# Replace cotter pins with welding rod



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

BoatUS July Seaworthy Magazine arrived in my mailbox yesterday. There was an interesting article on inspecting older sailboats.

In the article they mentioned replacing cotter pins with welding rod. I've never heard of this before. What do you guys think of this? What are the recommended specs on the welding rod? Where do you find it? Any tips on installation, or do you just cut the right length and bend it on?


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## knuterikt (Aug 7, 2006)

TakeFive said:


> BoatUS July Seaworthy Magazine arrived in my mailbox yesterday. There was an interesting article on inspecting older sailboats.
> 
> In the article they mentioned replacing cotter pins with welding rod. I've never heard of this before. What do you guys think of this? What are the recommended specs on the welding rod? Where do you find it? Any tips on installation, or do you just cut the right length and bend it on?


Go to the source for this tip 
stainless steel welding rod info - SparTalk


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

This comes from Brian Toss in his _Rigger's Apprentice_, a great book. The core s.s. from an old, broken teleflex control cable works fine and is a good way to re-use them.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

As long as you are matching stainless steel hardware with stainless steel welding rods, I think it will work just fine. Welding rods are relatively cheap and easy to find. One example here: Forney 44556 Stainless Steel Welding Rod, 3/32-Inch, 1/2-Pound - [email protected]@[email protected]@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/[email protected]@[email protected]@31dOmlJBauL


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## aa3jy (Jul 23, 2006)

One interesting point that was made in the article is that the removal of welding wire is easier and faster in case of a de masting..which our vessel experienced..


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## rd1900 (Feb 5, 2013)

krisscross said:


> As long as you are matching stainless steel hardware with stainless steel welding rods, I think it will work just fine. Welding rods are relatively cheap and easy to find. One example here: Forney 44556 Stainless Steel Welding Rod, 3/32-Inch, 1/2-Pound


Not that kind of welding rod, you want stainless filler rod as used for TIG welding. Search Amazon for ER316L Stainless Steel TIG Welding Rods 1-Lb 1/16"x36"


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

rd1900 said:


> Not that kind of welding rod, you want stainless filler rod as used for TIG welding. Search Amazon for ER316L Stainless Steel TIG Welding Rods 1-Lb 1/16"x36"


You are absolutely right. I did not look at the rods in my link closely enough.


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## deltaten (Oct 10, 2012)

OK... So enlighten me, please....
How is it easier/better/faster? Why a de-masting as example?

Yes. cotter pins are fiddly; but other than a lack of one 'leg' ta fool with, what are the advantages?
From all appearances, it looks ta me like the ends would tuck under, avoiding dreaded cotter pin scrapes


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

I see the main advantage of this as not having to constantly buy new cotter pins


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

So it's using wire basically. I read it too, I'll stay with spiral rings.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

deniseO30 said:


> So it's using wire basically. I read it too, I'll stay with spiral rings.


Yep. You could accomplish the same thing with some #10 copper I think rings are probably a better idea than cotter pins which require pliers every time you need to adjust a shroud/stay.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

I like rings too, basically because of no sharp points, but they CAN unwind on their own. They can also get bent which makes them a ***** to remove.

This welding rod idea is interesting - eliminates the need for rigging tape with its downsides. A small roll on board means you're never out of the right size pin as well. It's essentially a variation on safety wiring bolts.

P.S. If you follow Rod Stephens advice you don't need to replace cotters every time you remove them. Clip them short - just enough length to get a decent end on them, then spread them about ten degrees or so. They don't need to be wrapped back on themselves to stay in place. The small spread on a short end will keep them just as secure and squeezing them with pliers to remove them flattens the end enough to be reusable.


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## PorFin (Sep 10, 2007)

The only thing I'm scratching my head over is what about fine tuning adjustments?

So, you've got the rod bent at exactly the right spots but realize you need to tighten up the shroud a couple of turns -- now you've got to re-bend the rod (or replace the whole section) 

Maybe I'm over-thinking it...


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## Roger Long (May 28, 2012)

I've done this for the last 25,000 odd miles and it has worked great. There is some further discussion of it here with a photo of Rod Stephens and details of his cotter pin recommendations.

Turnbuckle protection - SailboatOwners.com

I've had cotter rings snag on jib sheets and get opened up into finger snags. Never a problem with the welding rod. I also like the looks of the rod better than the rings.

There is no tape on my boat except the upper headstay fitting which a boat yard worker put on and I didn't notice.


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

aa3jy said:


> One interesting point that was made in the article is that the removal of welding wire is easier and faster in case of a de masting..which our vessel experienced..


When a rig comes down I wouldn't want to have to unscrew the bottle screw - you need more tools for that and it takes too long. It would make more sense to take the pin out of the bottom of the bottle screw where it connects to the chain plate. I don't believe welding wire down there is a better idea.

The intention of these pins is to stop the bottle screw from unscrewing itself. The good thing about the wire is that it passes from one cavity to the next so there is no way that the bottle screw can do more than a quarter of a turn because the wire goes tight. If the split pins (sorry I can't call them cotter pins) are a little small they don't achieve the primary objective - the bottle screw can turn past them.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

I like the sound of the Silicon Bronze option. I guess I'm showing my age but a bit of ye olde worlde patina sounds like no bad thing.


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## Roger Long (May 28, 2012)

PorFin said:


> Maybe I'm over-thinking it...


You are. I've taken up a couple of turns on mine with no need to re-bend. I've also re-bent to accommodate a new length very quickly with a pair of needle nose pliers.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Omatako said:


> ...The intention of these pins is to stop the bottle screw from unscrewing itself. The good thing about the wire is that it passes from one cavity to the next so there is no way that the bottle screw can do more than a quarter of a turn because the wire goes tight. If the split pins (sorry I can't call them cotter pins) are a little small they don't achieve the primary objective - the bottle screw can turn past them.


Very good point, and it's a concern with my particular turnbuckles. The typical open turnbuckle has that crossbar at the midpoint, which allows the wire to prevent rotation of the turnbuckle:








But I have the Catalina OEM turnbuckles, which are an unplated bronze inner turnbuckle with no crossbar. I like them because I don't need rigging tape - the SS cover accomplishes that nicely. But without the crossbar, I'd be afraid that a tightly bent wire would allow the turnbuckle to rotate:








So unless I replace my turnbuckles someday, I think I need to stick with the split pins that are used currently.


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

My previous boat had the TIG (?) wire in place of cotter pins. It worked great for several years of day sailing and short cruises in inland waters.

For the record, it was purchased in welding sticks or rods, not from a spool. I've never done more than spot welding so I can't comment on the variations of wire.

I have cotter pins at the moment, but will change over to welding wire as I have to change out the pins.

So much easier to make small adjustments and much less work when the rig comes down for the winter.

YMMV

Edit: Got me to thinking.... RIP Tom Rapp of TR Rigging.. you were a nice guy and missed. http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/timesunion-albany/Obituary.aspx?pid=146363421#fbLoggedOut


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## poopdeckpappy (Jul 25, 2006)

deniseO30 said:


> , I'll stay with spiral rings.


Me too


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

The problem with either the wire or cotter pins is that once bent, they may break due to hardening. This seems to be especially true of overly-expensive cotter pins which seem to be a fairly brittle alloy. At least with recycled wire (see post above), you're not throwing away a lot of money when replacing. Cotter pins are a royal PITA to unbend and pull every time you want to make an adjustment. As mentioned, they are prone to become "meat hooks." Both the single wire and rings are better in this aspect, being easier to remove/replace with fewer sharp ends. Being able to quickly remove pins makes it more likely that fine adjustments will get done.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

I use the approach recommended by Bill Seifert in OFFSHORE SAILING: 200 ESSENTIAL PASSAGEMAKING TIPS...

He actually suggests tapping and threading with round head machine screws, but I've just used Allen head machine screws with locknuts... Very secure, and easy to remove... No way the turnbuckle body will ever rotate past them, not sure I'd entirely trust circle rings to guard against that...

I'm a big fan of turnbuckle covers, as well... Of course, you have to make it part of your routine to lift them for inspection regularly, but they do a great job of protecting turnbuckles from the elements, and you'll never have anything snag or catch on them again...


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

That may keep the body from separating completely but it does nothing for them loosening right off.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

SloopJonB said:


> That may keep the body from separating completely but it does nothing for them loosening right off.


Perhaps the shot doesn't illustrate clearly the clearance between the Allen head/locknut and the turnbuckle body, but there's no way it can rotate more than perhaps 1/4 of a turn before being stopped...


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

SloopJonB said:


> That may keep the body from separating completely but it does nothing for them loosening right off.


The bulkiness of the head and/or nut prevents the turnbuckle from spinning. From his pic, it looks like the head is big enough for that. That's what makes me worry about the welding wire in my turnbuckles - it looks like the bends could be small enough that they don't have enough bulk to prevent spinning the turnbuckle.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

I've seen 1/8th inch and larger s/s cotter key heads bent over and wedged into the turnbuckle; I don't see how the welding rod would do much to stop the turning on bigger boats.
The threaded bolts seem to be even more labor intensive than cotter keys when adjusting the rig and lots of small bits to keep from going swimming.
I use rings in many places, lifelines, main & mizzens sheet tackle pins, but, though I've thought of them for the rig, I'm just not sure if they are strong enough and, as mentioned above, would be a bear to remove if bent.
Tape and turnbuckle covers may be rather nautical and esthetically pleasing, but every time I walk around the deck my eyes fall on the turnbuckles and I can see if anything is amiss, if uncovered.
We do most of our 2500+ miles a year hard to weather in 20 to 30 knots of wind, so I think I'll stick with the cotter keys on the 70' mainmast turnbuckles. Perhaps I'll try the welding rod on the mizzen, it's much more lightly rigged. Thanks for the idea.


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

capta said:


> I've seen 1/8th inch and larger s/s cotter key heads bent over and wedged into the turnbuckle; I don't see how the welding rod would do much to stop the turning on bigger boats.


The open cavity type turnbuckle with a divider between top and bottom has the welding wire running from the shroud end to the chainplate end and it runs from one cavity into the next (see earlier post with pics)

Given that the chainplate side can't turn, only one part of the assembly turns, the shroud end and that means that the welding wire will go tight - there isn't an awful lot of pressure on the turnbuckle to turn so it doesn't take a huge effort to stop it. And to pull a piece of 316 SS TIG wire straight when bent like shown takes a very considerable effort.

Having said all that, there doesn't seem to be any comment in this thread on the concept of simply putting a lock nut above/below the turnbuckle. That way it is neat, no snagging, easy to undo and will never come loose (assuming it is properly tightened) and it also provides an instant reference as to where the turnbuckle was before you started undoing it. I have mine like this.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Don't want to derail the thread but has anyone tried Toss' idea about using lanolin to lube and protect rigging parts? I picked up a jar of the smelly stuff (it smells like....well...sheep) but have yet to smear it on any of my old bronze turnbuckles. I have those PVC tube turnbuckle covers. They do protect the turnbuckles but the only thing I don't like about them is they are a pain to keep up when trying to work on them. I usually use a spring clamp to keep them up out of the way. I also routinely forget to put the darned things on when stepping the mast.


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## Roger Long (May 28, 2012)

Omatako said:


> Having said all that, there doesn't seem to be any comment in this thread on the concept of simply putting a lock nut above/below the turnbuckle.


Locknuts create significant risk of galling the threads if tight enough to rely on. Heavy rigging strains will stretch the turnbuckle enough to let the locknut loosen and turn. To prevent this, you must have them tight enough to be right up against the yield stress of the metal, not good.

You'll probably get away with locknuts in casual weekend duffing around but not if you drive the boat hard and frequently as you will in deep water sailing.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

smurphny said:


> Don't want to derail the thread but has anyone tried Toss' idea about using lanolin to lube and protect rigging parts? I picked up a jar of the smelly stuff (it smells like....well...sheep) but have yet to smear it on any of my old bronze turnbuckles. I have those PVC tube turnbuckle covers. They do protect the turnbuckles but the only thing I don't like about them is they are a pain to keep up when trying to work on them. I usually use a spring clamp to keep them up out of the way. I also routinely forget to put the darned things on when stepping the mast.


I use Lanocote (Tef-Gel would probably work nicely, as well) on turnbuckle threads to prevent galling, but I've never thought there was any need to smear it elsewhere... Keeping the external stainless or bronze surfaces clean/polished seems a far better strategy, to me...

One of the reasons I favor turnbuckle covers, in the tropics or extreme heat, they help inhibit the liquefying or thinning of the Lanocote on the threads...


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

I have a jar of lanolin for coating the threads of turnbuckles. It works well and is dirt cheap. Won't wash off either. I was surprised at how sticky it was - I expected it to be like a thick soap but it's more like very thick honey - VERY sticky.

I wouldn't use it anywhere else but on those threads it works better than anything I have tried.


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

Roger Long said:


> You'll probably get away with locknuts in casual weekend duffing around but not if you drive the boat hard and frequently as you will in deep water sailing.


I must have a lot of credits in my black box.

I have done a lot of sailing on different boats including several blue water passages and I have made a point of doing my turn buckles with lock nuts and I have yet to have one come loose when I didn't want it to or not come loose when I wanted it to.

I guess I need to start turning to religion or something because my assorted lucky streaks will have to end sometime.

Ah well . . .


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## Roger Long (May 28, 2012)

SloopJonB said:


> I have a jar of lanolin ....
> I wouldn't use it anywhere else but on those threads it works better than anything I have tried.


My practice and experience as well.


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## Roger Long (May 28, 2012)

Omatako said:


> I have done a lot of sailing on different boats including several blue water passages and I have made a point of doing my turn buckles with lock nuts and I have yet to have one come loose when I didn't want it to or not come loose when I wanted it to.


YMMV, as always. However, the locknuts are counter to basic engineering since any strain on the rigging will be in the direction that will loosen them. I'm sure they work most of the time.

For maximum reliability, they probably should be applied with a torque wrench. You need to produce some deformation and stretch in the turnbuckle threads. This gets added to rigging strain. You want about 75% of this preload to come out at maximum rig load. It all just makes my head spin and I could never be comfortable looking at them on my boat.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Plus they can seize up, which is really aggravating when you want to adjust things. I have lock nuts on the lifelines on my current boat and they are seized - It's going to be a job to back them off without screwing the threads.

Some sort of pin is more secure and can't seize.


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