# Rambler 100 lost keel capsized - all rescued



## ChuckA (Dec 28, 2008)

George David's supermaxi Rambler 100 , a favorite to win Fastnet, capsized between the Fastnet Rock and the Pantaenius Buoy.

Thankfully all 21 of Rambler's crew have been rescued.










Rambler 100 loses keel | The Daily Sail

more: RAMBLER 100 CAPSIZES AFTER LOSING KEEL: All 21 crew accounted for [BREAKING NEWS]*|*gCaptain


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Chuck - sorry dude, I didn't see your thread and posted the same story to the "Beyond the Edge" thread.

I'll funnel the flow over here.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

So, the big question is this: Are bulbed blades just plain bad design?


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## ChuckA (Dec 28, 2008)

This gives an idea of what fell off: ballast: 15 metric tonnes










ref: nuttyrave's sailing trivia: Rambler 100

(sorry for the wide frame)

Smack D. I searched for Rambler before I posted, but didn't find your "beyond the edge" post.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

> Smack D. I searched for Rambler before I posted, but didn't find your over the edge post.


No worries dude. Like I said, this one deserves its own thread. With all the bulbed-blade keel failures over the past few years, there's obviously a trend that needs addressing by the real designers of the sailing world.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Check this out...at about 5:00 or so for the keel mount...






PSI/SF? I'm just wondering.


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## b40Ibis (Apr 27, 2011)

I think that was a canting keel also, which adds to the structural challenge. Luckily no one died. What is scary here is that the desire to be the fastest sacrifices structural integrity and sometimes lives. This is not a harbor buoy racer but a ocean boat. Pounding thru an ocean takes its toll. I am sure for the designers and builders there will be a lot of questions, lawsuits, involved.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

When you play with rigs like this, the chance of a lawsuit per say is slimmer IMHO than with $maller player$ per say. I would think the owner of the boat would get it rescued, get players involved, and say what broke, how do we fix etc before sending the lawyers after folks.

One also knows, rigs like this are stressed, things are going to break.....part of life in the perverbial fast lane of racing, no matter the creature being driven, be it a car, boat, power or sail, truck, motorcycle............

In the end of things. glad everyone was rescued in one piece ALIVE!

Marty


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Looks pretty freakin' cold:


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)




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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)




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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Good vid here with interview of Erle W. right off the rescue boat:

Video: Rambler 100 and Monohull Record


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Peter Isler - who we below when she turtled - and had to "go for the gold" through the hatch...

http://www2.worldpub.net/images/sw/4-SWPodcast110816.mp3


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

One thing that is interesting in this story is the use of pfds. Kirby says that if it hadn't been for pfds, it would have been a disaster. Then I remembered hearing, I think in Pete's interview, that the SOP for the racers is to disable the auto-inflate...for obvious reasons.

The reason this is interesting to me is Pete's story about swimming out of the turtled boat. On the one hand, he had to swim downward quite a bit to clear the lifelines, etc. - but then he said he wasn't sure he could make it back to the surface on his own, and was lucky a mate grabbed him and pulled him up. A manual inflate pfd is the answer to both of these problems.

When buying my kit, I really debated on whether or not to get the auto or manual inflate version. I'm glad I got that manual.

Anyone here ever come up from a turtled cabin? That sounds scary as hell.

(PS - More info in this article: Scuttlebutt News: Peter Isler - Surviving to tell the story of Rambler 100 Sounds like Pete DID have the pfd inflated after he swam out., but it wasn't enough floatation to pull him in his foulies to the surface quickly enough.)


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## ChuckA (Dec 28, 2008)

Smack wrote>


> I really debated on whether or not to get the auto or manual inflate version. I'm glad I got that manual.


Even if you are sail an extreme machine (with a canting keel), I would guess that there is a greater probability that someone will end up unconsious in the water, than stuck under a turtled hull. I choose the auto inflate.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

I guess it's a pick your poison kind of thing...

a. Drown while unconscious (because you didn't tether in and/or no one else is on the boat to help you)
b. Drown while conscious (because you had to deflate your pfd to get out from under the boat)*

_*And deal with accidental inflates if you're on a wet boat._


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## MITBeta (May 13, 2011)

smackdaddy said:


> _*And deal with accidental inflates if you're on a wet boat._


The top end (read: expensive) inflatable PFDs use hydrostatic pressure sensing, rather that moisture or liquid sensing to inflate. So, in theory, they won't accidentally inflate in a rainstorm or in a breaking wave. They will, however, inflate if submerged.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

MITBeta said:


> The top end (read: expensive) inflatable PFDs use hydrostatic pressure sensing, rather that moisture or liquid sensing to inflate. So, in theory, they won't accidentally inflate in a rainstorm or in a breaking wave. They will, however, inflate if submerged.


Do you have a model MIT? How much are we talking?

Based on this incident, I'm now also looking at a PLB for my kit. I looked into the SPOT thing, but the account doesn't make sense cost-wise. I'll probably end up getting the FastFind unless I can find something better.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

They are not cheap but I've used a combination harness, hydrostatic pressure sensing inflatable for years now. I have been impressed how well it works both in terms of being totally soaked racing J-22's or my boat and not inflating, and with how quickly it inflated when I ended up in the drink. I think I paid something less than $200 for mine but these days they are somewhere around $300.00

Jeff


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

smackdaddy said:


> So, the big question is this: Are bulbed blades just plain bad design?


It certainly appears so. This factor was just discussed in another thread but to recap, prior to the early / mid 80's I had never heard of a keel falling off. Then came Drum, Simon LeBon's boat which had the lead slide off the bolts in the channel. The foundry apparently had not put anything like backers on the bottom of the bolts or bent them into a J, as was conventional. This situation was regarded then as a freak accident but it has become almost commonplace in the last decade or so.

These razor blade keels with a huge pendulum of ballast at the bottom and a tiny mounting surface against the hull are the problem IMHO - how can they possibly be engineered to take that kind of stress on such a tiny load area?

Combine the super thin, lightweight exotic material hulls with the incredible point loading of those extreme keels and you have a perfect recipe for keel failure, which is what we are seeing.

This sort of knife edge (pun intended) engineering is fine for race cars - you can pull over and walk back to the pits - but is unacceptable for offshore sailboats - people drown too easily.

IMHO, anyone who wants to take the risk of sailing one of these manifestly unseaworthy monsters offshore should have to forgo the response of the rescue services and look after themselves, no EPIRBS, no radios or SatCom etc. How many times has the Aussie Navy had to rescue Vendee Globe and other racers when boats like this failed thousands of miles from land. Taking risks is fine even admirable but if you don't take reasonable and proper precautions (a seaworthy boat for example) then you shouldn't expect others to risk their lives to pick up after you.


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## BentSailor (Nov 10, 2010)

*@Jeff_H*: Thanks for the info on that. I've been looking into picking up some more PFD's for the family (four young'ns that quickly scale out of the junior sizes!) and honestly coud do with the less cumbersome inflatable versions. I was only just talking to the wife two nights ago about it.

*@SJB:*
See my PM - I don't want to derail this thread


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Rambler was apparently coming down under to do battle with Wild Oats in the Sydney - Hobart. Not likely to be rebuilt in time. A shame, it would have made for quite a race.

Smack ... ref "Are these keels simply bad design" ... Wild Oats XI has now claimed line honours in five Hobarts plus one second to Alfa Romeo. Seems to suggest it is not the keels per se that are poorly designed, more that there was a fault with this particular one.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

SJB,

(Bleeding heart liberal alert .. )

Personally I loath these types of keels if only because of the likely effect they will have on anything living that they run into. Collisions with Sunfish are quite common off the NSW coast, with whales not so much but they do happen. I hate to think what injuries a Sunfish or Whale would suffer if they were hit by one of these things when the boat is travelling at speeds close to and exceeding 20 knots. 

Nonetheless, as per my previous post they can are built to a pretty reliable standard in most cases and failures after all are relatively few.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

tdw said:


> I hate to think what injuries a Sunfish or Whale would suffer if they were hit by one of these things when the boat is travelling at speeds close to and exceeding 20 knots.


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

tdw said:


> I hate to think what injuries a Sunfish or Whale would suffer if they were hit by one of these things when the boat is travelling at speeds close to and exceeding 20 knots.


I guess what was left of a Sunfish would just drift away to be eaten by sharks, whilst what was left of the now capsized keel-less yacht would bob around in the ocean waiting to be rescued by tax-payers funds.. but I hate to think what injuries said injured Southern Right whale would inflict on the fragile toy of a boat that just hit it at 20 knots. Either way, there would be no winners..

I think it's amazing that it hasn't happened yet. Perhaps whales are smarter than we credit them.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Its certainly happened with larger ships .. 

A quick google brought up more than a couple of instances.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

FYI

Rambler is now the right way up, still afloat and minus the rig.

The rig location is known.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...302640302.html


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

SloopJonB said:


> It certainly appears so. This factor was just discussed in another thread but to recap, prior to the early / mid 80's I had never heard of a keel falling off. Then came Drum, Simon LeBon's boat which had the lead slide off the bolts in the channel. The foundry apparently had not put anything like backers on the bottom of the bolts or bent them into a J, as was conventional. This situation was regarded then as a freak accident but it has become almost commonplace in the last decade or so.
> 
> These razor blade keels with a huge pendulum of ballast at the bottom and a tiny mounting surface against the hull are the problem IMHO - how can they possibly be engineered to take that kind of stress on such a tiny load area?
> 
> ...


You're in Canada. What's your stake in Australia's search and rescue program, guidelines, or priorities? If it's numbers, accidents, etc... you're looking for, then all power boats should be banned. And all boats with bulbs on a high aspect blade are unseaworthy? Hardly. Rambler is at the extreme of the extreme cutting edge of technology. Anyone who gets on this type of boat knows that it's much easier to be swept overboard, injured by rigging failure, or yes, even a keel failure. It's not a casual cruiser nor intended to be sailed by non-athletic sailors. Don't take offense, but I'm glad as always when these threads come up that the world isn't limited by any one individual's opinion. If so, there'd be both very little racing, and almost no advancement in yacht design including safety and reliability.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

tdw said:


> SJB,
> 
> (Bleeding heart liberal alert .. )
> 
> ...


I have to disagree - per my op, these sort of failures are now almost commonplace with these ultra extreme boats. Look at the Volvo - the rams on canting keels ripping loose and boats being abandoned. Isabelle Autissier had to be rescued TWICE in separate races in the Southern Ocean, a whole FLEET of Bavaria rent-a-racers in the Adriatic had their keels rip off, A/C boats folding in half and sinking due to the concentrated loading and on and on. This sort of thing was and should be virtually unheard of and yet starting fairly recently it seems to happen every season now, even with outfits like Farr designing the boats. I have serious doubts that it is even possible to engineer this type of structure to reliably withstand the incalculable forces involved.

This sort of ultra extreme design should be restricted to inshore racers until it is as proven as conventional technology before it is taken offshore otherwise the risk to life is simply too great. Ocean racing, especially in high latitudes, is risky enough without doing it in experimental vessels that have a known high failure rate.

Or have I simply become an old fart?


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Sloop,
If memory serves Autissier's first boat, and also the Englishman's whose name I forget who was plucked from the ocean south of Oz were both conventional keels as was the AC boat (one of the Australians) that played fold-a-boat. I don't know the Bavaria story so cannot comment.

My point was that I don't believe the concept is unsound and for mine boats like Leopard, Alfa Romeo and Wild Oats seem to have shown that a strong reliable canting keel is possible. 

My guess, and it only is a guess, is that more folk have died in cruising boat incidents in the last ten years than in racing, particularly in racing incidents caused by gear failure. Certainly in Australia I know of only one fatal incident involving a racing boat in recent times and that was when Scandia went up on a rocky outscrop south of Sydney. That had nothing to do with gear failure as such. 

Anywho, as I said I'd simply ban the bloody things on the basis of environmental vandalism and be done with it.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

tdw said:


> Sloop,
> If memory serves Autissier's first boat, and also the Englishman's whose name I forget who was plucked from the ocean south of Oz were both conventional keels as was the AC boat (one of the Australians) that played fold-a-boat. I don't know the Bavaria story so cannot comment.
> 
> My point was that I don't believe the concept is unsound and for mine boats like Leopard, Alfa Romeo and Wild Oats seem to have shown that a strong reliable canting keel is possible.
> ...


It seems that you, Puddinlegs and Bent all think I'm too conservative - has anybody passed this news to Rantar?


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

The conservative vs liberal or what ever, ALL of us have both in us......BUT< it will depend upon WHAT the topic is! Hence why telling RANTar that some are calling one conservative in boat uses/types etc, when in the political spectrum, we might be liberal! So reality is, one is BOTH!

Not that any of this made sense.........

So pudding, are ye on the E33 or the far 39 for FWB in about 45 days or so?

Marty


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## ChuckA (Dec 28, 2008)

SloopJonB wrote>


> These razor blade keels with a huge pendulum of ballast at the bottom and a tiny mounting surface against the hull are the problem IMHO - how can they possibly be engineered to take that kind of stress on such a tiny load area?
> 
> Combine the super thin, lightweight exotic material hulls with the incredible point loading of those extreme keels and you have a perfect recipe for keel failure, which is what we are seeing.
> 
> This sort of knife edge (pun intended) engineering is fine for race cars - you can pull over and walk back to the pits - but is unacceptable for offshore sailboats - people drown too easily.


Fatigue prediction - the prediction of failure due to cumulative structural damage from repetitive loading (well below the ultimate failure load) for "well characterized" materials remains somewhat of an art. The high degree of uncertainty in the load history, and thus the cumulative damage is a very difficult challenge to overcome. Throw in corrosion from the harsh salt water environment, and the difficulty steps up even further. If Rambler 100 had been 'retired' after her record-breaking transatlantic run, her breakthrough performance would have been considered an unqualified success. If she had been taken out of service for a major inspection and refitting, would the potential danger have been detected, repaired and the keel loss avoided? Instead I think she will be remembered for her dramatic, and near tragic ending.


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

Just like suspension failure in an F1 car. Sometimes they just go, 'doink'. Obviously, that would not be acceptible in your daily driver. Same with sailing. In the world of 'faster, faster, faster', that has to be expected. However, because there is a lot of trickle-down technology to the rest of us, the question needs to be asked.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Barquito said:


> Just like suspension failure in an F1 car. Sometimes they just go, 'doink'. Obviously, that would not be acceptible in your daily driver. Same with sailing. In the world of 'faster, faster, faster', that has to be expected. However, because there is a lot of trickle-down technology to the rest of us, the question needs to be asked.


I bet you just nailed the last section of the coming incident report:



> CRITICAL INQUIRY FINDINGS:
> 
> Keel went "doink".


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## ChuckA (Dec 28, 2008)

Barquito wrote>


> Just like suspension failure in an F1 car. Sometimes they just go, 'doink'.


Yes, sometimes they just go "doink", but it is not like an F1 suspension.

You can instrument the suspension of a car and drive a variety of F1 courses to characterize the loading envelope, from which engineers can design a minimal weight suspension to drive a given number of miles with a high degree of reliabilty. This is possible becasue the range of loading is well defined and understood.

If you were to design an ocean racer to reliably withstand the full range of conditions that are likely to be encountered, the boat will be heavier and more stable than the extreme machines that are breaking records today, and would be left behind by risk takers who are willing to gamble on a smaller margin of safety.

It would be more like designing an F1 Car, then driving it in the Dakar Rally. 








How long would it last?

But if by some miracle it did survive, would you then take it and run the Baha 1000?


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