# Questions about Ecowind Four Blade Max-Prop



## GypsyPaula (Sep 14, 2010)

Hey guys, does anyone out there have any experience with the Ecowind Four Blade Max-Prop being offered by PYI? I visited their offices and like the group, and am thinking about adding one of these to a Hylas 49 I am in the process of purchasing. It's a lot more money that the standard Max Props, but technologically it seems a lot more advanced. The prop itself is manufactured in Italy. If the prop acts as advertised it should add significantly more motoring range and a bit more speed without sacrificing sailing speed. And that's the question--will it act as advertised and are there any problems with it. Thanks for any feedback.


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## jimrafford (Jan 7, 2011)

I don't have any experiance w/ the 4 blade but I had a 3 blade max prop on our previous cs36. In general the prop performed well. Drawbacks were a lot of propwalk in reverse and you have to do a short haul to change the pitch.
I've ordered a KIWI prop for the new boat.
Jim


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## GypsyPaula (Sep 14, 2010)

Hi Jim:

Thanks for getting back with me. I checked out the KIWI for comparison, but it is limited to applications under 55 hp. The boat I'm considering purchasing has a 75 hp engine, so the KIWI won't work for me. Interesting though, the overall design of the KIWI is very similar to the Ecowind. I'm still hoping for feedback on experiences using the Ecowind so wish me luck.

Paula


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

jimrafford said:


> I had a 3 blade max prop on our previous cs36. ...you have to do a short haul to change the pitch.


Not true. You are misinformed.


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## skipgundlach (Oct 4, 2002)

Fstbttms said:


> Not true. You are misinformed.


If he has the original model, while you COULD, if VERY careful, disassemble the rear of the hub and change the pitch under water, dropping a part could ruin your day.

You're right about the newer model; I don't know, as I've not bought one recently, but I think both types are available.

The support at PYI is excellent, BTW...

L8R

Skip, happy user of a three-blade, with full power in reverse and no drag while cruising

PS use PropSpeed on it' you'll never have to touch it for at least two years if you apply it properly; stuff just slings off the slick surface. I'm reapplying in my haulout after nearly 4 years in the water, this spring. Well worth the cost...


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

skipgundlach said:


> If he has the original model, while you COULD, if VERY careful, disassemble the rear of the hub and change the pitch under water, dropping a part could ruin your day.


Please. I've done it underwater so many times, I've lost count.


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

Fstbttms said:


> Please. I've done it underwater so many times, I've lost count.


So it must be easy for everyone then?


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

chrisncate said:


> So it must be easy for everyone then?


Not the point. The point is; it is erroneous to claim that a boat must be hauled to repitch a Max Prop. It simply isn't true and the guys at PYI will be the first to tell you so.


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

Fstbttms said:


> Not the point. The point is; it is erroneous to claim that a boat must be hauled to repitch a Max Prop. It simply isn't true and the guys at PYI will be the first to tell you so.


You _are_ technically correct, however for the typical everyday sailor who does not have access to dive equipment, nor the skills to do this job underwater, it's a job typically done in a haul out scenario.

But you already know this I suspect, correct?


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

chrisncate said:


> You _are_ technically correct, however for the typical everyday sailor who does not have access to dive equipment, nor the skills to do this job underwater, it's a job typically done in a haul out scenario.
> 
> But you already know this I suspect, correct?


The typical everyday sailor who does not have access to dive equipment, nor the skills to do this job underwater would normally hire a professional to do a job like this, just as he would hire a mechanic to work on his engine or a rigger to replace his rig. It is cheaper, faster and more convenient to have a skilled, knowlegeble diver do it while the boat is in the water than to haul the friggin' thing for what is essentially a pretty easy job that can be done in an hour or two.

FYI to all- there is almost no prop work that cannot be performed while the boat is in the water and that goes for fixed, feathering or folding props.


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

Fstbttms said:


> The typical everyday sailor who does not have access to dive equipment, nor the skills to do this job underwater would normally hire a professional to do a job like this, just as he would hire a mechanic to work on his engine or a rigger to replace his rig. It is cheaper, faster and more convenient to have a skilled, knowlegeble diver do it while the boat is in the water than to haul the friggin' thing for what is essentially a pretty easy job that can be done in an hour or two.
> 
> FYI to all- there is almost no prop work that cannot be performed while the boat is in the water and that goes for fixed, feathering or folding.


It's not the same as engine work or rigging work, both of those are much more accessible to the lay-person.

In water/under water work is a different realm than the two examples you provided above.


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

chrisncate said:


> It's not the same as engine work or rigging work, both of those are much more accessible to the lay-person.
> 
> In water/under water work is a different realm than the two examples you provided above.


You're splitting hairs for no apparent reason. Repitching a Max Prop underwater is not rocket science and anyone so inclined and had the tools and breathing gear, could do it. Is the average boat owner likely to do this? No. But neither is he likely to rebuild his fuel injectors or install a roller furler by himself. But that doesn't mean it can't be done.


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

Fstbttms said:


> You're splitting hairs for no apparent reason. Repitching a Max Prop underwater is not rocket science and anyone so inclined and had the tools and breathing gear, could do it. Is the average boat owner likely to do this? No. But neither is he likely to rebuild his fuel injectors or install a roller furler by himself. But that doesn't mean it can't be done.


Not the point. The point is; it is erroneous to claim that it's in the same realm as engine work or rigging work, both of those are much more accessible to the lay-person.


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## GypsyPaula (Sep 14, 2010)

All very interesting, but the new technology (Ecowind) is apparently extremely easy to adjust the pitch (allen wrench and a dial) but then does all of the work itself. It is a pretty damn sweet looking prop if it works the way it is advertised. I just didn't know if anyone out there had any actual experience with one yet.


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

GypsyPaula said:


> All very interesting, but the new technology (Ecowind) is apparently extremely easy to adjust the pitch (allen wrench and a dial) but then does all of the work itself. It is a pretty damn sweet looking prop if it works the way it is advertised. I just didn't know if anyone out there had any actual experience with one yet.


What do they go for?


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

GypsyPaula said:


> All very interesting, but the new technology (Ecowind) is apparently extremely easy to adjust the pitch (allen wrench and a dial) but then does all of the work itself. It is a pretty damn sweet looking prop if it works the way it is advertised. I just didn't know if anyone out there had any actual experience with one yet.


It does seem like a neat idea, It'll be interesting to see how it shakes out.


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## Brezzin (Dec 4, 2006)

I'm looking also about changing my fixed 3 blade to the ecowind. They are quite expensive PYI has the price sheet online. I'm hoping the added performance underpower is worth the premium price


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## GypsyPaula (Sep 14, 2010)

Hi Dave:

I went to PYI's site but couldn't find the price sheet. Did did get a rough verbal quote from them but found the P2 Marine sells them for PYI and they do have a price list (which was substantially lower than what PYI intimated. P2 can be found at: Max Prop ECOWIND Props

Where did you find PYI's price sheet on their site?


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

GypsyPaula said:


> Where did you find PYI's price sheet on their site?


http://www.pyiinc.com/images/pdf/max-prop/PYI_Max-Prop_Price_List_2011.pdf


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## jrd22 (Nov 14, 2000)

Yikes! For that price an Autoprop seems reasonable. Fortunately they don't seem to make one for a one and a half inch shaft so I don't need to even think about it. Seems like a definite improvement over the standard Max's loss of thrust because of the straight blades but I'm not sure I like the idea of depending on a spring for my prop to function properly.


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

jrd22 said:


> Yikes! For that price an Autoprop seems reasonable..


Maybe not so much when you take into account Autoprop's propensity for throwing blades. 



jrd22 said:


> Fortunately they don't seem to make one for a one and a half inch shaft so I don't need to even think about it.


Sure they do. Look further along to the right on the price sheet.


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## Brezzin (Dec 4, 2006)

I called PYI today and no they don't have 1.5 inch yet. It's due out in June/July - "Maybe" according to Fred at PYI. 
He did tell me that they are selling better than they ever expected and have yet to see any problems. I'll take that at face value because it's not been on the market for anywhere near a year yet.
So maybe not having one for a 1.5" shaft is a blessing. I'll put my purchase off a year and see what bugs pop up.


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## jimrafford (Jan 7, 2011)

You might want to take a look at Variprop too. I was ready to purchase one before I found Kiwi. 5k for the ecowind is a little steep.
As far as changing the pitch of a maxprop in the water. I have 40 years diving experiance and trying to hold the parts, line up the letters and dots, assuming you can see them and not drop anything. Forget it. For $150 I can do a short haul and be done in 20 mins. That being said I would never buy a maxprop again because it.
The ecowind looks like a much better choice and it's a one piece install but ouch!


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

jimrafford said:


> As far as changing the pitch of a maxprop in the water. I have 40 years diving experiance and trying to hold the parts, line up the letters and dots, assuming you can see them and not drop anything. Forget it.


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## jrd22 (Nov 14, 2000)

Fstbttms said:


> Maybe not so much when you take into account Autoprop's propensity for throwing blades.
> 
> Sure they do. Look further along to the right on the price sheet.


You keep talking about Autoprops throwing blades, and I've read all the threads, I'd like to see some actual, verifiable, numbers of blades thrown. My last boat had one for 15+ years with no trouble, still going strong.

All I see on the price sheet for the Ecowind and 1.5" shaft is "NA".


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

jrd22 said:


> You keep talking about Autoprops throwing blades, and I've read all the threads, I'd like to see some actual, verifiable, numbers of blades thrown. My last boat had one for 15+ years with no trouble, still going strong.


I have personally seen two Autoprops that have thrown blades. I have seen exactly *zero* thrown blades on any other non-fixed prop (and there are a hell of a lot more of them in the water than Autoprop.) Then when you add all the many anecdotes available on this and other forums, also complaining of thrown blades, I'd say the evidence is pretty good that it is an issue. Not to mention that Brunton issued a recall on Autoprop some years ago to supposedly rectify this problem.



jrd22 said:


> All I see on the price sheet for the Ecowind and 1.5" shaft is "NA".


Well, as previously posted, the larger sized Ecowind props are not on the market yet.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Fstbttms said:


> I have personally seen two Autoprops that have thrown blades. I have seen exactly *zero* thrown blades on any other non-fixed prop (and there are a hell of a lot more of them in the water than Autoprop.) Then when you add all the many anecdotes available on this and other forums, also complaining of thrown blades, I'd say the evidence is pretty good that it is an issue. Not to mention that Brunton issued a recall on Autoprop some years ago to supposedly rectify this problem.


Any idea whether those particular props had either been recently serviced, or perhaps hadn't been serviced in a LONG time? Re-assembly of an Autoprop after a bearing replacement/rebuild can be a bit tricky to get right, I can easily imagine an owner or someone not familiar with them getting it wrong&#8230; Or, perhaps, not heeding the warning signs of increased "rumbling", a sign it's time for a reconditioning&#8230; Lots of owners out there who are clueless to that sort of stuff, after all&#8230; Otherwise, I have a tough time imagining a new or properly maintained Autoprop which had not been subject to some sort of impact or damage, throwing a blade for no good reason...

I've been a very satisfied Autoprop user for about a dozen years&#8230; Just replaced the bearings and races for the second time, and should be as good as new again for another few years&#8230;

BTW, the recall from Bruntons was only for a narrow range of their props of a certain size, sold between 1999 and 2002 or thereabouts&#8230;


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## jrd22 (Nov 14, 2000)

Fstbttms;698009
Sure they do. Look further along to the right on the price sheet.[/QUOTE said:


> This is what I was responding to. So I was right that they don't make one for 1.5".


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

jrd22 said:


> So I was right that they don't make one for 1.5".


If you read Breezin's post, you'll see that they do make it that size but it simply isn't available for a few months yet.


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

JonEisberg said:


> Any idea whether those particular props had either been recently serviced, or perhaps hadn't been serviced in a LONG time? &#8230;


Couldn't say. It's been years since these two went bad. I don't remember if I ever knew the history of the two props in question. I just know that what I saw and what I've heard, doesn't happen to other props.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

The Ecowind looks like a very nice prop, no question&#8230; But, it seems to me that some of their performance claims are highly optimistic, all makers of self-pitching props are guilty of this to a certain extent, of course&#8230;

An Ecowind will increase the speed of a 47-footer @ 1900 RPM from 6 knots to 8 over a three blade? They're kidding, right? "&#8230;increase your fuel range by up to 30%."? Again, that sounds exceedingly optimistic, to me&#8230; And, the "much lower engine noise levels" due to running at lower rpms would IMHO be very incremental, at best&#8230;

But the following claim is the one that mystifies me, I'm just not getting this one:



> Higher top speed in rough conditions:
> 
> The heavy load forces the propeller pitch to decrease, letting the engine increase its RPM resulting in more power in the water, meaning more boat speed.


In my experience, the primary advantage to a self-pitching prop in rough conditions is the ability to better maintain the maximum amount of thrust throughout the full range of the boat's motion, and compensating for the shaft angle's deflection from horizontal - that's where a self-pitching prop really shines when motoring or motor-sailing in boisterous conditions&#8230; "Letting the engine increase its RPM"? Hmmm, I don't think so&#8230;

Self-pitching props are great, no question about it, I'm very pleased with mine&#8230; But, I would caution anyone to take some of these claims of increased performance with a grain of salt. Perhaps some of them might come close to being realized on some modern, light designs - but on a more conventional displacement yacht, more heavily laden in cruising trim, probably not so much&#8230;


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

But Jon, it said so on the INTERNET, so it must be true...


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## christyleigh (Dec 17, 2001)

JonEisberg said:


> Self-pitching props are great, no question about it, I'm very pleased with mine&#8230;


 Me too. I put one on my previous C320 for the last 4 years I had it. A member of the old C320 email group did some serious speed trials and pretty much confirmed AutoProp's claims for performance. My NC331 has had an AutoProp for almost 10 years with 4 for the P.O. and 6 for me with nothing but praise for it's performance after thousands of miles of motoring and motorsailing. Motorsailing is where I think the auto featherers really shine to give you the boost you need when you need it.


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## jrd22 (Nov 14, 2000)

I haven't compared the Eco's performance claims against Autoprop, but the Eco is going to be less efficient due to the straight blades vs curved IMO, even with four blades vs three I would think. 
I'm still having a problem with a spring controlling the pitch. It would seem that with the spring forcing the blades to the maximum degree of pitch that only an increase in rpm would flatten them. If you were motoring at a relatively low rpm wouldn't the prop be near maximum pitch and therefore putting much more of a load on the engine? The Autoprop with it's free spinning blades automatically adjusts to rpm and boat speed through the water. Not being an engineer or an expert in fluid dynamics maybe I have this all wrong but any mechanical means of forcing the blades to the maximum pitch seems like it would result in a near continual over pitch condition which would be hard on the engine over time. Maybe the result would be similar to the Autoprop, but free to adjust only relying on centrifugal force (Auto) vs mechanical force and centrifugal force (Eco)are two different things. Thoughts?


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## christyleigh (Dec 17, 2001)

jrd22 said:


> I'm still having a problem with a spring controlling the pitch.


 Ditto. The complexities of the AutoProp fluid dynamics design are of course over my head - but that's done. Now it just sits there and does what it was designed to with out any mechanical intervention or extra parts to fail. Keep it lubed like the multitude of other metal mechanical wonders in our lives and that's it.

As for a blade falling off.... I worry about that as much as a Shark attack in Narragansett Bay, with dying by a lightning strike or in my car the 110 miles to my boat being waaayyy...... above an AutoProp failure.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Stan— for a shark attack, you have to get over to Chatham, where the great white sharks are...Put you in a wetsuit, you'd look a lot like a seal.


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## christyleigh (Dec 17, 2001)

sailingdog said:


> Stan- for a shark attack, you have to get over to Chatham, where the great white sharks are...Put you in a wetsuit, you'd look a lot like a seal.


Yup..... I guess the gray beard and sleeeek body :laugher :laugher would do it. I'll have to remember to wear my polka-dot baggies if I go swimming in that area


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

I just fail to see how any of these props can do anything but increase sailing performance by reducing drag when the motor is OFF 

A lot of what they claim is BAD for a motor as a marine motor needs to be proped to reach its correct RPM and making the thrust to achive the same speed at a much lower RPM goes against one of the big basics


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## P35juniper (Feb 11, 2010)

My take is it will be very important to get the prop set just right for the boat and engine combo for this to work right. It sounds like some type of torque converter.
I've thought why not have a two speed gear box on a boat, one gear for full power and the other for cruising, half the engine speed 2/3 the prop speed, so as at half rpm the engine is a max load,


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## christyleigh (Dec 17, 2001)

tommays said:


> A lot of what they claim is BAD for a motor as a marine motor needs to be proped to reach its correct RPM and making the thrust to achive the same speed at a much lower RPM goes against one of the big basics


Nope ..... don't see it that way. My two boats with an AutoProp would both reach the motor's full rated RPM and also reach Hull Speed. The mid-ranges is where they seem to excel. If it reaches 5kts at 2200 instead of 2400 or whatever (both high revving Yanmars) I see no harm. I certainly agree that if a prop is Over-Pitched - usually with black smoke not being able to reach full RPM or Hull Speed then that is a problem. Actually I have an article from the "Sailing" magazine (afraid to post it for copyrights) which tells about the installation of the AutoProp on My Actual Boat (Kyros then) when the first owner had it. The first one installed WAS Over-Pitched, sent back, and the proper pitched new prop was installed.

Extra..... FWIW=Zero story - I also have a plastisized copy of the article in "Sailing" from a year earlier when the Nauticat 331 was introduced on my boat because again (Kyros then) from Florida was the actual boat in the article. I just had to add that because I didn't even realize it until I took possession. The whole thing was such a trip because I also had that actual 2000 "Sailing" magazine in 2005 shortly before I bought the boat.....but had thrown it away previously in a fit of housecleaning a few months earlier. But I got it back anyway.


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## GypsyPaula (Sep 14, 2010)

Well I managed to get over to PYI's booth at the Miami Boat Show on Monday and lo and behold they had an actual Eco Wind prop on display. Just from looking at it, it is solidly built. The "spring" is interesting it's (be forewarned, this is a non-engineer's description) a spring material ring with slits cut in it. RPM's, water pressure, torque apparently compress the ring which in turn changes the pitch. I too am befuddled by the physical process, which was why I started this tread in the first place to see if anyone had any on hand experience. So far the answer to that (at least on Sail Net) is no. The PYI rep told me that 3 dozen of these props had been sold so far. He also told me that the 1.5 inch shaft version is in testing right now with plans for it to be available for sail starting in June. The price for the 1.5 by the way will be closer to $7,200 not the $5,600 for the smaller shaft.

I also got to look at the VariProfile 4 blade prop, which was a sweet little package, but doesn't portend to really increase efficiency or power motoring forward, which was what I was looking for primarily.

So now I am totally confused and have decided to leave the fixed three on for the time being.


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## Brezzin (Dec 4, 2006)

Wow- 7200.00 for a the 1 1/2 shaft. That's difficult nut to swallow. With a standard Max-Prop for half of that. I really have to ask myself now if the greater speed at lower RPM (a claim yet to be verified) is worth the that kind of money to me.


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