# Apparently I'm not meant to have a boat...



## jimgo

I'm crushed. The 1980 Allmand 31 we just purchased may be about to be parted out. The damping plate exploded in the engine when the boat was moved from VA to the Northern Chesepeake. The marina was just out to look at it, and they say that the motor mounts were shot, most of the hoses in the engine should have been replaced, the prop shaft was misaligned and cutting through the hull, and the transmission is likely shot. The cost to repair everything will likely exceed the value of the boat.

I had the boat surveyed by someone who was recommended by two different marinas in that area. I can't believe he missed some of these issues.


----------



## chuck53

I'd go back to your surveyor with a written report from your marina. I had an issue with a boat I had bought and the surveyor missed problems. He gave me back his fee plus $500. Didn't begin to cover my repair bill, but better than nothing.


----------



## Alex W

I'm sorry Jim, that's terrible.

Do you have an idea of how long it would take you to do those repairs yourself? Replacing hoses and motor mounts might be things that you can do yourself, while replacing the damping plate is more likely to be something that should be done by a mechanic.

Was the boat hauled during the survey? That level of prop shaft mis-alignment is probably easier to see out of the water than in.


----------



## Capt.aaron

Don't give up. The engine isn't the boat, it's a removeable peice of gear. I just spent $3500 on a piece of equipment for my $3000 boat. There is nothing on a glass boat hull that can't reglassed and beefed up.


----------



## ABH3 Boyer

you could always rip out the old inboard motor and patch the holes. Then install a good outboard motor.


----------



## TQA

OK life is not good just now but before you start up the chain saw lets inventory what you NEED to get things working again. 

You need a damper plate, yup they break, you don't say what the engine and gearbox are but lets say its a Yanmar 2gm plate is about $160.

Most often you need to take the engine and gearbox out to work on it. It can be done afloat with a block and tackle off the boom but spread the load. 

It has made it through 30 + years so it should be possible to put it back the way it was and get a few more. So think hard before making major and expensive changes. 

REMEMBER IF IT AIN'T BROKE DON'T FIX IT.

If the engine mounts have seperated they DO need to be replaced. A failed mount may also have caused the misalignment.

4 mounts are going to be around $600.

So parts less than $1k sweat and knuckle blood come free if you do the job. Capn Fatty managed it so can you.


----------



## PCP

Yes an outboard engine seems to be the best solution in what regards the use of the boat and boat value. After all it is a sailing boat isn't it?


----------



## rockDAWG

Sorry to hear that Jim. 

Don't panic and just walk away for a few day to recompose. Get a couple second opinions and asses the damages. I am sure there are lot that your can DIY with some help. You are not that far from me so I can help too, just let me know. 

Good luck.


----------



## ccriders

I have to disagree with the outboard option. It may not be the least expensive and certainly is not the best operational option. Remember, you have the motor mount, the control lines and the fuel lines and tank. If you settle for hand cranked, then you are going to be hanging over the stern trying to get a %%^^&* outboard started. But most importantly the time you will most depend on the engine is in foul weather and an outboard mounted on the stern of a sailboat is not a good situation as the propeller comes out of the water when bouncing over chop. And then the engine dies, and how do you restart it? By hanging over the stern in heavy chop. Do you single hand? If so this is a non-starter. 
Take the above advice and determine what it takes to fix the inboard and make it dependable for the next ten years.
And don't assume you are not meant to sail. That's crazy talk. Go read Smackdaddy's ode to sailing on his BFS site and steele your nerves for the engine overhaul.


----------



## chuck53

PCP said:


> Yes an outboard engine seems to be the best solution in what regards the use of the boat and boat value. After all it is a sailing boat isn't it?


outboard on a 31' sailboat....not a good idea.


----------



## jimgo

Thanks guys. The engine is a Universal 5416. Yes, I can DIY some of this, and that would be MUCH easier if I was at my home slip. Unfortunately, the boat is "en route" at ChucklesR's slip (bet he's sorry now!  ). I can try to get her moved to a marina not far from there and (hopefully) be able to do the work there, but it's not exactly a convenient location for DIY (it's about 2.5 hours, each way, from home).


----------



## Faster

We have a Davidson 40 racer on our dock with a 20 HP outboard on the back... not ideal, but they really only need it to enter/leave the marina for the most part.

Not ideal..... but doable....

Jimgo, was the survey and out-of-water one? Were you present? Tough go but don't write everything off yet, including some kind of recompense from the "Surveyor".


----------



## chucklesR

I'm only sorry for your troubles. 
If it had gotten towed to a marina in the first place you'd be out an additional 45 a day charge for storage, wouldn't have helped a bit. 
Since towing is 'free', why not look for a slip/haul up towards you (north chesapeake area) and have it towed there?


----------



## smurphny

Lots of good advice above (except going with an outboard). Calmly assess exactly what is wrong and do it yourself. Look at it as an opportunity to get to know the boat. In the long run, if you have to depend on marinas and $80/hr help, it will make owning a boat too expensive. Part of owning a boat for us who cannot afford servants is learning how to fix it.


----------



## jimgo

Yes, survey was in water and out of water. I was there, but I have (or had) no idea what I'm looking at when it comes to an inboard. The surveyor didn't think the hoses were too bad; the marina thinks they are horrible. No mention was made about the motor moutns, nor was there any discussion of the shaft misalignment or the related damage. I would have thought that he would have picked up on those.

I don't think an outboard is in the cards. It will either be a fixed inboard, transmission, etc., or probably scrapping the boat.

I still haven't ruled out that something happened (crab pot/line/etc.) that caused the shaft to seize and, thus, the damping plate to explode, but I'll need to pull her before we can make a determination there.


----------



## bristol299bob

I agree with most of the posters here, "dont give up the ship"!

If this is the boat for you, the repairs might not be so bad. I just replaced the transmission (with used ~$500) all 4 motor mounts (~500 new) and damper plate (~$160 new). All that with the engine in the boat. if you have decent access, and depending on the engine, this is a 2 day job (for an amateur like me).

My engine is a Yanmar 2QM20. Here are pictures

mounts

transmission

So if the boat is otherwise the right boat for you go for it. And be glad that this happened now and not on your maiden sail with the missus!


----------



## Sal Paradise

Just fix it, don't restore it. Time to download a manual, load up your tool box and sleep in the boat for a few days while you replace the damper plate. Leave everything else until later, handle it as an emergency repair until you can get her home and look it over at your leisure. A long weekend and you have to boat running and operational again..


----------



## sony2000

I suggest get it to your home pier and work on it for the summer. Yes fix the dampening plate, and the rest of it can wait till later. Change the transmission oil.
Get back to the PO with what happened. Most reasonable people would rebate you a portion of the purchase price.


----------



## Faster

We have, in the past, fabricated a temporary outboard mount in order to get a boat home where it could be more easily worked on. This might be an option for you even if only to get the boat home... for that matter a couple of hundred bucks for a good mount, 4 holes and a backing plate and you're on your way. It can be removed and the holes filled and faired post repairs.

It could also be something as simple as a couple of 2x6s clamped to a swim ladder...


----------



## Capt.aaron

Can't sail it home huh? I deliver broken sail boats all the time, it's a niche I've found in the delivery game, I bring a little out board and dinghy along to hip tow in and out of tight spots and sail it when I have the sea room. If there is wind I can sail, if not I hip tow. I hip towed a 32 foot Cal with a 2.5 nissan 10 miles in to an anchorage last year. Might be the way to go if you have a dock at home and the boat is 2 and half hours away, sounds like a 2 day sail and a short hip tow up a channel or something like that.


----------



## overbored

jimgo said:


> Thanks guys. The engine is a Universal 5416. Yes, I can DIY some of this, and that would be MUCH easier if I was at my home slip. Unfortunately, the boat is "en route" at ChucklesR's slip (bet he's sorry now!  ). I can try to get her moved to a marina not far from there and (hopefully) be able to do the work there, but it's not exactly a convenient location for DIY (it's about 2.5 hours, each way, from home).


isn't there a rule about borrowing a slip, that says the slip owner must help in all repairs necessary to get his slip back, or was it, he has the right to slip the lines any time he wants you gone. 
it's one of those rules
any thing on a boat can be fixed with enough sweat and some money 
those are nice boats worth fixing
its a sail boat, sail it home


----------



## Minnewaska

I am so sorry to hear this. Crushing, I'm sure.

Take a look at your survey agreement. They almost always exclude the motor or say something to the effect that they will note anything they notice, but suggest a mechanic look it over.

Take a deep breath and consider the plan. Is it insured? If not, I would probably rather fix it, than scrap it and start over. For one, scrapping it will be a huge pain. If she's insured and they'll give you your money back, its certainly not too late to find another. 

The suggestion that the owner refund something is a stretch IMO. They may have had as little idea as you and you accepted her after having her surveyed. Not trying to rub it in, quite the opposite, just suggesting that the PO may not be a good direction, unless you really feel they pulled one over on you.

Again, we all feel for you right now. Lousy way to kick off the season.


----------



## sony2000

Put it down as, all apart of sailing. You'll be sailing a year later and know your boat much better. I don't know the waters your sailing on, but the dinghy, a few friends, and rising to the challenge, will get you some satisfaction.


----------



## chucklesR

If Keith hit something on delivery and that "caused" it then insurance should pick up damages. 

The mouth of the Magothy (where the problem "suddenly" occurred) is indeed usually carpet bombed with crab pots, and a narrow channel through which debris flows. Perhaps a call to him and a detailed report on the circumstances of how and what happened is in order (hint hint). 
Then a haul to prove it.

(Keith was Jim's delivery skipper)


----------



## c. breeze

The shaft misalignment didn't tear up the hull or present itself until the damping plate let go which was the final nail for the motor mounts as well. You're surveyor should have been able to say "these motor mounts are shot, and are prone to failure if stressed" so do get after him such as you can. 

Last December in Nassau a guy let his former backstay (now a dink painter, made of Dyneema) wrap his prop up. It broke both cast motor mount brackets on the motor as well as his motor mounts and one fiberglass stringer that the mounts bolt through. This sat his motor down low enough where the shaft are up the shaft log etc and almost sank the boat. His barking dog below was his salvation- as it had him realize his floorboards were floating. 

We were able to get the brackets rewelded- while we reglassed the stringer and made big backing plates for inside it on both sides. New mounts were ordered from the states. The shaft log was repaired with epoxy stick from the inside. The boat worked fine after. 


Point is- frequently mechanical failures will have a dominoe effect- rather than a simple "weakest link revealing itself" effect. I wouldn't ever consider chain sawing a boat over this. Don't hate the surveyor because he didn't forsee the magnitude of the impending failure. He should have been able to warn against some aspects of it however. And yeah- should come off some money for you. A mechanical survey isn't neccssarrilly part of your marine survey however. As was alluded to a few posts back. 

The other point is
All of this work can be done on the hook. Give chuckles back his slip- and make him drive you around to the parts dealers and hand you tools. Fix boat and go home. I've never had anything other than atomic 4s in a boat of my own- so believe me - I know exactly how demoralizing wrenching on an engine for days at a time- IN A SAILBOAT DAMNIT- can be. I will not tell you that it brings satisfaction when it's done the way installing a slick new traveler or self tailing winches etc is satisfying. I find I feel better about myself an my boat after replacing a flag halyard than I do after pulling an atomic four with my halyard and replacing the rings and bearings in it on the sole if my cabin. It sucks- but when it's over- you'll always remember to **** that motor down as soon as humanly possible- because you never know what's gonna go next... So you'll sail your ass off compared to people who think "motors in sailboats is fun!- it's easie than wind!"

If you want to chainsaw it- ill give you 500 usd toward an outboard and bracket to bring her to sav ga and do it here. I want a few parts, and I've never chainsawed a boat. I also think shooting one with a 12 gauge would be fun.


I think it's a bit premature however to kill her.


----------



## CalebD

So sorry to hear this jimgo (& chuckles).
Chuck makes a convincing case that a crab pot line could have been the catalyst that caused most of your problems. If everything "suddenly" went to he11 then something caused it to occur. Your engine may have been just barely functional before the event but the damages went up your drive train, like a line of dominoes falling. Excessive force on the prop shaft from the wrong direction could do this.

Things may seem bleak now but do not throw in the towel just yet. Think of the positive things: Chuck & Mary have saved you storage fees for $$$45 days (great folks those two!), and now you know the weaknesses in your boat that need to be addressed. If you are new to the wrenching game the thought of doing these repairs yourself may seem daunting or insurmountable, but they are not. You can fix most of this yourself with some thought and consideration. You will also learn a he!! of a lot in the process. 

I'd be looking for a relatively cheap diy yard I could haul the boat out in, then plan a few weekends you could go down and start repairing it. 
- disconnect prop shaft coupling from output flange
- remove motor from mounts
- repair mounts
- bring shaft to prop shop, you might need a new shaft & coupling
- mechanic for damper plate or diy
- check Cutless bearing, shaft log hose and packing gland (all parts you needed to get familiar with anyway)
- reassemble and check shaft alignment

Still, it sucks that this happened when it did.


----------



## chucklesR

Caleb can tell ya all about my landlord Jim.


----------



## TheWollard

I'm so sorry for you Jim! What a setback. 

Keep us posted as you work through this. I have nothing to offer besides moral support. Good luck, buddy.


----------



## CalebD

chucklesR said:


> Caleb can tell ya all about my landlord Jim.


I'd rather not have to recount that tale...


----------



## jimgo

Capt.Aaron, the boat is in Maryland, and the home slip will be in NJ. Hip tow wouldn't be a bad option for a short ride, but I'm not sure I want to move her through the C&D canal, down the Delaware, and up the NJ coast that way. May have to take Chuck's suggestion and move the boat to the Northern end of the Chesse and find a temporary home for her there.


----------



## Shinook

What about replacing it with electric? 

Not that I'm advocating that necessarily, I'm just curious how you think it would compare to putting another diesel in. We are in a similar situation, except we bought our boat that way. 

I hate outboards....but it works (just barely)...


----------



## Capt.aaron

I hear ya, but keep in mind, I delivered a boat that broke down in Jamaica and sailed enginless off the dock, to Columbia, 450 miles south. If it were me, and I had a dock at home. I would hip or sail out to sea, sail north to the nearest inlet to my house and sail or hip tow it to my dock. I understand you not wanting to do this. Also, I haven't even had an engine for 20 years and thousands of miles sailed. This may be a good opportunity for you understand how much you don't need the engine.


----------



## deltaten

Saddens me ta hear of this Jim.
As others have said; take a breath and look at it anew another day. Motor mounts and plates are replaceable. All else is reparable or maint items anyway. Do a self-survey of what'll be needed and shop it out.
I'm sure *someone* will be willing to bear a hand in the repairs


----------



## jimgo

OK, y'all are making me feel better about her, thanks! It was just SO frustrating to hear the marina guy say "well, I think the repair cost is going to be more than the value of the boat". Of course, that does include his labor.

I've asked the captain about any accidents and he says no, but I think he's afraid I'm going to come after him for the repair costs. I think I need to call my insurance company in the AM to find out more about what's covered. Then a call to the surveyor.

Is it possible that the prop tangled in something, then broke the "something" that tangled it? As I understand it, damping plates don't normally "just" fail, but if the shaft suddenly stops (e.g., the transmission seizes or the prop hits something/gets tangled) the centrifugal force can be enough to break the plate. I think that's what happened here. I don't think the transmission seized, unless it happened temporarily, because the shaft can be spun by hand and I believe the shaft is still attached to the transmission. That basically leaves the prop getting tangled in something at some point, but then it had to come free, or else the proop and shaft wouldn't spin (the mechanic was able to spin it by hand today).

If the shaft locked up, could that also have caused the engine mounts to break? I'm guessing they were probably original, so any major force would probably have done them in.

If the motor mounts broke, could have have lead to the misalignment in the shaft? I can understand the misalignment resulting in the shaft wearing into the hull in that area. I don't know how far/bad the wear is; could the shifting of the motor have caused some of that?

The cutlast bearing was great during the survey; it was super stable without any movement.

Sorry for all the questions; just trying to understand before I talk to the surveyor and the insurance company.


----------



## CarbonSink62

So sorry to hear about your troubles, Jim.

Given the situation you have, the outboard idea might be workable.

I just picked up an '04 Honda 9.9hp for $1,300; I had to jump as soon as I saw the ad on Craig's List, but the deals are out there.

IF your transom can accommodate a motor mount, the 9.9 with the extra long leg and 4 blade hi-thust prop would definitely move a 31 foot boat. Not against chop and wind, but it would move it. The control would be dicey during maneuvering, you'd need a dedicated engine man hangin' off the stern rail (and maybe an engine order telegraph!  )

It's far from perfect, but I think it would get you home.*

I upgraded my engine mount, I'd be happy to give you a deal on the old one. It is plenty strong enough, it just doesn't have enough springs to pick up the new motor. If you do go this route, use a real motor mount and not some 2x6 contraption.

Good luck!

Email me if you want that mount, I can put it in the box from the new one, when it arrives. You have my address, I bought the spinnaker from Island Time II.

Ken

*I revise my opinion, it would get you a few hundred yards from home and then you'll need a hip tow to get into your marina.


----------



## jimgo

Aaron, to clarify, the "home" slip isn't at my home; it's at a marina about an hour and a half from my house. But at least that's "free"! 

As to sailing her home, I do understand that, at least in theory, that's an option. The sails haven't been used in several years and need to be more thoroughly inspected before I'd be comfortable relying on them.


----------



## glassdad

Are you sure that the "Marina Guy" is telling you the truth? Or that he is correct? He could be wrong on the severity of the problems.


----------



## ccriders

I just looked at your album and have to say there is no way a boat like that goes to the dumpster. Looks like a really good design for the Barnegat Bay and a wonderful cruising boat. All things considered, you will make use of a dependable inboard diesel, so do some good fixing and get sailing. Caleb's suggestions about the shaft, cutlass and strut are right on and probably should be done anyway just to give you that peace of mind when running a channel or threading through an inlet. 
Your new watch word: "Busted nuckles here I come".


----------



## Capt.aaron

jimgo said:


> Aaron, to clarify, the "home" slip isn't at my home; it's at a marina about an hour and a half from my house. But at least that's "free"!
> 
> As to sailing her home, I do understand that, at least in theory, that's an option. The sails haven't been used in several years and need to be more thoroughly inspected before I'd be comfortable relying on them.


I dig it. Sounds like you'll be doing some driving. My boat was stored a 3 hour drive from my house in my family's back yard in Miami. I drove up every weekend, 52 weekends in a row, to restore it. Labour of love. I made an adventure out of it. Of course driving through the Key's is almost alway's pleasent.


----------



## chef2sail

Jim,

So sorry to hear about this. That sucks. Don't give in yet.

I was going to help Jim move the boat to Barnegat or at least Cape May. I am sad to see this otherwise nice looking and well made boat temporarily incapacitated. Jim don't give up on her. The thoughts of moving her north and having her pulled and having the work done properly are good ones. Maybe the money you would have spent on the marina this year would be wiser spent on repairing her on the hard to use next year. She is a well made boat and just needs a "heart repair".

For those of you who insist with the uniformed posts " just sail it", my thoughts are you need to just stow it. The boat is located in an area which will require a reliable engine for safety and at least for the movement part of the way including the C&D canal, the Delaware River and the Barnegat Inlet.

I highly doubt a crab line this time of the year was the culprit. The boat ( 16 hp 2 cylinder Universal) was motored extremely hard for 2+ days into winds of 25-35 mph and rough 4 foot Chesapeake Bay chop. Weighing 110000 lbs. plus the engine not having been used for over a year, probably contributed to the demise of the already old suspect connecting pieces. The days this boat traveled were rough conditions for any boat much less an unproved one.

Bad motor mounts, badly aligned shaft should have been issue picked up at the time of the survey inspection and I would be hammering at the inspector. Had the inspector found these you would have had to replace them anyway should you have bought this boat.

These are what I would consider normal expenses to be expected when buying a 30 year old boat. However they should have been identified. Hoses are the same issue. I would have expected to replace *ALL* of them on a boat this age when I bought it, if only for peace of mind. Buying an aged boat ( I did also) means you need to reset some of the maintenance items back to zero hour so you know what their expectancy is. Hoses, Transmission fluid, Filters, Starter, Engine mounts, Packing, impellers, alignment etc. all fall into this. I would also add that new injectors, water pumps, restoring thru hulls should be done in the first couple years of owning an older boat...again for peace of mind.

After talking to Jim on the phone a number of times I know he was aware of this and didn't have unrealistic expectations about these eventual expenses. But to be faced immediately right away is a bummer, but should not be the end of the world for this good boat. Jim try not to let this large disappointment make you throw the baby out with the bathwater. Sometime you have to take one step backwards to take two forwards.

Your boat is overall a sound one and in fairly good condition with years left of service. Moving her north through a tow like to the Sassafras would be a good idea. Have her pulled and worked on. Move her to an area you can do the work on her you can to save money, and have a professional do the tranny, shaft alignment and motor mounts all at the same time. Maybe have the engine given a once over would be good also.
Maryland Boat Dealers | Visit Our Maryland Marina | 410-275-8171
This is only 1.5 hours from your house.

The fix may not be as bad as you think. If it is a couple of thousand, which is what I would expect to have it up to snuff, then keep her on a mooring there for the summer. It would cost $1400. That plus the $2000 in repairs would be less than Tall Oaks for the season and you'd have a boat up to snuff.

Maybe Boat US will pay for your tow.

You can replace all the hoses, impeller, fuel filter, belts, and work on the cabin upgrades at the same time.

I and others will help you with whatever we can.

Don give up the ship here matey.


----------



## c. breeze

jimgo said:


> OK, y'all are making me feel better about her, thanks! It was just SO frustrating to hear the marina guy say "well, I think the repair cost is going to be more than the value of the boat". Of course, that does include his labor.
> 
> I've asked the captain about any accidents and he says no, but I think he's afraid I'm going to come after him for the repair costs. I think I need to call my insurance company in the AM to find out more about what's covered. Then a call to the surveyor.
> 
> Is it possible that the prop tangled in something, then broke the "something" that tangled it? As I understand it, damping plates don't normally "just" fail, but if the shaft suddenly stops (e.g., the transmission seizes or the prop hits something/gets tangled) the centrifugal force can be enough to break the plate. I think that's what happened here. I don't think the transmission seized, unless it happened temporarily, because the shaft can be spun by hand and I believe the shaft is still attached to the transmission. That basically leaves the prop getting tangled in something at some point, but then it had to come free, or else the proop and shaft wouldn't spin (the mechanic was able to spin it by hand today).
> 
> If the shaft locked up, could that also have caused the engine mounts to break? I'm guessing they were probably original, so any major force would probably have done them in.
> 
> If the motor mounts broke, could have have lead to the misalignment in the shaft? I can understand the misalignment resulting in the shaft wearing into the hull in that area. I don't know how far/bad the wear is; could the shifting of the motor have caused some of that?
> 
> The cutlast bearing was great during the survey; it was super stable without any movement.
> 
> Sorry for all the questions; just trying to understand before I talk to the surveyor and the insurance company.


I basically outlined that scenario for you as being the most likely.

Again,I dealt with this on a fellows boat and it was caused specifically by the shaft wrapping up a line until it was snug enough to tear the motor free of the boat, breaking the cast motor mount brackets, a motor mount and the fiberglass stringers that held them. Yay dyneema, possibly a poor choice of dinghy painter material- but anyway. Once the motor mounts break, and the motor drops 1-2" then the shaft is signifgantly out of alignment at which point your shaft goes to work on its seal, the shaft log and eventually your hull, It is likely that you will end up taking on water once you lift the motor back into place. When I dealt with this on that boat in NAssau haulout wasnt an option. I coated the shaft with jonson paste wax once the motor was back in place, and used stick epoxy that works under water to rebuild the lip on the shaft log where the boot covers it, additonally I packed the area around the shaft snug to the shaft, rellying on the paste wax to prevent bonding of the shaft to the epoxy- essentially bedding it, and coming very close to sealing it. NOt what one wants for the life of the boat, but a legitimate fix to allow the motor to be used, and get through unti the next haulout, when the shaft can be pulled and the log, bearing, gland, seals etc rebuilt/ replaced.

Take a toilet paper roll, and then take wooden dowel, or a pencil or what have you, and place it in the toilet paper roll, centered- representing proprer shaft/log alignment, now raise one end of the pencil, while dropping the other, you now have the "shaft" making contact both for and aft in the "log", and can see how it can tear up the log, the seal, the bearings, and the shaft.

There really isnt anything about 95% of the work facing you that actually calls for any real technical knowhow- but yeah, some serious sweat equity.


----------



## Capt.aaron

Sorry Chef, I thought it was a sail boat on the water, other wise I would have never suggested sailing it home.


----------



## chef2sail

Capt.aaron said:


> Sorry Chef, I thought it was a sail boat on the water, other wise I would have never suggested sailing it home.


Aaron,

Maybe I was a bit harsh. I respect your posts.

Of course its a sailboat in the water, but you are prohibited from sailing through the C&D Canal ( 18 miles) and also trying sailing down the Delaware is a mission of failure and with light winds, no place to anchor, and 48 miles of shallow choppy water with a 3 knot current which reverses every 6 hours could take a few days vs 6 hours of motoring ( almost every sailboat transits this stretch of the Delaware by motoring), then to attempt a NJ Inlet by sail only with no motor backup let alone Barneget is foolish.

There are places where even if you have a sailboat, not using its motor is not prudent. This is not the wide open ocean.


----------



## Capt.aaron

I get it. But can't he go out in the Atlantic, sail north to N.J. and then Back in. I know sailboats that handle worse than a modern boat sailed these waters for hundreds of years before the eng. was invented. When my eng. died for good 20 years ago, I sailed it 400 miles home, through draw bridges, creeks strong tidals and learned how well I could get by with out it, I never put it back in. True I'm misinformed on the actual area, and I can take a "Stow it" comment, and I to respect your posts and oppinions, but I bet he could sail it from Maryland to N.J. Maybe not up through the way your say'n. He might have to back track, go out and .............aH @#!*% what do I know? He's probably 40 miles up river and and has to get 40 miles up another you're right I'll stow it.


----------



## CalebD

While sailing a sail boat to a destination by wind alone is certainly possible I am not sure that it is always advisable. Not everyone has the "Captain Ron" gene in them.

I also get the sense that Jimgo is perhaps not that experienced and probably too sensible than to want to push his luck. 

As Mr. Chef pointed out the currents an inlets along his route are reason enough to want to do it with a working engine. 

I also prefer sailing to motoring but it is a necessary evil for most of us as well as a safety component.


----------



## OxKaufman

Sorry for your loss!

This just reinforces my observation that sailboat surveyors are surveying a sailboat and therefore ignore the mechanicals that aren't associated with rigging, steering and hull. Any sailboat that has an auxiliary engine really needs a surveyor to opine on the sailboat and a mechanic to opine on the condition of things mechanical.

Talk to a lawyer. You may have recourse against the seller, a broker or...who knows!


----------



## bljones

Jim, this is GREAT NEWS!
It happened on the Magothy, not out there.
And you don't have cancer.
The boat hasn't sunk.
And you don't have dementia.
You're at a free slip.
And you don't live in North Korea.
This gives you the chance to make the most suspect complicated system on the boat bulletproof, on your terms, and provides you the opportunity to become familiar with the system that most scares most sailors.
And you don't live life breathing through a tube.

This is just money and time, man. Think of it as an opportunity, take your time, do most of the work yourself, any machining that needs to be done can be done by any truck or tractor shop and it will cost you a lot less than you think it will. 

Ferpetersake, don't hang an outbaord on the back. at the end of the day the difference in cost is really hundreds, not thousands, and if you start on the "well, this is cheaper and faster and good enough" route from the very first major project on the boat, you might as well cut her up now... rather than spending the next few years fixing fixes and chasing problems and being dissatisfied with your boat and basically despoiling a girl who just wants to be loved. 

As the old saying goes- if you haven't got the time or money to do it right, when will you have the time and money to do it again?

Take pride in your ride.


----------



## jimgo

bljones, despite my initial post, believe it or not, your comment is similar to my attitude up to this point. I was really OK with the engine breaking down - I was glad that it happened to the captain and not me.  We got the engine working last weekend (the starter) and, with the help of everyone here, I was able to figure out that it was the damping plate that had failed. So, I was OK with having to replace that, and even having to replace the transmission, but the marina's feedback was really just crushing.

As Chef said, I was OK with having to put money into the boat. But I was REALLY hoping to do that on my own timescale, not right away, before we even had a chance to take her out!


----------



## bljones

I hear you, man. Life happens when you least expect it, and it never seems to be when you can most afford it.
Welcome to sailing. Exhilarating power under sail, punctuated by inconvenient, unexpected irregular infusions of astonishing amounts of cash.


----------



## bljones

You may be able to do the work you need to do without removing the engine, which saves both time and money. Remove jack and support the engine, remove the tranny, shaft, etc, rebuild replace as needed. reinstall, jack the drivetrain to replace mounts, align shaft, go.

Start advertising now on CL and surfing the web for a good used gearbox or complete drivetrain. By placing wanted ads, you have more control over the price you will pay for the parts you need.


----------



## katsailor

I have a 5416 motor and trans we just pulled for my repower project. It's old but it runs and it is on a pallet.
dan


----------



## chef2sail

Capt.aaron said:


> I get it. But can't he go out in the Atlantic, sail north to N.J. and then Back in. I know sailboats that handle worse than a modern boat sailed these waters for hundreds of years before the eng. was invented. When my eng. died for good 20 years ago, I sailed it 400 miles home, through draw bridges, creeks strong tidals and learned how well I could get by with out it, I never put it back in. True I'm misinformed on the actual area, and I can take a "Stow it" comment, and I to respect your posts and oppinions, but I bet he could sail it from Maryland to N.J. Maybe not up through the way your say'n. He might have to back track, go out and .............aH @#!*% what do I know? He's probably 40 miles up river and and has to get 40 miles up another you're right I'll stow it.


Ha you make me chuckle. He's only 25 miles from the top of he Chessie. The 18 miles of narrow canal ( no sailing allowed) , then 48 miles in a nasty tidal river. I ave actually sailed some of the Delaware , but 90% of the sailboats motor it.

Now you are Cape May NJ and certainly sail able up the coast, but to Coe in he extreme dangerous inlet which is narrowed and no tacking you really need to motor in the Inlet at Barneget. Total trip 120 miles

Alternatively he could sail down he Cheesie (120 miles to the entrance to the Atlantic ) then up to Barnegat ( 192 Miles) but still need the motor to safely come in. Total is 310 miles vs 120.


----------



## chef2sail

Jim,

Don't give up. BL Jones is right. Glad we talked tonight. I know its frustrating. You got a good boat. She just needs heart bypass. The body is fine.

Dave


----------



## jimgo

Thanks again guys; the feedback has been very helpful. I broke the news to my wife earlier today, and I have to say that I was pleasantly surprised by her reaction. We're still needing key pieces of information (e.g., worst-case and best-case estimates from the marina that include actual dollar figures, whether the insurance company will pick up any part of it, etc.), so we're not quite ready to take a shotgun or chainsaw to her yet. I have a few phone calls to make in the morning, then I should be in a better position to figure out the plan. I think the leading candidate is still to have the marina do the repairs, but to take the time pressure off of them. If they'll work a deal on storing her on land for me (they're dropping boats in the water now), I'm OK with waiting a few weeks for the repairs if necessary. If I'm not going to be doing the engine repairs (and I'd REALLY prefer not to), then I'm OK with her being 2.5 hours away. I can still go down and knock out a few things that I want done.

The next trick will be getting the parts for the engine. I've found a used transmission, but I'm leaning toward a new one, if I can find a direct drop-in for the HBW-5. The engine seemed to run OK, so I'm not inclined to replace that (unless I found a REALLY good deal on one that I knew was in great shape). I'll probably go ahead and replace the motor mounts if they really do appear to be shot, or even worn, and will need to find those, too. Then, of course, there's the damping plate itself.

One of my frustrations is that Silver Cloud Marina, where we're headed, is a Westerbeke dealer and authorized service center, where the local marina isn't. That means (at least in my mind) that our home marina would have been much better prepared to help fix the engine. I've E-mailed Silver Cloud to see if they might have in stock any of the parts I need. This way I can give them some business, too, and start a relationship there. The local marina needs to order the parts anyway, so this should be OK.

Anyway, that's the plan as of now. Once I have cost information and have a chance to talk to the insurance company, that may change a bit. But that's the current plan.


----------



## Minnewaska

If it's of any help (marginal at best), the quality and reliability of the work you have done will be most dependent on the individual that does it, not the marina's affiliation as an official vendor. 

The "authorized" vendors may have better parts inventory, but I don't even find that all that competitive in the days of the internet. Customers can source parts as fast as boat yards. I even got one part faster than the authorized dealer could last year, because he didn't have a 'relationship' with the online source. Meaning he wasn't going to be able to buy it at wholesale. He was going to have to literally wait a month for the manufacturer, while I had it dropped shipped to him overnight mail the next day.

Try to get a feeling, if not references, for who is actually going to be touching your boat.

I'm sure it will all work out in the end. 

Hey, I just ordered $4,000 worth of parts for my volvo (turbo charger and exhaust elbow). Not fun, I get it. Still can't wait to get her sailing again.


----------



## deniseO30

Jim it all sounds terrible but the work is really not that hard to do. and it can be done with her in the water if the shaft seal is intact. flex plates just don't last imho. I won't be surprised when the one on my same engine/trans combination goes.


----------



## TQA

Hmm



> The cutlast bearing was great during the survey; it was super stable without any movement.


That is not normal, a cutlass brg usually has some movement. That plus evidence of shaft tube wear due to misalignment strongly suggests a failed engine mount to me. If that evidence was present at the time of the survey then the surveyor should have caught it.


----------



## Capt.aaron

Sounds to me like the engine mounts where comprimised, the eng was jumping around on the dude delivering it and it wore down the cutlass. It took that first shake down for the problem to show itself. That's what shake downs do. You take an old boat out and see what breaks.


----------



## Jeff_H

I may be completely out of step with everyone on this, but if the OP bought the boat cheaply enough that, as he suggests, it is economically viable to parts the boat out, then perhaps that may actually make some sense considering that these are boats which have comparatively low market value, and which are known for mediocre sailing ability and pretty shoddy construction. 

To me this sounds like potentially a major money pit, which given the boat's pedigree may make more sense to part out than restore. Obviously, never having seen the boat I could be very wrong on this, and I acknowledge for example, I don't know what shape the sails, rigging, chain plates, rudder and steering gear, structural framing, electrical and plumbing systems, galley equipment, instrumentation and so on are in. But if the boat is so badly maintained that it is being used with a bent prop shaft and bad engine mounts, I can only imagine what other hidden major problems may be lurking below the surface and which would not have come up in a survey. 

While there are cases where it may make sense to restore a boat even when it does not make economic sense, respectfully in my opinion that only makes sense on a comparatively rare boat (where you could not simply buy another one in great shape for less) and which has a particularly nice design with good quality construction. Iin other words, its only worth it if this is a boat with 'good bones' that would be a great boat to own once restored. Based on my experience with the Allmand 31's, that would not be the case here.

Jeff


----------



## zeehag

you LOVE the boat. 
boat is worthy
you will find a way to repair without a smuch price as is quoted. find someon ewho knows how to do this work--any GOOD derelict sailor with a lot of experience should know how to do this --especially if he was a motor bike racer or a car racer or someone who played with engines a loong time and sails also.
you may even find someone here on forum who is in area and wants to help---
dont throw baby out with bath water.
btw--i need to do same work on mine but so far, i am still able to run..with hourly and as needed monitoring.


----------



## CalebD

Minnewaska said:


> I'm sure it will all work out in the end.
> 
> Hey, I just ordered $4,000 worth of parts for my volvo (turbo charger and exhaust elbow). Not fun, I get it. Still can't wait to get her sailing again.


Jimgo,

At least the engine in your Allmand isn't a Volvo!!!
Replacement parts prices for Volvo diesels are through the roof.


----------



## JimMcGee

Jim,
Just saw this thread. Sorry to hear this, but as Capt. Aaron said earlier these things happen on a shakedown cruise. As I posted in your trip planning thread our delivery trip up the bay was far too interesting  But it does get better. 

Capt. Aaron, cut the poor guy some slack. You have more sea miles under your keel than Popeye. He's new to all this. 

Jim, start with a couple of phone calls. If BoatUS is your insurance company call them and tell them what happened and that you suspect you may have hit something under water that caused the damage. Then find out what the real limits of unlimited towing are. Can they get you to Tall Oaks or get your to Winters Marina in Philadelphia (closer to home)? Or does the policy state closest marina for haul out? If it's closest marina talk it over with Chuckles and figure out where you really want to haul.

Then call Dave at Silver Cloud/Tall Oaks. Minnewaska was right, there is a huge difference in the competence of marine mechanics. Silver Cloud has an excellent reputation for quality work. They're not the cheapest around but they stand behind their work. My personal experience with them has been very positive.

Next pack up your coffee pot, a ceramic heater, a bottle of rum, a bottle of coke and a blanket. Friday night drive down and invite Chuckles on board for a few rum and cokes and laugh at your misfortune. The next morning make a pot of hot coffee and drink it in the cockpit. Watch the birds and the ducks playing in the water. You'll remember why you bought a boat in the first place and things won't seem quite as bad.

Jim


----------



## c. breeze

JimMcGee said:


> Next pack up your coffee pot, a ceramic heater, a bottle of rum, a bottle of coke and a blanket. Friday night drive down and invite Chuckles on board for a few rum and cokes and laugh at your misfortune. The next morning make a pot of hot coffee and drink it in the cockpit. Watch the birds and the ducks playing in the water. You'll remember why you bought a boat in the first place and things won't seem quite as bad.
> 
> Jim


Too bad it took as many pages to get some sound advice.


----------



## Cruisingdad

Very sorry to hear about all of this too. If you were to be rid of the boat and relace, you still would not know what you had. At least this way, when you are done, you will know. SO I too vote to rebuild the engine. It will be a great learning piece and you will know what you have.

Brian


----------



## Capt.aaron

JimMcGee said:


> Jim,
> Just saw this thread. Sorry to hear this, but as Capt. Aaron said earlier these things happen on a shakedown cruise. As I posted in your trip planning thread our delivery trip up the bay was far too interesting  But it does get better.
> 
> Capt. Aaron, cut the poor guy some slack. You have more sea miles under your keel than Popeye. He's new to all this.
> 
> Jim, start with a couple of phone calls. If BoatUS is your insurance company call them and tell them what happened and that you suspect you may have hit something under water that caused the damage. Then find out what the real limits of unlimited towing are. Can they get you to Tall Oaks or get your to Winters Marina in Philadelphia (closer to home)? Or does the policy state closest marina for haul out? If it's closest marina talk it over with Chuckles and figure out where you really want to haul.
> 
> Then call Dave at Silver Cloud/Tall Oaks. Minnewaska was right, there is a huge difference in the competence of marine mechanics. Silver Cloud has an excellent reputation for quality work. They're not the cheapest around but they stand behind their work. My personal experience with them has been very positive.
> 
> Next pack up your coffee pot, a ceramic heater, a bottle of rum, a bottle of coke and a blanket. Friday night drive down and invite Chuckles on board for a few rum and cokes and laugh at your misfortune. The next morning make a pot of hot coffee and drink it in the cockpit. Watch the birds and the ducks playing in the water. You'll remember why you bought a boat in the first place and things won't seem quite as bad.
> 
> Jim


Hey Hey, I told Chef I would stow it on the "sail it home" idea like 3 pages ago. Great advice on the rum, the coffee and the cockpit. It has been exactly these moments in the quiet morning that I have had my epiphany's. Bad advice on the coke, drink it out of the bottle man, what are we teenager's?


----------



## JimMcGee

Capt.aaron said:


> Bad advice on the coke, drink it out of the bottle man, what are we teenager's?


C'mon man I want him to wake up with an epiphany not a hangover! :laugher


----------



## sww914

Sleep on it before you decide. Buy the book, gather your tools, and do the job. There isn't any rocket science involved, just a lot of righty-tighty and leftie-loosie.


----------



## Capt.aaron

Exactly why I don't mix my rum with sugar juice. Clean booze clean buzz.


----------



## PorFin

Jim,

Bummer of a development, but like (almost) everyone's already stated it's not a death sentence.

Look at it this way -- if this hadn't happened now, it would certainly have happened within a couple of years. You would have had to address it anyway, so it's great to know right off the bat that you've got this part of the system squared away for many, many years to come (as long as you do your diligent preventive maintenance checks and services, which will be much more likely since you've got a lot of skin in the game.)

We're all rooting for you and your new baby.


----------



## chucklesR

JimMcGee said:


> Next pack up your coffee pot, a ceramic heater, a bottle of rum, a bottle of coke and a blanket. Friday night drive down and invite Chuckles on board for a few rum and cokes and laugh at your misfortune. The next morning make a pot of hot coffee and drink it in the cockpit. Watch the birds and the ducks playing in the water. You'll remember why you bought a boat in the first place and things won't seem quite as bad.
> 
> Jim


I can work with that, provided we come up with a plan to move the boat soon. I've even got the rum and coke zero. 
When you mix it, you can drink more (or at least not fall down as fast).

Ya'll have to understand the 'free' slip isn't free to me - I rent, and have a land lord that has problems with me having quests that are not actually here (i.e. using her dock as a marina). So it's costing me skin off my hind end, and the ability to do future invites. 
Jim, I'll be here all weekend.


----------



## Capt.aaron

Yeah, no such thing as a free slip. Even my dock in Honduras which I own has cost me 2 grand this year. My neighbors are always tied to it, and they don't ever bring rum.


----------



## chrisncate

Sorry to hear it, bummer. 

My view is that it's a bad idea to get sentimental with boats, I'd take the opportunity to move on.


----------



## TakeFive

chrisncate said:


> Sorry to hear it, bummer.
> 
> My view is that it's a bad idea to get sentimental with boats, I'd take the opportunity to move on.


I'm really sorry to hear about Jim's misfortune.

But I don't think this is about sentimentality, it's about risk management and practicality. There's a certain price/displacement ratio that's always going to have some risk involved. So if he dumps this boat and gets another similar boat, the next one might have similar or worse problems. Only if you alter the ratio by going higher in price and/or lower displacement (i.e., a newer, more reliable but costlier or smaller boat) do you get a little less risk.

It sounds to me like the stuff that failed was destined to fail on a boat this age. It would have been replaced in the next couple of years, but unfortunately has to be done now before he can enjoy the boat. But once it's done, he can be confident that he'll have reliable aux power.

This whole concept of "it'll cost more than the boat is worth" is always a bit misleading. Any low cost boat is going to need greater maintenance and repairs. So you're inviting that when you buy it. The correct comparison is not really between repair cost and current boat value, it's between repair cost (current and anticipated future) and anticipated enjoyment of this particular vessel. In other words, what's this boat worth to YOU? But always keep in mind that dumping this boat and getting another could just be a replay of the same experience, unless you alter your price/displacement ratio in a different way.


----------



## chucklesR

Jim, 
I took some time to think a bit.

What you need is to have it hauled, and put a claim in to the insurance company for damages. 
They will then *have to *have it inspected and *prove* that the problem was not caused by hitting something (i.e., normal wear and tear). 
They will have a hard time proving that when faced by a written report from the delivery skipper, and the FACT that he motored against 20-30 kt winds for 2 days prior to the catastrophic and sudden failure of the transmission.

Play hard ball with them, you have literally nothing to lose.


----------



## Minnewaska

CalebD said:


> Jimgo,
> 
> At least the engine in your Allmand isn't a Volvo!!!
> Replacement parts prices for Volvo diesels are through the roof.


I'm not loving it, but I find the general perception to be overstated, unless really getting into specialty parts.

100hp turbo charged diesel.

Turbo = 3,100
Elbow = 900

What would equivalent parts be on a 100hp Yanmar? You can't compare it to a 35hp.


----------



## CalebD

Minnewaska said:


> I'm not loving it, but I find the general perception to be overstated, unless really getting into specialty parts.
> 
> 100hp turbo charged diesel.
> 
> Turbo = 3,100
> Elbow = 900
> 
> What would equivalent parts be on a 100hp Yanmar? You can't compare it to a 35hp.


For the price you spent on parts I could almost afford a newly refurbished Atomic 4.

Actually it is not just Volvo diesels that have a ridiculous markup for parts. 
For a friends Universal engine I priced new injectors at Torreson: $90 per injector (x 3 cylinders = $270). 
With some cross referencing to the Kubota engine block I found the same injectors for around $8 per (x 33 cylinders = $24). That is one astounding mark up for a marine use product that tractor owners pay nearly 90% less for the same item.
Not sure if you can source Volvo parts that way (from truck or heavy equipment dealers).
You would have to put a gun to my head to get me to buy a boat with an older Volvo or Farymann diesel in it. 
I'm spoiled from owning an Atomic 4 which is easy to self service and parts cost about what they should. Guess I'm just a cheap azzed, bottom feeding boater, but that is my story and I'm sticking to it.


----------



## Minnewaska

CalebD said:


> For the price you spent on parts I could almost afford a newly refurbished Atomic 4.
> 
> I'm spoiled from owning an Atomic 4 which is easy to self service and parts cost about what they should. Guess I'm just a cheap azzed, bottom feeding boater, but that is my story and I'm sticking to it.


Good on ya. Everyone should be happy with the bed they're sleeping in!

My Volvo is only 8 yrs old. Toasted the turbo, because a mech reinstalled the heat shield cover incorrectly and jammed the waste gate open. But I will never know which one.

What is an A4 in hp? 30? That's not a fair compare. But I get your point.


----------



## chrisncate

TakeFive said:


> I'm really sorry to hear about Jim's misfortune.
> 
> But I don't think this is about sentimentality, it's about risk management and practicality. There's a certain price/displacement ratio that's always going to have some risk involved. So if he dumps this boat and gets another similar boat, the next one might have similar or worse problems. Only if you alter the ratio by going higher in price and/or lower displacement (i.e., a newer, more reliable but costlier or smaller boat) do you get a little less risk.
> 
> It sounds to me like the stuff that failed was destined to fail on a boat this age. It would have been replaced in the next couple of years, but unfortunately has to be done now before he can enjoy the boat. But once it's done, he can be confident that he'll have reliable aux power.
> 
> This whole concept of "it'll cost more than the boat is worth" is always a bit misleading. Any low cost boat is going to need greater maintenance and repairs. So you're inviting that when you buy it. The correct comparison is not really between repair cost and current boat value, it's between repair cost (current and anticipated future) and anticipated enjoyment of this particular vessel. In other words, what's this boat worth to YOU? But always keep in mind that dumping this boat and getting another could just be a replay of the same experience, unless you alter your price/displacement ratio in a different way.


My view on these matters is biased. It's easy to waste a lot of money and time on an old boat because you love the boat.

I really meant to express that one should try to take a critical eye when thinking about getting into a moderate project like this. The "what's it worth to you" idea is one I am very familiar with, as I often justified what I did expressing that very sentiment. I no longer subscribe to that notion after trying it though.

Now I believe in the "what's it worth to a sane person/would a sane person do what I am thinking about doing" notion. Things seem to be working out better this way so far...


----------



## TakeFive

chrisncate said:


> My view on these matters is biased. It's easy to waste a lot of money and time on an old boat because you love the boat.
> 
> I really meant to express that one should try to take a critical eye when thinking about getting into a moderate project like this. The "what's it worth to you" idea is one I am very familiar with, as I often justified what I did expressing that very sentiment. I no longer subscribe to that notion after trying it though.
> 
> Now I believe in the "what's it worth to a sane person/would a sane person do what I am thinking about doing" notion. Things seem to be working out better this way so far...


I don't disagree with you. I'm just saying that buying another large, old, inexpensive, risky boat could end up in the same result or worse, so giving up this one and starting over with another similar boat is just doubling down on the same risks. IMO the most direct way to reduce the risk is to spend more or go smaller (assuming it's from a reputable builder). But people have budget limits and want a certain size boat for various reasons, so they take the risk (and sometimes it ends up costing them).


----------



## jimgo

Chrisncate, that's basically the analysis I'm going through. So far, the local marina hasn't given me a written description of their findings, nor have they given me an estimate for the costs. We paid a nice price for teh boat, one where we could invest a few thousand and still have "equity" left in the boat. We had hoped not to make that investment SO soon.

Chuck, I've asked the local marina to pull the boat; haven't heard back from them. I'll give you a call tomorrow.


----------



## chrisncate

jimgo said:


> Chrisncate, that's basically the analysis I'm going through. So far, the local marina hasn't given me a written description of their findings, nor have they given me an estimate for the costs. We paid a nice price for teh boat, one where we could invest a few thousand and still have "equity" left in the boat. We had hoped not to make that investment SO soon.
> 
> Chuck, I've asked the local marina to pull the boat; haven't heard back from them. I'll give you a call tomorrow.


Well, either way I hope it works out for you 

Post some pics of the haul out when it happens?


----------



## Capt.aaron

Well, I have invested 10 grand in my 3 thousand dollar boat since christmas, and by the end of the month it will be at about 14 grand. You know why, because when you are 300 miles off shore, the ocean does'nt give a hoot what your boat yard bill was, it will chew you up and spit you out regardless. Am I emotionally attached to her, absolutly, I'm not however emotionally attached to the money I spent. I'm absorbed in restoring her and prepping her for another voyage. I worked my but off and spent the money with a smile. Most recently on my Capehorn self steering device. And I still don't have an engine! or any fancy electronics. I love my boat with all my heart, we've been through a lot together.


----------



## bljones

With all due respect to Jeff H, He's dead wrong.
That is not my romantic side talking, but the pragmatic side.
the cost and time to repair known issues on a known boat is always, always, always less expensive and less time consuming than finding and buying a different unknown used boat and dealing with unknown issues.
It is also less time consuming than parting out a boat, then finding a new boat to replace the old boat. Add up all of the hidden costs- storage fees, dumpster fees, gas and meal costs while shopping for a new boat, the time it takes to sell the parts, etc.,...
... and then dealing with the new punchlist on the new boat.
If we all gave up on our boats because they were of marginal quality and inferior sailors, there would be a hell of a lot fewer sailors.
and a hell of a lot fewer grins.
and a hell of a lot fewer circumnavigations.
and a hell of a lot fewer great stories to tell.


Ferpetessake, it seems to me that the best adventures are had on inferior boats. "Spray" and "Dove" come to mind as examples of average, or worse, boats which more than did the job.


----------



## Capt.aaron

bljones said:


> with all due respect to jeff h, he's dead wrong.
> That is not my romantic side talking, but the pragmatic side.
> The cost and time to repair known issues on a known boat is always, always, always less expensive and less time consuming than finding and buying a different unknown used boat and dealing with unknown issues.
> It is also less time consuming than parting out a boat, then finding a new boat to replace the old boat. Add up all of the hidden costs- storage fees, dumpster fees, gas and meal costs while shopping for a new boat, the time it takes to sell the parts, etc.,...
> ... And then dealing with the new punchlist on the new boat.
> If we all gave up on our boats because they were of marginal quality and inferior sailors, there would be a @#!*% of a lot fewer sailors.
> And a @#!*% of a lot fewer grins.
> And a @#!*% of a lot fewer circumnavigations.
> And a @#!*% of a lot fewer great stories to tell.
> Ferpetessake, it seems to me that the best adventures are had on inferior boats. "spray" and "dove" come to mind as examples of average, or worse, boats which more than did the job.


amen.


----------



## jimgo

I looked into having her towed to NJ and to the Sassafras. BoatUS considers this a "dock to dock" tow, which is only covered 50%. The move to NJ is $20-25,000. The move to the Sassafras was $3,000. A move over to Rock Hall is $1100 (all of those are pre-discount prices). Rock Hall would at least get me to a wider selection of marinas in a small area.


----------



## chrisncate

jimgo said:


> I looked into having her towed to NJ and to the Sassafras. BoatUS considers this a "dock to dock" tow, which is only covered 50%. The move to NJ is $20-25,000. The move to the Sassafras was $3,000. A move over to Rock Hall is $1100 (all of those are pre-discount prices). Rock Hall would at least get me to a wider selection of marinas in a small area.


Huh, I used to be on the Magothy... have you considered Atlantic Marina to haul and work at?


----------



## chrisncate

Capt.aaron said:


> Well, I have invested 10 grand in my 3 thousand dollar boat since christmas, and by the end of the month it will be at about 14 grand. You know why, because when you are 300 miles off shore, the ocean does'nt give a hoot what your boat yard bill was, it will chew you up and spit you out regardless. Am I emotionally attached to her, absolutly, I'm not however emotionally attached to the money I spent. I'm absorbed in restoring her and prepping her for another voyage. I worked my but off and spent the money with a smile. Most recently on my Capehorn self steering device. And I still don't have an engine! or any fancy electronics. I love my boat with all my heart, we've been through a lot together.


The Cape Horn _is_ impressive... call me when you install that Plath 7B though...


----------



## Minnewaska

I have a storage unit with stuff in it that has become worth less than I've paid in storage. It's just an incredible pain to sell the stuff or even give it away. I have to drive there, show it to you, help you load it, match schedules, take pictures, advertise, deal with stupid scam replies, etc. Parting out a boat would be extremely time consuming. I'm not saying it shouldn't be done, but be realistic, if you consider it.

As for towing, you should definitely call around. That area is just staring to get busy, so you may find a tow company that would take a discounted big job, if you can be a little flexible. Shortly, they'll have no time.

The experience of getting a big scare from a marina, then nothing to back it up should concern you. I'm a huge critic of boat yards and could write a book on maladies over the years. There are fish in the sea of boaters that will just open the checkbook and authorize them to do whatever they think necessary. Boat yards are always trolling for that big fish. Don't bite.


----------



## Capt.aaron

chrisncate said:


> The Cape Horn _is_ impressive... call me when you install that Plath 7B though...


Is a Plath 7 b one of those winches made out of solid gold and runs on the blood of flightless dragons? I'll never be able to afford one of those. I am, How ever, in the Market for a single action windless that accepts 5/8 chain. If any body see's one at a flea market, pick one up for me would ya, I'm good for it. 
The Capehorn, yes, the most impressive thing I've ever bought, well second to my wifes ring...no wait, I sold my boat once and bought it back, so after my wifes ring and the boat, the Capehorn self sterring device is the third most impressive thing I've bought......and my 1978 jeep J10m, midnight blue
(in a full moon) pick up truck with the original AM-CB radio and Levis seat covers. those, in order are the things I've most impressed my self with.
That Capehorn better thread my boat through a needle in either 30 knots or 3 of wind, up and or down it. I'm impressed with Yves, ( he actully answered the phone when I called to order) his voyage and his company service. The unit arrives the day I get off the tug next week. I have 2 weeks to install and shake down the boat and then back to sea. Worth every penny thus far.


----------



## chucklesR

jimgo said:


> Chrisncate, that's basically the analysis I'm going through. So far, the local marina hasn't given me a written description of their findings, nor have they given me an estimate for the costs. We paid a nice price for teh boat, one where we could invest a few thousand and still have "equity" left in the boat. We had hoped not to make that investment SO soon.
> 
> Chuck, I've asked the local marina to pull the boat; haven't heard back from them. I'll give you a call tomorrow.


Thanks Jim. 
Keep in mind if you come to work on it for over nighters you have a place to stay. 
Do the 443#, I'll be moving about all day.


----------



## Quickstep192

I'm a little perplexed by the economics of this. The mechanic said the repairs exceed the value of the boat.... Is that based on the current value, or the value after the repairs? I'd imagine a boat like that with a reliable power plant would be worth more than one that had those repairs waiting for the next owner. If you had bought the boat new in 1980 and still owned it, the need for those repairs would have arisen anyway; maybe not all at once, but you still would have had to pay the piper. Back to the economics for a minute; A quick look on yacht world seems to indicate that an 80's vintage Allmand 31 is worth about $20k. I'm not a mechanic by any stretch of the imagination, but $20k for those repairs sounds like a lot. Even at half that, it feels like a stretch.


----------



## Minnewaska

quickstep did a better job of explaining my point. Boat yards will first try to see if they have a blank check. Painful but true.


----------



## jimgo

chrisncate said:


> Huh, I used to be on the Magothy... have you considered Atlantic Marina to haul and work at?


No. Are they decent?

My thinking is that, since Ferry Point isn't responding, I'm going to have to pay for towing, whether it's over to Rock Hall or up to Atlantic Marina. I haven't priced it out yet, but the cost difference between those two destinations may be quickly offset by the skill of the mechanics and the available equipment. Looking at Active Captain and reviews other places, Haven Harbour seems to have a good reputation. They also seem to have the equipment to handle my boat and engine. I can't find too much about Atlantic. Can you tell me more?


----------



## chucklesR

Jim
That's a real small yard on Grey's creek. I don't think it will do you.


----------



## jimgo

Thanks Chuck. I spoke with Haven Harbour. They have the room to be able to take me, and should be able to look at the engine some time next week. I'm going to talk to BoatUS about getting towed over there tomorrow.


----------



## Capt.aaron

Quickstep192 said:


> I'm a little perplexed by the economics of this. The mechanic said the repairs exceed the value of the boat.... Is that based on the current value, or the value after the repairs? I'd imagine a boat like that with a reliable power plant would be worth more than one that had those repairs waiting for the next owner. If you had bought the boat new in 1980 and still owned it, the need for those repairs would have arisen anyway; maybe not all at once, but you still would have had to pay the piper. Back to the economics for a minute; A quick look on yacht world seems to indicate that an 80's vintage Allmand 31 is worth about $20k. I'm not a mechanic by any stretch of the imagination, but $20k for those repairs sounds like a lot. Even at half that, it feels like a stretch.


I bet an 1980 Allmand with a messed up engine would sell for 5 grand down here on a good day. It would only fetch 20 grand if completely restored and in primo conditon and the buyer was a little on the newbie side. That is probably what the Marina guy was getting at. And I bet at the end of all this the total will be about 5 grand said and done. More if you pay someone else at yard prices to do all the work.


----------



## chucklesR

Probably too late, but I could have towed you out, you could have raised the main, then called for a tow to Haven


----------



## jimgo

I finally got an estimate from the local marina. I'd have to sit in a slip for nearly a month before they can pull her so the shaft and prop could be inspected (and of course, pay $400 while I sit there). Then it's almost $500 to pull and block the boat, plus $235 per month while she's on land. Then there are the repair costs - their estimate adds up to about $9,000, not including the storage, hauling, and blocking fees.


----------



## chucklesR

Shop around, except for the needed bits, and storage stuff most of the 'work' is wrench turning level. 
Fine adjustments you pay for, grease monkey level you grunt it out.


----------



## jimgo

That's pretty much were I'm netting out too, Chuck.


----------



## Minnewaska

I have never been charged to be on the hard awaiting or having work being done.


----------



## Capt.aaron

Minnewaska said:


> I have never been charged to be on the hard awaiting or having work being done.


Wow, where do you haul. Generaly they throw in 2 day's free 'round here. the day you haul and the day splash.


----------



## jimgo

From the tone of the E-mail, it seems to me that he thinks the boat is a POS and he doesn't want to work on it.

I called the insurance company and filed a claim. This should be fun. For those who don't know, I bought my last boat, a Catalina 25, in October of 2011. We sailed until late November, and had a blast. I spent from February through April cleaning, upgrading, refinishing, recovering cushions, etc. for the boat, and was very proud of her when she launched last Spring. Engine issues kept us from enjoying the boat until mid-season last year, but toward the end of the season, we started to get the hang of it and really enjoyed the boat. My plan was to keep her in the water until around Thanksgiving, then have her hauled. A work trip caused me to travel out of the country for two weeks in early October, but I was looking forward to sailing when I got home. Shortly after I arrived home, and almost a year to the day after we took ownership of her, Hurricane Sandy struck. I was able to get to the dock and adjust the lines and get almost everything of value off, which was fortunate. There was a steel tugboat next to us, and she sank. In so doing, she listed into our slip, and apparently our boat bashed against the tug for the better part of the second half of the storm, plus the nor-easter that followed (couldn't get into that area, or onto the docks, in the interim). The boat was underinsured (we got it for a song and I was going to get a survey at the end of the season), so the insurance company wound up totaling it. Now here I am, less than 6 months later, with another claim. The sad part is, neither of these was my fault.


----------



## Minnewaska

Capt.aaron said:


> Wow, where do you haul. Generaly they throw in 2 day's free 'round here. the day you haul and the day splash.


I even went into the paint shop a few years ago for 6 weeks and negotiated away even the haul and relaunch, let alone paying nothing for the time on the hard. I was already on the hard elsewhere for the winter and said it was cheaper to stay there for the work. Pretty easy throw in for the yard I took her to. It doesn't really cost them anything to speak of.


----------



## Capt.aaron

I guess if the yard is doing the work, and you are playing them off each other.
I've only ever been in a DIY yard. This year in La Cieba will be the first time I've hired a yard to do anything for me besides haul and pressure wash.


----------



## ottos

Jim, I just saw the thread...sorry for your troubles. If you really want to take her to Barnegat Bay, you may want to go by truck...not get towed. I looked up an estimate for a 31 footer from MD to NJ was just under a thousand. Look under Yachtworld...Services...Transport

I have no experience using the process; maybe someone here can provide the voice of experience.


Best of luck.


----------



## chef2sail

ottos said:


> Jim, I just saw the thread...sorry for your troubles. If you really want to take her to Barnegat Bay, you may want to go by truck...not get towed. I looked up an estimate for a 31 footer from MD to NJ was just under a thousand. Look under Yachtworld...Services...Transport
> 
> I have no experience using the process; maybe someone here can provide the voice of experience.
> 
> Best of luck.


If that's true maybe a good idea. Add in the cost of hauling and blocking her once she is delivered .

Check on the place I gave you in he Sassarass. Ferry point is not working/ dealing well with you and sounds like they don't want to do the work. 8000 in repairs will get you a lot more than what you need done. A complete engine rebuild is no more than 4000 on my 3GMF Yanmar.


----------



## chrisncate

jimgo said:


> No. Are they decent?
> 
> My thinking is that, since Ferry Point isn't responding, I'm going to have to pay for towing, whether it's over to Rock Hall or up to Atlantic Marina. I haven't priced it out yet, but the cost difference between those two destinations may be quickly offset by the skill of the mechanics and the available equipment. Looking at Active Captain and reviews other places, Haven Harbour seems to have a good reputation. They also seem to have the equipment to handle my boat and engine. I can't find too much about Atlantic. Can you tell me more?


Atlantic could haul my Alberg, I don't see why it couldn't haul you out as well. As far as the work goes, if you're looking for someone to do the work, I know the guy that has a shop at Atlantic seemed knowledgeable the few times we spoke. I have no idea if he's any good, you'd have to talk to him and feel him out. They handle a lot of power boats at Atlantic, so maybe that could be an asset regarding motor work? I really don't know but they are worth talking to.

I liked Atlantic as they were willing to negotiate on slip price and were very laid back. Their prices were very reasonable.


----------



## chrisncate

Capt.aaron said:


> Is a Plath 7 b one of those winches made out of solid gold and runs on the blood of flightless dragons?


Ah, I see you've heard of it..



> The Capehorn, yes, the most impressive thing I've ever bought, well second to my wifes ring...no wait, I sold my boat once and bought it back, so after my wifes ring and the boat, the Capehorn self sterring device is the third most impressive thing I've bought......and my 1978 jeep J10m, midnight blue
> (in a full moon) pick up truck with the original AM-CB radio and Levis seat covers. those, in order are the things I've most impressed my self with.


Nice. I almost went with the Cape Horn but decided against it in the end due to it sucking up the lazzerette space with it's mechanics (I know Yves makes a model with the guts outboard, but then what's the point? Might as well get a Norvane at 2/3 the price, which is what I did). I do love that thing though, such a pretty work of art. We've talked to Yves a couple of times/years at the Boat show, it's always fun discussing A-30 stuff with the legend (Never mentioned the Norvane though, for the obvious heresy). He signed my copy of his movie.. 

So... what's you CB handle btw?  That's so FL...



> That Capehorn better thread my boat through a needle in either 30 knots or 3 of wind, up and or down it. I'm impressed with Yves, ( he actully answered the phone when I called to order) his voyage and his company service. The unit arrives the day I get off the tug next week. I have 2 weeks to install and shake down the boat and then back to sea. Worth every penny thus far.


Well, it's supposed to preform as good as it looks, so..

I'm sure it will live up to it's reputation.

Former glory:


----------



## chef2sail

For what it's worth I use Harbor Haven for all work including engine work on Haleakula. They have 6 mechanics and can handle all work on all engines. They are the primer Yanmar dealer in the. Upper Chesapeake. The have their own rigging shop, their own paint and awl grip buildings. They are the best IMHO. 

I travel across the Bay to use them. They are honest, honor their work and have a primo reputation. They also run a first class marina. If the work can be done in a slip thy don't charge you for the slip. Most of your work can be done that way with a hang for the new shaft. 

They are not cheap, but they are thorough and honest. Ask for Woody. He is the manager of the maintaince yard.

Dave


----------



## Minnewaska

Capt.aaron said:


> I've only ever been in a DIY yard. ....


Sure, all DIY yards are going to charge to haul, launch and for time on the blocks. Free only if the yard is getting the work.


----------



## Capt.aaron

chrisncate said:


> Ah, I see you've heard of it..
> 
> Nice. I almost went with the Cape Horn but decided against it in the end due to it sucking up the lazzerette space with it's mechanics (I know Yves makes a model with the guts outboard, but then what's the point? Might as well get a Norvane at 2/3 the price, which is what I did). I do love that thing though, such a pretty work of art. We've talked to Yves a couple of times/years at the Boat show, it's always fun discussing A-30 stuff with the legend (Never mentioned the Norvane though, for the obvious heresy). He signed my copy of his movie..
> 
> So... what's you CB handle btw?  That's so FL...
> 
> Well, it's supposed to preform as good as it looks, so..
> 
> I'm sure it will live up to it's reputation.
> 
> Former glory:


Former Boat, but the Glory is yours forever. Still a fan of your work. ( and your avitar thing, I get it) To stay on topic for the op, my point in even mentioning the Capehorn is, that although my old beefed up hull on it's own is mostly likely not worth what I spent on the windvane, I'll spend more than that this week on my life raft and other gear I'm buying for my next voyage, and I will most likely spend 3 times what my boat is worth on my new engine next year. All said and done, by next year I will have 20 grand in a 10 thousand dollar boat. Like I said, Mother Ocean does'nt look at receipts, she only judges the work done. So hang in there and see it through, eventually you just have to pick a boat and get down and dirty on it. The reward is worth it, not re-sale value, but in sail value.
Chrisncate my handle is Saltydog, like the drink, but all I recieve is static, I guess the 70's are really over after all.


----------



## MedSailor

I've only owned older boats (1959 and 1975) and things break that I can't afford to fix (routinely). Today I was in the yard doing yet another project that I thought was way above my skill level. Once I was pushed to really try it anyway (because of a heart-attack inducing cost quote) I found out that I could figure it out and do it. Sweat? Yeah lots. Blood, some. Tears, not yet this time, but it's happened in the past before it was all done.

Do it yourself, the pride in ownership, accomplishment, and the skills you learn are invaluable. Doing stuff like this is part of how you get that special bond between a boat and her owner. You KNOW your boat when you've worked a lot on her. You'll be able to "feel" "hear" or "smell" something not-quite-right in the future and since you will know her strengths and weaknesses you'll be able to catch it before it blows up next time.

With all due respect to the great and skilled mechanics out there, this is not brain surgery. Seriously. If you found out your wife had a brain tumor but you couldn't afford the surgery, you just could not try it yourself. Engine work is easy and accessible enough that you CAN do it yourself. You don't have to got to school for 20 years to be a mechanic, give it a try.

For inspiration, click here:
Amazing engine work in progress right here on Sailnet

MedSailor


----------



## jimgo

Wow, I had missed Por-Fin's thread. That's impressive! I wish I had those skills and tools!


----------



## Sal Paradise

At this point my thinking would be either to borrow or buy a 9.9 HP outboard on CL, and a bracket off the internet and get the boat home that way, or put some wrenches in my toolbox and sleep on the boat until I can repair her myself. 

If you buy the outboard ( say for $1000) and don't want it later you can sell it an get some or most of your $$ back. 

This yard sounds like they are out to get rich off your bad luck.


----------



## bljones

jimgo said:


> Wow, I had missed Por-Fin's thread. That's impressive! I wish I had those skills and tools!


Skill and tools are both accumulated by doing.

Something to think about, as Med pointed out: This ain't rocket surgery.
Now, that doesn't mean that there is not some precision and technique involved, but these drivetrains are a whole hell of a lot simpler than the drivetrain in the average 20 year old car.

Average yard shop rate is $90, and a good mechanic is worth at least that, 
1. when you need him, 
2. can afford him, and 
3. when your time is worth more than his time. 
But if, like most of us, your life rarely sees the intersection of more than 2 of the 3, getting your hands dirty is both necessary and satisfying.

And it takes far fewer tools and less money than you think.
4 hours of labour at $90 will buy you:
A decent quality socket set with 1/4" 3/8" and 1/2" ratchets.
A good quality torque wrench.
A breaker bar.
A pry bar or two.
A dead blow mallet.
A good set of box end wrenches, stubby and regular length
A set of good screwdrivers, that you can turn with a wrench.
A tool box to put it all in.


----------



## smurphny

A good toolbox is a necessary pc. of equipment if you plan on owning a cruising sailboat. It should have everything you need to do major repair to motor, rigging, hull, and anything else that will break at the most inopportune time. The thing that will break will be that one thing you don't have the tool to fix (corollary to Murphy's Law. You also need factory maintenance manuals that give detailed instructions on how to fix stuff. $100 spent on a factory engine manual will pay for itself many times over. Don't want to throw this thread off the track but there must be threads about tools to have on a sailboat.


----------



## MedSailor

smurphny said:


> A good toolbox is a necessary pc. of equipment if you plan on owning a cruising sailboat. .... Don't want to throw this thread off the track *but there must be threads about tools to have on a sailboat.*


Why yes, there are. 

Favorite boat tools thread

How to store tools on a sailboat

I'd also like to add, that I really agree with Bljones on this thread. Listen to his posts. I also think that buying/borrowing an outboard and making a quick bracket to get the boat home is a good idea. You can likely sell a craigslist engine for the same as you bought it. Sometimes more if you find a deal.

MedSailor


----------



## chrisncate

Capt.aaron said:


> Former Boat, but the Glory is yours forever. Still a fan of your work. ( and your avitar thing, I get it) To stay on topic for the op, my point in even mentioning the Capehorn is, that although my old beefed up hull on it's own is mostly likely not worth what I spent on the windvane, I'll spend more than that this week on my life raft and other gear I'm buying for my next voyage, and I will most likely spend 3 times what my boat is worth on my new engine next year. All said and done, by next year I will have 20 grand in a 10 thousand dollar boat. Like I said, Mother Ocean does'nt look at receipts, she only judges the work done. So hang in there and see it through, eventually you just have to pick a boat and get down and dirty on it. The reward is worth it, not re-sale value, but in sail value.
> Chrisncate my handle is Saltydog, like the drink, but all I recieve is static, I guess the 70's are really over after all.


I know where you're coming from, and you're right. If you're keeping the boat for sure, might as well build her to your desire (whether through sweat equity or financially, or both). It makes all the difference when you take out the notion of any future sale (anytime soon at least), and you love the boat. We loved Heron and did everything our way, and then decided to sell "our" boat that was very outside of the mainstream. My view is of course colored by our experiences doing what we did.

I would still say however, if the hull is not particularly desirable in some way (whether quality, seaworthiness based on expected future use, classic lines, whatever the case may be) , I'm not sure I'd say go ape $hit on just any hull. A big repair makes sense enough for the most part though if you love your boat and know you're keeping her.

That's a good CB handle btw. Thanks for the kudos on the work, I appreciate that


----------



## Capt.aaron

Well, yeah, you can't polish a terd, make a silk purse out of a sow's ear etc. You'd just be whistl'n dixie if the boat is crap. I don't know anything about Allmands. I can't even remember what eng. it is we are talking about. But the op bought it. likes it. I bet if he raises the sail, push and pulls on the tiller and gets side way's to the wind he'll start sailing around, which is what he's trying to do. I'd take all the crap off it that doesn't work and just sail it around and have fun. Fix up the little eng. put the wife and the wine on it and get out there. Chrisncate went ape sh!t on their boat, she's a friken priceless piece of art in my book. I don't have that kind of restoration skill. Jimgo's got some work ahead, he's all ready had some hard lessons and more to come. It gets easier man, hang in there.
Saltydog out.


----------



## chrisncate

I should add to Jimgo - we found it really fun and rewarding to do the work ourselves. It was fun to learn to do everything as we went. It's not for everyone, but it can be surprising to see what you can get done. I look forward to hearing how it goes as it unfolds for you.

I may have missed it in the thread: What's up with Ferry Point? Have you considered there?


----------



## jimgo

The boat was towed yesterday from Chuck's slip over to Haven Harbour. She's hiding out there until my insurance can get over there to look for signs of an accident. If they find some (and I suspect they may), then we'll see what they can work out.

If there isn't any sign of an accident, then I'll have to figure out how to go. I've found another Allmand owner who has offered me his transmission and drivetrain in exchange for taking him out sailing (his boat was totaled in Sandy). I'll be happy to take him out sailing anway (good to get someone with knowledge of the boat's ability out with me), but that may be an option. I'm also interested to see what the marina says is wrong.

I wasn't able to stay aboard very long - the tow took about 3 hours, and ate into most of the usable part of my day. However, I was able to take a bunch of pictures of the engine and to look for some of the things that the local marina said were wrong, and I'm just not seeing it. For example, I know the hoses SHOULD be replaced, so I know how old they are, their condition, etc. But in looking very carefully at most of them, I don't see any that are anywhere near as bad as was suggested. Similarly, I don't see the prop shaft cutting into the hull. Maybe I'm not looking in the right places for these, but nothing jumped out at me.

I had the impression that they really didn't want to do the work, and after having spent some time double-checking their suggestions, I'm even happier to not be having them do the work.

By contrast, Haven Harbor has been VERY gracious, and a nice place to deal with so far. My opinion may change, but for now I'm much more comfortable there.


----------



## jimgo

ChrisNCate, I'm very much a DIY person for a lot of things. I re-rigged my old boat, including splicing everything myself. I also sewed new covers for the salon, touched up the stitching on the sails, buffed out the hull, refinished all the wood, rewired some of her stuff, etc. But I had a bad experience with DIY'ing repairs on the outboard and wound up having to buy a new engine. So, at this point I'm gun shy when it comes to something mechanical, and especially when it's the primary propulsion for the boat I'll have my family in. If it's TOO crazy expensive, I may HAVE to DIY. But the time it will take, and the fact that I'm eating into my season, weighs heavily on the decisions here.


----------



## MedSailor

jimgo said:


> I've found another Allmand owner who has offered me his transmission and drivetrain in exchange for taking him out sailing (his boat was totaled in Sandy).


WOW that is GREAT NEWS!!!  That means another motor and tranny and you can keep yours for spares (or pull off all the good bits and just keep them).

Don't sweat the "bad hoses" thing. That's an opinion and if they aren't leaking they don't NEED to be replaced just yet. Get a second opinion from someone who won't be making money off of you.

I was told that my transmission was toast once. I was told that I "might" be able to motor it the 14 hrs or so to Seattle but I had better get towing insurance for the trip. That was 5 years and a LOT of motoring ago.... Opinions on when stuff "should" be replaced are just that. When stuff breaks, it needs to be replaced. Forecasting when something will break is trying to tell the future.

I'm not sure I buy the motor mounts or stuffing box issues either. Is the stuffing box leaking now? No? Then it's probably still good. If not, it's only $5-700 to have it torn out and replaced with a drip-less unit.

Sounds to me like things are looking up! 

MedSailor

PS I'm not against preventative maintenance, but I am trying to draw a distinction between preventive maintenance and what MUST be done NOW.


----------



## jimgo

Med, thank you that's exactly what I was trying to say. I'm not against preventative maintenance, but not NOW. Now, I need to get the boat home. THEN I can do the other stuff.

To the questions about the stuffing box area, here are two pictures:


















Like I said, maybe I'm missing something. By the way, yes, I do see the rusted hose clamps, and I do know they need to be replaced.


----------



## jimgo

OK, one last round of questions. The boat slipped off the lift when they were hauling her for the inspection. The haul happened after the surveyor looked over the engine. Could a drop like this have done damage to the engine? At the time, my impression was that it wasn't any worse than what you could expect to see sailing, but I figured it was worth asking.


----------



## Faster

Looks like you've got a bolted-in shaft log, as opposed to a FG molded-in tube, so the comment that the shaft has been cutting into the hull makes no sense. The area in your pics is not exactly pristine but not untypical either.

The travel lift hijinks are weird to see... it's like the travel lift itself let go.. if anything the boat was bow high and not likely to slip 'down'. Poor operator? The only concern I'd have about that (it was a fairly 'gently' landing) is that the aft strap ended up on the propshaft somehow. That's a big no-no.


----------



## chef2sail

I wondering about the same thing Faster is. When the sling slipped was te boat supported by the slings or the water. Did you see it happen? It looks like the bow lowered and th sling pulled upward on th shaft as it slid down the hull aft ward. That cpud defiant
Ey put pressure on you prop therefore tranny.

Again I only use Harbor Haven. They aren't cheep, but thy are knowledgable and honest . Woody is a good man too. The mechanics are factory trained and attend classes often. Any job they have done on my boat. thy have on top notch,.

4 years ago new injectors and a minor rebuild including valves.
Last year new prop shaft, coupling, dripless seal, cutlass bearing and engine mounts.

Dave.


----------



## MedSailor

jimgo said:


> OK, one last round of questions. The boat slipped off the lift when they were hauling her for the inspection. The haul happened after the surveyor looked over the engine. * Could a drop like this have done damage to the engine? *


*YES!*

When the front sling let go, what happened? The entire weight of the boat (and now forward motion) was stopped by the aft sling. What exactly stopped the boat from slipping forward and off of the aft sling? I'd say, judging by the placement of the aft sling, the prop or rudder stopped the boat from slipping forward and getting underway.

The entire weight of the boat was suddenly pulling aft on the prop and prop-shaft. That could have destroyed a transmission. Good job you took a video (I always do too).

This is another reason why I like to use yards that use a "Sea-Lift" instead of a "Travel-Lift". I watched teenage yard-monkeys try FIVE times to raise my parents boat using a travel-lift and almost drop it. Dropping a boat is almost impossible to do with a sea lift.

BTW your hoses and log look fine.

MedSailor


----------



## jimgo

I was there (I shot the video). As I recall, the aft lifting strap didn't move, but I was near the bow and that's where my attention was focused (that part had just let go!). Here's what that looked like when the boat was in the sling:










Here's what the keel looks like:


----------



## jimgo

Here's a brighter version of the aft sling placement picture:


----------



## chef2sail

That shaft is long out of the boat . I'll bet the sling pulled up on it torquing the coupling connection to he tranny. Good job with the video.

I don't like the way the strut looks either unless that's just growth.


----------



## jimgo

I shot the video because I thought my kids would enjoy seeing our boat fly. Never thought it would help for something like this.

Dave, I think that's mostly growth on the strut (if we're looking at the same thing, the support for the prop shaft that houses the cutlas bearing).


----------



## Minnewaska

For pete's sakes, dropping the boat would make me vomit. It does look like either the life failed or the operator did something wrong. It didn't seem like the sling slipped to do that. If they pulled it back up immediately following, my nickle is on operator error. 

That vid may really come in handy, if your upcoming inspection draws any connection.


----------



## MedSailor

Seeing that they placed the sling under the shaft, and forward of the strut, it looks like the strut itself would have stopped forward motion. That would be less likely to cause transmission damage than what I was imagining. 

MedSailor


----------



## jimgo

In looking at the video, it doesn't appear that the aft lifting strap moves all that much during the fall. Now, whether it was properly located is another story (it may, for example have been across/under the propellor shaft).


----------



## Faster

Your two shots of the aft strap are a bit inconclusive.. looks to me that if the strap is on the shaft it is barely so, right at the exit point. I think the front strap was released during the 'drop'.. so operator error seems likely.

Closer photos of the suspect areas/alleged damage would be good!


----------



## jimgo

Faster, I wish I could give you more pictures; that's all I have. Its funny, because I feel like I take WAY too many pictures most of the time. Then I get into situations like this, and think I don't take nearly enough!

The surveyor for the insurance company called me yesterday. They want the marina to disassemble the engine to see if there is anything else going on, and to give their expert opinion of what happened. If no accident has happened, I'll have to eat those costs, which I'm not thrilled about, but it is the most fair way to have the problem diagnosed. The surveyor spoke highly of Haven Harbor, which made me feel good, too. Hopefully the marina will be able to get to the engine soon; I know they are backed up with Spring conditioning work. I'll let you know what happens!


----------



## chucklesR

Thanks for keeping us all in the loop Jim. 
At the very least this is making all of us (or at least me) cast a hairy eye on how insurance works. 

I would think that since you've made a claim, and have a valid reason to believe it was accidental (no long term signs of rubbing etc) they would front the money to prove otherwise or just pay up. 
That's like saying if I hit a log I have to show the log and prove I hit it.

I'd have a hard time swallowing the entire cost of the yard doing the engine pull - that is something you could do your self; maybe you can negotiate that down.

Sad news is if it's proven to be an 'accident' that caused the transmission to blow they are still likely to call it a total.


----------



## Minnewaska

I guess I'm missing what is covered here. If the skipper caused the damage, is it insured? Does it have to be an event that was beyond anyone's control. Confusing.

Anyway, did you use a broker/agent or buy direct from an insurance company? These are circumstances where having a broker/agent can really pay off. The technically represent the insurance company, but have a higher vested interest in keeping you as a client.


----------



## sony2000

Jimgo, let the insurance investigate, and if they declare the boat a total loss along with an accompaning cashiers check for its value, all is not lost. I believe most insurance companies must give the insurer, the first chance to buy the scrapped boat, before it is offered to any other buyers.
This probably is why not many of Sandy's wrecks, have ended up on the open market.


----------



## jimgo

Minne,
If the damage was as a result of an accident, regardless of who was at the helm, my insurance will cover the repairs (or total the boat) because I have comprehensive coverage in addition to collision coverage. If there was an accident while the captain was at the helm, the insurance company may be able to go after him/his insurance for subrogation. My policy, and this may vary from insurer to insurer, says that if the damage was due to improperly/poorly maintained equipment, rather than a true "accident", then that won't be covered by my insurance.

What gets hairy here is that they wrote the policy and relied on a survey that said that the boat was in generally servicable condition. Aside from the "sea trial" when we moved the boat (in heavy headwinds) from the slip to the travellift, I have yet to be aboard the boat when she was away from the dock, and I have yet to take control of the boat in any way. She was moved by the surveyor to the lift and then blocked because I wanted the bottom painted. The marina moved her back to the slip. The captain moved her from Deltaville to Pasadena, and TowBoatUS moved her from Pasadena to Rock Hall.

I got my insurance through an agent. I'm waiting to see how things go, and may enlist their aid - we have two cars, three boats, and a home all insured through them.

Chuck, apparently many insured have "stuck" the insurance company with the costs associated with this kind of work. I had to sign something saying that I understood that if there wasn't an accident, they weren't responsible for the costs (which is consistent with my insurance policy).


----------



## Alex W

What happens if the accident was during the survey, before you owned the boat? Isn't that the most likely theorized scenario based on your video?


----------



## jimgo

My theory is a submerged object near the Magothy. I think a severe misalignment/damage during the survey would have shown itself after the first day of motoring. But that's just my unprofessional guess.


----------



## chucklesR

jimgo said:


> My theory is a submerged object near the Magothy. I think a severe misalignment/damage during the survey would have shown itself after the first day of motoring. But that's just my unprofessional guess.


Agree, he had two days in heavy wind before it died all of a sudden.


----------



## sony2000

One theory: We all saw the boat slip in its straps. Any weight on the driveshaft is enough to upset ***something***. Then the boat does two days of heavy motoring, with possibly a vibration that is ignored by the crew, because they are paid for the trip from A to B, or they don't get paid.
Thats all it took, to make everything in the engine room to let go.


----------



## JimMcGee

Jim,
At this point we can all speculate to death. Best to wait and see what the adjuster says, then you can plan how to move forward.

Trust me, everyone here feels for you. Watching that video was a gut punch. I can only imagine what it was like to be there.

Best of luck,
Jim


----------



## jimgo

Agreed, Jim. And thanks to everyone for the help and support!!!


----------



## Minnewaska

jimgo said:


> .....I'm waiting to see how things go, and may enlist their aid - we have two cars, three boats, and a home all insured through them......


That could be way too late. If they received compensation for placing your coverage, they should be helping you with the claims process. Most will be very beneficial. If they aren't, then bring all your business elsewhere.

Seriously, get them on your side. They have much more weight with the insurance companies than you do. You represent one premium. The insurance agent can send thousands of customers to them, or take them away.


----------



## jimgo

Well, I finally received the estimate from Haven Harbour. They did it in stages, and tried to do a "worst case" estimate for what might be wrong. They said their goal was to come in under that value, if they can. The estimate doesn't include the cost of repairing the prop or prop shaft; that they won't know about until after the boat is out of the water. It's still a painful amount of money, but still thousands less than the marina in Pasadena.


----------



## deniseO30

But what is the actual problem? The Hurth Jim? Or the flex plate? Both are pretty low tech R & R jobs. I helped a friend a few yrs ago. It took about 6 hrs maybe to pull his hurth box and flex plate which was all broken. He put the new flex plate in in less then 3 hrs too!


----------



## jimgo

Donna,
So far, they don't know. The insurance company wanted two things: 1) an estimate to diagnose the cause of the problem, and 2) a "worst case" estimate of what it would take to fix the problem. The marina isn't sure yet whether the transmission is shot or not; if it isn't, a good chunk of the cost goes away. Similarly, if pulling the engine out and replacing the damping plate is easier than they expect, then the cost comes down. 

The complicating factor here is the way the engine compartment is laid out. The engine needs to be slid forward, into the cabin, to allow access to the bell housing. It could MAYBE be done without sliding the engine forward, but the lost productivity time spent hunched over the engine, hunting for tools, etc., is probably going to exceed the cost of moving the engine. If I DIMS, I don't see me being able to move the engine out, so I'll have to pay them to do that. I know I want them to put the engine back (so it is properly aligned). So, in the end, I don't know that I'd save a whole lot in labor charges. If you are right, and it's only 9-10 hours, then that will bring the bill down by about $1400, which would be fantastic.


----------



## jimgo

Any idea what a new 20-25HP would cost?


----------



## chef2sail

*new engine and tranny*

HH is the Chessie Yanmar dealer

10,000 to 12,000 installed


----------



## chucklesR

Okay, why all of a sudden are you looking at new engines Jim?

I'm hoping for good news on the cause of the problems. I'm sure you are too.


----------



## jimgo

Thanks Chuck!

I'm just looking at all my options. I don't really expect that a new engine will be in the cards, or necessary. The estimate includes a decent amount of labor hours, and I was just wondering if, in the end, it would be more cost-effective or efficient to go with a new engine since all the marina would be doing is pulling the old, and dropping in a new.


----------



## deniseO30

Sounds like your boat is surrounded by thinkers and very few "doers" LOL It's not rocket science and they are making it out to be.


----------



## jimgo

LOL...very true.

If the boat were at my "home" marina, I'd be tempted to try to do the repairs myself. But at this point, I really just want the boat fixed.


----------



## MarioG

Jim I'm in the area and not working at the moment so let me know if there is anything I can help you with.


----------



## jimgo

Thanks Mario!


----------



## chef2sail

jimgo said:


> Thanks Chuck!
> 
> I'm just looking at all my options. I don't really expect that a new engine will be in the cards, or necessary. The estimate includes a decent amount of labor hours, and I was just wondering if, in the end, it would be more cost-effective or efficient to go with a new engine since all the marina would be doing is pulling the old, and dropping in a new.


Wish it were that easy. You still have to rebed, align etc. The engine costs about $9000 the rest is in labor costs. T37chef just did a new Beta engine, same HP. He can speak to the total costs better than I can.

Dave


----------



## jimgo

Well, that does make my decisions will be easier. That's more than I was hoping.


----------



## Shinook

jimgo said:


> Well, that does make my decisions will be easier. That's more than I was hoping.


You could always find a used motor as well. It doesn't have to be new.


----------



## jimgo

Fairpoint, except that a used engine puts me right back in the same basic position, not knowing exactly how good it is. That was the advantage of the new engine, at least I would have a warranty and know its general condition.


----------



## deniseO30

Betting still it's the flex plate. These "mechanics" are just weaving a web of scare tactics around the issue Jim. Someone needs to be there when this investigating starts. By the way the 5416, is a sleeved cylinder engine and totally rebuildable. A new engine won't cover any labor costs most likely


----------



## jimgo

Denise, I agree, I think its the damping plate. Haven Harbour has said that they will test the transmission before they make a decision as to its condition. I hope that it won't be in bad shape, but who knows. Still a lot up in the air.

I have a call in to the insurance company about next steps. I'll be calling my agent tomorrow (still have 2 other boats to be insured, and may look into taking my business elsewhere depending on how this goes) and then calling the insurance company's rep again. Hopefully we'll get the work kicked off this week.


----------



## MedSailor

I call ignorance. 

What's a dampening plate? Do all transmission have them or are they an extra? I recall recently reading the blog of S/V Wondertime and their dampener plate $hit the bed on the much feared trip from Fiji to NZ. If I recall it sounded like an "added extra" feature.

MedSailor


----------



## edguy3

There have got to be a lot of salvage motors in our area now. You just need to figure out how to get rid of that fibreglass wrapper that they have. ;-) 

I suspect my former boat is going to go for a little more than the recently rebuilt transmission cost.

/ed


----------



## Harborless

Stay strong buddy. I have been at the lowest of lows before, and posted on here about it. Take a few days, re-evaluate your plans, and open up the can of elbow grease. On the bright side you have a great boat.


----------



## deniseO30

RE; Foley Engines
"Damper plates lead a tough life

They work in the dark, are often soaked in salt water, and are never checked, let alone maintained. They are the marine equivalent of a mushroom! The damper plate is bolted to the flywheel with a half dozen or so small metric allen bolts. Into this clutch like plate slides the splined input shaft of the Hurth or Borgwarner gear. The damper plate acts as coupler between the engine and the transmission and all torque is transmitted through it.
Noisy damper plate

Sometimes these hard working clutches rebel and their springs loosen up and even fall out. Or one or more of the allen bolts back out and the plate become loose and moves around. Symptoms of this will be a rattling sound from the bellhousing area when in neutral. Engaging gear is often difficult and the Hurth gear is hard to shift. Often loose or missing springs is the only problem. People often think that they need a new transmission when all they need is to replace the damper plate.
What to look for

If you suspect that your damper plate springs are loose and rattling around and that you have damper plate problems here is what to look for. First check your linkage to ensure that everything is tight and working properly. Then check that the bolts holding the damper plate in place are present and installed correctly. Verify that the Hurth or Borgwarner gear is not mis-aligned. Use a dial indicator to check for this. Finally, if the damper plate is worn and/or springs are missing, check to see that your Hurth or Borgwarner gear's front bearing hasn't failed. Worn damper plates can often cause the transmissions' input shaft to wear and result in front bearing 
failure."

What they look like. It's the springs that rattle


----------



## jimgo

Thanks Denise. We found pieces of the springs inside the starter when we pulled it. Neither the surveyor nor the captain said they heard anything that sounded like a loose spring inside the engine prior to the failure (I'm both new to diesel engines and hearing impaired, so you don't want to trust my ears in this case). That's part of what makes me think it wasn't just poor maintenance, but rather an accident that caused the failure.

To the DIY question, putting aside the time issue (we have lots going on lately), I don't have a dial guage, and wouldn't know what to look for if I were to rebuild this myself. I'm not set up for dragging the engine back, either, and don't relish the thought of trying to do all of this hunched over the engine. Plus, I'm not set up to, and wouldn't know how to, handle the alignment once everything was back together. It seems to me that I need the marina/another experienced mechanic to do that stuff, and that's a good chunk of the cost of the repairs. Yes, I'll still save money if I do some of this myself, but that's going to slow things down, and I'm not sure I'll save all that much, either.


----------



## arf145

Jim,

I'm just now going through this thread and I wanted to say how sorry I am that you got hit by the engine trouble before you got to the fun part of having the new boat. I really hope this works out for you.


----------



## jimgo

I spoke with my insurance company on Monday, and we're all set. They gave Haven Harbour the green light to haul the boat, and HH said that she's on the schedule for later today or early tomorrow. Once she's hauled, we'll get a sense for what's wrong with her and develop a plan.

Thank you all VERY much for your support and feedback. It may not always sound like it, but I do apreciate the different perspectives people provide.


----------



## SoOkay

Hang in there man. I know how you feel. If you need a boat to go sailing in while yours is fixed, drive over to Sandy Hook and we'll go sailing 

btw if you want a surveyor recommendation I've had great experiences with one particular person. Extreemly detailed.


----------



## jimgo

Thanks! Be careful, I may take you up on the offer!


----------



## MedSailor

Hang in there. I just got my boat in the water after major (medium?) surgery. It's soooo nice to have her back and better than new. 

Soon enough I hope for you!

MedSailor


----------



## jimgo

Med, it's funny, when I talked to the marina yesterday, I said to the guy "I never expected to be excited that my boat would be taken OUT of the water in May".

Glad you're back in the water; hopefully you'll be out enjoying a wonderful sumer!


----------



## deniseO30

Jim you jinxed me! My trans won't go into fwd by turning the output end. (cable off) ARRRG. going to try starting the engine see it if goes in gear that way. need water for the cutless and my pss seal when it starts. (shes on the hard yet)


----------



## jimgo

Oh no!!!

Have you checked the fluid level in the transmission? Will the transmission turn backward? Will it spin in neutral or is it bound up?


----------



## deniseO30

fluid is good. it spins. goes in Rev. If I remember right it was always free spinning when in fwd and engine was off. rebuild parts are just under $300, I've help if I have to take it out. just won't be sailing this season!


----------



## jimgo

OK, so at least it spins and you know it isn't jammed; that's a good start. So spinning the engine output side and holding the lever in place doesn't let you go into forward, but it does let you go into reverse? That's strange.

Have you rebuilt your transmission before? I read that for the Hurth/ZF transmissions, it isn't worth the trouble. You'll wind up replacing the transmission in a few years anyway.


----------



## jimgo

BTW, I'm not THAT far from you. If/when you decide to pull the transmission, let me know. If I'm free I'll come lend a hand. I'm not incredibly strong, nor am I all that mechanically inclined, but I can follow directions.


----------



## deniseO30

Jim thank you for the offer to help! I'll let you know what an when if it's going to happen. I've not done such a rebuild, but the guys in my club have pulled them and did flex plate and and dipstick repairs. My research is looking at the ZF6 which is the new version of the old and they have not really changed much at all. They are supposed to be pretty easy to rebuild as far as complicated goes. I just don't know what to do since I can't find 12-1800 for a new or rebuilt one. We have a boom truck, here too.


----------



## chucklesR

Denise, I'm assuming you have directly observed that the cable does push the lever into forward (all the way) and have diagnosed the problem as internal to the transmission?
The lever operates a hydraulic valve inside the transmission - where rebuild gets expensive.
The valve works or you would not get reverse.

Occam's razor (simplest solution) says that it worked last year, they only thing that has changed is time. Time loosens cable connections and allows them to slip which reduces throw.

Best check is to remove the cable and manually shift gears.


----------



## deniseO30

Chuck, yes had the cable off. going to try running the engine today The throw is pretty long on the trans lever. Hydraulic valve? Looks like a fork to me when I looked at the internal diagram. But I'm not one to argue  It's a HBW 50 Chuck.


----------



## miatapaul

deniseO30 said:


> fluid is good. it spins. goes in Rev. If I remember right it was always free spinning when in fwd and engine was off. rebuild parts are just under $300, I've help if I have to take it out. just won't be sailing this season!


Oh I hope you aren't out all season. Not a fun job, but by all accounts it does not look to be that hard. You seem very handy, but you might be able to trade some refrigeration work for some transmission work! (I typed out tranny work, but it did not look right! )


----------



## jimgo

Denise, let us know how it goes!


----------



## chucklesR

deniseO30 said:


> Chuck, yes had the cable off. going to try running the engine today The throw is pretty long on the trans lever. Hydraulic valve? Looks like a fork to me when I looked at the internal diagram. But I'm not one to argue  It's a HBW 50 Chuck.


Got that one all wrong didn't I? Missed the 'cable off' and the HBW50. My Hurth was as I described, had it replaced under warranty because the internal valve stuck.


----------



## JimMcGee

Denise, best of luck. I think the stars are misaligned. 

I've been doing the cutlass bearing from hell the past couple of weekends (finally done) and I still have to drop my mast and do the hull before I go in.

My buddy found major dampness in the deck around his mast. He cut out the deck and core and dried it out but has been desperate to find a fiberglass guy after Sandy. Finally got a guy started on it this week, but he's normally in in March.

A third friend just got his boat in the water and then his job sent him to Canada for the rest of the summer 

I think it all started with Jimgo's boat. Everybody grab the torches and pitchforks and we'll head for his house to break the spell !!! 

:laugher :laugher :laugher


----------



## jimgo

Jim,
As long as you're assembling a work crew, would you head to Rock Hall? I bet we could get the boat repaired in no time, thereby vanquishing all of the demons that have beset our boats!


----------



## deniseO30

Thanks gentlemen! 

I'm for the first time getting things done that should have been done 2 years ago.  

I picked up this "green" paint remover from WM tried it, didn't work;  left it over night on "test" spots of cetol and varnish that have been there for oh... a few days and some over 4 years. It works! my O30 has a file like texture for nonskid. so it's very hard to clean. So the decks are going to start looking pretty good and with all the newly finished teak....

And the galley nearly done with new norcold in the Ice box... and the hull clean... still not sure about %$&@!$ compound and wax.. It's hard work! 

Now the VHF antenna is leaning heavily in the slightest breeze. and the transmission.... 

Well time for lunch! 

Will report back!


----------



## JimMcGee

jimgo said:


> Jim,
> As long as you're assembling a work crew, would you head to Rock Hall? I bet we could get the boat repaired in no time, thereby vanquishing all of the demons that have beset our boats!


Ahh, but you don't know my friends. They'd substitute Pusser's for pitchforks and the work crew would turn into a drinking crew.

You can guess how much we'd get done! :laugher

BTW, any updates from Haven Harbor on your boat?


----------



## jimgo

Jim, I'm not a big drinker (Diet Coke being my preferred drink), but at this stage some Pusser's might just be welcomed.

No updates this week. Last time I spoke with them was last Thursday, when Mark told me that my boat probably wouldn't be pulled until Monday. I'm anxious to get everything started, but at the same time I don't want to be too big of a pest (all in all, they've still been very nice, and I don't want to change that, especially if I'm going to be paying out of pocket for the repairs). Yesterday I put together some pictures of the prop, cutlass bearing, hull, engine, and prop shaft, along with the videos of the boat slipping from the slings, and E-mailed a link to that collection to the folks at Haven Harbor. I haven't received a reply yet. If I don't hear from them by tomorrow afternoon, I'll give them a call. My plan is to head down there on Sunday to do some work on, and generally inspect, the boat, and I'd like to know whether I'll be working on land or with the boat in the water.

Denise, the green stripper did a good job with Cetol and paint on your non-skid? Did it generally get the non-skid cleaner, too? I have sandpaper-like non-skid, not the molded-in stuff, so mine is easier to clean, but it still would be good to know.


----------



## jimgo

Haven Harbour pulled the boat earlier this week. The prop and prop shaft look fine; lots of little barnicles, but otherwise everything looks fine. That means that there probably isn't an insurance claim. I've given them the OK to proceed with opening the engine to inspect/remove/replace the damping plate, and checking the transmission. I'm still keeping my fingers crossed that the transmission is OK, but something tells me I'm not going to have that kind of luck.


----------



## deniseO30

Jim, one of the good things about flex plates is the ease of which they fail. Kind of like the last line of defense for a transmission input shaft. If it were a rigid connection the transmissions would not last long at all this seems to be true of most any kind of power equipment. Me thinks the sailing gods will be with you!


----------



## jimgo

I was down at Haven Harbour yesterday for a few hours, and managed to catch the guy who has been overseeing the "work" on my boat. Now that she's out of the water, and now that most of their customers' boats are in the water, they hope to start the repairs soon. This coming weekend isn't really an option for me (too much going on), but I really hope that the first weekend in June we'll be able to take the boat for a ride, even if it means having to drive to Maryland instead of New Jersey to do it.

I managed to create a pattern for the "shelf" that had rotted through, create a pattern for the bimini (that should be interesting), install a solar fan, and start organizing and cleaning up the cabin some. It's still very much a work in progress, and I need to install the second fan to get better air flow in there, but at least I felt like I accomplished something. Last night, I tore apart the old sail cover so I could use that as a pattern for a new one; I hope to start on that tonight, then move on to the bimini.


----------



## deniseO30

All good Jim but where are the photos?


----------



## jimgo

LOL...no photos this trip. Or at least, none of my boat. Lots of biminis on other boats, but none of my boat.


----------



## deniseO30

Hey.. the sailing gods must be smiling on me! 

The trans goes into fwd and rev very well, in fact; it's even better or seems to be. NO RATTLE! What I did was move the cable down on the 2nd hole of the shift lever on the trans. that actually makes the distance traveled by the cable longer. So.... with blessings from the sailing gods We will be good to go this season! 

Hoping you get good news soon Jim!


----------



## jimgo

Still waiting on news. I called them on Friday, and they didn't return my call, which suggests to me that they haven't done anything leading into this long weekend. My parents are in town for their twice a year trip to this area (the other being in December!), and I had REALLY hoped that the boat would be in our marina in NJ this coming weekend, but it doesn't look like that is going to happen. I'm still holding out hope that she'll be in the water by this coming weekend so we can all go for our first official outing, but something tells me that I shouldn't hold my breath.

I've been busy this week. I took apart the old sail cover and used that as a pattern for a new one. The new one wound up about 2" shorter than the original, but the original was a little over-sized anyway, so hopefully it will be OK. Otherwise I'll be adding a collar!  I still need to add the twist-locks to it, but hopefully that will be a straightforward process. With any luck, I'll finish that tomorrow, and then be able to take it with me on Saturday when I go visit the boat. This weekend didn't have a lot of productivity from me - today was my youngest son's 5th birthday, so we were busy planning, prepping for, and hosting a small party for his grandparents today. I'm going to be traveling part of this week, too, so I probably won't make too much more progress until I come home.


----------



## deniseO30

I want to try building a stackpack cover Jim. Sorry your not getting any word about your boat, I'm still hoping the sailing gods are smiling on you!


----------



## rockDAWG

jimgo said:


> From the tone of the E-mail, it seems to me that he thinks the boat is a POS and he doesn't want to work on it.
> 
> I called the insurance company and filed a claim. This should be fun. For those who don't know, I bought my last boat, a Catalina 25, in October of 2011. We sailed until late November, and had a blast. I spent from February through April cleaning, upgrading, refinishing, recovering cushions, etc. for the boat, and was very proud of her when she launched last Spring. Engine issues kept us from enjoying the boat until mid-season last year, but toward the end of the season, we started to get the hang of it and really enjoyed the boat. My plan was to keep her in the water until around Thanksgiving, then have her hauled. A work trip caused me to travel out of the country for two weeks in early October, but I was looking forward to sailing when I got home. Shortly after I arrived home, and almost a year to the day after we took ownership of her, Hurricane Sandy struck. I was able to get to the dock and adjust the lines and get almost everything of value off, which was fortunate. There was a steel tugboat next to us, and she sank. In so doing, she listed into our slip, and apparently our boat bashed against the tug for the better part of the second half of the storm, plus the nor-easter that followed (couldn't get into that area, or onto the docks, in the interim). The boat was underinsured (we got it for a song and I was going to get a survey at the end of the season), so the insurance company wound up totaling it. Now here I am, less than 6 months later, with another claim. The sad part is, neither of these was my fault.


Just hang in there, Jim. Sun will shine again, the ocean await for you to enjoy. There is always a happy ending.


----------



## jimgo

Denise,
I made mine using sunbrella, and it came out decent considering how bad I am at sewing. I found some heavy-weight vinyl in the remainder bin at JoAnn's and used that along the chaff points.

RD, thanks for the encouragement!


----------



## chucklesR

deniseO30 said:


> I want to try building a stackpack cover Jim. Sorry your not getting any word about your boat, I'm still hoping the sailing gods are smiling on you!


Denise, 
Check with my wife on stackpack design and building. She's got a thread here on ours. She's pretty good at it and has a step by step guide with pics.
MMR is her 'name' here on sailnet.

Jim, 
Hang in there.


----------



## jimgo

Heard from Haven Harbour earlier this morning. They hope to be able to start work next week.


----------



## JimMcGee

Jim,
Glad to hear there's some progress on your boat. I'm sitting here waiting for the crane to take my mast down. I'll get started in a few minutes on re-installing my prop shaft while I wait. Then it's time to break out the buffer and make my shoulders ache. 

Some days I really hate boats...

Jim


----------



## jimgo

Jim,
It sounds like you and I may make it into Barnegat Bay at about the same time. Good luck!


----------



## edguy3

jimgo said:


> Jim,
> It sounds like you and I may make it into Barnegat Bay at about the same time. Good luck!


Just in time for the NJ sailnet rendezvous?


----------



## deniseO30

May the force.. err sailing gods be with you Jim!


----------



## mad_machine

edguy3 said:


> Just in time for the NJ sailnet rendezvous?


I would be up for that.. as long as it is in July after I get my boat down from NY and splashed


----------



## jimgo

A NJ rendezvous would be GREAT! I'd love the chance to meet some of you. And then there are some... (kidding)

I had a chance to get down to the boat today. They still haven't started working on it, but at this point that's not stopping me from trying to get it as ready as possible. So, I installed the new sail cover:









Against the suggestions of some, I went with Velcro for the front closure. The reason I went with it was that, toward the end of the assembly, I realized I had made a mistake. The old sail cover's two sides weren't mirror images; one side was longer than the other because there was a flap that covered the zipper. Thankfully, I had made both of my sides based on the longer side of the old cover. But that then left me with the issue of exactly how big I needed the opening to be so it could fit around the mast. With the old sail cover disassembled and the boat 2.5 hours away, that was tough to figure out. So, I decided on 2" wide Velcro because it gave me some "play", where the zipper would mean I was stuck with the size.

I was very happy with the way it fit. It could probably be 1-2" longer at the aft end, but where it ends is fine. And if I made the collar that goes around the mast a little higher, it would completely protect the exit block for the topping lift, which might be nice. But those are little details that really aren't critical at this point. I was just happy to finally have a cover that didn't have rips and tears in it.

Happy with that progress, I installed a 2nd solar vent today. Last time, I drilled the hole for the vent from the inside of the boat, and went home covered in fiberglass dust (and the accompanying itch). So, this time I decided I was going to be smart and cut the hole from the top. I drilled a pilot hole to make sure everything was in a decent location, then taped a bag to the inside of the boat to catch anything that fell. That was a waste. As I drilled from the top, the fiberglass dust got picked up by the wind and blown all over my legs, so very little went into the boat anyway! As I cut with the hole saw, the "saw" blade would bind up occasionally and I backed off and tried to just let the teeth do their thing. Well, apparently I wasn't putting equal pressure on it, and the guide bit I had in the middle was causing the plug I was cutting out to pinch the blade. Meanwhile, the repeated pinching caused me to literally fry the motor in the drill. Here I am, in a strange locale, with 2/3 of a hole in my boat, and no way to finish it. Thankfully there was an Ace Hardware nearby, and I was able to get a replacement drill and finish the job.

I also made a bimini pattern, for the second time. I realized a few days ago that with my backstay in the way, what I really needed to do was to make two patterns, one port and one starboard, and overlay them. That worked much better than the slit I cut in the original one. However, the heat today caused the heavy-gauge plastic that I bought for use as a patterning material to stretch, so now I'm a little worried. Thankfully, the lines I drew on this pattern pretty well match those on the previous one.


----------



## chef2sail

Good progress.

Let me try an describe the bimini we made and we also have a backstay it needs to go around. Cut both sides equal but you want the to add 2 inches to the fabric on each piece so it overlaps the other piece by two inches on the line from aft to fore from the back stay. When you sew hem together you will have with two different lines of stitching running fore/ after 2 inches on each side of the backstay line or the stitching line is 4 inches apart. The overlap material essentially creates two layers of fabric on the centerline that is four inches wide. This will add added strength to the bimini in it pressure point

Now go to the aft end of the joined fabric and cut through the doubled fabric from the end to the backstay and 12 more inches forward. Put a zipper here attaching to each side. You will need two pulls installed on the zipper ( always double tagged....one goes all the way to the end of the fabric forward of the back stay, the other is one the most aft end of the fabric.

When you install the bimini, the zipper will get pulled from each end by the two zipper pulls to close the bimini together to the back stay.

I suggest also you place two windows on either side towards the rear so you can see the windex on the top of the mast.

Image of the backstay is faint behind the empty radar mast when this picture was taken 4 years ago. You can make out the zipper line and the two windows in the bimini though



Better picture showing the zipper around the backstay and one of the pulls. The next year we put the windows in.




jimgo said:


> A NJ rendezvous would be GREAT! I'd love the chance to meet some of you. And then there are some... (kidding)
> 
> I had a chance to get down to the boat today. They still haven't started working on it, but at this point that's not stopping me from trying to get it as ready as possible. So, I installed the new sail cover:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Against the suggestions of some, I went with Velcro for the front closure. The reason I went with it was that, toward the end of the assembly, I realized I had made a mistake. The old sail cover's two sides weren't mirror images; one side was longer than the other because there was a flap that covered the zipper. Thankfully, I had made both of my sides based on the longer side of the old cover. But that then left me with the issue of exactly how big I needed the opening to be so it could fit around the mast. With the old sail cover disassembled and the boat 2.5 hours away, that was tough to figure out. So, I decided on 2" wide Velcro because it gave me some "play", where the zipper would mean I was stuck with the size.
> 
> I was very happy with the way it fit. It could probably be 1-2" longer at the aft end, but where it ends is fine. And if I made the collar that goes around the mast a little higher, it would completely protect the exit block for the topping lift, which might be nice. But those are little details that really aren't critical at this point. I was just happy to finally have a cover that didn't have rips and tears in it.
> 
> Happy with that progress, I installed a 2nd solar vent today. Last time, I drilled the hole for the vent from the inside of the boat, and went home covered in fiberglass dust (and the accompanying itch). So, this time I decided I was going to be smart and cut the hole from the top. I drilled a pilot hole to make sure everything was in a decent location, then taped a bag to the inside of the boat to catch anything that fell. That was a waste. As I drilled from the top, the fiberglass dust got picked up by the wind and blown all over my legs, so very little went into the boat anyway! As I cut with the hole saw, the "saw" blade would bind up occasionally and I backed off and tried to just let the teeth do their thing. Well, apparently I wasn't putting equal pressure on it, and the guide bit I had in the middle was causing the plug I was cutting out to pinch the blade. Meanwhile, the repeated pinching caused me to literally fry the motor in the drill. Here I am, in a strange locale, with 2/3 of a hole in my boat, and no way to finish it. Thankfully there was an Ace Hardware nearby, and I was able to get a replacement drill and finish the job.
> 
> I also made a bimini pattern, for the second time. I realized a few days ago that with my backstay in the way, what I really needed to do was to make two patterns, one port and one starboard, and overlay them. That worked much better than the slit I cut in the original one. However, the heat today caused the heavy-gauge plastic that I bought for use as a patterning material to stretch, so now I'm a little worried. Thankfully, the lines I drew on this pattern pretty well match those on the previous one.


----------



## jimgo

Thanks Dave! I was just sitting here trying to decide how to handle the backstay. In mine, I have a radar mount hanging from the backstay, so I'll need a wide opening. The double zipper is an interesting idea, but I was also thinking of something like a weatherstripping-lined "groove" or slot that the backstay and radar mount could move inside.

Windows were already on my to-do list. I sat in the aft areas of the cockpit and imagined where I'd want the window so I could see the top of the mast.

Do you have covers on the TOP of your windows, too? I was going to put some on the bottom, but top covers seem like a good idea, too.


----------



## chef2sail

I leave the zipper open somewhat so there is room for the backstay to move and you can also see the windex. The windows have covers underneath. You cant get to the top easily. I you leave a slot, with out the end closed it will ride sown the rubes eventually. You could also put grommets in the end and tie too. 

We used a zipper so when it rains we can close it up against the stay so the helm stays dry. My wife also mad a connector to the dodger as well as zip in side curtains ( zips under the side lips) for the bimini, which snap to the dodger side sides so we can make a full enclosure if the weather sucks.

When we travel its a lot better if its enclosed when raining so we don't get as worn out exposed. Also makes a nice little additional space when its raining at anchor.


----------



## zeehag

did the original poster ever figger out how to save his boat without paying union scale????

or did he actually part it out..or is he using it or......


----------



## MMR

We just finished putting a window in our bimini for visibility purposes. You can see the window (white square on the bimini) below:










The window material is covered by a Phifertex sun screen (velcro and twist loc fastened) that shades out 70% UV, but by luck, also provides some visibility to the mainsail. From the helm you can see this:










The lower "window" in the above pic is the connector piece between the bimini and dodger. I'm going to make a phifertex sun cover for that window also.


----------



## TakeFive

zeehag said:


> did the original poster ever figger out how to save his boat without paying union scale????
> 
> or did he actually part it out..or is he using it or......


Since he's making a sail cover and bimini for it, I have a feeling he's not planning on parting it out.


----------



## jimgo

ZeeHag, I'm the OP. I found a marina that should be "only" about 2/3 of the cost of the first marina, and may actually be even less. It's still more than I really wanted to pay, but the boat is too far away to make it practical for me to work on for a project of this magnitude.


----------



## jimgo

Mary, I really like that. I think I'll have to do something similar for the connector piece when I get that far.


----------



## MMR

jimgo said:


> Mary, I really like that. I think I'll have to do something similar for the connector piece when I get that far.


Thanks, Jim. I was pleased with how it turned out.

Hubby and I are still trying to figure out how the PO sailed the boat only looking through the dodger "window"...


----------



## chef2sail

MMR said:


> Thanks, Jim. I was pleased with how it turned out.
> 
> Hubby and I are still trying to figure out how the PO sailed the boat only looking through the dodger "window"...


Looks great Mary....probably motored the boat or didn't care how it sailed. By the great condition didn't look like it was used much


----------



## jimgo

I got a chance to visit the boat today. I took along my bimini (still a work in progress) in an effort to see if I had patterned everything properly. That was a joke - I couldn't keep the thing from sliding off! Oh well. From what I could tell, it might just fit.

Anyway, as I approached the boat, I noticed that there was a ladder against the hull, and I know I had used the swim ladder last weekend when I was there. I got aboard, and sure enough, someone from the marina had been aboard! There was a work order, and the engine compartment housing was off. Unfortunately, that's about it, but hey, it's progress! Who knows, maybe I'll have the boat back in the water before Independence Day! 

I got a late start today and couldn't stay too long, so I focused on cleaning one of the last remaining eyesores on the boat (well, the biggest of the remaining eyesores anyway...), the icebox. It had been full of mold and just really gross, and every time I was aboard I kept thinking that I needed to clean it, but other stuff got in the way. So, today I spend about 2 hours scrubbing the inside with a Magic Eraser, Simple Green, and bleach and water. I will hit it with my vinegar and tea tree oil mixture next time I'm there so my work isn't a complete waste! I was very pleased with how it looked when I was done. I wouldn't eat the ice from in there, but sealed packages (like bottled water, bottles of soda, etc.) should be good to go now.

Over my two previous visits, I installed two solar powered fans. Those REALLY seemed to help a lot. The nasty rain yesterday really soaked the marina, and there was evidence that the water got into the boat, too. On top of that, it was really humid this morning when I arrived. But this was the first time that I was aboard and wasn't assaulted with a combination of musty and tea tree oil. There was a faint smell from the Kanberra, but for the most part it smelled decent.


----------



## cave_dweller56

jimgo said:


> I'm crushed. The 1980 Allmand 31 we just purchased may be about to be parted out. The damping plate exploded in the engine when the boat was moved from VA to the Northern Chesepeake. The marina was just out to look at it, and they say that the motor mounts were shot, most of the hoses in the engine should have been replaced, the prop shaft was misaligned and cutting through the hull, and the transmission is likely shot. The cost to repair everything will likely exceed the value of the boat.
> 
> I had the boat surveyed by someone who was recommended by two different marinas in that area. I can't believe he missed some of these issues.


That sucks that you didn't have someone who could do their job right and you got a lemon


----------



## Dauntless Brent

Sorry to hear about your boat. Capt.aaron is right, the motor isn't the boat. I think that before I would scrap out a boat because of the motor, I would weigh my options. Good luck.


----------



## Faster

cave_dweller56 said:


> That sucks that you didn't have someone who could do their job right and you got a lemon





Dauntless Brent said:


> Sorry to hear about your boat. Capt.aaron is right, the motor isn't the boat. I think that before I would scrap out a boat because of the motor, I would weigh my options. Good luck.


Guys.. you need to take time to read the whole thread.. Jim's beyond 'scrapping' and repairs are imminent!


----------



## Harborless

Ive had some crushing days myself friend... I bought a REAL lemon. Shes a sturdy gal now. I think these lessons, while expensive, are priceless. So will your appreciation for your boat when you first take her out. I love and hate my boat. I love her for all the sweat blood and tears and I hate her for her indifference and bad attitude. Yet- she is mine. I built her. I know her well. I will always remember her no matter where I go or do with my life. So kudos to you for keeping optimistic and strapping on the overalls. I think once the repairs are complete you will have no further concern. Water leaks are common, but you CAN fix them. My boat just went through Andrea and came out dry as a bone in 100% Florida humidity. Used to couldn't keep a book more than a week on the boat without having to throw it out for mold. 
Just make sure you STAY ON the marina and get QOUTES not ESTIMATES for everything you are doing. They charge you wherever they can but do not be scared to be firm and direct in your questions. How much per hour, how long will it take, who is doing the work, how much experience do they have for this sort of work (faster is cheaper!!)
Anyway- I derailed quite a bit but keep up the optimism and enjoy becoming zen with your boat. Its always going to be love-hate. Yin and yang baby.


----------



## jimgo

Thanks Harborless. I've been over all of those details with them, which is good. And the work order was clear that the owner was to be kept informed of the costs - that made me feel even better!


----------



## chef2sail

jimgo said:


> Thanks Harborless. I've been over all of those details with them, which is good. And the work order was clear that the owner was to be kept informed of the costs - that made me feel even better!


First rate reputable marina. I take my boat there also for major service even though its 4 hours away by boat and across the Chesapeake Bay.


----------



## fatcatsailor

Its hard enough getting my 5000 pound boat to a dock or mooring in a good wind with my outboard.


----------



## jimgo

Well, the marina called today and said they had good news and bad news. The good news was that the engine and transmission could be easily unhooked and pulled out of the boat with their crane, which means that they can work on it in their shop, which saves on labor costs. They also were able to remove the transmission and got the bell housing off easily so they could get to the damping plate (when we spoke yesterday, nothing had been done, and I got pictures of the disassembled engine at 2:00 PM today, so that means it couldn't have taken THAT long). The bad news is that they called it a "grease ball" and said it needed to be cleaned (I knew that) and that there were some things that should be addressed in addition to the damping plate (and possibly the transmission). Those include replacing/fixing the heat exchanger, replacing some hoses, and some other "stuff" that they'd like to discuss in person. I can't get down there this weekend, but to keep the ball rolling I'm going to pay them a visit on Monday.

Here are some of the engine shots:


----------



## deniseO30

Ah Ha! They need to justify the work by looking for more to do then just the DP! But yeah in for a penny in for a pound Jim. It's good news!


----------



## jimgo

I think they will recommend replacing at least the rear seal, and I agree. Hoses are iffy for me, so I want to see what they see. Know they need to be done eventually, and in many ways it makes sense to do it now. Gotta add up the costs. At some point, we approach the cost of a new engine and transmission.


----------



## bljones

hoses you can, and should, do yourself. If your salary is less than what the yard's hourly rate is, consider doing as much yourself as possible.


----------



## jimgo

I'm typically inclined to DIY things. But the hoses will probably wind up being a small part of the total cost. I haven't asked yet, but I suspect they won't let me DIY in their shop.


----------



## sony2000

Is the oil soaked damping plate the cause of the major vibrations that started this tear down, and what lead you to believe the heat exchanger needed work or replacement? Didn't the transmssion work during the ferrying of the boat? I guess I'm asking for an update, on what you think your repair to be, will be.


----------



## jimgo

It wasn't excess vibrations, it was a lack of forward progress.


----------



## deniseO30

Well Jim, it's certainly a good time to clean, degrease and paint the engine compartment.


----------



## CalebD

The good news is that there has been some progress, or movement in the right direction: fixing your engine.
Sometimes work in boat yards can take a notoriously long time which can be quite frustrating. I hope your work continues apace.


----------



## jimgo

Denise, I headed there Monday with that on the to-do list.

Caleb, despite my whining here, that's the perspective I have been keeping.


----------



## jimgo

I went to HH today. Mark showed me the transmission and the engine. The damping plate is certainly toast. The inside of the bell housing is all scraped up, too. The heat exchanger's zinc probably had never been replaced, so the copper is starting to wear through. There are a few hoses that do need to be replaced. There is oil in the back chamber. So, the question was, how to proceed? I really don't want to invest in rebuilding the HBW5 transmission; I've read many places that the rebuilt transmissions tend to die within a few years, and the cost of rebuilding approaches the cost of a newer transmission. So, Mark is researching replacement transmissions. If we can find one that should work, we'll go that route.

What that won't tell us, unfortunately, is whether the oil that we see inside the engine is from the transmission or from the engine itself. The oil to be engine oil, but apparently on some transmissions you could get away with using some engine-style oils. To play it safe, I've asked for an estimate to replace the rear seal. Given where we are in the process, that seems like a smart investment. I'll also be receiving an estimate for the heat exchanger.

While I was there, I cleaned out the engine compartment. It looks MUCH better than it did. It could still use some additional cleaning, but this is about as much as I'm willing to do:









I also dried out the bilge and got almost all of the oil out of it. So, now we're starting from a better place once the engine work is finished.

I also had a chance to install the bimini I made. Its a little tight, but not so much so that I couldn't get it on.




























You can also see the lifeline pads and ladder pads that I made (kids complained about the ladder on the previous boat hurting their feet).

Next I need to install the "sunroof" into the bimini (helps to actually SEE the mast and sails!) and to make a "sock" to fit over the hole for the backstay, then I think I can officially sign off on the bimini and start on the dodger. I tried patterning that myself last trip, but I think I need a second set of hands for that one.

Thanks to BoatUS losing my order, I wasn't able to install the name today.


----------



## chef2sail

jimgo said:


> I went to HH today. Mark showed me the transmission and the engine. The damping plate is certainly toast. The inside of the bell housing is all scraped up, too. The heat exchanger's zinc probably had never been replaced, so the copper is starting to wear through. There are a few hoses that do need to be replaced. There is oil in the back chamber. So, the question was, how to proceed? I really don't want to invest in rebuilding the HBW5 transmission; I've read many places that the rebuilt transmissions tend to die within a few years, and the cost of rebuilding approaches the cost of a newer transmission. So, Mark is researching replacement transmissions. If we can find one that should work, we'll go that route.
> 
> What that won't tell us, unfortunately, is whether the oil that we see inside the engine is from the transmission or from the engine itself. The oil to be engine oil, but apparently on some transmissions you could get away with using some engine-style oils. To play it safe, I've asked for an estimate to replace the rear seal. Given where we are in the process, that seems like a smart investment. I'll also be receiving an estimate for the heat exchanger.
> 
> While I was there, I cleaned out the engine compartment. It looks MUCH better than it did. It could still use some additional cleaning, but this is about as much as I'm willing to do:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I also dried out the bilge and got almost all of the oil out of it. So, now we're starting from a better place once the engine work is finished.
> 
> I also had a chance to install the bimini I made. Its a little tight, but not so much so that I couldn't get it on.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can also see the lifeline pads and ladder pads that I made (kids complained about the ladder on the previous boat hurting their feet).
> 
> Next I need to install the "sunroof" into the bimini (helps to actually SEE the mast and sails!) and to make a "sock" to fit over the hole for the backstay, then I think I can officially sign off on the bimini and start on the dodger. I tried patterning that myself last trip, but I think I need a second set of hands for that one.
> 
> Thanks to BoatUS losing my order, I wasn't able to install the name today.


Good Job on the Bimini Jib....Did ou use a aipper to get it to the backstay?

Take some time to really clean the engine compartment and think about maybe soundproofing while you have the engine out of there. Its not that expensive and makes a world of difference. See T37chefs thread...he did an excellent job.


----------



## deniseO30

Jim this is what I have in mind if and when I need to do the deed. 








TECHNODRIVE Twin Disc TMC 40 P transmission
Sound marine diesel claims it's a direct replacement for our HBW5 and it's slightly cheaper then ZF (hurth)

Heat exchangers do come apart so the tubes can be scrutinized better.

The old trans should have automatic trans fluid in it.. (red)

Your almost there! Yay! (still hoping your trans is ok)


----------



## Faster

If the tranny ATF hasn't been changed in a while it's not got much 'red' left in it, but it will be lighter than engine oil.

This is one hell of a way to start with a 'new' boat, Jim, but it does/will settle one question mark and you'll feel better about things once you're done. Hope they get it together for you in time to enjoy the season.


----------



## jimgo

chef2sail said:


> Good Job on the Bimini Jib....Did ou use a aipper to get it to the backstay?


No, I thought that through some more, and figured I'd just release the backstay and feed it through. Turned out to not be that bad.

Yes, I'm kidding...I put in a zipper, with a large opening through which the backstay can move. I liked your idea of the double-zipper, but I have both a stay and a radar pole that sit in that space, and didn't like the idea of the zippers. So, I left a decent size hole (hopefully it is big enough, only time will tell! - I did test it by pulling on the backstay) and my intention is to create a "sock" that fits over the hole and the backstay/radar pole. That should help close off that area.

Soundproofing is absolutely on my list, if there is time. I don't want to hold off any longer than I have to, though. I saw Shawn's thread and thought it would be a great idea if I can get it in time.


----------



## jimgo

deniseO30 said:


> Jim this is what I have in mind if and when I need to do the deed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TECHNODRIVE Twin Disc TMC 40 P transmission


THANK YOU! That's good to know. I've heard mixed reviews about the ZF transmissions, so it's good to know there are other options. I read somewhere that a few of the ZF transmissions are pretty close to the same size as the HBW5 - within something like 1/4".

HH's opinion was that the transmission would have to be broken down to really know if there were issues, and I honestly don't want to spend the money on that. If it's broken down, will need to be rebuilt, and I'd rather spend that money on a new transmission, if one can be found that won't require completely rebuilding the engine compartment (hence my appreciation for your link!).

Regarding the heat exchanger, it was HEAVILY corroded on both ends, and the zinc was basically shot. The sidewalls in places were wearing thin, and you could see that some of the metal was missing (it was no longer brass, but copper). They did offer to put it back on in the current condition, and it IS in a location where I could (theoretically) replace it without TOO much difficulty but, after seeing the corrosion, I'm not all that inclined to risk it. If we were already "home" in Barnegat Bay it wouldn't be as big of a deal, but I've got a 4-day trip ahead of me, with part of that out in the ocean. I know my luck and that is when the exchanger would spring a leak. I'm better off replacing it.


----------



## jimgo

Faster, I agree. I'm annoyed that this happened, especially on the heels of losing our last boat. BUT, I keep pointing out to my wife that a) the damping plate is inside the engine, and unless we paid to have the engine rebuilt, we probably wouldn't have found the problem even IF we had hired a separate marine diesel mechanic; b) the damping plate failed while a professional captain had the boat, not while we were aboard trying to outrun a storm; c) we will now know we have a new transmission, new engine mounts, new heat exchanger, new damping plate, and new rear seal. That means that most of the major "wear" components will have been replaced, and we SHOULD have a known-good engine.

Yup, that's the story I'm tellin/sellin'!


----------



## deniseO30

I've been researching them quite a bit Jim. the new ZF IS the same as the old HBW5 if I understand the available information. The TwinDisc is a drop in fit, but rotation (CCW or CW) of your prop needs to be established. Love your canvas work Jim!


----------



## jimgo

Thanks Denise!

So, other than cost (which I'm not discounting!!), is there a reason to go with the TwinDisc over the ZF?


----------



## deniseO30

I _think_ they may be more reliable in the long run even though zf is still a great gear box. I know the rebuild kit is like $300 for the HBW. but if paying... that's going to put it right up there with a new one in cost. Of course you will have to make the final call Jim. 
Wishing you more good luck!


----------



## miatapaul

I think you are right about having them change the rear seal. I can't imagine even at marine prices it should not be much. I think my last Mercedes I did a clutch on it was around $20 and I find there parts are about the same as for marine stuff! My Miata was like $12 and if they have the transmission off it should not be more than a half hour of labor. If I were working on it I would not let it out without one unless the owner was very insistent that it was just changed.


----------



## jimgo

Thanks Paul.

BTW, I used to have a 1991 BRG LE. LOVED that little car! I now have an '06 Solara. Not quite as much fun to drive, but I can fit my whole family (somewhat) comfortably inside. Much moreso than my old Miata!


----------



## sony2000

I doubt you had two failures, the transmission and the DP. Risking reusing the tranny, is doable, especially since if your wrong , it can be changed out without removing the engine. Don't think you have changed so much, that something else major couldn't go wrong. I'm just trying to keep a grand ($), in your pocket.


----------



## jimgo

I appreciate the feedback Sony!

I just chatted with the insurance company. They haven't given up on me yet; they are still waiting for a definite cause of the problems. They said they might need the transmission to go out for inspection; if that happens, then I may wind up with a rebuilt transmission because I don't want to spend the money on the tear-down only to find that I need a whole new transmission.

The insurance company expects to be out at the marina tomorrow (Wednesday) to look at everything.


----------



## chucklesR

jimgo said:


> I appreciate the feedback Sony!
> 
> I just chatted with the insurance company. They haven't given up on me yet; they are still waiting for a definite cause of the problems. They said they might need the transmission to go out for inspection; if that happens, then I may wind up with a rebuilt transmission because I don't want to spend the money on the tear-down only to find that I need a whole new transmission.
> 
> The insurance company expects to be out at the marina tomorrow (Wednesday) to look at everything.


Well, at least they didn't tell you no, yet.


----------



## jimgo

LOL...exactly, Chuck...not YET. I suspect it's coming, but hey, I can dream!


----------



## jimgo

I received a call from the marina a few minutes ago. Their prices for most of the parts were as good as or better than what I had found online. In fact, the sourced a ZF6M transmission for $1225 which is a great price and better than what I had expected (and significantly less than any rebuild). Their heat exchanger is $428, the engine mounts are $150 each, and the damping plate is $165.


----------



## deniseO30

Good luck Jim!


----------



## Minnewaska

If a yard has the time to order parts, they may be getting them from the same place. They are usually given a wholesale discount and still make a profit selling it to you for the same price you would have paid. 

Everyone is happy.

Certainly, a yard could have a rogue supplier with a crazy price. More often, if there is no labor to make money on, the few dollars in parts markup may not pay for the yard to spend the time doing research for parts numbers, issuing the PO, placing the order, receiving and billing you. They may mark it up even further, as a result.

Given the large volume of work they are doing for you, I'm not surprised that parts costs are reasonable.


----------



## TakeFive

Jim,

I have been monitoring this thread since it started. I am glad that there finally seems to be light at the end of the tunnel for you, and I am confident that once you have this resolved you'll have a great boat that your family will love.

Reflecting back on how you got to this place, I feel especially bad that you did not choose this path. You had a great boat before Sandy took it from you. That acquisition was not totally without problems either, but because it was a smaller boat your solution was easy - just buy a new outboard motor.

Which leads to an important lesson for others who are just starting out with their first boat. Starting out with a simple boat with minimal systems (such as Jim's prior Catalina 25) is lower risk and likely to get you on the water quicker with less risk. If this "new boat" had been Jim's first one, he almost certainly would have given up by now. But having already sailed on his first boat, and gotten a taste of the joys that lie ahead (and some experience with solving problems), he knows the value of persistence in solving the issues with this second boat.

After reading Jim's issues with this boat, and the other issues that some of you here have described with your own boats, I realize how fortunate I am that I have never missed a day of sailing due to mechanical problems (knock on wood). Much of that is luck, but part of that is simply the fact that my little boat has relatively simple systems that are easy to fix. If my outboard motor were to go kaput, I could easily replace it. Of course, an outboard has other deficiencies if you get into serious swells and chop, but you can't beat its simplicity.

So for those of you who dream of starting out with a 35-40 footer, and looking to save money by getting a project boat for your very first boat, I'd suggest getting started with the smallest boat that can meet your minimal requirements. You'll be much more likely to get on the water with such a boat. Hold off on that "project boat" until your next one (or later).


----------



## chef2sail

TakeFive said:


> Jim,
> 
> I have been monitoring this thread since it started. I am glad that there finally seems to be light at the end of the tunnel for you, and I am confident that once you have this resolved you'll have a great boat that your family will love.
> 
> Reflecting back on how you got to this place, I feel especially bad that you did not choose this path. You had a great boat before Sandy took it from you. That acquisition was not totally without problems either, but because it was a smaller boat your solution was easy - just buy a new outboard motor.
> 
> Which leads to an important lesson for others who are just starting out with their first boat. Starting out with a simple boat with minimal systems (such as Jim's prior Catalina 25) is lower risk and likely to get you on the water quicker with less risk. If this "new boat" had been Jim's first one, he almost certainly would have given up by now. But having already sailed on his first boat, and gotten a taste of the joys that lie ahead (and some experience with solving problems), he knows the value of persistence in solving the issues with this second boat.
> 
> After reading Jim's issues with this boat, and the other issues that some of you here have described with your own boats, I realize how fortunate I am that I have never missed a day of sailing due to mechanical problems (knock on wood). Much of that is luck, but part of that is simply the fact that my little boat has relatively simple systems that are easy to fix. If my outboard motor were to go kaput, I could easily replace it. Of course, an outboard has other deficiencies if you get into serious swells and chop, but you can't beat its simplicity.
> 
> So for those of you who dream of starting out with a 35-40 footer, and looking to save money by getting a project boat for your very first boat, I'd suggest getting started with the smallest boat that can meet your minimal requirements. You'll be much more likely to get on the water with such a boat. Hold off on that "project boat" until your next one (or later).


A lot of good points.

Best boat in the best condition you can find for the type of sailing and use you will do. I would not get hung up on size. Size should be determined by how you intend to sail.

A 25 ft boat with an outboard would not meet our needs. It would have limited our sailing area, prevented us from staying aboard for a few days at a time comfortably. Not only would it not afford us the space, it would also prevent us fom sailing in heavier winds and conditions. An outboard would be woefully underpowered for taking trips as well as in larger waves do to cavitation. Plus I like having diesel as opposed to gas. Simpler too

There is nothing wrong with a boat with a number of projects if it meets the first criteria. It sure beats outgrowing your boat every few years. Taking the boat you want and slowly fixing it up is a great way to achieve that. Once you fix or redesign the systems they become new and updated. It's a waste of money and effort to keep buying and selling boats, and you risk their condition every time you do it.

To me it makes sense to try and get the largest boat you will need ,i n the best condition and improve its systems over time rather than lose money improving a boat you will sell.
At the same time you can use he boat.

To each his own, their is no set formula.


----------



## TakeFive

Dave,

It's true that there is no set formula for everyone, My advice was targeted at people who have never owned a boat before. It is definitely not targeted at someone like you who has sailed for over 40 years.

I will dare to speculate that the vast majority of newbs who come up here dreaming of crossing the ocean in a $5000 boat - the very type of people that get ridiculed here for their naivete - would do well to follow my advice. While there are exceptions to every rule, the overwhelming majority of these people will never cross oceans, and are far more likely to buy a project boat that never becomes seaworthy before they run out of time, money, and energy. A smaller, simpler boat that gets them some initial experience would be much better for the vast majority of them. It's a much better fate than the predicament that this guy finds himself in.


----------



## jimgo

Rick, I think you made a lot of valid points, and I've been re-hashing them many times over the past many weeks. It's ironic, though, I've had engine problems on both of my boats - the Honda on the C25 had problems in the water pump (the molded-in base in the lower unit, not the part that could be inexpensively replaced), and we wound up replacing that engine with a new one. This boat has problems in the "powertrain", and we're rebuilding parts of it.

For me, the take-away is that you never REALLY know what's wrong with the boat until you get it home and actually start using it (or, in my case, try to get it home). There may well be significant hidden costs in any boat.

My wife made the point that, for what we'll be investing in this boat, we could have bought a different boat in better condition. But this particular problem may be lurking in ANY boat, and unless you want to pay to have the engine disassembled, or if the PO can show you that it's been replaced recently, you'll never know that the problem exists.


----------



## chef2sail

Having seen Jimgos boat in person I would say that he got a great boat for his family and for years to come. Having the comfort items on board and inboard diesel fits right into his future plans. As he slowly fixes any issues and gets to sail her she will have much new equipment. His boat is large enough for his family of 4 comfortably to stay together on her for days at a time. It also offers great safety in its stability. He purchased a good solid boat. When I looked at it casually its build was of superior quality and she was in good cosmetic shape.

Any 30-40 year old boat will need its propulsion, electrical, water systems updated. That's a given. Once done however they are newer than a 10 year old boat. Putting $5-10,000 into this boat for the price he got it for will give him an updated solid boat to travel on anywhere for a price under $25,000 

In addition he got it for such a good price that in spite of him fixing his engine and tranny problems he still is making out well. When you buy a boat of that vintage you should expect to do something more than minor engine work in order to ensure its up to snuff unless it has been done recently. 

He has had some bad luck with his first boat getting destroyed and this boat needing repairs instantly to get it in shape, but make no mistake about it he got a good boat for the money including the repairs. I understand his frustration as he wants to get sailing like NOW. But eventually he will. 

I will have to disagree with you slightly on the size you should start with.

I say learn on a 22-25 which is trailerable or dockable. Unless you are just doing small lake or bay sailing for the most part I would suggest starting with a 27/28foot boat. The systems on it are more similar to larger boats so you can "learn" how to handle diesel engines, larger sail areas etc. 

Also the sailing experience is more positive due to seakindness and size to entice your spouse and kids to join in as a family activity. The ability to have amenities such as a hot shower, burners, room to sleep, enough electricity to run fans, etc is important to some. A slightly larger heavier boat will handle good winds in the 20-25 knot range easily and more comfortably. 

I learned on Hobie 16s and raced on friends 25 J's, and my first keelboat was a 28 Islander. I knew I liked sailing and if I bought anything smaller within 5 years I would be selling it so why wait. I also knew I would use my boat a lot so some of the non simplistic systems you speak about were some I wanted as criteria and also to begin learning about them.

You have to buy a boat which fits your needs and also some of your future needs I think. 

Which ever way you go I suggest you get the best condition ( good bones so to speak) largest boat you can for the money you can spend ( that means initially and overall)


----------



## chef2sail

TakeFive said:


> Jim,
> After reading Jim's issues with this boat, and the other issues that some of you here have described with your own boats, I realize how fortunate I am that I have never missed a day of sailing due to mechanical problems (knock on wood). Much of that is luck, but part of that is simply the fact that my little boat has relatively simple systems that are easy to fix. If my outboard motor were to go kaput, I could easily replace it. Of course, an outboard has other deficiencies if you get into serious swells and chop, but you can't beat its simplicity.


I also meant to add my 2 cents on this for what its worth.

Given the then complexity vs. simplicity model of a outboard engine vs. an inboard. I would also opt for the inboard ( and inboard diesel) every time. I would also opt for an inboard gas vs. an outboard gas engine, just because of protection of the engine and its ability to remain powered in heavier seas. I have found in board diesels to be less finicky, run forever, no need to have explosive gas on board, in no danger of being swamped or ruined by a large wave in a following sea.

Our Yanmar 30GMF is 30 years old has 4500 hours and is just broken in. It required an initial major tune-up when I bought the boat and occasional maintenance schedule and of course CLEAN FUEL, but its like the little engine that could. It amazes me sometimes at its steadiness.

Safety is knowing no matter how the weather is the engine will dig in and deliver for you. I don't want to worry about getting the engine swamped or whether the shaft is long enough to handle the swells.


----------



## Alex W

chef2sail: You would even go for an inboard on a 22' sailboat?

TakeFive's point is that a smaller boat generally has simpler systems and can be cheaper and easier to keep running. If you prioritize sailing over fixing boats that can be a major advantage.

One of those simpler to service and replace system is having an outboard vs an inboard.

The inboard has all sorts of other advantages and is pretty much a requirement as sailboats get longer than 27 or 28 feet. It has advantages on a boat under 25' and with a properly spec'd outboard the engine doesn't come out of the water.

I like my Yanmar too, but it's hard to argue with the point that JimGo would be out sailing right now if his new boat had come with an outboard. For a new sailor (first boat) JimGo's experience could be a major setback and get them away from sailing forever.

I tend to agree with TakeFive. I'm happy that I moved up to a more complicated boat with many more systems (beyond the inboard it also has heat, hot water, pressurized water, shore power, and networked electronics) than my Catalina 25, but I'm also happy that my introduction to sailing was a simpler boat with less systems to worry about.


----------



## deniseO30

My first sailboat was a Hunter 23 I made it a nice boat, but from the get go I knew I wanted larger; 30-35 ft. The money spent on the smaller boat would have been better served in the budget for a larger boat at the time. BUT, I listened to everyone saying "start small" I sold the H23 in 11 months for about what I bought it for plus the roller furling and head sail I added.

Many of us think boats as an investment but they are like cars. Very very FEW every appreciate in value. We see people making money flipping houses and cars. I don't see flipping as a money make for boat restorations. 

"Make it better for one's own needs and use" makes allot of sense and that's just what I do with my floating money pit. She always brings me home


----------



## jimgo

I got a call from the insurance adjuster; she said that she's not the final decision-maker, but in her informal opinion, there may not be enough here for Progressive to pay for the repairs. So, I sent the marina an E-mail authorizing them to continue with the repairs as we had discussed. I doubt it will be done this week (they still need to order the transmission, damping plate, engine mounts, and heat exchanger), but things are FINALLY going to start moving forward. Hopefully everything will bolt back together easily and the engine will run like a champ.


----------



## chef2sail

Alex W said:


> chef2sail: You would even go for an inboard on a 22' sailboat?
> 
> TakeFive's point is that a smaller boat generally has simpler systems and can be cheaper and easier to keep running. If you prioritize sailing over fixing boats that can be a major advantage.
> 
> One of those simpler to service and replace system is having an outboard vs an inboard.
> 
> The inboard has all sorts of other advantages and is pretty much a requirement as sailboats get longer than 27 or 28 feet. It has advantages on a boat under 25' and with a properly spec'd outboard the engine doesn't come out of the water.
> 
> I like my Yanmar too, but it's hard to argue with the point that JimGo would be out sailing right now if his new boat had come with an outboard. For a new sailor (first boat) JimGo's experience could be a major setback and get them away from sailing forever.
> 
> I tend to agree with TakeFive. I'm happy that I moved up to a more complicated boat with many more systems (beyond the inboard it also has heat, hot water, pressurized water, shore power, and networked electronics) than my Catalina 25, but I'm also happy that my introduction to sailing was a simpler boat with less systems to worry about.


No not an inboard on a 22 ft boat. Some 25s though come with inboards. 
I am not against outboards, just given a choice I would prefer an inboard.


----------



## deniseO30

"the engine will run like a champ". yup.. it runs and runs and runs Jim But it has a "sweet spot" on the RPMs I don't have a tach but I guess around 2500. At Low RPM those 2 cylinders tends to rock allot. Other then that It's a champ!


----------



## jimgo

Alex W said:


> I like my Yanmar too, but it's hard to argue with the point that JimGo would be out sailing right now if his new boat had come with an outboard.


I'm not so sure I agree with that. An outboard would be less costly to replace, that's for sure, but if we treat the outboard like I'm treating this inboard (i.e., that I'm not going to do the repair), and assuming I was looking to have it repaired instead of replaced, I think I'd be in basically the same situation - I'd be waiting for the repairs. Now, with an outboard I MAY have been able to take it off the boat and carry it to a shop that wasn't as busy, but my boat is 10,000 lbs. If I recall correctly, a "preferred" HP for that weight is something like 15-20HP. A long-shaft 15HP Tohatsu with remote is 135lbs, and the 20 is about the same weight. I'm not in bad shape and am about average strength, but that's too much for me to muscle myself. My 92lb XLS 9.8 was tough to handle on my own; I can't imagine adding another 40 lbs.

A new outboard would cost about half what the repair costs will be for the inboard, so if we were truly talking dollars, then I am more inclined to agree with you. But even then, I'd likely still need the marina to help do the install unless I could coerce some friends or sailnetters to come lend a hand.

I do agree, though, that starting with a smaller boat makes sense, and I agree with Rick that, had this happened last year when we first bought the boat, we'd probably be looking at how to get rid of the albatross as quickly as possible and wouldn't be back to boating for a long time (if ever).

My biggest gripe, other than the cost!, is with how long this has taken. Had I known 2 months ago that I'd be waiting this long, I might actually have tried to do some of the repairs myself, but that may have hurt me in any discussions with the insurance company.


----------



## deniseO30

*"My biggest gripe, other than the cost!, is with how long this has taken. Had I known 2 months ago that I'd be waiting this long, I might actually have tried to do some of the repairs myself, but that may have hurt me in any discussions with the insurance company."

*

For you and your family Jim. You are still coming out ahead and WITH a NICE boat!

I've come to love the sound of the little engine chugging away below my feet LOL It's only 16hp but the sound when the access doors are off, sounds like a big ole mack truck to my ears! LOL There are 4 or 5 Catalina 30s in my club and the engines in those are the 3 cylinder universals. In the 6 or 7 years I've been there None have had engine failures. And these guys use them too! It's a 100 miles to the bay and back and they do it every year. Motoring 12 - 15 hrs a trip is not uncommon. Heck just around home on the river I can putt putt 3 hrs without realizing it.


----------



## Faster

Once you're beyond daysailing it's important to have confidence in your auxiliary, for the reason Denise mentions. There's little worse than facing a 30-40+ mile 'motor' and spending the whole time just waiting for the noise to stop, and despite everyone's intentions/desires there's often going to be a deadline - darkness, tidal gates, marina office hours, etc. 

For you Jim, the upside of this experience should be putting that particular devil to rest.


----------



## deniseO30

Jim, I don't know how much more my little HBW5 can take! Last night I left my mooring with the club dingy in tow, and CLUNK, CLACK, SCREEEE! and the engine dies.... look down.. HUGE tree stump with root between my prop and rudder... there I was floating down the channel.. a couple of guys in a bass boat stopped by and they got the wood out.. then the tow line I had rigged up.. floated under.. and yup, CLUNK, CLACK, SCREEEE! It's wrapped on the prop! .. finally a couple of guy from my club came down and towed me back. later, after I got my wits, composure,and some dignity back I tapped the starter while in reverse and the line unwrapped. Whew....


----------



## dvuyxx

deniseO30 said:


> Jim, I don't know how much more my little HBW5 can take! Last night I left my mooring with the club dingy in tow, and CLUNK, CLACK, SCREEEE! and the engine dies.... look down.. HUGE tree stump with root between my prop and rudder... there I was floating down the channel.. a couple of guys in a bass boat stopped by and they got the wood out.. then the tow line I had rigged up.. floated under.. and yup, CLUNK, CLACK, SCREEEE! It's wrapped on the prop! .. finally a couple of guy from my club came down and towed me back. later after I got my wits and composure back I hit tapped the starter in reverse and the line unwrapped. Whew....


Sounds like an adventure!


----------



## TakeFive

deniseO30 said:


> .... look down.. HUGE tree stump with root between my prop and rudder... there I was floating down the channel..


Last night was the most debris I've seen in the river since Sandy. I don't understand it because the heavy rains were almost two weeks ago, yet I haven't seen the debris until yesterday. I fact, I had commented on how debris-free the river was this year.


----------



## deniseO30

It's the supermoon High and low tides Rick. Supermoon 2013: Biggest full moon of the year shines this weekend - latimes.com

Tides up here are running easy 3 ft higher then the usual 6ft

Tides for Burlington, N.J. starting with June 22, 2013.

Day High Tide Height Sunrise Moon Time % Moon
/Low Time Feet Sunset Visible

Sa 22 High 1:39 AM 9.1 5:31 AM Set 4:41 AM 96
22 Low 9:07 AM 0.5 8:32 PM Rise 7:45 PM
22 High 2:11 PM 7.6
22 Low 9:12 PM 0.4

Su 23 High 2:32 AM 9.2 5:31 AM Set 5:46 AM 99
23 Low 10:02 AM 0.3 8:32 PM Rise 8:43 PM
23 High 3:05 PM 7.7
23 Low 10:07 PM 0.4

M 24 High 3:25 AM 9.2 5:31 AM Set 6:56 AM 99
24 Low 10:54 AM 0.2 8:33 PM Rise 9:33 PM
24 High 4:00 PM 7.7
24 Low 11:01 PM 0.3


----------



## TakeFive

I'm aware of that. On our part of the river the tides are getting up to 7.5', as opposed to the normal 6.5'. But in the past debris wouldn't wash off the shores until things got to about 9.5', which usually requires a good heavy storm. IIRC, record high in Philly is 10.6', set (or at least tied) during Sandy. Irene was 10.5', and washed so much debris downriver that my boat was completely blocked in the slip by sticks. So the current high tidal swing didn't bring as much debris in the past few years.


----------



## chef2sail

Actually it probably is the unusual high tides which is washing down all the debris which may have happened within the last month.

It sounds like Denise's are 3 ft above normal.

The height of the high tide and past occurrences on only small factors in to future predictions. Another factor is the amount of debris created in the last month/ year since a similar high tide. In our area close by we have had an number of windstorms/ small deracho in the last thirty days, and a few tornados and waterspouts. There have been a lot of trees downed, unusual number in fact. 

What other explanation do you have?


----------



## Sal Paradise

+2

We are having the same problems in the Hudson River. Lots of wood debris all of a sudden. Unusual weather too. But at least all the wood keeps the Jetskis away, LOL.


----------



## jimgo

Thank you, all this talk about floating debris is making me feel better about not being in the water! 










I spent some time with the boat again on Saturday. I took advantage of the fact that she was out of the water and put the new name on. Of course, that meant that I first had to wash the hull (Awlwash) then clean the area where the name is to go, then get both sides aligned properly, etc. Then some Awlcare over everything. That "simple" job turned out to take from about 9:45 until a little after 1:00 PM. Then I replaced the gaskets and screens in 4 of the 6 opening ports. That, too, took longer than I expected, which is why only 4 got done. Then I made patterns for the dodger. That was an experience.

The engine was still off the boat, and I didn't see any obvious signs of it having been worked on. I called late last week to get a status update, but they didn't return my call which is a little disappointing. Hopefully I'll hear something today, otherwise I'll call them tomorrow.


----------



## Minnewaska

jimgo said:


> .......I called late last week to get a status update, but they didn't return my call which is a little disappointing. Hopefully I'll hear something today, otherwise I'll call them tomorrow.


I understand you're at one of the better yards too. It never ceases to amaze me how poor customer service is in the marine industry.

I couldn't imagine failing to return a customers call, at least by the end of the day. For a status update, even an email would suffice.


----------



## jimgo

I agree, Minne. What's really annoying to me is that I sent them an E-mail on Wednesday after I spoke with the insurance company. The E-mail summarized the work that I understood was to be done to the engine, including their estimated costs for the parts. I gave them instructions to proceed, and offered to send them a deposit. I also instructed them to not bother taking the old name off the transom as I had requested (it was still there last Saturday, several weeks after my initial request) because I had bought the tools to do it myself. I called on Thursday to confirm they received the E-mail, but didn't hear from them. When I got there Saturday, scaffolding was erected behind the boat (two ladders and an aluminum "board") and the name was off. I HOPE they got my E-mail and started ordering the parts!!! I would REALLY like to start moving her home, and timing-wise next week would be ideal because it is a short week.


----------



## deniseO30

That is a pretty paint job Jim! Call them again! "what's the hold up" would be my first question. You don't want the deposit I said is on the way? " would be my second LOL they have you were they want you and it's high season. Fortunatly it does seem they are good track record with others that you know. 

Well, I did get the line off the prop and my boat is back in operation with the new key switch. Funny now the old key switch works fine now that it's here in my hands back at the house LOL I'm getting 2 new batteries for my 2nd bank today.


----------



## Minnewaska

I hate to think they are making their local customers a priority and pre-Jul 4th is always a rush.


----------



## deniseO30

I've only one experience with a yard. This was about 5 yrs ago now. My son insisted on full main sail in a 20 mph windy day coming out of the Sassafras river the steering broke! With EM tiller we got back in and called George Town Yacht Basin they told me to take a mooring (Already had done that  ) "can't do anything until Monday" I was told. "We will send the water taxi out to tow you in first thing" Monday morning I got a call and they were approaching my boat! Later that day I got a call and a report that it was the pedestal bolts (We knew that) that let the sheaves fall and they would have it fixed by late day. $375 and they took a check! I've never been so impressed! As I've been in HVAC contracting most of my life, it takes allot to impress me LOL


----------



## jimgo

Denise, I forgot to thank you for the info on your transmission. It's good to know those things can take a beating; I'm sure I'll be torturing mine, too.

The transmission was really one of the big questionmarks for me. Do I send it off to be tested and possibly rebuilt, or just replaced? I asked about testing it, and the marina said that while they COULD hook it up and see if it "works", there is not guarantee that there isn't something broken/floating free in there that could cause problems later. Given that I still have a 4-5 day trip ahead of me, and that I've already been out of commission about 3 months, I'm not really willing to take the chance on that. That leaves me with rebuilding or replacing, and replacing is a) a lot less expensive than rebuilding, and b) gets me a part with a warranty, which will be highly prized as basically nothing else on my boat has one!


----------



## jimgo

Minnewaska said:


> I hate to think they are making their local customers a priority and pre-Jul 4th is always a rush.


I suspect that's exactly what they've done - local customers were a priority.

In the end, if they don't charge me for the storage, then, although it's annoying, it isn't as bad as it could be. It's frustrating to know that I have a slip at a nice marina that is sitting unused! But, otherwise, there isn't much I can do except pester Haven Harbour.


----------



## deniseO30

We's all praying to the sailing Gods for ye Jim!


----------



## Sixpak

jimgo said:


> I took advantage of the fact that she was out of the water and put the new name on.


Jim, that is absolutely beautiful!


----------



## jimgo

Thanks Six. I wish I could take credit, but I just washed and waxed it. Also, this side apparently sat facing the sun a good bit of the time. There are spots farther forward where the paint has an orange peel texture, and up near the bow it is actually crinkled. She'll need to be sanded and completely repainted at some point. That's another project I'm not looking forward to.


----------



## jimgo

Just heard back from the marina (I called them again this morning). Everything is ordered, and hopefully will begin moving apace. But there's no chance that she'll be ready by this weekend, which is REALLY frustrating. I had hoped to take advantage of the short workweek next week to move her without using a lot of vacation time.

On the plus side, Sailrite probably won't be shipping the "glass" for my dodger until Wednesday, so at least this buys me a few more days to finish the dodger, and I'll have a chance to do back and do more measurements for a "connector-piece" between the dodger and bimini before I start my trek.


----------



## bljones

nice cleanup, jim. she's looking great.


----------



## deniseO30

Well put my boat back on her mooring late today.. I ran the engine at near stall rpms there is still allot of junk floating through the mooring field. I think the same tree trunk that was under my boat is still going up and down. I don't know but then they all look alike. and like icebergs.. more is not showing.


----------



## chucklesR

Jim,
She's looking good. Thinking positive, at least you've had lots of time getting her in condition to enjoy.


----------



## deniseO30

And all those logs your not hitting....


----------



## jimgo

Yeah. I'm already planning what I'm going to do this weekend. I'm going to try to get down there Sunday and hopefully:
a) test-fit the dodger (assuming I'm able to finish it)
b) pattern the piece that will connect the dodger and bimini
c) rebuild the head
d) finish replacing the screens and seals around the opening ports

That's probably all I'll have time for this time. It's tough to get a lot of stuff done with the boat 2.5 hours away from home.


----------



## Faster

jimgo said:


> ..... It's tough to get a lot of stuff done with the boat 2.5 hours away from home.


I can't imagine... sometimes 30 minutes seems far away....


----------



## jimgo

I leave at about 7:30 AM, and try to be home in time for dinner. That leaves me 4-5 hours. That's a decent amount of time, but it basically limits me to one main project.

Imagine me trying to work on the engine...


----------



## Minnewaska

Of our immediate neighbors at our marina, only one is nearby. One is 90 minutes away, the next is 6 hours and the last is 9 hours. The later two from Canada! This is permanent, not waiting for repairs.

Always be grateful for what you have.


----------



## deniseO30

Well, river sailing is not so great, and the boat on a mooring next to an active shipping channel with weekend manics zipping up and down is not so great either. But, I can leave my house and be on the water sailing in 30-60 minutes.


----------



## jimgo

Once I get her fixed and to her new "home", she'll be an hour and forty-five minutes from me. It doesn't sound like much of a difference, but that buys me almost an hour and a half more time "on the ground" at the marina, which is huge from a productivity perspective.

It wouldn't be so bad if she was in the water - at least then it would be more fun for my kids to come down with me. As it is now, I'd be too worried about them falling off an almost 10' high structure if they tried to move around!


----------



## miatapaul

jimgo said:


> Once I get her fixed and to her new "home", she'll be an hour and forty-five minutes from me. It doesn't sound like much of a difference, but that buys me almost an hour and a half more time "on the ground" at the marina, which is huge from a productivity perspective.
> 
> It wouldn't be so bad if she was in the water - at least then it would be more fun for my kids to come down with me. As it is now, I'd be too worried about them falling off an almost 10' high structure if they tried to move around!


Plus if it is in the water you can spend the night on board, so even if you are not going out you have a whole day to work on it. Not many yards will let you overnight and hotels get expensive!


----------



## jimgo

I went down again today. They cleaned off the engine, and it looks better. It still needs a paint job, but that's not happening at this point. The parts have been ordered, and should be in this week. I'm tied up over Independence Day, so I can't get there this weekend anyway, and they've added me to the calendar with the intention of having everything done by the following weekend.





































I got there at about 11:00 AM, and the boat still had a smell to it. I'm guessing its the head, because short of ripping out the headliner, I don't know where the other odor could be coming from. So I stopped at West Marine and got some of their head odor stopper. I added that to the bowl and it foamed almost right away. I flushed it, and it made the head burp. It was kinda gross. So I flushed water (as per the directions), and it foamed and burped again. I wound up flushing almost an extra half gallon of water before things seemed to calm down some.

Then I hung the bimini again, and I brought the dodger with the intention of fitting it and adding the snaps so it would almost be done (still need to add the awning rope to the front). I got two snaps installed, and started to hear thunder. So, I packed up and headed home after only about an hour and a half. On the plus side, I should "just" need to install the snaps, then I will be done the bimini and dodger. With any luck, that means I should have a dodger to use on my trip "home" when the boat is ready.


----------



## deniseO30

Look familar? TheOP painted it white.








I have no proof but was told he replaced the original with the same. From knowing the old guy when buying the boat I do believe that he did.

I don't know why I've not taken more photos of my boat's innards LOL

Jim, a couple cans of Hi temp (of your color choice) they won't let you loose a couple of hrs to spray it? 
That rear seal is impressive!

Looks like they are taking care of you in a very professional manner!


----------



## jimgo

The old paint is flaking pretty badly in places. I'd need a few hours just to knock it all down. If it stays fairly clean, I may paint it over the winter. Granted, it won't be as easy, but i dont expect to be back to HH before it is back in the boat.


----------



## finding41

Jim why not wash the engine and paint it? I just washed my car engine to locate an oil leak and it looks good enough to paint. I used Gunk engine de-greaser and the power washer at the car wash. Looks great!
It's allot easier to clean and paint it out of the boat.


----------



## Minnewaska

It's an OCD thing, but I prefer engines are painted with their OEM color.

I'm betting its not going to drop back in the exact day they are done. You may get a small window to clean her up, if you coordinate and they cooperate.


----------



## deniseO30

I think some of the new engine paints may have some sort of better bonding then old oil based paints many of us have used.. Maybe those that have used them can chime in.


----------



## jimgo

Minne, you're probably right. But it will probably be reassembled some time next week, during the week. I won't be able to get there until the weekend, when the engine will likely be in the boat.


----------



## Minnewaska

jimgo said:


> Minne, you're probably right. But it will probably be reassembled some time next week, during the week. I won't be able to get there until the weekend, when the engine will likely be in the boat.


That would mean they install it within a couple of days of finishing the repair. On one hand, that would be great. On the other, that would be surprising. These are the same guys that had trouble returning your calls.


----------



## chef2sail

Minnewaska said:


> That would mean they install it within a couple of days of finishing the repair. On one hand, that would be great. On the other, that would be surprising. These are the same guys that had trouble returning your calls.


While I know Jim is very frustrated by not having his boat already, there have been many factors which has delayed it. It being in season when this occurred only served to exacerbate the "need" to get it fixed quickly. He is at a busy yard which has many appointments for work done on it. I can tell you it is hard to book appointments with them because they are so busy. I usually book mine atleast 3 weeks ahead for major work.That is because of their reputation.

I was very suprised about Haven Harbors lack of returning Jim's calls. Did they ever give an explaination? I have used them for years for major repairs such as tranny reconditioning, new injectors and overhaul of my Yanmar 3GM , new shaft, coupling , cutlass, dripless PSS seal, radar pole. Many of our friends and others on the other side of the Bay and in our club and other mainas on this side of the Bay, use them also because of their honesty, good work, warrentee, and thoroughness. I travel 4 hours by sail across the Chesapeake to have this work done because of their great reputation in spite of their being various other working yards closer to us. In addition they have on staff 5 certified marine engine specialists.

This was one of the reasons I recommended them personally over the phone to to Jim when he received his first diagnosis. He received a bid from a marina on the !Magothy which was outrageous IMHO and showed a lacked of wanting to tackle his job and the headaches of working on a 30 year old plus engine system with little to no maintainence records. Plus Jim could relistically get to Haven Harbor from his house in Pa in 2 or so hours so he could continue to update his newly purchased boat while it was worked on.

I and many others put Haven Harbor in a league with Port Annapolis, Zanheisers in Solomon's, as in the top 5 places to take your boat for any kind of work on the Chesapeake. I am hopeful Jim will comment when his work is finished as to how he finds their quality as well as price. Whatever his comments and criticisms are they will be valid and first hand. Comments from the users of this place are much more reputable than from posters who never have.

When Jim finally gets his boat to his home location he will also be at a great yard also Silver Cloud.

This sacastic disparaging criticism comment from 1500 miles away was made only knowing what you read and interrpreted. This is exactly how easily reputations are ruined or misunderstood. I only post ed this because I don't think it's fair to have this places reputation ruined or disparaged without at least some post to refute your implications. I will continue to recommend people to use Haven Harbor in Rock Hall. I also have no affiliation with HH.

Do not make this personal as in the past. It is all about your implications affecting this places reputation.


----------



## TakeFive

Maybe I'm too forgiving, but sometimes phone calls don't get returned because everyone is out actually working on boats. Everyone tries to keep costs competitive by minimizing staff (or can't find enough qualified staff), which means you often can't hire someone dedicated to returning calls/emails. And even if you did hire a cute intern to do that for the summer, often the nature of the questions is too technical for her to answer, and the guy who can answer them is too busy with his head in the engine compartment.

Sometimes, when the workload is overwhelming for the people who are available, something's gotta give, and given the choice of making phone calls, returning emails, or getting the yard work done, the latter has to take priority.

This applies as long as they return _my_ calls.


----------



## jimgo

They never gave a reason, but I suspect they don't always return my calls partly due to them being crazy-busy (their yard is still working 6-7 days), and partly due to the fact that I called every week for an update. After 4 or 5 weeks of saying "haven't gotten to it yet" I think they were more worried about updating the customers on whose boats they WERE working. It was/is annoying, but I can understand it, and I'm persistent enough to follow up a few days later.

It has been agonizingly slow, but I have never felt like they were pushing for work, or anything that didn't reasonably need to be done. They have been very fair, just slow to work and slow to communicate. Other than the speed (or lack of it), I have no other complaints. I told them that I don't want to rebuild the engine, or to throw money at it unnecessarily, but where it makes sense to do something (e.g., replacing the motor mounts and the rear seal since the engine is off the boat), I wanted to hear about it so I could decide whether to do it or not. And, where something is clearly on the verge of failure (like some of the hoses and the heat exchanger), I'd like to take care of those, too. They seem to be doing a good job of sticking to those guidelines, and as I mentioned earlier, they are doing a good job of finding parts that are fairly priced that will meet my needs.

Once the bill comes, my opinion may change, but for now I'm frustrated but content.


----------



## CalebD

I dunno. It all sounds kind of normal to me for a boatyard. Things happen at their own pace there.

One of the reasons I mostly do my own boat/engine work.


----------



## Minnewaska

chef2sail said:


> .......This sacastic disparaging criticism comment from 1500 miles away was made only knowing what you read and interrpreted. This is exactly how easily reputations are ruined or misunderstood. I only post ed this because I don't think it's fair to have this places reputation ruined or disparaged without at least some post to refute your implications. I will continue to recommend people to use Haven Harbor in Rock Hall. I also have no affiliation with HH.
> 
> Do not make this personal as in the past. It is all about your implications affecting this places reputation.


I did not disparage them. You have no need to come to their rescue.

It is not likely that any yard is going to run out to the boat and do a reinstall the moment they finish the repair. They didn't return his call, suggesting they are very busy. All the more reason not to expect them to rush it. As I said, on the one hand it would be great if they did. But it would be surprising.

Do you disagree?

You invented the disparaging. In the end, they failed to return a customers call. All boat yards seem to suck that way, including this one. Glad to hear they have good wrenches. I never took exception to it, unless you can note something I don't recall otherwise.


----------



## arf145

I hope to run into some boat techs someday that are so good that I feel compelled to defend their honor at every turn. But I think you can afford to dial that force field back a notch or two, Chef2sail. Not an unreasonable comment from Minnewaska, given the facts as stated--certainly nothing that's going to sully the rep of such a popular place.


----------



## chef2sail

arf145 said:


> I hope to run into some boat techs someday that are so good that I feel compelled to defend their honor at every turn. But I think you can afford to dial that force field back a notch or two, Chef2sail. Not an unreasonable comment from Minnewaska, given the facts as stated--certainly nothing that's going to sully the rep of such a popular place.


No sweat Tom. . Sometimes things like that become facts, especially in maybe a new readers mind who actually boats on the Cheesie, who was looking for a good reputable place. Reputations are ruined by less.


----------



## chef2sail

BTW how is your new boat? Any positive surprises?


----------



## arf145

Thanks for asking, chef! I hate saying this, but we haven't been sailing near as much as I'd like this year. Weather and travel have tag-teamed us. Other than the transport voyage, we've been out day sailing twice and rafted up with friends on an overnight on the Wye a week ago. On the one decent sailing day with light but steady winds somewhere between 5 and 7 kt, she sailed very nicely--a happy surprise. I'm enjoying the mainsail furling and consider the convenience a decent trade for missing some of that roach in the main. Happily surprised at the sail shape we get out of the main.

Not really a surprise, but a happy confirmation, is how well the Bene functions in her capacity as a cruiser. Cockpit size and comfort is excellent (for sailing and for happy hour for 6), the salon is very comfortable, the galley is great, and most importantly, my wife was happy with the comfort of the aft cabin and all the above.

We've always liked an open canvas-less cockpit, but I have to say that motoring (very little wind, right on our nose) back from the Wye in a steady rain was _way _more pleasant with that bimini and dodger!

I'm still familiarizing myself with the boat mechanics, but I like the organized layout of the plumbing. The wiring is neat but in the engine area all is anonymously cloaked in black tubing. Engine access is excellent.

Not so happy? A tiny single-speed Lewmar 16 on the coach roof? The Lewmar 30s for the jib sheets could be larger. Engine kill control is arranged in such a way that the helmsman can't operate it without moving from behind the wheel.


----------



## deniseO30

I have to say I'm really impressed how well things are going for Jim. 

Being separated from our boat is like being away from a spouse or SO it seems.. She could be sitting for weeks unused, but if she needs to away we want her back post haste!


----------



## jimgo

I forgot to give a shout to North Sails. The UV cover on my jib was shot - the thread had been eaten by UV. I tried sewing it on my heavy-duty machine, but the foam in the luff made it too thick for my machine to handle. I called several local lofts, but they were all too busy to take me in any reasonable period of time (most said 3-6 weeks). So, I asked at Haven Harbour, and they said that they use North. North Sails even picks up sails from the marina, which saved me from having to drive to Stevensville or Annapolis. My sail was ready in only a few days, which is GREAT! I still haven't had a chance to hoist it (something about turning my boat into a "kite" while on jackstands didn't seem like a good idea), but I'm very happy with their turn-around time, and the people I talked to were very nice.


----------



## deniseO30

Do you have a "sail inventory" on the boat Jim?


----------



## jimgo

No. Just the furling jib/genoa, and the main. I'd like to add to the inventory for redundancy purposes, but for now, this will have to do.


----------



## deniseO30

ck your pm Jim


----------



## jimgo

I spoke with the marina a little earlier this afternoon. The replacement transmission and damping plate have arrived, but they are still waiting on the heat exchanger and the rear seal. Those are expected any day now. I also asked them to paint the engine for me, if they thought it was necessary (and I suspect they will think so).


----------



## emcentar

Hang in there.


----------



## jimgo

The suspense is killing me. I haven't heard from the marina, so I'm guessing that they are still waiting for parts. That being said, the way I found out the boat had been pulled from the water a few months ago was by driving down there and seeing another boat in her (temporary) slip. It's entirely possible that when I head down on Sunday, she'll be floating in the water somewhere.

I wish they had a webcam.

Actually, no I don't. Then my productivity would REALLY drop.


----------



## deniseO30

The suspense is killing us too Jim! Here's hoping!


----------



## jimgo

Well, no luck. Apparently they are having trouble finding the rear seal for the engine. As a Universal dealer, they have to work through the appropriate channels to find the parts, and that has been dragging on for a while. While I was there, I remembered about the engine being based on a Kubota engine, and asked if they would check with the Kubota dealer, which they agreed to do soon if the Universal distributor, or Universal/Westerbeke itself, can't help.


----------



## Minnewaska

More than once, I have sourced the part for the boat yard, when they have difficulty. Ironically, they are sometimes limited to certain distributors where they get wholesale pricing or have billing established. You can order retail on the internet anywhere.

They've typically been happy to allow it, because the few bucks they make on the single part is being eaten up with too much research and phone calls.

Once, I had a boat yard swear to me that a part was not in inventory in the entire country, but I was looking at it online, while on the phone. The manager swore the inventory was wrong, so I called the vendor and asked them to verify. Long story short, I had it drop shipped to the yard overnight the next day. It turns out that their outside electronic contractor told them it did not exist, but did not have access to this particular source.

The internet has become a great tool for dealing with misinformation from boat yards. I'm not saying yours is misleading. They did admit they have limited sources, which is common. Yours gets a gold star for being honest.


----------



## deniseO30

Hey Jim.. sorry to hear that. From the discussion http://www.sailnet.com/forums/diesel-engine-forum/65909-my-universal-5416-kubota-engine.html 
I got this

The tractor the engine was in is the Kubota L185 and the engine is a Z-751 (our 5416)

This outfit was raved about as the one to call! Hope this helps!

Keller-Bros Kubota
250 Schaeffer Rd
Lebanon, PA 17042
Local - (717) 949-2000
Toll Free - 1-877-4KUBOTA (1-877-458-2682)

Local
Keller-Bros Kubota
730 South Broad St.
Lititz, PA 17543
Local - (717) 626-2000
Toll Free - 1-877-3KUBOTA (1-877-358-2682)


----------



## deniseO30

found this too.


----------



## edguy3

Minnewaska said:


> ]
> They've typically been happy to allow it, because the few bucks they make on the single part is being eaten up with too much research and phone calls.


It also moves the liability for parts selection, reliability, and replacement to you.

/ed


----------



## Ajax_MD

edguy3 said:


> It also moves the liability for parts selection, reliability, and replacement to you.
> 
> /ed


Yes, but it's a basically just a gasket. It's also better than hitting a roadblock and giving up.


----------



## jimgo

I agree with both of you. If I buy the wrong part, it's my problem. However, the marina said that they would compare the parts and try to ensure that they were good replacements. I have to hope that the guy will know what to look for!

Before I start checking inventories, I need to make sure I'm looking for the right part. I think it's 298695 (http://www.ewmanchester.com/CalDocs/Universal Diesel_5416_Parts.pdf), but I've asked my dad to confirm since this is all new to me.


----------



## deniseO30

Kubota tractor corp site. 
http://www.kubota.com/default.aspxJim I found the kubota part number for the seal 
15221-04460 I think it's correct but you will need to confirm it with the parts person you talk with.


----------



## jimgo

Denise, you rock! Thank you VERY much!

I have E-mailed Torrenson Marine and a few others who listed the Universal-branded part on their web sites. If one of them has it in stock, I'll probably just order from them. I know the Kubota part will be cheaper, but this will give the marina extra cover in the event Universal, or the distributor, complains to them.


----------



## deniseO30

Thanks Jim! The research is helping me also. I'd just get the Kubota part. Universal is just a name, they are going to do the same thing. Phone calls are always the best way too. Thing is, atomic universal engines are old and the numbers are probably no longer searchable. 

Oh.. how much yardage would my stack pack cover need? If we make one.


----------



## jimgo

Denise,
I made a standard cover, not a stack-pack, so I can't tell you for sure, but from what I've seen they seem to be similarly constructed (the zipper/closure is "just" on the top, instead of the bottom). My cover was something like 14' long. It had a gradual taper, but most of the height came in the last 3 feet or so, so I was able to carefully lay out my pieces and, rather than needing 2 pieces of fabric at 14' each, I was able to get everything to fit on an 18' (6 yard) piece. Actually, mine was two 3-yard pieces that were sewn together. That means I have a seam that runs across my sail cover somewhere near the middle. For what I was able to save on the cost of the material ($72 instead of between $114 and $190) by ordering the smaller pieces, I was content to have the seam there.

I also purchased some vinyl for inside the sail cover (remnant table at Joanne's since it would be hidden). The vinyl lines anywhere there is likely to be chaffing. I may be sorry I didn't go with a more breatheable fabric; only time will tell.


----------



## deniseO30

You rock Jim! thanks! Just checked on my boat. All is good, bilge smells a bit LOL engine starts with the new key switch, PSS seal still dry, All the rain cleaned allot of the deck mildew off somewhat. Also and; NO floating tree trunks under the boat! But know this; it IS deadly hot out there. (at least for me)


----------



## Minnewaska

edguy3 said:


> It also moves the liability for parts selection, reliability, and replacement to you.
> 
> /ed


Each time I've done it, I went looking for the part number that my boat yard gave me. I suppose I would have a problem returning it, if they were wrong. But they would still be liable for being wrong.

Perhaps coincidental, but I've only ordered OEM parts this way.


----------



## jimgo

deniseO30 said:


> You rock Jim! thanks! Just checked on my boat. All is good, bilge smells a bit LOL engine starts with the new key switch, PSS seal still dry, All the rain cleaned allot of the deck mildew off somewhat. Also and; NO floating tree trunks under the boat! But know this; it IS deadly hot out there. (at least for me)


I agree about the heat. Yesterday was nasty! I installed my home-made dodger and put all the snaps in, which took almost 2 hours. Then I decided to take off some of the trim so I could rebed it (I think some of the water in my cabin was from there), and 1 of the 5 pieces gave me a REALLY hard time. That piece alone took over an hour. All told, I was out in the sun for almost 5 hours before I called it quits. I was exhausted and hot, and just needed to get into air conditioning!


----------



## jimgo

Minnewaska said:


> Each time I've done it, I went looking for the part number that my boat yard gave me. I suppose I would have a problem returning it, if they were wrong. But they would still be liable for being wrong.
> 
> Perhaps coincidental, but I've only ordered OEM parts this way.


I talked to Torrensen, and they don't have any of my seals. Their quick search of other vendors also wasn't successful. They said they could order one, but it would be 2 weeks.

In the meantime, I double-checked Denise's Kubota part number and it does appear to be the same part. I found a (somewhat) local distributor who has one in stock, and told the marina that if they can't find the Universal part soon, I'll pay the $30 for the part and have it sent to them so they can confirm whether or not it is a match. I am tired of waiting, and don't want $30 to keep me from getting in the water 2+ weeks sooner.


----------



## deniseO30

I was on ebay and sailrite.. More confused then ever! ARRRG $$$$$ looking for "fabric" sheese! Hundreds of choices! The Bim on my boat is a very light tan. "linen" color I think. The girl that made it bombed big time even though the bim itstelf is very well made. I can't get her back for anything. So Pat and me are going to "go for it" and start sewing. she's lots of sewing exp. me.. eh.. ok so I can't do everything! LOL 
My boat has a dodger  but it's blue I want to do it over in Tan or linen or what ever the $#%^& is. I would only use a dodger in cool or cold weather.. they really block air flow when underway, even with the roll up clear stuff. 

Just get the seal sent Jim.  a $10-30 item isn't going to P.... off the shop.. It didn't even look like your engine needed one.. which (I think) can be determined by bench running the engine. of that would mean more $ 
Hang on Jim! your almost there!


----------



## CalebD

You are lucky that Torreson does not have your rear seal.
They can charge up to 10 X the Kubota dealer price for the same parts.
Get used to sourcing your parts from Kubota instead.


----------



## deniseO30

_Has this very strong feeling that universal engine part vendors are searching for parts the same way she did_


----------



## jimgo

deniseO30 said:


> I was on ebay and sailrite.. More confused then ever! ARRRG $$$$$ looking for "fabric" sheese! Hundreds of choices! The Bim on my boat is a very light tan. "linen" color I think.


I think SailRite has a book of fabric samples that you can rent for a few dollars, and that could be a very good way to narrow it down. I didn't go that route - I found a few vendors on eBay who had fabrics that looked close to what I wanted and asked for samples, then we picked the one we liked.



deniseO30 said:


> My boat has a dodger  but it's blue I want to do it over in Tan or linen or what ever the $#%^& is. I would only use a dodger in cool or cold weather.. they really block air flow when underway, even with the roll up clear stuff.


Making the dodger was much harder than making the bimini. If you decide to go that route, get the SailRite DVD. If you want, I can lend you my copy.



deniseO30 said:


> Just get the seal sent Jim.  a $10-30 item isn't going to P.... off the shop.. It didn't even look like your engine needed one.. which (I think) can be determined by bench running the engine. of that would mean more $


The big problem is that bench testing would require reassembling everything and, if it fails, disassembling again. Plus, it's probably original to the engine. I'd rather not be 2 days out (halfway along my migration north) and have that fail.

In the end, you're probably right about just ordering the part!


----------



## deniseO30

PM Jim.


----------



## jimgo

I'm glad I held off. Just got an E-mail from the marina, the parts are on their way. Universal/Westerbeke shipped a seal, and everything should be here this week. That doesn't mean the boat will be ready before this weekend, but we're closer!


----------



## deniseO30

Ah Ha!


----------



## Cap'n Russ

Hi, Jim,

Just came across your saga, wow! Got me interested enough to join Sailnet! ;-)

My experience, for what it's worth, working on old engines has taught me that if you've got easy access to the engine, replace anything/everything you hold suspect or is approaching/past its useful life (running time or calendar time) on the engine while you have that easy access. It may result in a larger than planned for bill now but it will save you time & $$ down the road. It looks like you've been taking that approach. 

Best of luck getting everything back together and splashed. We had our Beneteau's shaft seal and cutlass bearing replaced before we splashed this year. We didn't have to wait nearly as long as you have, but we ran into similar frustrations WRT returning phone calls, keeping us up to date and so forth. We've been in the water 3 1/2 months now and so far, so good.

Hope all works out well!

russ


----------



## jimgo

Russ, I'm flattered that it would get you to join! Though, quite honestly, I'd rather NOT have been in this position... LOL

You're right. At this point, I'm trying to make any repairs/replacements that make sense. I don't want to completely rebuild her, but it seems like something like a seal should be replaced at this point, especially since the marina has such easy access to it. It's just frustrating that a simple, inexpensive, and (I would have thought) common part would be the hold-up.

Welcome aboard, and thanks for the well wishes! BTW, I used to live "next door" to you, in Reston. It has been 5+ years since we moved, and while we're glad we moved, we still miss NoVA. Not the traffic, or the congestion, though.


----------



## jimgo

Here are a few gratuitous shots from this weekend:

New dodger, still needs some tweaks:









Damping plate mounted into the assembly:









New Transmission:









Painted engine:


----------



## jimgo

BTW, given the costs, my father's comment was that the gold color was appropriate.


----------



## deniseO30

That a "drive saver" on the output Jim?


----------



## Cap'n Russ

Glad things are moving forward, looks like you're on the home stretch! 

Traffic in NoVA continues to get worse and more and more people move into the area. It will be interesting to see if the budget sequester slows down the influx. About the only real change since you left is they're just about done building the Silver Line out to Reston. They still have a ways to go to get it to Dulles, but I saw a test train moving down the tracks last week.

Our boat is in Annapolis, so I can relate to having to drive 1 1/2 hours one way just to get to it. I've spent the night aboard several times so I could get a full day's worth of work on her. Still, it's better than driving down to Norfolk to sail which is what I had to do if I wanted to sail on the Chesapeake before I bought into my current boat!


----------



## jimgo

Russ, that's exactly why I didn't get into boating when I lived down there. Annapolis was a nasty drive on the weekend/Friday night, and getting to the shore was basically a non-starter. It was just as easy/took just as long to drive up to NJ. I never really considered keeping a boat on the Potomac, but in hindsight, I wish I had considered it.

Denise, I think that's what it is. I forgot to ask!


----------



## Cap'n Russ

So far, it hasn't been too bad. We keep the boat in Eastport and we take a back way in that avoids most of the buffoonery on 50. Since I'm in LoCo, I can head north to Frederick and over if the Beltway is acting badly. 

The red donut looks like a shaft saver. Wishing we had put one on our Yanmar's shaft when we did the shaft seal R&R. Our Yanmar is a 2-banger and it lets you know it at low RPM!


----------



## jimgo

From the research I did last night, it does appear to be a drive saver. I've read mixed reviews of them. Apparently they need to be replaced after about 5 years. Hopefully I'll remember that!


----------



## manatee

> It's just frustrating that a simple, inexpensive, and (I would have thought) common part would be the hold-up.


Like this old proverb?

For want of a nail the shoe was lost. 
For want of a shoe the horse was lost. 
For want of a horse the rider was lost. 
For want of a rider the message was lost. 
For want of a message the battle was lost. 
For want of a battle the kingdom was lost. 
And all for the want of a horseshoe nail.

Maybe we should rewrite it with a nautical theme, assuming no one has already.

Hang in there, splash time is coming!


----------



## deniseO30

Uh.. it didn't do it's job Jim  (hope this is taken as humorous ) But the flex plate would have gone south anyway. The damn things are always breaking! 

I'm almost 2 months from my tentative plan to motor down river (good 12 -16 hours) to the Chessie in late Sept ...I've done this trip about 4 times over the past few years. She's always brought me home lol


----------



## jimgo

Oh, that's the new transmission, Denise! Te old transmission didn't have the coupler/drive saver on there.


----------



## emcentar

jimgo said:


> Russ, that's exactly why I didn't get into boating when I lived down there. Annapolis was a nasty drive on the weekend/Friday night, and getting to the shore was basically a non-starter. It was just as easy/took just as long to drive up to NJ. I never really considered keeping a boat on the Potomac, but in hindsight, I wish I had considered it.


I live in downtown DC and have been sailing on the Potomac for years. I strongly considered keeping a boat on the Potomac just so I could get to her easily and sail her more often, but honestly, sailing the upper Potomac is, well, a little boring after a while. And I really dislike where most of the marinas are located - most under bridges and airports. Belle Haven, by far my favorite (and where I took my first sailing classes) only has a few slips and a very long wait list.

So now I drive to Deale, and as long as I avoid trying to get there in the evening rush hour (Suitland Parkway can get pretty bad for about two hours) it's 50 minutes of relaxing parkways - an easy trip. I think it's much prettier and more relaxing than the drive to Annapolis on 50, but YMMV.


----------



## chef2sail

emcentar said:


> I live in downtown DC and have been sailing on the Potomac for years. I strongly considered keeping a boat on the Potomac just so I could get to her easily and sail her more often, but honestly, sailing the upper Potomac is, well, a little boring after a while. And I really dislike where most of the marinas are located - most under bridges and airports. Belle Haven, by far my favorite (and where I took my first sailing classes) only has a few slips and a very long wait list.
> 
> So now I drive to Deale, and as long as I avoid trying to get there in the evening rush hour (Suitland Parkway can get pretty bad for about two hours) it's 50 minutes of relaxing parkways - an easy trip. I think it's much prettier and more relaxing than the drive to Annapolis on 50, but YMMV.


I take work at the Capitol in DC and take 50 and 97 everyday for work ( I live north of Baltimore ). 50, even on summer Fridays is really a quick wide open road till you get down by the Servern, but you could get off at Rowe Blvd or Davidsonville if you are monitoring to see if there is a backup by then.

On Friday evenings it takes me 50 minutes to get to our boat which is in Pasadena, about 5 miles further than it is to Deal. I find the traffic really moves on 50 unless you are heading to DC. The real nightmare roads are the DC beltway (495) and 95 or 295 between Baltimore and DC.

Keeping our boat on Rock Creek makes the whole northern Cheasapeake available in a 4 hour sail like Worton, Still Pond , Sassafrass ( 5 hrs) which are nettle free usually year round. You also are a 4 hour sail to Annapolis, West/ Rhode (5), or St Micheals (6).

I keep in perspective many who live in Pa ave at least a 2 hour ride to their boat. 50 minutes to 65 minutes for a good location is worth it.

Dave


----------



## jimgo

Yeah, I wish I had looked into it more when I was there, Dave. In my mind, the Chesapeake was like the Potomac or Delaware (all I had to do was look at a chart, but I was young...), or like Great Egg Bay. If I had realized that I could do THAT much sailing/boating there, I might have been more tempted to stay in the DC area.


----------



## TakeFive

jimgo said:


> Yeah, I wish I had looked into it more when I was there, Dave. In my mind, the Chesapeake was like the Potomac or Delaware (all I had to do was look at a chart, but I was young...), or like Great Egg Bay. If I had realized that I could do THAT much sailing/boating there, I might have been more tempted to stay in the DC area.


When I decided to keep my boat in the Delaware a few years ago, I explained to my father that I thought I'd use the boat much more with it just 12 minutes away from my house. He immediately laughed and told me "that's exactly why we kept our boat in the Potomac when you were a kid."

I grew up with powerboats in the DC area, and IMO the Potomac is much more suited to powerboats because of all the submerged pilings, trees, and other crap there. I vividly remember that my father refused to ever leave the channel in the Potomac because of the possibility of dinging our 18" 4-blade prop (which was a true work of art). I know of a guy who sails a Catalina 25 out of DC, and of course a whole bunch of sailboats in Washington Sailing Center and some in Belle Haven and Ft. Washington (where we lived), but it is a tough place for any boat with a fixed keel. Beautiful scenery from the river, though, with neat views of the city, old Town, and no industrial stuff to obscure the view. The ugliest thing there is the airport.

The Delaware has much deeper water, which is nice, but swifter currents (partly because of the deeper water) and not as nice scenery. But it's nearby.

If I lived back in the DC suburbs and had a sailboat, I would not put it in the Potomac because of all the submerged stuff. I'd go with Deale (where my grandparents lived), Mayo or Shadyside (where may aunt and uncle kept their sailboat), or maybe Pasadena (if Dave would have me lol). It would be worth a 30-50 minute ride to me. Unfortunately, it's further than that from where I live now, though I may still consider Bohemia River in the next few years. Although Bohemia Bay Yacht Harbor is exposed to the southwest, the pics look like it's well seawalled in, and I would hope I can get in there with my 3.5' draft, though I know the Bohemia entrance is full of unpleasant surprises.


----------



## T37Chef

Expensive, but the ICC makes getting east from points north of DC topoints south of Baltimore easy and quick


----------



## jimgo

I went down yesterday, and was disappointed to see that she was still out of the water. The team working on her was off (they rotate weekends), so nobody knew what was going on. Just got a call, the seal apparently arrived on Friday. They were in the process of removing the old seal now, and about to start putting everything back together. Their goal is to have her back in the water by Friday.


----------



## deniseO30

Well Summer isn't over yet Jim!


----------



## jimgo

I should get at least 3 more months on her. So, I guess that's a start!


----------



## Cap'n Russ

And quite frankly, with the weather we've been having lately, you wouldn't want to be on her anyway!


----------



## jimgo

LOL...yes and no. It would have been nicer to do the work I've been doing if she was in the water where it was a little cooler! But I agree, late July and August aren't really my preferred times to be doing much of anything outside.


----------



## jimgo

I spoke with the marina this morning, and Dragon Wing is in the slings and about to be launched. They still need to test the engine to make sure that she is working properly, but we're getting closer!


----------



## bljones

Good news!!!!!!


----------



## Minnewaska

Celebrate! Then shake her down well. She's undergone major surgery and its common to need a tweak. Hopefully, only a tweak.


----------



## chef2sail

Thats great news Jim. We will be anchored in Swan Creek Friday night leaving for Worton for our clubs Mini Vous on Saturday night. Looks like great weather and swimming nettle free. GIve us a shout on the VHF or phone if you are out Saturday testing her.

I have to test out the time the trip to Worton takes as someone pulled DFerrons leg saying it took 8 hours for an IP from Rock Hall, I mean I know those IPs are famously slow, but 8 hours??????


----------



## jimgo

I headed to Haven Harbour today to check out their handiwork and to knock out a few more projects. Hearing that I was going to be within a half mile of him, Dave (Chef2Sail) was sure to high-tail it out of the area before I arrived.

When I got there, the CFO suggested that I take Dragon Wing for a test-spin with Haven Harbour's diesel mechanic. She started right up, sounded great, and roared along at the incredible speed at which these boats are capable. Ok, ok...she hit 3000 RPM and sounded good, no overheating, and no belching of antifreeze or oil. I was very pleased. I still don't know what the total cost will be, they need to "review" the charges, so my exact level of "pleasedness" may change!

The fuel dock had a waiting line, so I didn't do the pump-out that I wanted, but they will do it during the week.

During the repair, three small problems were noted: 1) the water heater wasn't connected properly and may have been sucking sea water for some time, so the mechanic disconnected it and recommended bench testing it at some point; 2) the temperature sender and gauge seem to be incompatible (gauge reads 200 degrees, but IR thermometer says 130 outside); and 3) the oil pressure alarm isn't hooked up. The previous owner had 2 gauges and 3 sensors/senders aboard, so I've asked the marina to see if any of the various permutations/combinations of the equipment might actually work properly. They are looking into the oil pressure alarm and getting me an estimate for that work.

When I spoke with them, they also recommended that I not leave quite yet. They want me to run the engine for a few hours, so we know everything is good. Initially, I was inclined to run out of there ASAP (i.e., Monday morning), but I think actually that their suggestion is a good one. So, I'm planning on staying there for a few more weekends, until things quiet down for me, then make the move up to Barnegat Bay. At this rate, I probably won't be moving her until close to the end of August.

While I was there, I re-fit the dodger, which I had adjusted last week to try to get a better fit. I decided to shock the fresh water system, and while I was letting the bleach do its thing, I started cleaning up and putting away a lot of "stuff". The floor still needs to be cleaned properly, but the cabin actually looks somewhat organized now. Well, more correctly, it doesn't look like a war zone.

The cabin also had lost most of the smell that had plagued it for much of the time I owned it. I had originally thought that it was head odor, and I'm sure that's contributing to it, but I now think it may have been bilge odor. Several weeks ago when I was there, I had spent a long time cleaning the headliner and other parts of the cabin, and the following week things actually smelled decent. After that, though, the cabin really had a weird, sickeningly sweet smell. In an effort to help get rid of it, last week I decided to put bilge cleaner in the bilge. If nothing else, I figured the orange scent might help mask things a bit. Well, today when I opened her up, I wasn't hit with a wall of nasty smell. The marina had apparently pumped out the bilge, and it looked much better, too. I'm sure the cooler temperature this week also helped, but I'm glad I tried the cleaner.

For the first time since we bought her, I left today feeling comfortable about having my kids aboard, so I may pack 'em up next weekend and bring them down and go for a ride.


----------



## chef2sail

Great news Jim. Actually we left about 10 quickly as a huge PB dragged anchor and created mayhem in the anchorage. We were peacefully eating breakfast in the cockpit when we heard horns blowing and saw the idiot . He never Ike up despite having 15 boas pul anchor to get out of his way. 

Had a great sail to the Chester River, Cackaway and are here for the night. Heing back across the Bay in the AM.

It's great news that the boat s nearing completion. I know it will be expensive, but considering wht you paid for her, and th impromptus you made while he was being fixed you make out with peace of mind with the new tranny and engine overhaul. Won't have to worry as much about hat the PO did now.

Hope the wife and kids like her.


----------



## jimgo

Thanks Dave! Sorry I missed you again. Hopefully one of these weekends!


----------



## Minnewaska

Great news that you've got her running again! As I said above, you definitely want to stick around and shake her down. She will require tweaking after major surgery. If you get her home, you're not only going to the end of the line for maintenance, but you'll have to pay to fix any inadvertent mistakes. There are always a couple in such a larger job.

Plan to take a day sail or two, not just a 30 min run.


----------



## Ajax_MD

It's almost time to close this thread.


----------



## Morild

BubbleheadMd said:


> It's almost time to close this thread.


Yes, and that is a good thing for Jim 

But I would like to say that this thread has been great. Especially because Jim has continued to post. Often we see threads with a sailor in "distress" getting a lot of advice, and then never hear the end of it.

But not this one, that has been great, and soon we will hear about Jim's adventures at sea


----------



## deniseO30

BubbleheadMd said:


> It's almost time to close this thread.


nah .. make it a sticky!


----------



## CalebD

One thing I take away from this thread (which I think I already knew) is that if you have emergency repairs that must be done by a boat yard (reputable or not) during the summer season - it is going to take a long, long time for them to finish the work.

Given Jim's circumstances I would have likely chosen the same, slightly frustrating route.


----------



## jimgo

Bubble, yes, I think it's basically time to shut this down.

Sorry it has dragged on for 39 pages! As was mentioned above, I wanted to keep it open so others could see what happened from start to finish. She's back in the water and seems to be running OK, so other than maybe an update or two over the next few weeks, I won't really be updating it any more.

I do need to thank everyone who participated, especially early on. Thank you for helping to buoy my spirits - that was huge. Of course, thank you for your technical knowledge too.


----------



## Minnewaska

39 pages? I choose the setting that displays 100 posts per page. You haven't filled 3 yet. . By always choosing the View First Unread button, it takes me right to where I left off, then I don't have to endlessly update pages.

I bet some of us would like to hear how the shakedown goes.


----------



## chucklesR

Apparently you are meant to have a boat, repair bills and weird smells included.


----------



## chef2sail

Keep the thread till the fat lady sings and you get her home. Those who feel its enough can just pass by it. It has been a good thread.


----------



## deniseO30

Oh... reading back.. was there air in the water heater coil Jim?


----------



## jimgo

At this point, I don't know Denise. I need to get in there and figure out what's going on. The HWH isn't a huge priority right now, though the idea of motor sailing to NJ without being able to take a warm shower isn't exactly thrilling for me.


----------



## Sixpak

This has been an extremely informative thread. As a complete novice to the world of sailing and a potential boat owner in the "nearish" future, this thread has been quite informative.

Like others have pointed out, I really like that Jim has kept us all in the loop as progress and decisions have been made. Thanks Jim!


----------



## chucklesR

Jim, 
We use a solarshower (3 gallon) for hot showers. The water that comes out of my hot water heater is WAY to hot to shower with, and too hard to adust/mix down to bearable.


----------



## jimgo

Thanks Chuck. I picked one of those up a few weeks ago, before I knew about the hot water heater issue. My only issue is timing - I like to shower in the morning, and I'm afraid the water won't be warm enough.

Yeah, I know, "first world problems".


----------



## MedSailor

jimgo said:


> Thanks Chuck. I picked one of those up a few weeks ago, before I knew about the hot water heater issue. My only issue is timing - I like to shower in the morning, and I'm afraid the water won't be warm enough.
> 
> Yeah, I know, "first world problems".


I sail in the PNW where there is no sun. A half kettle of boiling water added to partially full sun shower is just the trick. Works particularly well if you have one of the sun sowers with a built in thermometer. I lay mine on deck and run the tube through a window into my head. This trick also works if you have a window above the galley. Presto! Gravity fed hot water over the sink!

MedSailor


----------



## jimgo

NICE idea! I'll have to think about the gravity-fed idea some more. I originally was just planning on bringing it into the head when it was shower time.

Sixpak, thanks for the affirmation. Sometimes I worry that I'm giving TMI and boring people. I'm glad it's useful to someone!


----------



## manatee

Keep it coming, Jim, you're not boring us. Your saga is nostalgia for some, a cautionary tale for others, but we're all rooting for you.

Fair winds.
Gary


----------



## Skipper Jer

Jim, its not boring, its foreshadowing for some.


----------



## jimgo

Captainmeme said:


> Jim, its not boring, its foreshadowing for some.


That literally made me laugh out loud, and simultaneously feel bad for those for whom it is foreshadowing!

Thank you both.


----------



## miatapaul

chef2sail said:


> Keep the thread till the fat lady sings and you get her home. Those who feel its enough can just pass by it. It has been a good thread.


Hey now, we all know the Allmand is known to be a bit "full in girth" but no need to name call! :laugher:laugher

I agree though Jim seems to have the best attitude about his "adventure" as anyone I have ever read!


----------



## chef2sail

miatapaul said:


> Hey now, we all know the Allmand is known to be a bit "full in girth" but no need to name call! :laugher:laugher
> 
> I agree though Jim seems to have the best attitude about his "adventure" as anyone I have ever read!


Having spoken with him on he phone as well as e mails. I agree. His positive attitude s truly there. He will have a great boat for himself and his family. I admire his perserverennce.

In the meantime he has gotten to know her inside out.


----------



## deniseO30

Hey every one, guess what? I met Jim the other day, he's surviving all this very well! I looked .. no dark cloud, no meteors about to hit.. nice man in person! Even if his car trunk has more boat stuff in it then my van has. Fair winds Jim! You've been a rock through this whole experience!


----------



## Windward1

By doing an outboard he can use the boat rather than chuck it. Use it in conditions and locations that is appropriate for the setup. Sell it for peanuts later, and skip the breakup/disposal chore/cost.


----------



## jimgo

Windward, thanks for the feedback. I wound up getting the engine repaired instead.

Denise, it was a pleasure meeting you. I'm sorry I couldn't have stayed to have lunch; I think it would have been a good time. Another time!


----------



## deniseO30

Oh Jim.. it' never crossed my mind..I'm sorry, I should have bought you lunch! Gad.. I'm rude in my old age!


----------



## jimgo

No worries! I really had to get back for my call, but it would have been nice to sit down and chat, rather than just milling about in the parking lot!


----------



## MedSailor

jimgo said:


> NICE idea! I'll have to think about the gravity-fed idea some more. I originally was just planning on bringing it into the head when it was shower time.


This usually doesn't work because, when hanging, the sun shower is a couple of feet tall. Unless you have a lot of head room, you'll only be washing from the waist down.

My head has a solar nicro vent thingy. They're nice to have to keep the head dry and keep the odor flowing out of the boat. The fan assembly pulls out of the roof easily, leaving a 6" hole. An ideal spot for the sun shower hose to go through. You can lay it on deck, or hang it from a halyard.

MedSailor


----------



## jimgo

I have a Beckson opening port in the head, and was wondering about creating a replacement "screen" that would let me keep the container on deck but run the hose into the head area.


----------



## MobiusALilBitTwisted

jimgo said:


> I have a Beckson opening port in the head, and was wondering about creating a replacement "screen" that would let me keep the container on deck but run the hose into the head area.


on the sun shower replace the hose with 8', drop the sun shower on the floor and step on it when you need to, don't like the water psi? step harder, i am sure she will hate it.


----------



## TakeFive

jimgo said:


> I have a Beckson opening port in the head, and was wondering about creating a replacement "screen" that would let me keep the container on deck but run the hose into the head area.


If it's anything like mine, the screens are removable. You might have to open the port, then pop it out from the outside.

The screen acts as a spacer, so needs to be in place to get a good seal on the closed port.


----------



## chef2sail

I thought you had a pressurized water system with H/C water. Is it the heater which is bad?.....that can be remedied for a couple hundred dollars.

Dave


----------



## jimgo

Dave, I do have a pressurized system with a HWH. But according to the marina, the heater may have been hooked up wrong and may have taken in salt water. They suggested pulling the heater and testing it before using it.


----------



## chef2sail

Ok,

There are two types of HWH. One type just runs off the engine coolant and requires no electricity. The other type has both and a heating coil. Why would they ever have salt water or outside water coming into the heater?


----------



## jimgo

As I understand the marina's interpretation of the way it had been configured, the raw water from the heat exchanger ran through the hot water heater and then out of the boat.


----------



## chef2sail

So after cooling the engine it was routed throught the water heater then to the mixing elbow then out?


----------



## jimgo

Something like that. It was in the middle of a very quick description of other issues they had found. I knew that I needed to do more research.


----------



## jimgo

We woke up this morning and checked the weather forecast (my wife and I both did it independently) and Rock Hall's forecast on WeatherBug looked good. So, we packed up the boys and headed down to the boat. Big mistake. It rained/threatened to rain the entire time we were there. On the positive side, the boys loved the boat. The really enjoyed the foredeck and the aft cabin (both of which were reasons why I pushed hard to for the Allmand). My wife had trouble getting past the head smell (Haven Harbour hadn't pumped out the holding tank), but she thought the new canvas looked nice, that the boat felt more comfortable than our C25, and that this Allmand was in much better shape than the one we had seen in NJ. I think that, had we actually gotten to leave the slip, it would have been a better trip.

With my wife's help, I did manage to hoist and furl the jib today which was nice. North Sails did a good job fixing it up and cleaning it for me. It went up the furler track without any major problems, which was great, and the furler seemed to move fairly smoothly, though I think the bearings could probably use some lubrication (they looked dry).

We were there a few hours, but it really didn't seem like we were there long at all, and I certainly didn't get anywhere near as much accomplished. But it was still nice to get everyone on the boat!


----------



## chef2sail

Sounds great. What kind of furler. What's a kiss head system


----------



## manatee

Take any family photos, or are you waiting to get her 'out there'?


----------



## Minnewaska

Is the holding tank in the head? If not, the smell would not be from failing to pump it. If it is, they're usually not a permeable material, so its probably the hoses that stink, or possibly leaking connections. Permeated hoses and bad connections never get better and your wife may always turn her nose up....

I would replace them. Lousy job, not terribly expensive, but is DIY. Most people do not take proper care of onboard waste systems and cause odor. They should not smell. If you start over, you can insure they never do. Get Peggy Hall's book Get Rid of Boat Odors. It's the bible. Your wife will thank you and you won't be on the receiving end of criticism when you just want to go cruising.

Get Rid of Boat Odors: A Boat Owners Guide to Marine Sanitation Systems and Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor: Peggie Hall: 9781892399151: Amazon.com: [email protected]@[email protected]@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/[email protected]@[email protected]@51c0oAGGw1L

Then get Raritan K.O., which I think she invented and sold them the rights.


----------



## Ajax_MD

jimgo said:


> <snip>
> With my wife's help, I did manage to hoist and furl the jib today which was nice. North Sails did a good job fixing it up and cleaning it for me. It went up the furler track without any major problems, which was great, and the furler seemed to move fairly smoothly, though *I think the bearings could probably use some lubrication (they looked dry).*


Whoa, hang on shipmate. Make sure you carefully RTFM on that one. Many furler bearings or indeed, bearings in marine blocks and hardware, do not want any kind of lubricant. You simply flush them out with fresh water. Petroleum distillates may damage the bearings.

If you absolutely insist on squirting something in there, contrary to the manual, I recommend Sailkote by McLube. That stuff is safe to spray on nearly anything and provides amazing reduction in friction.


----------



## jimgo

Bubbles, thanks for the warning. I wasn't going to do anything before pulling the manual and seeing what was recommended.


----------



## jimgo

manatee said:


> Take any family photos, or are you waiting to get her 'out there'?


No family photos yet. I'm waiting 'til we at least leave the dock!


----------



## manatee

No rush. Get her wrung out, get comfortable with her. We've been with you this long (in spirit), we will wait for you. Have fun!


----------



## jimgo

I'm shooting for leaving Rock Hall on Aug. 18. Can't promise the HWH will be working. Anyone want to go along on what I hope will be a more sedate trip than Rock Dawg's?


----------



## chef2sail

BubbleheadMd said:


> Whoa, hang on shipmate. Make sure you carefully RTFM on that one. Many furler bearings or indeed, bearings in marine blocks and hardware, do not want any kind of lubricant. You simply flush them out with fresh water. Petroleum distillates may damage the bearings.
> 
> If you absolutely insist on squirting something in there, contrary to the manual, I recommend Sailkote by McLube. That stuff is safe to spray on nearly anything and provides amazing reduction in friction.


Is why I asked what kind of furling system. Some of the older ones like Good/ Profurl do have the bearings packed in a sealed lubricated area and do need to be repacked and sealed after time. It is a pain in the ass job with the little balls falling everywhere. They also get flat spotted after time. ( ask me how I know). Is why I went with the Harken when I replaced it.

My newer Harken !V just requires a good fresh water rinsing. What kind of furler system is it


----------



## chef2sail

Minnewaska said:


> Is the holding tank in the head? If not, the smell would not be from failing to pump it. If it is, they're usually not a permeable material, so its probably the hoses that stink, or possibly leaking connections. Permeated hoses and bad connections never get better and your wife may always turn her nose up....
> 
> I would replace them. Lousy job, not terribly expensive, but is DIY. Most people do not take proper care of onboard waste systems and cause odor. They should not smell. If you start over, you can insure they never do. Get Peggy Hall's book Get Rid of Boat Odors. It's the bible. Your wife will thank you and you won't be on the receiving end of criticism when you just want to go cruising.
> 
> Get Rid of Boat Odors: A Boat Owners Guide to Marine Sanitation Systems and Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor: Peggie Hall: 9781892399151: Amazon.com: Books
> 
> Then get Raritan K.O., which I think she invented and sold them the rights.


Minnie recommendation is spot on. Use the Trident green stripe sanitation hose ( comes in black and white). It is far superior to almost everything else.

I spent today putting another hole in Haleakulas hull. It was for a second holding tank vent. I put a 1 inch one right under the Rub rail and put drilled a new fitting into the holding tank ( it was gross, stunk and was done quickly)
I did this to give better aeration to the holding tank. The original C&C spec was a 1/2 inch vent hose. Just didn't seem to be enough. We didn't have a smell, but when it reached the 1/2 full point ( 12 gallons) to much pressure on the toilet handle IMHO. Now its a breeze. Peggy says the more aeration the better


----------



## jimgo

I bought her book and am working my way through it. Once the head is pumped out, I plan on rebuilding the head and replacing the hoses. Since I was going that far, I was planning on removing the macerateor pump and related hoses. I don't expect to be in a position to do overboard dumps any time soon, and the pump takes up some prime real estate. I also need to make sure the vent isn't clogged. I looked for it a few weeks ago, but didn't see it. I was perusing my online photos the other day and saw where it is, so that's a good start!

Regarding the furler, I am not sure of the brand. It uses a track with two slots (though the sail only goes in one of them) and the furling line wraps inside an enclosed drum. The job halyard attaches to a car that rides up the track and the head of the job is attached to the car. The car serves as the swivel. There is a picture of the furler in my gallery, but I can't link to it (typing on my phone).


----------



## chef2sail

jimgo said:


> I bought her book and am working my way through it. Once the head is pumped out, I plan on rebuilding the head and replacing the hoses. Since I was going that far, I was planning on removing the macerateor pump and related hoses. I don't expect to be in a position to do overboard dumps any time soon, and the pump takes up some prime real estate. I also need to make sure the vent isn't clogged. I looked for it a few weeks ago, but didn't see it. I was perusing my online photos the other day and saw where it is, so that's a good start!
> 
> Regarding the furler, I am not sure of the brand. It uses a track with two slots (though the sail only goes in one of them) and the furling line wraps inside an enclosed drum. The job halyard attaches to a car that rides up the track and the head of the job is attached to the car. The car serves as the swivel. There is a picture of the furler in my gallery, but I can't link to it (typing on my phone).


Think about that since you are close to the ocean, and I can forsee ocean trips for you in the future in the Ocean . It's way easy to dump once out three miles. Nice to have the option. All it is is a y valve and either hand or mascerator pump. Can be a ***** if you re offshore looking for a pump out and I'd hate to come in an inlet just or that if I was full.

For someone inland I can understand. But a small pump and one hose to a thru hull isn't a big deal. Especially if its there already.

Jut think about it.

Dave


----------



## jimgo

You'll have to come see our set-up, Dave. We lose almost an entire locker under our starboard settee due to the pump.


----------



## jimgo

BTW, wasn't discounting the advice. Just thinking that it wouldn't be hard to put it back in in the future, and at this point we're probably going to be staying in the Bay at least into 2015. I expect/hope to be pumping out regularly, too.

But your point about "emergency" situations is well made.


----------



## chef2sail

jimgo said:


> BTW, wasn't discounting the advice. Just thinking that it wouldn't be hard to put it back in in the future, and at this point we're probably going to be staying in the Bay at least into 2015. I expect/hope to be pumping out regularly, too.
> 
> But your point about "emergency" situations is well made.


Can you leave the Y in then, to make it easier in case you decide a different place to put the pump at a layer date, then youll only have to add hose and pimp. Where's the holding tank located? How large is it?

I understand the room thing. I've seen that when everything is in the head especially. That's always an important factor and every boat is different. We lived without a mascerator for 4 years. Once we started traveling, offshore it was a no brainier, and all off our stuff, including the holding tank is under the v berth where there is a ton of room.

The y is located after the holding tank.one branch to the deck pump out, the other to the mascerator and thru hull.


----------



## jimgo

We have a u-shaped dinette on the port side, and the holding tank is under the forward portion of the "U", immediately next to the head. The thru-hull for the raw water is on the port side, and eats up space too.


----------



## jimgo

In thinking about it more, I don't think I can do the KISS holding tank arrangement because my tank is below, or nearly below, the waterline. 

I'd love to order the hose so I could have it for this weekend, but I have no idea how much I need, and at $7.50/foot, I don't want to over-order by too much!


----------



## CalebD

Minnewaska said:


> Is the holding tank in the head? If not, the smell would not be from failing to pump it. If it is, they're usually not a permeable material, so its probably the hoses that stink, or possibly leaking connections. Permeated hoses and bad connections never get better and your wife may always turn her nose up....
> 
> I would replace them. Lousy job, not terribly expensive, but is DIY. Most people do not take proper care of onboard waste systems and cause odor. They should not smell. If you start over, you can insure they never do. Get Peggy Hall's book Get Rid of Boat Odors. It's the bible. Your wife will thank you and you won't be on the receiving end of criticism when you just want to go cruising.
> 
> Get Rid of Boat Odors: A Boat Owners Guide to Marine Sanitation Systems and Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor: Peggie Hall: 9781892399151: Amazon.com: Books
> 
> Then get Raritan K.O., which I think she invented and sold them the rights.


+2 or 3 on the Peggy Hall book. She was the ultimate Head Mistress after all.

I did not know that she invented the formula for KO? I swear by K.O.
Somewhere in her book(let) she suggests that wiping down inside your lockers & hoses with K.O. will help "kill odors", which is what the "KO" stands for. Perhaps you could use the gallon size container for wiping down your inside cabin surfaces as well as head tank treatment?


----------



## chucklesR

I"m tied up the 18th, which is a bummer.


----------



## deniseO30

_"sniff, sniff" wass dat smell? Looks around... "oh the winds a blowing up from the chessy" _

(goes back to her rock and hides)


----------



## Ajax_MD

deniseO30 said:


> _"sniff, sniff" wass dat smell? Looks around... "oh the winds a blowing up from the chessy" _
> 
> (goes back to her rock and hides)


The Chessie only smells that way, because PA treats it like their own, personal toilet bowl via the Conowingo dam. It must be nice to live "upstream".


----------



## deniseO30

here it all flushes down to Delaware Bay. the Susquehanna is the bad guy not me!


----------



## jimgo

Bubble, I think Denise was referring to my boat, not the entire Chesse!


----------



## jimgo

For those still following this thread, Dragon Wing is in her new slip. We left Rock Hall on Sunday, spent the night in shallow water behind Reedy Island in the Delaware, and then headed to Cape May on Monday. We made the trip from Utsch's to Forked River today.

Thank you all VERY much for all the encouragement, good wishes, and helpful advice. The trip went off without a hitch, and I give y'all a lot of the credit.


----------



## manatee

Congatulations, Jim!
Welcome home! 
I'm glad you stuck it out, even in the dark times. May you have many happy voyages together.

It would be a *very good thing* if the mods would make this thread a sticky, to be an inspiration for others who find themselves in circumstances similar to what you started with.

Well Done!
Gary


----------



## chef2sail

The saga ends and the story begins...Good luck with her Jim.


----------



## ottos

Congrats Jim! Welcome to South Jersey! (or welcome back...)


----------



## Cap'n Russ

Congrats, Jim! May you two have many happy seasons together!


----------



## jimgo

To close out this thread, again, thank you all VERY much for all that you've done. I especially want to thank Dave (Chef2Sail) for his encouragement here and behind the scenes, and Chuck (ChucklesR) for the initial use of his slip. Dave gets an extra shout-out, though, because it was he who urged me to get the dodger done before heading out for this trip. While I'm sure we could have gotten by without the dodger, it was a huge help the first day when it rained for part of the trip. My cousin and I traded off hiding in the shelter of the dodger while the other person steered. For anyone interested in reading more about the trip, I tried to do a semi-"live blog" of the trip in my blog.


----------



## Aver

Sorry to hear that Jim. Give it a couple of days and look at the situation with a fresh mind.

I hope you figure it out!


----------



## katsailor

Aver said:


> Sorry to hear that Jim. Give it a couple of days and look at the situation with a fresh mind.
> 
> I hope you figure it out!


----------



## arf145

Great to hear you're on your way now, Jimgo! Apparently you _were_ meant to have a boat!


----------



## ericirvine

Hey Jim,

I know you have tried to close this thread a few times, but thought I would chip in my $0.02 worth.

I have the same engine as you, the 5416, fitted to my Bristol 29.9. I recently did a complete rebuild and overhaul of the entire engine, (but not the transmission), replacing or refurbishing every component that showed signs of wear (or in the case of my engine, damage).

I wanted to pass along two things:

These are old but simple, solid engines that can be rebuilt by anyone with just a bit of mechanical inclination (I had never touched a diesel before), and parts are readily available from Kubota dealers and online Kubota sources at reasonable prices.

There is at least one weakness I know about - the raw water pump. If the seals on this pump fail, raw water will be admitted to the crankcase. This is invariably not a good thing.......

I'm not a mechanic or anything like one, but if I can be of any assistance with details on the engine or parts, don't hesitate to ask. Sorry I don't live in your neighborhood, or I could help in person.

Eric Irvine
S/V Selkie
1980 Bristol 29.9


----------



## jimgo

Eric, thanks a lot! I appreciate that. We essentially rebuilt the back half of the engine. I hope to get at least a few years on her before I do the front half! At least for that part I shouldn't have to pull the engine completely out of the boat.

How long did the rebuild take? Did you keep a full list of the parts you used? It might be a good separate thread here.


----------



## ericirvine

Jim,

Didn't keep a real close track on time, 'bout 2 weekends to dismantle (down to last nut and bolt). About the same to reassemble. 

Machine shop cleaned block, head etc and did all the grinding, pressing etc. I basically just did the teardown and reassemble.

Wok done was somehting like this this: Flushed out oil passageways and replaced block plugs; skimmed head and block faces; replaced all bearings, seals, gaskets; re-sleeved cylinders; new pistons & rings; cut out valves seats and replaced seats, valves, guides and seals; reground crank and fitted new bearings; new injector pump and injectors; new injector camshaft bearings and seals; new governor internals and refurbished rest of governor; rebuilt alternator and starter; new engine mounts. Phew.

Engine runs great now.

I have Kubota part numbers for everything in a spreadsheet. Glad to share that or anything else I can help with.

Eric
S/V Selkie
1980 Bristol 29.9


----------



## davidpm

Just re-read the whole thread.
Did I miss it?
Did anyone mention what the yard bill ended up being.
We have a pool going here and need to know who wins.


----------



## jimgo

David, I did list it somewhere, but apparently not in this thread. It's over here:
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/1085018-post13.html

The full thread is here:
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gener...3378-diesel-engine-surveys-2.html#post1085018


----------



## davidpm

jimgo said:


> David, I did list it somewhere, but apparently not in this thread. It's over here:
> http://www.sailnet.com/forums/1085018-post13.html
> 
> The full thread is here:
> http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gener...3378-diesel-engine-surveys-2.html#post1085018


Thanks for reminding me.

It might be my imagination but it seems like a good rule of thumb is that often the labor amount is some good multiplier of the material. 
Something like material times 1.5 or thereabouts.

I can just imagine how pleased you are to open the engine hatch and see a freshly painted engine and machine room.
Must be very nice.
Congratulations on sticking it through.

I'm recently interested because of my friends Almond 31 I've been sailing the last few weeks.


----------



## jimgo

I think your laboar/material calculations are roughly what I've seen used in other industries, too.

As to how happy I am about the engine, yeah, it's nice to know that it should be in good shape for a while. Now if only my wife enjoyed seeing the clean engine compartment and freshly painted engine... 

If you or Charlie have questions, I'm happy to try to answer any that I can. Have you and he seen Allmand Sail Dedicated to bringing Allmand owners together and the Allmand Owner's group on Google Groups? I personally hate the user interface of the Google Group, but the people there are fairly responsive (very little activity though) and the documents section has a lot of good information. If you're ever down in NJ, let me know and I'll take you out on our boat. It would be interesting to get your take on the differences between the boats.


----------

