# I'll start here ......



## davecason (Aug 8, 2012)

Hi Folks,

Well I guess I'll start here ..... I'm currently researching boats and marina's for a live aboard semi retirement. About the only thing I can say about boating is I can spell the word with some help! (grin) I've started looking for boats around the 40' mark and I've found a couple..... 

- I guess the first question is what is the process when you search for and find a boat you want to buy?

- I've found a boat I'm interested in but the broker seems to say that I can't have a copy of the survey that was done in 2011 - is that normal. Can I at least read it? What is the procedure with pre done surveys?

- If I want to get a survey done - how is this usually accomplished?

- I assume that buying the boat is pretty straight forward – give them the money and they’re pretty happy.

- I’m guessing that the sale can be made conditional depending on the results of MY survey that I have done or other conditions etc.

I’ve found a Mainship 40 and the broker was pretty laissez fiare about me being there probably because he thought I was a tire kicker ….. is it appropriate to ask the company that’d rather deal with someone else? He did say that the boat burns $50/hr in gas at 9.5 knots – god knows what that means? Any other MainShip folks out there that can fill in the blanks for me?

It’s a 1995 MainShip 40 Sedan with twin 454’s EFI 340 HP 8 Cyl with a V drive and they says it’s got 310 Gal fuel capacity – it also says that cruse is 16 with a top speed of 26 and they say RPM’s t cruse are 3200 – so in knowing that can anyone tell me what sort of range I could expect? I also assume that if I was cruising I can shut down one engine and cruise on one? Is that done?

Part of my idea is getting a sedan boat is since it’s my first boat it might be a tad more appropriate and comfy as a live aboard plus I think it’ll be a bit easier to learn seamanship on a boat like that rather than something like a sloop with full sails.

Anyway that’s where I’ve started and any and all comments or suggestions are welcome!

Cheers’
Dave


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

Dave,

Regarding surveys, in the US at least, the buyer pays for the survey. This could be a couple hundred dollars minimum. There is a general reluctance to allow someone else free access to what someone paid quite a bit to get. 

The second issue is that you really want as current a survey as possible to reflect the current condition of the boat. Even one year of sailing can cause considerable damage or changes that were not reflected in a previous survey.

Once you've narrowed your choice down to THE boat that you feel that you want, then locate a surveyor and have him or her survey the boat. If you Google "Sailnet surveyor" there are other threads on the survey question.

I don't know if the process for finding a surveyor is different in Canada. One of our northern members can answer, I'm sure.

Best of luck!


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## ParadiseParrot (Oct 6, 2010)

If your actually going to move this boat I would consider another.
GAS motors burn thru fuel and no you cant run one engine to double the range.
This is a flat water boat. It is meant to sit at a dock and move only once in a great while.
Personally I would not sit on 300 gallons of gas day in and day out.

Find a diesel boat. 130 hp single engine TRAWLER...Dispalcement or Semi Displacement hull at worst. You will steam in comfort day in and day out and can go anywhere without issue. Around a gallon or 2 an hour.

Now if you are not going to actually move the boat then it wont make any difference.
But $500 a day steaming in a Mainship with twin gas motors might be out of your reach money wise...or not.


As for range on such a boat...figure 0.8 miles per gallon times 310*.8 (reserve)*0.8 gives you about 190 miles is my guess. or about 6.3 us dollars per mile.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

As was stated above, this is a sailboat forum. You may not get the expertise you would appreciate. Cruisersforum.com may help more on the trawler questions. That being said...

You only burn fuel when you are moving on a trawler. I am not against them. In fact, for many, I think they are the right choice. I have lost several offers on trawlers before my latest sailboat. My strong preference is Nordhavn 46 or 62. Second maybe Kady-krogen 42. THird is probably an albin 43 Sundeck. I am reasonably knowledgeable about these boats if you want to PM me. 

As far as your other questions: The survey release depends on the broker. However, as you are looking for a boat, I sugest you get yourself a broker. What is your budget (max and comfortable)? Would help us to suggest sailing options for you. Remember that brokers are paid by the seller... not the buyer. Its like buying a house that way. A good broker is worth his weight in gold. A bad one... well, the fertilizer stuff. If sailboats are your interest (which they may not be), I have one whom I suggest that is very good. Others will have opinions too.

Never take a brokers opinion on burn rate. Research it yourself. They (mostly) all lie. No offense. Just remember burn rate is when you are moving. You will spend 1% going, 99% anchored or marina bound. THis is true even as a sailor. Consider that before swearing off trawlers. However, motor yachts (Sea Rays for example... I have many others) are notoriously uneconomical and piss poor live aboards and cruisers. I mean no disrespect, but I am surrounded by empty ones. On the positive side, they are in abundance right now for sale and cheap. My friend-broker told me they cannot give them away right now (and motor boat because of cost of operation and economy). He said sailboats are moving if they are in good condition. But sailboats are by far the most economical and the tighter of the two. THat being said, I find most sailboats (if not all) better liveaboards than the affordable motor yacht. This is not true of trawlers who foot:foot are much more comfortable, IMHO. All that comes with a price (not just money) though.

Hope I have helped some. Mainship does not have (imho) a world class reputation as a trawler. You will likely find better boats. However, if you are stuck in a price-point, they may be your better option. 

Last point (from someone that would consider a trawler): If my budget was under say, $250,000, I would buy a good sailboat to cruise on. If my budget was over, I would consider a trawler. $200ish is probably my breaking point. Other feel differently, and that is ok. My personal ideal trawler budget is circa 500,000 (late model nordhavn 46). Less than that, I would be including sailboats. I can give you my list of comparable sailboats that I think balance the scales in comfort and cruiseability at or under that number.

These are my opinions. Others will differ. I have shopped certain trawlers heavily though. And FYI... I still came back to a sailboat. THere are certain intangibles to sailboats no trawler can ever fill, not even a Nordhavn.

Brian


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

When you get YOUR survey done make sure you discuss with your surveyor how much of a survey he will carry out on the engines and gearboxes.

In many cases it will be minimal. You may have to employ a seperate propulsion systems surveyor.

N.B. In the UK older boats of the type you describe with twin petrol engines are almost unsaleable. If you can afford the running costs you buy something newer.

A single diesel is preferable. Like THIS


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## davecason (Aug 8, 2012)

Hi! WOW ! Thanks everyone for for all the great responses! That helps me tons .....

So let start at the top, so there should be no problem with me looking at the old survey right? And yes, I would get my own survey done AFTER I make a decision on the boat it’s just a matter of picking the right boat. Again, I've "just" started looking at the live aboard life so right now 40' seems to be a nice place to start and for one person probably pretty damm comfy. To me right now the focus first is: Can I get a boat that’s comfortable to live on but still have the ability to “pop out“ of the marina to go fish and play once in a while? That’s where I’m at with my decision making process right now. How dumb is that, so I’m posting here to ask the experts. Am I on the right page or should I be thinking about …… XYZ first !

For example, after reading reading Paradise Parrot’s comment about sitting on 300 gal of gas every day …. Holy crap! He knows what he’s talking about, did I think of that? Oh heck no, duh, so now that I’ve pretty much gone off the idea of gasoline and now I’m looking at diesel …. Thanks Parrot, decision one has been made. 

So now it’s on to the powerboat versus sailboat and the type of boat to pick. I think for me, not knowing anything about seamanship, navigation, etc, the powered vessel with a motor or two seems a bit safer and a nicer way to learn. When we fish our massive reservoirs here in Alberta (grin) we have the main, our kicker and a little ol trolling motor so between the 3 motors we'll get back to the dock somehow. I kind of want that if I go out in that big ocean stuff on weekends, and I'd confine myself to inside passages and right around home for at least a year till I learn what I need to know.

So generic sedan or trawler or sailboat, I have a friend that has offered to take me out for a month in Hawaii on a 58’ sailboat to start to learn the craft and I would be taking navigation courses and stuff as well since I have a ton of things to learn … but I’m still stuck on power and I have it in my head that it seems to be a safer and easier way to learn the basics. So again folks …. Am I right or wrong?



I also have the budget to think of …… I’d like to get a boat for $100K or less, is that achievable!? I scientifically pull that number out of my butt but it’s not carved in stone. I have one marina picked out that’s pretty much setup as a live aboard community with mostly live aboard’s and floating homes in it near Victoria, Canada I’m looking at about $600/mo for a my permanent slip so that works for me.

I found Brain’s comments about sailboat’s being better to live aboard over an affordable motor yacht really interesting – can anyone add to that!? With my limited knowledge about this overall I would have thought it to be the other way around.

I also like Brain’s suggestion of a trawler over the sedan but since I will be doing this all myself I’d “like” to get a boat suitable for a permanent live aboard solution first and worry about it actually moving later. So my focus is semi-retirement sitting on my butt in the marina and watching TV and just relaxing, so it’s more of a home than a blue water cruiser for me right now. I’ve seen a couple of 34’ foot boats that seem OK for one person and I’ve played on a 26’ boat that was definitely too small for me personally as a live aboard. 

Lastly, one odd question , I have a friend of a friend that owns a Sea Spirit PassageMaker 60 Yacht that has the single Lugger 1276 engine but he also has a Keypower hydraulically driver “get-home” system ….. I can’t find much out there on that, does anyone know what that is?

Thanks again for all your comments and suggestions …… yea, it’s a sailboat forum …. with people who know what they’re talking about – works for me!

Cheers’
Dave


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

In this market you can get a pretty nice liveaboard trawler for 100k or less.

You have not said where you intend to keep the boat and what sort of crusing passages you are thinking of making. Based on your location I would guess somewhere in Puget Sound / Vancouver / Straits of Georgia which is a GREAT cruising area. You are not out on the open ocean and towing services are available SO in the event of engine failure help is at hand. In that situation I would be happy with a single diesel. You could add a mount for your tender OB say a 15 hp on your stern and that would push you along too if needed unless conditions were evil. But as a full time liveaboard you don't go out in evil conditions.

Yes twin diesels would make the business of manouvering in tight spaces easier but a bow thruster takes care of that too. Twin diesels will cost more to buy and to maintain but of course you do have the comfort of having that other engine if one fails.

A single diesel should be more economical than twins.

As it gets cold up there and you talk as if it is going to be a full time liveaboard then insulation and heating will be critical. I suspect you will want an enclosed aft deack with a sun deck above for the good days of summer.

Either of these would be worth a look

42' Doric Boat Works Pelaglic Trawler CLICKY

36' Gulfstar Trawler CLICKY


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## cruisingdream (Feb 7, 2007)

Best I can suggest is look at A LOT !!! of boats to get an idea of what you really want. It can be a little overwhelming, but you already decided on a live aboard and I think a diesel. Note that width of a vessel can add a lot of room just as as well as length so dont write off a boat just because it is a foot or two shorter than you origionally wanted.


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## ParadiseParrot (Oct 6, 2010)

Remember that a lot of fishing boats go out to sea year round with a single diesel. Add a kicker bracket for the OB for your dink if u must. 7/8 knots is plenty fast for fishing and if you fish when the waves kick up like I do then your not going much faster than that anyway. Might as well get a sea kindly hull. Trawlers have mucho space and are real boats.

One other thing to remember it is much safer to be in the briny blue than near shore.
Near shore has inlets and rocks and shoals.


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## emoney (Jun 2, 2010)

I think you're leaning in the right direction. A Trawler/Cruiser will afford you a lot more room to live aboard and it will be a little easier to get the hang of. None of them are "rocket science", of course, but there's a lot to be said about turning a key and going, regardless of the lack of wind.

Width or beam of the boat has been mentioned and I think you'll find that it makes a huge difference in the amount of room. Keep that in mind while you're internet shopping as it will be obvious when you're shopping in person. And yes, folks will show you their survey, most of them might even want you to stop there, lol.

Your budget should afford you a nice boat and an incredible "starter boat". Take your time as there are plenty out there, and that number will increase, depending on the area of the country you're looking in. In other words; the frozen tundra, which to me is anything north of Georgia...buwahahaha. By all means, make sure you have both a survey AND a mechanical survey because they're usually 2 different things. That doesn't mean that one guy isn't capable of doing both, but that you need to have that discussion prior to an inspection. It's the hidden things that can and will hurt you later on.

All in all it sounds like you've got a logical head on your shoulders and for being a "newbie" are pointed down the right path. The only thing I might add is to consider re-sale when purchasing, just in case you decide in 6 months it's "not for you". Spending a little time researching specific models will help clear up any fogginess in that arena. But from a basic standpoint: just because it's attractive to you, doesn't mean that anyone else likes it. Knowing that, invest your money in the things that ARE important to any future buyer: motor, electronics, hull condition, etc. etc. etc. Good luck!


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## zedboy (Jul 14, 2010)

davecason said:


> So generic sedan or trawler or sailboat, I have a friend that has offered to take me out for a month in Hawaii on a 58' sailboat to start to learn the craft and I would be taking navigation courses and stuff as well since I have a ton of things to learn &#8230; but I'm still stuck on power and I have it in my head that it seems to be a safer and easier way to learn the basics. So again folks &#8230;. Am I right or wrong?


I don't think the typical trawler has a trolling motor, or could get far on it if it had one.

The typical guy with twin 454's doesn't leave the dock. And he can't honestly answer you on his burn rate because he doesn't know (have experimentally verified this) - I think if he knew he'd have sold the boat .

It's true a trawler has more room. But the sailboat will get you home if the wind is blowing, and you can still motor (maybe about the same speed!). A cruising sailboat will carry a pretty good motoring range worth of diesel. It's true there is more to learn with a sailboat - but maybe that's good. The average dufus gets behind the wheel of his SeaRay like it's his BMW and could be in real trouble when the weather gets nasty, let alone be a hazard to others.

Powerboats have to learn navigation too. Of course they all just use the chartplotter...cheaters. But heck the Bums sailed around the world with one.

At least for the ones I've met the sailors have a monopoly on seamanship. My theory is that because everyone expects sailing to take some skill, sailors are more in tune to trying to learn and improve constantly. The surprising thing is, it doesn't take that much to figure out how to get the sails into decent trim and get the boat moving - though maximizing your abilities is a lifetime's work.

Also sailboats are much more awesome. And better looking (the boats, not just the sailors...).


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

davecason said:


> Hi! WOW ! Thanks everyone for for all the great responses! That helps me tons .....
> 
> So let start at the top, so there should be no problem with me looking at the old survey right? And yes, I would get my own survey done AFTER I make a decision on the boat it's just a matter of picking the right boat. Again, I've "just" started looking at the live aboard life so right now 40' seems to be a nice place to start and for one person probably pretty damm comfy. To me right now the focus first is: Can I get a boat that's comfortable to live on but still have the ability to "pop out" of the marina to go fish and play once in a while? That's where I'm at with my decision making process right now. How dumb is that, so I'm posting here to ask the experts. Am I on the right page or should I be thinking about &#8230;&#8230; XYZ first !
> 
> ...


Hey Dave,

If you are just going to set in a marina all the time and watch tv, with little interest in going out or going far, just get a houseboat. They are very inexpensive, have as much room as a condo, and are a easy transition for you. We have a very good friend that has one and she also keeps a small sailboat to get her sailing fix.

If you plan on only going short distances and when money and weather permit, get a motor yacht of some sort. You will have maximum room for foot:foot, and though they are very expensive to run, you won't hardly do that anyways and will know your costs ahead of time. Difference is that some more distant destinations are at least possible here over a houseboat, though expeisive.

If you plan to go to distant destinations, live off the hook a times (if not a lot), but think your cruising will mostlyt involve going one place and staying there a good bit, get a trawler. They are relatively economical to run, have more space foot:foot than a sailboat, are capable of more distant destinations than most motor yachts, and capabale of taking a beating.

If you plan to really live off the hook or travel to distant destinations, get a sailboat. I don't agree with other posters that you are only limited by the wind, but for the most part, you can do distance travelling in safety and comfort and economically. They are the most economical to run, have the least space foot:foot of any floating vessel, are capable of very distant shores and should be able to take the toughest beating.

THese are all generalities. THere are exceptions to every rule. For example, I would take a Nordhavn places with more peace of mind than I would many sailboats. THere is a motor yacht across from me that has done a circum (of course she's 155 feet and for sale for 24 million dollars and has a f/t crew of 6). There are some sailboats that I wouldn't take furhter from the dock than I could swim back. But, this is a good generality for you to consider.

YOu can get an old motoryacht for 100k. But be aware, the cost of these vessels is largely in the engines which may be abused or worn out. Seperate engine surveys are a must for these boats (IMHO).

My comment about sailboats being better liveaboards than affordable motor yachts was not well explained. I find my 40' sailboat much more comfortable than any Sea Ray I have been on that is anywhere near its price range. But that is our design point (long distance and ocean sailing) which assumes and requires systems and comforts of longer term liveability. for example, we have lots of storage for can goods and all the millions of things that require cruising, we are efficient with propane stoves and ovens versus electric, etc. However, much of this assumes you are going to actually go somewhere and we don't go there flat (over the seas). if you are at marina all the time and would never leave, why not use the electric range typical of most houses (and absent on sailboats)? i mean, you are always going to have electricity anyways?! But that same range underway or off the hook for much time will require a large generator, more fuel, etc. Most of the Sea Rays I have been on have this little two burner electric stove that glimmers because it has never (or rarely) been used. Most of the stoves of sailboats and trawlers I get on look like (or worse than) the typical house stove. Why? Where we go, there may not be restaurants.

Seamanship is seamanship and is not avoidable whether power, sail, or trawler. Seamanship comes into play even at the marina for boats that never leave. DOn't assume because it is a Sea Ray with twin 454's that you can throw seamanship out the window. Nothing is further from the truth. In fact, I think they should be more conscientious of seamanship since their vessel has a vastly higher potential to cause significant damage and death. At 6 knots, not to belittle the impact it can make, but come on! At 40000 lbs and 40 kts, you are a killing machine.

ALso, sailboats are infinitely more "safe" (to use your word) than most motorrized vessels. We can, when all else fails, simply rely on wind to get us from place a:b. If your engine breaks down on your sea ray, and you are out of communications range, you are screwed. You are not paddling that thing home. If you get a motor yacht and ever want to go anywhere on it (much), sure hope you are a proficient mechanic or wealthy. ALso our boats are built to take water and more of a beating. We are typically lower windage than motor yachts, etc.

Just wanted to clear those things up. BTW, i am not against trawlers as I said before. Also, sailing is not hard. Mastering it is, but few of us really have. Sailboats provide thier own unique challenges and every vessel has a tradeoff. You have to pick the one that is most right for you. And honestly, if it is just sitting around watching tv in the marina and hardly ever leaving, no way I would own a sailbaot. It really would be a houseboat.

Take care and good luck in your decision.

Brian


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

One more edit: If you really couldn't care about the money, but time is critical to you, better look hard at a motor yacht.

Brian


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## davecason (Aug 8, 2012)

Hi Guys, 

Thanks again for the great advice folks, Yep, I think a diesel is the way to go too so now I need to find a boat. I never thought of that style of vessel but based on your suggestions I'll be going to Vancouver next week to look at some boats/trawlers. We'll see what we can find, and yep, I won't be going anywhere near blue water till I figure out what I’m doing and the fact that there are towing services available is nice, what is it AAA? (grin)

I do want to have a second motor on the boat anyway – I like the idea of a mount that would let me use the dinghy’s motor in an emergency, and yep 15 HP would be a “get-home” engine if need be I guess. There is the learning curve to go thru for seamanship and especially navigation but I’ve got time, so at some point it would be nice to trundle up to Haines in the summers or maybe even runaway to the Baja Peninsula when the weather gets cold in Victoria but that’s a long way away. 

Since I am looking at living in Victoria weather and insulation is going to be a factor in the boat as well and I’d like to get a full camper back to enclose the rear deck for the colder seasons but I’ll have to get that made probably. On the boats I’ve looked at some have them but most don’t so it’s in the budget already. I guess it’s a matter of looking at the construction and seeing what’s in the walls once I find a boat. You guys would know ….. what percentage of boats out there have decent insulation in them? In Victoria it can get down to 0 deg C in Victoria but that’s only for a while and being from Calgary, my biggest shock will be the humidity us prairie kids don’t do humidity. I used to travel quite a lot and I tell ya when I go to Toronto in the winter and it’s -10 you sure feel it, in Calgary being so dry that’s nothing. Some of the people I’ve talked to say a baseboard heater or two in the boat and plug them in, I dunno that works but I think the insulation will be something to consider.

I saw cruisingdreams comments about the beam as well, that’s one of the reasons I’m looking at power vs. sail, it seems like the wider boats would make a live aboard more comfy so there seems to be a tradeoff between beam and water friendly hull. –Yes ? No ? I have no doubt that a sail boat would be great for cruising and the beam and design means that yep it will be a narrower and faster boat but I think for a first boat the power/trawler is the way to go for me.

Anyway, keep the suggestions and comment coming this is great !

Cheers’
Dave


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## davecason (Aug 8, 2012)

Hi Folks,

Well I fly to Vancouver, BC on Thursday to look at boats ... I'll be sure and post what I find here for you all to have a look at when I get back !

Cheers'
Dave


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