# Where to attach the sea anchor?



## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Even though I've read between 2-300 sailing books by now, I've somehow missed one of the greats: Adlard Coles, "Heavy Weather Sailing." Reading it now and learning a great deal.

Personally I've always thought that, for my boat/crew/situation a parachute sea anchor will be the first line of defense for a survival storm if heaving-to is no longer a viable option.

On S/V Fairhaven, I have a wonderful/awful 8ft long bowsprit, with associated rigging, hanging off the pointy end of the boat. This presents challenges to figuring out the best place to lead a sea anchor from. Ideally I should choose a spot that is immensely strong, has a minimum of chafe, and will hold the boat at a good angle with the rode. See picture below.










I have a bridle set up to the stem (blue arrow) that I use for my main anchor. It's great as it reduces the needed scope and is quite strong as it is attached to the bobstay attachment point. On my rig, the bobstay is the most loaded stay. This seems like a good possibility for leading the sea anchor. It might assist the bow rising over a wave due to it's low aspect, and the fitting is man-enough for the job, but every time I would be nose-down the line might chafe (or bend) on the bobstay and dolphin striker. Also the boat might yaw quite a lot as there is quite a bit of windage (furled headsail) forward of this point.

The Anchor roller I have installed at the end of the sprit (green arrow) is pretty beefy but I have some doubts. It's 3/8 welded aluminum and uses a 5/8"stainless bolt to bolt the roller through the cranz fitting (the collar at the end of the bowsprit where all the rigging is attached) so it is, by way of the bolt, part of the rig. The lead would be free of chafe, except at the roller itself, but I worry it might try and pull the bow down, instead of helping it up as the lower point of attachment might do. Also being part of the rig means it's strong enough, but the way it attaches to that 5/8"bolt makes me worry it could shear off under huge loads.

Lastly is the red arrow, pointing to the fairlead up forward. This is a bronze fitting through a hefty bulwark in the bow. Since it is part of the hull/deck, I expect it is man enough for the job. It might help hold the bow slightly off center as the fairlead isn't centered. On the other hand if the boat veers the other direction, the anchor lead will be chafing across, and trying to destroy, the bowsprit and it's rigging.

Thoughts?

MedSailor


----------



## Bradhamlet (Nov 8, 2002)

I'm thinking the red arrow with a fair lead or bridle would be where I would start with. Maybe us it in a 20-25kt day and see what your results are. 
Lancer 36
Brad


----------



## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

Have you read the Pardeys book on storm tactics? Their approach it use a second line from the parachute anchor rode to amidships so that the parachute is off to the side of the bow. this would work very well with the fairlead you have and eliminate any possibility of chafe forward (except for the fairlead of course) and help you stop forereaching.


----------



## jimmalkin (Jun 1, 2004)

I would suggest Kilarney has it right - lying head to sea and yawing through the wind is uncomfortable and unsafe as you are bow into breaking waves. The advantage of the heaving to solution of the Pardey's is the ease of motion in the vessel as the slick created by the hull eliminates/significantly reduces the breaking tops of the waves. With your fairlead and a midships line from a well bedded cleat to a large block pulling your para aft to produce an approx 30 degree angle to the wave trains, you should be well set.

Try it out in moderate conditions as every boat needs a slightly different set of rudder and/or sail combination to keep balanced at 30 off the wind. In our 50' cutter, we found that we didn't need any sail up at all as the hull and trunk cabin structure provided enough force to keep the rudder active.

The Pardy book also has a video which is helpful. Their suggestions have worked well for us.


----------



## billyruffn (Sep 21, 2004)

Given all the gear you have on the bow, you might consider using a bridle to hold the boat at a slight angle to the wind / seas. You will probably run the rode out one of the closed bow chalks and then put a snatch block of the rode with a bridle line leading aft to the cockpit. You can then use the bridle line to adjust the angle of attack.

One of the advantages of using the bridle over simply running the rode from the bow is that you may find that the seas and the wind aren't necessarily coming from the same direction (or you may have seas coming from several directions) and so you may find it necessary to adjust the boat's heading to reach the most comfortable riding angle.

Lin and Larry Pardy have a video for sale (and rent on You Tube) that explains how they use a para-anchor in heavy weather. An intro to the video is at Featured Authors :: Lin & Larry Pardey :: Pardey Videos - Paradise Cay Publications - Nautical Book Distributor. Retail and Wholesale, maritime books, boating, sailing, pirates, fishing, lighthouses, mermaids, boats, navigation, charts, noaa training 
and if you double click on the introductory video it seems to take you to youtube where you can rent it for 48 hrs for $2.99.

I bought the video several years ago and found it very helpful. I use it as part of the crew briefing if we're heading offshore and it seems like we might have need of the para-anchor.

The Pardy's boat has a bowsprit like yours and so it might be helpful to have a look at how he sets up the para-anchor.


----------



## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

I appreciate the bridle suggestion, and I do own the video and book by the 
Pardeys. My concearn is that the loads on the bridle line would be beyond what anything on my boat could cope with. 

This concearn is borrowed from Mr. Adlard Coles, after reading his book. He is a big fan of sea anchors, and the pardey method in general, but his research shows that the pardey method may only be acceptable to small boats. He notes that the bridle line is under tremendous load, and doubts that larger boats could have the gear to cope with bridle loads. 

Chapter 25 of his book documents a 45ft Tyana Surprise Ketch of 13tonnes displacement (mine is a 41ft ketch of 14tonnes displacement) whereby they deployed their 28ft para-anchor and set up a bridle of 3/4" line per Lin and Larry Pardey's instructions. They say the bridle "broke as soon as it was tensioned." 

Of course I could use an amsteel bridle line, but then the snap shackle and my Lewmar 44 winches might not be up to the task. Ideally I would like a setup where I "could" use the bridle method, but would also function with a single rode if I were unable to get the Pardey method to work.

MedSailor


----------



## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Biliruf,

What gear did you choose for your bridle? What is your boat's displacement?

MedSailor


----------



## gershel (Feb 4, 2001)

Here's 1 more book, probably the most informative on sea anchors. 
Drag Device Data Base

drag device data base

Marc


----------



## Flybyknight (Nov 5, 2005)

My concern about running a sea anchor from the bow is that as the ship is going astern, there is a tremendous load on the rudder if you are not able to positively lock it centered in place; no easy task.
I always thought the ultimate survival mode was trailing warps astern, as K Allard Coles suggests.


Dick


----------



## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Flybyknight said:


> My concern about running a sea anchor from the bow is that as the ship is going astern, there is a tremendous load on the rudder if you are not able to positively lock it centered in place; no easy task.
> I always thought the ultimate survival mode was trailing warps astern, as K Allard Coles suggests.
> 
> Dick


Can you point me to where he suggests that?

He does say that for those who do trail drogues astern (I don't think he has a low opinion of warps for their lack of drag and large stowed size) that keel profiles like mine are ideal. He mentions, and I take heed, that this technique usually requires multiple skilled helmsmen, which I am unlikely to have. I also worry about crew fatigue with active tactics such as this.

If the anchor is of sufficient size there should be little load on the rudder as there is little drift backwards. Correspondingly though, the loads on the line and bridle are massive.

MedSailor


----------



## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

I decided that rather than expose the wrong end of the boat to breaking seas as in using warps or drogues, and then having to constantly be at the wheel that I would go the sea anchor route. I know the CG recommends drogues rather than sea anchors but I just feel more confident that the pointy end should be into the sea when waves get really big and start to break.

_Storm Tactics_ suggests that either port or starboard tack should be chosen as the conditions dictate regarding sea room and likely storm path. The main anchor line should run through the place where it will chafe least. On my boat it is through the standard hefty old fairleads on either side of the bow, about 18" back from the bow roller (which I would NOT trust). The secondary line, run from the stern somewhere and attached to the main line via a snatch block, serves to haul the anchor line aft so that it prevents the boat from tacking.


----------



## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

On a fibreglass hull, I would put a massive U bolt on the outside of the hull, well down on the hull, on the stern quarter, with a massive back up plate and several layers of glass buildup under it, as a sea anchor attachment point. 
This makes deployment easy, and totally eliminates chafe, and yawing. It also makes the most comfortable motion at sea, in a gale. I've never had to steer with a stern drogue, in nearly 40 years of cruising. I just lash the helm down, put in the earplugs, and go to sleep. Laying off a stern drogue, drastically reduces load on the rode. 
I don't think that, by mooring from the bow, you will succeed in keeping the pointy end into the sea. You are more likely to lay beam on.


----------



## jrd22 (Nov 14, 2000)

Holy smoke, snapping a 3/4" line (Samson tensile strength 16,700lbs). Even with a reduction of that for a splice where the heck are you going to attach a bridle (other than Brent's method above) that can handle those loads? When that nylon line snaps I don't want to be anywhere near the cockpit if that's where it's attached, maybe not even anywhere on deck.


----------



## Ilenart (Jul 23, 2007)

Just wondering with your yacht's configeration whether you need a sea anchor to hove to? When I had my 45ft ketch I found it heaved to really nicely just using the mizzan sail. My memory of the Parleys suggested that they were quiet content to heave to without using the parachute, including some pretty rough weather. Jon Sanders would also heave to in force 10-12 just with using a tripple reefed main. I've also read other accounts of yachts heaving to in really bad conditions without deploying anything.

Make things a whole lot simplier if you do not need to deploy anything over the side.

Ilenart


----------



## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Ilenart said:


> Just wondering with your yacht's configeration whether you need a sea anchor to hove to? When I had my 45ft ketch I found it heaved to really nicely just using the mizzan sail. My memory of the Parleys suggested that they were quiet content to heave to without using the parachute, including some pretty rough weather. Jon Sanders would also heave to in force 10-12 just with using a tripple reefed main. I've also read other accounts of yachts heaving to in really bad conditions without deploying anything.
> 
> Make things a whole lot simplier if you do not need to deploy anything over the side.
> 
> Ilenart


I have never had to deploy the sea anchor and have been able to heave-to without it. The reason I have one is if I feel there may be the chance of being knocked down or broaching in a really bad approaching storm that is likely to create breaking waves high enough to be dangerous. Guess I've been lucky so far in avoiding being caught in this situation. Would like to hear from folks who have actually used their sea anchor in life-threatening conditions.

Brent, have you never had waves break into your cockpit repeatedly? I have had waves break over the cockpit in moderate conditions and have always thought it would be a really bad idea to put the stern to the sea in really bad conditions.


----------



## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

For those who have NOT purchased Lin & Larry Pardey's Storm Tactics I urge you to do so before venturing offshore. I've read it three times, and I personally, consider it a must read text book for bluewater sailing. I have taken a wave into the cockpit in a powerboat while running in following seas--it wasn't fun standing knee deep in ice-cold water and hoping the cockpit drains would not get the water out fast enough before the next wave hit.

One of the things I initially found difficult was obtaining that magical 50 degree angle to the seas without the boat making forward progress. A relatively small parachute anchor solved the problem when placed upon an adjustable bridle similar to the one used by the Pardeys. One that was achieved the breakdown of the seas that they described in their book appeared to take place. The wind was only about 18 to 20 knots so I was unable to test their heave-to process in horrendous conditions, and to be perfectly honest, I hope I NEVER have to do so. However, if I do, I'm fairly confident that it will work, and work well.

On one of the above posts, someone with a 41-foot boat talked of breaking a 3/4-inch bridle and using a 28-foot parachute. First and foremost, 28-feet of parachute seems a bit much for a 41-footer, but I could be wrong. I'm thinking something about half that size would be more than adequate when rigged in conjunction with a stay sail and hove-to. Additionally, I couldn't imagine any winch or cleat on my boat withstanding that much pressure without incurring significant damage to the deck fixtures. I suspect something was not rigged properly, but without being there I surely do not wish to pass judgement.

I sincerely believe the experience of others who were quoted in Storm Tactics is excellent testimony to how effective the Pardey's heave-to technique can be. Each time I read their book I picked up additional tips that I'm sure will be highly beneficial in the future.

All the best,

Gary


----------



## byr0n (Apr 6, 2009)

MedSailor said:


> Even though I've read between 2-300 sailing books by now, I've somehow missed one of the greats: Adlard Coles, "Heavy Weather Sailing." Reading it now and learning a great deal.
> 
> Personally I've always thought that, for my boat/crew/situation a parachute sea anchor will be the first line of defense for a survival storm if heaving-to is no longer a viable option.
> 
> On S/V Fairhaven, I have a wonderful/awful 8ft long bowsprit, with associated rigging, hanging off the pointy end of the boat. This presents challenges to figuring out the best place to lead a sea anchor from. Ideally I should choose a spot that is immensely strong, has a minimum of chafe, and will hold the boat at a good angle with the rode. See picture below.


I treat my parachute as an anchor through and through. The loads are relative to being anchored. The anchor is lashed on deck, chain stoved, and the rode is passed through the bow roller with chafing leathers at the roller. I have a padeye bedded heavily amidships located just behind the aft lowers for the block which the pennant leads through and makes its way to the winch in the cockpit. The pennant on the winch means I can adjust the boats angle of attack along with the tiller all from the cockpit. getting 50^-60^ off is an art form in ugly conditions 



MedSailor said:


> I have a bridle set up to the stem (blue arrow) that I use for my main anchor. It's great as it reduces the needed scope and is quite strong as it is attached to the bobstay attachment point. On my rig, the bobstay is the most loaded stay. This seems like a good possibility for leading the sea anchor. It might assist the bow rising over a wave due to it's low aspect, and the fitting is man-enough for the job, but every time I would be nose-down the line might chafe (or bend) on the bobstay and dolphin striker. Also the boat might yaw quite a lot as there is quite a bit of windage (furled headsail) forward of this point.


The line WILL chafe. Being in weather where the sea-anchor is required means usually you will be in it for 24 hours or more. This means regular trips forward to adjust for chafe (the biggest issue). getting your furling headsail off sounds like a fair bit of work but if you are in a mess bad enough to need to get the sea anchor out, you might consider just that (if you cant, wrap your spare halyard over the furled sail to prevent it from unfurling. Paying out enough rode and then using a bridle to pull the boat over 50^ ought to help as well.

Scope, scope, scope. Getting the parachute to ride the crests/troughs in sync with your vessel means minimizing the issues with the bobstay.



MedSailor said:


> The Anchor roller I have installed at the end of the sprit (green arrow) is pretty beefy but I have some doubts. It's 3/8 welded aluminum and uses a 5/8"stainless bolt to bolt the roller through the cranz fitting (the collar at the end of the bowsprit where all the rigging is attached) so it is, by way of the bolt, part of the rig. The lead would be free of chafe, except at the roller itself, but I worry it might try and pull the bow down, instead of helping it up as the lower point of attachment might do. Also being part of the rig means it's strong enough, but the way it attaches to that 5/8"bolt makes me worry it could shear off under huge loads.


This should be the same worry then for traditional anchoring? Does the described action happen when you you are lying at traditional anchor with comfortable scope?



MedSailor said:


> Lastly is the red arrow, pointing to the fairlead up forward. This is a bronze fitting through a hefty bulwark in the bow. Since it is part of the hull/deck, I expect it is man enough for the job. It might help hold the bow slightly off center as the fairlead isn't centered. On the other hand if the boat veers the other direction, the anchor lead will be chafing across, and trying to destroy, the bowsprit and it's rigging.
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> MedSailor


Bow-on is uncomfortable (for me). When you say "veering" do you mean "tacking" (and in turn are you carrying a strorm tri or bare poles with the anchor) or just rounding and falling off every few mins?

Surfing can be generally managed with the Pardeys method of a control line to the winch, allowing you to find the sweet spot for quartering (and is the way I manage the parachute).

If the boat is yawing/veering whatever you need to get some control over that via the helm, trisail and anchor. quartering is where the comfort and safety is for me...YMMV


----------



## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

G'day Bry0n, I love your sig. 

Lets talk loads:

I would have thought that parachute loads would be the same as anchoring loads but everything I read is contrary to that. Not sure exactly why that's the case as both are loads created by wind and waves while laying to an anchor..... best guess I have as to why the para-loads are higher is that I normally try and drop the regular anchor far far away from 40' breaking waves. 

In any case, all the research, tank testing etc seem to think that the parachute loads will be 10-15% of displacement and will likely reach up to 60-70% of the boat's total displacement. The US coast guard's drogue tests are a good source of info for this. 

As far as the pardey bridle, it does sound like the solution to the uncomfortable pitching, rolling, and yawing, that most report from laying to a bow-only parachute anchor. I'm quite concerned about Adlard Coles's assertion that the bridle will take the heavier load of the two lines and may well be too high to be effective at all with larger boats. I know from my climbing days that if you make a bridle of lines with an angle of greater than 120deg you INCREASE the load on each arm of the bridle over what it would have been without. 

I suppose the best option for me might be to arrange the parachute anchor in such a way that I don't NEED the bridle for it to function (ie to keep it away from bowsprit gear) but arrange a massive bridle that I can use anyway. If it breaks it breaks. 

Yes Fairhaven does tack and sail at anchor due to all the windage up front. She did this without a furler, but more so now. At anchor I keep her head to wind by keeping the mizzen up. Pretty sure the mizzen would die a quick death if used to keep me head to wind. 

All that windage up front, and fairhaven's willingness to tack at anchor, may be leveraged to keep her bow off the wind without a bridle. I'll have to experiment with my rope rode and anchor setup next time I'm out. I'll set the anchor from the nose, from the stem, and I'll try setting it from a fairlead. Perhaps there's a rudder setting that will keep me "hove to" to an anchor. 


Does anyone think attaching a line at the stem fitting at the water line is a good idea? 

Also I agree with the comments that for a boat like mine I may not need the chute at all. Heaving to will definately be first, second, and third line of defense. Ideally though I'd like the chute option for if the mizzen gets blown up, or if heaving to just isn't an option for some reason. Nice to have options yaknow

MedSailor


----------



## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Agree absolutely that many options for each situation need to be known and available, meaning equipment ready and knowledge to use it. The size of the chute is important according to manufacturers. I believe they are supposed to "give" a bit so that undue stress is not put on hardware. It seems that this slippage would also tend to counter the tendency to swing around the anchor. With 2-300' of 3/4" line, there is also a much greater horizontal scope from anchor to boat than you would ever have on a regular anchor. Also, backing the jib as done sometimes when heaving-to will keep the bow from getting on the other side of the wind. I really think that once a balance has been achieved and the boat is in its own slick that minor adjustments will be all that is necessary along with adjusting lines for chafe every few hours.

Unfortunately none of this stuff can really be practiced. I, for one am not going out in a tropical storm to test the gear! You can know the mechanics and know precisely what procedures to follow but there is no substitute for the real thing. As has been demonstrated with every procedure, there are almost always unforeseen surprises.


----------



## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

smurphny said:


> _Storm Tactics_ suggests that either port or starboard tack should be chosen as the conditions dictate regarding sea room and likely storm path. The main anchor line should run through the place where it will chafe least. On my boat it is through the standard hefty old fairleads on either side of the bow, about 18" back from the bow roller (which I would NOT trust). *The secondary line, run from the stern somewhere and attached to the main line via a snatch block, serves to haul the anchor line aft so that it prevents the boat from tacking.*


If I ever run into Larry Pardey, I'm gonna ask him how they get a snatch block to work in such an application...

After reading of his suggestion to use a snatch block years ago, I decided to give it a whirl with a similar style anchor bridle, which I often use in open roadstead anchorages in places like the Bahamas, in order to keep the boat head-to whatever swell might be wrapping around into the anchorage... The pic shows such a bridle deployed in the anchorage in Baracoa, Cuba - a very rolly anchorage, which would be miserable in prevailing conditions without using a bridle...










Using the snatch block as per the Pardey's suggestion, I found it impossible to maintain a steady angle, as the snatch block kept wanting to "ride" one way or the other along the anchor rode, and thus changing the length of the two "legs" of the bridle... As ineffective as it was in such relatively benign conditions, I cannot imagine it being anything more than worthless while attempting to lie to a parachute, offshore, in a blow... Perhaps it somehow works fine with a Bristol Channel Cutter, but I'm certainly missing the necessary magic to make it work with a boat such as mine...

IMHO, the midships bridle line must be attached to the main road at a point that will remain fixed, and then by controlling the length of the secondary line running to a cockpit winch, one maintains/adjusts the angle of the boat to the seas... At least, that's the only way I've ever managed to get it to work reliably...

As to the use of a parachute in general, I'd be curious to know what Mr. Adlard Coles' impression would have been, had he lived long enough to ever have had experience with a Series Drogue... I'm guessing he might have been favorably impressed... Most everyone who has used one appears to be, including Peter Bruce, who has edited the current editions of HEAVY WEATHER SAILING, in the wake of Mr. Coles' passing...


----------



## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

JohnEisberg,

I LOVE your idea of practicing the bridle method at anchor. I will definitely try that next time I get a chance. I've been known to row out a stern or kedge anchor in order to avoid ferry wakes or other rollers. Your idea looks much better for making a rolly anchorage more comfortable and had the advantage of practicing a storm tactic to boot. Great suggestion!

I have always wondered the same thing about the Pardey Bridle. Seems to me like it would slide down against the hull. The solution I have in my head, is to depoly the sea anchor on a long rope rode (I have a 400footer I would use) that is attacked to my main anchor chain. An amount of anchor chain would be payed out from the boat. This would eliminate (mostly) the major issue of chafe on a rope rode. Also, having chain at the boat end of the sea anchor rode would allow you a fixed point to shackle (or otherwise secure) your bridle line. 

Actually, since many sea anchor proponents recommend a length of chain at the boat end, I don't see why the main anchor chain isn't used more often. It seems like you could let out a few hundred feet of chain, rather than just a few feet, and it would aid in keeping the anchor sunk and allow you to adjust your wave/rode length as needed for your wave period. 

MedSailor


----------



## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

I would think in a heavy blow that the snatch block would be fairly stable and only ride forward or aft with a significant change in the pressure applied to the parachute. I did not that he found a huge difference in the volume of water with only a relatively small change in parachute size. For example, in the book he talked about the volume doubling when increasing diameter from 8 to 12-feet. Also he talked of the effectiveness with different lengths of the anchor rode and said it was imperative to get the parachute out to at least the second trough. I read another book where the author added a 10-foot length of chain, which placed the parachute about 20 feet below the surface, which decreased the amount of turbulence on the chute. As Pardey point out, this is NOT an exact science, the you'll have to experiment a bit to get the right combination and best results. He also pointed out that during a 70-MPH blow that lasted 3 days he was accompanied by a couple large, container ships that also hove to during the storm and incurred no significant damage. One of the larger sailboats, a 76-footer, tried to outrun the storm and attempted to take refuge behind a reef. The boat suffered a 90-degree knockdown, several crew members were injured and the boat was nearly destroyed. Like I said previously, I'm going to do my best to avoid these conditions. 

Good Luck,

Gary 8)


----------



## hinayana (Jan 30, 2012)

Perhaps some additional reading might be:

1. Tartan association site- which has posts by Russ Comb of Hygelig and his
experiences with being hove-to in a storm, using para tech anchors and drogues (including the loss of one).

T27Owners : Tartan 27 Owners Yahoo Group

2. James Baldwin discusses parachutes on his Atom site.

3. The loss of the boat Puffin off of New Caledonia and the owner's
first hand experience as expressed in an archived letter to Latitude 38.

Changes in Latitudes


----------



## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

That's a great picture! Looks like everyone is on a "Bahamian moor" to keep bows into the swell. I think the snatch block part of the rig is one of those things that can really only be tested in a great amount of steady wind so that the forces are continual. It seems to make sense that if a block intersects the anchor rode anywhere in front of the bow that it will slide to a point of equilibrium when tightened; form a triangle with intersect, bow attachment, and cockpit attachment as the corners. By changing the length of the cockpit line, the angle of the boat relative to the wind would change. Geometrically, it works in theory.

Boat design, of course has a lot to do with whether any of the idea works. It's likely that boats that heave-to easily will probably work better with this "enhanced heaving-to."

Would be nice to actually deploy the sea anchor on a snotty day but the prospect of trying to get it back in and the clean-up and repacking have always squelched the idea. If actually used, I'd try to sit it out until the seas calmed back down to retrieve it.


----------



## billyruffn (Sep 21, 2004)

MedSailor said:


> Biliruf,
> 
> What gear did you choose for your bridle? What is your boat's displacement?
> 
> MedSailor


I have a 16 ft para by Fiorentino Fiorentino ParaAnchor - manufacturers of sea anchors and parachute anchors and storm droguesto be deployed on a 450 ft 7/8" braided nylon rode. The bridle was supplied by Fiorentino and I can't remember the size -- probably something on the order of 3/4" braid.

BR displaces 24 tons loaded for sea.

Re. the Coles book and the 28 ft para anchor -- that seems pretty big for a boat that size. I went with Forentino's recommendation and ended up with a 16 ft anchor for a boat of roughly the same size and 1/2 the displacement. I think that a 28 ft anchor would probably fully stop the boat and in a big blow that means that the rode would take all the strain, much as it would if it were anchored to the sea bed. I think the idea is to have the boat slowly moving backward while maintaining a safe angle of attack to wind/seas. In Coles' time I think many people used surplus military parachutes for sea anchors and that may be why the boat in question had one of 28ft diameter.

A smaller diameter para anchor should place less strain on the rode and bridle. Also, you can use the anchor with sail up and hove-to. This might also take some strain off the rode/bridle.


----------



## beej67 (Apr 2, 2008)

MedSailor said:


> Personally I've always thought that, for my boat/crew/situation a parachute sea anchor will be the first line of defense for a survival storm if heaving-to is no longer a viable option.
> 
> (...)
> Thoughts?


After doing quite a bit of research on the same topic, I've decided that parachute sea anchors suck, because if you don't have the right amount of rode paid out to exactly match the period of the waves, it's going to jerk your boat to pieces. And even if you do get it matched up right so you're rising when your anchor rises and falling when your anchor falls, what happens if the wind shifts or the period changes? The much better option is a "series drogue," because you get the same anchor force but it's distributed along the line. I believe most series drogues are intended to be attached at the stern.

These guys have some videos:

Jordan Series Drogue

I have no personal experience with either, and I hear that trying to reel a series drogue in can be a real bastard once it's deployed, but I'll be trying the latter before the former.


----------



## Boasun (Feb 10, 2007)

Where to attach the seaAnchor rode? That depends on how well you get along with your "in-laws" and your ner-do well cousins.


----------



## gershel (Feb 4, 2001)

beej67 said:


> After doing quite a bit of research on the same topic, I've decided that parachute sea anchors suck, because if you don't have the right amount of rode paid out to exactly match the period of the waves, it's going to jerk your boat to pieces.
> RESEARCH?? What kind of "reasearch" did you do?? Consult with other people on the internet that did the same kind of "reasearch" as you?? Advertisements from vendors?
> When you're anchored firmly in a blow, does your boat get jerked to pieces?
> When you're on a mooring in a blow does your boat get jerked to pieces?
> ...


----------



## beej67 (Apr 2, 2008)

You mad bro?


> What kind of "reasearch" did you do??


Read a bunch of personal accounts of people who had problems with sea anchors, then learned about wave motion to figure out why.


> When you're anchored firmly in a blow, does your boat get jerked to pieces?


"anchored firmly" is a very loose term when we're talking about a parachute that's moving in circles in one ocean swell, and my boat is bobbing up and down on another ocean swell two swells down. Please clarify it, thanks.

If you mean "anchored firmly to the ocean floor while my boat bobs in 20 foot seas," I can happily say I've never been forced to endure such a thing, and if I had, I can imagine it might jerk my boat about quite a bit.


> When you're on a mooring in a blow does your boat get jerked to pieces?


I wasn't aware moorings existed out in the middle of the ocean where you might experience 20+ foot swells during a hurricane, and if such things did exist, I would be wary of tying up to them, for fear I get my boat jerked to pieces. Maybe you've had a different experience you'd like to share?

Now, in my boat, if I'm in less than 12 foot seas, there's no point in deploying a sea anchor anyway. I'm sailing it. The point of a sea anchor, as I understand it, is to deploy something, batten down, and go below if you get hit by a small to medium sized hurricane and you're too far to run for shore. Right? For that, you need to plan on 20 foot swells or more. When tied up to a parachute sea anchor in 20 foot swells, you need to understand something about how wave motion works. When a wave moves, the molecules that make up the wave don't actually move themselves except in a big circle. Read this:

Motion in the Sea -- Waves

So if you have your rode panned out to the wrong length, you can end up in a situation where your boat goes one way and your parachute goes the other way, once per wave, jerking your rode tight. Then in the trough it goes slack again as you and the parachute come together. Once per wave. I've read several personal accounts of people who didn't get this right when deploying in a hurricane, and they had to cut the damn thing loose. You don't have that problem with a series drogue, because the resistance to motion is distributed all along the length instead of at one spot at the other end.

I've also read some other accounts of people who are experienced at using parachute sea anchors, most notably commercial fishermen from New England where the practice is common, and they pay a lot of attention to how far out to pay their rode so they match the wave period. They will also reel it in or let it out if the conditions change. Seems like a certainly smart and prudent thing to do, that I just don't want to have to fool with if I'm just choosing among emergency gear.

What storms have you deployed a parachute sea anchor in, and what were the conditions? Did you pay attention to the wave period when you deployed it?


----------



## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

I must say that this is an interesting and thought-provoking discussion. I have all the gear but have never deployed it anger (I suspect getting the parchute back might be a pretty big task since even when conditions moderate it may still be blowing 30 knots.

Couple of notes:
- I think the size of the parachute matters. You don't want to be stopped, you do want to slide sideways. We have an 18' chute for a 36,000 lb boat. This was bought by the first owner and is the recommended size for the boat. Too big and it might act as too much of a brake and increase the loads on everything.
- Jon, my sense is that being anchored and using a midship bridle is not the same, dynamically, as doing it with a parachute since the entire system - boat and sea anchor rig is free too move sideways rather than being tied to a point in space. Also, according to the pictures and diagrams in the Pardey's boat there is a considerable amount of force on the bridle so the angle in the main line is significant, reducing the ability of the snatch block to slide forward and back too much. I get the impression that the purpose of the snatch block is mainly to reduce the potential for chafe.


----------



## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

beej67, Interesting piece on wave characteristics. It's a good explanation of why placement of the chute in the same relative wave position of the boat is important. Another good reason to have a drogue would be to just set a jib and get some sleep if singlehanded in non-life threatening conditions but those that would otherwise require being at the wheel. I have a windvane but it is least reliable on a dead run and especially if surfing down the face of waves. I can definitely see the use for a drogue in that situation: 15' following sea, steady 20 knot wind, the kind of situation making a long passage in Trade Winds where you don't want to stop completely. The other advantage I see in a series drogue is its simplicity as compared to all the things to go wrong in a chute system. Will have to think about making a drogue to keep on board in addition to the sea anchor. I have a pattern somewhere to make the cones. They are actually pretty simple.

Thinking about dragging a drogue, I wonder if big bitey things will come up to take a nip? I know it' s a problem with dragging generator props or pretty much anything that can be mistaken for a meal. Would be an interesting to have a 500# shark grab a 3/4" line attached to your cleat.


----------



## beej67 (Apr 2, 2008)

Well, the replacement for the parachute sea anchor isn't a regular drogue, it's one of these "series drogues" they have nowadays, basically thirty drogues on a long line with a chain at the end to weight it down in the water. Effectively, the only thing the chute really does for you from a scientific standpoint is provide drag. Thirty little chutes can provide drag just like one big one can, but if they're distributed all along the rode then the rode never 'snaps.' 

I'd love to hear some first hand experience from a sailor who'd used both. All I can relay is what I've heard/read, which is limited because people don't typically choose to put themselves in the middle of hurricanes to test these things out. The one major drawback I've heard about series drogues is that since there's no float at the end, when the storm is over the dang thing hangs under your boat and it's a huge pain in the rear to haul it back in.


----------



## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

killarney_sailor said:


> - Jon, my sense is that being anchored and using a midship bridle is not the same, dynamically, as doing it with a parachute since the entire system - boat and sea anchor rig is free too move sideways rather than being tied to a point in space. Also, according to the pictures and diagrams in the Pardey's boat there is a considerable amount of force on the bridle so the angle in the main line is significant, reducing the ability of the snatch block to slide forward and back too much. I get the impression that the purpose of the snatch block is mainly to reduce the potential for chafe.


You could be right, but my sense in my limited experimentation, was that the snatch block tended to ride one way or the other along the main rode as soon as there was any change in the conditions... I could have things aligned fairly well for a certain wind strength, but as soon as a stronger gust would put more pressure on my two furlers forward, the bow would be pushed down slightly, and the snatch block would tend to slide further down the rode.... Quickly, the delicate balance would be lost, and the boat would soon wanting to ride, effectively, stern or quarter-to...

I can only imagine in the chaotic environment of a blow offshore, that tendency might only be exacerbated... Never having tried it, however, I could be wrong... (grin)

One thing lying to a bridle at anchor will make you quickly appreciate, however, is how noticeably the load on the primary rode is increased by presenting your boat in such an attitude to wind, seas, or current... It's one thing to sit in a place like the open roadstead at Rum Cay for 5 days, lying to a bridle in 25-30 knots... Offshore, in storm force conditions, would be a whole different ballgame, especially if you weren't to manage the perfect leeward drift, and resultant slick created to windward...

That's one of the biggest arguments in favor of a drag device such as a series droque, IMHO... The loads on deck gear can be minimized, and with the use of a bridle as Don Jordan recommended shackled to dedicated strong points on each quarter, the issue of chafe can be virtually eliminated... Not to mention, every thing can be tended from the cockpit, having to take regular trips to the pointy end in storm conditions to adjust things and check for chafe could get old pretty quickly, seems to me...

At any rate, in my experience, fixing the secondary bridle line to the main rode works like a charm, very easy to fine tune the boat's attitude using a cockpit winch, and one certainly should be able to attach one line to another without creating a major chafe issue...


----------



## Flybyknight (Nov 5, 2005)

MedSailor said:


> If the anchor is of sufficient size there should be little load on the rudder as *there is little drift backwards*. Correspondingly though, the loads on the line and bridle are massive.
> MedSailor


In a 40 knot blow!
You have never been out in one, now have you.


----------



## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

i have friends who have used a series drogue and they were very pleased with the results, but that was in 40-45 knots so I can't comment on efficacy in nastier stuff. I seem to remember that they had something like 120 cones for a heavy 38' steel cutter.


----------



## Lake Superior Sailor (Aug 23, 2011)

Picking up 120 cones wouldn't be so bad! least you be alive to do the picking!...Dale


----------



## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Flybyknight said:


> In a 40 knot blow!
> You have never been out in one, now have you.


Thank you for your useless comment, which doesn't appear to have added anything to the discussion. I'm assuming, based on your highlighting, that you are challenging the assertion that a boat won't move backwards significantly with a parachute anchor set.

Based on my readings from the Pardeys, and all the first hand accounts from the DDDB and Adlard Coles book there indeed is very little strain on the rudder and little movement aft with a parachute appropriately sized and appropriately deployed.

Typical drift rates for a boat in a storm or hurricane laying to a parachute are 0.5-1.5knots. Does that sound like enough to damage a rudder?If your parachute is undersized I would expect drift aft and damage, but not for a correctly sized one. Here's a thought experiment for you. Imagine a 500foot diameter parachute sea anchor, tied to a 21ft boat in a storm. Now do you think it'll drift back severely and damage the rudder? Scale down the same thought experiment and use the correct size of parachute and you have a regular yacht, such as mine.

To directly answer your question, yes I have been out in a 40kt blow where a parachute was deployed, winds 25-35 gusting in the 40s and we did deploy a sea anchor. Care you share your first hand experience?

Not sure why I responded to that.....
MedSailor


----------



## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

smurphny said:


> beej
> 
> Thinking about dragging a drogue, *I wonder if big bitey things will come up to take a nip? I know it' s a problem with dragging generator props *or pretty much anything that can be mistaken for a meal. Would be an interesting to have a 500# shark grab a 3/4" line attached to your cleat.


I've heard that repeatedly over the years, but I'm wondering if there isn't a bit of urban myth to that one - perhaps from people simply looking for an excuse not to bother with a towing generator? (grin)

First of all, they are pretty rare out there, hardly anyone uses them, in my observation... I've towed a spinner for thousands of miles offshore, have never noticed any "bite marks", and my only loss of one was due to my own stupidity, passing up-current of a large fishing buoy in crossing the Bay of Fundy... The 2 other people I personally know who've used them, one has used his on a passage from Oz to Chile, the other on 3 transatlantics, neither has had one stolen by a shark...

In each year's debrief of the ARC by one of the Brit boating rags on gear that works, water generators repeatedly score very highly, and I can't recall any significant mention of loss due to "predators"... One of my favorite pieces of gear, I'm mystified why more passagemakers don't use them (walking the docks prior to the Caribbean 1500 this year, I didn't see a _single_ towing generator rigged on anyone's stern, though I suppose some boats could have had them stowed at that time. I tend to doubt it, however - water generators don't seem to go hand-in-hand with a dozen jerry jugs of diesel lashed to the rail (grin)) But, I can't help but wonder whether it's due to the fact that some folks out there just "know" that losing those props to big, hungry creatures is a real problem... (grin)


----------



## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

I suppose the Jordan Series Drogue should enter the discussion here, though as far as I know it's generally considered an active, rather than passive technique. i.e. you need to be steering, and standing in the cockpit (with stern to the waves) in order for this system to work. The Coast Guard does recommend streaming JSD from the stern unattended, though I haven't heard of that nearly as much as using a JSD or other drogue as part of an active steering tactic. If that is a sound tactic, then I would seriously consider it.

I would also consider more cones than recommended in order to make a drift stopping device (same function as a sea anchor), rather than slowing device, which could be streamed from bow or stern.

I have a hard time with the idea of streaming a drag device from the stern in breaking waves, without steering, though. It just seems intuitive to me that the bow is what's designed to go into, and safely over, waves. The stern, not so much. I would also argue against the point made that when streaming a JSD from the stern that tending it from the cockpit is an advantage over going forward to tend a para-anchror. In both cases you're going towards the end of the boat with oncoming waves. The companionway hatch (look at the picture in my avatar) would also be a point of potential vulnerability, whereas my bow has no vulnerable structures and has more freeboard as well as being "pointy" and possessing sheer to direct wave forces away from the boat.

The series drogue tests by the coast guard (which make excellent reading) argue against deploying a JSD up forward, and don't think much of parachutes for the same reason. While I'm inclinded to trust their test and methods, I still have a hard time understanding how it is fundamentally better, by boat design, to present your stern to waves rather than the bow. Where's Bob Perry when you need him....

Here's what the coast guard's series drogue test has to say on the matter (notice that they estimate the drogue's loads to be between 60-100% of the boat's displacement) not any lighter than a sea anchor.:

Link to Coast Guard report HERE:
http://seriesdrogue.com/coastguardreport/droguereport.htm
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_6.4 Boat Design
Back Forward Index

With a drogue deployed, a well-designed and properly constructed fibreglass boat should be capable of riding through a Fastnet type storm with no structural damage. Model tests indicate that the loads on the hull and rigging in a breaking wave strike should not be excessive.

There are three areas that require special attention:

The attachment fittings for the bridle of the drogue towline at the corners of the transom must be capable of carrying 70% of the towline design load. For a 7500 lb. displacement boat each fitting must be capable of carrying 5300 lbs. Many yachts are equipped with a Genoa track which runs aft to the transom. Such a structure, which distributes load along the hull, could be provided with a special eye at the transom for attaching the bridle.
If the nylon towline is led through a chock instead of attaching directly to an eye, experience suggests that chafing may occur even with good chafing gear installed. Consideration should be given to the use of a short length of wire cable running through a stainless steel chock before attaching to the nylon line.

Many sailors are reluctant to deploy a drogue from the stern because they fear that the boat may suffer structural damage if the breaking wave strikes the flat transom, the cockpit and the companionway doors. The model tests do not show this to be a serious problem. The boat is accelerated up to wave speed and the velocity of the breaking crest is not high relative to the boat. The stern is actually more buoyant than the bow, and will rise with the wave. However, the boat may be swept from the stern. The cockpit may f ill and moving water may strike the companionway doors. The structural strength of the transom, the cockpit floor and seat, and the companionway doors should be checked at a loading corresponding to a water jet velocity of approximately 15 ft./sec.

When a boat is riding to a drogue no action is required of the crew. The cockpit may not be habitable and the crew should remain in the cabin with the companionway closed. In a severe wave strike the linear and angular acceleration of the boat may be high. Safety straps designed for a load of at least 4g should be provided for crew restraint. All heavy objects in the cabin should be firmly secured for negative accelerations and drawers and lockers should be provided with latches or ties which will not open even with significant distortion of the hull structure
_
AND:
_6.6 Sea Anchor Deployed from the Bow
Back Forward Index

The foregoing recommendations and discussion apply to a drogue deployed from the stern rather than a sea anchor deployed from the bow. A large sea anchor would be required to hold the bow of a modern yacht into the wind and sea in a survival storm. The required diameter of the cone or chute would be 2 or 3 times the diameter shown on Figure 25. The design load would be 50 to 100% greater than that shown on Figure 26. Even with a large sea anchor the bow of a modern yacht will tend to yaw away from the wind when the towline goes slack as it will when the boat passes through the trough of the wave. For these reasons the use of a sea anchor deployed from the bow is not recommended._

MedSailor


----------



## gershel (Feb 4, 2001)

Have a look at this. This guy did some interesting work with a para-anchor on his small catamaran in Australian waters

KatieKat ParaAnchor Index


----------



## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

smurphny said:


> I have never had to deploy the sea anchor and have been able to heave-to without it. The reason I have one is if I feel there may be the chance of being knocked down or broaching in a really bad approaching storm that is likely to create breaking waves high enough to be dangerous. Guess I've been lucky so far in avoiding being caught in this situation. Would like to hear from folks who have actually used their sea anchor in life-threatening conditions.
> 
> Brent, have you never had waves break into your cockpit repeatedly? I have had waves break over the cockpit in moderate conditions and have always thought it would be a really bad idea to put the stern to the sea in really bad conditions.


I've never had waves break into my cockpit repeatedly, at least not that I've been aware of , at least not at sea. In a gale, I stay out of the cockpit, and sleep a lot. With a transom stern, and lots of stern buoyancy, this is no problem . It is far more likely with a double ender, with little stern buoyancy. If they choose to break there, no problem. Why would I even worry about it.The only time they broke repeatedly in the cockpit was in Nanaimo harbour, when a small but super intense storm blew thru . I was tied to a dock at the time.


----------



## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

Lying at an angle to the wind puts a far greater load on any rode than lying stern to the wind. A bridle on a stern drogue leads to to rolling when the wind eases. Lying with one quarter to the wind, the windage on the rig takes a lot of the roll out, and is easier to deploy. 
I made up a gale rider out of car seat belts , but haven't tried it yet. Friends , in a Fraser 41 , riding the Queens Birthday Storm out of New Zealand , found their Gale rider worked best 80 ft behind the boat, far better than with a much longer rode. 
A client sailing one of my 36 ft twin keelers into Valdiva, Chile, said he found the series drogue far easier to recover than he had ever imagined.


----------



## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

MedSailor said:


> I suppose the Jordan Series Drogue should enter the discussion here, though as far as I know it's generally considered an active, rather than passive technique. _ i.e. you need to be steering, _and standing in the cockpit (with stern to the waves) in order for this system to work. The Coast Guard does recommend streaming JSD from the stern unattended, though I haven't heard of that nearly as much as using a JSD or other drogue as part of an active steering tactic. If that is a sound tactic, then I would seriously consider it.


Not sure why you assume that... In my singular experimentation with a JSD, steering would have made little to no difference whatsoever... It was possible to modify the course from DDW slightly using my vane, but basically the boat is tethered to this giant bungee, and the effect of that is far more determinative than most steering inputs will be...



MedSailor said:


> I have a hard time with the idea of streaming a drag device from the stern in breaking waves, without steering, though. It just seems intuitive to me that the bow is what's designed to go into, and safely over, waves. The stern, not so much. I would also argue against the point made that when streaming a JSD from the stern that tending it from the cockpit is an advantage over going forward to tend a para-anchror. In both cases you're going towards the end of the boat with oncoming waves. The companionway hatch (look at the picture in my avatar) would also be a point of potential vulnerability, whereas my bow has no vulnerable structures and has more freeboard as well as being "pointy" and possessing sheer to direct wave forces away from the boat.
> 
> MedSailor


Ahh, ye of little faith, in your vessel's ability to have her stern rise to a following sea... (grin)

Granted, I have not used a series drogue in a strong gale or storm conditions, only gave it a whirl in about 25-30 knots, max, 8-10 foot seas or thereabouts... However, that one experiment was a revelation, similar to heaving-to in that the result was like throwing a switch, in how significant was the resultant "calming effect", and restoration of the sense of control...

The "bungee effect" is absolutely the best way to describe what's happening. As the stern rises to meet the following seas, the boat naturally will begin its normal acceleration down the face of the wave. But that is very modest, and is immediately checked by the drogue, and the alignment roughly perpendicular to the wave is also established... In my few hours lying to my drogue, never once was there the slightest hint that anything remotely resembling a "screaming broach" could occur - in the relatively modest conditions at the time, of course...

Of course, in extreme conditions, the possibility of seas breaking into the cockpit are very real, but any boat venturing offshore should be prepared for such an eventuality, in any case... But overall, the sort of impacts felt, the boat's tendency to ride with the seas, and the more modest loads on deck gear than I believe would be felt lying to a parachute in identical conditions, IMHO strongly recommend the use of a series drogue... Not to mention, the possibility of deploying it without any real concern for dealing with chafe is huge, IMHO - there's much to be said for "set it, and forget it", in such conditions... That's not to suggest that there might not be a time where one might have to consider another alternative, of course... but, if you have the sea room, it's a very effective device in my admittedly limited experience...

And, as Brent mentions, while the retrieval is a PITA, it was not nearly the chore that I was expecting it to be... On something like a 50-footer, of course, that could be a whole different ballgame...


----------



## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

*I feel like I'm about to be converted....*

I feel like I'm about to be converted.....

Thanks for the thoughtful replies so far. I spent a few hours today on my boat contemplating her lines and her beautiful hiney. I'm starting to think there may be something to the JSD idea.....

For starters it finally hit me that the bridle is actually quite a significant difference. If the boat were to yaw one way or the other, the 11ft wide bridle would have a strong turning force, keeping the boat going straight down the wave. The sea anchor from the bow, on the other hand, would allow the bow to yaw quite a bit before beginning to exert a turning force. If the boat is allowed to present anything other than a bow or stern to the wind and waves, the forces increase dramatically. Even for those accounts I read from the DDDB who used a parachute successfully say that the motion was horrific. The bridle from the bow (Pardey method) may involve too exotic a setup and loads that I couldn't easily handle with my cockpit winches. (Anyone know if a Lewmar 44 can take 25,000lbs???)

The lack of chafe is a big deal, as mentioned by John Eisberg, especially on my boat. That was the whole reason for my question and diagram in the first place. All that hardware up the front is not very compatible with 30,000lb loads and sea-saw motions on rope. Today, as I was contemplating things, I had a horrible vision of that bow getting blown off during a slack in the para-anchor rode, then the rode coming under tension across the bowsprit. That kind of cross-load might likely remove the bowsprit, which is also attached to the rig. 

My cockpit has excellent drainage and very little volume. A good combination to present to the sea for potential filling. The aft end of my cabin is vertical, which is not an ideal shape to present to a breaking wave, but it is made of 1-1/4" plywood with glass over the top. I'd have to massively beef up my companionway door, but I could do that.

So if I were to make strong points aft for the bridle, would I want them up high to exert an downward force on the stern to keep the bow from burying itself at the bottom of the wave, or would it be better to have them low, near the waterline, where they would allow the stern to rise as freely as possible and reduce the chances of being pooped?

I also like the fact that I could make a JSD by myself. Seems like a good thing to do with the dacron from a retired sail, and some bulk amsteel. 
Make your own JSD (they don't leave anything out in this video):





Yeah, I think this idea is catching on with me....

MedSailor


----------



## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

JonEisberg said:


> Ahh, ye of little faith, in your vessel's ability to have her stern rise to a following sea... (grin)


Maybe you're right. I have much more stern boyancy than this fellow.

A video speaks 10,000 words.....Anita im Orkan - YouTube

Medsailor


----------



## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

MedSailor said:


> I feel like I'm about to be converted.....
> 
> Thanks for the thoughtful replies so far. I spent a few hours today on my boat contemplating her lines and her beautiful hiney. I'm starting to think there may be something to the JSD idea.....
> 
> ...


Yes. Ditto on that. Thank you for the opinions. My boat actually has two very beefy, well bolted pad eyes just aft of the winches, right on the edge of the gunwale that were very possibly used for attaching a bridle/drogue by a previous owner. Looks like another good winter project to sew up a bunch of cones. At least if the sea anchor should fail I'll have another option. Am wondering if Amsteel/Dyneema is the right stuff. It's awful slippery to haul in and it may be better to have some stretch, maybe using standard 3/4" nylon.


----------



## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

You can tell I have way too much time on my hands but have been thinking about the construction of some kind of drogue. All the little cones on the series drogues are very nice and I'm sure they do a great job, have been studied, engineered, etc. but I wonder if there is a simpler way, somewhere in between an old tire and another $1000.00 contraption. How much different, from a hydraulic point of view are all the little cones as opposed to a series of half hitches (locked by stitching) with some sort of plastic disks, maybe 5" in diameter cut from old sheetrock buckets or something, slid on in between knots? Each would grab a little bit of water and add up just like the time consuming cones.


----------



## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

I have been told that a reversed transom greatly increases the odds of waves boarding into the cockpit. I stick to a traditional transom rake.
I have used tyres with the top half cut out , leaving the wire core as a kind of bridle, as drogues. Turning them inside out widens them. You can chain several of them together. The beauty of this is they are almost indestructible, and you can find them anywhere, before making a long, rough passage. This means not having to carry them aboard in benign latitudes.


----------



## beej67 (Apr 2, 2008)

smurphny said:


> You can tell I have way too much time on my hands but have been thinking about the construction of some kind of drogue. All the little cones on the series drogues are very nice and I'm sure they do a great job, have been studied, engineered, etc. but I wonder if there is a simpler way, somewhere in between an old tire and another $1000.00 contraption. How much different, from a hydraulic point of view are all the little cones as opposed to a series of half hitches (locked by stitching) with some sort of plastic disks, maybe 5" in diameter cut from old sheetrock buckets or something, slid on in between knots? Each would grab a little bit of water and add up just like the time consuming cones.


Who knows?

I met a guy who got caught in a blow and faked together a poor mans series drogue out of all of his spare line, his pots and pans, and all his spare foul weathere gear. Swore it worked. I considered him to be a loon at the time, but it's honestly hard to say. It's a simple concept, just distribute drag along a line.


----------



## svCookie (Apr 18, 2012)

Concerning the retrieval of a JDS: Could you not rig a small line that is 10 or 15 feet longer than the drogue itself and attach it to the trailing end of the drogue? It could even be spliced in the trailing end and at one of the boat end bridal points. Using this method you are pulling in the drogue from the far end with the cones closed. Just a thought.


----------



## beej67 (Apr 2, 2008)

What's the chance that your retrieval line fouls the cones while it's deployed?


----------



## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

If the drogue were deployed from a bridle, and the retrieval line were attached to an outboard, stern cleat, and the line was same length as the drogue, I would think the chances of entanglement would be slim to none. 

Cheers,

Gary


----------

