# Used Bluewater boat recommendation?



## nemier (Jul 9, 2005)

Here's my wish list so far.

- small, simple and strong. (28' - 35')
- built & intended for bluewater, distance cruising.
- tiller steering
- cutter rig preferred, but not essential (sloop = less is more?)
- as fast as possible
- wide decks, allowing uninterrupted passage to pulpit
- full keel
- minimal electronics, or minimal electronics originally designed for the boat.
- designed for singlehanding
- material not important (open mind right now)
- must have a shower (for the Admiral)
...thats just about it for now.

Ladies, Gents & esteemed Sailnetters, can you help me?
Do you know of any vessels that fit this criteria?
Want to spend $25,000 - could spend $75,000 for the right boat.
Looking forward to hear your ideas.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Tough set of parameters..... a Westsail 32 might fit your needs and your budget - not sure if they all had showers on board... once you're in the warmer zones the good old solar shower bags do the trick in any case....


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## rikhall (Feb 7, 2008)

What about a Contessa? I have never been on a 32 - been on a 26 thought. This quote is inspiring:

"Designed by one-time army tank designer, David Sadler, the 32-foot bluewater cruiser-racer has long been regarded as a tough and seaworthy vessel that inspires confidence in the heaviest of seas. In fact, it was the only one of 58 boats in its class to finish the disastrous 1979 Fastnet race."


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## thesnort (Jun 2, 2007)

Baba 30 or 35 in rough condition.
oops! Sorry, tiller might be difficult...


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

Could you give us some info about how/where you plan to use the boat?

Also, could you tell us why you require a full keel?

Some of the older Pacific Seacraft might work for your upper price range -- like a VERY early Crealock 34 or Crealock 37 (early-mid-80's, in need of retrofit). But they would have a cruising fin keel with skeg-hung rudder (identical to the profile at the bottom of my post).


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## jrd22 (Nov 14, 2000)

Cape George 36, might have trouble finding one in the price range, but I have seen them come up on Yachtworld.

Good luck with your search, John


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## Sapperwhite (Oct 21, 2006)

On the lower end of your length needs, you just described my boat. Ok Ok, I'm 27' LOD, 30'11" LOA.


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## nemier (Jul 9, 2005)

Guys - thanks!, I very much appreciate your thoughts. Looks like I was on the right track. Here's my thinking so far.

FASTER - I looked at the Westsail, initial thoughts - just a little too salty for me, cramped cockpit, fussy interior.

RIKHAL - the Contesa has got my attention and I will look closer at this.

THESNORT - see Westsails comments, must have tiller too. The Westsail, Baba, Lord Nelson, and Hans Chrisitian all seem similar

JOHNRPOLLARD - more info supplied with pleasure. The vessel will be sailed by myself with my wife along for the ride. She'll be able to take the tiller while I tend to things but otherwise this boat will be singlehanded. I'll be leaving from Vancouver, BC and intend on distance cruising (Yes, a circumnavigation - God willing) My thoughts about the full keel are that I'll be able to take to a grid and dry out for maintenance work as the opportunity allows. I also think it may provide better protection against grounding but perhaps I'm wrong, please let me know otherwise because it's certainly limiting my search. The PSC are on my list, there is a couple in Seattle I may look at. the 31 has tiller, the 34 has wheel. I prefer the 34 but the wheel is a deal breaker. One more thing about the fin feel. I was out buddy-boating a few years ago and my buddy found a reef and ended up forcing his keel right through the bottom of the boat! in came the water, the drama that ensued after reads life a fiction novel...it kind of scarred me...

JRD22 - Now you are talking. I have fallen in love with these boats and have one shortlisted but it's $100,000 more than I hoped to spend. I could buy the boat tomorrow, but then I'd have to work a few more years to pay it off. The cheap boat criteria was made so I could get away sooner. Also a few of the CG's are home completed and look it! Such a shame there.

SAPPERWHITE - very nice boat you have. how do you like the PSC? You can PM me about it or post here if you like. I'm interested to learn more about them.


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## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

Just curious why a wheel is a deal breaker?


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

nemier said:


> JOHNRPOLLARD - more info supplied with pleasure. The vessel will be sailed by myself with my wife along for the ride. She'll be able to take the tiller while I tend to things but otherwise this boat will be singlehanded. I'll be leaving from Vancouver, BC and intend on distance cruising (Yes, a circumnavigation - God willing) My thoughts about the full keel are that I'll be able to take to a grid and dry out for maintenance work as the opportunity allows. I also think it may provide better protection against grounding but perhaps I'm wrong, please let me know otherwise because it's certainly limiting my search. The PSC are on my list, there is a couple in Seattle I may look at. the 31 has tiller, the 34 has wheel. I prefer the 34 but the wheel is a deal breaker. One more thing about the fin feel. I was out buddy-boating a few years ago and my buddy found a reef and ended up forcing his keel right through the bottom of the boat! in came the water, the drama that ensued after reads life a fiction novel...it kind of scarred me...


Nemier,

The majority of PSC Crealock 31s, 34s, and 37s came with a wheel. But perhaps 15-25% of them were tiller equipped. So if you watch long enough you should be able to see examples of both steering methods in any of those models.

The full keel issue is a bit more complicated. I recently wrote this in another thread: "Full-keeled boats have some desirable attributes, but they are not the be-all-end all when it comes to seaworthiness, motion comfort, or absolute safety. Many of the leading off-shore/bluewater boat brands do not use full-keeled underbodies, but instead use fin keels with skeg-hung rudders, some even use robust spade rudders. So as you continue your search, remember that "salty" does not by definition mean full-keeled."

If you are concerned because your friend's fin-keeler took a beating -- remember there are different kinds of fin-keels, and different kinds of construction. I would expect the cruising fin keel on our PSC 31 to withstand every bit the beating that a full keeler would. Perhaps more -- since the lead ballast is external. A full keeler on a reef will be crushing the fibreglass that encapsulates the ballast. A solid skeg can protect the rudder as well.

There are some often unrecognized dangers of grounding with a full keeler. Not too long ago, I read an account of a sailor that ran his full keeler up onto a granite ledge. He bumped and scraped along it, but then got free. Unfortunately, the gouge that was torn in the keel extended past the ballast and into the hollow bilge area. He now had a massive gaping hole about four feet below the waterline. Fortunately he was close enough to shore that the CG could get pumps to him, otherwise the boat would have sunk very quickly (he nearly lost it in the event). The damage was so extensive that the insurance company totalled the boat.

If that had been a fin keeler with external ballast, he likely would not have suffered nearly as much damage. Just something to think about...


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## kwaltersmi (Aug 14, 2006)

Below is my list of preferred bluewater boats, minus several that you already said you aren't interested in. There's probably plenty left that also won't do much for you, since I seem to prefer salty boats. Many have showers, but few have shower stalls. Many can be had with a tiller, though it is more likely to find most with a wheel. In any case, here's the list:

Cabo Rico Tiburon 36
Pacific Seacraft /27/31 (Mariah)
Southern Cross 28/31/35
Island Packet 27/29/31
Hallberg-Rassy Rasmus 35
Valiant 32
Cheoy Lee Luders 36
Allied Princess 36
Allied Seawind 30
True North 34
Willard 8 Ton World Cruiser
Nor Sea 27
Fantasia 35
Union 36
Bayfield 29/32/36
Cape Dory 32/36
Shannon 28
Pan Oceanic 36
Tayana 37
Hardin Sea Wolf 41/CT 41/ Island Trader 41/Yankee Clipper 41/Sea Tiger 41/Transworld 41
Hinterhoeller Niagra 35
Dreadnought 32
Vancouver 27
Vineyard Vixen 34
Alajuela 33
Island Trader 37
Liberty 28
Islander Freeport 41
Yankee 30
Ingrid 38
Alajuela 33/38
Sea Sprite 30/28/27


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

*Contessa and Niagara*

Both the Contessa 32 and Niagara 35 have long cruising fin keels and they work just fine for extended cruising. All Niagara 35s have wheels though. Many Contessa 32s in Canada were sold for home completion so quality will vary. Also headroom on the C32s I have been on is limited - about 6' along the centerline.

You are very unlikely to get a dedicated shower stall on a boat in this size range. If a boat does not have a shower, it is not too hard to rig one in most heads.

I had a Niagara 35 for several years and had it offshore to Bermuda (4 1/2 days which is pretty good for a boat that sized) and can certainly recommend it to you. You could get one in your price range.


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## jrd22 (Nov 14, 2000)

I knew the Cape George might be a bit pricey. How about the Bayfield 36, I think they all have wheels though. My son has an offer in on one in NC right now.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

midlifesailor said:


> Just curious why a wheel is a deal breaker?


On a boat that size, a wheel both restricts movement in a bluewater cockpit (which tends to be quite small for draining purposes and to free up quarterberth and locker space below). A tiller is mechanically simpler, and the absence of a quadrant, cables, sheaves again frees up space. The tiller also keeps the deck watch close to the traveller and the winches, and can be raised to vertical in port or at anchor to maximize what cockpit space there is. On a small bluewater cruiser, the cockpit is frequently "the workshop" when the boat is at rest, as you can set up a folding workbench in there and sand or cut happily without getting sawdust or F/G bits or metal shards in the bilges. Also, a complete tiller replacement is easily stowed and quickly repairable even on a small boat.

Finally, given that 95% of offshore steering is done by autopilot or windvane (I suspect the latter in this type of boat and voyage plan), all the steering elements of line, sheaves, tiller attachment, etc. are visible and totally accessible. This means any kinks, chafe or wear issues can be addressed immediately, as the deck watch on a bluewater cruiser tends to look at the self-steering gear at the beginning and end of each four-hour watch, first to assess course-correction needs and second to see if there's undue strain on any part of the gear.

I have two hydraulic wheels on my 41' steel cutter and will happily use the autopilot under power. But under sail, I will switch to my windvane (already installed) and a tiller, with the hydraulics on bypass. All the (admittedly few) real-world tests of autopilot versus windvane rate them equal in all but a few points of sail, in which the windvane doesn't fare quite as well. But this must be set against a power cost of zero amps! That's why the prudent voyager should have both, because very few people manually steer in blue water. Coastal and port approach, yes. Storms, yes. Suspected reefs or shallows, yes. But open ocean? Not unless you have to!


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

killarney_sailor said:


> I had a Niagara 35 for several years and had it offshore to Bermuda (4 1/2 days which is pretty good for a boat that sized) and can certainly recommend it to you. You could get one in your price range.


Good friends of mine just went south in their Niagara 35 (_not_ the Encore model, but the "traditional" one, which is a $60-85K boat). They've locked down to New York City already and are heading for Christmas in the Bahamas.

New York, New York! | Silverheels III


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## Delirious (Dec 16, 2001)

killarney_sailor said:


> You are very unlikely to get a dedicated shower stall on a boat in this size range. If a boat does not have a shower, it is not too hard to rig one in most heads.


I cannot recommend highly enough the simple SunShower (original & MkII). We have two of the 2-1/2 gallon size. Each is enough for two showers. It protects your valuable fresh water (you can pre-fill or use rain water), requires only a sump if used inside the boat or scupper if used in the cockpit. If you have only used potable water they are also an emergency source of freshwater.

Cheap & foolproof. We use ours in preference to the handheld even in the slip. Thread the nozzle through the head hatch & have at it.

Thay go from $15 for a Stearns 2-1/2 gallon SunShower II up to $40 for the larger or fancier types.

Seattle Sports Camp Shower - 2.5 Gallon at REI.com

Have you considered the Pearson Triton (28'), Bristol 27 and Alberg 30? All proven trans-Atlantic cruisers with cut-away (overhangs) full keels.


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## jorapazu (Feb 12, 2006)

Camper and Nicholson 35


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## nemier (Jul 9, 2005)

MIDLIFESAILOR - 10 years ago, a tiller would have been a deal breaker. I'm a bit of a nut-bar, no doubt about that. My poor wife! My last two sailboats were both wheels and I thought nothing of it. Tillers looked odd to me and I wanted no part of them. Now I have a 50' powerboat, 1000HP, power up the yin-yang, I turn on the blender just to too exercise my battery banks. It's 110% pure luxury. But somewhere along this Nirvana trip I really, truly, missed sailing! Something was scraping my soul to get back to sailing, wind-on-my-face feeling. I'm feeling I need to get back to basics. I want to keep it oh so simple. I want a small simple sailboat, no electronics, just the pure essence of sailing AND I want to feel the water passing past the tiller. I want manipulate the vessel with feel like only a tiller gives you. Please believe me, this is a 180 degree switch for me, but hey, I know what I want. However, this isn't my first rodeo and I understand boats are a compromise. If the right boat comes along and it just happens to have everything I want apart from a tiller, I will exercise the option to take it, accept it as is. Sailboats with wheels need loving too I guess. So to sum up, I want a tiller for no better reason than to live my dream. It's just a personal choice, no other reason at all.

JOHNRPOLLARD - Thank you for view and I actually agree with you. What you're saying is bang-on, thanks. I'm going to re-assess that PSC 31 I saw. Have you ever took to the 'hard' on your keel alone? (tied to posts) I can vision that I'll want to do that some time in the future. These freaking boats are such a COMPROMISE, just like women. Pros & Cons all over the place.


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## nemier (Jul 9, 2005)

So to sum up, I want a tiller for no better reason than to live my dream. It's just a personal choice, no other reason at all.

.....No other reason apart from what VALIENTE says. (i was secretly thinking that


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## nemier (Jul 9, 2005)

KWALTERSMI - where did you get that list? It's superb! This will keep me out of trouble for a few days, thanks.

My short list so far is, Cape George 31, PSC 31 & 34, Shannon 28, NorWest 33.

I've been looking (Yachtworld) for approx. 3 hours each day for the last 3 weeks and enjoying every second of it. I will post what I eventually decide on.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

nemier said:


> JOHNRPOLLARD - Thank you for view and I actually agree with you. What you're saying is bang-on, thanks. I'm going to re-assess that PSC 31 I saw. Have you ever took to the 'hard' on your keel alone? (tied to posts) I can vision that I'll want to do that some time in the future....


Nemier,

I've never careened our boat, nor even tied alongside a pier and let the tide go out. But every time we have the boat hauled out, it gets propped up on its keel. Jackstands are used for balance, but all the weight rests on the keel. So there's absolutely no reason you couldn't do that alongside a pier in an area with a large tidal range.

God luck with your search!


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## sailordave (Jun 26, 2001)

Valiente said:


> Good friends of mine just went south in their Niagara 35 (_not_ the Encore model, but the "traditional" one, which is a $60-85K boat).


I sailed three different Niagara 35's. Liked the design, BUT the damn things Hobbyhorsed like you wouldn't believe. I NEVER have gotten sick on the Bay, but I came darn close on that boat more than once. Just not a pleasant motion to it.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

I don't know about that element, but I know they've been pretty careful to keep weight out of the ends. They sleep in the quarterberth and the V-berth is filled with light gear/sails and so on.

Again, there's bluewater and then there's bluewater. 30 feet is minimal for reasons of stowage and tankage over any distance, but if you're talking the Caribbean, it's doable, I suppose. Basically, I think of a boat as a big locker for stuff the boat needs to work (spares, sails, line, ground tackle, fuel, engine, tools); and stuff the crew needs (bunks, food stowage, water tankage, head).

What's left over is the saloon... Most 35 footers have more saloon than I do, but I have a forepeak workshop space and seven-foot headroom...and less distance to fall in a knock-down (an issue, along with vanishing stability in beamy boats, puts me off the 14 foot wide current models).

I would add the Ontario 32 to your list...several of them have gone oceanic, although they are again pretty Spartan by today's standards, they have a LOT of space to put stuff and they sail efficiently for their era.

http://www.cncphotoalbum.com/designs/ontario32.htm

Ontario 32 - Used Sailboat Market in Canada

Veleda IV World Cruise


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## sander06 (Sep 18, 2003)

Just an FYI to the world... the Fantasia 35 sucks ... even the designer thinks so!


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