# engine-less



## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

I'm looking for engine-less sailors that can give me tips and tricks for more successful engine-less sailing. I sail in the PNW so its pretty challenging here. I'm not interested in any form of electric motor or outboard, the whole point of engine-less sailing is to be engine-less. I'm currently working on a sculling oar but for now its been push it out and pray  Thanks


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

barefootnavigator said:


> I'm looking for engine-less sailors that can give me tips and tricks for more successful engine-less sailing. I sail in the PNW so its pretty challenging here. I'm not interested in any form of electric motor or outboard, the whole point of engine-less sailing is to be engine-less. I'm currently working on a sculling oar but for now its been push it out and pray  Thanks


A long set of oars.

Paul T


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## rockDAWG (Sep 6, 2006)

I have a Catalina Capri 14.2. Although I have a Honda 2 HP outboard, I hardly take it with me. If the wind dies, I just sit until the wind picks up or some passing by to give me a tow. 

Just bring your cell, portable VHF and SPOT, just in case the unexpected. I have sailed this way for 10 to 15 years. It is totally doable and fun. I have oars, but I am too lazy to use them unless I am in the shipping channel.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Just because you have an engine, doesn't require you to use it.


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

Forum member "chrisncate", or something similar had lots of discussion on going engineless.

SailNet Community - View Profile: chrisncate

Paul T


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## sevseasail (Jan 15, 2007)

I used to do it when I first started sailing. We had the mooring for the boat right off the river and it was easy to get to it with the sails, but if the mooring would have been further into the marina it would have been a different story. 
I see from your avatar picture you are inside a marina.
Imagine tracking in the channel inside the marina in between the docks..... is it doable?, sure, depending on the size of the boat and the space available.

I guess it comes down to how far into the marina you are and how much are you willing to work to get to your slip.


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

I'm doing it now in the Marina but its quite difficult and intimidating. I will be spending the summer in the Islands where there is more room.


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## ccriders (Jul 8, 2006)

Minnewaska said:


> Just because you have an engine, doesn't require you to use it.


Actually, not regularly running an engine is the sure kiss of death.
John


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

ccriders said:


> Actually, not regularly running an engine is the sure kiss of death.
> John


Agreed. But you can sail without it.


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## IslanderGuy (Apr 26, 2008)

I've sailed engine-less quite a bit, but not on purpose... not without an engine, just with an engine that was in "less" then working condition! 

I would love to eventually have the time and skills to go totally without an engine, but for now, I can't, so I rebuilt an engine instead So far it's working much better (knocks on wood)

Unfortunately I can't give a whole lot of advice, nothing you probably don't already know, I'm no expert. There used to be a guy in the Seattle area that organized the Oar Club, a club for engineless sailors, but the site seems to be defunct now. From the googling I did, looks like he moved to Hawaii or something, and no one else took up the cause. Perhaps it was a club of one?

Good luck, I'm interested to know how the sculling oar works out, I plan to build one soon. Seems like a good compromise.

While I am decently good at engine repair, it's not something I enjoy. The other week I was working on an outboard on another boat, when my truck broke down. Twice. In one day. I got them both running, but I ended up singing a little song I made up that went something like "I hate engines yes I do, cars and trucks and boat motors too!"


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

I will be posting the oar results on my blog. The Oar Club was here is Bellingham but it seems all the sailors have shipped out. Interesting point, the Oar Club had an annual race and not one boat with a fitted engine finished it, they all gave up and motored home.


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## Ferretchaser (Jan 14, 2011)

You just have to get good at asking others for a tow


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Ferretchaser said:


> You just have to get good at asking others for a tow


And lucky to have one nearby as a tanker with right of way over a sailboat is bearing down on you in zero wind in a narrow channel.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I had an engineless FolkBoat in Miami when I was in my 20's. I made a very long oar out of a 2 x 4 (horizontal on the power stroke) and some plywood. I used the starboard side winch as a tholepin and a loop of line hung over the winch to keep the oar from wandering. I rowed standing up and facing forward, but the Folkboat has a very deep cockpit. I would tie tiller slightly over to port and could vary the speed and hardness of the strokes to get the boat to turn one way or the other. It was not easy to start the boat moving, and was useless in tight quarters, but worked fine once the boat was moving forward. I don't recall rowing upwind in a breeze but then again, the folkboat was a pretty good light air boat and so if there was a breeze, I could sail her.


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## klubko (Feb 21, 2007)

Sculling oar can do marvels once you master it, but you won't get much speed out of it. Pair of sweeps are easier to handle, but are less useful in close quarters, as Jeff points out above.
Have a look here: A Pearson Ariel Page. The Oar Club guy is known as Amazon.com: Wind and Tide: An Introduction to Cruising in Pure Sailing Craft (9780595217335): Jerome FitzGerald: [email protected]@[email protected]@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/[email protected]@[email protected]@51IgfnCdPFL. Quite opinionated reading, but fun and informative.


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## IslanderGuy (Apr 26, 2008)

Once you said his name, I remembered the Furled Sails podcast did a two part interview with him (that's where I first heard of him) that was fun to listen to. I forgot about the book, I'll put it on my wish list. 

While the Furled Sails podcast is no longer being produced  there episodes are still available online. I may have to go back and listen to them all again as it's been awhile and I', running low on good commute podcasts. Here's the links to the episodes if you want to check them out....

FurledSails.com Podcast #141 Jay Fitzgerald
FurledSails.com Podcast #142 Jay Fitzgerald 2


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## MarioG (Sep 6, 2009)

I never had an engine on my Chrysler C-22, (what a great experiance) then sailed my Chrysler C-26 from Norfolk Va to Orienta Nc (180 miles) when I bought it. 

I don't mind sailing slow, as they say sailing there is 90% of the fun the other 10% involves rum.


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## wrevans (Dec 25, 2003)

I daysail and weekend a modified engineless 30 ft Shield one design from Lopez Island in the San Juan's. I have a bunch of info about sailing without an engine on my blog.

I have been sailing this way for about 6 years and don't row much any more. Mostly it is about having a great sailing boat with the ability to pile on the sail and figuring out how to work with the wind and tides. Great fun and a rewarding challenge. Not for everyone to be sure, but I enjoy it.

Let me know if you have any specific questions.

Cheers and good luck.
Bill


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## WanderingStar (Nov 12, 2008)

I spent ten years sailing two keelboats (20' & 26') without engines. It is challenging and somewhat restricting, but also rewarding. I didn't sail on busy weekends or holidays due to inlet traffic. I also used a long oar, but only in a calm. I found I could manage the inlet sailing with either wind or current opposing, but not both. On the south shore of Long Island summer breezes are pretty reliable. watch for sea breezes that start midmorning and end around sunset. Have good ground tackle. Keep a little food and water aboard, you might be becalmed overnight. Don't push right of way, be safe and considerate.


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## wrevans (Dec 25, 2003)

WanderingStar said:


> I spent ten years sailing two keelboats (20' & 26') without engines. It is challenging and somewhat restricting, but also rewarding. I didn't sail on busy weekends or holidays due to inlet traffic. I also used a long oar, but only in a calm. I found I could manage the inlet sailing with either wind or current opposing, but not both. On the south shore of Long Island summer breezes are pretty reliable. watch for sea breezes that start midmorning and end around sunset. Have good ground tackle. Keep a little food and water aboard, you might be becalmed overnight. Don't push right of way, be safe and considerate.


Lots of good advice in this post, although I would take any wind direction other than dead astern if I have to make way against a a current. Even tacking close hauled as our boat quickly overcomes most currents in light winds with the wind forward of the beam. My typical exit from our mooring is dead downwind against a strengthing flood current. Pretty dicey at times. Or channel is about 180 ft wide and is a run out and a tacking dual back in. The down side is the tourist cafe on the bank that ensures a captive audience should you mess up and go aground.

Such fun.


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## jrd22 (Nov 14, 2000)

Learn to use, and recognize, the back eddys especially here in the islands. From my observations most sailboats just go straight into the main force of the current and come to a standstill or worse without ever thinking about where the counter current is, or at least might be. It can make the difference between getting through the channel or waiting for the current to change. Become proficient at anchoring, that's your last line of defense from going onto the rocks should the wind fail you. Buy more fenders.


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## souljour2000 (Jul 8, 2008)

ICW bridges are an issue for me down here in ICW-ville (SW FLA) but more and more, new high and wide fixed bridges are replacing the low narrow bascule ones...sailing motorless is something I want to practice more...afterall alot of us started this way on small sailboats...now that we have bigger boats it certainly is harder but still very do-able if you put in the time and slowly learn your engineless boat and helps if you already know the areas you sail pretty well...and have tide tables and lunch-hooks (and bigger) ready to throw down...and bring food and water as someone mentioned....getting stuck in middle of nowhere for a day is not for everybody....if you go motorless it might be a good idea to get BoatUS membership...at least for a year...I really should get one finally...My C-40 has a 25 hp Universal diesel I am trying to get running soon. I sold the windlass ...it didnt want to be on the boat anyways... but I doubt I could kedge off being "*****-stuck" single-handed in a 18,200 lb boat with a hand windlass anyways...so just wait for the tides...time is perhaps our most precious asset ...and having the time/possible lost time... to pilot a sailboat without engines is a luxury really...today...in the past, well a necessity of course.....


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

Engine less is pretty easy ('specially with a 2hp), it's using a disgusting composting head that's extremely difficult. 

Best of luck op, just go with the wind and tides and try not to be beholden to timetables. 

Oh, and get good ground tackle including an emergency brake (quickly deployable stern anchor).


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

jrd22 said:


> Learn to use, and recognize, the back eddys especially here in the islands. From my observations most sailboats just go straight into the main force of the current and come to a standstill or worse without ever thinking about where the counter current is, or at least might be. It can make the difference between getting through the channel or waiting for the current to change. Become proficient at anchoring, that's your last line of defense from going onto the rocks should the wind fail you. Buy more fenders.


This is very good advice for our waters. I was once in a race with VERY little wind in Puget Sound. We were trying to get around Point No Point and there was 2knots of current against. We snugged right up to shore (within 30ft of the beach) and the back eddy carried us against the a 1/2 mile or so until we were though the worst of it and could sail again. It was unnerving to be that close to shore but there was no wind driving us on shore and the current was acting to move us along one way or the other and was also not acting to push us onto the beach. So with no forces trying to put us on the beach, we coasted right along it, uphill, against the current.

I would also echo that in our waters, during the summer, there is often a North or NorthWest wind 5-15knots during the day. This summer pattern of wind is caused by the sun heating the land (I believe) and I find that, more often than not, it SHUTS OFF LIKE A SWITCH at sunset. I've been happily sailing along at 12kts and suddenly it's 0knots 5min after sunset. As long as you know the pattern you can use it and try and make sure you're somewhere you can anchor before sunset.

MedSailor


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## wrevans (Dec 25, 2003)

I agree completely with the above post. Most of my rowing the first year I sailed engineless in the San Jaun's occurred because I sailed too late into the afternoon. I quickly learned a sense of timing for when the wind would die as the season and daylight changed. Now I often arrive back home just as the wind is dying.

The advice about hugging the shore to avoid current is good as well. Once the stupid pop rivets that held the gooseneck fitting to the boom failed on my old Bluenose Sloop and I had to sail home with just my jib against the current. I hugged the shoreline going south in San Juan channel with the wind on the nose until I could make the crossing to Lopez.

As a minimum the current is less or zero near the shore but often there is a back eddie. Can be very helpful.


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## WanderingStar (Nov 12, 2008)

All good advice. But do be careful of those back eddies, there's one in our inlet that will put you fright on a shoal.
Our seabreeze is SW, starts on the south shore mid morning, increases through midafternoon, stops at sunset.


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## sneuman (Jan 28, 2003)

dabnis said:


> A long set of oars.
> 
> Paul T


I believe Bob Dylan sang about that:

You may be an ambassador to England or France
You may like to gamble, you might like to dance
You may be the heavyweight champion of the world
You may be a socialite with a long set of oars.

But you're gonna have to serve somebody ...

(sometimes I feel like I'm serving the engine, so maybe he's on to something there?)


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

sneuman said:


> I believe Bob Dylan sang about that:
> 
> You may be an ambassador to England or France
> You may like to gamble, you might like to dance
> ...


I will gladly "serve the engine" when a big ship is bearing down on me and the wind dies. Been there and done that.

Paul T


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## souljour2000 (Jul 8, 2008)

dabnis said:


> I will gladly "serve the engine" when a big ship is bearing down on me and the wind dies. Been there and done that.
> 
> Paul T


 I plan to always have an engine...just want to only use when I really need it... and so it has to be ready to go...this focuses me on the fact that when I use it...it will be needed and possibly very much so...Meditating on that and keeping it in mind is something I can think about when I am blissfully sailing along quietly motorless...or better yet when I have some downtime at anchor...


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

Check out yuloes (sp?) Long bend sculling oar mounted on the stern. As good as a small outboard. 50 ton junks get around with them .My engine less adventure ?? click my name and read 'first voyage'


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## wrevans (Dec 25, 2003)

dabnis said:


> I will gladly "serve the engine" when a big ship is bearing down on me and the wind dies. Been there and done that.
> 
> Paul T


Is dodging large ships a common issue? Admittedly I don't sail in any shipping lanes but large ferries are pretty common place in th San Juan Islands and I have never found myself impeding their navigation at all.

The reason that I ask is that this concern comes up occasionally as a justification for engines in sailboats.

Cheers,
Bill


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## nolatom (Jun 29, 2005)

This has been a fun thread to read. I admire any of you who can row a keelboat of more than 2500 pounds or so.

I had a Marblehead Town class 17-foot c.b. sloop, no motor, low enough freeboard that we rowed her often with a single sweep oar coming in from a race in light or no air. My method was to heel her to the oarlock side to reduce freeboard further.

Don't know if you could do this on your 23-footer. But you have a bit of bulwark, maybe carving an opening to get your oarlock down to deck level, and heel her with everyone you have on board, would give you enough speed? 

Less freeboard = shorter oar = better leverage.


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

wrevans said:


> Is dodging large ships a common issue? Admittedly I don't sail in any shipping lanes but large ferries are pretty common place in th San Juan Islands and I have never found myself impeding their navigation at all.
> 
> The reason that I ask is that this concern comes up occasionally as a justification for engines in sailboats.
> 
> ...


Bill,

We sailed on San Francisco Bay and outside for many years. In the summer, generally you have more wind than you can comfortably use, especially in the Gate "slot" area. Winter time, generally light to no wind unless a storm is coming in. LOTS of commercial traffic everywhere. Much of the Bay is too shallow for ships to leave the channel. For liability purposes they might try full reverse just before they run you down but probably not. It is the smaller vessel's responsibility to stay out of their way, by whatever means. The alternative is getting run down which would complicate your day 

Paul T


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

dabnis said:


> Bill,
> 
> We sailed on San Francisco Bay and outside for many years. In the summer, generally you have more wind than you can comfortably use, especially in the Gate "slot" area. Winter time, generally light to no wind unless a storm is coming in. LOTS of commercial traffic everywhere. Much of the Bay is too shallow for ships to leave the channel. For liability purposes they might try full reverse just before they run you down but probably not. It is the smaller vessel's responsibility to stay out of their way, by whatever means. The alternative is getting run down which would complicate your day
> 
> Paul T


Bill,

Forgot the chart: Chart 18649

Paul T


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

wrevans said:


> Is dodging large ships a common issue? Admittedly I don't sail in any shipping lanes but large ferries are pretty common place in th San Juan Islands and I have never found myself impeding their navigation at all.
> 
> The reason that I ask is that this concern comes up occasionally as a justification for engines in sailboats.
> 
> ...


Definitely an issue here. There is a shipping lane that goes up the Bay to Providence and Cruise Ships that come to Newport all summer long. They will not stop for a recreational sailboat and couldn't if they tried. In fact, I'm sure they assume you have an engine to get out of the way.

Even the tourist day sailing Schooners will run you over. But that's another story.


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> Definitely an issue here. There is a shipping lane that goes up the Bay to Providence and Cruise Ships that come to Newport all summer long. They will not stop for a recreational sailboat and couldn't if they tried. In fact, I'm sure they assume you have an engine to get out of the way.
> 
> Even the tourist day sailing Schooners will run you over. But that's another story.


Generally speaking, I have always considered any boat or vessel twice as long as mine to have the right of way. Maybe not technically correct but I am still alive.

Paul T


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

dabnis said:


> Generally speaking, I have always considered any boat or vessel twice as long as mine to have the right of way. Maybe not technically correct but I am still alive.
> 
> Paul T


Agreed. No point being _dead_ right.


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> Agreed. No point being _dead_ right.


So true, what is the story with the Tourist Schooners?

Paul T


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

I actually could scull the rudder on my Catalina 22 a bit. If the wind died in the mooring field, I could just pump it back-and-forth in big sweeps, and get to my pin (and turn my Kermit arms into Popeye arms).


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

dabnis said:


> So true, what is the story with the Tourist Schooners?
> 
> Paul T


There are a couple of day boats that come out of Newport that scoop up a couple of dozen tourists for a one hour tour of East Passage. Out and back all day long. You might think that two sailboats meetings would honor published stand on rules, but they will run you down no matter who has rights. Perhaps, because they are technically a commercial vessel they have rights over another sailboat, but a stranger wouldn't know. I've speculated that, after a few weeks of jockeying tourists, they want to die.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

chrisncate said:


> Engine less is pretty easy ('specially with a 2hp), it's using a disgusting composting head that's extremely difficult.
> 
> Best of luck op, just go with the wind and tides and try not to be beholden to timetables.
> 
> Oh, and get good ground tackle including an emergency brake (quickly deployable stern anchor).


Would you start a new thread please and let us know the issues with the composting head, brand, problems what you plan to do.


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

David,
Check here: http://www.sailnet.com/forums/general-discussion-sailing-related/86964-what-happened-chris-cate.html


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## Waltthesalt (Sep 22, 2009)

In college I sailed and raced 44 ft yawls that were engineless. We tied up to buoys and it wasn't an issue. I recall a race where the seams opened up and an engine would have helped. I have a 21 ft half decked skiff that we cruise on... a Dovekie. I use 10 ft oars and oarlocks (Bristol Bronze) that are high enough so that I can row standing up and row facing forward. This works well for areas where the tide is small and you're mostly trying to get around the harbor or moorage. Where there are tidal currents of distances involved you've got to be able to sail the distance or have power, my opinion. I've looked into longer oars to use for single oar sculling but they're hard to find. If you're going there check out groups that row longboats or whaleboats, they use long steering oars.


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> There are a couple of day boats that come out of Newport that scoop up a couple of dozen tourists for a one hour tour of East Passage. Out and back all day long. You might think that two sailboats meetings would honor published stand on rules, but they will run you down no matter who has rights. Perhaps, because they are technically a commercial vessel they have rights over another sailboat, but a stranger wouldn't know. I've speculated that, after a few weeks of jockeying tourists, they want to die.


From time to time one meets people that are less than considerate. When they run someone down that couldn't get out of the way I think there is a rule that says something like "a vessel that is last able to avoid a collision is the burdened vessel", assuming their draft or maneuverability allows that. A Schooner is not a ship. Perhaps a complaint to the local CG office might help?

Paul T


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## Domknotty (Jun 1, 2011)

Not sure if i qualify but my sailing depends on engine-less operations OFTEN, I have the worse luck with motors, inboard, outboard, electric...they all seem to fail me at "just-the-wrong-time". I have had to scramble for sail more then should be for any scotch drinker. So what have I learned....1st point - you CAN go too slow....but its really hard to. As long as you have forward movement you can steer, the slower you go, the longer it takes to effect direction so start early. 2nd point- learn to spin on a dime and drop sail...even with very little speed you can usually get a pretty sharp turn. Try it out in an open bayway, use a coke bottle on a string weighted to the bottom as your aiming point and practice sticking your nose to the bottle. (these points are also rescue maneuvers for MOB. 3rd point is critical. Have your rear anchor out and line garbaged for quick deployment BEFORE you come in to dock, They really work if you can get to them and sometimes no matter how bad you want to sail in, you cant.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Minnewaska said:


> There are a couple of day boats that come out of Newport that scoop up a couple of dozen tourists for a one hour tour of East Passage. Out and back all day long. You might think that two sailboats meetings would honor published stand on rules, but they will run you down no matter who has rights. *Perhaps, because they are technically a commercial vessel they have rights over another sailboat,* but a stranger wouldn't know. I've speculated that, after a few weeks of jockeying tourists, they want to die.


Wasn't there a thread very recently that debunked the myth that commercial boats have rights over private ones? The only time when a commercial boat has rights is if it's engaged in fishing thus constraining maneuverability, is constrained by draft, or is in the marked shipping lanes going in the appropriate direction IN the lane.

Being commercial, in and of itself, doesn't give anyone rights, after all, how can anyone tell by looking at a boat if it's commercial and thus know to avoid it? The rules are all about location, direction of travel, shapes and lights.

MedSailor


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

I'm a commercial day sailing tourist ketch and I've never heard of that nonsense about right of way. However, as a small vessel confronted with jerksatthehelm ,two choices; sort it out in court after the collision or follow the rule that says it's not who's right , it's who,s left and use the digit effectively. Avoiding collision is fairly important; shipping lanes ,tug and tow ; no engine ; gotta plan ahead. I sailed Thane for several years out of Victoria and up to Desolation before I capitulated for a diesel.


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## wrevans (Dec 25, 2003)

Many of the engineless sailing topics that pop up in forums have a similar theme. They start out with a, hopefully, honest request for info and viability of sailing without and engine. The topic quickly diverges into the requirement of an engine for safety or some other form of alternative propulsion.

But what I have always found interesting is that a fair number of posts claim the engine is needed for safety but then there are many other posts of peole who claim to be mostly engineless since their engine is so unreliable.

For all the examples like being becalmed in a shipping lane I never hear anyone worry about losing an engine while crossing a shipping lane. A good sailor can see the wind a long way ahead and know how long it will take to cross the lane and what their backup plans are. This is the case for countless examples for needing an engine for safety.

Now an engine as a schedule device... I get that.

Cheers and happy sailing, or motoring, or rowing, or whatever


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

wrevans said:


> Many of the engineless sailing topics that pop up in forums have a similar theme. They start out with a, hopefully, honest request for info and viability of sailing without and engine. The topic quickly diverges into the requirement of an engine for safety or some other form of alternative propulsion.
> 
> But what I have always found interesting is that a fair number of posts claim the engine is needed for safety but then there are many other posts of peole who claim to be mostly engineless since their engine is so unreliable.
> 
> ...


I have lost my engine in the shipping lanes, with three curise ships bearing down on me to boot. I had taken the in-laws out for a day-sail and since there was not even 1kt of wind, we decided to motor over to Seattle.

I was actually in the middle of the sentence "This engine has been really reliabl--- Clunk!" I sucked a 12ft golf putting run into and around the prop.

Since I wasn't crossing dangerously close in front of any traffic (I never do that under motor or sail) I had lots of time to raise the ships on their working channel and tell them of my new status as a "hazard to navigation." They could have cared less, they could see me.

Another time, when the engine did die on me by way of overheating we pulled out our drifter and used it to sail in 2kts of wind, and even sail with the wind forward of the beam, so that we could sail into anchor safely on the one shoal nearby rather than get washed up on a steep shore.

We decided then and there that the light air sails WERE SAFETY EQUIPMENT, and we continue to think of them as such.

MedSailor


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## wrevans (Dec 25, 2003)

+1 on the drifter as a safety device. In light winds we keep ours clipped to the mast ready to launch with sheets setup and stowed. All I need to do is drop and tie off our non overlapping jib and change the halyard, hoist and trim and we are sailing in a different gear.

For our boat I prefer a drifter to an asym since I can sail close hauled. At first I didn't think I would tack this 170% drifter much but now I do it all the time. So easy actually that in really light air we have short tacked back into Fisherman Bay on Lopez Island.

They are great sail to have and add many options for light wind sailing.


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## BreakAwayFL (Sep 20, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> Agreed. But you can sail without it.


Sail without it yes. Maneuver in a modern marina however? That would take one hell of a sailor.


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## Domknotty (Jun 1, 2011)

Medsailor, I hear you on the light wind sailing. I have a small spinnaker I have thrown up in the lightest of winds to give me control of steering (cant steer sitting still) and have made it back to my marina using one, I can single-handedly learned how to take down and put up each of my sails but my spinnaker has seen more "training" then most of them. If you know your gear, know your boat and know your sailing ability (got to be real honest here) you have a better then average chance of working out any situation. This goes for anchoring as well as navigating, you gotta know and be comfortable with your boat.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

BreakAwayFL said:


> Sail without it yes. Maneuver in a modern marina however? That would take one hell of a sailor.


True. My point, however, was that you don't have to be without an engine to challenge yourself to sail engineless.

Personally, I don't get the need to be without an engine.


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## sea_hunter (Jul 26, 2000)

Sailing "engineless" in commercial waters that include, Aircraft Carriers, Nuke subs, oil tankers, bulk carriers, factory fish boats, commercial fish boats, recreational fishing boats, ferries, oil barges, tugs and the like; is categorically irresponsible.


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## Domknotty (Jun 1, 2011)

sea-hunter, you are correct. Sailing in an area you know is high in commercial area intentionally is way off base, but knowing HOW to sail without an engine is categorically important, if not THE most important thing a sailor should do. Sailing has been around for thousands of years and traversed the entire world. there is no place on earth where sailing is impossible giving to responsible planning and knowing how to sail, which sometimes means dropping anchor and other time, not sailing exactly where you want to go. Motoring because you do not know how to sail (which includes avoiding high risk areas) is the epitome of sailing. If a motor prevents one from sailing, maybe sailing is not your thing.


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## sea_hunter (Jul 26, 2000)

Having the knowledge and the skill to sail without an engine, especially when docking is important, yet to deliberately put oneself and others at risk for the sake of ego is deplorable. Head to open waters and knock yourself out, but remember just because you have no engine and under sail doesn't mean you have all the right of way. The joys of boating begin with safety.


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## wrevans (Dec 25, 2003)

sea_hunter said:


> Having the knowledge and the skill to sail without an engine, especially when docking is important, yet to deliberately put oneself and others at risk for the sake of ego is deplorable. Head to open waters and knock yourself out, but remember just because you have no engine and under sail doesn't mean you have all the right of way. The joys of boating begin with safety.


It used to be that having the ability to handle a sailboat was just a skill not a display of ego. I have seen way to many unsafe maneuvers under power to automatically equate motors and safety.

If you operate a vessel you need to be skilled in that vessels operation. And the shear fact that so many people insist that sailing is unsafe without having a motor present means that many of those skills are disappearing.

I personally chose to sail without and engine because I love sailing and I don't care for the noise, smell, and maintenance associated with engines. It's not about ego, it is about joy.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

sea_hunter said:


> Having the knowledge and the skill to sail without an engine, especially when docking is important, yet to deliberately put oneself and others at risk for the sake of ego is deplorable. Head to open waters and knock yourself out, but remember *just because you have no engine and under sail doesn't mean you have all the right of way.* The joys of boating begin with safety.


Actually as long as you stay out of marked shipping lanes, and away from vessels engaged in fishing or those constrained by draft, you DO have the right of way "just because" you are under sail. Even in a marina. 

For review _"The Rules"_:http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&sqi=2&ved=0CHMQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.uscg.mil%2Fdirectives%2Fci%2F16000-16999%2FCI_16672_3A.pdf&ei=BvyyT62_I6aFiAK4_OGhBA&usg=AFQjCNF1qukq2bUfVpD7wPRFC8i1AX3i2A

MedSailor


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

wrevans said:


> It used to be that having the ability to handle a sailboat was just a skill not a display of ego. I have seen way to many unsafe maneuvers under power to automatically equate motors and safety.
> 
> If you operate a vessel you need to be skilled in that vessels operation. And the shear fact that so many people insist that sailing is unsafe without having a motor present means that many of those skills are disappearing.
> 
> I personally chose to sail without and engine because I love sailing and I don't care for the noise, smell, and maintenance associated with engines. It's not about ego, it is about joy.


I won't accuse you of it, but some are clearly advertising their motorless sailing as an accomplishment beyond the ordinary. You are borderline when you associate someone that advocates the safety of having a motor with "many of those skills are disappearing". Not all boats, slips, fairways, marinas, etc can be negotiated motorless, regardless of skill. Try to back us down our fairway under sail with a 90 degree turn and into the middle of a pier between two other boats with a good wind off your stern.

I sail motorless, all the time. No smell, no noise. I use the motor when it is necessary and consider it *safer* than not having one. That doesn't make it unsafe to be without in all circumstances, but it does make it limited. On the other hand, in cramped quarters with commercial traffic and no where to bail out if the wind doesn't favor your next move, is unnecessarily unsafe. I support anyone's decision to do so, regardless. I would also support their right to sail a square rig, when they ditch their motor. Those skills are disappearing.


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## wrevans (Dec 25, 2003)

This is an endless debate and there are much better ways to spend ones time, like sailing. And many of these engineless topics end up in this same place where someone who has an engine in their boat feels attacked or insulted thinking that their skills are being devalued.

But this was, is, a topic on engineless sailing not motor sailing. I could see your point if this was topic on docking under power and engineless sailors stormed in and started question the need for a motor. But sadly that isn't the case and it rarely is. It almost always the other way around where these topics get high jacked and it is the engineless sailor that gets labelled a purist, or unsafe, or arrogant etc.

With respect to engineless skills I will say this. I sail on and off our mooring and in and our of a very narrow channel. Maybe 40 to 50 time per year and I have been doing this routine for maybe seven years. And it is a humbling experience. Just about every time that I am about to pat myself on the back for mastering these routine skills some variable or another changes and these simple tasks become more complicate. Sometime much more complicated.

So I am not saying that those who motors on and off their mooring and in and out of the bay couldn't do it under sail. I just know that I couldn't comfortably perform these skills without constant thought and practice.


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## DivingOtter (May 5, 2012)

engines are like insurance policies- you think they are useless until you need them.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

DivingOtter said:


> engines are like insurance policies-


..... and when you need them, you can HOPE that they'll pay (or start in the case of an engine). 

MedSailor


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## sea_hunter (Jul 26, 2000)

wrevans said:


> This is an endless debate and there are much better ways to spend ones time, like sailing. And many of these engineless topics end up in this same place where someone who has an engine in their boat feels attacked or insulted thinking that their skills are being devalued.


Not really. The OP stated he sails in "hectic" waters, yet still feels he should sail engineless. All the waters from Cape Blanco to Cape Scott inside and out are "hectic". Forget about the mile long Pacific rollers that can overpower even a 20 knot blow. I've seen a NW roller being pounded with a 30+ knot offshore easterly that whipped up 4-5' chop on top of the swell. 12-15 knot rips and riparian outflows intermingle with reactive ocean and coastal currents in areas making pure coastal sailing virtually prohibitive without an engine. Now this would all be fine if you were all alone on on the water; but add a few tankers, bulk carriers and weekend warriors, everything can go to hell in a handbasket in a hurry, even with an engine.


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## DivingOtter (May 5, 2012)

If someone was in an incident with my boat and they didnt have an engine because they felt it was out of spirit, I would be more that irate. On the other hand, if that had one and it was malfunctioning that is the luck of the draw. In my opinion you should have one and if you dont use it then dont use it, if you find yourself not needing it then good but the Army taught me better to have it and not need it then need it and not have it.


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## wrevans (Dec 25, 2003)

DivingOtter said:


> If someone was in an incident with my boat and they didnt have an engine because they felt it was out of spirit, I would be more that irate. On the other hand, if that had one and it was malfunctioning that is the luck of the draw. In my opinion you should have one and if you dont use it then dont use it, if you find yourself not needing it then good but the Army taught me better to have it and not need it then need it and not have it.


Since there are are so few sailboat that sail without an engine you may feel comfortable that your anger will go unused. No so much for a person sailing. I have lost count how often I have been passed by impatient boats under power. This is in narrow channel with a no wake zone and I work very, very hard to be curtious and leave leave plenty of room. Most times I try to stay shallow and I am usuall moving smartly. No matter how hard I try, completely giving up any right of ways, I will still get "nudged" even shallower or worse their wake sometimes lift me up and pushes closer to shore.

And one thing about sailboats that I rarely see mentioned is that they handle much better under sail than under power. I have the ability to back wind either sail and spin our boat around making maneuvers that are invaluable in certain situations.

And the reason that I think this debate is endless, and mostly pointless, is that most of the folks who are sure that engineless sailing is unsafe have never really tried it for any period of time.

I have no desire to change anyone minds, or actions. I am quite comfortable when others make different choices that make them happy. Actually I enjoy the diversity. It is too bad that some folks don't believe that about sailing without an engine.

I ran a poll on my blog about whether readers thought engineless sailing was safe. 12% of the responders thought that it was unsafe no matter who the sailor was or what level of skill they had. There will likely be a time when sailboats will be required to have an engine and sailing will be prohibited inside bays and breakwaters. When that day comes sailing will end for me, if I am not already too old to sail, and my only disappointment will be that others won't have been able to experience some of the joys of sailing that I did.

A shame really.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

wrevans said:


> ......most of the folks who are sure that engineless sailing is unsafe have never really tried it for any period of time.....


Exactly how would you know that?



> ......my only disappointment will be that others won't have been able to experience some of the joys of sailing that I did.
> 
> A shame really.


Every single sailor I know has sailed without an engine (even if there happens to be one aboard). No idea what additional joy you are referring to. Is sailing with no engine aboard, different from sailing without it running?


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## souljour2000 (Jul 8, 2008)

I think engine-less sailing is cool...I am contemplating bringing my 40-footer 100 miles and under three bridges (all fixed) with no engine...but if I do...it will be during the weekdays...and I will have food water and cash for a week or more...tide tables for every pass and transition area for 10 days forward and I'll do it alone...and if I make a mile the first day...then 5 the next...and then another 5 the next day..and then 80 miles the next day when I get into the gulf...that's how it will be..or not...I am fortunate to have a week or more to move a boat 100 miles engineless...Most folks have trouble getting a block of time like thatI just need to get my rudder freed up...there are critters in the rudder port....muriatic acid will hopefully do the trick...but who knows..maybe the P/O will finally send those fuel injectors...


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## wrevans (Dec 25, 2003)

barefootnavigator said:


> I'm looking for engine-less sailors that can give me tips and tricks for more successful engine-less sailing. I sail in the PNW so its pretty challenging here. I'm not interested in any form of electric motor or outboard, the whole point of engine-less sailing is to be engine-less. I'm currently working on a sculling oar but for now its been push it out and pray  Thanks


You may already have this resource, but Jay let me copy a few bits of his writing on my blog. Here is a link to his discussion on building a sculling oar.

Knockabout Sloops: How to Build a Sculling Oar by Jerome FitzGerald

I use a single two piece river rafting oar similar to what Jeff_H described.










Cheers and good luck.

ps... Nice blog


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## DivingOtter (May 5, 2012)

Just last year there was a near collision at the cove I was anchored at. At about 2 am I hear people scrambling and yelling. I came up just in time to see a 28 ft sailboat in the dark bearing down on me. I was able to fend them off by grabbing the pulpit and manuevering them around my stern. After the confustion settled ( 5 people on board )they said their engine had ceased up weeks ago, " but that wasnt going to stop them! " Good idea, sailing into a crowded anchorage at night not capable of handling your vessel while most individuals were asleep. As soon as I saw where they dropped anchor I moved well out of their radius.


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## DivingOtter (May 5, 2012)

souljour2000 said:


> I think engine-less sailing is cool...I am contemplating bringing my 40-footer 100 miles and under three bridges (all fixed) with no engine...but if I do...it will be during the weekdays...and I will have food water and cash for a week or more...tide tables for every pass and transition area for 10 days forward and I'll do it alone...and if I make a mile the first day...then 5 the next...and then another 5 the next day..and then 80 miles the next day when I get into the gulf...that's how it will be..or not...I am fortunate to have a week or more to move a boat 100 miles engineless...Most folks have trouble getting a block of time like thatI just need to get my rudder freed up...there are critters in the rudder port....muriatic acid will hopefully do the trick...but who knows..maybe the P/O will finally send those fuel injectors...


IF that doesnt work my step as a diver would be reaming it out. I hope that solves it and that it is only marine growth.


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## wrevans (Dec 25, 2003)

DivingOtter said:


> Just last year there was a near collision at the cove I was anchored at. At about 2 am I hear people scrambling and yelling. I came up just in time to see a 28 ft sailboat in the dark bearing down on me. I was able to fend them off by grabbing the pulpit and manuevering them around my stern. After the confustion settled ( 5 people on board )they said their engine had ceased up weeks ago, " but that wasnt going to stop them! " Good idea, sailing into a crowded anchorage at night not capable of handling your vessel while most individuals were asleep. As soon as I saw where they dropped anchor I moved well out of their radius.


Your example clearly makes my point on the difference between turning off, or lossing, an engine and sailing an engineless sailboat. I have practiced that same maneuver 100s of times. Why? Because I had too. I started out practicing in a small boat sailing up to a life vest in open water over and over and over until I could accurately judge boat speed, distance etc.

Even now if my mooring pickup is a little off I go around and do again and again until it is sharp and seaman like.

Sailing a boat that doesn't have an engine is all about humility, patience and planning. The peole on the boat you fended off may have not had a working engine, but they were definately not engineless sailors.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Minnewaska said:


> Is sailing with no engine aboard, different from sailing without it running?


Not at all. I think they are exactly the same. Just as walking a tightrope 6" above the ground is _exactly_ the same as one strung between 2 skyscrapers. 

Not having a working engine aboard is _completely_ different IMHO. You have to be more cautious, more aware, and plan ahead much further (which for some IS the challenge and joy that I think you don't understand). I personally believe that the vast majority of us who carry a decent sized auxiliary rely on the knowledge that we can "fire it up" any time we need to, and I think that reliance (conscious or subconscious) changes the way we sail considerably.

I know for me, everything looked different when my engine suddenly died and I had to sail into anchor. I had taken some precautions out of habit, like having sea room, but only once it died did I suddenly have to re-assess wind direction, strength, near-term wind predictions, and likely places to anchor before dark. Before that the plan was "Motor to Eagle Harbor. Don't get too close to shore." After the engine died the plan and decision making became wonderfully complex. "Wind out of the NW 2-3knots with the sun declining. Wind is a summer thermal and will likely die completely in 1-2hrs, which means that I need to find a suitable anchorage, preferably downwind or abeam, and at my current and expected future speed, within 2-3 miles of my current position...."

MedSailor


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

Beginning a voyage in an enginless vessel is a tad different than finding engine failure when you suddenly need it to avoid "unforeseen" screwups. From a safety point , a dependable engine makes things a lot less stressful when dealing with heavy traffic, big tides and rocks. At the least, more convenient .It can avoid being run down at sea while becalmed (Bob Carr's Sirius) As in most things, talking the talk is easier than walking the walk .I can say that sailing the Straights of Messina con no machina (not my boat) was easier than transiting Surge Narrows (my boat) . So viewpoint may depend on several factors.


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## CaptMikey (Dec 11, 2011)

did you ever hear the saying go with the flow? follow the tide like they used to do on old sailing ships. of course stay out of the shipping lanes. wasn't as many boats to contend with in the old world.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Back to the topic of HOW to sail engine-less, I will relay some advice given to me about docking, that also applies to sailing without an engine.

First, remember that a sailboat "going forward" is also "going sideways" because of leeway. Additionally, in our area (above 48N and/or inland) there is a lot of current usually in play. With that in mind:

A sailor much wiser than I was once coaching my wife on docking. I thought it elegant (and still find it useful to visualize) what she said:

"Always remember that there are three directions that apply when you are steering a boat: There is the direction you want to go, there is the direction you are pointing, and finally, there is the direction you are actually going." 

I have thought about this many times when I have had my bow happily pointed 45deg off my intended (and current) course. There have been times where it looked like I was docking sideways because the slip I own is in a channel that can have up to 6ks of current, and on an ebb it's 90deg to your intended course. 

Medsailor


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

MedSailor said:


> .....which for some IS the *challenge*....._emphasis added_


Ultimately, this is the point I've been trying to make. Those that sail without a net are doing so for the challenge, then often enjoy telling of their conquest. I have no problem with a challenge. On the other hand, it is less safe, just like walking the rope without that net. Are there any tightrope walkers that do so without an audience?

I get a chuckle over these debates, as I learned to sail without a motor. Almost everyone I know learned to sail without a motor. There are things that a motor-less boat can't do, regardless of the sailor's skill. Some of them could be life saving.


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## jrd22 (Nov 14, 2000)

Wrevans- my hat is off to you sir. Knowing where you have to sail out of and into, I can only say "Well done". I see you out sailing quite often and I can't say that I envy you having to get back into Fishermans Bay at times, hell, I don't like going in there in the power boat sometimes! For those who don't know where this is, Google E the entrance to Fishermans Bay on the west side of Lopez Island, WA.


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## wrevans (Dec 25, 2003)

Minnewaska said:


> Ultimately, this is the point I've been trying to make. Those that sail without a net are doing so for the challenge, then often enjoy telling of their conquest. I have no problem with a challenge. On the other hand, it is less safe, just like walking the rope without that net. Are there any tightrope walkers that do so without an audience?
> 
> I get a chuckle over these debates, as I learned to sail without a motor. Almost everyone I know learned to sail without a motor. There are things that a motor-less boat can't do, regardless of the sailor's skill. Some of them could be life saving.


This just keeps going round and round but finally we are getting closer to an agreement. I completely agree that there are some things that an engineless sailboat can't do safely. It has been that way for thousands of years. A large part of learning to sail is learning to make safe choices and not put your boat and crew at risk. It is not some daredevil challenge that attracts me to engineless sailing, it is learning about these risks and learning the time honored ways of being safe in a sailing vessel.

But what keeps getting repeated is how motors add safety. How can a device that causes a sailor to deliberately place their boat and crew in a dangerous situation where their safety is completely dependent on their motor. This isn't insurance or a safety net this is dependence. One mechanical fault and this becomes a dangerous situation.

On almost any weekend in the San Juan's I routinely see sailboats motoring along lee shores with their sail covers on. Or boats motoring out of our bay against strong currents in light wind. Combine that with the number of engine related tow calls and the engine in a sailboat shows itselft for what it is. A tool that makes boating more convient.

And again, I personally, don't sail engineless for anyone else but me. I rarely talk about it but I feel the need to support others who might be curious since they won't get much peer support on the forums.


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## boatyardpirates (Jun 27, 2009)

Thank you to the small few who are staying on the original topic.


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## wrevans (Dec 25, 2003)

boatyardpirates said:


> Thank you to the small few who are staying on the original topic.


And thank you for the reminder. I regret letting myself get caught up in the debate and helping to drag this thread off topic.


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

I am the OP but kinda disappeared when this got hijacked into a safety thing. For what its worth I have been sailing for about 25 years, Im 43 and not once have I had to rely on my engine to save me. About half of my sailing has been done crossing one of the busiest shipping lanes in the world often at night. There is simply nothing that will save you from bad planning and poor seamanship. Thank you to the few who have kept on target, I sail engine-less to become a better sailor, my dream is to do the inside passage next summer and yes with no engine.


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## jrd22 (Nov 14, 2000)

barefoot- the Inside Channel should be quite an adventure, how much time are you figuring on it taking? I assume you will not be using Grenville Ch?


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

I have no Idea but I'm Very slowly headed north around the first of April and just might winter in Sitka so I can have a second summer in AK. I don't do very well with schedules or itinerary's. I'll be filming it ;0)


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

barefootnavigator said:


> I have no Idea but I'm Very slowly headed north around the first of April and just might winter in Sitka so I can have a second summer in AK. I don't do very well with schedules or itinerary's. I'll be filming it ;0)


You might consider a long set of oars. LOTS of cruise ships, barges, & tugs, & 
IIRC, the wind blows mostly from the north. Also, BIG currents, which, if you catch them right can help. Let us know how it goes.

Paul T


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## wrevans (Dec 25, 2003)

A bunch of crazy, and I mean that in an idol sort of way, kids did in a few years ago from Lopez Island. You cans read a bit about it here.

the Hunter Bay Boat Project


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

Look up yuloh ,the chinese sculling method. I wanted to do it to Thane but aft cabin and mizzin gets in the way. Lots of 3 AM starts and wind often gets up too much by noonish. I carried rubber tires so I could rub rock walls and log booms. You can hang single piton ( I use logging dogs.)to a cliff till the tide changes. Better than drifting mid channel .


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## jrd22 (Nov 14, 2000)

We might be doing the inside to AK next summer, maybe we'll see you somewhere along the way.


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

I'm working on a 14' sculling oar now, for this summer I might carry a 2.5 hp OB while I'm getting used to the boat  Should anyone run across me on my way up I always have cheap wine and brilliant whiskey and I love to share it with strangers


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

barefootnavigator said:


> I'm looking for engine-less sailors that can give me tips and tricks for more successful engine-less sailing. I sail in the PNW so its pretty challenging here. I'm not interested in any form of electric motor or outboard, the whole point of engine-less sailing is to be engine-less. I'm currently working on a sculling oar but for now its been push it out and pray  Thanks


I just noticed your post. I have'nt had an engine in my soverel 28 for 18 years. I cruise the Key's and Western Carib. 2 big oars lashed to the forward, lower chainplates on either side and stand infront of your mast and you can move round in flat calm. If there is any wind at all you can sail. mostly you need patients and no real sched. When I'm in a pinch I hip tow with my dingy. My oars are 12 foot long and I made them myself. I've found they have a gazillion other uses! Only sail into situations you can sail out of. Big natural bay's, step to anchorages, slack tides, things like that. Nothing wrong with taking a tow to get in, just be very greatful when you do. I hip towed my boat 8 miles with a nissan 2.5 off Marathon in the keys! It took my 15 day's to sail from Maimi to Key West one Sept. One spring I sailed to Isla Mujeres from Key West in 4 day's and it took me 8 to get back and 8 hours to do the last 7 miles! I've found the less you have the less you need and the longer you can stay out there. I have a small but seaworthy boat with a shallow draft ( board up). The engine is a new invention to sailing. I use the hell out of them on deliveries, but never got around to putting one in my own boat. When I don't have a little outboard, I kedge. Row out an anchor 200 feet. drop it pull your self up on it, continue. I've gotten through many a creek that way. Point being there is alway's a way and wind and tide will eventually be in your favor.


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## nemier (Jul 9, 2005)

barefootnavigator said:


> I'm working on a 14' sculling oar now, for this summer I might carry a 2.5 hp OB while I'm getting used to the boat  Should anyone run across me on my way up I always have cheap wine and brilliant whiskey and I love to share it with strangers


Barefoot,
Perhaps we'll spot you this summer when we're out & about the PNW. I'll take you up on your offer of cheap wine & brilliant whiskey - and we'll toast yourself, Wrevens, Chrisncate, & Capt Aaron - as you guys truly have my admiration...and one day I'd like to follow in your footsteps...engineless.


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## wrevans (Dec 25, 2003)

One of my most used techniques for sailing without an engine is using apparent wind to my best advantage. For our boat we probably need 5 kts of wind to even set the drifter and mainsail dead down wind in any kind of chop but closed hauled with the same sails and we are sailing at over 3 kts maybe closer to 4 kts. Knowing this, I try to keep the ability to head up in my back pocket for times when I think the wind might lighten. So I will often sail low of my destination. Falling off during the puffs and heading up as needed to maintain boat speed. This is especially helpful if my destination is shielded by land, which it often is.

I often try to figure out the wind direction and strength way ahead of my current position so I can avoid being in a situation where I need to sail off the wind, especially dead down wind.

Apparent wind is also my ally when dealing with traffic. I like to have the ability to head up to avoid traffic and I try to be at least on a close reach if I need to make evasive maneuvers in a tight situation. I like the fact that I can tack instantly with maximum boat speed and back wind the jib should I need a quick tack in light wind. I find that off wind maneuvers are much more sluggish and don't convey my intentions nearly as well.

My very least favorite sailing situation is sailing in light air dead down wind against the current. Unfortunately this is the situation I face almost every time I leave Fishman Bay on Lopez Island. This adds a great deal more challenge and requires a bit of effort to safely navigate the channel without causing a hazard to incoming boats, and this conditions is more likely in late summer when the traffic is the busiest.

Here is an example of one of these trips a few years ago.










On this particular day the wind was actually quite nice, it was just in a direction that was partially shielded at the mouth of the channel. The tide was coming in pretty strong with about a 2 kt flood with a height of about 3 1/2 ft.

In order to take advantage of a small back eddy and to ovoid incoming traffic I stayed out of the main channel on the west side of the 1 fathom line. The wind was mostly from astern and the current built as I approached the mouth of the channel. Seeing that the channel was clear, and this was my third attempt for the day as it was a busy traffic day, I sailed into the channel. It took only a couple of minutes to overcome the current and sail clear.

The whole time I had steerage with the 2 kts of current over the keel so if I needed to bail out or allow an incoming boat space it would have been quite easy. As it was it was I was in the mouth of the channel for just a few minutes until I was able head up a bit to overcome the current. A few minutes later I was at 2/3 of hull speed about to round the outer marker.

An afternoon return to our bay is quite typical, short tacking upwind with a fairly strong current. Here is a series of photos I shot of a sailboat motoring in one day that shows our typical current.






The challenge on the return trip is that the current would like to send you into the east shore and the docks that line them. In addition the mouth of the channel is maybe 150 ft wide between the 1 fathom lines. But there is another upwind trick that I like to use for this. A lazy tack. I start my approach to the entrance laying a line from the outer marker to the marker on the west side of the channel. Invariably I get headed near the mouth of the channel and need to fall off. Long before I start to feel nervous of the east shore I tack back to the center of the channel back winding the job if I need to. Typically I am right in the mouth of the channel at this point so the next tack happens fast. But this is my lazy tack. Since the current is taking me out of danger I am in no hurry to head east again so I come around slowly. Think almost in irons except moving at 2 kts from the current. Finally I tack back to the east but now I have drifted past the docks and dangerous current pushing ashore. Now it is just a pleasant sail through the moored and anchored boats to our mooring.

The is the part of sailing that brings me the most joy, finding a way to safely work with what you have to get where you want to go.


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

On a real junk maybe 5 men push the yuloh, one man on the foot rope. there is more to it than first look. I wrote a bit called 'first voyage' its on my profile. Only to Desolation enginless but went on to Skagway twice after the capitulation of purity.So easy now with GPS.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

To the OP,

I'm not sure how you feel about electronics, but if they do not go against the purity of what you're doing, you might consider adding a few of them to assist in your endevor. I've had the procession of 3 summer cruise ships come around a corner in desolation in a very narrow channel before and it was quite disconcerting! 

A passive AIS reveiver might be a useful tool because you could see them, and the BC ferries, as they were coming around the corner and before they were coming into sight. An AIS receiver would also calculate for you if you're likely to get within a preset distance of your targets and would show you the names of the big boats in your area. It might be nice to be able to call the Alaskan trawler that might be coming your way by name on the VHF and ask their intentions and inform them of your course. 

Radar, or at least a REALLY good radar reflector(s) would also be worthwhile. When the fog sets in in our area it's usually also when the wind dies. That leaves you floating about. Radar can help you pick out the contacts and sail or row away from them or call them on the radio. At the very least it would tell you when your sound signals were even more necessary than ever. 

MedSailor


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

MedSailor is right. I work on a tug boat and live and die by AIS and radar. The problem on my little engineless boat is I don't think I have the charging capabilities to run that kind of equip. Actually I'm sure I don't. It's those cloudy, light wind, foggy day's you will need it and that's when your solar and wind gen. won't be up to the task. A little honda suit case gen. is handy but won't work if the boat is rolling because of the oil sensor thing. Working on the commercial side I know the mentallity of the wheelhouse, they hate us. " right of way is a myth" It's the law of tonnage out there. You got to be patient and wait to pass through sketchy channels in ideal conditions, I've waited week's in anchorages for the wind to be just right. (Crossing the straits of Fla. from Key Largo to Bimini) for instance. And I alway's, alway's stay up wind of all my targets. Get up that wind with every puff. You can alway's fall off. Stay on the up wind side of channels, entrances etc. "Hug the high markers". The key to engineless sailing is patients and not having a sched. Going when you can not when you have to.


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## sea_hunter (Jul 26, 2000)

A good trick would be to sail (motorless) through Active, Porlier Pass, or some passage of that ilk on a long weekend. The chances of being just another bit of news is high.


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## snider (Jun 26, 2006)

My first three sailboats where engine-less, starting with a Hobie 16 then a Snipe. When I discovered I could get a 19 foot cruiser for $1,000 less without the engine I went for it. We are lucky here in Charleston SC, most days we have wind. In over a year of sailing sans engine we only had to throw out the anchor once in the harbor until the wind built enough for us to beat against the current. 

Most importantly is to be in a slip that is relatively easy to get into and out of. We have strong tides here and it was important to be able to sail out or in during either tide. If it were flat and still we could paddle. Sailing up to and off the dock and anchor were the most favorite aspects of sailing without an engine for me. You have to learn to warp the boat around if you need to be facing the opposite direction in order to get out of the slip. Learn to back the jib if you are starting head to wind in order to get the bow out. It also helps if you can learn to sail your boat backwards. It can be usful if your slip is downwind and the current is running with the wind. You can pull up head to wind and back in, very tricky, but doable. Many times you just have learn to use the tide and wind to your advantage. I would say most if the time it's pretty easy to sail up to a dock unless it's tucked deep in a marina. You need to be able to anchor if needed. You also need a wide array of sails to keep your boat moving when it gets light, or heavy. The Starwind 19 sailed really well so we were able to get by with a 135% and 90% with a double reefable main. I have a 22 footer now and don't have an engine. I don't buy the "have an engine for safety" factor at all. We have very busy shipping lanes here. Once we had to paddle clear of the lane but when you don't have an engine to rely on you are a more prudent sailor. We could have just as easily been in the shipping lane when the wind died then wasted precious time trying to get an engine to start, it could decide to fail right at that point. Even on such a small boat people were surprised when we sailed up to marinas. They always asked, why don't you use the motor?

I had a Beneteau First 235 before our current 22 foot engineless boat. It came with an outboard. our philosophy was to continue as we didn't have an engine. I quickly learned that the only way to sail without an engine is to leave the engine at home. It's to tempting and easy to rely on the engine and start it up.

90% of my fondest memories are without an engine. The only downside in my area is a narrow long deep section of the ICU with a swingbridge. It leads to some pretty nice anchorage spots. The current runs upwards of 4 knots, I would never sail through there. We can get around it if we sail offshore and we don't go there much, so we decided to just adjust our cruising instead of drop $1,600 on an outboard. I'd rather have a new suite of sails.

Also you never have to buy fuel, never have to pay for a tune up, never have to change the oil. It makes the boat so much simpler and for us, more enjoyable


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

Thank you all for so much good info. I'm fortunate that my boat was designed to excel in very light winds and I have no schedule so I can pick and choose when and where I go. The truth is if I had the money I would buy a 74' Morris with a crew of naked girls to sail it. I don't have that option so I will sail with what I have and love it rather than be tied to the dock living in perpetual fear thinking I can buy safety, you cant.


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

Just be thankful. I've done the naked girl crew thing and getting the anchor up at 3 am is really hard. Time and tide waits.


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## minsc (May 25, 2012)

Add Content


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## limpyweta (Feb 26, 2013)

Well, some Oar Club folks are still very much around Puget Sound. Matt Nelson, mentioned in Jay's book, is in the area, and cruised engineless for a bit. One can also search for sailtransportcompany dot com in the Internet Archive for engineless passage making in Puget Sound. It was fun sailing with them, most of the time.


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

I'm very interested in this but couldn't find anything about engine-less passage making on their site?


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## limpyweta (Feb 26, 2013)

I've been aboard during the engineless passages of a C&C 27 with Sail Transport Company, through the ports of Poulsbo, Brownsville, Sequim, Shilshole, Port Townsend, Langley, and Coupeville, in 0-30 knots, with winds in different directions. And I've been aboard with an Oar Clubber on an engineless Yankee 30, from Blake Island to Bellingham. The Oar Club's website, like Sail Transport Company's, is also on the Internet Archive's Wayback Machine, archive dot org. 

Both boats had yuloh-style sculling oars. It was definitely more a matter of timing, good boats surveyed and maintained appropriately, appropriate sails, sail changing methods, and anchoring, weather and water current forecasting abilities, a crew of more than 1, and appropriate planning (ie getting up at 3 am), to avoid stuff like towing the bow from a leeward dock with an inflatable kayak to a nearby mooring buoy, docking at 7 knots, etc. In some circumstances it may have been nice to go into slips on bare poles with two sweeping oars, like pivoting off the winches, mentioned in Jay's book, if the width permitted. There was a lot of mooring and anchoring, or heaving-to, outside of marinas until the weather got a bit calmer. The same kinda thing happened going to certain channels with crappy wind and tidal current.

Sailing in and out of a slip is pretty sweet when conditions are nice enough, thinking of it as a very short dock. One day in Poulsbo, as we were bob-sledding the sloop out of the slip, we saw a guy with a Triton on his jib, sailing around each dock in the marina singlehanded, on a sloop at least 25', with both sails up, like he was tracing his bare hand onto sheet metal with a dremel. I heard it's easy though with the right setup if one tries for like an hour, with something else, like sailing tightly around a couple pillows in the water.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

There is a small engineless contingent at Shilshole, I think they even have a mailing list. (read the rest of the thread, the "Oar Club" is what I was thinking about).

I like sailing on my friend Bob's engineless Yankee 30.


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## mac 2-22 (Mar 11, 2013)

I have a trolling motor 55# trust no wind it will do just fine just keep battery charged with solar charger. 2years sailing with 40# thrust into 20k winds with 2500 # boat again then i used 1kw gen with 2 battery chargers did 2knots into wind. got me back to dock ok.


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## limpyweta (Feb 26, 2013)

ooo! Some of the Oar Club forum is on oarclub dot lefora dot com and voy dot com slash 153904.


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