# Car to tow Laser and Trailer



## theuselessone (Oct 17, 2008)

Firstly, I apologize if this has already been discussed, but I didn't see anything too similar when I did a search. 

As the title says, I'd like to know what sort of car would be capable of towing a Laser dinghy on a trailer. 

The issue is, is that I currently drive a small car (1.5L Mazda Protege 5 speed manual) which the owner's manual says is not rated to tow anything. From reading other forums/web pages, I've gathered that towing with a small car is (obviously) not ideal, but can be done for short/medium distances (say within 2-3 hours), and that people in Europe tow dinghys with small(er) cars quite often (which aren't rated to tow anything in the US but have a tow rating in Europe). 

I have the option to upgrade to a larger car, but I would rather stick with my Protege. If I shouldn't tow with my Protege, what other cars would be more capable? It seems as though most of the other cars I've looked at (Subaru Impreza/Outback, Audi A4, Volkswagon Jetta, etc.) tend to either have relatively poor gas mileage (around 20 mpg) for daily use and/or high maintenance costs.

Thanks for time and help.


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## PaulfromNWOnt (Aug 20, 2010)

In my humble opinion, you could tow a Laser with a tricycle.

I don't know if you'd be able to find a hitch setup for your vehicle though. I have seen hitches on the back of Smart cars if that's any consolation.


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## kd3pc (Oct 19, 2006)

I think you will find that your protege has neither the suspension nor brakes to tow much of anything, and may not have a "frame" with which to attach a hitch.

That being said, people do tow, regardless of the manual, dealer, etc. I would expect a drop in mileage, as well as some wear to the driveline.

All the best


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

You could tow it for sure with the Mazda. A friend towed his with a Honda Civic.

There is a class 1 hitch available (didn't know what model year you have, so I put in 2000) here :

Class I Receiver Hitch 11043 [11043] - $141.14 : The Hitch Store

I fitted one of their hitches to my Jag XJ8 and it was solid as a rock.

The one thing I'd worry about in a small auto car is overheating the transmission, but yours is manual so no problem there.

The Laser with trailer probably weighs 400lb? Less than 2 large adults. Definitely well under the 20% of the car's weight.


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## theuselessone (Oct 17, 2008)

Thanks for all the quick replies. 

I hadn't considered the suspension yet, but I was hoping the 400lb trailer wouldn't weight it down too much like MarkSF said. 

For future reference, what other (small-ish) cars would be able to tow small dinghies and also don't cost a fortune to maintain and fuel?


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## Slayer (Jul 28, 2006)

I push my laser on its dolly two blocks down the street to the boat ramp. I also push it the 50 yards up the boat ramp and road leading to the ramp. I think any kind of car could be used.


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

theuselessone said:


> Thanks for all the quick replies.
> 
> I hadn't considered the suspension yet, but I was hoping the 400lb trailer wouldn't weight it down too much like MarkSF said.
> 
> For future reference, what other (small-ish) cars would be able to tow small dinghies and also don't cost a fortune to maintain and fuel?


Normal tongue weight is 10% of the trailer, so that would be 40lb. I think the suspension will cope with that. I assume you regularly put heavier things than that in your trunk.

Frank Dye towed his Wayfarer the length of the UK regularly with a Renault 4 with 50hp. So the answer is ANY car that you can get a hitch for will tow the boat.

Let's not start a discussion about which CARS are cheap to maintain and easy on fuel.


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## theuselessone (Oct 17, 2008)

MarkSF said:


> Let's not start a discussion about which CARS are cheap to maintain and easy on fuel.


My apologies, point taken. Thanks all for the help.


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

400lbs for boat and trailer? My capri 14.2 was maybe about 600lbs, so 400 seems high for a laser. I towed my capri with a 2005chevy malibu (max tow 1000#). So I think you'd be fine. Cheapest place to have rig it up for you is uhaul (out the door pricing installed for less than you can usually buy the hitch for).

I wouldn't load up the boat much... and take lots of stops to cool the engine. make sure your brakes are up to snuff. You'll be fine... Hell I saw a crazy guy with a car carrier towed behind a corolla (they are #1500 empty).

I got picture of the corolla if I can find it.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

I'd tow a laser with my now defunct 69 convertable bug, with a 60 hp Aircooled motor!

If you can get a hitch loae properly on what you have, a 100 lbs boat and trailer in the 100-150 range SHOULD have no issues towing the trailer to and from home, even across the state etc.

marty


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## Capt Psycho (Aug 5, 2011)

Depending on your trailer...You could tow it with a bike. I tow mine with my 67 Mustang. I'm not sure of the weight but I can pull the trailer and lazer by hand with minimum effort to hook it up to the Mustang. IMHO it all would depend on your hitch.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

My Phantom is 100 lb. The trailer alone is 300 lb! I pull it easily with a Honda Accord. I'm hoping to someday pull it with my Prius, but face a similar issue of it not being rated to tow (though are whole websites devoted to Priuses pulling trailers).

The issue with a car is not usually its power to pull. It's braking to stop, stability in hard turns, and flexing of the unibody under the dynamic stresses. Realize that your trailer will always want to go straight, so whenever you turn, there's a lot of sideways force applied to the very rear of the car at the hitch. Every time you go over a bump, the hitch (and whatever part of the car it's attached to) gets a sudden jolt.

For these reasons, a lot has to do with how and where you drive. If it's a short, level run to the boat ramp, no problem. If you're driving through the mountains, it's a little more stress and therefore riskier.


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## bandaidmd (Jul 28, 2011)

Its probably a liability issue why you cars not "listed" to tow a trailer. Weight wise theres no more strain from pulling a small trailer than there would be stuffing the trunk and backseat on a trip home from sams club, aerodynamics will drag you down a bit but no more so than a cartop rack would. If a commercial hitch is not available you will have to go with a custom from a welding shop. I have a hitch on my 3 cyl geo metro and it pulls a small utility trailer just fine. My 65 hp Harley has pulled my wife and I and a trailer thru every state on the east coast, heck theres people that pull pop up campers with motorcycles. IMHO go for it.


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## bandaidmd (Jul 28, 2011)

theuselessone said:


> Firstly, I apologize if this has already been discussed, but I didn't see anything too similar when I did a search.
> 
> As the title says, I'd like to know what sort of car would be capable of towing a Laser dinghy on a trailer.
> 
> ...


Your profile doesn't say where you located but if your anywhere near the middle of maryland and need help with the hitch either installing or modifying let me know.


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

theuselessone said:


> For future reference, what other (small-ish) cars would be able to tow small dinghies and also don't cost a fortune to maintain and fuel?


Not sure where you got your mileage numbers for the Subaru Impreza. I get 26-28 on the highway with my 2005 WRX and the non-turbo does better. The new 2012 Impreza is rated at 37 MPG on the highway. The Audis and VWs with the 2.0T typically will get about 30 MPG on the highway.


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## theuselessone (Oct 17, 2008)

bandaidmd said:


> Its probably a liability issue why you cars not "listed" to tow a trailer.


That's what I gathered from scouring other websites.



bandaidmd said:


> Your profile doesn't say where you located but if your anywhere near the middle of maryland and need help with the hitch either installing or modifying let me know.


Thanks for the offer, I am usually in either Gaithersburg or St. Mary's City, depending on the time of year for school. Other than that, I'm looking towards grad school next year so I'm not sure where I'll be after that.



JimsCAL said:


> Not sure where you got your mileage numbers for the Subaru Impreza. I get 26-28 on the highway with my 2005 WRX and the non-turbo does better. The new 2012 Impreza is rated at 37 MPG on the highway. The Audis and VWs with the 2.0T typically will get about 30 MPG on the highway.


That sounds pretty reasonable. I use estimate Edmunds and/or fueleconomy.gov to get a feel of what the MPG would be.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

bandaidmd said:


> ...theres no more strain from pulling a small trailer than there would be stuffing the trunk and backseat on a trip home from sams club...


This is so untrue that your response may actually be a liability issue.  The distribution of static weight and dynamic stresses are totally different for a trailer. With a trailer the stress is concentrated at one point far behind the rear axle (the hitch ball), which makes the dynamics of the car when turning and/or stopping totally different.



theuselessone said:


> bandaidmd said:
> 
> 
> > Its probably a liability issue why you cars not "listed" to tow a trailer..
> ...


Well if you read it on the Internet, it must be true! uke

It's a very common fallacy to dismiss facts that you don't understand as "lawyer talk." If your car's manufacturer has not rated your vehicle for towing a trailer, that may mean that your car has either not been tested, or it was tested and failed. Neither is a good scenario.

You may be OK towing your trailer. But don't let strangers mislead you about the potential risks. If you're checking websites, make sure the advice you are getting is from people who are using your exact same car to tow a trailer that is at least as heavy as yours. Otherwise you're being misled by worthless Internet gossip.


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## theuselessone (Oct 17, 2008)

RhythmDoctor said:


> Well if you read it on the Internet, it must be true! uke
> 
> It's a very common fallacy to dismiss facts that you don't understand as "lawyer talk." If your car's manufacturer has not rated your vehicle for towing a trailer, that may mean that your car has either not been tested, or it was tested and failed. Neither is a good scenario.


Perhaps I should reword my statement to "That's what the consensus seems to be from scouring other websites".



RhythmDoctor said:


> You may be OK towing your trailer. But don't let strangers mislead you about the potential risks. If you're checking websites, make sure the advice you are getting is from people who are using your exact same car to tow a trailer that is at least as heavy as yours. Otherwise you're being misled by worthless Internet gossip.


That's why I ended posting about it. I've read people who have towed with cars in the same size range, but slightly larger/more powerful. I haven't seen much information on towing with smaller cars until a few were mentioned in this thread.


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## nickmerc (Nov 2, 2008)

As stated earlier you will not have an issue getting started or going straight. The manual tranny is helpful, but expect to wear the clutch faster than normal since you will probably let it slip more during acceleration when towing. People tend to be ginger when towing at first. Keep current on your brake and tire maintenance (a good idea anyway, but more important when towing). Learn how to balance your trailer so you get the 10% tongue weight. This will make the trailer stable and allow you to have control over your car. We can have a whole thread on how to trail properly.

For reference I towed an '82 Hobie 18 (~400 lbs) on a steel (~500 lbs) and later aluminum (~250 lbs) trailer with a loaded box (~150 lbs) from Vermont to Maryland regularly. My vehicle was/is '01 VW Passat with the 1.8T and a 5 speed manual tranny. When you add up the weight using the lighter trailer it is ~900 lbs. This is less than loading up the three other seats and the trunk so it had the needed stopping power. As for the suspension I only had about 100 - 150 lbs on the tongue so the shocks were fine (actually I finally put new rear shocks on at ~260,000 miles).

What I am trying to say is your "small" car will be fine if you are towing a few hundred pounds. It comes down to proper trailer loading and understanding how to drive with a trailer. Don't jerk the wheel of your car at highway speeds, don't turn and brake at the same time, brake early and gradually, and generally be smart about driving.

I have used the car to trailer my boat since new and I now have over 260,000 miles on it and am on my third clutch and I just replaced my original rear shocks. So, if you are responsible about loading your vehicle it will still last a long time. BTW, I used to load the trunk and backseat full of tools and camping gear and the roof rack with two sea kayaks and two mountain bikes when I did the long trips with the boat.

If you want to know more about towing and get answers from people who are doing it all of the time, try the Hobie forums. Even though you only have "half a boat" they will still be glad to help out.


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## dhays (Jul 9, 2010)

When I'm not sailing, I'm often spending weekends racing autocross. Many owners of small sport cars put trailer hitches on them to two a small trailer to carry their race tires, jacks, stands, and tool box. Think of a '99 Mazda Miata with a trailer. The lazer is light and if you get a very lightweight trailer for it, the only issue you will have will be how to put a hitch on your Mazda. If it can be done with small sports cars, you can do it with the Protege.

Dave


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

RhythmDoctor said:


> This is so untrue that your response may actually be a liability issue.  The distribution of static weight and dynamic stresses are totally different for a trailer. With a trailer the stress is concentrated at one point far behind the rear axle (the hitch ball), which makes the dynamics of the car when turning and/or stopping totally different.
> 
> It's a very common fallacy to dismiss facts that you don't understand as "lawyer talk." If your car's manufacturer has not rated your vehicle for towing a trailer, that may mean that your car has either not been tested, or it was tested and failed. Neither is a good scenario.
> 
> You may be OK towing your trailer. But don't let strangers mislead you about the potential risks. If you're checking websites, make sure the advice you are getting is from people who are using your exact same car to tow a trailer that is at least as heavy as yours. Otherwise you're being misled by worthless Internet gossip.


It's a uniquely American view that you have to have a larger car (or more commonly, a pickup or SUV) specifically designed for towing. The fact is, his Mazda towing 300lb (trailer to car weight ratio : about 1:8) will stop and corner far better than any pick up towing a 3000lb boat (ratio about 1 to 1.5).

Of course you have to take the trailer into account when cornering and braking. But that's common to any trailer/car combination.

Are you saying that Curt, the biggest and most reputable hitch manufacturer in the world, didn't test that hitch they are selling is safe for towing up to 2000 lbs?


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

Of course if you really want to tow a boat properly.. you do it like this :










If I had a dollar for every time someone asked me "do you tow that boat with that Jag?"...


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

MarkSF said:


> ...Are you saying that Curt, the biggest and most reputable hitch manufacturer in the world, didn't test that hitch they are selling is safe for towing up to 2000 lbs?


Actually, yes, as someone who has bought hitches from Curt, Reese, and Draw-Tite before, I am saying that when Curt sells a hitch for a car that is not rated for pulling a trailer, they do actually tell you not to pull a trailer with it. Hitches are also used for bike racks and other non-trailer attachments. So when you buy a hitch for a non-trailering car, they tell you to only use it for bike racks and similar attachments.

They also tell you that the load capacity is limited by the LOWER of the hitch or the vehicle. So if you buy a 2000 lb hitch that goes on a car that is rated to tow only 1000 lb, they tell you to pull no more than 1000 lb.

I'm not telling this guy not to trailer his little boat. But he needs to realize that he is operating outside the recommended uses of his vehicle and take special precautions, and be prepared for his insurance company to deny collision, comprehensive, and liability(!) coverage if he has an accident.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

If you haven't bought the trailer, you might consider putting the laser on a roof rack...I used to carry the laser on the roof when we needed to bring along a another boat on the trailer, like a 420.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

The insurance company DENYING coverage is a bunch of hoo haw and baloney! All he has to do is say he is towing to the insurance company, the adjust if any his policy amount, away he goes! He may get cancelled AFTER the accident assuming it is his fault. no different than a DUI or equal. 

I've towed too many miles over a manufactures amount, it is not funny. ALL of it legal per the LEO/CVEO's that enforce the road laws. NOW< a civil suit MIGHT BE< and WILL BE a different scenario. BUT< from the standpoint of of an LEO, they do not know his or my trucks tow rating(s), so as long as the car is stable, stopping in the appropriate lengths they will test you at the side of the road etc. your legal as far as they are concerned.

The hitch manufactures are recomending a no tow or lower of limit, as the hitch manufacture is not willing to stretch THEIR neck out to say towing with said rig is safe or what ever is limiting the rig from getting a tow rating per say from the manufacture.

Marty


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## theuselessone (Oct 17, 2008)

sailingfool said:


> If you haven't bought the trailer, you might consider putting the laser on a roof rack...I used to carry the laser on the roof when we needed to bring along a another boat on the trailer, like a 420.


I'm not sure about the roof rack, seems as though my car's roof is a bit short to adequately support the length of a laser on it.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Putting a boat on the roof will take more energy/gas/fuel etc, than towing a trailer due to wind resistance! In reality, putting it on the roof may also cause more overheating etc. than towing a small trailer behind! 

If you can find yourself a small aluminum trailer, at a reasonable cost vs a steel one, that should put your overall wt down to a minimum, car should be able to handle it etc. 

Not sure personally which would be worst, a hitch with 100 lbs of bikes etc, or a 400 lb trailer with 40-60 lbs of Hitch wt, and the rest behind from a handling standpoint! I think I would go with the trailer for being safer etc.

Marty


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

I think that if this guy can tow a boat, you'll be fine:


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

theuselessone said:


> I'm not sure about the roof rack, seems as though my car's roof is a bit short to adequately support the length of a laser on it.


You might get opinions on roof carry from laser owners with similar cars here: Laser Talk | SailingForums.com


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## ChristinaM (Aug 18, 2011)

There are definitely small cars with towing capabilities as good as the minivans people seem to want to use to tow dinghys. I've towed 400lbs of Hobie Tiger on a ~1000lb trailer with both a 2002 VW Golf (2.0L, not turbo, 115hp) and a 2003 VW Jetta (1.8T with sport suspension, ~170hp). Both were rated to tow 2000lbs (manual transmissions). The automatic transmission ratings were lower but still at least 1000lbs.

The only difficulty is ignoring stares from people, especially those who realize that the space between the hulls is almost wider than the car. It makes a really weird visual effect (hull, air, car, air, hull). I now have a 2.0T VW GTI that does better than 30 mpg unless I'm really enjoying it  It doesn't tow because the 03 Jetta is doing just fine. The Audi A4 has the same engine turned 90 degrees. I've known a few people with them and mileage is generally pretty good. At the extreme with all in city driving in a Canadian February cold snap the mileage in the Golf might've been as bad as 20mpg. In my experience, the 1.8T and 2.0T are never as thirsty as that 2.0.

It really depends on the car and manufacturer. If there's no tow rating, don't tow with that car. E.g., the Ford Fusion is larger and more powerful than my old Golf but is not rated for towing.


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## baboon (Aug 7, 2008)

I have pulled a laser on a big box store steel utility trailer a well as car topped it, the trailer is better. Not sure about saftey/milage, but I got real tired of having to find another person to help lift my single person boat onto the roof. At about 140 lbs it is pretty heavy to lift overhead.

If I was to get another trailer it would be a Trailex or Kitty Hawk. They are so light they can also be used as a hand launch dolly. The total weight of boat plus trailer would be under 250 lbs if you spring for the aluminum version. Both make a laser specific version (or used to, have not looked in a while).


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

It really depends on the car and manufacturer. If there's no tow rating, don't tow with that car. E.g., the Ford Fusion is larger and more powerful than my old Golf but is not rated for towing.[/QUOTE]

Yet the European Mondeo is the same car, and rated for towing 1475kg (over 3000 lbs!). The lack of towing rating is really a marketing decision - they would rather people bought a separate tow vehicle, eg SUV or pick-up, on which they make a much better margin.

There really is not a car made that can't tow 300lbs in complete safety.


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## simpsoned (Jun 6, 2006)

I have a Rhodes Bantam, which is about the same size and weight as a Laser...I tow it with a little Subaru Forester and it does just fine...pay attention to hills, you may have to do some downshifting, and use your tranny to help stopping when headed down hill...brakes can smell awful when burning up.
ed


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## theuselessone (Oct 17, 2008)

Thanks for all the advice, I've definitely added (quite a bit) more to the list of things to do/check out (and still leaning towards towing).


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## WDS123 (Apr 2, 2011)

Get roof racks


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

Google is your friend. Looks like Reese makes a hitch (Class I)... sounds like the Proto is given at 500lb tow cap by Europe, if you have the auto... the manual gets slightly more.

But there are people who lived to tell about towing more:
Towing capacity...or lack thereof - Club Protege

Also try etrailer, they are good for prices, and very helpful. 
Somone else towing a trailer with a Protoge' 
http://www.etrailer.com/question-4183.html


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