# The Bumfuzzles are back



## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

They bought a monohull and are taking it to Mexico. No monohull
experience, never been out the SF Gate, no trial run, pregnant
wife and toddler. first day they made it from SF to Santa Cruz.
Interesting read:

http://www.bumfuzzle.com/

Dabnis


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## 123456Wannasail654321 (Jun 14, 2010)

all I can say is they have circumnavigated the world. I think they will be ok.


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

123456Wannasail654321 said:


> all I can say is they have circumnavigated the world. I think they will be ok.


They are now broken down in Santa Cruz with what appears to be
a fuel related problem. Pat said that the filter was "dry" when he opened
it and thinks it is a bad fuel pump. I think that if the pickup tubes in
the tank(s) have screens on them they may be blocked. Sometime back
I emailed them about the boat sitting unused for so many years there
may be a lot of grunge growing in the tanks? Ali replied that they have thought about that but had it "covered". I also suggested that
they make a couple of trial runs out the Gate, preferably with another
experienced hand on board. Ali said "we don't do trial runs, we just go, 
it's all part of the adventure." She was always very polite and thanked
me for my concerns. It will be interesting to see what the problem
turns out to be.

bumfuzzle.com

Dabnis


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## 123456Wannasail654321 (Jun 14, 2010)

Yes I agree that from my mindset and how they do things I would a lot more cautious. Especially when my children and wife are are aboard. but hey they like it that way and it its works for them so...

we'll see.

How long does it take to sail from san fran to mexico, and where in Mexico are they going?


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## imagine2frolic (Aug 7, 2008)

I believe it is less than 500 miles? If I remember correctly they have 100 mile plus boat. I like them but that comment worries me, that they don´t do trial runs, especially with a child aboard........*i2f*


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

123456Wannasail654321 said:


> Yes I agree that from my mindset and how they do things I would a lot more cautious. Especially when my children and wife are are aboard. but hey they like it that way and it its works for them so...
> 
> we'll see.
> 
> How long does it take to sail from San fran to mexico, and where in Mexico are they going?


I agree, but with a very pregnant wife and toddler on board he would
be better off by himself, in my opinion. How long? Without getting the
maps or charts out, I am guessing SF to San Diego is about 550+ miles.
San Diego to Puerto Vallarta, MEXICO, (I think that is where they are going?
their website is down now.), is about 1,100 miles. From Monterey
to Morro Bay is about 140 miles, no harbors in between and Morro Bay
can break when rough. Don't know if or how many harbors there are
between San Diego to Puerto Vallarta? Not that my opinion matters
but I think They would have been better off having it delivered.
Sounds like they have adequate funds from their comments on
their website? None of my business however. I wish them well
and hope this is the last of their problems.

Dabnis


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## Skipper Jer (Aug 26, 2008)

Odd. I too emailed him about the fuel problem. Twice, once about the boat sitting for so long and again after he blogged about bleeding the fuel line when the engine quit. I also suggested a few trail runs in the bay but got the same response, they just go.


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

As mentioned earlier all of this is really none of my business, but I hate
to sit back doing nothing while watching someone walk right
into a buzz saw.

Dabnis


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

dabnis said:


> I agree, but with a very pregnant wife and toddler on board he would
> be better off by himself, in my opinion. How long? Without getting the
> maps or charts out, I am guessing SF to San Diego is about 550+ miles.
> San Diego to Puerto Vallarta, MEXICO, (I think that is where they are going?
> ...


He is now by himself, did a temporary fix on the fuel problem,
heading south, not sure exactely where? Their website gives details
and is a very interesting read:

bumfuzzle.com

Dabnis


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## PaulfromNWOnt (Aug 20, 2010)

Did I read that right? Did he bypass the fuel filter?

Uh oh....


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

I think he put in a temporary in-line filter, not sure how big?

Dabnis


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## Skipper Jer (Aug 26, 2008)

I have a new image on my desktop screen.

A nice sunset over an anchorage with sailboats in the foreground:
caption:
PESSIMISM: Anything that can go wrong and doesn't go wrong is just waiting for a much worse time to go wrong.


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

dabnis said:


> . . . . he would be better off by himself . . . .


Mmmmm . . . .



dabnis said:


> They would have been better off having it delivered.


What's the point. That's like owning a Ferrari and having some one drive it to your favourite car show while you take a cab so that you can be there with the Ferrari.

I don't know these people, never read their website but like somebody else commented, if they have circumnavigated the world, they're ahead of 90% of the folks on this board. He clearly has skills (and confidence) that others don't recognise.


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

Omatako said:


> Mmmmm . . . .
> 
> What's the point. That's like owning a Ferrari and having some one drive it to your favourite car show while you take a cab so that you can be there with the Ferrari.
> 
> I don't know these people, never read their website but like somebody else commented, if they have circumnavigated the world, they're ahead of 90% of the folks on this board. He clearly has skills (and confidence) that others don't recognise.


No doubt he has skills and experience. My concern was that they were
trying to cover a long way on what can be a very treacherous stretch
of ocean with a very pregnant wife and mobile baby on board. If they
were doing this before the baby and her being pregnant it would be
similar to their other trip aroind the world. The fact they didn't do a few
trial runs before hand didn't help them. They were lucky the first
failure happened where they had good sea room, not close to the lee shore.
Their website has a lot of details and is interesting, to me. As mentioned earlier, I wish them all the best. I think they made the right decision
to have Pat sail on on his own without putting Ali and the baby at risk.

Dabnis


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

dabnis said:


> No doubt he has skills and experience. My concern was that they were trying to cover a long way on what can be a very treacherous stretch of ocean with a very pregnant wife and mobile baby on board.


Don't want to get in a bun fight about this but 550 miles is 4 days sailing so if the baby was due inside the coming week your point would be taken. And babies are sailing on hundreds of boats all over the globe in all kinds of conditions. I have friends who had a 18 month old baby on board when their second child was born AT SEA. It's about confidence in your ability with things other than sailing.

And whilst I have only sailed away from the US West Coast and not along it, I'm probably not that qualified to comment but I've always had the impression that sailing south from California is an "easy" trip compared to sailing north along the same coast.

Yes, he could have done a quick service on the fuel system but maybe he has the confidence/skill to sail his vessel without the engine if that has to be so. I sailed my boat from California to New Zealand 2 weeks after buying it, 3 hours at sea and no engine maintenance before leaving. Yes the engine did stop running on that trip but due to things that would not have been evident had I serviced the engine and that I fixed it at sea.

Engines often stop working at sea, I have had problems with engines that wouldn't run more than once in my sailing career and I do take due care with maintenance. If the solution to a possible breakdown is a delivery then confidence is evidently lacking.


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

Omatako said:


> Don't want to get in a bun fight about this but 550 miles is 4 days sailing so if the baby was due inside the coming week your point would be taken. And babies are sailing on hundreds of boats all over the globe in all kinds of conditions. I have friends who had a 18 month old baby on board when their second child was born AT SEA. It's about confidence in your ability with things other than sailing.
> 
> And whilst I have only sailed away from the US West Coast and not along it, I'm probably not that qualified to comment but I've always had the impression that sailing south from California is an "easy" trip compared to sailing north along the same coast.
> 
> ...


Agree, no gunfight. My wife explained to me that Ali has a special kind of 
pregnancy, forgot the name, where if she goes into labor without
immediate medical assistance, she could easily bleed to death. Not
a good situation at sea. My experience is north of San Francisco to
Victoria BC. I have also heard that Southern California waters are
less severe and he has the advantage of going downhill, although I have
heard Point Conception, which he cleared yesterday, can be a wild ride,
especially going north. We are just starting our "good weather"
season so hopefully he should be OK from there on down. If you have
the time, his latest post describes him running one tank dry and having
to bleed the system at sea. Sounds similar to what you described.

Dabnis


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

dabnis said:


> Agree, no gunfight. My wife explained to me that Ali has a special kind of
> pregnancy, forgot the name, where if she goes into labor without
> immediate medical assistance, she could easily bleed to death. Not
> a good situation at sea. My experience is north of San Francisco to
> ...


Forgot this, SF to San Diego is about 550 miles, I think. San Diego
to Puerto Vallarta is about 1,100 miles more. Unless they ran 24 /7
I think that could take 35 days or more if they stopped at night. 
She is due about the middle of August or so, leaving about a 30 day 
or less cushion, not a lot for her kind of pregnancy. Apparently they didn't think the risk was worth it having her go all the way to Mexico
on the boat?

Dabnis


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

dabnis said:


> Forgot this, SF to San Diego is about 550 miles, I think. San Diego
> to Puerto Vallarta is about 1,100 miles more. Unless they ran 24 /7
> I think that could take 35 days or more if they stopped at night.
> She is due about the middle of August or so, leaving about a 30 day
> ...


35 days for 1100 miles? That's 32 miles a day. I reckon I could tow my boat with my tender and do that kind of mileage.

And how/why would anyone stop at night? Is this actually done on a passage?


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

Omatako said:


> 35 days for 1100 miles? That's 32 miles a day. I reckon I could tow my boat with my tender and do that kind of mileage.
> 
> And how/why would anyone stop at night? Is this actually done on a passage?


Oma,

Very rough figures: Total SF to Puerto Vallarta(spelling?) = 1,650 miles,
5 to 6 mph for 8 hours = about 50 miles per day or about 30 to 35 days
with no lay over days. Your mileage may vary. From their website
it appeared they planned to stop at night, not sure how many. 
Anyway, it appears she may rejoin him from Oxnard to San Diego
but get off again for the 1,100 mile leg to Puerto Vallarta. They
haven't updated for a few days.

Dabnis


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## night0wl (Mar 20, 2006)

Anyone getting worried about Mr. Bumfuzzle? Nothing on the webpage or on facebook about completing the passage...hasn't been an update in a while


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

night0wl said:


> Anyone getting worried about Mr. Bumfuzzle? Nothing on the webpage or on facebook about completing the passage...hasn't been an update in a while


They just updated and are at Catalina Island. They discovered a leak in the top part of their old tank. It appears the engine is OK? no mention of
a problem. Looks like she & the baby will get off at San diego and he
will single hand it the rest of the way. No mention of how she and the baby will get to Puerto Vallerta? In an earlier post Pat said:

"She doesn't have an exactly risk-free pregnancy going because of her full placenta previa. If she were to go into labor with this condition while at sea her and the baby could be in serious trouble. The other reason we've decided to go this route is that she really is not able to help out with boat handling anyway. I'd essentially be single handing the boat with her and Ouest onboard."

Basically, that is what I said in an earlier post, "he would be better off by
himself".

bumfuzzle.com

Dabnis


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Omatako said:


> Mmmmm . . .
> 
> I don't know these people, never read their website but like somebody else commented, if they have circumnavigated the world, they're ahead of 90% of the folks on this board. He clearly has skills (and confidence) that others don't recognise.


Well, I'm not so sure about that&#8230;

No question, a circumnavigation is an impressive accomplishment&#8230; So is climbing Everest. But to suggest that someone with minimal experience who might have paid a climbing guide $70K to hold his hand to the summit might be therefore placed ahead or above perhaps tens of thousands of other mountaineers who will never stand atop Everest, well - that's not a given, in my book&#8230;

Any successful voyage involves a measure of good fortune, of course&#8230;But anyone who transits The Devil's Backbone around North Eleuthera in rage conditions and failing light, or sails around the world without a single paper chart aboard, for example, has had a bit of luck on their side. They might be a single lightning strike away from an entirely different outcome&#8230;

Clearly, they have their own way of doing things&#8230; But I'm hard pressed to understand the "skills" involved in sailing halfway across the Pacific before realizing your primary winches are actually 2-speed, or the wisdom of sailing around the world without ever learning how to tie a bowline, or what the telltales on your sails are for&#8230; Much less, proclaiming such willful ignorance with such apparent pride, or at least bemusement&#8230; Sorry, but admiration for such an attitude towards seamanship is completely lost on me...

Just a hunch, but I suspect such claims are simply part of their "schtick", it's hard to imagine someone could sail around the world, and have actually learned so little&#8230; But, who knows?

It will be interesting to see how many of their followers "Buy them a pizza" this time out&#8230; Their initial "bumfuzzlement" as a couple of adventurous young adults clearly gained an audience, but I'm guessing the introduction of a couple of young children into the mix this time might appear considerably less charming, to some, at least&#8230; Once one becomes a parent, taking your family on the ocean in a small boat, IMHO there should rightfully be a shift in the mantra from "Just Do It", to perhaps "Just Do It _WELL_"&#8230;


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## night0wl (Mar 20, 2006)

Oh come on...so many freaking armchair sailors. They're out there doing it, and we're not. So lets all shut up and give them some credit. Who cares if they only figured out 1 speed of their winch...they've gotten to experience some things we will only dream about. And if anything happens to them, God Bless 'em...at least they are out there living the dream rather than filling up the database of some stupid server in a datacenter with blathering diatribes about pomp and circumstance of sailing. Lighten up all...I for one will be cheering them on all the way.


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

JonEisberg said:


> Well, I'm not so sure about that&#8230;
> 
> No question, a circumnavigation is an impressive accomplishment&#8230; So is climbing Everest. But to suggest that someone with minimal experience who might have paid a climbing guide $70K to hold his hand to the summit might be therefore placed ahead or above perhaps tens of thousands of other mountaineers who will never stand atop Everest, well - that's not a given, in my book&#8230;
> 
> ...


Well said!! Adding a wife with a complicated pregnancy and a little toddler
into the mix sure does change things. Omatako's friends that gave birth at sea must have had a lot of confidence in their medical capabilities. It appears they did OK? Risky business?

Dabnis


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## ScottUK (Aug 16, 2009)

> No question, a circumnavigation is an impressive accomplishment&#8230; So is climbing Everest. But to suggest that someone with minimal experience who might have paid a climbing guide $70K to hold his hand to the summit might be therefore placed ahead or above perhaps tens of thousands of other mountaineers who will never stand atop Everest, well - that's not a given, in my book&#8230;


Having just perused the bumfuzzle website I don't understand the relevance of this statement. Nowhere did I see them having a 'guide' during their trip in fact doing it by themselves was one of the main themes of the site. I also equate seamanship with common sense and it appears to me from their success they definitely have that attribute.


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

night0wl said:


> Oh come on...so many freaking armchair sailors. They're out there doing it, and we're not. So lets all shut up and give them some credit.


Yep that's the way I see it.



ScottUK said:


> Having just perused the bumfuzzle website I don't understand the relevance of this statement. Nowhere did I see them having a 'guide' during their trip in fact doing it by themselves was one of the main themes of the site. I also equate seamanship with common sense and it appears to me from their success they definitely have that attribute.


How did you know what I was going to say? That's just creepy


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## ScottUK (Aug 16, 2009)

> How did you know what I was going to say? That's just creepy


I guess from the time we spent together you have had a great influence on me! Can't wait to get back to NZ but for now I have go dig in the mud for a few weeks though I am going to race to Ireland and back at the end of the month. So I got that going for me...which is nice.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

ScottUK said:


> JonEisberg said:
> 
> 
> > Well, I'm not so sure about that&#8230;
> ...


OK, perhaps the analogy to being guided up Everest is not the best one, but what I was trying to get at was this. I was simply responding to the other poster's suggestion that the accomplishment of a circumnavigation by definition implies some sort of competence or skill set that elevates them above "90% of the posters here", or whatever, is not necessarily true&#8230; I have known many, many sailors who will never sail around the globe who are far more accomplished that it appears the Bums will ever be. Again, a circumnavigation is a very impressive achievement, but in today's world, not necessarily the sort of certification or crowning achievement it might have been in the days before GPS, for example&#8230;

Make no mistake, I'm very impressed by much of what Pat and Ali have done, and I certainly enjoyed following their travels&#8230; Particularly much of their inland travel in places like the Middle East, they are very intrepid explorers, and quite willing to venture into some places I'd likely have reservations about&#8230; Their blog was very entertaining, and I'd guess they would be an interesting pair to run into out there, no question&#8230; And while finding some of their whining about things like being unable to find a decent pizza in the Marquesas slightly off-putting, I'm willing to concede that's largely part of their "schtick", and they likely found the Marquesas to "suck" slightly less than they claimed&#8230;

As to their seamanship being defined by common sense, we'll just have to agree to disagree&#8230; Perhaps I'm hopelessly Old School, but I still think it's foolish to do things like transiting a coral reef passage such as the Devils' Backbone in rage conditions and poor light against the advice of locals who've been doing it their entire lives, or set out across an ocean without so much as a paper chart, or the basic navigational tools to employ in the event of a failure of their computer and/or electronics&#8230;

There will always be those who embark on such voyages with what many might perceive as minimal experience - Tania Aebi is one of the best known examples&#8230; However, Tania learned quickly as she went, being forced to find her own way without electronic means of position finding is a big inducement to the development of other skills of seamanship, of course&#8230;

What we're seeing today, however, is the widespread phenomenon of many people going places they never would were it not for GPS. What was formerly perhaps the most daunting aspect of a Milk Run circumnavigation - navigating an area like the Tuomotus relying on celestial and DR navigation alone, has been reduced to pushing a few buttons, or scrolling with a computer mouse&#8230; NTTAWTT, but such ease at now finding one's way can certainly change fundamental attitudes towards what constitutes competence and seamanship in a fundamental way&#8230;

Again, I'm simply perplexed by how little the Bums learned on their first time around, and their curious determination to AVOID learning certain rudiments such as tying a bowline, or reading their jib's telltales&#8230; I know, that's probably just me&#8230; As many suggest, however, bottom line is they're out there doing it - good for them, I wish them well, and am still inclined to believe that a bit more of the whole experience has rubbed off on them in the development of their seamanship skills than they're willing to admit... (grin)


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

Here is some else who followed their exploits with admiration.

AND also someone who owned his 38 footer for some time before discovering that his genoa winches were two speed. In my defence they were unusual bottom acting two speed winches and the second speed was accessed by pulling the fixed lever out, which required a very firm tug. I had dismantled them for cleaning and oiling and was puzzeling over the mechansim when the light dawned. My partenr gave me serious s*** over this as she had really struggled with genoa trimming and had developed some serious biceps as a result. [smile]


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Frankly, I'm a bit surprised no one has commented on the timing of their voyage to Puerta Vallarta, well into the start of what is forecast to be a pretty active Eastern Pacific hurricane season&#8230; I realize they're not The Rallying Kind, but there's actually a fairly compelling reason why fleets like the Caribbean 1500 and the Baja Ha-Ha don't head south until November&#8230;










At any rate, I certainly hope they plan to dedicate a bit more than the "5 minutes per week" they proclaimed to spend on weather analysis their first time around&#8230;

On the other hand, perhaps it's just worrywart armchair sailors like me who concern themselves with such an incidental matter&#8230; (grin)


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

Based on what I think I remember from their website, they originally planned to leave SF right around the first of May. Bad weather windows and fuel delivery problems caused about a 5 week delay. No update since June 11 when they were at Catalina. Sea conditions all the way to San Diego look to be about as good as they can get.

Dabnis


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Chris12345 said:


> Haha, John, now what are you trying to tell us with that post?
> 
> That they paid someone 70K to guide them around the world?
> 
> Do you have any good reason to say that, or did just make it up?


Well, I've re-read my post, and what I wrote was pretty much what I was trying to say, no more, no less&#8230; Not sure how I could make it much plainer&#8230;

I was responding to another poster's claim that the Bums' completion of a circumnavigation places them "ahead of" 90% of us here, or wherever&#8230; I was simply using the example of those who are guided up Everest as an _analogy_ how some today can accomplish something quite impressive with a modest amount of experience or learned skills, but that the mere fact of such an accomplishment - however impressive or rare it might me - does not by definition elevate them to some amorphous level "ahead of" or superior to others who might not have, in this instance, yet sailed around the world&#8230;



Chris12345 said:


> Or that you are plain envious?


Nope, not really&#8230; I'm pretty content with the choices I've made so far, have managed to see a fair bit of the world, have spent a significant portion of my life out on the water, and lucked into a way of getting to play with some pretty cool boats, and get paid for it in the bargain&#8230;










And, if I _were_ gonna pick a circumnavigator to be envious of, it certainly wouldn't be someone who went around on a multihull&#8230; (grin)



Chris12345 said:


> Why don't you just entertain us with a blog of your adventures, that I am sure are all done _WELL_?
> 
> Tsk.


Dude, I've been telling Cyber Sailing Stories since before this place was founded, and many of them are mis-adventures, no question&#8230; If you doubt that, email Herb McCormick at CRUISING WORLD, ask him who the internet's #1 Sailing Forum Gasbag is&#8230; (grin)

Sorry, I'll have to pass on the blog, that's just not my thing&#8230; Hell, I don't even a freakin' _Boat Card_ made up yet, so of course my kroozing kredentials are highly suspect to begin with&#8230;


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Heh-heh. Now THAT'S a post! Nicely played JonE!


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

what's a Boat Card ?


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

JonEisberg said:


> I was responding to another poster's claim that the Bums' completion of a circumnavigation places them "ahead of" 90% of us here, or wherever. . . .


Mmmm, I suspect that may have been me and to reiterate the point, most posters on this forum haven't sailed out of sight of land, hell, some of us haven't sailed *at all*.

So I too stand by my point, I'd be more comfortable taking advice from someone who has sailed around the world no matter how shakily than from guys who have for many years been marooned on "Teak Reef" but waste no time offering sage advice.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Omatako said:


> Mmmm, I suspect that may have been me and to reiterate the point, most posters on this forum haven't sailed out of sight of land, hell, some of us haven't sailed *at all*.
> 
> So I too stand by my point, I'd be more comfortable taking advice from someone who has sailed around the world no matter how shakily than from guys who have for many years been marooned on "Teak Reef" but waste no time offering sage advice.


I've not been around here long enough to try to assess what percentage possess what experience or skills, you may very well be correct&#8230; I think what I was really responding to initially, was the implication that a circumnavigation represents some sort of pinnacle of sailing accomplishment in a similar sense that Everest does for mountaineers, and I would suggest that's not necessarily the case, is all&#8230; And, to me, it's not "obvious" that Pat possesses an array of sailing skills simply by virtue of having sailed around the world - especially after having claimed to still having no idea - nor apparently any serious interest in learning - something so elemental to most sailors as the function of his telltales, for example&#8230;

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one, I'm afraid the only thing that's obvious at this point is that I've certainly beaten this particular issue to death by now&#8230; (grin)



tdw said:


> what's a Boat Card ?


Wow, that's certainly proof positive that Oz really is located on the earthly equivalent of the dark side of the moon&#8230; (grin)

Probably more of an American thing, but The Boat Card has become one of those things cruisers no longer can appear to leave home without&#8230; Basically a business card for cruisers, often featuring a pic or line drawing of one's yacht, with names and contact info, Ham callsign etc if applicable&#8230;

They've become so commonplace among cruisers in the Bahamas, for example, I'm half expecting them to be a form of required identification to enter the country, before long&#8230; The look of disbelief that often accompanies my admission that I don't have a Boat Card, it virtually says "What??? How on earth did you ever make it here???" (grin)

Having a Boat Card makes perfect sense, of course, nothing wrong with that at all&#8230; Just not a priority for some of us, I suppose, just add it to the list of stuff one wonders how anyone ever went off cruising without&#8230; (grin)


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Well I will chime in on this too. THese are just my opinions - but...

If you and your spouse or partner want to circum the world on a pizza and a camera, god bless you. If you want to know nothing, not prepare, not try to prepare, but just want to go - then go! Don't let me stop you or anyone else. But if your arse finds yourself sinking, don't call me or the USCG or anyone else as you are going down. We should not have to risk our lives for your impromptu stupidity. DO not take a EPIRB. You have no business pushing it. Swim to shore, sail to shore, or die. 

Now I am not against people carrying a EPIRB, etc. I do. But I have done my best to practive seamanship in everything I do long before I leave the docks. SO I have no problem pushing the button should all hell break loose because I feel that I was a prudent sailr that had some bad luck or made some mistakes - but those mistakes were with the intention of doing it right to begin with and being careful.

However, what I see as a growing problem (much like Jon) is with the electronic age that people effectively, assuming they are smart enough to see the screens, turn the wheel left, right, etc and start the engine, is thtat they are now prepared to go anywhere and do anything. And if they run into problems, they know they can press the little button or call someone to come out and help them to save their dumb arses. Many years ago, you simply could not leave port without many of the basic navigation, sailing, and seamanship abilities lost on our generation as too much trouble or over planning. That is my issue. Take away the EPIRBS, VHF, SSB, cell phones, and electronics and many of these people would be climbing mountains instead.

Now, here is my REAL rub - what you want to do, as consenting adults, is up to you. But when you take a child in tow, I firmly believe you should take a very serious approach seamanship and what the hech you are doing. You have a choice as an adult, they do not. And when the boat is going down, "I'm sorry Timmy" just isn't going to cut it. Know your business inside-out. Overplan. Learn to plot. Be extra, extra careful. Recklessness has no place on a boat, and certainly no place on a boat with a child(ren).

My opinions.

Brian

PS Lets see, second time around now with kids, Pensacola for Christmas with them, Tortugas for Easter with them, Marathon for Thanksgiving, and many places in between. Now in Fort Myers Beach. SHove off tomorrow with kids for Cabbage Key, then Cayo Costa, then Marathon, then maybe another circle around Tortugas, then hopefully east to Bahamas, etc. Believe it or not folks, you can be careful with kids, show prudence, and still have fun and still do it. Had pretty good pizza yesterday too.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Also, we dont have boat cards (yet). Need to get some made though. ANyone in Keys or Bahamas, give me a shout. SHould be there around mid week next week. Would love to catch up with some more kid boats.


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

With no radio of any kind, no AIS, or radar, a mobile baby, a wife
with an advanced complicated pregnancy, I commented earlier
that "he would be better off by himself". Apparently they came
to the same conclusion so perhaps we should give them some credit in
the decision makling department. No progress update since the 28th.
Wonder what is happening?

Dabnis


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

BTW - to be clear, I am not being negative on this Bumfuzzle person. I have not read his blog. My comments are based on my opinions of going to sea in general.

Brian


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

Brian,

I totally agree with your comments about not putting others at risk
to save your hide. If you have some time their website is very
interesting with some vgreat pictures.

bumfuzzle.com

Dabnis


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Personally - I love these guys. The stuff they have seen and done???? Are you kidding me? Absolutely freakin' brilliant!

Whether they did it "right" or "wrong"...I could give a damn. They did it - and are still doing it. I would love to be in their flip-flops.

Go fuzzles!


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

Smack,

They experienced the fuel problem before they left, had no trial run before they left, had to be towed 4 times, no radio, AIS, or radar. I guess we
will have to politely dis-agree on the definition of "brilliant"? In their
defense, they did take the wife and baby off the boat. I think, however, they are a little short on the "preparation" aspect?

Dabnis


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

dabnis said:


> Smack,
> 
> They experienced the fuel problem before they left, had no trial run before they left, had to be towed 4 times, no radio, AIS, or radar. I guess we
> will have to politely dis-agree on the definition of "brilliant"? In their
> ...


We often tend to focus too much on "essential" gear, most cruisers make way too much of the list of various must-have crap&#8230; He doesn't need radar where they're headed, AIS is a nice-to-have, but by no means essential, and so on&#8230; What resides between the skipper's ears will always be far and away the most important bit of gear on any boat, wherever it may be headed&#8230;

As a result, I found his account of going over the side to attempt to free the float he'd snagged to be absolutely chilling, a sobering reminder of the notion that _not knowing what you do not know_ will always pose the greatest risk for any sailor&#8230;

For a singlehander, going over the side and under the boat probably poses the greatest risk of anything a solo sailor might be called upon to do offshore&#8230; I'd rather have to go to the top of the mast offshore anyday, and I HATE going aloft, even on a windless day at my own dock (grin)

Slipping into the water over the transom of a boat like that while still making way at 2 knots downwind is, IMHO, an absolutely _insane_ level of risk for a singlehander to take&#8230; Yeah, I know, that's probably just me&#8230;

That full-keeled Spindrift should heave-to pretty easily in 10 knots of wind, without too much trouble one should be able to reduce the drift to a more acceptable quarter of a knot, or so&#8230;

One really has to wonder whether the thought ever occurred to him, or if he has a clue how to do so? One can only hope he by now has at least some appreciation of the stupidity of the risk he took, and might think about taking a more seamanlike approach the next time&#8230;


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## manhattan08 (Mar 2, 2009)

What would have been the proper way to unhook the float from the shaft if you are single handling? Wouldn't it make the most sense to stop at a nearby marina and then dive under the boat? Is there a suggested way to do it while out at sea?

I am a fairly new at sailing and hope I never encounter this issue while out at sea.


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

JonEisberg said:


> We often tend to focus too much on "essential" gear, most cruisers make way too much of the list of various must-have crap&#8230; He doesn't need radar where they're headed, AIS is a nice-to-have, but by no means essential, and so on&#8230; What resides between the skipper's ears will always be far and away the most important bit of gear on any boat, wherever it may be headed&#8230;
> 
> As a result, I found his account of going over the side to attempt to free the float he'd snagged to be absolutely chilling, a sobering reminder of the notion that _not knowing what you do not know_ will always pose the greatest risk for any sailor&#8230;
> 
> ...


Maybe even just a radio? I want all the help I can get, kind of like studded tires when it gets icy. Perhaps I am somewhat on the timid side, but at least I (and the people I used to sail with) are still here.

Dabnis


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

manhattan08 said:


> What would have been the proper way to unhook the float from the shaft if you are single handling? Wouldn't it make the most sense to stop at a nearby marina and then dive under the boat? Is there a suggested way to do it while out at sea?
> 
> I am a fairly new at sailing and hope I never encounter this issue while out at sea.


OK, here are my thoughts&#8230; Mind you, they are rooted in a deep-seated fear I have of swimming in the open ocean from a boat, for some reason that's one of those childhood fear-of-a-monster-under-the-bed things I'll carry to my grave, I suppose - but I'll always try to avoid having to go into the water offshore, to begin with&#8230; (grin)

First, you can try to lessen the possibility to getting a wrap to begin with (Pat's incident gives some pause to the theory that a full keel with a prop in an aperture lessens the chance of snagging something, no guarantees on that, of course) If you have a split underbody, I think it's well worth stringing a taut length of light spectra or wire from the trailing edge of the keel to the bottom of your rudder, certainly can't hurt&#8230; And of course a rope cutter affixed to the shaft, while not necessarily a guarantee against a wrap, will almost always minimize the severity of one&#8230;

Given my paranoia about going in the water to begin with, I'd suggest trying to avoid doing so at all costs&#8230; Much will depend upon the configuration of your boat, but a lot can often be accomplished from a dinghy, and the use of a boat pole with something like a K-Bar knife lashed or hose-clipped to the end&#8230; And, an underwater "look bucket" can be invaluable in assessing the situation to begin with, assuming you can see the prop from the dinghy&#8230;

One gadget I recommend highly is a hooknife, pretty slick tool, which is affixed to the end of an extendable boat pole&#8230; I wouldn't sail in a place like Maine, for example, without one&#8230;

Sailor Solutions Razor sharp HOOKNIFE - CH01

If going in the water is your only recourse, of course you've got to park the boat first, stop it as best you can&#8230; Heaving-to will invariably be the best way to accomplish that, plus giving the added advantage of simply stabilizing the boat, and making it ride as quietly as possible, which will greatly reduce the risk of diving on a prop in open water&#8230; Even with a crew remaining on deck, I'd never dive on a prop without wearing a safety harness and being tethered to the boat, and having a floating tag line in addition&#8230; Neoprene gloves are a must for me, anything that lessens the chance of spilling my blood in the open ocean is a good thing&#8230;

One of my pet peeves about one of the trends I see in modern boat design comes into this discussion about now&#8230; I REALLY like the fact that my prop is as accessible as it is, whether from in the water, or above the surface&#8230;










the extremely broad, flat aft sections seen on so many boats today - especially when coupled with a saildrive unit that might be located practically in the center of the boat, WAY forward of where a conventional prop normally is - can make having to free dive on a prop a whole different ball game&#8230; One can easily expend most of your air, and energy, simply getting TO the problem area&#8230;

Last time I had to do this was a few years ago, when we picked up a huge mess of fishing net halfway between Hatteras and Tortola&#8230; The boat was a Trintella 50, and it took 3 of us working in shifts for about 90 minutes to clear the mess&#8230; Exhausting, very scary work for me, many times I only had a few seconds to work before it was time to re-surface, and I could only think how much easier it would have been to have dealt with on my own boat&#8230; Fortunately, the other two aboard were very experienced divers, I have to admit my own contribution to the whole exercise was minimal. Had I been alone, it would have taken a full day, at least - it was a very sobering reminder of the risk of sailing a boat of that size and underwater configuration alone or shorthanded, and the typical mom and pop cruising couple would likely have been sorely tested dealing with such a situation on such a boat, unless they were experienced divers with scuba gear aboard...

The broad, flat aft sections of modern boats represent another real danger to a diver in a seaway, as well&#8230; Even if you're not cruising with a bicycle aboard, IMHO anyone sailing offshore should give serious consideration to carrying a bicycle helmet, it's cheap insurance to wear one whether going up the mast, or diving under the boat in anything other than flat calm conditions&#8230; One could easily be injured, perhaps even knocked unconscious, especially beneath the expansive, flatter hull sections of today's boats, and especially in the area of a sugar scoop transom... People tend to think they're great for going into the water, and while that may be true in a calm anchorage, such a hull configuration can be very dangerous to a person in the water in a seaway, and some form of helmet can be a very nice thing to have aboard...

One more thing worthy of mention&#8230; The line most often snagged by boaters tends to be made of polypropylene, which can quickly melt around the shaft and form a very tough, hard "collar" which can be extremely hard to remove&#8230; You really need to shut down immediately and try to free your shaft of any and all line before this happens&#8230;

Of course, it's always possible one can snag a minor bit of a pot warp or water ski tow rope or monofilament fishing line without being aware of it, and create one of these solidified masses of melted line&#8230; This happened to me one year in the Bahamas, I was in the water scrubbing the waterline and having a look around the bottom when I noticed a bit of light line trailing from my running gear. I proceeded to extract it as best I could, which turned out to be a BIG mistake, I just should have left well enough alone for the time being, especially being in as remote a spot as I was at the time&#8230; What can happen, is the melted line can migrate into the cutless bearing, tear it up, and in effect wind up _replacing_ it&#8230; If you begin to suspect this has occurred, be very wary of trying to remove it, no need to ask me how I know this&#8230; (grin) Unfortunately, that realization did not manage to penetrate the extreme thickness of my skull until I had removed perhaps half of my "new" cutless bearing, and the result was a very long, slow sail in frustratingly light airs back to Florida before I could haul out, and fit a new cutless&#8230;


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## imagine2frolic (Aug 7, 2008)

Hove to is something taught in the begining of lessons. It was my first thought when I read he went into the water. With the boat making 2 knots. The boat should move with current only. This in theory keeps the boat from making way..........*i2f*


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## svHyLyte (Nov 13, 2008)

We have been acquaintances and and corresponded with Pat'n Ali for about the last four years--since their lay-over in NZ. I find it interesting that so many--mostly sitting at home dreaming about traveling aboard their boats--have so much criticism. Pat'n Ali just do it. They may not do it "Right", whatever that means, and they may not do it well, but somehow they always seem to get where they want to go, they pay their own way; and, they enjoy life pretty much without bothering anyone else. So what's the problem? Pat'n Ali pretty much give truth to the axiom that if one doesn't know what one "Can't Do" one just does it.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

svHyLyte said:


> We have been acquaintances and and corresponded with Pat'n Ali for about the last four years--since their lay-over in NZ. I find it interesting that so many--mostly sitting at home dreaming about traveling aboard their boats--have so much criticism. Pat'n Ali just do it. They may not do it "Right", whatever that means, and they may not do it well, but somehow they always seem to get where they want to go, they pay their own way; and, they enjoy life pretty much without bothering anyone else. So what's the problem? Pat'n Ali pretty much give truth to the axiom that if one doesn't know what one "Can't Do" one just does it.


Fair enough, and there's little question they've been the subject of some undue criticism from many quarters&#8230; However, they often give as good as they get, deriving obvious pleasure from defying convention, and pretty carefully monitoring the reactions they generate on forums like this&#8230; Nothing wrong with that, of course - "stirring the pot" can often generate a lively and informed debate, not to mention relieving the boredom - whether one is sitting at a computer in a marina in Cabo san Lucas, or at a desk here in New Jersey&#8230; (grin)

But by relating one's adventures in such detail in a blog that's achieved as much notoriety as theirs, surely they realize they're gonna invite or provoke some comments&#8230; Sorta goes with the territory, no?

Now, I've done my fair share of singlehanded sailing, and I've also done WAY more than my fair share of really stupid things on boats&#8230; So, I think it's fair to suggest that I've become pretty well-versed on the sort of stupid things that can get a singlehanded sailor into trouble&#8230; And, in my opinion, what Pat did by going over the stern on a boat still making way at 2 knots offshore was a really, REALLY stupid thing to do&#8230;

Sorry, but when I read something like that, chances are I'm gonna comment on it&#8230; Are we really better served here, to let such a thing pass without remarking upon it, simply because Pat seems like a really nice guy who never bothers anybody, and "always seems to get where he's going"?


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

*AIS is great*



Chris12345 said:


> AIS is BS in most places of the world outside the big container ports/lines. What percentage of boats do you think has AIS?


I don't think you understand what AIS is all about. In big container ports you can see the ships and keep out of the way. It is great when you are in distant waters and ships 'see' you with AIS and take action to avoid. I have had AIS for two years (about 15,000 miles of offshore sailing) and have had fewer problems with ships than in previous years. Going west along the north coast of the DR we had ships altering course to pass us long before they could see us visually.

It is great to be able to call a ship by name on the VHF and ask them whether they see you. I did this with a container ship off the coast of Ecuador and gave the sleepy watchkeepers a hell of shock when they realized they were going to run us over (at noon on a sunny day). In the past I have found that calling the ship at a particular location does not get you an answer

As to who has it. All larger vessels must - large fishing boats seem to have theirs off when fishing and the US Navy does not broadcast. Probably half of long-distance cruisers have it and that number is growing rapidly.


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

10 Years ago AIS was a unknown concept to the cruising sailor. So i think to say that it is now an essential is probably not correct. 

It is however in the same way as GPS, a convenience that does lead to increased safety, without ever of course guaranteeing it. 

COLREGS and the basics of collision avoidance though hasn't changed ...... You keep watch at all times by all and any means. To be complacent or lax about this however I believe would be bad seamanship.

If I can put it another way there are plenty of folk with GPS/AIS/RADAR who have hit other ships and ran aground on known charted reefs. There are also plenty of folk who still use a sextant and second hand charts and have been around this big round thing several times over.

We ourselves are simple folk without Radar or AIS. I don't single hand offshore and we always stand proper old school watches, plotting our DR every hour despite having onboard a chart-plotter and 2 other GPS receivers. I would like AIS but it simply doesn't fit within the budget at the moment, it probably will be installed onboard in the next 18 months and when it does it will act as an additional aid to our current watch-keeping habits and not as a replacement for them.

As for the Bumfuzzles, I guess each man decides what is appropriate for his family. I wouldn't let a toddler eat Mc Donald's, drink coke and watch TV 6 hours a day either but plenty of parents do. 

I am heading offshore with my wife and 6 month old baby shortly. Our cruise plan is somewhat more conservative than the Bumfuzzles and we are arguably more equipped and prepared. Some would consider us overly cautious, others perhaps would still consider us to be ill prepared.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

chall03 said:


> We ourselves are simple folk without Radar or AIS. I don't single hand offshore and we always stand proper old school watches, plotting our DR every hour despite having onboard a chart-plotter and 2 other GPS receivers. I would like AIS but it simply doesn't fit within the budget at the moment, it probably will be installed onboard in the next 18 months and when it does it will act as an additional aid to our current watch-keeping habits and not as a replacement for them.


Depends a lot on where you're sailing, of course - but for the sort of sailing many of us here appear to do, AIS has become a _very_ nice thing to have&#8230; For me, perhaps its greatest value is as an open-ocean proximity alarm, far more reliable and less power-hungry than a radar guard zone alarm, IMHO&#8230;

AIS is rapidly becoming quite affordable, I'd suggest you try to find a spot in your budget if possible&#8230; I think you'll be glad you did&#8230;

One of the most affordable and easiest to install is the series of AIS-enabled VHFs from Standard Horizon&#8230; For the price of a good quality full-featured VHF, not much more than $300, you get AIS as well, without the need to run a coax splitter or separate antenna - just tie the VHF into your GPS data, and you're good to go&#8230; Sure, the display is rather tiny, but I've still had little difficulty dealing with numerous targets&#8230;

Very slick little unit, Standard makes a nice radio and is a good company to deal with&#8230; I expect Icom and others to follow suit with their own versions of a combo VHF/AIS eventually, but Standard Horizon has had their own out for quite some time now, I'm surprised others aren't producing theirs as yet&#8230;

Welcome to StandardHorizon.com


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

JonEisberg said:


> "stirring the pot" can often generate a lively and informed debate


With all due respect (and in your case Jon, that respect is substantial) part of the problem is that debate may be lively but is often not informed. While I may not be as reactionary as Pat there is nothing like a statement that starts with "everyone knows" to make me dig in my heels. Quite often someone is quoting without attribution Chapman's or the Pardeys or some other text out of context and without really understanding either the question or the guidance. It makes me very grumpy.

In those circumstances the question "why?" is often the finest filter to sort wheat from chafe. If someone can't give a good answer to that question their contribution may not be correct or even relevant.



Chris12345 said:


> AIS is BS in most places of the world outside the big container ports/lines. What percentage of boats do you think has AIS?





Chris12345 said:


> Think 30+ knot coastal ferries, one- to five-container local freight, and at least half the shipping fleet, in most counties.


A lot depends on where you are in the world. Some countries are putting AIS transponders on smaller craft, including fishing boats, as a government service. While I doubt that the US will go down that path the pressure is on within the industry to expand the regulatory requirement for AIS transponders, including many of the vessels you cite: ferries, smaller cargo ships, and such.

I have observed over the last five or six years that getting a ship--particularly with limited English speakers among the watchstanders--to respond to anything other than a call by name is becoming increasingly difficult. Where my experience is greatest (US East Coast from Cape Cod to Florida, Bermuda, the Bahamas, and Virgin Islands) the watchstanders are so used to seeing the names on the screen and calling each other that calls by description and location just aren't penetrating.

One doesn't need a transponder to "play in the game" but a receiver is becoming pretty darn important. Called by name, just about every ship will respond - even if it means waking up the English speaker. *grin* In addition, AIS gives you the IMO number for the ship so if you have a sat phone aboard you can call them directly. If you have an SSB, ShipCom (the old AT&T High Seas) will call them for you and patch them through. If the watchstander on the bridge doesn't answer the Inmarsat phone, it WILL ring through to the Captain's cabin who will not be amused.

AIS has moved from cool plaything to important safety and communications tool. I'm even building a portable system to carry on deliveries with OpenCPN charts, an AIS receiver, and a GPS in a small (really small actually) Pelican case simply because offshore there are so many benefits to having AIS contribute to situational awareness.

Technology is still no substitute for getting your head out of the boat and paying attention to what is going on around you. The technology is an important adjunct.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

JonEisberg said:


> And, in my opinion, what Pat did by going over the stern on a boat still making way at 2 knots offshore was a really, REALLY stupid thing to do&#8230;


Like I said above, I love these guys. I want to be these guys. I admire what they're doing.

But I also totally agree with you JonE. That was a really bad judgement call. And I think he probably knows (and accepts) this by now. At least I hope so.

That said, we all make a lot of these stupid moves. And most of the time we're lucky and get away with them. I've got a very, very long list myself.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

chall03 said:


> I am heading offshore with my wife and 6 month old baby shortly. Our cruise plan is somewhat more conservative than the Bumfuzzles and we are arguably more equipped and prepared. *Some would consider us overly cautious, others perhaps would still consider us to be ill prepared.*


You nailed it Chall. It's a pretty subjective thing...this "being prepared".


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

Chris12345 said:


> Going down a coast that has prepaid tow boat service at every harbor, as well as a West Marine plus 24 hour FedEx access to any parts supplier in the US, and in good weather conditions, IS what is called a trial run.
> And it worked very well apparently, he made it there in what, one third of the time you had projected, in spite of engine troubles?
> Although he was crazy enough to sail at night, that reckless kid.
> (Haha, got you there, did he??)
> ...


Chris,

IIRC, he said he had no radio and that he was glad he didn't waste
his money on AIS. In the four times he had to be towed he made
no mention of calling on the radio, but did say he hailed other boats
visually. He was lucky there were other boats around.

Dabnis


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

Chris,

Forgot this, in his posts before they left I believe he said they would
stop along the way with the wife and baby on board. My time estimate was for the whole 1,600 mile trip, SF to PV based on stopping as he mentioned. He didn't run all night until the wife and baby were off the boat.

Dabnis


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> Like I said above, I love these guys. I want to be these guys. I admire what they're doing.
> 
> But I also totally agree with you JonE. That was a really bad judgement call. And I think he probably knows (and accepts) this by now. At least I hope so.


One would certainly hope so, but if we are to take some of their claims literally, who knows? For a circumnavigator who has never bothered to learn how to tie a bowline, or understand what telltales are for, why should we assume he would take the trouble to learn how to heave-to for the next time he might have reason to park the boat offshore?

Again, I applaud their "Just Do It" approach in many respects, it reminds me of myself at a younger age&#8230; (grin) But, I disagree with the argument that some appear to be making, that they are somehow "proof" of the axiom what they don't know can't hurt them&#8230;

I'm making the assumption that the reason Pat didn't heave-to before going in the water was simply because the thought never _occurred_ to him. He's likely never done it before, it's a tactic not often applied on multihulls, after all&#8230; Someone else in this thread remarked that heaving-to was one of the first things they were taught to do when learning to sail, and for very good reason&#8230; But it's really striking how such an elemental tactic has fallen out of favor among modern sailors, and how rarely it is employed&#8230; I'm sorry, but someone who has already sailed around the world should KNOW by now that it would have been the proper thing to do before even thinking about going in the water, while singlehanding, offshore&#8230;

I remain convinced that the loss of life and the wreck of RULE 62 very likely never would have occurred if the skipper had only understood and appreciated the effectiveness of heaving-to&#8230; If he had only done it ONCE in anger before setting off in the 1500, he would have KNOWN that when the time came, it could be a game-changer in terms of quelling the fear or discomfort of his crew&#8230; As clear a case as you'll ever see of inexperience and _not knowing what you do not know_ leading to a disaster at sea, IMHO&#8230;


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

JonEisberg said:


> But, I disagree with the argument that some appear to be making, that they are somehow "proof" of the axiom what they don't know can't hurt them&#8230;


No argument here on your broader points. But I will make this adjustment to the above - for better or for worse...



> "What they don't know hasn't yet hurt them."


What does that say about anything? Well, they have inarguably sailed many, many thousands of miles. And they're about to do it again. And they're remarkably unscathed.

Maybe it says more about the true level of danger in the sport/past-time of sailing as it does about the sailor. I don't know. But it's an interesting question.

At the end of the day, for me, I'm into Vigor's "Black Box Theory". Seems like a very good model to sail by:

The Black Box Theory: Just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water . . . Why is it that some sailors go quietly about their business, consistently making quick, safe, and satisfying passages, while others lurch erratically from port to p


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## HDChopper (Oct 17, 2010)

Smak that " black box theory " sounds suspiciously like common sense .


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> Well, they have inarguably sailed many, many thousands of miles. And they're about to do it again. And they're remarkably unscathed.


True, that&#8230; But, they (again, if they are to be taken literally) remain remarkably _unlearned_, as well&#8230; I hate to keep raising the bowline example, but it really does require a substantial degree of bull-headedness or determined ignorance to spend a couple of years sailing around the world, and remain uninterested in learning to tie perhaps the single most useful knot for a sailor, no?

Just a hunch, but I would bet that Pat actually _does_ know how to tie a bowline, and probably by now has figured out what their telltales are for, as well&#8230; However, such learning leading to increased competence runs counter to their schtick of Bumfuzzlement that sold so well to their audience during the first time around, and I suspect they in reality have become a bit more accomplished by now than they might be leading their readers to believe&#8230;



smackdaddy said:


> At the end of the day, for me, I'm into Vigor's "Black Box Theory". Seems like a very good model to sail by:
> 
> The Black Box Theory: Just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water . . . Why is it that some sailors go quietly about their business, consistently making quick, safe, and satisfying passages, while others lurch erratically from port to p


Others have stated it a bit more concisely, but Vigor's theory IMHO gets at the heart of the truest definition of seamanship&#8230;. There really is an almost _moral_ component to good seamanship - like ethical choices we are all called upon to make in our lives, doing the Right Thing on a small boat at sea so often involves making the _Harder_, more difficult choice&#8230; Offshore, these choices most often are forced upon us when we are least inclined to go the extra mile, whether due to fear, exhaustion, or just plain lassitude&#8230; Like Vigor, I too place little value in Luck, but I definitely firmly believe that such efforts to do the sorts of things, take the sort of precautions that he describes, will ALWAYS be rewarded in the long run&#8230;

Even if the immediate "reward" turns out to be limited to the satisfaction that comes simply from learning, and making the effort to do a thing well&#8230;


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

smackdaddy said:


> No argument here on your broader points. But I will make this adjustment to the above - for better or for worse...
> 
> What does that say about anything? Well, they have inarguably sailed many, many thousands of miles. And they're about to do it again. And they're remarkably unscathed.
> 
> ...


Cripes , I'm not sure about including Moitessier. He did pretty well with the dolphins off the bottom of NewZealand (do you know that story Smack ?) but after that he managed to wreck two of his boats.

I confess I do like a measure of pride in ones ship. To that end I find the Fuzzles lack of such things as a decent bowline somewhat disturbing and I'm with John E when he shudders at the thought of jumping overboard without at least a tether let alone heaving to. That said the thing that most disturbs me about the Fuzzles is their diet. FFS, no sane person could survive on the mulch that they eat. Effing 'orrible, I'd rather be a bloody vegan.


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## SailingWonder (Jul 6, 2011)

*Google*

A quick google search of the Bumfuzzle Blog:

september 27 2006 : en route 
After eight hours of heaving-to the other day the wind shifted rather dramatically in the right direction and even settled down under twenty knots. We got going and sailed for about an hour before the ugly weather surrounded us again.

25-July-2010 our life. daily.
 In an effort to head off criticism from the armchair sailing community we got Ouest started on her bowline knot lessons. She preferred eating the rope, but we just kept yelling at her, "YOU HAVE TO BE ABLE TO DO THIS WITH ONE HAND TIED BEHIND YOUR BACK!" Look at that smirk on her face. I don't think she is taking this seriously at all.

03-Jan-2011 bumfuzzle. 
We bought a handheld VHF. Ali and I tend not to use the VHF much and never really monitor it, so a handheld is really about all we need. The boat does have an old VHF onboard*with an antenna up the mast. It may or may not work. Don't really know*at this point. If it does, great. If not, we're good with just the handheld.

01-June-2011 our life. daily. santa cruz.
...It was a pretty ugly spot to be in. We quickly dropped the anchor, which grabbed and bought us a little time. I went below to try and bleed the fuel line again, and Ali got on the VHF to alert the Harbor Police that we were just outside swinging at anchor in the swimming area.

Geez guys at least read the blog that you are discussing or don't discuss it at all.

Rock on Bums.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Here's the infamous bowline entry that has everyone in a tizzy I think:



> november 26 2004 : gulf harbor marina
> It's been a busy week on the boat. The big project this week was removing the mast. Ali and I removed the sails and folded them up so we could store them inside. We actually had the rigger help us with the jib, since neither of us had any idea how to remove it. In fact, we actually hadn't even realized that the jib pole was one of the main things that hold up the mast. The rigger pointed out to us that a plastic cap that holds a pin in place at the bottom of the jib roller was missing. Then went on to show us how easily the pin could slide out now that the jib was loosened. Oh well, that seems to be the riggers job, to try and scare the hell out of you by explaining that every piece of your boat is undersized, faulty, or just not strong enough.
> 
> So we got all the sails off, we removed the boom, and unhooked all the wiring. Then the riggers showed up with a little crane truck. Within a half an hour we had removed the mast. When the rigger was up the mast securing it to the crane he threw a line down to me on deck and said to tie a bowline knot around the jib pole. Of course, I only know about 3 knots, and don't know the names of any of them. So I tied one of those and he looks at me and asks, "Is that a bowline?" I just shrugged my shoulders. His assistant was grinning, and once the rigger had turned away, he just said, "That's not a bowline." Oh well, I guess that's just one more thing you don't have to know in order to sail 10,000 miles.


I didn't know how to tie a proper bowline until this year (after 3 years of sailing). And I was then surprised to learn that the knot I've been using for sport climbing for 8 years is a modified bowline! Go figure.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

SailingWonder said:


> A quick google search of the Bumfuzzle Blog:
> 
> september 27 2006 : en route
> After eight hours of heaving-to the other day the wind shifted rather dramatically in the right direction and even settled down under twenty knots. We got going and sailed for about an hour before the ugly weather surrounded us again.
> ...


Well, I stand corrected, thanks for that&#8230; My information on the bowline thing is obviously dated, based upon an article they published in LATS & ATTS during their circumnavigation, my bad&#8230;

Looks like Pat's previous experience with heaving-to was quite awhile ago, perhaps even HE had forgotten about it&#8230; (grin)



SailingWonder said:


> Geez guys at least read the blog that you are discussing or don't discuss it at all.
> 
> Rock on Bums.


My bad once again, but I've got to confess, I'm just that much into reading about and wading through reams of pics someone else's 2 year old&#8230; (grin)

Once they get out there again, perhaps that will change&#8230;


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## BentSailor (Nov 10, 2010)

tdw said:


> Effing 'orrible, I'd rather be a bloody vegan.


Damn! That must be some terrible diet on to push a man to those extremes!


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

How anyone who uses such a dopey expression as "rock on" can be critical of others I am not sure BUT .. I'll accept a mea culpa on the bowline. Yep, I did take John E's word on that though your quote does not actually say that he knows how to tie one, only that he was trying to convince the rug rat to learn in order to placate us poor sad bastards asleep in our rocking chairs.

As for reading the whole trucking thing, you have got to be kidding. I'd gnaw my leg off before I was half way through. For interest's sake I did read the Australian section and that was enough thank you very much. Reality is that while I do admire their get up and go and much of their attitude to life in general, the blog itself is a pretty boing read overall. You people need to get off your backsides , stop reading and go for a sail. 

Yeah yeah yeah, yada yada yada, armchair sailors, blear blear blear, get off your arse and do it yourself. Heard it all before. Not interested in hearing it again from a member of the fan club. You lot are somewhat like the twassocks who cheered on that strange drifting around the world in a thousand days mars oddyssey chappie.

whopps forgot to add. .... a multitude of


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

BentSailor said:


> Damn! That must be some terrible diet on to push a man to those extremes!


Pizza Hit and FatDonalds from what I remember. Indeed they actually reckoned that Pizza Hit pizzas in Sydney were better than the ones in the USA. How bad does that make American PHs ? Good Lord. .

But to be fair, and we do want to be fair don't we ? Don't we ? They did enjoy the meat pies from Harry's Cafe de Wheels.

ps - Nah, sod fairness ... lets just flay the sucker to within an inch of his life ... wahoo ..


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## BentSailor (Nov 10, 2010)

tdw said:


> Pizza Hit and FatDonalds from what I remember. Indeed they actually reckoned that Pizza Hit pizzas in Sydney were better than the ones in the USA. How bad does that make American PHs ? Good Lord.


Given the food from that chain-store of pizza-like substitute, I *REALLY* worry about the quality of the US franchise if we're good in comparison. When it comes to pizza, I've not found a single _franchise_ that I would say makes them even "adequate". Pizza, like good burgers, needs a less clinical, fast-as-we-can-make-it approach to cooking.

More on subject, I get the feeling the Bumfuzzles are (as Jon suggests) playing up the whole _"We're clueless and look what we can do!"_ angle. If there is one thing I've found amongst the sailing sites, blogs, forums, etc I've visited - it's that they like anti-authoritarian types. Some of them are very anti-police, others anti-government, and the Bumfuzzles come across as _"anti old salt"_. Even when learning the most basic of knots (one I got taught before even getting to hold the jib sheets), they slip in a dig at those that were critical of them for not knowing it prior. People who, in my mind, had it right for raising an eyebrow at it.

I can understand the appeal (even if it isn't my schitck). Young adventurous family defying the calls of older, more experienced sailors to do the boring stuff that is standard preparation for the "previous generation" of cruisers. Doing it their way and succeeding at it, regardless of the advice they ignored. And so on.


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

All this talk of Pizza is making me hungry. Can't remember the last time I ate Pizza from any kind of chain store though.......I did have a hot dog from Harrys around Christmas after a rather festive night out 



smackdaddy said:


> You nailed it Chall. It's a pretty subjective thing...this "being prepared".


I disagree Smack.

This 'being prepared' is anything but subjective. People's opinions may be subjective but the sea is very much an objective judge and as I have said before it holds the only opinion that really counts.

We are only going to be coastal cruising for the moment, largely day hops with some overnighters. So far I have....

-Replaced every skin fitting/ball valve on the boat.
-Replaced the standing rigging.
-Replaced the running rigging.
-Replaced the Mainsail. The new sail has three reefs. 
-Replaced the lifelines.
-Replaced the anchor and rode. ( For the sake of harmony I am not going to reveal the make of our new anchor)
-Replaced/added additional support to the spreaders.
-Replaced the Furler.
-Replaced the VHF antenna, and bought a Emergency Antenna.
-Replaced/Rewired all our Nav Lights.
-Replaced the battery bank. 
-Bought another backup GPS. I am attempting to learn Celstial Navigation for umm the 3 time 
-Given the engine a major service even though it is a year old and only has 60 hours on it. Belt/Impeller/filters Etc.
-Spent maybe another 2-3k on PFD's, Jacklines and additional safety gear.

The list for when we do start crossing oceans is about 5 times that size.

Now that is me. I guess it comes down to doing what you can with what you have, and doing your best to tip the odds in your favour. I don't know if you can ever be completely prepared, but I couldn't head out without knowing I had down everything within my means and ability to make the boat as safe as I could. The other flip side of being prepared is of course the ability to think on your feet and manage a crisis out there.......I think the Bumfuzzles do seem to have that fairly down pat.

Jon.....on AIS I am certainly a convert....it will literally only be a matter of time and money. It would be of great benefit, but the unit you mentioned is a receiver only I believe? I figure if I am going to do it I would prefer to go the full mile and install a transceiver. Knowing the big guys can see you as well is of great comfort. The success rate of sailors getting hold of ships on VHF down here is fairly low.....


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

chall03 said:


> I disagree Smack.
> 
> This 'being prepared' is anything but subjective. People's opinions may be subjective but the sea is very much an objective judge and as I have said before it holds the only opinion that really counts.
> 
> Now that is me. I guess it comes down to doing what you can with what you have, and doing your best to tip the odds in your favour. I don't know if you can ever be completely prepared, but I couldn't head out without knowing I had down everything within my means and ability to make the boat as safe as I could. The other flip side of being prepared is of course the ability to think on your feet and manage a crisis out there.......I think the Bumfuzzles do seem to have that fairly down pat.


When I say subjective, I just mean in terms of being prepared "enough" to go. When it comes to being prepared enough, what is that standard? What is that list?

I'll never defend the Fuzzles from the standpoint of preparedness. They weren't "prepared" by any means in terms of seamanship. On the other hand, they've pulled off an amazing feat in my opinion - and did it pretty successfully. And they're still going.

Finally, I tend to agree with you, based on what I've read, that it was their ability to think on their feet, keep their wits about them, and manage crises (common sense?) - as well as sailing pretty conservatively - that compensated for their lack of seamanship. And I also agree with the above posters that access to money can cover a multitude of "sins" on a boat. They have it and were able to make use of it. And it served them very well.

Bottom line is that, no matter how "ugly" they've done it, they've got my respect, and envy, for accomplishing it. On the other hand, for me, I'd rather put some points into my black box like you're doing until I personally feel I'm prepared just enough to risk it.

PS - An example of this is their Panama-to-Galapagos attempt. They get hit by big conditions on their nose, get sucked into the Humboldt, and decide that Columbia sounds like an okay diversion for a while instead of fighting it. No schedule. No foul.


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

SailingWonder said:


> A quick google search of the Bumfuzzle Blog:
> 
> september 27 2006 : en route
> After eight hours of heaving-to the other day the wind shifted rather dramatically in the right direction and even settled down under twenty knots. We got going and sailed for about an hour before the ugly weather surrounded us again.
> ...


Missed the hand held quote, not much range but better than nothing.

My apologies, Dabnis


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

chall03 said:


> I disagree Smack.
> 
> This 'being prepared' is anything but subjective. People's opinions may be subjective but the sea is very much an objective judge and as I have said before it holds the only opinion that really counts.
> 
> ...


It can certainly be a daunting task, to make a boat really ready to go places, sounds like you're doing it right&#8230;

One of my favorite resources is Bill Seifert's book, highly recommended:

Amazon.com: Offshore Sailing: 200 Essential Passagemaking Tips (9780071374248): William Seifert, Daniel Spurr: Books

I had the pleasure of meeting Bill once, he'd been enlisted by a client of mine to help prep his boat for the Newport-Bermuda Race.. That guy has probably forgotten more about boats and sailing than I could ever hope to learn in a lifetime&#8230; Whenever I start to wonder if perhaps my attitude towards what the Bums have ostensibly "proven" is a bit too harsh, I think of what a guy like Seifert would likely have to say about that, and am reminded I'm probably being pretty charitable towards them, in comparison&#8230; (grin)



chall03 said:


> Jon.....on AIS I am certainly a convert....it will literally only be a matter of time and money. It would be of great benefit, but the unit you mentioned is a receiver only I believe? I figure if I am going to do it I would prefer to go the full mile and install a transceiver. Knowing the big guys can see you as well is of great comfort. The success rate of sailors getting hold of ships on VHF down here is fairly low.....


Yes, you're right, it's a RX only unit&#8230; Personally, I'm not too worried about not having a TX capability myself. Have you checked into the amperage draw of some of those transmitters yet? It can be pretty significant, a friend of mine only uses his when under power, or in fairly rare circumstances under sail, he seems to think the draw is enough to be concerned about on a modestly-sized yacht&#8230;


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

I guess we've got a bit of thread drift here but I'm in agreement that AIS is a great boon but that TX capability while nice to have is not 'necessary'. (inverted commas cos lets face it AIS itself is not really necessary, just a nice thing to have. 

We've got a Standard Horizon CP300 and it really is a nice little unit. If I had to junk either radar or ais then radar would be the one to go.


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

One of the reasons I started this thread was to hopefully make
those with little or no experience aware of the importance
of being properly prepared so that someone else doesn't have to
"save their bacon", possibly putting themselves at risk in the process.

Dabnis


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

dabnis said:


> One of the reasons I started this thread was to hopefully make
> those with little or no experience aware of the importance
> of being properly prepared so that someone else doesn't have to
> "save their bacon", possibly putting themselves at risk in the process.
> ...


(I posted a response to this before the database went down. So I'll repost.)

Dab - I think the reason this whole thing will never die is that the example of the Fuzzles is precisely counter to what you're saying regarding preparedness/rescue/risk.

They were wildly inexperienced, not at all prepared in terms of seamanship, and took big risks...yet they never called in SAR to save their bacon (that I know of) while sailing around the entire freakin' planet. They did okay...for whatever reason.

And that's very interesting.


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## svHyLyte (Nov 13, 2008)

dabnis said:


> One of the reasons I started this thread was to hopefully make
> those with little or no experience aware of the importance
> of being properly prepared so that someone else doesn't have to
> "save their bacon", possibly putting themselves at risk in the process.
> ...


If that was your objective, you seem to have picked rather a poor example for your intended object lesson considering that Pat'n Ali have completed a circumnavigation without incident--traversed Pirate Alley, stopped in all the places they shouldn't have in the Red Sea--sold their first boat, done a grand tour of North and Central America in an aging Porsche and then VW Micro-bus then bought and rehab'd a second yacht and are again merrily on their way all without ever having had to have anyone else "save their bacon" (and in their case it would be "save their Pizza" anyway, no?).

As a young man I learned that it is wise to tend to one's own lines before I criticized another's rigging, no?


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

SV,

You may be right, they only needed tow service 4 times on the
last trip. They experienced the fuel problem before they left when
testing the auto pilot but didn't resolve it. Also, a close inspection of the shaft coupling ahead of time may have shown the rubber coupling
deteriorating? who knows?

Dabnis


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

All of this discussion has been interesting with different viewpoints.
However, it probably won't change anyone's mind about anything,
anyway. It's adult beverage time so time for me to move on.

Dabnis


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

I do appreciate the greater discussion that has come out of this thread Dabnis. 
I have tried to avoid any direct criticism of the Bumfuzzles, as if they are just happily going along and doing things in there own merry little style then I don't won't to count myself amongst their naysayers. Likewise if they are out there courting the publicity and attention by trying to prove a point then I don't wish to give them any more of the spotlight.

As smack said what is enough preparation??? 

I personally never really want to find out. Happy to talk about it on forums, but IRL I want to be on the overdo, over worry and assume Murphy is along on every passage side of the preparation debate.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Here's a quote from their blog that really struck a chord with me (after their Pacific crossing):



> I think a lot of cruisers won't ever make a crossing like this because of fear. Fear of being at sea for that long. Probably fear of bad weather and rough seas. But based on our experience, there is no reason not to make the trip across other than boredom.
> 
> With all that said though, there is still a very real sense of accomplishment. A sense that we have just completed something that many will dream about, but only a few will actually set out and do. However even that feeling is subdued. Maybe it's because this wasn't something we dreamed about for years and years like most people, it's just something that we decided to do one day not too long ago. And maybe that is why we weren't afraid to do it. We just don't comprehend all the danger that's involved in doing something like this. And maybe, just maybe, that's a good thing.


Though I don't think anyone here could ever advocate this approach as "sound advice" on a sailing forum that is generally supposed to have the "higher calling of good seamanship" at its core due to its educational nature...I tend to think he's right.

And this is exactly why these people are so interesting. It strikes me as something akin to a toddler innocently walking through an area fraught with dangers. They are oblivious and you are holding your breath in panic as you watch. Then they merrily clear the area and are fine. What is that? What's at work there? Innocence? Ignorance? God?

Something else I've noticed in their stories is how often they have to fix stuff (the engines, broken halyards/rigging, plumbing, electrical, etc.). They seem to always get it fixed. And, obviously, they have the ability to navigate and get where they want to go. And they do watches, keep logs, use and understand charts, etc. So, this apparent level of actual seamanship belies the "innocent toddler" approach, and shows that there is much more knowledge and common sense at play than some want to give credit for. And maybe even more than they want to claim in order to keep that edge.

Like I said, I dig the Fuzzles. They are definitely very interesting people out doing very interesting things.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

I don't think the bumfuzzles really have any idea how enchanted their life has been. They definitely have the big, industrial, Costco-size barrel of luck.

Having said that, I will also say that they have often made their own luck, by being able to make decisions quickly, instead of dithering, and either missing opportunities or allowing a problem to grow. THAT is where their real strength lies.


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## JoeDiver (Feb 2, 2011)

Through all the different opinions and viewpoints....all I can say is...


They're out there doing it and I'm sitting here in my living room typing on a computer.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

bljones said:


> I don't think the bumfuzzles really have any idea how enchanted their life has been. They definitely have the big, industrial, Costco-size barrel of luck.
> 
> Having said that, I will also say that they have often made their own luck, by being able to make decisions quickly, instead of dithering, and either missing opportunities or allowing a problem to grow. THAT is where their real strength lies.


Hmm I think they live their lives as the lyrics to 'Love over gold' say.

But they do pay in to their BLACK BOX of luck as well as they make withdrawals.

Could it all have gone horribly wrong at some point? sure but they don't take really stupid risks.


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## my900ss (Sep 25, 2010)

I look at this guys web site and I see:

1. Great photography

2. Clean boat

3. Nice family

4. New rigging on the boat

I read the stories and I gleen:

1. He is fairly calm under pressure

2. He can sail better than most people who own sail boats

3. Has access to enough money to fuel, fix and float where he chooses to go in the boat.

I do not see the problem? He seems to have it all under control?


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## lgherb (Jul 2, 2006)

smackdaddy said:


> Personally - I love these guys. The stuff they have seen and done???? Are you kidding me? Absolutely freakin' brilliant!
> 
> Whether they did it "right" or "wrong"...I could give a damn. They did it - and are still doing it. I would love to be in their flip-flops.
> 
> Go fuzzles!


I have to agree with this.

These people are smart and their instincts (right down to their finances) are spot on.

Love his car, love his VW bus, love his boat, and love his devotion to his wife and family.

I've only more or less read their blog from the point they purchased their new boat. They spent a lot of time getting their basic systems in order on a boat that was neglected for 5+ years.

More power to them.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> And, obviously, they have the ability to navigate and get where they want to go.


In other words, they know how to push buttons, right? That's pretty much all you need to be able to do nowadays to "navigate", after all&#8230;

To the best of my knowledge, they went around the first time without any paper charts aboard&#8230; What do you suppose might have happened to "their ability to navigate" if the electrons one day decided to stop flowing aboard BUMFUZZLE , say, midway through the Tuomotus?

Nah, that could never happen, laptops never fail, electrons NEVER stop flowing aboard a small boat at sea, right? (grin)



smackdaddy said:


> Something else I've noticed in their stories is how often they have to fix stuff (the engines, broken halyards/rigging, plumbing, electrical, etc.). They seem to always get it fixed.


Probably just me, but I remain somewhat unimpressed by their apparent need to, and knack of, constantly "fixing stuff " just in the nick of time&#8230;

In my experience, virtually every calamity at sea is almost always the result of a cascading series of failure, rather than one sudden, gigantic catastrophe&#8230; Sailing with someone, or on a boat that seems prone to such a steady stream of problems to be dealt with, well&#8230; it doesn't inspire confidence that things will "always" work out in the end, at least for me&#8230; (grin)



TQA said:


> Could it all have gone horribly wrong at some point? sure but they don't take really stupid risks.


I liken taking dumb risks to running aground - you haven't really done much or gone anywhere with a boat if you haven't done so from time to time&#8230; (grin)

But they're no more exempt than the rest of us, I would certainly classify their transiting the Devil's Backbone on N. Eleuthera during a rage as being pretty stupid, especially given their relative lack of experience at the time&#8230;

I'd also rate sailing around the world without any paper charts aboard as a bit dumb, but I realize such an opinion brands me as a dinosaur in an age in which paper is rapidly becoming hopelessly passe'&#8230;


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

smackdaddy said:


> Here's a quote from their blog that really struck a chord with me (after their Pacific crossing):





> Though I don't think anyone here could ever advocate this approach as "sound advice" on a sailing forum that is generally supposed to have the "higher calling of good seamanship" at its core due to its educational nature...I tend to think he's right.
> 
> And this is exactly why these people are so interesting. It strikes me as something akin to a toddler innocently walking through an area fraught with dangers. They are oblivious and you are holding your breath in panic as you watch. Then they merrily clear the area and are fine. What is that? What's at work there? Innocence? Ignorance? God?


Sorry Smack and yes I am in a dark corner this morning, tell that to the children, victims of land mines.



> Something else I've noticed in their stories is how often they have to fix stuff (the engines, broken halyards/rigging, plumbing, electrical, etc.). They seem to always get it fixed. And, obviously, they have the ability to navigate and get where they want to go. And they do watches, keep logs, use and understand charts, etc. So, this apparent level of actual seamanship belies the "innocent toddler" approach, and shows that there is much more knowledge and common sense at play than some want to give credit for. And maybe even more than they want to claim in order to keep that edge.


Said it before , here it is again, the idiot savant schtick works for them.



> Like I said, I dig the Fuzzles. They are definitely very interesting people out doing very interesting things.


Thats the crux of it all Smack. Some dig 'em, some are apalled, some just get indigestion. 

I find the attitude, not necessarily yours, that unless we come to praise the Fuzzles then we should ignore them. Why so ? Makes no sense to me. Think if you like of sporting endeavour. I don't much any more but i used to love watching motor racing. Never competed but did that deny me the right to criticise Nigel Mansell for being a complete twassock ? Course it didn't. The Fuzzles put themselves out there. Take the applause ? Take the heat as well.

That they and their fans think me nowt but an armchair sailor grieves me not one iota. Truck 'em I say. I may not have circumnavigated but the odds are I've put in more sea miles than most of the Fuzz Bras so just like the Fuzzles think nowt of me, I couldn't give a flying truck what the Fuzz Bras think of me. Their whining ain't gonna stop me discussing them any more than I'll stop discussing religion, politics or why I like









Cheers mate


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## BentSailor (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, they are a pretty bird


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

*TD* - I don't care if people criticize them. There's plenty to criticize I suppose. But, I definitely don't think they are a good poster-child for the "the sea will kill you in a heartbeat" crowd.

I'm just saying there is something very interesting and even compelling in the fact that they've done what they've done, for so long, with so little knowledge and experience (at least in the beginning). It makes you wonder. And it makes people like me read, trying to figure it out. How did they "get away with it"? Where is that line of preparedness that I'm personally willing to cross and just risk it and learn as I go?

At the end of the day, I very much admire their accomplishment. But I'm not going to adopt all their methods by any means.

Oh, and those are some Great Tits my good man.










*JonE* - Look, I have huge respect for you dude. Seriously. I've seen your pics of some pretty incredible places you've anchored and some pretty intense sailing. And I've read your very educated and great posts here and elsewhere. But you have to admit (even if it's with a painful grin) that technology has changed things dramatically. Are paper charts becoming the backstaff/octant/astrolabe of today? Maybe.

The answer to your question about pushing buttons is, for better or worse, "yes". Pretty much anyone can successfully "navigate" from point A to B with GPS, a chartplotter, radar, AIS, etc. These technologies have made what was once a huge, mysterious undertaking frighteningly simple.

Now, as to the "what-ifs" - that's just what they are. And they never seem to bite the Fuzzles - for some very interesting reason.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> *JonE* But you have to admit (even if it's with a painful grin) that technology has changed things dramatically. Are paper charts becoming the backstaff/octant/astrolabe of today? Maybe.


You may be right, though I'm afraid many seem to forget that technology still changes nothing beyond the perimeter of your own deck, or the depth of your keel... I can't imagine sailing anywhere without paper charts, but obviously there's a new breed out there now who feel differently&#8230;



smackdaddy said:


> The answer to your question about pushing buttons is, for better or worse, "yes". Pretty much anyone can successfully "navigate" from point A to B with GPS, a chartplotter, radar, AIS, etc. These technologies have made what was once a huge, mysterious undertaking - navigation - frighteningly simple.


Yup, "frighteningly" is the operative descriptive, there&#8230; (grin)

30 years ago, when you ventured into a place like the southern Bahamas, for example, it was rare to encounter another cruiser who appeared to be still somewhat clueless&#8230; Today, however, it's surprisingly commonplace&#8230; Even when Loran was coming into use on yachts, it was fairly useless much beyond Nassau, and finding your way down there required some pretty diligent navigation, and piloting skills&#8230; Now, of course, anyone can make their way down there, just make sure you don't transpose any of the Explorer Charts waypoints, even a caveman can do it&#8230;

Not necessarily a good trend, IMHO&#8230; The extent to which many of today's cruisers place faith in their plotters, and their belief in the infallibility of electronic navigation, I find it positively spooky&#8230; GPS has become the great Enabler, and while there are positives to that effect, there are significant downsides, as well&#8230;

Of course, holding such an opinion nowadays brands me not only as a curmudgeonly dinosaur, but as a dreaded _Elitist_, as well&#8230; (grin)



smackdaddy said:


> Now, as to the "what-ifs" - that's just what they are. And they never seem to bite the Fuzzles - for some very interesting reason.


I think your suggestion above - that perhaps God himself is watching over the Bums - may indeed have some merit&#8230;

Seriously, can there be any other explanation for the claim that during the course of a multi-year Milk Run circumnavigation of the world, they only encountered a total of THREE squalls??? (grin)


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Aaaaaa - you're no dino...or dreaded elitist. And really, you're right. 

To be honest, I'd rather sail with you and actually learn something. On the other hand, I might rather sail with them and never have to learn anything! Heh-heh.


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## rallyman1122 (Jul 11, 2011)

my900ss said:


> I look at this guys web site and I see:
> 
> 1. Great photography
> 
> ...


Plus one to that. ^^


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## rallyman1122 (Jul 11, 2011)

After reading this entire thread, I can see why the Bum's hold the internet critics in such low regard. Pat and Ali are out living their lives. Most posting here are are too busy being negative to actually do anything. You are too busy spouting off about how the Bum's are doing everything wrong. Pitiful. You should get out and to something instead of telling everyone else how someone is doing something wrong.

And yes, I bought them pizza before and will buy them pizza again!


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

rallyman1122 said:


> After reading this entire thread, I can see why the Bum's hold the internet critics in such low regard. Pat and Ali are out living their lives. Most posting here are are too busy being negative to actually do anything. You are too busy spouting off about how the Bum's are doing everything wrong. Pitiful. You should get out and to something instead of telling everyone else how someone is doing something wrong.
> 
> And yes, I bought them pizza before and will buy them pizza again!


Well said, and very true.

All "forum sailing experts" views and posts ought to be viewed as "for entertainment purposes only" and certainly given no priority over the actions and opinions of those who actually _do_.


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## chris_gee (May 31, 2006)

Not really at all. Sailing down hill on the milk run or around the world doesn't mean you are a better sailor than many sailing coastal. Just means you sail longer mostly predictable benign passages. However those doing so tend to have liquid bowels when diverting to NZ for the hurricane season.
True the fuzzles got across the Tasman sea in a calm against the odds but few do.
I think there is a bit of a downer on them because they didn't know everything. Gee he gave fixing his fuel issue a good shot and a professional very likely in my experience would likely have not done better.
Sure carrying paper charts etc is prudent and probably more than just good seamanship but a basic backup.
You have perhaps picked up that he is quite bright and a stock trader able to pick up a few bucks when required. Most of us ain't -both anyway. No I don't want you to send me any money for a pizza - don't eat the stuff.
Yep they give it a go. They have had their share of luck. Is their seamanship etc perfect nope. Few could say that but that doesn't mean it is a good idea to just get out there and do it.
Ellie ain't bad. Ouest is great and wotsisname is a proud father. Ok all the best to all and thanks for sharing Ouest or rather your pleasure in the family and your adventures.


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

Point being that certain forum posters ought to be taken with a grain of salt, and perhaps even judged comparatively to those who have actually done it (rtw). 

Another way to put it - forums, like marinas, are never lacking in expert advice handed out by sailing nowhere blowhards.


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## imagine2frolic (Aug 7, 2008)

Jumping in the water with the boat doing 2 knots is not smart. We have all done not smart things, and survived. Not checking problems out with a child aboard is not good either. Just go is a bad attitude with kids involved, because they have no vote.

These negative thoughts I have, and a few others doesn't mean I can't appreciate what they have accomplished. If you are going to put yourself out there on the internet. You have to be open to praise as well as criticism. Seems they only want the praise. There is a term called constructive criticism, and I believe most what is typed here is just that. I can't believe any one wishes the fuzzles bad luck, or harm.

Just because I told my son what he was doing wrong. It didn't mean I didn't like him. It was because I worried about him. I have had my chart plotter go down in a storm with no visibility while approaching an anchorage. A little DR got me in safely. I still had paper sitting out too as a reference.

Nothing wrong with a wee bit of caution, and backups. The sea is an unforgiving place, and when she decides to bite you. She can take a bite big enough to hurt you. Those calling others who criticize blowhards. Well I think that goes to show where you're coming from. No single one of us is as smart as all of us. There's a lot to be learned from the fuzzles, and from those who criticize. The fuzzles are pretty smart. I only wish they would be smart enough to read the criticism with an open mind..........*i2f*


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

tdw said:


> The Fuzzles put themselves out there. Take the applause ? Take the heat as well.
> 
> Cheers mate


This about sums it up. Especially when the heat comes from experienced long-haul sailors like Womby, Jon and i2F.


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## jorgensk (Jan 27, 2006)

I've met Pat and Ali and corresponded with them several times. It's really too bad that many people who consider themselves sailors spend so much time on boards like this trashing the people who are really out sailing. Some people may not approve of their methods, but they don't need to. Pat & Ali are living the dream while the rest of us are sitting here reading about it. I hope they don't change a thing.


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

i2f said it well. My experience is many years of Northern California ocean waters in a number of different boats including a 36 foot commercial salmon troller. Tried to change a hobby into a business, bad idea. Anyway, I suggested a trial run to Pat & Ali which they didn't do. They didn't resolve the fuel problem they experienced when checking out the auto pilot in San Francisco: (May 3rd) bumfuzzle | may 2011 It wasn't until he replaced the original filter that the problem was resolved. He could have done that before they left and saved themselves a lot of grief.

Pat said the rubber part of the shaft coupler was gone. Possibly, a thorough inspection ahead of time may have revealed that?

In my emails to them they were always polite and thanked me for my interest. I have nothing against them personally and admire their adventuresome attitude. I do, however think they could do a better job in the preparation department. I guess if that makes me a "nowhere blowhard", so be it.

Dabnis


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

jorgensk said:


> I've met Pat and Ali and corresponded with them several times. It's really too bad that many people who consider themselves sailors spend so much time on boards like this trashing the people who are really out sailing. Some people may not approve of their methods, but they don't need to. Pat & Ali are living the dream while the rest of us are sitting here reading about it. * I hope they don't change a thing.*


Well, in that case, perhaps you'd also better hope that Pat never again has the occasion to dive on his prop in the open ocean, for starters... (grin)


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## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

I don't see a problem with anything the fuzzles do. There is more than one way to skin a cat. Like has been said before, not the way "I'd" do it. But there exploits prove to me that I could do the same thing... 

I'm trying not to be an armchair anything these days, it's tiresome reading and doesn't really provide anything to the conversation but negativity...


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## SailingWonder (Jul 6, 2011)

BubbleheadMd said:


> This about sums it up. Especially when the heat comes from experienced long-haul sailors like Womby, Jon and i2F.


Does that include when the heat is blatant lies told by the likes of Jon who claims to not even follow the Bumfuzzles? Getting heat and lies told about you by someone who isn't even interested in reading about you? Are they supposed to just take that?

When Jon is called out on those lies, instead of apologies Jon the village idiot (grin) just says, I'm bad, and makes a snarky comment followed by a (grin).

The idea that the Bums are supposed to just put up with that kind of nonsense is no different than saying that all actors, because they put themselves out there, are subject to accepting whatever lies the National Enquirer wants to write about them.

And notice that the Bums never even complain about any of the stuff said on these boards? All they do is make fun of the people saying this stuff. So really it seems to me that it is the posters on these forums that can't take the heat.

I'm a big fan of the Bums. I enjoy their humor and relaxed approach to life. The posters here have neither of these qualities. (grin)


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

SailingWonder said:


> And notice that the Bums never even complain about any of the stuff said on these boards? All they do is make fun of the people saying this stuff. So really it seems to me that it is the posters on these forums that can't take the heat.
> 
> I'm a big fan of the Bums. I enjoy their humor and relaxed approach to life. The posters here have neither of these qualities. (grin)


Oh c'mon dude. I'm in the process of reading their blog. Of course they complain about the people in the forums - and the other "yachties" they run across with "bad attitudes". So let's not get carried away here. I love the Fuzzles - but it's not like they're innocent lambs in all this.

The bottom line is that much of the technical criticism leveled at them (by JonE and anyone else) is right on the mark. And Pat typically admits that in one way or another. It's just he doesn't really care. So it's not like people are taking blind shots.

The balance, in my view, needs to be a recognition and acknowledgement of their accomplishments - which are freakin' huge - mixed with a critique of what they didn't know/do/observe/etc. so everyone can learn (including them). For example, it seems that he solicits advice from a lot of internet-based sailors when something breaks. Which is great. That's learning...from even those who "aren't out doing".

As I said above, one thing they've proven, much to the chagrin of those who promote "good seamanship", is that a hell of a lot of sailing can be done without it if you're willing (or ignorant enough) to take the risks. That's what drives everyone crazy.


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

LandLocked66c said:


> I don't see a problem with anything the fuzzles do. There is more than one way to skin a cat. Like has been said before, not the way "I'd" do it. But there exploits prove to me that I could do the same thing...
> 
> I'm trying not to be an armchair anything these days, it's tiresome reading and doesn't really provide anything to the conversation but negativity...


Land,

Agree, not the way I would do it either. As said before, probably all of this isn't going to change anyone's mind about anything, anyway. However, if someone with little or no experience can learn anything from this, fine.

Dabnis


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

SailingWonder said:


> Does that include when the heat is blatant lies told by the likes of Jon who claims to not even follow the Bumfuzzles? Getting heat and lies told about you by someone who isn't even interested in reading about you? Are they supposed to just take that?
> 
> When Jon is called out on those lies, instead of apologies Jon the village idiot (grin) just says, I'm bad, and makes a snarky comment followed by a (grin).


Well, you've certainly got one thing right&#8230; No doubt about it, I'm Sailnet's biggest village idiot for allowing myself to get sucked into another Bumfuzzles thread, yet again&#8230; (grin)

Now, about those "blatant lies" I'm supposed to be telling&#8230; Care to elaborate?


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## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

dabnis said:


> Land,
> 
> Agree, not the way I would do it either. As said before, probably all of this isn't going to change anyone's mind about anything, anyway. However, if someone with little or no experience can learn anything from this, fine.
> 
> Dabnis


If you've seen "Ice Blink", the Martins' started out with no children and then became a cruising family. Comparing them is laughable, but I will say the fuzzles are better prepared than the Martins' were when they first had there son aboard. They then began to look at things much differently. I think we can expect the same with the fuzzles as time goes on. But i've been wrong before...


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

LandLocked66c said:


> If you've seen "Ice Blink", the Martins' started out with no children and then became a cruising family. Comparing them is laughable, but I will say the fuzzles are better prepared than the Martins' were when they first had there son aboard. They then began to look at things much differently. I think we can expect the same with the fuzzles as time goes on. But i've been wrong before...


Right, brings back memories of raising two girls in a two bed room (small rooms) one bath house for the first eight years. I still don't sleep well. I can remember telling my wife: "this isn't going to change what we used to do".
I couldn't have been more wrong. I can't even imagine how they are going to do that on a boat? I wonder if they have any idea about how challenging that will be? I wish them the very best.

Dabnis


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

LandLocked66c said:


> If you've seen "Ice Blink", the Martins' started out with no children and then became a cruising family. Comparing them is laughable, *but I will say the fuzzles are better prepared than the Martins' were when they first had there son aboard. * They then began to look at things much differently. I think we can expect the same with the fuzzles as time goes on. But i've been wrong before...


I've always had the greatest admiration for the Martins, their approach to life, and what they've accomplished is incredible&#8230;

However, I'm a bit perplexed as to in what sense the Bums were "better prepared" for the arrival of their children aboard&#8230; Sure, their boat is considerably bigger and more commodious, and they obviously have a good deal more in the way of financial resources than Dave and Jaja did, but that seems about it&#8230; I do seem to recall that Jaja's first pregnancy took them a bit by surprise, and your point is well taken if that's what you meant...

Otherwise, both Dave and Jaja had been sailors since early childhood, and she was actually employed as a sailing instructor when they met in the Caribbean&#8230; Dave had lived aboard his boat since graduating from high school, and had become a very accomplished shipwright, and completely rebuilt DIRECTION for his circumnavigation&#8230; Sounds like they'd been preparing for much of their lives for the adventures that awaited them, to me&#8230;


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## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

JonEisberg said:


> I've always had the greatest admiration for the Martins, their approach to life, and what they've accomplished is incredible&#8230;
> 
> However, I'm a bit perplexed as to in what sense the Bums were "better prepared" for the arrival of their children aboard&#8230; Sure, their boat is considerably bigger and more commodious, and they obviously have a good deal more in the way of financial resources than Dave and Jaja did, but that seems about it&#8230; I do seem to recall that Jaja's first pregnancy took them a bit by surprise, and your point is well taken if that's what you meant...
> 
> Otherwise, both Dave and Jaja had been sailors since early childhood, and she was actually employed as a sailing instructor when they met in the Caribbean&#8230; Dave had lived aboard his boat since graduating from high school, and had become a very accomplished shipwright, and completely rebuilt DIRECTION for his circumnavigation&#8230; Sounds like they'd been preparing for much of their lives for the adventures that awaited them, to me&#8230;


The Martins' admitted to not having any safety equipment for a newborn/child on board after having there son. Hell, they lost him for a few minutes when he rolled into a box of food stores... 

Like I said, it's laughable to compare them - but in some aspects they are...


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

BubbleheadMd said:


> This about sums it up. Especially when the heat comes from experienced long-haul sailors like Womby, Jon and i2F.


Thanks for the kind words BH but mate I don't belong in that trio. JE and the Frolics have many more sea miles than this old fuzzball. Most of mine are simply coastal pottering.

On the topic at hand I find the defence of the fuzzles by the likes of SailingWonder to be passing strange. There has been nothing in this thread other than the musings of various SailNetters, some positive some negative but surely none of it has been destructive criticism.

Wonder, no one has to put up with arrant nonsense, hate mail and/or blatant lies. Everyone has the right to defend themselves just as (hopefully) everyone has the right to free expression. That the Fuzzles have successfully circumnavigated and given lots of folk much pleasure is quite commendable, yea team. Jumping off the back of a sailing boat mid ocean with no real safety net is still a pretty dumb thing to do.

JonE and me both got it wrong on one or two points and those errors were acknowledged. An honest error is not a blatant lie nor is it an outpouring of hate. What more do want ? We could organise a public flogging if it would make you feel your hero's good names have been restored. 

Forums, chat rooms and the like are nowt more than a bunch of people having a conversation, discussing something that is in the public domain. If the Fuzzles don't wish to be discussed then ffs, don't go public.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

chrisncate said:


> Point being that certain forum posters ought to be taken with a grain of salt, and perhaps even judged comparatively to those who have actually done it (rtw).
> 
> Another way to put it - forums, like marinas, are never lacking in expert advice handed out by sailing nowhere blowhards.


Says the pot with a dismantled boat on the hard, to those he thinks are kettles.
Uh, if you don't have a boat in the water, and you are a "I am-leaving-sailnet-because-you-are-all-pricks-but-I-still-check-in-and-seagull-post" blowhard, then are you not, by definition, a "sailing nowhere blowhard"?
How many sea miles do you have under your hull, chris? Want to compare logbooks with those you consider "blowhards"?

Yeah, didn't think so.


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

bljones said:


> Says the pot with a dismantled boat on the hard, to those he thinks are kettles.
> Uh, if you don't have a boat in the water, and you are a "I am-leaving-sailnet-because-you-are-all-pricks-but-I-still-check-in-and-seagull-post" blowhard, then are you not, by definition, a "sailing nowhere blowhard"?
> How many sea miles do you have under your hull, chris? Want to compare logbooks with those you consider "blowhards"?
> 
> Yeah, didn't think so.


Chris,

I remember you now. You were considering sailing the Intercoastal without an engine. How did it go? (I guess I can hijack my own thread?)

Dabnis


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

bljones said:


> Says the pot with a dismantled boat on the hard, to those he thinks are kettles.
> Uh, if you don't have a boat in the water, and you are a "I am-leaving-sailnet-because-you-are-all-pricks-but-I-still-check-in-and-seagull-post" blowhard, then are you not, by definition, a "sailing nowhere blowhard"?
> How many sea miles do you have under your hull, chris? Want to compare logbooks with those you consider "blowhards"?
> 
> Yeah, didn't think so.


Heh-heh. I love spats.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

... so do I ... most stylish ...


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Hey Pat! I just found the link on your blog to this very thread! Whazzup brotha?

Send me a PM or email and I'll shoot you guys a couple of BFS Boozies for your new ride and to celebrate your upcoming addition to the fam. There's no doubt you guys have done and are doing some Big Freakin' Sailing. And I, for one, admire the accomplishment...as I've said many times.

I've committed to reading your blog and am up to the WD40 trick and the tuna in Australia. Jeez I've got a long way to go.

(PS - My wife and I lived in Hermosillo, Sonora for a year a few years back. Let's just say it ain't PV. What was the original draw to Mexico for you guys?)


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

smackdaddy said:


> Hey Pat! I just found the link on your blog to this very thread! Whazzup brotha?
> 
> Send me a PM or email and I'll shoot you guys a couple of BFS Boozies for your new ride and to celebrate your upcoming addition to the fam. There's no doubt you guys have done and are doing some Big Freakin' Sailing. And I, for one, admire the accomplishment...as I've said many times.
> 
> ...


I'll take a spat over blatant sycophancy any day.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

bljones said:


> I'll take a spat over blatant sycophancy any day.


Do something impressive and I'll sycophant all over you too.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Promise?


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Sure. I have no shame. But it has to be sailing....not sausage pasta recipes or making 1600 watt solar panels out of a discarded calculator.


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## BentSailor (Nov 10, 2010)

Chris12345 said:


> Well, I believe you if you say you sailed a lot, why would you lie.
> 
> But if I would apply your approach to the bumfuzzle saga now, I would now say that all I see is a picture of a boat with you not in the picture, and I would throw in an underhand suggestion that you could have paid someone 70k for the picture and the publications you are mentioning, and not have done much of it yourself.
> 
> Do you see what I mean?


Oh come on now! Jon's explained this already and even **I** understand it. He was not implying that the Bumfuzzle's paid anyone to take them around the world. He was simply making an analogy to the fact that it is possible to do something without there necessarily being alot of skill involved or, more accurately, with the person having more skill than others.

I've been involved in putting together a variety of large, complex video-control & surveillance systems in my career. But having done so does not automatically mean I am better at it than others who have only done smaller ones. I just happened to be in the right job, with the right employer, and the right attitude at the time. I'll be the first to say that.

The same thing goes for circumnavigating the world. Just because you've done something large in scope does not mean you are necessarily better at what needs to be done than others. There are far more knowledgeable & talented engineers than me who just haven't managed to land that large contract. I know some of them personally. Just as I reckon there are far more wise sailors out there that would never jump off a boat underway, in the middle of the ocean, without a tether. I reckon the Bumfuzzles probably know a few of them personally too


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## MikeWhy (Apr 22, 2011)

It's not at all that complicated. I've also had the easy existence that you all seem to hold against the Fuzzles. I can tell you for certain that all this means is that I'm naive to the evils the world has to offer for the unwary and the unfortunate.

I once met a commodities trader in an office tower elevator. He stepped out of a nearby office as I walked to the elevator buttons, pressed the down button, and without having to break stride, walked onto the just arriving car. He walked on behind me as the doors closed. What was odd was his comment as we rode down together. "It must be nice to have that kind of luck," he said. It didn't occur to me till much later that he had the "luck" to summon me from my office to press the button for him. *That* is what sets a great trader apart from a merely good one. (I'm not a trader. They just pay me a pittance to build software for them.) What made it odd was, if you spend any amount of time with them, you'll eventually notice traders studious avoid talking about the "luck".

To put it a different way, of the tens of thousands of times that I've fallen asleep, I haven't once ever failed to wake up. And so it is with the Fuzzles. It doesn't matter if the fuel system cuts out, or a squall knocks them flat. It always works out in the end, just as it always has before. Until it doesn't, that is, but then it won't matter.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Chris12345 said:


> Well, I believe you if you say you sailed a lot, why would you lie.
> 
> But if I would apply your approach to the bumfuzzle saga now, I would now say that all I see is a picture of a boat with you not in the picture, and I would throw in an underhand suggestion that you could have paid someone 70k for the picture and the publications you are mentioning, and not have done much of it yourself.
> 
> Do you see what I mean?


Sorry, but not only do I not understand what you mean, I don't have a freakin' _clue_ what you're implying...

You do know what the word "analogy" means, right?

Let me try yet again to make one thing absolutely clear... My reaction to the Bums' approach to sailing and cruising is based SOLELY on what they have published in their blog or magazines... They are prolific enough themselves, one certainly does not need to resort to impressions such as "somebody told me...", or "I have heard...", or whatever...

I have no doubt whatsoever about the veracity of everything they have ever claimed to have done... As I have stated previously, if anything some of my reactions are perhaps prompted by taking them too literally... But, never having met them personally, seems the fairest thing to do is take them at their word...

Again, sailing around the world is a very impressive accomplishment. I salute them for having done something I am unlikely to ever accomplish myself at this point... And, I have the greatest admiration for many aspects of the way they are choosing to live their lives, they're raising a beautiful family in a very interesting manner, and their children will be far richer than most for that experience... Is that clear enough?

But, we are primarily discussing sailing on a forum such as this, no? So, when someone who has already sailed halfway around the world proudly proclaims in a popular national cruising publication that he has no clue "what barometric pressure means", well... I've got to at least wonder about that... Obviously, as many claim that the Bums have "proven", one does not need to know such a thing to begin, or even complete, a circumnavigation... Maybe it's just me, then, but I've simply got to scratch my own head in wonder that by the time a sailor has reached Australia, maybe by then he might have learned what barometric pressure means or indicates, or at least demonstrate perhaps a passing interest in learning how to apply such knowledge...

That, and pretty much that alone, is what mystifies me about their approach to cruising... They whine about how boring a long ocean passage can be, yet remain staunchly dis-inclined to learn how to improve the performance of their sails, and thus increase comfort and reduce passage times... One certainly doesn't have to love sailing to go off cruising (I happen to myself, but many cruisers I see obviously don't), but the celebration among many of their cheerleaders of such a curious lack of desire to increase their sailing proficiency will always mystify me...

And, that's pretty much ALL I've ever said "against" the Bums, ok? Their approach obviously has worked for them so far... But, we often find ourselves dispensing our personal advice and opinions here, and all I'm saying is that there are some things about their approach that I, personally, am not prepared to applaud, or endorse...

Others may disagree, obviously... That's what keeps us all coming back here, and hopefully learning something from a lively and informed debate...


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## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

smackdaddy said:


> (PS - My wife and I lived in Hermosillo, Sonora for a year a few years back. Let's just say it ain't PV. What was the original draw to Mexico for you guys?)


What in the hell is in Hermosillo, Sonora? Were you doing IT work there?


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

LandLocked66c said:


> What in the hell is in Hermosillo, Sonora? Were you doing IT work there?


No, when my wife and I first married, I'd just come back from 2 years in the Peace Corps. She had just gotten out of college and wanted a similar adventure. So, she found a teaching position with a University there and we took off. I took my stuff with me and "worked from home" - keeping my business running from there. I flew back and forth as needed.

San Carlos (a "beach town" on the Sea of Cortez) was about 90 minutes away, so we spent a lot of time there. And we traveled to Guadalajara, etc. Hermosillo itself, however, was a pretty crappy place to live. I was very glad to leave it.


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## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

smackdaddy said:


> No, when my wife and I first married, I'd just come back from 2 years in the Peace Corps. She had just gotten out of college and wanted a similar adventure. So, she found a teaching position with a University there and we took off. I took my stuff with me and "worked from home" - keeping my business running from there. I flew back and forth as needed.
> 
> San Carlos (a "beach town" on the Sea of Cortez) was about 90 minutes away, so we spent a lot of time there. And we traveled to Guadalajara, etc. Hermosillo itself, however, was a pretty crappy place to live. I was very glad to leave it.


So BFS sales keep you pretty busy then?


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Heh-heh. We do just fine.

But, this is another reason I'm drawn to the Fuzzles' story. A lot of parallels in the sense of adventure and going big...while trying to keep things simple and "real". There's a lot to be said for that mentality.


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## jorgenl (Aug 14, 2006)

I browsed this thread and then for ****e and giggles went and downloaded the Bumfuzzles’ book “Just out looking for pirates” to my Kindle. Cost me all of $2.99 and probably will buy Pat and Ali a couple of slices of Pizza or maybe some Tacos considering their current location.

I found the book quite well written (for what it is), they seem to have a good sense of humor and definitely do not take themselves too seriously. Quite refreshing compared to some other cruising books that I have read that have endless tips on how to provision, keeping eggs fresh and recycle paper towels by drying them on the lifelines

The thing is that I can relate to some of the stuff in the book, my wife and I are in our forties and recently took some time out to go cruising, not quite RTW – only to the Bahamas and back.

I do (and did) know how to tie a bowline and a few other things about sailing so was not quite as unprepared as the Bums.

We were sometimes met with a similar attitude (to that experienced by the Bums) by the geriatric cruiser crowd, “is this your boat?” (as opposed to our parents?), “aren’t you guys a bit young to do this”?

There were plenty of trick questions such as “How much beer did you bring to the Bahamas?” No one was really interested in the answer just wanted to let us know that we did not bring enough. “How much water do you use?” Seemed to be a competition on who could survive on only 3 gallons a week while having salt water showers and rinsing with fresh water in spray bottle. FFS - you are in the Bahamas, not in the middle of the Pacific - just go get some more water when you run out.

We quickly decided to call this crowd “Crispy Cruisers” and did our best to avoid the “Bring a dish to share” gatherings (who knows how old the eggs are?). 

The common denominator seemed to be old boat, lot’s of crap on deck, bicycles, flowers pots, jerry jugs galore, sails not hoisted in the last 3 years etc. It also seemed like just because one is out cruising it is totally OK to skip personal grooming and to wear the crappiest clothing imaginable.

Above said, we met a lot of great people and whether we got along seemed to have not so much to do with age as with attitude and positive outlook

I think the Bums had at least one thing right; sailing is not exactly rocket science and with common sense and positive attitude you can figure out quite a bit as you go along.


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## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

I saw alot of what you are talking about when we visited G-Town. Bad thing is i'd probably get along with alot of them! LOL


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

smackdaddy said:


> Hey Pat! I just found the link on your blog to this very thread! Whazzup brotha?
> 
> Send me a PM or email and I'll shoot you guys a couple of BFS Boozies for your new ride and to celebrate your upcoming addition to the fam. There's no doubt you guys have done and are doing some Big Freakin' Sailing. And I, for one, admire the accomplishment...as I've said many times.
> 
> ...


Hooley Dooley ... so the Fuzzles appear to be visiting SailNet ? I though they were uttely dismissive of us armchair sailors ...


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

bljones said:


> Says the pot with a dismantled boat on the hard, to those he thinks are kettles.
> Uh, if you don't have a boat in the water, and you are a "I am-leaving-sailnet-because-you-are-all-pricks-but-I-still-check-in-and-seagull-post" blowhard, then are you not, by definition, a "sailing nowhere blowhard"?
> How many sea miles do you have under your hull, chris? Want to compare logbooks with those you consider "blowhards"?
> 
> Yeah, didn't think so.


Lol, you're still the same old self righteous blog hawker I see... nice 

Anyway, it doesn't matter that I'm on the hard, or even how many miles are under my keel - what matters is that I am happily _not_ (nor have I ever been) part of the "tear down others who are doing what I only wish I was doing" crew around here.

You and a few others proudly wear _that_ particular title, like your own little nautical scarlett letter by the looks of things these days...


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## BentSailor (Nov 10, 2010)

chrisncate said:


> Anyway, it doesn't matter that I'm on the hard, or even how many miles are under my keel - what matters is that I am happily _not_ (nor have I ever been) part of the *"tear down others who are doing what I only wish I was doing"* crew around here.
> 
> You and a few others proudly wear _that_ particular title, like your own little nautical scarlett letter by the looks of things these days...


See, the emphasised portion is where you lose me. You cannot know why people are (in your mind) "tearing down" the Bumfuzzles. Honestly, I'm a beginning sailor who wishes he was out doing what they are and I don't see the reasoning you see. I've never driven on a race circuit, but still point out bad driving to my wife (who is learning to drive atm). I've never won at grandmaster chess, yet can still point out bad moves in the game.

It is possible, and it is how I read the posts here, that people mention the issues they see in the lack of Bumfuzzle preparation & knowledge because they want to help others avoid mistakes they need not make. When even my eleven year old son's eyes widened at the thought of jumping off a boat underway without a tether - it is probable that some criticism is just well deserved with no other motivation necessary for pointing it out.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

nah .... I just enjoying kickin' 'em in the cajones when I think no one will notice, well at least until the spat meets the sack . Its outright vindictiveness on my part with a tiny wee gollop of cowardice.


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

BentSailor said:


> See, the emphasised portion is where you lose me. You cannot know why people are (in your mind) "tearing down" the Bumfuzzles. Honestly, I'm a beginning sailor who wishes he was out doing what they are and I don't see the reasoning you see. I've never driven on a race circuit, but still point out bad driving to my wife (who is learning to drive atm). I've never won at grandmaster chess, yet can still point out bad moves in the game.
> 
> It is possible, and it is how I read the posts here, that people mention the issues they see in the lack of Bumfuzzle preparation & knowledge because they want to help others avoid mistakes they need not make. When even my eleven year old son's eyes widened at the thought of jumping off a boat underway without a tether - it is probable that some criticism is just well deserved with no other motivation necessary for pointing it out.


A fair enough point in the abstract Bent, I get what you mean. However, I have to disagree with you in the case of this thread (as well as other topics/threads here on SN), where the it's the same old posters who typically pop up to condescendingly snipe at the cruiser who may take a different route/take on things cruising related.

Certain posters here (I'm told) have many many miles under their keel, which seems to provide them with all of the justification they need to glibly hand out judgement (often mean spirited) on other cruisers. What I mean by "tear down others who are doing what I only wish I was doing" doesn't necessarily mean that I am saying they wish _they_ were cruising... I believe many here who like to rag on others "different" ways on the water have plenty of cruising miles logged. That's not really at issue here.

It's clear that on SN (as well as the other sailing forums) that there is never a shortage of "cruising experts" who jump at any chance to huff and puff and angrily point out that _they_ are the real experts (like BJ did to me in the post of his I quoted a few minutes ago in fact), and why so and so is "doing it all wrong". It's tacky, that's all I'm saying..


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## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

It's actually called being a keyboard commando... Some of the comments that take place on boards usually would not be spoken face to face. There is a disconnection obviously online and that can embolden folks to say things that they would not normally do face to face. I'm guilty of it along with most others that have online social activities. What's really interesting is seeing people go into commando mode and not come back out. SN has it's share that's for sure!


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

chrisncate said:


> Lol, you're still the same old self righteous blog hawker I see... nice


And you're still the same old hairshirted self-ostracizing (that's a bit rich) with a victim complex and poor comprehension skills... not so nice.

Perhaps, poor, misunderstood, maligned chris, you could point out exactly where I "tore down" the bumfuzzles?

Yeah, didn't think so.

I tore down you, (uncalled for) . You and the Bumfuzzless are two entirely different kettles of fish- they did it without excuses- you aren't doing it, and have nothing but excuses and a destroyed boat without an engine to show for it. The fact that you equate yourself with them tells me a great deal about your ego and your tenuous grip on reality.

Time to shift your paradigm, (cough) , because your wounded -ego shtick gets old, and gets in the way of you getting where you want to go. They probably told you that in 11th grade as well, and back then you probably thought the problem was everybody else.
It isn't.

Go ahead and whine that this is a personal attack, because make no mistake, it is. Your bitter, confrontational, vindictive approach to me and others here in the past WHO HAVE GIVEN YOU ADVICE YOU ASKED FOR BASED ON EXPERIENCE YOU DON'T HAVE, makes you a negative presence whose departure was not mourned, and whose return is not celebrated. Your attacks on me and others here who have endeavoured to help you, your general rejection of all the majority of advice you have been given and your constant confrontational tone makes one tired of your tiresome fecal turbulation.

Mods, I'll happily take a ban now.

( Well you'll take a bit of editing anyway. )


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

I hear you LL. I get nothing but crap on the forums, but kudos in real life at the marina, for our "naive" cruising philosophies. The duality is amazing, and it's like no one at the marina who wanders over and chats in real life has _ever_ posted on a forum..


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

> I tore down you, poser. You and the Bumfuzzless are two entirely different kettles of fish- they did it without excuses- you aren't doing it, and have nothing but excuses and a destroyed boat without an engine to show for it. The fact that you equate yourself with them tells me a great deal about your ego and your tenuous grip on reality.


My boats fine and the refits going well and on schedule, but you know that already. Keep on checking in on my site like I know you do for updates (I get IP addresses in my stats feature, so I am aware of how often you check my site: thanks for the support friend!).



> Time to shift your paradigm, troll, because your wounded -ego shtick gets old, and gets in the way of you getting where you want to go. They probably told you that in 11th grade as well, and back then you probably thought the problem was everybody else.
> It isn't.





> Go ahead and whine that this is a personal attack, because make no mistake, it is. Your bitter, confrontational, vindictive approach to me and others here in the past WHO HAVE GIVEN YOU ADVICE YOU ASKED FOR BASED ON EXPERIENCE YOU DON'T HAVE, makes you a negative presence whose departure was not mourned, and whose return is not celebrated. Your attacks on me and others here who have endeavoured to help you, your general rejection of all the majority of advice you have been given and your constant confrontational tone makes one tired of your tiresome fecal turbulation.
> 
> Mods, I'll happily take a ban now.


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

chrisncate said:


> Anyway, it doesn't matter that I'm on the hard, or even how many miles are under my keel - what matters is that I am happily _not_ (nor have I ever been) part of the "tear down others who are doing what I only wish I was doing" crew around here.
> 
> You and a few others proudly wear _that_ particular title, like your own little nautical scarlett letter by the looks of things these days...


C'mon. Seriously???

This is a DISCUSSION forum. Of course we don't all SAIL our boats around on here. It is the friggin internet, so we discuss. To say Sailnet is full of naysayers is a pile of complete and utter steaming turd.

In this thread there has been plenty of people saying what they admire and like about the Bumfuzzles approach, and plenty saying what they don't like. That is called a discussion.

Contribute to it meaningfully if you will, give your 2 cents, but don't come on here with the usual line " you guys aren't out there doing it, your all naysaying armchair sailors". Respectfully how do you know what I am or not doing in real life?

It is precisely because of the criticism and the opinions of the more experience that I am on here. If guys with more sea miles than me have an opinion I want to hear it......same goes at the yachtclub bar and down the Marina.


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

> C'mon. Seriously???
> 
> This is a DISCUSSION forum. Of course we don't all SAIL our boats around on here. It is the friggin internet, so we discuss. To say Sailnet is full of naysayers is a pile of complete and utter steaming turd.


Huh? what are you talking about? I said we should all "sail the forum"? wha..?

Anyway, SN isn't "full" of naysayers, I said there is a certain crew of them here. Like it or not, certain posters can always be counted on to comment with a certain negative slant towards others doing cruising differently. It's just a fact.



> In this thread there has been plenty of people saying what they admire and like about the Bumfuzzles approach, and plenty saying what they don't like. That is called a discussion.


Thanks for the lesson.



> Contribute to it meaningfully if you will, give your 2 cents, but don't come on here with the usual line " you guys aren't out there doing it, your all naysaying armchair sailors". Respectfully how do you know what I am or not doing in real life?


Who are you defending here exactly? May I expect the same advice from you towards BJ and his hilarious hate filled rant provided to me a minute ago? Or is this advice for me and me alone.. ?



> It is precisely because of the criticism and the opinions of the more experience that I am on here. If guys with more sea miles than me have an opinion I want to hear it......same goes at the yachtclub bar and down the Marina.


Well, all I can say to that is take all forum advice from the experts here with a grain of salt and try to think for yourself as much as possible.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

I guess this thread has moved on from a strictly BF thread to a discussion of what constitutes justifiable criticism.

It seems to me that most of the posters here have been quite happy to give the Fuzzles a pat on the back (no pun intended) for what they have achieved without seeing the need to place them on high alongside JC and the saints in all their glory. 

Yeah I find the Pat for Pope squad a tad weird but hey, to each his own.

We will however try and keep it tadge civil shall we ? This is not Off Topic.


kissy kissy


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

tdw said:


> I guess this thread has moved on from a strictly BF thread to a discussion of what constitutes justifiable criticism.
> 
> *It seems to me that most of the posters here have been quite happy to give the Fuzzles a pat on the back (no pun intended) for what they have achieved without seeing the need to place them on high alongside JC and the saints in all their glory.*
> 
> ...


Most have to be sure, I agree. I am not the first here to comment on the negative posts, I just chimed in (always a mistake on my part.. lol).

Anyway, sorry to ruffle up the forum and cause a ruckus, I figured my long break would have been sufficient for certain posters to get over the last go round, but apparently not... 

I'll try to be good tdw... I'll truly try.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

chrisncate said:


> My boats fine and the refits going well and on schedule, but you know that already. Keep on checking in on my site like I know you do for updates (I get IP addresses in my stats feature, so I am aware of how often you check my site: thanks for the support friend!).


Uh, sorry the record straight, but I haven't visited your site since you took the link out of your sig and stormed away from sailnet the last time you had a hissy fit and vowed never to return. Or was it the time before that? So please, IT genius, in the interest of accuracy, point out how many times I have visited your site, and the date of my last visit. Not that I am calling you a liar, but, apparently like so many things in your life, perhaps you are confused and innaccurate about this as well. or maybe you have me mixed up with somebody who actually thinks you are important enough, interesting enough, and informative enough to actually follow.

(Abuse editted out.)

(Sorry chaps but the Jones boy is out of here for a few days.)

Congrats, you are the first person I have ever been motivated to add to an ignore list.


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

chrisncate said:


> Huh? what are you talking about? I said we should all "sail the forum"? wha..?


My point is that this is a discussion forum on the INTERNET. You can't criticize a discussion forum on the basis that it is only full of discussion. How do you know what the folk here do when not in front of a computer??



chrisncate said:


> Thanks for the lesson.


No problem. Your current behavior hear warranted such patronization. I am happy to oblige.



chrisncate said:


> Who are you defending here exactly? May I expect the same advice from you towards BJ and his hilarious hate filled rant provided to me a minute ago? Or is this advice for me and me alone.. ?


I didn't think I was defending anyone. Merely suggesting that rather than the "naysaying armchair rant" you contribute something meaningful. Smack disagrees with BJ, and has managed to say why he does without spewing forth any of the diatribe you felt the need to share.



chrisncate said:


> Well, all I can say to that is take all forum advice from the experts here with a grain of salt and try to think for yourself as much as possible.


I like my salt followed by a shot of tequila and a lemon personally.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

We did instigate the 'enforced ignore' function in order to deal with a ruckus twixt you know who and that other fella. woof woof. It was done cos really it became tres tedious having to listen to those two going at each other like a couple of tom cats. 

I really do not wish to have to envoke such powers. Walking on water is hard enough to do on a daily basis, having to channel that green fellow with the bulging veins and torn clothes * is overly taxing. It takes it out of one, it really does. 

* no not Shrek you gormless fools ... the other green fellow ... oh never mind .......


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## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

So I wonder what's going on in the Rule 62 thread?


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## BentSailor (Nov 10, 2010)

tdw said:


> * no not Shrek you gormless fools ... the other green fellow ... oh never mind .......


I know, I know! It's Green Lantern right? It's either him or Green Arrow. It wouldn't be Green Hornet, there isn't much green on him... What do you mean I won't like it when you get angry?  :laugher


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)




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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

chrisncate said:


> All "forum sailing experts" views and posts ought to be viewed as "for entertainment purposes only" and certainly given no priority over the actions and opinions of those who actually _do_.


Just to set the record straight, that was your first post in this thread. It is with this comment I take issue for the reasons discussed above. I have nothing against you, or any interest in getting involved on either side your personal spat.



tdw said:


> We did instigate the 'enforced ignore' function in order to deal with a ruckus twixt you know who and that other fella. woof woof. It was done cos really it became tres tedious having to listen to those two going at each other like a couple of tom cats.
> 
> I really do not wish to have to envoke such powers. Walking on water is hard enough to do on a daily basis, having to channel that green fellow with the bulging veins and torn clothes * is overly taxing. It takes it out of one, it really does.
> 
> * no not Shrek you gormless fools ... the other green fellow ... oh never mind .......


Oh Oh Oh..........

I get it.....

The incredible one......

ummm....

ooo.....










*Sooooooo ummmmmmmm"Rocna is the best anchor in the world" Discuss  *


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## BentSailor (Nov 10, 2010)

Come on, Kermit is no super-hero - he doesn't have an super powers... then again, strictly speaking, neither does Batman which is probably why Superman would kick his butt (_nerd fight_! ).


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

Hey Bent he is my Hero.

It isn't easy being green....


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

chall03 said:


> Just to set the record straight, that was your first post in this thread. It is with this comment I take issue for the reasons discussed above. I have nothing against you, or any interest in getting involved on either side your personal spat.


True enough, my first post was in response to another poster noting certain negativity:

*Originally Posted by rallyman1122 * 


> After reading this entire thread, I can see why the Bum's hold the internet critics in such low regard. Pat and Ali are out living their lives. Most posting here are are too busy being negative to actually do anything. You are too busy spouting off about how the Bum's are doing everything wrong. Pitiful. You should get out and to something instead of telling everyone else how someone is doing something wrong.
> 
> And yes, I bought them pizza before and will buy them pizza again!
> Well said, and very true.


*chrisncate:*


> All "forum sailing experts" views and posts ought to be viewed as "for entertainment purposes only" and certainly given no priority over the actions and opinions of those who actually do.


For the record as well, the spat is one way on BJ's side. I am not "internet mad" at him, and I honestly hold no ill will (even when being peppered by personal insults by him). Honestly it looks so bad when internet "fighting" I am loathe to even comment as much as I did, but I am only human I suppose.

I'll extend right here and now an open invite to BJ - If you're ever in the Chesapeake/Annapolis area, I'll buy you a beer and extend a friendship handshake in sincerity.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

*mine too though Zoot was also a fav ..*


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## BentSailor (Nov 10, 2010)

I always had a fond place for Gonzo.






_Talk about your thread drift!!!_


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

Chrisncate - I believe my comments are also valid on Rallymans original post as well. 

MY point is just that to simply dismiss us all as "forum sailing experts" who aren't "out there" and "doing it" is misinformed. 

I hope he doesn't mind me using him as a example but I2f is someone who posted a opinion here but is out there living his dream just as much as the BF's.

I personally am about to head off for a indefinite period with my wife and baby to cruise the east coast of Australia and then the Pacific. 

I am just sick of hearing the same old crap. Just because someone has a opinion contrary to yours does not mean that they are an nay-saying armchair sailor. It might mean they have been out there and done it, made some of the stupid mistakes themselves and the rest of us might be able to learn a thing or two.


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## MikeWhy (Apr 22, 2011)

Oooh. Can we sing Kumbayah next?


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

chall03 said:


> Chrisncate - I believe my comments are also valid on Rallymans original post as well.
> 
> MY point is just that to simply dismiss us all as "forum sailing experts" who aren't "out there" and "doing it" is misinformed.
> 
> ...


I didn't dismiss "all of you" as forum sailing experts (whatever the caveat), so please stop saying that, ok?

So we are all clear - I believe that some of you here are too negative towards those who cruise in a different way than you do. No more, no less, and this statement is not all encompassing towards everyone posting here. Simple as that. You should also keep in mind that I might have some history here with being on the receiving end of advice and opinion regarding the evolution of my particular cruising philosophy (motorless, simple systems). I didn't register here yesterday, and I know who/how certain posters are here.

Chall - We are heading off as well for an indefinite cruise, our hopes and plans are to go rtw. We launch within the next 90 days, and our boat is to be our home. No matter what experience we gain over the next years of our lives, you won't find me ever posting on forums how I think others are doing it wrong. People cross oceans and cruise in almost every sailing configuration possible, and whatever works for them works for them.


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

chrisncate said:


> I didn't dismiss "all of you" as forum sailing experts (whatever the caveat), so please stop saying that, ok?


Well I am sorry but that is exactly how I read the below.



chrisncate said:


> Well said, and very true.
> 
> All "forum sailing experts" views and posts ought to be viewed as "for entertainment purposes only" and certainly given no priority over the actions and opinions of those who actually _do_.





chrisncate said:


> So we are all clear - I believe that some of you here are too negative towards those who cruise in a different way than you do. No more, no less, and this statement is not all encompassing towards everyone posting here. Simple as that. You should also keep in mind that I might have some history here with being on the receiving end of advice and opinion regarding my particular cruising philosophy (motorless, simple systems). I didn't register here yesterday, and I know who/how certain posters are here.
> 
> Chall - We are heading off as well for an indefinite cruise, our hopes and plans are to go rtw. We launch within the next 90 days, and our boat is to be our home. No matter what experience we gain over the next years of our lives, you won't find me ever posting on forums how I think others are doing it wrong, nor how I have the right or better answers for others.


I don't agree with everyone here on everything either and our style of cruising probably fits somewhere between the extremes.

I hope that if you do make it around that you will post about your experiences, and offer advice. My favourite cruising author of all time, my inspiration, my guru is a a guy called Jim Moore who wrote "by the way of the wind" and "Swan". He always used to preface any and all advice with just a simple "this is what worked for us........"

He and his wife did RTW back in the day when simplistic was the only approach, and succeeded through common sense and know how rather than years of experience and training.


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

> Well I am sorry but that is exactly how I read the below


Well, I don't know why because it's not in there:



> All "forum sailing experts" views and posts ought to be viewed as "for entertainment purposes only" and certainly given no priority over the actions and opinions of those who actually do


By "forum sailing experts" I certainly wasn't referring to everyone here because I don't think all (most) posters actually consider themselves experts, just a select few seem to do that (and I am not referring at this point to this thread in particular, I am referring to forums in general now). If I meant everyone, I'd have said "forum sailing posters" instead. Honestly it doesn't matter though, and I hope this ends this line of discussion at this point.



> I don't agree with everyone here on everything either and our style of cruising probably fits somewhere between the extremes.
> 
> I hope that if you do make it around that you will post about your experiences, and offer advice. My favourite cruising author of all time, my inspiration, my guru is a a guy called Jim Moore who wrote "by the way of the wind" and "Swan". He always used to preface any and all advice with just a simple "this is what worked for us........"
> 
> He and his wife did RTW back in the day when simplistic was the only approach, and succeeded through common sense and know how rather than years of experience and training.


Sounds like an author I'd like to read, I'll look into him, thanks.

Regarding posting advice, I would for sure when/if asked. I see no reason to go negative on someone though, and I wholeheartedly agree with a starter like "this is what worked for us........"


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

chrisncate said:


> By "forum sailing experts" I certainly wasn't referring to everyone here because I don't think all (most) posters actually consider themselves experts, just a select few seem to do that (and I am not referring at this point to this thread in particular, I am referring to forums in general now). If I meant everyone, I'd have said "forum sailing posters" instead. Honestly it doesn't matter though, and I hope this ends this line of discussion at this point.


Yeah look OK. To me it does matter though, because whatever beef you have with folk in here from stuff they have said to you in the past is just that, if you pop up mid- thread and jump on the back of another guy's Sailnet bash and start swinging the punches then be prepared to defend your corner.



chrisncate said:


> Sounds like an author I'd like to read, I'll look into him, thanks.


I would recommend it, his story basically is that he said to wife one day over dinner "honey let's build a boat and sail around the world" and then basically they did just that. It was the 70's, there was no GPS, no Epirbs and no internet forums  They didn't know how to sail, but learn't and then well around they went.



chrisncate said:


> Regarding posting advice, I would for sure when/if asked. I see no reason to go negative on someone though, and I wholeheartedly agree with a starter like "this is what worked for us........"


I think if you look around any marina, or around any anchorage you will find just as many different philosophies on cruising as you will boats.

We all do it in our own style, and obviously within the budget we have available. If I had twice as much money we would probably have a few more gadgets and possibly a bigger newer boat, if I had half the money we would probably still be going but we would be on a smaller older boat without as many toys. Either way we would be going, and I would do whatever I could to make the boat as safe as possible.

As for the Bumfuzzles I like them. I admire that they are out there doing it. I love that they are a family doing it because that is us. I agree with them that there are a lot of retirees on shiny 50 somethings with watermakers, Air con, and TV's out there these days and that isn't the only way to do it. However yeah there are a lot of things we ourselves are doing differently to them.......Doesn't matter though, hopefully we will run into them out there, our girls can run around together on a beach and over a quiet beer we can have the 'this is what works for us' discussion. If your around Chris there is a beer there for you as well( after we have towed you into the anchorage cause there was no wind   )


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## sailordave (Jun 26, 2001)

JonEisberg said:


> They whine about how boring a long ocean passage can be, yet remain staunchly dis-inclined to learn how to improve the performance of their sails, and thus increase comfort and reduce passage times... One certainly doesn't have to love sailing to go off cruising (I happen to myself, but many cruisers I see obviously don't), but the celebration among many of their cheerleaders of such a curious lack of desire to increase their sailing proficiency will always mystify me...


This is something that irks me about a LOT of sailors. I know too many folks who treat sailing as something to go do for a couple of hours as a social outing... and there is nothing wrong w/ that approach. 
But these are often the same folks that will only go out when the weather is perfect and don't want to sail in awkward situations, won't sail into the slip, won't sail if it's light out, don't want a second reef in their sail b/c they never sail when it's that windy (like squalls NEVER come up!) and just generally are clueless about sail trim. 
My gripe is: WHY THE HELL WOULDN'T YOU WANT TO BE THE BEST SAILOR YOU COULD BE?  More fun, go more places, easier on your boat/gear/crew.

My outlook on life has always been that you're more likely to be happy if you try to excel in all you do. Has worked pretty well for me.


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## HeartsContent (Sep 14, 2010)

*Battle Thread?*

Isn't there a battle thread for this stuff?


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

Wow!!, over 10,000 hits. When I started this thread I never had any idea it would generate this kind of activity. Hopefully it has helped those with little or no experience that being prepared may save them from having to deal with problems at sea instead of at the dock.

Dabnis


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## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

dabnis said:


> Hopefully it has helped those with little or no experience that being prepared may save them from having to deal with problems at sea instead of at the dock.
> 
> Dabnis


I don't think this thread has helped anyone! LOL


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

FWIW I like them, read their stuff and find it very entertaining. I do suspect Pat writes a lot of it to get the ire up of many a more "traditional" sailor and I too enjoy that aspect of his writings. Their style is not how I do it but I don't care how they choose to do it and they don't care how I do it..

The bottom line for me is that I find them entertaining and they've done it, luck or not. I also like stories of their shore adventures and care free attitude.

I would not do as the Pardey's did either but like the Bums I don't criticize them either. Have we all forgotten Robin Lee Graham and the controversy he stirred up..?

*P.S.* chrisncate, I read your post as many others did as a slam on all the posters not just the "experts". However, given your argument about it being aimed at just the "experts", I would certainly consider Jon E. an expert and one who's done it more so than perhaps 98% of sailors out there. He certainly does not fit into your "expert" status of;



chrisncate said:


> Another way to put it - forums, like marinas, are never lacking in *expert advice handed out by sailing nowhere blowhards*.


or as someone we should ignore, so the post still came across as offensive when I apply it to actual "experts" who've posted in this thread. If you want to indict someone as an "internet expert" and direct your anger at them you might want to use the quote feature of the person you disagree with to avoid confusion about your actual intent... Just my take & thoughts..


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

LandLocked66c said:


> I don't think this thread has helped anyone! LOL


Land,

You may be right. As mentioned before, all of this probably won't change anybody's mind about anything, anyway. However, maybe some who haven't already made up their mind may think about what it is to be prepared?

Dabnis


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## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

But Jon E is a self admitted "blowhard"!


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

LandLocked66c said:


> But Jon E is a self admitted "blowhard"!


I suppose that puts me in the same category, but without his experience.
Guess I have always been a worrier, I hate "surprises", especially when at sea.

Dabnis


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## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

dabnis said:


> Land,
> 
> You may be right. As mentioned before, all of this probably won't change anybody's mind about anything, anyway. However, maybe some who haven't already made up their mind may think about what it is to be prepared?
> 
> Dabnis


I know that when I start seeing all the negative remarks, I tend to turn off and go somewhere else ie. different threads and or sites.


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

Maine -Meh, maybe my one liner was a bit harsh, I don't know... (still doesn't mean I ought to be talked to like BJ talks to me, but since you are fine with that, so am I)

Initially I felt like chiming in on this thread because I sincerely do feel like certain posters here seem to go out of their way to put digs in whenever possible towards cruisers with different philosophies. It's what I see sometimes here, and I commented on it here in this thread. This thread was initially started as a piece of red meat thrown out in order for the comments to roll in, let's be honest about that at least.

We can't we admit there is a fairly narrow set of parameters that makes one an acceptable cruiser on the forums? Go look back on this forum and other forums at threads started in which questions about possibly straying from the typical cruising setup are asked (motorless, hank up instead of furler, alternatives to propane cooking, heating, cruising to destinations in ways that are "non traditional" etc).

Experienced cruisers aren't as open minded as they let on much of the time. This is my opinion, and I do expect to be totally excoriated right here for it of course.


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## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

And for the Bumfuzzles!


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

tdw said:


> Cripes , I'm not sure about including Moitessier. He did pretty well with the dolphins off the bottom of NewZealand (do you know that story Smack ?) but after that he managed to wreck two of his boats.


Hey I missed this one. What's the story on the dolphins TD?


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## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

smackdaddy said:


> Hey I missed this one. What's the story on the dolphins TD?


Buy it! Read it!
Amazon.com: The Long Way (9780924486845): Bernard Moitessier: Books

The dolphins helped/warned him of thin water while rounding Austrailia. Terrific book!!!


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Holy crap - I just dug back a few pages and saw the meltdown! And the banstick came out! That was rather epic. 

For crying out loud...take it to FightClub you cranky bastards!

Now about those dolphins - who have absolutely NO seamanship skills whatsoever...


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

chrisncate said:


> Maine -Meh, maybe my one liner was a bit harsh, I don't know... (still doesn't mean I ought to be talked to like BJ talks to me, but since you are fine with that, so am I)
> 
> Initially I felt like chiming in on this thread because I sincerely do feel like certain posters here seem to go out of their way to put digs in whenever possible towards cruisers with different philosophies. It's what I see sometimes here, and I commented on it here in this thread. This thread was initially started as a piece of red meat thrown out in order for the comments to roll in, let's be honest about that at least.
> 
> ...


"Red meat"? I have enjoyed following the Bums since they started their site and thought others might be interested also. My opening post was just a statement of facts with no opinion being offered. Others chose to comment along the way.

Dabnis, Nowhere blowhard


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## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

smackdaddy said:


> For crying out loud...take it to FightClub you cranky bastards!


There wouldn't be any active topics after that! Just fightclub


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

smackdaddy said:


> Holy crap - I just dug back a few pages and saw the meltdown! And the banstick came out! That was rather epic.
> 
> For crying out loud...take it to FightClub you cranky bastards!
> 
> Now about those dolphins - who have absolutely NO seamanship skills whatsoever...


Smack, take LandLocked's advice and get the book. In this day and age of boat cockpits looking like the flightdeck of a 747 (mea culpa) Moitessier is nothing if not refreshing. Now there's a man who did it his way, supposedly the seaman's seaman but he still managed to wreck a couple of boats along the way.

As for the dolphins I couldn't do the tale justice but when round the bottom of NewZealand (not Australia) BM was woken by the noise of a pod of dolphins who would go past Joshua then take a sharp turn to starboard before circling back and doing it all again. BM then checked his position and realised he had strayed off course and was headed straight for one of the small islands of the bottom of NZ's South Island. He changed course, at which time the pod disappeared except for a couple of members who stayed alongside until Joshua had passed by said island.

Anywho, as I said if you have not read the Long Way Round you should. Without doubt one of the truly great sailing books.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Yeah, but how can you ever beat this?










She's not green. But she's very well armed....ehm....legged.


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

I thought I had a lot of time on my hands.

Dabnis


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## MikeWhy (Apr 22, 2011)

tdw said:


> ... Moitessier is nothing if not refreshing. Now there's a man who did it his way, supposedly the seaman's seaman ... Without doubt one of the truly great sailing books.


I don't know about all that. I think of it as a cautionary tale, a peek inside growing madness. This was the trip where he abandoned the race with it all but won, and turned back south to round the great capes yet again. For sure, check the gray matter dipstick periodically since it's equally important as working fuel systems and tying hitches and bends that hold.


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## BentSailor (Nov 10, 2010)

sailordave said:


> WHY THE HELL WOULDN'T YOU WANT TO BE THE BEST SAILOR YOU COULD BE?


I can answer this one by using a hobby of mine, digital artwork. Ever since the end of high-school, I've been interested in (and an amateur creator of) digital paintings and art. I like the feeling of expressing myself once I get into the zone and am proud of the result (moreso as time went along, naturally).

That said, to get as good as Feng Zhu, Harald Belker, Ryan Church, & other (digital) artistic legends - I would need to be practising for hours a day. I neither have the time or the inclination to do that, happy as I am to potter around having fun whilst never becoming _"the best artist I could be"_.

Would I like to be the best artist I can? Sure. Are my priorities in line with this compared to the other things I could be doing or the time I could be spending with my family? Nowhere near it.

And like alot of those perfect conditions only, weekend coastal sailors - I too succumb to the lure of buying that tool I don't really need but makes thigns just a little easier for me. Instead of sketching with a pencil, paper, & eraser - when I get the itch I use my wireless Wacom graphics tablet with Photoshop on the laptop. Sure, a "proper artist" doesn't need those things, but I'm happy enough relying on them for my fun.

The only failure in this analogy that I can see is that this puts no-one in harms way. The safety of my kids always puts an added twist on everything I do (I'm a safe driver to the point of frustration to others... though even they admit it's a good thing most of the time  ).


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## SailingWonder (Jul 6, 2011)

dabnis said:


> Wow!!, over 10,000 hits. When I started this thread I never had any idea it would generate this kind of activity. Hopefully it has helped those with little or no experience that being prepared may save them from having to deal with problems at sea instead of at the dock.
> 
> Dabnis


That was meant to be sarcastic right? This was the point of this thread? lmao

The Bums sailed out of San Francisco on May 26th and sailed in to Puerto Vallarta on July 1st. That's what, 1500 miles in a little over a month? This is the cautionary tale you speak of?

What? they sailed a hundred miles without air in there fuel line, but then it showed up again in Santa Cruz where they spend a week figuring it out and fixing it. Anyone who has ever had air in their fuel line, especially a slow leak, know that it can be notoriously hard to find. Two fuel tanks, three filters, countless lines, pickup tubes, there are at least a dozen places that air could have been getting in. You would have had them motor around the marina over a hundred miles to confirm that they weren't still getting air in?

Their main tore in half. He said he expected it to happen he just didn't know when. That's something most of us would have taken care of before we left, but that he chose to risk. Big deal.

And their coupler snapped. I doubt many of us would have seen that coming. And even if we would have who cares? it's a sailboat, so what did he do? He sailed the boat in.

Some people aren't afraid to deal with problems at sea some are. What this story showed me is the most important thing to do is watch for a good weather window. They were delayed a few weeks in San Francisco waiting for the right weather and then he went all the way to Mexico with lite winds and swells from behind.

You said your experience is only in Northern California. Is that because you are still at the dock making sure you've got everything just right, including having your mandatory AIS hooked up. (grin)


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

MikeWhy said:


> I don't know about all that. I think of it as a cautionary tale, a peek inside growing madness. This was the trip where he abandoned the race with it all but won, and turned back south to round the great capes yet again. For sure, check the gray matter dipstick periodically since it's equally important as working fuel systems and tying hitches and bends that hold.


wow .... had you been talking about Crowhurst I might have understood but no, BM was eccentric and had bugger all sense of responsibility towards others e.g. his wife but he was not mad.

While its true he abandoned the race he was not as is commonly believed in a position where he would definitely win and he'd been contemplating abandoning the contest well before he actually did.


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## MikeWhy (Apr 22, 2011)

I don't want to make too much of it. Knowing how it ends is why I bought and read his book, and so maybe I just expected to find his manic depressive highs and lows. It just screams at you off the pages if you read it with that in mind. Come to think of it now, though, I can't rightly remember if he left his wife after that. Too many blue water sailing yarns crossed under that bridge before and since for me to keep straight what happened how to whom.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

I've found over the years that the manic highs and lows seem to be par for the course with solo long distance sailors. Even the supposedly well centred souls such as Chay Blythe Nigel Tetley had there ups and downs as did the winner of the aforementioned race, Robin Knox Johnston. 

Maybe it had as much to do with the financial pressures these guys were up against. None of them had any real financial backing. Tetley lost his home, Knox J was sailing his old boat which even he thought was unsuited for the purpose blah de blah de blah.


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## carball (Jun 3, 2011)

WOW, hot post~~


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

SailingWonder said:


> That was meant to be sarcastic right? This was the point of this thread? lmao
> 
> The Bums sailed out of San Francisco on May 26th and sailed in to Puerto Vallarta on July 1st. That's what, 1500 miles in a little over a month? This is the cautionary tale you speak of?
> 
> ...


Sailing,
Right , Northern Cal and Gold Beach and the Chetco on good days. Also, two round trips SF to Victoria BC courtesy of the US Navy. Other posters and I suggested Pat pressurize the fuel system in an effort to find the air leak. IIRC,he did not do this but later discovered the leak basically by accident.
Due to physical limitations we no longer have our own boat anymore but still enjoy going out of Fort Bragg on a charter boat. If I was going to go to sleep while being underway I would like all the help I can get, radar and AIS included. That's just me, your mileage may vary. I started the thread because I thought others might be interested in it.

Dabnis


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Wait. Are you saying Chuck Norris and Miss Piggy hooked up?


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

20 pages ............... sure wish I could figure out what is really be "discussed"

mayne the thread title needs changing


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Okay - I'll bring us back on track...because Chris has obviously been hitting the sauce/herb too hard.

Back to Vigor's Black Box Theory...what if there is an inverse to that theory? To wit, here are his four "essentials":

1. A well-found ship
2. A good crew
3. Adequate preparation and maintenance
4. Seamanship

Then, look at Vigor's fifth and most important essential, which is basically "earned luck" - earned by the amount of points accrued through attention/dedication to the other four essentials.

In the case of the Fuzzles, when they initially started off, how many of these four did they have in their box? I think it could be easily argued...zero. In fact, they talk about this in their blog.

SO, the Fuzzles trip flies in the face of all this. What's the explanation for their "unearned luck"? Could it be that the sailor's luck is actually inversely proportional to his awareness and/or worry over the first four?

In other words, they were _blissfully_ ignorant of all the "necessities" for a full black box. Their box was empty, yet they never had to "pay the price".

Hmmm. What would Vigor have to say about that?


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## RocketScience (Sep 8, 2008)

smackdaddy said:


> ...
> Hmmm. What would Vigor have to say about that?


I think he would take an educated guess at the _Law of Averages_ as they pertain to just about everything.

I am a Vigor fan, read all his books. Like him and many of us here, I prefer to err on the side of preparedness. But even in the case of a circumnavigation, you'd still be playing fairly decent odds with even an average sailing sense.

I would guess the Bums could circumnavigate (ala 2003 trip) a few more times without ever a major hitch, but eventually those pesky law of averages would find their path. As a Bum fan, I can only hope that Pat and Ali's black box of experience and preparedness gets filled before this ever happens.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

sailordave said:


> This is something that irks me about a LOT of sailors. I know too many folks who treat sailing as something to go do for a couple of hours as a social outing... and there is nothing wrong w/ that approach.
> But these are often the same folks that will only go out when the weather is perfect and don't want to sail in awkward situations, won't sail into the slip, won't sail if it's light out, don't want a second reef in their sail b/c they never sail when it's that windy (like squalls NEVER come up!) and just generally are clueless about sail trim.
> My gripe is: WHY THE HELL WOULDN'T YOU WANT TO BE THE BEST SAILOR YOU COULD BE?  More fun, go more places, easier on your boat/gear/crew.
> 
> My outlook on life has always been that you're more likely to be happy if you try to excel in all you do. Has worked pretty well for me.


Well, you're making the mistaken assumption that most cruisers are out there for the sailing&#8230; While that may have been true, say, 30 years ago, it no longer describes the primary motive for going off cruising, in my observation&#8230; Cruising used to be a great means of exercising one's love for sailing as a _pastime_, but that's all changed since recreational boating became an industry into itself, and cruising became marketed as a _lifestyle_&#8230;

This shift was the result of the confluence of 3 primary factors, in my view&#8230; The birth of the phenomenon of the Boat Show, the proliferation of the glossy cruising/sailing rags, and the popularity of the charter industry&#8230;

The side-by-side comparison shopping opportunity afforded by Boat Shows resulted in the shift away from boats being designed to be _sailed_, to the maximization of comforts below, and appeal to the distaff partner in the purchase&#8230; With the rise of the influence of the Boat Shows, boats began to be designed from the inside out, and stuff like cockpit and deck ergonomics and general sailing characteristics took a back seat to commodious accommodation, and appeal and utility of kitchens and bathrooms&#8230;

Many people were lured into week long charter vacations in places like the BVIs, and came home with the idea cruising must be like an endless repetition of sipping sundowners in places like Cane Garden Bay&#8230; What's not to like about that?

And, CRUISING WORLD and the rest sold the dream to eager consumers in an era of burgeoning disposable income, and did it very well&#8230; Never mind that probably 80% of the crap flogged at boat shows and in the magazines nowadays will ultimately wind up degrading the performance of most boats under sail, adding weight up high, or windage, whatever&#8230; It's a very rare cruiser today, when given the opportunity to spend $2K on a sexy upgrade, will favor a Code 0 over the latest chartplotter pre-loaded with 3-D cartography&#8230;

Many folks I see out there today are stinkpotters deep down, they're simply interfacing their autopilots to waypoints on sailboats instead of trawlers&#8230; They may like the IDEA of sailing, but if you're motoring downwind on a day like this in Belize, trust me - you're a stinkpotter, at heart&#8230;. NTTAWWT, of course &#8230; (grin)










So, when Pat writes something like this, I think it's pretty obvious where he's coming from:



> "Electronics have made sailing a boat about as easy as driving a car."


And, one of his primary concerns about the switch from a catamaran to a monohull - namely, that there would no longer be a second engine available "in reserve"- only offers further confirmation, that the love of sailing may not be the primary reason they're out there&#8230;

That's fine, as many have asserted, and with whom I agree, the fact that they're _out there_ is the most important thing, good for them&#8230;

But, when the discussion revolves around SAILING, I think some of what their voyaging has "proven" is still best taken with several grains of salt&#8230; (grin)



LandLocked66c said:


> But Jon E is a self admitted "blowhard"!


Technically, I'm a self-admitted "gasbag"&#8230;

Minor distinction, I know - but I liken it to the subtle, but critical, difference between being _opinionated_, and _judgmental_&#8230; (grin)


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

JonEisberg said:


> Well, you're making the mistaken assumption that most cruisers are out there for the sailing&#8230; While that may have been true, say, 30 years ago, it no longer describes the primary motive for going off cruising, in my observation&#8230; Cruising used to be a great means of exercising one's love for sailing as a _pastime_, but that's all changed since recreational boating became an industry into itself, and cruising became marketed as a _lifestyle_&#8230;


You know, this is a very, very good point JonE. But from a couple of interesting angles that may surprise you...

In reading their blog, they are continually talking about how they don't fit with "cruisers". And one of the reasons for this is that they are continually bombarded with criticism when they run across cruisers about how much of a "hurry" they are in (e.g. - already being in Bali after only ~2 years from Florida). In other words, the cruiser set are dumbfounded that they are doing a _continuous run_ - not spending years in the various countries and/or flying back to the US/Europe for work during the "low season". So the Fuzzles are doing a real "non-stop" circ, yet they are not doing it "right" in the eyes of the crusiers. Which is real _sailing_? Which is Cruising World sailing?

Another interesting aspect that ties in with what you're saying is that the "cruiser" set is all about the _social and convenience_ aspects of the trip. In other words, it's about luxury - not adventure. They complain when things are not up to those standards of convenience. And they cling to the social network of cruising (the VHF nets, buddy boating, etc.). Is that real _sailing_? Or is it Cruising World sailing?

Honestly, from what I've read thus far, what filled their black box was 5 simple, but very, very important things:

1. They were _ABSOLUTELY IN NO HURRY_. They waited out weather windows for weeks if they had to. They had no place to be. They just rolled with it.
2. They sailed very, very conservatively. Most of the time, by their own admission, they had too little sail up - and did a great deal of motor sailing. Very, very chilled out passage making.
3. They are extremely smart, observant, and resourceful people. They learned a great deal very quickly (way more than I personally know now), they dealt with the problems as they popped up, and they made good decisions.
4. They didn't care what others thought about them - except those that really mattered...the good people in these various countries whose paths they crossed.
5. They were having the times of their lives - and _worried_ about very, very little. They were not put off by inconvenience or hardship.

For example, on number 3, you'd be very proud of them in the way they navigated unfamiliar harbors. Ali would be down below calling out directions from the chartplotter (i.e. - toy) - and Pat would be at the helm using his eyes to confirm (i.e. - head not down looking at toy). Some of the chartplotter tracks actually took them over land (unknowingly for Ali), yet Pat overrode her directions because of what he was seeing in the water and/or on the depth gauge. Using those toys wisely, eh?

In these respects, I think the Fuzzles were more about "real sailing" than many cruisers actually are. They instinctively made good calls - and had a blast doing it. And they didn't have the attitude they they somehow _deserved_ "luxury and convenience". That's why I like them.

Because of the above, I have a hunch you'd like them too over 7, maybe 9 beers.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> You know, this is a very, very good point JonE. But from a couple of interesting angles that may surprise you...
> 
> In reading their blog, they are continually talking about how they don't fit with "cruisers". And one of the reasons for this is that they are continually bombarded with criticism when they run across cruisers about how much of a "hurry" they are in (e.g. - already being in Bali after only 2 years from Florida). In other words, the cruiser set are dumbfounded that they are doing a _continuous run_ - not spending years in the various countries and/or flying back to the US/Europe for work during the "low season". So the Fuzzles are doing a real non-stop circ, yet they are not doing it "right" in the eyes of the crusiers. Which is real _sailing_? Which is Cruising World sailing?
> 
> Another interesting aspect that ties in with what you're saying is that the "cruiser" set is all about the _social and convenience_ aspects of the trip. In other words, it's about luxury - not adventure. They complain when things are not up to those standards of convenience. And they cling to the social network of cruising (the VHF nets, buddy boating, etc.). Is that real _sailing_? Or is it Cruising World sailing?


The irony of all this, is that I'm sure I would have FAR more in common with the Bums than most cruisers I run into out there who cruise in a more "traditional" mode, or who are close to my own age&#8230; My personal preference is to keep on a fairly fast track, as well, not to mention avoiding the "Pot Luck" scene like the plague&#8230; (grin) Many of the Bums' most astute observations are regarding the sort of "crusty cruisers" JorgenL alludes to in his excellent post, above...


smackdaddy said:


> Honestly, from what I've read thus far, what filled their black box was 5 simple, but very, very important things:


I think you're making way too much of Vigor's Black Box theory - it's a literary conceit, nothing more&#8230; The fact they encountered only 3 squalls during their circumnavigation "proves" only that they were indeed blessed/lucky&#8230; But, it makes absolutely no guarantee their extremely good fortune will continue&#8230;



smackdaddy said:


> 3. They are extremely smart, observant, and resourceful people. They learned a great deal very quickly (more than I personally know now), they dealt with the problems as they popped up, and they made good decisions.


That may be true&#8230; And yet, such an assertion does not square with their proclaimed disinterest in learning some of the most elemental, basic aspects of sailing&#8230; go figure&#8230;



smackdaddy said:


> 5. They were having the times of their lives - and _worried_ about very, very little. They were not put off by inconvenience or hardship.


And, yet - they thought the Marquesas "sucked", largely due to the fact they couldn't find a decent pizza&#8230; go figure &#8230;



smackdaddy said:


> For example, on number 3, you'd be very proud of them in the way they navigated unfamiliar harbors. Ali would be down below calling out directions from the chartplotter (i.e. - toy) - and Pat would be at the helm using his eyes to confirm (i.e. - head not down looking at toy). Some of the chartplotter tracks actually took them over land (unknowingly for Ali), yet Pat overrode her directions because of what he was seeing in the water and/or on the depth gauge. Using those toys wisely, eh?


Sorry, but I'm not impressed by by such an example of using "toys wisely"&#8230; Following their chartplotter track back out through the Devil's Backbone in the Bahamas during a rage is IMHO a classic example of faith in technology overriding common sense/good seamanship&#8230; JMHO, of course, as is my belief that distance voyaging without paper charts is a foolish risk - despite the fact that their first time around "proves" that it's not&#8230; (grin)


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Well, I'll tell you this Jon...even though we've gone 'round on stuff like this - you are way more likable and objective than other dudes I've run across in the past around here.

I respect your experience - and your viewpoint - and especially your ability to give a nod when it's due (even reluctantly) - but still call a spade a spade when it's warranted.

Thanks for a good, old fashioned debate, dude. I'm learning a lot. And that's what counts.


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## tankersteve (Jun 22, 2007)

*Bumfuzzles and Technology*

I have really enjoyed this thread, up until the last post - mods, can we kill the advert?

My question goes back to the idea of sailing without paper charts. Has tech reached a point where maybe this is not necessary?

Until a decade or 2 ago, you never had transatlantic or long overwater flights with less than 3 engines. Yet jet engines have now hit a level of reliability that allows this to occur.

I hope to be 'out there' sailing the Caribbean for 2 years with my family in a couple more years. We have a long way to go on preparedness and learning, and I am way more conservative than Pat and Ali, but paper charts? I plan to bring a decent chartplotter, and have a backup map router on a laptop. I will have a handheld GPS backup secured away. I will probably have a 'paper' chartbook along, more for looking and planning, than for actual navigation. In fact, I expect it would be a fairly large scale, not useful for navigation.

In the military (I am in the Army) paper maps are often being replaced with digital ones. Do we still keep paper maps? Often, but they would take so long to get to, that they may be irrelevant during the course of a battle.

There would have to be a lot of failures for my navigation aids to leave me hanging. If GPS shuts down, I am willing to bet that 90% of cruising sailors will shut down too, other than coastal sailors.

Please, enlighten me with how dangerous this is and maybe convince me to look at getting more paper charts.

However, as part of homeschooling, we may get paper charts to learn celestial navigation and route planning...

Tankersteve


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## MikeWhy (Apr 22, 2011)

Chartplotters have a lot going for them and they're better than paper in many ways, but they still don't have the screen real estate of unfolded charts. Google Earth with a 3D puck -- I use a 3DConnexion -- comes close with smooth, near instantaneous zoom, scroll, orbit, and rotate. You need something that gives the big picture _and_ the fine details. The chartplotter isn't that tool yet.


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## MikeWhy (Apr 22, 2011)

tankersteve said:


> There would have to be a lot of failures for my navigation aids to leave me hanging. If GPS shuts down, I am willing to bet that 90% of cruising sailors will shut down too, other than coastal sailors.
> 
> Please, enlighten me with how dangerous this is and maybe convince me to look at getting more paper charts.
> 
> However, as part of homeschooling, we may get paper charts to learn celestial navigation and route planning...


I haven't kept a deck log in years. In open water, with no way to build a DR plot from an hours old fix that I didn't bother to mark, losing both the chartplotter and the backup GPS would be a bit traumatic. The sextant hasn't left my guest room closet shelf in 5 years. And whatever wiped out the GPS probably also whacked the netbook and the sight reduction software. I could still muddle my way through the calcs without a worksheet, but the reduction tables are in boxes in the basement. My wristwatch this moment is more than 3 minutes fast. Even with a clear sky and ideal conditions for a noon shot, I would still not do better than a very rough DR from a fix that's as much as a full day old. I can eyeball latitude from Polaris pretty well, but that's only almost useful. Knock out the HF comms, and I'd be pretty well f_cked.

All posturing aside, then, I guess that puts me fully in the complacency camp. I could carry a third GPS -- it makes sense to have that for the life boat -- and then the scenario would have to involve EMP and nukes. I wouldn't be trying to make landfall any way.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

tankersteve said:


> My question goes back to the idea of sailing without paper charts. Has tech reached a point where maybe this is not necessary?


Well, this is one of those areas where my thoughts sound hopelessly old-fashioned, I realize&#8230; And, I'll be the first to admit, much of my prejudice is based on the fact that I simply LIKE paper charts, and always have&#8230;

But, I'm still of the opinion that voyaging into distant waters without the appropriate paper charts presents a degree of risk I'm not willing to take&#8230; A major component of good seamanship is to always envision the "What If&#8230;?" scenario, and I suppose if I have a personal mantra based upon my own experience, it would be _"Well, you never know&#8230;"_

I just happen to believe that one should be able to continue to navigate in the event of a loss of electrical power aboard&#8230; Obviously, many people feel such a scenario is highly unlikely, and will take their chances&#8230; _Well, you never know&#8230;_ On a small boat in the relatively harsh environment to tiny things electronic that offshore sailing can represent, electrons can stop flowing at any time, whether they can be inside a chartplotter, a computer tucked safely away, or a handheld GPS stashed safely inside a makeshift Faraday Cage known as a microwave&#8230; No need to ask me how I know this, of course&#8230; (grin) And without any paper charts aboard at that point, I really don't know how you proceed&#8230;

For those willing to dispense with paper, I think it is extremely important to have a full understanding of the important distinctions between paper and e-charts&#8230; I addressed this issue once before here, not sure many out there are really interested in the matter, however, it never elicited any further comment (grin):

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gener...ration-pitfalls-chartplotters.html#post681552

Finally, the ability to see the Bigger Picture that an appropriately scaled paper chart can afford at a glance is a critical advantage of paper that is very difficult to duplicate through a plotter or computer screen - especially when weighing critical options/decision making in moments of extreme duress or exhaustion&#8230;

I have no way of proving this, of course, but I believe there is a very high probability that the loss of RULE 62 would not have occurred if the skipper had relied upon a large paper chart of the NE Providence Channel that evening when he was making the decision to enter that cut&#8230; 30 seconds of perusal of such a chart, it would have become stunningly obvious the far better options of running off towards Royal Island/Spanish Wells, or into the lee of Great Abaco and up towards Sandy Point&#8230; E-charts can easily foster a sort of tunnel vision or myopia that inhibits the understanding of the bigger picture, or the possibility of thinking outside of the box&#8230;

All of this can vary depending on where you're sailing, of course... a benign cruising ground like the Chesapeake, not too much trouble one can get into if you were to suddenly find yourself chartless...

Some other places, however, that tend to be a bit harder and more abrupt around the edges, not so much... No freakin' way would I ever head off to a place like The Rock, without that very expensive stack of appropriate paper aboard... (grin)


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## MikeWhy (Apr 22, 2011)

JonEisberg said:


> stashed safely inside a makeshift Faraday Cage known as a microwave&#8230;


Cool. Thanks.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Okay, I've read their blog to the point of driving the VW bus to some lava-covered Mexican church where some teenager is performing an occultic ritual with a chicken.

They are SO much more interesting than the seamen who decry their technique.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> Okay, I've read their blog to the point of driving the VW bus to some lava-covered Mexican church where some teenager is performing an occultic ritual with a chicken.
> 
> They are SO much more interesting than the seamen who decry their technique.


Which begs the question, I suppose, with which mankind has struggled for centuries:

Namely, is it possible that one can live WITHOUT a blog, and still be "interesting"? Are barbecued ribs pictured on a Facebook wall likely more savory than those that are not?

Seems a bit silly to me to make such a sweeping generalization, some of the most fascinating and impressive people I've encountered while cruising are the ones no one beyond a modest circle of family and friends will ever hear of&#8230;


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## BentSailor (Nov 10, 2010)

JonEisberg said:


> Seems a bit silly to me to make such a sweeping generalization, some of the most fascinating and impressive people I've encountered while cruising are the ones no one beyond a modest circle of family and friends will ever hear of&#8230;


Without going into the debate regarding what makes a person interesting (_"is it the power in his hands, is it his quest for glory?"_  ), I can definitely second the fact the most interesting folks I've met have been through person introductions amongst a small circle of friends.

In my experience, the fact someone blogs, FaceBooks, twitters, or what-have-you has nothing to do with how interesting they are. It might be a reflection on how much attention they seek (for personal or financial gratification), but what makes a person interesting (to me) has nothing to do with their public exposure. Then again, I'm someone who could care less whatever it is the the royals, movie-stars, and other 'celebrities'happen to be getting up to in the personal lives as well -_shrug_-

(Damn it, I find I got into the debate anyway )


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

SWEET! Look who's livin' the BFS life...










bumfuzzle.com: 10-Aug-2011 our life. daily. puerto vallarta, mexico.

See the BFS Boozies on the table? A sippy cup and a Sol chaser! Now that's livin'! Heh-heh.

They are definitely breeding a new generation of big freakin' sailors!

Go the Fuzzles!!!!


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Picking up on what you and Jon were discussing earlier Smack ,

The one thing (or one of the things) I like about the Fuzzles is their'don't care what the cruising set think' attitude. 

We come at that more from an 'anti social old bustards' attitude but it amounts to the same thing. I can cope with a raft up of friends for an hour or so but the idea of rafting up overnight absolutely appals me. I'm not knocking those who like such stuff but it is not for me. I will most certainly put up with comparitively poor conditions in order to avoid the crowds. What are those poor conditions after all ? Living on a yacht, at anchor, baking you own bread and having to keep an eye on your water consumption ? Oh the pain, the hardship of having to trudge into the nearest population centre in order to do a spot of shopping every week or so, if that.

I know full well that we are very lucky to have what we have boat wise but cruising under sail is not apartment living sur la mer.

(I confess that I have had to give up reading the Fuzzle blog. I find the whole sprog thing tedious.)


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## BentSailor (Nov 10, 2010)

tdw said:


> The one thing (or one of the things) I like about the Fuzzles is their 'don't care what the cruising set think' attitude.


Quite honestly, this is something that I can fully understand. That said, I've always been someone that didn't really care what the crowd wanted, with the bruises to prove it 

Hell, I've got to be the least competitive guy in the club and I am open about it to the (mild) derision of those I respect. Thing is, I simply don't feel the need to "win on the water". I race because it is a way to sail & learn to sail whilst there is a powerboat on the water in case I stuff it up too grandly.

It did feel good to crew with a nationals placer, but I didn't need it. Like the cocoa on the top of my morning coffee - it's nice, but not why I do it 

Bringing that back to the subject, I don't think I'd be very happy with the whole potluck & raft-up night after night thing I hear some cruisers rave about. The whole idea of a boat for travelling is for me & the missus to do it together, as s couple, not as part of some new peer-group with even more social mores I have to abide by!



> (I confess that I have had to give up reading the Fuzzle blog. I find the whole sprog thing tedious.)


Sprog? I assume we're talking about kids here right - not the military recruit, dinghy, or other slightly less wholesome definition?


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

bent, do you need an ozzie-ozzie translation of English?
Wombie, it's one thing to confuse the Yanks - that's easy. When you're even confusing one of your own, that is an accomplishment.


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## BentSailor (Nov 10, 2010)

Take a quick gander at the wiktionary definition and you might see why I'd prefer to get the meaning nailed down 

You don't have to be foreign to confuse people with their terms though. _"Whipper-snapper"_ was (to me) simply a word my granddad called us and my own kids thought I was making words up when I used it recently


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

tdw said:


> Picking up on what you and Jon were discussing earlier Smack ,
> 
> The one thing (or one of the things) I like about the Fuzzles is their'don't care what the cruising set think' attitude.
> 
> ...


I'm with you TD. The whole "retiree flotilla" thing gives me the creeps...just as it did the Fuzzles. On the one hand, it's probably reassuring to always be in a group - but it would drive me crazy.

The whole idea of long term raft-ups/nets, and the social aspects that inevitably go along with that, just holds no appeal. I can't stand cliques. Want nothing to do with them (as my forum history probably illustrates).

My wife and I have just always been drawn to the adventure of travel and experiencing new people and new cultures....away from the tourist crowds. That's exactly why I like the Fuzzles so much - and probably why the older cruiser set doesn't. The Fuzzles just fly in the face of everything the retiree flotilla holds dear. BFS Proponents indeed! Heh-heh.

As for the blog, I'm still reading. They are now in Belize in their VW Bus. I still have a long way to go.


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## MikeWhy (Apr 22, 2011)

Surely there exists meaningful middle ground between those extremes. And it's unlikely that the raftees are the ones doing the online bashing, since their social circle is rubbing on their more or less permanently deployed fenders, rather than remote and vicarious. Why is it so uncool to voice disdain at the flaunting of convention that we have to invent and blame the nameless bogeyman of retirement raftees?


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

MikeWhy said:


> Surely there exists meaningful middle ground between those extremes. And it's unlikely that the raftees are the ones doing the online bashing, since their social circle is rubbing on their more or less permanently deployed fenders, rather than remote and vicarious. Why is it so uncool to voice disdain at the flaunting of convention that we have to invent and blame the nameless bogeyman of retirement raftees?


There's definitely middle ground. It's just that both ends of the spectrum don't understand the other's mentality - and the inevitable bagging happens. Coupled with that is the fact that most cruising forums have a far more flotilla-aligned viewpoint. So the general discussion tends to typically lean that way.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

MikeWhy,
Well yes, Smack could have refrained from the 'retirement raftees' moniker but lets face it, it is a very common part of the cruising scene. Look, to each his own and I've got friends who thoroughly enjoy the raft ups and beach pots luck meals. Hell, I even saw somewhere a weekly prayer meeting for cruisers. Not my speed at all and my remark re raft ups etc was simply to show that in one area at least I agree with the Fuzzle mentality.

ps - Bent ... I was using SPROG in this sense ....



> sprog
> 
> once disparaging term for a child, now often used affectionately. (Chiefly British)
> as in "I'll come by your place after I drop the sprogs at school"


not that you didn't already know this ....


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Actually, with enough alcohol and lack of taste, raft-ups can be quite fun.


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## joethecobbler (Apr 10, 2007)

WOW, I think this thread is as long as the bumfuzzle blog!!
I gotta say, I liked reading the blog mostly the sailing stuff, their perspective of the people and places.
I at 40+ years old can relate to the age difference issues and the average cruiser age thing. I even had the Florida water cops aboard questioning how I can afford to cruise !
As to the other issues raised on this thread..... and there were many. 
I kind of "get" the point chrisnate was trying to make about the condiscending (sic) attitude than seems to come from a certain core group of posters here. 
Of course I get that in day to day life alot, so I am dealing with it better some days than others, as I come to grip w/ the fact that most folks will probably never "get it" !
I do enjoy the controversy, I have to admit, it's one of the reasons I continue to read the posts. 
I cringe a bit when it esculates to attacks that seem to be an affort to elevate oneself or degrade another. But, that's par for the course when choosing to commune w/ others.
I'm rather perplexed by the experience verses ocean miles argument, I thought a circumnavigation was the ultimate "badge" one could display as per being knowledgable and revered in all things sailing. Apparently the Bumfuzzle circumnavigation method has destroyed that perception ! 
In that vein I personally have always felt frustrated when verbalizing my own dreams/plans on cruising to others and getting responses like"you can't do that" or "you need to pay your dues b-4 you can do that" it has always seemed to embolden my resolve to do just exactly it was I was told that I couldn't do !
probably just stubbornness.
I did notice or failed to notice one thing. Did they bring a life raft ? 
Also as to the safety and welfare of their children. I say , they are THEIR children not mine. but I did/do sail w/ my child and her mother since she was 2 (the child, not her mother) .
And the 10-15 years prior to us making the first long range year long cruise up and down the east coast I feel that I was influenced time and time again by many a "dockside expert" as to why I couldn't do this or that on whatever vessel I was aboard. 
looking back I feel that that was bad information and I should have just gone as I wanted and would have been fine, as well as alot happier had I done what I wanted instead of listening to others tell me why I couldn't.
So, when I hear others profess their dreams on this and other internet forums and almost immediately a core group of roughfly the same "dog pack" proceeds to rip the dream apart , it cuts me to the quick. 
As per expressing oneself in person differently than I would online. Unfortunately I don't.
Probably why I end up spending alot of quiet time alone.
Of course this is my perspective at this stage in my life and I reserve the right to re-assess my opinion as age progresses and money diminishes.
Many told me (and continue to expound) that sailing coastal or offshore in a 32' Bayliner Buccaneer from tampa to NY was suicide as well. I so far have failed to heed the warnings and have made several "laps" up and down the coast in the last 3-4 years, with my only major regret being that I didn't do it earlier in life.
Now I'm planning to do "it" some more, and STILL there are those in my small circle of influence that make comments such as "you and that Dam Boat", of course you know what that does to me...... sailing.....sailing...can't wait to go sailing.....

enjoy all your opinions,it would be boring if we all held the same ones.


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