# Traveler positions - pros and cons



## dsullyec1 (Sep 26, 2012)

Can someone give us feedback on the pros and cons of the placement of the traveler? We've seen it inside the cockpit, and on the cabin roofs. We tend to think it's burdensome in the cockpit as it tends to get in the way of the companionway, but, perhaps it's a better placement for it, and we just don't understand. We're looking at buying a boat (our first) and have very little experience with what's most convenient/expedient/efficient.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

What traveler position works for you is going to depend on YOUR take on what's most convenient/expedient/efficient..

Stern mounted travelers are awkward esp on tiller steered boats as it's generally a 'reach behind' to make an adjustment unless the business end(s) is/are led forward to a more convenient reach. On wheel steered boats a stern traveler often means the sheet run interferes with a person standing and steering..

Moving the traveler forward to just ahead of the wheel or helmsman's position means the person steering has a reasonable chance of trimming and driving at the same time. Now with a tiller steered boat it's a natural stance to have one hand on the tiller and the other on the mainsheet without having to 'twist' and reach around. With a wheel there's at least a chance the helmsman can trim the main, and adjusting the traveler is usually not a problem.

On many boats this location, however, creates a bit of a shin-basher as the traveler often spans the open cockpit across the seats.

Moving the traveller to the bridge deck or just at the companionway is similarly handy, though less so for a wheel steered boat. The downside is possible interference with access through the companionway, the traveler track can interfere with comfortable lounging against the aft end of the cabin, and it can limit the coverage of a dodger.

Moving it to the coachroof ahead of the companionway gets it out of the way completely, allowing a dodger and enclosure if that's what you want. However as the mainsheet moves forward it loses mechanical advantage, requiring stronger tackle and/or winches to enable proper sheeting forces. This generally completely removes access to the helmsman without extraordinary measures running the sheet aft again (the so called German system) It also places higher loads on the boom section, esp in accidental jibes.

Most boats, esp cruisers sold today favour the coachroof system.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

I have the full on modern with a windward sheeting car (modern and moves automatically ) on tacks on the J24










And I have the fully old fashion twin mainsheets COMPLEATLY out of the way on the Cal 29

Once you go back in time and remember how to tweak it it works fine and does NOT clutter up the cockpit


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Faster covered it pretty well. I'd just add that if the traveller is not easily accessible, it doesn't generally get used much. When I had it right at hand in front of the tiller on my Quarter Tonner I'd routinely adjust it as little as 1/2 inch. *However*, I sold that boat 8 years ago and my shins still haven't fully healed. 

I've noticed on Hunters, with it out of sight on the top of the roll bar, they usually sit on center permanently.


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## groggy (Aug 18, 2011)

SloopJonB said:


> Faster covered it pretty well. I'd just add that if the traveller is not easily accessible, it doesn't generally get used much. When I had it right at hand in front of the tiller on my Quarter Tonner I'd routinely adjust it as little as 1/2 inch. *However*, I sold that boat 8 years ago and my shins still haven't fully healed.
> 
> I've noticed on Hunters, with it out of sight on the top of the roll bar, they usually sit on center permanently.


The convenience of the arch mounted traveller is one of the things i like about the Hunters. Granted, it is offset by the coachroof mounted mainsheet and wheel steering on the Hunters I have sailed.

The shin-bashing location in front of a tiller with the mainsheet right there seems like the best location, but i havent had a chance to try a boat arranged like that. I have a serious love of sitting on the high side using a tiller extension, so this arrangement appeals to me even untried.


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## PaulinVictoria (Aug 23, 2009)

I've got a shin basher, works fantastically and you do get used to it being there eventually. I think I am down to just one massive bruise per season now.


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## addict (Apr 5, 2010)

Mine would be a shin basher if I didn't have reversed u cockpit seating.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Faster had covered it well. 

It has to do with the type of sailing or cruising you do. If you want to maximize performance and the pleasure to sail, then it is a traveler near the wheel. If you want to maximize comfort on the cockpit while sailing then you want one over the cabin.

Regarding modern boats all mass production cruisers (Oceanis, Hanse, Jeanneau, Dufour, Bavaria, Hunter) have the traveler over the cabin (or over an arch) and sometimes they have no traveler at all.

All performance mass production cruisers have the traveler on the cockpit near the wheel (First, Dufour performance, Elan, Dehler, Salona, Grand Soleil).

It had to do mostly with what type of cruiser you are, the one that loves cruising and is all the time having fun taking the most of what your boat can do (performance cruiser) or the type to whom the sailboat is more of a mean to do cruising and have the boat most of the time on autopilot while seating on the cockpit, reading or having a nice conversation.

Regards

Paulo


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## Stu Jackson (Jul 28, 2001)

We have the traveler located on the coachroof. However, the claims that it does not get used are just that, claims. We use ours, actively, for proper sail shape and trim. The key for us was to get good hardware and properly sized tackle for the traveler car adjustments. Just because it's on the coachroof doesn't mean it doesn't get used. We have a 6:1 Garhauer system that replaced the older 4:1 Garhauer system, like night and day.


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## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

Faster said:


> Moving the traveller to the bridge deck or just at the companionway is similarly handy, though less so for a wheel steered boat. The downside is possible interference with access through the companionway, the traveler track can interfere with comfortable lounging against the aft end of the cabin, and it can limit the coverage of a dodger.


This is where mine is. I couldn't find a great picture, but this gives the idea:










As you can see, the main sheet does not really affect access to the companionway, and when not in use, we keep it all the way to the port side which really limits its interference with moving about. The traveler itself is set into the seat so that the top of it is flush with the seat--no sitting on a bulky traveler. This next picture shows part of the traveler at the bottom left hand corner of the photo.










I can easily operate the main sheet from behind the wheel. With a smallish cockpit, I really like this setup. It can be a shuffle in the cockpit anyway with a couple of guests aboard, so having a shin banger across the cockpit would not be ideal.


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

On the Irwin 38 Mkii Center cockpit it's handy, out of the cockpit, and out of minds eye being behind the helm. 
Perfect for a cruiser - set it for heel and weather helm balance and forget it.


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

Crappy pic, not my boat but same model. 








I absolutely love it for sailing. For anchoring out or entertaining, not so much. But its perfect for trimming.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

I have the one just in front/back of the cabin, but in front of the tiller, as faster noted, I can steer and adjust the main from one spot, along with it is not in the way when parked at the docked.


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

Faster states correctly the functional positions of the traveller; but, there is another equally important consideration that is inversely proportional to the traveller's position - leverage and mechanical advantage.

Archemedian principle of levers.
A traveller at the near the end of the boom will provide the greatest leverage /mechanical advantage for boom control and will require less 'rope' and number of mainsheet blocks ... with the comparative result of less rope to trip over and become tangled and smaller diameter 'rope' needed. End boom sheeting also requires less force to adjust the mainsheet/traveller and usually can be accomplished solely by hand and without a winch. 

In contrast, a coach roof mounted traveller requires heavier/stronger 'rope' and blocks, has (proportionately) much less mechanical advantage and usually requires a winch to operate the mainsheet ... and with more resultant 'rope clutter' in the cockpit to tangle and trip over. 

.... and splitting the proportional difference between the two positions when the traveller is mounted between these two extremes. 

When single handing, mid boom sheeting usually requires the helmsman to leave the wheel (sometimes to leave the tiller if so configured) and walk forward to the coachroof to affect mainsheet and traveller adjustment. End boom sheeting is relatively 'more convenient' to the helmsman, especially if when single handing - a much safer proposition when the wind and wave conditions are 'gnarly'. Mid boom sheeting with a coach roof mounted traveller usually requires two people to operate if you want 'instant' control. 

It seems that on the 'high end' boats that are set up for performance sailing or passagemaking (in far contrast to 'dockside entertaining') that the trend is returning to end boom sheeting with the traveller and mainsheet within easy reach of both the helmsman AND the crew.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Another advantage of a cockpit traveler is that it can be a lot bigger than the ones over the cabin or over an arch where there are some really slow.

Bigger means more control over the main.

That's the one in my boat:










Regards

Paulo


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## mikehoyt (Nov 27, 2000)

Paulo

Love the look of your cockpit!

One thing no one has pointed out about the cockpit located travellers like J24 or Paulo's. It seperates the helm area from the rest of the cockpit and keeps passengers out of the helmsman's way. Not such a big deal with a wheel as it also blocks the way but with a tiller it is almost essential. New sailors tend to gravitate to the spots that interfere with tiller and the traveller across the cockpit directs them to a better position

Also - I have had cockpit travellers just ahead of helm for over 12 years. I do not bang my shins on them and no one else seems to either.


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## kjretlaw (Jun 22, 2010)

Went from having it in the front of the cockpit on the Helms 27 to the arch on the Hunter. I find that I use the traveller more now because it's accessable and easilly managed.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Not the greatest view but here you can see our traveler is on a (rather long) bridge deck (mainsheet is blue tackle about 2 feet aft of the companionway).. means it's reachable from the helm. It's on a recessed track so lounging on the bridgedeck is not an issue.










Here's our previous boat.. similar in ways to Paulo's setup...


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Since we are talking advantages, Mine as one should be able to tell to a degree, I have a 4-1 macro, with a 4-1 micro or 16-1 total. Very nice to have in mid to upper 20 knot winds like last saturday. The 4-1 I could not sheet in the main, where as using the 16-1, I could. Also easier on the person handling said main sheet when pulling in then letting out during races or cruises where the wind is shifty. 

Also with my boat, not sure how good the picture is, but my sheeves on the boom are 8 and 9' back on a 10' boom. So for the most part, as far back as one can get, so it is easier to handle etc.

At the end of the day, not sure there is a right or wrong, just a preference. I would not want an arch like hunter or beneteau use, I would prefer the traveler in the actual cockpit! I do understand the reason for them using an arch. Gets the sheet farther back, for better control, yet keeps the traveler out of the cockpit!

marty


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

I sailed my first boat to New Zealand with a traveller, then threw it overboard, and haven't used one since. Too noisy in calms. Padeyes are all you need on a cruising boat. I have plenty of time to vang my main down to the rail, hand rails, the chainplates etc.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

Brent Swain said:


> I sailed my first boat to New Zealand with a traveller, then threw it overboard, and haven't used one since. Too noisy in calms. Padeyes are all you need on a cruising boat. I have plenty of time to vang my main down to the rail, hand rails, the chainplates etc.


To noisy? Sounds like you had a pretty crappy traveler. If you cleat both sides the car doesn't move at all, so what could be noisy? I can't imagine giving up such a useful tool for such a minor complaint!

To each his own I guess!


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Shock,

Remember person you are saying is goofy, does not like battens on his main either! So when one has opposite opins as you, better to not worry about there opins! 

I do agree, having a traveler is better than a single point! Even the double side to side sheeting system looks better than a single eye bolt or equal in the middle. remembering my days racing lasers in triple digit hull numbers or the 8' pram I had as a teen on Lk Washington!

Marty


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

I have generally preferred the cabin-top location for the traveler just for the benefit of opening up the already small cockpit to better carry people. Interestingly, the story below highlights another benefit of getting the mainsheet out of the cockpit - safety.

Sail-World.com : British sail-trainers on trial over injury/dramatic rescue of novices

From the article:
"A 23 year old crew member on board the commercially operated sailing yacht Liquid Vortex was seriously injured when the vessel gybed. The gybe occurred when the yacht was running downwind in the English Channel.

The crew member was at the helm when she was knocked to the deck by the mainsheet. She sustained head
and spinal injuries and was evacuated by helicopter to Plymouth, England where she was hospitalised for 2 months."

Ugly.


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## ahab211 (Jan 6, 2008)

I have a floor mounted main sheet fastener and find it adequate age easy to maneuver around on my C&C .24 sailboat. Don't like the idea of stepping over a traveller, especially in front of the cabin, like on other C.&C 24's I've seen. I, also have a boom vang mounted to the bottom of the mast to help flatten the main.


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## Mjfossler (Jun 2, 2012)

Stu Jackson said:


> We have the traveler located on the coachroof. However, the claims that it does not get used are just that, claims. We use ours, actively, for proper sail shape and trim. The key for us was to get good hardware and properly sized tackle for the traveler car adjustments. Just because it's on the coachroof doesn't mean it doesn't get used. We have a 6:1 Garhauer system that replaced the older 4:1 Garhauer system, like night and day.


Completely agree, mine is on the roof and I use it all the time. In fact, I don't know how people sail without using the traveler - makes a huge difference in the performance of your boat.


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## dsullyec1 (Sep 26, 2012)

Some really good feedback here...thanks everyone. I really like the way yours is laid out, Caberg...and the pictures really helped us to understand how it's inlaid into your seat. That's a great idea and it would be nice to find a boat that has that feature. 

We are in our 60's and really don't plan on racing, Faster, ...although we both still have "speed" in our blood. (I think me, moreso than my husband). We are more interested in cruising to discover places, meet new people, and "slow down" a little in our lives. So, performance isn't a strong issue with us. Either the kind of traveler Caberg has or a coachroof placement would work for us, I'm thinking. I appreciate everyone's feedback and have learned quite a lot. Thanks!!!

Diane and Paul


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## Stu Jackson (Jul 28, 2001)

dsullyec1 said:


> So, performance isn't a strong issue with us.
> Diane and Paul


It's not really performance at all.

There are two kinds of sailors:

Those that believe that there is no difference in sail trim whether you race or not, and those that simply don't.

Sail trim is sail trim, and a traveler is required to adjust the angle of attack of the mainsail.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Stu Jackson said:


> It's not really performance at all.
> 
> There are two kinds of sailors:
> 
> ...


That is relative. I mean, traveler is important for trim, the sails as also it is an adjustable back stay and a fractional rig. All performance boats have them but to many cruisers a fraction of a knot is irrelevant and their pleasure is more cruising than sailing, sailing is just a mean to do it.

Unfortunately for the ones that like sailing the market and the way the boats are rigged shows that most of the cruisers belong to the that category otherwise brands like Hanse, Bavaria, Benetau would have travelers on their new boats.

I agree with you, it has nothing to do with racing but with sailing pleasure and to do it the best you can while learning always to do it better.

Regards

Paulo


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

Stu Jackson said:


> It's not really performance at all.
> 
> There are two kinds of sailors:
> 
> ...


Surely a fixed mainsheet and a vang together can produce precisely the same sail control as a traveler. The adjustment just becomes more complicated, that's all.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

MarkSF said:


> Surely a fixed mainsheet and a vang together can produce precisely the same sail control as a traveler. The adjustment just becomes more complicated, that's all.


... and you need an extremely powerful vang, and seriously strong gooseneck fittings and vang fittings for the loads so induced. Few cruising boats will be so equipped and it's much easier to ease a traveller down if it's accessible to the crew.


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## Stu Jackson (Jul 28, 2001)

MarkSF said:


> Surely a fixed mainsheet and a vang together can produce precisely the same sail control as a traveler. The adjustment just becomes more complicated, that's all.


Simply impossible. The vang drops the boom and tightens the leech. It has nothing to do with angle of attack. If you loosen the mainsheet going upwind, you change the shape of the sail. If you adjust the traveler when going upwind, you simply change the angle of attack.

You may be interested in this: Sail Trim Chart and Sail Trim Guide


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

That's true but the Garhauer I have was not expensive, is strongly built, comes with very strong fittings, has plenty of mechanical reduction (not sure exact number, maybe 10:1), AND it holds the boom up! 

So this setup has the advantages that :

The mainsheet is right next to the helm, on a barney post, so it's super easy to ease in a blow. (and controlled gybes are easy)

Boom end sheeting places less load on the boom & less load on the sheet, and blocks can be smaller.

The cabin top is uncluttered. (and vs. a cockpit traveler the cockpit is uncluttered)

With the vang sheet brought back to the cockpit both adjustments are easy.

No topping lift to mess about with.


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

Stu Jackson said:


> Simply impossible. The vang drops the boom and tightens the leech. It has nothing to do with angle of attack. If you loosen the mainsheet going upwind, you change the shape of the sail. If you adjust the traveler when going upwind, you simply change the angle of attack.
> 
> You may be interested in this: Sail Trim Chart and Sail Trim Guide


Both the vang and the mainsheet act on a (almost) rigid boom. Think of the situation where the traveler is out and the boom is over the end of the traveler. With a fixed mainsheet, the sheet is no longer vertical with reference to the boom, and the boom can rise a little. The vang can then be adjusted to apply the "missing" vertical force on the boom.

If the vector sum of forces is the same, how can the result be different?

What I am saying is that easing the mainsheet and trimming the vang together have the same effect as easing the traveler.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

Stu Jackson said:


> Simply impossible. The vang drops the boom and tightens the leech. It has nothing to do with angle of attack. If you loosen the mainsheet going upwind, you change the shape of the sail. If you adjust the traveler when going upwind, you simply change the angle of attack.
> 
> You may be interested in this: Sail Trim Chart and Sail Trim Guide


Im not sure I would go so far as to say impossible, but it is certainly less than ideal! In theory you could pull the sheet on hard, tighten the vang, then ease the sheet and the vang should maintain leech tension, but think about the loads you are putting on that vang! The vang attachment is much closer to the mast than any mainsheet AND it is pulling at an angle to the mast base, not straight down as a mainsheet does. You would need a VERY powerful vang to make any upwind adjustments in breeze. My boat has a hydraulic vang, and there is a slight bend in the boom where it attaches. If it was used as the main source of leech tension upwind it could easily snap the boom!

The vang is not an upwind tool!


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

Are a vang and boom end sheeting together really placing more load on the boom than a mid-boom traveller?

Imagine going upwind with the sheet really tight. Now tighten the vang. The vertical load on the boom is now SHARED between two points instead of one, and the bending moment on the boom just got less.


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## Bowedtoothdoc (Mar 10, 2010)

Hunter may have done allot of things poorly over the years, but in my opinion the arch mounted traveler was a great idea. Keeping the purchase point at the rear of the boom and keeping a sweeping boom above head level. My prior boat had a cabin top mounted traveler which was usable while single handing, but the Hunter is more convenient and I use it every time I go out. In gusty conditions I can be at the helm with one hand on the wheel and the other on the traveler sheet.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

It seems to me that once you tighten the vang and ease the sheet you are transfering all of the vertical load to the vang attachment point a few feet from the mast. The only load left on the sheet is the horizontal load which is far less. That vertical load is then multiplied by the fact that the fulcrum is so much further forward. You would essentially be giving up most of the advantage gained by the end boom sheeting.

A typical example comes to mind; it a race the main trimmer is late in pulling the traveller up after a tack, the sheet is still on, but the boom is down to low. It is no big deal for the helmsman standing in the cockpit grab the end of the boom and push it to weather until the slack is taken out of the traveller. That is because the bulk of the load is vertical. That is also why many travellers only have 2:1 or 4:1 purchase.

(Keep in mind i am referencing a 30ft masthead boat! I realizebigger boats have higher loads, but the proportins are similar!)


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## Stu Jackson (Jul 28, 2001)

SchockT said:


> The vang is not an upwind tool!


I beg to disagree completely. It certainly is. Sail upwind. Set the mainsheet for the conditions. If the wind is light, the mainsheet alone is simply not enough to flatten the sail, so you use the vang. As the wind increases, release the vang to give the sail more body for medium winds. As the wind increases even more, use the vang to flatten the sail in high winds. This is basic sail trim.

Off the wind, once the traveler is down all the way and the boom is out, the vang is used to flatten the sail when going from a beam reach down to broach or ddw.


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## msmith10 (Feb 28, 2009)

I'm with Schock. The vang isn't necessary for upwind use unless your traveler is too short. The worst travelers are the ones directly in front of the wheel that span between the cockpit seats, not full width but only between the seats- maybe 1-1/2 feet long. Too short for anything useful.
Back to the original post, my favorite traveler location is just ahead of the wheel where I can get at it at any time without leaving the helm, but that's a personal preference. All locations have their pros and cons.
I much prefer the traveler directly in front of the wheel than blocking the companionway.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

Stu Jackson said:


> I beg to disagree completely. It certainly is. Sail upwind. Set the mainsheet for the conditions. If the wind is light, the mainsheet alone is simply not enough to flatten the sail, so you use the vang. As the wind increases, release the vang to give the sail more body for medium winds. As the wind increases even more, use the vang to flatten the sail in high winds. This is basic sail trim.
> 
> Off the wind, once the traveler is down all the way and the boom is out, the vang is used to flatten the sail when going from a beam reach down to broach or ddw.


In light wind the only useful vang is one that can lift the boom when eased allowing better twist control. Other than that it is completely irrelevant if you have a traveler. In breeze the mainsheet will control the twist, and the traveler will control the angle of attack. The mainsheet has better mechanical advantage due to it's aft position, AND it typically has far better purchase system as well. Once again the vang is rendered irrelevant due to the superior power of the sheet. The vang only comes into play when you are eased off beyond the traveller and still want to maintain leech tension.
As for using the vang as a flatenning tool in light wind? The only thing that would acomplish would be to over tension the leech and hook it to weather! Outhaul, mast bend and cunningham are flatenning tools, not sheet and vang! But now we are drifting even further off topic!

On the original topic, my boat came from the factory with a cabin top traveler, but the PO moved it into the cockpit for racing. The cockpit is a better place for it from a sailing standpoint, but I moved it back to the cabintop to make the cockpit clear and safe for my toddler son. Fortunately i can still control the traveller and sheet from the helm position because I have a tiller, but it is definitely more awkward.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

Bowedtoothdoc said:


> Hunter may have done allot of things poorly over the years, but in my opinion the arch mounted traveler was a great idea. Keeping the purchase point at the rear of the boom and keeping a sweeping boom above head level.....


Just be sure to always fully trim the mainsheet before a gybe, if the mainsail gybes with an untrimmed mainsheet, loops of the sheet can sweep across the cockpit about head level... A careless or accidental gybe can do some real damage to a guest, a greater risk than the typical mid-cockpit traveler.


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