# Should i use a radar reflector



## Captain milos (Mar 29, 2012)

HELLO FRIENDS Should i use a radar reflector?I have a alluminum mast that is over 47 feet above the deck,isnt that enough to reflect a radar?my opinion is that i do not need one,please give me your thaughts


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## dvuyxx (Jun 23, 2009)

I was just pondering the same thing. Took mine down for the last hurricane. We DO live near commercial shipping lanes. I just wonder if modern day electronics are making it less necessary for larger boats (my mast is 50-ish feet too).


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## Captain milos (Mar 29, 2012)

old-sailer said:


> Are your local laws different than ours down here? We have to have one like it or not.. it's the law.
> 
> It's only $30


I haven't checked the law on radar reflectors,and the 30 dollars is not an issue when it is about safety.MY question was simply if I NEED ONE OR NOT ???


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## celenoglu (Dec 13, 2008)

A lot of countries have rules for using radar reflectors. Some of them requires their use during weather that decreases eye vision. The problem with most reflectors is that they do not produce enough reflection. That means you are not visible on the screen although you use one. 

The active ones amplify and return the amplified signal. The bigger ones return a bigger echoe. But most of the smaller ones are just for the rules.


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## Captain milos (Mar 29, 2012)

dvuyxx said:


> I was just pondering the same thing. Took mine down for the last hurricane. We DO live near commercial shipping lanes. I just wonder if modern day electronics are making it less necessary for larger boats (my mast is 50-ish feet too).


Since posting this I have checked on some older posts,and the concences is that I do need one.Something about the round parts of the mast not reflecting as well.Two are better than one .one on each spreader ,for the heel effect .And apparently there is an electronic version that sends signal back when it detects radar,should be even better!!!


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

If your question is strictly one of compliance, then hoist the cheapest, less obtrusive things you can find. Most don't work well, particularly on a heeled sailboat, whether you have one on both sides or not. The tube style that attach to a spreader are the least effective, I believe. I think the simply fact that most install them on an angled spreader renders them useless immediately. If you hang one of the intersected circles (ie EchoMaster) from a spreader, you will want two blocks up there. One to take the line up from the reflector, then across to another before it returns to the deck. Otherwise, chafe is a real problem.

If you want to be seen, I believe the intersected circles (ie Echomaster) are among the best reflectors or get an active system. Better yet, get an AIS transmitter. Radar is really so primitive by today's standards that nearly all recreational boats are going to confuse an uncharted return with noise anyway.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

The shrouds on sailboats seem to create a blind spot for radar. I have noticed that sailboats appear much later and more indistinct than powerboats on my radar. In the pea soup, you really need all the help you can get. Answer to your question: unequivocally YES. They are a major PITA but necessary. I attach mine semi-permanently with small diam. Dyneema, attached at three points so it is somewhat stable.


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## Frogwatch (Jan 22, 2011)

The best radar reflectors are the corner cube variety (intersecting circles of reflective material) but to work they have to be oriented in the "Catch rain" position and when you see them on boats, very few are oriented correctly. If oriented correctly and weighted so they are always in this orientation no matter how much you heel they are very effective. They are difficult to mount properly. So, I decided to develop an inflatable version like a beach ball only to find that a brit company already had the patent and made them.
NOW, they are available here:
Echomax EMA031 Inflatable Radar Reflector

KInda pricey but a very good idea. I'm gonna get on now that I can.


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## jrd22 (Nov 14, 2000)

I use radar quite often here in the PNW and sailboats without reflectors invariably are weak targets. It's counter intuitive that with a big tall aluminum mast and all the SS rigging that it wouldn't make for a good reflector but the fact is that they don't show up very well. The cheap Davis Echomaster consistently rates "best" in Practical Sailor tests.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

The aluminum mast and its height do not reflect radar signals very well. When the Stealth Bomber was designed it was determined that radar needs a flat surface in order to get an adequate reflective signal back to the receiver. Consequently, that aluminum mast doesn't fall into that category.

Most radar reflectors provide an excellent, reflective target surface, one that can be seen for miles. The signal is NOT protected by the sailboat's shrouds, nor are they enhanced, which is another of the many myths pertaining to those cables. Today's modern 3G and 4G radar systems, however, has the ability to read the miniscule reflected signal, even from semi-rounded objects such as the boat's mast. However, that mast may show up as being similar to a slim piling on top of another, larger mass that could be mistaken for a tiny island or boulders protruding from the water's surface.

Their are some jurisdictions that mandate radar reflectors, while others merely suggest them. The biggest problem, however, is that there are times when commercial vessels do not have someone monitoring their radar displays, which means that even if you are equipped with a reflector, they other vessel may not be watching the screen. At that point you could end up being a boat pizza.

There are a couple of recommended locations to install the reflector--the back stay, and suspended from the end of a spreader arm--both of which are very effective. And, in the case of radar reflectors, size matters--the larger the reflector, the more powerful the signal reflected back to the transceiver. 

Good Luck,

Gary


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## talbot (Jul 18, 2000)

First, let me disclose that I am associated with Echomax here in the states but also a fellow sailor and active SailNet member. Echomax is one of several good radar reflector companies world wide. I agree with almost all the comments above and would like to add some. I think the link supplied for an inflatable version goes to the Echomax 24" round SOLAS model designed more for life rafts than yachts. The proper inflatable model for yachts is EM230i (for inflatable). It is cylindrical and designed to be mounted from a flag halyard top and bottom. It also is a newer design and has higher reflectivity specs then the mentioned EMA03i . Am purposefully not adding links but you can Google it for specific info. Note that is is now produced in bright yellow (not clear anymore) as this helps with visual confirmation of targets as a ship gets closer. 
Secondly, most people who understand the principles of passive radar reflectors will tell you bigger is always better. There is no magic bullet unless you are ready to step up to a 12v powered RTE, Radar Target Enhancer. These are a higher investment but return a stronger signal to the radar, using a much smaller reflector. and also can alarm when you are being painted. 
My personal experience with recreational radars is that they have come a long way in the last few years. But for many reasons they will still miss targets. Almost any good reflector will help a radar spot a target both farther away and more consistently on each sweep. All of the above becomes even more complicated when you consider the pitch and roll in anything but flat water. 
If you want the best performance mounting them one line up to the spreader and two down to the upper shroud and mast is the easiest way to hold a radar reflector in place. You then can further adjust each line to compensate for heel angle.


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## funjohnson (Aug 20, 2008)

I watched eBay for awhile and ended-up purchasing a tri-lens unit for a good price. They seem to rate pretty high in the test, and I think it's worth it to be seen.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

Here is study of effectiveness

http://www.maib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/Radar reflectors report.pdf


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## Tim R. (Mar 23, 2003)

If you run an Echomaster up with a side attachment to a shroud, you can usually get away with a single block on the spreader(midway). This also minimizes rotation of the reflector.


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## jimmalkin (Jun 1, 2004)

I am a firm believer and user of Echomax solid casing mounted to the mast above the spreaders. I have used AIS transponders as well (in addition.) Many commercial fishing boats off shore do use their radars to spot their fishing gear as well as shipping. Additionally, I have found that some AIS receivers have picked up differing id's from our AIS - I'm told it's due to a possible conflict between the way my AIS was programmed and their AIS was programmed...(go figure.) My short take on my experience is that the mast and standing rigging do not return enough clear and/or consistent signal to make me happy in fog or in the dark. Best -


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

Maybe this will help:

Morris 28 with reflector and Catalina 30 without. The Catalina is returning sea clutter at best....










There is a sailboat here (no reflector, no running lights and NOT MONITORING VHF 16 also not blowing fog signals):









This is what the clown above looked like on the radar. He's the little red spec of dust above the 18 foot mark. The two large returns ahead of us were two J Boats from our club and both were flying radar reflectors... The boat to port was flying a Plastimo and the one to starboard a Davis Echomaster.


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## Captain milos (Mar 29, 2012)

jackdale said:


> Here is study of effectiveness
> 
> http://www.maib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/Radar reflectors report.pdf


Thank you jackdale for the link to the radar reflector study which is self explanitary.Information from guys like you makes me wish i joined sailnet earlier.by the way i have sailed on ghost lake before and the water reservoir in calgary.


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## BarryL (Aug 21, 2003)

Hey,

A question I have not seen asked is what type of sailing do you do? Do you make long overnight passages? Do you sail in bad weather? Do you sail at night in crowded shipping lanes? If so, then a radar reflector is a good idea. If not, then you probably don't need one.

Lastly, while I want other boats to be able to see me, my primary goal is to see THEM, and then stay out of the way.

Barry


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## Frogwatch (Jan 22, 2011)

I don't get it. Why worry about angle of heel unless your reflector is at a fixed angle? I suspend mine from a halyard with a heavy weight below it to always maintain the proper orientation regardless of the boats angle of heel.

BTW, I did see the sorta-tubular inflatable reflectors from Echomax but I interpreted the shape as being NOT an octahedral. If it is an octahedral and not a "Luneberg Lens" then I accept it.

I always thought that someone ought to make radar reflectors from aluminized mylar inside a clear mylar balloon. Attach it to a life vest with an auto-inflate helium cartridge and 100' of monofilament line. Pull the lanyard, it inflates the balloon that rises to 100'. It would be very lightweight and tiny.


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## Captain milos (Mar 29, 2012)

BarryL said:


> Hey,
> 
> A question I have not seen asked is what type of sailing do you do? Do you make long overnight passages? Do you sail in bad weather? Do you sail at night in crowded shipping lanes? If so, then a radar reflector is a good idea. If not, then you probably don't need one.
> 
> ...


 I do sail overnight and in bad weather, although I dont sail very often in crowded shipping lanes. So I think, from the information I have recieved, i will try to get a *Sea-Me-Electronic-Radar-Deflector*.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

old-sailer said:


> ...... I put on the long plastic tube reflector just above the spreader. It's neat, tidy and out of the way and meets the legal requirement. ......


If your goal is strictly to meet a legal requirement, that's fine. However, I believe the tubular deigns must be nearly perpendicular to the signal to work at all. Even the angle of a shroud degrades their performance, let alone heeling.


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## meuritt (Aug 25, 2008)

I've got an 80's era Fruno aboard. I am learning to use it by using it in the day time with good visibility. The canal to my dock is more than a mile long. One day I was watching the radar, looking up to see what the radar was showing me and I noticed one particularly bright target. Turned out to be the one sailboat with a cheap type reflector, the other boats around it were not particularly noticeable.

New radar maybe, and probably are, capable of discerning the target better, as Main's posting clearly shows, but what percentage of boats out there have got the latest and greatest?

A nav class I was in made the point that the best radar reflector aboard a boat from the factory is the engine in the bilge, mostly shielded by the water.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

The new 3G and 4G radar systems are absolutely awesome. Take a look at Broadband 3G

Gary


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## Ilenart (Jul 23, 2007)

*Why I do not bother with a radar reflector*

After reading the report of the sinking of the yacht Ouzo I have never bothered with a radar reflector. There are plenty of other reports of collisions where ships' watchofficers were not looking at the radar (ie Ella Pink Lady collision with Silver Yang in 2009).

I assume that you are invisible to these ships and you need to avoid them.

Ilenart

NB: in my area these is no legal requirement

Ouzo report


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## Halberdier (May 15, 2009)

Does Heeling affect the efficiency of a radar reflector.

I would say no, the cells are 90 degrees and symmetrical and designed to reflect the signal back no matter the angle. 

If heel affected efficiency, then one could also say the angle of the boat with the radar to the sailboat's heading would also affect the efficiency. And that's not the case.

Where's the input form civilian and military radar engineer experts on the effect of heeling?


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## Halberdier (May 15, 2009)

I miss-spoke - I should have studied the UK tests first. Hell does reduce efficiency.


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## PeterSailer (Mar 20, 2010)

Would you need a radar reflector on a steel sailboat? or is the steel hull good enough?
Or maybe the hull it self is too low in the water to get picked up properly?

In the older days they used to fill up their wooden mast with aluminium foil and this was supposingly better than the radar reflecter that existed in that time, I would guess that it's still better than the modern reflectors.

Pierre

Pierre


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