# cabin heater ideas



## soulesailor (Nov 18, 2007)

I'm thinking of installing a cabin heater as one of my winter projects and would love to tap into the vast expanse of knowledge of this forum to gather a game plan. Here's the scenario:

I cruise in Maine with my sights on Canadian Maritimes for next summer so I want something to combat the wet, soggy, foggy, drippy, rainy, chilly even in July weather we get up here.

My boat is small (1968 Bristol 27) and simple and space is a premium. I'm going to fit it into my existing bookshelf (with appropriate modifications) so bulkhead or floor mount will probably both work.

I don't want electric or propane or solid fuel.

I'll be installing this myself.

I don't mind spending money but I want bang for my buck.

Any ideas, specific products, links, experiece, precautions, etc. will be greatly appreciated.


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## Idiens (Jan 9, 2007)

That leaves only a few fuels left. I assume your engine runs on diesel, so a diesel heater should work for you. I have a preference for those that heat water and use radiators, as they also heat the tap water. Names like Webasto and Ebersp/bacher come to mind.

http://www.eberspacher.com/waterheating.php?section=waterheating


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## sailor1343 (Sep 6, 2007)

if you are not interested in propane how about diesel? they work quite well and as long as they are vented well, they do not add much moisture in the air. assuming your boat runs on diesel this would eliminate having multiple fuels on board as well.


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## soulesailor (Nov 18, 2007)

Actually my engine is a 6hp outboard which lives in the lazarette so any fuel will be its own system.


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## Idiens (Jan 9, 2007)

There's usually a petrol/gas version of the diesel heaters, if you want to stick to one fuel. But diesel is safer than petrol/gas to store.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

The propane heaters are quite nice, and if you've already got propane aboard for the stove, then it might make a lot of sense.


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## HoffaLives (Feb 19, 2007)

propane really is the best and least expensive option. we have a dickenson newport and that heats us out of the boat in below zero weather. we hang a 20lb bottle of the stern pulpit and it lasts a long time. connections are easy, parts available everywhere, it's safe, you never smell it, and burns clean. 

the only way i would use a liquid fuel would be as a diesel stove, but they tend to be big, ugly and smell bad.


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## soulesailor (Nov 18, 2007)

I am a little nervous about propane leaks and needing bilge sensors for detecting the leaks, etc. That's my only hesitation against propane. I like the inexpensive and efficient part.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

A proper installation is really quite safe. The propane detector is really a safety measure, like a CO detector would be.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

If your initial equipment purchase and installation budget is very low, than I can assure you from experience - forget Espar (Eberspacher in German). 

But, if diesel is your choice and you want the most energy efficient and comfortable heating system for onboard use, regardless of up-front cost, than look very closely at Espar.


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## jrd22 (Nov 14, 2000)

In my experience our propane heater adds a lot of condensation to the inside of the boat, ours here in the PNW really fogs up the windows. It's a Force 10 vented bulkhead mount, fairly old, maybe the new ones are better. I'm leaning towards the forced air diesel heaters, Espar or Webasto.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

http://www.marinestove.com/futurestoves.htm


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## sailor1343 (Sep 6, 2007)

it sounds like propane would be your best bet. that what i use and i have nothing but good things to say about it. i had about half of a 20lb tank and it lasted me a good 2 weeks and then some being run off and on. while i wouldn't leave it run while sleeping i feel very safe with it onboard. my rule of thumb is anything that puts out a flame should not be run while sleeping. but as i was saying, if you don't have diesel onboard, propane would serve you very well.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

If you can be talked into propane, try the one below, the Dickenson Newport.. inexpensive (~$600) looks good and has an clear glass window for ambiance. FULLY VENTED so no moisture issues, unlike the Force 10 that JRD has. The built-in fan, though noisy at high flow, greatly improves the efficiency and effectiveness.

Same as Hoffas, really works well, thermocouple protected for flameout, quite safe and efficient, no stink!


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## soulesailor (Nov 18, 2007)

So venting is the source of the condensation problems I've heard of with propane heaters? Seems like a lot of people love diesel and a lot of people love propane. It also seems like diesel is much more difficult of an install. If I went with a propane heater I probably would build a wooden box on deck and run the line down through the cabintop.


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## HoffaLives (Feb 19, 2007)

soulesailor said:


> So venting is the source of the condensation problems I've heard of with propane heaters? Seems like a lot of people love diesel and a lot of people love propane. It also seems like diesel is much more difficult of an install. If I went with a propane heater I probably would build a wooden box on deck and run the line down through the cabintop.


if by box you mean a place for your tank, NO! wherever you put your tank it has to be where any leaking fumes can sink away without effect. Propane is heavier than air and sinks. you put it on deck, where's it gonna go? kiss insurance goodbye and maybe someone's life. if you have a box it has to be sealable with a drain hose leading overboard. the easiest is to arrange a place for the tank to hang off a rail. you also must have an electric shut-off in the propane line, right off the tank. none of his is difficult but it has to be done right. like any other fuel, treated with respect propane'll do exactly as it's supposed to, but if handled the wrong way, it's gonna hurt. 

propane when burned releases moisture just like you and I do in respiration. any hydrocarbon combined with O2 gives C02 and H20. so a propane stove gives off moisture when burning, but there's no reason to have a propane furnace that isn't vented outside.


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## NautiG (Apr 23, 2007)

If you have condensation problems with your stove, I would be seriously concerned. As stated, water is a byproduct of combustion. If water is getting into the cabin, so are other byproducts including carbon monoxide and carbon dioxide.

I was on another boat for dinner the other night. The curry was delicious and the company pleasant, but I was really jealous of their Dickenson Newport. It was just like having a miniature wood stove in the cabin, and seemed to give off good heat.

Scott
Gemini Catamaran Split Decision
http://nautib.blogspot.com


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

jrd22 said:


> In my experience our propane heater adds a lot of condensation to the inside of the boat, ours here in the PNW really fogs up the windows. It's a Force 10 vented bulkhead mount, fairly old, maybe the new ones are better. I'm leaning towards the forced air diesel heaters, Espar or Webasto.





NautiG said:


> If you have condensation problems with your stove, I would be seriously concerned. As stated, water is a byproduct of combustion. If water is getting into the cabin, so are other byproducts including carbon monoxide and carbon dioxide.
> 
> I was on another boat for dinner the other night. The curry was delicious and the company pleasant, but I was really jealous of their Dickenson Newport. It was just like having a miniature wood stove in the cabin, and seemed to give off good heat.
> 
> ...


That little Force 10 Cozy Cabin heater is nice, but it does not have a sealed combustion chamber, so although it has a chimney, not all the moisture (combustion product of propane) exits the boat. It's not a whole lot better than running a stove or oven burner to heat the cabin, which is to say -- condensation inducing. These units (also now offered under the Sigma brand) are inexpensive, but...

The Dickinson Newport propane stoves mentioned above have a double-walled chimney that brings air down from outside into the SEALED firebox chamber (with a window for that nice ambient flame!), then expels ALL the exhaust gasses out of the cabin through the inner chimney tube after combustion. This is the key to "dry heat" from propane.

We have the Dickinson P9000 (smaller of the two versions) on our 31 footer and love it. Well worth the price delta over the Force 10.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

The three major problems with heaters on boats are moisture from the exhaust, CO poisoning and oxygen depletion. All three of these are virtually eliminated by the proper installation of an externally vented heater with exhaust flue. Propane is a rather wet fuel, meaning that the combustion gases from it has a fairly amount of water as a byproduct. If the exhaust is properly vented overboard, then the amount of CO and water introduced to the cabin is minimal.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

P.S. to jrd22:

Since you already have a propane heater installed, in your shoes I would consider simply upgrading to a vented heater like the Dickinson Newport. With all the plumbing ready to go, it would be a very simple installation. And a LOT cheaper than Webasto/Espar diesel systems.

The diesel forced air or hydroponic systems are probably the best. But if you simply want to take the chill off without breaking the bank, the fully vented, bulkhead-mounted cabin heaters represent a great value.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Heaters*

Have you looked into the "Wallas" They are made in Finland (I think). Cermanic cooktop with a cover/lid that has a fan for forced heat. Lid up for cooking/down for heating. Designed for small boats--diesel fueled-- make sure you are sitting down when you price it!!!


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## soulesailor (Nov 18, 2007)

The case for propane is a convincing one and I'm getting won over, except figuring out where to stow the tank isn't that easy for my boat. The lazarette has my motor and gas tank, the stern rail has my kedge anchor, life ring, man overboard strobe and an 'at anchor' grill. Nearby is the backstay, topping lift (which I ran back to the stern to be near the mainsheet), windvane and associated lines and my solar panel on my lazarette hatch in the shadow of all that crap. I thought propane bottle boxes on deck wasn't that uncommon. Is there no safe way to do this? Figuring a box into my cockpit lockers would be a bear and the drain tube would barely be above the waterline, probably half filling the propane box when I heel. Thanks for all the links and advice so far!


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I am going through this myself. I hate propane on a boat for all of the reasons that I have stated in the past. For a small and simple boat, I have decided that the diesel fuel version of the Dickenson Newport is the way to go in terms of reliability, condensation, safety and cost. Dickenson sells a small 'daytank' for the Newport and you can safely carry a gerry can with weeks worth of fuel as a spare.

While the Espar units are more efficient, any oil heater will provide more heat per dollar and more heat per cubic foot of storage space than propane, so this theoretic increased efficiency probably does not come into significant play on a small boat. Plus there is a big savings if the original poster does not have to install a legal propane system with shut offs, sensors etc. 

Respectfully,
Jeff


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

Our mooring neighbor, a 28' Bristol Channel Cutter, has twin 6 lb. vertical aluminum tanks mounted to the transom in what look to be aluminum mounting brackets (one on each side of the rudder). This keeps the tanks outboard of the boat, so a vented drain is not necessary. You stil have to add a remote solenoid switch, but that's manageable:


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

We made some simple hoops from SS tubing and hung the tanks on the back of the stern pulpit. In this case a severe reverse transom protected the tanks from impact with anything. Worked well, safe, convenient.


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## Northeaster (Jan 13, 2007)

I am also trying to decide between a Newport propane fireplace and a Newport Diesel fireplace. My 30'er already has a propane stove / oven, as well as a Diesel tank, for the Yanmar. I won't be doing much long-range, cold weather cruising, ie mostly spring and fall weekends in Nova Scotia , so in terms of consumption, either would probably be fine.

How smelly is a properly installed modern diesel fireplace, like the Newport?
Is the diesel fully vented (low condensation), like the propane mentioned in above posts?

Any other differences??

A friend has the Newport solid fuel, and since it isn't used extensively - he doesn't mind the stocking wood, and ash cleanup - he loves the heat. I like the though of not having to run a supply line! I am worried about insurance, however!


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

I mentioned this in another recent thread on the same topic, but when I inquired with Dickinson about the solid fuel variant of the Newport heater, they discouraged me. They strongly suggested it was not the most practical nor efficient way to heat the cabin. I also recall that the solid fuel variant doesn't have a window on the sealed firebox, which seems a shame to me since the flame produces a nice ambiance (not just my opinion, many others on this thread have made the same comment).

One of my kids has a very sensitive nose, so I did not want to introduce any more possible diesel odors into the cabin (which can be a "trigger" for anyone prone to seasickness). I have also noticed small amounts of carbon/soot around the chimney caps on the decks of some boats with diesel heaters. But I agree, they probably are the safest and most fuel efficient.

The propane installation is relatively straightforward. However, you cannot "T" off the stove line -- it must be a separate continuous line from the propane locker. The hardest (traumatic!) part is taking the 3" hole saw to your deck for the chimney.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

JohnRPollard said:


> ....The propane installation is relatively straightforward. However, you cannot "T" off the stove line -- it must be a separate continuous line from the propane locker. The hardest (traumatic!) part is taking the 3" hole saw to your deck for the chimney.


But at least the double flue and top cap are included in the purchase price, and not something you need to buy in addition... unless you have an extra long flue. I think the one supplied goes to 30 inches or so.


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## Northeaster (Jan 13, 2007)

Any comments on how smelly a Newport diesel fireplace heater is??
And any other differences / concerns between choosing between Newport propane fireplace, and a Newport diesel fireplace?? As mentioned earlier, i have both fuels on board already!


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

I took a look at the diesel & propane furnaces. One potential issue is side clearances. The propane heater said 2" all around but the diesel called for 6" side clearance. Could be a big problem for some. The diesel also needs a gravity feed tank or else a pump for the fuel.
The propane needs one continous feed line from the tank outside.


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## Northeaster (Jan 13, 2007)

Xort - great info! I will check my possible clearances. Re: the diesel, I hadn't though about needing a pump, but of course I would, as the heater will be higher than my tank. 
Any idea of what type of pump would be recommended?


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## Insails (Sep 6, 2006)

An Atomic-4 with a leaky fuel line? .....


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## CLucas (Feb 10, 2007)

Can't remember where I saw it, but I read of a clever (though rudimentary) small cabin heater solution where someone would invert a large terracotta flower pot over their stove and heat it up. The terracotta retained the heat and kept the cabin warm for a couple hours with the stove off.

As an alternative to the Atomic 4 leaky fuel line idea, how about just inviting A LOT of people


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

This would work, but isn't a good long term solution. IT is a good way to get carbon monoxide poisoning.

The problem with inviting a lot of people over is: 1) No privacy, 2) Hard time finding enough people you really like to invite over, 3) too much moisture from the people breathing, sweating, gets in the cabin.



CLucas said:


> Can't remember where I saw it, but I read of a clever (though rudimentary) small cabin heater solution where someone would invert a large terracotta flower pot over their stove and heat it up. The terracotta retained the heat and kept the cabin warm for a couple hours with the stove off.
> 
> As an alternative to the Atomic 4 leaky fuel line idea, how about just inviting A LOT of people


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## capttb (Dec 13, 2003)

I only need heat Dec. thru March and I've been using a portable propane heater called a "Little Buddy" made by Mr. Heater. Temps only get down to the 40's so just need a little heat after dinner & in the AM 'till the coffee's ready. These heaters are the only portables approved for indoor use as they have an oxygen sensor that will shut them down. You can run them from disposable cylinders or plumbed to a tank, about $80.


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## soulesailor (Nov 18, 2007)

6 inch clearances, eh? That's kinda discouraging; I was planning on putting it in a bookshelf box which protrudes into my hanging locker. I would inlay tile to deflect the heat no matter what. I wonder if I could get by with less clearance because of that?


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

soulesailor said:


> 6 inch clearances, eh? That's kinda discouraging; I was planning on putting it in a bookshelf box which protrudes into my hanging locker. I would inlay tile to deflect the heat no matter what. I wonder if I could get by with less clearance because of that?


Soul
Surf their site, that's where I found the clearances, there might be more info on the options.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

capttb said:


> ... I've been using a portable propane heater called a "Little Buddy" made by Mr. Heater. ..... These heaters are the only portables approved for indoor use as they have an oxygen sensor that will shut them down.


The trouble is that an O2 sensor will not detect CO which can accumulate (and kill you) before the oxygen levels get down enough.

As Rick mentions, any unvented form of heater is really asking for trouble in such confined spaces.


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## Cruiserwannabe (Jan 28, 2006)

A few years ago the wife and I went on a short fall trip aboard the Wanderbird http://www.wanderbirdcruises.com/ourvessel.html and although it might not suitable for your needs I was very impressed with the output and beauty of the little cod (im pretty sure that was what it was ) sailormann posted a link earlier in this post,and I beileve Capt Rick burned compressed coffee ground logs in his unit just cutting small pieces off the logs kept the salon very toasty but again needs to be the right application.

CW


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

Cruiserwannabe said:


> A few years ago the wife and I went on a short fall trip aboard the Wanderbird http://www.wanderbirdcruises.com/ourvessel.html and although it might not suitable for your needs I was very impressed with the output and beauty of the little cod (im pretty sure that was what it was ) sailormann posted a link earlier in this post,and I beileve Capt Rick burned compressed coffee ground logs in his unit just cutting small pieces off the logs kept the salon very toasty but again needs to be the right application.CW


Funny you bring those Navigator Stoves up again. My wife and I have been oggling them for years. We decided it wouldn't work on our 31 footer -- seems like they belong on biggger boats (or at least boats without kids) -- so we went with the compact, clean Dickinson Newport propane unit.

BUT, we are trying to squeeze a Little Cod or Sardine, maybe Halibut into a shippy kitchen renovation we are planning. It's like a piece of art, that as a bonus can keep a tea kettle at the ready or to warm your hands over during winter. Good to hear a favorable first hand report...


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*diesel heater*

I have a SIG Marine diesel heater mounted on my bulkhead. It has a small pump which tapped into the diesel line downstream from my Racor. The heater vents thru the deck via a small diameter chimney and draws it's air from the cabin. The heater works wonderfully and without issues. It has a window for ambience. It uses hardly any fuel. The pump is very low psi and the correct one is important and available from the manufacturer. Some diesel heater require a seperate tap into the fuel tank, some allow you to tap into the diesel line. Check this out before committing. 
An Espar or Webasto heater with ducting would be best in colder climates but cost 3x as much at least.
As everyone has said, AN UNVENTED HEATER IS BAD, DONT EVEN CONSIDER IT!
And no matter vented or not, add a CO monitor in addition to your smoke alarm (you do have one dont you?) It will give you peace of mind if you leave the heater on all night.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Unvented heaters will:

a) add a lot of moisture to the boat's interior
b) use up a lot of the oxygen you're supposed to be breathing
c) possible add carbon monoxide to the air...which is really bad for you.

The moisture build up will require you to vent the boat more, leading to more heat loss... and more fuel used to heat the boat... but venting the boat more will bring in more oxygen and possibly remove the carbon monoxide before it kills you.  Personally, I think a vented heater makes a lot more sense.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

jrd22 said:


> In my experience our propane heater adds a lot of condensation to the inside of the boat, ours here in the PNW really fogs up the windows. It's a Force 10 vented bulkhead mount, fairly old, maybe the new ones are better. I'm leaning towards the forced air diesel heaters, Espar or Webasto.


Yes the Force Ten WILL make your boat very moist because of it's piss poor venting design. The Dickinson propane units are "sealed combustion" so all of the heat but none of the combustion moisture makes it way into your boat.. Not all propane units cause moisture issues...


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## Idiens (Jan 9, 2007)

If you choose one of the "Airtronic" varieties of diesel oil heater, the combustion chamber's inlet and exhaust can be though a balance flue, fitted anywhere convenient, as its force air feed. The air heater's input can be where you choose as well, and you can add a T piece to change from recirculation, for fast warm-up, to external input for ventilation. The heater comes with its own fuel pump, so the tank can be anywhere practical.

I think diesel is volumetrically much more efficient than propane/butane, so you don't have to lug so much to your boat.

Diesel doesn't freeze up so easily, unlike propane/butane. If your propane/butane is not in a heated compartment, but exposed to the winter air, it's supply can cease as its temperature drops. The latent heat to turn the liquid into a gas inside the container has to come through the container walls. So on the coldest of days, when you need maximum heat, is just when its going to let you freeze.

The forced air fed Airtronic (or hydronic) heaters are quite happy to operate underway in stormy conditions. I don't know if that is so true of convection breathing systems, where a back-draft could be mischievous. Also do convection heaters operate at a constant 20 heel? One side of the chimney might get hotter than intended and it has to go through the deck I guess.


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## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

_Diesel doesn't freeze up so easily, unlike propane/butane. If your propane/butane is not in a heated compartment, but exposed to the winter air, it's supply can cease as its temperature drops. The latent heat to turn the liquid into a gas inside the container has to come through the container walls. So on the coldest of days, when you need maximum heat, is just when its going to let you freeze._

Propane stays a gas until the temp drops to -44F. 
At that temp Diesel is more of a solid parrafin candle than a liquid fuel.


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## capttb (Dec 13, 2003)

I may be light headed from a lack of oxygen & Excess CO  but didn't the OP just want to take the chill off a 27' boat in July ? I guess we better stop using those unvented stoves and ovens in the galley also.


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## Idiens (Jan 9, 2007)

I used to run a car on propane, it wasn't difficult to get the liquid in a nearly empty cylinder to be so cold it wouldn't provide enough gas. Even on a warm day, the cylinder would be caked in ice. (Good for keeping six packs cool) I solved that problem by wrapping an extended engine heater hose around the cylinder.

Diesel fuel can be stored below the water line so that it doesn't get as cold as a propane cylinder stored outside. Not that the outside temperature is really the problem, its the latent heat needed to change the liquid to gas state. A problem that Diesel doesn't have.

You also can add petrol/gasoline to diesel to keep it liquid, like the Russians do.


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## soulesailor (Nov 18, 2007)

*final question*

These suggestions and info. are fantastic. You have helped so much! I have one final question to post before I make my decision and begin the work:

Do any of you know/have experience with using a flue shorter than the recommended 4' length (diesel application)? Dickinson says 4' are needed to create an efficient draw; I don't think I can come up with a spot nearly 4' away from my cabintop. This heating business is tough.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Does the four feet have to be straight, or could it include a couple of 30 degree elbows?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Valiente-

Adding any bends will reduce the draft. If you do have to add a bend, using two 45˚ elbows are better than using a single 90˚ elbow. The 30˚ elbows should be fine.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

soulesailor said:


> Do any of you know/have experience with using a flue shorter than the recommended 4' length (diesel application)? Dickinson says 4' are needed to create an efficient draw; I don't think I can come up with a spot nearly 4' away from my cabintop. This heating business is tough.


I have seen these heaters mounted just an inch or two above the cabin sole. Also, when there is no way to get the required 4' of chimney inside the boat, I've seen some folks who have an extension they snap in place above deck whenever they use the heater. This might not work too well while sailing, but shouldn't be a problem at anchor/docked.

If I recall correctly, the Dickinson propane units recommend a 28" chimney, with a minumum safe length of 24".


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## ccam (Dec 17, 2006)

soulesailor said:


> Do any of you know/have experience with using a flue shorter than the recommended 4' length (diesel application)? Dickinson says 4' are needed to create an efficient draw; I don't think I can come up with a spot nearly 4' away from my cabintop. This heating business is tough.


*Not 4'* however, this heater seems to draw fine once it's lit. In force 5 winds I had some problems, but I think that was more on the fault of the charlie noble. I just installed a new pulse pump on this and she will put out some heat once adjusted.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> Valiente-
> 
> Adding any bends will reduce the draft. If you do have to add a bend, using two 45˚ elbows are better than using a single 90˚ elbow. The 30˚ elbows should be fine.


I realize that; that's why I was wondering of the "fudge factor" in getting to four feet of vent by routing the outlet at an angle up the bulkhead as opposed to the preferable...but problematic...straight vertical run.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Valiente-

I think the height is the important part, not whether it is at an angle or not... the height is what causes the draft up the exhaust pipe... I don't think that if you measure four linear feet of pipe is going to work as well as having the CN four feet above the stove...even if it isn't directly above the stove. Even if you're going off to the side, you'll probably still want the 4' vertical total rise.


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## Rockter (Sep 11, 2006)

I understand that solid fuel heaters are best of all for drying a boat.

I have a 3 kW Eberspacher fitted... one of those diesel things. It is working well, and has done, since 1992.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

Rock, 
Eberspacher rocks.


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## Rockter (Sep 11, 2006)

IT's a good unit, but doesn't seem to dry the ship as well as a solid fuel heater, but that means a shimmeny up through the roof!!!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Do a search on "little cod" they have in my opinion some of the best stoves out there....They have a whole line up that will work in most situations. Best looking wood stove I have ever seen...also thinking of putting one in the boat and another in the stabbing cabin.


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