# Lifting Keel Yachts



## Halcyon1

We recently delivered a Southerly 35rs, a beautiful yacht, from Mallorca to the UK.






It got me wondering about why lifting keel yachts aren't more popular. I suppose in places like the Med you have a lot of depth, and therefore there isn't much advantage. In the UK though it opens up a whole new world of opportunities.

What do you think? Would you buy one? Do you own one?

Incidently this particular yacht is now for sale:

Southerly - Brokerage - Southerly 35RS

Pete


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## Stumble

I don't own one but absolutely would. The one concern is stability with the keel up, because of the lost RM boats can become very tender.


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## tschmidty

I personally think they are definitely neat. The Seaward Yachts with the lifting centerboard and weighted bulb seem particularly interesting.


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## caberg

My initial thought--without knowing much about them--is that it's one more mechanical system to maintain and repair.

That said, the benefits are obvious. Some of the promotional pictures of the Seaward yachts in shallow water are spectacular.


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## RainDog

I would for sure want one if I was going to high latitudes. Of course, I am not going because it is too cold.


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## tweitz

I have one, a Beneteau 323. The inlet to our dock crosses a sandbar, and it gives us far more freedom than we could have otherwise had. While the boat may be slightly less stiff than the normal keel model, the reasonably beamy hull gives good stability. With the keel down I draw 7 feet and it does help reduce leeway. But I often will sail without lowering the keel and we do fine. I have had the boat for 6 seasons and am absolutely delighted with it. We have had no special maintenance concerns. An added bonus is that the lifting keel uses twin rudders, which I find to be wonderful, giving a very smooth tracking, and never being overmatched when we heel, since the leeward rudder bites deeper. I understand it is designed to be able to stand on the keel and rudders if at a mooring that dries out, though I have never tried it.


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## Rezz

I would definitely buy one. Southerly and Seaward are on my wish list. They just make sense.


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## jimgo

I agree, I really like that idea. The Seaward 46RK looked pretty sweet!


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## fallard

I've had my Clearwater 35 for 17 years and have really enjoyed the flexibility of a retractable keel. We've sailed her locally and have taken a dozen or so longer trips ranging from 200 mi. to 1700 mi. and have dealt with a range of wind and sea conditions. She is not what I would call "tender".

Our displacement is approx. 12,500 lbs. and our lead ballast is 5000 lbs. Half of the ballast is glassed into the very slack bilge and the other half is encapsulated within the leading edge of our elliptical fiberglas keel. With this ballast down low and a beam of 11' 4", she stays on her feet. We typically do not heel more than 20 degrees when close hauled. By comparison, a Bristol 35.5 k/cb is noticeably more tender.

Our keel pivots on a 1.5" dia. pin and can be completely retracted, along with our rudder which pivots like a centerboard, to allow us to float in less than 2' of water. We have an electric winch to raise the keel, with a switch by the helm for raising the keel on short notice. The interior headroom under the coachroof is 6'3", but the main cabin is divided by a keel trunk that extends to the coachroof--unlike the more open layout of the Southerly's. The accompanying photo shows our boat with the keel and rudder completely retracted.










Maintenance of the retracting hardware consisted of upgrading the original SS keel pin and replacing the aluminum rudder trunk with one of composite construction. That work was done 13 years ago and the only additional maintenance was replacing the dacron Stayset keel pennant, on a 10 year cycle. This is something I can do myself.

We've been caught in winds in the 30-45 kt range on several occasions and--although we would rather be somewhere else at these times--the boat handled it well. Our boat has inboard shrouds and is very weatherly, which helps.

When all is said and done, we wouldn't give up shoal draft.


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## krisscross

A friend of mine owned a 30 foot C&C Mega at one time: MEGA 30 OD (C&C) sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com. That thing was a blast to sail (PHRF of 138) and very easy on the pocketbook to own. He rigged an electric motor to raise the keel, with manual backup.


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## Rhys05

Yep, love my lifting keel boat. Its especially nice for a "trailerable" boat since it means the boat sits MUCH lower on the trailer than it would if it had a fixed keel.










She draws 18" keel up, and 5' keel down.


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## vwmarshall

Hello,

We purchased a Seaward 46RK at the 2012 Annapolis Sailboat Show. Both engines failed on the voyage home from the factory, the anchor line broke and vessel ran aground. Keel broke off and keel trunk was pretty much destroyed. Boat was declared a CTL (Constructive Total Loss). The retractable keel function sounds good until you encounter rough weather. At the point, the boat rocks and rolls tremendously. There are numerous things we like about the boat, but would not buy another. Support from the factory for the only people to purchase this boat was very poor.


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## nccouple

vwmarshall said:


> Hello,
> 
> We purchased a Seaward 46RK at the 2012 Annapolis Sailboat Show. Both engines failed on the voyage home from the factory, the anchor line broke and vessel ran aground. Keel broke off and keel trunk was pretty much destroyed. Boat was declared a CTL (Constructive Total Loss). The retractable keel function sounds good until you encounter rough weather. At the point, the boat rocks and rolls tremendously. There are numerous things we like about the boat, but would not buy another. Support from the factory for the only people to purchase this boat was very poor.


Wow. what a horror story, sorry. Having a newly purchased boat, I don't need to be reading this. Time to log off and go do laundry, fold some underwear or something.


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## davidpm

vwmarshall said:


> Hello,
> 
> We purchased a Seaward 46RK at the 2012 Annapolis Sailboat Show. Both engines failed on the voyage home from the factory, the anchor line broke and vessel ran aground. Keel broke off and keel trunk was pretty much destroyed. Boat was declared a CTL (Constructive Total Loss). The retractable keel function sounds good until you encounter rough weather. At the point, the boat rocks and rolls tremendously. There are numerous things we like about the boat, but would not buy another. Support from the factory for the only people to purchase this boat was very poor.


Would you mind telling us your story. Sound important.
Probably a good idea to start a new thread if you want.

What kind of storm did you encounter? where, what were the seas, wind, performance of the boat.

Is this your boat?
http://www.yachtsalvage.com/Listings/YS130166.htm


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## JonEisberg

davidpm said:


> Would you mind telling us your story. Sound important.
> Probably a good idea to start a new thread if you want.
> 
> What kind of storm did you encounter? where, what were the seas, wind, performance of the boat.
> 
> Is this your boat?
> YachtSalvage.com - Hake 46' 2013 for sale


Note to Self:

Never, _EVER_ place fuel tank vents in the topsides, only inches above the waterline...

One of the most stunningly stupid things I've ever seen a builder do...



> Actual Condition
> 
> It was reported that the Captain was delivering this vessel from FL to VA, when he was in some rough seas and the engines quit due to water in the fuel. The Captain attempted to sail into port with just the jib but he put into shallow water and went aground.


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## nccouple

davidpm said:


> Would you mind telling us your story. Sound important.
> Probably a good idea to start a new thread if you want.
> 
> What kind of storm did you encounter? where, what were the seas, wind, performance of the boat.
> 
> Is this your boat?
> YachtSalvage.com - Hake 46' 2013 for sale


I second that, would love to hear the story. If that is the boat its sharp but I would never purchase it... Bad MOJO.... Bought a house one time with a history, never again!


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## smurphny

JonEisberg said:


> Note to Self:
> 
> Never, _EVER_ place fuel tank vents in the topsides, only inches above the waterline...
> 
> One of the most stunningly stupid things I've ever seen a builder do...


Simply incredible. Makes one wonder about what other Boat Building 101 mistakes this builder has performed.


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## CapnRon47

All,
I also own a lifting keel "Clearwater," mine is hull #5 (they only made 7). Our fuel vent is on the topsides, but much higher up, almost 2' above the water line. I have never had any water in my Racor.










It is a great boat, can go anywhere with a minimum draft of 1' 10". the boat came with 9' long 'duck poles' so you can raft the boat into any shallow water without running the engine.

Ron


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## capt vimes

RainDog said:


> I would for sure want one if I was going to high latitudes. Of course, I am not going because it is too cold.


What about shallow lagoons in the south Pacific or anywhere or the maldives?
I am definitely not concerned about high lattitudes but more about all those nice sunny beaches out of bounds if you have a draft of 2+ m...


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## capt vimes

vwmarshall said:


> Hello,
> 
> We purchased a Seaward 46RK at the 2012 Annapolis Sailboat Show. Both engines failed on the voyage home from the factory, the anchor line broke and vessel ran aground. Keel broke off and keel trunk was pretty much destroyed. Boat was declared a CTL (Constructive Total Loss). The retractable keel function sounds good until you encounter rough weather. At the point, the boat rocks and rolls tremendously. There are numerous things we like about the boat, but would not buy another. Support from the factory for the only people to purchase this boat was very poor.


honestly - the seaward 46RK is a stinkpotter with an option to be sailed...
2 54 hp engines for a 46?
a recess in the hull to get the keel and bulb really high up?

there is nothing wrong with lifting or swing keels and such but there is something tremendously wrong with the seaward 46RK!


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## benesailor

> e purchased a Seaward 46RK at the 2012 Annapolis Sailboat Show. Both engines failed on the voyage home from the factory, the anchor line broke and vessel ran aground. Keel broke off and keel trunk was pretty much destroyed. Boat was declared a CTL (Constructive Total Loss). The retractable keel function sounds good until you encounter rough weather. At the point, the boat rocks and rolls tremendously. There are numerous things we like about the boat, but would not buy another. Support from the factory for the only people to purchase this boat was very poor.


What a shame. Sorry to hear about your loss.


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## fallard

CapnRon47 said:


> All,
> I also own a lifting keel "Clearwater," mine is hull #5 (they only made 7). Our fuel vent is on the topsides, but much higher up, almost 2' above the water line. I have never had any water in my Racor.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is a great boat, can go anywhere with a minimum draft of 1' 10". the boat came with 9' long 'duck poles' so you can raft the boat into any shallow water without running the engine.
> 
> Ron


My Clearwater 35 has the fuel tank vent located as CapnRon47 shows. Under normal conditions it is connected, but when I took the boat offshore we disconnected the fuel line at the vent and taped over the vent outside the hull. This strategy was intended to deal with the rail being down and the possibility of water entering the vent. So, putting the vent near the waterline is obviously ill-advised, but you need to be prepared for burying your rail under conditions that could push water into an outboard vent--like an overtaking wave. The Clearwater vent faces aft, which should deflect water as you move forward, but safety concerns would dictate that you consider what might happen when you get "caught" offshore.

If you check out the salvage website provided in a previous email, you might get a better impression about what went wrong with the 46K. The loss of engines due to water in the fuel was avoidable with a better vent location , but proper preparation for an offshore passage could have prevented the water ingress. But, worse than that, one has to wonder what the delivery skipper was thinking--assuming that conditions might have allowed for assistance from SeaTow/TowboatUS, etc. to avoid what appears to be a hard, shallow water grounding. Given the damage evident at the salvage website, with running gear ripped off, the hull otherwise looks to be in remarkably good condition. The lifting keel trunk appears to have suffered the worst of it. It may not be fair to dump on the manufacturer without understanding what the delivery skipper did with the boat in the first place.

The Seaward 46K daggerboard design is interesting, especially with the lead bulb that in principle provides enhanced stability and the advantage of a high aspect fin. That said, a lower aspect, swing keel is more likely to survive a hard impact.


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## bobperry

I have always admired that Clearwater 35. I have a friend who owns one.


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## dabnis

JonEisberg said:


> Note to Self:
> 
> Never, _EVER_ place fuel tank vents in the topsides, only inches above the waterline...
> 
> One of the most stunningly stupid things I've ever seen a builder do...


That builder is/was not alone. We bought the boat below, a brand new, Skipjack 20, after selling our sail boat. The tank vent was forward about half way between the deck and the water line. The only filter was an in-line metal canister about the size of a large egg.

Anyway, the factory did not build a high enough loop in the vent line allowing water to be forced into the tank when we went through a large wave, which was often. We discovered the problem when trying to come in from a trip to the Farrallone Islands out of San Francisco. The engine would not run past trolling speed until it finally cleared up enough for us to get in.

The bottom of the carburetor float bowl was filled with salt crystals as shown in your picture. I re-built the vent line with a loop as high as I could make it, drained the tank, & installed a water separator/filter like the on in your picture, end of problem. The Manufacturer wanted no part in admitting their mistake.

Paul T


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## JonEisberg

fallard said:


> My Clearwater 35 has the fuel tank vent located as CapnRon47 shows. Under normal conditions it is connected, but when I took the boat offshore we disconnected the fuel line at the vent and taped over the vent outside the hull. This strategy was intended to deal with the rail being down and the possibility of water entering the vent. So, putting the vent near the waterline is obviously ill-advised, but you need to be prepared for burying your rail under conditions that could push water into an outboard vent--like an overtaking wave. The Clearwater vent faces aft, which should deflect water as you move forward, but safety concerns would dictate that you consider what might happen when you get "caught" offshore.


Smart move... I can't think of any good reason to ever have a tank vent placed below deck level, no matter which direction it's 'facing'... Especially, those that are placed amidships. This was by no means serious weather, it was a perfect sailing day, I was just a tad overpowered with that Code 0, is all 










And yet it's amazing how often such placement is seen. Caliber Yachts, a "bluewater" production boat of higher than average quality, placed the vents amidships, well below deck level, on their 40, for example. You can see it just above the fender in this pic:










I see no reason why a fuel vent can't be tucked away, out of the weather, and able to be capped, or otherwise shut off with a valve, in the event of extreme weather. Mine is inside a cockpit coaming box, as high in the coaming as possible...

And, although these are perhaps the single most overpriced items in the West Marine or Defender catalogs, I can't understand why these fuel vent whistles aren't more commonplace on boats today. I have yet to EVER run a boat other than my own equipped with one, and yet if one is properly installed, it's a virtual guarantee you will never get a single drop of fuel overflow when filling your tank from a fuel pump, and allow you to place your vent anywhere without worrying about spillage...










Green Marine Fuel Whistle



fallard said:


> If you check out the salvage website provided in a previous email, you might get a better impression about what went wrong with the 46K. The loss of engines due to water in the fuel was avoidable with a better vent location , but proper preparation for an offshore passage could have prevented the water ingress. But, worse than that, one has to wonder what the delivery skipper was thinking--assuming that conditions might have allowed for assistance from SeaTow/TowboatUS, etc. to avoid what appears to be a hard, shallow water grounding. Given the damage evident at the salvage website, with running gear ripped off, the hull otherwise looks to be in remarkably good condition. The lifting keel trunk appears to have suffered the worst of it. It may not be fair to dump on the manufacturer without understanding what the delivery skipper did with the boat in the first place.


The story I heard was that this incident occurred while entering Little Creek, VA... Not much margin for error, there, and if he'd lost power close to the entrance, he could have been on the beach in a jiffy...

However, in my experience, even with twin engines drawing from the same tank - assuming each had its own Racor, of course - it's extremely unlikely that both would have shut down simultaneously. I've run a lot of twin screw stinkpots over the years, and have had plenty of engines shut down, but I don't believe I've ever lost both engines at once... One or the other will at least give you _some_ advance notice that the other might be about to quit 

We'll have to wait and see, perhaps the former owner will offer some more details...


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## jeremiahblatz

The seascape 27 has a 1-meter, 580kg (out of a total displacement of 1380kg) hydraulic centerboard. Looks hot. Obviously, with a boat like that, the centerboard is designed more for trailering, but if you wanted to doodle around in shallow water with the engine, it'd be nice. 27 » Seascape


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## outbound

Outbounds are built with fuel vents in the life line stanchions . Vent faces aft. Simple and effective. With four fuel tanks clever way to deal with issue. My boat and many I've seen mount two racors side by side. One clogs switch to the other. Takes second and may save you in a tight spot.


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## vwmarshall

*Maiden Voyage of the S/V Blue Dog-Seaward 46RK*

My wife and I are the former owners of the Hake Seaward 46 RK "Blue Dog". The vessel ran aground on the maiden voyage from the factory with Hake's Delivery Skipper aboard. We waited a year to write about this event as it was too painful when it happened.

Since this event occurred bringing the vessel home from the factory with Hake Yacht's delivery skipper, we were quite upset at the manufacturer. With the passage of time, I can now look at the events a bit more objectively. We have also been asked to write an article on this for Cruising Outpost Magazine and may take them up on that offer. In the meantime, here is a shortened version...

We took delivery of the Blue Dog at a marina adjacent to the Hake Yacht shop in Stuart, FL April 2013. We were underway for about two weeks from Stuart, FL to Little Creek. (Norfolk, VA) with a plan to move in and out of the ICW depending on weather conditions. As there were small craft advisories offshore for the majority of the journey, we elected to motor virtually the entire trip in the ICW. Our goal was to not take unnecessary risks on the way home until we got to know the boat better. As we were in the ICW with little opportunity to sail, the main was not rigged. It should have been and as the owner and longtime sailor, that was my mistake. 
After two weeks underway we rounded Ft. Wool leaving the ICW/Norfolk Harbor on a Friday evening in early May and encountered ~5'-6' seas in the Chesapeake and winds blowing 25-30. Not that big of a deal as we crossed the Albemarle the night before and the seas were worse. The Blue Dog began to rock and roll pretty violently and we remembered to lower the keel as it had been fully raised for most of the trip. That helped a little, but not very much.

We had a slip at East Beach Marina at Little Creek and just passed the Ocean View fishing pier when I heard "beeeeeeeeep." The wind was very loud and seas were rough. The boat felt different and it took me a minute or so to realize the starboard engine had quit. The twin Yanmar 54s had run flawlessly for 1,000 miles. The engines had run so well for so long I had not considered the possibility that one had stopped. I was at the helm and I asked the delivery skipper to re-start the stbd engine. He did and it fired up no problem. I distinctly remember saying to him, "That's why we bought a boat with two engines." 
About ½ hour later the port engine quit and would not re-start. At that point, I knew we had bigger issues since both engines were affected. We were approximately one mile from our slip when the stbd engine quit and would not re-start. I had informed our friends and family that we were coming in and they were watching from the tower in our sub division in East Beach as we began to drift. There was no way to get the main up as you have to climb 6' off the deck to secure the main halyard to the sheet and it was too rough. I instructed the delivery skipper to deploy the anchor.

We were ½ mile or so off shore and the anchor began dragging. We let out more rode and we stopped. I called my wife, Sea Tow, USCG and Norfolk Marine Police. It was too rough for Sea Tow to come out and they did not have a towboat big enough for a 46' vessel. USCG asked if any person was in danger, we said, "No." At that point, we were pretty much on our own and in sight of our marina. Very frustrating. A few minutes later I asked the delivery skipper to check the anchor and he reported that it was "Tight as a banjo string." I began running through options if the anchor gave way. A few minutes later we began drifting. The anchor line had parted. I used the electric furler and unfurled the jib. In just a few seconds we were underway. Unfortunately, we could not tack with the jib, only jibe downwind and we were unable to make headway towards the marina. We sailed back and forth just offshore of our home for about 45 minutes as the sun was going down.

Fuel gauges showed ¼ tank and I assumed that the gauge was wrong and we had run out of fuel. The Norfolk Marine Police brought us two 5 gallon jerry cans of diesel and matched speed and course in rough weather to deliver us fuel. They were AWESOME with their boat handling skills and stayed beside us through this whole ordeal. 
Unfortunately, there was ample fuel, but water was the issue. Neither engine would restart.
It is now getting dark and the chart plotter is in Daylight mode. I'm at the helm and have my hands full steering the boat in rough seas. I ask the delivery boat skipper to put the chart plotter in night mode as the light from the plotter was so bright it was blinding me. He was reaching through the wheel trying to toggle through the different modes to get to "night mode" and I told him to "Shut the dammed thing off so I can see." He did and about 60 seconds later we ran aground. I was at the helm and take full responsibility for that.

We had run aground around 15th Bay St in the Norfolk neighborhood of Ocean View. The Norfolk Fire Department was on scene and called to us to abandon ship and come ashore. It was one of the most painful things I have ever done. We deployed the backup anchor hoping to keep the boat as far away from the beach as possible as it was low tide. Water was waist deep and I had my foul weather gear on and waded ashore.

Recovery over the weekend is another story, but I will say that the folks who came together to help us were extraordinary.


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## nccouple

*Re: Maiden Voyage of the S/V Blue Dog-Seaward 46RK*



vwmarshall said:


> My wife and I are the former owners of the Hake Seaward 46 RK "Blue Dog".
> 
> Welcome to Sailnet. Thanks for the story. Sorry for your lose, she was a beautiful boat. Hope you guys are still sailing.


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## oysterman23

Hi Fallard
What size stayset do you use for the keel pennant and does it ever get fouled by growth?


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## fallard

oysterman23: I believe it is 9/16". You can see it emerging from behind the mast and passing through a line stopper on the way to a 2-speed winch on the coachroof. Inside the trunk is a 6:1 purchase block and tackle to haul this approximately 3000# keel. The pennant never leaves the trunk, so it stays clean year after year, but it does get some splash when the keel is down.


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## CapnRon47

BobPerry,
I know of one in the PNW and of 4 here on the east coast, I am not sure where the other 2 are. One of the 7 Clearwater 35's has circumnavigated, from my understanding, which says almost as much as your endorsement! Craig Walters designed them when he was working out of Clearwater Fla, hence the name, I believe.

Oysterman,
I am sure Fallard will answer when he is next on, his lifting mechanism is electrical, mine is manual. The keel is completely enclosed in a cabinet that splits the salon. It is a bit hard to see here, the cabinet has a curved surface facing the companionway and ends up by the mast base, down below.










The keel pivots on a large pin up by the base of the mast. The keel weighs several thousand lbs and is a lot of lead. Inside my cabinet is a 6:1 block and tackle system,










the line (which is strong enough to lift the entire boat I am told) exits thru the cabintop and leads back to a winch on the cabintop. The winch is a manual 2 speed, but I use a Milwaukee right angle drill to facilitate lifting the keel.










There is a single clutch to hold that pennant in place as the load on it is greatly reduced due to the 6:1 reduction.

The pennant, inside the keel cabin, is always above the water level and never is exposed to any of the elements. The top of the keel is accessible thru inspection ports in the cabinet. I can access the pulleys and I have not seen any evidence of water on them.

Probably more than you wanted to know, but I was very curious too when I purchased the boat. OK, I am too slow, I see Fallard has already answered.


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## shoaldraft

Sorry to hear about this event as i have been wondering for quite a while what really took place. I have a Seaward 32 and the fuel vent is located quite high up on the port side stern and have never seen water in the Racor filter. A few of the many questions I have about this situation is why you did not have the delivery capt. just take a few steps through the companionway into the pilot house and change the chartplotter to night mode from the full function chartplotter located at the pilot chair helm??? I know things get confusing in the heat of battle but from the delivery capt's perspective why would he want to fight with the motion of the wheel when he (or you could have easily suggested) this solution? Having been on the boat for two weeks at this point it would seem clear that both of you would be familiar with the layout.

Also, if you bought this boat at the 2012 Annapolis Boat Show why did she go back to Stuart, FL only to need to be sailed back up in May of 2013 to where she was when you bought her?


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## JonEisberg

*Re: Maiden Voyage of the S/V Blue Dog-Seaward 46RK*



vwmarshall said:


> My wife and I are the former owners of the Hake Seaward 46 RK "Blue Dog". The vessel ran aground on the maiden voyage from the factory with Hake's Delivery Skipper aboard. We waited a year to write about this event as it was too painful when it happened.


Wow, quite the story... Kudos for relating it in such a forthright, unvarnished fashion...

Lots of lessons in that one, it could make an excellent article for one of the rags, you should do it...

Just curious, would you have reservations about going with a self-tacking headsail again? I must say, the inability to make any ground to weather in that situation under the jib alone would certainly give me pause...

Best of luck to you, hope you and your wife are able to get back out there soon...


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## bobperry

I don't like self tacking headsails on production boats. Given the fact that they go on the cabin trunk and given the available width there the track has to be too short to get a decent sheeting angle. This is really a problem in heavy air when you want to get that lead outboard to flatten the jib. This is critical if you are trying to go to weather in a breeze. You can't be curling that leech in so all it does is backwind the main.

The modern frac rig uses a small headsail. It;s not hard to tack. It;'s not a 160% genoa.
I know this because I have tried on my own designs and I have not liked the result. Convenient? Yes. Effective? No!

Now, if you had a boat with a flush deck forward and you could take the self tacking track all the way out to the rail you might have a workable setup.


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## miatapaul

*Re: Maiden Voyage of the S/V Blue Dog-Seaward 46RK*



vwmarshall said:


> My wife and I are the former owners of the Hake Seaward 46 RK "Blue Dog". The vessel ran aground on the maiden voyage from the factory with Hake's Delivery Skipper aboard. We waited a year to write about this event as it was too painful when it happened.


Thank you for sharing the details. Often you never hear the real story as the participants often never share, or move on to other things. Not an easy thing to tell publicly, especially accepting responsibility for decisions. Many would have just said, it was a stupid delivery captain that caused the issue. Not easy to do especially when new to a forum. Sounds like you really did struggle all the way to the end, others would have just called the coast guard and bailed out. You are to be commended!

By the way have you gotten another boat yet? If so what did you get, seems good to hear peoples decisions after such an indecent.


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## vwmarshall

Hello All,

Thanks for the support. I was hesitant to write about this as it was very painful and also I'm not too keen on being known as "The guy who ran the brand new boat aground". Having said that, let me try to answer as many questions as I can.

We bought the Seaward 46 RK “Blue Dog” at the 2012 Show in Annapolis. Hake volunteered to make some changes before we took possession such as:
Upgrading the bow thruster (the 46’ unit was the same size as on the 32’ and not powerful enough)
Upgrading the refrigeration system
We asked to add a radar and a few cosmetic items.
Also it’s cold and blustery on the Chesapeake that time of the year. It was our intention to make the purchase at the Annapolis show and take delivery in the spring when it was nicer weather. That would save insurance and slip fees over the winter with the vessel mostly sitting at the dock. That’s why we were headed home in April/May of 2013.

As far as putting the chart plotter in Night mode from the “Kirk Chair” in the cabin, I was probably aware that it could be done but that option did not enter my mind at the time. Things were pretty hectic and I was just about to jibe when we ran aground. Seas were directly on our port beam and the boat was rocking pretty severely. Neither of us wanted to go below for any reason. We asked for an owner’s manual when we bought the boat so I could study the systems all winter long and get familiar before we took possession in the spring. To this day, we have not received one. Also the delivery skipper was a pretty salty dog, but unfamiliar with the chart plotter and radar. We got in a severe rain squall on the first or second day such that we could not see the bow. We were in a narrow portion of the ICW and I looked to radar to help us watch for other vessels. He did not know how to turn it on. We ended up getting online via our computers and smart phones to read the manuals online to try and figure out what to do. When we did, it was completely washed out. 
Also, as we were not in a hurry, we tried to move during daylight hours only. We had figured out the “night mode” crossing the Albemarle the evening before and were just not that familiar with it. Not sure it would have made much difference. I was looking at the reflection of the streetlights of Shore Drive off the beach and could see when the reflection changed from the land to the water. Unfortunately, I wear glasses, they had sea spray on them and I was actually looking at the wet beach where the tide had just gone out (it was low tide when we ran aground) and we were much closer to the bottom of the Chesapeake than I thought.

Regarding the self-tacking jib, this is the first one I’ve ever owned. I have been onboard other boats that had them and there are pros and cons for anything. They don’t point particularly well, but there is something to be said with setting both the main and jib and tacking with little effort. I knew we would pay a performance penalty but as we are not serious racers, I hoped we would make up for that by being able to pull the keel up downwind and catch up to other boats if and when we did race. I never anticipated sailing on the jib alone.

Regarding still sailing, as a matter of fact we are. We have since moved to the San Diego area and are renting boats with an eye on our next one. We’ve been sailing Beneteau 37 and 40s and a few Catalina’s which are in the rental fleet out here. I can pretty much guarantee you we won’t buy hull #1 of anything again. We really like the Hylas 46 and would probably look for a nice later model. Preferably one that was a live aboard as they are typically well maintained and have made quite a few modifications from the factory. Outbounds are nice as well. 
Funny thing after spending two weeks at sea with the wind dead on the nose all day long, we kind of want to have a pilot house. 
Thanks again for the support.


----------



## RainDog

After your experience, I assume you have thought a lot about a plan for what you would do if you engine dies in similar conditions. Can you share your thoughts on that? What do you do now that is different from what you did before?

I try to always keep such a plan in my head, but I bet yours is better


----------



## vwmarshall

Funny you should ask... As you might imagine, I've given it a lot of thought. I believe I could have done a few things;

Prepare better- This is the most important. We crossed the Albemarle the night before and it was bad. Water was coming over the roof of the salon and breaking in the aft cockpit. There were times when the entire forward 1/3 of the vessel was underwater between waves. That was pretty scary. 
We crossed the Albemarle and dropped the hook around 2200. We were both wet, cold and really tired. The hatch over my berth forward had leaked and the berth was soaked so I crashed out fully clothed in the aft port berth as the delivery skipper had the stbd berth with the aft head. We got up the next morning around 0500 and immediately got underway. This was our last day and we were almost home. We did not check engine oil levels or the Racors. That was a mistake. It was possible that the Racors had water in them already from that crossing. I’ll never know. If they did, this was most likely preventable.

Avoid bad weather- We were in the ICW and could have stopped anywhere, like Great Bridge in Chesapeake, VA. My wife would have come to pick us up and we could have waited a couple days for the storm to pass before going on. She actually called me and made that recommendation. I ignored that. We had been underway for 1,000 miles and just survived the Albemarle crossing. I felt I could have leaped over a tall building after that. That was a mistake.

Understand when you are tired and may not be making good decisions- Just because you are close to home, if there is a storm, maybe you should find a marina and hang out for a while. Come back when the storm passes and not push your luck. 

We had a large container ship call us on channel 16 just as we were rounding Naval Station Norfolk and headed out to open water, “Blue Dog, Blue Dog, This is container ship to your port side. Pretty rough out there fellas. Ya’ll sure you want to go out?” 
If an 800’ container ship says, “It’s rough out there.” That might be a good indicator to take their advice. We were almost home and that’s all we thought about. Bad call.

Bottom line is to know yourself, your equipment and try not to take unnecessary risks. If you are off shore and a storm blows in, that is one thing. If you are close to shore and you knowingly go out in a storm in a new and unfamiliar vessel, then have problems, maybe you’ll learn from that experience. I certainly have.


----------



## RainDog

vwmarshall said:


> Just because you are close to home, if there is a storm, maybe you should find a marina and hang out for a while. Come back when the storm passes and not push your luck.


So easy to say, so hard to do 

Thanks for the insights.


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## shoaldraft

Hello,
I'm wondering if you could please tell me about the experience and process of taking ownership of Blue Dog. How many times did you sial her before leaving the shop slip in Stuart and how long and extensive was the training period on the boat and systems. I know someone who bought a 46' Saber sailboat and had the factory rep with him for 2 full weeks as part of the delivery process.

Thank you


----------



## outbound

Shoal points out a key issue. Morris includes school at time of delivery. Outbound arranged owner of company, broker and us owners to spend time together at time of commissioning. Then broker sailed back with us from Norfolk to R.I. Since broker has spent days with us helping us learn systems and instructing us as we did first maintenance service and tweaking bugs out of things like ssb and electronics. After sales service has been the best I've ever experienced. Our last two boats on the " last boat" list were boreal and outbound. One of the reasons we went with outbound was I thought it would be problematic getting after sales services from France.
I read the tragic story of someone's dreams sinking and following comes to mind.
For those sailing any time above 40N hard dodgers are wonderful. You can be suited up and harnessed already to go but still out of wind and weather with the AP remote in your hand. Pilot houses or Captain Kirk chairs take you away from the action and cut down your awareness of the environment.
Time constraints kill boats and people. 
In a decent boat outside may often be safer than the ICW.
I read the story and thought I could see myself doing every the owner did. My heart goes out to him. I have learned to add 30% to any transit. I learned to listen to others but as captain/ owner not blindly follow anyone's dictates not even professional captains given their time pressure to get a delivery done. I learned to multiple source my cruising guides and weather predictions.


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## vwmarshall

shoaldraft said:


> Hello,
> I'm wondering if you could please tell me about the experience and process of taking ownership of Blue Dog. How many times did you sial her before leaving the shop slip in Stuart and how long and extensive was the training period on the boat and systems. I know someone who bought a 46' Saber sailboat and had the factory rep with him for 2 full weeks as part of the delivery process.
> 
> Thank you


That is an excellent question and may shed some light on this whole ordeal&#8230;

The training period was virtually non-existent. When we were considering different boats at the 2012 boat show in Annapolis, (mostly Catalina's and Beneteau) one of the things that Hake sales team brought up over and over again was that they were small and would offer, "Better service than the big boys." "We'll take very good care of you and ensure you have everything you need. Come on down to Stuart and stay as long as you like." That's an exact quote best as I remember.

My wife and I own a small engineering consulting business and try to give business to other small companies such as ourselves. We offer personalized services to our clients and assumed Hake would do the same. Especially since they promised this upfront as a selling point. This was however, not the case. We sailed the Blue Dog one time the week after the 2012 Annapolis Show to see how she performed. It was a beautiful day and the boat sailed well. My wife and I decided to put down a deposit to hold the vessel then make the final purchase and pick up the boat in the spring.

I asked on that day (and many others after that) for an Owner's Manual such that I could study the systems and layout of the vessel over the winter. I'm an ex-Navy Engineer with Nuclear and Fossil Fuel experience and have been sailing for over 30 years. As a former Navy Engineer, you can correctly assume that I'm very anal about being prepared to get underway. I wanted to be as ready as possible for the voyage from Stuart to Norfolk.

The owner's manual was promised many times but never materialized. I got online and downloaded information on the Yanmar engines and other systems as best as I could to try and put together my own manual. My plan was to go down a month or so before we brought the boat home, get in daily shakedown cruises and learn the systems. After spending a significant amount of time preparing in that fashion, I would make the call whether to employ a delivery skipper to accompany us or do it on our own.

I asked Hake when was a good time to come down and offered a time window. We agreed on dates and I bought plane tickets for a 10 day period. In short, during that 10 day window, I believe we sailed 3-4 times and only a single time (maybe twice) with anyone from the factory. Once I wrote the final check and took delivery, we were essentially on our own. When I asked for help getting to know this brand new vessel, we were told, "Sorry. Not today. We have demos to do in St. Pete, Clearwater, Jacksonville, Tampa etc."

In addition, the boat was in an extremely tight area at a small marina in Stuart. It was an excellent marketing location for potential buyers to see the vessel as it was closest to the road, but the water depth was right at keel depth and the bow was resting in the mud when we came in. As a result, the bow thruster was pretty useless until we got into deeper water. Also, there were other boats all around us (including 2 large catamarans) with very little room to maneuver or make mistakes while learning the new boat. The Blue Dog had twin 54 Yanmars, but they were very close to centerline and was like driving with a single engine. A couple times someone would come over from the Hake factory, assist us getting out of this very tight space, then hop off on the next dock and leave. We would be left on our own.

At that time of the year, the wind changed directions approximately 180 degrees during the course of the day. In the morning, the prevailing winds blew us directly into the dock, which made it difficult to depart. In the afternoon the wind blew away from the dock which made it difficult to return.

We discovered later that Hake Yachts was sold a few years ago to a fellow who makes artificial sweeteners in the Midwest. That company had an appreciation party for their sales people in the Bahamas about the same time we were in Stuart. The Bahama event appeared to have top priority, not the owners of their expensive new design, Hull #1. The local folks in Stuart were shorthanded and helping the new owners was not at the top of the list.

After a few days of this behavior, I realized that I did not know the boat well enough and did not feel comfortable making a 1,000 mile trip on our own. I asked Hake for a delivery skipper recommendation and they suggested we use the fellow that delivered boats for them as he knew this vessel the best other than Nick Hake himself. That's what we did.

I decided not to go out in the open ocean till I was more familiar with the boat, also we did not have a life raft and other items for offshore cruising. That's why we sailed the ICW the entire way.

I will say, in Hake's defense, we spoke to numerous other Seaward owners before buying this boat and their treatment by the builder was generally positive. Don't know if that was before the ownership change or not. We did not have that same experience.


----------



## shoaldraft

The detail of your saga with Blue Dog from start to finish has been outstanding and i can't tell you how sorry I am for the way things ended. I am very curious as to how you ended up with the Seaward as you mentioned that you and the wife were looking at Bene's and Catalina's while at the 2012 Annapolis show. Seaward is very different than those makes. Could you shed some information? Were the dual Yanmar's worth it and what kind of speed did you see with both of them on? Did the 46 sway at anchor like the 26 and 32 do? Do you have an opinion on the fact that there is no port side seating below other than the small first mate chair. I have a Seaward 32 which is fine for day sailing or a 1 or 2 night trip and am / was strongly considering moving up as it is just too small for 2 adults and 2 kids.
I did go and take a look at Blue Dog at the salvage yard up here in MA this past winter thinking that she may have been worth looking at as a rebuild but a friend who is very skilled in boat building felt the project would be north of 200K with no guarantee.

Thanks again and I hope you find great sailing in San Diego.


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## vwmarshall

shoaldraft said:


> The detail of your saga with Blue Dog from start to finish has been outstanding and i can't tell you how sorry I am for the way things ended. I am very curious as to how you ended up with the Seaward as you mentioned that you and the wife were looking at Bene's and Catalina's while at the 2012 Annapolis show. Seaward is very different than those makes. Could you shed some information? Were the dual Yanmar's worth it and what kind of speed did you see with both of them on? Did the 46 sway at anchor like the 26 and 32 do? Do you have an opinion on the fact that there is no port side seating below other than the small first mate chair. I have a Seaward 32 which is fine for day sailing or a 1 or 2 night trip and am / was strongly considering moving up as it is just too small for 2 adults and 2 kids.
> I did go and take a look at Blue Dog at the salvage yard up here in MA this past winter thinking that she may have been worth looking at as a rebuild but a friend who is very skilled in boat building felt the project would be north of 200K with no guarantee.
> Thanks again and I hope you find great sailing in San Diego.


Good questions Shoaldraft. I can answer with my best guess but as we only had the Blue Dog underway for two weeks, motoring in the ICW mostly, my responses will be limited to that. I can tell you what we liked and didn't like after being aboard 24 x 7 for that period.

Liked: Aft "Catbird seats" were awesome. Probably our favorite thing about the boat. We mostly stayed on deck in the cockpit area unless it was raining or really cold/hot/windy. The stock seats had the railing right in the middle of your back so we had Hake modify them and add a backrest, then padding on the back rest and also where your arms rested on the rail. Very comfy and secure feeling. It was also quite nice at anchor to sit back there and watch the world. Excellent viewpoint with good visibility.
Captain's chair- the main chair while driving the boat was very comfortable and offered good visibility. Hake spent top dollar for both chairs (Kirk Chair in the cabin also) and that was one of the things we liked a lot. Very comfy and secure.
Cabin windows- Lots of natural light came in and seemed like you were outside.
Cabinets/woodworking- One of the things we didn't like about the major production boats Beneteau/Catalina etc. was the amount of pressboard with veneer. When you came onboard and went into the salon, it smelled of glue and other nasty things. The Seaward used actual wood cabinets with a rattan vent that allowed air to dry dishes naturally. We liked that.
Cabin table/work area- My wife and I have an engineering consulting business and worked at that table while underway. As long as we were in the ICW, most times, we had cell phone service and could get on line and work. It was a good spot for two people to work simultaneously while one of the other passengers was driving. Not sure how that would be in the open ocean, but in moderately calm waters, it was very handy.
Shoal Draft- We kept the keel up at the highest position during the majority of the voyage. It was pretty cool when anchoring to go past the other sailboats and get right next to the shore, within the protective line of shelter provide by trees or houses. More than once as we were slowly motoring past other sailboats, someone would call out on channel 16, "Blue Dog, Blue Dog, that's pretty shallow over there." We'd reply with something like, "Thanks. We got it." Then go further in. There were times where we could literally anchor so close we were encroaching on someone's dock space next to their house. That would be the limiting factor, not how far we had to go for keel depth. That ability gave us very nice anchorages (as long as the wind didn't change too much during the night.) Sometimes we would lower the keel and rudders just a bit to help with movement at anchor, then pull it up in the morning before getting underway. One of the first nights on the hook we dropped a line over the side with a weight on it three or four times, measured the depth and zeroed in the chart plotter so we knew exactly how much water we had.
Speed- Blue Dog was FAST. Fast under sail and motoring. For the first day I dialed in 1,800 RPMs on both motors. I then looked up Yanmar specs online (we never got an owner's manual) and 2,200 RPM was a nice number. We kept it at that RPM for most of the underway time. At 2,200 RPM we were tooling along around 7 kts-7.5 kts depending on wind and current.
Deck space- flat and fairly uncluttered going forward. Was pretty easy to clean when we got to a marina and not much to stub your toe on if barefoot.
It was gorgeous!
Those are the big things we liked about the boat.

Things we didn't like about the boat mostly came on after being aboard for a while.
Step up on cabin sole next to port side chair- I can't begin to tell you how many times _everyone_ on board stubbed their toes on this. We got to the point where we wore deck shoes in the cabin all the time. We also would forget to step down coming from the cockpit. A few times people fell. It was extremely inconvenient.
Sole decks in the cabin had gloss finish and were VERY slippery if wet- I'm sure this is not unique to this vessel, but if you washed dishes and got any water at all on the deck, the next person would slip and catch themselves or fall. My wife and I both fell numerous times as did each crew member. Also numerous hatches leaked the entire voyage and would drip water onto the deck. Even if you were careful to wipe up after dishwashing or using the sink, the main cabin hatch leaked as did the one in the V-berth forward and you would step into the forward berth and fall on your butt. Especially tricky if we were in any type of seas.
Main engine hatch- It is wide and heavy. You need to remove the short ladder coming into the cabin from the cockpit and raise the heavy engine hatch cover by hand. It was secured only by a screen door type of latch on either side that extended into a very, very shallow recess. You could check the engine and Racors at the dock or at anchor, but underway, especially in rough seas (like the night we had water in the fuel and ran aground) it was virtually impossible to open and also ran the risk of the heavy hatch falling on you if you got it open. Quite dangerous.
No manual method to raise or lower keel- There is an electric keel motor that raises and lowers the keel. As long as everything is good and the stars are aligned, it works very well. There is no provision to use a main winch to raise or lower the keel. I had not thought of that when we bought the boat but was told this often by folks helping with the recovery.
Hull construction- The inner hull is bonded directly to the outer hull. This is a good thing as far as interior space goes. The interior of the Blue Dog was huge compared to other 46' vessels. The drawback with this design is it is virtually impossible to repair hull damage without doing both inner and outer fiberglass at the same time. On a typical design boat with stringers, there is a space between the inner liner and outer hull. If you hit something that damages the outer hull, you can pull up a deck hatch/plate and see the damage then repair both sides. With this boat, large interior sections were made in molds then glued to the outer hull. The inner liner actually provided stiffness for the outer hull and are very difficult to repair if damaged.
Fuel tank vent close to the static waterline- This is one of those things that is easy to see after the fact, but not so much when you are buying a boat. I don't know if seawater was sucked into the fuel tank during our trip that caused this accident, but I do believe there is a high probability of that. Also, after getting the Blue Dog on blocks at the marina, I spent a significant amount of time with marine surveyors, Naval Architects, composite material experts and generally salty dogs learning more about all types of boat construction. It was also discovered that there was no "Loop" in the fuel tank vent line. The thru-hull vent line ran directly to the fuel tank. If water got up to the level of the tank vent, it had a non-interrupted path to the tank. That was not something I checked when buying the boat.
Skegs were "tabbed" to the boat- After we were up on blocks and had the opportunity to check out the hull, we could find no support at the aft end of the boat on the hull for the skegs. It appeared as if the hull were laid up and the skegs were "tabbed" to the boat only without any further support, then gel coated over. There was a single stainless "thru bolt" but it did not have backing inside the hull either and was what tore out when we hit the sand allowing seawater into the boat. We were never provided hull construction drawings or any information on how the fiberglass was laid up. We had to take multiple hull samples then send off to a lab to try to figure out what each layer was. Hake offered to do the repair work and for a fairly reasonable price, but had to be at their yard in Florida. We were leery of using them as we had gotten poor support to that point. When we decided to use a local boat yard, Hake was unwilling or unable to provide any construction documents.
Twin engines close to centerline- I was initially excited about having two engines for redundancy and also being able to maneuver in tight spaces as I have driven twin engine boats (Bertram's among others). As both engines fit into the same cavity as a single engine, the props are very close to centerline. This has the effect of having a single engine for maneuvering purposes. Not necessarily a big deal, but it is when you are trying to get into a difficult docking location and running one in forward and the other in reverse does nothing. I would probably go with one engine in the future and spend the money saved on dual Racors and on-board fuel polishing system.
Climb Mast to connect main halyard to main sail- The boom is pretty high which is nice for not getting hit in the head tacking or gybing while in the cockpit. The flip side of this is you need to connect the main halyard _before leaving anchorage or the dock._ This is a good practice to get into anyway, but if you are in a restricted maneuvering environment like the ICW and don't have your main rigged, it is virtually impossible to climb 3 steps up the mast to attach the main halyard if the seas are rough.

That is probably enough. There are other things, but the bottom line is the 46RK is a gorgeous vessel with sleek lines and goes fast. I would not however, classify it as a "Blue Water Cruiser" If your goal is a 46' day sailer with a shoal keel, it might be a good fit.
We have found some local sailors out here on the west coast and started Wednesday night "beer can" races this past week. We looked at used ~35'- 40' boats over the weekend for something to sail while we are deciding what to do next. Hard to say how it will all turn out, but we are much more informed than before and slow to buy another boat. We do like the Hylas 46' and that is top on our current list.


----------



## paulanthony

vwmarshall said:


> That is an excellent question and may shed some light on this whole ordeal&#8230;
> 
> The training period was virtually non-existent. When we were considering different boats at the 2012 boat show in Annapolis, (mostly Catalina's and Beneteau) one of the things that Hake sales team brought up over and over again was that they were small and would offer, "Better service than the big boys." "We'll take very good care of you and ensure you have everything you need. Come on down to Stuart and stay as long as you like." That's an exact quote best as I remember.
> 
> My wife and I own a small engineering consulting business and try to give business to other small companies such as ourselves. We offer personalized services to our clients and assumed Hake would do the same. Especially since they promised this upfront as a selling point. This was however, not the case. We sailed the Blue Dog one time the week after the 2012 Annapolis Show to see how she performed. It was a beautiful day and the boat sailed well. My wife and I decided to put down a deposit to hold the vessel then make the final purchase and pick up the boat in the spring.
> 
> I asked on that day (and many others after that) for an Owner's Manual such that I could study the systems and layout of the vessel over the winter. I'm an ex-Navy Engineer with Nuclear and Fossil Fuel experience and have been sailing for over 30 years. As a former Navy Engineer, you can correctly assume that I'm very anal about being prepared to get underway. I wanted to be as ready as possible for the voyage from Stuart to Norfolk.
> 
> The owner's manual was promised many times but never materialized. I got online and downloaded information on the Yanmar engines and other systems as best as I could to try and put together my own manual. My plan was to go down a month or so before we brought the boat home, get in daily shakedown cruises and learn the systems. After spending a significant amount of time preparing in that fashion, I would make the call whether to employ a delivery skipper to accompany us or do it on our own.
> 
> I asked Hake when was a good time to come down and offered a time window. We agreed on dates and I bought plane tickets for a 10 day period. In short, during that 10 day window, I believe we sailed 3-4 times and only a single time (maybe twice) with anyone from the factory. Once I wrote the final check and took delivery, we were essentially on our own. When I asked for help getting to know this brand new vessel, we were told, "Sorry. Not today. We have demos to do in St. Pete, Clearwater, Jacksonville, Tampa etc."
> 
> In addition, the boat was in an extremely tight area at a small marina in Stuart. It was an excellent marketing location for potential buyers to see the vessel as it was closest to the road, but the water depth was right at keel depth and the bow was resting in the mud when we came in. As a result, the bow thruster was pretty useless until we got into deeper water. Also, there were other boats all around us (including 2 large catamarans) with very little room to maneuver or make mistakes while learning the new boat. The Blue Dog had twin 54 Yanmars, but they were very close to centerline and was like driving with a single engine. A couple times someone would come over from the Hake factory, assist us getting out of this very tight space, then hop off on the next dock and leave. We would be left on our own.
> 
> At that time of the year, the wind changed directions approximately 180 degrees during the course of the day. In the morning, the prevailing winds blew us directly into the dock, which made it difficult to depart. In the afternoon the wind blew away from the dock which made it difficult to return.
> 
> We discovered later that Hake Yachts was sold a few years ago to a fellow who makes artificial sweeteners in the Midwest. That company had an appreciation party for their sales people in the Bahamas about the same time we were in Stuart. The Bahama event appeared to have top priority, not the owners of their expensive new design, Hull #1. The local folks in Stuart were shorthanded and helping the new owners was not at the top of the list.
> 
> After a few days of this behavior, I realized that I did not know the boat well enough and did not feel comfortable making a 1,000 mile trip on our own. I asked Hake for a delivery skipper recommendation and they suggested we use the fellow that delivered boats for them as he knew this vessel the best other than Nick Hake himself. That's what we did.
> 
> I decided not to go out in the open ocean till I was more familiar with the boat, also we did not have a life raft and other items for offshore cruising. That's why we sailed the ICW the entire way.
> 
> I will say, in Hake's defense, we spoke to numerous other Seaward owners before buying this boat and their treatment by the builder was generally positive. Don't know if that was before the ownership change or not. We did not have that same experience.


Hi... Hope time has healed you from the that experience. You got caught in a rapid pit of incidence it seems. So sorry.

However, I have a question also if you don't mind. You mentioned that Blue Dog started to rock and roll and implied that it what a little extraordinary because you had faced worse seas a few days before.

I am assuming this this rocking happened after you lost headway due to your engine failure but were you only running one engine at this time or both?

Was it the failure of the one engine that caused the instability or was this rocking and rolling some other phenomenon? I would have thought that with the port engine running as well you would have have noticed no difference in stability with the props both being centred.

Again. Sorry for your loss.


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## capecodda

Wow, this story rings so true, and is told with such directness that I can only thank vwmarshall for sharing. There are lots of things you did that I've done, and been lucky enough to escape without such consequences. I think about little things like covering the mainsail before reaching the dock. I've done it, but if I lost power, deploying quickly is no longer an option to get out of a pickle. When we get close to home, I get sloppy and perhaps over confident.

I was on a sea trial of a power boat the other day, with a known issue with the anchoring system. No sails a backup, should I have gone, maybe not?

On shoal draft, we had a big Little Harbor center boarder for 10 years. In my neighborhood, shoal is very useful as there are lots of thin water anchorages and docks. Ted Hood did a pretty good job of getting as much weight as low as possible, but still this thing was tender compared to a full keel boat. It's a tradeoff. If you've got deep water, you cannot beat a fixed keel IMHO; however, if you cannot get to your home port, you gotta do what you gotta do.

On new boats, or even new boats to me, we've learned the hard way that something will break early and often during initial voyages. We usually hang close to repair for a few days at least to shake'er down before delivery. That said, after 1000 miles of motoring, an engine failure wouldn't have been on top of my worry list either, particularly with the barn in sight.

Someone else mentioned Morris on delivery of new boats. I can confirm that you can get a much help from a builder like this as you want, and part of their process includes a custom manual describing every system you've specified, maintenance schedules, etc. Of course, I'm biased

Thanks again for the story vwmashall, it's full of great lessons for everyone, including me.


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## shoaldraft

i think I can help answer the question in post #46. As a seaward owner i think what the OP was saying is that he had the keel fully retracted in an attempt to make better headway under power. Hake Yachts often speaks of the benefit of having the keel all the way up while under poet or partway up in light winds in an attempt to reduce drag / friction allowing greater speed.
With the keel fully lowered this boat is quite solid as it moves through the water. You have a solid lead bulb (6'7" for the 32 and 8' for the 46) on the bottom of the centerboard style keel providing this stability. However, with the keel all the way up this boat bounces around quite a bit. This is not the end of the world as you would not have the keel in the fully raised position unless motoring in clam flat water. The OP mentioned that he had been motoring all the way up the ICW and as the boat was new to him was most likely not used to changing the keel depth.


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## vwmarshall

In response to Post #46 and Shoaldraft, the rocking and rolling started when we exited Norfolk Harbor and entered the Chesapeake. It recurred _before_ the engines failed.

If you look at a map of the Southern Chesapeake, the coastline runs East/Southeast from the mouth of Norfolk Harbor to Little Creek, our home port. As wind and seas were from the north, when we we turned out of the Norfolk Harbor, we presented out port beam to the weather. This was the main issue. The keel was fully retracted from 2 weeks in the ICW. We lowered the keel and that helped, but not very much. It was a very rough ride.


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## prroots

I know this thread is kind of old, but it's still very relevant to me. I would like to know which sailboats of vintage 2000 or newer in the 28-32' LOA range offer lifting keels. I've already discovered the following:

Beneteau 31
 Beneteau 311
 Beneteau 323
 Seaward 26RK

I haven't found any Catalinas of that vintage and size range. I'm a prior Wauquiez Hood 38 owner and loved the centerboard/keel of that boat.

Update: I just found a 2009 Southerly 32, but the price is many times outside my budget and it's located in the UK. I'm looking for something on East or Gulf coast USA. Any others please!


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## Faster

If not for your 30 foot limit the Clearwater 35 is a natural candidate.. SNers Fallard and CapnRon47 (IIRC) each sail one. They are also hard to find, of course.
CLEARWATER 35 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com


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## jackdaw

I have experience with several boats with lifting keels and believe the concept is brilliant. For three reasons, 1) Stability 2) Safety 3) Speed.

Both the boats (Beneteau First 260 and Pogo 12.50) are Conq-Finot designs and share a common keel design. A lifting keel that swings back along the bottom when retracted, and is raised and lowered by a screw jack or hydraulic ram.










In both the boats it allows HUGE draft and stability for their length; the First 260 is 7.5m/24.5ft and the Pogo is 12.5m/40ft and they draw 6 feet and 12 feet respectively. This allows for huge performance and would not be possible with a regular keel. JM Finot is a big believer in lots of draft for performance, and it shows in these to boats. They go to wind like a witch and are incredibly stable. And for safety, both designed allow the keel to retract is you ground. Getting off is as simple as raising the keel. Neither boats are design to sail with the keel anywhere but all the way down.

The First 260 is the smaller of our two Firsts (the other a 36.7), raced on Lake Minnetonka. For a 24 foot performance cruiser she is very quick, and planes in 20 knots of wind. We'll fly our big kite on days when many teams use their chicken kites or just their headsails. Good times.






The Pogo 12.50 a boat we charter every year from a friend in Greece. The boat is simply not from this earth. Designed for a couple to sail, it planes in almost any condition. You have to be careful where you go; downwind speeds and cover twice the distance as upwind. Here we go at 15 knots while drinking a cocktail.






Stability, Safety, Speed.


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## prroots

jackdaw said:


> I have experience with several boats with lifting keels and believe the concept is brilliant. For three reasons, 1) Stability 2) Safety 3) Speed.
> 
> Both the boats (Beneteau First 260 and Pogo 12.50) are Conq-Finot designs and share a common keel design. A lifting keel that swings back along the bottom when retracted, and is raised and lowered by a screw jack or hydraulic ram.


Thanks. Interesting boats. Here in the US I've been looking at Beneteau 323, 31, and 311. Do you know how those lifting keels are designed? I've also looked at the Seaward 26RK and have now figured out how it operates. It's more of a daggerboard. These are the only 4 boats I've found here in the US vintage 2000 or newer in the range of 28-32' LOA.


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## prroots

Faster said:


> If not for your 30 foot limit the Clearwater 35 is a natural candidate.. SNers Fallard and CapnRon47 (IIRC) each sail one. They are also hard to find, of course.
> CLEARWATER 35 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com


Thanks. It's getting up there; I'm just now struggling with a 32'


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## jackdaw

prroots said:


> Thanks. Interesting boats. Here in the US I've been looking at Beneteau 323, 31, and 311. Do you know how those lifting keels are designed? I've also looked at the Seaward 26RK and have now figured out how it operates. It's more of a daggerboard. These are the only 4 boats I've found here in the US vintage 2000 or newer in the range of 28-32' LOA.


Well our 260 is here and the USA, and if fortune holds maybe soon a Pogo! ;^)

But to your question, those Beneteaus you note have weighted centerboards that are lowered out of a short keel. A nice overall design. The weight in them is not ballast per se, but simply enough weight to have them sink in water. Their purpose is to add lift. The performance down-side is that it does not help stability by lowering the CG(Center of Gravity) EDIT: NOT CLR as I originaly wrote.

The keels on the boats I mentioned are true keels, designed to lower the CG by having huge amounts of ballast down low.


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## prroots

jackdaw said:


> Well our 260 is here and the USA, and if fortune holds maybe soon a Pogo! ;^)
> 
> But to your question, those Beneteaus you note have weighted centerboards that are lowered out of a short keel. A nice overall design. The weight in them is not ballast per se, but simply enough weight to have them sink in water. Their purpose is to add lift. The performance down-side is that it does not help stability by lowering the CLR (Center of lateral Resistance)
> 
> The keels on the boats I mentioned are true keels, designed to lower the CLR by having huge amounts of ballast down low.


Thanks. I read somewhere that they're made of steel. This is the best drawing I've found, but I need to squint to see it:
http://www.murrayyachtsales.com/wp-...3-Twin-Rudder-Centerboard-Option-Brochure.pdf

Does anyone have links to a better source?


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## mstern

If you will go as big as a 32, Seaward makes the 32RK. My personal favorite. If I win the lottery, that's what I'm buying.


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## prroots

mstern said:


> If you will go as big as a 32, Seaward makes the 32RK. My personal favorite. If I win the lottery, that's what I'm buying.


Thanks. I had the same idea until I checked the LOA. It's 34-7!


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## jackdaw

prroots said:


> Thanks. I had the same idea until I checked the LOA. It's 34-7!


Check how much of the LOA includes the sprit and/or the transom hung rudder.


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## Erindipity

I have a Beneteau First 29 with the twin rudders and the lifting keel. I'm the third owner; the first owner bought it at an Annapolis Boat Show, so it might just be the first First 29 in the US configured this way; it certainly isn't common.
I got a bargain two years back; roughly a third of what they go for in Europe, where they have a fanatical following.

It's tender and squirrelly at first, and then once the boat heels, and a rudder bites, it takes a set. Adjust all the fiddly bits, and there are a few, and I can then just let the tiller go, and go get a cup of tea.

The lifting keel is a great design, but to put it bluntly, poorly implemented. It's that awful Screw mechanism. Mine was broken when I bought it; it took a simple weld on the keel saddle to make it right again. Although the lifting keel only weighs half a ton here, because of the way it's lifted, (~8 inches of thread used, over a complicated series of arcs.), the forces on the screw can measure several tons. Beneteau has given this some thought over the years, and so have a few others, including me. I'm thinking recirculating ball, inside of a rubber boot.

I bought this boat not just because of the French charm, and there is a lot of charm, but because I have, in the past, had a tendency to go aground.
"Erindipity"- I haven't gone aground since, but there is always the next time. If I do go aground, the whole screw mechanism just pops up out of the cabin table. Not much Catastrophe Happens. Note that a certain amount of thump is to be expected when tacking; adjust the snubbers too tight, and something may break.

"The performance down-side is that it does not help stability by lowering the CLR (Center of lateral Resistance)"
I would have to comment on this. Lifting the keel say halfway moves the CLR aft and up, and then I have to mess with the babystay, the backstay, sheeting angles, and whatever, just so that I can then go and get another cup of tea.
Great fun.

¬Erindipity


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## Faster

jackdaw said:


> But to your question, those Beneteaus you note have weighted centerboards that are lowered out of a short keel. A nice overall design. The weight in them is not ballast per se, but simply enough weight to have them sink in water. Their purpose is to add lift. The performance down-side is that it does not help stability by lowering the CLR (Center of lateral Resistance)
> 
> The keels on the boats I mentioned are true keels, designed to lower the CLR by having huge amounts of ballast down low.


Agree with Erendipity's comment on this.

I think there's a bit of terminology confusion here.. lowering the board would certainly affect the CLR - esp if it's not a daggerboard.. but being of no significant weight it may not change the center of gravity or the righting moment overly much. The CLR is about the shape and distribution of a profile plan, which a normal centerboard can affect quite a bit.


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## fallard

Faster said:


> If not for your 30 foot limit the Clearwater 35 is a natural candidate.. SNers Fallard and CapnRon47 (IIRC) each sail one. They are also hard to find, of course.
> CLEARWATER 35 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com


The Clearwater 35 sailboat specs in the link are off a bit and are based on a prospectus that was published before the Clearwater 35's were built. According to the PHRF folks, my Clearwater 35 displaces 12,500 lbs. and according to the builder, the ballast is 5000 lbs of lead.

Note that the last of the 7 Clearwater 35's (mine) was built in 1990, so they don't meet the OPs requirement in that regard. BTW, I have owned my 25 year old Clearwater 35 for the past 20 years and maintain a high opinion of the design and execution. These were semi-custom boats that are a cut above production boats and should last another 25 years with proper care.

A distinguishing feature of the Clearwater 35 is the keel trunk which extends all the way to the coachroof, thereby splitting the main cabin in half, which can be inconvenient. This allows a longer chord on the elliptical keel to provide more lateral resistance than the design of the Beneteau 29, for example. The upside is that the Clearwater 35 will go to weather better than most cruising sailboats. Having inboard shrouds helps there, as well. Another upside is that the Clearwater 35 keel can be completely retracted within the hull lines and you can rest her on the bottom if you care to, like the Southerly's. Note that the Southerly's have a cast iron "shoe" that contacts the bottom in this case, whereas my fiberglass hull would be directly on the bottom.

The Clearwater 35 ballast is comprised of 2500 lbs of lead glassed into the shallow bilge amidships plus 2500 lbs of lead within the leading edge of the swing keel. Thus, when the keel is retracted, the ballast is all at the lowest part of the hull. It may surprise some that the Clearwater 35 is not tender, thanks to the high ballast ratio, form stability, and an overall design for weight discipline. We typically are heeling less than 20° when close hauled.

That said, there seem to be three general types of extreme shoal draft sailboats. there are those with weighted swing keels (e.g., Clearwater, Southerly), weighted daggerboards (e.g., Hake), and a whole lot of centerboarders.

I am partial to the swing keel design. For those times you might miscalculate, having a swing keel that can kick up on hard impact is comforting--if not so good for the fiberglass at point of impact. At least you are not likely to do actual hull damage as you might with the daggerboard arrangement.

If you are seriously in search of an extremely shallow draft boat, you ought to do your research on the various cats and dogs out there. Connect with owners of sister ships if you can. Some are likely to offer to take you out, but you are looking at a small population, so it may not be easy to find one nearby. I strongly recommend that anyone looking at really shallow draft boats do a proper sea test to determine sailing characteristics and that the mechanisms for achieving variable draft are fully understood. Certainly you want a comprehensive and competent survey done and you ought to be there when it is done so you can appreciate the details. To repeat: a sea test under sail is a must.


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## outbound

Yup. They are wonderful and stand in envy given ability to gunk hole and have anchoring possibilities not open to me. But would suggest on sea trials/survey if possible:
Go below and listen to see how much if any noise they make. Particularly when wind and wave direction don't match up.
Examine looking at likelihood they will jam up from gravel or detritus in the slot and ease of clearing.
Examine lifting apparatus and ease of re reefing pendant and such things as maintenance of pin.
Construction of box. Particularly survival if struck laterally.
Never owned one. Experience has been negative. Even on "quality" boats such as Shannon and Hinckley. Still found Boreal very desirable.


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## jackdaw

Faster said:


> Agree with Erendipity's comment on this.
> 
> I think there's a bit of terminology confusion here.. lowering the board would certainly affect the CLR - esp if it's not a daggerboard.. but being of no significant weight it may not change the center of gravity or the righting moment overly much. The CLR is about the shape and distribution of a profile plan, which a normal centerboard can affect quite a bit.


Yes sorry my bad... I was thinking CG (Center of Gravity) and wrote CLR. I corrected my original post. I blame the wine. How much lowering the keel effect the CG is a function of the design and construction.


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## jackdaw

Erindipity said:


> I have a Beneteau First 29 with the twin rudders and the lifting keel. I'm the third owner; the first owner bought it at an Annapolis Boat Show, so it might just be the first First 29 in the US configured this way; it certainly isn't common.
> I got a bargain two years back; roughly a third of what they go for in Europe, where they have a fanatical following.
> 
> It's tender and squirrelly at first, and then once the boat heels, and a rudder bites, it takes a set. Adjust all the fiddly bits, and there are a few, and I can then just let the tiller go, and go get a cup of tea.
> 
> The lifting keel is a great design, but to put it bluntly, poorly implemented. It's that awful Screw mechanism. Mine was broken when I bought it; it took a simple weld on the keel saddle to make it right again. Although the lifting keel only weighs half a ton here, because of the way it's lifted, (~8 inches of thread used, over a complicated series of arcs.), the forces on the screw can measure several tons. Beneteau has given this some thought over the years, and so have a few others, including me. I'm thinking recirculating ball, inside of a rubber boot.
> 
> I bought this boat not just because of the French charm, and there is a lot of charm, but because I have, in the past, had a tendency to go aground.
> "Erindipity"- I haven't gone aground since, but there is always the next time. If I do go aground, the whole screw mechanism just pops up out of the cabin table. Not much Catastrophe Happens. Note that a certain amount of thump is to be expected when tacking; adjust the snubbers too tight, and something may break.
> 
> "The performance down-side is that it does not help stability by lowering the CLR (Center of lateral Resistance)"
> I would have to comment on this. Lifting the keel say halfway moves the CLR aft and up, and then I have to mess with the babystay, the backstay, sheeting angles, and whatever, just so that I can then go and get another cup of tea.
> Great fun.
> 
> ¬Erindipity


Erindipity,

Great stuff. I think I remember seeing ads for your boat when it was for sale. A nice design for sure, I think the last masthead First that JM Finot did for Beneteau.

The 29 was probably the biggest boat that Bene used the mechanical screw on. Even the smaller First Class 7.5 and the First 27.0 use the hydraulic hand pump version which is very nice.

Part of your issues are probably to due with the old screw design you have. The new one is larger diameter and crucially has the screw turned upside down. The nut is now on the bottom and the screw turns into it from the top. This keeps the whole system safe, dry and lubed. It is also re-geared to take 100 turns with more bearing surface so it is much easier to do.

Regarding grounding, you are right it's safe and easy. However the new boats have a replaceable fuse at the top of the crank. Hit softly and you rock on the keel, ram hard and the fuse pops and the crank comes up. In either case its easy to resolve, just crank up to clear and them carry on.

PS - The comment re CLR (and I meant CG!) was talking about centerboard boats, not lifting keels like ours.


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## prroots

With respect to the Beneteau 311, 323, and 31, where is the ballast located? It seems that the lift keel is implemented as a steel box bolted to underside of hull in which lift keel lives. My impression is that the primary purpose of the lift keel is to reduce leeway (ie, provide lift) and not add ballast. This raises the question as to where the ballast is located. Does anyone know? Also does anyone have operational experience with these boats as to reliability and maintainability of lift keel? Thanks.


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## jackdaw

prroots said:


> With respect to the Beneteau 311, 323, and 31, where is the ballast located? It seems that the lift keel is implemented as a steel box bolted to underside of hull in which lift keel lives. My impression is that the primary purpose of the lift keel is to reduce leeway (ie, provide lift) and not add ballast. This raises the question as to where the ballast is located. Does anyone know? Also does anyone have operational experience with these boats as to reliability and maintainability of lift keel? Thanks.


Thats pretty much correct. The lifting part of the keel is part of the ballast, as it it iron and rests in a slot in the fixed iron shoal keel. Lowered, it offers more lift and thus resistance from slip when going to windward. I doubt the stability get any better with it down. I have a friend that never puts his down and lives with the decrease in windward ability. Most of the ballast is in the fixed portion.


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## prroots

jackdaw said:


> Thats pretty much correct. The lifting part of the keel is part of the ballast, as it it iron and rests in a slot in the fixed iron shoal keel. Lowered, it offers more lift and thus resistance from slip when going to windward. I doubt the stability get any better with it down. I have a friend that never puts his down and lives with the decrease in windward ability. Most of the ballast is in the fixed portion.


Thanks. Which of the above 3 models are you referring to? Today we visited a 2005 Beneteau 323. The broker claimed the lifting keel was made of fiberglass over foam and stainless steel? He said the construction was just like the twin rudders. I wonder if he knew what he was talking about! The boat was in the water so we didn't get to inspect keel.


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## prroots

outbound said:


> Never owned one. Experience has been negative. Even on "quality" boats such as Shannon and Hinckley. Still found Boreal very desirable.


We owned the Wauquiez Hood 38 with centerboard/keel. It was our 'dream boat' and is one of the reasons we are so positive when it comes to centerboard/lift keel designs. Everything is a tradeoff, but in our mind the benefits far outweigh the negatives.


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## fallard

outbound said:


> Examine looking at likelihood they will jam up from gravel or detritus in the slot and ease of clearing.
> Examine lifting apparatus and ease of re reefing pendant and such things as maintenance of pin.
> Construction of box. Particularly survival if struck laterally.
> Never owned one. Experience has been negative. Even on "quality" boats such as Shannon and Hinckley. Still found Boreal very desirable.


Lightweight centerboard a have a reputation for jamming, as outbound implies. Weighted keels are another matter. My weighted swing keel weighs about 3000 lbs and has never stuck in the 20 years I've owned my Clearwater 35. The weight can be used to advantage: when coming into my shallow water dock in a strong crosswind, I routinely drop the keel into the soft mud as a temporary "anchor" while I secure the dock lines.

My lifting mechanism is a 6:1 purchase block and tackle arrangement inside the keel trunk. There is an access port that allows me to change out the pennant when needed. The primary lift force is provided by an electric winch on the coachroof. The keel pin is 1 1/2" SS, which I have changed out to 316 from 304 to work around pitting by the seals. Did that 15 years ago.

The keel is lowered by gravity and is not restrained from kicking up on frontal impact by the lifting mechanism. I was initially uncomfortable with that, but have become very comfortable that this will isolate the hull and trunk structure from serious damage from a hard impact.

The keel trunk is very intrusive in the main cabin--a disadvantage when on the hook or at the dock, but provided plenty of bracing opportunities when you are moving around in a seaway. The advantage of the massive trunk is the tank-like structural integrity of the Clearwater 35. I believe this arrangement will take a keel impact from any direction better than a fixed keel with respect to associated hull damage. Overall, the Clearwater 35 gives up cabin space for this compromise, which I find very acceptable.

Finally, I have not had any really negative experiences with my Clearwater 35 lift keel arrangement. Not sure what experience outbound is referring to, other than the traditional centerboard issues. To that, I would say that a lifting keel (weighted daggerboard or swing keel) would be differentiated from centerboard designs by the contained ballast and stronger supporting structure. Those differences can be huge.


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## Faster

I've always admired the Clearwater 35, great lines, good performance, probably as close to the 'best of both worlds' you can get in that size range. Shame so few were built.

I know my wife would not be impressed by the trunk's influence on the interior.. but your point, fallard, about the massive structural strength gained by combining the hull, trunk and deck structure into essentially one unit makes a ton of sense. Combined with the stress-relief of the keel lifting on its own, I'd think the typical hull flex that pops stringer and floor tabbing is far less likely to occur. Esp in your skinny water part of the world that must be a positive thing day-to-day (not suggesting you routinely run into things, though )


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## hannah2

One thing of importance with a centerboarder is that you should have the centerboard down when coming into a dock. I know on our Boreal she handles a whole lot better with center board down. But leaving a slip always be sure you know your water depth because if you hit the center board on the bottom in reverse you can do some pretty serious damage to the board. The board only has a few inches in the front of it before it will hit the front of the center board box. I know we put a ding in the board by backing into shallow water but could have done some serious damage with a little more speed in reverse. We now lift the center board up just a bit so if we do hit bottom with it we hit more in the front bottom part with the curve of the bottom of the center board. This way it does not push the bottom of the center board towards the bow and the front of the center board box.


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## fallard

Faster said:


> Combined with the stress-relief of the keel lifting on its own, I'd think the typical hull flex that pops stringer and floor tabbing is far less likely to occur. Esp in your skinny water part of the world that must be a positive thing day-to-day (not suggesting you routinely run into things, though )


Not only does the Clearwater 35 have a substantial "spine" by virtue of the keel trunk, but there is a substantial grid structure reinforcing the hull. Furthermore, the furniture forms multiple longitudinal and athwart structure that is tabbed to hull and deck. This boat has an incredibly stiff structure.

The danger with the extreme shoal draft is that you can find yourself in shallow areas that are not accurately charted. I routinely approach such areas with the keel partially retracted to provide early warning of an impending hull contact with the bottom. I have sanded off bottom paint from the leading edge of the partially retracted keel and rudder, but have avoided the hull having hard contact with the bottom for the past 20 years.

My shallow water dock has 2 1/2 ft. At MLW. When the tides are more extreme, I can find the water depth is less than my draft with everything retracted. Sometimes I'll cut it close and find myself sliding along the mud for a short distance. In this case, I can just drop the keel and wait an hour before proceeding.


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## fallard

hannah2 said:


> One thing of importance with a centerboarder is that you should have the centerboard down when coming into a dock. I know on our Boreal she handles a whole lot better with center board down. But leaving a slip always be sure you know your water depth because if you hit the center board on the bottom in reverse you can do some pretty serious damage to the board. The board only has a few inches in the front of it before it will hit the front of the center board box. I know we put a ding in the board by backing into shallow water but could have done some serious damage with a little more speed in reverse. We now lift the center board up just a bit so if we do hit bottom with it we hit more in the front bottom part with the curve of the bottom of the center board. This way it does not push the bottom of the center board towards the bow and the front of the center board box.


I will have as much keel and rudder down as the tide allows as I approach my dock. However, with a draft of ~2' and MLW of 2.5' at the dock, that doesn't allow much of anything hanging below the whaleback hull shape (there is no vestigial keel on my boat: the keel retracts completely within the hull lines). At low water, my rudder is also lifted.

As hannah knows, your maneuverability goes south under these conditions. Add a cross wind that wants to blow you off the dock, and it can be challenging. Under these conditions, I approach the dock slowly and at an angle and fair out my "landing". As I close in on the dock I drop my 3000 lb keel into the soft mud (aka "black mayonnaise") and then secure the dock lines. No harm done!

As the tide comes in I will then turn the boat around at the dock by hand, using the cross wind to advantage. That way, I will leave the dock going forward, which is really important at low water. I don't think I have ever gotten into a situation where the keel or rudder contacted the bottom while backing and I intend to maintain my record.

Hannah has identified the one disadvantage to extreme shoal sailboats (when in shoal mode) and that is the inability to support maneuverability in close quarters. You really need that keel (and rudder down) to be able to turn on a dime. Of course, you don't sail to weather without substantial keel, either!


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## outbound

Find Hannah's comment of interest. Is the boat squirrelly backing up under power? Otherwise why not just leave it up when backing down? Don't worry be happy.

As said my experience is limited pretty much to hinckley's and Shannon's. Was on friends boat in Chessie. Don't recall ever running aground while moving or settling on the bottom when still. However, when we left Annapolis to go back to mass it became clear board wouldn't drop. Left channel and anchored. In spite of multiple attempts including diving couldn't be cleared. When boat was eventually hauled was told there was gravel above the top of the board by the pin end jamming front of board against housing. With pin and board removed gravel was cleared. 
Did several Marion to Bermudas as crew on different Hinckley's. Mostly B40 once on a 59'. Either with board all the way down or partial for sailplan balance they would develop a seemingly random clunk. Most commonly if the swell was running different then the wind waves. Couldn't get use to it. Worried about it even after told it was normal so sleep was hard.
Friend had a whale bottom Hood. Drop dead beautiful boat. He bitched that board was difficult to service.
Among issues boat needed to be put in slings to be raised enough to get at all of it. Tied up travelift. Needed big travel lift to get up high. 
Still like the ideal of an internally ballasted boat that will slide off a wave front without tripping with the board up in a storm. Like the ideal of decreasing wetted surface going DDW in light air. 
Much good to say for them.
Don't quite understand the terminology. Always thought a lifting keel was a fin or fin and bulb lifted by hydraulics or such like you see on K&Ms, a keel/centerboard was what you saw on Shannons and a centerboard was what you saw on Pogos and daggerboards had no significant weight but went straight up and down like you see on Catanas or the back of Boreals.


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## outbound

Was typing when when Fallard posted. Understand. Tx.


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## Faster

Had a friend (yikes... sounding like Brent now )... anyhoo, bought one of those MacGregor 26Xs, lift keel, lift rudders, bigass outboard. Went out with him and noticed he pulled board and rudders up before docking under power. Asked him why and suggested he leave them down unless going onto a trailer. He was pretty astounded by the difference in handling with everything down.

Those boats drive me nuts, but they do get people out on the water.


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## fallard

outbound said:


> Still like the ideal of an internally ballasted boat that will slide off a wave front without tripping with the board up in a storm.


Hadn't thought about tripping on the keel until Barret Holby mentioned that you might want to retract the keel of the Clearwater 35 completely if that was a concern. His logic: "Ever see a log capsize?"

With the Clearwater 35 the ballast is comprised of 2500 lbs of lead glassed into the very slack bilge port and starboard near the keel trunk. Another 2500 lbs of lead is encapsulated within the leading edge of the fiberglass keel, as shown in purple in the thumbnail.

When the keel is completely retracted, you have all of the ballast low within the hull lines.


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## outbound

You have a very nice boat Fallard. For our lifestyle a bit small. Want to clock 180-200m days. As Bob says nothing like lwl. The one that fascinates me is a mix of the archaic and cutting edge. That being the smaller of the Nigel Irons fusion schooners.


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## hannah2

Outbound,

The Boreal does very well when backing out of a slip with the center board up. Just put some power to her and she goes in reverse as strait as an arrow. When we launched RC LOUISE the designer was at the helm and backed her for at least 100 yds to where he had room to turn. I was never happier in my entire life to see that I finally owned a boat that backs up strait. But as Fallard says, if there is a cross wind look out at such slow speeds like when one is docking. Drop below 2 knots speed and the wind will take her, especially her ass end. I've learned my lesson! We do often back out with center board up but in the trades where we sail all the time the wind blows most of the time and so that is not always an option. 

Hey and another thing about owning a center board boat is when marinas are full we always find a spot over in the shallow end of the marina where deep draft boats can't go. A couple times now we have not even had to pay because no one else could use the space and the marinas were nice enough to give us the spot. Problem was everyone in their slips start yelling, "stop you are going to run a ground" as we motored to our slip. 

Fallard, you have some nifty ideas to use up your way. I'll keep those in mind.

Cheers.


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## fallard

outbound said:


> You have a very nice boat Fallard. For our lifestyle a bit small. Want to clock 180-200m days. As Bob says nothing like lwl.


There are times I wish my boat were bigger, both inside and along the waterline, but life is full of compromises. This is the biggest sailboat I could find and afford that will float at my dock at a normal low tide. BTW, my best time in transit was 72 hours for the 540 miles from Ft. Pierce to Beaufort, NC, but the Gulf Stream probably had something to do with getting 180 miles/day on average for 3 days. The motor was only on for 3 hours during that leg.

Boat speed is only one of the factors in boating. Having the boat 150 feet from my front door is very convenient and I keep that in mind when dealing with the smallish interior.

You might appreciate the convenience of having your boat close by from the thumbnail showing the view from my front porch. Bigger is not always better, though. Can you imagine trying to get a bigger boat underway from my dock to the channel ~400' away in the second thumbnail?


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## outbound

That is way cool. Flip is living on the thing for months on end when every bit of space is appreciated. Life is comprise. Seems like we are both blessed being able to comprise about boat issues. Has sobering experience today making think about how blessed we are.


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## fallard

hannah2 said:


> Hey and another thing about owning a center board boat is when marinas are full we always find a spot over in the shallow end of the marina where deep draft boats can't go.


We had an incident a few years ago while motoring dead upwind toward Cuttyhunk--that was, until my professionally-rebuilt raw water pump stopped pumping. I tried beating against an increasingly foul current, but it was obvious that we wouldn't make the harbor until well after dark.

Well, time for SeaTow, who took us under tow 6 miles out. The tow skipper asked me what my plan was, since there were no moorings in inner or outer harbors, the anchorage was pretty full, and there were no more "sailboat slips" at the one and only Town Dock. That's when I told him I could float in 2' and could go anywhere he could take me. I was prepared to anchor in shallow water, but he got me the last open dock space, which had 3' at low tide.

Working from the dock the next morning made all the difference. Once I identified the problem, I had local help to identify a parts source on the mainland (New Bedford) and arrange for pick up by the local water taxi operator who was making a run that morning. I had parts in hand and had completed the repair by lunchtime.


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## prroots

I'm really favoring one of the Beneteau's with lift keel configuration (ie, 311, 323, and 31). I've been searching for awhile to find out how the keel is designed from both an operational and material standpoint. Specifically I'd like to know:


It uses a screw to raise and lower the lift keel but is there also a cable involved?
What happens when you run hard aground? Is there a sacrificial element? If so, can it be reset?
What is the material of construction of keel (trunk) and lift keel? I read somewhere that it's cast iron with epoxy coating

Any Beneteau owners out there who can answer the above?


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## Barquito

Here is another lifting keel boat:

The C&C Mega 30. And it's trailerable.


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## jackdaw

Barquito said:


> Here is another lifting keel boat:
> 
> The C&C Mega 30. And it's trailerable.


A decent boat if you can stand the looks of it.


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## prroots

Today I'll be looking at my first Beneteau 31 with lift keel in order to compare against the Beneteau 323. While it's a lot newer it does seem to have 2 downsides compared to the 323:

Reduced headroom (5-10 compared to 6-2)
 Deeper draft (3-1 compared to 2-7)

On the positive side, the Nav Station seems to allow for addition of future (yet to be determined) electronics while the 323 has very limited capability for future additions.

Update: Viewed the 31 as planned. All of the above proved true. All other things equal, I prefer the 323. Of course, all other things are never equal :wink


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## tweitz

prroots --

Sorry, I have not been on for a week or two, so I missed your questions. I have a couple of documents describing the lifting keel mechanism that would be happy to email to you if you PM me. I have a great Beneteau brochure on the lifting keel in .pdf format, which Sailnet does not accept as an upload format. As I mentioned a while ago, I love my Beneteau 323. We have touched bottom with the lifting keel down and it simply kicks back with no damage. The one time we hit really hard, it sprayed a drop of grease out of the trunk in the cabin. We have also run aground on a sandy bottom a couple of times -- our channel is totally unmarked, and the sandbar moves ever year. We have had no ill effect whatsoever. The twin rudder setup is something particularly nice. The keel is cast iron with epoxy. Raising and lowering the keel requires more patience than strength. It is 100 turns, generally the job of the admiral. Only annoying when single handing. Of course unless the wind is quite lively, I often just leave it up. There is a slight penalty in leeway, but the boat handles fine, and I have never seen a boat that tracks any better.


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## Cande

Beautifully filmed!


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## Faster

Cande said:


> Beautifully filmed!


Huh? What film?


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## justflie

For those looking into Southerly yachts, check out distantshores.ca. The Shards sail all over the world in their Southerly 49. They love it. They also had a Southerly 42 (and originally a boat they built themselves). I love the idea of a lifting keel, it really gives you some flexibility in the shoal areas. The Shards even went on river and canal/lock trips with their 49 foot sailboat! For anyone who knows boats, it must have been quite a surprise to see a vessel that large transiting such shallow waterways. I think they draw only 3 feet (maybe a little less) with the keel retracted. Also, since Southerly is a UK company, the boat is also designed to sit on its bottom and dry out. Very cool. I'm a big fan of the concept, the Southerly boats, and the Shards.


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## Faster

The Tanzer 10.5 is another mid 30 foot lift keel boat.. not many made; not bad looking for the type (quasi pilothouse) and I think they did a good job of limiting the intrusion of the trunk into the accomodation.

TANZER 10.5 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com


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## Waterrat

I have always liked the Tartan 27, 34, and 37. I really dig the the 34.


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## monk

I own a 2015 Seaward 26rk, with a Draft Range of 15"-6'. The 1200 lbs. lead torpedo on the end of the keel provides great ballast at all keel depths. I wouldn't own anything else for lake and coastal cruising. The advantages of dealing with shallow water are obvious, but other pluses such as easy trailering and storage make it a delight.


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## mstern

Hey Monk, what do you hear from the good folks at Seaward? I haven't seen or heard anything from them (or IP for that matter) at any of the boat shows since the big announcement. The 32RK is my dream ride, so I'm hoping that all is well.


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## albrazzi

Cool underwater of the S42. Thought I'd share.


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## Arcb

Faster said:


> The Tanzer 10.5 is another mid 30 foot lift keel boat.. not many made; not bad looking for the type (quasi pilothouse) and I think they did a good job of limiting the intrusion of the trunk into the accomodation.
> 
> TANZER 10.5 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com


We were docked beside a Tanzer 10.5 in the 1000 Islands a couple of times this summer. Very nice boat, I think the owner told me 22" draft keel and rudder up, which I though was pretty amazing for a 35' boat.

She was a good looking boat, and spacious too.


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## monk

mstern said:


> Hey Monk, what do you hear from the good folks at Seaward? I haven't seen or heard anything from them (or IP for that matter) at any of the boat shows since the big announcement. The 32RK is my dream ride, so I'm hoping that all is well.


Hey Mstern... I think they are all settled in over on the the Florida west coast. I had a quick text chat with Nick Hake a couple weeks ago, and recently had an email from Jessica in sales about a reference. Anyway, I am not sure about their presence at this year's boat shows, but I visited them last winter at the St. Pete show. They had all three Seawards in the water. The 32rk is my dream boat, as well. I almost bought a used one last year in Venice/Sarasota, FL. (incredibly equipped), but decided to get a new 26rk to keep here in VT on Lake Champlain. It's quite a bit easier and cheaper to own and manage.

Nick Hake sold the company to another guy, who also acquired IP, but Nick is still very involved in design, etc. He's a great guy, and a sort of sailing hero of mine. He spent a couple nights up here, and we became friends. He's a brilliant designer who doesn't cut corners. I think the Seaward yachts are some of the most underestimated on the market.


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## SVAuspicious

monk said:


> Nick Hake sold the company to another guy, who also acquired IP


Ted Gelov I believe.


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## mstern

I've been impressed with them too. I met Nick at either Miami or Newport several years ago, and I met Jessica at Newport last year. The 32RK caught my eye at the Miami boat show a number of years ago, and I've been a huge fan ever since. I must say that I'm not a big fan of the 46; that Star Trek captain's chair set up is not for me (although I do see the appeal).


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