# Why all the angst against racing on Sailnet?



## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

I started this thread because there was a direct request for it in the "Fond Farewell" thread, so here it is.

I don't really know what forces are at work to make Sailnet emulate CruisersForum in it's crusade against racing. Is it demographics? A random coalescence of like-minded people on this forum?

This forum has a racing section, but it's woefully underutilized, and generally only discusses professional racing like America's Cup and the VOR. Where are my beer-can racers? Speak up and be heard!

To get my racing "fix", I have to go to other forums. I have to say, the view that cruisers here seem to have of racers is wildly distorted and not really representative of 90% of the keelboat racing crowd.

*Myth #1:* Racers exercise poor judgement.

Busted: Racers do not have a monopoly on stupidity, and the average racer does not make more, or severe mistakes than the average cruiser/daysailor.

*Myth #2: * Racers think they "own" the water and think that racing rules override the COLREGS.

Busted: Every crew and skipper I've raced with, knows that they will be held accountable by law for failure to adhere to the COLREGS, and that racing is not an excuse. In fact, racers know that part of the challenge of racing, is dealing with navigational obstacles. We do _prefer_ that non-racing boats exercise a little courtesy, and perhaps not tack right in our faces, or other manuvers that would be considered rude under non-racing circumstances. We merely ask for the same courtesies that anyone else would ask for.

*Myth #3:* Racers exhibit poor seamanship.

Busted: "Conservatism" is a sliding scale. Levels of risk cannot be evenly applied across the sailing spectrum. Racers sail in heavier weather than some cruisers would risk, but plenty of cruisers have also been lost in heavy weather by letting their schedule dictate the decision to go to sea when they should not have. Like I said in Myth #1: Racers do not have the monopoly on bad decision making.

Do you know what these three myths have in common, and why they're all bogus? Because many racers also cruise! We share common risk assessment strategies and decision making processes. That's why each camp often makes the same mistakes and suffer the same consequences. Unfortunately, we have people firmly entrenched in one camp or the other, pointing fingers, and saying that the root cause is "They are careless racers" or "They are clueless cruisers".

Post your favorite myth, and your supporting argument.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

I race, have for over 30 years, and we cruise. I am a better sailor/cruiser because of my racing experience...

Folks who don't race often misunderstand racing and make lots of assumptions. Most racers I've raced with are also cruisers... I wish more cruisers would step onto a race boat as it would eliminate a lot of the misunderstanding cruisers have about racers..

Now don't get me wrong SOME racers can be rude, raced with a few, ONCE, but for the most part there are as many rude cruisers as there are racers, just like in life.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Do not have time this morning, but will post a "what many clubs in puget sound follow", along with many have in there race rules re crossing traffic lines etc. 

EVERY YEAR, at least here in the sound, there is a meeting with the coast guard re how to fill out on water permits, which gets all kinds of on water clubs there to under stand how to fill out, why etc the permit. One year a Kayak club rep was there, did not understand why after 30 some odd year of 100 kayaks doing a trip across the sound to blake island and back he needed a permit! I've done this in the past.......things have changed in this regard!

Marty


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## jppp (Jul 13, 2008)

Most racers I know have *two *sets of sails.


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## KIVALO (Nov 2, 2011)

Cruisers say racers are arrogant and think they own the water, the same is said of cruisers by racers. The same is also said of sailors, in general, by power boaters. I have nothing against racing sailors, cruising sailors or power boaters, arrogance and cockiness coupled with stupid mistakes are a hallmark of all human behavior and certainly not limited to waterborne activities. The same holds true for sailing. I suspect the biggest hurdle to overcome is the most common, ignorance. Take some time to learn and understand what & why others do and mostly things work out.

Just my opinion.

Brad
s/v KIVALO


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

I work in the commercial side, and wheel house mentality toward all rec. boats, " look at this idiot" obviously not true.
I cruise, and when I see a power boat " what's this idiot doing."
I kayak... Power boater's say about me" look at that idiot"
I drive a dive boat, and see racer's on my intended rhumb line. " look at those dip sh;;t's"
I zoom around in my skiff with the 40 horse. Sailors say, " what's this idiot doing' 
I race in the wreckers beer can race of Key West and I see a guy zooming in his skiff and I say
" what's this idiot gonna do"
I'm back in the wheel house of the tug and I see a container ship miss the mark and run aground, I say" what an idiot"
The harbour pilot wakes me when I'm in the wreckers race and I say " A$$ h&le!"
You just can't win.
All though the racers that come to Race Week in K.W. don't help the general attitude towards racers. They tend to be a little haughty, pompus, and don't tip.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

I've never seen any anti-racer angst here... I have seen a lack of racer input, however. The racing section won't grow without racers adding content.


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

KIVALO said:


> Cruisers say racers are arrogant and think they own the water, the same is said of cruisers by racers.


Most around here would be standing around punching themselves in the face. We've got more 'serious' racing, but also have some great 'relaxed' stuff... Elliot Bay Downtown sailing series from June-Aug (non handicapped, drawings for prizes, free beer and hotdogs.. far more 'cruisers' than 'racers' out), Duck Dodge on Lake Union (crazy raftup afterward, everything from lasers to an SC 70), Take Your Time Fridays (golf handicapped casual racing), and we've even started a local 'Race Your House' for live aboards... amazing what a drawing for a free haul out will get out for a spin around the buoys. Cruisers are planning to meet up with the double handed race fleet at the Saturday stop over during a double handed race coming up next month. Why? For fun, and we're friends. July 3rd raftup for fireworks is coming up. There are literally hundreds of boats out for Poulsbo July 3rd... Racers, cruisers, etc... Raft ups are pretty ecumenical. We had 20+ boats in our club raft last year of all shapes and sizes. 

Did Swiftsure a couple years ago with a dedicated cruiser friend with Pacific crossings, etc... under his belt who was using a trip to the lightship as a 'shakedown' for a relatively new-to-him boat. His thought was the boat gets pushed harder racing. If something's going to break or not work well, you'll figure it out much sooner on the race course. Yep, we broke some waranteed stuff. It was easy to deal with a full crew. Went with a 'race' boat this year. The owner will be leaving the boat up north for cruising season.

In general, I don't really feel any tension between racers and cruisers locally which is why the attitude that pops up often on SN seems so ridiculous... If you only race, you're missing a lot of great sailing experiences. If you only cruise, you're missing a lot of great sailing experiences. I certainly 'get' that people have preferences, but the 'us' vs 'them', it's mystifying.

For Bubblehead, I think the racing forum here isn't used much because there's just a bigger, more active, albeit rougher crowd on SA. I do think the race forum here would be better for people just starting out for answers without as much attitude and angst.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

[Copied over here from the FFS thread.]

I have to admit, in the beginning I didn't get the racing aspect of things. It seemed too hardcore and angst-filled when compared to my desire to relax at the helm with a Dark-and-Stormy, and a bikini-clad babe grinding on the winches.

However, after doing the offshore races over the past year or two - I'm completely sold. It's the most fun and challenging thing I've ever done, and there's no doubt it improves sailing skills better and faster than anything else.

So, that attitude is just ignorance. They don't understand what they're missing - just like I didn't at the time.

I'm still not that into the idea of inshore match racing (where most of the yelling and angst usually occurs) - but I haven't really done much of that yet. So I could change my mind there too.

Sailing is sailing as far as I'm concerned. And I'm not sure I can get enough of it in whatever form, on whatever boat. And this is SAILnet after all.

Offshore racing rocks...especially when we win. And cruising around with the booze and babes rocks too...especially when we score. Heh-heh.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"Sailnet['s]...crusade against racing. "

You might want to rethink that. Sailnet certainly has no crusade, and the forum members don't appear to have any crusade either. I'd just read it as not having an interest in racing, or not wanting to discuss racing _here_ even if there's a forum section for that.

Be glad every sailor isn't interested in racing, you'd have to bid for entry slots in the next race.


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

hellosailor said:


> "Sailnet['s]...crusade against racing. "
> 
> You might want to rethink that. Sailnet certainly has no crusade, and the forum members don't appear to have any crusade either. I'd just read it as not having an interest in racing, or not wanting to discuss racing _here_ even if there's a forum section for that.
> 
> Be glad every sailor isn't interested in racing, you'd have to bid for entry slots in the next race.


Do we have to cut and paste the posts for you? They're most certainly there. Be glad every sailboat isn't out cruising. You'd have nowhere to anchor and the local bay would look like a very crowded race course.


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## night0wl (Mar 20, 2006)

A couple of factors come into play raising angst when racing...reflected in Sailnet since so many people come here *FIRST* when they get into the Sport/Lifestyle. 

1) People buy boats that they cant really fully afford. Sure, they can buy the boat, pay the marina, do the maintenance...but they are literally "paycheck to paycheck" in terms of holding on to the lifestyle. One big expense (and lets face it, racing often induces expenses) can force the owner off the proverbial cliff. Shred a sail because you tried to make a start or finish in so-so conditions in order to secure series points...*poof*...there goes $2000. Get caught in a tight rounding...*wham* $1000 in fiberglass repairs. The thing to understand is that nearly *ANYTHING* can be repaired on a boat good as new. 

2) The running of a regatta along with Racing Rules of Sailing really cause you to become a lawyer to do well. Too often, the rules are used as offensive weapons by those that simply want *ALL* the hardware. Its like this in any sport....but the reality is, many of us boat owners bought into the (false) lifestyle that sailing is easy and laid back with sundowners and gentle anchorages with great views. We all know it *can* be like that, but most times, it isn't. We deal with legal eagles and pushy people at work and our personal lives ashore...and *NOW* on the weekend on a boat *TOO*??? No thanks, I'll just cruise or show up to the after-party! 

3) There isn't an easy way to transition from beginner to intermediate/advanced. Sure your fellow sailors will help you get into the sport and even give you tips...so long as you're in the back of the pack (ie beginner). But get better, and it really becomes stand-offish with these folks. You're pretty much expected to learn on your own to get better and in a position to collect trophies. Or, invest in coaching and equipment...which leads you back to point #1

4) Crew Pools tend to be arrogant or clueless. I've noticed this trend in my region. If someone is decent and crews on your boat and you're not willing/able to provide meals, drinks, accommodations, tickets to after-parties, airfare back home, etc, (even for minor Club or regional races)...good luck getting that person back! Conversely...you could pick up a newbie, but that has its own issues! As a Captain, I'm picking up the entry fee and can provide berth at night aboard the boat...but if you expect hotels, after-party tickets, schwag, and more...sorry, I'm going to the Gunkhole/Cruiser class and dispensing with the arrogance and sailing with 2-3 people that are friends.


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## peterchech (Sep 2, 2011)

*Myth #1:* Racers exercise poor judgement.

Depends on how light the winds are on any given weeknight, and consequently how many beers the racers have downed before the start.

*Myth #2: * Racers think they "own" the water and think that racing rules override the COLREGS.

Classic is the cruiser who sails into the middle of a regatta start when all the boats are piled up and then doesn't know what a starboard boat is.

*Myth #3:* Racers exhibit poor seamanship.

The guys I race with definitely push the boats, and keep full sail up far longer than I ever would in my own boat. They also have a full crew of experienced sailors/railmeat, and when the **** _does_ hit the fan the recovery is quicker and smoother than almost any cruising boat. Muuuuch more yelling though


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Okay - so let's get down to business. I challenge every SiNcitier to the ultimate beer can race. It's called the "Global Regatta". It's completely free. And we already have a record to beat.

*GLOBAL REGATTA SITE*

Here's the deal: You race your own boat around a 5 mile or 10 mile triangle course (using GPS marks) that is set on your own body of water (you can submit a course if there's not already one in your area). You pick the conditions, you pick the sails, whatever. And you do it as many times as it takes during the season to get your fastest time. It's a simple drag race. And the fastest time in each class wins.

Some of the guys here, and several over at SA have taken runs. KaptainKriz (from SA) holds the 5m course record with 58:24. My best was 1:07:25 - because I suck.

No angst. Just underground racing at its finest.

And I buy the winner a case of beer.

So?


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Yeah, puddin, you have to cut and paste some proof of a CRUSADE before I'll believe it. Not just a half dozen or even two dozen members who don't like racing, but evidence that a significant part of the sailnet membership has some kind of active CRUSADE to drive off racers, harasss them, shut down topics...you know, a CRUSADE by a mass of the membership, as Bubblehead seems to state.

Maybe it is the elephant in the room, I sure haven't seen it. Not a CRUSADE and not by any majority of the forum owners or members.


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## peterchech (Sep 2, 2011)

IF YOU ARE SERIOUS ABOUT BEING A GOOD SAILOR YOU SHOULD CREW FOR A SEASON ON A RACE BOAT. It will improve your sailing exponentially.

As has been said by many others, you learn more in 1 season of racing than you do in 10 years of cruising.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Night0wl-

I'll agree with you on #1 and #2, but disagree on #3 & #4.

#3. No, the transition from newbie to racing skipper isn't easy, but in my area, there is free exchange of help and information between skippers. In fact, my "nemisis" and I collaberate before and after every race, and help each other with work on our boat.

#4. Clueless/Arrogant crew: Many but not all of my crew showed up clueless about sailing, but not clueless about tact and courtesy. They are "invested" in the boat, and racing. They contribute to the liquor locker and maintenance. They do not expect swag or lodging. They know they have to pay for their own hotel, or sleep on the boat. Yes, I pay the entry fees but as owner, that's my responsibility. I would never ask them to pay for gear unless something *very expensive *was *totally ruined *by *gross negligence*. It would take a convergence of all 3 of those factors before I'd ask for a penny.

For those of you with the "Who me? _Moi?_" look on your face regarding Sailnetter's poo-poo'ing of racing, do you think I just pulled this out of my butt to start controversy? It totally exists. As soon as I get a minute, I'll try a search of the archives to dig out some statements.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

hellosailor said:


> Yeah, puddin, you have to cut and paste some proof of a CRUSADE before I'll believe it. Not just a half dozen or even two dozen members who don't like racing, but evidence that a significant part of the sailnet membership has some kind of active CRUSADE to drive off racers, harasss them, shut down topics...you know, a CRUSADE by a mass of the membership, as Bubblehead seems to state.
> 
> Maybe it is the elephant in the room, I sure haven't seen it. Not a CRUSADE and not by any majority of the forum owners or members.


Ok, fine. To suit you, I'll revise my comment about a "crusade" to a general disapproval of racing on the part of several or many Sailnet forum participants.

I agree that the Sailnet Forum itself, the moderators, corporate entities or whatever legal jumbo you choose to recognize, probably don't give a rat's shaved tail about racing one way or the other.

Does this satisfy you?


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

I gotta give bubbles some real props for the racing progress he has made...and his shameless brutal honesty in sharing his experiences on CA.
Start a thread here, dude. be the change you want to see.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Bubblehead, darling, don't get all huffy about it. Someone might think...racing was incredibly important to you. (G)

There's a _huge difference_ between not giving a rat's ass about something, and having a crusade against it.

Could the forum be more active in encouraging racing? Sure, but we all should know by now that the forum runs on a shoestring and there are hardly resources to maintain it, let alone actively cultivate new stuff.

Would I like to see coverage of world racing events? The Whit, ergh, Volvo race? The AC? Links to those wonderful interactive maps from the last Bermuda race, before it was over?

SURE.

Now, if you think all that is being neglected out of malice, think again. Maybe there's just no one available to do the job. Have you considered asking the mods if YOU could cultivate that traffic? Post some links, try to grow the racing section? Have they shot you down?

To me it is interesting. I've raced, and worked my way up to 40+'ers and a regular slot. And decided, there's too much yelling and too much expense in too much of that sport, if you're going to take it seriously. And if you're not going to take it seriously...eh, I'd rather just go cruising and enjoy the day. With all the "go slow" equipment like a stereo and cooler and spare dry clothes on board.

You know, if you go into a nunnery you won't find many mini-skirts or hellokitty backpacks. It doesn't mean the nuns don't like them, it just means the folks who DO like them, aren't flocking to nunneries.

Although, the thought of a nun wearing "hellokitty" bloomers under there...Come on, that's gotta be worth a ROFL.


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## night0wl (Mar 20, 2006)

I guess its my area that I sail with the arrogant crew part. I never expect crew to pay for gear breakages. But the other stuff gets just as pricey. For some regional races, here is my budget from a race in Miami

$75 -> Entry Fee (usually includes 1 t-shirt, hat, whatever in the skippers bag)
$20 x 5 for crew -> $100 T-shirts, hats, or other entry regalia
$75 -> Transient slip for a race with a stop...more in Key West!
$7/meal/person -> $140 (nothing fancy, and everyone does dinner on their own)
$10/drinks/person -> $100 (or more if you get a lush)
Awards dinner -> $30/person (bought 3 tickets for those that could make it)

Total Captain's cost for a race: ~$550

This didn't include breakages. This race we got clobbered by a bad storm system. U/V cover on genoa bit it ($600) and the leech cord was taken right out of the main ($100).

All in, $1200 for a race.

If these other costs keep going the way they are, I'm just going to do buoy/beer can racing in my Club and avoid the regattas!



BubbleheadMd said:


> Night0wl-
> 
> I'll agree with you on #1 and #2, but disagree on #3 & #4.
> 
> ...


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

My attitude was formed in part by the fact that EVERY BOAT I have known personally that was rammed and damaged by another got hit in a mark rounding because of an error in judgement or timing on one skippers part and a "screw it, we've got the right of way" attitude on the other skippers part.

Also, if I wanted to race, I'd do it in something fast, not the slowest vehicle I own. 

Having said that, like pretty well everyone here, whenever I get anywhere near another boat on a similar course, I'm racing.


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## jfdubu (Jul 18, 2002)

First, I never really noticed that much angist againest the race set but I wasn't looking either. So, my 2 cents

1) Racing definiatly makes one a better sailor.
2) There's a big differance in beer can racing and 'regatta's' in cost, committment,and pressure to win (stress)

I beer can race with some weekend racing in Narragansett bay and have for 15 years, the last 8 on my own boat. I'm competitive but rarely bring home silver. I still use the white sails I bought 5-6 years ago (due for replacement next year) and my _*annua*_l racing budget is about $600.00 not including boat maintenace. It doesn't have to cost a fortune to race for fun. If you're doing the BI or KW race week, that's a differant level of committment and hense cost.

The most important thing is I have fun. I help my fellow competitors, follow the rules and don't do stupid stuff (matter of opinon). I do press my boat, sail agressively in conditions I wouldn't if not for the race but thats what makes one a better sailor. I do not put my boat or crew in position where damage or injury is probable. My boat is my baby and she will not be hurt.

If your personality is such that if you race you must win at all cost, race in the big boy spinnaker class where that level of talent and committment is expected. If your out in your 30' racer/cruiser for fun lighten up and sail fast. If you finish in front, help the guys in the back. After all to get to the front you probably got that help when you started in the back.

Also I cruise like I race. To me there's no sense in cruiseing with sails not trimmed properly.

Cruisers, join a beer can race an see how you do. Most series are $100 for 10-12 races and it's an excuss to get sailing on a weeknight.

Have fun, sail fast.

John


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## AdamLein (Nov 6, 2007)

Myth: it's possible to make sweeping generalizations about either racers or cruisers with nothing more than anecdotal evidence to back up your claims.

Busted. Without data, rigorously sampled by a method analyzed for bias, you basically don't know anything at all.

Maybe racers are less cautious than cruisers; you can't refute the claim simply by saying, "Sometimes cruisers are careless too," anymore than you can point to one race boat with casualties and say that that proves that racers are reckless.

A better method is to define an unambiguous statistic, for example:

- boats lost per mile sailed
- fatalities per day
- dollars of damage per voyage
- COLREGS violations per year (probably hard to measure)

something clearly defined, and then average that value for all racers in a given time period and all cruisers in the same time period.

Another (probably even better) thing you can do is look at people who both race and cruise, and measure the same statistic for them and see if their behavior is different in the different circumstances.

Otherwise we have to assume that any claims made are based on guesswork and preconceived notions.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"A better method is to define an unambiguous statistic,"
Now those are real hard to find, even when someone is making a hard effort to provide them objectively. For instance, boats lost per mile.
If racers lose more boats, that doesn't mean they are being less cautious. A fellow driving a big expensive boat once asked me "How far can we go in on this tack?" aiming inside a headland to avoid adverse currents before we tacked back out. I said "How far in do you want to go?" and he said no, that's my job. I said as far as I knew, he said we had about a 6'6" draft and I'd be glad to take him into seven feet of water, but since I didn't own the boat, I thought thta ought to be HIS decision. Personally, I didn't want to run into ten feet, because I knew there was 'stuff' including stray rocks, shopping carts, and sunken ski boats down there.
So where's the call for caution? Reading the charts more closely, reading the tide height more carefully, is giving your keel one foot? two feet? six feet? of clearance more CAUTION or simply more attention to precision and detail?
You don't win coastal races unless you go rock-hopping. Caution might say to stay further off--_or _simply, to pay more attention while standing in.

My own rule of thumb is that if you can't roll the boat without getting the masthead stuck in the bottom, the water is too shallow anyway. (VBG)

Fatalities? One day we passed a tupperware around the cockpit so the gents could pee while remaining secure on the high side. Ask the USCG about cruising drunks, found floating with open flies. Does that make the racers safer? We were using the tupperware for speed (weight high) not safety.

Oh, yeah, never drink from unlabelled tupperware, you never know what it was used for.


About the only certainties you can peg on racing and cruising, is that racing will happen in worse weather conditions, simply because it is scheduled for NOW, while cruising, you don't really have to go out NOW you can always do or go something else. And cruising, you're likely to have more BWI problems, since racers don't carry dead weight--like booze. You pick that up after the finish line. (If you're passing out beer with lunch, you're still drugging your crew during the race, and that's not racing, that's putzing around.)


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## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

By way of background I don't do windward/leeward races even at the beercan level, but might if I lived closer to my boat. I do like distance races and try to do a few every year depending on how life gets in the way. I also think my position on the boat owner spectrum probably places me much closer to the guy that really can't afford to break anything, or do much to optimize the boat for racing than I'd like. So, I pick the races that appeal to me and will push myself and my boat to the extent I'm comfortable that no one is going to get hurt and nothing is going to be damaged. If either of those things appears likely, I'll sacrifice the race and do what needs to be done to make sure it doesn't.

Like others have mentioned, racing provides opportunites to expand your experience and thus your comfort zone. Sailing in higher winds, dealing with other race boats, dealing with commercial traffic, sailing at night, navigation, sail trim, understanding weather and current and many other skills (cooking underway for overnight races) that many day sail type cruisers just don't get to experience. For someone with serious cruising ambitions, overnight distance racing is a great way to gain the skills needed to head out over the horizon. However, many cruisers enjoy day sailing from one anchorage or marina to another only in the most benign of conditions, and don't need or care to deal with the admittedly more difficult aspects of racing (many which also apply to longer distance crusing). I don't see that as a reason for derision, though it seems many many racers have nothing but contempt for such folks.

I really have never understood it, since so many "racers" on internet forums are really only crew that don't own a boat, and then only a few of them actually sail on boats that win. Therefore if we look at it coldly, they are really just non-boat owning loosers, that have never been resposible for a boat or crew, that like to prop themselves up by trash talking a guy that owns his boat, makes the decsions and takes the responsiblity for those decsions. I think guys that own raceboats and cruisers at least have the understanding of being responsible for a boat and its crew in common and it seems to me they are less likely to be the "racers" that dump on cruisers.

As to cruisers dumping on racers, I haven't really seen that though I do have a lot of cruiser friends that look at me funny when I try to get them to either race their boat or come out with me on mine.


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

I don't know about these supposed animosities you speak of. 
I felt a bit negative about organized racing until I got involved about 6 years ago. Now I try to make every Weds. and some Sunday races. It really speeds up the learning curve and sometimes the heart beat rate - which is why I like to bring along beer.
It is fun to get out on the water with other boats and try to out sail the competition even if it is organized. 
Stuff sometimes happens whether racing or just sailing. Meh! It is the diligent sailor who wins the race and arrives safely.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

night0wl said:


> A couple of factors come into play raising angst when racing...reflected in Sailnet since so many people come here *FIRST* when they get into the Sport/Lifestyle.
> 
> 1) People buy boats that they cant really fully afford. Sure, they can buy the boat, pay the marina, do the maintenance...but they are literally "paycheck to paycheck" in terms of holding on to the lifestyle. One big expense (and lets face it, racing often induces expenses) can force the owner off the proverbial cliff. Shred a sail because you tried to make a start or finish in so-so conditions in order to secure series points...*poof*...there goes $2000. Get caught in a tight rounding...*wham* $1000 in fiberglass repairs. The thing to understand is that nearly *ANYTHING* can be repaired on a boat good as new.
> 
> ...


I agree with everything you said - except for #4. I started crewing in ocean races last summer. I was definitely a newb - and it showed. But I worked my butt off and knew enough to outweigh my deficiencies. So I was invited aboard for a 300 mile race/return. And I was able to contribute. I found out I'm a pretty good driver and trimmer.

It was a pretty intense boat. 4 of the crew had raced together (and a couple had a tremendous amount of experience, one of them with a leg of the Clipper race on their CV). It was stressful - and we still didn't do that well.

On that trip, I brought my own food (per the skipper's instruction), and paid for my own hotel. And it was fine with me. I was just appreciative of the opportunity to learn - and still am.

The skip was generous and paid for the A-P tickets (as well as all the other racing fees). So in all it was great.

But, here's the deal, crewing is a transaction. I owe you everything I've got when I'm on your boat. But if there are better options available to me for crewing, I'm going to take them. I don't owe you when I'm not on your boat.

This past fall I got on a different boat for a 150 mile race/return. On that trip, the skipper and his wife provided the food (which was outstanding stuff). He allowed us to sleep on the boat. He also provided us the tickets to the A-Party, and gave us a t-shirt for his boat. Very generous dude. I didn't ask for or expect any of that. That was just his part of the transaction. And I'll continually do everything I possibly can to deserve that generosity and trust.

More importantly, though his boat is in prime condition and he's extremely competitive, the trip was WAY more laid back than the other. YET, WE WON our last race!

So, you add all that up...who do you think I'm going to crew for?

Don't forget, Captains can be arrogant too thinking their boat is all that. It's always a transaction.

PS - At this point I prefer racing on the "slower" boats. It's more about fun and learning than intense competition. And when you still win - we'll that's just gravy, baby.


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## CBinRI (May 17, 2004)

night0wl said:


> A couple of factors come into play raising angst when racing...reflected in Sailnet since so many people come here *FIRST* when they get into the Sport/Lifestyle.
> 
> 1) People buy boats that they cant really fully afford. Sure, they can buy the boat, pay the marina, do the maintenance...but they are literally "paycheck to paycheck" in terms of holding on to the lifestyle. One big expense (and lets face it, racing often induces expenses) can force the owner off the proverbial cliff. Shred a sail because you tried to make a start or finish in so-so conditions in order to secure series points...*poof*...there goes $2000. Get caught in a tight rounding...*wham* $1000 in fiberglass repairs. The thing to understand is that nearly *ANYTHING* can be repaired on a boat good as new.
> 
> ...


Not sure I agree with some of these points. To give you an idea of my background, other than a bit of lake sunfish sailing as a kid, I didn't start sailing until my thirties. Started racing about five years ago, mostly non-spin. Racing consists of weeknight beer can and some Saturday afternoon stuff. While it is nearly impossible to avoid feeling like a big dope early on in the process, I haven't experienced many of the negatives that you listed above.

We raced with worn sails for the first couple of years. Figured we weren't going to win all that much while we learned the ropes. Have since bought some sails and, as our crew has come together, we have gone from near the lower half of the fleet to very competitive. We have never collided with anything or ripped a sail. And if money is keeping someone from racing, there are a lot of classes that don't allow exotic materials for sails and have rules that discourage spending money. Yes, we spend money keeping our boat up, but would anyway if we were only cruising. We know MANY people who race 30 year old 4KSBs (afffectionately, 4 knot s*** boxes) or go one design with a used J-22 or Ensign or something of that nature, that did not break the bank.

I also would suggest that having to learn the rules should not be that daunting. With rare exception, a new racer should be fine if he remembers three basic rules: starboard has ROW over port; leeward has ROW over windward, and if a boat is right on your rear at a mark rounding, give her room. (And maybe, as a beginner, a fourth rule: if in doubt, give way.) So I would suggest that the rules part of things really shouldn't scare people off. In my experience, protests are rare. I have never protested anyone nor has anyone protested me. (I might, if I had a good reason, though.) I guess my point is that a new racer can get up to speed pretty quickly if they don't allow themselves to be intimidated.

The biggest obstacle for a new sailor is finding good sailors who are willing to race with an inexperienced skipper. People like to win. So as a beginner, you often will have inexperienced sailors crewing for you. But if you stick with it you can grow as sailors together and as you improve you may be able to attract some better sailors. And once you are drrawing better sailors, you will improve at an even faster rate. And there is no doubt that racing on a regular basis will improve your sailing skills. Also, if you're anything like me, racing once a week will make weekend sails a bonus, and may reduce the pressure that you put on your family to get out every weekend.

And yes, I buy beer for the crew. And lunch for longer races. A worthwhile investment, IMHO, as it adds to the overall fun and makes people more likely to come back, when asked.

I was on the fence for a long time but I am very glad I tried racing and would encourage those who are considering it to get out there and mix it up.


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

puddinlegs said:


> For Bubblehead, I think the racing forum here isn't used much because there's just a bigger, more active, albeit rougher crowd on SA. I do think the race forum here would be better for people just starting out for answers without as much attitude and angst.


Actually kind of enjoy the SA abuse of "burn it down and buy something else." hehehe. Seriously SA does pull together the racing crowd a little more, and it most certainly IS the attitude there that brings people here. Also is the attitude brought from THERE to here that generates a lot of the tension.

I'd argue that most racers also cruise too. I'd also argue that all cruisers also race... My father was always a big cruising guy (large RV on the water), and he always said "Q: Two sailboats are on the water, what are they doing? A:Racing"

So with sailing as a sport dwindling, for various reasons, it sure seems dumb to have any kind of in-fighting, especially if there is any truth to what I say above.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

(Sorry bubble, I couldn't resist.)


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

KWRW - don't get me started on that elitist group of overpaid pro's and promoters destroying what made them famous in the first place. 

Race will always make you a better sailor. Period. I've raced with cruisers with 10-20-30k offshore miles under their belt, and they suck at racing. Flat out. It's a slightly different mind set and skill set. But it makes a huge difference on the race course. That's one reason I love racing so much. It takes a few classes to learn how to sail, it'll take the rest of your life to master it. 

Some people (in annapolis) think they're a lot better than what they are. Mostly the "pro's"/semi pro's" who are flat out ass holes. They could work at a Dairy Queen and still be an ********. Assholes are everywhere. The real pro's, the ones giving seminars, the sailmakers, the riggers, are extremely professional, don't yell, and help out way more than they should. Very nice people. 

As to the other point, it's hard to find good crew. If you want to keep them, buy them a shirt, a lunch, a drink, or sail at the back of the pack. The good sailors are going to go where the swag is. The newer generation of professionals aren't rewarded for loyalty. Just like in any sports, there's no incentive to stick around. Look at it from a crew's perspective. If I can get free food, drink, swag, hotel stay, travel fair, sailing on a carbon sled in a competitive fleet, why would I shell out that kind of money busting my ass and giving up my weekend for someone I don't know on a slow boring boat? 

I don't bother with talking about racing here. SA has better info for that scene, and I accept it for that.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

I raced foredeck on the Chesapeake for 30 years. These days I'm in the afterguard. 

I show up on your boat on time. You feed me lunch. I help you race. I show up early and stay late to help with the boat. I bring tools. I drive often out to the start and back from the finish to give the skipper a break. 

I do that for a season you darn well better show your appreciation with a shirt or a hat and if you win silver I want some additional expression of thanks. It doesn't have to be swag - it could be appreciation. If I do a backhaul for you ("you're a delivery skipper, can you bring the boat back?") you better do something for me. 

It is more than a transaction. It's a relationship. It better be a good one or I'm walking.

Is that straightforward enough?


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## BarryL (Aug 21, 2003)

Hey,

I have not seen much anti-racing stuff here. But, I only read a few forums, the general discussion, boat buying, and maintenance. Every now and then I will check out the destinations or seamanship areas. I never visit OT. 

Like many others I started racing to become a better sailor. I have no desire to race my own boat, I have been crewing for 5 years now on the same boat. To be perfectly honest, I could take it or leave racing. When the wind is light it's boring. When new crew show up and don't help, it's frustrating. When the weather is good and the crew and good and we do well it's rewarding.

I have learned a lot about sailing (and found out that I know what I'm doing too). 

I continue to race (just beer can type stuff, nothing too serious) because I like the skipper and he has a very well prepared boat.

Barry


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## CapnBilll (Sep 9, 2006)

I think we are all racers at heart, if two sailboats are on the water, tell me they aren't racing.

There were some threads discussing the suitability of racing boats for cruising. The jury is still out on who will win that one, but hardly an anti racing campaign.

My boat designed for weekend cruising is VERY different than the local racing sailboats I've seen. I have a full galley, and head for one, and most of them are an empty shells with a bucket head, (a very small lightweight bucket). And have a large strap bolted to the keel for quick pickup and drop into water. no thru hulls, bilge pump is a cup, etc...


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

SloopJonB said:


> My attitude was formed in part by the fact that EVERY BOAT I have known personally that was rammed and damaged by another got hit in a mark rounding because of an error in judgement or timing on one skippers part and a "screw it, we've got the right of way" attitude on the other skippers part.
> 
> Also, if I wanted to race, I'd do it in something fast, not the slowest vehicle I own.
> 
> Having said that, like pretty well everyone here, whenever I get anywhere near another boat on a similar course, I'm racing.


Not my experience at all. Sure, I've seen collisions and have been involved in some bumps over the years and there is a boat or two around here that I keep a careful eye on, but do insurers in BC (ICBC?) underwrite these folks with multiple accidents and repair claims? Did a couple of season in Van and don't recall any collisions at all though we did have a boat from Victoria claim right over us when we where on starboard and in sequence for this year's Swiftsure... maybe it's a Canadian thing.


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

SVAuspicious said:


> I raced foredeck on the Chesapeake for 30 years. These days I'm in the afterguard.
> 
> I show up on your boat on time. You feed me lunch. I help you race. I show up early and stay late to help with the boat. I bring tools. I drive often out to the start and back from the finish to give the skipper a break.
> 
> ...


hmmm.. We sail with a group of friends. Our 'relationship' is based on this, not on a particular boat or boats. We just like to sail together. We're also kind of a training program for a larger boat that just isn't safe for someone with very little experience. We don't have budget for swag. The crew would rather have what money there spent on the boat. In lieu of swag, we provide a great learning platform and just have a good vibe on the boat. We're not at the back of the fleet by any means. I also do all the double handed stuff we can schedule... it's just really fun! And let me get this straight, I owe my crew something for giving them a spell at the tiller? Driving is a privilege based on mutual trust and experience. The thanks my crew gets is that their efforts are acknowledged and they are thanked for making the day a success. If it wasn't fun for them, it's not fun for me. We do have our own tools and beer that we share.


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## arf145 (Jul 25, 2007)

smackdaddy said:


>


Not even going to say sorry--this is indeed a whiny thread. I've seen no anti-racing bias on Sailnet in general, and if it is going on in the racing forum, then this thread should have been started there. But I have to admit this thread has planted the germ of a bias in me. I'll try to keep it under control.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

When I single hand down to my house in Guanaja Honuras every Dec. on my enginless 1965 Soverel 28 racer Cruiser, I alway's try and beat my last time. My record so far is 5 day's 14 hours 26 min 9/100's of a second.. In ideal conditions and with my new A-sym. I think I can do it in 4 day's 14 hours and 
8/100's of second. I'm a closet racer.
I wonder if I get a Ted Coppel Hair do and a blue Fleece vest I'll pick up a few knots?


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

arf145 said:


> Not even going to say sorry--this is indeed a whiny thread. I've seen no anti-racing bias on Sailnet in general, and if it is going on in the racing forum, then this thread should have been started there. But I have to admit this thread has planted the germ of a bias in me. I'll try to keep it under control.


I was just kidding with Bubble. I think the thread belongs here - as it has to do with cruisers harshing racing - not racers harshing cruising.

Hang on a minute...I'll create another graphic for you...










There we go - now everyone is equally represented.


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## Allen-deckard (Jul 26, 2011)

Im just currious
Are you saying there is hostility torward racing on the forum? Or are you saying there is basically a lack of interest in racing that you want see changed or are you saying that people are scared of racing?
Definition of ANGST. : a feeling of anxiety, apprehension, or insecurity 

I only ask because of myself i just simply have no interest in racing. Ive raced pretty much everything that has wheeles and a few things that dont in my life mostly amature but a bit of pro if i want to go fast ill go back to raxing funny cars i have nothing against it think its great that people find there nitch.

As far as making a person a better sailor i have no doubt of that. Then again i could make the arguement that my days midget car racing made me a better driver on the streets but most people driving up to get icecream dont really need those skills.

Again im sure that my skills would improve in sailing but honestly havent really seen a need i get to where im going when i get there. So angst? Indifference maybe lack of interest is most likely but i dont mind anyone else discusing it.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

I think it's the culture of racing or the "racer" that has turned some cruisers off. I alway's plead with newby's not to enter the sailing world via the "race crowd', not the "act of" racing. For me, sailing is a way of life. for others it's sport. Not "A sport" but just "sport" I cringe at the word " water sport" For me it diminishes the spirituality and enlightment of the art of moving about the water. That's for me. I have good good friends that race and I'm proud of their accomplishments. I'm more of a Bernard Motissie' disciple than that "GO GO GO!" guy who won those Americas cup races, whats his face?


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## night0wl (Mar 20, 2006)

No offense, but I think its highly unlikely that you're likley putting in nearly what the Captain/boat owner have put in when you factor in the fact that they *BOUGHT AND MAINTAIN A BOAT* and are responsible party if anything were to go wrong (can you say liability).

Thank *GOD* builders are wizening up to this and modern boats are getting easier and easier to sail short crew/short-handed. With a Code-0 on a furler, I think I can club race competitively with just 3...myself, wife, and 1 more for crew!

The tide is starting to turn in our Club. There's been a decisive change in attitude as Captains have dumped their older boats (that needed 5-6 people) and gotten more modern designs that are sailed entirely from the cockpit. I'd gladly give up a few degrees of downwind performance with a true spinnaker or asymetrical vs being able to sail with just 3 people *EVERY* race and not missing races due to being too short on crew to fly the kite.

BTW...thanks! This quote just convinced my wife to buy that Code 0...bonus!!!



SVAuspicious said:


> I raced foredeck on the Chesapeake for 30 years. These days I'm in the afterguard.
> 
> I show up on your boat on time. You feed me lunch. I help you race. I show up early and stay late to help with the boat. I bring tools. I drive often out to the start and back from the finish to give the skipper a break.
> 
> ...


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

night0wl said:


> No offense, but I think its highly unlikely that you're likley putting in nearly what the Captain/boat owner have put in when you factor in the fact that they *BOUGHT AND MAINTAIN A BOAT* and are responsible party if anything were to go wrong (can you say liability).
> 
> Thank *GOD* builders are wizening up to this and modern boats are getting easier and easier to sail short crew/short-handed. With a Code-0 on a furler, I think I can club race competitively with just 3...myself, wife, and 1 more for crew!
> 
> ...


I did'nt understand half that garb or the mentality behind it. I supose that is the difference between us. Ya'll seem pissed at eachother before you even get off the dock. Your crew doesn't appreciate you, you don't appreciate them, back and forth. Where's the fun man? You wanna own a race boat and be in a "club' well, that cost money. "Aint no one gunna feel sorry for you." it's your choice. My freinds that race complain about how they are treated by the "yacht" owner/ skipper" and I say . "what did you expect? you now the culture.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Myth: Racing skippers are a bunch of yellers and jerks, as is the “race culture”. Untrue. Skippers racing and otherwise are no worse (or better) than the general population. Personalities don’t change once you climb on board. My personal experience is the yellers and screamers trend to be the less skillful ones who try to make up for their lack of abilities by yelling/blaming others. It has been my fortune in my racing career of rarely having to sail with such types. Pros have a lot of pressure on them. If they don’t perform, they are back to tending bar and delivering pizzas. The less skillful of these types do yell and scream. 

Race crewing is just like everything else in life – you get out what you put in. You start out with limited skills in limited positions. You crew on slow boats and boats with yellers. You get better, your reputation precedes you and you start to get asked to join better boats. After a while you get to pick and choose the rides you want and not have to "beg" to get onboard. When faced with the choice of crewing for a guy who doesn’t provide for his crew and another who does – well the choice is simple for me. The guys who provide for their crews tend to be the ones who are the better managers and campaigners and also tend to be the ones who win more often.

Back when we were campaigning Freya in crewed races, we had the reputation of being a great “starter” boat. We had a solid program, a consistent finisher, well funded and a skipper (me) who could develop talent. We had a combination of really good, seasoned sailors which enabled me to bring on new guys and develop talent. Unfortunately, along the way, I would also have to weed out the underperforming ones. Such was our reputation that a beginner crew after a few years on Freya would start getting recruited for faster, hotter boats. We were a Triple-A Farm Club for several of the hotter racers in our marina. The relationship worked out well for us as we attracted better sailors and could always count on one or two off the other boats to race with me on any given day.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

I posited the question in the other thread cos I'd not seen any evidence of so called angst re racing. Disinterest, yes but not outright aggro agin the racers. 

For my part I am one of those with little interest in organised races. The stress levels at the start are too much for me I'm afraid and I don't go sailing for the stress. Nonetheless, yep, if you go past me I'll next be seen fiddling with the sheets. 

I'm the sometime leader of our clubs Cruising Division'. Didn't want to do it but others seemed keen to get the thing up and running and while Sailaways are not really my speed (refer Misanthrope in your local dictionary) I was prepared to sacrifice a few solitary weekends for the greater good. I've found the whole thing utterly dispiriting cos it is blindingly obvious that 99.99% of the club's membership are in it for the racing and the social events, very few have any interest in cruising except as a concept.

Now all that is fine by me, don't get me wrong. I mention it cos I figure most of you are probably typical of our club. Your primary buzz from sailing comes from racing, be that twilights, weekend round the cans or offshore. 

So take the advice offered by Smack and others .... talk about it. That way you'll get interest and discussion flowing. 

Afterthought .... much as I like CA, I've never ventured into SA beyond that. Is it the news features on SA or the general rumbunctious nature of SA that is so appealing ? I can understand the young blokes (and sheilas) getting their kicks from SA but how about you older folk ? 

So talk talk talk and if there is anything I or I guess any of the Mods can do to advance your cause I'll do my best to assist.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

Just to stir the pot Iit seems like that sort of thread). FWIW, I have raced in the past.

* Racing is dull. By that I mean it is one-dimensional. Go fast. Yawn. I outgrew that very quickly. And there is NOTHING as dull as a race when the wind dies. You are forced to concentrate on... nothing.
* "One year of racing will teach you more about sailing than..." What complete rubish. Perhaps, compared to a cruiser that only drifts, but not at all compared to a fast cruiser that sails in all conditions, generally short handed. And you will learn less of the rest of seamanship.
* Racing cruising monohulls is like a whispering contest anyway. Like racing houses. Better, race one-design. Then it's not about wallets or who can cheat the rule best. Identical boats; you're either fast or your not.

I don't care if others race one way of the other. Actually, I'm glad they don't cruise.


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## svHyLyte (Nov 13, 2008)

I have read through this entire thread (but not without some difficulty) and I am still wondering where the "Angst" come in pertaining to "Racing". If I recall correctly, angst denotes the emotional struggle one has with enduring the various burdens of life and believing, but not knowing when, relief/salvation will appear. A man in a life raft that fears he will die suffers anxiety. A man in a life raft fearful of dying but "certain" he will be rescued, eventually, but knows not when, suffers angst.

Beyond the foregoing, I have observed that many (most?) cruisers are commonly former racers that have decided that the relative certainty of "getting there" is more important than the necessity/possibility of "getting there" first. Yet, I do not know of many cruisers that, when finding another yacht laying the same course as they, do not "harden up" a tad, or trim for speed, and take a certain pleasure out of over-taking a yacht ahead or leaving another disappearing over the horizon behind. They are not racing, of course, and those left behind, or over-taken, console themselves with the thought/rationalization that they are "just cruising" and have no interest in/wish to "break the boat" such as the "idiot" who's wake they are following.

I raced for a l-o-n-g time. I finally quit at the point at which I felt like I needed to keep a copy of the USYRU's "Racing Rules of Sailing" on deck or, worse, attend "Seminars" (offered by USYRU) on the "Rules" and/or how to approach/participate in Protest Hearings. When one needs a Rule Book on deck because the sportsmanship has fled the sport, I'm done. Despite the foregoing, I have found that a majority of current/former racers are often, if not always, better seamen/women than those that have not thrown their hats in the ring--even if only "around the buoys".

Having said all of the foregoing (to likely no good end) will someone kindly explain where the "Angst" comes in for my edification, or should, perhaps, that term have been "Antipathy" considering that some find "Racing/Racers" an object/objects that evoke intense dislike and to be avoided.

FWIW...


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## DrB (Mar 29, 2007)

*Racing has made me a better sailor*

While I don't race my own boat, I have raced on lot's of other people's boats in many types of racing.

I'll echo what a lot has been said already, but here are my views on the a variety of issues that have been discussed.

*Racers are arrogant and think they are better than "cruisers."* - I don't think this is true at all. There are jerks on both sides. I seen "cruisers" sail right through a race, causing a disruption to several boats progress, and when a race boat says that there is race going on, the cruiser respond with they have rights or just ignore them. I have seen racers, who were so far back from the lead, sail on collision course with a cruising boat cross the course, and then demand rights because they are "racing".

*Racers think they own the water* - Yes they do, sort of, when they are racing. Racer's should own the water in the area of the race course. The problem I see is that "cruisers" sometimes do not respect the area and sail right through the heat of the race, when the could easily alter course and avoid the "scrum". I am not saying that one can't sail across a course, just don't do it during a time when you have the potential to affect the boats and therefor the race.

*Racers don't practice safe seamanship* I have not seen this at all.

Racing has definitely made me a better sailor. Improve sail trim, wind line/shifts reading, helm balancing, even rules of the road. The other thing that that it has taught the subtleties of boat maneuvering using weight shifting to balance the helm and help turn the boat on smaller boats.

As far as skippers, just like teachers, some are very good, and some are complete bafoons. I had the privileged of sailing on a J24 Frostbite series this winter with skipper who won the worlds a few years back. What a great learning experience. While we had some good sailors on board, but we also had some very novice ones in our group of 7. We placed 1 or 2 in over half the races that did and got better as the season went on. Mentally I questioned why we did things when we did or why we did things during a race, but seeing the review tapes and talking to the skipper after the race, the reason made complete sense. And when you often win by 30 seconds over the 2nd place boat during a 20 minute race, the leanings really sink in.


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## sea_hunter (Jul 26, 2000)

Because most of the real sailors have left for other forums.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

sea_hunter said:


> Because most of the real sailors have left for other forums.


Now THAT'S funny.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

I get mad when That torpedo keel thing breaks off and boats capsize and sailors die. That famous guy a few years back and that Gulf of Mexico instance when the one guy died and the three teenagers drifted around with their captain and one life vest. I saw that on "we should be dead" or whatever.I know pushing the limits of weight and design Have made boats faster but to what end. My boat, a 1965 soverel 28 was spawn from that desire, but it's still heavy and sea worthy. I think safety first, and some of these new designs are past the limit of whats reasonable.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

pdqaltair said:


> Just to stir the pot Iit seems like that sort of thread). FWIW, I have raced in the past.
> 
> * Racing is dull. By that I mean it is one-dimensional. Go fast. Yawn. I outgrew that very quickly. *And there is NOTHING as dull as a race when the wind dies. You are forced to concentrate on... nothing.*
> _* "One year of racing will teach you more about sailing than..." What complete rubish. Perhaps, compared to a cruiser that only drifts, but not at all compared to a fast cruiser that sails in all conditions, generally short handed. And you will learn less of the rest of seamanship._
> ...


*Bold* part - absolutely the truth.

Red part - only true if you're talking about inshore match racing. Offshore racing - it's absolutely true that "one year of racing will teach you more than...."


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## jimjazzdad (Jul 15, 2008)

I raced competitively when I was younger (better make that YOUNG - I'm OLD now). I started in dinghies, progressed to club racing, and ended up competing at a national level. For the past 20 years, I have been cruising. I no longer have any interest in racing my boats, but I still think sailboat racing is the king of sports. I follow races like the Vendee Globe (occaisionally AC) and I was thrilled to hear that my next-door neighbor's daughter made the Canadian Olympic Sailing Team; I will definitely be following Laser Radials in the UK this summer. All this to say that, with age, I have become more of a spectator than a participant with regard to racing. I suspect that the SailNet demographic would reflect my own personal shift. So, nothing against racing, but...I think I'll take a nap now


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## Irunbird (Aug 10, 2008)

I can understand the tension between the two groups. I have this feeling that sailing is something you can never really know all there is to know about it, and it seems to be constantly evolving with new technology (not just in the racing arena, but with all the electronic doo-dads that thrill all the cruisers as well). I also think anytime there is a chance to be different, there is likely going to be resentment from one group about the other. My wife and I made a huge step moving from Arizona to South Carolina primarily for the sailing. We've now owned three boats, and I just sold our J24 after racing it regularly in the beer can races and Raceweek, getting my butt kicked on a fairly regular basis- but I'm learning. Last year, one guy tagged me at the start line on the motor mount (which bent the frame) and continued screaming at me to "head up"- I was so stunned, I wanted to just jump onto his boat and rip his throat out, but we were 10 seconds from the start horn.. I can see why people aren't into the rabid one-design racing thing. We're moving into the phrf fleet with an Olson 30, so I think the crazy starts will hopefully be a thing of the past, and I really want to do more coastal/offshore racing and cruising with my wife and a few good friends- without all the yelling and screaming. For my wife and I, racing is and has been one of the best ways we've managed to learn a ton of stuff that would have taken us ages if we'd just bought a big cruiser and moved aboard. We still have a long way to go. With the Olson, I've discovered that you CAN use a circular saw to cut holes in your boat, then how to re-core part of the deck-- thanks to you guys. Still, I think we're more cruisers at heart, and I can't wait to leave this crazy town and do some travelling!


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## BentSailor (Nov 10, 2010)

I decided to read the entire thread because, to be frank, I haven't noticed any real animosity on SN in regards to racing. Not many threads on it, but the ones there are aren't shut-down, trolled, or otherwise encouraged to an early ignominious end. Having read through six pages, I've yet to see any examples - just some claims about what some racers think of cruisers & vice versa.

With that in mind, I'm not a big racer. I didn't get into sailing based on the thought of screaming through the water, spray in my face, and people yelling at me about their right of way (rightly or wrongly). I honestly don't get much enjoyment out of it either. That said, I don't complain about it, don't discourage discussion on it, nor mock those that do. I can understand, from a distance, the appeal of racing - it's just not something that appeals to me.

With that said, I race weekends in a dinghy, have a beach-cat for taking my sons out for fast sailing, and was twilight racing with some good friends every Friday night before the end of our sailing season here. My second eldest boy loves racing and I find that I DO learn stuff from the activity I otherwise won't learn without paid lessons. A boat, badly trimmed, will still get you somewhere but those folks that like to win races show me how to make me get there faster. Given I want to cruise as much for the destination as for the sailing - this is good stuff to learn.

Of course, I _could_ blame the fuzzball for completely destroying my desire to race but I honestly wasn't a big fan even before that night 



smackdaddy said:


>


What grabs my attention, smack, is the fact you keep an image of young emo boys around for photoshopping


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

Hey now, that's a touchy subject.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

BentSailor said:


> Of course, I _could_ blame the fuzzball ...but I honestly wasn't a big fan even before that night











Racing: It's different in Oz.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

BentSailor said:


> What grabs my attention, smack, is the fact you keep an image of young emo boys around for photoshopping











Woah, woah, woah....THAT'S A DUDE?


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

I thought it was you.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Capt.aaron said:


> I thought it was you.


Well played sir.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

indeed


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

smackdaddy said:


> Woah, woah, woah....THAT'S A DUDE?


oh crikey .... now we are onto Ontarian boys .... good ... oh !

ahem ....

Hey I truly believe that the best technical sailors I have known through my life have been ex racers. They have the knowledge but have learnt to slow down just a tadge.

Word to the wise .... if you invite them on board for a sail make sure your halyards are in good nick ....

I guess for me if I was to race I would want to be competitive not just a sludge bucket cruiser arriving into Hobart sometime in January. Trouble is that decent racers these days don't even have a door on the freaking head, if indeed they even have a freaking head. And the noise, oh dear lord save me from the noise. All that groaning and creaking from stressed out carbon fibre I guess.

Anywho ... race on ....

ps - ref the strength of racing boats .... I really believe that if you take away the very top echelon where in any sport the equipment is going to be on the very cutting edge most racing boats are pretty damn reliable and in many cases as reliable as your average cruiser. I might point out that very very few boats have ever sunk during the Sydney - Hobart and even those left incapacitated have in the main been able to return to port under their own steam. Meanwhile two examples of boats that went down during the race (Koomooloo and Winston Churchill) both would today be considered heavily built cruisers.


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## Geoff54 (Oct 30, 2011)

*Re: Racing has made me a better sailor*



DrB said:


> *Racers are arrogant and think they are better than "cruisers."* - I don't think this is true at all. There are jerks on both sides. I seen "cruisers" sail right through a race, causing a disruption to several boats progress, and when a race boat says that there is race going on, the cruiser respond with they have rights or just ignore them. I have seen racers, who were so far back from the lead, sail on collision course with a cruising boat cross the course, and then demand rights because they are "racing".
> 
> *Racers think they own the water* - Yes they do, sort of, when they are racing. Racer's should own the water in the area of the race course. The problem I see is that "cruisers" sometimes do not respect the area and sail right through the heat of the race, when the could easily alter course and avoid the "scrum". , just don't do it during a time when you have the potential to affect the boats and therefor the race.


It's only a course to you. 
NO THEY DON'T (yes I'm shouting) - Racers do not own the water. 
"I am not saying that one can't sail across a course" - how magnanimous of you.

COLREGS! - plain and simple.

I have never had a confrontation with someone racing but the couple of incidents I have seen did not reflect well on the racer. I really didn't have any angst against racers until I read this thread but it's starting to build.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

*Re: Racing has made me a better sailor*



Geoff54 said:


> It's only a course to you.
> NO THEY DON'T (yes I'm shouting) - Racers do not own the water.
> "I am not saying that one can't sail across a course" - how magnanimous of you.
> 
> ...


This is another misunderstanding...at least in terms of an inshore match race. From everything I've read, COLREGS don't apply to a race course. A race course is "closed" and is governed by the rules of the race (that's why you have to get permits). This is why in many bigger match races, you have CG (or some authority) monitoring the course and keeping other boaters out of it. If not that, then you have committee boats and big floaty things that mark the course.

If you as a cruiser happen to miss all this, sail onto a closed course and start screaming COLREGS...you've messed up.

Again, I'm a new racer so I may have missed some nuance here. But that's the gist.

It's not "plain and simple". That's the problem.


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## Geoff54 (Oct 30, 2011)

*Re: Racing has made me a better sailor*



smackdaddy said:


> This is another misunderstanding...at least in terms of an inshore match race. From everything I've read, COLREGS don't apply to a race course. A race course is "closed" and is governed by the rules of the race (that's why you have to get permits). This is why in many bigger match races, you have CG (or some authority) monitoring the course and keeping other boaters out of it. If not that, then you have committee boats and big floaty things that mark the course.
> 
> If you as a cruiser happen to miss all this, sail onto a closed course and start screaming COLREGS...you've messed up.
> 
> ...


Don't get me wrong, I keep clear of races anyway because I have no desire to tangle with anyone. Also, some inshore races are in areas covered by Inland Rules.

However, the ASA states "racing sailboats have no special privileges" and, with a very few exception, that is true elsewhere also.

I suspect that the CG is just interested in preventing conflicts.

I am interested in the legal position though.


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## DrB (Mar 29, 2007)

*Re: Racing has made me a better sailor*



Geoff54 said:


> It's only a course to you.
> NO THEY DON'T (yes I'm shouting) - Racers do not own the water.
> "I am not saying that one can't sail across a course" - how magnanimous of you.
> 
> ...


Next time the police/town closes a street for a running race, bike race, charity walk, please ignore them, drive right onto the closed road and then claim they can't close the street as you pay taxes and have a right to the street.

Or you could set-up a picnic right in the middle of the outfield of a public softball field during a game and claim it's a public park and you have just as much right to be there as the teams playing.

The point I was trying to make, and I'll try to make it easy for you to understand, is that while no one "owns" the ocean, public lake, bay, river, etc. the area in the water that is being used is as the race course is "closed" to general boating in the area where the race is actually happening. It is common courtesy for other boaters to avoid where the racing boats are actually racing and not affect their course. Again, not saying that you can't sail on the course, just avoid where the boats are actually racing. Legally, yes race boats have no special privileges regarding ASA stuff, but if you sail onto a course and cause an incident, you may be found liable, whether your right or not.


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## Geoff54 (Oct 30, 2011)

*Re: Racing has made me a better sailor*



DrB said:


> Next time the police/town closes a street for a running race, bike race, charity walk, please ignore them, drive right onto the closed road and then claim they can't close the street as you pay taxes and have a right to the street.
> 
> Or you could set-up a picnic right in the middle of the outfield of a public softball field during a game and claim it's a public park and you have just as much right to be there as the teams playing.
> 
> The point I was trying to make, and I'll try to make it easy for you to understand, is that while no one "owns" the ocean, public lake, bay, river, etc. the area in the water that is being used is as the race course is "closed" to general boating in the area where the race is actually happening. It is common courtesy for other boaters to avoid where the racing boats are actually racing and not affect their course. Again, not saying that you can't sail on the course, just avoid where the boats are actually racing.


It' very easy to understand - you are displaying the arrogance that you claim doesn't exist. Where did you get that sense of entitlement and demeaning attitude?


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## BentSailor (Nov 10, 2010)

*Re: Racing has made me a better sailor*



smackdaddy said:


> This is another misunderstanding...at least in terms of an inshore match race. From everything I've read, COLREGS don't apply to a race course. A race course is "closed" and is governed by the rules of the race (that's why you have to get permits). This is why in many bigger match races, you have CG (or some authority) monitoring the course and keeping other boaters out of it. If not that, then you have committee boats and big floaty things that mark the course.


Is this true? I don't even own a copy of the Blue Book, so I'm certainly not an expert on the matter. That said, my experience is primarily (~95%) inshore and a fair chunk of it has been racing. It has not been my experience that the course is off-limits to other boats, nor have I ever heard others claim it to be the case. People tend to avoid a course they know is there, but mainly out of courtesy. Hell, we had marine aircraft touch & go training on the course at a recent race which was surreal but not something the race committee complained about.

I'm not saying it isn't the case, but if it is - there sure is alot of races, racers, race committees & other folk on the water around here that don't abide by the rules.


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

*Re: Racing has made me a better sailor*



BentSailor said:


> Is this true? I don't even own a copy of the Blue Book, so I'm certainly not an expert on the matter. That said, my experience is primarily (~95%) inshore and a fair chunk of it has been racing. It has not been my experience that the course is off-limits to other boats, nor have I ever heard others claim it to be the case. People tend to avoid a course they know is there, but mainly out of courtesy. Hell, we had marine aircraft touch & go training on the course at a recent race which was surreal but not something the race committee complained about.


No - it's not true, Bent, here or anywhere else the ISAF regulations apply.

Smack is probably referring to some big-name racing event over there which, outside of a certain little yacht race down Sydney harbour on December 26th which would be a similar case, we simply don't get to witness..


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## Geoff54 (Oct 30, 2011)

*Re: Racing has made me a better sailor*



DrB said:


> Legally, yes race boats have no special privileges regarding ASA stuff, but if you sail onto a course and cause an incident, you may be found liable, whether your right or not.


OOOps, editing in a little back peddling I see.


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## BentSailor (Nov 10, 2010)

Thought so, thanks H18 

I understand huge races will get special dispensation to close off areas of the water by the government, but I'd never seen even a large regatta get exclusivity of an area on Lake Macquarie. We give it because it's polite and we'd like the same in return, but when frustrated by someone not racing not even the rules lawyers here have claimed a right to the water whilst I've been around.


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

*Re: Racing has made me a better sailor*

Yep. The only race over here that I know of that gets special dispensation is the Sydney-Hobart start - and that's it. ...and that's only because, in the event of an impending collision, the harbour isn't big enough to avoid it. AFAIK, no other race event in Australia has that problem.



DrB said:


> Legally, yes race boats have no special privileges regarding ASA stuff, but if you sail onto a course and cause an incident, you may be found liable, whether your right or not.


FWIW, generally, that isn't true either. Here's a rather sad (very sad, actually) case in point:

Collision sinks yacht, injures woman - National - NZ Herald News


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## Geoff54 (Oct 30, 2011)

Cowes Week - Clearly the tanker was the stand on vessel and the cruiser in the wrong but the point is that the Commercial shipping, small craft and racers are all sharing the same water and standard rules apply. Maybe some places in the U.S. that isn't the case??? I'm curious.


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## DrB (Mar 29, 2007)

*Re: Racing has made me a better sailor*



Hartley18 said:


> Yep. The only race over here that I know of that gets special dispensation is the Sydney-Hobart start - and that's it. ...and that's only because, in the event of an impending collision, the harbour isn't big enough to avoid it. AFAIK, no other race event in Australia has that problem.
> 
> FWIW, generally, that isn't true either. Here's a rather sad (very sad, actually) case in point:
> 
> Collision sinks yacht, injures woman - National - NZ Herald News


I read the story. The sailboat, Amadeus was under power returning from a (the) race, not active participating in the race. The 32 ft boat that was sunk was appeared to be in the race and racing from the article. If that was the case, without additional info suggests that the sailboat, under power and on the course is at fault.

Again, that is how I read it.


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## Geoff54 (Oct 30, 2011)

*Re: Racing has made me a better sailor*



DrB said:


> I read the story. The sailboat, Amadeus was under power returning from a (the) race, not active participating in the race. The 32 ft boat that was sunk was appeared to be in the race and racing from the article. If that was the case, without additional info suggests that the sailboat, under power and on the course is at fault.
> 
> Again, that is how I read it.


That is the way it sounds, except "on the course" is irrelevant.

Also, newspaper stories frequently have errors and omissions.


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

*Re: Racing has made me a better sailor*



Geoff54 said:


> Also, newspaper stories frequently have errors and omissions.


Except that, in this case, how DrB read it is exactly what happened: Big expensive cruising yacht almost completely destroys said racing yacht, was very clearly in the wrong and receives a $200 fine and a slap on the wrist from the authorities.. Case closed.

The fact that there was a race on at the time and Big Plastic wasn't in it, was, and is, deemed irrelevant.


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

Geoff54 said:


> Cowes Week - Clearly the tanker was the stand on vessel and the cruiser in the wrong but the point is that the Commercial shipping, small craft and racers are all sharing the same water and standard rules apply. Maybe some places in the U.S. that isn't the case??? I'm curious.


Locally, every race has to be USCG permitted. There's a yearly meeting to sort out issues, propose changes, etc... no races are just set up and 'run'. This would be highly frowned apon and shut down quickly. In Puget Sound/Salish Sea, etc... there is not a race run that a race participant has ROW over commercial traffic in shipping lanes. Five toots will generally get you tossed from a race, and again, the CG and VTS are all monitoring this stuff. What happened in your vid is a clear and simple case of the pooch being screwed and the pups sold. I can also pull up vids of a cruiser being run over by a ferry in Boston( I think it was) two or three years ago, the recent cruiser on the beach in HI, the cruiser playing bumper boats at an anchorage in the Caribbean, etc... so there's plenty of stupid to go around. If we're intent on finding the exceptions rather than the rules, neither side comes out looking any better than goldfish turd. The fish though is just fine. 

Honestly, I've never assumed that while racing I have any special privileges over any boat on the water. If a cruiser is in the way or going to be an issue, we try to cheerfully communicate our intensions and that it would be hugely appreciated if we can just pass. During salmon season there are often a bunch of boats trolling that we have to avoid. Sure, it's not ideal, but they have every right to be there. Usually there's no issue.

Last year a cruising sailboat did a fantastic lee bow on us completely unintentionally. They had right of way and were going to cross clear ahead. We might have had to duck just a bit and were waving them across, but I think they just panicked and tacked. I'm sure they thought we were asses. From our view we just figured they were confused about who had the right of way and tacked to avoid what they saw as an immanent collision. The problem is often one of perception. Crossing a few feet behind someone while racing is absolutely normal. Not so much so for folks who cruise exclusively. If we're racing and they're not, we'll still treat it as a normal crossing situation, its just that 'normal' means different things to different sailors.


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## DrB (Mar 29, 2007)

*Re: Racing has made me a better sailor*



Hartley18;890075
The fact that there was a race on at the time and Big Plastic wasn't in it said:


> Agree. Plastic Sailboat, under power, was/is at fault. The location of the incident (course, no course) is irrelevant.


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## BentSailor (Nov 10, 2010)

I think the point here is in regards to who is found liable. I don't think there is much debate about who is at fault, but being liable for damages (or in this case, replacement of boat & medical expenses) is a different beast altogether and is generally a matter of tort.

From the sounds of things, the Antaeus would be the boat at fault in this case regardless of racing conditions and, not only that, but liability in an accident has nothing to do with whether being on the course is legal but is based on "duty of care". 

Not trying to be a pain, but given what I've seen personally and what others are claiming (that matches that) - what is the basis for your claim that racers have claim to an area outside simple courtesy?


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## Geoff54 (Oct 30, 2011)

puddinlegs said:


> Locally, every race has to be USCG permitted. There's a yearly meeting to sort out issues, propose changes, etc... no races are just set up and 'run'. This would be highly frowned apon and shut down quickly. In Puget Sound/Salish Sea, etc... there is not a race run that a race participant has ROW over commercial traffic in shipping lanes. Five toots will generally get you tossed from a race, and again, the CG and VTS are all monitoring this stuff. What happened in your vid is a clear and simple case of the pooch being screwed and the pups sold. I can also pull up vids of a cruiser being run over by a ferry in Boston( I think it was) two or three years ago, the recent cruiser on the beach in HI, the cruiser playing bumper boats at an anchorage in the Caribbean, etc... so there's plenty of stupid to go around. If we're intent on finding the exceptions rather than the rules, neither side comes out looking any better than goldfish turd. The fish though is just fine.
> 
> Honestly, I've never assumed that while racing I have any special privileges over any boat on the water. If a cruiser is in the way or going to be an issue, we try to cheerfully communicate our intensions and that it would be hugely appreciated if we can just pass. During salmon season there are often a bunch of boats trolling that we have to avoid. Sure, it's not ideal, but they have every right to be there. Usually there's no issue.
> 
> Last year a cruising sailboat did a fantastic lee bow on us completely unintentionally. They had right of way and were going to cross clear ahead. We might have had to duck just a bit and were waving them across, but I think they just panicked and tacked. I'm sure they thought we were asses. From our view we just figured they were confused about who had the right of way and tacked to avoid what they saw as an immanent collision. The problem is often one of perception. Crossing a few feet behind someone while racing is absolutely normal. Not so much so for folks who cruise exclusively. If we're racing and they're not, we'll still treat it as a normal crossing situation, its just that 'normal' means different things to different sailors.


So, to be clear, while a USCG permit is required, this doesn't confer any special privilege - right? Standard COLREGS or Inland Rules apply. Just want to be sure of this as this is contrary to what has been stated elsewhere in this thread. As I said, I keep clear of races and have no desire to tangle with anyone but I like to be sure that my understanding of my rights and responsibilities is correct.

The point about the video was not to point out the error but that everyone was sharing the water and normal rules applied. Just after the collision the racers come through passing on both sides of the tanker. You lost me with the pooch and the goldfish turds though. 

If more people shared your attitude I think there would be a lot less animosity.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

Wow! This thread has brought everyone out of the woodwork!

I have only started posting here fairly recently, but I haven't picked up any real animosity towards racers, except in this thread. Perhaps there is a history that I was not around for?

What I have noticed, and is highlighted by some posters on this thread, is a profound ignorance of racing and racers. That is hardly surprising given that this is a cruising site.

The fact is, if you want information about racing, this is not the place to come. I came here because it provides information that helps to fill the gaps in my knowledge that comes from being a long time racer and only a relatively recent cruiser. I absolutely believe that my racing background has made me a better sailor than the average cruiser when it comes to boat handling, rigging and sail trim. That's not to say that I don't have a huge gap in my knowledge of the greater aspects of seamanship. In that regard there are plenty of cruisers who could teach me a thing or three!

Having said that, I don't care how good a sailor you think you are, if you see a large number of boats milling around, boats lined up sailing in the same general direction, signal flags flying from an anchored boat, and you choose to sail right through the melee because you think it is your right, then you are a complete a$$! And we see it all the time! You are right, we don't own that piece of water, but we happen to be using it at the moment! If you weren't aware that we were using it then you clearly are not paying due care and attention as is your responsibility as a skipper. I'm not sure which is worse, the arrogance or the ignorance! Either way you should not be surprised if you provoke a hostile reaction from some of the boats on the water as you barge through the course. You may not give a rats ass about racing, but everyone else there clearly does! You wouldn't stroll across a soccer field during a game would you? No, you would go around! Obviously a race course can encompass a large body of water, and we don't expect everyone to stay away from it, but there are certain areas, the start and finish lines, and the mark roundings mainly, where the boats converge. They are often sailing in close quarters and may be very powered up. A wayward cruiser in those areas can be very hazardous indeed!


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

SchockT said:


> Having said that, I don't care how good a sailor you think you are, if you see a large number of boats milling around, boats lined up sailing in the same general direction, signal flags flying from an anchored boat, and you choose to sail right through the melee because you think it is your right, then you are a complete a$$! And we see it all the time! You are right, we don't own that piece of water, but we happen to be using it at the moment! If you weren't aware that we were using it then you clearly are not paying due care and attention as is your responsibility as a skipper. I'm not sure which is worse, the arrogance or the ignorance! Either way you should not be surprised if you provoke a hostile reaction from some of the boats on the water as you barge through the course. You may not give a rats ass about racing, but everyone else there clearly does! You wouldn't stroll across a soccer field during a game would you? No, you would go around!


There is definitely something to be said about the "heat of the starting gun". If someone had the nerve to sail across the start of some of our Twilight Races they'd be cut into little pieces.. (think several sharp bows hitting them broadside on at the same time).

Who's at fault? The racing yachts, obviously. "Insurance will cover it", they claim. Regardless, you won't catch me out there.. It's a little too rough for me.


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## Geoff54 (Oct 30, 2011)

SchockT said:


> Wow! This thread has brought everyone out of the woodwork!
> 
> I have only started posting here fairly recently, but I haven't picked up any real animosity towards racers, except in this thread. Perhaps there is a history that I was not around for?
> 
> ...


I didn't and don't have any animosity towards racers in general and I have never had a problem on the water, however from reading this thread, SOME racers seem to think that they have special entitlement. Why is the fact that you are racing any more important than the fact that I am out sailing? Or that guy windsurfing. Or that guy in his kayak.

And the last time I looked, soccer games, along with the local park and street closures previously mentioned, are not subject to international agreement administered by a U.N. agency with a clearly defined set of rules that apply to everyone.

I have no intention of barging into your race but I don't see why you should expect that no one will. I don't know which is worse, the arrogance or the ignorance!


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

Geoff54 said:


> I have no intention of barging into your race but I don't see why you should expect that no one will. I don't know which is worse, the arrogance or the ignorance!


:laugher :laugher 

I still vividly remember being at the start of a Sydney-Hobart race on a certain 66-foot pocket-maxi 20-something years ago as we headed for the line. We were quite literally shoving "little" boats (other competitors) both port AND starboard as the skipper yelled "coming through!". They moved the Big Boys to a separate start line not long after. 

My point: Stuff happens... and sometimes there isn't much you can do about it.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

Racers rarely bother me at sea, it's on the dock, in the store, at my morning coffee house, in trafic, at the bar, when they act like a$$'s in the resturaunt my wife works, in the rigging shop I worked at, in the parking lot with their exclusive big white tent, at the sushi resturaunt I frequent, and when they walk by my boat by the dozens in the morning arguing about yesterday's race......key West race week, gotta love it. Other than that they are a lovely bunch of lads

P.S. about the exclusive white tent, Why can't us lowly locals go watch the awards ceromony? When the Americas cup was in New Zeland, the awards ceromony was a public afair, when it was in the states it was private. It's like polo. It reminds me of driving Miss Daisy when she would'nt let Morgan Freeman come inside and hear Martin Luther speak. "Thanks for giving us your town, rigging my boat in a hurry and serving us our food etc. but sorry, the tent is just for racers, we really should'nt fraternize with the help.""


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Haven't noticed any animosity toward racing on this board. Against power boaters, yes, racers, no. Any friction may be due to the differences between cruising and racing but that's really comparing two entirely different motivations, one competitive, one not, one a group activity, one a group-avoidance activity. It's almost like comparing apples and kiwis. Racing one designs is how many kids get introduced to sailing. Most of the technology and innovation in sailing comes from racing. Watching a well trained crew on a SOTA boat is awesome. 

I do have issues with planners who set courses across well used channels but that has nothing to do with racing in general, just brainless individuals. When I see a group of little prams with 12 year olds darting across the mouth of Newport harbor to hit the next mark, for instance, with 60' yachts trying to avoid them it makes me scratch my head about the ignoramus who put the kids in that kind of danger!


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## Allen-deckard (Jul 26, 2011)

K i jeep reading the interchange of the words angst anamosity and arrogance.
God forbid i am about as far from a walking dictonary as a person can get just ask my wife im always yelling into themother room how to spell a word hehe
But i commented on my perception of the authors term angst toward racing. Angst is a fear of the race.
Anamosity is anger toward the race
Arrogance is a feeling they are better than the racers.
I looked up the words  just kidding

I dont think for a min that im better than racers but then again i dont think im better than anyone atleast till they screw up

I anger toward the racers? Well unless im trying to get to my dock and am told no you have to wait till the race is over in a couole hours or something maybe. Maybe as someone said if im trying to sleep and the racers are arguing about the race, that wouldnt help. Being told that apparently i suck at sailing because i dont have any interest in saili g really is an offensive move and honestly will turn a nice convo into a hostile convo and that applies to pretty much anything outside sailing as well.

Again the origional question was angst (fear) of racing here and that quickly morphed into meaning anger. I dont want to do lots of things in life rarely if ever because of fear but most always because of no interest or money.


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## ScottUK (Aug 16, 2009)

A few comments about some of the issues touched on her.

In my opinion if you are not a professional racer then racing on OPBs is a priviledge not a right. 

Racing and cruising are both sailing but have their own transferable skill sets.

In regard to cruising through a ongoing race. I had the priviladge to be on a boat marshalling the VOR in Auckland recently. We would ask boats nearing the top mark to keep clear of the race course and were mostly met with understanding but quite a few people were not pleased. On the last day we knew from the wind direction that the race boats would be needing more room as they left for the southen ocean and asked boats to re anchor further back though again some people were not happy. When we got one area clear then other boats would come in and anchor in the spots just vacated so it was a losing cause. In the end when the race boats came through on the course we had anticipated I just reved up the engine and moved the boat to a spot far away and watched as they picked their way through all the boats we had tried to move. I guess what I am trying to relate with this story is that we are all afforded freedom but we should also recognize and respect others people's freedom too. I just don't think some people in our society understand that.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

SchockT said:


> Wow! This thread has brought everyone out of the woodwork!
> 
> <snip>


My work here is done.

My final thoughts on this subject:

1. I race. I race my own boat, with my own crew, and I race on OPB's.
As a racer, I completely disagree with people in this thread who have said that race courses are "closed", and that racers own the water of the race course. Navigable waters are open to the public, and it's the racers' obligation to adhere to the COLREGS the same as everyone else. "Interference" from obstacles and other vessels is simply part of the racing challenge. Understand this: No one owes racers _anything_ other than what's been clearly laid out in existing law. However, every time I race, I do think to myself "I sure wish that guy who cut in front of me, had been a little more courteous".

2. I didnt' start this thread because of racing "apathy". If it was mere apathy, I wouldn't have said anything. Over 3 years, I have observed plain and direct comments denigrating racers, their lack of good judgement, and their seamanship and their attitude.

Just because you haven't noticed it, because you've been too busy reading other threads about AIS and rebuilding your head, doesn't mean the bias doesn't exist.

3. Finally, I'm willing to concede that although there is a bias against racing here, I have overstated the intensity and how widespread it is.

Carry on.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

Racers are all right, They are just people who like to sail fast. Nothing wrong with that. I like looking out at the race course when all the kites are flying, it's beautiful. They are often on my route to the reef when I drive the dive boat. I go close enough to have a look but stay out of the way. They are dangerous in groups of more than 20 when in town around 9:00 at night though, watch out for that Motely Crew!


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Geoff54 said:


> So, to be clear, while a USCG permit is required, this doesn't confer any special privilege - right? Standard COLREGS or Inland Rules apply. Just want to be sure of this as this is contrary to what has been stated elsewhere in this thread. As I said, I keep clear of races and have no desire to tangle with anyone but I like to be sure that my understanding of my rights and responsibilities is correct.
> 
> The point about the video was not to point out the error but that everyone was sharing the water and normal rules applied. Just after the collision the racers come through passing on both sides of the tanker. You lost me with the pooch and the goldfish turds though.
> 
> If more people shared your attitude I think there would be a lot less animosity.


Geoff, my statement above about COLREGS "not applying" is not precisely right. It's more complicated than that - especially when talking about a non-racing boat coming onto a course.

After all, virtually all rules of a race are built on the COLREGS - you avoid collisions. A better way to say it is that _on a race course_, the RRS/IYR take precedence over the COLREGS - at least as far as the US case law I know of states.

From the _Juno SRL v. S/V Endeavour_ case:



> On October 3, 1992, the sailing yachts Charles Jourdan and Endeavour collided while racing in the La Nioulargue Regatta off the southern coast of France. 1 The Charles Jourdan filed a protest against the Endeavour under the International Yacht Racing Rules (IYR Rules) and the Regatta's Sailing Instructions. 2 In accordance with the yacht racing rules, an International Jury convened and found the Endeavour entirely at fault for having violated the IYR Rules. 3 Approximately one year later in Maine, the owners of the Charles Jourdan arrested the Endeavour and filed suit in federal district court seeking as damages the cost of repair to the Charles Jourdan and lost charter income. 4 In a bench trial, the district court ignored the finding of the International Jury and instead applied the International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea (COLREGS). 5 It found the Charles Jourdan sixty-percent at fault and the Endeavour forty-percent at fault. 6 The United States Court of Appeals for the First Circuit reviewed the case de novo, 7 reversing the district court's allocation of fault. 8 Applying the IYR Rules, the court reinstated the finding of the International Jury that Endeavour was solely at fault for the collision. 9 The court of appeals held that the Charles Jourdan and the Endeavour were contractually bound to race by the IYR Rules, and therefore any issues of fault for collisions must be resolved according to those rules. 10 Juno SRL v. S/V Endeavour, 58 ...


Now, I'll say that I'm already way in over my head on all the legalities of this issue. But as you can see, it's more complicated than your assumption. When you, as a "cruiser", enter a race course because "it is your right", you're entering an area that is governed by a set of rules you probably know nothing about. Is that prudent seamanship?

The bottom line is you should stay off a race course if you're not racing (just as you should stay out of a busy shipping lane if you're under sail). This way you avoid collisions and cursing. And that's what the COLREGS are all about, right?


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

Geoff54 said:


> I didn't and don't have any animosity towards racers in general and I have never had a problem on the water, however from reading this thread, SOME racers seem to think that they have special entitlement. Why is the fact that you are racing any more important than the fact that I am out sailing? Or that guy windsurfing. Or that guy in his kayak.
> 
> And the last time I looked, soccer games, along with the local park and street closures previously mentioned, are not subject to international agreement administered by a U.N. agency with a clearly defined set of rules that apply to everyone.
> 
> I have no intention of barging into your race but I don't see why you should expect that no one will. I don't know which is worse, the arrogance or the ignorance!


I think some folks just aren't well informed. Incidentally, we have kayaks paddling through things on a fairly frequent basis. It! 's more a matter of a new kayaker being in the wrong place at the wrong time, but there's no swearing, etc... The usual conversation on the boat is, "do you have the kayak at 11 o'clock about 200 yards out?" They're generally happy to find less crowded water and we're happy to avoid them. Again, I don't think I expect anything. Like any activity, there are a handful who feel it's their 'right' to be in a particular place and 'own' it while they're on task, and it doesn't have much to do with which subset of boating they're involved in. Both you and I avoid crossing into constricted points of a race (start/finish, marks) which in my mind is simple due diligence to keep a cruising crew and boat out of unnecessarily stressful and potentially dangerous situations.


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

Capt.aaron said:


> Racers rarely bother me at sea, it's on the dock, in the store, at my morning coffee house, in trafic, at the bar, when they act like a$$'s in the resturaunt my wife works, in the rigging shop I worked at, in the parking lot with their exclusive big white tent, at the sushi resturaunt I frequent, and when they walk by my boat by the dozens in the morning arguing about yesterday's race......key West race week, gotta love it. Other than that they are a lovely bunch of lads
> 
> P.S. about the exclusive white tent, Why can't us lowly locals go watch the awards ceromony? When the Americas cup was in New Zeland, the awards ceromony was a public afair, when it was in the states it was private. It's like polo. It reminds me of driving Miss Daisy when she would'nt let Morgan Freeman come inside and hear Martin Luther speak. "Thanks for giving us your town, rigging my boat in a hurry and serving us our food etc. but sorry, the tent is just for racers, we really should'nt fraternize with the help.""


The tent thing.. It's unfortunately a ticketed entrance affair. Drives me nuts too. I think there are probably both financial and possibly liability issues. The events our club runs would let you into the party, but you buy a ticket for the food. Beer's free... It's one of our trademarks. 

Yeah, I cringe when I see a group of racers out on the town and being idiots. The younger guys and gals, I get it, but the older folks know better. The 'boaters behaving badly' part of both racing and cruising really can be a problem regarding how sailing is seen as a whole. IMHO, owning or sailing a boat doesn't entitle one to get their drunk on and be an ass in public.


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

Geoff54 said:


> If more people shared your attitude I think there would be a lot less animosity.


I don't think my attitude is unique at all. It only takes one 'bad' boat to lead everyone to believe that the aboration is the norm... The goldfish thing..


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Don't even get me started on kayaking obliviots.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

BubbleheadMd said:


> My work here is done.
> 
> My final thoughts on this subject:
> 
> ...


Actually, this very thread is exactly why I love Sailnet. Cruisers and racers (_sailors_) are having this discussion. And it's been a good one. We're all learning something. You don't get much of that kind of cross-pollination on CF or SA.

So well-done dude.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

td? " most racing boats are pretty damn reliable " And they are all "built to a price". In 88 or 89 I had the pleasure while in NYC to visit one of the Kizi challengers from the last America's Cup race and I asked "Did you sail her over on her own bottom?" The crew guffawed loudly and said no, mate, she'd snap in two if she was caught out in any real weather, these boats were designed for an anticipated wind range on the course, and that was it. Every ounce more meant they'd been top heavy to win. So, well built, yes. But just built well enough to make it through the course--and not a dime more.

Puddin-
"Locally, every race has to be USCG permitted." That's the choice of your race organizers. The USCG has some publications (I last saw it in a "volume 1" of the LNTM) that make it clear they hav the authority to issue a marine EVENT permit, when said orginaized events cross certain criteria, like obstructing channels, endangering navigation, all sorts of "go away son, you're playing in traffic" situations.
Technically? No, no RACE has to be USCG permitted, and the USCG has no authority over RACING by itself. It is only when the organizers cross over into "Marine Event" that impacts safety and/or waterway operations that the USCG can step up.
Which may be the reason why some starting lines are held "out there" instead of in harbors.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

As a much younger Merchant Marine, I have walked the third world warfs of the world and fist fought some of the toughest russian engineers on the sea. Then we go out for a beer together the next night and aplaud our mettle. it's what we did. I have b- slapped a few pompus south african yachty's at a local watering hole for running their mouth. It's what we did. I get out of the way of that racer crowd, they'll gang up on ya. And that schooner crowd is rough bunch as well....and it's not the kayak it' the kayaker that get's in the way.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

I knew one clever skipper who would always buy a round for us _and _for whoever beat us in a race, when there was a second one coming in the morning. One round for us, and as many (shh! make em doubles) for the other boat. Sometimes their hangover was money very well spent. Now of course if we won that last race


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

> Originally Posted by Capt.aaron
> Racers rarely bother me at sea, it's on the dock, in the store, at my morning coffee house, in trafic, at the bar, when they act like a$$'s in the resturaunt my wife works, in the rigging shop I worked at, in the parking lot with their exclusive big white tent, at the sushi resturaunt I frequent, and when they walk by my boat by the dozens in the morning arguing about yesterday's race......key West race week, gotta love it. Other than that they are a lovely bunch of lads
> 
> P.S. about the exclusive white tent, Why can't us lowly locals go watch the awards ceromony? When the Americas cup was in New Zeland, the awards ceromony was a public afair, when it was in the states it was private. It's like polo. It reminds me of driving Miss Daisy when she would'nt let Morgan Freeman come inside and hear Martin Luther speak. "Thanks for giving us your town, rigging my boat in a hurry and serving us our food etc. but sorry, the tent is just for racers, we really should'nt fraternize with the help.""


I think you need to get out more. KWRW is an animal all it's own. And the ticketed tent party is just another way the organizers are keeping out the 'common' man. Restricting the entries to big/fast boats, upping the price of everything, etc. ensures them they get the top boats to show up for the event. Even if it's only a fraction of what they used to get. KWRW is slowly killing itself, and any revenue it generated from the "little" boats and their crews.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

Well, the day it lops off it's own head will be a day us locals rejoice and dance in the street's. Just mention that week to any service industry person in key west and they can recite a litany of transgressions those pompus punks have commited against them. The resturaunt owners will tell you the hassle they go through isn't worth the sales. We alway's forget it's coming and then we see the tent going up and we all go Noooooo!! The good thing about that tent is it keep's 'em all in one place. As a K.W. local, I can tell you I actually need to get out less.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

puddinlegs said:


> hmmm.. We sail with a group of friends. Our 'relationship' is based on this, not on a particular boat or boats. We just like to sail together. We're also kind of a training program for a larger boat that just isn't safe for someone with very little experience. We don't have budget for swag. The crew would rather have what money there spent on the boat.


Well we're doing different sorts of racing. Most of the boats I race on like everyone dressed the same - should I have to pay for that t-shirt? I like to sail with these folks also but it is their choice to race and the cost of a dozen shirts and hats doesn't even show up compared to sails.



Capt.aaron said:


> I think it's the culture of racing or the "racer" that has turned some cruisers off. I alway's plead with newby's not to enter the sailing world via the "race crowd', not the "act of" racing. For me, sailing is a way of life. for others it's sport.


I think you are doing your newbies a disservice. My cruising is much more fun as a direct result of the experience and skills garnered from racing.



night0wl said:


> No offense, but I think its highly unlikely that you're likley putting in nearly what the Captain/boat owner have put in when you factor in the fact that they *BOUGHT AND MAINTAIN A BOAT!


I have more money in my cruising boat than any of the boats I race on. I've sailed single-handed to 'away' races so the boat I'm racing on can raft up. I lug all the food and extra sails. I do a lot of cooking and advance food prep to keep weight off the race boat. I put a lot of time on boat prep and repair to be competitive. I work in the industry and have tools that aren't in everyone's tool kit. My "tool box" is an 8x14 dual-axle trailer.

I lost track of the post that said driving the boat is a privilege. For crying out loud. There is certainly trust involved and for new sailors it may be exciting but I'm a professional sailor. I get paid to sail boats. I come home and race on OPBs because it's fun and I enjoy it and it's good practice. When the owner asks me to take the wheel it is definitely an expression of trust but it for sure is not something I consider a privilege. When I get home from delivering a Swan 47 or a Hallberg Rassy 62 on an ocean passage do you think I'm really jonesing to drive a J/35 or a Morgan 36? I drive when the owner asks me to because we do have a relationship and I've made a commitment to the boat.

That's a good word. Crewing is a commitment. You're going to show up in good shape and do your best for the boat. Taking on crew is equally a commitment. You're going to keep the boat in good shape, look after your crew, and sail fast.

Regardless, other than this thread, I haven't seen any angst on Sailnet against racing or racers.


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

hellosailor said:


> "Locally, every race has to be USCG permitted." That's the choice of your race organizers. The USCG has some publications (I last saw it in a "volume 1" of the LNTM) that make it clear they hav the authority to issue a marine EVENT permit, when said orginaized events cross certain criteria, like obstructing channels, endangering navigation, all sorts of "go away son, you're playing in traffic" situations.
> Technically? No, no RACE has to be USCG permitted, and the USCG has no authority over RACING by itself. It is only when the organizers cross over into "Marine Event" that impacts safety and/or waterway operations that the USCG can step up.
> Which may be the reason why some starting lines are held "out there" instead of in harbors.


This is what I refer to as SN geographic myopia. What applies to YOUR locale might not be the same for OURS, and visa versa. I am talking ONLY about our area (puget sound). This is why I wrote specifically "locally". It's nearly impossible for us to run a race without crossing a commercial channel.

And yes, grand prix/ac race boats are built for very specific conditions. Don't see many GP cars or bikes being driven to races under their own power either. Horses for courses. Most of us are 'street legal' amateurs.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Smack, are you sure you know what a match race is? My personal experience is they are some of the most intense racing – Just you and the other boat, mano a mano at the start line, jousting for the best advantage. On the course it is cover, break cover, get out of phase, regain cover, repeat. Have you ever been in a tacking duel? We’ve done 18 tacks inside of 2.5 NM while dueling with another boat once. The winning boat doesn’t have to be the “fastest”. You just have to make sure your boat is between the other guy and the finish line.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

If you are new to sailing I think you are better off crewing on a delivery with a salty blue water captian than going out and getting yelled at by some preppy on mission to sail around a can faster than the other dandy. I try not to have an attitude torwards racers, then I start talking to them and it rears it's ugly head. Sailing is different things to different people, to a racer it's a bunch of ratio decimal points and fractions calculated by weight X speed and "now now now" heave to dead weight on the rail must have gloves and I want my own sandwich captain why do I have to share. For me it's a smooth way to get to paradise.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

GeorgeB said:


> Smack, are you sure you know what a match race is? My personal experience is they are some of the most intense racing - Just you and the other boat, mano a mano at the start line, jousting for the best advantage. On the course it is cover, break cover, get out of phase, regain cover, repeat. Have you ever been in a tacking duel? We've done 18 tacks inside of 2.5 NM while dueling with another boat once. The winning boat doesn't have to be the "fastest". You just have to make sure your boat is between the other guy and the finish line.


You mean this kind of crap?






Heh-heh.


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## Geoff54 (Oct 30, 2011)

smackdaddy said:


> Geoff, my statement above about COLREGS "not applying" is not precisely right. It's more complicated than that - especially when talking about a non-racing boat coming onto a course.
> 
> After all, virtually all rules of a race are built on the COLREGS - you avoid collisions. A better way to say it is that _on a race course_, the RRS/IYR take precedence over the COLREGS - at least as far as the US case law I know of states.
> 
> ...


My understanding is, and your example illustrates, that RRS/IYR rules apply to interactions between a boat that is racing and another boat that is taking part in the same race - it is a contract between those racing to abide by special rules for special circumstances, for example when two boats are trying to round the same mark at the same time. COLREGS applies to the interaction between the boat that is racing and others who are not participating in the race - they have no agreement with you and there is no expectation nor obligation for them to know what your rules are.

BTW, I believe shipping lanes are covered under COLREGS - I never worried because I had no desire to hang out there.


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## FormerAdministrator (Jan 10, 2000)

Hey - I love racing - Sailboats, anything in fact! - just not on public roads!


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Key West complaining about tourists?

Aw, comeon. Last time I looked there were maybe 2 days in the entire month when at least two cruise ships with 5000 of your new best friends weren't going to be in town. The town sold out long ago, the real locals lost out to the moneyed speculators (or became them) and Key West, like Route66 and Doris Day movies, should really just be considered a memory.

Do I come visit on the two days when everyone is closed because thank god there's no cruise ships? Or, on the 28 other days when 5000 of my new best friends will be surging through, like rising waters in a capitalist sewer line?

Decisions, decisions.


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## Geoff54 (Oct 30, 2011)

administrator said:


> Hey - I love racing - Sailboats, anything in fact! - just not on public roads!


That is, in effect, where you are racing and that is why the stand "rules of the road" apply.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Geoff54 said:


> My understanding is, and your example illustrates, that RRS/IYR rules apply to interactions between a boat that is racing and another boat that is taking part in the same race - it is a contract between those racing to abide by special rules for special circumstances, for example when two boats are trying to round the same mark at the same time. COLREGS applies to the interaction between the boat that is racing and others who are not participating in the race - they have no agreement with you and there is no expectation nor obligation for them to know what your rules are.


That's right. But, again, the issue is that even under the auspices of "prudent seamanship" a "cruiser" shouldn't enter an active, marked race course...an area where RRS rules (that he knows nothing about) are in play and superseding the COLREGS. That's just not smart or cool - regardless of the territorial rights one has on the water.

That's the crux of the frustration I think. And this is why the sports field analogies above make sense.

I think you could even make a legal argument (though maybe a bit stretchy) that the cruiser should give way to the racer under Part B Section II.18 (restricted maneuvering).


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## FormerAdministrator (Jan 10, 2000)

some time I will tell you folks about the two years that I qualified for and competed in the Daytona 200.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

administrator said:


> some time I will tell you folks about the two years that I qualified for and competed in the Daytona 200.


Okay - THIS I want to hear about!!


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

Capt. Aaron,

You must have had some really bad experience with racers to have so much hate. 

I can't say that I have ever been to KWRW, but it is something that I would love to do one day be cause it attracts some of the best yacht racers in the world. As a premiere event, you will no doubt encounter plenty of professional racers, and I am sure some of them have the attitude of arrogance and entitlement you describe. Be that as it may, it is not fair to characterize all racers as being like that. The vast majority of racers I know are just regular guys participating in the sport that is their passion. I have gone to major regattas like Key West, where the crew all pay their own way. They drive or sail hundreds of miles to get to the event. They spend countless hours rigging and prepping the boat, and they go out and race hard. When we get back to the dock it is party time. Sponsors ply us with free drinks and swag,( I am sorry you are hurt that you are not welcome at our party tent) and then we are unleashed on the town to have a good time and spend our money at the local restaurants. Sure, there is some drunken louts who act up, but is it any different from the likes of you? After all you seem pretty proud of your history of fighting with your fellow mariners, or assaulting a racer for being a loudmouth.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

NASCAR started by cops chasing bootleggers, sail boat racing started by getting out to fishing grounds and back to the market. That would be a race, sail out to the fish haven, catch and salt a bunch of COD. and get back to the dock first.... roots.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"an area where RRS rules (that he knows nothing about) are in play and superseding the COLREGS."
Jeez, smack. You gonna make me get out the little red book and see if that's right? Because last and every time I heard, COLREGS had priority over the racing rules, and the rules themselves said exactly that.

"PART 2 - WHEN BOATS MEET
_The rules of Part 2 apply between boats that _... _are racing, or have been racing_. ...

_The International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea or government
right-of-way rules apply between a boat sailing under these rules and a vessel
that is not, and they replace these rules if the sailing instructions so state_."

The Racing Rules only apply between racers. Some kids on a rubber boat paddle onto your course? That's your problem, _only __COLREGS _apply when that happens.

Apparently you're not a racer. Now you see why they flock elsewhere. Even the railmeat is expected to know this stuff.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

hellosailor said:


> "an area where RRS rules (that he knows nothing about) are in play and superseding the COLREGS."
> Jeez, smack. You gonna make me get out the little red book and see if that's right? Because last and every time I heard, COLREGS had priority over the racing rules, and the rules themselves said exactly that.
> 
> "PART 2 - WHEN BOATS MEET
> ...


See the court ruling *above*. Maybe there's new case law on the issue - but I haven't seen it. Again, the grey area here is the cruising sailor versus the racers, and the racers versus the racers..and how the two sets of rules/parties interact. I'm just saying it's debatable (which is probably why that case was reversed twice).


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

Ya, I'm torn. I didn't start out hating the k.w.r.w racers. It is something that grew over the years of witnessing how they behave. My wife is a waitress on the docks and she and her friends can go on and on about the ludicrous behavior. I take it on an individual basis. I have good friends that race that week and it's the one time a year I see them, so there are some fond memories. I worked as a bar tender in that tent and they way those people spoke to us was when it all started. I'm not proud of the fist to cuff's I've been in as young man, they happend. he wasn't a racer he was a yachty. And he deserved it. I've been slapped for being a loud mouth. Not in a long time,.....cuz i was slapped. And I'm never rude to the waitress or bar tender. That's the difference between a roudy sailor and those who I speak of, which are many.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

You don't get it, smack. That court ruling applies to a very narrow case, where two participants in a race ("the sailing yachts Charles Jourdan and Endeavour collided while racing") who had accepted whatever the terms of that race were, collided.

The Racing Rules allow for the participants to waive COLREG, and whether that as a matter of contract law is legal, is a whole other can of worms. The racing rules for any one event are not simply a contract, they are an adhesion contract, and whether an adhesion contract can set aside international and national safety regulations...Oh yeah, that's one terribly narrow and specific can of worms that WILL vary from state to state. 

So ignoring the tempest in that teapot (and racers normally consent to abide by their own rules among themselves) the bottom line is still that COLREGS apply when a racer meets a non-participant on the water. 

What the NASCAR boys call "bumpin" is vehicular battery and assault with a deadly weapon, off the track.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Smack, Great vid – again, ‘splain to me how match racing doesn’t really improve your seamanship skills?

Myth: RRS are complicated and different than COLREGS or Inland Rules or whatever. FALSE – There are only 20 rules in RRS that cover on the course situations. The rest of the rule book is devoted to race management, resolution of disputes and equipment. All the basic rules concerning sailboats in the COLREGS are restated in RRS. The additional rules are for situations that uniquely come up in racing, like overlap going into a turning mark and so forth. 

In SF Bay all organized races need to have prior USCG approval. None of the courses are “closed”. The only time I recall the CG closing off an area was back in the eighties when they closed off the Estuary so the America’s Cup racers could do some demonstration match racing. The thing that “gets” me is the apparent arrogance on the part of some cruisers cutting through a pack of racers just to enforce their “rights”. Hey, share the wave man! This punk attitude is just what ruined the surf culture here in Cali. Let the racers do their thing, in a few minutes they will be gone down course and the water will be empty again. If going fast is the antithesis of cruising, why the heck are you trying to occupy the same piece of water at the same time as a racer? Share the wave man, there’s enough water for all of us! 

The problem when cruisers cut into a race fleet in a crossing situation is they are out of phase with what all the race boats are doing. A couple things then happens. You force that racer to tack (or jibe), forcing him into another crossing situation with one or more other racers causing a chain reaction throughout the fleet. A best this would lead to a bunch of screaming or yelling or worse, a collision, damage and injury. Some fleets like one designs, the fleet races in a very compact group with lots of overlap and very close quarters, and cruiser running through is like a bowling ball through ten pins. The other thing happens when you cross, is you become part of the race for the boat you are cutting off. He has to deal with you in addition to the other race boats. The other boats do not suffer the same interference. By cutting that racer off, you will most likely make him finish at least one place lower than if you didn’t interfere. My own pet peeve is all the tour, ferry and booze cruise boats on SF Bay. Those guys purposely drive through start lines and racing fleets merely to give their passengers photo opportunities with their camera phones.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

hellosailor said:


> You don't get it, smack. That court ruling applies to a very narrow case, where two participants in a race ("the sailing yachts Charles Jourdan and Endeavour collided while racing") who had accepted whatever the terms of that race were, collided.
> 
> The Racing Rules allow for the participants to waive COLREG, and whether that as a matter of contract law is legal, is a whole other can of worms. The racing rules for any one event are not simply a contract, they are an adhesion contract, and whether an adhesion contract can set aside international and national safety regulations...Oh yeah, that's one terribly narrow and specific can of worms that WILL vary from state to state.
> 
> ...


I get it, dude. And your last sentence is precisely the thorny issue being discussed here. The can of worms that you're not seeing centers on the _cruising sailor_ entering a marked race course under COLREGS (in other words - the responsibility of collision avoidance _by the cruiser_). That's where things get sticky. As I said, I think one could potentially argue the point that in that scenario, the cruiser is at fault in any collision with a race boat under Part B Section II.18 of the COLREGS.

There are several ways to look at things. That's why I'm great rail meat.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

GeorgeB said:


> Smack, Great vid - again, 'splain to me how match racing doesn't really improve your seamanship skills?


Woah! Where did I say that?


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## Geoff54 (Oct 30, 2011)

smackdaddy said:


> That's right. But, again, the issue is that even under the auspices of "prudent seamanship" a "cruiser" shouldn't enter an active, marked race course...an area where RRS rules (that he knows nothing about) are in play and superseding the COLREGS. That's just not smart or cool - regardless of the territorial rights one has on the water..


I think the whole point is that RRS rules do not supersede COLREGS. It is a private agreement that you have made that only applies to you. And why is it smart or cool for you to decide on an area and say "this is only for me and my rules apply - I don't care about an international agreement and set of rules administered by the UN"? The point of COLREGS is to have a set of rules that always apply so no one is trying to guess what is going on and what the other guy is going to do. It's not always clear where a course is or when a race will start, therefore under all circumstance, COLREGS applies. Plain and simple - Oh, isn't that where we started.



smackdaddy said:


> That's the crux of the frustration I think. And this is why the sports field analogies above make sense.


The sports field analogy doesn't make sense because that is an activity taking place in an area specifically set aside under the rules that govern the use of that space - usually enacted by the city or county. If you want a Soccer analogy, how about this. In an area of a park for general use and used by people picnicking, sun bathing, playing frisbee and generally hanging out, 22 guys turn up, stake out a pitch and start a soccer game. And expect everyone else to move out of the way. No that's not a perfect analogy either... but it's much closer.



smackdaddy said:


> I think you could even make a legal argument (though maybe a bit stretchy) that the cruiser should give way to the racer under Part B Section II.18 (restricted maneuvering).


Under most circumstances that's real stretch. I suppose that it could be true under some very specific circumstances such as a racer being forced onto rocks while other boats are so close that they are restricting his ability to tack away. It can also be argued that racing boats are often more maneuverable than other sailing craft.

I think "prudent seamanship" is the only thing we can agree on although arguing what is and isn't prudent is subjective and would take more energy than I have. Just keep in mind that a couple of skippers more intent on racing than yielding to a stand on vessel would be imprudent.

I hope you never tangle with anyone who is not racing but if you should, COLREGS will be the standard that is applied to determine fault. On or off the course.

I done enough racing of other types to understand what is going on. I sail to get away from people and to avoid that kind of stress, so the chances of me getting tangled up with someone racing is very slim. But if I do, COLREGS is what I will be using to avoid a collision. I think that MOST people racing would understand and respect that and would be applying the same rules to avoid me.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

Capt.aaron said:


> If you are new to sailing I think you are better off crewing on a delivery with a salty blue water captian than going out and getting yelled at by some preppy on mission to sail around a can faster than the other dandy.


1. When I have a delivery with crewing opportunities one of the characteristics that will get someone aboard my boat _is racing experience_. The references are easy to follow up on and the judgment of the candidate is easy to assess.

2. There are racing skippers that do a lot of yelling but _they_ don't often get or keep the best crew. Crew usually walk off those boats pretty quick, at least the ones that are good enough, or have the potential to be good enough, to find another ride.



smackdaddy said:


> That's right. But, again, the issue is that even under the auspices of "prudent seamanship" a "cruiser" shouldn't enter an active, marked race course...an area where RRS rules (that he knows nothing about) are in play and superseding the COLREGS. That's just not smart or cool - regardless of the territorial rights one has on the water.


On purpose or not you got exactly the correct word. Non-racers _should_ not unnecessarily cross a race fleet. However they _can_ and they _may_ in which event COLREGS apply outside the demarcation line and Inland Rules apply inside. That doesn't make it polite.

Last evening I was out sailing with a friend (and his dog) in Annapolis at the height of the Wednesday night races. We did some interesting jinking to stay out of the way even when we were the stand on vessel. We didn't have to but it was the thoughtful thing to do.

On the other hand if some butthead starts yelling "we're racing" I'm likely to assert my rights.

Read your NORs.


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## Geoff54 (Oct 30, 2011)

I think that there is one circumstance when COLREGS doesn't apply to racing. That is when two guys are racing to pick up the last mooring ball :laugher:laugher


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

SVauspicious. I have done loads and loads of delivery's from Fl. to South and Central America over the last 20 years and I take a newby every time over a racer. I usually single hand so why do I need an experienced crew? The one time I took a racer. I woke up from falling out of my bunk. The wind had picked up, he had it sheeted in and heeled over, beeting the [email protected] out of the boat, rig and equipment, Which I am responsable for getting there in one piece, He's out there going YA HOO., where sailing now!! it's a different mind set, and I will agree to disagree.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

SVAuspicious, I’m not following the logic here. Imagine a crossing situation, you on starboard, mystery boat on port. How do you know if he is racing or not unless he tells you? And if he does, you then “force” your “rights”? So, if you don’t hear a word from him is your tendency to give up your “rights” and let him pass? When would you consider letting a Port boat cross you? Talking to your fellow skippers is pretty common amongst racers. How else do you let someone know you need room at a mark or that must tack to avoid an obstruction etc? Unfortunately, crossing situations develop too fast for full sentences or conversation. What kind of hail would be acceptable? “Skipper, do you mind relinquishing your “rights” even though you are on starboard and we on port? It is very important to us as we are engaged in competition. What say you, mind if we sail through?” My guess is there would be a big crunching sound about halfway through that conversation.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Okay, it seems you're working some serpentine logic here. Let me try to boil it down to its essence.

You're cruising around in your sailboat with this mentality:


Geoff54 said:


> Why is it smart or cool for [racers] to decide on an area and say "this is only for me and my rules apply - I don't care about an international agreement and set of rules administered by the UN"?


(Let's leave aside the fact that, yes, their RRS do apply to them over the COLREGS on that course as found in the above case. That's law here in the US at this point.)

You then see that marked course up ahead between you and your destination. And, drawing on your above mentality, you ask yourself, "Do they 'deserve' to be there?"


Geoff54 said:


> The sports field analogy doesn't make sense because that is an activity taking place in an area specifically set aside under the rules that govern the use of that space.


That's precisely whats going on via the RRS on that course which has been set aside (marked) for that activity. COLREGS won't come into play - unless you continue on and force them to.

You now have a decision to make. Do you avoid the course and the racing boats therein? Or do you hold your course because you don't think they're smart or cool to "decide on that area"? They are, after all, in your way.

Let's even set aside the courtesy angle...what action would prudent seamanship dictate you take at the helm of your boat? Which brings us back to the Part B Section II.18 of the COLREGS, which you, the cruiser, are definitely under as you keep sailing toward that course - _to which the race boats are restricted_.

If you continue on through at this point, should you maybe expect some yelling?

Plain and simple?


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

SVAuspicious, I might have come across a bit harshly. I see you were out during the Wednesday night beer cans in ‘Naptown. Had the opportunity to do a few when I was in Maryland on business a few years ago. Those Spa Creek finishes are a real zoo – worse than the Beltway at rush hour!


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

I am certainly not going to argue that yachts involved in a race are exempt from the Colregs, and I cant imagine many racers feel that way. Of course we obey the rules of the road when interacting with non racing traffic. In my mind this is not about which rules apply, it is about courtesy and respect. If you are out for a casual sail why wouldn't you give way to the racer, even if you had right of way? Presumably you are in no hurry, so just tack away or duck behind them. 

I suspect the real offenders are the clueless skippers who are out for a cocktail cruise and are oblivious to what is going on around them. Those are the ones with kids all over the foredeck cheefully waving at the boats with all the pretty, colourful sails, as we all throw in crash gybes to avoid them. I'm sure there are a few that have a bone to pick with racers and just do it because they can, but they are in the minority.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Geoff54, everything in the COLREGS concerning the obligations when two boats under sail meet are written into the RRS. THE RULES ARE THE SAME. The RRS have additional rules that apply to situations not covered under COLREGS. For example, picture two boats sailing parallel to a windward shore you closest to shore (windward) and the other guy is directly leeward to you. You approach an obstruction, shoal, sand bar, whatever. Under COLREGS concerning leeward-windward boats , that leeward boat is under no obligation to give you room. Under RRS, once you tell him you need room he is obligated to either tack away or deviate course to allow you room. Isn’t that civilized? Remember, the whole point of RRS is to keep boats from hitting each other and not some secret, alternate way of doing things.

Something I have noticed over the years is that racers tend to be more knowledgeable on COLLREGS than a lot of “cruisers” are. I see a lot of cases when even though they are privileged, the "cruiser" will tack away at the last minute because they are unsure of the rule (or point of sail they are on!). Or they will be lousy at maintaining a straight course forcing me to crash tack when moments before I had a safe crossing. Fortunately, for the most part, I can usually spot these guys a long ways away by looking at their poor sail trim as well as the inability to sail a straight course.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

GeorgeB said:


> SVAuspicious, I'm not following the logic here.


The short version is that if the people racing are decent I'm going out of my way to be decent also. When I'm racing I'm going to go out of my way to communicate politely to non-racers (when I can - remember "close" to most cruisers and "close" to many racers are very different distances) when I ask the _favor_ of giving way when they don't have to.



GeorgeB said:


> Imagine a crossing situation, you on starboard, mystery boat on port. How do you know if he is racing or not unless he tells you?


Observation and real-time analysis. Ensign? Not racing. Class flag? Racing. Sail numbers? Maybe racing. Lots of other boats going the same direction in the same area? Maybe racing. Grill on the pushpit? Probably not racing. Lots of canvas? Almost certainly not racing.



GeorgeB said:


> And if he does, you then "force" your "rights"?


Of course not. No one "forces" anything. Rule 1 is avoid collision. However, if a racer is ranting at me that I should give way when I am the stand-on vessel for no reason other than that s/he is racing I will stand on to the point that I _have_ to take action to avoid collision. In my home waters where I know the parties I'll contact the race committee and file a protest. Check the racing rules.



GeorgeB said:


> So, if you don't hear a word from him is your tendency to give up your "rights" and let him pass?


Yep. It would be nice to get a friendly wave back when I'm on starboard and he's on port and I take his stern.



GeorgeB said:


> When would you consider letting a Port boat cross you?


As long as they're polite. Often they may not even realize I changed course to accommodate since I change early. No big deal. Around Annapolis on a big weekend or nearly any Wednesday or Thursday evening there often isn't time and distance for early avoidance, so I'm closer and course changes are more apparent. That's when a wave would be nice, particularly if I have to gybe or tack to stay clear.



GeorgeB said:


> Talking to your fellow skippers is pretty common amongst racers.


Again you have to be pretty close. No radio use during races here on the Chesapeake during races other than race committee broadcasts.



smackdaddy said:


> (Let's leave aside the fact that, yes, their RRS do apply to them over the COLREGS on that course as found in the above case. That's law here in the US at this point.)


No. The RRS, the NORs, and the SIs are _on top_ of the (usually) Inland Rules or COLREGS. Talk to your local Race Committee or Protest Committee. Where there is a conflict between the RRS and civil rules, the RRS control {i]ONLY BETWEEN TWO RACING BOATS[/i] not between a racer and a non-racer. At least here on the Chesapeake there are in fact codicils in the SIs for CBYRA events that will disqualify a racer who does not observe the civil rules and in fact any racer who conflicts with commercial traffic at all.



smackdaddy said:


> That's precisely whats going on via the RRS on that course which has been set aside (marked) for that activity. COLREGS won't come into play - unless you continue on and force them to.


No.



smackdaddy said:


> You now have a decision to make. Do you avoid the course and the racing boats therein? Or do you hold your course because you don't think they're smart or cool to "decide on that area"? They are, after all, in your way.


No again. I'm a civil and courteous person. I'll do the best I can to make way for a racing fleet but I don't have to, and if I have issues of my own I'm going to fall back on the rules.

Ultimately it comes back to Rule 1 - avoid collision. If I'm the stand-on vessel with one or two aboard and a fully crewed boat in a race is the give way vessel how do you think the balance of liability will land in court? Of course Rule 1 applies, and it would be best for all concerned not to end up in court but that is the end of the path you describe.



smackdaddy said:


> Now, back to the Part B Section II.18 of the COLREGS, which you, the cruiser, are definitely under as you keep sailing toward that course - _to which the race boats are restricted_.


No. Talk to the Race Committee. You are misunderstanding (or getting bad counsel) about either the RRS or the SIs you are sailing under. If you are referring to II.18(b)(ii) you are sorely mistaken. Sailboat racing isn't like American football - there aren't course boundaries in any SIs I've ever seen. Even if your local racing authority sets boundaries that does NOT constitute "restricted ability to maneuver" under the rules.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

SchockT said:


> I am certainly not going to argue that yachts involved in a race are exempt from the Colregs, and I cant imagine many racers feel that way. Of course we obey the rules of the road when interacting with non racing traffic. In my mind this is not about which rules apply, it is about courtesy and respect. If you are out for a casual sail why wouldn't you give way to the racer, even if you had right of way? Presumably you are in no hurry, so just tack away or duck behind them.
> 
> I suspect the real offenders are the clueless skippers who are out for a cocktail cruise and are oblivious to what is going on around them. Those are the ones with kids all over the foredeck cheefully waving at the boats with all the pretty, colourful sails, as we all throw in crash gybes to avoid them. I'm sure there are a few that have a bone to pick with racers and just do it because they can, but they are in the minority.


I was going out of Palma de Maiorca on passage to Minorca when I saw that I was going to have to cross perpendicularly to one of the main Spanish regattas. Lots of fast boast going at full speed. It was a windy day and everybody was going at full blast included me. I calculated my course and made small adjustments to let everybody pass (I had the right of way) except a crew on a First 40 that started to maneuver to give me passage. It was not my intention and I was pretty sure I could avoid them.

I did not want to cause any inconvenience to their race so I turned to the wind and almost stopped the boat. They get the message and resumed course, as myself. They passed nearby our bow and we were enthusiastically cheered by an all girl's team.

Well, that more than deserved some seconds lost on my voyage.

Regards

Paulo


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

SVAuspicious said:


> No. The RRS, the NORs, and the SIs are _on top_ of the (usually) Inland Rules or COLREGS. Talk to your local Race Committee or Protest Committee. *Where there is a conflict between the RRS and civil rules, the RRS control {i]ONLY BETWEEN TWO RACING BOATS[/i]* not between a racer and a non-racer. At least here on the Chesapeake there are in fact codicils in the SIs for CBYRA events that will disqualify a racer who does not observe the civil rules and in fact any racer who conflicts with commercial traffic at all.


As to the RRS superseding COLREGS that's exactly what I'm saying.

From the _Juno SRL v. S/V Endeavour_ case:



> On October 3, 1992, the sailing yachts Charles Jourdan and Endeavour collided while racing in the La Nioulargue Regatta off the southern coast of France. 1 The Charles Jourdan filed a protest against the Endeavour under the International Yacht Racing Rules (IYR Rules) and the Regatta's Sailing Instructions. 2 In accordance with the yacht racing rules, an International Jury convened and found the Endeavour entirely at fault for having violated the IYR Rules. 3 Approximately one year later in Maine, the owners of the Charles Jourdan arrested the Endeavour and filed suit in federal district court seeking as damages the cost of repair to the Charles Jourdan and lost charter income. 4 In a bench trial, *the district court ignored the finding of the International Jury and instead applied the International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea (COLREGS)*. 5 It found the Charles Jourdan sixty-percent at fault and the Endeavour forty-percent at fault. 6 The United States Court of Appeals for the First Circuit reviewed the case de novo, 7 reversing the district court's allocation of fault. 8 *Applying the IYR Rules, the court reinstated the finding of the International Jury that Endeavour was solely at fault for the collision. 9 The court of appeals held that the Charles Jourdan and the Endeavour were contractually bound to race by the IYR Rules, and therefore any issues of fault for collisions must be resolved according to those rules.* 10 Juno SRL v. S/V Endeavour, 58 ...


The result of this, however, just as George points out above, is that there are absolutely different collision rules at play for the racers (RRS) than those under which the cruising sailor is operating _outside_ that course (COLREGS only). As you say, racers will observe both (yes, the two are "on top of each other") - but that doesn't mean the racer and cruiser are not under "different" sets of rules until the point at which the intruding cruising boat forces the racing boat to observe the COLREGS as laid out in Part 2 of the RRS:

_When a boat sailing under these rules meets a vessel that is not, she 
shall comply with the International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea (IRPCAS) or government right-of-way rules. If the sailing instructions so state, the rules of Part 2 are replaced by the rightof-way rules of the IRPCAS or by government right-of-way rules._



SVAuspicious said:


> No again. I'm a civil and courteous person. I'll do the best I can to make way for a racing fleet but I don't have to, and if I have issues of my own I'm going to fall back on the rules.
> 
> Ultimately it comes back to Rule 1 - avoid collision. If I'm the stand-on vessel with one or two aboard and a fully crewed boat in a race is the give way vessel how do you think the balance of liability will land in court? Of course Rule 1 applies, and it would be best for all concerned not to end up in court but that is the end of the path you describe.


Bingo - it is all about Rule 1. But, again, you guys' arguments keep putting all the onus on the racers. My point all along has been that it can easily be argued that the cruiser has _perhaps more_ onus on him to stay well clear of marked racing areas - _especially_ if he's not familiar with the RRS. And this is *precisely* because of Rule 1.

Sure, you have all the rights in the world to sail into an area in which every other boat is operating under rules you don't understand - but how smart is that?



SVAuspicious said:


> No. Talk to the Race Committee. You are misunderstanding (or getting bad counsel) about either the RRS or the SIs you are sailing under. If you are referring to II.18(b)(ii) you are sorely mistaken. Sailboat racing isn't like American football - there aren't course boundaries in any SIs I've ever seen. Even if your local racing authority sets boundaries that does NOT constitute "restricted ability to maneuver" under the rules.


I've not received or seen any counsel or SIs that state this. This is a hypothetical (though not unreasonable) interpretation of that rule and how the _cruising skipper_, operating only under the COLREGS, could/should view the racing boats. It's not something racing boats normally claim. But this interpretation would certainly help alleviate some of the tension among the groups. And who knows, it could come up in a suit someday.

Look, language parsing gets boring. All I'm saying is that if the cruising sailor is as prudent a seaman as he claims to be, he's going to stay well out of the way of racing boats. Collisions will be avoided and screaming will be minimized. Otherwise, he's a bonehead who deserves a good verbal beatdown.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

Last night we witnessed one of those "instances" of other boaters not being courteous and also being clueless.

On the upwind leg the boat in front of us, a J 105, was on a perfect course to make the mark but clearly pinching to do it. It was VERY CLEAR the 30+ boats were racing. The J105 was on starboard tack, all of a sudden I notice a Catalina 27 flying a genny on a port beam reach. She completely cut off the J105, threw them way off course, I think they should have t-boned the moron but the RACERS were courteous and gave way, FOLLOWING THE ULTIMATE COLREG RULE OF AVOID COLLISIONS. The "skipper" and I use that term very lightly, appeared shocked and dismayed as the J Boat crew was yelling STARBOARD as loud as they could....

If anyone knows who was sailing this Catalina 27 near Falmouth, ME last night around 7:15 pm please let them know they need a course in both etiquette and rules of the road... Idiots abound....:hothead:hothead:hothead

Are sailors really this clueless AND self centered????


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

SVAuspicious said:


> Well we're doing different sorts of racing. Most of the boats I race on like everyone dressed the same - should I have to pay for that t-shirt? I like to sail with these folks also but it is their choice to race and the cost of a dozen shirts and hats doesn't even show up compared to sails.
> 
> I think you are doing your newbies a disservice. My cruising is much more fun as a direct result of the experience and skills garnered from racing.
> 
> I have more money in my cruising boat than any of the boats I race on. I've sailed single-handed to 'away' races so the boat I'm racing on can raft up. I lug all the food and extra sails. I do a lot of cooking and advance food prep to keep weight off the race boat. I put a lot of time on boat prep and repair to be competitive. I work in the industry and have tools that aren't in everyone's tool kit. My "tool box" is an 8x14 dual-axle trailer.


Been there and got the gear as well. Sure, big budget programs with significant time commitments, etc... Hell, you're a pro. I certainly hope the owner is reimbursing you for your work on the boat especially since your hauling around a rigger's van. I think we're talking more about a typical Phrf program. Hats, T's, sure. Follies? If I want everyone to match, then I'd better spring for it, but that'd be almost a new head sail worth crew gear... Sails win.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

Luckly they all dress pretty much and look pretty much the same anyway's. The only other time you see so many look alikes walking around Key west is during Hemingaway Day's.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

You know, it is pretty impressive that we've all argued for 139 posts and no one has gone super-nova or gotten banned. I don't think anyone has even been Mod-Edited. Are we mature or what?


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

One more time&#8230; When it comes to crossing situations between sailboats. *THE COLREGS AND RRS HAVE THE SAME RULES!* The reason the COLREGS are mentioned at all in the RRS and/or SIs are the rules concerning powerboats, commercial boats, landing aircraft etc! Starboard still has "rights" over Port, Windward/Leeward, overtaking vessel. They are all the same! RRS just goes a little bit further and has additional rules covering situations not normally encountered in day-to-day sailing. Please read both sets of rules before you jump to conclusions. Both sets are really short and easy to read.

SVAuspicious, we are a lot alike. We too, gladly share the water. Here on SF Bay there are usually multiple races on Saturdays in the summertime. The YRA marks are widely published and we will even avoid the City front in the early afternoons just to let the racer crowd "do their thing" after all, we are most likely just joy riding around going nowhere in particular, so why not share the water. We will sometimes with guests loiter safely lee of the leeward mark and watch the action develop. Nothing like having a "box seat" watching those last minute high wind jibes and muffed spinnaker takedowns.

Not sure I'd sail with a delivery skipper who purposely chooses inexperienced sailors. I kind of like to sleep knowing that my life is in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing. Besides, shouldn't you be using a lee cloth during ocean passages?

Lastly, can one of you legal beagles provide us a brief on Charles Jourdan v. Endeavour? I'd like to know the facts of the case as well as the points of law.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

GeorgeB said:


> One more time&#8230; When it comes to crossing situations between sailboats. *THE COLREGS AND RRS HAVE THE SAME RULES!* The reason the COLREGS are mentioned at all in the RRS and/or SIs are the rules concerning powerboats, commercial boats, landing aircraft etc! Starboard still has "rights" over Port, Windward/Leeward, overtaking vessel. They are all the same! RRS just goes a little bit further and has additional rules covering situations not normally encountered in day-to-day sailing. Please read both sets of rules before you jump to conclusions. Both sets are really short and easy to read.
> 
> SVAuspicious, we are a lot alike. We too, gladly share the water. Here on SF Bay there are usually multiple races on Saturdays in the summertime. The YRA marks are widely published and we will even avoid the City front in the early afternoons just to let the racer crowd "do their thing" after all, we are most likely just joy riding around going nowhere in particular, so why not share the water. We will sometimes with guests loiter safely lee of the leeward mark and watch the action develop. Nothing like having a "box seat" watching those last minute high wind jibes and muffed spinnaker takedowns.
> 
> ...


George - they don't both have the _same_ rules. That's why the _Juno SRL v. S/V Endeavour_ case is what it is. The RRS has the same rules that are in the COLREGS. But the COLREGS don't have all the same rules that are in the RRS.

Here's some hilarious reading:

USCA1 Opinion


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

If you single hand on long ocean passages it doesn't matter who's out there, it could be a rooster in a cage trained to crow when it see's a ship. I purposefully sleep between 7:30 and Noon and a cat nap before sun set and I'm up all the rest of the time. I purposefully bring newby's to give them the chance to get out there and get some expirience. Remember, I drive 400 foot vessels FULL OF EXPLOSIVE LIQUID CARGO for a living, this sail boat stuff is pretty EZ. I'd rather some one who will wake me when they see something they don't understand, than some ya hoo who will make a decsision with out waking me. And yes I guess i should have had the cloth up, but we were running and flat when i went to bed. This guy saw that the wind had picked up and changed course to have some fun.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

And in regards to the long winded argument ya'll have been having about right of way. When I take a loaded barge across Biscayne Bay, I have to go right through the perpetual race course out there. And It breaks my heart to make those dudes tack and jibe, some of them cut in front of me which takes some balls. I have the stopping power of a train. I don't want to disrupt their race, but the law of tonnage prevails.


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## Geoff54 (Oct 30, 2011)

We seem to be going in circles here so, unless something comes up that I really can't ignore, I'm ducking out after this. The logic seems simple enough to me but let me answer your points.



smackdaddy said:


> You're cruising around in your sailboat with this mentality:


Not really - I've avoided any problems so far and I'm happy to try to avoid a race whenever possible. The issue is, that you are saying, that it's my responsibility to avoid a race. You have exactly the same level of responsibility to avoid me as I do to avoid you.



smackdaddy said:


> (Let's leave aside the fact that, yes, their RRS do apply to them over the COLREGS on that course as found in the above case. That's law here in the US at this point.)


Yes, let's leave that aside. As has been pointed out by several people, that only applies in relation to other boats in the same race.



smackdaddy said:


> You then see that marked course up ahead between you and your destination. And, drawing on your above mentality, you ask yourself, "Do they 'deserve' to be there?"


Now you really are trying to put words into my mouth. Of course they 'deserve' to be there but no more or less than anyone else 'deserves' to be there, should they wish to. Also that "marked up course may or may not be obvious. It's nowhere on my chart, CG haven't issued a warning, those buoys are not navaids that I recognize, maybe it's a party!!... or maybe the course just hasn't been well marked, or maybe I'll just nip across before it starts - ooops ....



smackdaddy said:


> That's precisely whats going on via the RRS on that course which has been set aside (marked) for that activity. COLREGS won't come into play - unless you continue on and force them to.


It has been set aside by you for your purposes, without you having any special rights or privilege. It is no different and has no more authority than the guys who start a soccer game in the middle of a picnic area. Apart from your own "private" agreement, COLREGS does apply by default. I wouldn't be forcing anything.



smackdaddy said:


> You now have a decision to make. Do you avoid the course and the racing boats therein? Or do you hold your course because you don't think they're smart or cool to "decide on that area"? They are, after all, in your way.


Now you are trying to put words in my mouth again. You started the "smart or cool", I simply pointed out that it applies both ways. Ignoring the attitude aspect for a moment, 99 times out of 100 I would hold back. But in this academic scenario, if I felt I had sufficient reason to need to be on the other side AND I thought that I could cross safely, then yes, I would cross and I would apply COLREGS and expect the racers to do the same. Here's a real world example that actually happened. I was double handed, tacking up a channel when I caught up with a bunch of racers (this is the right term I believe) doing the same. I don't know enough to tell you what they were but they were a one design type fleet of maybe 20ft. We were significantly faster. On open water I would have passed them but, had I decided to pass in this fairly narrow channel, , I would have been the overtaking boat and therefore had to give way all the way through. I decided that it wasn't worth it and just hung back until I got to where I was going. Now imagine if I had been coming the other way. My only reasonable option would have been to take a deep breath and sail through them, which is what I would have done, using COLREGS and expecting that they would do the same.



smackdaddy said:


> Let's even set aside the courtesy angle...what action would prudent seamanship dictate you take at the helm of your boat? Which brings us back to the Part B Section II.18 of the COLREGS, which you, the cruiser, are definitely under as you keep sailing toward that course - to which the race boats are restricted.


O.K., let's ignore the courtesy angle, even though that is the main thing that would prevent me from continuing. The race boats are not restricted to that course. That is a completely artificial limitation that they have imposed upon themselves. There is a world of difference between unable to maneuver and unwilling to maneuver. Should a collision result because a racer was unwilling to go outside the course to avoid it, I think he would be on very shaky ground if he tried to claim limited ability to maneuver. And yes, I would be "under:" COLREGS as would be the racer and any other vessel.

Look Smack, if you want to boil it down to it's essence, it's pretty simple:
1. COLREGS applies.
2. The only exception is the agreement within the race fleet.
3. "Prudent" is a very subjective term and applies equally to the racer and non-racer - it's better not to get to the point where you need to argue it. .
4. Courtesy and the desire to avoid a "situation" is the major thing that prevents conflict. Period.

Have a nice race!!


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## Geoff54 (Oct 30, 2011)

smackdaddy said:


> You know, it is pretty impressive that we've all argued for 139 posts and no one has gone super-nova or gotten banned. I don't think anyone has even been Mod-Edited. Are we mature or what?


O.K., I couldn't ignore this one. You speak for yourself, I don't want to sound like a wheel of old cheddar


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Smack, sit down and write brief, diagram the collision and look up the points of law. This thing would have been overturned on any number of the points. Both were sailboats engaged in sailing. Overtaking vessel is a misapplication of the rules in both COLREGS and RRS as the boats were on opposite tacks, making it a crossing situation rather than an overtaking situation (of which they would have to be on the same tack). If the Endeavor was a power boat, then it still would have been a crossing situation (boat on the right). I, for the life of me, cannot diagram the collision. How a boom on a slower boat beating to windward could take out the backstay of a faster boat that's spinnaker reaching is beyond me. Perhaps someone can diagram this and add clarity.

Hauling explosive cargo while not keeping a proper watch? Sounds pretty dicey to me. I heard that the Key West roosters were something else, but employing them as watch captains is a new one on me. Having done many, many miles ocean racing and many miles delivering said boats to their venues, I, as well as the other racers I've sailed with, know the difference between race and delivery modes. I would go so far as we are probably easier on boats while in delivery mode as we are the guys that have to fix them before the next race. I sleep better when I know I have competent crew driving the boat. But hey, I'm just a _"yachty"_  who has way too much money invested in his boat to risk placing it in the hands of trained roosters and other assorted newbies.

All that we are saying is RRS and COLREGs are in agreement. The RRS go so far and state this. We all know things like Rules 9, 10 and 18 and what the duties and responsibilities are.

I keep my boat down the Alameda Estuary. It is a deepwater channel that varies between 150 - 300 yards wide and 4NM to "open" water. Home to the Port of Oakland's Inner Harbor, tour boats, booze cruise boats, ferries, tugs, tugs with fuel barges, a couple thousand pleasure boats of all stripes and a half dozen yacht clubs with all their intend ant racing. Isn't a day that goes by where I have dozens of crossings while going each way. Never had a collision. Be cool, dude, share the wave.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Geoff54 said:


> I've avoided any problems so far and I'm happy to try to avoid a race whenever possible.
> 
> Of course they 'deserve' to be there, should they wish to.
> 
> If I felt I had sufficient reason to need to be on the other side AND I thought that I could cross safely, then yes, I would cross and I would apply COLREGS and expect the racers to do the same.


Cool.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

I never said we don't keep a proper watch on the fuel barge, ever. But we do have right of way over the racers. And as a single handler, the crew I may have are just people on the boat. The radar dector I bought at radio shack, and my cape horn wind vane have been all the crew I need and trust., and I'm constanly off shore in shipping lanes alone, have been for over 20 years. Why does it take a crew of racers to do what a proper sailor can do quietly by him self? The rooster thing was a joke, but if you took it lierally, well. what can i say to that. Maybe one of those roosters would be better crew than a round the can bay racer.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

GeorgeB said:


> Smack, sit down and write brief, diagram the collision and look up the points of law


You're kidding, right? Who's picking up my $650/hour fee?

I'm with you George. Share the wave. That's what it's all about.


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## CBinRI (May 17, 2004)

Even when I was strictly a cruiser, I never wanted to affect the outcome of a race by asserting my right of way. I was never in much of a hurry anyway. The bay is pretty big and my ego isn't that big.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Capt.aaron said:


> I never said we don't keep a proper watch on the fuel barge, ever. But we do have right of way over the racers. And as a single handler, the crew I may have are just people on the boat. The radar dector I bought at radio shack, and my cape horn wind vane have been all the crew I need and trust., and I'm constanly off shore in shipping lanes alone, have been for over 20 years. Why does it take a crew of racers to do what a proper sailor can do quietly by him self?


Hey - that's for the "Why all the angst against singlehanders on Sailnet?" thread.

BTW - have I mentioned how singlehanding violates the COLREGS? Heh-heh.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

hellosailor said:


> td? " most racing boats are pretty damn reliable " And they are all "built to a price". In 88 or 89 I had the pleasure while in NYC to visit one of the Kizi challengers from the last America's Cup race and I asked "Did you sail her over on her own bottom?" The crew guffawed loudly and said no, mate, she'd snap in two if she was caught out in any real weather, these boats were designed for an anticipated wind range on the course, and that was it. Every ounce more meant they'd been top heavy to win. So, well built, yes. But just built well enough to make it through the course--and not a dime more.





> Previous Post by TDW .... ps - ref the strength of racing boats .... I really believe that if you take away the very top echelon where in any sport the equipment is going to be on the very cutting edge most racing boats are pretty damn reliable and in many cases as reliable as your average cruiser. I might point out that very very few boats have ever sunk during the Sydney - Hobart and even those left incapacitated have in the main been able to return to port under their own steam. Meanwhile two examples of boats that went down during the race (Koomooloo and Winston Churchill) both would today be considered heavily built cruisers.


Do I really have to shout ?

If you design a boat to do nothing more than race around the cans in a specific venue then why would you build it to cross the Atlantic ? My point remains .... most racing boats are pretty damn reliable. The very top echelon is surely going to be highly strung. Jaysus, I love driving racing cars on the track but for day to day driving give me my plonker sedan any day.

2011 Rolex Sydney - Hobart ... one of the greatest distance races on the planet and a pretty serious test for all concerned. 88 starters. 12 DNFs. Of those 12 one was disqualified due to a radio infringement while the other eleven all made port under their own steam. Two of that eleven withdrew because the engines failed and they couldn't recharge their batteries. Nine withdrew due to sailing related damage to rig, sundry gear or sails. One withdrew due to hull damage.

Get my drift ?


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

smackdaddy said:


> Hey - that's for the "Why all the angst against singlehanders on Sailnet?" thread.
> 
> BTW - have I mentioned how singlehanding violates the COLREGS? Heh-heh.


Only in the states.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Cheers BuubleHead and thank you for kicking off the thread. 

An awful lot of these arguments remind me of the rag and stick general attitude towards stinkers. We get cut off by some arsehole who thinks going past at 35 knots with only a metre or two to spare if fine and dandy whereupon all stinkers are arseholes. They aren't. Its just that we only notice the knobheads. 

Me, I know I can legally force a right of way but why bother ? If we are heading down harbour on a Saturday we tend to drop sails and motor through the worst area and get outside the heads. As I said before I don't go sailing to get stressed. Oh sure it may happen if the weather turns ugly but I don't go looking for it. 

btw ... there are times when legally you are without a leg to stand on e.g the start f the Syd-Hob is in a declared zone where non competitors (other than some media boats) are strictly forbidden. Try taking that one to court no matter how freaking starboard is your tack.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Isn’t the COLREGS an international agreement? Why would it only be enforceable in the USA? Radioshack radar detector? As in a K-Band “fuzz buster”? You know that unit is tuned to 24 GHz and commercial marine radar is down between 2.9 and 9.5 Gig. Sure, the fuzz buster will light up when flooded with energy, but it won’t always be reliable. Even Cobra’s CARD unit doesn’t have a that of high probability of intercept. Way back in my “Old Crow” days I schlepped SIGINT systems around the globe and have a pretty good idea of what it takes to detect signals. Your boat, your choices. If it was me, I’d get an AIS receiving VHF and hook up an audible alarm.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

I actually use a wind up egg timer set to go off every 15 min.'s if I'm tired and head bobb'n . My little radar thing goes off when a ships radar hit's it. I've alway's seen the ship first any way's. I have ais on the tug but I don't have that kind of power on my little enginless sloop. I sleep when the sun come's up. If I have a person with me, all they have to do is wake me if they see a ship, the boat is steering it's self. I Spend a lot of time in a commercial wheel house so I know the culture up there, they won't hit me in the day time.


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## Geoff54 (Oct 30, 2011)

GeorgeB said:


> Isn't the COLREGS an international agreement?


 Yeah! I didn't understand that either. COLREGS is administered by the I.M.O. which is an agency of the U.N. It applies to all member countries of the U.N. and just about everybody else has agreed to comply as well.

There is an opinion that a single hander is unable to keep an adequate watch, as required by COLREGS. Smack is just try to stir it. I am absolutely not going to get embroiled in that one.


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## lapworth (Dec 19, 2008)

Hey Bubble hope spring races went well, sorry I only made two. Looks like you have a big thread here and don't have time to read it all but heres a little food for thought. You know I get out and do some fishing now and then. Well heres the one problem I saw when we did a practice sail near Thomas Point. I told you that a boat coming around Red had trolling lines out and your reply was " I don't give a [email protected] ". I have had good times sailing with you but that guy probable had at least a $100.00 worth of tackle your keel could rip away. Asi es la vida.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Geoff54 said:


> Yeah! I didn't understand that either. COLREGS is administered by the I.M.O. which is an agency of the U.N. It applies to all member countries of the U.N. and just about everybody else has agreed to comply as well.
> 
> There is an opinion that a single hander is unable to keep an adequate watch, as required by COLREGS. Smack is just try to stir it. I am absolutely not going to get embroiled in that one.


Heh-heh. There is no try. There is only do.










Just sayin'....

Rule 5 - Look-out

Proper look-out	
-	At all times
-	By sight
-	By hearing
-	By all available means appropriate


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

You guy's are obviously right about the colregs, I've been sailing back and forth by myself from central america since I was 19. I've never been hit or gotten a ticket for impropper watch keep. I stay out of the way, sleep in the day. I don't know why i said that about the states, I guess I was thinking about your race course right of way stuff. i'm constantly in school up-grading my lisences and I have my 200 ton, fast rescue, rfpnw, ab, radar cert, radio op, etc.I know the rules of the road and the international agreemants, some are commercial and don't apply to rec. boats some do. some are tonnage and nature of work. If see you guy's racing, i will tip my hat give the propper whistle and stay out of the way.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Don't worry Cap. I bet 50% of the sailors out there who do multi-day passages break rule 5. I know 100% of the singlehanders do.

It is interesting that it's overlooked - in cruising and in racing. But whaddayagonnado?


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

ya, I do my best to keep a watch and stay as visible in the day time. a lot of orange stuff. I'll be single handel'n till I'm to old to whipe my ass. Y'all remember that blind guy that sailed across the atlantic in the early 90's. What rules was he break'n?


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

*Right of Way ?*

Check out around 2.10 ..... 






Vid courtesy keepturningleft.co.uk


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## BentSailor (Nov 10, 2010)

Nice vid, tdw. Some manoeuvres in that which would be too close for my comfort, though I have seen some just as scary.

Had to take umbrage at the idea us _"Aussies & Yanks"_ couldn't come up with the idea of throwing in a fudge factor for handicap. I know the British like to think they're the source of all things reasonable, but that's just bollocks!


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## Geoff54 (Oct 30, 2011)

*Re: Right of Way ?*



tdw said:


> Check out around 2.10 .....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for that tdw, that's proper racing. It's been 30 years since I sailed out past Bateman's Tower. I'm going back for a visit later this year - I wonder if anyone I know will have a boat in the water.


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## centaursailor (Nov 7, 2010)

I enjoy single handed port hoping on the East Coast of Ireland but regularly share the water with sail boats in a hurry, I just give them the wind and keep out of their way.
Its my responsibility to keep myself and others safe on the water. 
The sea is the last bit of real freedom most of us have, lets not feck it up.

May the force be with you know who.

Safe sailing


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

BentSailor said:


> Nice vid, tdw. Some manoeuvres in that which would be too close for my comfort, though I have seen some just as scary.
> 
> Had to take umbrage at the idea us _"Aussies & Yanks"_ couldn't come up with the idea of throwing in a fudge factor for handicap. I know the British like to think they're the source of all things reasonable, but that's just bollocks!


Oh well the poor old poms ... have to humour them you know ... when you are this far down the intestinal tract of empire you need to hang on to past glories ... mind you the buggers do seem to have re learnt the art of playing cricket so maybe there is hope for them yet .... more than there is for Oz tennis anyway ....


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

*Re: Right of Way ?*



Geoff54 said:


> Thanks for that tdw, that's proper racing. It's been 30 years since I sailed out past Bateman's Tower. I'm going back for a visit later this year - I wonder if anyone I know will have a boat in the water.


Geoff ... you an Englishman in New York ? or thereabouts anyway.

If you don't know it have a look at the KTL site .... I dare say there is a dollop of homesickness in it for you.


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## Geoff54 (Oct 30, 2011)

*Re: Right of Way ?*



tdw said:


> Geoff ... you an Englishman in New York ? or thereabouts anyway.
> 
> If you don't know it have a look at the KTL site .... I dare say there is a dollop of homesickness in it for you.


Briefly in D.C., soon to be in Boston. I just spent the last hour or so watching KTL, he got a couple of "facts" wrong but then "he's not local, is he?". A lot of the gaffers in your clip are Essex smacks - those with "CK" on the hull are the old fishing and oyster fleet from Colchester, where I was born. This is my home now but I do sometimes miss the old dockside pubs, the classic boats and the characters who used to, and occasionally still do, sail them. Thanks again.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

smackdaddy said:


> As to the RRS superseding COLREGS that's exactly what I'm saying.


RRS _NEVER_ supersede the COLREGS or the Inland Rules. RRS apply only to racing boats and are lower precedence than civil rules.



smackdaddy said:


> From the _Juno SRL v. S/V Endeavour_ case:


Not relevant to a discussion of racers and non-racers in the same place.



smackdaddy said:


> The result of this, however, just as George points out above, is that there are absolutely different collision rules at play for the racers (RRS) than those under which the cruising sailor is operating _outside_ that course (COLREGS only).


Unless there is a LNTM (in the US) or equivalent elsewhere that officially (that means action by some government, NOT a yacht club or racing organization who has no authority to close off a section of water) the race course as an area has no legal basis.



smackdaddy said:


> Bingo - it is all about Rule 1. But, again, you guys' arguments keep putting all the onus on the racers.


Not at all. I think the point others are making and certainly the one that I'm making is that only the COLREGS or Inland Rules (depending on where one is relative to the demarkation line) is relevant to a the interaction of a racing boat and a boat that is not racing.



smackdaddy said:


> My point all along has been that it can easily be argued that the cruiser has _perhaps more_ onus on him to stay well clear of marked racing areas - _especially_ if he's not familiar with the RRS. And this is *precisely* because of Rule 1.


No. For starters there are no marked racing areas absent some very high profile events like America's Cup, VOR, and such that have government support and law enforcement patrols. All there are to be seen are the line and turning marks.

Secondly in many areas, including my home waters, one simply can't go sailing at all without crossing a race course. We all have to share the waters.

Last Wednesday night we crossed four race courses to get out of the Severn River and into Chesapeake Bay - there was no option. The choices were cross or stay at the dock.



smackdaddy said:


> Sure, you have all the rights in the world to sail into an area in which every other boat is operating under rules you don't understand - but how smart is that?


If that comment is aimed at me you have ignored my earlier statement that I have been an avid racer for just under 35 years. I know the rules. I also know which apply to me when I'm not racing, and which don't.



Maine Sail said:


> Last night we witnessed one of those "instances" of other boaters not being courteous and also being clueless.
> 
> On the upwind leg the boat in front of us, a J 105, was on a perfect course to make the mark but clearly pinching to do it. It was VERY CLEAR the 30+ boats were racing. The J105 was on starboard tack, all of a sudden I notice a Catalina 27 flying a genny on a port beam reach. She completely cut off the J105, threw them way off course, I think they should have t-boned the moron but the RACERS were courteous and gave way, FOLLOWING THE ULTIMATE COLREG RULE OF AVOID COLLISIONS. The "skipper" and I use that term very lightly, appeared shocked and dismayed as the J Boat crew was yelling STARBOARD as loud as they could....


Clearly the Catalina 27 was wrong. I suggest this wasn't a case of racing v. non-racing per se but of port and starboard under the COLREGS or Inland Rules as appropriate. You can interpret the events as you describe as the knowledgeable v. the ignorant. *sigh* Unfortunately stupid isn't illegal.



puddinlegs said:


> Been there and got the gear as well. Sure, big budget programs with significant time commitments, etc... Hell, you're a pro. I certainly hope the owner is reimbursing you for your work on the boat especially since your hauling around a rigger's van. I think we're talking more about a typical Phrf program. Hats, T's, sure. Follies? If I want everyone to match, then I'd better spring for it, but that'd be almost a new head sail worth crew gear... Sails win.


Foulies are above the pay grade of the boats I race on. I think at the end of the day it's less about the stuff than the appreciation the stuff represents.

When I volunteer to help work on a boat I race on I don't send a bill. It goes back to the relationship. On the other hand if I'm making a backhaul from the Keys to Essex we're going to talk about delivery fees. An easy Governor's Cup (Chesapeake Bay) backhaul I'd likely comp. It depends on the relationship.



GeorgeB said:


> Not sure I'd sail with a delivery skipper who purposely chooses inexperienced sailors. I kind of like to sleep knowing that my life is in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing. Besides, shouldn't you be using a lee cloth during ocean passages?


Generally agree. I do often take on one crew member on their first passage. I look at that as an investment in future crew availability.

For myself, I often sleep on the floor. You can't fall off the floor. Depends on the boat and staying out of the way but still being able to get topside quickly.

[


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## johnnyquest37 (Feb 16, 2012)

S/V Auspicious;

I'm with you. Used to do evening sails out of Annapolis and on Wednesday and Thursdays -- it is very difficult to get to the Bay without crossing a race course. It is considered a courtesy for non racers to keep clear of racers. If the non racing boat declines to provide that courtesy, then the all parties must adhere to the COLREGs. End of story. 

Regarding the wisdom of taking green sailors on passages: again, I agree with you for the most part. Many self identified "old hands" are either embued with bad habits (such as believing racers have the right of way) or are too set in their ways to adjust to the skipper's way of doing things. It is often better to have green crew onboard because I don't get a false sense of what thier qualifications are and they are often more willing to do things my way.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

All I'm a saying about green crew is, I'm the captain, I can do this better by my self than with a crew, If I have crew, the only skill they need is decent eye sight and a the ability to bring my attention to what they see. If I need other experienced people out there with me than I shouldn't be the captain. The racers I've sailed with push the limits of saftey for speed, I don't need them on board. Sailing is the easy part, keep the sails trimmed, my 10 year old niece is great at it. I sleep well Knowing it's day time and I am highly visable and reflective. Night time, I'm up, alive and on the look out. Most of my ship lane passage making is the straights of fla, and Yucatan channel, lot of traffic. As a tug boat captain, I know a lot of the freighter captain's, They won't hit us in the day time.


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## DrB (Mar 29, 2007)

johnnyquest37 said:


> S/V Auspicious;
> 
> I'm with you. Used to do evening sails out of Annapolis and on Wednesday and Thursdays -- it is very difficult to get to the Bay without crossing a race course. It is considered a courtesy for non racers to keep clear of racers. If the non racing boat declines to provide that courtesy, then the all parties must adhere to the COLREGs. End of story.


Agree with this 100%.

When on my boat, I try to stay clear of race courses when sailing. It is fairly easy here as most races are held a good few miles off shore away from the main sailing area. If I do have to cross a course, I really try to avoid the area where the boats are actively sailing. However, a few times I have had to sail through a race of dinghy's because they set the course in the middle of the channel. Always interesting when this happens.


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

SVAuspicious said:


> RRS _NEVER_ supersede the COLREGS or the Inland Rules. RRS apply only to racing boats and are lower precedence than civil rules.
> 
> Not relevant to a discussion of racers and non-racers in the same place.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't get too upset about what smack says about racing. With due respect, he's very new to the racing thing.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Let’s review the rules one more time. The RRS of sail are consistent with the COLREGS in regards to vessels under sail. COLREGS has a lot of additional rules governing other aspects of navigation that are not a normal part of racing. Likewise RRS provides for situations not encountered in normal navigation. Here are the COLREGS governing sailboats under sail:

12. Sailing vessels
Two sailing vessels approaching one another must give-way as follows: 
•	Port gives way to Starboard. When each has the wind on a different side, the vessel which has the wind to port must give way;
•	Windward gives way to leeward. When both have the wind on the same side, the vessel which is windward must give way to the vessel which is leeward;
•	Unsure port gives way. If a vessel, with the wind on the port side, sees a vessel to windward and cannot determine whether the other vessel has the wind on the port or the starboard side, they must give way.

13. Overtaking
An overtaking vessel must keep out of the way of the vessel being overtaken. 'Overtaking' means approaching another vessel at more than 22.5 degrees abaft her beam, i.e. so that at night, the overtaking vessel would see only the stern light and neither of the sidelights of the vessel being overtaken.



Here are the corresponding RRS:

10 ON OPPOSITE TACKS
When boats are on opposite tacks, a port-tack boat shall keep clear of a starboard-tack boat.

11 ON THE SAME TACK, OVERLAPPED
When boats are on the same tack and overlapped, a windward boat shall keep clear of a leeward boat.

12 ON THE SAME TACK, NOT OVERLAPPED
When boats are on the same tack and not overlapped, a boat clear astern shall keep clear of a boat clear ahead.

As you can see, they are essentially the same. The RRS are more precise as the rules get applied to situations not normally encountered in non-racing situations. Note that the COLREGS overtaking rule is for both boats under power and sail whereas for obvious reasons, the RRS are written specifically for boats under sail.

Pretty simple and destroys the myth that the RRS are some sort of alternate rules in conflict with COLREGS.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

port gives starboard 2.25 degrees rss vector pass on the over take colreg # 1-5 unless center channel course reg. # 3 blue bouy #3 ship to shore detect significant visabillity rail meat on a broad to running reach however stand on vessel or not itend 2 whistles only in fog may you while racing............. fun.


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## johnnyquest37 (Feb 16, 2012)

GeorgeB said:


> Let's review the rules one more time. The RRS of sail are consistent with the COLREGS in regards to vessels under sail.


I disagree that the racing rules are consistent with the COLREGs. I agree that they are for the most part, but there are significant differences. Rule 13 of the COLREGs (overtaking) for example, require the overtaking vessel to keep clear until "she is finally past and clear." (COLREG Rule 13, d.) In racing, the burden changes not when the overtaking vessel is past and clear, but once an overlap is established. (RRS Rule 11).

For the most part, yes, racing rules conform to standard COLREGs, but no where in either (as far as I know) does the right of way go to the racer over the non-racer. The point is, COLREGs govern crossing situations when any party involved is not racing.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

lapworth said:


> Hey Bubble hope spring races went well, sorry I only made two. Looks like you have a big thread here and don't have time to read it all but heres a little food for thought. You know I get out and do some fishing now and then. Well heres the one problem I saw when we did a practice sail near Thomas Point. I told you that a boat coming around Red had trolling lines out and *your reply was " I don't give a [email protected] ".* I have had good times sailing with you but that guy probable had at least a $100.00 worth of tackle your keel could rip away. Asi es la vida.


At that particular moment, weren't we having a serious malfunction with the spinnaker, and sheets wrapped around the rudder, with you hanging over the side trying to untangle them? Unable to start the outboard for fear of certainly fouling the prop?

I don't go out of my way to hassle fishing boats. The local boys that tow those submerged outriggers claim a 500 yard "no go" zone around them, and scream at anyone who dares enter their territory.

I'm very grateful to the fishing skippers that fly orange flags from their submerged outriggers, or at least paint them a dayglow orange so that we can see them when they break the surface of the water. I make a real effort to keep clear of them. The fishermen who don't, and expect people to see mono-filament line hanging in the air, are the ones I really lack sympathy for.

No, I don't love Chesapeake fishermen but I'd never blatantly run over their gear. If was I was negligent, I would replace it. Let's not forget that the fishermen have responsibilities too.

Let's save this discussion for the "Why all the angst between sailors and fishermen?" thread.


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## Geoff54 (Oct 30, 2011)

johnnyquest37 said:


> I disagree that the racing rules are consistent with the COLREGs. I agree that they are for the most part, but there are significant differences. Rule 13 of the COLREGs (overtaking) for example, require the overtaking vessel to keep clear until "she is finally past and clear." (COLREG Rule 13, d.) In racing, the burden changes not when the overtaking vessel is past and clear, but once an overlap is established. (RRS Rule 11).
> 
> For the most part, yes, racing rules conform to standard COLREGs, but no where in either (as far as I know) does the right of way go to the racer over the non-racer. The point is, COLREGs govern crossing situations when any party involved is not racing.


I have never read RSS but the point being made was that RSS and COLREGS are broadly the same with exceptions for specific circumstances, an example of which you quote.

If you want to split hairs, no one has "right of way" under COLREGS. There is a privileged or stand on vessel and a burdened or give way vessel. A stand on vessel does not have "right of way" however a burdened vessel does have a responsibility to give way.

Incidentally, Inland rules does give right of way under certain circumstances.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

johnnyquest37 said:


> I disagree that the racing rules are consistent with the COLREGs. I agree that they are for the most part, but there are significant differences. Rule 13 of the COLREGs (overtaking) for example, require the overtaking vessel to keep clear until "she is finally past and clear." (COLREG Rule 13, d.) In racing, the burden changes not when the overtaking vessel is past and clear, but once an overlap is established. (RRS Rule 11).
> 
> For the most part, yes, racing rules conform to standard COLREGs, but no where in either (as far as I know) does the right of way go to the racer over the non-racer. The point is, COLREGs govern crossing situations when any party involved is not racing.


Bingo - and this is the point I'm trying to make. I'm not trying to redefine or reinterpret the RRS _or_ the COLREGS. As you guys say, I'm no racing expert. And I'm no maritime expert.

But johnnyq just hit on it. One group of boats is operating under a different primary set of collision rules than the other. The _Juno SRL v. S/V Endeavour_ decision confirms this. Had the court upheld the COLREGS over the RRS, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Now, as you guys are saying, this means nothing for the racers. Nothing at all has changed. Racers will continue to adhere to "both sets" of rules...and they'll drive around both stand-on and wayward cruising boats...some of them cursing.

But it _does_ have potential implications for _non-racing boats_ (or cruisers, etc.) that sail onto an active course and have or cause a collision.

I'm simply saying there's a legal argument that can be made here _against a cruising boat_ that crosses that line.

Would it prevail? Who knows. But the door is definitely open.

(BTW - There was a big dust up over at SA a couple years ago with Mr. Clean and the BYC at the 2010 Mack race. The starting area was restricted and being patrolled by the CG Aux. Clean didn't have press credentials, but jumped into a borrowed a boat and moved into the starting box to broadcast his stuff and photograph the boats. He was approached and run out of the area by the CG Aux. He screamed about his First Amendment rights for weeks. To no avail. So, yes, courses can very well be closed to non-racing traffic.)


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

You know there's a lot of hand ringing going on about situations that happen only infrequently, no?


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

puddinlegs said:


> You know there's a lot of hand ringing going on about situations that happen only infrequently, no?


Heh-heh. Those are the best kind!

Actually, the only reason I became interested in this angle was because of Geoff's statement from the cruiser's perspective about the "rights to the water". I think this is probably a pretty common refrain.

Sure, it'll probably never happen. But in light of that court decision, us cruisers should definitely think about those rights a bit more before we head into a racing area. It's not as simple as it seems.

Okay - I'll leave it now.

Carry on you bastards.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

BubbleheadMd said:


> At that particular moment, weren't we having a serious malfunction with the spinnaker, and sheets wrapped around the rudder, with you hanging over the side trying to untangle them? Unable to start the outboard for fear of certainly fouling the prop?
> 
> I don't go out of my way to hassle fishing boats. The local boys that tow those submerged outriggers claim a 500 yard "no go" zone around them, and scream at anyone who dares enter their territory.
> 
> ...


Jeez - what a meanie!


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## Geoff54 (Oct 30, 2011)

smackdaddy said:


> Bingo - and this is the point I'm trying to make. I'm not trying to redefine or reinterpret the RRS _or_ the COLREGS. As you guys say, I'm no racing expert. And I'm no maritime expert.
> 
> But johnnyq just hit on it. One group of boats is operating under a different primary set of collision rules than the other. The _Juno SRL v. S/V Endeavour_ decision confirms this. Had the court upheld the COLREGS over the RRS, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
> 
> ...


OK I guess I can't leave it alone after all - I need to change my notifications!

Smack, you keep quoting Juno SRL v. S/V Endeavour as your justification.

You kindly pointed us to the record of the final appeal where it quotes...
"*10 As to third parties, of course, the COLREGS fully regulate normal maritime traffic vis-a-vis private races*."

Just in case there is any doubt "vis-a-vis" is literally "face to face" or more commonly in English "in relation to".

So directly from your justification for arguing the opposite, *As to third parties, of course, the COLREGS fully regulate normal maritime traffic in relation to private races*

I know nothing of your incident at the Mack race and have neither the time nor energy to research it. I will stir things by saying that those with authority have been know to step beyond it's bounds.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

smackdaddy said:


> But johnnyq just hit on it. One group of boats is operating under a different primary set of collision rules than the other. The _Juno SRL v. S/V Endeavour_ decision confirms this. Had the court upheld the COLREGS over the RRS, we wouldn't be having this discussion.


Well that one pushed me 'round the bend. Why do you continue to cite a racer v. racer case as relevant to racer v. non-racer scenarios?



smackdaddy said:


> I'm simply saying there's a legal argument that can be made here _against a cruising boat_ that crosses that line.


Okey dokey. You're just making this stuff up to try and wind people up, right?

I'm happy to share what I know and get excited when I learn something new, but apparently that isn't happening here.

I'll just wander off and do something useful instead.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Sorry dude, I've left it already. All I can say is read *the decision*.

It all centers on the question of whether the cruising sailor wants to sail through a race course where different collision rules are at play. From the Opinion:



> The history of the COLREGS shows that they were enacted because of the need to establish a code of international rules of the road for maritime traffic throughout the world. See H.R. Rep. No. 447, 95th Cong., 1st Sess. 1977, reprinted in 1977 U.S.C.C.A.N. 509. However, nothing in their history, or in the public policy issues that led to their enactment, indicates that they were meant to regulate voluntary private sports activity in which the participants have waived their application and in which no interference with nonparticipating maritime traffic is implicated. *Therefore, by entering a regatta with sailing instructions which unambiguously set forth special, binding "rules of the road," the participants waive conflicting COLREGS and must sail in accordance with the agreed-upon rules.*


Now I know this paragraph alone brings up a whole host of discussion points. And like I said, I've left it. But, all along, I've simply held that there is definitely room for legal argument if a non-racing boat enters an active racing course and either has or causes a collision. Nothing more than that.


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## Geoff54 (Oct 30, 2011)

smackdaddy said:


> Sorry dude, I've left it already. All I can say is read *the decision*.
> 
> It all centers on the question of whether the cruising sailor wants to sail through a race course where different collision rules are at play. From the Opinion:
> 
> Now I know this paragraph alone brings up a whole host of discussion points. And like I said, I've left it. But, all along, I've simply held that there is definitely room for legal argument if a non-racing boat enters an active racing course and either has or causes a collision. Nothing more than that.


From your quote "in which no interference with nonparticipating maritime traffic is implicated" i.e. (id est - that is) those rules apply when there is no interference with nonparticipating traffic.

I'm going to stop banging my head against the wall, it hurts too much.:hammer


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## Geoff54 (Oct 30, 2011)

I'd also like to change my position slightly. I will now avoid racers with the exception of smack.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Geoff54 said:


> From your quote "in which no interference with nonparticipating maritime traffic is implicated" i.e. (id est - that is) those rules apply when there is no interference with nonparticipating traffic.
> 
> I'm going to stop banging my head against the wall, it hurts too much.:hammer


Thanks for the Hebrew lesson. Heh-heh.

Like I said, a whole host of discussion points. There are many ways to skin that cat.

But I'm cool with the cessation of headbanging.

What's the Biggest Freakin' Sail you ever had dude?


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## BentSailor (Nov 10, 2010)

Sailing through an area is not the same as _entering a regatta_, smack. You're speculating that a court _might_ give some weight to racers using different rules and a cruiser entering the racing area causing an accident; but the only *real* case you are using to support that is between racers - not between a racer and a cruiser. From your decision:


> The first issue is what weight private rules and procedures should have in determining the liability of sailing vessels that collide *while engaged in the sport of yacht racing.* The second issue is what forum shall assess the damages that result from such circumstances.


The decision explicitly covers only the case of two boats colliding whilst racing. A cruiser is not necessarily engaged in the sport of yacht racing just by being in the same area. As such, to date in this thread, there is only your speculation for support - no legislation or case law.

Could a judge decide to overturn decades of precedent & legislation on the matter? Possibly. Then again, it's _possible_ that tomorrow we'll hear about a guy that invented a flying car that runs on cheese sauce. 

I like your doggedness, smack, but I'm not seeing much fact supporting your speculation and that's perhaps a bad thing in a thread asking why people might not like/respect racers :laugher


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

BentSailor said:


> Sailing through an area is not the same as _entering a regatta_, smack. You're speculating that a court _might_ give some weight to racers using different rules and a cruiser entering the racing area causing an accident; but the only *real* case you are using to support that is between racers - not between a racer and a cruiser. From your decision:
> The decision explicitly covers only the case of two boats colliding whilst racing. A cruiser is not necessarily engaged in the sport of yacht racing just by being in the same area. As such, to date in this thread, there is only your speculation for support - no legislation or case law.
> 
> Could a judge decide to overturn decades of precedent & legislation on the matter? Possibly. Then again, it's _possible_ that tomorrow we'll hear about a guy that invented a flying car that runs on cheese sauce.
> ...


C'mon dude, a basic right of racing is being able to argue endlessly about rules!

I know that the court decision is racer vs. racer. And I know I'm on somewhat shaky ground - but that's never bothered me before, so why let it now?

Look, there are three things that make this cruiser spawned collision scenario potentially actionable:

1. The cruiser chooses to enter a visibly marked course.
2. The cruiser is ignorant of the rules of that race that _may_ conflict with the COLREGS (as in the case above).
3. The cruiser's boat is not immediately distinguishable from the boats that are racing.

So, the cruiser enters the course, the racers don't know that boat's not racing, a collision occurs near a mark because the cruiser doesn't follow the RRS - who's fault is it?

The big offshore race I did last fall we had 186 boats of all makes and models milling around at the start just off the ship channel. And there were other non-racing sailboats and motorboats moving through on their way out to sea. That's a hell of a lot going on.

This is not, by any means, an inconceivable scenario.

Now about that cheese sauce car...


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## BentSailor (Nov 10, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> So, the cruiser enters the course, the racers don't know that boat's not racing, a collision occurs near a mark because the cruiser doesn't follow the RRS - who's fault is it?


Provided the cruiser was following COLREGS - it'll be the racer. At least, according to established precedent and current legislation. As the cruiser has not agreed to a different set of rules, there is no contractual obligation on their part to abide by any other set of rules with the racer. Even your linked decision states that.

See, if you had only asked me the question earlier - you could have avoided pages of back & forth with Geoff54


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

BentSailor said:


> Provided the cruiser was following COLREGS - it'll be the racer. At least, according to established precedent and current legislation. As the cruiser has not agreed to a different set of rules, there is no contractual obligation on their part to abide by any other set of rules with the racer. Even your linked decision states that.
> 
> See, if you had only asked me the question earlier - you could have avoided pages of back & forth with Geoff54


Damn! And it all seemed so perfect! I'm wrong!

No, seriously, I completely concede your point on the contractual obligation. You're right. But I do think the waters get very muddy on this issue when there is a visibly marked course with its "own rules". There is absolutely room to argue liability and/or negligence in this scenario if a cruiser knowingly enters that course during a race.


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## Geoff54 (Oct 30, 2011)

smackdaddy said:


> Thanks for the Hebrew lesson. Heh-heh.
> 
> Like I said, a whole host of discussion points. There are many ways to skin that cat.
> 
> ...


Oh, probably the time, moored in Two Harbors, when a really nasty squall blew through and I spilled my wine.

Gotta go, I have a plane to catch. A friend has told me that I'm expected aboard tomorrow and that I'd better bring the after dinner drinks. Now I'm definitely the Give Way party there - nice sail, nice company and even less stress than usual because I'm not in charge. And the only competition will be who can tell the worst joke.

BTW Smack, has it occurred to you that no one agrees with your position. You stand alone, dude!

May your keel bolts never rust.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Geoff54 said:


> BTW Smack, has it occurred to you that no one agrees with your position. You stand alone, dude!


Like I said, that's never bothered me in the least. I have a pretty good track record of being somewhat right. Heh-heh.

Have a great trip dude.


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## jaschrumpf (Jun 22, 2002)

smackdaddy said:


> Damn! And it all seemed so perfect! I'm wrong!
> 
> No, seriously, I completely concede your point on the contractual obligation. You're right. But I do think the waters get very muddy on this issue when there is a visibly marked course with its "own rules". There is absolutely room to argue liability and/or negligence in this scenario if a cruiser knowingly enters that course during a race.


See, to me, a "visibly marked course" on a public waterway is no different than a group of drag racers who've marked off a quarter-mile on the Interstate and then get upset because a family on vacation in a mini-van has spoilt their start.

I am always careful to try not to interfere with racers in their pursuit of micro-sail-management, knowing how control freaks get when interfered with. But by God, if I have the right of way and it's not granted by a Wednesday evening fun racer while I'm on my law-abiding way, they are going to hear about it. It's only as should be.


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

Rule of the road rules regardless.I'm 22 tons at 6 knots and some smart ass racer cutting under my bowsprit doesn't impress me much.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Capt Len said:


> Rule of the road rules regardless.I'm 22 tons at 6 knots and some smart ass racer cutting under my bowsprit doesn't impress me much.


Pics!

I gotta see a 22 tonner with a bowsprit.

(And you're right. You win.)


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

Eyes the bye what built the boat and you can see Thane on my profile Capt Len .


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Capt Len said:


> Eyes the bye what built the boat and you can see Thane on my profile Capt Len .


Holy crap!!! That thing is awesome!


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## BentSailor (Nov 10, 2010)

I agree - that is one beautiful ship. Yes, I think she deserves the description "ship" rather than just "boat", she has the majesty for it I think 

Now, to get back on topic, I would dearly love to watch the race that would have her in it!


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

Capt Len said:


> Rule of the road rules regardless.I'm 22 tons at 6 knots and some smart ass racer cutting under my bowsprit doesn't impress me much.


Yeah, you win...


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

BentSailor said:


> I agree - that is one beautiful ship. Yes, I think she deserves the description "ship" rather than just "boat", she has the majesty for it I think
> 
> Now, to get back on topic, I would dearly love to watch the race that would have her in it!


He 's free to enter anything phrf. He could get a provisional rating no problem. Swiftsure to the lightship would be good!


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

jaschrumpf said:


> *I am always careful to try not to interfere with racers in their pursuit of micro-sail-management, knowing how control freaks get when interfered with. * But by God, if I have the right of way and it's not granted by a Wednesday evening fun racer while I'm on my law-abiding way, they are going to hear about it. It's only as should be.


This is exactly what the thread is about. How about "lazy ass drunk cruisers who don't give a damn if they're flogging their sails into submission." I'll remind you we both cruise and race, so I'm being rhetorical.

So in your view, all racers are micro sail managing comtrol freaks... I'm guessing you've never raced, or have had poor experiences when you have. Sometimes very experienced cruisers get on well,sailed race boats and are very surprised what they learn about that last 10-20% of sail trim that makes a boat fast. Some are open to learning, other have egos too fragile to admit that they might not be quite the sail trim expert they thought they were. I've seen both types.
Which are you?


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

jaschrumpf said:


> See, to me, a "visibly marked course" on a public waterway is no different than a group of drag racers who've marked off a quarter-mile on the Interstate and then get upset because a family on vacation in a mini-van has spoilt their start.
> 
> I am always careful to try not to interfere with racers in their pursuit of micro-sail-management, knowing how control freaks get when interfered with. But by God, if I have the right of way and it's not granted by a Wednesday evening fun racer while I'm on my law-abiding way, they are going to hear about it. It's only as should be.


Jas is one of the very people whom in the past couple of years has made rather denigrating comments about racers, and I see that he's come here to share his view. He's also local to me. I've had other conversations with him, and I actually think he's an OK guy, he's just looking through a distorted lens. Perhaps with a little civil discussion, we can correct his perception.

Jaschrumpf-

Let's correct some things:

It has been said *several times* on this forum and in other threads, that *no one* has "right of way". There is a privileged vessel and a stand-on vessel (or burdened vessel if you prefer). Ultimately, both vessels have the responsibility to avoid a collision.

Next, how many times have I said in this thread, that the RRS does not override the Rules of the Road? I have repeatedly said, that in a navigable waterway, where COLREGS are in force, that racers have the responsibility to sail according to those rules, while also adhering to their racing rules.

That means that if you sail through my race course, and you are the privileged vessel, I will obey the COLREGS over the RRS and take the proper action to avoid you, and give you the space that you are entitled to under the regs. I might wait a few moments to see if you're going afford me a little courtesy, or if you're going to demand your rights and make me manuver to avoid you.

In case you're not getting it yet, I AGREE WITH YOU for the most part.

But perhaps you should stop painting all racers with this rather broad brush.
Have you ever caught a ride on a racing boat, even as an observer to really understand what's going on, or is this your observation from afar?
Were you yelled at by a racing skipper at some time in the past?

Let's talk about you getting what you deserve, while you're on your "law-abiding" way:

Yes my friend, you can be legally correct while still driving like a total jerk.
Are you the guy who hates racers so much, that he tacks onto starboard right in someone's face, expressly to claim "right of way"?

Have you ever considered, that although you have legal rights, that it might be courteous to duck under the stern of a racer instead of cutting him off?

Dude, we're not all prima-donnas who think we own the water. We're not all screamers and pointers. We're not all control freaks with the latest carbon sled and laminate racing sails.

I'm not really racing for the pickle dish. This year, my goal is to learn what it's like to start up and run a racing program. Recruitment, training, tactics, provisioning, navigation, sail selection, sail trim, teamwork. How to all of that, and still have FUN. I've brought 12 total newbs into the sailing and they LOVE it. I'm growing the sport. What are you doing for sailing?

I challenge you to spend a Wednesday night on my boat, as an observer or crew, to see if I and my crew, fall into the stereotype that you've been painting the last few years.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Capt Len said:


> Rule of the road rules regardless.I'm 22 tons at 6 knots and some smart ass racer cutting under my bowsprit doesn't impress me much.


You know, this post and a couple of things that Jascrumph has said to me in the past, lead me to believe that there is a simple "perceptual" difference that causes a lot of this friction.

I have noticed that dedicated cruisers have a much larger "personal space" or bubble, around their boats. When another vessel enters that space, they feel at risk, and uncomfortable.

Racers, who are acclimated to crowded starting lines, and making abrupt maneuvers, have a much smaller personal space.

So to Jas, or Len, when a racer gets close to him, he perceives recklessness, where the racer feels that he has plenty of time and space to maneuver.

I'm not saying either person is wrong, I'm just saying that I think this is where some of the frustration comes from.


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

I don't want to leave the impression that I sail through a race with my elbows out. My portly vessel tries to position to avoid it being an issue at all.and will even run away by engine.to achieve this. We've all experienced situations that leave you just shaking your head in wonder and my earlier reference was to one of those.


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

Why focus on the one exception rather than the rule? 'Stupid' knows no boundary. Let's not paint everyone with the same brush Len.

Again, it seems several have had an incident that colo(u)rs their perception of the entire thing. This is a problem that's by no means limited to just sailing.


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

Coming in a little late on this one. We sailed out of Sausalito on SF Bay for 10 years. My take on racers, based on observations on the water, was that many of them were extremely aggressive with an attitude of "if you get in my way I will cut you in half". We purposely stayed as far away from the courses as we could, even if it inconvenienced us.
Also, having read articles of people doing dangerous things that were considered OK because they were "racing" adds to my opinion of some of them.

FWIW, Paul T


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

dabnis said:


> Also, having read articles of people doing dangerous things that were considered OK because they were "racing" adds to my opinion of some of them.


Actually, I think this is the real source of the conflict. For the most part, racing is very counter to most people's view of "prudent seamanship".


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

Sorry you feel that way Paul. A ride crewing or two would most likely change many of your perceptions. I raced in SF Bay a bunch when I lived there and will say that in my experience, no one has any interest in hitting anyone... except the J-24 and J-105 fleets... just kidding. 

Aggressive? Is there such a thing as 'casual' chess? 

OK, have to go finish up the lazy jacks.


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

puddinlegs said:


> Sorry you feel that way Paul. A ride crewing or two would most likely change many of your perceptions. I raced in SF Bay a bunch when I lived there and will say that in my experience, no one has any interest in hitting anyone... except the J-24 and J-105 fleets... just kidding.
> 
> Aggressive? Is there such a thing as 'casual' chess?
> 
> OK, have to go finish up the lazy jacks.


Point taken, my description was theoretical, I doubt that a racer would like to scratch his boat I raced off road motorcycles for many years on controlled courses away from the "general public" for safety and user conflict reasons. It is just my opinion that racers feel that the areas they race in are "their" areas not to be tresspassed on by non-racers.

Again, FWIW, Bubblehead asked, Paul T


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## n0w0rries (May 17, 2009)

I'm a cruiser that started racing to learn how to sail better.

A few observations:
1) Racing rules say avoid a collision at all costs, so all those arguments about colregs conflicting with racing rules are BS.
2) Most racers have more money in their boats then other boaters. They also typically show more pride of ownership. They don't want to damage their boat because you're in the way.
3) A lot of cruisers think racers are reckless when they sail too close to them. If they are racing they probably have more crew then you do, can maneuver their boat easier, and those 3 feet they had to spare from missing your bow or stern would be the same as 30 feet to you.
4) Yes some racers are a-holes, but you could say that about all boaters, or even just people. But if you have the right-of-way, and taking it interferes with a race, and you're not in any danger or hurry, then I'd say you are one of those a-holes. Would you walk across the street in the middle of a marathon, just because you can, and don't really care if you mess up somebody's stride or pace or whatever.


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

Snappin molluscs Batman, If I were dipping my paint brush I'd have used a ground sheet. I referred to a planing dingy gybing literally under my bowsprit while yelling at me to get out of the way. Wind on my starb'd quarter and am overtaken in Juan de Fuca. However ,nobody is perfect and I apologize to my fellow boaters for any indiscretions I may have made or will make. If you still feel splattered, suck it up.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

n0w0rries said:


> I'm a cruiser that started racing to learn how to sail better.
> 
> A few observations:
> 1) Racing rules say avoid a collision at all costs, so all those arguments about colregs conflicting with racing rules are BS.


Siiigggghhh. You can say that all you want, but, for the racers, this is the law...



> Therefore, by entering a regatta with sailing instructions which unambiguously set forth special, binding "rules of the road," *the participants waive conflicting COLREGS and must sail in accordance with the agreed-upon rules.*


You're absolutely right that any argument that says RRS generally _conflict_ with COLREGS is BS. They don't. But _where_ and _if_ they do, they supersede/take precedent over/etc. the COLREGS _for the racers on that course_.

People might not like the thought of that - but it's law. Therefore, the collision rules on that course are different than the rules outside that course.

For this reason, all I've said is that a cruiser knowingly entering that course, especially if it's difficult to distinguish your boat from the racing boats, is assuming additional risk.

Just sayin'.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

Page 22. amazing. I just took a barge full Of Black oil across Biscayne Bay and right thru a coulpe of saturday races. I could'nt help thinking of this thread. Of course, I have the right of way as designed by the nature of my work, controlled by my draft and, it's a national park so I need to stay on the same line as not to effect the bottom too much, I saw cruisers headiing to the Key's, they paid no attention to the racers, I saw skiffs and jet ski's, Kayakers and kite surfers, trawlers, sport and commercial fisherman, all crossing the course. i saw racers jibbing and tacking, one dude used my passing by to his advandage by taking my stern. I did'nt see any collisions. It seemed to me if I had, it would have been the dudes racing around in all that confusions fault..... Just say'n...... But If I hit some one it would of definatly been my fault, it alway's is.


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

smackdaddy said:


> Siiigggghhh. You can say that all you want, but, for the racers, this is the law...
> 
> You're absolutely right that any argument that says RRS generally _conflict_ with COLREGS is BS. They don't. But _where_ and _if_ they do, they supersede/take precedent over/etc. the COLREGS _for the racers on that course_.
> 
> ...


I can only speak from my own experience, a long time ago we were sailing off of Crissy Field (SF Bay), Big wind coming through the slot, big edd tide. Before we realized it we were being pinned towards the shore by a racing fleet. Rather than running with them or against them we had no choice but to cross the course to keep from being driven ashore. We waited for a gap and ran for it. To the best of my knowledge none of the racers had to change course or tack. 
However we were screamed at: "we are racing, get off the course". Kind of sticks in your mind.

Paul T


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

dabnis said:


> I can only speak from my own experience, a long time ago we were sailing off of Crissy Field (SF Bay), Big wind coming through the slot, big edd tide. Before we realized it we were being pinned towards the shore by a racing fleet. Rather than running with them or against them we had no choice but to cross the course to keep from being driven ashore. We waited for a gap and ran for it. To the best of my knowledge none of the racers had to change course or tack.
> However we were screamed at: "we are racing, get off the course". Kind of sticks in your mind.
> 
> Paul T


Did you yell back," SO...I'M SAILING THAT A'WAY..... GET OUT OF MY WAY... YOU DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT OF WAY." actually the vessel being over taken has the rigth of way. I was sailing at sun set in KeyWest harbour. the coast scout's where tootling along in front of me in the orange de-flatable, at the last second as i was just about too pass them, they turned hard to port and cut me off, causing me to head up and stall. I yelled" what gives i have the right of way," ( because I'm sailing right? wrong.) the vesel being over taken has the right of way, as they told me. Regardless of propulsion. You where being over taken by the racers, you had the right to change course to avoid grounding.


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## ccriders (Jul 8, 2006)

Yea, wow 22 pages. A few observations:
Sail racing: the best of times - the worst of times.
There is a big difference between full on professional racing and amatuer racing. Amatuers probably care more about their sport.
The ability to campaign a professionally staffed first class racing sled is directly proportional to the size of ones ah... portfolio. 
The desire to crew on such a boat is inversly proportional to ones age.
Oh and angst. It is proportional to the number of boats wishing to occupy the same few feet of water at the same time.
Assholes - we all have them, some are better than others at keeping theirs under wraps.
There is a big difference between entering a race and crossing a race course.
There is an equally big difference between crossing a race course and sailing into a racing fleet. 
A pack of J-24s all sailing in the same direction close together is surely a racing fleet on a race course. A mixed bag of PHRF boats strung out on several points of sail might also be a fleet, but not so easy to dentify. A bunch of spinnakers coming at you, yea that's probably a race fleet. 
Restricted sailing area like a channel into the harbor should not have any race bouys placed there. 
Many amatuer captains are sailing their water front cabin with friends as much as their race boat. How else could they get their wives to agree to buy the boat? But there are exceptions.
Sail racing spawned virtually all of the technological developments that we enjoy in our cruiser/racer/cruiser and someday cruisers will enjoy the benefits of carbon fiber, kevlar, titanium, etc.
Most boats don't sail at all.
Some people love to be and want to be out on the water and for them, it's all good. 
John


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

Capt.aaron said:


> Did you yell back," SO...I'M SAILING THAT A'WAY..... GET OUT OF MY WAY... YOU DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT OF WAY." actually the vessel being over taken has the rigth of way. I was sailing at sun set in KeyWest harbour. the coast scout's where tootling along in front of me in the orange de-flatable, at the last second as i was just about too pass them, they turned hard to port and cut me off, causing me to head up and stall. I yelled" what gives i have the right of way," ( because I'm sailing right? wrong.) the vesel being over taken has the right of way, as they told me. Regardless of propusion. You where being over taken by the racers, you had the right to change course to avoid grounding.


Right, all we were trying to do was to get out of "their" way. Kind of hard to "hold your ground" with 30 boats bearing down on you being pushed by a big tide. I have seen other instances on the Bay where some inocent bystander
gets screamed at: "starbord, starbord" and "racing, racing". Likely not all racers are as aggressive or rude as others but it only takes a few to make a negative impression. Bubblehead, aren't you glad you asked? 

Paul T


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

I would never cross a marathon just to get to the other side of the street. I would cross sail race course to get to the other side of a channel. In key west they put the course out in no mans land, easy to avoid. I will say that I have learned a lot about how I feel about racers on this thread, and as I crossed the course today in my tug and barge, a whole new respect for them.


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## ovb (Feb 15, 2012)

We have a thing like this brewing on the lake where I sail....I am a Thursday night racer with the club races but I still day sail and casual sail as much as I can....the cruisers regard the racers as mouth breathing, pompus A-holes and the racers are trying to interest the cruisers into racing their boats with non flying sails classes and such....but no positive results yet....Does your club have any non-racing events ? and if so what are they?....


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Something that needs to be pointed out, as per a friend of mine that got into a collision or equal something or other on the water. It ended up in court. Not your typical legal/civil court, BUT "Maritime Court" with a "Maritime Judge/jury etc" At the end of the day, it is not alike a car accident or equal, where someone will pay 100% of the costs! The Judge will decide the % that the parties are at fault! So even if you are the stand vessel, you may end up paying 10-30+% of the million dollar issue, if both boats go down, along with environmental damages. Yeah the other party in an auto collision might be at fault, but if you did not do "EVERYTHING" in you power to avoid the collision etc, even as the stand on vessel, you will be found at fault for a % of the damages to be paid out!

So with this in mind.....enjoy the rest of the day!

marty


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

Went back and read some earlier posts and it reminded me that unless someone else doesn't think the same way as you do they are wrong. Some examples, generally speaking:

1. Fly fishermen don't like bait fishermen
2. Catch and release fishermen don't like "meat" fishermen
3. Fishermen don't like water skiers and jet skiers
4. Sailboaters don't like power boaters
5. Hikers don't like mountain bike riders
6. Sailboat racers don't like anyone on "their" course
7. Wilderness users don't want anyone else on the wilderness except them

And the list goes on. Bubblehead asked the question, interesting discussion, but will probably not change anyone's mind about anything.

Paul T


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

Ya, skiers don't like snow borders, and every one hates jet ski's. I went on an emotional roller coaster on this thread. At the end I realize it's not the racer I don't like. I just don't like pompus, un-enlightened, daddy's money, tennis elbow, Yachet cloob, dandy's, named chauncy and theodore beuregard soopleton the III 'rd. Like that B.P. CO who "just wanted his life back!" It just so happens that a lot of those dudes race. Not all of them, I have trust-a-farian friends who are totally cool and race and I love them, and guy's Like marblehead, I can tell are totally cool dudes, I like his style and the stuff he say's and I ventured on to race net to check out his stuff, he's cool, but we all Know the type I'm talking about. And the ones that are that type are usually too ignorant or self absorbed to know they are so I'm sure I haven't offended.


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

Ah memories, There I was at the oso pretentious yacht club in Frisco along side Disney's fab racer. I was delivering a cruising motorsailer for old eastern money. Hanging at the bar ,counting coins for a drink while white polo shirted crew signed Bob's name to the chit. Suddenly it dawned on me that there was not a lot of common ground so I went back to sea.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

I was at a cruisers marina in Jamaica and some old salt pulled in on a salty looking sloop ."HI, cool boat" I said, where did you come in from?" 
"THE SEA." was all he said.
"oh, where ya headed?"
"BACK TO SEA"
I liked that dude. No B.S or pretense.


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

Capt Len said:


> Ah memories, There I was at the oso pretentious yacht club in Frisco along side Disney's fab racer. I was delivering a cruising motorsailer for old eastern money. Hanging at the bar ,counting coins for a drink while white polo shirted crew signed Bob's name to the chit. Suddenly it dawned on me that there was not a lot of common ground so I went back to sea.


Never had the pleasure of sailing with Mr. D, but by all accounts of anyone who has, he was a very stand up and darn nice guy. I think I know which club you're refering to... I lived in E.Oakland at the time when I was sailing on a large boat who's owner was a prominent member. The guy I sailed with had a lot of money, but he had earned it, fought in N.Africa in WWII, the whole deal. Nice and very fair guy. In general, that whole seen wasn't my reality, but it was interesting to play pick up ball in the neighborhood one afternoon, then talk to folks at that particular club after a race. I considered it part of life's opportunity to learn to talk to very different people about things and thoughts I would never had access to if I had simply turned around and walked out.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

Capt Len said:


> Ah memories, There I was at the oso pretentious yacht club in Frisco along side Disney's fab racer. I was delivering a cruising motorsailer for old eastern money. Hanging at the bar ,counting coins for a drink while white polo shirted crew signed Bob's name to the chit. Suddenly it dawned on me that there was not a lot of common ground so I went back to sea.


So in other words, Hob Knobbing with people who lacked adversity and therefore Character was a bore, and the Sea beckoned.

Those old dudes with money that made it the old fashion way are great to hang with, it's their off spring that are a bore.

Of course, those old dude's that worked for what they have are usually slumming it with the likes of me down at the pub complaining about their pompus little brats.


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

...


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

Capt.aaron said:


> So in other words, Hob Knobbing with people who lacked adversity and therefore Character was a bore, and the Sea beckoned.
> 
> Those old dudes with money that made it the old fashion way are great to hang with, it's their off spring that are a bore.
> 
> Of course, those old dude's that worked for what they have are usually slumming it with the likes of me down at the pub complaining about their pompus little brats.


I'm not one to stand up for 'pompous brats', but painting everything and everyone who may not superficially appear to share your values is as narrow minded as the worst of those 'brats' who you profess to share nothing in common. Too bad really. Books, covers... we can really never know another man until we've spent some time talking with and listening to them. All people know adversity. How it's dealt with is what defines character. Some have it, some don't. I'm not yet convinced that it has a lot to do with one's pocket book.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

puddinlegs said:


> I'm not one to stand up for 'pompous brats', but painting everything and everyone who may not superficially appear to share your values is as narrow mi


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

It all has to do with EARNING a living. Many of the yacht club types, born with silver spoons in their mouths, who have never wondered how they will pay the telephone bill or the mortgage, whose educations have been paid for through revocable trusts, and whose grossly overpaid jobs are the result of nepotism, are so shallow as to believe they have done something to deserve such pure dumb luck. I know such people. They do not appreciate that it is mainly fate that they were born into a privileged time and place. They do not realize that in the big crap shoot of existence, they could just as well have been born a poor Bangladeshi. They generally have little humbleness or empathy but lots of ego. They often have the audacity to look down on the folks that really do the heavy lifting. There is a lot more wisdom to be found in other classes of people.


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

smurph, there are indeed yacht clubs, golf clubs, hell, even bridge clubs that are by and for the 1%. Our club is well known in the region and bears no resemblance at all to your stereo types. We run both races and cruising events. We raise money for the local food bank and for breast cancer. We're working on partnering with a local state park island to do maintenance for them. We were able to get a 'crew circle' painted on the end of the public marina peer to give people the opportunity to get race rides without having to walk the docks. The biggest boat in our 'A' fleet is 40'. The average size in the club is probably around 27' all said and done. Our 'club house' is a bar. We've got a couple of class national champions that are members, and others who have cruised extensively all over the world. If you come to a club event or party, you'll be surprised that most are in flip flops, fleece, and that the average age is probably around 30-32 as well. 

The 'many yacht club types' aren't the 'many' in this area of the country at all. Maybe CA and the east coast are different. I know in the Bay Area there are clubs that I've been in but would have no interest in being a member. On the other had, there are a couple that are outstanding. Great sailors and great folks. I'm willing to be that you, capt. Aaron and Len would feel right at home at our bar, or the 2 clubs I'm thinking about down around SF Bay. The sad thing is internet forums are like electronic road rage (to paraphrase Meat Loaf). It's painfully clear that several here have no interest in trying to see the world from a slightly more tolerant, curious, and interested point of view. I think it's time for me to take a long break from sailnet. What's posted here just doesn't jibe with what I experience in our area at all. All I can say is I'm genuinely sorry that so many of you have to share the water with so many miserable people.


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

What a firebrand of a thread BubbleHeadMD!

I have raced my old Tartan 27' now for about six years on the Hudson River where there is significant tug and barge traffic. We are always on the lookout for those guys and the first to spot an approaching tug will usually announce it to the racing fleet or the RC will. 

In a recent race I was unsure if we were going to outrun an upriver barge but we held on and did pass within about 200 yards. We did get the tug captain to give us 5 blasts and I was thinking that I never would have engaged in such risky behavior if we were not racing. I'm pretty sure we pissed off the skipper of the tug but I would not have done that if my wife had been aboard. 

Racing does promote a kind of "balls to the wall" attitude with safety sometimes taking a back seat. Safety has to be the #1 priority, even when racing.


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

5 toots gets you tossed from a race here. The sponsoring club then gets and earful from the CG.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

Puddinlegs, I'm glad to hear that your club is so philanthropic and I would gladly have a beer with you guy's. I love the SF area and it's people. You guy's are all right. East coast does have a different element to it, or vibe. Some of us are complaiming about a prevelent force in racing, I see them, hear them, my wife waits on them, I've rigged their boats and painted their houses, they exist. and unfortunetly they give a bad name to the sport.


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## BentSailor (Nov 10, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> People might not like the thought of that - but it's law. Therefore, the collision rules on that course are different than the rules outside that course.


That's incorrect because it pushes the concept too far. The rules are different _for the racers, *between the racers*_ on that course _by contractual agreement only_.

The decision you keep referring to only is in regards to _liability between the racers_ - it does not change the law in regards to COLREGS and the need for racers to abide by them in regards to anyone not in a contractual agreement on differing rules.

It was my understanding you acknowledged this. I'm confused as to why you keep pushing your theory given that?


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

There are yacht clubs and boatyards around the Northeast that don't have their noses in the air but they seem to be dwindling in number, being taken over/bought up by the 10% (the *1%* hang out at places like NYYC in Newport). There are definitely more "keep out," gated places now than 40 years ago. I think it is a reflection of the polarization that is happening to the country in general and is not conducive to getting more middle-class kids into sailing/racing or boating in general. In places like LI, where I grew up, overpopulation has a lot to do with it as well. There are just too many boats for too few slips, hence the price-to-play goes sky high, effectively barring many from even thinking about owning a boat.


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## Guero (Dec 29, 2009)

I knew how to sail, well I tough that I knew how to sail before my first regatta. I did all the club races in salt water (Gulf of mexico, Mexican coast) for 2 years, won a few of them. I learned so much from it, it's unbelievable. Now I only participate in some with long legs, buoys become boring after a while but it did really make me a better sailor.

- Learned where to instinctively do my tacks on close hauling to get to a specific point. It really made me a better navigator and planner. I also had fun studying the forecasts a day before and planning the race. 

- Learned how to sail better on some points of sails that I usually used less when coastal cruising, but in the race was forced to use because of the position of the next buoys. 

- Learned to communicate much better with crew

- Learned to evaluate other boat speeds. Now if another boat is coming toward me on a different tack I know if I have time to pass or if he will pass before me or if there's risk a collision, all of this because this situation happen all the time in around the cans regattas. 

- In races, you need to do everything fast, got much better at reacting faster to various events. (Gusts, stuff that breaks etc). For example on one race m y main was very old and I was almost at the buoy beating and the wind increased a lot. Just before passing the buoy my main ripped near the bottom. We passed the marker the next leg was downwind. We were able to maintain speed by sitting it in the stay while the crew adjusted the main to first reef (it ripped below first reef so was fine with a reef in). 

- Got better and more comfortable in "heavy traffic", when there's 25 boats close to each other in the final minutes of the countdown it can get pretty tense. 

- Learned about optimizing sail trimming for that extra half knot. When you're sailing with guests I would usually just open my sails without much tweaking up cause I didn't care about more speed 6 knots and I was happy. In a regatta it's constant tweaking to get the most out of the boat now I just trim better naturally because of this. (Outhaul, main sheet, trav, vang, jib slider at proper position etc)

- Discussing about the race with other sailors after the regatta is entertaining and you can learn a lot from the experienced ones. 

- It made me purchase and learn to fly a spin/gen. 


Overall, it did improve my sailing skills and I would recommend it to anyone. Just don't take it too seriously, safety is more important than winning, and don't push the boat and crew too hard. Almost all races I've been in you can hear some people screaming on some boats and tension build up on the boat and the fun is gone for them. Also, try to keep the drinking for after the race. Last race 2 boats collided, it wasn't pretty. When I was really into it I had a few costly regattas in 20+ knots races cause I was pushing the boat too hard and I broke stuff.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

What I like about racing, is that it has made me an efficient cruiser.

By being a "micro-managing-sail-control-freak", I find that I am able to keep my boat moving well in light air, that many people would normally give up on, and use the engine.

I hate the engine. I hate the expense of fuel, the noise, and the stink. Every time I put hours on the engine, I envision myself that much closer to an overhaul.

It's enjoyable to me, to get 4 kts of boat speed from 6 knots of breeze instead of firing up the engine. That's life on the Chesapeake in the summer.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

BentSailor said:


> That's incorrect because it pushes the concept too far. The rules are different _for the racers, *between the racers*_ on that course _by contractual agreement only_.
> 
> The decision you keep referring to only is in regards to _liability between the racers_ - it does not change the law in regards to COLREGS and the need for racers to abide by them in regards to anyone not in a contractual agreement on differing rules.
> 
> It was my understanding you acknowledged this. I'm confused as to why you keep pushing your theory given that?


That's exactly what I said. The rules are different.

But where you see a cut-and-dried interpretation of the racer's responsibility toward the intruding cruiser (which is correct) - there's a not so cut-and-dried area of responsibility with that intruding cruiser toward the racer.

There's room for legal argument here. That's all I'm saying.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

!00% with you on that, Bubblehead. Which is why every time a newb says "I want to go sailing but have no interest in..." I tell 'em to hitch rides racing anyway.

What everyone seems to forget in discussing the racing rules versus colregs, is that the racing rules, and the concept of racing itself, are all based on the fact that life IS NOT FAIR and one boat may find itself OBSTRUCTED BY TRAFFIC or disadvantaged by a wind shift, or any one of a number of other things. There's a barge coming down? A canoe? Doesn't matter, if they have the right of way, a gentlemen avoids them without bitching about it.

Whatever happened to "ungentlemenly conduct" being a reason for getting tossed out of a race? Yes, that used to be in the rules. I don't dare look to see if it still is.

Of course you realize, this all makes the case that racers do require a course of their own, just like NASCAR events. Maybe some of the big boys will start buying up some underused areas and making proper arrangements for private ponds now, eh?


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

hellosailor said:


> Whatever happened to "ungentlemenly conduct" being a reason for getting tossed out of a race? Yes, that used to be in the rules. I don't dare look to see if it still is.


Rule 69.


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## ccriders (Jul 8, 2006)

BubbleheadMd said:


> I hate the engine....
> It's enjoyable to me, to get 4 kts of boat speed from 6 knots of breeze instead of firing up the engine.


That is exactly right. That is sailing, not just boating. And the best is to be able to just glide into the slip, catch the springline and come to a peaceful rest in your slip. Don't get to do that much here.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Here is something many of not most puget sound clubs adhear to as far as commercial traffic. Along with ALL races generally speaking need a CG on water permit. A meeting is held once a year at the 48 North office, ie local freeby rag on sailing.
This is copied from Sloop Tavern YC page, but as you will notice a few other clubs have adopted it per the notice. Some like the one I belong to the north have adopted it, but not in the form per say written here etc.

SPECIAL SAILBOAT SAFETY REGULATIONS OF PUGET SOUND

2002 Revision

As adopted by the Shilshole Bay, Sloop Tavern, Corinthian, and Seattle Yacht Clubs

We must share Puget Sound with its commercial traffic, including many deep-water vessels and tows. It is sobering to note that, if your boat is one mile dead-ahead of a freighter coming down the Sound at normal speed, and the freighter’s helm is put hard over to avoid you, the freighter’s bow will miss you, but her stern will not. Obviously, this implies that early and decisive action is required to keep your boat out of the path of a large oncoming vessel or tow.

1. Yachts must not sail across a tow line, too close ahead, or too close alongside of commercial traffic. Deep water vessels have limited ability to change course and speed. Barges under tow can yaw unexpectedly well out to the side at speeds essentially the same as they are being towed. Yachts should not pass less than one mile ahead and 1/4 mile to the side of large vessels.

2. Rule 10 of the International and Inland Rules to Prevent Collisions at Sea (COLREGS) requires that no power-driven vessel less than 20 meters (66 feet) in length, and no sailing vessel (of any size) may impede the safe passage of a power-driven vessel following a Vessel Traffic System (VTS) Lane.

3. Rule 9 of the COLREGS requires that no power vessel of less than 20 meters (66 feet) in length and no sailing vessel (of any length) shall impede the safe passage of any vessel which can navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway. Puget Sound can be considered a “narrow channel” for most large commercial traffic. “Impede” means to cause to alter speed or course or to take evasive action.

4. A yacht in position where it may impede commercial traffic must exit from the “danger area” immediately, under auxiliary power if necessary. If power is used, it must be reported to the Race Committee at the finish line. Also, a written report must be made on a protest form, showing the location, time, duration of power use, speed, direction of exit, and that the competitive position of the yacht was not improved. If the last item cannot be demonstrated adequately, a time penalty may be imposed.

5. Radar reflectors must be flown at all times when racing. A radar reflector, all metal, of the triplaner corner reflector type, each plane at least 12” square or 12 ½ inches diameter to be carried at least 13 feet (4 meters) above the waterline. Other types of reflectors may be used provided that it has been demonstrated that they are effective under all conditions. See PIYA Special Regulations paragraph 3.8.

6. Navigation lights must be shown between sunset and sunrise as required by the International Rules of the Road.

Observed and/or reported violations of the safety regulations may be protested. The Race Committee shall have the option of issuing a “warning” when deemed appropriate. Warnings are recorded and may be considered when judging any future reports.



ABOVE ALL, THE SKIPPER IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE SAFETY OF THE
CREW AND BOAT.




One thing that helps, makes you learn something better, is to go into racing, teaching etc. Teaching skiing taught me to be a way better skier than I was when not. Same with my kids when younger, lessons taught the a lot, but racing taught them better, as they had to turn in whatever condition that turn had and survive per say to the next one. They learn to use edges, not sliding/skidding. Teaching makes you aware of how you are skiing, so you strive to demonstrate the what you are trying to teach the student. so you become very adept at different levels of turns etc. 

Boat racing is the same, you learn as bubble said, to trim the boat, sails etc, to get 4 knots of speed out of a boat in 6 knots of wind. learn to walk about in a slow deliberate manner so the boat does not heel or unheel too much etc and lose speed/direction. This allows you to enjoy a day sail on light wind days vs not going out or motoring!

Like skiing has thru the 30 some odd year I have been teaching, things learned on the race course, have come down to the non racer thru the top racers. Look at boat design and ski design. Also, reality with ski's, the wide ski's came about from snow board designs. One needs to realize, things will change, change can be both good and bad. Racing again, good and bad. mostly good frankly. Some of my better learning days came from one week race class on Mt hood, taught by the Mahre twins coach in 82. Same with sailing technique. 

Marty


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

BubbleheadMd said:


> What I like about racing, is that it has made me an efficient cruiser.
> 
> By being a "micro-managing-sail-control-freak", I find that I am able to keep my boat moving well in light air, that many people would normally give up on, and use the engine.
> 
> ...


Thats not why I took out my engine but it's why I never put one back in. That and The $6,000, but mostly because of the sense of accomplishmant I
feel when I sail all the way from over there......to here. I blow's my mind. It was not having an engine that made me a better sailor. There is no doubt that racing would make me better....... or show how good I'm not.
When I was a boy, we raced in the Columbus day regatta in Miami, because of the Soverel 28 we were on, they would took us out of the Mother Tub Class and put us with the Gung Ho class, just me and grand pa. We actually did good for the first 1/2 hour, but they were all so rude as they passed us it turned me off from the sport so I guess I've alway's been closed minded about it.


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

CalebD said:


> What a firebrand of a thread BubbleHeadMD!
> 
> I have raced my old Tartan 27' now for about six years on the Hudson River where there is significant tug and barge traffic. We are always on the lookout for those guys and the first to spot an approaching tug will usually announce it to the racing fleet or the RC will.
> 
> ...


Racing whatever one races on a closed course only exposes the racers to each other. If they take each other out it is just the racers that are effected. However, racing among the "public" and screaming for them to "get off our coarse" is where the rub can be. In just about any sport or activity there are always some that are inconsiderate. If you got 5 blasts you were likely too close, at least in the tug skipper's mind. But that is ok, you were racing

Paul T


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

No, it's* NOT *ok to get 5 toots from commercial traffic. And *NO*, it's *NOT OK* even if you were racing. Knock that trolling crap off. And seriously, when's the last time you were 'screamed at' by racers? Undoubtably it happens, but I've been yelled at by other cruisers while we've been cruising when we've crossed within 100 yards. The difference is I also that this is an exception but *ISN'T *the norm among cruisers in this area.


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

puddinlegs said:


> No, it's* NOT *ok to get 5 toots from commercial traffic. And *NO*, it's *NOT OK* even if you were racing. Knock that trolling crap off. And seriously, when's the last time you were 'screamed at' by racers? Undoubtably it happens, but I've been yelled at by other cruisers while we've been cruising when we've crossed within 100 yards. The difference is I also that this is an exception but *ISN'T *the norm among cruisers in this area.


Totally agree. The "OK" part was just my feeble attempt at a little humor. I said there are always "some", not "all" that are inconsiderate. It was not my intent to say all racers are inconsiderant.

Paul T


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

puddinlegs said:


> No, it's* NOT *ok to get 5 toots from commercial traffic.
> ...snip...


I do agree with this statement as well. I felt bad that we made the tug captain nervous. 
We would have added only a minute or two to our time had we gone behind the tug.
Hindsight = 20/20.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

hellosailor said:


> !00% with you on that, Bubblehead. Which is why every time a newb says "I want to go sailing but have no interest in..." I tell 'em to hitch rides racing anyway.
> 
> *What everyone seems to forget in discussing the racing rules versus colregs, is that the racing rules, and the concept of racing itself, are all based on the fact that life IS NOT FAIR and one boat may find itself OBSTRUCTED BY TRAFFIC or disadvantaged by a wind shift, or any one of a number of other things. There's a barge coming down? A canoe? Doesn't matter, if they have the right of way, a gentlemen avoids them without bitching about it.*
> 
> ...


The part in bold, is one of the things I love about sailboat racing. The random obstacles that can happen, that require thinking and adaptability.

Someone else in this thread said that if we were racing on closed courses, we'd only get exposure to each other. Exactly, and where's the fun in that? I also like the fact that it _is_ supposed to be a gentlemen's sport, and self-policing. One night, some of the crew asked why I didn't fly my 170% genoa, and when I told them that it was illegal, they asked if anyone would even notice. I then changed the topic of discussion to the subject of integrity. 

I don't yell at non-racers to "get off of my race course", and I don't mind other vessels being there, I only get irate when they ignore the COLREGS or deliberately make discourteous maneuvers to flaunt the fact that they're the privileged vessel. Ah well, all part of the "navigation" part of the racing equation.


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

BubbleheadMd said:


> The part in bold, is one of the things I love about sailboat racing. The random obstacles that can happen, that require thinking and adaptability.
> 
> Someone else in this thread said that if we were racing on closed courses, we'd only get exposure to each other. Exactly, and where's the fun in that? I also like the fact that it _is_ supposed to be a gentlemen's sport, and self-policing. One night, some of the crew asked why I didn't fly my 170% genoa, and when I told them that it was illegal, they asked if anyone would even notice. I then changed the topic of discussion to the subject of integrity.
> 
> I don't yell at non-racers to "get off of my race course", and I don't mind other vessels being there, I only get irate when they ignore the COLREGS or deliberately make discourteous maneuvers to flaunt the fact that they're the privileged vessel. Ah well, all part of the "navigation" part of the racing equation.


Well, you asked "Why all the angst against racing on Sailnet?". Some posted an answer to your question and others questioned or basically disputed those answers. Your first post listed "myths" so it appears you had pretty much made up your mind before hand? So, I am wondering if anyone has basically changed their opinion of racing, and/or racers, in general?

Paul T


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

I had my mind made up about certain points. I entertained debate, to see if anyone would offer anything that could change my mind.

I did learn a few things about people's perceptions of each other. That in itself, is valuable and will help me while I'm sailing.


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

BubbleheadMd said:


> I had my mind made up about certain points. I entertained debate, to see if anyone would offer anything that could change my mind.
> 
> I did learn a few things about people's perceptions of each other. That in itself, is valuable and will help me while I'm sailing.


An honest answer, mission acomplished.

Paul T


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

dabnis said:


> Well, you asked "Why all the angst against racing on Sailnet?". Some posted an answer to your question and others questioned or basically disputed those answers. Your first post listed "myths" so it appears you had pretty much made up your mind before hand? So, I am wondering if anyone has basically changed their opinion of racing, and/or racers, in general?
> 
> Paul T


I've changed my mind about some racers........for now.


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## Allen-deckard (Jul 26, 2011)

Why is so hard to believe that some people just have no interest in Racing? That the sail to relax enjoy a slow lifestyle watch scenery go by enjoy a drink with the wife while talking about everything from the kids to politics away from the tv computers living even if for a short juant around the local island and watching the sunset before heading home.

Life is fast smokes by me year after year wondering where its all gone. 

My sailboat is my escape to a little bit of the time gone by a little slower.

Worrying about who came in first around what can may hold great excitement for many and im happy they have found something they love as much as i love the slow ride but i don't understand the angst of the racers to cruisers on the forms if you want to flip the coin.

I have no more problem with the racing crowd on the water than i do nascar when im going to get groceries.


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## BentSailor (Nov 10, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> That's exactly what I said. The rules are different.


You said the rules are different without specifying as to whom. They are NOT different for the cruiser. At all. Which is the point being made.

The racers have to abide by COLREGS in regards to the cruiser (regardless of whether the RRS conflicts or not) and the cruiser has to abide by COLREGS in regards to the racer(s). As far as the cruiser is concerned, there is no change in rules and legally this is the law of the land.



> But where you see a cut-and-dried interpretation of the racer's responsibility toward the intruding cruiser (which is correct) - there's a not so cut-and-dried area of responsibility with that intruding cruiser toward the racer.


Actually, it is cut & dried. The cruiser must abide by COLREGS. That's it.



> There's room for legal argument here. That's all I'm saying.


There is always room for legal argument. It's the feature of our legal systems that keeps the litigation industry alive. What I & others are saying is that this legal argument isn't worth the time it takes to hear it. It is contrary to the law of the land AND has no precedent to support it.


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## Murph (Jun 24, 2012)

Here's my nickels worth: I've spent some time with a few hard core racers on a hard core boat pushing hard core limits for nothing more than a few seconds of finish time. I might be new to the sailing world but I say this without compunction: Those guys are dicks! 

Fast boat, though.

Never again.....I'll fritter away my sailing time with the laid back folks who enjoy cruising around.....as opposed to those who would trade a nut to get there first.

I'll be racing little boats here in the next week or 2.....been practicing & everything....but there's a fundamental diff between those who cruise & race for fun.....& those who race & little else matters(not safety, not the rules of the road, not consideration....zero!)

In closing: In my limited experience most are walkin' talkin' dooshbags


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

murph said:


> here's my nickels worth: I've spent some time with a few hard core racers on a hard core boat pushing hard core limits for nothing more than a few seconds of finish time. I might be new to the sailing world but i say this without compunction: Those guys are dicks!
> 
> Fast boat, though.
> 
> ...


ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

Murph said:


> Here's my nickels worth: I've spent some time with a few hard core racers on a hard core boat pushing hard core limits for nothing more than a few seconds of finish time. I might be new to the sailing world but I say this without compunction: Those guys are dicks!
> 
> Fast boat, though.
> 
> ...


Don't hold back, tell us how you really feel about them. I am sure one could find them in any number of sports but in sailing they are fairly visible and audible.

Paul T


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## lapworth (Dec 19, 2008)

No, I don't love Chesapeake fishermen but I'd never blatantly run over their gear. If was I was negligent, I would replace it. Let's not forget that the fishermen have responsibilities too.

This is what I love about the bay! So many Haters. I also love Sailnet so little of this matters.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

BentSailor said:


> There is always room for legal argument. It's the feature of our legal systems that keeps the litigation industry alive.


Again - that's all I'm saying. As for your conclusion - that's your (and others') opinion. And that's cool. But that certainly doesn't make it the final word.

A case between two yachts that ends up at the First District Court of Appeals illustrates the fact that things are not always as cut and dried as you are trying to make them. There was little precedent for that case as well (which is understandable due to the activity).


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## Murph (Jun 24, 2012)

Just sharing a noobie perspective on this gig.....I say sail on sailor....but IMNSHO you forfeit your cool card the second you willingly compromise safety. Those few experiences made me realize there's 2 kinds of sailors in the world....and I want to be the other kind.

I can always race later.

Also btw, thanks for the laugh Capt. A.....I started to feel like I farted in church over here.


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## BentSailor (Nov 10, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> Again - that's all I'm saying. As for your conclusion - that's your (and others') opinion. And that's cool. But that certainly doesn't make it the final word.


You are right - my opinion is not the final word. Until such time as there is a change in precedent or a change in the law - the final word goes to the relevant legislation and how it's enforced. Currently it is THAT which tells you that you are wrong.

Claiming that it _might_ change in the future _if_ the right case comes along and the judge goes against decades of precedent because of it doesn't affect what is correct *right now*.



> A case between two yachts that ends up at the First District Court of Appeals illustrates the fact that things are not always as cut and dried as you are trying to make them. There was little precedent for that case as well (which is understandable due to the activity).


Not at all. That is a matter of liability given a contract between people that differs from the laws of the land. Implicit contracts, license agreements, and arbitration conditions are challenged (and subsequently appealed) all the time. The thing you keep ignoring is that a cruiser has no such contract (implicit or explicit) AND in that case COLREGS are the only rules that apply.

The case you keep quoting *explicitly* refers to the rules both parties *explicitly* agreed upon to take part in the regatta. The decision turned upon the racing rules both parties agreed to. _There is no statute or precedent in either of our countries that can force a third-party to be bound by a contract (implicit or explicit) they have neither seen nor agreed to._ I'm beginning to wonder if you actually read the court judgement. It's pretty plainly written and explicit about why it made the decision it did. 

For what it's worth - I am grateful for you linking the decision here, it was interesting to read and comforted me greatly


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

I certainly hope that a thread like this does open the mind to other people perspectives. Live and let live and all that. Of course as speeds go up the ability to avoid a race fleet becomes harder and harder. I guess eventually closed courses will simply become a fact of life.

How that effects those of us who simply wish to plod along enjoying our harbours and tidal streams I have some fear. Already if you want to head down harbour in Sydney on a Saturday it really is preferable to drop your sails and motor around the race courses. Of course unless you are a ferry then you just give 'em the toot and plough on through.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

BentSailor said:


> That is a matter of liability given a contract between people that differs from the laws of the land. Implicit contracts, license agreements, and arbitration conditions are challenged (and subsequently appealed) all the time. The thing you keep ignoring is that a cruiser has no such contract (implicit or explicit) AND in that case COLREGS are the only rules that apply.


Bent, I'm not ignoring it. Actually, this _implicit_ "contract" is precisely the point where there is room for legal argument in such a scenario where liability is at question.

But, as of today, you're right. There is no precedent for this kind of case that I can find. Yet all I've ever said is that it's a relatively ripe fruit for litigation - and is therefore a risk.

I know, I know...you disagree.

We'll see.

Now, back to this thread...apart from a couple of dudes, it seems that the racer/crusier angst isn't too bad. That's cool.

(Holy crap bubble!!! Almost 5000 views??)


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## BentSailor (Nov 10, 2010)

*@smack:* So long as people are sailing boats costing an arm and a leg, the area is ripe for litigation. So long as there is enough money &/or ego involved that it is worth getting lawyers involved, litigation will result (just look at the America's Cup ).

I don't disagree that a future decision may change things (obviously, that is always the case), I'm simply saying it is not the current law or a "reasonable" interpretation of it at the moment.

If the risk of someone suing you using an unreasonable & unprecedented argument against you is worrying - I'd suggest you not only need to get out of sailing around other people, but to move into the Himilayas and live as a hermit!

---

Just to be clear - I have no issue with racers in general. I crew in twilight races and practice my sailing skills in races. There are most definitely racers that fit the stereotype of pushing/breaking the rules of collision avoidance (COLREGS or racing rules) for advantage. There are also racers like those I crew with that are simply happy if we have four or five people behind us when we finish (putting us somewhere between tenth & fifteenth place  ). Sharing water with people who are more interested in a good sail than on the fastest sail is just preferable to me as it tends to be far more relaxing 

My pedantry & smack's doggedness regarding COLREGS vs race-specific rules nonwithstanding - I don't see any widespread animosity toward racers here. On the other hand, I think _anyone_ (racer or otherwise) who has experienced the (lack of) regard Sydney ferries have for others on the water share a common "angst"


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

BentSailor said:


> My pedantry & smack's doggedness regarding COLREGS vs race-specific rules nonwithstanding - I don't see any widespread animosity toward racers here. On the other hand, I think _anyone_ (racer or otherwise) who has experienced the (lack of) regard Sydney ferries have for others on the water share a common "angst"


It ain't just Sydney ferries there either, Bent - the Brisbane Rivercats have been known to run down the odd passer-by on the odd occasion.

I do wonder though if the Sydney ferries haven't got less "angst" now than they used to have.. wasn't that one of the reasons the hydrofoils were pulled from service?? I loved travelling on those as a kid...

..and the sight of a full-loaded 4-engine Sandringham flying boat taking off in your general direction must have frightened the life out of a yachtie or two although, granted, there were a lot less people on the harbour back then.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

The discussion has been generally interesting, with some exceptions.

Without rereading the entire thread again, I think there is unanimity-1 about the application of COLREGS/Inland Rules to the interaction of racers and non-racers. Some general disagreement among a minority about the concept of racing that is in my opinion based on a lack of experience with the other camp.



BubbleheadMd said:


> I did learn a few things about people's perceptions of each other. That in itself, is valuable and will help me while I'm sailing.


I learned that Smackdaddy is a troll. Disappointing conclusion. Ah well.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

SVAuspicious said:


> I learned that Smackdaddy is a troll. Disappointing conclusion. Ah well.


Because I disagree with something? My, my.

Actually, I think you're the first one to start direct name-calling in the 270 posts of this thread.

Disappointing conclusion indeed.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Bent,

THe ferry issue seems to be common enough to say common. BUT, at the same time, many captains are reasonable in thehow they operate their ship. I know locally, private small boats they will toot or if in the middle of a crossing sorta kinda move around folks. They are pretty good with boats in the channel ie stay away, change course to allow them to stay in the channel even tho technically they, ie ferry has the right away. 

Then again, being as pudding and I live in an area that has from what I understand more commercial boat traffic than any other west coast port.......we see a lot of traffic, hence why the previous posted separate rules for racing in the sound.... 

at the end of the day, it should really be about, "enjoying the boat we have on the water for its intended purpose, giving respect to the others that are also on the water, doing what they enjoy in their boat" be it a sailor racing, daysailing, ferry on a run, fishing, waterskiing...........shall we continue with the different types of watercraft?!?!?

marty


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

smack

how dare thee have a different opinion! jeezus.....some people!:laugher:laugher

then again, you did go to the dark side buying one of them multihulls recently did you not!

off to work with me...........

Marty


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## ccriders (Jul 8, 2006)

Well Rats,
Now I want to go racing with my waterfront cottage.
In the bicycle world we call the time trial the "Race of Truth". So maybe I will set me up a course and time trial it working on my tacking skills, reaching speed, down wind skills, etc., and do it will all my stuff aboard and my heavy sails, all single handed. If after several runs I can see improvement, then watch out world....


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

blt2ski said:


> at the end of the day, it should really be about, "enjoying the boat we have on the water for its intended purpose, giving respect to the others that are also on the water, doing what they enjoy in their boat" be it a sailor racing, daysailing, ferry on a run, fishing, waterskiing...........shall we continue with the different types of watercraft?!?!?
> 
> marty


Exactly! If this were the last post of this thread, it'd be pretty much perfect!


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

ccriders said:


> Well Rats,
> Now I want to go racing with my waterfront cottage.
> In the bicycle world we call the time trial the "Race of Truth". So maybe I will set me up a course and time trial it working on my tacking skills, reaching speed, down wind skills, etc., and do it will all my stuff aboard and my heavy sails, all single handed. If after several runs I can see improvement, then watch out world....


cc - set up a 5-mile triangular course in your area using at least 2 GPS waypoints. Make sure it's 5 miles exactly (I can help measure if you need it). Then send me the coordinates. I'll confirm them, then add your course to the Global Regatta courses for the CC area. It's completely free and the ultimate time trial that allows anyone with a sail to race each other all over the world.

Here's more info:

*Global Regatta*

A dude on the Chessie holds the 5-mile course record right now. But I'm out to beat him this season.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

lapworth said:


> No, I don't love Chesapeake fishermen but I'd never blatantly run over their gear. If was I was negligent, I would replace it. Let's not forget that the fishermen have responsibilities too.
> 
> This is what I love about the bay! So many Haters. I also love Sailnet so little of this matters.


"Not loving" is not the same as hating.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Hartley ....

Sydney Ferrymasters may be a little less aggro these days but if so tis but marginal. We spent a large part of the weekend tucked up at anchor on the harbour and there was more than the odd blast as the Manly lads scattered the fleet. Hydrafoils btw had no specific right of way. The only ferries that do are the green and yellow state transit boats. 

I remember the flying boats from my youth. Today you only get a hint of what that must have been like as the wee single engine jobbies take off and land. Even that can be a thrill. 

(hey ... don't answer me in this thread but how was Lord Howe ? )


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

blt2ski said:


> Then again, being as pudding and I live in an area that has from what I understand more commercial boat traffic than any other west coast port.......we see a lot of traffic, hence why the previous posted separate rules for racing in the sound....
> 
> at the end of the day, it should really be about, "enjoying the boat we have on the water for its intended purpose, giving respect to the others that are also on the water, doing what they enjoy in their boat" be it a sailor racing, daysailing, ferry on a run, fishing, waterskiing...........shall we continue with the different types of watercraft?!?!?


I see a marked difference in attitude between those enjoying themselves on the water (cruisers and even racers) and those who have a job to do. ..and really must get from A to B as quickly as possible to meet their schedule, etc, etc. with little regard for the jolly little sail-boat messing about in the shipping lane.

Perhaps it's a little like the little old ladies on their way to the shopping centre without a care in the world.. and quite oblivious to the peak-hour traffic piling up behind them. Ignorance is bliss.


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## TNGal (Jul 2, 2012)

Capt. Aaron - really enjoyed reading your posts here & in the thread about "longer than the fridge" . I have the highest regard for your self-sufficiency & your attitude! I too enjoy simple, all-natural foods & ways of doing things. Would be honored to crew with you sometime (as a good natured novice with excellent eyesight, ability to follow orders, and absolutely nothing to prove ;-D)! ). Going to S.A. anytime soon? email me: tnjazzgal at hotmail dot com.


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## lapworth (Dec 19, 2008)

BubbleheadMd said:


> "Not loving" is not the same as hating.


Sorry I shouldn't tease so much. Please don't get me wrong I think your a great sailor and racer. If it makes you feel any better I give the fishing guys a hard time when I am out with them.


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

I knowd I'd made a good life style choice. With so much bliss around me I'm feelin good.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Cam,

You probably are correct in the comparison tween a recreational boater vs a commercial boat! ie also like the older person, yeah usually a lady driving with out a care in the world. From the commercial end, sometimes it comes down to "is the person making ANY attempt to stay our of my way while in the shipping lane etc" or "making no effort with a finner wagging at me" attitude. 

Probably no different than some capt of the Abe Lincoln a year ago as it is heading towards me, with a coastie coming towards me as I am trying to get the HELL out of its way too, in a shipping lane that is their, but not marked on the maps........need to figure out the main channel sound to Everett Wa lanes.........He got a little closer to me than I would have liked......even tho I saw him coming down Admiralty inlet.........

Marty


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

All our races are (unfortunately) held in or across shipping lanes.. having no place else to play, it's just something we have to deal with down here.

For this reason, our Racing Rules (in the NOR) clearly state that if a ship is coming up the channel, the channel is out of bounds and any boat getting the "5 toots" may be disqualified. Sometimes you can use it to your advantage.. eg: make sure you just make it across in time and the guys behind you don't!

It's made checking the shipping report more important than checking the tide times.

It's taken a while, but, as much as they try not to mess up a race, the the ship captains are getting the idea now that the racers will keep out of their way. The cruisers, on the other hand, can be a law unto themselves..


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## rgscpat (Aug 1, 2010)

Summary:

Spinning theories can be fun at the bar after the race, but shouldn’t be held out as valid advice. This is especially so for theories that contradict settled law and custom and don’t have much factual basis; excessively repeating such notions could lead people into hazard. Among those who write and administer the racing rules, it is settled fact that the COLREGS (IRPCAS / inland / state, local, or provincial rules) apply between racers and non-racers. Trained race officers or judges are a good resource, especially those senior or international judges who are frequently exposed to the fine points of the rules in a wide variety of settings.

As a fine point, racers are racing from the moment of their preparatory signal (four minutes before the start) until their finish; the racing rules apply with lesser force among racers who are preparing to race, in between races, or waiting for other racers to finish. 
A pedantic point would be to call the COLREGS the newer name IRPCAS (“international rules for prevention of collision at sea”).

With very few high-level exceptions, race courses are not closed to other traffic. Apart from start/finish lines, race courses are often difficult to distinguish, especially if existing government marks are used as turning marks or if drop marks are small relative to the size of the course. Race courses are also subject to frequent change; sometimes even during the middle of the race. A large wind shift could cause race organizers to move marks and could re-direct race traffic toward other traffic that had been avoiding the racers before the shift. And, in some cases, race courses do traverse deep-sea channels or block access to harbors. Unless a large group of one-design boats is present, racers are not always distinguishable from other boats. Racers do, however, tend to know who the other race boats are and can apply the COLREGS (IRPCAS, inland, or local/state/provincial rules) to other boats. 

The mere fact of racing does not make racers restricted in their ability to maneuver under the COLREGS, which recognize no such special status or privilege. A very special case might be very large, high-performance race boats racing in a congested harbor; such a case would call for the race organizers to make special arrangements with local authorities to enact temporary regulations and restrict access to ensure race safety. This is way beyond the “pay grade” of the sort of racing that most of us will ever do.

Traditionally, most race organizers had been free to run races as they saw fit, but increasingly they are bound by requirements to apply for permits and permissions to hold their races. This is particularly true in crowded harbors and coasts with lots of commercial traffic. These requirements are increasing in the wake of tragedies such as the loss of crew in the Crewed Farallones race off San Francisco. Although the safety of racing boats has traditionally been the responsibility of each skipper and crew, there is ever-increasing pressure on race organizers to do their part to increase safety. 

The racing rules explicitly require racers to apply the COLREGS (“ “) to encounters with non-racers. Additionally, any special rules that a race organizer creates, such as those allowing for protest or disqualification of racers who interfere with or endanger other traffic, become part of the rules. A racer is someone on a boat whose skipper or owner has agreed to be bound by the rules for a particular race or regatta. Boats that merely happen upon a race course are not bound by the racing rules. They can try to be courteous to the racers – and vice versa – but ultimately, all encounters between the racers and non-racers are governed by the COLREGS (IRPCAS, etc.).

Sometimes race organizers may choose to suspend the RRS and use the COLREGS instead. This may be especially appropriate for racing at night time during long-distance events. 

Racers need the racing rules because the RRS are written to allow for boats that are maneuvering close together and quickly, especially at starts, turning marks, and finishes. By contrast, the COLREGS (“ “) discourage vessels from coming so close. That’s one more reason why encounters between racers and cruisers, which latter are often not as maneuverable, should be bound by the COLREGS. 

Also, only some of the currently active racers are likely to be familiar with the racing rules beyond the basics, because the racing rules are subject to revision every four years, and sometimes more often. Different national racing authorities can modify some of the rules, as can one-design sailing classes, and local race organizers. Clearly, non-racers, or even former-racers who haven’t kept close track of the racing rules, can’t keep track of all of this.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

This is a great write up rg. I think you've laid it out very nicely.

I do want to reiterate, however, that I've been very clearly speaking about a hypothetical situation. I've certainly not been "holding it out as valid advice". So don't put me in that liability corner. This is a semi-anonymous public discussion forum where various opinions are discussed...just like a bar. Don't make it more than that. Anyone who takes posts on this or any other forum as law or gospel should have their head examined.

My point has always been that I think, for all the reasons you walked through, the cruiser should exercise more caution entering and/or being on a race course, precisely because there are things happening thereon with which the _cruiser_ is not familiar. Because of this, risk is elevated.

Moreover, I think this becomes especially problematic when, in the context of this thread, the cruiser may have a bad attitude toward the racers (for whatever reason) and act more aggressively toward those other boats. This too can be unexpected behavior, which elevates risk.

Finally, I've stated my opinion that because of the court decision above which holds (as you've also clearly laid out below) that the collision rules on that course, for those racers, are different than those beyond the boundaries of that course - the potential for liability/negligence litigation is higher in the theoretical case we've discussed. (And, yes, I know many disagree with this opinion - which is certainly their right.)

As Bent rightly pointed out above, this potential doesn't at all change how racing is currently done, or how the COLREGS are currently followed, or any of that. It's simply a matter of increased risk and how sailors choose to deal with the implications of that.

So, in "summary", if you want assign to me "advice" I'm holding out as "valid", it's this...always take steps to reduce risk when sailing.



rgscpat said:


> Summary:
> 
> *Spinning theories can be fun at the bar after the race, but shouldn't be held out as valid advice.* This is especially so for theories that contradict settled law and custom and don't have much factual basis; excessively repeating such notions could lead people into hazard. Among those who write and administer the racing rules, it is settled fact that the COLREGS (IRPCAS / inland / state, local, or provincial rules) apply between racers and non-racers. Trained race officers or judges are a good resource, especially those senior or international judges who are frequently exposed to the fine points of the rules in a wide variety of settings.
> 
> ...


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## rgscpat (Aug 1, 2010)

Agreed... and I also believe a lot of education would be good, not only for cruisers and racers, but for everyone who shares the water. Anglers, jet-skiers, kiteboarders, commercial traffic and others all have their special needs, problems, and hazards. Racing sailboats are one of the more misunderstood groups of vessels on the water, but not the only such group. 

The recent tragic death of astronaut Alan Poindexter, who survived operation Desert Storm, more than 400 landings on aircraft carriers, and command of space shuttle missions, only to be killed by a family member's jet ski, is only one of many illustrations of the dangers of taking boat operation too lightly... although this death may have had to do more with lack of education or reckless operation rather than not understanding right-of-way rules.


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## ccriders (Jul 8, 2006)

Do many race courses have boundries? Don't they mostly have marks to be rounded and a start/finish line?
Recently, I was out spectating a regatta of about a dozen J24s and half a dozen 20 or so foot "dinghys". In one race four J24s took off on a port tack and held that until they made the lay line for the windward mark. The others took off on a starboard tack and tacked back and forth jockeying for position until they could round the mark. So, was there a boundary that would limit how far afield they could sail and still be in the race?
The port tack won that race even though they covered more ground. I suppose the luffing wars reduced the starboard tack overall VMG.


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

Angst = worry, anxiety. You can't be worried or anxious against something. You can be worried, or have a feeling of angst ABOUT something. Best usage of all I think, would be "why all the angst concerning racing on Sailnet"


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## sailordave (Jun 26, 2001)

After skimming through this thread I'll offer a few observations...

First: Racing will make you a better sailor, at least as far as trimming, sail selection, keeping the boat moving, learning to fly a kite, etc.

Second: a LOT of "racers" are not good seaman. Hell, some people who race don't really even know how to sail b/c they've only ever done a few positions on a boat. But the general consensus of the offshore crew I race w/ was that a lot of racers don't have the all around skills that offshore racers/cruisers do. And I'm talking stuff like knots, anchoring, navigation, RADIO protocol, etc. No, I'm not painting everyone w/ a broad brush, but most cruisers and certainly offshore racers are much better at a wider range of skillsets.

Third: If you got 5 toots from a "too nervous" tug captain... well then I would suggest that all sailors, not just the racers, get on the freaking VHF, talk to said commercial traffic and come to an understanding. I've had captains tell me where they were going to go and they didn't think I could cross them or whatever. I just told them I would keep clear and not to worry about me.(also telling them exactly where I was going to go) As in most things in life a little clear communication BEFORE things go to shyte keeps things running smoothly.

FOURTH: Hey SMACK, Racers fly a pennant off their stern. NON racers won't have one. So if a cruiser crosses the race area it's pretty obvious he's not in the race. Give up that argument. COLREGS rule.

Some years ago I was sailing out of Mill Creek off Whitehall Bay by Annap. I'm coming out the very narrow entrance in a 43' ketch. Here come a horde of Lightnings right at me b/c some numbskull set a mark up the Bay not terribly far from Red 2. I can't change course much b/c of my draft. I'm on STB, they are (mostly) on port. I know at least one boat had to tack to miss me and I got off the "course" as quick as I could, but that's life. Too bad.
That said I will try to avoid tangling w/ a known race course esp. since Naptown is always having some championship or another. 
And I do pity the poor captain coming down the BAY last year during the Gov Cup in which the wind was out of the South meaning all the (60 some)boats were tacking back and forth across the freaking bay. Would not have wanted to have been him!


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

sailordave said:


> But the general consensus of the offshore crew I race w/ was that a lot of racers don't have the all around skills that offshore racers/cruisers do. And I'm talking stuff like knots, anchoring, navigation, RADIO protocol, etc.


Excellent point. Many, including me, have stated that races makes better sailors and better sailors make better cruisers. Perhaps there is a corollary: cruising makes better seamen and better seamen make better racers, especially when something goes wrong.

Certainly I learned to tie a bowline small and fast racing foredeck, but it would not surprise me if some of the afterguard would struggle. I know I have seen some interesting approaches to cleating a line. *grin*



sailordave said:


> If you got 5 toots from a "too nervous" tug captain... well then I would suggest that all sailors, not just the racers, get on the freaking VHF, talk to said commercial traffic and come to an understanding.


Most of the inshore racing I have participated in has a radio silence rule. If you talk to anyone but the RC you drop out. That may not be sensible but it's reality.



sailordave said:


> COLREGS rule.


This thread got so much better since I found the "ignore" button. Civility and thought reign.

This week in Annapolis is going to be crazy. Lots of Wednesday night beer cans running on Thursday due to the holiday, the normal Thursday night J boats, the leftover cruisers and day boaters from the 4th, all on the Severn and Chesapeake along with the commercial traffic.


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

SVAuspicious said:


> ...snip...
> 
> Most of the inshore racing I have participated in has a radio silence rule. If you talk to anyone but the RC you drop out. That may not be sensible but it's reality.
> 
> ...snip...


I've never heard of such a radio silence rule. Makes very little sense to me.

We monitor our RC channel during a race and are encouraged to report any obstructions (commercial tugs etc) coming up or down the Hudson where we race. The RC VHF channel is an aid to the safety of the fleet.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

I've raced under the same radio silence rules, and the purpose is to prevent any vessel from having any type of unfair advantage from outside the vessel. That may seem ridiculous but in past it has been the norm for many things including ocean races where outside weather forecasting could give a racer an advantage.

If you're still racing under that type of rule, it might pay to raise the point with the RC, that safety communications should be exempted.

OTOH, if I hail a tow "stand your course we are close but will clear you by 100 yards" well...maybe that gives me an unfair advantage, as opposed to simply having to deal with traffic and duck behind it.

Toss it around to your fellow racers and the RC.


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

hellosailor said:


> I've raced under the same radio silence rules, and the purpose is to prevent any vessel from having any type of unfair advantage from outside the vessel. That may seem ridiculous but in past it has been the norm for many things including ocean races where outside weather forecasting could give a racer an advantage.
> 
> If you're still racing under that type of rule, it might pay to raise the point with the RC, that safety communications should be exempted.
> 
> ...


We've had those discussions and got nowhere..

Given that a radio broadcast on the race channel should, in theory, be available to all boats who have their radios on, I can't, personally, see how radio communication - on either VHF16 or the race channel - could give someone an "advantage". As I see it, someone could be calling out the weather at the top mark and I don't see why I should be penalised for listening to the broadcast and taking advantage of it just become some stupid bugger doesn't have his radio on (which could get him disqualified under the same rules anyway).

I must be missing something... but you're right. Them is the rules, conflicting as they are, and we must live with them.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Hartley, you definitely ARE missing something.

"Given that a radio broadcast on the race channel should, in theory, be available to all ... I can't, personally, see how radio communication...could give someone an "advantage"."

Well, even on the Titanic businessmen routinely sent and received telegraphs that were in code, often in "clear" code or allegory. This same unsophisticated type of code is driving Homeland Insecurity and the NSA crazy today, because there's no way to crack it.

I hail a tug (real or imaginary) and say to hold your course, I'll clear you by 200 yards. Translation: That's a secret message to my team boat that I'm tacking in 200 yards, cover and block for me. Or, I say I'll clear you by 1/4 mile. Translation: I'll block _for you._

No teams? Oh, right, you can do favors for your buddy anyhow, or for a boat in another class. The point is, secret messages can be hidden in plain sight, or sound. Considering that that was routine business practice not so very long ago, it is not inconceivable that "gentlemen" would remember that ANY communication, may not be what it seems.

Considering that someone on a boat could just send a text message and no one would be the wiser...it might just be time to stop worrying about VHFs though. And perhaps if you put it exactly that way to your RC, they'd respond with the immortal words of Homer Simpson: "D'OH!"


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

sailordave said:


> And I do pity the poor captain coming down the BAY last year during the Gov Cup in which the wind was out of the South meaning all the (60 some)boats were tacking back and forth across the freaking bay. Would not have wanted to have been him!


That was a fun race in some good breeze. But there were 141 boats tacking down the bay.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

sailordave said:


> FOURTH: Hey SMACK, Racers fly a pennant off their stern. NON racers won't have one. So if a cruiser crosses the race area it's pretty obvious he's not in the race. Give up that argument. COLREGS rule.


I would if I was wrong.

I'm not arguing a situation where everything is perfectly clear and everyone's intentions are blatantly evident. That may be the world you sail in - but even the last few posts illustrate that's typically not the case.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

I've yet to participate in a race where the SI's specifically said "radio silence" or imposed any kind of penalty for using the VHF. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, just that I haven't dealt with it yet.


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

hellosailor said:


> Hartley, you definitely ARE missing something.
> 
> "Given that a radio broadcast on the race channel should, in theory, be available to all ... I can't, personally, see how radio communication...could give someone an "advantage"."
> 
> ...


Secret messages? On the VHF?? 

Someone would actually be stupid enough to base their race tactics on a "buddy" (not the opposition) actually receiving the tugboat conversation (VHF 12 here) and understanding the "code" when by the Rules they should be listening on the race channel (VHF 73 here) or VHF16 instead? Why bother, when all one of the crew needs to do (usually the guy down below getting the drinks) is call their opposite number on their cell phone?? Wow! I hope you're kidding...

Again I say, I can't, personally, see how a radio communication broadcast to a fleet could give someone an "advantage".. and add "especially when other forms of inter-yacht communication exist and are freely carried".


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## sailordave (Jun 26, 2001)

zz4gta said:


> That was a fun race in some good breeze. But there were 141 boats tacking down the bay.


Oh yeah, THAT'S RIGHT. Gotta include all the boats that started at 3pm in the B, C, NS classes. 
I was only counting the big boats.
Those of us in the A 0,1,2 classes kept the usual 6pm start.

(Of course now I have my own hole in the water that rates 126 so if I were to race her I'd be doing the 3pm start)


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## sailordave (Jun 26, 2001)

> understanding.
> Most of the inshore racing I have participated in has a radio silence rule. If you talk to anyone but the RC you drop out. That may not be sensible but it's reality.


I've not seen a race w/ this in the SI's. Of course "outside" assistance is not kosher, but I can't see why hailing a RORO coming up the Patapsco River to assure him of your intentions would disqualify one. Just as I think getting 5 toots being cause for disqualification is absurd also. (never heard of that rule either)


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

NOT ALL RACERS have penet flags or equal hanging off the back stay/end of the boat in ALL races, so the comment regarding this, is false, as is the radio silence rule per say. 

Also the 5 toot rule, well it applies in some area's, a way of making sure ALL are being safe in some area's that have a lot of commercial traffic. Puget sound has something or someone crossing your bow every 15 min or less. One has to be on the look out quite often.

The radio silence rule, well, that can be good or bad. Some races such as Swiftsure near me in May, one HAS to listen to the radio for hourly updates of commercial traffic, given off in 5 mi intervals on the hour by the 3 US/Canada CG equals saying "what" BIG boat is where, heading speed etc. But generally speaking, many do say radio silence overall. But if one needs to radio a tug or equal in a shipping lane from a safety standpoint, one should do so, just as our puget sound overall rules say, turn a motor on, take notes of the when where etc so you show you did not use said motor to advantage while clearing a commercial boat in a shipping lane.

Why are there some comments re beginning sailor being so bad? we all started at the bottom, need to work up. Sailing is like many things in life, we can learn and do better as we get older etc. Hopefully ALL of us not matter what the endeavor, will also learn things we thought we knew as we get older too.

Marty


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

sailordave said:


> Just as I think getting 5 toots being cause for disqualification is absurd also. (never heard of that rule either)


Well, that's what you might think. The alternative *here, in this location,* is to have the CG shut down all racing on Puget Sound. Again, SN location myopia.  Not all sailing venues share the same characteristics including volume of commercial and military traffic. If you'd like, I could go cut and paste out of the SI's for pretty much any sponsoring yacht club in the PNW and the Lower Mainland of BC. If you don't have to worry about it, that's great. You're lucky. Blessings... count'em.


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## jaschrumpf (Jun 22, 2002)

I'd hate to be thought of as an anti-racer, as puddinlegs and BubbleheadMD intimated a while back. I don't see how "micro-sail-management" is an incorrect description of an avid racer, though I can see that "control freak" may have been a bit harsh. Additionally, my way is always "law-abiding," with neither alcohol nor intentional disregard for the rules of the road being a part of my cruising.

However, I must say that so far this season I've seen racers on the Patapsco River get the five toots three times from rather large freighters -- twice from one boat. Those signals were then accompanied by TWO VHF calls on channel 16 to the race committee boat, which didn't answer. Was the race boat not listening? Just didn't want to answer? I sure can't say. One has to admit, though, that not responding to signals from a freighter navigating a tight channel is not exactly demonstrating a proper regard for the rules.

But again, not long ago I was returning from an evening sail on the Patapsco and found it necessary to cross the race course of a large group running downwind under spinnakers. We were all very considerate of each other; I went into irons once to allow a racer clear passage, and we waved to each other as we passed. Very friendly, "hail-fellow-well-met" and all.

Those conditions were quite different from a time last year when I was fighting 25kt winds and chop single handed, and had to do the same to avoid perhaps being run down by a racer. They might have missed me by three feet or so if I'd stood on, but since none of the seven or so souls on board her seemed to notice me, I figured I'd burden myself a bit by hauling wind and letting her pass.

This might be the event I posted on that BubbleheadMd regarded as "rather denigrating comments about racers." If so, then yeah -- I was being "rather denigrating" at that time -- but only about that racer, not really racers in general. Well, maybe about racers in general, given their admitted tendency to see three feet of clearance like a cruiser would thirty feet, and if it bugs you that I stand six inches away from you in an elevator, well, that's your problem, isn't it?

Sorry, being denigrating again. Anyway: five toots. Three times.

Is it me, or is it them?


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

jaschrumpf said:


> Those signals were then accompanied by TWO VHF calls on channel 16 to the race committee boat, which didn't answer. Was the race boat not listening?


Probably not. *sigh* While the RC _should_ be listening to 16 and 13 in addition to whatever channel they are using for fleet comms the reality seems to be that most are only on the fleet channel, and how the heck are any of us supposed to know what that is unless we stumble on it?


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## jaschrumpf (Jun 22, 2002)

SVAuspicious said:


> Probably not. *sigh* While the RC _should_ be listening to 16 and 13 in addition to whatever channel they are using for fleet comms the reality seems to be that most are only on the fleet channel, and how the heck are any of us supposed to know what that is unless we stumble on it?


Is it far-fetched to think that if you've been five-tooted twice in five minutes, someone from the tooter might want to talk with you?


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

jaschrumpf said:


> Is it far-fetched to think that if you've been five-tooted twice in five minutes, someone from the tooter might want to talk with you?


I don't it's far-fetched at all. I was describing my experience, not what I think is right or what should be.

Stupid per se isn't illegal, although RC is supposed to at least be monitoring 16 and 13 would be prudent as well.


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## BentSailor (Nov 10, 2010)

SVAuspicious said:


> I don't it's far-fetched at all. I was describing my experience, not what I think is right or what should be.
> 
> Stupid per se isn't illegal, although RC is supposed to at least be monitoring 16 and 13 would be prudent as well.


It isn't that hard to monitor at least just the fleet channel and 16. Hell, the cheap hand-held VHF I picked up for my kids so they could listen to the freighter traffic they see passing from our beaches coming into Newcastle has has the ability to monitor two channels easily (16 & a user-chosen channel) and three channels with some minor fiddling (that I personally have never bothered with). Cost me less than $100.


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## kjango (Apr 18, 2008)

I hate everything....I wish I had never been born . AND......I ALWAYS sail under the stern of anything that gets in my way .... and I always give way......NO EXCEPTIONS Guess what ...I've never had a close call....just sayin


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

jaschrumpf said:


> I'd hate to be thought of as an anti-racer, as puddinlegs and BubbleheadMD intimated a while back. I don't see how "micro-sail-management" is an incorrect description of an avid racer, though I can see that "control freak" may have been a bit harsh. Additionally, my way is always "law-abiding," with neither alcohol nor intentional disregard for the rules of the road being a part of my cruising.
> 
> However, I must say that so far this season I've seen racers on the Patapsco River get the five toots three times from rather large freighters -- twice from one boat. Those signals were then accompanied by TWO VHF calls on channel 16 to the race committee boat, which didn't answer. Was the race boat not listening? Just didn't want to answer? I sure can't say. One has to admit, though, that not responding to signals from a freighter navigating a tight channel is not exactly demonstrating a proper regard for the rules.
> 
> ...


Jas-

You have legitimate complaints against the racers in your area. As usual, it's a bummer that a few have to create a crummy reputation for the rest of us, and I'm sorry if this behavior is common in your area.

All I ask is that you swap out your "paint roller" for a Sharpie pen when casting blame, and remember that we ain't all the people in your river.


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

Jas, what you describe would get a race shut down on Puget Sound. If there's ANY problem with commercial traffic, the club hears about it. Yes, as described, it's the racer's and race committee's fault. It does us all no good at all. And again, don't be infected with SN location myopia. As BubbleHead said, your river seems to be very different than what's at all acceptable out this way. 5 toots, you're done. 2 sets of 5 toots, the race is probably done for awhile while the sponsoring club gets an earful and has a review of their protocols, etc..


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## Geoff54 (Oct 30, 2011)

smackdaddy said:


> That's right. But, again, the issue is that even under the auspices of "prudent seamanship" a "cruiser" shouldn't enter an active, marked race course...an area where RRS rules (that he knows nothing about) are in play and superseding the COLREGS. That's just not smart or cool - regardless of the territorial rights one has on the water.


I just came across this and it reminded me of this little conversation 
A Thames barge (on starboard) runs through the start and I love the way nobody seems in the least concerned - both cool and smart - just as it should be.

Just had to stir Smack one last time


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

smackdaddy said:


> the issue is that even under the auspices of "prudent seamanship" a "cruiser" shouldn't enter an active, marked race course...an area where RRS rules (that he knows nothing about) are in play and superseding the COLREGS. That's just not smart or cool - regardless of the territorial rights one has on the water.


Picking up on this older post since it was quoted above.

The RRS *never* supersede the COLREGS. Never. Not ever. Check with any decent race committee and they'll tell you the same thing.

su·per·sede 
/ˌso͞opərˈsēd/
Verb
Take the place of (a person or thing previously in authority or use); supplant: "the older models have now been superseded".

RRS add additional requirements to those boats engaged in racing but do not in any way absolve racers from being fully compliant with the COLREGS (outside the demarcation line) or the Inland Rules (inside the line).


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## FirstCandC (Mar 26, 2013)

*Why all the angst against racing on Sailnet?*

Because I am too slow!


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

Newbie, asks what a sailboat race is like?

Answer:

At 1pm the start gun goes off. Then we all go that a way for 2 and a half miles. When get there we turn left around a little floaty thingy and then go that a way for 2 and a half miles. When we get there we turn left around a little floaty thingy and then go that a way for 2 and a half miles. At the end we pass the boat with the guy in it that tried to shoot us at 1 pm. 

The fun part is after we finish we all raise little yellow flags. That's the signal to head to the club house and start drinking beer. By 4:30 pm we are drinking beer in the club house and the guys from the boat that tired to shoot us show up. The really cool thing is once we are at the club house we argue most the night away. Who's boat is the fastest? Who finished where based on time and PHRF? Which leads me to my favorite quote directed at the guys from the boat that tried to shoot us, "hey [email protected] for brains, you can't add or subtract." Then the whole crowd turns on the guys from the boat that tried to shoot us as they announce the results. This just fuels more drinking, whining and excuses. 


After some time time passes, One by one the racers ask each other, Did you break anything expensive? This just fuels a new round of drinking and disagreements. My spinnaker pole was more expensive than yours! Ya, but I broke more stuff than you did!

In the wee hours of the morning as the racers are stumbling out of the club house they can be overheard saying, See ya next week Joe. Ya Bill, I going to kick your [email protected]@, see you next week! 


This is done on a weekly basis


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## Greyhound37 (Mar 25, 2012)

People who have car racing experience (road course) are better drivers
Sailors who have racing experience are better sailors


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

What I don't like is when the cruiser deliberately flops over on starboard to cross the fleet, then tacks or gybes back after they're through. That's a dick move. If you're not comfortable driving through a crowded start on port, just drive around it. 

+1 to Greyhound. Unfortunately the cruisers that I run into set their sails for a close reach and just turn the wheel. No other lines get adjusted. I know that's not all cruisers, but it's typically what I see on the bay.


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## Geoff54 (Oct 30, 2011)

SVAuspicious said:


> Picking up on this older post since it was quoted above.
> 
> The RRS *never* supersede the COLREGS. Never. Not ever. Check with any decent race committee and they'll tell you the same thing.
> 
> ...


I think everybody agreed last time round... well ALMOST everybody


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## Geoff54 (Oct 30, 2011)

Greyhound37 said:


> People who have car racing experience (road course) are better drivers
> Sailors who have racing experience are better sailors


That's a bit strong - it depends on your definition of "Better".

I can agree that a racer will tend to do a better job optimizing whatever device they are racing because they practice just that. But I can't really agree with "racers are better"; That's too broad a brush. Sure a racer might be able to clip that apex or trim that sail a little better but does that really make him/her "better"?

To stay with sailing, there is much more to sailing than ultimate speed or pushing that last little bit. Can a racer anchor better than an experience cruiser? Or maneuver better than the charter fleet worker that wiggles in and out a dock all the time? Or have better long range weather knowledge than the ocean voyager? The answer to these and many other things is, "Maybe but maybe not".

It's more an issue of having the desire to be good at something and being willing to take the time to learn and practice, rather than whether that is done via racing. Most of the idiots you see out there just want to get out on the water without being willing to put in the effort required to do it properly.

Wanna race? I get to pick the discipline and equipment. As I get to chose what we race I will probably be faster but that doesn't make me a better at it in any circumstances other than racing.

Racers tend to see everything through the prism of racing and that is a narrow focus. In my drawer I have a tee shirt that a friend gave me. It reads, "The Older I get, The Faster I Was", so I know a little of what I speak.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Geoff54 said:


> I just came across this and it reminded me of this little conversation
> A Thames barge (on starboard) runs through the start and I love the way nobody seems in the least concerned - both cool and smart - just as it should be.
> 
> Just had to stir Smack one last time


Gaaaaaaaaa - you bastard!

As to so͞opərˈsēd-ing or waiving or whatever, all I (or, more appropriately, the court) can say is this:



> The history of the COLREGS shows that they were enacted because of the need to establish a code of international rules of the road for maritime traffic throughout the world. See H.R. Rep. No. 447, 95th Cong., 1st Sess. 1977, reprinted in 1977 U.S.C.C.A.N. 509. However, nothing in their history, or in the public policy issues that led to their enactment, indicates that they were meant to regulate voluntary private sports activity in which the participants have waived their application and in which no interference with nonparticipating maritime traffic is implicated. *Therefore, by entering a regatta with sailing instructions which unambiguously set forth special, binding "rules of the road," the participants waive conflicting COLREGS and must sail in accordance with the agreed-upon rules.*


I think we've always argued this from different perspectives (e.g. - racers and/or RCs know what's going on so it's not an issue). The bottom line, however, is that it's far from settled law - and this decision regarding these "special, binding" rules which allow for the "waiving of conflicting COLREGS" complicates things quite a bit from a legal standpoint.

I've only argued that this complication leaves the door open for additional litigation. We'll just have to wait for the lawsuit and see what happens.


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## Geoff54 (Oct 30, 2011)

smackdaddy said:


> Gaaaaaaaaa - you bastard!
> We'll just have to wait for the lawsuit and see what happens.


Damn, are you going to sue me? I was just having a little fun.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Geoff54 said:


> Damn, are you going to sue me? I was just having a little fun.


Heh-heh. I have actually enjoyed this thread.

Now stop stirring before I smack you with the spoon.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"an area where RRS rules (that he knows nothing about) are in play and superseding the COLREGS."
My how the world must have changed. When USSA was still the USYRU, it was widely and commonly known that COLREGS ALWAYS WERE IN EFFECT and the racing rules of sailing were always a secondary agreement among gentlemen racing, never LAW. 

Of course back then, "ungentlemently conduct" was also official grounds to have someone barred from racing. Not just disqualified from one race, but barred for the series, the season, or life.


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