# Cruising yachts behaving if they're doing us a favour



## piclarke (Nov 19, 2001)

*This is one of my hobby horses*

It irritates me to read of cruising yachts behaving as if they're doing you a favour by asking you to pay e30, e40, or much more, per day to work / crew on their sailing yachts. Most of them call it "sharing expenses" but in my opinion, at that rate it is taking on working crew for profit.

Read more fully on this issue:

Links Cruising yachts behaving if they're doing us a favour 

Captains responsibilities.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

You can choose not to take them up on it.


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

This thread is worthless.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

MarkSF said:


> This thread is worthless.


Agreed.


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## CaptTony (May 22, 2011)

Why is the thread worthless? Pray tell you are not one of these scam artists. This is an issue that deserves to be vetted. I will venture to guess that there are a lot of inexperienced sailors out there who unknowingly get taken in by this scam. 

And what about the legalities of the situation. In the USA, such a "deal" might be construed as paying for passage. Is the owner/captain licensed to take on passengers?

A worthless thread? I think not. It's something worthy of discussion.


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## piclarke (Nov 19, 2001)

CaptTony said:


> Why is the thread worthless? Pray tell you are not one of these scam artists. This is an issue that deserves to be vetted. I will venture to guess that there are a lot of inexperienced sailors out there who unknowingly get taken in by this scam.
> 
> And what about the legalities of the situation. In the USA, such a "deal" might be construed as paying for passage. Is the owner/captain licensed to take on passengers?
> 
> A worthless thread? I think not. It's something worthy of discussion.


Thanks Captain.

From the other tread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DRFerron View Post 
The crab didn't look too happy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by miatapaul View Post 
Well sounds like you should have checked the safety equipment and if not comfortable left before leaving port. Heck I checked the safety equipment on a Carnival Cruse and would have notified the crew if I found something missing or out of date before leaving and would have left the ship had it not been resolved. You are the only one ultimately responsible for your own safety and if the boat was not safe, you should have never left port. I don't think for 35 Euro a day you should have been expecting to not be involved in maintenance and other tasks that may have been required. Come on it is not like you were paying for a luxury cruse, and must not have read the brochure. It is an Expedition, not a cruse liner. Just seems to me your expectations were way to high, heck you could not have stayed in an all inclusive resort for that kind of money, so why expect that level of service, on a boat no less.

This sounds a bit like the Rockdawg story, only one side.

You are completely wrong which negates all the comments opinions in your post.

Every boat, no matter how big or small, must have a skipper. The skipper is legally responsible for the safety of the boat and all the people on board, and is also responsible for complying with all the relevant rules and regulations, conventions, international treaties.

Please read;;;;

Skipper responsibilities

Plus Conventions on the law of the sea.

Its posters like you bring other boater owners and skippers in to disrepute with your ill informed bluffing postings. Plus giving confidence to others they do not have to check their responsibilities or get educated.

I do not have an ax to grind about paying for crewed positions. Its because skippers do not do their own due diligence and remain ignorant regarding their skippers responsibilities or bluff the inexperienced crew person bringing the credibility and yachting responsible owners and skippers into disrepute in the eyes off the non sailing citizens or first time crew sailors.

I might add I can stay in a pig sty for free which would probably be cleaner than that vessel.

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Signing liability releases does not over rule a un statuary convention or state laws, worldwide treaties.

The port officials take no notice and state you delivered here it is your responsibility to make provision to fly the crew member to his home land and if the skipper refuses they will give 24 hrs for the owner skipper to find another port to enter. - that's on entry. If after entry you give them the news [ the crew that is ] the authorities will state they will not sign / give departure papers for the vessel until the skipper gives them the air ticket and will state he is also liable for meals and hotel accommodation, transport costs to the airport. They will not give clearance to leave also until the hotel, meals drinks, room service, other misc charges, bill is paid also. So the longer he refuses the more it will ultimately cost the skipper. If the skipper does a runner the authorities have a system in place all ports world wide will be given the vessels details passport no of the owner, ships registration details and he will have to pay the bill plus a fine before he can enter any port world wide. Even if he is an American with a American registered vessel.

The authorities will then pay the air fare for the crew member to his homeland knowing they will eventually be paid under the conventions on the law of the sea, and other treaties..

Quote:
Originally Posted by skelmir View Post 
Sounds like that person needs to buy their own boat and go cruising. Apparently they think that paying 39 euros a day is expensive and at that price they should be able to lounge around in a hammock all day and not lift a finger. I don't know anything about this Expedition company but that "objective" review came across as anything but.

My advice would be to manage your expectations. If you chartered a boat with a captain and a hired crew you have every right to demand everything to be shipshape and that your champagne isn't too warm. If you pay to crew on a boat things are going to be different. One cost a lot more than the other.

You obviously did not read the full articles or you have a vested interest.

The vessel is not surveyed let alone a ocean survey.
All life saving equipment well past inspection and renewal dates. These regulations are there for a reason and made by the authorities in just about all world nations not just as a means to stimulate jobs, employment and business.

So on your vessel every one has to become a vegetarian. Yes Vegetables are very expensive particularly in the Islands, they will give them to you , enough for 7 days or more for the whole vessel for a packet of 25 tailor made smokes or a T Shirt especially if has an americium flag insignia or such.

Sanitation non existent and sleeping with cockroaches and human body wastes on the decks. Imagine the flies when on anchor.

It irritates me to read of cruising yachts behaving as if they're doing us a favour by asking us to pay e30, e40, or much more, per day to work / crew on their sailing yacht which they can't sail safely unless they have crew.

No where in the article did it convey that they weren't prepared to do a watch and hang in a hammock the entire passage time or a reasonable amount in sailing the vessel whilst under way, other wise one would get pretty bored within a few days. Meals These days Pasta, instant noodles, rice only and instant cup a soup with tinned bully beef, mackerel, sardines, herrings in tomato sauce is not acceptable. If you need crew to help sail your dream boat then the boat is far to big for you to do your thing and in a lot of cases it is virtually a delivery trip that they are not prepared to pay for a delivery skipper to sail with crew. Husband advertisers for crew to do the passage, whilst wife and kids fly to the destinations, wait in a 4-5 star hotel and on arrival the crew are given approx 48 hrs to vacant the vessel so wife and kids can board to save or the wife refuses to do watches, cook or clean for non family members. Also most owners never in my experience do the midnight watch its always roistered for the crew to do so his body clock is not put out unbalanced or pay their return airfares to their home port.

Worth being educated.

Also no survey, safety equipment not in date, or insufficient, faulty.
A accident happens and their is a death. Hefty fine plus manslaughter charges
and a jail term.

Don't believe me. A case last year . A father in his runabout decides to go fishing with two 10 boys. All had life jackets on. Crosses a marginal bar and the boat overturns. One 10 year old drowns and the life jacket floating away from the body some distance. It had slipped over his head and did not have a crouch strap as well.

Charged on the coroners report that the skipper did not meet his obligations -responsibilities. He failed to supply a proper fitting size life jacket and also failed to make sure it was securely fastened to the boy.

He found that should that have happened the boy probably would have lived.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

Good. Now we know that you can successfully copy text from your other thread.

And that last part about the kids who died? A sad lesson but unrelated to the boat and crew that you are disparaging. 

You know, a better way of going about this would have been to simply state the issue abstractly without pointing fingers at any particular boat and crew like you did in the link to your companion thread.

And all those emoticons in your signature are annoying.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

I'm looking for crew.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

I am the crew. Not yours but the only one I need in my boat. and I suspect that with you it is the same.

Normally those guys that are asking for money it is not really for crewing as if they needed it but somebody to enjoy the pleasures of sailing being part of a crew and to learn some sailing. If it is so it is natural that some money to be asked not only regarding immediate expenses but all expenses related with a sailboat. If so those values even the higher are pretty low.

If someone really needs a crew to sail his sailboat than money should not be asked but paid.


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## unimacs (Sep 6, 2013)

PCP said:


> I am the crew. Not yours but the only one I need in my boat. and I suspect that with you it is the same.
> 
> Normally those guys that are asking for money it is not really for crewing as if they needed it but somebody to enjoy the pleasures of sailing being part of a crew and to learn some sailing. If it is so it is natural that some money to be asked not only regarding immediate expenses but all expenses related with a sailboat. If so those values even the higher are pretty low.
> 
> If someone really needs a crew to sail his sailboat than money should not be asked but paid.


Good Post.

These kinds of arrangements can be mutually beneficial and enjoyable or horrible experiences. It's good to hear about both so that people know what to be careful of, what sorts of questions to ask, and what precautions to take.

There probably are skippers out there who need/want a crew to help get their boat from point A to point B and will take advantage of the fact there are people who are willing to "share expenses" for the benefit of the experience. The problem is when the experience that they think they will be getting is not in line with what the skipper is prepared/willing/able to deliver.

As far as the poll goes there isn't a set dollar amount that's appropriate. There needs to be an understanding of what the crew and skipper expects to get out of the arrangement and only then can you arrive an appropriate fee or payment.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

Rather than remove these two threads, I'm going to just remove the references to the boat that piclarke has an issue with. There are some good discussions going on that might benefit novices.


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## piclarke (Nov 19, 2001)

DRFerron said:


> Good. Now we know that you can successfully copy text from your other thread.
> 
> And that last part about the kids who died? A sad lesson but unrelated to the boat and crew that you are disparaging.
> 
> ...


May I respectfully disagree. The part re the to kids refers to skippers responsibility which a poster has stated its the crews responsibility and can be applied to all the responsibilities that are being argued as it was a test case and the authorities are now increasing applying that things in the past where designated an accident and forgiven. Not now more and more there is no accident sympathy and people are held to account by way of charges and prosecution. In the article they complained the life saving equipment had not been serviced, faulty and probably not suitable. The court case clearly demonstrates that providing a life jacket is in itself not sufficient. It must be the correct size for the wearer and the skipper must ensure that it is secure. The coroner found the child was given an oversize life jacket [ not sure how over sized it was ] but the deciding and crucial convicting part / neglect was the child was left to put it on himself and the skipper did not check that it was securely fitted / fastened on the child.* He merely glanced and I might say that's what most people would do including skippers in most cases, except mothers I suppose, saw he was wearing the jacket and accepted he had actioned his responsibility, which proved fatal. *

So accordingly it is something educational to remember and pass on to fellow friends and members that have not read this thread.

Where does it say in my posts that I have pointed fingers at that particular boat and crew.


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## bfloyd4445 (Sep 29, 2013)

piclarke said:


> *This is one of my hobby horses*
> 
> It irritates me to read of cruising yachts behaving as if they're doing you a favour by asking you to pay e30, e40, or much more, per day to work / crew on their sailing yachts. Most of them call it "sharing expenses" but in my opinion, at that rate it is taking on working crew for profit.
> 
> ...


then you must have a license. Sharing expenses is just that and nothing more. I have never asked anything of guests and they never ask me when I am their guest. I am having a problem with a lady friend that wants to go all the time, offers to buy lunch, but never has money when it comes time to pay so I pay, but if she sees something she wants and can't get me to buy it money miraculously appears. I did put my foot down and told her from now on she will have to pay expenses up front or she dosent go anymore.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

We have been guests on numerous occasions in various areas, and have had guests aboard on numerous occasions similarly, for as long as a couple of weeks at a time.

Obviously compatibility is numero uno.. and that's something very difficult to quantify ahead of time unless you already know the guests well. Even being family doesn't guarantee a harmonious cruise, does it??

But we find ourselves facing a bit of a double standard.. when we are guests we are happy/anxious to pay our share.. esp if we are being treated to an area we'd never otherwise enjoy. We're happy to pay moorage, food, customs fees, essentially the real costs of their having us aboard over that time. Sometimes we feel we have to 'push' that support but in the end it only seems fair.. especially if they've taken us to areas where they may have not gone had we not joined them..

But on the flip side I'm a bit embarrassed when they return the favour as our guests.. we never ask for anything, but they of course reciprocate, and I believe they're fine with that but I find it a bit uncomfortable. Largely, because rarely does the presence of guests change our plans, or add to expenses beyond food and drink..

In the end we accept it, of course.. and ultimately it works for everyone. But this is all a bit different from saying.. wanna come sailing? only $20/day!

Our arrangements have been between sailors, we've (each party) had our own boats and fully understand the logistics of cruising and upkeep... When dealing with nonsailing guest who would have no idea perhaps it is best to set some kind of support cost(but, I'd say, only if it's beyond a daysail) If we invited a workmate for an afternoon sail I'd certainly not expect them to bring cash.... beer maybe.... but not cash


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

We charge $50/day per person.

For that you get stale moldy bread, brackish water, at least one whipping per day and constant verbal abuse. You are required to clean the heads twice a day with your toothbrush.

We have a great time, right MS?


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

piclarke said:


> *This is one of my hobby horses*
> 
> It irritates me to read of cruising yachts behaving as if they're doing you a favour by asking you to pay e30, e40, or much more, per day to work / crew on their sailing yachts. Most of them call it "sharing expenses" but in my opinion, at that rate it is taking on working crew for profit.
> 
> ...


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## piclarke (Nov 19, 2001)

PCP said:


> If someone really needs a crew to sail his sailboat than money should not be asked but paid.


*agree.*
Anything associated with the running / berthing of the boat would be the owner's expense whether there were any crew aboard or not. Berthing is charged by the size of the boat, not how many people are on board, fuel costs the same. And wear and tear of the boat? Again, those are the responsibilities of the owner.

*Another alternative *is to be free on board, free meals when the owner dines ashore, plus drinks, plus drinks at all times ashore when accompany the owner plus paid airfares to and from the vessel which a lot of owners cruising offshore do except kiwis, Australian and a lot other nationalities can't comment, As can be seen by the poll at the moment there is that don't charge or are they non boat owners or affraid to declare they charge the anti posters. Because the poll at the moment there is more that don't charge than those that charge.

But if racing the owner normally would not go racing and a group talks him into racing the boat and they will contribute an amount to race at a agreed set figure per race to him to provide the boat then thats different.


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## bfloyd4445 (Sep 29, 2013)

xort said:


> We charge $50/day per person.
> 
> For that you get stale moldy bread, brackish water, at least one whipping per day and constant verbal abuse. You are required to clean the heads twice a day with your toothbrush.
> 
> We have a great time, right MS?


for that kind of money there should be at least one keel hauling or plank walking with an anchor....geez....


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## rrodak (Nov 14, 2011)

I see said the blind man as he stares at the sea.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

xort said:


> We charge $50/day per person.
> 
> For that you get stale moldy bread, brackish water, at least one whipping per day and constant verbal abuse. You are required to clean the heads twice a day with your toothbrush.
> 
> We have a great time, right MS?


Damn, you are a tough captain and greedy SOB. Our crew only have to pay $45 a day and do the heads once a day.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

piclarke said:


> *agree.*
> 
> *Another alternative *is to be free on board, free meals when the owner dines ashore, plus drinks, plus drinks at all times ashore when accompany the owner plus paid airfares to and from the vessel *which a lot of owners cruising offshore do except kiwis*, Australian and a lot other nationalities can't comment,


Punctuation is not clear, but I think I would be accused of being a Kiwi -pretty flattering company to keep for a sailor. I don't know anyone who pays for crew air fares too and from, although I was asked for this by a TransPac racer, a legend inhis own mind, who used to frequent SN.


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## unimacs (Sep 6, 2013)

piclarke said:


> *agree.*
> Anything associated with the running / berthing of the boat would be the owner's expense whether there were any crew aboard or not. Berthing is charged by the size of the boat, not how many people are on board, fuel costs the same. And wear and tear of the boat? Again, those are the responsibilities of the owner.


I gather from the website that these expeditions are supposed to have some positive social and environmental impact. As a volunteer you are opting to participate in that endeavor and help cover the costs for it as well as doing your share of the work involved. Presumably you hope to get something out of it as well, -otherwise you shouldn't do it.

You can't compare the dollar amount they charge to what someone else may or may not charge for an entirely different proposition.

Fuel, berthing, food, drink are all part of the costs of the expedition that you are opting to participate in. The costs to you are known up front. If you think they are out of line, then don't go.

Expecting a skipper to pay for your way home is crazy even if you can contort the spirit of some laws to back up your argument.

Now, if the sanitary conditions are terrible, the food inadequate, and the vessel unsafe, you have legitimate reason for complaint. Feel free to warn anybody else about that particular operation. I'm not sure why the name of that operation must be censored here since people are free to complain about other organizations if they feel the need.

My sense is that they rely a lot on volunteers and as such the people in charge of maintenance and provisioning may not be all that experienced. Which means that the degree of success in performing their duties can be very uneven. Your trip sounds like a horror story. Maybe all the expeditions are like that. Maybe others work out better. You are trusting an organization that more than likely operates on a shoestring.


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

Whenever I ask for help moving the boat somewhere, I try to provide food (and drinks after the anchor is down). Getting to and from the boat is their responsibility, unless I'm dead-headding a car back to the starting point.

Can't imagine charging them. Even DavidPM who keeps pointing out where I need to install cupholders and criticizing my sail trim.  I guess since he's a Captain now, I should be feeding him steak and lobster.

Same for daysails. HugoSalt brought a bottle fine liquor once though. It was fantastic.

Regards,
Brad


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## piclarke (Nov 19, 2001)

killarney_sailor said:


> Punctuation is not clear, but I think I would be accused of being a Kiwi -pretty flattering company to keep for a sailor. I don't know anyone who pays for crew air fares too and from, although I was asked for this by a TransPac racer, a legend inhis own mind, who used to frequent SN.


*Well you do now. *

Nearly all my trips are that arrangement. Nearly as not for the first few years as I was inexperienced and sick off neglected boats with equipement that did not work and the food they supplied on board that motivated the change.

Reason could be Celestrial navigation qualifications. Requirement was for vessels leaving offshore had to have at least one person on board that could navigate using Celestrial navigation via Sextant and tables. A Statuory safety requirement.

*I don't use the air sight reduction tables.* Many boats could not find such qualified crew and could not leave and where quite releived I did not ask for payment as well. I was just happy to provide the service so as they could realise their desire / dreams, even before they had to hand their knife and fork in to do a offshore passage, cruise, race. I think the requirement still exisits. If you have a vessel and you can't navigate using celestrial navigation then you pay the going conditions/ demands / offers or stay in the marina.

Its a bit like sex. If you don,t ask you will not get a yes. But that has changed also.

OC


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## bfloyd4445 (Sep 29, 2013)

Bene505 said:


> Whenever I ask for help moving the boat somewhere, I try to provide food (and drinks after the anchor is down). Getting to and from the boat is their responsibility, unless I'm dead-headding a car back to the starting point.
> 
> Can't imagine charging them. Even DavidPM who keeps pointing out where I need to install cupholders and criticizing my sail trim.  I guess since he's a Captain now, I should be feeding him steak and lobster.
> 
> ...


you mean you can't move your boat without help???...hummmm....well there are times when I solicit the help of some pretty female to assist me in going out on the water


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## piclarke (Nov 19, 2001)

unimacs said:


> I gather from the website that these expeditions are supposed to have some positive social and environmental impact. As a volunteer you are opting to participate in that endeavor and help cover the costs for it as well as doing your share of the work involved. Presumably you hope to get something out of it as well, -otherwise you shouldn't do it.
> 
> You can't compare the dollar amount they charge to what someone else may or may not charge for an entirely different proposition.
> 
> ...


In the video / promo which I assume is a purely a false presentation about a expedition has young marrieds on board with young children and they - the expedition is accordingly to the review going to Antartica via NZ to the ross sea past the Chatam Islands. 60 ft waves plus and a storm every 14 days approx ??? NZ has some off the toughest exit regs in the world. Quite correctly so NZ is responsible for search and rescue operations. It does not compute.

But the question is where does the recreational definition end and the commercial definition start.

Please don"t say it does not matter. If so there is nothing in the agreement as to how the increase in capital value [ Vessel ] is devided when the expedition is concluded.


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

Univ students do all the research, while paying tuition. The prof gets the patent and makes big bucks. 

Interns across the spectrum are paid little to nothing and often put in a lot of work.

Your mother should sue for non payment for services rendered!

The list goes on.


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## piclarke (Nov 19, 2001)

xort said:


> Univ students do all the research, while paying tuition. The prof gets the patent and makes big bucks.
> 
> Interns across the spectrum are paid little to nothing and often put in a lot of work.
> 
> ...


I.m not a Student, I,m a equivalent to a tutor, instructor and I have to pay someone with less experience less qualifications and add thousands in dollars in value to his asset so i get to pee in his toilet.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

When I let myself on my boat, it averages out to cost me around $50-75 a day to go sailing. Most people who sail with me are guests and the pay nothing at all. 

But there are some people who have such unreasonably inconsiderate and spoiled personalities that I would not allow them on my boat unless I absolutely had to. Those people I charge 35 euro's a day, and insist that they help with sailing the boat and doing maintenance. If they agree to those terms then its their problem not mine. 

If they straighten out the price is free, if they stay for months and don't straighten out I double the price and insist that they also complain on sailing forums so other people can ridicule them and help straighten them out, or at least can see what I had to put up with. 

I hope that helps you, 

Jeff


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

bfloyd4445 said:


> you mean you can't move your boat without help???...hummmm....well there are times when I solicit the help of some pretty female to assist me in going out on the water


I solo about half the time. But it's great to have company. Company that can sail is even better.

Regards,
Brad


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

I like sleeping. I like the knowledge I gain and the pleasure of other sailors company. Therefore,I have crew on occasion. To date they have been friends or friends of friends. No money has changed hands. No one has shown up without contributing to provisions or otherwise contributing to expenses. No one has ever been asked as if I thought they wouldn't some how contribute they would not have been invited in the first place. I suppose if I needed to hire crew in the future the op concerns would not be germaine either. I think if the ops believes he has so much to offer perhaps he should charge for it. I hope he never crews for me.


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## piclarke (Nov 19, 2001)

killarney_sailor said:


> Damn, you are a tough captain and greedy SOB. Our crew only have to pay $45 a day and do the heads once a day.


Here is a quote from the one of the web masters at Cruiser L.

*His spin on the issue.*

I might ad when he sees what he thinks is over charging he tells them to go to a commercial sight and pay the advertisement charge to get crew.

"Crew can legitimately be requested to pay much of their own expenses when it comes to food, alcohol and entertainment....expenses which would not be incurred by the vessel's owner if the crew were not on board. However the owner/skipper still needs to make some concessions, as without the crew many vessels simply could not move for more than a day at a time. Owners should pay for normal running expenses and still buy the crew a good feed after a passage.

I am not abnormally vain, but I like to think that when crew leaves me behind, they take with them positive memories about the trip, the boat and me.

'User pays' is a fact of life for banks, insurance companies, communications and airlines conglomerates...but as cruisers we still inhabit a world of sharing experiences, caring and courtesy.

I see nothing wrong with trying to make money from sailing if that is what takes your fancy; but be honest about it, get certified, surveyed, compete with legitimate charter boats, and pay for your marketing."

"David." [/B]


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## unimacs (Sep 6, 2013)

piclarke said:


> I.m not a Student, I,m a equivalent to a tutor, instructor and I have to pay someone with less experience less qualifications and add thousands in dollars in value to his asset so i get to pee in his toilet.


When you go on one of their "expeditions" it is made pretty clear that you are volunteering your services. The fact that somebody else might be willing to pay handsomely for your services is irrelevant. Nobody made you enter into this arrangement. You understood that you would be making a contribution of your own money to help cover the expenses of the trip.

To me it's very much like a church mission trip somebody might go on. They pay their own way. They typically provide for at least a portion of their own food. They are expected to work. Where this particular operation gets a little shady for me is the stated purpose of their journeys. Seems like they are mostly just traveling around. It's not clear that they're really doing any good at all but I suppose that argument can be made about lots of missions.

So is the whole "Expedition" bit in this instance a sham and all it's really about is getting cheap labor to sail and maintain a large vessel? Maybe. But in the general case I don't have any problem with this kind of arrangement. Like I've said before, if handled well I think it can easily turn out to be beneficial for everyone involved.


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## Slayer (Jul 28, 2006)

I know.....it is ridiculous. But even worse...have you heard of those individuals who take advantage of people by making them pay to be yelled at and cajoled into doing push-ups and sit-ups and riding that extra mile on a bike. I think it's outrageous and someone should put a stop to it!


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## Frogwatch (Jan 22, 2011)

My boat is small and has few amenities so charging crew would be absurd. I do want crew to pay their own airfare and chip in for food but anything regarding handling, fixing or berthing the boat is covered by me. Crew members paying to work? What a strange idea.
However, I did attend a talk by a guy who went on one of these long distance trips on a big boat where he was a crew member. It sounded great but at the end he was soliciting money to do it again and this was puzzling until I found he actually had to PAY TO BE CREW! At first I thought it was an elaborate joke but soon realized he was serious. He actually wanted donations so he could pay someone to be working crew on a boat. I dont know who sounded stupider, him or the people who donated money to him.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Stating a charge for passage weeds out the (at the risk of being reported for the cardinal sin of "name-calling") wimps, whiners and wannabes. Those who balk at the fee either aren't serious or expect to be treated like passengers, not crew. Those who say "yeah, that's fair, it almost covers my rum intake" are welcome.


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## bfloyd4445 (Sep 29, 2013)

bljones said:


> Stating a charge for passage weeds out the (at the risk of being reported for the cardinal sin of "name-calling") wimps, whiners and wannabes. Those who balk at the fee either aren't serious or expect to be treated like passengers, not crew. Those who say "yeah, that's fair, it almost covers my rum intake" are welcome.


when you get right down to it no one should object to paying part of the expense of their fun and games. Everything costs money without witch there are no fun in games or food on the table. My neighbor takes me to the store dosent charge me but I reciprocate to him so in away we each are sharing the cost. I think what people are really complaining about here are so called freeloaders that never want to pay for anything and are always looking for ways to get others to pay for their fun. Those jerks should be anchored<smile>
Don't laugh, why not. By filling in for an anchor they will in away be paying there way right?


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## svzephyr44 (Jun 26, 2000)

I normally sail alone but have taken on crew for both an Atlantic transit and traveling around the Caribbean. My particular rule is crew contributes to food, pays for their own customs fees (rare), alcohol, smokes and entertainment. This usually ends up being about $10 to $20 per day (some people like steak, some mac and cheese!) I think this is fair. The crew do not add to my financial burden and they get the enjoyment of the experience. I am not talking about taking friends or acquaintances out for a day sail or a weekend, but rather crew that stays on the boat for several months. These are people who almost exclusively have asked to go sailing for their personal enjoyment. I feel no obligation to pay their costs.

A touchy issue is when crew break things. Cruising boats have things break and I pay the bill. But I have had people drop winch handles overboard, throw dishes into the sea when emptying grey water, and drop expensive electronic remotes overboard. The polite ones pay, the others seem to think I am made of money.

A second issue is what belongs to me and what belongs to the boat. I have had guests assume they can use my computer, my camera, etc. because they are on the boat. I don't agree.

A third issue is cleanliness. I try to keep the boat very clean. Traveling in the tropics it is difficult to keep bugs off the boat. I have had to ask people to leave who do not understand the necessity of keeping the food and kitchen area immaculate.

I have added links to two documents that I use to "interview" potential crew and explain their duties. You are welcome to comment on them and/or use them for your own purposes.

Potential Crew Questionare: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B2DnIrraLRikVHhNMm9VaGFUcW8/edit?usp=sharing

Standing Orders: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B2DnIrraLRikYkZpVWJ3VndsYkk/edit?usp=sharing

A final note: There are many people in the sailing community (like any other community) that are trying to make money on their "dream." There are people willing to contribute to sail on a tall ship etc. I have no problem with that. I do have a problem with people running a commercial venture who try and pretend it is something else.



Roger


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## CaptTony (May 22, 2011)

svzephyr44 said:


> I have added links to two documents that I use to "interview" potential crew and explain their duties. You are welcome to comment on them and/or use them for your own purposes.
> 
> Potential Crew Questionare: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B2DnIrraLRikVHhNMm9VaGFUcW8/edit?usp=sharing
> 
> ...


Those are some really detailed documents you have there. Are they copyrighted?  I sure would like to "steal" a couple of ideas from them.


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## svzephyr44 (Jun 26, 2000)

Tony -
No, they are not copyrighted. Attribution would be nice. Any thoughts from your experiences would be appreciated also. They were written as a result of some bad experiences and my naive belief that most people didn't need such things written down.

Enjoy them, I hope they work for you.


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## benesailor (Dec 27, 2012)

Roger, Those are great docs. I concur with them. I believe i will be stealing copies as well.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

svzephyr44 said:


> I have added links to two documents that I use to "interview" potential crew and explain their duties.
> 
> Roger


Hells bells! A bit more detailed than I would go into but it sure gives potential crew an insight to skipper and boat etc.

I have had some one line crewing applications don't even know if I should respond. Certainly with Rogers expected response only the enthusiastic will do so.

As I havent taken anyone on-board that I don't already know I am still in two minds to take crew or not.

Thanks for sharing, Roger.

Mark


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## piclarke (Nov 19, 2001)

svzephyr44 said:


> I normally sail alone but have taken on crew for both an Atlantic transit and traveling around the Caribbean. My particular rule is crew contributes to food, pays for their own customs fees (rare), alcohol, smokes and entertainment. This usually ends up being about $10 to $20 per day (some people like steak, some mac and cheese!) I think this is fair. The crew do not add to my financial burden and they get the enjoyment of the experience. I am not talking about taking friends or acquaintances out for a day sail or a weekend, but rather crew that stays on the boat for several months. These are people who almost exclusively have asked to go sailing for their personal enjoyment. I feel no obligation to pay their costs.
> 
> A touchy issue is when crew break things. Cruising boats have things break and I pay the bill. But I have had people drop winch handles overboard, throw dishes into the sea when emptying grey water, and drop expensive electronic remotes overboard. The polite ones pay, the others seem to think I am made of money.
> 
> ...


Really good. Almost full marks.

Suggestion All handhelds and expensive handheld remotes should have safey wrist straps fixed so they don't get dropped over board.

Can I also copy and adapt so its not so restrictive as I sail as a Captain and as crew.

Now for for the nitty gritty. Also a touchy issue.

When I sail as crew I like you send a questionaire to the owner.

You will be shocked at ther attitude. 80 % have refused or spin some argue along the lines how dare a crew member ask suck lenghty detailed infomation.

I find most boats that refuse to sign at later dates by comming accross crewmembers that did join as crew asking no questions thet had a hell trip.

The remainder % had good boats a delight to sail on as you can decide what level of safety or comfort you are prepared to accept and not complain. Also when on board some when there is a issue say they did not agree to that, bingo you can produce the document. Crew beware of the captain that uses his wife to answer the questions and uses her solicit for crew on his behalf. He then has the perfect excuse to say he did not agree to that and that he does not believe his wife would have stated / agreed to that and if she did he will be having words with her . Got caught once will never be caught again by a shafty boat owner by signing with an incorrect date and not his usual signature. I did not check the date he seemed more that reasonable with a good helpful personality. However he was a wealthy successful business man that did not have many successful law suits go against him i'm told. I can see why now. When I suggested I would take the matter further he replied with a grin on his face -- have another look at the agreement i signed. It was Dated two before i arrived. I was'nt not on board with clearance papers throwing the whole agreement or inforcement into headache territory. Didn,t check he had put the correct signing date. It"s easy to over look. You have to check all dotted i's and crossed t's with some captains.

Had to refine questions even further still. Not good enough to ask do you have a refrigerator, deepth sounder, auto pilot, Have to also ask do they work. Had answers yes only to find when on board they have not worked for 6 months or more previously. Also if the answer is yes don't assume crew can use it. Had captains answer yes Auto pilots only to find he is the only person to use it as a result of low amp hour storage.

Check the amp hour storage capacity of the vessel this will give some idea what can be used. Refined question to ask whats are the amps used when all safety electronics are on plus auto plilot and the number of amp hours the batteries total and bingo in a lot of cases they don,t have the amp hours and will not allow the gen set on to charge more amp hours untill a set time in the morning. So no navigation lights on a night, no auto pilot on a night and no radar on at night and no using your own computer in between genset time pluged into the ships 12 volt system. Had one particular vessel the refrigeration was sacrificed at night whilst the crew where asleep to save amp hours hence in the tropics bacteria comtamination resulted.

The list goes on.

If a vessel has cats on board read this

Dangerous feline parasite at shocking levels in humans - World - NZ Herald News

Never hand your pass port to the captain to hold during the trip. Give him a copy. Some will refuse to return it if it is to their advantage and what if he misplaces it.

Never sign a agreement that classifies you as a guest makes sure it states you are a boni fide crew member.

Don't agree that you don't get a refund for unused stores food ect. What if the crew get a bit off colour a restrict their food / eating habits / consumption. It happens and the captain over orders which is easily done to make sure there is ample on board. According some boats owners can live on unused ships stores for 6 months or more before they have to buy anything. It amounts to quite a few dollars - like the equivalent to $8 a day. *That's a gain for insurance purposes as well.*

*Ask these questions or similiar and why.*

© OCTOBER 2013

1. Do all skin fittings (out flow) have non-return valves installed, including cockpit drains, vanity and galley sinks.

2. Does the vessels have bilge pumps and what capacity are they? I insist on a minimum of at least two bilge pumps on the vessel with a minimum capacity rating of 2500 gals per hour each, with automatic float switches, float switch guards and with light indicators displayed in a common visible position, preferably displayed on the engine instrument panel because this is usually visible from the helming station. Engine room, should be fitted with a Smart pump switch and detector. All bilge pumps should be connected to a three way rocker panel switch as well and should not (along with co alarms) be routed through the boats battery switch. Do you have at least one float switch in the spares department? Bilge pumps are your first and last line of staying afloat when taking on water. If you have to abandon ship because of taking on water, time is an important factor in sending out a mayday call, launching the life raft and all getting a board, with all the necessities one can take to make ones experience, endurance of such as comfortable as possible.

Remember bilge pumps are your last line of defence in staying afloat. Check to see if the hand bilge pump actually works. In addition all hull inlets and outlets should have soft wooded tapered plugs tied to the hull skin fittings, sized to suit each fitting. 
3. Do you have a life raft, is the regular servicing in date and will it remain in date for the passage? Capacity of life raft? Life rafts, if not serviced regularly can perish if insufficient talc powder was used when repacking. A dated test service sticker is always attached to the outside of the canister or bag if it has been serviced by a registered servicing business. If not ask to see the inspection serving certificate, issued by the approved servicing agent. Make
sure it is USCG, ORC, IOR, CCA, AAA, approved and has independent buoyancy chambers, at least 4 deep ballast pockets, rain gathering catcher and a boarding ladder. Deep ballast pockets types have 4 times the anti capsizing capabilities compared to other types and normally have other superior attributes, such as less likely to flip upside down when launching. Life support mechanisms contained therein also have a use by date, as do MOB systems. Annual servicing / survey is a basic requirement for life rafts and is the norm internationally. Manufacturers have designed and built there life rafts with the understanding that they would be serviced / surveyed annually except for life rafts packed in a vacuum inner-pack. The vacuum inner- pack type, if no moister is shown to be present, the repacker can seal the raft back up for the first and second scheduled repacks only. If a raft servicing date is three years out of date, ask if it is a vacuum inner-pack type. One would expect some sort off sticker to acknowledge it has been inspected and re sealed in accordance with serving / survey requirements for these type of rafts. If the seal is broken or does not look in tact, in all probability it has not been inspected by a servicing agent. Life raft manufactures place the burden of responsibility to service them with the life raft owner. Is the life raft a Hydrostatic type or a manually deployable type? Hydrostatic types need additional thought when deploying manually. The word life raft conjures a thought process that it's a piece of equipment that is unfailing when all else fails. Over look the importance of this piece off safety equipment and you could be handing in your knife and fork earlier than you expected.

As from 1st January 2003. The International Sailing Federation recommends all life rafts be serviced by a manufacturer approved and certified company. If the life raft is serviced by a service station that is NOT APPROVED BY THE MANUFACTURER then product warranties may be void and any liabilities may well pass to the owner. This also applies when no annual service / survey / inspection has been carried out what so ever, including vacuum inner-pack raft types. The owner under these circumstances is putting all on board at risk including himself. For private vessels it is acceptable for life rafts to be serviced every two years. Any longer it is not acceptable.
Contact the safety Inspector or Maritime Office in your area. They have a list of life 
raft service stations and the brands of life rafts these companies are approvedb to service. These companies are required by Maritime Safety Authorities to have manufacturers training, manuals and genuine spare parts for all life raft brands they are approved to service Also as from the 21st March the new navigation safety rule became law in New Zealand, stating the requirements / responsibility of Skippers from all on board.

4. Do you have a S.S.B. transceiver radio installed capable of transmitting and receiving at a minimum distance of 2000 nms between station to station? Does it have DSC capabilities using NMEA data from the ships GPS or Loran? It is mandatory for N.Z. flagged vessels leaving N.Z. waters to have a S.S.B. radio under CAT 1 regulations. The DSC capability feature allows a distress message to be transmitted with one push of a button on all designated 
emergency channels, if it is installed in the area region you are sailing in an important feature when one is under stress, in a panic situation allowing you more time to gather your wits and grab extra equipment to take in the life raft should the occasion arise. Ask if the radios
where installed by an authorized serving agent. The answer should be yes.

5. Do you have a VHF radio transceiver having a minimum power of 25 watts and capable of working on all standard international channels, with an external cockpit extension speaker and a masthead antenna. Both S.S.B. and VHF radios should have emergency antennas also. The DSC capability feature is also, of major benefit. Each electrical device on the vessel should have its own fuse located on the positive wire within seven inches of its source of power in addition to being connected through a circuit breaker panel. If the vessel does not have a masthead antenna's the V.H.F. should have a range of 12 miles minimum. Does it Work. Do'n't leave them on during an electrical storm - Fork lightning.

6. Do you have radar, which has a minimum of a 16-mile range capability? Does it have E.P.I.R.B. directional finding capabilities and does he know how to use this feature? Does it have guard mode, watch mode and displays rain squalls capabilities. The radar dome if be installed on the spreaders / crosstree have protection for protection of sails making contact as the vessel changes tacks. If the dome is installed on the mast strong brackets and fastenings are essential for securing the dome. The dome should have a guard to protect it from contact of the sails, when tacking, preferably starting and finishing from just inside the shrouds on the spreaders / crosstree on the mast. Like wise for the loud haler speaker if there is one.

Does the radar work and and what setting is it on if on during all night time sailing.

7. Do you have two G.P.S' s and one handheld back up G.P.S. with an ample supply of back up batteries and / or alternative power source? Do they work.

8. What is the fresh water capacity of the vessel? I put 250 gals as the minimum in determining whether I accept a position on board a vessel depending on whether a working and serviced water maker is on board. Another method is 6 litres of water per person per 100 nms of voyage.

9. What is the fuel capacity of the vessel and will there be enough for 6 days continuous motoring at a average cruising speed of 6.0 knots into a moderate head sea [ 2 meters (25 knots winds) ] when we leave port?

10. Are the ships batteries older than three and a half years of age and what is the total amp hour's capacity of such batteries? I accept a minimum of 690 amp hour's capacity and 720-amp hour's capacity if the vessel has a chart plotter,Autopilot, radar and refrigeration, which run of the house batteries. Is there A separate battery for all radio communications. This is mandatory in NZ. I'm not happy with batteries older than 3 and a half years. Two banks are better than one. Do the batteries 
have an amp usage (DC ammeter) and a DC voltmeter? Each bank of batteries must have their own, battery selector switch or multi combination switch. With the chart plotter, autopilot, radar, and one medium size 12 volt refrigerator on all together, they can draw 30 amps per hour and at night with the navigation lights on 30 to 35 amps per hour can be drained from the batteries. Accordingly at night over 11 hours 370 amp hours can be drained from the batteries.
Usually something has to be turned off unless re charging is activated and if they follow the batteries should not drain under 50% capacipcity for longer life. Two independent sets off navigation lights are now becoming mandatory in most recognized world rallies.

11. How many alternators are installed on the main engine? I prefer two to be installed with a minimum out put rating of 80 amps each. If only one is
installed on the main engine then I would expect a 2nd back up alternator to be part of the ships spares including two spare belts. Additional battery charging systems installed on the vessel i.e. wind generating, solar panels and genset, A C alternator, I consider as additional and a bonus if they have AC direct power and not through a inverter..

12. Do the anchors have a swivel connecting the anchor shank to the anchor?chain? Most commercial vessels have such swivels. It always amazes me the number of vessels that don't have a swivel when I walk down legs of marinas.If the vessel does not have a swivel on the anchor shank it usually is an indication as to the importance the owner places on the safety of his vessel. I carry two or three swivels of difference sizes in my baggage so if there is a dragging problem, chain twisting problem and they agree can use for free. Sometimes i SAY THEY CAN KEEP THEM WHEN i LEAVE THE BOAT IF i HAVE HAD A GOOD PASSAGE.

13. Is the length of the anchor chain at least 4 times the length of the vessel? and does he set his anchore at this min lenght each time.

14. What are the types of anchors on board? I expect a minimum of two and one to be a Bruce, Plow, and CQR, Claw or similar design.

15. Do you have a man over board recovery system with a man over board pole, one lifebuoy with marine grade retro-reflective material, with a drogue and water contact activating light attached? When was it last serviced? These systems contain apparatus, with a use by date.

16. Do you have a parachute sea anchor with panels made from [minimum] 8 oz material? Most vessels have devices for survival after disaster strikes, yet many do not stow one of the best devices for preventing disasters, a parachute sea anchor. Check the vessel has deck cleats samson post of a size and in suitable positions for such a device if there is no Samson post / Bollard / Capstan, it difficult to adjust to get the setting correct as the wave distances apart keep on changing from time to time. Is there a large enough Samson post / Bollard / Capstan, to tie off the rode once set and for adjusting? Is the rode set up to deploy or to feed out safely? Have the crew given any thought on a plan to deploy the parachute anchor. You will in all probability have to rely on the skippers / owner's statements and knowledge in this regard but the subject should be discussed. Visit the worlds No 1 and award-winning manufacturer on this device.  W A Coppins - Award winning designers of Para Sea Anchors The best money can buy. Visit their web site for full details and discover why they are the No 1 and award winning Sea anchor makers. With The most advanced sea parachute sea anchor technology - Competively priced for off-shore sailing and recreational boating with the most fully descriptive, easy to follow, without ambiguity, illustrated deployment manual / instructions that I have seen to date, free with every purchase.

17. Do you have an E.P.I.R.B. 406 MHz type or an Inmarsat type , E that has a current service sticker attached? An additional one in the grab bag is a bonus.

When was the battery / batteries last tested? Take note of individual crewmembers that have their own personal E.P.I.R.B. and if you have to abandon ship remind them to take it with them into the life raft.

18. Do you have a grab bag or rapid Ditch survival bag for each life raft on board? Is a crewmember appointed to gather additional items in a dry bag, specifically made available, to take along over and above the contents of the grab bag, to counter and increase your survival chances whilst in the life raft. Items such as sextant, charts, all hand bearing G.P.S and extra batteries, ships E.P.I.R.B. which is normally fixed somewhere, all handheld V.H.F. radios as flares are usually not spotted responded to by passing vessels in the middle of the ocean, celestial navigation tables, emergency water container / s with landyard throwing rope, normally lashed somewhere on deck , in a plastic 20 LT container, plastic because plastic when fit is full still floats in water, and anything else which may be useful.

19. Do you have an emergency water (min 20 litres) container / s stowed on decks?
Water should be stowed in plastic containers as plastic containers always float even when full. Have a double throw line attached for use at all times. Same for fuel.

20. Do you have an emergency fuel container (min 20 litres) stowed on decks and / or an emergency tank that can be switched to?

21. Will there be at least one person on board that has been off shore before? It is a mandatory requirement in the country that I reside in, for a vessel departing on an off shore passage. There have been numerous instances where Crewmembers have gone completely mental once they loose sight of land when there has not been any body on board that has completed an off shore passage. It is considered more than a reasonable safety precaution by enforcing agencies, maritime authorities or appropriate regulatory bodies.

22. Does the vessel have a spray dodger or biminni? It is no fun if you are doing a watch and it is 0300 hrs, blowing 30 knts plus with heavy rain and the vessel does not have a protected helming station. Like wise if it is a cloud less day in the blazing sun.

23. What lightning strike protection does the vessel have? If none chain can be made up to wrap around chain plates / stays, back stays, D shackled and dangled over the sides to the water allowing enough for the lean of the vessel on the windward side. May not be suitable on backstays if S.S.B aerial with insulating cups are in place. Plastic covers to protect marking the sides of the vessel can be added and advisable.

24. Does the vessel have top operating handle and / or self-tailing winches? Do they have spare handles.

25. Does the vessel have a radar reflector mounted in a position at least 20 ft above deck?

26. Does the vessel have a manual operated hand bilge pump securely fitted, on deck or in the cockpit and operable with companionways and hatches shut with a pumping rating of a minimum of 25 gals per minute? (Handles should have its own pocket or cradle for storage.) Is there a spare handle? An additional one installed below decks is also recommended. Check to see if it actually works. One boat - a charter boat did not have connecting a hose into bilge or a handle. It was just there to get a tick by the inspector.

27. What experience does the Owner-Skipper / Captain have and how many ocean going passages has he / she done, where, when and how many miles for each passage? Sailing in unprotected waters over long periods of time is far different and more demanding than day sailing in protected waters, where one can run for shelter or anchor over night. Don't automatically assume if the Skipper / Captain holds maritime documents the Skipper / Captain will be
competent and all will be well with the passage and all on board. Ask the captain does he have medical expertise, advanced first aid qualifications - can do CPR and has detils and sources to directly contact by SSB or or SAt phone with medical organisations should a life threatening situation on board eventuate. There are organizations internationally and regional
ly that provide such marine medical advice. If non off these are available the don't sign a cart blanc agreement that he has the authority to what he can do as a unqualified, non trained medical personel to try and keep you alive. He in all probablity will cause your death rather than save you and if you have signed a disclaimer releasr - well large legal bills for your trustees if they can afford it.

28. Ask for references that can are verifiable not only by e-mail but by phone or fax. Check and verify the authenticity of maritime documents and references. If they can't produce these this can be an indication the Skipper / Captain is incompetent, they are false or has a superior attitude towards crew and requires further investigation. Don't rely on your instincts or personal judgments. Ask what are the worst conditions he / she has sailed in, how many times, for how long and when?

29. Ask how many other experienced crew is going to be on board? If the
Owner / Skipper / Captain is the only experienced person on board there will be problems on the passage. The Owner / Skipper / Captain has to go to sleep some time. Just because he is the owner don't assume he is experienced enough to be the Skipper. Some owners think just because they are the owner they automatically qualify to be the Skipper. Someone experienced has to be on the helm in a majority of tough situations / conditions particularly when sailing off the wind at 165 / 170 degrees of wind angle and who is going to handle / carry out the manual operations of the vessel that invariably occur in these situations. All too often you will see crew wanted notices advertising for a number of crew, no experience required, compatibility is more important. This is because they are usually asking for a payment towards expenses and for you to provide for your own travel costs to and from the vessel. Most experienced crewmembers usually do not contribute towards expenses or travel costs. In a majority of cases they are advertising for novices or no experience needed because their vessels do not measure up to the safety standards that experienced sailors expect and coupled with the above statements regarding contribution towards costs and travel, they know only to well they would not get any experienced punters to board their vessels. Hence the targeting of novices. In addition, what if the skipper falls over board or gets sick or seriously injures himself. Suddenly the novices are in command! Suddenly, you need to know the basics of how to run the boat, how to use the electronic equipment, how to use and operate the emergency equipment, what to do in case of trouble. You join these vessels at your own peril. To go offshore, one has to have considerable courage; it takes a lot of mental tossing and turning to actually sail away and see a city disappear behind you and the witness the entire horizon become one of only sea, that's is the extreme, incredible, extraordinary feeling one gets and it does take a lot of courage the first time to do that. You're leaving behind the telephone booths, friends, fun parlors, acquaintances, and possibly people you tolerate, you don't realize how much you they mean to you until you get out offshore and you have only the people within the immediate vicinity for social intercourse. You can't run to Mum, you can't jump on the phone to friends or complain to the police. If you got a stomach complaint you can't run off to the doctor, you can't call for an ambulance, you can't call the fire brigade; if you are thirsty, and you can't head off to the nearest store or dairy for a energy drink. You just can't get off, and that takes a lot of adjustment, particularly on your first trip / passage.

Your first trip is always the worst and you swear you'll never go back to sea again, but you do --- it sort of gets into your blood and the sacrifices that you've made are more than compensated by nature, beauty. If you are a land lover, most of your home is decorated with framed pictures or photographs, 50 per cent of them would probably be landscapes or environmental. The beauty of being on the ocean is that every night, every morning and every day you have one big picture that is not framed ---- 360 degrees of the entire horizon, and then it's changing every second --- sunsets, sunrises, cloud formations dancing before your very eyes, birds gliding, whales and dolphins breaking the surface of the sea, -- with incredible colours, all together with peace and tranquility. It's like renting a picture to hang on your wall but they are coming and changing them every 6 minutes. That more than compensates for what you have left behind pollution free. Plus there is the adrenalin rush and the sense of adventure and doing something the ancient mariners used to do --- going out and discovering new peoples, new cultures and customs --- it sounds like a dream and fantastic. It's like every dream: it does not come easy. There are sacrifices and certain suffering you go through to enjoy that. You must be flexible and not have a closed mind. Life at sea is one big compromise - everything is a compromise, so if you have not learnt the art of compromising --- Forget it.

Any crew agreement you sign that states you are responsible for your own travel costs and requires you to contribute towards expenses / food / costs, and has a liability disclaimer clause, the signed agreement does not override any countries maritime, immigration, Statutory laws or international treaties / regulations. Once you have signed any agreement that clearly states that your position on board is one of being a crew member then under most maritime laws anywhere, you have been declared as a bonafide crew member by the master / skipper of such vessel. From the moment the skipper decides to set sail, it is the skipper's entire, sole and inescapable responsibility to ensure that all the necessary safety / health / and well being precautions whatsoever are / have been taken in respect of themselves, all crew / persons on board and for the vessel. If you accept to providing your own travel costs don't hand over your travel documents, tickets or what ever to the skipper, under the false statements by some skippers, that the foreign authorities require him at a moments notice to produce same. In most countries they require the Skipper / Owner to sign a document which acknowledges that he (the Skipper / Owner) is liable for all costs, debts, fees, charges, fines, expenses incurred by himself or any crew member on the crew list when entering a port and during their stay in such country, before entry permits / visas are granted to anyone on board. This includes medical costs of any description, broken laws or local customs. They never ask to see travel documents out of the country or medical insurance documents when you are entering their country. Also in some countries, maritime laws / regulations, clearly state any crewmember contributing towards food / expenses, is not a expense sharing and as a paying passenger and designates the vessel to be a commercial vessel. This also puts the vessels insurances in another category. A lot of countries have loose wording, allowing shared expenses as being acceptable for the vessel / craft to remain as a private pleasure craft within there maritime laws providing the owner is on board. However what is the definition of shared expenses? Is a portion off the annual marine insurance for the vessel, anti fouling, general maintenance, replacement depreciated parts and repairs, fuel and oil, which they will / have / incurred anyway for their own presence off being or doing the passage [The owners] and such expenses are incurred without you being on board any way, could be deemed not to be shared expenses. Shared expenses to my mind are additional and over and above expenses that would have been incurred. If the Owner claims for a mishap / damage to his vessel under pleaser craft insurance policy conditions whilst paying crew members are on board and the owner is not on board, in these countries in all probability it is a fraudulent insurance claim if this was not disclosed on the application for insurance. There usually is a wording in the insurance proposal - will there be any persons carried and or on board for hire, reward, or gain. There is also a stipulation that the proposor must declare all relevant information in order that the insurer can correctly classifiy the designation / policy cover / conditions the vessel will be granted. Alot answer no to this question, which is fraudulet and if they claim a do don't declare that they contributing fees / monies for persons on board then they are defrauding the insurance company. Or Cheats to put another way. This could also apply even if the owner is on board. It's only a matter of time before investigators start checking crew member's conditions for being on board pleasure craft vessels in such instances and asking for a copy of individual crew members crewing agreements and interviewing crew members to reduce claims and catch the cheats. It's only when the Skipper / Owner applies to have any body to sign of the crew list that the appropriate authorities demand the skipper to provide valid travel documents out of the country for such people, or post a bond, posting a bond is usually a open signed credit card voucher is zapped and kept - hence no money - and is destroyed when the ship leaves port with every body on board, if asked why adding clearly, you brought them into our country, it's your responsibility to get them out off our country. If he does not, then signing of registration cannot and will not happen and a clearance certificate will not be issued. Accordingly the vessel cannot leave port. So if you think the Skipper has unjustifiable requested you to leave the vessel, and in addition, such action is going to cause you / burden you with non budgeted additional payments, stress, inconvenience you have a remedy already in place plan B if you decide to leave the vessel. The skipper / owner pays and you cash in your own tickets as compensation. In some countries it is a distinct advantage for a crew member to have a signed crew agreement, French territories is one that comes to mind. [ If you are at sea when you are advised that you will be leaving the vessel at a port earlier than a port you have previously agreed to by the Captain, with no transport costs provided, then just refuse to hand over your passport, don't agree to obtaining a visa and advise the authorities you do not wish to enter their teritory and you are prepared to place your passport with the police station and you will be applying for deportation back to your homeland. The authorities in these circumstances will stipulate to the captain that a airfare out of the country to your homeland must be provided for you or the vessel must leave port with all crew on board within a certain time frame. Usually within 24 hours. ] When my travel costs are being paid for, it is reasonable for the Skipper / Owner to hang onto copies provided I witness them and I get to hold the originals. Owners / Captains are guarded regarding these regulations and there implications. Don't abuse the use off this knowledge. Conversely understand the thought process off a Captain entering a foreign port with a casino ashore and one off his crew members has a known / not known, gambling problem or drink problem. The captain is liable if you lose 20,000 dollars at the casino and you can't pay or if you are prosecuted for drunk driving fined and in addition wrote the vehile off in a accident, hence no insurance. It does happen. If you do sign a crew agreement, obtain two copies of it for your reference and possibly insurance investigators.

Some crewing agreements put the onus on the crew-member that they have satisfied themselves as to the safety of the vessel, the competency of the skipper / captain and incorporate such clauses; in addition, disclaimer clauses for negligence are included. Below are two typical US clauses you may come across,

© October 2013

(1) ¡°The skipper hereby declares their belief that the boat is properly equipped and prepared for the planned voyage, and that they are fully competent to manage, alone or with crew. THEY invite the crew to test this statement in any way they wish - by their own inquiries and judgment, or with the help of others. When you sign this you agree that you have fully investigated and found that the boat is properly equipped and that the skipper is capable, fit and competent.

(2) I or my heirs, next of kin, legal representatives, successors and signs, and in consideration of the acceptance as a crew-member of the yacht _____________, do hereby waive any and all claims which I may have against ____________, or any other duly qualified and authorized captain appointed by him, arising out of, or in any way connected with, my participation as a members of the crew of the yacht, and understand and agree that, as a member of the crew of said yacht, I have no recourse or claims of any kind against __________________, and shall hold them harmless against all consequences of my participation as a crew member aboard the yacht.

Now if you are a novice, never participated in an off shore passage, never been sailing before, never sailed on the vessel or with the skipper / captain prior to signing such an agreement, the mind boggles to legal arguments that will transpire, could transpire or should transpire. If the Captain has not been offshore before.* Don't sign such agreements under any circumstances *even if it means they don't take you on board; there is always the next boat around the corner. If you decide to pay your own travel costs to join a vessel of your choosing, you run the risk that when you arrive at the designated port someone has been having you on and no such vessel can be found or the Owner / Skipper has signed another crew person on in your place, that has fronted the vessel in person whilst you are in the process of traveling to such vessel. THESE SITUATIONS DO OCCUR. JUST READ SOME OF THE FORUMS. Additionally as I have determined from website forums, he / she states his / her girlfriend / boyfriend has decided to return to the relationship with him / her and states that you have to leave the vessel after only being on board for a day or so. Usually female crew. Accordingly to protect yourself with some form of redress you should have faxed an agreement for the person, owner / skipper to sign stating / acknowledging liability / reimbursement of such travel costs in the event of them stating you must leave the vessel within 30 days of arriving at the vessel, faxed back to you before you book and pay for such travel costs. If they refuse to sign such an agreement you don't travel. Here is a sample

of a possible agreement

© OCTOBER 2013

Joining vessel travel costs agreement:

Between. ¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*

Residential address.¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*

Passport No. ¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*

Issuing country. ¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*.

AND

Name. ¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*.

Residential address. ¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*

Position. Owner / Captain.

Passport No. ¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*..

Issuing country. ¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*

I captain / Owner of the said vessel ¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*..

Registered No¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*.

Registered at the port of. ¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*.. and on the Boat /

Ships registry of ¨C country ¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*.. herby agree

that I shall compensate in full all travel costs incurred by ¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*..

¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*in arriving at the

said vessel.¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡* at the Port off¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*

¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*.

should I decide for whatever reason his / her crew position offered is no

longer available / vacant within 30 days from the date of arrival in person

at the said vessel, at the Port of. ¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*

In. ¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*..¡*¡*.

Signed. ¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*. Captain / Owner

Dated. ¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*

Witnessed. ¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*

Residential address. ¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*..

¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*..

Phone No. ¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*¡*.

© OCTOBER 2013

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

30. Ask if they are going to provide you with a PFD SOSPENDERS type, manual or hydrostatic inflatable lifejacket combined safety harness with lifeline (tether) that has double clips (snap hooks) and has a crotch strap. Make sure it is at least USCG approved type1 with a minimum of 35lbs buoyancy rating, 
In addition make sure there are some spare rearming kits on board for auto
Type inflating PFD's Don't accept life jackets. Hydrostatic fired PFD's make auto Inflating type's out of date and a thing of the past. Hydrostatic fire when submerged in 10 cm of water, don't fire when wet, in rain, dampness, humidity, from spray, and only need servicing every 5 years unless fired, have a easy viewed inspection panel for you to see the state the firing mechanism is in.

Don't have standard type lifejackets.

Nobody wears them when sailing as they are to restricting & bulky, as was

evident in the Sydney to Hobart Race 1998.

31. Does the vessel have softwood plugs and securely attached adjacent to each skin fitting, to enable any through hull fitting to be closed off, should the skin fitting fail, with spares on board. This also applies to plastic logs and otherthrough hull fittings such as navigation apparatus.

32. Are the vessels skin fittings hoses clamped with double hose clamps or are they crimped? Either is satisfactory.

33. Does the vessel have an offshore rated medical kit and manuals? It is not necessary for you to take your own medical kit except for your own medical condition. As mentioned the Captain is liable for your safety and well being. Space in your bags is at a premium. By all means have a packet of band aids / sticking plasters as the off shore medical kit is usually in a difficult place to get at and also a nightmare to open and find what you require in a short space of time. If you have first aid skills / qualifications, C.P.R. ect or other medical skills let it be known or advertise them on crewing web sites. The one fear all Skippers / Captains have is a major injury on board during a passage and not being able to cope with such by him self. A radio operator's license in addition would almost guarantee a place on board. With both off these you should be free on board, drinks and food ashore paid for if there is nobody else on board, even the captain, with these skills. This would allow you to communicate by the ship's radio whilst the Skipper controlled the rest of the vessel.

34. Does the vessel have an emergency tiller or secondary steering device?
Does it work

35. Does the vessel have a minimum of five fire extinguishers and a fire blanket? Are they serviced in date and ready to activate and not rusty.

36. Does the vessel have a large set of bolt cutters at least 4ft in length?

37. Does the vessel have a depth sounder? Does it work. Has it recently been calibrated.

38. Does the vessel have at least one handheld VHF radio and charger and / or alternative power source?

39. Does the vessel have storm sails or a 4-reef main?

40. Are the gas bottles fitted with a VR1 Solenoid safety Valve & regulator? How old are the gas bottles and when where they last pressure tested.

41. Is there a gas detector (LPG) with automatic shut off sensor, self test 
capability in the galley and a Fume detector, for petrol installed motors or generators, 
installed in the appropriate places, if such fuels are used on the vessel?

I look forward to responses.


© OCTOBER 2013


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## piclarke (Nov 19, 2001)

svzephyr44 said:


> I normally sail alone but have taken on crew for both an Atlantic transit and traveling around the Caribbean. My particular rule is crew contributes to food, pays for their own customs fees (rare), alcohol, smokes and entertainment. This usually ends up being about $10 to $20 per day (some people like steak, some mac and cheese!) I think this is fair. The crew do not add to my financial burden and they get the enjoyment of the experience. I am not talking about taking friends or acquaintances out for a day sail or a weekend, but rather crew that stays on the boat for several months. These are people who almost exclusively have asked to go sailing for their personal enjoyment. I feel no obligation to pay their costs.
> 
> A touchy issue is when crew break things. Cruising boats have things break and I pay the bill. But I have had people drop winch handles overboard, throw dishes into the sea when emptying grey water, and drop expensive electronic remotes overboard. The polite ones pay, the others seem to think I am made of money.
> 
> ...


Roger is there a steering GPS in the cockpit for the crew to steer by or they have to steer by Compass. And is there a steering compass in the cockpit.

Thanks.


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## svzephyr44 (Jun 26, 2000)

piclarke said:


> Roger is there a steering GPS in the cockpit for the crew to steer by or they have to steer by Compass. And is there a steering compass in the cockpit.
> 
> Thanks.


There is both a binnacle compass and the chartplotter. In addition to the chartplotter there are three control heads: GPS, Autopilot, and a multifunction display. So when the chartplotter is turned off you can still see heading, COG, SOG, cross track error, lat-long (all fed by the 5 GPS heads on board) and depth. You can not see radar, chart or AIS targets. The AIS and radar are alarmed and the duplicate chartplotter in the salon is always on so one can walk down and check if the alarm goes off.


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

piclarke said:


> But the question is where does the recreational definition end and the commercial definition start.


In the U.S. it is pretty simple. If you require payment from people that you take on board (whether you call it a "contribution" or "sharing" or whatever else) then you are operating commercially and must have all the appropriate licenses, insurance, certifications, and so forth. If you ask people to share expenses, but will take them on board even if they do not make such a contribution, then you are not operating commercially.

Personally, if I pay then I am a passenger--I will act like a passenger, and I will expect to be treated like a passenger. If you want me to be a crew member then I will not pay you, and if this is an overnight passage then at the very least I expect you to provide me with meals and a berth.


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## piclarke (Nov 19, 2001)

denverd0n said:


> In the U.S. it is pretty simple. If you require payment from people that you take on board (whether you call it a "contribution" or "sharing" or whatever else) then you are operating commercially and must have all the appropriate licenses, insurance, certifications, and so forth. If you ask people to share expenses, but will take them on board even if they do not make such a contribution, then you are not operating commercially.
> 
> Personally, if I pay then I am a passenger--I will act like a passenger, and I will expect to be treated like a passenger. If you want me to be a crew member then I will not pay you, and if this is an overnight passage then at the very least I expect you to provide me with meals and a berth.


Can any body else confirm this. Perhaps that why there is such a high no payment contribution required in the poll.

Reading the forums one gets the impression that contribution is considerably more common than free on board. You hardly ever see crew wanted posts free on board they all seem contribution required posts.

Is that because free on board skippers have readily available crew no's as opposed to having access to local crew that will readily contribute.

Thanks.


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## piclarke (Nov 19, 2001)

svzephyr44 said:


> There is both a binnacle compass and the chartplotter. In addition to the chartplotter there are three control heads: GPS, Autopilot, and a multifunction display. So when the chartplotter is turned off you can still see heading, COG, SOG, cross track error, lat-long (all fed by the 5 GPS heads on board) and depth. You can not see radar, chart or AIS targets. The AIS and radar are alarmed and the duplicate chartplotter in the salon is always on so one can walk down and check if the alarm goes off.


So its only acceptable to look at the chart plotter in the cabin only. Then I suppose if you have not heard the alarm and you are on station 24/7 he must alert you, which is in the standing orders and I assume he is not allowed to return to the cockpit for at least 30 minutes as you do not like personnel / crew to be there because as you say they would have impaired vision from looking at the chart plotter. Your DOC ref. You then would take all the necessary action required that set the alarm going in the first place. Obviously in a major shipping lane only and possibly not when in the wide open high seas cruising in calm waters and 14 knots or so wind.


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## svzephyr44 (Jun 26, 2000)

denverd0n said:


> In the U.S. it is pretty simple. If you require payment from people that you take on board (whether you call it a "contribution" or "sharing" or whatever else) then you are operating commercially and must have all the appropriate licenses, insurance, certifications, and so forth. If you ask people to share expenses, but will take them on board even if they do not make such a contribution, then you are not operating commercially.


This is a true statement because you added the word *"require"* see _46 US Code (USC) 2101, 46 Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) 175.400_ or click on this link at look at the right hand panel under "Consideration." *"Suggesting"* or *"Asking"* is not *"Requiring."* It is generally accepted in my cruising community (perhaps not in your cruising community) that as a courtesy strangers who "volunteer" to crew on a boat will make a contribution to the operation of the vessel. the contribution is normally stated as a "not to exceed" amount, not a per diem price. We go food shopping and split the bill among everyone on board. Sometimes a crew member will buy a tank of gas or diesel as a thank you.

But it is incorrect to assert that any payment to the operation of a vessel makes it "commercial venture." Of course this is the rule for US Flag vessels, other countries have different definitions.

http://www.uscg.mil/d7/sectMiami/pdf/CharterBrochure.pdf

By the way, it is also generally accepted in my cruising community than when invited to dinner you bring a bottle of wine. We call this common courtesy.


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## bfloyd4445 (Sep 29, 2013)

svzephyr44 said:


> *This is not a true statement* see _46 US Code (USC) 2101, 46 Code of Federal
> Regulations (CFR) 175.400_ or click on this link at look at the right hand panel under "Consideration." I am so tired of this conversation, can we only share fact when we are trying to guide others? Is that too much to ask? Yes, maybe I am being rude but I would rather be rude than follow someone's wrong advice.
> 
> http://www.uscg.mil/d7/sectMiami/pdf/CharterBrochure.pdf


Some people cannot get into their heads that's its perfectly fine to get gas, expense money from riders. I took a guy in my boat whose powersteering hose blew out on his boat to Rio Vista to get parts and back, he gave me gas money. Did that mean I was chartering my boat or? No, I don't think so I think he was just making restitution for my expense of helping him.


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## svzephyr44 (Jun 26, 2000)

piclarke said:


> So its only acceptable to look at the chart plotter in the cabin only. Then I suppose if you have not heard the alarm and you are on station 24/7 he must alert you, which is in the standing orders and I assume he is not allowed to return to the cockpit for at least 30 minutes as you do not like personnel / crew to be there because as you say they would have impaired vision from looking at the chart plotter. Your DOC ref. You then would take all the necessary action required that set the alarm going in the first place. Obviously in a major shipping lane only and possibly not when in the wide open high seas cruising in calm waters and 14 knots or so wind.


Your point is?


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

svzephyr44 said:


> But it is incorrect to assert that any payment to the operation of a vessel makes it "commercial venture."


Which, of course, is why no one has asserted anything like that.


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## piclarke (Nov 19, 2001)

denverd0n said:


> Which, of course, is why no one has asserted anything like that.


At what point / amount do you accept a payment to the operation of a vessel makes it "commercial venture." or a commercial operation from the law point of view [ need a commercial licence ] or insurance companies interpretations.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

Not counting boat payments it costs me an average of $133/day used to maintain and use my boat. I don't ask guests to "pay" but I expect them to provide some supplies and pay their way.

But the "problem" posed by the thread is easier; if you don't think what you are being asked to provide to "crew" etc. don't go!


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Why the hell someone will need paid crew on a small yacht? and if needed that will be paid at value market unless someone would chose instead of professionals with a known competence amateurs of unknown ability and that seems plain dangerous to me. What one would pay will depend on prices at a given location.

regarding the title: *Cruising yachts behaving if they're doing us a favour*, are you a professional? I don't understand what the title wants to mean. Doing a favor to whom and why?


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Been on both sides of this discussion. Have only used crew on passages in recent times.
End of this month asked to crew a sistership from BVI to Bahamas. Owner and wife and me my wife. Assume
1. Get there go provision. Given they are supplying the boat we will buy all food/drink. We will go together so what's bought is to everyone's liking.
2. He will buy diesel and pay fees associated with in/out various countries.
3.If we spend time in marinas those fees are split.
4If we visit restaurants those bills are split
5. Transport to/from boat are each persons responsibility.
Above has not been discussed -it's assumed. In short owner of boat is responsible for expenses boat directly generates. Those expenses would exist regardless of who is on the boat. Each person is responsible for expenses they directly generate. Those expenses exist because that person is on the boat. Given running a boat is expensive and the crew hopefully is doing this because they either think it's fun or they want the experience paying for incidental expenses such as food/drink for all seems only reasonable. I've crewed and owned boats for decades I've always assumed this is the way it would be. Then again I've only dealt with people I've known not crew gotten through a service. In that case when interviewing I would be explicit that above is expected. When stuff breaks unless it's due to gross negligence those are boat/owner expenses.


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

how much, original poster, would you charge someone to come into your HOME to help you sail it to another location in paradise. i am certain you would not foot the entire bill for someone eating your food, sleeping in your bed and driving your home, as it were, from point a to point b. and considering that the individual who is a stranger in the home may not know what he said he knows, the owner must remain awake and alert for x days as the new individual learns how to do the work. if the individual actually tries to do the work ....and if the person goes sideways on ye, owner has to make sure all on board are safe and sound when arriving at location marked as a destination. 
so, please tell me again, mr original poster, how these damn cruisers are trying to take advantage of you or do you a favor..lol.....


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## Mr. Bubs (Aug 21, 2013)

I pay my crew in canned meat.


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## piclarke (Nov 19, 2001)

zeehag said:


> how much, original poster, would you charge someone to come into your HOME to help you sail it to another location in paradise. i am certain you would not foot the entire bill for someone eating your food, sleeping in your bed and driving your home, as it were, from point a to point b. and considering that the individual who is a stranger in the home may not know what he said he knows, the owner must remain awake and alert for x days as the new individual learns how to do the work. if the individual actually tries to do the work ....and if the person goes sideways on ye, owner has to make sure all on board are safe and sound when arriving at location marked as a destination.
> so, please tell me again, mr original poster, how these damn cruisers are trying to take advantage of you or do you a favor..lol.....


Forum List Page


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## piclarke (Nov 19, 2001)

Mr. Bubs said:


> I pay my crew in canned meat.


Would you complain if your wife served you with canned meat, instant noodles, canned baked beans. Instant cup of soup as a starter for your evening meal after a full days work. Then she asked you to clean the bathroom. Please tell me.

Forum List Page


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## piclarke (Nov 19, 2001)

PCP said:


> Why the hell someone will need paid crew on a small yacht? and if needed that will be paid at value market unless someone would chose instead of professionals with a known competence amateurs of unknown ability and that seems plain dangerous to me. What one would pay will depend on prices at a given location.
> 
> regarding the title: *Cruising yachts behaving if they're doing us a favour*, are you a professional? I don't understand what the title wants to mean. Doing a favor to whom and why?


Please read again.

Forum List Page


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## piclarke (Nov 19, 2001)

outbound said:


> Been on both sides of this discussion. Have only used crew on passages in recent times.
> 
> 5. Transport to/from boat are each persons responsibility.
> 
> ...


Please read

Forum List Page


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Hi P- I guess we live in different worlds. I crew for friends and have friends for crew. We are all solvent. We are good friends so we don't abuse each other or take advantage of each other. We figure out transport to and from the boat before any of us leave. As I said I have no experience with crew lists or services providing crew so to date none of the issues reviewed in the link you provided apply. I like to eat well. Given we provision together we all eat well. My friends are either working or if in retirement have family responsibilities so they have a limited window for which they are available. Issues of transport back and forth are paramount in their minds. The idea of leaving a friend destitute on a foreign shore is totally abhorrent to me. Would not leave you destitute on a foreign shore either but not knowing you would probably ask for evidence that that would not occur before letting you on my boat. Think it unreasonable to expect a captain to give crew a fully paid vacation unless it is established before the trip that such a professional relationship is what's what asked for. Also think if you abuse crew/friends you won't have crew/friends for long.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

I treat crew on Auspicious the same way I treat crew on my deliveries - crew get too and from the boat on their own and all expenses aboard are covered. ALL. Meals and activities ashore are generally individual but for good crew I'll pick up some of that also. 

Just for reference I usually provision for about $15US/person/day and we all eat quite well.

On delivery I have some outstanding crew that are always there when I ask them. I'll always describe their exploits with me to owners and try to get transportation for them covered.

I've had crew that found sailing with me rewarding enough to take me to dinner, which is appreciated but not expected. After a trip like that I spend some time thinking about what I did so I can do it more often. *grin*


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## CaptTony (May 22, 2011)

This thread certainly has proven to have legs. One thing I have looked for through all the posts (and quite possibly missed) is drawing a clear distinction between two classes of “crew.” 

First, there are the friends who go out for a day, two days, or even a week to enjoy sailing and the camaraderie of sailing. We can include lone sailors who look for previously unknown crew/companions in this category. They may have people on board for longer periods. In any of these instances, if I were the “crew,” I would never even think about not contributing to the operation of the boat. Chipping in a reasonable amount for food, occasional dock fees, and even fuel for the boat is just being a good guest. After all, this is a vacation, holiday, relaxing day off, or whatever you want to call it. Why should you not cover mutual boat expenses?

The second class of crew is just that. There is a boat to be delivered. Get on the boat, make sure it is seaworthy, cast off, reach the destination, and no sooner have the dock lines been secured when the captain or boat owner hands you your bags, shakes your hand and figuratively or literally kicks you off the boat. No way am I going to pay my way to and from that boat or pay any expenses. Food is expected and I don’t mind rice and beans since I’m not a big eater (single life will do that to you), but come on, better food than that should be available.

When I did deliveries years ago, it was poles apart from today’s environment. There was no Internet. You had to go through brokers to find crew and you had to pay them and transport them to the boat and back home. Things are different today with the prevalence of the Internet. Boat owners who need their boats delivered have a good deal with all the people online willing to do it for nothing or even pay to do it. Whether it is right, wrong or even legal, it is not going change as long as those willing free crew continue to step up.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

SVAuspicious said:


> I treat crew on Auspicious the same way I treat crew on my deliveries - crew get too and from the boat on their own and all expenses aboard are covered. ALL. Meals and activities ashore are generally individual but for good crew I'll pick up some of that also.
> 
> Just for reference I usually provision for about $15US/person/day and we all eat quite well.
> 
> ...


And I bet you have no trouble finding crew either! (Give me a PM if you need someone)


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

It seems to me that "crew" get paid, they don't pay. If they are paying they are customers!


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## Mr. Bubs (Aug 21, 2013)

piclarke said:


> Would you complain if your wife served you with canned meat, instant noodles, canned baked beans. Instant cup of soup as a starter for your evening meal after a full days work. Then she asked you to clean the bathroom. Please tell me.


Wouldn't bother me in the least


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

miatapaul said:


> And I bet you have no trouble finding crew either! (Give me a PM if you need someone)


*grin* I have about 400 people on my crew list now. At least half are just in it for the wishful thinking. Most of the rest have sailed with me at least once. Everyone has submitted a resume and we've had an interview. I don't think anyone is unhappy since it doesn't cost them to be on the list and it doesn't cost me anything to include them.


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