# Another new sail question/rant



## sonosail (Mar 17, 2008)

For those who have been told that a dacron sail will loose it's shape in a year, and a laminate sail needs to be replaced in 3, please don't abandon the sport yet! 

On my 35' sailboat, I'm still using a tri-radial paneled mainsail (laminate with twaron fibers) that has lasted for more that ten years. I know most performance conscious sailors would not expect to keep a sail this long. The actual shape, has only degraded slowly. It was over built so, probably, on the heavy side, but not lightly used. 
I expect that the next time I hoist it, every thread, fiber, and molecule of glue will let go all at once. But it held up amazingly well and I wish I had bought out the complete lot of sailcloth from which it was made. 

2 years ago I bought a genoa constructed using continuous (corner to corner kevlar fibers. ) I don't wish to bad mouth any sailmaker so I won't mention the brand, of which there are many pushing this type of sail now. 
The whole thing began to come apart (delaminate) after the first year. (I know a number of others who have had similar experiences with this type of sail from a number of different sailmakers). 
In my opinion, even for racers, a sail that lasts only a year, is just insanely wasteful, no matter what your budget is, or what the gain in performance might be. 

Here's my own, very superficial and uneducated take on the difference between the 2:
The lamination or bonding of film to fiber that takes place when building these 'one piece continuous fiber sails' is not as effective as the process that takes place under heat and pressure employed during the manufacture of sailcloth (rolled goods, used to make old fashioned 'paneled' sails).

Tell I'm wrong .... or that there have been significant improvements?
And if not, do they that still make laminated sailcloth like they did 10 years ago? And, if so, will someone build me another 'paneled/ radial sail'? (just rhetorical question)

I have no doubt that all the latest sails with continuous fibers, and many other newer innovations that I'm not aware of, provide a performance edge for those who simply must have the latest and the best at any cost. But because this is often extreme overkill, I will accept the inevitable, disadvantage when I try to compete against them on the race course. (at my level, very slight!)

Dear sailmaker;
My new sail was fast on the first day. How about a second day? Can we work on developing a little more durability for those of us not involved in the latest America's Cup?


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

Whether you are talking about racing yachts, cars, bicycles or even wheelchairs there will always be durability sacrifices made in the quest for the performance edge over the competition. I remember years ago I spent big bucks on high performance tires for my car. They were fantastic! For about 20,000 km, then they were done.
The lofted weight that is saved in having a seamless sail, and the shape they can achieve makes a significant difference at the higher levels of racing, and does mean the difference between winning and losing. Durability is an acceptable trade off to a serious racing program. Does the average club racer NEED that same edge? Most likely not, but they sure look cool, and they are the fastest sails, so if you have the budget, go for it! If you are more practical, and want sails that will last longer, then super light sails are not for you!

Sailboat racing is not cheap!


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## johnnyquest37 (Feb 16, 2012)

I thought Kevlar sails were only expected to be good for a year or two since the fibers are stiff and because they don't resist UV well. Just a few minutes of serious flogging can severly damage them.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I went through a similar thing. I had been a North Sail patron for a brief period of my life. During that period they convinced me to buy a couple of their 3DL's. I had bad experiences with early 3DL's and they swore the technology had really improved. After falling out with North, I went to Quantum and had one of their panel cut, high modulus sails made. 

Of the two North 3DL's, one of the North 3DL's never quite fit and also was so under reinforced that it never made sense for the wind range it was built for, and so fankly has only been flown maybe a half dozen times. The other North 3DL was supposed to be a powered up AP #2 but was cut so flat, that it too had a much narrower wind range than I had hoped for, but I have bene using it and so it has had approximately 200 hours of use, mostly in moderate winds well under 15 knots. 

At approximately the same time, I had Quantum build a broad-seamed, horizontal panel, laminated kevlar, powered up AP #3. That sail is not a 'film' sail like the 3DL. It was made from roll goods. As my sail of choice except in the lightest air, the Quantum Sail has closer to 300-350 hours on it, and certainly a lot more use in a lot higher wind, than the North 3DL's. 

This weekend, I noticed that the North 3DL #2 is breaking down, with the mylar layer failing, and the Kevlar exposed and delaminating. That is similar to what killed a 3DL North Mainsail that I have that also had low hours before it failed. When I look at the Quantum panel sail, it still looks very fresh, and certainly still has a nice shape. 

My conclusion is that whatever the theoretical value of these 'Molded film' sails, in reality, at least the North versions, just do not hold up very well in real use. Also the technology is such that they seem to have a very hard time getting the flying shape right as well. 

At this point, I have decided to move completely away from the 'Molded film' sails and concluded that a broad seamed, high modulus sail is the way to go. The Quantum broad seamed AP #3 has been brilliant with an excellent flying shape, doing almost as well as the much bigger #2 in low windspeeds, and holding its shape very well all the way into the low to mid 20 knot range. And its been much more rugged as well. Lastly, broad seamed sails are considerably less expensive than the film sails, if the high modulus cloth is available in the weight that you need. 

Then again, some of this may be the sailmaker (I have very little good to say about my experience at North), some the cloth and laminating techniques, but mostly I think that these molded film sails are being way over sold and are as you suggest very short lived. 

Jeff


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## Seaduction (Oct 24, 2011)

I have a 27 year old mainsail available for anyone interested. I replaced it after a squirrel chewed a few holes in a couple of panels near the leach. About 33'4" luff and 12'6" foot.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

johnnyquest37 said:


> I thought Kevlar sails were only expected to be good for a year or two since the fibers are stiff and because they don't resist UV well. Just a few minutes of serious flogging can severly damage them.


I don't know where you hear that. My boat came with a nearly 20 year old kevlar, heavy air #3 that I used for several years extensively during the winters. It was flogged for decades before I got it and flogged for 3 or so years afterward and was fine, good shape, holding together okay, before ultimately failing, being flogged in what I estimate was a 50 knot gust. May it rest in peace, or should I say pieces as its now recycled into dozens of dufflebags.

Jeff


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

Jeff H, I've seen similar results from North 3DL's. aka 3 Days Long (how long they last). This was one of the big factors why I have chosen Q in the past, and will continue to do so. 

A lot has to do with the sailmaker and owner/customer. If the customer wants a light sail, they sailmaker needs to explain that it will effect the longevity of the sail. I've also heard (read on sailing anarchy) that using the published numbers on Q's site and North's site, Q uses a lot more heat and pressure than North does. IMHO I believe North's sails are very fast, but they don't last very long. 

In buying my 4th sail from Q I specifically asked for a higher dpi so it would deal with being overloaded a bit. I do a lot of distance races and longevity is important to me, even if they aren't taken care of all that well and turn out a bit on the heavy side. 

Laminate sails require more care, which means no "late breaks" when tacking overlapping headsails, flake or roll them, put them away dry, and don't let them sit in the sun when not in use. NEVER furl them. I don't care if it's a "furling" J105 class jib. Furling is bad. The sport boats guys know this, accept it, and just replace the jib on a more frequent basis. 

To the OP, if you've taken care of the sail, then you need to talk to your sailmaker. They obviously under spec'd the sail or you used it in a wind range higher than what was intended to be. There are a lot of discussions about how a laminate sail stays together. The type of glue, too many fibers and the mylar doesn't stick to each other very long(like in the corners) , to little, and the sail is under built, mylar takes the load, and the same thing happens. Delamination. 

Since you mention "molded", "one piece", "continuous fibers", I must assume you're talking about North. They're not the only one who make string sails, so don't give up on em yet. Spend some more time talking to Ullman, Quantum, Evolution, etc. and see what they offer. Ask a lot of question from materials, manufacturing, R&D on your boat, everything. Sails aren't cheap, and after doing a bit of homework, you can usually get what you want.


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## sonosail (Mar 17, 2008)

Thanks Jeff-h and zz4gta. Some of your comments and experiences sound familiar.
'String' sails may be the future, but I'm going to live with horizontal seams and 'disconnected' fibers' for now. To me, requiring a mold to make sails is a complete anacronism.


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## sonosail (Mar 17, 2008)

ALTHOUGH, a friend of mine just took delivery of a new 'ICE' ?? sail (from Doyle NZ??).
It is a beauty! With these strange looking horizontal fibers. Who knows! We'll see if it lasts for more than a week.


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## johnnyquest37 (Feb 16, 2012)

Jeff_H said:


> I don't know where you hear that. My boat came with a nearly 20 year old kevlar, heavy air #3 that I used for several years extensively during the winters. It was flogged for decades before I got it and flogged for 3 or so years afterward and was fine, good shape, holding together okay, before ultimately failing, being flogged in what I estimate was a 50 knot gust. May it rest in peace, or should I say pieces as its now recycled into dozens of dufflebags.
> 
> Jeff


Having never owned a Kevlar sail, I can't provide any personal experience to the discussion. Just from scuttlebutt, my understanding has been that Kevlar sails are good for a year or two. According to Sailpower: Trim and Techniques for Cruisers by Peter Nielsen (p.27), "Sails made from (Kevlar) are very light but far from durable in a cruising context. Kevlar is brittle and does not stand up well to flogging and flexing" Further in the text he states "It's not unusual for a woven sail to last 10 years or more, while the lifespan of a laminate sail is closer to five years," but he's talking Mylar here as opposed to Kelvar.


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

zz4gta said:


> Laminate sails require more care, which means no "late breaks" when tacking overlapping headsails, flake or roll them, put them away dry, and don't let them sit in the sun when not in use. NEVER furl them. I don't care if it's a "furling" J105 class jib. Furling is bad. The sport boats guys know this, accept it, and just replace the jib on a more frequent basis.


why is furling them a bad thing? if you are referring to sailing with a partially furled sail i would agree. the fact that they are rolled a little tighter then when hand rolled may have an effect on some types of fibers like carbon but my laminate panel sails have held up much better since being furled. can't see how the abuse of sails being handled on the foredeck to be raised and lowered is better for them then keeping them rolled on a furler with a cover over them.


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## DrB (Mar 29, 2007)

*Partial thread Hijack*

I often get a kick out of folks that are basically club/weekend racers and spend oodles of $$ new sails every few years and think it makes a huge difference on how they place.

I raced over the winter on a J24 out of a sailing club/school. They had about 15 boats and each week you got assigned a different boat. Some boats had better sails than others. In the end, it came down to the skipper and crew, not the sails. I was fortunate enough to be with a world champion skipper who had more knowledege about the boat and sailing in his thumb than I did in my entire body. Consequently, we won or came in second out of 15 boats almost 45% of the time and I learned more about racing tactics from talking with him and watching what we did over the 4 months of w/e sailing, then I had over the 20 years previous sailing years.

Same with beer can/club racing. If folks want to do well in these races, find competent crew, practice, and become a better helmsman. If you don't want to do that, getting a new Hi Zoot sail isn't going to give you any advantage over the guy/gal in the old boat with the "blown" sails that has competent crew and knows how to eek every microknot of speed from his vessel and has better tactical skills.

DrB


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

johnnyquest37 said:


> "Sails made from (Kevlar) are very light but far from durable in a cruising context.


Cruising and Kevlar shouldn't even be in the same sentence. That's like taking the Maserati to the corner store to get a gallon of milk. In a "cruising context" Kevlar is a complete waste of money.



> Kevlar is brittle and does not stand up well to flogging and flexing"


Yup. When you compare it to polyester, it sucks. Carbon is worse.



> Further in the text he states "It's not unusual for a woven sail to last 10 years or more, while the lifespan of a laminate sail is closer to five years," but he's talking Mylar here as opposed to Kelvar.


Couple things here. 
1. Woven sails will retain a triangle shape longer than string sails. However, their aerodynamic shape is long gone before the triangle explodes. This was discussed in the other thread. For racing, I want a sail that's going to hold it's shape in a wider wind range for a full 5 years of hard service. Lightweight is a nice plus. Dacron will stretch a lot over a 155% between 6-8 kts and 15 kts true. This is not good on the course. Not only that, but it will gradually stretch out over the next 5 years losing performance every year. Until at the end of 5 years, the laminate is pulling and pointing much better than the dacron. This is huge on the racecourse. Not so much for the cruiser who just wants to close reach around the harbor.

2. Mylar is a scrim that is applied to each side of the sail. The aramid strings/threads are sandwiched between these two layers. Mylar can't carry the load of any decent size sail. Small boats and wind surfers have plain mylar sails w/ no strings, their loads are much much lower.

Racing Laminates - Sailcloth Technology by DIMENSION-POLYANT - Sailcloth and laminates for high performance sailing and polyestersailcloth for surf
Scroll down to Flex line and hover over the cross hairs. A graphic pops up that shows the film (mylar) on either side with the string fibers inside the sandwich. Glue, heat, and preassure keep it all together.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

ZZgta is one of those guys who can sail a blown-out boat and win. Because he is now a "Skilled Indian", now he invests in "Good Arrows".

Like you say, buying Good Arrows for crappy Indians is what a lot of people do.


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

lol, never heard it put that way, but I like it! 

Another question I ask owners who have pin stop jib car adjustments. 
"if you haven't drilled 2 additional holes between each factory hole on your jib tracks, you don't need laminate sails". 

Unfortunately the majority I talk to give me the speach "my sails are 15 years old and are still in great shape!" And they couldn't be more wrong, but have convinced themselves that their boat just "likes more wind" to be competitive. Or they have "too much stuff" onboard, it couldn't possibly be that they aren't good enough, or their sails are junk. 

Bubble, check you emailz.


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## sonosail (Mar 17, 2008)

I think it's easy to make sweeping statements, about the properties of a fiber or method of construction. (I'm guilty of doing the same thing). 
My real question is, do we (the performance/racing sailer) need do give up durability to get continuous fibers. And what real advantage is there over horizontal, glued/sewn seams (non-continuous fibers). Is there really that much stretch or 'energy loss'. I certainly don't know the answer. 
At the same time, I have to step back and face the fact that those of us who engage in such hair/fiber splitting belong in the loony bin. But it's all in good fun.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

*Re: Partial thread Hijack*



DrB said:


> I often get a kick out of folks that are basically club/weekend racers and spend oodles of $$ new sails every few years and think it makes a huge difference on how they place.
> 
> I raced over the winter on a J24 out of a sailing club/school. They had about 15 boats and each week you got assigned a different boat. Some boats had better sails than others. In the end, it came down to the skipper and crew, not the sails. I was fortunate enough to be with a world champion skipper who had more knowledege about the boat and sailing in his thumb than I did in my entire body. Consequently, we won or came in second out of 15 boats almost 45% of the time and I learned more about racing tactics from talking with him and watching what we did over the 4 months of w/e sailing, then I had over the 20 years previous sailing years.
> 
> ...


While what you say might be true in some fleets where there is wide ranging skill levels, I have found that even at the upper range of club racing sail quality is a factor. In any established one design fleet there are different tiers. There is always the same group of boats at the front of the pack. Those boats are usually all pretty equal when it comes to skill level, but you will notice that the other thing they have in common is that they all have good sails. Assuming boat handling and tactics are comparable there is no way a boat with worn out sails is going to win consistently.


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

sonosail said:


> My real question is, do we (the performance/racing sailer) need do give up durability to get continuous fibers.


A this point, we don't have a choice.



> And what real advantage is there over horizontal, glued/sewn seams (non-continuous fibers). Is there really that much stretch or 'energy loss'.


There is an advantage. On my 25 footer, probably not noticable. On an R/P 66 definitely. Bigger boats require things that stretch less. 1% on a laser is a lot less than 1% on a 2:1 halyard on a 60 footer. Most small boats don't need continuous fiber load path sails. But an R/P 66 has more than a few Pro's on board, and they're used to working with good stuff.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

It is not just about stretch. Even a traditional paneled kevlar sail has very low stretch characteristics. The big advantage of the 3DL type sails is the weight savings. Not only do they not have the weight of all the thread and seam allowances, they can also control exactly how many strands of kevlar they use, so they only use as much as needed. Even a few pound of weight savings is significant when you multiply those few pounds buy a 50' mast. One piece laminate sails are MUCH lighter than their paneled equivalents.


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## Loki9 (Jun 15, 2011)

The glue they use in laminate sails has improved a lot. Sails don't "de-laminate" the way they used to, and thus last much longer. I race heavily and buy laminate sails. I'm just thinking of replacing the #1 genoa that was new in 2009. It's held it's shape just fine, and there is little to no delamination, however it is pretty beat up along the foot and leach where it passes over the life-lines and shrouds. My laminate mailsail is 5 years old and looks and sails like new. My #3 blade is older than any other (2006?) and is still in good shape, though it doesn't get used as much. These sails are in every way better than Dacron, except price.


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

> These sails are in every way better than Dacron, except price


Agreed in the picture below:
2002 Laminate 155% headsail (Doyle Boston), used minimum 5 seasons (stored indoors for many others)
2016 Laminate main (EP Sails), used 1 season... 









Oh and I believe a 1999 Shore 100% laminate sail (can't tell, the class measurer writing is hard to read, but it says 199x)... I figure its got at least 10 seasons on it.


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