# Now tell me about 15' - 17' boats...



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I started the other thread about longer boats, but then getting out to see a 17' (one of the biggest there is) made it obvious that it must be a small 17' or it must be shorter. So now I want to hear about AMF Sunbirds, WWP 15s, etc. I think a Venture 17 or Siren 17 may still work; they are light and skinny so their tongues should not be too long and they can slant across a space a little. Bring it on...


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Compac makes a 16' 6" boat that might be of interest to you.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Your choices for boats of this size with a cabin become limited. There is a Mistral 16 cabin version. The West Wight Potter comes in a 15. There were the DS-16 and the Scirocco 16 made in Ontario.

As far as other options, this website has a pretty complete listing of midget cuisers that you can go through http://www.shortypen.com/boats/pocket/

With all of these boats, both the cockpit and the cabin become small. The cabin is ok for one, cramped for two. Having more than 2 adults in the cockpit is going to be cramped. You might be better off with an open boat. At least that way there is room for 3 or 4 people.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

Since you mentioned the WWPs, you should also look at the Montgomery 15 and 17. A friend had one and he speaks very highly of it, although he has a strong preference for the earlier boats that were built before the company was sold to the Nor'Sea guy.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

CapnHand said:


> With all of these boats, both the cockpit and the cabin become small. The cabin is ok for one, cramped for two. Having more than 2 adults in the cockpit is going to be cramped. You might be better off with an open boat. At least that way there is room for 3 or 4 people.


I am starting to see that as being more realistic. I am trying to get a compromise that really isn't there when you go too small. The Potters and Montys have tiny cockpits and that may be too big a price to pay for the luxury of a place to have a camping toilet and a tiny berth. The other choice I need to look hard at is the DaySailor and Sunbird design where the "cabin" is really just storage but might have room for a tired kid to lay on a cushion and the camping toilet may require stopping and popping up a kids' hoop tent for limited privacy. Camping done ashore or with a boom tent. I hate being realistic.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Anyone familar with the Newports? They have a 17' and 16' and they seem to show up from time to time. I am inquiring about a 17' that is near where I will be this weekend, but don't have high hopes (old ad). There is a 16 about 3 hours away.


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## Sapperwhite (Oct 21, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> Compac makes a 16' 6" boat that might be of interest to you.


I'll second the Compac boats. There is a Compac 16 in my boatyard, and every now and then I stop and take a long look at her. Its a very pretty boat. The 16' is called a Legacy, and there are also the Picnic Cat and Suncat boats.

http://www.com-pacyachts.com/


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## txmatt (Nov 27, 2006)

Sapperwhite said:


> I'll second the Compac boats. There is a Compac 16 in my boatyard, and every now and then I stop and take a long look at her. Its a very pretty boat. The 16' is called a Legacy, and there are also the Picnic Cat and Suncat boats.
> 
> http://www.com-pacyachts.com/


I'll third that. Here's a video of a Compac 16 sailing on Lake LBJ. If I had to go small (and a Victoria 18 wasn't small enough) it would be at the top of my list.

Good luck


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Older Compac 16s do fall down into my range sometimes, but I would definitely be looking at a removeable/foldable trailer tongue. That shoal keel requires you to stick the trailer deep in the water. Of all the boats I have seen in this size range, it is probably the one I would most like to be in if I got caught out in some rough stuff.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

My running monologue continues...

What's an A-16? May have a line on one. Was described as "more of a day sailor with a cabin than a cruiser".


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## Sapperwhite (Oct 21, 2006)

An American 16 probably.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Sapperwhite said:


> An American 16 probably.


Yes, it turns out that is exactly what it is, in good shape, available and it is definitely in the running.

There is a Newport 17 not far from where I will be this weekend that is available and the owner will be around, so I will get a chance to see a 6x17 cabin and swing keel boat. I know there are things about Newports, Ventures, Sirens and others that make them all a little different from each other, but they have an awful lot in common. Whether I like the particular boat or not I should come away knowing whether or not that type of boat will work for us and I may come home with a boat. The description on this one sounds like it is in good shape, but it is priced low compared to others and hasn't sold despite being for sale at the coast for several weeks, so I am a little wary. OTOH, I am bargain shopping so I probably will end up with something a little less than perfect.

This is not the particular boat, but a picture and some detailed info on another one:










17' long, 6' beam, 22' mast from water line 
*EDIT* - It turns out the actual length is 17' 8" and the beam is 6' 4"; it is really more in the 18' class
Shallow "V" planing hull design, low draft 
Steel centerboard and cockpit winch 
Centerboard down, draws 3'-6"; board up, draws less than 12" 
Self draining cockpit and rear interior drain plug 
The quarter berths are 3/4 length; perfect for a child and also perfect for a laundry basket. Basket pulls out for drawer-like storage. 
Drop boards remove for a very large companionway; no sliding hatch. 
No center post in cabin; mast is supported by a ceiling arch glassed into the deck. Approx 42" of headroom; crouching or sitting room. 
Mast is easy to step; no backstay, just shrouds and forestay. Tabernacle base. 
Total weight of boat and trailer approx. 1,500 lbs.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

For the sake of completeness, here is the ad for the actual one (no picture):



Newport 17 for sale said:


> Standard features of the Newport 17:
> Fiberglass construction, Aluminum mast (22') - boom, Stainless hardware, Cuddy cabin w/double bunk space, Retractable keel, 6'beam, Large cockpit, Lots of storage, Self bailing cockpit, Main and jib sails, (can add genoa - parachute spinaker), Space for portapotti, Removeable rudder/tiller for trailering.
> Extra gear included:
> Trailer, new anchor
> ...


I should be ecstatic; it sounds too good to be true. I guess I will find out if it is soon enough...


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## poltergeist (Oct 26, 2006)

*Here's what I think ...*

The Newport hasn't sold because other boat shoppers have their own well-identified needs ... which don't quite match yours. How's that for spin?

I'll tell you, Andy, it looks like someone drew it to your specs. Got my fingers crossed for you ... can almost hear your heart pounding from here.

Is the quest near an end? Stay tuned.

Kurt


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

This page (page 2 - in case this post gets bumped over to page 3) is pretty much what it is down to; if I decide the big one is too big (an unfortunate but not completely unlikely possibility) then I will probably get the A-16 and fit it out enough to make the kids happy. Although there is another possible boat. There is a Newport 16 that I might be able to look at next week. That is a very different boat than the 17. Here's a 16:
















There is less difference between that boat and the A-16 than it and the 17 IMO, so I wouldn't try all that hard to get one over an A-16. In fact, I am a little concerned about the Newport 16 design. To get leg room for berths, the put the flotation up on the rail. Maybe I am wrong, but that boat looks built to turtle and difficult to right. It would be drier since the rails are so high though.

*EDIT* - some additional info I ran across, in case someone finds this post looking for info about the Newport 16. One reason the 16 and 17 are so different is that they both only share the Newport name because of a business merger or acquisition. The 16 is also found labeled as a Neptune and as a Gloucester, while the 17 is Newport or Lockley-Newport. The 17 is substantially larger. Despite the fact that 17-16=1, the 17 is 25" longer than the 16 (17' 8" versus 15' 7"). The beam of the two boats are within an inch (6' 4" for the 17, 6' 3" for the 16) but the 16 tapers toward the stern as well as the bow and the 17 is pretty much a rectangle behind the cabin. So the 25" of extra length is all at full width. I don't have hard numbers on height, but you want to use a ladder to work on the 17 when it is on the trailer and I have seen pictures of people reaching into the 16 on the trailer. Another testament to the height difference is that the 17 has a flip up/down motor mount while the 16 just has a spot on the transom for it. Also, I ran acoss a Yahoo group for the 16 and some other user pages for it. Owners generally love them and sail them more aggressively than I guessed. It does have some ballast and a heavy swing keel. I was wrong to say it was more like the A16; it is pretty different from either of the other 2. One guy sails his out to Catalina, among other things.


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## eMKay (Aug 18, 2007)

I have a Siren 17, I like it. It's very light and has a lot of sail though so it's pretty tender. Great in light winds, easy to work on, cabin holds a lot of stuff (I have not tried to use it for it's intended purpose), the cockpit is larger than the Compac or the WWP 15 for sure, but not as big as a daysailer or Sunbird. It seems to be well built but like I said it's pretty tender, it has 145sq/ft of sail for 750lbs, if you compare it to a Compac 16 which weighs 1100lbs and has 120sq/ft of sail area. The Sunbird and Venture 17 are closer to the Siren in specs. From what I read on the yahoo Siren owners group if the Siren heels over too far, the rudder will come out of the water and the boat will turn into the wind. I have not been brave enough to try it yet, but I did have it heeled over pretty far today, farther than I have yet, and in only about 10kts of wind. 

I was considering all the boats you are considering, the reason I bought the Siren was it was available, it was close, and it was cheap. I was looking for an O'day daysailer, Sunbird, Venture 17, Newport 17, Compac 16, and even smaller boats. The Compac 16's I found were really out of my budget but the other boats there were some in my range (under $2000)I paid $1250 for the Siren.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

It's true that excessive heeling will pull the rudder out of the water, and make the boat head up into the wind, but that is pretty well the case with every well-designed sailboat, regardless of what length/weight they are. It is a good thing.


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## eMKay (Aug 18, 2007)

Sailormann said:


> It's true that excessive heeling will pull the rudder out of the water, and make the boat head up into the wind, but that is pretty well the case with every well-designed sailboat, regardless of what length/weight they are. It is a good thing.


That's good to know, but it still won't prevent the boat being knocked over in a sudden gust right? Yesterday I had the boat heeled over farther than I had dared before, in my first few trips out I would let out the mainsheet sooner. I guess I'm getting braver, the boat seemed to heel over then take a set (race car term, that's my other hobby) and stay there, happily tooling along with the gunwale just out of the water. It was exiting...for the short time it lasted before the wind died.


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## bobmcgov (Jul 19, 2007)

eMKay: Most boats, at least well-designed ones, have a balance point near maximum heel but short of dumping. My Buccaneer18 is stable flat, really titchy between flat and 15 degrees, then will ride that rail smoothly. (Then tip over, if you oversheet.) It's a nice dynamic of center-of-gravity moving effectively below the fulcrum, while the effective sail area is reduced and wind force spills off the canvas. Not the fastest way to sail, but fun once your heart settles down.

Steady breezes are rare here, but we had some a week ago & I was able to singlehand with the far rail wet, just like your day, for about two hours. Builds mongo confidence in the boat & your ability to control it. About 10-12 knts seems right for the Bucc. (Hard on the abs, hiking that hard for that long....)

Worst scenario is a hard gust after a lull; when you aren't moving, the rudder has little effect & the boat may not round up into the wind before capsizing. DAMHIKT. That Siren is a cute lil cruiser.


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## eMKay (Aug 18, 2007)

bobmcgov said:


> eMKay: Most boats, at least well-designed ones, have a balance point near maximum heel but short of dumping. My Buccaneer18 is stable flat, really titchy between flat and 15 degrees, then will ride that rail smoothly. (Then tip over, if you oversheet.) It's a nice dynamic of center-of-gravity moving effectively below the fulcrum, while the effective sail area is reduced and wind force spills off the canvas. Not the fastest way to sail, but fun once your heart settles down.
> 
> Steady breezes are rare here, but we had some a week ago & I was able to singlehand with the far rail wet, just like your day, for about two hours. Builds mongo confidence in the boat & your ability to control it. About 10-12 knts seems right for the Bucc. (Hard on the abs, hiking that hard for that long....)
> 
> Worst scenario is a hard gust after a lull; when you aren't moving, the rudder has little effect & the boat may not round up into the wind before capsizing. DAMHIKT. That Siren is a cute lil cruiser.


Good to know, thanks. I did have one 4 hour lesson before I bought my boat (This was on a Precision 15K, nice little boat) and the instructor told me exactly what you just said about lulls, he said "watch the water for a gust coming, and let out the sheets when you see it"


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Hey, look at that - I've got a new avatar!

No, that's not really me; my hull is light blue underneath (but white on top). I bought the Newport 17. The guy who had it is retired, but now works (volunteer part time, I gather) helping restore old wooden boats at the Beaufort maritime museum. He got a Newport 17 that needed some TLC and gave it to her thinking he and his wife might enjoy it, but sailing gave her vertigo (his wife, not the boat  ). It doesn't look brand new by any stretch, but he repaired or replaced anything that had an issue (the list in the ad is pretty through). He had paid $900 when it needed work, put $600 in parts that he tracked (some parts were fabricated using his expertise in woodworking). He started out with the price at $1600 some time ago and had lots of interest but no visitors. He said as far as trailerable boats go, Beaufort/Morehead is mostly a motorboat town, which is pretty obvious riding around. So he lowered his price after it went unsold and he wanted the spot in the yard back. I paid $1200. The trailer is pretty much worth that; it is practically brand new and he built the trailer lights on a removable bar so they have never been in the water. When he was getting the boat to fit properly, he ended up moving it a bit forward, so the tongue is somewhat short (something I wanted).

The arch support makes the cabin seem bigger than most since there is no post in it. Inside, it is bare bones; the cushions were shot, so he got new foam and cut it to shape but had not covered them (I got those and will figure out how to get them covered soon) Outside is pretty bare bones also; all rigging and the main and jib are ready for sailing. There is a new steel cable to lower the new steel keel that has zinc on the leading edge to resist corrosion. New boards for the companionway with two top ones; a rainproof vented one for storage and a no-see-um screen for use at anchor. he also included a new Danforth anchor and a few boating odds and ends.

I will post a new thread within a few days with pictures, which I haven't taken yet. I am hoping to get out and sail soon; probably the first Sunday of September. This weekend I hope to do a dry land dry run of rigging.

The kids are excited but the wife hasn't quite warmed up to the whole idea yet.

I need to put my Snark on Craigslist to trade for an outboard. BTW, my attempt a ocean sailinng in the little Snark could have gone better, but I figured out pretty quickly I was in for a long afternoon and packed it in after a few capsizes (no damage to me or the boat; I was prepared for that possibility).

-Andy


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## danjarch (Jun 18, 2007)

I like your new avatar. Congratulations on your purchase. Hope you and the kids enjoy it.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Congrats , Ive been hoping this quest would end well ,seems like a nice choice ,cant wait to see the pics


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## poltergeist (Oct 26, 2006)

*All RIGHT!*

Congratulations, Andy --

I went back after reading your good news post and read the earlier ad you had quoted from. From the combination, it sounds like you're not only ready to hit the water (always great when you have a new toy), but it also fits your original specs. And cost less than you had originally intended to spend, too. Well done. Hope you and your family enjoy many happy hours on the water.

Where will you be sailing again?

Kurt


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

poltergeist said:


> Congratulations, Andy --
> 
> I went back after reading your good news post and read the earlier ad you had quoted from. From the combination, it sounds like you're not only ready to hit the water (always great when you have a new toy), but it also fits your original specs. And cost less than you had originally intended to spend, too. Well done. Hope you and your family enjoy many happy hours on the water.
> 
> ...


Well, my "home" lake is Jordan; I can get to the ramp there in around half an hour. I can also get to a free ramp at Shearon Harris in under 25 minutes. That latter one isn't really thought of as a sailing lake since Jordan is nearby and bigger, but it is big enough provide an occasional change and often has better fishing (they are both pretty good) which is something I also like to do at the lake. I need to get up to Kerr some also. It's closer to a 2 hour trip (to actually be at a ramp where sailboats typically put in, not just see if from the freeway). 2 hours will also get me to Washington, NC, which is the upper reaches of the Pamlico. 2 and 1/2 hours to New Bern, 3 to Oriental. Those choices should keep me busy for a while; if not, Key Largo is only about 13 hours away. 

Yeah, I am pretty pleased with the choice I made though I don't have water time to back up my expectations yet. I felt incredibly comfortable with the person who sold me the boat; I think he was very honest, more than fair and would likely help remedy anything that came up in my initial sailing. He knows what he is doing and the work he did is pro quality. I have a no frills boat ready to be trailered to and sail in salt water now (not that I will right away; it just speaks to the fact that he had the bar set high enough). Adding lights and other electronics, covering the cushions and putting an outboard on the back (the locking drop down mount is there) are things I can do properly and incrementally. I want to get a motor before I sail; the last thing I want is a dock side fiasco on my first trip. If I don't, I will have two long paddles and the first thing we will do (I have crew available) is paddle out and anchor under bare poles.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Congratulations on buying your boat. I hope that you are able to get out on her soon.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

A friend has a small outboard that he has no use for and has offered it to me, so I should be on the water Sept 2nd (this weekend I will rig just for practice).


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Congrats... and post photos/stories about your first sail out...


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Not an incredibly good picture; twilight, with a phone camera, but proof, sort of...


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## simons'mistral16 (Apr 2, 2012)

Might be waking up a dead thread but I just bought my first own sailboat , I am 22 and sailed when I was younger with my father and have done so again more recently on camping trips using a laser or sunfish.. I Just bought a mistral 16 with cabin, main jib and spinnaker all brand new on a brand new ez-loader trailer ( and I mean never seen water new ) and paid 800$ with no outboard motor. I wont even ask if its a good buy , any ready to sail sailboat under 1000$ is a good catch and this one is clean, have not taken it out yet because its still too cold and without an outboard im afraid to tackle quinte bay ( just off lake ontario on Canada side ) or even the great lake .. What do you think , any advice ... I am excited !!


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## S/V Dutch Treat (Dec 28, 2011)

simons'mistral16 said:


> Might be waking up a dead thread but I just bought my first own sailboat , I am 22 and sailed when I was younger with my father and have done so again more recently on camping trips using a laser or sunfish.. I Just bought a mistral 16 with cabin, main jib and spinnaker all brand new on a brand new ez-loader trailer ( and I mean never seen water new ) and paid 800$ with no outboard motor. I wont even ask if its a good buy , any ready to sail sailboat under 1000$ is a good catch and this one is clean, have not taken it out yet because its still too cold and without an outboard im afraid to tackle quinte bay ( just off lake ontario on Canada side ) or even the great lake .. What do you think , any advice ... I am excited !!


So, have you had it out yet? Or should I say in?


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