# Largest Semi-Trailerable Sailboat ???



## Kyhillbilly

I am very new to sailing and have a great deal to learn. Have posted a few threads on here seeking advice what type of boat I should buy. Based on what i felt was good advice from a poster , I ended up buying a Catalina 22 for learning on but still have my dream of something bigger. As I write this I realize I am way ahead of myself but its winter so no sailing and lots of time for dreaming. What I am wanting in my next boat is a boat as big as possible yet still able to tow it with my F-250 diesel. Have towed around 14000lbs to 15000lbs before and didn't lose too many years of my life in way of nerves. I seemed to have focused on A catalina 27 "Based on previous info from other threads" as being the largest towable sailboat but now find myself wanting to go up to a catalina 30 for obvious reasons MORE ROOM. The main things considered are:

1. Weight of Boat and Trailer being towed - cat 30 and trailer should not 
exceed 16000lbs at which I am ok
2. Overwidth Permits - Checked with Kentucky and Virgina as long as I stay
12' or below ease and costs of annual permits very low 
3. Stepping the Mast - A frame type system attached to the trailer itself with 
winches and a few xtra hands should be able to handle stepping the mast
4. Launching - not sure about this one - plan is to attach wheels on the 
front of the trailer and with cables attached to the winch in bed of truck to
bring trailer back once boat is in water. Have seen this done on video only 
with a rope tied to bumper on truck- worked on the video

I realize there are many definitions and opinions as to what is a trailerable sailboat. For me the question is how big can I get and still be able to tow it and launch it without needing to hire outside help. Thinking one could easily add 500.00 or more in cost every time I move the boat.

My main goal is to leave the boat on the lake most all the time except winter "tow it home for winter projects" and take it to the coast once or twice in the summer and again in the winter for extended periods of time. Would like to sale to Bahamas and the Caribbean as well. The Bahamas is a go for a boat of this size not sure about the Caribbean. More info needed.

I would rather spend a xtra hour or two setting up the boat and enjoy the week of sailing than be in the water an hour faster and be cramped all week.

Realize this is not the norm but have to be others who have done this before.
Curious as to what others with much more experience think.

Doable or Not 
Other Considerations I have missed?
One big question I have and hope to answer for myself this summer. Is there That Big Of a Difference between a cat 27 and a cat30/ to justify the added expense of permits and maybe xtra time in setup.

Husband, Wife, 16 yr old daughter, 13 yr old son, 3 yr old son. Need as much room as I can get. or so I think.


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## mstern

I think the biggest impediment to your plan will be the physical characteristics of the ramps you intend to use. Most of the ramps I have seen simply will not support launching a boat that big: I understand you intend to play the trailer down the ramp with cables (and avoid the truck in the water scenario), but the ramp would need to be very long indeed in order to get the boat in water deep enough to float. I would think you would wind up with the trailer's wheels in the mud. I know you want to avoid using a crane, but that may be your only way to ensure launchability. And you might need a crane anyway to step the mast. I supposed you could rig up an A-frame device, but that seems to me to be just as big a pain as hiring a crane. 

As for the difference in set up between a 27 and a 30: I think the 30 is worth the extra money. Its a great boat and really has significantly more room than the 27. I just don't see the 30 as "trailerable".


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## LandLocked66c

Simpler plan - buy a somewhat bigger boat to use locally. Charter for the Caribbean vacation. 

Stepping a mast that large can be dangerous and should be left to the folks with the proper resources. 

You may want to look at the Magregor 26 or some of the other water ballasted boats out there...


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## RedtheBear

The Bear' thoughts...
Macgregor made a 33' that was heavy duty vehicle trailerable though for going off shore Pacific Seacraft's Nor'Sea 28 would be my pick. Very capable, seaworthy craft. Several different layouts avalable. Heavy, 8000#, usually cutter rigged, inboard , narrow 8' beam, can be single handed. Usually pulled with f350 heavy duty pu. Something to think able is big boat needs lots of water under it. How deep is how much of your lake?


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## anthemj24

Ramp launching and stepping the mast should not be a problem. In fact, that is the only way to do it here and many other lakes as well. The 30 is definitely going to give you more space, however there is another consideration as well. The 27 is a better boat and a better sailing boat. There have been 27s that successfully circumnavigated, the 30? Not so much. If you are just looking for a big bay or lake boat, then the 30 should be fine. If you are thinking about heading into the gulf or out to the Bahamas, you may want to take another look at the 27.


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## estopa

I've thought of this before. If you get a swing keel or wing keel I bet this could happen with a stepped mast. I was looking into a O'Day 322 to do this exact idea you are thinking of. I was going to sail in the Long Island sound area of CT but if the itch was there I would love to drive it down south and explore.


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## Bilgewater

I used to trailer/launch sailboats up to 27' many years ago. tongue extensions worked best for me. I would build 12' long tongue extensions that I would hook up when launching. Basically a long straight bar (square bar) with a coupler on the truck end and a ball at the other end. With this system I could easily launch keel boats down standard length ramps...worked well.

Steve


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## blt2ski

Seems to me hake, or some such name has a 30 some odd foot boat that is 8.5' wide, so no permits for width or length. Bob Perry has a 40' boat call a container boat, it will fit in a 40' ocean container, so it would fit on the road also with out length or width permits. Just a proper trailer.

Other options include some boat trailers that allow the boat to sit on an angle. J105's get moved about this way, still fit with in the max 8.5' width on the road, so again, no need of permits! 

Just a few other options! Altho they may put you over your budget, depending upon what the budget is!

Marty


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## Squidd

I have a "transportable boat" not a trailer sailer by any means...big difference there and yes size is everything...The trailer, the pulling and the launching are the easy parts..get a big enough truck, trailer and lake and you can haul and launch the Queen Mary...

Stepping a 40' x 4"x7" mast and the proper rigging, tensioning and setup are not something you can do in an hour, in the parking lot , while in line for the ramp...[ or late on a Sunday afternoon before you drive home for work the next day)

It's a good half day job at least...the "smaller" purpose designed trailer sailers have shorter thinner lighter masts that are generally deck stepped and can be put up with a couple strong backs or proper rigging, gin poles A frames etc in a couple hours...but they were set up that way from the factory ...quick clips, hinged mast, minimal rigging (minimal space, minimal headroom, minimal performance but we're not here to talk about them)

A boat the size your talking can be "transported" but the proper set up, rigging and tuning has risen expotentially with the size of boat...You will need a crane, add acouple bucks and shorten your list of available landings...and/or you will need "major" setup on a self contained A frame lift,(your looking at 30' boom from trailer to mid point on mast) add a couple bucks, add a couple "more" hours to rigging time.( and tuning...this isn't quick clip snap and go stuff anymore...turnbuckles, tension adjustments, running rig, mast lights, wireing and electronics connections) Forget the "convienient" tree/bridge/overhang, and 4 big buddys they are not there when you need them...

I'm not trying to talk you out of a bigger boat purchase, just like no one was able to talk me out of one...Just be aware of the "scale" of the launch job your getting into...


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## skygazer

blt2ski said:


> Seems to me hake, or some such name has a 30 some odd foot boat that is 8.5' wide, so no permits for width or length.
> Marty


Hake Seaward Yachts,

Hake Yachts

The 32 ft is 10 ft beam, the 26 is 8ft 4in or so. I've never seen one, just read about them.

I really like being able to trailer my boat and have it in the backyard in the winter.

Realistically, in my life I sail sometimes, but I can go fool with my boat in the backyard anytime I feel like it, even just for a short bit of time.

I do have a large backyard, with the ability to get away from possible falling trees. I tarped over my 24 ft with a clear plastic tarp this winter so it's bright as day under it, makes it nice to work in there.

A cabin top hinged mast tabernacle is the first thing I look for in a boat, it's a necessity for easy stepping.


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## skygazer

Squidd said:


> I have a "transportable boat" not a trailer sailer by any means.


Squidd, Did you build that wooden cradle, and did you replace the cradle set up with the bunk board set up? Can you float on/off with those bunks? Looks good!


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## Squidd

Yes, I built the wooden cradle "site unseen" before I drove from Wisconsin out to Washington DC to pick up boat...(Wasn't a total guess, I did some measuring and calculations from spec sheet on boat) Fit pretty well right off the bat on the flatbed, lucked out on balance point, pulled easy..

I have since constructed the purpose built bunk trailer to float/launch the boat at landings...

Plan is to drive out and have crane step mast in spring...leave mast up all season, launch boat at landing as needed and store boat at marina when not at use...During the sumer when all the boats are on the water, "hard" space is cheap...

Don't have to pull/step it each time and don't have to exorbitant slip fees when I'm not there...

And still get to bring it home for winter storage/maintenance/lawn ornament...(actually, I keep it in the barn)


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## skygazer

Squidd said:


> Yes, I built the wooden cradle "site unseen" before I drove from Wisconsin out to Washington DC to pick up boat...(Wasn't a total guess, I did some measuring and calculations from spec sheet on boat) Fit pretty well right off the bat on the flatbed, lucked out on balance point, pulled easy..
> 
> I have since constructed the purpose built bunk trailer to float/launch the boat at landings...


Now that is impressive, I really like it when someone figures out how to do on their own, and makes it work.

I made a much different cradle for a boat I purchased last fall. More like blocking it up. I was too cheap to buy lumber, so after grabbing some landscape ties, I sawed up some junk pine I'd dropped just to clear space in the spring. Then I brought the empty trailer and a truckload of of wood, hydraulic jacks, pipe (rollers), tools, and most importantly, a chainsaw.

I had to work without power, so I chainsawed the the wood to fit the boat on site. The boat was on jackstands and I had to get it on the trailer myself, so I built a front support, backed under the boat, added rollers, and kept backing till I needed the rear supports. Balance point was a guess. A bit hairy at times, but all went well.


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## -OvO-

And then you drove it down the highway?


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## H and E

We were looking for a boat that we could move from lake t lake with a trailer that was big enough to spend a weekend on and perhaps take to the gulf. We ended up with a Catalina 25 wing keel with a inboard diesel. The PO used a third wheel on the trailer tongue and a rope. I built a channel iron tongue extension to replace the rope and am in the process of building an A frame for the bow and a crutch for the stern to facilitate stepping the mast. I pull it with a Chevy 2500 diesel. Hardly know it is back there.


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## bljones

Kyhillbilly said:


> Husband, Wife, 16 yr old daughter, 13 yr old son, 3 yr old son. Need as much room as I can get. or so I think.


THIS is your biggest parameter, in more ways than one. If you want the whole family to enjoy sailing, you have to have a boat that fits your family, not your truck or your perceived rigging needs.
Don't work backwards, or you will end up sailing alone. Whoever advised you to buy a Catalina 22 didn't do you any favours.

You can always rent or buy a bigger truck, you can't replace your family.
As far as ease of rigging, we have to raise our mast every spring and drop it every fall for storage. Our local yard does it with their mast crane, and charges $150 each time. In fact, because of liability worries and overhead power lines, they won't let anyone else step the mast. If you join a club, often annual mast stepping is included in the cost, or is cheaper. Build a collapsible a-frame and a gin pole, and you can probably step a deck stepped mast yourself, with some assistance, on anything up to about 32'.

What is your anticipated budget for the next boat?


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## Kyhillbilly

Thanks to all who responded to my post. Lots of good advice and info for me. For now I am only in the planning stages of my next boat. The cat 22 will do ok for now but wanting to go bigger asap. Just trying to figure out what that boat will be. I currently have a houseboat that is 50 long and 14 wide from tip to end. with bar,fridge,canopy, and deck chairs to lay out in. When you look at sailboats, dam not much room. However, the dream of sailing on the coast or off to the caribbean and all the people experiences you will have along the way. That is the trade off. Lake = same views same people same stories every weekend. Not that that is a bad life love the lake and love the people there, just want to experience more in life. I really feel the 30' is a semi trailerable boat based on my research so far, its not something you want to tow for weekend put in water and haul back out but that is not my plan. Not many people would want to put the work or time in it would take to get boat rigged for water. For me, I would rather spend few xtra hours setting boat up for xtra space on my week long cruises. Little confused as to which boat is a safer boat, one poster stated that the 27 was a much safer boat in bigger water. Will be looking for more info on that and opinions as well. Thanks again to all who answered my post.


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## CapnBilll

I just went down this same road. I ended up with an Aquarius 23', really too small for what I wanted, but a good first beginning.

Here is a project boat I was looking at. Clipper Marine, 32', 1977, Panama City Beach, Florida, sailboat for sale from Sailing Texas

It is setup for trialering, with roller bunks. A civil engineer boat ramp, (there are a few) have long deep ramps, the average weekend fishing boat launch generally has only 10-12' of cement before you are in the mud in about 3' of water. A full keel boat is NOT going to be launched there.

If you are only going to bring the boat in and out once a year, it may be worth it to go ahead and launch at a marina/shipyard. $200.00-$400.00 a year that includes pressure wash and mast stepping, plus the option of a bottom job for +-$1000.00 more, and your boat is set until next year.

I looked at the bigger trailerable boats, but found the word trailerable is a broad word. If it takes 8 hours for 4 men to put up the rigging, it is not something you can do on a weekend. Also if there are only two ramps in the state you can launch from, thats not really an option either.

Keep the options coming, I am interested also. There has to be aa affordable boat that someone else has done this with. Seaworthy enough to make an island crossing, (100 miles from island to island), in good weather, but easy up mast, (there has to be a locking mast step with a hinge).

I saw a Balboa 26 with a swing keel that had a locking mechanism. A wing keel is also launchable on a ramp 36' draft, but same stability as a fin keel, (slightly less righting moment). Some shoal keels are also ramp launchable. The trick is either redoing the mast step or finding one with a hinge.


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## ftldiver

The Hake's are probably what I would look at if you want to launch on a ramp. the Clipper Marine's (from what I see and read), are also big 'trailerable' boats.

but I think the length and grade of the drop off should be investigated *very carefully*! I know in Florida there is often a 'stop' or cement block to stop trailers from rolling off the end. (not to mention the depth of water you'll need to float it.) -how stable is your lake level... lots of midwestern sailors got landlocked last few years... (drought)

if there are travel lifts in your area, and you only launch once a season, then you can look at fins keels, and if it costs you a day to setup and pull out, its worth it.

I own a 1988 macgregor 26, water ballast. cabin is biggest in its size, but probably not big enough for your clan, IMHO. But I will say is a big little boat, and sails well. (not the power-sailor type). 
(I have Californian king size berth in stern.. but V berth is tight! -good for kids, not so much for larger teens.)

What macgregor does very well is the launch and retrieve systems. I pull into a ramp staging area, where cat22-25, precisions, etc... and I faster to splash the boat.

The newer macgregors (powersailors, X and latest M), have bigger cabins w/ standing head room, but they don't sail very well... but that may not be an issue. (if I were do to the great loop, the X or M would be on my list of candidates.)

The hunter 260 is also a WB boat, and pretty big cabin. and very nice... definitely worth a look, but I've heard they are a little too wide, and can get hit with tickets... if the police target them.

*I heard a rumor hunter is going to stop building their WB versions... not sure the reason... ??? anyone ???


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## WDS123

Ramp launching a 16,000 lb fixed keelboat ?

It is possible in _theory_, but you sure are going to want to work out every detail.

There are a handful of larger boats with moveable keels.

Columbia just launched their 32ftr w/ 10' beam- it is a bit of a rocketship, designed for Transpac - weighs only 3,800 lbs, retractable keel, easily ramp launched


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## PBzeer

The Hunter 26/260 are very easily rigged and launched 'trailer sailers'. I put the mast of my H26 up and down by myself every season. They are water ballasted with a swing keel and a flip up rudder. Roomy for it's size, with an enclosed head (portapottie) and a two burner origo stove. Has an aft double, large vee berth, and the U shaped settee can be made into a double berth.

I saw one of the Seaward Eagle's at Lake Worth a few years ago, and it was a sharp looking boat.


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## anthemj24




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## Barquito

I think this discussion boils down to two things:

1) Small boats can be trailered and trailer launched. Big boats can't, or shouldn't.

2) Big boats are much more expensive. There is just no way around that. You can keep costs under control, but, it will always be much more expensive to operate a 30' boat than a 22' trailer sailor.


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## rdw

Are you a member of Cave Run Sailing Association? It is a very good organization with good members and opportunities. Website CRSA Home Page.


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## Squidd

Barquito said:


> I think this discussion boils down to two things:
> 
> 1) Small boats can be trailered and trailer launched. Big boats can't, or shouldn't.
> 
> 2) Big boats are much more expensive. There is just no way around that. You can keep costs under control, but, it will always be much more expensive to operate a 30' boat than a 22' trailer sailor.


1. Big boats can be trailered and launched (within reason)... you just have to have the "right" boat, can't drag any old thing out of the harbor...

2. Yeah, more expensive, but it sure is nice to stand up when you pee...


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## Anaconda

I have a Noelex 30 which fits all the parameters you are looking for. Boat is for sale in Australia.To see what these boats are like search for Noelex 30 in Boatpoint website. These are a Bruce Farr designed 30 foot keelboat with a hydraulically retractable bulb keel. The boat is trailed on a tri axle trailer behind a Toyota Landcruiser at 3500kg for boat and trailer. The mast can be raised with an A frame and trailer winch singlehanded, it is easier to do singlehanded unless your assistant knows exactly what procedure is. With the keel and rudder locked down the boat will pass category 1 stability requirements. several years ago a Noelex 30 was a regular starter and finisher in the Sydney to Hobart yacht race.
I have just returned from several weeks cruising in Bass Strait and the Tasmanian coast with my three sons. Some of the passages were in 35 knot plus winds which the boat can comfortably handle. I have the boat set up as a "race" boat with all gear and systems functional and strong. However, it is a light displacement boat and feels much more comfortable in a safe anchorage with all the cruising boats when it is 50 knots outside.
I believe that the 30 foot trailable/retractable keel boat is the ideal boat for a family with kids where the boat is essentially a floating caravan. Pack a windsurfer on board so that you can sail to your hearts content when it is windy and leave the boat comfortably at anchor untill your kids get to the age that they make you take the boat offshore in 30 plus knots (or take you along for the ride).


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## Sublime

skygazer said:


> Hake Seaward Yachts,
> 
> Hake Yachts
> 
> The 32 ft is 10 ft beam, the 26 is 8ft 4in or so. I've never seen one, just read about them.


I love those boats! I'd buy one in a heart beat if I had the money. I already have a truck big enough to haul the 32.  That is probably the biggest truly trailerable boat.

Some have mentioned the Hunter 260. I have one. You, a wife, a 13 y/o and a 3 y/o will probably be cramped on it after a week. It would be fine for a weekend, but a week? Probably not a good idea. Does everyone get along really really reeeeeeeaally well? Nobody snores? :laugher
The aft bunk can fit two adults. A kid could sleep on one of the side cushions. A normal sized adult could take the v-berth. The 13 y/o and 3 y/o sleeping in the v-berth would cause fights.

Also, it's not a boat you can take to the bahamas willy nilly. You need a good weather window. Sometimes that doesn't happen and it's not a boat to take through a storm out on the ocean.

No side decks so if you go forward, you're climbing up on top of the boat without handrails. It can be quite an adventure!


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## skygazer

-OvO- said:


> And then you drove it down the highway?


OvO, if your question was directed at this photo, then yes, I drove it down the highway!



skygazer said:


> I had to work without power, so I chainsawed the the wood to fit the boat on site. The boat was on jackstands and I had to get it on the trailer myself, so I built a front support, backed under the boat, added rollers, and kept backing till I needed the rear supports. Balance point was a guess. A bit hairy at times, but all went well.


It handled very nicely, up and down New England hills and around sharp bends. The trailer brakes work. Nothing shifted. Of course, I levered up the supports and removed the rollers before setting out. I have a nice truck capable of towing a much larger load.

The photo is at my home, after I delivered it. It's now further back away from trees and tarped in with a clear tarp that makes it bright as day inside. I set the mast (supporting the tarp) up high enough to stand up in the cockpit.


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## buccaneer10

*Congratulations!*

first on being a new sailor, and secondly for actually figuring out how to start a thread!!!!!!!! i am also new sailor(recovering powerboater) and have been trying to get help on my restoration but cant figure out how to thread,blog,chat,etc.!


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## SloopJonB

CapnBilll said:


> Here is a project boat I was looking at. Clipper Marine, 32', 1977, Panama City Beach, Florida, sailboat for sale from Sailing Texas


That's the one I was thinking of - they also made an aft cabin version that would be better with 3 kids on board - at least a semblance of some privacy for Mom & Dad.

Despite being designed by Crealock, they aren't much of a boat AFAIK but they'd get the job done in the OP's unique set of circumstances.


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## SloopJonB

ftldiver said:


> but I think the length and grade of the drop off should be investigated *very carefully*! I know in Florida there is often a 'stop' or cement block to stop trailers from rolling off the end. (not to mention the depth of water you'll need to float it.)


Hell, just launch it like my sister in law launches their 25' cabin cruiser - disconnect all tiedowns to the trailer, line everything up with someone on the boat, back down the ramp at 10 or 15 MPH until the tongue is in the water, hit the brakes - HARD.  The boat just keeps on going and "launches" itself. I think rollers and not bunks are essential to the success of this maneuver.

It sure isn't the way I'd have done it but you cain't hardly argue with success.


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## Kyhillbilly

The clipper marine 32 looks like it may be a good option, will have to research the boat more. The clipper for sell would be idea for what I am looking for if I where ready to buy a boat today. RDW, not a member of cave run sailing club yet but plan on joining this spring. The cat 22 I bought at caverun lake, went sailing at a few of the club races to see what the sailing was like at caverun, plenty good enough to get some experience and the people in the club really nice and willing to help out.


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## skygazer

Kyhillbilly said:


> The clipper marine 32 looks like it may be a good option, will have to research the boat more.


Here is a link to a long forum discussion that I found after seeing an ad for one near me at a super low price. I ended up not going to look at it so I have zero experience.

Clipper Marine ? - Cruisers & Sailing Forums


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## Kyhillbilly

I'm thinking sailboats and politics are a lot alike. You sure can get into a fight in a hurry when talking about them to other people when stating your opinion. As of now I am pretty set on the cat 27 or cat 30. Just seem to be the best bang for the buck in what I am looking for. As said before, I hope to board a few this summer maybe even sail on a few to help make up my mind. Leaning pretty hard toward the 27 with 8.5 bean just because of permit issue. The 27 is cheaper than 30 but giving up some space will have to physically look at them this summer to get a real idea of what I am willing to give and take on my next boat. Based on all the info I really feel either boat can be towed and launched with some planning and a little xtra hard work. Don't know the answers for sure yet but I will enjoy the ride getting there. Thanks to everybody who has offered advice on this subject and other questions I have asked. I have learned a few things and have so much more to go. I am enjoying the journey and can't wait till I get to the destination.


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## my900ss

I have a Catalina 27' Dinette model. It is a great boat for a smaller family i.e. <4 adults. It has more room for people inside than topside when sailing. It is not a blue water boat. Miami to Bimini in fair weather sure, VA to Bermuda not so much. I towed this boat from CA to NC so it can be done easily, I would recommend using a crane/lift to get it into and out of the water if using a P/U truck. If you have any specific questions feel free to ask.


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## skygazer

I have found this to be an interesting and informative thread. 

I like the freedom of trailering, and of course, everyone likes bigger boats! ...........Then we like to play on smaller boats. 

It's all good!


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## skygazer

my900ss said:


> I have a Catalina 27' Dinette model. It is a great boat for a smaller family i.e. <4 adults. It has more room for people inside than topside when sailing. It is not a blue water boat. Miami to Bimini in fair weather sure, VA to Bermuda not so much. I towed this boat from CA to NC so it can be done easily, I would recommend using a crane/lift to get it into and out of the water if using a P/U truck. If you have any specific questions feel free to ask.


The Catalina 27 is one I've been considering, there is one for sale at a nearby marina that I like the sounds of.

Nice photos, nice trailer.

What is the beam of the boat? What do you do about being a bit oversize for the road?


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## my900ss

The beam is 8'10" and the trailer fits in the lane, thus I had no issue towing it across the country.


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## ericra

I assume the trailer has it's own breaks, what is the total weight you are towing?


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## my900ss

The trailer currently has surge brakes, although I will look into upgrading these to electric as I like to use a weight dist hitch with anti sway bars. Weight of the trailer is ~1500lbs and the boat is ~7000lbs. I have a rough calculation that the tow weight is ~9000lbs.


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## ericra

That's a lot of weight on surge brakes, I would feel a lot safer with elec. brakes. Thanks for the answer, I believe that 9000 lbs would be illegal in Europe.


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## CapnBilll

SloopJonB said:


> Hell, just launch it like my sister in law launches their 25' cabin cruiser - disconnect all tiedowns to the trailer, line everything up with someone on the boat, back down the ramp at 10 or 15 MPH until the tongue is in the water, hit the brakes - HARD.  The boat just keeps on going and "launches" itself. I think rollers and not bunks are essential to the success of this maneuver.
> 
> It sure isn't the way I'd have done it but you cain't hardly argue with success.


I saw a picture of a boat that they hit the brakes a little early.


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## SloopJonB

Kyhillbilly said:


> The clipper marine 32 looks like it may be a good option, will have to research the boat more. The clipper for sell would be idea for what I am looking for if I where ready to buy a boat today. RDW, not a member of cave run sailing club yet but plan on joining this spring. The cat 22 I bought at caverun lake, went sailing at a few of the club races to see what the sailing was like at caverun, plenty good enough to get some experience and the people in the club really nice and willing to help out.


A few points about the Clipper - it was designed to be a maximum trailerable - 8' beam so no permits. It was designed by Bill Crealock - a VERY respected designer. It's very lightly built but that adds to its trailerability. It is no beauty and no rocket - its NorCal PHRF is 270 compared to the Catalina 30 at 180 - that's a minute and a 1/2 a mile slower on average. That's for the Clipper 30 - I believe the 32 is the same hull with a different lid. For comparison, most modernish 20 footers rate somewhere in the high 200's but boats like the offshore ready Rawson 30 are up around 300 as well. It WILL get you and your family sailing in some comfort for little money.

They are very cheap for a lot of room, they are perfectly adequate for lake & protected waters - this is demonstrated by the number still sailing. Keep in mind when reading postings on this or any sailing site - most of the posters use full offshore capability as their baseline when judging and commenting on boats "quality" and work back from there into the type of boat and sailing most of us have & do. Somewhat like using Benz or Porsche as the baseline for judging cars. By that sort of view, the Clippers ain't much. My experience is they are built to a similar quality to most economy, high volume "family style" power boats - Reinells and so forth. Not going to impress anybody but you'll get a lot of time on the water for very little money. You could buy a useable Clipper on a trailer, free & clear for about what my annual moorage costs. That leaves a lot of money for making a few improvements - new upholstery maybe? You get the idea.

They are nearly unique in that they were designed and built for EXACTLY the circumstances you describe as yours and I think one would suit very well until you can afford better.

P.S. The Bahamas - maybe, if you are very careful about the weather. The Caribbean, no unless you truck it to the Virgins (I presume there are some sort of ferries, short of freighters to the AVI?) and stay there


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## Kyhillbilly

Would like to know how you raise the mast, had a guy who trailered a 27 cat and raised/lowered mast with boom with hinge at bottom of mast. Thread on Catalina owners forum, very helpful info on that post for anybody looking for more info. Really like to have an 8' 10" beam as well, over width I know but don't think one will have much issue with DOT if pulled over, just a guess. Only 5" my900ss did you have to get permits or was it just not a issue?


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## redfishnc

I moved my Catalina 30 3 times, rig up rig down, rig up rig down. You get the pic. Had the hots for a trailer so I could move it myself. I know there are those who can do this faster but it was close 5-6 hours to get it rigged with crane and one Howard (a guy who knew what and how to do it). My thinking is there was nothing easy about moving a Catalina 30, a boat I really liked. Using suitable landings along the NC coast are rare, none close to my house in Wilmington. You use a lift and crane. By the way 5 people on a 30 footer for a week is going to be crowded before Sunday. Why not just put the 30 on the closest big lake and go sailing. Once the sails are up you won't care so much. Moving that 30 is gonna be work. Elec brakes and weight distributing hitch is not an option, it's the only way.


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## Kyhillbilly

Question that comes to mind, is that during my research to help me make the best choice possible, I have came across several people who travel semi regularly with a 27cat so I know it can be done. The mast weight and height difference between the two, is it that big of a difference so you draw the line at the 27 cat. How about the time to rig the boat. Redfish said 5-6 hours for a 30 footer what about a 27 footer shouldn't it be close to that same? Raising/lowering the mast really not a concern thinking I should have that part figured out with a A frame attached to trailer with cables for easy use. Got it figured out in my head anyways. But the 27 mast by some accounts did not use a a frame only the boom to lower it towards the front of the boat. Could be much faster and simpler. What I have is a lot of time to think and dream about my next boat, what I need is much more time and experience on and around sailboats to help connect the dots from paper to actual or visual information. All the info provided here is of great use because so many things to consider even if I had all kinds hands on I would still overlook some things. The length of docks and mud something had not considered, had way of getting boat deep enough in water to launch but didn't think about the rest.


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## Kyhillbilly

My plans are to sail on the coast of Virgina and North Carolina. Anybody have any ideas of ramps where a person could launch a larger boat of this size.


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## my900ss

Kyhillbilly said:


> Would like to know how you raise the mast, had a guy who trailered a 27 cat and raised/lowered mast with boom with hinge at bottom of mast. Thread on Catalina owners forum, very helpful info on that post for anybody looking for more info. Really like to have an 8' 10" beam as well, over width I know but don't think one will have much issue with DOT if pulled over, just a guess. Only 5" my900ss did you have to get permits or was it just not a issue?


Kyhillbilly... 8'6" is the limit in most states, thus 8'10" will not get you noticed. I did not have an issue as the widest part of the boat or trailer is darn near 10' off the ground. Good luck to a DOT or Highway Officer to measure that.

Given that this was the first time I had put the boat on a trailer, I just paid the boat yard the fee for the crane and had them lower it. I did the prep work and they lowered it. Maybe 20 min of crane time, very easy. I have seen plenty of videos on youtube where other people are raising and lowering a Catalina 25 or Catalina 27 mast. Does not look to be that complicated yet I have not attempted it myself... yet.

There was in the Marina where I had the boat docked in Richmond, CA a Catalina 25 to my port side and a Catalina 30 directly opposite my berth. The difference in size between the Catalina 25 and my 27 was not terribly large. The difference between the Catalina 30 and my Catalina 27 was significant. I would not want to try to tow that boat with a 1/2 ton truck.


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## Squidd

Squidd said:


> I have a "transportable boat" not a trailer sailer by any means...big difference there and yes size is everything...The trailer, the pulling and the launching are the easy parts..get a big enough truck, trailer and lake and you can haul and launch the Queen Mary...
> 
> *Stepping a 40' x 4"x7" mast and the proper rigging, tensioning and setup are not something you can do in an hour, in the parking lot , while in line for the ramp...[ *or late on a Sunday afternoon before you drive home for work the next day)
> 
> *It's a good half day job at least...*the "smaller" purpose designed trailer sailers have shorter thinner lighter masts that are generally deck stepped and can be put up with a couple strong backs or proper rigging, gin poles A frames etc in a couple hours...but they were set up that way from the factory ...quick clips, hinged mast, minimal rigging (minimal space, minimal headroom, minimal performance but we're not here to talk about them)
> 
> _A boat the size your talking can be "transported" but the proper set up, rigging and tuning has risen expotentially with the size of boat...You will need a crane, add acouple bucks and shorten your list of available landings...*and/or you will need "major" setup on a self contained A frame lift,(your looking at 30' boom from trailer to mid point on mast) add a couple bucks, add a couple "more" hours to rigging time.( *and tuning...this isn't quick clip snap and go stuff anymore...turnbuckles, tension adjustments, running rig, mast lights, wireing and electronics connections) Forget the "convienient" tree/bridge/overhang, and 4 big buddys they are not there when you need them..._
> I'm not trying to talk you out of a bigger boat purchase, just like no one was able to talk me out of one...Just be aware of the "scale" of the launch job your getting into...


You need to get your butt "on" a boat... look at the mast...wrap your hands around it and get a feel for how heavy it's gonna be with shrouds and spreaders and halyards swinging in the wind...

Stand at the base and look up.. See just how tall 30 some foot really is...then add another ten cause your up on a trailer...So how big is that A frame gonna be..? 9' wide at the base...no 9' wide 10' up to clear the boat and then tapers in...and dont forget to clear the spreaders...

I'm not trying to talk you out of a bigger boat purchase, just like no one was able to talk me out of one...Just be aware of the "scale" of the launch job your getting into...

You say you got it all figured out in your head...look at my earilest posts where "I" had it all figured out in my head and gonna cut the mast and add a hinge, build an A frame, etc...etc...

Then I got the boat and reality set in...


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## Sailormon6

Using an A frame to erect a mast on a Catalina 22 or 25 or even 27 is a whole different proposition from using an A frame to raise a mast on a C30. The A frame used for a C25, for example, is relatively light weight, and can be put in place fairly easily. An A frame that is strong enough to raise a C30 mast would be much heavier. Ditto for the "mast-up" that you'll also need. Also, to raise the mast you'll first need to carry the mast aft far enough so you can attach the base of the mast to the mast tabernacle. It's very difficult for one person to do with the much lighter C25 mast. It will be much more difficult to do with a C27, and virtually impossible to do with a C30. After the mast base is attached to the tabernacle, you'll have to lift the mast up perhaps 6 feet high, to lay it in the "mast-up." In short, it isn't just a wee bit more difficult to raise the mast on a C30. The difficulty of every step in the process increases exponentially. Moreover, just wait until you experience the thrill of sliding through a red light on wet streets with your brakes locked up, and your boat and trailer hitched to the back of your truck. I've done it, and it leaves you with a chill that lasts a long time. I can only imagine the intensity of the thrill if my boat had been a C30.  

I cast my vote with those who suggest you get a bigger boat and leave it in the lake all summer, but charter, rather than trailer, when you want to go somewhere. My boat was a C25, and trailering it wasn't impossible, but, considering everything, it was difficult enough to discourage me from trailering it.


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## skygazer

These are all good points......

So I want the biggest boat I can enjoy trailering and setting up.


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## sailortjk1

Get the boat you want, 
Have a trailer made by somebody like Triad Trailer, Sailboat Custom Built Trailer - Triad Trailers, Inc.
Tow the boat with your truck, 
Launch with a crane at a marina, Step the mast with the same crane.
You can tow it and stow it anywhere you want to, but to think that you are going to launch and step a fixed keel boat with 5' draft and 30+ foot mast all by yourself is very wishfull thinking.


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## Kyhillbilly

Agree with squidd that I need much more hands on experience before making my decision which is what I have intended to do all along. The main purpose for me posting now is, I have got the sailing bug pretty bad. Think about sailboats all day, reading all the sailing magazines, dreaming like most I would think about sailing off to some island leaving the your land troubles behind. That is long term go to sail the caribbean in next ten years. For the now I want to gain as much knowledge as possible to help me make that decision a year or two from now. Skygazer, you ask how big can you go and enjoy the process with trailering and the setup. I really think that answer is going to be different for everybody. The tow weight of the boat/trailer, that will be what your truck can handle and what you can handle. 8000lbs lot of weight for some people not so much for others. Need top be sure both you and your equipment can handle the load. As for the setup, for me I would rather spend a few xtra hours setting up the boat and enjoy the trip in comfort rather than getting on the water ASAP. However, I am not planning on trailering but a few times a year with more than just a weekend planned for my trips. You also have to think about your ability to do the hands on tasks. Some people are able to do the hands on tasks required to setup the boat and get it in the water better than others. Common sense/ability to work with your hands apply here. What one person would feel is to much work may be very little work for someone else. You have to answer those questions for yourself. This is just my opinion. Looks as if the 27cat is about as far as any sane person would want to go. I am leaning very hard in that direction but don't intend to make any decision until I have more hands on experience in the next year or so. Things I am really going to be looking at is the weight/length difference in the mast of the 27/30, the rigging requirement for for the27/30, ability to launch a 27/30 on ramp. Just a few things that popped into my mind as I am typing this. In the end you just have to factor in all the parts decide where the happy medium is and go with it. Again just my opinion. I value all opinions and advice the people on sailnet have taken time to give to me and you need to take that info into account when making an informed decision however its your decision to make right or wrong you will be the first to know if it was the right decision for you.


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## Kyhillbilly

Never really thought to ask before but just what could a person expect to pay a marina to launch a boat and raise the mast and then lower the mast and place it back on the trailer?


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## Sailormon6

Kyhillbilly said:


> Never really thought to ask before but just what could a person expect to pay a marina to launch a boat and raise the mast and then lower the mast and place it back on the trailer?


It depends on the marina, but it's in the hundreds of dollars anywhere you go, and the bulk of that cost will apply each way. As I recall, about 10 years ago, I paid a marina over $200 just to launch my 25, and another $200 to hoist it back onto the trailer, and I had to raise the mast and rig it.

IMO, the biggest boat you can trailer and enjoy is about 22-23 feet. The weight makes it easy to tow without having to use a monster truck. A half ton pu will do just fine. Even a mid-size suv can tow it. I had a C22 with a swing keel, and, with practice, could launch it, rig it, and sail away in 30 minutes, with my wife's help and no A-frame or similar device. It was so easy that I frequently towed it to a lake, launched it, sailed a few hours, retrieved it and towed it home. Later, when I owned a 25' boat, towing, launching and rigging was so burdensome that I wouldn't even think about doing all that for a few hours of sailing. The difference between trailering, launching and rigging a 22 and 25' boat is night and day.

When a boat manufacturer says his boat is trailerable, take it with a big grain of salt. If the boat is over 22-23 feet, it can be done, but will probably not be as easy as he claims.


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## ppiccolo1

Perfect thread! I'm in the same situation. I have a 3/4 ton suburban 454 that I pull my 32' travel trailer with and I want a sailboat for weekends on Lake Michigan in the Summer and full-time Florida winters. My budget is about $7,500 - $10,000, cash-in-hand. Suggestions? I will be single handing mostly with the occasional guest crew. My girlfriend has a 55 ft sea-ray, so I don't expect long visits... I'm looking 25/27. Suggestions?


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## INMA

I live in Australia where we have long distances between waterways so there is a healthy trailerable yacht market here.

Google Nolex 30, Robb Leg 28 or Farr B30 to look at some maxi trailerables.

I had a Southcoast Magnum 850 which is also a lot of yacht to drag around on the roads.

Note the three yachts above have fractional rigs which I believe are more suited to the lighter displacement trailerable rigs. Masthead rigs are inefficient and are a negative for a modern small yacht.

Americans have some great trailerables, the Hobbi 36 and Macgregor 36 come to mind as great sailboats although they are getting old.

Some may disagree but the Macgregor 26 power yachts have a place where sailors want to road and cruise with reasonable mobility. I have sailed on one and for most cruising situations it does the job.

I now have a Rob Legg 24 which weights in at about 800kg and suits my desire to move easily in a yacht that is efficient. My bottom line is I can easily tow rig launch and sail my yacht. I don't have to worry about crew, it takes me everywhere I want to go and my wife is happy with the destinations.

The RL24 accommodation is small, its a bit like living under a kitchen table, but we don't care. The cockpit is comfortable, between the boom tent and the bimini we are well protected and the drop keel and rudder let us get into places keel boats can only dream about.

Google Hill Inlet in the Whitsundays, that is one of my favourite destinations. Last trip to the Whitsundays we spent over 4 weeks cruising, most years we go to Paynesville, Gippsland Lakes which is truly trailer yacht heaven.

I appreciate the desire to go bigger and sail longer ocean passages, in my case I went smaller and am busy doing all the protected waters I can reach with my trailer in tow. The furthest I have travelled to sail was about 3000km North at Burdekin Dam (the weather on the coast sucked so we kept driving North and went inland).

Sailing is about attitude. If you think you need bigger to be happier then you need to rethink your attitude.


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## PontchatrainSailor

Take a look at some of the racing boats (Olson 30, Hobie 33 for overnighters, etc.) as they are light enough to be launched on most yacht club's cranes -- rather than the boatyards. Around here there is no charge for using the crane if your a member of the yacht club (or any club in the region). Most clubs have 2 ton cranes, some larger.

The other advantage of the two boats I listed above are: they are very sea worth (built for transpac), can be had very inexpensively, and go fast. The disadvantage is that there are little or no creature comforts. For instance the Olson has a good dry cabin with a v-berth and 2 bunks, but little privacy and no kitchen, etc.

There are some newer boats that are nicer (J/105 for instance), but it gets more expensive quick. Most newer racing boats are meant to be trailerable, but may not be able to be trailer launched.

The trailer launch item is your real limiting factor -- there are just no good options for a heavier boat.


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## rdubuque

I have a Parker Dawson 26. Very easy to launch and retrieve. 
Center cockpit, aft cabin has 2 real berths, great cockpit. We have cruised for weeks with 4 aboard.

Easy to singlehand, and fun to sail

Bob

http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=2940

Parkerdawson.com - Index


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## skygazer

rdubuque said:


> I have a Parker Dawson 26. Very easy to launch and retrieve.
> Center cockpit, aft cabin has 2 real berths, great cockpit. We have cruised for weeks with 4 aboard.
> 
> Easy to singlehand, and fun to sail
> 
> Bob
> Parkerdawson.com - Index


Interesting looking boat, your link did not work for me to sailboat data, a favorite site of mine. I removed it from the quote. Here is another link to sailboat data that seems to work:

PARKER DAWSON 26 sailboat on sailboatdata.com


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## TractorJohn

I may be getting in a little late since I've been absent awhile. But if I can help others, fine. I've been there and done that. Rather than mention all the obvious, I will point out problems I have had in no particular order.
you may run off end of ramp, I did once, there was a two foot drop off
your mast raising system may be heavy and very time consuming, Ive done a-frames, gin poles, high line systems and I've dropped masts, you should consider renting a cherry picker or man lift, getting boat positioned on trailer perfect will require guides-don't leave home without them, you must have a four wheel drive with low range to pull up a wet ramp, launching rigging, etc will take half a day minimum, much longer if you aren't any good, using a yard may cause you damage and they wont accept responsibility, hauling down the highway with or without permits is no problem, but make damm sure you have good trailer brakes, for once a season in and out I think the work is worth it, and having the boat at home is really nice in the off season, but for trailer sailing around the country a lot of the hassle goes away as you get smaller. TJ


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## zeta

H260 will do most of what you want and you will be able to launch and retrieve at will. The money saved on launching/retrieving can be used to get into a motel every several days to give all a break. I do not believe any trailerable will give you the space you are looking for and all trailer boats will be a compromise. A Nor'Sea 27' will take you around the world, but it will be cramped also w/4. Back to the Hunter 260, it has a pretty good resale value if you decide to move up and you will not even notice it behind your truck. Spending $400/$500 just to get in and out of water will also basically leave you stuck at a location where-as with an easy launcher you can pack up in a few hours and be on the road to a different location at 65mph. Good Luck.


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## Lou452

I live in Richmond, KY want to say hello! I would also like to know how big and what kinds of boats can be towed. Right now I have two 13 foot sailboats. Cave run is the best lake near us but the ramps have a good amount of grade. I just drive a ford ranger. Do you know of a ramp at cave run that is not steep? Please keep this thread alive. I would like to go big someday!


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## sail123

Interesting thread. I have lurked from the fall of 2011, maybe it is time to jump in.

I was looking for a 32' sailboat, because of my marina, that had a max size of 32' for a slip.

Reading everything I could get my hands on, and all I really knew starting out my search was my 25' MacGregor was way smaller a sailboat than I was going to be comfortable with.

My boat was not going to go on and off the trailer much, once off and once off each season because of the Nebraska winters.

Needing to keep this a small as possible expenditure, I was only looking at used sailboats. I wanted to step the mast ourselves, and launch and recover as well. No desire to pay big marina fees at every turn.

A Hunter 30 is too large to go down the roads without permits, and putting one of those in and out of the water would be a major project that everyone involved (for us) would dread. A Catalina the same thing. The 32' boat even worse! 

I happened upon a Clipper Marine 30 that got away, but not before I gave it a look over. I started studying that company, and learned they made a couple different 32's. The size boat I was looking for!

In the CM line, the 21, 23 & 26 and 30 has one level of rigging, and the 32's are built about 30% stronger. Not what one would call blue water, but many people do sail them in blue water if one is careful. 

I located a 32 aft cockpit with a 1976 hull number in the spring, and purchased it over the phone. It was a little ruff, but sail-able. A week later, I located what I think of as my favorite sailboat, one I figured I would never find, a CM32 aft cabin, center cockpit, ketch. Try telling your wife, you just purchased a second 32' sailboat in a week!

The 32 are too big to take in and out of the water every weekend, IMHO. That would wear me out; A Mac 25, yes, but a 32 foot keel boat, is to much for that regularity.

For us, it is a start of season, launch, and end of season, recover, and at 32', no big deal for once a year. 

We love our CM's They are super heavy duty compared to my Mac 25. Night and day differences as far as hull strength, deck strength. Yet, at about 7500 pounds on a trailer, it is still trailerable to a degree. 

Someone suggested the Hake 32RK. That lists at $135,000 for the Biscayne model, and the Belair and Impala version I am sure is pushing $200,000. I do not know about you, but with the economy the way it is, the 1% may be able to justify an expenditure like that, but I cannot swing it.

I payed about $3,000 for my 32 aft cockpit, and I have a little more in my aft cabin. Including trailers! These boats are pretty rare these days, but they are there if one looks.

People that talk down these boats, really do not know what they are talking about. The designer of these boats, is quoted as saying, he was very proud of his Clipper Marine sailboats. One writer said, they were built hell for stout. Most of the people that criticise these boats, have never been near one, and only go by stupid things they have read, and now repeat. 

If anyone was going to purchase a Clipper Marine, I would say, one of the best boats ever made, to do the job it was designed to do, trailer anywhere, and have lots of safe fun on the water.


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## skygazer

Nice post, thank you. I just came in and ate after finally stepping the mast on a Hunter 23 I've been working on. Rebuilt some of the interior, but only today tried to see if I had enough standing rigging to step the mast. On the trailer, hasn't been in the water in years. Trailer needs work also. Bought it from someone who never had it together or in the water. Lots smaller than yours! I never thought I wanted a Hunter, but I seem to be happy working on it. Sometimes I wonder if I like fixing sailboats almost more than sailing them, though of course I'd not be interested in fixing them if they didn't sail.

Thanks for sharing your experience. If I had a clipper bow I'd put a figurehead on it!


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## sail123

skygazer said:


> If I had a clipper bow I'd put a figurehead on it!


Hunter's are sweet! Hunter's and Catalina's. If I had the cash to be in a H or C in a 32', that may be where I would be now. I was forced to be resourceful, and look for what was available.

I am replacing my bow pulpit next winter with a longer bowsprit so I can use a longer foresail / roller furling. Going to be adding about 3 feet. As it sails now, my mizzen almost over powers the balance. I am hoping more pressure in front of the keel, does not mess up the way she sails. Hoping it makes it a little better.

Will replace #2 1" stainless tubing with the longer #1 going out onto #3 giving me the look of #4. What could go wrong? lol

I will keep the mainstay I have now, adding a second one out front. I will have the first Clipper Marine Cutter Ketch that I know of.

Next winters project? Thinking about a sugar scoop.


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## skygazer

sail123 said:


> Hunter's are sweet! Hunter's and Catalina's. If I had the cash to be in a H or C in a 32', that may be where I would be now. I was forced to be resourceful, and look for what was available.


That's how I got the Hunter. I also looked at what was available - on a decent trailer. The trailer turned out to be the hard part, lots of boats around here in Maine. Lots of rust here as well, roads are salted, salt water, salt air.

Now that I have the Hunter I'm quite addicted to it. Of course, if it doesn't sail well out it goes. Meanwhile, I finished the Port side bunk and slept in there on the last few hot nights, cools faster than the house. I finished a small foot pump sink and stove so I can make coffee in there in the morning. I set up two solar panels and a single battery (should really have another) and have a tiny freezer so I can make ice cubes with solar power - the greatest achievement of modern technology - solar ice cubes for my drink on a hot summer day! 

In "This Old Boat" Don Casey has a short discussion about changing rigging to a cutter set up. Seemed a lot more complex than I would have expected. Good book, I got mine for like $9 including shipping from Amazon. I expected a beat up paperback, but received a new looking hardcover.

I've found that raking my main (only) mast forward or back has a large effect on the helm. In my boat, I raked it back since I'd heard that was good for sail shape, but got terrible weather helm. I then raked it forward and got a nicely balanced helm, just a touch of weather helm and lots better sailing. Dragging that rudder through the water with weather helm slows you down.

Adding sail forward could give you lee helm, not good. I leave that stuff to the naval architects. That new pulpit and rigging sounds like it could double the cost of your boat. Pricey stuff! I consider you bold just for thinking of doing it.


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## sail123

If nothing else, it will give her a little more tongue weight, rarely a bad thing in a sailboat going down the highway. Lol

I will keep the original mainstay point and add a second one so I can keep the original configuration for a storm jib and a another jib in jib bags. I already have the Harken roller furling and sail, so no cost there. The extended bow pulpit safety rail I already have. Cost should not be too bad to bring it all together, doing all the work myself. 

I have contacts with the designer that worked with Crealock. He has all the original plans. I may pay him to do a little number crunching and tell me how best to proceed of if I just will not function. 

I will get on amazon and order that book.


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## skygazer

Sounds like you are using good judgment! I adjust tongue weight by moving the load forward or back. I weigh the tongue weight on a cheap bathroom scale, by using a 5 ft. beam and two blocks. One block is one foot away from the tongue and carries most of the weight. The other block is four feet away and has the scale on it and the beam on the scale. I weigh the (1/2) beam, then let the tongue down on the 4ft. away point. Whatever I get on the scale, I subtract the empty weight and multiply by four. This gives half the tongue weight if I'm remembering correctly, I usually know for sure by the time I do it. I'm using leverage to reduce the weight on the scale. I can have up to 1500 lbs. tongue weight on my truck. The blocks make the tongue on the beam the height of my hitch, I do it on level ground.


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## sail123

The tongue weight was all tongue in cheek. She already pulls down the road nicely.


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## dem45133

Hello all.

Well, very interesting thread and its good to see I am not the only crazy handy type out there that has the "sure I can, watch me" attitude. I've had a 27 foot shoal draft on a custom bunker-ed triple axle trailer I built for it for 5 years. On-trailer mast raising system. But this shoal draft doesn't sail all that well... was outboard powered, tiller transom mounted rudder, and weekend only quarters. Slept 6 though. Good boat to learn on at our local lake. and like you all, it came home over the winters and on two seasons where I was working away in NM. There really no water in NM to speak of, so I left it home in the shed. It didn't eat a thing over two years. But I wanted to upgrade... started looking and thinking.

Last week I bought a full fin keeled (4'9" draft) 30 ft Seafarer. It has all the upgrade features I wanted... a pedigree hull design, wheel pedestal helm, inboard diesel, full live-aboard systems all functional (H and C pressurized water, real head, shower, 10,000 btu AC, full 110 and 12vt systems, full galley including oven) under hull rudder.

Before buying, I did some calcs and it will fit on the trailer and be less than 13'6" high. Its a 10' beam so I need a wide load permit, but since I did OTR in a semi for three years quite some time ago, I could care less. Its 8900 lb displacement, give or take a little, plus trailer comes in at 12k... so I am good to go on my 1 ton diesel 4x4 dully design limit of 21k and the hitch system's 12k. I'll be adding an exhaust brake and a 4th axle just to have a fully cold brake set in reserve as well as another set of 4500 lb springs to aid in roll stability. The main three 4500 lb axles all are e braked.

I will be modifying the trailer with a slide out 14' tongue extension out of 6x6 1/4 wall square tube with grade 8 1" locking pins to get a bit deeper on ramps and that will enable that. Will not have to unhook. It'll operate sorta like the sliding tandems on a semi. Set the trailer brakes, release the lock pins, and extend or collapse it with the truck.

Designing up a multi section pivoting mast system as its mast is much more robust, longer and heavier than the 27's. Not fully sure yet on all the details, but it will be live operated on the boat *without* having to un-stay. I want it to collapse at the push of a button or a couple levers to 18" above the cabin for trailering and low bridges. Now, a few of you are saying..."you can't do that"... yea I can... conceptual design is 90%. I have a full shop with machine tools. So far I haven't found a show stopper, I'm pretty sure I'll figure it out. The reason it can stay stayed is that the mast head can track mostly straight down until about the half way point at which it moves aft. It'll have a 3" cam lift at the bottom which in the raised position is tensioning the stays. Released, it lowers the mast and allows for the pivot points to temporarily elongate the mast at the initial pivot movements. After that it won't matter.

Don't worry I'm not cutting my mast until I have a full size working system setup and tweaked out of the same size/dimensions/weight. Yea it'll be a project... but I've have many complicated projects... very few idea failures, but it can happen.

I also have thought about a few Mods to the boat to help with my wife's back issues. A lift between the cockpit and the cabin floor for one. A hard top over the cockpit is a given... not interested in baking in the sun. Considering adding a mizzen and making it a yawl config. The mizzen doubles as a derrick very easily.

Oh yea, Hello Eagle River WI... spent lots of time on the Chain-of-Lakes and its where my father and grandparents hail from (and are buried there in ER). (grandparents were in Sugar Camp to be precise on HY17) Spent a third of my life there and a lot of partying when there was a bar every couple miles and on every lake (early and mid 70s). You had to be pretty loaded back then get a DWI and you had to display a reason to be stopped. Never did. Back then there was more bears and deer on the road than cars. Id drive 55 miles home from my girlfreind's house way east of town and have one stop sign and one light (in ER) all the way home to Sugar Camp and maybe meet two cars. I can tell you that coming up at 90 or 95 mph on a 500 lb black bear ambling slowwwwwlllly across HY17 WILL heat up the brakes and make you pucker a little. He really doesn't give a hoot about you! You do not want to hit one of them at speed, or any speed for that matter. Its all different now and 3/4 of the bars are likely gone. Bar hopping is what we all did every Friday and Saturday night. Bear watching was also a Saturday night pastime out at the dump. Likely still is. For those of you too young to know this was before the national 55 mph speed thing and the speed limit was 70 day 65 night. Routinely cruised 90+. Miss those days, open good roads, no radar guns, big block V8s and no people or traffic.... just you and the road and yea a bear now and then.

Well I've rambled on long enough.. you all have fun now...

Later.
Dave


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## skygazer

dem45133 said:


> Last week I bought a full fin keeled (4'9" draft) 30 ft Seafarer. It has all the upgrade features I wanted... a pedigree hull design, wheel pedestal helm, inboard diesel, full live-aboard systems all functional (H and C pressurized water, real head, shower, 10,000 btu AC, full 110 and 12vt systems, full galley including oven) under hull rudder.
> 
> Before buying, I did some calcs and it will fit on the trailer and be less than 13'6" high. Its a 10' beam so I need a wide load permit, but since I did OTR in a semi for three years quite some time ago, I could care less. Its 8900 lb displacement, give or take a little, plus trailer comes in at 12k... so I am good to go on my 1 ton diesel 4x4 dully design limit of 21k and the hitch system's 12k. I'll be adding an exhaust brake and a 4th axle just to have a fully cold brake set in reserve as well as another set of 4500 lb springs to aid in roll stability. The main three 4500 lb axles all are e braked.


Wow, haven't finished my first cup of coffee, so I'm not sure if this is one of those crazy full moon dreams. Or am I awake, and Dave you are really making a 30ft Seafarer (great brand in my book) boat into a "trailer sailer". Awesome!



dem45133 said:


> 3/4 of the bars are likely gone. Dave


Did you mean 3/4 of the bars, or 3/4 of the bears are gone? 

Thanks for a most interesting post. I'm still working on my "bit of a wreck" Hunter 23 with a wing keel on a trailer. I'm at the point where I just want to fix the minimum and put it in the water (maybe today?) before our short Maine summer is over. See if it sails. I need to get it off the trailer so I can work on that, and be free to travel to the ocean or big lakes.

How about a bit more on the exhaust brake on the trailer? I don't know anything about it.

Edit: Upon reflection, how do you set the brakes on the trailer, don't you have to unhook the electrical connection to the truck to extend 14ft of trailer tongue?


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## SHNOOL

I launched this at our "standard" non steep ramp... without a trailer extension, without "strap launching." The truck's tow capacity is #13800, this is "light" compared to the full up Living Quarters Horse trailer I tow (that is #12000).










My point? You can launch nearly anything given the right ramp.

If you want a really nice, hearty, large, trailerable, I'd still say seaward: Hake Yachts 32RK


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## dem45133

skygazer said:


> Wow, haven't finished my first cup of coffee, so I'm not sure if this is one of those crazy full moon dreams. Or am I awake, and Dave you are really making a 30ft Seafarer (great brand in my book) boat into a "trailer sailer". Awesome!
> 
> Did you mean 3/4 of the bars, or 3/4 of the bears are gone?
> 
> Thanks for a most interesting post. I'm still working on my "bit of a wreck" Hunter 23 with a wing keel on a trailer. I'm at the point where I just want to fix the minimum and put it in the water (maybe today?) before our short Maine summer is over. See if it sails. I need to get it off the trailer so I can work on that, and be free to travel to the ocean or big lakes.
> 
> How about a bit more on the exhaust brake on the trailer? I don't know anything about it.
> 
> Edit: Upon reflection, how do you set the brakes on the trailer, don't you have to unhook the electrical connection to the truck to extend 14ft of trailer tongue?


No your not dreaming. I'm really planning to make the trailer hold the Seafarer. I have 2 months to get it out of its free slip in Baltimore. Picked up an old set of running gears for a farm wagon the other day... making a cradle for the old 27 to transfer it off the main trailer and free it up. This way when I do find a buyer for it they can winch it up on a rented car hauler and take it home. I'll make the bow a little high so it can overhang a normal pickup.

Both the bars and the bears (the Black Bear type... cops are there in a stronger force then ever I hear) are gone I think. Haven't been up home to ER in a long time, at least 15 years. Nope, that's a true story from 1973. 1969 Dodge Coronet (Super Bee cousin) drum brakes heat up FAST at high speed. Discs were barely invented yet. Only a few very high end cars had em then.

I'll build a "extension cord" for the trailer electrical for extending the tongue.

Exhaust brake on the trailer????? Maybe I should have worded that better... the exhaust brake is an butterfly type orificed baffle just behind the turbo that blocks the exhaust flow and creates about 60 psi in back pressure on the engine, creating additional resistance to hold back on long downgrades. Its a retarder brake sorta like a Jake Brake on a semi... but a totally different method than the Jake.

The Seafarer displaces ~9000, actually maybe 10k with all the liveaboard systems, trailer weighs ~ 3000. Truck (2001 Dodge 3500 HO cummins 6sp 4x4 dually) about 7200. Not sure what your pulling your 12 k with, but please be careful especially on long downgrades. 10 miles (yes ten miles) of 6% downgrade holding back 12k with only the brakes, and only one or two trailer brakes will fry your all the service brakes if your not holding back with the drive line somehow. If you have a gas engine and can let it windup some in a lower gear you'll get more retarding that the slower turn Cummins diesel will. All fine and dandy in the flat of the Midwest... But there is a lot of 5 and 6% grades between here and Baltimore. DO NOT take those long steep grades lightly!!! The run-out ramps for the semi's are there for a reason. Gravity is a unrelenting unforgiving SOB!

Added a couple pictures. The blue one is my current 1978 bayliner Buccaneer, the green one the Seafarer. Never did get time to paint that trailer, but because I'm going east into Kastopo (sp?) Land I think I will this time. Not planning all that serious of trailer mods other than the tounge extension system... I'll raise the bunkers about three feet (everything is fully adjustable BTW). I designed the triple axles as a bolt in slider (six 3/4" grade 8 bolts)... after a 192 holes I drilled (including the pilots) it can move back and forth about 6 ft at 6" intervals for weight balance. I'll add some to its subframe for the forth axle. It will be independent of the brake controller and hard wired to full 12 volt as an "always cold full on emergency brake" with the flip of a switch. All four axles have brakes... can't have too many.


----------



## sail123

Rereading several posts in this thread, I find myself shaking my head. 

First off, there is no such thing as a poorly designed William Crealock sailboat. About the Clipper Marine line, his work partner for many years, also a gentleman named Bill, tells me William was "Very Proud Of His Clipper Marine Sailboats. ". 

Most people that take the time to post a negative post in a Internet forum, have never seen one up close, and are only repeating jibber ish from other people in forums that also have no first hand experience with these fine water craft. 

Personally, I would never bad mouth a sailboat I have never sailed, never owned, and know little about. One comment was the 32 and the 30 were the same boat with a different top. Nothing could be farther from the truth. The differences in these two distinct sailboats are many, including hull molds. 

No one sailboat holds the key to everybody's ideal sailboat design. That is accepted. However, as I read sailboat forums and see people posting false statements about any sailboat for others to read and assume the information is true, really ticks me off deep inside. 

Find a CM 32 in good repair, and you have found a William Crealock design well deserving the heritage. All William Crealock Clipper Marines are well built trailer sailboats able to go from land to water and back to land again with ease and grace. 

I am dammed well proud of my CM 32 aft cabin center cockpit ketch. She is one of the better looking yachts in any marina for a fraction of the money others have in their 30 foot class boats

In my opinion, William Crealock hit a home run out of the park with the CM 32, in both the aft cabin and aft cockpit models. I own them both, and they are proud almost 40 year old sailboats, still going strong.


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## blt2ski

Sail,

Something is telling me this rant about crealock design boats does not belong here! I do not see anywhere where any one knocked one of his boats. In fact, they were not mentioned too much in this thread frankly!

Marty


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## ImASonOfaSailor

just get one of these! View Boat Photos - YachtWorld.com


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## Squidd

Hey Dave... Go For It...

Eagle River still alive and well and even in these times has the "very Small town" attitude and feel to it...

Been here 35 years (back to the "Barefoot Charlie" days) So maybe we ran across each other back then...

....


> its good to see I am not the only crazy handy type out there that has the "sure I can, watch me" attitude.


----------



## vtsailguy

I might offer a slightly different viewpoint on trailerable boats.

I have an O'Day 28 swing keel and a trailer for it. It weighs 8000lbs and I can just pull the whole thing with my Tundra.

Great boat, lots of room, sleeps my family of 5, have been cruising for a week at a time on it.

But here is the thing, I won't be launching it from a ramp. In fact, its a keel stepped mast, which I need done at a yard. While at it, I just get them to launch with a lift. Takes 5 minutes and $200.

But, I really have no intention in driving all over. My reasons for having a trailerable boat are that I live 1.5 hours from the lake and in a snow state. I can bring it home, save storage costs, work on it in comfort and cover it in style. Next year, I might go to the sea and spend a season there.

I wanted something trailerable so I could winter it at my home *and* have the option to try new waters for a season at a time.


----------



## dem45133

vtsailguy said:


> I might offer a slightly different viewpoint on trailerable boats.
> 
> I have an O'Day 28 swing keel and a trailer for it. It weighs 8000lbs and I can just pull the whole thing with my Tundra.
> 
> Great boat, lots of room, sleeps my family of 5, have been cruising for a week at a time on it.
> 
> But here is the thing, I won't be launching it from a ramp. In fact, its a keel stepped mast, which I need done at a yard. While at it, I just get them to launch with a lift. Takes 5 minutes and $200.
> 
> But, I really have no intention in driving all over. My reasons for having a trailerable boat are that I live 1.5 hours from the lake and in a snow state. I can bring it home, save storage costs, work on it in comfort and cover it in style. Next year, I might go to the sea and spend a season there.
> 
> I wanted something trailerable so I could winter it at my home *and* have the option to try new waters for a season at a time.


Ditto on all all but one. After what it just cost to have the new boat towed to a marina properly (not a single boat tow that was offered by someone that I did not know (previous owner), I elected to have US Boat and Tow do it... $550 but worth the peace of mind, and another couple hundred to pull clean (years worth of growth on the Chesapeake) and block until I can get there with the trailer, I want to have the ability to NOT pay marinas. It'll take some engineering and building, but I also want to be able to lower the mast underway say for a low bridge. I also do not want to unstay either. Lot of custom engineering and the milling machine will get a little exercise I'm sure. But I believe I can do it. Still designing, but I have a lot of other things to do on it first.

Dave


----------



## dem45133

Squidd said:


> Hey Dave... Go For It...
> 
> Eagle River still alive and well and even in these times has the "very Small town" attitude and feel to it...
> 
> Been here 35 years (back to the "Barefoot Charlie" days) So maybe we ran across each other back then...
> 
> ....


Nice to hear... I miss the Northwoods in many ways. I was there in the summer of 73, then 76 and 77 in ER (worked at Oneida farms in Three Lakes). Do you remember a young man that looked 15 (yet was 22) driving a Dark Green 69 Dodge Coronet 2 DR HT with slotted chromes and wide tires? If so that was me... only car in town like it. I do MISS that car! Then I went away to college in River Falls. Mom and Dad went down to Sugar Camp then and later to Rhinelander. Dad passed in 85 and Mom stayed in Rhinelander until 01 when she sold her place and moved down here. Being she was alone and 72 by then the winters were getting a little much for her. She passed in 09 and they are both buried in ER.

Dave


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## meboater

I would go for the boat referenced earlier, as it can be towed without a hitch.

"Excellent trailer, made 600-mile trip last summer without a hitch, tow her anywhere without worry."

How much boat you need for your family all depends on your family. Some families live in an igloo, some find only 1 bathroom per person inconvenient.

My wife and I just spent a month on our Seaward 25 with two Australian Shepherds.

If I had the truck for the job, I would probably do what you are planning, with a Cat 27 or similar, and plan on a full day to launch and retrieve. Would probaly do it in less.

One thing to consider with the trailer is to make the back bunks or supports adjustable. The middle of the boat is wider than the stern, and will have to pass between the back supports. If they are not adjustable, you will have to go deep enough to float over them.

Post pics when you are done with the project.


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## dem45133

*Re: Largest Semi-Trailerable Sailboat - 30 seafarer update*



dem45133 said:


> Hello all.
> 
> Well, very interesting thread and its good to see I am not the only crazy handy type out there that has the "sure I can, watch me" attitude. I've had a 27 foot shoal draft on a custom bunker-ed triple axle trailer I built for it for 5 years. On-trailer mast raising system. But this shoal draft doesn't sail all that well... was outboard powered, tiller transom mounted rudder, and weekend only quarters. Slept 6 though. Good boat to learn on at our local lake. and like you all, it came home over the winters and on two seasons where I was working away in NM. There really no water in NM to speak of, so I left it home in the shed. It didn't eat a thing over two years. But I wanted to upgrade... started looking and thinking.
> 
> Last week I bought a full fin keeled (4'9" draft) 30 ft Seafarer. It has all the upgrade features I wanted... a pedigree hull design, wheel pedestal helm, inboard diesel, full live-aboard systems all functional (H and C pressurized water, real head, shower, 10,000 btu AC, full 110 and 12vt systems, full galley including oven) under hull rudder.
> 
> Before buying, I did some calcs and it will fit on the trailer and be less than 13'6" high. Its a 10' beam so I need a wide load permit, but since I did OTR in a semi for three years quite some time ago, I could care less. Its 8900 lb displacement, give or take a little, plus trailer comes in at 12k... so I am good to go on my 1 ton diesel 4x4 dully design limit of 21k and the hitch system's 12k. I'll be adding an exhaust brake and a 4th axle just to have a fully cold brake set in reserve as well as another set of 4500 lb springs to aid in roll stability. The main three 4500 lb axles all are e braked.
> 
> ...
> 
> Later.
> Dave


10-27-12 Though I'd update you all...

Nope the Seafarer 30 is STILL not home... but I'm working it...

Lots of issues to solve that were not anticipated when I bid the boat...

1) Getting the 27ft off the trailer to free it up. I had checked on this before bidding and was told it was not an issue by the two local marinas here that had traveling lifts. Turned out the marina's on the Ohio River here are not set up for narrow hull deep keeled sailboats and there are reasons... not many under powered sailboats want to play with barges and current, and neither do I... so their lift straps were are simply too long to lift the 27 to a keel height of 44 inches to transfer to my yard dolly (which was on my flatbed to haul home)... ended up building my own lift here at home... sized to also handle the 9000 lbs the new seafarer weighs... Money I hadn't planned on... ~$1600 in material plus two 3 ton chain hoists, but problem solved. Trailer freed.

2) I did decide to upgrade my axles as two were built in 1955 or so and while were the big spindles and cradled by 3" C channel and plenty strong... they appear to look like a mobile home axle derivative and to DOT it would be a hard sell that they were not. The 3rd axle was a mobile home derivative that I built and while it had brand new Dexter 2x12 7K brake system still was a mobile home derivative... still a 6k tube and spindles and I address their weak brakes, but its still a derivative. Read too many horror stories about Maryland and their outlawing of mobile home derived trailer axles... according to them if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck... its a duck no matter what we rebuild them as. It would be red tagged at the first scale. So I elected to update to three brand new Dexter 7k drop axles with 8 bolt wheels and new tires all the way around... $2700 in all (ouch!!). I also needed to buy fenders as it had none... also a DOT requirement... another $300.

OK... pulled it out to Baltimore to load and haul home (I'd already had the boat put on the hard at a marina as leaving it in a slip was risky with me being 450 miles away)

3) While my calcs were correct for height etc... securely balancing a 9000 lb elephant on one toe is a challenge. Bunkers had to be 48" tall in the middle and 55" on the ends ... and lead to seriously large bracing requirements. While I had modified them at home as best could be without the boat present, and took the welder to secure once adjusted... I felt I did not have enough bracing and bought more angle... BUT I had not taken the torch and was not really able to fabricate properly with proper gussets etc. In addition, my 60 or 70 year old Forney did not like living under a tarp in the pickup and started acting up. Did not trust my welds and it was taking on too much of a cobbled look so I decided against hauling this fall and that I needed to do much more serious modifications to the trailer. REMEMBER, I designed the trailer for a long shallow keel (shoal draft) more or less flat bottomed 27ft Bayliner Buccanner... NOT a 30ft full keeled curved hull Seafarer. Way too much weight on the four 3" C channel cross members where the short 5 ft of keel and 9000 lbs were... bunker way too high to stabilize properly... and the fact that with the slightly larger diameter over slung axles with 3000 lbs more on the springs now left only a 1/2 of travel left till bottoming on the frame (springs were not over loaded, but used much more of their travel that the 6000 lb bayliner did)... just too tight and I was not going to risk my new Dexters... reluctantly, but smartly, I decided this configuration would not work. Mapped the hull and took accurate dimensions off the boat itself (verses extrapolation from a "maybe to scale" drawing)... swore, made arrangements for over wintering there, winterized the boat, and headed back to the house.

So now its rebuild the trailer for THIS boat this winter.
1) Move the axles to an underslung installation (also raises the main frame 4")
2) build a dropped main keel support suitable to the 9000 lbs (less bunker weight) 5" from the ground while maintaining all compression loads and no shear loads on the welds (lowering the boat 15"), going to an independent suspension on the axles while maintaining the ability to slide the whole triple group for weight balance. Yea, it can be done, and have the design already thought through.
3) redesign the bunker support framing and incorporate real screw type support pads...
4) and design for an open rear end frame structure for float on float off.

I'll be busy... but its entirely doable... remember... I built it the first time.

As far as the changes to DOT and permitted loads... WOW it was a PIA but I got it accomplished. Remember anything now (since 2009) with a CGVW of 10001 lbs or more is considered a commercial vehicle and has to conform to 49 CFR.... had I known all this I may not have gone with a 10ft beam. If you want to know I'll pass on what I've learned.... its not like it used to be at all. "non-com" really doesn't exist above 10001 lbs now.

Thought you all might be curious as to my crazy man antics.

Dave


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## skygazer

I always have more trouble with the trailer than the boat. I've looked into loads of boat/trailer sales here and NONE of the trailers had working brakes, only a darn few had broken rusted brakes, and very few even had that square plate on the axle where brakes can be attached. All were of a size that required brakes on all axles.

This summer I purchased and rebuilt a Hunter 23 wing keel on a trailer with broken brakes and not a speck of wiring anywhere. After making the trailer legal and the boat usable I hauled it to the ocean.

After only having full keel boats, which sit flat on the trailer, I'll have to say that a small keel in the middle makes the boat want to hobby horse on the trailer when going over rough roads, which is about all I went on. Make sure to have very strong support at the bow and maybe something removable at the stern to overcome this problem. I also need more tongue weight, but can't move the axle any further back, so I need to move the bow support forward. I already cut out the guides to allow the boat as far forward as possible for the trip home last week.

Sounds like you are doing things right!


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## whroeder

I've come in late to this discussion, but no one has mentioned the Mega








I think that might be a MEGA 30 OD (C&C) 
I saved the image when I was thinking about if I ever upgraded from my Macgregor 26X


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## Stumble

I would also add that going to multi-hulls can place a lot more boat on a trailer than a mono-hull. The entire Corsair line (including the 36) is trailerable. Though to be fair the larger boats are more transportable than truly trailerable.

For many in the marine industry a trailerable boat is one that can be easily trailered, and go from packed away for the road to out sailing in less than an hour or so. Transportable typically referred to boats that can be moved by trailer, without specialty permits, by nothing larger than a standard hitch, and can be put in the water without outside assistance (think cranes for stepping the mast).


----------



## vtsailguy

I have managed to find a great 28' O Day with a swing keel complete with trailer. I can just about pull it on my Tundra. Its a sturdy boat and sails well. The only downside is that its keel stepped so I can raise the mast myself, have to get the yard to do it.


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## Marcel D

Try a beneteau 32 in florida with a swing keel????


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## dem45133

*30 ft Seafarer trailer sailer update...*

Still working the trailer over... had to stop when the cold weather came. Cut all the old rigging off last fall and spend a month or so in CAD designing. Have the new axle subframe built (triples expanded out to accommodate dropped keel support, keel will be 5" from the ground in between the front and rear axles, center axle will be stubbed into this keel trough and pivot sorta like the old VWs). Required totally custom suspension rigging (built custom 20" equalizers with 100% lateral stability and twist control).

Starting on the main center support drop members now.

I wanted this finished by the 30th April... but the weather hasn't cooperated. Oh, had to buy a new welder... the old Forney did not survive the trip last fall (more arc inside the case than out! even after sitting all winter). Found a new-old-stock Century 250 AC/DC. 13 years old but new and Made in the USA (Minnesota)... and copper wound not alum as most of the lower cost buzz boxes are now. $450. Works well... 1/8th 7018 rod on DC most of the time. Have some 6013 for vertical welds but its a bit hard to use... have totally change you technique to really flow in on the edges. Still dialing in 5/32 7018.

Later... Dave


----------



## sail123

blt2ski said:


> Sail,
> 
> Something is telling me this rant about crealock design boats does not belong here! I do not see anywhere where any one knocked one of his boats. In fact, they were not mentioned too much in this thread frankly!
> 
> Marty


Something set me off, maybe I was sitting on a hot potato? lol


----------



## bobperry

Here is a 40'er that I designed that is very trailerable.


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## Lake Superior Sailor

I have been thinking / dreaming of a Cal 40 & building a trailer for it! Time will tell, & I will bring pictures when it happens...Dale


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## dem45133

40 foot... That would be a problem here. Maybe if the bow overhangs the tow vehicle a little... as at least here in Ohio 40 ft is the longest non-com trailer allowed on a pull behind. Your also not allowed more than 4 ft of overhang. That trailer above would not be legal in Ohio with that amount of overhang of it's "cargo". I designed a fully "removable during launch" DOT Bar/Light bar behind the main frame that gives a little protection to my rudder, at least a light to moderate bump. While at this time I'm designing around the 30' seafarer.... I am building in capacity to gross the trailer to 20k... who knows, I may find a 36 or a 40 I'd like better sometime. There is a lot of adjustment capability I'm building in. Be more than my little 1 ton will want then... and I may need something heavier to tow it later on. Maybe an antique Mack single axle 350 9 speed. It would drag around 20k like it was bob-tailing almost. 5-6 mpg with the Mack at 80k back in the day. 11-12 mpg with the 1 ton with only the 10k trailer. It'll be slight less with 13k (we won't bother calculating on 10 mile long 6-7% up grades).

(yea, I must be getting old... well or something like that.... I saw a picture of a nicely restored 85 Mack MH613 in an Antique Truck Magazine. Antique!!! Hate it when that happens! :laugher I put 600,000 miles on one from 1986 through 1989 and it was brand new when I got in it.)

later... again


----------



## dem45133

Stumble said:


> I would also add that going to multi-hulls can place a lot more boat on a trailer than a mono-hull. The entire Corsair line (including the 36) is trailerable. Though to be fair the larger boats are more transportable than truly trailerable.
> 
> For many in the marine industry a trailerable boat is one that can be easily trailered, and go from packed away for the road to out sailing in less than an hour or so. Transportable typically referred to boats that can be moved by trailer, without specialty permits, by nothing larger than a standard hitch, and can be put in the water without outside assistance (think cranes for stepping the mast).


For those who may not know... I believe his use of the term "standard hitch" is anything up to a Class V receiver hitch 2-5/16" ball (various ratings but around the 14 or 15k mark mostly). For those of us with 1 tons or 1 1/2 tons that's pretty common. I haven't seen a receiver hitch rated higher than that... but they didn't have any when I was buying mine, maybe now they do?

Above that one starts getting into dedicated pintel hitches, I think. Its what you see say behind a 5 ton dump truck towing a larger breed rubber tired back hoe or a small dozer on a heavy flat bed. I haven't researched the capacity of pintel hitches but its up there.

If I go to a larger dedicated tow vehicle and not my 1 ton for something more than 13 or 14k... I'll research it then. Likely get full away from pull behind and covert the trailer to a fifth wheel. I'd convert now but that's a lot of weight added and reduces the net I can pull with the 01 Dodge 1 ton Cummins on hills. (a v8 3/4 can pull 20k on the plains... just not legal). Even if I go to a bigger boat I'd really like to stay below 26,000 total gross so I do not need a CDL. Although... since 49 CFR is "commercial".... I fail to see how it applies to a private recreational use not-for-hire regardless of weight... so long as one knows what they are doing. A CDL does not mean they actually know anything except maybe how to keep a log book. When I drove OTR before CDL I met many new drivers fresh out of truck driving school that I would never ride behind. But its a fight I really do not want to get into with them (DOT).


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## dem45133

*Re: Largest Semi-Trailerable Sailboat ??? 30 Seafarer Update*

She's FINALLY home!!!

For those of you who did not read my earlier threads I am "Trailer Sailing" a 30 ft Seafarer Swiftsure deep keel (tall mast, evidently).

As I posted before, I elected not to haul it home from Baltimore last fall as the simple mods from a conventional bunker system for the previous 27 bayliner Buccaneer just would not work for this boat. Redesigned and rebuilt the trailer this spring.

Overwintering, mast drop, and lifts were killing me. I had it at the marina in Baltimore for 10 months after buying it in water... better than $3000 spent for next to nothing tangeble.

Trailer and boat fit like a glove.... keel support is 7" above the ground in the middle of the triple axle group (good trick BTW). Incorporated 8 Brunnel screw pads instead of bunkers. zero flex frame (trussed in two planes).

The boat is quite a bit heavier than its spec'd displacement (7520 and 8600 respectively), by almost a 1000 lbs yet its bone dry and fully stripped of anything removable. Boat still weighed 9500. She'll weigh another 1000 by the time its re-powered, fully geared and wet. Combined gross was 22700 (trailer, boat, and 1 ton-with retarder).

I just eased it up and down the big grades and down the hyway. 50-55 mph typical. Its all my stock Cummins and 3:55 gears really wanted though. I may think on installing 4:10 gears later on... will see.

Now that its home I can finish the aft end of the trailer for float on-off and incorporate a 20 ft tongue extension system, both of which needed the boat in place to finish their designs.

I'll post some pictures when I get the truck unpacked and the camera in the house.

Later...
Dave


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## tommays

Congratulations on the safe move


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## skygazer

Wow, I'm totally impressed! I also must congratulate you on rebuilding the trailer and bringing her home. Quite the accomplishment, and way beyond my abilities.

I'm pecking away at my trailer every now and then to try to achieve a better ride. I'm finding that there is a lot more flex than I realized in the trailer frame, even with my very light weight Hunter 23 (around 2500 or 3000 lbs.). I've moved the upright with the winch and "V" block forward, and shoved the boat ahead to increase tongue weight. Moving the boat forward on the trailer also put the keel more centered over the cross members on the trailer, which support the keel bunk. I still need to get some more verticle support forward to keep the boat from seesawing (hobby horsing) on it's short keel, and build new guides for the keel since I cut the existing ones out.

Summer just started here yesterday after a cold spring, so I don't feel too bad about not being ready. Being able (I hope) to cruise down the road will be worth the trouble. I hated the way it rode last year! Heading to the ocean from here goes across the grain of the land, and the roads are rough.


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## dem45133

One thing I did learn on this is sailboats are carried much different than planing hulls. If you think about it, one has to haul the lead keel... and then support the boat around it, all around it.

I initially had a bunker system under the Bucc... totally inadequate for a rounded (in all directions) deep short keel hull. Ended up buying 8 Brunnel screw pads... that let me dial in the hull support just right.

float off is not any issues... but float on may be a challenge... it has to pivot down as the bow comes up with the trailer and "land" on the keel within a 1/4" for and aft. Still thinking on that, but I'll figure out something.

Thanks for the vote of confidence... there were many hours pondering how to handle the various forces.


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## Rhapsody-NS27

with all these pages of towing/trailering boats, I'm happy with the one I got, a Nor'sea 27. Don't have to worry about tow permits and it's built to go just about anywhere I would want.


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## dem45133

Actually the permits themselves are not a problem although you are limited to daylight dry conditions. I bought a 100 dollar annual wide load boat only permit for any road in OH. J.J. Keller did the MD and WV permits.


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## dem45133

*Re: Largest Semi-Trailerable Sailboat ??? Seafarer trailer project*

Since some you may be building, if I can get it work I'll post some pictures of the trailer project... from the initial donor trailer to what it was under the Bucc, to the 1st mods for this Seafarer and the second mods (rebuild) where it is now. This trailer started life in the 50s or 60s as an old flatbed hauler. It was then stretched by a previous owner via a totally cobbled together tongue extention for his 26 ft cruiser. (pic1) Thats how it was when I bought it in 07. I couldn't handle the cobbled up tongue and totally rebuilt the trailer from the ground up... adding two 20 ft 6"C channels that extended the bed to 24 ft plus another 7 ft into a wrap around tongue and a sliding triple subframe setup. That build took 3 weeks full time 12 hours days (pic2).

I used it this way for 5 years under the Buccaneer, never did get it painted in that life.

Then I bought the Seafarer 30 but it was in Baltimore. I confess I didn't think that through enough, but what it is, is what it is.

Now I need the Bucc off the trailer... none of the local Ohio river could get it high enough to transfer to a yard jockey I built for it setting on top of my flatbed... so I ended up building my own lift. Finally had my trailer freed up to mod for the Seafarer. Since it was so late in the season, I decided not to sell the Bucc until spring.

Installed new Dexter axles due to going to gastopo land, raised the bunkers and added a bow support for rocking control and headed to Baltimore. Set the boat on it... (pic3), but I was not comfortable with the tall bunker support needed, welder issues, and decided to overwinter and redesign the trailer for this boat proper.

Got it home and removed everything that was not needed. Found a freeware Cad program and began designing and engineering. Designed a drop frame system that carries a keel trough as well as held the vertical 2x2 for the center four Brunnel screw pads (pic4).

This spring when the weather warmed (open shop) I started building. It was a bear as my back does not handle heavy lifting anymore and there is no overhead hoist or heavy structure to lift from in that building.

The whole cradle and trough system and the totally rebuilt and stretched totally custom triple group subframe and suspension is movable along the main frame rails... abet with a lot of unbolting and labor... but its not welded in. Didn't have to move it. I worked and worked with the one drawing I had and some measurements I had to determine the exact CG for that keel. Spreadsheets are a wonderful invention. I was within an inch of my anticipated placement for 1200lbs tongue weight (pic4).

I then installed (took the new welder, Baltimore's weather and a bad tarp killed my old one last year) and set up the brunnel wedge frames and screwpads for for and aft support. I could not build these until the boat was in place. Finally it was ready to setup the DOT wideload stuff and strapped it down. Trailer fit the boat like a glove now.

Took it to the closest truck stop and scaled... 22700... 1000 lbs heavier than it was supposed to weigh. Packed up all the tools and welder and boxed up a pallet to send them home via R&L. removed 665 lbs is all but it all counted as I was in gastopo land and the published max for my 01 Dodge was 21800.

I messed up... I should have stopped for a picture in the Alleghenies along the interstate but did think about it. I was more concerned with negotiating the 5 and 6% multi mile downgrades.

Home (pic5)

PS only 5 pics allowed, but you get the idea.... I have a 100 or so from all the trailer builds and mods since 07. If you want to know any details or the engineering... PM me.


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## skygazer

dem45133 said:


> float on may be a challenge... it has to pivot down as the bow comes up with the trailer and "land" on the keel within a 1/4" for and aft.


I agree with the "float on" pivot problem. My experience when floating on is that I crank the boat tight to the forward stops, but when I pull ahead and the boat settles onto the trailer it rotates (pivots) on the keel as the trailer rises to meet it, and ends up with the bow several inches back from the bow block. Then I have to winch it forward again. 
Hope you can leave more than 1/4 inch play aft for the keel, to allow for the trailer on the tilted ramp rising up to meet the boat floating level. I suppose it's a bigger problem with steeper ramps, but it's easier to float off on a steep ramp so I prefer them.


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## skygazer

Rhapsody-NS27 said:


> with all these pages of towing/trailering boats, I'm happy with the one I got, a *Nor'sea 27*. Don't have to worry about tow permits and it's built to go just about anywhere I would want.


I checked out your site and read some reviews. Looks like a super sweet sailboat! No wonder you are happy with it. I've never seen one, but will keep an eye out.

From bending sheet metal on a brake, I know that each bend adds a lot of rigidity. I imagine that "clinker built" shape makes for a very rigid hull!


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## Rhapsody-NS27

skygazer said:


> I checked out your site and read some reviews. Looks like a super sweet sailboat! No wonder you are happy with it. I've never seen one, but will keep an eye out.
> 
> From bending sheet metal on a brake, I know that each bend adds a lot of rigidity. I imagine that "clinker built" shape makes for a very rigid hull!


They definitely have a good following with many happy owners. Many think it's a wooden boat because of the lapstrake shaped hull but it's all fiberglass and it adds to its beauty, with lots of wood inside it. It's built to go anywhere. 4 of them have circumnavigated and others tend to travel often.

Seeing you are in Maine, I saw this one for sale that's closest to you.
1976 Nor'Sea Sailboat
The asking price seems high to me but that's just from the limited info shown.

They are usually sold between people through the Yahoo owners group. If you were interested in getting one, join the group and post a message of your interest. Never know what comes up. Just know, even for the age, they tend to sell higher than other boats of the same vintage.

Good Luck!


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## dem45133

skygazer said:


> I agree with the "float on" pivot problem. My experience when floating on is that I crank the boat tight to the forward stops, but when I pull ahead and the boat settles onto the trailer it rotates (pivots) on the keel as the trailer rises to meet it, and ends up with the bow several inches back from the bow block. Then I have to winch it forward again.
> Hope you can leave more than 1/4 inch play aft for the keel, to allow for the trailer on the tilted ramp rising up to meet the boat floating level. I suppose it's a bigger problem with steeper ramps, but it's easier to float off on a steep ramp so I prefer them.


the through has a good 14" inches it can run fore and aft in... but it has to be very close to proper location for the weight balance (tongue weight). At the moment is not rollered... just pads. I have some ideas on locking pivots, one on each side to guide the boat fore and aft as it pivots... more weight though.


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## skygazer

dem45133 said:


> the trough has a good 14" inches it can run fore and aft in... but it has to be very close to proper location for the weight balance (tongue weight). At the moment is not rollered... just pads. I have some ideas on locking pivots, one on each side to guide the boat fore and aft as it pivots... more weight though.


OK, now I understand. That 14 inch play in the trough sounds good. When she comes out wet and slippery a good winch should pull it forward the last couple inches.

My boat is not rollered either, just bunks. Yet with the chalky ablative bottom paint that dried to the bunks all winter holding her, I was still able to boost her ahead 6 inches, a bit at a time, by reaching over my head to the stern and shoving and shoving. Probably not that good for my back, but it shows that sliding isn't that difficult.


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## skygazer

Rhapsody-NS27 said:


> They definitely have a good following with many happy owners. Many think it's a wooden boat because of the lapstrake shaped hull but it's all fiberglass and it adds to its beauty, with lots of wood inside it. It's built to go anywhere. 4 of them have circumnavigated and others tend to travel often.
> 
> Seeing you are in Maine, I saw this one for sale that's closest to you.
> 1976 Nor'Sea Sailboat
> The asking price seems high to me but that's just from the limited info shown.
> 
> They are usually sold between people through the Yahoo owners group. If you were interested in getting one, join the group and post a message of your interest. Never know what comes up. Just know, even for the age, they tend to sell higher than other boats of the same vintage.
> 
> Good Luck!


I'd love to own one, but I'll just enjoy them from a distance, too pricey for me at this time. I like to sail as cheaply as I can, so I don't feel too guilty. I'm not going on long offshore passages, just fooling around the coast line and larger lakes.

I can surely appreciate quality though, and if I see one for sale I'll check it out.


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## Sal Paradise

Gawd I'd hate to think of rigging and launching those beasts for a day sail.


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## dem45133

Sal Paradise said:


> Gawd I'd hate to think of rigging and launching those beasts for a day sail.


I do not know about others, but we're not really looking at day sails... but vacation sails at whatever body of water we choose, and summer slips where ever we choose on Lake Erie is the plan.

Wondering about what it would take to sail say from just north of Detroit MI on Lake Huron, up and around and down Lake Michigan to Muskegon. We have friends in between Muskegon and Detriot on I96 where we could leave the truck and trailer for a month or whatever. Who knows yet... just wondering out loud... maybe simply be too far to do in four weeks and not be too much like work. Its a ways around there.

BTW, the replacement Farymann S30 (V twin) is home now. 900 hrs is all it has... and was a running takeout due to bad hull mounts... he decided to re-power with more horse in his 38 ft 20000 lb sail and since that would have required the same work on the engine bed as a repair would need, he decided now was the time (well two years ago). The engine pushed it 30 miles the day before it was pulled. Its been stored inside. Its now home getting ready to bench it up and test run... may or may not refresh it... depends on oil seepage... if it needs seals I'll open it up and refresh it. It'll almost triple the hp over the single cylinder Farymann that's in this 30 ft Seafarer now. Exactly what I want, hull speed at 1/2 rpm... lost of extra thrust when needed.

I am "collecting" Farymann engines BTW if any of you have any you'd think of parting with. S30, R30, or P22. The V twins. Complete is preferred, but will considier others. PM me.

Dave


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## tomandchris

Four weeks should be plenty for that trip even if you take your time and enjoy the scenery. If you enjoy the scenery too much you can always pull out somewhere north and not have much more driving from the middle of the state.


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## dem45133

Just an update...

The 30 ft Seafarer is "On Hold" at the minute. I ended up taking a job that is 1600 miles from the house. Left out of here Aug 22, just flew in last Friday (Dec 20) for the Christmas holidays. Four months since I saw my wife, but we've done this before. Doing my kind of projects in a rented apartment were my work is, is impossible, but one does what ever they have to for money and health insurance. It'll just sit there under the tarp and wait for me. No options... always have to have work. Not able to retire yet... but it will be my retirement toy in a few years. But being that it lives on its trailer under a tarp AT HOME... means its stopped eating too until I decide to feed it.

next steps:

- paint the hull (bottom for sure, maybe the topsides)
- pull the single cyl Farymann and rig and install the V twin
- design up a conventional mast raising system (not hard)... but I also am designing a totally "hands off" folding mast system (I'll remove and leave Seafarer's original mast intact...but this will take a couple winters to build so I''ll do a conventional system to start with)
- pull the junk leaky ports and rebuild with one way mirrored poly sheet encompassing all five per side similar to newer designs... ventilation will be trough the twin hatches.
- rebuild the hot water system (he lied...the one in it is junk... wasn't even hooked up and was rotten... lying bastard... one of many lies concerning subsystems... I hate buying anything anymore!)

She's a good boat but he just let her fall apart in some ways on systems... she'll feel a lot better when I'm done. Interior and wood works is fine, just needs cleaning.


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## Lou452

Good for you that you found a boat and seen to have the step by step long term drive that will take see yourself through. 
Merry Christmas, Lou


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## Kyhillbilly

Hey Lou, just thought I would say hello and hope you have a Merry Christmas as well.


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## skygazer

I have three sitting on trailers under tarps in my yard. I agree, it's great that they aren't "eating", no pressure, just enjoyment.

Don't forget, that when you turn on the interior lights, the one way mirrors will work the other way, you will be looking in a mirror and anyone outside will be looking in at you. And they cut down on light coming in. I would rather have simple old curtains, adjustable for light or privacy.

Glad you have work!


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## Group9

I don't know if anyone mentioned them before, but you can still find a Hobie 33 trailerable boat if you look around enough. I used to want one and they are pretty fast, too.

Hobie 33 North American Class Association


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## skygazer

Group9 said:


> I don't know if anyone mentioned them before, but you can still find a Hobie 33 trailerable boat if you look around enough. I used to want one and they are pretty fast, too.
> 
> Hobie 33 North American Class Association


Wow!! Long and lean. Never heard of them, look great. I'd love to go to New Orleans and watch, but I have to be here for ice and snow.


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