# Diesel-electric hybrid



## deckofficer (Feb 18, 2012)

Searching for you folks that have already converted to diesel electric. My plans are for a 48 volt propulsion/house bank, 48 volt inverter, and diesel DC gen set. I am comfortable with electrics, have designed, built, and raced EVs.


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## Rockter (Sep 11, 2006)

Unless you are planning to run submerged, I would not bother.

Every time you change energy from one form to another, you will suffer losses. Batteries, particularly lead-acid accumulators, are notoriously innefficient at storing energy, and recovering it again.

Diesel-electrics are often seen on rail locomotives, largely because of coupling issues as it is so difficult to get drive to multiple wheels with mechanical drive.

But on a sailboat??? Your diesel engine will give you about 40+% efficiency, and the tank fuel will take you far further than the most massive of battery banks, battery banks that slowly lose poke as they are cycled.

And what size of generator are you going to need for (say) 35 hp at the prop?

I warn you too, with seawater-wet hands, 48 V will make life very exciting for you. It is exciting enough with nominal 12 V. Try it.
.


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## LakeSuperiorGeezer (Oct 8, 2010)

50 volts can be lethal


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## deckofficer (Feb 18, 2012)

The displacement at cruise weight will only be 8500~9000 lbs, so electric propulsion will only need to be in the 8~12Kw range. I hope to not even use the diesel much, but as a cruiser I want the option of running from a storm for days, not hours. The diesel gen set will output DC for charging only, because it would be much heavier (and redundant) for it to be a typical 120/240 VAC 60 Hertz unit when a 48 volt input inverter is part of the system. A hybrid system such as this has a lot of advantages. 

1) weight placement flexible for better balance and trim
2) The low rpm torque capabilities of an electric motor for tight quarter maneuvering is sweet.
3) The weight is an even wash with the components I've sourced.
4) I've always wanted a fully electric galley, from the induction cook top all the way to the 1500 watt rail mounted BBQ.
5) Even the dinghy will be electric, never have been a fan of gasoline and propane.
6) I have a personal reason too, the DC diesel gen set can be fueled with renewable fuels, and after working in the oil industry, I have a strong disdain for them and their product.

So, I'm doing it, no need to try and talk me out of it. Is there anyone on the forum who has also converted over to diesel-electric hybrid drive?


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## knothead (Apr 9, 2003)

deckofficer said:


> The displacement at cruise weight will only be 8500~9000 lbs, so electric propulsion will only need to be in the 8~12Kw range. I hope to not even use the diesel much, but as a cruiser I want the option of running from a storm for days, not hours. The diesel gen set will output DC for charging only, because it would be much heavier (and redundant) for it to be a typical 120/240 VAC 60 Hertz unit when a 48 volt input inverter is part of the system. A hybrid system such as this has a lot of advantages.
> 
> 1) weight placement flexible for better balance and trim
> 2) The low rpm torque capabilities of an electric motor for tight quarter maneuvering is sweet.
> ...


That's a good point. The ability to heat water, power winches, make water, heck even use an electric blanket. All while carrying only one kind of fuel. 
I would definitely sacrifice a little power to be able to have the convenience of all the extras. 
Plus, I bet it would be a lot easier and less trouble to maintain or replace a small generator rather than an inboard diesel.


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## deckofficer (Feb 18, 2012)

It would still be a single inboard diesel, but instead of a 500+ lb hunk of iron to produce 14Kw AC, it would be less than 300 lbs for the same output at DC charging voltages.


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## robmo (Feb 7, 2012)

Hey deckofficer, I've been around boats for 40 years and reading about the system that you are describing, it seems to me that you will be in a world of hurt in the short run. When it comes to boats I firmly believe in the KISS method. You're sitting in a fiberglass tub surrounded by saltwater and its always humid with a fog of salt. When it comes to boats Murphy was absolutely right. What's more if you're in a sailboat, sail the damned thing, that's how you get better at it. Installing complicated systems in a boat takes you away from what you should be doing with it.....sailing. I owned a J24 for nine years and I think we used the kicker three times and then only because we had to. 

Anyway, good luck with all that....I think you'll need it.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

I am intrigued and would lovbe to find an alternative propulsion system. One of my friends is interested in converting also to a mastervolt system similar to what you are describing.

So a generator and the large battery bank only weighs 300 lbs? Explain how you come up with that figure?

Dave


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## deckofficer (Feb 18, 2012)

robmo said:


> Hey deckofficer, I've been around boats for 40 years and reading about the system that you are describing, it seems to me that you will be in a world of hurt in the short run. When it comes to boats I firmly believe in the KISS method. You're sitting in a fiberglass tub surrounded by saltwater and its always humid with a fog of salt. When it comes to boats Murphy was absolutely right. What's more if you're in a sailboat, sail the damned thing, that's how you get better at it. Installing complicated systems in a boat takes you away from what you should be doing with it.....sailing. I owned a J24 for nine years and I think we used the kicker three times and then only because we had to.
> 
> Anyway, good luck with all that....I think you'll need it.


I'd much rather sail too. The systems are not complicated, just different. This is for a PDQ 36, that isn't the LRC, but lets say it is the LRC. (3) diesels, (2) for propulsion when needed, and all the through hulls for that, one for running high wattage AC appliances at 120/240 60 cycle. All I am doing by going with the non LRC model is swapping (2) Yamaha 9.9 gasser outboards with electric outboards, and instead of having a heavy gen set for AC, going to a much lighter gen set for DC only to charge the propulsion/house batteries as they need it. I hope to not even run the DC gen set much, with solar panels and regen from either motor if left in the down position while under sail.


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## robmo (Feb 7, 2012)

You wrote "running high wattage AC appliances at 120/240 60 cycle"

Whoa, so what you're telling me is that you're sailing a condominium, Hmmmmmm. I guess my general advice is falling on deaf ears. I once knew some folks who owned a Bristol 36 with all the bells and whistles...hell, I think the thing even sported a trash compactor. Anyway, they loved that boat until it started to s_it the bed on a regular basis and they spent many a beautiful weekend tied to the dock trying to fix the trash compactor or whatever, rather than sail. They never did learn how to sail that damned thing. 

Bon chance, my friend.


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## deckofficer (Feb 18, 2012)

Maybe I'm not explaining my intentions very well. I love to sail, and on my old Cal 40 had minimum systems to contend with. I'm quite a bit older now and like certain creature comforts. I don't want or need a trash compactor, washer-dryer, etc., but do want a microwave (who doesn't) and a REAL watermaker that doesn't require constant membrane replacement, noisy, and low output of the 12 VDC types that are available. This means clean, reliable AC power, which is what pure sine wave inverters are for. Plus on the efficiency side, a diesel engine with its weak kneed torque curve is very inefficient at any rpm other than at the peak torque rpm. An electric motor is efficient through out its operating rpm range. The last ship (rig) I served on was a 32,000 ton off-shore drill ship that I held position over the hole with (6) 5000 hp electric motors. I had (7) 4.6 Mw generators that ran at their torque peak of 900 rpm (also divisible by 60 for frequency). If enviormental loads where high, i.e. 40 kt wind and 3 kt current, I could burn 1,000 gallons of diesel per hour to hold position. That may not sound efficient, but believe me if not diesel electric, it would consume much more, but again it couldn't be done without the low rpm torque of an electric motor. An electric has all available torque at 0 rpm, no IC engine can even come close.

To address Chef2Sail question on weight, it is expensive to keep the weight down, as you need to use LiFePO4 batteries. These cells, with proper care will have a 5000 cycle life at 80% DOD, so at my age, will outlast me. The diesel gen set is a large weight saver if you chose a unit that is a PM DC output over a conventional AC gen set.

This is a picture of that ship (rig) I described. Unlike Captain "Showboat" Schettino, my ship is butt ugly, so no need to salute an island with it. It is a diesel-electric hybrid, but mine will be scaled down a bit.


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## Chkm8 (May 6, 2009)

Hi, I guess you will be using ... lifp04 lite weight batteries and are you thinking of the Ausie elect outboards? .. Paul


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## Chkm8 (May 6, 2009)

I missed part of your message why not 48 volt high toque water maker only buy motor ONCE


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## robmo (Feb 7, 2012)

Hi Bob,

Who are you buying the Li-ion bats from? Be careful with those things,remember what happened to the Chevy Volt. Those danged things will burn.

Cheers,

Scott


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## deckofficer (Feb 18, 2012)

There are a number of electric outboards currently available with new ones coming to market. The Torqeedo 4.0, a 4Kw unit from Germany is expensive and they are missing the boat (no pun intended) by not having regen. The amount of thrust matches a 9.9, which is what is used on PDQ 36s. AquaWatt outboards have the physical dimensions of a 9.9 and come in two flavors, a 13Kw (a pair of these are over kill on the PDQ) and a 23Kw.

aquawatt green power electric outboard motors

Note the weight difference between these DC gen sets vs an AC gen set. You won't find an 8Kw AC diesel gen set for 290 lbs like this DC unit.

http://www.propulsionmarine.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/8-KW-Polar-DC-Marine-Brochure.pdf


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## deckofficer (Feb 18, 2012)

robmo said:


> Hi Bob,
> 
> Who are you buying the Li-ion bats from? Be careful with those things,remember what happened to the Chevy Volt. Those danged things will burn.
> 
> ...


I have bought from these folks before building EVs. And these batteries are not the type with thermal issues.
Thundersky Lithium Batteries


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## larrytwo (Aug 31, 2011)

Intresting and informative thread. Thanks. A freind was telling me about a electric sail drive out now that charges back into it's system when sailing. Motor/generator? can't remember the make darn it. check this one out... Vetus Electric Drive EP2200 - French Marine Motors Ltd


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## deckofficer (Feb 18, 2012)

larrytwo said:


> Intresting and informative thread. Thanks. A freind was telling me about a electric sail drive out now that charges back into it's system when sailing. Motor/generator? can't remember the make darn it. check this one out... Vetus Electric Drive EP2200 - French Marine Motors Ltd


It is a hot emerging market with new players at every turn. It is too bad the Lagoon 420 series offered with electric drive was a rushed concept that some owners have pulled the motors and replaced with diesels.


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## BCC1 (Dec 18, 2011)

robmo said:


> I guess my general advice is falling on deaf ears.


Unrequested, unrequited, unhelpful....advice.:laugher


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## Ulladh (Jul 12, 2007)

I applaud your approach, and while I am not ready for the leap to electric sailboat motors it will take you and others to keep plugging at making it work for the rest of us.

I have an on-line friend in SF Bay who has converted a 25ft double-ender to a 48volt electric system recharging at dock and reports usable power to the electric motor for at least 8hrs.


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## jimrafford (Jan 7, 2011)

I chartered one of the Lagoon hybrid drives a few years back. Loved it! To be able to move w/o firing up a motor was fun. The genset was very quiet when fired up.
I have been researching converting our boat when the volvo becomes an anchor. 
Please keep us informed
Jim


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## deckofficer (Feb 18, 2012)

Ulladh,

Thanks for your support, I still hope to find folks here that have already converted. On CF, there are 6 that are active on the forum, and most are cats. They were able to confirm my theory that the high torque at rpms that a diesel can't even idle at, would make tight quarters maneuverability child's play. So I guess all the bar patrons at the marina will have less entertainment watching boats at the docks trying to pirouette into position.


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## deckofficer (Feb 18, 2012)

Jim,

Did you also discover how the electric motors allow precision maneuverability, so you always look polished to on-lookers as you pull in?

I will keep you posted because for me it is a combination of loving sailing, hating the oil companies, and designing and racing EVs. For the EVs, quiet power is a rush, and a real head turner.


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## Rockter (Sep 11, 2006)

Jim :

_I will keep you posted because for me it is a combination of loving sailing, hating the oil companies, and designing and racing EVs. For the EVs, quiet power is a rush, and a real head turner. _

Your attitude to oil companies surprises me, and is somewhat alienating.

You are typiing on a plastic keyboard, looking at a plastic screen, on a varnished desk, pictured in a motor vehicle painted with oil-based paint, driving on roads finished with bitumen, owning a sailboat made from polyester resins painted with petroleum products, living in a house painted with petroleum and plastics everywhere, planning a hybrid propulsion that will not move without a petroleum-driven generator... and you hate oil companies????

Take your hatred of oil companies a step further and stop using petroleum.

Give it a go.


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## Telesail (Dec 28, 2011)

*Hybrids and hating oil companies*

"hate" is a strong word but, using it is the same way as deckofficer, I hate X Factor but still find myself drawn to the train-wreck-slowly-unfolding nature of the show.

Anyhow, he did not say he hates oil, probably just the way in which companies active in that business conduct themselves. I doubt it is a rationally thought through opinion so much as a visceral sense that helps justify an otherwise admirable plan to test the limits of providing power to a sailboat.

I have a friend who is trying what deckofficer proposes and will ask for some feedback on his success. I do know that he found the regen to cut into performance more than he expected, because instead of the propeller spinning free, it was dragging with resistance - he reckoned he lost 2 kts. May be worth exploring whether regen through your motor is more of a parasitic load than a wind generator up above - which is what I think he ended up with.

400 watts of solar panels was way too expensive but I recall that he did not have a huge capacity to charge so solar might have worked if it was cheaper (and no parasitic load). The main benefit was the efficiency of the generator operating at optimum versus a diesel operating outside its efficient range.

I will post anything else I find out, or better still, persuade him to join sailnet if he is not already a member - I am new to this "social media" thing so coming to sailnet late in my sailing life (although hopefully with more life left in me than a new lithium ion pack)


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

deck, how large will the battery bank need to be, dimensionally, to do everything you want it to do?


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## deckofficer (Feb 18, 2012)

44.8" X 7.17" X 10.98" 196.8 lbs. 9.2 Kw/hr 48 volt bank. I come by my attitude towards oil companies honestly, I used to work for them. I will have lots of solar since China has entered the market and driven the cost down to $1.13 per watt from the $5+ per watt I last paid.

As to drag, the water medium does not care if your using energy for propulsion or receiving energy from being propelled by your sails. The folks that are using diesel-electric drive just run the motors to match what they calculated their boat speed to be for the conditions. Nice thing about doing that, you are assured of your ETA to anchorage, and depending on if you under estimated or over estimated, your battery bank will have less or more SOC when you arrive. Plus, you have the option as you near landfall, if you know you will be on the hook for awhile, just back the pots down, induce more drag, and fully top off the battery bank.


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## Telesail (Dec 28, 2011)

Nobody suggesting dishonest hatred of oil companies. However, not worth discussing further since that is off topic.

I am not sure I understood the relevance of your second point. You seem to be saying that if you run the motor consistent with the speed you think you are going, then at least you know when you will get there and that if you calculated right then your level of charge will be unchanged at the end of the voyage. ie you did not charge the batteries

My friend was trying to harness the kinetic energy of the boat to charge the batteries so he had maneuvring power at his arrival without expending diesel to provide it. Converting kinetic energy into electrical energy without a loss of boat speed compared to letting the prop spin free (since the mass stays constant for all practical purposes) results in drag which slows the boat. In the limiting case, a prop stall, you will see the difference it makes to your boat speed. A wind turbine or (as you rightly say, now cheaper) solar cells result in less parasitic load. He went for the former -- a wind turbine.


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## Rockter (Sep 11, 2006)

Telesail :

If oil company bashing is off topic then keep it off-topic.

I see it too often, and on this website.

I am an oil engineer, and I hear no complaint AT ALL when the users of petroleum drive into their station forecourt and fill up their Suburban to the cap with petroleum, then drive off towing their boat with no thought at all as to the men and women that put it there.

When the oil men and women DIE putting it there, and 11 of them did last summer, all I hear is high-volume oil-company bashing about oil on beaches.

If you don't like petroleum, then don't use it.

I am going to have the last laugh watching you try, and I can tell you that our oil-company-hating friend there with his diesel electric won't get far without it.

So let's all stay on topic then, shall we?, and leave oil-company bashing to those that don't use petroleum.
.


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## Telesail (Dec 28, 2011)

The off topic bit was whether deck's hatred was dishonest or not. I personally think he is misguided and generalizing from some specific experience. I am not an oil company basher -- quite the opposite. Happy to have a discussion about the social and economic good that the oil and gas industry provides (and the occasions on which it falls short of its standards) compared to many alternative energy schemes.

However, I was trying to respond to the point about no loss of speed from regenerative charging rather than arguing with someone whose mind is obviously made up about why he feels the way he does.


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## deckofficer (Feb 18, 2012)

Ok, sorry folks, I should have never expressed my disdain for the oil industry. I used to work in the industry and didn't care too much for the corporate attitude. I will be careful to stay on topic so that others who have converted and folks thinking about converting don't have to wade through the distractions.


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## knothead (Apr 9, 2003)

Now this sounds good. I usually don't read the Newsreader threads, but I like this one.

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/news-...oves-road-water-southern-maryland-online.html

Hybrid Technology Moves from Road to Water - Southern Maryland Headline News



> A 36-foot sailboat with a traditional diesel engine can go 350 miles on 50 gallons of fuel, according to Elco Motor Yachts, a New York company that makes electric boat engines. The same boat with a hybrid system can go more than three times as far -- 1,100 miles -- with the same amount of fuel, according to the company.





> Unlike with a traditional diesel boat engine, the electric motor warms up instantly.
> 
> "It's all electronic, it's all computerized. You turn the key and it's ready to go. Instant torque," Reuther said.
> 
> There is no vibration, no noise and no smoke from the motor.


I'm not sure how accurate the numbers are, but even if they are exaggerated, it still sounds like quite an improvement over straight diesel. 
Combined with the other advantages, it may be something to consider. Though the price is always the deciding factor.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

deckofficer said:


> I will be careful to stay on topic so that others who have converted and folks thinking about converting don't have to wade through the distractions.


Thanks for that Officer.
I think what you are doing is very interesting.

Another benefit to your plan that may not have been mentioned is that your diesel should last practically for ever. Can I assume it will either be off or running at optimal load? If so it is stark contract to a normal sailboat auxiliary that is typically running at anything but optimal load. While I doubt that you will pick up all conversion losses by running at optimum load 100 percent of the time I suspect you will pick up a significant percent of them.

Another potential benefit is that the diesel can be easily insulated for sound.

Another benefit is that you may be able to locate it in such a way that access is easy.

As you said it is different and because it is different it will have advantages and disadvantages not necessarily predictable from the start.

You sound like the guy to make it happen and please document the process we are interested.
If you don't mind please let us know what parts you are currently considering:

Electric Drive motor
Prop
Generator
Battery's models 
Charge controllers
Monitoring 
Inverter
Expected loads
Boat model, displacement and year so we have it all in one place.
Anything I have missed

If you go through all the trouble of outlining the sources, costs, models, weight, calculations etc for your current candidate parts in one place I for one would be willing to help in researching optional components and things to think about. Also other sailnet members may have experience with specific parts even if used in a more traditional way.

If you don't want to be bothered I understand but there are some very talented people here and maybe it would be worth your time even if you get just one good idea. 
Also I have the ABYC book so can look stuff up if you don't have it and my son just passed the ABYC electrical exam so I can hit him up for what is the current thinking.

If you don't know of these guys you may find some information from them.
I find the format prehistoric as opposed to a standard forum but yahoo groups has a feed for electric boats that has been around for many years.
[email protected]


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## deckofficer (Feb 18, 2012)

The PDQ 36 non-lrc is powered by (2) 9.9 gas outboards, these would be replaced with electric outboards with the same static thrust. Gen sets for AC are very heavy for their output, plus not near as efficient as a diesel DC gen set. 8Kw and under 300 lbs http://www.propulsionmarine.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/8-KW-Polar-DC-Marine-Brochure.pdf

Lead acid propulsion and house batteries too heavy but Lithium in a 48 volt bank can be used for both when teamed with a 48 volt inverter. Magnum MS-4448PAE 48 VDC 4400-watt 48VDC to 120/240VAC sinewave Inverter

Pretty easy stuff, and the rewards are no gas or propane, fully electric galley, electric dinghy, and if need arises, being able to motor for the entire duration of fuel on board. No rocket science at all, and since I already have built and raced EVs, I'm familiar with motors, controllers, batteries, and know the vendors.


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## RXBOT (Sep 7, 2007)

Rather than electric outboards I would look at the pod type drives, there is probably gear reduction in the outboards you may not need. If you can devise a way that the pods lift out of the water when regenerative is not needed would be very beneficial. Pod type motors are usually light and streamlined. Running a diesel at its optimum rpm constantly is the best way to go nevermind those times when you do not even have to start it to depart or return to harbour. Good luck with your venture.


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## deckofficer (Feb 18, 2012)

The electric outboards I'm looking at have power tilt plus a PDQ already is designed for outboards on all models except the LRC. Less thru hull fittings, no drag if regen isn't needed.


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## deckofficer (Feb 18, 2012)

Article from 2 years ago.

Taking


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

Am I correct in concluding that hybrid power on a catamarans has taken off faster than with mono because of the need for two motors on the cat.
If you can have one diesel and two electric motors there is a automatic savings over having two diesel motors.
That probably almost equals out the complexity.
The numbers wouldn't work out nearly so well with a mono would they?

These guys seem to be deep into hybred work:
http://www.submarineboat.com/hybrid_electric.htm


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## deckofficer (Feb 18, 2012)

davidpm said:


> Am I correct in concluding that hybrid power on a catamarans has taken off faster than with mono because of the need for two motors on the cat.
> If you can have one diesel and two electric motors there is a automatic savings over having two diesel motors.
> That probably almost equals out the complexity.
> The numbers wouldn't work out nearly so well with a mono would they?
> ...


What you said plus cats are weight placement sensitive. Much better to have a 30 lb electric aft in each ama vs a 350 lb diesel. To be able to maneuver within the footprint of the boat with single digit rpm because you can with the low rpm torque of an electric is just icing on the cake. Soon, you will hear the comment "I've been hanging on the hook for two weeks, rather than fire up the gen set, I'll just go for a short day sail to charge up the house bank".


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## klem (Oct 16, 2009)

knothead said:


> Now this sounds good. I usually don't read the Newsreader threads, but I like this one.
> 
> http://www.sailnet.com/forums/news-...oves-road-water-southern-maryland-online.html
> 
> ...


As another poster has brought up, these numbers must not be an apples to apples comparison. The diesel engine must have been run either at idle or been significantly oversized and run at WOT pushing the boat at hull speed while the hybrid was run at optimal. That, or the diesel setup must have had a big problem like improper gearing/prop or something.

In my opinion, a hybrid system can almost never be justified for a sailboat based on efficiency alone. There are other reasons to do it such as where there is confined space, need for multiple propellers, weight placement issues, need for torque at really low rpm, etc. However, you will almost always end up with a less efficient system.

There are 2 types of hybrids, series and parallel. Series (ie Chevy Volt) have an engine driving a generator to produce electricity and then another motor that converts that back to shaft power at the point of use. This system can have an accumulator (usually batteries) or not depending on the design. Parallel (Toyota Prius) have both the engine and motor/generator coupled to the driveshaft. The motor is there to add a bit of extra oomph and to charge back up the accumulator which is necessary in this system.

A diesel engine's efficiency can be defined by the rpm and load on the engine. At higher rpm, the parisitics go up a bit as does airflow which means that you get larger pressure drop over the valves but leakage goes down. At higher load, parisitics become a smaller percentage of the total power and complete combustion becomes less likely. Most diesel engines have a maximum WOT efficiency at an rpm that is very close to where the torque peak is. As load is decreased, the most efficient rpm will decrease. However, since a sailboat runs close to full load at all rpm, the maximum efficiency point correlates to closer to 70% of rated rpm. Note, this is the efficiency of the engine only and ignores the changes in prop efficiency and hull drag as the speed changes. Also, it is worth noting that this is the point at which most diesel engines are operated at in a boat.

With a series hybrid, you still have an engine running at a similar rpm and load so the efficiency will be similar. The problem is that you then convert the shaft power to electrical power, possibly send it into an accumulator, send it through a controller and then convert it back to shaft power. Each conversion along the way represents a drop in efficiency. An example might be 90%(generator)*95% (controller)*90%(motor)=77% which means you lost 23% of the energy to heat somewhere. This is a little bit simplistic because it ignores a few very small losses and the reverse gear versus belt that is normally present in an electric drive but it shows that the more energy conversions, the worse off you are. Another way to look at it would be if you have a 30hp engine and no accumulators, you would only have 23hp if you had a series hybrid. The efficiency gap gets even worse when you throttle back since the diesel engine will decrease in rpm whereas the diesel engine in the hybrid will continue to run at the same rpm in most cases to maintain the proper charging voltage. One way to get around the efficiency drop is to make a plug-in hybrid where you have accumulators which are charged by the grid and the engine is only there for range extension. This system could make sense for people who do not motor very far and have regular access to shore power but it is really a range extended electric drive system, not a hybrid.

A parallel hybrid works by having both the engine and motor generator coupled directly to the shaft. In normal cruising mode for a boat, this would mean that only the engine would be operational. If you operated the motor, you would deplete your batteries and then need to recharge them using the engine which would be less efficient due to all of the energy conversions. The reason that these work in cars is that cars operate in transient states a lot of the time instead of at steady state. During acceleration, the motor is used allowing the engine to be smaller and during braking the motor acts as a generator and reclaims some of the energy that would otherwise be dissipated as heat by the brakes. In boats, you will never make regen work except when sailing in a good breeze with the prop spinning the generator you can get a bit. The one advantage that I can see to a hybrid in this case is the ability to have a slightly smaller engine which runs at almost WOT during normal cruising and uses the electric motor for a bit of extra power for very brief periods.

In my opinion, the only way to claim greater efficiency from a hybrid is to get your energy from something other than diesel fuel such as an enormous amount of solar or wind or shore power. These hybrids are really more similar to electric drives with a small generator for range extension. Diesel propulsion in sailboats is really not too bad as it stands if you accept that internal combustion engines have poor efficiency regardless.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

klem said:


> ...
> 
> In my opinion, a hybrid system can almost never be justified for a sailboat based on efficiency alone. ....


Great post.

We all know that almost all ships have diesel electric propulsion and that many changed their traditional diesel engines for economy sake. So diesel- electric can be more efficient.

Regarding small sailboats I agree with you, not based on knowing as much as you seem to know about the subject but by simple observation of the market:

Six years ago I was really interested in Diesel-electrics for sail boats and some of the major boat manufacturers were too: Bavaria and Benetau were conducted extensive research on that area and it seemed that the future was there. Fisher Panda was also investing a lot on that area. But it was a flop. I guess that the costs of a system for a small sailboat could not compensate any gain in lesser costs in fuel, and there was also the aggravated weight problem that a big battery bank represents for a sailboat.

Regards

Paulo


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## deckofficer (Feb 18, 2012)

The above reply is well thought out and quite true. There are many scenarios that by the type of use by the operator your efficiency goes up. Example, your boat is inland on a narrow waterway and you always have to motor to get to the good sailing area, so say 10 miles motoring for a nice full day of sailing and then returning those 10 miles to your slip. Total, 20 miles using the motor but zero fuel consumption because during the first part of sailing you were regen, letting the energy captured in the sails top off the charge of the batteries. At the end of the day your on shore power.

Now for the cruiser, you let the low pressure system pass before starting on your next passage, so the winds have abated but the sea state still has those huge swells. Your not a fan of deploying a drogue, and with electric propulsion you don't have to. With the wind speed and direction, you figure to average say 8.5 kts (you have a light cat), so you set motor revs for that speed. As you climb a swell, instead of losing speed, energy is pulled from the batteries and you maintain speed. On the back side of the swell, instead of picking up speed with the chance of pitch poling, your speed is kept in check and your returning electrons back into the battery. My friends that have this system silently motor-sail most the time, allowing predictable ETAs to anchorage.

While on the hook, your solar is adequate to provide your needs even with an electric galley, but for two weeks you have been a very social animal (again, your on a cat) and have entertained guests most every night. The batteries are at 70% DOD, and you decide instead of running the gen-set, you'll just enjoy a day sail instead and top off the batteries.

So, I admit, with the up and down conversions, efficiency is lower, but the flexibilty of the system allows you to reclaim lost efficiency and then some.


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## klem (Oct 16, 2009)

deckofficer,

I agree with what you are saying but I would argue that you are really making an electric drive system as opposed to a hybrid. It could technically be called a series hybrid but it isn't really used that way. I guess that we need to agree on a definition of efficiency to work with. You could define efficiency in terms of gallons of diesel used, joules of energy used, tons of CO2 emitted, total lifecycle CO2, cost of fuel, total lifetime cost, etc.

The drive system that I specifically responded to made a distance claim that to me looked like there only fuel source was diesel and that they did not plug into shore power. If the only fuel source is diesel, for a system of this size I would argue that the straight diesel propulsion system will actually get better fuel economy if both are optimized. If they did plug into shore power, then it is not a fair comparison at all. In terms of diesel consumed, yes you would get a big difference but if you rank by total emissions or cost, the difference won't be nearly that large.

Electric drive systems will typically be on the order of 70% efficient in this size range including the charger, batteries, controller, motor. The power plant that will power them will be on the order of 50% efficient with a 5% transmission loss giving an overall efficiency from fuel to propulsion of 33%. A diesel engine in this size range will be on the order of 30% efficient at a typical operating point. This is not a fair comparison though because the fuel sources are almost always different. Another way to look at it is that electric cars are given an mpge rating which shows them to be roughly twice as efficient as gas powered ones. Regardless, straight electric propulsion systems tend to be more efficient in large part because the power plants convert the energy from the fuel at a much higher rate than an engine which loses it as heat out of the radiator and exhaust.

Figuring out how hybrids do from an environmental standpoint is incredibly difficult and has way too many assumptions. Using power generated by powerplants tends to be good because it is easier to put pollution control devices on these large plants and you have a selection of fuel sources. The extra components necessary is bad because of the embodied energy that went into making them and the energy required to recycle them. Straight electric cars can stack up quite well depending on the batteries and how they are recycled but hybrids don't do as well because of their shear complexity.

Have you done calculations on how much solar you would need and the sort? The reason that I ask is that if you do significant motoring, I doubt that solar or regen or anything like that is going to be able to keep up with your demands for charging. Taking a 30' sailboat that wants to motor at close to hull speed, I would guess that 5KWe would be required from the batteries. Motoring for 10 hours, you would discharge your battery bank by 50KWhrs (this is a big bank). If you had 5X100W (I don't quite know where you would fit all of these) panels without tracking and you assume 8 hours of full output equivalent in the middle of summer in southern new england, you get 4KWhrs of charging each day. That means that your 10 hour run would take 12.5 days to recharge from at 100% charging efficiency. Even plugged into shore power, it would take 20 hours at 100% charging efficiency on a 30A circuit.

I am intrigued by your comments in regards to using the motor in a seaway. I would assume that the system controls on constant voltage so that prop speed is constant? Also, this would require a propeller with very little slip or the speed difference of the boat would need to be very high. If the slip was higher, then the motor would just output less as it went down the face of a wave. Unfortunately, it is still always going to take more energy to move in these conditions rather than on calm water due to the hull being less efficient through the water.

I am certainly not trying to talk you out of your conversion, I just was pointing out that the numbers in the article linked were simply not fair regardless of how they got them. Hybrid cars have shown some improvement in mileage over their gasoline counterparts but I refuse to believe that boats will see large mileage improvements unless there are large amounts of energy going into the system other than that contained by the liquid fuel. Since solar and wind have such low output compared to a drive system, either the system needs to be used only occasionally or shore power must be used. The way that I use my boat, it wouldn't work for me.


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## deckofficer (Feb 18, 2012)

klem,

I don't think I gave a link that had high claims, maybe someone else did. My goal is to cruise on a minimum carbon footprint and not have gas or propane on board. To do this, the galley needs to be all electric, from efficient induction stove top all the way to the 1500 watt BBQ on the railing. The dinghy needs to be electric (and I know this works very well), and everything needs to be tied into a high storage, combination propulsion/house bank of lithium batteries. I have built a number of off grid systems for remote homes and prefer a battery bank above the common 12 volt system to reduce current on the DC side. That single 1500 watt BBQ, powered by an inverter at 12 volts would pull 125 amps on the DC side. Combine that with any other appliance that might be on at the same wattage and now the draw is 250 amps. Short, heavy cables can handle that load, but you always have to make sure connections are torqued correctly and with the constant expansion from heat at that current draw, it is a constant maintenance issue. Folks still do this on their boats because they want to stay with a 12 volt DC system powering the inverter. If you go to 48 volts, which IMHO is the minimum voltage for a propulsion bank to power a <10,000 lb boat, then all your DC inverter currents are 1/4 of that of the 12 volt inverter system. The above 250 amp, wire and connector heating current has been reduced to 62.5 amps, and no more connection maintenance issues.


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## klem (Oct 16, 2009)

deckofficer,

The claims that I was referring to were the ones in the link in knothead's post which made a range claim of 350 miles with a normal diesel and 1100 with a hybrid. I probably shouldn't have addressed the post directly to you, it was more general.

Agreed on getting the voltage up to increase efficiency and decrease cable size. I actually have melted a few battery terminals and they have gone through the case despite the cables being up to the task and all connections clean and torqued. Like you, I have done a few solar systems as well as well as building 3 all electric vehicles and 2 hybrid racecars. I also used to work as an R&D engineer designing reciprocating air compressors which are essentially diesel engines without a fuel system.

Good luck with your project.


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## deckofficer (Feb 18, 2012)

To answer the 2nd part of your question, yes I have calculated solar requirements. The off-grid homes I've done in the past was before China entered the solar market and I was paying over $5 per watt for the panels. Today, that has dropped to $1.13 per watt. The dinghy davit/arch would never be used to hold the dinghy on any passage, as I always strap it to the deck except for short hops in good conditions. This leaves it as the prime spot (no shadows) for the solar array and can support (4) 245 watt, 24 volt (30.8 volt output) panels. At the close to 6Kw/hr per day output, it should allow for most all house loads during the day and night except for AC, which could still be run but would require running the diesel DC gen-set for a couple of hours every other day. This is the link you might have missed, and that is the efficient and light weight DC output only gen sets. How does 8Kw of charging (at 60.8 volts and 132 amps) and weighing less than 300 lbs sound? That is lighter by over 200+ lbs than a 8 Kw AC gen-set. 8 KW Polar DC Marine Generator | Propulsion Marine


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## deckofficer (Feb 18, 2012)

klem said:


> deckofficer,
> 
> The claims that I was referring to were the ones in the link in knothead's post which made a range claim of 350 miles with a normal diesel and 1100 with a hybrid. I probably shouldn't have addressed the post directly to you, it was more general.
> 
> ...


We are birds of a feather, I also have (3) EVs, one is a stake bed truck that I converted, the other was for racing, and the third was built in China, and is a Smart Car knockoff, fully electric. My vehicles are on the EV forum.










I almost forgot my dinghy transportable, land vehicle. 0~40 mph in less than 2 seconds, 6.5 mile range.


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## klem (Oct 16, 2009)

Those look like great projects. Your dinghy transportable sure sounds quick. The ones that I have done are a ford ranger, old chevy 1500 and an electrathon scratch built. The hybrids were formula style open wheel racers.


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## knothead (Apr 9, 2003)

I'm glad there are some experts here. 
I am seriously thinking about something like this.










I would like to build my own, but I don't know enough about it to know where to start. 
Are there any companies that you know of that make a good four wheel, solar powered electric bike? 
The website for the one pictured here has disappeared in the last week.


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## deckofficer (Feb 18, 2012)

You can roll your own
Cloud Electric, LLC
or go store bought
Electric Bikes, Ex-Bike, E-Ride, Quadricycles, Folding Electric Bikes.


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## klem (Oct 16, 2009)

If you want some inspiration, I recommend checking this out:

AustinEV - EV Info - Worldwide EV Sources

If you use purchased components, it is not particularly complicated to do, I think that the most complicated things for me on the 2 conversions were related to making the vehicles street legal. Scratch building adds a lot more complexity because you have to do everything like axles, brakes, bodywork, steering, etc.


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## deckofficer (Feb 18, 2012)

klem said:


> If you want some inspiration, I recommend checking this out:
> 
> AustinEV - EV Info - Worldwide EV Sources


I've got 3 EVs on that site.


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## INMA (Sep 13, 2011)

I read most of this thread, that's an hour I will never get back.

Unlike most on this thread, I have used and designed Lithium Ion batteries to drive a small vehicle, Its not simple, cheap or value for money unless you have a really important requirement like propelling a robot in high risk situations.

The thought of trying to engineer a competent system for a small boat is not attractive and the cost in construction and maintenance would be massive.

Marine electric drives are used in ships very successfully where the scale of the system improves its economy. Even then the traditional diesel or turbine drives are better value most of the time.

The traditional small diesel inboard is a remarkable piece of engineering.

The modern outboard is a remarkable piece of engineering. 

The millions of small engines cobbled together to propel boats in Asia and the rest of the third world are remarkable pieces of engineering.

I doubt diesel electric drives will match the competence of any of the systems mentioned above in my grand children's lifetime.

I would prefer a clapped out old Chinese stationary engine pushing a small boat over a diesel electric drive.

Simple is best, simple with 50 to 100 years of development is even better.

I normally like the pioneer spirit but they do say the pioneer is the one with the spear in their back.


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## deckofficer (Feb 18, 2012)

Sorry you felt like you wasted an hour. You state that the small diesel found in sailboats is a remarkable piece of engineering, well, maybe 75 years ago. Why are our small diesels only putting out 1 hp for each 16 lbs of engine weight when we have the huge heat sink of the body of water we are sitting in? My hunch is wringing as much profit out of an old design as possible, and when the market doesn't demand better, nobody is going to retool to offer something modern. In the small boat diesel market, all that is about to change.

How does 36 hp from a engine that weighs 176 lbs sound?
http://www.steyr-motors.com/fileadmin/files/steyrmotors_marine_mo32_smartsize_2cylinder_web.pdf
4.8 lbs per hp is a lot better than 16 lbs.
The others should have turbo'ed and inter-cooled ages ago.


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## klem (Oct 16, 2009)

deckofficer said:


> The others should have turbo'ed and inter-cooled ages ago.


Very true. The diesels that are available are not really optimized, there is a lot of room for improvement. Most of the "advances" recently have been in fancy injection systems to meet emissions but there are a lot of things that could be done to improve efficiency, lower weight, etc.


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## INMA (Sep 13, 2011)

Bob, by coincidence, I've also worked assessing a Steyr Marine engine and you are right it is a very advanced machine certified for very heavy duty work in things like lifeboats. 

The average yacht manufacturer could not get buyers to pay the premium in price and the weight advantage is not relevant to most applications. The larger Steyr engine I looked at was rated to take the shock loading when the craft was dropped from a ship or helicopter. Cheaper marine engines did not have the rating or power to weight ratio of the Steyr.

Its about market affordability and suitability for use. All the extra iron and weight on most marine engines does not cause installation or performance issues and maintenance is reasonably cheap.

I suggest premium marine engines like the Steyr need to be serviced by dealers to maintain their certifications, not the sort of stuff important to most yacht owners unless its in charter.

My point was the heavy hunk of diesel most yacht use does a good job, I don't believe a diesel electric drive would be economic. Too many things to go wrong.


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## INMA (Sep 13, 2011)

Forgot to add the modern high pressure injectors used on most light car engines don't survive well with poor quality diesel. The old clunker external injectors cope with all types of rubbish fuel.

I doubt the newer diesels will prove as robust as the old hunks sitting in yachts made 20 years ago.


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## deckofficer (Feb 18, 2012)

INMA,

On a weight sensitive catamaran the Steyr Marine would be quite welcome and the good folks at Steyr Marine will be making an effort to market to the sailing community at the end of this year. With proper pre filters for fuel, I believe users will not have any issues.


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## dorymate1 (Dec 6, 2011)

*Electric power go for it*

Your headed for the relm of the mostly unknown. I spent a hour or so with Nigel calder disscussing electic power @ the Annapolis show. He was very excited about the electric power available in the near futuer. Enough to consider building a new boat with it. I would contact him about it. Also Electric Boat has packages ready to go for boats to the low 30ft range. Warning however all us sailors are worried about that crawling off a lee shore senario. Good luck keep moving forward. After all a lot of people told Columbus not to go.


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## deckofficer (Feb 18, 2012)

Thanks for your lee shore concerns. On a cat, look at the redundancies you have to save your bacon. (2) electric motors that don't care about clogged fuel filters or air in the lines. A DC gen set that can supply the electrons to the motors should there be a problem with batteries and vice versa. Solar panals when both the DC gen set and batteries fail, sure, only good for 2 kt, but a third redundancy. It is I that should express concern for the folks with just one propulsion diesel and nothing else.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

INMA said:


> I don't believe a diesel electric drive would be economic. Too many things to go wrong.


I think that for the OP replacing two gas motors with one diesel engine plus electric motors is a much more defensible option than replacing a diesel with a diesel plus electric.

In the OP's case the added almost free benefit of easily accessible 110 volt power and water-makers and any number of toys, plus weight distribution in the Cat makes it a totally different calculation than for a mono-hull.


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## mpica (Nov 20, 2011)

Add Content


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## deckofficer (Feb 18, 2012)

mpica said:


> Add Content


What more do you want?


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

Deck officer
Have you chosen your,motors, controllers, charger, genset etc. yet
Which models are top on your list?


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## deckofficer (Feb 18, 2012)

Torqeedo for their fine engineering and light weight would have been on the top of the list, but their refusal to allow regen killed them off for me. So the outboard might be the Parsun's 5 hp model. If I go this route, the Polar Power's 8 Kw DC diesel gen set at 290 lbs will handle the loads of a pair of Parsun's 5 hp. Parsun has a new 10 hp outboard which just uses (2) of the Mars motors they use in the 5 hp model. If I go with the 10 hp models, that is a weight penalty of 55 lbs per outboard plus would need to go to the Polar Marine 20 Kw DC gen set that is 396 lbs. Total additional weight for the upgrade to (2) 10 hp vs (2) 5 hp is 216 lbs.
http://www.propulsionmarine.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/8-KW-Polar-DC-Marine-Brochure.pdf

This is the charger/gen set. DC output only.

For AC loads and marina charging, will go with a 48 VDC inverter 120/240 VAC and 60 amp charging.
Magnum MS-4448PAE 48 VDC 4400-watt 48VDC to 120/240VAC sinewave Inverter


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## jcase12 (Feb 20, 2012)

I think go electric is a great idea! I have plans for a simliar much smaller scale system for my boat. I am mainly concerned with getting rid of the smoker on the back of the boat. I will be using a homebuilt electric outdrive (until i can afford one of those nice torpedos or similar). It will have a small generator just to top of the batteries when needed. But mostly I will rely on charging up at the dock (or solar when I can afford that too) BTW I am now acceptting donations! I think maybe a drug habit might be cheaper at this point!


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## jcase12 (Feb 20, 2012)

*Re: Hybrids and hating oil companies*

I am not sure why but this qoute didnt come out right?
*"


Telesail;834086
I have a friend who is trying what deckofficer proposes and will ask for some feedback on his success. I do know that he found the regen to cut into performance more than he expected said:



"

Click to expand...

*


Telesail;834086
I have a friend who is trying what deckofficer proposes and will ask for some feedback on his success. I do know that he found the regen to cut into performance more than he expected said:


> When dealing with recharging by wind or water you should ask yourself if you have excess energy of either. It you drag a "prop" you will slow your boat but some of the kinetic energy lost will by regained as electirc potential "SOME". You can make this better buy using a blade designed for this purpose but it will be $$$$ and a stand alone unit not for use as porpulsion as some people try. If you use the excess wind, which is prolly a better source sense you are not using all of the "wind energy" out there and the technology is better and cheaper (well $$$ instead of $$$$ :laugher) but remember the water will charge when underway (or at dock/anchor in a current) and the wind will work best when the difference in the velocity of the turbine and the wind are at its greatest (which is not downwind) of course on a windy day at anchor they work as well. But remenber if you had the same potential "X" with water or wind the current tech with wind would be a better choice.
> 
> As a physicist I sometimes help friends with their ideas. I had one friend who made it all the way to patent step when he brought me his plans for a water turbine that was used to charge an electric propulsion system of its own thrust. He was pretty mad when I told him it wouldnt work like he thought. True it would produce some charging effects but first it would slow the boat allot and the charge recovered would not extend the range. He said I didn't know what I was talking about that his patent attorney said it was a good idea and he should file it. (I am sure that had nothing to do with fees involved!) Well anyway I said if I was wrong that would be great (laughing inside, shhh dont tell). So I helped him build up a protoype to show to investors. The motor we built was actually pretty good had about twice the range of a comparable store bought trolling motor. Then he tried the "recharging system". And we found out I was wrong! It didnt charge at all ! The force required to overcome the generator resistance was too high so he just dragged the generator prop throught the water, looked neat tho made a really strange wake. So he insisted on lowering the capicity of the generator and it started to spin and charge woohoo and to boot the batteries lasted about 10 percent longer. When he told me that I was shocked. But then he said that he didnt go quite as far like it was unrelated! I asked how much further did he go on our motor alone and he said "about three times as far but that it didnt matter.......blah blah blah" I blanked out on him for a minute. When he finnally admitted defeat he had spent about 1500 bucks on the prototype (so I gave him a bye on the told you so) and I found out later he had paid the attorney $4500 ouch to do some filing stuff for the patent. (not sure if he ever got it or not)  Well sorry for the rambling just a funny story to me.
> 
> BTW I am using the motor he built trying out some solar designs for a small fishing boat that look promising so far (also another SHHH...he thinks it is just sitting in my garage collecting dust! )


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## deckofficer (Feb 18, 2012)

Well, this is getting interesting. The drag can be high with the props pitched for forward propulsion but is of course 95% of your motoring is forward and if your on a mono, then you live with that. Friends that have the system on a mono report that with as little as 50 watts into the motors, dragged is reduced to the point of 1 additional knot in speed. If the controller is supplying some juice and the wind is pushing the boat faster than the rpm per volt of the motor, it then becomes a generator. My multi hull friends use this feature all the time, insures a ETA, and if they under estimated their average speed, the batteries will have a higher state of charge at the destination. They also like the sea anchor nature of having their speed kept in check surfing down big waves.

Since I'll being refitting a cat, I'm considering mounting one prop for astern propulsion. It will still work at reduced efficiency for forward, but will both be efficient in receiving energy from the water medium for regen when lowered in the water (PDQ 36) and also you can set your anchor with more grunt. Except for maneuvering, for motoring I'd only use the outboard with the forward pitched prop and have the other tilted up.


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## WDS123 (Apr 2, 2011)

Deck,


We have built 275 electric packets and 340 sailboats with electric drives, so speaking from position as the most experienced sailboat builder in electric propulsion. we have been installing solar panels on our sailboats for 6-7 years. 


For a 9,000 lbs vessel, I would look closely at the Mastervolt pod systems. My preference would be for their regen Pod, even though it is 40% more than the standard pod. 


the 10kw diesel genset concept seems to me just adding needless complexity - it is after all a sailboat


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## deckofficer (Feb 18, 2012)

WDS123,

This was what I was hoping for, someone from the industry coming out of the woodwork. The reason in my case for the 8Kw diesel DC gen-set is I'm a cruiser, and as such there are times I need to motor and I neither have the space for anything more than about 900 watts of solar, or the weight carrying ability (light cat) for more than around 25Kw/hr of lithium batteries.

Also the PDQ 36 isn't the LRC model, so is set up for twin outboards.


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## jcase12 (Feb 20, 2012)

Using a system to generate a little instead of it sitting their is always the way to go. I am not sure i you were responding to me but I was talking about the force required to spin the gene. (the electrical resistance) Running the motor at a desired speed and getting and giving power is a great idea. As far as what I was saying about wind or water generators I just meant if your purpose is to generator power with it then go with the wind less conversions of energy invloved. But if you are using an existing system to pick up a little lost potential its a different story.

Also on a related but not addressed topic:
A researcher that works in my department has devolped a fabric solar colector that looks like it will be strong enough for sails. Just something to dream about. It is being patented now and but still has a couple of years before it hits the market. He told me he could have some sails made up for my boat if I want to pay the 600k it would take the weave them I(by hand). I told him maybe when we get paid again! :laugher As of right now there is no mass producing tech but he is working on that and estimates once it is in place it will have a sq ft price of about 1/10 of todays solar cells. not bad huh?!


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## deckofficer (Feb 18, 2012)

That would be a game changer, because thanks to China entering the solar market, price per watt has dropped from $5 a watt (what I paid 20 years ago) to $1.13 per watt today. If it drops to $0.11 per watt I'll just say "screw the expensive sails" give me a light, mastless cat and I'll cover it with solar.


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## jcase12 (Feb 20, 2012)

Doing that right now would be expensive to I just used sails as an example. It will all changed once he gets the mass production setup. I actually talked him out of a small sample today that I am going to fly like a flag to see how it holds up in the sailing enviroment for him. He said maybe two or so years until it hits the selves...yay!!!!!


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## deckofficer (Feb 18, 2012)

I would like to create a place for everyone thinking about electric, and diesel-electric propulsion, fully electric galley, electric dinghy, diesel DC gen-sets, and 48 VDC (and higher) inverters, can communicate ideas, links, experiences, and pictures. Since I have been the victim of thread closures when such topics veer off, I have added this topic to my own forum. When your on your own turf, you know posting history will not be lost. My forum is a rather oddball mix of subjects, 80% hot rods (T-buckets) 10% for family care givers, and 10% sailing/cruising. This is where you will find the topic "Integration of systems" in the "Hybrid Drives For Sailboats" thread that is part of the "SAILBOAT CRUISER'S FORUM". All are welcome, please give links to all the breaking news on hybrid drives that you have come across here....
Integration of systems


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

deckofficer said:


> Torqeedo for their fine engineering and light weight would have been on the top of the list, but their refusal to allow regen killed them off for me.


Are you really sure regen with the propulsion prop is worth the compromises it causes?

I understand the allure of regen it sure looks like it should work.
Everyone who offers it that I have interviewed has always said well I'm still tweaking that it really don't give me anything yet but soon. I've been hearing but soon for years now.

Maybe you would be better off with Torqeedo as a pure play totally optimized system.
IOW with a whole lot of effort and tweaking and boat speed loss and prop swap outs you end up getting 5% back in the battery with regen you might easily with no work no loss of boat speed get the same 5% with the Torqeedo.

It really comes down to the numbers.


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## deckofficer (Feb 18, 2012)

I know, have been playing with a lot of numbers. For the dinghy, the Torqeedo is perfect, but I don't want to pass up the power in the sails, plus it could be used to keep down swell surfing speed in check to lessen a chance of a pitch pole.

Here is a new team up of Lynch/Lemco and Yanmar. So, I'm far from the only loose screw that is going to make this work. I relish the challenge. A couple of years ago the good folks on the hot rod forums said a fast car would only get 3~5 MPG. My project was to design and build a car/power train combination that could out corner a Corvette, get 30 mpg, and run the 1/4 in 10.8 @ 132, which I did. The hydrid drive for the sail boat is just another challenge.

Seagoing Hybrids - Hybrid Electric Marine Propulsion


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## klem (Oct 16, 2009)

deckofficer,

It doesn't sound like you are planning on using them but if you are, the Lynch motors have been very problematic for me and I have seen a few catastrophic failures. The etek ones have been fine but the 96 and 120V Lynch ones have been disappointing. I haven't really looked around to see whether other people have had the same experiences but it was enough to make me use other motors on future projects.


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## deckofficer (Feb 18, 2012)

Thanks for the heads up on the Lynch, but they priced themselves out of consideration by me.


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