# Red/Brown sails



## ThunderFog (Aug 14, 2006)

Why do some, usually older boats (classics), have redish brown sails? My only two thoughts were:
1) dark colors are more resistant to UV and older work boats whos sails saw a lot of sun, would benefit.

2) Dark sails on work boats don't show stains and dirt.

I have seen these sails on some of the old scallop boats. The scallop boats needed sails because there was a law that prevented harvesting scallops under power.

Thoughts?


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## capttb (Dec 13, 2003)

Called Tanbark for the reasons given in the passage below from a sailmaker who makes such sails. For traditional styled boats it's more to present an "authentic" appaerance.
"Back in the days of cottons sails, some sailcloth was tanned - dipped in tannins, usually derived from tree bark. The process was used to protect the sails from rot, mold and mildew. Nowadays, Dacron is dyed a reddish brown to simulate the 'red sails in the sunset' look. Sail buyers pay a premium for this or any dyed Dacron. There is no analogous protection provided by the dye."


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

That pretty well sums up the history of Tanbark sails, but it does not touch on the fact that when you dye dacron to simulate tanbark cotton sailcloth, you end up with cloth that is a little stretchier (not a good thing) and shorter lived, (dark colors absorb more UV than lighter colors). Tanbark dacron is pretty much an aesthictic thing now days, an affectation meant to impart a historic feel to a modern material.

Jeff


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## ThunderFog (Aug 14, 2006)

Could the stretchiness be caused by the dark color absorbing and holding heat? I know that dacron does perform differently at various temperatures but I am not sure this would be a great enough temp. change to make any difference.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

As I have had it explained to me the increased stretch comes from the way the fibers are treated in order to get them to accept the red dye. From what I gather structural grade polyester does not take dye very well. 

Jeff


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## Dewey Benson (Jun 28, 2006)

Jeff_H said:


> As I have had it explained to me the increased stretch comes from the way the fibers are treated in order to get them to accept the red dye. From what I gather structural grade polyester does not take dye very well.
> 
> Jeff


Indeed it does not accept the dye with out some loss of the hard case on the cloth.

The cloth is a very heavy one and is not available in lighter wieghts. It is quite stiff enough to hold shape in very heavy air. It is of no interest to racers or those interested in getting the tweakiest windward ability in light air.

Tanbark are very servicible sails, there is not a hint of delicacy about them.
Good heavy material lasts a long time. Not suitable for modern racer/cruisers.

Dewey


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I would say that traditional watercraft need higher quality, low stretch cloth than performance sailors. With heavy cruiser's typically higher drag to stability, having low stretch sail cloth can mean significantly less heeling and weather helm. 

I respectfully disagree with Dewey on the durability issue. When this topic came up a few years back I spoke to quite a few sailmakers about its durability. There was universal agreement that tanbark cloth was a novelty cloth that has significantly less of a lifespan that an equal weight white dacron. 

Jeff


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## Dewey Benson (Jun 28, 2006)

Jeff_H said:


> I would say that traditional watercraft need higher quality, low stretch cloth than performance sailors. With heavy cruiser's typically higher drag to stability, having low stretch sail cloth can mean significantly less heeling and weather helm.
> 
> I respectfully disagree with Dewey on the durability issue. When this topic came up a few years back I spoke to quite a few sailmakers about its durability. There was universal agreement that tanbark cloth was a novelty cloth that has significantly less of a lifespan that an equal weight white dacron.
> 
> Jeff


LOL! Jeff,

thats kind of funny! Need higher quality? The concern for asthetics is the primary goal of Tanbark sails. It would be nice to enhance the windward abilitys of say, a Sea Witch ketch (a typical candidate round here for the stuff) but it aint gonna happen short of redisigning the vessel which would then no longer be a Sea Witch Ketch.

Durability can be expressed in a couple of ways, Longevity, or brute strenth.
I cannot speak too much of the longevity as I have not experienced owning Tanbark sails personally for a period of time (or any period whatsoever).
The cloth is only available in the heaviest of weights, damn near the same as a storm jibs. Pretty crappy set in winds of less than 3 knots. I can attest personally to the brute strenth. Fairwinds Marine Northeaster 30 Between San Nicholaus Island and San Miguiel Island. Force 10 (mid 50's) gusting to 11. The tanbark working sails ( high probability of low useage from previous owner) not only performed nicly but upon later examination where not in the least bit "blown out".

Sure it ain't for you. But there is a loyal cadre of woodie guy's who spit on fiberglass and aren't interested in your uberlight sails.

There is nothing wrong with either opinion.

By the by, a funny little vignette associated with that little blow. "Pugnatious" the Northeaster 30 sailing out of Santa Barbra had her vhf scanning during that time and picked up a coast guard cutter comunicating with the shore base. "Theres only one idiot on our radar out here and we are heading over to check him out" the cutter opined. Mike the owner of "Pug" shot back "coast guard cutter I'm that idiot, and unless you need some assitance you needent bother". LOL!

Dewey


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Dewey,

You forget that while I do own a glass boat today, I also sail and have owned traditional wooden sailing craft (a 1949 folkboat, and a 1939 Stadel Cutter) and actually originallly looked into tanbark for replacement sails for the Stadel Cutter. She actually had a couple tanbark sails which did not hold up that well. 

But beyond that, in talking to owners of boats with somewhat traditional designs who have purchased higher quality sails for boats such as H-28's, Westsail 32's, Tayana 37's, and the like, the biggest sailing improvement that they say that they have made to their boats was to buy decently cut, lower stretch sails. The benefit that they most often reported was being heeling less, bether weatherliness, and getting by with less sail exposed than would have needed with their stretchier sails. I still say that boats whose sail plan and hull form make good performance difficult, generally benefit more from good cruising sails (and I don't mean gosimer racing sails) than more modern boats which can often get by with mediocre sails due to their more easily driven hulls and better sail shaping gear.

Respectfully,
Jeff


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## Dewey Benson (Jun 28, 2006)

Jeff_H said:


> Dewey,
> 
> You forget that while I do own a glass boat today, I also sail and have owned traditional wooden sailing craft (a 1949 folkboat, and a 1939 Stadel Cutter) and actually originallly looked into tanbark for replacement sails for the Stadel Cutter. She actually had a couple tanbark sails which did not hold up that well.
> 
> ...


Jeff,

Nooo I didn't forget. One cannot forget what one has never known.

When you were talking with sailmakers did you speak with any who might have some experience with the tanbark sails? Lets see, you are somwhere in the chesapeke area, yes? How about Bacon and Assoc. they may have some inkling of the longevity of Tanbark sails.

Agreed, replaceing old blown out sails is definatly one of the biggest improvments one can make in improving the performance of a sailing vessel, and it wont matter a wit what color the sails you are replacing were.

Or for that matter what color the replacments are. The largest detriment ot the tanbark is that they are too heavy for most areas prevalent winds.

Iv'e never owned a woodie just been aboard a bunch. Know the folkboat well, have seen some Stadell designs. What manner of craft was the Stadell Cutter? Beamy, narrow, transome style, where built? How long had the sails been on her when you purchased her?

Dewey


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Whew Dew.....

Lets see here.....I am sorry that I used the word 'forgot' rather than 'perhaps you are not aware'; I thought that you and I had a previous discussion on owning and sailing traditional watercraft. Mea Culpa. 

Anyway, to touch on the essense of your your questions....

While I currently live and sail on the Cheaspeake, I have sailed up and down the U.S. Atlantic Seaboard. I owned the Stadel Cutter during the years that I lived and sailed in Southwest Florida. 

Just as a minor point, at least in the US Tanbark is available in pretty lightweight cloths. Some of the gaff rigged Herreshoff 12 1/2's went with tanbark sails in the same weight dacron as the rest of the H 12 1/2's white dacron. One source of the 'short-lived' comments were the sailmakers for and boat owners with the tanbark sails in that fleet. 

To address the source of my comments on the durability of tanbark cloth, my primary sourse was collection of conversations with sailmakers, both traditional and modern, racing and cruising, including a loft that bills iteself as producing sails for offshore cruisers and whose ad at the time showed a set of tanbark sails, for an acquaintance who was looking for tanbark sails for his Tayana 37. We both made the calls and had the chats independently. He was planning a circumbnav and so wanted durability. Our original hypothisis was that the dye would improve UV screening and increase the fabric's lifespan. When we finished the conversations with perhaps a dozen or more sailmakers, including a conversation with sail handlers at Bacon in which he asked, what was their experience with Tanbark (and other died sails), universally we found the same response that dying dacron shortened the cloths useful lifespan. 

My own most graphic experience with dyed dacron was a sail made with alternating stripes of blue and white. The white stripes were in good shape but the blue stripes were visibly more blown out and sunrotted. 

The Stadel Cutter hull was as miniature version of the mid-19th century N.Y. pilot schooner 'George Steers'. She was a moderate beam, as full a keel a boat as a boat can have, near plum stem, elliptical transom, screw and rivet fastened, cedar over oak hulled, teak decked, mahogany cabin sided cutter built by Joel Johnson in Connecticut for a retired sea captain in 1939. The tanbark sails were purchased by the prior owner who lightly used the boat, making them roughly 7 years old but we rarely used them because they were not in as good shape as the earlier white dacron sails. The tanbark sails on the boat were built by a traditional sailmaker in Maine and my investigation of replacement sails was with both conventional sailmakers in Tampa, as well as sailmakers specializing in traditional watercraft in New England. 

Jeff


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

The only real advantage I can see of Tanbark colored sails for a cruising boat is that they are a bit more visible in fog and some other conditions than are white sails. Other than that, and the obvious aesthetic appeal, I see no point in getting them.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Just as Sailingdog quoted above..
A lot of people go with tanbark sails for the simple reason is that they show up better than white sails do during the day. Try SAR duties and white sails look just like white caps. Whereas tanbark or any other color shows up better than white...


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

JeffH is absolutely right about tanbark sails in terms of durability. They are pretty, but in an apples to apples comparison (similar weight heavy white dacron vs. tanbark), tanbark will not last as long or fare as well. Still, if I had the right older boat, I might opt for dark sails purely for aesthetic reasons.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Wow...what a bump. Expect hall monitor chastisement shortly...

However, now that we are here, I am seriously considering an oddball colour for my steel hulk IF there is no penalty on strength. I am thinking of having both a new main and a reefable staysail cut for offshore weather, and while the boat is cream coloured with a green cove stripe, I would not be adverse to having a bright orange staysail or a orange top to my main (only the deepest reef needing to be visible in my typical safety scenarios of being visible against greybeards from commercial ships or SAR aircraft!)

Another idea (for me) and perhaps a more logical and certainly cheaper one is to paint my boat's name in yellow on a black square with a bright orange surround on the roof of my pilothouse.

Regarding the UV issue, I find the simple expedient of sail covers works wonders.


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Good idea, Val.
You'll probably remember my suggesting this previously in another discussion. International orange is used for rafts and other lifesaving gear just for it's visibility; it is not, in and of itself, a signal indicating distress. The peak of the sails would be more than ample for the purpose.

Whatever the other merits of white sails, they are very poorly visible in any kind of a seaway. It is ironic that sailors are as style conscious about using white as some are for using tanbark. Certainly a wedge of international orange could be applied in much the same manner we do insignia to other parts of the sail.

As with most materials synthetic, the color must be a result of the manufacturing process, and not died afterwards, for any longevity to be expected. When we start discussing color-impregnated dacron we're talking about what size production run would be necessary to make it cost effective for sailmakers to purchase it from DuPont versus dieing it in smaller production runs.

I don't expect to see much more in the way of orange, or other high visibility, colors on sails soon, any more than I expect to see masts universally painted black. Utility seems to take a back seat to style in these areas. What's with that?


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

This topic probably deserves a separate thread, since we're straying away from the old tanbark discussion, but I like the thinking that Val and Sailaway mention here regarding more visible sail colors. I don't think it's particularly critical for most coastal/weekend/daysailing, but I can see the benefit for off-shore passagemaking and SAR. 

One idea I've kicked around for some time was to investigate the possibility of having a storm trysail made of heavy dacron in a blaze orange color (or whatever color is considered most visible, e.g. fluorescent green?). If all sailors made this request, maybe sailmakers could persuade DuPont to run some heavy weight dacron in this color expressly for the purpose of making storm sails. Perhaps it would eventually become the sport and industry standard for storm sails, particularly if a group like ORC got behind the idea and made it a requirement. I recognize there are some strength/longevity issues that arise from dying the dacron, but given the weight of stormsails and their infrequent application, neither of these issues should be a problem.


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## TSteele65 (Oct 19, 2006)

Not a bad idea, really. I've often wondered why this hasn't been done - could it be a Coast Guard issue?


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## Sapperwhite (Oct 21, 2006)

JohnRPollard said:


> This topic probably deserves a separate thread, since we're straying away from the old tanbark discussion, but I like the thinking that Val and Sailaway mention here regarding more visible sail colors. I don't think it's particularly critical for most coastal/weekend/daysailing, but I can see the benefit for off-shore passagemaking and SAR.
> 
> One idea I've kicked around for some time was to investigate the possibility of having a storm trysail made of heavy dacron in a blaze orange color (or whatever color is considered most visible, e.g. fluorescent green?). If all sailors made this request, maybe sailmakers could persuade DuPont to run some heavy weight dacron in this color expressly for the purpose of making storm sails. Perhaps it would eventually become the sport and industry standard for storm sails, particularly if a group like ORC got behind the idea and made it a requirement. I recognize there are some strength/longevity issues that arise from dying the dacron, but given the weight of stormsails and their infrequent application, neither of these issues should be a problem.


You're not the only one thats thought of it John, they make 'em.

















Cruising direct adverts orange head panels and "built in" radar reflectors, 9.5oz cloth.
http://www.cruisingdirect.com/StormJib.htm

I'm sure there are other options out there though


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

JRP-

Just FYI, the Gale Sails are white with a red sleeve to go over the furled headsail.  At one of the sailing clubs I used to be a member of, the storm sails were all red or orange.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

Hey, that's great! Thanks for showing/mentioning a few examples.

I've cracked open quite a few storm sail bags, just for quick inspection, and never seen one made from a bright color. I guess these sails get so little (if any) use that they don't get replaced/upgraded very often. But for someone ordering new storm sails, it's good to know options exist for high-visibility sails.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

JRP-

If you do get colored sails, you might want to get them in slightly heavier material than you would with white sails, since I believe the colored cloth isn't quite as strong. Since they're storm sails, the heavier weight of the material shouldn't really matter in terms of their function...


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## heinzir (Jul 25, 2000)

For what it's worth, the 5.3 oz tanbark sails on my 23' cutter are still going strong after 20+ years. I recently had them inspected by a sailmaker who said they were still in great shape.

Henry
Chiquita


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## christyleigh (Dec 17, 2001)

But Henry..... That's because the sun only shines 3 months of the year waaaay up there in Minnesota   Just kidding (although it is a factor) because I get to say that to soooo... few... people.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

And they only sail for a week, in the middle of July, when the ice finally breaks.


christyleigh said:


> But Henry..... That's because the sun only shines 3 months of the year waaaay up there in Minnesota   Just kidding (although it is a factor) because I get to say that to soooo... few... people.


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## heinzir (Jul 25, 2000)

Point taken on the sunshine, but we do manage to cram more sailing into those few months than you more thin-blooded sailors do year round!

Henry
Chiquita


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## tojaso (Apr 3, 2006)

Well fellas, I have really enjoyed this thread. But I have made up my mind. I am going with tanbark. We live aboard our 42' steel Gaff Ketch built in 68. I have been kicking around the idea of a new tanbark dress for her and I have decided to hell with it, I am getting 'em..We will see how long they last. The current mainsail is VERY heavy, so I am not really concerned about the weight, this beast doesn't like light air anyway. As far as strong, that is exactly what we need, I think. There are some really long passages in our future and I just LOVE the look of those reddish sails. Now all I have to do is figure out who to get them from.


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## poopdeckpappy (Jul 25, 2006)

Tojaso, look into Northsail North Cloth Oceanus before you commit


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## adru (Oct 18, 2008)

Just in case you missed this thread...
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/general-discussion-sailing-related/54725-keep-turning-left-how-good.html


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## Brian (Sep 7, 2015)

It is said that the Red Sails of Cornish Pilchard boats arose from the fact that the sailcloth was steeped in fish guts. The fish oil acted both as a preservative and waterproofer of the blood in the fish guts also gave that familiar dark red colour to the cloth when it was subsequently dried.


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## PaulinVictoria (Aug 23, 2009)

My new boat has bright red sails


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

Just for the history buff. the fish oil,and the tannin from acorns and bark treated the flax sail. The ocher in the recipe filled the weave and gave the sail its distinctive colour so you could tell from a distance where the vessel hailed from. Blue stone (copper sulphate crystals) was the treatment for linen gill nets until nylon came out mid '50's .My job while Dad slept .(drift net at night) Thane's main an miz were 10 0z tanbark made by Carol Hasse when she was an apprentice in San Diego.


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## capttb (Dec 13, 2003)

> My new boat has bright red sails


Dyed in salmon guts instead of Cornish anchovies ?


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## Delirious (Dec 16, 2001)

Had an ATN Gale Sail (sleeved trisail that slips over a furled headsail) that was orange and white. Worked very well the few times we needed it.

My current sailboat has a tanbark sail (Super Sailmakers of Ft. Lauderdale) that has held up well. It's a gaff so I can accomidate "aging" stretch by adjusting the throat vs. peak tension. It's hardly a racing rig, anyway.

I have had three other sailboats that sported tanbark. One by Gambrel & Hunter of Camden, Maine and that was a thing of beauty. I did not notice it deteriorated any faster than white dacron - but then we have a limited season and our sails spend a lot of time covered. 

You have to have sunlight to have UV damage. Tanbark makes mildew less noticable so may have an advantage hereabouts. Upstate NY is not Southern Florida.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

Any colour in a sail blocks the penetration of UV and increases its resistance to UV damage.


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## ajoliver (Feb 23, 2007)

Here is the Vets For Peace just-rebuilt beautiful Golden Rule, 
the original peace ship . .

Tan-barking was donated by Rolly Tasker Sails. Thanks !!

See our web site & face book page for many more photos.


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## ajoliver (Feb 23, 2007)

Hmmm, let try again for that photo . .


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

Brent Swain said:


> Any colour in a sail blocks the penetration of UV and increases its resistance to UV damage.


Absolutely true and correct.
Dacron polyester is 'solution dyed', meaning the dye is in the chemical mixture before the filament is formed. Once a polyester filament is formed it wont take on any 'normal' dye.

White dacron polyester is most easily damaged by UV exposure because 
1. there is very little dye/colorant in the solution mixture
2. the lack of dye (colorant) allows the UV to deeply penetrate into the filament/yarns --- very much like 'fiber optics' effects.
3. Navy/Black is the most stable vs. UV.

The bad thing about '*tanbark*' is that commonly its now only available in lightweight 4 oz./sq. yd material; therefore, only useful for small boats or light-weight sails for larger boats.

500 years from now some archeologist will dig up a pair of polyester double knit trousers from a landfill, wash them, and find there won't be much degradation to the fabric, the color wont be changed/faded at all since they were carted off to the trash a half-millenium ago. Most likely they will be gawd-awful bell-bottomed pants from a 1970s 'leisure suit'. Everything else in that 500 year old landfill will be decomposed ... all except for the garments made of dacron or terylene polyester.


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## ajoliver (Feb 23, 2007)

Hey Rich - 
The tan-bark sails on the Golden Rule are 8 oz. cloth.


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## Delezynski (Sep 27, 2013)

Not sure if any one has brought it up yet, but the BIG added benefit for ME, is I get bad headaches from the white sails on sunny days!










Greg


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

If you actually sail at night you will notice the night vision is improved with tanbark. In the far future ,when ocean bottoms are drying out nomadic wanderers will marvell at the wonderous material of legend. The dacron will be valuable .tanbark moreso because of its rarity among the ancient wrecks


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