# Build Quality: Ericson, Pearson, Sabre, Tartan



## Grand River Raider

Looking for people's thoughts on build quality between Ericson, Pearson, Sabre and Tartan. From reviews I've read, it appears that Sabre and Tartan are often considered a superior boat builder, while Ericson and Pearson were respectable and solid boat builders although perhaps a cut below the Sabre and Tartan. Thoughts? Maybe throw in Catalinas and Hunters too since they are popular boats.

Also, looking for comments on the specifics of "build quality" and how this matters on a practical level, as it seems that plenty of people are happy with their boats that are from the supposedly more average "build quality" boat builders.

GRR


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## tempest

I don't know too much about the Ericson's. 

Pearsons, at least the ones I've sailed on are very solid boats...I don't know if I'd put them a cut below Tartan Or Sabre....from a construction perspective..some may argue that they were a cut above....

I would place Catalinas and Hunters in a different category..but very popular and suitable boats for most of today's coastal sailors....in the end it comes down to what you are looking for from a boat

Intended use, sailing grounds, depth, accomodations, budget etc etc.


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## kd3pc

there are many aspects to your question, that have been debated and worse. Are you comparing "older" boats of the same vintage...or new Tartan/Sabre to older Ericson and Pearson?

As a former Sabre owner, and current Hunter owner, I can give you quite a bit on both. Sabre is definitely a step up in quality, but would you see it day sailing or overniting? Is Sabre perfect, not by a long shot...my boat suffered from the mast step issue..it was a mid 80's boat, and you would think it would have been solved in subsequent years...wasn't.

New Tartans have had some build issues (you may have to look elsewhere for that debate, as the former owners flew hot and threatened a lot of folks) and the "newest" owners are building again, but the jury is out.

Are the same vintage boats the same, I would say that the Tartan and Sabre of the 80's were better built than the Ericson and Pearson, but they were all built heavy in that time of similar materials and quality.

You would need to let us know what your goals for the boat are to better answer. If you have questions on Sabre 38 or Hunter 42 or Beneteau 36CC, I can help you with real answers, as I have owned/own them.

All the best


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## Grand River Raider

Tempest said:


> I don't know too much about the Ericson's.
> 
> Pearsons, at least the ones I've sailed on are very solid boats...I don't know if I'd put them a cut below Tartan Or Sabre....from a construction perspective..some may argue that they were a cut above....
> 
> I would place Catalinas and Hunters in a different category..but very popular and suitable boats for most of today's coastal sailors....in the end it comes down to what you are looking for from a boat
> 
> Intended use, sailing grounds, depth, accomodations, budget etc etc.


Your point about the Pearsons is a good one. What about the Catalinas and Hunters lands them in a different category?

The boat would be used mostly for daysailing and weekend cruising on Lake Erie, but would also like the versatility to take a longer cruise up to Georgian Bay or the North Channel, so I'm thinking some sort of shallow draft capability would be important. Budget is 35-45K, so mostly looking at 1980's vintage boats.

Appreciate your input.

GRR


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## Grand River Raider

kd3pc said:


> there are many aspects to your question, that have been debated and worse. Are you comparing "older" boats of the same vintage...or new Tartan/Sabre to older Ericson and Pearson?
> 
> As a former Sabre owner, and current Hunter owner, I can give you quite a bit on both. Sabre is definitely a step up in quality, but would you see it day sailing or overniting? Is Sabre perfect, not by a long shot...my boat suffered from the mast step issue..it was a mid 80's boat, and you would think it would have been solved in subsequent years...wasn't.
> 
> New Tartans have had some build issues (you may have to look elsewhere for that debate, as the former owners flew hot and threatened a lot of folks) and the "newest" owners are building again, but the jury is out.
> 
> Are the same vintage boats the same, I would say that the Tartan and Sabre of the 80's were better built than the Ericson and Pearson, but they were all built heavy in that time of similar materials and quality.
> 
> You would need to let us know what your goals for the boat are to better answer. If you have questions on Sabre 38 or Hunter 42 or Beneteau 36CC, I can help you with real answers, as I have owned/own them.
> 
> All the best


You're right, a lot of different points of discussion. I'll clarify.

I'm looking for a boat to spend weekends on and daysail on Lake Erie with the versatility to go for a longer cruise up to Georgian Bay/North Channel. So, I'm looking for comfortable space/accomodations, stability to handle Lake Erie's quick temper, and I'm guessing shallow draft capability (a centerboard perhaps?) to have the versatility to explore North Channel. I'm guessing that most days on Lake Erie the shallow draft won't matter, but I don't want to be limited in where I can take her. A bit of speed wouldn't be so bad either. I'm looking mostly at 1980's-early 1990's vintage boats because budget is 35-45k, so I'm not really trying to compare newer Tartans and Sabres. Still waffling back and forth about boat length too, but I really don't want to buy and sell several boats, so I'm leaning toward getting a larger (i.e., 34-36, rather than 30-31) to start. Just did ASA 101,103, and 104 on a 43' boat, so that helped me feel that a 34 was manageable to start. I will also probably be single-handing it a fair bit.

I've been looking mostly in the 33-36 foot range including Tartan 34-2, Pearson 34, Sabre 34 and 36 and Ericson 35-III.

Thanks for your response.

GRR


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## kd3pc

GRR

either vintage Sabre or Tartan would do you fine for the things you describe. The Sabre 38 that I had before this boat was as close to perfect boat for those types of things as you could want. Some folks even RACE them, (sorry Mark - had to add that) like my former slipmate.

The 38 had a centerboard and was quite useful here on Chesapeake Bay, and never once felt unstable or tender in all kinds of weather.

Very comfortable below, with great live aboard space without compromising sailing ability. If I had it to do over, I would have kept her, as the extra few feet and the aft queen of the hunter are nice...but not at the expense of the quality and speed of the Sabre.

I crewed on Tartans of that era and they too, are well built, speedy and comfortable. Below decks a different style perhaps, than the Sabre. Either would be at the top of my list.

Others will give you more on Ericsons and Pearsons, I have only crewed on them a very few times, and do not have experience to really have an opinion. I do know that the Ericson kept up with the Tartans for the most part.

All the best, and enjoy the Georgian Bay, IMHO, it is likely one of the prettiest places on the planet, but can be a handful when the wind kicks up.


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## Grand River Raider

kd3pc,

Thanks for your advice. It reinforces what I have read elsewhere. While a 38is probably a little bigger boat than I want at this point, I will definitely take a close look at the Sabre 34 and 36. My guess is that I can't go too wrong with any of these builders unless the particular boat I choose was not cared for. I'm still trying to grasp the concept of "build quality" and the differences between the various builders.

From the pictures I've seen, the Georgian Bay/North Channel area looks pristine. That will be a trip for future after many day sails and weekenders on Lake Erie for experience.

BTW, I was just out for a visit to the Cheseapeake Bay area on a boat shopping trip (Annapolis, Georgetown) and it is a beautiful area. I may be making a return trip in the near future for round 2 of boat shopping.

Thanks again,

GRR


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## T37Chef

Try to find that 1% boat in a size you will be comfortable with. 

Your budget should include anywhere between 10-20% for outfitting, repairs, upgrades, etc. 

There are lots of great boats on the market in your price range, don't rush and find that boat that is just right for you. I don't think you would go wrong with any of the ones you're looking at if its been well cared for 

Check out a Tartan 34C.


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## Grand River Raider

T37Chef said:


> Try to find that 1% boat in a size you will be comfortable with.
> 
> Your budget should include anywhere between 10-20% for outfitting, repairs, upgrades, etc.
> 
> There are lots of great boats on the market in your price range, don't rush and find that boat that is just right for you. I don't think you would go wrong with any of the ones you're looking at if its been well cared for
> 
> Check out a Tartan 34C.


TChef,

Good points to consider. Just out of curiosity, why the T34C? Earlier in my search, I did like a number of the 34C's for their classic good looks. But then I got input from several places that the Atomic 4 engines likely need replacing and I'm not really interested in buying a new engine right away. I guess I also became enamored with the more spacious wide beams of the newer boats. I'm not looking for a houseboat with sails, but it is hard not to like the extra space. I really like the T37 by the way, but only found one that is close to my price range and it is still a stretch.

GRR


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## blt2ski

A lot of boats to a degree were more heavily built if you will back in the 80s vs today. I can compare my 85 jeanneau to a current one, there ARE some differences. I have seen similar in Bene's also. Hunter might be the only one that seemed to have some issues with 80's builds IIRC. There was a decade that they were not too good!

Otherwise, frankly, look at the maintenance of the boat vs brand. Not that it has been mentioned, but after 20-30 yrs, you will find some badly built Hunters that will be better overall than a GREATLY built swan of that vintage.....assuming you look hard enough!

Reality is, ANY of the major producton built brands from that era will be good. Try to figure out boat style and type vs brand. Ericson has some race/cruisers, and some that were just plain cruisers! The latter would not be a first choice for me and how I sail. But I know of a fellow across puget sound that luvs his E30Cruiser! He wrote and had published a review int he most recent issue of Cruising World. He also writes for GOB too. I personally look for race/crusiers. 

I would also not look too bad on A4's, they seem to be good motors for what they were designed and intended to do etc.

Marty


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## Grand River Raider

blt2ski said:


> Otherwise, frankly, look at the maintenance of the boat vs brand. Not that it has been mentioned, but after 20-30 yrs, you will find some badly built Hunters that will be better overall than a GREATLY built swan of that vintage.....assuming you look hard enough!
> 
> Reality is, ANY of the major producton built brands from that era will be good. Try to figure out boat style and type vs brand. Ericson has some race/cruisers, and some that were just plain cruisers! The latter would not be a first choice for me and how I sail. But I know of a fellow across puget sound that luvs his E30Cruiser! He wrote and had published a review int he most recent issue of Cruising World. He also writes for GOB too. I personally look for race/crusiers.
> 
> I would also not look too bad on A4's, they seem to be good motors for what they were designed and intended to do etc.
> 
> Marty


Marty,

Thanks. I think I'm getting some consensus that all of these buiders make a solid product and that the maintenance history and sailing characteristics for my particular needs will be more important. There are probably lemons and gems in the production line for any builder.

I'm with you...I think I would prefer a racer/cruiser.

GRR


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## Sabreman

> Some folks even RACE them, (sorry Mark - had to add that) like my former slipmate.


But race them well?? I'm working on that.



> ANY of the major producton built brands from that era will be good.


True. I've owned 2 Sabres and worked for two Catalina dealers so I know the brands well. The reality is that the boats listed have sold thousands and are perfectly fine for the 99.99% of conditions that we experience. The crew tends to give up far sooner than the boat. Two weeks ago, we sailed Gov Cup upwind in 22 kts (sustained) and 2' seas for 20 hours. Palmetto Moon (C36) endured the same conditions and arrived just as safely as us, but later 

Find the boat that suits your pocketbook and tickles your fancy, then buy it. They're all good. BTW, Sabre 38's of mid 80's vintage in good conditions are about $40k higher than the budget listed. Not sure what a 34 would go for.


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## Grand River Raider

Sabreman said:


> Find the boat that suits your pocketbook and tickles your fancy, then buy it. They're all good. BTW, Sabre 38's of mid 80's vintage in good conditions are about $40k higher than the budget listed. Not sure what a 34 would go for.


Sabreman,

Yep, 38's are above the range and probably a little more boat than I want at this point. Several 34's on the market within my price range, but all have the deeper draft from what I've seen so would have to wait for a Sabre 34.

Most importantly, I just want to find a well-cared for older boat that has no major build issues. Looks like I'll have plenty of solid choices.

Thanks,

GRR


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## T37Chef

Grand River Raider said:


> Sabreman,
> 
> Most importantly, I just want to find a well-cared for older boat that has no major build issues. Looks like I'll have plenty of solid choices.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> GRR


Your headed in the right direction


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## mikel1

GRR: As an Ericson owner call me biased... BUT as I have read Ericson was more an Oldsmobile in a Chevy market.... they were a little to high quality to compete price wise. Bruce King the designer was very well respected, a lot of attention to detail, just look at the interiors etc. Browse around at ericsonyachts.org ask questions, Martin King, (Bruce Kings son) is active there and knows all about design and build features. A 27 ,my boat, for a long time held the record between S.F. and Japan. They are beautiful high quality boats.


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## Grand River Raider

mikel1 said:


> GRR: As an Ericson owner call me biased... BUT as I have read Ericson was more an Oldsmobile in a Chevy market.... they were a little to high quality to compete price wise. Bruce King the designer was very well respected, a lot of attention to detail, just look at the interiors etc. Browse around at ericsonyachts.org ask questions, Martin King, (Bruce Kings son) is active there and knows all about design and build features. A 27 ,my boat, for a long time held the record between S.F. and Japan. They are beautiful high quality boats.


Mikel1,

Appreciate the input on Ericson and I will check out the owner's website. Now if I can just get a Pearson advocate to chime in we'll have come full circle on this thread. 

One of the things that turned me on to the 35-III was its reputation for having a bit of speed. I think the PHRF for New England for the shoal version of this boat is 132. Also, I read the comment of a previous 35-3 owner on another site saying that the boat is very fast for what it is. It would be nice to have a cruiser with some speed. And she is a good looking boat to boot.

I have a friend/colleague who had an old Ericson 27 a number of years ago. Only went out on it once and I don't remember a great deal about it. He was always fixing one thing or another on it, but I think that was a matter of it simply being an old boat. Nothing major that I can recall.

GRR


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## Grand River Raider

T37Chef said:


> Your headed in the right direction


Good to know the compass is working.


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## puddinlegs

All the boats mentioned would be absolutely fine, and as others have said and said well, at 20-30 years old, maintenance by previous owners is the whole show. Pearson is easily on this list, and maybe a few C&C's and even J-boats should be as well.


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## Grand River Raider

puddinlegs said:


> All the boats mentioned would be absolutely fine, and as others have said and said well, at 20-30 years old, maintenance by previous owners is the whole show. Pearson is easily on this list, and maybe a few C&C's and even J-boats should be as well.


Puddinlegs,

Thanks for the feedback. I don't know much about J-boats. I thought they were racers that sacrificed a lot of stability for speed. I will have to research them more. Thanks.

GRR


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## blt2ski

J's might very well fit your need. IIRC the 35 or 35c would make good cruisers. Even the 37/37c. The c at the end just means IIRC that they have a bit nicer interior. along with it is easier to find a shoal draft version. The C versions will be a bit more money. Good old boat about a year or so ago did an article on a 32 ie July/August 2010. I could probably scan that review. The other boat is a Jeanneau Arcadia. an attalia is simalar, but about 2' longer, and a different designer. Then a sunshine 36/38 is a longer version, same designer as teh Arcadia. Sailing mag also has many reviews of some older boats too.

CS from that era also have a nice boat too. A dock/yc mate bought a 36 merlin last summer. Nice boat, look up Dejonda on here, along with mitempo? sp? has a CS 30, also Castro designs like the Arcadia, and sunshine boats.

Marty


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## bljones

GRR, why shop in Annapolis?

A well-maintained, Great Lakes sailed, Catalina, Hunter, Beneteau, or Ericson or Sabre would be better value than an East Coast saltwater-sailed Sabre. The boats may the same age, but the lake boat will have half as much usage, no hurricane exposure, annual haul-outs, less UV damage, no saltwater exposure, and will be about the same price, or less.


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## mgraham49

*Pearson 10m*

Someone should speak up for the
Pearsons. I have owned the same Pearson 10m (10 meter, 32.8 feet I think) since 1975. Hard to believe I bought it when I was 25, and was working on it this morning at age 61.

We have raced, cruised, raised children and grandchildren on it. It has been sturdy and virtually indestructible.

It has been a great sailing boat, still outpointing and quicker than many newer boats. It is moderate displacement at 12,000 pounds, fin keel, skeg hung rudder.

The early 10m (serial number less than 100) had a chainplate issue which was resolved in the post #100 boats, AMD could be fixed in the earlier boats.

I mention all of this because the late 70s and early 80s pearsons were built more heavily than the ericsons. I love the lines of the ericsons, and their trademark black mast, but I would rather be on my Pearson in an
Open Ocean blow.

Prices are way down on the 10m. I have a theory that any boat that cannot be immediately identified by the name as to size doesn't have as good a resale. Tartan 10s are an example, but a very different boat.

Hope this helps.

Mike


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## T37Chef

I dont think anyone said Pearson are not great boats?


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## Grand River Raider

bljones said:


> GRR, why shop in Annapolis?
> 
> A well-maintained, Great Lakes sailed, Catalina, Hunter, Beneteau, or Ericson or Sabre would be better value than an East Coast saltwater-sailed Sabre. The boats may the same age, but the lake boat will have half as much usage, no hurricane exposure, annual haul-outs, less UV damage, no saltwater exposure, and will be about the same price, or less.


bljones,

Initially, I was looking primarily at Tartan 34-2 and 33 and there were few of them in my price range for sale here in the Great Lakes believe it or not. More of the Tartan 34C, which has beautiful exterior lines, but a rather spartan interior. And I was not really considering those other builders at first, but after I got on board a 1985 Pearson 34 that I really liked (save for the deep draft), I started looking more broadly at other builders. Those concerns that you mentioned are very real and certainly it would be easier to get a boat closer to home. If I can find "the one" (if such a boat exists) in the Great Lakes, I'll be thrilled.

GRR


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## Grand River Raider

blt2ski said:


> J's might very well fit your need. IIRC the 35 or 35c would make good cruisers. Even the 37/37c. The c at the end just means IIRC that they have a bit nicer interior. along with it is easier to find a shoal draft version. The C versions will be a bit more money. Good old boat about a year or so ago did an article on a 32 ie July/August 2010. I could probably scan that review. The other boat is a Jeanneau Arcadia. an attalia is simalar, but about 2' longer, and a different designer. Then a sunshine 36/38 is a longer version, same designer as teh Arcadia. Sailing mag also has many reviews of some older boats too.
> 
> CS from that era also have a nice boat too. A dock/yc mate bought a 36 merlin last summer. Nice boat, look up Dejonda on here, along with mitempo? sp? has a CS 30, also Castro designs like the Arcadia, and sunshine boats.
> 
> Marty


My horizons are expanding even further. You have given me a number of new boats to consider. I'll have to do some more research. Thanks Marty.


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## blt2ski

HERE is the Arcadia review. There are only about 20 in the states. The attalia which is considered a 32' boat is very similar as mentioned, but much more findable, as is the Sunshine. ALL three models have fin and CB versions. Sundream, Sun light are some newer versions of these. Older jeanneau's are worth taking a peak at.

For me if you look at a Beneteau, look at some of the first series versions. These are nice interior wise, but have some speed and are ment to be raced then cruised, or cruised very fast. Most unfortunately for you, will be deeper keels. I have not heard that shoal keels are needed as much on the GL's as they are on the east coast in salt water. I would not personally rule one out if you can. If frieghters are moving about on the lakes with 15-20' drafts, a 5-7' draft sailboat should not have issues! or to me, at least no more than a 3-5' draft one! But that is coming from someone that sails in 300-600+ feet of water here in Puget Sound, shoal draft boats are a liability to sell vs deep draft boats!

As mentioned by the fellow with the Pearson, they are good boats. I know another fellow that has had one for many years, and know who sold it to him. 20 yrs tween them and it is still moving. BUT< the recent owner mentioned yesterday he has an offer or is close to do so on a C310! I think that one will be a bit nicer for him and spouse since they are close to retiring!

I would also suggest a boat if possible with in your budget newer than about 82, you will not have the pinched transoms from the late 70's IOR heyday. WHile upwind great boats, down wind, they can get tricky. That is a me personal opinion...not that it is worth much.

Marty


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## mgraham49

When did blistering stop being an issue? I know that it had something to do with the resins and glass, and have the sense that it isn't much of an issue on newer boats, but to what extent is blistering an issue in 80s boats?


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## Grand River Raider

blt2ski said:


> HERE is the Arcadia review. There are only about 20 in the states. The attalia which is considered a 32' boat is very similar as mentioned, but much more findable, as is the Sunshine. ALL three models have fin and CB versions. Sundream, Sun light are some newer versions of these. Older jeanneau's are worth taking a peak at.
> 
> Thanks for scanning this review. I did a quick scan of yachtworld and could not find any in my range. I did find some J-boats and CS. I think I like a more traditional looking boat rather than the sleek, more contemporary look of these boats.
> 
> For me if you look at a Beneteau, look at some of the first series versions. These are nice interior wise, but have some speed and are ment to be raced then cruised, or cruised very fast. Most unfortunately for you, will be deeper keels. I have not heard that shoal keels are needed as much on the GL's as they are on the east coast in salt water. I would not personally rule one out if you can. If frieghters are moving about on the lakes with 15-20' drafts, a 5-7' draft sailboat should not have issues! or to me, at least no more than a 3-5' draft one! But that is coming from someone that sails in 300-600+ feet of water here in Puget Sound, shoal draft boats are a liability to sell vs deep draft boats!
> 
> Yes, I have been considering how much the draft matters for where I will sail. Most of the time the shallow draft won't matter as I will be day sailing and weekending on Lake Erie, but I would like the versatility to take a longer cruise up to Georgian Bay/North Channel. I'm not sure, but I'm guessing a shallow draft would be needed in this case. If not, the shallow draft is not that important.
> 
> As mentioned by the fellow with the Pearson, they are good boats. I know another fellow that has had one for many years, and know who sold it to him. 20 yrs tween them and it is still moving. BUT< the recent owner mentioned yesterday he has an offer or is close to do so on a C310! I think that one will be a bit nicer for him and spouse since they are close to retiring!
> 
> Yes, I'm liking the Pearsons a good deal.
> 
> I would also suggest a boat if possible with in your budget newer than about 82, you will not have the pinched transoms from the late 70's IOR heyday. WHile upwind great boats, down wind, they can get tricky. That is a me personal opinion...not that it is worth much.
> 
> Marty


Help me out Marty..."a pinched transom?"


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## Grand River Raider

Marty,

Well, I have managed to put my response into the quote of your last post. I'm still getting the hang of this site. I suppose I needed to hit the multi-quote button at the bottom to respond to different segments of your post individually?

GRR


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## Grand River Raider

mgraham49 said:


> It has been a great sailing boat, still outpointing and quicker than many newer boats. It is moderate displacement at 12,000 pounds, fin keel, skeg hung rudder.
> 
> I mention all of this because the late 70s and early 80s pearsons were built more heavily than the ericsons. I love the lines of the ericsons, and their trademark black mast, but I would rather be on my Pearson in an
> Open Ocean blow.
> 
> Mike


Mike,

It sounds like you have had a great experience with your Pearson to say the least. Wonderful that your boat has been so durable.

I'm wondering what you think about the 1970's and early 80's Pearsons versus that Pearsons made closer to the time the company closed. I've considered looking at some of the late 1980's and early 1990's Pearson 31-2.

Thanks,

GRR


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## Grand River Raider

*Not sure about the shallow draft*

Marty,

In case this point got lost as I managed to embed it in your quote from a previous post, I've been debating how important a shallow draft is for me. Most days it probably won't be important as I will daysail and weekend on Lake Erie. There are some islands near by for weekending, so it could be an issue there. I also want to have the versatility to take a longer cruise up to the Georgian Bay/North Channel and I'm thinking a shallow draft would likey be needed there.

GRR


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## manhattan08

Always consider the boats that are still in production. There is a reason why Hunter and Catalina are still being built today while some of the others are not. Also, you will get better customer service from a manufacturer that is still around today versus one that went out 20 years ago.


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## blt2ski

Something to think about, While Pearson 'quit" selling there own brands, they STILL MAKE boats per say. IE J-boats, Aleron Express to name a couple of brands they subcontract too.

Pinched stern.....need to find some pics. but the Ericson depending upon the year may very well have on. If you can find a pic of a San Juan 24, this is the hull form in which I speak of. Others have it. If you can get on a bit less pinched, ie like the Jeanneau in the review above. Most J's do not have the pinched stern. A friends P29 or 30 has a bit of one........

Major blistering was late 70's to early 80's IIRC, more from N American built boats vs European. This was as much to do with the fuel crises at the time.

ALso, the ones that went BK in the 80's, frankly not that I should get political, BUT at least in the US, the feds put a rather large tax on boats of X size or larger or maybe it was price, pretty much killled, and many stayed killed the ability of boat manufactures here in the states. It was not due to bad running of the manufactures. Altho some, ie the ones Bangar Punta bought, this may be the running body screwing them up, ie Ranger, Oday, cal, to name three in NA< and they owned Jeanneau too, but the French government found a local to buy the assets, keep it running, 10 yrs later Group beneteau bought the company..... Even thos Jeanneau still exists, they have gone thru SOO many variations of different sizes, that finding parts for my boat in the review is pretty much a "i'm on my own" I would suspect that of even some other still currently manufactures boats frankly! Then again, there are very few items I need direct from Jeanneau, so I do not worry personally about factory assistance.

Marty


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## Sabreman

GRR,
I think that you're beginning to experience what I was when we were looking for our latest boat. Even though we'd owned a Sabre 28 for 15 years, I was scanning the entire market and started thrashing. When there are too many choices, it's easy to become paralyzed with all the variations available. Finally, my wife (bless her) suggested that we stay with Sabre because we'd had so much luck with them (3 years on a Sabre 34 as crew racing, then the Sabre 28). After she said that, within a week I'd narrowed the search to 3 Sabres (2 34s and a 38). We looked at all three in a day and bought the 38.

The point is that all the boats that you mention are great. I'd recommend narrowing the search to the one that is most affordable and which strikes your eye, and then buy it. When you do, don't look back at any other boat, especially to compare prices. Sail the thing!

Good Luck,
Mark 

PS. My wife's advice was so good that I put her name on the boat.


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## tempest

Sabre is still in business ( 41 years) and providing excellent service to their customers past and present..... Just saying.

I don't know what business decision went into their discontinuing the 34 or 362..
I've sailed quite a bit on the 386 and it's a sweet ride...

I talked to the owner and went aboard an '87 34 MK11 that came into my yard to haul out on Saturday..it looked like a brand new boat... which is really what you want to see when you buy a 25 year old boat...How much did the PO love her...regardless of what model or manufacturer you choose....and then does it call to you..


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## PalmettoSailor

Sabreman said:


> But race them well?? I'm working on that.
> 
> True. I've owned 2 Sabres and worked for two Catalina dealers so I know the brands well. The reality is that the boats listed have sold thousands and are perfectly fine for the 99.99% of conditions that we experience. The crew tends to give up far sooner than the boat. Two weeks ago, we sailed Gov Cup upwind in 22 kts (sustained) and 2' seas for 20 hours. Palmetto Moon (C36) endured the same conditions and arrived just as safely as us, but later
> 
> Find the boat that suits your pocketbook and tickles your fancy, then buy it. They're all good. BTW, Sabre 38's of mid 80's vintage in good conditions are about $40k higher than the budget listed. Not sure what a 34 would go for.


Not that much later, but the Sabre 38 that was in my fleet kicked our butt in convincing fashon. ;-) Partly the boat, but mainly a much better skipper. (ie 30+ years of racing experience and the event chair).

My advice is to not let your wife or SO see a newer Catalina or Hunter if what you want is an older Sabre/Tartan/Ericson. My C36 has quite a bit more room than below deck than a 36' Sabre and probably more than the 38.

When I began my search for our current boat, I wanted a Saber 36 or 38, a Tartan 37 or an Ericson 38. I also looked at a couple of CS36's a traditional and a Merlin. Of these boats, the only one in our price range that was equipped with the things we knew we wanted was a really nice Ericson 38, but even it needed some significant work and we couldn't agree on price. All the other boats had both maintenance issues and lacked one or more of the things on our "Must have" list. As others have pointed out if you find a boat that's had above average maintenence that fills 90% of your desires its the boat to buy. Condition pretty much trumps builder when it come to older production boats. Thats what happened with our C36. It was in the best condition of any boat I found during my search, had all of the items on our "must have list" and since it was the Admiral's favorite its what we bought despite my desire for a boat with a better PHRF rating.

I've now got a case of twofootitis and would like a boat around 40-42 feet that rates under 100, with nice crusing accomodations, AC and a separate shower in the head for under $100k. In otherwords my perfect boat doesn't exist.

Oh yeah, about that Gov Cup, Did you guys have Lasanga and hot garlic bread for dinner? ;-)


----------



## Sabreman

> Did you guys have Lasanga and hot garlic bread for dinner?


No. To heavy. We opted for fresh lobster, roasted potatoes, local greens with a choice of flan or hot apple pie for desert. Decanted the wine at 1800 and served with our best crystal.... all at a 30 degree heel and 22 kts up my nose. Wet night.......



> I don't know what business decision went into their discontinuing the 34 or 362


The answer is economics. Sabre has progressively priced themselves out of the market for "smaller" boats. They've dropped the classic 28, then 30 on up.


----------



## Grand River Raider

*Buying from current versus past manufacturer.*



manhattan08 said:


> Always consider the boats that are still in production. There is a reason why Hunter and Catalina are still being built today while some of the others are not. Also, you will get better customer service from a manufacturer that is still around today versus one that went out 20 years ago.


This is an interesting consideration and I've heard opinions on both sides. Marty makes the point that rarely does he need a part directly from Jenneau. And I wondered the same thing, how often would you need something directly from the builder. To my novice eye, it seems that the most important thing about the builder is that they develop a structurally sound boat (i.e., hull/deck/keel). Beyond this, much of the boat is not unique to the builder (i.e., engine).


----------



## Grand River Raider

*Sailboat Mania*



Sabreman said:


> GRR,
> I think that you're beginning to experience what I was when we were looking for our latest boat. Even though we'd owned a Sabre 28 for 15 years, I was scanning the entire market and started thrashing. When there are too many choices, it's easy to become paralyzed with all the variations available. Finally, my wife (bless her) suggested that we stay with Sabre because we'd had so much luck with them (3 years on a Sabre 34 as crew racing, then the Sabre 28). After she said that, within a week I'd narrowed the search to 3 Sabres (2 34s and a 38). We looked at all three in a day and bought the 38.
> 
> The point is that all the boats that you mention are great. I'd recommend narrowing the search to the one that is most affordable and which strikes your eye, and then buy it. When you do, don't look back at any other boat, especially to compare prices. Sail the thing!
> 
> Good Luck,
> Mark
> 
> PS. My wife's advice was so good that I put her name on the boat.


Mark,

This has been very true lately. Initially, the Tartans caught my eye and being from the Cleveland area the influence was there. I was interested almost exclusively in the Tartans. But then I got on board a few (34-2, 33) and I was not sure about the interior and it appeared difficult to find one in the condition I wanted that was in my price range. Granted, the interior is not the most important part of a sailboat, but it does matter for my purposes. Then I got on a mid 1980's Pearson 34 and liked the interior better. It felt more open so I decided to expand my search to other builders and this is how I arrived here. So yes I am thrashing around a bit (not only about builders, but length of boat, shallow versus deep draft, and on and on), but I must admit it has been an adventure so far and I'm enjoying it. And I appreciate hearing the opinions of sailors from around the country.

Thanks for your advice.

GRR


----------



## Grand River Raider

midlifesailor said:


> My advice is to not let your wife or SO see a newer Catalina or Hunter if what you want is an older Sabre/Tartan/Ericson. My C36 has quite a bit more room than below deck than a 36' Sabre and probably more than the 38.
> 
> When I began my search for our current boat, I wanted a Saber 36 or 38, a Tartan 37 or an Ericson 38. I also looked at a couple of CS36's a traditional and a Merlin. Of these boats, the only one in our price range that was equipped with the things we knew we wanted was a really nice Ericson 38, but even it needed some significant work and we couldn't agree on price. All the other boats had both maintenance issues and lacked one or more of the things on our "Must have" list. As others have pointed out if you find a boat that's had above average maintenence that fills 90% of your desires its the boat to buy. Condition pretty much trumps builder when it come to older production boats. Thats what happened with our C36. It was in the best condition of any boat I found during my search, had all of the items on our "must have list" and since it was the Admiral's favorite its what we bought despite my desire for a boat with a better PHRF rating.
> 
> I've now got a case of twofootitis and would like a boat around 40-42 feet that rates under 100, with nice crusing accomodations, AC and a separate shower in the head for under $100k. In otherwords my perfect boat doesn't exist.
> QUOTE]
> 
> Midlifesailor,
> 
> My girlfriend is absolutely no help in settling this matter.  We were looking around on the internet today and saw a very nice mid 1980's Ericson 35-3 and she said "that's it, that the one, call off the search". Mind you, two minutes earlier she was singing the praises of a Pearson 34 I would like to go see. You get the idea..."the seas" are very choppy here and I'm being tossed all over the place.
> 
> The consensus is forming that maintenance history trumps builder with regard to the 1980's production boats and I'm good with this approach. Fortunately, I really like the looks of the Tartans, Sabres, Pearsons and Ericsons for the most part so if I can just find one that gets pulled out of the water looking brand new as someone mentioned, then I'll be in luck. I've even taken a gander at some Catalinas recently and may decide to go look at a few (No offense intended, I was just not drawn to them initially). Thanks for your input.
> 
> GRR


----------



## Grand River Raider

Tempest said:


> I talked to the owner and went aboard an '87 34 MK11 that came into my yard to haul out on Saturday..it looked like a brand new boat... which is really what you want to see when you buy a 25 year old boat...How much did the PO love her...regardless of what model or manufacturer you choose....and then does it call to you..


I'm with you Tempest...this would be ideal. Find the fussiest 1980's production boat owner around and then make him/her an offer.


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## blt2ski

Grand River Raider said:


> I'm with you Tempest...this would be ideal. Find the fussiest 1980's production boat owner around and then make him/her an offer.


You would not be the first to do this. We managed to find an original owner when we bought ours 6 yrs or so ago. Yes there were a few things we needed to do.....well.....maybe a lot in the end, more than I thought we would do. But so goes the battle! In the end frankly, from talking to a number of folks, seems like it takes about 3 yrs to get the boat the way YOU want it. Some were even asking the how many more $$$$ spent than the initial cost, not in xx%, but 2-3-4times the amount the boat cost! I think I am in the what seems more ave than 10-30%, more like 200-300% of the initial boat cost! I ahve about 30-50K into my boat, initial cost was $22K.

With this in mind.......we have replaced ALL the cushions and foam, someone else did the work, added 4 head sails, new main, spinaker. one head sail and main are string style, ie a UK tapedrive main and a Ullman fiberpath 155, for the racing. a 140 cruise genoa, 110 and a 130 drifter for the les than 5 knot days we race in. Another BIGGER maxed out spin vs one in the 85% max out range is in the horizan, and a 80'ish% of foretriangle headsail for the 30-45 knot windy days we race in. All new sheets, halyards etc in something more than sta-set. IE for the most part Sampsons XLS Extra-T, which is 2-3 times the cost of stayset. Mainsail cover to replace original, same with same sails for that matter! The original foam back vinyl hull/headliner was shot, I did that myself, but still had 2-3K in materials and probably 60-80 hrs in my time etc. Along with new varnish on ALL interior teak wood! the speed guage did not work, so a Raymarine triple pack of a knot, depth and anomommeter was installed at about $1500 for the kit, and another 750 or so IIRC for the labor. It all adds up to more than 20-30%, in my case, more like 200-300%! Then again, I am into my boat less than a new one, I know what is here. I'm enjoying the boat in the mean time. As I type, I remember more things, like the head, hoses to the tank.......

Marty


----------



## puddinlegs

manhattan08 said:


> Always consider the boats that are still in production. *There is a reason why Hunter and Catalina are still being built today while some of the others are not.* Also, you will get better customer service from a manufacturer that is still around today versus one that went out 20 years ago.


The implication being that the best product survived while the inferior ones fell by the wayside? I hope that's not what you're saying. To digress, there were several manufactures now defunct that produced outstanding boats that are still considered superior to the boats you mention. I can think of a half dozen immediately off the top of my head. Customer service? Unless you're at the factory, manufacturers and brokers hire out local contractors to do their repair and commissioning. The same labor pool is available to anyone regardless of the age or manufacturer of their boat.


----------



## Grand River Raider

*A quality boat despite company death.*



puddinlegs said:


> The implication being that the best product survived while the inferior ones fell by the wayside? I hope that's not what you're saying. To digress, there were several manufactures now defunct that produced outstanding boats that are still considered superior to the boats you mention. I can think of a half dozen immediately off the top of my head. Customer service? Unless you're at the factory, manufacturers and brokers hire out local contractors to do their repair and commissioning. The same labor pool is available to anyone regardless of the age or manufacturer of their boat.


I'm interested in the names of those half dozen. Would they include Pearson and Ericson? Cape Dory? (Yes, I know that is only 3 )

And this was what I was trying to get at in my OP about build quality. The reputation seems to be that some of the builders, even if no longer in business, produced a superior product to some of the current manufacturers. I'm still trying to grasp exactly what superior build quality refers to and perhaps I'll have to fall back to the car analogy that is sometimes used to rank boats...however incomplete that may be.

GRR


----------



## Grand River Raider

*Exponential investment in sailboats*



blt2ski said:


> You would not be the first to do this. We managed to find an original owner when we bought ours 6 yrs or so ago. Yes there were a few things we needed to do.....well.....maybe a lot in the end, more than I thought we would do. But so goes the battle! In the end frankly, from talking to a number of folks, seems like it takes about 3 yrs to get the boat the way YOU want it. Some were even asking the how many more $$$$ spent than the initial cost, not in xx%, but 2-3-4times the amount the boat cost! I think I am in the what seems more ave than 10-30%, more like 200-300% of the initial boat cost! I ahve about 30-50K into my boat, initial cost was $22K.
> 
> Marty


Wow, you sure have done a lot to your boat. The investment is exponential, but as you say you are enjoying the boat and the process and that is the important thing. I'm hoping to be in the 10-30% myself.

GRR


----------



## blt2ski

GRR,

My cost frankly, "IS" in line with what others locally have spent at times from my marina/yc etc. this 10-20%, ie for me $2-4K of an initial coast of $22K. The problem is, some of the items cost $X, no matter the size/cost of the boat. So if you need a knotmeter, $400-600 for the unit! If you bought a 5K boat, your now at you budget for redoing things.

Frankly, depending upon the what you need to do, 20-30K would not surprise me, so that would be more in the 40-60% of your budget with out looking back on some posts. That 20-30K does not go out the door overnight, it was over 3-4 yrs, and STILL going out the door!

HERE is a link for the interior redo on the jeanneau owners site. then a link to the head redo is at the bottom of the aft stateroom redo too. Then you can see from the aft room, the change from the stock cushions to the new ones in the article. SO yes, we have done a lot, but compared to some, with in reason too.
marty


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## olson34

Grand River Raider said:


> I'm interested in the names of those half dozen. Would they include Pearson and Ericson? Cape Dory? (Yes, I know that is only 3 )
> 
> And this was what I was trying to get at in my OP about build quality. The reputation seems to be that some of the builders, even if no longer in business, produced a superior product to some of the current manufacturers. I'm still trying to grasp exactly what superior build quality refers to and perhaps I'll have to fall back to the car analogy that is sometimes used to rank boats...however incomplete that may be.
> 
> GRR


Superior Build Quality is sort of like checking out the footings and foundation of your proposed house purchase before getting seduced by the new kitchen appliances.

On a boat, check out the hull-to-deck joint. Ports framed in plastic or ss/aluminum. (Bronze on classic designs like the Cape Dory)
If the hull is cored, you need to have a good survey to see if water intrusion has compromised the designed-in strength.

While a "stick built" interior like inside the the Sabre's and Ericson's is wonderful, an interior incorporating more frp modules can be just s strong and durable. Look for _complete tabbing _of all the interior pieces to the hull. Be a bit wary of "floating" bulkheads, and ancient generalized claims that the builder used "special adhesive" to hold structural stuff together.

FWIW, That system of glassing the inside of the hull and deck together to form a one-piece structure did indeed cost Ericson Yachts extra labor and materials. All the higher-end builders did this or something similar. I still have a nice drawing of the structure of the Yamaha 33 and 36 joint, and there was a lot of effort and engineering that went into it.

Talk to a good surveyor about what to look for. If you can find a copy of Jim Jessie's great video, "How to be your own surveyor, almost", grab it.

All that, and winnow out a lot of "wisdom" you find from opinionated strangers, like even me, on the 'net!


LB


----------



## puddinlegs

Grand River Raider said:


> I'm interested in the names of those half dozen. Would they include Pearson and Ericson? Cape Dory? (Yes, I know that is only 3 )
> 
> And this was what I was trying to get at in my OP about build quality. The reputation seems to be that some of the builders, even if no longer in business, produced a superior product to some of the current manufacturers. I'm still trying to grasp exactly what superior build quality refers to and perhaps I'll have to fall back to the car analogy that is sometimes used to rank boats...however incomplete that may be.
> 
> GRR


I'd say Pearson and Ericson make very nice boats that will suit your purposes well. Just find the right example and you should be fine. I've had friends cruise the Great Lakes on everything from a Catalina 27 to a C&C 61. Another friend was the first to windsurf across Lake Michigan in 1980!

Within the whole 'manufacture' discussion are outstanding individual designs. And of course budget not only to buy, but to maintain. Don't underestimate this. Costs rise exponentially roughly every 5 feet.

Of the Ericson boats that deserve special attention are those that were originally built by Olson ( Pacific Boat Works... outstanding glass work!) and the molds sold to Ericson after PBW went out of business: the Olson 34 and Olson 911. The Pacific Boat Works 911(s) is lighter and superior in build to the Ericson 911(se), but are great 30' boats from the board of the late Carl Schumaker. The Olson 34 is a great boat as well. Both the 911 and 34 are hard to come by as their owners are loath to part with them.

Others off the top of my head that haven't appeared in this thread:
Yankee 30, Olson 911, S2 9.1 or 10.3, J-34 or 35c (the nod goes to the 35c), Alsberg Bros Express 34. (Both the Express 34 and J35c where built in very limited numbers and both are very popular with their owners so hard to find.)
Then there are a number of C&C's (pre-Tartan and post Tartan ownership) that are popular, widely available, and have great user group info available. If you had the cash, an older S&S small Swan (36,37, or 38) would be nice, as might a Hinckley Pilot 35 ( a very different and older design than any of the aforementioned) CS made some very nice boats as well that are worth looking at. In the end, the right boat will not only be mechanically and structurally sound, but you'll just like looking at it in the slip! If you don't like the one you're dancing with, you'll always be looking for something else and focus is important. It's not just a boat, it's a life style! 

You can find more basic info on the boats mentioned here:

http://sailboatdata.com/


----------



## olson34

Trivia note: The Olson 911S and the Olson 25 were continued in production after EricsonYachts purchased the tooling in mid '88. The Olson 34 was designed by George Olson (with a _lot_ of inspiration from the O-911S, a Carl Schumacher design) but Pacific Boats built only one before closing their doors and also conveying that tooling to Ericson. 
Ericson then built another 38 (or 39, depending on who you ask) before themselves going out of business in '90.

I got to explore most of the below-decks spaces of an 80's Pacific Boats O-911S, and agree that it was VERY well built and finished. My EY-built Olson comes close, but it's still not as detailed out.

OTOH, I'm really glad that I do Not have a cored hull to be concerned about as our boat ages.

"Everything's a compromise," as a friend of mine always sez.

Cheers,
L

ps: while also "loath" to part with ours... we might sell it to buy one of the larger Ericsons..... 
We have owned ours since '94... maybe time in our lives for one more boat, or not...


----------



## Sabreman

Interesting that the thread has wandered into the dreaded "cost" topic. When we bought _Victoria_ in 2005, she was in good condition but needed updating throughout. She was offered at $95k, we settled on $85k and went to survey which found a rotted bulkhead due to leaking chainplates. We renegotiated and took $10k off, settling for $75k. Since then, we've put in $15k, so that's 20% over six years. I do all my own work so I'm sure that the yard costs would double (?) that number if they were to do it.

The point is that boats of this vintage (1984) *WILL* require work, regardless of pedigree. I have also found that unless equipment is less than 10 years old, it will need replacing or repair. So don't sweat all the do-dads; they should have *NO* bearing on your purchase decision because you'll replace them anyway within 5 years. We knew what we were getting into and decided that my sweat equity was worth more than the extra interest payments and thrashing that I would endure if I waited for the perfect boat (which doesn't exist).

So here we are 6 seasons later and the boat is how I want it. So what did I find today? A leaking chainplate. The cycle starts again. The point is to buy quality. The money that you put into the boat will be worth it.

A link to photos and an honest list of repairs follows:

VICTORIA (and her mistress)

Bottom paint 
Replace Battery Charger
Replace interior lights
Replace AM/FM w/ CD/AM/FM
Replace GPS/ remove Loran
Remove screen from diesel fuel line
Replace wing nuts w/ aircraft nuts on batteries
Rebuild steps
Zero Compass
Replace mainsail cover, wheel cover, winch covers, bimini cover
Install leather wheel cover
Service Masthead lights
Repair bulkhead in anchor well
Install stainless air vents
Replace running rigging
PSS shaft seal
1" diameter shaft x 48" length 
Cutlass bearing (1 3/8")
Knotmeter paddle wheel replacement 
Replace cabin light for Vberth w/Anti-corrosion 
Repair port fwd lower chainplate & associated cabinetry
Fill hole in leading edge of keel 
Overhaul port side through-hulls. Work all others.
Repair centerboard pendant.
new bilge pump switch. 
R/R check valve
Install vented loopfor auto bilge pump
Install bronze A/C discharge thru hull fitting.
Replace clinometer
Install soap & toothbrush holders
New o-rings for depth sounder & knowmeter
install hatch holders on lazarette hatches
Refrubish genoa
Replace starter solenoid
Build new Vberth, Qtr berth, & spacer cushions
New engine tachometer
Fix F/W system. Bypass accumulator, bypass H/W heater.
Purchase & install new radio & home speakers
reapir rotted anchor well bulkhead
Rebuild F/W pump
Refinish cabin sole
Repair fordeck light
Finish interior w/ urethane
Certified water hose & fittings for A/C sea water intake
Build new Bimini
Repair stbd upper lifeline stern rail fitting
Paint hatch frame white/ new gasketing
Replace Raw Water pump
New cushion foam
Replace engine raw water pump
Repair galley delta faucet
Refurbish Wind Guage/ Knotmeter
Replace Fresh Water pump
Strip Bottom, fair keel.
new 7:1 vang
new VHF radio
Fix anchor well wood strip. Replace w/ painted pressure treated wood 
Repaint waterline & sheer stripe (Port Kinsale/MM) 
Repair Refrigerator
New Lifelines
New-ish biradial 145% genoa/new lufftape
high gloss varnish interior window frames, overhead trim
new VHF handheld
strip/refinish cockpit teak
Rebuild pressure water pump
New genoa
LED masthead & Stern lights
Strip Bottom Paint/fair keel
Dodger
Bimini
life ring
lantern
NAV software & GPS
NAV charts
SS Cowl (2 - 4" round)
SS Cowl (4 - 4" low profile)
swivel reading light (brass)
running rigging
Leather Cover for wheel
high gloss interior handrails
Replace centerboard cable / repair SS pulley/housing
Mainsail
Rebuild traveler 4:1 / new cam cleats
Add blocks & cam cleats for adjustable spin pole track
New fuel guage and sender
New bilge 2000 GPH pump


----------



## Grand River Raider

*Nice Boat!!!*

She's a beauty Sabreman! If I'm not mistaken, that list of upgrades/improvements looks like a yachtworld spec sheet. You're not putting her on the market after all that are you  Would be in my price range any way.

Marty, I did not mean to imply that your costs were out of line. It is good to hear what others have gone through in getting their boats in shape. My goal is buy a boat that is first and foremost well-built and structurally sound and followed a close second by an engine in decent condition. Hopefully the absolutely necessary systems will be in good working order. Bells and whistles can wait and spreading 10-30% out over several years is fine with me. I don't particularly want to dump 30% on top of the cost of the boat the day she is delivered to my marina.

GRR


----------



## Grand River Raider

*Oops*

That of course would be that Victoria is NOT in my price range...stating the obvious.


----------



## Grand River Raider

*A smorgasboard of old boats*



puddinlegs said:


> I'd say Pearson and Ericson make very nice boats that will suit your purposes well. Just find the right example and you should be fine. I've had friends cruise the Great Lakes on everything from a Catalina 27 to a C&C 61. Another friend was the first to windsurf across Lake Michigan in 1980!
> 
> Within the whole 'manufacture' discussion are outstanding individual designs. And of course budget not only to buy, but to maintain. Don't underestimate this. Costs rise exponentially roughly every 5 feet.
> 
> Of the Ericson boats that deserve special attention are those that were originally built by Olson ( Pacific Boat Works... outstanding glass work!) and the molds sold to Ericson after PBW went out of business: the Olson 34 and Olson 911. The Pacific Boat Works 911(s) is lighter and superior in build to the Ericson 911(se), but are great 30' boats from the board of the late Carl Schumaker. The Olson 34 is a great boat as well. Both the 911 and 34 are hard to come by as their owners are loath to part with them.
> 
> Others off the top of my head that haven't appeared in this thread:
> Yankee 30, Olson 911, S2 9.1 or 10.3, J-34 or 35c (the nod goes to the 35c), Alsberg Bros Express 34. (Both the Express 34 and J35c where built in very limited numbers and both are very popular with their owners so hard to find.)
> Then there are a number of C&C's (pre-Tartan and post Tartan ownership) that are popular, widely available, and have great user group info available. If you had the cash, an older S&S small Swan (36,37, or 38) would be nice, as might a Hinckley Pilot 35 ( a very different and older design than any of the aforementioned) CS made some very nice boats as well that are worth looking at. In the end, the right boat will not only be mechanically and structurally sound, but you'll just like looking at it in the slip! If you don't like the one you're dancing with, you'll always be looking for something else and focus is important. It's not just a boat, it's a life style!
> 
> You can find more basic info on the boats mentioned here:
> 
> Sailboatdata.com is the worlds largest sailboat and sailing yacht database with more than 8000 sailboats, sailing yachts, and sailing dingies listed.


Thanks Puddinlegs...a whole slew of boats to consider and many that I have not looked into yet. But I'm not sure I can sail a boat with "911" in the name. Put 5-7 tons of sailboat underneath me and with three brand new ASA certifications I know just enough to be dangerous  (In seriousness, I'll be heading out to help crew for races at a local yacht club and plan to charter with a captain to get some more water time while the boat search continues...how else to become experienced but to do it.)

Various people have commented on this thread about 10-30% for upgrading and repairing the old boat, but as a new sailor it is hard to get a sense of the maintenance costs and in particular the exponential increase for every 5 feet of boat length. Bigger boat equals more expensive slip fee, more bottom paint, bigger/more expensive sails, more fuel...what else?


----------



## blt2ski

We dumped 20-25% the day we delivered with bottom paint, wife wanted the hull waxed, new boot stripes.......Then again, boat was 20K, work with someone else doing and haulout for survey etc went with it.......It can happen depending upon the price etc. !5% of what sabreman has done, would be 60-70% of my boats cost, I have done a lot of what he has done, and more. Altho a lot due to different circumstances has been done by shop labor, so price is higher than his. If he had uses yar/shop labor, his price/percentage would probably be double to triple! 

I could have done some of the sails for less, ie go newish as he did on the 140. Mainsail I could have gotten a really cheap dacron for 1200, or the Fiberpath for about 3500...... A GOOD dacron would have been 1500-1800. His sails are probably double or close to mine, as his boat is bigger, so sails will be bigger, and more cost! I know one guy with a 40' boat, his main was 5K for a decent dacron!

Some stuff as said, will be X$ no matter what size, cost......

Sailing magazine every january?!?! does a refit of about 4 boats, costs vary from 10% for a fairly newish boat, to 150% for a racing dingy. The % can vary based on what you need to do, vs want to do vs_____________. 

Another boat to add, Islander, maybe Ranger too.

marty


----------



## JordanH

Hi GRR,
I just got back from sailing through a good portion of the great lakes. 6 weeks on our little Contessa; My wife, dog and I covered only about 900 miles and spent lots of time exploring Lake Huron/Georgian Bay, Lake St. Clair, Lake Erie and Lake Ontario. We took everything the lakes could bring to us... 30+ knot winds one day, 26+ knots with 14' mixed waves another, fog, sun, calm.

While we were out there, we came across a wide range of other sailors with everything from a Westsail 32 to 50+' sailboats to smaller C&C's etc.

What I'm trying to say is that if we can make the trek in a lil' 26' sailboat, any "size" will be sufficient. And given the wide range of craft that successfully navigate the Great Lakes any of the brands you mention make sufficient boats for the task.

So... the question really shouldn't come down to "which brand", but you should look at what sailing characteristics you prefer. Fin keel/Full keep? Rig? Transom style? Wide or narrow beam? Displacement? etc. etc. I'm, by no means, an expert on those but there are some terrific books that describe the characteristics of each. Once you determine what style of boat you want, THEN you can easily narrow down which makes/models fit the bill.

Well, at least that's my approach.


----------



## Grand River Raider

*Boat Characteristics versus "Brand"*

Jordan H,

Wow! What a great way to spend a part of your summer. Sounds like an adenturous trip at some points.

I think your approach has merit and boat characteristics are one of the considerations. One of the characteristics I'm considering is boat draft. I started a thread on this issue in the cruiser forum. If you have a few minutes, I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on this issue over on that thread as well as more about your trip through the Great Lakes!

Thanks,

GRR


----------



## puddinlegs

Shortlist for our boat over the past three years:

Re-powered. 
Re-core deck around chainplates, bow pulpit, head mushroom vent, and port primary winch. 
Backing plates for mast base turning blocks (6 total).
Replace cockpit multi-display (partial warrantee)
Replace mast head unit computer board.
New house and start battery
Replace GPS (this was a freebee... some things just work out. Clean living I guess!)
Rebuild head (mostly labor, a few small parts)
Replace forepeak hatch (bent frame)
Replace interior lighting (switch to LED)
Replace running light bulbs (again, LED)
New Life Sling (recalled and replaced by West Marine)
New dock lines
A couple of new fenders (ironically, we've had three wash up next to the boat over the past three years... put out an apb, but no takers)
replaced life jackets 
new #3 kevlar tri-radial
replaced line clutches

replaced running rigging:
spinnaker sheets
jib sheets
jib halyard
main halyard
traveller line
topping lift
pole downhaul
pole mast control line
vang fine tune line
jib car adjustment lines
reef line(s)

re-cut old dacron delivery/cruising main
installed smart plug 
replaced interior handrail
re-varnished our very small amount of brightwork
touch up paint to scratches on mast
disassembled, inspected spreader assemblies.
disassemble, lube and service winches (6.. twice a year)
Annual haulout, inspection, bottom paint, buff + wax hull.
The usual engine maintenance/oil changes.

To do's:
sort out the NMEA wiring between GPS,VHF, and the auto tiller.
replace headstay foil
re-rig spinnaker poles
buff + wax doghouse, cockpit (no, not the floor!)
Probably not this year, but we'd like a new #2.
Finish new lee cloths
Re-bed deck hardware aft of the doghouse
re-sew mainsail cover

Pretty typical list I'd guess. The boat has great bones and is well worth the effort. Not as long a list as Marty's though!  ... fortunately the boat came with a great sail inventory! And yes, we do sail a good bit so it doesn't really feel like a constant project.


----------



## puddinlegs

blt2ski said:


> Another boat to add, Islander, maybe Ranger too.
> 
> marty


Ranger 33, Islander 36... Good thoughts Marty! There's an absolutely stunning old Ranger 37 One tonner around here. Probably looks better than new.


----------



## dhays

I'm late on this thread but will toss my $.02 in.

I would seriously take a look at the Catalina 36 and see if there are any on the Lakes there for sail in good condition. It was one of the most successful production boats ever made for good reason. The Catalina 36 association is hugely active and very helpful. With so many boats out in circulation, there are hundreds of owners willing to lend you their help and experience. Catalina Yachts is also very helpful to owners of it's boats, regardless of how old.

Having said that, on the older C36 you want to make sure that there has not been water intrusion into the deck. If the chainplates were not adequately maintained, it is possible for water intrusion and then core rot in the deck. There is also the possibility of some blistering on the hull (not bad, but it can be there).

I owned a '84 C36. Comfortable and a very nice sailing boat.

FWIW, when I was a kid I was very covetous of some friends we cruised with who had an Ericson27. Very nice and well built boat. I've always considered the Ericson to have a great reputation. However, boats of that vintage will have potential issues as others have said.

BTW, now is the perfect time to buy a boat.


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## blt2ski

There is a LONG owner owned I36 here where I am, been for sail for awhile too. Not sure what the inside is like. Probably too expensive to ship to the GL's. 

Rangers are good boats too. Part of the BPunta fiasco in the late 80s as to why they shut down. islander may have been the recession from the fed boat taxes...... Their are a number of I36's that are still be raced and do well locally too. Whistling Swan comes to mind as just rated faster than me, harder than heck to catch on handicap...

Marty


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## Grand River Raider

*Short list?*

Puddinlegs,

If that is the short list, I'd hate to see the long list. That is daunting! I may need to take up bowling or win the lottery to maintain a sailboat.

dhays,

You are adding to the growing list of posters suggesting the boat be purchased from the Great Lakes. Unfortunately, at this point, the boats I'm really drawn to are not really in the Great Lakes in my price range. Hopefully, that will change, but if the choice comes down to a boat that has been in saltwater versus a Great Lakes boat that doesn't make my heart race, I think I gotta go with the saltwater.

GRR


----------



## Grand River Raider

*Tartan 33?*

What do folks think of the Tartan 33? It received a pretty good review in Practical Sailor, but I'm wondering about firsthand knowledge.


----------



## Ajax_MD

Here's some more info on the Tartan Owner's list that may help you:

Tartan 33

Be careful though, there were a few versions. If you get the Sheel Keel, you'll be set for gunkholing. If you get the T-33R, that's the deeper draft fin keel version. Great for racing, not so much for shallow water cruising.


----------



## Grand River Raider

BubbleheadMd said:


> Here's some more info on the Tartan Owner's list that may help you:
> 
> Tartan 33
> 
> Be careful though, there were a few versions. If you get the Sheel Keel, you'll be set for gunkholing. If you get the T-33R, that's the deeper draft fin keel version. Great for racing, not so much for shallow water cruising.


Right. Starting to get some input from Great Lakes sailors that shallow draft is not really important even for cruising the islands and channels. Some have said anywhere between 5-6 ft of draft is fine for this purpose.

The T-33 seems to a have a bit of a quirky interior.

Thanks for the link.

GRR


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## JimsCAL

When I was shopping for a boat in the 32-35 foot range a couple of years ago, my short list included many of the boats mentioned and a few that were not - Sabre 34-2, Pearson 34, J34c, Tartan 34-2, C&C 99, Catalina 320, Catalina 34, Tartan 3500, Cal 33-2. Ended up with a very clean Cal 33-2 at a great price. In the last two years of ownership, I've "only" spent $3000 or so on replacements and upgrades, though new sails are on the list in the next couple of years. Love the boat and would do it all over again.

I find the rule-of-thumb for upgrading costs based on some percentage of the cost of the boat make no sense. An older project boat is going to cost several times its purchase cost to make decent. A newer well maintained boat of the same size that costs many times the project boat may only need normal maintainance. You really have to take it boat by boat and add up what needs to be done to make it like you want it.


----------



## tempest

GRR, 

For what it's worth, Without listing everything.... It looks like Sabremans and puddlinglegs lists and timeline are very similar to mine,
in six years of ownership of my current Sabre 34. I have easily put 40% of the 
cost back into upgrades and repairs. 

New sails, running rigging, new cushions in the cabin, GPS Plotter, Dinghy and Motor, Dodger and Bimini, Bulkhead work, replaced heat exchanger, tri-color, deck light, anchor. etc etc.
Not to mention all the routine stuff like batteries, hoses, refinishing the cabin sole, taking apart all the winches, seacocks to clean and lube..and so forth...


----------



## Grand River Raider

*On reasonable and expected maintenance costs*



JimsCAL said:


> I find the rule-of-thumb for upgrading costs based on some percentage of the cost of the boat make no sense. An older project boat is going to cost several times its purchase cost to make decent. A newer well maintained boat of the same size that costs many times the project boat may only need normal maintainance. You really have to take it boat by boat and add up what needs to be done to make it like you want it.


Jim,

Congrats on finding boat you are really happy with. I think I'm really looking for the well-maintained boat that needs only normal maintenance. Maybe a tall order. Certainly not a project boat. I would expect to have to do the usual maintenance. Of course, no one can predict surprises except maybe to say they will occur. As to frequency or severity of the issue...it seems a bit of a gamble.

It is good to hear a somewhat different perspective on boat maintenance/repair costs.

GRR


----------



## Grand River Raider

*Valuable Info*



Tempest said:


> GRR,
> 
> For what it's worth, Without listing everything.... It looks like Sabremans and puddlinglegs lists and timeline are very similar to mine,
> in six years of ownership of my current Sabre 34. I have easily put 40% of the
> cost back into upgrades and repairs.
> 
> New sails, running rigging, new cushions in the cabin, GPS Plotter, Dinghy and Motor, Dodger and Bimini, Bulkhead work, replaced heat exchanger, tri-color, deck light, anchor. etc etc.
> Not to mention all the routine stuff like batteries, hoses, refinishing the cabin sole, taking apart all the winches, seacocks to clean and lube..and so forth...


Tempest,

To a new sailor, it is worth a lot. As were the lists by Sabreman and Puddinlegs...just a bit overwhelming. Perhaps I'll have to downgrade my sights from a small cruiser to a dinghy. 

GRR


----------



## puddinlegs

Hope our list didn't scare you away! Honestly, many of the jobs just aren't that big a deal, especially if you like boat work. The biggies, re-powering and re-coring, where from the results of the pre purchase survey. We made our initial offer, did the survey, found some issues, got estimates, subtracted those costs from the original offer, adjusted the offer, accepted, got the boat, and fixed the problems. It took about 2, 2 1/2 weeks of work for the deck. The engine was about 3 days. Both the engine and deck where professionally done. The rest is just my own sweat equity which saves a ton of money. Lots of stuff is just changing things out. Splicing new lines is kind of a zen exercise. It's actually relaxing. Yeah, our list was a little surprising to me as well. It just doesn't feel like it's been all that much work. Even with the money spent, we're still miles below what a new 34' boat would cost, and with arguably, a much better design and build quality than 95% of what's currently available new.


----------



## Grand River Raider

*Newbie double whammy*



puddinlegs said:


> Hope our list didn't scare you away! Honestly, many of the jobs just aren't that big a deal, especially if you like boat work. The biggies, re-powering and re-coring, where from the results of the pre purchase survey. We made our initial offer, did the survey, found some issues, got estimates, subtracted those costs from the original offer, adjusted the offer, accepted, got the boat, and fixed the problems. It took about 2, 2 1/2 weeks of work for the deck. The engine was about 3 days. Both the engine and deck where professionally done. The rest is just my own sweat equity which saves a ton of money. Lots of stuff is just changing things out. Splicing new lines is kind of a zen exercise. It's actually relaxing. Yeah, our list was a little surprising to me as well. It just doesn't feel like it's been all that much work. Even with the money spent, we're still miles below what a new 34' boat would cost, and with arguably, a much better design and build quality than 95% of what's currently available new.


For me, the issue is that not only am I new to sailing, but I am also new to sailboats. I did not grow up around or have exposure to people who owned them, so initially I had no concept of what was required for maintenance, etc. How could I with no exposure? My girlfriend's brother has been sailing for a long time and we have been talking the last few months and I'm learning a lot. But it is a steep learning curve when you've had no prior exposure and some of the information on costs is surprising/sobering and takes a little bit of the enthusiasm off (just a little). But that is okay...it is part of the deal and I'd rather know ahead of time what I'm getting myself into before dropping a big chunk of change on a boat.

So no, you did not scare me away. I'm still pretty stoked about getting a boat. And I appreciate sailors giving their input...that is how I broad my exposure to people who have been there.


----------



## so34chi

GRR,

We're Lake Michigan sailors who know folks with these boats but haven't sailed them. A T34C from the '70s that's 2/3 of the way through a total restoration is 2 slips from us, with an '80s Tartan 34 across the finger pier from it. Other friends have a Sabre 34 from the '80s. All are boats beloved by their owners - and reportedly sail well. We also know folks who have had Pearsons and Ericsons and were happy with them. Well-maintained, all are good boats, especially with full draft or keel/centerboard combinations, on the Lakes. I would add to this list the S2 11 meter, another well-built boat from the '80s (there were few 10.3s built and they are hard to find on the used market).

If you intend to do some distance cruising on the Lakes and have time constraints, upwind sailing performance is important, as undoubtedly you'll have to do some of this. In our experience, a Catalina 30 with a wing keel or the much newer Jeanneau SO34.2 or SO35 with a shoal-draft keel will have more leeway and not make as much progress upwind as a boat with a full keel or a shoal keel with a deeper centerboard, absent assistance from the Iron Genny. The shoal draft is useful in the few shallow harbors and when anchoring in some places, but not nearly as necessary in the Lakes as it is reputed to be in Chesapeake Bay. Unless you wish to frequent a harbor or anchorage where deep draft just doesn't fit.

Some Pearson models/years have deck core issues which we understand arise from faulty bedding of the lifeline stanchions. Sabres are hard to find on the Lakes and priced higher than the other boats. While Catalinas are OK boats, have great mutual support among their owners, and the Catalina owners we know all like their boats, the makes you mentioned in your first post are better if well-maintained.

And keep in mind that a freshwater-only boat will usually have fewer problems than one that has been in salt water, all else equal.

--Karl


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## chef2sail

I would also be looking into the C&C 35 of thiis era as they are sturdy, well built and perform better on many points of saIL than most of the boats already mentioned.Additionally these is quite a fleet of them on the Great lakes as they were built in this era. This is in no way a put down of the Tartans, Ericksons, Personas or Sabres. They are all fine boats. In fact when I purchased Haleakula it was between her and a Tartan 37 and a Sabre 36. The C&C 35MKIII was in better condition. Thats what drove me to buy her. All are good quality boats.

Dave


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## JimsCAL

so34chi said:


> Some Pearson models/years have deck core issues which we understand arise from faulty bedding of the lifeline stanchions.


I believe the Pearson 31 and 33-2 built in the mid 80s had that issue. Pearson used gaskets under the stanchion bases rather than traditional bedding. Didn't work.


----------



## Grand River Raider

*Pearson 31-2/33-2 Design Flaw*



JimsCAL said:


> I believe the Pearson 31 and 33-2 built in the mid 80s had that issue. Pearson used gaskets under the stanchion bases rather than traditional bedding. Didn't work.


That is too bad. I was considering going to look at both of these models. Is this a major project to fix? Would this design flaw rule out this class of boats or would a good example be worth looking at and repairing if needed?


----------



## Ajax_MD

Grand River Raider said:


> That is too bad. I was considering going to look at both of these models. Is this a major project to fix? Would this design flaw rule out this class of boats or would a good example be worth looking at and repairing if needed?


No, it wouldn't rule it out. Every boat has some kind of flaw. Don't let "Perfect" be the enemy of "Good Enough".

You're asking all the right questions and doing your research but I think you're starting to suffer from information overload a bit. 

In the case of the P-31 and 33-2, early owners may have caught this problem early and fixed it. Later owners may have repaired soggy core and sealed the stanchions. Go look at the boats, and just have the surveyor (or you) check for stains, soft spots, and use a moisture meter. Tap around and listen for a dull thud that indicates a soggy core.


----------



## puddinlegs

so34chi said:


> GRR,
> 
> I would add to this list the S2 11 meter, another well-built boat from the '80s (there were few 10.3s built and they are hard to find on the used market)
> 
> --Karl


Ah! That's what I meant... the 11, not the 10.3. A friend has one and loves it. He and his wife have been chipping away at upgrades, replacements, repairs, etc... it has to be one of the nicest S2 11's around!


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## arf145

GRR, Pearson used the brilliant gasket method under the stanchions of our 87 P28-2, which we bought 4 years ago. It's not necessarily that big a deal. No doubt it depends on the boat, but here's how ours went. The surveyor found our decks to be solid everywhere, and dry for the most part. He found elevated moisture and some dead soundings around the bow pulpit and near the stbd jib track. Otherwise all good. I have since potted and rebed all stanchions and really only had wet core and around 3, with some localized rot out maybe 2 inches around the 2 pulpit supports. I was able to scrape out the bad stuff with pieces of coat hangers to get to good core and then refill these areas with thickened epoxy during the potting.

So, yeah, repotting-rebedding is a pain, but I'd plan to do that on any boat that old that hadn't had it done. It certainly shouldn't disqualify any Pearson you're interested in without inspection--and really, once you know how to inspect, you can do a good preliminary check on this yourself.


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## boatted9

*Overload of Information*

Here's an additional thought that might help. We have literally searched for and looked at (online and in person) hundreds, maybe thousands of boats. We finally started an eliminatiion process in size, prices, style and quality. By elimination (price first) and setting realistic ranges we narrowed our search down a lot, but we also found a number of less well know names that fit our requirements. If you can be really specific (in your own mind) about what you must have you'll find fewer boats to consider, but that special beauty may come out of the pack, and you may never have heard of the builder before. We recently have had that experience and found a wonderful boat (for us) at a price we could afford that many do not recognize.

Good luck, and remember, the journey is usually as rewarding as the destination.

boatted9


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## mikel1

GRR: go to ericsonyachts.org and check the thread "E-35 kicks butt"


----------



## Grand River Raider

*Pearson 31-2 Deck Surgery*



arf145 said:


> GRR, Pearson used the brilliant gasket method under the stanchions of our 87 P28-2, which we bought 4 years ago. It's not necessarily that big a deal. No doubt it depends on the boat, but here's how ours went. The surveyor found our decks to be solid everywhere, and dry for the most part. He found elevated moisture and some dead soundings around the bow pulpit and near the stbd jib track. Otherwise all good. I have since potted and rebed all stanchions and really only had wet core and around 3, with some localized rot out maybe 2 inches around the 2 pulpit supports. I was able to scrape out the bad stuff with pieces of coat hangers to get to good core and then refill these areas with thickened epoxy during the potting.
> 
> So, yeah, repotting-rebedding is a pain, but I'd plan to do that on any boat that old that hadn't had it done. It certainly shouldn't disqualify any Pearson you're interested in without inspection--and really, once you know how to inspect, you can do a good preliminary check on this yourself.


arf145,

Thank you for this information. Shortly after previous posts about the stanchion-deck issues on Pearson 31-2 and 33-2, I contacted a broker about a late 1980's model 31-2. He said it is a very fine boat, but a recent survey found wet decks, mostly around the bow area on both starboard and port. They finally decided the problem was at the toerails and upon removing these discovered that all of the "caulking" was gone. The balsa core was tested and found to be wet, but to have no rot. So, they hired a company called Dry Boat (ever heard of this?) to fix the problem. As it was explained by the broker, all of the toerail was removed, holes were drilled in around the deck horizontally rather than vertically, and then a bunch of small tubes were inserted and air was injected through the tubes over a period of time to dry the core. Then the toerails were bedded. He said a surveyor was involved throughout the process to check the work.

As part of this process, he said they also rebedded the stanchions. If someone were to rebed the stanchions on these boats properly, would the gaskets remain or would this be replaced by something else?

I am going to go see this boat in a couple of weeks. I am a bit leery about a boat that has had such major surgery, but maybe that fixed the problem (or maybe it didn't ). At the very least, it will give me an opportunity to see whether I like this model and whether it is worth pursuing other examples.

GRR


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## chef2sail

*toe rail stanchions*

I prefer the solution our C&C has with the stanchiins bases attached to our anodized toe rail. There is never a core or bedding issue this way. Any boat with full toe rails bow to stern could employ these

Dave


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## JimsCAL

GRR, I personally would be comfortable with a boat that had that core work done. However, I would still absolutely have my own survey to verify the results. Some moisture in the deck is almost a given in any boat older than 10 years of so. It's just a question of how much and what it will take to fix it. I think you will like the Pearson 31-2. Nice layout for a boat of that size and a good sailing boat.


----------



## RobGallagher

I have noticed that the asking price of used boats is in line with what most have posted here. Sabre asks the highest price, followed by C&C, Tartan, Pearson, Ericson, Catalina, Jeanneau, Hunter, etc.

That is not to say that it is an exact science and there are TONS of variables. Demand plays as much a part as build quality I would expect. Three are so many more Catalina and Hunter 30's on the market than, say, Tartan 3000's or C&C 30's that it must play some part in the asking price.

I'm still looking and the more I look the more confused I get.

Getting aboard a boat and actually sailing on it can help take it off your short list, or hopefully, make you fall in love with it and shorten the process.

I looked at two C&C 30MKII's thinking I would fall in love. One had issues that needed professional repair, mid-summer in a busy yard, not something I wanted to get involved in. The other was in much rougher shape than the photo's and description reflected. Very much a let down.

I recently sailed on a Tartan 34 and it's a nice boat, but I just didn't fall in love with it so I took it off me short list 

As for the Atomic 4, it's a great engine, don't shy away from it. Simple upgrades like electronic ignition make it very reliable. Moyer Marine is casting blocks, heads, etc. and they are very easy to work on. If you where any bit of a gear head in high school you are already half way to being an A-4 expert. Also, Much less expensive to replace than a diesel and many of them have outlasted diesels.


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## olson34

Great Post, Sabreman! (reply #50)
And you've _only_ owned it since '05.
We have been upgrading our boat since we bought it in '94, and at this point I have had to replace gear that _I_ installed in our early years. (Sigh....)


Oh well, we like the boat a lot, and the replacement work usually goes faster because most of the preparation for wiring or plumbing was done the first time.


Cheers,
LB


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## Grand River Raider

*Anodized Aluminum vs. Teak Toe Rails*



chef2sail said:


> I prefer the solution our C&C has with the stanchiins bases attached to our anodized toe rail. There is never a core or bedding issue this way. Any boat with full toe rails bow to stern could employ these
> 
> Dave


This sounds like a more stable solution. Would the toerails not have to be aluminum rather than teak though?


----------



## Grand River Raider

RobGallagher said:


> I have noticed that the asking price of used boats is in line with what most have posted here. Sabre asks the highest price, followed by C&C, Tartan, Pearson, Ericson, Catalina, Jeanneau, Hunter, etc.
> 
> That is not to say that it is an exact science and there are TONS of variables. Demand plays as much a part as build quality I would expect. Three are so many more Catalina and Hunter 30's on the market than, say, Tartan 3000's or C&C 30's that it must play some part in the asking price.
> 
> I'm still looking and the more I look the more confused I get.
> 
> Getting aboard a boat and actually sailing on it can help take it off your short list, or hopefully, make you fall in love with it and shorten the process.
> 
> I looked at two C&C 30MKII's thinking I would fall in love. One had issues that needed professional repair, mid-summer in a busy yard, not something I wanted to get involved in. The other was in much rougher shape than the photo's and description reflected. Very much a let down.
> 
> I recently sailed on a Tartan 34 and it's a nice boat, but I just didn't fall in love with it so I took it off me short list
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> Tons of variables is right!! The more I read and write on these posts though, the more my list is winnowing down. Certainly, getting on the boats and sailing them would be most helpful.
> 
> By Tartan 34, I presume you mean the 34-2 and not the 34-2? Both very good boats, but pretty different in styling and accomodations. I had a chance to sail on a 34-2 and it was a very nice boat. I like the exterior lines, but I'm not entirely sold on the interior. Something about the Tartan 34-2 and 33 interiors feels cramped and dark to me. Certainly, the heavy use of teak, especially on the 33 is a contributing factor. It remains on my list, but not as high as I had it initially.
> 
> 
> 
> JimsCAL said:
> 
> 
> 
> GRR, I personally would be comfortable with a boat that had that core work done. However, I would still absolutely have my own survey to verify the results. Some moisture in the deck is almost a given in any boat older than 10 years of so. It's just a question of how much and what it will take to fix it. I think you will like the Pearson 31-2. Nice layout for a boat of that size and a good sailing boat.
> 
> 
> 
> This is re-assuring. I will certainly have a survey done on any boat I make an offer on and I will do a sea trial despite my novice sailor status, as that was the was the overwhelming recommendation of posters.
Click to expand...


----------



## chef2sail

Yes the toerails are anodized aluminum. It allows for blocks such as a preventor, frnders to be put on it also.

The stanchion bases fit over the toerail, with a grove in the stanchion base, then bolted on ( quite stable. You also have more room on your gunwales as the stantions do not take up space on them or have the proplem with the stanchions working their way and destroying the fiberglass through time. Here is a picture. South shore yachts has them and they can be fitted on other boats (toerails) other than C&C,s

Dave

http://www.southshoreyachts.com/album/images/typebbase2(lg).gif


----------



## chef2sail

> Three are so many more Catalina and Hunter 30's on the market than, say, Tartan 3000's or C&C 30's that it must play some part in the asking price.-RobGallagher


One of the reason there are more Catalinas and Hunters is that they made so many more. They are true production boats.

Build quality is very important. I have upgraded my electronics and many systems as the years go buy so the add ons on my boat are sometimes way more advancaed than a 90,s or 2000 boat. The hull and boat are solid.
Narrow your choices to three and then find the best conditioned sailboat you can find.

Dave


----------



## Grand River Raider

chef2sail said:


> Yes the toerails are anodized aluminum. It allows for blocks such as a preventor, frnders to be put on it also.
> 
> The stanchion bases fit over the toerail, with a grove in the stanchion base, then bolted on ( quite stable. You also have more room on your gunwales as the stantions do not take up space on them or have the proplem with the stanchions working their way and destroying the fiberglass through time. Here is a picture. South shore yachts has them and they can be fitted on other boats (toerails) other than C&C,s
> 
> Dave
> 
> http://www.southshoreyachts.com/album/images/typebbase2(lg).gif


Dave,

Thanks for the link to the stanchion bases. This looks like a good solution and I will definitely keep it in mind when the time comes to re-bed.

GRR


----------



## Grand River Raider

*Pearson 34-1*

So I've located a Pearson 34 that I'm considering going to see. This is a model that has been on my short-list. It is relatively close to where I live compared to the other examples on the market (in fact, if I ended up with this boat I could possibly sail it home rather than having it trucked) and has always been a freshwater boat save for 1 trip to the Bahamas. So that is the upside.

But there are some potential downsides:

1) The broker tells me that the boat was "side-swiped" about twenty years ago. He did not know a lot of detail, other than that he thinks the boat was able to be motored to a boatyard that had an excellent reputation for its work. He said some fiberglass work was done and then the hull was painted. He said you cannot tell by looking at the boat where the collision occurred, so apparently it is at least cosmetically okay. There is no paperwork for this repair. It is a two owner boat and the second owner reportedly knew the first owner well enough that he was not concerned about the integrity of the repair (and apparently the first owner) when he purchased the boat. The second owner apparently felt confident enough in the integrity of the hull to take the boat to the Bahamas.

2) This boat has the original Universal 5416 engine which rates at 16hp. It was pulled 3-4 years ago and completely rebuilt to the tune of about 3k. So, how long could I expect a rebuilt engine to last (ballpark)? I know the issue of underpowering has been debated elsewhere about the 16hp in a Pearson 
34, with some folks saying you should always go with the 2hp/1,000lbs rule while others said that 16hp was good enough for Bill Shaw. I'm concerned about difficulty motoring in current/swells, although reportedly the current owner has never had difficulty motoring anywhere and felt confident enough to take it to the Bahamas and back.

3) All the electronics work, but are old so would need replaced in the coming years. Also, the main and genoa would likely need replaced in the next few years, but not immediately.

The boat is priced 7-10k below other examples that have bigger engines and more upgrades, but in the same ball park as some other examples with similar engines.

Worth a look or keep movin' on?

GRR


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## Ajax_MD

blt2ski said:


> A lot of boats to a degree were more heavily built if you will back in the 80s vs today. I can compare my 85 jeanneau to a current one, there ARE some differences. I have seen similar in Bene's also. Hunter might be the only one that seemed to have some issues with 80's builds IIRC. There was a decade that they were not too good!
> 
> Otherwise, frankly, look at the maintenance of the boat vs brand. Not that it has been mentioned, but after 20-30 yrs, you will find some badly built Hunters that will be better overall than a GREATLY built swan of that vintage.....assuming you look hard enough!
> 
> Reality is, ANY of the major producton built brands from that era will be good. Try to figure out boat style and type vs brand. Ericson has some race/cruisers, and some that were just plain cruisers! The latter would not be a first choice for me and how I sail. But I know of a fellow across puget sound that luvs his E30Cruiser! He wrote and had published a review int he most recent issue of Cruising World. He also writes for GOB too. I personally look for race/crusiers.
> 
> I would also not look too bad on A4's, they seem to be good motors for what they were designed and intended to do etc.
> 
> Marty


Indeed. You're taking all the fun out of this, GRR!  The world is your oyster right now, there are so many great boats to choose from.

+1 on the Atomic Bomb. They are less expensive to maintain than a diesel, parts and online support are readily available over at the Moyer Marine forum. They are casting engine blocks and cylinder heads again! Although primative, they are easily upgradable to electric fuel pumps and electronic ignition.

Don't get me wrong, diesel engines are good too and if my boat had come with one, I wouldn't rip it out for an Atomic 4 unless the diesel was dying, obsolete AND inadequate to the task of pushing the boat.


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## puddinlegs

So I've located a Pearson 34 that I'm considering going to see. This is a model that has been on my short-list. It is relatively close to where I live compared to the other examples on the market (in fact, if I ended up with this boat I could possibly sail it home rather than having it trucked) and has always been a freshwater boat save for 1 trip to the Bahamas. So that is the upside.

But there are some potential downsides:

*1) The broker tells me that the boat was "side-swiped" about twenty years ago. He did not know a lot of detail, other than that he thinks the boat was able to be motored to a boatyard that had an excellent reputation for its work. He said some fiberglass work was done and then the hull was painted. He said you cannot tell by looking at the boat where the collision occurred, so apparently it is at least cosmetically okay. There is no paperwork for this repair. It is a two owner boat and the second owner reportedly knew the first owner well enough that he was not concerned about the integrity of the repair (and apparently the first owner) when he purchased the boat. The second owner apparently felt confident enough in the integrity of the hull to take the boat to the Bahamas.*

That's the beauty of fiberglass. It's relatively easy to repair. So long as the repairs are good, I don't know that I'd be concerned enough NOT to go have a look a the boat.

*2) This boat has the original Universal 5416 engine which rates at 16hp. It was pulled 3-4 years ago and completely rebuilt to the tune of about 3k. So, how long could I expect a rebuilt engine to last (ballpark)? I know the issue of underpowering has been debated elsewhere about the 16hp in a Pearson 
34, with some folks saying you should always go with the 2hp/1,000lbs rule while others said that 16hp was good enough for Bill Shaw. I'm concerned about difficulty motoring in current/swells, although reportedly the current owner has never had difficulty motoring anywhere and felt confident enough to take it to the Bahamas and back.*

Hard to say. Ask who did the work. If you make an offer, have the engine surveyed.

*3) All the electronics work, but are old so would need replaced in the coming years. Also, the main and genoa would likely need replaced in the next few years, but not immediately.

The boat is priced 7-10k below other examples that have bigger engines and more upgrades, but in the same ball park as some other examples with similar engines.*

A new main and genoa will cost you nearly the 7k difference in price. Add some electronics upgrades, and you're well into the pricing for boats with better electronics and sails. It's up to you. Remember, there's the asking price, and there's what you offer. If you like the boat but the sails are in poor condition, then subtract that cost from your offer. The worse the current owner will say is "no". They might also make a reasonable counter offer as well.

*Worth a look or keep movin' on?*

Again, why not go have a look? It's not a bad way to spend part of a day. You might see some other boats at the dock that look interesting. Buying a boat is a process. So long as you're not in a rush, you'll find something that suits both you and your budget.


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## blt2ski

Personally, If the boat is overall in good shape, but as mentioned, electronics and sails are old.....you have the chance to put in what YOUR WANT! not what is already there! You may find yourself hooked up with a local YC< doing some club racing. have brand new dacron sails, and in two years are buying some pentex sails! With old ones, those could be the cruise daysail sails, or you buy a decent pentex/string main as I have, get some race sails, and a cruise jib as i wanted, not what they wanted! Electronics were the same on my boat, old, sorta worked, I put in what I wanted. 

It was more fun in my book doing it this route. And yes, the boat was price accordingly!

Marty


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## funjohnson

Just to add to the list of cost associated with sailing... I bought a fairly clean boat to start with, but the itch for new toys and upgrades have been severe.

I bought the boat for $55250 and have spent over $25,000 in the past year and a half. Very little, maybe $2000, has been repairing anything... the rest has all been upgrades. Really, I cannot believe I have spent even half of that. I just adds up way too fast!

Here is a link to cost up to may of this year:

Matt & Jessica's Sailing Page » COST


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## patrscoe

Although I can't specifically speak for Sabre but I think you will find a common difference with most sailboat builders from models in the 70's to early 80's vs late 80's to 90's. 
Older sailboats tend to have a modest beam but heavy displacement vs a wide beam but light displacement (compared to older models). Both will have a different feel while sailing and it becomes a personal preference.
It is a buyers market right now so you will be able to take advantage of some good deals... but good built sailboats will not drop a whole lot. I was thinking of getting a larger sailboat this year with a budget of $35k-$40k (Always loved the older Tartan 37s) but everyone I looked at within this range needed work or was not maintain well. Realistic budget would have been more like $55k plus some extra money for upgrades / rigging refit, etc..
Good luck!


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## patrscoe

Matt: great cost analysis. I am currently going through our P35 this fall/winter from bow to stern... I have not even started yet and I have already spent $4,000. I think there is a initial costs incurred which is buying the sailboat and then the recurring costs and constant upgrades and upkeep, and wants and needs.


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## funjohnson

patrscoe said:


> Matt: great cost analysis. I am currently going through our P35 this fall/winter from bow to stern... I have not even started yet and I have already spent $4,000. I think there is a initial costs incurred which is buying the sailboat and then the recurring costs and constant upgrades and upkeep, and wants and needs.


It's amazing how fast the price gets away from you. Our only fairly large purchases have been davits, windlass, watermaker and solar... everything else have been $100 here and $100 there.

We still need to redo the standing rigging and purchase a new radar and chartplotter. I'm guessing I have at least another $5000 to put into it before we are ready to leave for the islands.


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## puddinlegs

funjohnson said:


> Just to add to the list of cost associated with sailing... I bought a fairly clean boat to start with, but the itch for new toys and upgrades have been severe.
> 
> I bought the boat for $55250 and have spent over $25,000 in the past year and a half. Very little, maybe $2000, has been repairing anything... the rest has all been upgrades. Really, I cannot believe I have spent even half of that. I just adds up way too fast!
> 
> Here is a link to cost up to may of this year:
> 
> Matt & Jessica's Sailing Page » COST


Amazing. You can do your bottom with only 2 quarts of VC17m?


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## blt2ski

Mark,

It would not surprise me Matt could do his bottom with 2 qts of paint, assuming only once coat with some double layers, ie front of keel/waterline etc. I used all of 3-3.5 qts last feb with 2 full coats all around, and 4 at the waterline, leading/trailing edges of the keel and rudder. There were some notes in my OM from the originl owner that said something like 5 qts to paint the bottom. Maybe Matt and I were less liberal per coat than some?!?!?!?

Marty


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## arf145

Grand River Raider said:


> ...they hired a company called Dry Boat (ever heard of this?) to fix the problem.
> 
> ... would the gaskets remain or would this be replaced by something else?


Sorry for the delay--been away--but it looks like you've been covered. But no, never heard of Dry Boat. I thought that the decks on Pearsons, of the late 80's at least, had no core out at the toerail and for a couple of inches in.

Tossed my gaskets and just bedded with butyl--the gaskets will always allow too much flex.


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## Grand River Raider

*A local company*



arf145 said:


> Sorry for the delay--been away--but it looks like you've been covered. But no, never heard of Dry Boat. I thought that the decks on Pearsons, of the late 80's at least, had no core out at the toerail and for a couple of inches in.
> 
> Tossed my gaskets and just bedded with butyl--the gaskets will always allow too much flex.


No problem. I went to see that Pearson 31-2 last week. It appears that DryBoat was a local company. The owner had a surveyor oversee the entire process and he took before and after moisture readings. They claim it was all fixed, but I was not impressed with some of the after procedure moisture readings in his partial survey report and when I stepped on the deck just to starboard of the mast I could feel flex and hear a crackling noise. The rest of the deck seemed solid.

The P31-2 was a sharp little cruiser, but I think it was a little to small in terms of accomodations. The saloon was nicely laid out for a 31 foot boat, but the V-berth was too tight for 2 in my opinion. Also, the cockpit was also a little smaller than what I wanted, so I'm further narrowing down my search and I'm now focusing in on the early-mid 1980's Pearson 34's. The extra 3 feet allows for a larger cockpit. I've only been on one example, so I will have to check the V-berth more closely for space.


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## Grand River Raider

*Another strategy*



blt2ski said:


> Personally, If the boat is overall in good shape, but as mentioned, electronics and sails are old.....you have the chance to put in what YOUR WANT! not what is already there! You may find yourself hooked up with a local YC< doing some club racing. have brand new dacron sails, and in two years are buying some pentex sails! With old ones, those could be the cruise daysail sails, or you buy a decent pentex/string main as I have, get some race sails, and a cruise jib as i wanted, not what they wanted! Electronics were the same on my boat, old, sorta worked, I put in what I wanted.
> 
> It was more fun in my book doing it this route. And yes, the boat was price accordingly!
> 
> Marty


Yes, Marty, this would be another good way to do it if the boat is priced accordingly to start with and is definitely something to consider, especially when electronics go out of date so quickly and will likely need replacing on many of the boats available. Of the examples of the Pearson 34's on the market now, the lower priced versions tend to have the 16 hp Universal diesels. A bit of a concern for underpowering and not so easily replaced as a set of sails.


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## Grand River Raider

*Beam and Displacement Differences*



patrscoe said:


> Although I can't specifically speak for Sabre but I think you will find a common difference with most sailboat builders from models in the 70's to early 80's vs late 80's to 90's.
> Older sailboats tend to have a modest beam but heavy displacement vs a wide beam but light displacement (compared to older models). Both will have a different feel while sailing and it becomes a personal preference.
> It is a buyers market right now so you will be able to take advantage of some good deals... but good built sailboats will not drop a whole lot. I was thinking of getting a larger sailboat this year with a budget of $35k-$40k (Always loved the older Tartan 37s) but everyone I looked at within this range needed work or was not maintain well. Realistic budget would have been more like $55k plus some extra money for upgrades / rigging refit, etc..
> Good luck!


Yes, you can see the change in design for some of these boats in the mid to late 1980's from narrower beam-heavier displacement to wider beam-lighter (relatively) displacement. For example, Pearson 35 has a beam of 10' while a 36-2 (production started in 1985) is over 12 feet.

The Tartan 37's appear to be very nice boats and have quite a following, but a well kept example will be north of 60K.

I'm focusing in on the 34-35 foot range looking at Pearsons and maybe some of the Ericsons, but there are fewer of these nearby. I like the Sabre 34's, but they are pricier and seemingly harder to find in a shallow draft at this point. Checked out the C & C's, but aesthetically they are not pleasing to me.


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## T37Chef

Grand River Raider said:


> The Tartan 37's appear to be very nice boats and have quite a following, but a well kept example will be north of 60K.


I happen to be very fond of them


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## Grand River Raider

*The joy of a good relationship*



T37Chef said:


> I happen to be very fond of them


And that is a good thing or it would make for a less than satisfying relationship with your boat! I had scheduled a showing of a T37 in Maine, but cancelled it as I wasn't sure a 37 footer was such a great idea for a first boat. Of course, opinions of other sailors ranged from start small and work your way up to "go for it." I may still go look at one that is for sale nearby, but it may be a stretch for a first boat.


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## T37Chef

Nay, go for it! We went from a crappy little 20' Buccaneer (value= $500) to the T37 and more than pleased we did so...I was able to eliminate twofootitis. You can always make up grades to a boat as you go, but its really hard to add 2 feet here and there  LOL


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## Grand River Raider

T37Chef said:


> Nay, go for it! We went from a crappy little 20' Buccaneer (value= $500) to the T37 and more than pleased we did so...I was able to eliminate twofootitis. You can always make up grades to a boat as you go, but its really hard to add 2 feet here and there  LOL


Unless you are really into serious fiberglass work! 

Eliminating two- to three footitis has been one of the criteria. I'm starting to settle into the idea of a boat in the 34-35 ft range (I like the Pearson 34), but my eye still wanders a bit to the T37. Obviously you love your boat and most T37 owners do, but do you find the interior a bit dark and gloomy with all the teak? I've not been on a T37, but I've been on a few T33 with all teak interiors and while the wood is beautiful, it also makes for a dark (and perhaps adds to the perception of a cramped) interior.


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## T37Chef

I love wood, dark woods especially, so no I doesn't bother me at all. To each their own. Some owners have lightened the interior in different ways, most often around the ports either painting or replacing the teak. I replaced my headliner a few years ago with a semi gloss white. 

The Pearson's are fine yachts, a marina neighbor has a P33, I love it.


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## Grand River Raider

T37Chef said:


> I love wood, dark woods especially, so no I doesn't bother me at all. To each their own. Some owners have lightened the interior in different ways, most often around the ports either painting or replacing the teak. I replaced my headliner a few years ago with a semi gloss white.
> 
> The Pearson's are fine yachts, a marina neighbor has a P33, I love it.


Absolutely, to each their own. I really love dark woods too in general. The headliner is a nice way to brighten the space a bit...was your previous headliner dark?

The P33 has fairly similar lines to the older 34, but the layout in the 34 is more traditional. Both nice boats. I also was on a very well kept 1972 P35. The boat had a huge cockpit, but the narrower beam typical of boats of that era and the galley stretched across the companionway and stairs...not sure I could get used to people walking through the cooking area


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## T37Chef

The OEM headliner was just faded and dirty, replacing was pretty simple and low cost = good value


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## BLLsail

Am looking at a classic C&C 35 Mark II any ideas hard to find a good one with a diesel but they are elegant ?? Vs Ericson 35 Mark III for Tartan 33 or Sabre 36 ?? Al different prices and How about a classic Tartan 34 C


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## chef2sail

I am a bit prejudiced as I own a C&C 35 MKIII. The Erickson and the Sabre are equals in build quality, comfort, speed. Their sailing characateristic are similar. These boats make excellent cruising boats as they can be handled by a couple and are comfortable inside as well as safe outside for coastal cruising. In many ways the perfect size. I often times singlehand mine

When I purchased Haleakula 15 years ago it was between four boats the fourth was a Tartan 37, They are all beautiful racer cruisers. If you can find an C&C 35MKIII model there were hull mods which helped them in speed. Send pics

We average well over 3000 nm on her every year between the Chesapeake and a trip out the coast in the Atlantic to Long Island Sound and New England.

Find the one in the best over all shape.

Dave


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## T37Chef

3000 NM? really.


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## chef2sail

T37Chef said:


> 3000 NM? really.


Do the math my friend

And this is just Donna and I and doesnt count when I go out by myself

30 weekends March 15 -December 15 Nine months actually has 39 weekends so I elimated 9. ( conservative, as we do a few 3 or 4 day weekends in there also) averaging 50 miles per weekend ( 25 mi each way) = 30X 50=1500 nm.

From Rock Creek (round trip)Straight line distances
Greys Inn Creek Chester- 53 miles
Cacaway obn Langford Creek- 59.4 miles
Shaw Bay St Micheals , Wye River ( through the Kent Narrows)- 64 mi. Long 
way- 78miles
West/ Rhode River- 53 miles
Annapolis- 44 miles
Worton Creek- 33 miles
Still Pond- 42 miles
Betterton Sassafras -48 miles
Turner Creek Sassafras- 60 miles

Then we take a long three week plus trip to the LI Sound/ and beyond and back...(450 (900 round trip) mi just one way to Newport, RI , stopping at Cape May, Barnegat, Sandy Hook, Port Jefferson, Greenport and then Newport) We always havbe at least 6 or seven other stops adding at least another 200-300 miles rt). Last year this trip was closer to 1600 miles as we visited Montauk and also went up the Conneticut River to Essex.

Shawn, We have averaged 2500-3250 nm the last 7 years and we keep a log. Weve put 20,000 nm on Haleakula in the last 7 years.


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## T37Chef

Immpressive...I think, or maybe obsessed  LOL


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## chef2sail

T37Chef said:


> Immpressive...I think, or maybe obsessed  LOL


I know when I fugured it out one day a few years back I was amazed kind of too. Its my therapy, passion, obsession, intellectual challenge, and serenity all wrapped up in one.

You of all should know we are never at the club on weekends we are anchored somewhere

Both...I am on a mission as you know...to get Donna experience.:laugher:laugher I am so fortunate she loves it too. I feel sorry for my friends whose wives arent interested. Makes it tough. Its amazing to see what shes learned in 7+ years. Like anything the mnore experiences, the more confidence she gets.

I have enjoyed every minute of it and am glad we are healthy enough to do so.


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