# Opinions on these Catalina 30s



## Scandium (Mar 27, 2018)

I'm in a tentative phase of looking at boats. I like the design and reputation of the Catalina 30 so have been looking for a nice specimen, likely mk2 87-90s. If I find one in the next year maybe I'll jump on it, or maybe not.. But I figured I'd ask for some advise from more experience folks for opinions on these boats based on the ads, and maybe I'd learn something.

I'm thinking reasons to pick one over the other? Obvious warning signs? Good/bad deal for the money? Until I know more what I'd want I'm trying to stay reasonably local (near Annapolis).

--deleted some models which sold-- 
fin keel, tall rig
[MD, $25k] '88, tall rig, bimini and dodger, dinghy davits, older sails/rigging. 
https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1988/Catalina-Tall-Rig-30-3034336/

[Rock hall $18k] Cheaper, not as much equipment (does have AC though). But; same ad up 2 years ago. It's unsellable? 
https://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/71133

[NJ $33k] 95 mk3. Looks good. Some upgrades in 2012. 
https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1995/Catalina-30-MkIII-3096744/

So far these seem decent, but nothing screaming at me that I should jump on it before it's too late.. I'm thinking maybe some better deals might come up in the winter. 
Thanks.

Sept:
a nice Pearson 31-2 came up. $20k. Looks very nice
https://baltimore.craigslist.org/boa...699252511.html


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## drew1711 (May 22, 2004)

Actually, the sails and rigging were all replaced in 2010 on the cheap (third) boat. That's 10k worth of upgrades. The 2015 bimini is almost another thousand bucks. If the rest of it checks out, the boat is a really good value at this price, IMO.


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## midwesterner (Dec 14, 2015)

I have found that sailboatlistings.com often doesn't remove ads after boats are sold. I have called on a few boats that have been listed for a while and the owner was surprised to know that their ad was still up and said that they had notified that website that their boat had sold.

It was a Catalina 30 that I chartered a little over a year ago out of Marathon Florida. It was a nice sailing boat and comfortable interior.


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## Scotty C-M (Aug 14, 2013)

Some things you can't just change, the engine for one. In my opinion, the 25XP engine is a better size for the Catalina 30 than the 21. It brings the boat up to hull speed easily, and has torque for those days when you are fighting a headwind in rough weather. I notice that the first boat also has a dodger and Bimini. Very nice gear for those of us who want to get out of the spray, or out of the sun. If you are in a shallow water area, like the Gulf or Florida, the wing keel is very nice. I personally like the deeper fin, keel. You may not have the money to buy the more expensive boat, but it has a lot of upgrades that make it very attractive. Wonder how negotiable the price is?


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## Scandium (Mar 27, 2018)

Scotty C-M said:


> Some things you can't just change, the engine for one. In my opinion, the 25XP engine is a better size for the Catalina 30 than the 21. It brings the boat up to hull speed easily, and has torque for those days when you are fighting a headwind in rough weather. I notice that the first boat also has a dodger and Bimini. Very nice gear for those of us who want to get out of the spray, or out of the sun. If you are in a shallow water area, like the Gulf or Florida, the wing keel is very nice. I personally like the deeper fin, keel. You may not have the money to buy the more expensive boat, but it has a lot of upgrades that make it very attractive. Wonder how negotiable the price is?


That's a good point, thanks. Just the kind of stuff I hadn't thought of

Yes, for the chesapeake I really like the wing keel. And as you said #1 has a full dodger with sides, solar panels and few other things. Not necessary, but nice to have. Engine also have almost 1000 fewer hours than #3 boat too, and 4 years newer. No info on the rigging though.

I do think #3 is a really good value at 15k. Looks like all essentials recently replaced, and have everything you need for weekend cruising. But the smaller engine is a negative.

I do have the money for either of these, but obviously 10 grand less would always be nice.. I think either of 1 and 3 look ok for the price. I think I could be happy with either. Though I'd lean towards paying a bit more, especially considering the larger engine.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

The wing keel is a very poor choice for the Chesapeake. Wing keels are much harder to free when they run aground especially in the mud bottoms that are common on the Bay. 

Jeff


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Scandium said:


> That's a good point, thanks. Just the kind of stuff I hadn't thought of
> 
> Yes, for the chesapeake I really like the wing keel. And as you said #1 has a full dodger with sides, solar panels and few other things. Not necessary, but nice to have. Engine also have almost 1000 fewer hours than #3 boat too, and 4 years newer. No info on the rigging though.
> 
> ...


Like Jeff not a fan of the wing keel not only for the grounding issue he mentioned, but also the sailing performance and pointing ability. A 5 foot regular keel is not a deep keel on the Chesapeake at all.

Ours is five feet with a centerboard to 7+.


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## Scandium (Mar 27, 2018)

Jeff_H said:


> The wing keel is a very poor choice for the Chesapeake. Wing keels are much harder to free when they run aground especially in the mud bottoms that are common on the Bay.
> 
> Jeff


I've read this argument here before, and the rebuttals. Including from people who have wing keels. So I'm not convinced it's that big a problem, or at least not something to worry about. And with a lower draft you're less likely to run aground in the first place, so..


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

I tend to agree - I would prefer a 5ft fin keel simply for performance. Is grounding in the Chesapeake an issue? Moving bars?

All those C30's would be considered overpriced in my neck of the woods, though they are an extremely common boat in SoCal.
Standing rigging replaced 10 years ago isn't very new anymore. The first one looks like it has been maintained the best, and would be my first choice based on photos.


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## Scandium (Mar 27, 2018)

chef2sail said:


> Like Jeff not a fan of the wing keel not only for the grounding issue he mentioned, but also the sailing performance and pointing ability. A 5 foot regular keel is not a deep keel on the Chesapeake at all.
> 
> Ours is five feet with a centerboard to 7+.


From what I read my sense was on the Chesapeake the less draft the better. There are areas 1/2 mi from shore with <4 ft of water.. I'd rather not have to only stick to >6 ft areas. I'm not racing anyone so performance is pretty low on my list.


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## Scandium (Mar 27, 2018)

Lazerbrains said:


> I tend to agree - I would prefer a 5ft fin keel simply for performance. Is grounding in the Chesapeake an issue? Moving bars?
> 
> All those C30's would be considered overpriced in my neck of the woods, though they are an extremely common boat in SoCal.
> Standing rigging replaced 10 years ago isn't very new anymore. The first one looks like it has been maintained the best, and would be my first choice based on photos.


Well if I were to accept a 5' keel then there is this one I had my eye on before 
https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1988/Catalina-Tall-Rig-30-3034336/

Tall rig, 25 HP engine, bimini, dodger, AC, plotter, sail+rigging replaced (though 10+ years ago), U-sette, dinghy davits, grill, "kiddie-catcher" lifeline net. Looks like a solidly equipped boat. I just don't like that it'll drag the bottom in half the bay..


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

Scandium said:


> Looks like a solidly equipped boat. I just don't like that it'll drag the bottom in half the bay..


Well they obviously have been sailing it without "dragging the bottom of half the bay". I am sure there are plenty more boats that sail the Chessie with 5' draft - I doubt it is the problem you seem to think it is. Get a depth sounder and good chart plotter if you are worried. Sail during high tide.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

ESSENTIAL Tall rig, fin keel, recent or low hours diesel donk.

DESIRABLE Full cockpit enclosure and hatch screens for those buggy Chesapeake nights. 

There is a well known problem with pre 86 C 30s. They have wood in the base of the keel sump. There is a factory repair procedure which does not require keel removal but just digs out the wood and replaces it with fiber glass. Check to see if this has been done.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Scandium said:


> I've read this argument here before, and the rebuttals. Including from people who have wing keels. So I'm not convinced it's that big a problem, or at least not something to worry about. And with a lower draft you're less likely to run aground in the first place, so..


Its not something to worry about if you never run aground. In conversations with towboat operators here on the Bay, they tell me that there is no doubt that wing keels are much harder to free when they are grounded. This is especially true when they run aground while heeled over. The grounding issue is in part the reason that boat manufacturers have moved away from wing keels and gone to bulb keels (which are much easier to free from a grounding and which perform much better as well) even though bulb keels are a little more expensive to manufacture.

Jeff


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Scandium said:


> Well if I were to accept a 5' keel then there is this one I had my eye on before
> https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1988/Catalina-Tall-Rig-30-3034336/
> I just don't like that it'll drag the bottom in half the bay..


For the past 17 years I have been sailing on the Bay with 6-6 draft (when the tanks and lockers are fully loaded) and have touched bottom less than the number of fingers on one hand. My prior boat drew 5'-0" and there are very few places that I could go with that boat that I can't go with my current boat. The boat before that drew 4 feet and there were very few places that boat could go that neither of the later boats could not go. But the boat before that only drew 3'-6, and that boat could go a lot of places that none of the next three could go. The trouble is that no matter what kind of keel (other than a keel-centerboard) a 30 footer won't sail worth a darn with much less than 5'-0 of draft. That is not to say that there aren't folks who can easily accept some amount of compromised sailing ability.

Jeff


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## drew1711 (May 22, 2004)

I'm not a buyer of the 'shorter keel grounds less' argument because most of us will take the same risks with the shorter keel in skinnier water as we would with the deeper keel in water less skinny. I do agree you're not going where the wind is coming from in some of these contraptions.


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## Scandium (Mar 27, 2018)

Ugh, how am I supposed to pick the perfect first boat when I hear conflicting opinions on everything..? 
I've read extensive keel discussions.. It takes me a year to research and pick a TV or PC to buy. Being proportional to price, at this rate it'll be retired before I pick a boat..


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## drew1711 (May 22, 2004)

No such thing as the perfect boat. You just have to figure out what's important to you and what you can compromise on. Yeah, opinions are like noses...


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## Scandium (Mar 27, 2018)

drew1711 said:


> No such thing as the perfect boat. You just have to figure out what's important to you and what you can compromise on. Yeah, opinions are like noses...


Well, I don't know what's important until I get a boat, and I can't get a boat until I know what's important..


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## drew1711 (May 22, 2004)

Scandium said:


> Well, I don't know what's important until I get a boat, and I can't get a boat until I know what's important..


True statement!

Here is the thing. The C30 is one of the most popular production boats ever made. Notice we all agree it's a good first boat choice for Chesapeake Bay?

We're discussing keel options here. You have to make the decision. IMO and it is mine alone, a shoal keel is not worth the loss of sailing performance, UNLESS the boat is going to live in a place where it's necessary to get in and out of a marina.

You may be a gunkholer who isn't interested in sailing to weather. 'Tis up to you to figure out a workable compromise. You can do this.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

C30 tall with fin, it's damn near a perfect boat for the Chesapeake, my ODay 30 5 was foot draft, (4'11" for the spec Nazis lol) the Upper Bay is touch & go for any boat if you have three foot draft you're going to look for a 3 foot Anchorage you have 5 foot draft you're going to look for 5 foot Anchorage. Everybody learns quickly not to run aground on a falling tide. Lol 

A short rig & wing are very different boats from the tall rig boats!


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

Scandium said:


> Well, I don't know what's important until I get a boat, and I can't get a boat until I know what's important..


+

Not true! If you've sailed before, you know what you like (or at least dislike) about those boats. If you haven't sailed a lot of boats, that really should be your first step: get on as many boats as you can and pay attention to what works and what doesn't.

Just as important, figure out what kind of sailing you will be doing. Day sails? Overnights? Weekends? Weeklong cruises? Racing? Every boat is a series of compromises, usually designed to emphasize certain characteristics (and inevitably deemphasize others).

In my experience, almost regardless of the size or complexity of the boat, most people day sail their boats, with the occasional overnighter. In my mind, this means that many of them are lugging around fully functioning condos, with all the costs and headaches that entails, for no good reason.

I like the Catalina 30; I was on one once, and she sailed pretty good. Nice boat below too. But I wouldn't buy one unless I was planning on spending a good deal of time cruising.


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## Scandium (Mar 27, 2018)

mstern said:


> +
> 
> Not true! If you've sailed before, you know what you like (or at least dislike) about those boats. If you haven't sailed a lot of boats, that really should be your first step: get on as many boats as you can and pay attention to what works and what doesn't.


I haven't been on many (sail-) boats, but I also have limited/no opportunity to. Just what I take courses on, and what available for rental, which is not close in make, model or year to the ones I'm looking at. I don't have any friends who sail, and have no time or inclination to join racing crews (and I'm not looking to buy a j-boat race horse anyway..). I considered rentals viable for a while (even posted a thread on it), but am finding the available stock is not what I want to sail regarding size, vintage, features and whatever. There are a few ~30 ft cruising boats on boatsetter I plan to try out, but not a single cat30 for instance.

I'm finding that to be able to sail what I want, when I want, for however long I want I just have to bite the bullet and buy something. I should just get one of these 30s and see how it goes and figure stuff out. For my 4-person family what I really want sometime in the future is something like a cat34 with rear cabin anyway I figured the cat30 is a good, safe, mainstream first step.

I've learned quite a few new things here though, which was my goal. Thanks


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Man, I don't know how you guys can sail in the Chessie with such thin waters. I stress when I see single digits on the sounder and tack on eight (I draw six). Aren't you guys worried about shoals, humps, snags and the occasional drowned Volkswagen? Is the bottom of your Bay truly billiard table flat? I will occasionally anchor in thin water but with tidal changes of up to six feet, I plan carefully. How do you do it out there?

You take a big pointing hit with a shoal keel and IMHO the foot you may gain when anchoring certainly isn't worth it. The C30 is a wonderful boat (I sailed them a lot in my younger days). The wooden keel step issue I believe, is more of an issue on the boats built in the seventies and the keel steps were entirely redesigned in the early eighties. These are great boats and Catalina's 32 year production run (6,400+ built) is a testament to their design.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Scandium said:


> [/url]
> So far these seem decent, but nothing screaming at me t.


If it ain't screamimg at you ..... it ain't your boat !

Take a look at Marine Survey 101.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

George, the Chessie is just one huge mud puddle! it's has silt in it since the beginning of time or whenever the major rivers that feed into into it came into existence, I wonder if scientists even know how deep to silt is. And rocks? I have no idea where they begin and where they end but I've encountered nothing but mud on the upper & middle Bay.


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## contrarian (Sep 14, 2011)

I was never a fan of the Catalina 30 but it obviously ticks a lot of boxes for a lot of people. I think the 34 is a much nicer boat especially if you get the 34 with the walk through transom. That may not be much of an issue on the Chessie with coffee colored water and a mucky bottom but for a day sailor or a coastal cruiser in emerald green waters with a sandy bottom the walk through is Fantastic.
As far as the shoal keel goes I think it's an over simplification to state that a deep keel sails so much better than a shoal keel. I have sailed with some guys who could probably sail a bathtub with a sheet attached to a stick better than a lot of us. Going to weather is not everything and my shoal keel Hunter (Bulb with winglets) will do hull speed close hauled with ratty sails in 12 -14 knots of breeze. Does she make leeway while doing it ? Yes, probably a lot but unless you are racing what difference does it make? I do have to have a clean bottom to do this and the way that I clean the bottom is by intentionally grounding my wing keel boat and polishing away. Someone apparently forgot to send me the memo that said how difficult it is to get a wing keel boat floated once she's grounded. To be fair though, I have a sandy spot where I do this and grounding in the mud may be a whole different ball game. Plus my intentional grounding is soft and she rests on the bulb. My choice for the shoal draft had a lot to do with the price of slips, deeper water slips are more expensive in my location, If I had a lower air draft I could get an even cheaper slip, may not be the case on the Chessie. Either way, I wouldn't totally discount shoal draft boats. My two cents would be that if you are planning on moving up to the 34 then don't waist your time with the 30. On the other hand if financial constraints would prevent you from going with the 34 then go with the 30 and like others have said go with the one that is in the best overall condition. Especially one with a walk through transom.You won't regret it.


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## wingman10 (Sep 12, 2017)

I sail a Catalina 30 tall rig, fin keel. One of the best 30-foot boats I've sailed on, very nicely balanced and stiff in a breeze. Yes, we have bumped the bottom, but i would agree with others who have opined that a 5ft keel is really not too much for the Chesapeake.


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## Scotty C-M (Aug 14, 2013)

Contrary brings up a good point about the walk-through transom. I went to that configuration on my latest boat and I find it to be really nice, But yes, they are on the more recent models and thus you pay for it! Oh the choices. I agree with Boatpoker, the boat for you is the one that screams for you to own it! Have fun exploring your options, and let us know how the search is going!
By the way, I'm a big fan of the Catalina 30. We had one for about 10 years and it was a great boat.

By the way, by the way .. GeorgeB. What's with you Man? No thin water on the SF Bay? Hey, go down to the South Bay and say hello to the Brisbaine Shoals, or take a trip to Petaluma? Let's cut the corner going into Bezerkley. I would say to broaden your horizons, but in this case, I'd have to say thin them out!!! :grin. :2 boat:


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## wingman10 (Sep 12, 2017)

GeorgeB said:


> Man, I don't know how you guys can sail in the Chessie with such thin waters. I stress when I see single digits on the sounder and tack on eight (I draw six). Aren't you guys worried about shoals, humps, snags and the occasional drowned Volkswagen? Is the bottom of your Bay truly billiard table flat? I will occasionally anchor in thin water but with tidal changes of up to six feet, I plan carefully. How do you do it out there?
> .


George, that is the life of a Chesapeake Bay sailor--the average depth in the Chesapeake is 5ft. That's just the average, the ship channel in places is 100+ feet deep, so we're not always sailing in such thin water. But, if you want to spend the night on the hook or in one of the dozens of cool little Chesapeake Bay marinas, you're probably going to be watching the depth sounder pretty carefully.

The old saw on the Chesapeake--there are two kinds of sailors, the ones who have run aground and the ones who will.


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## wingman10 (Sep 12, 2017)

deniseO30 said:


> C30 tall with fin, it's damn near a perfect boat for the Chesapeake


yep!


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Scandium said:


> Well if I were to accept a 5' keel then there is this one I had my eye on before
> https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1988/Catalina-Tall-Rig-30-3034336/
> 
> Tall rig, 25 HP engine, bimini, dodger, AC, plotter, sail+rigging replaced (though 10+ years ago), U-sette, dinghy davits, grill, "kiddie-catcher" lifeline net. Looks like a solidly equipped boat. I just don't like that it'll drag the bottom in half the bay..


Haven't read through all the messages yet, but just to straighten out a common misconception, the 25XP motor is not 25 HP. It is 23 HP.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

FWIW, my C34MkII is wing keel. I'm generally happy with the performance, but I'm not real demanding. It seems to me that the vast majority of Catalinas on the Chesapeake are wing keels. (Other brands may be different, especially the more performance oriented ones.) At the same time, I think a fin keel will perform better and be able to access pretty much every anchorage the wing keels access. And it will un-ground more easily, by either slicing through or kedging sideways (which is not really possible with a wing).

For a Catalina I would focus on other more important factors, like condition/maintenance of the boat, dry decks, walk-through transom, no wood in the keel sump, no "Catalina smile", etc. I'd take either wing or fin - whatever is attached to the boat that's in the best condition. And even if you're not swimming in turquoise waters, the walk-through transom is great for dinghy access.

For the hot muggy nights on the Chesapeake I'd put air conditioning high on my list - then you can head to the boat anytime no matter how hot the weather and do interior maintenance/repairs (and sleeping) in comfort if it's too hot to leave the slip. It's much nicer to get a working reverse cycle unit pre-installed than to do it yourself. Of course, if you're planning to stay on a mooring ball, AC is not really viable.



Scandium said:


> ...On the other hand, #3 is so cheap why not just go for it, have fun and learn as I go? Worst thing sell it off again
> Thanks.


I will warn you against this way of thinking. The boat with the cheapest purchase price may be the most expensive boat you could own. Others will disagree with me, but there are some boats out there that are worth less than $0, and priced in hopes that someone will be foolish enough to think there's nothing to lose.


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## Scandium (Mar 27, 2018)

TakeFive said:


> FWIW, my C34MkII is wing keel. I'm generally happy with the performance, but I'm not real demanding. It seems to me that the vast majority of Catalinas on the Chesapeake are wing keels. (Other brands may be different, especially the more performance oriented ones.) At the same time, I think a fin keel will perform better and be able to access pretty much every anchorage the wing keels access. And it will un-ground more easily, by either slicing through or kedging sideways (which is not really possible with a wing).
> 
> For a Catalina I would focus on other more important factors, like condition/maintenance of the boat, dry decks, walk-through transom, no wood in the keel sump, no "Catalina smile", etc. I'd take either wing or fin - whatever is attached to the boat that's in the best condition. And even if you're not swimming in turquoise waters, the walk-through transom is great for dinghy access.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the input.

I had walk through transom high on the list, but frankly the mk3 is hard to come by, at least now. And they are of course more expensive, at least $30k+. If a good one comes up I'd take a hard look, but for now I've settled for likely a mk2 in the 20s. And like I said, in a few years when the kids are older I hope to have more skills and money to get a 34 with a walk through ($40k+). I don't really want to jump in with that kind of investment right now.

AC is obviously a plus if I can find it, and pretty much a must if I want my wife to join me  But it's hit or miss. (how much does installing one cost?)

Yes I'm aware of the risk of "cheap" boats, but this one at least didn't seem like a project boat..


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Scandium said:


> AC is obviously a plus if I can find it, and pretty much a must if I want my wife to join me  But it's hit or miss. (how much does installing one cost?)


Installation is free if you do it yourself.


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## Scandium (Mar 27, 2018)

boatpoker said:


> Installation is free if you do it yourself.


Installing (including hardware)?


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## Rocky Mountain Breeze (Mar 30, 2015)

Maybe this will help with the decision process:


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Installing is not difficult if you have average skills and think it through. 

The two advantages...cheaper ( most Chesapeake charge at least $125/ hr for labor and you know where to look should repair be necessary
Most are plug and play. 

I agree with Take5 advice....buy the best condition. You’ll have enough projects and updates

Personally I will never buy a boat with a walk through transom. I like the protection from following seas for one. It’s not really difficult to climb into a dinghy with a full Transom . I don’t object to the Tartan was of handling it. It’s a personal preference.


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## midwesterner (Dec 14, 2015)

Scandium said:


> Ugh, how am I supposed to pick the perfect first boat when I hear conflicting opinions on everything..?


Just remember that all the boats that you are considering, other people have owned, and sailed, and enjoyed. You will too.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

Scandium said:


> Ugh, how am I supposed to pick the perfect first boat when I hear conflicting opinions on everything..?
> I've read extensive keel discussions.. It takes me a year to research and pick a TV or PC to buy. Being proportional to price, at this rate it'll be retired before I pick a boat..


Jeff H is a naval architect. Not saying others here aren't worth reading but it is good to listen to a credentialed expert.


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## Scandium (Mar 27, 2018)

midwesterner said:


> Just remember that all the boats that you are considering, other people have owned, and sailed, and enjoyed. You will too.


Sure. On the other hand, you could say they don't enjoy them enough to keep them..


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Scandium said:


> Sure. On the other hand, you could say they don't enjoy them enough to keep them..


You can say anything you want, no matter how false.

IMO the vast majority of people who are selling love their boat but want a bigger one, are too old and frail to sail anymore, or realize they don't have enough time to enjoy it. The whole thing about "2nd happiest day" is an exaggeration.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Scandium said:


> Thanks for the input.
> 
> I had walk through transom high on the list, but frankly the mk3 is hard to come by, at least now. And they are of course more expensive, at least $30k+. If a good one comes up I'd take a hard look...


Take a hard look at this:

https://catalina.sailboatowners.com/classified2/adsmanager.php?task=showad&adid=20808

It's for sale by @JimMcGee who is a member here. I'm sure it's at the high end of your price range, but he says it's negotiable. I know from past communications with the guy that he is knowledgeable and takes good care of his boat. If the price is justified by exemplary maintenance, then you can just go sailing and have fun while doing normal maintenance instead of having a bunch of projects to do first (while you're still paying storage fees). Sometimes you get what you pay for (if you do your due diligence).


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## midwesterner (Dec 14, 2015)

Scandium said:


> Sure. On the other hand, you could say they don't enjoy them enough to keep them..


Well, the very prolific boat reviewer and surveyor, the late Jack Hornor, said that owner satisfaction with the Catalina 30's he surveyed were high. He said that most of the Catalina 30's he surveyed were being offered by people who were so satisfied with the build of the brand, that they were selling because they had moved up to a larger Catalina like the venerable 34.

He also said that his customers who bought wing keel boats and customers who bought fin keel boats reported the same level of satisfaction.

Here's what Jack Hornor had to say about Catalina boats in 1999:

_When it comes to affordable, family oriented sailboats no builder in the world matches Catalina Yacht's numbers. Since production of the first Catalina 22 in 1970, the company has more than 68,000 boats to its credit. *"When you consider these mind boggling numbers and Catalina reports that more than 40% of Catalina owners are on at least their third Catalina sailboat, it does't take a genius to figure out they're doing something right.* Catalina's designs target the family cruiser, and when there's an opening in this market they can be certain to provide a product to fit the need." _

So, that's the word on Catalina owner satisfaction.


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## Scandium (Mar 27, 2018)

TakeFive said:


> Take a hard look at this:
> 
> https://catalina.sailboatowners.com/classified2/adsmanager.php?task=showad&adid=20808
> 
> It's for sale by @JimMcGee who is a member here. I'm sure it's at the high end of your price range, but he says it's negotiable. I know from past communications with the guy that he is knowledgeable and takes good care of his boat. If the price is justified by exemplary maintenance, then you can just go sailing and have fun while doing normal maintenance instead of having a bunch of projects to do first (while you're still paying storage fees). Sometimes you get what you pay for (if you do your due diligence).


Thanks.
That's definitely a nice boat. As you say looks very well maintained. I'm sure it's worth the price. But even if I could get it down some, it's quite a bit more than I feel ready to pay now (by at least $8-10k..)

Yes on the one hand I'm willing to pay a bit more to avoid working on the boat and actually sail. But I also don't want to commit too much until I know better what I want, how we'll use the boat, or even if we'll be able to do it at all. Who knows, maybe my wife and/or kids will hate it. My wife is very skeptical we'll be able to sail at all with two jobs and two kids. But I'm thinking we're even less likely to if we don't have a boat!


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Scandium said:


> Thanks.
> That's definitely a nice boat. As you say looks very well maintained. I'm sure it's worth the price. But even if I could get it down some, it's quite a bit more than I feel ready to pay now (by at least $8-10k..)
> 
> Yes on the one hand I'm willing to pay a bit more to avoid working on the boat and actually sail. But I also don't want to commit too much until I know better what I want, how we'll use the boat, or even if we'll be able to do it at all. Who knows, maybe my wife and/or kids will hate it. My wife is very skeptical we'll be able to sail at all with two jobs and two kids. But I'm thinking we're even less likely to if we don't have a boat!


BTDT. Purchase price (initiation fee) and maintenance/storage (club dues) go down fast when you go smaller. I bought a 12 year old Catalina 250 that I kept 12 minutes from home on the Delaware River, daysailed with occasional weekend for 6 years, then went bigger and moved to the Chesapeake. I sold the C250 in less than a week for <$1000 less than I bought her for. Slip fees $1000 per year, winter storage $300 per year. In that 6 years my savings vs a bigger boat were huge, and I was able to test the waters without abandoning the kids.

Others would disagree, but I'm all for reducing risk by going smaller/newer, which in the end will be easier to sell.


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## Pendragon35 (Jun 26, 2014)

Jeff_H said:


> The wing keel is a very poor choice for the Chesapeake. Wing keels are much harder to free when they run aground especially in the mud bottoms that are common on the Bay.
> 
> Jeff


I was just thinking the very same thing. Everone goes aground in the Chesapeake eventually. I would think a wing keel would be harder to get offl


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

Wing VS Fin comes up a lot on this forum.

I've seen scuttlebutt and generalizations repeated as gospel that don't match my experience sailing a boat with a wing keel.

The following is specific to the Catalina 30 the original poster was asking about.

*You give up pointing and performance going with a wing.*
Umm, No. You really don't unless you're a competitive one design racer.

The theoretical performance difference between the C30 fin and C30 wing is 3 seconds per mile; or about two minutes difference in six hours of sailing.

That's significant only to one design racers. In the real world sails aren't new, halyards have stretch, you carry a lot of "stuff" on board and you're not constantly adjusting sail shape. In the real world you occasionally tweak the sails, have conversations with guests and some of us (ahem) won't have perfect form when we tack.

So there is no real world performance difference. This may not be true of all brands/models with wing keels, bu Gerry Douglas did a good job keeping things equal on the C30.

*Wing Keels are harder to get off if you go aground*
I have a lot of respect for Jeff, but his anecdotal evidence doesn't match my ten years of experience sailing a wing in the VERY shallow waters of Barnegat Bay, where going aground at some point is pretty much guaranteed. If you release your sheets quickly, fire up the motor and take your time easing her off I haven't had a problem.

*The wing keel exposes your rudder in a grounding*
I can't speak for other models but on the C30 the rudder is shorter than the keel (at least on my 1995).

*Advantages*
Obviously being able to sail and anchor in shallower waters.

But another positive is that she sits 16 inches lower when on the hard. That may not sound like much until you hit the end of a long day doing maintenance and there's three less rungs you have to climb to get back on the boat with 50 year old knees. Even less than that if you have an open transom.


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## Tuna Driver (Sep 17, 2011)

The C30 is a great boat. I've been racing on one, OPB, for 10 years now and it just keeps on being a joy. If you want to cruise with the least fuss, get a good survey! Balancing initial cost vs spending money to work on the boat will be easier if you know what you are getting into. We owned an E35 for a while and learned what we did and didn't want to do. We sold it for a small loss, but the lessons were priceless. Have your wife take a look at the boat. I suspect her instincts and feelings will make a significant difference to your ownership experience. And don't worry about the horsepower. We motor sailed 400 miles up the California coast with just 11 HP. What's your hurry? It's a sailboat.


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## Scandium (Mar 27, 2018)

Thanks to everyone chiming in. 
This mk 3 is from a member here and also a nice option on the upper end of my budget, but might be worth it..? Also bit further from me so more commitment to check out. 
https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1995/Catalina-30-MkIII-3096744/
1995, $33k, NJ

Bimini etc, running rig (and sails?) is ~6 years old. Looks good with lots of maintenance listed, even if 2012 is a while ago now.. Not tall rig, but is wing keel (which I now don't know if should be a plus or minus..  ) But looks like a really nice boat, mk 3 at a great price!


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## Scandium (Mar 27, 2018)

Or how about hits 87 tall rig, wing keel for $28,000? That is a bit high, but it sounds well equipped. 
https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/279427979530330/
Lots of new electronics, sails 4 years old. Dodger, bimini, no AC. From the photos at least everything fabric/canvas looks in very nice condition.
Bit of a drive to check out, but not as bad as others.


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

I have to wonder what happened to the bimini and dodger? In the (presumably older) pics they are shown while it is sitting in the water. In the photos of it on the hard, they are gone. I have found that often for some reason people use very old photos in ads for a boat and the current condition can be drastically different.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

I respectfully disagree with the premise that the wing keel doesn't affect a Catalina's pointing ability. I have first hand knowledge that a wing keel [on a Catalina 34] has at least a ten-degree broader tacking angle than a standard fin keeled boat. I raced one-design against a wing keeled boat that was set up exactly like mine (down to the same folding prop and Pentax genoa). Side by side in a beat my boat was noticeably faster and pointed higher. They would have to fall off five-degrees from my heading in order for them to reach their peak VMG. The PHRF regression formula for a standard C34 and a shoal draft is 144 vs. 165. This difference is the result of an extra 600# of ballast and a 1'8" shorter keel. Granted, I'm probably more performance oriented than the average "cruiser", but the shoal keel is going to require extra tacking going to windward. This could be an issue tacking up a narrow channel or clawing off a lee shore.


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## Scandium (Mar 27, 2018)

Lazerbrains said:


> I have to wonder what happened to the bimini and dodger? In the (presumably older) pics they are shown while it is sitting in the water. In the photos of it on the hard, they are gone. I have found that often for some reason people use very old photos in ads for a boat and the current condition can be drastically different.


On the 88 in chesapeake city? Yeah i noticed that too. Definitely need to figure out the condition and how long it's been sitting. I talked to a broker on a different boat and he told me photos were 3 years old and it had sat since :S. Broker actually told me it's in bad shape and forget it, lol.


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

I think you are over analyzing this a bit. Yes, you want to get the best boat for the least money, but in reality, once you eliminate the junk and the overpriced ones, you are left with a number of decent boats, anyone of which would probably serve you just fine. Chances are if you end up liking sailing, it will not be your last boat. Buy something and go sailing.


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## Scandium (Mar 27, 2018)

Hm, why wouldn't I just get a late 80s cat 34 for $34-38k instead? Though the extra $10k stings a bit
(since there's 4 of us, and kids will only get bigger.. And hope to bring 2-3 guests)

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1987/Catalina-34-3189694/Deale/MD/United-States
https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/19...g/MD/United-States?refSource=standard listing

If I got a 30 I imagine I'd want to "size up" after maybe 3 years? But what are the transnational costs of doing that, vs paying more for a 34 right away (and extra annual costs ofc)..


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Scandium said:


> Hm, why wouldn't I just get a late 80s cat 34 for $34-38k instead? Though the extra $10k stings a bit
> (since there's 4 of us, and kids will only get bigger.. And hope to bring 2-3 guests)
> 
> https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1987/Catalina-34-3189694/Deale/MD/United-States
> ...


You should not base your analysis on purchase cost alone. That's just the initiation fee to "join the club." Your "annual dues" are significantly higher when the boat is bigger - slip, winter storage, bottom paint, etc.

Either boat would be fine for 6 to 7 people on a daysail. Neither boat would be sufficient for 6 to 7 people on a cruise.

It all depends on how you plan to use the boat, and how much you're willing to pay to facilitate that type of use.


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## Statesman15 (Mar 24, 2018)

Scandium said:


> Or how about hits 87 tall rig, wing keel for $28,000? That is a bit high, but it sounds well equipped.
> 
> Lots of new electronics, sails 4 years old. Dodger, bimini, no AC. From the photos at least everything fabric/canvas looks in very nice condition.
> Bit of a drive to check out, but not as bad as others.


Sailnet made me get rid of the link, but I kept as much of the original post...

FWIW, this boat is in my Marina, and I wandered over to take a look at it. Boat looks pristine and organized. It sits right next to a Catalina 34, I'll see if I can snag a photo of the two for a quick snapshot comparison. 
I got talking to a guy on the dock with a 36 and says he loves his Catalina. 
I'm partial to Catalina 30s as it was the first "big" boat I ever sailed. But I can't speak much to the $$ you want to spend and then continue to put into the boat.

Not sure if this helps, but just wanted to throw my opinion out there.


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## Scandium (Mar 27, 2018)

Statesman15 said:


> Sailnet made me get rid of the link, but I kept as much of the original post...
> 
> FWIW, this boat is in my Marina, and I wandered over to take a look at it. Boat looks pristine and organized. It sits right next to a Catalina 34, I'll see if I can snag a photo of the two for a quick snapshot comparison.
> I got talking to a guy on the dock with a 36 and says he loves his Catalina.
> ...


awesome, thanks! I does look nice from the photos. Don't worry too much about it though. Going through this and thinking about it I'm pretty sure I won't make a move until next spring/summer. At which point most of these will probably be gone  In fact at least one in my OP appears to be sold now.


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## Scandium (Mar 27, 2018)

TakeFive said:


> You should not base your analysis on purchase cost alone. That's just the initiation fee to "join the club." Your "annual dues" are significantly higher when the boat is bigger - slip, winter storage, bottom paint, etc.
> 
> *Either boat would be fine for 6 to 7 people on a daysail. Neither boat would be sufficient for 6 to 7 people on a cruise.*
> 
> It all depends on how you plan to use the boat, and how much you're willing to pay to facilitate that type of use.


That's a good point. For my situation (day-weekend sails) the 34 would add comfort, but not increase utility (at least in terms of # people). Yeah I keep getting tempted by how nice the 34 looks, but I'm probably better of starting with a 30 (have even considered a 27). Looks like a good size/compromise for a family our size, yet not too expensive.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

For my first boat I looked at 25 all the way to 36 feet. I decided that because of our kids we would mostly daysail, so I bought a C250 in perfect condition. We kept it on the Delaware River 12 minutes from our house to make midweek daysailing possible. Slip fees were $873 per year (due to smaller size and cheaper location). After six years the kids were older and we had figured out how we wanted to use our next boat. Our current 34 footer is in the Chesapeake Bay. Slip fees about $4000 per year. In those 6 years we saved almost $19,000 in slip fees vs the larger boat, without even counting the difference in maintenance and other costs. This is why I always advise to buy the smallest boat that meets your needs. Carrying costs for a larger boat means you almost never save money by getting a boat you won’t fully utilize for several years.


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

Scandium said:


> That's a good point. For my situation (day-weekend sails) the 34 would add comfort, but not increase utility (at least in terms of # people). Yeah I keep getting tempted by how nice the 34 looks, but I'm probably better of starting with a 30 (have even considered a 27). Looks like a good size/compromise for a family our size, yet not too expensive.


There is something called 5 foot-itis. A boat owner wants a boat 5 feet bigger. Each 5 feet gets you more boat and more expenses. Especially with Catalina.

A 27 footer might get you standing headroom
A 27 footer might get you standing headroom in the separate head
A 34 footer might get you a separate cabin for guests

I consider a 30 footer a minimum for more than a night or two with the wife, and a 34 footer with a door between cabins a minimum for overnight with guests no matter how much I like them.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Buying your last boat first will save you a not so small fortune.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Scandium said:


> awesome, thanks! I does look nice from the photos. Don't worry too much about it though. Going through this and thinking about it I'm pretty sure I won't make a move until next spring/summer. At which point most of these will probably be gone  In fact at least one in my OP appears to be sold now.


Have you actually looked at any boats in person yet? Looking at pictures isn't enough. Even if you're waiting until spring to buy, you should start shopping now to gain experience and acquire some skill at sniffing out the deceptive listings.

Most of the boats you see will still be available in the spring. Only the good ones will be gone.


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## Scandium (Mar 27, 2018)

boatpoker said:


> Buying your last boat first will save you a not so small fortune.


What is this "last boat" thing you speak of?? I've never heard of such a thing. *confused*


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## Scotty C-M (Aug 14, 2013)

Your last boat. That's the thing you bought just before the one you own now.

.................................. :2 boat:


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

GeorgeB said:


> I respectfully disagree with the premise that the wing keel doesn't affect a Catalina's pointing ability. I have first hand knowledge that a wing keel [on a Catalina 34] has at least a ten-degree broader tacking angle than a standard fin keeled boat. I raced one-design against a wing keeled boat that was set up exactly like mine (down to the same folding prop and Pentax genoa). Side by side in a beat my boat was noticeably faster and pointed higher. They would have to fall off five-degrees from my heading in order for them to reach their peak VMG. The PHRF regression formula for a standard C34 and a shoal draft is 144 vs. 165. This difference is the result of an extra 600# of ballast and a 1'8" shorter keel. Granted, I'm probably more performance oriented than the average "cruiser", but the shoal keel is going to require extra tacking going to windward. This could be an issue tacking up a narrow channel or clawing off a lee shore.


Hey George, I never said the wing didn't effect pointing ability. I just said that in the real world of cruising boats with 20+ year old gear, the performance difference among C30's was so close that's it shouldn't be a deciding factor -- unless you plan to race (as I know you do).

I try to be careful to say that I'm only talking about the C30 as I don't have any first hand experience with the 34's and 36's where the difference may be more significant.

I'm firmly in the cruising crowd where a couple of seconds per mile doesn't make much difference "hold off tacking until Kathy's done making the sandwiches" 

And for some reason I always seem to be sailing skinny water - first Barnegat Bay and now the Florida Keys. So for me draft is critical.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

BTW, a couple of posts in this thread mentioned my boat being for sale. 

She's now sold and I'm boatless - at least until the house is done. 

I'm actually thinking about down sizing back to a day sailer, maybe something like a Capri 18. No muss, no fuss sailing - at least until the bigger boat bug bites again.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

Just to add my late opinion: fin keel, no AC (but we hate AC). We've happily survived on the Chesapeake with our C30.


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## Scandium (Mar 27, 2018)

Donna_F said:


> Just to add my late opinion: fin keel, no AC (but we hate AC). We've happily survived on the Chesapeake with our C30.


Thanks. 
I've definitely put AC way down the list. If it's there sure, but not something I'll out of the way to get.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Scandium said:


> Thanks.
> I've definitely put AC way down the list. If it's there sure, but not something I'll out of the way to get.


Everyone's different, so that's fine. But make sure your family gets input into this one. Otherwise you might find yourself heading to the boat alone a lot. It's nice having my wife always willing to come with me because I can promise her that if it's too hot we'll stay in the slip and I'll just do maintenance.


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## Scandium (Mar 27, 2018)

TakeFive said:


> Everyone's different, so that's fine. But make sure your family gets input into this one. Otherwise you might find yourself heading to the boat alone a lot. It's nice having my wife always willing to come with me because I can promise her that if it's too hot we'll stay in the slip and I'll just do maintenance.


Obviously. My wife likes AC..

My reasoning is: 
- It only works on shore power. Which, starting out with shorter day sails and less/no overnight for a while won't be the focus and a smaller part of the use.
- Stuff that enhance the sailing/on water experience is more important
- I'd rather retrofit an AC, or get a stand-alone unit later, than get a boat without other upgrades or features which are more immediately useful. E.g bimini, tall-rig, clean boat etc. Again, comes down to the use.

But if it's there I won't say no of course.


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## Scandium (Mar 27, 2018)

Breaking the title of the thread, but does anyone have opinions on this O'Day 322?
https://m.sailboatlistings.com/view/70650
$20k, and decent equipment. I'm just not sure about the brand/model. I've read a bit about them, and seems ok. Yes I know of the keel falling off stories, but that seems overblown. Other thing is that it has a "ledge"/seat in front of the companion way, which looks like a PIA. But I need to try it to be sure.

Still leaning cat 30,but this one is local and might be worth checking out. Price has been lowered at least once


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

322 is a great boat stout & Roomy. 
It may be the weird angle of the camera, but this particular boat seems to be missing it's keel! The wing Keel on that boat is pretty hard to miss it's 52" in wide


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

Is that a separate aft cabin? If so that and the stern platform makes it look like a really big 32 footer. I have been on an Olson 34 with a similar layout. I really like it for a boat in that size range.


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

If the pictures are to be believed it looks well-kept. I like the sugar scoop transom.

Have to admit, I'm not the biggest fan of O-day build quality.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Lazerbrains said:


> If the pictures are to be believed it looks well-kept. I like the sugar scoop transom.
> 
> Have to admit, I'm not the biggest fan of O-day build quality.


It was built by Pearson because it was the end of O'Day


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## Scandium (Mar 27, 2018)

deniseO30 said:


> It was built by Pearson because it was the end of O'Day


Yes I have some reservations about the QC of the O'days compared to Catalina, from what I've read (restricting, sale, nearing bankruptcy etc). Often it's just the bias of someone who owns one over the other, but might be some truth to it too. I like the separate aft cabin, and the swim platform, but like I said not a fan of the cockpit layout or the quality reputations.. There are no fewer than three o'day 322s for sale within an hour of me so maybe I should check some out, but I'd be more comfortable with the conservative choice; the cat 30.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Well maybe someday you'll actually buy a boat. Catalina 30s through 36 are pretty nice boats there is not much to dislike about them at all. Add to that the parts, support, and owner network are well established


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## Scandium (Mar 27, 2018)

Statesman15 said:


> Sailnet made me get rid of the link, but I kept as much of the original post...
> 
> FWIW, this boat is in my Marina, and I wandered over to take a look at it. Boat looks pristine and organized. It sits right next to a Catalina 34, I'll see if I can snag a photo of the two for a quick snapshot comparison.
> I got talking to a guy on the dock with a 36 and says he loves his Catalina.
> ...


Looks like it sold already! Bummer, since I'm going up to the area next month and was hoping to check it out  As someone said earlier; just the good ones will be sold.


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## Scandium (Mar 27, 2018)

deniseO30 said:


> *Well maybe someday you'll actually buy a boat. * Catalina 30s through 36 are pretty nice boats there is not much to dislike about them at all. Add to that the parts, support, and owner network are well established


Maybe... I expect another year of waffling about though. Took me longer than that, and a huge spreadsheet, to decide on our last car. Hell, buying a new phone took me 6 months.. I find the ease with which some people make large purchase decisions baffling.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

you remind me of one of my friends, going to a restaurant he insistson having a conversation with the server, at the end of the conversation he always gets something that wasn't even talked about. 
I wish you well on your shopping Journeys I'm unsubscribing at this point


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## Scandium (Mar 27, 2018)

deniseO30 said:


> you remind me of one of my friends, going to a restaurant he insistson having a conversation with the server, at the end of the conversation he always gets something that wasn't even talked about.
> I wish you well on your shopping Journeys I'm unsubscribing at this point


Uhm, ok? I never really talk to restaurant servers about anything other than ordering.. I'm sorry if asking for opinions in my own forum thread offended you. Good luck.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Not offended! I was trying to be funny, obviously it went right over your head! 
Good luck!


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## Scandium (Mar 27, 2018)

deniseO30 said:


> Not offended! I was trying to be funny, obviously it went right over your head!
> Good luck!


yeah sure, I got that it was funny I'm not getting closer to buying a boat. And that other things are brought up. Not sure I think the friend nagging the waiter applies, but ok.


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

Don't worry about how long it takes. Boat shopping can take months. Watch how many times you show up where the boat looked great in the photos - but real life not so much. Kinda like Tinder pics. LOL

The only way to find the right one is to keep going out and seeing the ones for sale - when you find the right one, you will know it.


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

Scandium said:


> Yes I have some reservations about the QC of the O'days compared to Catalina, from what I've read (restricting, sale, nearing bankruptcy etc).


I looked at a lot of Odays and Catalinas before I bought my Oday, and I've been on a bunch of each since. Not the models you are looking at, but several different years/models nonetheless. My conclusion: there is no consistent, appreciable difference in build quality between the two manufacturers. Some things were designed better on one or the other, but the build quality issues I've seen on both seem to stem from their similar "value pricing" philosophies. We ain't talking Hinckley or even Island Packet here. Catalina and Oday were the "Chevys" of the sailboat world in the '70's and '80's, designed and built to a price point that was meant to be affordable. That will impact on materials, fit and finish.

That all being said, I think Catalina built over 6000 Catalina 30's (that's not including the MKII and MkIII), while Oday built a few hundred 322's. That's a lot more practice and lot more opportunities to get it right.


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## Scandium (Mar 27, 2018)

mstern said:


> I looked at a lot of Odays and Catalinas before I bought my Oday, and I've been on a bunch of each since. Not the models you are looking at, but several different years/models nonetheless. My conclusion: there is no consistent, appreciable difference in build quality between the two manufacturers. Some things were designed better on one or the other, but the build quality issues I've seen on both seem to stem from their similar "value pricing" philosophies. We ain't talking Hinckley or even Island Packet here. Catalina and Oday were the "Chevys" of the sailboat world in the '70's and '80's, designed and built to a price point that was meant to be affordable. That will impact on materials, fit and finish.
> 
> That all being said, I think Catalina built over 6000 Catalina 30's (that's not including the MKII and MkIII), while Oday built a few hundred 322's. That's a lot more practice and lot more opportunities to get it right.


Thanks for the input! All good points


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## SV Siren (Mar 8, 2013)

The nice thing about hunting for a Cat. 30 is that if you bide your time and get picky about condition vs price, you can get a really well kept one at a good price, you might just have to look for a while. There are so many of them around that they are always coming up on the market, especially in the fall up north as many people would rather sell at the end of the season. Prices will be cheaper than say in the spring just before the season starts due to the fact they don't want to pay all the fees for haulout, and storage and such. 


When we were looking at a Cat. 30 four years ago, we looked at about 12 of them before finding one that was in great shape, at a bargain price. The PO as a fisherman who bought it to putter around on, and never really used it much, and his wife put her foot down and told him to get rid of it. It was clean, and well kept and hardly used. The only complaint about it is that the original fabric which is butt ugly by todays standards is in too good of condition to replace.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

An approach for anyone looking for a smallish production boat is to look for clubs. In our Catalina club they sold their boats amongst themselves first unless another member couldn't be found who was ready to buy. So if someone wanted to move up or down in size, they looked inward first. In my generic sailing club they do the same thing. It might be worth it to contact a club and ask if anyone has one for sale.


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## Scandium (Mar 27, 2018)

SV Siren said:


> . Prices will be cheaper than say in the spring just before the season starts due to the fact they don't want to pay all the fees for haulout, and storage and such. .


Yes, but at the same time I don't really want to pay for those things either ;D Ideally I'd prefer to buy a boat that's on the water and ready in April - may some time.. But realize they're more expensive then. For my first boat I'd rather start with sailing, then maintenance/upkeep, not the other way around.


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## Scandium (Mar 27, 2018)

Seeing if this is still alive..

A nice looking Pearson 31-2 for sale for relatively cheap close by me. Will try to go take a look at it soon. Any opinions? Reason to get this over a cat 30, or vice versa?
https://baltimore.craigslist.org/boa/d/1987-pearson-31-2-sailboat-in/6699252511.html

- cockpit and interior layout is a bit different, but each has pro/cons, no clear winner IMO. 
- No bimini? Expensive must-have. 
- But also ~$5k less than the cat 30 I've looked at

(can you convert the settee in the P31 to a double berth?)


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

Wow. If those are recent, accurate pictures, that boat is mint. IMHO, when discussing boats of this size and vintage, unless there is a specific design feature that is a must-have (or have-not), it is best to go with the boat that is in the best condition. For me, that translates into a dry deck and hull, reliable engine, good sails. Everything else is fixable or workable. Major problems with one of the big three means that fixing the problem is likely not cost-effective.


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## Scandium (Mar 27, 2018)

mstern said:


> Wow. If those are recent, accurate pictures, that boat is mint. IMHO, when discussing boats of this size and vintage, unless there is a specific design feature that is a must-have (or have-not), it is best to go with the boat that is in the best condition. For me, that translates into a dry deck and hull, reliable engine, good sails. Everything else is fixable or workable. Major problems with one of the big three means that fixing the problem is likely not cost-effective.


Yes it does look very nice, and so clean. Doesn't have everything, but decent equipment and very good price. I agree, as long as the layout etc isn't totally stupid I'm mostly looking at the condition. Even shoddy sails is ok, as long as the price is right replacing those isn't the biggest deal (though of course expensive).

Hopefully I can take a look at it in the next few weeks, and it doesn't sell in the meantime.. Couple boats in my list have been for sale since april (who look fine in photos at least), another was gone in <3 weeks.

Supposedly i was just looking now, and not planning to buy anything till maybe mid-summer next year (and maybe that's even a bit early). So I don't want to rush it, but on the other hand I'm finding that really nice looking boats are rare and disappear fast. So maybe jumping on a good, clean one (if it is as good as it looks ofc) isn't totally stupid..? It would be a bit annoying to send it straight to winter storage 2 weeks after getting it, but not the worst. That extra $1k is worth it over just finding lemons for sale during the summer.. But who knows, maybe it just looks good in the photos and is a soggy mess in person. That would save me from agonizing over it.

edit: Question might take care of itself. Contacted seller asking to see it and he said several people are interested. So it'll probably be gone before I can even check it out. Oh well.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

We tend to look at the big things when looking at used boats. That's understandable because the big things cost big money.

But given a choice I will ALWAYS lean toward a boat that was loved by its owner versus one that was neglected. 

All those little things that are neglected by most owners are the things that bite you in the backside later on and take up hours of your time when you should be out sailing. 

It's absolutely worth paying extra for a boat that has been maintained and upgraded responsibly versus the boat that looks a little rough. You'll find ugly surprises and half assed patches hidden inside the rough boat.

And if she has really suspect wiring patches and "upgrades" just say thank you and walk away.


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## Gaudrx3 (Sep 18, 2018)

My wife and I own an airplane. It’s the same as a boat. Rentals are two flavors, around the patch or too expensive. The only way to figure out what works is to read, read, visit, think, talk then dive in.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Gaudrx3 said:


> My wife and I own an airplane. It's the same as a boat. Rentals are two flavors, around the patch or too expensive...


I'm not sure I understand your comment about rentals. A lot depends on what size boat you want and where you want to sail. But if you're in 30+ foot territory in the vast majority of the Chesapeake Bay or other high cost of living areas, it is virtually always less expensive to charter than own. The all-in costs of dockage and maintenance can easily pay for a couple of weeks of charters each year. Unless you are going to spend more than 15 full days on your boat, the economics strongly favor chartering.

The reasons to own a boat are largely non-economic: It's always available if you want to go out on impulse, you can bring pets on it without violating charter rules, you can go wherever you want without charter restrictions, you'll get to know its quirks inside and out, you'll have pride of ownership, you'll be constantly fixing things on your own boat instead of fixing someone else's or blowing a few hours waiting for the charter company to come fix it.

Most of us here choose to own. But it's not a good economic decision. We love owning boats -- we must, because there is no logical explanation for it.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

TakeFive said:


> ...
> 
> Most of us here choose to own. But it's not a good economic decision. We love owning boats -- we must, because there is no logical explanation for it.


I've settled on "Because I wanna" as explanation enough.

TakeFive is right about all of it.


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## Scandium (Mar 27, 2018)

TakeFive said:


> I'm not sure I understand your comment about rentals. A lot depends on what size boat you want and where you want to sail. But if you're in 30+ foot territory in the vast majority of the Chesapeake Bay or other high cost of living areas, it is virtually always less expensive to charter than own. The all-in costs of dockage and maintenance can easily pay for a couple of weeks of charters each year. Unless you are going to spend more than 15 full days on your boat, the economics strongly favor chartering.
> 
> The reasons to own a boat are largely non-economic: It's always available if you want to go out on impulse, you can bring pets on it without violating charter rules, you can go wherever you want without charter restrictions, you'll get to know its quirks inside and out, you'll have pride of ownership, you'll be constantly fixing things on your own boat instead of fixing someone else's or blowing a few hours waiting for the charter company to come fix it.
> 
> Most of us here choose to own. But it's not a good economic decision. We love owning boats -- we must, because there is no logical explanation for it.


No definitely, financially it doesn't make much sense. But I'm finding chartering to be a bit of a PIA too. The flexibility of owning a boat is worth a lot. Tried to charter a boat recently, but weather forecast was bad so had to move it (though it turned out not too bad). Then it was also looked iffy for our new day, and was close to the cancellation window so decided to cancel to be safe (still costing a 10% fee). When the day arrived it was pretty nice, so we could have gone out! But then it was too late. Now I plan to charter in a week, but will have to trust long-term forecast, play the game of minimum booking windows and availability, and check cancellation policies. And to use a 30 year old boat pay $500+, which is the same whether that's 2 hours on the water or 24..

The choice of boats is also pretty limited. Mostly a handful around 30 ft from the early 80s. Most are 60-90 min away (when there are many marinas <30 min from my house). Next step up are fancy boats from 2010 or newer, which will cost $1200+ for a weekend, and don't do one day rentals. The price for what you get is fine and fair, but makes it difficult to do short trips to get the kids and wife used to it. (yes you can rent tiny daysailers for less, but I have two small kids so not an option yet)

All this makes sailing a serious, full day and financial commitment that must be optimized to get full value, and planned out way in advance and hope for good weather that day. Not the way I'd like to do it, but the way it will be for now.


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## Gaudrx3 (Sep 18, 2018)

I think you’re correct. My only point is that there is no economic justification. I don’t rent because I don’t like all the rules and schedules. But I don’t know how to put a dollar value on that. I do know that if I do a cost breakdown I end up saying my per hour cost is too high, I should rent. But, there’s an intrinsic value in being an owner. I can outfit, modify and personalize to my hearts content. I don’t think you really know your boat, airplane, tractor, house, etc. until you’re an owner. In the end someone posted this as the best reason and I have to agree: “because I want to”.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

Gaudrx3 said:


> My only point is that there is no economic justification.


60-65 hours a week I live by budgets and spreadsheets but I've never kept track of what I spend on the boat. I don't want to know and don't want to think about it that way because the time with the boat gets me through the other 60 hours.

Being on the water relaxes me in a way nothing else seems to do.

What price do you put on quality of life?


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## Scandium (Mar 27, 2018)

Gaudrx3 said:


> I think you're correct. My only point is that there is no economic justification. I don't rent because I don't like all the rules and schedules. But I don't know how to put a dollar value on that. I do know that if I do a cost breakdown I end up saying my per hour cost is too high, I should rent. But, there's an intrinsic value in being an owner. I can outfit, modify and personalize to my hearts content. I don't think you really know your boat, airplane, tractor, house, etc. until you're an owner. In the end someone posted this as the best reason and I have to agree: "because I want to".


Yeah, there are many non-finacial reasons to own, but they are all pretty good Unfortunately my wife isn't quite convinced by this and think I should at least wait some, year or more. She's mostly right though.

To view the bright side I suppose I save money in the mean time. (To eventually get a bigger boat..). And there's a geographic advantage; I can drive an hour north, or 60 or 90 min south and charter boats. Giving me a a lot of different places to go even for day sails. Places that would take a whole day+ to sail to if I had my boat in the "middle". I can also charter a 26 ft boat, or a 38 ft one, depending on what we're doing or who's coming. 
Still won't keep me off yachtworld though..


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