# Twin Keel sailboat?



## gonesailin40 (Sep 6, 2007)

I am considering buying a Westerly Centaur for some coastal cruising and an occasional trip out into the Mexican Gulf. I am not able to find any local knowledge here on the panhandle of Florida about this type of boat. Also my online search has produced little useful information. Does anyone here have any knowledge or experience with this type of vessel?

Thanks


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## mazzy (Mar 11, 2006)

Try UK Google for more UK-centric queries. There's one stored in the local boatyard. twin keels good for areas with large tides, boats rest easily on the bottom when tide's out. The one I saw has iron keels, the rust was very apparent.


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## gonesailin40 (Sep 6, 2007)

Looked around as you suggested mazzy and found some decent info, thanks. Not alot of info on sailing characteristics or stability. I guess the fact that the most positive things writen about them is the ability to beach them when the tide goes out answers many questions about them.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Here are some links to some info on twin keels:
Roll Attenuation and Bilge Keels
Why Twin Keels, by John Letcher -site by Nels Tomlinson
Bray Yacht Design and Research Ltd. - The Advantages of Twin Keels

I've owned two twin keel boats over the years. The first was a Westerly 25 built in 1967. The drag is increased and they can't point quite as well as a single keel boat. The second twin keel boat I owned was a 35" custom design that was bought from me by her designer and some changes made, most notably the change from single rudder to twin sailing rudders and a centreline rudder for powering. After these modifications she was sailed from Victoria to New Zealand and back by her designer and performed admirably. Quite an interesting boat in many respects. Here's a link to her listing as she is currently for sale:
Vela Yacht Sales (Victoria, BC)
Brian


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Here are some links to some info on twin keels:
Roll Attenuation and Bilge Keels
Why Twin Keels, by John Letcher -site by Nels Tomlinson
Bray Yacht Design and Research Ltd. - The Advantages of Twin Keels

I've owned two twin keel boats over the years. The first was a Westerly 25 built in 1967. The drag is increased and they can't point quite as well as a single keel boat, but overall a good boat. The second twin keel boat I owned was a 35" custom design that was bought from me by her designer and some changes made, most notably the change from single rudder to twin sailing rudders and a centreline rudder for powering. After these modifications she was sailed from Victoria to New Zealand and back by her designer and performed admirably. Quite an interesting boat in many respects. Here's a link to her listing as she is currently for sale:
Vela Yacht Sales (Victoria, BC)
Brian


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## mazzy (Mar 11, 2006)

I did find a review by Jack Horner. Google it,, as I don't have the link handy


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## BermudaHorst (Sep 18, 2007)

Hi, I own a Westerly Centaur here in Bermuda and I'm pleased with it. I've had it offshore without concern, and it was apparently sailed from the UK to the US by one of the previous owners. It's stable and tough but not fast. I single-hand it as the Admiral don't sail! Here's some more links;

Westerly Owners Association

Westerly-Owners : Westerly Owners Group

There's a Westerly Centaur that is raced in the Jester Challenge by Alan Charleton - http://www.jesterinfo.org/


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## gonesailin40 (Sep 6, 2007)

Thanks for the links. 
Ever have her out in anything rough? And other than slow, is there anything you would feel a need to warn someone about?


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

It is one of those "potty British things". Twin keels aka blidge keels work marvelously if your prime consideration is letting the boat sit stably on the bottom while a daily 20-foot tide runs in and out. 

In parts of the world where there is only a single two-foot tidal rise (i.e. Florida) the entire concept of twin keels, which add lots of drag and cost and give you back nothing in return, is unheard-of.

And, outside of the UK and perhaps Nova Scotia, the resale value will be equally unheard-of.


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## Mipcar (Nov 8, 2008)

A few issues ago there was a good series in the UK mag Practical boat owner, it covered all the Westerlys


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## BermudaHorst (Sep 18, 2007)

Never had it out in any real heavy weather so I can't comment on that. In simply crappy conditions its fine and dry. Any Centaur is going to be an older boat now (mine is 37 years old) so look over it very carefully.

Practical Sailor did a review in 1999 which was favorable. One of the editors of Sail magazine lived on his, and there's at least one documented circumnavigation ('Lookfar'). I found this link this morning BLUEMOMENT • View topic - Westerly...a proper British built boat

-Horst


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## mallo (Mar 21, 2007)

Hi all

We have the second “Bluebird of Thorne” she was the second 48ft bilge keel boat built by Lord Robin Riverdale who then went on to build the third “Bluebird” in association with Arthur Robb. Our Bluebird was built in 1939 and is still going strong, she is based in the UK where we can have up to a 40ft rise and fall on the tide. For about 20 years she was on a drying mooring and so took the ground without any bother twice a day. The last approx 20 years she has been afloat in a marina during the summer season, however we winterise her in a part of the harbour that dries for 10 days at a time and she doesn’t float for this period.

Regarding sailing speed and pointing, well she is a cruising boat she doesn’t point quite as close as a modern fibre glass boat, but due to the fact the keels are toed in slightly this lifts her up to windward, so she points pretty well for a 70 yr old boat (if I am doing as well at 70 I wont be complaining). Speed, well although she has a larger wetted surface she is bound to be slightly slower however we are very modestly rigged (she is ketch rigged and I am sure a modern boat of a similar size would have a larger sail area) however we carry our sails for longer and she is very happy at 7.5 – 8 Kts with the wind slightly aft of the beam in 20-23 Kts of wind.

We fitted a feathering propeller a number of years ago and this has mad a huge difference in light airs.

We have sailed many miles in the nearly 40 Years she has been in our family and we wouldn’t swap her, she has a very good sea kindly approach, when you get her heeled one of the keels is nearly vertical, offering the most resistance against leeway and helping to carry he up to windward, the other keel is nearly horizontal offering the most amount of righting capacity, we also find that this keel has a very good dampening effect in rough weather. We have had here offshore on several occasions without any problems or worries, in fact due to her shape in the bow, she hardly ever slams unlike most of my friends boats that are flat under the bow and do, I find this very tiring. 

For our cruising area she is great, as she can take the ground without any worries, although I am not sure of requirement in Florida if you don’t have the tidal range. 

Please don’t hesitate to contact me if I can offer any further assistance.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Back in the late 1960's I worked as a sailing instructor in a sailing school that used Westerlys. The fleet was a mix of bilge keel and fin keel versions of the same boat. (I think they were roughly 24-26 feet but I can't recall the model although Centaur sounds right.) 

There were clear differences between the bilge keel vs fin keel models, especially at either end of the wind range. The fin keeled boats sailed way better on all points of sail, but the difference was especially noticable in light air, a chop (the bilge keelers seemed to really roll more in a chop), and in heavy air, where the bilge keelers were slower, had trouble tacking through the wind and waves and so were prone to getting caught in irons and backing down and then take some scary knockdowns. We typically had to reef the bilge keeled versions before the fin keel versions. 

The biggest problem that we had was freeing them when they grounded. Once planted they were really hard aground. We could always refloat the fin keelers by heeling them and backing out. That obviously did not work with the bilge keelers. 

To be frank, bilge keels would be a deal killer for me in most areas of the world.

Jeff


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## mallo (Mar 21, 2007)

Hi Jeff
I can understand you having problems “freeing them when they grounded” and I am not disputing you did, but we had the complete opposite on several different occasions whilst tacking up a couple of rivers that we know we would go from one river bank to the other and when the speed started dropping or you could feel her aground we would tack and come straight off as she rounded up and set off on the next tack, much to the annoyance to the locals who were panicking thinking we were going aground.
We draw about 7ft heeled and 5ft upright.
We sometimes visit several marinas in our local area and if we were a traditionally keeled boat we wouldn’t be allowed in due to going aground.
As regard to speed we used to cruse with another family who at the time had a brand new Oyster 435, ok she was 5 ft shorter than us but comparing an modern designed boat to one that at the time was nearly 60 Years old the oyster would point slightly better and was slightly faster but not by a huge amount. On some occasions when it was blowing hard we would be faster than them (probably due to the water line length).
I have increased the light air sailing speed by including a big cruising chute and has helped thing along a lot.
We don’t find the boat roll’s too much, in fact with a enough way on she rolls a couple of times but due to the extra keel area and wetted surface she seems to dampen the roll.
My father has just completed a trip on a modern fibre glass boat, and he said I wish I was on our boat as it was so uncomfortable due to the slamming up forward. 
It’s all a compromise between economy and perfection, and everyone wants different things out of there boat…… as said before I wouldn’t of thought there would be much benefit of having a bilge keel boat in Florida, due to the lack of tidal range.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

gonesailin40 said:


> Looked around as you suggested mazzy and found some decent info, thanks. Not alot of info on sailing characteristics or stability. I guess the fact that the most positive things writen about them is the ability to beach them when the tide goes out answers many questions about them.


You got your answer...the purpose of a twin keel is beachability...but the resulting sailboat is slow, doesn't point well and is tender (tippy...). So wether it will work for you depends on what tradeoffs you want in your next boat....


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

It's not all negatives. A boat with twin keels isn't that tender. As mallo posted, when you touch by mistake after releasing the sheets you draw less, freeing the boat to float off while when you free sheets on a single keel boat you suddenly draw more and are more likely to stay aground. There are hundreds if not thousands of twin keel sailboats in the U.K. as well as around the world. Below are two diagrams showing two points going for twin keel boats. The picture is a boat I used to own that sailed Victoria to Mexico and back and Victoria to New Zealand and back. Also google "Bluebird of Thorne" to learn more about twin keel design and theory. Bluebird was a 50 footer designed for Lord Riverdale by the esteemed Arthur Robb in the fifties and she met her design goal and was sailed across oceans extensively. I believe she is still sailing somewhere. With respect to Jeff, while not in the category of a Farr, I think they are as good or better than many old shoes touted as "ideal". The Centaur is one of the most popular boats in the U.K. in its size for that era. The Westerly I owned was built in 1967 and I am still impressed at its construction. Different strokes for different folks. How boring if all boats were the same.
Brian


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## gonesailin40 (Sep 6, 2007)

Thank you all for your input. After reading what I could find, and thinking about it for a couple days I have decided she is not for me.


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## mallo (Mar 21, 2007)

*Bluebird of Thorne a bit of history*

Hi to all
I would like to clarify a few points also make a few points of possible interest.

Sailingfool your comments:-


> "You got your answer...the purpose of a twin keel is beachability...but the resulting sailboat is slow, doesn't point well and is tender (tippy...). So wether it will work for you depends on what tradeoffs you want in your next boat...."


I don't agree with the "sailboat is slow, doesn't point well and is tender", this depends a lot on the design, as I have explained in post #14 we are not that much slower than a traditional fin keeled boat, we probably don't point quite as well see post #12 but we certainly are not tender,not by a long way.
My uncle has a westerly bilge keel boat as mentioned above and he does admit it being a bit slower than a traditional keeled boat but not by much, I have sailed with him on several occasions but not in really bad weather&#8230;... I still prefer our boat

Mitiempo thanks for your comments you obviously have experience of sailing a bilge keel boat, how did you find it? The photo looks very similar to the "third Bluebird" what size was your bilge keeler. For the record the third Bluebird is afloat and sailing, not a million miles from you (I think) in Lopez Island (I have been in touch with the owner).

Finally
For the record there was three Bluebirds built, the first two were built by Lord Robin Riverdale, the first in the 1920's was of wooden construction was 20ish ft long and is still afloat in a museum on the south coast of the UK.
The second one which we own is very much afloat and we sailed her a lot (when work allows) was built in 1939 and is 48ft long of steel construction, this had a slightly different keel design, the keels ran back to support the bottom rudder bearing. She also has a small centre keel where the bulk of the ballast is and why I think our boat is not tender. Also spreading some of the ballast weight out to the outer keels helps with the stability, lack of rolling and tenderness.
The final Bluebird was built in the 1960's was 50ft long also of steel construction, again had a slightly different keel design, this one Robin Riverdale consulted Arthur Robb regarding the keel design, as above she is on the west coast of America. I don't know a huge amount about the first and the third ones as I have only read about them and not seen them although I do have some photos of last one.
At this point I must add that a second one of the third design was built by an Australian in the 1980's and is currently in Adelaide somewhere.
One thing I do know is she was caught out in a gale on the south eastern corner of Australia knocked down but promptly came back up with very little damage and carried on the journey. I have met the current owner of this boat and he has sailed on our Bluebird and his words were, the two boats are very similar in lots of ways, the looks, the motion and the speed. (I have to add they had just spent three weeks in the Med sailing a friend's boat and found our boat motion much more comfortable).
Robin did tank testing for the last two boats, I am not sure for the first one before he built the boats, I also have copies of the launching of our Bluebird and a log of the maiden trip, I also met Robin on several occasions when he was alive, he was a very interesting man full of stories. I also have a signed copy of a book he wrote about his sailing life.
I have some photos but have never managed to include them in the posts, I will try again. 








This was a picture of our 1939 bluebird "Inversanda"








This is a picture of her being launched including keels


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Mallo 

I clearly respect your experience with the venerable and famous BlueBird. She was truely a remarkable and innovative design. But she has very little resemblance to the Westerly's in question. 

I will say that it is rare to have a chance to do months of side by side testing of different keel types on otherwise identical boats. My experience was with fin vs bilge keel versions of the same boat and essentially the model in question. My experience was across a wide range of windspeeds and in multiple groundings and that is the basis of my comments. 

There was a very observable differences in speed and handling between the two models in questions. Since the sails were rotated between boats for a variety of reasons, but mostly because we taught new sailors to rig the boats from bare, so that sails did not make a difference, neither did which instructor was on board. I was one of the faster sailors amoungst the group and when sailing the bilge keel boats, I could not keep up with the slowest instructors on the fin keel boats, but I could easily run off and leave them when I was on the fin keel boat. One of the other more experienced instructors and I experimented sailing side by side on quite a few occasions, and the bilge keel boats clearly made a combination of more leeway, less speed, and could not point as high. (I say combination because you improve pointing angle a little but speed disappeared and leeway increased or head off a little and get a little more speed and less leeway at the price of pointing lower. Even so the fin keel boat was better at all three.) 

While a bilge keel boat does not have to be less stabile, achieving an equal stability to a fin keel comes at the price of a combination of higher drag and more weight. 

With regards to the grounding issues, I have seen versions the diagrams shown above. In reality, the Westerly's do not have BlueBird's widely skewed keel angle. The keel tips are closer together and at normal sailing angles the leeward keel was not all that much further down than the windward keel. In a grounding the leeward keel leveraged the windward keel into the bottom jambing both and making rotating the boat very difficult. We used these boats to teach how to free yourself from running aground. Whatever the throry, after dealing with the grounding problems with freeing the bilge keelers (even using the Boston Whalers to help tow them off) we stopped using them to teach freeing the boat from a grounding. 

Respectfully,
Jeff


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Mallo
My first was a westerly 25. The second was 35' long, a custom design with the hull and deck built by Bent Jesperson in Sidney B.C. and the interior was finished by Mike Betts. Michael McGrath was the designer. Actually designed by Michael for himself, a friend talked him into letting him build to the design. The construction was strip plank western red cedar with glass over. the keels were steel with ballast in the lower portion and tankage above. I was the second owner. The original owner sailed to Mexico and back. I sailed her locally only. The designer purchased her from me in 1995 and did an extensive refit which included adding twin rudders while keeping the central rudder for powering. He subsequently sailed to New Zealand and back from Victoria. In my experience, while a twin keel boat is probably a bit slower because of the drag issue, I don't find them tender. They are not a state of the art racer but then a great many cruisers are not either. Michael and Jane DeRidder from B.C. built a flush deck 40' twin keel boat in the 60's and sailed her extensively in the Pacific and are now in New Zealand. They post regularly on setsail.com (the Dashew's site). Here's a link to the listing for Marimba2 as she is now listed for sale. Michael redid the whole exterior but for the most part kept the same interior as I had with the exception of changing the u-shaped settee port side to a straight settee with pilot berth above and outboard. She is a very interesting boat and has more adventures ahead of her. Vela Yacht Sales (Victoria, BC)
Brian


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Bluebird, 1939, radical new twin keel design.

OK, so 70 years later, like the secret power source of Atlantis, the modern world has lost all knowledge of why this is a better design, and it has disappeared from the face of the earth?

I don't say the mass market is always right, just that when something becomes THAT SCARCE there is usually a good reason it failed to take the world by storm. Or stealth.

In the 80's didn't they promise us the Scheel Keel would dominate the world within ten years? Did anyone count to ten yet?


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Hellosailor
If everybody sailed a Catalina, or a Farr 38, or an old shoe like many on this site own and love the world would be a very boring place. I wonder how many Sailnet members own boats that are based on designs from the early part of the last century or even earlier? How many sail schooners? How many sail Bristol Channel Cutters - based on the Falmouth Working Cutters?
How many would lust after a design like the Westerman 40? We all know or should that sailing is the world's most expensive way to travel slowly. If one picks a Westsail or an old schooner or a racing tri they all enjoy what they sail. Enjoyment is not measured in speed for all. Character and style rate highly with many. Variety can be found even in some designers portfolios. The Westerman 40 is designed by Nigel Irens who also designed Idec and many other racing tris. A lot of designs are regional and just as the east coast has its share of boats harking back to a century ago England has its unique designs. Twin keel boats are very common in the UK - not so much here but they can be found. They can represent good value and are often very solid cruisers. If you want to race you won't buy one. The same can be said for a Westsail 32 or that old schooner. Should they be denigrated? I don't think so. How many twin keel boats have you sailed by the way? 
Respectfully
Brian


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## mallo (Mar 21, 2007)

Hi Jeff
Thanks for the information regarding comparing the Westerly’s, I would expect a fin keel to be slightly faster than a bilge keel due to the extra wetted surface (extra drag) and on a cruising boat that shouldn’t be much of an issue, I am sure that the Bluebird’s would have been faster if they were a fin keel configuration, I also agree because I had a conversation with Robin Riverdale about the fact that the modern bilge keel boats were a traditional boat with slight modification and two plates just stuck on, they didn’t necessarily have the angles and toe in as the boats Robin had produced.
I haven’t sailed in the more recent Bluebird’s they were more along the lines of the moody etc.
Its interesting what you said regarding the fact you couldn’t keep up with the fin keeled boat when in the bilge keeled boat, but could when the other way round, how much time/distance were you loosing/making??

Hellosailer
It probably was a radical new design in the 1920’s and when Robin built the first one and he must of thought he could better with the design, that was why he built the successive ones. Another fact is that they still build bilge keelers (well they do in the UK) now however it’s quicker, less work and less expensive to build a fin keel as a bilge keel and at the bottom line this is what the customer wants. This is why they aren’t too popular in non tidal waters (well minimal rise and fall). I would not like to pay to have a hand built steel boat built now, it would be prohibitively expensive. If I took you out sailing and didn’t tell you the boat was a bilge keeler I doubt you would think the boat was slow…
Life would be very boring as Mitiempo says if we all stood by a standard fin keel, he brings up a few good points. Also having a boat with a bit of character, history makes for some of the fun, after all that’s why we sail…… 
Respectfully
Michael


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Michael, "slow" is a relative concept. Bluebird might be a fast boat, for many reasons. And equally important a sweet boat, what used to be called "yar". But these days, if a boat can't qualify for a _negative _PHRF rating, well, she may not be slow but she's also not fast. (G)

Odds are there's a lot lost in getting to that negative PHRF rating, but there's also a market still for "better" boats, and twin keel variations simply haven't taken any market share that I know of--aside from places where the water is so poorly disciplined that it slips away right out from under the boats at least once or twice a day. (VBG)


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

A couple quick notes here, first of all, I certainly agree with Mitempo's point about the desirability to have a diverse collection of boats available to suit the diverse range of tastes out there. In my own case, I have enjoyed owning and sailing a very wide range of boats, and in particular have enjoyed seeing their virtues and liabilities. Although I currently own and lean towards modern performance sailing craft, I certainly enjoyed owning and sailing my 1949 wooden Folkboat or my 1939 Stadel Cutter which was based on the 1800's era pilot schooner George Steers. 

I want to clarify that I do think that there are venues for which a bilge keel boat makes sense but based on my experience with bilge keels. It is only because of the venues in which I sail, and my tastes in how i sail that I can't imagine a circumstance in which a bilge keel boat would make sense. 

With regards to HelloSailors comments about the Scheel Keel, although the Scheel Keel as originally patented by Henry Scheels is comparatively rare today, the basic principles of the Scheel Keel design concept (a bulb keel whose shape is opimized to minimize drag, increase endplate effect while lowering the vertical center of gravity of the boat) is widely used today in everything from basic production cruisers to grand prix race boats. 

Jeff


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## bentheboat (Dec 28, 2006)

Hi Gonesailin40,
It's probably too late to be of help to you now - you've probably got your boat!
However, for what it's worth, the Westerly Centaur is very highly thought of here in the UK. They are one of the most popular yachts ever built, you see more of them around than practically any other type.
I have never owned one myself but have sailed them and have had friends who have owned them. They are very seaworthy boats, and sail better to windward than people generally expect a bilge keeler to. There's a surprising amount of room in them and they are generally well built. I think that you need have no qualms about buying one, they're good.
Regards,
Ben (UK)


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## Granea (Feb 9, 2011)

I have been sailing a Westerly W 25 for several years.
She is as she came from the factory and I am loth to change anything.
Pointing? Well I am slower but I go upwind close hauled with in 2 or 3 degrees of the best. Bow on W 25 is a bit blunt so to keep speed I need to bear off a bit.
Certainly a bit slower but when the rest head in I am still happy.
Very stiff and hard to knock down. I have been out when the sane stay ashore.
The Westerly's or mine are slege hanner tough. 
Hit a cement block at 7 k with starboard bilge keel. Beached her to check damage and nothing. Cement block.. knocked chunk out of that... but hope it does not happen again. 
Rust? Never mind they are cast. Chip it out if you want and fill and smoth. Lay the epoxy on wax paper and lay it into place smoothing to shape.
You or I at least end up sneaking into places maybe one sould stay out of as they draw so little water and I ofen beach to explor with a stern anchor out and bow tied to tree or rock. 
The W 25 has three keels. Center and two bilge. Rudder is protected by the center keel.
Resale? You get one of these and why sell it? 
This one stays in the family and grand children are learning to sail on her.
Mine saled over to Nova Scotia from Ireland. Owners manual says she will ride out any storm. I hope I never need to find out but I expect she would do much better than 90% of what goes past me on race day. ( I do not bother with races but when any sail boat comes along face it you are racing? )
Not for everone but I love the old lady.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

The first boat that I ever sailed on was a twin keel Hurley 20 or 22, but I was only a couple of months old. My parents sold that boat when I was about a year old. They had it on the Chesapeake bay (Sassafras River)

My impression was that they had it for it's low draft (2.5ft vs 3.75ft). This makes me wonder how it compares to a shoal keel, which also suffers from increased wetted surface, higher displacement, and poor pointing when compared to a fin keel. 

It's unlikely that I'll ever sail one. The rocky and steep coast of the PNW isn't that helpful for standing the boat up on it's keel, even if we do get larger tides than most of the US.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

That's marvelous, it only took 3-1/2 years for one owner to stumble across the old thread.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

Sorry, normally I notice and don't get involved. This one had enough still current regulars that I didn't check the dates. Oh well.


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## Granea (Feb 9, 2011)

I have found it a great boat and ideal for where I am and what I want to do.
We all have dif needs. 
Glad I ran ground on the thread.
Charles


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Granea said:


> I have found it a great boat and ideal for where I am and what I want to do.
> We all have dif needs.
> Glad I ran ground on the thread.
> Charles


You can look here ( the post about twin keels), for some more information:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-...341-interesting-sailboats-385.html#post990492

Also have a look at the "Randoneur" a modern twin keel boat, or this one that won the 2012/13 boat of the year award for best family cruiser:






http://tv.yacht.de/video/RM-1260%3A...xklusiv-Test/02a21796d1aed8c31ce2ef877dcdf454


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## jrd22 (Nov 14, 2000)

Important historical note: I learned to sail on a twin keel Vivacity 20 ) I think Dad figured (correctly) that I'd run aground in it. Try as I might, I couldn't break that boat, lots of fun.


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## djaustralia (Mar 17, 2013)

Not sure if the OP is still keeping up with this thread but i'll chuck in my 2 bobs worth. Whilst the twin keel offers upright stability at low tide and a possible reduced top performance, they also have the unique ability , when heeled over under sail, that with one keel splashing the surface the other is deeply buried offering deep balast and directional force. Similar to what a canting keel would do I think. I've also seen photos of sailors actually standing on the keel that is on the windward side. Both offering extra stability and a good laugh for onlookers! Maybe give it a bit of a scrub n' clean while they're there.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

I have been cruising for nearly 3 decades in my current 31 ft twin keeler and there is no way I would consider going back to a single keel. Friends cruising twin keelers all feel the same. Saving a fortune in marina fees is a major consideration . There are 4 in my current anchorage, and we can all walk out at low tide.
One of my 36 ft twin keelers had a race against a sister ship with a single keel. They were even on all points of sail, except to windward, where the single keeler had a very slight advantage. The twin keeler is on her way to the Aleutians after rounding Cape Horn. Do a search under Silas Crosby for the rest of the story.
In the early 80s, most of my clients went for single keelers. Now 80% are going for twin keelers, and many of those who have single keelers wish they had twin keelers. People looking to buy one of my boats, have turned down many a boat because it only had one keel.
With a twin keeler, the ease of drying out means you will spend a lot more time sailing with a clean hull. The money you save on moorage means you will be able to do a lot more cruising, covering many miles, that the single keeler, with his high moorage bills will never sail far enough to make up for the time he has lost. Thus, in miles per year, the single keeler will be far slower overall.
On my last two trips home from Tonga, I made it from Hawaii to Vancouver Island, the first half to windward, in 23 days .Not any slower than it would be for any heavily loaded 31 footer, regardless of how many keels she had.Going south, I was south of Hawaii in 14 days .When she was emptier, I sailed circles around many single keelers of the same size.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

jrd22 said:


> Important historical note: I learned to sail on a twin keel Vivacity 20 ) I think Dad figured (correctly) that I'd run aground in it. Try as I might, I couldn't break that boat, lots of fun.


Me too - it was the first boat I bought. It was so slow that you had plenty of time to see the shore approaching.


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## NeilBraun (Jun 21, 2015)

And for my first post I sensibly reawaken a thread not active since 2013.
Hi!
I have, or rather she has me, a Westerly 25, she's got three keels as some one else has already mentioned, points fine and isn't slow. She pushes through chop like its not there, tacks perfectly WHEN the inner forstay doesn't snag on the jib sheet knots, and is far from tippy, if anything she's solid as any boat I have been on and far more so than most. The old Westerlies are sort of famous for not just being able to sit when the water goes away, they are also famous for being able to go anywhere. Mines crossed the Atlantic and has been through all sorts of other craziness.
If this were not an archeological sort of thread I would have told the original poster they were looking at a potentially great boat.
Anyway, that's it for my first post,

Cheers!


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

NeilBraun said:


> And for my first post I sensibly reawaken a thread not active since 2013.
> Hi!
> I have, or rather she has me, a Westerly 25, she's got three keels as some one else has already mentioned, points fine and isn't slow. She pushes through chop like its not there, tacks perfectly WHEN the inner forstay doesn't snag on the jib sheet knots, and is far from tippy, if anything she's solid as any boat I have been on and far more so than most. The old Westerlies are sort of famous for not just being able to sit when the water goes away, they are also famous for being able to go anywhere. Mines crossed the Atlantic and has been through all sorts of other craziness.
> If this were not an archeological sort of thread I would have told the original poster they were looking at a potentially great boat.
> ...


Congrats! but... Show her off Neil! 
:worthless:


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## NeilBraun (Jun 21, 2015)

Hi Denise, I can do that.
I just have to figure out how to post pictures on here via my phone...
OK! Looks like I figured it out, this is Ingrid at anchor in the back country of the Florida Keys. Ingrid is a Westerly 25 built and designed by Dennis Rayner, (who I think was brillian) in 1966. I have a Cape Dory 25 as well and dispite being the same length they are totally different boats.


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## NeilBraun (Jun 21, 2015)

Hmmmm.... Did that actually work? I'm using my phone, I should look into how to attach images properly.


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## IQ_85 (Jan 16, 2016)

I found this thread AFTER I stumbled on Bluebird of Thorne a project of one Lord Riverdale... Apparently at least one other steel boat was built to the plans of Bluebird of Thorne 2 (1950's). It ws named "Blue Eden" is a beautiful boat and can be seen in a video on youtube. For some unknown reason Eden finished up at 54 LOD instead of 50 LOD. I would like to know why but haven't been able to find out yet. I suspect it may have been stretched a little to ease the lay of the steel plate.
Then there is Bluebird of Thorne 1 (1930's) 48 foot. (Wood?) One named "Inversanda" is discussed and shown elsewhere on this thread by its current owner.
Comparing photos of "Blue Eden" and "Inversanda" reveals a difference in the shape of the keels. Unexpectedly the Mark 2 keels actually seem to have a simpler shape and appear to be independent of the rudder skeg. The Mark 1 keels have an open "window" in them and appear to extend all the way aft to the rudder skeg. (See photo above.)
Even though Riverdale's twin keels idea never caught on commercially I think it's very interesting and may have potential for further development. But before you start spluttering about the "poor performance" of bilge keelers note that Riverdale distinguished between "bilge keels" and "twin keels" in the sailboat context.
Bilge keels are added to a sailboat design for the simple purpose of upright grounding. This allows the owner to obtain economical mud moorings. Improved performance is not an objective. This was not Riverdale's interest. Maurice Griffiths' famous and very popular Eventide was designed as a sort of economical English "volks boat" around this idea. For some people it's a choice between wonky performance or no boat at all. Typically a bilge-keeler will have one central rudder.
Twin keels however are designed in at a sailboat's beginning stage for performance reasons taking into consideration that a sailboat sails heeled-over on its side. This was Riverdale's interest. Upright grounding is just a side benefit. Obviously for large and expensive boats like the Bluebirds the economy - and ickytude - of mud moorings would not come into play at all. The Bluebirds have a rudder for each keel.
What I find interesting about the Bluebirds comes in two flavors. One is the engineering issue related to a sailboat's heeling. The other is the potential of such a design for long-distance cruising. By all accounts the Bluebirds have decent if not blistering performance. But along with that you get the side benefit of upright grounding. That could be quite handy in some waters for a number of reasons: surviving sheer stupid blunders of course; emergency repairs in a remote place; or service in a place lacking proper facilities for your boat. After all not every marina has a big Travelift.
It seems that with a properly-designed twin-keeler you could get the best of both worlds: adequate performance and amphibious pretentions.
At the present time I am aware of four Bluebirds: two Mark 1's: Inversanda and another unnamed one in England; two Mark 2's: Riverdale's original boat now in the PNW and Blue Eden most recently in Canada.
Mystic Seaport's plans collection includes this item:
31.92	BLUEBIRD OF THORNE, 50' ketch yacht; Designer, Arthur C. Robb, Design # S144 
which I take to be Blue 2.


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