# Thoughts on upcoming Catalina 425



## night0wl (Mar 20, 2006)

Hi All,

Well, family is growing and so I'm curious about models in the >40 foot range now. I dont like the super-modern direction most production builders are going, and I especially dont like the trend toward saildrives taken by Beneteau/Jeanneau. So that leaves me with Catalina that makes a boat in my price range.

What are everyone's thoughts on the upcoming Catalina 425. While I like the dimensions and the new design direction, I am concerned about some changes/"shortcuts"

Catalina Announces New Yacht for 2016 | Cruising World

Specs/Features not behind a registration wall: http://www.captrickweiler.com/wp-content/uploads/Catalina-425-Intro-package.pdf

Yachts and boats for sale - Catalina Yachts

I'm curious about certain decisions being taken. For example, a fiberglass toe-rail? That seems like a cost cutting move rather than putting a proper aluminum toe-rail thats through bolted through the hull/deck joint.

We live in SW FLorida, so I'm going to be investigating the shoal draft, 4'11" keel. Any thoughts on that vs the 6'8" standard keel (non-starter in the waters i wish to be in).

In looking at the line drawings, I see that Catalina has copied what my 2008 Beneteau did with the prop strut...a nacelle of sorts attached to the hull rather than an exposed strut that the shaft passes through. I like this. I also like how there's no hard chines (preference vs ability here).

I like that there's a strong non-turbo Yanmar (57hp). I noticed that for like displacement, beneteau/jeanneau are cutting down the hp on their engines....making them work hard.


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## capttb (Dec 13, 2003)

> For example, a fiberglass toe-rail? That seems like a cost cutting move rather than putting a proper aluminum toe-rail thats through bolted through the hull/deck joint.


Pretty standard for Catalina, means the only place to hang fenders is from the stanchion bases. But it also means you'll never lose a toe to an Aluminum toe rail or have to refinish one of those nice looking wood ones on the French boats, and no bolt holes.
And if you like a lead keel,


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I have to admit that at least on paper that is the one of the most appealing new designs that I have seen from a major manufacturer in a long time. While it would be easy to nitpick some of the details, and there is not much information about the lines of the boat, to my eye this is a very impressive boat that appears to be a major step up from earlier Catalinas that I have known. The things that I like are the L/D = 130 which is light enough to provide decent performance while also heavy enough to allow decent carrying capacity. Solid ballast ratio for a bulb keel. Adequate SA/D to be able to get by without large overlapping jibs. Fractional rig (although I suspect too stiff a spar to do much with mast bend and the stock spar is in-mast furling which would screw up the advantages of a fractional rig). Moderate beam, fine bow and moderate transom width by modern standards. If I understand their "T-Beam" mast support this is a moment connected mast base which would provide all of the advantages of a keel stepped mast with all of the advantages of a deck stepped mast (which is something that I have advocated for decades.) 

If the execution is as good as the basic design appears to be, this could turn out to be one heck of a great boat.

Jeff


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Nobody is really doing aluminum toerails anymore.. and that's a shame (not only for the structural reasons) One of the things our friends currently cruising a Bene 36.7 in the Caribbean lament is the lack of a decent toerail. Cost and, I suppose, assembly time are the likely major reason for this migration away from that very handy feature.


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## capttb (Dec 13, 2003)

> that appears to be a major step up from earlier Catalinas that I have known.


Ouch, I can only hope you've never known my "earlier" 320.
FWIW I "tailgated" one of those new bene's for a mile one day so I could watch how those hard chines and two short angled rudders work, pretty interesting.


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## robert sailor (Jun 22, 2015)

Personally chines on cruising boats are all about marketing with some additional space but little to no performance difference. Twin rudders on the other hand do work better with pizza boats with really wide beam carried aft. They have some downsides as well such as needing more speed to change direction in marinas and being fully exposed at sea without a keel in front of them.


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## IStream (Dec 15, 2013)

The 42 and its MkII successor both had fiberglass toerails so from that perspective there's nothing lost. That said, it'd be nice if they offered one as an option.


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## night0wl (Mar 20, 2006)

IStream said:


> The 42 and its MkII successor both had fiberglass toerails so from that perspective there's nothing lost. That said, it'd be nice if they offered one as an option.


Holy cow, you're right! I just checked google images, and apparently the 42 MKII did have fiberglass toe rails. That being said, the rest of the "5" series from Catalina have aluminum toerails.

Is it possible that catalina is using the same deck mold for this new boat???? Very interesting design decision.


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## kwaltersmi (Aug 14, 2006)

capttb said:


> Pretty standard for Catalina, means the only place to hang fenders is from the stanchion bases. But it also means you'll never lose a toe to an Aluminum toe rail or have to refinish one of those nice looking wood ones on the French boats, and no bolt holes.


My previous boat had an aluminum toe rail. I loved it for the almost unlimited options for attaching lines, fenders, snatch blocks, etc. but it leaked like a sieve. I think I'd prefer fiberglass and less holes in the deck. And you can always attached fenders to the midship cleat or a cleat on the genoa car track.

To my eye, both aesthetically and from a design perspective, the 425 looks like a 7/8ths 445.

Lots of design and construction details from Gerry Douglas here:


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## robert sailor (Jun 22, 2015)

I can't tell from the images, did they change their hull to deck joint back to that shoe box detail?


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## Scotty C-M (Aug 14, 2013)

Good question, Robert, about the deck-hull joint.  It looks to be the overlapping flange system, but I'm not sure.
Catalina Closer Look

I have to admit to a great fondness for the Catalina line of boats; I've owned a 30, a 34 and now a 400MKII. Catalina makes very good boats, in my opinion. This is the first new Catalina that gives me serious boat envy. It has so much to offer. This is a true fast sailing, blue water, modern classic. Good thing that I've got limits, otherwise my wife and I would be having a serious conversation tonight. 
NightOwl, I've had some comparisons of full keel to wing. Yes, the full keels point better and are stiffer, but not enough to make it a problem. If I were on the right coast, I'd get the wing. Here on the left coast, I'm happy with the full keel. If you buy one of these boats, be ready for a lot of friends wanting to go sailing with you! Two thumbs up on this boat.


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

Get the 425... I'll take your 400... swap you for a highly used S2!


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## robert sailor (Jun 22, 2015)

We called it the shoe box which is OK but not as strong as the internal flange


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

It looks like Catalina is using an internal flange on the 425, which would seem like the way to go. The other hull to decks are called out as being used on their smaller models. The write up says that they are using 5200 and bolts, while I seem to recall that the video mentioned a higher tech adhesive. They do not say how the buikheads are being installed.


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## robert sailor (Jun 22, 2015)

The good news is that Catalina looks like it has a very able competitor to the French builders, there is lots to like on this new model.


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## chris95040 (Sep 26, 2008)

Jeff_H said:


> If I understand their "T-Beam" mast support this is a moment connected mast base which would provide all of the advantages of a keel stepped mast with all of the advantages of a deck stepped mast (which is something that I have advocated for decades.)


Hi Jeff,

Would you mind explaining that a bit? Do you suppose this is a deck-stepped mast, with a rigid attachment to the mast step?

I understand the attachments ("end fixity") of a column play a big part in how it will ultimately buckle (and this is why, somewhat non-intuitivity, many keel-stepped masts can be made of a smaller section than a deck-stepped mast reaching the same height over deck).

Now, I could just be misinterpreting this since I don't really know what catalina's T-beam thing is. But while some secure pinning of a deck-stepped mast may give you the benefits of a keel-stepped mast in terms of end-fixity, I wonder if its a bit overstated to claim "all the advantages of a keel stepped mast".

The ruggedness of a keel-stepped mast is something I often wish for. Being supported both at the deck and at the keel, in my uninformed opinion, seems to make it less likely you'd lose your rig when a shroud parts....


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## night0wl (Mar 20, 2006)

robert sailor said:


> The good news is that Catalina looks like it has a very able competitor to the French builders, there is lots to like on this new model.


In principle, nothing wrong with the french builders. I own a Beneteau. She was actually built in Marion SC. So while the design may be a French person, the people that constructed it were all here in the USA. Likely so were the suppliers of the resin and the labor to put it to gether. The components inside...well likely another story. Lewmar builds/sources globally.

Catalina uses Schaeffer for everything and I think they make everything in the USA.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

chris95040 said:


> Hi Jeff,
> 
> Would you mind explaining that a bit? Do you suppose this is a deck-stepped mast, with a rigid attachment to the mast step?
> 
> ...


I am not perfectly clear on what Catalina means by a T-Beam. What it looks like in their sketch is that there is a stiff jackpost with a flange welded onto the top of the post so that the plate sits just above the deck. If I understood the schematic it also appeared that the mast has a welded flange on the bottom of it as well, and that the two flanges are bolted together so that bending moment could be passed through the joint and that the section of the jackpost between the keel and the deck is in bending and acts as an extra panel of the mast.

To cut to the chase, in my mind this provides the advantage of a keel stepped mast in terms of added stiffness, and if you were to lose the upper part of the mast, the bottom of the mast might still remain standing which might allow you to jury rig something.

The advantages of a keel stepped mast is that you don't have water down below, and if you lose the mast you can jettison it if it threatens to punch a hole in the boat. In this case you have some bolts to undo. It is also easier to remove and reset.

Below are my thoughts in more detail from an article that I wrote for a different purpose.

Jeff

I personally strongly prefer a deck-stepped mast over a keel stepped mast but once again this is an area where opinions can differ widely. There is no right answer here. There is a contingent that thinks that the only proper way to step a mast is on the keel. There is a logic to that opinion but it is a logic that can be engineered around and which comes out of a historical context that is less relevant with modern materials and design approaches.

I would like to start this discussion with the structural basics, the base of a mast has a vertical and horizontal thrust to it that tries to push it down through the bottom of the boat and also sideward off of the mast step. In normal conditions the down load is several times greater than the side load. Beyond the loads imparted to the boat, there is also the issue of the loads that happen internally in a mast. When you look at the structure of a mast it is really a truss standing on end but it does not completely act as truss because the components of a truss are not supposed to have bending loads on them. Ideally the loads in the mast are primarily axial (acting along the length of the mast) rather than in bending (acting perpendicular to the long axis of the mast). But because of the continuous attachment of mainsails and the point loadings of intermediate control lines like vangs, pole lifts and the like, masts do have fairly large bending loads imparted into them. The two most often cited reasons for keel stepped masts being considered stronger is the way that the bending loads (moments) are distributed within the mast itself and the way that the mast imparts its loads into the boat.

One of the goals in designing a mast is to create a configuration that, within reason, reduces the size of the bending moments within a mast. In a general sense, the greater the number of panels (segments between shrouds and other supports) the smaller the moments within the mast would tend to be. In the days when single spreader rigs were most common a keel-stepped mast added one extra panel, the segment between the mast partners at the deck and the keel. This has become less significant as bigger boats have routinely gone to multiple spreader rigs (adding more panels above the deck) and to a lesser extent as moment connections at the deck are being employed on deck mounted mast steps.

In terms of the way that the mast imparts its loads into the boat, masts are generally located in the area of the cabin trunk and because of the shape of the cabin (i.e. the deck folds up at the cabin side and horizontal again at the coach roof) this area, if the deck is not engineered for side loads it is more prone to lateral flexing than would be the keel. One idea behind a keel-stepped mast being stronger is that with a keel stepped the mast is not superimposing loads into the deck.

In reality, this ideal is rarely accomplished for a number of reasons. First of all, if the mast is not tied to the deck or the deck tied to the keel near the mast, either with a tie rod or with a tie from the mast to the deck and a connection from the mast to the keel, the downward force of the mast working in opposition to the upward loads of the shrouds can pull the hull together like a bow and arrow lifting the deck and separating the joint between bulkheads and the deck. You sometimes see this type of separated bulkheads on inexpensive or early fiberglass boats with keel stepped masts.

Not only do keel stepped masts impart vertical loads into the deck (through the ties mentioned above) but they also typically end up imparting side loads as well (they must if they are going to reduce the moments in the mast as mentioned above). This added side load when combined with the multiple panels above deck greatly reduces the structural advantages of a keel-stepped mast to next to zero assuming that a deck-stepped mast is properly engineered, and of course that is a big 'if'!

There are several things that I consider critical to engineering a deck stepped mast properly. Primary is having a properly engineered jack post below the mast to take the vertical loads of the mast. (A jack post is a vertical member that carries the vertical loads of the mast to the keel.) My preference is to have an aluminum jack post rather than a wooden one but a wooden post can work as well. My preference would also be to design the jack post, mast foot and mast step to create a moment connection between the base of the mast and the top of the jack post, so that the jack post could still act as an extra mast panel. Then the deck and interior structure need to be designed to distribute side loads. Ideally, there should be a bulkhead or ring frame adjacent to the mast that can take the side loads and distribute them into the hull. These elements are obviously more complex to engineer and build properly than simply having a fat spot on the keel for the mast step to land on.

My biggest objections to keel stepped masts are to the purely practical. Keel stepped masts with internal halyards mean that there is always water in the bilge. This water comes in at halyard boxes and other openings in the mast and there really is nothing you can do will stop that. Second, it is way harder to step and un-step a keel-stepped mast making the boat more subject to damage in the process. Beyond that if you lose a mast (I have lost two in my life) it is better in my opinion to lose a deck stepped mast because a keel-stepped mast is more likely to damage the deck when it fails and a deck-stepped mast is easier to clear away. The keel stepped mast for offshore use advocates point out that if you lose a keel stepped mast you are more likely to end up with a bigger stump after the mast fails. I am not sure that that is always the case. For example with a deck stepped mast there are cases where you are able to tow the rig as a drogue until things quiet down enough to rig a jury rig. I am not sure what you do when the boat is being beaten to death by the upper portion of a mast that has buckled 20 feet off the deck at the spreaders. .

As mentioned above, my preferred set up is a deck stepped mast that has a welded flange on its bottom that is through bolted through the deck into the top flange of a structural aluminum jack post. If the mast buckles it can be unbolted and jettisoned, or kept up partially by the moment connection at its base. My current boat has a keel stepped mast. It is my intent to pull this mast and have it modified to that arrangement if I ever go offshore with her.


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## Yamsailor (Jun 7, 2006)

I will most likely be purchasing a new boat within the next year or two and this boat is on my list to check out. I want to see the boat before I make any decisions. 

One of the concerns I have is storage. In the cockpit the port side settee opens in to the port side aft cabin via gull wing; The starboard side settee is large enough to use as a bunk. Are they any lockers in the cockpit to store fenders, lines and other stuff?


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

> I noticed that for like displacement, beneteau/jeanneau are cutting down the hp on their engines....making them work hard.


Maybe not such a bad thing for the health of a diesel.


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## robert sailor (Jun 22, 2015)

Installing smaller engines has everything to do with lowering costs and nothing to do with being better for the diesel engine.


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## Scotty C-M (Aug 14, 2013)

I agree with Robert that there are significant engine decisions based on price. However, I am sure, based on my personal experience, that the 57 Hp. engine is very robust and appripriate for this boat. My 400 has a 56 Hp. Yanmar, and I am very satisfied with it. One of the reasons I like Catalinas so much is that over the years I've seen that they make improvements on existing models. They keep what works, and look for improvements. As an example, the water-tight bulkhead at the bow section is a great improvement, as is the two anchor design of the anchor locker, or the improved stern locker. Yet they keep the basic design that so many of us like. Examples are the lead keel, winch placements, wide side decks, interior accommodations, etc. I think that Catalina is an example of a company that stays financially healthy by offering high value for reasonable price, coupled with improvements to the design that still appeal to a modern core market. A guy like myself, who is very satisfied with my current boat would consider buying a 425! By the way, that consideration lasted about 20 seconds - 
.. ……,,…,, …,, …,,, ..,, ..,, …,, …,, …… ..,… ,,,…,,.. ..,,,,, .,, ….. ,. .,,,,,,,,. ... :devil :2 boat:


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## robert sailor (Jun 22, 2015)

Certainly agree that 57 hp is plenty for the 425, just about right I would say.


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## Yamsailor (Jun 7, 2006)

I would love to see an options sheet for this boat. It looks very well thought out.


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## night0wl (Mar 20, 2006)

Yamsailor said:


> I would love to see an options sheet for this boat. It looks very well thought out.


Posted it earlier: http://www.captrickweiler.com/wp-content/uploads/Catalina-425-Intro-package.pdf


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## Scotty C-M (Aug 14, 2013)

Maybe I'll just print out the brochure, with the extras price sheet, and leave it on my wife's desk tonight. … Maybe I'll sleep on the sofa too.
…………………………………………………………………………………...:Luxury:


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Scotty C-M said:


> Maybe I'll just print out the brochure, with the extras price sheet, and leave it on my wife's desk tonight. &#8230; Maybe I'll sleep on the sofa too.
> &#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;...:Luxury:


How comfortable was the sofa? or did you get the front seat of the car?

Marty


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## Yamsailor (Jun 7, 2006)

The end of the price sheet says 23% dealer discount. What does that mean?



night0wl said:


> Posted it earlier: http://www.captrickweiler.com/wp-content/uploads/Catalina-425-Intro-package.pdf


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## night0wl (Mar 20, 2006)

Yamsailor said:


> The end of the price sheet says 23% dealer discount. What does that mean?


no clue...i was wondering that myself!


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## Yamsailor (Jun 7, 2006)

I don't see any place to store charts and plotting tools. I also wonder where the VHF Radio will be mounted.


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## NCC320 (Dec 23, 2008)

Yamsailor said:


> The end of the price sheet says 23% dealer discount. What does that mean?


Maybe that 23% was a number that shouldn't have gotten out. My guess is that it is the dealer mark-up (i.e dealer cost is list price less 23%).. However, when you go to negotiate, you know what numbers dealer is working against, so that is useful buyer information to be used in negotiating a final price.


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## night0wl (Mar 20, 2006)

NCC320 said:


> Maybe that 23% was a number that shouldn't have gotten out. My guess is that it is the dealer mark-up (i.e dealer cost is list price less 23%).. However, when you go to negotiate, you know what numbers dealer is working against, so that is useful buyer information to be used in negotiating a final price.


To be honest, I've seen that price sheet with the 23% discount mentioned on a couple of dealer sites/communications. Its the worst kept secret for Catalina Yachts. Makes me feel as if there's more to discount than that!


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## Yamsailor (Jun 7, 2006)

Any word when Hull #1 is coming off the line?


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## IStream (Dec 15, 2013)

night0wl said:


> To be honest, I've seen that price sheet with the 23% discount mentioned on a couple of dealer sites/communications. Its the worst kept secret for Catalina Yachts. Makes me feel as if there's more to discount than that!


It may be intentional on Catalina's part. The dealers are independent entities and have their own motivations. I used to work for a company that sold direct but had independent dealers outside of the US. We offered our dealers a 25% wholesale discount and "politely suggested" that they not sell our goods at more than 10% above our US list price in their local currency. After years of disproportionately low sales volumes outside the US due to nosebleed pricing by our dealers, we finally started publishing our US list prices in the ads ("starting at $XXX,XXX"). This gave our international customers some visibility on our intended prices, which they used in negotiating with their dealers. The dealers weren't happy about it but they did fall in line and our sales volumes went way up. As our VP of Sales liked to say, "If none of us get greedy, we'll all get rich."


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## night0wl (Mar 20, 2006)

Yamsailor said:


> Any word when Hull #1 is coming off the line?


I think Hull #1 is off the line and spoken for (sold).


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## night0wl (Mar 20, 2006)

IStream said:


> It may be intentional on Catalina's part. The dealers are independent entities and have their own motivations. I used to work for a company that sold direct but had independent dealers outside of the US. We offered our dealers a 25% wholesale discount and "politely suggested" that they not sell our goods at more than 10% above our US list price in their local currency. After years of disproportionately low sales volumes outside the US due to nosebleed pricing by our dealers, we finally started publishing our US list prices in the ads ("starting at $XXX,XXX"). This gave our international customers some visibility on our intended prices, which they used in negotiating with their dealers. The dealers weren't happy about it but they did fall in line and our sales volumes went way up. As our VP of Sales liked to say, "If none of us get greedy, we'll all get rich."


So I'm a bit confused...are you suggesting that boats sell above list price. I see those prices (even with options) as a starting point for negotiation.


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## jackdaw (Nov 21, 2010)

night0wl said:


> I think Hull #1 is off the line and spoken for (sold).


I doubt they will build a single one of these that is not spoken for.


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## Yamsailor (Jun 7, 2006)

Hull #1 is being fitted out--according to Catalina's Facebook page.



night0wl said:


> I think Hull #1 is off the line and spoken for (sold).


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Some chuckleheads out there will definitely have a problem with this...



> All systems are designed following the recommendations and standards of the ABYC and IMCI to earn the highest rating of Category A - Unlimited Offshore.


Very impressive for a production boat. But then you also have this...



> The suggested base price of a Catalina 425 is $262,900 with electronics and sails.


Even more impressive.

This looks like a big, confident leap for Catalina. I'm impressed.


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## Yamsailor (Jun 7, 2006)

Catalina 425, Hull #1. Picture from Catalina Yachts Facebook Page.


This is one pretty boat.


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## Yamsailor (Jun 7, 2006)

Found some more pictures of the new Catalina 425. One of the major concerns I have is storage. It appears, most of the starboard side cabinets are filled with electrical controls that traditionally are stacked in the area of a nav station. This could be a major problem for me. Seems like there is little room for storing provisions, books, and equipment.

Thoughts?

https://www.boats.com/sailing-boats/2016-catalina-425-5413890/#.V077TE3VxMw


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## IStream (Dec 15, 2013)

I like a lot of the functionality of this design but can't say I'm a fan of the interior aesthetics. It looks like Catalina is trying to out-Jeanneau Jeanneau. Lots of sharp edges that won't wear well, doors and covers over panels that serve no purpose other than to conceal, no opening ports, tapered fixed lights, a bowl sink, etc. I would trad all that stuff for an aluminum toerail and some opening ports.


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## Yamsailor (Jun 7, 2006)

The boat does have opening ports. I have seen them in the pictures of Hull #1. My inquiry is to storage.



IStream said:


> I like a lot of the functionality of this design but can't say I'm a fan of the interior aesthetics. It looks like Catalina is trying to out-Jeanneau Jeanneau. Lots of sharp edges that won't wear well, doors and covers over panels that serve no purpose other than to conceal, no opening ports, tapered fixed lights, a bowl sink, etc. I would trad all that stuff for an aluminum toerail and some opening ports.


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## robert sailor (Jun 22, 2015)

Good storage costs money and it's missing from all the more affordable new boats. It's all about sight lines and open spaces and large heads, women are making lots of the buying decisions these days.


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## IStream (Dec 15, 2013)

Yamsailor said:


> The boat does have opening ports. I have seen them in the pictures of Hull #1. My inquiry is to storage.


I just went over to Catalina's FB page and now see the opening ports, one behind the deadlights and two forward on each side for a total of six that I can see, plus three hatches. Still not much for a boat this size. By way of comparison, the C50 has 20 opening ports and 11 hatches in the salon/cabins/heads plus two more hatches in the forward cabin. Yes, it's a bigger boat but not that much bigger and it's got three times the ventilation.

I applaud Catalina for moving in a new direction but I suspect their famous attention to customer feedback is going to result in a 425 MkII sooner rather than later.


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## Yamsailor (Jun 7, 2006)

You are not the first one to say this to me. My wife is actually concerned about the lack of storage.



robert sailor said:


> Good storage costs money and it's missing from all the more affordable new boats. It's all about sight lines and open spaces and large heads, women are making lots of the buying decisions these days.


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## Scotty C-M (Aug 14, 2013)

I find this boat to be very interesting. In regards to storage, yes, the starboard cabinets have a lot of space used by electronics. One locker is still unused. These lockers, on my boat, are less desirable because to get to them you have to cross over the table. There is also a lot of storage available on the 425 using the stern "flex" cabin, which is also open to the cockpit. There is a lot of space there. In addition, Catalinas have a pretty typical arrangement of lockers, drawers, under seat bins, etc. A lot of people who own Catalina 400s have increased storage space by accessing spaces, adding shelving and cabinets. Specific examples are found on the Yahoo users site. I'm sure that the 425 can be customized to fit the owners needs.

In regard to the hatches, My boat with similar hatches has very good ventilation. Too many hatches can leave little room for walking, and yes, they do (sometimes) leak.

I'm glad that Catalina pays attentions to sight lines and open spaces- in additoion to parameters of sailing, safety and all the other design aspects. I know that there is a school of thought that considers a narrow cabin to be safer in a blow. I disagree. My reasoning is that when the boat is moving around, you better hold on or wedge (or belt) yourself in. I can do that just as well in my Catalina as I can in my friends Swan, or other traditional boats. In all of those boats you can't let yourself get thrown around either in a large cabin or in a small one. Good lee cloths and lots of handholds make a larger cabin as safe as a cramped one. That is the case on my boat. I'm not saying that a larger cabin is safer, but that you have to be equally careful in both. 

But in most instances, the larger cabin will be more comfortable than the small one. Again, I am much more comfortable in my larger cabin. That is an important consideration for me. Your boat, your choice (my boat, my choice). I haven't found the heads on the modern Catalinas to be particularly large. Then again, I do use my forward head for additional storage. I'm also glad that women are making lots of buying decisions these days. I've found that my wife is a smart shopper in many ways, and she does really like our boat. She and I decided together to buy our boat. That is a good thing.


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## chuck5499 (Aug 31, 2003)

Skimmed the posting and never saw this -- what are you going to do with the boat? Are you going to sit at the dock and drink wine and watch the sunset or go to the Bahamas or sail to the Med? it makes a difference - not all boats are created equally - the founding fathers left that out of the Constitution on purpose -- We have sailed the east coast of the USA and Bahamas and saw a lot of Catalinas but once in the Western Caribbean we did not see one nor do we remember seeing any in the eastern Caribbean although there may have been some - we have not to our knowledge seen any in the Med and now in the Black Sea we have not seen any - but then we have not seen any sailboats at all in the Black Sea. -- 

We sail a Jeanneau and love her - she is tough and durable and makes sailing for us old folks a pleasure


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## robert sailor (Jun 22, 2015)

Chuck, I don't think we saw any Catalina boats in the Med either but Catalinas are not made in Europe like your brand. We also only saw one IP yet there are hundreds in the Caribbean. We did see some Catalinas in the South Pacific so they do get around. There are sure a lot on the West Coast. I see your staying in our old haunt, Kusadasi, very cool place to hang out. We did a ton of land travel from there, Turkey is still our favorite country.


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## chuck5499 (Aug 31, 2003)

robert sailor said:


> Chuck, I don't think we saw any Catalina boats in the Med either but Catalinas are not made in Europe like your brand. We also only saw one IP yet there are hundreds in the Caribbean. We did see some Catalinas in the South Pacific so they do get around. There are sure a lot on the West Coast. I see your staying in our old haunt, Kusadasi, very cool place to hang out. We did a ton of land travel from there, Turkey is still our favorite country.


Robert we actually bought SoulMates in the USA and sailed her across and we saw a number of Jeanneaus in the Caribbean and of course now in the Med - We have not seen any in the Black Sea then again we have not seen any sailboats in the Black Sea

As for the question I asked - what is the OP really planning to do with the boat and is it capable - I will admit that i am prejudice about Catalinas - but will it do the job he will be asking it to do?

As for Kusadasi - oh yea it is a very special place. We had great repair work done there last spring in prep for this trip and could not be happier with the results. We like it so much that we are going to spend this coming winter there as well -- we simply love the town the people and all it has to offer --


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## robert sailor (Jun 22, 2015)

Personally I don't see much difference in construction methods in most of the new boats these days. Liners and glued in bulkheads are the norm. Hulls, first layer is vinylester resin and polyester for all the rest. Catalina does use lead keels which is an upgrade over iron so I don't know, pretty similar to the French boats but maybe you know something I don't? 
I don't imagine you'll be seeing many if any cruising boats in the Black Sea. Some friends cruised up there but we were on a time line so gave it a pass, could be interesting. Say hi to our friend Putin . We are going to fly back to Kusadasi and use it as a base for more traveling over there, we really liked it. Sounds like you guys are having fun, congratulations on getting over there on your own bottom. 4 out of 5 of our American friends we met there had their boats shipped.


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## Yamsailor (Jun 7, 2006)

Spoke to the owner of Hull #1. He upgraded from a Catalina 380. Sounds like the boat is laid out well. I was told he had concerns about storage however he said there is massive amounts of bin storage through out the yacht. It ill be interesting to see how many are purchased and at what price point. The equivalent Jeaneau appears to be at least $25,000 less than the Catalina 425; The Jeanneau 449 hull is 1 foot longer however Catalina uses lead keels.


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## Yamsailor (Jun 7, 2006)

I recently found out the hull is solid glass only below the waterline. Above the waterline the hull is a sandwich with an end-grain balsa core. Anyone have thoughts on a hull that is not all glass?


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## IStream (Dec 15, 2013)

That's pretty standard construction technique. As long as the penetrations of the deck are made in solid glass, there's basically no down side and plenty of upside to the technique. Most builders eliminate the core from areas where hatches, winches, and other factory-mounted hardware that penetrates the outer skin will reside. If you want to mount something in the cored area, best practice is to overdrill the mounting holes by at least ~1/4" on all sides, fill with epoxy, re-drill to the final size, countersink, apply sealant to the fastener area (which will fill the countersink to form a gasket), and screw/bolt the item down.


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## IStream (Dec 15, 2013)

I should mention that slightly more difficult but arguably better version of the above is to drill the deck for the fastener clearance, completely remove the core material for ~1/4" around the perimeter of the hole with a bent nail or the like chucked into a drill, and then do the epoxy thing. The epoxy plug will then adhere both to the inner edge and the inner face of the glass skins as opposed to just the inner edge of the skins. You just need to make sure the epoxy completely fills the void where you dug out the core. That's not hard to achieve on a ~level part of the deck, a little trickier on a steeply sloped part.


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## jwing (Jun 20, 2013)

IStream said:


> ... You just need to make sure the epoxy completely fills the void where you dug out the core. That's not hard to achieve on a ~level part of the deck, a little trickier on a steeply sloped part...


I'm not an epoxy expert, but I think that I've had success with epoxy putty. While it's still malleable, it can be jammed into any spot that has been dug out of the core. It will stay put, regardless of the slope angle. After it kicks, it is hard and it can be drilled and countersunk as described.

Is there a downside to using epoxy putty?


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## IStream (Dec 15, 2013)

The epoxy serves two purposes, one is to prevent water intrusion into the core and the other is to bear compression loads from the fasteners holding down the winch or whatever it is you're mounting. I'm a big fan of epoxy putty and keep it in my toolbox for all sorts of things. I'm sure putty can bear the compression loads but it needs to bond well with the existing glass (and ideally the core too) to prevent water intrusion. Thickened epoxy will wet out the existing glass and core well. I'm not sure that putty can be relied on to do so.


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

One step not mentioned is to fill with thinned epoxy to soak into the core as much as possible then pull it out and fill with thickened to fill. Pretty time consuming process and any of these steps is better than none.


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## chuck5499 (Aug 31, 2003)

robert sailor said:


> Personally I don't see much difference in construction methods in most of the new boats these days. Liners and glued in bulkheads are the norm. Hulls, first layer is vinylester resin and polyester for all the rest. Catalina does use lead keels which is an upgrade over iron so I don't know, pretty similar to the French boats but maybe you know something I don't?
> I don't imagine you'll be seeing many if any cruising boats in the Black Sea. Some friends cruised up there but we were on a time line so gave it a pass, could be interesting. Say hi to our friend Putin . We are going to fly back to Kusadasi and use it as a base for more traveling over there, we really liked it. Sounds like you guys are having fun, congratulations on getting over there on your own bottom. 4 out of 5 of our American friends we met there had their boats shipped.


Thanks -- we should be in Kusadasi in say Oct 15 or so - we just made Balchik Bulgaria and still have a bit to go - and depends on once out of the Black Sea if we head straight down or skip though a few Greek Islands we missed - 
See you in Kusadasi


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## Yamsailor (Jun 7, 2006)

OK, I heard from Catalina. The deck on the new 425 uses Carbon Core not end grain balsa.

Carbon-Core Marine Applications | Lightweight Composite Honeycomb Core Materials and Structures

Catalina stated on their facebook page all the attachment points on the deck are solid glass.

Catalina says through hulls are all glass so the end grain balsa is not subject to water intrusion.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Looks like a great boat. Is there any ventilation beyond the two deck hatches?


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## Yamsailor (Jun 7, 2006)

outbound said:


> Looks like a great boat. Is there any ventilation beyond the two deck hatches?


I had a thorough look at the new Catalina 425 at the Annapolis Boat Show. All I can say is..WOW!!!! I think the Catalina team really hit it out of the park with this one. There is plenty of ventilation. The boat has a low profile resulting in tons of on-deck space. Great side decks. Cockpit and lines are all layed out well. I spoke with Gerry Douglass, he is designing a fold down swim platform for the stern as an addition to the boat. Galley storage is not huge but there is a ton of bin storage. While no boat is perfect, I really like the mix of traditional and modern features. My wife and I are planning to purchase one within a year.


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## BryceGTX (Sep 7, 2011)

I agree the 425 is a quite impressive 42. Hard not to like this one. Classic Catalina.. Excellent headroom below. Center line berth/head identical to 445 with a bit more head room over the berth on the 425.

Aft stateroom a bit smaller than the 445. Salon and galley laid out much like the 445 and similar size.

Engine.. Generator.. Water heater unparalleled access. Hull design for performance, but reasonable weight coming in at 19,000.

Deck is low profile, but high freeboard brings the overal deck height back up. Large cockpit, twin wheels. Wide decks.. Nice anchor locker with twin sections.

425 on the left, 385 middle, 445 on the right
Bryce


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## chuck5499 (Aug 31, 2003)

chuck5499 said:


> Thanks -- we should be in Kusadasi in say Oct 15 or so - we just made Balchik Bulgaria and still have a bit to go - and depends on once out of the Black Sea if we head straight down or skip though a few Greek Islands we missed -
> See you in Kusadasi


Well it is now Oct 12 and we are still in the Black Sea -- ran into a Tall Ship regatta in Varna so stayed and got caught in the weather - waiting weather now -- Maybe out this afternoon but looks like tomorrow for the 100nm run to Istanbul and wait for more weather - this is not the place to be in Oct - into Kusadasi? I have no idea right now

As for those who looked at the boat show and got wowed by the looks and the wife loves it -- I will ask again - what are you going to do with it -- pretty boats are nice but is it going to be built to specs you need for what you plan to do with the boat - - simple question as again not all boats are created equal


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## BryceGTX (Sep 7, 2011)

chuck5499 said:


> As for those who looked at the boat show and got wowed by the looks and the wife loves it -- I will ask again - what are you going to do with it -- pretty boats are nice but is it going to be built to specs you need for what you plan to do with the boat - - simple question as again not all boats are created equal


I have yet to see a boat yet that meets my requirements.. So what's your point?

Perhaps you just need to take a look at it.:nerd
Bryce


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## Yamsailor (Jun 7, 2006)

BryceGTX said:


> I have yet to see a boat yet that meets my requirements.. So what's your point?
> 
> Perhaps you just need to take a look at it.:nerd
> Bryce


I sail in the Chesapeake Bay. The boat is built for Coastal Cruising. So the boat is "speced" for my needs.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

chuck5499 said:


> ...As for those who looked at the boat show and got wowed by the looks and the wife loves it -- I will ask again - what are you going to do with it -- pretty boats are nice but is it going to be built to specs you need for what you plan to do with the boat - - simple question as again not all boats are created equal


Not sure your skepticism is warranted for this particular boat. A brand new Catalina 425 is not going to be a newbie's first boat. Virtually every potential buyer is going to have some experience, and thus they will have a pretty good idea what they want to do with it. Catalina makes a great coastal cruiser with lots of creature comforts and decent (but not stellar) performance. They manufacture to a price point, but they hit the right balance of economy vs. build quality/design for many people. Would you want to cross oceans in one? Probably not - there are better boats for that. But true bluewater boats come with other compromises that make them less suitable for coastal cruising.

It's a truism that not all boats are created equal. But no single boat is better for every conceivable use, either.


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## Yamsailor (Jun 7, 2006)

TakeFive said:


> Not sure your skepticism is warranted for this particular boat. A brand new Catalina 425 is not going to be a newbie's first boat. Virtually every potential buyer is going to have some experience, and thus they will have a pretty good idea what they want to do with it. Catalina makes a great coastal cruiser with lots of creature comforts and decent (but not stellar) performance. They manufacture to a price point, but they hit the right balance of economy vs. build quality/design for many people. Would you want to cross oceans in one? Probably not - there are better boats for that. But true bluewater boats come with other compromises that make them less suitable for coastal cruising.
> 
> It's a truism that not all boats are created equal. But no single boat is better for every conceivable use, either.


Well said.


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## chuck5499 (Aug 31, 2003)

TakeFive said:


> Not sure your skepticism is warranted for this particular boat. A brand new Catalina 425 is not going to be a newbie's first boat. Virtually every potential buyer is going to have some experience, and thus they will have a pretty good idea what they want to do with it. Catalina makes a great coastal cruiser with lots of creature comforts and decent (but not stellar) performance. They manufacture to a price point, but they hit the right balance of economy vs. build quality/design for many people. Would you want to cross oceans in one? Probably not - there are better boats for that. But true bluewater boats come with other compromises that make them less suitable for coastal cruising.
> 
> It's a truism that not all boats are created equal. But no single boat is better for every conceivable use, either.


Not being skeptical about this boat or any boat. What I am saying is you go to a boat show and see the whiz bang and the wife loves the galley and gee it is just what we want - but the question is to do what with - we have been there until we got a broker who taught us how to look past the whiz bang to what actually make a boat - how is it put together - what makes it a good boat and how to compare boats and make tradeoffs -

Just like a man or woman looking at the opposite and wow that looks good until you get to know them and find out all the flaws - some folks want to look at the cosmetics and not the inside -

So if you are going to day sail in protected waters you want one boat - if you want to do more a different boat -

By the way when we bought SoulMates - the only boat we have ever owned - a Jeanneau DS40 - in 2003 - we wanted a boat to get us to Bahamas and back and if we did not like it - cruising that is - we had a boat that would sell quickly - need less to say we have slightly exceeded the Bahamas but when we bought we said yea it looks nice but let's see how she is made and how strong she is - what makes her the boat she is -

That is all we are saying


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## robert sailor (Jun 22, 2015)

chuck5499 said:


> Not being skeptical about this boat or any boat. What I am saying is you go to a boat show and see the whiz bang and the wife loves the galley and gee it is just what we want - but the question is to do what with - we have been there until we got a broker who taught us how to look past the whiz bang to what actually make a boat - how is it put together - what makes it a good boat and how to compare boats and make tradeoffs -
> 
> Just like a man or woman looking at the opposite and wow that looks good until you get to know them and find out all the flaws - some folks want to look at the cosmetics and not the inside -
> 
> ...


Catalina's in this size range are equal to or exceed the build quality of the high production French boats. None of these boats come out of the factory ready for blue water sailing however like you have found with a little upgrading here and there they can get the job done, may not be ideal or as good as a higher quality purposely designed and built boat but not every one can afford those choices. In this case the prospective buyer is looking for a good coastal cruiser and I think the Catalina 425 would be a great choice. The company has a long tradition of building high value boats and providing very good customer service. They tend to keep a model in production for many years and continue to improve it, this has helped in their depreciation although we all know sailboats no matter who the builder are not investments.


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## BryceGTX (Sep 7, 2011)

These are all excellent points Robert and Take 5.

For me, the delineating line for costal/blue water is a bit fuzzy. We have put over 20K miles on our Catalina 400 in the last 6 years. We have just completed a one year trip that included the great loop and about 2 months running all through the Bahamas. With numerous off shore runs between 100 and 200 miles at 20-30 miles off shore. And the numerous hops in the Bahamas. One 400 mile hop across the Gulf getting 150 miles off shore.

Never felt uncomfortable in the 10-20 foot waves in the ocean or the 40 knot winds. Talking to Gerry Douglas who designed our boat, he said our boat was designed to go anywhere on the planet despite what anyone says.

So I guess I am comfortable with it and so is my wife. For us, the most challenging part of the cruise was the intercostal route. Ocean jumps were infinitely easier. The more difficult issue with our 3 day crossing of the Gulf was he 24-7 sleep/watch cycles. I typically watched TV at night in the 30 knot winds from the comfort of the cockpit.

Here is a pic of our route..
Bryce


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## Scotty C-M (Aug 14, 2013)

Hey, a fellow Catalina 400. Because of personal decisions, I keep my cruising pretty close to home here in Santa Cruz California. I travel between Monterey and San Francisco. I believe, however, that I would be happy (and safe) taking Rosa Nautica pretty much anywhere (no ice, please). Of course, like any boat, I would be sure to do the proper maintenance and outfitting. The whole concept of "whatmakesabluewaterboat" is such a sliding (subjective) scale. 

The Catalina 425 is an affordable boat with superior characteristics. I just happen to like my boat better!! 

.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.;.; :2 boat:


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## BryceGTX (Sep 7, 2011)

Hi Scotty..

Cool.. Looks like you have access to the Baja. Sounds like it would make a great trip. And you have direct access to the South Pacific... Doesn't get much better than that! We would love that.. Perhaps eventually we will go through the Panama Canal.. No plans yet.

Next year we expect to take another trip down the Mississippi again, but a bit further into the Caribbean. So many places to explore...

Petting Sting rays Gun Key Bahamas
Bryce


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

I think there's skepticism and bias in much of what you've written.



chuck5499 said:


> ...What I am saying is you go to a boat show and see the whiz bang and the wife loves the galley...


Sounds a little condescending toward women. Newbies who've never sailed might react like this, but someone who has done it before (and thus considering a brand new 42' boat) will be far more discerning. Even women. 



chuck5499 said:


> So if you are going to day sail in protected waters you want one boat - if you want to do more a different boat...


I can assure you that a Catalina 425 is capable of far more than daysailing. Any boat that size is a pain in the ass taking out for only a few hours at a time.



chuck5499 said:


> ...By the way when we bought SoulMates - the only boat we have ever owned...


...which makes you an expert on all brands of boats??? I think I see where this is headed...


chuck5499 said:


> ......a Jeanneau DS40...


I laughed when I read this. I thought you were going to suggest a real bluewater boat, one that's designed, from the bottom up, to be a superior oceangoing vessel. It's a totally different animal, and everything needs to be upgraded for true bluewater passages. You can upgrade a base model Catalina or a base model Jeanneau, or buy from a higher end bluewater manufacturer. But you're making Ford vs. Renault comparison. Neither one is a Lexus or Mercedes without significant upgrades and refitting. And many would argue that the fat-ass hull shape is uncomfortable in difficult seas. I'm not experienced enough to say much more about this, so I'll leave it for the experts to discuss.

I chartered a 4 week old Jeanneau Sun Oddyssey once. I've also owned and chartered multiple models of Catalinas. I was more impressed with the hardware and build quality of all of the Catalinas, which is why I stayed brand-loyal with my next boat. Even after 4 weeks, the Jeanneau was starting to show the effects of corner-cutting. I concluded it's a fine boat to charter, but I don't particularly want to own one.


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## chuck5499 (Aug 31, 2003)

I should not do this but I will - If you Catalina is such a great boat for blue water why is that in 9 years and over 35,000nm of cruising all the Caribbean from fla to Colombia to Jamaica to Trini to a 2 person crossing of the Atlantic to 3 years in the Med to a circum nav of the Black Sea we have maybe 2-3 Catalinas at most - Jeanneaus yea a lot of them, Bennies and Bavarias and higher end ones yea but Catalina none -- 

And the comment that a 42 is a lot of boat for a day sail says a lot about the writer -- we had a good laugh at that one -- we know a lot of folks who have 40' or more boats that they day sail on - as we sit in Istanbul today we are watching guys take 40 - 50' out for day sails - 

nothing wrong in a catalina for a coaster cruiser and Bahamas (last time we saw one we think) but crossing the Atlantic or around the Black Sea I want a real boat and Jeanneau is our choice 

but what the heck to do we know - we are just people that sail it and don't just talk about it


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

chuck5499 said:


> I should not do this but I will - If you Catalina is such a great boat for blue water...


Oh for f#ck sake this gets old...

...and no you shouldn't do it.










...now go do a quick google search and you can find the dozens of SailNet threads saying your Jeanneau is totally unfit for how you're using it. Blah, blah, blah.

...then google SailNet threads about all the Catalinas that have done circumnavigations. Blah, blah, blah.










There I saved us _AT LEAST_ 10 pages.

Now getting back to talking about the new 425 for those who are interested...

.


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## robert sailor (Jun 22, 2015)

chuck5499 said:


> I should not do this but I will - If you Catalina is such a great boat for blue water why is that in 9 years and over 35,000nm of cruising all the Caribbean from fla to Colombia to Jamaica to Trini to a 2 person crossing of the Atlantic to 3 years in the Med to a circum nav of the Black Sea we have maybe 2-3 Catalinas at most - Jeanneaus yea a lot of them, Bennies and Bavarias and higher end ones yea but Catalina none --
> 
> And the comment that a 42 is a lot of boat for a day sail says a lot about the writer -- we had a good laugh at that one -- we know a lot of folks who have 40' or more boats that they day sail on - as we sit in Istanbul today we are watching guys take 40 - 50' out for day sails -
> 
> ...


Chuck
I understand why you think about these boats as you do. First of all your sailing from the East Coast and while Catalina is now built in Florida most of the 60,000 boats they have built were built in California.
When we sailed in the Med for a couple of years we never saw a Catalina but we never saw a Hunter either. I think we saw one Island Packet, very few American built boats over there, however there is a gazillion Beneteau/Bavaria and Jeanneau 's and that is understandable. They are used by the thousands for charter and personal ownership plus that's the area they are all built. You can say the same thing about the Caribbean except I think we see more Island Packets here than Jeanneau's but there are lots of both. 
If you sailed on the West Coast you would see Catalina's everywhere, there are tons of them in every port. Many down in Mexico, very popular cruising boat. When we sailed the South Pacific and North Pacific over several years we also saw many in those areas as well. Catalina's have circumnavigated starting with the little Cat 27, I think maybe two of them have done so, wouldn't be my choice but after some beefing up they did do it. 
Catalina has their offshore Hall of Fame on their website somewhere and there are many voyagers that are listed there but because it's fairly new it certainly doesn't even begin to cover where many of these boats have sailed. 
To support some of your views I will say in my opinion, Jeanneau 's built years ago were built better than a similar Catalina's and better suited for offshore sailing but these days I believe that larger Catalina's are equal to or better than a similar Jeanneau in some respects. For example Catalina's use lead keels and bronze thru hulls and their interior finishing is teak rather than a cheaper alternative compared to Jeanneau 's cast iron keels and brass thru hulls. Keep in mind these are just my opinions. I think both boats offer a very high value to cost ratio and in 99% of the time they are all the boat that most sailors will ever really need. Neither was designed with their first purpose of offshore sailing but both carry the same CE rating (for what that is worth) and built in a very similar fashion and if modified here and there are up to the task of crossing oceans in decent weather. If I were buying an older model I'd probably choose a Jeanneau but if I was buying new today it would be a coin toss?


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Been thinking about the fuzziness of "Blue Water". Currently think a simple definition is a voyage longer than currently available reliable weather reports. So for most of us we can count on 3 days being accurate and 4 to 5 days as being somewhat accurate but beyond that there's a real chance of seeing some weather. Translating that into miles means 450 to 600 for 3 days and 750 to 1000 for 5 days for most of us. Think that may be part of the underpinnings of at least a thousand mile passage to be eligible to join OCC. 
However, think you may see equally trying circumstances coastally. Especially as regards breaking waves. Hence a good seaboat can be a lifesaver regardless of whether you are coastal or offshore.
As regards "offshore" think a simple working definition is you are beyond helicopter range. Currently I think SAR helicopter range is ~400 miles so that translates to the boat being 200 miles or greater from land. Otherwise you are near shore. Think most sailing is in "protected waters". At least when in the big bays like Narragansett or the Chesapeake on the east coast.
Believe above boat was cruised extensively and owners are great experienced cruisers but boat has not been offshore or in blue water if you accept working definitions above.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

BTW BWS said nice things about this boat. Worth reading.


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## robert sailor (Jun 22, 2015)

There is certainly something to Outbound comments. Most offshore cruising clubs consider 1000 miles to be the magic number for membership and it has to be away from land, in other words sailing a thousand miles along a coast does not qualify. The old saying that you get to choose the weather the day you leave and then after that you deal with whatever comes up is certainly true however it's also true that if you sail in season and stick to the lower latitudes you seldom get surprised with weather that exceeds 30 knots. It's the upper latitudes where most surprises lie and if your doing lots of sailing offshore in the higher latitudes then it pays to maybe choose a boat that is better built and in my mind it doesn't include the high value boats. There are tons of choices out there and for normal coastal sailing such as the Med/Mexico or the Caribbean almost any boat that has been looked after will safely do the job for a competent skipper.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

I think you guys are getting a little hyperbolic about “blue water”. If a cruising club only allows members that have been 1,000 miles from land, it is a very exclusive club. The halfway point from San Francisco to Hawaii is 1,100 NM and is the furthest from land in the Northern Hemisphere. In the Southern Hemisphere, point Nemo (1,600 NM) is near the southern ocean between Easter and Pitcairn Islands. If memory serves correctly, there is no point in the Atlantic that is so remote. If “Bluewater” means sailing past a five day forecast, then why not install a SSB so you can get daily forecasts from NOAA? Besides, just because you have a five day forecast doesn't mean you actually get five days of "good" weather. I actually have a couple of thousand NM in a C42 albeit never more than 500 between landfalls (what’s the distance between Newport and Bermuda?). I also been in gale conditions for 18 hours. The boat is fine. If I have any complaint at all is that the tankage and stowage are a bit “small” which can be mitigated by adding a water maker.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

George not a thousand miles from land rather a thousand mile trip. Think you sped read the post.

But that's the point I'm making the blue water distinction is not that meaningful. Weather is weather wherever you see it. But here the 5 day forecast has implications. You are not going to outrun a large thousand mile system in most boats. Yes you download weather daily and talk to your weather router daily. Yes you change course to get on the safer side of it or out of higher winds/waves. But you loss the ability to tuck into a nice harbor and drink G&Ts as it goes by.


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## Scotty C-M (Aug 14, 2013)

So, the "whatmakesabluewaterboat" discussion has been dealt with in great detail here and elsewhere. OK, let's stipulate that this boat is of a type that not all would call "Bluewater", but some do.

Let's talk about this specific boat. 

For example: One detail of the boat is that it has a "Deep Defense Rudder System". What the heck is that? Anyone know? I like that it has a collision bulkhead forward. I know that my 400 has a lively feel to it. I expect that this boat does too. Anyone ride on one yet??


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Outbound, I was referring to Robert Sailor’s “clarification” after your message where he states that the 1,000 NM was “away from land” and not “down the coast”. Why is it when somebody seeks info on Catalina, people start hyperventilating that the boat is somehow inadequate for the southern ocean? What is the fascination with down there? Most folks I know want to cruise the tropical Pacific Islands and not beat their brains out in cold frigid waters.

Out here in the Pacific, weather moves in 3-5 day cycles, so over the course of a five day forecast you will see something roll in. For example, last April we were stuck in Cabo San Lucas for a week waiting for the weather to clear around Cabo Falso. We finally got that window, but it meant poor conditions around Cabo San Lazaro and the Thetis Bank. We went for it anyway, and the Catalina was fine. Unfortunately, with wind and wave on our nose, we mostly motored and motor sailed, necessitating a refueling stop in Turtle Bay (drat that “smallish” fuel tank!) The boat had a Sirius weather link and that was fantastic. Its model seemed to be more accurate than the GRIB and NOAA forecasts and, being displayed directly on the chart plotter, made the weather routing a snap. Unfortunately for you “blue water” sailors, its coverage is only about 500 NM off the coast.

Perforated toe rails are a function of the hull-deck joint and do not lend themselves well to Catalina’s “shoebox” type of construction. My Cat has T-track on the toe rail to facilitate placement of blocks, etc. But truth be told, I tie my fenders to the coach roof hand rail. 

My local Catalina brokerage is getting their first 425 in a month or so and I was promised a test sail on it then so I can report back later. I’ve been told that their customer base was disappointed that they had discontinued the C42 and that they needed to have a cruising boat or surrender that market segment to Jeanneu and Beneteau.


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## robert sailor (Jun 22, 2015)

GeorgeB said:


> Outbound, I was referring to Robert Sailor's "clarification" after your message where he states that the 1,000 NM was "away from land" and not "down the coast". Why is it when somebody seeks info on Catalina, people start hyperventilating that the boat is somehow inadequate for the southern ocean? What is the fascination with down there? Most folks I know want to cruise the tropical Pacific Islands and not beat their brains out in cold frigid waters.
> 
> Out here in the Pacific, weather moves in 3-5 day cycles, so over the course of a five day forecast you will see something roll in. For example, last April we were stuck in Cabo San Lucas for a week waiting for the weather to clear around Cabo Falso. We finally got that window, but it meant poor conditions around Cabo San Lazaro and the Thetis Bank. We went for it anyway, and the Catalina was fine. Unfortunately, with wind and wave on our nose, we mostly motored and motor sailed, necessitating a refueling stop in Turtle Bay (drat that "smallish" fuel tank!) The boat had a Sirius weather link and that was fantastic. Its model seemed to be more accurate than the GRIB and NOAA forecasts and, being displayed directly on the chart plotter, made the weather routing a snap. Unfortunately for you "blue water" sailors, its coverage is only about 500 NM off the coast.
> &
> ...


You can sail out into the Pacific 500 miles and turn around and sail back and you'll meet the minimum requirements for full fledged offshore membership in the Ocean Cruising Club out of GB or the Bluewater Cruising Club out of Vancouver Canada. I'm sure there are many other clubs but it seems the 1000 mile thingy is a common denominator. As far as high latitude sailing, it has been growing in popularity over the years. At one time you might have been Knighted after a voyage in these lands but these days not so much. In fact sailing in high latitudes is much easier these days because of GPS. It wasn't that long ago that cruisers would cross the ocean heading for Cape Horn and were open to some very serious weather enroute and needed a very stout boat for these types of passages. It is still being done by a very few tough souls but now a days most folks start out in the easy sailing and coastal hop all the way down and around and continue coastal hopping until they get into easier sailing. This was impossible prior to GPS and today's way of getting around is much much easier than in the past. That said when you are in these higher latitudes it's a better idea to have a boat that was purposely build for heavier going but I'm not suggesting that you couldn't make the trip in a value boat, it's just my opinion that there might be better choices.


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## Scotty C-M (Aug 14, 2013)

Value boat? Sounds (I tried really hard to come up with a respectful way to say this) a bit condescending.


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## robert sailor (Jun 22, 2015)

Scotty C-M said:


> Value boat? Sounds (I tried really hard to come up with a respectful way to say this) a bit condescending.


Not at all Scotty...if you read my other posts you will see that I refer to them as high value boats, I simply missed one word while typing on my tablet. I think it's a good and complimentary name as you get high value for an affordable price. I would call a HR a high priced boat as its probably twice the price per foot as are others. I like Catalina's I think they offer a lot of boat for the buck.


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## Scotty C-M (Aug 14, 2013)

Thank you Robert for clarifying that. Funny how missing one word can change a meaning. Sorry I didn't make the connection to previous posts. I'm a bit tired, sitting at my computer. My apologies.


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## BryceGTX (Sep 7, 2011)

In 8 years.. Chuck5499 has seen half a dozen Catalinas.. Yet he feels he is an expert on them and they cannot go off shore.

The Designer of my Catalina 400 says the boat is designed to go anywhere.

I have nearly 55 years experience boating.. 6 years with this boat and say 24000 miles.

I suppose the only thing I can say is Chuck.. you don't know what you are talking about... Chuck.. the fact that you actually made it across the Atlantic in anything, tells me pretty much anyone can do it in pretty much anything.

My opinion is, it is incredibly easy to sail off shore.. It is incredibly more difficult to navigate the infinite variety of inlets and coastal water ways by far.

I once had a discussion with a good friend that has sailed around the world.. I suggested it might be interesting to go to Europe. He said to me.. "In the States, you have easy access to some of the most beautiful cruising grounds in the world in the Bahamas and Caribbean. Why go to the Med.. Everyone from Europe wants to come to the Bahamas!!"

And on the west coast, you have immediate access to the South Pacific.. again.. one of the most beautiful cruising grounds in the world.

And lets not forget the incredible number of places to sail in the States itself..

So now, I can pretty much go to arguably the most desirable cruising grounds in the world and never be more than a few hundred miles off shore.... 

Heck I could plot a course around the world and never be more that a 400 hundred miles from shore..
Guess that Blue water line is getting even more fuzzy..

Bryce


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## robert sailor (Jun 22, 2015)

Scotty C-M said:


> Thank you Robert for clarifying that. Funny how missing one word can change a meaning. Sorry I didn't make the connection to previous posts. I'm a bit tired, sitting at my computer. My apologies.


No need to apologize Scotty I'm always making mistakes plus I'm Canadian so I'm always sorry about something. These little tablets have spell checking and often even remove words although I suspect it was just me. One of my friends traveled with us down to Mexico, on thru to Central America thru the Canal and up the Caribbean all the way back to Canada about 20 years ago in his Catalina 42 and the boat was perfect for his use. It sold very quickly after he returned years later, very high value boat and few problems.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

I just want to get from barrington to Hampton. Was planning to go outside and get her done starting on the twentieth. Now looks like it's smarter going inside the sound and waiting for the low to go by. This is a prime example of the difference between inshore and offshore cruising. Inshore you nearly always have the option of getting to a cozy spot and let the system go by. Tentative date for the sdr is the 2nd. Glad I have the extra time. 
Schedules kill. Seems more likely people are on a tighter schedule coastal. Fixed vacations. Family responsibilities. Seems you're more likely to have a looser time window on passage. There the hassle is crew but they tend to be understanding given the type of trip it is. So think if you're going to cruise regardless if it's coastal or offshore you want the toughest best boat you can afford. People will push it. Plan a trip to Maine or the Elizabethians and be pressured to go because of time constraints. Be in Maine and need to get back by such and such a date although now the weather is unpleasant. 
Hence don't understand "it's a good coastal boat". Do understand "it's a good sea boat " or a "good moderate weather boat " or "its just a fair weather boat". 
Weather is weather. The only weather that matters is what you're experiencing regardless of where you are. Rag on HR but they are good sea boats. My understanding is the design target initially was coastal cruising. But that was in the North Sea.


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## Yamsailor (Jun 7, 2006)

I thought this thread was about the Catalina 425?

Oy Vey.


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## robert sailor (Jun 22, 2015)

outbound said:


> I just want to get from barrington to Hampton. Was planning to go outside and get her done starting on the twentieth. Now looks like it's smarter going inside the sound and waiting for the low to go by. This is a prime example of the difference between inshore and offshore cruising. Inshore you nearly always have the option of getting to a cozy spot and let the system go by. Tentative date for the sdr is the 2nd. Glad I have the extra time.
> Schedules kill. Seems more likely people are on a tighter schedule coastal. Fixed vacations. Family responsibilities. Seems you're more likely to have a looser time window on passage. There the hassle is crew but they tend to be understanding given the type of trip it is. So think if you're going to cruise regardless if it's coastal or offshore you want the toughest best boat you can afford. People will push it. Plan a trip to Maine or the Elizabethians and be pressured to go because of time constraints. Be in Maine and need to get back by such and such a date although now the weather is unpleasant.
> Hence don't understand "it's a good coastal boat". Do understand "it's a good sea boat " or a "good moderate weather boat " or "its just a fair weather boat".
> Weather is weather. The only weather that matters is what you're experiencing regardless of where you are. Rag on HR but they are good sea boats. My understanding is the design target initially was coastal cruising. But that was in the North Sea.


I'm going to say right up front that I really like the Outbound 46, CS never drew a slow boat in his life. It's also very well built, your typical stick built go anywhere construction and finished to a high level BUT not everyone can afford a boat such as you have. Sure the HR is a well built go anywhere boat but these days many sailors are buying and using high production liner constructed sailboats to cross oceans and it's my opinion that by and large the boats are capable of doing the job in normal trade wind sailing. I guess the other thing to consider is 90% of today's cruisers are not crossing oceans so the high production boats will serve them just fine in areas like the Caribbean. It's hard for me to argue against what's really happening out there and while I'm sure everyone would love to own a boat like yours, few have the financial capabilities. It's just great that folks are getting out there and having fun. I was looking back to 2002 when we crossed to the South Pacific in the Puddle Jumpers Group with Latitude 38 and there were around 40 of us in total, I look at 2016 and it's many times larger so it's a good indication that more people are living the dream, that's cool.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

chris95040 said:


> The ruggedness of a keel-stepped mast is something I often wish for. Being supported both at the deck and at the keel, in my uninformed opinion, seems to make it less likely you'd lose your rig when a shroud parts....


Jeff's article is on point but the short version is that people "like" keel stepped masts because they look strong, not because they are strong. I firmly agree with Jeff that for similar quality of engineering and construction a deck-stepped mast will be stronger and the boat certainly dryer.



Yamsailor said:


> I recently found out the hull is solid glass only below the waterline. Above the waterline the hull is a sandwich with an end-grain balsa core. Anyone have thoughts on a hull that is not all glass?


Many well-regarded boats are cored above the waterline and in the deck. As noted solid fiberglass is preferred for penetrations and hardware mounts. Coring provides a lighter stronger structure and generally provides improved insulation. Coring got a bad name because of water penetration into materials that allow wicking. Solid synthetics directly solve that problem.



outbound said:


> Been thinking about the fuzziness of "Blue Water". Currently think a simple definition is a voyage longer than currently available reliable weather reports.


That is the definition I use consistently. It isn't at all about knowing the forecast, it is about the option to bail out. Offshore, good forecast data gives you the option to make minor position adjustments and to prepare. I do not go offshore without sufficient communications to get weather forecasts, preferably weather fax for synoptics. Gribs are not good enough except in the South Pacific where there is no better alternative.



outbound said:


> Think that may be part of the underpinnings of at least a thousand mile passage to be eligible to join OCC.


Agreed, and to become an SSCA Commodore.



BryceGTX said:


> In 8 years.. Chuck5499 has seen half a dozen Catalinas.. Yet he feels he is an expert on them and they cannot go off shore.


Frankly I don't see a whole lot of difference between Catalina, Jeanneau, and Beneteau. Certainly they have design features that differ but it is like arguing about the difference between Ford, Chevrolet, and Dodge trucks. There is more emotion and cherry picking of factors than anything else.



BryceGTX said:


> My opinion is, it is incredibly easy to sail off shore.. It is incredibly more difficult to navigate the infinite variety of inlets and coastal water ways by far.


Given some outfit and provisioning, crossing oceans is just going for a day sail and forgetting to go home. *grin*


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Dave speaking to your insightful post.
My impression is coring is stiffer and stronger than solid grp if done right. Right may mean CF on high density closed cell foam. Still it strikes me as unusual many current swans are still solid skins. Have a poor opinion of balsa although still in use on some high end boats. Yes end grain allows good adhesion to skins and has very good strength to weight. Yes there's slower water migration. But have had the experience of a soggy deck on a prior boat and know how hard sometimes it is to find all the points of water entry.
Even with synthetic cores there's some trade offs. Getting good wetting down and adhesion. Strength is different than stiffness. Prior Outbounds had balsa decks. We had the construction changed for ours going with divinylcell due to it's stiffness although corecell may have been a better choice in retrospect.
So as regards the Catalina I don't think coring is a detriment. Construction seems well within current standards. They do have an excellent reputation. Do think before passage boats should short haul and integrity of hull be assessed. Also then you leave with a faster clean bottom. Wonder if this was done to cheeki rafi and to what degree? 
A question to you. At present when they say solid to waterline is that the static or heeled waterline?


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## robert sailor (Jun 22, 2015)

Outbound you talked about Swans and no cored hull. Swans have always been solid glass. That said Baltic was started by a few key players that worked at Swan and decided to strike out on their own and developed a relationship with Canada's C&C group. The Baltic boys decided that cored hulls were the way to go and C&C were the leading boat builder in the world at that time and we're heavily invested in building cored hulls. C&C designed the first Baltics and the rest is history. The last boat I cruised with many years ago was a Tartan 44 and it was a cored hull, it tested out perfect when I bought it and never was a problem in any way and it was balsa core. Cored hulls have many advantages over solid glass and if they were properly built they should last a lifetime without issues.


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## robert sailor (Jun 22, 2015)

Back to Dave's point about actual differences between builders and emotional differences. I couldn't agree more. There is little difference between any of the high production builders, build quality is similar in most respects. Group Beneteau are the largest and are able to afford the biggest advertising programs for their Jeanneau /Lagoon and Beneteau line of sailboats. They constantly are bringing out new boats as they know the toughest competition is the used boat you built 5 years ago so by changing their models they offer something not available in the used market. A company like Catalina finds the costs of large constant changes too high for the volume of boats they sell so they take the approach of constantly improving a boat over a longer time period. It's just two different approaches to doing business. You can debate that the French or German builders are too Euro feeling for the American market and Catalina offers something closer to Americans more traditional tastes but I think the tastes of buyers suggest their is room for both. But back to Dave's point, while there are differences in the product offerings in these builders, they are small and it gets down to an emotional decision more than anything.


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

I've been on several Jenn DS 40, 41 boats...lightweight and flimsy are the words I would use to describe them.


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## BryceGTX (Sep 7, 2011)

SVAuspicious said:


> Frankly I don't see a whole lot of difference between Catalina, Jeanneau, and Beneteau. Certainly they have design features that differ but it is like arguing about the difference between Ford, Chevrolet, and Dodge trucks. There is more emotion and cherry picking of factors than anything else.


I would suggest that Catalina buyers had quite strong opinions about why they chose a Catalina. And it is not because it was the same as picking a Ford or Chevy. Clearly the difference between a Catalina and a French Boat is more similar to the difference between a Renault and a Chevy.

Clearly the Renault is design and built for the European market. Chevys are designed for the American Market.. There is definitely adaption of each manufacturers cars for the other markets.

On the Other hand the French Boats are not made for the American Market. Rather the French Boat Manufacturers assume anything they make, the Americans will buy. It is clear in the design of their boats. This has been discussed time and again on this Forum.

If you want to se the experts in a country designing for the American Market, the experts in this field are clearly the Japanese. These guys are brilliant. Their Automobiles focused on the American market are winners and their market share shows it.
Bryce


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## BryceGTX (Sep 7, 2011)

Yamsailor said:


> I thought this thread was about the Catalina 425?
> 
> Oy Vey.


Yes.. you are absolutely right!!!

I suggest that you talk to Catalina owners about their experiences with their boats and why they picked a Catalina. You will get some very specific reasons why it is so.

My 400 Catalina is my first Catalina. And I have no friends with Catalinas. So no external influence to cause me to buy a Catalina. And I had no salesman trying to sell me one. I decided on the Catalina based on my experience of crawling through the hundreds of bilges of other manufacturers boats over about 2 years. I looked at every boat from 20 years old to brand new. I wanted to see how boats age.

I also have very strong opinions why I did not buy a Jenneau, Benneteau or Lagoon for that matter.

On the other hand I have strong opinions why I did not buy an Island Packet, Hylas, Bravaria or any of the others.

However, this thread is not about why we do not buy the other boats, rather it is about why someone might want to buy a Catalina and specifically the 425.

For this reason, I suggest to pay attention closely to the Catalina owners.

Some of my reasons to buy a Catalina.. I like the Standing rigging design of the big Catalinas. In addition to the 8 shrouds, the shrouds are solidly tied down low in the hull to best react the mast forces. I do not like external chain plates, because they require bulk heads to become a integral part of the structure of the boat. So the bulkheads must be solidly glassed to the hull in such boats. You could completely remove the front bulkhead in my 400 and have little to no effect on the structure of my 400 Catalina. In short, the standing rigging is as good or better than any other manufacturer.. blue water or otherwise.

I like the solid decks below. The flooring may be 3/8" laminated wood like other boats, but this wood is solidly held up by huge fiberglass flanged supports from below. Large moveable flooring like battery cover is 3/4" plywood with the 3/8" on top of it. In short, the deck down below does not flex in the least. Look at the support for flooring in other boats. Some are 3/8" wood with very little structural support. And removable panels are the same wood often supported with a glued on flange of the same material!!

Check out the side walls on the hull of a Catalina, often fiberglass and/or nice solid wood. Go inside some of the other boats and press on the side walls only to find it is very flimsy cardboard type material with vinyl covering.

If you look at a Catalina 400, you will find a huge Furlex furler that dwafts most other 40-45 foot boats. Again heavily built. Twin back stays thumb their nose up at back stayless rigs.

Cabinetry below is lined with solid wood edging. And bulk heads are solid marine grade plywood with teak laminate or fiberglass. Very solidly built, as good as it gets.

The inner liner is heavily built to support the lower deck and cabinetry. My mast is keel stepped which is my preference. Again the strongest that can be built. No deck step mast is stronger. The keel step mast sits directly on huge glassed in beams that are independent of the inner liner, but rather an integral part of the hull.

The lead keel is solidly attached to a very large, wide keel stub, that dwarfs many of the competition. You will never beak this off, unlike some of the competition.

I suppose I could go on.. and on.. but these are the initial points that come to mind.

Hopefully this helps,
Bryce


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## BryceGTX (Sep 7, 2011)

Large comfortable interspring mattresses in the Catalinas are considerably more comfortable than the simple foam mattresses on the other boats. Keep in mid, when you travel for long periods, you will be spending 1/3 of your life sleeping. So you might as well have a comfortable mattress. 

The 425 comes with electric heads. I have converted both of my heads to Raritan Elegance, and I will never go back. If you want to treat your wife like a queen, this is definitely one way to do it.

Talking to Gerry Douglas, he mentioned the difference I would immediately notice about the 425 compared to our 400 is the 425 is quite a bit stiffer. This translates into less heeling.

Already, I find our 400 is quite stiff. If I am heeling at 15 degrees, our speed is probably 10 mph. So this will be even better for my wife. She hates heeling. You can put her in 30 foot sees and the wind screaming through the rigging no problem. But if the boat heels at 15 degrees in 15 knot winds and no waves she will be upset.

Bryce


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## BryceGTX (Sep 7, 2011)

The 425 comes with 3 8D batteries.. yup 8D.. not 4 D. All three located low down in the hull. Two batteries aft, third towards the midship presumably for the windlass.

All tankage, according to the sales rep are down low in the hull below deck to keep center of gravity low. My 400 has these tanks higher. So could be a benefit.

Very nice solid teak folding table in the cockpit. Teak table below in the salon folds over top of itself to make it smaller when not needed as a large table.

Storage everywhere..

What did I leave out??
Bryce


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## BryceGTX (Sep 7, 2011)

For cruisers, the 425 comes with a dingy motor bracket built into the aft railing. This is one of those things that you must have if you do any cruising. Might as well be part of the boat. Compare to other boats that must be added on. 

And yes, like all Catalinas.. the 425 comes with dual perch seats. Compare to other boats with no perch seats. And with cup holders.. my wife rubs this in (cup holders) everytime she sees it on the 5 series.

For those of you that consider these meaningless trivial points... anything that makes the cruising experience more enjoyable is welcome in my book.

And of course twin wheels. For me, this is a must have. The biggest reason is that it provides a clear central passage in the cockpit that allows me to move fore and aft in the cockpit to access winches, lines and whatever.

Bryce


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## BryceGTX (Sep 7, 2011)

For those of you interested, the 425 comes with "Smartplug" power inlet as standard equipment.

And for those interested, a large vertical door accessible from the sugar scoop allows access to the aft storage compartment on the starboard side. These aft storage areas are also accessible from fold up seats behind each wheel similar to the 400.

Twin aft staterooms allow the port stateroom to be used specifically as a storage area that is accessible from the cockpit via a fold up seat like the 445.

AS I said earlier, the anchor locker is split into two side-by-side compartments to keep two anchor rodes/chains separate. Simple things like this are very nice. The anchor roller is placed further forward than most boats to keep a swinging anchor from banging into the boat when it comes up. This feature is particularly important for a bow that has no rake. Those of us that anchor often can appreciate this.

Bryce


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

outbound said:


> My impression is coring is stiffer and stronger than solid grp if done right.


Correct. More than an impression. This is for the same reason that I-beams are used in buildings rather than solid sections. The reading assignment is section modulus and moment of inertia.

Good design and construction are of course necessary.

I'm quite fond of Divinycell.



outbound said:


> A question to you. At present when they say solid to waterline is that the static or heeled waterline?


Usually a little above the design static waterline.



BryceGTX said:


> The 425 comes with electric heads. I have converted both of my heads to Raritan Elegance, and I will never go back. If you want to treat your wife like a queen, this is definitely one way to do it.


I'm a big fan of electric heads. If you want to really make your partner happy put an Espar diesel heater on the boat and make sure the forced air outlet in the head can be pointed at the seat. THAT will be treating your wife like a queen, and you will like it too.


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## robert sailor (Jun 22, 2015)

Not trying to be a contrary to good ideas but I think every time you add more electronics to a cruising boat you add more complexity and a larger chance of breakdowns, simple is usually better. If your coastal cruising then it's simply a matter of writing cheques which is fine, no problem. If your electrical systems have manual backups then not so bad.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

robert sailor said:


> Not trying to be a contrary to good ideas but I think every time you add more electronics to a cruising boat you add more complexity and a larger chance of breakdowns, simple is usually better.


I think that depends on whether you mean electronics or electrical.

Electronics that you can't do without (like the Beneteau and Jeanneau fly-by-wire systems) are worrisome to me. Electronics that take other systems with them on failure (like autopilots dependent on chartplotters) worry me.

On the other hand electrical systems may be the simplest and most reliable. Electric toilets fall into that category.


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## robert sailor (Jun 22, 2015)

SVAuspicious said:


> I think that depends on whether you mean electronics or electrical.
> 
> Electronics that you can't do without (like the Beneteau and Jeanneau fly-by-wire systems) are worrisome to me. Electronics that take other systems with them on failure (like autopilots dependent on chartplotters) worry me.
> 
> On the other hand electrical systems may be the simplest and most reliable. Electric toilets fall into that category.


We just have very different opinions, which is fine. My experience is that electrical items are not maintenance free. For example, I have had issues with the wind less wiring, which is fixed now for the second time. Bilge pumps, the odd light and of course the fridge. The more electrical stuff you add on your boat the more complicated it becomes. When your crossing oceans your boat is always damp and no matter how careful you are you drag salt below, you have salt air coming thru your hatches even at anchor and it's just not a friendly environment for electrical items. Over the short run you'll be just fine or if your cruise areas out of the tropics it's a big improvement but the longer you cruise in tropical climates the more problems you'll have. I understand the desire for something like electrical heads and of course it's a personal choice but I guess when I'm too weak to pump the head it's going to be time to hang up my spurs.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

robert sailor said:


> ...I understand the desire for something like electrical heads and of course it's a personal choice but I guess when I'm too weak to pump the head it's going to be time to hang up my spurs.


Do you sail alone? For those of us who typically do not, comfort of spouse and/or crew is very important.

I find that a lot of the disconnects between people here result from different objectives: singlehanded/couples, passagemaking/coastal/daysailors, etc.

I also notice that singlehanders tend to be much more dogmatic in their views, whereas those who need to negotiate compromises with spouse and/or crew are more open to other ideas. Maybe this is a personal bias, but I occasionally see a comment where I think, "I can see why he sails alone." I am not referring to you personally with this comment, and in fact am not referring to any currently active message thread.

As for opinions, I would be very reluctant to blow off anything that Dave says. And in his defense, he never said that electrical devices are maintenance free. I think you're misrepresenting his statement.

What shocks me about this thread is that one guy says he likes the C425 enough to buy one, some others just jump on top of him as if he's some naive idiot. It's a nice boat, very well designed and executed for its intended purpose and price point, and I hope Catalina sells hundreds of them. It will help seed the resale market for my next potential boat.


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## robert sailor (Jun 22, 2015)

TakeFive said:


> Do you sail alone? For those of us who typically do not, comfort of spouse and/or crew is very important.
> 
> I find that a lot of the disconnects between people here result from different objectives: singlehanded/couples, passagemaking/coastal/daysailors, etc.
> 
> ...


Well let's deal with the Catalina 425 to begin with. I too think it's a nice step forward for Catalina and I wish the company all the best in their endeavours.
Single hander, no I'm not as I'm just not cut from that cloth. Of course I can do it but I enjoy people's company too much. I'm happily married to a wonderful women you is just astoundingly great aboard.
Dave's a big boy and I'm sure he doesn't need anyone sticking up for him, I think you just need to accept that you learn very little from someone who agrees with you. It's best to be open to others opinions and it's also great that you have your own.
When I was younger I used to see things as black and white with a little grey around the edges and now it's all grey with some black and white around the edges.
Now with that said if an electric toilet means your better half will go boating with you as a happy camper then by all means get an electric toilet, life's too short just be prepared for a little more maintenance. 
Here's wishing you great times on the water..R


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

robert sailor said:


> We just have very different opinions, which is fine. My experience is that electrical items are not maintenance free.





TakeFive said:


> As for opinions, I would be very reluctant to blow off anything that Dave says. And in his defense, he never said that electrical devices are maintenance free.





robert sailor said:


> Dave's a big boy and I'm sure he doesn't need anyone sticking up for him, I think you just need to accept that you learn very little from someone who agrees with you. It's best to be open to others opinions and it's also great that you have your own.


Well lets set aside the fact that TakeFive is making me blush, and that I'm bigger than I want to be. *sigh*

*grin*

Here is the context of my perspective. After lots of deliveries with all kinds of heads, correcting for statistical population, and the anecdotal experience on my own boat ten years with an electric head and ignoring comfort factors entirely electric heads are more reliable individually and as part of a system than manual ones. Yes, they are dependent on the 12VDC (or 24VDC) electrical system being intact. Despite that I have had much more trouble with clogs and leaks from manual toilets than electric ones. You're sitting on a garbage disposal. It's just an electric motor. Compare that to all the moving parts in a manual toilet and an electric is clearly intrinsically simpler. Sure there is maintenance but even that is simpler than a manual toilet.

The reason I have one on my own boat is that Hallberg Rassy shared their warranty history with me when I was selecting options and their much larger statistical data was really clear.

A rebuild takes me about fifteen minutes every other year.

My original outfit was for a manual toilet because I thought as you do. I had an open mind as you espouse and went with the data. Ten years down the road I have no regrets.


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## robert sailor (Jun 22, 2015)

SVAuspicious said:


> Well lets set aside the fact that TakeFive is making me blush, and that I'm bigger than I want to be. *sigh*
> 
> *grin*
> 
> ...


Interesting information from HR as it goes against my better judgement meter but if it is a fact then I certainly would be open to changing my mind. I guess deep down in my reptilian mind I just prefer simplicity when it comes to sailboats. I couldn't begin to tell you the amount of money I have spent over the years on repair and replacement items on sailboats. I do appreciate convenience which is why we have an electrical windless so I certainly understand why folks do what they do. I replaced the diesel a year ago and bought a Beta as I was not interested in any engine that needed an electronic module to keep running, no matter how much efficiency it may have added.
Thanks for your opinion. R


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## IStream (Dec 15, 2013)

Another toilet anecdote here, though Catalina-related. My C50 has four, count 'em, four vacuflush heads. When I first got the boat I thought this would be a big problem but after living aboard for a year with a family of five, including three young kids who're prone to try all sorts of, ahem, "experiments" with the toilets I'm amazed at their reliability. N=4 isn't much statistical power but the longitudinal study has been a success.


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## BryceGTX (Sep 7, 2011)

SVAuspicious said:


> I'm a big fan of electric heads. If you want to really make your partner happy put an Espar diesel heater on the boat and make sure the forced air outlet in the head can be pointed at the seat. THAT will be treating your wife like a queen, and you will like it too.


Excellent point.. I couldn't agree more..

Often on a cold morning.. I will start the gen and turn on the reverse cycle heating to warm the boat up.. a vent directly feeds the head making it toasty warm.. My wife loves this.

This brings up the subject of heat in a boat. We are often in the water in April. The water temp is a tad above 32 degrees and the air temp may be in the 20s. At anchor over night, we run a Dickenson propane heater that has a dual chimney so as not to create an open flame. This heater on low setting keeps the boat toasty warm.

While we motor, a heater similar to a car takes engine heat from the cooling system to heat the boat up to any temp you please.

Last but not least, we have a full enclosure. This we feel is a necessity for cruising in cooler weather.
Bryce


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

TakeFive said:


> It's a nice boat, very well designed and executed for its intended purpose and price point, and I hope Catalina sells hundreds of them. It will help seed the resale market for my next potential boat.


I don't think anyone has ever accused Catalina of not understanding their market.

The sales guy from my local dealer said this is shaping up to be a popular boat, and he expects some of the features from the 425 to show up on the 385 and 445.

My guess is they'll sell a lot of these boats.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

JimMcGee said:


> My guess is they'll sell a lot of these boats.


I don't think anyone is selling a lot of anything. With the bar set low by that economic reality the 425 will surely be a successful design.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

SVAuspicious said:


> I don't think anyone is selling a lot of anything. With the bar set low by that economic reality the 425 will surely be a successful design.


Yeah, I guess "a lot" is relative.

My local dealer was saying the bigger Catalinas and Ranger Tugs were their best sellers right now and that he was really busy.

He was very upbeat, that's a nice change from a few years ago.


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## robert sailor (Jun 22, 2015)

The problem is not the boats or the prices, it's really the incomes of the middle class which has taken a beating.


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## DayDreamer41 (Aug 19, 2016)

robert sailor said:


> The problem is not the boats or the prices, it's really the incomes of the middle class which has taken a beating.


You are on to something here, last night I heard the Democratic hopeful say in response to the economy, she will raise minimum wage to help rebuild the middle class. Since when is the middle class a recipient of minimum wage? Hope this isn't too political a statement.


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## Yamsailor (Jun 7, 2006)

Believe none of what you hear and half of what you see.



JimMcGee said:


> Yeah, I guess "a lot" is relative.
> 
> My local dealer was saying the bigger Catalinas and Ranger Tugs were their best sellers right now and that he was really busy.
> 
> He was very upbeat, that's a nice change from a few years ago.


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## Yamsailor (Jun 7, 2006)

I will not be surprised to see the demand for the Catalina 425 shut-down production of the Catalina 445, then see Catalina design a new 47+ foot sailboat.



JimMcGee said:


> I don't think anyone has ever accused Catalina of not understanding their market.
> 
> The sales guy from my local dealer said this is shaping up to be a popular boat, and he expects some of the features from the 425 to show up on the 385 and 445.
> 
> My guess is they'll sell a lot of these boats.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

Yamsailor said:


> Believe none of what you hear and half of what you see.


LOL, I know what you're saying but when I asked him how the boat was being received he grinned like a Cheshire cat.


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## robert sailor (Jun 22, 2015)

JimMcGee said:


> LOL, I know what you're saying but when I asked him how the boat was being received he grinned like a Cheshire cat.


4

You'very just described a good salesman.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

DayDreamer41 said:


> You are on to something here, last night I heard the Democratic hopeful say in response to the economy, she will raise minimum wage to help rebuild the middle class. Since when is the middle class a recipient of minimum wage? Hope this isn't too political a statement.


Personal income in the United States
"The US Census Bureau reported a median personal income of $30,240 for all workers over age 15 with income"

$30K a year is what you'd get from working 40 hours a week at $15/hour.

The United States is an interesting place. A full 90% of us consider ourselves middle class, so that's everyone from your $25,000/year checkout clerk to your $400,000/year general surgeon.


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## DayDreamer41 (Aug 19, 2016)

The difference being, $30K used to define the low end of a middle class income, now its the upper end.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

Just saw a post from Catalina about one of their dealers commissioning 425 hull #7.


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## Yamsailor (Jun 7, 2006)

JimMcGee said:


> Just saw a post from Catalina about one of their dealers commissioning 425 hull #7.


I hear if you order a Catalina 425 today, the earliest you will receive it is July, 2017. Apparently the boat is selling. I think Cruising World recently had an article Catalina has taken orders for the first 18 hulls.


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## ThereYouAre (Sep 21, 2016)

JimMcGee said:


> I don't think anyone has ever accused Catalina of not understanding their market.
> 
> The sales guy from my local dealer said this is shaping up to be a popular boat, and he expects some of the features from the 425 to show up on the 385 and 445.
> 
> My guess is they'll sell a lot of these boats.


What features does the 425 have that the 385 is missing? I'm a newbie and I doubt reading the specsheet would enlighten me.

thanks,
Hugh


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## robert sailor (Jun 22, 2015)

How does the base price compare with its French and German rivals??


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## Scotty C-M (Aug 14, 2013)

I can think of ta few significant differences between the 385 and the 425:

Twin helms on the 425. I've never owned a twin helmed boat before, and on my 400 they make a HUGE difference in the utility of the cockpit. 

The 425 has the flex cabin, aft port side. The ability to access this from the cockpit seems to be a useful difference.

The cabin layout is different in that the 425 has a U shape table, and the galley is a bit more squared off. This I think would be more a case of what preference you have. 

The 425 is set up for a self-tacking jib. The fractional rig is designed for it, and time well tell if it sails well. So far, reports seems promising. The self-tacking jib is a nice option for us "older" folks.

The engine size is significant, 40 vs. 57 Hp.

Both look like great boats. The larger one is, well, larger!


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## Yamsailor (Jun 7, 2006)

They are roughly the same based on what I have seen on the internet.



ThereYouAre said:


> What features does the 425 have that the 385 is missing? I'm a newbie and I doubt reading the specsheet would enlighten me.
> 
> thanks,
> Hugh


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

robert sailor said:


> How does the base price compare with its French and German rivals??


A while back there was a good thread on Catalina pricing/quality vs the French and German boats from someone who was actively comparing them.

The gist of it was Catalina includes a lot of things that are options on those boats and the French boat they were looking at (compared to the 445) actually came in costing a little more. She also felt the Catalina was a bit better build quality.

YMMV...

[---EDIT---]

This is the thread Melissa wrote on buying her Catalina 445.
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/general-discussion-sailing-related/101286-our-new-boat.html


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

Yamsailor said:


> They are roughly the same based on what I have seen on the internet.


Actually they are VERY different boats...the 425 feels a lot bigger than the 385. A lot more room up top with twin wheels and a fold out "bed" in the cockpit. More cruising features like the stowage for a liferaft or dinghy in the stern, the "convertible space" on the port side that can be an aft berth, storage or a workshop, etc. and the rig on the 425 has a self tending jib and is really set up to work with the UPS/Code 0 sail as part of the sail inventory.


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## Yamsailor (Jun 7, 2006)

Agreed--I was referring to cost comparison.



JimMcGee said:


> Actually they are VERY different boats...the 425 feels a lot bigger than the 385. A lot more room up top with twin wheels and a fold out "bed" in the cockpit. More cruising features like the stowage for a liferaft or dinghy in the stern, the "convertible space" on the port side that can be an aft berth, storage or a workshop, etc. and the rig on the 425 has a self tending jib and is really set up to work with the UPS/Code 0 sail as part of the sail inventory.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Yamsailor said:


> They are roughly the same based on what I have seen on the internet.





Yamsailor said:


> Agreed--I was referring to cost comparison.


C385 and C425 are roughly the same cost? Please link the web pages that show this.


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## Yamsailor (Jun 7, 2006)

Mo. I was talking about comparing the cost of similar beneteau and Jeanneau to a Catalina.



TakeFive said:


> C385 and C425 are roughly the same cost? Please link the web pages that show this.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Yamsailor said:


> Mo. I was talking about comparing the cost of similar beneteau and Jeanneau to a Catalina.


Sometimes I'm a sloppy reader, but not this time. I'm not going to make a major deal out of this, but just for the record, here is your full post where it was explicitly clear that you were actually comparing the 425 to the 385, not to any French counterparts:


Yamsailor said:


> They are roughly the same based on what I have seen on the internet.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Yamsailor (Jun 7, 2006)

OK--My fault. I screwed up and replied to the wrong quote. An earlier post was comparing the Catalina and the French boats regarding costs. My reply was supposed to be to that post. That is it appeared from the internet the boats in the same size range were similarly priced.



TakeFive said:


> Sometimes I'm a sloppy reader, but not this time. I'm not going to make a major deal out of this, but just for the record, here is your full post where it was explicitly clear that you were actually comparing the 425 to the 385, not to any French counterparts:


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

Yamsailor said:


> Mo. I was talking about comparing the cost of similar beneteau and Jeanneau to a Catalina.


There are so many options on these big cruising boats you'd almost have to spec out identical boats to figure out the real cost difference.

Of course this would be a good problem to have


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## Yamsailor (Jun 7, 2006)

The internet prices I saw were the base price of boats before options and commissioning. Someone once told me to estimate the sail away price by multiplying the base boat price by 1.3.

Estimated Sail Away Price =Base Boat Price x 1.3



JimMcGee said:


> There are so many options on these big cruising boats you'd almost have to spec out identical boats to figure out the real cost difference.
> 
> Of course this would be a good problem to have


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