# Fsbo



## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

I wanted to share my latest boatshopping experience with the forum. Comments, as always are welcome!

I saw a boat of the year make and model that I wanted advertised at a rediculous price (200% of NADA average, 150% of BUC) For Sale By Owner. I contacted the owner and told him that my budget was in the 90-100% of NADA range. I asked him in an email "is it worth our talking further?" He replied that he would consider discussions at 150% of NADA. 

A month goes by and the boat is still advertised, so I contact the owner to see if it would be possible to take a look. He connects me with a friend of his that will show the boat because he is out of town, and we arrange for me to look at the boat. I drive 500+ miles to look at the boat, and stay overnight at a hotel so that I can see the boat at the appointed hour. The guy that showed me the boat is a nice guy, but he warns me that the owner is 80 years old and "stubborn." I ask him if he has showed the boat much - he's evasive. I ask him if he's showed the boat at all - again he's evasive. 

I go through the boat and conclude that it has not been used, other than as a floating condo. There are several issues with the boat, not the least of which is that the keel bolts are badly corroded, the electrical system is mickey-moused (wire nuts and electrical tape connecting the bilge pump, Romex connecting the battery charger to a 110V outlet installed in the rear quarterberth), and when we finally got it started, the engine looked like it was going to jump out of it's motor mounts. 

After looking at the boat I decide that this guy is not going to get serious about selling, and so I decided not to follow up. He then contacts me via email. He heard that I liked the boat, and that I took lots of notes. He wants to know if I am "a tire kicker or writing a book."  So, I tell him that I did not want to offend him but shared my observations with him, and that my soft offer at NADA value stands, pending the outcome of a survey.

The guy then gets huffy with me saying that any sale is as is, where is, and that he will now sell the boat to me for 400% of NADA value.

Just a warning to those of you who are boatshopping - there are some real fruitcakes out there! There are real advantages of working through a broker!!


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## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

Now ya know why the boat is still in an ad....


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## tager (Nov 21, 2008)

Just offer him cash. He will take it... and have patience.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

*No way*



tager said:


> Just offer him cash. He will take it... and have patience.


Thanks for the encouragement.

I _would _have paid cash - but, after dealing with his current reaction, I don't want to be dealing with this guy at all!

There are 8 similar boats currently on Yachtworld that meet my criteria, and are at 100-120% of NADA. I just have to keep shopping.


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## kd3pc (Oct 19, 2006)

Keep looking!!

There are some nutcakes out there, and then I guess some who are just ignorant. I was looking at a 2-3 year old 34 catamaran last year, found one at a decent price. Made two trips to see it, around the bay. ALthough I was there at the appointed time, "you just missed him" he was out sailing. I finally got him on the cell phone. When I asked about survey...his answer was "as is, where is" no survey no haul out, no nothing. I said thanks, told him I was no longer interested at any price. (he was asking $125K). Went on my way. Several weeks later, he called and emailed in the same day...he was going to be in my area, did I want the boat, he was prepared to step off. I asked about haul and survey...NO, he says..you don't get the picture...I said no, YOU don't get the picture. Phone calls continued for several weeks, I just let them go.

There ARE other boats out there. DOn't let this fool get to you. 

dave


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Thanks kd3pc,

I completely agree that there are other boats out there, and this guy is a fool, if not a psycho. Uh, hello?? - The entire world is in a recession, and the used boat market is not where most people are investing what money they have. :hammer It is not like this is a Passport/Valiant or something either. This make has widely been called the "Chevy of boats."

In my detailed response I let him know that; I liked his boat, but his price is way out of line with the market, next week, my wife and I are going to look at 3 other boats in the same/adjoining state that were priced within reason.

Today, I received an email from him telling me that he has slept on my offer, and he will split the difference between his 150% price and _what he inferred _I would offer. I have still never made an offer, or discussed a specific price. In his mind, we're now at 130% of what NADA says it's worth, and 140% of what it's worth to me in it's current condition. I believe that he is still offering as is, where is. If I were to make an offer, because I would have to deal with this AFOC, I would deduct an additional 10% of the boat's value.

Thanks for letting me vent! 

BTW - I am using percentages of NADA, in order to blur the picture to protect the guilty. I realize that the actual value of the boat (or anything else for that matter) is only what any particular buyer is willing to pay at a given point of time.


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## CBinRI (May 17, 2004)

Sometimes I wonder if guys like this are only listing the boat so they can tell their wife they are trying to sell it.

Don't want to be macabre, but maybe if you can wait a couple of years you can buy it from his estate at 70% of NADA value.


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## AjariBonten (Sep 7, 2007)

CBinRI said:


> Don't want to be macabre, but maybe if you can wait a couple of years you can buy it from his estate at 70% of NADA value.


:laugher :laugher :laugher

SOMEbody had to say it!!

:laugher :laugher :laugher


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## fullkeel7 (Apr 16, 2008)

Sometimes I think some owners tack on their 'sentimental value' to the value of the boat. They seem to overlook the tired sails and rotting wood. All they see is what the 'new' boat looked like and the fond experiences they had while aboard. That scenario happened to me with an older owner and her 30' Baba...when there were the attorneys, I passed.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

> Sometimes I think some owners tack on their 'sentimental value' to the value of the boat. They seem to overlook the tired sails and rotting wood. All they see is what the 'new' boat looked like and the fond experiences they had while aboard.


I don't think that that's the case here. I think that the old guy is used to getting his own way, and just likes money.

Anyway, I did reply to his latest email, and let him know that there are other boats in the sea.  I plan to look at several next week.


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## JimHawkins (Aug 25, 2006)

*split the difference*



eherlihy said:


> Today, I received an email from him telling me that he has slept on my offer, and he will split the difference between his 150% price and _what he inferred _I would offer.


My first job out of college I worked in a computer company. The head of the department had it in for one woman. She was horribly underpaid. He belittled her in almost every staff meeting. He spent his time running status on her workstation, and if she was idle for a few minutes he went and harassed her. Finally she went and found at new job at almost 70% more pay. When she gave him her resignation, he counter-offered to "split the difference" with her. And he seriously thought she would accept. I don't think he has a sailboat now, but you never know.


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## Mimsy (Mar 22, 2009)

Here's the thing, there are many, many boats for sale. There are not many buyers, even fewer with cash in hand. I would tell him this next time he contacts you. I would also let him know that you are willing to buy hs boat at 50% of NADA value, deducting from your offer for "crazy" and pain in the assness".


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## k1vsk (Jul 16, 2001)

No one in their "right" mind would expect a six figure boat (I am inferring $$$ here) to sell absent both a sea trail and thorough survey unless of course there are valid reasons the seller would prefer to not want either or both. There are too many other boats for sale to put up with what you described.


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## bobmcgov (Jul 19, 2007)

CBinRI said:


> Sometimes I wonder if guys like this are only listing the boat so they can tell their wife they are trying to sell it.
> 
> Don't want to be macabre, but maybe if you can wait a couple of years you can buy it from his estate at 70% of NADA value.


Exactly. Dude will croak in a few years and his estate will dump the boat for 70 cents on the book-value dollar. Too many nice boats sold by nice people to waste your time on dodgy boats or annoying sellers. "For Sale By Ogre."


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## sahara (Dec 15, 2006)

kd3pc said:


> I asked about haul and survey...NO, he says..you don't get the picture


Wow. A seller refusing to allow a survey? Talk about a red flag. As an owner, I'm very proud of the care and maintenance my boat has received under my ownership. If she were ever for sale, I would absolutely want the buyer to conduct a rigorous survey to give him confidence and comfort in the deal he's making.

A seller who refuses to allow a survey? Wow. Now I've heard it all. You were wise to walk.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

*The rest of the story...*

Thank you for all the support. Sailnet ROCKS! 

Because you have all been so supportive, I thought that I would share the conclusion of this deal.

To put this in context, the boat is currently in her slip, so beneath the waterline examination was not possible. According to his last email;


> Up grades to current codes and specifications is not being offered.


However, below are two pictures of the bilge of this vessel. Other than the bilge, and a loose radar mast, the rest of the vessel looked as if it was never untied from the dock in the last 20 years.

These pix were shared with the owner in my initial follow up email.









I loved the tape and wire nuts. Any ideas about what killed the battery? 

There appear to be keel bolts, but I shudder to think of what is left of them.










Here then, with minor edits and redactions, is the email reply that I sent to the owner after his offer to meet me half way (?!); 


> Mr X,
> 
> Thank you for showing some flexibility in your price.
> 
> ...


I finialized making arrangement to see the other three boats today.


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## k1vsk (Jul 16, 2001)

It's difficult to infer from the pictures of the keel bolts and wiring precisely what condition either is in - the bolts may or not be fine under the surfacial corrosion and the wiring, as long as it isn't indicative of the entire boat, is easily fixed.
Regardless, to be redundant, "as is, where is" is a good way to quickly part with your money foolishly. Why pursue this at all?


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

CP - there was no broker involved. I guess that my point in this thread is that people should beware of For Sale By Owner 

(I like bobmcgov's "For Sale By Ogre")


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## Joesaila (May 19, 2007)

*Too many boats...so little time*

You are holding all the cards. Just communicating w somone like that is stressful and any reply you get will continue to be antagonistic. He has probably gone through life doing that to people and what you have seen of the boat is a reflection of his personality. That boat will be there after his demise. So enjoy looking at and negotiating with the many other 'nice' people that are out there.....it is a buyers market!


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## Undine (Jan 26, 2008)

We just closed on our "new to us" boat. We spent 6 months and looked at around 20 boats. We made offers on 5. Two of the owners were out of line with their asking prices and refused to negotiate, didn't want to sell or needed the $? Two sold their boats to other buyers for less than we had offered, with contract signed (by us) and deposit check in our broker's hand. So there are some issues with some sellers which escape my comprehension. Boat 5 was bought for about 12% above NADA avg., with survey and sea trial.

An interesting note: This boat was "sold" about the time we started looking. However the deal fell through. It seems the potential buyer was senile, he remembered he was buying the boat but forgot from whom or where the boat was! So the oddities can occur on the buyers end as well.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

*Update*

For anyone that might be interested, this boat is still available. Go figure

It's been 6 months since I looked at it (now November - not a great time to sell a boat in the US), and probably 9 months since it was originally listed. It's one of 7 of the same model boat, currently listed on Yachtworld (one is under agreement). From the latest pictures, I see that he has hauled it, but the (deck-stepped) mast is still up. It's now available through a broker at 120% of NADA... (Remember that he offered it to me at 130% of NADA.)

I'm not sharing the particulars, to protect the guilty.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

eherlihy said:


> For anyone that might be interested, this boat is still available. Go figure
> 
> It's been 6 months since I looked at it (now November - not a great time to sell a boat in the US), and probably 9 months since it was originally listed. It's one of 7 of the same model boat, currently listed on Yachtworld (one is under agreement). From the latest pictures, I see that he has hauled it, but the (deck-stepped) mast is still up. It's now available through a broker at 120% of NADA... (Remember that he offered it to me at 150% of NADA.)
> 
> I'm not sharing the particulars, to protect the guilty.


And this comes as a surprise?!?    

120% of NADA, and he'll pay a commission on whatever lower price is agreed to. Plus another 6 months storage and haulout fees. Good grief.


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## CBinRI (May 17, 2004)

I am only more firmly convinced that he has it listed that high so he can tell his wife (or kids) that he has it on the market without any real risk that he will have to sell it.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

eh, you can try to teach algebra to a fencepost all day long, that doesn't mean the fence post is capable of learning it.

The broker may be involved in a deal with yard storage fees, i.e. "Give it to use for brokerage and if it sells, we'll refund your winter storage fee" and when the spring comes and the boat is still unsold, the broker happily will pocket the storage fee and probably collect one for the next season as well, as Mister Irrational won't want to pay to launch, either. 

There are boats that turn into yard queens and quietly rot in the bushes until someone puts a lien on them and sells them as "DIY Specials", we've all seen enough of them.

Better to steer totally clear of it, and not find out that He Who Knows Best did other clever things, like lube the engine with Castor Oil because it is less corrosive than motor oil...or some other clever thing that you just KNOW is going to jump around and bite you.


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## tager (Nov 21, 2008)

Maybe the fence post is. You would have to teach it to communicate to find out.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

*Sometimes FSBO works*

I'm reading this thread and thinking about the guy we bought our first boat from.

I was helping a friend put a new diesel in his boat when we heard a knock on the hull. There was an older guy who was winterizing his boat and couldn't lift the outboard off the bracket. Could we give him a hand? I put the outboard in his truck and looked at his boat, a Catalina 22 in nice shape, exactly what I was looking for. I told him if he ever wanted to sell to give me a call and gave him my number. In the spring he called.

He was such a nice guy. I told him I was new to sailing and that I wanted to get the boat surveyed. No problem. He'd bought every option for the boat. He gave us all kinds of extras. Things like a brand new pair of binoculars that I still use on my current boat.

When we went down to his house to pick up the cushions we met his wife. She was at least 25 years younger and beautiful. We thought she was his daughter! He was just a cool, quirky, nice old guy.

I guess what I'm trying to say is I wouldn't rule out FSBO boats, you might be overlooking a gem.

Jim


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Thanks Guys,

JRP - There is no surprise here, other than a broker is now involved. I'm guessing that should he ever sell it, Mr X is now loosing an additional 10% comission, plus storage, plus RE-launching. The last point is based on my understanding is that it is customary that the costs involved in preparing for sea trial are borne by the current owner. (I'm sure that someone will set me straight if I'm off base here.) I realize that he may avoid the re-launch fee if he lucks out in finding some noob as a buyer. My guess is that the haul out is a tactic to prevent a buyer from starting the engine.

I believe he would have been way ahead, both financially and emotionally, had he been realistic from the get go.

CB - I really don't think that he is just going through the motions of selling. The guy is in his eighties, and has sold off some other water toys (PWC, and a Center Console) prior to putting _Slip Queen_ on the market. The boat is actually documented in his wife's name.

HS - Yeah, I know. As Mark Twain said; "Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time, and it annoys the pig."

Frankly, I am no longer interested in buying this guy's boat. I was just surprised when I came across the listing in YW.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Jim,

Yeah, I have been hoping for an experience like yours, and am not ruling out FSBO. The point of the thread, however, is that there are advantages to dealing with a broker. In this case the broker has apparently injected some reality into Mr. X. (his price has dropped $10K)

Who knows, if I had not seen his original listing, and not gotten so frustrated (OK, I was pissed) with the guy, I might have contacted and dealt through the broker, and have sailed his boat home this past summer.


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## chas5131 (Nov 15, 2009)

Would never have made it as far as you guys without directing a few profanities at the guy and walking.
That might put me at their level, but it would feel good.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Well, chas, if you get bored...
Close on the deal and then pay him with a wheelbarrel full of Confederate dollars. Keep a straight face while he argues that they aren't dollars, and insist that of course they are dollars, it says so right here on each one.

To mangle eh's most excellent quote from Twain, sometimes the pig just deserves to be annoyed.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

hellosailor said:


> To mangle eh's most excellent quote from Twain, sometimes the pig just deserves to be annoyed.


Oh let's be honest. Sometimes it's downright fun when the pig is really an a$$.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

UPDATE:

Almost a year has gone by since I started this thread.

Last I knew, the guy did receive an offer, but the deal fell through. I suspect that a survey had something to do with that. The boat went back on the market, and the guy dropped from his original asking price by over 30% (still way over NADA) and listed it for another month. He recently took it off the market through the broker. I emailed him, curious if it sold. He replied that it was available and encouraged me to look her over. I asked if he would be interested in selling at NADA, understanding that there are issues with this boat. He said "no."


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

And you are surprised about this? What I did not see in your posts was whether you bought a boat in the past year, or are still looking.

In shopping for Catalinas in the 25-34' range this winter, I found that about 70% of them were way overpriced, and sellers extremely inflexible with potential negotiations. Some had been on Yachtworld for over a year (plus FSBO period for some of them). Bottom line - people can be stubborn, especially if they are able to use the boat while it's on the market. Some are just so emotionally tied to getting all their money out of it that they fail to realize that there may be no buyers at their price.

I made fair offers (based on carefully researched price history on Soldboats.com) on 5 of these boats and all were rejected. Thank goodness, since they were all bigger than I really needed for starting out. We went back to a 25' boat for daysails and occasional overnight, and will charter on the rare occasion we want to cruise for several days. We're more satisfied with the 25 footer knowing that we looked at bigger and decided we didn't really want them at this stage.

If we decide we want a bigger boat in the next couple of years, I fully expect to end up looking at many of the same boats we already saw. They will still be on the market - just 2 years older. And I would not be surprised if they are asking less money than we offered already.

By the way, in comparing NADA with price history on soldboats.com, it appears that NADA is about 20% low for production boats. I know some people insist that brokers inflate the selling prices when they report to soldboats, but I am not convinced that this is a significant factor. But it is relatively rare that I hear of a boat selling at NADA book price.


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## NCC320 (Dec 23, 2008)

I've read the posts on this thread with interest and would like to share a few comments. I do so from the standpoint of a FSBO.

Some of the anger at the seller seems to be that he is asking an outrageous price. Keep in mind, the boat belongs to him. He is free to set the price at whatever price he chooses, realistic or not. 

If you don't like his price, simply move on. You have nothing invested at this point, and as you have stated, there are other boats out there. Don't get angry at him for not selling the boat to you at the price you think is correct.

If you really wanted that boat for some special reason, you are more likely to get it if you treat him with respect, no matter if he is rude to you. Make him mad, and he won't sell to you no matter what, especially if he is in a position to keep the boat. Someone mentioned that there was a boat that was sold at a price less than they offered. Boats and owners often have emotional attachments, and sometimes, correctly or not, a person won't sell to someone that they believe will not take care of his prized possession.

Just as a potential buyer can raise his bid to get the boat, the seller is equally empowered to lower his price at some point. Be patient, state in touch, and he might come closer to you.

In reading these threads, there is a current thought that it is a buyer's market and buyer's should offer discounted offers of ~70% of the seller's asking price and they get angry if that isn't accepted. As a seller, if I have tried to price my boat at a realistic price (correctly or not), it is an insult to me for a prospective buyer to low ball me.

As to offering NADA prices, in setting my price, I looked extensively at what other similar boats were offered at, and other rating agencies valued the boat. BUC for example offered a range for the same boat from the low NADA valuation to 160% of NADA, depending on the boat condition. I've advertised my boat at a fair price. It's ok to offer a little less, but it's ok for me to hold my price. I personally believe NADA prices are too low.

As to demonstration sails. It takes time to take people out on inspection excursions. Why should I spend a day with a "potential buyer" who may or may not be serious. On past boats, I've had them show up with the whole family for a free day on the water with no intention of buying the boat. My time is valuable too.

Surveyors: The boats that I sold before were not surveyed, but I've read lots of articles about surveyors. Even though your surveyor is being paid by you, he has no right to do things that some of them do. For example, I don't want one hammering all over my boat. And if he expects that wood might be not sound, he has no right to stick a knife in the wood and rip it open. And if he suspects water may be trapped between the decks, he has no right to drill a hole in the boat to confirm his suspician. And if you are buying an old boat, the price is lower than new because there are some problems. If the boat was in absolutely new condition, it would be a new boat and priced accordingly. Since the surveyor is being paid by you, he will find something, that you will use to try to get me to lower my price lower than what we tentatively agreed to. And as for saying, fix this or fix that and I'll buy the boat, there will always be a difference in what I consider fixed and what you consider fixed. My boat is priced as is, where is. I have nothing to hide. You are welcome to go through the boat, bring your expert advisor to help you, and you should adjust your offer to what you think is appropriate for the boat as is, where is. And I will either accept your offer, make a counter offer (it's called negotiating), or reject you offer. At that point, you accept the price on the table, reject it and move on, or make a counter offer.

Buying a boat is stressful. Price negotiations are always stressful. And selling a boat is stressful becuase you know the buyer is going to try to beat you down on price. Stay cool and you'll get further. I might reject your offer today but adjust it downward on another, and call you to see if you are interested.

A personal experience....not a boat in this case. It was a waterfront lot that I bid in at an auction. After the absolute auction was over, the seller promptly rejected all bids. I and other successful bidders were furious. Later, that night, I received a phone call. The seller said that if I would raise my offer ~!2%, I could have the lot. I was pissed and told him where to get off.
So I didn't get the lot, someone else did. And in just a couple of years, the value of that lot had doubled. Had I kept my cool and thought the thing through, I would now have a waterfront lot and waterfront house. 

Over my life, I have purchased 5 sailboats, all new. I never had a demonstration sail on any of them. Think about all those high end custom yachts that are built "one off". The owners never get a demonstration sail in advance. And realisticly, how many of the potential buyers would really know a good sailing boat from a bad one?

Just an old guy's thoughts. Hope that they will be helpful in some way.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

NCC320,

Thank you for that post. I had hoped that someone would present the buyer's side of this.

It may seem that I'm angry, but I'm not. I am frustrated that I wasted two days, and 1 night in a hotel so that I could see this neglected vessel. He assumed that I would make an offer, and then was rude to me when I told him why I did not. A year later, he still owns a boat that he doesn't use, and I am still looking for a boat.

You are absolutely right that this 81 year old does not need to sell the boat to me or anyone else. I don't have to give this guy my hard earned money either. We are not talking about the national debt here. The difference between what I actually offered and what he is asking for the boat is less than $10K. This vessel is less than 35 feet, and 21 years old. However, I agree with RythmDoctor's observation that this, and several other, FSBO are not priced realistically. Perhaps they would sell if they were? I believe that the fact that this boat languishes is proof of that.

Also with a brand new boat, I would assume that everything works as it should, and will do so for some time. You have recourse if it doesn't through either the dealer, or manufacturer. On a 5 year old boat, I suspect that many of these checks would not be necessary. However, with a 20 year old USED boat, what you see is what you get. Buyer's need to be cautious. If you didn't allow me to: check for voids in the laminated hull or deck (by tapping with a phenolic hammer), check for moisture with a meter, look at the chain plates, or for check suspected rotted wood, on a 20 year old boat, I would suspect that you were hiding something.


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## NCC320 (Dec 23, 2008)

I am currently advertising my boat on several on-line listing services. One of my concerns is that someone, who lives some distance away, will read the brief description, call me, and have a different understanding of what we mean by "good or excellent" condition. Towards that end, I have posted a link to a website where I have lots of pictures showing the boat in great detail. In this way, a potential buyer will have already seen the good and bad of the boat. I realize this is the exception, and by doing so, I may actually be hurting myself. So many people (from experience) feel that there is always something hidden, that if I show a defect, the reaction may be: if he's showing this, what else is he not showing. Truly non destructive investigation such as a moisture meter would not be a problem. Hammering on, digging in with a knife, and drilling holes are not nondestructive. When the time comes for a surveyor to look at one of my boats, I will be there, and the minute that he starts these sorts of things, the survey will be terminated. Sorry, but a prospective buyer can't damage my boat and then walk away.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

I think disclosing all known problems is a good way to go. If people want to be scared away, they'll find a reason. But it also builds trust, and lets people know that you don't want to waste their (and your) time. If they aren't willing to accept these problems, don't bother to come see the boat.

It also frees you from being low-balled by a surveyor. If he "discovers" something that you've already disclosed, you are in a strong position to say that it was already known at the time the offer was made, and thus the contract price already takes that into account. I realize that if a buyer wants to low-ball you with the survey, nothing will stop him. But if he wants the boat he should realize that he can't change the price for a problem that was already disclosed. It would not be inappropriate for you to hold the line on price for survey issues that were pre-disclosed.

My only question about your strategy is refusing to let a surveyor do tappings. Tappings with a phenolic hammer are pretty well established as standard procedures for surveyors who are trained to do it properly. If nobody has tapped your boat before, then it is possible that a surveyor could discover something that you haven't disclosed (because you're unaware of it). So that might discourage potential buyers.

Does anyone up here have actual examples of phenolic tappings damaging a boat?


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

NCC320 said:


> I am currently advertising my boat on several on-line listing services. One of my concerns is that someone, who lives some distance away, will read the brief description, call me, and have a different understanding of what we mean by "good or excellent" condition. Towards that end, I have posted a link to a website where I have lots of pictures showing the boat in great detail. In this way, a potential buyer will have already seen the good and bad of the boat. I realize this is the exception, and by doing so, I may actually be hurting myself.


If this is true, you ARE the exception - and in a good way!

If you are willing to meet with a buyer, and tell him what you know - the good, the bad, and the ugly, and come across as being up front, then the buyer should trust you.

Tapping the deck with a hammer should not cause any damage. I could argue, however, that with a boat as new as your's (a 2001 Catalina 22?), it is new enough that core rot, delamination, and bulkhead rot should not be problems that the buyer should be concerned about.

When I saw "Slip Queen" it was not shown by the owner, or a broker, but by a friend of the owner. He did not know the details of the boat, and couldn't answer my detailed questions. The owner described this vessel to me as in "Bristol condition" - "must sell" 

I noticed that there was a patch on the starboard hull and high moisture on that area of the deck.
I later learned that the boat had broken a spring line, and had rubbed against a piling causing damage to the deck and hull. 
I found that the boat had been left for long periods of time, and the "new" batteries had drained from running the bilge pump. 
I found the mickey mouse wiring (wire nuts should NEVER be used on a vessel - especially in the bilge). 
I found that the head had not been used because the pump was broken. 
I found that the stove was never used because the gas solenoid had corroded off, and the propane tank was a NON OPD tank. 
I found that the keel bolts (pictured above) were severely corroded because of stagnant water in the bilge.
I found that the engine was in desperate need of service. It was vibrating so badly, that I believe that it will need new motor mounts.
I could go on...

"Bristol" my eye

After finding these issues, I decided that the owner was NOT honest or up front with me. No trust = NO deal.

FWIW - I would not allow anyone to drill holes in my boat either.


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## calden (Aug 11, 2006)

Going into buying a third (and bigger!!) boat over the last 6 years, I've got some thoughts on this thread. 

1) Americans are known the world over as having an inability to negotiate. We HATE to haggle prices, are not that good at it, get offended easily around it all, and don't have cultural training in learning how to do it. Thus you often have situations where the buyer or seller is doing what they think is negotiation and the other party thinks they are just being personally offended. I've seen this a lot when I lived in Asia and watched American tourists in markets. 

2) When I have sold my two boats I took pictures of everything that looked the least bit fixed or off in any way and described them in detail. I did not soft soap anything, often taking pains to specify what were minor possible issues. I want my buyer to know exactly what they are getting in part for their peace of mind in making an offer and in part so I won't get a call a month in the future with someone screaming at me "why didn't you tell me there were some blisters on the hull?"

3) Surveys are good. It's possible to specify a non-destructive survey with no destructive poking, cutting, banging. Using a phenolic hammer does not mark anything up, and only that or rapping with knuckles should be done. 
It is possible to negotiate the cost of a survey between buyer and seller. It's USUALLY done by the buyer, but splitting the cost benefits both buyer and seller. As a buyer, if I do not buy a boat based on the survey then the seller has a very recent survey to show the next buyer. It also gives the seller information about the boat that he may not have had, and a chance to fix things that are dangerous or that may raise the value and benefit the seller price-wise. Of course I'm assuming the seller has nothing to hide and wants to play fair. A very good tool for negotiation plus or minus on both sides. 

4) I totally agree with the suggestions that in the above case it was fruitless to negotiate with the older gent. 

I'm right now waiting for a survey completion on an old friend's boat. I have no doubt of my friend's honesty and diligence in having kept his boat up, but this may point out some items he wasn't aware of and we'll both be happy to know that. 

I also had a survey done on a boat I hadn't yet seen but was going to drive 300 miles to view. When I saw the boat I had a lot of good information already and it was really helpful. Primarily I saw that the owner had not made it ready to sell, and there were potential problems that might pop up unseen to either of us. I declined.

Carlos


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## CapnBilll (Sep 9, 2006)

CBinRI said:


> Sometimes I wonder if guys like this are only listing the boat so they can tell their wife they are trying to sell it.


WOAH! WOAH! Sssshhhhhh! What are you trying to do??? I've been telling my wife I'm selling the boat at 200% markup for years. So far I've only had to turn down a couple of buyers that actually tried to buy it. I'm not the only one, I've seen Megayachts advertised at grossly inflated prices, (I've heard this is a common practice for tax writeoffs).


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

How can advertising an inflated price get you a tax write-off? Heck, even if you donate a boat to a 501(c)3, you can't get the value of the donation until they've actually sold it and there's a value set on it. The IRS stopped that loophole up maybe five or ten years ago.

Some folks are simply in their own private Idaho. You may know them as "Eqyptians"? They're in De Nile?

I knew a corporation where the owner (a refugee from Germany before WW2, with all the baggage that often implies) had a room full of obsolete equipment in his warehouse, aking up very expensive real estate. Hadn't sold a piece in years, wouldn't consider donating it or auctioning it, insisted that if he paid one dollar, he needed to sell for $1.01 to make a profit. Nevermind that he was renting warehouse space elsewhere because that room was full, so he was getting deeper in the hole every month.

They finally went bankrupt, the equipment must have been auctioned with the other assets.

A lot of old boats become yard queeens, the sellers can't accept reality, and eventually the yard puts a lien on them and crushes them as scrap. Of course some of the seller are simply criminals, trying to con a newbie into paying for junk. "Sunk? Gee, I don't know, I don't think this boat was ever sunk." Uhuh, and that's just a trim stripe halfway up the closet wall...


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## Siamese (May 9, 2007)

There is a personality type out there that simply believes the things they own are worth more. Period. They're not just cheap. And there's no other motivation. They tend to be blind to any condition issues, and just have an inherent belief that stuff they own is more valuable. 

And then, of course, there are the people that are just out to screw you. Like the guy who won't allow a survey.

I bought a used 26 footer back in the eighties from a brokerage. I told them I was going to have it surveyed. They informed me that under their policy, surveys are fine, SO LONG AS I USE THEIR SURVEYOR. Of course I hired my own surveyor and told them he was my brother-in-law.


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## Willis (Jan 16, 2008)

This thread reminds me of a funny story from my purchase of a 15' Scirocco daysailer. I had just moved to the Norfolk, VA area compliments of the US Navy. I was looking for a trailer sailer and called on an ad for a boat in Portsmouth. Went to have a look and everything seemed fine. He wanted $800 for the boat and trailer. I tried to negotiate a little (21 at the time, so not much experience). He held firm to his price. He claimed to be a missionary, on his way to spread the good word in China and needed every penny for the trip. His little daughter was standing there with him, so I asked her if she enjoyed sailing. She said that the boat was a lot of fun, and she especially liked how her dad would always jump off the boat to swim. He laughed and patted her on the head. I agreed to his asking price. Well, the first time I took the boat out into Willoughby Bay, I found out why daddy always went swimming. The centerboard wouldn't release on its own. You had to jump in and pull it down from under the boat! I eventually got it squared away and had a lot of fun with the boat, but I wonder how many souls that guy really saved in China.


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

NCC320 said:


> ...it is an insult to me for a prospective buyer to low ball me.


It's not an insult. It's negotiation. You just say, "No, I have priced this boat very reasonably and I will not consider an offer that low." Then it's up to the buyer to decide if he wants to make a more reasonable offer. In any case, no reason to be insulted.



NCC320 said:


> As to demonstration sails... Why should I spend a day with a "potential buyer" who may or may not be serious.


You shouldn't. But a buyer who IS serious, you should. I would never consider buying a boat without taking it out for at least a short sail. And I have never sold a boat without giving the buyer a demonstration sail. But you only do that AFTER the buyer has looked at the boat, thought it over, and you and he have negotiated a price. In other words, AFTER he has demonstrated that he is "serious."

Of course, it's your boat, so if a serious buyer spends time looking the boat over, negotiating with you, and settling on a price, and then you tell him that you will not allow him a demonstration sail... Well, it's probably going to REMAIN your boat. At the very least, you are limiting yourself to only those buyers who do not understand that a demonstration sail before handing over the cash is a normal part of buying any boat that is bigger than a small daysailer.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

denverd0n said:


> You shouldn't. But a buyer who IS serious, you should. I would never consider buying a boat without taking it out for at least a short sail. And I have never sold a boat without giving the buyer a demonstration sail. But you only do that AFTER the buyer has looked at the boat, thought it over, and you and he have negotiated a price. In other words, AFTER he has demonstrated that he is "serious."
> 
> Of course, it's your boat, so if a serious buyer spends time looking the boat over, negotiating with you, and settling on a price, and then you tell him that you will not allow him a demonstration sail... Well, it's probably going to REMAIN your boat. At the very least, you are limiting yourself to only those buyers who do not understand that a demonstration sail before handing over the cash is a normal part of buying any boat that is bigger than a small daysailer.


I'd point out that negotiating a price doesn't mean much unless the guy is willing to put a deposit down on the boat as well. *The deposit is what really shows that they're negotiating in good faith and are serious..*.the rest is just window dressing IMHO...anyone can do it.


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## Argyle38 (Oct 28, 2010)

denverd0n said:


> It's not an insult. It's negotiation. You just say, "No, I have priced this boat very reasonably and I will not consider an offer that low." Then it's up to the buyer to decide if he wants to make a more reasonable offer. In any case, no reason to be insulted.
> 
> You shouldn't. But a buyer who IS serious, you should. I would never consider buying a boat without taking it out for at least a short sail. And I have never sold a boat without giving the buyer a demonstration sail. But you only do that AFTER the buyer has looked at the boat, thought it over, and you and he have negotiated a price. In other words, AFTER he has demonstrated that he is "serious."
> 
> Of course, it's your boat, so if a serious buyer spends time looking the boat over, negotiating with you, and settling on a price, and then you tell him that you will not allow him a demonstration sail... Well, it's probably going to REMAIN your boat. At the very least, you are limiting yourself to only those buyers who do not understand that a demonstration sail before handing over the cash is a normal part of buying any boat that is bigger than a small daysailer.


Question, for future reference. Would it be reasonable to hold off on the demonstration sail until after (or part of) the survey? That way a potential buyer is clearly serious, since he has ponied up some cash for the survey.

I bought Argyle without any on-water demonstration, but she was the definition of yard queen.


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

sailingdog said:


> I'd point out that negotiating a price doesn't mean much unless the guy is willing to put a deposit down on the boat as well.


Good point. I guess in my mind that went without saying, but then you guys aren't in my mind, are you?

I guess that rather than saying a demonstration sail is normal "before handing over the cash" I should have said, "before handing over the final payment".


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

Argyle38 said:


> Question, for future reference. Would it be reasonable to hold off on the demonstration sail until after (or part of) the survey?


That is most usually when the demonstration sail is done, as part of the survey.


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## NCC320 (Dec 23, 2008)

Exactly how does the deposit work? Does it mean that the potential buyer has put down a deposit that he will forfeit if he takes the demonstration sail or makes the survey and then doesn't take the boat? In my simple view, if the deposit is not at risk, it means nothing. The deposit ties up the seller while the buyer makes up his mind, and if the deposit is returnable, the seller really is in no better position than if he didn't take a deposit. Either way, he is just banking on that the buyer will like the boat or that the survey won't find so much wrong that it kills the deal (surveyors will always find things wrong on an older boat, won't they?) So even the negotiated/agreed upon price means little, because you have to deal with the survey items.


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## lobstahpotts (Jan 1, 2011)

However, the deposit is typically a fairly substantial amount, so that even if it was fully returnable, it requires some level of seriousness on the part of the potential buyer as they still have to give up that amount of money for at least the negotiated time. One wouldn't really choose to do this unless they really wanted a certain boat, in my opinion. Certainly not to get a sail with the family, as I believe was mentioned earlier in this thread.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

I have purchased 8 boats in my life. I have one currently so I have sold 7. 

Once a boat is found that you like an agreement is reached on price, after negotiation, and subject to survey and test sail usually. A deposit may or may not be made but there is a signed contract. The survey, paid for by the buyer as the surveyor is his agent, may show up nothing, or issues from minor to deal breakers. It is up to the buyer to determine how serious these issues are. If the buyer decides to go ahead he may renegotiate depending on how serious he believes the problems are. Surveys use non destructive methods. Sometimes a specific issue will crop up that may require removal of something on the boat for further inspection and this would be done after agreement is reached between the buyer and seller.
The test sail if it is a production boat is more formality from a sailing point of view in my opinion, as the boat's performance should be known from research done beforehand. It is however important to show the condition of the propulsion system and other equipment where the condition and operation can only be determined under way. However on a custom boat or one-off a test sail is often the only way to gauge performance.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Dealing with a stubborn FSBO is like wrestling a pig in the mud. You have to remember that the pig likes it. 

Couple of other observations on the dialogue. Test sails are important, they can reveal problems with rigging or hidden ones with running gear. On my last boat, we had no idea that the electric cabin top winch had a problem until the test sail. It came on/off at the dock, but quick died under load. Further, for my dollar, sail condition can only be truly inspected while sailing. 

Wherever possible, the test sail should take place during the survey and should not include the owner. Many are reluctant to send their boat off with a surveyor and should hire a trusted captain for an hour instead or make the buyer pay for one. Owners often make the buyer uncomfortable and they leave with the feeling that they didn't get to see all they wanted to see. Uncomfortable buyers don't write checks.


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## omaho5 (Jun 5, 2008)

I'm relieved to know that others suffer this fate, too. I was born with a generous "bone" in my body and will always negotiate in good faith with people. ran a good business in this manner and still did well.
Never the less, I have run into people like this old bastard so many times. They MUST win everything and if you get screwed, so much the better.
Keep this person at a distance and buy a boat from a person that is a pleasure to conduct the transaction.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

I am surprised that this thread has come back to life. I guess that it raises an issue that is near and dear to all of us; not getting screwed. Because I kicked off this thread, I thought that I should weigh in on another FSBO experience that I had prior to FINALLY buying my boat.

I found an ad in Craigslist for a model that I was interested in. I contacted the seller, and he invited me to view the boat at the Beverly Yacht Club in Marion Mass. I joined him at the agreed upon time, and he rowed me out to his boat, which he kept on a mooring. He pointed out several of the improvements that were made to the boat, described how he and his family used her, and then offered to take me for a sail. He also pointed out several things that he wished to improve if he were keeping the boat.

I was very surprised at his offer, as I had predominantly been dealing with brokers. My experience with brokers was that you could look through the vessel, but not start the engine, or hoist the sails. This guy and I had a nice, albeit short, sail. I insisted that we head back because I didn't want to tie up his time, and the Buzzards Bay Regatta was returning to the yacht club that we left from. 

After the sail, I bought him a beer, and we discussed sailing in general and the festivities that were about to begin. His daughter, who worked at the club, saw to it that we were both treated well while we were there. I felt like an honored guest, and was invited to stay. I was not going to make an offer on the day that I saw the boat, and definitely not after two beers. He did not pressure me to do so either.

The next day I made an offer of $4K less than he was asking for his boat. He said that he would have to think about it. Two days after our sail, he called to tell me that he had reached an agreement with another buyer for $1K less than he was asking. He was NOT asking me to counter, but he was providing me with information that would help me with my buying decision going forward.

In short this was a GREAT experience, and I wish that we had come to agreeable terms. However, now that I own a similar boat, I realize that I made the correct decision. 

The success of an FSBO depends entirely on the owner that is selling the boat. When working through a broker, he mitigates the owner's impact on the sale, and this can help the sale process (as in the case of the FSBO that started this thread), or not.


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