# Are Boats Built in the 70's Just Too Tired



## Grunfeld (Oct 1, 2011)

I've been doing research on three boats that interested me, a Tayana 37, Crealock 37, and a 1976 Cabo Rico Tiburon.

I asked the question which to buy here at Sailnet and received a lot of great responses. However, responses by two sailnet members warned me that these boats are "tired" and could well cost a lot to make them serviceable. 

My goal was to buy a bluewater boat for around $50K and at least get a couple of years of good sailing on the Sea of Cortez without having to sink a lot of money into the boat right away.

I'm well aware that boats need maintenance just like any complex system but am I being unrealistic to think that I can buy a 70's boat in good repair and that a survey will uncover all potential costly repairs so that I may avoid them?


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## blowinstink (Sep 3, 2007)

Grunfeld said:


> I've been doing research on three boats that interested me, a Tayana 37, Crealock 37, and a 1976 Cabo Rico Tiburon.
> 
> I asked the question which to buy here at Sailnet and received a lot of great responses. However, responses by two sailnet members warned me that these boats are "tired" and could well cost a lot to make them serviceable.
> 
> ...


I think you can definitely buy a boat in that price range that is serviceable. And, I imagine that there are many 70's boats have been either very well maintained or updated so they will provide lots of great use. That said, I don't think there is a chance in hell that you will find one of the boats you mentioned, at that price, in the condition you describe. Any one of those boats in good+ shape will cost more than that -- in excellent shape (not requiring anything) they will cost much more. Finally, I'd say surveys help avoid the big stuff, they are not perfect and boats *always* cost money.

There are some other boats that are also capable that might be cheaper/ more "bang for your buck". Allieds, Cape Dories, some Pearsons, older Bristols and plenty of others or similar style that have less pedigree than those you named but also smaller price tags.

Luck


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

I do think you can buy a boat in 'good repair' - at least reasonable - esp for the limited duty you describe on the Sea of Cortez (presumably with time to 'pick your weather window' for most passages)

There are no guarantees, unfortunately, as to surveys. The surveyor you get, how well (or whether) any issues are hidden, and general disclaimers of liability by the surveyor mean that you get your report and make the best of it. It's always best to be present during survey so you can get a more complete reaction besides the printed word, and a good surveyor will pass on all kinds of nuggets as the survey progresses.

But if you find the boat you like that's been looked after, and esp if you buy in Mexico I'd expect you'll find something... of course, double your budget and you'll find something better!


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

No boat from the 70s is going to be in good nick unless EITHER had a recent refit OR continious maintenance and upgrades when necessary. But there are boats out there which have had one or the other and are ready to go. 

REMEMBER it is still a huge buyers market. 

I recently bought a 44 ft boat built in 78 which had had an extensive refit and was fully prepared for extended cruising for a little more than your budget.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Here's the deal- you can buy a boat in great condition, or you can buy a bargain boat, but you will rarely find a bargain boat in great condition.

Boats aren't like cars:
A 40 year old car being sold by a little old lady in Florida who has owned it since new, always kept it in the garage, had it serviced every three months and only drove it to church on sundays is a great choice- low miles, no winters, well kept.

OTOH, A 40 year old boat in Florida being sold by a sailor who is no longer able to sail may be a great deal or it may be a pig in a poke. To be blunt, if the owner is too stiff and fragile to sail the boat, that sailor is also too stiff and fragile to keep on top of the maintenance. Likely that sailor has been slowly winding down for years, sailing less and less each year, which means that the boat may well be behind the refit curve. How many times have we seen here sailors who talk about planning to refit their boat for a cruise when they retire? Now, 10, 15, 20 years later that boat comes on the market. yes, the boat received new electronics, new sails, new canvas, new upholstery, had the deck hardware, hatches, vents and ports rebedded and the engine rebuilt...
in 1996.
Odds are, some of it will need to be done again.
Can you get that boat at a price low enough to make the numbers balance when com[ared to buying a boat in better condition?
Yep...but usually only from the owner's estate, after it has languished on the market for years.

Sometimes buyers set the bar too high, trying to buy as much length and displacement as their budget will allow, and then finding themselves raiding the cruising kitty to cover expenses they hadn't figured into the boat purchase budget.

Frankly, I think you are underbudget for the boat you want and overboat for your intended use.

$50K will buy you a Cabo Rico, Tayana, etc., 
Barely.
all are great boats, all are labour intensive- lots of wood, including spreaders, bowsprits, wood hatches, wood rub rails, etc.
If you like boat puttering and are relatively handy, then these boats are a great choice. If you have to hire everything out because your spare time is limited and you want to leave work and sail, not varnish or rewire, then add at least $10K to your purchase cost duriung the first year or less of ownership.

On the other hand, you can find lots of well fitted out "coastal" cruisers for under $50 k, needing less immediate work and with less ongoing maintenance as well.


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## Grunfeld (Oct 1, 2011)

"Frankly, I think you are underbudget for the boat you want and overboat for your intended use." - blJones

You're probably right about being underbudgeted but to clarify intended use I want to sail in the Sea of Cortez first to familiarize myself to the boat in relatively easier sailing grounds than the deep blue sea and also to enjoy the beauty of Cortez but then I'd like to take on more ambitious ventures.


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## PorFin (Sep 10, 2007)

I too think you are potentially setting yourself up for heartache.

As others have mentioned, a survey is no guarantee. Consider this: On the best of days, a surveyor is going to have maybe 10-12 hours to go over the boat with a careful eye. Unless the boat has been completely emptied, then that time will also include moving stuff around to try and gain vantage points from which to assess whether or not systems meet safety requirements and their overall condition. The bigger the boat, the more crunched that time becomes. Sometimes (dare I say often?) issues will go unnoticed. To put it in perspective, I'm still finding things that were undoubtedly wrong when I purchased our boat in 2008 -- and that's even after we lived aboard for two years, to include doing the Great Loop. The best you can realistically hope for is that the big ticket items show their heads during the survey, and that your surveyor is sufficiently experienced to recognize them. I guess what I'm trying to say here is to do your best to find the absolutely very best surveyor(s) you can to do your survey(s), but don't expect miracles from him/her/them.

Am I saying that your desires are unobtainable? No, but you will need to devote a massive amount of time & energy into your search and you will need to have a fair amount of luck to be at the right place at the right time -- a boat which meets all of your criteria will not be on the market for long, and may never even make it into a listing service like YachtWorld before it is snapped up.


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## Outrageous (Aug 18, 2010)

For the older boats, you're not buying the boat, you're buying the owner. I bought an '82 Pearson 32' which was treated like a shared heritage (it's the last hull laid). I have all the original manuals, decades of maintenance records, and I'm continuing the tradition. It cost me $20k, but I've put close to that into it and I still don't have radar or solar. When I was looking, I found 3 boats that had owners who were clearly over the top in their maintenance, had added many enhancements and treated it as a labor of love. I bought one of those boats/owners.

I would also suggest that a newer engine and sails (or replacement) be part of your plan. My engine had 450 hours. Look for engines which are slightly overpowered for the boat size and with under 900 hours. The sail set you'll have to decide for yourself based upon usage.

A quality surveyor is a must, and spend some hours finding the right guy. I looked at the surveys for a bunch of boats I didn't buy, and after I found what seemed to be the right guy, I checked with other owners, a boat yard, and a broker to confirm my decision. I spent $$$ on two surveys and backed out of the first boat, because the surveyor saw things I didn't.

Reserve 20-40% of your budget to upgrade things you Really Should Have, and I'd put modern electronics in that category for offshore use (SSB, GPS, radar, GPIRB), but there are experienced sailors who do without those.

Finally, if you're sailing in the Sea of Cortez you can buy boats cheaply Down There. Check out Latitude 38's Classy Classifieds. However, you should know some people down there who can help you find the right surveyor, boatyards, etc. You may have to spend a few weeks on site to avoid making a mistake.


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## Arjen (Jan 18, 2012)

I bought a 32ft boat from 71 for 10k$. It is in perfectly fine shape. It has relatively new standing rigging. The engine is from the 80s. I feel confident i could cross oceans with this boat and maybe i will.

Other than those things and the sails i dont really see how the age of the boat could be so important. If it just keeps being maintained, a boat should stay in shape forever if you ask me. The only thing that scares me is the day that the engine will need to be replaced. But it is running fine for now.


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## Shinook (Jul 13, 2012)

Judging by the construction of what I've seen in older and newer boats, I'd take an old one that needs work over a shiny new one any day. The construction of older boats just seems better in many cases, especially where it counts (hull, deck, etc). 

You can strip an electrical system, replace sails, fix motors, etc, but you can't go back and improve hull construction or design. 

I'm partial to old boats, but I like restoring things, so maybe that's just me. I feel that many of the boats from that era are likely to outlast me, provided they are cared for.


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

After looking at so many boats that my head was spinning, then doing that over and over again, and then scrutinizing each boat I thought could be the one, I just had to walk away for a while and let my brain heal.

Yesterday we went to Strictly Sail Chicago. It's a far cry from the Annapolis Boat Show but it's only a 30 minute drive and a nice respite from the boatless harbors and lake.

We were seriously considering a '76 Sabre 34 a couple months ago. I got my water wings on a '73 Columbia 45 and logged 7-8K miles on it. I later raced and helmed an '86 Hunter 35 but never got comfy with the starkness of the boat. The Columbia had a good amount of teak, and it was all solid wood (except some panels) and not veneer. My hobby is woodworking because I love real wood. Good luck finding solid wood in today's boats that's not veneer.

So here I was, ready to resurrect a 70-something boat and do whatever it took to make it my home. I knew at best it would be a season away from being ready to sail away and at worst years. But I wanted a "classic, real wood" boat.

I reluctantly went to Strictly Sail because I really didn't want to see any more IKEA boats. Sadly, I had resigned myself to the realities of age, money and time. The best times of my life have been on a sailboat and I had given up the dream of ever owning my own.

It was when we were looking at the Beneteau Oceanis line that I realized if I compromised I could actually realize my dream and sail away as soon as the boat was delivered and sea trials were complete. That was a "wow" moment.

What I realized was, along the line was my need for the timeless, the "classic boat" meant I had to be ready for each and every breakdown, failure and unexpected catastrophe that is always inevitable as a boat ages, if it hasn't been properly cared for. And if it has been properly cared for a 70's boat would have seen a total refit or two, maybe three, in its life. And that's usually reflected in the selling price. If you can find that "newly retrofitted" boat for about the same price as comps, consider yourself blessed. Some do win the lottery.

After the Annapolis Boat Show I trashed the Beneteau Sense. Although it's not my taste, the design tools available today produced almost a full length chine that reduced the ideal healing angle by about 5%. I found when I focused on current design advances, I was impressed by the results produced by computer aided design. So many of the weak links were being minimized in even the production boats. It's become easier to produce a better boat for less. That's not to be confused with build quality though.

I'll be 62 in April. I designed and built my house. I designed the electric on a $500,000 data center and a 60 story high rise. I love design and I love building things but I'm not getting any younger. I want to sail. And I want to get back to the islands and hop from one harbor to the next, and get in a round of golf or two along the way. That's the way I want to go out.

So when I saw financing on a new boat being half of my present mortgage, I thought maybe I can tolerate IKEA or maybe I can take my woodworking skills and warm it up. Either way, I can sail away, and with a warranty. I think I can make the compromise.

That's me. Everyone has to decide what's most important to them. There is no one right answer. It's like walking aboard one boat and feeling, "I got to get out of here" and walking aboard another and thinking, "This is home." 

But if you don't spend time on the boat, you will never know what's right for you. Make the broker work for you.


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## SimonV (Jul 6, 2006)

The simple answer is NO. In your price range if you look hard you will get a good boat from the 70s.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

I own a '73 Pearson 30 that I paid $4,000 for.
I have maybe another $3,000 in upgrades sunk into her, and most of that is simply a new mainsail.

She's not a bluewater cruiser, but I'd sail her up and down the US east coast all day long without worry. That's 40 years old.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Hi Grunfeld, my path parallels your plans. We bought a 1977 Rafiki-37 three years ago. She is very much along the lines of the boats you are considering (all good choices I would say). We purchased for slightly less than your budget, but will probably have added at least $15,000 in upgrades by the time we cut the dock lines in 2014. Whether these upgrades are fully necessary is, in part, a personal choice, but that's what we're doing.

So, while I think it is _possible_ to do what you're planning with the budget you've set, I do think the odds are against you. There are excellent boats out there, and older ones are sometimes discounted only b/c they are old, but I think your odds of finding one that is ready to sail away for $50K, are unlikely.

With regard to surveyors, I'd be cautious about relying too heavily on their analysis. Even the best surveyors can miss lots of things. Good surveys can be a excellent source of info, but don't expect them to uncover all the problems.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

JulieMor said:


> After looking at so many boats that my head was spinning, then doing that over and over again, and then scrutinizing each boat I thought could be the one, I just had to walk away for a while and let my brain heal.
> 
> Yesterday we went to Strictly Sail Chicago. It's a far cry from the Annapolis Boat Show but it's only a 30 minute drive and a nice respite from the boatless harbors and lake.
> 
> ...


Which ever you decide to do I hope it works out for you. I am happy for you which ever way you decide. Just a caveat Its easy to get impressed with the bling of the new boat. The financial ramificatuions are hidden by that newness. Excitement is ownership, I certainly understand that, and what I am about to say is like cold water on that, but I always talk about the elephant in the room no one else wants to.

You definately have made a radical change from buying a boat which you owned right off the bat to getting one which you will have to finance. One you werent going to finance vs one which you will not own for over 15-20 years. On most financed boats with 20 year payments you actually dont hit the boat value vs payments left ownership till close to year 13. So essentially you are renting a boat, with a potential large payout ( should you decide or are forced to sell early) by having to pay the difference between the depreciated selling point of the boat and what you owe on the loan. This is not like a mortage on a house at all. Houses over years tend to either hold value or appreciate in value are considered investments. ( This is a generalization I know). Boats are not investments at all. Immediate 20% devaluation at purchase with a declining value each year. You cannot compare a boat to a house. Boat sellers confuse you by using the term boat mortage and making it look like a mortage.

There are alternatives. It is actually more prudent to buy a slightly used boat 5-10 years, and take a loan out on a price which has already undergone that huge up front hit. YOou still get new and fairly used equipment

Let me also caution you on some of your assumptions. New boats have issues and problems. Anything going into the water in a marine environment will which has the torques and forces on it. All of us who own boats, including the new boat owners spend thousands each year on our boats. Whether it is upgrading, adding features, fixing broken parts, or our marina and slip fees. None of these go away with a new boat

As far as warrenties...to me that is also a double edged sword. There are two instances where warrenties arent potentially worth a hill of crap.

One, where the manufacturer goes bankrupt or does a bait and switch and goes belly up and reforms as another company. I beleive Tartan did this, although they were forces or the new owner chose to honor. The poeple who bought these new boats were forced to go through long protracted legal squabbles. In fact it became such a contentious issue on Sailnet that certain Sailnet memebers were censored here to prevent them from posting negative adds in 2009. In addition Hunter filed for bankrupcy this year. If it reporganizes are their 10 year wareenties valid. Ill bet not. So by the stroke of the pen thery go away.

http://cruising.stuffiminto.com/everything-else-boats/318-what-tartan-c-c-dont-want-you-know.html

Secondly the warentey is most of the time only on the builders stuff, not on the stuff which they buy and subcontract out. For instance if you have problems with the Yanmar...its not Benetaus call. You have to deal with the Yanmar warrentee and their restriction.

So what I an talking about here is not the differences between designed boats which is prettier/ durable, but true financial decisions. We all have gone to boat shows and have gotten wrapped into the sales tactics and blings of the new boats, trust me. When someone can figure out a payment plan to fit into your budget it makes it so very appealing. boat salesman are the ultimate car salesman. It might be better if you were changing your mind from going to a paid off boat you already owned to one the bank owns to getting one where the value of the boat is actually closer to what you owe. Especially considering your age ( I am close too).

You could get approved for a loan from Essex for instance at a payment you can afford ( similar to theirs) and go out and look at boats which values are close to that payment. You will actually do pretty well. And the devaluatuon will have happened to that boat. That way if there is an emergency, your health falters, you loose your finanacial security, you will be able to sell the boat and almost cover the loan and not suffer a financial debacle.

In a way I am sorry to throw cold water on your excitement, and maybe you have already crunched the numbers and though about this. Look at other alternatives vs brand new and 1970s baots. Thats two completely different ends of the spectrum. There is a middle ground Take a deep breath here before jumping into the deep end of the pool with the sharks.

Hope we are still friends after this post.

Dave


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

You have to ask yourself how you are really planning to use the boat. Be realistic and honest when you answer.

My dream was to buy the quintessential 35-40' "blue water sailor" and explore world. I love harbor-hopping, and find it a thrill to go somewhere that I've never been before. I looked at several 80's vintage CS 36Ts, Passport 39 and 40, and a couple of Tartans.

While my dream still lives, I eventually came to realize that it wasn't gonna' come true; the admiral loves sailing, but not getting out of sight of land. I would like to take the admiral with me, and I can't comfortably dock or pick up a mooring on anything larger than 30'. I am also linguistically limited to a subset of English, so coming ashore in Croatia could be a problem... Finally, my financial wherewithal was limited (unless those lottery tickets ever pay off). I had to establish a "boat budget." I initially _planned _to spend ~70% on the purchase of the best vessel that I could find. I thought that I would spend 20% on refitting, and have the extra 10% "just in case".

The boat that I settled on, an '87 O'day 35, is a coastal cruiser. She was clean (no extraneous holes cut in her for Loran, Radar, refrigeration, or to mount instruments on the cockpit bulkheads - a pet peeve of mine), and in good shape when I bought her. The core in the cockpit floor, a weak point in many vessels, had been replaced with 5/8" aluminum plate, the keel bolts had been replaced, and the keel rebedded (look through some of my older posts if you are interested). Fortunately, this boat was closer to 50% of my "planned" budget. With the maintenance and re-fitting that I have done in the two seasons that I have owned her, I believe that I have spent about 120% of the plan, and I have done all of my own work (engine, electrical, plumbing, fiberglass), except for the new Bimini and Dodger.

Her hull will probably outlast me, if I keep her from running into things, so I have no concerns about her being "too tired." However the interior systems (electronics, charging, plumbing, head & holding, engine and driveline) are in constant _need _of maintenance and upgrading.

In retrospect, I am VERY glad that I did not buy that bluewater boat.


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

Arjen said:


> Other than those things and the sails i dont really see how the age of the boat could be so important.


As soon as we build it, Mother Nature begins to try to break it down. And when you are on the water, She's much more effective.

Hit a wave, stress the hull. Leave the tiniest pin hole unsealed, water will find its way in. Put up your sails and your mast bends and compresses, stays stretch. Moisture is everywhere and looking for equilibrium by working its way into dry places. Everything that left the factory in pristine condition begins to change once the boat enters the real world.

Certainly, good maintenance will slow the process and even halt it for a while but nothing can completely stop the aging process. That's why when looking at older boats you need to scrutinize it even more carefully so you know what you're getting into.

Almost anything can be fixed on a boat, but at what price? A wet balsa core in your deck could be prohibitively expensive to fix. Replacing the teak on a deck could run you upwards of $70,000, or more. A new engine for the Sabre 34 we were looking at was around $12,000 plus installation costs. Repairing the chain plates and rotted knee walls for that boat would have cost just as much or would have taken us months to do ourselves. So you have to know the boat or be ready to roll with the punches and open your wallet.

To the OP, if you have your eyes on an older boat, make sure you get a competent marine surveyor that YOU choose, not the broker. There are also some good books that will alert you to practically anything you need to look for such as Don Casey's _Inspecting The Aging Sailboat_ and his once-you-own-the-boat book, _This Old Boat_. I own both and I learned enough to realize that Sabre was a bad buy and a terrible investment. I would recommend _This Old Boat_ for anyone with an older fiberglass boat. Even after resurrecting a sunken Columbia 45 and doing practically all the maintenance on it for 8 years, there's still things in that book I didn't know.

Best of luck in your quest!


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## paul323 (Mar 13, 2010)

You already have a lot of good advice; here is my less eloquent summary.

Any used boat, in good condition, is expensive. True blue-water boats doubly so.

If it was been well maintained, and recently refitted, there is nothing wrong with a 70s boat. It generally will tend to be a bit smaller and slower than a modern equivalent, and a bit cheaper than a more modern boat, but not a lot cheaper as the hull does not seem to age much. However the age is not as big a factor as how well maintained it has been; in your budget, the risk is that you will get and "older" boat, not in terms of years since the hull was laid down, but in the sense of years since it was upgraded - and *that* is the key consideration.

People have commended on how you want to use the boat - I think that is essential. I *love* the idea of a blue-water vessel, and frequenelty lust after them - especially Cabo Ricos - but like so many others the reality is I am coastal cruising. That changes the entire equation. <flame suit on> I would actually prefer a 70's or 80's coastal cruiser, as their hull layup is often thicker and better than many modern cruisers!<ouch>. (Of course, I am talking quality older boats here - Pearson, Tartan, etc). People I know took a modern 'Ikea' boat offshore into some rougher weather, and the hull flexed so much that internal bulkheads/cabinets came loose. Would not happen in my old Pearson.

In your shoes, I would look for an excellent condition roomy well-equipped coastal cruiser, which would be well within your budget, and kick around for a while in that. If you really want to cross the Pacific soon, ignore what I Just said....


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

I would suggest that you can BUY a boat for $30k and finish refitting for $20k more, so you can get your boat for your price of $50k. But you are unlikely to find a boat that you can simply BUY for $50k because all boats have a ToDo list and the older they get, the more needs to be done. Unless someone has just done a refit and walked away (as rarely but sometimes happens) you won't find a boat with all the projects cuaghtup and done.

If you want to buy a boat that needs no work and just take off, I'd suspect you will be looking at a 3-5 year old boat and tripling your budget, and even then those magical words "blue water" mean you'll have to buy and add thing$.


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

Just curious why with such a limited budget you are looking at three of the most expensive boats in your size, age range. Just a thought but why not drop it to say 30 feet give or take and get a smaller boat in great condition. A small boat in perfect mechanical condition is always safer than a larger neglected one. Regardless of what size price you choose, if you want it badly enough you will have it and if you don't it was never meant to be. Best of luck


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## Arjen (Jan 18, 2012)

Dont know the name he gives it, but calder explains in his maintanance book the effect of having a boat full of new systems. (refitted or new). After some initial issues it will have a problem free period and then when many of the systems get to the end of their live expectancy, you get lots of problems at once. For this reason he suggest it may be better to do steady maintanance instead of refitting a whole boat all at once.

I can immagine this is what people mean with the boats from the 70s where the engine, rigging, sails, electrical wiring and whatever may not yet have been replaced and all come to the end of their live expectancy now. 

If however things are replaced on a regular basis, and everything is on a different point in its lifecycle, you should just have an old boat that needs maintanance. This effectively means you will be replacing one of these major things every few years and thus spend some 1000s per year for this maintanance. If you can do part of this yourself and part of it in cheap labor countries, this is still nothing compared to the write-off on the value of buying a (relatively) new boat. If you keep doing the maintenance, it seems to me that it should last for another century as long as it doesnt run into hurricanes or other major disasters.


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## Argyle38 (Oct 28, 2010)

I certainly have some experience in this area. It's common knowledge among sailors that all boats need work, and that's a given. But boats of that age, an in your price an size range, will need major, critical systems updated or replaced. This is what is probably referred to as being "tired" as far as boat condition goes. It will not be much fun at all going cruising on boat where engine, rigging, electrical and other systems are ticking time-bombs getting close to going off. If tackling the updates on these types of systems (and doing the work yourself) isn't what you would look forward to in boat ownership, then you probably need to adjust either the size or your budget in order to find something adequate. 

For myself, I really like designing and installing the various systems on the boat. I like knowing what's there, knowing that it's done well, and if it's not done well, knowing that I don't have anyone else to blame but me. Since I bought the boat in late '06, I've either refurbished or replaced nearly every system on the boat. Truth is though, if I would have spent more money on a boat 10-15 years newer, I still would have likely went through the process of replacing and restoring, just to bring things up to date and make the system one of my design. So it didn't matter, within reason, how old the boat was, I was going to mess with stuff no matter what.

I think that's the main thing you have to decide, whether doing these types of system upgrades would be something you look forward to, at least to some extant, or whether it would just be torture, keeping you from your next destination.


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

blowinstink said:


> There are some other boats that are also capable that might be cheaper/ more "bang for your buck". Allieds, Cape Dories, some Pearsons, older Bristols and plenty of others or similar style that have less pedigree than those you named but also smaller price tags.
> 
> Luck


One of my favourite boats, the Bristol 35.5, can be had for $60K - and then you'd have a mid-80s built boat, 10 years newer than the boats you're thinking about. Still a REALLY well built boat. Still, I think you should factor in $20K for upgrades and fixes, that amount of money can go really fast.


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

JulieMor said:


> After the Annapolis Boat Show I trashed the Beneteau Sense. Although it's not my taste, the design tools available today produced almost a full length chine that reduced the ideal healing angle by about 5%. I found when I focused on current design advances, I was impressed by the results produced by computer aided design. So many of the weak links were being minimized in even the production boats. It's become easier to produce a better boat for less. That's not to be confused with build quality though.


My Wayfarer, designed in the 50s, had hard chines. Even though my boat was fibreglass, it was designed to be built in plywood and the chines are a result of joining 4 sheets of ply. They did indeed make it a stiffer boat than others in its class.

My point is that you hardly need modern design tools, hard chines have been in use for ever.


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## Arjen (Jan 18, 2012)

One interesting observation btw. 

Before i bought my boat (Rawson 30, 1971, 10k$) I talked with many people for advice and one advice seemed to be universal: Don't buy a catalina, hunter or beneteau. Really everyone told me this, both online, in quatemala and in florida. Everyone seemed to agree that these are weakbuild pieces of ****. I bought the Rawson partly because it has a very good reputation for being a sturdy blue water boat.

Now each time i look at treaths where people talk about buying boats for 100k or 200k, i keep seeing exactly those 3 names returning.

TBH, that makes me thing that people with the money for a new boat seem to be less informed, go for the well advertised nice looking picture boats and just look down upon old boats because they are cheap


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## Rhapsody-NS27 (Apr 8, 2012)

barefootnavigator said:


> Just a thought but why not drop it to say 30 feet give or take and get a smaller boat in great condition.


This is almost what I was doing. I was thinking of "Get the last boat first" but then thinking that I'm still new to all this myself so decided to look and get something smaller but still be able to go just about anywhere I would want. I ended up with a Nor'sea 27 as my first boat and while I haven't had it in the water yet, I've still had some fun working on it to get it ready. Always reminds me of the saying "A bad day on the boat is better than a good day at work" 



Arjen said:


> one advice seemed to be universal: Don't buy a catalina, hunter or beneteau.
> 
> I bought the Rawson partly because it has a very good reputation for being a sturdy blue water boat.


I was seeing the same advice about the common production boats. I got a Nor'sea 27 for having the same reputation of being a solid "blue water" boat. So far, I'm happy for this being my first (possibly only?) boat.


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## Simon123 (Nov 29, 2007)

This above might be the best advice in the thread, if you're pushing your budget and are unsure if you can get the quality of boat you need for the money you have just go smaller! Having crewed all over the Med on a 32 foot cruiser from the early 80's every time I see the pictures I'm surprised again much boat it actually feels like. Lots of guests and people who are unfamiliar with the boat flopping all over the place in every breath of wind (ie. a typical weekend/daysailer scenario) makes a boat feel tiny. Getting it down to just the few people who live and crew full time and move about the boat like they would their living room changes everything. 

Not only does everything get cheaper, it's all much easier to deal with and far more forgiving of many types of mistakes. Pretty much once you have headroom and space for the entire crew to stretch out and read a book at the same time you have plenty of boat. Anything beyond that is a luxury for when you have more money to spend.


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

Just my opinion, not much experience to back it up ...

I think it depends a lot on the person.

Some people like to have boats that are already fitted out and ready to sail, and only need to have a bit of maintenance done on them from time to time, not everybody likes to mess around in boats. Turnkey, like a condo, you spend enough money you get what you want. Those people aside ...

Some people like basic boats and projects are okay.

I'm more of the basic boat type and what matters to me is that the hull is strong and that the design is going to work. I'm not much of a features person and care little about the color of cushion covers, to me the way the rudder is mounted is much more important, that there is a way to handle heavy ground tackle, etc. I like some of the 1970's fiberglass (as far as fiberglass goes) if it is sound and built to last.

To use a house analogy, you wouldn't buy a house with a bad foundation for the curtains. The most important thing is the basic structure, the layout, foundation, roof, etc. Next in importance are the systems, the plumbing, wiring, things that can be changed but are a lot of work to change. After that comes the finish, choice of tile, paint, and finally the furniture and decoration. Boats are a lot like that and it would be a good analogy except that houses with bad foundations don't break apart in a storm and sink.

Fitting solar panels is easy, changing the hull design is impossible.

I think you have to start with a good basic boat.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Arjen said:


> One interesting observation btw.
> 
> Before i bought my boat (Rawson 30, 1971, 10k$) I talked with many people for advice and one advice seemed to be universal: Don't buy a catalina, hunter or beneteau. Really everyone told me this, both online, in quatemala and in florida. Everyone seemed to agree that these are weakbuild pieces of ****. I bought the Rawson partly because it has a very good reputation for being a sturdy blue water boat.
> 
> ...


"Everyone" told you to avoid those 3 manufacturers? It sure wasn't me.

The Rawson is a solid boat for sure, but Catalinas and many Beneteaus are hardly "weak built pieces of $hit". They are not "blue water" boats, but they're not pretending to be. If you use them for their intended function, (River, bay, or coastal cruising) they are perfectly safe and reliable.

Catalina isn't one of the most prolific builders because they build crap. They've built tens of thousands of 22's, 25's, 27's and 30's.

Sequitur has safely made ocean passages on a Hunter 49, including around Cape Horn. The Cherubini-designed Hunters are sought after for their good design and durability.

I've never owned any of the above mentioned boats, but I've sailed on several. They're just fine for their intended use and the're not "garbage" just because they're not ocean passage-making vessels.

You might reconsider making such blanket statements in the future.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

BubbleheadMd said:


> "Everyone" told you to avoid those 3 manufacturers?
> I've never owned any of the above mentioned boats, but I've sailed on several. They're just fine for their intended use and the're not "garbage" just because they're not ocean passage-making vessels.
> 
> You might reconsider making such blanket statements in the future.


Agree with this.. and I suspect that Arjen spoke to a pretty select group of advisors.

Just as many, if not more, 'advisors' would tell you that the Rawson 30 is a tank that can't get out of its own way.... unless you add a bowsprit the weather helm will tear your arm off.... that doesn't make those statements necessarily true, but it may well be an almost 'universal' observation!


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

first research the replacement value of boat you are looking for and at. then market value of same boat in different states of repair/disrepair....
then figure out how much you can do yourself.
then figure out why you are wanting that particular boat...sail it and others before you buy.
you can fix many items while under way and many items are better done in other locales than usa, where all is pricey.

i bought this boat, a formosa 41 yankee clipper, for 10,000 usd. there are others like here in mexico for 5,000 usd. there are beautiful ones like mine for sale for 30,000 and up usd.
i was looking at and lost money on a ct 41 sea tiger--was trying to sell for 42,000--my 10k wonder was les initial money and i learned mine is in better condition than the one i was trying to purchase....go figger.

you must look hard at each boat you look at. survey will miss many important items needing repair. survey is only important for comprehensive insurance and bank loans. you go thru the boat as if you are a surveyor and find the problems. then learn how much it will take, money and labor, to repair ....i found that this boat in condition in which sh ei, was a better buy for my money than was the essentially same boat for 30k more than i laid out for this one. 
to exactly answer the op question-- NO boats built in 1970s are only beginning to show their bones--keep em alive and they can cruise forever.


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## Shinook (Jul 13, 2012)

BubbleheadMd said:


> I've never owned any of the above mentioned boats, but I've sailed on several. They're just fine for their intended use and the're not "garbage" just because they're not ocean passage-making vessels.


While I don't necessarily agree with the wording he used, I think the spirit of his statement is true. Those brands simply don't build their boats as well as other manufacturers have in the past.

Take a look at any of the higher quality built boats (Cape Dory, Bristol, etc) from the 70s and you'll find bronze components that will last longer than us, well supported rigs, thick and well laid fiberglass, and overall quality construction throughout. Compare that to say, a Hunter, whose components and construction are clearly cheaper, of lower quality, and not as well thought out. While some of the obvious construction flaws are inconsequential on their own, it does represent the amount of time the builder used to built the boat correctly and the mindset throughout the build process. I know this is a corner case, but I remember hearing a story where a new Hunter 30 was purchased and the owner found a crack developing along the bow after a few months, they later found that the fiberglass cracked when it came out of the mold and the builder put some sort of paste in the crack. That does not inspire brand confidence, even if they addressed it properly.

That doesn't mean they are "sh**", though. They have a purpose and they fit it well, but I wouldn't expect a Hunter or Catalina to last as long as a better made boat, especially if it's left neglected for any period of time. I've seen several of the higher quality boats left neglected for years without major structural problems, but the same can't be said of the cheaper brands. That said, I'd sure rather live aboard a Catalina 27 than a boat that is aimed at being more seaworthy, all that space is really nice.

Also worth pointing out at least one Catalina 27 has circumnavigated, but required significant work, much more than a boat that was well constructed from the start.


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

Daniel, you got a Nor'sea for your first boat  Awesome, I wonder if you have any Idea what you have there. When you make your first big ocean passage the big boats might beat you by a day or two but you will sail the whole way and they will motor half of it. That boat is one of my all time favorites.


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## Rhapsody-NS27 (Apr 8, 2012)

barefootnavigator said:


> Daniel, you got a Nor'sea for your first boat  Awesome, I wonder if you have any Idea what you have there. When you make your first big ocean passage the big boats might beat you by a day or two but you will sail the whole way and they will motor half of it. That boat is one of my all time favorites.


Thanks!

I did lots of research into different boats. I was looking at Cape Dory 27s, Bristol 27s and I was going to consider looking at a Bayfield too. But the Nor'sea came available right when I was about to start the physical searches and went for it. I wanted a sturdy boat that could go just about anywhere I wanted. It has a good reputation for its build and the draft was shallow enough to go just about anywhere I want. If I didn't get this one, a CD27 was next on the list.

I was initially told NOT to get a Nor'sea because I'm 6'5" and that it would be very cramped. It's really not as bad as I thought. I can lay down in the berths comfortably. I can't stand up while down below, but then that's what the deck is for 

I'm mentioning my size compared to the boat because it works for me. Sure, I would love to have a boat where I can stand up in but that would require larger size of the boat and pockets to pay for it. For anyone, you may not always get everything you want in a boat, especially your first one. Just enjoy what you got, if you're starting out, then you'll have a better idea what to look for if or when you want to go bigger or upgrade what you have.

I do like my little boat. Looking forward to getting out on the water this spring/summer.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

Arjen said:


> One interesting observation btw.
> 
> Before i bought my boat (Rawson 30, 1971, 10k$) I talked with many people for advice and one advice seemed to be universal: Don't buy a catalina, hunter or beneteau. Really everyone told me this, both online, in quatemala and in florida. Everyone seemed to agree that these are weakbuild pieces of ****. I bought the Rawson partly because it has a very good reputation for being a sturdy blue water boat.
> 
> ...


I suppose that is why the VAST majority of the above mentioned pieces of $hit are still being sailed even though they are 40 years old? If all you are planning on doing is coastal sailing (going no farther than say the islands on the east coast or the California Baha path) then buying a blue water capable boat is really a waste of money and time, as you will spend twice as long getting to your destinations. Maintenance costs will likely be more because of more limited production means more custom parts. The mentioned turds would not be in Guatemala if they could not get there would they? Now a poorly maintained "blue water" boat is going to be just as bad as a poorly maintained production boat.

Another issue is going to be ability to sail. Say the Chesapeake you are going to be motoring a lot in your slow Rawson, while the Catalina/Hunters/Beneteau's will be sailing past you enjoying the peaceful sail.

My real guess is that the person giving you that advice was trying to sell a Rawson, not a Catalina. This may have tainted there view.

But in general yes a 70's boat is likely to need some updating. But keep in mind electronics are considered outdated in just a few years, so even a 2000 boat my need new chart plotters and radar if you need such stuff.

So the real lesson is get a boat that best serves your needs. If you are planning on real blue water adventures then Blue water ability is good, it is a disadvantage otherwise. "less informed" absolutely not, different priority's yes, but likely better informed based on your post.

Just like the miss-informed thought that they built them better because they did not know how strong fiberglass was. No they were over built because they did not yet have the techniques to do it any other way. Just like people look at cars the same way, saying they were more reliable back in the day, untill you look at real statistics and today's cars are more reliable, faster safer, better handling and get better gas mileage. Now I love old British sports cars, but no way do they compare to today's cars, except on a windy country road on a sunny Sunday. (if it decides to start of course) You sure don't want to try to get to work in one, believe me I tried it!


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Shinook said:


> Compare that to say, a Hunter, whose components and construction are clearly cheaper, of lower quality, and not as well thought out.


I'm not a big fan of Hunters but I totally disagree with the "not as well thought out" part of your post. My friends Hunter 38 is the most remarkably WELL thought out boat I have ever sailed. It does exactly what it was designed and built for, does it very well and is FULL of extremely well thought out and developed ideas and details.

I don't like their looks and I don't care for the B&R rig but other than that  they are damn near perfect for cruising around here. I've never found anything about it (other than those two "minor" things) where I thought "I don't like the way they did that".


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Rhapsody-NS27 said:


> I was initially told NOT to get a Nor'sea because I'm 6'5" and that it would be very cramped. It's really not as bad as I thought. I can lay down in the berths comfortably. I can't stand up while down below, but then that's what the deck is for


At 6'5" you will rarely find a boat you CAN stand up in. I'm only 6' and headroom is a regular problem for me, especially in boats under 40' or so.

P.S. Great choice of boat.


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## Shinook (Jul 13, 2012)

Regarding fiberglass fatigue, are there any studies or test how the effects of fiberglass fatigue impact seaworthiness? More specifically, what are the warning signs aside from the usual (bad blistering, delamination, cracking, etc) that impacts seaworthiness? At what point do you say "This boat is x years old and is more prone to sustaining irreparable damage at sea due to age/fatigue"?



SloopJonB said:


> I'm not a big fan of Hunters but I totally disagree with the "not as well thought out" part of your post. My friends Hunter 38 is the most remarkably WELL thought out boat I have ever sailed. It does exactly what it was designed and built for, does it very well and is FULL of extremely well thought out and developed ideas and details.
> 
> I don't like their looks and I don't care for the B&R rig but other than that  they are damn near perfect for cruising around here. I've never found anything about it (other than those two "minor" things) where I thought "I don't like the way they did that".


You are right, my wording was a bit broad.

In my limited experience, it's the "small" things that add up over time. The quality of materials used, the way things are installed, etc. For instance, are the winches backed by backing plates properly, how are the chainplates supported, etc. They may ship from the factory fine, but how is the construction in those areas going to hold up 10/20/30/40 years from now or under unusual circumstances?

In one specific example, I know of a Hunter that ran aground and sustained fairly substantial damage to the keel and hull/keel joint area. During the repair, it was noted that the keel had nothing in place to properly spread the load of the keel along the bottom of the hull. For 99% of the boats out there, it doesn't matter, but for that small percentage where it's gonna be necessary, it makes a difference. It also represents the general attitude and time that was put into assembling the boat properly.

So by "not well thought out", I mean that the little details were overlooked or unwise decisions were made in small things, not the design or layout of the boat itself.

They have their use and they are fine for that, don't get me wrong. The point I was getting at is that the forces of time and neglect are more powerful against those boats than others.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Shinook said:


> You are right, my wording was a bit broad.
> 
> In my limited experience, it's the "small" things that add up over time. The quality of materials used, the way things are installed, etc. For instance, are the winches backed by backing plates properly, how are the chainplates supported, etc. They may ship from the factory fine, but how is the construction in those areas going to hold up 10/20/30/40 years from now or under unusual circumstances?
> 
> ...


Was that a small one? The reason I ask is the 38 I've sailed has a very elaborate grid in the bilge. It also has a shoal, wing keel so the leverage forces are small for the size of boat. I've never seen a Hunter "smile".


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Jon, in the 70's Hunter had a rep for being a cheap boat, lightly built and sold to newbs mainly on price. After all, the owner lost his own keel on Thursday's Child and that must have been embarassing as all hell. 

But what some people called "cheap" other folks called "affordable" and by building cheap boats, Hunter got a lot of people into sailing. So that's not all a bad thing. Supposedly they started building to a higher standard later on. And of course, a 38 is about twice as big as the usual "starter" boat. And probably built after the edict to "Make sure the damend keel stays on!" was issued. (G)


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## Outrageous (Aug 18, 2010)

A. Want to emphasize the advice given by Chef to JulieMor:
1. New boats cost a lot in depreciation.
2. New boats will have lots of issues initially - as many IMHO as well-maintained older boats.
3. There are statistics on the 'sweet spot' for buying a boat. Something 3-5 years old is likely to have the kinks fixed, the systems are still new enough to work, and the major depreciation hit has been taken. 

If you can afford the 3-5 year old boat you want, that's a much better bet than a new one. But again - you're buying the owner(s) as well as the boat.

B. On surveyors: Your surveyor must go up the mast. S/he must be able to test electrical and engine systems. You must do a haul out. Even with all that, YOU should test that every aspect of the boat works (or that the price reflects known defects), inspect every turnbuckle, find and view the chainplates, etc. Surveyors do have limited time, but hopefully you only fully rely on them for expertise you don't have.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

Outrageous said:


> A. Want to emphasize the advice given by Chef to JulieMor:
> 1. New boats cost a lot in depreciation.
> 2. New boats will have lots of issues initially - as many IMHO as well-maintained older boats.
> 3. There are statistics on the 'sweet spot' for buying a boat. Something 3-5 years old is likely to have the kinks fixed, the systems are still new enough to work, and the major depreciation hit has been taken.
> ...


Every surveyor contract I have read says that they do not go up the mast and that engines and rigging are not covered other than basic inspection. Rigging and mechanical inspections are separate, and normally different people.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"B. On surveyors: Your surveyor must go up the mast."
On what planet?
As Paul says, I've never met or even heard of a surveyor who goes up the mast. Riggers go up the mast, no one else routinely does. You want a surveyor to go aloft, you call a rigger and get a rigging survey. From a rigger. You want an engine tested, you get an engine survey, from a mechanic. General surveyors don't do detailed engine tests, either.
A surveyor? Yeah, checks the boat for many things, and doesn't check others. Might tell you there are rats in the rope locker, _won't _tell you how many there are.
Surveyor up the stick? Yeah, reminds me of why the angel on top of the xmas tree has such a surprised look on her face. (Oooooh!)


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Outrageous said:


> A. Want to emphasize the advice given by Chef to JulieMor: 1. New boats cost a lot in depreciation.


That's for sure - in this market you can buy a decent older 35' for what just the initial depreciation would be on a new 40'.

20% of a quarter mil is $50K


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Understand the logic of prior posters concerning the economics of new boats.Until now I never owned a new boat and never thought to have a semi custom boat made for me. Still think ( and acted on it) that:
1.depends where you are in life. I've owned multiple boats and know this one will be my last.
2.from the prior boats fairly definite in what I wanted on my last boat.
3. know my physical limitations and emotional aspirations.
4.know what physical hardships my wife will put up with and stay on the boat.
5. don't know what others consider a "blue water" vessel but know with in reason that the boat I live and travel on should be able to handle whatever we may encounter.
Yes,my boat loan will be greater than my mortgage ( until we sell the house). Yes, I will lose money selling my current boat which I turned into a blue water boat.
You guys can make fun of my power winches,flatscreen TV, internet access anywhere, being plummed for watermaker and washer/drier,. But I fully intend to be sailing in my eighties and making new landfalls on a boat that sails wonderfully and will always make me smile when I look back at her from the dinghy. I ate potatoes and spaghetti 7 days a week and worked the 80h weeks for too many years to not fully enjoy the last hurrah. It aint about the money - enjoy the opportunities the Lord blessed you with.

Sounds like you and many of the posters are in a different place. Getting an iconic boat with a cult following ( B40, BCC,HR, Valiant, Shannon etc.) probably will allow you the best chance to get in and out with little financial hardshp. That's great but make sure she moves your heart as you row away.

p.s.- still think ( my research suggests) once beyond coastal prodution boats if boat is held for 10+ yrs. cost of ownership not as onerious as prior posters would suggest.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

outbound said:


> Understand the logic of prior posters concerning the economics of new boats.Until now I never owned a new boat and never thought to have a semi custom boat made for me. Still think ( and acted on it) that:
> 1.depends where you are in life. I've owned multiple boats and know this one will be my last.
> 2.from the prior boats fairly definite in what I wanted on my last boat.
> 3. know my physical limitations and emotional aspirations.
> ...


What you say is sound advice for you and your choice. Some of us actually enjoy our last harrahs and not just on our boats also., I agree with your acessments including the important " she moves your heart commmet" I dont begrude you creature comforts and elctric winches, TV..they make the boat enjoyable...and why not.

Outbounds are beautiful boats. One of my favorites at the shows and to sail also. I wouldnt take a haughty attitude though as your Outbound like the Valiants/ Shannons of the past (which you seemed to swiped at sarcasticly) will become as you said "an iconic boat with a cult following" in fifteen years.

Also I guess it is a matter of how we run our households too. I soon will be through with our mortage in 4 years. When looking at our last boat I intend to own it and have pride in that as opposed to renting it via a mortage from the bank. One which I will not be upside down in for at least 10 years. I will never have to worry should anything catastrophic occur to my wife and I that I will have to make payments or potentially loose our boat. In addition in the latter years of our life the money we have will be able to be spent freely no fixed cost for a boat payment. I guess I just feel more secure at the time in my life when I am not longer able to earn money, that I dont want to afford something which I am still paying on. Just how I was brought up and maybe my overconservative way of handling finances,

I beleive I can find a well made 10-20 year own solid cruiser in the 40-50 ft range and not pay the bank or the watch its value depreciate 25% immediately as I leave the dock for the first time.

Understand I dont begrudge someone with a differing philosophy than mine, but far be it from me to think insinuate that buying an older boat was a " cult following" decision based on doing without. Quite the opposite in our case. We dont want it to be the only thing in our lives and be tied down by it.

Have fun on your Outbound its a great boat. I hope your plans to sail into your 80s work out for you as you have planned. I gaurentee the rest of us will also have as much fun on boats we decide on as we get into our 80s also.

Dave


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Dave- may you always keep your keel wet and stick dry. I wish you joy. Thought about this-with money in the 4%s and return on investment in the 5-8% (most of it fixed return) figure to play with other peoples money. Wouldn't do this if I could not just buy out the loan when I want. I have lusted after a V50 for years and think the Shannon 43 done as a sketch is one of the prettiest boats ever built ( spoke to Walter about getting one but couldnt make the jump). Never owned a BCC because I never had the time to keep after the wood. Done Marion/Bermuda on a B40 so she holds a special place as well. Only point I was trying to make is it seemed you guys thought folks actually building new boats are idiots. That not true.It's usually a thought out decision just -different strokes for different folks. Doing without is not having a boat. Sun dries us all and rain makes us all wet. Please believe I was not making the insinuation you ascribe to me.


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## BenMerc (Feb 19, 2012)

What I have found with regards to most all of the smaller vessels and the numerous manufacturer's is a substantial amount of research is involved in making these determinations, and as mentioned above knowing what the vessel was designed and intended to perform in the first place. Having purchased, restored and sailed three small -medium boats: 24'-wood Folkboat, 22' Catalina, and currently a 30' Irwin, I have been through the rigors of this effort. Checking make, model & year for starters, and actually talking with folks who have owned a certain boat you are interested in is very helpful...but remember, no matter the reputation, all makes and models have their weakness & strengths...and when buying used... assessing how well the vessel was kept is one of the most important considerations to make.

'Bluewater' and bluewater capable are words people tend to throw around, (myself included) sure there are accepted definitions, but it is only part of the equation. I have sailed far off shore a bit, no passage, so have limited experience, although commercial fished off shore in the Pacific one season, an added perspective. Have been in a few storms / gales...Bluewater is a very relative term from my perspective and experience, but experience is as foremost as anything in determining your understanding. You can have the highest rated 'Bluewater' boat in your class, and lose it in storm conditions in any waters...

I have refitted, re-conditioned comp. post...beefed up and re-built main salon bulknead, already know the hull is solid...deck is strong, next will be to do some up-grade on the deck to hull connection. I will feel very confident in this old 76' Irwin 30...she sails like a dream, very forgiving and fairly comfortable for a thirty footer! 

Here's enough wind to get any hull moving!


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## Shinook (Jul 13, 2012)

Out of curiosity, in y'alls experience, what's the effect of neglect on a boat that's been on the hard instead of in the water? Let's say the same vessel was on the hard for 10 yrs vs in the water, untouched in both situations. 

While things like blistering are obviously not a problem when on the hard, I am curious what the effect of the sun and elements are when the boat is on blocks for a long period of time.


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## BenMerc (Feb 19, 2012)

If not under cover, on the hard don't really help much more in my experience... a few boats I looked at that were on the hard , one for several years had interior water damage, and lots of it, saw 1' & 2' water stains / lines on the interior...The owner played it down, and played up the Stephen's designed hull etc....I passed on the vessel...was in need of a much more knowledgeable assessment then I was willing to invest in.


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

Well, the GulfStar 50 we lost on our way to Europe was a 1975. We had spent 5 years and well into the 6 figures upgrading and restoring as much as we could.

So, though I wouldn't say not to buy a 1970s boat, I would support going further than we did and also replace the CHAINPLATES!!!


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

BenMerc makes good points
?has it gone through freeze thaw cycles 
?is it on stands or in a cradle
? was it outside or in heated indoor storage
?stick in or out
?how was it decommissioned

Last boat I bought was decommissioned correctly and stored inside under light cover for several years. On survey clearly made a difference.


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

After we lost that 1975 GulfStar, one of the first things we said to each other, (besides all the: great to have dodged that bullet, comments), was that we would next buy a NEWER, bigger, better vessel.

So, we bought a 1986 Tai Chiao CT 56, and I have been amazed at the differences in the condition of the wiring, the plumbing, and practically EVERYTHING which I have had my fingers and tools into.

So, for whatever it is worth to you, if you can negotiate a 1980s boat price down to what you can afford, you will save yourself a LOT of work, time and money, as you restore her.

Fair winds.


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## Shinook (Jul 13, 2012)

DougSabbag said:


> Well, the GulfStar 50 we lost on our way to Europe was a 1975. We had spent 5 years and well into the 6 figures upgrading and restoring as much as we could.
> 
> So, though I wouldn't say not to buy a 1970s boat, I would support going further than we did and also replace the CHAINPLATES!!!


Yea, our CD has some interesting chainplate backings, I basically have to cut the liner to access them. That's the scariest thing we have encountered so far with restoring a 70's boat. It's an easy thing to fix, though, relative to other problems that could be had.


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## BenMerc (Feb 19, 2012)

Also...something I have considered with boats on the hard for extended stays...proper cradle...I hope these insights have helped, if you had not considered them.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

hellosailor said:


> "B. On surveyors: Your surveyor must go up the mast."
> On what planet?
> As Paul says, I've never met or even heard of a surveyor who goes up the mast. Riggers go up the mast, no one else routinely does. You want a surveyor to go aloft, you call a rigger and get a rigging survey. From a rigger. You want an engine tested, you get an engine survey, from a mechanic. General surveyors don't do detailed engine tests, either.
> A surveyor? Yeah, checks the boat for many things, and doesn't check others. Might tell you there are rats in the rope locker, _won't _tell you how many there are.
> Surveyor up the stick? Yeah, reminds me of why the angel on top of the xmas tree has such a surprised look on her face. (Oooooh!)


Our surveyor went up our mast.


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## BenMerc (Feb 19, 2012)

Shinook said:


> Yea, our CD has some interesting chainplate backings, I basically have to cut the liner to access them. That's the scariest thing we have encountered so far with restoring a 70's boat. It's an easy thing to fix, though, relative to other problems that could be had.


Agree... Chain plate replacement and even structural up-grade is an essential with many vessels! With my old Irwin it was easy access, and the chain plates are adequate for what this old gal is designed for...but when I checked the bolts, the heads popped right off! Was an easy fix...the scary thing was, the guy prior to me was 'racing' her...and also with a depressed, rusted out base compression post...CRAZY!


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## Shinook (Jul 13, 2012)

BenMerc said:


> Also...something I have considered with boats on the hard for extended stays...proper cradle...I hope these insights have helped, if you had not considered them.


They have, thanks. Most of the boats I looked at were in the water, but walking around the yard I've seen a few that looked like they've been on the hard for a long time. It just sparked my curiosity on the effects of the boat being out of the water that long.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

DRFerron said:


> Our surveyor went up our mast.


Yes so did ours. I wouldnt hire one who didnt. He was very thorough with the mast and rigging as well as everything else.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Come on, Dave. Sending his check up the main halyard without a downhaul just isn't fair.

If he went up on his own, he deserves some public praise. By name, you know.


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

As an additional thought on the subject of a 1970s boat, whether to buy one or not really depends on your intended usage.

I am sure we have all known some people whose main purpose for a sailboat is to rarely use it for a coastal / weekend cruises. Perhaps 4 - 6 uses per season. 

Well, in that case, what the Hell! For cheap money you can get into a boat, and have a hobby for years, slowly fixing her up.

But, IMHO, if you want to use her a lot, and, or, have some serious cruising miles in mind, then you would have to factor in some serious restoration efforts.


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## BenMerc (Feb 19, 2012)

Very much agree with that sentiment...


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## Outrageous (Aug 18, 2010)

Despite what HelloSailor and miatapaul posted, here is a surveyor who goes up the mast:

Kent Parker, NAMS , Certified Marine Surveyor, of Parker Marine Consultants, P.O. Box 6648, Napa, CA 94581 (707) 252-9383

Glad to share his reports on the 2 boats he's done for me. Photos from atop the mast, neat climbing gear, etc. Of course this guy built boats and worked on America's Cup boats, so he probably rare - but that's why I picked him. There's one other guy in the Bay Area like him as well.


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## captainbri (Dec 16, 2012)

Some people wont drive a car with a scratch and some drive wrecks. Some people sail the world in boats most of us would not feel safe on in a swimming pool. I have seen 3 or 4 NICE almost perfect boats sell in less than 24 hours at great deals. more boats are sold by someone knowing someone. this is the best way to make a selection imho, im sure you know if your neighbor takes care of his cars and house, boats are the same way.

It is a buyers market if you take your time and invest in looking you can get a great deal.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

I don't think you will have any problem . In many ways boats form that era are far better cruising boats than more "Modern' designs in practical terms.
Check out the sea of Cortes, especially San Carlos for incredibly cheap boats which have been abandoned in a yard there. A friend was offered an Alberg 35 for free there. Check out the cruisers internet chatlines there.


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## Grunfeld (Oct 1, 2011)

I just noticed there are quite a few more comments here than before. Funny I didn’t get the usual email notices of new comments.

Anyway I want to thank all for their comments. Everyone was thoughtful and helpful.

What I take away so far is that the consensus is:

70s boats can still be solid choices if well maintained.

Be prepared for significant maintenance 

My budget should be increased (for maintenance, or newer boat, or both)

Other food for thought. 

Buy smaller, 

look for mid 80s boats for better systems

Survey is important but personal inspection is just as vital

Thanks all


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

paul323;982253 People I know took a modern 'Ikea' boat offshore into some rougher weather said:


> What boat had that problem.


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## copacabana (Oct 1, 2007)

If you can find a 70's boat from a quality builder that someone has lovingly maintained, updated and refurbished (especially for long-distance cruising) then you can't really go wrong. I've seen some deals on boats with a new engine, rigging, sails, batteries & solar panels, wiring, tanks etc. for sale because the owner discovered he didn't like cruising after all. A boat like this can be a great deal. Usually they command a premium price, but nowhere near what was invested in the boat. This is especially true of boats that were produced in large numbers and which have many for sale on the market.

I'm not sure there will be any advantage in buying a boat from the 80's (over the 70's) as they will have all systems at the end of their useful life as well unless someone has replaced them. 

By the same token, a boat (especially a large one) from the 70's or 80's, with lots of old and complex systems that have not been replaced recently will be a constant repair nightmare. I think in this case it is infinitely better to get a simpler recently-revamped old boat or a much newer boat.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Grunfeld said:


> What I take away so far is that the consensus is:
> 
> 70s boats can still be solid choices if well maintained.
> 
> ...


I would also add to the list that an older boat with FEWER systems that work well, is better than the same boat that is loaded up with obsolete or non-functional equipment. Examples are CRT Radar, Loran, Water Maker, Electric Windlasses, Refrigeration.

I saw a lot of boats with broken autopilots, wind generators, non-functional wind instruments, gaping holes cut in a locker to mount the Radar CRT, yet the owners asked for top dollar.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

eherlihy said:


> I would also add to the list that an older boat with FEWER systems that work well, is better than the same boat that is loaded up with obsolete or non-functional equipment. Examples are CRT Radar, Loran, Water Maker, Electric Windlasses, Refrigeration.
> 
> I saw a lot of boats with broken autopilots, wind generators, non-functional wind instruments, gaping holes cut in a locker to mount the Radar CRT, yet the owners asked for top dollar.


Another item to add the that list, esp in higher latitudes, is the installed but non functioning Espar or equivalent.


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## NaviGsr (Sep 17, 2009)

eherlihy said:


> I would also add to the list that an older boat with FEWER systems that work well, is better than the same boat that is loaded up with obsolete or non-functional equipment. Examples are CRT Radar, Loran, Water Maker, Electric Windlasses, Refrigeration.
> 
> I saw a lot of boats with broken autopilots, wind generators, non-functional wind instruments, gaping holes cut in a locker to mount the Radar CRT, yet the owners asked for top dollar.


These are both very good points to keep in mind as you look. I would also reiterate that a boat with new electronics and systems is worth only a pittance more than one without.

The great thing about the current market is that a boat that has been moderately refitted will not sell for much, if anything more, than an original boat _in the same condition_.

The only thing that can justifiably inflate one boat's sale price over a comparable boat right now would be a VERY recent (as in last 5 years) repower.

Don't let the material cost of systems fool you. Anyone can install an expensive chartplotter. Most of the cost of boat maintenance comes from time. Either this is billed by the yard or it is your time stuck on the hard and not cruising. Look for boats that have had the big jobs done. Every model has common problems. Find out what they are and see if they have been addressed.

Things like a redone bottom or keel repair, recored and refinished decks, and new standing rigging, are examples of common jobs on older boats that are infinitely expensive in time. Ask how the job was done so you know if it was done right.

If you are not on a deadline, be patient. The right boat is out there, but only you can know when you've found her!


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