# Grounded and Lost Hunter 44 on Mississippi River on Great Loop



## midwesterner

What do people think will happen with this insurance claim? There was a 44 ft Hunter sailboat recently lost on the St Louis portion of the Mississippi River, of the Great Loop.

The problem started back on Oct. 5, when Michael Weber, a retired businessman and former Marine, and his girlfriend missed the exit for the Chain of Rocks navigation channel about three miles above St. Louis and kept going down the river until they actually hit the rocks. The St. Louis Fire Department rescued both of them, but their boat, named _White Widow_, was stuck.

The guy was traveling from Michigan around the Great Loop, trying to get his boat down to Mobile Alabama and out to the Gulf. Just above St. Louis he missed the entry into the Army Corps of Engineers barge canal that would have taken him through lock number 26. 

He ended up going down the wild main river channel, that is not maintained for river boat traffic. Either he didn't know where he was headed, or the current took him down faster than he could motor back up river. He ended up grounding his boat on one of the shoals in that area, caused by a small series of low rocky waterfalls called The Chain of Rocks. 
The local water rescue crew of the St. Louis Fire Department managed to pull him and his girlfriend off the boat. He got a Boat Tow US crew to come but they did not have any boat powerful enough to motor upriver against the current, and dislodge him from the rocks. They considered a barge and a crane, but the current was too swift, and the water too shallow,















to get it stabilized and get him off. Then a storm came along, water rose, and one morning his boat was no longer there, and has not yet been found.

This cut off to the East, through the barge canal, is covered extensively in all of the guides to traveling the Great Loop, and is shown on charts. His boat got grounded right about where a major caution symbol is on the charts.

Considering this was a major navigational error on the part of the skipper, will his insurance pay for the loss of his boat, or will he be just out of luck because he didn't follow navigational guides?


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## paulk

Photo looks like about 10 knots of current. That would be difficult to motor against. Even anchoring - if it held- would be tricky if something like a tree came down the river at you. Sorry they missed the canal.


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## MarkofSeaLife

Theres no mast on it... maybe they thought without the mast they could scoot down under the bridges?


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## Don L

midwesterner said:


> Considering this was a major navigational error on the part of the skipper, will his insurance pay for the loss of his boat, or will he be just out of luck because he didn't follow navigational guides?
> [/QU
> 
> Of course they will. If insurance excluded “mistakes” what good would it be?


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## midwesterner

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Theres no mast on it... maybe they thought without the mast they could scoot down under the bridges?


That's typically what "Loopers" do to get a sailboat around the Great Loop. You can sail all over the Great Lakes but they have the mast taken down in Chicago before motoring under the bridges on the Illinois River and then the St. Louis area bridges. Then they step the mast again in Mobile. Many mount the mast on a cradle on deck. This guy must have shipped his south. Now he has a mast for a Hunter 44, but not the boat.


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## Davil

checked different languages, all feel the same about this experience.

bummer 
merde 
carajo 
pestato una merda
Ruso: дерьмо


Croata sranje


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## Overdue

Your own words "... major navigational error on the part of the skipper..." , amounts to _negligence_, which is covered by insurance. Insurance policies usually have exclusions for "intentional acts", so the insurance claim would only be denied if there was evidence that he knew what he was doing. Intentional acts leading to insurance claims usually constitute insurance fraud, so the actor's insurance claim is not only denied, but he/she faces criminal felony charges with possible prison.


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## SanderO

This looks like a case of gross negligence or incompetence. One needs to study the charts and when navigating channels make certain you are following them and in safe water. Will they get another boat? Has he learned a lesson? He's not the sort of person you want running a boat because he is not only a danger to himself and his crew but other sailors.


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## Minnewaska

No way we can answer the question of whether the claim would be covered. Negligence and gross negligence are very different things and are defined terms. Consequential damage is also defined in many policies, which is a loss caused as the consequence of not properly maintaining something, for example. What the policies are trying to say is if you do nothing to avoid a known loss potential, you can not ask the insurance company to clean up your mess. There is a similar concept in most homeowners policies. You are required to mitigate a loss. If a tree falls through your roof, then it rains for two days, before you remove it, you are expected to have covered the roof, before more damage is caused. They aren't going to pay for the flood, if you did nothing to mitigate it. 

Navigational errors would surprise me if they were a problem, unless the insurance company could establish an unlikely scenario where they were actively warned and decided to go for it anyway. Who knows the circumstances. Mistakes are made. People get tired.

In the end, different insurance companies have different approaches to claims. It shouldn't come as a surprise that those with razor thin prices on premiums, often try to protect their thin margins by scrutinizing claims. Those that got paid more, may be less concerned about paying out. A good marine insurance broker knows which is which. Saving 15% in 15 minutes is not how one should buy insurance. Best value is not always the lowest price. Drives me a little nuts, when people give their personal experience as an indication. It's just an anecdote. Each circumstance and each State is different.


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## Arcb

We usually lose a sailboat down the rapids every year or so here. It's a hazard of river sailing. Engine failure, fouled rig, navigation errors can all contribute. You are often crowded by commercial traffic.

Suck a bag or wrap a prop on the ocean? Heave to or drift and fix it. Suck a bag or wrap a prop in the wrong place on a big river? Things can go sideways quick.

I don't know if the boats insurance will cover that situation or not, but I would say it's at least possible. Go out in a snow storm in your car and slide off the road your insurance is probably going to cover it


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## Arcb

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Theres no mast on it... maybe they thought without the mast they could scoot down under the bridges?


Probably had it shipped. Mast overhang can be a real pain in locks and marinas. Can't pivot off etc.


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## Johncc

There but for the grace of God go I.


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## Davil

Johncc said:


> There but for the grace of God go I.


=================
totally agree
excellent choice of words, you have bested my previous list!!!!
congratulations


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## Arcb

A couple of shots of a similar cut we have in our neck of the woods. Big river with rapids and a narrow canal that every one needs to squeeze over into. 

This first shot the ship over taking me is squeezing me over onto the river bank, my prop wash was muddy. Being under 20 meters, I am obligated to not impede his navigation in a narrow channel. He is about 700 feet long.










This next shot shows the overtaking guy had no choice but to squeeze me, because he is getting squeezed by another big ship exiting the canal. Now, I have no idea if the guy with the Hunter was distracted by commercial traffic or not, but it's a possibility so I am happy to give him the benefit of the doubt because I don't know how much he had on his plate when he missed the cut


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## SanderO

YIKES.... insane to try to navigate in such narrow channels with commercial traffic like this. Probably full of coal or some dirty fuel


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## Davil

unfortunately cannot apply the sanity test to boat owners


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## Jeff_H

That is a sad story indeed. Who knows what really happened and why it happened, and whether it will be covered by insurance.

In the absence of details, its easy to throw stones, but living in this glass house I am not in a position to do so. After all, I had a similar thing happen to me roughly 15 years ago except that I did not lose the boat. I had been cruising in the southern part of the Bay for the first time and had planned to duck into the Great Wicomico River. I had just gotten a new handheld chart plotter. It was my first chart plotter and I was using it for the first time. I had originally planned to duck into Mill Creek at the mouth of the Great Wicomico River and laid out a route to do that on the chart plotter. But the weather had turned really ugly during the trip down and so I decided to duck into Reedville instead since it looked like Mill Creek would not be well protected from the driving wind and wave action.

Before entering the river I had looked at my paper chart to better understand what to expect and decided that Reedville looked pretty easy to get into, Before leaving Annapolis a week before, I had seen a notice to mariners that there were changes to a couple marks that year. They did not seem consequential (cans and nuns changed to day markers and one or two added or removed) I did not have the changes marked on my paper chart since I had not planned to go into Reedville and also did not have the NTM onboard to check them.

I entered the river in a mix of drizzle punctuated with short bursts of some serious driving rain. That made for a very dark night with crummy visibility. Shortly before the turn towards Reedville, I was hit by a bout of denser rain, and tossed the paper chart into the cabin to keep it protected, and so was now counting on the handheld zoomed out just enough to find the next mark while still seeing the depths around me. Slowly, I passed what I thought was the split in the river and I wend my way into what I thought was .Cockrell Creek into Reedsville.

Out in the Bay, I had memorized the generalities of the passage up Cockrell Creek with a hard turn to port, around a point, then a hard turn to starboard around a point, and then a turn to port before getting to the fat spot where I wanted to anchor., While the distances all seemed much longer than I expected, I wrote that off to going slowly against an adverse current. Sure enough there was a turn to port, then a turn to starboard and then a turn back to port. The marks matched the chart plotter and the depths on the depth sounder matched the depths on the chart plotter, so all seemed about right, But then the rain stopped and I could see a bridge across the river maybe a half mile up ahead,

"Holy smokes, a bridge? what bridge is that? I don't remember seeing a bridge."

So I stopped the boat and dove into the cabin to grab the chart. Sure enough, it became quickly evident that I had missed the turn into to Cockrell Creek and had gone up the Great Wicomico several miles further than I should have. Other than an extra hour motoring in the rain and a further delayed dinner, there was no harm and no foul. But there sure could have been.

As we all know- If its going to happen, it is going to happen out there.....

Jeff


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## Davil

Jeff_H said:


> That is a sad story indeed. Who knows what really happened and why it happened, and whether it will be covered by insurance.
> 
> As we all know- If its going to happen, it is going to happen out there.....
> 
> Jeff


=============================
were you alone?


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## MarkofSeaLife

SanderO said:


> YIKES.... insane to try to navigate in such narrow channels with commercial traffic like this.


Go to Europe 😂😂😂😂😂


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## Jeff_H

Davil said:


> =============================
> were you alone?


Yes


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## Davil

those are tough navigating situations
few years ago since I live in NC thought will go south for the winter via ICW.
after a week found it impossible for one person to keep an eye on the markers, the chart plotter, the depth finder, never mind a paperchart either on the nav station below or trying to unfold it on the cockpit.
Turned back.


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## Arcb

SanderO said:


> YIKES.... insane to try to navigate in such narrow channels with commercial traffic like this.


This is what the Great Loop is. About 6000 miles of it. St Lawrence Seaway/Great Lakes, Mississipi, Gulf Coast ICW, Atlantic Coast ICW, New York State Canals. Have to cover about 500 miles a month to stay in season. 

Its right on the top of my list of big trips when I find the time.


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## Davil

need the right boat
at least two people
people like it








Top 10 Things to Do on the Great Loop


The Great Loop is so much more than just cruising from one place to another. Here's our top 10 activities.




www.lifeonsweetday.com


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## Skipper Jer

Don't always believe your chart plotter. Morning after a front came thru i rounded a corner in the ICW to see a sea of red and green bouys. It looked like someone had tossed a box of red and green Christmas ornaments out on the water. All mixed up. I chocked that up to the hairy night before thinking the storm had broke some of the markers loss, so I depended on the chart plotter. Plotter indicated channel was to port, off I went only to run aground on an ebbing tide. The bottom was sand, I could see it clearly as the boat leaned over. No problem, its lunch time anyway and we aren't going anywhere for the next 4 to 5 hours. Beware of Lockwoods Folly Inlet on the ICW.


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## Davil

Skipper Jer said:


> Don't always believe your chart plotter. Morning after a front came thru i rounded a corner in the ICW to see a sea of red and green bouys. It looked like someone had tossed a box of red and green Christmas ornaments out on the water. All mixed up. I chocked that up to the hairy night before thinking the storm had broke some of the markers loss, so I depended on the chart plotter. Plotter indicated channel was to port, off I went only to run aground on an ebbing tide. The bottom was sand, I could see it clearly as the boat leaned over. No problem, its lunch time anyway and we aren't going anywhere for the next 4 to 5 hours. Beware of Lockwoods Folly Inlet on the ICW.


============
good luck
I ran aground looking at a red marker firmly planted on a sand beach!!!!
share your thoughts, is almost like been in Mexico, the traffic lights and ICW markers? merely suggestions.


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## shoffman57

More ifost Dispatch interview: RE: White Widow at Chain of Rocks t. LOUIS — Michael Weber and his girlfriend were embarking on the sailing trip of a lifetime, when — like many a sailor before them — the mighty Mississippi River left them high and dry just north of downtown St. Louis. Weber, 63, a retired Marine and former businessman from southwest Michigan, was taking his 44-foot sailboat, the “White Widow,” down the river for what was supposed to be a yearlong trip to the Florida Keys and Bahamas. “I was just chasing the dream in my retirement,” Weber said. “I’d been preparing for this trip for two years.”But Weber’s dream was at least temporarily dashed when on the afternoon of Oct. 5 his Hunter 44 DS sailboat became firmly stuck on a 10-foot Chain of Rocks river dam. And nearly three weeks later, it’s still there. To the wonder of many locals, Weber’s boat has remained marooned in the middle of the Big Muddy just south of the Chain of Rocks Bridge while his insurance companies haggle over what it will take to remove the vessel from the treacherous stretch.“It’s a beautiful boat,” Weber said this week. “I just hope I get it back soon.” Trip from HellThe back of the sailboat lists its home port as Hell, Michigan. “That’s a real town, but I actually live a little bit out from Hell,” Weber said. “But that sounded better on the boat, and living in Michigan in the winter is a kind of hell. I was ready for some southern exposure.”Weber said he’s been boating and sailing most of his life but has stayed on the open waters of Lake Michigan and the ocean. “I’m not a river boat guy,” Weber said. “But we figured out going down the Mississippi was a convenient way to get to the ocean and the Florida Keys quicker.” Weber and his girlfriend left Sept. 28 from Chicago. The trip began as relaxingly as they had imagined, short of a run-in with five jumping carp that flopped into the boat’s dinghy near Peoria, Weber said. But the couple really ran into trouble when Weber missed an exit sign for a canal that allows boaters to navigate around the river’s rough terrain and concrete dams at the Chain of Rocks.“I thought it was a sign for a turn into a marina or something like that,” Weber said. Weber continued on and said he spotted no warning signs or buoys before the dam and rocky area.“By the time I got up to the rocks, the current was very strong, and it’s a sailboat, so I only have a 56-horsepower diesel engine,” he said. “So I crammed on the reverse, but it can’t do much.” The boat was swept up and pushed sideways by the current.“One thing I know is you don’t want to go down a river sideways,” Weber said. “So I knew we were in trouble. I coasted and ended up stuck there with no way of getting off.”Weber was hesitant to leave his boat but called for a rescue from the St. Louis Fire Department Water Rescue and U.S. Coast Guard. A helicopter from TV news station KTVI (Channel 2) captured their escape from the White Widow. “I looked up and was like, ‘Really? The news helicopter?’” Weber said. “I knew then people are going to wonder what idiot put that boat there. It’s humbling and embarrassing, but, you know, I made a mistake and I’m owning up to it.”No movementWeber said it’s going to take a barge, a crane and a tugboat to free his beloved sailboat. A crew of towboats attempted to remove the boat right after Weber got stuck, but it became clear a crane was needed to lift the boat off the dam. A barge with a crane arrived on Oct. 18 from Florida to finish the job, but Weber’s insurance carrier, Progressive, pulled the plug on the operation. “They got the maritime lawyers involved, and there were concerns about their liability,” Weber said. Weber said he watched from land when the companies called off the attempt to get the boat, while onlookers took drone footage of the vessel and wondered about who could have gotten the boat stuck like that. “I didn’t tell them it was my boat,” Weber said laughing. “I wanted to stay incognito.” Now though, Weber is worried that the longer the boat remains stuck, the more damage the $130,000 vessel might take. “I know at least we have a lovely pot of au gratin potatoes that’s now splattered on the floor, so I’m sure it’s not smelling great,” he said. “Besides that, I don’t see any major damage from the exterior.” Weber, who is back home in Michigan, said most of his possessions, including nearly all his clothes and his guitars, remain in the boat. “I could really use a guitar right now with all this going on,” he said. “I'm not a millionaire. This was where I am planning to live for the next year, and basically everything I have is in there.” Weber is hoping a third attempt to free the White Widow will happen in the next week, and he is optimistic it might still run. Once it's unstuck, repaired and cleansed of potatoes au gratin, Weber plans to continue his voyage to the Bahamas. “I really put the last couple years of my life into this,” he said. “I’m not giving up on the dream yet.”


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## Arcb

Bummer. Missed the sign for the cut. A few take aways.

1) before embarking on a major voyage in unfamiliar waters, it's worth while to make a detailed voyage plan and make notes about known hazards in a format that is easily accessible on the water.

2) in inland or near coastal waters, review the days passage and make note of critical course alterations and known hazards, including weather.

3) leverage technology. A $30 autoroute app could alert a skipper to a major river hazard.


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## Davil

add my hopes to all others wishing him well.
surely he did not deserve this.


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## tempest

midwesterner said:


> Then a storm came along, water rose, and one morning his boat was no longer there, and has not yet been found.


I wondered at the time, how a 44 boat disappeared. So it's Great news that it survived and he has a chance to get her back. !! 

Challenging recovery. Barge, Tug and Crane make sense, How to stabilize them in the current and then getting lifting straps on her, Tricky. If insurance co. backs out, does this become a salvage claim?


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## 4arch

tempest said:


> I wondered at the time, how a 44 boat disappeared. So it's Great news that it survived and he has a chance to get her back. !!


A storm washed the boat away subsequent to the interview given above and it hasn't been located or recovered. Probably fully submerged and resting on the bottom by now. Some of the last photos taken before that show the bow submerged so there was never really a chance it would have been pulled off without significant damage to the hull, keel, rudder, and running gear.


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## Minnewaska

4arch said:


> A storm washed the boat away subsequent to the interview


Since the insurance company reportedly called off the early recovery, one might expect there to be a liability beyond just claims coverage.


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## SkiSteve

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Theres no mast on it... maybe they thought without the mast they could scoot down under the bridges?


The mast always has to be down for the river sections. I live in Stl, Chain of Rocks and barge canal are well known here, I was amazed somebody missed the turn.


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## Skipper Jer

You would think the boat could be spotted by following the oil/fuel slick back up river.


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## midwesterner

No, it probably got holes torn in the bottom rocking around on the rocks for 2 weeks, then got blown loose by the storm and sank. This is on the very muddy Old Man River Mississippi. The water is heavily silted, and already has plenty of diesel fuel floating on the surface. And the boat could have sank with the fuel tank in tact, so the oil spill will be very slow and gradual. Most of the water in that Wild on dredged part of the river is 10 ft. The boat will appear sometime next summer when the Army Corps of Engineers lets the water level drop some.


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## LaPoodella

Arcb said:


> A couple of shots of a similar cut we have in our neck of the woods. Big river with rapids and a narrow canal that every one needs to squeeze over into.
> 
> This first shot the ship over taking me is squeezing me over onto the river bank, my prop wash was muddy. Being under 20 meters, I am obligated to not impede his navigation in a narrow channel. He is about 700 feet long.
> 
> View attachment 141283
> 
> 
> This next shot shows the overtaking guy had no choice but to squeeze me, because he is getting squeezed by another big ship exiting the canal. Now, I have no idea if the guy with the Hunter was distracted by commercial traffic or not, but it's a possibility so I am happy to give him the benefit of the doubt because I don't know how much he had on his plate when he missed the cut
> View attachment 141284


Is the traffic as heavy on Sundays? I went through shipping channels off NYC once and was warned like crazy about how hard it would be and to keep alert and so on and on. But we happened to go through in the wee hours of Sunday morning and there wasn't any commercial traffic. I wonder if you could schedule your navigation for light traffic times and when those might be. Of course, currently there probably aren't any light traffic times because of the Covid shipping catch-up, but normally...?


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## Arcb

Commercial traffic never really slows down here. In a lot of ways I prefer the commercial traffic to the week end warriors. We have a summer spot on this section of river so we are out sailing with the ships all the time. Most of the time they don't really bother us. Kids like seeing them.


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## s_ruffner

Heh, this is timely because I am in STL (just now leaving) for a conference and was up in the arch on Wednesday, marveling at a sailboat (no guess as to size, but 30-40' seems reasonable) tootling along down the river (with the mast up!). I wouldn't have though the air draft of the bridges would allow for that, but guessed that it must below a certain point - haven't had a chance to pull up the ENC viewer yet and check things out more.

I went looking for information about what is considered the "fall line" for the Mississippi, and it seems like (from descriptions) STL is situated more or less at the Fall Line (and the confluence of Missouri and Mississippi) - is that right? Obviously the river is so heavily engineered as to render the idea of a single fall line irrelevant.


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## TurAelin

SanderO said:


> YIKES.... insane to try to navigate in such narrow channels with commercial traffic like this. Probably full of coal or some dirty fuel


Been there, done that. Shipping traffic has to be dealt with the same as weather... not a damn thing you can do about it and it can force you into a bad spot. I watch the AIS, radar and keep the Mark I eyeballs scanning to try to predict and react in a timely manner.

Also, just curiosity... but what does it matter what they were carrying? How does that impact this situation at all?
Not one bit that's how. A ship is a ship irregardless of cargo, and they cannot turn or stop in any reasonable amount of time... smaller boats can.


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## SanderO

TurAelin said:


> Been there, done that. Shipping traffic has to be dealt with the same as weather... not a damn thing you can do about it and it can force you into a bad spot. I watch the AIS, radar and keep the Mark I eyeballs scanning to try to predict and react in a timely manner.
> 
> Also, just curiosity... but what does it matter what they were carrying? How does that impact this situation at all?
> Not one bit that's how. A ship is a ship irregardless of cargo, and they cannot turn or stop in any reasonable amount of time... smaller boats can.


doesn't make a difference... just bitching


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## TurAelin

SanderO said:


> doesn't make a difference... just bitching


OK, I get that I guess. I disagree, as it was not pertinent to the discussion but whatever... I just have reached my personal limit on Politics and all the Climate BS.
I do however accept and support your right to ***** all you want. Gods know I do.
The wife says I'm a Level 5 Curmudgeon... =]


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## TurAelin

That's interesting... the Censors accept the word "bitching" but not the word "*****"...
Guess Al Gorythm doesn't like female dogs... LOL


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## Skipper Jer

TurAelin said:


> That's interesting... the Censors accept the word "bitching" but not the word "***"...
> Guess Al Gorythm doesn't like female dogs... LOL


Probably whole bunch of words Al doesn't like. Maybe I'll start a thread titled "Words Al won't allow"


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## Minnewaska

Skipper Jer said:


> Probably whole bunch of words Al doesn't like. Maybe I'll start a thread titled "Words Al won't allow"


Let's try George Carlin's seven dirty words.......

edit.... nevermind. More of them made it through that I expected.


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## TurAelin

OMGLOL


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## eherlihy

I stumbled over a YouTube video of the boat when it was on the rocks. While watching the video I noticed a nice Mantus anchor sitting on the bow...


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