# Topping lift vs. boom kicker



## tcase10 (Dec 14, 2007)

What do you think? I have a catalina 27 and do not have a topping lift or boom kicker but want one to keep the boom out of the cockpit. I also do not have a vang, but will add one when I put the other. I have a standard rig and mid boom sheeting. Thanks.


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

Belt and suspenders not a bad thing. go for both!


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## montenido (May 14, 2008)

Why not install a rigid boom vang? That will support the boom when needed and still pull it down when needed.


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## lbdavis (Apr 23, 2007)

*One good reason*



montenido said:


> Why not install a rigid boom vang?


$$$$$. I don't know how well those kickers work, but I don't think of 27'ers as having rigid vangs.


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

lbdavis said:


> $$$$$. I don't know how well those kickers work, but I don't think of 27'ers as having rigid vangs.


Why not? The Cat 27 we looked at, all tricked-out for racing, had one. Yeah, they're expensive.

Some comments I saw on this subject on Brion Toss' forum indicated that for other than racers, a boom kicker plus topping lift is better than a rigid boom vang, however.

Why the topping lift if you've got the boom kicker? In heavy air and seas you're going to need to hold onto that boom for dear life when reefing or taking the main down. The kicker isn't going to hold that boom up steadily with your weight bouncing up and down on it.

Jim


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## knothead (Apr 9, 2003)

tcase10 said:


> What do you think? I have a catalina 27 and do not have a topping lift or boom kicker but want one to keep the boom out of the cockpit. I also do not have a vang, but will add one when I put the other. I have a standard rig and mid boom sheeting. Thanks.


Tcase10, 
A boom topping lift is very handy. I am surprised that you don't have one already. Could it have been lost somewhere in the past? I am assuming that you have a pennant attached to the backstay that you are currently using to hold the boom up. Right?
If you are able to get yourself up the mast, this is a job that you can certainly handle yourself. 
If you have a masthead sheave open, then you can use that for a running topping lift. 
If you want a wire with a block at the lower end then you just need to make up a piece of 1/8" vinyl coated wire with thimbles at each end, long enough to reach a couple feet short of where your boom normally rides and attach it at the top with a shackle. 
You can also shackle on a block at the masthead and run a line through that. 
Lots of options. 
You can decide later about a boom kicker.

Steve


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## kiprichard (Aug 1, 2007)

I'd go ridgid vang. Garhauer make one that is excellent quality at a resonable price.


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## BreakingWind2 (Jan 3, 2008)

Do you anticipate a day when you will want to fly a spinnaker? If so, go with the topping lift.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

I have a rigid vang and a topping lift, and I like having both. If you can only add one though, I'd put on a topping lift.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

The other advantage is that a true topping lift gives you another halyard to go aloft on or to use as a replacement mainsail halyard in an emergency.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I have a Catalina 27 that was tricked out for racing before I took ownership of her. I do have the solid vang and have to say I love it. With the topping lift and a full batten main you could snag the battens on it.


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## negrini (Apr 2, 2008)

SD is correct, I had to use mine a couple of times when main halyard jammed on top. That would also give you more confidence to put on your hammock


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## djodenda (Mar 4, 2006)

OK.. So, I just spent the big bucks on my new Garhauer rigid vang on my Catalina30. I'm getting ready to take off my topping lift, but now you guys are making me question that.

The topping lift flaps around and catches on things, so, I THINK I want to get rid of it. 

My rigid vang bottoms out if it goes much below horizontal, so I don't quite understand why I would need the topping lift to support the boom when I am reefing. I would think that the rigid vang would hold the boom (and me) up nicely.

On the Catalina 30 forum, someone said that you'd want to keep the topping lift to keep the boom centered, which makes even less sense to me.

I'm thoroughly confused. Please educate me.

David


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Why not lead the topping lift forward and secure it at the base of the mast instead. Then it'll be available when you need it, but not flapping around on you. 

BTW, most rigid vangs clearly state they should not be used to support the boom on a normal basis, and that if the boom is being stored for a long period of time, a topping lift should be used.


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## knothead (Apr 9, 2003)

djodenda said:


> OK.. So, I just spent the big bucks on my new Garhauer rigid vang on my Catalina30. I'm getting ready to take off my topping lift, but now you guys are making me question that.
> 
> The topping lift flaps around and catches on things, so, I THINK I want to get rid of it.
> 
> ...


David, 
The "topping lift" that keeps the boom centered is the type that consists of a short pennant that usually has a spring clip on the bottom and is Nico-pressed to the backstay.

The benefits of having a topping lift have been addressed already, it can serve as a spare halyard and can even haul a flag aloft when sailing or dressing the ship.

As SD says, a topping lift can be rigged so that it can be unshackled from the end of the boom and brought forward when sailing to prevent hanging up on the battens. 
Some systems wouldn't lend themselves to that very well like the ones that run through the boom. However, I think the OP was in a situation where he has none and can set it up anyway he wants.

Steve


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## djodenda (Mar 4, 2006)

Steve:

OK.. I get it. I've had topping lifts that were attached to the backstay that certainly did help keep the boom centered. 

Not this one. As you suspected, It's a wire from the masthead, that goes through a block on the end of the boom, attaches to a line, and travels forward to a cleat. You adjust the height there. Not much use as a spare halyard!

I actually have an extra sheeve at the mast that I could use and make a "real" topping lift/spare main halyard/flag halyard.

I'll muddle this over this a bit, I think.

Thanks,

David


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## tonybinTX (Feb 22, 2008)

Also note these fine people are speaking of a running topping lift, not a fixed one. I've a fixed wire from the masthead to the boom end (with a 2 ft adjustable loop line on the boom end) as my topping lift. I've seen many people use their main halyard as a topping lift while not sailing.

I just installed a boomkicker because my new, full batten, roachy main hangs on the wire topping lift. My next trip up the mast will be to remove the wire and to rig a spare 'running' halyard for the many reasons others have suggested.

I love the boomkicker! Cheap (compared to rigid) and really a breeze to install.


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## tcase10 (Dec 14, 2007)

WOW, thanks for the input. I agree with Tony, I can use my main halyard if needed as a lift if stored for long periods. Also, I am installing a furler and should have an additional halyard that will not be used other than a drifter or spinnaker. I saw that breakingwind said if I want to use a spinnaker to go with a topping lift. I assume that he was referring to using the lift for the spinnaker, but I am not sure. Is that correct?


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## knothead (Apr 9, 2003)

tcase10 said:


> WOW, thanks for the input. I agree with Tony, I can use my main halyard if needed as a lift if stored for long periods. Also, I am installing a furler and should have an additional halyard that will not be used other than a drifter or spinnaker. I saw that breakingwind said if I want to use a spinnaker to go with a topping lift. I assume that he was referring to using the lift for the spinnaker, but I am not sure. Is that correct?


I am not sure what Breakingwind meant by that. Perhaps he was thinking about a pole topping lift.
You certainly wouldn't want to use a topping lift or any other halyard exiting the aft side of the mast for a spinnaker halyard.
Your new furler must be a CDI or another brand with an internal halyard. Most furlers still require the use of the headsail halyard.
You may want to rethink using a regular halyard for a spinnaker. A proper spinnaker halyard will be forward, (above) the headstay. If you use a regular halyard for a spinnaker it will chafe on the headstay on one tack or the other unless you reset it each time. Thats why most spin halyards run through a block hanging from a bail at the masthead.

Steve


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

Not to drag this off-topic, but...



knothead said:


> You may want to rethink using a regular halyard for a spinnaker. A proper spinnaker halyard will be forward, (above) the headstay. If you use a regular halyard for a spinnaker it will chafe on the headstay on one tack or the other unless you reset it each time. Thats why most spin halyards run through a block hanging from a bail at the masthead.


The things you learn here . I'd been wondering why our spinnaker halyard was rigged so differently from the two jib halyards, and now I know. In retrospect: It's obvious.

Jim


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## Columbia9_6 (Apr 15, 2006)

A topping lift is a multi-functional device. A rigid vang, or boom kicker are not; they serve one purpose. So, you have to ask yourself... Do they perform that single purpose so much better that either of the others that it warrants having it onboard? For me, the utility of a topping lift far out weights the capability of either a boom kicker or a solid vang. A topping lift can be used as an emergency halyard, to lift the tender, as a crane when loading heavy objects at a quay, etc.


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## djodenda (Mar 4, 2006)

OK... I'm muddling some more.....

In last weeks episode, you will recall that:

1) I have installed a new rigid vang on my Catalina 30

2) The existing topping lift is a wire that runs from the mast head, and connects to a rope, which attaches to a block at the end of the boom and travels forward to a cleat on the boom.

3) This topping lift is annoying, as it snags on my battens, and flops about in a bothersome manner.

4) Others have stated that it's important to have a topping lift to properly support the boom during reefing.

5) Others have stated that it's not a good idea to let the boom rest on the solid vang when moored.

6) The topping lift, since it is a attached to the mast top, is not useful for hoisting things.

Since I could attach my main halyard to my boom end when moored, this eliminates problem #5. It seems to me that the only advantage of keeping the existing topping lift is problem #4. If I wanted to have the other advantages of a "proper" topping lift, I could run line through my extra aft sheeve and make one. I'm wondering if this is worth the trouble.

I'm going to jump around on the boom this weekend and seem how stable it seems.

Your input, as always, is welcome.

Still thinking....

David


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## knothead (Apr 9, 2003)

djodenda said:


> 1) I have installed a new rigid vang on my Catalina 30
> 
> 2) The existing topping lift is a wire that runs from the mast head, and connects to a rope, which attaches to a block at the end of the boom and travels forward to a cleat on the boom.
> 
> ...


David, 
You can detach the wire topping lift from the rope. Secure it forward with a separate piece of line somewhere where it won't bother you. 
Tie a stopper knot on the rope and pull it against the sheave at the end of the boom.
That way you are removing it for all intents and purposes and can see what it's like without it for awhile. 
When you have a chance to go aloft at a later date, you can remove the wire and add a running topping lift or not.

In my experience, it is not uncommon to see boats that are equipped with a rigid vang or boom kicker with no actual topping lift. It's a personal preference thing.

Steve


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

Our topping lift is static. There's a small 2:1 tackle on the end for adjustment. It attaches to the boom with a carabiner-ish shackle. Thus I can easily move it to the mast boot (ours has been upgraded with a square plate underneith that has plenty of holes all around) and secure it there.

Of course: If one should forget to move the topping lift back to the boom before lowering the main, an embarrassing moment results 

Jim


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## paboylan (Dec 8, 2014)

I'm coming late to this game, but I had googled boomkicker because I just saw a 30% off advertisement, and got this thread. I assume sailingdog "a true topping lift gives you another halyard" is talking about tcase10 who says, or said in 2008, that he didn't have a topping lift. If I were to get a boomkicker I assume there's still room to keep my existing topping lift either connected to the boom as a spare, or both ends cleated to the mast.

That still leaves one with the problem, mentioned in a couple of posts, of having more stuff aloft than you need, in which case one has to decide if it's better to have and not need than need and not have. Just how much trouble does this relatively light 'halyard' cause if nicely secured to the mast? I imagine if it's loose it would slap against things in the wind. Would it really make enough difference to performance that I'd lose in a close race?

And I'm talking about adjustable topping lifts, essentially small halyards from the boom's aft. Some posts have talked about fixed topping lifts, both the kind that are short lines or wires clamped from the backstay and clipped to the boom's aft, which I also have, and folks have told me not to use it, because I often forget to disengage it when I've raised the sail.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

I would install/retain the topping lift, even with the best hard vang available. Alternatively, bring the halyard aft to serve as the topping lift after the main is dropped.

A unique value of the topping lift, is when you tighten the mainsheet against it, the two lock the boom in place, so the mainsail can be furled and the cover set, with out the boom swinging. leaning against the boom and having it give way, is a common cause of falling into the cockpit or cabin.


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## danvon (Dec 10, 2012)

The topping lift also lets you lift the boom high (and out of the way) when anchored. That's especially nice on a smaller boat like the Cat 27 where you can use all the room you can get. We have the wire from the masthead running through a block at the boom end - have never had any issue with it snagging on our fully battened main.


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

The boom kicker is perhaps a single purpose device, but I'd argue it handles that single function better than a topping lift. A rigid vang is a 2 direction version of same purpose. The reason is the top lift is directly in the wash of the main, as well as gets hung up on the main leech... I ditched my topping lift, in lieu of a kicker years ago... but like has been said, I ALWAYS move my halyard to the aft end of my boom after my mainsail is down (to provide a secure hold in rougher water). If I had a sail-slug main, this might not be what I'd want to do, then I could see the argument for keeping both.

The pigtail to the backstay is an option, but not really a viable one... It's a great way to take out your whole rig if you leave it attached, raise main, and get a massive wind gust/direction change before you get it unhooked.


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## knuterikt (Aug 7, 2006)

SEMIJim said:


> Our topping lift is static. There's a small 2:1 tackle on the end for adjustment. It attaches to the boom with a carabiner-ish shackle. Thus I can easily move it to the mast boot (ours has been upgraded with a square plate underneith that has plenty of holes all around) and secure it there.
> 
> Of course: If one should forget to move the topping lift back to the boom before lowering the main, an embarrassing moment results
> 
> Jim


What if you need to put in a reef?
you go chasing the boom to attach the boom lift?


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## knuterikt (Aug 7, 2006)

paboylan said:


> And I'm talking about adjustable topping lifts, essentially small halyards from the boom's aft. Some posts have talked about fixed topping lifts, both the kind that are short lines or wires clamped from the backstay and clipped to the boom's aft, which I also have, and folks have told me not to use it, because I often forget to disengage it when I've raised the sail.


We have a rigid vang. 
Have replaced the topping lift with a permanent messenger line, one end attached at the chainplate to avoid the external part slapping at the mast the other end to cleat on the mast.

I move the halyard to end boom when we are not sailing
- supports the boom
- Avoid slapping against the mast

For lifting I can use one of my halyards - because I don't normally hoist when sailing.
Except in a MOB situation where I would use a block and tackle attached to one of the spinnaker halyards (or any free halyard)


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## HR28sailor (Feb 11, 2010)

A vang is important when sailing on and off the wind without it the boom will tend to ride up twisting the leach and depowering the sail. mid sheet booms try to reduce this effect but twist still happens. Not so noticeable when cruising but racing or even wanting to gain a little extra speed a vang will definitely be worth it. Keeping the boom parallel will improve sail power. So many uses to a topping lift as mentioned. with the two you can have the ability to have more control over sail shape subsequently better performance.


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## Dave_E (Aug 7, 2013)

Topping lift and boom vang. You'll be glad you have both.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

this is an older thread but basically same info and advice as on the other newer much heated thread called "to boomvang or not" or is a "boomvang really needed" or something...thread.

I remember posting on that one a bunch and it got really informative and HEATED...

basically too vang or not and how depends on the boat and mainsail design...whether or not you race often and like to trim a lot or not and whether yuor boat needs it or not.

fwiw I have never had a boat without a pullied topping lift...small or big except for dinghies have all had them. some racing dinghies have the pony tail configuration or single fixed wire and clamp.

I dont think of them(topping lifts) as just a boom hold they can and will affect sail shape if used as so.

in any case all my boats booms have always been made fast with mainsheet against topping lift at anchor...when stowed I use the main halyard as a double topping lift as it will hold much longer weight wise, as most topping lifts are lightweight.

a halyard at the end of a boom and a pulley is a great way to lift stuff and crane overboard

its great when cruising.. say hauling in a case of bottled water or a case of cans or whatever.

for racing and or spirited sailing, I have found the certain topping lift heights and mainsheet taughtness will get a FIXED sail shape, for example to constantly spill the main if it doesnt have a reef system.

in any case

I think on my new boat Ill be going the boom kicker route for a vang and keep the topping lift...

my main has bit of sag that cant be taken out so a kicker and adjustment of the cunningham and other trim will maybe help me get a better sail shape.

however the reasoning for the boom kicker now is this boat will be shared with new sailors so instead of having them hold and adjust the topping lift all the time and get aggravated a kicker will keep it at least up and moveable without 2 arm fiddling

hope that makes sense

hopefully it will also give me nice performance as well

peace


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## WoobaGooba (Oct 16, 2012)

sailingfool said:


> I would install/retain the topping lift, even with the best hard vang available. Alternatively, bring the halyard aft to serve as the topping lift after the main is dropped.
> 
> A unique value of the topping lift, is when you tighten the mainsheet against it, the two lock the boom in place, so the mainsail can be furled and the cover set, with out the boom swinging. leaning against the boom and having it give way, is a common cause of falling into the cockpit or cabin.


+1 ^ this. Plus the reefing issue.

Thin Dyneema will work great as a lift and fly free when eased.

Re: the vang, you can save 1/2 the cost, some weight, etc by going to a low friction ring cascade.


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## HR28sailor (Feb 11, 2010)

The other added benefit of a toping lift which I don't believe has been mentioned so far is
it takes up the weight of the boom and reduces strain on the leach. if the sail alone is supporting the weight of the boom the strain over time will stretch and deform the leach.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

HR28sailor said:


> The other added benefit of a toping lift which I don't believe has been mentioned so far is
> it takes up the weight of the boom and reduces strain on the leach. if the sail alone is supporting the weight of the boom the strain over time will stretch and deform the leach.


Not sure I'm buying that one .....

There's a lot more 'strain' on the leech from mainsheet tension than boom weight except in the lightest of airs.. and the last thing you want to do is take up boom weight against the mainsheet (with the topping lift) while trying to properly set the main leech tension/twist.

I'm a fan of rigid vangs that also provide support, no full time 'topping lift' and as often said already, using the main halyard as a boom support anytime the sail is down. I'm also a firm believer that a good, usable vang is much more than just a sail trim measure, it's an essential piece of safety gear.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

absolutely they will just as a kicker will

I just did it on my boat the other day..you tighten the lift enough to pull the boom up, you can do this as much ir as little as you want up to snapping the lift as you pull in mainsheet

I mentioned this is a great way to spill wind on an otherwise unreefable main

you spill wind off the leech

the same can be attained by pushing a boom kicker all the way up or installing it to be higher than level however this will give you less adjustment for sail shape as you will be maxed out unless you change the purchase system on the vang part


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

christian.hess said:


> absolutely they will just as a kicker will
> 
> I just did it on my boat the other day..you tighten the lift enough to pull the boom up, you can do this as much ir as little as you want up to snapping the lift as you pull in mainsheet
> 
> ...


... in light air, yes, when the 'boom weight' is a more significant part of the equation... agreed. On those occasions the weight of the boom is enough to close the leech..

But the vang's job is generally to resist the sail forces that naturally want to 'lift' the boom.. so once we're in that mode you don't need/want the topping lift resisting the mainsheet... IMO 

As a quasi-reef/spillage measure I'd rather flatten the sail and dump the traveler - another reason to also have a good, usable traveler system coupled with a powerful vang.


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## HR28sailor (Feb 11, 2010)

If the weight of the boom is solely allowed to be supported by the leach, the boom will set below the horizontal, flattening the sail, and the sail would not be creating as much power. The topping lift is necessary to support the boom to maintain so the boom is on the horizontal. It is also useful as a guide. if it goes slack the boom is riding up so tighten the vang. (of course this is dependant on your point of sail) Strain needs to be minimized on the leach so the outhaul and leech lines can be adjusted to optimize sail shape.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

HR28sailor said:


> If the weight of the boom is solely allowed to be supported by the leach, the boom will set below the horizontal, flattening the sail, and the sail would not be creating as much power. The topping lift is necessary to support the boom to maintain so the boom is on the horizontal. It is also useful as a guide. if it goes slack the boom is riding up so tighten the vang. (of course this is dependant on your point of sail) Strain needs to be minimized on the leach so the outhaul and leech lines can be adjusted to optimize sail shape.


Generally any mainsail should be cut so the boom is horizontal when the sail is full hoist, with no assistance needed from a topping lift. If it is not, then the sail's the problem.

Advising that the topping lift should be used to hold the boom after the main is hoisted, would seem bad advice. For my last two vessels (CS36T and P31-2) and most others I sail, I find the topping lift can be set properly once and forgotten. If you screw up and sail with a tensioned topping lift, with end-boom sheeting you may only break the topping lift, with mid-boom sheeting, you may break the boom. I've personally broken a boom due to a topping lift not being released (some else's boat...).


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## HR28sailor (Feb 11, 2010)

yes due regard for the topping lift tension must be considered I agree. I guess my point is in the scheme of control lines controlling the sail, maintaining the horizontal axis of the boom between the vang, and the topping lift, once the main is up the topping lift can be snubbed up not bearing the the sole weight of the boom mind you, but take a bit of the pressure off. the vangs downward pressure keeps the boom from rising, and the main sheet maintains the sails profile to the wind. It is a means of spreading the load as it were.
I have been doing it this way for 20 years. But hey, I am open minded, who says old dogs cant learn new tricks. Maybe I have been lucky nothing got wrecked doing it this way all these years...


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

SHNOOL said:


> The pigtail to the backstay is an option, but not really a viable one... It's a great way to take out your whole rig if you leave it attached, raise main, and get a massive wind gust/direction change before you get it unhooked.


It's like you've watched me sail!

Pull away from the dock nice and close hauled, then bear off to a beam reach and ease out the main and AACKKK NOTHING IS HAPPENING!


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

Faster said:


> ... in light air, yes, when the 'boom weight' is a more significant part of the equation... agreed. On those occasions the weight of the boom is enough to close the leech..
> 
> But the vang's job is generally to resist the sail forces that naturally want to 'lift' the boom.. so once we're in that mode you don't need/want the topping lift resisting the mainsheet... IMO
> 
> As a quasi-reef/spillage measure I'd rather flatten the sail and dump the traveler - another reason to also have a good, usable traveler system coupled with a powerful vang.


I think we can mostly agree here either method here can be used to acheive similar results

for example on most of my boats I have always either reefed or when thats not possible just dump the mainsheet

however my "new boat" has an awesome purchased traveller system and is a racier boat so thats the way to do that without messing with the mainsheet so much that would always change the shape of the sail

anhywhoo as always many ways to skin a cat here....


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

regarding setting and forgetting topping lifts this must be a new technique as I have never done so...I also havent broken a boom yet knock on wood

it goes without saying like releasing the backstay or runners when rounding a reaching mark or whatever that you have to pay attention to what your are doing

I think vangs have been very misunderstood at times even topping lifts...

and used for other purposes than intended

I mean for all intents and purposes like I and others mentioned on the vang thread you can sail perfectly fine on many a boat without a vang, especially low aspect mains and long boomed older boats

however once the leech is stretched you have to recut or figure something out as youll just keep sagging

anywhoo


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## djodenda (Mar 4, 2006)

Or.. you could do what I wound up doing....

I got a new boat!!! 

Much nicer than the old one..

New boat had a Selden rigid boom vang.

I use the halyard to hold up the boom when I'm not sailing.

This boom vang is much stronger than the old one.. It all works just fine.

I recommend the new boat purchase path. Faster may be available to help out with the logistics


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

jajaja WORD


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