# SAGA YACHTS



## Bluesmoods (Jul 8, 2001)

From What I have seen and heard, The Saga 409 is the boat of boats in many respects. I know it is a new boat and not many around at this time. 

I was looking at a Tartan 4100 too. The Saga seems to be a little more unique, a "finer" and more exclusive boat for lack of better words with tremendous blue water potential. 

There does not seem to be a whole lot of discussion on here regarding Saga Yachts which is puzzling to me. Are there any Saga owners or dealers on here who might contribute information on their experiences with the boat? Is it as great a boat as it seems to be? Is it to far out there in terms of price and quality to be talked about in generic sailing discussion groups??

Anyway, I am looking for a new live aboard (2 of us) come summer of 05'' and this boat just seems to be it (for me) from what I have seen and learned so far. There are no dealers advertised in the Annapolis or New York areas and Yacht World turns up a blank on new Saga Boats. Does anyone know of an individual or dealer who has Saga Yachts that one could climb around on? Does anyone know what the price of a Saga 409 in US dollars is?

Thanks. . . 

Chris T.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Saga 409 is a comparatively new model so it is hard to comment upon in any real detailed way. At best I can give a few first quick impressions. 

Looking at the numbers, it is a comparatively heavy boat with a minimal ballast ratio, not much water tankage but a lot of fuel, and a whole lot of windage and weight aloft which is not too great when coupled with a limit of positive stability of only 120 degrees. 

The interior layout is one that is well suited to coastal cruising but is less than ideal for offshore work given the large deck areas and minimal storage. While the styling of this boat is very jazzy, the 409 appears to lack the level of ventilation that is necessary for warm weather cruising.
The deck layout and rig are not really too great for offshore as well. The huge cockpit, and large plexiglass areas, absense of a bridge deck make for a boat that would be prone to downflooding. The mainsheet located on a forward arch neither gives the ease of control, low friction and minimal loadings of in cockpit boom end sheeting nor the simplicity of midboom sheeting. The rig is really a strange set up lacking the ability of a more traditional cutter to fly a staysail, and lacking a fractional rig sloop''s ability to quickly depower. 

With all due respect, I would be interested in your thoughts on why you think that this is a boat with "tremendous blue water potential". 

The last that I heard these boats are available through Caan Yachts in Annapolis. http://www.cannyachts.com/cannyachts/cannyachts_2.html

Respectfully,
Jeff


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## Bluesmoods (Jul 8, 2001)

Jeff_H :

Interesting comment regarding the Saga 409. I was impressed with this boat at the Newport show. Have you been aboard? They did a real nice job. The fit and finish is top flight to say the least. I currently live aboard and have logged just a few blue water trips including CA to Maui and return. 

Other boat designs I like include the Elan and the Tartan 4100. What are your thoughts on the Elan 40 and the Elan Impression series? How would you compare the Elan product to the Saga product? Does Tartan fit into this picture somewhere?


Appreciate your comments.. Thanks much

Tom K.


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## Bluesmoods (Jul 8, 2001)

Thank you for your response Jeff and Tom.. 

Hope to get additional feedback.. 

Jeff,the boat does offer good storage capacity and is not bad on the Tankage. No boat offers the very best of everything. 

To answer your question, here are the numbers on the Saga 409 which I think make it a very competitive (not in terms of racing) boat.

The Displacement to LWL is 189. This is looking pretty darn good to me.. The Hull speed should be just over 8 knots.. I''ll take it.. The sail area to displacement ratio is 17.64 Again; I''ll take it any day. The LWL to Beam is 2.86. Really, no major problem here at all. Although I don''t like to use a motion comfort index and believe there are just to many variables to give this factor a realistic relevance, the industry text books say on this boat that a motion comfort of just on the south side of 30 is not bad at all. Moving right along, the capsize ratio is considered good at 1.86. 

The Boat has a high ballast ratio which really should give the boat plenty of stability. In addition, with a angle of positive stability beyond 120 degrees, the boat should have a very high righting moment. 

The very positive construction features go on and on. And so could I regarding this boat. Yes, I like it and have spent time studying the design and construction specification. I have owned a Cal, a C&C and a Catalina.

I am really looking for on here is some real world information from Saga owners or a dealer who has had experience with the Saga boat and company in general, as you could review and discuss numbers for ever.

Thanks again, 

Chris_T


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

That''s a hell of a capsize ratio! Is this for saga 409?

That''s better than Island Packet 40. Also better hull speed, SA-D and
almost identical motion comfort (I considered this impossible for a fin keel
to achieve relative to a modified, full keel). Moreover, the capsize ratio
is almost identical to Cape Dory 40! And the CD''s motion comfort is only
slightly better than Saga''s.

VERY impressive. If this is the Saga, sign me up for one. Just make sure
they build it w/ dorades and lots of opening, stainless steel ports!

John


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## jack_patricia (May 20, 2001)

This sounds to me like Jeff and Chris are describing two different boats.

Chris, in this day of email, SSB Nets, electronics, navigation ''flight planning'' and other such activities, the 409''s chart table strikes me as too small for a 40 footer, the corner into which its squeezed too stuffy, and the space available for radios, electronics and such to be too limited. I mention this because I''ve been amazed at how important that area is on a boat intended to be cruised.

Jack


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

You might try the Saga Owners list on this site - http://www.sagaowners.com/index2.cfm
Another source is Mike Locatell at Discovery Yachts in Seattle, a former Saga dealer who sold a number of 43''s. He might be willing to share why he stopped carrying them.

Having raced and cruised on a friend''s Saga 43, I''d take it any day over an IP.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Hi Jack...

I more or less agree with you. 

I have a 35'' boat now with a small navigation table that really never gets used. The days of large plotting chart tables are over for the most part. A few manufacturers still utilize a larger set up within their designs. 

The Navigation station in it''s entirety on the Saga 409 however is quite accommodating... Not the Nav table itself, but flush mount space for equipment such as VHF, SSB, repeaters, Laptop, satellite radio, stereo, weather station, and so forth. Not only is there room for all this at the Nav station, but it is all so easily accessible should one ever need to go behind the panels for any reason.

I strongly believe in cutting edge technology, system redundancy and the power of a PC integrated into the navigation system. It is just amazing what happens after it is all said and done. I have equipped a couple of boats like this (C&C) and not only are the owners more than happy, there is a foundation of safety which is un-compromised. 

It is important to note that at no time should electronic equipment replace paper charts and appropiate manuals as they should always be kept onboard. The captain and crew should be very familiar with the geographic areas and routes in which they are operating. 

Tom K.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Columnist has said:

"That''s a hell of a capsize ratio! Is this for saga 409?

That''s better than Island Packet 40". 

Refering to Chris T. statements on the Saga new boat: "...the capsize ratio is considered good at 1.86. 
"The Boat has a high ballast ratio which really should give the boat plenty of stability. In addition, with a angle of positive stability beyond 120 degrees, the boat should have a very high righting moment". 

Those are misleading arguments. You can simply not assess a boat stability with old formulas like capsize ratio or ballast ratio. Besides, a boat can have a very high righting moment and be inadequate as an ocean going boat. You can not confuse initial stability (stiffness) and final stability (safety stability). A boat can have (as a lot of the racing boats have) very good initial stability and poor final stability.

I would say that the Saga has a better initial stability and the Island Packet has a much better final stability (safety satbility).

I give you one example of the inadequacy of the ballast ratio as a means to assess stability :

The Saga 409 has a 37% 0f ballast ratio. The Regina 38 (a Sweedish ocean going DS sailboat) has only 32%, having apparently the worst stability of the two .
The Saga (according to Jeff_H) has only an AVS of 120º and the Regina has a much better AVS of 134º.
The Regina has also a very impressive STIX number of 46. I don''t know the Stix number for the Saga, but I bet that it is a lot smaller.

Paulo


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Chris T., about informaton on the Elan 40 and Elan Impression 43 I suggest a download of both boat tests at http://www.yacht.de/yo/powerslave,id,10,nodeid,10,ps_lo,.html

that''ts the site from the biggest and in my opinion better Europe sail magazine. It''s in German, but you can use an Automatic translator (fron Google, for instance).
Normally they publish graphically the complete stability curve of the boat, and that, if you know how to read it, says a lot, specially when combined with information on the speed of the boat in several points of sail (given also graphically ).

There you can also download several other boat tests, regarding boats that are close to the ones you are looking for, like the Wauquiez Centurion 40, the Confortina 42, the Dehler 39 and 41, the Dufour 40, the Grand soleil 40, the Hanse 41, the Malo 39 and the C-yacht 11.30.

Each download costs 1,5 Euros and are in PDF format, with lots of photos, drawings and graphics.
First you have to fill and send the "Click and Buy" file, and then it is easy.

Hope to be of help

Paulo


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I saw the 409 here at the fall show and was quite taken with it. the design is superb. I made inquiries about the yard and had my attorney do a little due dilligence. Saga it seems is a house of cards. The yard is in hawk up to it''s eyeballs, with much owing to it''s own lawyers who sometimes charge them 15% interest. The salesman was complaining that boats were''nt moving on the floor. Darryl said the 48 on the floor has been there over a year when it should have taken 13 - 14 weeks. The other boats are sitting on the floor with no cash available to finish them. The brave few who have ordered new 409''s will see the old boats now go out the door with the help of the cash from their deposits and after they have paid for their boats will have to wait for new deposits so that money can be used to finish their boats. Sound like the dying days of a boatyard. The crew has been kept on for appearances but two months of wages with no production can never be recovered. The boat at the show it turns out actually belongs to the owner Allan Poole who is keeping it out of the country. Poole has already blown off a bank, many suppliers and a few "partners" in the first Saga bankruptcy years ago.

Buyer beware!


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## Bluesmoods (Jul 8, 2001)

F/Y/I

Reg, I wonder what prompted your need to publish this obituary of Saga 
Marine on the web? 

I will assume that your motives were to genuinely warn someone and not to spread half truths with the intent of damaging 
a small struggling (as are many small boat
builders in these hard times) boat builder like Saga.

I would like to give a professionals view of your info. First off, though recently retired, I spent 7 years representing Saga 
as one of my lines. I have also represented
Catalina, Tartan, Jeanneau and Bavaria. Being in the industry I have spent time and am familiar with a good number of other large and small sailboat builders 
and their operating methods. Allan and I have certainly had our differences during my time representing him but I have also seen the effort he and his crew expends to deliver a quality product.

Having purchased a 43 in 2000 and put over 11,000 miles on it, most offshore, I feel qualified to attest to the quality of that product. Relative to his former financial difficulty that resulted in a 
restructuring I would only ask you to examine the difficulties of 
starting a boat building operation from scratch and evaulating the 
risk involved. 

If you go back a few extra years you will find that both Tartan and Sabre have similar problems in their background. Thatshouldn''t take away from their current ability to provide a quality product at a fair price. Relative to Allan owning hull #1 of the 409, I know for a fact he has 
been desiring to own one of his fine products for a long time. He didn''t keep that fact secret at the shows. He was proud of his ownership as well he should be. What better faith has someone in his 
product than to put his family aboard and travel portions of the Atlantic Ocean? 

Relative to his keeping the crew on for appearances I don''t think that ludicrous comment is worthy of a response.

If you check the December issue of Sail magazine you will see mention of a friend and customer of mine being first to finish in the ARC Europe rally from Bermuda to the Azores in his Saga 43. These are fast 
well built cruising boats that Allan and company are building. I have yet to talk to an Owner of one of the almost 70 boats Saga has produced who felt he hadn''t gotten true value in the vessel he purchased.
On the other hand I do feel that any person
plunking large amounts of money down on any boat should protect themselves as best they can from any unforeseen circumstances. Having said that, it would be a shame if 
someone was to take your statment literally and deny themselves the 
satisfaction of sailing their Saga past its
competitors. Wishing you good luck in your in your boating selection.

Keith Reynolds, S/V CAMELOT


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## Bluesmoods (Jul 8, 2001)

F/Y/I/ (From Saga Mail list... )

Dear Reg,

I''m glad you liked our new Saga 409, but am appalled by the blatant attempt of this email to do Saga Marine harm. 

I have built up the company over the last ten years, and provide a high 
quality boat that has brought many people great pleasure. This email of 
yours seems deliberately organized to defame the company and hurt 
everyone here at Saga. 

It misquotes employees who have nothing to gain or loose, and the entire content is misleading. Generally, it is competing brokers who make statements like this, to
steer prospective Saga customers into the products they represent. It does appear that Saga''s new product is so well received in the marketplace that it is threatening other boat companies and their brokers.

Over the last two years many industries, not only boat builders, have suffered because of the failing U.S. economy. Whereas we have had a difficult two years, we have managed to bring out two brand new 
excellent products, both of which have been
recognized by our peers. Anyone wishing to buy one of our new products can do so and keep their money entirely safe. Anyone having any concerns can speak to me 
personally.

The reference made to the first Saga bankruptcy is a cheap shot. This 
was a reorganization of the company in agreement with the bank, the suppliers, and the partners, and was reported in "Practical Sailor" 
magazine. 

With regard to our current financing, do
you think our lawyers would be lending us money if they thought they were at risk? 
The yard is not "in hawk up to its eyeballs" as you suggest.

As far as my owning a Saga product, I have not hidden this fact. My wife and I own Saga 409 Hull#1.

We bought it from the company, and it''s 
quite common practice for a boat company owner to sail their own boat. 

With the short summers and limited sailing in Lake Ontario, as well as the tax advantages of sailing out of country, we made the decision to take our boat down South. The boat has sailed over 2000 miles since leaving the factory in September, attending the two east coast boat shows, and it will be on display at the Miami "Strictly Sail" Boat Show in February.

Once again, I would like to reiterate that we at Saga build fine yachts and our customers'' money is secure. We have a great reputation with our 
customers.

Sincerely,

Allan Poole
President
SAGA MARINE


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## tonys1 (Jan 12, 2005)

Dear Reg
I am the proud owner of a recently built saga
35 hull #11 
All boat builders need to function under the stress of producing the product at the right price: meeting needs of the customer, suppliers and staff. The factory is always open for you to view, the workers are skilled, available and willing to give you time. As for the boat, my expectations have been meet. I have owned four boats and visited many builders. The Saga is built with attention to detail, details that only an experienced builder can add to its production proccess. My Saga has features which are just not available on other production boats. In short I am now the proud owner of a custom boat which could only be replaced by Saga Yachts. 
Alan does not need to justify himself or his factory. Go see for yourself, you will be impressed.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Bluesmoods/Keith,

I certainly agree with a lot of the good things said about Saga, and know from firsthand knowledge of their quality and design -- even the standard equipment list is impressive (a neighbor owned a Saga 43 for several years). I''m looking forward to seeing the 409 (maybe at the Philly Boat Show?)

I''m glad that you posted Alan''s response (but wish that he''d done it directly), since Reg obviously needed his "hand slapped" in public. I don''t believe that he could defend some of his non-substantiated comments by a desire to save a fellow sailor grief. Anyone who makes accusations/comments like his (e.g., the Ponzi Scheme method of using new boat deposits to finance the finishing of existing orders, as well as hyperbole such as "house of cards" and "in hock up to its eyeballs" (which had an almost gleefully-vindictive tone) should have supporting information (of course, he can blame it all on an over-zealous attorney).

It''s also curious that he hasn''t responded to Alan''s reply that was posted three weeks ago. C''mon, Reg, if there''s things that we should know, tell us -- but substantiate them (and if you were mistaken or overzealous, you own Alan an apology).

As for Alan''s owning a Saga -- I''d be surprised if he owned anything else, and it is testimony in his faith in his own product.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Proof that Saga Yachts is a sham*

It's easy for Allan to own a Saga when he does it with other people's money, as he's always done.
http://saga409.blogspot.com/


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Reg...that was a two year old post in case you didn't notice. As a matter of fact YOUR last post was here on this thread two years ago. Do you just show up to slam Saga??
Saga is now being produced by PSC and hopefully that will resolve the financial issues since it is really a fine boat. Welcome back...hope you have more to add to the forum.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Most boat builders do experience financial difficulties at some point in their lifespan, even the most successful ones... 

Two posts over two years, both slamming saga seems to indicate that Reg has an axe to grind with them, and Sailnet is really not an appropriate forum for personal vendettas IMHO.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*saga 409*

our previous boat was a 2002 tartan 3500 which we thoroughly enjoyed. We have looked, with open eyes at the larger boats over the years including the various Saga at the Annapolis show. If it were not for the narrow beam I would opt for the Saga 43 which I believe is a much better sailing and live aboard boat than the 409. For us, the 409 appeared more of a production boat and not as well made as the 43. Crusader yachts in Annapolis now sells the brand. If you have the extra money you might want to consider the Outbound 44 which has caught our eye so to speak. Excellent boat. David


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

David...I think this thread is dead. Be advised that SAGA is owned by Pacific Seacraft which recently filed for bankruptcy. Buyer beware at the moment!


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## seabreeze_97 (Apr 30, 2006)

"Stability is like money," Castro continued. "You can never have enough."

The 409 has a ballast/displacement ratio—37 percent—at least the equal of all of her cruising competitors and carries that ballast in a modern bulb keel that's hydrodynamically clean and lift-effective, which works to create a very low center of gravity. This boat relies less than most contemporary cruisers on beam for initial stability; that allows her to achieve ultimate stabilty "well in excess of 120 degrees" according to her designer. "A narrow boat is more easily-driven, more seakindly, more mannerly. If you have enough stability in your pocket you can get all of that."

Interesting comments that tend to fly in the face of some other comments listed here. Things that make you go "Hmmmmmmm."


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