# Sewage Hose or PVC Pipe ?



## Cotemar (Mar 27, 2003)

Cruisers,

I wanted to share my experience replacing my sewage hose on our Catalina 380.
We purchased this boat used. It was only three years old, but the head really smelled bad. After we purchased her, most locals said that they had looked at the boat but it smelled, so moved on to look at other boats without issues. We negotiated a better price based on the head smell problem.

Now, what's the solution?
Hose is simple to install but will have the same problem in a few years as the hose permeates with urine & sulfurous malodors over time.
Better sewage hose like a SeaLand's OdorSafe Plus sanitation hose is very expensive and gives you a few more years, but will still odor permeate.

PVC house hold pipe is cheap and will never odor permeate, but takes more time to install.
We went with the PVC. We sold the boat after six years. Never had any plumbing problems and the boat always smelled great. The boat sold in one week.

1) This is standard PVC 1-1/2 inch house piping
2) Cut piping with a hack saw and small wooden miter box
3) Dry fit the whole system together
4) Put timing marks on each pipe and fitting with a black magic marker
5) Start at one end and glue and align your black timing marks as you put the pieces together.
6) At the toilet use a 1-1/2 coupling with a compression fitting on one side to connect to the toilet. Works great and never leaks and can be taken apart for servicing.
7) At the deck fitting I used just a short piece of hose since this will only be exposed to sewage for short periods of time.

I thought it was a good do it yourself job and will do it again on my current new boat in the near future when needed.<O</O

Mark<O</O


----------



## Cotemar (Mar 27, 2003)

*Boat Smell*

It's all about *"Boat Smell"*.
Boat manufacturers do not use high grade sewage hose.
This thread was started to address "Boat Smell", by using a permanent PVC pipe solution.
A lot of cruisers just deal with having a progressively smelly boat then changing the sewage hose when it becomes almost unbearable to take the bad "Boat Smell". 
The common theme with this "Boat Smell" problem from reading other post is that it should have been replaced a few years ago or I can not sell by boat "WHY"
Over time most boat owners have no idea that their "Boat Smells", because they are on it all the time or the miss's has sprayed or has candles burning.
Of coarse your friends or guest will not tell you, but you had better know they talk about it together or to others.
It takes years, but over time all "Boats Smell" because of poor grade sewage hose.
Most of you can remember boat shopping and getting on a few boats with this "Boat Smell" problem. Those boats stay on the market for a really long time.
The only reason one would go with PVC piping verses sewage hose is to address the *"boat smell problem" over a long time*. Changing the sewage hose a few times will work also, but most do not.

As a side note: I left a 3 foot piece of the old sewage hose in the woods behind my house for over a year. It still smelled as bad as the day I removed it from the boat.

With first hand experience using PVC pipe over sewage hose over the long haul and as a DIY project, it was easier than I had envision when I started the project.

With this problem addressed I could move on to other concerns without worries.

Mark


----------



## erps (Aug 2, 2006)

Looks good. It would probably take me 50 trips back and forth for fittings. How many hours do you figure you have into the refit?


----------



## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

On the other hand, the last time I looked, the use of rigid PVC pipe does not meet ABYC standards and so could invalidate your insurance if something went wrong. Before doing this you might want to check with ABYC and your insurance company.


----------



## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Jeff is right. The macerator shown will move a bit on its mount and the hoses have to be flexible to accomodate this and other slight movements that have to be expected on a boat.


----------



## Cotemar (Mar 27, 2003)

Ray,

It took me 4 hour to install. Purchased more fittings than I would need and returned the unused ones. 

You will here the ney sayers here, that's just the nature of these forums.

My PVC sewage system was installed and ran for years without a problem and no BOAT SMELL.

I would not post anything that did not work for me or anyone else.
This is just posting my REAL WORLD EXPERIENCE and the outcome.

This boat also wintered in the water.

Mark


----------



## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

Well

While it works for you they are (surverys and Insurance) real fussy about below the waterline materials and will do silly things like make people change hoses to ones with the correct markings


----------



## erps (Aug 2, 2006)

I have been thinking about going the half and half route, with a mix of PVC in low areas and easy runs with high quality hose in the hard to do areas. I did not considered problems with insurance companies and surveyors though. Nutz, more homework.


----------



## AboardIndigo (Aug 23, 2007)

I don't know anything about the ABYC standard (because I'm too lazy to look it up), but Nigel Calder touts rigid PVC as a solution to the 'boat smell' problem. He furthermore highlights the fact that the worst offending portion of the flexible hose equation being where effluent is left standing due to routing/design.

I can see erps' 1/2 'n' 1/2 solution as being the best of both worlds - use rigid PVC where effluent may be left standing, with flexible hose judiciously used only wherever a flexible connection (to a unit, tank, whatever) makes sense from a 'we don't want it to crack due to flexing between components' insurance perspective.


----------



## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Up here in the Great White North we use ABS (not PVC) for household plumbing. I have used ABS on my boat for 15 years using only 6" of sanitary grade hose at each throughull/toilet/tank connection (for vibration protection)and have never had a smell or a problem.

ABYC makes no mention of ABS or PVC as hose replacement and there is nothing in the standards which would even suggest they not be used. Like everything else on your boat installation method is important.
PS I am ABYC Standards Certified.


----------



## erps (Aug 2, 2006)

I unintentionally use PVC as a generic term for all plastic pipe. Can you tell what kind of pipe was used by the OP? And if you know off hand, what's the difference between ABS and PVC?


----------



## CanadianDave (Jul 17, 2010)

erps said:


> And if you know off hand, what's the difference between ABS and PVC?


Abs Pipe vs. PVC | eHow.com


----------



## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

The OP appears to have used std PVC. There is some Green versions that are std for home use, as is the black stuff. Not sure of personally the composition difference, or if one is better or worst if you will for smell down the road vs the softer stuff. I would probably go with black or green vs the white off hand. Then again, i would probably install the white, as I have some 3000' of the stuff for jobs in various and sundry sizes from 1/2" to 1.25 and some 1.5 and 2" fittings pipe etc. SHould have thought of this before rehosing last summer eh!

Marty


----------



## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

ABS (Acrylonitrile Butadiene Styrene) is 
highly rated as a thermoplastic pipework
system and is used in many applications 
such as food and beverage processing
as well as water and sewerage treatment 
and many other industries.

ABS has good chemical resistance with 
high impact strength. ABS is non toxic and 
conforms to the toxicological requirements 
of the British Plastic Federation, British 
Industrial Biological Research Association 
Code of Practice for food usage 45/5.


PVC - Polyvinyl Chloride
•strong and rigid
•resistant to a variety of acids and bases
•may be damaged by some solvents and chlorinated hydrocarbons
•maximum usable temperature 140oF (60oC)
•usable for water, gas and drainage systems 
•not useable in hot water systems


----------



## poopdeckpappy (Jul 25, 2006)

I'm kinda glad the OP posted this, I have been considering going ABS, but was worried about flex


----------



## nickmerc (Nov 2, 2008)

As stated earlier the 50/50, or maybe 80/20, approach is probably the best solution. Putting pipe for most of the system with hose at connections for the head, thru-hulls, black water tank, and maybe the macerator. Just allow room around the pipe for it to move a bit and the boat to move a bit.

I use this approach with industrial machinery when connecting to building utilities. This way we can hard pipe them most of the way and use hose for the last few feet allowing us a little wiggle room on placement and accounting for the vibration.
________
Live sex


----------



## mtspub09 (Jan 31, 2009)

*PVC fittings and long straight stretch?*

I am a bit curios as to how you dealt with the long striaght, narrow stretch between vanity and the nav desk. Did you have to use several very short pieces and couplers?

Also, I am unclear on the coupling to the waste elbow. The elbow normally fits inside a 1.5" hose and is hose clamped in, but you show it in a compression fitting... It seems that a 1.5" compression fitting as described in the text would be WAY too big. Can you help me out?

Thanks,
Marty



Cotemar said:


> Cruisers,
> 
> I wanted to share my experience replacing my sewage hose on our Catalina 380.
> We purchased this boat used. It was only three years old, but the head really smelled bad. After we purchased her, most locals said that they had looked at the boat but it smelled, so moved on to look at other boats without issues. We negotiated a better price based on the head smell problem.
> ...


----------



## GaryHLucas (Mar 24, 2008)

In my day job I design industrial and municipal waste water treatment systems, using all PVC pipe. We use sch 80 (dark grey) heavy wall, not sch 40 (white) light wall pipe. All the fittings are exactly the same size on the OD but the ID is smaller. We use only Spears brand fittings, not because they are particularly better, but because unlike threaded metal pipe the fitting dimensions are not standardized across brands. We build to exact dimensions, so its real important we use fittings of same dimensions all the time. There is also a larger selection of sch80 fittings available, but they are harder to find at plumbing stores.

The idea of using hose at tight areas is kind of backwards in some respects. You can make much tighter bends using fittings than you can with hose. So what is difficult with hose could be easy with pipe.

There are two basic removable connections with PVC. Unions, with a large nut and O-ring seal that works very well. Dresser couplings which squeeze down a rubber bushing onto an unthreaded pipe. You also can get soft PVC low pressure flex connections using two hose clamps (try McMaster Carr)

Gary H. Lucas


----------



## davidxingyin (Sep 2, 2020)

Your sharing is great, but is the quality of the products you buy good?

The quality of the products I bought in this place is very good
they are PVC fitting manufacturer, they can make all kinds of plastic pipe fittings


----------



## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Jeff_H said:


> On the other hand, the last time I looked, the use of rigid PVC pipe does not meet ABYC standards and so could invalidate your insurance if something went wrong. Before doing this you might want to check with ABYC and your insurance company.


With all due respect, I have looked through the ABYC standards as of 2016 and can find no reference to the restriction of using rigid PVC pipe in a holding tank system.

The only standard that I believe would address this is TH-29. However, because it was a new standard in 2017, updated in 2020, I don't think you were referring to this in December of 2010.

For the record, I have installed a good deal of Trident 101 (white) Sanitation Hose (>$10/foot!) some of which is mated to a 10-foot run of SCHED 80 rigid PVC pipe which runs from the head compartment to the holding tank (under the V-berth) on my boat. This was done in 2012, so if there is an ABYC restriction in TH-29, I'm grandfathered.

The KEY to eliminating boat stink, as far as I am concerned, is to eliminate any places where effluent waste water can collect in flexible pipe.


----------



## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Funny how the white Trident 101 is more expensive that the black version of the same hose. Since looks aren't important for hidden hose runs, I use the cheaper black. Just got a 50' roll at boatersland for $6.30/ft.

Unfortunately, the hose runs on this boat do not lend themselves to PVC (lots of twist and turns through hidden inaccessible spaces). However, I plumbed our previous boat in PVC, and it was the best thing I did. I could not find a single ABYC standard against using PVC, and PVC is standard equipment on larger boats and trawlers. I doubt commercial ships are plumbed with hose.

PVC is completely impermeable to smell, can literally be replaced anywhere in the world for almost no cost, and in our experience calcification problems are much less with PVC than with hose. I found a grass hut tienda in the San Blas Islands off Panama selling Spam, potatoes, and PVC pipe. Try finding good sanitation hose there. Try finding it anywhere in Panama itself.

The movement thing is a red-herring. First, PVC is extremely flexible and resistant to cracking from flexing. Second, if one's boat is flexing that much, then there are larger issues to be dealt with.

Off topic, this is one of several years-old threads that have been brought back to life. Has Sailnet come to the point of nothing new?

Mark


----------



## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

There _has _been a lot or resurrection going on lately. Perhaps this is the first sign of the Zombie Apocalypse. Remember - you read it here first!


----------



## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

eherlihy said:


> With all due respect, I have looked through the ABYC standards as of 2016 and can find no reference to the restriction of using rigid PVC pipe in a holding tank system.
> 
> The only standard that I believe would address this is TH-29. However, because it was a new standard in 2017, updated in 2020, I don't think you were referring to this in December of 2010.
> 
> ...


When my boat was surveyed in 2001, the surveyor recommended that large diameter sections of the rigid PVC drinking water piping (the manifold between the tanks) be replaced with flexible piping and quoted the ABS Section and ANSI spec which applied. I still had an out of date set of ABS standards from when I was designing boats and looked it up and concluded that he was correct that rigid piping was not permitted at that time. I must admit that the ABS standards I was referring to would be pretty much obsolete even in 2001.

Like I said, at the time of the quoted post, the last time that I looked it up (and probably should have stipulated that I was using an out of date set of standards) and that was why I was suggesting that it should be checked .

Jeff


----------



## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Jeff_H said:


> When my boat was surveyed in 2001, the surveyor recommended that large diameter sections of the rigid PVC drinking water piping (the manifold between the tanks) be replaced with flexible piping and quoted the ABS Section and ANSI spec which applied. I still had an out of date set of ABS standards from when I was designing boats and looked it up and concluded that he was correct that rigid piping was not permitted at that time. I must admit that the ABS standards I was referring to would be pretty much obsolete even in 2001.
> 
> Like I said, at the time of the quoted post, the last time that I looked it up (and probably should have stipulated that I was using an out of date set of standards) and that was why I was suggesting that it should be checked .
> 
> Jeff


And since I have lost my access to ABYC standards, I don't know if the new standard (TH-29?) allows rigid PVC or not.


----------



## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Is it possible you and the surveyor confused the ABYC recommendations about below waterline fittings with those for self-contained system fittings? I think PVC fails the ABYC recommendations of X force for Y seconds when used as valves and fittings on seacocks and the such, where a breakage can sink the boat. Even I don't think this is a good use for PVC.  However, I don't think ABYC makes any recommendations on fresh or black water plumbing - or at least those parts that are contained within the boat itself. The worse that could happen is that you empty a tank into the bilge, and there are many ways for this to happen regardless of pipe/hose (Personally, I've had several hose failures, but no pipe or tube failures).

It would be odd for ABYC to make a recommendation for certain boats, but not others. Again, while hose is common for black water plumbing on most small boats, larger ones are not plumbed with hose. I doubt Larry Ellison's boat has 1000' of premium sanitation hose on it, but I suspect it uses PVC. And like PVC used in a house, it will never, never, never permeate and stink. Ellison's crap doesn't stink, of course - it is likely plumbed this way for his guests...

Mark


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Hose seems easier to work with...


----------



## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

SanderO said:


> Hose seems easier to work with...


See the OP. He did beautiful work with PVC. The issue that he was trying to address is that hose eventually stinks. That's the trade off; cheap, long lasting but difficult to work with, or expensive, easy to work with, BUT you will eventually have to replace it - because it stinks.


----------



## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Depends on if you think installing PVC once is harder than installing/removing hose several times over the life of a boat. I find PVC dead easy and quick to work with.

Mark


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

eherlihy said:


> See the OP. He did beautiful work with PVC. The issue that he was trying to address is that hose eventually stinks. That's the trade off; cheap, long lasting but difficult to work with, or expensive, easy to work with, BUT you will eventually have to replace it - because it stinks.


Stinks? Fresh water hose stinks? Please explain. I've read that exhaust hose from the head can hold odors after some time but never fresh water cold or hot.
So I have an outlet hose from my WC.... it's hardly a chore to replace it


----------



## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Not fresh water - black water. Head to holding tank and holding tank to pumpout. On some boats, these are long runs (the OP had a catamaran), or several heads. The two heads on our boat, for instance have 60' of sewage runs not including vent lines. This is expensive at $8-15/ft of good hose.

For fresh water, use PEX.

Mark


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

colemj said:


> Not fresh water - black water. Head to holding tank and holding tank to pumpout. On some boats, these are long runs (the OP had a catamaran), or several heads. The two heads on our boat, for instance have 60' of sewage runs not including vent lines. This is expensive at $8-15/ft of good hose.
> 
> For fresh water, use PEX.
> 
> Mark


OK... for me they are short runs and the hose is accessible. I never had odors but I replace it every few years regardless,


----------



## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Re-posting the OP, because some details seem to have been lost between page 1 and page 2;

"I wanted to share my experience replacing my sewage hose on our *Catalina 380*.
We purchased this boat used. It was only three years old, but *the head really smelled bad*. After we purchased her, most locals said that they had looked at the boat but it smelled, so moved on to look at other boats without issues. We negotiated a better price based on the head smell problem.

Now, what's the solution?
*Hose is simple to install but will have the same problem in a few years as the hose permeates with urine & sulfurous malodors over time.
Better sewage hose like a SeaLand's OdorSafe Plus sanitation hose is very expensive and gives you a few more years, but will still odor permeate.

PVC house hold pipe is cheap and will never odor permeate, but takes more time to install.*
We went with the PVC. We sold the boat after six years. Never had any plumbing problems and the boat always smelled great. The boat sold in one week.

1) This is standard PVC 1-1/2 inch house piping
2) Cut piping with a hack saw and small wooden miter box
3) Dry fit the whole system together
4) Put timing marks on each pipe and fitting with a black magic marker
5) Start at one end and glue and align your black timing marks as you put the pieces together.
6) At the toilet use a 1-1/2 coupling with a compression fitting on one side to connect to the toilet. Works great and never leaks and can be taken apart for servicing.
7) At the deck fitting I used just a short piece of hose since this will only be exposed to sewage for short periods of time.

I thought it was a good do it yourself job and will do it again on my current new boat in the near future when needed"


----------



## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

#2 is wrong. Use a PVC pipe cutter and spring for the end dresser. $10 well spent - will make the job easier, quicker, and better. Harbor Freight is fine here.

Mark


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

I suppose it depends on how much hose you need and how easy or difficult the installation is. I don't have enough hose length that the price is an issue. Please detail the actual economics... and tell me it's too expensive. 
I suppose the OP has no problem with doing a $1,500 bottom job annually but finds an amortized cost of +/- $100/ yr too expensive???


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

A combination of hose and pvc seems to make sense for long runs. Can I assume they make barbed fittings for pvc? Clamping on smooth pipe can be less than secure.

There is no good reason for flex hose to smell. It only happens if waste is left to sit in the hose and that only happens, if insufficient clear chase water is flushed. Typically, the latter is exactly how many use their black water system. I assume one of the following: too lazy to keep pumping, too used to household toilets that only need to get the waste out of sight and gravity does rest, or the holding tank isn’t large enough to accommodate the volume of chase water necessary to clear the lines. If ones waste line goes straight up to either a vented loop or raised holding tank, this can easily require a gallon per flush. Although, insufficient flushing can also cause waste to settle back against the jocker valve, which can both jam it open or cause a clog. However, even if you get the solids past the hose, any mixed brown water is what’s causing the odor. 

The only hose we have that is beginning to smell (on the hottest days) is the longest run to our central holding tank (Approx 15-20 ft). I’m certain it sags in the middle somewhere, which is exactly where we notice the faint odor now (16 years later). Trouble is, it’s very buried behind cabinetry. I’d love to re-do that run down the length, with rigid pvc. My trouble is, to do so, I would need to do some serious disassembly of cabinetry and probably have to join several sections of pvc. I could use the old hose to pull a new hose. The other two heads have so many turns and narrow passages through cutouts, flex hose is the only practical medium.

Scale is another matter. Our waste lines rise to a vented loop, behind the head. Therefore, even with sufficient clear water, it stands stagnant in that rise and calcifies. These have needed replacing along the way. It’s only ~4 ft of hose.


----------



## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Minnewaska said:


> Can I assume they make barbed fittings for pvc?


Yes, and inexpensive.



Minnewaska said:


> There is no good reason for flex hose to smell. It only happens if waste is left to sit in the hose and that only happens, if insufficient clear chase water is flushed.


Some holding tanks have bottom outlets where waste is always standing up to the height of the tank. Hose will eventually permeate regardless. Our last boat had an ideal run - straight up from the toilet 18" to a loop, straight down from that loop 24" to the top of the holding tank. No way for waste to stand in the run. After 12yrs, it was permeated and stunk.



Minnewaska said:


> Trouble is, it's very buried behind cabinetry. I'd love to re-do that run down the length, with rigid pvc. My trouble is, to do so, I would need to do some serious disassembly of cabinetry and probably have to join several sections of pvc. I could use the old hose to pull a new hose. The other two heads have so many turns and narrow passages through cutouts, flex hose is the only practical medium.
> 
> Scale is another matter. Our waste lines rise to a vented loop, behind the head. Therefore, even with sufficient clear water, it stands stagnant in that rise and calcifies. These have needed replacing along the way. It's only ~4 ft of hose.


Our current boat is like this, which is why I just spent $400 on expensive hose. There just isn't any way to use PVC, or I definitely would.

For whatever reason, we have never had scale form in PVC, while this was common with hose.

Mark


----------

