# drinking and sailing



## ScottUK (Aug 16, 2009)

Not sure if this has been posted before but this is a strong argument about drinking and sailing not to mention the other mistakes.

Sailing Accident Documentary | Split Second - Tragedy at Sea - FactualTV


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## SimonV (Jul 6, 2006)

Most of the drinkers I know have a sailing problem.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Couldn't open the story. Received this message:

"Unfortunately this title has been restricted for your territory. We apologise for this and hope you find other titles you like." (incorrect spelling of apologize is theirs)

My first sailing lesson was when I was about 10 years old. A good family friend and former Merchant Marine Captain lowered his dyer dinghy, strapped a pfd on me and showed me how to sail. Capt Bob had a habitual orange juice addiction (which I now know to have been screwdrivers consumed from dawn to dusk every day). 

When we got back from my lesson, my parents asked me how I liked sailing with Capt Bob. From the mouth of babes, I said "He's great, he never spilled a drop". All the adults roared; I didn't get it at the time.

We spent many days aboard together and Capt Bob could maneuver any boat into absolutely any forbidding situation. It was said, he could never do it sober, since he never had. Capt Bob died at about the age of 60. I recall it seeming very very old at the time. He was much older than 60 should be.


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## ScottUK (Aug 16, 2009)

Too bad you couldn't open it up. Internet should be censor free. Anyway it is the true story of a delivery where two of the crew had indulged excessively and when their boat went down in a storm they ended up in a dinghy and were severely dehydrated from the alcohol so started to drink sea water. They eventually started to hallucinate and jumped into the water where hungry sharks had a meal. One other crew memeber died from her injuries and the last two were rescued.


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## MARC2012 (Mar 17, 2008)

I'm with SV.marc


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

ScottUK said:


> Too bad you couldn't open it up. Internet should be censor free. Anyway it is the true story of a delivery where two of the crew had indulged excessively and when their boat went down in a storm they ended up in a dinghy and were severely dehydrated from the alcohol so started to drink sea water. They eventually started to hallucinate and jumped into the water where hungry sharks had a meal. One other crew memeber died from her injuries and the last two were rescued.


Darwin at work I see... If they were on a delivery, they had no business drinking like that. That is both unprofessional and irresponsible.


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## HDChopper (Oct 17, 2010)

Theres just no getting away from "it"...

Glad you survived Minnewaska....


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## ottos (Aug 12, 2008)

ScottUK said:


> Too bad you couldn't open it up. Internet should be censor free. Anyway it is the true story of a delivery where two of the crew had indulged excessively and when their boat went down in a storm they ended up in a dinghy and were severely dehydrated from the alcohol so started to drink sea water. They eventually started to hallucinate and jumped into the water where hungry sharks had a meal. One other crew memeber died from her injuries and the last two were rescued.


That sounds like the sinking of the Trashman - link to previous thread is here


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

This thread shoud be entitled "Getting sh*tfaced and sailing," not "Drinking and sailing." It's one thing to have a beer or two while out on a daysail and quite another to be drunk at sea while in charge of someone else's expensive boat.


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## ScottUK (Aug 16, 2009)

Yes it was the 'Trashman' and figured it had been a topic previously but thought I would provide a link to a docu-drama about it. I'm curious if anybody was able to view it through the link provided.


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## ScottUK (Aug 16, 2009)

Semantics Fstbttms.


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

ScottUK said:


> Semantics Fstbttms.


Sssshhmantics.. Hick!

Our rules have evolved a bit over time. On our boat, "crew" are dry until the anchor is down or we're tied up to the dock. Drinking any alcohol moves you to "passenger". Usually only my relatives have had a beer during a sail. They aren't ever the official person on watch.

Of course, we haven't done any long trips yet that would involve taking shifts.

Regards,
Brad


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## HDChopper (Oct 17, 2010)

Hats off to you Capt. Brad !

That level of seamanship one would expect from all Captains...

There is a time & place for everything...


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

HDChopper said:


> Hats off to you Capt. Brad !
> 
> That level of seamanship one would expect from all Captains...
> 
> There is a time & place for everything...


Thanks HD, but don't give me too much credit. The "crew" is usually my 13 year old son and me. Or it's another sailnet member who (at least this past fall/winter) is already a captain or working toward it.

That and when you've witnessed sip-sip-bang first hand, you want it this way.

Regards,
Brad


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

ScottUK said:


> Not sure if this has been posted before but this is a strong argument about drinking and sailing not to mention the other mistakes.
> 
> Sailing Accident Documentary | Split Second - Tragedy at Sea - FactualTV


I got blocked too. I've never seen that before.

Regards,
Brad


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## flyingwelshman (Aug 5, 2007)

I was able to see the episode.

I enjoy a drink, or two when on the hook or at the marina. I insist that the same is true of my crew and guests.

I haven't experienced an overnight or long passage (more than 12 hours) yet, but I would expect that my philosophy will stay the same.


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## labatt (Jul 31, 2006)

Is it about the boat that went down off of Frying Pan Shoals a few years back? I know there was a whole documentary/movie made about that, and it ended with sea water drinking and sharks.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Sounds like the _Trashman_.


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## RainDog (Jun 9, 2009)

If you listen to "The Moth" podcasts (if you don't, you should), one of the survivors told the story of this event. It was a pretty intense story. Her name was Deborah Scaling Kiley.

This might work: Deborah Scaling Kiley: Lost at Sea - The Moth Podcast - CastRoller


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

I'm quite content to let the skipper decide if I am on someone else's boat but on our boat we use common sense and drink in moderation.

Daysailing I'll have the occasional beer but never more than a beer with lunch and a beer on the run home in the evening. I expect the same from crew even if they are not working the boat. I'm also presuming benign conditions. 

Offshore on passage then a beer before dinner after we have the boat settled down for the night. Most of my offshore stuff has been one night at sea not multiples so we tend to eat in the cockpit and its usually finger food so no wine. If we were on passage for days on end then we'd eat more regular meals and undoubtedly have a glass of wine with dinner. Again presuming benign conditions. 

In both cases if the weather is horrid then thinking about having a beer would be the last thing on my mind.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I never sail out to the gunkhole drunk. I sometimes sail back the next day with a hangover, which may be worse.


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## galynd (Oct 4, 2010)

Soon we'll have MADS.


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## DonScribner (Jan 9, 2011)

*Drinking & sailing in Maine*

I'm not sure how the rest of the planet works, but here in Maine (USA) drinking and sailing bears the same stiff penalty as drinking and driving. I enjoy the occasional libation three miles out, and there's nothing like a cool glass of Chardonnay and a warm woman while at anchor. But to get schnockered while piloting a 15,000 pound floating wrecking ball makes no sense at all. Poor reaction times, impaired judgement, decreased survivability in cold water, poor balance, dehydration . . . need I go on?

Oh, and it's been the same warm woman for 33 years. Good judgement that.


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## rikhall (Feb 7, 2008)

About ten years ago I found myself walking the docks at Rushcutters Bay Marina in Sydney Aus. As circumstance would have it I encountered four blokes about to sail a 42 foot sloop back to Port Hacking. I got talking to the three on board and asked if there might a chance for me to catch a ride with them. There answer was "You'll have to ask Barry, its his boat." At that point they looked behind me and Barry was coming down the dock. "Hey Barry, do we have enough beer to take this Canadian along with us?" That was their only question to Barry.

On the trip, I was appalled to learn that you can sail with open alcohol on board and that you could drink as long as your breath alcohol level was less than 0.08%.

Here is a picture of me at the helm being appalled with their slack drinking laws.










I had a fantastic trip. They were great people, super sailors and wonderful hosts. Three years later I returned with Linda and arranged for another day with the crew. I found out later that they really went out of their way for us, as the ladies don't usually sail with them.

Here's Linda at the helm.










Good on ya, Barry! Fantastic memories!

Rik


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

tdw said:


> I'm quite content to let the skipper decide if I am on someone else's boat but on our boat we use common sense and drink in moderation.
> 
> Daysailing I'll have the occasional beer but never more than a beer with lunch and a beer on the run home in the evening. I expect the same from crew even if they are not working the boat. I'm also presuming benign conditions.
> 
> ...


I'm with you TD. A man's gotta have a nip. Just do it in moderation for crying out loud.

You tee-totalers make me tired.


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## HeartsContent (Sep 14, 2010)

It's ok as long as it's Rum!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Drinking while cruising is one thing...but the OP's article said DELIVERY. Drinking while you're working is just stupid, irresponsible and asking for trouble. Even small amounts of alcohol can impair your balance, judgement, reduce your night vision and have other affects. If you're delivering a boat, there is absolutely not good reason to be drinking.


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## DulceSuerna (May 19, 2010)

galynd said:


> Soon we'll have MADS.


Mothers Against Drunk Sailors, Love it!! uke

Drink Responsibly, Use spill proof mugs!


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

smackdaddy said:


> I'm with you TD. A man's gotta have a nip. Just do it in moderation for crying out loud.
> 
> You tee-totalers make me tired.


yep....thats my thinking exactly.

SD....the vid may have been about a delivery but I didn't take that as the intent of the OP which is why I commented in a general sense. Even so I still think in terms of moderation.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

sailingdog said:


> Drinking while cruising is one thing...but the OP's article said DELIVERY. Drinking while you're working is just stupid, irresponsible and asking for trouble. Even small amounts of alcohol can impair your balance, judgement, reduce your night vision and have other affects. If you're delivering a boat, there is absolutely not good reason to be drinking.


Yeah, but total lack of alcohol can also make a guy a serious pain in the butt...even if he has great balance, good night vision, stellar judgment, and other stuff.

How about some single malt in a sippy cup?


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## Sabreman (Sep 23, 2006)

*Seriously?*

We do not consume alcohol in any amount when away from the dock or anchor.

When I started racing the Maryland Governor's Cup in '08, I told the crew that this was a mandatory requirement. If they wanted to go to another boat, that was fine. The closest that I've come to relaxing the rule is to allow consumption after the finish of the 80 mile race. They'd worked hard and deserved refreshment. It's only about 0.5 NM from the finish to the anchorage, but it's amazing how much they drank in that half mile! They respect my decision and I've had the same core crew for 3 years.

Operating a vessel is like operating a car on roller coaster tracks. I am responsible for my passengers and a boat is unstable enough without alcohol involved. If we can get excited about keeping jack lines from rolling underfoot, we should be equally excited about protecting our crew's footing by keeping them sober.

I am not a tee totaler, not by a long shot. Please understand that I'm not preaching. I just take safety and particularly alcohol, very seriously.


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## Dfok (Apr 11, 2010)

*AH, the freedom of the seas, getting away from it all...blah blah blah*

Drunk driving, sailing, marriage, flying, surgery or operating massive or sharp power tools is stupid with ample evidence over the ages to prove that point.
When cosmic justice prevails the drunk swinging the hammer smashes his own thumb, dents only his own car or sinks his own boat. Sometimes, maybe often or perhaps even usually innocent thumbs, fenders, boats and people get hurt. Either way, there is a penalty to be paid. That is justice.
One of the problems our US justice system has is that incorrigible folks who just don't give a damn, won't care, who at their core remain irresponsible will drink, rob, do drugs, domestic abuse, domestic terrorism, pretty much anything they want. They don't respect or obey the law.
The system hates that. 
So the system we have cranks up enforcement, stacks up penalties and pursues the folks who will pull over, have the money to pay the fine and are generally good business for the law. ( A "point 08" lawyer stopped in a 1.5 million dollar boat is what we call irony.)
What is the point of chasing a dope who won't show up for court, owns nothing worth seizing and can't or won't afford a lawyer when you can sit in the shade all day writing up folks who'll pay the fine, the cops, the judges and the lawyers and keep the system greased?
To this there is the classic American retort - "so...you are in favor of drunk driving/sailing/marriage/surgery etc?"
I am not. 
But I am strongly in favor of a modicum of freedom that allows some charade of free choice. I like the freedom to make good or bad, maybe great or stunningly bad decisions. I value that more than I do a nanny state that wants to monitor me more than they do the banking, defense, pharmaceutical or mining industries.
So some guys got really drunk, fell of their client's boat, then drank seawater, then died. Bad decisions; but quite a different scenario from a couple out for dinner or on their boat getting stopped at a "Safety Checkpoint", blowing .08 in a .07 state and having their lives upended or ruined.
I don't know the statistics for death or injury from drunken sailing but I suspect they are pretty low and most likely self inflicted; almost a self regulating system. 
Zero tolerance (or effectively zero but construed as reasonable by unreasonable zealots) is totalitarianism; not to mention lazy, stupid, immoral, profitable and a handy way to keep folks in line.
Pretty much what I always thought sailing folks hate.
I believe most of us do the right thing simply because it is right and resent being told what to do when maybe we're a little bit wrong. 
Many time I've asked friends if they are okay to drive home, if I am okay to drive home? Not cause any of us are drunk, simply because we are all afraid.
I don't want to see that fear on the bay, the lake or the coast but it is already there.
As Kris Kristofferson wrote, "freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose"
....and so it goes....


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## rikhall (Feb 7, 2008)

smackdaddy said:


> How about some single malt in a sippy cup?


Lagavulin please.

Rik


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## Sabreman (Sep 23, 2006)

I forgot to mention that for me and the boat's namesake, our alcohol ban (while underway) has nothing to do with the law or politics. It has everything to do with my responsibility toward my crew. It is absolute.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Sabreman said:


> I forgot to mention that for me and the boat's namesake, our alcohol ban (while underway) has nothing to do with the law or politics.* It has everything to do with my responsibility toward my crew. *It is absolute.


+1. Exactly... responsibility.


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## flyingwelshman (Aug 5, 2007)

rikhall said:


> Lagavulin please.
> 
> Rik


Lagavulin from a sippy cup? Now that should be illegal!

I always have a well-stocked bar: wine, rum, vodka, single malt and lots of beer (Guinness) on board.

I enjoy sitting in the cockpit, or on the deck (mosquitoes permitting) and having a few drinks and maybe a Montecristo or Romeo y Julietta, but only once the anchor is set or the docklines secured. When underway I wouldn't even consider Johnny Walker Red (from a sippy cup or a crystal jigger).

As Sabreman said, it's not about being not allowed to do it - I just don't think it's the right thing to do.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Consider the source of the sippy cup... 


flyingwelshman said:


> Lagavulin from a sippy cup? Now that should be illegal!


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## ScottUK (Aug 16, 2009)

Just to let you know my motivation for the original post was to highlight a ramification to excessive drinking I had not thought about and that is dehydration when in peril. It would appear it led directly to the death of the two excessive drinkers. I would also like to point out it appeared the other crew members were either not drinking or were in moderation.

SD made a good point about it being a delivery and so amounts to drinking on the job. Reminds me of the last time I was in Denmark, the workers at a brewery were going on strike because of a new rule limiting them to 6 beers per shift!


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

Dfok said:


> Drunk driving, sailing, marriage, flying, surgery or operating massive or sharp power tools is stupid with ample evidence over the ages to prove that point.
> When cosmic justice prevails the drunk swinging the hammer smashes his own thumb, dents only his own car or sinks his own boat. Sometimes, maybe often or perhaps even usually innocent thumbs, fenders, boats and people get hurt. Either way, there is a penalty to be paid. That is justice.
> One of the problems our US justice system has is that incorrigible folks who just don't give a damn, won't care, who at their core remain irresponsible will drink, rob, do drugs, domestic abuse, domestic terrorism, pretty much anything they want. They don't respect or obey the law.
> The system hates that.
> ...


Dfok,

Good points.

I'd like to add that I would fight hard against a no-drinking law. Not having a glass of wine or a beer while "out there" is a smart personal choice. I don't want to live under a regime that controls down to zero % alcohol.

For the same reason, I don't rent cars from Alamo when travelling. The fine print in their rental contract says no alcohol can be consumed while renting. (At least a few years back it did, IIRC.) I don't rent from them even though I probably won't have a drink with dinner. Putting that in the fine print is unforgivable. It's obviously a way for their lawyers to win in court against you, and little to do with anything else. It's about control, pure and simple. And I want the freedom to have a beer with dinner if I so choose.

Regards,
Brad


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## CalypsoP35 (Jul 24, 2006)

Moderation in all things is best, including moderation. 

It's only a matter of time until sailboats become illegal to own. Too many people die and too much money is spent rescuing amateur sailors. Same for rock climbing, probably skiing too. Be careful what you wish for.

Bottom line is you cannot impose absolute standards or legislate common sense. When you do you start down a slippery slope.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

CalypsoP35 said:


> Moderation in all things is best, including moderation.
> 
> It's only a matter of time until sailboats become illegal to own. Too many people die and too much money is spent rescuing amateur sailors. Same for rock climbing, probably skiing too. Be careful what you wish for.
> 
> Bottom line is you cannot impose absolute standards or legislate common sense. When you do you start down a slippery slope.


Fully agreed. I say to many (just today in fact), you can pass all the laws you like making dishonesty illegal. You will never make everyone honest in the process. Doing the right thing is simply not black and white. This includes when one may or may not enjoy a cocktail aboard.


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## BarryL (Aug 21, 2003)

*how hard / dangerous is sailing?*

Hello,



Sabreman said:


> We do not consume alcohol in any amount when away from the dock or anchor.
> 
> When I started racing the Maryland Governor's Cup in '08, I told the crew that this was a mandatory requirement. If they wanted to go to another boat, that was fine.
> [deleted]


When I race I don't drink either. That rule makes sense to me.



> Operating a vessel is like operating a car on roller coaster tracks. I am responsible for my passengers and a boat is unstable enough without alcohol involved.
> [deleted]


This I disagree with. While sailing CAN be difficult / exciting / dangerous, etc. it is not ALWAYS so.

IMHO, there are many many times when having a drink or two while underway is reasonable and safe. This doesn't mean you can get drunk, but having a cold beer on a hot day while moving along at a few knots under a gentle breeze while out on open water isn't going to endanger anyone.



> I am not a tee totaler, not by a long shot. Please understand that I'm not preaching. I just take safety and particularly alcohol, very seriously.


I also take safety seriously. I just don't believe in absolute rules. I don't wear a PFD at all times. I don't rig jacklines on my boat. Sometimes I pee off the stern. I will have a drink while under way. It all depends on the conditions / crew / destination, traffic, etc.

I think that a mature adult can make those decisions.

Barry


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## Boasun (Feb 10, 2007)

Federal law for yachties is .1 and if you are in a state where it is .08 the USCG will turn you over to the local LEOs. 
For those of us who hold USCG Licenses it is .04... Which you can acquire just by walking by the beer display in your local stores.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Gaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

Okay. I skipped out of work early to come to the boat and get some chores done. On the way I dropped a c-note on a bottle of Lagavulin per the gushing in this thread. 

Good lord men. This stuff tastes like Vics over charcoal!!! And I know it's not my sippy cup!

Sorry. I'm a Glenfiddich 18 man through and through. I'm pouring this Laga swill into my Suzuki outboard. Although I must say it does pack a bit of a punch. I have the strange feeling I could pilot an oil tanker through Alaska right now.


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## rikhall (Feb 7, 2008)

I didn't say you would like it. I like it.  I like the peaty taste. I also like Laphroaig. Both are from Islay



> The whiskies of the distilleries along the southeastern coast of the island, Laphroaig, Lagavulin, and Ardbeg, have a smoky character derived from peat, considered a central characteristic of the Islay malts, and ascribed both to the water from which the whisky is made and to the peating levels of the barley.


Sorry you did not like it.

Back to your Coors lite (just kidding)

Rik


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Just slaggin ya a wee bit Rik. To each his own. I will say that the Laga makes great outboard fuel. I just hit 37 knots with my 4hp. Woops. Gotta go.


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## captflood (Jan 1, 2011)

*drnking and sailing*

if your out on the Oggin and somthing happens you need all the skills and ajillity to cope. It would take a long time for me to retake all my certificates and what would the insurance houses do in your are DUI. one slip one hurt no excuses no booze on board Lots of tea boveril oxo horliks oveltine oh and that other sfuff bildge-water oops I meant coffee. the water is beautiful but respect it at all time or it will bight you. Do not give them an excuse to start more legislation. Edducation not Ledgislation Go safe and have lots of fun


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## Ulladh (Jul 12, 2007)

Rik
Islay whiskies are some of my favorites, Bowman being one of the ones that tastes most like the dirt of the island.

For sailing, no alcohol until at dock or anchored, but maybe if on a long hot day sail I will have an awful lite beer like Amstel or Miller.

When I was 14 we though Harp was a lite beer for drinking with the teachers in the hotel bar across the street from the school. I know better now.


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## rikhall (Feb 7, 2008)

Ulladh said:


> For sailing, no alcohol until at dock or anchored, but maybe if on a long hot day sail I will have an awful lite beer like Amstel or Miller.


We are just the same. Once the hook is set, usually it is a gin and tonic and maybe a glass of wine with supper. But once I am through the Reversing Falls coming home off a month on the salt, a cold beer is often shared between us.

And, if you have not heard of Laphroaig, you are not reading enough Ian Rankin and have obviously not met CID Rebus!

Rik


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

Some interesting thoughts here.

What is the difference between sailing to deliver a boat and sailing to get somewhere (cruising)? Is it simply because someone is paying for a service? So the risk when someone is paying is higher than when it's for free? That's just plain weird.

Those who NEVER have a drink unless on the dock or anchor have probably not spent three weeks at sea. Not that I'm saying I can't go without a drink for three weeks, I actually don't want to. I made myself a promise thirty years ago - as long as I can afford it, not a single day will go by without at least one beer. That works for sailing as well. And it's worked for me for three decades.

And another thing is that I wonder why it's OK to have drinks when on anchor but not when sailing. What of the risk a change in the wind and a sudden lee shore. Because if a drink or two leaves you incompetent to sail your boat then it surely leaves you as incompetent to manage it in dodgy conditions. Or do you grade the anchorages into those that may kill you and those that won't?

And how many people check their crew for medication? I had crew who secretly but routinely took sleeping tablets when she went to bed. Something about "I can't sleep without them". Well then you'll stay awake until you can't but if we hit a whale and the boat is rapidly sinking, I'm not going to drag a comatose crew member with me. The sleeping tablets go into the sea, thanks very much.

To each his own but here's my dictum - if you won't allow me to have a beer on your boat then I'll find someone else to sail with because unwavering fanaticism of any sort is unpalatable to me and makes me what other quirks lurk in that mind.

Just MHO


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

*One major difference between sailing to deliver a boat and cruising on your own boat is that you are beinb paid to be responsible for SOMEONE ELSE'S PROPERTY on a delivery.* If someone wants to get drunk to the point where you can't safely handle a boat, they should do it on their own DAMN BOAT. I don't have a problem with people drinking responsibly, but drinking to the point where you become a danger to themselves or others is just stupid.

The people in the link in the OP were dehydrated from their consumption of alcohol. That is a lot more than just one beer or two. Also, the people who had to go out and rescue idiots like these are usually at a fair bit of risk through the actions of the drunks.

A lot of people do not understand that it doesn't take much alcohol to adversely affect your night vision, your balance or your judgement. Also, as Boasun pointed out, the restrictions, especially if you're a USCG licensed captain, are very, very specific.

I would agree that medications and such can also be a problem. I think that any captain needs to know what the medical conditions of the crew are as well as what medications they are carrying, if for no other reason than to be aware of any possible complications that can occur.



Omatako said:


> Some interesting thoughts here.
> 
> What is the difference between sailing to deliver a boat and sailing to get somewhere (cruising)? Is it simply because someone is paying for a service? So the risk when someone is paying is higher than when it's for free? That's just plain weird.
> 
> ...


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Omatako said:


> Some interesting thoughts here.
> 
> Those who NEVER have a drink unless on the dock or anchor have probably not spent three weeks at sea. Not that I'm saying I can't go without a drink for three weeks, I actually don't want to. I made myself a promise thirty years ago - as long as I can afford it, not a single day will go by without at least one beer. That works for sailing as well. And it's worked for me for three decades.
> 
> And another thing is that I wonder why it's OK to have drinks when on anchor but not when sailing. What of the risk a change in the wind and a sudden lee shore. Because if a drink or two leaves you incompetent to sail your boat then it surely leaves you as incompetent to manage it in dodgy conditions. Or do you grade the anchorages into those that may kill you and those that won't?


I agree, and I think some are forgetting about one of the likely scenarios one is exposed to frequently when out cruising... Whether you're in Key West, Nantucket, or a remote anchorage in the Bahamas, one of the riskiest things a cruiser might do on any given day will be the late night ride in a tender back to the boat after a night of imbibing either on shore, or aboard another boat... Are those who are saying they never have a nip until the anchor is down, also suggesting they would never have a drink during the course of an evening which will end with a dinghy ride back to the boat?

I'll never understand this need for hard and fast "rules" while sailing, every situation is unique and should be evaluated as such... IMO, one of the simplest pleasures and breaks from the monotony of an offshore passage can be relaxing with a drink as the sun goes down on what promises to be a beautiful night, I just can't see the harm in that, at least for me and the people I care to sail with...

I would agree, however, with the point some have made about having rules in place when sailing with people aboard who you might not know well enough to know the risk of impairment or the likelihood of having a problem with drinking... But, sailing with such crew is generally a poor idea to begin with, and certainly so on any offshore or overnight passage...


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## flyingwelshman (Aug 5, 2007)

Omatako said:


> To each his own but here's my dictum - if you won't allow me to have a beer on your boat then I'll find someone else to sail with because unwavering fanaticism of any sort is unpalatable to me and makes me what other quirks lurk in that mind.
> 
> Just MHO


I wouldn't call it _unwavering fanaticism_ any more than my policy that I always wear a PFD when underway - regardless of the conditions.

I enjoy a drink as much (occasionally more) than the next guy (unless the 'next guy is Mel Gibson' - _Ricky Gervais_). I spent a year working on a dry reservation in Northern Quebec. The community decided that this was the standard they wanted to hold. I was searched upon entering the community and would have been evicted (and lost my job) if I was found with any contraband. I was able to function very well; able to relax and everything, without any alcohol. Of course on my trips out a whisky or beer or two went down pretty good.

It's interesting how there have been comments about 'extremes' and 'personal choice' etc. Yet there is a cry of 'hypocrisy' when some suggest it's okay to have a drink while at anchor but not while underway. That is my choice. I assess the risks when at anchor and crack a brew or two if conditions warrant it.

If this is too draconian, tough! I can enjoy a sunset without a drink. If you are unwilling to respect my choice then, with all due respect, please feel free to sail on someone else's boat.


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## dhays (Jul 9, 2010)

Interesting how defensive some get when the subject of alcohol comes up...  

I agree with SD. Drinking at all on a delivery is unprofessional. The only professions I can see where drinking on the job may be appropriate would be prostitutes or politicians. I wouldn't want to be associated with either of those.

I do drink when I sail. Of course for me, that means maybe having a beer with lunch. At a chunky 200+ lbs, I can drink a beer on an empty stomach over 30 minutes and have a BAC of .012%. Two beers in an hour would still leave me well under that USCG License limit of .04% that was mentioned. I could even drink a beer an hour for 12 hours and still be under that limit (can't imagine anyone wanting to do it however). OTOH, if I weighed 180 lbs as I should I would have a BAC of almost .07%.

My point is that being responsible can mean different things. For a delivery crew, I would consider any drink or recreational drug irresponsible. For the recreational sailor, an occasional drink shouldn't affect their performance in any meaningful way. However, while I consider having a beer with lunch to be "drinking", there are unfortunately those that consider having three shots over a half hour to be just getting warmed up.

I think that for anyone, if they find themselves really concerned or worried about not being able to get a drink for a few days, they have some real issues.


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

First:



sailingdog said:


> Even small amounts of alcohol can impair your balance, judgement, reduce your night vision and have other affects.


Then



sailingdog said:


> I don't have a problem with people drinking responsibly, but drinking to the point where you become a danger to themselves or others is just stupid.


A little bit different, what?


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## CaptKermie (Nov 24, 2006)

I don't understand the concept of alcohol or any mood altering substance for that matter as an acompanyment to boating recreation. I tell guests that their Doctor cannot prescribe a drug (nor the black market) that will do for them what an afternoon on the water in a boat will do. I am not much of a drinker, it just doesn't appeal to me all that much. An afternoon of sailing does appeal to me and I am able to enjoy it more without the effects of mind altering substances and cannot understand why people cannot enjoy a simple single activity without having to add alcohol to it. Does not being out sailing in and of itself fulfill ones requirement for escape? Where does this overwhelming desire to add alcohol come from? I really do have to question what kinds of issues someone has to make a thirty year promise to have alcohol in their life. There is no alcohol on my boat, nor will there ever be, it is simply not a requirement and I have several freinds who are of the same thought.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

I think that some measure of flexibility makes sense. When on a long passage we will have a drink at cocktail hour if the conditions are benign (captain's call - mine). It is a nice time for the crew to get together for a social chat with no chores or watches to worry about. We will have a 2000 mile passage in a few weeks (Galapagos to Easter I) in trade wind conditions so will likely manage a drink on most days I would imagine.
An aside, beer in Ecuador is remarkably cheap for some reason. The local brew, Pilsener which is quite drinkable, is less than $1 for a 610 ml bottle that will provide two drinks. Turns out we should not have bought so much beer in Panama. Other products like diesel, propane, flour, rice, cooking oil are subsidized by the govt (eg diesel is US$1.03/gal0 but I cannot imagine that beer is on the list of daily necessities here - or perhaps it is.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Omatako said:


> First:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There is nothing inconsistent with those two statements.

*It is a fact that even small amounts of alcohol can impair your balance, judgement and interfere with your ability to see at night, among other things. It is also a fact that I don't have a problem with people drinking responsibly. *

I do have a problem with people drinking to the point that they become a danger to themselves or others, or operate a boat under the influence.

I do have a problem with people drinking while they are delivering a boat for pay, especially if they are stupid enough to drink to the point where dehydration from alcohol consumption is an issue.

So what is your point?


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## kpgraci (May 13, 2010)

Ah, Drinking and, well, drinking, at last a topic I know something about.  

Some people can drink and still function, other can't, a man should know his limitations. It should be obvious that in dangerous situations its a bad idea to be impaired, of if you have people on board (like kids) that you are responsible for and can't take care of themselves. For consenting responsible adults I don't like putting limitations on behaviour even if it something I would not personally do myself.

I don't know how accurate this is, but when I was stationed in Japan the Sgt giving us an orientation on Japanese law explained it this way. The Japanese courts assume your are an excellent driver, boater, whatever, therefore, if you are in an accident and since an excellent driver would not get himself into a situation they could not handle, you are considered at fault - no matter what. I guess that's guilty until proven innocent. Another way to say it is no harm, no foul. If you do something stupid wile you are drinking then you should not be drinking, if not, who should care?

I know most people can't be trusted to take responsibility, but the alternative is a nanny state. I say let whoever wants to drink, do drugs, whatever, go ahead, but if you then injure or kill someone, or damage property, the penalty should be substantial. As it is there are too many rules, and too few consequences.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Omatako said:


> First:
> 
> Then
> 
> A little bit different, what?


Yep.

I think this is well put...



dhays said:


> My point is that being responsible can mean different things. For a delivery crew, I would consider any drink or recreational drug irresponsible. For the recreational sailor, an occasional drink shouldn't affect their performance in any meaningful way. However, while I consider having a beer with lunch to be "drinking", there are unfortunately those that consider having three shots over a half hour to be just getting warmed up.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

CaptKermie said:


> ......I am not much of a drinker, it just doesn't appeal to me all that much......Where does this overwhelming desire to add alcohol come from?......


I fully respect your choice and you'll probably remain healthier for it. I would only point out that your lack of desire in the first place would influence your opinion on the matter.

Chocolate doesn't appeal to me very much (honestly), so I can't really understand why my wife wants it on the boat. Same thing.


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## Dfok (Apr 11, 2010)

*Easy to get knickers in a knot around here*

A major rule on my boat is I won't force anyone to have a drink.
Or not have a drink (if they are over 21, have at least some wits about them and there is not a tsunami heading our way).
As an relatively rational adult I have the ability to figure out that on a day with no wind I can have a beer at lunch (gasp! on the water! Without a PFD! A MAD MAN!!!!).
When storms are forecast I'll wait till I'm on the hook or the beach, or choose to wait until I've driven home.
Or maybe not, apparently I am a reckless soul - no telling what I might do!

I can imagine some circumstance where I may tell someone they have had enough for the circumstances without even knowing what those circumstances are. That's intelligence and judgment.
Intelligence and judgment are more difficult than simple do or don't rules, but they make life so much more rewarding.
I support anyone here who decides to wear a PFD, tether, EPIRB, whistle and strobe anytime they are near water or feel like dressing up. Anyone who chooses to not eat fatty food, raw eggs, day old fish or Twinkies has my total support too.
Just don't tell me I have to follow those rules or get some bright idea that "we oughta pass a law". 
Twinkies, sausage, beer, raw eggs for breakfast while wearing a thong doesn't have to appeal to everyone at all times, but maybe one day it will be just the "thing". Don't say "NO".
In the scheme of things recreational sailors are probably a pretty small group ( more than bowlers, way bigger than curlers, but not nearly as many as quilters for example). For better or worse we are a community ( mostly better since we eschew insanely loud and fast motorboats).
We have rules of the road, the coast guard, the local yacht club or racing committee, the custom of the sea, common sense and various states and countries to follow. Ain't that enough? 
Some folks only find 18 feet where they are Captain, King and ruler of all they survey - many of us are far more fortunate, we may have as many as 25 feet in our semi sovereign domain. 
So Freedom of the seas, mooring or slip man! 
Fly your Pirate Flag or "Don't Tread On Me" burgee and drink a toast or two to the ragged banner! (Or not - you are the skipper of your own world).

Oh gawd - did I start that whole "who flies what flag" thing again?
I hope so, this is a crowd that loves to get their knickers in a knot over the most entertaining things. 
Go at it boys and girls, just don't tip my table or spill my beer while you all cut each other up.......


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

df - that is was pure brilliance. Let me buy you drink.


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## Dfok (Apr 11, 2010)

*appreciated, and one back at ya*

just don't give me the Lagavulin stuff, it seizes my engines. Carib warm will do the trick.


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## ScottUK (Aug 16, 2009)

Another thought about the dehydration factor - drinking to the point where you get dehydrated can occur at the dock or anchorage and when you take off the next morning you could find yourself in the 'same boat' as the two guys on Trashman as most dangers are located near shore. Granted you are likely closer to a possible rescue being near shore. That said I myself have sailed on more than one occasion feeling a bit rough from previous nights festivities.


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## centaursailor (Nov 7, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> I fully respect your choice and you'll probably remain healthier for it. I would only point out that your lack of desire in the first place would influence your opinion on the matter.
> 
> Chocolate doesn't appeal to me very much (honestly), so I can't really understand why my wife wants it on the boat. Same thing.


They say chocolate triggers something in the female brain. 
Over here in the Rip off Republic we drink to enjoy life all the more,  perfect end to a good day on the water.:laugher Only problem is keeping the table steady.:laugher :laugher :laugher Over do it at your periluke 
Steady sailing


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## CalypsoP35 (Jul 24, 2006)

Dfok said:


> As an relatively rational adult I have the ability to figure out that on a day with no wind I can have a beer at lunch (gasp! on the water! Without a PFD! A MAD MAN!!!!).


Moderator, can we have this stricken from the site?  This is heresey and has no place in a community devoted to the rigors and sacrifices of sailing! :laugher

Next thing you know he won't set up his jack lines unless he is single handing, sailing at night or when conditions are anticipated to be ugly.


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## flyingwelshman (Aug 5, 2007)

Dfok said:


> I support anyone here who decides to wear a PFD, tether, EPIRB, whistle and strobe anytime they are near water or feel like dressing up. Anyone who chooses to not eat fatty food, raw eggs, day old fish or Twinkies has my total support too.
> Just don't tell me I have to follow those rules or get some bright idea that "we oughta pass a law".


If you support others' opinions, why do those of us who choose not to drink while underway have 'our knickers in a twist', or seem to be lacking in 'intelligence and judgment'?

It's my decision as to how to conduct myself and how I expect my guests to conduct themselves on my boat. It is also my decision as to which laws to obey, bend, stretch or break.

You have the absolute right to make those decisions on your boat - and I would not support taking away that right.

It's interesting how the tone here seems to be: those who choose to drink responsibly while underway = cool, hip, groovy, ginchy etc.; those who choose to drink responsibly (or not at all) when the boat is secured = up-tight, dull, prohibitionists who want to suck the fun out of everyone's life.

As for the disparagement of Lagavulin (otherwise known as 'The Nectar Of The Gods'), your opinion speaks to a total lack of understanding of what constitutes a 'drink'. Warm Carib? I can only imagine that it would have the flavour, colour and temperature of a real beer that has already been drunk. uke


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

flyingwelshman said:


> It's interesting how the tone here seems to be: those who choose to drink responsibly while underway = cool, hip, groovy, *ginchy* etc.; those who choose to drink responsibly (or not at all) when the boat is secured = up-tight, dull, prohibitionists who want to suck the fun out of everyone's life.


I'm just grateful for learning a new word that I can use to refer to myself. Ginchy, baby!

Seriously, welsh, go back and read dog's posts. That kind of set the tone you're seeing, I'd say (bold letters and all). The reaction here is to the notion that any sip of alcohol underway equals stupidity and irresponsibility. That's just silly.

As has been said, it's about moderation - not absolution.

Now as for the Lagavulin - I can't help you there. I have a bottle of it that I'm going to have to pawn off on my unsuspecting lady friends under the guise of a strange-tasting Pina Colada.


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## flyingwelshman (Aug 5, 2007)

I guess I'm from the 'Don't tell me what to do' school. I am not qualified to judge the choices of others (but, being human I tend to do it anyway.) so would not tell others what is appropriate on their boat. Please offer me the same courtesy.

With regards to:


smackdaddy said:


> Now as for the Lagavulin - I can't help you there. I have a bottle of it that I'm going to have to pawn off on my unsuspecting lady friends under the guise of a strange-tasting Pina Colada.


 - Stick an umbrella in it - she'll think it's the ginchiest and won't know the difference.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

flyingwelshman said:


> I guess I'm from the 'Don't tell me what to do' school.


I'm right there with you - you ginchy cat you.


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## Sabreman (Sep 23, 2006)

I've been following this thread for a few days and am a bit discouraged by some of the attitudes. We talk endlessly about safety in other threads and then hide behind lame political statements about freedom and what appears to be a consensus regarding our "right" to drink while on the water.

Personally, I don't care if someone drinks on the water or anywhere else as long as they don't risk anyone else's safety. But if that person gets underway and poses a threat to my safety, then it becomes my business. If that person requests help from the CG (inherently placing them at risk when they leave the dock or airfield), then it becomes my business because the CG is a public entity. If I drink, then I inherently place my guests and anyone else on the water at risk; this isn't a debatable statement - alcohol impairs judgement and motor skills. I certainly don't want an airline pilot to fly me even if he's "only had one beer".

The responders that say that it's all about responsibility are correct. As the operator of a 16000# piece of heavy machinery I am responsible to everyone around me on the water. There is absolutely no defensible argument that can be made to justify drinking by the operator of a vessel. I do not allow my guests to drink while underway because allowing them to do so places them at risk and it is my responsibility to protect them.

I am not casting judgment on anyone; I drink at the dock and at anchor. I just wish that some people would take careful, considered look at what constitutes responsibility _while underway_. This has nothing to do with politics.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Sabreman said:


> If I drink, then I inherently place my guests and anyone else on the water at risk; this isn't a debatable statement - alcohol impairs judgement and motor skills.


Of course that's a debatable statement, sab. As a matter of fact, what defines "impaired judgement" and "danger to others" is not only debated, but varies in law from country to country, state to state, organization to organization, etc.

If your blood alcohol level is below X, you're deemed legally "sober" and "safe" to operate a motor vehicle, etc. - even if you've been drinking. The cop will let even you drive away with booze on your breath.

You may not like that kind of moral squishiness, but it definitely exists (and is wonderfully debatable) - counter to your statement above.

The point that has been exhaustively made in this thread, and is backed up by the laws of the world, is that moderation is the driving factor in determining what is "safe and responsible" with regards to a bit of a nip.

PS - when you drink at the dock - how do you get home?


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## Sabreman (Sep 23, 2006)

> PS - when you drink at the dock - how do you get home?


Wife drives or if I'm by myself, I don't drink. Good try


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## dhays (Jul 9, 2010)

Sabreman said:


> I am not casting judgment on anyone; I drink at the dock and at anchor. I just wish that some people would take careful, considered look at what constitutes responsibility _while underway_.


I think your position makes a lot of sense and is very simple. It removes the issue deciding how much one should drink how often.

I do have a question. If you don't drink while underway, how long will you wait before getting underway after you have had a drink? The old rule for pilots was 8 hours between bottle and throttle. Is that what you do?


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## Sabreman (Sep 23, 2006)

Good question and I'm not exactly sure how to answer. I generally only drink in the evening and have dinner and bed down after that. So it's a non issue.

On the very rare occasion where I get underway after drinking (about once a year, after a particular race), I usually let an hour pass for each drink and then add bit of margin. I think that this is the same formula that they use in driver's ed.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Sabreman said:


> I've been following this thread for a few days and am a bit discouraged by some of the attitudes. We talk endlessly about safety in other threads and then hide behind lame political statements about freedom and what appears to be a consensus regarding our "right" to drink while on the water.
> 
> Personally, I don't care if someone drinks on the water or anywhere else as long as they don't risk anyone else's safety. But if that person gets underway and poses a threat to my safety, then it becomes my business. If that person requests help from the CG (inherently placing them at risk when they leave the dock or airfield), then it becomes my business because the CG is a public entity. If I drink, then I inherently place my guests and anyone else on the water at risk; this isn't a debatable statement - alcohol impairs judgement and motor skills. I certainly don't want an airline pilot to fly me even if he's "only had one beer".
> 
> ...


Seems to me that if you're going to be that strict about the notion of having a beer while underway, you've really got to extend such a prohibition to include being at anchor, as well&#8230;

It's not difficult at all to conjure up a scenario where the greatest risk in any 24 hour period that a crew can be exposed to might come in the middle of the night, at anchor&#8230; Happens several times a season in a place like Block Island, for example - mayhem breaks loose every time a line of strong thunderstorms passes over the hundreds of boats jammed into Great Salt Pond in the middle of the night&#8230; I would simply suggest that having a beer with lunch that day as all of them motored out to Block on a windless afternoon would likely be no more harmful than one consumed that evening, given what might be about to occur a few hours hence&#8230;

I just don't see what's so difficult about evaluating each individual situation on its merits - whether it be underway, at anchor, or at the dock&#8230; Last year about this time, for example, I remember a day I was reaching along in the lee of Long Island, Bahamas in a light to moderate westerly&#8230; Absolutely perfect conditions, very benign, flat sea&#8230; Don't recall if I cracked open a Heinken that afternoon or not, but I very well might have. I was bound for the shelter of Clarence Town, there was yet another strong front forecast to arrive that night&#8230;

So, after arriving in Clarence Harbor late that afternoon, in theory I would have then been "permitted" a to have a drink, no? Nah, instead I took a pass, and tried immediately to get some sleep, figuring I might need to be up for most of the night after the arrival of the frontal passage&#8230; Seems like simple common sense to me, how is the "rule" distinguishing between being underway or at anchor supposed to apply in such a situation? Is a "rule" invariably a superior substitute for "judgement"?

I don't know, probably just me, but I pity the crew who - after the completion of a successful passage to Bermuda, for example - won't be permitted to celebrate with a Dark and Stormy or two at the White Horse Pub, lest they be even the slightest bit "impaired" for the dinghy ride back out to the boat&#8230; (grin)

Oh, and if you do ever find yourself in a place like Great Salt Pond on some sultry Saturday evening in July, good luck with trying to convince all those aboard the other boats around you to cease drinking immediately, 'cause a big line of thunderstorms is likely to blow through after midnight&#8230; (grin)


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## Dfok (Apr 11, 2010)

I've yet to read anyone condoning drunken or impaired operation of a vessel in this thread; in fact this seems a uniform call for all to be responsible.
What is "responsible" is the rub.
Predictably some argue that "even one drink will make you impaired" - effectively prohibition, which changes the discussion from being about drinking to being about freedom. 
Not so much freedom to drink as freedom to think. 
That is not a lame political statement. In just the last few days the Egyptian people put their lives on the line for freedom. Here in the US we paradoxically claim to value freedom while dealing it away piece by piece in the name of homeland security, zero tolerance and "you can't be too safe".
I agree with Flying Welshman "_I guess I'm from the 'Don't tell me what to do' school."_
Whether we choose or not to have a beer, wine, Lagavulin, piss warm Carib, tepid Coke, cold water or nothing at all is beside the point. 
Whether that choice is made while the engine is running, the anchor is down or a storm is brewing doesn't matter a whit.
Having and maintaining the ability to choose is all that matters. Choice requires thinking.
_Cogito ergo sum_. Descartes was my kind of guy - a thinker, not a "let someone else think for me". 
Way ginchy, dude.


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## Sabreman (Sep 23, 2006)

What I really, really, like is how the SailNet crew can have an honest discussion with differing viewpoints without getting personal or flinging insults. That isn't the case on other sites.

This has been an honest discussion with good points all around. Congrats to all on a sensitive subject that is clearly one of personal choice.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Sabreman said:


> What I really, really, like is how the SailNet crew can have an honest discussion with differing viewpoints without getting personal or flinging insults. That isn't the case on other sites.


+1.


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## dhays (Jul 9, 2010)

Dfok said:


> I've yet to read anyone condoning drunken or impaired operation of a vessel in this thread; in fact this seems a uniform call for all to be responsible.
> What is "responsible" is the rub.


I'm with you so far, but here is where you lose me...



> Predictably some argue that "even one drink will make you impaired" - effectively prohibition, which changes the discussion from being about drinking to being about freedom.
> Not so much freedom to drink as freedom to think.


Making the choice to avoid drinking when operating a vessel isn't about freedom, it is about an individual making responsible, reasoned decisions. Choosing not to drink isn't inhibiting personal freedom any more than choosing to only have three drinks when operating a vessel. The 3 drink guy is making a choice, one that he thinks is responsible, to not have that 4th drink. The no-drink guy is making a choice, one that he thinks is responsible, to not have that first drink. Each are making a decision to not have that next/first drink.

It sounds as if you are making the Libertarian argument that no restrictions should be placed on the individual. That is fine. However, you are sounding pretty defensive when anyone describe their personal standards of responsible conduct that differ from your own. I have not read anyone here suggest regulation to change your drinking habits yet you persist in making political statements (lame or not, I don't know) regarding your view of regulation.

This ain't about freedom or politics. This is about how we each decide to make decisions regarding alcohol and sailing. Personally, I've found it both interesting and enlightening.


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## Dfok (Apr 11, 2010)

*A glass of virtual Lagavulin with you sir!......*

This has been interesting, but I'm afraid I tried to make my point badly or at least not as clearly as I hoped.

This thread started with two guys who got really drunk on the job, sank their delivery boat, ended up so dehydrated they drank seawater, then died. I think it fair to say those guys made a series of monumentally bad choices.


dhays said:


> I'm with you so far, but here is where you lose me...
> The 3 drink guy is making a choice, one that he thinks is responsible, to not have that 4th drink. The no-drink guy is making a choice, one that he things is responsible, to not have that first drink.


The three going on four guy is making some bad choices too in my opinion.
But this thread is a discussion among some pretty reasonable adults - responsible people who put a lot of sweat, effort, and money into a pastime we all love or at least really enjoy. By and large we're not folks who are going to have three going on four drinks, then raise the sail or fire up the engine.

The thread evolved into some stating that their choice is no alcohol, some joking where when why or what they may or may not drink, and at least a couple of us (okay, maybe just me) claiming that there are laws and rules that already apply, whatever choice we make.

I am far from a Libertarian and I don't see this as a "political" issue. Personal habits drinking or otherwise don't make me defensive.
Being told what is best, what to do, or even worse losing an ability to choose that I already have is what makes me defensive.



dhays said:


> I think your position makes a lot of sense and is very simple. It removes the issue deciding how much one should drink how often.
> I do have a question. If you don't drink while underway, how long will you wait before getting underway after you have had a drink? The old rule for pilots was 8 hours between bottle and throttle. Is that what you do?


No disrespect intended but decisions are mindful, call for judgment and intelligence. I prefer decisions to rules whenever possible.
I also see as big a difference between a glass of wine on a sunset cruise and "dead drunk" as I do between a sailboat and an airliner. Limiting a airplane pilot seems a reasonable rule even when 99.9% of the time they'd probably make the "right" decision but it seems overkill for a sailboat skipper screaming along at 5 knots.
There is a big grey area between wrong (the dead guys or the 3-4 drinks dude) and right (being responsible while sailing, driving etc) and plenty of room for a whole lot of us to be "right" with a variety of decisions.

On another note as several have pointed out - it is a pleasure to agree/disagree/discuss so agreeably. 
A land locked toast to you all!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Dfok—

Just curious, what is your opinion on someone drinking while they're doing a delivery and on the job so to speak?


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## Dfok (Apr 11, 2010)

Hello Sailingdog - I think it is one of their really bad decisions. On the job, not their boat, open water - sounds all around wrong to me.
Drinking while working is a firing offense in most places of employment I think, and insurance companies have got to frown on it should something happen.
Where I sail the law is the same as for driving - .08 is over the limit, big fines, loss of privileges, I suppose at some point possible loss of your boat and worst case scenario you could hurt or kill someone. 
A 200 pound guy would need at least a couple or three beers to reach .08 according to google. Personally that sounds like too much to drink then go sailing to me. 
Some here, in fact more than a few say "no alcohol".
The law and rules say an over 21 year old adult can legally operate after some alcohol. 
It occurred to me a minute ago that this discussion is really about "one drink". Some say any amount will impair a person to some degree. I sure don't want a surgeon or that airline pilot having a snort before starting work. But sailing on an average day isn't surgery. Now if you are delivering a boat, sailing into a storm or out at night that that changes things too. Then you have to make a decision, unless you made one blanket decision beforehand to just say no.
Drunk driving or drunk sailing is obviously wrong, that is why we have rules enforced against that.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I'm one of those people who says that because tests have shown that vision can be affected by very small amounts of alcohol.



Dfok said:


> Hello Sailingdog - I think it is one of their really bad decisions. On the job, not their boat, open water - sounds all around wrong to me.
> Drinking while working is a firing offense in most places of employment I think, and insurance companies have got to frown on it should something happen.
> Where I sail the law is the same as for driving - .08 is over the limit, big fines, loss of privileges, I suppose at some point possible loss of your boat and worst case scenario you could hurt or kill someone.
> A 200 pound guy would need at least a couple or three beers to reach .08 according to google. Personally that sounds like too much to drink then go sailing to me.
> ...


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

sailingdog said:


> Dfok-
> 
> Just curious, what is your opinion on someone drinking while they're doing a delivery and on the job so to speak?


Well, as a delivery captain, I will make a confession&#8230; Not only have I taken a drink or two during the course of a delivery, I believe there are certain occasions where it is entirely appropriate&#8230; (grin)

Any time I pass outside of Hatteras, for example, I will raise a glass to all the sailors who have perished there, and another shot of rum gets poured over the side&#8230;

Of course, when I'm doing a delivery, I consider myself to be "on the job" from the time I first set foot on the boat, until I step off on the way to the airport at the end&#8230; That boat and my crew is my responsibility whether we're underway, sitting at anchor, or sitting in a restaurant&#8230; Seems to me, you either have to not drink anything at all during that entire period, or take the very risky proposition of evaluating each and every situation individually, and make a judgment based on experience and intuition&#8230; Making the distinction between being underway, or at anchor or a dock, is essentially meaningless to me - as there are limitless potential scenarios where one might need their wits about them while "at rest" to an even greater degree than when having been underway earlier that day&#8230;


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## cspaniel (Jan 12, 2010)

Two things:
Drinking DOES impair your judgment, even in small quantities (and as SD said many other organs as well), if anyone wants scientific evidence of this please lmk. Conclusion: decisions while drinking are NOT the same or do not yield the same results as when no drinks have been consumed. The degree of impairenes does depend on the amount, off corse, and many other factor but impairment non the less, which takes me to my second point:
If you drink and sail ( in this case) you are a possible danger to me, not only to you. Freedom to drink: please be my guess, I am all for choice, even if you want to blow your liver and fall unconscious in a coma, don't care. But don't put me in danger.


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## rikhall (Feb 7, 2008)

cspaniel said:


> Two things:
> Drinking DOES impair your judgment, even in small quantities (and as SD said many other organs as well), ... impairment non the less, which takes me to my second point:
> If you drink and sail ( in this case) you are a possible danger to me,


Good point.

Also

Firearm injury in the United States has averaged 32,300 deaths annually between 1980 and 2006 (See Figure 1).2,3 It is the second leading cause of death from injury after motor vehicle crashes.4 An estimated two nonfatal injuries occur for every firearm death.5,6​
If you want the rest of the report - PM me.

So, I am not telling anyone not to drink, nor am I telling anyone not to have a firearm, but, from those points we would be statistically safer if we:


never drank and
never had firearms.

Just a thought . . .


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Rik—

While there are a fair number of deaths and injuries from firearms, the number of injuries and deaths are generally inversely proportional to the amount of training someone has had with firearms. Most of the kids who accidentally shoot other kids have generally never been taught how to handle a firearm and the danger in the case of firearms is often IGNORANCE.


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## rikhall (Feb 7, 2008)

sailingdog said:


> generally inversely proportional to the amount of training someone has . . . and the danger in the case of firearms is often IGNORANCE.


Good points Dog!

And we never see people without training sailing nor do we see ignorance at the helm on the water.

All I can say is Spring and launch had better hurry up! I'm getting cabin fever!

Shalom

Rik


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## CalypsoP35 (Jul 24, 2006)

cspaniel said:


> Two things:
> Drinking DOES impair your judgment, even in small quantities (and as SD said many other organs as well), if anyone wants scientific evidence of this please lmk. Conclusion: decisions while drinking are NOT the same or do not yield the same results as when no drinks have been consumed. The degree of impairenes does depend on the amount, off corse, and many other factor but impairment non the less, which takes me to my second point:
> If you drink and sail ( in this case) you are a possible danger to me, not only to you. Freedom to drink: please be my guess, *I am all for choice, even if you want to blow your liver and fall unconscious in a coma*, don't care. But don't put me in danger.


CS, You have missed the entire point of this thread no one is condoning excessive drinking. And to those who say even one drink affects your decision making process or diminishes your abilities, I would then say, children should not be allowed on sailboats, no texting, no cell phones, radio communication only when absolutely necessary. I would argue those activities are more dangerous than having one beer. Maybe we shouldn't be allowed to eat while on the boat that is distracting as well and it makes you sleepy. Hell, even having a conversation unrelated to your current sailing situation with someone in the boat diminishes your attention to sailing.

Ok, so you're argument is going to be when put into a situation requiring your undivided attention you're going to say you can put those things down. What are going to do throw the kid overboard? A child throwing a temper tantrum or even just constantly asking questions or crying because of a perceived danger is not going to go away.

And what about, differences in sailing acumen? A drunk experienced sailor, probably poses less of a threat than a stone cold sober newbie.

Again, no one is condoning excessive drinking here. The point is, we just want to be the captains of our boat and make our own decisions as to what is appropriate on our own boats under the circumstances at hand. You can make your own decision as well. As for your safety, I can't recall the last time drinking a beer during the day under good sailing conditions resulted in anyone being endangered. Racing sailboats, is a lot more dangerous than that. I would bet statistics prove that there are more accidents as a result of races than people having a beer or two on a nice day on the water.


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## rikhall (Feb 7, 2008)

_Boat drinks, Boys in the band ordered boat drinks
Visitors scored on the home rink
Everything seems to be wrong

Lately, newspaper mentioned cheap air fare
I gotta to fly to saint somewhere, I'm close to bodily harm

Twenty degrees and the hockey games on
Nobody cares, they are way too far gone
Screamin boat drinks, something to keep em all warm

This mornin, I shot six holes in my freezer
I think I got cabin fever, Somebody sound the alarm

Id like to go where the pace of lifes slow
Could you beam me somewhere mr. scott?
Any ol place here on earth or in space
You pick the century and I'll pick the spot . . ._

Boat drinks By: jimmy buffett 1979


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## cspaniel (Jan 12, 2010)

CalypsoP35 said:


> CS, You have missed the entire point of this thread no one is condoning excessive drinking. And to those who say even one drink affects your decision making process or diminishes your abilities, I would then say, children should not be allowed on sailboats, no texting, no cell phones, radio communication only when absolutely necessary. I would argue those activities are more dangerous than having one beer. Maybe we shouldn't be allowed to eat while on the boat that is distracting as well and it makes you sleepy. Hell, even having a conversation unrelated to your current sailing situation with someone in the boat diminishes your attention to sailing.
> 
> Ok, so you're argument is going to be when put into a situation requiring your undivided attention you're going to say you can put those things down. What are going to do throw the kid overboard? A child throwing a temper tantrum or even just constantly asking questions or crying because of a perceived danger is not going to go away.
> 
> ...


Calypso, my point was just to be clear about the consequences of drinking, and not hide the reality. Agree with your arguments and what ifs (children, eating, dogs, newbies etc etc), if you start a threat on those topics I migth add my 2 cents. In this case, is all about minimizing the risk to yourselve and others RELATED to alcohol comsumption. one more BTW, i am not proposing zero alcohol in a sailboat at all. I do believe though that true (not blind)knowldege and a good undertsanding of the risks of certain actions could help minimize the negative consequences, that is all...


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## aquaman9 (Jan 17, 2011)

Personally I think this thread has gotten off track but I will put my 2 cents in. Yes, I do drink and I even smoke. So before it starts let’s not get onto how dangerous smoking is on a boat or how dangerous overall to your health. People have the ability to make up their own minds if they drink or not. I do not drink on the job and that is my choice because I work for myself. If I did work for someone else and they said I can’t drink on the job than I would not for another reason. One thing that has not been pointed out here is that alcohol impairs decisions differently in different people. If I was to give my wife a couple of shots of tequila she would be worthless on a boat but on the other hand a few beers over the course of a day and I would rather have her driving than someone that never drinks and has only one.

I Know we have a few airline pilots out there that can back up the statistics that most accidents are caused by people with less than 1500 hours in the driver’s seat or more than 5000. That shows that someone with a lot of experience is just as dangerous to others as the new guy.

In my experience on the water the over confidant old guy is more likely to have a few beers than the new guy that is being very cautious. 

So how do I decide if alcohol can be consumed on my boat at any given time? I take all factors into consideration as to the weather, the boat, the crew on board, the time of day if we are close to our destination, are we anchored and many other factors. It’s called COMMON SENSE. 

Please excuse the spelling. Still can’t find spell check.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

rikhall said:


> _Boat drinks, Boys in the band ordered boat drinks
> Visitors scored on the home rink
> Everything seems to be wrong
> 
> ...


Good song Rick, one that I used to perform regularly when I was playing bars and nite-clubs. WOW! Those were the days.

Thanks for the memories,

Gary


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## CalypsoP35 (Jul 24, 2006)

cspaniel said:


> Calypso, my point was just to be clear about the consequences of drinking, and not hide the reality. Agree with your arguments and what ifs (children, eating, dogs, newbies etc etc), if you start a threat on those topics I migth add my 2 cents. In this case, is all about minimizing the risk to yourselve and others RELATED to alcohol comsumption. one more BTW,* i am not proposing zero alcohol in a sailboat at all. I do believe though that true (not blind)knowldege and a good undertsanding of the risks of certain actions could help minimize the negative consequences, that is all*...


CS, if you're not proposing zero alcohol while sailing then we are in agreement. We both agree that drinking excessively or drinking anything in less than ideal conditions is problematic. So I guess we agree to agree?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

rikhall said:


> So, I am not telling anyone not to drink, nor am I telling anyone not to have a firearm, but, from those points we would be statistically safer if we:
> 
> 
> never drank and
> ...


Not really. Many that I know would just kill themselves.

I want to be sure that all that would ban a single drink on any vessel at any time are certain to never ever become sleep deprived on a crossing. That is shown to be as debilitating as alcohol. Let's get a grip here. All need to be responsible, but there are no absolutes.


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## rikhall (Feb 7, 2008)

Minnewaska said:


> but there are no absolutes.


Well - sometimes










(just pulling your chain)

I told you I was sick of winter!

Rik


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## lapworth (Dec 19, 2008)

I wonder if motor boats think sail boats are drunk because they move so slow? I love drinking and sailing


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Here is the important lesson in all this:

Never sail with an "absolutist". They lack the ability to foresee the unforeseen. Hence, Murphy loves those guys.


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## flyingwelshman (Aug 5, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> Not really. Many that I know would just kill themselves.
> 
> I want to be sure that all that would ban a single drink on any vessel at any time are certain to never ever become sleep deprived on a crossing. That is shown to be as debilitating as alcohol. Let's get a grip here. All need to be responsible, but there are no absolutes.


One of the reasons that I don't drink while underway is that it is against the law to do so where I sail.

You are right: there are no absolutes - but there are laws.

As you said in the 'Cuba In My Sights' thread, "I will vote for someone that is willing to change the laws I don't agree with, but will abide by them until they do."

I think that abiding by the law, combined with the facts that I am a novice sailor and generally single-handing are enough reasons for me to have the policy that I do.

I hope to experience an extended passage in International waters at some point. By that time I might feel it appropriate to have a drink while underway. But only the good stuff....


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## dnf777 (Jun 23, 2007)

Very interesting thread, and enjoyable also as I sip a Pusser's rum and read on...

I like the comments about drinking and sailing being a personal choice, and should be done responsibly, etc... and generally agree. As my avatar depicts, I will occasionally sip a pina-colada (a rather weak one at that) while day-sailing on a lake, by myself or with another adult who is like-minded.

If I were delivering a boat, I would certainly be convinced that who ever hired me to do so, was drinking heavily at the time they made that decision, but I would not consume one drop while responsible for another's boat. Ditto when I have passengers with me, for whom I'm responsible. (unless they are sailors, adults, and like-minded)

Cheers all!


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## Flybyknight (Nov 5, 2005)

I don't drink, and I don't invite those who do.
My other vices make up for that in spades, I'm sorry to say.
Dick


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

It was the consumption of a very large Margaretta that allowed me to read this thread in its entirety. 

Bottom's up!

Gary


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

flyingwelshman said:


> One of the reasons that I don't drink while underway is that it is against the law to do so where I sail.
> 
> You are right: there are no absolutes - but there are laws.
> 
> As you said in the 'Cuba In My Sights' thread, "I will vote for someone that is willing to change the laws I don't agree with, but will abide by them until they do."..........


I will and I do. My objection here is to the absolute ban. Laws are different everywhere. In my neck of the woods, no open container underway. Having a beer at anchor and sailing home is legal as long as BAC does not exceed the legal limit.... .08


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## estopa (Aug 17, 2010)

RainDog said:


> If you listen to "The Moth" podcasts (if you don't, you should), one of the survivors told the story of this event. It was a pretty intense story. Her name was Deborah Scaling Kiley.
> 
> This might work: Deborah Scaling Kiley: Lost at Sea - The Moth Podcast - CastRoller


Made for TV movie - 
YouTube - Deborah Scaling Kiley


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Not to be mistaken, I do not condone sailing while intoxicated. 

However, I've still not heard anyone decry a professional sleep deprived delivery or double handed ocean race with the same passion. It is clearly the same incapacitation. Again, I'm not condoning the booze, but pointing out the slight hypocrisy.


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## dnf777 (Jun 23, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> Not to be mistaken, I do not condone sailing while intoxicated.
> 
> However, I've still not heard anyone decry a professional sleep deprived delivery or double handed ocean race with the same passion. It is clearly the same incapacitation. Again, I'm not condoning the booze, but pointing out the slight hypocrisy.


Or how about SWS? (sailing while stupid)

Aside from intoxication and sleep deprivation, just being plain stupid and not using good judgement will get you in trouble all by itself! 

But I agree with your point, and I also do NOT condone sailing while intoxicated. But I also do not condone absolute abstinence from life's pleasures either. If not for alcohol, how many of us could honestly say we'd still be here? How many of us even know the answer to that question?


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## calden (Aug 11, 2006)

So who lights up a joint now and then while on the water?


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

calden said:


> So who lights up a joint now and then while on the water?


Oh man - you just had to up the ante didn't you?

Let's just get it all out there....who aspires to be the Charlie Sheen of sailing?


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## calden (Aug 11, 2006)

smackdaddy said:


> Oh man - you just had to up the ante didn't you?
> 
> Let's just get it all out there....who aspires to be the Charlie Sheen of sailing?


Sorry, couldn't help myself. I read all the interesting and fairly well-thought out discussions about personal responsibility vs. letter of the law, and wondered...

So no takers?


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## flyingwelshman (Aug 5, 2007)

I have to admit to the occasional indulgence while on the hook.
So much for my 'law-abiding citizen' persona.


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## DubeJ (Sep 14, 2010)

I have a drink or two. Everything in moderation. Then I heave-too get blasted and start shooting at sea birds.....just kidding..
Seriously, everything in moderation. Everything.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

DubeJ said:


> I have a drink or two. Everything in moderation. Then I heave-too get blasted and start shooting at sea birds.....just kidding..
> Seriously, everything in moderation. Everything.


Even shooting sea birds, dolphins, and bald eagles. Everything.


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## rjcaudle (Jun 27, 2010)

On my boat it is a standing rule, No alcohol while underway.

Easy to say that one or two beers is ok. But then there is the guy that thinks 3-4 is ok, and so on.

So, I have eliminated the issue before it starts.

rjc


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Deleted as reported post....


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## CalypsoP35 (Jul 24, 2006)

rjcaudle said:


> On my boat it is a standing rule, No alcohol while underway.
> 
> Easy to say that one or two beers is ok. But then there is the guy that thinks 3-4 is ok, and so on.
> 
> ...


Good for you! I'm not so rigid. On my boat, we consider the weather conditions, distance and purpose of the voyage (e.g. racing, sunset sail, trip, etc.), competence and make up of the crew and then I make the decision for my guests/crew and myself. As part of the safety briefing for all first time guests/crew they are informed that they have to heed my decisions on the boat. (Then my wife tells me where to go when we get home.) If this is too difficult, or uncomfortable for you then you are making the correct decision for your boat.


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## CBinRI (May 17, 2004)

rikhall said:


> I didn't say you would like it. I like it. I like the peaty taste. I also like Laphroaig. Both are from Islay
> 
> Sorry you did not like it.
> 
> ...


I am also a fan of the peaty Islay Scotches.


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## Boasun (Feb 10, 2007)

When they outlaw "Hanky Panky" on the boats I will really scream!!


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

The beauty of all of this is that although we have differing opinions, most of us are masters of our own vessels, and we can set our own policy (within the boundaries of whatever legal zone we happen to be in at the moment).

I see a lot of extremist, zero-tolerance comments here that I don't agree with, but I'm certain that they have friends and family that enjoy sailing under those rules.

It's kind of like getting angry at a car owner becaus he doesn't allow smoking in his car. Why get mad at that guy? Own your own car, and set your own rule.


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## calden (Aug 11, 2006)

I will allow brief tastes when I am out with friends - a glass of wine at lunch or sips of the infamous Seagram's Dark Honey during a causal race. Then when we're back at dock and buttoned up we can party a bit more. I evaluate who the crew is and regulate accordingly.

I also expect other captains to take responsibility for their drug use including alcohol. This means that if an inebriated crew causes damage or harm then that would be part of my report. I would not accept "it's just a few beers."

And by the way, answering my own question, I wouldn't smoke pot on a sailboat. No need to! 

Carlos


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## Dfok (Apr 11, 2010)

*this thread is almost unique on the internet -*

Generally speaking we've had a vigorous discussion on a contentious topic and managed to keep it civil, let's not blow it now.
The buckaroo you call some names now may be the guy you'll depend on for advice, a rescue or maybe even a cold beer/soda/water back at the dock one day.

Bubblehead got it right -



BubbleheadMd said:


> The beauty of all of this is that although we have differing opinions, most of us are masters of our own vessels, and we can set our own policy (within the boundaries of whatever legal zone we happen to be in at the moment).


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## rmeador (Jan 16, 2010)

cspaniel said:


> Two things:
> Drinking DOES impair your judgment, even in small quantities (and as SD said many other organs as well) ... But don't put me in danger.


cspaniel, I don't mean to pick on you, but you provided a convenient quote (there are many like it in this thread). This is the problem with the zero tolerance crowd. To them, any amount of alcohol is dangerous. I do not recall a single post in this thread of someone who said "I don't allow drinking on my boat at all, but if other boat captains want to allow some level of drinking on their boat, that's OK". Instead, it's always "any amount of drinking on other boats puts me in danger", which of course trivially turns into "I want to prevent other people from drinking on their own boats".


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## cspaniel (Jan 12, 2010)

rmeador, no at all, read my following posts in response to calypso, they better explain my point (in agreement to his). No alcohol was not my point whatsoever. Knowldege, not hidding facts and understanding of the risk was my point. 
I find interesting that in many instances this discussion has turned into "you want to take my freedom away"....not all is black or white, there is grey too...Be safe


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## Flybyknight (Nov 5, 2005)

Deleted as addressed by Moderators 

Jeff_H
Moderator


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

History 101--The Mayflower would not have been able to make it across the Atlantic had it not been for BEER! Yep, it's true. Water quickly fouled in the casks, but beer lasted indefinitely. And, you could make more beer while underway. In fact, if you look up the history of beer you'll find that without beer, you and I would probably not be here as well. So, that case of beer on your boat can be viewed as life-saving gear. 










Lighten up guys and gals,

Gary


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## mainemandean (Dec 21, 2006)

On my boat, there is no drinking allowed underway. I make the occasional exception on a calm day, once we have dropped the sails and are approaching the mooring, with only time for one beer before we pick up the pendant. Once moored, anchored, or tied up, the bar is open. If the weather while anchored is problematic, I drink very little.

I have very little need to be agreed with on this point, nor do I find fault with others' policies. (Unless they run into me, or shout until 3 am in an otherwise quiet anchorage. Then I get ugly.)

By the way, I am not sure that anyone mentioned this in the thread, but the name of the book about Trashman is _Albatross_, by Deborah Kiley, and it is a very powerful book. Hard to put down, it's one of my "favorites," if one can say that about such a tragic tale. Very well written.

Finally, I am not in favor of comments which suggest someone might be a certain body part, even jokingly. But if you want to read about a *real* d___, see the paragraph above.

Dean


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## calden (Aug 11, 2006)

travlineasy said:


> History 101--The Mayflower would not have been able to make it across the Atlantic had it not been for BEER! Yep, it's true. Water quickly fouled in the casks, but beer lasted indefinitely. And, you could make more beer while underway. In fact, if you look up the history of beer you'll find that without beer, you and I would probably not be here as well. So, that case of beer on your boat can be viewed as life-saving gear.


I'll drink to that! That was my eleventh-great grandfather who provided the beer for that trip!

Carlos Alden


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## centaursailor (Nov 7, 2010)

calden said:


> I'll drink to that! That was my eleventh-great grandfather who provided the beer for that trip! Carlos Alden


Me too, hate sailing with tee totalers. 
No need to get slosheduke but theres less craic on a dry boat:laugher 
Safe sailing


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## dhays (Jul 9, 2010)

sailingdog said:


> While there are a fair number of deaths and injuries from firearms, the number of injuries and deaths are generally inversely proportional to the amount of training someone has had with firearms. Most of the kids who accidentally shoot other kids have generally never been taught how to handle a firearm and the danger in the case of firearms is often IGNORANCE.


No argument here, but the article that spawned this thread was about a couple IGNORANT folks that drank too much?


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