# Minimum extended cruising requirements.



## Scott&Rosie (Jan 12, 2013)

Hey 'all. We are new to off shore cruising having done some great lake sailing. We are looking to do some extended cruising from New England te Keys and in the Caribbean. Our eventual goal is to transition to liveaboard in a few years. My question is this: What is the minumum size boat I should entertain for extended cruising in the caribbean with a max crew of five. I would rather have a boat more cabable in weather than anything, and comfort should come next. I'd love to hear anybody's thoughts on the matter. Thanks and Happy Cruising!!!


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## svzephyr44 (Jun 26, 2000)

5 Adults? Children? Are you normal sized (I am 6'6" tall, it makes a difference) Live on the hook? Go to a marina? Most time underway? Or short hops and long stops?


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## Scott&Rosie (Jan 12, 2013)

Hey, thanks for the reply. I'm 6'1", and likely the tallest unless we have a tall visiting passenger. Most cruises would be Rosie and myself, but my two kids would likely come aboard occasionally. Our longest stay away from home wou likely be two months during the summer, with frequesnt stops. Stops would likely encompass 70% hooks and 30% marina stops, give or take. I would say that marina stops may be more frequent at first due to the desire to sight see. Our intention long term is to sell the boat and upgrade for retirementfor liveaboard situation.


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## mdi (Jan 15, 2009)

Scott&Rosie said:


> What is the minumum size boat I should entertain for extended cruising in the caribbean with a max crew of five.


It is not clear what size boats you have sailed on Lake's, so I run the risk of suggesting something you are already quite familiar with. With that in mind I offer 3 basic book suggestions; all 3 can be bought used cheap - Amazon, Abe's Books, etc...:

1. How to Buy the Best Sailboat by Chuck Gustafson

2. Multihull Voyaging by Thomas Firth Jones

3.The Case for the Cruising Trimaran by Jim Brown

All three are a conservative approach to sailboat ownership and cruising. Personally I would not want to be on a sailboat for an extended period of time with others on less than about 37' sailboat. You should be able to get two staterooms in something that size and then there are the salon cushions when added folks are aboard.

But I see many happy people on much much smaller sailboats for years, very satisfied folks. Maybe you need to spend some time chartering at least once, before making a purchase. Experience is a good teacher.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

I think for a trip like that, with that many people, you need a good sized Catamarn to be comfortable for any more than a weekend. I've crammed 5 people on to my little sloop and hot bunked it to Mexico for a few week's, but we were young 20 somethings. Knock the number of people down to 3 adults, and then any 30 something monhull will do. But 5 is a lot. 5 people is a lot to cram in a cockpit or below in weather on a 30 to 40 something mono. Now if it's you and your wife and two adult kids, how Y'all get along is known only by you. Is one of 'em a daughter? I only ask because she may need a little more privacy and water than two son's. Girls will say '"hey that's, that's sexist",....... then they need some privacy to wash three feet of hair. Just say'n. I've cruised extensivly with women and some are saltier than me, but when some of their girlfriends would visit from suburbia, we would make some accomidations beyond our norm. As for a safe weather boat. a 45 Westsail would be a good one. Every time you add one person you add a sh!t load of problems, that much more food, water, gear, bedding, farting, moodyness, the balance of group dynamics, the size of the dinghy to lug everyones landlubb'n a$$ around in. The size of the liferaft and emergancy rashions. If you can afford the 50 something foot mono it would take to accomidate 5 people, may as well go multi. They are more stable, quicker, and provide the 4 heads and 4 staterooms with one on the couch that you'll need to provide everyone with the basic privacy to get along for extended periods. Once you get offshore on a mono and heel over, there is only the low side of the boat to function on, basically cut in half down the middle. On a big cat, you have the whole boat to get out of eachothers way. Even then it will be crowded. Why 5 people? Is it 2 couples and a single dude? bad Idea, is it a couple and three dude guest's, bad Idea. Is it 5 dudes, fun for the weekend, but bad for long term. 5 trained, paid, and disciplined merchant marines with an established chain of command is different than 5 townies stuck on a seemingly at first big sailboat that get's tiny and crammed by day 3. I'm guessing this is you and your significant others dream, and when you sit around talking about it, your freinds say, "I'll go, I wanna come" so basically it will be you and her, and from time to time a guest or two or three, and rarely will they all be able to join you at once. I would say, if you need crew for a passage, take on one extra, some one to keep a watch. Then as I said before, any 30 something with a pilot berth will do.


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## Scott&Rosie (Jan 12, 2013)

Hey Capt Aaron,

Your last senario would be our normal one. I have two girls, yes, you're ght about them...lol. Rosie has three older kids who might occasionally look to come out for a trip and then fly back. So on MOST long trips, it would be just the two of us, maybe a third hand. I have never sailed a CAT with the exception of a small one on fresh water. That would take me a bit out of my comfort zone. Never put one of those over in high weather...

Scott


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

Scott&Rosie said:


> Hey Capt Aaron,
> 
> Your last senario would be our normal one. I have two girls, yes, you're ght about them...lol. Rosie has three older kids who might occasionally look to come out for a trip and then fly back. So on MOST long trips, it would be just the two of us, maybe a third hand. I have never sailed a CAT with the exception of a small one on fresh water. That would take me a bit out of my comfort zone. Never put one of those over in high weather...
> 
> Scott


Well, it took me years of denial before I realized all the advantages of the good sized cat's, their seaworthyness, their comfort, safety, ease of close quarter handling etc. But if they aint for you, they just aint. A 45 foot Westsail is very safe in big seas's, very forgiving, and roomy. I'm still waiting for a bombardment from the women on my comment, but before I'm attacked, I want them to ask them selves if they have a girlfriend from town who would need some slightly more creatuer comforts then they them self as live aboard salts have grown accustom to doing with out. I now some dudes from town with the same needs, hence the gadget boat. That's all I'm saying. Read "Sailing Promise" to get an idea of how well a little Prout can handle the big stuff before you close your mind to the Multihulls..


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## Scott&Rosie (Jan 12, 2013)

I definitely would not close my mind on CATS, though I'm sure it would be a bigger learning curve. Expense is not the biggest issue, but always a factor. Ive always though multis were more expensive.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

scott&rosie said:


> i definitely would not close my mind on cats, though i'm sure it would be a bigger learning curve. Expense is not the biggest issue, but always a factor. Ive always though multis were more expensive.


oh boy are they!!!!!!!!


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## Scott&Rosie (Jan 12, 2013)

.....and you are right. Some women can handle it better than others. It's just true. Some women don't like camping sor reasons of privacy and hygene.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Wow! For once, I may disagree with my friend Aaron.

Before you invest in that monstrous Cat, go pick up the phone and start calling for marinas to house her. You can reverse those number of time at anchor and at marinas. SO you know, we spend more time at anchor than anyone else we have cruised with, and we don't spend those numbers. I would say if you can hit 50-50, you are doing good. TO hit those numbers, you will have to have a watermaker or a large water reserve, you will need a solid way of refurbishing your power (large solar array and batts), and you will need a large holding tank (s). Now, you can make all this work on the large cat, but the costs of putting her in a marina until you do might shock you. Many marinas simply were not built to accomodate wide beam boats (especially in south florida where slips are at a premium). You will either havae to get slips much larger than your boat, be charged for a double slip, or be forced to get a side-tie (T-Head). THe Theads are often the first to go because the view and ability to get on/off are much better. Also, because most theads are twice the legth of most slips (they span them), the marinas love to charge you max money for that slip or not give it to you at all while they wait for the 80 foot Hatteras to come back. 

Now, others can speak more to the availability in the carribean and Bahamas where I suspect you can and will anchor out more than not. But here in the US, especailly on the west coast of FL to the Keys, I speak the truth. I know this because we looked heavily into a Cat before realizing we didn't want the hassle of getting screwed by marinas.

For your intended purpose, I would get a two cabin, 40-50 foot, production sailing boat. If you get a third cabin boat, you are just going to make it your garage or work bench anyways and there are too many tradeoffs in doing many 3 cabin boats around 40 feet (45-50 can do a 3 cabin somewhat comfortable). I would tell the kids that when they come, paradise is never-ending outside, but down below its about 40 feet long. Inside we are all family, deal with it, and don't fart with the hatches closed or pump tampons down the head. Otherwise, your view of paradise will come from the local hotel. By the boat for how you know you are goin gto use it, not the off times of how you might use it. You dont even know for sure how much they will come. Jobs, life, airline travel, etc always have a way of screwing up intentions. so basically, get a production boat: the many hatches, generally faster speed, and open and comfortable living quarters will make this a super boat for your intended area. Which one you get is really based upon your budget and whether you and the wife like SNickers (Hunters), 3 musketeers (Benes), or the World's Finest Chocolate (Catalina).

Brian

PS Pretty much agree with most of the rest of Cpt. Aaron!! I do believe my friend has been on a boat with a woman!!


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## Scott&Rosie (Jan 12, 2013)

Man, I love this site already! I grew up sailing O'Day's between 18 and 25 feet. Just to compare mfg's you mentioned, how would an old O'Day compare with any of them?


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

Ya know, My grandparents up graded to an Oday 30 something with a center cockpit, aft cabin, and me and my sister and an aunt cruised around the Bahamas in it and there was plenty of room, that was two teenagers, an adult women and my grandparents. I think that makes five....ya five. I had almost forgot about that trip till just now. The aunt had the v berth, the sister the couch thing in the main cabin and I had the pilot berth. Which ,Ha ha, is the most comfy on a passage. Of course the Granparents had the aft cabin which had it's own mini head., plenty of room for us up in the oxygen tent. ( the plastic enclosed cockpit.)
But if I had the clams, I'd be in a big cat. That is true about the Marinas, as I never put my sailboat in a Marina I never consider that aspect. My dive boat is in a marina and my neighbor has a cat, I never thought that he may be paying twice what I am.


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## Tallswede (Jul 18, 2012)

Just to run a little counter current from some of the other posters here. A good friend has a 32' Beneteau Oceanis. Now, I know this is not a very big boat but it does have a nice V-berth cabin as well as a roomy aft bunk (the cabin part is not so big though), as well as a roomy settee berth. So a couple with occasional kids and a friend for a short stay is doable. We have done a long weekend with 6 adults aboard with out a problem, allthough if you are someone who needs a lot of privacy, this won't work well. These boats are pretty affordable and sell well when it is time to move up. I would keep this in mind when choosing your boat. 

Kevin


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

I deliverd a 27 foot Benny first to Columbia with two dudes, that makes 3, and we where o.k. A girl would'nt of liked it, nice galley.


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## Scott&Rosie (Jan 12, 2013)

I know O'Day had two versions of their 39 and one which was called the ODay /Hunter 40 which I belive had less than a 5'draft. If an older one could be found, I'm guessing that might fit the bill very well if I could get it right price wise. I'm told they were very stable boats with lots of sail. I know the smaller ones were.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

A cat doesn't have to be expensive, as long as you're not all caught up in the latest boat show/ charter company's shiny wet dream.
A Catalac 9M or Gemini 3000 might be the ticket. Both can be found under $50K, both are easy to handle, and both pack more room and creature comforts than the average 36' monohull. You can't load them as heavily as a mono, but many folks have satisfactorily lived aboard and cruised the caribbean in both for years.

And it can be really nice to have guests at the opposite end of the boat, in the opposite hull.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

bljones said:


> A cat doesn't have to be expensive, as long as you're not all caught up in the latest boat show/ charter company's shiny wet dream.
> A Catalac 9M or Gemini 3000 might be the ticket. Both can be found under $50K, both are easy to handle, and both pack more room and creature comforts than the average 36' monohull. You can't load them as heavily as a mono, but many folks have satisfactorily lived aboard and cruised the caribbean in both for years.
> 
> And it can be really nice to have guests at the opposite end of the boat, in the opposite hull.


Ya, that's all I'm say'n. But for big sea, no worries, tie her off and go below saftey, see you when it's over, make some tea and hold on while you read a book and ride it out, take all that she throw's at ya, a big west sail type fat but double ender high free board full keel to the rudder shoe boat is the ticket.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Wetsnails have to handle weather well- they can't get out of the way of it.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

bljones said:


> Wetsnails have to handle weather well- they can't get out of the way of it.


They run in a big sea better than most sail boats off shore. Most sail boats don't beat the weather out there. The thing about them is, for a new to the big stuff cruiser, they are very forgiving in the messy stuff, when you run in a performance boat, you got to work to stay the course, a fin keel wants to turn into every swell, and you have to steer hard to either side with each chaser, a snail will just float you through it. The Westsnail is a great " bring the family to sea" boat, it gives you time to get used to how it is because it is already used to it. Just my opinion.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

You're right, CA- Westsails are a good big water heavy weather boat. If one's intent is to work down the east coast and then the Bahamas and the caribbean, as the OP has stated, then there's lots of duck-out points, so I'd put less of a premium on weather ability and more on comfort and speed. 
A slow cat is going to be at least 1.5 times as fast as a West Sail, and IMO is more welcoming to newbies- less heel, easier to work on deck, etc.

I am surprised at how civil this thread has remained.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

bljones said:


> You're right, CA- Westsails are a good big water heavy weather boat. If one's intent is to work down the east coast and then the Bahamas and the caribbean, as the OP has stated, then there's lots of duck-out points, so I'd put less of a premium on weather ability and more on comfort and speed.
> A slow cat is going to be at least 1.5 times as fast as a West Sail, and IMO is more welcoming to newbies- less heel, easier to work on deck, etc.
> 
> I am surprised at how civil this thread has remained.


Ya, I only get worked up about anchor's and chain. 
I'm just going on the things he listed, and a good weather boat that was roomy for as much as 5, coupled with his admition of new to off shore called for a big cat. he said he was weary of multi's, so a big snail seamed to me the next best thing. I agree with the less heel, easier work on deck. They do tend do be lightly built. I could probably kick my way out through the bulkhead of my friends new french catamaran, and then there is CD's take on dockage. I was just sitting on the back of a tug boat in Miami harbour a few min. ago, watching cruising sail boats come and go, and ya know what, there all pretty dang good realy. I've alway's been able to get comfy on just about anything that floats. He was actually asking what is the smallest he could get away with. He his wife, occasionaly his 2 daughters. Maybe a 35 foot center cockpit something or other. That aft cabin gives the owners the privacy from the guests and vice versa.


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## mdi (Jan 15, 2009)

Capt.aaron said:


> He was actually asking what is the smallest he could get away with. He his wife, occasionaly his 2 daughters. Maybe a 35 foot center cockpit something or other. That aft cabin gives the owners the privacy from the guests and vice versa.


The O'Day 37 Center is roomy based on comments above; but more than that I would be looking at waterline lengths v. Length overall. Older designs have long LOA but less LWL, generally speaking. So the older you go the more LOA you need to get the same LWL that is in a more recent design.


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