# Schock 35



## Discoverer

I've recently bought Schock 35, she has shoal draft and PHRF of 88. The plans are to use her extensively in various regattas, but after the few races I felt she is not fully performed to her ability, I would say PHRF 140-150, as she can barely keep up with J-30. 
Any suggestions, comments and advices will be much appreciated.


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## puddinlegs

Oh my... that's not good... It could be a number of things. Not knowing your previous experience, it's a bit tough, but first off, I'd say condition of foils (sails, keel, and rudder). Is the prop folding properly? What point of sail are you having the most trouble with? If it's upwind and all of the above are good, the next culprit might be rig tune. Then again, it could be poor sail trim, or bad driving...no offense, there's just not enough background info.
Tell us more specifically when you're having trouble with boat speed or sailing angles, there might be a more accurate diagnosis.

I'd also check here:

Schock 35 Racing News

and ask for tuning information.


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## JohnRPollard

We raced the NY 36 against a Schock 35 fairly often in club racing on the Chesapeake. 

They are very similar hulls, both built by W.D. Schock. I'm not sure if the NY 36 was a derivative hull, or a tweak, or truly a different design. But the NY 36 had a much taller, fractional rig.

The Schock 35 was much lower rated than us (we were PHRF 114 at the time), but I seem to recall beating it routinely, as well as a bit of grousing about the disparate ratings.

How old are your sails? These boats generally need trim racing sails to do well. Old cruising sails, or even tired racing sails, would really give you a big hit. 

You should be able to easily beat a J-30 boat for boat (in theory, the handicap rating should even that out so you'd be pretty close corrected).

I would recommend getting someone knowledgeable to come out and sail with you for a race or two. If new sails are possibly in the budget, a reputable sailmaker would be a good choice. The sailmaker could help you identify what the issues are and help prioritize which sails should be replaced.

Be forewarned, these boats carry large sail inventories in order to race competitively. Minimum 3 headsails, two spinnakers (preferably 3). It can add up.


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## COOL

I would have to guess the single most detrimental factor
to your performance is the shoal draft keel. There is no 
substitute for deep draft in a race boat. Schock 35s are
powered up machines, that typically do well in light air venues,
and they need all the righting moment they can muster.
Your rating sounds a little harsh, but the boat should 
still out perform a J30.
What conditions do you typically sail in?


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## Discoverer

puddinlegs said:


> Oh my... that's not good... It could be a number of things. Not knowing your previous experience, it's a bit tough, but first off, I'd say condition of foils (sails, keel, and rudder). Is the prop folding properly? What point of sail are you having the most trouble with? If it's upwind and all of the above are good, the next culprit might be rig tune. Then again, it could be poor sail trim, or bad driving...no offense, there's just not enough background info.
> Tell us more specifically when you're having trouble with boat speed or sailing angles, there might be a more accurate diagnosis.
> 
> I'd also check here:
> 
> Schock 35 Racing News
> 
> and ask for tuning information.


Keel and rudder are both alright, but sails are really tired. Most noticeable in the light air, especially downwind. Spinnaker is 0.5 of the good size When the wind pick up to 17-20 kts, she behaves much better compare to the other boats.


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## Discoverer

JohnRPollard said:


> We raced the NY 36 against a Schock 35 fairly often in club racing on the Chesapeake.
> 
> They are very similar hulls, both built by W.D. Schock. I'm not sure if the NY 36 was a derivative hull, or a tweak, or truly a different design. But the NY 36 had a much taller, fractional rig.
> 
> The Schock 35 was much lower rated than us (we were PHRF 114 at the time), but I seem to recall beating it routinely, as well as a bit of grousing about the disparate ratings.
> 
> How old are your sails? These boats generally need trim racing sails to do well. Old cruising sails, or even tired racing sails, would really give you a big hit.
> 
> You should be able to easily beat a J-30 boat for boat (in theory, the handicap rating should even that out so you'd be pretty close corrected).
> 
> I would recommend getting someone knowledgeable to come out and sail with you for a race or two. If new sails are possibly in the budget, a reputable sailmaker would be a good choice. The sailmaker could help you identify what the issues are and help prioritize which sails should be replaced.
> 
> Be forewarned, these boats carry large sail inventories in order to race competitively. Minimum 3 headsails, two spinnakers (preferably 3). It can add up.


Main and genoa are both old. Sails inventory include two #1, 2, 3, storm jib, two mains, light and heavy spinnakers. Almost all sails are tired, storm jib seems unused . I had a jib furler when I bought her, which is removed now. No doubt new sails will add some spice, but even with old sails she should be much faster. I am planning to check the shrouds and stays tension as it can really effect her speed. Couldn't find the right numbers though ...


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## Discoverer

COOL said:


> I would have to guess the single most detrimental factor
> to your performance is the shoal draft keel. There is no
> substitute for deep draft in a race boat. Schock 35s are
> powered up machines, that typically do well in light air venues,
> and they need all the righting moment they can muster.
> Your rating sounds a little harsh, but the boat should
> still out perform a J30.
> What conditions do you typically sail in?


The PHRF handicapper gave me 3 points for the shoal keel, so in THEORY it shouldn't be that bad, should it? 
I race mostly in light air and it seems she has lots of issues in these conditions. As soon as it starts blowing she powers up and beats many competitors.


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## Sanduskysailor

Having raced on and against Shock 35s for years I can assure you that the standard S35 is a PHRF killer in light air. Obviously you need a good bottom, and good sails to make the boat go. The S35 is devastating in light air and chop. You need the right mast tune and proper set up of the backstay and and runners (checkstays really). Also you need a minimum of 8 crew and better yet 10 crew if the the wind is up.

In medium air the J-35 is faster and heavier air they are about equal. I'm not sure about 3 seconds/mile for a shoal keel. Sounds like not enough depending on the keel design. How is it different from the standard keel?

If you are boat for boat with a J-30 in light air, you have got some other problems. J-30s aren't exactly rocket ships in light air. Suggest you find a professional to help you sort the boat out. You will have a lot more fun when you do.


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## jarcher

When you say the sails are tired, how tired? Look to see where the draft is on all the sails. Usually, you can expect older sails to lose their shape in heavier air and still be okay in lighter air, unless they are very tired. 

If you get a good sailmaker to come for a sail, he or she will be able to tell you. Or you can photograph the sails. Shoot them from the foot up so the draft stripes are clearly visible.


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## CliffRuckstuhl

Boat Prep is key in any kind of racing. It just kills me when some one post about not going fast and getting killed on the race course and then you find out sometimes 10 post later that the boat has old sail's and a 40 grit bottom( not saying you have a bad bottom). The biggest killer in not doing well is boat prep, if you want to be in the front of the pack then 75% of it happens before the boat even get's wet. If your budget does not allow for new sail's then you must accept finishing mid fleet. A smooth bottom of 400 is also key for light air, I can assure you my J 29 has the smooth bottom and I am faster then the J 30 and in light air a rough bottom is a speed killer. Best place to start is the Schock 35 class get on another boat and see how it is set up clean the bottom before every race and budget for new sail's. If the boat came this way then it must have not been raced for along time and you should have gotten a good deal on it. J 35, Schock 35 and such are $45K boats sometimes you just havent spent the full $45K when you buy it that comes later. Also on this forum I say it is a more cruiser forum than race there are other forums that are more race then cruise. I would also question the 3 seconds for the shoal keel I would think it should be more.

Cliff J 29 Turbo Turtle


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## CBinRI

Discoverer said:


> The PHRF handicapper gave me 3 points for the shoal keel, so in THEORY it shouldn't be that bad, should it?
> I race mostly in light air and it seems she has lots of issues in these conditions. As soon as it starts blowing she powers up and beats many competitors.


I would think that a shoal keel would make a lot more than 3 points worth of difference. Just my two cents. I would guess that it is the chief contributor to difficulty sailing to your rating.


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## jarcher

CBinRI said:


> I would think that a shoal keel would make a lot more than 3 points worth of difference. Just my two cents. I would guess that it is the chief contributor to difficulty sailing to your rating.


Forgive my ignorance about this type of boat, but why don't thy all have the same type of keel?


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## blt2ski

I'm surprised there is not more than 3 secs. Altho looking at a US Sailing PHRF hi-lo-ave chart, the ave is 75 for a std keel, the wing keel is 78, with lows of 66 for the std, and 78 for the WK. This 12 sec difference seems more in line with "MOST" boats were a deeper fin and a shoal fin are used. On my boat, a Jeanneau Arcadia, there is 9 secs credit IIRC for a shoal, and 12 for a CB version vs my std fin keel.

The low for you boat, not sure I believe it, is std at 120, WK at 81. That 120 seems like a gift to me. 

Locally in Puget sound, there is a level 72 class, which includes J35's, S35's and Express 37's as I recall. 

BUT, as mentioned, some of the issues may be the sails, rig tune, "YOUR" ability to skipper, crew doing there jobs, non clean bottom. I got .5-.7 knots the other day having a diver clean my bottom! Look at ALL of the above issues that I mentioned, which are repeats of others above me.

Marty


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## sailingfool

I think some boats just have very narrow tuning groves and you need to everything just right or the boat's a dog. I knew a fellow who moved from a C&C 30 in which he was very competitive to a Peterson 34, in which he couldn't get out of his own way. Often he'd be passed by many of the slower boats with a later start. 

After one season, he moved onto a different boat and got back into his groove.


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## puddinlegs

If your boat's sailing to it's rating in heavier air with old sails, but not in light air, there's something wrong with sail trim and driving. Over trimmed boats are just deadly slow in light air. 

The best piece of advice above? Find someone who's been successful in the class and have them over for a look and a sail. I'm sure they'll be able to point you in the right direction. As an anecdote, there was a lovely and fast late production J-35 in the area. Well prepped, new sails, etc... Did a couple of races with them. In the end, if you over stand every windward mark, don't quite understand downwind helming, and don't share the helm on a long day, no matter how fast the boat should be, you won't. The owner was convinced the boat was slow and finally sold it. If I had my heart set on a J-35, I'd have bought it in a heartbeat.


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## puddinlegs

jarcher said:


> Forgive my ignorance about this type of boat, but why don't thy all have the same type of keel?


Marketing.


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## CliffRuckstuhl

Shoal draft for thin water, I looked into Schock 35's and J 35's after I sold my much loved J 29. Because of the draft (close to 7 feet) my docking would have went from $900.00 to $3800.00 for the summer and another $1K for the winter. I bought another J 29 and a new trailer and now have free winter storage at home.

Cliff J 29 Turbo Turtle


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## Discoverer

blt2ski said:


> I'm surprised there is not more than 3 secs. Altho looking at a US Sailing PHRF hi-lo-ave chart, the ave is 75 for a std keel, the wing keel is 78, with lows of 66 for the std, and 78 for the WK. This 12 sec difference seems more in line with "MOST" boats were a deeper fin and a shoal fin are used. On my boat, a Jeanneau Arcadia, there is 9 secs credit IIRC for a shoal, and 12 for a CB version vs my std fin keel.
> 
> The low for you boat, not sure I believe it, is std at 120, WK at 81. That 120 seems like a gift to me.
> 
> Locally in Puget sound, there is a level 72 class, which includes J35's, S35's and Express 37's as I recall.
> 
> BUT, as mentioned, some of the issues may be the sails, rig tune, "YOUR" ability to skipper, crew doing there jobs, non clean bottom. I got .5-.7 knots the other day having a diver clean my bottom! Look at ALL of the above issues that I mentioned, which are repeats of others above me.
> 
> Marty


Marty, What is "US Sailing PHRF hi-lo-ave chart". I've never heard that before.


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## sailingdog

US Sailing, which governs most recreational racing in the USA. The PHRF numbers are the handicapping numbers for a boat. The High Low Average chart is a list of the various boats and what their HIGH, LOW and AVERAGE PHRF numbers are. The numbers vary by locale, so there is some range on them.



Discoverer said:


> Marty, What is "US Sailing PHRF hi-lo-ave chart". I've never heard that before.


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## blt2ski

http://www.ussailing.org/phrf/Tool_ HI_LO_AVG Report Oct 21 2008.pdf

There is the link I have saved, I recall there is a newer version, but for the most part, other than the thru ________ date, the numbers appeared to be the same.

As Dog mentioned, it just shows the range a given boat has ratings for thru out the US/Canada, from the lowest/fastest ratings, to the highest/slowest rating, along with an ave for all the reporting divisions. Some locals have base rating links on there webpages too such as this one from PHRF-NewEngland which has been updated as of jan 10, 2010.
PHRF New England - Handicapping - Base Handicaps

I've seen one for a group on one of the great lakes too.

Marty


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## afterschock

The S35 should easlily beat a J30 straight up even with the shoal keel.

How did you prepare the bottom and what type of paint did you use?

These boats can be tender. Crew/weight positioning is really important and has to change with given wind conditions. Playing the backstay is really important too.

Dave Ullman wrote a tuning guide some time ago. It used to be on the Ullman Sails website or on the S35 class association's site. That guide is a good baseline for getting your boat tweaked. 

The shoal keel will kill you though. You will have a tough time getting upwind competitively. 

Where are you sailing the boat? What other types of boats are you up against?


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## MrDoug

A well sailed J30 is pretty awesome, but even a poorly sailed Schock-35 ought to take its lunch money. Your sails are definitely the culprit.

See if you can get an experienced racer to go out with you next time. You'll be amazed what your boat can do in 2-3 hours with a guy that knows what he is doing.


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## MrDoug

A Schock 35 should rate at 72...and be tough to beat in light air. I race on a J/35 that has issues with the Schocks when the air is light, and the sea is choppy. Heavy air, and we take their lunch-money, but if it's light...look out.

There HAS to be something up if you aren't able to beat a J/30. Even a poorly sailed S35 should be able to beat an expertly sailed J/30.


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## mikehoyt

A couple of thoughts.

1. I see only Schock 35 and Schock 35 WK variations on the lists we use. I am guessing you have the Wing Keel rather than shoal keel version. If you do not have the wing keel or the standard keel than I would guess is a custom mod. Not sure how that would affect performance

2. I only have access to the 2004 US Sailing book as I had loaned out my 2009 version. However in there the Shock 35 WK rates 6 sec slower in three areas than the regular version in those same three areas. In a fourth area is 9 sec.

3. 88 seems to be a very generous handicap for this boat. The wing keel version tends to be in the 78-81 range most places.

4. What all of the above have said.
i. race boats are difficult to sail to their potential for a new to boat sailor esp compared to cruising boats.
ii. bad bottom prep is slow
iii. old sails are slow
iv. -> this is the cheap one <- bad rig tune is very slow
v. learning curve tougher on most race designed boats

Our J/27 is now in our third year with the boat. Last year we bought new #1 and new main. They never quite seemed right. We measured the rig and found forestay short - added a 2 inch toggle for this year and tuned according to J Boats guide and is like a new boat. Also long board sanded an already smooth bottom, faired the keel and applied and wet sanded VC Offshore. Boat performs much better than last year and we have had very good sailors on board the last three years so it was not them. The longer forestay was the key - boat points higher and goes faster to wind with #1 and with blade. Same driver and crew.

After all the work we did and after new #1, main, spin and after 3 years we are only now hitting the target speeds that are published for the boat.

Stick with it. It is very rewarding.

Oh - and we now have spent twice as much on the boat AFTER WE BOUGHT IT as we paid for its initial Purchase.

Mike
Nut Case
J/27 #150
J27 #150


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## sailingfool

Discoverer said:


> The PHRF handicapper gave me 3 points for the shoal keel, so in THEORY it shouldn't be that bad, should it?
> I race mostly in light air and it seems she has lots of issues in these conditions. As soon as it starts blowing she powers up and beats many competitors.


My personal experience is that PHRF adjustments for speed-killers dont adjust performance for how slow the boat iactually is, except for the roller furling adjustment. That 3 or 6 or even 9 seconds for a short keel is never going to make up for the performance benefits of a deep keel, nor does a 6 second credit come close to adjusting for a fixed prop.

You see this in the boats that the serious racers use...the guys who make a science out of the rule-beating. You wont see any short keels, fixed props or other credits, except the near universal RF, but you'll see lots of debit adjustments for taller masts, bigger poles, etc. Fast jsut works out better overall...


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## VampireJ30

Ok Ok enough of the J30 bashing 

"You should be able to easily beat a J-30 boat for boat”
" J-30s aren't exactly rocket ships in light air"
And my favorite!
"A well sailed J30 is pretty awesome, but even a poorly sailed Schock-35 ought to take its lunch money"
Come on big boy! Come and get it. I am the J30 sailor in question and unfortunately he is comparing himself to a boat that I would like to say is well sailed and well prepared. 
Vampire has the latest sails good crew and we have allot of experience.
I have been racing for over 20 years and often beat J35s Ex37s and even well sailed S35s. And I’m not the only one. Just check out the axe murder from Friction Loss in the Pac cup this year. That J30 beat a J120!
And this Schock has suffered especially bad as Radiant heat has finished 1/2 hour ahead of her on a 24 hour race before corrected!
So now that I have established that he is not driving in reverse because he has chosen to compare himself to a consistent podium boat lets get back to the main issue.
The S35 in question has old sails But he is working on it.
His crew needs work. Crew errors are common but this too is improving.
And it is never good to sail past the mark with the spin still up. 
And I hate to say it but you often sail out into the current while the leaders in the fleet dig deep into the beach on heavy current days. 
And the last thing is "you wander" I don’t let my eyes leave the telltales but My tactician is always telling me that you are not trimmed and then not driving to the sail.

You’re still learning the boat. Stick with her. She has legs as you seen on the upwind leg at patos. But I think you have another year at least till you break into the top three. 
First work on crew drills.
2-lengthen that forestay some more.
3-make your crew earn new sails. When they can trim well then give them the good stuff.
You know I replace one sail a year to spread out the costs.
And keep doing what you’re doing. Get out there and sail. Ask the hard questions. No one will turn you away as we only want you faster.
Please be patient. We didn’t fall out of our mothers sailing. We had to have some milk first. Ok blood for me.

As for J29s 
There are two of these in our club and normally they follow me around the marks! This old girl has legs. And she is #18 of over 500 made. If they made that many there must be some one out there learning there boat you could take there lunch money from!
cool:


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## JohnRPollard

VampireJ30 said:


> Ok Ok enough of the J30 bashing
> 
> "You should be able to easily beat a J-30 boat for boat"
> " J-30s aren't exactly rocket ships in light air"
> And my favorite!
> "A well sailed J30 is pretty awesome, but even a poorly sailed Schock-35 ought to take its lunch money"
> Come on big boy! Come and get it. I am the J30 sailor in question and unfortunately he is comparing himself to a boat that I would like to say is well sailed and well prepared....


Are you suggesting you would be happy to compete against Schock 35s with a level rating?

Yours may be a well-sailed J30, but an equally well-sailed Schock 35 should beat you boat for boat quite handily. In theory, applying the handicap to the J30 elapsed time will nearly equalize the result.


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## VampireJ30

Ok I'm not quite that cocky that I think I can beat a Shock 35 boat for boat every day. But in this case I can and with certainty with the difficulty this boat is having learning the boat.
your Rite that the ratings should equal things out but PHRF is not perfect as we know. But I have Beat Shock 35s ( that I consider sailed well) and J35s and even express 37s boat for boat and even passed a MUM 30 last year in the N100,
But normally I correct over them. I'm just saying it is not a given that you will beat a J30 on Race day. 30years old now and This girl still turns heads.

And as a side line I actually like the Shock 35 as I was looking at buying Ian's "fancy Free" here in Vancouver. Nice boat and Fast. Although I have beat him in races. Wife wants more room!


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## puddinlegs

VampireJ30 said:


> Ok I'm not quite that cocky that I think I can beat a Shock 35 boat for boat every day. But in this case I can and with certainty with the difficulty this boat is having learning the boat.
> your Rite that the ratings should equal things out but PHRF is not perfect as we know. But I have Beat Shock 35s ( that I consider sailed well) and J35s and even express 37s boat for boat and even passed a MUM 30 last year in the N100,
> But normally I correct over them. I'm just saying it is not a given that you will beat a J30 on Race day. 30years old now and This girl still turns heads.
> 
> And as a side line I actually like the Shock 35 as I was looking at buying Ian's "fancy Free" here in Vancouver. Nice boat and Fast. Although I have beat him in races. Wife wants more room!
> 
> ...As for J29s
> There are two of these in our club and normally they follow me around the marks! This old girl has legs. And she is #18 of over 500 made. If they made that many there must be some one out there learning there boat you could take there lunch money from!
> cool:


You know, if you've beaten an Express 37 boat for boat, even if you're the J30 world champ, there's something VERY wrong with the 37... maybe a filthy bottom, poor sails, or an exceptionally poorly sailed E-37. Either that, or you've simply lucked out during a drifter/crapshoot. The same for the J35 and even more so for the Mumm 30. We've sailed downwind with a Mumm 30, a J109, and a Farr 39 in a drifter downwind in our 99 rated boat. We traded gybes for the better part of an hour. We've also gone a long way upwind with a well sailed 109 in very light air. The boats mentioned above rate 40, 69, and 18 respectively. Even so, I'd never lay claim to realistically staying with these boat in 99.89% (99.999% for the Farr 39) of all the conditions we'd typically see during an average race. Yes, we've even beaten Express 37's boat for boat on occassion, but they were being sailed by new owners/racers who really didn't have the boat dialed in, so I'm not going to be boasting about it or claim our boat is faster. All things being equal, it just doesn't happen in normal circumstances, and it isn't. Hmmmm... There used to be 3 J-29's raced in Vancouver. 1 was well sailed and had a good inventory but has since sold. The other two had very tired sail inventories, hadn't been sailed for years by their owners and crews, and the owner of one was living aboard. Again, not a performance comparison I'd make.

All that said, nothing wrong with a J-30 at all and more power to you if you're doing well. As you mention, when prepped and well sailed they'll do very well in PHRF and provide a lot of bang for the buck, but the boat for boat speed comparisons that you allude to are oddities at best even if your last name where "MacDonald".


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## Dbltime

My .02 and first post, yea...
I have a 1981 New York 36 that I raced a intermittently over the last 4 years. Middle of the pack.
Last race I invited a rock star of whom only races to win. He changes everything he can change on the boat while en route to the start. He calls the shots... the boat is lightning fast under his command. Boat for boat passing boats that owe us 4-10 seconds. We still managed to make enough mitakes to finish in the back but the point being talent is key.


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