# Full keel or larger boat???



## Rzulick (Nov 21, 2014)

I have owned a Catalina 27 since 1985. It really has been a great and economical boat.
My wife has become more prone to seasickness and has grown tired of the excessive rocking and rolling even at our mooring on busy or windy days.
I'm interested in moving up to a larger boat but do a fair amount if singlehanded sailing. 
I have been looking at full keel boats ( for stability and blue water capability) and like a Cape Dory 31 cutter rigged boat. I know that full keel boats are sluggish but want a boat my wife will feel more comfortable on.
Would I be better off simply looking at larger boats like a pearson 36?
Any recommendations would be appreciated!


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

CD31 is a rather narrow boat so it still rocks quite a bit. But it is a great boat for what you want to do. Have you looked at the Island Packet boats? People love them for comfort and safety. IP31 is an awesome boat.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

A couple quick thoughts here:
People who are prone to motion sickness fall in one of three categories:1. People who get sick from quick motion, 2. People who get sick from wide ranges of motion, and 3. people who get sick from both forms of motion. 

-The Catalina 27 has a particularly 'corky' motion which means it tends to move pretty quickly. Its understandable that your wife would suffer motion sickness on a Catalina 27. 
-Full keels have less than zero to do with motion comfort. While some full keel boats have hull forms and weight distributions that result in a slower roll speed, those boats generally tend to roll through bigger angles. For a seasickness prone person in the second or third category, they are more likely to get seasick on one of these boats rather than less. 
-A boat that is too wide or too narrow will have uncomfortable motions but different kinds and for different reasons. The Cape Dory 31 falls in the too narrow category.
- As a very broad generality, within reason, the longer the boat for its weight, the more comfortable it is likely to be for all three categories. 
- Take Island Packets off your list since they have a really poor motion in a chop. 
-There are a lot of things that can be done for seasickness. When an adult becomes more prone to seasickness it often involves sinus issues. Getting lots of sleep and avoiding alcohol can also help with seasickness. Ginger ale can help for some folks. My wife takes Stugeron which is a comparatively inexpensive miracle drug for her. Unfortunately, its not sold in the US so she has to order it online from Australia or New Zealand. 

Jeff


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## Rzulick (Nov 21, 2014)

How do you think the 1985 Pearson 36 would rate in the motion department?


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

I think that that's a pretty brawny, big boat with a great interior and you'll be rather astounded at the improvement in 'solidness' you'll feel over the old C 27. Similarly a Catalina 36 would keep you 'in the family' and be another great choice for what you're contemplating (unless, of course, the 'blue water' part of your plans was for real...)

It's funny.. as we 'upgraded' during the first part of our boating life, each successive boat's keel/ballast alone equaled or exceeded the previous boat's total displacement. The difference in motion/momentum was initially astonishing.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

I sail a 33 Morgan Out Island, 13-foot beam, full keel, sloop rig. It sails like a dream, doesn't heel more than 10 to 15 degrees with 20 knot winds on a beam reach, won't point real tight like the C27, but it will sail just as fast or faster most of the time ( I owned both.)

The one thing that most full keeled boats do not do very well is back up. We all suffer from the same problem with this V/S the fin keel setup on the C26 and C30, both of which back up like you're parking a car.

At anchor, the boat rarely rolls, and is always very stable. My daughter is the kind of person that has always been prone to motion sickness. She cannot even ride in the back seat of a car because she gets motion sickness. On my Morgan, she never even feels queezy in rough weather. It's a totally different ride with a full keeled boat.

Good luck,

Gary


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## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

What you really want to look at is the comfort ratio for the boats you are looking at


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## Tenoch (Sep 28, 2012)

I think you'll find either will be more stable. I moved up 4 feet, and added a cut-away full keel and you can definitely tell the difference. Just stepping on the boat from the dock feels more stable. They are currently docked side by side, and when I feel the boat Im on (the full keeler) rocking in a wake, I look out side and the smaller fin keeler is bouncing all over the place!


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

newhaul said:


> What you really want to look at is the comfort ratio for the boats you are looking at


With all due respect, what you do *not* want to do is look at the Comfort Ratio, since the comfort ratio has almost none of the factors which actually impact the motion comfort of the boat. As Brewer himself said, he developed the CR as a tongue in cheek exercise. The CR provides no useful information and frankly is very misleading in its results.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Tenoch said:


> I think you'll find either will be more stable. I moved up 4 feet, and added a cut-away full keel and you can definitely tell the difference. Just stepping on the boat from the dock feels more stable. They are currently docked side by side, and when I feel the boat Im on (the full keeler) rocking in a wake, I look out side and the smaller fin keeler is bouncing all over the place!


The extra stability and motion comfort you describe has everything to do with the extra waterline length, displacement and the hull form of the bigger boat and absolutely nothing to do with the fact that the boat has a full keel.

Jeff


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

Try your wife on a catamaran.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

Rzulick said:


> I have been looking at full keel boats ( for stability and blue water capability)


And just what is it about a full keel that makes you think that stability or bluewater capability (whatever that means) will be improved?


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

TQA said:


> Try your wife on a catamaran.


Since the OP said his wife gets seasick on their Catalina 27, it would suggest that she is at least of the type prone to higher speed type motion sickness. A cat would be a poor choice since cats are more likely to gave higher speed motions even though they are through smaller angles.


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## Pegu club (Jun 10, 2012)

Jeff_H said:


> The extra stability and motion comfort you describe has everything to do with the extra waterline length, displacement and the hull form of the bigger boat and absolutely nothing to do with the fact that the boat has a full keel.
> 
> Jeff


Question, we have a 1975 Bristol corsair, cutaway full keel, 24.7 feet at just under 6000 lbs, 3000 in the keel. We moor around several other 24 to 26 ft boats, and we bounce around substantially less in every condition. Among them are a Precision, an Oday, and a Cape Dory 25D etc, is it overall displacement or some other factor that accounts for the Bristols kinder motion, being that length over all is within 2ft of each other?

It's hard for this rookie sailor to imagine that the full keel has nothing to do with it, it seems contrary to much of what I read/ hear. Thanks for your thoughts.

We are in our 3rd year sailing, and have had her in as much as 6ft swells at 9second intervals, (most entertaining) and the corsair slides up and over the swells with a very kind motion, really like this aspect of the boat.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

Pegu club said:


> Question, we have a 1975 Bristol corsair, cutaway full keel, 24.7 feet at just under 6000 lbs, 3000 in the keel. We moor around several other 24 to 26 ft boats, and we bounce around substantially less in every condition. Among them are a Precision, an Oday, and a Cape Dory 25D etc, is it overall displacement or some other factor that accounts for the Bristols kinder motion, being that length over all is within 2ft of each other?


There is no one simple answer.

First, motion on a mooring is often different from motion underway.

Length overall (LOA) is not important. Length on the waterline (LWL) is.

Hull form is the most important factor. Full sections will reduce motion and generally make motion kinder. That same hull form results in a slower boat underway in a seaway. Everything is a compromise. Hull forms with fine sections forward and quite full ones aft may slap a bit at anchor but will be faster underway, particularly in a seaway.

"Bounce around" isn't very specific. A full keel boat is likely to yaw a bit less, but could easily roll more. Pitch is more a factor of waterplane area and longitudinal moment of inertia. Ultimately your Bristol probably moves less on the mooring than the boats you compare to mostly because she is heavy.

It would be interesting to have side-by-side comparisons of your Bristol and the 25D underway.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

this is one of those questions that spark hate and ire in many for no apparent reason...kind of like an anchor thread, or what oil is best thread or how VOYAGING isnt VOYAGING if its under 500 a month thread or whatever...

*if you feel *a boats motion is nicer and notice it has a full keel or is heavier and or is slower moving then note that.

no matter what math says and or what the designer INTENDED in the REAL world its what you feel and notice that will tell you weather a full keel boat is indeed better motioned at sea than a fin keeler or a wine glass hull is better than a tub a butter boat etc...

or or or or or so many examples here

all that matters is what you feel and how the boat reacts to conditions out there...


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

Pegu club said:


> Question, we have a 1975 Bristol corsair, cutaway full keel, 24.7 feet at just under 6000 lbs, 3000 in the keel. We moor around several other 24 to 26 ft boats, and we bounce around substantially less in every condition. Among them are a Precision, an Oday, and a Cape Dory 25D etc, is it overall displacement or some other factor that accounts for the Bristols kinder motion, being that length over all is within 2ft of each other?
> 
> *It's hard for this rookie sailor to imagine that the full keel has nothing to do with it, it seems contrary to much of what I read/ hear. Thanks for your thoughts.
> *
> We are in our 3rd year sailing, and have had her in as much as 6ft swells at 9second intervals, (most entertaining) and the corsair slides up and over the swells with a very kind motion, really like this aspect of the boat.


remember this feeling and ingrain it in your brain...you are right and are seing right now..dont let the bombardment of info out there tell you otherwise

one of the simplest examples of what you saw is this...you have a very very solid 50%ballast to displacement ratio..

irregardless of hull shape(within reason) you will react slower than a 25% ballasted boat

anyone who argues that even he or she is a designer is trying to get you to understand other criteria apart from the basics

the basics are very simple..

waterline length
overall hull length
draft
mast height(think rolling effect when paired with ballast depth)
ballast
displacement
hull shape

(like auspicious mentioned at a mooring and underway are very dissimilar instances of how a boat handles conditions...)

these are what will arguably matter most when talking about stability and "motion" comfort which really is a left field factor that was invented partly in joke

HOWEVER HAVING SAID THAT I find that some boats are indeed categorized better or worse and mimick reality in certain cases this doesnt mean its the only ratio you should pay attention too

in any case


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

Jeff_H said:


> Since the OP said his wife gets seasick on their Catalina 27, it would suggest that she is at least of the type prone to higher speed type motion sickness. A cat would be a poor choice since cats are more likely to gave higher speed motions even though they are through smaller angles.


despite me being a crusing cat HATER(for reasons other than motion comfort) I have found that the opposite is true..

cruising cats are especially mellow in their motions mostly when sailing conservatively

at anchor unless in a chop they are practically a houseboat they are so stable

its largely a reason why women love to cruise on cats so much...not only space but ease of motion

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW get crazy with sail trim and speed and you can get a can a whooopass in no time hit a wave wrong, slam the underbody just right and or lift an ama(yes on a cruising cat this does happen more than you would imagine) and scary FAST is an understatement FAST motions too

we saw numerous occasiions of this will buddy boating with 2 cats up the red sea

they would sail the cat so conservatively they were actually slower than us...however the always motored with 1 engine

if sailing in less than 10 knots they were full sails up, anything over 10 they reefed down to scraps of sail and motorsailed upwind...

whereas monhulls would be full blast ahead sail wise and yes roughing it more comfort wise...

this has most to do with wind angles and direction but it really opened my eyes to how comfortable or uncomfortable cats CAN be.

anywhoo


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

christian.hess said:


> cruising cats are especially mellow in their motions mostly when sailing conservatively


Well, not quite. The biggest issue with cats is that the natural period of pitch and the natural period of roll are rather close to one another. That means in some conditions (more often than one would like) and at some angles to the sea the boat moves like a corkscrew. That motion sets lots of people off.

As you say, sailing conservatively helps. Being conservative may include avoiding offshore passages in weather.



christian.hess said:


> its largely a reason why women love to cruise on cats so much...not only space but ease of motion


Not to speak for women as I am demonstrably not fit to do so. Many people like cats better because they don't heel much at all. You can put something down and expect it to be there when you get back.

Even if the motions (which are mostly about acceleration) are sometimes odd in a sea, the excursions are less.


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## Pegu club (Jun 10, 2012)

SVAuspicious said:


> There is no one simple answer.
> 
> First, motion on a mooring is often different from motion underway.
> 
> ...


I do expect that the Cape Dory 25D is faster, lighter displacement from my understanding. Cape Dory's have a good reputation concerning seaworthiness/ and a sea kindly motion. we have thought about a CD36


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Having done passages on multis and monos.
Multis have a sharp quick motion until they get quite large(>50'). 
It's hard to time the motion on a multi. On tris this is not much of an issue but cats you may end up with black and blues on outsides of arms and thighs as those open spaces can be difficult.
Multis are more expensive per foot in general than monos and for "blue water" 50' and up seems a good size. Save your pennies for a gun boat..
Those prone to high frequency induced motion sickness will not like passages on multis.
Monos may be hard on low rhythmic frequency prone folks. They may be be most sensitive to the corkscrewing motion you can get far reaching in ocean swells.
Monohullls more dependent on form stability behave more like cats. (Light and beamy). Like multis they float on the water not in it.
Listen to Jeff. He knows what he's talking about. For instance my 6.5' bulbed keeled spade ruddered boat has the sweetest motion of any boat I've ever been on under 50'. It has none of the features you mention.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

SVAuspicious said:


> Well, not quite. The biggest issue with cats is that the natural period of pitch and the natural period of roll are rather close to one another. That means in some conditions (more often than one would like) and at some angles to the sea the boat moves like a corkscrew. That motion sets lots of people off.
> 
> As you say, sailing conservatively helps. Being conservative may include avoiding offshore passages in weather.
> 
> ...


when sailed conservatively auspicios when sailed conservatively

the cats I was talking about were a 48 and 46 almost in the 50ft range outbound is talking about

again it depends what cat, where and how...however my experience is that they are quite mellow and not knee jerking and bouncing around

there are quite a few wonderful videos of cruising families for example in mid 40s and 50s cats having what seems like the easiest and comfiest of passages across the oceans compared to say a 35ft monohull

also like you say the mellow heel angles are what attract women especially mothers the most as stuff stays on the table per se

despite the speed

and beleive me Im no cat lover especially for offshore stuff(in most cases) but I do give them credit in many cases, for example storage, motion, heel angles and overall sailing characteristics

anywhoo


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## Oregonian (Oct 4, 2011)

Ahoy Rzulick,
This thread has again attracted a number of responses that, I feel, are erroneous. For the most part, Christian.hess has stated what I too believe. He is obviously talking from real world experience. I agree with Tenoch. He too is talking from experience. Pegu Club is talking from experience. Travelineasy is obviously talking from experience too. They have all said very similar things regarding boat motion.
Some of the other responses are from the theorist. They are the ones, for the most part, who are refuting what the experienced sailors are saying. Please note: At least one of the theorist has Never crossed any ocean in any boat yet is an “Expert” on everything that you desire information on. 
The following story has been printed before for the very same reason that I am telling it now: Once upon a time I was buddy boating South bound off Baja Mexico. I was on a 32’ heavy displacement, full keel boat. A Westsail 32. My buddy was on a 36’ medium displacement, Fin keel boat. A Cascade 36. We were running dead down wind, with equal sails, and rolling uncomfortably. My buddy looked worst off than I so I started counting the rolls. When the Cascade, the fin keeler, hit 100 rolls, the Westsail hit 70 rolls. We were sailing at the exact same speed and the roll amplitude appeared about equal. The Cascade has the longer waterline. Do you think that, perhaps, the full keel had something to do with the substantial difference in roll period?
Outbound told us an interesting story about how his modern boat has none of the issues that you mention on yours. He forgot to mention that he was comparing his 46’ boat to your 27’ boat. Hmmm.
One last thing about your initial post. Even though I am a delivery skipper with beaucoup experience, I am still prone to seasickness. Personally, I am Much more comfortable on a heavier and/or full keel boat. And I have never experienced the slowness that some posters insist is inherent with such a boat, when talking about the smaller sized ocean voyaging cruising boats.
Thankyou


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

amen

experience trumps what even the best designers can or cant express in his or hers beautiful drawings or designs...

its no coincidence that highest end design teams always have test sailors and racers to give feedback to them and modify again despite what theory says

does F1 just build whats on paper and never test drive?

hell no!!!

same applies to boats, if they are bathtubs or ultralight moth foilers the same...you need real world feedback

beleive me I know this as when herreshoff waxed poetic about his h28 I could wax with him too

but we didnt agree on everything!

same goes for all boats...just going by theory you are discarding the most important factor

*REAL LIFE TESTING*

the info is out there good or bad...*the experience *with this info is harder to get and obtain

why cause you need to go out there and do it, damn simple answer right?

the more you sail different boats, hopefully in different scenarios the more you will be able to accomplish in your sailing life.

the more you will understand, and slowly but surely you will have your own database on which to make decisions on future boats on.

peace to all

christian


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

Oregonian said:


> Some of the other responses are from the theorist. They are the ones, for the most part, who are refuting what the experienced sailors are saying. Please note: At least one of the theorist has Never crossed any ocean in any boat yet is an "Expert" on everything that you desire information on.


First, I think you are misusing the word "theorist" to include engineering and analysis that you don't appear to understand.

I don't know if I am one of those you disparage. For the record I am a degreed naval architect and marine engineer with military, commercial, and recreational design, construction, trials, and operational experience. I have crossed oceans as skipper and covered many more miles as crew on recreational boats.

Heavy, full-keel boats are not a priori bad. They have been around a long time. That doesn't make them good - older boats are heavy and have full keels because 1. in the beginning construction technology allowed little else and 2. that is what buyers expected boats to look like.

Full keel boats with attached rudders are pain to maneuver in close quarters. The full hull sections that they come with are slow, especially in a seaway. I can speak from personal experience on both a Tayana 37 (a full keel with a moderately cut-away forefoot) and a Passport 40 (a long keel) that in a significant sea with winds that should have had them showing their best the waves and swell keep boat speed to a dawdle.

Not all new ideas are great, but fin keels and bulb keels are a tremendous step forward for recreational sailors, cruisers, and passage makers.


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## masterofnone (Nov 23, 2014)

While your credentials are impressive I disagree. Ive sailed bulb and fin keels downwind in heavy weather and it was a test in forititude. Lock to lock steering was required to keep from spinning like a top cresting waves. The full keel or cutaway like I sail now tracks so much better and requires so much less effort to steer Ill never go back. Ocean passages are typically planned to be downwind. The pointing ability loses importance when compared to the ease of handling the helm in my opionion. I also feel much more comfortable knowing my rudder is protected and has a bottom bearing and I have no worries of losing my keel.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

masterofnone said:


> While your credentials are impressive I disagree. Ive sailed bulb and fin keels downwind in heavy weather and it was a test in forititude. Lock to lock steering was required to keep from spinning like a top cresting waves. The full keel or cutaway like I sail now tracks so much better and requires so much less effort to steer Ill never go back. Ocean passages are typically planned to be downwind. The pointing ability loses importance when compared to the ease of handling the helm in my opionion. I also feel much more comfortable knowing my rudder is protected and has a bottom bearing and I have no worries of losing my keel.


A few things:

Have you tried moving 10 or 15 degrees off course to pick up speed and improve motion? That works for most boats, regardless of underbody. VMG goes up and you get to where you are going faster. This is easier on passage than when you have rocks and other pointy bits to worry about.

I haven't had to deal with lock-to-lock steering downwind (except one time in an inlet) on any boat. Sail trim comes to mind. Keeping the forces balanced around the center of effort makes a huge difference. That also reduces the power consumption of an autopilot or the wear and friction on a wind vane.

The world has changed a great deal since the days when everyone went downwind. For example boats headed West to East in the Atlantic often limp in a bit beat up on the traditional Northern downwind route while those that plan for mostly close reaches further South get there faster and more comfortably. Westbound isn't much different although priorities differ based on temperature issues and one's ultimate destination. Of course in the tropics getting the wind at least a bit forward of downwind increases wind over the deck, reduces rolling, and makes the boat move faster - all contributing to boat speed.

Rudder protection is a marginal issue on passage. You can make a better case for rudder protection inshore. A fin keel boat can be designed with a full or partial skeg (the latter with the benefit of improved balance) for rudder protection.


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## GBurton (Jun 26, 2007)

SVAuspicious said:


> First, I think you are misusing the word "theorist" to include engineering and analysis that you don't appear to understand.
> 
> I don't know if I am one of those you disparage. For the record I am a degreed naval architect and marine engineer with military, commercial, and recreational design, construction, trials, and operational experience. I have crossed oceans as skipper and covered many more miles as crew on recreational boats.
> 
> ...


Well of course, both those boats are Bob Perry designs.

Your experience in "significant waves and swell keeping boat speeds to a dawdle" is more a reflection on your abilities as a sailor...


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

GBurton said:


> Your experience in "significant waves and swell keeping boat speeds to a dawdle" is more a reflection on your abilities as a sailor...


Race you.


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## GBurton (Jun 26, 2007)

SVAuspicious said:


> Race you.


As long as there is significant waves and swell.... haha


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

GBurton said:


> As long as there is significant waves and swell.... haha


Little Creek to Bermuda or Little Creek to Marsh Harbour or Lewes to Newport. You pick.


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## jfurlong (Apr 16, 2010)

a simple wife upgrade might be the easy answer.


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## GBurton (Jun 26, 2007)

SVAuspicious said:


> Little Creek to Bermuda or Little Creek to Marsh Harbour or Lewes to Newport. You pick.


Lets do Brookings Oregon, to San Francisco CA. Or SFO to Hawaii


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

GBurton said:


> Lets do Brookings Oregon, to San Francisco CA. Or SFO to Hawaii


You did the disparaging. I pick the coast.


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## GBurton (Jun 26, 2007)

SVAuspicious said:


> You did the disparaging. I pick the coast.


Sorry, it seems that I have hit a nerve.

In my experience I have found that a full keeled boat can compare very favorably with a fin/bulb keel in as you say "significant waves and swell"
In those sort of conditions, the full keeled heavy boat will be a more comfortable ride and motion will be less violent.... I know because I have experienced it.


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## Johnniegee (Oct 13, 2014)

Wow I am on the green side of sailing took the asa beginner lessen and hated the Colgate 26 bought a Nordica 16 to reenforce what I learned and like the boat. So limited fin keel full Keel and like the full keel better. This has me a bit confused as to which way to go when I move up to a 2 wheeler size boat.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Johnniegee said:


> Wow I am on the green side of sailing took the asa beginner lessen and hated the Colgate 26 bought a Nordica 16 to reenforce what I learned and like the boat. So limited fin keel full Keel and like the full keel better. This has me a bit confused as to which way to go when I move up to a 2 wheeler size boat.


These debates are no less polarized than a U.S. political discussion.

It comes down to personal preference- no more than that, really. For me the reduced performance while typically coastal cruising coupled with their generally dismal behaviour when maneuvering in close quarters, esp in reverse, take full keelers off my personal list.

When you do 'move up' take a hard look at how you're going to be using your boat, factor in how much any particular boat 'makes your heart sing', go from there and don't look back


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

GBurton said:


> Sorry, it seems that I have hit a nerve.
> 
> In my experience I have found that a full keeled boat can compare very favorably with a fin/bulb keel in as you say "significant waves and swell"
> In those sort of conditions, the full keeled heavy boat will be a more comfortable ride and motion will be less violent.... I know because I have experienced it.


1. You don't have to agree with me.

2. You don't have to say I can't sail just because you don't agree with me. Perhaps I have more experience on more boats than you do. Perhaps I've been out in more conditions than you. Perhaps the opposite is true. You don't have to be rude and disparaging.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Hit a nerve perhaps but this is not PRWG. Keep it civil please.


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## GBurton (Jun 26, 2007)

SVAuspicious said:


> 1. You don't have to agree with me.
> 
> 2. You don't have to say I can't sail just because you don't agree with me. Perhaps I have more experience on more boats than you do. Perhaps I've been out in more conditions than you. Perhaps the opposite is true. You don't have to be rude and disparaging.


I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on the speed of a full keeled boat in significant waves and swell. My experience is opposite of what you describe.
I'm sorry but that comment you made really does point to your sailing abilities.
I don't think I'm being rude or disparaging, just disagreeing with you.

If you're ever on this side of the world, I would like to take you out on my boat in the conditions you describe.

Sincerely


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## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

A big point for my preference of full keel over fin is most full full keepers have encapsulated ballast


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

fwiw I just had a great sail on my new to me fin keel and spade merit 25

sails balanced and tracks well, and is a great great peformer and despite being a spade has great rudder feedback and is not overly needy in regards to rudder input from the helmsman

goes to show how much the design matters and how it really comes down to the individual boat and how it sails versus generalities like fin vs full keel

or skeg vs attached rudder or barndoor

I was sincerely impressed about this merit versus say the very equal j24 wich for me sailed siginifantly worse and was more needy

as usual experiences may vary


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## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

christian.hess said:


> fwiw I just had a great sail on my new to me fin keel and spade merit 25
> 
> sails balanced and tracks well, and is a great great peformer and despite being a spade has great rudder feedback and is not overly needy in regards to rudder input from the helmsman
> 
> ...


Hey man glad to hear your back on the water where all true sailors feel best at home


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

thanks man! its good to be sailing again... in fact its been over 2 years since I left the federation...and did my last "cruise" my 3 sails on the islander down south didnt count really

peace

edit sorry I was supposed to be out of this one...once again I get sucked in! ajajaja


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## garritt (Oct 12, 2002)

the IP31 holds about 9,000 pounds of water in its cockpit.....I do not like it for a offshore boat......would not want to be pooped in it , but it is great at the dock room for a dozen ( I do not want a dozen people on my boat)........................the full keel boats do take longer to tack over , but are much more comfortable/stable downwind and most important , they protect the prop & Rudder.....think of a boat as a tool..............sadly most boats that are offshore probably should not be there ( oh well).....


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## Fiddlerman (Mar 19, 2013)

Rzulick said:


> I have owned a Catalina 27 since 1985. It really has been a great and economical boat.
> My wife has become more prone to seasickness and has grown tired of the excessive rocking and rolling even at our mooring on busy or windy days.
> I'm interested in moving up to a larger boat but do a fair amount if singlehanded sailing.
> I have been looking at full keel boats ( for stability and blue water capability) and like a Cape Dory 31 cutter rigged boat. I know that full keel boats are sluggish but want a boat my wife will feel more comfortable on.
> ...


I copied this from a Facebook group that I frequent. Great way to avoid rocking and rolling that I had never thought of before. Posted two replies from that page as well.

Chris - There's an awesome trick we learned from a fellow cruiser when we were living aboard and cruising. When you're on the hook in a choppy or rolly anchorage, attach a long strong line (or use your bridle) to your anchor chain (don't know if it works with anything other than chain). Lead the line to a stern or midship cleat, and pull the chain so that it is almost midship and the boat turns broadside to the chop or rollers. The anchor tension will keep the boat from rolling and you'll go from rolling everywhere to an almost becalmed state. We did this at Half Moon Cay in the Bahamas in a VERY open and rolly anchorage, and sat like this for 2 days in 30kt winds and big rollers, completely exposed. Obviously, you need a good anchor, good holding and a chain in good condition, but it's a GREAT way to make a nasty anchorage a wonderful one.

John - You don't want broadside, angle off, and take the waves on her shoulder.
7 hrs · Like · 2

Mark - Used the method several times over the years. Works well so long as you get it trimmed right. Agree with John. Taking the rolls on the quarter is a lot better than broadside. I'd also recommend paying out just a little extra anchor rode.


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## Siamese (May 9, 2007)

TQA said:


> Try your wife on a catamaran.


And when you're done with that, have your wife try sailing on a catamaran :laugh.


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## mtraney (Mar 14, 2014)

newhaul said:


> What you really want to look at is the comfort ratio for the boats you are looking at


I'm interested in comfort ratio as well and have a chart comparing comfort ratios of some popular cruisers on my site sailingphoenix dot com

I agree that motion sickness is fairly individual so highly encourage you to try some different boats out, overnight if possible, before buying. Hard to do, I know, but make sitting at anchor for at least an hour part of the sea trial?

Marie Raney
s/v Phoenix, Ohlson 41 steel sloop


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

Basically any larger heavier boat will have a more comfortable motion than your Cat 27. As to your question about single-handing, a lot depends on the equipment. Things like a roller furling headsail, an autopilot (your second crewmember!) and some kind of main handling system (furling, lazy jacks, Dutchman) will make all the difference. The toughest part is getting back on the mooring or into the slip if its windy.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

mtraney said:


> I'm interested in comfort ratio as well and have a chart comparing comfort ratios of some popular cruisers on my site sailingphoenix dot com
> 
> I agree that motion sickness is fairly individual so highly encourage you to try some different boats out, overnight if possible, before buying. Hard to do, I know, but make sitting at anchor for at least an hour part of the sea trial?
> 
> ...


With all due respect, the Motion Comfort Index (or Capsize Screen Formula for that matter) are so completely unreliable that preparing a chart comparing comfort ratios of popular cruisers would at best be useless, and at worst would be dangerously misleading.

As I have explained many times in the past, (and I am about to explain yet again) these surrogate formulas tell almost nothing about how the reality of a boat's likelihood of capsize or its motion comfort. In fact they provide so little indication of a boat's behavior that to rely on them in any way borders on the dangerous behavior.

Both of these formulas were developed at a time when boats were a lot more similar to each other than they are today, and used data gleaned from studying the boats of that era, which did not anticipate the enormous increases in stability and dampening forces that are present in modern designs.

These formulas have limited utility in comparing boats other than older style design which are very similar in weight, and weight and buoyancy distribution to each other.

Neither formula contains almost any of the real factors that control motion comfort, the likelihood of capsize, or seaworthiness. Neither formula contains such factors as the vertical center of gravity or centers of buoyancy, neither contains weight or buoyancy distribution (of the hull both below and above the waterline), the extent to which the beam of the boat is carried fore and aft, and neither contains any data on dampening, all of which really are the major factors that control motion comfort or the likelihood of capsize.

I typically give this example to explain just how useless and dangerously misleading these formulas can be. If we had two boats that were virtually identical except that one had a 1000 pound weight at the top of the mast. (Yes, I know that no one would install a 1000 lb weight at the top of the mast.) The boat with the weight up its mast would appear to be less prone to capsize under the capsize screen formula, and would appear to be more comfortable under the Motion Comfort ratio. Nothing would be further than the truth.

And while this example would clearly appear to be so extreme as to be worthy of dismissal, in reality, if you had two boats, one with a very heavy interior, shoal draft, its beam carried towards the ends of the boat near the deck line, a heavy deck and cabin, perhaps with traditional teak decks and bulwarks, a very heavy rig, heavy deck hardware, a hard bottomed dingy stored on its cabin top, and the resultant comparatively small ballast ratio made up of low density ballast. And if we compare that to a boat that is lighter overall, but it has a deep draft keel, with a higher ballast ratio, the bulk of the ballast carried in a bulb, its maximum beam carried to a single point in the deck so that there was less deck area near the maximum beam, a lighter weight hull, deck and interior as well as a lighter, but taller rig, it would be easy to see that the second boat would potentially have less of a likelihood of being capsized, and it is likely that the second boat would roll and pitch through a smaller angle, and would probably have better dampening and so roll and pitch at a similar rate to the heavier boat, in other words offer a better motion comfort....And yet, under the Capsize Screen Formula and the Motion Comfort Index it would appear that the first boat would be less prone to capsize and have a better motion when obviously this would not be the case.

There are some better indicators of a vessel's likelihood of capsize. The EU developed their own stability index called STIX, a series of formulas which considered a wide range of factors and provides a reasonable sense of how a boat might perform in extreme conditions. Unfortunately meaningful results require a lot more information than most folks have access to for any specific design. The Offshore Committee of US Sailing developed the following simplified formula for estimating the Angle of Vanishing Stability (Sometimes referred to as the 'AVS', 'limit of positive stability', 'LPS', or 'Latent Stability Angle' ):
Screening Stability Value ( SSV ) = ( Beam 2 ) / ( BR * HD * DV 1/3 )
Where; 
BR: Ballast Ratio ( Keel Weight / Total Weight )
HD: Hull Draft 
DV: The Displacement Volume in cubic meters. DV is entered as pounds of displacement on the webpage and converted to cubic meters by the formula: 
Displacement Volume in Cubic Meters = ( Weight in Pounds / 64 )*0.0283168
The Beam and Hull Draft in this formula are in meters. These values are entered in feet on the webpage and are converted to meters before SSV calculation.
Angle of Vanishing Stability approximately equals 110 + ( 400 / (SSV-10) )

There is a convenient calculator at http://www.sailingusa.info/formula.htm

It should be noted that the AVS is only one indicator in evaluating the likelihood of capsize, meaning it only predicts the point at which the vessel wants to turn turtle. It does not predict the amount of force that would be required to heel the vessel to that limit, nor does it predict how the shape of the boat might encourage wave action to roll the boat closer to the angle at which it no longer wants to return.


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## GAZZATHESAILORMAN (Feb 3, 2014)

Being in Australia, we are not so aware of those American breeds mentioned...Of course deep keel boats are much more stable, but you have to keep in mind some points.
1. Cost of penning / berthing. In my case, with a smallish 20 foot RED EAGLE keeler, sitting high on a trailer, a pen would be much more convenient, but the local harbor charge $6,500 per year..[ for the smallest pen] .that is more than my whole rig is worth. So the yacht sits on the trailer.
2. Its nice if you can afford a pen, but if you want to save money by trailering, be aware of the depth of the launching ramp...Here we have two harbours with lovely long finger jetties, [put in by the government out of registration fees...] but some donkey in their wisdom to save money, had the underwater concrete ramp go in only for half the distance of the jetty. At both locations.Meaning that any small keel boat owner has to watch the tides to ensure enough water to float off and on.
A further problem is power boat owners powering on and off the same ramps, causing blowout holes at the end of the ramps, into which your keel trailer can disappear...possibly losing the yacht.
I shifted into the area because of those harbours...and because of the length of the ramps, am stuck.
So I'm having to sell the keel boat and possibly get a drop keel...
just to be able to keep sailing...
Sorry about my gripe, but it promotes better research into your specific needs.
Cheers...G.


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