble? Automobile junkyards don't seem to deter people from driving cars.

seaner97: Relying on the grace of imaginary friends may one way to sail. A chart, basic sailing skills and a good boat works for me. It's just not that hard.

Just because many clueless cruisers or unlucky sailors have come to grief does not mean our OP will simply for the lack of an engine.


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

I wouldn't do it.

No freakin' way.


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Right.... Ummmmmm..... Yeah, I agree with you... The Great Barrier Reef is an easy one for anyone to sail through. Well, except for Captain Cook. He didn't have an engine (or it wasn't working, I forget which) but he was an idiot. The man could barely chart Newfoundland, took the goose a few tries to find Australia and even then he missed Sydney Harbour. A goose he was. I could have told him "Don't hit Endevour reef!" But would he have listened?


Didn't they eat him? Wouldn't have happened if his engine was working.


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

aloof said:


> Maybe you could enlighten us as to why the Great Barrier Reef is dangerous to sail thru? And why it is even necessary to sail thru? Was Cook's main problem lacking an engine or lacking modern charts? Is there some reason that a sailor is more apt to have trouble with reefs than the typical cruiser motoring?
> 
> aeventyr60: From Vunda Point, Fiji to Sydney Harbor there is one trivial reef opening to sail thru. Its a huge pass. No bommies anywhere along that route. What's the trouble? Automobile junkyards don't seem to deter people from driving cars.
> 
> ...


Heh-heh. You're funny.


----------



## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

Most of the folks that have a clue about the weather won't be sailing directly to Sydney from Fiji. Just sailing out of practically any anchorage in Fiji will be more then the OP could do at this point. Many, many experienced sailors have trouble with the bommies, reefs and and other charted/uncharted objects in Fiji. Very challenging navigation exercise if one wants to explore this area.


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

I surfed in Fiji once. I didn't have an engine on my board.

So there.


----------



## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

smackdaddy said:


> I surfed in Fiji once. I didn't have an engine on my board.
> 
> So there.


Did you get back to shore with your fin intact? No reef rash? How did you possibly survive? Think we saw you at Cloudbreak. Your crew will love Fiji. BULA!

https://www.google.co.th/search?q=c...&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=cwKqVJ_XKouVuASuj4LgCQ


----------



## SamH (Jan 4, 2015)

To explore the area with the current owner (who has been sailing around here for 4 months without an engine) was part of the plan. I guess that getting that experience with him on board would give me a good idea as to whether it's a practical plan for me...

Didn't realise it'd be quite so contentious a topic  But I do appreciate the different points of view! 

Fyi - not really necessary for me to go through the GBR (though surely it's fairly well charted these days....) as I'd be ending up further south anyway. And I never said 'directly' anywhere; I actually mentioned Vanuatu in the original post..


----------



## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

aloof said:


> Just because many clueless cruisers or unlucky sailors have come to grief does not mean our OP will simply for the lack of an engine.


yeah, if only those "clueless cruisers" had possessed the good sense of the OP (who admits to "some small boat sailing experience years ago, but nothing like deepwater sailing") to inquire of the good and wise folk of Sailnet whether such a voyage was advisable, right?

This one seems to me a classic example of _'If you have to ask the question, well, maybe...'_


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

aeventyr60 said:


> Did you get back to shore with your fin intact? No reef rash? How did you possibly survive? Think we saw you at Cloudbreak. Your crew will love Fiji. BULA!
> 
> https://www.google.co.th/search?q=c...&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=cwKqVJ_XKouVuASuj4LgCQ


Dude - nothing that big! We were with some friends on an island near Nacula. Maybe 8 footers. But that was plenty for me. I was trying to get used to a short board.


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

joethecobbler said:


> easy for me,
> difficult for you.


Yeah - but you're joethecobbler.


----------



## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

I spose the thing that still irritates me, and I know it shouldn't, is that people with limited knowledge get infused by BS dreams by con merchants and the BS instead of being called as BS on Forums is promoted as the right thing to do, and theres no defense because of forum rules....

Quite frankly Sam, the owner of this boat will tell you anything because he's a con man conning you out of your money with a broken and useless boat.

and the other point on sailing without an engine is more than foolhardy. its the insane ravings of a conned man.

and the people on this forum who think its a good idea to buy and sail there have not sailed there, have not sailed anywhere or are waiting for a place in an asylum.

See the screen capture below and tell me how you will navigate it by sail alone.
I am not wasting my time looking at the chart for your Australian trip, but I don't really need to as I have done it. Its not a trip for the deluded on a boat they are being ripped off buying.


Mark


----------



## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

I will say this. Anybody who decides to sail around the world without a working engine who doesn't know how to sail, better be good at learning how to sail really quick! Because, you're going to have to be.


----------



## Slayer (Jul 28, 2006)

See if the seller will take you out sailing several times before you buy the boat. That way you will have a better sense of what your in for before parting with your money. Even if he is honest, good intentions often fall by the wayside once the deal is done, and excuses may be a plenty when you ask him to sail.

I am offering no opinion as to whether you should attempt your sail.


----------



## Waterrat (Sep 8, 2007)

Mostly good advice but if you were to do something this crazy. You would need to stack the deck in your favor. First figure out exactly what is wrong with this boat and all of its systems. The standing rigging,running rigging, rudder, vane, autopilot, electrical, plumbing, hull, deck, keel, engine etc. Lots of important things to learn. You do need an engine for navigating such difficult locations and especially so with your experience. If possible find someone with a lot more experience to sail along. There are a ton reading this right now that could afford the flight and buy a 15hp outboard help you get the boat home on a slow run in the south pacific. If you can sail with the owner for four months and meet other experienced sailors who can look over the boat and you can pick their brains. Then spend some more time fixing, sailing and learning until you feel you are ready or until someone who does know what they are doing comes along. You need to know what can go wrong and how to prevent it or fix if it does. 

Granted you need to know this is a crazy stupid thing that if it does not go well you are seriously risking your life and probably many others that would try to save you. Your family would hopefully hate to lose you. Though it is possible to do what you want to do if the boat is sound, you think every move way ahead of time and maintain clear, and skeptical mind set and an extreme love of learning. Good luck and enjoy the process. It is surly an adventure.


----------



## Pendragon35 (Jun 26, 2014)

The Pardeys moved a 24 foot boat with a purpose built, long sculling oar. And they knew what they were doing with it. 

The engine is just one issue here. The larger issue is that you are not qualified to make an assessment of the boat. How is the standing rigging? Do ports/companionway etc. leak in storms? Are the seacocks operable and tight? Is there any sort of self-steering? How is the rudder and its attachments? Before anything, you should have a qualified surveyor look at the boat and tell him/her about your intended use.

I have an Alberg 35 bought out of love from a close friend nine months ago. She's a solid, well found vessel, systems all work fine. She's fine for cruising the Chesapeake and gunk holing where in real stress we could duck in somewhere. But I haven't really had a chance to evaluate the tope of the mast, spreaders, running rigging and I wouldn't take her offshore like this. Also, I've never made her heave to, she has no self-steering other than an autopilot that drives the wheel and that would run down the batteries quickly, so not a blue water boat in her current configuration.

Is yours?


----------



## aloof (Dec 21, 2014)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> ...infused by BS dreamsSee the screen capture below and tell me how you will navigate it by sail alone.


Okay, calm down, nobody is going to hurt you. Frankly, sailing across that chartlet you posted would be trivial for an experienced sailor. And a great learning experience for those with less experience. Look at my chartlet of *sailing* around Palau. Note the *tacking*. Sailors can do that. Note tacking out the very narrow reef pass on the far right. Any moderately good *sailor* 
can do this. Especially in a 30 foot boat. I do it regularly with a 50 foot boat ... singlehanded. Shocking? Complex navigating under sail can be learned in a few weeks. Our OP could learn it from the seller, easily.

What scares me is the engine dying in some tight spot ... with the sail cover on ... or the sails in bags below. That sounds dangerous.

Hang around any cruiser destination for long and several sailors will arrive engineless. Rarely by choice. Usually because of some breakdown.

The biggest issue is not enough wind. But the trades, in the right season, are reliable. If not, one just has to wait offshore or on an anchor until conditions are better. Perhaps a few days. That's *sailing*.

Whether the given boat is up to the task is another issue, but not the subject here.


----------



## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> See the screen capture below and tell me how you will navigate it by sail alone.



Very carefully, on a mild, clear day, with a high Sun, and good polarized sunglasses.


----------



## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

aloof said:


> seaner97: Relying on the grace of imaginary friends may one way to sail. A chart, basic sailing skills and a good boat works for me. It's just not that hard.
> 
> Just because many clueless cruisers or unlucky sailors have come to grief does not mean our OP will simply for the lack of an engine.


I think the point I was attempting to make was that when you've had enough of your own fups (experience) and seen others do stuff wrong you never would have even thought of, you tend to be better and more careful than when you were young and stupid and new. I don't think that is a new or unique concept. And yes, anyone that sails by prayer is an idiot. 
AND- I do believe that I pointed out that this could be done. Should is always the harder question to answer.


----------



## ReefMagnet (May 8, 2008)

And of course if you are implying that you intend to head towards the east coast of Australia from Fiji via Vanuatu in around a month's time after buying the boat around now you need to remember this is the peak period for cyclonic activity in this region.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

ReefMagnet said:


> And of course if you are implying that you intend to head towards the east coast of Australia from Fiji via Vanuatu in around a month's time after buying the boat around now you need to remember this is the peak period for cyclonic activity in this region.


I'm really beginning to doubt this was a legit inquiry. Maybe it was just naive, but it doesn't add up.


----------



## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

Minnewaska said:


> I'm really beginning to doubt this was a legit inquiry. Maybe it was just naive, but it doesn't add up.


Remember, the OP was in a BAR, talking to a BLOKE...probably drinking copious quantities of FIJI Bitter...Island dreaming coming alive on sailnet. Not sure he is much different from many of the poseurs here.


----------



## weinie (Jun 21, 2008)

aeventyr60 said:


> Remember, the OP was in a BAR, talking to a BLOKE...probably drinking copious quantities of FIJI Bitter...Island dreaming coming alive on sailnet. Not sure he is much different from many of the poseurs here.


Fortune 500 companies have probably been started from scribbles on cocktail napkins.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

aeventyr60 said:


> Remember, the OP was in a BAR, talking to a BLOKE...probably drinking copious quantities of FIJI Bitter...Island dreaming coming alive on sailnet. Not sure he is much different from many of the poseurs here.


The beer and bloke did go past me too quickly. Still, it was described as the "other night". Usually, all my great ideas at the bar, wear off at the same time as the beer.


----------



## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

An aside, we have had the opportunity to try many local beers over the past five years. Fondest memories are of Fiji Bitter. Not entirely sure if it was the beer or the beer towers. Had a memorable night at the Royal Suva Yacht Club (not that royal but there were three pictures of her majesty in the front foyer - but I digress). The local brewery provided free beer for a night when they showed an Australia-New Zealand rugby match on a huge projection TV on the lawn. Even my wife got into the rugby (she has little interest in sports) but that might have been the beer.


----------



## jerryrlitton (Oct 14, 2002)

I agree about the no engine thing, freaking dangerous that. Hardly been done before.


----------



## Waterrat (Sep 8, 2007)

I think all the negative comments scared off Sam. He asked a fair question and at one time or another most of us would have considered such a thing. Wasn't that long ago and folks didn't have a choice of an engine. They didn't have much for charts, and no radar, no internet to hear all the naysayers. Go for it Sam. If you have time to learn you can pull this off. Contrary to what it looks like there are a ton of helpful folks who can help with the steep learning curve. Even many of those naysayers. You should be able to live cheap on the hook in Fiji while learning. Sounds way better then then -14 C we have where I'm at. Good luck.


----------



## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

SamH said:


> G'day guys
> 
> I've browsed around here heaps recently, but finally took the step and signed up!
> 
> ...


do it! plenty of folks will help you out there

not here(obviously)


----------



## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

Just don't forget your bluewater bucket... You'll die without it.


----------



## jerryrlitton (Oct 14, 2002)

christian.hess said:


> do it! plenty of folks will help you out there
> 
> not here(obviously)


Not me either, I am just a facetious a SOB.


----------



## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

in all seriousness plenty of people would help you out with that delivery op, I would if I was there

a dinghy hip tow out, and in and then sail the rest...

nothing is impossible if you keep your chin up high and just let all the naysaying flinging out here in the "west" die on its own

of course you need a new yanmar, water heater, all sorts of new tanks and panels and controls to even make it out of the harbor alive

oh dont forget to get the newest and latest gen anchor

I mean youll die as soon as you drop your old crappy one

oh

make sure you replace all thru hulls with tank ones and please strap a new rudder next to the old one just in case

oh same for the keel I mean you never know right

geeze!

jajajaja

have fun learn and BURN while you can...youll laugh and be wiser later for it

cheers

hope you make it OP.


----------



## Waterrat (Sep 8, 2007)

Is this the Columbia 34 or the MKII Columbia 34? Does it have the Atomic 4 engine? Check out Moyer Marine Atomic 4 Engine Rebuilding and Parts for more info on the Atomic 4. Both Columbia 34's are getting pretty old but if sailed to Fiji and maintained and updated along the way it could be capable of what you want to do though far from ideal. This group might help with specific problems with this particular boat. https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/columbiasailingyachts/info


----------



## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

is it ichiban by chance?


----------



## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> I think all the negative comments scared off Sam. He asked a fair question and at one time or another most of us would have considered such a thing. Wasn't that long ago and folks didn't have a choice of an engine. They didn't have much for charts, and no radar, no internet to hear all the naysayers. Go for it Sam. If you have time to learn you can pull this off. Contrary to what it looks like there are a ton of helpful folks who can help with the steep learning curve. Even many of those naysayers. You should be able to live cheap on the hook in Fiji while learning. Sounds way better then then -14 C we have where I'm at. Good luck.


Wise words from someone who hasnt sailed that area, nor any ocean.

But I have and I am quite content to tell Sam as it is, and if me and the other naysayers who have sailed oceans and the Pacific have saved a life the thats worthy of the effort.


----------



## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

Plenty of services and facilities in Suva or Nadi to get that engine in good working order as well. if you could make it to Savusavu, stop in at the planters club and find one of the Whippi brothers, there are only nine of them so it should not be too hard. They are all New Zealand trained shipwrights and can pretty much fix anything. I spent an enjoyable time with this family while having my a new boom fabricated. They killed a pig and we and an awesome lovu under the banyan trees to celebrate. Great place Fiji. BULA!


----------



## Waterrat (Sep 8, 2007)

Well Mark I am not saying your advice is not correct. I do think he needs an engine. I think he would have a steep learning curve. I also think that we would need to know a ton more about the boat and his ability/motivation to learn. I think he would be an idiot to hop in a sailboat alone with no engine and little understanding of the systems and attempt to navigate such difficult waters. If the craft can be made sound and Sam has time and patience to learn what needs to be learned this is not brain surgery. If he can access and fix the boat and find some capable crew this could work out. Most likely you are correct in your assertion that he is getting swindled into taking a piece of crap boat. None of us really have enough info to be sure of any of this. Based on your comments you appear to draw conclusions before you have all the info. Again I am not saying your conclusions to _this situation_ are not true just that we don't know for sure. You are assuming a lot in most of your post about people you do not know and that often over simplifies things and well......


----------



## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

SamH said:


> [snip]
> Columbia 34' I've been staring at for a days. kitted out, new gear, ready to go, except the engine has carked it (rusted out raw water intake).
> 
> He's happy and willing to spend a month or so with me around here teaching me everything I can learn. The issue is that I'd really need to work a bit before I can replace the engine.
> ...


Sounds like he knows he doesn't know and wants to learn. I hope he finds the right boat and lets us know how it turned out.


----------



## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

me too! I think he is out of wifi for a while, whatever the case good luck

peace


----------



## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

Where were all these Sailnetters giving advice to a foolish Russian who took a $500 San Juan across the Pacific with minimal provisions and probably no engine to speak of... and now sailing off to who knows where... in fact they were cheering him on!


----------



## Waterrat (Sep 8, 2007)

Now that Russian guy is nuts. Rimas ?Round the World ? Small Craft Advisor Blog I do love the picture of his first attempt with the San Juan 24 standing on its keel and on one of the Aleutian Islands. Amazing he is still alive. I haven't kept up with the story but last I heard he was basically adrift in the South Pacific. He should of played the lottery with his luck and he could of had a much nicer ride. Cheers.


----------



## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Orville ! You can't fly that thing, you have no experience !


----------



## jerryrlitton (Oct 14, 2002)

boatpoker said:


> Orville ! You can't fly that thing, you have no experience !


I think some SNers just won't quite get this. But very fitting. Bravo. 
Jerry


----------



## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

My personal opinion is that one must be an absolute accomplished sailor prior to considering cruising engineless. Those who are not experienced or accomplished sailors who ask should be told that this is not the way for them. 

It's a little like a neophyte climber asking if they should do Everest without oxygen? If you have to ask, the answer should be no. If, on the other hand, the sailor asking the question has a room full of dinghy racing trophies, the answer might be different.

MedSailor


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I know this place can get critical, but come on folks. This is the OPs self described experience:

"I have some small boat sailing experience years ago, but nothing like deepwater sailing"

Telling him to just do it is sending him out on a 700 mile open ocean "engineless" passage. That's a total crap shoot. Orville was not likely to die. Come on. 

I'm not going to tell him he can't, but my sound advice is not to.


----------



## jerryrlitton (Oct 14, 2002)

Minnewaska said:


> Orville was not likely to die. Come on.


Well, up until that point, nobody actually flew (yes debatable). Somebody has to go first. He could have easily died. I think this is a poor example because we know he lived. However on the flip side, quite a few for a heck of a long time have sailed a long way without an engine. Most successfully even. Obviously with an engine it would be far easier and safer. Beyond my capabilities and courage BUT face it guys, you don't have to be a Moitessier to succeed. Do we? There has to be someone here with the knowledge to say how to do it, not why it cannot be done. I say give the OP (and some of us)some educated guidance without bursting his dreams. 
Carry on,
Jerry


----------



## aloof (Dec 21, 2014)

jerryrlitton said:


> There has to be someone here with the knowledge to say how to do it, not why it cannot be done.


Good post. I am surprised at the negativity on the forum. I have done long bluewater passages without engine. Well I had an engine, but it had no rod bearings. I did run it once while attempting to retrieve the anchor, but it made such a racket I though all my rivets, screws and teeth would come loose.

To plan such a crossing my primary concern is being flexible on the timing and duration of the journey. To depart a non-trivial harbor may require waiting for the right weather. Or a friendly tow. The voyage itself may require an extraordinary amount of time. One may not be able to enter some of the ports along the way. There are periods of calm that could strand one halfway-out for weeks. One may also need to wait outside the destination harbor for the right conditions. The possibility of a long journey requires one to ship plenty of food and water. I would have at minimum an extra months supply for the OP's 500 to 1000 mile crossings. The OP should know that a diversion to New Cal, NZ, or a return to Fiji is a distinct possibility.

There is nothing very difficult or dangerous about making the crossing either with or without an engine. As one poster commented, skipping a cruise thru the Great Barrier Reef would seem prudent. However, contrary to the opinion of some armchair sailors, bonking a bommie, running aground, short tacking up a channel, passing a hazard under sail alone, running out of rum, etc. etc. are not quickly followed by a horrible death.

A comment on the engine on the transom. I don't like that idea. Far better that the engine is on the dink, the dink tied along side aft. A 4 horsepower outboard will indeed move the OPs boat enough to help in most situations.

One needs to have the patience to sit out both calms and gales under bare poles. Without an engine one must take care to preserve the rig and sails. No flogging, slatting or luffing will be permitted.

Most every cruiser destination has some good samaritan sailor that will jump at the chance to tow the OP in or out.

My understanding is that in the tradewind season the OPs voyage would be expected to be an easy downwind with perhaps some rougher frontal weather approaching Oz ports in the S. Someone else could comment on this as my only reference is Jimmy Cornell's book.

Conclusion: Lack of an engine is a minor concern. Lacking some sailing experience is minor too as it will come quickly in the first few days out. Falling down, bonked by the boom, getting sick, breaking the rig, shredding the sails, running out of food or water, etc. etc. these are the OPs concerns.


----------



## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Guess I must have missed it, but presumably all those chanting _"Just Do It"_ have knowledge that this boat unquestionably possesses sufficient solar/wind/hydro generating capability to sustain her batteries for the duration of such a voyage?

Nah, what am I thinking... Why would a newbie with "nothing approaching deepwater sailing experience" need battery power to safely complete such an trip, anyway? After all, Cook, and Bligh did it without batteries, right?


----------



## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

JonEisberg said:


> Guess I must have missed it, but presumably all those chanting _"Just Do It"_ have knowledge that this boat unquestionably possesses sufficient solar/wind/hydro generating capability to sustain her batteries for the duration of such a voyage?
> 
> Nah, what am I thinking... Why would a newbie with "nothing approaching deepwater sailing experience" need battery power to safely complete such an trip, anyway? After all, Cook, and Bligh did it without batteries, right?


See post #55.


----------



## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

To think the Polynesians crossed the Pacific oceans on nothing but rafts/straw boats with nothing but celestial navigation.... the early sailors crossed oceans with no engine/electronics aboard.... many still sail with no electronics aboard and do very well...

The fact that many so called sailors here are dismissing someone crossing 700miles on a 30 foot boat with all the electronics needed but no engine is totally ridiculous... what would _you_ do when your engine fails and you're out 200-300 miles out... call the Coast Guard? As many do? Where is all that sailing experience and know how? Almost laughable at what I'm reading here... Aloof is totally correct in what he posted!
 :laugher


----------



## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

I hope I didn't come off harsh in my reply. I don't think an engine is always necessary, (and, even if I did, people like the Pardeys have proven me wrong).

I've delivered a sailboat with a busted engine, by just waiting for a great weather window and going. If I was in some place like the Bahamas and my engine got busted, I'd just sail home.

But, I've been sailing since I was 14. 

I wouldn't have wanted to try it when I was 13.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

The issue is not whether anyone can cross 700 miles in a sailboat without a motor. It's a question of whether someone with absolutely no relevant experience can do it. 

It's not dashing anyone's dreams to say this isn't going to happen. I just isn't. That's actually pretty clear.


----------



## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

manatee said:


> See post #55.


Thanks, I obviously missed that...

But, merely saying "it has wind and solar" gives little indication as to the ability to maintain the battery bank aboard a 34-footer... I see folks all the time who have spent thousands on "wind & solar", and still have to run their engines to survive at anchor in the Bahamas  No indication given as to what he'd using for self-steering, and of course a 500W gas generator will be pretty useless for prolonged battery maintenance...

Always amazing how robust the cheerleading for such a venture can be, without so much as a single visual clue as to the _ACTUAL_ condition of this boat... Might some photos of the boat make any difference at all, or would folks simply encourage this guy to Go For It, no matter what the thing might look like?

)


----------



## aloof (Dec 21, 2014)

Respectfully, the OP *did not* ask about whether his experience was reasonable or safe. OP was asking about doing it without an engine without regard to how much experience OP has by the time OP sets out on this voyage. Nor did he describe or ask if the condition of the boat was reasonable.

Bravo and thanks GuitarGuy56, thank you. What *are* our moorhead posters going to do when the engine quits halfway to somewhere?


----------



## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

I must be living in the wrong hemisphere after reading some the responses in this forum!

Sailing With No Engine?

I guess some of them must be the 'real sailors'!


----------



## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Define "Real sailors."


----------



## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

travlineasy said:


> Define "Real sailors."


.

That would be you, Gary.


----------



## aloof (Dec 21, 2014)

When I raced a motorless 33' sailboat, harbor and coastal, we of course sailed in and out of the marina, tacking up the fairways and all that. Even backing under sail into the hoist if we were emboldened enough by beers. No issues. But one rule on days with uncertain winds was, if nothing else, don't be the outside boat when the wind quits. Stay directly between a boat with an engine and the YC bar.

Never toy with dehydration!


----------



## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

guitarguy56 said:


> I must be living in the wrong hemisphere after reading some the responses in this forum!
> 
> Sailing With No Engine?
> 
> I guess some of them must be the 'real sailors'!


I believe you may be confusing some posters' advice to a stranger of unknown or dubious sailing abilities on the internet, with said poster's personal experience or abilities as a sailor...

)


----------



## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

May be so Jon... I have no clue as to the abilities of the OP and for all we know he has sailed as much as anyone here and just being coy.

This has no bearing on whether the boat could sailed engineless. The hull or rudder may be flawed, perhaps shoddy sails or rigging but none of us know any of this... I alude to the fact many are killing this guys dreams before he even makes the effort to check out the vessel and or it's capabilities.


----------



## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

guitarguy56 said:


> May be so Jon... I have no clue as to the abilities of the OP and for all we know he has sailed as much as anyone here and just being coy.
> 
> This has no bearing on whether the boat could sailed engineless. The hull or rudder may be flawed, perhaps shoddy sails or rigging but none of us know any of this... *I alude to the fact many are killing this guys dreams before he even makes the effort to check out the vessel and or it's capabilities.*


Well, these "dreamers" show up here and on other forums on a pretty regular basis... It requires _Fortitude_, and _Persistence_ to realize most every sort of Dream, and if someone is gonna be deterred by what some anonymous souls on a sailing forum might say, chances are that Dream was never gonna happen, anyway... Did a guy like Matt Rutherford solicit the general consensus of a sailing forum to give him the Green Light to circumnavigate the Americas in an Albin Vega? Hell no - he just went ahead and _DID_ it... Frankly, I think sometimes these 'dreamers' come here and start these threads, in a subconscious desire to be convinced that "No, perhaps that's not such a good idea..."

)

I learned a good lesson here (or perhaps it was over on SA, I forget) several years ago... A couple of Swedish guys started a thread, something like "How do we keep our boat from sinking/being crushed in the Ice?"... They were planning on sailing a 31' Hallberg-Rassy Monsun from Sweden to Greenland, thence thru the Northwest Passage, and were seeking advice on Yachtsaver-style floatation bags, among other things... Of course, the general chorus - of which I was a part - was to the tune of "What, are you guys freakin' _NUTS ???_ Attempting that passage in a small fiberglass sailboat ? Seriously ?"

Well, I followed their blog for a bit, and sure enough, they were running behind schedule, and wound up bailing out from the attempt that year, and headed south to winter the boat in Lewisporte, Newfoundland... I figured, "no surprise, they finally came to their senses..."

Little did I know, these guys were the real deal, and had the _FORTITUDE_ to make their Dream happen... The following summer, their tiny BEZELBUB became the first yacht _EVER_ to complete the NW Passage via the McClure Strait, the northernmost route possible...

Hallberg-Rassy - Open Yard Lecture 2014

I sincerely hope the OP of this thread makes his Dream happen someday, whenever that may be... But, I'm sorry, he certainly shouldn't require my encouragement to do so, and in this particular instance, I'm simply not comfortable 'endorsing' such a venture, given how little information we've been offered...


----------



## SamH (Jan 4, 2015)

Well that was some reading to catch up on 

Glad to have started such a vigorous debate! Over the last few pages a number of questions were asked, mostly about more information so let me help out there a little...

First, as to the abilities of the boat, before purchase I am planning on having a surveyor check it over. I know that I don't know enough to pick up anything that could be wrong, and things like rot inside the hull or deck I would have no clue. 

It's a 1972 Mark II Columbia (yes, Ichiban) that has sailed here from San Diego, leaving 2 yrs ago and around the South Pacific since then. The current owner has been sailing it without an engine around Fiji for several months. 

Some excerpts from the info I have so far...
'"good sails,storm jib, lapper jib, aries wind vane gear." 
ampair 100 wind generator, 255 watts of solar power. Honda 500 watt generator.
manual windlass. 
35lb CQR and danforth with 250' of 7/16 galv chain. and tons of anchor rode, tons of new extra line, new stearing cable, standing rigging is 1 1/2 years old. running rigging is new with spectra halliards. 2 speed jib wenches. jacklines and harnesses
brand new Garmin chartplotter/ depth sounder gpsmap441s, with new transducer. sony handheld ssb reciever. icom icm402 vhf radio.

I'm going to head out with him tomorrow, for a couple of days at least to see it in action. If I were to buy it, he said he's happy to spend 2 or 3 weeks with me, teaching me whatever I can learn - I would then probably spend at least another couple of months in this area before a longer trip.

I put up this question initially because I have a history of assuming I can do anything and realise that the potential consequences here are far more severe than in other parts of my life. Having said that, my adventures have never been anything I've regretted.

I'm looking forward to some time onboard, to get a real feel for how she is under sail, and whether I think I'm up for learning it in a fairly short amount of time. 

Another option would be to see if I can get it cheap enough that I can afford to have engine repairs/replacement done in Fiji. I'll find out exactly what's required on that front when we head out.

Anything else you'd like to know, please ask, I have internet for the night at least


----------



## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

Thanks for the update. I hope it works out for you. Good Luck!


----------



## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

SamH said:


> Well that was some reading to catch up on
> 
> Glad to have started such a vigorous debate! Over the last few pages a number of questions were asked, mostly about more information so let me help out there a little...
> 
> ...


Thanks for filling in some of the blanks, that all sounds reasonably prudent and level-headed, to me...

Best of luck to you, keep us posted...

)


----------



## sugarbird (Dec 23, 2013)

My advice would be to listen to everybody's opinions and make the choice that feels right for you. On the plus side, getting a really good, deep understanding and feel for how the boat handles under sail is invaluable, and starting out with the boat engineless might even be preferable. On the other hand, not being able to motor through lulls can be a giant PITA, and in some situations it can easily become downright dangerous. Yes, people all over the world have throughout history, and continue today to sail without power, so sure, it's doable. But to my mind it increases the risks to boat and crew a goodly amount.

I sailed all over the USVI & BVI one winter with a blown engine, and that experience improved my seamanship quite a bit. On a passage from the EC to the NE US another year the engine packed up and we sailed 4-500 miles w/o power. Again, great experience...BUT, it wouldn't be my choice to start out engineless.

Good luck!


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Here's a scenario. You have 50 knots on the stern quarter and 15 ft following seas that are being blown over on the top. What do you do? Which sails do you have up? Sailing around the islands to learn the boat, isn't going to provide this experience. 

It can certainly be done, both singlehanded and without a motor. If you know what to do. "Nothing like deepwater sailing" doesn't sound coy to me. In this part of the world, many sailors have pushed the epirb in the above scenario, because they ran out of clean underwear and weren't prepared. The Coast Guard hoists them off a perfectly good boat that may have torn sails at worst.

Just be sure to have someone aboard that knows. The OP or otherwise. All the best.


----------



## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

SamH said:


> Well that was some reading to catch up on
> 
> Glad to have started such a vigorous debate! Over the last few pages a number of questions were asked, mostly about more information so let me help out there a little...
> 
> ...


awesome

I KNEW it was ichiban as the young couploe frequently posted on latitue38, they bought the boat for pennies and outfitted and sailed along the south pacific just fine...barebones and having fun

I hope you get a similar deal on it.

I would read up latitude 38 and do a search for ichiban there as there might be some important info there for you

my best wishes and luck for the trip and or purchase...if you need any help with the engine and or other systems just poke in here in ask...

hopefully youll get a decent answer here or there...

peace

here you go sam(i posted this on the 500 a month thread before some fools couldnt stop nagging there about how stuff like this couldnt be done and simply coulndt let it go...there is a wealth of info and links on that thread if you ever feel the need to check it out)

http://www.latitude38.com/lectronic/lectronicday.lasso?date=2012-07-20#.VK0_ZivF-Qs

http://www.latitude38.com/changes/Changes11-13.html#.VK0_4CvF-Qs

http://www.latitude38.com/lectronic/lectronicday.lasso?date=2013-08-05#.VK1ABivF-Qs

peace


----------



## Waterrat (Sep 8, 2007)

Good idea to get a survey. For all that haven't read the wooden boat forum link for sailing with out engine it is an excellent thread. I hope this all works out well. Best of luck and enjoy the adventure. Keep us posted and let us know if we can do anything to help.


----------



## Waterrat (Sep 8, 2007)

A little write up about the Columbia 34 MKII. It points out what to look for on this particular hull.

Columbia 34 Mk II Review


----------



## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

Well what i noticed is he says that the Columbia 35 is for SALE with no engine. This boat has no value without a working engine. It is purely worth what the parts on it can be sold for minus the cost to dispose of the hull. OK if the guy was willing to give it away it might make sense to try to install a used motor, but even then only if all sails are in excellent shape. Otherwise run. If the motor was allowed to get into such shape I am sure the rest of the boat is in similar shape. I know this is not the US market, but I am sure there are likely better boats available. Also this boat was never built or intended to cross oceans, so it is likely very worn out. It was built as a coastal cruiser with weekends in mind.

So whether or not it can be sailed without an engine is really irrelevant, the fact that it woudl be a terrible idea to BUY the boat is relevant. If it were free it might be worth it to try to sail it.


----------



## Tenoch (Sep 28, 2012)

miatapaul said:


> Well what i noticed is he says that the Columbia 35 is for SALE with no engine. This boat has no value without a working engine.....Also this boat was never built or intended to cross oceans, so it is likely very worn out. It was built as a coastal cruiser with weekends in mind.
> 
> So whether or not it can be sailed without an engine is really irrelevant, the fact that it woudl be a terrible idea to BUY the boat is relevant. If it were free it might be worth it to try to sail it.


Just a couple quick comments here. The boat as I understand it is a Columbia 34. At least one of these has circumnavigated....and this boat has sailed from San Diego. Personally I don't like these boats, I think they are ugly, but they are definitely strong enough.


----------



## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

Tenoch said:


> Just a couple quick comments here. The boat as I understand it is a Columbia 34. At least one of these has circumnavigated....and this boat has sailed from San Diego. Personally I don't like these boats, I think they are ugly, but they are definitely strong enough.


Well most any coastal cruiser can be taken offshore, but given the extra loads, it will wear out the rigging and stress out the hull to deck joint, the keel bolts and what not. So how much value is left on what was an inexpensive coastal boat to start with after such offshore trips? The newest one of these boats is going to be about 40 years old. And yes, I agree the MKII are ugly. That whole Bill Trip cabin house never really appealed to me(heresy I know), it is OK on a bigger boat, just looks like a tank turret on a bath tub when on a boat this size. The MKI was not a bad looking boat though.


----------



## Tenoch (Sep 28, 2012)

miatapaul said:


> And yes, I agree the MKII are ugly. That whole Bill Trip cabin house never really appealed to me(heresy I know), it is OK on a bigger boat, just looks like a tank turret on a bath tub when on a boat this size. The MKI was not a bad looking boat though.


Another thing is that it has about 40 vertical feet of freeboard. I swear you could play racket ball against the side of one. The 22', which is just a smaller version of the exact same boat, isn't as bad looking.


----------



## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

To the Op; can it be done? sure. My first response is if you have to ask the answer for you is most likely no. If this guy is willing to sail a few weeks have him deliver the boat for you or go with him, he will say no because he knows the truth about his boat. Bill Trip is an excellent designer and the 34 would be a great candidate for sailing sans engine but why? It has very little value and you can buy a like or better boat anywhere in the world for 10K and not have to make such a passage. If the price is low enough why not just stay is the SoPo and have fun with it. As far as actually making this passage with no engine it will be the least of your problems. Sail out make the crossing and sail as reasonably close to your destination as possible then call for a tow. My real concern is if the seller can't fix such a simple issue. If he can't fix that what what else can't he fix or what else isnt he telling you. Either way I"m not there but you are, you can see the boat and the ocean go sail for a few weeks with no engine and you will see how easy it. Now all you have to do is figure out how to navigate and sleep. There is nothing in the world easier than sailing. We were all newbies and all did boneheaded stuff which is why we all all so experienced now and yes we are all still learning.
PS a 6hp on the transom will work and while not necessary will make life much better. Good luck with your choice, may it be a wise one.


----------



## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

barefootnavigator said:


> My real concern is if the seller can't fix such a simple issue.


The wisdom of dispassionate third party.


----------



## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

barefootnavigator said:


> To the Op; can it be done? sure. My first response is if you have to ask the answer for you is most likely no.


This is how I feel.


----------



## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

miatapaul said:


> Well what i noticed is he says that the Columbia 35 is for SALE with no engine. This boat has no value without a working engine. *It is purely worth what the parts on it can be sold for minus the cost to dispose of the hull.* OK if the guy was willing to give it away it might make sense to try to install a used motor, but even then only if all sails are in excellent shape. Otherwise run. If the motor was allowed to get into such shape I am sure the rest of the boat is in similar shape. I know this is not the US market, but I am sure there are likely better boats available. Also this boat was never built or intended to cross oceans, so it is likely very worn out. It was built as a coastal cruiser with weekends in mind.
> 
> So whether or not it can be sailed without an engine is really irrelevant, the fact that it woudl be a terrible idea to BUY the boat is relevant. If it were free it might be worth it to try to sail it.


Miatapaul

its a sad day in the sailing world when a SAILBOAT is deemed WORTHLESS because it doesnt have a damn inboard

and even worse that one that works is considered only scrappable for parts

its part of the reason that sailors and society TODAY is the **** it is really

throw it away, its useless buy a NEW one.

when something is throwable, and trashable based on conjecture, based on what the masses have been told to beleive

its a sad day

when its been damn obvious that the boat has made it to "paradise" has cruised has done all the things its not SUPPOSED TO DO

yeah a columbia 34 isnt the quentessential blue water cruiser, oh no its not a tayana 37 I guess it sucks.

your attitude and thoughts on the matter are the reason people go out there against the odds and for better or worse prove how wrong these thoughts really are.

now dont take this personally but just reading your post makes me itch, makes wanna go out and sail the ****tiest boat out there and have just as much fun and see the same sunsets, and cruise the same places that people with the throwaway mentality and "perfect" boats out there want us to beleive is the only way to do it.

its what moitessier talked about in his books and other greats about how **** society as a whole has become...and that was in the 60s!

"the great monster" that makes us so damn greedy and needy and as a whole ignorant and useless.

beleive me I know Im the minority when I speak like this but I hold my beleifs strong and if the op is listening its this you have to remember

99% of people out there will always want to put you or your thoughts down and for no reason other than to be assholes they will incessantly belittle and put down your ideas and plans. Some of them dont even realize how damn negative they are.

asking questions these days and looking for guidance or a tutor or partner or guide is a lost art, a lost pass time...

I really feel bad for any soul that comes on here simply to ask a question on a boat and then all of a sudden he lets out some information and gets the wrath of stupidity and so called(dont wanna crush your dreams BUT) cautionary wisdom that so many of us have on here have and then guess what? you say:

I guess you are right guys what was I thinking, stupid me for trying.

anyways...

sad sad sad...

hope all you guys with new boats and so much money in the bank with so much wisdom and perfectionism and cautionary tips out there are happy.

its almost like you enjoy telling people it cant be done...

peace

ps. oh yes this is a rant btw...for those that dont like rants...jajajaja


----------



## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

Agree Christian... At first the rant by the others here was the engineless or non working engine... Now the rant is how ugly or useless the boat is worthy for scrap... but just recently I did posted a picture of a sailboat WORTHY of being scrapped and I recieved a lot of flack for it... something about maybe the owner was a war veteran (of course without any proof)... It is a sad day indeed when someone posts anything on these boards to get good wholesome input but is being told IT CAN'T BE DONE or scrap the boat for parts!


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

ch. I think you're really humping on the wrong leg. The boat isn't worthless because of some lost romance with the art of sailing. It's the same simple economics that existed back in Moitessier's day as well. Put two identical boats next to each other, one with a working motor and one without. If the one with the motor is worth less than the cost of adding a motor to the one without, the one without has no value. Sailing has nothing to do with it. (edit..... I'm not arguing this particular boat is worthless, I don't know it's market value)

I think I could write a counter-rant on those that overly encourage risk taking, by insufficiently experienced sailors. The OP hasn't sailed in years and has never been offshore. I'm just not that emotionally attached to the argument to defend myself in a thousand words. There's just no conspiracy to douse any dreams here. You ask a question, you get an answer. It's a simple game, man.


----------



## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

no minnewaska Im not humping on any wrong leg...Im simply expressing the ridiculusness of calling a sailboat worthless and scrap because it had no engine...

btw Im not cheering and or blindly telling the op or any new cruiser or dreamer out there to "just do it"
most know me to be pretty damn conservative and cautious and redundant

what I also find so damn amusing is how a boat is crap yet made it to where people want to go cruise to and from.


----------



## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

SamH said:


> kitted out, new gear, ready to go, except the engine


Maybe an explicit explanation of the above, & some photos & a survey/report from a qualified person would help in evaluating the boat. I, for one, am not ready to scrap it just because a hunk of metal has a hiccup.


----------



## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

Minnewaska said:


> ch. I think you're really humping on the wrong leg. The boat isn't worthless because of some lost romance with the art of sailing. It's the same simple economics that existed back in Moitessier's day as well. Put two identical boats next to each other, one with a working motor and one without. * If the one with the motor is worth less than the cost of adding a motor to the one without, the one without has no value.* Sailing has nothing to do with it. (edit..... I'm not arguing this particular boat is worthless, I don't know it's market value)
> 
> I think I could write a counter-rant on those that overly encourage risk taking, by insufficiently experienced sailors. The OP hasn't sailed in years and has never been offshore. I'm just not that emotionally attached to the argument to defend myself in a thousand words. There's just no conspiracy to douse any dreams here. You ask a question, you get an answer. It's a simple game, man.


huh?

I mean seriously

I want to know how something is worthless based on the fact that it doesnt have something another thing has

so I have a tennis racket, one has a damper on it(to prevent the "bounce") the other doesnt

so now all of a sudden I have a no value racket

its ****?

how does a boat without an engine suddenly become value less??

it boggles my mind.

I mean is there another similar boat on fiji that is a better buy? if so lets see it

sometimes guys its not about getting the best deal out there, sometimes just maybe its about the experience and the actual doing stuff thats worth more

if that means learning to sail in the south pacific on a cheap boat and getting out there go for it

if that means you can also go to oz and search for boat there(oh wait yeah they are really expensive there and hard to get compared to us priced boats from the west coast, lets not forget) than go for it too

whatever it is have at it


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

christian.hess said:


> no minnewaska Im not humping on any wrong leg...Im simply expressing the ridiculusness of calling a sailboat worthless and scrap because it had no engine...
> 
> btw Im not cheering and or blindly telling the op or any new cruiser or dreamer out there to "just do it"
> most know me to be pretty damn conservative and cautious and redundant
> ...


Okay, you and I are good. As far as I'm concerned anyway. 

However, you are conflating whether the boat can physically be used and whether it has any monetary value. They are not the same.


----------



## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

guitarguy56 said:


> Agree Christian... At first the rant by the others here was the engineless or non working engine... Now the rant is how ugly or useless the boat is worthy for scrap... but just recently I did posted a picture of a sailboat WORTHY of being scrapped and I recieved a lot of flack for it... something about maybe the owner was a war veteran (of course without any proof)... It is a sad day indeed when someone posts anything on these boards to get good wholesome input but is being told IT CAN'T BE DONE or scrap the boat for parts!


thats the *you can never please everyone *fact showing its funny smile at you


----------



## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

christian.hess said:


> Miatapaul
> 
> its a sad day in the sailing world when a SAILBOAT is deemed WORTHLESS because it doesnt have a damn inboard
> 
> ...


While I can agree with you on the fact that it is a shame that we live in a throw away society. On the other hand there are so many boats out there that are available for free or close to it, often with a working motor. Why put money into this? I have not seen the boat, but it was bought for little money, ridden all the way across the Pacific and being dumped by the guy who sailed it there because it is not going to make it back. At least that is the way I have read this. I think YOU of all people know what it takes to get a boat back into seaworthy condition. This thing likely has bulkheads separating and all the issues you spent over a year working on you Islander. This guy seems to think he will be able to learn to sail in two weeks, spend a few months sailing locally then sail off. Not going to happen. At least not safely. Granted I have not seen the boat, no one here but the OP has seen it. But it has been subjected to more stress and strain than the boat was designed for in the first place.

Now if it was being offered to him for free, then perhaps it might make a decent learning platform if he has access to a mooring. Get his feet wet, learn what the boat needs before taking it offshore, then either spend the time and money fixing it up, or find another boat. But if the owner could not keep a motor running, what shape do you think the rest of the boat is in?

I hate seeing things get thrown away as much as the next guy. Heck my car is 14 years old and is the newest car I have ever owned, but I know it's history and know it is worth putting a bit of work into it. I know it is not some money pit, though it is getting there, you want to buy a nice 2001 BMW 530i? Forget about the part where I said it was becoming a money pit!  It really did belong to an old lady (my mother) who just drove it to the grocery store once a week.

On top of that, there are boats that are worth putting money into, and I don't see this as one of them, at least not as it has been described here. I certainly am not one to try to stop the guy from sailing his dream, just would hate to see him loose his dream because he put all his eggs into the wrong basket. (how is that for mixing metaphors?)


----------



## Waterrat (Sep 8, 2007)

It seems like some folks automatically look for a why something shouldn't or couldn't happen while others might look at how might this happen. I don't think anyone posting here wants to send some crappy boat with a poor sailor on a blue water crossing. I do think there are lots of small easy steps along the way that anybody who likes a challenge and loves learning can figure out and make happen. For the many times I have been told I was wrong or I was going to die by any number of naysayers they were always wrong and I would of missed out on excellent adventures. We all have different risk tolerance. I am all for Sam making an educated choice. If survey comes back and says he has one keel bolt and rudder is bent, and he gets sea sick when he spends 20 minute on the boat then sure by all means tell him he is crazy but quit making assumptions about people, situations etc. before you know for sure.


----------



## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

miatapaul said:


> While I can agree with you on the fact that it is a shame that we live in a throw away society. On the other hand there are so many boats out there that are available for free or close to it, often with a working motor. Why put money into this? I have not seen the boat, but it was bought for little money, ridden all the way across the Pacific and being dumped by the guy who sailed it there because it is not going to make it back. At least that is the way I have read this. I think YOU of all people know what it takes to get a boat back into seaworthy condition. This thing likely has bulkheads separating and all the issues you spent over a year working on you Islander. This guy seems to think he will be able to learn to sail in two weeks, spend a few months sailing locally then sail off. Not going to happen. At least not safely. Granted I have not seen the boat, no one here but the OP has seen it. But it has been subjected to more stress and strain than the boat was designed for in the first place.
> 
> Now if it was being offered to him for free, then perhaps it might make a decent learning platform if he has access to a mooring. Get his feet wet, learn what the boat needs before taking it offshore, then either spend the time and money fixing it up, or find another boat. But if the owner could not keep a motor running, what shape do you think the rest of the boat is in?
> 
> ...


why do you have to put money into it? see this is something I have an issue with today

who came up with the dump more than you spent on the boat to make it "safe" or seaworthy mentality out there

its currently cruising(the boat that is) crossed a major part of an ocean and has been geared up with important stuff and mods already

the only bad part is it has no inboard currently

why not just sail as is...spend money on booze and food and the scenery and just go...

who is telling this boat and person that he needs to dump so much money into a boat that already works and why does he have to do that and why is it assumed that this boat isnt worthy of some $$$ investment

why all the assumptions why?

I just dont get it miatapaul its not against you or those that caution to not dump money into an old production weekender boat slash cruiser or whatever its the assumption of so many things like

HE NEEDS AN INBOARD NOW OR ITS SCRAP
THE BOAT ISNT A CRUISER, ITS JUST A DAY SAILOR
YOU NEED TO DUMP SO MUCH MONEY INTO THAT BOAT SO YOU CAN CRUISE AWAY SAFELY(YET ITS ALREADY CRUISING)
THE ASSSUMPTION THAT THE BOAT ISNT MAINTAINED BECAUSE THE PREVIOUS OWNER DIDNT KEEP THE ENGINE GOING
THE ASSUMPTION ITS BETTER TO BUY A BOAT SOMEWHERE ELSE
THE ASSUMPTION THIS BOAT IS GOING TO BE SOLD FOR A LOT OF MONEY AND THAT THERE ARE BETTER BOATS OUT THERE

of course there are always ifs, but darn man just look at all the assumptions being made and think about it...

why?

peace


----------



## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> If survey comes back and says he has one keel bolt and rudder is bent...


I'd guess the odds of the OP having a professional survey done on that boat are not even remotely close to _"Slim"..._


----------



## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

regarding surveys thats something else I dont get these days however I also find it a hard very hard mission to get a survey where the boat is currently at...

well I found the ad for ichiban...if anyone is interested...

looks beautiful in paradise...a tad high asking price but hey...

go get her sam!


----------



## mustangchef (Sep 21, 2012)

With my small amount of knowledge{ Chapmans' Piloting} has been at my bedside for three winters now...there are a couple things I would like point out. 
1. You would have to test the boat in conditions expected. Checking its weak /breaking points.
2. I would do a challenging out and back, to see if that might just get it" Out of your system."
3. Pick the right time of year( wind currents, weather]
4. Have someone on crew that has done and knows the route.


----------



## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

$18.000 for a boat he paid $2000 for? At least he says he paid $2000 for it in the Latitude article. I hope this guy is willing to share what he has been smoking!

Columbia 34' MKII 1972 sailboat for sale

I do have to say the boat looks a bit better on the outside than I woudl have expected, but has no photos that would indicate any real idea of the condition. The only reason to not have more than 2 distant shots of a boat on Craigslist is that you are trying to hide something. I still say for free it might be worth it. A boat without an engine in an area full of reefs and a new sailor are a disastrous combination. Now I don't know what the market is like there, but I think the OP would be way better off jumping on a plane and buying a boat here, and fix it up and sailing back. Though it does have an atomic 4 so perhaps it can be resurrected. They are simple engines that seem to go on for ever, perhaps it is something simple. But this boat woudl be lucky to bring $18,000 with a working diesel and in perfect shape, just dreaming with a broken motor, and old sails. (he says he paid $200 for used sails before he left and they did not get any newer going across the Pacific)

I don't think I am trying to destroy anyone's dream, except for Justin's dream of getting ten times what his boat is worth.


----------



## Waterrat (Sep 8, 2007)

JonEisberg said:


> I'd guess the odds of the OP having a professional survey done on that boat are not even remotely close to _"Slim"..._


Now why would you assume that Sam is lying? He may have difficulty finding someone qualified in Fiji but to automatically assume it is a lie before it is even possible, practical, or objective to know one way or the other. Is it hard to live expecting the worst from all you don't know?


----------



## Waterrat (Sep 8, 2007)

From my understanding the boat market is a lot tighter then the USA. Though 18K seems pretty steep but if all is in reasonable condition and the engine was running then it might be close. Maybe some folks from OZ can comment more accurately on the market for boats.

I have a feeling the 18K is the highest hoped and starting the inevitable negotiation. Sam has gained a ton of information that offers him tons of negotiating strength. 

I would want to know the quality of those old keel bolts, and the condition of the rudder and exactly what was wrong with the atomic 4. There will probably be someone arriving Fiji who has atomic 4 and all sorts of spares. Dive, fish, surf, learn to sail your new home till someone shows up with a spare or you learned to slow down and have the patience to sail everywhere and master your yuloh.


----------



## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> Now why would you assume that Sam is lying? He may have difficulty finding someone qualified in Fiji but to automatically assume it is a lie before it is even possible, practical, or objective to know one way or the other. Is it hard to live expecting the worst from all you don't know?


Sorry, my bad, I'm certainly not accusing Sam of "lying"... I had completely forgotten his mention of planning to have a survey, I believe I first read that post pretty late the other night 

Also, having followed the owners thru LATITUDE 38, I had no idea the asking price for that boat would be as high as it is, to the point where a survey might be in order... I was mistakenly assuming that boat would be going for a few grand, max... I now see it is equipped with a flat screen TV, however... 

Still, time will tell... Not familiar with his exact location, but the cost of having that boat hauled wherever it is, and a comprehensive survey performed by a true professional, is not likely to be inconsiderable...


----------



## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

No nothing like boat yards, marinas and other yachtie services in Fiji. Most likely cheaper then off the turnpike in Jersey.

http://fijimarinas.com/vuda-point-marina/


----------



## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

aeventyr60 said:


> No nothing like boat yards, marinas and other yachtie services in Fiji. *Most likely cheaper then off the turnpike in Jersey.*


Well, I have little doubt you're right about that...

)

But, as one who was too chintzy to pay for a survey before forking over a paltry $8K for my own boat, they still sound expensive, to me... 

Certainly not a bad idea for a guy like the OP, however, if he's gonna wind up investing anything close to the asking price...


----------



## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

In the interest of lightening the mood:

"Best thing to do is get her out on the ocean. If anything's gonna happen, it's gonna happen out there." ~~~Cap'n Ron

...but not a bad idea -- you can learn a lot on a sea trial.


----------



## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

JonEisberg said:


> Sorry, my bad, I'm certainly not accusing Sam of "lying"... I had completely forgotten his mention of planning to have a survey, I believe I first read that post pretty late the other night
> 
> Also, having followed the owners thru LATITUDE 38, I had no idea the asking price for that boat would be as high as it is, to the point where a survey might be in order... I was mistakenly assuming that boat would be going for a few grand, max... I now see it is equipped with a flat screen TV, however...


Don't forget the just installed stereo, gotta have a stereo, certainly more important than having an means of propulsion. I mean a stereo has to at least double the price of the boat. Oh and he bought two $100 used sails they must still be in good shape. It does make you wonder why he could not keep a rebuilt atomic 4 going for just two years? The Aries wind vane though is worth a bit.

I hate harsh on this, but it just looks like someone's dream got ruined, and he is trying to pass that on to someone else.


----------



## jerryrlitton (Oct 14, 2002)

I have to say that this thread is rather comical in the sense the contributors here are like politicians. Initially it was bad juju to SAIL without a motor. Just about everybody jumped on that bandwagon with both feet. The rest checked which way the (political) wind was blowing before they cast their votes. Now the rest of the contributors are leaning the other way. Too funny. Gentlemen, this is a sailboat sans auxiliary not a motorboat without sails. Whether it is a good buy price wise is another story. I still say don't let the motor part be the deciding factor in the it can or cannot be done scenario.


----------



## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

miatapaul said:


> I hate harsh on this, but it just looks like someone's dream got ruined, and he is trying to pass that on to someone else.


Sorry to say someone's failed dreams may be someone else's dream...

Isn't that one of the reason there are 'bottom feeder' boats available... I mean did you buy a NEW sailboat or did you buy someone else's perhaps failed dream?

And who is to say the seller did not live up to his dream? He sailed the boat from California to Fiji... something YOU probably have not done YET! :laugher


----------



## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

SamH -- I thought some of the more experienced members might have asked for better information and given you some pointers & support, but since not, I recommend you study this thread before parting with your hard-earned cash. Good Luck!

*sailingdog's Boat Inspection Tips*


----------



## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

any updates?


----------



## Andrew65 (Dec 21, 2009)

Mark and Jon, you surprise me. 

As two seasoned cruisers, you both came out swinging to bash a junior member on his 5th post. If anything, I would of thought you two would of asked more questions in the beginning than responding with firm opinion. I only hope that when I cut my docklines, engineless, that I don't have to resort to slamming others before getting a more thorough picture for my kicks. I commend you though for backing down as the thread unwound, so there is hope.

OP- if the boat checks out, then It is doable, with certain different cautions to keep in mind. If it takes you 5 years to get to the next island, then it takes you 5 years. If it takes you 4 years to the next, then it takes you 4 years...and so on down the line. Now if you want to get there in 3 days, you might want to reevaluate your plan.

Cheers


----------

