# Give AIS a rest



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

This was a new phenomenon. Over these last few weeks, I've repeatedly heard sailboats hailing commercial vessels, having identified the commecial vessel via AIS. Generally, a good practice to establish contact and avoid confusion.

However, more often than not, the sailboat noted their AIS suggested they would "come close" or some such and either implicitly or, in one case, explicitly asked the tanker to alter course. One even hailed a cargo vessel to identify that it wasn't transmitting AIS, in violation of regs. This guy just become the AIS police? He even said, "you could have run us over". Wow, I was about a half mile away and would estimate visibility at about 2 million miles that day. Geesh.

First, your AIS is going to alert you to a potential conflict that may be well far enough away to avoid when you get there. 

Secondly, these guys in the commercial vessels are at work, while we are tootling to our next sunset cocktail. I don't really care what the stand on rules are going to be when we get that close. I say, alter course early (before the rules apply) and give the fella a break.

I heard one yo yo hail and identify himself as the "sailboat, under sail, a half mile off your starboard bow, what are your intentions?" The cargo vessel replied "we will maintain course and speed". The sailboat replies that their AIS suggests a conflict, they are under sail, and again asks the cargo vessel their intentions. The cargo skipper replies, "we will maintain course and speed". There was tons of sea room in their vicinity.

Good for them.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

I can only imagine how much the commercial operators hate the pleasure boat community using AIS indiscriminately. Honestly guys, they don't want to talk to you and the only thing they do want from you, is for you to keep well clear of them.
Having stood on the bridge of ships and sailed small craft extensively, I can say without qualification that small craft are nothing more than bothersome mosquitoes to them.
Even in a potential collision situation at sea in the dark, you would be much better served to just avoid the situation than presuming that the watch stander on that bridge is even awake and that you both have a common language.
AIS may be a wonderful tool, but collision avoidance is still the responsibility of the smaller vessel.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

capta said:


> but collision avoidance is still the responsibility of the smaller vessel.


Huh?

Not according to the International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea.


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## ccriders (Jul 8, 2006)

If recreational vessels continue to force the rules onto large commercial vessels, the next convention on COLREGS, which will not include the recreational crowd, will fix the problem. We might not like the solution.
There are times and places where strict adherence is required for safety reasons. But as pointed out by Minnewaska and Capta, get out of their way when you can. Don't make life unnecessarily combative.
John


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

capta said:


> ...
> AIS may be a wonderful tool, but collision avoidance is still the responsibility of the smaller vessel.


Collision avoidance is the responsibility of both parties and AIS is just one more tool that makes it easier to avoid a problem. The problem is not AIS, it is few jerks who have a new toy that makes it easier for them to show how important they are. I generally use AIS as a tool to allow we to keep out of the way (talking about open ocean here) but there have been a few times I have called ships to insure that safe passage is enhanced.

One thing I have noticed is the number of ships that make a minor course change to avoid me even when we are 5 to 10 miles apart. You will see them alter by 2 or 3 degrees until we pass and then they resume course.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

jackdale said:


> Huh?
> 
> Not according to the International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea.


Oh for crying out loud. So you've read the rules, we applaud you.
However, the last vessel that can avoid a collision must avoid the collision, so in what universe do you believe a large commercial vessel would be that vessel? It will always fall on the smaller, more maneuverable vessel to avoid a collision in the end. But you keep telling yourself that you are the stand on vessel, when that ship can not possibly do what you, as an amateur pleasure vessel operator thinks it can, and runs you down.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

I have to agree with Minne and Capta.

We're a LOT more maneuverable and have a LOT more to lose. How hard is it to tack or alter course a few degrees? 

Can you imagine a tanker trying to slalom between all the pleasure boats out on a nice weekend?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

capta said:


> I can only imagine how much the commercial operators hate the pleasure boat community using AIS .....


I was thinking the same thing.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

jackdale said:


> Huh?
> 
> Not according to the International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea.


I've never read it clarified when the stand on rules come into effect. Is it sufficient to say that your AIS will alert you to a potential conflict long before either vessel would be require to stand-on or adjust course in the colreg?


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

I can imagine it must be perplexing for a ship close off the coast passing some port on a Saturday afternoon... But one must realise not only do ships have to obey Colregs but also these days ships are very manoeuvrable. A button twiddle and they don't steamroller Mum, Day and the 6 kids having a day sail.

Sure there will be peanuts who abuse it, but they are, I'll bet, in the minority.

All ships have to do is run an extra mile off the coast, or if leaving/entering port stick to the channel and mention that in the VHF TXs.

Oh, one other thing, a joystick twiddling ship at 18 knots has much better chance of avoiding a sailboat going up wind, or deep downwind at 4 knots than the other way around.

Mark


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## socal c25 (Nov 1, 2013)

I sail in one of the busiest ports, the port of Los Angeles and you don't get in the way not at all! If you expect a 1200+ ft ship that weighs 20,000+ tons to move out of your way then you need to have your head examined. Here is a little tidbit about ships.
Some of the world's biggest container ships are about 1,300 feet long - that's nearly 400 meters or the distance around an Olympic running track - with a maximum width of 180 feet (55 meters). Their engines weigh 2,300 tons, their propellers 130 tons, and there are twenty-one stories between their bridge and their engine room. They can be operated by teams of just thirteen people and a sophisticated computer system and carry an astonishing 11,000 20-foot containers. If that number of containers were loaded onto a train it would need to be 44 miles or 71 kilometers long!


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## SailRedemption (Jun 29, 2013)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> I can imagine it must be perplexing for a ship close off the coast passing some port on a Saturday afternoon... But one must realise not only do ships have to obey Colregs but also these days ships are very manoeuvrable. A button twiddle and they don't steamroller Mum, Day and the 6 kids having a day sail.
> 
> Sure there will be peanuts who abuse it, but they are, I'll bet, in the minority.
> 
> ...


Have you been on a ship bridge to make these claims? You're right, it is easy for the ship to change heading, but it takes quite a long time for the ship to actually respond to that command. Ship design hasn't changed, electronics maybe but you get a 100k ton 700ft vessel moving it doesn't just turn like your 40ft boat. Even if the stern doesn't shift to make the bow appear to be turning, the ship is still sliding straight.

And all a recreational boat has to do is stay out of the channel or stay one mile closer to the coast..

Lastly, no you are incorrect, it is not easier to avoid a sailboat for a ship. A sailboat can alter course much faster than that ship. That is just silly to even try to argue.

I do in fact pilot these vessels, even the 6k ton 300ft supply boat with z-drives I'm on doesn't just respond on a dime, and it's MUCH more maneuverable than a single screw one rudder ship. I'm not just making this up or blowing smoke.

This argument comes up all the time, yea as a sailboat, you have rights over the big ship. But if you want to risk your life because you think it can just "get out of your way because he's a motor vessel," your wrong and my opinion not being prudent or wise. It's physics and hydrodynamics prove you move a heck of a lot easier than them.

Unless you are bound by some unique circumstance that keeps you from taking or gybing or turning up to slow down or douse sail momentarily then you/we should not impede these commercial vessels. They are working so we can enjoy goods across the world. Would you want someone to come get in your way or cause you to alter you course of job just because they have the right? Like osha coming in your workplace just because they have "rights" to..


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

It can take a hell of a lot longer for a sailboat to turn with spinnaker or genoa poled out, boom with a preventer, and windward runners set.

Fortunately the people who make the rules seem to understand that better than many here.

If you ship is uncontrollable the drop the hook.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

BoatyardBoy said:


> Have you been on a ship bridge to make these claims? You're right, it is easy for the ship to change heading, but it takes quite a long time for the ship to actually respond to that command. Ship design hasn't changed, electronics maybe but you get a 100k ton 700ft vessel moving it doesn't just turn like your 40ft boat. Even if the stern doesn't shift to make the bow appear to be turning, the ship is still sliding straight.
> 
> And all a recreational boat has to do is stay out of the channel or stay one mile closer to the coast..
> 
> ...


The only rule that is worth following around the world in my humble opinion is COLLISION avoidance...

anything else is not even remotely noteworthy when compared to a collision...

I wont get into this in personal detail or whatever Im sure we have all had similar oh **** moments but honestly stop the rules say this run to mommy attitude becase its written somewhere in some rule book so I have the right etc...

If you cant tack your boat quickly or move out of the way under sail...may I suggest maybe picking up golf or cards?

Unless you are restricted in mobility, showing the navigation signs for this and have no auxiliary power and no wind and your rudder is unresponsive and your cat is dying and grandma is freaking out and your are sinking too oh and a whale decided to jump right next to you and a volcano is exploding and impeding visibility and saturn decides to crash into planet earth:

MOVE THE F AWAY....:laugher:laugher:laugher:laugher:laugher:laugher:laugher:laugher:laugher

avoid a collision no MATTER WHAT

good points boatyardboy


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

capta said:


> Oh for crying out loud. So you've read the rules, we applaud you.
> However, the last vessel that can avoid a collision must avoid the collision, so in what universe do you believe a large commercial vessel would be that vessel? It will always fall on the smaller, more maneuverable vessel to avoid a collision in the end. But you keep telling yourself that you are the stand on vessel, when that ship can not possibly do what you, as an amateur pleasure vessel operator thinks it can, and runs you down.


And it is clear that you have not read the rules nor do you understand them.

The rules make the actions of vessels predictable. That is what everyone should want.


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## SailRedemption (Jun 29, 2013)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> It can take a hell of a lot longer for a sailboat to turn with spinnaker or genoa poled out, boom with a preventer, and windward runners set.
> 
> Fortunately the people who make the rules seem to understand that better than many here.
> 
> If you ship is uncontrollable the drop the hook.


If your sailboat is uncontrollable cut the lines. And I seriously doubt it takes longer than a large ship to respond to rudder command.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

Maneuverability is really not a deciding criteria. A port tack boat running wing on wing is less maneuverable than a starboard tack boat on a beam reach. Guess who is give way.








BTW - port tack wing on wing is give way to just about every other sailing vessel.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

BoatyardBoy said:


> If your sailboat is uncontrollable cut the lines. And I seriously doubt it takes longer than a large ship to respond to rudder command.


This situation assumes that no one have an adequate lookout.


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## SailRedemption (Jun 29, 2013)

jackdale said:


> And it is clear that you have not read the rules nor do you understand them.
> 
> The rules make the actions of vessels predictable. That is what everyone should want.


I agree, though it's predictable that a smaller much more maneuverable vessel should heed passage for a larger less maneuverable one.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

Collision avoidance should rely on all available means. AIS is the new gizmo. I prefer to use a hand bearing compass in conjunction with radar using an EBL and MARPA, if available.

I will admit that AIS was handy when I was rendezvousing with an 1100 foot container ship to medevac one of my crew 1000 miles north of Hawaii two years ago. I could pick out the ship while they were still over the horizon.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

BoatyardBoy said:


> I agree, though it's predictable that a smaller much more maneuverable vessel should heed passage for a larger less maneuverable one.


Are you talking about open ocean, narrow channels, A TSS or a harbour? The rules are different.


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## SailRedemption (Jun 29, 2013)

jackdale said:


> Maneuverability is really not a deciding criteria. A port tack boat running wing on wing is less maneuverable than a starboard tack boat on a beam reach. Guess who is give way.
> 
> BTW - port tack wing on wing is give way to just about every other sailing vessel.


While I agree that it isn't the deciding criteria, it is in our discussion here. If we're talking about in Port interfaces here maneuverability is definitely a criteria. At sea.. (see below) 


jackdale said:


> This situation assumes that no one have an adequate lookout.


At sea, I think there shouldn't even be a argument about this. At 10 miles, sight to horizon, it only take a course change of a couple degrees of either or both vessels to open a cpa to avoid collision. But that's not what we're talking about.


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## fryewe (Dec 4, 2004)

AIS is a collision avoidance aid. It gives vessels so equipped an evaluation method to determine if a maneuver by one or both is required to avoid interference or collision.

In the event a maneuver is needed it can be discussed via voice circuit or a skipper can simply take action so the other vessel can view it on AIS.

But any recreational vessel skipper who has all these modern methods yet still insists that a working 90K dwt vessel maneuver to avoid him just because the COLREGS asserts that he is in position to stand on is a poor seaman...in my view.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

BoatyardBoy said:


> While I agree that it isn't the deciding criteria, it is in our discussion here. If we're talking about in Port interfaces here maneuverability is definitely a criteria. At sea.. (see below)


Narrow channels and TSSs are covered in the rules. Harbour regulations (which most folks do not read) cover situations in harbours.

On a Meridian 368 a few weeks ago I got the heck out of the way of a container ship going under Lions Gate bridge in Vancouver - that's the rules.

In Victoria, BC the water aerodrome rules override Colregs.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

fryewe said:


> In the event a maneuver is needed it can be discussed via voice circuit or a skipper can simply take action so the other vessel can view it on AIS.


In the UK, the use of VHF in these situations frowned upon.



> Summary
> ● Although the use of VHF radio may be justified on occasion in collision avoidance, the
> provisions of the Collision Regulations should remain uppermost, as misunderstandings
> can arise even where the language of communication is not a problem.


http://www.lawandsea.net/1documents/mgn167.pdf

And I have used VHF to communicate intentions and have passed red -to-red.


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## fryewe (Dec 4, 2004)

jackdale said:


> ...misunderstandings
> can arise even where the language of communication is not a problem...
> 
> And I have used VHF to communicate intentions and have passed red -to-red.


Brings to mind a trip into Cockburn Sound a number of years ago...approaching a right turn to Freemantle north of Rottnest Island with a bulk carrier broad on my port bow at about 800 yards I hailed him to query whether he would be continuing to port at Freemantle and would be turning to starboard soon...with a view to avoid interfering with his turn I was going to offer to slow and allow him to proceed ahead of me as we were both doing about 16 knots and had been more or less formation steaming for about 3 hours with him slowly drawing ahead a few yards a minute.

Instead...in broken English...he began screaming into his mike..."Your rudder is port aye...your rudder is port aye...your rudder is port aye..." and placed his own rudder hard to port. I could not get through to him on the radio to clarify my intentions due to his continued wailing on the channel. He was doing his second or third donut when I gave up - having long ago made my turn to starboard and now at least a mile away from him.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

Minnewaska said:


> I've never read it clarified when the stand on rules come into effect. Is it sufficient to say that your AIS will alert you to a potential conflict long before either vessel would be require to stand-on or adjust course in the colreg?


They are always in effect. It just doesn't make much difference until you get close. How close "close" is depends on conditions, sizes, speeds, ...



BoatyardBoy said:


> Lastly, no you are incorrect, it is not easier to avoid a sailboat for a ship. A sailboat can alter course much faster than that ship.


And often does, unexpectedly.



BoatyardBoy said:


> This argument comes up all the time, yea as a sailboat, you have rights over the big ship. But if you want to risk your life because you think it can just "get out of your way because he's a motor vessel," your wrong and my opinion not being prudent or wise. It's physics and hydrodynamics prove you move a heck of a lot easier than them.


I agree. Why risk being _dead_ right?

Since others are sharing stories I will as well. A few years ago I was approaching the mouth of the Delaware Bay from the North heading for the Cape Henlopen Harbor of Refuge. A really big ocean going tug with a huge long tow was coming in from offshore. My Mark I eyeball said there was a pretty good chance I would pass between the tug and tow, the technical term for which is "stupid." *grin* Now we were several miles apart - there was lots of time. Taking action early means less action is required. Sure I was stand-on (sail over power, boat to starboard) but why make the guys life difficult or even uncertain? Anyway I started to tidy up before cracking off when the radio came to life. The tug was calling me to ask intentions so he could accommodate. Nice. No way for him to know if I was heading South along the coast, heading toward Lewes, or planning a turn up the Delaware. I told him he was working for a living and I was going to slow down and turn left a bit to pass behind him. We ended up shifting to another channel and having a nice chat for about half an hour (I think he was lonely).

The point of the story is that just because I was stand-on doesn't mean I couldn't--or shouldn't--be the one to change course. There is room for civility in collision avoidance.



MarkofSeaLife said:


> It can take a hell of a lot longer for a sailboat to turn with spinnaker or genoa poled out, boom with a preventer, and windward runners set.


I'm not sure that's true if you count time from starting activity to the vessel being on a new course. Certainly coming up is going to be easier and safer than heading down with the added benefit of generally slowing the boat. 10, 15, even 20 degrees isn't a problem (even if the sails luff a bit) and is plenty if you act early enough.



jackdale said:


> The rules make the actions of vessels predictable. That is what everyone should want.


Which is part of the problem recreational vessels present to commercial traffic. We are generally unpredictable. We make abrupt and unexpected changes in speed and direction. We often don't understand the rules. Sometimes we don't even know where the channels are. We don't listen to the radio. We don't listen to the right channels when we do. We don't pay attention. When we do we are easily distracted. We don't realize when we are in a TSS and what that means to commercial traffic.

I'd much rather share the water with the big guys than weekend warriors.

That isn't to say no recreational traffic acts professionally - you just can't count on it.


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## SailRedemption (Jun 29, 2013)

Well said, Auspicious.

Regarding that tug captain, he probably was lonely. Usually on those offshore tugs they only have 3 people on watch and the 6 total on board. He was probably up in the wheelhouse driving alone for a good while. (the engineer or AB were probably hiding haha, happens on my vessel :rollseyes but that's cool you got to chat. I haven't run across an unfriendly watchman on the radio yet. At worst it's just cordial.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SVAuspicious said:


> They are always in effect. It just doesn't make much difference until you get close. How close "close" is depends on conditions, sizes, speeds, ............


I would love to see something official that clarifies "always in effect, but doesn't make much difference"

As you state it, if I'm on starboard tack and you on port tack, three quarters of a mile away, I am required to maintain course and speed until you either maneuver to avoid collision or I feel I must do so to avoid one. Would you suggest I maintain course and speed in that scenario, even if my intent was to tack and head in another direction anyway?

It's not conceivable to me that these can be followed, always. There has to be a point where you determine the risk of collision actually exists and then these rules clearly apply to everyone, big and small.

The premise of my OP is to say that we should be giving the huge working vessels a pass and maneuver to avoid, long before there is any risk of collision or either vessel has a need to do the colreg math. For goodness sake, these new AIS gizmos are clearly giving these skippers the info to do so, or they wouldn't be calling from so far away.

These calls I'm hearing are off the coast, not in the the East Passage shipping lane. There is roughly 3,000 miles to the east to maneuver.


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## SailRedemption (Jun 29, 2013)

Minnewaska said:


> It's not conceivable to me that these can be followed, always. There has to be a point where you determine the risk of collision actually exists and then these rules clearly apply to everyone, big and small.
> 
> The premise of my OP is to say that we should be giving the huge working vessels a pass and maneuver to avoid, long before there is any risk of collision or either vessel has a need to do the colreg math. For goodness sake, these new AIS gizmos are clearly giving these skippers the info to do so, or they wouldn't be calling from so far away.
> 
> These calls I'm hearing are off the coast, not in the the East Passage shipping lane. There is roughly 3,000 miles to the east to maneuver.


This.

I concur. It's ridiculous to not just alter course way in advance for these commercial vessels. There shouldn't be a "well I have rights, they need to bow to me" when it's unnecessary and just not courteous. Like you putting around in your dinghy in an anchorage and you come up to a situation with a yacht under power, you have rights. Are you going to let that captain know you have rights or are you going to change course a bit just to make it easier for everyone?

It's common mariner courtesy and not being a jerk because you can.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

Minnewaska said:


> As you state it, if I'm on starboard tack and you on port tack, three quarters of a mile away, I am required to maintain course and speed until you either maneuver to avoid collision or I feel I must do so to avoid one.


Context is everything. Where are we? How much other traffic is relevant? Off Newport on a weekend with lots of other recreational traffic will be a different scenario than halfway between Point Judith and Block Island on a Tuesday morning.

I sure hope I saw you a long time before we were only 3/4 mile apart.

With lots of traffic, especially small boats, the response distance gets smaller because there are just so very many relationships developing. You may be stand-on with 15 boats and give-way with 15 more. You make an adjustment with respect to one boat and that could change the other 29 relationships.

I'm saying that you should be maintaining situational awareness and use the rules and your good judgment to make good choices. The rules always apply. As noted small boats are very maneuverable. We can get pretty close - a lot closer than 3/4 mile - and still maneuver calmly. On the other hand 3/4 mile is close for a big ship even though it is still a good stand-off for us.

In your scenario, ignoring any other relationships that may be relevant, you are stand-on and I am give-way. Fine. Stand-on. Heck we're 80 boat lengths apart. Maintain course and speed. I may do that also based on my assessment of CPA. I may adjust course and/or speed. Regardless when we are close enough for me to be able to tell when you are looking at me I'm going to wave at you. Now you know I know you're there. The very best thing you can do as stand-on is to maintain course and speed thereby being predictable. If you start jinking around every few minutes and become de facto unpredictable I'm going to make some assumptions and act accordingly - possibly to the point of heaving to until you go away. If you properly stand-on (maintaining situational awareness) we may pass close enough for me to hand you some Grey Poupon. *grin*

I've been racing a long long time (not that you would know that on the water) and have a pretty good eye for CPA. Thus the wave when we get close enough, followed by a friendly hail as we get closer ("Good day captain! Hold your course and I'll slide behind you.").



Minnewaska said:


> Would you suggest I maintain course and speed in that scenario, even if my intent was to tack and head in another direction anyway?


The only way to make your intent clear is to communicate. You have choices. You can call me on the radio and tell me you plan to tack. You can tack early so our situation settles and we both know what our respective roles are. You can hold course and speed until we're clear and then tack. Just don't expect me to read your mind. As a racer I can deal with people tacking on top of me but you know as well as I that you shouldn't expect recreational boaters, sail or power, to be able to deal with close quarters maneuvering. We are both single handing in your scenario, right?



Minnewaska said:


> It's not conceivable to me that these can be followed, always. There has to be a point where you determine the risk of collision actually exists and then these rules clearly apply to everyone, big and small.


Those situations are in the rules also. Everyone is responsible for avoiding a collision.



Minnewaska said:


> The premise of my OP is to say that we should be giving the huge working vessels a pass and maneuver to avoid, long before there is any risk of collision or either vessel has a need to do the colreg math.


And I am agreeing with you. Don't jink around. Don't delay. Make your adjustment as early as possible and then maintain course and speed. Be predictable.


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

IMHO, none of this is black and white. 

On the one hand, as an example, lots of sailors are unfamiliar with narrow channel rules or rules for vessels engaged in commercial fishing, and think they are under sail and can do whatever they want.

On the other hand, in the open ocean, many large commercial boats are running with no one one the bridge, not legally, but they are doing it. The crew may not speak english. That fishing boat returning from a week out may have a tired captain falling asleep at the wheel. 

The best policy is to know the rules, but also to know how to stay out of trouble. As a matter of courtesy, i also agree that giving the commercial guy a break when you're out there going no where in particular is always appreciated.

I understand the argument that if you strictly follow COLREGs you'll be predictable to the other vessel, and I have taught this in a CG's master's class. I've also taught that after you pass the test, don't assume anyone else paid attention in class.

There are a lot of threads like this. Sometimes it gets so ridiculous in my neighborhood that you're tempted to turn off the VHF. That's what Mini is talking about. Pretty soon we'll be hearing sunfish with AIS negotiating passing agreements with super tankers whilst reserving a mooring on high power, so everyone from RI to Maine knows where they are staying, oh, and they need pump out right away, this is a PAN PAN at least, maybe even a MAYDAY if the tanks are overflowing

Disclaimer: The last paragraph of this post is sarcasm....just incase you're thinking you can get your tanks pumped out quickly by making these calls, please don't.


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## nolatom (Jun 29, 2005)

I think the theme here is, "use VHF and AIS as a courtesy and not as an irritant". If I'm on a beat in a sound I will let a barge tow (or any large nonmaneuverable vessel) know what I'm doing so my "zig-zags" don't cause heartburn.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Over long stretches of water, a large vessel is V E R Y able to alter course and abide by the rules. The issue is not with small, slow moving sailboats but with fast, maneuverable large ships who are too damned lazy or unwilling to abide by the safety rules. I will always alter course to avoid larger ships when at all possible but there are frequent circumstances where the large ship MUST alter course in open water simply because a small, slow vessel cannot get out of the way. To suggest that large ships do not have to abide by the rules is total nonsense. I have nearly been run down by a large tanker who was apparently oblivious and unresponsive to radio contact in open water.


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## bblument (Oct 22, 2012)

SVAuspicious said:


> There is room for civility in collision avoidance.


Perfect. It'd be nice if that applied to ALL aspects of life when there's an oncoming "collision," i.e., differing ideas or opinions. Civility serves everyone well; curious why some people abandon it almost immediately. I'm NOT referencing anything in this thread... promise.

While I'm writing, I've got another one of my patented stupid newb questions. In an earlier post, someone mentioned being "wing-on-wing on a port tack." Can someone clear that up for me? I thought wing-on-wing, i.e., main on one side of the boat and headsail out the other side (usually poled out), was used solely for DDW. If you were on a tack, be it port or starboard, why would you want your sails wing-on-wing, or how would it even be possible or safe? I'm sure there's an obvious answer, but I can't see it. In my mind's eye, it seems like the minute you'd turn off DDW, the sails would start developing opposing forces.

I'm sure I'm wrong... but I'd like to understand why.

Thanks!

Barry


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## FSMike (Jan 15, 2010)

bblument said:


> ----While I'm writing, I've got another one of my patented stupid newb questions. In an earlier post, someone mentioned being "wing-on-wing on a port tack." Can someone clear that up for me? I thought wing-on-wing, i.e., main on one side of the boat and headsail out the other side (usually poled out), was used solely for DDW.
> -----Barry


If you are under sail you are going to be on either port tack or starboard tack regardless of whether you are on a run or close hauled or any other point of sail.
Which tack you are on is determined by the position of the main sail. If the boom is on the port side of the boat (wind coming from starboard) you are on starboard tack. If the boom is on the starboard side you are on port tack.


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## bblument (Oct 22, 2012)

FSMike said:


> If you are under sail you are going to be on either port tack or starboard tack regardless of whether you are on a run or close hauled or any other point of sail.
> Which tack you are on is determined by the position of the main sail. If the boom is on the port side of the boat (wind coming from starboard) you are on starboard tack. If the boom is on the starboard side you are on port tack.


Thanks for clearing that up for me, Mike. I had taken the logical cause and effect chain one step too far; since the wind generally determines which side the boom is on, I thought that the wind itself was the factor determining which tack you were on. Obviously, using the boom instead makes more sense; you can SEE w/ certainty, rather than rely on interpolating the winds that another boat is experiencing. Got it. Thanks.

Barry


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

bblument said:


> Thanks for clearing that up for me, Mike. I had taken the logical cause and effect chain one step too far; since the wind generally determines which side the boom is on, I thought that the wind itself was the factor determining which tack you were on. Obviously, using the boom instead makes more sense; you can SEE w/ certainty, rather than rely on interpolating the winds that another boat is experiencing. Got it. Thanks.
> 
> Barry


Racers will, on occasional, sail by the lee with the boom on the port side (starboard tack) in order to maintain stand-on "rights."

This also why Rule 12(a) iii exists.


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

smurphny said:


> Over long stretches of water, a large vessel is V E R Y able to alter course and abide by the rules. The issue is not with small, slow moving sailboats but with fast, maneuverable large ships who are too damned lazy or unwilling to abide by the safety rules. I will always alter course to avoid larger ships when at all possible but there are frequent circumstances where the large ship MUST alter course in open water simply because a small, slow vessel cannot get out of the way. To suggest that large ships do not have to abide by the rules is total nonsense. I have nearly been run down by a large tanker who was apparently oblivious and unresponsive to radio contact in open water.


The problem with communicating with large ships in the open ocean is that many of the crews simply DONT SPEAK ENGLISH. So if you attempt to hail such a boat via VHF, etc. the high probability will be that they have no idea what you are saying and therefore will not answer. The american and other english-speaking merchant marine is virtually non-existent in todays world; most ships are crewed by non-english speakers. 
Plus, your teeny radar reflector in the rigging may simply be too damn small of a radar return to set off their auto-alarms with the gain settings expecting SHIPS, instead of a paltry few sq. inches of reflector surface area.

The best bet is stay off the waypoint rhumb lines used by the big 'commercial' traffic. Since the advent of GPS, it seems that no one travels 'anything' but these direct route waypoint rhumb lines. ;-)


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

RichH said:


> The problem with communicating with large ships in the open ocean is that many of the crews simply DONT SPEAK ENGLISH. So if you attempt to hail such a boat via VHF, etc. the high probability will be that they have no idea what you are saying and therefore will not answer. The american and other english-speaking merchant marine is virtually non-existent in todays world; most ships are crewed by non-english speakers.
> Plus, your teeny radar reflector in the rigging may simply be too damn small of a radar return to set off their auto-alarms with the gain settings expecting SHIPS, instead of a paltry few sq. inches of reflector surface area.
> 
> The best bet is stay off the waypoint rhumb lines used by the big 'commercial' traffic. Since the advent of GPS, it seems that no one travels 'anything' but these direct route waypoint rhumb lines. ;-)


There is also probably a very high degree of variation in competence at the helm of foreign vessels. We've seen this with some of the recent cruise ship episodes. In the US, there is a high bar to jump to become a captain of a large vessel. This is questionable in other countries.

Sailboats are hard to pick up on radar. It seems that the rigging and small, low-to-the- water, reflecting surfaces make for less signal. I have noticed this on my little Furuno unit. It will pick up power boats at a greater distance and with more clarity than sailboats.

It is absolutely a good practice to stay well out of shipping lanes. Most boaters will follow the GPS routes supplied in electronic chart packages rather than get a little creative and offset enough to stay well clear. There are plenty of places where sailing miles outside of ship channels is no problem whatsoever. Going up and down Delaware Bay comes to mind. There is really no reason to be anywhere near the shipping channel but it seems 90% of the boats follow the buoys.

I totally agree that long distance situational awareness is the key to avoiding crossing problems. Almost all of these situations can be extinguished immediately by early, decisive and obvious course changes whether the stand-on vessel or burdened vessel.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SVAuspicious said:


> Context is everything. Where are we?


We are off the coast with plenty of sea room, as I said above.



> I'm saying that you should be maintaining situational awareness


I agree, however, I read you stating that the rules always apply, which would bind you to stand on no matter how far away the opposing traffic was identified. There has to be another filter.



> and use the rules and your good judgment to make good choices.


Do the ColRegs reference good judgement for when you stand on? That's my point. Good judgement would be to give the tanker some room, even if you're stand-on, long before it's an issue. People seem to be using AIS to exercise their rights.



> In your scenario, ignoring any other relationships that may be relevant, you are stand-on and I am give-way. Fine. Stand-on.


No other relationships, as you note, and I was always planning to tack away, even if you weren't there. I see you coming 3/4 mile away and now I need to stand-on? Can't believe anyone would do that. How about a mile, two miles? How about, if my AIS simply identifies you coming over the horizon and I can't see you at all?

While I've never seen clarification and have provoked someone to produce it many times, it only seems reasonable that stand-on rules only apply when there is an actual risk of collision. Not a certainty, a risk. If you and I are 3/4 mile apart, there just isn't a risk in an open water, unrestricted, scenario I can conjure.



> And I am agreeing with you. Don't jink around. Don't delay. Make your adjustment as early as possible and then maintain course and speed. Be predictable.


For sure. As I said in the OP, move long before its an issue. We do agree. Seems many with their new toys feel more entitled than you and I.


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

Years ago I offered a suggestion to one of the marine flare (gun) manufacturers that I perceived would be a solution to constant possibility of being run-over by the large commercials when at sea.

I suggested that a flare gun 'load' be investigated that contained the appropriate sized wires or aluminum strips, etc. similar to the 'chaff' used in WW-2 be considered.

Imagine the consternation on the bridge deck of a large ship when suddenly something as large as 10 aircraft carriers suddenly appeared on the ship bridge radar screen ... that would most certainly set off a few 'alarms' on that bridge, maybe enough to wake up a bored and dozing 'bridge watch'. Apparently nothing happened with that suggestion. 

I have used a white parachute flare for the same intent when a ship changed course to directly 'over me' at night, didnt respond on the VHF and obviously didnt see me - certainly got their attention, and I dont even speak or understand Ukranian.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

Three observations:
I learned to sail on the Delaware River in a 22 footer. Lot's of commercial traffic that's moving faster than you are. Lesson #1 was stay well clear of commercial traffic because situations can develop faster than you think. Make course changes in a way that your intentions are clear.

Watching the power boaters on the Delaware and now on Barnegat Bay I'm convinced that better than half the recreational boaters out there have never even heard of the rules of the road and would be mystified by the term colregs. Lesson #2 was always be aware of what's around you and make minor course changes well in advance to give yourself room and options.

Am I adding a little time getting from A to B? probably.

Does that matter to me? Nope.

Finally I don't assume somebody is at the helm. When a disabled Duck Tours Boat was run down on the Delaware no one was at the helm of the commercial vessel. Twice now I've seen power boats go by me on autopilot with no one at the helm (both were large power cruisers).

If you're in such a hurry that you can't tolerate a minor course correction to prevent a closing situation from developing then picking a vessel with a top speed of 6 or 7 knots was your first bad decision. 

I'm out there to enjoy myself, why would I intentionally put myself in danger?


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

JimMcGee said:


> Three observations:
> I learned to sail on the Delaware River in a 22 footer. Lot's of commercial traffic that's moving faster than you are. Lesson #1 was stay well clear of commercial traffic because situations can develop faster than you think. Make course changes in a way that your intentions are clear.
> 
> Watching the power boaters on the Delaware and now on Barnegat Bay I'm convinced that better than half the recreational boaters out there have never even heard of the rules of the road and *would be mystified by the term colregs.* Lesson #2 was always be aware of what's around you and make minor course changes well in advance to give yourself room and options.
> ...


Most are mystified by the terms PORT and STARBOARD and are too busy adjusting the boombox to pay attention to where they are going I have decided that the only safe assumption is that pleasure craft have absolutely no clue as to the rules of the road. It's the same principle as when on a bike, you have to assume that person making the left turn WILL turn right in front of you.

Rich, that is a great idea. I'll bet a 12 ga. shell could be DIY stuffed with some kind of reflective material, maybe some small pieces of aluminum flashing.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

BoatyardBoy said:


> It's common mariner courtesy and not being a jerk because you can.


Exactly. I'd be happy to find myself in a crossing situation with you.



jackdale said:


> Racers will, on occasional, sail by the lee with the boom on the port side (starboard tack) in order to maintain stand-on "rights."
> 
> This also why Rule 12(a) iii exists.


I know you know this, but for the record the Racing Rules don't apply to anyone who isn't racing. The COLREGS or Inland Rules as appropriate (depending on where you are with respect to the demarcation line) apply to everyone, including racers.

Still, as you point out, the racing rules are interesting to consider since so many of these discussions have already taken place among some really smart, thoughtful people.



RichH said:


> The problem with communicating with large ships in the open ocean is that many of the crews simply DONT SPEAK ENGLISH. So if you attempt to hail such a boat via VHF, etc. the high probability will be that they have no idea what you are saying and therefore will not answer.


There is merit in this concern. However if you are close enough to a port waters there is a good chance there will be a pilot aboard and on the bridge who will speak English. If not there is a good chance that someone aboard speaks English, often the captain. I once called Shipcom (neé AT&T High Seas Radio) with the MMSI number of a ship I really wanted to talk to; Shipcom called them on their IMO number (I can't afford to carry the directory but Shipcom has one) and the captain called back on VHF. That all took a while. *grin*

My point is in support of yours. A common language can be a problem. It's a problem on some ships where the officers speak one (or two or three) languages, the watch crew speaks another, and the day ladies speak yet another.



Minnewaska said:


> We are off the coast with plenty of sea room, as I said above.


I think I understand you question and confusion better. Thanks.

Let me try to help.

You are stand-on and I am give-way. For purposes of discussion you plan to tack onto my course, about at our CPA. It is far from clear that you can take my bow much less tack on top of me (ignoring how rude that would be). Three or four miles away with the benefit of your greater knowledge (you know your plans, I don't) you fall off 10 degrees. At that point, since you have changed course you give up stand-on status during and immediately after your course change. We're miles apart - no one cares. When things settle down (there is no time in the rules it's a judgement call - the courts can decide but by then we've all lost) you are again stand-on and I am give-way. I pass in front of you and you tack on my stern.

It is far from clear that you can take my bow much less tack on top of me (ignoring how rude that would be). Three or four miles away with the benefit of your greater knowledge (you know your plans, I don't) you fall off 10 degrees. At that point, since you have changed course you give up stand-on status during and immediately after your course change. We're miles apart - no one cares. When things settle down (there is no time in the rules it's a judgement call - the courts can decide but by then we've all lost) you are again stand-on and I am give-way. I pass in front of you and you tack on my stern.

Alternatively you are stand-on and I am give-way. For purposes of discussion you plan to tack about a 1/4 mile before our CPA. You're watching me and I'm watching you. For two recreational boats, 1/4 mile is pretty far (20 boat lengths). You get to the point you planned to tack (maybe even a little early) and tack. Great. You are not stand-on during your tack. Now we are both on port tack and you are windward boat. I'm stand-on and you are give-way. For whatever reason (I'm making this up of course) you aren't pointing as high as I am and CPA is disturbingly close to zero. *grin* I'm stand-on but that doesn't prevent me from taking action (ease sails to slow down, point higher, whatever) recognizing that during the time I am changing things I am not stand-on.

Ultimately we are both responsible for avoiding collision. Stand-on and give-way just define predictable roles.

The rules always apply. They don't say you must stand on no matter how far away the opposing traffic was identified. They say if you change course and speed you are not stand-on until your course and speed are stable for a reasonable time. "Reasonable" is a judgment on the water. If someone has poor judgment it becomes a matter for insurance companies and courts.



Minnewaska said:


> People seem to be using AIS to exercise their rights.


Unfortunate. AIS is a tool for understanding and communication.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

JimMcGee said:


> Watching the power boaters on the Delaware and now on Barnegat Bay I'm convinced that better than half the recreational boaters out there have never even heard of the rules of the road and would be mystified by the term colregs.


To pick a pretty important nit, both those places fall under the Inland Rules, not the COLREGS. They are almost the same but not entirely. Everyone should know the difference. As you so aptly point out, many people on the water don't even know they exist much less what they require.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

man...
good points as always auspicious...

just be curteous and avoid collisions I really dont understand why you want to delve into this more...

are you seriously telling me cruisers out there today are looking at their ais screens and radar and one hand on vhf ready to slam on a big ship or approaching vessel and ready to say:

what are your intentions?

good grief!

whats the point? you can do this on your computer back home in your basement...

enjoy the sea...the water and fellow sailors and mariners...

peace


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

I have worried for a while that AIS would cause problems when it became commonplace. 

Pity the people with their new toys don't know how to make an mmsi call. That would spare all the CH16 listeners.

I like to keep a radio watch at all times and feel everyone should but in the high season so much of the chatter is crap. I've taken to using my handheld in a pfd pocket for my radio watch because the low antenna height filters a lot out. I can always hear the USCG and I can hear boats within a few miles. At my max speed of 7 knots radio transmissions that are several miles away are not relevant to me.

Medsailor


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

AIS sure is a great earlier warning device. Not every vessel is emmitting a signal and no guarantee they are watching anyway. I assume that most are bigger , faster and much less aware than I as it's not who's right, it's who's left.


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## Hush34 (Dec 12, 2013)

Rules of the Road

Rule 1: The larger vessel (cargo ship) will crush you smaller vessel as you quote nav regs. On the way to the bottom perhaps you can get a lawyer and sue. 

Rule 2: The larger vessels (usually cargo ships) will come to your rescue when you are in the middle of no where and are in distress. 

Rule 3: Don't piss off the guys who drive big vessels they are earning a living and are carrying our boat parts and other important things like food. 

Rule 4: Don't be in a hurry, pass astern of large boats...guaranteed you won't get run over....unless they are towing a barge


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## jrd22 (Nov 14, 2000)

"Make your adjustment as early as possible and then maintain course and speed. Be predictable." Yep.
A sailboat was run over here not long ago by a Washington State Ferry. The sailboat wasn't asserting his stand on status (he wasn't watching where he was going and was unaware of the ferry) although according to the rules he could have communicated with the ferry and asked them to alter course. The problem was that a trainee was at the helm and when the captain told her to turn to port she turned to starboard and ran completely over the sailboat (the skipper survived, boat didn't). The moral of the story is that you are responsible for your own self preservation out there, let the big boats know what you are going to do so they don't have to worry about you and give them as much room as possible.


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## svzephyr44 (Jun 26, 2000)

In general I hate threads like this so I don't post on them. I don't appoint myself the "cop" for the behavior of others. No matter what is said here nothing is going to change - the uneducated are going to remain uneducated and oblivious. For some reason today I am going to break my own rule.

My experience is that large ships on the open seas frequently like to know one's intentions. When crossing from the Azores to Portugal I had to cross the very busy shipping lanes off Lisbon at a 90 degree angle. I picked the closest southbound ship on my AIS and called him on VHF. I said "Hi, I am the sailboat off your starboard bow. I am crossing the shipping lanes on course 090 and wanted to make sure you knew I was here. Is there anything I can do to make this easier?" The ship responded "we have you. Please maintain your course and speed and notify us if you need to change it." Looking off my port side I saw a string of green sidelights (sort of like watching the Friday night traffic coming into LGA!) Blip! The first sidelight turned red. Then the second. Then the third. I watched as the entire string of vessels passed 1 NM behind my stern (that seems to be the common courtesy distance at sea.) Once clear I thanked them all. After crossing the safely zone I did the same with the northbound traffic with the same result.

As Thucydides has been misattributed to say: "A collision at sea can ruin your entire day." True during the Peleponnesian Wars, true today. And today the paperwork is much more extensive not to mention the cost of maritime court. Those guys don't want to hit you, you don't want to be hit by them. That said there are shipping companies I don't trust. In particular Carnival Cruise Line Captains seem to be like the ship in _Spaceballs._* "We brake for nobody."* The MSC guys are a mixed bag - I have been run down by them a couple of times.

In a crowded harbor or bay my rule is stay out of the way of everybody. I have been run down more by powerboats and sailboats then I have ever experienced by commercial ships. In the ocean if the CPA is less than one mile I will call them on the radio. More than that and I leave them alone - but always stand in the cockpit with my Mark I eyeball to see what is going on - even if I have other crew on watch. I also use my tricolor at sea - its 63 feet in the air and is much easier to see then the deck lights. If I am concerned about a collision and can't raise the ship on the radio I just alter course to open the CPA.

I like Hush34's point of view. It mirrors mine.

One last point. I disagree with the notion that "commercial" ships hold recreational boaters in disdain. Perhaps true when close to shore. But I have never had the slightest inkling that I was being held in disdain when talking to commercial vessels 1000 NM offshore. Sometimes I detected a "you must be crazy to single hand out here in a little sailboat." But (with the noted exception of Carnival Cruise Line ships) everyone I have talked to has been friendly and supportive.

Done!

Fair winds and following seas


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## nolatom (Jun 29, 2005)

RichH said:


> The problem with communicating with large ships in the open ocean is that many of the crews simply DONT SPEAK ENGLISH. So if you attempt to hail such a boat via VHF, etc. the high probability will be that they have no idea what you are saying and therefore will not answer. The american and other english-speaking merchant marine is virtually non-existent in todays world; most ships are crewed by non-english speakers.
> Plus, your teeny radar reflector in the rigging may simply be too damn small of a radar return to set off their auto-alarms with the gain settings expecting SHIPS, instead of a paltry few sq. inches of reflector surface area.
> 
> The best bet is stay off the waypoint rhumb lines used by the big 'commercial' traffic. Since the advent of GPS, it seems that no one travels 'anything' but these direct route waypoint rhumb lines. ;-)


Actually just about all captains and most all mates on watch on large international ships (especially tankers) do speak english, and pretty well too, especially "navigation english", but it may be in awkward (to us at least) phraseology, and heavily accented. So keep it simple and give enough time to understand each other. AIS is a big help in being able to hail a ship by name.

Or else, as has been ably stated before, stay far enough away that you don't need to understand, much less talk to, each other.

And in pilot waters (and it's good if you know where they are, around the larger ports and river entrances) there will be a local pilot conning the ship, who speaks wonderful English. He (she) may refer to self by a pilot number rather than the ship's name so pay attention and monitor your radio, knowing of course what the local bridge-to-bridge channel is.

But I think you all know this already. Everyone's concern is with the folks who don't.


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## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

jackdale said:


> Huh?
> 
> Not according to the International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea.


My rules of survival say biggest boat wins. ais is great to identify potential issues before they become problems big ships are not easily maneuvers your small boat is. I don't need to talk to them to know I want to avoid scratching their paint with my sinking boat


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## SailRedemption (Jun 29, 2013)

smurphny said:


> Over long stretches of water, a large vessel is V E R Y able to alter course and abide by the rules. The issue is not with small, slow moving sailboats but with fast, maneuverable large ships who are too damned lazy or unwilling to abide by the safety rules.


You shouldn't make generalized and unsupported comments like "too lazy or unwilling to abide by the safety rules". Would be like me saying sailors are "too arrogant and unwilling to follow prudence and courtesy" when it's clear it's the easier choice in open water.



smurphny said:


> I will always alter course to avoid larger ships when at all possible but there are frequent circumstances where the large ship MUST alter course in open water simply because a small, slow vessel cannot get out of the way. To suggest that large ships do not have to abide by the rules is total nonsense.


If we are talking open water here, please tell me what circumstances where they MUST alter course if one or both of you can't do small alterations early to avoid a close situation. And no one has yet to suggest that they don't have to abide by rules.



smurphny said:


> I have nearly been run down by a large tanker who was apparently oblivious and unresponsive to radio contact in open water.





smurphny said:


> I totally agree that long distance situational awareness is the key to avoiding crossing problems. Almost all of these situations can be extinguished immediately by early, decisive and obvious course changes whether the stand-on vessel or burdened vessel.


You contradict yourself here, if you agree that early long distance awareness is key to avoiding problems whether stand on or give way then what were you doing in "open water"? If they were unresponsive or oblivious, why didn't you make a course change just to be safe you wouldn't be put in a situation early on?


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## SailRedemption (Jun 29, 2013)

In regards to language, every licensed officer of navigational watch is required to speak the language of the sea, which is English. Now I know it's not always the best but they do know English, more accurately navigation English. I hear the foreign officers on the radio all the time working near the Mississippi River entrance calling for pilots or having to make arrangements with them. 

Just thought I'd share the requirement..


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## SailRedemption (Jun 29, 2013)

No one is saying the Rules don't matter and shouldn't be followed or abided by. The original post was stating that we have people that are using their new found tech to exercise their power of the Rules. It's a friendly world out here and no one likes an *******. If you can change course(the earlier it is, the smaller the change needs to be) for commercial traffic then, I feel it's easier for the sailboat to do. If you are in open water and you do it early, you can change course within 5-10 degrees even with preventers, poles out, etc. And if you are in close quarters in Port, you shouldn't be impeding traffic in channels, TSS, or intersections. Also, when in close proximity you should be ready to maneuver and tack with ease or you aren't being prudent. 

You can do as you will but if/when a collision happens it's not just the give way vessels fault. Go look at every admiralty case, fault is placed on all parties involved. The court will find fault in you just as much as them.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

BoatyardBoy said:


> You shouldn't make generalized and unsupported comments like "too lazy or unwilling to abide by the safety rules". Would be like me saying sailors are "too arrogant and unwilling to follow prudence and courtesy" when it's clear it's the easier choice in open water.
> 
> If we are talking open water here, please tell me what circumstances where they MUST alter course if one or both of you can't do small alterations early to avoid a close situation. And no one has yet to suggest that they don't have to abide by rules.
> 
> You contradict yourself here, if you agree that early long distance awareness is key to avoiding problems whether stand on or give way then what were you doing in "open water"? If they were unresponsive or oblivious, why didn't you make a course change just to be safe you wouldn't be put in a situation early on?


There has been the underlying premise in many posts on this subject that small boats just have to give way to larger boats. This makes no sense and is a tacit approval of the idea that big boats do not need to follow the rules of the road just because they are bigger. Perhaps some enforcement of the rules would remedy this issue.

As to your last point, there is no contradiction whatsoever. When a large ship overtakes you in completely open water, seen miles away, not responding to any communication, not indicating its intention by legal sound signals, changing course, and proceeding at three times your speed, overtaking you rapidly, I challenge any sailboat to avoid being run down. You simply cannot tell where they are heading to maneuver out of the way. THEY NEED TO AVOID YOU!! The only thing you can do is try to figure out which side he MAY pass you on and turn at the last minute to avoid being hit. I had this exact thing happen a couple of years back. The ship was a foreign tanker and could have just as well hit me as not as he passed within 50 meters. I was simply lucky.

There has been plenty of evidence of hideous seamanship by commercial captains around the globe. Of course I did not intend to generalize but I've seen way too many cowboy acts from the local high speed ferry operators to tankers. Somebody needs to rein these types in.


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## delite (Nov 2, 2009)

When it comes to collision avoidance my father used to say there is right and then there is dead right. It doesnt matter if you have the right of way if you end up dead. Take action to avoid a collision long before it becomes a possibility. If i'm that close to a freighter that a collision is possible I know I am going to have to take action to avoid the collision as at that range he isnt going anywhere. Colregs dont trump the laws of physics!

The other night after the celebration of lights there must have been 5000 boats (300,000 people on shore) going every which way. Even with a spotter on the bow it was a little scary making my way into False Creek and I'd bet less than half of them had any clue about the colregs.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

smurphny said:


> There has been the underlying premise in many posts on this subject that small boats just have to give way to larger boats. This makes no sense and is a tacit approval of the idea that big boats do not need to follow the rules of the road just because they are bigger. Perhaps some enforcement of the rules would remedy this issue.
> 
> As to your last point, there is no contradiction whatsoever. When a large ship overtakes you in completely open water, seen miles away, not responding to any communication, not indicating its intention by legal sound signals, changing course, and proceeding at three times your speed, overtaking you rapidly, I challenge any sailboat to avoid being run down. You simply cannot tell where they are heading to maneuver out of the way. THEY NEED TO AVOID YOU!! The only thing you can do is try to figure out which side he MAY pass you on and turn at the last minute to avoid being hit. I had this exact thing happen a couple of years back. The ship was a foreign tanker and could have just as well hit me as not as he passed within 50 meters. I was simply lucky.
> 
> There has been plenty of evidence of hideous seamanship by commercial captains around the globe. Of course I did not intend to generalize but I've seen way too many cowboy acts from the local high speed ferry operators to tankers. Somebody needs to rein these types in.


you, me and many other may have had these same situations...its part of cruising...

there is one thing that I can agree with on and that is visibility the watchmen should have on tankers and big ships...our problem on most sailboat less than 100 feet is that we simply are at sea level and often cant make the same long distance early manuevers to avoid collision as easily as someone 21 stories up high

(moitessier for example had a "watchtower" on his main mast to scout the horizons and would climb night or day while sailing around the world

how many of us do that these days? of course not...we expect some gizmo to do it for us.)

thats the reason there are different rules regarding nav lights depending on length and design of boat.

rules aside..I still think it goes against COMMON SENSE to expect someone to give way or avoid you...and not you in return all the time. how fun is it to always be on starboard tack? jajaja

thats where courtesy and in my opinion simple prudent seamanship plays a more important role than whatever rule is written.

simply put, like someone else mentioned fault is usually shared in collision cases and not solely the fault of one side.

so think about that too when expecting everyone but you to ceade and or give away or avoid you...

just sayin

hideous seamanship and bad calls:

cocobusan in san fran
costa concordia
titanic

we all know them yet humans are still humans so act above and beyond and cover your bases


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## SailRedemption (Jun 29, 2013)

I



smurphny said:


> There has been the underlying premise in many posts on this subject that small boats just have to give way to larger boats. This makes no sense and is a tacit approval of the idea that big boats do not need to follow the rules of the road just because they are bigger. Perhaps some enforcement of the rules would remedy this issue.
> 
> As to your last point, there is no contradiction whatsoever. When a large ship overtakes you in completely open water, seen miles away, not responding to any communication, not indicating its intention by legal sound signals, changing course, and proceeding at three times your speed, overtaking you rapidly, I challenge any sailboat to avoid being run down. You simply cannot tell where they are heading to maneuver out of the way. THEY NEED TO AVOID YOU!! The only thing you can do is try to figure out which side he MAY pass you on and turn at the last minute to avoid being hit. I had this exact thing happen a couple of years back. The ship was a foreign tanker and could have just as well hit me as not as he passed within 50 meters. I was simply lucky.
> 
> There has been plenty of evidence of hideous seamanship by commercial captains around the globe. Of course I did not intend to generalize but I've seen way too many cowboy acts from the local high speed ferry operators to tankers. Somebody needs to rein these types in.


Not at all, my posts has been how it's easier for a smaller pleasure boat with no real schedule to alter course and give commercial vessel, large or small, some room so they can continue working. It's just courtesy. But don't get me wrong, I fully agree that there are bone heads out there, heck I went through the Academy with some that had no clue but they were smart so they passed the license tests.

I wasn't sure about your situation, which is why I asked. I run into this situation almost every time I'm underway with the commercial Shrimping boats. They don't respond to radio, are worse than the typical weekend warrior sailors in regards to no clue to rules, and they change direction without notice even after you changed your course to avoid them. These guys drag nets in the channel, right inside the jetties coming in from sea... the worst. I have to either reduce speed by half sometimes or come almost 90* either which way to avoid them. If you find yourself in a similar situation again, I would turn hard over and just continue perpendicular to his course till the ship is past. This way you aren't close enough to have to turn at the last minute or worry about which side he will pass you on. But hindsight right...

Oh Yea definitely a lot of terrible captains out there.. In any industry or sport or past time you always have those few people that bring the rest down.

Christian,

In those cases, human error is always present. Always will. I had to do a presentation on a casually report of a collision between two ship in Galveston while at the academy. It's crazy how much they dissect the incident, everything and everyone is looked at.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

a good report to look at(sailboat wise) is the "low speed" racing sailboat incident one where 3 or 4 sailors were lost racing around the farallones off san francisco a year ago or so...

in regards to how they dissect each case and appoint fault etc...even though it was not a collision between 2 boats...the information garnered and later explained was impressive...

in any case

what academy did you go to?

good stuff


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## SailRedemption (Jun 29, 2013)

christian.hess said:


> a good report to look at(sailboat wise) is the "low speed" racing sailboat incident one where 3 or 4 sailors were lost racing around the farallones off san francisco a year ago or so...
> 
> in regards to how they dissect each case and appoint fault etc...even though it was not a collision between 2 boats...the information garnered and later explained was impressive...
> 
> ...


Oh yea, after the coast Guard is finished with their reports, then the class societies(Lloyds, ABS) if it's a classed vessel, then the lawyers.. It's quite a lengthy report.

I went to Texas A&M Texas Maritime Academy in Galveston.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

jrd22 said:


> The problem was that a trainee was at the helm and when the captain told her to turn to port she turned to starboard and ran completely over the sailboat (the skipper survived, boat didn't).


A minor digression, but there is good reason many maritime organizations including the US Navy use "left" and "right" for helm commands. Nothing you can do about people with mild dyslexia but you can avoid letting vocabulary get in the way of performance.



BoatyardBoy said:


> In regards to language, every licensed officer of navigational watch is required to speak the language of the sea, which is English.


Some are better than others of course, and there are always cultural issues. For example, I sometimes hear foreign watch officers calling USCG Sector Baltimore or the Annapolis Harbormaster (!) asking permission to send crew ashore on leave. *grin* It happens often enough that Sector Baltimore appears to have added a page to their flip book to make sure crew have cleared C&I then just give permission.



smurphny said:


> There has been the underlying premise in many posts on this subject that small boats just have to give way to larger boats.


I have not inferred that from anyone else's posts and certainly did not imply it in my own. There is a big difference between "should" and "must."



smurphny said:


> There has been plenty of evidence of hideous seamanship by commercial captains around the globe. Of course I did not intend to generalize but I've seen way too many cowboy acts from the local high speed ferry operators to tankers. Somebody needs to rein these types in.


There have been a very small number of really bad performers in the news. There are some historically poor seamen, particularly among large ferries including the Staten Island Ferry and the Isle of Wight Ferry and--I'm told--some in the PNW who seem to operate as if they ran on rails. Regardless they are at least predictable, which is more than can be said about most recreational boaters.

My experience with commercial traffic has been pretty positive.

Large traffic is not nearly as maneuverable as you describe. Although people with personal experience to that effect, including me, have said otherwise you persist in your belief. I'm not sure what we can do make reality evident to you. We haven't even talked about restricted sightlines and visibility.



christian.hess said:


> thats where courtesy and in my opinion simple prudent seamanship plays a more important role than whatever rule is written.


Exactly. Ultimately the rules are the rules but as I noted earlier some simple civility goes a long way.

Hmm. Perhaps I can talk to Judith Martin about a column in Maritime Reporter or Maritime Log. Maybe gCaptain would host a blog ....


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

SVAuspicious said:


> Large traffic is not nearly as maneuverable as you describe. Although people with personal experience to that effect, including me, have said otherwise you persist in your belief. I'm not sure what we can do make reality evident to you. We haven't even talked about restricted sightlines and visibility.


Absolutely no disagreement that large vessels are not immediately maneuverable. This is progressively true even for smaller craft in smaller spaces. It's obvious. My issue is that large ships need to be responsive to essential contact, need to have someone responsible at the helm, use horn signals to indicate on which side they intend to pass (that is SUCH a simple thing to do), and be aware of the non-ability of small, slow sailboats and trawler type boats to maneuver out of their way. It can't be a case of, "I'm coming through and I'm bigger. Get out of the way." Having to alter course at a 90 degree angle when a large ship appears on the horizon and scurry out of the way of ANY possible path they may take is ludicrous and should not be expected. As I said, some enforcement against the few irresponsible commercial guys who blatantly scoff at rights of way and behave like bullies of the sea would go a LONG way to putting a muzzle on this kind of behavior. Instead of doing boardings of pleasure boats, looking for missing MARPOLE stickers, maybe the CG could catch some of the cowboys in action and give them a slap on the wrist once in a while.

I have transited NY Harbor many, many times and have never had any issue whatsoever with the ferries or taxis. They seem to be very good at knowing and abiding by the simple rules of the road. They strike me as pros. in a very difficult piece of water. That's the key to it all: that all parties KNOW the rights of way in the body of water they are operating in. They work and work well if adhered to.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

there is nothing more admirable to me than a real captain, a real mariner, a true pro like you say...

Ill agree with that...wish more were like that really, especially in major ports and harbors...

In san francisco there have been endless debates about some of these pros, pilots, etc that get paid gazillions yet often have the worst record...

the pay pilots get in some harbors has been heavily criticised in times of recession...

anyone who reads latitude 38 and other west coast mags and articles knows about this...and when they top it off with some major bad decisions like the coco busan that hit the south tower you can see why there are sentiments that want the merchant mariners to be BETTER.

we can all be BETTER, know the rules more clearly and act accordingly out there in the water or open sea or river or wherever

I do however beleive wholeheartedly that repeat experience and on the water time and seamanship garnered from being out there is much more important than knowing all the rules...

seamanship should have an alter ego name or superhero alternate name called COMMON SENSE

youd be surprised how your brain reacts out there sometimes...sometimes you know instantly the course of action to take, others not so clearly, say if your cold, tired etc...

thats where the rules come in...

nobody is going to side with you if you are for example a tired solo sailor who despite doing something marvelous like sail around the world decided to crash into another boat from extreme exhaustion despite him being on stbd tack or whatever

anywhoo

lets all strive to be better out there and instead of always laying blame on others simply avoid creating any sort of bad situation...

honestly its easier than it seems...


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

BoatyardBoy said:


> I
> 
> Not at all, my posts has been how it's easier for a smaller pleasure boat with no real schedule to alter course and give commercial vessel, large or small, some room so they can continue working. It's just courtesy. But don't get me wrong, I fully agree that there are bone heads out there, heck I went through the Academy with some that had no clue but they were smart so they passed the license tests.
> 
> ...


You've got that right. I used to be in the commercial fishing business and know totally irresponsible fishing boat operators. They are working and usually don't give a crap about rules. Many don't even know the basic rules of the road and have a screw-you attitude towards any pleasure boat that happens to be in their way. It's just the way it is. It's a rough business. You have to give them a WIDE berth I love it when they come through inlets, outriggers wide open.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Digging deep into history, I recall how difficult it once was to determine whether a crossing tanker was going to be a collision hazard (certainly no AIS at the time). Their size made them appear closer than they were and moving more slowly than they were. More often than not, they were long, long, long gone, before I was ever close to their path. 

I will bet there are some recreational sailors that have bitched that the tanker didn't give way and moved themselves, while the tanker knew all along there was no risk. So, what CPA distance constitutes a need for anyone to alter course?

In the end, if you're not at risk of swapping paint, no one needs to give way.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

one could counter that by saying, if you want to have peace and a nice sail one can always give way


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## SailRedemption (Jun 29, 2013)

Our standing and night orders call for a 1nm cpa from rigs and platforms here in the Gulf, but sometimes their proximity is hard to get away from the closer you get to the coast. We treat other vessels with same respect and give them the same, though you do what you can when you can.


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## SailRedemption (Jun 29, 2013)

smurphny said:


> It can't be a case of, "I'm coming through and I'm bigger. Get out of the way." Having to alter course at a 90 degree angle when a large ship appears on the horizon and scurry out of the way of ANY possible path they may take is ludicrous and should not be expected.


The reason I said that was because you weren't sure it's intentions and didn't have contact with bridge. Had you done that you might not have had a close encounter with the vessel. It may seem ludicrous but if you don't get ran down, it's not so ludicrous. I have had to turn almost that to go to the stern of a ship, but we don't mess with them, they are bigger and faster than my 300' vessel. I had rights but it was too easy for me to slow up a bit and alter course. You'd be surprised what just shaving off a knot or two and a 5-10 degree change will dramatically change cpa.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

christian.hess said:


> one could counter that by saying, if you want to have peace and a nice sail one can always give way


Exactly. As long as you begin far enough away that you would not yet be expected to stand-on.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

BoatyardBoy said:


> Our standing and night orders call for a 1nm cpa from rigs and platforms.......


Must not be the standing orders for coastal freight around here. I mean a mile is a long way. I could go down below, use the head, fix a sandwich and be back to the helm before I transit a mile.  Not to mention, that's the closest we would be.

I will bet that some new AIS users see a quarter mile CPA and start to freak. I wouldn't want to cross a tanker's bow by a quarter mile, but I'll take their stern at that distance without second thought.

When it comes to another sailboat, I wont' give way unless I expect to pass inside a boat length. You can tell the racers from the cruisers or newbs when you do that.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

jackdale said:


> And it is clear that you have not read the rules nor do you understand them.
> 
> The rules make the actions of vessels predictable. That is what everyone should want.


Oh yes indeedy, I "have not read the rules nor do you understand them." There you go, assuming, and we all know what that does, don't we?
No, it is much clearer YOU have never stood 80 feet up on the bridge of a vessel moving at 18 knots watching some idiot on a sailboat trying to get across your bow before he gets run down. Nor have you probably operated a tug and barge, watching some fool sail between you and your tow on a clear, sunny day.
Rules may very well be out there to cover every situation, but they do not cover the idiot who screams in panic into the radio (on ch 16) that he has the right of way as he is under sail, when both vessels are in a confined channel, because you are neither altering course nor slowing down.
You are obviously one of those who will be absolved of blame in the inquiry into your death, because you were following the rules when the situation required common sense, not a rule book.
Sorry, you and I will never agree on this one. Common sense trumps the rule book every single time.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

smurphny said:


> I love it when they come through inlets, outriggers wide open.


Some are not fishing outriggers, they are stabilizers. Keeping them deployed with full reefers might well be prudent given adequate width in the inlet.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

capta said:


> Oh yes indeedy, I "have not read the rules nor do you understand them." There you go, assuming, and we all know what that does, don't we?
> No, it is much clearer YOU have never stood 80 feet up on the bridge of a vessel moving at 18 knots watching some idiot on a sailboat trying to get across your bow before he gets run down. Nor have you probably operated a tug and barge, watching some fool sail between you and your tow on a clear, sunny day.
> Rules may very well be out there to cover every situation, but they do not cover the idiot who screams in panic into the radio (on ch 16) that he has the right of way as he is under sail, when both vessels are in a confined channel, because you are neither altering course nor slowing down.
> You are obviously one of those who will be absolved of blame in the inquiry into your death, because you were following the rules when the situation required common sense, not a rule book.
> Sorry, you and I will never agree on this one. Common sense trumps the rule book every single time.


Capta - you are correct. I have no experience on large commercial vessels

The vast majority of my 36,000 miles, 4 passages and 12 circumnavigations of Vancouver Island have been on sailboats and I have some mileage on powerboats.

On at least two occasions crews on ocean going vessels have mistaken my lights (sidelights and stern light) for a fishing vessel.

I also know that sailing vessels and others are not stand-on in TSSs, narrow channels and many harbours.

I do use AIS when available, I also use hand bearing compasses, MARPA and EBLs. I have also used VHF to communicate with tugs to sort out overtaking and cross situations. I also have contacted ocean fishing vessels to determine the location and depth of their nets.

You are also correct that the the rules do not cover idiots. I was concerned when I heard a sailing vessel challenge a tug and tow in Haro Strait which is a TSS. I have had stand-on sailing vessels alter course as I gave way putting us on another collision course. I have a port tack DDW wing-on-wing vessel I give the finger when I had to cut under his stern as he merrily went his own way. Power boats on auto-helm have caused my to alter course, luff up and take other evasive action.

That is why I am largely opposed to those who say read a book on sailing and just go. Education is essential for anyone who wants to play in the big ocean with big vessels.

For those who understand and apply the rules the oceans are safer, but no rule should be applied blindly. Of course, Colregs do account for idiots in Rules 2 and 17(b). Unfortunately that puts the onus on the crew that knows the rules.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

SVAuspicious said:


> Some are not fishing outriggers, they are stabilizers. Keeping them deployed with full reefers might well be prudent given adequate width in the inlet.


They are always the outriggers for the stabilizer birds on trawlers. Most often though, the birds are not even down yet. They could well wait until they are out of the narrow inlet to lower the arms.


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## svzephyr44 (Jun 26, 2000)

Hey - we all know the yacht was the stand on vessel. I am sure the tanker could have turned in time........






I have been told by my UK friends that the racing rules specifically state "don't screw with the commercial traffic!" Of course they say it in Brit.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

smurphny said:


> They are always the outriggers for the stabilizer birds on trawlers. Most often though, the birds are not even down yet. They could well wait until they are out of the narrow inlet to lower the arms.


I think that's a judgment call and I defer to the skipper. Deciding to put the stabilizing outriggers down in flat water might well be a prudent call in the interest of safety of crew and vessel.



svzephyr44 said:


> Hey - we all know the yacht was the stand on vessel. I am sure the tanker could have turned in time........
> 
> <snip>
> 
> I have been told by my UK friends that the racing rules specifically state "don't screw with the commercial traffic!" Of course they say it in Brit.


Every race I've been in as included giving way to commercial traffic in the Instructions. Automatic DSQ.


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## Cruiser2B (Jan 6, 2011)

svzephyr44 said:


> Hey - we all know the yacht was the stand on vessel. I am sure the tanker could have turned in time........
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have read briefly thru almost all posts, prolly missed some info but in the above situation I don't think the sailboat was the stand on vessel. As I am sure many of you would agree with based solely on the rules of gross tonnage,no such rule, BUT..... There are also rules in place for such situations which trump the basic stand on-give way situation, in this instance I am sure this tanker was constrained by her draft, restricted in her maneuverability and operating in a narrow channel. All of which would have made given her the right of way making her the stand on vessel.

I know here in Hampton Roads the deep water channels extend miles off shore, where all of the above rules would still apply to give the larger vessel right of way.

As has been stated many times, use common sense. And USE your radio that's is why you have it. If you are in a heavy commercial area monitor 16 and 13. 13 is used and monitored by commercial mariners and if you hail them they will respond. Many days I have been out near Thimble Shoals Channel (main entrance to Hampton Roads) and have been hailed by a large tanker asking me where I was going. Our conversation was always short and to the point. Best of all made for safe passage for both vessel.

Just remember as a captain of any vessel if there is a safety device on your boat such as AIS, RADAR, RADIO and you fail to use it and there is an accident the Coast Guard will find you to some degree to be at fault. Very rarely in accidents at sea does the coast guard find fault with just one captain when more than one vessel is involved.


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## donjuanluis (Jun 24, 2013)

jackdale said:


> Huh?
> 
> Not according to the International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea.


Common sense will save your ass instead of IRPC.


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## donjuanluis (Jun 24, 2013)

I've been sailing in an extended area where we have more than 200 huge commercial vessels standing by or moving around to get access to port, and sometimes with cruising pleasure transatlantic tenders going around without any attention to sailing vessels or any rule so far. So, the general rule to keep our boat and the crew safe is to avoid situations no matter what the rules give you the right of way. AIS is just and aid for special situation on vessels with limited manouver, against same kind of vessels. And same thing apply to road traffic. COMMON SENSE to keep safety of people.


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## SailRedemption (Jun 29, 2013)

Cruiser2B said:


> Very rarely in accidents at sea does the coast guard find fault with just one captain when more than one vessel is involved.


Not very rarely, always. Trust me on this.

https://homeport.uscg.mil/mycg/port...BV_EngineID=cccdadgdimjjgdgcfngcfkmdfhfdfgn.0

Click the pdf link on the right hand side

This is the casualty report for the incident on the Mississippi River between the tanker Tintomara and the tow vessel Mel Oliver. The tow vessel turned to port in a head on situation causing a collision, the Mel Oliver would definitely be at fault, right? If you read in the conclusions, they find some fault in the Tintomara even though the tow boat turned to port in a head on situation. AND the find fault in the USCG for not properly monitoring vessels and tow vessels in the river.

Oh these things are never clean, cut and paste, black and white.. Crazy stuff.

Be safe out there, you never know.. When in doubt go the opposite or perpendicular course or stop.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

we often hove to to stop our progress and potential of speeding a collision many a time....but as you will see down below not always! jajaja

entering panama harbor, san fran...off thailand...many places

basically if you stop, take a breather....put your glasses on, or whatever...even take a piss and think things over its better than assuming stuff is being done on the other parties side to avoid collision

oh btw

I dont like to say stories like this often cause I find its like tattle tailing or whatever you guys say up north call it...

all sailors, club sailor, racers, cruisers arent cut out of the same mountain...

people are different...react differently etc...

on my very very old boat, way back when...before ais, we didnt even have radar or anything just a garmin handlheld for plotting

standing your watch was a big deal...HUGE, always on the lookout.

off the coast of cuba beggining the turn towards florida after a stop in cancun we started to see the big cruise ships...cities at sea type deals...
both the very "experienced" crew I had and his lady friend went round and round in circles cause they could not make out what the cruise ships were doing

I was so exhausted from helming a 12 hour squally watch just before that they decided to stay on deck in the rain helming...

only after waking up did I see the tracks on the laptop and to my amazement this crap happened 6 or 7 times during a 2 hour period or so.

instead of staying on course...being prepared to call up the ships and take a course of action their response was to tack over a gazillion times trying to see which way the cruise and other ships were doing

I told them why didnt you heave to?

and they said oh but then we would not be making progress...and I was like WTF? jajajajajaja

after thinking this over a million times they would of realized that even heaving to at that point they were being sucked into the gulf stream so the no progress deal was non existent.

apples and oranges out there for sure

peace


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Yep, being that in the last few moments, both vessels in any situation are to maneuver to avoid collision, regardless of stand-on/off status, leaves doubt as to why it came to that situation in the first place. It really puts the onus on all vessels to give each other plenty of room when at all possible. The video on YouTube that shows the trawler hitting the tall ship is an interesting one. The one showing the racing boat being dismasted has appeared before. Sheer stupidity trying to run across the bow of a tanker. Makes you just scratch your head wondering what they were thinking.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

donjuanluis said:


> Common sense will save your ass instead of IRPC.


Sometimes common sense is not so common.

Two crossing vessels that alter course to pass astern of each other wind up in a head on situation.

Stand on vessels have obligations.



> Rule 17- Action by Stand-on Vessel Return to the top of the page
> 
> (a) (i) Where one of two vessels is to keep out of the way, the other shall keep her course and speed.
> (ii) The latter vessel may however take action to avoid collision by her maneuver alone, as soon as it becomes apparent to her that the vessel required to keep out of the way is not taking appropriate action in compliance with these Rules.
> ...


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

BoatyardBoy said:


> Not very rarely, always. Trust me on this...


Your example seems to suggest "never," not "always." Right? Kinda like mixing port and starboard?


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

oh oh jajaja

man I need to avoid these threads...

oh well


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

svzephyr44 said:


> Hey - we all know the yacht was the stand on vessel. I am sure the tanker could have turned in time........
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That collision occurred in a TSS. The sailing vessel was not stand on.


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## svzephyr44 (Jun 26, 2000)

jackdale said:


> That collision occurred in a TSS. The sailing vessel was not stand on.


For all those who missed it the "stand on vessel" was a joke!

Fair winds and following seas


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

The AIS gives the little guy advance warning of potential hazard or not. Common sense and COLREGS come into play. Being the ship disturber and waving the rule book may not be enough and time when to decide a course of action was a few miles back.


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## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

I would think AIS would make knowing what's going on alot easier and in fact reduce the number of calls needed. If you pick up a target it gives the course, speed and destination. 
a quick assessment maybe some simple math would tell you whether you any action would be required, and the correction if any would likely be minor. 

If the ships are coming in to a port, they typically travel pretty well defined routes often in well marked channels or traffic zones. Ferries travel regular routes on a schedule..etc.
I know exactly where the Staten Island ferry is going.. 
I often listen to the bridge conversations of the pilots, tugs and tankers coming in to NY.
As they make their arrangements.


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## donjuanluis (Jun 24, 2013)

jackdale said:


> Sometimes common sense is not so common.
> 
> Two crossing vessels that alter course to pass astern of each other wind up in a head on situation.
> 
> Stand on vessels have obligations.


I had a situation against a croat tender, crowded with passengers, open waters, I was sailing, he was motoring, not COLREGS did matter to him, even I had the right of way, so apply the any ways common sense rule, avoid avoid avoid....
I play chicken


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

smurphny said:


> They are always the outriggers for the stabilizer birds on trawlers. Most often though, the birds are not even down yet. They could well wait until they are out of the narrow inlet to lower the arms.


Looks like the fellow who followed us into Barnegat Inlet yesterday and blew his horn as we were not moving fast enough and were in a confined space so we couldn't give him room to pass.

Interestingly he pulled those arms up when we turned the corner and backed off when the CG station came in view.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Tempest said:


> I would think AIS would make knowing what's going on alot easier and in fact reduce the number of calls needed. If you pick up a target it gives the course, speed and destination.
> a quick assessment maybe some simple math would tell you whether you any action would be required, and the correction if any would likely be minor.
> 
> If the ships are coming in to a port, they typically travel pretty well defined routes often in well marked channels or traffic zones...


I agree. Used properly, AIS should reduce the number of hails needed because you can see what's happening so much better. While in theory nuisance calls could increase because you can hail by name (or DSC by MMSI), I have not heard any such calls in my area, which includes a lot of heavy shipping traffic, all of whom are required to transmit AIS. Maybe those nuisance calls are happening somewhere else.

Here's an example of where AIS greatly helped me yesterday. I was approaching my home port, motorsailing close-hauled but with a strong current pushing me downriver. I need to hit the channel on the north side of the river. If I miss it, current will make it difficult to backtrack. As you can see here, I'm running out of water on my current tack, so I need to come about and cross the river. But I also have tugboat Bohemia coming downriver pushing a barge, preventing me from tacking:










I slow down and wait until I see that his 5-minute vector places him past me, so it is safe for me to tack so long as I keep my speed slow enough that my own 5-minute vector does not cross his. Note, however, that the dredging vessel Padre Island is approaching from downriver, so I need to also consider him in my maneuvering:










Once Bohemia has passed me I quickly cross the channel. I actually passed closer behind him than I would have preferred (and encountered some prop turbulence), but this was necessary because Padre Island was approaching from downriver and I needed to get out of his way:










Now safely out of the channel, I navigate to my home port without the current carrying me past:










But what's wrong with this picture??? Yes, the vessels passed each other starboard-to-starboard! I still don't completely know why. They may have communicated with each other on the ship-to-ship channel, but I heard no contact on Ch 16. I suspected that Bohemia may have been headed to a bulkhead on the south side of the river. A target query on Bohemia showed this:










Bohemia was reporting his destination as Mantua, but you can see in the pic that he's going AWAY from Mantua. His reported ETA is 1700 local time on August 15. Only problem is yesterday was August 16. One of the things you learn after using AIS for awhile is that static data needs to be updated manually, and is often incorrect because the crew forgets to update it. So position, speed, course, and other dynamic data tends to be pretty reliable, but static data can be very unreliable. If you see a vessel that's reporting itself as "moored" but its speed is reported at 10 kts, chances are it's moving 10 kts and you'd better get out of the way!


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

yikes

whats the point?

I sailed in the san joaquin river where this was common

ais would render FUN and tacking up the river an absolute nightmare

screw that man

throw me in the old school crowd


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## SailRedemption (Jun 29, 2013)

TakeFive said:


> Your example seems to suggest "never," not "always." Right? Kinda like mixing port and starboard?


Hahaha, yea that's what I meant! Too many double negatives is what I'm blaming. A casualty of negatives haha!



TakeFive said:


> But what's wrong with this picture??? Yes, the vessels passed each other starboard-to-starboard! I still don't completely know why. They may have communicated with each other on the ship-to-ship channel, but I heard no contact on Ch 16. I suspected that Bohemia may have been headed to a bulkhead on the south side of the river. A target query on Bohemia showed this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If you are in Port or on a river, in a Harbor, the traffic channel to be on is 13. They change this so people aren't clogging up the safety/distress channel 16. Try that next time. Also, VTS channels are usually 11 or 12. If you ask on 13 someone will tell you, that way you can listen to VTS give the next commercial vessel going the same way as you traffic info like in bound/outbound traffic, warnings, current current speeds and time of tide/ebb..

They probably passed STBD because depending on how long the tow was the tug was pushing, it may have been easier to make the turn on the outside, or the water was deeper there so the dredge accommodated him, or the dredge may have already been hugging that side of the channel, or one of the vessels needed to get on their Port side of the channel for a dock, or all of the above Sometimes it's easier, but as long as both parties agree it's good.

In regards to AIS, yea if it's a offshore vessel changing or shifting docks they may not update it till the get their next destination and get underway out to sea. We leave our AIS as moored when moving around Port Fourchon, LA, and don't change it till we get underway to sea. But yes, believe the SOG, COG before the other info.

If you could see some of the passing arrangements made down here in the bayou and the proximity, you guys would probably get a kick. I'll attach this little time lapse I took one night when I was shifting docks, wasn't that busy but it gives you a good picture.

The Shuffle: http://youtu.be/l2jXo_HhP_I






Ps: Yea we drive backwards a lot.. So your typical Port to port calls are instead swapped with "one whistle" or for a STBD to STBD "two whistle"


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## trantor12020 (Mar 11, 2006)

"I heard one yo yo hail and identify himself as the "sailboat, under sail, a half mile off your starboard bow, what are your intentions?" The cargo vessel replied "we will maintain course and speed". The sailboat replies that their AIS suggests a conflict, they are under sail, and again asks the cargo vessel their intentions. The cargo skipper replies, "we will maintain course and speed". There was tons of sea room in their vicinity."

This reminds me of the warship and lighthouse scenario.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

BoatyardBoy said:


> ...We leave our AIS as moored when moving around Port Fourchon, LA, and don't change it till we get underway to sea....


Hmmm, just realize that some AIS display devices allow the user to suppress collision alarms for vessels reporting themselves as moored. This feature is meant to reduce the number of false alarms when tacking up a river with a bunch of moored vessels along the sides. But in your case, it may prevent someone else's collision alarm from going off when it is needed.


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## Hush34 (Dec 12, 2013)

The video of the yacht being run down during the Cowes race is proof positive that sometime sailors can be damn idiots. Who in their right mind would have a race, where things can go wrong, in side the confines of an area where shipping traffic is present. Come on....they are lucky they only were dismasted.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

chef2sail said:


> Looks like the fellow who followed us into Barnegat Inlet yesterday and blew his horn as we were not moving fast enough and were in a confined space so we couldn't give him room to pass.
> 
> Interestingly he pulled those arms up when we turned the corner and backed off when the CG station came in view.


How dare you obstruct his way! Glad to hear you made it in and out of the infamous inlet Did you try getting into Horseshoe Cove? I was unsuccessful and nosed up on a sand bar trying to get in immediately after Sandy.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

christian.hess said:


> yikes
> 
> whats the point?
> 
> ...


My point is that AIS, when properly displayed, gives very useful predictive information on where other vessels will be in a few minutes. You can use this information to make informed decisions on whether you have time to cross in front of them, or need to pass behind them. The vector display allows you to do this without having to do any calculations - it's all there at a glance. It takes the guesswork out of your decisions, making it much safer to share the river with others.

chef2sail has made the point that AIS is almost worthless in the Chesapeake. Having acquired some more experience there in the last couple of years, I tend to agree with him. In that area there are way too many recreational boats with class B transponders that clutter up the screen. I only really care about the big class A boats, since they're the ones that I always need to yield to. I'm working with the OpenCPN developers to get a feature added to filter out the class B transponders and only display the class A ones.

I do not have a class B transponder - just an AIS receiver. I don't pretend to think that the big ships would even try to steer around me if they saw me on AIS. It's my job to stay away from them.


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## svzephyr44 (Jun 26, 2000)

Hush34 said:


> The video of the yacht being run down during the Cowes race is proof positive that sometime sailors can be damn idiots. Who in their right mind would have a race, where things can go wrong, in side the confines of an area where shipping traffic is present. Come on....they are lucky they only were dismasted.


The Royal Yacht Squadron Cowes (yes, like moo moo) is one of the, if not the oldest, yacht club in the world. Brief summmary:

_"Founded in 1815, the Royal Yacht Squadron is the most prestigious yacht club in the United Kingdom and arguably the world. Its clubhouse is located in Cowes Castle on the Isle of Wight in the United Kingdom. The club's patron is Queen Elizabeth II and the club's Admiral is Prince Philip"_

Note that they have a Admiral, not a Commodore... LOL

So they have some vig!

More here: https://www.rys.org.uk/

They have very few problems dealing with the commercial traffic. First, its a DSQ for sure. If you watch the end of the video you will see the fleet finishing down the side of the tanker.

It is also the starting point of the Fastnet, one of the top 5 or 6 ocean races in the world.

More here: 




The Royal Yacht *Squadrons* have a history of their own, tied to their sponsorship by the British crown.

Anyway, well off the topic of AIS but I thought interesting.

Fair winds and following seas


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

smurphny said:


> Yep, being that in the last few moments, both vessels in any situation are to maneuver to avoid collision, regardless of stand-on/off status, leaves doubt as to why it came to that situation in the first place. It really puts the onus on all vessels to give each other plenty of room when at all possible.


It better not be the last few moments. The COLREGS and Inland Rules both say "in sight." As jackdale quoted "as soon as it becomes apparent to her that the vessel required to keep out of the way is not taking appropriate action in compliance with these Rules." Any reasonable person (which is part of the standard used by the courts) will say that an issue should be apparent much much earlier than the last few seconds.



chef2sail said:


> Looks like the fellow who followed us into Barnegat Inlet yesterday and blew his horn as we were not moving fast enough and were in a confined space so we couldn't give him room to pass.
> 
> Interestingly he pulled those arms up when we turned the corner and backed off when the CG station came in view.


In fairness he was probably having steering issues in the inlet and hoped you could go faster. Outriggers down will moderately improve stability (sometimes every bit helps when the reefers are full) and pulling them up will be easier, less likely to result in damage to the boat, and safer for crew in the calmer waters inside.

As you described the situation he was overtaking and therefore give-way. Sometimes you (he) have (has) to deal.



BoatyardBoy said:


> In regards to AIS, yea if it's a offshore vessel changing or shifting docks they may not update it till the get their next destination and get underway out to sea. We leave our AIS as moored when moving around Port Fourchon, LA, and don't change it till we get underway to sea. But yes, believe the SOG, COG before the other info.


Sometimes. Sometimes updating the AIS just doesn't bubble up to the top of the task list for a watch or two.



Hush34 said:


> The video of the yacht being run down during the Cowes race is proof positive that sometime sailors can be damn idiots. Who in their right mind would have a race, where things can go wrong, in side the confines of an area where shipping traffic is present.


Some places have no choice - race with commercial traffic or don't race at all. As noted earlier, most Instructions provide for disqualifying any participant who interferes with commercial shipping. COLREGS (or Inland Rules) still apply with the addition of another more restrictive layer of requirements imposed on racers (NOT on those not racing, commercial or recreational).



TakeFive said:


> chef2sail has made the point that AIS is almost worthless in the Chesapeake. Having acquired some more experience there in the last couple of years, I tend to agree with him.


I still find AIS to be very useful. I do pull my alarm circles down to almost nothing, mostly because so many recreational boats with AIS transponders leave them turned on even while plugged in at the dock. Silliness. I usually leave mine in silent mode even underway.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

SVAuspicious said:


> It better not be the last few moments. The COLREGS and Inland Rules both say "in sight." As jackdale quoted "as soon as it becomes apparent to her that the vessel required to keep out of the way is not taking appropriate action in compliance with these Rules." Any reasonable person (which is part of the standard used by the courts) will say that an issue should be apparent much much earlier than the last few seconds.
> 
> In fairness he was probably having steering issues in the inlet and hoped you could go faster. Outriggers down will moderately improve stability (sometimes every bit helps when the reefers are full) and pulling them up will be easier, less likely to result in damage to the boat, and safer for crew in the calmer waters inside.
> 
> ...


Let me make this a bit simpler. When you, as the stand-on vessel, do your duty by maintaining heading and speed so as not to confuse the burdened vessel and then realize that the burdened vessel is failing to take evasive action, it is then incumbent upon you to avoid collision by whatever means possible. In close quarters, it happens in the last few seconds, that you realize that boat is not altering course or is doing something stupid. If a collision were to occur, fault may well be distributed because you were not fast enough to avoid whatever stupid thing the other boat did. In the last few moments, the "fault" is necessarily on both boats because of this wording, fair or not. Think of a crowded inlet circumstance, boats zipping every which way, many totally ignorant of the basic rules of the road. Many not even aware of the difference between port and starboard. A spaceship coming in the opposite direction bounces over a wake and fails to pass close port to port and instead cuts right in front of you, out of control, getting speared by your bowsprit You were not quick enough for the rules and did not have room enough anyway to "avoid collision." So, fault is partly yours under this wording just for being at the wrong place at the wrong time.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

smurphny said:


> Let me make this a bit simpler. When you, as the stand-on vessel, do your duty by maintaining heading and speed so as not to confuse the burdened vessel and then realize that the burdened vessel is failing to take evasive action, it is then incumbent upon you to avoid collision by whatever means possible. In close quarters, it happens in the last few seconds, that you realize that boat is not altering course or is doing something stupid.


We clearly disagree quite firmly on this. Nothing should come down to the last few seconds. Seconds are short. Really short. If it comes to seconds there will be plenty of fault to allocate. There is no excuse. Mistakes will have been made.

Read the rules again. Something to the effect (from memory) that "as soon as it becomes apparent that the give-way vessel is not taking appropriate action the stand-on vessel shall take action to avoid collision." That better not be "a few moments" (your words) before collision.

We've been talking about recreational boats interacting with commercial traffic here. Not a Catalina 22 and 17' Bayliner (neither of which is likely to have AIS) in an inlet or a fairway. Even with all recreational traffic the stand-on vessel should be acting well before the last few moments.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

SVAuspicious said:


> We clearly disagree quite firmly on this. Nothing should come down to the last few seconds. Seconds are short. Really short. If it comes to seconds there will be plenty of fault to allocate. There is no excuse. Mistakes will have been made.
> 
> Read the rules again. Something to the effect (from memory) that "as soon as it becomes apparent that the give-way vessel is not taking appropriate action the stand-on vessel shall take action to avoid collision." That better not be "a few moments" (your words) before collision.
> 
> We've been talking about recreational boats interacting with commercial traffic here. Not a Catalina 22 and 17' Bayliner (neither of which is likely to have AIS) in an inlet or a fairway. Even with all recreational traffic the stand-on vessel should be acting well before the last few moments.


We're thinking along different lines. I am thinking of the very common close quarters situations (with the Bayliners) and how a perfectly competent person could be unjustly allocated some portion of blame for the actions of an idiot merely from being underway. The unfair nature of this bothers me. It seems that the only way to avoid the this kind of scenario is to just stay away from those kinds of places. Maybe you don't have the crowded conditions where you are to envision this kind of close situation. I'm thinking Port Jeff inlet on a crowded weekend afternoon. It is complete bedlam with ferries, sailboats, lobster boats, small and large, fast and slow, all funneling in two directions through a long narrow passage with strong current and wakes bouncing off the rip-rap. The potential to be hit by someone or vice versa is high and the blame would, as indicated in this thread, be distributed. Maybe you think it "better not be seconds" but it IS a matter of seconds when boats are within yards of you. If it was not, and there was time and room to react, it would not be an issue.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

TakeFive said:


> My point is that AIS, when properly displayed, gives very useful predictive information on where other vessels will be in a few minutes. You can use this information to make informed decisions on whether you have time to cross in front of them, or need to pass behind them. The vector display allows you to do this without having to do any calculations - it's all there at a glance. It takes the guesswork out of your decisions, making it much safer to share the river with others.
> 
> chef2sail has made the point that AIS is almost worthless in the Chesapeake. Having acquired some more experience there in the last couple of years, I tend to agree with him. In that area there are way too many recreational boats with class B transponders that clutter up the screen. I only really care about the big class A boats, since they're the ones that I always need to yield to. I'm working with the OpenCPN developers to get a feature added to filter out the class B transponders and only display the class A ones.
> 
> I do not have a class B transponder - just an AIS receiver. I don't pretend to think that the big ships would even try to steer around me if they saw me on AIS. It's my job to stay away from them.


exactly...didnt imply you were doing anything wrong, sorry if it seemed that way


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

smurphny said:


> We're thinking along different lines. I am thinking of the very common close quarters situations (with the Bayliners) and how a perfectly competent person could be unjustly allocated some portion of blame for the actions of an idiot merely from being underway.


Let's start with the fact that this thread is about AIS, and AIS is not relevant to that scenario.

Part of good and prudent seamanship ("competence") is not getting into collision avoidance situations where seconds matter. At six knots, in a few seconds I travel only five feet.



smurphny said:


> Maybe you don't have the crowded conditions where you are to envision this kind of close situation. I'm thinking Port Jeff inlet on a crowded weekend afternoon.


Among other things I'm a delivery skipper. I'm in and out of all kinds of places. I'm very familiar with Port Jeff, with Newport, with NY Harbor, with the mouths of the Chesapeake and Delaware Bays, with both Beauforts, with Charleston, with FLL, with MIA, .... I served on commercial tankers in TX, FL, DE, NJ, and NY. I ran tugs in Puget Sound. My home waters are middle Chesapeake Bay with big commercial traffic, tugs and tows, and huge amounts of recreational traffic including racers from multiple jurisdictions in multiple classes. The mouth of the Severn River on a summer weekend can be as sporty if not more so than Port Jeff. None of that measures up to the time I spent on the Solent - race weekend there makes Port Jeff look like Walden Pond.

Anyone that is dealing with collision avoidance scenarios in seconds v. minutes needs to rethink their avocation.


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## svHyLyte (Nov 13, 2008)

SVAuspicious said:


> ...
> 
> Anyone that is dealing with collision avoidance scenarios in seconds v. minutes needs to rethink their avocation.


Absolutely correct. It seems that "Common Sense" is more and more becoming an Uncommon Virtue.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

just be safe out there guys

play it safe, ALWAYS


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

christian.hess said:


> just be safe out there guys
> 
> play it safe, ALWAYS


Fully agree. Avoiding collision in the last few seconds is not safe, not prudent, not competent.


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## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

The Port Jeff Ferries are pretty easy to see and predict. If I see one coming over from Conn. that would overtake me in the inlet, I'll simply stand off outside and wait for it to clear. Likewise you can look down into the harbor and see if one is headed back out the channel. As for the other traffic, I'll often do the same, and look for an open spot. I like to keep my boating as stress free as possible. That often means letting others clear whether or not I'd be stand-on or not.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

SVAuspicious said:


> Let's start with the fact that this thread is about AIS, and AIS is not relevant to that scenario.
> 
> Part of good and prudent seamanship ("competence") is not getting into collision avoidance situations where seconds matter. At six knots, in a few seconds I travel only five feet.
> 
> ...


If that darting Bayliner turns directly into your path and a collision occurs and the accident report can be interpreted as attributing part of the responsibility to you for not performing an avoidance maneuver, perhaps you'll understand what I'm getting at. You seem to be ignoring the fact that, as careful as you may be, you are not in control of what others may do. Tell me you've never been in an inlet situation where you just cross your fingers and hope that no one does something stupid. Avoidance is only possible given enough time and space.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Tempest said:


> The Port Jeff Ferries are pretty easy to see and predict. If I see one coming over from Conn. that would overtake me in the inlet, I'll simply stand off outside and wait for it to clear. Likewise you can look down into the harbor and see if one is headed back out the channel. As for the other traffic, I'll often do the same, and look for an open spot. I like to keep my boating as stress free as possible. That often means letting others clear whether or not I'd be stand-on or not.


I've heard the ferry sound its horn multiple times on the way in and out, trying to navigate through. I don't envy the captain on heavy weekends. The last time I was in there a couple of years ago, after finding a break, I had boats ahead, behind, trying to pass, swerving at right angles to the general flow, talk about having "situational awareness." I used to live and work there when it was not so crazy.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

murphy I fully understand what you are saying...

thats why we must always strive to be safe...

some things in fact most are out of our direct control, expect the worst hope for the best applies well here?

being ocd and trying to control everything as a sailor is a sure fire way to not have *FUN*.

HAVING SAID THAT there is a difference between being blase to the point of being dangerous out there and simply low key but attentive...

I for one am a very fidgety watchperson...I always scan the horizon, behind me, above, below etc(might have to do with my motorcycling backgorund) who knows?

but I know that not everyone is like that...however just because Im fidgety as a watchperson doesnt mean Im fidgety as a trimmer or helmsman etc...

thats why expecting everyone to sail and act the same is a futile process...you can have general rules but you cannot take out every indviduals idiosincracies and likes and dislikes and throw them out the door and expect everyone to react and ACT the same way

(not saying you are saying this, just in general terms.)

thats like expecting everyone to own the same sailboat and sail the same speed and thats that...jajajajajaja

how fun would that be???????????????? ais or not! jajajaja


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## goboatingnow (Oct 10, 2008)

svzephyr44 said:


> Hey - we all know the yacht was the stand on vessel. I am sure the tanker could have turned in time........
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The yacht was NOT the stand on vessel, if you are going to make a point at least understand the rules that pertain in the waters where it occurred. sheesh


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## goboatingnow (Oct 10, 2008)

Having sailed for 30 years in THE most crowded waters on the planet, Id like to give my viewpoint.

Firstly anyone using AIS to "demand" rights is simply a moron. There are no "rights " at sea. Personally as VHF bridge to bridge is not that common round these waters, I have never heard a sailboat using AIS to demand clearance. So out may be a very isolated set of events.

My own view is that , absolutely by way of courtesy, small boats should "attempt" to change course to stay out of contact with large shipping, thats simple common sense, In particular that change of course should be done before any risk of collision exists.

HOWEVER

Can I say that with the advent of AIS transponders , its actually more dangerous to act outside the COLREGS then before. A ship monitoring your AIS is expecting ( well maybe) that you stand your course. The very worst thing is erratic and unexpected behaviour

At sea I virtually ALWAYS find that with AIS, large ships steer to avoid me, Ive seen ships over the horizon adjust course to avoid me. ( I suspect its the WAFI syndrome).

BUT, In situations where there is a lot of traffic, you have to rely on the COLREGS, the very worst thing is to duck and dive and jig around. What large ships went is certainty, either they move or you move, but worse case is everyone is adjusting course.

As to using VHF to arrange passing, I have found it a mixed bag, some ships are very good, others just ignore you and plow on regards. 

What I do subscribe to is this rule 

Do not stand on into danger.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

How many recreational boats, including sailboats and power boats have AIS now? I don't have one, although it's on the list. I can definitely see how it could be used as a toy more than a tool by those trying to assert their electronic prowess. It would take an almost laughable amount of hubris to contact a tanker and ask him to alter course in the open sea.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

goboatingnow said:


> Having sailed for 30 years in THE most crowded waters on the planet, Id like to give my viewpoint.
> 
> Firstly anyone using AIS to "demand" rights is simply a moron. There are no "rights " at sea. Personally as VHF bridge to bridge is not that common round these waters, I have never heard a sailboat using AIS to demand clearance. So out may be a very isolated set of events.
> 
> ...


where is this most crowded place?


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## goboatingnow (Oct 10, 2008)

christian.hess said:


> where is this most crowded place?


The straits of Dover


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

cool, 

you might well be the most congested area in a certain type of boat(s) commercial traffic, etc but there are many places around the world that have equally congested and hard to navigate and maneuver scenarios as well

you will see that many of us agree with you about using prudent seamanship and common sense and courtesy over any form of rule as a general way to sail freely and happily...

but there are just too many ways to skin this cat and overall anyone arguing against common sense, or anyone extolling the virtues of certain rules over say avoiding collisions honestly is wasting their breath

many many many colreg rules have the disclaimer that auspicious posted earlier basically voiding this scenario and course of action if this situation arises or is implied etc

those of us who HAVE studied the rules ad naseum understand and can relate to this....but I must emphasize that despite that Im a much happier mariner and sailor by simply ceding and giving way most of the time...

there is a philosophical aspect to what Im trying to say here, without getting too long winded

why always be right if the world is imperfect?


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

TakeFive said:


> My point is that AIS, when properly displayed, gives very useful predictive information on where other vessels will be in a few minutes. You can use this information to make informed decisions on whether you have time to cross in front of them, or need to pass behind them.


I'm sorry, but can you not get the exact same "very useful predictive information" just by watching the vessel for a few minutes?


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

christian.hess said:


> where is this most crowded place?


In my travels, I believe the Red Sea was the busiest seaway I've ever been in, especially considering all the vessels I encountered were steaming at full speed. Sometimes there were 4 or 5 vessels within a mile or two of each other, steaming both north and south. "Traffic Separation Schemes be damned, full speed ahead", they all seemed to be saying.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

capta said:


> I'm sorry, but can you not get the exact same "very useful predictive information" just by watching the vessel for a few minutes?


may I add(to what capta is saying) without being too much of a ludite that you can do this by keeping a watch at all times?

how is looking at the computer any more helpful than seing what the boats are doing in "real time"

now of course this would be in good weather and visibilty BUT it begs the question

also

if you were to check out pros and cons for ais threads we are forgetting that ais only applies to those vessels using this service...

how helpful is ais when you have a million wood shrimpers and pangas, and fishermen that dont even carry running lights much less a vhf or antenna, or coms?

this info and thread is all fine and dandy but honestly only usefuful to those of us where the circumstances show it as so...

ais is still far far away from being a real worldwide aid to navigation as is the case with most new technology

takes time and needs to be standardized and enforced...

which as we all know is impossible on a global level


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

capta said:


> In my travels, I believe the Red Sea was the busiest seaway I've ever been in, especially considering all the vessels I encountered were steaming at full speed. Sometimes there were 4 or 5 vessels within a mile or two of each other, steaming both north and south. "Traffic Separation Schemes be damned, full speed ahead", they all seemed to be saying.


yes I too agree that the red sea is really high up there, probably the most congested in "general" terms however officially there are others more congested...

we had the same views going up lots of traffic up and down not just one way..plus there was the free for all attitude too which makes things worse

having said that Id love to sail the english channel and also cruise(although hard) viscaya and the northern coast of spain where I specialized my cooking.

someday


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

AIS has got to be a big help, especially in limited visibility. Are they line of sight? If so, in good vis, keeping watch is just as good and allows you to simply record relative position without having to program some intersect into a computer. If bearing is not changing, it doesn't take long to figure you need to react. At night I would rather be looking out than looking at a screen. I see there is a VHF with an AIS screen available. Anyone have one of those? If they have a useful display of AIS signals, it seems like a good idea if you're replacing a radio, kind of a twofer.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

christian.hess said:


> those of us who HAVE studied the rules ad naseum understand and can relate to this....


Look, I am not reading posts here, just scanned and got this line. All I can say is that some people need to actually get out sailing before they put their flag in the turf as to what everyone elses opinion ought to be. And some who think they have experience on boats other than sailing boats ought to go sailing too.

I do except CaptA in this. Not only do I know him, but he has experience from the real world. So to his recent point about where is a busy area for shipping I am delighted to write to him: The busiest I've found was Singapore Straits (and Malacca obviously), Gibraltar was fantastic. I didnt find the Red Sea was at all congested but it could have been just luck, there were lots of ships, though. The Med as a whole has a fair few ships especially at points of confluence (confluence isnt the right word: the point where all the ships, wherever they are going, need to come close to one headland or point. sort of the waypoint that everyone in the world seems to use), New Providence Channel between the Bahamas is one. Thick with traffic and once outside everyone splits up.

Now, back to other threads...


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

smurphny said:


> AIS has got to be a big help, especially in limited visibility. Are they line of sight? If so, in good vis, keeping watch is just as good and allows you to simply record relative position without having to program some intersect into a computer. If bearing is not changing, it doesn't take long to figure you need to react. At night I would rather be looking out than looking at a screen. I see there is a VHF with an AIS screen available. Anyone have one of those? If they have a useful display of AIS signals, it seems like a good idea if you're replacing a radio, kind of a twofer.


mike o reilly just talked about his AIS vhf on the 500 thread and he loves it also its well priced


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

goboatingnow said:


> The straits of Dover


I don't agree. I think the Solent has the most traffic with the greatest mix of power and sail, recreational and commercial. I haven't sailed everywhere but that is the most I've sailed in.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

christian.hess said:


> may I add(to what capta is saying) without being too much of a ludite that you can do this by keeping a watch at all times?
> 
> how is looking at the computer any more helpful than seing what the boats are doing in "real time"


Use a hand bearing compass during good visibility.

Use radar and an EBL or MARPA (or ARPA) in restricted visbility.

AIS is nice if you wish to contact the other vessel. And it does help to see over the horizon.

Staring at a screen is like using video game.

When I am teaching advanced level courses I will turn off the chartplotter if folks get fixated on it. The radar and other electronics stay on. Paper charts are available.

Learn to use the Mark 1 eyeball.


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## svzephyr44 (Jun 26, 2000)

goboatingnow said:


> The yacht was NOT the stand on vessel, if you are going to make a point at least understand the rules that pertain in the waters where it occurred. sheesh


Now in Bold - the second time I have posted this information: *You obviously didn't get that the stand on vessel comment was a joke.* Sorry...


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

jackdale said:


> Use a hand bearing compass during good visibility.
> 
> Use radar and an EBL or MARPA (or ARPA) in restricted visbility.
> 
> ...


I recently picked up a pair of binoculars with a built in compass. They are great for keeping track of bearings, especially at night. The ability of good lenses to gather light can increase the ability to pick up even dim buoy lights as well. Looking at any kind of screen at night is almost painful.

No one answered about line of sight of the AIS gear. How do they see over the horizon? Sorry I'm not versed in this technology yet.


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## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

I've never sailed there..and have no personal knowledge, but research for a class I taught told me that the 5 busiest commercial seaports in the world are in China, Singapore and South Korea. When I look at the shipping around Hong Kong, Singapore etc on Marine Traffic it's lights up like a Christmas tree. 

New York harbor where I've spent a fair amt of time..is somewhere like 25th on the list.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

smurphny said:


> I recently picked up a pair of binoculars with a built in compass. They are great for keeping track of bearings, especially at night. The ability of good lenses to gather light can increase the ability to pick up even dim buoy lights as well. Looking at any kind of screen at night is almost painful.
> 
> No one answered about line of sight of the AIS gear. How do they see over the horizon? Sorry I'm not versed in this technology yet.


AIS sends and receives VHF signals. The height of the antenna allows you to see over the horizon.


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## svzephyr44 (Jun 26, 2000)

smurphny said:


> No one answered about line of sight of the AIS gear. How do they see over the horizon? Sorry I'm not versed in this technology yet.


They use two high marine VHF channels 87B & 88B. They have approximately the same range as VHF channel 16 which is basicly line of sight (remember that the line of sight from 100 feet in the air to 100 feet in the air is pretty far.) Also they have an absolute range estimated to be about 200 NM before the signal strength is below useful levels.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

capta said:


> I'm sorry, but can you not get the exact same "very useful predictive information" just by watching the vessel for a few minutes?


Well, in the example that I mentioned, if I watched the vessel for a few minutes, I would have run into the shore. For me, heaving to is often not an option for buying time due to fast river currents.

If a vessel is coming straight toward me from 1 nm away and doing 12 knots, it will be on top of me in 5 minutes. Note that without AIS or radar these are both guesses. If I guess wrong it's less than 1 nm and he's doing more than 12 kts and I watch it for a few minutes, then I may only have SECONDS TO REACT. (see other posts on this subject)

One reason that we're talking past one another is that we are discussing very different sailing ranges. Some of you are talking open ocean where you've got long sight lines and many options of how to get out of the way. As clearly shown on my example, I sail in a busy river, where most of the boats are coming straight toward me, so it's very difficult to gauge how fast they are going. Many times they are anchored and not a threat at all. It's nice to have AIS to confirm that that vessel barely visible 3 nm up river is anchored and not coming toward me. It's even better to get an early warning when he pulls his anchor up and starts coming toward me.



christian.hess said:


> may I add(to what capta is saying) without being too much of a ludite that you can do this by keeping a watch at all times?


Not if that vessel is hidden around a bend in the river. And when did I suggest that AIS should replace keeping a watch? AIS is just another gauge, and with proper vector display you get full information on multiple vessels by glancing at it for a split second - much faster than having to observe the vessels for a few minutes.



christian.hess said:


> how is looking at the computer any more helpful than seing what the boats are doing in "real time"


It supplements visual observation by giving range, course, speed (all visible in a split second glance by using a vector), and if you want it, also vessel name, rate of turn, MMSI number, vessel size, and destination. None of this replaces visual contact (unless conditions prevent visual contact), but it is a great supplement, and give you the information much faster - just a quick glance.



christian.hess said:


> ...how helpful is ais when you have a million wood shrimpers and pangas, and fishermen that dont even carry running lights much less a vhf or antenna, or coms?...


That does not apply to me and I suspect you're savvy enough to realize its impact on your own situation. If you don't need or want AIS, that's fine. But the topic here started out bashing AIS users as nuisance callers on the VHF, so I thought I'd point out some of the positives with a specific example.



jackdale said:


> ...Staring at a screen is like using video game.
> 
> When I am teaching advanced level courses I will turn off the chartplotter if folks get fixated on it...


Once you've gotten used to it, there is no fixating. Like any new device, it can be a distraction at first, but once you get past that it's just one of dozens of things (forward, back, windex, compass, etc.) that your eyes glance at continuously.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

take5 I appreciate what you are saying...we are in essence saying many of the same things however for some reason I seem to be the opposing force now for ais when nothing is further from the truth

what Im saying is we have the tendency to fixate on technology whenever its new and the biggest coolest thing on the block

I specifically said that AIS is very useful and a great aid to navigation IN THOSE AREAS WHERE THEY ARE PREDOMINANTLY USED

where they are not(which is a huge chunk of the world and beleive it or not even in those places where they are used a lot) there are still alot of vessesl who do not use them

so you still have to use other aids to navigation

having said that I wouldnt mind that VHF with ais screen if I ever replace my current vhf...


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

christian.hess said:


> ...I specifically said that AIS is very useful and a great aid to navigation IN THOSE AREAS WHERE THEY ARE PREDOMINANTLY USED
> 
> where they are not(which is a huge chunk of the world and beleive it or not even in those places where they are used a lot) there are still alot of vessesl who do not use them
> 
> ...


Duly noted. I have only sailed a tiny piece of the globe, so my experience is very limited.

Which VHF are you considering? I ended up with AIS receiver as part of my VHF. The SH GX2150 is a pretty rudimentary display, and really needs to be supplemented by connecting to a chartplotter or (in my case) tablet computer. Are there newer models with more usable displays?


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

mike o reilly over on the 500 thread put up a link to the one he bought...but it was around $300 or so

cant remember the brand but it had a simple black and white backlit screen that shared with the vhf stuff


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## goboatingnow (Oct 10, 2008)

Tempest said:


> I've never sailed there..and have no personal knowledge, but research for a class I taught told me that the 5 busiest commercial seaports in the world are in China, Singapore and South Korea. When I look at the shipping around Hong Kong, Singapore etc on Marine Traffic it's lights up like a Christmas tree.
> 
> New York harbor where I've spent a fair amt of time..is somewhere like 25th on the list.


The Dover straits are acknowledged as the average busiest high sea area in the world. ( http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strait_of_Dover) with over 400 commercial ship movements a day.

Sea ports are far less of a collision issue , ships are moving slower , crews are on full alert , there is VTS and port control , specialist buoyage . Dedicate fairways , etc etc.

Dave


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

"It would take an almost laughable amount of hubris to contact a tanker and ask him to alter course in the open sea."
Can we call him a ship disturber ? the AIS horizon is farther than the mark 1 eyeball and it can also see around corners. This makes it a useful aid to navigation .Not every body is sending and if you are, maybe no one cares. Common sense still trumps Open ocean at night would be a blessing. Don't know how we did it before radar and plotters . Nerves of steel dragging a gill net in the fog.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

smurphny said:


> No one answered about line of sight of the AIS gear. How do they see over the horizon? Sorry I'm not versed in this technology yet.


This isn't technology. It's geometry. Distance to the horizon (d) is d = 1.2246 * SQRT (h) where d is in miles and h is height of eye in feet. If you are interested in the underlying trigonometry Google will lead you to a number of approaches.

Example: If you have an AIS antenna on a radar pole aft with the middle of the antenna 12 ft above the water the distance to the horizon is 1.2246*SQRT(12) = 4.24 nm. If the transmitting vessel is a large ship his antenna is likely to be 85 to 100 feet above the water. His visual horizon is 1.2246*SQRT(90) = 11.62 nm. The straight-line distance between the middle of your AIS antenna and the ship's antenna is 4.24+11.62 = 15.86 nm. VHF although nominally line of sight does experience both atmospheric bending and knife-edge refraction. Practically speaking this amounts to about 10%. That means a reliable distance of 17-1/2 nm. VHF also experiences tropospheric ducting that can lead to ranges of hundreds of miles but that is not something to depend on.

If you put your AIS antenna at the masthead (not a good idea due to interaction with the main VHF antenna) or use a splitter (not a good idea due to attenuation and failure modes) the distance for initial reception will be about 23-1/2 nm, not nearly enough improvement to justify the gross degradation. An upper spreader would be fine if you want the extra height.



jackdale said:


> AIS is nice if you wish to contact the other vessel. And it does help to see over the horizon.
> 
> Staring at a screen is like using video game.


I call chartplotters "video game" also. It's a tool and a useful one but you have to keep your head outside the boat.

Two of the benefits of AIS that I don't think has come up in this thread (bad on me - I usually try to make this point) are that 1. all the big guys have it and they are all used to be called by name and 2. crew sizes on commercial shipping continue to decline and bridge crews have lots to do. The chances of describing a ship and location on your VHF and getting a response are pretty small - smaller than other.



TakeFive said:


> Not if that vessel is hidden around a bend in the river.


An excellent point, and relates to another mechanism by which "line of sight" doesn't adequately describe the range of a VHF system like AIS. In addition to knife edge refraction there is reflection, particularly from modern office buildings with metalized windows. It's a real benefit. Works for voice also although you'll get some funky multipath artifacts sometimes (like airplanes overhead do to over-the-air television).


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## svzephyr44 (Jun 26, 2000)

SVAuspicious said:


> Two of the benefits of AIS that I don't think has come up in this thread (bad on me - I usually try to make this point) are that 1. all the big guys have it and they are all used to be called by name and 2. crew sizes on commercial shipping continue to decline and bridge crews have lots to do. The chances of describing a ship and location on your VHF and getting a response are pretty small - smaller than other.


I didn't really think about this until Dave brought up point "2." When I was sailing East about 30 miles off the south cost of Portugal I was run down by an MSC freighter obviously making a bee line to a distant harbor. I was under sail in 25 knot winds and the CPA was about 3/4 mile. Keeping an eye on things I noticed the CPA was slowly decreasing. I assumed that the freighter had done a small turn to take my stern but when the CPA got down to 1/4 mile and stopped changing I called the freighter on the radio. No response. Tried about three times. No response. *With 20-20 hindsight (and the point of my post) was that the fact they were not answering the radio should have been a clue that no one in the bridge was paying attention (or no one was in the bridge.)* At this point the tanker was finally visible and I tacked away from his course. I got on the radio and said "shipname, shipname, you are on a collision course with me, please alter course to starboard immediately. I repeated this transmission about 5 times without any noticeable change in the tanker's heading. I finally got a response "where are you, who are you?" as the bow of the freighter passed about 200 yards behind my stern. To my knowledge they never did alter course. 

To Dave's point "1" the current official rule is:_ Regulation 19 of SOLAS Chapter V - Carriage requirements for shipborne navigational systems and equipment - sets out navigational equipment to be carried on board ships, according to ship type. In 2000, IMO adopted a new requirement (as part of a revised new chapter V) for all ships to carry automatic identification systems (AISs) capable of providing information about the ship to other ships and to coastal authorities automatically.

The regulation requires AIS to be fitted aboard all ships of 300 gross tonnage and upwards engaged on international voyages, cargo ships of 500 gross tonnage and upwards not engaged on international voyages and all passenger ships irrespective of size. The requirement became effective for all ships by 31 December 2004._

When operating in coastal waters that leaves out a lot of vessels. In particular fishing boats seem to prefer not to carry AIS.

Fair winds and following seas


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## splastiko (Mar 27, 2012)

My father is a ship pilot. Here is a picture from the bridge of a tanker he was bringing in not too long ago. We have lots of center console fishing boats, pleasure boats, and sailboats in the channel all the time. I bet you can guess who gets out of the way of who...


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

splastiko said:


> We have lots of center console fishing boats, pleasure boats, and sailboats in the channel all the time.


Yes! I can see them!!!!!!! Lots of them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

good pic, though.


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## splastiko (Mar 27, 2012)

Oh they are there .. its amazing the folks on jetski's and people who pull their kids on tubes and other stuff right in front of the ships coming down the channel assuming the ship can alter course or stop on a dime when they flip the ski or sling the kid off the tube. 

Now, in our area, sailboats and bigger powerboats usually have very good communication with the ships, as well as all the smaller pushboats/barges on 13. The pilots are very good, as are the tug captains about giving details on where they are going and the speed the are making. No one wants a collision..especially the ship pilots.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Now seems like a good time to recommend the following book:
How to Avoid Huge Ships: John W. Trimmer: 9780870334337: Amazon.com: [email protected]@[email protected]@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/[email protected]@[email protected]@714PH4X5FRL

The book is definitely written with a bit of a chip on the author's shoulder and I imagine it was cathartic for him to write it. Also by way of a spoiler, the whole book is really a way of saying "please give me as wide a berth as possible".

He does explain, with good diagrams, how close approach and crossing situations may be much more complicated than it first appears. There's a lot about how these ships maneuver (or can't maneuver) and I learned that "it's what you didn't know you didn't know" that is the issue here. I now have a little more respect for their restrictions in maneuvering and continue to make sure to give them as wide a berth as possible. Even if I am the stand-on vessel I like to move out of the way with clear intentions as a courtesy.

MedSailor


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## nolatom (Jun 29, 2005)

splastiko said:


> My father is a ship pilot. Here is a picture from the bridge of a tanker he was bringing in not too long ago. We have lots of center console fishing boats, pleasure boats, and sailboats in the channel all the time. I bet you can guess who gets out of the way of who...


And dredges--tight fit ;-)


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

I skipped most of the thread once I got the feeling that some seem to believe that having AIS means they should argue with a tanker/freighter :laugher

"yo *****, get outa the way, get outa the way"


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

svzephyr44 said:


> When operating in coastal waters that leaves out a lot of vessels. In particular fishing boats seem to prefer not to carry AIS.


I agree. However there are a lot of ships and boats not required to carry AIS that have them fitted. I've installed AIS on tugs not required for the same reasons I noted above -- the tugs don't want to be run down by big traffic any more than we do, and want the names of the ships so they'll answer.



MarkofSeaLife said:


> Yes! I can see them!!!!!!! Lots of them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Which goes to my earlier point about visibility from the bridge.



splastiko said:


> No one wants a collision..especially the ship pilots.


Darn tootin'


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

svzephyr44 said:


> I didn't really think about this until Dave brought up point "2." When I was sailing East about 30 miles off the south cost of Portugal I was run down by an MSC freighter obviously making a bee line to a distant harbor. I was under sail in 25 knot winds and the CPA was about 3/4 mile. Keeping an eye on things I noticed the CPA was slowly decreasing. I assumed that the freighter had done a small turn to take my stern but when the CPA got down to 1/4 mile and stopped changing I called the freighter on the radio. No response. Tried about three times. No response. *With 20-20 hindsight (and the point of my post) was that the fact they were not answering the radio should have been a clue that no one in the bridge was paying attention (or no one was in the bridge.)* At this point the tanker was finally visible and I tacked away from his course. I got on the radio and said "shipname, shipname, you are on a collision course with me, please alter course to starboard immediately. I repeated this transmission about 5 times without any noticeable change in the tanker's heading. I finally got a response "where are you, who are you?" as the bow of the freighter passed about 200 yards behind my stern. To my knowledge they never did alter course.
> 
> To Dave's point "1" the current official rule is:_ Regulation 19 of SOLAS Chapter V - Carriage requirements for shipborne navigational systems and equipment - sets out navigational equipment to be carried on board ships, according to ship type. In 2000, IMO adopted a new requirement (as part of a revised new chapter V) for all ships to carry automatic identification systems (AISs) capable of providing information about the ship to other ships and to coastal authorities automatically.
> 
> ...


Well, that's good information. If these big guys are regularly on autopilot with no watch, it really highlights the importance of spotting them early and altering course regardless of who may have right of way. The only situation that is scary is when they are coming up from behind but if they are on auto, they should be traveling in a predictable straight line. It's what I'll be doing if being overtaken by one again.


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## hannah2 (Nov 15, 2012)

What i found interesting on our passage down the european coast and near the shipping lanes is how often ships captains go at it with each other over the VHF. A lot of yelling and screaming about who will give way. Lots of macho stuff but one always gives way eventually. 

For us though when we have had to contact a ship there has been nothing but courtesy and politeness from the skipper of the ship. Always more than willing to move a couple of degrees to avoid collision. I think they know how hard it is to change course when seas are big, 30 knots of wind and you are out on a pole to pole run.


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## Dave_E (Aug 7, 2013)

This entire thread reminds me of the punks in town who will step right out in front of you (while your driving a car or truck) with their hoodies on looking down... and do so with no reservation. The couple times I've honked or yelled at them, I get the "you have to stop for me and a finger". That's all well and good (and probably per the law), but IF I don't and your injured or dead.... what good were all the rules?

In MY mind, as the driver of a 5.5 ton, 31' sailboat... I have NO business even remotely considering "holding my course" when a ship is in semi close proximitiy (if a close call or collision is imminent).

Dave


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Dave_E said:


> reminds me of the punks in town who will step right out in front of you (while your driving a car or truck) with their hoodies on looking down... and do so with no reservation. The couple times I've honked or yelled at them, I get the "you have to stop for me and a finger".
> 
> Dave


I had a V8 in a car without much muffler. As soon as they do that I would just accelerate towards them 

Funny how quick they could move


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> I would love to see something official that clarifies "always in effect, but doesn't make much difference"


The rules don't come into effect unless their is risk of collision.

If I am sailing in the Long island sound and you are sailing off the coast of Australia the rules mean nothing.

If I see a big ship a couple miles off and see that their is no risk of collision but that their might be in 10 minutes it is both prudent and courteous for me to make an early and significant course change so the ship can see that I am not now nor will in the future be a threat.

You are under no obligation to hold course unless their is risk of collision. 99.99 percent of times you change your course long before their is a risk.

I was going about 3 knots heading north getting near the tappenz bridge in the east river.

A container ship was behind me doing about 6 knots. 
I did a 90 port to the far side of the channel, then two more 90's to port to come in behind him.
There was no way I was going to let him pass me under the bridge and blow me onto the bridge supports.

We get it into our heads that we are going in a specific direction. It doesn't usually matter. If a 180 degree turn for 5 minutes will change the dynamics so it is completely safe that is what I'm going to do, even if it looks a little stupid, I don't care.

If they want to hit me they have to catch me first.


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

davidpm said:


> We get it into our heads that we are going in a specific direction. It doesn't usually matter. If a 180 degree turn for 5 minutes will change the dynamics so it is completely safe that is what I'm going to do, even if it looks a little stupid, I don't care.
> 
> If they want to hit me they have to catch me first.


IMHO, far too many sailors don't know how to *slow down* to advantage. I see this on the race-course all the time: a group of slower boats will be rounding a mark together and some go-fast moron charges right up the backside of one of them thinking that somehow he has a right to do that 'because he's faster'. If he had any brains he'd slow down, take an opening and cross out ahead of them instead.

There's nothing stupid about getting out of the way of a big ship. Whether it's a shipping channel or a road, it's safe practice to give way to anything bigger than you. No point being 'dead right'.


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