# The perfect $100k circumnavigator



## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

For a while it seemed like every other week, someone would come on SailNet asking what is the perfect boat for a circumnavigation in some price range. No matter what the price range there were always all kinds of differing opinions. One of the most commonly requested price ranges was around $100K. This morning I saw this listing for a 1981 Kelly Peterson 46.

While I have not seen the boat, and have no idea what shape she is really in, and based on a specific person's tastes and objectives, they might find her choice of gear as debatable, I thought I would post this link below to her listing in case there is someone thinking to themselves "What would the perfect $100K circumnavigator look like?" (or more precisely what does Jeff_H think is the near perfect $100K circumnavigator look like?) (and for the record I almost never refer to myself in the third person but I could not think of another way to say that and, no, I have no connection to this boat or seller)

1981 Formosa Peterson 46 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Jeff


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## Mimsy (Mar 22, 2009)

Jeff, Capricious was berthed next to us before she left for her cruise. This is indeed, a great cruiser. The family who sailed her lived aboard with a teen age son and a 4 year old girl and had plenty of room for them as well as the occasional guests. For those who are looking for a boat to comfortably accomodate kids, this model certainly fits the bill.
(note- I have no idea what condition this particular boat is in, merely commenting on the livability/space )


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Jeff_H said:


> For a while it seemed like every other week, someone would come on SailNet asking what is the perfect boat for a circumnavigation in some price range. No matter what the price range there were always all kinds of differing opinions. One of the most commonly requested price ranges was around $100K. This morning I saw this listing for a 1981 Kelly Peterson 46.
> 
> While I have not seen the boat, and have no idea what shape she is really in, and based on a specific person's tastes and objectives, they might find her choice of gear as debatable, I thought I would post this link below to her listing in case there is someone thinking to themselves "What would the perfect $100K circumnavigator look like?" (or more precisely what does Jeff_H think is the near perfect $100K circumnavigator look like?) (and for the record I almost never refer to myself in the third person but I could not think of another way to say that and, no, I have no connection to this boat or seller)
> 
> ...


Okay - I have to steal this one for the Salt's Thread...obviously. Nice work Jeff!


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## QuickMick (Oct 15, 2009)

i think these are just beautiful

Cheoy Lee 48 Perry for Sale

you might be able to get her for a hundo.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

For a family or two couples, where , say, four people can be relied on for crew I'd thoroughly agree with you JH but for a couple alone, I'm not convinced.

There was until a couple of months back a KP46 moored near us and I always though her a handsome boat though I noticed that she rarely if ever went out with just the owners on board. 

To my mind the KP46 is a lot of boat for two people to handle and a lot of boat to maintain. 

Although a lot more money we've looked at an HR 38, a Moody46 and a VDS44 in recent times. Other than the Moody they are similar concept to the KP46 but just that little bit smaller. These are big boats for their loa. Even the HR is no slip of a thing. 

That said, you do say 'circumnavigation' not just a coastal cruiser that may pull into a new port every few days. Those 46' would certainly be nice for the offshore stuff and she obviously has plenty of room for that cat to do the boogaloo.


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## Gramp34 (Oct 5, 2006)

Hmmm....

* Solid fiberglass hull
* 34,000 lb displacement
* Low aspect ratio keel
* SA/D of 15.3
* Wineglass shaped hull sections
* Length to beam ratio of 3.54

Has someone hacked Jeff_H's account?  

(Sorry, couldn't help myself.  )

Tim


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Gramp34 said:


> Hmmm....
> 
> * Solid fiberglass hull
> * 34,000 lb displacement
> ...


damn, here's a man who is even more cynical than I am.

Suffice it to say that JH did qualify his choice with the $100.000 price tag and there was nothing said about racing this thing around the cans.

Then again, he's married now, thinking of settling down......feet up, fluffy slippers.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

tdw said:


> ...To my mind the KP46 is a lot of boat for two people to handle and a lot of boat to maintain.
> 
> ....


That's a very nice boat, but I agree with the Cat . That's a 30 year old boat and the maintenance needed to put that boat fit to do a circumnavigation and after that, the annual maintenance, not to speack of the berth prices on marinas, would make it an expensive boat to have and to keep.

I don't mean that the boat is not interesting and at a fair price, only that I don´t think this is the right kind of boat for a guy that want to do a "budget" circumnavigation.

About the handling, I am not sure if I agree with tdw. The sails are not really big and ali lines are run to the cockpit. It all depends on the reefing system, but that you can adapt.

Regards

Paulo


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I probably should have been clearer in my earlier post. To start with, I think that a 46 footer is a very big boat for a couple. I personally think that for a long distance cruiser about 10-11,000 lbs per person is a reasonable maximum displacement. My personal preference is even less than that. I should also note, that the original displacement shown for KP-46's was more like 26,000 lbs. Even at the more typically quoted 30,700 lbs displacement, with a waterline length approaching 40 feet that gives the KP-46 an L/D in the 170-220 range which is not all that bad for an offshore capable cruiser (especially if you compare it to something silly like a Hardin 45 which has a 32,000 lb displacement on a 32 foot waterline and so a D/L of 426 )

But more to the point, I also am a firm believer that there are a lot of 'right' solutions to most sailing questions. The boat in question answers the question: _"What boat should I buy if I have roughly $100,000 to spend on a boat to take my family around the world? I am looking for a design that has a proven record, solid construction and which will offer a balance mix of good performance, decent seakeeping and motion comfort, and which can be found in a well maintained and upgraded condition within my price range. I am not a fan of lighter displacement craft." _

This is not the boat that I would probably buy for myself. If those were my goals, wanted a boat of that general size and I had a bigger budget, I would probably look at something like a J-44 or Farr 44.

But when I think of the folks who come here and ask about moderate to heavy displacement circumnavigators, I would suggest that this would be a very good candidate. What also distinguishes this particular boat is that someone has put a lot of money and care into making the necessary upgrades, long term maintenance and alterations that it takes to make this particular boat pretty ideal for this kind of thing.

And as Andrew (tdw) points out, I qualified this by saying within this price range. As I look at this subject, I think there are heavier displacement type designs in all price ranges that make sense as potential circumnavigators. For example at less than $75K I would normally default to a Tayana 37 and at over $200K I would normally default to the Valiant 40.

Personally, since I have no interest in doing a circumnavigation, none of these boats would make sense for my own use.

Jeff


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

Easy, a boat that costs 60k, and use the extra 40k for re-commission, refit, and repair!


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

puddinlegs said:


> Easy, a boat that costs 60k, and use the extra 40k for re-commission, refit, and repair!


I wonder it its mast would break off if it was rolled?
L, where are you?

Dabnis


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

PCP said:


> That's a very nice boat, but I agree with the Cat . That's a 30 year old boat and the maintenance needed to put that boat fit to do a circumnavigation and after that, the annual maintenance, not to speack of the berth prices on marinas, would make it an expensive boat to have and to keep.
> 
> I don't mean that the boat is not interesting and at a fair price, only that I don´t think this is the right kind of boat for a guy that want to do a "budget" circumnavigation.
> 
> ...


Cat ? CAT ? Really. Show some respect please.  (or I might start calling you a Spaniard.....).

Wombat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sail are not huge by say racer standards but even so that main would be a handful if you had to get it down by yourself and should the headsail furler misbehave you'd also be having a struggle.

That said, I was mainly thinking of the difficulties in sailing such a boat in a port or river. Multiple tacks with only a couple on board would be downright tiring and docking a 46'er with only two people could also be rather stressful.

For sure if everything goes perfectly , AOK, but you know sailing boats and what can go wrong usually does and at the most inconvenient times.

Given a choice I'd still rather be playing with 20,000lbs and gear to match than 30,000 which is why our next boat will be by preference more 40' than 45.

Even so that KP46 would be downright luxurious to live on I have to admit that.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

tdw said:


> Cat ? CAT ? Really. Show some respect please.  (or I might start calling you a Spaniard.....).
> 
> Wombat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> .


Sorry about that...but it looks like a fat cat I mean, not the animal, but the drawing



tdw said:


> Sail are not huge by say racer standards but even so that main would be a handful if you had to get it down by yourself and should the headsail furler misbehave you'd also be having a struggle.
> 
> That said, I was mainly thinking of the difficulties in sailing such a boat in a port or river. Multiple tacks with only a couple on board would be downright tiring and docking a 46'er with only two people could also be rather stressful.
> 
> ...


Probably you are right, that's an old boat and I don't know if the furler is a new model. But I know some people that sail solo on 45 to 60 ft boats ( modern and lightboats). They say it is easier than in a small boat (with bad weather) and that if the boat is properly equipped it is not a problem. Of course they are very experienced sailors.

I agree with you in what concerns putting such a boat in and out of a marina. Anyway you would pay so much that it would be better to stay out anyway

Personally I agree with you about syze. For me minimum would be 37ft, max 43ft, and I mean light boats.

Give me one of these (with a 2.20 draft) and I will be quite happy :

Overview: Sydney 39 Cruiser Racer by Sydney Yachts

Regards

Paulo


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

TDW may be fat...but he's definitely not a feline...he's far too clumsy to be a cat.....


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

PCP said:


> Sorry about that...but it looks like a fat cat I mean, not the animal, but the drawing
> 
> Probably you are right, that's an old boat and I don't know if the furler is a new model. But I know some people that sail solo on 45 to 60 ft boats ( modern and lightboats). They say it is easier than in a small boat (with bad weather) and that if the boat is properly equipped it is not a problem. Of course they are very experienced sailors.
> 
> ...


The S39 would make a great boat for what we now do..i.e. weekend live aboard, month or two short cruises each year and the occasional day sail. For the club racer/cruiser they would be perfect.

I'm not convinced for permament cruiser/live aboard but thats probably a personal thing not objective.

Nice boats, nonetheless. Sydney boat show is on at the end of next month, I might even have a look at the Sydneys when we are there. I'm also going to have a look at one of these....(not that I could afford to buy her).

The Bluewater 420 Raised Saloon Cruising Yacht

At 27,000lbs she's a big 40'er though. No lightweight, that is for sure.

The Farr44 that JH mentions is also a nice boat. There is one for sale in NZ at the moment but it has a somewhat quirky interior layout.

This is still the thing that moves me.....(JH is not convinced)










Dehler DS41


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

TD,

"Wild Redhead" is still for sail..........ooops, sale near me. PURRRRRTTTYYY boat! I am sure we up here in the puget sound regions can keep her moving so no barnicle, nor muscles, nor other funky growth would foul, or is that fowl the bottom! I think the price has dropped a dollar or two........


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

blt2ski said:


> TD,
> 
> "Wild Redhead" is still for sail..........ooops, sale near me. PURRRRRTTTYYY boat! I am sure we up here in the puget sound regions can keep her moving so no barnicle, nor muscles, nor other funky growth would foul, or is that fowl the bottom! I think the price has dropped a dollar or two........


Whats 'Wild Redhead' ?

Ah me...you know and I know that I should have jumped on that Dehler.

EDIT...OH WAIT...Wild RedHead...thats the red 39er in Seattle right ?


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Boy are ye getten slow Mr TD! You had better go on a diet, so folks would quit calling you a cat! much less a marmot type critter! We's gots a few of them around here! Cute little guys!

Any way, yes, that is the RED Dehler here in Seattle. It changed brokerage firms somewhere along the line. She is still available. I may have the name wrong, altho it does have "RED" in it!

Marty

edit

Wild Redhead


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## Capnblu (Mar 17, 2006)

I though TDW's picture was a beaver! hahaha 
Were you thinking of going and looking at this boat in person Jeff H? I would be curious what your impression of seeing it in person would be, compared to what the pictures look like. Of course I realize that you are not looking to buy it, but perhaps rather discuss, what might be involved in a hypothetical refit, and real world costs, and timeframes.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Infamy, Infamy, the've all go it infamy.....

First a pussycat and now a beaver....really this is all too much. As my cousin Blinky might say....how much can a Koala Bear ?

I'm complaining to the moderators about this. 


Marty,
The Redhead is a lovely girl, no doubt but I still lust after that Deck Saloon.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

tdw said:


> Infamy, Infamy, the've all go it infamy.....
> 
> First a pussycat and now a beaver....really this is all too much. As my cousin Blinky might say....how much can a Koala Bear ?
> 
> ...


I have not called you a *******cat, but a *Fat*cat. Better Fat than *****.

About the Dehler 41Ds:

I have also considered a deck-saloon for my next boat. My wife wanted one and I was not against, providing I could find one fast and enjoyable to sail.

I have looked at the Dehler, it is fast and a nice looking boat (not as fast as I wanted) but the main reason I have looked elsewhere is that I want or a new boat or at least a boat with less than five years.

I have found the boat that meets my criteria and my wife's criteria. We both love the boat, but it serves us no porpose . New, it is too expensive and they are very rare on the used market, and when they appear, they are also too expensive anyway.

Tell me, is it not a beauty?


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Paulo,

DO not worry about fuzzy too much. They are a bit backwards down under you know! There feathers, ooops, fur on wombats gets frazzled easy enough. Besides, He is a BIG boy, knows how to dish it, knows how to take it...........LOL

For Mr Fuzzy, I guess too bad Wild redhead is not a ds. The DS you were looking at was purchased by a poster on here, not sure I can remember off the top of my head who it is, but I have seen them post.

marty


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Paolo, 

What is that ? I've seen the design before but I cannot put my finger on it. 
Very pretty boat. The performance of the Dehler does not concern me greatly. I know she will be faster that the current Womboat and to be frank that is really all I am looking for. The advantage in ease of handling that comes from the self tacking headsail is a great big plus for me. 

We've sure as hell blown $100big ones out the window havn't we ? To be kind we could call it thread drift.....the less charitable would be screaming hijack.

Marty,
If you ever remember who that was let me know. I'd love to have a chat with a DS41 owner. 

Now I'm going to be a big butch macho marsupial and get this week underway......

edit..Paolo...I found something called a Northwind...similar. Example I found was oldish, also saw a 43' centre cockpit. Not the sexiest thing outside but an absolutely gorgeous fitout. OTOH, I just don't get the idea of a DS where the saloon is not in the house. Built in Barcelona ?


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Fuzzy, look in the interesting boat thread in this forum, and the name, designer etc of that boat is listed. 

I'll see if I can figure out the poster with the DS41 you liked so much.

Marty


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Marty, this time you are not right. This one is not yet on that thread, but ir deseves and I will reposte this post there also.

_Jeff_, *sorry* about the detour, I hope you don't mind .
<O</O
Fuzzy,

No, this is not a Nortwind. Those are also great boats, but they are heavier and they have stopped to make small Yachts. The smaller now is a 58ft.
Northwind » Yates

That boat is a Luffe 43DS. Before the crisis I thought that eventually I could have the means to buy one, so I have visited the shipyard, talked with the owner. They were building one, but they had not one available for test sailing, so I test sailed another luffe (the boat sailed wonderfully).<O</O

I liked everything, the boat, the shipyard, Oluf Jørgensen and the love of perfection that they put in all their work.
<O</O
I don't even think that the boat is expensive, if we compare it with for instance X-Yachts.
<O</O
And I say X yachts, because they are both Danish boats( the Luffe has a local nick name: X-eater ) . 

The Luffe are very fast cruiser racers, the owner of the shipyard is a racer that 30 years ago made its own racing boat (a 37) . He made Wood Dragons at that time. The boat was so good that he started to build cruiser racers, first for friends then for a small market. He still races and have its own Luffe.

The 43Ds was borne by the desire that an old client had to travel extensively. This old racer wanted to travel, but have no desire to sail a slow or boring boat and asked Oluf Jorgensen to adapt a 43 cruiser-racer for extensive bluewater cruising, easy anf fast sailing and the result was that boat.
<O</O
The 43Ds is normally equipped with a self-taking front sail and, as the one on the picture, a top class Danish furler boom. The boat has at least an electric winch (for the furler boom). The boat is light, but strong, with an interior steel frame that support and distribute the rig and keel loads.
<O</O
Here you can see Oluf Jorgensen racing one of its boats on a major Nordic race (how many owners and designers of sailboats are active racers, or sailors?)<O</O




<O</O
And about the 43 DS
<O</O
http://www.luffe.com/yachts.php?site=yachts&page=spec&range=43_ds<O</O
http://cy-gb.facebook.com/album.php?aid=124834&id=98691490358
<O</O
<ORegards

Paulo

By the way, it is Paulo, not Paolo Paolo is Italian. Phonetically it sounds exactly the same.


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## albe1066 (Apr 3, 2009)

Jeff,

Good day, Capricious is a Formosa Peterson 46 (F46). These were built in different yards than the Kelly Peterson (44s and 46s) and the construction was not supervised by Jack Kelly. Basically the same design as the KP 46, but they may differ in construction. They are still fine boats, however if you look at the price of a KP 46 you will see they are typically much more expensive. For example there is a 83 KP 46 listed on Yachtworld for ~230k.

There is a great forum for Peterson Cutters PetersonCutter : eGroup devoted to the Peterson KP44 and 46 and the F46 and a website that has considerable information about the Peterson designed 46s and 44s Peterson Cutter Website - Welcome. You can find the history of the boats on the website. The Peterson 44 was listed as one of "Ten Great Used Boats to sail Around the World" in John Kretschmer "Used Boat Notebook".

We own a KP44 and used the list and website extensively before we purchased and during renovation. They are old boats but many were maintained very well. We looked at every KP44 on the east coast (~6 boats on the market at the time) and surveyed 2 boats before we found a boat that we felt was in good shape and worth upgrading. We paid more than 100k to purchase our 44 and invested a considerable amount in upgrades. We re-wired, replaced electric panel, re-plumbed, re-powered, new sails, replaced all through hulls seacocks and did many other upgrades. Not all of the upgrades were needed at the time, but we wanted to upgrade anything that may cause a problem before we move onto our boat. Upgrading is part of the cost of an old boat. We looked at boats that the purchase price was less than what we paid, however there were issues that were going to be very costly that drove us away. The deck on some of the Petersons we considered was not in good shape and required very expensive repairs.

You may find some of the Petersons where previous owners have done many upgrades. It appears that Capricious may be one of these upgraded boats. She sure looks good. We have owned our KP44 for about 2 years and love it.

Cheers
-allen


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Paulo...sorry about the spelling....payback for calling me a cat.......I was actually going to ask you how come a Portuguese ended up with an Italian name......whoops.....Paulo it is. 

Man that Luffe is one sexy beast. It really is a DS41, lengthened, updated and with what looks like absolutely awesome build quality. Nice to see the top loading (as well as front) refrigeration. American DS41s usually have a top loader but not the European. Galley layout on the Luffe is revised, they have done away with that silly controller at the chart table and ditched the odd anchor stowage. All for the good. Not sure about that stool at the bottom of the companionway but that is pretty simple to resolve and a very minor issue.

Show me where to sign. 

Ah if only.

I have no idea what the Luffe would be worth but I suspect more than I am. There are none available used on Yachtworld.

I reckon I would still be happy with a Dehler but yes the Luffe does go one better and on the basis of the web site it has gone straight to number one on the Wombat list of desirable holes in the water.

Thanks for the links....I think....then again maybe I was better off when I didn't know this thing existed.....

<o>
</o>


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## doubleeboy (Jul 21, 2008)

We love our Dehler 39, marvelous boats. That red thing for sale in Seattle will be for sale 10 years from now if they don't knock some serious bucks off the price. I have seen the boat, someone tried to make a cruiser out of a performance boat, rather goofy IMO. Its been for sale for 2 years at least. I don't know the story of the boat, but it seems to me they would have been better off buying a DS which sets up better for all the add ons than a big wheel, aft sheeting boat with limited space behind the wheel.

If we decide to get something more cruisy the Dehler DS will be on our short list. They are out of bankruptcy now, owned by Hanse and were a hit at the Euro boat show with their new offerings. J&V are designing some pretty nice boats for them.

michael


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

doubleeboy said:


> We love our Dehler 39, marvelous boats. ... They are out of bankruptcy now, owned by Hanse and were a hit at the Euro boat show with their new offerings. J&V are designing some pretty nice boats for them.
> 
> michael


I agree, the 39 is a very good boat. I was waiting for Dehler to update the 39 on the lines of the bigger and more modern Dehlers. Never hapened and I doubt it is going to happen. Dehler is out of bankruptcy but it is Hanse that is calling the shots. For what I have heard, Hanse will make the big boats and Dehler the smaler ones (less than 36ft).

Paulo


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Question

Should we move this discussion over to the "Interesting Sailboat" thread or start another ? 

Jeff_H...you started it, what do you reckon....anyone else feel free to chime in.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Lets continue this over at Interesting Sailboats and leave this thread for a discussion on less expensive alternatives as Jeff intended.


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