# Budgeting: boat vs ''kitty''



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Budgeting: boat vs ''''kitty''''*

As I mentioned in another thread (''Is now the time?'') I''m in a place in my life (single, no job/ties) and been presented with the funds to achieve something I''ve always wanted to do: Cruise on a live aboard.

I have about $100K to work with. This is for both boat and the funds required to live. Assuming I do not work again I consider this a ''fixed'' amount that will have to last me until Social Security kicks in (5-8 yrs). I do have a few $K more tucked away ''here & there'' but I''m reserving that for emergencies. Otherwise, that''s it. I''m assuming (from everything I hear) not to count on much, if any, of an income while sailng/cruising... jobs are just not available. Rather, barter is the currency of sailors.

My first thoughts on a ''budget'' was assuming $40K for the boat which would leave me $60K to live on/sail with. Assuming an avg budget of $650/mo for living expenses (more than I need for myself now) it would last 8 yrs. Yes, I know ''the Best Laid Plans'' but I have to start the numbers somewhere.

Anyway, I''m finding the type of forgiving, seaworthy boat I''m thinking I want for singlehandling (full keel, displacement hull) of the size I''d want (31-34'') in that price range is older, likely to have problems requiring high $$$ maintenance, already ''fully depreciated'', etc..

So my question is this: Should I consider allocating more of my budget toward the purchase of the boat thus decreasing my ''sailing kitty'' budget? i.e. look for a better, albeit more expensive $50-60K boat and take a hit on the ''kitty'' leaving $40-50K in the living expense (etc.) budget? That would still provide me 5-6 years cruising time.

I read someones post saying (and I paraphrase) ''if you have to ask how much the boat cost, you can''t afford it'' whereupon the reply was ''if I waited until I could afford it I''d never be sailing... I''ll buy the boat and figure out how to pay for it later''.

In other words, should I spend more $$ on a better boat than I''m seeing in the <$40K range and worry about the living expenses later?


----------



## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

*Budgeting: boat vs ''''kitty''''*

You should be able to find a perfectly adequate single hander for less than $40K. I would actually suggest that you budget something in the high 20K range and leaving a reasonable budget for fitting out. If you have your heart set on a full keel boat boat dispite its liabilities and handicaps for what you are proposing, there are still a number of very worthwhile options out there.

If you open your choices to consider moderate fin keel boats the problem becomes very easy. Some likely candidates that come to mind would include the following:
Aloha 34; 
Cal 34;
C&C Corvette 31: Great boats
Chris Craft Cherokee (32'')
Ericson 31c 
Galaxy 32
Pearson 323: (Near the top of my list) 
Rhodes Swiftshore: (33'' Seafarer)
Seawind Ketch 31''If you must have a full keel.)
Southern Cross 31:
Tartan 34 (which would be extremely high on my list)

Good hunting,
Jeff


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Budgeting: boat vs ''''kitty''''*

I''ve taken a look at some of the boats you''ve mentioned and honestly they just aren''t my style. Racers/cruisers like C&C''s & Beneteau''s and/or production boats like Pearsons & Tartans may be popular but boats that list accent stripes as a feature just aren''t my cup ''o tea.

Getting there in a hurry is not a priority. Getting there without having to re-glass a bulkhead or deck/hull joint because of a 10 hr passage in heavy chop is not a option. Gas engines and centerboarders are DEFINATELY out.

I''m more a traditionalist I suppose... a canoe stern/tiller, wide displacement hull with a nice galley & nav station looking out dogged portholes type, i.e. likely a Westsail 32 wannabe. Point is, although I''ll probably remain in the Fla/Carribean area if I decide to head off to Tahiti or visit the Med I don''t want to have to look for a different boat.

I''ve considered the ''buy cheap and rebuild/refit'' (Cheoy Lee Clipper 33, Mariner 32 Ketch) but in the end I''d have more $$ in the boat than it''s really worth.

That''s why I was wondering if it wasn''t maybe better to spend more up front than I planned, thought I could ''get away with'' (and cross the bridge of where the living expense came from when I came to it).


----------



## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

*Budgeting: boat vs ''''kitty''''*

First of all, all of the boats on that list are available with diesels in your price range. Second of all, all of the boats on that list were there because they were capable of sailing quite well in Fla/Carribean area and would be better boats if you decide to head off to Tahiti or visit the Med than most of the long keeled heavy displacement boats out there. Very few if any of these boats would be considered ''racer cruisers or even performance cruisers''. All of these boats on the list are there because they offer sufficient robustness to do what you are proposing and then some, and come back in better shape than the leaky teaky''s that you were proposing.

Well designed centerboarders offer tremendous advantages for cruising the venues that you are proposing and frankly should be high on your list. I have known of examples of at least half of these boats (if not more) that have done successful circumnavigations. (Cal 34, C&C Corvette 31, Ericson 31c,Pearson 323, Rhodes Swiftshore: Seawind Ketch 31''(First fiberglass boat to do a circumnavigation), Southern Cross 31, and Tartan 34)

You need to get past your prejudices if you are going find a boat to do what you want to to do within your price range. As someone who has owned, designed, and spent a lot of time on a wide range of boats, full length keels are an anacronism that offers no real advantages in a small fiberglass boat. I strongly suggest that you do a lot more homework, and then get realistic so that you actually have a chance of finding a boat that suits your needs before your Soc Sec kicks in. ;^)

Regards,
Jeff


----------



## jack_patricia (May 20, 2001)

*Budgeting: boat vs ''''kitty''''*

M:

I wish I could add to Jeff''s comments but I''ve run out of time. Read Jeff''s post yet again; what you need to know is there.

Jack


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Budgeting: boat vs ''''kitty''''*

I''ve looked at the boats Jeff mentioned (at least pics anyway). Some bear a second, more in-depth look (going to see a Southern Cross in a couple weeks).

I don''t have any prejudice against modern designs at all. However, since I''ll ultimately be putting my life at stake on whatever boat I end up with I do have some basic prejudices 

Beyond that I do have to say I abhor the ''clorox bottle'' boats. I know that''s a hackneyed (and probably unfair) term but we all have our differences when it comes to asthetics.


----------



## bob-m (Oct 30, 2002)

*Budgeting: boat vs ''''kitty''''*

I will leave the discussion of "which boat" to JeffH (IMO you should listen very closely to what he says). I will address your budget. I have seen figures on the minimum cost to cuise ranging from $500 to $1000 per month. While I realize that you CAN live on $500 a month, you CAN NOT maintain a sailboat to any reasonable degree for that sum.

Go into any boatyard or anchorage and you will find countless boats for sale that have had little if any maintenance done on them in years. In most cases their owners were on a tight budget, could not afford to maintain the vessel and eventually they ran out of money. The boats are not safe and in many cases they are beyond the point of being salvagable.

Any responsible boat owner will tell you that you must constantly maintain your boat and at some point you will need sails repaired, new hoses & belts, new running & standing rigging, bottom paint, zincs,etc etc etc.

So where does this leave you? If you purchase a boat for $30k and spend another 10-15k getting it ready to cruise, you also need to budget another $15k to maintain it over the next five years. (Of course, you can always sail it for a few years without any maintenance and let it join the the legion of other derelict boats.)

I do not want to discourage you, but you should go into this with a full understanding of the "true" costs.

Good luck with your plans


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Budgeting: boat vs ''''kitty''''*

Not to worry, I respect/appreciate what Jeff_H has to say. As I''ve mentioned elsewhere, we do have somewhat different ''philosophies'' but his experience on various types sailboats is definately helpful and his analytical approach enlightening.

I also fully appreciate what it costs/takes to maintain a boat as well. I was once a licensed Coast Guard captain (on a 43'' stinkpot) and completely restored a Rhodes 19 (including installing mahogany toerails, new keel frames/bolts, duckboards, deck/hull paint and even some nice, decorative marlingspike  etc.. Sailed her offshore up/down the coast and enjoyed every minute of it which is what planted the seed I''m watering today.

I don''t think $3K/yr is an outrageous sum to consider for maintenance. It certainly wouldn''t hurt to ''earmark'' some such sum just in case. But I also think the annual maintenance cost will depend on the choice of boat and the onboard systems.

Fortunately (as I''ve mentioned elsewhere as well) I''m a backpacker, not a ''RV camper'' and certainly not trying to replicate my shore life comforts on a boat (I just inherited some $$$, I didn''t win the lotto . By & large the most complicated systems onboard will be diesel, propane, windvane, solar and the fresh/saltwater plumbing (galley/head/bilge). As a possible compromise to my shore comfort I will consider refrigeration (although I''m leaning away from it). Only electronics will be VHF, CW/SSB (I''m a licensed ham), a hand held GPS and a simple depthfinder. In short, I definately plan to K.I.S.S.. No digital pilots, chartplotters, radar, A/C, watermaker, hot water heater, etc. wanted/needed.

I''ve also got the skills to do pretty much all my own maintenance (with the exception of diesel mechanics which I''ll learn). I''ve got good fiberglass, electrical/electronic, wood & metal working skills.

Finally, I have no intention of buying a boat that will take a year to (re)outfit. Whatever boat I buy will have a sound hull, fresh sails, rigging, etc.. and configured for shorthanded sailing. If it doesn''t, well, I''ve waited years to get here, I can wait more if needed to find the right boat for me. This is not to say I think I''ll be able to find a boat I can just step on and sail away. No boat is perfect. Just I''m not going to buy a boat that needs the deck replaced or new standing rigging and/or change the windvane because I just have to have an Aries.

Bottom line is, I know what it takes to maintain a boat (never let it get ahead of you) and short of a freak catastrophe or doing something stupid (always a possibility  can manage any maintenance costs to be in an acceptable range.

But I hear you. I distinctly remember, back when I was a ''professional boat driver'' how when the boat had to be in the yard how it was definately nice to have someone else paying for the repair


----------



## VIEXILE (Jan 10, 2001)

*Budgeting: boat vs ''''kitty''''*

A friend of mine has a Pearson 365 Ketch presently for sale in St. Thomas for, I believe, $45,000.00 and NEEDS to move up (two kids, dog, wife). He''s completely anal about maintenance and I think the Perkins rebuild was put in not too many years ago. It''s one tough boat, has all the goodies, and would undoubtedly suit your needs. There''s also a Southern Cross 28 for sale in good shape and the owner''s up in Wisconsin, but to me, that''s the epitome of hobby-horsing.


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Budgeting: boat vs ''''kitty''''*

At 37'' the Pearson is too much boat for me. I''m staying under 34'' LOA.

Interesting comment about the Southern Cross being a ''hobby horse''. Is this from 1st hand experience?

On paper at least her B/D is avg but ''motion comfort index'' is pretty high (39''ish). Although not my 1st choice the Southern Cross 31 is on my short list of boats to look at.


----------



## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

*Budgeting: boat vs ''''kitty''''*

With all due respect the motion comfort index tells you absolutely nothing about whether a boat has a comfortable motion or not any more than the capsize screen tells you anything about the likeligood of a capsize. I know that I have explained this to here before but here it is again, both of these formulas were developed at a time when boats were a lot more similar to each other than they are today. These formulas have limited utility in comparing boats that otherwise are very similar. Neither formula contains almost any of the real factors that control motion comfort or seaworthiness. Neither formula contains such factors as the vertical center of gravity or bouyancy, neither contains weight or buoyancy distribution, and neither contains any data on dampening all of which really are the major factors that control motion comfort or likelihood of capsize.

I typically give this example to explain just how useless and dangerously misleading these formulas can be. If we had two boats that were virtually identical except that one had a 1000 pound weight at the top of the mast. (Yes, I know that no one would install a 1000 lb weight at the top of the mast.) The boat with the weight up its mast would appear to be less prone to capsize under the capsize screen formula, and would appear to be more comfortable under the Motion Comfort ratio. Nothing would be further than the truth. That is why I see these formulas as being worse than useless.

Respectfully,
Jeff


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Budgeting: boat vs ''''kitty''''*

Excellent points, not that I was picking out the boat I''m going to buy simply based on any spreadsheet. I am certainly aware there are a whole host of factors that contribute to how well a particular boat (even among the same design) sails, how comfortable they are, etc.

However, I can see dramatic differences in ''The Numbers'' between, say a J/30 and a Westsail 32. So if, for example I''m looking for characteristics similar to that of the Westsail, ''The Numbers'' help me find similar boats at least *based on numbers*. It is, at least, a place to start.

It''s then up to me to actually research the other boats via owners, sea trials, etc. etc. to find out first hand if they are indeed at leas somewhat similar.

The Southern Cross is a good example. By ''the Numbers'' the SC compares reasonably close to the WS32. Thus my question regarding the comment describing the Southern Cross being the ''epitome of hobby horsing'' (implying there is clearly a difference between what ''The Numbers'' say and reality).

Probably a moot point anyway as I''m rapidly concluding I should just get what I really want all along anyway... a Westsail 32


----------



## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

*Budgeting: boat vs ''''kitty''''*

Actually, the Westsail 32, like most heavy small double enders are nortorious for hobby-horsing in a chop. I would think that the Southern Cross would be a little less prone to do so.

What are the ''similar characteristics to a Westsail'' that you are looking for.

Jeff


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Budgeting: boat vs ''''kitty''''*

Well, lets see

Must have:
''classic lines'', 32'' LOD (or thereabouts) with 26-27'' min LWL (no excessive overhang, bow or stern). min 10'' beam, Med/heavy displacement with full (or cutout forefoot) keel. Outboard rudder. Non-skid deck (no teak). Capsize formula under 2. Less than 6'' draft fully loaded. overbuilt hull & hull to deck fastening. High bulwarks. deck stepped mast. external chain plates. well balanced helm (i.e. tried/true sailplan for hull). winches big enough for the job. fast draining cockpit. U-shaped galley (with sink close/on centerline), decent nav station, roomy for size, generous lockers, fuel/water storage. easy/open engine room access. tiller steering. bronze portlights w/screens. Last, but not least, a boat I''m confident I can ''easily'' handle singlehanded.

Highly desirable items:
double ended hull. Sloop/cutter rigged
lead ballast (prefer no concrete/punchings)
prop in aperture
winches placed aft near cockpit
some teak trim for looks
at least a couple cowl vents/dorades
locker over galley island
Bronze anything

Nice to have:
cockpit long enough to sleep in (alas, not the case for WS32 tho).

That''s what comes to mind off the top of my head anyway.


----------



## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

*Budgeting: boat vs ''''kitty''''*

That sounds like any Scandinavian cruising boat designed 80 years or so ago. Yacht design has come a long way since then. In other words you are not looking for an offshore yacht, you are looking for antique. ;^)

Even by the late 1920''s it was pretty much agreed upon that a vessel that had headsails tacked to the end of the bowsprit was not suitable for offshore work.

BTW Westsails track well but like most full keeled boats, they are notorious for developing massive amounts of weather helm. This can be offset by overtrimming the staysail or reefing early but at the price of putting on the brakes.

Jeff


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Budgeting: boat vs ''''kitty''''*

Don''t underestimate the need for speed!!! After more than two years of looking we bought a Pearson 323. We have had this boat for almost a year and are happy with the choice. I used the numbers as a first screen as recommended by Don Casey and Roger Marshall. Marshall''s book is a good read. I agree with Jeff H. that the numbers can be misleading but I think that they are usefull as a first approximation of what a boat might be like. 
Back to speed. Even though you might not race the PHRF numbers should be considered. A slow boat in light winds equals a stinkpot. A friend with a big heavy full keeled boat motored completely across the Gulf of Mexico from Mobile to Isla Mujeres!!!! The P323 is not a fast boat but it isn''t a absolute dog like some of full keeled boats. We are paying the price of buying a relatively heavy boat with a modest sail plan.
After a year of sailing along the gulf coast of alabama and western florida there hasn''t been a day that we haven''t sailed because of too much wind!!!! Sure a couple of times we sailed with only a reefed main and stayed in the bay. But many hours we have spent with too little wind ghosting along at less than 3 knots. If you are going to be mostly coastal sailing the east and gulf coasts think of speed. If you don''t plan to sail in bad weather and can''t sail in light winds think about buying a trawler. I am not joking about the trawler. We seriously considered a trawler but love sailing too much. The friend with the heavy full keeled boat said that if he was buying a new boat that it might be a trawler. BTW he has lived on his boat since 1980.
Tom


----------



## jack_patricia (May 20, 2001)

*Budgeting: boat vs ''''kitty''''*

I am always surprised at how discussions of a Westsail 32 never seem to acknowledge the lack of ergonomics and comfort in its cockpit, despite the functionality of that space being important almost regardless of how the boat is used (liveaboard in the harbor, coastal cruiser, offshore voyager).

Tom makes a good point about light wind being far more often the challenge than heavy wind...but the Big Bend area of the Gulf Coast is biased heavily towards lighter than usual winds and is not a good benchmark to use when e.g. compared to sailing in New England, SF Bay, or the Bahamas and even sailing off Miami. Having a sail plan that is easily reduced is a critical issue with all boats.

Jack


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Budgeting: boat vs ''''kitty''''*

I interested in why you feel the WS32 cockpit lacks ergonomics and/or functionality. How is a C&C, Pearson and the other boats mentioned here more ergonomic/functional?

Guys, Here''s how I feel about some of the boats mentioned thus far: In this day & age of maximizing profits/minimizing manufacturing costs, marketing, etc. purely to please analysts/stockholders there is NO way you can convince me that the production boats made in the last 5-10 years are being manufactured to the standard of quality older boats enjoy.

Unless money is no object of course but that''s not the ''class'' of boat being seriously suggested I consider in lieu of the ''oughta be in a museum'' Westsail. As much as I''d wish otherwise I don''t have 100''s of thousands of dollars to buy a Lord Nelson, or Island Packet, Pacific Seacraft, etc..

TBH though, I don''t doubt the Pearsons, C&C''s, Beneteau''s, etc. are fine boats for the particular market they''re designed for (''market'' being the operative word). IMHO boats by these (and similar) manufacturers view the market as a consumer just like Ford/Chevy/etc. view the market... Trade in every few years when the next new model comes out.

And even discounting the likelyhood of the continual desire to maximize profits/minimize production costs I''m no marine architect but I look at the layouts of these (and similar) boats and wonder ''what are they thinking''? Look at the ads for such boats on yachtworld. I suspect there is a reason most of them don''t show pics of the engine (because it takes a degree in laproscopic surgery to access them). Why even bother calling that dinky table a ''navigation station'' other than marketing mandating ''make sure the design has something we can call a nav station''. Galleys with about 2'' square available countertop (and no lockers), decks with about 8" space between the cabin & toerail, zip for storage space.

Frankly, I just don''t get why people think these kind of ''mass production'' boats are a better choice. But that''s just my opinion and I''m sticking with it


----------



## Silmaril (Feb 22, 2003)

*Budgeting: boat vs ''''kitty''''*

MMCCOY... I feel your pain! The problems are multiple, and I am no expert but may help to shed some light.

First, older boats. One of the big problems with older fiberglass boats comes from the wildly varying manufacturing techniques used and the practices follwed. Resin was mixed in tubs, and often applied with no environmental controls or concideration. On a hot day, the catalyst was reduced to prolong the "kick" time. On cold days it was increased to make a batch "kick" faster. Glass was often cut in advance and then FOLDED for storage for later use. It was also thought that fiberglass was "Waterproof" and that is why osmotic blistering is such a problem today. Many designs were influenced by either the old IOR rule or even older CCA rule. Neither rule was meant to make the fastest or safest boat, just one that rated better on handicap. I know you are not planning to race, it''s just that so many of the designs were influenced by the rules.

There were a few real quality builders out there. Companies like Palmer Johnson, Nautor, Direcktor, Hinckley, and Luke are still there, producing fine boats, and many of their older boats are still going strong. But they were premium priced boats when new and still command a pretty penny today. A "budget priced" example will probably be well used and require a substantial investment to bring it up to blue water standards.

After it''s heyday in the 70''s the IOR rule began to fall into disfavor, and more sensible heads prevailed. Designers like Frers, Farr, and others started to make their designs more user friendly and sea kindly.

After the great "Luxury Tax" fall-out of the 80''s, few small manufacturers survived, either to be swallowed up by the bigger companies or left to close shop for good. Once the field was narrowed down to a couple of companies, production yachts were now designed by commitee and had to satisfy the corporate bottom line. Focus group marketing and price targetting became the driving force behind the newer boats. You are correct, todays "Big Three" may as well be GM, Ford, Toyota, churning out profit to the corporate bottom line.

The smaller companies just could not compete. Firms like Holby and Carroll Marine, while offering a superior product just could not sell a boat for twice the price of the big three.

But there were a couple of exceptions. J-Boats is one. They make a fine product that holds up well. Their designs seem to be a bit more sensible. While mainly known for their racing boats they have a couple of gems worth taking a look at. Their J-42 is a very nice example of a modern performance cruising yacht in the $250k range. The J-40 is also a very sweet design in the $150k range (although the nav station is not my favorite on that one).

You can also find the occasional older boat that some owner has updated and cared for over the years. The C&C 40 is a nicely designed and constructed boat. They cruise very nicely and can be had in the $90k range.

One of my all time favorites in the older "Can make it around the world" class is the Tartan 41. A bit much to handle with its heavily IOR influenced design, but they were build like the proverbial "Brick Sh*t House" and can be had in the $60k range.

A sleeper in this range is the Newport 41. The Mark II version is a very nice all around performer. I just don''t like dinette salons.

I have no first hand experience with them, but I have heard great things about the Peterson 44. A center cockpit cutter, they are in the $100k range.

Another vessel that seems to do well is the Brewer 42. Nicely laid out and well built. They are in the $120k range.

The biggest problem I find is that any older boat, pretty enough to be in a picture, should probably stay there, in a picture, that is. Fine ends, overhang, lots of wood, leave it on the mooring for others to admire!

I would probably search for a boat in the 40 - 42 foot range. Something that passes structurally sound in the survey. Then plan on about a year or two ripping every wire, hose, through-hull, instrument and standing and running rigging and replacing it with new. The solid hull and interior would cost about $60k depending on the boat, and probably the same $60k to re-do everything, depending on how much you can do yourself. At least then you will know your boat inside and out and know that everything will be new, and done right, in preperation for your extended sojourns.

I would plan on spending less for the boat, more for the refit, with the hopes of spending less "fixing things" out on the ocean. That way would would have a boat that would more closely match what your needs were, and not the previous owners.

I''m also a bit fan of the 40 foot rule. Go to sea in something over 40 feet. It''s always nice to be bigger than most of the waves in a storm. Less intimidating. Properly rigged, they can be easy to handle. And the extra waterline means more speed in the passage.


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Budgeting: boat vs ''''kitty''''*

Although I agree with lots that Sil said, I guess he didn''t see your budget. I''m currious, where are U planning to cruise? Do U plan serious ocean passages, or staying coastal/ carribean? I''ll agree with Bigger is Better, always, but I have read stories of people circumnavigating in a 19'' boat. I''ll also tend to agree, that when it comes to heavy weather, having a structually sound sea kindly boat is important, but skill and ability of Capt and Crew are even more important.

Sounds to me like you know what you want, so just go for it. Make sure she is sound, have a very good survey done, make sure she''s in the shape needed to go where you want to go and just do it. You started with an important question which seems to have lost this topic- what do you put more $$$ into- boat or kitty. It depends on what type of cruising you will do is the way I see the answer. So where are you cruising? If you will expose yourself to ocean passages where the possibilty of hitting real Stink is likely, if it were me, I''d want more ''Boat''. If you dont make it to port, you won''t need to worry about what you had or didnt have in that kitty!

Good Luck


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Budgeting: boat vs ''''kitty''''*

After looking at a number of boats I kept coming back to the Westsail so that''s what I bought.

I swear, some of the newer boats look/feel like they were ''extruded'' instead of built. About the only tip of the hat to any nautical heritage is they have sails and sit in the water. As I''ve mentioned, I guess production boat designers today are too pressured to keep costs down to build any ''character'' into a boat.

Someone said (I paraphrase) ''if it looks pretty enough to be in a picture then that''s where it ought to be''. Sorry but I heartily disagree. There is no reason (other than cost) that a boat cannot be both functional and pretty. I guess when it comes to the more modern designs beauty is truly in the eye of the beholder.

Anyway, back to the Westsail. A number of things made me decide on ''This Old Boat''. Not the least of which was the very easy & open access to the engine and the enormous storage & ''elbow room'' down below. Very important factors to me that I just didn''t find on newer boats in this price/size range.

Hope to see ya''ll in the Caribbean soon!


----------



## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

*Budgeting: boat vs ''''kitty''''*

Congratulations on buying a boat. I wish you the best of luck with your new ''good all boat''.

I did want to comment on your criticism of newer designs. We all make decisions based on how much ''show'' vs how much ''go'' that we are looking for. You clearly are more concerned with having more show (of a certain vintage) than go and that is perfectly alright since this your boat and not ours. As you have suggested beauty is in the eye of the beholder and your eye is drawn to a certain look.

To others of us, we like the aesthtics of the better modern modern designs. They look the way they do for both functional and aesthetic reasons. If you understand and appreciate the hydrodynamics of modern boats, they are absolutely gorgeous. I strongly disagree that their simplier cleaner look have anything to do with cost.Instead I contend that the modern aesthetic has everything to do with function and a sense of proportion which for whatever reason does not appeal to you, but does appeal to many of us. In any event there is no right and wrong here.

Again good luck with the old girl.

Jeff


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Budgeting: boat vs ''''kitty''''*

I do want to thank you for ''keeping me honest'' Jeff. You at least motivated me to think about a (major) purchase with a more open mind instead of just just buying the boat I thought I wanted. Got me to at least look at some other boats.

Nevertheless, it turned out the WS32 was still indeed the boat I wanted. I hope you (and everyone) understands my ''criticism'' of the more modern designs was toward the boats and NOT the owners of such boats. As we''ve both stated, beauty is simply in the eye of the beholder.

I was just too impressed with the many attributes of the Westsail that none of the other boats seemed to offer (i.e. easy/open engine access, tons of storage, nice wide deck, high bulwarks, etc.) as well as just her reputation for seaworthiness.

FYI, during most of the seatrial we had 10-15 knt winds and she sailed easily (and comfortable) at about 6 kn. What I would expect for a 27 LWL. Later the winds kicked up to 15-20 and that''s when she really got a bone in her teeth (no reefing). Alas we got fouled with a couple crab traps so badly we had to finally anchor to contemplate how to free ourselves, even thinking maybe one of us might even have to go in the water. Not something we relished as by now there was a 3 foot ''short fetch'' bay chop that was definately causing her to ''hobbyhorse'' like you said the WS was capable of.

Great fun bobbing about like a cork but it eventually made us both seasick (the 30 year vet Cap''n was first so I don''t feel so bad about it


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Budgeting: boat vs ''''kitty''''*

mmccoy,
Bravo on the Westsail purchase. Having cruised several years on a very similar design I say you will love the comfort and attributes of that design. Where are sailing out of and when is departure?

Bill


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Budgeting: boat vs ''''kitty''''*

Her new name is HALIAI and her hailing port is New Orleans. I just have to get my condo fixed up & ready to lease (I arranged for a property mgnt svc to handle it while I''m gone) and I''m outta here.

Going to spend a few months, probably till Jan/Feb, sailing around the Gulf/panhandle to get to know her and then I''m heading South.


----------



## jack_patricia (May 20, 2001)

*Budgeting: boat vs ''''kitty''''*

M:

We''re off cruising and so my visits to this BB are infrequent to say the least. I can see that I''ve come in as you''ve completed your purchase and so, from me as well, congratulations on selecting what you think is the right boat for you. (You should know...more than anyone else!)

I would like to follow up on your question about why anyone would think a W32''s cockpit is unergonomic, as perhaps it will be helpful in your fitout. (My reaction, after being on a lot of W32''s, is how someone could find ANYTHING ergonomic.<g>)

The W32''s I''ve seen being cruised by experienced folks frequently (tho'' not always) have major mods done to the after sidedecks and above the coamings, both so cutwaters keep water on the lee deck from sloshing under your butt and also to provide decent back support. They also re-engineer the companionway entry/dodger interface to make entry/exit easier. (Once you begin living aboard, a reasonable estimate is that you will use your companionway 2,000 times/year. At the end of one year, you may have a different thought about that companionway). The tiller can be dangerous under certain circumstances and, while it isn''t a modification, care when using it is important. Given the ergonomics of the main sheet with a double fiddle block-cam cleat, sometimes the mainsheet is led to its own centerline winch, providing far more power as well as comfort. And then there are the more generic issues: making the seat surfaces comfortable, U/V protection when underway, etc. W32''s take more than the normal amount of work to make them suitable and comfortable, IMO.

Perhaps it would be useful for everyone here to have you revisit after the first 5,000 miles and tell us what you think of the boat.

Good cruising!

Jack


----------

