# Jack Line - Home Made?



## GMC (Sep 14, 2009)

Wonder if I'm missing something. Rather than paying over one hundred fifty dollars for webbing jack lines, can't I just buy 1 ", type 18 webbing and and make my own? If so and my intent is to run one up both sides and clip lines to base of cleat and then run back to tie off/adjust on stern cleats, what type of clip/biner suggested for one end of each line. I don't want them sewn together at bow point. .58 cents a foot on the webbing looks pretty good.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

WELL

Its a life and death tool i would want to be sure the bargin was not going to die from UV in two weeks 

We just tie off the ends on stern cleats


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## GMC (Sep 14, 2009)

Yes, I would tie off to stern as well. The U/V thing is interesting as I've found nothing to suggest that the webbing is treated any differently for off the shelf jack lines from marine supply sources. That is, I think (and wonder) if it is just basic 1 ", type 18 with heavy duty clip and sewing already done. Actually the price I just saw was for 250.00 for a set.


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## cruisingdream (Feb 7, 2007)

Don't use stern cleats, aft jack lines should be tied off about 6 feet (length of tether)from the stern thus you aren't being draged behind the boat. unless you are bait!


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## jbarros (Jul 30, 2002)

I trust my life regularly to off the shelf webbing while climbing. Lets err on the side of caution and say it does suffer from UV exposure, and you're going to want to replace it once a year, or even twice? I pay about 30c a foot for 18kn rated webbing, and it takes all of, what, 5 minutes to rig them if you have the tie off points/cleats installed? Sounds like a win to me. 

disclaimer: I am not a rigger, nor do I have any professional expertise with boats or life saving devices. 

-- James


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## rikhall (Feb 7, 2008)

On ours we have an "eye" sewn at the bow end that goes under and then over the cleat centered just aft of the bow. We then go back to cleats about seven feet from the stern and tie them off there.

Two questions:

1 - are you willing to trust your life to the webbing (my answer is yes)
2 - are you willing to trust your life to your sewing of the "eye" - again, my answer is yes.

And for that price - I can replace them just about as often I we want. And, I bet I could lift a truck with the webbing. - but that is just a guess.

UV degradation?? Ours are inside the cabin unless rigged. In most cases they don't get rigged because in most cases we stay put if we are going to need jack lines. Always rigged and used for night sailing and we have found that there is not a lot of UV degradation to the jack lines at night.

Cheers

Rik


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

*Sounds good to me...*



GMC said:


> Wonder if I'm missing something. Rather than paying over one hundred fifty dollars for webbing jack lines, can't I just buy 1 ", type 18 webbing and and make my own? If so and my intent is to run one up both sides and clip lines to base of cleat and then run back to tie off/adjust on stern cleats, what type of clip/biner suggested for one end of each line. I don't want them sewn together at bow point. .58 cents a foot on the webbing looks pretty good.


Are you a climber; it sounds like you might be. If you are talking about tubular climbing webbing, sure it's strong enough. I actually use 5/8" dock line, but I have a cat and they are not rigged where they are underfoot. But the nice thing about dock line is that I can leave them set for years; always available at night, when on deck alone, and in storms.

The comments on UV are correct. Climbers see anchor slings in the mountains all the time that are destroyed by the sun.

I have a long posting on my blog about jacklines and such. Perhaps it will give you ideas. Sail Delmarva: Search results for climber

Background: I am an engineer and a rock climber /mountaineer with 25 years experience in all sorts of places.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

*I like that!*



rikhall said:


> Always rigged and used for night sailing and we have found that there is not a lot of UV degradation to the jack lines at night.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Rik


Actually, the same is generally true of all gray weather.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I'd point out that the best jacklines are probably 1/4" or 5/16" spectra core-line with tubular webbing over it... the webbing acts as chafe and UV protection and also serves to make the jacklines easily identifiable under any conditions. THe webbing also makes it less likely to roll underfoot.


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## CrazyRu (May 10, 2007)

sailingdog said:


> I'd point out that the best jacklines are probably 1/4" or 5/16" spectra core-line with tubular webbing over it... the webbing acts as chafe and UV protection and also serves to make the jacklines easily identifiable under any conditions. THe webbing also makes it less likely to roll underfoot.


Yeah, over $2 per foot v.s. $.30 per foot with same result and same strength.
What's the point?


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

*Best is a slippery term:*



sailingdog said:


> I'd point out that the best jacklines are probably 1/4" or 5/16" spectra core-line with tubular webbing over it... the webbing acts as chafe and UV protection and also serves to make the jacklines easily identifiable under any conditions. THe webbing also makes it less likely to roll underfoot.


* Plain webbing would roll even less. If I had a monohull I would opt for webbing and annual replacement.
* The carabiner will slide better on rope. Webbing or webbing with a core is not used in industry or by climber in this application. webbing over spectra core is common for lifting slings, so the idea has president.
* The price is excessive.
* It is impossible to inspect the line, as the rope is not visible. This will lead to premature replacement.

Very high tech with some benefits, but still a compromise, I think. I have probably done more time than anyone on the board climbing (a guess, but it is a lot spread over 25 years, including small cliffs, big mountains, rock climbing, and ice climbing) and I don't think it is a system I would take up a mountain or use in an industrial facility.


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## HerbDB (Sep 30, 2000)

This is what I use. Available from Sailrite $.60/ft. Nylon is more uv resistant than polypropylene although it is a little more expensive.

Webbing Nylon Extra Heavy Royal Blue 1" 5300#


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## hutch5151 (Jul 16, 2000)

Go to cmcrescue.com. You can buy 1" flat webbing for $.44 per foot. It is rated to 6,000 lbs and is used by climbers and rescue organizations. While there, check out their clearance on 75" laynards for $5.00 each. A quick release shackle on one end and a locking carbiner on the other makes a great teather line to hook to your harness. CMC only sells quality rated gear.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

*Aluminumcarabiners are difficult to keep working in a marine environment.*



hutch5151 said:


> Go to cmcrescue.com. You can buy 1" flat webbing for $.44 per foot. It is rated to 6,000 lbs and is used by climbers and rescue organizations. While there, check out their clearance on 75" laynards for $5.00 each. A quick release shackle on one end and a locking carbiner on the other makes a great teather line to hook to your harness. CMC only sells quality rated gear.


Not impossible, but it will take frequent lubrication. I do use the locking biners some, but I have to oil them frequently to keep them right. Fresh water rinse does not seem to be needed.

Aluminum wire gate carabiners hold up very well. Great value, easy on the gelcoat (light), and versatile. Same strength rating as the SS carabiners, in general.


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## wookie (Mar 16, 2008)

Just bought a Platismo 10m pair for £23.00 from a retailer do you want the web page?


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## rikhall (Feb 7, 2008)

hutch5151 said:


> While there, check out their clearance on 75" laynards for $5.00 each.


Hutch

Are you able to give me a URL for that clearance product??

Thanks

Rik


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

*I think this is what he was pointing to...*



rikhall said:


> Hutch
> 
> Are you able to give me a URL for that clearance product??
> 
> ...


CMC Rescue Inc. A good deal.

Then he would add these. CMC Rescue Inc. Personally, I like wire gate non-locking biners on the harness end.

This stuff is in the "outlet" section.

The net is amazing, no?


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## scottyt (Jul 19, 2008)

pdqaltair said:


> Personally, I like wire gate non-locking biners on the harness end.


you should not use a biner on the harness end you should use a snap shackle with a lanyard to release the gate. that way when your hung up or being dragged you can release yourself with out having to pull you weight off the lanyard


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

The webbing works perfect in horrific conditions and makes me feel confidante to do stuff i would not be able to do without it 

The only PITA is when racing we tack a lot and it changing sides is and ordeal


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

*And I have seen many snap shackles released by accident.*



scottyt said:


> you should not use a biner on the harness end you should use a snap shackle with a lanyard to release the gate. that way when your hung up or being dragged you can release yourself with out having to pull you weight off the lanyard


I have seen the "double-squeeze" biners jam up with dirt or ice too many times. Too many parts.

No thanks. I have taken many hundreds, probably thousands of falls on carabiners and they are what I trust. If I want extra safety, I can use 2 biners or an ordinary locker (no auto-lockers - they don't deal with ice, dirt, or salt well).

If I am being dragged, releasing myself is generally a death sentence, isn't it? If there is another person helping me, presumably they would have given me another rope and the existing tether will be released with a knife. There are many on board and 2 under the helm seat.

There are numerous tricks for releasing a biner under load, not easy, but I guess I have done it a lot. There are also habits for clipping biners to prevent them from self-unclipping (never clip to a hard point; clip from underneath, with the gate facing out - this also makes it easier to unclip under load). Safety biners are a lot more idiot proof, so I do understand.

But I understand yours is the majority opinion. I'm OK with that.


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## mintcakekeith (Nov 5, 2009)

I get my jack stays from an industrial lifting gear company ,come with test certs and are much cheaper than from marine or climbing retailers .take them below when not sailing and should last 2/3 years before uv becomes a problem.K


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## harbin2 (Jul 5, 2008)

REI has 1" military-spec. tubular webbing for .36 cents a foot. It is easy to sew a loop at one end and loop through and around bow cleat then run to the stern. Comes in several colors - I use hot yellow. It is rated at 17.8K or 4,000 lb.
harbin2
Islander 30 Bahama


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

*IT is nice to end the jacklines forward of the stern, if possible.*



harbin2 said:


> REI has 1" military-spec. tubular webbing for .36 cents a foot. It is easy to sew a loop at one end and loop through and around bow cleat then run to the stern. Comes in several colors - I use hot yellow. It is rated at 17.8K or 4,000 lb.
> harbin2
> Islander 30 Bahama


This prevents the possibility of being dragged. This is VERY important if the boat has a prop there.

This can be accomplished by having a termination point at the front of the cockpit - that was my answer. However, it occurs to me that is not easy on all boats and there needs to be another answer.

How about a stop of some sort on the jackline? A simple bozo ball or similar is not a good idea in general; most carabiners and snap shackles are not designed for a side load and will loose 50-75% of their strength in this configuration. A suitably sized quick-link could work, though it is better to have both ends releasable.

Of course, the biner sees a similar cross loading when it hits the cleat at the end too, perhaps worse depending on the geometry, so maybe I am over stating the problem.

There is also the issue of fixing the stop on the line. I think a double overhand would do just fine, though there is some reduction in line strength.

Your are all smart guys. Come up with an answer.


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## jbarros (Jul 30, 2002)

While you carabiners are not meant for side load, if you're not out in a hurricane, where the boat gets picked up, and you get dropped from one end of the boat to the other, you're not going to be doing anything vaguely approaching fall factor two. While some climbing equipment (eg, dynamic ropes) will fail before, say, the human pelvis is powdered, most carabiners, even the nice wire gate ones which don't freeze up on ice climbs, are going be able to hold a human in any conceivable situation on a boat. 

My bigger question would be making sure you had locking carabiners instead, nothing would suck more than going back and forth, dragging the carabiner enough to open the gate, and then falling, to have it fall off. 

Of course, if load was an issue, and if you didn't want to be scraping a biner back and forth along your nice cabin top/deck you could make some webbing loops and just clip into those. You'd want to replace them pretty often, but they'd bend so that the load would always be from the correct direction, and they'd be a lot nicer to your decks finish. 

Once again, armchair physics/math here, so please don't bet your life on anything I'm saying. Thanks. 

-- James


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## GMC (Sep 14, 2009)

*Encouraging*

All these thoughts have been encouraging (on the common sense and economic fronts). I don't mind spending money if necessary, but these ideas convince me that with some webbing and a sewing machine, I can have a safe system.


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## jbarros (Jul 30, 2002)

The only caveat to sewing your own loops, as opposed to using water knots or the like is, obviously, but it still bears mention, make sure that the stitching is strong enough to not be the weakest link. Nothing worse than having your last thoughts before being swept off the boat "oh yeah, I forgot, I can't sew" (This is why I personally rely on knots, I know I can tie those and tie them safely. If you can sew, FOR LOAD BEARING GEAR more power to you.  ) 

-- James


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Not sure if it is the right or best way........ I took and put a U-bolt thru the cabin top, then ran some 1" webbing to the bow cleats I got from REI. I do not remember the name of the not other than a reverse overhand. ie tie and over hand knot, then run the end thru and tighten. Typical knot use to tie climbing loops. For working in Puget sound where I am, in 3-5' seas, this will work to keep bow folks on the boat. I am not planning on doing any off shore work in a hurricane or equal. 

I do not personally have a sewing machine that is strong enough to tie loops, and if I did, I would have to trust my sewing, hence why I tied the knot! I trust this more than sewing a loop!

Marty


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## casioqv (Jun 15, 2009)

I am also a climber- and I use my climbing rope as a jackline, tied to the fore and aft cleats on my boat. On my boat (Catalina 22), and probably many others- a taught jackline rests against the side of the cabin, not on the deck so there is no risk of it rolling underfoot even if it's round.

I don't trust the stock cleats to hold against a strong fall, so I tied the ends of the rope together at the stern to make a continuous loop around the boat. This way if one or all of the cleats were to break or rip free of the deck, I would still have a "lasso" around the entire boat.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

blt2ski said:


> Not sure if it is the right or best way........ I do not remember the name of the not other than a reverse overhand. ie tie and over hand knot, then run the end thru and tighten. Typical knot use to tie climbing loops.
> Marty


It is a trace overhand.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

pdqaltair said:


> It is a trace overhand.


Thanks,

I knew it was a something or other! been awhile since I climbed, ie mid 80s, but remember the knot!


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

*Actually, when falling right against the anchor with a nonstretch tether, the fall...*



jbarros said:


> While you carabiners are not meant for side load, if you're not out in a hurricane, where the boat gets picked up, and you get dropped from one end of the boat to the other, you're not going to be doing anything vaguely approaching fall factor two. While some climbing equipment (eg, dynamic ropes) will fail before, say, the human pelvis is powdered, most carabiners, even the nice wire gate ones which don't freeze up on ice climbs, are going be able to hold a human in any conceivable situation on a boat.
> 
> My bigger question would be making sure you had locking carabiners instead, nothing would suck more than going back and forth, dragging the carabiner enough to open the gate, and then falling, to have it fall off.
> 
> ...


factor can far exceed 2. Try a 2' fall on 4' of webbing and see how it feels. Actual, please don't do that. You will be injured.

Yes, the biners on the jackline end must be lockers. It is worth repeating.

I pulled the gate sideways out of a biner once in a modest fall. A bit of rock pressed it sideways. Not on a locker. I knew it was a bad spot and had a backup a few feet away.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

I looked up the knot, it is a water knot

here is a link on how to tie one!
CUSA Press - Inspiring and Informing your Canyon Adventures

Marty


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

At work we have to use fall restraints with clutches that do a nice slow down , the old style would do almost as much dammage as falling


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