# Small main sail, large jib - questions



## matthewwhill (Dec 10, 2012)

I'm about to purchase a Kent Ranger 24 which is similar to a San Juan 24.

It has a relatively small main sail and short boom compared to nearly every other sailboat I've sailed/seen. It handled fine in sea trial. It just seemed a bit foreign to me. The San Juan is similar, but its main sail area is about 10% larger than the Ranger 24.

I gather this was more common a few decades ago and most newer boats have much larger main sails and longer booms.

Any comments on the relative merits of this design? I kind of like the idea of not worrying about my family getting bonked on the head during tacks/jibes.

Any major disadvantages to the smaller main? Any advantages?


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

An SNer tenuki has a review of one here.. not detailed though and he/she hasn't been active for a couple of years.

R24 - My Product Gallery

This rig geometry was very common in the 70s and early 80s when the IOR racing rules kind of held sway over a lot of designers, and was the 'in' way to set up fast boats for a time. In reality these boats were often 'rule beaters' that weren't necessarily as fast as they could be, but they could win on the rating sheet.

In any event many many boats were produced in that time frame that to some degree emulated the winning racers of the day. We have owned a couple of these ourselves and they can be reasonably decent boats. In their extreme form, though, they had some issues primarily with sailing DDW in a stiff breeze.

On a 24 footer the issues are reduced, i.e. large, difficult to handle and sheet genoas and spinnakers - serious loads on a 40 footer, not so much on a 24. What you will probably find, though, is that when the breeze is up a bit you'll end up using very little of your main (it will be half inverted) going upwind as most of the power of the rig comes from the headsail. These boats can go to weather well when properly set up.

But the 'bad habits' downwind are not an insurmountable problem. Carefully choosing your sailing angles, wisely choosing whether or not to fly a spinnaker, etc, can make for a pretty enjoyable boat. We had a 40 footer along those lines and we had 12 years of great sailing on a boat size we couldn't have afforded any other way. But we were careful.

Our current boat's hull design is of the same era, but it has a fractional rig with a very large main that seems to have dealt with some of the issues we dealt with on the bigger boat.

In short, I wouldn't worry about it. On a 24 footer even the 'big' sails aren't.. though you may still find your winches undersized at the upper end of the wind range for the genoa. Choosing a smaller sail to start with may make it a bit easier to get to know her and her habits. - but of course in light air you'll need the oomph of the larger headsail....

Good luck!


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

This topic seems to crop up around here from time to time, often with very strong opinions on all sides. As my esteemed fellow moderator said, with skill, care, and good crew work the short comings of these rigs can be tamed and made manageable, especially in a 24 footer. But I tend to look at big jib-small mainsail rigs from a different perspective.

If you look at the evolution of sailing rig proportions, when you look at small working craft, cruising boats until the CCA and IOR racing rule era, race rigs on boats before and after the CCA and IOR race rules, the norm was large mainsails and small jibs. If you look at wind tunnel testing that seeks to compare drive to sail area, as a broad generality a fractional rig with larger mainsail, and smaller minimally overlapping jibs, tends to be more efficient than the small mainsail, big jib sail plans. 

So if this true, why does the big jib-small mainsail rig exist? As Faster noted this rig resulted from designers trying to create a rig that was faster than the race rule expected. In this case the rig proportion came from a rule which under measured the sail area related to the leech of a headsail. It resulted in boats that relied on huge jibs to sail in light to moderate breezes, but which were quickly overpowered as the wind increased. As Faster notes, initially this can be addressed by under trimming and eventually 'flagging the mainsail', but at some point there is not much you can do to keep the boat moving and under control. The net result is that the headsails on boats like these have very narrow wind ranges. For example, an AP 150% genoa may have a workable range between 2-3 knots apparent and 12 or so knots apparent, and at the upper end, the main is typically undertrimmed. If I look at the headsails on a boat like mine (and I only cite my boat since I know it very well) my AP 109% minimal lapping genoa has a range from 2-3 knots apparent up to around sustained 25 knots apparent (with a single reef in the mainsail). 

Consequently, because the headsails are used for a much narrower range of windspeeds, these boats need more frequent sail changes and so are less suitable to dealing with a building breeze shorthanded. Because these headsails are so big, the ability to adapt to building breezes by furling the jib becomes more limited as well. Most times these boats are casually sailed with something like a #2 genoa. The problem here is that these sails lack capability at the lower end of windspeed range (say less than 5-8 knots). To be fair, that simply many not be a problem for many people since many casual sailors tend to motor at this lower end of the windspeed range anyway. The other issue is that it is simply harder to drag these larger overlapping sails around the shrouds, and baby stay, making tacks way less convenient short-handed. 

In a general sense the issues associated with this rig proprtion was not so bad on a well crewed race boat. But for short handed sailing, even on a small boat, these rigs are very inconvenient. And while efficiency and ease of handling are not an end all, to me, if I were looking for a different boat to own, while I still had a choice of picking a rig for easy handling, I would have a very hard time seeing these big jib/ small mainsails as the right choice.

Respectfully,
Jeff


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## matthewwhill (Dec 10, 2012)

Thanks guys. I don't plan to race the boat. I was looking for a quality entry level day sailor / pocket cruiser.

As far as downwind misbehavior.... I have heard this many times about the San Juan 24. Some have called it a "broach coach". Specifically, what happens?

Overpowered spinnaker pushes bow down... boat oscillates? sudden weather helm? rudder out of water? excessive heel? all of the above and resulting broach?

Just thinking aloud. 

Would a strategy to avoid unruly downwind runs be to avoid the spinnaker in heavy conditions and choose the jib conservatively (tend to use smaller than required?)


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

Research Chinese (downwind) jibe (or gybe) and windward broach on the interwebs.

What happens with a broach coach in a Chinese jibe is the top of the spinnaker begins to oscillate (move from side to side). While dead down wind, the spinnaker may be positioned to one side of the boat, pulling on that side, and encouraging steering difficulties. The IOR style boats roll more easily because they lack the wide, flatter stern sections that more modern designs have, and they do not have the fuller keel, narrower beam and lower, greater ballast that dampened motion in prior traditional designs. Consequently, the boat will roll in tandem with the oscillations of the spinnaker. As the boat rolls and the stern lifts out of the water, the keel trips the boat up in the wrong direction, causing a jibe and a turn to windward, at which point the spinnaker drives the mast toward the water, and the boat broaches.

Solution: judicious application of twings (tweakers, barber hauls, etc.) when running dead down wind or near DDW to control oscillations. (I bring my sheet and guy to the rail near the shrouds as the wind approaches 20 knots.) Undertrim the pole (forward) to center the spinnaker closer to the centerline of the boat. Steer the boat to stay under the sail. Don't fly the spinnaker in too heavy air.

In a windward broach, the boat heads up excessively, the stern lifts and the boat loses steerage way, causing a broach. Again, the spinnaker drives the mast toward the water.

Solution: Overtrim the pole to windward (more guy trim), undertrim the spinnaker sheet and the mainsail sheet so both sails will immediately begin luffing as soon as the boat starts to head up, allowing the boat to stay on its feet and not heel excessively. Tension the boom vang to keep the mainsail flat so it is depowered and there is less weather helm.

I like IOR-style boats. They are beautiful boats and, although they will not plane, can be fast if sailed well. If you learn how to compensate for the idiosyncracies of the design, they can be great boats, and will often go to windward like a freight train, better and more comfortable than the lighter, modern designs that tend to pound into the waves, and faster than the traditional designs that have greater wetted surface area. Many of them are now incredible bargains because they are no longer competitive in racing and lack the modern amenities the picnic sailors seek.

Faster and JeffH are right about the design characteristics. I carry 5 different hanked-on jibs and 2 spinnakers on my boat with only a single reef point in the relatively-small mainsail. In a moderate breeze, trimming the jib can require considerable effort, along with the sail changes. On the other hand, my masthead rig allows me to fly an 800 sq. ft. spinnaker in a light breeze, putting up almost 1,000 sq. ft of sail area on a 28 ft. boat. When the wind pipes up, I drop the spinnaker and run wing and wing, and/or jibe downwind, sailing on deep, broad reaching angles at hull speed with the jib poled out to leeward. Upwind, my boat loves a full #1 genoa with a reefed main in a breeze - it will crank over to 30% heel and drive through the waves at hull speed with very little weather helm.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

Here is an example of good spinnaker trim on an IOR-influenced boat (Pearson 28) on a deep running angle, not dead downwind. The pole is not square to the wind, instead it has been eased forward to bring the spinnaker closer to the center of the boat. The twings have been trimmed to bring the guy and sheet down to lifeline level. The sail has a nice "beetle" shape due to the proper pole height and it luffs evenly starting below its shoulder. The boat is not rolling excessively, even though it is being pushed by small swell from behind.

In the video, I am making about 5-6 knots in about 10 knots of wind in the Atlantic Ocean south of Ocean City, Maryland, pretty good for a 35 year-old boat:


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

This is already a small boat (much smaller than a Catalina 25, a little smaller than a San Juan 24). Having to carry so many headsails is going to eat into your space quickly, and make it tough to cruise on with a family. Don't forget that you'll also need space below decks to carry an inflatable dinghy if you are going to sail from Seattle to the San Juans. The smallest Zodiac rolls up to a tube about 3' wide and 20" in diameter. 

A more balanced jib to main size is certainly a lot more friendly to handle and trim. The main sheet has a lot of mechanical advantage without using a winch. This will make it easier to teach kids to trim the sails. 

I bought a Catalina 25 for the same reasons as you and loved it a lot. I like how smaller boats sail. However a 12 day trip to the San Juans (with a one other crew person, first a friend then my wife) convinced me that standing height and some organized storage spaces were really useful for cruising.

I look at the interior of a KR24 and wonder where you will store 3 headsails, a dinghy, a small amount of food and clothing (what you would take backpacking for example), and still have space for 3 or 4 people to sleep. The engine well also limits cockpit storage greatly. 

I'm used to lightweight travel and do a lot of kayak and bike touring, but was surprised at hoe quickly space disappears in a sailboat.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

What's somewhat interesting to me is that our '82 Choate 40 (Kaufman) was a mid-range IOR design, without quite the 'pinched sterns' typical of earlier renditions, and with a 16 foot J and a 14 foot E not the most extreme example of those rigs either, it was a handful DDW in a breeze and needed careful attention, esp since we sailed her in an area of consistent breezes over 20 knots.

My brother had a 76 Ranger 28 (Mull) (12.5 J, 9 E) that was such a broach machine we could have produced an annual calendar of great shots nearly every windy race had we wanted to. We modified her rudder to a balanced version that was a great improvement in control.

Our current boat ('84) is a more extreme pinched end Holland design from '79 (Holland) but with a 3/4 frac rig, with a 13 foot J and a 14.5 foot E.. very different proportions. We have never come close to a serious broach and rarely gotten into any of the preliminary 'death rolls' that these boats were known for. So despite having the 'shape' that was often blamed for this behaviour, the very different (for the day) rig has made a big difference.

FWIW the Brazilian manufacturer changed the boat to a masthead rig version in a quest for more 'horsepower' sometime after our boat was built.. and while we do find our boat underpowered in the light stuff, we love the smaller headsails and manageable chutes of her present configuration.. once the breeze is over 6 or 8 knots we move along just fine despite not even running a 'genoa'...


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

Very common back in the day. My Father's first boat a '78 Cal 25-II, the boat that I grew up on had a huge headsail, I mean the thing was like a 180! (and a 110 for heavy air).
The sail would actually come back to the cockpit, but for us it was normal and we never thought anything of it.


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## matthewwhill (Dec 10, 2012)

Great insight everyone.

I found a number of these types of boats and I agree, they are an incredible bargain.

For me, it is going to be mostly a day sailor, lake boat. Then one to take out to Blake Island or one-two nights somewhere. Not a week long family cruise in the San Juans just yet. And I am not planning to race it.

I have little experience using a spinnaker, but hope to learn on this boat. For the time being I will never fly it in strong winds.

If I and my family enjoy it enough then the plan is ultimately to get "THE" perfect boat.

For down wind runs, would you guys suggest setting the main and the 150 or 130 wing-and-wing?


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

matthewwhill said:


> For down wind runs, would you guys suggest setting the main and the 150 or 130 wing-and-wing?


Sure, here is another video of an IOR-inspired P28 running wing and wing at nearly hull speed in 10-15 knots, gusting to 20 with a 135 (the #1 on this boat):


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

matthewwhill said:


> For me, it is going to be mostly a day sailor, lake boat. Then one to take out to Blake Island or one-two nights somewhere. Not a week long family cruise in the San Juans just yet.


This is different than what you said on your other thread. For overnight trips to Blake Island or going around Bainbridge Island this size should be fine. With Blake you'll still want a dinghy, but it isn't as big of a deal to drag one. For one or two nighters it is fun to camp aboard and lack of standing room is not a big deal.

Until I did my 12 night trip on the Catalina 25 I didn't think I'd want anything larger because it was so fun for day sailing and overnighters.

I did just want to point out how small this boat is compared to other boats of the same overall length. For actual cruising with a family I think you'd want something larger. Even for just couples cruising there is a big difference in the interior of the Kent Ranger 24 (which has an interior about the size of most 22s) and most 25' boats.



matthewwhill said:


> For down wind runs, would you guys suggest setting the main and the 150 or 130 wing-and-wing?


It depends a lot on the conditions. In light air that will work pretty nicely. In heavier air you probably won't need that much sail area to hit hull speed.

You'll want to experiment too and see if VMG is higher going directly down wind or doing broad reaches with occasional gybes. This can vary boat by boat.

I never thought that I'd be so interested in racing, but doing Duck Dodge (Tuesdays on Lake Union) was a very quick way for me to learn how to make my boat perform well and is a ton of fun. I usually just do the race and head home, rather than staying for the party (which can go late). It became the highlight of my week last summer.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

matthewwhill said:


> For down wind runs, would you guys suggest setting the main and the 150 or 130 wing-and-wing?


For stability the jib should be 'poled out'.. but for me, wing on wing is the least favourite point of sail. To keep the jib stable without a pole you virtually have to sail by-the-lee and on the edge of an accidental jibe, but with a pole intentionally jibing is complicated by the need to deal with the pole before and after...

I'd rather broad reach and jibe occasionally - not because it's faster (often it's not - esp in good wind) but it's just less stressful.


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## matthewwhill (Dec 10, 2012)

In heavier conditions instead of going wing and wing, would you guys choose to use just the main or just the headsail?


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

Both until I was forced down to storm jib only, although I do have an apprehension about heavy air jibes and will do a circle to tack over instead of jibing.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

For me... ultimately the main is the more stable sail.. but the consequences of an unintended gybe are more severe.. On balance ( and we did this routinely where we used to live/sail) once the wind got up we went main only and 'chicken gybed' when necessary - ie what James meant when he said 'circle to tack over'...

did I mention I don't like DDW???


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

matthewwhill said:


> In heavier conditions instead of going wing and wing, would you guys choose to use just the main or just the headsail?


On my boat I greatly prefer both and if I'm only running one it is the main only. However my boat (Pearson 28-2, not to be confused with the IOR Pearson 28 mentioned earlier in this thread) has a pretty balanced sail plan.

I don't like DDW on main only because you don't have the jib to warn of an accidental gybe. So I would do broad reaches on main only to be safer.

You'll need to try both options on your boat to see what works. Decision points should be made on what gives you a more balanced helm, which allows you to point higher if you are going upwind, and if there are any risks of mask pumping if you sail with jib only.


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## PaulinVictoria (Aug 23, 2009)

My boat is a similar configuration, I sail pretty much all the time with a 115% genoa, makes the boat plenty sailable anywhere from 4kts to 25/30kts as long as you reef the main at the appropriate times, or even drop it entirely, she sails just fine in high winds on genoa alone.
I rarely fly the 155%, it's a massive sail and is just too much of a pain to handle (I always sail short or single handed) in anything other than about 8-12kts, I have only ever hoisted the working jib (about 90% I guess) at the docks.
Dead downwind she sails OK, a little bit squirrely if there is some swell behind you, but otherwise a well mannered boat. She's quick too, I imagine she would be very easy to sail up to (and probably better) than her rating.


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## matthewwhill (Dec 10, 2012)

Thanks again. This is great.

One more question I just thought of:

Anything to keep in mind when attempting to heave to with a massive head sail? Do I have to trim the main sheet more than I am used to (which is not at all).


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

You'll just have to give it a try.. it's likely that you'll have to trim some main on to balance up compared to other boats with more even split between main/jib.. but the hull has a lot to do with all that too.


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## PaulinVictoria (Aug 23, 2009)

You're likely to reach at 2kts when hove to, and you'll probably be sat at quite an angle to the wind/waves. Depends on how powerful your rudder is too. All a big balancing act, as Faster says, give it a go and see what happens


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

I have not seen Tenuki's boat out much. I can get ahold of him if you want some info on this boat. The Ranger should not broach as much as an SJ, due to different hull designs IMHO. Should work well around here in puget sound, lk washington etc. 

marty


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## matthewwhill (Dec 10, 2012)

Thanks, yes, I'd love to get in touch with any Kent Ranger 24 owners....


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## bobmcgov (Jul 19, 2007)

matthewwhill said:


> In heavier conditions instead of going wing and wing, would you guys choose to use just the main or just the headsail?


Depends where you are sailing and what you're after. If you are just noodling around Lake Union of an afternoon, reefed main and smaller headsail will take you anywhere. Just put a preventer or boom brake on, and accidental jibes aren't that much risk. DO remember to blow the preventer before an intentional jibe, or you will be washing your windows.

If you just want some lazy reaching-back-and-forth, deploy the big jib and keep your main in the stackpack. You'll get good speed & low stress jibes. Small mains on these boat can mean poor drive, esp. in chop. You'll need some speed on if you hope to tack thru the wind.

Big breeze, open water, long hours downwind, lots of sailors prefer double headsails anyway. Saves chafe on the main and keeps the pointy end where it belongs. IOR boats are actually really good for this: your roller genoa (or a light blast reacher) flying to leeward, a smaller, high-clewed headsail poled out to windward. Many people will use a 100-110 for that. You can fly the second sail on an extra forestay, or on its own luff, or in the second groove of the furler (if it has one & can take the loads.) It's a bit fussy to jibe, so not a tactic for narrow waters.

IOR boats can make very good cruisers if you twiddle the sailplans a bit and don't horsewhip the boat downwind. You can actually lengthen the boom and mainsail foot w/out messing up rig balance on these boats, but most folks just do what we have planned: put a full-hoist G2 on a furler as your everyday working jib. Use a light Code0, gennaker, and/or spi for winds less than 10kts -- easy to handle, stows tight, drives the boat to hull speed. Roller-reef the G2 to stand in for the G3; add a solent or babystay to carry a staysail genoa and/or storm jib when it gets snotty. Mainsail requires little attention; many IOR owners don't reef it til ~30kts.

Here's a tentative sailplan revision for our Ballad:



The 150% G1 is replaced with a higher-aspect 138% on a furler. All our other sails are set flying -- a nylon 150 for light days (removable furler to the anchor platform), a 100% spinnaker staysail/staysail genoa for winds in the 30s, and a 50sqft storm jib hoisted flying on the spi pole topping lift. When the main needs replacing after a few seasons, we may opt for a longer boom.

I'd _prefer_ a more balanced rig, but most of the boats we have to choose from in our price range are either narrow, heavy, traditional voyagers, or IOR-optimized racer-cruisers with livelier sailing characteristics but large headsail inventories. We've chosen the latter path & will spend the needed effort to minimize sail handling. It'll be fine.


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## matthewwhill (Dec 10, 2012)

Update-

Been out a couple times in the new Kent Ranger. Handled heavy swell and chop right into 18-20 knot winds while I was motoring to its new mooring.

Also went out sailing in 6-8 knots. Moves well in light air. Went on downwind runs wing and wing with 130 headsail. The small boom is nice in a way since it made me less concerned about unintentional jibes..... but that leads me to this perhaps stupid question:

Doesn't having such a small main sail in these types of boats cost you a lot of speed?

Anyway, very happy with it so far.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Good to hear..



matthewwhill said:


> Update-
> ......
> Doesn't having such a small main sail in these types of boats cost you a lot of speed?
> .


The sail area for the boat is not usually 'less' than any other. It's a matter of distribution. So the sail area you've 'lost' in the skinny main was made up for in the larger headsails and the (relatively speaking) big spinnakers.

If you're not flying a kite then you might lose some area downwind unless you pole out your genoa. When it's windy the smaller jib and the main will be plenty.. esp down low on your learning curve.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

Also, while the main has a short boom, it is a high aspect ratio main. Upwind the luff height generates force, even though the sail is not wide. Few would argue that IOR boats do not sail well upwind.

Get that 170% genoa, that oversized masthead kite, and that extra long spinnaker pole and start enjoying that boat's speed. Just beware of the death rolls...


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## matthewwhill (Dec 10, 2012)

Thanks... another stupid question:

Can I use the spinnaker pole as a whisker pole to pole out the genoa?


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

Sure, although it may be too short for a larger jib. It also does not suffer the same compression pressure, so you can use a thinner, lighter extendable whisker pole to pole out your larger jibs. You can attach a topping lift to the end of the whisker pole to keep it from dipping in the water. 

In racing, you will be penalized for having a spinnaker pole longer than "J" (the horizontal length from the stem to the vertical line created by the mast). Similarly, I believe the foot of your spinnaker cannot exceed "J" x 1.8 and the luff cannot exceed 95% of the square root of "I" squared plus "J" squared without penalty.

If you do not race, you can use a longer pole and a larger spinnaker, subject only to your ability to handle them and ultimately your boat's dimensions. If you look at the old photos of racing yachts, you can see that they carried huge spinnakers on long poles to gain maximum sail area downwind.


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## matthewwhill (Dec 10, 2012)

Don't plan on racing... If the spinnaker pole turns out to be too short for, say, the 130.... would that absolutely preclude its use, or just mean that it wouldn't be optimal?


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Just means it won't be optimal, the sail will not be projected as much, may have a bit more belly than you'd like. But if it's a normal 'J' length pole it will probably work better on the 130 than a 150.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

It appears your "J" is 10' and your "I" is 29. You could probably use an 11 or 12' pole, and a spinnaker as large as 33' x 22' (twice the pole length).

The racing rules would limit you to a 10' pole with a spinnaker no greater in size than 29.14' luff x 18' foot.

The "J" on my boat is 11.8 and the "I" is 36.5'; I use a 12' pole and my bigger spinnaker (from an Islander 30) is 39' x 23' with no problems. (I also have a "chicken" chute from a Catalina 27 that measures 35' x 20' and flys well with a higher pole setting.)

Forespar makes an extendable whisker pole that goes from 10' to 18' that would be good for the larger jibs on your boat. You can almost always find one on eBay if you do not want to buy a new one.


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## matthewwhill (Dec 10, 2012)

And... how does one get out of a death roll?

I'm just thinking aloud.....

Drop jib sheet or spinnaker lines? thus spilling wind off the spin/headsail. Trim the main sheet to depower that sail?

and/or:


Gradually turn tiller toward the side the boom is on? thus spilling wind off the main.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

If you feel the boat starting to 'death roll' you want to immediately harden up a bit onto more or a broad reach. The problem with this, of course, esp as a beginner, is that usually means extra jibes, so in the end you don't want to be trying this in too much wind to start with.

Death rolls are most likely with a spinnaker up.. a number of reasons, the 'unbalanced' nature of your sailplan with the pole squared aft, shape of the boat, bow down trim, etc etc. Twinging the sheet down hard will help stabilize a spinnaker and reduce oscillations. Such rolls are somewhat unlikely running wing and wing, but could occur, I suppose, with enough breeze.

In any event if it's windy enough to worry about it, sail a higher angle. If jibes are problematic, do a 'chicken jibe- ( a 270-300 degree tack) It's noisy and scary too but more easily controlled. In real heavy wind it may be difficult to do on smaller boats with their reduced momentum. Be sure to 'sail' the boat through the turns, ie trim the sails as you harden up, and be ready to bear off and release quickly on completion of the 'tack'.

In really heavy downwind conditions we always went main-only and chicken jibed.. but others will have different preferences and sometime sea conditions can make this strategy a bit dodgy too....

NEVER release BOTH the spinnaker sheet and guys.. now you've really got a problem with a sail streaming from the hounds and no way to get it down.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Depending upon the region you race in, if doing what I will call non flying sails/FS or white sails as some area's call it, ie main and jib/genoa. Some area's only allow a spin pole. Here in Puget Sound where I am, I can use a whisker pole up to 80% of the jibs LP. 

Example, with a J of 10', a 155 genoa should have an LP around 15', you could use a whisker pole to upwards of 12' in length and still be legal rule wise. I have a 135, and my spin pole works pretty good. My 155 it helps to be about 2' longer to get its best power from a down wind perspective. 

So for some of us that race, we may have both poles on board. Look up the local race rules for how big a pole you can use with a spin or jib. Then choose accordingly. Locally if you were to use a 12' pole, you would get hit with a 3 sec per mile penalty if you will, ie your rating would go faster, BUT, if you can gain more than the 3 sec per mile hit you take.......it could be worth it! Ratings when racing needs to be figured out as to if you can make up the lower ratings. Some like fixed props, many say you do not need one, not worth it etc......reality is, you get a 9 sec credit, ie slower rating. BUT, the feathering folding prop will net you more than 9 secs of speed per mile, Try closer to a minute at times. So reality is, it is better to NOT take the fixed prop credit, and go with a folder/feathering prop. In my mind, even if a straight cruiser, your low wind speed gain would be worth it. 

All of these things I've mentioned need to be taken into account before saying which is better/worst!

marty


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## matthewwhill (Dec 10, 2012)

Another update.

Was out on Lake Washington today in 8 knot winds with the 150 genoa and main up. Very nice. Hove to easily. I noticed that I was pointed quite a ways (almost 90 degrees) off the wind and it did seem to help to trim the mainsheet a bit. Pretty much just stood still with a little leeward drift. Didn't oscillate very much at all.

Thanks to all contributors to this thread. Incredible source of specific and general information...

Anyone care to weigh in on what size anchor I need for this (3000 lb) sailboat? I have a 16.5 lb Bruce and a much smaller Danforth aka lunch hook. Also have 10+ feet of chain.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

16.5lb Bruce should be fine for that size boat. We used a 10kg/22lb one on our Catalina 25, and when I bought it the anchor was listed as one size too large for that boat. We also had a 13lb Danforth and used that as a second anchor. It was our only anchor for a while and worked one night in some rough conditions, but made me nervous.

If you are keeping your boat on Lake Washington then you can practice anchoring at the north end near Kenmore. There is no legal anchoring on Lake Union without an event permit or waiting for July 4th. On the sound there is nice anchoring just across from Shilshole at Port Madison.

My Pearson 28-2 (fin + spade rudder) hoves to best with mainsail only. I tried this after reading "Storm Tactics". I think it will do even better with main reefed. Something to try on your boat another time. It's also a good thing to try where there are waves (so north end of Lake WA near Kirkland or on the sound) to see if you are getting a nice calm slick that breaks up the waves. I'm new to my 28-2 and still getting used to how it handles in some conditions.


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## matthewwhill (Dec 10, 2012)

Thanks alex w, I also understand that Andrews Bay next to Seward park is a good anchorage - and you are allowed to stay overnight.. Any experience there? Ofcourse I would have to nearly circumnavigate Mercer Island to get there due to the low I90 bridge clearances.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

BS on the circumnavigating I90. IIRC you have at least 40' on either end of the floaters. So you should get thru! I used to get thru with ease in my step dads 21' boat. He gets thru with a boat that has 35' or so. I'm around 40 and get thru all but freemont from the sound to meydenbauer bay when I go their for there spring regatta in late March. 

A 16.5KG bruce would be MORE than ample for your rig. I use that and 15' f 1/4 chain on my 28 on deck 6500 lbs boat. I have a 9lb delta fast set for a race anchor. Then from what I know from others spending the night in Andrews bay, is easy to set in sand IIRC. I have not heard of any setting issues.

Ranger tug sends out there 21' versions with 5KG bruces, and the next larger size with 7.5's and the largest with 10KG bruce anchors, and 50' of chain for the 7.5/10KG setups, 25' of chain and 3/8" for the 21', and 9/16 3 str for the larger ones. 

Marty


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

I've been sailing my Bristol 31.1 in SF Bay for a couple of years now (early 80s design with larger jib / smaller main) and here's what I've learned (some thoughts in no particular order):

1) You do have to match the size of the jib to the conditions, but this is not such a problem as you might think, as mostly I end up using the 100% working jib. This really is your friend. From say 7 kts to 25 kts it works great on anything except downwind. 

The wind is so seasonal here, you could use the 83% for high summer, 100% for most of the rest of the time, and a 130-150% for winter days (except that I don't have one of the latter!). So it's not like you're changing jibs every weekend, more like each season.

2) Rather than use larger genoas, I just motor when the wind is light, or I have an asymmetrical spinnaker for downwind work.

3) It took a while to figure out the best approach for downwind when it is snotty. I have felt some tendency to round up when sailing on a broad reach with just the main, especially with a following sea. 

The trick here (and in general) is to keep the rig balanced. Going with main-only is totally the wrong approach, as the centre of effort of the main is acting so as to round the boat up, then you add the tendency of the following sea to push the stern around, and you have a squirly boat. So either keep the rig balanced for/aft, or if you need to depower more, go with the jib only.

Broad-reaching in a following sea on jib only, the boat is remarkably directionally stable. Every time the sea comes under the stern and tries to push the boat upwind, the jib powers up and pushes the bow back again. A total contrast to double-reefed main and half-furled jib which has the same power but much worse directional behaviour.

4) The boat sails surprisingly well on jib only, even upwind (at least up to close-reaching, won't go higher than that). Main-only is generally rubbish. Don't even bother trying, unless you consider 2 kts a good speed.

5) Hoving-to with full jib is generally only worth trying if you like spinning around in circles. It needs to be really heavily furled, to 50% or less. I haven't tried no jib, but I will make a point of doing so, soon.

Once you understand these idiosyncracies she really does sail well, and to weather, especially in a chop, will give many supposedly faster boats a surprise.


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## matthewwhill (Dec 10, 2012)

blt2ski said:


> BS on the circumnavigating I90. IIRC you have at least 40' on either end of the floaters. So you should get thru! I used to get thru with ease in my step dads 21' boat. He gets thru with a boat that has 35' or so. I'm around 40 and get thru all but freemont from the sound to meydenbauer bay when I go their for there spring regatta in late March.
> 
> A 16.5KG bruce would be MORE than ample for your rig. I use that and 15' f 1/4 chain on my 28 on deck 6500 lbs boat. I have a 9lb delta fast set for a race anchor. Then from what I know from others spending the night in Andrews bay, is easy to set in sand IIRC. I have not heard of any setting issues.
> 
> Marty


Thanks Marty, but I have a feeling you're thinking about the 520 bridge which does have 40+ft clearances, but I was just looking at the NOAA chart of the I90 spans and I think they're much much lower.

Also, forgive me but I meant to say that I have a 16.5 lb (not kilogram) Bruce. You're comments are helpful in either case.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

Official clearance on the I90 highrise is 29'. I know for sure that a 36.5' mast over water height doesn't fit. I don't know what the mast height is on a KR 24. 

I've never anchored overnight on Lake WA, we always go out to the sound for overnights. 

Where is your slip?


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Having been a few years since going thru......maybe i90 is lower than it used to be. 

16.5lb is the 7.5 kg bruce which is what I have. it was late last night, a couple of too many drinks at dinner.........

520 is 45' plus minus depending upon the lake height on the west high rise, was, should be 65' on the east. Altho I'm thinking/recalling that that side is closed down to ALL traffic at this time, so any one over 45 or so needs to use the drawbridge with 2-2.5 hrs notice, or call in to claim the 2-3 30 min times frames the dot will open the bridge. 

IIRC Rainer sailing club has one or two R24's in their fleet, so a call to them might be worth it to get some info on the boats. 

Marty

marty


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## matthewwhill (Dec 10, 2012)

Thanks again guys... So from what I've read, I think I may need something a bit heavier than a Bruce 16.5 lb anchor. Any more input on that subject would be excellent.

I am moored at Leschi. Which would be very convenient to Andrews Bay.... if I didn't have to go all the way around Mercer Island.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

A 16.5 lb bruce is ample for you boat! Especially if you add in 20 or so feet of 1/4" chain, and at least 3/8" 3 str if not 7/16". That will hold you thru a 30-40 knot breeze quite easy. I've used my 16.5 in 2' waves and 20-30 knot winds south of Edmonds doing RC duty with no dragging etc. Your boat is probably half the weight of mine. I have the 9lb fast set up front for the race anchor, and it holds fine too, so far up to 10-15 knot winds the one night I used it last summer. I'm around 7K lbs, 30 oa.

If you want to race some, IIRC CYCSeattle does some racing on wed or thur evenings in the summer. Do not remember which is 1d vs phrf or equal open class stuff. 

Marty


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## matthewwhill (Dec 10, 2012)

*Jib downhaul for single handing?*

Went out again today with the 150 headsail.

The boat is easy to single hand. The only tricky part I find is lowering the jib/genoa. When I'm using the big ones they don't seem to come all the way down on there own, even when I am pointing into the wind...

So I have to climb to the bow and pull it down myself. Not terrible but I can imagine this would be about the most tenuous thing I'd have to do when sailing in serious weather.

Any ideas? Jib downhaul?

The main isn't as bad , its just a short way to the mast.


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## PaulinVictoria (Aug 23, 2009)

A downhaul works nicely, I have a block near the bow and a couple of stanchion mounted fairleads. I just hook a loop over the last-but-one hank and then thread the downhaul line between the others to keep it tidy. When it's time to drop the sail, cleat the jib sheet to help keep things onboard, bow to wind, release the halyard and then pull the downhaul whilst feeding the halyard through. Brings it all onto the deck nice and tidy, all without leaving the cockpit.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Jib downhaul is certainly possible.. a small, light line run up through all the hanks to the head/halyard, and then led aft to the cockpit will do, however in all likelihood some of the sail will still end up over the lifelines and have to be retrieved. Heading DDW and sheeting in tightly in the lee of the mainsail and then dropping may maximize the amount of sail that drops on deck.

Heading upwind will work too, as Paul described, but there will be more load on the downhaul.


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## matthewwhill (Dec 10, 2012)

Awesome advice. I'll work on it.

Do you actually thread the downhaul through the hank hardware itself, or just weave it back and forth around the hands between the headstay and the luff of the sail?


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Above plus backwinding the jib a bit pointing upwind, while dropping will also/smetimes allow more to stay on deck. Also as mentioned, keep the sheet as tight as you can too. 

I have not down a downhaul, but the idea seems to be a good thing. Then again, so does a furler......but one heck of a lot more money! With 4 headsails setup for on deck attaching.....more than I want to spend to accomodate a furler. Then again, I would probably only setup one for a furler, the rest would be deck ht, full luff do to the amount of racing I do. The 9 sec furling credit is a lot like a fixed shaft prop, you lose more time than the credit gives vs a non furler/folding prop vs the other options.

Marty


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## matthewwhill (Dec 10, 2012)

I guess I could do it whilst hove to.....

let the main sheet out when I drop the jib halyard so I won't start spinning like crazy...

?


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## PaulinVictoria (Aug 23, 2009)

> Do you actually thread the downhaul through the hank hardware itself, or just weave it back and forth around the hands between the headstay and the luff of the sail?


I have a loop that the next to top hank goes through (so it doesn't pull down on the top hank, likely to jam up if you do that), and then it just weaves back and forth between the forestay and luff. My line doesn't fit through the hanks, and if it did, I think it would introduce too much friction anyway.


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## matthewwhill (Dec 10, 2012)

*Update*

Haven't rigged the jib downhaul yet, but went out today with 150 in light winds.
Close hauled, trimmed the jib sheet tight, head to wind, jib backwinded, released the halyard and the whole thing dropped right down on the fore-deck and along the side between the shrouds and the lifelines.

I swear it almost flaked itself!

Very sweet. I don't think it will be as easy during stronger winds though.

Next question: I like my autotiller, but its a bit cumbersome. As a simple short term alternative does anyone set up a couple bungee cords?


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## PaulinVictoria (Aug 23, 2009)

Correct, it won't be quite as easy, and you'll appreciate the downhaul 
I have a tiller tamer, Tiller-Tamer by Davis, does what it says on the tin.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Tiller tamer is not too bad. On the other hand, if your boat is like mine.....as soon as I getting going straight, I mover forward, or to the other side, the boat does not go straight any more, as it is not in balance from when I set the lines.....BUT, it does have a place.

Marty


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

*Re: Update*



matthewwhill said:


> Haven't rigged the jib downhaul yet, but went out today with 150 in light winds.
> Close hauled, trimmed the jib sheet tight, head to wind, jib backwinded, released the halyard and the whole thing dropped right down on the fore-deck and along the side between the shrouds and the lifelines.
> 
> I swear it almost flaked itself!
> ...


In strong winds the forces can tend to partially raise the sail which would fight the downhaul.. in that case try DDW, sheet in hard in the lee of the main, you'll find the sail readily drops because the wind wants to aid the drop, the backwind should allow most of the sail to land on deck.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

Davis Tiller Tamer works nicely. I often ran it with a little friction so that I could let go for a little bit without issue and without having to constantly adjust it.


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## matthewwhill (Dec 10, 2012)

*Why does it head to wind well?*

Another stupid question:

How can a boat with massive headsails and small mainsail perform well close hauled? Doesn't the big headsail cause lee helm? Why doesn't the smaller mainsail cause not enough weather helm?


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

The reason that boats with massive headsails do not develop massive lee helm is that typically a boat with that rig proportion was designed to balance with these sails in place. 

Although seemingly counter intuitive, the other part of this equation that is often overlooked is that the larger the leech of the sail, the more the center of effort is moving aft. So it is that putting up a larger overlapping genoa can add to weather helm rather than reduce it.


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