# Old Keel bolt repair



## alanr77 (Jul 24, 2009)

As I am preparing the boat for her trip to a marina for haul out and refit this winter, I am making a list of all the fun things I have to do to her this year. I pretty much have a plan for how I will do everything except for the following;

I have read countless articles on how to repair the keel bolts on a Catalina 30. I understand how to cut out the floor, remove the wood and install a plate to prevent the "smile". However, when inspecting the keel bolts, I am confused as to what action is required to repair my bolts. I have never seen anything like what is on my bolts. It almost looks like someone put welding slag on the bolts. I can't even begin to see how I will put a socket on these. Take a look at the pictures, any idea's?

Catalina 30 tech pictures by alanr77 - Photobucket


----------



## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Looks like an extreme example of rusty stainless! Scary! How about a hole saw the size of the bolt and just saw the the nuts off? Hole saw may not be deep enough so the bolt ends would have to be shortened..


----------



## LakeSuperiorGeezer (Oct 8, 2010)

I would get a Dremel cut-off wheel with appropriate mandrel for a size that fits the center hole in the cut-off wheel. The Dremel 456 1-1/2" fiberglass reinforced wheel is an example. It's small enough to get into a tight space and with enough time you can cut through a good size bolt. I would cut the bolt flush and try driving the bolt out with a punch. If that does not work, try drilling it out. First start with a pilot drill of about 1/8 inch and then follow with a 5/16 inch and then whatever the original bolt size. You could also try dissolving the rust with muriatic acid diluted ten to one. You could replace the keel bolts with silicon bronze. Even galvanized works better that stainless for keel bolts because stainless has about the same corrosion resistance as an ordinary steel bolt in an anaerobic environment where air cannot get to the stainless to create the protective coating.


----------



## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

They have to be replaced - cut the nuts off and drop the keel. The big problem is replacing them as they can't just be unwound from the keel due to their shape.


----------



## alanr77 (Jul 24, 2009)

Great...just what I didn't want to hear. I don't feel that I can drop the keel off this boat. That is a huge undertaking that costs far more than the boat is worth. Am I wrong? If I understand correctly, the keel bolts- iron not stainless in a 1976- are installed when the keel is cast. There has to be another way. The boat currently does not show any signs of the C smile. There is no water leaking. Maybe when the boat is pulled next month and I chisel off the rusted mess on the bolts I will be able to see some sort of threads that I can work with. In addition, maybe when I cut off the top layer of fiberglass to replace the wood I will find decent threads. Just trying to be optimistic. I may have to call Catalina and send them some pictures to see what they suggest. Maybe I am making the cost of replacing the bolts bigger than it actually is. And the story continues.......


----------



## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

Dat NOT good. Dem bolts dey done mon. When exactly they will fail who knows but it looks sooner rather than later to me. You could attack them with a needle gun to see how much good metal is left and paint it if there is some. 

If your conscience allows Ebay it for what you can get. 

As for removing the keel an expert user with a gas axe and a little custom made thin steel protection could cut through those bolts in a couple of minute. Fire extinquisher to hand of course. Other wise forget the dremel, a three or 4 inch angle grinder with a cut off disc and just grind of the heads.


----------



## alanr77 (Jul 24, 2009)

Update, Catalina Yachts is amazing. I sent them an email and got a response from an engineer in less than 12 hours. P/N's, diagrams and instructions. All this for a 36 year old boat. I guess thats why they have been in business for so long. Anyway, next month I am going to cut away the wood and fiberglass above the keel. Hopefully there are some threads remaining under the mess in the pictures. I will then install 7 12" lag bolts into the keel with stainless steel plates with washers as support. I figure between the original bond between the keel and the hull, the remaining holding force of the original bolts plus the added lag bolts, I should be fine. Having spent a few hours researching this subject, I don't think there has been any documented cases of a C-30 keel falling off. This is somewhat comforting as I was really upset about the serious setback with this boat. Now that I have a plan I guess we will see how it turns out. I will take lots of pictures and video of the keel bolt repair, keel stub wood removal and keel crack repair. I will then save this in a file that I can share with anyone dealing with the same issues.


----------



## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

After you cut out the wood build up the glass in thickness with roving or biaxial, going well up the sides of the keel stub for added strength - to replace the strength that was supposed to be created by the wood layer originally.


----------



## CatalinaRob (Jun 25, 2010)

check out this link for details on this repair:

The famous


----------



## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

There is a recent discussion of this process in the "General" forum under "Morgan 35...."

Those photos look like you have rusted steel bolts bursting from under resin encapsulation. If that is the case, do you have an iron keel?

An iron keel makes it a pretty simple, albeit big job to replace the bolts. Properly replacing the bolts in an iron keel is a much better way to go than sistering and it is very do-able by oneself - I did it on a 10,000 lb. keel (with help from heavy equipment of course). You are then back to new, not just patched up.

Check out the thread I referred to and get back here with any comments or questions


----------



## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Catalina 30's have lead keels.


----------



## alanr77 (Jul 24, 2009)

Come to think of it, the original keel mount is simply 4500 pounds or so mounted to 1/2-5/8" of fiberglass with a 1/2" wood spacer in between it all. This is all held on by 8 threaded studs with tiny washers. Apparently the keel bolts are not under immense stress. The bond between the keel and hull must be pretty strong by itself. I figure that if Catalina recommends lag bolts, there must be some merit to it. I inspected this boat while out of the water, along with a surveyer and we found no separation at the keel joint. Something is holding this together. Looking at the keel bolts and the condition of the wood in between, I doubt it is only the keel bolts doing this. Having said that, I dont see how lag bolts, drilled down 12" and backed by serious plates would fail. The alternate process that Catalina suggested was to install new studs next to the old ones. However, this involves drilling large holes in the side of the keel that from the experiences of other sailers, is a constant source of leaks. Thanks for the idea's so far. AR


----------



## Edcat30 (Oct 29, 2011)

Hello Alanr77

I have a similar issue with my keel bolts, would you be willing to share the diagrams, p/n & instructions Catalina sent you?

Thank you.
Edward


----------



## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

The keel bolts are doing most of the work - the sealant is there only to keep the join water tight. The weak point is the plywood that should not ever have been used. The best fix is to drop the keel and remove the plywood. replacing it with a heavy glass and epoxy layup. 

If the plywood is dry it will last a few years but if (when) it gets wet the keel will move.


----------



## alanr77 (Jul 24, 2009)

Edcat, here is the email they sent, I will PM the attachments or try to attach them here. AR.

"Alan,
Attached is a drawing showing how lag bolts can be sistered in to help reinforce the existing keel bolts. We typically recommend using 1/2" x 10" lag bolts equally spaced between the existing bolts. You pre drill with 27/64" bit and then screw in the lag bolts. The older boats had wood in the keel stub and some have found that the threads are ok in the areas were the wood was, when the wood is removed (only necessary if it has become rotten).

Good Sailing,

Kent Nelson 
Engineering Department 
Catalina Yachts 
21200 Victory Blvd. 
Woodland Hills, CA 91367 
(818) 884-7700 ext. 237 
(818) 884-3810 Fax 
Yachts and boats for sale - Catalina Yachts


----------



## alanr77 (Jul 24, 2009)

As usual, life has gotten in the way and I have yet to pull the boat out. I have been having issues with getting the boat transported to a yard that will allow me to work on it. Georgia is NOT a boat friendly place to be. All in all, it seems I will have to get the boat hauled at one yard, trucked 1/2 mile to another so that I dont have to pay $35 a day storage and $3000 for a bottom job. I will still document the keel and mast step repairs when I do. As ugly as my keel bolts are, we dove under the boat last week and inspected the keel to hull joint. After 1 year there is no crack. Whatever condition the bolts are in, they are still holding. The lag bolts may now be a solution. More to follow...


----------



## Edcat30 (Oct 29, 2011)

Hi Alanr77

I had a problem, less than 15 posts so I cant reply and needed to post here.

Could you use the following email : [email protected]

Thank you
Edward


----------



## Siamese (May 9, 2007)

One look at the picture of your keel bolts and the first thing I could think of is ANTIBIOTICS
And maybe be a little more selective with regard to crew members in the future. Ugh.


----------



## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Alan, lag bolts sound like a very practical solution, especially when the builder says it will work. The conventional repair is to sister in new keel bolts, drilling down into the keel and then crosswise to attch bolts or bend hooks into the bottom of the new bolts, and refilling the holes in the keel with new lead or epoxy. A LOT MORE WORK than installing lag bolts, arguably no better result.

Bear in mind that is you are drilling into a lead keel that makes lead dust, hazmat and toxic to breath. The procedure there is usually to use drilling mud (i.e. grease or lube) so that no dust comes out of the holes are you are working, and a particle mask would be good insurance anyway.

I expect you'll need to rent a large drill to make that job go fast, and simply buy a nice shiny sharp new bit for the holes.


----------



## alanr77 (Jul 24, 2009)

Siamese: You think that's bad, you should have seen the result of me trying to remove a torn, full, 15 year old flexible holding tank. (Why do people use these???) Not pretty and the resulting infection within my knee warranted a trip to the ER. I'm lucky I still have "crew mates"...

Edward: the "s" has me confused. Is it your user name?

HelloS: Catalina direct is now selling a "kit"..albeit a high priced one that requires only a hand drill. I can't see how this could drill a straight hole however without building a guide. I may create a homemade "press" to attach my drill to. I am aware of the lead and will take proper precautions. This whole task does not seem very daunting and seems to be well within the scope of my abilities. I am however very curious as to what things will look like underneath the top layer of fiberglass. The fun one will be the two bolts under my engine.


----------



## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

alan-
Only two bolts under the engine? Sounds like the instructions to change the oil on the Porsche Boxster: First, jack the engine...
Think of this an a good excuse to install new engine mounts, which will absorb more vibration, and reconfirm your propshaft alignment. 
I'm sure a hand drill eventually will do it, and if the bolt isn't perfectly plumb it will still take load. Still...two years ago I had to have a discussion with a concrete wall and I bought a genuine impact drill, light commercial grade, because the wall wasn't near my home and my trusty Craftsman drill. Funny thing, having the right tool with the right power behind it made the job trivial. The average 1/4" or 3/8" home drill...let me guess, are they using three inch bolts or four? (sigh). I can't pretend to know if you'd even really need more than that, I'd just *suspect* the lagbolts should be as long as the real keel bolts, and I'd be shocked if those weren't over a foot long. Big hole for a home drill.

But there are drill guides for some drills, from some makers. Not very expensive, just not something that's always in stock.


----------



## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

10" bolts with a hand drill in lead? 

A good 1/2' electric with a low speed (500 rpm) and a lot of torque would be my choice. $500 or $600 where I am. Maybe you can rent it.

And if the plywood is wet all vbets are off - it should be removed and replaced with epoxy and roving to the same thickness.

As far as "especially when the builder says it will work" - remember the builder was the one who did it wrong to start with.


----------



## Edcat30 (Oct 29, 2011)

Hi Alanr77

Sorry for the confusion. [email protected] (there are 2 _ _ after both the "d" and "s" which can cause confusion).

If the email [email protected] still causes issues please try the following email: [email protected]

Thank you for your help, and I am sorry for the issues.
Edward


----------



## alanr77 (Jul 24, 2009)

Edcat, email sent.


----------



## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"remember the builder was the one who did it wrong to start with. "
What, 30-40 years with zero owner maintenance, and you call that wrong? I know, they should have used bronze, but buyers WANTED lean shiny modern faultless stainless steel parts back then. You probably couldn't give away a boat with obsolete [sic] bronze hardware at that time.

In most US cities there are tool rental stores, and the big box hardware stores rent out commercial grade equipment for DIYers by the day or half. Almost anything, inlcuding drill bits for masonry and other large jobs. But oddly enough, no battery cable crimpers.

Maybe there's a business opportunity to be had, franchising out "Crimps-R-Us" shops?


----------



## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

As far as the builder doing it the wrong way, I was referring to plywood in the keel stub. When it gets wet - not if - it rots and the bolts sink into it causing the keel/hull joint to open. 

Most major builders use stainless for keel bolts and if inspected every so often they are ok.


----------



## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Ah, plywood. 

And no automatic bilge drier, either. Tsk, tsk. 

I blame these things on Reddy Kilowatt. That lying SOB promised us all we'd have nuclear reactors the size of a small hot water heater by the 80's, and dirt cheap endless clean electric power. Where is he now, 30+ years overdue?!


----------



## SailingWebGuy (May 5, 2010)

I just replaced my keel stub and installed the lag bolts a little over a month ago. I also have a 76. Hull # 249. I found more layers in the keel stub than Catalina described and showed on the drawing they provided. 

There were actually two layers of plywood separated by REALLY hard grey material. It's harder than concrete although it looks a lot like it. I tried a ton of different tools to remove the grey stuff. Nothing worked well. I ended up having to beat it out with a hammer and wood chisel...took forever. There was another layer of the grey material below the second layer of plywood. Then finally fiberglass and lead below that. In all, I ended up cutting out about 4 to five inches of keel stub.

FYI - The lag bolts were extremely difficult to install in the 27/64" hole. My pneumatic impact gun couldn't drive them down. I had to bore out the holes a tiny bit. Still couldn't get them in all the way. I finally borrowed a massive Dewalt impact gun and it even struggled with one of the lag bolts. 

It's not a fun project but I'm really glad I did it after seeing all the rotten wood that came out of there.


----------



## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

I wouldn't try to install lag bolts of that size with a drill. A nice whopping big ratchet or other wrench, with the longest handle you can find, or a length of pipe added to exend the handle. Torque! Nothing beats it.


----------



## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

hellosailor said:


> Bear in mind that is you are drilling into a lead keel that makes lead dust, hazmat and toxic to breath. The procedure there is usually to use drilling mud (i.e. grease or lube) so that no dust comes out of the holes are you are working, and a particle mask would be good insurance anyway.
> 
> I expect you'll need to rent a large drill to make that job go fast, and simply buy a nice shiny sharp new bit for the holes.


When drilling lead with a *sharp* bit there is no discernible `dust` - it drills with lovely long curls of lead. Wearing face protection is advisable when drilling anything but you really don`t have to worry about the toxicity of lead IMHO unless you are a pro doing a lot of it regularly.


----------



## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

alanr77 said:


> HelloS: Catalina direct is now selling a "kit"..albeit a high priced one that requires only a hand drill. I can't see how this could drill a straight hole however without building a guide. I may create a homemade "press" to attach my drill to.


Just drill through a block of wood first, preferably in a drill press, then clamp it down so the hole is over the spot you want to drill. By the time your drill has bottomed out on the block the hole will be deep enough in the keel to keep things straight after removing the block.

Clamping it down is usually the easier said than done part of this procedure.


----------



## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

SailingWebGuy said:


> There were actually two layers of plywood separated by REALLY hard grey material. It's harder than concrete although it looks a lot like it. I tried a ton of different tools to remove the grey stuff. Nothing worked well. I ended up having to beat it out with a hammer and wood chisel...took forever. There was another layer of the grey material below the second layer of plywood. Then finally fiberglass and lead below that. In all, I ended up cutting out about 4 to five inches of keel stub.


I`d bet that hard grey stuff was asbestos & resin. It was a very popular filler back then. Diamond hard after curing if it was mixed thick.



SailingWebGuy said:


> FYI - The lag bolts were extremely difficult to install in the 27/64" hole. My pneumatic impact gun couldn't drive them down. I had to bore out the holes a tiny bit. Still couldn't get them in all the way. I finally borrowed a massive Dewalt impact gun and it even struggled with one of the lag bolts.


When doing a job like this I always use a machinists caliper to check the minor diameter of the thread I am drilling for. Galvanizing has big variations in thickness and I drill for what I actually have in my hand. For example, Catalina might have come up with their recommendation by using electro-galvanized bolts which have a thin, almost shiny coating but if you were to use hot dipped, they would have the usual thick, somewhat coarse finish and would far prefer a slightly bigger hole.

Considering what materials you are working with, I`d be reluctant to use anything other than a long breaker bar to turn the socket. You SHOULD be able to run them in by hand. Using a 500 Ft. Lb. impact gun seems to me to be asking for something to strip or shear off. You ain`t bolting a bridge together.


----------



## SailingWebGuy (May 5, 2010)

hellosailor said:


> I wouldn't try to install lag bolts of that size with a drill. A nice whopping big ratchet or other wrench, with the longest handle you can find, or a length of pipe added to exend the handle. Torque! Nothing beats it.


I tried that too.


----------



## SailingWebGuy (May 5, 2010)

SloopJonB

Used stainless lags.


----------



## Edcat30 (Oct 29, 2011)

Hey folks.

So I have started to cut out the material and pulled all the wood out. I am now down to a layer of light brown material. It looks like resin and thickener. 

Should I continue to dig down to fiberglass?

How far down should I expect to dig before I hit fiberglass bottom of the hull?

Or should I stop here and start the repair IAW Catalina diagram? 

Edward


----------

