# The $1 Dollar Boat



## North Channel Sailor (Jan 15, 2017)

Hi Guys, And so it begins. Here is a link to show the project boat I have taken on. Subscribe to follow along for all the "fun". Let me know what you think of her. Am I nuts? Yes I know, I expect zero return on my investment but I have always had my eye on these boats. For $1 dollar how could I say no? She spoke to me as soon as I saw her. Cheers.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Best of luck to you! I have done crazier things so my opinion is irrelevant, but it is a great design and well worth of restoration.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

Good luck! Maybe you could call it the "Loonie".


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## North Channel Sailor (Jan 15, 2017)

aeventyr60 said:


> Good luck! Maybe you could call it the "Loonie".


Good one! Lol. I named her after another bird though, "Wiskejak" native spelling for Whiskey Jack or the Gray Jay. I'll need some to drink as well.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

North Channel Sailor said:


> Good one! Lol. I named her after another bird though, "Wiskejak" native spelling for Whiskey Jack or the Gray Jay. I'll need some to drink as well.


Best you invest in a case of the ol Grey Goose while you still have a few loonies left.:wink


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## North Channel Sailor (Jan 15, 2017)

aeventyr60 said:


> Best you invest in a case of the ol Grey Goose while you still have a few loonies left.:wink


That would do the trick as well. :hammer


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

North Channel Sailor said:


> I expect zero return on my investment but I have always had my eye on these boats. For $1 dollar how could I say no? She spoke to me as soon as I saw her. Cheers.


it's not the zero ROI that should scare you ,,,,, it's the $100,000 dollars and five years you are never going to get back.

ETTLE WEEL - every single AC and DC wire and component on the vessel requires replacement and noe of the electricals meet any known standard, the propane system is dangerous and will have to be replaced in it's enirety, the decks, trunk and cockpit coring are done, you can't tell how good the chainplates are unless you remove them, the hull deck joint is in very poor condition and all the cap rails are severely degraded. The atomic4
installation is completely unsafe (fuel system, ventilation, ignition protection).

RUN !

PS. That 100k is only if you do absolutely everything yourself.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

North Channel Sailor said:


> She spoke to me as soon as I saw her.


Most of my relationships start that way.
Actually there should be a joke: 'Mark walks into a bar and as soon as he saw her she said....'

:|


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## North Channel Sailor (Jan 15, 2017)

boatpoker said:


> it's not the zero ROI that should scare you ,,,,, it's the $100,000 dollars and five years you are never going to get back.
> 
> ETTLE WEEL
> 
> Sounds like you have a connection with her past?


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Big job, you're going to need an interim boat while you work on her.

Go down to work on boat for a few hours.

Work on boat for half an hour, go sailing for 2 and a half.

All is good.


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## North Channel Sailor (Jan 15, 2017)

She is going to splash shortly believe or not. She does have new sails and an ok looking rig. I will be bending on sails and pointing the bow north. If she floats, she goes. I think she will, the hull looks like it was built like a tank.


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

Ok so the follow up to splash has to be how long will it float? Then you must commit to a circumnavigation with it as is! I have the title for the trip "$1 around the world."

IF we move this thread to SA, we can take bets on:
How long it floats
How long before the Coasties are called.
Total miles sailed
We'll get sponsors and throw you a Delorme so we can track progress in real time.

Wait, we did this already.. Sorry Remus beat you do this, on a smaller boat, and less equipped. He outsailed (out bobbed) everyone's estimates.

Honestly, looks like a cool boat, but you are gonna lose your shirt in man hours and money to make her right. I do that every time I buy a boat... so welcome to the club!


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## North Channel Sailor (Jan 15, 2017)

Oh pleeeease. It's a week long trip for me with anchorages along the way. Mostly within sight of the shore. Watertight or close to it, good weather/wind (it is a sailboat) untie the lines, stick sails up, go. 

After that, throw hundred dollar bills away on a regular basis.


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## ColoGuy (Jan 7, 2010)

I have fixed up a lot of bargain buys in cars, boats, atv's, and snowmobiles. The great thing about fixing up cars when I was in high school is now I can fix up a lot of other stuff.

No we do not get our money back. It is the challenge, the exercise, the rewards of doing it yourself. Right?

Lots of sailboats for cheap where the owner gave up on the restoration. Many have been successful however. With a $1 initial investment, it is easy to get pumped about taking it on.

My own experience is that items that have received better care may prove to be better investments.

But then.....I am literally as green as grass with sailboats. Seriously. 

Keep us posted if the meanies don't discourage you too much. We are somewhat well stocked with them.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

ColoGuy said:


> I have fixed up a lot of bargain buys in cars, boats, atv's, and snowmobiles.


Hang on. You just bought your first boat. A fixer upper....

And you haven't tried sailing anything yet.


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## ColoGuy (Jan 7, 2010)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Hang on. You just bought your first boat. A fixer upper....
> 
> And you haven't tried sailing anything yet.


It is you who needs to hang on. I used my sailfish as a kid and sailboard as an adult. I also restored Dad's old boat not once, but twice. Wooden boats......... I also manned the wheel of a schooner that was well over 100' for some time.

Also.....when this boat arrives, it will be the third boat on my property. Still....."green as grass" is more, or less, fair.


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## North Channel Sailor (Jan 15, 2017)

My son gets it's honestly too I guess. He bought a truck for cheap and we worked on it together. He is only 15 and can't wait to get his drivers license when he turns 16. We just got it certified for the road. He saved every penny for it from his first part time job. He was happy as a clam driving me around on the back roads for the first time yesterday. We will be doing some camp outs, fishing and sharing the memories forever. Point is it's better to live life than to just plan all the time. Is it the best truck in the world, hardly. You wouldn't have known from the smile on his face.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

ColoGuy said:


> It is you who needs to hang on. I used my sailfish as a kid and sailboard as an adult. I also restored Dad's old boat not once, but twice. Wooden boats......... I also manned the wheel of a schooner that was well over 100' for some time.
> 
> Also.....when this boat arrives, it will be the third boat on my property. Still....."green as grass" is more, or less, fair.


Oh, so you are changing the narrative so you can appear more relevant to giving advice?

R I g h t

:grin


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## amwbox (Aug 22, 2015)

North Channel Sailor said:


> Oh pleeeease. It's a week long trip for me with anchorages along the way. Mostly within sight of the shore. Watertight or close to it, good weather/wind (it is a sailboat) untie the lines, stick sails up, go.
> 
> After that, throw hundred dollar bills away on a regular basis.


Subbed.

Naysayers will naysay, but it truly is a big project. Sailing it in that state does make me nervous, though. Even though it's a keel stepped design, you're still going to be putting huge forces into the cabin top, which is entirely rotten...and I'd visually verify the integrity of all the chainplates/mountings and every inch of the rig.

Good luck, will follow with interest. Great boat, in her glory days.


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## ColoGuy (Jan 7, 2010)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Oh, so you are changing the narrative so you can appear more relevant to giving advice?
> 
> R I g h t
> 
> :grin


You are just a purebred *****. The first name on my ignore list as memory serves.

Now if you want to follow legal guidelines, how many thousands of dollars are you willing to bet that I am 100% right and you are 100% wrong?

Do us a big favor and put me on your ignore list. That will lower board pollution and I won't have to correct your bs.

Also....get a life?


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

ColoGuy said:


> You are just a purebred *****. The first name on my ignore list as memory serves.
> 
> Now if you want to follow legal guidelines, how many thousands of dollars are you willing to bet that I am 100% right and you are 100% wrong?
> 
> ...


So you choose to ignore people like Mark and I who have been there and been doing that for decades in favour of people with no experience and little knowledge but a more pleasant demeanor ?

Suggest you start your boating education with this article on my website. Marine Survey 101

I've done the responsible thing and told NortChannel Sailor about the unsafe condition of this vessel and he chooses to sail it anyway. We are each the masters of our own disasters.


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## amwbox (Aug 22, 2015)

It's not hard to call out a bullshitter. They tend to blow up spectacularly in response.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

amwbox said:


> It's not hard to call out a bullshitter. They tend to blow up spectacularly in response.


One may lead a horse to water but you can't make him think.


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## North Channel Sailor (Jan 15, 2017)

Umm... back to your regularly scheduled program. 

So you did a survey of this boat? I know the condition issues. Just curious?


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## Morild (Mar 31, 2013)

It's funny.
Having been around for a while, one can guess the replies to this kind of post.
I don't know what to think.
Rationally 1 dollar is waaaay too much for this boat, OTH I have been there myself, we just can't help ourselves can we?

Well carry on


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

North Channel Sailor said:


> She is going to splash shortly believe or not.


As the great one said "if anything's going to happen, its going to happen out there.".

I guess different folks have have different expectations of boats. It sounds like you're willing to tackle a few obstacles to fix up this boat. I don't see anything wrong with that.


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## North Channel Sailor (Jan 15, 2017)

In for a penny, in for a pound. But it's way more fun out there than tied to a dock. You would never know looking around at all the boats that never leave their slips.


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## North Channel Sailor (Jan 15, 2017)

[/ATTACH]

My last "fixer upper" why did you buy that pos boat served my family and I well for 10 years. Was a joy to own and fix up.


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## ColoGuy (Jan 7, 2010)

Arcb said:


> As the great one said "if anything's going to happen, its going to happen out there.".
> 
> I guess different folks have have different expectations of boats. It sounds like you're willing to tackle a few obstacles to fix up this boat. I don't see anything wrong with that.


A few of my funnest boating experiences have been the tiny sailfish that would almost capsize when hit with almost any decent sized wake.

The other was getting my dad's old wooden boat in the water and trying out my overhauls. Still "leaked a bit" and was not able to coax neither dad nor brother into further ventures. I thought the leak added to the adventure. I mean....a bucket was slightly faster than the leak. I blame old wooden boats...

One does not have to have a nice, expensive boat to have a blast. Indeed, cheap old boats can enhance the sense of adventure. But then, I have cheated certain death more than once.


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## ColoGuy (Jan 7, 2010)

Sorry to sidetrack things but I will address some posts here. I don't care if you are Jacques-Yves Cousteau, the ignore list will be freely exercised if your britches are too big for decent manners. There are plenty of other members with manners.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

North Channel Sailor said:


> My last "fixer upper" why did you buy that pos boat served my family and I well for 10 years. Was a joy to own and fix up.


Maybe with the Hughes you should have spent $700 on a surveyor so that he could tell you you have a 40+ year old boat in less than perfect condition. It would have only increased your purchase price by 70 000%


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## ColoGuy (Jan 7, 2010)

North Channel Sailor said:


> [/ATTACH]
> 
> My last "fixer upper" why did you buy that pos boat served my family and I well for 10 years. Was a joy to own and fix up.


Say....I could loan you an S2 in need of TLC. :angel


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

A $1 boat?

I bet you'll have more than double that into it by the time you're done.


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## amwbox (Aug 22, 2015)

ColoGuy said:


> Sorry to sidetrack things but I will address some posts here. I don't care if you are Jacques-Yves Cousteau, the ignore list will be freely exercised if your britches are too big for decent manners. There are plenty of other members with manners.


Oh, stop crying and regale us with one of your stories about "cheating certain death".


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## North Channel Sailor (Jan 15, 2017)

Arcb said:


> Maybe with the Hughes you should have spent $700 on a surveyor so that he could tell you you have a 40+ year old boat in less than perfect condition. It would have only increased your purchase price by 70 000%


Well I could also put all my stock into what the last surveyer said. The po got a glowing survey not very long ago.


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## amwbox (Aug 22, 2015)

Have you got a place to work on it where they won't be requiring survey/insurance? I couldn't even leave my old boat in the boatyard without insurance, and I never found a place that would insure without a survey.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

If for whatever reason your insurance company doesn't accept the PO's survey, here the minimum standards an insurance surveyor should be inspecting to. I sincerely doubt it will cost $100k to bring your boat up to these standards.

https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/marinesafety/tp-tp1332-menu-521.htm


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## North Channel Sailor (Jan 15, 2017)

For this and the last project boat I needed $2 m liability for anywhere I go. All that has been required is current photos. I have kept the replacement values low but reasonable. $350 and now $460 premiums.


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## ColoGuy (Jan 7, 2010)

amwbox said:


> Oh, stop crying and regale us with one of your stories about "cheating certain death".


You and a few other highly experienced internet sailors would either: 
1) Piss in your panties.
2) Claim it wasn't true.

I'll pass. I have a few things to do.

This is a great thread. Let it live sans tacking.

I'm a bit surprised that you black souls have not managed to dampen the spirits of North Channel Sailor. After all, you folks bring "experience on a professional level".


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Arcb said:


> If for whatever reason your insurance company doesn't accept the PO's survey, here the minimum standards an insurance surveyor should be inspecting to. I sincerely doubt it will cost $100k to bring your boat up to these standards.
> 
> https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/marinesafety/tp-tp1332-menu-521.htm


This is incorrect. Insurance companies base their premiums on claims statistics. I deal with all of them and doubt more than a handful even know TP1332 exists.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

ColoGuy said:


> You and a few other highly experienced internet sailors would either:
> 1) Piss in your panties.
> 2) Claim it wasn't true.
> 
> ...


You might consider that one of those internet sailors has actually examined the vessel in question. Have you ?

It's always struck me as funny that those with no education, training and little or no experience love to slam those who have acquired same at great expense over several decades.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

North Channel Sailor said:


> Well I could also put all my stock into what the last surveyer said. The po got a glowing survey not very long ago.


Can you honestly look at that video and put any credence in that "glowing" survey report ?


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

boatpoker said:


> This is incorrect. Insurance companies base their premiums on claims statistics. I deal with all of them and doubt more than a handful even know TP1332 exists.


What standard is your $100k repair bill based on then?


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Arcb said:


> What standard is your $100k repair bill based on then?


The re-coring of everything above the rub rail, ABYC standards for AC & DC electrical, ABYC propane Standard, ABYC Fuel system Standard, Having done three of these total rebuilds myself (one of which is detailed on my website) 30 years experience, current ABYC Certified Corrosion Analyst, three transport Canada Masters tickets, SAMS Accreditation. One time IAMI Certified Marine Investigator One time ABYC Standards Certified and somewhere over 4000 surveys. Transport Canada Appointed Tonnage Measurer. somehwere around 200 deliveries between Antigua and Duluth Minnesota and over 24,000 hrs in my log book. There's some other stuff on the Qualifications page on my website.
and ...... I am familiar with the vessel in question.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I wasn't really asking about your credentials. I was asking about your baseline. 

Although being familiar with the vessel counts for something.


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## North Channel Sailor (Jan 15, 2017)

boatpoker said:


> Can you honestly look at that video and put any credence in that "glowing" survey report ?


The good survey is just as irrelevant to me as your estimate. Sorry, no offence. Obviously the boat needs attention. Your assessment is probably closer to the fact than the survey I have in my hands right now. I just found it ironic that an equally qualified surveyor found the vessel in good condition and another does not. I know what the issues are. I have a plan and a budget. I also plan to enjoy the process and the sailing. Stay tuned folks.....


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## troy2000 (Apr 7, 2013)

Looks like a fun project, NCS. As long as you keep it a fun project, instead of desperately wrapping your life and your household budget around it, you're good to go. Working on an old boat definitely beats sitting around watching 'reality' TV... especially if you can rope the kid into giving you a hand.

Some of the best hours of my life were spent with my son, working on projects my wife considered a waste of time and money. I love her dearly, but she can be almost soul-killing 'practical' at times.


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## North Channel Sailor (Jan 15, 2017)

troy2000 said:


> Looks like a fun project, NCS. As long as you keep it a fun project, instead of desperately wrapping your life and your household budget around it, you're good to go. Working on an old boat definitely beats sitting around watching 'reality' TV... especially if you can rope the kid into giving you a hand.
> 
> Some of the best hours of my life were spent with my son, working on projects my wife considered a waste of time and money. I love her dearly, but she can be almost soul-killing 'practical' at times.


Exactly, what else would I do with my spare time? I am just a regular guy with three kids, wife and mortgage still trying to make ends meet. I have no dilussions, that is the reality. Sometimes you just need to go out on a limb a little bit and do the things that bring you enjoyment. It's worth the risk. What's life without a little adventure.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

North Channel Sailor said:


> The good survey is just as irrelevant to me as your estimate. Sorry, no offence. Obviously the boat needs attention. Your assessment is probably closer to the fact than the survey I have in my hands right now. I just found it ironic that an equally qualified surveyor found the vessel in good condition and another does not. I know what the issues are. I have a plan and a budget. I also plan to enjoy the process and the sailing. Stay tuned folks.....


I know every surveyor in Ontario (all 250) I love to know which one did that report.
or if you prefer not to name him could you please list his/her qualifications or at the very least the source of their Certification or Accreditation as a surveyor.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Arcb said:


> I wasn't really asking about your credentials. I was asking about your baseline.
> 
> Although being familiar with the vessel counts for something.


My point in listing that information was to show that my estimate was based on a highly educated guess based on standards and experience not just the usual internet speculation.


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## SV Siren (Mar 8, 2013)

Congrats on the boat North, she is a beautiful design that's for certain. I know that you have taken a little guff from some nay-sayers, but I would at least listen to what they have to say, there are some conservative, and good points raised by them to consider. Watching your video, the decks to appear to be in rather "rough' shape. I would suggest at least taking care of them, sooner rather than later. Safety items should be at the top of your list of things to address before splashing. I am going to assume that you didn't need me to tell you that, since this isn't your first rodeo.

I just bought a project too, and have had friends tell me to just splash it, and fix and update as you go...my first trip out dissuaded me from that. I am currently working on my project in the backyard, and I will learn everything about this new to me boat by doing everything, myself. I have seen people out in boats that have defied logic, they are out there, just enjoying themselves in things that just shouldn't float, but do it day in and day out. Each person has their own level and definition of great shape, and my friends boats are a great example of that, but in the end, they all have boats.

Do what's best for you, life isn't about what the other guy thinks so much as it is about you living yours. We all go through life learning, and picking up wisdom from others, what is important is that we skim useful information and apply it to our lives as we move forward. There is no perfect sailor, or perfect boat, we all are working at being better at what we do. If anyone thinks they know it all, they are only kidding themselves. The water never stops teaching...nor does it suffer the foolhearty at times.

Keep posting videos, I am looking forward to them. Best wishes and fair winds.


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## willyd (Feb 22, 2008)

amwbox said:


> Have you got a place to work on it where they won't be requiring survey/insurance? I couldn't even leave my old boat in the boatyard without insurance, and I never found a place that would insure without a survey.


I've never been asked for a survey for the boats I've had insured - perhaps the survey is asked for if you take out a loan? Mine have always been paid for in cash.

And now, as a bonus feature for the $1 boat thread, a free grammar alert - twice in this thread people have written "X and I" when it should have been "X and me" - only use "and I" when you are the subject; every other time it'll be "and me", as in "between you and me", "for Mary and me" or "except him and me". You're welcome.


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## oldlaxer1 (Mar 27, 2008)

willyd said:


> I've never been asked for a survey for the boats I've had insured - perhaps the survey is asked for if you take out a loan? Mine have always been paid for in cash.
> 
> And now, as a bonus feature for the $1 boat thread, a free grammar alert - twice in this thread people have written "X and I" when it should have been "X and me" - only use "and I" when you are the subject; every other time it'll be "and me", as in "between you and me", "for Mary and me" or "except him and me". You're welcome.


Well their you go with you're grammar policing. Your welcome.:grin


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## North Channel Sailor (Jan 15, 2017)

That's been my experience as well. I managed to scrape together the funds to pay cash again. ;-)

BOATPOKER When did you do your survey? This survey has all the nice rubber stamps you would expect. Like I said, it's irrelevant since the issues with the boat are stareing me in the face. If I recall, the survey stated there was elevated moisture readings in the deck just like almost all surveys I have seen. Most surveys tend to just speak to cosmetics, the nitty gritty stuff tends to get glossed over. Especially when the owner has paid cash for the boat. Ie the chain plates. No issues mentioned there either. I did the same as the surveyor. Visually inspected them as best as I could. Am I going to dig them out of there to test them or fabricate new ones. Nope. If I was planning to set sail around the world, yep. 

Bottom line is, I am still in the black. I have; a truck LOAD of new and nearly new sails, a new HD folding cradle, a beautiful hard dinghy and outboard, newly upholstered cushions, a brand new vhf with ais dsc, a decent "looking" yard maintained Atomic 4( that's all a surveyor would be able to tell me as well) a new in the box ap, a new in the box Muir windlass, BBQ, composite propane tanks with mounts etc etc. Oh and the prettiest looking boat I could ever hope for that was originally built like a tank. The hull especially is beautiful. 

My plan is to look at the work needed over the long range to fit my budget, starting first with the priorities. Just like amortization of a loan except I wouldn't ever do a loan for a boat. It will be all done as I can afford. I will also have the boat in the water to enjoy at the same time. Ya it may be roughing it to start but that's ok, I have roughed it before. I lived off the grid for over a decade before it was trendy. I also slept on the ground for months at a time working as a Ranger in a big wilderness park before that. I don't need many luxuries to be happy and content but that's me. It may not be for everyone.


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

ColoGuy said:


> My own experience is that items that have received better care may prove to be better investments.
> .


And yet you bought a sorely neglected S2 with a frankenkeel, which was donated to charity it was in such rough shape?


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

North Channel Sailor said:


> My plan is to look at the work needed over the long range to fit my budget, starting first with the priorities.


Not a bad approach and I am interested to watch your progress. I have done my share of project boats and I think the decks/coring will be your biggest challenge on this one. It's not a fun nor an easy job. You might wish to reconsider doing the chainplates at the same time, as they are easy to do while recoring your deck and in the scheme of things, are not difficult nor expensive.

Don't let the naysayers get you down - motivation will be your biggest asset in this project, and in the end you will have a nice boat for yourself. Keep us updated with your progress.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

boatpoker said:


> My point in listing that information was to show that my estimate was based on a highly educated guess based on standards and experience not just the usual internet speculation.


Okay, so lets talk about internet speculation. $100000. The OP has already not spent his time and money on a survey- $700. He has already not spent his time and money on a boat ride, er I mean sea trial with a surveyor -$500. So now that $100 000 is already looking like $98 800.

Decks, sure, it sounds like he might want to to spend some time and money on ply wood and fiberglass.

The atomic 4 might need some work, never met one that didn't. Fuel system might need some work too. Heck, exhaust system to. My last boat had an A4, I can't say I'm a fan, but I can say it was very inexpensive to maintain.

Electrical? That's up to him. He can spend $3k to have the 12 volt rewired, or he can rewire the nav lights, bilge pump and starter himself. For lighting, he can switch to kerosene or even battery operated LED. AC, Again, he could spend a few grand to hire a pro to rewire it, or, he can do with out, it is a sailboat after all.

Bottom paint, irrelevant, it's a consumable.

Top sides paint, $60 a gallon.

Rig and sails are present and accounted for.

Black water system? Nope, it's got a new composting toilet.

Freshwater system? in the North Channel you can use a bucket.

Propane system, yes they can be pricey to install. An alcohol stove costs next to nothing to install.

I think it's pretty fair to assume he doesn't need a tonnage measurer or delivery Captain.

So far he's spent $1. Assuming he isn't trying to build a new Beneteau out of an old Hughes, how does he NEED to spend $98 799 on this laundry list?


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

North Channel Sailor said:


> I just found it ironic that an equally qualified surveyor found the vessel in good condition


OK, I've tracked it down .....
My credentials can be easily confirmed on the websites of Transport Canada, ABYC and SAMS
You can confirm your "equally qualified surveyor" credentials HERE.

In fact you too can purchase the same "Accredited Certified Master Marine Surveyor" certificate from that website for around $600US. And as a bonus they offer your first certificate FREE !


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Arcb said:


> Okay, so lets talk about internet speculation. $100000. The OP has already not spent his time and money on a survey- $700. He has already not spent his time and money on a boat ride, er I mean sea trial with a surveyor -$500. So now that $100 000 is already looking like $98 800.
> 
> Decks, sure, it sounds like he might want to to spend some time and money on ply wood and fiberglass.
> 
> ...


Suggest you calculate time and cost re-coring all decks, cockpit and cabin trunk, that alone will put a huge dent in the budget. I was involved in an insurance claim to totally rewire a Catalina 36 a few yrs. ago ... Cost of materials alone was $60k Cdn. I have replaced all electrical on my own boat over the last two years (much simpler than the Catalina), cost of materials $20k and I get them wholesale.


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## North Channel Sailor (Jan 15, 2017)

boatpoker said:


> OK, I've tracked it down .....
> My credentials can be easily confirmed on the websites of Transport Canada, ABYC and SAMS
> You can confirm your "equally qualified surveyor" credentials HERE.
> 
> In fact you too can purchase the same "Accredited Certified Master Marine Surveyor" certificate from that website for around $600US. And as a bonus they offer your first certificate FREE !


I am no expert and I am sure the po isn't either but the last survey looks legit to me. It was from a ABYC, CACMS certified(amongst other accreditations) surveyor. Why do you dodge the original question? When did you do your survey? Did you give it a rubber stamp too?


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

North Channel Sailor said:


> I am no expert and I am sure the po isn't either but the last survey looks legit to me. It was from a ABYC, CACMS certified(amongst other accreditations) surveyor. Why do you dodge the original question? When did you do your survey? Did you give it a rubber stamp too?


CACMS - dummy up some sample surveys, send them a cheque and you too can be a Certified Marine Surveyor. take a look at their website. There are at least a dozen of these outfits.

The only dodge is my surveys belong to the people who paid for them and I cannot divulge any private material.

All of my surveys are done to the same standard as these samples of actual reports (with all private info blanked out) on my website.

OK I've shown mine how about we post your survey and let these fellas see all the stuff I report on that he doesn't and let them judge.


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## North Channel Sailor (Jan 15, 2017)

This wasn't my survey either. So I am not going to make it public. It was done by the po. I just asked a simple question out of curiosity. When was yours done?


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Sorry I won't give any details on my report but just for educations sake let's put everybody in the loop.

Here is a link to a sample survey from the CACMS surveyor in question (from his own website)
Here is a link to samples of my work on my website.

What do you think ?


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

Survey for a $1 boat doesn't even make sense. 

The boat was on the hard - makes it pretty easy to self-survey. Better than paying a surveyer $700 to be "captain obvious" and tell you things like "deck core has moisture" and "Atomic 4 doesn't look new" or "standing rigging looks worn and should be replaced". 

At the end of the day, if the boat is unfixable, the owner is out $1 - instead of $700 to pay a surveyor.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Lazerbrains said:


> At the end of the day, if the boat is unfixable, the owner is out $1 - instead of $700 to pay a surveyor.


Not quite, average cost of disposal for a vessel of that size is $6,000Cdn.


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## North Channel Sailor (Jan 15, 2017)

Just ballpark it. You already shared lots of private information in regards to the boats condition when it was known as Ettle Weel.


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

boatpoker said:


> Not quite, average cost of disposal for a vessel of that size is $6,000Cdn.


Here in California marine dismantlers take them for free. They salvage the lead and other bits, and dismantle the boat.
You have these in Canada too - they take your boat away for free. Suprised you have never heard about this.
Just goes to show, surveyors don't know everything......


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## North Channel Sailor (Jan 15, 2017)

boatpoker said:


> CACMS - dummy up some sample surveys, send them a cheque and you too can be a Certified Marine Surveyor. take a look at their website. There are at least a dozen of these outfits.
> 
> The only dodge is my surveys belong to the people who paid for them and I cannot divulge any private material.
> 
> ...


Nothing aimed at you personally but this is a very unsettling reflection of your "profession". I also understand it's the same way for any profession. You get bad and good. Take note folks (buyers!)


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

North Channel Sailor said:


> Nothing aimed at you personally but this is a very unsettling reflection of your profession. I also understand it's the same way for any profession. You get bad and good. Take note folks (buyers!)


I completely agree and this is why wrote How to Become a Marine Surveyor on my site. It reeals the shabby side of the business.

and why I list All 250 Marine Surveyors in Ontario and their qualifications (or lack of) also on my site.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

North Channel Sailor said:


> Nothing aimed at you personally but this is a very unsettling reflection of your profession. I also understand it's the same way for any profession. You get bad and good. Take note folks (buyers!)


I completely agree and this is why wrote How to Become a Marine Surveyor on my site. It reveals the shabby side of the business.

and why I list All 250 Marine Surveyors in Ontario and their qualifications (or lack of) also on my site.

Caveat emptor are the watch words.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

boatpoker said:


> Suggest you calculate time and cost re-coring all decks, cockpit and cabin trunk, that alone will put a huge dent in the budget. I was involved in an insurance claim to totally rewire a Catalina 36 a few yrs. ago ... Cost of materials alone was $60k Cdn. I have replaced all electrical on my own boat over the last two years (much simpler than the Catalina), cost of materials $20k and I get them wholesale.


I'm thinking you and I shop at different stores if you would spend over $50000 on ply wood and fibreglass to make that deck weathertight.


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

Arcb said:


> I'm thinking you and I shop at different stores if you would spend over $50000 on ply wood and fibreglass to make that deck watertight.


Or $20k in materials to rewire a boat. I rewired last year buying my stuff at WM prices, and it didn't cost near that.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Arcb said:


> I'm thinking you and I shop at different stores if you would spend over $50000 on ply wood and fibreglass to make that deck watertight.


Taiwan boatbuilders proved many years ago that coring with plywood was a foolish endeavour. If you have never recored a deck, trunk or cockpit you cannot possibly comprehend the amount of labour involved.
Again, my opinions are based on having done that, been there, yours .... not so much


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

boatpoker said:


> If you have never recored a deck, trunk or cockpit you cannot possibly comprehend the amount of *labour* involved.


I've done it and am aware of how labor intensive it is.

However I'll quote you "Cost of *materials alone* was $60k Cdn" - not labor.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Lazerbrains said:


> I've done it and am aware of how labor intensive it is.
> 
> However I'll quote you "Cost of *materials alone* was $60k Cdn" - not labor.


From some of the questions and comments in previous posts and on other threads and the fact the you recore with plywood leaves me a little skeptical of your knowledge and experience level.

I doubt very much you rewired a 40 year old, 38 foot cruiser with battery charger, battery switches battery boxes, shore power cords, galvanic isolators, AC panel, DC panel, battery monitors and several hundred feet of marine grade AC & DC conductors to ABYC Standards for the numbers you suggest ...... a 24' Catalina weekender .... perhaps.


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## North Channel Sailor (Jan 15, 2017)

Arcb said:


> I'm thinking you and I shop at different stores if you would spend over $50000 on ply wood and fibreglass to make that deck watertight.


That's what happens when you spend to much time with adjusters and insurance brokers. It also shows why we should never wonder why our premiums keep going up. We pay in the end for the incompetence/corruption all around.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

boatpoker said:


> Taiwan boatbuilders proved many years ago that coring with plywood was a foolish endeavour. If you have never recored a deck, trunk or cockpit you cannot possibly comprehend the amount of labour involved.
> Again, my opinions are based on having done that, been there, yours .... not so much


Hey, what do you know? I have a 38 year old 35' Taiwanese built boat with cored decks with teak on top 

She spent 79-88 full time cruising the Caribbean then over the next 19 years cruised the lakes as well as return trips to the carribean plus did winter live aboard duty in Toronto and she is dry dry dry inside.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Lazerbrains said:


> I've done it and am aware of how labor intensive it is.
> 
> However I'll quote you "Cost of *materials alone* was $60k Cdn" - not labor.


Suggest you slow down and re-read that post. The "labour intensive" part was directed at recoring the entire vessel with the exception of the hull.

The 60k was in reference to electrical materials eg. $2.00 to $4 ea. for a single shrink butt connector and hundreds of them are required along with battery switches, galvanic isolators AC panel, DC panel, battery charger ....... the list goes on and on


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

boatpoker said:


> Suggest you slow down and re-read that post. The "labour intensive" part was directed at recoring the entire vessel with the exception of the hull.


My reading comprehension isn't that bad. You pretty clearly state the cost of materials at $20k - where do you buy your materials - Tiffanys?



boatpoker said:


> "I have replaced all *electrical* on my own boat over the last two years (much simpler than the Catalina), *cost of materials $20k* and I get them wholesale."


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Lazerbrains said:


> I would, but you deleted it to save yourself from the embarrassing claims you made about boat rewiring costing $60 in materials alone.


No posts have been deleted, check the post numbers. Once again I suggest you slow down and actually read.
and once again I'll clarify that my quoted numbers for recoring referenced materials and labour at no time did I quote a "material" number only. I beg you, slow down and comprehend what you are reading.

Given your many varied claims to ranging from no experience to vast experience on this and other threads forgive me if I remain skeptical.


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

A surveyor who has never heard of free boat dismantling, and thinks the "cost of materials" for a deck recore is $60k is not a very credible surveyor IMHO. 
I guess it makes sense when all you have to do is fill out a form a pay your money to become a "surveyor".


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## North Channel Sailor (Jan 15, 2017)

I get what Boatpoker is trying to say. The first time I climbed aboard the boat I already committed to buy, I admit, it looked daunting. The way I see it, and still do is, nothing ventured, nothing gained. 

The po had health issues and wanted to pass the torch/dream. I had to commit on the spot over the phone to secure the deal. I already went down a similar road with my previous boat. It was in much better condition but I bought it sight unseen as well. 

That first boat project taught me a ton and my family had a ball out on the water. I sailed it 10 years for very little money invested. I just sold her for what I had into it in TOTAL. Minus my labour of course but I don't count boat labour. I got that back in spades from the quality time out there on the water. The new owner also got a great deal on a ready to sail boat for a very good price(we all know what the market is like). 

So i would say, if anyone is thinking of taking on one the unlimited project boats out there, go for it. There is a lot worse things you can waste your time and money on. You just might surprise yourself what you can accomplish and how much fun you can have along the way. Too many good boats, sadly, are just wasting away these days.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Lazerbrains said:


> A surveyor who has never heard of free boat dismantling, and thinks the "cost of materials" for a deck recore is $60k is not a very credible surveyor IMHO.
> I guess it makes sense when all you have to do is fill out a form a pay your money to become a "surveyor".


I don't know where you are but the subject vessel is in Ontario. In Ontario there is no such thing as FREE boat dismantling and very strict rules from The Ministry of the Environment as to disposal. I average involvement in roughly 14 disposals per yr. in this regard. If you think you can drive up to a landfill site in Ontario with a 38' cruiser contaminated with oil, diesel and gasoline, battery acid, PCP's and drop it off, you are sadly mistaken. My $6k estimate on that includes the sanitizing of the vessel (yes, any sign of petroleum product and it will be rejected at the landfill)and labour involved in separting all materials (stainless, aluminum, brass, bronze copper, lead, FRP etc. and chopping it into 30lb. chunks. The 6k is an estimate based on yard rates and dump fees from last year in Mississauga, Ontario.

I am currently in Florida and have seen dozens of abandoned boats, some floating some in fields and some partially submerged. There are about 30 in this marina that the marina owners can't get rid of. Doesn't seem to be any free boat dismantling service here either.


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

North Channel Sailor said:


> I get what Boatpoker is trying to say. The first time I climbed aboard the boat I already committed to buy, I admit, it looked daunting. The way I see it, and still do is, nothing ventured, nothing gained.


Absolutely, and to be frank, yours is more that I would take on at this point in my life.

At the same time, you aren't the type who has never owned a boat before, and seem to be aware of what you are getting into.
Like I said before, I think your biggest hurdle will be the deck as well as keeping enthusiastic.

Best of luck with it and I look forward to the progress.


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## Skipper Jer (Aug 26, 2008)

North Channel Sailor, OP, $1.00 boat owner, CONGRATULATIONS, my cap and patch are off to you sir. I think you have scored the bargain of a lifetime with the purchase of this boat. Her parts on Ebay probably exceeds 5 grand easily. As others have said, ignore the naysayers and achieve your dream. My praise for your purchase is based on the assumption her hull is sound, no saturated core, and engine/transmission is functional. New sails? dingy? outboard? SCORE! So she may never sparkle like an Oyster 625, she is yours lock stock and barrel. Please keep us posted on your progress and good fortune.


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## AJC506 (Nov 3, 2016)

https://kawarthaboatwrecking.com/

Ontario.
Boat wreckers.
Boat recyclers. I could be wrong but from their website there seem to be no charges other than hauling I can see.

Not one person mentioned dumping a boat in a landfill for free.

Now could we return to the thread topic without any more "My experience is bigger than yours" dick swinging?


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Okay, here are some real world numbers. This is actual current pricing for ½' balsa core material at the store that NCS is likely to shop at. As you can see, there is a discounted price of $35.76 per sheet if at least 22 sheets are purchased. Quick dirty math, Hughes 38 has a beam of roughly 10' and length of just under 38'. Lets call that roughly 300 square feet of deck (sailboats aren't rectangles, so I estimated). Each sheet is 8 square feet. 300/8= 37.5. 37.5x$35.76/sheetx1.13%HST= $1515.33. Obviously this won't be the only expense to completely recore the entire deck and coach house, but it would be a significant portion of the cost.

I guess you'd also need a bunch of fiberglass. $800?

Epoxy, not really sure how much, quite a bit, not even going to guess.

For core material and glass though, for a complete redo, deck and coach house I'm seeing about $2500 plus the cost of epoxy?

I'm sure there are all kinds of problems with my very rough ball park estimate, I'm sure folks can poke holes in it but if NCS did some careful research, using this site as a guide, he might be able to get some realistic estimates together.

My opinion is, recoring that deck might make an appreciable difference to the value of the boat. I doubt you'd ever get your labour back, but out of pocket cash might be recoverable if she was sold at a later time.

Balsa Core 1/2" 24" X 48" S2s Coated : Balsa1/2 : Noahsmarine.com


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

AJC506 said:


> https://kawarthaboatwrecking.com/
> 
> Ontario.
> Boat wreckers.
> ...


This is a fairly new one, There have been a half dozen or so attempts at this over the years, they have all gone under in very short order. There was one fella I was sorry to see go under. He invested in a giant grinder which pulverized the glass which he then mixed with cement and produced patio stones and curb stones that were 20% lighter and 80% stronger than concrete. He failed after his first job. One simply cannot make money at it with the environmental restrictions in Ontario.


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## troy2000 (Apr 7, 2013)

boatpoker, I'm not sure why you're being such a rabid attack dog in this thread. Face it: the dude spent one lousy buck for a boat that needs a lot of work. He's planning on doing the work himself and financing it out of pocket as he goes, so it's not like the boat is going to bankrupt him.

The worst that could happen is that he runs out of ambition or ready cash, and abandons the project. In which case, WTF has he lost? Just whatever time and money he has into it, and he's still had the fun of working on it. It isn't like he's betting the bank on turning it into God's Shining Miracle afloat, and someone's going to repo' his house and his wife if he fails.

There's a difference between a friendly, heads-up warning about the obstacles in someone's path, and just grimly trying to rain on his parade. In my humble opinion, you've stepped *way* over that line.


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## amwbox (Aug 22, 2015)

Kind of agree. Not sure why someone taking on an old project boat is causing so much heat. Personally, I'm looking forward to watching the process, much as I do with Mads on Sail Life. 

Yeah, it's going to be a big expensive project. But boats are an irrational waste of money no matter how we try to justify it to ourselves. Worst case, he walks away from a boat that cost a buck and eats the loss. Best case...he winds up with a legit blue water cruiser (a Sparkman & Stephens design, no less) for a fraction of what it might otherwise cost to get a boat in better shape and then refit it. To say nothing of the enjoyment and pride he'll get from the work itself, as he claims he truly likes to do this sort of thing.


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## North Channel Sailor (Jan 15, 2017)

If you saw her anyone would say she deserves a chance. I am thinking it would be a sin to see her chopped up. 

Last spring a member from our club chopped up a decent looking Douglas 32 he couldn't sell. She was a beauty too. I thought long and hard about that one. It needed an engine but there's no way I could have been a two boat owner. She hand several thousands of dollars in gear and sails as well. Seeing that happening bothered me every time I looked.


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## North Channel Sailor (Jan 15, 2017)

troy2000 said:


> boatpoker, I'm not sure why you're being such a rabid attack dog in this thread. Face it: the dude spent one lousy buck for a boat that needs a lot of work. He's planning on doing the work himself and financing it out of pocket as he goes, so it's not like the boat is going to bankrupt him.
> 
> The worst that could happen is that he runs out of ambition or ready cash, and abandons the project. In which case, WTF has he lost? Just whatever time and money he has into it, and he's still had the fun of working on it. It isn't like he's betting the bank on turning it into God's Shining Miracle afloat, and someone's going to repo' his house and his wife if he fails.
> 
> There's a difference between a friendly, heads-up warning about the obstacles in someone's path, and just grimly trying to rain on his parade. In my humble opinion, you've stepped *way* over that line.


I am guessing that it's something to do with his connection with her in the past. He still hasn't clarified that. Maybe she was in even worse condition at that time. The po has made some improvements.


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## longjonsilver (Oct 18, 2014)

troy2000 said:


> boatpoker, I'm not sure why you're being such a rabid attack dog in this thread. Face it: the dude spent one lousy buck for a boat that needs a lot of work..... There's a difference between a friendly, heads-up warning about the obstacles in someone's path, and just grimly trying to rain on his parade. In my humble opinion, you've stepped *way* over that line.


The most contentious (other than political or gun) threads seem to be involving a person with a financial interest in the marine industry. i wonder why that could be? hmmmm


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## North Channel Sailor (Jan 15, 2017)

amwbox said:


> Kind of agree. Not sure why someone taking on an old project boat is causing so much heat. Personally, I'm looking forward to watching the process, much as I do with Mads on Sail Life.


If anyone needs motivation for a boat project this guy will do it. Definitely worth watching him. He is on his second boat project. He lives on the first project boat so he can afford to do the second project. Really well produced videos and very talented fixer upper.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

amwbox said:


> Personally, I'm looking forward to watching the process, much as I do with Mads on Sail Life.


Mad. Me? ME! Crazy, yes, BUT NOT MAD I NEVER MADLY GET!

:laugh


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

willyd said:


> I've never been asked for a survey for the boats I've had insured - perhaps the survey is asked for if you take out a loan? Mine have always been paid for in cash.
> 
> And now, as a bonus feature for the $1 boat thread, a free grammar alert - twice in this thread people have written "X and I" when it should have been "X and me" - only use "and I" when you are the subject; every other time it'll be "and me", as in "between you and me", "for Mary and me" or "except him and me". You're welcome.


My carrier required a Survey and I bought with Cash. There were probably carriers that wouldn't require a survey, but in pricing my existing carrier had by far the best pricing with all the discounts. Hope I got my Grammar good:grin


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

The business side of sailing just wants inexpensive older boats and their DIY owners to go away.

Yacht manufacturers and associated businesses don't want them around because they make it difficult to sell new boats for dozens if not hundreds of times the price of an old boat.

Insurance companies and their allies don't like them because it's difficult to justify the same sky high premiums for them. Often it has nothing to do with safety, in many cases it just isn't that hard for a knowledgeable owner to make an old boat safe for common usage if they feel inclined.

In my opinion, there is nothing the comercial side of sailing wants to see less than a knowledgeable owner buy a $1 boat, with no loan, no survey, only liability insurance and fix it up to good, serviceable condition and then post a YouTube video showing others they can do the same thing.


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

North Channel Sailor said:


> If anyone needs motivation for a boat project this guy will do it. Definitely worth watching him. He is on his second boat project. He lives on the first project boat so he can afford to do the second project. Really well produced videos and very talented fixer upper.


A friend just accepted free a P34, it was turned down also for free by a couple of people FWIW. Presumably after attempts to sell were exhausted but you never know how hard the seller tried. Not the point, some smart people with that liability just get out of it however they can, the concept of a negative return is just understood better by some people. Anyway with new Sails, thru hulls, prop shaft some minor engine work and all the regular Boat maintenance and he sails her in our local beer can regatta every week. Technically speaking the lifeline stanchions are in mush, arguably unsafe but its not my Boat. All boats are a project:laugh, the person doing the undertaking is the only Judge so enjoy the project that's what I say.
There is another H-38 project under way chronicled in this Forum just recently.


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## Ninefingers (Oct 15, 2009)

boatpoker said:


> One simply cannot make money at it with the environmental restrictions in Ontario.


The boats that are being disposed of at OHM appear to be cut up into pretty big chunks and just tossed in a dumpster, and then carted away.

I spoke with one guy who was cutting up an Ericson and he seemed to be making a profit. But who knows. He pulled a working Yanmar out. Newish batteries. 8 self tailers. 4,000 pounds of lead and some other stuff. Took him a couple weeks with 2 labourers at $15 ea. I wonder if he indeed make out okay. I don't think he had to go through any hoops with disposal, but maybe at the other end the bin got inspected.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I think BoatPoker is gettting too much blowback. He may even be proven right in time. We'll see. His warnings over mail-order surveyor credentials are spot on. 

Arguments that the marine trades don't like used boats or DIYs is all wrong. They make virtually all their money from this crowd. There is absolutely no DIYer out there that can do everything, it's just a question of what opportunity arises. On my boat, I hire a refrigeration guy, but do most of my own diesel work, for example.


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

There's a guy around here Oregon to Prince Rupert,Captain Ron Cook, who has made his income from money under the table to take ownership of derelict, some about 200 tons, the small ones get beached and burned .maybe, and big ones just sink at mooring or beached. Just shows that there are alternative facts about.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Minnewaska said:


> Arguments that the marine trades don't like used boats or DIYs is all wrong. They make virtually all their money from this crowd.


I'm not running down the Marine trades. I don't really keep it a secret that I worked in the Marine trades for 20 years.

Maybe there are guys making money working on sub $30k boats but I don't think it's a short road to riches. Of course, I could be wrong.


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## Bleemus (Oct 13, 2015)

Only made it through two pages of this thread till I read the original poster believes the glowing survey report he has. I shot my cocktail through my nose. 
Are we taking bets on what day of his upcoming week long trip the bulkheads holding the chainplates completely fail putting the rig over the side? That is assuming it doesnt sink in the Travelift slings. 

Sent from my Pixel C using Tapatalk


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## AJC506 (Nov 3, 2016)

I think you may have missed the sarcasm in that "believe the survey" post.


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## Bleemus (Oct 13, 2015)

AJC506 said:


> I think you may have missed the sarcasm in that "believe the survey" post.


He claimed that the surveyor who was "equally qualified" to boatpoker gave a glowing survey. You guys really need to stop doing this to me. I just shot another 2 dollars of rum through my nose. "Equally qualified". OMFG.

Sent from my Pixel C using Tapatalk


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Bleemus said:


> He claimed that the surveyor who was "equally qualified" to boatpoker gave a glowing survey. You guys really need to stop doing this to me. I just shot another 2 dollars of rum through my nose. "Equally qualified". OMFG.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel C using Tapatalk


There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that he knows his business, it seems like the guy is at the very leading edge of what he does, but in this case it's not clear to me what the repair estimate is based on.


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## Bleemus (Oct 13, 2015)

Arcb, I have respect for you and your background. We are looking at a boat that has been sitting uncovered for years with multiple breaches of deck laminate. The new owner believes the side decks looked fine. They are not. Not one deck fitting showed signs of reliable bedding. The whole deck on that boat is saturated. I will stand by that statement until proven wrong and I have never been near it with a moisture meter. If proven wrong I will shave my head and post photos here. Boatpoker is right. The new owner paid one dollar too many for this boat. 

That being said I do believe there is no boat that can't be restored. I participated in the sail trials on the famous J Class boat Endeavor which was hauled off a mud flat and restored by Elizabeth to better than her former glory. That is the privilege of billionaires. Some complained that there was only a few bits from the original but billionaires write their own rules. I hope the owner of this Hughes has the same determination and view on realism despite not having the bank account as Ms. Myers. 

Sent from my Pixel C using Tapatalk


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## Bleemus (Oct 13, 2015)

Oops


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Arcb said:


> .....Maybe there are guys making money working on sub $30k boats but I don't think it's a short road to riches. Of course, I could be wrong.


You're right, there are no marine trades that are going to make the next "how to become a millionaire" info-merical series. Although, one can do quite well, if they have the secret combination of being knowledgeable, reliable and trustworthy. I've said for years, if I could open a boat yard that simply kept it's promises and did the work correctly, I could charge anything I wanted to around here. I think we have literally one (out of dozens) and that's exactly what they do, charge whatever they like. The rest are a crap shoot.

Nevertheless, you hadn't parsed your original comment about the industry rejecting used boats to apply to only the sub $30k crowd. That would be the majority of boats on the water and most have little choice, but to hire the trades. I will agree, however, the trades like seeing the mega-yacht coming (used and all), where they will jack their tab.


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

I finally got around to looking at the youtube vid of the boat itself. Wow. What a mess. That being said, if you're the type who likes a boat renovation challenge, then boy, is that a great project! No shortage of work there, that's a fact. That's the first time I've seen a Hughes 38 in person. What a beauty. Classic. Extra points for you NCS for trying to save her.

I see Boatpoker's point: no way would anyone in the market for a boat want to buy this one; too much damage and just not "worth it" from a resale perspective to consider. And I've read enough of Bp's posts here (and looked at his website too) to have nothing but mad respect for his opinions. But North Channel is obviously in the market for a project/boat, not just a boat. More power to him. Not my thing, but glad to watch someone else do the dirty work.

NCS, please, please keep us posted here, or set up a facebook page or something!


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## North Channel Sailor (Jan 15, 2017)

Bleemus said:


> Only made it through two pages of this thread till I read the original poster believes the glowing survey report he has. I shot my cocktail through my nose.
> Are we taking bets on what day of his upcoming week long trip the bulkheads holding the chainplates completely fail putting the rig over the side? That is assuming it doesnt sink in the Travelift slings.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel C using Tapatalk


I was being sarcastic. The last survey has as much relevance to me as the surveyor here's opinion about running away and needing $100k to make the boat useable.


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## North Channel Sailor (Jan 15, 2017)

Bleemus said:


> Arcb, I have respect for you and your background. We are looking at a boat that has been sitting uncovered for years with multiple breaches of deck laminate. The new owner believes the side decks looked fine. They are not. Not one deck fitting showed signs of reliable bedding. The whole deck on that boat is saturated. I will stand by that statement until proven wrong and I have never been near it with a moisture meter. If proven wrong I will shave my head and post photos here. Boatpoker is right. The new owner paid one dollar too many for this boat.
> 
> That being said I do believe there is no boat that can't be restored. I participated in the sail trials on the famous J Class boat Endeavor which was hauled off a mud flat and restored by Elizabeth to better than her former glory. That is the privilege of billionaires. Some complained that there was only a few bits from the original but billionaires write their own rules. I hope the owner of this Hughes has the same determination and view on realism despite not having the bank account as Ms. Myers.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel C using Tapatalk


Does anyone remember where Fatty Goodlanders Hughes 38 came from before circumnavigating? I am light years ahead of where he started from and I have no plans to circumnavigate on mine. Just saying.


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## North Channel Sailor (Jan 15, 2017)

mstern said:


> NCS, please, please keep us posted here, or set up a facebook page or something!


I have one. I also have the youtube channel. Like they always say, like and subscribe. I may also have to get a patreon page or PayPal for this one lol. Stay tuned.

Here is a link to my fb page that shows a few of the bits included with the boat




__ https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=158354948023552&id=100015471429528


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## Towguy (May 8, 2016)

Yes definetly keep us posted,and it sounds like you will,,it seems like sometimes there is some negativity on a project like this...my opinion ,at least you start with a solid hull,mast ,lots of the hard ware ect...you sound somewhat knowledgable,much better than starting from scratch if you are willing and want to put in the time,people are spending 50-150,000 on a boat this size all the time ATleast you will know exactly what you have probAly for a lot less...beats the heck out of the guy who never sailed and was going to build a plywood boat to sail across Lake Michigan,...just saying ...good luck ..especially on that initial splashing to sail or tow it to your working area....Ralph. Mmmmm I don,t do Facebook....


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## North Channel Sailor (Jan 15, 2017)

Ya. I feel better knowing I have deck issues and starting from scratch rather than spending $15,20,30,k or whatever to find out like so many new boat owners do, that they have bad decks.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

I will say this is a boat that deserves to be restored as it is beautiful, and they have a nice history. Thing is even if perfect it would be unlikely to break 30,000 perhaps not even $20,000 in really good condition, as this is an old style boat while very beautiful, it has a limited market. They are a dated design, not useful for racing, and not comfortable for most folks to cruse on. This makes it for most folks a big day-sailor. It is going to have high marina costs and therefor limited market. There were a couple local for sale not sure if they ever sold. Sold boat though and worthy of restoration as long as you are doing it either because you enjoy the work, or you really want that boat. Keep in mind you will not likely recover even a small part of what you will put into it. I can't see the decks being done for less than 10,000 to 20,000 in materials. you will have several thousand in resin and glass and in core material. There is a lot of deck and therefore a lot of core. And yes plywood is the wrong material. I would use Balsa, or possibly foam. If it was me I would take care of the decks, and put the mast back up and sail it for a few seasons before even touching down below. The PO may have done a fair amount of work but was going about it backwards. You need to stop the damage and prevent further water intrusion first. Then do the easy and pretty stuff in the interior. Then once you have the water intrusion stopped you can sail in the summer then work on the interior in the winter. Electrical will be some money but as long as you keep it simple, little to no electronics it won't be too bad. Shore power system should be able to be done for $1200 in materials, DC likely about double that. But the Decks will keep you busy for a few years anyway.

What kills these kinds of projects is hiring out. If you have to hire anyone, you will be way in over your head. Seems to me that since you say the engine is good and sails are good you may be able to get it back in the water for about $50,000 or so. May not be perfect but doable. don't be ashamed to look for used equipment, it is a used boat after all.


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## Skipper Jer (Aug 26, 2008)

OP, tried your facebook link. Got this message "Sorry, this content isn't available right now"


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## longjonsilver (Oct 18, 2014)

miatapaul said:


> Thing is even if perfect it would be unlikely to break 30,000 perhaps not even $20,000 in really good condition,


In the last three years that i have been watching the market, Hughes38s in reasonably good condition have sold from $15K can to $30K can. There have been a few projects selling for less - $1, $150, $2500, $8000 (same boat as the $2500 one with a working Yanmar diesel). A project is currently for sale for $15K can - down from $30K can in the last two years, but still overpriced by about $10K. A very nice H38 is for sale for 42K can but it hasn't sold for the last two years, and the owner refuses to negotiate. A beautiful H38 with teak decks and gorgeous interior is being offered for $31K can. Another nice one with lots of equipment is privately for sale for $30K can.



miatapaul said:


> I will say this is a boat that deserves to be restored as it is beautiful, and they have a nice history. This is an old style boat while very beautiful, it has a limited market. They are a dated design, not useful for racing, and not comfortable for most folks to cruise on. This makes it for most folks a big day-sailor. It is going to have high marina costs and therefore limited market.


While true enough, as far as stated, this design is superb in handling chop and rough sea conditions, very well balanced, strong and goes to weather like few others. Most owners use them as a big day sailor true enough, but that is their choice, not a criticism of the design. Weaknesses in addition to those stated by miatapaul, are that the design gets squirrely going dead downwind. But who wants to sail 180 to the apparent wind anyway???

jon


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## North Channel Sailor (Jan 15, 2017)

skipper jer said:


> op, tried your facebook link. Got this message "sorry, this content isn't available right now"


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## North Channel Sailor (Jan 15, 2017)




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## North Channel Sailor (Jan 15, 2017)

miatapaul said:


> I will say this is a boat that deserves to be restored as it is beautiful, and they have a nice history. Thing is even if perfect it would be unlikely to break 30,000 perhaps not even $20,000 in really good condition, as this is an old style boat while very beautiful, it has a limited market. They are a dated design, not useful for racing, and not comfortable for most folks to cruse on. This makes it for most folks a big day-sailor. It is going to have high marina costs and therefor limited market. There were a couple local for sale not sure if they ever sold. Sold boat though and worthy of restoration as long as you are doing it either because you enjoy the work, or you really want that boat. Keep in mind you will not likely recover even a small part of what you will put into it.


For whatever reason even in good condition they seem to be under priced compared to similar CCA boats. So yes, not a great financial decision to restore. But when is boat money ever smart money. I look at the H38 and see similarities to the Hinkley, Alberg, Morgan and Bristol. This same hull was apparently bought by Hinkley for their 38. So if you like those boats, a really nice H38 is a bargain in comparison. Who can't appreciate the B40 for example?

Yes they feel small for a 38, but by all accounts sail wonderfully. Yes it will cost you more at a marina but I am at a club. Coming from a 28 she certainly feels roomy to me.


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## Skipper Jer (Aug 26, 2008)

Those cushions look new. I have the same fiberglass propane tanks. Much lighter than steel and you can see how much propane is in the tank.
Had a local metal worker weld up some holders out of stainless steel rod. They mount on the aft rail. 

How old are these pictures? There is snow in the background!


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## North Channel Sailor (Jan 15, 2017)

Just the other day. We still have lots of white stuff laying around, ice too. It's going away fast now though.

Hope to be out here at an anchorage soon.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Bleemus said:


> Arcb, I have respect for you and your background. We are looking at a boat that has been sitting uncovered for years with multiple breaches of deck laminate. The new owner believes the side decks looked fine. They are not. Not one deck fitting showed signs of reliable bedding. The whole deck on that boat is saturated. I will stand by that statement until proven wrong and I have never been near it with a moisture meter. If proven wrong I will shave my head and post photos here. Boatpoker is right. The new owner paid one dollar too many for this boat.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel C using Tapatalk


I got curious about the J Class endeavour, very cool boats.

I wasn't questioning any bodies assessment of the condition of those decks or the amount of work involved. I don't see any point in questioning the wisdom of the purchase, it's a done deal.

I forwarded in a post the federal pleasure craft construcrtion standards in Canada so the OP would have a standard to base his repairs on.

Another poster told me I was "incorrect" so I asked what standards should be used instead.

The OP is not sailing on the open ocean, he's over 1000 miles to the nearest salt water. Open lake Huron is near coastal, the North Channel itself I believe would be considered sheltered water .

What I wanted to know is, if Canadian federal standards aren't being used as the baseline, what standards are? Foreign standards? A classification societies standards? If foreign or private standards are being used, are they standards for offshore? Near Coastal? Sheltered waters?

It's a question, I'm not saying any body is wrong.


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

North Channel Sailor said:


> View attachment 89537
> 
> 
> View attachment 89545
> ...


I have that same grill, I live it. The Bottles aren't cheap either.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

North Channel Sailor said:


> ....Let me know what you think of her. Am I nuts?.....





Arcb said:


> ......I don't see any point in questioning the wisdom of the purchase, it's a done deal........


This isn't a random act of criticism. The OP specifically asked for this feedback in post #1. There is ample reason to question this wisdom. The OP themselves did so. I'm not going to pile on. Only the value of the salvaged stuff aboard was worth the dollar. The hull looks in very bad shape and appears in the pics that it will cost more than the boat is worth to repair. Yes, that's nuts. Asked and answered.


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## amwbox (Aug 22, 2015)

...wait. The hull? What was so bad about the hull?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

amwbox said:


> ...wait. The hull? What was so bad about the hull?


The generic definition of the term hull refers to everything other than the mast and rigging, which are probably also suspect.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Arcb said:


> ....It's a far cry from making up numbers and passing them off as fact....


Perhaps it was hyperbole, perhaps it will turn out to be correct. Not sure why its' crawled up your arse like this. BP seems to be a knowledgeable surveyor with a lot to contribute. His identification of the mail-in surveyor credentials was a valuable note. I suspect he's done countless insurance claim estimates, so has some credibility with estimating cost. None of us has seen this boat in person, but she sure looks like a money pit to me. If one enjoys working on their boat, even a boat in good core condition will provide countless hours of enjoyment. 

Some folks accept that calm water doesn't require the same safety standards as open water. I'm not sure that's good thinking. First, Huron can get ugly, as you know. Second, the threat to life and limb from a dismasting (ie suspect chainplates) in heavy air is the same for both bodies of water.


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## North Channel Sailor (Jan 15, 2017)

amwbox said:


> ...wait. The hull? What was so bad about the hull?


Hull looks very good. At some point it was barrier protected. No core.


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## North Channel Sailor (Jan 15, 2017)

Minnewaska said:


> This isn't a random act of criticism. The OP specifically asked for this feedback in post #1. There is ample reason to question this wisdom. The OP themselves did so. I'm not going to pile on. Only the value of the salvaged stuff aboard was worth the dollar. The hull looks in very bad shape and appears in the pics that it will cost more than the boat is worth to repair. Yes, that's nuts. Asked and answered.


I know these boats don't command big bucks in any condition so yes any roi are out. I have however, desired one for that reason, incredible value for a great design.

My thinking is soft deck issues are pretty common are they not? Delamination is what happens in a northern climate if left unattended. I honestly feel that a boat should not be tossed for deck repairs. The water damage in the cabin is minor and it was well ventilated so has never stayed damp.

The po actually had this boat listed for real money and got so frustrated by the process. He decided to create interest with the $1 price. I am not the only one that is nuts I guess. They came out in droves and lined up for the chance to take her over. He decided who would be best to try and bring her back. The last thing he wanted was to see her scrapped. He became seriously ill and couldn't bear to leave her sit any longer and deteriorate any further. When the po did his purchase survey it was only elevated moisture indicated. In the deck. Our climate will at least point to any moisture issues anywhere in a boat in short order. The glass pops, it doesn't rot undetected. The po got sick and put the boat in storage. He could only watch as the moisture delaminated the deck as he was unable to do any repairs.


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## amwbox (Aug 22, 2015)

Hard to divine in this context, since we've got footage of the boat out of the water.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Minnewaska said:


> . Not sure why its' crawled up your arse like this.


Okay, I'll tell you. With out going into detail, I personally know some of the parties involved. The Marine world in Ontario is smaller than you might think. By naming specific issues with the boat including the vessels name and attaching a repair estimate, there could be an impact on the current boat owners ability to resell the vessel, or if he were to walk away and leave it to the previous owner, it could have an impact on that person's ability to resell the vessel.

Because we aren't talking about a generic Hughes 38 of x age, I feel that accuracy is important. I did the polite thing, I asked nicely what the repair estimate was based on.

If this was your boat, and this level of detail was involved, wouldn't you appreciate accuracy?


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## North Channel Sailor (Jan 15, 2017)

I think BP's figure of $100k figure for repairs is not realistic. For any boat, in GENERAL, if a person had the means, they could throw $100k at any boat if desired. I see Acrb's estimate more in line to what my approach would be for repairs. What is at issue is BP appeared to cite a previous survey with inside knowledge, condemns the boat then ducks any questions about that when asked. He then stands on a pedestal about his superior credibility. If he would have just stated it's way too much money to fix based on my experience fine, no foul no loss. Like I said there are unprofessional individuals in any profession.


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## SV Siren (Mar 8, 2013)

Oh North!! What can of worms have you opened?? 

All kidding aside, you are going to have to update this thread as time goes on.. personally I cannot wait to see how this plays out in the long term.

I too bought an old CCA design. I have begun working on a restoration, vs splashing her right away. All boats need work, and money, it's just all a matter of how comfortable you are in spending both. Like you, once the boat is "done"(are they ever?), it will be the prettiest in the harbor...keep at it, and keep us all updated.


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

I think the problem is that Boatpoker makes wild claims that don't match reality, such as that a deck recore will cost $60k in materials alone, and then ducks and covers when called on it. He loses most of his credibility as a surveyor this way - maybe he knows all too well how easy it is to get a "mail in" surveyors license.

At the end of the day, this boat is salvagable - but that is wholly dependent on the abilities and motivation of the owner. As I said before, I've taken project boats on and this one is more than I would care to tackle - but it doesn't mean it isn't doable by any means, and I applaud NCS for taking it on.


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## North Channel Sailor (Jan 15, 2017)

I didn't appreciate the pot shots at individuals all around either. It's easy to keep dancing around but I usually can't help myself and call it like I see it. Dump on the boat, no problem but the personal jabs, I don't get that, who does that? My apologies to anyone offended here in the thread I started.


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## CVAT (Apr 29, 2012)

NCS unfortunately too many people seem to think it is OK to attack the person and not the issue, In my opinion this is a sign of immaturity, regardless of their age. I look at these forums as a means to share information and ideas; not as a means to personally attack someone. Those that do I try to ignore their comments as they normally provide little if any worthwhile information to the topic. I look forward to your updates on the restoration of the Hughes 38.


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## Skipper Jer (Aug 26, 2008)

OP, do you have a to do list and a plan of attack? Whats first? Are you going to use foam, balsa, or small squares of plywood to redo the decks? Since you are up north, what type of hardwoods are available? Do you have a wood shop? Also the distance between the yard, assuming you are going to keep her there, and home? How much time in a week do you have to work on her? Is the entire deck core saturated? Do you know the extent of the water intrusion? Have you fired up the Atomic 4 yet? Did the batteries take a charge. So many questions, I know. Are you going to sail or motor her back home? I subscribed to your you tube channel. Not too crazy about the bead board paneling. What's behind it?


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## North Channel Sailor (Jan 15, 2017)

The boat is not close and I haven't been back since taking the video. It is lying close to a boat yard at the southern end of Georgian Bay. I am making arrangements to launch the boat so I can sail back to my home area. It's about a week long trip by water. Once there, the priority is the deck. I tarped the boat when I was there to keep water out and plan to temporarily seal up the leaky bits to get home. The A4 and the rig is first on the list so I can get underway. 

I am still looking at all my options for core. I am about 1.5 hrs to my club where the boat will finally be. I am a working stiff with three kids, a mortgage and college tuitions to pay in the future. All the work will be as the budget allows and mostly on weekends. Evenings on the bits I can bring home. I have a garage/shop at home. 

Plan to sail. The paneling apparently was put on to "brighten" up the cabin instead of using paint. It's like a pvc material put on with stainless nails and adhesive. I'm not a fan either.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Arcb said:


> Okay, I'll tell you. With out going into detail, I personally know some of the parties involved......


Fair enough. It figured there was a bit more to it.

I just wouldn't chase BP away over it. Everyone has thoroughly made their point.

As for resale, that boat was already near impossible to sell. The PO had to give it away for $1.


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## scubadoo (Apr 5, 2014)

If you have the time, it seems this is the perfect boat to learn a lot of valuable skills on. No worries about making mistakes or accidentally putting a scratch on the topsides while prying off hardware! If this vessel helps you learn hands on (and doesn't damage you), then I'd say it is well worth the education. 

10 years down the road you may decide to sell her and start fresh, but this time you'll be stocked full of knowledge to make "wise" decisions....like buying your buddy a beer to sail on his/her boat in lieu of owning one!


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

Well I think the $100,000 figure is not that far out of range if you plan on paying someone to do the work. But if you do the labor and are willing to settle for nice used winches instead of the fancy electric brand new ones, then you should come well under that number. 

While I brought up the potential selling price not to say it would be an bad investment, but to give a guide of what kind of materials and effort to put into it. There is a Sea Sprite listed on Good Old Boat (they have lowered the price to 99,000 but I think it was much higher at one point) saying they spent over $200,000 on the restoration of the boat. Sure it may well be worth a premium, over the ones listed elsewhere, but it is still 3 to 4 times the price of others listed on Yachtworld. They also made some choices that seem to be unlikely to appeal to those interested in a Sea Sprite. They are really simple boats, and anyone likely interested in one would not like the fancy pressure water faucet and no manual one for real offshore cruising along with a huge double sink that leaves no counter space. Built in outdated TV and DVD player. But had the person perhaps paid more attention to what others might want in such a boat they might be able to get more for it if they had planned on selling it. Most of what they did added little to no real value to the boat IMHO.


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## North Channel Sailor (Jan 15, 2017)

For those folks who haven't seen the type of work involved here is a link to show what you face if you diy. This shows about what you can get accomplished in a week.






It's fairly straightforward work for diy.


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## zedboy (Jul 14, 2010)

Please inspect your rig carefully before putting any stress on it. Including both ends of everything, and all the chainplates. I have a friend who picked up a Triton cheap ("'coz they're blue-water boats, eh?") and spent a lot of time doing a first-rate job recoreing and epoxy filling the spongy decks, only to lose his rig off Monterrey due to a bad swage. It was pretty scary, he's lucky he got the stick cut off and things weren't too nasty out.

Same deal with proper fuel/ventilation setup for the A4, and proper wiring for anything high-current.

Some people love working on boats. That's not me, but that's awesome. The guy next to me spent 30 years building a Roberts design in steel. Only splashed it a year ago, has taken it offshore and is happy as a clam with how it sails. Built it with his boys, now one lives on it.

But safety shouldn't be negotiable.


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## Northeric (May 1, 2014)

If you're doing the work yourself the primary thing that goes wildly over budget is your time itself. I always underestimate the time it's going to take me to do a job. Materials costs are easier to plan for.

Correct me if I'm wrong, you plan to take the boat to Spragge and then commute to it from Sudbury? FWIW why not haul it home. The money it costs to haul it from Spanish would pay for itself with the convenience of having it at home and beside your shop. The kids could also be pressed into service a lot easier. Full disclosure, a friend of mine has a Conolift hauler that might work for you. Just saying and all the best.

North Channel Boat Haulers


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## North Channel Sailor (Jan 15, 2017)

That is good to know thanks. I didn't know there was a boat hauler local to here. It may be an option. I plan to sail north to start. After that when the work starts I can see the distance to the boat becoming an issue.


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## Northeric (May 1, 2014)

Dave located in the Walford/Massey area so he's close at hand.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Seems like the crux of the matter will be once you get into the deck cracks and the leaks, and find out just how much structural damage the water may have caused in unseen places. And of course, whether you replace the standing rigging before you're dismasted. On anything that old, presuming it is original rigging, that's worth doing before you put the mast up. But after you check the chainplates.

Stoves, engines, electrical wiring, that's all just "wrench stuff" that can be deferred. Overall I'm surprised at how well the interior wood has held up, without large areas of veneer lifting from moisture.


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## North Channel Sailor (Jan 15, 2017)

You would be surprised by how few boats ever change standing rig here on Georgian Bay in our freshwater. Believe it or not, the rig looks fine even on this 1968 as almost every other boat around here's rig similarly does. It was surveyed not that long ago by the po. That doesn't mean there is no fatigue stress over it's long life. On the other hand we only sail 4 or 5 months a year. We are also all primarily fair weather sailors on an inland lake going from anchorage to anchorage on weekends, so that explains why most boats stay in good condition despite neglect. 

Even with the deck problems, the boat has only fairly recently had any leaks. What has also helped is that there is a garboard drain and good ventilation. There is no mold or dampness below surprisingly. Having any upolostry or sails in storage also helps. When the rotten core job gets done, overall the boat won't be in that bad of shape. It will be a work in progress but definitely useable.


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## Skipper Jer (Aug 26, 2008)

Pull the chain plates. Use a penetrating dye. 
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-...ms/gear.../160425-check-your-chainplates.html
www.sailnet.com/forums/pacific-seacraft/279217-chainplates-2.html
www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-maintenance/71988-chainplates.html
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-...rums/gear.../82220-unforgiving-stainless.html

And the threads go on and on about cracked chain plates. I just got tired of copying and pasting.

And for the movie:


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## midwesterner (Dec 14, 2015)

Skipper Jer said:


> Pull the chain plates. Use a penetrating dye.
> http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-...ms/gear.../160425-check-your-chainplates.html
> www.sailnet.com/forums/pacific-seacraft/279217-chainplates-2.html
> www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-maintenance/71988-chainplates.html
> ...


None of those links worked for me.


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## Ninefingers (Oct 15, 2009)

Definitely worth towing it home. Everyone I know has wished they did it sooner.


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## Skipper Jer (Aug 26, 2008)

midwesterner said:


> None of those links worked for me.


How odd, everyone is from sailnet except for the video. 
I'll copy them from the browser address bar.

First one 
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-maintenance/160425-check-your-chainplates.html
This is the second one. 
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/pacific-seacraft/279217-chainplates.html
Third one
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-maintenance/71988-chainplates.html
Forth
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-maintenance/82220-unforgiving-stainless.html


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## North Channel Sailor (Jan 15, 2017)

Yikes. Scary. Some of the Asian builders I believe, were known to have used poor quality stainless. 

As for my chain plates they visually look good. The po mentioned that he recalled that his surveyor commented on how robust and solid they were.


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## North Channel Sailor (Jan 15, 2017)

Update: a little cleaning, some wiring, keel fairing and trouble shooting on the A4. The engine wouldn't turn initially. Worked the gremlins out of the wiring and panel switches. Beauty, turns over great but no start. After a cleanup of the distributor it started and sounded great! Check my YouTube channel to see the video coming soon. 

The transport and launching is booked and there is a good weather forecast for the trip north. Stay tuned.


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## cdsnyder83 (Jun 25, 2015)

You can't go wrong for $1 dollar! Worst cast scenario, if you find out it is to big of a project you can scrap it out (hopefully before sinking a ton of money into it). Just about any fiberglass boat can be saved if you are willing to put the labor into it, and at least you can build it to what you want. I wish you luck in the restoration and keep us posted on how it is going!


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## North Channel Sailor (Jan 15, 2017)

Some progress on the project.


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## Todde (May 3, 2017)

Fun times! My wife and I have taken over a Hughes 38 from 1969 in almost identical shape about two years ago here in Palau, Micronesia. It was fun watching Your video, like time travel through some blood and sweat to what I remember our boat being like. It's a fun project and good on You. Keen to see how it develops and where it goes. Good luck


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

Always a good feeling to hear an engine come to life. Sounds good and smooth too, but boy you have your work cut out for you with that wiring.


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## oldlaxer1 (Mar 27, 2008)

I remember that day on my boat so well. There was a happy dance happening behind the camera.


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## North Channel Sailor (Jan 15, 2017)

Update of progress


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## North Channel Sailor (Jan 15, 2017)

Some progress


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

North Channel Sailor said:


> Update of progress
> 
> http://https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=175897212935992&id=100015471429528


Your link doesn't work.


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## longjonsilver (Oct 18, 2014)

North Channel Sailor: i'm sure that you are real proud of your fine boat, in spite if all the naysayers. She really looks good there at the dock. May God give you a blessed trip up Georgian Bay and the North Channel to her home port. It's great to have another Hughes 38 in the water.
jon


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## Tanski (May 28, 2015)

Yep nice to see one of my favorite boats being kept alive. Kind of looking for one - without a saildrive but with a diesel already installed in place of the Atomic.
Not actively looking to buy but would if the right one popped up.


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## North Channel Sailor (Jan 15, 2017)

How is your progress going Todde


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## Gail Peterson (Apr 16, 2017)

Very nice to see her in the water. All the best with your restoration!!!


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

North Channel Sailor said:


> Some progress
> 
> View attachment 91089
> 
> ...


If I may comment in Canadian:

Beauty, eh?


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## cshrimpt (Jun 8, 2015)

There is no such thing as a $1 boat. Boats always cost as much as you have. 



Shrimp


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## midwesterner (Dec 14, 2015)

There seem to be some people on here who are quick to offer dire predictions of failure, almost like they relish and delight in the misfortune of others. It would be one thing if someone came on here for advice before they take on a questionable project boat. Offering warnings and cautionary advice is warranted in those situations. But when someone makes a decision to take on a challenging project, what is the point of insulting them and telling them that you think they are a fool, or predicting that they will fail?

I wish North Channel Sailor the best of luck with his project and hope to hear of him sailing one day. There are a lot of people who invest money and sweat-equity in old cars, houses and boats, that many of us might think a waste of time. But these are labors of love and I admire the people who accept the challenge.

For instance, here's a guy who spent a lot of time and money building an exact copy of the custom Harley that was used in the 1969 TV series, Then Came Bronson. Many might say that it was a foolish waste of time and money, but it brings joy to the man who built it.










http://www.motorcycleclassics.com/-...r-Then-Came-Bronson-Motorcycle/Bronson-12.jpg

Best of luck, and I hope to see you on the water one day.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

While I hope I'm not one to have excessively criticized, the OP (post #1) specifically asked for feedback and asked "Let me know what you think of her. Am I nuts?"

Can't then criticize those that answered the question.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

A used boat is just like an old used painting, or an old worn book.

Why anyone would pay $58(?) million for Picasso's sunflowers when they could buy a perfectly good poster reproduction for then bucks, defeats me. And the price of a ratty old Guttenberg Bible, incredible compared to the ones you can find free in any hotel drawer from the Gideons. (VBG)

Used boat? Like everything else, it is "worth" whatever someone is willing to pay for it. Find some starving artists to repaint the hull, maybe push it closer to that $58 million, eh?


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## longjonsilver (Oct 18, 2014)

The OP knows that he will have more expenses. He also has refitted a project boat before (his last boat) only later to sell it as a finished boat. He's been there done that. Personally, i think that he will succeed with this one as well.
jon


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## North Channel Sailor (Jan 15, 2017)

All in all after getting her in the water, I don't see why the boat cannot be used while being a work in progress. A good cleaning has done wonders. I'll start a section of deck one piece at a time. Stop the leaks and sail. Not being a deck steppped mast there are no compression or sagging issues. Basically if I get two bad areas patched up I'm good. I'll poke away at the electrical stuff the same way. The sails are in very good shape and now the motor is running. Off to the North Channel!


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I think you have a few good option for your trip. If there's any East in the forecast, run up the right coast. If there's any west in the forescast, run up under the lee of the Bruce, if there is serious South or North, either wait it out or motor up inside the 30000 islands.

The nice thing about Georgian Bay, is a good navigator who is patient and weather routes, can make really safe passages.


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## troy2000 (Apr 7, 2013)

cshrimpt said:


> There is no such thing as a $1 boat. Boats always cost as much as you have.
> 
> 
> 
> Shrimp


Yep. Life-style toys can do that to you. Here around my river through the desert, the money tends to gravitate towards either 'BOATS' (break out another thousand), or JEEPS (just empty every pocket). There's also an airport with some interesting toys tied down or hangered, but I don't have an acronym handy for 'private airplane.'


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Hey, that boat is starting to look nice... I'll give you $2 for it as it certainly doubled in value


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Private airplane? No no no. First you need to get the lingo right. That's "general aviation" as opposed to "commercial aviation".

Let me help you out there" Gimme Every Nickel..." and you can figure out the rest.

On a boat, you can replace a loose screw with one from Home Depot. On aircraft, it had better come with an FAA compliance letter and a serial number, and it ain't coming from the corner store. IIRC the only thing planes and boats have in common is that the toilet paper can be undertified. And that plumber's won't make house calls.(G)


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## longjonsilver (Oct 18, 2014)

krisscross said:


> Hey, that boat is starting to look nice... I'll give you $2 for it as it certainly doubled in value


Let me see, its now worth $2 MINUS the $100 grand to repair the electric system and the deck. (Materials only mind you)
:grin


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## North Channel Sailor (Jan 15, 2017)

Northbound. Off Cape Croker.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Nice job man. About half way?


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I just checked windfinder for Tobermory. You know you have big East winds coming?


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## Skipper Jer (Aug 26, 2008)

Motoring, sailing, motor sailing?

:worthless:


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

North Channel Sailor said:


> Northbound. Off Cape Croker.


45 knot onshore breeze tomorrow morning. Hope you're planning on hiding in Lions Head tonight...


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## longjonsilver (Oct 18, 2014)

Arcb said:


> 45 knot onshore breeze tomorrow morning. Hope you're planning on hiding in Lions Head tonight...


Lord, please keep Gary safe.
amen


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## longjonsilver (Oct 18, 2014)

Skipper Jer said:


> Motoring, sailing, motor sailing?
> 
> :worthless:


i don't have permission from North Channel Sailor to post pics here, but i posted it on my website:

What?s New ? hughes38.com


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## North Channel Sailor (Jan 15, 2017)

Safe in Killarney this morning. Just waking up after sailing all night. This old girl put a smile on my face! She sails wonderfully. 

A bit of drama of course. First was leaving a windy harbour with current. I'll leave it at that ahem. Next was smoke in the cabin motoring out of harbour. Not a lot but. Checked the usual stuff. Engine good, shaft good, electrical. I think the exhaust was doing it. Still a question mark. 

Had a great sail yesterday. Broad reaching all day in 20. In her element. Hardly touching the wheel. I decided to keep going with the great conditions after passing my last possible anchorage at 8pm. Before dark I reefed down. Under sailed and needed to do a lot of steering all night. No auto. All good. At dawn is when the weather hit about 20 miles south of Killarney. Lots of shoals in that area as well. I had too much sail up still in the dark when it started piping up hove too until daylight. Dropped the main then the furler jammed up. All fun stuff solo. I faired ok, the worst of it was Neptune got my favourite winch handle,so I got off easy. 

After daylight the east wind and rain blew. Seas really came up. I avoided a shoal area off Squaw and went to the west. Found myself clawing off a lee shore about 5 extra miles west of my destination. So that really added to the time. Sucked. Totally soaked, cold, tired and not able to leave the helm in bad conditions. The worst I've been in out there. Made Killarney shortly after though. Flopped in my bunk after sorting out the furler for about 9 hours straight.


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## North Channel Sailor (Jan 15, 2017)

Some footage here.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Awesome! Sounds like the skipper played a bigger role than how many zeroes were in the price tag.


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## longjonsilver (Oct 18, 2014)

Arcb said:


> Awesome! Sounds like the skipper played a bigger role than how many zeroes were in the price tag.


And the skipper chose a purebred from the best kennel in the world (S&S), not some mutt from the litter down the street.

Congrads NCS on a job well done.
jon


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## Tanski (May 28, 2015)

Might have a few rough edges but sounds like the boat went through everything fine. Be a keeper once you get it fixed up!
Imagine that you didn't die, sink, blow up, burn down or have any major failures! LOL!


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## North Channel Sailor (Jan 15, 2017)

It put some faith in the old rig for me too. Seems good. 40 kts and 4-5 meter stuff


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## zedboy (Jul 14, 2010)

Glad to hear everything's holding up. Hope you really did check the chainplates - especially if the bottom end is hidden. On my boat they're nice and exposed on the bulkheads, gives me a warm fuzzy feeling.


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## longjonsilver (Oct 18, 2014)

North Channel Sailor said:


> It put some faith in the old rig for me too. Seems good. 40 kts and 4-5 meter stuff


40 kts and 4-5 meters is quite impressive for a shakedown cruise
blessings
jon


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## Skellington (Apr 3, 2012)

I read through your progress and watched your videos. looks like you got a sweet project. The cool thing about these kinds of boat projects is that you will know it inside and out. Good on you for doing the self servey, and repairing things with your own hands. I am looking forward to seeing the progression of your beautiful boat.


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

North Channel, you should put your youtube link in your signature, then lazy people like me, would not need to click around for it.


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## North Channel Sailor (Jan 15, 2017)




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## North Channel Sailor (Jan 15, 2017)

zedboy said:


> Glad to hear everything's holding up. Hope you really did check the chainplates - especially if the bottom end is hidden. On my boat they're nice and exposed on the bulkheads, gives me a warm fuzzy feeling.


Yes I removed the shelves built around them to have a good look and left them exposed.


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## midwesterner (Dec 14, 2015)

I missed where he started from.

Congratulations, by the way, on a successful trip.


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## North Channel Sailor (Jan 15, 2017)

The boat was in Meaford


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## longjonsilver (Oct 18, 2014)

New pic of the trip on my website

What?s New ? hughes38.com

jon


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

Judging by the video it looks like you had pretty easy winds, but you made good time. 

That mainsail looks to be in great condition.


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## Tanski (May 28, 2015)

Just saw one for sail I may go look at.......


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## North Channel Sailor (Jan 15, 2017)

Lazerbrains said:


> Judging by the video it looks like you had pretty easy winds, but you made good time.
> 
> That mainsail looks to be in great condition.


Light to start but wind warning was in effect. Went to 20 then 40 at dawn.

Yes. All the sails are in good condition.


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## North Channel Sailor (Jan 15, 2017)

Last leg of my trip home completed


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## North Channel Sailor (Jan 15, 2017)

Leaving Killarney bound for The North Channel.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Ohhhh that looks cold.

Gary


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## Degas (Nov 15, 2010)

Hi NCS,

So what's the latest? It's been a while since your last update. I hope things are going well on the water and off.


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## North Channel Sailor (Jan 15, 2017)

Hello thanks for that. Doing well. Work continues at a slow rate since I can only get out to the boat on weekends. Slowly but surely and at least she is in the water and we can still enjoy time spent there. 

The main thing I have been doing is taking out the soft spots on the cabin top and around the cockpit. Trying to seal up fittings and keep leaks at bay. 

The engine started leaking oil. Very frustrating since it’s under the sole and over the keel. No idea from where with the poor access. It all runs out sitting there. It has only 300 hours and runs fine. This boat spent most of its time deteriorating on the hard. Consequently I have been using her like a 38 foot dinghy. Sailing on and off the mooring and anchor. Good practice. Some interesting scenarios especially solo but it keeps your head in the game lol. I plan to hoist the engine soon in the cabin so I can investigate. Here she is at her mooring. This picture was taken recently.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

I just looked up the approximate sales value of the Hughes 38 on Yachtworld and seems that your $1.00 boat could be had for between $20k and $30. In an honest appraisal of where you are after 2 years of expenditures, where do think you stand on just expenses, not labour? After these two years where do you think you will be in another two?
They say there's no such thing as a free boat, or in your case a dollar boat, but please, prove us wrong.


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## Degas (Nov 15, 2010)

North Channel Sailor said:


> The main thing I have been doing is taking out the soft spots on the cabin top and around the cockpit. Trying to seal up fittings and keep leaks at bay.


How are you doing that? Removing the fiberglass laminate on deck or under deck, re-coring, then re-glassing?



North Channel Sailor said:


> Here's she is at her mooring. This picture was taken recently.


Nice boat.

btw, please post more youtube videos.

btw again, I learned to sail on the North Channel. Still the best cruising area I've ever experienced.


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## North Channel Sailor (Jan 15, 2017)

Yes there is no free ride for any boat. I just like starting from $1. Honestly I have really only spent about $500 more on this boat than I would have on any other boat. That’s the amount I have spent on fibreglass materials for repairs. The majority of time has been for cleanup and stripping out any soft or rotten material. The same would go for any good old boat. They all need work. Some more than others. 

Thankfully I have a bunch of good sails and I can get out and enjoy the boat when I don’t feel like working on her. I also got a ton of gear that came with the boat which I sold in order to buy some things that I did want and needed. I got rid of a new auto pilot, the cradle, hard dinghy, 4 stroke outboard, Muir windlass, propane tanks etc etc. And I got a rib with 2 stroke 9.9, an alcohol stove with oven and steel to build a cradle that works on our club rail system. 

As far as the wet core areas, I have opened areas that have delaminated. It’s just a matter of remove and replace.


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## North Channel Sailor (Jan 15, 2017)

Well it’s kind of a mute point as far as value goes. There’s not much of a market for fixer uppers. I know I went from zero to something as soon as she got cleaned up and put in the water. With a freshly painted deck it will certainly add value since aesthetics are bad right now with patches and repairs everywhere. 

Once the deck and leaks are taken care of I will clean up the interior with a bit of cabinet work and paint. At that point she will no longer be a “project “ boat. So the value will be somewhere in the middle of what these boats go for.


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## North Channel Sailor (Jan 15, 2017)

The view from the $1 dollar boat this evening. Priceless.


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## Ninefingers (Oct 15, 2009)

boatpoker said:


> Suggest you calculate time and cost re-coring all decks, cockpit and cabin trunk, that alone will put a huge dent in the budget. I was involved in an insurance claim to totally rewire a Catalina 36 a few yrs. ago ... Cost of materials alone was $60k Cdn. I have replaced all electrical on my own boat over the last two years (much simpler than the Catalina), cost of materials $20k and I get them wholesale.


I'm looking at rewiring my 34 ft boat soon. how did you arrive at the $60,000 figure? If I hire it out, would I be looking at $150-$200,000?


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