# Simrad vs. Ray Marine under-deck autopilots?



## Pub911 (Oct 25, 2007)

Some say Simrad's hydraulic cylinders are less likely to fail vs. gear-driven units like the ones Raytheon and others make. I'm considering Simrad AP16 with the HLD350 drive unit. Any comments on the statement or on Simrad products in general?


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## artbyjody (Jan 4, 2008)

I have an older Simrad unit (WP series) - but it has been pretty rock solid and if I ever upgrade I would probably stick with the brand. Their customer support is pretty top notch as well, and asking a tech question concerning - out of warranty - equipment is handled with no problems.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

I'm one of those who agrees with the statement having cruised with both! Your choice is a good one for your boat and LIS.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

*I've..*

I've owned both brands in (below deck units) and they both performed well and both had no problems.

The Raymarine did do slightly better down wind but all the newer units perform so much better these days than my older units that I bet it's apples to apples these days performance wise..

On my current boat I have a Raymarine S1 wheel pilot and it actually out steers both of my older units by a good margin but this is due to the newer computer chips and more sensors like the rudder position sensor. Below deck units are also more robust than WP's!!

Raymarine has come a long way with their tech support in recent years compared to how bad they used to be and Simrad has never been bad and remained more consistent IMHO...


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## gc1111 (May 13, 2004)

My experience with the Simrad HLD drive unit has been that it needs rebuilding every second or third year. And the customer service on Long Island, NY is as poor as any marine outfit I have had contact with. Their expense for a rebuild would buy another drive unit. I am seriously considering converting to a mechanical unit.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Consider ComNav and W-H as alternatives worthy of comparision.

Hydraulic is definitely the best course, but is not always necessary depending on the stresses involved and the type of sailing you do. I have hydraulic steering (Marol, a commercial marine make), using a rotary actuator, and I love its ease of use and "force multiplying" attributes...plus the fact that hydraulics are considerably more space-saving in certain situations.

http://www.marolmarine.com/products_1.html#b

http://www.comnavmarine.com/

http://www.whautopilots.com/products/index.html


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## haffiman37 (Jun 4, 2004)

I have a Raymarine unit in Haffiman controled by a 150G computer and have been very impressed by it.So far 20.000Nm without any problems. The only 'negative' might be the noise as it is mounted on the bulkhead in one of the aft cabins.
In general I would say:
If You have a hydralic steering system, go for hydraulic autopilot system.
If You have the 'normal' mechanical pedestall, (chain/wire) the mechanical would be my choise.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Haff,
Why would you not recommend a hydraulic drive unit on a mechanical steering system?


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## haffiman37 (Jun 4, 2004)

teshannon said:


> Haff,
> Why would you not recommend a hydraulic drive unit on a mechanical steering system?


If a mechanical system You are 'dragging' along with the hydraulic cylinder and an oil volume using it to force the oil the oil through the system (pump) backwards. If a normal hydraulic steering same cylinder is used both manual and by auto and pressure on seals etc are the way intended.
On the mechanical actuator You are just pushing a rod in and out, the clutch system keeps it 'free' and hardly any resistance is added in the system. No risk of oil-leak.
But this is just my 'opinion' and was mainly why I chose my system set up. The way my bulkhead was relative to the quadrant and space available I chose the mechanical solution and it was a rather simple installation. The size of the mechanical unit is quite big compared to a simple cylinder, and this may come into play as well.
Most things in a boat is a compromise, there are no rules without exceptions.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Haff...we are talking about the HLD350 here which is a self contained hydraulic pump driving a piston as opposed to a self contained electric pump driving a screw mechanism. Oil leaks are reasonably easily repaired and re-filling is quite easy. On the other hand if your circuit board blows or the threads get stripped on the Ray unit...the rebuild cost is almost as much as a new one. I disagree...having used both AND experienced the speed and power of the hydraulic unit in tough sea conditions. This is what I am talking about:








Versus This:








Are we talking about the same thing?


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## haffiman37 (Jun 4, 2004)

We are talking about the 'same'.
I just left a general comment about my views on the two different systems: mechanical vs hydraulic. 
Both have their advantages, both have their limits. 
In my set-up: 7-8000 Kg, fin keel, free-hanging spade-rudder (semi-balanced) and balancing the sails for minimum auto-pilot load and operation, the Raymarine unit worked without any problems even up to 50 knots of wind and about 6 m of waves. Long keeler with unbalanced rudder and more displacement I might have gone all hydraulic. There are a lot of factors that comes into play.


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## trantor12020 (Mar 11, 2006)

My friend ordered his brand new Hanse 315 with Simrad autopilot mid last year. Boat arrived san the Simrad autopilot 'cos Simrad quits the autopilot business (that's what was told by Hanse). Now he fits a Raymarine S1.


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## Pub911 (Oct 25, 2007)

Simrad under the holding company Navico, most definitely is still in the autopilot business. Navico is a family of known-for-their-quality product lines such as B&G marine electronics. That aside, I have been impressed by the tech folks at Simrad since making my original post. Thanks a bunch for all the commentary. My choice is Simrad.

Now to the specifics.

This stuff is expensive...best internet price for the combination mentioned below is about $3,500 for parts before I even get into any customization for the install. Each component has multiple models separated by price points about $200 to $400 apart (e.g. AC10 vs AC20 computer, and AP16 to AP26 display). 

Now, I can read the spec sheet as well as the next guy. That said, is there any 'street smarts' out there (or more appropriately: 'channel chatter') on what I'm missing if I go with this combination: AP16 display, AC10 computer, R36 gyro-fluxgate, HLD350 drive with the standard R300 feedback unit?

The application is a NorthStar38/aka Hughes 38. Loaded displacement of around 16,000lbs, loa 38', at waterline 21', skeg hung rudder, very well balanced S&S designed sloop rig, sailed primarily coastal, LI Sound and Block Island Sound with 'someday' thoughts of maybe trekking around the Bahamas. (yes, for those who follow CW, this is Cap'n Fatty's make/model)

Thanks to ALL for their contributions.


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## Pub911 (Oct 25, 2007)

Oh, and I should have added this, which may influence the AC10 vs. AC20 call....

At the moment, the other equipment on the boat includes a JRC GPS unit which is talking to a Raytheon SL72 combination chartplotter/radar unit. The depthsounder is a stand-alone unit and I have no electronic wind instruments. Although I can see myself adding wind instruments at some point.

My criteria for success on the autopilot is to be able to leave it alone on long tacks in typical weather conditions on all points of sail.

Happy to provide additional details if needed to respond to my question above. Thanks again!


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Looks right to me...the hld350 will draw up to 6 amps so the AC10 is a good match...everything else will perform well in your situation. The only thing I would emphacize in advance is to download the manuals and make sure your "quadrant" area measurements can handle the hld350 with a secure mounting base and plenty of travel at the right range of drive angles...and ditto for the rudder feedback unit. Building a secure base for the drive unit that can handle the forces involved is often the hardest part of the install. Make sure you have it figured out before ordering the components. Good luck with it and lets have pix of the install!!


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## artbyjody (Jan 4, 2008)

You'll be fine.... I use the C-80 system, with GPS and a Simrad Autohelm unit. It link in with the NMEA and it will accept the popular Autopilot routing commands....otherwise it just uses its internal compass bearings on where you set...


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## Pub911 (Oct 25, 2007)

So I won't be limited by the number of interfaces that the AC10 can handle? I thought I recalled from my conversation w/Simrad that it will take only one input (from the chartplotter), but when/if I add a set of wind instruments, I won't regret it? Are there other options to allow the unit to process both signals? 

Thanks, you guys!


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## artbyjody (Jan 4, 2008)

I stand corrected


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Yes...you will be limited...AC10 has ONE NMEA in/out plus the Robnet fo linking in other SIMRAD devices. The AC20 has TWO NMEA in/outs + RADAR + Robnet.
My post #15 did not have the benefit of seeing your post #14! Based on that you should go with the AC20. 
Here's a link to the entire AP16 manual which includes hookups to all the other components. 
http://www.simradyachtingusa.com/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_details&gid=472


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## Pub911 (Oct 25, 2007)

Hmmm....the conflict in the two responses above is the essence of my question. 

I've never tried to network NMEA components together. As an IT guy, it makes sense that a bus could do this, allowing me to stay with the less expensive AC10. But as an IT guy (redundancy intended) technology compatibility issues can make you nuts.  

Care to hash this out here?


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## haffiman37 (Jun 4, 2004)

I do not feel like advocating one brand ahead of another, that would lead to an endless and meaningless discussion.
However I would like to make a small comment on system set-up and integration. 
You seem to be ending up with an integrated system where some parts use the NMEA signals, and some uses the Sea-Talk system. On the paper that should be no probem, and as long as everything works it is no problem. However should there be some sort of integrating problem, be sure the suppliers will 'blame' the other part. 
And using an autopilot without a wind-vane possibility is next to dangerous. Sudden windshifts due to squalls/thunder etc might really make a mess, particularly at night, and taking the full advantage of the autopilot at upwind You will need it. 
The question in Your case might then be: which indicator manufacturer? Raymarine and Sea-Talk, Raymarine NMEA or B&G and NMEA, or+++?
Plan it all carefully and set up all questions and answers before You make Your final decission. When out there the dollars may not be all that important - system liability and safety is.


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## Pub911 (Oct 25, 2007)

Wow. Next to dangerous. You've got my attention. So am I really ahead of myself installing an Autopilot when all I've got to connect it to is a GPS feed (and of course, the components of the system itself: compass, rudder feedback, course computer, etc.)?

This is troubling. I really want to do this job now that all the tanks are out of the way, but the mast is up and I don't plan on taking it down until NEXT winter. Nor do I want to spend more money right now on wind instruments. I steer manually to the windex and the feel of the boat - never had 'em, never longed for 'em. So why an AP? Short answer is, I want to be able to leave the helm when the situation warrants.

Additional guidance please.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Pub...for what you want to do and what you have to hook up right now...the system you originally specified is FINE. For the enhanced capabilities you seem to want down the road, I suggest that you upgrade to the AC20. You don't have plans to cross an ocean and you can always add a wind feedback unit down the road. I see NO integration issues with other NMEA data and certainly no safety issues...our own similar system was QUITE adequate to carry us coastally and down to the Caribe (in some nice winds and seas) and these components were designed by a premier mfr. of pleasure AND commercial marine gear to do exactly what you want to do. No worries.
Call one of the CT dealers here and speak to a pro installer about your concerns and doubts. 
http://www.simradyachtingusa.com/index.php?option=com_directory&page=viewcat&catid=25&Itemid=200


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## artbyjody (Jan 4, 2008)

Alright here it is. What I use on my boat to tie in all of the NMEA devices to my C-80 System - is a this:










So my initial response was corrected and I succumbed to thinking I was wrong... the AP unit you are using has both NMEA 2000 and 0183 connectors...the above is what I use to connect my 0183 NMEA of the Simrad to my C-80's system. (Your charter has that format). Now for the NMEA 2000 devices you can use the same (above allows bridging 2 separate inputs...)

Listen the NMEA stuff is like ethernet....it really is not complicated - and while the market is all there to sell this fancy cable and the other....it really is not required...

Since you do not have a full blown C or E series system you'll need can use the same techinque to tie in all of the Seatalk / NMEA signals...

- (I recommend for nav stick with Raymarine and build it out, and keep your autopilot with just the base components)....So when you get a Windvane / compass keep it Raymarine... Your plotter charter will talk to the autopilot just fine (thats my setup)....Best bet is talk to Raymarine they'll walk you through the setup for Raymarine setup no problemo (thats how I got the advice to use the above to hook my stuff) - but do refrain from trying to do the cost cutting approach of this is cheaper than this brand - it makes it difficult and more time than money is spent which is money lost...

check out Pando.com if you haven't and you can learn all about it.... I am just a yahoo anyways, but for your init purchase you are fine - the expansion - it can be done many different ways...the latest standard agreement on NMEA 2000 B I think - is supposed to make it as easy as plug and play - its not there yet though as the debate is the connector styles...I installed my entire system myself - it can be done I am not the sharpest tool in the shed myself...it all comes with great documentation and both companies have great tech support...


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Jody...he only has a RAY radar and chartplotter combo. No need for SeaTalk. He could just as easily go simrad on everything.


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## Pub911 (Oct 25, 2007)

Ok, thanks! Picture are always a plus. Re: cost, I get it, in fact, that's why I've been heading down the Simrad path. More costly than Ray, but looks like it's built heavier. 

All the posts are appreciated. Futures as well.

Fair winds, all.

P


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## artbyjody (Jan 4, 2008)

camaraderie said:


> Jody...he only has a RAY radar and chartplotter combo. No need for SeaTalk. He could just as easily go simrad on everything.


No but if gets the windvane etc - if he gets the Raymarine products to interface - they are seatalk...


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## haffiman37 (Jun 4, 2004)

Pub911 said:


> Oh, and I should have added this, which may influence the AC10 vs. AC20 call....
> 
> At the moment, the other equipment on the boat includes a JRC GPS unit which is talking to a Raytheon SL72 combination chartplotter/radar unit. The depthsounder is a stand-alone unit and I have no electronic wind instruments. Although I can see myself adding wind instruments at some point.
> 
> ...


This 'criteria' was the main reason for my comment.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

BTW, the website I think Artbyjody meant to point you to is *http://www.PANBO.com, *not pando.com, and is an excellent marine electronics resource site... basically a blog on marine electronics and new developments in the field.

BTW, depending on the price difference, it may make more sense to go with an NMEA multiplexer rather than upgrading from the AC10 to AC20 to get more NMEA inputs. This would give you even more flexibility down the line and some of them are BlueTooth equipped, so you can tie your laptop into the GPS, wind, depth, and speed instruments without wires.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Pub911 said:


> Wow. Next to dangerous. You've got my attention. So am I really ahead of myself installing an Autopilot when all I've got to connect it to is a GPS feed (and of course, the components of the system itself: compass, rudder feedback, course computer, etc.)?
> 
> This is troubling. I really want to do this job now that all the tanks are out of the way, but the mast is up and I don't plan on taking it down until NEXT winter. Nor do I want to spend more money right now on wind instruments. I steer manually to the windex and the feel of the boat - never had 'em, never longed for 'em. So why an AP? Short answer is, I want to be able to leave the helm when the situation warrants.
> 
> Additional guidance please.


Does the position of the emergency tiller make a tiller pilot possible? It's the path of least resistance (not an electrical pun).

If it's of any help, this question is of sufficient concern to me that I have given it some thought, and plan to spend a large amount of dollars on the right solution for me.

My nav/autopilot/self-steering set-up will likely include the following:

1) A ComNav AP of the most basic type, likely model 1001, mated to a 25 cu.in. hydraulic rotary actuator and steered via something called a "satellite GPS" (the Vector G2 model) but switchable to my existing and reliable KVM AC103 fluxgate compass. I will not have direct linkages between my chartplotter and my autopilot...courses will have to be set manually.

2) A Furuno chartplotter/radar. This is a NavNet/NMEA 2000 system that will feed data to a PC in addition to its own display.

3) An AIS, separately installed but capable of feeding data to a PC.

4) A 2KW radar, mast mounted, and likely Furuno.

5) All necessary and current paper charts.

6) Sextant, current almanac, auxiliary tables and plotting sheets.

7) Two or three handheld GPSes, one of which is in the ditch bag.

8) A servo-pendulum wind vane autopilot, in my case the Voyager, an advancement of the same ideas as the German Windpilot model. This will be used offshore and will be entirely independent of the autopilot (the hydraulics must be bypassed for it to work), being attached to a tiller head and using the usual blocks and line. I may add a small tiller pilot to make it a true emergency steering system, but we'll see.

My ideas are based in redundancy of systems, minimal complexity, minimal automation, maximum strength (oversizing of certain components), and a healthy respect for traditional navigation. I am also interested in conserving amps, and don't mind a bit of wandering as a trade-off. Basically, the AP is on while the motor is on, or if I am on a point of sail where the windvane doesn't perform as well as the AP and/or I am making surplus amps from wind, sun or generator towing.

My ideas are also predicated on going distance cruising, and are more than is likely necessary for the coastal sailor, but the concept of NOT interconnecting the various bits and pieces runs contrary to the current trends, but are very much in line with my wish to take advantage of the technologies available to me without creating a house of electronic cards with multiple failure points.

Having seen the faces of many people this week at the Boat Show, it is obvious to me that the attraction of the newer sort of "do it all" displays is playing on the childhood wish fulfillment of some men to one day command a space ship. While this is more common among power boaters (who may have a better reason to know second-by-second fuel consumption rates), sailboaters aren't immune.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Val,
I just installed a Furuno chartplotter and radar last year, I like them a lot. I also just purchased A Furuno FA30 AIS receiver, I'll let you know how that works out in the spring. I also have a Furuno weather fax but have not gotten that to work properly yet. It's an installation issue, not an equipment issue. All download to my laptop. I have a handheld GPS in the ditch bag and a Garmin 478 at the chart table. Man I love gadgets.


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## bmulvihi (Feb 5, 2007)

What are the cost differences between these two types of units?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

bm,
What 2 types are you referring to?


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## artbyjody (Jan 4, 2008)

bmulvihi said:


> What are the cost differences between these two types of units?


You have two evaluate the differences in costs based upon all the connected units... For instance you go all Simrad or All Raymarine - the purchase price is way different than the DIY piece it together price...Either techinique can actually produce a reasonable price point difference.

TIP: You can negotiate the prices of a total system. When I did my Raymarine system - I got $1200 knocked off with buying the whole display, radar, and all the gizmos (ducers - repeaters etc)...over the list price... and that was from you major I do not want to admit I shop there store...

You'd be surprised what you you as the consumer can do if you have your ducks in the row...


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Bmul...Between the Simrad and Raymarine autopilot systms being discussed there is about a $300 difference...Simrad $3500...equivilent Ray system $3200.
Of course cheaper and more expensive systems are available from BOTH mfrs. based on needs.


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## haffiman37 (Jun 4, 2004)

I learned the beauty of having a one system set up when a thunderstorm came a bit too close and wiped out my whole system including plotters/radar and autopilot. I could isolate each and one of external sensors and instruments and got the auto pilot up and working by mainly pulling all Sea Talk inputs to the computer, leaving only the compass left. Then it was just a plug and play job with sea-Talk and instruments to finally discover the instrument that took the hit was the Tri-data. Got that one out of the game and the rest worked. Another 'advantage' is that I may use the auto pilot without having to run the power consuming plotter in order to get NMEA signals to the pilot. It may of course be solved by adding bridge-connectors that transform Sea-Talk to NMEA on each sensor circuit, which leaves quite a number of extra connection points and some more cables to keep track on. When things breaks down, Murphy's laws rules: it happens under the worst possible conditions and circumstances. Not being an electronic freak, but handy enough to install and know my systems, I prefer it as 'simple' as possible. Browse around the forum and read about failing instruments and systems. You will notice that the first answer given is :check all connections from corrosion. From that I simply read: If installing a system, see to that connecting points are reduced to a minimum. To me it looks that You are heading in direction of :Sea-Talk, NMEA in, NMEA out, NMEA 2000, NMEA 0183??


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## artbyjody (Jan 4, 2008)

Haff:

You bring up an important point I was trying to convey... price-points disconnected - how well can you understand the system. The actual autopilot - as long as it interfaces is a separate system. I can honestly state myself - that I always used the manual controls for the autopilot and rarely used the ability that the C-80 system has to drive the boat (have done was successful none the less - when sailing and not motoring - its easier to grab a bev and manage sails by using the tacking feature of the autopilot versus the steps to do the waypoints etc...)

Additionally is the troubleshooting - when you can dissect the system into a logical troubleshooting map... you go a long way... 

The cool thing was you understood your systems to determine by plug and unplug - what was the bad apple. And that is the goal when deciding what you select. Seatalk is powerful on its own then again so is the NMEA communication standard... 

But it is the correct selection of mating the components that allows one as a sailor to use automated controls to continue in that manner - so my main point is - stick with systems that you can learn. If you mix Garmin, Raymarine, Furono, Simrad - all based on some silly price point - you may pay more than you bargained for during a instance of failure... 

Navigation systems and autopilots in my opinion are two separate circumstances - best when they work together - but, if one or the other fails - neither is reliant on the other...

Haff brings that to point with his story...


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## haffiman37 (Jun 4, 2004)

Just for the info, here is my system set-up:
At the pedestall;
ST 60 -Tri-data and wind. (Came with the boat)
ST 6001 Autp pilot control
RL70C Radar/chart plotter

At nav station:
RL70C radar/chart-plotter
ST4001 (600R) auto pilot control connected directly into the second Sea-Talk input on my
150G (S2G) computer
(Why I could easily pull the plug for all other Sea-Talk inputs from instruments and GPS, I still had the manual controle at nav station , flux-gate compass and rudder indicator.)

Type1 linear drive and Raystar 125 GPS (set for Sea-Talk).
( Started with a Raystar 120 Sea-Talk from Norway, but that unit failed twice due to 'buffer overflow' on the way to Portugal. Got a 125Beta version from Raymarine to test across the Atlantic, and is still running without any problems.)
Had one NMEA output to my Simrad VHF from the RL70C at nav station, but that unit blew its sending module in the incident as well and has been replaced with an ICOM. No/bad service in this region from SIMRAD! Had excelent service from Raymarine in Singapore as I sent all instruments down for a check after arriving Malaysia.
In 2006 had to replace my wind-vane after another thunderstorm in Port Klang the evening before the Raja Muda regatta started.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

teshannon said:


> Val,
> I just installed a Furuno chartplotter and radar last year, I like them a lot. I also just purchased A Furuno FA30 AIS receiver, I'll let you know how that works out in the spring. I also have a Furuno weather fax but have not gotten that to work properly yet. It's an installation issue, not an equipment issue. All download to my laptop. I have a handheld GPS in the ditch bag and a Garmin 478 at the chart table. Man I love gadgets.


I will be very interested in hearing how they all hang together, thank you. What plotting program will you run on the PC and will you use the Furuno e-charts (C-Map, I think)?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Val,
Right now I run Fugawi on the PC. Not a lot of experience with it yet, MaxSea may be another option for me later if I find Fugawi not to my liking. My Furuno is set up with Navionics Gold charts and that seems perfectly adequate for my use. C-Map was the other option with Furuno but I went with Navionics. Happy with that choice so far.


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