# Kid overboad plan



## caberg

What's everyone's kid overboard plan?


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## JordanH

Harden the sheets, crew on the rail, check the polars and aim for target speeds. HIKE! HARD!

oh. I suppose this is a serious question. Ours is the same as our man overboard drill. Nothing changes.


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## Squidd

caberg said:


> What's everyone's kid overboard plan?


Who's kid we talking about...??


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## caberg

I sail with my wife and three year old son. So, the plan would be for the 3 year old, or any guest kids on board.

Currently, our plan is, we both keep our PFD's within reach, wife would put hers on, I'd round into the wind, and she'd get into the water and swim to the boy. Assuming he didn't get hurt going over, then he'd be fine in the water, just pretty freaked out by it I'm sure. 

One thing I'm pondering is, once wife is in the water with the boy, there's no real sense of urgency, so whether to take the time to drop the sails and start the motor for a smoother pick up.


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## paperbird

We realized there was a difference between planning and execution of the plan. Our plan was carefully thought out about who would drive the boat, who would go in the water, etc. Then my wife brought a dose of reality to the mix - she's going into the water after the kid, even if the plan says I should jump in. So version 2 of the plan:

- She goes into the water with a pfd and a horseshoe ring. 

- I drive the boat and execute (preferred method) a quickstop to keep the boat as close to her and the kid as possible. 

- Depending on the situation, I maneuver the boat to them/they swim to the boat. Lots of variation here.

We actually practiced this with each of the kids so they would get over the fear aspect. A couple times each year, we ran thru MOB drills starting with a life jacket and progressing through each of us going over the side. It made MOB drills fun which made it more likely that we would do them more often - always a good thing!


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## nickmerc

My wife told me no matter what I said she was going in the water with the kid. When we talked through it she said if she stayed on board she would be useless from being so panicked so she might as well go in to. No amount of logic has been able to sway her so we practice with just me spotting and running the boat.


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## paperbird

Hmm - my wife said exactly the same thing. Must be a mother's instinct. That's why we went to version 2 of the plan.


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## GaryHLucas

I'm a grandpa. I watched a lady try to convince her 4 yr old to wear a PFD. I thought why not take advantage of the fact that kids want to do what YOU do, and wear yours? In my car it's a game. Seatbelt? Check! Door? Check! Traffic? Check! OK we are ready to go!

The kid overboard plans assume you'll be able to get to and put on your PFD. Suppose another boat crashes into you and knocks everyone overboard? I personally know of three instances of that in NJ alone.
Get yourself a comfortable PFD and the kids too.


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## paperbird

good point, Gary. I omitted a key part of the plan. Both kids had to wear a PFD at all times whenever outside of the cabin. We're now instilling the same rules in the grandkids: get out of the car, put on the PFD, walk down to the dock, walk on the nails (center of the dock), board the boat with an adult hand, etc. Only time a PFD can come off is down below in the cabin.


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## caberg

We keep our PFD's in the cockpit area within reaching distance when we're underway. Yes, there's always a chance that one of us (or all of us) go over without a PFD, but that's always a risk. If it was blowing good, and/or if we had cold water (it's in the 70s right now), I'd have no qualms about wearing my PFD.

I actually like the plan of my wife going in the water, but I insist that she first puts on a PFD. (Sort of like the oxygen mask on the airplane.) When we talked about it, she didn't want to take the time to put on a PFD, but I convinced her that the 30 seconds it takes to get the PFD on is worth it. 

I wasn't sure if that was just a crazy idea to have another person go in (seems counter intuitive), but the thought of my 3 year old being alone in the water while I try to get back to him, puts a knot in my stomach. As long as my wife gets to him, I can take as much time as I need to get back around to them (which is why I'd consider starting the motor and dropping the sails).

What I do need to learn is how far back he would be by the time wife is suited up and in the water, assuming I had immediately rounded into the wind. I guess an easy way to test this is just throwing over a PFD some day and practice getting back to it.

We will also practice a "kid overboard" drill on a light wind day and make it fun. We swim off the boat at anchor all the time, so the water itself and getting up the swim ladder is very familiar for all of us. Just need to add the variables of being caught off guard and a moving boat.


ETA: Oh yea, kid has the PFD on at all times. That's a given. He's allowed to take it off below, but unless he's down there sleeping, he usually still has it on.


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## PorFin

caberg said:


> ...As long as my wife gets to him...


This is an assumption, and not by any means a given...

If conditions are marginal, either due to sea state or visibility, then MOB #2 may not be able to find MOB #1. At that point you're now facing having to find and recover two people and not just one, hampered by the fact that now you must do it all alone.

The most successful plan is the one that doesn't include the kid being in the water. Do anything/everything to keep that from happening in the first place. Tethers, leashes, safety netting, duct tape, velcro suits -- whatever works. Keep the kid on the boat and this becomes a moot discussion.


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## Cruisingdad

If the spouse jumps in, then instead of one person in the water, you now have two to find. That may be fine for flat seas or a lake, but when the swells hit 4ish feet (+), it becomes difficult to keep an eye on that person overboard.

I propose the following: Instead of your wife jumping in, have her keep a constant watch on the KOB (Kid Overboard) while you do everything in your power to shut down and redirect the boat. Now you have four eyes to retrieve the child instead of two. SHe never takes her eyes off of the KOB. THat is important. SHe doesnt help sail, or motor, or pull off sheets. All she does is watch the child.

That is our MO. I would suggest tossing over a lifejacket in 4+ foot seas and watch how quickly it dissapears without constant watch. I cannot imagine the stress of having to steer the boat, turn her around, etc and then find two people in the seas.

You might consider a MOB pole as an alternative to the wife jumping in. THere is even one that pops out a lifejacket as I recall. Saw it on a post in Sailnet I think. Here is the standard:

Plastimo - Telescoping Crew Overboard Pole - Orange Floats - 48875

If you have trouble being comfortable sailing with the kids on board as you are very worried about losing one, you could invest in one of these. It seem to be the ultimate for safety and protection:

RAYMARINE LIFETAG WIRELESS MOB W/BASE STATION AND - E12185

Just my opinions and some thoughts.

Brian


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## paperbird

Regarding your question about how far away the kid would be. I'd suggest that everyone who drives practice the Quickstop. Essentially just heave-to immediately when someone goes ovbd. Whatever the point of sail, just turn through the wind, backing the headsail, then turn reverse the helm. Practice and figure out how best to execute it on your boat, especially off the wind - even with a chute up. We practiced it frequently by tossing something in the water and seeing how far away we get before the boat stops. If the helmsman reacts well, it's usually about a boat length away. Most of the time, we ended up close enough (maybe 1 boat length, 2 at the most) for my wife to jump in, swim to the kid, and for them both to swim back to the boat. All I had to do was lock the helm down, throw a floating line out, get the ladder down and cheer them on. 

If we were slower to react or some other factors dictated, then maneuvering the boat back to them took more time and required more steps.


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## Cruisingdad

PorFin said:


> This is an assumption, and not by any means a given...
> 
> If conditions are marginal, either due to sea state or visibility, then MOB #2 may not be able to find MOB #1. At that point you're now facing having to find and recover two people and not just one, hampered by the fact that now you must do it all alone.
> 
> The most successful plan is the one that doesn't include the kid being in the water. Do anything/everything to keep that from happening in the first place. Tethers, leashes, safety netting, duct tape, velcro suits -- whatever works. Keep the kid on the boat and this becomes a moot discussion.


We were obviously thinking the same thing.

Brian


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## caberg

Good points about needing to recover two people instead of just one. We're on Lake Champlain and although we can get 4+ foot waves, we certainly would not be out in the wind that it would take to create those conditions. Even with 15-20 kts of breeze, often we're only seeing waves 1-2 feet because we'll hug protected shorelines. That said, wave action is one reason why my wife wants to go over if the kid does, since we're worried that a combination of going under in the fall, then panicking, then being tossed about in the waves might cause him to take in some water. So at least wife could help calm him and make sure he's not taking waves in the face. By 5-6 years old, maybe not an issue, but at 3 he has no concept of remaining calm in a stressful situation. 

I like paperbird's reference to a quickstop within 1-2 boat lengths of the person overboard--that's impressive and I will definitely try this out myself to see if I can achieve similar results. I guess the main point is to practice and see what happens and what works.

Finally, the goal is obviously to not have anyone go overboard ever. But it's never a moot point because it can happen no matter the precautions so it's worthwhile to think about it and plan. I know some people tether, and that's about as much protection as you can get from going over, but really our kid would not like being tethered at all and I do want sailing to be a positive, fun experience. Under certain conditions I can see why you might tether, but for the type of sailing we're typically doing on the lake I think it would be overkill.

Thanks for all the tips/advice, etc!


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## svHyLyte

caberg said:


> Good points about needing to recover two people instead of just one. We're on Lake Champlain and although we can get 4+ foot waves, we certainly would not be out in the wind that it would take to create those conditions. Even with 15-20 kts of breeze, often we're only seeing waves 1-2 feet because we'll hug protected shorelines. That said, wave action is one reason why my wife wants to go over if the kid does, since we're worried that a combination of going under in the fall, then panicking, then being tossed about in the waves might cause him to take in some water. So at least wife could help calm him and make sure he's not taking waves in the face. By 5-6 years old, maybe not an issue, but at 3 he has no concept of remaining calm in a stressful situation.
> 
> I like paperbird's reference to a quickstop within 1-2 boat lengths of the person overboard--that's impressive and I will definitely try this out myself to see if I can achieve similar results. I guess the main point is to practice and see what happens and what works.
> 
> Finally, the goal is obviously to not have anyone go overboard ever. But it's never a moot point because it can happen no matter the precautions so it's worthwhile to think about it and plan. I know some people tether, and that's about as much protection as you can get from going over, but really our kid would not like being tethered at all and I do want sailing to be a positive, fun experience. Under certain conditions I can see why you might tether, but for the type of sailing we're typically doing on the lake I think it would be overkill.
> 
> Thanks for all the tips/advice, etc!


If you want a real education on the subject, discuss it with your wife and have her agree to chuck a seat cushion (that you can afford to loose) overboard, unannounced, at some point. Ideally she should do so somewhat after you've had the discussion so it's really a surprise to you--and not something you're anticipating--and then sit down and keep still/quiet. It will take you a quite a few seconds--at best--to realize what's happened during which, even at a stately 4 knots, you'll cover several hundred feet. A child's head in the water, even with him/her wearing a "floatie" is only about 6" in diameter and I'll wager 10 bucks you'll have a hard time spotting it, even in small swells, to say nothing of 4' seas, just as you will the cushion. The quick stop maneuver will bring the yacht to a stop--but you'll have to take your eyes off the COB and if you do so, even momentarily, you'll likely not be able to reacquire the COB if there's any seaway at all.

I appreciate your interest in making sailing a "a positive, fun experience" for your child but relinquishing authority/common sense to be your child's "pal" is a fool's errand. Would you allow the child to travel in your car without wearing a seat-belt, even if you're only going a mile to the local convenience store? (I certainly hope not!) The same applies to the yacht. Ensuring the child's safety is your primary obligation as a parent, not ensuring that he/she has fun.

Our daughter sailed with use from the time she was a tiny baby. When she came on deck, she wore a PFD and a tether. No questions asked, no discussion. Her mother too wore--and still wears--an inflatable PFD on deck and puts it on just as she does a seat belt--before we leave the slip or "driveway".

On our boat we have a routine. When we're getting ready to leave the slip, we recite the "Rules". The first rule is "Safety First". The second rule is "Always hold onto the boat", etc. My daughter learned the Rules and could recite them by the time she was 2-1/2 years old. She's 19 now and still recites the Rules as do we all. Ignoring common sense safety measures for the sake of your opinion of "fun" for your child is overkill, and could very well end up being exactly that.

FWIW...


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## caberg

Thanks, svHyLyte. Certainly appreciate the insights. Never meant to suggest that I'd take unreasonable risks for the sake of fun, because that's definitely not me. Perhaps sailing on my lake up here is a different experience than what others have on the ocean. I don't think tethering here on this lake on most days can fairly be analogized to wearing a seatbelt in the car. 

Just out of curiosity, what did you tether to, how long was the tether, where could your daughter go while tethered? Our rule is that when we're underway, our son has his feet on the cockpit floor or his butt on a cockpit seat. If he follows that rule, it would be virtually impossible for him to go over, but nothing is certain. I just see the tether getting hung up, wrapped around legs, etc., but since I haven't tried it guess I really can't comment.

I will try the suggestion about the seat cushion. Again, I think it must be a bit different up here on the lake. Growing up with a power boat on this lake and water skiing/wake boarding, I've never really had a problem seeing a person in the water.


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## JordanH

Hi caberg,
My initial answer began with a joke because I didn't think there would be this much discussion on the subject. Sorry for that.

As others have posted above, they are correct. Never allow anyone to go into the water after a man overboard. Period. In a worst case scenario, you would lose not only your child but also your wife. Devastating.

In Canada, it is illegal to tow a water skier without a spotter in the boat. The reason is common sense, you can't be watching behind you while also steering the boat competently. The same logic works for MOB. Your wife needs to be onboard in order to act as a spotter - panic'd or not, it's her mother's duty to keep her eyes on the kid. FWIW, the kid should also practice watching and pointing at the MOB during any sort of drill you do; Make it a game and he'll get the idea and the training may save you or your wife one day.

As I said in my original post, the MOB procedure remains the same whether it's a kid or adult. Pick the procedure that works for you and practice.

(Remember the 3 most important rules of sailing, "Stay on the boat, stay on the boat, stay on the boat".)


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## Cruisingdad

caberg said:


> Good points about needing to recover two people instead of just one. We're on Lake Champlain and although we can get 4+ foot waves, we certainly would not be out in the wind that it would take to create those conditions. Even with 15-20 kts of breeze, often we're only seeing waves 1-2 feet because we'll hug protected shorelines. That said, wave action is one reason why my wife wants to go over if the kid does, since we're worried that a combination of going under in the fall, then panicking, then being tossed about in the waves might cause him to take in some water. So at least wife could help calm him and make sure he's not taking waves in the face. By 5-6 years old, maybe not an issue, but at 3 he has no concept of remaining calm in a stressful situation.
> 
> I like paperbird's reference to a quickstop within 1-2 boat lengths of the person overboard--that's impressive and I will definitely try this out myself to see if I can achieve similar results. I guess the main point is to practice and see what happens and what works.
> 
> Finally, the goal is obviously to not have anyone go overboard ever. But it's never a moot point because it can happen no matter the precautions so it's worthwhile to think about it and plan. I know some people tether, and that's about as much protection as you can get from going over, but really our kid would not like being tethered at all and I do want sailing to be a positive, fun experience. Under certain conditions I can see why you might tether, but for the type of sailing we're typically doing on the lake I think it would be overkill.
> 
> Thanks for all the tips/advice, etc!


THis is a great thread and glad you started it!! Take everything here as it is meant (positive).

Like SvHylyte, we raised (and still do) our kids on board. What life jacket are you using? For young children or any who do not know how to swim, I believe Mustang is the only way to go. They float the child head-up, have a crotch strap, and a grab line to pull them out (the latter being a big deal, actually as they are hard to grab when overboard and accounting freeboard).

Here is a pic of our kiddos with the Mustang:



















It is one of the best pieces of safety gear we have ever purchased kid-wise. And - it works! We have had our kids go over twice, but both times was at the dock. I have never had our child go in under way. Underway, we keep a constant watch on them and in anything but good seas, they must stay in the cockpit or (when it gets bad especially) down below.

I firmly believe that teaching your child to swim can save their life. This was a high priority for us (esp as cruisers). They will go into the water, eventually, and very possibly without a jacket on (walking down the dock). Knowing how to swim is critical. It can also help in KOB situations.

If you sail at night, I also believe the kids (and adults) should have a auto-strobe and a whistle. We keep these on the kids. THey are a bit pricey, but it gets cave-dark at sea and in the wind you cannot hear someone cry out. I think it is made by ACR and is rather small with a strobe on top that is water activated. They also make a flashlight for MOB that we carry. THe little orange whistles are dirt cheap.

Another thought (and different subject) that we always try to do is point out where the ladders are at a marina and what to do if (when) they fall overboard. Some marinas have them, some dont. THe one we are at now does not so we have instructed them where to go to be safe until someone can help them out. ALso, check out the ladders that they would use as exits because many are heavily encrusted with barnacles that can cut little feet up. In some cases, it might be better to have them hold on and cry out for help.

I really like those Raymarine MOB's. Cool stuff (finally they come out with something novel). Not sure if you have to have Raymarine products to use them... but if I was doing a lot of offshore sailing, especially where one parent typically singles, they could sure help the offwatch to get some solid sleep. They are on our list.

Great thread.

Brian


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## caberg

Cute kid, Brian. 

I bought the Mustang Lil Legends vest but it just did not fit my guy very well. It was really tight around the neck. He's 35 pounds so at the low end of the Child's size (30-50 pounds) I thought it would work. He's in a regular Stearns type buckle vest for now and I plan to lifejacket shop in spring to get him sized up with a good quality vest for the season (unfortunately we'll be on the hard in another month here). The current vest, despite being some knockoff brand, does actually work very well. He'll jump in and the vest pops him right up, face up. Has most of the flotation in the front like the Mustang (but not the handle).


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## caberg

JordanH said:


> In Canada, it is illegal to tow a water skier without a spotter in the boat. The reason is common sense, you can't be watching behind you while also steering the boat competently.


Same here. And we always do use a spotter, but practically speaking as the driver I'm not usually relying on the spotter to find my downed skier.

Hmmmm.... I'm going to have to give some thought to our plan.


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## paperbird

Quick comment on the swimming. Put your kids on a swim team. Theyll practice everyday abd gain lots of confidence. Lessons only meet a couple times a week.

Fwiw


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## sww914

My son is a dwarf so he isn't too heavy. We always wear PFD's when we're underway so I figure that I'll circle around and scoop him up with a boat hook just like the dog.


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## vtsailguy

caberg said:


> We're on Lake Champlain and although we can get 4+ foot waves, we certainly would not be out in the wind that it would take to create those conditions. Even with 15-20 kts of breeze, often we're only seeing waves 1-2 feet because we'll hug protected shorelines.


Also on Lake Champlain, and I have found often the wave size doesn't always correlate to the wind. I have had 4' waves with <15 knot winds - especially if you are out in the middle and there is that 100 mile fetch north to south!

I'd add an additional step for people. We have three kids also involves "kids in the cabin!!" while the adults run the drill.

I am anticipating soon that our 9 year old can start being the spotter though...


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## nickmerc

I completely agree about not having the wife go in after the kid. And if I can convince her in the moment of this, she might listen. However, she informed me that she does not care and will go in after the kid. Even after having this same conversation I am unable to sway her opinion.

I like the seat cusion test. That will be a great way to illustrate just how hard it will be for me alone to find them and handle the boat. I hope it works or I will be looking for two people when it happens.

To those who say keep the kid (person) on the boat no matter what, that is all well and good. But, you cannot rely solely on them not falling over. Small kids are curious and clever and will find ways to foil your best plans. Implement the saftey plans (teather, netting, etc.) as well as practice the KOB.


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## GoldiH

We always wear our inflatable pfd's, just in case someone (me aka mom) needs to go after a kid and also to set a good example. But our kids are small (1 & 3) and there is honestly no way I'm not going in after them. We try to bring guests with us when possible, so they get the job of keeping an eye on the kid and mom overboard while my husband brings the boat around.


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## davidpm

GoldiH said:


> We always wear our inflatable pfd's, just in case someone (me aka mom) needs to go after a kid and also to set a good example. But our kids are small (1 & 3) and there is honestly no way I'm not going in after them. We try to bring guests with us when possible, so they get the job of keeping an eye on the kid and mom overboard while my husband brings the boat around.


Inflatable pfd's are great for hanging out in the water while someone picks you up.
If your plan it to swim with one I would test that plan.
With some inflatable's swimming is impossible.


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## caberg

GoldiH said:


> But our kids are small (1 & 3) and there is honestly no way I'm not going in after them.


That's how we feel with our 3 year old. By 5-6 years old, I think it would be different.


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## MITBeta

davidpm said:


> Inflatable pfd's are great for hanging out in the water while someone picks you up.
> If your plan it to swim with one I would test that plan.
> With some inflatable's swimming is impossible.


The great thing about inflatables is that you can deflate, or partially deflate them, swim, and then re-inflate.


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## svHyLyte

GoldiH said:


> We always wear our inflatable pfd's, ...But our kids are small (1 & 3) and there is honestly no way I'm not going in after them.


That sounds very heroic and self sacraficing (and may prove to be) but will serve no useful purpose but give your husband two people to rescue rather than one. Firstly, diving in with an inflatable PFD will ensure you are unable to swim at all until you shed the vest during which time you will most certainly loose sight of the child and become disoriented as to his or her location. Then, absent a vest, little more than your neck and head will extend above the surface of the water (so long as you keep treading) giving you no vantage and, sorrounded with nothing but sky and water, you will have no points of reference. In any sea, you will have a hard, if not impossible time, locating the child and a tough time getting to him/her if you do. There are many more arguments against your proposed response but I shall not go there. The fact is, however, that there have been too many instances when one person leaving a boat to rescue another has resulted in both being lost and, in one case I know of, two brothers and a father were lost.

The solution to this issue is to keep the kids aboard. Tethers, netting, firm discipline and vigilence. Thousands of kids have sailed with their parents without inadvertantly ending up in the sea and there is no reason why it should happen with you/your kids.

FWIW...


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## urbanhermit

on a lighter note, my kids are older, out of school and still like to live at home cause dad is a good cook. So, the lake is warm, every one wears a PFD and if one goes over, i trim the sails and try to squeeze out another knot..


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## urbanhermit

great thread by the way!


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## GoldiH

Thanks for the input. I should have added that our current kid overboard plan is for the day sailing we do in a small area of Galveston Bay. There's usually lots of other boats around and if somehow our daughter manages to fall in, my goal is to keep her calm and float with her until we get picked up. If we were to do more extensive sailing, we would have the kids tethered.


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## caberg

Or, you can just sail along with your kid tied to the back of the boat like below.

(Kidding, obviously, though we were at drift in this picture which is why we had him tethered for swimming.)


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## nickmerc

Hylyte - You are thinking rationally and making perfect sense. You are not thinking like a momma bear whose cub is in danger. The insticnt is to protect the cub at all costs. This is very hard to overcome. I agree, keeping the kid on the boat is the best solution. However, not being prepared for what will happen if/when the kid goes over is irresponsible. Even if that includes dealing with two people overboard. Not everyone will be rational in an emergency and assuming they will can be dangerous. We've all heard it before... prepare for the worst, hope for the best.


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## elspru

The most common drowning victims are typically adult males that don't wear life jackets and drink alcohol. Vast majority of drowning 80%+ are due to not wearing a life-jacket. 

Children, especially young boys are likely to follow their fathers example -- are the second most likely group. 
In adverse weather, or night time sailing a jacklined tether is advisable. 
If you'd like to practice KOB, when the time comes, you have to be there.
In Canada at least, 43% of people that drowned were within 7feet of shore, i.e. on dock.
So you have every reason to be wearing a life-jacket, on boat AND on dock much like a seatbelt. 

Our KOB plan starts at birth, with infant "swimming" or acclimating our child to the water, teaching them to relax, enjoy it and float. Eventually when they are 2, they should be able to do some basic swimming autonomously.

Of course everyone in the family is to wear lifejackets on the dock and the boat, though can take them off in the cabin. 
Jacklines are to be installed on the boat, fore-and-aft, stopping a few feet short of transom,
so if fallen overboard rather than being dragged behind, are alongside it.
2 tethers, one 3ft another 6ft, so can switch jacklines safely. 3ft recomended length. 
To have lifejacket on before climbing stairs out of cabin,
To hook tether in to the jacklines before stepping on deck.

In the case a tether snaps, or some other unforseen circumstance..
Considering they'll already be wearing their lifejacket properly, 
can throw in a bouyant flag pole for easier location in higher sea,
train them to swim towards the flag and hold onto it. 
Have wife as the spotter, with boat hook, and rope ladder ready. 
come to a halt near the flag, catch it with boat hook, make sure kid is on it,
bring them around to the transon to get on with the ladder,
or have winch ready to hoist them up by the safety harness straps. 

In terms of lifejackets, I only trust the solid kind, too many points of failure in inflatables. 

Jumping in after someone is potentially fatal and should be avoided,
I've heard of, and had my own personal experience, that saving a drowning person is dangerous, since they aren't swimming properly and so try to climb on top of you, thus not letting you breathe. The only way to save a panicking person by swiming to them is to knock them out first, which I would strongly discourage for children with their thin skulls and all. So the best method is to give them something to grab onto, i.e. flag-pole, boat-hook, rope-ladder, until they are safely aboard.

The whole acclimitizing to water and teaching them basics of floatation and swimmiing helps reduce chance of panicking. Up here in Canada, also winter-swimming is on the agenda, in order to get over "cold-water-shock" where in the first few seconds of hitting cold water, heart rate and breathing rate increase, unexperienced people may inhale water by accident, wheras experienced people can use it to swim to surface, get to the flag, get into heat-saving position, and then can do rapid "breath of fire" tumo meditation while they wait for the boat to return and pick them up.

In cold water, it is good idea to have winching system ready, as after 10 minutes in freezing water, fine motor skills don't function, so climbing boarding ladder may be difficult. In terms of hypothermia treatment, warm dry cabin, warm blankets, warm hugs, warm water, warm fire, warm dry clothing, and encouragement on a job well done, exhileration of living. Later on another day, can go over what went wrong, and make plans to avert similar scenario in future.


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## Cruisingdad

elspru said:


> The most common drowning victims are typically adult males that don't wear life jackets and drink alcohol. Vast majority of drowning 80%+ are due to not wearing a life-jacket.
> 
> Children, especially young boys are likely to follow their fathers example -- are the second most likely group.
> In adverse weather, or night time sailing a jacklined tether is advisable.
> If you'd like to practice KOB, when the time comes, you have to be there.
> In Canada at least, 43% of people that drowned were within 7feet of shore, i.e. on dock.
> So you have every reason to be wearing a life-jacket, on boat AND on dock much like a seatbelt.


I'm not sure how old your kids are, but the key is teaching them how to swim. I think we agree on that. The inflateables are not acceptable for children under a certain age (I cannot remember the age). The best LJ's are the mustangs for kids up to about 60 lbs, then we switch off to a more traditional and comfortable jacket.

Comfort is the key to wearing a life jacket for any long periods of time. WHen the kids are old enough to legally wear a inflateable, they will have one. Exception is offshore, but that is another discussion.

We do not wear LJ's at the dock. DO you and your kids really do that? I NEVER see that, and I know a LOT of cruising kids and parents. Now, mind you in WA, I think it is a law up to a certain age. No getting around that. But certainly down here, no way they would wear them at the dock. Just teach them to swim and (what we always do) point out the exit spots on the docks. It is a wonder how many people fail at simply pointing out the exits from the docks.

I suspect most of the people that die at the docks either hit freezing cold water and went into shock, or were plastered/drunk. All the drownings I am aware of were from people being drunk. Unless you outlaw alcohol on the water, that statistic will never change. But since we can assume your child is not drunk, shock and learning to swim are the two key components to preventing drowning. If I were around water where falling in was lethal, I would consider a LJ and for my children too. Honestly, though, when the water is that cold we typically avoid the boat.



elspru said:


> In terms of lifejackets, I only trust the solid kind, too many points of failure in inflatables.


I don't agree with that. Moreso, by having the harness an intregal part of the jacket, they are more likely to be worn and used when they otherwise might not. Regular harnesses are terribly uncomofortable when also added into a offshore LJ, not to mention any other gear you would put on. I would not sacrifice safety in terms of comfort, but I believe a well made inflateable with integral harness is perfectly safe for offshore use.



elspru said:


> Jumping in after someone is potentially fatal and should be avoided,
> I've heard of, and had my own personal experience, that saving a drowning person is dangerous, since they aren't swimming properly and so try to climb on top of you, thus not letting you breathe. The only way to save a panicking person by swiming to them is to knock them out first, which I would strongly discourage for children with their thin skulls and all. So the best method is to give them something to grab onto, i.e. flag-pole, boat-hook, rope-ladder, until they are safely aboard.


No offense, but that is absolutely incorrect. I was a Red Cross certified Life Guard for six years. That was how I made my money to go to college. I have never heard of knocking someone out to rescue them. Where did you read that?? Crap, if you are going to do that, just let them drown and then go after them. One of several correct methods is to swim under them and come up behind them and place your arm across their shoulder and under the other arm. A better option is to swim to them with another life preserver and let them grab onto that while towing them back to shore. It is absolutely true that a drowning person will try and pull you under, but there are ways out of that too. I have rescued MANY drowning people, and most of them adults (believe it or not). Going into the water is a last option, but sometimes you have no choice. THere are reasonable and safe ways to do it that don't include knocking someone out. I have never heard of that in my life. I certainly can't immagine someone doing that to their child, and most children simply won't have the ability to pull down an adult unless the adult is a sucky swimmer.

The greater danger as this thread pertains to, is not that the adult will be killed as the child pulls them under, the issue is that now you have TWO people to rescue AND you have lost a lookout. In a flat lake in summer, that may not be a big deal. But in any seas, you can lose sight of a person very quickly... seconds actually. Now you have lost your lookout (who may or may not make it to the child), you have to resuce an adult too, and you have to handle the vessel on your own. It is a terrible idea to jump in the water after a child unless they went in without their lifejacket and the time to turn around would mean death. I cannot imagine that circumsance with a safety minded parent, but that is about the only way I can see to even consider it.



elspru said:


> The whole acclimitizing to water and teaching them basics of floatation and swimmiing helps reduce chance of panicking. Up here in Canada, also winter-swimming is on the agenda, in order to get over "cold-water-shock" where in the first few seconds of hitting cold water, heart rate and breathing rate increase, unexperienced people may inhale water by accident, wheras experienced people can use it to swim to surface, get to the flag, get into heat-saving position, and then can do rapid "breath of fire" tumo meditation while they wait for the boat to return and pick them up.
> 
> In cold water, it is good idea to have winching system ready, as after 10 minutes in freezing water, fine motor skills don't function, so climbing boarding ladder may be difficult. In terms of hypothermia treatment, warm dry cabin, warm blankets, warm hugs, warm water, warm fire, warm dry clothing, and encouragement on a job well done, exhileration of living. Later on another day, can go over what went wrong, and make plans to avert similar scenario in future.


How do you "acclimate" for that? Do you really throw your child or adult in the water and tell them what to do? Aren't you concerned about serious medical conditions happening, like a stroke or shock? I understand talking this through with others and children, but I cannot imagine actually doing it. Seems terribly dangerous to me. Also, I thought the time to rescue was under five minutes? I guess it all depends on the water temp, the persons fat content, clothing, etc.

Brian


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## elspru

That's very interesting cruisingdad, 
I didn't know about those methods of saving drowning people,
I especially like the one with the extra life-jacket to tow them in.
Admitedly I never had any kind of lifesaving or swimming classes,
guess it's just a commonly accepted urban legend around here method I shared. 

Indeed going immediately into freezing water without previous experience probably isn't a good idea. 
That's where people get those "under 5 minute" statistics, it's when people succumb to cold-shock,
true hypothermia take s amuch longer period of time. for freezing water, and it doesn't get much colder than that, it's 10 minutes for fine motor, half an hour for large motor, and about an hour till unconsciousness, afterwhich there is still a chance of ressucitation, espeically children. 


In terms of acclimating to cold water, it's done in stages, in terms of starting with bath warm water, to simply warm water, to cool water, cold water, and only then freezing water. 

When I was a baby my parents acclimated me in a similar manner, and said they even bathed me in water that was too cold for them :-S, anyways but now I have a very high cold tolerance, and ability to generate heat. 
Usually even now when it's hovering around freezing temperatures outside I only wear a sweater, gloves and hat. If it gets to +5C or more I don't need the hat or gloves. 

Anyways ya, also perhaps living in Florida and such it may seem foreign to you, but winter swimming is a tradition amongst hardy northern folk, typically in accompanyment with a hot sauna. We break a hole through the ice in the winter and dunk ourselves or swim for under a minute or so to be on the safe side. Afterwards hurrying back to the sauna to warm up. It's great fun and can be quite exhilerating both physically and socially. 

Anyways also I guess since your in florida it's quite warm there, 
so perhaps the tradiitonal solid vests are too hot for you, I dono.
In Canada generally people are much more safety conscious, 
everyone puts on a seat belt when they get into a car,
and obeys traffic lights even in the middle of the night. 
Also at every dinghy and educational yacht club I've been to,
everyone puts on a PFD before stepping on the dock.

Though admitedly when poweryachting at family events on my spouse's dad's boat nobody wears a life-jacket/PFD, and he also drinks beer rather freely. 

I personally find PFD's quite comfortable, and don't see why I wouldn't wear them for safety, at least on our family boat. Typically what everyone else is doing does little to effect how I do things, since I make conscious decisions about my actions, based on facts and evidence. If I make a good habit of doing something in a safe way, then on the off chance that I'm inebriated or tired and trip, i'll be safe. 

Besides, lots of people drive cars, drink alcohol, eat meat, become obese and malnutritoned, so what? There are clearly better and safer ways of living, such as a primarily plant based diet with calorie restriction and optimal nutrition. My only drugs are nutrients lol, mmm raw sunflower lecithin - enhanced attention and dream recall. 

btw our kids are still on the way, have a baby boy due in late April. 
we're saving up to buy a boat, likely in spring of 2014. 
I'm taking some boating essentials coarse and 
getting more sailing experience next year.
Can take family for first yacht sail .


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## Cruisingdad

elspru said:


> That's very interesting cruisingdad,
> I didn't know about those methods of saving drowning people,
> I especially like the one with the extra life-jacket to tow them in.
> Admitedly I never had any kind of lifesaving or swimming classes,
> guess it's just a commonly accepted urban legend around here method I shared.
> 
> Indeed going immediately into freezing water without previous experience probably isn't a good idea.
> That's where people get those "under 5 minute" statistics, it's when people succumb to cold-shock,
> true hypothermia take s amuch longer period of time. for freezing water, and it doesn't get much colder than that, it's 10 minutes for fine motor, half an hour for large motor, and about an hour till unconsciousness, afterwhich there is still a chance of ressucitation, espeically children.
> 
> In terms of acclimating to cold water, it's done in stages, in terms of starting with bath warm water, to simply warm water, to cool water, cold water, and only then freezing water.
> 
> When I was a baby my parents acclimated me in a similar manner, and said they even bathed me in water that was too cold for them :-S, anyways but now I have a very high cold tolerance, and ability to generate heat.
> Usually even now when it's hovering around freezing temperatures outside I only wear a sweater, gloves and hat. If it gets to +5C or more I don't need the hat or gloves.
> 
> Anyways ya, also perhaps living in Florida and such it may seem foreign to you, but winter swimming is a tradition amongst hardy northern folk, typically in accompanyment with a hot sauna. We break a hole through the ice in the winter and dunk ourselves or swim for under a minute or so to be on the safe side. Afterwards hurrying back to the sauna to warm up. It's great fun and can be quite exhilerating both physically and socially.
> 
> Anyways also I guess since your in florida it's quite warm there,
> so perhaps the tradiitonal solid vests are too hot for you, I dono.
> In Canada generally people are much more safety conscious,
> everyone puts on a seat belt when they get into a car,
> and obeys traffic lights even in the middle of the night.
> Also at every dinghy and educational yacht club I've been to,
> everyone puts on a PFD before stepping on the dock.
> 
> Though admitedly when poweryachting at family events on my spouse's dad's boat nobody wears a life-jacket/PFD, and he also drinks beer rather freely.
> 
> I personally find PFD's quite comfortable, and don't see why I wouldn't wear them for safety, at least on our family boat. Typically what everyone else is doing does little to effect how I do things, since I make conscious decisions about my actions, based on facts and evidence. If I make a good habit of doing something in a safe way, then on the off chance that I'm inebriated or tired and trip, i'll be safe.
> 
> Besides, lots of people drive cars, drink alcohol, eat meat, become obese and malnutritoned, so what? There are clearly better and safer ways of living, such as a primarily plant based diet with calorie restriction and optimal nutrition. My only drugs are nutrients lol, mmm raw sunflower lecithin - enhanced attention and dream recall.
> 
> btw our kids are still on the way, have a baby boy due in late April.
> we're saving up to buy a boat, likely in spring of 2014.
> I'm taking some boating essentials coarse and
> getting more sailing experience next year.
> Can take family for first yacht sail .


With all due respect, and I know you Canadians have thicker skin than us South FLorida boys, but I sure hope you discuss washing your child in freezing water with your pedi before doing it. I would be shocked if any physician were ok with that. And quite frankly, I still don't see the point. Sounds uneccesarily dangerous to me, and painful for the child. Also sounds like a great way to catch a horrendous cold.

Is your wife ok with that? Mine would hit me over the head with a skillet and throw _me_ into the bathwater.

None of my business, I guess. I am just surprised by some of the customs of my Northern Friends. Maybe I live a sheltered life where we wear sweaters when the temps hit 70 and a full wet suit when the water is 75!

Brian


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## elspru

Cruisingdad said:


> With all due respect, and I know you Canadians have thicker skin than us South FLorida boys, but I sure hope you discuss washing your child in freezing water with your pedi before doing it. I would be shocked if any physician were ok with that.


"My dad was a physician and he really believed you needed to acclimate to the cold and the only way you can do it is to swim in colder water." from
Cold Water Swimmer - Yankee Magazine



> And quite frankly, I still don't see the point. Sounds uneccesarily dangerous to me, and painful for the child. Also sounds like a great way to catch a horrendous cold.


Er that's not really how colds work, there are a variety of factors at play for it. 
Typically if you have healthy gut flora, then colds are almost non-existent.



> Is your wife ok with that? Mine would hit me over the head with a skillet and throw _me_ into the bathwater.


Oh ya she's okay with it.
She was initially hesitant about baby swimming in general, till she found out how common it was.

Though ya, don't intend to bathe the baby in water any colder than we can handle comfortably. The most important part of infant swimming/floating is that they enjoy themselves.



> None of my business, I guess. I am just surprised by some of the customs of my Northern Friends. Maybe I live a sheltered life where we wear sweaters when the temps hit 70 and a full wet suit when the water is 75!
> Brian


lol that's funny, 70f or <20C is when I put on a long sleeved shirt,
anything 20-30C is t-shirt and shorts weather,
we sweat real hard at anything above 25C. 
over 30 usually wear light colored long sleeves,
to minimize moisture loss and sun burn.

sweater is only for <10C 50f,
same for wetsuits, as water never goes above 25C anyways,
except maybe in some small ponds and inlets.

The benefit of the northern latitudes,
is that there is more oxygen, so can think more,
and people can grow bigger.


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## sailortjk1

I realize we are or were talking about an overboard situation, but I would think the OP should be concentrating on making sure the child does not go overboard to begin with.
I have seen child harnesses advertised recently, if the child is too small for a harness than maybe a simple line through their PFD, make sure the pfd has crotch straps for a child, safety netting between life lines and toe rail... etc.

If you do have an overboard, maybe trailing a 100' polypropylene would help,


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