# Beating to windward



## rlltrash (Jul 5, 2012)

Can some sailboats point higher than others? I have heard that the Olympic class Star and Flying Dutchman sailboats can point higher (sail closer to the wind) than most other sailboats. I have also heard that catboats and catamarans usually do not point very well to windward. 

Are these statements true? If so, is a boat’s pointing ability, or lack thereof, significant? (Is it a matter of just a degree or two, or ten to fifteen degrees?) Does good pointing ability mean good speed to windward, or are some boats faster to windward than others with only average pointing ability? 

Can someone explain this to me?

Richard


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

If you spend a lot of time 'beating' to weather then pointing ability is quite important. But 'pointing' isn't the whole story.

Modern race boats can point quite high, they have optimized rigs and state-of-the-art underbody designs that resist leeway, and when properly handled are upwind rocket ships. Certainly there are designs that 'point' better than others, and the actual pointing ability as far as sails go is tied to deck hardware arrangement, rig tension and tuning, and the skill of the sailor among other things. But a boat that can, for example, keep the telltales flying at a close angle to the wind isn't necessarily getting to weather as effectively as one might think. If the underbody won't support that sailing angle the boat often suffers excessive leeway, negating the 'gain' of the the narrow angle. So the same boat may well get to weather more quickly by not sailing quite so 'high', reducing leeway, going faster, covering a bit more 'ground', but in essence would gain more weather distance sooner....

Fat, max beam-forward boats with no provision to sheet sails inboard will necessarily have a wide sheeting angle that will not permit 'pointing'.. whether that boat could be improved with deck arrangements is often debatable. Bluff/wide entry angles of the hull will suffer from wave action, slowing further, etc etc...

I'm no designer and I'm probably explaining this badly, but the simple answer to the question 'do some boats point better' is a resounding YES!


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

rlltrash said:


> ... If so, is a boat's pointing ability, or lack thereof, significant?


It depends on the boat's use.

Most racing today is done on short windward-leeward, round-the-buoys courses which emphasize tactics, crew work and boat handling skills, so the shortest course is almost directly upwind half the distance and almost directly downwind half the other distance. Upwind ability is very important since velocity made good upwind will determine how the fleet places on half the distance of the course. Now that racing boats can plane downwind and achieve much greater speed downwind than upwind, however, a fast downwind boat can still overcome a slight disadvantage upwind.

Upwind ability is less important while cruising. Some cruising sailors eschew upwind sailing completely, "Gentlemen don't sail to weather", and will inevitably motor to windward in almost all conditions. If you cruise any significant amount, it is not unusual to go out on a perfect sailing day and see perfectly capable (and usually expensive) boats motoring upwind instead of sailing. (These are the same boats you see running dead downwind with the boom trimmed to the centerline of the boat and the roller-furling jib on the wrong side.) To these sailors, beating upwind is too uncomfortable, difficult, frustrating and slow. Beating upwind requires skill, perseverence, heeling, spray, pounding, trimming in the headsail, scary noises, and attendant discomfort. It is difficult to hold your cocktail upright and maintain a calm demeanor for your guests with your ascot perfectly tied while your boat is pounding into the waves at a 30 degree angle. Plus, your wife may not sleep with you for at least a week if you persist. Nevertheless, on a given desirable cruising course heading with wind from no predominant direction, if you care to sail, you will end up going to weather at least 1/4 of the time (= 90/360 degrees) and downwind 1/4 of the time. So, you will effectively spend half your time beating or running downwind.

Running downwind can be equally scary. Some sailors have balls and some don't. Those without should probably just give up, spare us all the embarrassment, and buy a trawler.

Almost all boats sail well while reaching. The greatest speed differences are achieved upwind or downwind.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

rlltrash said:


> Can some sailboats point higher than others? I have heard that the Olympic class Star and Flying Dutchman sailboats can point higher (sail closer to the wind) than most other sailboats. I have also heard that catboats and catamarans usually do not point very well to windward.
> 
> Are these statements true? If so, is a boat's pointing ability, or lack thereof, significant? (Is it a matter of just a degree or two, or ten to fifteen degrees?) Does good pointing ability mean good speed to windward, or are some boats faster to windward than others with only average pointing ability?
> 
> ...


Yes it's true.

Usually, lack of pointing ability results in a lower VMG, which results in a longer travel time to your destination (whatever that may be), however in the case of multi-hull boats, they are often fast enough, that their sheer hull speed keeps their VMG high enough to compare or beat monohulls. True, they end up sailing a great number of actual miles, but they sail them faster, and so arrive at their destination sooner than your average, cruising monohull might.

That's sort of an apples-to-oranges comparison though. If you restrict the comparison to mono-vs-mono or multi-vs-multi, then yes- Loss of point can result in more miles sailed, and longer to arrive.

*The importance of pointing ability is largely determined by YOU.*If you race, then pointing ability is probably very important.
If you're a cruiser who places a priority on sailing vs. motoring, pointing ability will be important, because you want to arrive at your destination before your turn to skeletons.

If you're a day-sailor who's just farting around it's not a huge deal.
If you don't like the upwind motion, and prefer to motor, then it's not going to be important.

Pointing ability between boats can vary as much as 10 degrees. There are a LOT of factors that contribute to this. Design, sail condition, rig tune, etc.

Really, Faster's explaination was pretty good. I'm probably just re-hashing what he said.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

You want to go to windward. Get a canting keel 20 feet deep with a load of depleted uranium on the bottom, plus a set of serious crisp paper sails which you replace every 6 months. 

Dont care about going to windward. Get a fat bottomed bilge keeler with baggy sails.

Trust me you WILL notice a difference.


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## BarryL (Aug 21, 2003)

Hey,

I can add some real world numbers to this. 

I crew on a well prepared early 80's C&C 34 with all sorts of go fast gear: deep keel, rod rigging, faired bottom that is kept clean, 2 blade folding prop, high tech laminated head sails, hydraulic backstay adjuster, crew of 4 or so sitting on the weather rail (in a good breeze), empty water tanks, no anchor on the foredeck, etc.

My own boat is a 1986 O'day 35 with shoal keel, 3 blade fixed prop, dacron sails (headsail is 4 years old), fixed backstay, dodger up all the time, 30lb anchor on the bow, full water tanks, no crew, etc.

The race boat sails at about 32 degrees apparent wind angle. My boat sails at about 40 degrees apparent wind angle. 

I have been working to improve my pointing ability and by making changes to the boat I have improved the pointing by about 5 degrees. This year I am planning on changing the rigging and getting the forestay properly tensioned, and adding a new main. I might be able to sail a little higher but I can't trim the headsail in tighter without it hitting the shrouds.

Barry


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

ACC boats typically could point 30* to the true wind. Aparant wind was something like 20*. Actual tacking angles were 60* or less. That's a HUGE advantage to someone who tacks through a typical 90* tack. Do the trig and decide if it's that important.


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## deltaten (Oct 10, 2012)

I don't know much; but years ago I read how the racers/engineers pared back sizes and weights of stuff till it broke, then went back up one size.....
I figger it's better ta get there in one piece than get there FAST and chance breaking something!
Am I wrong??


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## bobmcgov (Jul 19, 2007)

rlltrash said:


> Can some sailboats point higher than others? I have heard that the Olympic class Star and Flying Dutchman sailboats can point higher (sail closer to the wind) than most other sailboats. I have also heard that catboats and catamarans usually do not point very well to windward.
> 
> Are these statements true? If so, is a boat's pointing ability, or lack thereof, significant? (Is it a matter of just a degree or two, or ten to fifteen degrees?) Does good pointing ability mean good speed to windward, or are some boats faster to windward than others with only average pointing ability?
> 
> ...


It can vary by the design: some boats that look like tubs point just fine. Others that should be witches to weather are not. But as a general rule....

1. Long, narrow boats with fine entries point better than short, fat ones with bluff bows.

2. Deep hulls point better than flat-sectioned ones.

3. Boats with thin, blade-like appendages generate more lift (resisting leeway) than boats with long-chord keel & rudder.

4. Boats with inboard sheeting (usually fractional rig) point higher than boats with overlapping genoas.

5. Sloops point higher than ketches or yawls; cat(boat) rigs should (theoretically) point higher than sloops, but in practice turbulence behind the mast and lack of a slot effect cancels the benefits.

6. Slow boats point higher than fast boats; going *too* slow may cause leeway, tho.

7. Stiff boats point higher than tender boats.

Still. It's a package deal, and appearances may deceive. There are long, slender hulls betrayed by poor appendages or inefficient sailplans that don't point like they oughta (see Albin Vega). There are flat-sectioned beamy hulls like the Open60 that point quite high indeed: they ride on their hard chine, have incredibly good sails, deep narrow foils & ballast carried low, and maybe even daggerboards to increase lift. Tho chances are they will sail lower most of the time, just for the extra speed. But they CAN point high at need.

IOR boats are famous for good windward ability, yet they have outboard-sheeting genoas & moderate appendages. Just the ideal balance of righting moment, hull shape, and boat speed. OTOH, multis should point very high indeed (extreme L/B, high initial stability, blade jibs, powerful full-battened mains, etc), yet many struggle to achieve 45 degrees true. That's mostly because they are so _fast_, traveling up to 2x wind speed; they shift the apparent wind angle right onto the nose, so they have to crack off to keep the sails drawing. Odds are they'll still whup you to the weather mark, even tacking thru 100 degrees.

Finally, a given boat may see its pointing angles vary by 15 degrees due to conditions & the size of its 'groove.' Take our SJ21. Never the most weatherly craft (bluff entry, flat sections, swept keel, short waterline), there is a narrow window (8-11kts true) where that boat will tack thru 80 degrees, if you get the heel angle just so. Less wind, the foils stall and (being a light boat) boat speed is too high a percentage of wind speed, pushing apparent too far forward. More wind, the boat begins making leeway, chop knocks the bows off, and you need to ease sheets to prevent excess heeling. Narrowest groove of any boat I've ever sailed on: outside that ideal windspeed range, we are happy to tack thru 100 degrees & expect substantial leeway.

Etchells is a monster for pointing. Star, as you say, if you have crew that can droop-hike for two hours.:laugher Your Meter boats, even though their keels generally suck.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

deltaten said:


> I figger it's better ta get there in one piece than get there FAST and chance breaking something!
> Am I wrong??


You are not "wrong" but its a puerile statement. Unless you make good boat speed to weather the leeway will push you backwards so you will never get to where you are going.... Unless, like old sailing ships your turn and go round the world.

Beating to weather in a cruising boat built poorly is hell to take cruising to weather. You don't make anywhere near a 90 degree tack. With waves slowing the boat, leeway, current, unusable gusts, a good cruising boat may be quite lucky to get 110 degrees. A poor boat 130 degrees.

When I say unusable gusts I mean because we are not hand steering we can't take advantage that a helmsman would of gusts, minor variations in direction "lifts" etc. a racing boat going well up wind is using them all. I spose too that every "knock" on a cruising boat on autopilot will slow the boat down more and for longer than hand steering.

In my idea of cruising I try to do the upwind bits in a block. I am not interested in sailing them in day hops, give me the bad stuff and lets get it over with.

Mark


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## msmith10 (Feb 28, 2009)

You're wrong if you're trying to win the America's Cup. If you're not in a very serious race, you're right.

Frankly, pointing ability is one of the most important factors in a boat to me, but that's because I love to beat upwind. I'd rather sail upwind than any other point of sailing, but that's purely personal preference. I just love the feel of a boat driving efficiently upwind.


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## ChristinaM (Aug 18, 2011)

Even in benign coastal cruising, there are times pointing a decent ability to point can be really nice. On a charter cat I spent a ton of time slowly tacking through a passage wide enough to sail through but narrow enough to channel the wind. She tacked through about 135 degrees, so to figure out where you were going next you basically did a shoulder check like changing lanes in a car. If we hadn't pushed each tack as close to land as we could, I think I'd still be there.

My beach cat does much better than that but it also makes much better speed and accelerates a lot faster on the new tack, so we can get closer to the true wind.

Neither cat comes near any monohull keelboat I've been on for pointing ability.


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

Delta,

It all depends on your objectives. I sailed on a boat that had a million dollars a year budget. The entire point for the owner was to win at any cost, so we did things on that boat that I would dream of on a cruising boat. I can't say the plan was wrong, it was just different.

For instance to jibe the spinnaker we disconnected the forestay then reattached it on the other side of the pole. It cost the boat a new mast every two years or so, but also allowed us to use a 65' spinnaker pole on a 70' boat. Average cost per year $100,000. 

We tossed sails regularly as they 'wore out' (this meant more than 7 days sailing on them). Average cost per year $150,000. 

We had three different keels that were swapped depending on the water depth the boat was sailing in. From the 17' deep off shore keel, to the 12' inshore keel. No idea what this cost. 

All new lines at least once per year

New PBO rigging every year

Was this budget crazy? Maybe a little, but the owner had the money, and loved the game of it. So as long as we won, it didn't matter what we spent.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

There's a big difference in pointing ability between different designs. Knowing what your boat's best point of sail is makes it possible to figure the most efficient way to get from point A to point B when you are plotting a cruising route. Not only in racing over short distances, but over a long distance it can make a big difference. Looking at the polars for a particular design is helpful and can actually be plugged into some plotter software to calculate best headings.


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## deltaten (Oct 10, 2012)

Thanx for the education, fellas. I am slowly absorbing a lot of facts, data and lore. The engineering I leave to others  
My two lines; while not mutually exclusive, were not mean to be taken as chiding the racing crowd. Simply an recalled observation and notation of my own desires.

Mine is strictly a limited budget production.  I don't envy those with deeper pockets or sumptious tastes in boats. I simply find it curious that the "racing" aspect of boats is usually presented; even in cruising threads. Granted...some *do* enjoy racing cruisers. Hell ! I usta drag race a Datsun pick-up!  Run with whatcha brung! 

Would that there were such finite specs and formulae for cruising hulls. I suppose such subjectives as comfort and space/style are harder to quantify with specific data points and calculations? But why re-invent the wheel? Existing terms and recognized calc results are the language of all boats. Guess I'll need to learn ta read and comprehend more 

Thanx,
Paul


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Here in the Windwards, it seems one is ALWAYS beating. After the summer sitting in Grenada (to avoid hurricanes) in SE winds, just as everybody is beginning to sail north the winds shift to NE; slog, slog, slog. As one heads south for Grenada, the winds turn SE and it's slog, slog, slog once again. What can one do?
But the reality of all this in relation to pointing ability is more governed by sea conditions and current than a vessel's windward ability, I believe.
We all try not to end up far off the island we are heading for and have to motor up in the windless lee. Generally, the current is westward even when, following Don Street's theories, it should not be. Anyway, with the westwerly set of the current and adding seas of 4 to 8 feet (short, steep ones at that) that have a bit of fetch, (like the whole Atlantic Ocean) then squeezed between a couple of islands, I think we all are going to point about the same. Boat speed will vary, of course, but unless you are sailing something over 70 feet, Neptune will have more to say about your pointing ability than your boat's designer, down here.


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

Stumble said:


> Delta,
> 
> It all depends on your objectives. I sailed on a boat that had a million dollars a year budget. The entire point for the owner was to win at any cost, so we did things on that boat that I would dream of on a cruising boat. I can't say the plan was wrong, it was just different.
> 
> ...


What boat? Name? Model?


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

On what regards coastal cruisers most just turn on the engine when they have to go dead upwind and when there is waves they let the main on and motorsail for a better wind angle.

There are very few that really like to beat against the wind. Its is slow, even if you go fast and many times uncomfortable and that's why most modern production cruisers are not optimized upwind sailing boats. The large majority of cruisers are coastal cruisers.

Even among production cruisers you can have remarkable differences and on the same model the depth of the keel is an important factor. The same boat with a 1.70m keel and with a 2.25m keel will go very differently against the wind. The quality of the sails and its condition is also important.

some have already given practical examples: ZZ4GTA had already gave an example of an extremely good pointing boat, the America cup monohulls, withapparent angles of 20º and and Actual tacking angles of 60º.

As Mark said on typical modern cruising boat the angles are most of the time around 110 degrees. A good one can do 100º and only a performance cruiser with very good pointing ability will make about 90º. There are many boats that will make more than 110º

Regarding cruising the difference of a boat capable of making around 90º and one capable of making 110º is a huge one, providing one really sails and don't just use the engine

The angles a boat can make will depend on the wind (more wind, closer you can get, till a point) and on the wave and sea condition. To get an idea you can get a look at an ORCI file. Here you have one of a very good performance cruiser, the First 40. These numbers are with optimal conditions, no waves, excellent sails and a very well sailed boat. These perfect speeds are very difficult to reach by a cruiser in normal conditions even if one can get close.

http://vtr.com/vtroceanico/images/CHI2755_Pura_Sangre.PDF

You can see that they point to each wind speed the best beat angle (true wind) that can go from 44º with 6K wind to 36.6º with 16K wind.

A Benetau Oceanis 393 (1.93 draft), in perfect conditions with racing sails can go from 46.5º with 6K wind till 40.6º with 16K wind.

http://www.cvpa.es/files/rating_banff_2012.pdf

That does not seem much but the First is more narrow, will knife better through the waves and in reality the results with be farther apart than the ones that consider flat water, specially in what concerns medium and high winds (bigger waves).

Also, even in flat water the speeds made good (the real speed considering a straight line against the wind and not the speed the boat is making over the water against the wind) are very different. With 6K wind The Benetau Oceanis 93 will be making 2.98K and the First 40 3.69K. With 16K wind the Oceanis is making 4.98K and the First 5.81.

As I have said that is in ideal conditions that we rarely find in reality (no waves) and as I have said with waves we will have a bigger difference in what regards to sail with 16K because there are normally waves with 16K wind.

Anyway that means that dead upwind in perfect conditions the Oceanis 393 will make with 6K wind 71.5nm in 24 hours and the First 40 88.6. With 16k wind and flat water the Oceanis will make 119.5nm and the First 139.2.

The Oceanis 393 is a well designed modern boat and even if there are some old boats that can have a better performance (specially with 16k wind) many will have a worse performance and in some the difference will be as big or bigger than the difference between the Oceanis and the First.

So you can get a idea about the subject in what concerns different boat performances upwind.

....


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## rlltrash (Jul 5, 2012)

msmith10 said:


> You're wrong if you're trying to win the America's Cup. If you're not in a very serious race, you're right.
> 
> Frankly, pointing ability is one of the most important factors in a boat to me, but that's because I love to beat upwind. I'd rather sail upwind than any other point of sailing, but that's purely personal preference. I just love the feel of a boat driving efficiently upwind.


Thank you to all who have replied. I had no idea! I had thought that, among "normal" boats, pointing was more a matter of sailor skill than rig and design. Apparently, some boats do if fact point better than others.

If that is true, then what are some of the better pointing boats? The Star, Beneteau First, and Etchells were mentioned above. For boats < 30 ft. LOA, can you think of some other boats that are known for being fast to windward? I, too, enjoy beating to windward (and unless I use the motor, I have to in order to get out of my harbor.)

Thanks again, Richard


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Regarding American boats, J boats in general, specially the more sportive ones, the new C&C 101 for instance. As someone has said : look for performance cruisers, even older ones, with a fin keel, big draft, big B/D ratio and relatively narrow boats. Some older long keelers, narrow ones and well designed, can also be quite good. Generally most cruisers that are successful club racers, even old ones, are good upwind boats.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

If you see only snatch blocks on the toerail for jib sheets, unless it's a very narrow boat your sheeting angles are going to be restrictive.. if on a similar boat you see deck or cabin-top tracks for jib cars, with easy to use adjustments then you're likely looking at a boat that will point better because it's able to create narrower sheeting angles for a finer luff entry angle, which will translate to higher pointing.

But, as mentioned, that's just part of the story.. sail condition, helmsmanship and the condition and shape/type of underbody is just as important.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Would note until you can "throw up the hook" for good many of us cruise from and back to the same harbor as we are working stiffs. That usually means beating away from or back to a home port.You may go "down Maine" but sooner or later you have to beat it home. Even though I'm reaching a point in my life that will not be a concern windward ability was a major component in choosing my "last boat". Having a boat that doesn't pound and has a good VMG is important to my spouse. When she is happy life is good. Agree wth posters stating published polars can be quite misleading particularly in a seaway.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

outbound said:


> Would note until you can "throw up the hook" for good many of us cruise from and back to the same harbor as we are working stiffs. That usually means beating away from or back to a home port.You may go "down Maine" but sooner or later you have to beat it home. Even though I'm reaching a point in my life that will not be a concern windward ability was a major component in choosing my "last boat". Having a boat that doesn't pound and has a good VMG is important to my spouse. When she is happy life is good. Agree wth posters stating published polars can be quite misleading particularly in a seaway.


We lived and sailed for nearly 25 years at the end of a 25nm long coastal fiord. Daily inflow winds 20+ knots were 'normal' in summer, stronger outflow winds often occurred in winter. Either way you're beating coming or going.

We put a lot of stock in windward ability, and learned (and loved) to sail the weather. If you didn't you'd never have left home!


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

outbound said:


> ...Agree wth posters stating published polars can be quite misleading particularly in a seaway.


Outbound, those are not Polars made by the boat designer. Polars that boat manufacturers show are normally made by the designer when the boat is designed based in computerized previsions taking into account all data regarding the boat. They are normally close but as you say there can be some variation and they are interested in showing a somewhat flattery Polar.

The speeds and the certificates that I had linked are used for racing at the highest level (ORCI).

They take not only into account the boat characteristics but also the real RM and stability curve. They are not a completely computer generated based on boat data but have as base the real boat stability evaluated through an inclining experience. There are two levels of precision on the ratings, one for Club Racing (ORC) more simple (less accurate) and another one more complex and precise for international racing. The certificates I have utilized for the speeds are from the last class.

Here is quite the opposite, a boat owner would be interested in having the lower possible speeds on the certificate to be able to beat the handicap but those speeds are quite accurate anyway. That does not mean that a boat would not be better than other in some conditions, regarding the previewed speeds.

Have a look:

http://www.jahtklubi.ee/uploads/media/2012_orc_worlds_1_dobbs_orc.pdf

Regards

Paulo


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

Stumble said:


> Delta,
> 
> It all depends on your objectives. I sailed on a boat that had a million dollars a year budget. The entire point for the owner was to win at any cost, so we did things on that boat that I would dream of on a cruising boat. I can't say the plan was wrong, it was just different.
> 
> ...


Stumble, what boat was that? Do you have any pics of the boat flying at 65ft spin pole? That seems a bit...odd!

Personally I think upwind ability will always be important to me, even if I am not racing. Sailing upwind is FAR more comfortable than motoring. In seas our sailplan is much more powerful than our engine, so chances are we will get there faster even if we have to throw in a few tacks to get there. Much of our sailing is done in confined areas where we might be sailing between the shore and a line of reefs, and being able to point high often allows us to do so with a minimal number of tacks.


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## nolatom (Jun 29, 2005)

If you're not close-hauled, it's boring ;-)


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## msmith10 (Feb 28, 2009)

nolatom said:


> If you're not close-hauled, it's boring ;-)


Or surfing with a chute. Either way you've got to pay constant attention.


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## bobmcgov (Jul 19, 2007)

rlltrash said:


> Thank you to all who have replied. I had no idea! I had thought that, among "normal" boats, pointing was more a matter of sailor skill than rig and design. Apparently, some boats do if fact point better than others.
> 
> If that is true, then what are some of the better pointing boats? The Star, Beneteau First, and Etchells were mentioned above. For boats < 30 ft. LOA, can you think of some other boats that are known for being fast to windward? I, too, enjoy beating to windward (and unless I use the motor, I have to in order to get out of my harbor.)
> 
> Thanks again, Richard


Careful -- 'fast to windward' is not always the same as 'pointing high'. The two are often mixed up, usually resulting in fruitless arguments. Toss in the issue of leeway, and things can get ugly.

Fast to windward usually means VMG: who gets from point A to point B first. The winner there may actually be an Open40 or multihull. Sure, they are tacking thru a miserable 110 degrees; but they are traveling 18kts, which makes up for lousy pointing angles. OTOH, your Soling can tack thru 70 degrees (sailing 35 degrees to the true wind). But it is only moving 5kts when pinched up like that. Quite a lot of effort is expended figuring out which is best: high and slow, or low and fast.

As some have noted here tho, great VMG numbers wont help you thread that reef entrance or weather that headland; you'll have to tack the Open40 or beach cat more times than the Soling; and footing off for more boat speed can lead to vicious pounding. Sometimes high and slow is a more comfortable ride in sloppy seas. That's where a boat that can point high is your friend.

Tradeoff: most boats that are witches to weather are dogs downwind. An Etchells might get to the windward mark ahead of a Farr 30. Wave and smile as they launch their big spi & head for the bottom mark, cuz that's the last time you'll be seeing them. Your displacement hull settles down to a rolly 5kt DDW leg, while the Farr surfs along in the 20s.

Finally, it's interesting to note the difference between course and heading. Your compass may tell you the boat is consistently tacking thru 90 degrees. When you get home, pull up your GPS track and see what your course-over-ground really was. Especially on choppy days, you might be surprised (shocked, appalled) at how wide your effective angles are. S'okay. It's just another thing to keep in mind when you are aiming to clip that rock point.

(BTW, maybe one of the all-time champs at both pointing angles and VMG has to be the Schock Wavelength 40.










Canting keel, narrow hull, and a second rudder foil at the bow that could be cranked to the proper attack angle. That sucker could actually climb above its layline -- make *negative leeway* -- due to lift generated by its foils. And it went really fast. Until the canting keel fell off, which tended to slow you down.)


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

bobmcgov said:


> ... Quite a lot of effort is expended figuring out which is best: high and slow, or low and fast.
> 
> ... Sometimes high and slow is a more comfortable ride in sloppy seas. That's where a boat that can point high is your friend.
> 
> Tradeoff: most boats that are witches to weather are dogs downwind. ...)


Regarding to be more comfortable to ride sloppy seas at a smaller speed close to the wind....well, certainly with less speed your motion would be more comfortable.... without the trade off: You are getting the waves much more frontally and that can make for a very uncomfortable ride specially if you are sailing steep waves. Some times that can be more more uncomfortable than if you bear off 7 degrees and sail with more speed.

I guess that it will depend on the boat and sea conditions.

Regarding good boats upwind being dogs downwind, as you point out it is not always the case. Take for example a J70 or J 111.

The really disadvantage is that even some narrow boats can plane very fast downwind it is always a difficult affair that needs normally a crew. It is an act of delicate balance while on beamy boats, the type used on solo races, the upwind performance will be not as good but planning downwind fast will be safer, can be done solo and even on autopilot.

Not easy to design a fast boat, specially one that will not be sailed by a big crew. Lot's of trade offs.

Regards

Paulo


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

Bringing high performance mono and multihulls into the discussion is complicating the discussion because any boat that can break free of it's theoretical hull speed has to deal with significant swings in it's apparent wind angles when doing so. As the apparent portion of the total wind speed increases, the boat will be forced to bear off to maintain the minimum angle it can sail to. Have you ever noticed how high performance boats look like they are sailing close hauled even when they are actually sailing on a broad reach according to the true wind angle?

With regards to conventional displacement boats, there is a large element of helmsmanship involved in being able to point high. You have to understand your particular boat and how it's keel and sails work. For example, my old Hotfoot 20 had a deep draft, short cord keel. As a result of the short cord it stalled easily at slower speeds. If I tried to make the boat point before I got up to speed, well, it just wouldn't! When I learned to foot off and build up speed the boat suddenly was able to point. If I hit some waves I had to foot off to power through them, then go back to pointing. You have to be really active on the helm and trim in order to get the most point out of a boat.


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## rlltrash (Jul 5, 2012)

Thank you all very much. This has turned out to be more complex than I suspected. 

Can anyone comment on the Star (Olympic class) or Lightning cb sloop? I live in southern California and sail in the ocean. How do these do in ocean coastal waters? The Star is supposed to point well to windward. I don't know about the lightning. 

Any comments?

Richard


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

The Star is not a boat that many would choose for 'daysailing' - it's a race boat pure and simple with quite rigorous demands on the crew. The go to weather well but have far too complex rig and sail controls for the casual sailor, and the crew spends most of his time hiking with everything above the knee hanging over the side...The Lightning is a more conventional daysailer but they too can be tech'd/tricked out somewhat. Neither would likely be considered a good open water boat.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

rlltrash said:


> Thank you all very much. This has turned out to be more complex than I suspected.
> 
> Can anyone comment on the Star (Olympic class) or Lightning cb sloop? I live in southern California and sail in the ocean. How do these do in ocean coastal waters? The Star is supposed to point well to windward. I don't know about the lightning.
> 
> ...


I owned a couple of Lightnings. They are only good for relatively flat conditions and will pound in any kind of sea. If you want to "daysail" in any sort of waves, they would not be a good choice. A Lightning has almost a flat bottom and a hard chine. What you need for a more comfortable ride is a boat with a rounder chine and deeper bottom. ODay makes some nice little boats that might fit the bill. The Star is a great sailboat but is getting into the purely-for-racing category. It would be more difficult to trailer and is also not meant to be in any kind of sea conditions.


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

zz4gta said:


> What boat? Name? Model?


It was a two boat program. An Andrews 70, and a Santa Cruis 52 both named Decision. The same program just won the Onion Patch in 2012.


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## CBinRI (May 17, 2004)

jameswilson29 said:


> It depends on the boat's use.
> 
> Most racing today is done on short windward-leeward, round-the-buoys courses which emphasize tactics, crew work and boat handling skills, so the shortest course is almost directly upwind half the distance and almost directly downwind half the other distance. Upwind ability is very important since velocity made good upwind will determine how the fleet places on half the distance of the course. Now that racing boats can plane downwind and achieve much greater speed downwind than upwind, however, a fast downwind boat can still overcome a slight disadvantage upwind.
> 
> ...


I am a bit mystified by those who don't like to go to wind. It is definitely my favorite point of sail. My boat, like other S&S boats of its era, was designed to go to wind and when she settles into a groove, it is thrilling. But I can recall it wasn't quite as much fun when I had a much more tender boat that didn't point as high. And as to the original post, yes, pointing ability makes a big difference, racing or otherwise.


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## Bradhamlet (Nov 8, 2002)

CBinRI i'm with you, I love to go to weather. But let me tell you why some don't ( wife) It is wet with the spray coming back to you, its bumpy, the boat bucks, if the wind is cold it feels colder as you are now going into it with more speed. You feel like the boat is being pushed up hill, pitching ect. Why she likes off wind sailing more, it feels like you are being pulled to your destination less bucking/pitching it is less windy, more dry. So I can see it both ways. Maybe gentleman just don't like the feeling and us dogs revel in it. Who knows...

Brad 
Lancer 36


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Different strokes etc.... my wife would rather beat in 20+ knots than run downwind in 15... Which is OK, but unusual. It takes a while to talk her into flying the spinnaker, and once it's up after 7.0 knots we don't jibe, but she much prefers beating to windward.


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## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

My old boat, 50 year old design, a centerboard yawl, doesn't point very high. I knew that from reading long ago. And I have a friend with a J35. If we're sailing to windward together, he points higher 

A couple years back with my college aged son and daughter as crew, we took our boat across the Gulf of Maine overnight(something we've done several times). This time, instead of just powering into the southerly breeze, I offered," Instead of motoring for 24 hours, what do you say we allow ourselves 36 or so, and just sail?" "Sure", all around. They love to sail rather than motor anytime.

Our forecast was south winds, our course,...south. To make a long story short(I appologize to anyone who's heard the long story), we made 3 tacks. Starboard, port, starboard. At times, we seemed so wide of a logical course, I didn't figure we'd finish under sail.

We used our WP for all the steering. Conditions ranged from 5kts on the nose, building to near 20 on the nose for the final tack, and a lot of water on the decks(we stayed dry and warm below or behind the dodger and spent little time behind the wheel).

We never attempted to point as high as the boat would allow, instead falling off to keep the boat on her feet, make it easy for the WP to steer(it did the whole way), and make it easy on us as far as how the boat handled the waves(my daughter, like her mom is prone to seasickness unless you make the boat sail, so they don't get sick;it can be done usually).

Leaving from Tenants Harbor area, we arrived at the Cape Cod Canal about 32 hours later. If I recall correctly, we covered about 180 nm on those 3 tacks. That was our fastest crossing, and most have been made under power on the shorter rhumb line.

I remember our tacking angle on the chartplotter, it was pretty pathetic.  It was an amazing trip though, and our old boat goes to weather. I took this shot on the port tack into the setting sun that night


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

> Plus, your wife may not sleep with you for at least a week if you persist.


OTOH, some BFS runs are better than sex.


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

pointing is overrated. bashing into seas and winds sukks and is most uncomfortable, not to mention hard work.
gentlemen NEVER sail to weather.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

zeehag said:


> gentlemen NEVER sail to weather.


Ok then..... clearly I'm no gentleman!!


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

did my share of that beating into and thru storms bs--i prefer to sail my ketch without being beaten to death during my passage making.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

```

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zeehag said:


> pointing is overrated. bashing into seas and winds sukks and is most uncomfortabkle, not to mention hard work.
> gentlemen NEVER sail to weather.


Sailing upwind is nowhere near as uncomfortable as motoring to weather! Sure it takes more concentration, and effort, but a good helmsman can smooth the seas significantly. If you are bashing your way through the waves then you are probably not doing it right! So if you don't want to sail up wind, but the prevailing winds are coming from where you want to go, what do you do, go back to port with your tail between your legs, or man-up and sail?

Real sailors can sail up wind!


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

i see many sailing boats motoring instead of sailing--i do not understand how folks can actually say they SAILED from one place to another--i motor sail, much of the time, but, puleeeze...is a lot more comfortable not trying to emulate a 747....

btw--i do not sail up wind nor up hill. i sail with the seas and winds usually, here on west coast. the trick--never sail north. north is a no no--uncomfortable and bashing type of travel--nasty.

seems no one tacks anymore???? why not just buy a motor boat and cruise on that....


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## bobmcgov (Jul 19, 2007)

OP: The Lightning points higher than most dinghies of its type. It has a weighted CB, a hard chine, and the blade jib basically sheets at the mast partners -- radically inboard. But it's a poor choice for anything outside the breakwater, having been designed for Skaneatles Lake. Star is a horrible painbox & pedigree racer. You don't want one. 

I suspect the boat for you is a moderate-sized swing keel boat. The Montgomery line perform well, as do the Precisions, & they are rugged enough for coastal if you pick your days. Frankly, it's hard to beat the Catalina 22 for what you propose. They have genoas and a slab-like keel, yet they point surprisingly well -- at least 5 degrees higher than our SJ21 in most conditions. Put some good sails on a C22, it will point high enough for your needs, promise. They are also quite roomy below for their size. Every time we take our San Juan to Catalina Island -- close reach or close hauled from MDR, usually -- I envy the heft and appropriateness the C22 for its eponymous crossing. Our SJ was built for protected waters in the PNW summer. A C22 has more margin built in. And it'll tack thru 90 or less in a much wider set of conditions. Really, they've built some 16,000 of them. They don't suck. I'd strongly urge you to cadge a ride on a C22 & see if it's a good fit. All-up towing weight is going to be 2700# or more, tho.


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## Arjen (Jan 18, 2012)

Shortly after i bought my boat and started testing some on a lake where i would tack into the wind and then go back to where i started, i got a bit dissapointed that my boat would not do better than 50 degrees while maintaining speed. That is, 100 degrees difference between tacks on the compass. Leeway would add another 10 or so degrees to that. It didnt take long for me however to decide that while cruising i dont care too much. Indeed after 3 days of beating upwind and getting nowhere, i decided that from then on i´d be waiting for the right wind or motoring....
Then again, if i had a bout that could do 35 degrees or something without too much leeway and i would actually be able to get somewhere upwind, maybe i would actually make use of that and think different about it


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

There are many factors involved in pointing ability. Sail trim is a large part of it, along with hull type. If the boat is a "pounder" it will make all attempts at sailing close hauled into any kind of sea very painful. If, however the hull is designed to cut through the sea, tacking upwind can be the most fun and very effective in getting from point A to B. It just takes some planning. That's what sailing is all about: making the sailboat perform. Waiting so you can sail on a run all the time? That's not sailing.


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## PaulinVictoria (Aug 23, 2009)

If you don't sail upwind round here, you can't sail anywhere. On many occasions I've left harbour and beat to wind all the way out, and then the wind turns right around and I end up beating all the way home too.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

That is true for the Chesapeake Bay region, also. The Bay runs North to South. The winds are predominately light and out of the South during the summer, due to the Bermuda high.

If you wish to travel up or down the Bay, you will most likely be beating or running, with the occasional reach coinciding with a frontal passage or offshore tropical depression.

Rarely, however, will the wind be directly on the nose. Usually, there is a long tack to sustain hope, that if you can just be lifted a little, just a little, you will make it past that shoal/point/navaid/hazard, etc., and won't have to tack again and again.

Just to show how fickle cruising is, on my Delmarva circumnavigation, on the day following my best daylight day's run of 74 n.m. in 12 hours, Cape May to Still Pond, I had my worse day's mileage, beating directly into a light wind, against a foul current, past Poole's Island in a narrow portion of the Northern Bay, making it only from Still Pond to Rock Hall. It was still a much better day than almost any work day.


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## CBinRI (May 17, 2004)

Bradhamlet said:


> CBinRI i'm with you, I love to go to weather. But let me tell you why some don't ( wife) It is wet with the spray coming back to you, its bumpy, the boat bucks, if the wind is cold it feels colder as you are now going into it with more speed. You feel like the boat is being pushed up hill, pitching ect. Why she likes off wind sailing more, it feels like you are being pulled to your destination less bucking/pitching it is less windy, more dry. So I can see it both ways. Maybe gentleman just don't like the feeling and us dogs revel in it. Who knows...
> 
> Brad
> Lancer 36


Occasionally we have to put our preferences aside in favor of keeping our better halves happy. The wife has to be happy or we might have to find another hobby. And as I am usually behind the wheel (nice and dry) I understand that it is not necessarily the same for those on the rail.


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

head winds is why gods made tacking in weather. is totally unnecessary to try to push a boat into a wind--wind is what fills sails--when heading into it, there is none with which to fill sails. try a bash for 400 miles then say how much fun it is, especially with weather helm on a fin/spade sloop.....have fun.
as for sailcruising sans sails-- many many seem to be into this weird activity. must have unlimited funding....


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

zeehag said:


> head winds is why gods made tacking in weather. is totally unnecessary to try to push a boat into a wind--wind is what fills sails--when heading into it, there is none with which to fill sails. try a bash for 400 miles then say how much fun it is, especially with weather helm on a fin/spade sloop.....have fun.
> as for sailcruising sans sails-- many many seem to be into this weird activity. must have unlimited funding....


Well, for some of us, it sometimes IS necessary to sail to weather...

If we actually want to GO places, that is, and might not have all the time in the world to do so...


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

i have had to make 2 tacks on a 400 mile passage from la cruz e huanacaxtle, nayarit , mexico to zihuatenejo, guerrero mexico. is all downhill and some weather comes from south, then clocks around to nw. this is a good coast to cruise for easy boat handling. even with this feature here, many use no sails in their sail cruising.
before i got to la cruz, i didnt have to tack at all. was all down wind and down hill. easy sailing. slightly rolly.
as i life fro a cruising, i dont sail to schedules and can do what i wish to accomplish without having to sail into wind. 
even in gulf of mexico we didnt NEED to sail into weather but we did, as boat owner liked sailing the magenta line .... i removed that magenta line from my garmin.....


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## rlltrash (Jul 5, 2012)

Somewhere above there were comments about sheeting angle of the jib/genoa and inside or outside of the shrouds. On the Trailer Sailor forum I found this entry: 

“Oh, I thought you were going to make a commnet about the location of Rod's jib car in the photo. 

What is the magic number? 11 degrees my friends. 11 degrees off the center line when you draw an imaginary line from the tack to the clew of the head sail in medium air. 

And, yes, you can rationalize 'that number is not correct for 'my' boat, in 'my' wind.' But I prefer to take the advice of Dennis Conners. . . .”
Bob K. Pursuit, 1/4/13

Does that 11 degree sheeting angle ring a bell with anyone? Is that the optimal sheeting angle of the jib when close hauled? Maybe that is why my 20+ degree sheeting angle on the genoa (outside of the shrouds) doesn’t get me to windward very fast. Is there also an optimal angle for the mainsail? Where can I get more information on this?

Thanks for all the great replies.

Richard


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

11 degrees sounds reasonable to me.. not all boats can achieve that with interference from shrouds, track/car locations, etc. Others can go closer to center than that.. but may not benefit fully due to the various factors already discussed.

As far as the main is concerned, often the optimum angle is determined by its proximity to the headsail otherwise excessive backwinding can result - although on many boats some backwinding isn't necessarily 'slow'. We generally choose our 'boom angle' based on the wind strength and heeling angle. This is where a good vang, and an easily adjusted mainsheet and traveler come into play.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

I can't say that I have ever measured the sheeting angle. on most race boats I have raced on that have overlapping headsails the sail will be within a couple of inches of the spreader and may be even touching the shrouds at the foot. If you have a non-overlapping head sail then you definitely want the ability to sheet inside the shrouds. You do want to be careful not to "choke the slot" between the jib and main by sheeting in too tight. On a fractional rigged boat with a jib, the main is doing most of the work and the jib is secondary so you don't want to backwind the main much.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Hi Faster- How do you judge the "slot". When do you judge time to reef v. time to flatten the main v. time to just foot a little. What parameters do you use to judge how much twist put in? Always end up tweaking lines/halyard tension/travelor/outhaul etc.. Never totally happy with the main going up wind. Read the books.Watch what other folks do when crewing. find there are so many choices going up wind.Tweak- look a sog/vmg tweak some more.do others have the same addiction? drives the wife crazy "just sit already" lol


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

zeehag said:


> i see many sailing boats motoring instead of sailing--i do not understand how folks can actually say they SAILED from one place to another--i motor sail, much of the time, but, puleeeze...is a lot more comfortable not trying to emulate a 747....
> 
> btw--i do not sail up wind nor up hill. i sail with the seas and winds usually, here on west coast. the trick--never sail north. north is a no no--uncomfortable and bashing type of travel--nasty.
> 
> seems no one tacks anymore???? why not just buy a motor boat and cruise on that....


Well if you are just playing around with the boat you can chose never go against the wind but if you are cruising and want to go from point A to B and if they are at a considerable distance (some thousands of miles), sooner or later you will have head winds. then you can chose to motor, to motor sail or to sail. Sailing, as it was pointed out, is less fast but more comfortable and then pointing ability will make all the difference regarding VMG.

There are only two ways to cruise considerable distances avoiding upwind winds: One is circumnavigating following the trade winds, the other to be totally dependent of seasonal winds, many times months apart.

Regarding being uncomfortable normally boats with a good pointing ability are good sailboats that can sail with light winds and you can make good speed upwind in almost flat water with 6K winds and go at almost hull speed in 8/9K, with very small waves and that is just great fun.

I sail a lo upwind and that's why I have choose a boat with a good pointing ability.

Regards

Paulo


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

outbound said:


> Hi Faster- How do you judge the "slot". When do you judge time to reef v. time to flatten the main v. time to just foot a little. What parameters do you use to judge how much twist put in? Always end up tweaking lines/halyard tension/travelor/outhaul etc.. Never totally happy with the main going up wind. Read the books.Watch what other folks do when crewing. find there are so many choices going up wind.Tweak- look a sog/vmg tweak some more.do others have the same addiction? drives the wife crazy "just sit already" lol





> drives the wife crazy "just sit already" lol


... you been spying on us??

I'm with you there.. to be honest I've always been more of a 'seat of the pants' type sailor than a technical trim/by the numbers guy. We learned to sail, as mentioned above, in a area blessed with strong winds but just a chop and rarely any serious wave action - near perfect training grounds (except for helming in a big sea....) Anyhow we're big believers in traveler usage, and I do tend to pull strings a lot, even now, and we rarely race anymore. The pressure on the helm and the heel angle are our 'dictates'. We'll suffer a fair bit of mainsail backwind if it's not slowing us down, but for a longer leg we'll reef, of course. Much of our sailing is either upwind or down, as the local topography tends to 'steer' the prevailing SE or NW winds along the straits and inlets.

Our boat really likes 'traveler down early' and I often think of when I read Buddy Melges' book where he says the sails need to 'breathe'..

Figuring out how to get a boat upwind makes those trips much more enjoyable than pounding under power into the slop and chop, saves fuel and provides long term gloating rights over those <wimps> that can't be bothered.


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## PaulinVictoria (Aug 23, 2009)

I try to trim as best as my ancient sails will allow. My boat is much faster with a little bit of main backwinded, the speed bubble, but then it's a classic big headsail/small main sail plan so a big chunk of the drive is coming from the genoa.
I like to trim fairly constantly, but that's just the style of sailing I do. If we're actually going somewhere (i.e. the Admiral is on board), I'll just trim it about right, tie off the tiller and leave the boat to it.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Faster said:


> ... you been spying on us??
> 
> I'm with you there.. to be honest I've always been more of a 'seat of the pants' type sailor than a technical trim/by the numbers guy. We learned to sail, as mentioned above, in a area blessed with strong winds but just a chop and rarely any serious wave action - near perfect training grounds (except for helming in a big sea....) Anyhow we're big believers in traveler usage, and I do tend to pull strings a lot, even now, and we rarely race anymore. The pressure on the helm and the heel angle are our 'dictates'. We'll suffer a fair bit of mainsail backwind if it's not slowing us down, but for a longer leg we'll reef, of course. Much of our sailing is either upwind or down, as the local topography tends to 'steer' the prevailing SE or NW winds along the straits and inlets.
> 
> ...


I am with Paulo here. I sail a boat which points well. It tracks high in 6-12 knots of breeze at hull speed and also has the advanyage of a centerboard when necessary. Our tracks are against the cabin. You have to learn your boiat to see the angles and slot which work best for you. A knot meter vs GPS is a great tool as it is instantaneous feedback.

We dont worry if we are sailing with or into the wind generally, although I am not a fan of dead downwind sailing and usually will avoid it unless spinaker flying. here on the Chesapeake dead downwind means heat stroke. in July and August


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

I am also a "tweaker" when sailing. I am constantly checking my trim and making adjustments, unless I am having lunch or a cocktail! old racing habits die hard I guess! The wife doesn't mind as long as I'm not maker her do the tweaking.

Faster, I hear ya on the "speed bubble"! Being a masthead boat with a high aspect main, the genoa is the most important sail, and the main is just a "trim tab"! When it is windy and I am at the top end of the head sail's wind range it is not uncommon for me to be driving off the last couple of feet of leech on the main, with the rest back-winded. The boat doesn't mind it at all, and keeps pointing like a beast!


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