# Consult Needed on Potential Boat Purchase



## danielgoldberg (Feb 9, 2008)

I have a very good friend who is contemplating buying a boat, and has asked me to help him with the process, what to buy, etc. I have a good sense of what I think he should do generally, but it never hurts get varied opinions. So, I'm putting this out there to see what folks think. Here are the parameters:

1. Looking to spend no more than $150,000.

2. Coastal cruising only, and really limited at that. Pretty much daysailing, weekending and a week or two here and there for summer vacations, all in relatively protected water. Essentially Long Island Sound, with some trips out east to Block Island, Martha's Vineyard, Newport, Nantucket, etc.

3. It's a couple in their early 40's, with two children, a boy (9) and girl (7).

4. They do NOT want a fixer-upper. It's important that the boat be low maintenance. He's willing to putter and stuff like that, but he doesn't want to spend his time bringing a boat back to life, or dealing with an old girl who needs lots of attention. He wants to use the boat, not work on the boat.

5. They're looking in the 35' range; could go up or down a few feet. They have some experience. Not tons, but some. They recently came off of a fractional ownership contract where they used a Catalina 350. I think they can handle the boat just fine, but they might be a tad behind the curve in terms of maintaining and managing a cruising boat (which probably puts them in the same category as 90% of all boaters).

6. The wife is willing and a very good sport, but my sense is that if she's not comfortable, she won't be happy, and that a strictly camping type situation will not portend a long life for this venture.

7. They're English, so they talk funny. Not sure what that has to do with the boat they should pick, but thought I'd throw it out there. 

8. They are open to buying either new or used, but keep in mind number 4 above, so if used, it needs to be a pretty recent vintage, and in good shape.

Thoughts in terms of brand, new/used, size, etc.? I have my own views, but I'll keep my powder dry to see what others think before posting where I'm likely to steer them.


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## WouldaShoulda (Oct 7, 2008)

danielgoldberg said:


> 6. The wife is willing and a very good sport...


I'm interested in a trade!!

For that kind of limited cruising, just like here in the Bay, I don't know why anyone would need anything larger than 32'.

I like the Catalina 310/309. well under budget.

Now, cruising to Florida or Bermuda, sure, 40+ feet of limited or off-shore build is a must.

Yeah, I like that 309!!


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## danielgoldberg (Feb 9, 2008)

WouldaShoulda said:


> I'm interested in a trade!!
> 
> For that kind of limited cruising, just like here in the Bay, I don'y know why anyone would need anything larger than 32'.
> 
> I like the Catalina 310/309. well under budget.


I liked your post better before the edit. It almost made me spit coffee out of my nose when I read it!


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Catalina 36. One of the best boats they have made. It is no longer in production, but they can pick up a MKII for less than the numbers they discussed. It is a coastal boat, but many, many people have cruised all over with them. It is an open arrangement (buy this one) where the table folds up against the bulkhead, and gives the feel of more space than what it really is. It has its own nav station, though small. It has a dedicated TV and entertainment cabinet. It has a head accesbile from owners and salon. The V is a bit small, but better than the 350. It has no teak on the outside. It has a nice cockpit for entertaining. It is a very forgiving boat, but still performs very well. It has a great lazarette, given the space below. It has all the amenities of home. They will hav no problem singlehanding this boat and should their aspirations of longer trips ever change, it can take them there. I would take this boat to Bermuda - have you had any race with you?

I feel this boat is heads and tails better than a C350... heads and tails better. I know both quite well. In my opinion, in a production boat, there is not a better made boat under 36 feet. Catalina did away with it (official word) because they wanted to redesign a boat (what would become the 350) to be more accessible for he new systems (generators and ac's are a pain to put on this boat). In my opinion, though, they quit making htis boat AND the 380 (a better cruising boat than the 36) because the profit margin on them was too slim. My opinion... Gerry nor Frank told me that.

The negatives of the boat are:

1) Less storage than the next step up (the 380).
2) Head does not have a seperate shower stall. This requires wiping down the head some after use.
3) Generator is a pain to put in. I can discuss with them/someone if they ever want to know specifics of how and where to do it.
4) Tankage is limited.
5) The aft berth is cramped (for their kids). It requires crawling over each other to get out.

Given their stated plans, I do not think any of the negatives of the boat will be a deterrent. It is a great boat and will be a classic that should hold its value for a long time. They should be able to pick up a late model 36 in the low 100s, giving them a nice $$ left over for any upgrades (electronics or genny, should they wish).

If they want to have more storage, a seperate stall, a generator, and better sleeping quarters (for both), the 380 is my next choice. That is what we cruised/lived on. It is actually the old Morgan 38 hull - and a med disp heavy cruiser. They would be able to pick one up for the numbers discussed. It would be a better cruiing boat and more comfortable boat than the 36. However, if they are fairly sure that they will not cruise in the boat, I would probably stick with the 36 and save some coin.

I can answer any and all questions on the 380 as I know it well. It is not in any way related to the 387. The 380 is also out of production but a late model can be picked up. It too will hold its value well.

Let me know if I can help, Dan.

Brian

Here is a REALLY nice one:

2005 Catalina MK II Sloop Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

another, does not seem quite as nice (but this is just pics)

2004 Catalina MK II Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

I have seen nothing like a REAL SHOWER stall to help with that camping feeling  

BUT that seems to mean about 38 Ft


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

I just added some links on my post above.

On the 36, it certainly does not feel like camping. I find the arrangement a more traditional arrangement. The baot is very comfortable for 4 down below (or for 5 and a child running around on the floor... ask me how I know).

But what is more important is that the boat preforms well. She is sure footed and easy to single hand. She almost turns within her own wake. She is a relatively shallow draft. 

I honestly love this boat. i would not be suprised to see these boats appreciate in value over time... or at least hold their own. I will tell you that this was the first boat I took mom and dad to when we were shopping. These prices have stayed the same or apparently increased a bit since then. We were looking at a 04 for around 100k, and a fresh water boat fairly well equipped. 

This boat will be fun and keep them safe. She has no real issues I am aware of. It has a very large owners group and they worked out all the bugs long ago. It is the kind of boat you will buy and keep until your destinations become further reaching.

Brian


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## djodenda (Mar 4, 2006)

I've been aboard this one:

2007 Catalina 36 MK II Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

and it is almost brand new. The dealer said that the couple who bought the boat had never sailed before and was afraid of it.

It says "Sale Pending", and is listed a bit more than you were thinking, but it is in great shape.

David


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

Hate to appear to have a one track mind, but gosh darn it, what they need is a Gemini 105mc. Low maintenance, price is right for one 4-5 years old; certainly hard to 'camp' on a queen sized bed in the master cabine with a full galley, an honest to god bathroom including shower - and separate cabins for each of the kids. Hard not to be comfortable living and sailing flat.

Nothing much to fix, off the shelf the crew of Slapdash (the slapmobile is 2/3 of the way around the world on their 5 year old boat.


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## djodenda (Mar 4, 2006)

I have a Catalina 30 now, and my son is 12 and my daughter 15. We last for a week on the boat before driving each other crazy.

Of course, I am thinking about a new boat, but have looked around quite a bit, and have come to the conclusion, right or wrong, that if we significantly want to increase comfort, we would need a boat with two aft cabins.

As it is now, the kids don't want to share sleeping quarters, so that means that Mark winds up in the quarterberth, and someone sleeps on the folded-down table.

So once people start going to sleep, everything shuts down.

So I've quit looking at boats in the 34-36 foot range, because I don't think the extra comfort justifies the expense.

Still though, I do like the Catalina 36!

David


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

djodenda said:


> I've been aboard this one:
> 
> 2007 Catalina 36 MK II Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
> 
> ...


I am assuming these people are on the East COast, so I did not list any west coast boats.

Did you like the boat and layout, David? What were your thoughts of the 36 (not particularly this one) in geneal? Just curious if others share my thoughts of the boat.

Brian


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

djodenda said:


> I have a Catalina 30 now, and my son is 12 and my daughter 15. We last for a week on the boat before driving each other crazy.
> 
> Of course, I am thinking about a new boat, but have looked around quite a bit, and have come to the conclusion, right or wrong, that if we significantly want to increase comfort, we would need a boat with two aft cabins.
> 
> ...


I think we posted at the same time.

You will probably want a C42 for that. Maybe a Catalina 40... but I think the 42 may be the better boat for a 3 cabin layout. Many dissagree and like the 40 better. The 40 is the better performer and very sure footed. However, the 3 cabin maximizes the living space and minimizes the cabin space (if that makes sense). Ask Johnrpollard about his thoughts there.

At least on the 36, you could easily fold down the stbd table for a berth every night. Not a perfect arrangement, but you should ask yourself how long your son will be sailing with you and if you are going to be keeping the boat after they leave. It seems that you only have 3 more years to worry about it. I would probably make them tough it out and buy the boat that was good for you and your wife and daughter - as she is more longterm a part of your sailing.

If you really want a great boat, I will say that the 400 is outstanding. It is like a big 380 or really big 36. We found a workaround with our kids for the sleeping arrangements that might work for you and your son/daughter until he goes off to college:










It still manages to give them some privacy. They will also have their own head (or your daughter will have her own head and the rest of you have the master... smile).

We added cabinets going down each side of the V and some bookshelves which has really added to the liveability of the V for the kiddos.

You might also consider getting into a catamaran. It will give you the berths you want. Cost may be a factor, though. I am not very familiar with teh Gemini, but Chuckles really likes it and speaks highly of it.

Take care,

Brian


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## djodenda (Mar 4, 2006)

Brian:

I liked the layout of the boat.. It looked clean and modern down below. The plastic was still on the cushions! It had everything you'd need for PNW cruising.

I like the lack of outside teak. I'm done with teak. 

Typical "Catalina Concept" Lots of space above and down below.

I'm on my third Catalina now. It seems like they understand what I'm looking for.

Really a shame about the present owners situation. The dealer seemed sad about it too. He took them out sailing quite a bit, but they just couldn't get comfortable.

I like the lack of outside teak. I'm done with teak. 

Personally, that boat is way out of my price range. I'm pretty handy and could work with an older one....

Still though, I wonder if it's big enough to make that much of a difference....

David


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

djodenda said:


> Brian:
> 
> I liked the layout of the boat.. It looked clean and modern down below. The plastic was still on the cushions! It had everything you'd need for PNW cruising.
> 
> ...


Get an older one, but stay with the MKII. You can join the owners group to work through the mods made on the later models that would help on the early MKII's. I think they swiched to MKII in 98... but I may be thinking of a different model.

You should be able to pick up a 36 for close to 100... even if you have to ship it there. Unfortunately, the 36 will do little to fix your current issues until your son goes to college. The stbd coffeee table and its ease to fold down is the only plus. They certainly will not like crawling over each other in the aft berth.

Brian


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## djodenda (Mar 4, 2006)

I talked my way aboard a chartered Gemini 105MC last summer. Seems like a great layout for us.

Still a cost issue, though.. and a berth that wide is hard to get around here.

You're exactly right.. we're thinking about the situation being short-term. Don't know how long we'll be sailing all together, when Hope heads off to college.

That's another reason I'm thinking about keeping the 30. It's just right for the Admiral and me, and Mark is pretty happy in the quarterberth.

I've looked at the 42, and not a 400... Budget issues again, although the oldest ones are coming down in price. Moorage becomes and even bigger problem. Really don't know if I want a boat that big, frankly.

Still, though.. keeping an eye on the prices and seeing where they are going...

Didn't think about folding down the table for a starboard berth...

David


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

They are afterall on Long Island Sound where the summers are light air and the spring and fall can really pound you. While Catalinas offer a lot of room for the dollar, they are not exactly great sailing boats across a wide wind range. If they are interested in a boat that has a great interior layout and sails well and that they can hone their skills on and I had to make a couple recommendations I would suggest either a Dehler 36 (excellent build quality and layout) or a Beneteau 36.7. 

Jeff


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## CrazyRu (May 10, 2007)

One masted "Freedom" from 90-s. Maintenance free, easy to sail, safe, plush interior.


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## djodenda (Mar 4, 2006)

Jeff:

I looked at a Beneteau 36.7 last summer as well. What attracted me was the three-cabin layout.

Looked fast and fun to sail.

As soon as I went down below, It was all over. The cabin interior seemed cheap and overly spartan. I knew the Admiral would never go for it.

Barely enough storage for fenders, etc in the lockers, as so much space was taken up be the aft cabins.

The aft cabins were plenty big for our kids, though. 

David


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## sahara (Dec 15, 2006)

Gee, within your friends price range is an Able 34 that Morris Yachts is listing in Maine. A lovely Chuck Paine design, handcrafted by a fine boatyard. They also have acouple of small Morris's that could fit the bill.

I like Catalina's, don't get me wrong, but an Able or Morris is special. They should at least look at the website.

They might also consider the CS's, I think Maine Sail has a CS36 that is very nice.


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## danielgoldberg (Feb 9, 2008)

CrazyRu said:


> One masted "Freedom" from 90-s. Maintenance free, easy to sail, safe, plush interior.


I just came off a single-masted Freedom, a Freedom 45. I loved that boat. But for these guys, a Freedom probably is too old, and would need more love and care than they would prefer. But that's an interesting thought on which I hadn't really focused.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

If they are English, doesn't it have to be a twin keel boat with a kerosene stove onboard? (G)


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## danielgoldberg (Feb 9, 2008)

Jeff_H said:


> They are afterall on Long Island Sound where the summers are light air and the spring and fall can really pound you. While Catalinas offer a lot of room for the dollar, they are not exactly great sailing boats across a wide wind range. If they are interested in a boat that has a great interior layout and sails well and that they can hone their skills on and I had to make a couple recommendations I would suggest either a Dehler 36 (excellent build quality and layout) or a Beneteau 36.7.
> 
> Jeff


I love ya Jeff! I've heard many criticisms of Catalinas, but this is the first time I've heard someone state they are not suitable for Long Island Sound sailing for a family looking for some low key fun and comfort on the water. 

I mean this very respectfully, and I don't mean to hijack my own thread, but for what use do you think Catalinas are suitable? Or do you think they simply are not good boats for anything? Again, I mean it as a serious question, not at all taking a shot at you (I have tremendous respect for you, and have for a long time, going way back to the Cruising World BB days).


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I'm gonna second the Gemini 105 MC.


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## CrazyRu (May 10, 2007)

danielgoldberg said:


> a Freedom probably is too old, and would need more love and care than they would prefer.


I don't want to hijack a tread, but why do you think that "Freedom" needs more care than any 10 y.o. boat? Was it because your experience with your boat? From my experience with older "Freedoms" it seems like they can tolerate abuse for awhile. I was on 25 y.o. boat once with factory installed mast. I mean, they never pull it out.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

Daniel, sorry about the thread hijack below. But to contribute to your original question, I happen to think the couple you describe is a perfect fit for a mid-30 foot Catalina or Beneteau. These don't sound like fanatical sailors that are looking to eek every knot of boatspeed out of their hull/sails. They strike me more as the sort of folks that will sail whenever there's a fair breeze, and simply motor when the wind gets too light. Every now and then.



djodenda said:


> ...Of course, I am thinking about a new boat, but have looked around quite a bit, and have come to the conclusion, right or wrong, that if we significantly want to increase comfort, we would need a boat with two aft cabins....


David, you and I are in the same boats. We both own +/- 30 footers, with multiple kids. Your two are a bit older than my three. We wrestle with the same issues. For exactly the reason you mentioned (need for two aft-cabins), the Catalina 42 three-cabin version is on our short-list if we do decide to upgrade.

CD makes a good point, how much longer will the kids be with us? My wife and I consider our current boat to be pretty tight for our family but ideally-sized for the two of us. It's the sort of boat we could see ourselves keeping indefinitely. But alas, there are these intermediate years where it would be nice to have more room, especially so the kids can bring friends along.

We haven't come up with a good solution for that problem. One whacky idea we have is to get a second, smaller boat that the kids can sail on their own. One with a few bunks, a head with holding tank, and maybe a small inboard diesel. Then we'd get rid of or moth-ball it when they're off in college, and we would still have the boat we really like for ourselves.

But something like a C42 sure would be nice....


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Jeff_H said:


> They are afterall on Long Island Sound where the summers are light air and the spring and fall can really pound you. While Catalinas offer a lot of room for the dollar, they are not exactly great sailing boats across a wide wind range. If they are interested in a boat that has a great interior layout and sails well and that they can hone their skills on and I had to make a couple recommendations I would suggest either a Dehler 36 (excellent build quality and layout) or a Beneteau 36.7.
> 
> Jeff


Jeff,

I have been on the 36.7 and NO WAY would that work with my kids. I found it to be a slim little rocket that would be great to sail around as a daysailor, but nothing I would want to spend any time on just me and the wife... much less with the kids. Honestly, I would buy a Hunter or a Oceanus series Bene before the 36.7.

We have a guy in our marina that has one. He came to me about a month ago to buy ANOTHER sailboat. He said he simply cannot get his wife comfortable on the bene and wants a boat to race with and another that is comfortable for him and his wife.

Regardeing the Dehler, I have no first hand experience so I will take your word for it.

Brian


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## btrayfors (Aug 25, 2006)

Your English friend, with your help, has posed a very, very tough question.

With a max budget of $150K

and

a desire to acquire a boat in the 35' +/- range, in very good condition

and

intends to use boat only for inland and very limited coastal cruising

this is an extremely tough question.

Why?

*Because there are literally thousands of boats on the market which could fit this bill nicely!*

$150K for a 35-footer is a lot. He should be able to find a fully tricked-out boat of decent vintage (less than 10 years old) and good lineage (Bristol, Catalina, Tartan, etc., etc.) pretty easily.

The easy part will be discarding the hundreds of boats which have been badly maintained, badly treated, and of questionable build quality.

The tough part will be making the final decision amongst the hundreds which are left 

Bill


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## danielgoldberg (Feb 9, 2008)

CrazyRu said:


> I don't want to hijack a tread, but why do you think that "Freedom" needs more care than any 10 y.o. boat? Was it because your experience with your boat? From my experience with older "Freedoms" it seems like they can tolerate abuse for awhile. I was on 25 y.o. boat once with factory installed mast. I mean, they never pull it out.


They don't, but they're not looking at 10 year old boats, which is the problem. The "newest" Freedoms are about 12 years old at this point, assuming you could find for sale the most recent vintage of the model you want. And with the cored hulls and all it is a consideration that you could have higher maintenance costs ensuring that nothing happens there. Also, they are a bit more expensive than what I think they need to spend for what they want to do. I'm not knocking Freedoms at all. I owned a 45 for a while, and I absolutely loved it and would recommend it to anyone looking for that type of boat. I just don't think it's the right boat for this particular family.


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## WouldaShoulda (Oct 7, 2008)

hellosailor said:


> If they are English, doesn't it have to be a twin keel boat with a kerosene stove onboard? (G)


One doesn't need a fancy galley just to make tea and boil eels!!


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## danielgoldberg (Feb 9, 2008)

*Here's Where I Come Out*

After 20-some-odd posts, I figure I'll post my own views and where I plan to guide them. I guess not surprisingly, there's a fair amount of overlap with what has been suggested.

Here are the models that I plan to propose:

1. Catalina 36
2. Catalina 380
3. Beneteau 373
4. Hunter 38
5. Hunter 36
6. Gemini 105

Here's my thinking:

Catalina 36/380: He had the Catalina 350, which he liked, so he likes the Catalina concept. I'm no expert on Catalinas, but from what I've read and seen, the 36 and 380 are probably a better made boat. I suspect the 380 will be more than they want, both price- and size-wise, but you never know. CD, I may tap into you for info if they want to pursue either of these (I had thought of the 36, but not the 380, which I'll now throw into the hopper).

Beneteau 373: These boats have held up well, their owners like them, they are good looking boats (in my view), and they have ample room below. And they can be had well within the price range.

Hunter 36 & 38: This may surprise some, but I think one of these boats might actually be the best selection for them. I don't care what anyone says, the newer Hunters are of equal quality to Catalinas, Beneteaus, Jeanneau, etc. And the 38 and 36 look more traditional than some of the other models. But none of that is the reason. My guy needs to ensure that his wife and two kids will enjoy the experience. If they don't, this whole thing will die a quick death. The Hunters have the nicest interiors of the boats under consideration. They just do. They are more comfortable, they present nicer, and all that stuff. Some of the aspects that cause them to come under fire for long term cruising become assets for short term weekending (large open spaces, easy sailplan, etc.).

Gemini 105: This is one that I hadn't actually thought of, but SD put me onto it. I doubt they'll go this route, but it really wouldn't be a bad idea. We'll see.

As a nod to Jeff, I had thought about the First 36.7, but for all the wrong reasons. With two kids, one boy and one girl, it might actually prove to be significant for them to have separate sleeping quarters for the kids, even though they aren't going anywhere long term. The 36.7 has three cabins. But that really is where it ends. The interior is Spartan, the boat is a bit challenging to sail well, and it really is designed as a performance boat. Not the kind of thing for a young family looking to tool around, and I suspect it would turn the wife right off.

Well, that's my thinking. Please feel free to fire away with criticism, suggestions, additional models, lavish praise, money, all that good stuff.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

The Gemini 105Mc is going to have more room than almost any of the other boats.

It has a larger galley, with space for food prep, a refrigerator, freezer, stove, oven, etc.

It has separate quarters for the parents and each kid.

It has enough room so that if the kids want to bring friends, it isn't much of an issue. 

It has a decent size cockpit, and lots of deck space for hanging out on nice summer days. 

It has a roomy salon that you can fit a fair number of people in when socializing. 

It has a decent size head and a pretty nice shower setup. 

It sails flat—and doesn't roll at anchor, making extended periods aboard far more comfortable. 

Yet it is narrow enough that it can often fit into a 35-40' slip without a problem, having a beam of only 14'.

It has a shoal draft that is far shallower than any of the other boats, meaning that you can anchor in far more locations than they can. Also, it is pretty neat to be able to anchor in three feet of water and walk to shore. Can't do that in any of the other boats.

Also, having a dinghy hanging in the davits doesn't really block access to the stern swim platforms—like it would on a monohull.

They're relatively easy to sail shorthanded, since ChucklesR can do it—almost anyone should be able to.


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## petmac (Feb 27, 2007)

I wouldn't hesitate to recommend one of these. Think it could handle Long Island Sound. 

1966 Hinckley Bermuda 40 MK II Sail Boat For Sale -


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## danielgoldberg (Feb 9, 2008)

On some level, you're preaching to the choir dude. I am a fan of cats, and came very close to buying one instead of the Benny. But then, I wouldn't have gotten all the Bendy-Toy, Beneslow, POS type compliments that I get wherever I go. :laugher

On a more serious note, I couldn't convince the Admiral. A lot of money for a boat we had very limited experience with. And she did her own reading and found some concern over the motion -- no heeling, but rapid herky-jerky type stuff, along with pounding in head seas, and she hates that kind of thing. If it were my call alone, we'd have ended up with a Voyage 440, Leopard 46, Manta 42 or something like that. And in truth, I probably could have pushed her to do it, but I didn't want to buy a boat with that dynamic.



sailingdog said:


> The Gemini 105Mc is going to have more room than almost any of the other boats.
> 
> It has a larger galley, with space for food prep, a refrigerator, freezer, stove, oven, etc.
> 
> ...


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## danielgoldberg (Feb 9, 2008)

petmac said:


> I wouldn't hesitate to recommend one of these. Think it could handle Long Island Sound.
> 
> 1966 Hinckley Bermuda 40 MK II Sail Boat For Sale -


Probably not! He'd end up motoring everywhere in that old shoe.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Dan and Brian (CD):

First of all I want to thank you for the respectful way that you told me that I was bonkers here. 

Let me see if I can explain my thinking on why the Beneteau 36.7 and why not the Catalina's. I should admit upfront that I had a very different image in my mind of who these people were and what they were looking for. In my thinking I visualized something very different than "a family looking for some low key fun and comfort on the water." I visualized my own family when I was growing up sailing on Long Island Sound when my folks were slightly younger than the parents, and my brother and I were a little older than these children. My family learned to sail together on boats this size and smaller. My brother and I were fully engaged in trimming the sails, steering and doing other tasks that were part of sailing the boat. We all worked to hone our skills with these first boats. That was what came to mind.

When I suggested the 36.7, I visualized the conditions I grew up with and the mostly daysailing/overnighting aspects and thought that a simple fractionally rigged boat that could be sailed in a wide range of conditions with a non-overlapping headsail and reasonable performance would extend their season, would provide a great platform to develop skills on, and prove safe in a wide range of conditions. I thought these boats had a nice layout for a young family, neither plush nor camping out, that the ability to quickly go from light to heavy air and still sail well would be helpful, and that the cockpit layout and low line loads would make this an appealing choice. I personally like the interior fit and finish on these boats better than the Catalinas.

I still think that the Dehler 36 would be a far better choice than the other monohull choices in all ways, but that's another story.YachtWorld.com Boats and Yachts for Sale

With regards to Dan's question about where I think Catalina's make sense, I would say that Catalinas make sense in areas that have fairly stable and moderate weather conditions, say San Diego. Most of their newer designs are boats that work well in moderate conditions but which are not so good in light air, and which have a tough time shifting gears when things got tough. The most recent Catalina in this general size range that I sailed on had a large overlapping genoa that was hard to tack and trim rn nasty (This is partially because dispite having bigger winches than the similar sized 36.7, the headsail was considerably larger than the winch could comfortably handle and partially because the mid-boom on-cabin traveller had a lot of friction and the mainsheet required a lot of winching from the forward end of the cockpit to trim). The midboom sheeting make short handed sailing more difficult making it harder for one parent to leave the deck.

Jeff


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

I do not wish to get into a flame war but why exactly do you have an ax to grind against Catalina? Did Frank Butler steal your lunch money back in grade school? As my Catalina is one of the few boats on this board that is ISAR Cat 2 compliant (and yours is not), I would say that a Catalina is perfectly suited for whatever your friends have in mind. I would recommend a C34 or C36 as they are good sailing boats and your friend would find them much faster and more capable than the C350 he is used two. A couple of guys that I sail with who came from LIS called it the “Dead Sea” for its notoriously light air conditions. Whatever he gets, I would recommend the tall rig for obvious reasons.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

danielgoldberg said:


> After 20-some-odd posts, I figure I'll post my own views and where I plan to guide them. I guess not surprisingly, there's a fair amount of overlap with what has been suggested.
> 
> Here are the models that I plan to propose:
> 
> ...


I agree with about everything you have said. I would actually consider a new Hunter over a Bene now. We were so dissapointed on the last boat we went on... mind is slipping as I cannot remember the boat but it was under 40 feet. The benes over 40 feet seem to have more thought put into them. Same holds true for Catalina and Hunter. I have always wondered if at 40+ feet, the production boat seperation line becomes thinner and more on target with what have been traditionally considered higher quality boats, like a saber or others?? I don't know - but I would have no problem taking your 49 long term cruising and would hav eno problem taking my 400 long term (obviously).

From a family perspective, the 380 is an easier choice. You simply have better amenities. Gerneators are common. You have a centerline queen in the aft. You have two handing lockers. But under that you have a med-displacement hull that will take a beating. I have been offshore in storms where others around us were really getting banged up and we rode through fine. The negative of that is the boat is a bit slow and is more tender than the 36. I would rank the 380 a better cruising boat, but for shorter term stuff, I would save the money.

Don't get me wrong: I spent the extra money and went with a 380. Its finishout is better than the 36 (as it was built in FL and the FO is better there). If 30k is not a big deal to them, as long as they keep it under 150, they should be fine.

Ask any questions you want or feel free to call me. I do not mind helping.

Brian

PS I visited your B-Rally web page. SOunds like fun. I might actually take you up on that one day. I think we would enjoy it. Have you had any 400's join you?


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## djodenda (Mar 4, 2006)

I guess one bit of good news you can bring back to your friends is that the folks here who have sailboats LIKE THEM and are staunch defenders of them.

It would be frightening if we all were complaining about our boats and wished we never had bought one.

This bodes well for their purchase, whatever they decide. The odds are in their favor.

Sailboats are good.

Good for you for helping them find the right one.

David


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## petmac (Feb 27, 2007)

danielgoldberg said:


> Probably not! He'd end up motoring everywhere in that old shoe.


Jeez, Don't start that one up again.


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## danielgoldberg (Feb 9, 2008)

Jeff_H said:


> Dan and Brian (CD):
> 
> First of all I want to thank you for the respectful way that you told me that I was bonkers here.


Jeff, you are so right, so often, on so many things, that I'm OK with you being bonkers on this issue. 

I hear what you are saying, but I think young family cruising has changed quite a bit. For better or worse, who knows. But I think camping-like overnighters, with prolonged attention to the finer points of sail trim is not likely to hold the interests of children and the less-sailing-oriented spouse, whether husband or wife. Just my opinion.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Jeff_H said:


> Dan and Brian (CD):
> 
> First of all I want to thank you for the respectful way that you told me that I was bonkers here.
> 
> ...


I respect that Jeff.

I find we make a good complement here, because you are more focused on fine sailing machines and performance and I tend to be more kick back and relax and comfort. Although you can combine the two, it comes at quite a cost.

I always seem to be the spokesman for Catalina and production boats. Truth be known, there are many things about them that drive me crazy. I have said this before, but I honestly have grown frustrated and disapointed with their new boats. The 387, the 350, and a number of the other new models seem to be built from the inside out. THe emphasis is on comfort and systems... where will the AC be? How are they going to watch Television? Where are the 18 people going to sit when the whole marina comes over for a party? Blah, blah, blah. I like the fact that they are trying to think ahead on some of these things, but it has cost them in performace, cost of the vessel, and in some cases safety. What looks good in the boat show isn't necesssarily the best boat. But I think 'wat looks good in teh baot show' SELLS the boat. I believe we have become a community of sailors that does not pull the hatch boards anymore. Why take a test sail? She looks good on the stands. Incidentally, I feel like Beneteau has really become the poster child for this mentality, while it seems (gulp) Hunter has pushed away from it somewhat... somewhat.

So what has happened over the last 10-15 years is that people have wanted all of the amenities of home. They want the queen/king beds. They want large refrigerators. They want huge salons. It all comes at a cost. The power to simply run a 6cf refrigerator is considerable. The space and cost of it (when you consider all the associated systems) is even more considerable. But the emphasis has become comfort over performance and luxury over simplicity. This means money.

Boats have gotten expensive primarily for this reason. It certianly is not because they have all become better sailing vessels. In order to cut these costs, many of the manufacturers have started trying to cut corners in other areas: cabinetry, hardware, and in my opinion, design and functionality. For ezample, wire runs on some of the new Catalinas are frustrating at best. What little I saw (or wanted to see) from Bene was no better and maybe worse. There are exceptions to this rule, as Dan and I will both attest to. THe 400, 42, and 470 are baots were they have made more of an effort. But you are still talking about very expensive boats. The B49 (Dan's boat) was an impressive boat too. But the other boats of that line under 40 feet (excluding the First Series) fail to impress. And although I like the First series, I simple cannot imagine spending a genuine time on that boat when for the same money you could have something where you can be more comfortable. In that respect, I guess I am as bad as the masses of the boat show.

Why am I sharing this? Because it leads me back to your post. This really has nothing to do with the purchasers of this boat... it is a philisophical discussion on the trends in boating/yachting. The current economy not withstanding, the days of 'camping out' on the water are over for as long as I can see them. What might be considered a bad thing is perhaps a good thing? I believe that the design changes have brought more and more people into 'sailing'. It is a concept that I think you and Giu will have difficulty ever appreciating. Because what might have long ago been considered roughing it is now a way to spend time with the family in comfort. I know many people that just enjoy getting on their boats and entertaining. I know many more that are happy tied up to the marina 90% of the time. Is that wrong? Nah. I don't think so. I think it is simply another segment of the community that appreciates "sailing" in their own fashion.

I am not one of those people. Contrary to the immense kidding I get here, my lines generally lay lifeless on the dock and my anchor is well used. I appreciate comfort away from the marina and like to do so in some manner of safety. I appreciate a boat that performs well, but my emphasis is certainly where me and the kids can spend time together in comfort and doing all kinds of things together. In some respects, I think a finely crafted performance boat would be wasted on me as it would mostly be sitting at anchor while me and the kids jumped off the stern or went exploring/fishing in the dink. THat is the sailing I generally promote and explains the differences in our opinions of boats. Your opinions are certainly not wrong, but the concept is as foreign to me as I think mine may be to you. But we still all have a good time out there, each in his own fashion.

Back to the original question, Dan, the 380 adn the 36 were built the way Catalina used to build their boats. THey sail well, with the 36 a better sailing boat then the 380... but the 380 a more comfortable boat and better to take a beating then the 36.

Hope that helps. Best to you both,

Brian


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## scottbr (Aug 14, 2007)

danielgoldberg said:


> 1. Catalina 36
> 2. Catalina 380
> 3. Beneteau 373
> 4. Hunter 38
> ...


My first thought was def. the Hunter 36 or 38, but I'm also biased, owning a newer 33. We are very similar in boating style that you described. Late 40's, 2 kids 14 & 17, cruise mostly weekends with a week long trip each year, and in mostly protected waters.

The Hunter 33, 36, 38 are very similar in layout and handling. The 36 has slightly more floor space and storage than the 33. The biggest difference is going to a 38 where you get more floor space in the aft cabin where you can walk from side to side in front of the bed. This out of anything will make the Admiral more than happy since no one has to crawl across the other for the middle of the night trips to the head. ( if they're not there yet it's coming very shortly) and is way easier to make the bed rather than standing on your head to tuck in the sheets. Other major dif. in the 38 vs. 36 is more space at the table, which is important for a large family and lots more storage space in the galley, another big point for cruising. All three of these boats are easily single-handed or have as many hands as are willing.

Our next boat will be the 38 for all the reasons mentioned. As our kids get older they may not come with us as much, but we're assuming they'll return with families in tow.


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## danielgoldberg (Feb 9, 2008)

Cruisingdad said:


> I have always wondered if at 40+ feet, the production boat seperation line becomes thinner and more on target with what have been traditionally considered higher quality boats, like a saber or others??


It's an interesting question as to whether the difference in build quality narrows as the size of the boat increases. There is no doubt, in my mind, that so-called higher end builders do better with fit and finish. They use more expensive materials in certain respects, particularly with interior woodwork. And the workmanship on things like joinery tends to be better.

But I can tell you from my own first-hand knowledge that high-end boats have many of the same problems coming out of the shed, and even some that are worse. One thing that is for certain, you tend to get more variance from boat to boat on quality, because more of it is done by hand, rather by computer controlled process. Don't get me wrong, the more expensive boats are beautiful, and in many respects are nicer than the mass produced boats. I have come to believe, however, that the notion production boats have all the problems, and lower volume more expensive producers are flawless, is inaccurate.

Just from my own experiences, I can tell you that our Freedom came with a few problems that it should not have for a boat at that price point. For instance, the hull coring should have been routed out around the through hulls and back-filled with epoxy. Ours weren't, so we had to undertake that project. She had some play in the steering, which turned out to be a problem with the rudder stock that needed to be corrected. Our Bayfield was built like a brick s**t house, but we still had a seam in the hull that was not properly laid up, so it seeped and we needed to correct that. We have friends with a brand spanking new Cabo Rico 42, and the list of problems they've had is nothing short of astonishing. We all know full well the problems Tartan has encountered recently. Likewise, we all recall Valiant's problems with blistering way back when. And many know the problems Saga had with furniture working when in a seaway because it was only screwed together.

It's just the nature of the beast. Boats are going to have problems. And production boats are not the only ones.

We're early in the life of our ownership of our Bene, but the things we're dealing with are piddly so far (keeping my fingers crossed that it remains so). We had a bad condensation pump for the tray under one air conditioning unit, we had a bad high voltage alarm that would go off without high voltage, we had a leak at the fitting at the bottom of a holding tank (not pleasant I'll tell you). The furniture had a few dings, which Beneteau is taking care of. Our most serious problem is that we burned through a shaft zinc in about two months, which seems to me is way too fast, particularly considering we keep the boat on a mooring, so we're in the process of trying to figure out if we have a current leak or bad ground somewhere on the boat. But other than that, so far, all seems well. Of course, we took delivery only on August 15 and then laid the boat up in October, so we'll know a lot more this time next year after we've had a full season with her.

Anyway, that's a long way of saying that there definitely are things on larger higher end boats that are nicer than on the mass produced, but from what I've seen quality control is not one of them.


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## danielgoldberg (Feb 9, 2008)

Cruisingdad said:


> PS I visited your B-Rally web page. SOunds like fun. I might actually take you up on that one day. I think we would enjoy it. Have you had any 400's join you?


This year will be only our second with the rally, and so far we have had no Catalinas. Want to be the first? I'll give you the BeneHunteLina discount.

By the way, excellent post in response to Jeff. I agree with everything you wrote, except the comment that Beneteaus are worse than Hunter/Catalina. I continue to believe the three are on a par; some are better at some things and worse at others, but by and large, the three are very comparable in terms of quality. The main difference, IMHO, is style and features. Now that said, I haven't spent any real time on the smaller Benes, which I understand was the focus of your comment, so perhaps you have a point there, I just don't know.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Dan...FWIW... I honestly don't think it matters much. Add Jeff's Dehler to the list you developed and tell 'em to look at all of them. The boat to buy is the one the wife and kids LIKE best. It has nothing to do with sailing qualities!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Dan—

I'm hoping you didn't just jinx you and your boat..


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

I would also really think about the work it takes to grind in a 135 to 150 % sailplan compared to a boat built around a 95 or 100 % Jib


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

tommays said:


> I would also really think about the work it takes to grind in a 135 to 150 % sailplan compared to a boat built around a 95 or 100 % Jib


Agreed. Although among the "big three" (Bene/Hunt/Catalian) I personally lean toward the Catalinas, this is one area where I think Catalina should focus on improvement. I would prefer to see moderately fractional rigs (no running backstays!) on the larger boats, with smaller jibs rather than the masthead rigs with large genoas that they seem married to.

What I'd really like to see Catalina do is adopt a rig similar to the CCR or partial CCR rigs used by some newer Tartans. I don't need a self-tacking jib, just a smaller size that's easier to grind over, and the larger downwind sail for easy gear shifting.


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## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

Ok, I'm late to the dance, but want to share my view as perhaps the most recent convert to the Catalina 36 ranks. For background, my wife and I are late 40's no kids, but love having friends join us for weekend sails anchoring out, one or two nights. This boat is our second and your friends probably have as much or more sailing experince was we did when we bought our C36. 

Now, I humbly agree with CD on nearly all his points re: the C36, save two. First he is hard over on the MkII, and I am less so, based primarily on my budget which is not a concern for your situation. At any rate, there are things I really like about the MkII, but they are offset by other things I prefer on the MkI boats. My C36 is a later year Mk1, I've sometimes seen these boats refered to as the MK1.5. It has the hull and interior of the MkI with the walk through transom of the MkII. The reasons I prefer this boat over the later MkII are: 1. I don't like portlights in the hull, 2. I do like the forward facing nav station, and 3. I think its a better looking boat with the narrower stern. On the flip side, I like the roomy aft cabin and cockpit of the Mk2, so for me it came to budget and the Mk1.5 delivered what I wanted for what I could spend. No doubt others will weigh these factor differently.

The other area where I disagree with CD is on the prefered layout. I love the idea of a folding saloon table and it is one of the things I really like on boats like the Tartan 37, Sabre 36 and the Caliber boats, but it is one point where Catalina's execution is weak (pathetic actually) in my opinion. The table is not a fold up, but a multi-step take-down and store arrangement and is no were near as sturdy or convenient as the set ups on the other boats mentioned. When I started looking at C36's I thought I wanted the fold up table version, but after seeing them, decided on the "U" sette as the better choice, and I am very happy that my boat came with that configuration.

Moving on. With regards to Beneteaus, I again agree with Brian that for some reason their >40' cruising boats seem to be far better thought out than their 33-36 footers. There are 2 >40' Benes on my dock that I have been on, and I love one, and really like the other. Sorry I don't know the models but they were above my price range, so I wasn't as focused as I might have been otherwise. In the Bene performance line, unless you happen to be married to someone that grew up racing Opti's, Lasers and Flying Scots, the interior accomodations of a Bene x.x or First series, are most likely going to be a hard sell against other cruising boats in the same price range. 

The Gemini is another boat I considered and likely what my spouse would have insisted on, but being a newer design, they were not available in my price range. The design philosophy of the Gemini seems to me to be very similar to Catalina in that the boat isn't long on frills, is designed to be easy to maintain and offers a lot for the money. If Catalina built a Catamaran, I suspect it would look a lot like the Mc105.

Long story short, I think you've come up with a pretty decent list of boats for your friends to consider.

Edited to add:
Good point on the large overlapping Genoa. I'm having new sails made and did downsize slightly from the 150 that came on the boat. Making a perfect tack really pays off with the Catalina rig, though we cruising sailors often times don't get it just right and end up facing a lot of cranking as Karmic punishment for our less than perfect technique.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

GeorgeB said:


> I do not wish to get into a flame war but why exactly do you have an ax to grind against Catalina? Did Frank Butler steal your lunch money back in grade school? As my Catalina is one of the few boats on this board that is ISAR Cat 2 compliant (and yours is not), I would say that a Catalina is perfectly suited for whatever your friends have in mind. I would recommend a C34 or C36 as they are good sailing boats and your friend would find them much faster and more capable than the C350 he is used two. A couple of guys that I sail with who came from LIS called it the "Dead Sea" for its notoriously light air conditions. Whatever he gets, I would recommend the tall rig for obvious reasons.


Again, this is not about starting a flame war either, I think that both Dan and Brian's (CD) response to my posts hits on where some of my opinion derives from. In many ways I am a sailing dinosaur; who started to sail at a very different time that today. It was a time when boats were simpler, more spartan, and cruising was about the sailing and the places that you voyaged to under sail and less about the creature comforts and night life. To this day, my sailing life is motavated by the sailing experience more than creature comforts and so that to a great degree the sailing ability of the boat is more important to me than its accomodations.

As Brian points out, by and large modern families are much more concerned about the creature comforts than I was as a kid sailing with my family in the 1960's. I think that this discussion reminds me that I am somewhat out of touch with modern family life. Its not that I judge modern family's harshly; I don't think that either approach to getting out on the water is more or less morally defendable. To me family cruising is about getting out there as a family and connecting with each other and enjoying each other. I personally do not think that it matters how that is done.

When it comes to my opinion of Catalinas relative to some other choices, I have watched as Hunter and Beneteau have updated their lines, to one degree or another, bringing in world class designers, employing modern rigs and hull forms and looking at the ergonomics of the deck plan. Catalina has stuck to older designs with minor mods or progressively moved in a direction that is less sailing oriented and more directed toward accomodations so that the last few Catalinas that I sailed, really were not particularly good sailing designs or conevenient to sail. I have talked about my other concern with Catalina which is that at various times I have been aboard a bunch of boats of the same age and size made by each of the big three manufacturers and almost universally, the Catalinas seemed to hold up the worst of the three, overall condition wise.

Lastly when you say, _"Catalina is one of the few boats on this board that is ISAR Cat 2 compliant (and yours is not)" all I can say is that _I do not know which boat you are referring to as mine, andd I don't know what ISAR Cat 2 is, but the boats that I suggested have an CE Open Ocean rating as does the few Med based Farr 38's (which is what I own) that have sought ratings.

Anyway, given the goals of this couple, I would think that a catalina might work, although I still would think the Dehler 36 would be a better boat for them.

Respectfully,
Jeff


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## danielgoldberg (Feb 9, 2008)

Jeff_H said:


> When it comes to my opinion of Catalinas relative to some other choices, I have watched as Hunter and Beneteau have updated their lines, to one degree or another, bringing in world class designers, employing modern rigs and hull forms and looking at the ergonomics of the deck plan. Catalina has stuck to older designs with minor mods or progressively moved in a direction that is less sailing oriented and more directed toward accomodations so that the last few Catalinas that I sailed, really were not particularly good sailing designs or conevenient to sail.


As always Jeff, ever the diplomat with your response.

Separately, the above actually reflects my view of the Catalinas these days too (no offense at all Brian). They are fine boats for their intended purpose, but they're starting to appear dated to me. And dated in a way that's not timeless (Hinckley's look the same too, but that's OK when you hit on a look like that). Again, not knocking them, it's just that if you look at a Catalina today, and one 15 years ago, it's hard to see the difference; there ARE differences, but they're quite subtle and the design has remained largely unchanged. I posted a while ago that one of the reasons I didn't go with a Catalina (aside from the fact that they offered only the pullman berth on the boat we would have considered) is that I found them a little bland. Now that said, go on a new 470, and it's a beautiful boat. It's just the same boat that you might have been on in 1999. And just to be crystal clear, I certainly don't think ill of the boats (otherwise I wouldn't put them on the list for my friend).


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## BarryL (Aug 21, 2003)

*New Hunter*

Hey,

Considering the target audience, I would suggest a NEW boat for these people. One that is clean and shiny and has a warranty. There won't be too many new boats in that price range, I know that the Hunter 33 and 36 are.

Regarding the size, this is little more difficult. IMHO, if they plan on mostly day sailing and / or weekending, the 33 would be a great choice. Only if they plan on spending a week or longer aboard, and will do that a few times a year, would I recommend a 36' boat.

I have a wife and 3 kids. My first 'big boat' was a 28' Newport. It was great for daysailing. Big enough to go out on 'windy' days (20-25 kt winds), Big enough to take 6+ people, yet small enough to easily raise, trim, and lower sails, make and raise anchor, and to dock.

The only time it was too small was when we (all five of us) were sleeping on the boat. Then it was too small. It was fine for a night, not so good for a second night, and I could not think of spending longer than that. The problem was that when you needed the bunks there was no space for gear.

Since I wanted to spend more time on the boat I looked for something larger. I ended up with an O'day 35. My family and I have spent a week aboard and it's great. Plenty of room for everyone, even with gear. I imagine that if we were going to spend two weeks or more on board, something even larger would be good. However, it takes significantly more effort to do everything on the bigger boat. The sails are harder to raise and trim (but lowering, with lazy jacks, is easier). It's more difficult to retrieve the anchor (no windlass). Docking in crosswinds is much more of a challenge. And, everything costs more too, like bottom paint, diesel, slips at a marine, etc.

So, back to your original question, I think that your friends should think long and hard about the use of the boat, then decide accordingly. I bet they could manage with a 33' boat.

My last point, it seems like about every fifth boat you see on the Long Island Sound is a Catalina. So they must be OK here. Yes, it's windy in the spring and late fall, and mostly dead in August. However, that's why you don't see many boats out in May or October. Personally, those are my favorite times to sail!

Barry


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## DrB (Mar 29, 2007)

*Sabre 36, 38?*

Again, always late to the party, but how about a later model Saber 36 or 38 in great condition? Can be had for 70 to 120K and would suit your needs and has an excellent reputation.

DrB


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

danielgoldberg said:


> As always Jeff, ever the diplomat with your response.
> 
> Separately, the above actually reflects my view of the Catalinas these days too (no offense at all Brian). They are fine boats for their intended purpose, but they're starting to appear dated to me. And dated in a way that's not timeless (Hinckley's look the same too, but that's OK when you hit on a look like that). Again, not knocking them, it's just that if you look at a Catalina today, and one 15 years ago, it's hard to see the difference; there ARE differences, but they're quite subtle and the design has remained largely unchanged. I posted a while ago that one of the reasons I didn't go with a Catalina (aside from the fact that they offered only the pullman berth on the boat we would have considered) is that I found them a little bland. Now that said, go on a new 470, and it's a beautiful boat. It's just the same boat that you might have been on in 1999. And just to be crystal clear, I certainly don't think ill of the boats (otherwise I wouldn't put them on the list for my friend).


These are my opinions and are personal opinions... so here goes:

I do not like most of the new boats they are putting out. It is the changes that are driving me crazy. I like the older boats - like the 380 and 36. There are exceptions, like the 400 and 42 - which really have not changed much over the years (up until #311/312 on the 400 where they made a big change I do not agree with). I think they have come too focused on things that do not matter and not enough on finish out.

Bene has done the same thing. That was my complaint with them. THe older benes and larger benes do not seem to share this problem. But once you get into a 40+ foot boat and are dropping over 300K easy, they have more money to spend on these things. I think they also realize that once they reach those numbers, they start competing against the Sabres and semi-custom boats of the world and MUST build a better finished out and thought out product. I mean look at the Hunter 49. Look how highly they have been regarded by their owners.

I wish that Catalina would set aside a mfg line to take a more personal touch to their boats. How much would it cost, really? Say 38 feet and up, if you want to specialize/change the boat, they will do it. They pull it off the line after layup and start customizing to your specs. Would it really cost that much to do that??? I don't know. Instead, they leave a customer with the options of 'this or nothing'. I don't think Bene is really that different. Hunter (on the 49, as I have heard) has tried to get a bit more custom in the operation.

So I agree with you Dan. But realize that all the boats I mentioned are ones that do not represent my frustrations. They are solid boats and the end of their line - which means most if not all the bugs will have been worked out. They will be happy with them.

Brian


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## soulfinger (Aug 21, 2008)

Going back to the original post....what didn't they like about the 350 they were sailing? Our sailing style is exactly what was described, and our 350 fits us perfectly. It certainly has good accomodations, an actual shower, and I think it sails great.


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## danielgoldberg (Feb 9, 2008)

soulfinger said:


> Going back to the original post....what didn't they like about the 350 they were sailing? Our sailing style is exactly what was described, and our 350 fits us perfectly. It certainly has good accomodations, an actual shower, and I think it sails great.


There's nothing they didn't like. I thought I wrote that they DID like the boat. It was a fractional ownership, so the contract came to an end and that was it. In fact, the very boat they had the interest in now is for sale by WindPath, and that boat is on their list of boats to consider.


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

Jeff_H said:


> To this day, my sailing life is motavated by the sailing experience more than creature comforts and so that to a great degree the sailing ability of the boat is more important to me than its accomodations.


I guess I am also in the minority with Jeff. In my search for a boat in the 32-36 foot range, I find few newer boats that haven't sacrificed sailing performance for convenience and accomodations. I want a sailboat, not a floating condo with a mast. The racer/cruiser of the 70s and 80s seems to be a type of boat that just isn't built today. Too bad.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

JimsCAL said:


> I guess I am also in the minority with Jeff. In my search for a boat in the 32-36 foot range, I find few newer boats that haven't sacrificed sailing performance for convenience and accomodations. I want a sailboat, not a floating condo with a mast. The racer/cruiser of the 70s and 80s seems to be a type of boat that just isn't built today. Too bad.


With a couple of exceptions, I do not consider Bene or Catalina a floating condo with a mast. They have simply put the emphasis on the accomodations versus performance... to a point.

I will tell you that my boat is a VERY, VERY good performing boat. It is very common for 400 owners exceed hull speed via SOG... an important distinction. We have a number on Lake Texoma that purportedly have exceeded 8.3-8.5 knots (I have not, but my boat is loaded down with junk). I will say that I regularly run in the 7's... even fully loaded down. Hull speed is around 8.1 or so, theoretical. Since you cannot surf there, I find those numbers very positive. Now, compared to Jeff's boat or Giu boat... it may be a joke. However, the boats are also VERY comfortable down below. If a person were to take the 400 hull and equip her for racing (pull out everything that I find many racers do), she would really be a great performing boat.

I am not aware of the 36 (and certainly not the 380) exceeding hull speed without surfing, but they still perform relatively well in a variety of airs. Our biggest problem with the 380 was light airs, even with a tall mast and 155. However, when the wind picked up, she performed comfortably and had a predictable motion.

It's all a balance and intended purpose. Everything is a trade-off, I guess.

Brian


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## jorgenl (Aug 14, 2006)

Cruisingdad said:


> which really have not changed much over the years (up until #311/312 on the 400 where they made a big change I do not agree with).


Hey CD,

Just out of interest - what did they change on hull #311/312?

I of course agree with you about the C400 being a real speed machine.

Survey and sea trial is set for next friday...


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

CD, I guess what I am saying is that I would prefer a Bene 36.7 to a Bene 361 for example. And I do agree that properly setup most Catalinas can be setup to sail quite well. I have considered the 320, but most seem to have furling mains and the storage below is terrible. Also considered the Cat 34 with the fin keel and tall mast, but not many of those around it seems. Since I sail on Long Island Sound, light air performance is important and most of the production cruising boats don't do well in those conditions.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

The ISAF is the International Sailing Federation and this is the organization that governs our sport from the Olympics to the Vendee Globe to our local YRA’s. You know them through the Racing Rules of Sailing. They also make the Offshore Special Regulations governing equipment and safety requirements for ocean racing. In those regulations, categories 3 through 6 are bay, lake and otherwise inshore racing. Boats adhering to the Coast Guard regs and whatever is in the NOR or SI’s are usually compliant to those categories. Cat 2 is near offshore which here on the west coast means races like the Van Isle 360, Coastal Cup (San Francisco to Catalina Island) and Newport – Cabo San Lucas. Newport – Bermuda may be a Cat 2 (based on distance from shore). Let me know if it is a Cat 1. Cat 1 is races like the Vic – Maui, Transpac, and Pacific Cup, you know those little 2,500 NM “jaunts”. Cat 0 is the around the world races. Incidentally, only in Cat 0 races do you have a requirement for a water tight bulkhead. These regs are a fascinating read and go way beyond what is proscribed in CE/ISO/AYBC. Though my lowly Catalina is no tricked out sport boat, it does meet Cat 2. How about yours?

What bugs me is the unfounded vitriol and scorn heaped on Catalina Yachts by some members of this MB. In the cosmic scope of things, there really isn’t much difference between builders like Catalina, Beneteau, Bravaria, and Jeaneau (you could even lump Hunter into this category). They all serve the needs of 99% of the boating public and the choice between them becomes a more personal one. All boats are a compromise between their pluses and minuses. Let’s be real what to most people really want? Something that is relatively easy to sail, comfortable, reasonable accommodations with acceptable performance. I would prefer that the advocates would extol the virtues of their favorite boat rather than wasting time hurling unfounded accusations about other brands

I have been fortunate in my racing career to have sailed on or helmed a variety of different boats. Not only am I a past national champion in my class, I have also raced on everything from Farr 40’s to Beneteaus. I was chief measurer for the Catalina 34 International Association for five years and have intimate knowledge of the performance capability and construction quality of that class.<O

I helmed a Beneteau First 38 for a season out here in SF and I can tell you l liked that boat. Her 7/8 fractional rig gave her good pointing ability but unfortunately, the other boats in our class had faster VMG. Our strategy always was to win the start, sit on top of as many boats as possible (usually until the other guy would split a tack.) As long as I was close to the others at the windward mark, we could usually out run them with our mast-head spinnaker. Doing forepeak on that boat was also pure joy. Somehow, we could do end-for-end gybes on that boat whereas my C34 requires dip pole gybing. Go figure. The sloping coach roof lines and that weird non-skid texture is definitively an acquired taste. The one thing I didn’t like was the false deck they put on the coach roof. Sure, it covers up the lines led aft, but it also flexes underfoot and we had a mini disaster once when our mainsheet hockled at block under that deck during a gybe which resulted into a broach. Which might not have been so bad, but we had invited our wives to serve as rail jewelry on that race.<O

I have driven another friend’s Beneteau Oceanus 361 on several races, and I hate to say this, but I’m not a fan. I cannot for the life of me, figure out how to dial that boat in. She refuses to get to target boat speed and her acceleration is sluggish at best. He has re-cut his Neil Pryde genoa, added a Gori prop and swapped out his traveler to a Garhauer and still my 34 outdoes him boat for boat. Beautiful interior, but in my opinion, pretty pedestrian performance.<O

As for my own boat there are pluses and minuses too. She is relatively heavy which can be an asset for our normal wind conditions here on the Bay. But in light air (under 10 kts true) I cannot sail to my 147 rating like the Js do to thiers. Sure, a slightly lighter hull, more ballast and a narrower beam would give me a better capsize screen, but everything is a compromise and if you recall the photos Smackdaddy posted to his BFS I sail just fine in some pretty marginal conditions. I will agree that Catalina’s are pretty ubiquitous and tend to all look alike but that doesn’t bother me as much as it does some folks. Besides, that can be construed as a virtue as it tends to keep the used boat prices up. In an industry where a hundred boats is considered successful, there are close to four thousand C34and 36s. Catalina is now following Beneteau and Hunter’s trend towards the “euro” styling in their “three digit’ boats which leaves me a little flat and I don’t see the logic in them discontinuing the 34, 36, and the 42s, but that’s their decision and not mine. Last Sunday, my local Catalina broker (unsolicited) offered to sell my ten year old boat for $20k over my original purchased price as it appears there is still quite a market for them even though they are now out of production.<O

I wonder if this Catalina vitriol is an east coast thing? I hardly, if ever hear such talk out here. I hear the occasional crack about “Bendytoys”, but isn’t that more a comment about the Selden spars? I do feel sorry for the Hunter owners as they seem to be universally unloved. But as my grandmother used to say, “there’s a saucer for every little teacup”. So let’s keep the discussion positive and leave the trash talk to the politicians.<O


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## danielgoldberg (Feb 9, 2008)

GeorgeB said:


> Newport - Bermuda may be a Cat 2 (based on distance from shore). Let me know if it is a Cat 1.
> 
> What bugs me is the unfounded vitriol and scorn heaped on Catalina Yachts by some members of this MB.


I believe the Newport-Bermuda race is Cat 1 (It's 650 miles offshore).

I don't think the discussion has been vitriolic about Catalinas. I actually am quite impressed (and a little surprised) that the discussion has been quite civil. These types of threads usually devolve into a food fight of one sort or another. Maybe us eastcoasters aren't as sensitive as you Lefties.


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## soulfinger (Aug 21, 2008)

Well put George.


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## danielgoldberg (Feb 9, 2008)

JimsCAL said:


> Since I sail on Long Island Sound, light air performance is important and most of the production cruising boats don't do well in those conditions.


That's an interesting comment. I too am a LIS sailor for the most part. In my experience, the production boats actually sail quite well here. We had a Bayfield 36 (which now is "Rhapsody in Blue" out of Glen Cove; do you know her?) and a Freedom 45. We never could keep up with the Catalinas, Hunters, Beneteaus, etc. in lighter airs. When the wind came up we would do very well on our Freedom, but in the ligher stuff, the production guys blew us away (one of the reasons we considered and then bought a Bene). The J's do very well on LIS too, and I do include them in the production boat category, as they most certainly are (and they're dime-a-dozen on the Sound).


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

GeorgeB said:


> ....
> What bugs me is the unfounded vitriol and scorn heaped on Catalina Yachts by some members of this MB....
> 
> ...I wonder if this Catalina vitriol is an east coast thing? ...


George,

Far more often than not, I think what you perceive as vitriol toward Catalinas is just a bunch of us joking and kidding around. Many of us kid each other about our respective boat choices, and since there are probably more Catalinas than any other boat represented on this forum, it may seem like more of it is directed at Catalina. Sure, there are a few who do truly dislike the brand (for whatever reason), but that can be said about any boat.

The C30, your C34 and the larger C36 are probably the three most frequently recommended boats on this forum. You're among friends.


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## djodenda (Mar 4, 2006)

JohnRPollard said:


> George,
> 
> Far more often than not, I think what you perceive as vitriol toward Catalinas is just a bunch of us joking and kidding around. Many of us kid each other about our respective boat choices, and since there are probably more Catalinas than any other boat represented on this forum, it may seem like more of it is directed at Catalina. Sure, there are a few who do truly dislike the brand (for whatever reason), but that can be said about any boat.
> 
> The C30, your C34 and the larger C36 are probably the three most frequently recommended boats on this forum. You're among friends.


John is correct. Don't take the wise-acre remarks to heart. Much of it is just intended to harass Cruising Dad anyhow. Lots of proud Catalina owners here. (I'm on my third)

David


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

danielgoldberg said:


> That's an interesting comment. I too am a LIS sailor for the most part. In my experience, the production boats actually sail quite well here. We had a Bayfield 36 (which now is "Rhapsody in Blue" out of Glen Cove; do you know her?) and a Freedom 45. We never could keep up with the Catalinas, Hunters, Beneteaus, etc. in lighter airs. When the wind came up we would do very well on our Freedom, but in the ligher stuff, the production guys blew us away (one of the reasons we considered and then bought a Bene). The J's do very well on LIS too, and I do include them in the production boat category, as they most certainly are (and they're dime-a-dozen on the Sound).


J is one of the few builders that still makes racer/cruisers. I have always like J's and would seriously consider a J109 if they weren't so expensive. Every boat is a compromise. I just place sailing performance high on the list of desirable characteristics and am willing to give up some creature comforts in exchange for it. Just wish there were more choices for that sort of boat today. Lots more choices if you go back to the 1980s, but I would prefer something newer if possible.


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## Rockter (Sep 11, 2006)

Everyone is going to be full of suggestions, but for that sort of money, in this buyers' climate, you wil have a choice of so many good boats.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

J boats are a very mixed bag. Some models are racers from cradle to grave (slipway to breakers yard?) while others have been designed for mixed cruising and family use. Some of the purpose-built racers would need a completer re-rig to make cruising boats, and are built rather on the light side The Johnstone brothers have specific criteria in mind for each design, so they can't all be lumped together. But, they know the value of customers and customer service, and if there's any J you are interested in they answer questions quite promptly and fully. And, they'll tell you right up front if something will not be suitable for what you want to do.

Generally well-built boats, as long as you remember that "light and fast for racing with a full crew" was the usual criteria for them.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

IMHO, this is the part that makes them most unsuitable for cruising...especially shorthanded, since they can be quite a handful without enough crew.


hellosailor said:


> you remember that "*light and fast for racing with a full crew*" was the usual criteria for them.


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## danielgoldberg (Feb 9, 2008)

sailingdog said:


> IMHO, this is the part that makes them most unsuitable for cruising...especially shorthanded, since they can be quite a handful without enough crew.


Agreed. These really are fun boats to sail in so many respects. They actually are easy to sail, which is part of the reason why the Johnstones have done so well with them. But as to cruising, they leave a bit to be desired. Even their "cruising" models are not so great for anything more that short cruises. People have lived aboard them for sure, and Dick & Leslie York even circumnavigated in the J46 Aragorn (great story, the boat is from Larchmont, I've spoken with the husband, and he says the boat handled fantastically, and here's their website: ARAGORN Home Page .

But all that said, if I were shopping for a cruiser, I wouldn't see myself getting a J. Racing, daysailing and occasional weekending, absolutely great boats.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

GeorgeB said:


> The ISAF is the International Sailing Federation and this is the organization that governs our sport from the Olympics to the Vendee Globe to our local YRA's. You know them through the Racing Rules of Sailing. They also make the Offshore Special Regulations governing equipment and safety requirements for ocean racing. In those regulations, categories 3 through 6 are bay, lake and otherwise inshore racing. Boats adhering to the Coast Guard regs and whatever is in the NOR or SI's are usually compliant to those categories. Cat 2 is near offshore which here on the west coast means races like the Van Isle 360, Coastal Cup (San Francisco to Catalina Island) and Newport - Cabo San Lucas. Newport - Bermuda may be a Cat 2 (based on distance from shore). Let me know if it is a Cat 1. Cat 1 is races like the Vic - Maui, Transpac, and Pacific Cup, you know those little 2,500 NM "jaunts". Cat 0 is the around the world races. Incidentally, only in Cat 0 races do you have a requirement for a water tight bulkhead. These regs are a fascinating read and go way beyond what is proscribed in CE/ISO/AYBC. Though my lowly Catalina is no tricked out sport boat, it does meet Cat 2. How about yours?
> 
> What bugs me is the unfounded vitriol and scorn heaped on Catalina Yachts by some members of this MB. In the cosmic scope of things, there really isn't much difference between builders like Catalina, Beneteau, Bravaria, and Jeaneau (you could even lump Hunter into this category). They all serve the needs of 99% of the boating public and the choice between them becomes a more personal one. All boats are a compromise between their pluses and minuses. Let's be real what to most people really want? Something that is relatively easy to sail, comfortable, reasonable accommodations with acceptable performance. I would prefer that the advocates would extol the virtues of their favorite boat rather than wasting time hurling unfounded accusations about other brands
> 
> ...


George,

That was a very good post. First of all, please understand that a lot of the comments you hear about Catalinas (and subsequently BBQ'ing) are directed as a joke toward me. I believe there are those that generally do not like Catalinas. SOme of those negatives are well founded, some are not. From every regular I can think of, they are simply a way to joke with me. Jeff's is the exception. His conerns are based upon what he looks for in a boat. Although I would like to get him on a 400 (which I think would change some of his prejudices), he is simply weighing performance over comfort.

It is great having another very knowledgeable sailor on here. Hang around and keep contributing. We need all the positive comments we can get!!! (smile).

By the way, if you ever get a chance to sail a 400, go for it. It is the best sailing of any Catalina (and better sailing than MANY other mfg's boats) that I have ever been on. I am not saying that simply because I own one either. I mean that. Have you sailed a 400 by chance? A lot like the 42, except she is more responsive and sure footed.

Regarding holding their value, I looked up 400's on yachtworld the other day. Without excption (that I saw at least), everyone of them were asking more than what I paid 3-4 years ago. Though asking price and selling price are two different things, it is encouraging to know that they have maintained their values so well... if not appreciated. In this market, that says a lot!!

Brian


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

jorgenl said:


> Hey CD,
> 
> Just out of interest - what did they change on hull #311/312?
> 
> ...


Changed the draft. I cannot remember if we discussed that or not? Anyways, tell me how the survey and stuff goes! I cannot wait to hear how she sails, etc.

Brian


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Reality is, for this couple, the Beneteau Oceanus models will work, the Catalina's, my favorite not mentioned so far would be the Jeaneau 36iP vs the 36i. The P being a performance tall mast version etc. There is a 2 and 3 cabin layout. The two cabin has a really nice BIG head/shower to it, I ahve not been onboard a 3 cabin to comment. 

Some older model Jeanneaus include the SO35 or 37 as good as any of the above mentioned boat models and brands. 

Now for me, I will admit, I would take an F36.7 over any of the SO Jeanneau's, Oceanus, hunter or catalina models! To me it is a hop inside, see how you like it, the admiral etc, and choose your poison! My wife hops in a catalina, says YUCK, hops in a Jeanneau and starts to purr! Meanwhile Brian has said his wife does the opposite of mine, hops in a Jeanneau, wife says YUCK, and is off that quick, hops into a catalina, and starts to purr!

Take your pick, all are good boats, if speed is wanted, I have found that Jeanneaus have typically been on the faster end of the PHRF end of things, with Hunter the slowest, Oceanus and Catalina's in the middle. WIth probably 20-30 secs at best differenece in a given model range, ie 35/36' boats will not have a spread of more than 20-30 secs. More recent models do seem to be faster etc than older models. 

The 36i can be had for 170-180 new, the older SO35 and 37's from $100-150K. I am sure that the other brands are similar in cost for equal age etc. 

marty


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"the occasional crack about “Bendytoys”, but isn’t that more a comment about the Selden spars? "
No, it refers to folks who literally banana-bent their underbuilt hulls by tightening up their rigging too much. Allegedly.
Compared to a brick *house like a classic Oday or Pearson, Bennys *are* very lightly built. I've never personally met one that was banana-ed, though.


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## Yamsailor (Jun 7, 2006)

Contact Captain Chris Winter, Ocean Worx Home


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Wow! A great discussion that I might have to revisit to fully appreciate. Though my open-mindedness disappeared just looking at the Dehler. YachtWorld.com Boats and Yachts for Sale

With the kids at ages 7 and 9 I'd expect that they'd adapt as well to a more cramped boat, as a more spacious one, given that kids generally like camping out anyway. By the time personal space becomes more of an issue for the kids, they'll have already had the boat for five years or more. I think that decision is more the parent's preferences than the kids, despite theories on the modern family and it's needs. As an eternal ten year old I'd sure hate to be motoring when other boats were sailing and if we're sailing, why can't we keep up with the other boats? Just my ten year old perspective.

To the original point, I'd think it wouldn't be at all a bad idea that the couple in question went on board and, ideally, sailed any number of these boats. There's no substitute for actual experience. Human nature is so fickle that a couple, or half a couple, seemingly fixated on creature comforts could sail on something similar to the Dehler and suddenly toss out all those notions that were so seemingly chiseled in granite. We can recommend but they really need to see a variety of boats. I've seen too many instances of where certain criteria were non-negotiable only to see them tossed aside over something they just loved which also happened to stand all the previous sentiment on it's ear. People are funny that way.

Now, 'bout that Hinckley. (g)


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## twinsdad (Feb 17, 2009)

*A vote for Jeanneau*

I think you will want to consider the quality for the price. I think in your price range, some of the Jeanneau's make a lot of sense. A lot of models to choose from. I think you should also try to get to some boat shows to get a better idea of what you can get in the size boat you are looking for.

I think there have been a lot of good thoughts on the previous posts -- a lot for you to think about. The most important thing is to go look at a lot of boats. You will get a feel for where you want to make the compromises that are always necessary when buying a boat.


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