# Have you ever hit a shipping container?



## johngeo (Jul 25, 2012)

I'm working on an article for a popular sailing magazine about lost shipping containers as a potential sea hazard.

As a result, HAVE ANY OF THIS FORUM'S MEMBERS EVER HIT, SEEN, OR ENCOUNTERED A FLOATING SHIPPING CONTAINER WHILE SAILING?

If so, I really want to hear your story! jg


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## Tim R. (Mar 23, 2003)

You will do much better on the cruisersforum.

Whoops, you already posted there.


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## Skipper Jer (Aug 26, 2008)

We could make up a story for you. I'll start:

It was a dark and stormy night.


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## MobiusALilBitTwisted (Jun 25, 2007)

Captainmeme said:


> We could make up a story for you. I'll start:
> 
> It was a dark and stormy night.


No No......... it was just past the Dog Watch, no moon and a following sea, wind was about 12kn and..........We had been running hard, trying to get back home before Mom found us missing form our beds, Kathy was 12 and I only 13, but she was the better Sailor.....


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## bjslife (Oct 28, 2009)

I live i Charleston Oregon on my 1973 Morgan O/I 33 and work sometimes as a deck hand on fishing boats. During the halibut fish opener june 27 we were drifting for the night ans saw 2 objects on radar about 1.5 miles away. We looked into the dark and could not see any lights. The next day i recieved a text from my girlfriend saying that 2 large fuel storage tanks from the Japan tsunami had washed up on shore at horse falls beach that morning. Here on the Oregon coast the fishermen are now keeping a close eye out for debris. I have found many balls floating and other debris.


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## daydream sailor (Mar 12, 2012)

seems to appear out of nowhere like a motherinlaw with a bad attitude and then.......


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## aa3jy (Jul 23, 2006)

Some years ago,probably about 12 years,I was helping bring back a boat from the Virgin Islands when about 3 days out from the Chesapeake Bay entrance we came across what we thought at first was a small house on the horizon. As we approached closer it was a container floating at about 45 degrees angle. We tried to sink her but the doors where already ajar and we determined it would probably continue to float due to the fact it was a reefer type of a container with plenty of insulation. We did notify the Coast Guard of its position.

If someone still has old Ocean Navigator magazines of by gone years there where pictures that where published.

Bottom line the container did not show up on RADAR. If the seas where rough we would have never seen it.

Update: I found the date, 10/96, that I had submitted the photos of our encounter with the container to Ocean Navigator. Don't know if these original photos can be reused in another publication...


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## johngeo (Jul 25, 2012)

aa3jy, would like to talk to you further about the incident you mention for the article I'm working on.

Can you email me via this site?

Unfortunately, I am too new a member to be able to email you yet.

Kind regards, jg


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## Noelex (Jan 23, 2008)

Collisions with objects in the water mostly containers, whales and tree trunks are reasonably common and often very serious.

I had drinks on a boat a few days ago that hit an unknown object in the dark. There was a large split in keel, but they managed to make it to a marina that hauled them out, but wanted to put them back in immediately because here was no room. 
Fine they said we will sink in the marina then!

No person experience thank goodness, but I have seen a few objects that would do a lot of damage.


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## jlynker (Jan 27, 2012)

MobiusALilBitTwisted said:


> No No......... it was just past he Dog Watch, no moon and a following sea, wind s was about 12kn and..........


A sailor, a mermaid and a shipping container run into a bar...


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

I passed by one in the Straights of Fla. about 15 years ago, about 50 miles north of Cuba. It was sticking maybe 6 inches out of the water, I didn't see it untill I was passing a boats length to wind ward of it. The only reason I didn't hit it was dumb luck. My friend converted an aluminum life boat into a cruising sail boat and came down hard on a 40 foot mahogony tree in the same stretch of water. KABOOM, He said. Had his wife and daughter aboard, nothing happened to the hull.


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## johngeo (Jul 25, 2012)

Captain Aaron, I'd like to ask you a few more questions about your experience.

Can you send me your email address so I can follow up directly with you?

Kind regards, 

John Geoghegan


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

Certainly, I PM'd it to you. Not much to tell though, My girl friend said, "what's that?" I said, "holy Sh!t, that's a conex box!" wicked lucky we were.


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## johngeo (Jul 25, 2012)

Can you give me your full name, age, city and state?


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

E-mail me.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

I look forward to your article. Hitting a container (or other large debris) especially at night is my biggest fear. It could sink your boat in seconds and at night, with little warning even deploying a life raft would be difficult. If crew were sleeping below, they may never escape.

Here is a link you may find interesting:

Deep Cargo: An Ocean Of Lost Shipping Containers | WebEcoist

Regards


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

It's the second most scary thing out there to me, Lightning being the first. For me any way's. I do ship assits on the tug I work on, and those guy's say they lose conex box's all the time, and sometimes in a big sea they actually purposefully let some go. Scary SH!T.


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## johngeo (Jul 25, 2012)

Captain, because I am a new member, the system will not let me email you. If you can send an email message to me at johnjgeoghegan at yahoo dot com I will respond. Many thanks in advance. jg


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

I'll do it now, I'm not doing anything,.... Obviously. I'd put my E-mail here but there are some crazy mofo's on this sight!


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

I remember sailing north of Hawaii , on a bright moonlit night , sleeping in my bunk, when I slammed into something hard and metalic. It launched me right out of my bunk. When I looked back, I could see a large, dark shape, silhouetted in the moonlight. As I was in a steel boat at the time, I had no worries about any damage. Later , I found a small dent , a few feet ahead of amidships.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

I want me A Brent Swain design so bad it Drives me nuts!


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

The longest journey starts with a single step


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

Brent Swain said:


> The longest journey starts with a single step


I know, and my wife is like, "What's all this metal boat stuff you're talking about lately?" we already have a sail boat and 40 foot dive boat that keep us broke, Plus our skiff's and dingy's, kayaks. I'll get her to come around. Or, when we sell the dive boat, I'll just do it. This shipping container stuff might be the the nail.


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## smallboatlover (May 11, 2011)

capt you make ur living with the dive boat? i kinda wanna live the way your are but when im old enough lol.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

No. That Boat barley pay's for it's self, I make my living on tug boat. I used to make my living with that boat, but it's not steady, weather pending, and I did'nt offer myself major medical, health, dental, a 401k, investment options, a 2 week on 2week off schedual or room and board, so I became a merchant marine. The day I sell that buisness is the day I get my life back.


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

It's not uncommon for shipping containers to float just a few feet below the surface for a few hours or so on their way to the bottom, meaning there is no way you'd see it on a dark night and you might just notice a strange wave pattern during the day - if you're looking that way. Given that they are usually only lost during storms, you'd have to be sailing through a shipping area a day or so after a storm, so the chances of hitting one are slim, but, like the chances of hitting a whale or a sunfish, it does happen..

A nice old timber motorboat was crossing Whitsunday Passage one night late last century when it was sunk by the periscope of a submarine on route to Cairns. Stuff really does happen out there.


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## AncientTech (Jun 16, 2012)

Capt.aaron said:


> I want me A Brent Swain design so bad it Drives me nuts!


Just to show you what is right down the street....

Sailboat

PS: Confirmed all the red you see in the picture is dust...

As far as shipping containers, down here in south FL I have heard a few mentions of container collisions just as when I was in Houston. Apparently if your near shipping lanes and also near jet streams you somehow end up with them submerged and displacing between 25k-50k! That is a lot of brick wall to run into submerged in the middle of nowhere. I only know of about 4 stories including a well publicized one a few years ago down here. I am sure someone that hangs around freight centers or large charters could tell you plenty if you are in such an area.

Best quote on the subject "How do you know it wasn't a whale?" "Because whales are not pointed with sharp edges!"


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## KIVALO (Nov 2, 2011)

I saw someone's front porch, including stairs, in LI Sound once. It was right after Hurricane Bob. 

Brad
s/v KIVALO


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## aa3jy (Jul 23, 2006)

Some years ago,probably about 12 years,I was helping bring back a boat from the Virgin Islands when about 3 days out from the Chesapeake Bay entrance we came across what we thought at first was a small house on the horizon. As we approached closer it was a container floating at about 45 degrees angle. We tried to sink her but the doors where already ajar and we determined it would probably continue to float due to the fact it was a reefer type of a container with plenty of insulation. We did notify the Coast Guard of its position.

If someone still has old Ocean Navigator magazines of by gone years there where pictures that where published.

Bottom line the container did not show up on RADAR. If the seas where rough we would have never seen it.

Update: I found the date, 10/96, that I had submitted the photos of our encounter with the container to Ocean Navigator. Don't know if these original photos can be reused in another publication...


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## jimjazzdad (Jul 15, 2008)

I have never hit nor seen a shippng container at sea. I have seen container ships make port (Halifax) with a stack of containers capsized on deck - clearly a few were lost. I am sure 100s of these things are lost at sea every year. The majority sink, but some, with a load of Nike shoes or reefers with foam insulation, float just at or slightly below the surface. Probably one reason we don't hear more about sailboats hitting them is that "Dead men tell no tales". It gives me chills just thinking about it. The shipping companies should be required to design shipping containers with hydrostatic flooding valves and enough ballast to ensure they sink promptly, but what is the likelyhood of our miniscule sailing lobby of ever getting that to happen? :hothead


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

> The shipping companies should be required to design shipping containers with hydrostatic flooding valves and enough ballast to ensure they sink promptly, but what is the likelyhood of our miniscule sailing lobby of ever getting that to happen?


I would imagine it is also a hazard to other smaller vessles that transit shipping lanes (or areas to the lee of shipping lanes): fishing boats, tour boats... And they are going much faster.


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

jimjazzdad said:


> The shipping companies should be required to design shipping containers with hydrostatic flooding valves and enough ballast to ensure they sink promptly, but what is the likelyhood of our miniscule sailing lobby of ever getting that to happen? :hothead


Hydrostatic valves add complexity and weight and GPS locators cost money, but IIRC, shipping containers are generally fitted with metallic (zinc?) plates designed to corrode galvanically on sustained contact with seawater to encourage them to sink if lost overboard - but it can take up to 24hrs for this to happen hence, until then, the thing is a semi-floating menace.

Remember that it isn't just the "miniscule sailing lobby" that lost containers affect - it's everybody. Hitting one of these things can do enough damage to another container ship to need repairs in dry dock - taking said ship off-line for days/weeks with the resultant loss in money for the shipping company.


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

chrisncate said:


> So... if shipping lanes are pretty well established and followed, and we have decades upon decades of shipping history on the seas... it's safe to assume the sea floor under these lanes are stacked fairly deep with containers?
> 
> I wonder if anyone has ever surveyed the sea floor under the major lanes and taken a container count or estimation.


Thar's a big ocean out there! 

Seriously, if you're interested in actual facts about what containers do and don't do when washed overboard, Google "Rena scoop.nz" and read through the salvage reports over the last almost-year since that mixed-goods container ship went aground in NZ.

Let's just say that, a little like hitting an Emu at 100kph, stuff went everywhere..


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

chrisncate said:


> So... if shipping lanes are pretty well established and followed, and we have decades upon decades of shipping history on the seas... it's safe to assume the sea floor under these lanes are stacked fairly deep with containers?
> 
> I wonder if anyone has ever surveyed the sea floor under the major lanes and taken a container count or estimation.


Containers don't fall off ships all that often. If they did no one would ever get their stuff. And, as Hartley said, it's a big ocean. Besides, shipping lanes aren't exactly like freeway lanes; two ships going from San Francisco to Yokohoma might have tracks that diverge by tens or hundreds of miles, depending on the weather, other traffic, et cetera.


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## Flybyknight (Nov 5, 2005)

That's my greatest fear

dick


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

I fuel up container ships for a living via tug and barge, and it takes 4 to sometimes 8 hours. And as I work the barge and pump's and hose and valves, the ship off loads and unloads the containers. right over my head. And I can tell you they do it in a hury, and those union long shoreman crawling all over the containers, ratcheting them in place, are not cautious, and don't seem to really care about what they are doing. I just completed my 200 ton master this year, and stability was the main subject matter. we were told that letting some top containers go in a big sea was a common occurance if the roll peroid or transverse meta center, was compromised. I'm doing a Mearsk ship in the morning. I'll ask one of the deck hands what the truth is.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

I've never hit a shipping container, and in fact I've never seen one floating in the shipping lanes in more than 6 decades plying the Atlantic's busiest shipping channels. I think, however, that I've encountered just about everything else. 55-gallon drums are not at all uncommon to see drifting with the currents. Smacked one at 4-a.m. about 10 years ago while traveling east of Washington Canyon. I was aboard a 40-foot Ocean and rigging lines for marlin fishing.

About 4 years ago I hit a railroad boxcar just above the Susquehanna Amtrac Bridge while motoring my 27 Catalina toward the main channel. Apparently, the boxcar had fallen off the railroad bridge during a wreck two decades earlier and it's about 4-feet beneath the surface at low tide. The impact caused the boat to heel over to nearly 30 degrees and took a quarter-size chunk out of the keel's leading edge. Sure got my attention.

The last time I went fishing offshore of Virginia we encountered a massive trash slick that stretched as far as the eye could see in both directions. It consisted mainly of plastic trash, but there were some things mixed with the plastics that could have inflicted some serious damage to the relatively thin hull of a fiberglass sailboat. One of the items I saw was a huge picnic table that was just beneath the surface. I'm confident it weighed at least 200 pounds and if struck on the corner it would have pierced a sailboat's hull.

Cheers,

Gary


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## aa3jy (Jul 23, 2006)

SlowButSteady said:


> Containers don't fall off ships all that often. If they did no one would ever get their stuff. And, as Hartley said, it's a big ocean. Besides, shipping lanes aren't exactly like freeway lanes; two ships going from San Francisco to Yokohoma might have tracks that diverge by tens or hundreds of miles, depending on the weather, other traffic, et cetera.


Here's a container ( one year later)that was found in BC..some of you maybe interested in what was in side..

Shipping container with Harley Davidson, golf clubs and camping equipment inside found washed up on BC shore from Japanese Tsunami more than a year later | Mail Online

If and when the original poster finishes his story..some of you may change your mind about on what maybe lurking out there...


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"Containers don't fall off ships all that often. "
The numbers that are tossed about are 2,000 to 10,000 and ten thousand is by far the more commonly given number. That's every year. No one in the industry really wants to discuss is because that would make them look bad.
Still, if "only" two thousand unlit, unmarked cars were abandoned on the highways of the world every year, there would be a loud noise raised about it.

Maybe John's article will have a more precise count in it.


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## johnnyquest37 (Feb 16, 2012)

Hellosailor posits that 10,000 shipping containers go over the side each year. It appears that these containers eventually sink or wash ashore. Let's just say they stay afloat for an average of six months. This means we've got about 5,000 containers floating out there at any given time. A standard shipping container is aprx. 40' x 8' resulting in a maximum surfaced area of 320 square feet. Five thousand of these results in 1.6 million square feet of hazard. Total surface area of the world's oceans are 3.6x10 the 15th power square feet. Dividing container sf by ocean sf ocean sf results in 4.4x10 to the negative 8th power or 0.00000000044 percent chance of encoutering a container at any given time. 

This is very generalized, of course. Containers are certainly more concentrated near the shipping lanes and ocean currents may tend to concentrate them even further. 

Not trying to pooh-pooh the concern of hitting one, but given the odds, it does not surprise me that we don't hear many stories of folks running into shipping containers.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"Hellosailor posits that"
No, he does not. In fact he never knowingly "posits" anything. He's merely stated that there are repeated estimates provided by other sources that give that number. That's not "posit"ing.

Now, johnny, let me also explain to you that your math is trash. You're comparing the surface area of shipping containers to that of the whole ocean. Totally invalid comparison, since the shipping containers we are concerend with are lost "in the shipping lanes" not randomly dispersed about the oceans. If you want to compare surface areas in order to estimate the chance of a collision, FIRST you need to examine the surface area of the shipping lanes where the containers are "launched". Then you need to extrapolate forward with current and drift, to determine the surface area of the places where they will go. Next you need to determine where recreational boaters go, because in some places they are basically IN those same shipping lanes, while in other places (like the North Sea) recreational vessels are damn rare.

If you do not adjust your "surface area" for dispersal and use patterns, but simply gob it all up, then the math is junk. Your answer will be off by many scales of magnitude.

What are my odds of digging up a corpse when I dig in the sand at the beach? Oh, well, we start with the size of a coffin, and ignore the fact that most of those are in designated graveyards, not just randomly scattered about?

Since Jimmy the Greek died, I haven't trusted the _odds _on anything.


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## johnnyquest37 (Feb 16, 2012)

Cool your jets hellosailor. I meant no offense with the numbers you sugggested. I actually use your numbers as vaild. And, I also pointed out that my "trash" math was a generalization and that the containers would likely be more concentrated in the shipping lanes.

You, sir, should learn some manners.


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## johngeo (Jul 25, 2012)

Brent, would like to interview you for my article.

Could you please email me at johnjgeoghegan at yahoo dot com

Look forward to hearing from you.

Kind regards, jg

By the way, 'Captain Aaron' says hello!


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

There are hundreds of millions of containers shipped every year. Ten thousand is a pretty small number in comparison. 

Even if one limits the area to that of the theoretical "shipping lanes", one would have to search a huge area of the ocean floor to find many containers. You might also note that shipping containers are not particularly robust. Their "skin" is fairly thin sheet metal, and not particularly corrosion resistant at that. A ship, made of nice thick plate steel, may last many decades on the ocean floor, but I doubt a shipping container, made mainly of corrugated sheet metal, would have nearly such longevity.


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## jimjazzdad (Jul 15, 2008)

SlowButSteady said:


> There are hundreds of millions of containers shipped every year. Ten thousand is a pretty small number in comparison.
> 
> Even if one limits the area to that of the theoretical "shipping lanes", one would have to search a huge area of the ocean floor to find many containers. You might also note that shipping containers are not particularly robust. Their "skin" is fairly thin sheet metal, and not particularly corrosion resistant at that. A ship, made of nice thick plate steel, may last many decades on the ocean floor, but I doubt a shipping container, made mainly of corrugated sheet metal, would have nearly such longevity.


Anyone who has been up close & personal with shipping containers (I have) will tell you they are not lightly built - depending on the size and type, they can weight 5000 - 8000 lbs empty and over 65,000 lbs loaded. They seal pretty well (only some have vents) since they are designed to keep cargo dry. Though the corrugated walls may only be 1/8" plate (not exactly sheet metal...), the corners are built much heavier to permit stacking them 4 -6 high. Did I mention they have sharp corners? In the event that one of these containers is afloat, even waterlogged but not sunk, it can drift for many miles on the currents, so even far from shipping lanes they are a danger. As to longevity, they won't rust out for years - they are designed for salt water environment. IMO, next to tropical storms, shipping containers are probably one of the most dangerous things a blue water sailor can encounter.


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

jimjazzdad said:


> Anyone who has been up close & personal with shipping containers (I have) will tell you they are not lightly built - depending on the size and type, they can weight 5000 - 8000 lbs empty and over 65,000 lbs loaded. They seal pretty well (only some have vents) since they are designed to keep cargo dry. Though the corrugated walls may only be 1/8" plate (not exactly sheet metal...), the corners are built much heavier to permit stacking them 4 -6 high. Did I mention they have sharp corners? In the event that one of these containers is afloat, even waterlogged but not sunk, it can drift for many miles on the currents, so even far from shipping lanes they are a danger. As to longevity, they won't rust out for years - they are designed for salt water environment. IMO, next to tropical storms, shipping containers are probably one of the most dangerous things a blue water sailor can encounter.


Relative to a ship they are not very substantial. And I've been close to, around, on top of, and even inside, many, many shipping containers. The corrugated skin is usually made of 1.5 to 2.0 mm sheet metal. The frame is quite a bit more substantial, but even that is pretty mild steel. They may last for some time OUT of the water. But, immersed in sea water 24/7? I doubt they will last terribly long.

The original question (or the one I was answering, anyway) concerned whether or not there are piles of them under "the shipping lanes". The most likely answer is "no". Shipping lanes and their traffic are much more diffuse than most people suppose; it's a HUGE ocean; there aren't that many "walk about" containers relative to the size of the ocean floor; some of them do float for quite a while, but most sink fairly quickly (very few are air-tight), and thin mild steel on the ocean floor doesn't last forever (although the plastic crap the container was holding might well out-live all of us).


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

johnnyquest37 said:


> Hellosailor posits that 10,000 shipping containers go over the side each year. It appears that these containers eventually sink or wash ashore. Let's just say they stay afloat for an average of six months. This means we've got about 5,000 containers floating out there at any given time. A standard shipping container is aprx. 40' x 8' resulting in a maximum surfaced area of 320 square feet. Five thousand of these results in 1.6 million square feet of hazard. Total surface area of the world's oceans are 3.6x10 the 15th power square feet. Dividing container sf by ocean sf ocean sf results in 4.4x10 to the negative 8th power or 0.00000000044 percent chance of encoutering a container at any given time.
> 
> This is very generalized, of course. Containers are certainly more concentrated near the shipping lanes and ocean currents may tend to concentrate them even further.
> 
> Not trying to pooh-pooh the concern of hitting one, but given the odds, it does not surprise me that we don't hear many stories of folks running into shipping containers.


Could you run the math on this. What is the chances of two ships colliding if they steer their course without regard to any other ship on the sea? You will need to take the suface area of all ships on the ocean at any point in time as you did with shipping containers.

I think you will find the odds of ships colliding is about the same as the odds of hitting a container. Does this mean we should do away with a ships look out, navigation lights, AIS, and RADAR?


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Interesting Video:


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

How would you like to hit one of these bad boys:

Losing Cargo in rough sea - YouTube

Notice the size of these tanks. They dwarf several containers lashed towards the stern of the ship. And they float.


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## johnnyquest37 (Feb 16, 2012)

casey1999 said:


> Does this mean we should do away with a ships look out, navigation lights, AIS, and RADAR?


No.

Your analogy is interesting but there is difference between one moving object striking a floating hazard and the chances of two moving objects (ships) striking each other, especially if the moving objects are all converging on constricted areas, such as ports.

It's a really big ocean. I am not attempting to downplay the hazards associated with colliding with a shipping container. Am merely suggesting a possible reason why we almost never hear about these collisions. We read more stories about whales and sailboats colliding (hmmm, two moving objects) or pirates coming aboard than we do about colliding with containers.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

johnnyquest37 said:


> No.
> 
> Your analogy is interesting but there is difference between one moving object striking a floating hazard and the chances of two moving objects (ships) striking each other, especially if the moving objects are all converging on constricted areas, such as ports.
> 
> It's a really big ocean. I am not attempting to downplay the hazards associated with colliding with a shipping container. Am merely suggesting a possible reason why we almost never hear about these collisions. We read more stories about whales and sailboats colliding (hmmm, two moving objects) or pirates coming aboard than we do about colliding with containers.


Yea I don't really get it why we do not hear of more collisions. I imagine large cargo ships must hit the containers quite a bit, but do the containers just bounce off ? I would guess they would. They other thing there are really not that many sailboats that sail blue water that would encounter containers. Most sailboats spend their lives tied to a dock or limited coastal sailing.

The other thing, over the last 30 years the amount of container cargo has gone way up, along with number containers lost overboard. Where will we be in the next 30 years?


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Flybyknight said:


> That's my greatest fear


No doubt about it, the prospect of a direct hit on the corner of a container at hull speed in the middle of the night is a terrifying prospect, indeed... However, IMHO such a fear is so wildly out of proportion with the likelihood of it ever occurring, it's essentially meaningless - the odds of encountering a container are probably only marginally higher than being struck my a meteorite offshore, for example... (grin)

Just seems there are SO many more likely events to worry about, to me... Certainly, a lightning strike, or being attacked by a whale occur with greater regularity... Not to mention, simply falling overboard, or driving one's boat into a charted obstruction...

I'm guessing the OP will come up very short in his search for first hand accounts regarding encounters with containers... I've never heard one, myself... In all the years of folllowing events such as the ARC, Caribbean 1500, all the Bermuda Races and RTW races, I can't even recollect a confirmed instance of any of those fleets even _SIGHTING_ a floating container, much less hitting one... And in all my years of running up and down the East coast, I can't recall a CG Securite' or Notice to Mariners ever broadcast regarding the position of a known container spotted offshore... The last time I can remember such a broadcast, was in the wake of the spring storm about 5 years ago in which the Little Harbor FLYING COLOURS was lost returning from the islands, and a broadcast was put out that a number of containers had been lost from a ship passing Hatteras...

Plus, such losses generally occur in places like Great Circle routes across the North Atlantic and Pacific, in wintertime or off season - hardly the places or times of year where yachts are to be found in any numbers... Sorry, but containers are simply not falling off ships going in and out of the New York Bight, in the summertime...

Always fascinating to see how sailors actually assess such risks and fears, and what measures they actually take to allay or diminish them... In this case, very little, it would seem...

Is your fear of hitting a container, for example, sufficient to cause you to heave-to throughout all hours of darkness? Or even, to maintain an absolutely rigid forward lookout schedule? One thing we tend to forget, is how little time the typical Mom & Pop cruiser actually spend watching the water directly ahead of them when sailing offshore, it's pitifully small in most cases, the odds of hitting a container awash or submerged in full daylight would only be slightly less than doing so at night, would be my guess...

Proportionally very few cruisers choose to sail metal boats as a defense against containers... Same is true with the choice of a boat with a forward collision bulkhead... One of the simplest, easiest things to do on even most stock production designs today, is to turn the space under the vee-berth into a watertight/collision compartment... For the life of me, I cannot fathom why every production builder out there does no do this as a matter of course, but it is certainly an easy retrofit for any owner to make to the majority of existing boats out there... Yet, I'm guessing a show of hands here would indicate that very few have bothered to do so...

Or, how about carrying a form-fitting collision mat aboard, that could quickly cover the forward part of the hull, within a foot or so of the waterline, from the stem to the leading edge of the keel? Custom made when the boat is out of the water, easily and quickly fixed with just 3 pre-rigged attachments - one at the stem, and one at each aft corner on the side... And yet, I imagine the number of cruisers out there who have bothered to take such a measure in response to their fear of hitting a container is miniscule...

Makes for an interesting discussion, perhaps, but the likelihood of ever hitting a container seems almost non-existent, to me... Having said that, however, I'm not so sure I'd be very keen to race to Hawaii anytime in the foreseeable future, that's for sure...


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## okawbow (Feb 15, 2007)

I recently finished reading a book called Awakening Waves, by Richard LeVine. He ends the book when he hits a submerged shipping container and holes his Tayana 37, while motoring from Holland to Denmark during daylight hours. He said he never saw it before the collision. The boat sinks and he spends several hours in a partially flooded liferaft. He said the container was just below the surface, and stopped his boat when hit. He sank very fast, and didn't have time to try and stop the water coming in. This incident happened about 1990. The book just came out in recent years.

Last year, I sailed over 3500 miles in the Gulf, and up the east coast, and didn't see any containers, but did see several logs that I'm glad I missed.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Just makes that 3G Radar system I'm installing worth even more. Obviously, it cannot detect submerged objects, but it can detect partly submerged object, even small ones the size of crab pots. 

Cheers,

Gary


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

I see 4x4's and lumber all the time and wonder if I hit one of those just right what It would do.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Same here, Aaron. And, I've hit lots of them while sailing 5 to 7 knots in Chesapeake Bay - never had any damage, though. The ones that really scare me are the telephone pole size logs that are wedged into the bottom at one end and the other end hides just beneath the surface. I've been fortunate in that during more than a half-century on the water I have not hit one, but I've come damned close. Coral heads get my undivided attention as well - skimmed over the top of one just west of the Marquesses Keys near the wreck of the Atocha. Took a chunk out of the outboard's skeg.

Cheers,

Gary


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

Ya, coral I can anticipate, the wayward log surfing in the gulf stream will catch me with my droors down.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Jon, there have been reports of vessels lost at sea after "struck a submerged object" which was presumed to be a shipping container, but they certainly could have been Volkswagens swept out to sea. One never knows.

In the 90's the USCG had some problems trying to catch a go-fast boat smuggling in LI Sound. Eventually, you guessed it, running at 40? 60? knots in the dark, they stuffed a deadhead and sank, problem solved. In coastal waters you get those. Offshore? What can you say beyond documented reports of "struck a submerged object" ? 

"A ship is safe in the harbour, but that's not what ships are for"

And then again, if you're on the Rainbow Warrior and there are Frenchmen around, you may not be safe either.


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## aa3jy (Jul 23, 2006)

Came across this Bad Boy on a trip from the American Virgin Islands back in 1996

Flickr: Photos & Video from aa3jy

We where about 3 days out from the Chesapeake Bay entrance.

More story to follow...


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

aa3jy said:


> Came across this Bad Boy on a trip from the American Virgin Islands back in 1996
> 
> Flickr: Photos & Video from aa3jy
> 
> ...


Jeezus


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

hellosailor said:


> Jon, there have been reports of vessels lost at sea after "struck a submerged object" which was presumed to be a shipping container, but they certainly could have been Volkswagens swept out to sea. One never knows.


You're right, of course, I'm not suggesting it cannot or never happens... It's just that being holed or sunk by a collision with a container seems so far down the list of reasons yachts are abandoned or lost offshore offshore, as to be almost statistically insignificant... Dropped or damaged rudders, rig failures even as minor as that suffered aboard TRIUMPH, or simple seasickness/exhaustion/fear are - if recent events are to be any guide - FAR more likely to be the cause of the loss of a yacht offshore...

Here are a couple of links to collisions reported by Vendee racers, but even Riou was the only example of a "confirmed" sighting of a container, at the speeds these guys and girls are traveling, an impact with even a modest bit of flotsam could damage a daggerboard...

PRB has hit a container - Vendée Globe

THE BOATING REPORT - THE BOATING REPORT - Avoiding Submerged Containers a Test for Sailors - NYTimes.com

Again, the primary point of my reply was towards risk assessment, and what offshore sailors are really doing to mitigate their exposure to such a perceived risk... Frankly, precious little, it would seem...

One of the great ironies of this discussion, is that I think an argument could be made that most cruisers today stand a far greater chance of encountering another _ABANDONED YACHT_ along the routes being sailed offshore, than a lost container that has yet to sink... Just last fall, 3 yachts were abandoned between the NE and Bermuda, yet none of them were scuttled by crews who clearly had the means to do so, and fully aware that other sailors would be following in their wake... So, sailors griping about shipping companies not installing some sort of hydrostatic or tracking devices on containers, could do well to look to their own in terms of setting an example, it could be suggested...

the sad final chapter for TRIPLE STARS, for example...

Latitude 38 - 'Lectronic Latitude


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## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

Somebody said containers are lightly built? I have two of them for storage, made of Corten Steel and definately not lightly built... I sure as hell wouldn't fancy smacking one at hull speed...


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

casey1999 said:


> Yea I don't really get it why we do not hear of more collisions. I imagine large cargo ships must hit the containers quite a bit, but do the containers just bounce off ? I would guess they would. They other thing there are really not that many sailboats that sail blue water that would encounter containers. Most sailboats spend their lives tied to a dock or limited coastal sailing.


This has already been covered a few times in this thread, but, no, the containers don't "just bounce off" large cargo ships - a straight-sided stationary object (like a floating container) hit by a fast-moving blunt object (like a bulbous bow doing +15kts) usually splits open and sinks, leaving the odd dent or 5 in said bow to be fixed up at the next dry dock. They might be strong, but they ain't that strong..

Most containers sink, some float for a day or so (and not much longer), then sink or get washed up someplace but none hang around for months waiting to sink the next hapless yachtie that happens to wander along.

If you seriously want to know exactly what happens when shipping containers are lost overboard, google "Rena disaster" and read all about the container recovery operations - with pictures, descriptions of contents and stats on containers sunk/floating, etc, etc.. ad nauseum.


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

CharlieCobra said:


> Somebody said containers are lightly built? I have two of them for storage, made of Corten Steel and definately not lightly built... I sure as hell wouldn't fancy smacking one at hull speed...


Charlie,

I pointed out that _compared to ships_ containers are _relatively_ lightly built. The thickness of the skin of a container is in millimeters, while that of a ship's hull is measured in inches. My point was they wont last nearly as long as a sunken ship on the ocean floor.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Hartley18 said:


> This has already been covered a few times in this thread, but, no, the containers don't "just bounce off" large cargo ships - a straight-sided stationary object (like a floating container) hit by a fast-moving blunt object (like a bulbous bow doing +15kts) usually splits open and sinks, leaving the odd dent or 5 in said bow to be fixed up at the next dry dock. They might be strong, but they ain't that strong.


When I said bounce off, I was refering to the damage that would be done to a cargo ship by the container. I did not mean to address the damage to the container itself. I agree with you though, the container would probably be split open and sunk.
Regards


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

SlowButSteady said:


> I pointed out that _compared to ships_ containers are _relatively_ lightly built. *The thickness of the skin of a container is in millimeters, while that of a ship's hull is measured in inches*.


I call absolute BS on that one: A cargo ship's outer skin is typically 8mm or 10mm plate, maybe increasing to around 16mm around the bows if they're designed for northern routes. Just like a plastic stinkpot, the lighter they are the quicker they get to their destination and the cheaper they are to run.

A ship's hull can - most certainly - be damaged by hitting a shipping container. Dented? Yes. Holed? On rare occasions, a small one in the outer hull, yes. In danger of sinking? No.



SlowButSteady said:


> My point was they wont last nearly as long as a sunken ship on the ocean floor.


Given that there's a lot less metal in a shipping container than there is in an entire ship, I guess you're right - but it a lot depends what was in it. In ideal conditions, a shipping container will still survive on the sea floor for a very long time.


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

Hartley18 said:


> I call absolute BS on that one: A cargo ship's outer skin is typically 8mm or 10mm plate, maybe increasing to around 16mm around the bows if they're designed for northern routes. Just like a plastic stinkpot, the lighter they are the quicker they get to their destination and the cheaper they are to run.
> 
> A ship's hull can - most certainly - be damaged by hitting a shipping container. Dented? Yes. Holed? On rare occasions, a small one in the outer hull, yes. In danger of sinking? No.
> 
> Given that there's a lot less metal in a shipping container than there is in an entire ship, I guess you're right - but it a lot depends what was in it. In ideal conditions, a shipping container will still survive on the sea floor for a very long time.


Right. A shipping container has a skin a millimeter or two thick. A ship's hull is at least five times that (often 10 or more times), and usually of a higher quality. The point is that shipping containers probably don't last nearly as long on the ocean floor as do sunken ships.


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

Chris,

Your citations all refer to how containers supposedly behave (according to their manufacture's propaganda) under conditions to which they are normally exposed; that is, out of the water. We're talking about what happens when these containers (primarily made of steel a millimeter or two thick) is submerged in seawater 24/7 year after year. These are very different environments. After decades underwater my bet is that they will be well on their way to becoming part of the surrounding environment.


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## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

I've seen a few containers on land in the Bahamas. After a few years they don't look so hot. Tetanus shots come to mind...


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## CapnBilll (Sep 9, 2006)

I can tell you what happens when you hit debris. I hit a log once, it knocked my my speed sensor out requiring a panic run down below to insert the plug in the now 1 inch diameter hole. 

Another time I ran over a submerged patio deck railing, stairs and all, while moving my boat after a hurricane, damaged prop, cutlass bearing, scraped hull. 

Both occasions the thin cheap fiberglass hull held up far better than one would expect.

When hitting a shipping container, I would expect simular damage to a hard grounding.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

CapnBilll said:


> I can tell you what happens when you hit debris. I hit a log once, it knocked my my speed sensor out requiring a panic run down below to insert the plug in the now 1 inch diameter hole.
> 
> Another time I ran over a submerged patio deck railing, stairs and all, while moving my boat after a hurricane, damaged prop, cutlass bearing, scraped hull.
> 
> ...


Well, a hard grounding on something like a Bahamian ironshore, perhaps... (grin)










I think your assessment is overly optimistic... Hitting an immovable sharp edge made of steel dead on at hull speed, I'd sure want to be in something more substantial than "a thin cheap fiberglass hull", or pray that the contact was simply a glancing blow, that's for sure...


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

JonEisberg said:


> Well, a hard grounding on something like a Bahamian ironshore, perhaps... (grin)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Jon,
That is a nice looking yacht. What make? Did you add the inner stay sail and runners?
Regards


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Ok, say I'm really scared now. Thinking about trading my fiberglass boat for a corton steel boat. Curious how well the steel boat will hold up to corrosion (especially in the bilge area where nooks and cranies will normally have at least some moisture and maybe salt water). What is the life expectancy between glass and steel boats?

Somthing on the lines of this:

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...g=en&slim=broker&&hosturl=alawai&&ywo=alawai&

Regards


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

casey1999 said:


> Jon,
> That is a nice looking yacht. What make? Did you add the inner stay sail and runners?
> Regards


Thanks... she's an old (Hull #1) Chance 30-30, designed by Brit Chance, and (over)built by Allied in 1970, and heavily modified by yours truly... "Heavily" is the operative word, there, she's probably 5-6 inches down on her original lines... (grin)

Yes, originally a sloop rig, but with a huge foretriangle common to the early IOR rule, easily converted to a slutter rig...


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

Not only will the ocean chew you up and spit you out in seconds, the debris out there will turn you into pile of masticated sh!t quicker than you can spit. period, explination point, period. Expect the worst and hope for the best. Ready for any thing....we hpoe.


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

To the OP There is a book I believe its called confessions of a long distance sailor. If I remember correctly he hit a container on the corner at hull speed on his Pacific Seacraft 31 1200 miles from shore. He fractured the glass but easily made it to a haul out facility for repairs. There is a difference in how boats are built I guess his was one of the better ones.


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## aa3jy (Jul 23, 2006)

johngeo said:


> I'm working on an article for a popular sailing magazine about lost shipping containers as a potential sea hazard.
> 
> As a result, HAVE ANY OF THIS FORUM'S MEMBERS EVER HIT, SEEN, OR ENCOUNTERED A FLOATING SHIPPING CONTAINER WHILE SAILING?
> 
> If so, I really want to hear your story! jg


What ever happened to this "article" or was this a ruse to collect email addresses?


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## azguy (Jul 17, 2012)

Would be nice to know, but as I understand it, it can take months from finished article to published in mag.

My trainer writes articles for fitness mags and it takes 4/6 months from photoshoot to published piece...


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## aa3jy (Jul 23, 2006)

azguy said:


> Would be nice to know, but as I understand it, it can take months from finished article to published in mag.
> 
> My trainer writes articles for fitness mags and it takes 4/6 months from photoshoot to published piece...


Well aware of the dates as I have published pixs in Ocean Navigator. Look at the date of the original poster's request for info...


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## svHyLyte (Nov 13, 2008)

johngeo said:


> I'm working on an article for a popular sailing magazine about lost shipping containers as a potential sea hazard.
> 
> As a result, HAVE ANY OF THIS FORUM'S MEMBERS EVER HIT, SEEN, OR ENCOUNTERED A FLOATING SHIPPING CONTAINER WHILE SAILING?
> 
> If so, I really want to hear your story! jg


You might want to look up Liz and Andy Copeland of Bagheera (Google). They banged into an awash container in the Med with their Beneteau First 38. Although the bow was pretty badly damaged, flooding was very limited and manageable because Andy had the forethought to have injected high density foam into the dead spaces abaft the stem under the anchor locker. They have a pretty interesting story.

FWIW...


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## Philzy3985 (Oct 20, 2012)

Heard a story of sailors that hit one off the coast of southern CA. It was floating with the top just below the surface of the water. On a calm enough sea, it didn't cause boils on the surface or any texture to look odd or stand out. They apparently hit it with a monohull, keelboat. Stopped dead, motored back and had the keel repaired. 

I think I read somewhere that a 20' catamaran was screaming across to one of the channel islands and hit "something" that dissapeared right afterwards. It crushed the daggerboard on the leeward side and really damaged the hull. They suspected it was too hard to have been a whale, and assumed it must have been a container, but didn't see it.

My own dad claims to have hit one that sunk and was in shallow enough water that the bottom of the keel hit the top of the container, again stopped and the boat rounded up to the wind. Twisted a huge chunk of the keel, but it was repaired in a few days.


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## peterchech (Sep 2, 2011)

I heard this is a huge issue now after Sandy...


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Capt.aaron said:


> I know, and my wife is like, "What's all this metal boat stuff you're talking about lately?" we already have a sail boat and 40 foot dive boat that keep us broke, Plus our skiff's and dingy's, kayaks. I'll get her to come around. Or, when we sell the dive boat, I'll just do it. This shipping container stuff might be the the nail.


If your wife needs to be talked into a steel boat, you can show her this photo that I like to call "bow bulb vs steel boat":









A couple years I was working with an ER doctor who mentioned that he abandoned ship into his liferaft after sinking 2 days east of Hawaii. I got up at 4:00am and brought him coffee at the end of his shift so I could hear his story.

Long, very good story made short; he had a well-found STEEL hulled boat and struck "something" in the night and began rapidly flooding. He also had an engine driven dewatering pump (not just a "T-fitting" on the impeller) and several electric bilge pumps. Dispite all that he sunk after an hour or more of trying to stay afloat.

Even with a steel boat and an engine driven bilge pump the sea can still get you..... He never saw what he hit but figured it had to be a container.

MedSailor


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## deltaten (Oct 10, 2012)

Mebbe I oughta build a boat outta a CONEX? It'd sail like a stone; but would hold up well to boat strikes :bites tongue:  Would also decrease the odds of hitting a CONEX by orders of magnitude 

Stumps, logs and debris scare the bejeezus outta me. Alla the crap floating down the local rivers and creeks ends up in the Bay , if not snagged along the way. Perhaps stock and emergency patch kit aboard??


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

I never worry about hitting logs anymore. Not since I fitted this red puppy to my bow. It also seems to frighten off those pesky "stand-on" vessels as well...










MedSailor


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## steel (Sep 1, 2010)

jimjazzdad said:


> The shipping companies should be required to design shipping containers with hydrostatic flooding valves and enough ballast to ensure they sink promptly, but what is the likelyhood of our miniscule sailing lobby of ever getting that to happen? :hothead


Would it be cheaper for the shipping industry to subsidize the cost of metal sailboat hulls to match the price of fiberglass hulls?



> Ok, say I'm really scared now. Thinking about trading my fiberglass boat for a corton steel boat. Curious how well the steel boat will hold up to corrosion (especially in the bilge area where nooks and cranies will normally have at least some moisture and maybe salt water). What is the life expectancy between glass and steel boats?


I never liked the idea of being in a fiberglass boat out on the ocean. Ideally you want aluminum, but it is expensive.

The life expectancy of a smaller sized steel hulled boat with a length in the 30's is about 20 years in salt water, with an average paint job on the inside. The reason for this is that's about how long the paint on the inside holds up. Since insulation, wooden shelves, and other structures are installed inside the boat blocking access to the inside of the hull, painting the inside is impractical. If I had a steel boat, I would gut the inside until the hull was completely exposed everywhere. I would make shelves out of welded steel and get rid of any insulation. The floor would unbolt and everything would be made to be opened to expose every inch of the hull. Now it's just a matter of going through and spraying paint along all the stringers every few years. Now the boat should last more than 50 years. Welding patches on the outside won't be a problem anymore since I could easily repair the burnt paint on the inside.

The outside is easy to take care of. The electrical cathodic protection of the hull (usually from zincs) prevents rust from forming under water in places where the paint has chipped off. Places above the hull which are exposed can be patched up. Great care must be taken when hauling the boat to ensure the hull is clean and free of barnacles which can ruin the hull if left to sit that way. Steel can be sand blasted and repainted from scratch fairly easily if the equipment is set up. There is no gel coat to worry about.

So, stick with fiberglass and stay near your life raft and near shore, or get an expensive aluminum boat, or get a steel boat that has a high quality paint job on the inside with no spray on insulation, or gut the inside and learn to sail rugged, or get a big steel boat where all the inside objects can be moved around to expose the hull for maintenance.



> Just last fall, 3 yachts were abandoned between the NE and Bermuda, yet none of them were scuttled by crews who clearly had the means to do so, and fully aware that other sailors would be following in their wake...


But they could leave the anchor light on with their solar power. No need to sink it. If it does sink, it will go down fast since it's not filled with inflatable balls or something. Someone will be happy to find it and claim it. But I do think something needs to be done about people who claim abandoned vessels, salvage anything of value, and then let it loose to end up as a wreck on a shore. I have the same problem with scrap collectors who remove part of the thing that has value and then leave the worthless part in your front yard and the trash truck won't take it, nor will anyone else now.


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## svtrio (Mar 25, 2003)

While motor-sailing 25 miles off the east coast of northern Florida in my 34' Prout Snowgoose catamaran during the 1980s, the outdrive prop struck a drum between the hulls. Weather conditions were cloudy during daylight, and the drum, which apparently was floating just beneath the water, wasn't visible. The prop ripped into the drum and snagged it. Freeing the drum from the propeller was difficult (I was solo). The only damage to the boat was a bent and torn prop.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Don't let irrational fear stop you cruising!

Aa3jy's photo is a good one, they do exist. But if they were at all common we would ALL have photos of them. His was taken in 1996 thata 15 years ago!

Most reports are something UNSEEN that goes bump in the night. Vastly more likely to be a current buoy, a oil drum etc.

You will lose your life if you stay on shore.... Your cruisng life. So don't let irrational fear stop you as there are enough real concerns that stop cruisers!

Trees are something that is vastly more likely to bump your boat however most have rotted and a bump not a bang. 

So please do not give up your dream of cruising because of Internet crap.


Mark


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## souljour2000 (Jul 8, 2008)

If you hit a partially-submerged container chances are you've been picked by Lord Neptune for a change of boat and possibly a new incarnation if your at speed when you hit...but such is life...I'd be more worried when I'm driving I-75 than when sailing across a shipping route after a blow....at least the shipping container isn't going 80 mph...


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

steel said:


> Would it be cheaper for the shipping industry to subsidize the cost of metal sailboat hulls to match the price of fiberglass hulls?
> 
> I never liked the idea of being in a fiberglass boat out on the ocean. Ideally you want aluminum, but it is expensive.
> 
> ...


Man,what a crock!
My steel boat is 28 years old,and as good as the day I launched her. Where I have cut steel out, the epoxy and steel under it has always been as good as the day I launched her. Older one's I've built are in just as good a shape. The reason some rust from the inside out is because many
( Foulkes, Fehr, Amazons ) have zero paint on the inside, but bare foam over only primer, or bare steel. Foam is not protection for steel . Three coats of epoxy tar, on wheelabraded and primed steel will give you no serious corrosion in a lifetime.
Most of the critics of steel are those who have never owned a properly built and painted steel boat , but are just passing on bar room rumour from plastic boat salesmen.

My building methods have reduced the building time of a hull and decks to a tenth of that of more traditional methods, reducing the cost of a new hull and deck to well below the cost of building in fibreglass.
If you tried to live aboard your uninsulated steel boat in winter, it would be coated inside with a layer of ice for weeks on end. When you applied any heat, it would rain harder inside than outside, from condensation, and the only warm place would be within 3 feet of the stove. I've seen people try doing it your way, and the above describes the result. 
Best get your advice only from those with experience in what you are planning, not from speculators and armchair experts. 
I've lived very comfortably aboard my steel boats for 36 years, mostly in BC, year round.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

I have often T-boned moored log booms at hull speed. The easiest way to tie up to them.No worries. Some steel hulls have only 1/8th inch hull plate, and lots of framing, which makes it much easier to tear a hole in them. Many like Foulkes and Fehr hulls are welded one side only, often the outsider,with most of the weld ground off to make it look pretty. Many are painted outside only with zero paint inside, which rusts thru quite rapidly. I prefer frameless 3/16th plate, well epoxied inside. My boats have hit barges, including the corner, at hull speed, with zero damage


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## xymotic (Mar 4, 2005)

To the OP, send Minaret a PM on cruisersforum. He worked on a nordhaven that had hit a partially submerged container. The damage was impressive.


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## cherev (Sep 6, 2000)

Cruising sailors follow the winds, but containers fall off the motor vessels that go direct point-to-point, and then those containers likely wind up in mid-ocean gyres. In writing such an article, could be you should interview fishermen, not sailors?

The greater dangers for sailors are all those rocks close to shore, and the power-boaters who think that alcohol and speed are hot and easy twin sisters.


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## CaptainQuiet (Nov 19, 2012)

In the cargo container world is there any serious discussion about making the hinges on the containers to where they would open up when submerged in water and thereby sinking? This came up in a discussion while we were delivering a boat to the BVI and had just sighted something mysterious floating just below the surface, we determined it was a small pile of plastic with accompanying eco system. but it started the stories flowing none the less.


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## aa3jy (Jul 23, 2006)

CaptainQuiet said:


> In the cargo container world is there any serious discussion about making the hinges on the containers to where they would open up when submerged in water and thereby sinking? This came up in a discussion while we were delivering a boat to the BVI and had just sighted something mysterious floating just below the surface, we determined it was a small pile of plastic with accompanying eco system. but it started the stories flowing none the less.


From my experience with such...

Flickr: aa3jy's Photostream

This was a Reefer container..floats even if the doors where ajar. We tried to sink it. I have more pixs to be shown if the OP will publish the article that he promised.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

cq? 
"In the cargo container world is there any serious discussion about"
Since they have no legal liability for flotsam, why would they waste the time of day discussing ways to lower their income and raise their expenses by refitting a couple of million cargo cubes?
Bottom line? Until and unless international law makes them liable for damages, and until and unless those damages cost more annually than refitting containers, nothing is goinjg to happen.
The same way that the US airlines only attend to safety issues when the cost of paying out death settlements surpasses the cost of the changes to prevent them. That's FAA-approved accounting with the value of the average death something like $3.2? $3.8? million dollars. If you can save one passenger-life per year, but it costs $4 million dollars to do that, you don't do it. Simple math.
These are businesses.


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## CaptainQuiet (Nov 19, 2012)

Scary photo. I could see how that could ruin your midnight sail. Did you try to open the doors? C'mon lets see some more photos.


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## aa3jy (Jul 23, 2006)

CaptainQuiet said:


> Scary photo. I could see how that could ruin your midnight sail. Did you try to open the doors? C'mon lets see some more photos.


Yes... Ask the OP for the promised article for more pixs


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

hellosailor said:


> cq?
> "In the cargo container world is there any serious discussion about"
> Since they have no legal liability for flotsam, why would they waste the time of day discussing ways to lower their income and raise their expenses by refitting a couple of million cargo cubes?
> Bottom line? Until and unless international law makes them liable for damages, and until and unless those damages cost more annually than refitting containers, nothing is goinjg to happen.
> ...


That is what is known as Cost/Benefit analysis and all corporations have teams of actuaries and lawyers working on those kind of calculations all the time. 

It ALWAYS comes down to $$$$. Concepts such as right, wrong, duty, morality etc. have absolutely nothing to do with corporate governance.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

SloopJonB said:


> That is what is known as Cost/Benefit analysis and all corporations have teams of actuaries and lawyers working on those kind of calculations all the time.
> 
> ce.


And there's been no known deaths from containers. Where when something falls from a plane it either coins someone on the head or sets off the string of events as the Coke bottle in The Gods Must Be Crazy. Which South African film if you have not seen you should beg borrow or steal.

It was from the 1980s? And I still thing of the scene with the Land Rover and the gates and the winch and the tree. Funny film.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> And there's been no known deaths from containers.


I wonder how many of those unexplained disappearances of small boats were for that very reason. We'll never know.


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## xymotic (Mar 4, 2005)

Was it foam lined? Empty?


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## richardb123 (Apr 11, 2009)

Hee in BC we prefer to hit logs. One lightweight racer on the way back from the Vic-Maui a few years back hit a log and promptly sank.


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## richardb123 (Apr 11, 2009)

My fear is one is just submerged below the surface. So much for "engineered" hulls with very thin walls and a grid to stiffen. They will puncture like a tire.


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## xymotic (Mar 4, 2005)

richardb123 said:


> Hee in BC we prefer to hit logs. One lightweight racer on the way back from the Vic-Maui a few years back hit a log and promptly sank.


Yeah, the logs/deadheads here in the PNW are pretty brutal. I can't for the life of me understand how/why people have go-fast boats out on the sound going 60+

I'm real happy to have slowed down to 6 with a steel hull :laugher


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## cherev (Sep 6, 2000)

It might be cheaper to make shipping containers that sink, but what about all those plastic toys and other buoyant crap they might contain? The top of the container would need to release (explosive bolts?) so those decayed plastic bits could later clog the craws of sea-birds.

May be the real cure is to just stop buying stuff made in China? And save some American jobs?


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## xymotic (Mar 4, 2005)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> And there's been no known deaths from containers.


That didn't pass the smell test... them things are killers.
https://www.google.com/search?q=shi...98a76417492f817&bpcl=39650382&biw=827&bih=718


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## Atlas (Aug 21, 2012)

I suppose it's obvious that MarkofSeaLife meant that there were no recorded deaths due to a sailboat hitting a floating shipping container.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"May be the real cure is to just stop buying stuff made in China? And save some American jobs? "
Right, isolationism, that's been proven to work. (Not.)

The US forcibly opened trade iwth Japan, a closed kingdom. The Chinese actually BURNED all their fleets, which we are now suspecting ranged halfway around the world and included vessels of incredible unprecedented size. That didn't work any better than their Great Wall. 

Or Hadrian's Wall in England. Damned barbarians keep slipping by...

Save American jobs? OK, but a chinaman's gotta eat, too. You'd save more Ameican jobs by opening gen-you-whine American franchises to serve those billion hungry chinamen lunch. In China.


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## CBinRI (May 17, 2004)

Hartley18 said:


> It's not uncommon for shipping containers to float just a few feet below the surface for a few hours or so on their way to the bottom, meaning there is no way you'd see it on a dark night and you might just notice a strange wave pattern during the day - if you're looking that way. Given that they are usually only lost during storms, you'd have to be sailing through a shipping area a day or so after a storm, so the chances of hitting one are slim, but, like the chances of hitting a whale or a sunfish, it does happen..
> 
> A nice old timber motorboat was crossing Whitsunday Passage one night late last century when it was sunk by the periscope of a submarine on route to Cairns. Stuff really does happen out there.


I've always suspected that the thought of hitting a shipping container is one of those things you hear talked about disproportionately to the amount of times it actually happens. Sort of like great white sharks in swimming areas. Because it is such a terrible thing if it happens, it preys upon our feelings of powerlessness and is probably thought about a whole lot more than it is likely to happen.

In the rare (but not unheard of) event that they do fall off a ship, like someone else said, they probably don't float all that long (even below the surface) before they sink. I would venture to guess that your chances of hitting a whale woud be far greater than hitting a storage container.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

Atlas said:


> I suppose it's obvious that MarkofSeaLife meant that there were no recorded deaths due to a sailboat hitting a floating shipping container.


I don't suspect there would be many recorded.

If you hit a shipping container at speed and sink in a couple minutes their will not be much to record.

Now that tacking systems are getting more common you could looks for boats that decelerate from 10+ knots to 0 knots then stop transmitting minutes later. Not proof of a container hit but certainly a possibility if the track is clear of land.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

hellosailor said:


> "May be the real cure is to just stop buying stuff made in China? And save some American jobs? "
> Right, isolationism, that's been proven to work. (Not.)
> 
> The US forcibly opened trade iwth Japan, a closed kingdom. The Chinese actually BURNED all their fleets, which we are now suspecting ranged halfway around the world and included vessels of incredible unprecedented size. That didn't work any better than their Great Wall.
> ...


Sell'em Hostess - they can use one of their shuttered melamine factories to produce the "cream" filling.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Atlas said:


> I suppose it's obvious that MarkofSeaLife meant that there were no recorded deaths due to a sailboat hitting a floating shipping container.


Thank you. Yes that's what I meant. 



CBinRI said:


> I've always suspected that the thought of hitting a shipping container is one of those things you hear talked about disproportionately to the amount of times it actually happens.
> ... I would venture to guess that your chances of hitting a whale woud be far greater than hitting a storage container.


Yes, you are absolutely right.

The thing I hate about these threads is they are just so wrong. But they instill fear into people, especially the womenfolk. And then you get the threads where guys say their wives won't go sailing. It's because morons who know nothing promote this sort of drivel.

Whales are a much more likely thing to hit. Surprisingly because of the greenies movement keeps telling me they virtually don't exist.

I have never got close to one in the last 35,000 nms, but doing a trans atlantic in 1999 about half way over I came on deck in the morning and the watch was watching these three quite LARGE whales asleep dead ahead. As it wasnt my watch, but I was Mate, so I said, "bring it up a bit" to miss their tails, and the dope on the helm held course. I said it again and he did nothing so I had to run to the crew cockpit and grab the wheel and spin it. I'm sure the keel brushed the tail of the biggest one. He didnt do anything, but we would have hit him in the gizzards. I don't think it would have hurt the boat but an angry tail smack would have!

So anyone that doesn't want to go cruising because of containers floating is a fool. If they are out there you won't hit one. I guarantee it!

 
Mark


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## aa3jy (Jul 23, 2006)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Thank you. Yes that's what I meant.
> 
> Yes, you are absolutely right.
> 
> ...


Got lots more pixs..

Flickr: aa3jy's Photostream

..just wish the OP of this thread would publish his promised article that I had submitted these pixs too..

Oh..by-the-way..my wife was aboard when these pixs where tak'n..


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

aa3jy said:


> Got lots more pixs..
> 
> ..


Thats the same pic.

no one was killed.

It was 16 years ago.

I am not saying they are not there. there was one picked up iin the PNW a few weeks ago. it came from Japans tsunami.
so yes they are there. but not enough to kill. or none have....


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

CBin-
" they probably don't float all that long "
You'd be surprised at what floats and how long it floats. Anything boxed with foam styrene inserts, like all electronics and appliances, has that buoyancy forever. Big old heavy TV sets with leaded glass picture tubes? Yeah, they had positive buoyancy forever because of the volume in the picture tube. I guess sailors should be thankful for flat screens, but thosde are usually wrapped in plastic bags, guess what will trap air and keep them floating too? Cargo cube full of snack foods in poly or foil bags? Float forever, those bags won't pop or soak. 
I plopped my first pair of "guaranteed waterproof" binoculars in a sink to make sure they really were, while they were still new & easily returned. Guess what? THEY FLOAT. Because of all the air inside the heavy metal and glass tubes.
Got a box full of sockets and wrenches? Heavy steel? Sure, now check out the blow-molded platic case they are in. Floatation again!
For a couple of seasons Dave Letterman had a "Will it float?" segment on. You'd be surprised at what floats, and how long it keeps floating. 

David-
Tracking systems? "Hello, this is OnStar, we've been notified of a sudden airbag deployment on your yacht. Have you hit a shipping container?"
See now, the only reason that can't happen is because your yacht doesn't have a rearview mirror installed yet, does it? (VBG)


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## solarwindsailor (Aug 28, 2014)

If they keep losing containers in the ocean, then the ocean sea level will rise. It is like putting too much sand in a bowl of water, the water will rise. Someone should be responsible to go retrieve them.:laugher


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## Woodfinatic (Jan 2, 2014)

did someone watch that movie ( all is lost) and get the idea that ur just gonna happen to hit a big crate full of shoes?


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

A Fukushima container with a Harley in it made it to a beach in B.C.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

SloopJonB said:


> A Fukushima container with a Harley in it made it to a beach in B.C.


Another lose for the Pacific Gyre.

Theres been a steady stream of junk from F to BC, hasnt there? Surprised its still happening.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Another lose for the Pacific Gyre.
> 
> Theres been a steady stream of junk from F to BC, hasnt there? Surprised its still happening.


Speaking of which...

This is a strange one. First time I've ever heard of hitting floating debris that subsequently became _AIRBORNE_, and took out a radar unit... That's a tough one to picture, seems it would have been more likely to have been something that had some structure or projection floating well above the water to begin with...

Sure, someone was on watch at the time... the question might be, was he _AWAKE ?_

)

Yet another reminder, you don't ever want to have to make that transfer from a small yacht being abandoned at sea, to the deck of a container ship...



> "Whatever we hit had destroyed the front of our starboard ama. The unknown object then apparently became airborne and slammed into the starboard side of the main cabin with sufficient force to detach two cabin lights and knock much of the lining off the inside of the hull. We also noticed a 3-foot hairline crack that was dripping water by the V-berth. Two of the starboard windows were damaged, presumably from the flexing of the hull. The forward starboard tramp and forward starboard rigging were dragging in the water. The force of the impact even managed to dislodge the radar unit mounted several feet above the waterline aft of everything. Whatever we hit must have gotten at least 10 feet in the air and flown 20 feet back.
> 
> Latitude 38 - 'Lectronic Latitude


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

Coming from the land of driftwood I could imagine a situation where you hit a small tree lying semi submerged. Stump end does the hull damage and top swings up and over to wipe out the radar.


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## rockDAWG (Sep 6, 2006)

johngeo said:


> Have you ever hit a shipping container?


I have not. My buddy Robert Redford did in his movie. 

Good luck on your report. Hope it is informative and unbiased.


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## aa3jy (Jul 23, 2006)

rockDAWG said:


> Good luck on your report. Hope it is informative and unbiased.


See:
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/ocean...ost-ocean-navigator-subforum-if-possible.html

Clay
s/v Tango


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## abudoggie (Mar 12, 2014)

Zombie thread from 2012 springs to life...


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

johnnyquest37 said:


> Hellosailor posits that 10,000 shipping containers go over the side each year. It appears that these containers eventually sink or wash ashore. Let's just say they stay afloat for an average of six months. This means we've got about 5,000 containers floating out there at any given time. A standard shipping container is aprx. 40' x 8' resulting in a maximum surfaced area of 320 square feet. Five thousand of these results in 1.6 million square feet of hazard. Total surface area of the world's oceans are 3.6x10 the 15th power square feet. Dividing container sf by ocean sf ocean sf results in 4.4x10 to the negative 8th power or 0.00000000044 percent chance of encoutering a container at any given time.
> 
> This is very generalized, of course. Containers are certainly more concentrated near the shipping lanes and ocean currents may tend to concentrate them even further.
> 
> Not trying to pooh-pooh the concern of hitting one, but given the odds, it does not surprise me that we don't hear many stories of folks running into shipping containers.


Great intent on this, but it's not a surface area issue. Surface area would apply to the odds of a single, ocean-striking meteor hitting a boat, since the meteor slices through the "plain" of the ocean.

You boat is going to "slice through" the surface of the ocean/bay from one side to the other.

So, just rattling this off without too much thought in it... the odds of hitting a container is proportional to the length of your voyage, the number of containers afloat in the waters that you travel, the beam our your boat (kind of), and the beam of a shipping container (kind of). (Since shipping containers could be broadside to your path or not, use the average of the lenght and width of a shipping container. I'm ignoring height for this, although a container could be tilted, etc.) The odds are inversely proportional to the area of the waters you travel. (This along with the number of containers actually gives us the container-density).

Actually, the odds aren't exactly proportional to the beam of the boat and the beam of container. That would be true for one if the other had minicule width like a floating lobster pot buoy. Noodling it a bit, it's more proportional to the two beams added together.

So if I may do this with estimates and in the metric system to make the math easy...

. . . . . . . . . . TripLength * NumbConts * (BoatWidth + ContWidth)
. . . . .odds = ----------------------------------------------------------------
. . . . . . . . . . AreaOfWaters

Trip = 1,000km
Number of Containers currently floating in your ocean = 1,000
Boat width = 2 meters
Shipping container width = (13m + 3m)/2 = 8 m
Breath of ocean = 1,000km 
Area of Ocean that containers are distributed across = 1,000km * 1,000km

. . . . odds = (1,000km * 1,000 * 10m) / (1,000km * 1,000km)

canceling out one set of "1,000km":

. . . . odds = (1,000 * 10m) / 1,000km

. . . . odds = 10km / 1,000km

canceling the "meters" from both side and dividing by 10

. . . . odds = 1 / 100

So if there were 1,000 containers floating in an smallish ocean, and you were to sail across that ocean, the change of hitting one is 1 in 100! (Even 100 containers floating in your small ocean would mean a 1 in 1000 chance of hitting one!)

*Obviously there aren't that many containers still floating or there are fewer sailboats making such long trips. Either that or we just explained some of the sudden disappearances of sailboats. *

(And yes, we could use the boat's smaller beam at the waterline instead. Like I said, this is quick noodling.)

----

Another way to picture this is to look at the area of your path, much like the area cleaned by a single push of a vacuum cleaner. And then compare that with the area of the ocean. If you path is longer, you have a greater chance of hitting something.

Hope this helps with a better approximation of the math. Not sure it's complete yet, but it's a bit better, and a bit scary.

Regards,
Brad


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## Krisan (Apr 25, 2013)

So, the next question is has anyone found any cool stuff in a lost container? Or survived the inspection of one.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

What are the odds of someone going totally off-topic in a response to a thread that died nearly two years before they came across it? Higher or lower than the odds of someone sailing with an improper watch and hitting flotsam of any kind?

I'm so confused, ever since Jimmy the Greek died, I haven't been able to get firm odds on anything, and these days, Jimmy won't even give odds through Harry Houdini's ghost!

*"Die, Vampire, Die!"*


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

More than 50 years plying the Atlantic and never saw a single one.

Gary


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## aa3jy (Jul 23, 2006)

Krisan said:


> Or survived the inspection of one.


Yes...

http://www.oceannavigator.com/March-April-2013/A-legendary-offshore-danger/

I've had my photos published in several mags...


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

aa3jy said:


> Yes...
> 
> A legendary offshore danger - Ocean Navigator - March/April 2013
> 
> I've had my photos published in several mags...


Photo from your link. Great shot!










MedSailor


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## aa3jy (Jul 23, 2006)

Yes..that was a very interesting trip.. saw a sub launched missile...a hatch board in a verticle position that looked like telephone pole bobbing up and down on a moon lit night..whale breath (blow hole)that smell like bad shrimp...

There is a lot out there if one keeps his eyes,ears and nose alert....


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

This is one of those things that is best left un-thought.

In my little dinghy, on a little lake... a shipping container is unlikely, but logs, or tree stumps when the water is down... is a possibility.... and since I am kind of a greenhorn, not much time is spent looking for anything beyond the shore and other boats...

On the other hand, it is a possibility, like getting hit by lightning... more like lightning in a box. And it doesn't sound like there is a lot you can do to avoid it.


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

A good friend of mine hit a loose piece of dredge pipe while sailing in the Mississippi Sound. he didn't sink but it brought him back to Jesus.

An Aegis cruiser hit something one night south of Horn Island, while running at really high speed and holed itself. It barely go back to the dry dock at Ingalls. That was a warship.

I used to have a picture of a big old steel float, about five feet in diameter and about 15 feet long that washed up on the beach at Long Beach, MS one time. I would have hate to have hit it.

There is stuff out there.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Guess we should all get ahold of BS for a Brentboat - they shrug that stuff off like confetti.


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