# Lost at sea



## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

So, the story is like this:

A 72 year old Dutch decided to Join is wife that is in Uruguay sailing on his big and heavy motorsailor (13m).

Near the Brazilian shores (175nm) he decided he is lost, probably a non function GPS, its boat is in perfect conditions but he decided to call is wife to say he is lost. The wife in panic calls the Dutch embassy that calls the Brasilian Navy.




























A search and rescue is deployed and they found the guy. The rest is not clear but it seems that they had said to the guy where he was and he followed his route.

http://arabnews.com/world/article538557.ece?service=print

FAB - BUSCA E RESGATE- Nova aeronave da FAB encontra veleiro holandês

Do You find this normal? Who is going to pay the big costs of a search and rescue mission? Probably the Brazilian people.

About a month before I was almost tempted to post about a rescue of all the crew of a sailboat that the only problem seamed to be a non function engine and a scared crew. By the photos the sea did not seem particularly bad and the boat was not in risk of sinking.











Incidents like these are each year more frequent as more and more people decide to go offshore, many times in boats that are in bad condition or without enough knowledge and experience. If something goes wrong they call for help, even if their live is not at risk.

https://www.piersystem.com/go/doc/830/1046187/

http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2011/jan/24/americans-sailboat-rescued/

This is going to turn bad for all of us that are responsible and we are going all to pay for this situation, in insurance prices and who knows if not in rescue costs, if needed. Sooner or later they are going to put the insurance companies paying rescues and then we would have forbidden insurance prices and mandatory insurance.

Do you think I am wrong?


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## vega1860 (Dec 18, 2006)

Never fear. The Government will take care of everything. Mandatory licensing and insurance, higher taxes and onerous regulations will put cruising out of reach for all but the most wealthy. Problem solved.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

PCP said:


> This is going to turn bad for all of us that are responsible and we are going all to pay for this situation, in insurance prices and who knows if not in rescue costs, if needed. Sooner or later they are going to put the insurance companies paying rescues and then we would have forbidden insurance prices and mandatory insurance.
> 
> Do you think I am wrong?


Try explaining this to all the people on this forum who respond to new boaters who want to sail around the world that all they need is a boat and just GO with no training on how to respond in an emergency or even how to know if they are in an emergency situation to begin with.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

vega1860 said:


> Never fear. The Government will take care of everything. Mandatory licensing and insurance, higher taxes and onerous regulations will put cruising out of reach for all but the most wealthy. Problem solved.


Yes, unless there is another way to prevent unfit sailors and not seaworthy or badly prepared boats to go out on the deep blue, just to cry for help if something goes wrong or the sea gets nasty.

Each rescue costs more than the value of many boats and the ones that are paying it are not the ones that sail them, but everybody.

Take a look at the big boat with the engine out. They are offshore and they sail with a dingy on the deck? What kind of sailors are they? An they have lost the life-raft overboard? In a such a big boat they can't have the liferaft properly stored?

On the first movie we can see that they are sailing....but on a storm with a furled big genoa? Were is the storm sail? Even if they had one, type of storm bag, how could they deploy it safely over a dinghy that was not even properly secured?

All this crazy stuff that shows that those guys had a lot to learn before had the right to be there. Or do you mean, do you think it is fair for you to pay, now in tax, later through those mandatory insurances, for every dude, prepared or not, to have the right to put himself and the others at risk?

Regards

Paulo


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## Boasun (Feb 10, 2007)

It is neigh on to impossible to be lost at sea while your vessel is operable. Sailing East or West you will eventually come to land. Going North or South you will eventually come to much colder land. 
But if you go into panic mode, then your confusion factor increases expotentually and you will think that you are lost. Gesh! Look at any atlas or Globe and you will start to understand what I'm trying to say. 

And adding to the above; Once you are in sight of land you only need to Identify where you are at and do coastal piloting to the nearest port.


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## Mirari (Sep 13, 2006)

The guys calling for rescue are obviously a real bunch of clowns that had no business being offshore. I can not believe from the footage that that boat could not sail to safe port. Even if they were shipping water there were 5 aboard to man the pumps. I hope the owner skippper is not covered insurance wise. He has no business collecting on a boat he abandoned in that condition and that we will all have to pay for by higher insurance rates and taxes due to expenditures by the Coast Guard.

I myself was once rescued between Bermuda and Nantucket but in my case the boat sank from under us in the middle of the night and we did not deploy the EPIRB until we were in the raft and out of all other options.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Regarding the moment to call for help I remember that once Cammas, the one that is now skipping the French boat on the VOR, capsized his big trimaran on a transat solo race on a storm with winds that picked 70K at the middle of the Atlantic.

The French rescue services received a call at 9 AM from him telling them that he had capsized. They asked if all was alright and he says yes, the boat is upside down, but no problem with the flotation. They asked when it has happened and Cammas said at 3 AM in the morning. The Rescue guys asked him to repeat again and he repeats 3 AM. The rescue guys could not believe and ask him why he was calling only now. Cammas said that he was in no danger and that he did not wanted to spoil their rest for nothing.

This story, from a relative young sailor that is already a legend, shows what is respect for the others, absence of panic and seamanship, even on a capsized boat.

Regards

Paulo


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## beachmont (Sep 18, 2011)

If you go hiking and call for help. when they decide you were not properly prepared they make you the bill


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

*It is not an easy problem to solve*



vega1860 said:


> Never fear. The Government will take care of everything. Mandatory licensing and insurance, higher taxes and onerous regulations will put cruising out of reach for all but the most wealthy. Problem solved.


I agree with you that government legistlation is the way to go. I have my official Canadian boat operator's card and it means nothing except that I passed a multiple-choice test. On the other hand, I don't think it makes any sense to have the government decide who is capable and who it not - how are they to know the expertise level, common sense, and toughness of those going offshore?

There was a lot of fuss about Laura Dekker, the Dutch teenager who wanted to sail around the world. The Dutch government even took her into care for a year (out of the parent's control). We crossed paths with her this year and she very centered and a very capable and was doing just fine. What would saying he had to be 18 or 21 do? You would miss the well-qualified 17 year olds and allow any fool who is 22 (or 55) to jump right in.

Ultimately you have to rely on the responsibility of the individual - not something that people are used to in our society, but the sea has been setting the rules a lot longer than current attitudes about no peanut butter at school have existed. I know if you want to head off towards the North Pole or do similar treks in the far north you have to put up a bond to pay for SAR - I guess this is a form of insurance not for the individual but for the society. Not sure how it would work for sailors (or even if I believe in it), but at least it would mean that everyone is not responsible for the bad decisions (or even just bad luck) of the individual. I know when I head offshore I don't want to give up my EPIRB and be totally self-reliant, but I am not putting other demands on government/society like for roads, schools, health care, although I still pay taxes toward those things.

It is a really complex question, but I think it has to start (but probably not end) with the individual taking responsibilty for their decisions and, I agree, we should be saying to people that they should just buy a boat and go - unless we also tell them to not take an EPIRB, sat phone, or anything similar that would call for help.


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## nolatom (Jun 29, 2005)

Man, it's a slippery slope though when we/they/someone tries to define worthy versus unworthy SAR calls for reimbursement purposes afterward. Is abandoning/getting rescued from a seaworthy hull and rig (my old man used to say, "kid, the boat's tougher than you are") enough? Torn sails (how many)? What if what's shredded is the storm jib and trysail? Dismasted hull? Parted stay? Steering failure? Fuel spilled in the interior? Seasickness to the point of dehydration and mega-fatigue?

Look, I agree the motorsailer ketch looks fine, and not having a nav fix doesn't mean "lost at sea" to me, what a joke. But the Coast Guard is going to continue to answer these calls, it's what they do. Should they decide if they want their money back? Or some other agency? Or leave it to the hull insurers? Or you have to pay for injury or (God forbid) death or loss of boat or aircraft by the rescuers?

Easier to mock than to come up with a system that makes sense. And then we have more regulation, bureaucracy, and less individual freedom (though yes, the latter is often abused.

I just don't think this is as simple as it seems to us typing at dry desks.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Have another one. On this one the sea is a bit worse but the boat is not at risk. Well sailed and running downwind with a bit of sail I am quite sure that would be perfectly alright. With an floating anchor and pointing to the wind should also be perfectly alright. I believe that the boat could even be sailed against the wind and at least be maintained stationary. Of course, not with a big genoa, but with an appropriated front sail.

The skipper has an injured harm but he injured the harm in the storm and I fail to understand why he had not a rigged stay and a storm sail on it, before the storm, for control. The boat was on a rally so he knew the bad weather was coming and should have *the boat ready before the bad weather*. I don't see any removable stay, so the chances is that he had not one and that is inadmissible on that type of boat with a big Genoa on an ocean crossing.

They all say the boats are making water but the chances are that in a storm a boat will not be completely watertight. I guess that for some some water on the bottom is making water. They say that the pumps were not functioning. How? Both, the manual and the electric? they they not check that before going offshore? What is the chances that both pumps are not working? The manual one is bullet prove, if some maintenance is made.











A British Yacht off Sri Lanka has sunk in the Indian Ocean as reported by Andrew Brook from Yachting Monthly. The yacht which is a Blue Water rally type wasn't able to resist a violent winds in the Indian Ocean...

Keith Harding a 68 years old skipper injured his arm, and he was unable to navigate correctly. He contacted the Falmouth Coastguard in order to receive some medical advices to gain control over the boat again. Unfortunately, the situation aggravated after an hour, and *he wasn't capable of handling the force 11 winds.*

*Keith Harding sent a mayday before Baccus, a Sun Odyssey of 45.2 meters started to sink*. He from Kent and his crew, Colin Clarke from Cambridge and Sieste Hoff from Belgium, were all rescued by a merchant vessel named Maersk Surabaya. ....

In 2007, Mr. Harding along with his wife Susan (pictured above together in Nuku Hiva, French Polynesia) who is now 63 years old started the Blue Water Rally. However, unluckily, due to their old age, they had much health related issues during their time passed in the big blue sea. On many stages, they both had to go back to their country, which is UK, because of illness.

http://www.blueoceanyachting.com/ya...-off-sri-lanka-sinks-in-the-indian-ocean.html

So this is the problem. Now it is "normal" to call a Mayday "before the boat started to sinking". Why as he not waited the storm to pass? The boat was intact, the rig was on. *We should call for a mayday when there is a life-threatening emergency that requires immediate assistance, not before it happens or in a situation where it can happen (or not) such a situation.*

You ask me if someone that calls a mayday on a non life-threatening emergency that does not require immediate assistance should pay its evacuation I would say yes. Otherwise you would have maydays always a non prepared skipper or crew is frightened and want to get out of there.

Regards

Paulo


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## neoxaero (Feb 18, 2010)

Sounds to me like the issue here was actually an over zealous wife... unless of course they guy asked her to call for assistance.


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## sanibel sailor (Jul 4, 2011)

Scariest part is getting off the yacht and onto your "rescue vessel". A guy could actually get hurt doing that.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

With that sea I guess that is more risky than staying on the boat.

Regards

Paulo


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## emoney (Jun 2, 2010)

Great thread, and very topical discussion, since like DRFerron mentioned, we seem to be getting inundated with the "I need to buy a boat and sail around the world and I've only got 4 days to leave. Oh, and I've never stepped foot on any type of boat before". And, like she said, there's then 3 pages of folks chastising anyone that sounds logical and responds with reason. You know, when bottom is a several thousand feet below you, and you're 100 miles from the nearest dirt, there's no time for "oops, maybe I should've listened to emoney". Of course these folks are going to call for help the minute a wave washes over the rail and gets the cockpit cushions wet. I'm in no way a fan of more regulation, however, this problem is going to multiply the more people get laid off from their jobs and decide it's as simple as sailing away from their troubles. There really needs to be some form of formal training and maybe licensing is the way to go (EGAD?!?!). If nothing else, maybe it's time for the insurance companies to say, "Listen, we've reviewed this incident and we believe you abandoned ship way too soon. Sorry, but your loss isn't covered". (of course, that would never work because we'd never see another claim paid). Just these past few weeks, there's been at least 5 new threads started about sailing off into the sunset by brand new sailors........


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## Sabreman (Sep 23, 2006)

> I just don't think this is as simple as it seems to us typing at dry desks.


Agreed.

Yes, there are idiots in every aspect of life, but that doesn't mean that we should politicize or legislate every aspect of life. In the case of rescue at sea, we do it out of humanitarian necessity, out of a moral obligation to our fellow humans. We are morally obligated to help others in need, even if they are stupid. We've all been stupid on land and at sea. _All of us._

Cost? The rescuers are not contractors employed per rescue. They are already on salary waiting, trained for the opportunity to lend assistance; it's why they enter the SAR line of work. The gear is already purchased and the staff is on call; other than fuel costs (a relative pittance) it's a misnomer to think that government rescuers incur extra costs for a mission. They only quote the "cost" to justify future budgets.

I agree that one needs to be properly trained for an endeavor. But if things go wrong, we *all* desire assistance. I doubt that anyone would ever shrug and say "I was stupid, I deserve to die." Let's not fool ourselves, sitting in dry, safe, quiet accommodations. The sea always looks smaller and the wind less severe in a photo. Especially at my desk. 

IMO, the government should not enact unenforceable laws nor should we neglect our fellow humans in need. Instead, perhaps we should as another poster recommended, admonish the newbie boaters to set aside the 'round the world sailing plans and learn the basic skills on a 14' day sailor.


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## BlackFlag (Nov 19, 2011)

OK, I am a new sailor and I even started a thread the other day in which I claim that I will "float away" with my family to the Caribbean! Shame on me!!! DRFerron recommended I begin by reading this thread, which I guess means she is afraid I might call for an unnecessary water rescue while crossing the Gulf. 

I actually LOVE reading stories of adventures at sea, lost at sea, dying at sea, etc. Next to microbiology, that's my favorite book topic. So I enjoyed the story. But...

Are yall afraid of becoming financially liable for rescuing new (or aged) sailors? Do you really want government regulation of the entire globe, including the oceans? 

I know some people want to call a govnt to come save them, and it looks like others want to call the govnt to save them from people who they suspect might call a govnt to come same them. How many sailors are really statists with the govnt on speed-dial? I thought it was for more independently minded people.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

BlackFlag said:


> I actually LOVE reading stories of adventures at sea, lost at sea, dying at sea, etc. Next to microbiology, that's my favorite book topic. So I enjoyed the story. But...
> 
> Are yall afraid of becoming financially liable for rescuing new (or aged) sailors?


In the US, at least, everyone pitches in for the rescue. The Coast Guard is funded in part through our tax money. The more rescues they have, the more resources are used, the more the budget needs to be increased.

And, as a former land SAR volunteer for over ten years, unneeded rescues aren't always about the money, but they are always about the rescuer's lives. Every last one of them initially volunteered to do what they do (even if they get paid to do it) and it's a human being putting his or her life on the line to help you. When that happens our first response after delivering you safely back to your family is to educate you and the community in the hopes that the next rescue operation is not pulled away from a potentially *real* rescue where someone's life truly is in danger.

I have participated in CG SAR cases in the Delaware and Chesapeake Bays: drunk boaters falling overboard and getting swept down the Bays, drunk boaters deciding to shed clothing in the heat and jumping overboard and getting swept away (and let me tell you, that was no Adonis that we hauled out of the water), boaters running out of gas and drifting towards open ocean because they have no radio, and others who, with just a bit of common sense, could have avoided the situation.



BlackFlag said:


> Do you really want government regulation of the entire globe, including the oceans?


We're already there to a certain extent. International Maritime Law requires boaters to respond to another boater in distress as long as it does not put the responder or the boat in danger. That may mean doing as little as providing a radio relay to the nearest Coast Guard or providing coordinates to a boater near you who has no idea where he or she is. Or it may mean a commercial ship diverting to assist a recreational boater.



BlackFlag said:


> How many sailors are really statists with the govnt on speed-dial? I thought it was for more independently minded people.


All of them who carry a VHF and/or SSB radio or an EPIRB. So, that's most of them. A push of the button will put you in contact with or relay an emergency signal with your location to the nearest Coast Guard. Anyone with a smidgen of boater education would know this.

My soapbox is pretty tall when it comes to trying to help a fellow boater not become the next subject of a rescue posted to these types of forums. You may not initiate a rescue, but there may be no stopping a family member left behind from notifying the Coast Guard and in every US case a response must be started (I have no idea of the protocols of other countries).

Yes, there are "independently minded" sailors but that sometimes does more harm than good. For the most part we are a community, one that helps our members (oftentimes strangers) who are in need. In that respect the sailing community can be self-sufficient to a point because sometimes that help can be given without the need for a formal government rescue. But then there are others whose "independence" means they don't want to accept the advice and suggestions of those who have many more miles under their keel or who had been in a bad situation and survived. Those latter people who, without knowing anything, seem to know it all, are usually the ones sailing off ill-equipped and uninformed about the basics needed to calmly and safely extricate themselves from most situations that should not require a Mayday.


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## Sabreman (Sep 23, 2006)

Well said, Donna.

All you newbies - *listen* to her!


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

*No one asks for an unnecessary rescue.*



BlackFlag said:


> OK, I am a new sailor and I even started a thread the other day in which I claim that I will "float away" with my family to the Caribbean! Shame on me!!! DRFerron recommended I begin by reading this thread, which I guess means she is afraid I might call for an unnecessary water rescue while crossing the Gulf.
> 
> I know some people want to call a govnt to come save them, and it looks like others want to call the govnt to save them from people who they suspect might call a govnt to come same them. How many sailors are really statists with the govnt on speed-dial? I thought it was for more independently minded people.


All the people who pushed the EPIRB button or put out a MAYDAY call were scared sh*tless and thought that their lives were at considerable risk. It is easy for us to Monday morning quarterback them from the comfort of our computers. The problem to my way of thinking is that some of the people who put out premature SOS calls do not have enough experience to really know how bad the situation is. After getting knocked down this season in southern French Polynesia and suffering some damage (solar panel, stanchions, vane steering) we found that things looked a lot rosier after we stabilized the situation (which took a few hours) and had a good sleep. We could have panicked and pushed the button but we have had enough experience (and experiences) to realize that things were not as bad as they might have seemed - after all it was just some mess and a bit of water inside the boat (could have done without the dirt from the planters though which made the cockpit all muddy).

To the orginal poster, would it be your intention not to take an EPIRB or long distance radio equipment? Would seem what an independent-minded person would do.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

Paulo
About your last example, I wonder if it may be related to the fact that the boat was in the Blue Water Rally? This rally keeps up a pretty relentless pace and the boat mentioned would be near the bottom of the fleet speedwise. Would be very wearing on the crew, especially people in their 60s (and I am in my 60s so not a knock) since the port stays for rest and repair are much shorter than for faster boats in the fleet. Also might encourage the slower boats to push too hard so they get to port sooner. I understand that the Blue Water Rally is no more - don't think it is much of a loss.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

PCP

Re: the original post. I cannot believe that the Brazilians acted so quickly after they waited so long in the case of the Concordia.


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## paintpollz (Nov 16, 2011)

DRFerron said:


> Try explaining this to all the people on this forum who respond to new boaters who want to sail around the world that all they need is a boat and just GO with no training on how to respond in an emergency or even how to know if they are in an emergency situation to begin with.


Ha, that's funny. I'm a newbie, I'd like to think those newbie's are mostly in a pipe dream, and have fun day dreaming out loud (all the while making themselves sound like idiots.

Where do all these people get the time to sail the world? Are they all 70 years old and retired with a nice nest egg? If not, don't they have job obligations, or even family? What about that one guy who said he was going to sell everything he owned, but a boat, max his credit cards, and peace out on all of his obligations?

For all the veterans, in my opinion, it seems like a waste of time even responding to people like that. I'm a quarter century young, just joined this forum, and I don't know jack about sailing. Have I sat at work thinking about how cool it would be to leave tomorrow and maybe even just down the east coast to florida and back with my girlfriend? Hell yeah I have, and its fun to think about, and totally UNrealistic. How would I pay for the boat and my other bills?

Where the hell do these people come from?


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

paintpollz said:


> Where the hell do these people come from?


In a way it's about your priorities, compromise and how bad you want it. Some people sold their house, took a sabbatical, sailed away. I know one young couple with three kids who did that. She's earning money as a technical writer as they sail around the Pacific. Others are retired and may be living off of their retirement income. If there is no house to maintain, the money goes to the boat. Some people rent their homes while they cruise. Health care is an issue. In the US we pay more and get far less than in other countries. I know people who chose to retire to other countries for that very reason.

Get rid of the ultimate cable package with every sports channel you don't even watch, the Netflix, pedicures, car payments, $100 haircuts, restaurant dinners 4 nights a week and whittle your expenses down to the absolute minimum, you'll be surprised what you *really* need to live on. You'd also be surprised at the sheer enjoyment you get out of watching the sun set and the stars come out while you sit in the cockpit or dangle your feet over the side of the dock instead of watching Swamp People on TV, or how much you enjoy taking a walk in a new coastal town and soaking up the history it can show you instead of playing xBox for hours.

It's not all roses and tiki bars. There is the danger of crossing an ocean, being away from family and friends for long periods of time, the awkwardness of being in countries in which you may not know the language and in some cases the sheer astonishment of finding oneself in a small space in the middle of nowhere with a person you *thought* you knew before you had to spend so much time with him or her.

We're planning to eventually cruise just part of the year. Year-round and cutting all land ties is not for us. In the meantime we learn all we can about the lifestyle and where we plan to cruise and otherwise get our ducks in a row.


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## montenido (May 14, 2008)

Hi all,
As someone who hopes to soon cut the ties to land, I thought I would chime in. You know, the quick cries for help are not just a problem in the water. As a Firefighter for almost 30 years, I have seen our 911 calls grow from real emergencies to calls for bloody noses, sore feet, vomiting due to drinking, loneliness, keys locked in house or car, toothache, squirrel in cupboard, snake in living room, parrot in tree, upset stomach, sneezing, itching, and on and on...

What I tell my crew is that these sillyd calls keep us in business. We rarely have fires anymore, so the "darwin" calls keep us busy. It ain't glamorous, but it pays the bills. We too, get tied up on silly calls while others are having heart attacks and other real emergencies. It is a sign of the times. Everybody wants to be helped, whether they need it or not.

So, the general public will keep calling 911 for the silly reasons listed above, and the Coast Guard for the reasons listed earlier, and both of our crews will see them soon.  The rest of you know when a real emergency is occurring, and will hopefully call somebody then. 

Thanks, I feel better...:laugher

Cheers, Bill


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## paintpollz (Nov 16, 2011)

Donna, I see what you are saying. It's all about lifestyle, and what sailing really is to you. Whether its a permanent adventure home, daysailer, or weekend/vacation getaway. And you make personal finance adjustments to suite that lifestyle.

I just don't know how the average joe or joanne can just X their jobs and christopher columbus around the world without some sort of residual income. I've been planning on my weekender to be extremely expensive.

I'll keep my job and cable subsription. But I'm definitely downgrading my netflix subscription because I never use the DVDs


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

paintpollz said:


> I just don't know how the average joe or joanne can just X their jobs and christopher columbus around the world without some sort of residual income.


Say you own a home that's worth $250K. If you sell it and everything you own on land, theoretically you should be able to cruise on that money for several years if you watch your pennies. Pick up odd jobs here and there, figure out if you have some kind of skill that other boaters could use and barter or sell your services.

One thing that stands out to me, coming from the corporate world as comparison, is that serious cruisers see no shame in working jobs that the average suit would see as "beneath" him or her to do if it means being able to maintain a cruising lifestyle. I know people who work three months or six months or whatever behind a counter and then move on. Sail for months, find someplace else to work and refill the till. Some of these people came from desk jobs and find the freedom from the corporate hierarchy and BS well worth the drop in pay. I'm two steps from that myself.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Onerous regulations and insurance requirements would put many of us out sailing, sink the marine industry, and serve only to eliminate all but the very wealthy from sailing. In this situation, the guy was obviously not a capable navigator. Perhaps to eliminate these kinds of calls a test demonstrating knowledge of basic sextant use COULD be a good thing. Everyone going offshore should have the ability to at least take a noon sight so he/she can estimate position without a GPS. No boat should be offshore i.m.o. without a battery powered, waterproof handheld GPS as a backup. As in all matters where the taxpayer is left holding the bag, lack of personal responsibility is at the core.

Maybe the criteria for *free* rescue should be sunk vessel or imminent death, otherwise you pay for frivolous calls.


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## paintpollz (Nov 16, 2011)

DRFerron said:


> One thing that stands out to me, coming from the corporate world as comparison, is that serious cruisers see no shame in working jobs that the average suit would see as "beneath" him or her to do if it means being able to maintain a cruising lifestyle. I know people who work three months or six months or whatever behind a counter and then move on. Sail for months, find someplace else to work and refill the till. Some of these people came from desk jobs and find the freedom from the corporate hierarchy and BS well worth the drop in pay. I'm two steps from that myself.


I come from the corporate world of BS as well. Maybe I need to get to know some of these people. I could learn a lot.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

killarney_sailor said:


> All the people who pushed the EPIRB button or put out a MAYDAY call were scared sh*tless and thought that their lives were at considerable risk.... The problem to my way of thinking is that some of the people who put out premature SOS calls do not have enough experience to really know how bad the situation is.....
> 
> To the orginal poster, would it be your intention not to take an EPIRB or long distance radio equipment? Would seem what an independent-minded person would do.


Yes you are right. Around here it is pretty normal to have 20ft waves, some pretty steep, and that does not represent any real danger to sailing but sometimes when I go out with friends with small sailing experience they get scared sh*tless with that.

I am pretty sure that a professional ocean solo racer will have a much higher threshold in what he considers worrying sea conditions than me. I have seen solo racers going in small boats at full blast in conditions that would scare and put relatively experienced sailors doing defensive sailing.

It is obvious to me that to go seriously offshore there should be a minimum experience and that experience should not only be attested by the "candidate" but by some much more experienced sailor. The sea is dangerous and it is a social irresponsibility to allow someone, that does not have a clue about what he is doing, to put not only his life in risk, but the life of his family and all of those that would have to rescue him.

This is not only about money and resources (the ones that are wasted rescuing a crew that should not have need to be rescued) but also a question of social responsibility.

Probably on Europe we have a more social approach about responsibility. Here it would be unthinkable that someone could drive a car, pilot a plan or carry a gun without having to prove to society that he or she can do that safely and without endangering other's lives. I don't see why with boats it should be different, after all if one is competent at sailing, navigation and knows the sea regulations there is no reason to be worried regarding a practical and theoretical test.

Of course I think that everybody going offshore should carry an Epirb. I even consider that should be mandatory (it is mandatory in many countries) because in case of real trouble it is not only the life of the skipper that are at risk, but all the lives of the ones that are with him. Also an Epirb will make a search and rescue much more effective, wasting less resources that can be used to save someone else.

The problem is simple, a Mayday, as state the rules, should only be deployed
when *"a situation is one in which a vessel, aircraft, vehicle, or person is in grave and imminent danger and requires immediate assistance. Examples of "grave and imminent danger" in which a mayday call would be appropriate include fire, explosion or sinking."
*

Mayday - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

These cases on this thread are in my opinion not Mayday situations but PAN PAN situations:

*In radiotelephone communications, a call of three repetitions of pan-pan is used to signify that there is an urgency on board a boat, ship, aircraft or other vehicle but that, for the time being at least, there is no immediate danger to anyone's life or to the vessel itself. This is referred to as a state of urgency. This is distinct from a Mayday call, which means that there is imminent danger to life or to the continued viability of the vessel itself.*

A pan pan situation has a complete different treatment than a mayday and in a sailboat in bad weather, with a disable engine and taking some water but without the risk of sinking does not call for a rescue.

What is happening is that many people, or sailors as you prefer, are *calling maydays when they think the situation can lead to a life threatening event. That is no reason for a mayday. A mayday should only be called when life is effectively at imminent risk.*

Having no control over the boat is no reason for a mayday if the boat is intact and the ingress of water can be controlled and a lee shore is not close. I have friends that have been for 3 or 4 days closed inside the boat on floating anchor (and on small light boats) in horrible conditions, waiting the storm to pass without calling a mayday. This is quite normal and all sailors that go out deep on the ocean should know that can happen and be prepared for that.

It obviously seems that is not the case.

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

montenido said:


> Hi all,
> As someone who hopes to soon cut the ties to land, I thought I would chime in. You know, the quick cries for help are not just a problem in the water. As a Firefighter for almost 30 years, I have seen our 911 calls grow from real emergencies to calls for bloody noses, sore feet, vomiting due to drinking, loneliness, keys locked in house or car, toothache, squirrel in cupboard, snake in living room, parrot in tree, upset stomach, sneezing, itching, and on and on...
> 
> What I tell my crew is that these sillyd calls keep us in business. We rarely have fires anymore, so the "darwin" calls keep us busy. It ain't glamorous, but it pays the bills. We too, get tied up on silly calls while others are having heart attacks and other real emergencies. It is a sign of the times. Everybody wants to be helped, whether they need it or not.
> ...




Yes, I believe it is a sign of our times: City people

No joking, but I believe you got it right, probably not only with boating. Most people just think that if they buy a sturdy, heavier boat or a big bigger boat they will be OK even if they don't know jack about the sea, wind and waves, not mention sailing. How do we change that?

Regards

Paulo


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

I also see the problem of what seems to be a lot of people needing to be rescued. It seems the problem grows every year due to the fact in the United States the rich are getting richer (and poor, poorer). With this fact and the fact that marine elcectronics (GPS, EPIRB, PLB, Radar, AIS, Sonar, Chart Plotter, Electronic Auto-Pilot, SAT phone) have gotten cheaper, and the fact that adjusted for inflation good used boats (in the US) are very inexpensive. What that leads to is a lot of inexperienced people (at least in the US) buy a boat and think that all the electronics will make sailing safe and easy (like sitting at the sofa and watching TV). Also, other boat equipment like refrigeration, water makers, generators are available and inexpensive. When they get into a storm and all the electronics start to fail, or the boats systems fall apart, then they are helpless and get scared- their dreams of sailing off into the sunset are shattered- time to hit the EPIRB and get out of the nightmare.


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## vega1860 (Dec 18, 2006)

killarney_sailor said:


> (could have done without the dirt from the planters though which made the cockpit all muddy).


Planters??

Really??


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

*Really*



vega1860 said:


> Planters??
> 
> Really??


We had a couple of planters hanging under the dodger growing lettuce. Grew really well and added a nice touch to meals when we were in obscure spots where we could not get fresh fruits and vegetables. Made a hell of mess though.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

*There are no Pan-Pan calls in the movies*



PCP said:


> These cases on this thread are in my opinion not Mayday situations but PAN PAN situations:
> 
> *In radiotelephone communications, a call of three repetitions of pan-pan is used to signify that there is an urgency on board a boat, ship, aircraft or other vehicle but that, for the time being at least, there is no immediate danger to anyone's life or to the vessel itself. This is referred to as a state of urgency. This is distinct from a Mayday call, which means that there is imminent danger to life or to the continued viability of the vessel itself.*
> 
> ...


Yes, but when was the last time you heard a Pan-Pan in the movies - there everything is an emergency and super dramatic. I have used Pan-Pan once in 40 years when someone fell down the companionway and ended up in hospital in Bermuda 36 hours later - but her life was not in jeopardy.

It is not a new problem though. I heard a Mayday call 40 years ago from someone who was lost within 5 miles of the entrance to Erie, Pennsylvania on Lake Erie. He was lost and could not figure what all the lights meant.


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## LessTacksing (Mar 17, 2009)

I feel sailors should learn how to sail without the electronics, chart reading, navigation, etc. I have found that when more people start to rely more on the easier way i.e computers they have to think even about the simple things such as math.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

LessTacksing said:


> I feel sailors should learn how to sail without the electronics, chart reading, navigation, etc. I have found that when more people start to rely more on the easier way i.e computers they have to think even about the simple things such as math.


I agree. I think it's OK to use electronics, and I do, but I also know how to plot a DR course on a paper chart, take a fix, etc. I keep current paper charts as backup and have used one while underway when the netbook got quirky.

However, now that one can practically run the boat from an iPhone or iPad, it will be increasingly difficult to convince people of the need for manual redundancy.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

LessTacksing said:


> I feel sailors should learn how to sail without the electronics, chart reading, navigation, etc. I have found that when more people start to rely more on the easier way i.e computers they have to think even about the simple things such as math.


Agree. I also think sailors can get overwhelmed with all the electronic displays and outputs (information overload) and then miss the big picture (freighter about to run them down). I am going to take out all unecessary electronics and concentrate on the real world around me.


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## skippertips (Apr 27, 2010)

Many folks don't seem to realize the danger of the rescuer. If you are going to sea, you need to be prepared. Before you hit the Mayday or EPIRB button, realize that you will be placing a lot of lives in danger. Rescuers live with danger. But even so, it's something to consider. After 20+ years in the US Coast Guard, I saw this type of thing once in a blue moon. 

I believe it has gotten worse now with "help's a push button away" technology. Seamanship is more about the equipment between your ears than the high tech stuff folks load up on for survival. More boats than ever are going long distance loaded to the gills with the survival stuff--yet just how well do they know sailing seamanship? 

Captain John


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

killarney_sailor said:


> We had a couple of planters hanging under the dodger growing lettuce. Grew really well and added a nice touch to meals when we were in obscure spots where we could not get fresh fruits and vegetables. Made a hell of mess though.


Oh crikey, don't let the Wombet see this please please please .... I'm only preventing the rise of the Wombet Herb Garden by the skin of my teeth ....


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

tdw said:


> oh crikey, don't let the wombet see this please please please .... I'm only preventing the rise of the wombet herb garden by the skin of my teeth ....


That's a bit strange but the truth is that is not the first time that I saw a boat with plants in pots. I wonder how they would sail with all that stuff

Maybe you can ask them?

Regards

Paulo


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

*Email address?*



tdw said:


> Oh crikey, don't let the Wombet see this please please please .... I'm only preventing the rise of the Wombet Herb Garden by the skin of my teeth ....


Send me her email and I will send full instructions on how to do this. We had planned to throw the dirt away before arriving in Oz anyway, but we did not have to bother - the planters were not that big - maybe 16" diameter.


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## Patient (Jan 7, 2009)

PCP said:


> Have another one. On this one the sea is a bit worse but the boat is not at risk. Well sailed and running downwind with a bit of sail I am quite sure that would be perfectly alright. With an floating anchor and pointing to the wind should also be perfectly alright. I believe that the boat could even be sailed against the wind and at least be maintained stationary. Of course, not with a big genoa, but with an appropriated front sail.
> 
> The skipper has an injured harm but he injured the harm in the storm and I fail to understand why he had not a rigged stay and a storm sail on it, before the storm, for control. The boat was on a rally so he knew the bad weather was coming and should have *the boat ready before the bad weather*. I don't see any removable stay, so the chances is that he had not one and that is inadmissible on that type of boat with a big Genoa on an ocean crossing.
> 
> ...


Hey PCP,

I certainly agree with your sentiments on the matter.

However, the case you posted, the skipper actually chimed in on another cruising forum and explained in detail what led to having to be "rescued". He was almost killed during the process as well and had to watch a merchant ship crush his vessel because they pulled it too close despite his efforts. I won't quote him here, but I can recall something on the lines of, "Don't listen to anyone other than your own gut." (That includes wives in some cases)

I have read of some other situations when a panicky crew calls "Mayday" against the captains wishes and once the Rescue crew finally gets to you, they tend not to leave without _*everyone*_ on the Helo, just out of policy. (Someone can clarify that for me I am sure)

Lets not forget the saddening tale of the S/V Satori. The captain told everyone to buckle down and ride out the storm as he had many times in that tough little lady in the past. One of crew hopped on the radio begging for help and thus began the turn for the worst. One of the crew was lost after jumping in to reach the Coast Guard cage, the captain was told he would be removed by force from the vessel if he didnt leave it and the boat of course was found in sound condition weeks later.

I just wanted to chime in that the situation you cited was vastly different than someone getting "lost" at sea and phoning in for help. Regardless, your arguments are not only sound, but I think inline with most peoples views on calling for help and risking other peoples lives when it isnt needed.

Speaking from experience here. Many, many, years ago my family chartered in the BVI right when the Moorings had just started to develop its operation there (80s). Not many people were bareboating either, you had to do an exam and sail with a captain for several hours to get the "clear". My father at that point had been sailing for close to 30 years. He also was an avid racer, commanded a sense of safety without effort and was just a hell of a captain not to mention a nice guy. We had a young family "friend" aboard that was skittish with the trip from the get go. I think what looked like a fun trip on paper turned into a nightmare for her once she stepped aboard.

During a tight and nervous entrance in to Anegada ahead of a nasty blow she did the unthinkable. It was hard to see the bottom with no sun left in the sky, but the water was still calm, so with the help of a local on a skiff we ventured, slowly. Well, while everyone was on deck keeping an eye on our route, we nicked something slightly. No big deal, was to be expected to be honest, but that sound had our "guest" hiding down below busy on the radio frantically calling Maydays on any button she could press. My father in a heart beat jumped down and grabbed the radio our of her hand and spent the next 10 minutes trying to convince other people from venturing out for no reason. He forced her topside, pointed at the front and firmly said, "You see that? You almost made people cross that for nothing." The next morning was a quick detour back to Tortola to drop her off. We continued to charter around the world as a family for the next 10 years, never once doubting our captain, never once questioning his wanton desire to keep us safe, even during a gutwretching Hurricane Mitch. Some people though, just can't handle situations in which they do not have total control and more dangerously refuse to listen to those that do.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Patient said:


> ....
> 
> Speaking from experience here. Many, many, years ago my family chartered in the BVI right when the Moorings had just started to develop its operation there (80s). Not many people were bareboating either, you had to do an exam and sail with a captain for several hours to get the "clear". My father at that point had been sailing for close to 30 years. He also was an avid racer, commanded a sense of safety without effort and was just a hell of a captain not to mention a nice guy. We had a young family "friend" aboard that was skittish with the trip from the get go. I think what looked like a fun trip on paper turned into a nightmare for her once she stepped aboard.
> 
> During a tight and nervous entrance in to Anegada ahead of a nasty blow she did the unthinkable. It was hard to see the bottom with no sun left in the sky, but the water was still calm, so with the help of a local on a skiff we ventured, slowly. Well, while everyone was on deck keeping an eye on our route, we nicked something slightly. No big deal, was to be expected to be honest, but that sound had our "guest" hiding down below busy on the radio frantically calling Maydays on any button she could press. My father in a heart beat jumped down and grabbed the radio our of her hand and spent the next 10 minutes trying to convince other people from venturing out for no reason. He forced her topside, pointed at the front and firmly said, "You see that? You almost made people cross that for nothing." The next morning was a quick detour back to Tortola to drop her off. We continued to charter around the world as a family for the next 10 years, never once doubting our captain, never once questioning his wanton desire to keep us safe, even during a gutwretching Hurricane Mitch. Some people though, just can't handle situations in which they do not have total control and more dangerously refuse to listen to those that do.


Very nice story, thanks for posting.

That raises also another fundamental question that is the unquestionable confidence on the Captain and the problem is that confidence is not a thing that you can impose but something that you have to earn, deserve and that other people have to feel.

The biggest prof of confidence that someone had shown to me was given by my mother. I always liked to do things that had to do with control of my body and control of my body over vehicle so since very young I have done a lot of sports, fly airplanes, racing motorcycles or be out there with the bikes for days on the mountains, sailing into the ocean or doing underwater chase, sometimes hunting sharks.

My mother was constantly worried about me and afraid I got hurt. When I was on my late thirties I was just getting ready for a big motorcycle race and mother was at my home. Suddenly I noticed that she was very calm and not with that nervous and slightly reproachful look that had been in is eyes every-time I was preparing for doing some "madness".

I gently asked her: Hey Mom are you not afraid for me this time? And she said something that I will always treasure: No son, I am not afraid. All this years you have done all sorts of crazy things but I now understand that you always new very well what you were doing.

Oh man, I cannot say to you guys how proud that make me feel!

And basically that is the confidence that a Captain should deserve from his crew and that does not happens many times or because the Captain really does not deserve that confidence (because he really do not know enough) or because the crew (should I say passengers) do not know him sufficiently well or simply do not know enough to understand that he knows what he is doing.

Regards

Paulo


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

In response to the discussion on reliance on electronics, I think it is very important to have DR skills. This method of determining position has been largely forgotten by many because of the more accurate and convenient GPS technology. LORAN and RDF were precursors to the newest chartplotter tech. but they all have one thing in common: 12v. When the electricity fails, which it WILL at some point, those without DR skills are simply...lost. 

I use a chartplotter and have a backup battery GPS, they are great, but would never try to navigate without a paper chart and a compass. As I have posted before, it is easy to print b/w charts while at anchor from your chartplotter/computer on a cheap inkjet printer (laser will not work on converter). This also gives you the ability to print large or small scale and gives you something to take notes on for log entry later. I make booklets of charts to keep right in the cockpit which are very handy, especially in seeing a larger picture than on the little plotter screen.

I'm sure many of us can remember the problems in trying to navigate with DR alone and no one would want to go back there BUT when all else fails DR will get you where you want to go.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

smurphny said:


> In response to the discussion on reliance on electronics, I think it is very important to have DR skills. This method of determining position has been largely forgotten by many because of the more accurate and convenient GPS technology.


The US Power and Sail Squadron and CG Aux still teach DR and using paper charts in their basic boating courses. The trick to getting the students to enjoy and pay attention is to make sure they see how much information is contained on a paper chart, how they can use it to plan ahead, and to generally not give them the sense that a paper chart is going the way of the mimeograph machine and what they are learning is not a waste of time. Usually, when I tell them that in the winter I love lighting a fire, pouring a glass of cognac and opening my charts on the drafting table to plan trips for the next season, they at least become curious as to what it is that's holding my attention on that piece of paper.

It's kind of like the department store windows during the holidays giving you that warm and fuzzy feeling in the hopes that you're drawn into the store. It's all in the presentation.


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## lancelot9898 (Dec 30, 2008)

"the captain was told he would be removed by force from the vessel if he didnt leave it and the boat of course was found in sound condition weeks later."

He may have been told that but I can not envision how under survival conditions someone is going to be removed against their will.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

DRFerron said:


> The US Power and Sail Squadron and CG Aux still teach DR and using paper charts in their basic boating courses. The trick to getting the students to enjoy and pay attention is to make sure they see how much information is contained on a paper chart, how they can use it to plan ahead, and to generally not give them the sense that a paper chart is going the way of the mimeograph machine and what they are learning is not a waste of time. Usually, when I tell them that in the winter I love lighting a fire, pouring a glass of cognac and opening my charts on the drafting table to plan trips for the next season, they at least become curious as to what it is that's holding my attention on that piece of paper.
> 
> It's kind of like the department store windows during the holidays giving you that warm and fuzzy feeling in the hopes that you're drawn into the store. It's all in the presentation.


I love to look at those Bahamas Explorer books wondering what different anchorages and passages are like! The difficulty with DR is in the practice. Doing the planning is one thing, actually navigating in stressful high current/wind places with poor visibility thrown in is a different story. The temptation to turn on that GPS is too great. When DR was the standard there was no other choice. Things like depth, current tables, triangulation with a handheld compass, range bearings, and accurate calculation of course made good were primary considerations. In order to be able to use these things, you really have to practice them. I'd bet the term sighting a "range" to establish a LOP is totally alien to the large majority of boaters. It's such an easy technique, near or far. Years ago, fishing for a living, I could relocate places within feet using triangulation of ranges.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

smurphny said:


> I love to look at those Bahamas Explorer books wondering what different anchorages and passages are like! The difficulty with DR is in the practice.


How can I look smug if we don't run the courses I plotted?


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

DRFerron said:


> Usually, when I tell them that in the winter I love lighting a fire, pouring a glass of cognac and opening my charts on the drafting table to plan trips for the next season, they at least become curious as to what it is that's holding my attention on that piece of paper.


There is nothing like looking at a full size chart; beats the heck out of a 8 inch screen. 

I do have electronic charts on both my desk top and my netbook. They are useful as a shift from boat to boat. I also have my toy charts on my Android phone.

I teach coastal navigation on paper charts and chart 1, using paper tide and current tables.

I envy you the cognac; for some reason as a I have matured my tolerance for spirits (cognac, sipping rum and single malt scotch) as diminished - brutal headaches.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

lancelot9898 said:


> "the captain was told he would be removed by force from the vessel if he didnt leave it and the boat of course was found in sound condition weeks later."
> 
> He may have been told that but I can not envision how under survival conditions someone is going to be removed against their will.


As I remember from the report after the incident of the 
Satori, the captain stated he had some sort of captain's license and was afraid if he did not follow the CG orders that the license could be revoked.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

smurphny said:


> In response to the discussion on reliance on electronics, I think it is very important to have DR skills. This method of determining position has been largely forgotten by many because of the more accurate and convenient GPS technology. LORAN and RDF were precursors to the newest chartplotter tech. but they all have one thing in common: 12v. When the electricity fails, which it WILL at some point, those without DR skills are simply...lost.
> 
> I use a chartplotter and have a backup battery GPS, they are great, but would never try to navigate without a paper chart and a compass. As I have posted before, it is easy to print b/w charts while at anchor from your chartplotter/computer on a cheap inkjet printer (laser will not work on converter). This also gives you the ability to print large or small scale and gives you something to take notes on for log entry later. I make booklets of charts to keep right in the cockpit which are very handy, especially in seeing a larger picture than on the little plotter screen.
> 
> I'm sure many of us can remember the problems in trying to navigate with DR alone and no one would want to go back there BUT when all else fails DR will get you where you want to go.


When I first started sailing in 1980 I crewed on a boat from Annapolis to Antigua. We had only a sextant, a log and charts. In a storm for 3 days we could not take noon sites due to clouds, used DR. The log we used was a metal fully mechanical one hung from the stern rail and had about 100 feet of line to a propeller. A few weeks ago I was looking to buy one of these but no one seems to make them. Everthing I see is electrical and solid state. Any idea where you can buy a mechanical log like this?


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

casey1999 said:


> Any idea where you can buy a mechanical log like this?


There is one on ebay. It is in the UK.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

jackdale said:


> There is one on ebay. It is in the UK.


Thanks, I see other also on E-bay, although most do not have the propeller. Does anyone still make an all mechanical log?

When we were sailing we did loose one propeller, we think a shark or large fish bit it off. We had a spare propeller and installed it. So it would be nice to have a source for the propeller if one is lost.


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## GBurton (Jun 26, 2007)

casey1999 said:


> When I first started sailing in 1980 I crewed on a boat from Annapolis to Antigua. We had only a sextant, a log and charts. In a storm for 3 days we could not take noon sites due to clouds, used DR. The log we used was a metal fully mechanical one hung from the stern rail and had about 100 feet of line to a propeller. A few weeks ago I was looking to buy one of these but no one seems to make them. Everthing I see is electrical and solid state. Any idea where you can buy a mechanical log like this?


I have one for sale if you are interested contact me. This is a Walker log


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

casey1999 said:


> When I first started sailing in 1980 I crewed on a boat from Annapolis to Antigua. We had only a sextant, a log and charts. In a storm for 3 days we could not take noon sites due to clouds, used DR. The log we used was a metal fully mechanical one hung from the stern rail and had about 100 feet of line to a propeller. A few weeks ago I was looking to buy one of these but no one seems to make them. Everthing I see is electrical and solid state. Any idea where you can buy a mechanical log like this?


I had one in my first boat. It was the most modern hardware it had. well, it only had that and a compass

I bought it in England but I guess that nobody is making them anymore because that was an expensive piece of equipment. Yes it was a precision mechanic device and as all mechanic complex things it would be much more expensive to build than an electronic one. Mine was a lot simpler but it was basically this:










It was called a knotmeter. This guys still make an inexpensive and much simpler version that works not with rotation but with water pressure :

orders

Regards

Paulo


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

jackdale said:


> There is nothing like looking at a full size chart; beats the heck out of a 8 inch screen.
> 
> I do have electronic charts on both my desk top and my netbook. They are useful as a shift from boat to boat. I also have my toy charts on my Android phone.
> 
> ...


 Sorry about the headaches Jack. I was getting headaches until I found I had become allergic to Corn of all things. The damned stuff is in everything! Lots of alcohol products have things like corn in them to precipitate headaches. Lots of beers have corn products. Some I can drink, others will give me a headache after drinking even one. It's possible you may be allergic to something specific that you can eliminate, not just booze in general.


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

Faith in the skipper? Once upon a time I crewed on a Mapleleaf 42. Master's sextant put us 150 miles out off the Cal /Oregon line.Really rough,ripped mainsail, while furling, rode the boom back and forth when the sheet block shackle fell off .Motoring east in fog at 3am I thought 'that feels like a ground swell ' Went on deck to see a white line ahead. Sounder said 30 ft so I grabbed the helm and came about. My transistor radio indicated position near Wash/Oregon. But I'm not the navigator.---- Later I look out a port to see a large rock go by. Blunt's reef in fog at daybreak .--Later I spent some time at the masthead replacing the swiveling jib halyard block so we could untangle the halfway jib. Fairly choppy off San Fran and bruises to prove it. After several full on broaches, the wind dropped past the Cape but left a big sea from all directions. The engine was full of water and batteries dead. Only a crescent wrench and a B.Stratton portable. After things get going, I find the alternator output went direct to the ammeter by the compass and then to both battery banks. Duh? Pretty beat by this time. Motor sailing, 7 knots , fog, 3 am some where off Channel Isl. Skipper shakes me and says "We're lost" I go aft to see the taftrail log while he locks himself in the aft cabin. Our only chart covered Cape Flattery to Mexico but I'd been to San Diego by bus two years before and knew where it was so I motored for a long time and anchored in fog at Shelter Island at 3 am. Although there were 4 of us on board. I was tired of opening cans of peas and beans together and was pretty glad to get ashore and hitch hike north.All in all, I learned a bunch about ships and the men what sails them


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Capt Len said:


> Faith in the skipper? Once upon a time I crewed on a Mapleleaf 42. Master's sextant put us 150 miles out off the Cal /Oregon line.Really rough,ripped mainsail, while furling, rode the boom back and forth when the sheet block shackle fell off .Motoring east in fog at 3am I thought 'that feels like a ground swell ' Went on deck to see a white line ahead. Sounder said 30 ft so I grabbed the helm and came about. My transistor radio indicated position near Wash/Oregon. But I'm not the navigator.---- Later I look out a port to see a large rock go by. Blunt's reef in fog at daybreak .--Later I spent some time at the masthead replacing the swiveling jib halyard block so we could untangle the halfway jib. Fairly choppy off San Fran and bruises to prove it. After several full on broaches, the wind dropped past the Cape but left a big sea from all directions. The engine was full of water and batteries dead. Only a crescent wrench and a B.Stratton portable. After things get going, I find the alternator output went direct to the ammeter by the compass and then to both battery banks. Duh? Pretty beat by this time. Motor sailing, 7 knots , fog, 3 am some where off Channel Isl. Skipper shakes me and says "We're lost" I go aft to see the taftrail log while he locks himself in the aft cabin. Our only chart covered Cape Flattery to Mexico but I'd been to San Diego by bus two years before and knew where it was so I motored for a long time and anchored in fog at Shelter Island at 3 am. Although there were 4 of us on board. I was tired of opening cans of peas and beans together and was pretty glad to get ashore and hitch hike north.All in all, I learned a bunch about ships and the men what sails them




Well, there is something we can take for that amusing story

Don't crew if you don't know the captain or if you don't trust him.

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

That story remembers me of another one, with airplanes, not boats.

I was a 18 year's old kid, but already a pilot with some experience (I was training younger kids) when an Air force Major, that was that day the field instructor, asked me to go with his friend, a 10 000 hour civilian middle age pilot (from a big Air company), for an airplane ride. 

The plane was an Auster. I took off and the guy asked me to assume control of the plane and we start to make some tight turns that scared the hell out of me. No I was not afraid of tight maneuvers I was afraid because I understood that the guy did not know what he was doing. He was losing altitude in the turns without noticing, increasing the airplane speed to near the limits it could break. I was forced to call his attention to it and when he pulled the airplane up without taking out some engine (putting a lot of Gs on the wings) I had to do that myself excusing to be interfering with his flight.

When we come down I was quite relieved and asked him if he wanted me to land the airplane (hoping he said yes) but he said no.... Well, what could go wrong? Even in a messy landing the plane should take it. 

With some Zig-Zags he managed to align the plane (it was an airforce landing strip, quite wide) he put it parallel to the stripe and then without waiting for the airplane to lose enough speed, pulled the stick sharply back, without giving me any chance to correct that. Maybe that's how he used to do on a 747, but that does not work on a light plane. We went up before falling down from 3 meters high

We lost the landing gear, the propeller and had lots of luck in not having capsized the thing, that was gliding over the engine making a huge noise and a lot of sparks. I jumped the plane before it stopped, furious with myself for letting him land the plane!

Well, that was my lesson, the one that match your own. From that day on I learned that things are not always what they seem and started to have a lot more care in who I was putting my trust with

Regards

Paulo


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

RRRR--R ! Them's were the days.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

PCP said:


> That's a bit strange but the truth is that is not the first time that I saw a boat with plants in pots. I wonder how they would sail with all that stuff
> 
> Maybe you can ask them?
> 
> ...


Paulo,

Some time back there was a SailNetter with, I think, a Nauticat who had a herb garden, maybe just basil and parsley, in the wheelhouse. I know the Wombet has her eye on the sheltered spot behind the windscreen of the Malo. Never gets wet in there and pretty easy to attach restraining straps for the pots.

I don't know, it all sounds a bit out there sailing hippy for my liking but fresh basil is perhaps reward enough ?

Cheers

Andrew

ps - that would have been TrueBlue in the Nauticat.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

Reward enough is keeping the admiral happy so she will cross oceans with me - although she may be not going across the Indian Ocean - she is literate and heard about the horror stories.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Be careful going through customs with your herb gardens on board!


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