# Good starting boat with some speed, but forgiving while learning as well?



## mobiuslogic (Jul 2, 2012)

Hi sailing folks. So I've been wanting to get a sailboat for sometime now. But, coming from an automotive background, I also want speed with a little bit of panache. I've seen some videos of Moths and 49ers on Youtube, and obviously they look like a lot of fun. I'm of course understanding that their beyond my ability now, but I don't want to go all the way back to something like a Laser, which really seems kind of docile to me. So I'm kind of looking for something in the middle I guess with two sails, that's quick, but would be forgiving while trying to learn on, but that I could also single hand. Thanks for suggestions!


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## padean (Jul 5, 2001)

More information:

How big?
Keel or centerboard?
Trailerable or beach boat?
Monohull or cat/trimaran?


The list of boats fitting your desires is endless. There are lots of small centerboard or keelboats that are relatively easy to learn and can be singlehanded without difficulty. In general, the faster the small boat, the less forgiving it is. 

For speed and ease of sail, a small trimaran such as the Weta may be a good option. It is fast, easy to single hand, relatively stable and forgiving, and can be beached or trailered easily. But there are many others that fit those specifications as well.


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## mobiuslogic (Jul 2, 2012)

Hi padean. Thanks for the response!

I'm definitely not taking a bunch of friends out, so I was kind of thinking 20 ft maximum length. Seems like a good round number, reasonable length for trailering, and can have a friend or two out on it as well. As for keel or centerboard, a centerboard would certainly be easier it seems as far as trailering.

I've definitely always been a fan of catamarans and trimarans though. The Weta definitely looks pretty sexy, but I was thinking a little cheaper since it'd be my first boat. Lol. It makes sense of course that the faster the boat the less forgiving, and for that I'm certainly not out to find a Top Fuel Dragster for my first boat. For examples those Moths, while awesome with the hydrofoils, would likely be discouraging trying to get up and foil-borne. So certainly not there yet! But I know just for myself if I was out there in a single sail Laser or something similar, I'd feel like I was in an old clunker of a boat. Lol.


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

So here's the deal. If you have an active laser fleet in your area, there isn't a better performance platform for learning, and if you think Lasers are 'docile', you are very very mistaken. Get back to us after doing some downwind legs in 20kts of breeze. Bottom line is you're a long way from a 49'er, and years away from a Moth. You're not at 505, nor will you be for awhile. On the other hand, you could 'sail' a Laser tomorrow, but you won't sail it well. I'm guessing you're confusing a laser you saw pulled up on the local beach with one that is properly prepped and rigged for more serious sailing. Locally, many of the best sailors around have spent a bunch of time in them including competing at high levels (Master's worlds, National Championships, etc..) Look at Olympic champions in Finns, etc... and you'll see someone who sailed a Laser at a world class level. 

Understand that the boats you're interested in aren't one's you casually go out for a spin with a couple of friends. You could look for a two man trapeze boat, either mono or multi-hull, Maybe an older 505 (new ones are expensive) or 470 if you and your sailing partner is a smaller person. A Fireball or older I-14, but again, you aren't ready for any of these until you spend some time in something like a Laser, and FJ, or the like, and this is assuming that you're both smart and athletic. It's a bit like downhill skiing. Sure, you can buy a pair of World Cup GS or DH skis, but unless you're a very good skier, they will kick your butt. Again, I can't recommend a Laser enough. 

Other ideas? A Lightning, a Snipe, maybe a Thistle. Maybe a Hobie 16.

If you want a keel boat that performs pretty well and you can sail and race with 2 or 3 friends, maybe a J22. If you can afford a Viper, then maybe that'd be the way to go. What's your budget and how much sailing have you done and do you plan to do?


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

Actually I was thinking a Viper, or if you want to stay in the 20' range the VX one. Both are great boats, and honestly the VX is pretty accessible for learning, but is also capable of 20+kn speeds when sailed to its limit.

It would help knowing where you are, since you may have a local class. But don't overlook the laser, they can be rocket ship fast when sailed well.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

Not sure where you live. If you want to race, find out what the popular classes are in your vicinity. You probably want to join a yacht / sailing club as most racing is under the auspices of a club. What are the club members racing? My club has a huge number of San Juan 21's. Most of the sailing school / junior members race Lasers.

I occasionally will crew for some friends. You might also start by crewing on a boat in which you are interested. If I want to go racing I just show up on Wednesday night with the suitable gear.


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

want to sail a moth or 49er someday then get a laser. best boat to learn in and to perfect big wind sailing. saying you don't want a laser means either you have not sailed yet or you are a great sailor and need more boat. I don't know any intermediate level sailor that does not like sailing a laser.


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## DrB (Mar 29, 2007)

overbored said:


> saying you don't want a laser means either you have not sailed yet or you are a great sailor and need more boat. I don't know any intermediate level sailor that does not like sailing a laser.


Laser's are great boats to both learn on and race on. If you know how to sail a laser well, you can sail any boat out there. The cool thing about a Laser is that is a boat that a kid (adult) can learn on and that a person that really knows how to sail (weight distribution, tiller feather, sail tweaking, etc.) can really finesse around a course. Also, as others have mentioned, it can pretty much go in any wind condition from 1 kt to 30 kts.

You can trailer it and pretty much launch it yourself. You can sail it alone or with another person.

DrB


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

Don't discount the Laser! There is a reason why there are thousands of them out there, and after all these years they are still being produced!

Another boat to consider if you want to be able to take someone out with you is a Tasar. (No relation to the Laser)

It is a little more boat than the Laser but still can be single handed. They are comfortable to sail and quick.


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## WDS123 (Apr 2, 2011)

Ultimate 20

There are 250 made, so relatively easy to find a good used boat at fair price. It is only 1250 lbs can be towed behind a family sedan. Park in driveway. 

fast and forgiving sportboat. Great class support


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## mobiuslogic (Jul 2, 2012)

Thanks for all the suggestions everyone.

So I guess I should have stated it at the start, but my budget is only about 1000-1500. I don't want to go spending a lot of money on a boat only to find out I don't enjoy it as much as I think I will. As for location, I'm in the SF Bay Area, so that would be my principal sailing location.

I know everyone keeps touting the Laser, but I know for myself I want two sails. As well, I do want to be able to go out with someone on the water, even if they don't help with the boat, and a Laser isn't going to be very comfortable for that. Lol.

But to answer you overbored, no, I haven't done any sailing on my own. Lol. However the Taser, the Viper, VX One, Hobie 16 look both manageable and capable as I get better.


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## paulk (Jun 2, 2000)

The new input on location and budget makes a big difference. There are lots of different dinghy fleets on SFO Bay. The "hot" boats mentioned so far, like the Viper or 49er will not be available in your price range unless you have to raise them from where they got run over by a ferry or a truck. Used 420's or Vanguards will possibly meet your pricing, but they will be quite used. You might also find a Thistle or 505 if a slightly more stable platform would suit your learning curve better. Look around, talk to the skppers and crews out there, and see which group fits best - boat/price/and people-wise with you.


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

Go talk to someone from the Richmond Yacht Club for both suggestions and what might be available locally. Laser is still your best bet for shortening the learning curve. 

Two sails, maybe you can find an old 470 or Fireball. You'll get your butt kicked for awhile, but so long as you have the right clothing for the water temps, you'll live.


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## mobiuslogic (Jul 2, 2012)

Well I know budget and experience both exclude me from getting something like a Viper or 49er right now, and I wasn't about to go wasting money like that anyways with no experience.

There is however a pretty decent looking Hobie 16 in my area though.

That was funny though puddinlegs about the right clothing though.  Certainly not afraid about getting wet.


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## paulk (Jun 2, 2000)

It's not about getting wet. In SFO it's about getting cold. Look up Larry Klein.


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## WDS123 (Apr 2, 2011)

SF Bay ? 

$1,500 ?

Find a Lido 14 on Craigslist. You will have a lot of fun, in the heavy air of SF Bay you'll plane easily enough to get your jollies, but you'll also stay a lot drier than with other small Boats. 

Larry Ellison learned to sail on Lido 14s in SF Bay.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

WDS123 said:


> Ultimate 20
> 
> There are 250 made, so relatively easy to find a good used boat at fair price. It is only 1250 lbs can be towed behind a family sedan. Park in driveway.
> 
> fast and forgiving sportboat. Great class support


Yes if you can find one of these they are a blast. They were built using the hull mold from the Hotfoot 20, which I used to own. They are very easy to trailer and once you learn how to sail them they are very fast!


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

...and you will never get one for $1500.oo unless your grandmother sells it to you.


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

WDS123 said:


> SF Bay ?
> 
> $1,500 ?
> 
> ...


I've sailed on Lido's in SF. Nothing under 40' is dry in SF.


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## mobiuslogic (Jul 2, 2012)

Eh, a little water won't hurt.  It'd be kind of silly to think you won't get wet at all, unless yeah, you were on a large boat. I'm definitely leaning towards that Hobie 16 catamaran though. Saw one posted with outrigger benches recently too.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

puddinlegs said:


> ...and you will never get one for $1500.oo unless your grandmother sells it to you.


Not an Ultimate 20, but possibly a Hotfoot 20. I sold mine 7 years ago for $4500 and it was pretty tricked out! It's a long shot, but you never know!


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