# Boat owner not paying yard, and title of ownership issues



## stollie (Sep 24, 2009)

Hello all,

I'm fairly new to sailnet and to sailing, so I hope I'm posting in the correct forum.

Recently, I saw a older boat that I like in a boatyard, on the hard, and it looked like it's been sitting there quite a while (weathered sheets, no sticker posted on boat, but mast still up).

Upon inquiring about it from one of the workers (yard owner was not available), I was told that the boat's owner has not been paying the yard storage fees and that the yard owner "has not been able to get the title." That's all the info. that I have so far, as I'm still trying to get in contact with the yard owner.

What does that mean, and what chance do I have as far as being able to buy the boat?

Thanks


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

That same reason is why there there thousands of abandoned and derelict boats in yards, barns, marinas, clubs etc. I'm sure if you take another look at the boat you like, you will find it probably has water 3ft deep in the cabins and worse. But then love is blind, is it not?


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## merc2dogs (Jun 5, 2004)

Most often, 'not able to get the title' is the same as 'hasn't tried'.

Many yard owners will not attempt to get the title for an abandoned boat unless they actually have someone interested in it, or if it's a boat that's in demand and easily sold. Because once it is theirs, it's inventory they have to pay property taxes on, along with the transfer fees. Plus, once it's theirs they are also 100% responsable for it.

As long as it doesn't belong to the yard, anything that happens is the owner's responsability. Barring 'reasonable care' requirements. As long as it is the owners boat, all they have to do is put it out of the way, and make sure it's not going to fall over. which is why most abandoned boats are in an out of the way area of the yard

If you're interested in a boat, discuss it with one of the people in the office, many yard workers are not in the loop so really don't know what's really going on with the boats.
 Make a reasonable offer, they have already lost money on the boat so aren't always interested in getting market value. (If they were, the boat would already be theirs with a for sale sign on it) if they start talking about how much is owed on the boat you can normally ignore any figures they state. 

Be aware though, that many people bring sails and other removables home with them when they put a boat up for the season, so you may NOT have the chance to get them. (one boat I bought had the POs information inside, I contacted him and was able to get the sails and other equipment free after purchasing the boat. Turns out he had sold the boat but the new owner never took possession)

Occasionally you'll find a boat that has all the fees paid up, but it's been unused for a few years, those are the boats that it's best to find the owner, the yard can't do more than forward your contact info or give you theirs though.

Best course is to ask about 'the old boat out back' not what do they want for that "28ft whizzgig supersailor".Either way you'll often get a figure for it, but one way you'll get a price, the other they'll most often say look it over and make an offer. 
Don't act ignorant, but don't act like you know everything about boats either. Act ignorant and you turn yourself into a mark, act too knowledgeable, and they'll often think they must have missed something important about the boat.

Ken.


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## Leither (Sep 30, 2008)

Stollie - Excellent advice from Ken. I can't really add to that, but just bear in mind what Denise said in her post about the potential costs of getting a boat with multiple problems back to sailing condition. If you can get some expert advice once it becomes clear that the boat is genuinely for sale, then so much the better.

Good luck

Stuart


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## stollie (Sep 24, 2009)

Thanks for all the information and advice.

Interesting what Ken said [many people bring sails and other removables home with them when they put a boat up for the season, so you may NOT have the chance to get them]; according to the yard worker, this stuff wasn't available, so I'll have to see how it plays out if I'm eventually able to speak to the current owner and ask him/her about the goods, and if they'll be helpful or hostile.

If you folks think of anything else that you think I may find useful, I'd appreciate the additional postings. I'm so new to all this, I don't know what I don't know, to paraphrase our esteemed former Defense Secretary.

Thanks again,
Noel


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

I would also try to find out who owns the boat. Many boats are sold by owners for the price of the yard fees. you pay the yard fees and the owner signs over the boat to you. Yards owners usually do have have a problem with this type of arrangement as they will be payed in the end.


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## Dirtboy (Jul 13, 2009)

Here in Florida it's quite easy to get title to a boat abandonded in a yard. We find it necessary to do this two to three times a year as we are a service department, not a storage yard. It cost us about $300 to get the title and then we either sell them or junk them, either way we don't have room to store them.

DB


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

If I wanted it I'd call the owner and make an offer.


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## Sandflea (Aug 19, 2009)

Don't know if the laws are the same in Jersey, check your .gov site to be sure but I think this will help you be prepared for the ordeal should you decide to make the leap....

Abandoned Boats

Under section 15-140c of the Connecticut General Statutes, a vessel (boat) is presumed to be an abandoned vessel if left unattended for more than 24 hours

on private property without the consent of the landowner, or 
on Connecticut waters and not moored, anchored or made fast to the shore. 
If you find an abandoned boat, you should take the following steps:

STEP 1: CONTACT POLICE
Contact your local police department or the Department of Environmental Protection (DEP) State Environmental Conservation Police. Provide to them the Hull Identification Number (HIN) and registration number of the vessel. The law enforcement officer will determine if the vessel is stolen and will prepare an incident report, a copy of which will be provided to you. The law enforcement officer may take the vessel into custody and store it, but the law does not require it.

STEP 2: CONTACT LAST OWNER OF RECORD
To obtain the name and address of the last owner of record, submit to the DMV a completed DMV Form J23b, along with the $20 fee and a photocopy of your driver's license for identification. Include on the form the vessel's registration number and HIN. [NOTE: If there is no registration number, HIN or other identifying markings on the boat, the DMV will not be able to determine the last owner of record.] Send to the last owner of record of the vessel a certified letter, return receipt requested, notifying the last owner of record that you found the vessel and request that the last owner of record retrieve the vessel from you or, if you want the vessel, that the last owner of record sell it to you. If you want the vessel and the last owner of record agrees to sell it to you, the last owner of record must provide you with a completed BILL OF SALE indicating that the vessel was sold to you for a reasonable amount. If the last owner of record prefers to give the vessel to you rather than sell it, the last owner of record must provide you with a completed GIFT AFFIDAVIT (DMV Form AU-463), in addition to a BILL OF SALE (specifying a zero dollar amount). If the last owner of record provides you with a BILL OF SALE (and GIFT AFFIDAVIT, if applicable), you may register the vessel in your name at DMV. The vessel is no longer an abandoned vessel.

STEP 3: LAST OWNER OF RECORD DOES NOT RESPOND TO REQUEST OR OWNER UNKNOWN
If the last owner of record does not respond to your request or is unknown, you have the right to sell the vessel after storing it for at least 60 days. The date on which you contacted law enforcement, as specified on the incident report, is the start of the 60-day period. Five days before the sale of the vessel, the person storing the vessel is required to send a NOTICE OF INTENT TO SELL to the Commissioners of Environmental Protection, Motor Vehicles, and Transportation, and to the vessel owner, if known. If the vessel owner is unknown, the person storing the vessel is required to advertise the sale three times in a newspaper published or having a circulation in the town where the vessel is being stored, beginning at least five days before the sale. The person storing the vessel may sell the vessel to themselves for the costs incurred in storing the vessel.

You should include the following information in the newspaper advertisement and the NOTICE OF INTENT TO SELL: point of contact information, including a telephone number; the location at which the vessel was found; a detailed description of the vessel, include the make, model, type of boat, type of propulsion, name (if any), color, length and any numbers or identifiable marks; and any other information that may help someone to identify the vessel.

STEP 4: POST-SALE
After selling the vessel, the person storing it must deduct any costs incurred by law enforcement in taking the vessel into their custody and storing it, if they did so, and by such person in storing the vessel, and distribute the remaining funds from the sale to the owner of the vessel or the owner's legal representative. If the person storing the vessel is not in the business of storing vessels, the person storing the vessel should contact three vessel storage businesses to determine the average cost to store a vessel for the same time period. If the owner or the owner's legal representative does not claim the balance within one year from the date of sale, the balance must be turned over to the state.

STEP 5: HOW TO REGISTER ABANDONED VESSEL
To register the vessel, the new owner must provide to the DMV the following documents to prove that the above-stated process was followed:

Bill of sale 
Copy of the police report, evidencing the date on which law enforcement was contacted 
The return receipt of the certified letter demonstrating that the letter was either accepted by the vessel owner (and they did not respond) or was returned undelivered (if the vessel owner was known) 
Copies of the NOTICE OF INTENT TO SELL sent to the Commissioners of Environmental Protection, Motor Vehicles, and Transportation, and to the vessel owner (if the vessel owner was known) 
Letter received from the DEP in response to the NOTICE OF INTENT TO SELL, indicating that the vessel has not been reported stolen 
Copies of the newspaper advertisements, or proof of publication, for the sale of the vessel (if the vessel owner was unknown) 
Ownership Affidavit (DMV Form B-203) 
Application for Vessel Registration (DMV Form B-148) and appropriate vessel registration fee 
If you have any questions or require additional information, please contact the Connecticut Department of Environmental Protection, Boating Division, at 860-434-8638 or [email protected].

Content Last Updated on July 11, 2008.

Hope this helps, good luck and Take Care!

Ben


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

I would think that if the boat was worth anything, the yard would have gone through the process of taking possession of the title and then selling the boat.
You will be faced with a LOT of work to get this boat right.


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## Yorksailor (Oct 11, 2009)

"Men and boats rot in port" 

I would be very careful of an abandonded boat. I met a lady who was given a boat and was $1,000 behind in the first two days...$650 was for the emergency tow...she called our sailing club trying to give it away.

Phil


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## stollie (Sep 24, 2009)

Wow, thanks everyone for such an impressive response! I'm a lot less in the dark now, and will definitely heed advice to tread carefully. The info. on state regulations was gold; I'll try to find NJ's regs. and procedures.

I'm reading up on Don Casey's book on inspecting an aging saiboat, and if and when it gets to it, I'll be looking over the boat the best I can. With that, I'll try to come up with some figures on how much it would cost to make the boat shipshape and outfitted, and if I want to spend that money or just look for a boat in better shape that costs the same amount.

If I end up trying to get the boat, I'm hoping I'll be able to get the sails and other removables from the owner.

Please keep the communication coming. Thanks.


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## nereussailor (Nov 3, 2007)

I purchased my boat in Wisconsin under similar circumstances. It had been left in the yard for over five years, and the fees for work done on the boat and storage were greater than the value of the boat. The yard filed all of the paperwork for taking possession of the boat, and sold it to me. I ended up with a good deal, and they recouped some of there expenses. probably enough to cover the topside painting and the bottom job. 
The boat was in great shape from the toerail down, but the interior was as deniseO30 stated, it might have 3 feet of water inside the cabin. 
Mine had a high waterline about 6 inches above the sole. I put a lot of work into restoring the interior, but it was worth it to me. I'll probably never recoupe what I have stuck into the boat, but I have had it for almost five years, and it looks and sails great. 
I'm looking at a 35 ft Hunter right now that was left in a yard. I and am working with the yard to get them to get title of the boat. It might take a while, but I'll eventually get it. 
Good luck with your search, and hope that you end up with the boat that you want. 
Dirtboy, If you have any more information on the process in florida, I'd appreciate it. I haven't worked with Florida boats yet, but could use all the help I can get.

Dave


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## blowinstink (Sep 3, 2007)

NJ has a fairly new law (maybe 2 years max) so make sure you get the new one not the old one . . ..

Best bet would be to simply talk to the yard owner. He knows the law (because half his business is collecting late payment) and you can't obtain the title -- he needs to.

What kinda sailboat are we taking about anyway?


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## stollie (Sep 24, 2009)

Update:

I was able to speak to the yard's owner, to get a look inside the cabin, and a much closer look in general.

The boat has about 3 inches of water inside...I wonder how much damage that does to a fiberglass boat, but there's no engine or other mechanical stuff to get damaged. He said the only way to get the water out is to pump it out. I'll go armed to inspect another day, and will probably pump out the water.

The guy also told me he should be able to get the title in the Spring, and that it takes about 6 weeks. When I asked him for an estimated price, he gave me a figure, then said he's lost much money in fees, then stopped himself. I gave him my name and number and asked him to call me when he had an update.

I figure when the time's right, I'll offer about 2/3 of what he told me, as the money he's out has nothing to do with the fair market value of the boat, right? 

Some of the cards I have: I'm planning on keeping the boat at that yard as it's conveniently located; they have mooring space; somebody who has their boat there has high praise for the place, and that the guy is a straight shooter; I'll be having the yard doing work that I can't or don't have time to do myself. So basically, I'll be keeping the business there. 

Still wondering if I'll be able to find the current owner and get the sails, etc..

That's the new developments, so please chew on it and keep the advice flowing, as this newbie needs it.

Thanks again.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Stollie-

I'd also recommend you read the *Boat Inspection Trip Tips* thread I started, as it will help you determine what problems the boat has and whether it is worth looking into further.


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## stollie (Sep 24, 2009)

OK, thanks, sailingdog, will do.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Stollie where are you in NJ I'm just across the bridge in Bristol pa. What make and size boat is it? New sails for a boat around 30ft are going to cost close to 3K. add that to the equasion. 
Water in the boat will cause odors that you can never quite get rid of. If the water has frozen over the years and most likely has, it can delam the fiberglass. I'd just throw the guy a number and ignore his losses. they already lost the $. You may want to contact Don at G winters sailing in Riverside and see what they have "laying around" Or!!!! you can buy my boat! LOL


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

try to get the water out before winter if you are really still interested


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## n0w0rries (May 17, 2009)

stollie said:


> Update:
> as the money he's out has nothing to do with the fair market value of the boat, right?


Right.

Estimate your cost to make everything ship shape, and then multiply it by two.
Add that to what you are going to pay for the boat
Check around to see what kind of boat you can get for that money.

It's a buyers market.


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## tailchaser (Feb 15, 2013)

i purchased an abondoned boat from a storage yard with out a tittle and i am trying to tittle it. I have sent letters to the owner and they have been returned. i called the fwc and they said since it is not on public waters they could not help me.. today i have been to the dmv and the court house with no luck. can anyone help me with how i should proceed? i have read and reread article 705 in fl and cannot find what the next step is. thank you


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Did you get a bill of sale from the yard? How about a receipt?

from Official Website Florida Department of Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles



> Notify your local tax collector or license plate agency in writing stating the problem and provide the vessel's Florida registration number. The local tax collector or license plate agency may provide the name and address of the titled owner with the necessary instructions for transferring the ownership of the vessel into your name. However, some agencies do not provide ownership information for vessels to the public. Instead, as stated in DMV Procedure TL-07, they may provide the titled owner (by writing directly to the owner of record) with the purchaser's released contact information (name and address) and any necessary instructions. The owner then has the option to contact the purchaser to assist them. You may also contact the department to obtain ownership information for the vessel owner by completing a form HSMV 85054, Motor Vehicle/Vessel Records Request...
> 
> _What should the purchaser of a vessel do if the titled owner does not assist in obtaining the certificate of title or an executed bill of sale?
> _
> A Florida court order would be required to issue a certificate of title in the purchaser's name.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

It may help to look at this too Marine Survey 101 (how to do your own marine survey).


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Tailchaser... you actually plopped down money for a boat without a title?


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## NJBoatDad (Apr 2, 2013)

Wow! Such an interesting thread! I hadn't really thought about how "Many yard owners will not attempt to get the title for an abandoned boat unless they actually have someone interested in it, or if it's a boat that's in demand and easily sold. Because once it is theirs, it's inventory they have to pay property taxes on, along with the transfer fees. Plus, once it's theirs they are also 100% responsible for it."


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

In general you have to have some kind of lien sale to turn possession with a storage debt into titled ownership for any kind of property such as cars, boats, etc.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

First it is different in every state 

In NY I do not know the exact date they started titles BUT it was sometime Around 1987 which makes for a whole lot of boats without titles 

Boats before that date they had simple transferable registrations

BUT it is not THAT simple again because if a registrations was not renewed for ? 6 or 7 years they even only give even the orginal owner a six week one while it has to go through a search in Albany 

Now it has always been easy to get a mechanics liens and place a hold on and item being sold BUT it starts to cost money to force a sale and there mostly projects with marginal value


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## djaustralia (Mar 17, 2013)

Wouldn't it be easier to just find another boat? It's a long way to get possession. If you can find the owner and buy it, the yard owner may stick you with owed fee's and deny you access to the boat. If you can't find them then the yard owner needs to take official measures to take possession (as it's on his property) and THEN offer it to you, probably for a kings ransom. Theres easier ways to get a boat. Try an auction house that deals with repossesed or abandoned boats or even a police auction dealing with confiscated boats. OR you could just look in the classified's !


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## sony2000 (Jan 30, 2013)

The yard could want a buyer first, before they go after title. The offer should be written, and witnessed, with all the escape clauses possible for non performance. 
I witnessed widow's home that could only be sold at auction because of minor children involved. So when a buyer presented himself, an auction was held. My Club did the same thing, and held an auction.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

tailchaser, when it comes to legalities you need to be specific.

What kind of boat was it? Is there a HIN on it? 

Mail to the owner came back, did you try to search for them otherwise? Did the marina give you their last address or was there a registration number on the boat? Did you do a title search on the boat, was it previously titled?


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## sailvayu (Feb 3, 2013)

Here in NC all you need is a notarized statement from the last titled owner stating that he/she no longer has any interest in the vessel. After that you submit to wildlife for a new registration and title. They will check records for stolen vessels and if it does not show up you are good to go. Of course all states are different but if you could get such a statement it might help the process along. Just a thought, might be a good first step.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

sailvayu said:


> Here in NC all you need is a notarized statement from the last titled owner stating that he/she no longer has any interest in the vessel...


Sounds nice in theory, but in practice the owners of these direlict boats owe thousands of dollars in back storage fees (and sometimes boat loans), and would never create a paper trail to help the creditors track them down.

Our marina has over 10 abandoned vessels right now. The marina is very vulnerable because so many slips were empty over the winter. In the last month or so, several vessel were driven in at night, tied up at the T-ends, and the anonymous owners just left. The marina is not installing security cameras to prevent this in the future, but not sure how that will work at nighttime.

The T-ends are typically used for the biggest boats (big profits for the marina), so this really hurts the marina financially. The paying customers can't get in until the marina does something about these boats, but I suspect there are liability issues if they touch the boats. (Last one to touch it has responsibility for fuel leaks, disposal costs, etc.)


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## robertluster (Dec 9, 2008)

Dirtboy said:


> Here in Florida it's quite easy to get title to a boat abandonded in a yard. We find it necessary to do this two to three times a year as we are a service department, not a storage yard. It cost us about $300 to get the title and then we either sell them or junk them, either way we don't have room to store them.
> 
> DB


Do you see any go past that are NOT junk in your opinion? Is finding something that is mostly solid and merely ugly a popular fairy tale?


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## joethecobbler (Apr 10, 2007)

start looking around, the more you look around the more you'll find. when the economy chokes a little the toys go first.
you can pay whatever you want for whatever you want. you just have to be patient and knowledgeable of the available "stock"
stay focussed, remember your cash will spend anywhere anytime,their building more boats every day


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## Dirtboy (Jul 13, 2009)

robertluster said:


> Do you see any go past that are NOT junk in your opinion? Is finding something that is mostly solid and merely ugly a popular fairy tale?


In our case we would repair and re-sell anything we could if we could make a profit. The only ones we sold weren't really worth fixing. I worked (retired now) for a large motorcycle/jet boat/pwc dealership; we had the resources to invest time and money in a few projects a year.

I can only think of one time we got ownership of a pristine jet boat. The owner had been a total dick to deal with and had pissed off just about everyone in the dealership from owner to wash boy. Well, he lost his job and blew up one engine all in one week. We got the engine repaired under warranty but he wouldn't come in and pay his portion of the bill. He was using us as free storage and we notified him (certified mail) of the storage charges but he'd promiss to come in, pay up and pick up, but never did. Did I mention he was a dick? LOL He was an anal dick; the boat was perfect. He just failed to keep his promiss one time too many ...... we sold that thing a week after we got the title.

Moral of the story ..... if there's money to be made, the dealer's gonna make it.

DB


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

The only caveat being that things can get complicated when the vessel in question is federally documented and a boatyard or marina, files in state court and gets a title that way.

You wouldn't want to be the one who bought that boat if the owner came back and filed in federal court to challenge the use of the state law to seize and sell his boat.

The federal Commercial Instruments and Maritime Lien Act says expressly that it, not any conflicting state law, controls. (Title 46 USC Section 31307.) Worst case scenario, the sale would be undone, and just possibly the yard would face liability for “conversion”, or civil theft.

Something to keep in mind.


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