# Reefing line size?



## saltypat (Oct 8, 2006)

On our new old boat (Endeavour 33) we have just obtained a new mainsail. The boat already had fairly new halyards, and the main halyard looks like 7/16. 

Our reefing lines are really old and grungy- they look like 1/2 inch.... we boat on the Chesapeake, so I don't anticipate ever using more than the first set of reefing points. I am going to replace the line- I see no reason why it should be any bigger than the halyard, and I am wondering if I could go smaller than the halyard? (I think it is a reefing line which should be permamently attached above the clew to the reef so it is ready for use)

Any advice welcome, and thank you---- saltypat


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Saltypat-

The reefing lines need to be as strong as the halyard, since they have essentially the same loads to deal with. If the new halyards are high-tech lines, and the reefing lines are not, then it is very possible that the halyards would be thinner than the reefing lines. However, I doubt the new halyard is a high-tech line, like T900—just from the diameter and description. 

The reefing lines should be attached to the boom, not the reef cringle... since it needs to pull the reefing clew down and out towards the end of the boom.


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## saltypat (Oct 8, 2006)

Thanks sailingdog-
I know the line comes out of the track at the aft end of the boom- then I think it would go through the reef cringle and then down again to the aft end of the boom..... but I see no special place to tie it off - our mast has solid hardware loops all along the bottom (fore and aft), such as you use to attach the traveler, etc. I was thinking of tieing the reefing line at the aft end to one of these with a bowline.... and then when it was time to reef I pull on the reefing line at the mast (after putting the foreward reefing cringle onto a "claw" fittng whihc is on the boat.
The other track with a reefing line appears to come out at the mast but not aft- I think it is jammed up inside (I am going to look a little harder at it tomorrow). In a temporary worse case sceanrion I might cut most of it off and tie a messenger on it for futre consideration of the problem.
I am also going to take my camera over and take some pics of the reefing problems, etc.

Thanks for keeping me pointed in the right direction! Saltypat


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

saltypat said:


> Thanks sailingdog-
> I know the line comes out of the track at the aft end of the boom- then I think it would go through the reef cringle and then down again to the aft end of the boom..... but I see no special place to tie it off - our mast has solid hardware loops all along the bottom (fore and aft), such as you use to attach the traveler, etc. I was thinking of tieing the reefing line at the aft end to one of these with a bowline....


It doesn't go back to the aft end of the boom...but straight down to the boom. There is probably a padeye located straight below the reefing cringle, if you were to bring it down to the boom. That is where you should tie it off. 


> and then when it was time to reef I pull on the reefing line at the mast (after putting the foreward reefing cringle onto a "claw" fittng whihc is on the boat.


The "claw" is actually called a tack hook...and is meant for holding the reefing tack cringle. 


> The other track with a reefing line appears to come out at the mast but not aft- I think it is jammed up inside (I am going to look a little harder at it tomorrow). In a temporary worse case sceanrion I might cut most of it off and tie a messenger on it for futre consideration of the problem.
> I am also going to take my camera over and take some pics of the reefing problems, etc.


Most booms have three or four sets of sheaves/lines going back in them. One is the outhaul for the mainsail. The others are usually for reefing lines. Generally, the center-most or one of the center ones is used for the outhaul, and the outermost ones are used for the reefing lines.



> Thanks for keeping me pointed in the right direction! Saltypat


Glad to help.


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## saltypat (Oct 8, 2006)

I am beginning to see the some light. A padeye would be a fitting mounted on the side of the mast I think, and I and pretty sure I do not have such a piece of hardware.. (we could add it). This why I was thinking of going temporarily under the mast)

Also, we do have 3 sheaves, and the one to starboard is in use for the old reefing line. The port sheave is empty. 

So, the middle sheave which has a line coming out of it at the mast, the one I do not see an exit line for on the aft end of the boom, might be the outhaul. 

Pulling on that outhaul should tighten the tension of the foot of the sail? If that is so, I am not sure when I put tension on it what it is affecting somewhere to add the tension. I think the tack on the boom is fixed (maybe not), so is it llikely moving something else at the end of the boom??

(I googled "mainsail outhaul" to see if I could get a quick explanation, but no luck).

Hope I am not too far off course!

Thanks again, Saltypat


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## saltypat (Oct 8, 2006)

Want to add:
I just looked a bit on the web- it appears an outhaul will be adjusted usually at the clew end of the boom- so now I am back to again wondering what was the line I have sticking out on the middle sheave near the mast...

Clueless but still working on it! Saltypat


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

saltypat said:


> I am beginning to see the some light. A padeye would be a fitting mounted on the side of the *mast* I think, and I and pretty sure I do not have such a piece of hardware.. (we could add it). This why I was thinking of going temporarily under the *mast*)


 I would go around the boom, but through a padeye on the bottom of the boom, to keep the rope located in the proper spot. *BTW, the horizontal aluminum piece is a BOOM not a MAST, which is the big vertical stick it is attached to. *_Please use the correct terms, or things get really confusing and you really do sound like an idiot... which probably isn't what you want. For instance, how do you go under a mast??? the base of the mast is solidly connected to the boat... and in many cases goes down inside the boat to connect to the keel._



> Also, we do have 3 sheaves, and the one to starboard is in use for the old reefing line. The port sheave is empty.


As I said above, the port and starboard ones would traditionally be used for the first and second reefs, and the center one for the outhaul on a three-sheave setup.



> So, the middle sheave which has a line coming out of it at the *mast*, the one I do not see an exit line for on the aft end of the boom, might be the outhaul.


Is there a line attached to the clew of the mainsail? If not, there really needs to be one. A photo of the setup would help, since it may be something weird.



> Pulling on that outhaul should tighten the tension of the foot of the sail? If that is so, I am not sure when I put tension on it what it is affecting somewhere to add the tension. I think the tack on the boom is fixed (maybe not), so is it llikely moving something else at the end of the boom??


The outhaul is used to pull the clew of the mainsail out along the boom, tightening the foot of the mainsail.



> (I googled "mainsail outhaul" to see if I could get a quick explanation, but no luck).
> 
> Hope I am not too far off course!
> 
> Thanks again, Saltypat


Try googling *"define:0uthaul"*, which will get you the definition of the word. LINK

_P.S. I cheated and had to type that define term with a "0" instead of an "o" since it was trying to turn the ":" and the "o" into smiley face... _


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## Gary M (May 9, 2006)

Another option to secure the end of the reefing line to the boom is to tie around the boom with a bowline.
This is how I do it as I believe it is stronger that a pad eye screwed or riveted to the boom. You do need either a loose footed main or small slots that are sometimes put in mains with an attached foot so you can get the line around the boom.

I would go with 3/8" line, something like Stayset should work. 

Gary


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Gary-

I wasn't suggesting using the padeye to secure the line, just to keep the line in proper position.


Gary M said:


> Another option to secure the end of the reefing line to the boom is to tie around the boom with a bowline.
> This is how I do it as I believe it is stronger that a pad eye screwed or riveted to the boom. You do need either a loose footed main or small slots that are sometimes put in mains with an attached foot so you can get the line around the boom.
> 
> I would go with 3/8" line, something like Stayset should work.
> ...


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## sailordave (Jun 26, 2001)

saltypat said:


> we boat on the Chesapeake, so I don't anticipate ever using more than the first set of reefing points.
> 
> I am going to replace the line- I see no reason why it should be any bigger than the halyard, and I am wondering if I could go smaller than the halyard? (I think it is a reefing line which should be permamently attached above the clew to the reef so it is ready for use)
> 
> Any advice welcome, and thank you---- saltypat


Well.... I have lost track of how many times I have been double reefed on Chesapeake Bay in a variety of boats from 30' to 44'... 
You definitely want this capability.

Lots of good advice here. I will add that depending on the shape of your mainsail, your second reef line MAY need a cheek block on the side of the boom to create the proper angle of pull prior to going aft to the sheave.

IE, the reefing line will be tied around the boom directly below the second reef cringle, goes up to the cringle, through, and down to a cheek block located just aft of where the cringle would rest on the boom, THEN aft to the sheave to pass through the boom. Reason is as you first tension the reefing line you want it to pull DOWN and as the cringle approaches the boom you want more of an aftward pull to keep tension as an outhaul would.

I'm relatively "local" to the Bay; depending on where you are I could take a look and maybe do some heavy weather sailing w/ you!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

You definitely want to have both first and second reefs if at all possible, but you need to fix the outhaul as well. Sailing in heavier winds often requires that you depower the mainsail. The outhaul is one of the primary controls for doing so.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

sailordave said:


> Well.... I'm relatively "local" to the Bay; depending on where you are I could take a look and maybe do some heavy weather sailing w/ you!


Hey Sailordave, I'd take you up on the heavyweather sailing on "the bay".I have some reefing set up questions. I was discussing with my wife this past weekend how we should come out and get some experience with the boat under heavy wind. She said it was a good idea but bring some experienced people. We keep our catamaran in Shady Side and go out every weekend if at all possible. I can be ready on a moments notice(small craft warnings) to go out. I love it when the winds are around 20kts our boat just begins to enjoy the bay.

And saltypat you are welcome to come along too!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Seaking98-

Just remember that on a multihull, you generally reef for the strength of the wind gusts, not the average wind speeds. On a monohull, you reef for the average wind speeds and handle the gusts by having the boat heel over...which your cat can't do. What kind of catamaran do you have???


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## Gladrags1 (Apr 9, 2003)

Another consideration for what size of line to get for reefing is how it would feel in your hands when working with it. A thinner line is not only weaker but would cut more into the hand. I'd go with the size that was on the boat.

Tod


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

sailingdog said:


> Seaking98-
> 
> Just remember that on a multihull, you generally reef for the strength of the wind gusts, not the average wind speeds. On a monohull, you reef for the average wind speeds and handle the gusts by having the boat heel over...which your cat can't do. What kind of catamaran do you have???


We have a Voyage 470. 27'beam 1300 sq ft. total sail


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## sailordave (Jun 26, 2001)

Hey SeaKing... Sorry I didn't reply to your last post. Been kinda busy.... AND I went on an overnight to Oxford w/ the lady friend... 

I'll keep an eye on the NOAA site for the forecast.... That's a big Cat.

I took a Leopard 47 to Lauderdale a few years ago after the Boat Show... 47' x 24' Different kind of boat all together from what I was used to.


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