# Getting back to sailing. Stepping up to a keel boat.



## Whiskymac (Mar 11, 2016)

Hi, not new to sailing but will be new to "big" boat ownership if my plan comes to fruition.

I grew up in England sailing Mirror dinghies and Lightnings with my cousins while on our summer vacations, and that planted the lifelong love of sailing deep within me!

Then spent a couple of seasons crewing in races when my friend bought a Benetau first, didn't do too well but loved it and then a few years racing on various boats and windsurfing until I finally discovered the beauty of one design racing when I started crewing on J24's in Cowes (huge annual regatta on the Isle of Wight) and loved the more direct competition of it.

While traveling in Australia I spent 8 weeks sailing up the East coast to the barrier reef on a motor sailer. Awesome trip but a little frustrating because however much I tried tweaking the sails I couldn't get it over about 5 knots! But it did give me a little taste of the cruising way of life.

Fast forward a few years and I found myself living in NJ looking for a cheap way to get back into sailing and bought an old Hobie 16. Had an awesome (sometimes painful time learning to sail a cat) and then got back to one design when started racing them and enjoyed a fun few years of that.

Fast forward again I find myself living in Ohio and on my 3rd Hobie 16 but when my 1st child was born the boat was parked way down the yard for what I thought would be a couple of years. Another kid and 12 years later boat was finally pulled from the weeds but too far gone to make it worth the restoration &#55357;&#56874;
Anyway, now that I have bored you all to tears, what I wanted to say was that now that I am ready to jump back in (the lake:2 boat and am looking to purchase my first keelboat. Something in the 30/34' range. Currently looking at a couple of Catalina 30s. So, the reason I detailed all the above was really to show that I have no experience in captaining a keelboat and need all the help I can get. Don't know much about anchoring, docking, diesels, electronics, navigation and especially how to purchase a good older boat without ending up with a project boat (I understand that they are ALL ongoing projects at some level!). so will be looking for help.

I will be posting in the purchase forum soon looking for help and advice.

Thanks,

Jeremy


----------



## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Welcome.. you seem to be on a good path, your dinghy and one-design skills will translate well (though 'differently', perhaps) to whatever boat you buy.

Just understand that any cruiser you buy (eg Catalina 30 and the like) though good sailing boats will lack the responsiveness you're used to, they'll have a lot more momentum and greater mass, which takes some getting used to.

When you post in the purchase forum be sure to include info like the age of the boat you'll consider, your budget and the area you plan to sail/cruise in.


----------



## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

Add fixing broken systems to you list of new experiences. Everything, and I mean everything on a sailboat will break and require attention from plumbing, galley stove, heads, engines, standing rigging, etc. It's excellent that you've spent so much time sailing small boats, sailing big boats is easier. Here's some thoughts on what you might do:

1. Take a navigation/safety course from power squadron, CG Aux....will give you confidence in these areas.
2. Get on a lot of boats in the size/price you are thinking and figure out what matters to you (for selection). Performance, comfort at anchor, comfort at sea, ....each of these involve a tradeoff. 
3. Go slow on electronics, get some experience with a minimum set.
4. If we are talking used, buy a boat from a knowledgeable owner who's using the boat all the time, even if it's a little cosmetically challenged. More stuff will be working than a pretty boat that's sitting still all the time, and you'll be sailing sooner.

But by all means do it, and do it now! The only really bad decision is sitting on the shore watching everyone else sailing by.


----------



## Whiskymac (Mar 11, 2016)

Thanks for the welcome, that's a good point about responsiveness and momentum as while I do have a fair amount of wheel/tiller time on these boats but I really to not have any close quarter maneuvering experience. Hopefully I will be able to acquire some without too much damage to me or anyone else!
I plan to be sailing on Lake Erie (looking forward to the shallow lake idiosyncrasies, NOT!) mainly day sails with a few over nighters at first. Family of four ( kids 10 and 13). Looking for a boat from around 1988 onward hopefully under $30k


----------



## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

In your budget there are lots of good used boats. You won't have an issue finding one, but finding the one could be an issue. For what you are doing I would tend to stay with one of the big three, Hunter, Beneteau, or Catalina in good condition but in need of updating. Say old electronics, a little worn in the cushions, but with no major mechanical issues.


----------



## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Whiskymac said:


> Thanks for the welcome, that's a good point about responsiveness and momentum as while I do have a fair amount of wheel/tiller time on these boats but I really to not have any close quarter maneuvering experience. Hopefully I will be able to acquire some without too much damage to me or anyone else!


Unlike a J24 if you come in 'hot' it's not going to be an easy grab for the dock to stop the boat. You'll need to get used to using the reverse to slow down. It's hugely advantagous to find a boat that backs up with good control (which generally means a short cord fin and spade rudder configuration). All of our boats backed up so well that we generally went into a strange situation by backing in - unless you have a fixed or a feathering prop, most boats have better 'brakes' in fwd gear than reverse. Also learn to use 'propwalk' to your advantage.



Whiskymac said:


> I plan to be sailing on Lake Erie (looking forward to the shallow lake idiosyncrasies, NOT!) mainly day sails with a few over nighters at first. Family of four ( kids 10 and 13). Looking for a boat from around 1988 onward hopefully under $30k


As Stumble said, not a bad target area.. plenty available. The Catalina 30 is probably the roomiest 30 footer of that era, along with being a very stiff boat (helps with beginner's confidence, esp if anxious about heeling - talking about your family here) The only knock on it compared to some others (IMO) is the low overhead in the central portion of the aft berth - under the cockpit sole. Fine for kids, though.. not so much for any claustrophobes.

Have you discovered Yachtworld? it's a great site for windowshopping, plenty of photos and range of boats with a definable search function.

Here's an example:

1988 (Sail) Cruiser Boats For Sale


----------



## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

double post... So I'll add to what I said above

You seem to be in a good state of mind with realistic goals and a good budget for what you want to do. I would just suggest a few things...

1) stay at the larger end of your range. Squeezing a couple and two kids into a 30' boat is certainly possible, but a little more length will make it far more comfortable as they get older. Delaying the onset of 'two foot itus'. 

2) at this age range don't get too locked into a 'no older than' mindset. Once you get older than about 15 years condition not age is everything. A well maintained 30 year old boat is far better than a poorly maintained 20 year old boat. 

3) I would recommend sticking with a boat from a major manufacturer. Catalina, C&C, Beneteau, Hunter, etc... More boat for the money for lake sailing (even the Great Lakes).


----------



## newt (Mar 15, 2008)

My advice is just opposite of what is above (sorry Stumble). Different strokes and all that. I would get a old J-boat. You can pick up a 24 for a song, and it is what you are used to. I had a Catalina 27- one of the 1970's versions (!!) and I took my family and mother in law out on Utah lake all the time. Even when things got nasty. I would stick with a boat you could trailer sail for a while, so you can twik it at home ( ie modifiy, update)
That way you will learn all your "boat skills" (plumbing, electrical, fiberglass, rigging repair, sail repair) on your off time and not at the dock where you should be sailing. The best one for a family of four that I owned was a Compac 23. I know, you are cosy at night, but it did everything a big boat would do, and upkeep was easy-peasy. I had it in 60 knot winds, and if you got the sail down, it handled itself well. 
Just some thoughts, IMHO The photo was taken from my Compac on the Great Salt Lake (40 miles wide, 120 long)


----------



## Stu Jackson (Jul 28, 2001)

newt's advice is great for starters, if you choose to go that route. Many of us have BTDT by trailer sailing and moving on up. If, after your prior experiences, you choose to go the keel boat route, then I believe it is incredibly important to find a boat with an active owners association. It will save you a great deal of $$ and effort. It will avoid you having to reinvent the wheel. Here is a great resource which applies to a Catalina 30 as well since the boats share almost identical systems (the C30s have a series of different websites, ours has only this one - everything is in one place).

Catalina 34 - c34.org

Whatever you do, don't buy a project boat. While initial cost is low, you'll spend less time sailing, a LOT less.

Good luck.


----------



## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Hmmm.. it'll take an adventurous family to cruise with two near-teen kids on a J24... just sayin....

I think the OP has already made the case that he's 'been there done that' with the small J, and ready to move up to something bigger. However, to extend your line of thinking a bit, Newt, perhaps a J30 should be on his 'watch list'... Space and a bit more performance. But I do agree with Stu and Stumble, that for cruisability and support Catalina is pretty hard to beat in this arena...


----------



## Whiskymac (Mar 11, 2016)

Lots of good advice, keep it coming. 

The reason I said I was looking for post 1988 boats is that I have been concentrating my searches on the C30 largely due to the phenomenal online support and owners group. The production process changed in '88 to eliminate wood from the mast step support and the keel stub so I was trying to eliminate 2 potential problems from the list of issues that might effect a near 30 year old boat. 

I do have a little time docking stink boats (don't hate me for that) so have experienced propwalk, windage and cross currents a little, so that may help. 

I don't think I'm willing to look at anything smaller than 30, even the C30 felt small. I would really like a C34 but when I combine the significantly higher costs involved with increased difficulty for a keelboat rookie captain I have concentrating my efforts on the 30.

I did however look at an O'Day 35 (I know, a bit of a contradiction to my last statement) which I really liked but due to my concern about the possibility of some wet decks I have put on hold. (the decks feel very solid but there are some good cracks around some pulpit bases. Not sure I want to pay a surveyor to confirm my suspicions. ) if there is anyone in the Cleveland area who would be willing to take a quick look at the boat that would be a huge help. I really just want to know if it's worth taking the next step (surveyor)
Would you consider O'Day a major manufacturer? (albeit a defunct one).

I have been all over yachtworld,sailboatlistings,Craigslist, local broker website for months.
Hadn't really considered th J30, I thought it was more a racer, I will check it out.


----------



## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

If a Catalina 34 is in the budget for you, I wouldn't let the extra size (over the C 30) scare you off. The differences between those two will pale compared to either of them vis-a-vis a J24. The advantage here would be more space right away, and the (perhaps slightly) reduced risk of '2-footitis' within a year or two. Great layout (though IMO the only slightly larger C36 has a much better galley), excellent cockpit. If the moorage and other associated costs with a somewhat bigger boat is manageable, I think you'd be fine with one of these.

The J30 can actually be a decent family cruiser with the added performance 'bonus'.. but in many ways smaller. The attraction for you would probably be 'brand loyalty' and the racier feel.. btw there were two models, one of which has a more comfortable cruising cockpit layout.

ODay, Cal, Ranger, Sabre, C&C, CS, Hunter, and the various Euro brands for the '80s heyday of production sailboats will all fit your bill. The trick is finding one that's been well maintained, with minimal typical issues, in your area and at your price point.

btw.. the majority of former 'major' builders are now 'defunct'. That's part of the appeal of Catalina, although in truth you more often need parts/repairs for the third party items in a boat like engines, winches, fridges, etc.. add-ons like that so in that respect it matters little if the builder is still in business.


----------



## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

I have to think Newt missed the part about weekending and longer cruising (if not please correct me). I can't imagine cruising a J-24 with a family. For day sailing sure it's fine, but for any type of cruising, no. 

I really wouldn't worry about the length issue. The difference in a 30 and 35' boat are pretty minimal. The docking loads may be a touch higher, but honestly not enough to worry about. Things change after you break 40-42' and the boats get to large to push off the dock, but in this size range it just isn't a big issue. 

As for the J-30... No. It's a great boat, but it is canvassed all wrong for a cruiser. It carries a 163 Jib which is just massive, and difficult to tack. If you switch to a smaller headsail (say a 135) then the boat lacks the drive until the wind really starts to howl. I love them for racing, but for cruising it really isn't set up for it. 

I wouldn't exclude J boats, but most of them are going to be retired racers, be stripped down below, and need a lot of work to make habitable. Add in the prices tend to stay high because of their desirability for racing and it's a poor fit I think. 

As for an O'day. We did almost exactly what ou are doing on an O'day 39 when I was a kid (five of us not four) and it was fantastic. Years later I raced the snot out of one in North Carolina and loved it still. When we bought our current Beneteau we seriously looked at another O'day 39 and almost bought it, but couldn't make the numbers work (too much heavy weather cruising gear for our day sailer needs). So ya I am a fan of the brand. 

If the O'Day you are looking at has a soggy deck, then make an offer contingent on inspection and the seller repairing the core. Or keep looking, no need to get tied down to one example.


----------



## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

seems like you are narrowing it down. the c-34 is a great boat. I don't know how the slips and mooring are done on your Lake. but in some locations as the west coast slips are at a premium and length matters. we have a 32' boat in a 30 foot slip and we are allowed up to 33 ' . to own a 34 for us the coast of the slip would be 50% higher and we would have bought a bigger boat if the availability was better. the wait time here can be up to five years for boats over 33'. we waited about a year for our 30' slip. the cost of maintaining a 34 will be a bit higher than a 30 but not much if you start out with a well maintained boat. 
Don't forget to look at the condition of the sails. There are many small things that can be repaired for little cost but a new set of sails for a 34 can be 8 to 12k.


----------



## Whiskymac (Mar 11, 2016)

Some great answers but I still have questions.

The boat I am currently looking at is for sale by owner with no broker involved. I am conflicted as to whether this is an advantage or not. On one hand I like the possibility of a lower price and I like the aspect of being able to pick the brain of the PO and get an idea of how she was maintained and used. The downside is that i am new to this business and have no one to hold my hand through the purchase process, bounce questions off and most importantly help me through the purchase and paperwork process. I will therefore have to rely on the help of my new friends on the forum, so thanks and here we go:

1. Given that the boat is about 2 hours drive away, how do I proceed? The boat is listed at 27k, I have already told the owner that this is more than I am willing to pay and they indicated that they are not firm on the price and open to offers. Should I try to agree a base price prior to viewing the boat or should I say nothing until I have made an inspection?

2. When/if I do make an offer, should I factor in my perceived deficiencies (sails,rigging,etc) or would I make an offer and then wait for the survey results to renegotiate the price? Is there some kind of standard contract I can use and want kind of special terms or conditions might I want to consider adding?

3. Should I progress past 1 &2 and have an offer accepted, do I now pay earnest (?) money pending the sea trial? How much? Does this go into escrow?

4. If the sea trial and any price renegotiation successful, what is the proces to complete the sail? i.e. What paperwork is necessary and how do I determine whether there are any liens against the boat?

Thanks in advance.

Jeremy.


----------



## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Don't make any offer until you've seen the boat. By all means factor in your perceived shortcomings.

Move to survey and after that possible renegotiations if the surveyor finds things you didn't know or notice. Sea trial is last and can be a 'bail out' if you get a bad vibe.

I imagine there are escrow services.. This is the one thing that a broker would provide. Good faith money is usually 10% or so.


----------



## newt (Mar 15, 2008)

Stumble said:


> I have to think Newt missed the part about weekending and longer cruising (if not please correct me). I can't imagine cruising a J-24 with a family. For day sailing sure it's fine, but for any type of cruising, no.


I did miss that, sorry. I was thinking daysailing/even a weekend on the float. I am properly admonished. As to making an offer- Even if it is just what you want the way you want- please make any offer contingent on a survey... and do not buy a boat without one. (unless you know more about boats than the surveyor)

BTW- I have spent 7 days aboard cruising with 10 people on a Bendy 34. And yes we are all still friends. 3 families that used to charter together. We moved up to a IP 40 after that. Now I like my space- Our Valiant 40 is just big enough for my wife and me and a few grandkids.:sailing-pilgrims:


----------



## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

Faster's advice is right on.

On a private deal, I've had lawyers and/or documentation service companies handle escrow. Both worked fine, fees were small. I do like knowing the previous owner. If the previous owner is meticulous and everything is kept working even if it's not cosmetically good, that a good sign. If the previous owner is regularly using the boat, that's a good sign. 

Keep in mind the buyer is setting his price given known shortcomings. For example, the sails are worn, the gel coat is scratched, the engine has X hours on it.... On the other hand, everything on the equipment list should be there and should be functional, unless specifically called out by the buyer. So if for example a sail that's listed is torn and unrepairable, that should result in some give. Another example would be if the surveyor found a wet spot in the deck that was delaminating. There is no way you make an offer without seeing the boat, and in your case you get the additional assurance of evaluating the seller. I don't buy boats from people I don't trust, don't take good care of their boats, don't use their boats, etc....but that's just me, IMHO it's a good policy.

The sea trial is not about do you like the way the boat sails, it's about a brief check of systems that cannot be checked at the dock or on hard. It is far from a strong assurance. Yea, the engine runs, the rig didn't fall down, the sails went up and worked in the conditions of that particular day. I've never had a deal go bad at sea trial, but have seen many deals fall apart on survey when the surveyor found bad structural problems with the boat on hard.

Good luck!


----------

