# An Observation



## brehm62 (Mar 27, 2011)

I recall about 40 years ago swimming at Lake Sullivan and seeing someone take out a Sunfish. A friend of mine who lives in Ohio said that they used to rent Sunfish at Acton Lake at Hueston Woods State Park. They don't anymore; they just rent canoes and paddle boats.

When I took my boat down to the ramp last Sunday the people there were surprised; they said they had never seen a sailboat on that lake. When I took it out again on Tuesday I noticed that the bass boats that were going in or coming out made circles around my boat to get a look at it. I mentioned to the woman at the gate that the others had been surprised to see my boat the last time I was there. She told me that seven years earlier her father-in-law had bought a sailboat and had taken it downwind to the far end of the lake and then been unable to sail back upwind. He had to call for a tow. Apparently after that he got rid of the boat. She said she hadn't seen one on the lake since then.

My boat was built in 1980. I noticed when I did the poll a few days ago that the great majority of sailboats here are over 20 years old. One might draw the conclusion that sailing is dramatically in decline. I'm finding that rather sad. It's also rather odd. If a 32 year boat like mine that is still only partially repaired draws interest then one would assume that people do like sailboats. However, I'm thinking that two things are probably blocking this. The first is that with a boat even the size of mine the mast is not that easy to raise. You can't just drop it in the water and go; it takes time to setup. Secondly, apparently sailing is not that intuitive for most people. I'm sure most people understand the tiller but I guess all that fabric and those pulleys and sheets are not so obvious.

Is sailing in decline? Is there anything that people do to try to encourage new sailors?


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## dnf777 (Jun 23, 2007)

Hard to answer in economic times like this. Lots of things are "down", but only temporarily, until people get more comfortable spending their disposable income. Or get any disposable income.

I took my 15' Precision to my local lake and inquired about a dry mooring spot. The park ranger was excited and said this was like the "good ol days" when there were sailboats on the lake. Haven't been any for years he told me.

I don't know. My other hobby, ham radio, seems in decline also. We all try to get a kid interested, and hopefully revive the numbers.


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## justflie (Apr 10, 2012)

I think as always, "it depends." I'm just learning to sail now (27 years old). I was introduced to it through a Groupon late last season. The club did another groupon a week ago and got a huge response. That's a good sign. It's a great way to get younger folks interested in sailing. While many will take the 2 hour sailing lesson and never come back, some will be introduced to sailing and fall in love as I have. And I'm dragging my wife along with me


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

We now live in a world of immediate gratification. Sailboats are the polar opposite of that (until you master it and realize that the reward is the journey, not the destination).

I've had countless people stop at my boat on the dock and say, "I've always wanted a sailboat, but I don't know how to sail." My unspoken answer is, "go and learn." But the time it takes to get lessons, or even read a book, is more than most people want to invest these days. One of these days they will hit me at just the right time when I'm getting ready to head out, and I'll be able to say, "Hop on, I'll show you how."


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

I think it depends. I'm not sure that you can look at a lake and make that determination. When I first joined one of my sail clubs weekly sails at the lake and monthly races were quite popular. Now we're hard-pressed to get boats on the lake. However, when we have trips scheduled on the Chesapeake we get a good turnout even though that means a 2.5-hour trip for most of them vs. 15 minutes to the lake.

I just returned from a charter in the BVI and someone down there commented that he could tell the economy was getting better because he was seeing more monohulls on the water. 

So maybe people's preferred cruising grounds are just shifting.


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## CBinRI (May 17, 2004)

brehm62 said:


> I recall about 40 years ago swimming at Lake Sullivan and seeing someone take out a Sunfish. A friend of mine who lives in Ohio said that they used to rent Sunfish at Acton Lake at Hueston Woods State Park. They don't anymore; they just rent canoes and paddle boats.
> 
> When I took my boat down to the ramp last Sunday the people there were surprised; they said they had never seen a sailboat on that lake. When I took it out again on Tuesday I noticed that the bass boats that were going in or coming out made circles around my boat to get a look at it. I mentioned to the woman at the gate that the others had been surprised to see my boat the last time I was there. She told me that seven years earlier her father-in-law had bought a sailboat and had taken it downwind to the far end of the lake and then been unable to sail back upwind. He had to call for a tow. Apparently after that he got rid of the boat. She said she hadn't seen one on the lake since then.
> 
> ...


The numbers would support that sailing is in decline. Part of it probably atributable to the decreasing attention span of people in this age. The internet and television have made people either unwilling or unable to concentrate on anything for more than a few minutes. Kids don't listen to "albums" anymore. They listen to single songs. They tend to gravitate toward what is easy. Why take weeks, months and years to learn the complexities of sailing when you can turn the ignition and go on a stinkpot?

But sailing will not die. It offers things that powerboating does not. The fact that you actually have to think about what you're doing makes it a much better stress relief than stinkpotting (not to mention the quietness and comparatively comfortable motion of a sailboat). Also, ever try to have a conversation over a loud powerboat engine?

These things tend to be cyclical. I suspect that sailing will come back in terms of popularity, as gas continues to get more expensive and the world continues to get more technical and more stressful. There is not a more potent relief for stress, in my opinion.

In terms of encouraging youngs sailors, take them sailing. Give them tasks to perform, where possible and safe. Bring them along on a race, if possible. Make your kids take lessons. Despite the resistance they may initially show, the chances are good that they will end up loving it.


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## brehm62 (Mar 27, 2011)

From the comments so far it seems confirmed that sailing is indeed in decline. What surprises me though is that no one has suggested the real reasons. The economy? No. Cyclic? No.

Rental: canoe, pedal boat, rowboat, sailboat.
Cost new
Pedal boat: $500
Canoe: $500
Aluminum Jon boat: $700
Sunfish $4,300

Typical rental for canoe, pedal boat, or rowboat: $10-$20/hour
To match this, Sunfish rental would need to be: $80/hour. Clearly no one would rent at this price and a lower rate would not be a good investment. For comparison, you can rent a pontoon boat that carries 15 passengers for $206/day. Even if you paid $1,000 for pedal boats and canoes you could not charge $40/hour to rent a Sunfish.

At the Eagle Creek Reservoir near Indianapolis I see that they do rent Sunfish at $20 for 2 hours. This is the same price they charge for kayaks and rowboats so obviously they are subsidizing the cost of the Sunfish with the other boats.

Fishing.
Aluminum Jon boat: $700
Typical bass boat: $2,000
15 HP outboard: $2,000

For the cost of a Sunfish you could have a reasonably good bass boat and outboard. However, the difference in utility is huge. Clearly a Sunfish is not a good value.

The other big difference is skill. Even if you spend $6,000 on a bass boat it is obvious how to operate it. This is not the case with a sailboat. You have to know how to set it up and how to sail it; it is far less intuitive and less convenient. And, this gets worse as the size of the sailboat increases.

It surprises me that so often the Sunfish is considered an entry level boat. It is in terms of ease of use and utility but not in terms of price. I noticed that Eagle Creek rents a kayak with an auxiliary sail so that you don't have to know how to sail to make it back to the dock. That's not a bad idea. The cost for that would be around $1,700 which is less than half the cost of a Sunfish.

There are better options though:

11' Snark sailing dinghy - $1,200, can handle 330 lbs so easily one adult and one child.

8' Walker Bay dinghy: $850
8' sail kit: $850
8' sailing dinghy - $1,700, can handle 425 lbs so easily two adults or one adult and two children.

8' inflatable tube: $800
increased stability 8' sailing dinghy - $2,500

10' Walker Bay dinghy: $1,300, 449 lbs
10' sail kit: $1,100
10' sailing dinghy - $2,400

10' inflatable tube $1,000, capacity 562 lbs so easily three adults or two adults and two children.
10' high performance sail kit: $1,750
higher capacity and stability 10' sailing dinghy - $4,050

If someone really wanted a Sunfish type boat it seems to me that the Snark would be a much better value. It is also clear that a Walker Bay can be bought for less than a Sunfish and that even when the price is close you have considerably more value. A Walker Bay can be rowed, motored, or sailed.

And, yet, I have never seen any place renting Walker Bays nor have I ever heard of anyone suggesting a Walker Bay as a first sailboat. I don't understand that. Clearly a boat like this has the low cost, ease of moving, and ease of setup that an entry level sailor would need. And, it has utility beyond its use as a sailboat.

Is there a general bias among sailors against boats like these? What would someone here _honestly_ recommend as a first sailboat?


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## zeta (Dec 29, 2010)

How about a Walker Bay:

Walker Bay 10 plastic dinghy, yacht tender, sail boat, trailer


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

brehm62 said:


> Is there a general bias among sailors against boats like these? What would someone here _honestly_ recommend as a first sailboat?


yes. A used Sunfish or a used Laser. More capacity, a Lido 14', Flying Junior, or similar... And used. Maybe a Hobie 14.... Again, used. Fiberglass makes older boats a sensible and viable option for casual day sailing and learning .


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## brehm62 (Mar 27, 2011)

puddinlegs said:


> yes. A used Sunfish or a used Laser. More capacity, a Lido 14', Flying Junior, or similar... And used. Maybe a Hobie 14.... Again, used. Fiberglass makes older boats a sensible and viable option for casual day sailing and learning .


One might note that all of your examples are racing boats. Why?


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

The cost of sailboats and equipment has got to be a large negative factor in these times. It is taking a long time for sailboat equipment to come down from the ridiculous levels they attained through the last twenty years. Things like shackles: material cost to produce, maybe $2, labor, 10$, retail price $80. Who do they think they're kidding? Are people THAT stupid to pay those kinds of prices? There are some signs of common sense though. I just bought a new LED reg/green 2 mile bow light for <$70. A couple of years ago LED fixtures were all $200. I would have liked to have bought a masthead tricolor but these pieces of $20 plastic are $400+ what the h..!!


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

brehm62 said:


> One might note that all of your examples are racing boats. Why?


A Sunfish wasn't/isn't really a race boat, but that doesn't mean it isn't raced. Lasers because an old used one is very reasonable and is a nicely responsive boat for developing 'feel'. When it's raced (not an old one mind you), you can sail with and against a lot of great sailors in most locations... It's a great boat if you're interested in steepening your learning curve and works fine if you're just into putzing around on a nice summer day.

Lido, well yes, they're raced, but I've never thought of them as a race boat. An O'day Widgeon is a great 2 person boat to learn on as well. I've always thought of them as similar in terms of performance. FJ's; again, relatively responsive, used ones are cheap, and are a good learning platform.

My thoughts are why learn in a boat that doesn't reward good skill development? A boat like the Walker Bay is a tender with a sail. If you said you had a Walker Bay built 'Minto', you'd have a great little sailboat that happens to make a nice tender. If you're sailing in a heavy, slow, unresponsive small boat that gives relatively little feedback, how do you know if you're learning to sail, or just out on the water in a sailboat? All the boats I mentioned can be very rewarding to sail in terms of monitoring your own progress and having access to good class information, help, etc... The boats I've mentioned can work for an out and out beginner and for much more experienced sailors. The Hobie? It's just fun and easy to drag up and down the beach.

Slightly larger, a Rhodes 19, a FlyingScot, Lightenings, and the like.

Someone posted a while back that they were a beginner and were looking at an old Finn to learn on. It's most certainly not an appropriate boat for a beginner as it requires strength, flexibility, and a good skill set to be managed safely. Nor would a Moth, 49'er, 470, 505, I-14, Fireball, etc... Those are all dedicated high performance race dingys.


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## Mark1948 (Jun 19, 2007)

While it has been since the late 60s that I have been near Acton Lake, I sailed a couple of time in a Sunfish rental also in a NROTC Dinghy. So yes the did rent. I had a couple of interesting experiences regarding sunfish stability and how to move about in a small boat.


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## brehm62 (Mar 27, 2011)

puddinlegs said:


> My thoughts are why learn in a boat that doesn't reward good skill development?


Reward how exactly? Most people would be happy to be able to get the boat to move where they wanted it to. What else are you referring to, getting the boat to plane, pushing the edge of performance without capsizing, or are you only talking about being able to beat someone else?


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## brehm62 (Mar 27, 2011)

I've found a good example of a plans built, general purpose dinghy, Janette, by John Welsford.

He says that the original design, Jane, was popular and he sold 100 plans. However, for this derivative he says:

_The aim here was to reorient the boat from a rowing boat that would sail, and carry an outboard at a pinch to a sailing boat that would row, and ditto for the eggbeater. She sails well, well enough to get out and enjoy racing in a club dinghy fleet._

Okay, I guess I couldn't argue with that. A sailboat you could row would be better than a rowboat you could sail. So, if a Walker Bay is a better rowboat than a sailboat then that probably is not as good.


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

brehm62 said:


> Reward how exactly? Most people would be happy to be able to get the boat to move where they wanted it to. What else are you referring to, getting the boat to plane, pushing the edge of performance without capsizing, or are you only talking about being able to beat someone else?


It sounds like you're misunderstanding where I'm coming from. My comments nave nothing to do with beating anyone. If you're interested in racing, it's a great way to learn to sail a boat, but if not, that's absolutely fine as well. Sailing with other boats of similar design at the same time is very valuable for understanding the nuances of sail trim.

This is not only related to speed, but most importantly stability, safety, and maneuvering with confidence and precision in a variety of conditions. These are areas that people who've learned/sailed a lot in small boats like those mentioned above excel at and take their skill sets with them to keel boats. This makes for confident docking/general boat handling, sailing in various wind and sea conditions, etc...This is my case for sailing small boats that provide 'feedback'.

I'm of the mind that a Laser is a great boat exactly because it can be sailed by a wide variety of people and ability levels. It's not a family day sailor which is why I mentioned something like the Rhodes 19 which is a great safe family boat that can be had for pennies on the dollar of buying something new. A little bigger and I'd add a Pearson Ensign to the list which is hardly a performance boat, but sails very nicely... unlike a Walker Bay dingy linked above. If the boats mentioned aren't your cuppa, that's fine as well. You mentioned several boats that you might be happy with. I just prefer those with a little better sailing performance for the reasons above and am certainly not 'proscribing' anything to you or anyone else... other than not to try to learn to sail in a Finn if there are other boats that could be used.


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## SoOkay (Nov 27, 2004)

Seven years ago the marinas around us had waiting lists. I remember one telling me it would be 3-5 years for a slip. Now I know some (I would assume many) have slips available. 

I believe it's just a reflection of the economic situation.


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## Mormandeus (Jun 25, 2011)

Up here in New Brunswick sailing seems to have a building popularity. Especially in the fresh water areas like mine with 20 to 26 ft boats the norm. Powerboats seem to be on the decline though


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## benajah (Mar 28, 2011)

I think a lot of things are factors in this. First off, prior to the 60s, lake and river people primarily used canoes and pokeboats. Sailing went through a popular phase where sailing got popular on lakes, and you got the 60s and 70s phase of small coastal cruisers...but when it got uneconomical for companies to build small sailboats for a price that joe the plumber could afford, things lost popularity, especially on lakes.
I grew up sailing on the GA and SC coast, and also waterskiing in the big GA lakes in the 70s and 80s and really don't remember ever seeing sailboats....ever...on the lakes. Sure they were out there but I never saw them, and was there a lot.
I saw an ad the other day for a new dinghy sailboat, can't remember what model but a fairly common one, nearly 10k. I can get a decent bass boat with an outboard for less.
People's money just doesn't go as far anymore, and even when you go cheap, sailing is still an expensive way to get on the water.
My dad was a machinist, and mom a stay at home mom, and we had a Contessa 26. And a travel trailer and ski boat, for a while. And a decent house in a decent working class neighborhood. On a single working class income.
I don't think that is the economical case for a lot of folks these days.
I think my dad bought his boat from another guy for $1000 and a nice shotgun. And it was only 8 years old or so when he bought it.


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## brehm62 (Mar 27, 2011)

SoOkay said:


> Seven years ago the marinas around us had waiting lists. I remember one telling me it would be 3-5 years for a slip. Now I know some (I would assume many) have slips available.
> 
> I believe it's just a reflection of the economic situation.


I don't think it is due to the economy. The only way that would happen is if people bought new boats on credit and then had to give them up. However, the most common boat age on this forum is more than 20 years old. If it were simply due to an economic downturn then there should be more boats less than 10 years old. What would be missing would be boats in the new to 5 year range (going back to 2007).

It seems clear to me that the reason for the decline is because sailing does take skill; it isn't intuitive. The best way to have new sailors is to have junior sailors and I don't see that area as very strong. I mentioned Lake Acton because it is just a stone's throw from Cincinnati and that is a population of over a million. Drive another 10 miles into Indiana and you will be at Brookville Lake which is a very nice lake (around 10 miles in length). Bloomington has both Lake Lemon and Lake Monroe. Further south there is Patoka. Around Indianapolis there is both the Geist Reservoir and the Eagle Creek Reservoir. That covers a population of at least 2.5 million people. Or think about it this way, what if you had 1/4 as much interest in sailing as kids have in minor league baseball and soccer? The obvious problem then would be a lack of boats. However, looking over the Craiglist and Oodle market for the Indianapolis area shows that there are almost no used boats available under $2,000 and that would be too much for most parents.


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## rgscpat (Aug 1, 2010)

Some trends work for sailing, others against. 
Sailing's image can be romantic, adventurous, and prestigious, but there's no one "upstairs" to try to focus the public's image of sailing. 
Sailing well requires a large effort to learn. Other hobbies that require large efforts also tend to be down in participation.
Families have less together time and competition for kids' time from organized sports and activities is tough. Parents in the sailing family demographic work more hours than a generation ago.
The economy is a negative. 
Sailing has fewer "heroes" and less popular name recognition compared to a generation ago. 
Sailing does not have the municipal or governmental support that is given to many other activities for youth. 
Fuel prices work both for and against sailing -- sailing is greener and less expensive in cost of basic propulsion (even counting costs of cruising sails and rigging) for time spent, but travel to the boat for those who don't live close by is an issue.
Another issue is the pressure on water front property and the cost of access to the water. 
Sailing does suffer from a perception of being difficult to get into and many sailing and yacht clubs have not projected a welcoming image -- and some aren't very welcoming. 
Sailing doesn't seem to have a single organizing, lobbying, and promotional body that ties together sailing-related businesses, sailing schools and instructors, and sailors, unlike some sports and recreational activities. 

"Saving Sailing" by Nick Hayes is a good read, though it does have more to say about the problem than the solution. His site also has had good discussions.


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## brehm62 (Mar 27, 2011)

benajah said:


> I saw an ad the other day for a new dinghy sailboat, can't remember what model but a fairly common one, nearly 10k. I can get a decent bass boat with an outboard for less.


Exactly. You could get a good bass boat for $2,500 and a 15 HP outboard for another $2,000. If you just wanted to get out and fish you could get an aluminum Jon boat for $700.

They still do canoe rental lots of places in Indiana and Ohio and I would guess that is because a canoe costs as little as $500.


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## brehm62 (Mar 27, 2011)

It seems to me that you would need something like puddle duck racers with tarp sails to actually get a nice amount of junior participation. I've heard of boy scout troops making these.

For those who don't know what a puddle duck racer is:

http://www.pdracer.com


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## benajah (Mar 28, 2011)

brehm62 said:


> It seems to me that you would need something like puddle duck racers with tarp sails to actually get a nice amount of junior participation. I've heard of boy scout troops making these.
> 
> For those who don't know what a puddle duck racer is:
> 
> Puddle Duck Racer - Easiest Sailboat to Build and Race


Oh that looks like a lot of fun. Might be time to clear some junk out of my garage and start building one.


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## brehm62 (Mar 27, 2011)

It seems like something like this could help quite a bit. Plans are available for free.


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## Nicklaus (Apr 23, 2012)

CBinRI said:


> I suspect that sailing will come back in terms of popularity, as gas continues to get more expensive


Exactly why I took up sailing. Grew up with power boats - fishing and skiing. I love being on the water, but with gas being more than $4 a gallon and diesel higher, using the wind just makes so much more sense.

After one season with a sailboat, I don't want to go back. I love the sound the lines make at dock, the heel of the boat and how relaxing being on the water is.

My wife and I had a free weekend with perfect weather - except the lack of wind - and we tried to sail across the Bay. Ended up motoring most of the time. After several hours of listening to the motor, I decided I never wanted a power boat again.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

For about the same amount of plywood, why not make a proper dinghy? The el Toro, developed here on San Francisco Bay is a tough and seaworthy little boat. Every year they hold the "Bull ship" race which goes from Marin, across the Bay and finishes at the City Front.


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## brehm62 (Mar 27, 2011)

GeorgeB said:


> For about the same amount of plywood, why not make a proper dinghy?


Obviously something like a Weekend Skiff would look prettier but there are several requirements.


Low cost
Easy to build
Easy to sail
Can be car-topped

There are lots and lots of pretty little boats but many of them weigh over 200 lbs. And, there really is no difference between 200 and 2,000; both will require a trailer. The trailer by itself could cost more than the entire boat so that isn't a trivial concern. However, if it weighs under 100 lbs and can be car-topped then that means a much lower entry cost. Then too, most boats plans cost something.

I'll have to check on this and see if I can find something competitive.


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## MarkCK (Jan 4, 2009)

I think the easy to build part is what makes pdr's so popular. That and the large following it is starting to develop. I just about built one this past winter just because I was looking for something to do. Then I found a sunfish on Craigslist for $350 and decided to go that route instead. I never knew how much fun a small boat could be till I sailed one of those.


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## lyre (Aug 23, 2006)

*saving sailing*

There is a great book and a sailing magazine podcast on this topic simply titled 'saving sailing' by Nicholas Hayes. (no affiliation to the author)
Nicholas is an actuary by profession, an avid sailor and apparently active in his local sailing community. He wanted to understand why 'participation in sailing is declining in America, down more than 40% since 1997, and down 70% since 1979. 
It's a great listen (podcast) and read. Very surprising and thoughtful conclusions based on believable quantative analysis.
Less than 1% of the US population sails.
Sailing participation by age group:
Over 65: 12%
55-64: 31%
45-54: 19%
35-44: 9%
25-34: 8% and so on.

'the average boat owner is 54.8 years old.

My take on his very reasoned argument, is that sailing is in decline because families no longer partake in concentrated outdoor experiences together.

Personally, my wife and I are 35-40 with a 4 year old son. We are the age minority by 15-20 years in our yard, and children are nowhere to be found.

Economics is a factor in our very expensive pastime. However, we started sailing with a group of friends and families that would ride the NYC subway (and a bus) for two hours to get to our eBay (cheap) boats in city island NY.
The camaraderie among friends and family was great. And our children, some who were old enough to sail, some were nestled in their below decks car seats somehow not only bonded with the experience of sailing, but bonded and associated the experience with of sailing with being together as a dedicated family. The issue of sailing's decline in my opinion is much more about our family culture than anything else.

The book 'saving sailing' asks the question. Who is sailing, and with who and what are they thinking about while sailing? The overwhelming data comes back..
Who's sailing? Affluent men over 60. Who are they sailing with? Virtually alone. 
What are they thinking about while sailing? The time they spent with there dads..

I'm saving sailing this weekend, with wife, 4 yr old son and my two nephews. What's your solution?

I'm sure to get some cranky old man responses to this. Sailing dad , got my back?


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## WildJasmine (Sep 10, 2011)

I would say that the tough economy is actually good for getting younger people into sailing. 

When my wife and I were looking for boats we had it narrowed down to about four or five that we were keeping our eyes on. All of these boats were owned by older people (55+) with the exception of ours (he was in his late 30s).

All of them were older boats 26-30 feet, still in good condition but had not been taken out or used in a bit and the asking prices were under $5000.

4 out of the 5 boats were purchased by people under 30 and its weird because we all ended up on the same dock even though the boats came from all around the area.

The tough economy and depressed sailboat market is creating opportunities for younger people to get into the sport at the expense of the older guys. We younger people take our friends and families out and get them interested in sailing and buying boats(which IS happening). 

Give it a few years and there will be a new market of new boat buyers and the sport will continue and eventually grow.


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## lyre (Aug 23, 2006)

*silver lining*

Wild jasmine,
Nice post and great points. You expose the silver lining in the otherwise terrible used boat market. 
To encourage sailing and camaraderie, A few of us within my office have initiated a summer long trial of 'take your work colleagues sailing'. We are lucky enough to have a sound boat, a licensed captain who circumnavigated the globe before the age of 28 and great north east cruising ground. We've offering leisure day trips, basic sailing / safety instruction and possibly racing for the more experienced and thrill seeking. Our hope is that everyone has a great experience and perhaps some will be bitten by the sailing bug.


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## Dfok (Apr 11, 2010)

*Re: saving sailing*



lyre said:


> Who's sailing? Affluent men over 60. Who are they sailing with? Virtually alone.
> What are they thinking about while sailing? The time they spent with there dads..
> 
> I'm saving sailing this weekend, with wife, 4 yr old son and my two nephews. What's your solution?
> ...


Hey! Of course flatulent old men sail alone, harnessing "the winds" is not for the young or inexperienced.
That said, multitudes avoiding the waterways because of some old farts on boats seems ridiculous. insert many smilie faces here ( because apparently I cannot figure out how!)


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## brehm62 (Mar 27, 2011)

WildJasmine said:


> I would say that the tough economy is actually good for getting younger people into sailing.
> 
> The tough economy and depressed sailboat market is creating opportunities for younger people to get into the sport
> 
> Give it a few years and there will be a new market of new boat buyers and the sport will continue and eventually grow.


That's a positive attitude but unfortunately the market doesn't work like that. Let's run through how this actually happened.

WWII ended and returning servicemen went home, got married, and had kids, the baby boomers. This was from 1946 to 1964. So, the first of these would have been 10 years old in 1956 and the last of these would have been 15 years old in 1979. Let's see if boating correlates to this.

Dick Valdes owned a fiberglass company which began producing sailboats under the Columbia brand in 1965. They became the world's largest producer of fiberglass sailboats. Dick Valdes sold the company to Whitaker in 1968 but worked there as manager until 1972. From 1965 to 1972 Columbia produced over 30,000 boats. The brand named faded in the 1980's.

Today, Dick's son again has the Columbia brand name but it is now more boutique than volume. The company has only one model, the Columbia 32, a high performance sailboat with a planing hull.

Frank Butler started Coronado and began producing sailboats in 1964. In 1969, Butler sold Coronado to Whitaker and worked there a short time before leaving and founding Catalina.

Since 1969 Catalina has produced 60,000 boats.

Hunter Marine began producing sailboats in 1973. Today they produce about 2,000 boats a year.

Beneteau began producing fiberglass sailboats in 1964. They have built 42,000 boats.

Macgregor began producing Venture sailboats in the early 1960's. They have built 36,000 boats.

Pacific Seacraft began producing sailboats in 1976 but went bankrupt in 2007. Production continues today in low volume.

Ericson began producing boats in 1966. They produced a few thousand units before going out of business in 1990.

South Coast Seacraft produced about 4,000 sailboats from 1965 to 1981.

Contessa 32, produced from 1970 to 1982. Production began again in 1996 but this must considered another boutique shop.

During WWII the US produced vast quantities of aluminum to build aircraft. This demand dropped drastically with the end of the war. Prior to WWII rowboats, sailboats, and speedboats were built of wood while canoes were typically wooden rib structures with a canvas covering. Canvas was also used for sails. Following WWII both rowboats and canoes shifted to aluminum. The only significant change in boat construction was plywood. There was a demand in Britain for an aircraft that did not use aluminum or steel and canvas. Rotary cutting had been developed about 1850 but the glues were inadequate. Substantial effort led to the development of urea formaldehyde glue. This enabled the famous Mosquito bomber with hardwood veneers over a balsa core. Plywood was produced in vast quantities during the war. It continued to be used after the war but ran into shortages in the late 1940's. This shortage was not resolved until phenol formaldehyde glue enabled production of southern yellow pine plywood in 1964.

Most people forget that before WWII the most common clear plastic was cellophane which was made from cellulose. The most common decorative plastic was Bakelite. Rubber was made from latex from rubber trees and fabric was made from natural fibers like cotton, wool, linen, and silk. However, prior to WWII the Japanese disrupted supplies of both silk and rubber. The US began producing synthetic rubber from alcohol in 1939 but had switched to petroleum late in the war. For example, during the Normandy landing 3/4 of the tires were from alcohol. Nylon was produced to replace silk. Bakelite was too brittle so large quantities of Plexiglass were produced for aircraft canopies. Shortages of cotton led to the production of polyester.

Polyester resin was first used for boats in 1946. By 1951 they had figured out how to cure it so that the top surface was not tacky. Dacron was developed in 1950 which allowed Dacron to replace canvas as a sail material. By 1952, plywood was in short supply while polyester resin and glass fiber had come down in price. This led to massive investment and the polyester fiberglass boom from 1955 to 1965. By the early 1960's the US was producing so much oil that Texas by itself produced more than the next country. However, by the late 1960's the US was importing oil. The oil embargo in 1973 led to higher prices for petroleum which caused most of the fiberglass industry to collapse. However, the availability of plywood led to home built designs such as those by Phil Bolger in 1973.

A used boat market doesn't appear by magic. The only way you get used boats is by a steady stream of new boats being purchased. Today there is a substantial barrier to entry. A Sunfish costs $4,800. A Catalina 12.5 costs $4,800. Hunter's smallest boat, the 15, costs $8,000. A West Wight Potter 15 is $12,500. Macgregor no longer builds the small Ventures. Beneteau's smallest boat is 30'.

Please correct this if you have other information but the only company I know of that works the low end sailboat market today is Meyers. Meyers has been making fishing boats since 1937. They picked up the SportsPal and Michicraft canoe lines. Meyers also has the former sailboat product lines of Kransco (Snark), Siltronics (Sea Devil/Sea Swinger), and Lockley (Sea Witch) which are now all under the Snark brand name. 425,000 Snarks have been built.

Super Snark: $998, 11' x 3' 2", 310 lb payload, ABS plastic
Sea Skimmer: $1,391, 12' x 3' 3", 475 lb payload, ABS plastic
Sunchaser I: $3,336, 12' x 4' 8", 900 lb payload, ABS plastic

A search on the Oodle market turns up 6 Snarks in the entire US. Perhaps more of these are being sold on Craigslist. Using SearchTempest to check the entire national CL market turns up 100 listings. 1/3rd of these are old listings and at least half the remaining listings want too much money.

Another interesting item is that if we exclude the sailboats under $5,000 then half of the new sailboats that were bought since 1990 were over $100,000. With the entire low end abandoned except for Catalina and Meyers this trend would seem to be supported.

And what about Meyers as the savior of the entry level? Well, places like Sears used to sell Snarks. Today, the world is very different. Gander Mountain for example sells fishing boats, canoes, kayaks, and inflatables. They sell 16 different models of pedal boats. Sailboats? None. No one is likely to ever see an entry level sailboat in a store.

A Sunchaser over $3,000 is not very attractive to an experienced sailor because you can buy a larger 70's or 80's model used boat for that price or less. However, this again presents a barrier to new sailors. First of all, they would be unlikely to know how to repair an older boat and secondly the difficulty of raising the mast, setting the rigging, and managing two large sails would make this difficult for a novice.

The sailing boom of the 1960's and 70's resulted from several factors including new materials developed during WWII, the growth of the middle class, children in the baby boom generation, and the low price of petroleum derived resins. Claiming that this is cyclical is nonsense. Claiming that the market will just come back by itself is also nonsense. The first children of the baby boomers (generation X) would have reached the age of 10 about 1975 while the last reached the age of 15 by 1996. The sailboat industry is in clear decline during this time. This was undoubtedly due to computers and video games and continues today with the internet. Why would someone believe that this trend would reverse by itself?

This is again why I feel that something like a PD Racer is absolutely essential to get new sailors into the market. Without new sailors there will be no new demand for sailboats and the market will continue to decline.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

I agree that the combination of aging baby boomers, the high cost of materials (those dead dinosaurs are expensive!) and this extended recession is having its impact on sailing. I see the main impact here on San Francisco Bay being in the new boat market (I have several friends who are brokers). The high cost of real estate and the impact of environmental regulations are driving out the lower cost boats (read derelict) from the marinas and to, I assume, the chain saw and land fill. I don’t see this trend changing as the nation’s economic outlook isn’t going to get much better. 

I think that young people are sailing at the same rate as before, it’s just that there are fewer of them. Our club has a very active juniors program open to all – club and non-club members alike. We even have a scholarship program for families who can’t afford it. The summer classes usually are completely full. One thing that may be keeping kids out of sailing is the liability, budget constraints and regulations that are driving the local parks and recreations departments from being involved in boating in general and sailing in particular. Our local county lake no longer rents out space in their boathouse and charges for launching which are two great barriers to your average 12 year old.

Why the love affair with the Puddle Duck? For the same price in raw materials you could have an el Toro. If my dad said to me that we were building a PD instead of an eT, I probably would have found different interests. Even sailing kids like to go fast. One of my fond memories as a youth was playing “fighting sail” where me and my buddies would maneuver around and try to steal each other’s centerboards in addition to all the match racing and cruising to the far side of the lake. Not sure a PD would be much fun when the other kids are sailing el Toros, Sunfish, FJs, Banshees and the like.


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## NeilAW (Apr 3, 2012)

As a new sailor, I can say that there is alot of interest in sailing in my age group. (I am 20) Every time I have asked someone to go out on the harbor with me, the answer is allways yes. My friends always seem amazed though that I have the ability to take a boat out. 

I believe that there are a few percived barriers that are not acctualy there, at least for us in the military. For $10/hr I take a Rhodes 19 out every weekend and occasionaly during the week. Sailing has seems to have an aura of being "something rich people do", and so, alot of us dont even think to try to get into sailing.


Just my 2 cents 

Neil


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## brehm62 (Mar 27, 2011)

GeorgeB said:


> I think that young people are sailing at the same rate as before, it's just that there are fewer of them.


Yes, fewer would indicate less interest.



> Our club has a very active juniors program open to all - club and non-club members alike. We even have a scholarship program for families who can't afford it. The summer classes usually are completely full.


Your club is an exception. I'm going to guess that it is in a fairly affluent area.

The Center for Wooden Boats in Seattle has beginning classes. These cost $175. They allow 16 students per class which suggests that they have eight El Toros. They have seven sessions during the Summer so they could teach a maximum of 112 per year. The Intermediate class is $175 with eight students sailing solo in the same eight boats. Four sessions so a maximum of 32 per year. The El Toro racing class is limited to eight students so 8 per year. So only a fraction of these kids would be racing unless they get their own El Toros.

Now the interesting thing is that they also have the Quick and Daring for Kids program where for $200, nine kids can build a truly ratty boat from two sheets of plywood in five days. For the same $200 they could build PDR's and have an expanding fleet. The really interesting thing is that the only other build program they have is for a 14' kayak in five days minus sanding and painting. This class costs $1,000. If you could build an El Toro in that length of time for that amount of money that is what they would be building.



> One thing that may be keeping kids out of sailing is the liability, budget constraints and regulations that are driving the local parks and recreations departments from being involved in boating in general and sailing in particular.


Not here. Every lake in Indiana allows boating. Many have kayak, canoe, rowboat, or pedal boat rental. Some rent pontoon boats. However, very few rent sailboats. In fact, the Eagle Creek Reservoir is the only one I know of that does.



> Our local county lake no longer rents out space in their boathouse and charges for launching which are two great barriers to your average 12 year old.


I don't know how your costs compare. But again this is why I was talking about a boat that was car-toppable so that you could skip the trailer and storage. Most places here also have annual passes that are cheaper than paying each time.



> Why the love affair with the Puddle Duck? For the same price in raw materials you could have an el Toro.


Actually you can't. I've never heard of anyone building an El Toro for less than 3x the price. And, it is considerably harder to build. It also doesn't appear to be big enough for adults.



> Not sure a PD would be much fun when the other kids are sailing el Toros, Sunfish, FJs, Banshees and the like.


I can't imagine how you got the impression that someone would replace an existing fleet of good boats with a basic boat like a PDR. If there is a strong junior program with plenty of boats that is fine. The PDR is suggested to create a fleet where none exists or there are not enough boats. There is also nothing to stop someone from building a better boat after gaining experience building and sailing a PDR. I don't suppose it would have to be a PDR specifically but I'm not exactly sure what would be competitive. I've been trying figure out what the absolute rock bottom price would be to build a sailboat that could carry two adults.


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## brehm62 (Mar 27, 2011)

NeilAW said:


> I believe that there are a few percived barriers that are not acctualy there, at least for us in the military. For $10/hr I take a Rhodes 19 out every weekend and occasionaly during the week.


That is the same price they charge at Eagle Creek Reservoir, however, that is also the only place in Indiana that rents sailboats. That is a real barrier.


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## brehm62 (Mar 27, 2011)

GeorgeB said:


> I don't see this trend changing as the nation's economic outlook isn't going to get much better.


Actually, this isn't true. The Congressional Budget Office projects that if things continue as they have been for the past three years then unemployment will be down to 6% by 2016.

We've had 27 months of steady job growth in the private sector which has added back 4.25 million jobs and the economy is expected to continue to grow at 3.3%. No, it isn't spectacular but it is sustainable without inflation. So, the outlook is actually good.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

My experience is the same percentage of today’s kids are sailing as were in the past, it is just that there are fewer children in general than couple of generations ago. Our club is in Alameda Ca, and we draw children from there and Oakland, which is the opposite of affluent. Our rates are comparable to yours. In addition, we provide scholarships for the families who can’t afford it. If anything, today there are more organized activities competing for a kid’s time such as the many soccer leagues. I don’t see that as a bad thing. Kids ought to do things that interest them. Out here, they have the opportunity to sail. The choice is theirs. I use the el Toro simply as an example from my own life. I did not come from a sailing family. For the price of sheet of quarter inch plywood, some trim pieces, rigging from the hardware store and some nylon cloth, I had a sailboat. I have no idea where the plans came from (the plans for my one sheet of plywood hydroplane came from Popular Mechanics). What made it fun for me was being able to ride my bike down to the boathouse, rig, spend the day sailing and be back home for dinner. Having to schedule a day for the folk’s to drive the boat to the lake, pay for the launch/usage fee etc. would detract from the spontaneous fun on the water I had as a kid. El Toros can be as cheap or expensive as you want them to be. The grownups who race them spend ridiculous sums of money but you don’t have to do so for some family fun. They go used for about $400 (and up) on Craig’s list. If you want a small boat that two grownups can sail comfortably, then just as the “olden days” you need to go to a trailer boat. Might I suggest a Lido? Small enough to park alongside a house and be towed by a compact car.

Unfortunately, I live in California and the outlook isn’t so bright. Hewitt Packard just announced a 27,000 person layoff. And the long term prognosis for my retirement fund is pretty bleak. No big boat for me in retirement.


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## brehm62 (Mar 27, 2011)

GeorgeB said:


> My experience is the same percentage of today's kids are sailing as were in the past, it is just that there are fewer children in general than couple of generations ago.


Let's check that.

Children in US, age 10-14 (prime sailing age)

1950 - 11 million
1960 - 17 million
1970 - 20 million
1980 - 18 million
1990 - 17 million
2000 - 20 million
2010 - 20 million

No, I guess that isn't true.



> For the price of sheet of quarter inch plywood, some trim pieces, rigging from the hardware store and some nylon cloth, I had a sailboat. I have no idea where the plans came from (the plans for my one sheet of plywood hydroplane came from Popular Mechanics).


There are plans available for one sheet designs but these have limited utility. There are a number of other free plans available on Duckworks



> What made it fun for me was being able to ride my bike down to the boathouse, rig, spend the day sailing and be back home for dinner.


That only works if you happen to live within biking distance of a lake. The nearest lake to me is 16 miles away. The average over most of Indiana would be more like 25 miles.



> Having to schedule a day for the folk's to drive the boat to the lake, pay for the launch/usage fee etc. would detract from the spontaneous fun on the water I had as a kid.


I know, imagine having to actually spend time with your kids.



> El Toros can be as cheap or expensive as you want them to be.


No, they can be as expensive but not as cheap. And, you won't get much help on reducing cost from those free plans. They are not that easy to build either.



> They go used for about $400 (and up) on Craig's list.


Used is irrelevant since we were talking about building.



> If you want a small boat that two grownups can sail comfortably, then just as the "olden days" you need to go to a trailer boat.


No. Something that can be carried and car-topped or put in a pickup.



> Unfortunately, I live in California and the outlook isn't so bright.


Be glad you don't live in Michigan which hit 14% unemployment. California is on the same employment trend as it had in 1992. Unemployment should continue dropping 1/2% every year like the rest of the country.



> Hewitt Packard just announced a 27,000 person layoff.


Actually HP is looking better than they have in many years. They used to have a special executive parking lot and executive suites which gave top executives a severe case of ivory tower syndrome. Whitman had them removed when she took over last September. She had the printer division merged into the PC division (which makes sense). Most of their current financial stress is from the purchase of Autonomy by Apotheker. He paid more than 3x the going rate for that company. However, as revenues build the supply of cash back they should be doing better.



> And the long term prognosis for my retirement fund is pretty bleak.


Be glad you didn't buy Facebook stock.


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## HeartsContent (Sep 14, 2010)

Grew up in Ohio and did my first sailing on a friend's Windflight (like a Sunfish) at Houston Woods when I was a kid. I was instantly addicted. There was an active racing club back then with sunfish, Hobie and small day sailors racing on the weekends.

There's just not the free time today that there once was. With illegal immigration, outsourcing, and corporations moving their operations overseas plaguing our nation, the availability of free time has greatly diminished as folks must work twice the hours to get by and still tend to have less. That leaves precious little time for recreation.

You have to really want to make that time and be passionate about sailing.


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## brehm62 (Mar 27, 2011)

HeartsContent said:


> Grew up in Ohio and did my first sailing on a friend's Windflight (like a Sunfish) at Houston Woods when I was a kid. I was instantly addicted. There was an active racing club back then with sunfish, Hobie and small day sailors racing on the weekends.


The last time I was there we rented a canoe and paddled around the lake. As I recall there were four sailboats on the water. There were three guys in their late teens attempting to sail. They managed to turn their boat over. There was a guy near them in a larger boat who I figured was the father of at least one of them. There was an older couple on a sailboat and a girl around maybe 11 sailing near them on a Sunfish. I figured it was probably their granddaughter. A few more boats would have been nice.



> With illegal immigration,


This isn't actually such a problem. Most people aren't familiar with Mexican history. The Mexican Revolution ended in 1917. During the fighting, 900,000 out of 15 million people died. That's 6% of the population. In contrast, America's bloodiest war, The Civil War, had half that ratio of deaths. Mexico's war began after Madero was assassinated in 1910. After the war ended, two of the next three presidents were also assassinated. This was an unstable country. The PRI party brought stability in 1929 and this led to strong growth from 1940 to 1980. However, after many years as a monopoly the PRI became corrupt and resorted to murder to silence critics. Just one example was the Tlatelolco massacre in 1968 where soldiers opened fire on unarmed protesters resulting in the death of at least 40. Compare this with the Kent State Shooting in 1970 resulting in 4 dead. Thus from 1957 to 1979 emigration out of Mexico increased. This fell beginning in 1979 with Mexico's oil boom but then began rising again in 1982.

In 1988, the PRI resorted to wholesale election fraud to get their candidate, Salinas, elected to the presidency. Salinas did do some reforms which caused emigration to decline from 1989 to 1992. This helped some but shortly after Zedillo was elected in 1994 the economy collapsed. However, President Clinton authorized $50 billion to keep Mexico's bank from failing and this along with additional improvements that Zedillo instituted caused emigration to stabilize until 1998 when it began rising again. Zedillo was honorable enough that he proclaimed Vicente Fox the winner of the election in 2000 and the PRI's monopoly was broken. Emigration has continued to fall since Fox's election reaching zero in 2009. It has been further suggested that Mexicans have actually begun immigrating back into Mexico from the US since 2010.



> outsourcing, and corporations moving their operations overseas plaguing our nation,


Yes, automotive jobs to Mexico, manufacturing jobs to China, programming jobs to India, and customer support jobs to the Philippines and India. During the Bush administration the amount of money going to China for manufactured goods tripled while the amount of money going to the Middle East for oil also tripled.

However, the world is not a vending machine where you can just make a selection and get what you want. Today, there are shortages of programmers in India. And, rising wages in both Mexico and China have reduced the cost advantage. Some automotive jobs have returned to the US and the US is growing manufacturing jobs for the first time in 20 years. US oil production is back up to where it was in 2002 and oil consumption is down. The small oil pumps scattered around Indiana are all operating now that the price of oil is up. If the price drops substantially these small pumps will stop producing again. Similarly Canada is producing oil from its deposits of tar sand. If the price of oil drops sharply they will stop producing as well. However, a sharp drop in oil is very unlikely. Twenty years ago the most common transportation in China was by bicycle. Today, most people have scooters and there is a growing demand for cars. This also means a growing demand for oil.

For the first two years of the Bush Presidency, domestic oil production ran about 5.75 million barrels per day. This fell steadily and by the time he left office we were down to 5.25 million barrels per day. This has risen steadily since then and now we are back up to 5.75 million. Meanwhile oil consumption is down 12% from the high from 2004-2005. Don't listen to the people who claim this had something to do with Presidential policies. It doesn't. The gain since Bush is related to the price of oil, steerable head technology, and better seismic mapping of underground deposits in existing oil fields. The US government has not substantially restricted oil production since 1870 when it was used to create kerosene to replace dwindling supplies of whale oil.

In spite of frenzied claims, you actually cannot get more oil by drilling more. Why? Well, basically all of the oil fields in the US have already been mapped. Then why are they getting more oil than they used to, isn't this new oil that they found by drilling deeper? No, however, it requires some explanation. Shallow petroleum deposits are tars. Deeper deposits can have a consistency like axle grease. Deeper still you get heavy crude. Deeper than this you get light crude. Below this you get natural gas. As we drill deeper we get down to natural gas which is why our NG supplies have grown dramatically. In the past the oil that was obtained was heavy and light crude. Later they came up with steam injection to get the thick oil. Down in Argentina they are trying to figure out if they can get the shallow tars to melt enough with hot gas injection to pump them. Canada has come up with a way to use its tar sands however the US has still not come up with a way to use its tar shale's.

Older oil drillers depended on natural gas deposits in the oil to bring it to the service (the gushers in the old movies). When the gas ran out the well was dead. Today we recover and recirculate the natural gas to keep the oil going. This led to one crackpot theory that the industry was hiding natural gas by pumping it back into wells. On wells that are already dead they often use carbon dioxide injection. It also used to be thought that an oil field was completely connected so that you could pump all the oil with just a few wells. More recently we used the massive computation ability of computers to create more detailed maps from the seismic information. This led to the discovery that there were sections of the old oil fields that were not connected so new wells had to be drilled to get all of the oil. This was made easier with steerable drilling heads. This is not the same as finding new oil. We knew the oil was there; we just didn't realize that we weren't getting all of it.



> the availability of free time has greatly diminished as folks must work twice the hours to get by and still tend to have less.


Both of my grandfathers worked as coal miners. My grandfather on my mother's side originally drove a mule cart in the mines. When the mines closed he worked as a janitor.

My father grew up in a house without electricity or running water. I recall when he worked the night shift on an aluminum rolling mill. I recall when he worked weekends as a security guard. I recall the two years he took classes to earn an associates degree while still working a full time job so that he could get a better job.

I remember when the steel mills shut down putting 40,000 people out of work in Indiana. This loss went from Indiana all the way across northern Ohio to Pittsburg. Gary Indiana lost 1/3rd of its population and it has never recovered. There were similar losses in Michigan. Back in the early 1980's I applied for a job at a record store and found out that they had received 200 applications in just 3 days. During this time, people left the state because there were no jobs here.

The country as a whole has not seen anything like the 2008 collapse since the Great Depression but sections of the country have. Also, as a whole, the US is in considerably better shape today than it was in early 2009 when the collapse finally hit bottom. In Europe some of the austerity measures have pushed them back into a second recession. It will take about two years for the unemployment rate to get down to 7% and at that point the market regains some efficiency as people begin to shift jobs again. I wouldn't be surprised if this increased the growth rate a bit above 3.3%.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

I'm not sure the problem is the cost of entry. I think fear is playing as much a part as cost in the decline of childhood introductory sailing. Sailboats heel. Sailboats mean water. Sailboat classes MAKE the boats capsize and throw my precious snowflake in the water...on purpose!
Yeah, that's attractive to the typical helicoptering soccer mom.

In fact, I think cost is the lowest factor- priced an x-box kinect lately? it's about the cost of building a PDR, and MORE than taking a week of lessons at our local summer sailing school.
In fact, summer sailing school is CHEAPER than day care- why aren't parents flocking to the opportunity in droves?
It's what my parents did almost 40 years ago when it was obvious I was hopeless at golf.

Fear. And ignorance. Let's face it, we're not great at promoting our sport. Few schools have sailing teams, few clubs do school visits to promote their sailing schools, few print pamphlets and flyers and distribute them.

The PDR is the small boat that SHOULD reignite the passion for sailing in the younger set.
Inexpensive, easy to build, quick to build...
But it's ugly.

Now, a PuddleCat build...
PuddleCat Catamarans | Home
... that is a whole different kettle of fish. Still quick to build, still relatively inexpensive, still easy to build, but better looking and arguably more fun to sail.

brehm62, let's see if we can ignite this fire. Let's see if there is any interest out there for a Low-Buck League- you gotta build it and sail it within 30 days without spending more than 3 figures, with a crew under the age of 30.

You build one, I'll build one, we'll document the builds here and promote it in our local communities newspapers, tv, schools, etc. If we start tomorrow, we can be on the water by the July 4 weekend, and maybe actually get some interest before the school year ends.

You up to the challenge?


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## asdf38 (Jul 7, 2010)

brehm62 said:


> A used boat market doesn't appear by magic. The only way you get used boats is by a steady stream of new boats being purchased. Today there is a substantial barrier to entry. A Sunfish costs $4,800. A Catalina 12.5 costs $4,800. Hunter's smallest boat, the 15, costs $8,000. A West Wight Potter 15 is $12,500. Macgregor no longer builds the small Ventures. Beneteau's smallest boat is 30'.
> 
> Please correct this if you have other information but the only company I know of that works the low end sailboat market today is Meyers. Meyers has been making fishing boats since 1937. They picked up the SportsPal and Michicraft canoe lines. Meyers also has the former sailboat product lines of Kransco (Snark), Siltronics (Sea Devil/Sea Swinger), and Lockley (Sea Witch) which are now all under the Snark brand name. 425,000 Snarks have been built.


The mistake is judging the health of sailing based on new boat sales. The problem for boatbuilders in the 20'-30' market is that they're competing with every boat that was built in the last 4 decades. Fiberglass boats just don't go away and hang around on the used market at 1/10th or less of the price of a new boat.

It's been a simple cycle, sailing and cruising as we know it was invented in the 60's when fiberglass boatbuilding coincided with the rise of a middle class able to afford the boats. A huge number of new boats had to be built in the 60's and 70's to meet this demand. By the 80's the boatbuilders were competing with themselves as their aging but still in decent shape models competed with the much more expensive new ones. The financial crisis of the 80's knocked out many of the already weakened boat builders.

So it's no surprise at all to find few new boats in the 20-30' range when we have nearly the entire inventory of boats built in the last 4 decades still in the market.

I was standing on a new Harbor 25 at a boat show a few weeks back and it was 100k+. Remember, that's what a quality 25' boat costs, and did cost. That's what my 79' contessa cost in 79' dollars roughly (I believe), but today it cost me $8k. It's no wonder the small boat market has collapsed but that doesn't mean a ton of people aren't still sailing those small boats.


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## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

I'm in my 30's and for me sailing was a no brainer when looking at the cost of gasoline these days. I really don't know how people are paying for a days use of a powerboat? I'll be damned if i'm going to burn up a couple of hundred dollars in gas for a weekend of tubing...


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

Strange,how many friends, who sailed for decades, waited for the price of fuel to go thru the roof, before taking about switching to power boats. Where's the logic?


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## brehm62 (Mar 27, 2011)

asdf38 said:


> The mistake is judging the health of sailing based on new boat sales. The problem for boatbuilders in the 20'-30' market is that they're competing with every boat that was built in the last 4 decades. Fiberglass boats just don't go away and hang around on the used market at 1/10th or less of the price of a new boat.


To give you an idea of how ludicrous this statement is just imagine if someone made the same claim about housing. Houses last longer than boats so what if someone claimed that no one was buying new houses because they were competing with all the older houses for a lower price. In the real world we do measure the status of the housing market by new housing starts everyday.



> sailing and cruising as we know it was invented in the 60's when fiberglass boatbuilding coincided with the rise of a middle class able to afford the boats.


Well, your timeline is off a bit. Polyester resin was first used for boats in 1946. The actual fiberglass boom was from 1955 to 1965.



> A huge number of new boats had to be built in the 60's and 70's to meet this demand. By the 80's the boatbuilders were competing with themselves as their aging but still in decent shape models competed with the much more expensive new ones.


Again, this is incorrect. The oil embargo in 1973 caused the price of oil to rise dramatically. This greatly raised the cost of polyester resin and severely damaged new boat sales. A shortage of plywood since WWII helped foster the growth of fiberglass. However the development of phenol formaldehyde glue in 1964 allowed the production of much cheaper plywood from yellow pine. So, with rising polyester costs we see a big rise in home-built boat designs based on plywood in 1974. In some respects this harkened back to the pre-WWII wooden boat era.



> The financial crisis of the 80's knocked out many of the already weakened boat builders.


Not really, most of these just stopped making small sailboats. All of the larger manufacturers are still around: Hunter, Beneteau, Catalina, Macgregor, and Meyer.



> So it's no surprise at all to find few new boats in the 20-30' range when we have nearly the entire inventory of boats built in the last 4 decades still in the market.


You could make the same claim about cars: new car sales are down because we have the entire inventory of cars from the last 4 decades. The truth of this for boats is similar to the truth for cars.



> I was standing on a new Harbor 25 at a boat show a few weeks back and it was 100k+. Remember, that's what a quality 25' boat costs, and did cost.


I double checked and the base price of an H25 is $89,000 without sails or rigging so $100,000 seems about right. However, your statement seems to be out of touch with reality.

A Harbor 25 is similar to a McGregor 26M. The H25 has a little more displacement, ballast, and sail area. It has less cabin room and no stove. The primary difference is that the H25 comes with a Yanmar and saildrive and has mahogany trim, paneled ceiling, and portholes. So, let's set the base price of an H25 as $30k instead of the M26's $22k. Let's add 10k for engine, another 10k for the saildrive, and 10k for the vanity trim. That would be $60,000 total. This is close to the price of the larger Hunter 27 and more than a Hunter Edge or Catalina 250. This is nowhere near the a value of $100,000.

What exactly is it that you believe you can do with a Harbor 25 that you can't do with a McGregor 26M?



> That's what my 79' contessa cost in 79' dollars roughly (I believe), but today it cost me $8k. It's no wonder the small boat market has collapsed but that doesn't mean a ton of people aren't still sailing those small boats.


A Contessa is a tough boat and the 26 should be capable of long passage with one or two people. However, I wouldn't put its value at $100,000. Fortunately I do know of a homebuilt design in this same class that could be built for much less than this.


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## asdf38 (Jul 7, 2010)

I'm not aruging absolutes but the just of it is as I described. 1955? How many fiberglass sailboats do you think were built then compared to the 60's and 70's?

Housing is an ok analogy but the difference is that the small cruising boat, while existing to a limited extent before fiberglass was basically invented around this time. It would be like if homes didn't exist, and then did. There would be a huge boom in home sales followed by a slump as the market saturated. That's roughly what happened in the sailboat market. Tanzer, Pearson, J.J. Taylor, Oday, Erricson, Cape Dory, all these companies went out of business around the late 80's and the economy isn't the only reason. Of course there are still boats being built even in the <30' range, Hunter, Catalina, Com-Pac and some smaller builders like the Harbor 25 I cited come to mind immediately. The >30' range there has always been activity and new construction and I also suspect, as others have said, that families have moved up in size, on average as well. So the stagnation in the smaller range is both what I'm describing and that.

Cars are different because during the early years the were having breakthroughs people were too poor to be buying them. Cars had a steadier build up and also cars just don't last as long. We don't have cars from the 60's and 70's on the market, they've all gone to the scrap heap.

That said, I agree that if the sailboat market were thriving there would be lots of construction at every level, and that isn't happening, but I disagree that it's in steep decline.

As for the harbor 25/contessa mcgreggor comparison I'll leave it to others to argue more about that. But your glossing over some significant differences in overall quality. As another reference point the Com-pac 27 is ~100k as well. And that's considered a mid-quality (solid but not amazing) boat.


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## brehm62 (Mar 27, 2011)

I thought about posting point by point last night but today I realized that I needed to put out some basic factual information so that we could get past some of the reasonable and logical but incorrect assumptions.

From about 1850 to 1910 almost all of the boats in the US were work boats. These were used for transportation, clamming, fishing, and setting lobster traps however there were some boats used for sport hunting or sport fishing. There were a number of working sailboats (mostly dinghy's) that were also used in races. This often involved taking on sandbags for ballast and using larger sails.

Until about 1910 smaller boats were powered by oars while larger commercial boats had steam engines. If you have ever seen the movie, "African Queen" with Humphrey Bogart then you've seen a good example of a smaller working boat with steam power. After 1920 the larger boats began replacing steam with the Cummins produced diesel engine. However, for smaller vessels the only available engines would have been from automobiles. Apparently whatever they used was not considered entirely reliable since Maine lobster boats still had auxiliary sails in the 1930's.









There were some inboard runabouts and motor launches produced with automobile engines. Judging by the clothing styles, I would say this motor launch was probably early 1930's.









However, Chris Craft did start making mahogany runabouts in 1910. This is the factory in the 1920's. Those do indeed appear to be automotive engines in the picture. These boats would not have been cheap.









However, also from 1910 the production of the outboard motor increased the number of recreational boats in the US. This Evinrude ad is from 1918. I'm assuming the woman is to try to minimize the fact that these motors weighed nearly 70 lbs.









This second ad must be from the mid 1920's judging by the number of motors produced.









Certainly the Great Depression suppressed boat sales although both Chris Craft and Evinrude continued to sell during the 1930's. With runabouts and fishing boats with outboards becoming more popular it is not surprising that sailboats became more popular too. This image of a small, recreational sailboat is from the early 1940's.









This image is also from the 1940's. You can see that it still uses traditional lapstrake construction. This suggests that this particular sailboat was probably adapted from a rowboat. However, clearly neither of these two are working boats.









This Evinrude ad shows that boating was well established in 1955. The vessel appears to be built with high quality plywood. By 1956 Evinrude was making over 100,000 outboards a year.









Notably, in 1955 Chris Craft began producing fiberglass runabouts.









So, it is well established that boating was mature by 1955. But what is the evidence that sailing was equally established? One good example would be the Comet Class one design racing sailboat. Yachting Magazine published an article about a new 16' sailboat that was a smaller version of the Star sailboat (so it was referred to as a Star Junior). The designer had numerous requests for plans and probably over 100 were built from these. When it was adopted as a one design in New York they called it the Comet. The demand for these increased and they began to be built by boat shops. By 1940, there were 1,000 of these and by 1950 there were 3,000. In 1957 (just two years after Chris Craft began using fiberglass) the rules were changed to allow fiberglass hulls.

This Comet may not be immediately recognizable as a 1940's model. However, note that the spars are made of wood rather than aluminum.









Here you can see the hardware that is bronze rather than stainless steel.









And here you can see the very simple traveler configuration for the main sheet. This sailboat probably differs very little from the original 1932 model.


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## asdf38 (Jul 7, 2010)

I applaud your long detailed post but as for what I said it has little to do with it. I'm well aware of the rough outline of recreational boating and agree with everything you describe. Of course boating was mature by the 50's as boating has been around and in continuous development for millenia. But what did change significantly in the 60's and 70's was both the affordability and durability of boats - both because of the rising middle class and the coincidence of fiberglass building becoming commonplace at the same time. This led to a boatbuilding boom that roughly popped in the 80's and we have the benefit of still having most of those boats on the market today. If I have more time I'll try to find more numbers to back this up or if you want you could disprove it. Again the point here is in the bubble that I'm saying started roughly in the 60's and popped roughly in the 80's. Are you really willing to say that boat sales didn't increase significantly at that time?


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Okay, brehm, I guess you won't be building a puddlecat any time soon.
You are apparently far more comfortable illustrating the history of the problem in excruciating detail than working toward a solution.


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

Brehms, I think if you ask any new boat dealer if the number and availability of older boats effect their sales of negatively you'll find universal agreement that they do. Most brokers make their money from used boat sails. There a lot of really great boats out there that are 20-30 years old that can be bought for 1/2 to 1/4 of the price of a new boat of similar LOA and performance. The larger manufactures that have survived have by no means done so because of quality. They were simply better run as businesses. if you look at the example of all the SantaCruz area boat builders in the 70's and 80's, they are still sailed, cruised, and raced hard. The build quality is outstanding and arguably better than anything currently on the market, and again at half or less the cost of new.


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## brehm62 (Mar 27, 2011)

bljones said:


> Okay, brehm, I guess you won't be building a puddlecat any time soon.
> You are apparently far more comfortable illustrating the history of the problem in excruciating detail than working toward a solution.


To answer your question I'll talk about the last time I went sailing.

On May 30 my brother came over with his pickup and we took the trailer over to the lake. My brother has been fishing in boats for the past 30 years. In fact, when I called him before Memorial Day he and his wife were on the river fishing for catfish. I brought my camera and wanted him to stay at the dock and get some pictures of the boat actually sailing since of course I can't do that from inside the boat. I was just going to head out and loop back. He asked me if I was sure I could make it back to the dock okay. I thought that was an odd question but I'm guessing that it related to both the fact that I wasn't using a motor and to the size of my boat. I don't really think of my 20' boat as large but I suppose compared to, say, a 14' aluminum boat it would be. I would guess that if I had had a big pair of oars he wouldn't have asked but I suppose a canoe paddle seems entirely too small. Obviously if I had had to deal with strong tides or currents I would have needed a motor but those aren't a factor on a lake.

Anyway, I made a loop and he took some pictures and then sailed a bit and then went back to the dock. His wife had gotten off work and he had her come over and look at the boat. Then she left and we headed up the neck of the lake and back. He took the tiller on the way back. He seemed interested in the boat. However, he thought it was too complicated and that it took too long to setup and take down. I would agree with that. I consider my sailboat pretty much at the top end for daysailing. Of course I suppose a larger moored boat would be a similar amount of time since you already have the mast raised and rigged.

But, if you have to take it off a trailer then a much smaller boat with less rigging and a single sail would be a lot faster and easier. I told him about the PDR's. He seemed to have some interest in it. My guess is though that given the rather rough shape of the current PDR plans he probably wouldn't build one on his own. So, I'll have to see if he is interested in actually building one. Mostly I would like the build process to be more thoroughly documented so that first time builders wouldn't have to go to building seminars.

Now in terms of building interest. You have to understand that there is no sailing presence on Lake Sullivan. Mine is the only sailboat that has been over there in years. So, PDR's alone are not going to create one. There is no one over there to demonstrate or teach sailing. That would have to be started from scratch. I'm guessing that would require at least a couple of available PDR's.

I do know that on Brookville which already has a good sailing presence people have built PDR's. The question then is whether there would be similar interest at Lake Monroe or Eagle Creek Reservoir or perhaps Lake Lemon and Geist Reservoir. And, would PDR's help someplace like Acton Lake at Hueston Woods? I don't really know because I'm not in contact with the various sailing clubs. However, judging by Brookville I think there would be some interest.

So, I do have some interest in this but I think the first step would be some more detailed and thoroughly documented plans preferably either with video or lots of pictures. What do you think?


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## brehm62 (Mar 27, 2011)

Here is a graph of boat sales from 1980 - 2009. It's kind of small so I hope you can see it okay. I limited the chart to Inboards, Canoes, and Sailboats. I did this because the number of Outboard boat sales are much greater and reduce the clarity of the chart. However, I can tell you that Outboard sales are similar to Canoe sales.

You should note that there has been an increase in Inboard sales. Canoe sales seem fairly steady while the biggest change has been a huge drop in Sailboat sales. I realize that this gets a bit complicated. However, if older boats were the problem then Inboard sales should also be down (and they are not). Now I suppose you could make the argument that an Inboard would be determined by the life of the engine rather than the hull. However, even if we assumed that to be true then we would have no explanation of why Outboard sales are not down (since obviously the engine is easy to replace).

I understand that dealers may have theories about why boats don't sell but the evidence just doesn't support the notion that it is because of used boats. Canoes last a long, long time and are easily repaired. If this theory were correct and something like older Snarks were depressing the low end for sailboats then older canoes should be having the same effect on canoe sales.


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## WDS123 (Apr 2, 2011)

Junior and Community Sailing is booming


New sailboat sales are stagnant - in large part because sailboats are well built and last a long time. 


A Lido 14 can be had for as little as $500 on Craigslist with trailer, not race ready, but we are talking entry level starter boats.


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## asdf38 (Jul 7, 2010)

brehm62 said:


> I understand that dealers may have theories about why boats don't sell but the evidence just doesn't support the notion that it is because of used boats. Canoes last a long, long time and are easily repaired. If this theory were correct and something like older Snarks were depressing the low end for sailboats then older canoes should be having the same effect on canoe sales.


I still don't understand your stance. Lets take a look at housing starts:
Google Image Result for http://www.creditwritedowns.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/New-Housing-Starts.jpg

According to this chart hosing starts peaked around the 70's (other sources differ but none have significant increases from then to anytime afterward). Given that we know the population has been growing at a healthy rate, it's safe to say that judging the popularity of having a home can't be done by viewing housing starts. It can also be stated unequivocally that the used home market has a huge negative impact on the new home market.

What this chart partially illustrates is the boom of the middle class that began in the 50's and peaked around the 70's that resulted in a boom in housing sales. Again I don't have a great chart for boat sales but it's not speculation to say that the same forces creating the housing boom would have carried into the boat market at the same time. Combine that with the proliferation of fiberglass building at the time and you have a unique phenomenon in the boat market. A new type of highly durable boat that, over time created essentially a new used boat market that, by roughly the 80's, put significant (new) pressure on new boat sales.

I'm quite sure that used canoe sales do have a huge negative impact on new canoe sales. Personally, given the number of them on craigslist I wouldn't buy a new canoe. But a big difference in canoes is that they have always been more affordable, even the wooden ones from both a purchase and upkeep perspective.


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## brehm62 (Mar 27, 2011)

asdf38 said:


> According to this chart hosing starts peaked around the 70's (other sources differ but none have significant increases from then to anytime afterward). Given that we know the population has been growing at a healthy rate, it's safe to say that judging the popularity of having a home can't be done by viewing housing starts. It can also be stated unequivocally that the used home market has a huge negative impact on the new home market.


Actually, your interpretation appears to be incorrect. Pre-existing home sales match pretty closely with new home sales. When new home sales go up so do pre-existing homes. When new home sales go down so do pre-existing homes. For the most part you can just lump them together and treat pre-existing homes the same as new homes at a lower price point.



> What this chart partially illustrates is the boom of the middle class that began in the 50's and peaked around the 70's that resulted in a boom in housing sales.


No. That interpretation is not accurate. You would need to include both the newer trend of apartment ownership (rather than just rental) and manufactured housing to get the full picture. The number of actual owned homes has steadily increased with the population.



> Again I don't have a great chart for boat sales but it's not speculation to say that the same forces creating the housing boom would have carried into the boat market at the same time.


So, you are claiming that boat sales peaked in the 1970's and are down since then? What evidence do you have of this? I in fact gave you good evidence that this is not the case at all for boating in general. It only appears to be affecting sailboats.



> Combine that with the proliferation of fiberglass building at the time and you have a unique phenomenon in the boat market. A new type of highly durable boat that, over time created essentially a new used boat market that, by roughly the 80's, put significant (new) pressure on new boat sales.


Again, it's a nice theory; it seems logical and reasonable. But, there is no evidence. Inboard boats would have the same longevity except for the engines. So, if your theory were correct then what we should be seeing over time is an increase in inboard motor sales as people hold onto older boats and replace the engines. We don't see that. Back in 1980 the number of inboard engines bought was up. This continued until about 1990 and then fell off. The rate of engine sales relative to new inboard boat purchases has been steady since then. If your theory were correct then we would see a steady increase in the ratio of engine purchase to new inboard sales and that is not there. Outboard motor sales have had a similar steady ratio since about 1990. Again, if owners were holding onto outboard boats longer then the ratio of outboard motor sales would rise over time. It doesn't.



> I'm quite sure that used canoe sales do have a huge negative impact on new canoe sales.


Canoes sold
1980 - 105,000
2001 - 105,000

Where's the trend?

Again, sailboat sales are down but it is not because of the baby boomers and it is not because of fiberglass or used sailboats. Sailboats clearly have a trend that is not shown with other watercraft.


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

I don't think this is an argument to be made nor won. Good luck B. WDS is in the business. I' ll go with his experience on the used boat topic.


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## brehm62 (Mar 27, 2011)

puddinlegs said:


> I think if you ask any new boat dealer if the number and availability of older boats effect their sales of negatively you'll find universal agreement that they do. Most brokers make their money from used boat sails.


What then do you make of this chart? Do you suppose the rapid increase in average sailboat prices from 2003 - 2007 might have something to do with the drop?


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## asdf38 (Jul 7, 2010)

brehm62 said:


> Actually, your interpretation appears to be incorrect. Pre-existing home sales match pretty closely with new home sales. When new home sales go up so do pre-existing homes. When new home sales go down so do pre-existing homes. For the most part you can just lump them together and treat pre-existing homes the same as new homes at a lower price point.


The point is that when new home sales decline it doesn't mean that the number of people living in homes declines. So long as new home construction outpaces home destruction then the number of units is still growing. This is my point with boats.

And again, on top of that fiberglass boats, which greatly increased durability only came on to the new scene in numbers in 60's which means that they only came onto the used scene in numbers, 10-20 years later when, guess what, there was a significant collapse in boat manufacturing.

I just don't think canoe's are in the same class of purchase as sailboats. Toasters are pretty durable also but I wouldn't try to use the same reasoning to explain their sales cycle. Inboard engines don't have the durability that sailboat hulls/rigs do. A well kept inboard can last decades but on average they don't. Many older sailboats, mine included have original rigs and sails but have been re-powered. The reason this happens more often on a sailboat than a motor boat is that the cost ratio between the engine (one of the least durable major parts in practice) and the rest of the boat is low. Thus many sailboats get new engines and remain on the market when a roughly comparable motor boat might be scrapped.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

I still think that most of you are ignoring the elephant in the room. The decline in sailing since the '60's-'70's is due to to major demographic factors:

Working couples have far less time to devote to leisure activities than the traditional "Leave it to Beaver" family did. The "pie" of available time has gotten smaller.

What's left of that shrinking leisure time with the family is far more fragmented than it was in the '70s with thousands of cable TV channels, video games, Internet on the computer, soccer/hockey/lacrosse leagues, SAT prep classes, etc. So the "shrinking pie" of time is sliced up into even smaller pieces.

Sailing takes a large investment in time, and the remaining slices of time are not large enough to accommodate it as a hobby for an increasing number of people. Golf takes up large chunks of time, and it is also in decline. (I gave up golf in order to have time for sailing.)


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## brehm62 (Mar 27, 2011)

I think it is a shame that people are still clinging to these fanciful causes for the decline in sailing.

It has nothing to do with baby boomers; the population today is larger than it was in the 1960's and 1970's. It isn't because there are fewer children; there are in fact more.

Sailing is declining because of fiberglass hulls? This makes no sense. If the market were actually overloaded with lots of used sailboats then these would tend to be absorbed until the available volume declined again. There is no problem with Kayak sales which cost an average of $500 new. There is no problem with Canoe sales which cost an average of $600 new. They sell hundreds of thousands of these every year. Pedal boats are similar in price and these are selling too.

There is today only a single manufacturer of entry level sailboats, Meyer, who makes the Snark which runs about $1,000. These boats are not available in sporting goods stores. Kayaks, canoes, and pedal boats are. However, even if these were readily available no one seems to be using them in youth events. Everyone seems to prefer the more expensive Sunfish.

Today, many sailing organizations have an aging membership and tend to be very closed off and internally oriented. There are youth sailing programs but these tend to be on the whole a joke. I believe the largest sailing organization in Indiana is not that far from me, the Monroe Sailing Association. If you look at the Youth Sailing Camps it seems promising. They can take 12 at a time and they run 8 separate camps. So, they could potentially train 96 youths every year. The adult classes can take 10 at a time and they have 10 classes. So, they could potentially instruct 100 adults per year. If they taught 196 new sailors every year that would certainly be commendable. In reality this doesn't happen. The classes are nowhere near full and the membership stays stagnant at just over 100 members. Part of the problem could be cost which is $180 per child for the camps and $200 per adult for the classes. They don't seem to have anything like an introductory program or any kind of youth racing or regattas. They do have light boat races for Thistles and Lightnings but these are typically crewed by competitive middle aged men. There's no evidence of a Sunfish or Laser racing program. This is an organization that is going nowhere fast. I would guess that this is typical of many sailing organizations.


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## brehm62 (Mar 27, 2011)

RhythmDoctor said:


> Sailing takes a large investment in time, and the remaining slices of time are not large enough to accommodate it as a hobby for an increasing number of people.


I would say that you have a very good point except that boating in general is not in decline. So the decline has to be something that is different about sailing than outboards, Jetski's, canoes, and kayaks. None of these are in decline.


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## brehm62 (Mar 27, 2011)

bljones said:


> Okay, brehm, I guess you won't be building a puddlecat any time soon.


I've been thinking about picking up some sheet goods the next time I'm in Terre Haute. The normal material would probably be 1/4" ACX. I've been wondering about using BCX or perhaps even 1/4" OSB. I've been wondering how big the floatation chambers really need to be. I've been wondering what actually could be used for spars, what the simplest sailplan would be and how hard it would be to make a sail. I should probably start a new thread on PDR design.


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

brehm62 said:


> I would say that you have a very good point except that boating in general is not in decline. So the decline has to be something that is different about sailing than outboards, Jetski's, canoes, and kayaks. None of these are in decline.


Power boating is very much in decline in the Seattle area. I'm thinking of all the dealers and brokers that have closed up shop over the past three years. Probably because of the relatively high cost of living/lack of disposable income/etc... more than anything else. Lot's of rack storage available, and very very few power boats of any type out on Puget Sound it seems this summer, but I haven't been in the south sound or the smaller lakes nearby. I'm sure you'll disagree and that's ok too.  With the exception of the Lake Michigan shore, Indiana most likely has very different sales demographics, type of boating, etc... than we have out this way so your observations might be very different.


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

brehm62 said:


> . There are youth sailing programs but these tend to be on the whole a joke. I believe the largest sailing organization in Indiana is not that far from me, the Monroe Sailing Association. If you look at the Youth Sailing Camps it seems promising.


Most of the local clubs out here run summer sailing programs and camps that are reasonable $$$, and don't require membership. There's also a couple of active non-profit sailing centers that seem busy, so I don't know if I'd necessarily agree with you that youth sailing programs tend to be a joke. There are a lot of things competing for the youth market out this way. Heck, you can still ski in June if you want, and there's baseball, lacrosse, etc..


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## Sublime (Sep 11, 2010)

It's hard to say, really. I think the general population is more apt to take the easy road. Even my father-in-law thinks being able to move a boat without an engine is some magical voodoo ****. 
Flying around dragged behind a powerboat is more fun for the modern day kids. Just like video games are more fun than marbles these days and many parents can't stand it for their children to be bored.

Sailing is not really a spectator sport so those watching sailboats, if they aren't taken by the grace and beauty of these vessels, don't see the fun in it. From the outside, it looks boring. The thrill is in participation. There's still interest though. If it comes up in conversation, I frequently hear "I've always wanted to go sailing".

Unfortunately, sailing has a reputation for requiring lots of money. Recently a co-worker believed he needed to take expensive classes and get a boat to get into sailing. I told him to just show up for the next race and tell everyone he's looking to crew. If he shows up with food or beer, he'll get a ride pretty quick.

Not everyone has the time, patience, or even the will to learn sailing and that's okay. To each their own.



RhythmDoctor said:


> (I gave up golf in order to have time for sailing.)


A good trade me thinks! 

A friend of mine said it best. "No other sport can be as relaxing or as thrilling as sailing."


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

brehm62 said:


> I would say that you have a very good point except that boating in general is not in decline. So the decline has to be something that is different about sailing than outboards, Jetski's, canoes, and kayaks. None of these are in decline.


You're trying to refute my example, but you're unwittingly supporting it. How many Jetskis existed in the '70s? Kayaks existed, but could you walk into your local sporting goods store and buy one?

You are correct that those things are not in decline - in fact, their growth has been explosive. But they contribute to the fragmentation in the market, and they squeeze out the older legacy options. There is less free time in people's lives, and what free time there is gets taken by these new hobbies that didn't even exist in the '70s.

Back in the '70s, the young daredevils all wanted to build little hydroplanes from kits and put a big outboard on them. You don't even see those now, because the jetski/waverunners have all taken over - they're faster, more seaworthy, and safer than the hydroplanes (but still dangerous in the wrong hands).

To put it bluntly, sailing is in decline because people are doing other stuff.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

brehm62 said:


> There is today only a single manufacturer of entry level sailboats, Meyer, who makes the Snark which runs about $1,000. These boats are not available in sporting goods stores. Kayaks, canoes, and pedal boats are. However, even if these were readily available no one seems to be using them in youth events. Everyone seems to prefer the more expensive Sunfish.
> 
> . There are youth sailing programs but these tend to be on the whole a joke. I believe the largest sailing organization in Indiana is not that far from me, the Monroe Sailing Association. If you look at the Youth Sailing Camps it seems promising. They can take 12 at a time and they run 8 separate camps. So, they could potentially train 96 youths every year. The adult classes can take 10 at a time and they have 10 classes. So, they could potentially instruct 100 adults per year. If they taught 196 new sailors every year that would certainly be commendable. In reality this doesn't happen. The classes are nowhere near full and the membership stays stagnant at just over 100 members. Part of the problem could be cost which is $180 per child for the camps and $200 per adult for the classes. They don't seem to have anything like an introductory program or any kind of youth racing or regattas. They do have light boat races for Thistles and Lightnings but these are typically crewed by competitive middle aged men. There's no evidence of a Sunfish or Laser racing program. This is an organization that is going nowhere fast. I would guess that this is typical of many sailing organizations.


You are determined to keep arguing until we all throw up our hands and agree that you are indeed the sailing sage of the ages from that center of the sailing universe...
Indiana.

Your condescending attitude is tiresome and unearned.

Let's start with your comments on "Starter" sailboats and pricing- rotomolded kayaks and canoes and paddleboats are cheaper than sailboats because they don't require the hardware and structure to support a mast, they don't require daggerboards and rudders and sails and masts and booms and flotation and...
...

I don't know where the idea of the "starter sailboat" budget of $1000 came from, or who determines what a "starter sailboat" is, but If we're going to discuss "starter " boats let's use a 21st century budget and an apples to apples comparison. 
A family has $3500 to spend on a brand new fun toy. They can buy a Hobie Bravo, A Bic Byte ...
or a 10' inflatable with a 15 hp OB...and a tube.
or an off-brand quad ATV.
Two of the examples above go fast and can be used immediately after getting off the back of the truck. One is slower and requires a half hour of set-up.
What do you think your kids want?

Have you ever seen a Snark? Ever seen a Sunfish up close? The Sunfish wouldn't be my choice of starter boats, but it is a tough, forgiving, easy to sail design, a hell of a lot more durable than a Snark, which is why there are a ton of 30 year old sunfish still sailing...and very very few 30 year old Snarks... which is why they are a popular choice for rental programs.

Sailing schools are a perfect example of supply and demand- the demand determines how many boats they have and how many instructors, etc.
If you think the cost is high, as I have stated before, have you priced any other day camp or day care during the summer?
$180/week is a bargain.

Ever joined a sailing school?
Ever volunteered to help out?
Ever been a member of a club?

If the answer to any or all of the above is "no", then your opinion has all the value of the depth of the experience which has informed it.

It also means you're part of the problem.

Negativity and criticism is easy. If you are truly concerned about the current state of sailing, as you certainly must be to continue to argue as passionately and verbosely as you have, then what are YOU going to do about it?
What have YOU done lately to spread the sailing message?


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## asdf38 (Jul 7, 2010)

brehm62 said:


> Sailing is declining because of fiberglass hulls?


That's the opposite of the point I'm trying to make. I'm saying that you can't conclude that sailing is in decline simply by glancing at new boat sales numbers without digging any deeper. I don't think sailing is in significant decline. Perhaps it's just not growing. You also can't compare sailboats to canoes. Even given the sad state of sailboat use I'd actually argue that sailboats spend a higher percentage of time being used than canoes, which sit in backyards and garages across the country whereas a sailboat is large enough and expensive enough that most people sell them when they're done.

I think it's a little too easy to jump on the "it's in decline - people just don't have the attention span anymore" bandwagon. It sounds good, and I think there is a component of truth to it (most specifically what RhythmDoctor is saying - there are simply more ways to spend time), but I think it's being overblown. For what it's worth, I'm 29 and I remember a whole thread of young people on here. So there are still some people jumping in.


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## brehm62 (Mar 27, 2011)

Sublime said:


> Flying around dragged behind a powerboat is more fun for the modern day kids.


Actually, skiing is way down, less than half what it used to be. My guess would be that the speed demons are buying jetski's now. After all, it doesn't require any assistance to use a jetski like it does to water ski.



> Sailing is not really a spectator sport so those watching sailboats, if they aren't taken by the grace and beauty of these vessels, don't see the fun in it. From the outside, it looks boring. The thrill is in participation.


I've been to sail-ins with boat builders. Generally the enthusiasts are men with very little participation from wives and kids. That's a sure road to nowhere.



> There's still interest though. If it comes up in conversation, I frequently hear "I've always wanted to go sailing".


Sailing is interesting, just for the most part it isn't accessible.



> Unfortunately, sailing has a reputation for requiring lots of money. Recently a co-worker believed he needed to take expensive classes and get a boat to get into sailing. I told him to just show up for the next race and tell everyone he's looking to crew. If he shows up with food or beer, he'll get a ride pretty quick.


Yeah, that wouldn't work so well at Lake Monroe. No one wants to be racing a Lightening with an inexperienced partner. Perhaps someone could show up for one of the regattas.


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## brehm62 (Mar 27, 2011)

bljones said:


> You are determined to keep arguing until we all throw up our hands and


It doesn't surprise me that you would misunderstand my posts. This happens a lot when you have a text-only environment.

The word 'sailboat' is not a simple concept. It is actually a collection of different markets that would more naturally be divided into completely different groups if we were talking about something like cars.

You have motorhomes that range in price from about $70k - $400k. The big sailing cruisers are similar to these. They are designed to have living space and necessary ammenities. There isn't any handy way to cut down on the price because both require substantial management of electricity, potable water, and sewage. Both need substantial living space as well as cooking and usually refrigeration facilities. Both need hot water supplies and often air conditioning or heating. This can also mean management of bottled gas or alcohol.

At the bottom end you have things like motor scooters which can provide primary transportation from around $500 to $4500. This overlaps with low end motorcycles and things that are purely recreational like four wheelers, dirt bikes, and go-carts. For sailboats this would run from things like Snarks up to Sunfish. It seems like most of the sailboats in this price range come from Meyer and Laser Performance. This range is primarily about low cost and ease of use.

From about $4,500 - $20,000 you primarily have regular road bikes (and the bulk of the used car market). In terms of new sailboats you don't have much beyond the Hunter 15, Hunter 18, West Wight Potter 15, and the Hobie cats (and again the bulk of the used sailboat market).

From about $20k to $70k you have the great majority of cars, trucks, minivans, and vans for sale. Interestingly this is also where the West Wight Potter 19, MacGregor 26, Hunter 22, and Catalina 22 start. This range is mostly about compromise. Boats and cars to tend balance price, quality, convenience, and amenities.

Generally speaking you can race almost anything from go-carts to multi-million dollar cars and the same applies to sailboats. And, like cars when racing is involved it can drive up the cost.

I assume most anyone would agree that you can't buy a new motorhome or cruising sailboat for less than about $70k.

I assume most people would agree that the common price range for both cars and sailboats higher than daysailers starts at about $20k.

I assume that most people would agree that vehicles less than $20k cannot fulfill all requirements. For example, a $10k motorcycle provides no environmental controls or protection from the weather. A Hunter 15 has no living space or amenities onboard.

When you get down to under $4,500 you are down to something either purely recreational or compromised in favor of price. For example, while a $4,500 motorcycle or motor scooter might take you coast to coast it would not be as comfortable as a real road bike. And, while a Sunfish does have a limited racing ability it doesn't have the capacity for two adults for example.



> Let's start with your comments on "Starter" sailboats and pricing- rotomolded kayaks and canoes and paddleboats are cheaper than sailboats because they don't require the hardware and structure to support a mast, they don't require daggerboards and rudders and sails and masts and booms and flotation and...


I think a sailboat would tend to cost at least $200 more because of the cost of the rudder, centerboard, spars, and sail. Of course, a lot of this has to do with volume. You can keep down prices for kayaks that you sell 50,000 of more easily than you can for sailboats you only sell 500 of. This is probably why you can buy a pedal boat for $500 which seems to be only slightly less material and complexity than a small sailboat which is $1,000. If the volume were the same you could probably buy a Snark for more like $650.



> Have you ever seen a Snark?


Yes, here is a picture in fact. To me, that is not a lot of free-board for two adults. I'd hate to be sailing that in choppy conditions.











> Ever seen a Sunfish up close? The Sunfish wouldn't be my choice of starter boats


Well, let's face it, none of the light racers are in the same class as something like a Precision 15 which to me is a nice little sailing dinghy.



> but it is a tough, forgiving, easy to sail design, a hell of a lot more durable than a Snark


I think there is no doubt that at 4.5x the price they can take more care with the manufacture and quality. And, I have heard of problems like rudder delamination even on new Snarks.



> If you think the cost is high, as I have stated before, have you priced any other day camp or day care during the summer?
> $180/week is a bargain.


Again I think you are misunderstanding me. A five day camp with boats and instructors provided seems reasonable for $180-$200 which is what most of these run. What I was talking about was some kind of introductory program rather than detailed instruction on how to sail.



> Ever joined a sailing school?
> Ever volunteered to help out?
> Ever been a member of a club?


The nearest one to me is about 50 miles away. It's something I might do in the future.



> what are YOU going to do about it?


I went to Lowes and bought 3 sheets of 1/4" BCX plywood ($37), a gallon of latex primer ($20) and a gallon of latex porch paint ($25). I bought one 1x6x8' clear pine to use as rudder and centerboard stock ($16). I also bought three 2x4x108" boards and will probably use one for the mast ($9). I bought a 1x10x8' southern yellow pine board ($6) and might use this for chine logs. So that's about $120.

The PD Racers seem similar to me to something like a Laser Performance Bug or Pram. But these boats run about $1,900.



> What have YOU done lately to spread the sailing message?


I took my sailboat to a local lake that has not had a sailboat on it in many years. Assuming I can get a PDR built I'll take it over there and try it out. That should provide about the lowest possible cost for a sailboat for someone who doesn't have one. It should also be much less complex to sail and faster and easier to setup.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

brehm62 said:


> It doesn't surprise me that you would misunderstand my posts.


I'm understanding them just fine, thanks. Maybe you might want to take a shot at understanding ours. Your pointless pointy-headed pounding on pointless points prevents you from pondering the possiblity, perchance probability, of your precious proof-poor prattling proving puerile.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

if you're going to spend the money and time on building a pdr, which sails about as well as it looks like it would sail, might as well buy two more sheets of ply and build a puddlecat, which can actually get out of it's own way.


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## Mormandeus (Jun 25, 2011)

Hate to horn in on the amusing byplay but up here in the Maritimes sailing is on the upswing (at least in my area). When the economy tanks the toys are the first to go. What I am seeing is the decline in powerboating ... especially the large cruisers... with an increase in older sailboats (many from the States cheap) being acquired to replace the money hogs and still have the aquatic camper. Unfortunately many of these boats are just that, campers or the weekend cottage getting little use for their intended purpose of sailing..
Same thing goes for the canoes, kayaks and varied other lesser craft - on the water for few dollars.

Sailing does fall under the mystique of being a rich person activity for those who do not bother to research things but for those that do they can find some level of affordability. Going to Wal-mart and getting a paddleboat is simply easier.

I think that as fuel prices continue to rise and people start looking for alternatives to big stinkpots, RV's and cottages that sailing might just have a resurgence in popularity.

Fair winds


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

I'm still amused... This is the only sailing thread that someone insists a Sunfish is a racing dingy. Personal limitations don't make for good definitions.


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## brehm62 (Mar 27, 2011)

GeorgeB said:


> For about the same amount of plywood, why not make a proper dinghy? The el Toro, developed here on San Francisco Bay is a tough and seaworthy little boat.


I don't think I ever really addressed this. I think the El Toro is a nice little sailboat. The main issues I have with it are that I can't find free plans; someone would have to purchase them. Secondly, it doesn't seem to be designed for very much weight, maybe two children. I think two adults is a more reasonable expectation. Also, I've seen these under construction like this image here:









And, I think this level of complexity might be a bit much for first time builders. I'm also wondering too with the same weight, same width, and same length as a PDR would there be that much difference in sailing performance? I guess rather than wondering it is easier to just check the Portsmouth handicap. The El Toro is 127 while PDR is 140. So, PDR is a bit slower but that is very close to the number for West Wight Potter 15. That surprises me since the WWP 15 is nearly twice as long.


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## brehm62 (Mar 27, 2011)

bljones said:


> I'm understanding them just fine, thanks.


Perhaps or perhaps not.



> Maybe you might want to take a shot at understanding ours.


I don't know who else you are speaking for but I went back and looked at your posts and all you talked about was building a puddle cat. I'm not sure what I'm missing there.



> Your pointless pointy-headed pounding . . .


You must have had a bad day. Oh, by the way, the low buck projects idea on your website is a nice touch.


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## brehm62 (Mar 27, 2011)

bljones said:


> if you're going to spend the money and time on building a pdr, which sails about as well as it looks like it would sail, might as well buy two more sheets of ply and build a puddlecat, which can actually get out of it's own way.


Well, I have no doubt that a puddle cat would be faster. I also know that most people would not sail a catamaran.


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## brehm62 (Mar 27, 2011)

puddinlegs said:


> I'm still amused... This is the only sailing thread that someone insists a Sunfish is a racing dingy. Personal limitations don't make for good definitions.


You would prefer something more like this?










I can assure you that this is beyond my skill level.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

brehm62 said:


> Well, I have no doubt that a puddle cat would be faster. I also know that most people would not sail a catamaran.


Really? Based on experience, a poll or simply your own biased opinion based on a shallow pool of knowledge?
Maybe you might want to explain your answer to the people at Hobie, or Gemini.


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## Dean101 (Apr 26, 2011)

brehm62 said:


> Well, I have no doubt that a puddle cat would be faster. I also know that most people would not sail a catamaran.


This has been an interestng little... er... discussion? I'm not following this logic though. If I had never been sailing and I had my choice of stepping into a dingy that could flip with a stought sneeze or a catamaran which is inherently more stable (not getting into capsize ratios, AVS, etc..), why would I choose not to learn on the cat?

Economics, demographics, time, lack of family participation, cheap older boats.... Maybe they all play a part. Several of the reasons cited so far played into my decision to sell my first boat. When I'm in a position to buy another, most of those same reasons will influence the purchase. Most of what I see and hear from people around me concerning disposable income to invest in a hobby is not so much a lack of money so much as it is distrust in the powers that be to prevent another economic crisis. Read the news. Every day economic stability in some part of the world is mentioned, usually with negativity, and people like me wonder what they will do if/when it happens again. If they just knew things were back on track then they would probably consider spending more money on hobbies.

That's just my opinion. I would still like to know why most people won't sail a catamaran since charter companies and sailing magazines are full of them. Why spend millions in advertising for a product nobody wants?


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

Dean101 said:


> This has been an interestng little... er... discussion? I'm not following this logic though. If I had never been sailing and I had my choice of stepping into a dingy that could flip with a stought sneeze or a catamaran which is inherently more stable (not getting into capsize ratios, AVS, etc..), why would I choose not to learn on the cat?


You are comparing learning how to eat an apple that you only need bite into with learning how to eat an orange that you have to peel first and then eat. Both are food, yes, but both require different methods to fill your stomach.

Sailing a monohull is a little different from sailing a cat. They each react differently.

Yes, a cat may be more stable, but capsize one over a certain size and you'll never get it righted whereas with no obstructions beneath the surface, chances are a monohull will right itself.

Now, if you had asked why buy a small, tippy monohull instead of a relatively more stable 40 foot monohull, that comparison has been covered extensively.


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## brehm62 (Mar 27, 2011)

bljones said:


> Really? Based on experience, a poll or simply your own biased opinion based on a shallow pool of knowledge?


You would hardly be the first person to bolster your arguments with personal attacks. Maybe if you toss out a few more you can even convince yourself.



> Maybe you might want to explain your answer to the people at Hobie, or Gemini.


Gemini is a popular cruising catamaran but it has nothing to do with our discussion. We weren't talking about cruising designs.

Hobie has a popular line of light catamarans (which is on track with our discussion). Are these more popular than single hulled craft? No, not even close. Catalina has built around 60,000 units while Hobie has built around 100,000. However, you need to keep in mind that Hobie has a large line of inexpensive boats based on roto-molding. Catalina doesn't have anything that is roto-molded. If we did compare Hobie's volume with other inexpensive craft then their 100,000 units would be dwarfed by the 1,000,000 units of inexpensive single hulled craft that have been sold.

Catamarans have a reputation for getting the passengers wet, being difficult to sail, and requiring a high degree of skill. This is an excellent boat for someone who wants speed above all else. For most though, not so much.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Personal attack?
No.
If you feel attacked, maybe it is time to reevaluate your policy of stating your opinions as fact. Maybe it's time to reevaluate the validity of your opinions as well. it is what the rest of us have been doing since the first post in this thread. You should try it.

Catamarans are the rental boat of choice at most resorts.


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## brehm62 (Mar 27, 2011)

Dean101 said:


> I'm not following this logic though. If I had never been sailing and I had my choice of stepping into a dingy that could flip with a stought sneeze or a catamaran which is inherently more stable (not getting into capsize ratios, AVS, etc..), why would I choose not to learn on the cat?


Well, a puddle cat has the same beam as a puddle duck racer so there is no increase in stability. The first boat I sailed myself was a pirogue with a sprit sail and tandem seating. That wasn't a typical sailboat. I'm sure many people have gotten their first sailing experience in a friend's Hobie cat but I wonder how many of them wanted to continue sailing. There is no doubt that any sailboat where you have to hike out to keep from turning over can be scary as hell for a new sailor. I remember last year over at Lake Acton where I saw a girl of maybe 12 sailing a Sunfish. She seemed to be enjoying it and it seemed a good fit. And, I remember the three teenage boys who turned over their dinghy. I would imagine they would have loved to been on a cat.



> Economics, demographics, time, lack of family participation, cheap older boats.... Maybe they all play a part.


That wouldn't surprise me. But that is also part the point I've been making over and over. If sailboat racing is the main attraction and this is limited to older males then how could you expect any expansion. I think PDR's look hopeful but of course I may be wrong.



> Several of the reasons cited so far played into my decision to sell my first boat. When I'm in a position to buy another, most of those same reasons will influence the purchase. Most of what I see and hear from people around me concerning disposable income to invest in a hobby is not so much a lack of money so much as it is distrust in the powers that be to prevent another economic crisis. Read the news. Every day economic stability in some part of the world is mentioned, usually with negativity, and people like me wonder what they will do if/when it happens again.


Yes, I know. I've seen the conspiracy theories. There was a program not too long ago called Prophets of Doom that brought up the notion of economic collapse. It sounds good but it isn't reality. We've already done that experiment and the results were nothing like what they claimed. The truth is that economies can actually take phenomenal amounts of abuse without collapsing. Unfortunately that wouldn't be news would it nor would it sell books or get someone in front of a camera. Doom and despair, now those are marketable.


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## brehm62 (Mar 27, 2011)

bljones said:


> Maybe it's time to reevaluate the validity of your opinions as well.


Lol. My opinions could always be wrong; I'm just trying to base them on available information. When I get new information that that alters my previous conclusions my opinion changes. But if you want to convince me that your opinions are better then perhaps you could try posting some actual supporting information of your own.



> Catamarans are the rental boat of choice at most resorts.


True, if you ignore kayaks and Sunfish. For those seeking an adrenaline rush there is nothing like sailing a cat. And, this goes along with other similar adrenaline pushing activities at resorts like para-sailing. But resorts are again irrelevant. Outside of resorts para-sailing is nearly non-existent.


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

brehm62 said:


> You would prefer something more like this?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A Sunfish is a simple dingy that happens to be raced, not a racing skiff or dingy like your photo. Thousands learned to sail on them in the 60's and 70's. Anyone can sail a Sunfish including you if you aren't physically impaired in some way. Growing up, Sunfish were just 'around'. Everyone took them out.

Here you go:






And your contention no one sails cats is just silly. Hobie built thousands of the old 14 and 16's. They were also just kind of 'around' as well. Much fun for anyone who likes to go faster without a huge skill set. Of course these are still raced as well, but aren't anything like a modern F-16 or 18 high performance cats that DO require a developed skill set.

I'm guessing my son will learn to sail on a Sunfish, Optimist pram, or similar.

Kite (not para sailing... wrong decade Brehms) is quite popular in windier venues. The Gorge on the Columbia river, SF, even around here when it's blowing).

In the end Brehms, you've got a unique view of sailing viewed through the lens of your own personal experience and limitations. It's kind of like an intermediate skier based in the midwest who hasn't travelled telling the world what's 'true' in the Alps. The sailing world is much broader than you give credit.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

brehm62 said:


> Well, a puddle cat has the same beam as a puddle duck racer so there is no increase in stability.


actually, there is. There is more to stability than beam.


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## brehm62 (Mar 27, 2011)

puddinlegs said:


> A Sunfish is a simple dingy that happens to be raced, not a racing skiff or dingy like your photo.


Not really. There are a number of light dinghy's that show no particular optimization for racing. However, a Sunfish is clearly a light dinghy that was designed with racing in mind. Your objection seems to be that it doesn't go as fast a larger dinghy but then no dinghy of that size would.



> Thousands learned to sail on them in the 60's and 70's.


Yes, and Snarks too.



> Anyone can sail a Sunfish including you


I never said I couldn't sail a Sunfish. Where did you get that from?



> And your contention no one sails cats is just silly.


No, your attempt to put words in my mouth is what is silly. Hobie cats are quite popular so obviously someone is sailing them. You should be able to understand the difference between saying that _most_ people don't sail them and _no one_ sails them. For example, most people don't ride motorcycles. That is quite true. However, mangling this statement to "no one rides motorcycles" would not be true.



> Hobie built thousands of the old 14 and 16's. They were also just kind of 'around' as well. Much fun for anyone who likes to go faster without a huge skill set. Of course these are still raced as well, but aren't anything like a modern F-16 or 18 high performance cats that DO require a developed skill set.


Yes, light catamarans are good for speed and larger ones require more skill. And they built a lot of them. I'm not sure what you are disagreeing with.



> Kite (not para sailing... wrong decade Brehms) is quite popular in windier venues. The Gorge on the Columbia river, SF, even around here when it's blowing).


Yes, I understand. You are annoyed at someone so when you think they've made a mistake you pounce on it. But I wasn't wrong.
This is parasailing today in the Florida Keys.









This is parasailing today in Bali.









This is parasailing in Cairo.









This is parasailing in the Bahamas.











> The sailing world is much broader than you give credit.


Perhaps that is true. What part do you think I was leaving out?


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

One reason sailing is in decline is that learning about it has always been mainly associated with yacht clubs. I would guess that not many middle class people belong to yacht clubs now in this workaholic, two income culture as it exists today. They have really become the clubs of the 10%. i.e: The way I was introduced to sailing was through a girlfriend whose parents could afford to belong to a yacht club. Sailing would never have even become a topic of conversation in my parent's "Leave It To Beaver" suburban working class home. It's always been an exclusive and fairly uncommon activity for middle class folks, unlike golf or bowling, and has become more so now that economic polarization has done away with leisure time of what is left of a middle class.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

smurphny said:


> ... I would guess that not many middle class people belong to yacht clubs now in this workaholic, two income culture as it exists today. They have really become the clubs of the 10%. i.e: ...


Perhaps people have the perception that they are un-affordable and perhaps in some areas they are. I looked into a few yacht club memberships near me on the Chesapeake and the annual membership with slip would cost us less than what we pay for our marina slip for a season. Downside is we would have to move the boat to a working yard for storage or repair.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

It is too bad that more kids can't be introduced to sailing through yacht clubs in coordination with local schools but any activity as this is probably stifled by insurance companies, litigious mentality, excessive regulation, and expense. Just the R.E. taxes on yacht clubs' shoreside property has likely raised membership dues in most locations through the roof. There are some clubs, like one I know of on the Hudson, which are consciously kept reasonably priced but this one is a powerboat club with no sailing program. I don't know of any sailing clubs that are not pretty exclusive. Every time I'm anchored in Newport and see the hundreds of kids in little one-designs, racing across the harbor like so many water fleas, I wonder why more places don't do this.


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## brehm62 (Mar 27, 2011)

In terms of sailing/yacht clubs in my area.

Eagle Creek Sailing Club (Indianapolis) has a fixed fee of $1,000 to join and $445/year. Slip fee is $375/year.

Indianapolis Sailing Club (Geist Reservoir) has a fixed fee of $1,020 to join and $294/year. Slips start at $800/year.

Bloomington Yacht Club (Lake Lemon near Bloomington) is $400/year and $100/boat. Slip fee is $200/year.

Lake Monroe Sailing Association (Bloomington) is $50/year per family and $85 for boat and $80 facility use and $75 parking. Slips range from $1080 - $1,750/year. Mooring buoy is $795/year.

Patoka Lake Sailing Club (near French Lick) is $15/year per family.

Muncie Sailing Club has a fixed fee of $140 to join and $245/year per family and $100 per boat. Slips are $375-$475. Mooring buoy is $195. Slips and buoys subtract the $100 boat fee.

Brookville Lake Sailing Association (Richmond) is $90/year per family. Slip fees range from $1,595 - $6,775/year. Buoys from $490

Illiana Yacht Club (Wolf Lake) has a fixed fee of $275 to join and $275/year per family. There is a $50/year boat fee.


I believe Indiana has just one big water yacht club on Lake Michigan.

Hammond Yacht Club (Hammond Marina) has a fixed fee of $500 to join and $535/year per family. Slips are at the giant 918 slip marina which can handle boats from 30' - 100'. They range from $2,337 for a 30' slip to $5,618 for a 60' slip and are $91 per vessel foot for over 61'.

If we compare with the largest marina in Florida, the somewhat smaller 582 slip Dinner Key Marina at Miami. 

Hammond Marina - 40' slip with electric service is $3,187/year
Dinner Key Marina - 40' slip with electric service is $10,488/year


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## Dean101 (Apr 26, 2011)

DRFerron said:


> You are comparing learning how to eat an apple that you only need bite into with learning how to eat an orange that you have to peel first and then eat. Both are food, yes, but both require different methods to fill your stomach.
> 
> Sailing a monohull is a little different from sailing a cat. They each react differently.
> 
> ...


Having a small amount of sailing knowledge, I completely agree with you. My only point is that someone completely new to sailing will not know this. A cat and a monohull sitting side by side, small and something one might see at a beach hotspot with a fellow offering to give some lessons, these are the types of boats I was refering to. Perhaps my phrasing was off, sorry. With even a limited amount of time on each I'm sure the trainee would learn the difference. But that would come from a learning experience and would not be inherently known to the newcomer.

@ Brehm - The only puddles I'm familiar with are mud puddles so I'll take your word on the dimensions and stability issue. However, I can't see a beginner knowing much about those issues. Whether a person continues to learn and really start to enjoy sailing is a matter of personal preference. I would guess that nearly every person in this forum loves to sail or they wouldn't have the post counts that I see. I'm also sure that almost everyone knows at least one person who has tried it and decided it wasn't for them. I'll agree with the instant gratification thing mentioned earlier. That particular affliction is not limited to the young. I do know that there are always at least a couple of posts on this forum each week from someone wanting advice about what boat might work for them, how do they get into the liveaboard lifestyle, how to actually learn to sail. That tells me there is interest. I was mainly curious about your blanket statement that people don't want to sail catamarans.


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

No Brehms, that was parasailing on Lake Tahoe rather than Bali most likely.  Look, you like to argue and you like to be right. That's fine. I don't really have a horse in your observations, but will share mine.

So is sailing 'dying'? Well, numbers are down and no doubt the lousy economy is taking a toll. Sure, there's less free time than in the 70's, and in the beginning of the fiberglass era, there just weren't the number of older wood boats available to supply the baby boomers as they were coming of age. Do old boats effect new boat sales? No doubt in my mind and a common theme to most of the boat owners I know regardless of the size of boat they sail. Our boat at 22 years old was less than half the cost of a new similarly sized boat. None of the new boats in the 34' range have the same build quality, and only a very few true racer/cruisers have even similar performance.

If you're a racer looking at a new 30' keel boat, you're looking at around 90k to start even before you get much into a sail inventory. Why bother when a good Farr 30 is about 50k? You can buy a bunch of new sails and actively campaign the boat including travel and still be into it all for less than new. And again, how many 30' race boats sail as well and as fast as a Farr 30? Very very few. A Melges 32 is still about 125k used, so it's out of most folks tax bracket. I personally only know of 3 people in the past decade that have bought new (from the factory) boats: a Saga 43 (completed his circumnavigation last year!), a Beneteau 47.7, and a Beneteau 46. That's about it. The wealthiest boat owners I know all bought used boats. I don't know who you're talking to, but there are a large number of very very nice used boats that will fill most peoples' hopes and desires. For myself, if the money were not an issue, I'd get a Santa Cruz 52... It's been out of production for at least a decade.

So is the sport healthy? It's kind of stumbling along. Our Monday night beer can yesterday got out 46 boats from 22' to 40'ft. If you saw the award party afterward, I think you'd have been struck by the average age of the crowd. I'd guess late 20's early 30's. We're really fortunate. As a non-facility club, our yearly dues are $75 a year and $50 to join. Moorage here is between roughly $10 to $13 per foot and we're in the water year round. Dry storage is about $5-6 per foot. No, it's not cheap, but it's not a deal killer either. Seems we're paying the same as some of your clubs but we get 12 months for the same price.

For our largest race event, a single and double handed race, we get out around 100 boats from 22' to 70'. Race to the Straits 2011 - a set on Flickr

Cruising grounds are busy in the summer, new boat sales have tanked, local sailmaker is cranking, and the local chandleries and yards are quite busy. Other than that, I don't know what to tell you Brehms, other than some of your observations seem to be unique to your location and experience. Not that they're necessarily wrong, but just not at all applicable to all trends beyond your immediate horizon. But I will say that along with the poor economy, if half of all Americans are overweight and/or obese, I'm doubting they're going to bother much with sailing and the physical work that goes with it.


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

^^^ that's for sure  ^^^ I was guessing Tahoe, or even Kelowna BC.


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