# 2010 Southern Straits Carnage



## blt2ski

Looks like some major carnage going on in the SSR. 60-70% of the boats have With Drawn, 15 of about 60 registered are still out there in storm force winds........

I'll stick to being in my house thank you very much.


----------



## blt2ski

just read on sailing anarchy, that the coast guard was on 16 announcing that the RC has abandoned the race, all boats to seek a safe harbor, and radio in when docked.

Gust to 50 here on the port of edmonds weather site. not sure what the WSFerries are reporting will look at that site in a moment.


----------



## AdamLein

Sand heads and Halibut Bank are both reporting 50 kt gusts. At least they have something resembling daylight out there.

Will they restart the race tomorrow?


----------



## blt2ski

not sure if they will do a restart or not. Some on SA would like to see a 24 hr delay in the future for days like today for this and swiftsure. Can not say I blame them, usually this kind of stuff blows thru in 12-24 hrs, so a 24 hr delay is not always that big a deal, other than jobs, vacation time etc for racers.

Marty


----------



## blt2ski

Off the race web site position page.

Last Known Yacht Position​ *Pan Pan 16:03 WVYC Race Committee has abandonded the Southern Straits Race. All vessels still racing should head for safe harbour and check in with WVYC vy Phone or radio to confirm receiving the cancellation call. *​


----------



## AdamLein

blt2ski said:


> not sure if they will do a restart or not. Some on SA would like to see a 24 hr delay in the future for days like today for this and swiftsure. Can not say I blame them, usually this kind of stuff blows thru in 12-24 hrs, so a 24 hr delay is not always that big a deal, other than jobs, vacation time etc for racers.


True but systems like this tend to come in pairs as well, especially this time of year. NOAA's 24 hour forecast shows another from the Aleutians coming to about 45N by 130W, though not as deep as today's.


----------



## Faster

I think this could be the first time they've actually called the Straits race.. Pretty crazy conditions out there.. Our son's crew on a Melges 32 bailed before the start, barely able to make headway trying to get upwind to the start area.

Ferry cancellations everywhere... I was bummed that we decided not to go to the Islands but now, it looks like the right move. Hope Dilly Bar reconsidered their plans too.


----------



## blt2ski

Wa St ferries have a few runs on delay to cancel for the PT/Keystone ferries. I was just down at Edmonds, appeared to me that the Edmonds ferry was not running, look at website, they have a 15 min delay. When I walk the dog it is for about 30-45 min or so, I did not see one ferry come or go, usually see at least one switch during that time. Marina is reporting some 50 knot gust a big ago.

Glad this did not hit last friday, the trip south thru the locks into lk washington would NOT have been fun, ie probably not done for the race over the weekend.

marty


----------



## blt2ski

Latest news, a 30' boat Inciser sunk, all 6 on board were rescued. 6 boats still out as of 5:30pm local time, but all 6 heading for safe harbors.

Faster, do you know anything about that boat, other than a 30' custom race boat?

Marty


----------



## Faster

Crap!... Incisor is a custom Currie design, same fellow that designed/built the Mount Gay 30 "Bullitt" (now in WA, I believe) - Incisor was actually only 26 or 27 feet plus a small prod. I know these guys, or at least some of them.

Will have to try to find out more... stand by.


----------



## blt2ski

THis is on the southern straights website........This does not always mean much!

*April 2, 2010 5:30 pm *

At 3:45 pm April 2, 2010 the Coast Guard advised WVYC that the sailing yacht Incisor had been lost and that all 6 crew are accounted for and are being assisted by the Coast Guard. 

Incisor is a 30 foot Custom Racing Yacht Skippered by Clint Curry of North Vancouver . The boat sails from the West Vancouver Yacht Club. 

The cause of the loss of the boat is unknown at this time. 

The race has been abandoned at 3:45 pm April 2, 2010 due to persistent heavy weather. As of 5:30 pm six remaining racing boats are heading for safe harbour.


----------



## jrd22

I just read that a tug anchored in Anacortes reported 65-70 knot winds, they had put out an additional two shots of chain (30 fathoms). The CG is announcing on VHF that the winds exceed their operational limits, meaning if you are out there and need help you're on your own. All of San Juan County was without power for a couple hours earlier, back on now. Wild day out there, hope all the racers make it back in safely. Glad your son got in OK Ron.


----------



## jackdale

Photos

Updated: Wind pummels Vancouver Island, sinking boats, delaying ferries, leaving thousands without power


----------



## Faster

Forecasts moved from gale to storm warning at 4 pm... The storm had been forecast to blow through in the early hours but is still here now. Some more details:

Schock 35 "Fancy Free" dismasted, as was a Dufour 38 "Radiance"

Incisor, the Custom Currie design was knocked flat or possibly partially rolled and flooded through the hatch, all 6 crew wre recovered by another racer, the J30 Radiant Heat, and transferred to the CG hovercraft and taken to Nanaimo Hospital, hypothermic but expected to be OK. Must have been some kind of seamanship on the part of the J30 crew... +10 to them. Incisor may still be awash somewhere out there.

This IS the first time in its history that the RC has called/abandoned the race. A weekend to remember for sure.

We have some friends that we believe did leave on a cruise - we've yet to hear if they are snugly hiding away somewhere or not. There could be more news to come.

Ferries were cancelled, another took a bad wave that smashed a window to the passenger compartment.


----------



## smackdaddy

Wow - crazy story here guys. Keep us posted as you find out more.


----------



## smackdaddy

Jeez - what blew through there????

Updated: Wind pummels Vancouver Island, sinking boats, delaying ferries, leaving thousands without power

Pacific Northwest Boating News: Injuries, damage and sinking boats as storm slams into Northwest racing fleet | Three Sheets Northwest


----------



## bljones

Does anybody know if NautiGirlB got a ride with another boat in this race?


----------



## Faster

bljones said:


> Does anybody know if NautiGirlB got a ride with another boat in this race?


I don't believe she did...


----------



## blt2ski

This is going to be a harry one for many reasons. The local CG commander has said in news reports, some despite the forecast went sailing any how. I'm sure the permit assuming BC, Canada has a similar program to down here in Wa, the permit may be yanked, or the RR's will be changed, or a "any wind over ____" will shut down the race.

I guess a couple of crew on incisor spent an hour in the water before being rescued. Major hypothermia issue in our 40F water. About 4-5C for those with the other temp guage.

A bit too much Carnage IMHO. But then what do I know sometimes.LOL

Marty


----------



## NautiGirlB

I did not find another ride for which I am grateful. I guess things happen for a reason. I don't think I will ever step foot on a sailboat again.

I am just so grateful that everyone is ok.


----------



## Stillraining

I hope your just kidding about the first part Nauti..


----------



## JStorm

In my opinion, with limited knowledge, the race should have been abandoned earlier. No point in placing blame now. Although sailboat racing requires dealing w/ the wx you're given, these boats are not setup for storm/hurricane force wind/seas. They aren't equiped for conditions the S Strts can dish out in a full storm. Although each skipper has a responsibility for the safety of their crew/vessel, it seems they depend on the RC, CG, etc when to quit.
I hope NW sailors can make sure this never happens again, w/out government mandates. Thankfully nobody died!?


----------



## Faster

JStorm said:


> In my opinion, with limited knowledge, the race should have been abandoned earlier. No point in placing blame now. Although sailboat racing requires dealing w/ the wx you're given, these boats are not setup for storm/hurricane force wind/seas. They aren't equiped for conditions the S Strts can dish out in a full storm. Although each skipper has a responsibility for the safety of their crew/vessel, it seems they depend on the RC, CG, etc when to quit.
> I hope NW sailors can make sure this never happens again, w/out government mandates. Thankfully nobody died!?


It is extremely rare for such races(eg Straits, Swiftsure) to be abandoned by the RCs... they are considered Ocean or near-Ocean races with the appropriate Category ratings and so it's supposed to be a given that the boats are appropriate for the possible conditions.. beyond that it is the skipper's/crews' call whether to start or continue.

That the race was in fact abandoned a few hours into it is a historical first for this event. By that time at least 75% of the fleet had already withdrawn. Only a handful of boats actually reached any of the first marks (all downwind) before the call was made. I'm not sure if the incident with Incisor had occurred by that time or not. A BC Ferry was also involved in the rescue, likely at least providing a bit of lee for the pickup. [EDIT: It appears that the abandonment and loss of Incisor occurred around the same time... at least the announcements were. So likely that incident prompted the RC to call things off.]

At least one crewmember was reportedly very hypothermic but expected to be OK.


----------



## smackdaddy

How did Incisor sink?


----------



## Faster

smackdaddy said:


> How did Incisor sink?


Reportedly (unconfirmed) a severe knock-down/partial roll and she downflooded through a hatch... it's also possible she's still awash out there nose-up (although it blew hard for another 10-12 hours so who knows? She may also be aground somewhere by now.


----------



## AdamLein

JStorm said:


> In my opinion, with limited knowledge, the race should have been abandoned earlier.


In addition to Faster's comments, strong winds are quite common this time of year around here; this particular storm was an outlier. I'm sure they were considering their options and watching the weather the whole time, and made their decision once they knew that this weekend would be different.

Also it looks like skippers were withdrawing long before the race was canceled, so kudos to them for making the right call without any help from the various authorities.


----------



## blt2ski

Naughti,

Just read your other thread, I'll say the same as others, get back on the horse, ie BOAT! All of us have done something, somewhere, that in hindsight was dumb, something happened, something broke, we learned, went on about life and are doing fine. Many of us are in the what I call "really old" decade of life, ie 40's because many of us have teenagers in the house, ie me! Scott ie stilly.......... just starting, restarting in my case.

BUT, I think you had a blessing in disguise not being on that boat yesterday. There are also MANY more than 60 boats that race up there. It might be 60 major player, always out there etc. BUT, there are many more than 60 boats. If you read the local for me any how, 48degreesnorth, there appear to be about 60'ish majors here in the seattle area too, but reality, I would hazzard there are a few hundred, if not 1000+ boats that race here in the Washington part of the Salish Sea.

Anyway, back on topic, faster, let us know how the crew on Inciser is doing since you made a comment about knowing some of them. WInds around here can get interesting with the mtns, valleys, and other items that can influence how the wind blows. I would not want to say it can be as bad as a hurricane or equal from back east, but it can be bad around here none the less.

marty


----------



## smackdaddy

Great write up by Mistaken over at SA. It blows my mind that these guys can actually sail in these conditions (50-60). Incredible.

Seems like everyone made it okay. And now will come the debate on whether the RC should have called the race. I bet the CG is going to have a nice heart-to-heart with some people.


----------



## Faster

Also from SA



> By Nigel Barron on April 2nd, 2010
> Injuries, damage and sinking boats as storm slams into Northwest racing fleet
> Nigel Barron | Three Sheets Northwest
> A crowd gathers to watch the 42nd Annual Southern Straits Race out of West Vancouver, B.C., today.
> 
> A popular Northwest sailboat race turned into chaos this afternoon as a major windstorm tore into a fleet of boats off West Vancouver, B.C., injuring crews, sinking at least one vessel and damaging many more.
> 
> Heavy seas and winds gusting above 63 miles per hour (55 knots) quickly took their toll and the race was called off this afternoon. Boats were instructed to seek shelter after reports began flooding in about boats in distress. About a dozen Seattle area boats were scheduled to take part in today's Southern Straits Race, a long-distance test of endurance that is notorious for bad weather.
> 
> "There's a lot of people who have foolishly gone out sailing today," said Canadian Coast Guard Capt. Greg Clarke.
> 
> A 30-foot custom racing boat, Incisor, skippered by North Vancouver sailor Clint Curry, sunk in the afternoon. All six crew members were rescued by the Coast Guard. By around 2:30 p.m., the distress calls and maydays, many from the racing fleet, filled the emergency radio frequencies.
> 
> At least two boats reported losing their masts and one crew said their boat was taking on water and sinking. There were reports of close to a dozen boaters in the water at one point, all of whom were rescued by the Coast Guard and other boats.
> 
> More than 60 boats were registered for the race, organized by the West Vancouver Yacht Club. But many sailors decided to sit it out after weather forecasts called for heavy winds and seas on the Strait of Georgia, a relatively large and open body of water between the B.C. mainland and Vancouver Island.
> 
> Seattle-area racer Paul LaMarche, the owner of the Santa Cruz 70 Neptune's Car, opted to stay at the dock today.
> 
> "There just wasn't anything in the plus column and everything in the negative column when we started to look at it. I have nothing to prove.
> 
> Coast Guard officials questioned why organizers didn't cancel the race, a qualifier for the Vic-Maui race in July, before it started.
> 
> "I'm concerned that the race went on anyway," Clarke said. "I don't think anyone should have gone out. I think it was a foolish decision. It puts the rescuers at peril too. It's not fun for anyone. To put a race on a day like this was, I think, very irresponsible."
> 
> A spokesperson for the Yacht Club said they were still sorting through details and would release information later in the evening.
> 
> A 40-foot sailboat, Mad Max,was forced back to port after a crew member suffered a dislocated shoulder. Crew member Jay Markow said the race got off to an epic start.
> 
> "We had a great start, surfing for almost half an hour. We wiped out (and injured a crew member). We were knocked down for two to three minutes. We doused the kite (spinnaker), and took off surfing again until we could find a lull (in the wind) and try to turn around."
> 
> Throughout the afternoon, battered boats and crews limped back to port. In several cases, ambulances took injured crew members to the hospital.
> 
> The windstorm created a hectic day for the Canadian Coast Guard's Joint Rescue Coordination Center in Victoria. The center began dispatching rescue teams early in the morning, responding to reports of boats sinking, going adrift and smashing up against rocks on Vancouver Island.
> 
> Coast Guard officers rescued a liveaboard in Mill Bay, about 18 miles north of Victoria, who was afraid his boat would break free of its mooring. A 25-foot powerboat with no one aboard reportedly sank near Bamfield Park, on the south shore of Barkley Sound, and a 20-foot boat sank in Tsehum Harbour in North Saanich. Unattended boats broke free of their anchors and smashed onto rocks in several areas, including Ganges Harbour on Saltspring Island.
> 
> The storm had less of an impact in the Seattle area. Coast Guard Petty Officer Eric Chandler said at 6 p.m. that there had not been any calls of boaters in distress. "It's pretty calm," he said. "So far we've been lucky."


----------



## blt2ski

Something to also think about, for us generally speaking, wed night/weekend beer can warriors, many of these boats were/HAVING to use this as a requirement to do the "Vic-Maui" race in July, ie a full bore ocean race. This race as I recall also require some of the open water safety requirements too. 

So to a degree, the ones that dropped out, started in some cases knowing they would drop out after the downwind sleigh ride. Others like Paul LaMarch owner of the SC70 Neptunes Carr, had nothing to prove or gain by going out, so he staying in port. 

In the end, be it you agree with the RC or not to hold the race, These folks that race knew it would be windy. And many times in a close environment like the St of Georgia, it can be worst there than in the open ocean due to smaller choppier waves with currents etc. Reality is, this was probably worst weather than most would get in the Vic-Maui race. 

Faster, is there some specs/pics on Insicer some where?

Marty


----------



## smackdaddy

In spite of the carnage, I still fall on the side that it's up to the skipper as to whether to start a race or not. That's the rule.

That said, I suppose the CG can shut down an RC based on not making a call when the weather was so obvious.

It's going to be interesting.


----------



## wind_magic

Wow! Sounds like total chaos broke out.

Wouldn't it have been fun if some battered old tub had come in under storm sails to win it.


----------



## Faster

blt2ski said:


> Faster, is there some specs/pics on Insicer some where?
> 
> Marty


Not having any luck on-line.... Incisor was a down-scaled version of Clint's Bullitt, which was built for the MG30 class. Around 27 feet, a B&R style rig, sportboat carrying both masthead and frac kites, I believe.

Specific info is spotty, on the boat and on the incident at this point. I seem to remember some info in Pacific Yachting or 48 North, but can't track it down now.


----------



## NautiGirlB

As it was explained to me when I questioned if there was any time that a race would be cancelled. No, we sail to what's really out there, not to the weather forecast. I can appreciate that if the forecast is 30-40 but knowing that there was potential for much, much higher winds seems foolish to me. When you sail, especially for a beginner, you are putting your life in the skippers hands. I was also told that balking at the last minute would be letting your team down. It is all very frightening to me.

I was safe and warm in my house, but terrified for those out there. I know that others were feeling the same. I am so thankful that everyone survived.


----------



## Stillraining

OK...I cant hold it back any longer...I secretly wished I was out there.

There I said it...

I would have loved to been the old 4 knot SB as someone mentioned to win it...call that chest pounding or stupidity I do not care.

But Now befor you all flame me...please. here me out

I don't have the experience to really put my money where my mouth is...But I do have a boat Id be willing to put out there if some one was willing to come with me.... There were very experienced skippers and crew out there and some have already voiced an opinion that the RC should have called the race..and a very experienced skipper said he had nothing to prove...of course not, he already has the T Shirt.

But for me its like the old "cant get hired for the job because you have no experience" scenario...there is only one way to get it..go out and do the job.

There is also a story that anyone that tried to fly a kite was knocked down....come on! a kite in those conditions?

This is a race...men race to win...sometimes that gets in the way of better judgment as far as how to win one in certain conditions. 

Now if we go around putting limits on tolerable wind speeds and such no one will ever know how to handle a boat in those conditions...that's why I wish I would have been out there...not to win just to experience it, battle it, conquer it, or not......Heart pounding exhilaration..some terror as well. Maybe having to give in and take shelter as many did but knowing you gave it your best shot regardless...Yes I know the risk...but baring a sinking any good sound boat will stand up to what was leashed out yesterday under bare poles or proper storm sails.

And here in lies the real problem as I see it...How many of those racers out there for this notoriously harsh race were not caring those storm sails in there inventory?....OR...didnt have them hanked on ready to hoist? ..OR even start the race under them ?

Yes there is risk to life and limb in what we do in this sport of sailing rather its racing or a solo cicumnavigation...and to a good portion of a mans wealth as well if you loose your boat, but it should be a crews choice as weather to leave the dock or not...and a skippers choice to override a crews eagerness in that decision or not..not a race committee or the CG...IF they tell you they will not come get you you had better figure that into your decision...News Flash...They aren't coming to get you half way to Hawaii either.

Im glad everyone is safe..I would be heart sick if someone would have died ...Im sorry the one fellow lost his boat....But Im just as glad he got that choice of opertunity and all those who wanted to participate got there wish...it will forever mark their memories as one of their most cherished and talked about .

I wish I had it as well.


----------



## SpritRacer

I can understand those sentiments. I have been in 20' to 30' foot seas, 8-seconds apart, clipped in and praying to get through it before making our way to port after about 24-hours out in the midst of the ocean. The next day, I couldn't wait to get a look at the seas and see if we were good to go for the next round, feeling more confident than before. 

However, at the same time, I also learned a new and deep respect for the ocean. Even in a good-sized s/v, we are nothing but little specks on the surface. I am grateful that we had all the safety gear, experience, and advanced knowledge to allow us to go the next round. The ocean has a way of reminding us that as much as we think we know, it knows more (and doesn't care too much of what we know). 

A benefit to this race is that there are a number of places to get to via motor or sail to seek shelter if it is too much, so not a bad way to get experience (provided that your skipper is sane, and not racing at "all costs" despite clear indications that the crew and/or boat are overwhelmed.) However, if you are pretty much a novice, you are asking to increase the likelihood of a small mistake resulting in potentially big consequences--if not for you, then a crew mate. Those types of breezes are not too accommodating of errors. 

So put me in the group of the skipper and crew being the ones to decide to take part in (or not) the race, as they know the quality of the crew, boat, sails, etc. As a crew member, it is your job to know the depth of your skills, the preparedness of the boat you are on, and your confidence in the crew and skipper. If there is any question of these things, the bottom line is that it is your life and/or well-being, and your job to back out for the benefit of you and the crew if you need to (as a terrified crew member is a liability for everyone). 

IMHO--


----------



## smackdaddy

Hey sprit - welcome to SN dude.

And +1.


----------



## Stillraining

I'd like some more info on the boat that was involved in plucking the Incisors crew from the water....That was some serious seamanship.

Great opportunity Ron to invite your friends to join Sailnet...They would be a valued addition here.


----------



## Faster

Stillraining said:


> Great opportunity Ron to invite your friends to join Sailnet...They would be a valued addition here.


Alas, I suspect they are more SA types....


----------



## Architeuthis

IF it was an ocean classed race then I would say do not stop the race. Part of racing is knowning how to ride it out, or which sails to use for what winds and what positon hatches and covers should be in for what sea states or in this case when to run for cover. 

It should be a race to the finish or end of time. 

That might get people killed, most racing does, but life is meant to be lived. Of course there should be racing classes where there are predetermined conditions underwhich the race is cancelled and where risking life and injury is not acceptable, even grounds for penalty (I think that'd be the class for me). 

I know of a motorcross race that was washed out due to t-storm but the race was run anyway. All the top racers tried to go fast and crashed, many tried to run the sippy holes and spent lots of time trying to restart or pick up their bike. The winner was a rider who had never even placed before and ran the whole race with his feet out paddling. He was by far the best rider that day and taught all of us a lesson. 

As to the cost of the rescues, well I guess insurance might be required if a certain race made a habit of needing the fleet rescued, which does not sound like the case here.


----------



## Faster

*Good news*

No details, unfortunately, but here's a shot of the "lost" yacht Incisor today. Presumably being recovered. Remarkable that she's "afloat" AND right side up!


----------



## Architeuthis

Excellent, I hope they were able to tow it to a beach or someplace where a recovery could be done. Pretty impressive that it is still floating.


----------



## CharlieCobra

Having been caught out in one exactly like this on Oh Joy's maiden voyage, the boat you're on makes a HUGE difference. Sure, we worked hard, got wet and tired but we didn't really have any issues with that stuff. Scott, your big old ketch would be just fine out there in that mess.


----------



## Stillraining

Faster said:


> No details, unfortunately, but here's a shot of the "lost" yacht Incisor today. Presumably being recovered. Remarkable that she's "afloat" AND right side up!


GOOD DEAL! Ron...I hope the owner gets her back racing soon.


----------



## Frozensurfer

I was on board Radiant Heat, the boat that called in the mayday and pulled two people from the water. It all happened really fast and their boat was well below the water with the crew on the side of the hull, we were standing by until the coast guard got there as the seas and wind were too much for us to recover them from the vessel. But two got washed off the boat from a large wave and we recovered them from the water. It was one of the hardest things I've had to do at sea, trying to pull them on board in those conditions. Unbelievable!!!


----------



## NautiGirlB

That is wonderful! Does that mean that she can be fixed?

I'm sorry but I don't know much about these type of things.


----------



## Freesail99

NautiGirlB said:


> That is wonderful! Does that mean that she can be fixed?
> 
> I'm sorry but I don't know much about these type of things.


That's great that the boat might be able to be saved and fixed but what is really super is that thanks to sv. Radiant Heat and her crew two men are alive that might not be. Way to go Frozensurfer, well done !!


----------



## NautiGirlB

Radiant Heat were true heroes yesterday.


----------



## smackdaddy

Frozensurfer said:


> I was on board Radiant Heat, the boat that called in the mayday and pulled two people from the water. It all happened really fast and their boat was well below the water with the crew on the side of the hull, we were standing by until the coast guard got there as the seas and wind were too much for us to recover them from the vessel. But two got washed off the boat from a large wave and we recovered them from the water. It was one of the hardest things I've had to do at sea, trying to pull them on board in those conditions. Unbelievable!!!


Nice job frozen. Seriously. It's great you guys were there and were able to help.

How did you guys lug them over the rail? We always talk about how hard that is even in calm water. Doing it in conditions like you had...like you said...unbelievable.


----------



## Stillraining

Frozensurfer said:


> I was on board Radiant Heat, the boat that called in the mayday and pulled two people from the water. It all happened really fast and their boat was well below the water with the crew on the side of the hull, we were standing by until the coast guard got there as the seas and wind were too much for us to recover them from the vessel. But two got washed off the boat from a large wave and we recovered them from the water. It was one of the hardest things I've had to do at sea, trying to pull them on board in those conditions. Unbelievable!!!


I tip my hat to you Sir, your crew and your Skipper ....well done!.

Welcome Aboard CF...hope you stick around to learn from your input here...I know I will if youll share it.


----------



## smackdaddy

Stillraining said:


> Welcome Aboard SN...


You said it bro, SN rocks.


----------



## Stillraining

HA!...Ya got me there didn't ya....Fix that for me would ya Smacky..


----------



## guest

*Is this the Incisor?*

I'm looking for confirmation that this is indeed the Incisor and not another vessel we need to be looking for. Can someone confirm please?
CCG


----------



## smackdaddy

Done on my end.


----------



## Frozensurfer

We had lost our ladder over board with some other life rings and man over board gear. But we had another one with the line attached to the boat. We winched them close as we could then took them on the leuward side of the boat and hung onto them for dear life. Shear man power pulled them aboard, not ideal but we did what we could. Waves were putting them underwater on the side of the boat and we hung on, pulling with everything we had, really scary moments. The guys had nothing left to help they were hypothermic and dead tired. It was a miracle we saw the boat and the captain floating away from the boat. I'll never forget his face looking up over the rail


----------



## Freesail99

Frozensurfer said:


> We had lost our ladder over board with some other life rings and man over board gear. But we had another one with the line attached to the boat. We winched them close as we could then took them on the leuward side of the boat and hung onto them for dear life. Shear man power pulled them aboard, not ideal but we did what we could. Waves were putting them underwater on the side of the boat and we hung on, pulling with everything we had, really scary moments. The guys had nothing left to help they were hypothermic and dead tired. It was a miracle we saw the boat and the captain floating away from the boat. I'll never forget his face looking up over the rail


Bravo and I am glad the mob drills paid off without the lost of life.


----------



## Stillraining

What vesel is that Guest?


----------



## smackdaddy

Holy crap Froze. You did good, dude. You guys made a couple of families very, very, very happy.


----------



## blt2ski

I'm hoping CCG does not stand for Canadian Coast Guard, and there is another boat missing/sunk beside Insicer. 

Marty


----------



## guest

*Response Request*

I work with the CCG and I'm looking for confirmation that this is the Incisor and not an unaccounted for sailing vessel. I pulled the 4 crew from the Incisor but I didn't think the mast looked like this. It was kinda hairy so I could have just failed to notice the two sets of spreader bars. I will sleep better if I know for sure this is the Incisor. Can someone call and confirm?


----------



## Frozensurfer

We really needed a halyard to winch them a board but everything was happening quickly and we couldn't let go. If we needed to get others aboard we would have got a better system going. But we were dealing with watching waves, our sails and a over heating motor, difficultly steering and most importantly the guys in the water and the other boat. I'll be practicing née systems on my boat now that I've experienced this. Truely incredable, the captain and crew really pulled together in the time need


----------



## blt2ski

Still,

DO you have fasters ph # to call and get a verification that is incisor for the CCG/guest?

I have to admit, a boat as I think Incisor is, may very well have double spreaders, Faster also knows the crew etc. So the pic could very well be incisor "ccg/guest."

Marty


----------



## Stillraining

Yes I do...Hold on


----------



## smackdaddy

guest, I've asked the guys over at SA, many of whom were in that race to confirm here and/or there. Here's a link to the thread on the race over there so we can cover all bases:

Southern Straits 2010 courses posted - Sailing Anarchy Forums - Page 8

Hopefully we can get you an answer soon.


----------



## Faster

guest said:


> I'm looking for confirmation that this is indeed the Incisor and not another vessel we need to be looking for. Can someone confirm please?
> CCG


OK... to me it looks like Incisor... the rig is as I remember and what we can see of the deck looks right too, incl the outboard arrangement. The photo was presented as that of Incisor.


----------



## guest

*Thanks*

Well that's one step closer to confirmation which is good. I appreciate the help everyone!
CCG


----------



## smackdaddy

Just got confirmation over at SA from someone in the know (The Dude) who had a relative on the boat.


----------



## PitGirl

I had heard that Incisor has potentially been located the vessel and was going to be recovered today. 

I've appreciated reading this thread (my intro to Sailnet) for news on the race, and found the points about a 24 hour foul-weather delay for the racing instructions quite interesting with the addition of a pre-determined shortened-course. Boats could be in late Saturday and still be good for delivery to home ports on Sunday. I also was intrigued by the "the race will not occur with forecast winds over XX knots" as a potential clause.


----------



## guest

Well I have to admit I have never sought out help from the Internet and I'm amazed at how fast you guys work! Thank you for your help and to the crew of the Radiant Heat, you saved 6 people's lives. If you had not declared the Mayday, no one would have known. Kudos to the crew on the recovery of two. Sorry we couldn't come get them from you but they were obviously in very capable hands. I would have thanked you on the radio if things weren't busy enough for us. Thanks again to all.
Good night!
C/O CCG Hovercraft Penac


----------



## blt2ski

Come back some some more guest, but as whom you are per say! Good to have both sides of this equation on the same side of things.

You might talk to the folks here in Seattle, they do a once a year program on the permits we need for races down here, along with "us/me" that are FC/in charge of our yacht clubs to meet the folks we need to deal with etc. May be good after this event to be a good thing for you too.

Marty


----------



## guest

We work differently in Canada, our CG does not get involved in permits for races. When there are that many maydays, the race gives the appearance that this was a bunch of weekend warriors in over their heads. But they deserve assistance just like the most talented sailor does as well. The CCG will not be the authority to shut down the race.


----------



## Faster

Thanks, Guest, for following up here.. and for the insights.


----------



## Stillraining

FWIW...Iv had the pleasure of sharing a couple beers with these two posters from SA.

I think they put it in perspective very well....as well as summing up mine.

Posted Today, 04:59 PM



WunHungLo said:


> You are a little mistaken. We had rounded Sisters and were on the beat back to Balenas with 3 reefs and storm jib, doing just fine when the coast guard called and said the race had been abandoned. The Coast Guard was kept informed of our status en route. We proceeded to straight to Nanaimo. After sailing towards Balenas, the wind died to 25knots on the nose and continued to drop to about 5knots within 5 miles of Nanaimo. We contemplated heading straight back to Vancouver, but heard various buoy reports of 35'sw to 50''s towards Vancouver and further south and went into Nanaimo for the night. We arrived at 23:00 slept and had a great beam reach in 15knots of wind back to Vancouver.
> 
> There have been a lot of comments slagging off the race committee or others saying that those that took part were fools. Bollocks ... putting it mildly.
> The decision is with the skipper to have the right boat, the right gear as required, and crew that have the right experience, and finally the wisdom to know when they can't honestly admit to being capable of doing the event and keep the crew safe.
> 
> It is clear that you could have gone around the entire long course with a storm jib and been fine. Some chose to fly a chute long after they should have dropped it and put up a smaller headsail and still be belting along at 15+ knots in control. A lot of local boats don't have proper reef points or enough heavy air working sails of the right size; some think you're a ***** for reefing. Well it's that mind set that's ****** up. Not the race committee.
> 
> It's the decision of the skipper. Period. What needs to happen is for some skippers to take the safety and survival aspects more seriously and put equal effort into getting around the course in one piece and not entirely grip it and rip it as you might for a day sail. It is after all "offshore racing".
> 
> Kinetic is equipped for going offshore. It's been to Sydney, done the Syd Hobart, and sailed back to Vancouver. You have to give credit to a skipper like David Sutcliffe for leaving no stone unturned when it comes to preparing the boat and crew for an event like this and making the right call when it comes to a priority on crew safety, preserving the boat, and sailing the course. In the end, we had a blast.
> 
> The boat has 3 reefs in the main, the usual number of headsails: 1,2,3 & 4, reacher, blast reacher, a new orange #5 and storm jib and trysail + various chutes. It's all been used and tested well before this event. There are safety inspections of personal gear, crew attend safety and survival at sea, life raft and and marine medical courses. It's sometimes regimented but if you want to get through a race like that last Southern Straits, you can't piss around with bar-room bravado.
> Bottom line is the crew gained another great experience of a tough race executed without a lot of drama. Our primary goal was to get around the course safely. Winning or losing was irrelevant. If we had a good result , great. It was a true test for a lot of the crew doing the next Vic-Maui.
> 
> We started a few minutes late, but decided to put one reef in and use the #3... got out into the harbour and hoisted a small chute. That was OK for a mile or so.... we saw the rougher water further out and decided to drop early and stick with the #3 and 1 reef. Once we were out into the 35 gusting 40, we put in another reef and changed down to the #5 and doing 12 to 15 knots.
> 
> We headed for Vancouver Island looking for the forecasted veer which didn't happen as much as forecast. Along the Island shore, it was 40 to 45 with occasional 50's. We tacked around instead of gybing and headed towards Lesquiti. Half way across, it was up to solid 45's with gusts to 50+ and confused crossing wave trains. The boat was doing steady 15's and some nice rides at 18knots. Looking ahead, there was nothing but spume and smoke on the water. We put in a 3rd reef and changed to a storm jib.
> 
> NOTE: offshore race boats should put lazy jacks on for safe and quick reefing. I've heard some dumb-ass comments from some sailors that lazy jacks are for shorthanded cruising boats. Fine... keep thinking that crap. Lazy jacks makes racing in those conditions faster and safer because putting in a reef is a no brainer and you don't have a lot of slab from the reef thrashing around while some crew tries to stand on the coachroof getting it organized, with a risk of falling to the lee rail.
> 
> Wind was now up to 50 gusting 58 and change... and doing about the same speed. We went down wind on angles that avoided being too deep and chicken gybed about 3 times on the approach to Sisters. Visibility was perhaps 2 miles or less and the wind was solidly 55 gusting higher.
> (we had experienced similar conditions crossing the Bass Strait on the delivery back from Hobart and had a good feeling about the boat being capable)
> We rounded Sisters after 15:00 and started the beat back to Balenas. It was a tough beat against short and very steep waves and being blinded by stinging spray, while taking some green ones.
> 
> In any event... I was a great experience and morale booster for the crew, particularly a couple that had not been out in that.
> 
> The coast guard can be rightfully pissed off, at boats out there that shouldn't have been. They also did an incredible job with the rescues in extremely difficult conditions.
> 
> **** sometimes happens to the best boats, but **** definitely happens to those that don't give a **** and give lip service to prep and safety.
> 
> Did anyone hear that laughable radio call from one boat asking RC if the coasties could take an injured crew off so they could keep racing. What kind of BS is that? They were within 1 mile of a harbour just after the start and there was only one call. Retire for the safety of the crew member, but no...they kept sailing past a couple of miles. Fark... [/Qoute]
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> FWIW ...Boomberries is a Woman.
> 
> 
> 
> Boomberries said:
> 
> 
> 
> 19-January 07 Location:West Coast, Canada Posted Today, 05:09 PM
> 
> Quite the day on the water yesterday ... Although we sustained some very minor damage and lost some stuff overboard, it was all in all a very good experience.
> 
> First off I will say I am very relieved that all the crew on Incisor are okay. That is a well sailed boat with a great crew of experienced sailors, and I'm very glad they are safe. I know there were other minor injuries on other boats, and I wish everyone a speedy recovery.
> 
> Seems there are heated opinions on both sides of the fence about whether the RC should have called the race. I feel strongly that no matter what, it is the Skipper who makes the decision to race and who ultimately bears responsibility for his crew and boat. I agree with Slacker, This was not a RC issue. Having said that, I think it was prudent that the RC abandoned the race when they did. The system did not let up as soon as expected and most boats had withdrawn. Besides, who wants to win by attrition?
> 
> If someone thinks their boat, their sail inventory, their crew is not up for a race like that, then they should stay home ... and they should be proud to make a prudent decision. We should support our sailing community to do what is best for themselves. What is good for one boat may not be the same for the next. We sail a huge variety of boats, and not all are equipped with similar sail inventories, skipper and crew experience etc ... Likely there were boats out there racing who were not well prepared and maybe this wil make them think twice next time, before we get regulated to the letter when we can and can not race.
> 
> Who is going to make the rules as to when a RC should call off a race? If the RC calls off a race because of winds exceeding 30 or 40 knots, and damage and injuries occur in winds less than that, whose fault is it then? People (skippers) need to take responsibility for themselves and make decisions based on how prepared they feel their boat and crew are. However, knowing that we were expecting a system, it would be nice to have the option to delay a race start by up to about 6 hours for example to allow a system to pass through.
> 
> The meteorologist at the Skipper meeting gave a very thorough and accurate forecast. I was impressed, as were many others. The only thing that changed was the system stalled for a few hours more than expected; and the winds were approx. maybe 5miles/hr more than predicted. It was not "heavy" wind at the start at all. The start area is protected and everyone should have known the pressure in the Strait would be higher than in the Bay. We ALL knew what was expected out there.
> 
> I have sailed and raced in more wind and bigger seas, and yesterday the experience was a good one to add to the resume. Getting experience in conditions like yesterdays is a huge learning tool and confidence builder and if I (or anyone) stayed home every time it was expected to blow 30 or 40 knots, one would miss out on a lot of excellent sailing and learning opportunities. I am very fortunate that the crew I sail with are very calm, experienced and are comfortable sailing in heavier wind.
> 
> I would not do a race in conditions like that unless I had full confidence in my skipper, my crew mates and the boat. Even then, there are no guarantees that all will be well. That is the sport of sailboat racing.
> 
> Having the correct sail inventory, a safe, reasonable attitude, a deeply experienced crew and a well maintained boat should get you through it for the most part.
> 
> And I agree with you wildangels ... some will be pissed off no matter what.
> 
> And people who sat at home & are passing judgment on what others decided to do, ought to hold their comments for a while
Click to expand...


----------



## JStorm

guest said:


> We work differently in Canada, our CG does not get involved in permits for races. When there are that many maydays, the race gives the appearance that this was a bunch of weekend warriors in over their heads. But they deserve assistance just like the most talented sailor does as well. The CCG will not be the authority to shut down the race.


Oops, my mistake. I thought I'd heard gov organizations might pull the plug on this race. Unfortunately, I can see something like that happening.
YES. The safety of the crew and vessel are the skippers respinsibilty. As a racing sailor (30yrs) and commercial Master (15yrs, 100+ Strts of Georgia transits), this topic is close to home. I don't intend to be negative, place blame, or accuse. I, as many of you, understand what the SoG can dish out. Conditions were (as forcasted?) worse than would ordinarily occure in the Vic-Maui, etc.
Although I am torn here, from the bit I've heard, it seems complex. 
A boat sank, a few were dismasted, some injuries, ect. Sounds like an exciting day racing. The problem is that there could have easily been deaths and it sounds like someone is thinking about pulling the plug on a "race permit. In my old age those are things I tend to try to avoid. Dead people and intervention. 
I will always advocate the responsibilities of a skipper and each sailor. It's become the norm for race organizers to dictate required safety equipment, water tight compartments, training minimums, etc in sailboat racing. Government/international regulations do the same with shipping and boats. Yes, some of the best prepared vessels with great crews have gone down. Usually in an attempt to sail or transport goods in what is known to be high risk situations. Skippers with experience have had mishaps and stuff happens. 
As w/ shipping, if boats sink and people die, the governments will get more involved
Of course, there were lots that surfed, reefed, quit early, were fully offshore prepared, and had a fine day of it. Must have been fun! 
Are changes needed??

Sure sounds like a fun ride. Sorry


----------



## blt2ski

jstorm,

I do not think anyone is asking the CG to pull the permit or stop the race from occurring. My intitial thought to guest was to start doing a meeting like here in the USA that is done about Feb/march, so the fleet captain/RC folks from the different clubs can meet the local CG folks, along with here in the states get a better understanding as to why "WE" have to have a permit or equal at times. Some races/on water activities do not need permits. 

A meeting or meetings during the year could in the end be a good thing so both sides can help the other figure out how to handle situations like last friday etc. ALso to show the CG what the requirements are for races like this, so hopefully there are not a bunch of yahoo's on a boat thinking they are having fun, while they may be, they may also be on the edge of killing themselves or equal...... It may also be a way to say the requirements need to be increased to some degree too for races like Southern Straights, the longer courses at swiftsure, Van'isle etc. 

Races like this need to be held, and we as competitors need to realize, some of these races, we need not go out and race, as we may not be prepared, or fit or what ever for the extreme conditions of the day. Or at least have a "what it" plan.

Marty


----------



## AdamLein

Some folks have mentioned that letting the decision rest with the skipper and not the RC will encourage prudence and seamanship. I think another advantage is that it will encourage more seaworthy designs and vessels that are better prepped for heavy weather.


----------



## Boomberries

Wow, I just found out about this site this morning. I look forward to reading through the forums. : )
ps ... hi there stillraining


----------



## Faster

Welcome BB - good going this weekend!

btw, guys and gals... over 4,000 views in 3 days, must be some kind of record. (Sad to say bad news 'sells'....)


----------



## sailjunkie

This thread has been fascinating for a variety of reasons:


This event happened in our backyard. I have sailed SoG in what I thought was rough weather, but those conditions pale in comparison to the conditions on Friday. I was at a local chandlery yesterday where the staff member suggested that it could have turned into our own version of Fastnet, but for the RC's decision to cancel the race.

The debate over the responsibilities of the skipper, the CG and the RC. My own view is that the skipper is ultimately responsible.

Kudos to the CG and everyone who assisted those in distress.

A special bouquet to the crew of Radiant Heat. As the CG suggested, 6 people are alive today because of your actions in very trying conditions.


----------



## AdamLein

sailjunkie's chandler said:


> ... it could have turned into our own version of Fastnet, but for the RC's decision to cancel the race.


Wholeheartedly agree with all your points, but have to disagree with your chandler: so many boats had already withdrawn by the time the race was called. It was the skippers' good judgment that prevented this from turning into our own Fastnet.


----------



## Faster

Yes, Adam's right there.. by the time the call was made to abandon the race there were really only a handful of boats actually still racing. I'm not saying that the decision to abandon wasn't the right one, but agreeing with Adam that most skippers (in actuality, probably ALL skippers & crews) had already made their own call as to whether to bail or carry on. For the most part it appears that most of those choosing to carry on were well equipped to do so.


----------



## smackdaddy

PitGirl said:


> I had heard that Incisor has potentially been located the vessel and was going to be recovered today.
> 
> I've appreciated reading this thread (my intro to Sailnet) for news on the race, and found the points about a 24 hour foul-weather delay for the racing instructions quite interesting with the addition of a pre-determined shortened-course. Boats could be in late Saturday and still be good for delivery to home ports on Sunday. I also was intrigued by the "the race will not occur with forecast winds over XX knots" as a potential clause.


Hey pit - welcome to SN. On the "XX knots" clause - to me that doesn't make sense in an offshore ocean race...which, from what I understand is the category for this race.

Heavy weather is part of the offshore race mix. I think you'd be opening a can of worms starting to try to define at what point things are "dangerous", and conversely at what point they are "safe".


----------



## livkai

I sailed Fridays SSR aboard the Contessa 32 with new sails and rig and a salty seasoned crew. We were still racing ,trying to beat upwind to the second mark when the race was canceled.We had been pooped once when a wave decided to fall on us, but in good spirits were carrying on with storm jib and dbl reefed main. At the skippers meeting it was 35 to 40, easing to 25 to 30 SW by 1600. Nothing we hadn't seen before on passages to California, but I don't think we would have gone if anyone had mentioned 60 knots at Halibut Bank. The walls of water beside the boat blocked my GPS signals at times.
L.H. CYA and IYT sailing instructor


----------



## smackdaddy

Hey liv - welcome to SN dude. Seriously impressive work to keep it together out there. Glad you guys made it through okay.

How did the Contessa handle? And, aside from the sail plan, what else would you advise on handling a boat/crew those conditions?

There are a lot of us here that are really into learning about heavy weather strategies - and you guys now have a great deal of knowledge to share.


----------



## AdamLein

Instead of an "XX knots" rule stating that the race must be canceled, how about an "I told you so" prize for first boat to withdraw and make it to safe harbor once the wind is above XX knots?


----------



## Stillraining

Boomberries said:


> Wow, I just found out about this site this morning. I look forward to reading through the forums. : )
> ps ... hi there stillraining


Hey Boombe!....Welcome Aboard!..

I hope you don't mind me Quoting you over here...Yours and Wung's post just reverberated with me and I could not resist..

I know you two know your stuff so felt it was relevant to this discussion over here.

Hope you pop in and share some of that with us now and then...I get a headache over there...

When we get splashed me and the misses will venture up track some you you down and say howdy...go sailing and share beers with you guys....You should meet Faster and his wife ( one of the Mods here)....Truly class acts!....................................whoops that's the second time Ive screwed up and said that......  .....OH dear!....Ten lashes for me and bread and water rations :laugher


----------



## livkai

Hi smackdaddy..
Much of Blue Blaze's and Contessa 32's ability in heavy weather can be atributed to the fact that they are stiff boats. My friend Willy Ker's C32 Assent was the only finisher in the small boat class in the 79 Fastnet. He singlehanded her while writing the pilot for the Faroes, Greenland, and Iceland, not to mention cruising aboard her to Antarctica, the Arctic and Russia. John Kretchmer sailed his around the horn to San Francisco challenging the clipper ship record. Closer to home, The BC based Contessa, Floating Point, with only Guy Druce aboard completed a non stop circumnavigation. If you don't mind being wet, they sail very well indeed, having affectionately been called" submarines with sails". They give up light air performance to their modern sisters, and are very cozy below for a crew of four. That being said, as we verified on Friday, they are very comfortable and balanced snaking their way to weather in large seas and wind.


----------



## Stillraining

Welcome Aboard Livkai!..


----------



## workingsailor

*Southern Straits*

I was one of the crew members on Blue Blaze, the contessa 32.
We had a great ride; the contessa was a lovely boat to sail in these conditions. I spent about an hour before we rounded Halibut bank trying to decide what to cook for dinner Saturday evening, my dilemma was beef or lamb roast. I posed the question to the crew, who unanimously noted that lamb would be a nice touch especially if it resembled the last one we had all eaten. 
After rounding Halibut bank we were hit with 55 knot gusts coupled with extremely large waves;it was only a matter of time before we got "pooped". The boat went over about 30 degrees, being on the low side I got the worst of the dunking, and when Blue blaze had finished laughing at us, we started to bail out quite a few gallons of water from the cockpit. The scuppers took it out faster than we could bail as the stern lifted again for another dance with the waves; the skippers comment that he normally preferred to bath alone was quite uncharitable I thought!
We decided to head for Nanoose bay to anchor until the wind abated a little, hammering into the walls of water seamed silly when we could take the time to get on some dry clothes and have a little rest. If we had been thrown a fish or two while constantly being doused with water, we might have taken a different view but the waves were spewing salt spray constantly and it was difficult to see anything, at least before pooping the old dodger, from that enormous rogue wave , we had some protection from the spray.
We agreed that we would weigh anchor slog to Nanaimo and then back to Vancouver as soon as we had a reprieve. We were quite surprised to hear the race had been cancelled; now we have to wait another year to show you all what the old tub is made of............
Once anchored I asked the boys to take off their wellies so I could start the dry out process. I poured about 1/2 a liter of salty water out of all of them.
We spent the night listing to the strangest sounds..subs we thought.
The next day was beautiful weather, and a lovely ride back to Vancouver.
I didn't do a roast in the end, we went to our favourite Thai restaurant instead.
Well done to all that sailed!


----------



## smackdaddy

Jeez - you guys are a breath of fresh air. I gotta say.

We're always stressin' out over the JSD/Seabrake/Scopolamine combo at 20 around here!

Beef or lamb in fitty knots? Love it.


----------



## PitGirl

smackdaddy said:


> Hey pit - welcome to SN. On the "XX knots" clause - to me that doesn't make sense in an offshore ocean race...which, from what I understand is the category for this race.
> 
> Heavy weather is part of the offshore race mix. I think you'd be opening a can of worms starting to try to define at what point things are "dangerous", and conversely at what point they are "safe".


Yes, it's hard to draw lines in these things. Folks on the thread seem to be mostly taking the position that it's the skipper's responsibility to decide whether or not to race - which I agree with. What responsibility (including legal) does the RC have in these situations? Any? I'm not that familiar with maritime law...


----------



## wunhunglo

*What a great experience that was on Friday*

Hi Stillraining... long time so see.
No problem with quoting my other post over here.
I think the Race Committee did all the right things including the weather briefing on Thursday from Environment Canada. Their meteorologist showed all the different weather prediction models in use (Canadian and US) and a few competitors had done our own homework with various Grib file downloads for days tracking the incoming weather right up to that morning. There was certainly no doubt that we were in for a blow.

The boat I crewed on (Kinetic - Beneteau First 47.7) and most of the rest of the crew, had been through this weather before, sailing to Australia, doing the Sydney Hobart Race and return, and a few Vic-Maui's. For some time before this event, the entire boat was checked, crew gear checked, MOB drills performed days before, etc etc.. If you had to be out in that, this was one of the boats you do it in safely, including boats like Bob P's Icon. One of the other Vic Maui entries, Turricum that has done several Vic-Maui's took the conditions well and rounded the Sisters just under an hour behind us.

There were a couple of roundup's but nothing unusual in terms of the kinds of broaches you typically experience racing. On the whole, given the prep work, not once did we feel that the boat and crew couldn't take the appropriate steps for storm force conditions.

There's some good video on the other site (that you don't often frequent - lol) of part of leg from Winchelsea Islets across towards the Sisters. It will give you a better sense of what the 45 to 50 knots looked like. As we were within 5 miles of Sisters, the steady wind became 55 with gusts higher. We put in the 3rd reef and changed from the #5 to a storm jib and were ready for the long slog back upwind.

I have posted on the other site some other thoughts about the PIYA safety Certificate where it relates to storm sails for this category of race, and suggestions for crew using drysuits to manage hypothermia.

I wear a Kokatat kayaking drysuit (modified for me by them for offshore sailing) to do races like this. I have spent hours in the water with it during some survival training and feel much more comfortable that if the worst were to happen, and I went over the side, I could last long enough to be picked up.

Part of that equation is all the other stuff worn with the PFD in a pouch, and in the drysuit. Here's a list:
- Laser Flare
- 3 red flares
- Small Emergency water pouch
- Energy bar
- Knife
- Leatherman Wave multi tool
- Pelican waterproof diving flashlight
- Waterproof iCom VHF
- Auto inflate PFD with thigh straps, twin tether, (1metre and 2 metres) with quick release and Gibb locking snap hooks.
- 2 lights on the PFD - a strobe and water activated Solas blinking light
- Floating 50ft fluorescent ribbon (deployed in water - better than dye because it can be seen streaming over the water and any rescue personnel know that you must be at one or the other - unlike dye where you may or may not be anywhere within it)
- neoprene hood (similar to a dive hood but thinner)
- there's a pocket for a personal Epirb (required on some offshore races)

oh..I forgot a ham sandwich... just kidding LOL

Under the drysuit, were 3 layers of breathing fabrics and the drysuit is very breathable gortex to keep the internal humidity down.

Here's a pic somewhere in the southern hemisphere.

anyhooo... nice to hear from you Stillraining. Keep in touch


----------



## JStorm

Thanks Livkai of the Contessa 32 for the fcasted wx that day. 60 kt winds when 40/30 is the fcast is harsh but not that unusual for the area. This area can see some nasty seas when those winds are combined w/current. 
Interesting to see all the comments.
The low incident rate says a lot about the boats, skippers, and crews. Good you were all so well prepared and prudent.
Safe sailing


----------



## JStorm

*Pitgirl and smack*



PitGirl said:


> Yes, it's hard to draw lines in these things. Folks on the thread seem to be mostly taking the position that it's the skipper's responsibility to decide whether or not to race - which I agree with. What responsibility (including legal) does the RC have in these situations? Any? I'm not that familiar with maritime law...


It is a well established maritime principal that the Master is responsible for:
1. The safety of crew
2. Safety of the vessel
3. Cargo
(the environment fits in toward the top of the list lately)

that being said, and still applicable, the subject is more complex. Also, their are differences in law/attitude depending on jurisdiction. Most thoughts on this are old. Not so long ago it was acceptable to lose a swab, no questions asked!
As always, all responibilty belongs to the Master. Not the owner, helmsperson, boat builder, raceorganizer, or government. This idea is also more complicated. 
In general, sailboat races have safety rules which are a combination of law, basic rules of national/international sailing organizations, and "sailing instructions.". There are different levels of requirements and deciding which level required is up to the race organizer.
It's kind of the norm to race with the requirements and no more. Gotta keep it lite and fast.

Being reminded (or learning) how harsh the wx/seas can get hereis good.
Safe sailing


----------



## Faster

Great Post, WHL

Welcome to Sailnet.

Good point too, JStorm, that there were so few incidents given the conditions. It does bear out the skippers/crews' judgement (whether they continued or retired/withdrew/DNS'd as appropriate to their circumstances)

Incidentally I heard yesterday that Incisor may have been lost after all - anyone know more about this??


----------



## CharlieCobra

One of the things discussed was the possibility of amending the PIYA rules to require a full set of sails for the Ocean Races. Many of the boats didn't have Storm Jibs, #5's, three reef points, trysails and the like. Those boat that did were able to continue racing. If these items were required by the rules to be aboard, things wouldn't have been as dicey. Of course, for those folks trying to fly chute in this stuff or who were too machismo to reef, it wouldn't have made a difference. The main point is, everybody got home, with or without their boats. Nice work...


----------



## Boomberries

Faster said:


> Great Post, WHL
> 
> Welcome to Sailnet.
> Good point too, JStorm, that there were so few incidents given the conditions. It does bear out the skippers/crews' judgement (whether they continued or retired/withdrew/DNS'd as appropriate to their circumstances)
> 
> *Incidentally I heard yesterday that Incisor may have been lost after all - anyone know more about this*??


Yes, it is lost. Incisor made a brief reappearance, and there is a picture of the top of the mast and two spreaders showing, and then it sunk.


----------



## Faster

Boomberries said:


> Yes, it is lost. Incisor made a brief reappearance, and there is a picture of the top of the mast and two spreaders showing, and then it sunk.


Bummer.... but thanks for the confirmation.


----------



## JohnRPollard

Just read this great thread. Thanks to all the new posters who came by with their first-hand accounts and safety tips.



Frozensurfer said:


> I was on board Radiant Heat, the boat that called in the mayday and pulled two people from the water. It all happened really fast and their boat was well below the water with the crew on the side of the hull, we were standing by until the coast guard got there as the seas and wind were too much for us to recover them from the vessel. But two got washed off the boat from a large wave and we recovered them from the water. It was one of the hardest things I've had to do at sea, trying to pull them on board in those conditions. Unbelievable!!!


FS, Well done!! You, your captain, and fellow crew deserve high praise for this difficult rescue. Thanks for coming by and sharing the details.


----------



## Boomberries

*Huge kudos*



Frozensurfer said:


> We had lost our ladder over board with some other life rings and man over board gear. But we had another one with the line attached to the boat. We winched them close as we could then took them on the leuward side of the boat and hung onto them for dear life. Shear man power pulled them aboard, not ideal but we did what we could. Waves were putting them underwater on the side of the boat and we hung on, pulling with everything we had, really scary moments. The guys had nothing left to help they were hypothermic and dead tired. It was a miracle we saw the boat and the captain floating away from the boat. I'll never forget his face looking up over the rail


 *Huge kudos to you and the rest of the crew for your amazing efforts during very difficult conditions.* 
Without your excellent assistance and the fortunate proximity of your vessel to Incisor, I am fairly certain things would not have turned out so well. Knowing what to do ahead of time is invaluable - both for those attempting a rescue and just as importantly for those who are the M.O.B. in the water.

I have been on-board for a few MOB's and it is never easy retrieving someone, even in benign conditions. I was out there, so I have an idea how difficult it must have been for you all

WVYC hosts an excellent Boat & Crew safety Tech talk, prior to this race each year. Stuff learned there is applicable in any sailing situation. It has changed the way a number of people I sail with, approach crew and boat safety

Frozensurfer, thanks for sharing your story here for others to learn from.


----------



## wunhunglo

*Heavy weather sails*



CharlieCobra said:


> One of the things discussed was the possibility of amending the PIYA rules to require a full set of sails for the Ocean Races. ....snip.........


Hi Charlie (nice work BTW on your boat).
In general, I think PIYA has missed the point in their section 7 of the safety cert. They don't require a storm jib for ANY category of race. This needs addressing asap. I can't think of any safety equipment list elsewhere that excludes a storm jib for Category 1 and 2 races.

Secondly, most countries that regularly have races in heavy weather, allow using the mainsail track for a trysail. They also strongly recommend having a separate track. PIYA requires having a trysail for Cat 1 and 2, and a separate track (but no storm jib ??). How many cruiser/racers in the PNW have any of us seen with that track? I have seen 2.

Regular offshore/ocean sailors will most likely do that. 99.9% of local sailors doing Swiftsure, Oregon Offshore, Van isle, SS etc... will not invest in a storm trysail track. I think it's in everyone interests if PIYA extract the head from the sand and do what the rest of world does: allow use of mainsail tracks/groove and recommend a separate track for those that want to. At least sailors may be more motivated to have a trysail and USE it if they don't have deep reefs in day-racing mainsails.

With respect to reefing, on high performance boats (e.g. planing boats) apart from fun-factor (reckless or otherwise) there is a valid line of thinking that if you can sustain off-wind speeds of 15 knots and up, the apparent wind speed is often 50% of the true wind speed. Loads are therefore a lot less and steering in big seas is often easier the faster you go. The problem is when you crash at that speed !!!

I think that needs to be taken into consideration when looking at the "grip it and rip it" crowd. Having said that, coming back upwind in storm conditions definitely needs some smaller sails. Some boats do very well under a 100% #3, 80% #4, or a 60% #5 without the mainsail in winds up to to the 50's (e.g. Santa Cruz 27, J120). Some fractional rigs might do better with a bit of rag on the mast e.g. a single deep reefed main (e.g. 40% or 50% of mainsail luff), or simply a trysail (setting a trysail is certainly easier with a separate track).

One last point for the sailmakers: on the whole, reef points and clew reinforcing are generally a token gesture. One key issue is that the reef clews are not progressively high enough in relation to the tack. We had a few moments with all three of the reefs where the boom got buried, particularly when it was up in the 50 knot range.

At that point, the most important aspects in a deep reef are to shorten sail and keep the boom end out of the briny. We had to ease the vang to do that which causes other issues... i.e. the fully battened main would start to wrap the battens around the shrouds and spreaders, and the more the vang gets eased, the bigger the risk of chinese gybes, busting battens, ripping batten pockets and sails, and losing a gooseneck.

Lastly, many racers sneer at lazy jacks. Nearly all the Volvo boats, Open 60's or in fact anyone racing offshore, uses lazy jacks. They not only keep the main under some control while taking a reef, but crew are less exposed to the dangers of standing on the coachroof on a heavily rolling deck, with the boom thrashing around. They can easily be removed for normal round the cans races and the costs are minimal. Most boat owners probably have the line and eye straps already in spares e.g. it takes at least 6 small eye straps, and some old spinnaker sheets to do it.

If I had any input into the local safety regs, I'd strongly recommend that every boat install them for Cat 1 & 2 races, and have at least one deep reef of 40% and a storm jib. We'd all have better offshore racing experiences by doing it.

Anyhooo... off to relax and wash some salt out of gear LOL


----------



## fjon

After spending half my morning reading this and the SA threads, just wanted to thank all the race participants, wunhunglo, Boomberries and Frozensurfer & many others, for sharing your experiences. It has been very interesting and instructive to this charter sailor looking to cruise. And special kudos to Radiant Heat's crew for their lifesaving success w/the mayday and pulling the two crew from sea. I bet it feels really fine to have been able to save those lives. 

I especially liked hearing from the leaders who were experienced and prepared for those conditions. It makes sense and gives confidence. Contessa 32 just whistling along working on the nights menu. I'm with Stillraining, and would loved to have been out there.


----------



## smackdaddy

I might have missed it, but I thought I read that there were a dozen sailors in the water at one point. Aside from Incisor (which had a crew of 6 think?) - were there other MOBs?


----------



## Stillraining

wunhunglo said:


> Hi Stillraining... long time so see.
> No problem with quoting my other post over here.
> 
> anyhooo... nice to hear from you Stillraining. Keep in touch


Will do Wun....Ill come up for some lessons one of these days...

As always, greatly appreciate your candor and experience...thanks for sharing a sliver of it here with us..

Scott


----------



## Faster

smackdaddy said:


> I might have missed it, but I thought I read that there were a dozen sailors in the water at one point. Aside from Incisor (which had a crew of 6 think?) - were there other MOBs?


I believe they were all momentary washovers quickly recovered here and there... not hearing that anyone got far separated from their boats.


----------



## jackdale

What the current rules for getting weather updates during the race, especially grib files, weatherfax, etc.. that require using Internet, etc.?

We used Expedition on the 2008 Swiftsure and were able to get updated grib files during the race.

When cruising I get Internet based updates as often as I can.


----------



## wunhunglo

*Receiving weather data while racing*



jackdale said:


> *What the current rules for getting weather updates during the race,* especially grib files, weatherfax, etc.. that require using Internet, etc.?
> 
> We used Expedition on the 2008 Swiftsure and were able to get updated grib files during the race.
> 
> When cruising I get Internet based updates as often as I can.


Typically, boats are permitted to get any freely available data. (RRS- 41.c & d ) The NOR and/or SI's may go further and specifically state that "freely available" excludes any weather service for which a subscription or fee is paid. There have been recent changes to this too and some have permitted data from subscribed services like Sailflow.

If doing a Vic-Maui, Pac Cup, Trans Pac, or Newport-Bermuda, Global Marine Networks has frequently offered special packages of certain Gribs, satellite images and text reports for race entrants at no charge. These are accessible either by Iridium satphone, SSB, or when on land, via a normal internet connection. In this situation, the Race Committees will prohibit existing subscription service users from using their current setup, and will typically have to reinstall the freebie bundle to keep everyone on a level playing field.


----------



## smackdaddy

If this does all go bad from the CG/Federal standpoint, what can they do to the RC of this race? I fully support the rule that it's ALWAYS the skipper's call and his call only. And I think the RC made the right call in letting this race go on because of the kind of race it is (qualifier for the VM).

But I'm curious about what responsibility the RC will have in this - _purely as seen by government authorities._..and what actions they could take against it.


----------



## blt2ski

Smack,

Not sure up in Canada from what Guest, ie the CCG that posted, they may not have authority per say to do much. But lets let a Canadian comment before I lead us astray. 

Now here in the states........we have to get permits, so the CG can shut a race down in the future, see threads at SA re some of the Farralon races out of SF bay. Or they add restrictions at what seems to be the last minute, ie locate beacons as they did this year, so the race was ran inside the bay. I am NOT saying that the beacons "were/are not a bad idea" probably a good one, but with them ie USCG able to do this at the last minute as they did, I do not like that part, but if they would have done some kind of ruling a few months/weeks back to let folks buy/borrow them in a reasonable amount of time etc. 

I can see as I mentioned before, some kind of meeting(s) to upgrade rules, so that some items are added to the equipment list as WHL mentioned, or force PIYA, ie local rules group to upgrade the equipment list thru out the jurisdiction. My preferred of the two, ie local single vs the ruling authority - get these guys, as then ALL races will get upgraded appropriately. 

I also do not have issues with some races having pre race inspections, as long as a post is done too. Or as I recall a post in SA, where it was mentioned that you have to report in to RC with storm sails up for the Sydney-Hobart, ie post race inspection that you have storm sails at least! Could be as simple as this. 

These are just comments, my 02, not sure they would or would not work. Hopefully they will only stir some good diCUSSion/views on your question. In the end tho, hopefully a single gov authority will not be the end ruler, but a group of folks can come down with a reasonable solution to what is best for all, ie in a safe, along with able to allow a race to be run in what most of us would call extreme conditions. 

For the record, I would not have gone out in my boat, only because I am good to about 40 knots at current sail rig setup etc. I believe the boat is capable of more, but not as sailed.

Marty


----------



## blt2ski

For kicks and giggles, here is local PIYA's safety requirements for Wa st and BC. so you can see what WHL, Charlie and do a degree myself are referring to for local safety regs. All other area's that race have a non profit corp that is equal to PIYA, along with the PHRF or equal IOR, IMS, IRC ratings council(s)

Marty


----------



## wunhunglo

*PIYA Considering changes*

Finally, it sounds like a reasonable voice representing the PIYA, is asking for suggested changes to the PIYA Certificate. As many have suggested, the ISAF Offshore Special Regs (OSR) should be adopted as they have in almost every country, with some local modifications as needed (e.g. some countries may require storm sails and life rafts for lower categories of races due to prevailing conditions).

Whether or not you adopt ISAF or PIYA, the right choice of race category for the conditions could be improved. 
e.g. there is no reason why SS couldn't continue to be a Cat 2 race, but given the time of year, water temp., storms etc... that the NOR or SI's add that liferafts, or immersion suits, and storm sails be mandated for that event. That might be a good way to bridge the gap between PIYA Cat 1 status and Cat 2 (both of which are weak when it comes to defining PFD's, clip-on strong points on the boat and storm sails).

Irrespective of which country you're in, if the coastguard actually read the ISAF OSR, the Racing Rules of Sailing where it covers accountability, they will find that the racing environment far exceeds any "Boating Safety Guides" for the pleasure boater. If they actually read what national organizations do for courses covering Safety at Sea, Survival, Marine First Aid, AND in many cases set these as prerequisites for race entry, the CG would find that racers on the whole, are very qualified to deal with offshore emergencies.

All the educational and rules infrastructure is in place for sailors. It's up to racers to demonstrate that they will comply by taking it seriously and not cutting corners on safety.

In that environment, any country's CG could only be pleased with it and play less of a regulating role and perhaps more of a supportive one in terms of training courses, guidance etc.. and not policing.

This is of course....utopia. Thankfully the Canadian CG play more of a supportive role.


----------



## jackdale

whl

Merci mucho


----------



## smackdaddy

Found this link to footage of a rescue posted by Runamuck over at SA. Look at those freakin' conditions!

YouTube - Cold Water Rescue

BTW - from what I understand, Runamuck's boat is the one standing by to assist in the rescue of the other dismasted boat. Great job Runamuck.


----------



## AdamLein

Smack... nice find. I didn't realize there was so much fog as well as wind and waves. And yeah, holy crap, those conditions are scary.

The video says the footage is taken near Newcastle Island, close to Nanaimo. The charts show rapid shoaling there, from 180 meters to only 40 in a quarter mile. I imagine that would create some serious waves.


----------



## Boomberries

Latest news is that Incisor has been recovered,and is being towed back today.
And yes, Adam the waves were big for Strait Of Georgia,especially as we neared Entrance Island when the wind picked up to 44-50 knots. Didn't see any fog at all, just lots of spume/spindrift.


----------



## smackdaddy

That's great news on Incisor! Thanks for the update boom.


----------



## Jeff_H

In those kinds of winds and seas, down near the surface, there is so much spray in the air that it can be hard to tell where the air leaves off and the water begins. In those kind of gusts, without turning your head, it can be hard to grab a breath with the water being driven up your nose or into your mouth, or to focus your eyes with the water being driven into your eyes.Diving goggles can help a little but not much. The a water drops at 50-60 mph pelts your face painfully and can actually leave you bruised. 

Jeff


----------



## Faster

smackdaddy said:


> That's great news on Incisor! Thanks for the update boom.


Yeah, I'd heard last night too that Incisor had resurfaced yet again... tough little cookie, that one...


----------



## AdamLein

Some incredible footage taken aboard _Astral Plane_, including surfing over 16 knots, battling 6-meter seas, fighting 55 knot winds... love watching the crew's faces.


----------



## smackdaddy

That was some of the most incredible sailing footage I've ever seen. And I've seen A LOT. 

So 40-45 knots was pretty much a walk in the park. 55 was nuclear. It's really evident how the force is exponential as the wind speed increases. And those freakin' waves!?!?!?!?!

You guys rock. Seriously. Incredible sailing.


----------



## jackdale

From Icon

YouTube - Southern Straits 2010 ICON

There seems to be a fair number of videos on You Tube.


----------



## AdamLein

jackdale said:


> From Icon
> 
> YouTube - Southern Straits 2010 ICON


Another good one. I wonder if they sailed under the trysail... would be nice to see footage of bending it on, tacking/jibing, etc.


----------



## CharlieCobra

Nope, just the storm Jib


----------



## fjon

AdamLein said:


> Some incredible footage taken aboard _Astral Plane_, including surfing over 16 knots, battling 6-meter seas, fighting 55 knot winds... love watching the crew's faces.


_WooHoo!_ Great video. Good driving and crew attitude. These guys must have practiced together a time or two before the race.


----------



## tdw

Quite remarkable. 

Amazing what you miss by going away for a few days.

Isn't it all a bit good that sites like Anarchy and Sailnet can be of some use occasionally and not just a bunch of usually well meaning nutters (yes that includes me) babbling away on the internet. 

Thanks to all who participated in this and hi from me to WHL and Boomberries. Nice to see old friends from SA pooping in for a chat.


----------



## smackdaddy

A great write up by Tony Brogan on the race and the rescue of the Incisor crewmen...

Southern Straits - J/30 Class Association Bulletin Board

Lots of cross-posting, but this is all too valuable.


----------



## Faster

That's an amazingly calm factual report on what must have been a totally harrowing experience. In the linked footage above from the newscast the boat visible must be Radiant Heat, as by then Incisor was awash.

Once again, +10 times 10 to the Radiant Heat crew - awesome job!

btw - anyone know the process to nominate people for those awards they hand out for this kind of thing here in Canada?


----------



## smackdaddy

Another thing that keeps popping up is how difficult it was to pull guys aboard Radiant Heat...even with the Life Sling...which they seemed to not use for the hoist but only for the pickup. That actually makes sense to me because in the videos I've seen of its actual use, the hoist set up is complicated and time-consuming. Add on that very lumpy seas - and you've go trouble.

COB is bad news.

*The PickUp Sail thing* makes sense to me (especially in light of the issue of pulling the PFD off people and the heart issues with pulling someone out of cold water vertically). But how do you get the "sail" under the guy in the water in waves?


----------



## AdamLein

Faster said:


> In the linked footage above from the newscast the boat visible must be Radiant Heat, as by then Incisor was awash.


Actually I got the impression that the boat in the news footage was either _Radiance_ or _It's Magic_. A story quoted in an earlier post in the same thread on the J30 forum talks about how a BC Ferry hove-to and provided a lee for a boat that had lost its mast, which is what seems to be going on in the news footage.

Does sound like the reporter is talking about _Incisor_... somewhere I think the details from _Incisor_ got mixed up with the _Radiance_/_It's Magic_ events. Tony Brogan aboard _Radiant Heat_ doesn't mention a ferry, so I'm inclined to think the newscasters got confused.


----------



## Faster

AdamLein said:


> .....Tony Brogan aboard _Radiant Heat_ doesn't mention a ferry, so I'm inclined to think the newscasters got confused.


Yes, I wondered about that too, but then again I reckon that Tony may have been a bit distracted at that point!

No matter, amazing stories all round.


----------



## smackdaddy

Actually over at SA, they mentioned that the news guy did confuse the boats.


----------



## Boomberries

tdw said:


> Quite remarkable.
> Amazing what you miss by going away for a few days.
> 
> Isn't it all a bit good that sites like Anarchy and Sailnet can be of some use occasionally and not just a bunch of usually well meaning nutters (yes that includes me) babbling away on the internet.
> 
> Thanks to all who participated in this and hi from me to WHL and Boomberries. Nice to see old friends from SA pooping in for a chat.


Hi back at ya Womby!  Great site you have here.


----------



## smackdaddy

This has been one of the greatest SN threads ever. Seriously.

Thanks to you SA dudes for keeping us in the loop over here. It's great to have you around.


----------



## wunhunglo

tdw said:


> Quite remarkable.
> .......snip............
> Thanks to all who participated in this and hi from me to WHL and Boomberries. Nice to see old friends from SA pooping in for a chat.


Hi you old Marsupial how are you ?
It was quite a race. On the Long Course, on Kinetic (Beneteau First 47.7) were the first around the Sisters (1st mark of the course) about 50 miles downwind, followed by a C&C 44 about 40 minutes later. After we called in our rounding to the RC, we were advised by the coastguard that the race had been abandoned, and were requested to find the nearest safe port as the storm was forecast to intensify. Intensify? It was already gusting solid 58's and up at the rounding !!!

In terms of wind, it rivaled crossing the Bass Strait in the same Beneteau in the storm that saw saw Berrimilla rolled and dismasted in 2007 after the Syd-Hobart, only a lot colder and about 150 miles shorter !!! With the wind chill, it was -2C.

Anyhoo, after 6hrs of beating, we made a safe port with no incidents or issues. What a sail !!!

(Are you going to join us on a leg of the V-Clipper Race?)


----------



## tdw

HTML:


Hi back at ya Womby! :)   Great site you have here.

BB...thanks for your kind words. I need to pull my finger out and visit SA more often. Been lurking but not contributing. While I'm too old and slow to do much racing (as is the dear old Womboat) Cruising Anarchy remains a wonderful forum. Not wishing to piss in anyone's pocket  but a lovely bunch of whackos. The WLYDO and the Volvo have to be two of the best threads I've ever had the pleasure of being part of.



wunhunglo said:


> Hi you old Marsupial how are you ?
> It was quite a race. On the Long Course, on Kinetic (Beneteau First 47.7) were the first around the Sisters (1st mark of the course) about 50 miles downwind, followed by a C&C 44 about 40 minutes later. After we called in our rounding to the RC, we were advised by the coastguard that the race had been abandoned, and were requested to find the nearest safe port as the storm was forecast to intensify. Intensify? It was already gusting solid 58's and up at the rounding !!!
> 
> In terms of wind, it rivaled crossing the Bass Strait in the same Beneteau in the storm that saw saw Berrimilla rolled and dismasted in 2007 after the Syd-Hobart, only a lot colder and about 150 miles shorter !!! With the wind chill, it was -2C.
> 
> Anyhoo, after 6hrs of beating, we made a safe port with no incidents or issues. What a sail !!!
> 
> (Are you going to join us on a leg of the V-Clipper Race?)


Wun.....I'm not bad for an old fart.....I guess the Hobart would have bigger waves (duh !!) but even at its worse would not get as cold as that. Being drenched by warmish water is a damn sight easier to handle than bone chilling wind. As I said in earlier post I'm far too much of a sook to handle those conditions. A quiet anchorage even with a couple of amateur pirates is more my speed.

Speaking of Berri...have you kept up to date with her travels ? She is now back in Sydney again. What a boat, what a crew. I am in awe of them all. To have done a poofteenth of what Berri, Alex and Peter have achieved would leave me well satisfied, thats for sure. What ? Three or four circs, once through the Berring Strait and to Britain via the North West Passage, two Fastnets (Alex has at least one other on a diffferent boat) and god knows how many Syd-Hobs. Great stuff.

I started a leg of the Clipper but to be honest didn't get into it as I did the Volvo. I will check the schedule though and maybe maybe maybe. OTOH...come the next Volvo...I'll be there with bells on.

Which reminds, I owe the Maestro an email. How is the grumpy old bugger ?

Cheers


----------



## GeorgeB

I too, have been enjoying this thread as well as SA's and the various You Tube videos. Those of you who did the race, do you have any information about the Hobie 33, "Por Favor"? It was being sailed by a couple of crewmates of mine from PacCup 08 and they are planning on doing the race this year in Por Favor and I was wondering how much battle damage they picked up.

I really liked the videos, especially the one where Occam's Razor did their round up on camera. What was the string that the girl in the pit was occasionally pulling? A tweaker/twinger? Equally fascinating were the various vids from Salus. After all that carnage on the go fast boats and then along comes Salus, fully equipped with BBQ and Propane bottles on the pushpit, looking like a Sunday sail with their girlfriends. Then the camera pans up and there's an Ericson 27 emblem on the main. Good for those guys (and gals

I read in one of the threads that a boarding wave took away one of the boat's horseshoe and MOB pole. Sounded like it ripped off at the launcher. Any thoughts on this and how you would change your mounting? I've recently switched over to a MOMS 8 and the Marlon/nylon brackets are starting to make me wonder&#8230;

<OThankfully, the Incisor's crew was all safely picked up. A couple more incidents like that and your CG is going to make you all have EPIRBs like they're doing down here in San Francisco for the ocean races. I think we're only couple more incidents away from having life rafts mandated for us. <O


----------



## smackdaddy

Aha! I knew you'd be all over this thread GB. I was wondering how long it would take you to pop in.

As a learning sailor these videos blow me away in the sense that these guys have spins up in 25-30 knots and look perfectly chill! I just did a write up in BFS about our last outing where just had a full main and 150 flying when we got hit with just over 30 knots and did a "mellow broach".

It really makes me understand how far I have to go in learning boat handling in big winds.


----------



## GeorgeB

Now Smack, Icon was one cherry maxi. They probably have somewhere between half and three quarter mil into that bad boy. It ought to look good and give those guys a fun ride. I was looking at the crew and I couldn't figure out who had a checkbook large enough to campaign her, they all looked so young (must be Microsoft money somewhere). It certainly is a fun ride as long as you're not trimming or driving. Grinding is exhausting and trimming is tough as your grinders never seem to keep up with you. The guy really under stress is the driver. One wrong or late helm adjustment and it's "Down goes Fraser!" It is really easy to stall a high aspect rudder at speed if you horse it around too much. About half the time the trimmer is controlling the boat and all you're doing is acting like a trim tab. Reattaching water flow to a stalled rudder means steering into that roundup rather than away from it like your common sense is telling you to do. I tell you, going fast in a boat is more powerful than any drug addiction. It's been some seven years since going 20+ in the Aerodyne - I can still feel the rush and exhilaration when I think about it today

If you get a chance to come out to SF and do some sailing, I can't promise you a gale, but I'm sure I whistle up something in the low to mid twenties so you can get some practice in for steering in a freshening breeze.<O


----------



## blt2ski

Icon sold recently for around .75 mil to a consortum IIRC. Altho it may be "ONE" main investor with others along for the ride. One of the fellows is Ian, a UK rep out of Anacortes where Icon is now based. He did the video and was the person talking in the hatch if you will about taking the main down. He has a few gray hairs on him. Not sure if it is a premature or he is older than I think.......

Icon is a BPerry custom design. 

Marty


----------



## jackdale

blt2ski said:


> Icon is a BPerry custom design.
> 
> Marty


Who contributed to the discussion on SA ...


----------



## smackdaddy

Jack - where is BP's post? I think I missed it.


----------



## jackdale

smackdaddy said:


> Jack - where is BP's post? I think I missed it.


Southern Straits 2010 courses posted - Sailing Anarchy Forums - Page 5

Southern Straits 2010 courses posted - Sailing Anarchy Forums - Page 14

Among others ...

Do an author on Bob Perry. He is a frequent contributor.


----------



## smackdaddy

Thanks Jack. I'll stop being so lazy.


----------



## Boomberries

GeorgeB said:


> I too, have been enjoying this thread as well as SA's and the various You Tube videos. -snip-.
> 
> I really liked the videos, especially the one where Occam's Razor did their round up on camera. *What was the string that the girl in the pit was occasionally pulling? A tweaker/twinger?* -snip- (and gals
> 
> I read in one of the threads that a boarding wave took away one of the boat's horseshoe and MOB pole. Sounded like it ripped off at the launcher. *Any thoughts on this and how you would change your mounting? I've recently switched over to a MOMS 8* and the Marlon/nylon brackets are starting to make me wonder&#8230;
> 
> <O*Thankfully, the Incisor's crew was all safely picked up*. A couple more incidents like that and your CG is going to make you all have EPIRBs like they're doing down here in San Francisco for the ocean races. I think we're only couple more incidents away from having life rafts mandated for us. <O


 I was just hangin' on to a halyard wrapped around a winch. I need to stay close to the pit in case I need to release the vang or a halyard in a hurry ... so that gives me something to hang on to in case I get washed back a bit. Seriously, I had a blast out there. I have been in more wind and bigger seas, but last time it was at 03:30 in the morning and it was a bit more frightening then.

We had a MOM8, which was washed overboard during this race when we got pinned over with a nasty wave. That was when we decided to call it a day, race-wise and head to Nanaimo. We also broke our tiller extension and gave the helmsman a cold bath during that wee wipeout. The MOM8 was mounted a bit low down and I s'pose the skipper will have to rethink where to put the next one . Once we quit racing, that was when the wind _really_ picked up to 50 knots. We hit boat speeds of 10 - 14 knots under the # 4 jib alone.

Just to be clear. This was not something I make light of. I have a fair bit of heavy weather sailing under my belt, I sail with well experienced and excellent crew and I was comfortable, calm and focused. That's not to say I didn't have a couple moments of uneasiness and asking myself wtf was I thinkin...  I race against the Incisor crew and I know them, and when I read the article about the rescue you can be sure there were tears.

North Shore Outlook - West Van man rescued from deadly waters


----------



## GeorgeB

Boomberries,

Thanks for clearing up that little "mystery" for me. I enjoy looking at different deck layouts and I couldn't quite figure this on out as that line was wrapped around the windward clutch and it would go from taught to slack and back again. I also didn't catch it when you blew off the top part of the spin. And kudos to the guy trimmer/cameraman. Was that some sort of waterproof digital job and how did he get those great shots. A couple of questions if you don't mind. How much water went below and how wet did the cabin get? You guys got swept by waves a couple of times. Why did they squirrel the kite down the forepeak instead of the companionway? I did a lot of letterbox drops last year and now am a complete convert especially in windy and rough conditions. Did you guys have that little safety wire from the MOM 8 wrapped around the pushpit tube and did that break also? I'll be meeting with the Switec rep at next week's Oakland Boat Show and I want to talk to him about the mounting. I'm thinking of getting a fourth mounting connection as well as three more safety wires. What do you think? My friend's sail their Hobie 33 out of Brentwood Bay. Are you guys from the island too? Finally, were there any Moore 24's in the Race? I have another friend up there that races his out of VYC. These guys were all at one time crew members on Mardi Gras.


----------



## blt2ski

George, 

Looking at the whom was in etc list, I did not see any M24's in that race. Not sure I would want to be in one doing that race either. There is a rather strong group of them that get together to do 1D racing here in the Salish sea area. Mostly led by Ben that owns "Moore Uf Da"

Marty


----------



## wunhunglo

*MOB Pole -Stern Tube*



GeorgeB said:


> .........snip.............
> 
> I read in one of the threads that a boarding wave took away one of the boat's horseshoe and MOB pole. Sounded like it ripped off at the launcher. *Any thoughts on this and how you would change your mounting? *I've recently switched over to a MOMS 8 and the Marlon/nylon brackets are starting to make me wonder&#8230;
> <o>.......snip............</o>


I cut a hole in my transom and made a stern tube using a plumbing pipe, just larger than the diameter of the float on the pole, as a mold. The tube took up some space inside the cockpit locker as it went forward inside. A small compromise for ensuring the pole doesn't get washed away in a knockdown. The forward end of the tube was a conical, funnel shaped pluming fitting used to connect the wide diameter tube to a smaller diameter tube that held the top of the pole and flag.

The smaller tube ran inside the boat, through bulkheads and under the side deck. The holes through bulkheads had watertight gaskets.

A polypro rope from the pole was attached to a strobe (hung on the stern pulpit) and a second polypro rope was attached to a life ring and drogue. The life ring was big enough to get into with bulky foulies on and was kept in a bracket inside the cockpit. Once you tossed the life ring over the side along with the strobe, it dragged the pole out of the stern tube.

I have had too many instance on many boats of having the rings or sling completely ripped off the stern pulpit mounts during a knockdown or pooping wave, to ever mount any rings or slings on stern pulpits again.


----------



## Boomberries

GeorgeB said:


> Boomberries,
> 
> Thanks for clearing up that little "mystery" for me. -snip- *I also didn't catch it when you blew off the top part of the spin. And Was that some sort of waterproof digital job and how did he get those great shots.* A couple of questions if you don't mind. *How much water went below and how wet did the cabin get? *You guys got swept by waves a couple of times. Why did they squirrel the kite down the forepeak instead of the companionway?* I did a lot of letterbox drops last year and now am a complete convert especially in windy and rough conditions.* Did you guys have that little safety wire from the MOM 8 wrapped around the pushpit tube and did that break also? I'll be meeting with the Switec rep at next week's Oakland Boat Show and I want to talk to him about the mounting. I'm thinking of getting a fourth mounting connection as well as three more safety wires. What do you think? My friend's sail their Hobie 33 out of Brentwood Bay. *Are you guys from the island too? *Finally, were there any Moore 24's in the Race? I have another friend up there that races his out of VYC. These guys were all at one time crew members on Mardi Gras.


 Hi George. A friend lent us the camera. He was supposed to skipper a boat in the short course and wisely decided not to go out. It's a head-cam, is completely waterproof (obviously, lol) and hands free, once you figure it out. It was the first time we used it, hence me staring like a dork at the blinking red light, trying to figure out if we had it rolling correctly. 
If you want more details about the make and model send me a message.

The boat has an open transom, so water was quickly washed off the boat. We had a little water down below, but not a lot. We did make a note to ourselves, that next time in similar conditions to put the hatch board in the companionway slot sooner. As I said in SA, seeing videos and pics can be invaluable learning tools. 

I agree that letter-box drops are excellent in the right conditions. However, having a reefed main did not allow for it, as the excess sail was tied to the boom. So we dumped some spin halyard to drop the chute behind the main to depower a bit. We usually drop the chute into the forward hatch unless things are really nasty and we have no other options. We had to untie the jib to hoist, so people had to go forward anyways.

Not sure if you could hear it, but we were talking about and preparing to douse as the wind was freshening. We did it about three minutes too late. 

To be honest, I don't know exactly how the MOM 8 was secured or if we had that safety wire you mentioned. (I am just crew) I'm sure the folks at the Oakland boat show will have a ton on excellent information, and I would be interested in knowing what they suggest.

Boat is from West Vancouver

Sheesh ... I feel long winded. Hope that clears some stuff up

BB


----------



## Boomberries

George - just to reply about the camera question you asked. It was a HD waterproof, GoPro Helmet Hero.


----------



## PCP

Great thread. I was travelling and I have missed it.

I would like to post some comments about the need (or not) to have canceled this race.

50 and 60K winds are not rare on transats, even on those made by solo sailors on Minis (23ft) or Figaro Benetau (33ft) and it is not a reason to cancel one of those races.

But those skippers are either professional or very experienced, all of them and the boats, even if small can stand those conditions.

For participating on one of those races you have to make a lot of qualifying offshore smaller races and prove yourself an experienced (and fast) sailor. Only then will they accept you on one of those (no limit) transats. There is one going on now:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/racing/63937-solo-duo-transatlantic-races.html

It seems that the "Straits" race was open to almost everybody, experienced or not and in this case it seems to me that Canceling the race was the right attitude. Considering the level of seamanship and preparation of many crews (that was evident by the number of boats that voluntarily abandoned the race before it was officially cancelled) I have doubts if the race comittee, that should have up to date metereological previsions, should not have postponed the race, in the first place.

It seems to me that only by luck there were not any casualities.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## AdamLein

PCP said:


> 50 and 60K winds are not rare on transats, even on those made by solo sailors on Minis (23ft) or Figaro Benetau (33ft) and it is not a reason to cancel one of those races.


Of course not. If they're in the middle of the ocean, where would they go? If they're in port... well, a many-day race with this level of preparation and investment is postponed at worst, not canceled.



> But those skippers are either professional or very experienced, all of them and the boats, even if small can stand those conditions.


Strong winds in the Strait of Georgia---which has a large fetch but also shallow areas---create conditions that are different from those on the Atlantic.

Also, just because skippers and boats _can_ withstand those conditions, doesn't mean it's wise to do so.



> Considering the level of seamanship and preparation of many crews (that was evident by the number of boats that voluntarily abandoned the race before it was officially cancelled)


Being able to withstand some conditions doesn't mean that doing so is the most seamanlike choice. In the middle of the Atlantic, you don't have a choice; 20 miles from Nanaimo, abandoning the race may be the option that demonstrates the greatest level of seamanship.

It sounds like you're implying that the decision to abandon the race is evidence of a low level of seamanship. I might agree that most boats were not equipped to sail in heavy weather, but not that the decision is evidence of a lack of seamanship.


----------



## PCP

AdamLein said:


> ...
> Also, just because skippers and boats _can_ withstand those conditions, doesn't mean it's wise to do so.
> ...
> It sounds like you're implying that the decision to abandon the race is evidence of a low level of seamanship. I might agree that most boats were not equipped to sail in heavy weather, but not that the decision is evidence of a lack of seamanship.


It seems that you have misunderstood me. What I was saying is that there is a huge difference in seamanship between a professional ocean racing sailor and an ocasional weekend racer and that in that race there was a lot of those. Conditions that are safe for a professional can be deadly for an amateur.

What I was saying is that the "Straits" is a race where no special qualification is needed and therefore it is expected that you will find some relatively inexperienced crews and skippers. Furthermore, on this forum, on a thread about a somewhat inexperienced sailor that was refused on a crew for that race, the conclusion that was reached was that the skipper was also inexperienced.

On a race where you know that there are relatively inexperienced crews, it is not safe to let the race begin knowing that there will be conditions that only very experienced crews can manage. It was for this reason that I have said that probably the race comittee should have postponed the race.

Do you know many weekend sailors that can go safely, solo or duo, under spinaker on these conditions?:

YouTube - Thierry Chabagny et SUZUKI AUTOMOBILES

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Stillraining

Im not going to weigh in on rather the race should or should not have been called.....I have already stated I felt a postponement would have been prudent.

What I will weigh in on is this sense that some seem to have, that a committee ( Lets call it government ) is responsible for all of our safety.

They are *not* and *should not *be....What is needed is for people to learn the protected waters of the PNW and elsewhere in the world can be equally as treacherous as any open ocean and rig their boats accordingly or stay home in conditions not prepared for.

Wunhunglow's and BoomBerries boats and crew were both fitted out and up for the challenge as were several others out there..Wun's gear worn is the same he wares offshore!...It sounds like the crew of the Incisor was prepared as well according to BB but something went wrong....what ever that was...I do not doubt her opinion on that matter...As I know she is a very level headed and experienced gal as well as a straight shooter and would not protect those not deserving of it....rather that opinion extended to rather the boat was up to the task either design wise or kitted out wise Im not sure....maybe she will weigh in on that further.

Things go wrong...that's part of the risk of any sport...Cruisers have their own issues on the water...we have heard of many dragging at anchor stories and boats aground stories recently....no difference....A mistake was made any the people involved either Died, learned from it or didn't and are destined to repeated it again......Some times we just have to hand out Darwin Awards and be done with them.

I have zero feeling of responsibility to educate those whom care not to listen to any of my wisdom that I have either learned myself or been passed down by others into my life.

I will agree there should be changes to the min required equipment for the race...but as far as min experience...I strongly think not...as this race is among one of the best places in the world possibly to get relatively safe and protected Cat II experience....Getting caught with your pants down is no fault of any ones but your own.

If you cant stand the heat, stay out of the Kitchen.


----------



## AdamLein

I agree. There seems to be a question of liability---legal or ethical---in case of injury or loss of crew. By saying, "Given the level of inexperience of the crews, the RC should have canceled/postponed the race," one is saying that the RC is liable if they don't and somebody gets hurt. We are saying that liability is and has traditionally always been with the skipper for the safety of his crew, legally and ethically.

Therefore in our view (at least in my view), almost everything went as it should in this race:

1) The skippers who abandoned fulfilled their ethical and legal obligation to their crews.

2) They and the skippers who didn't abandon and had no injuries are to be commended for keeping their crews safe.

3) In the few cases where injuries were sustained, the skipper is in principle responsible, but liability is only really assigned after all the facts are in, and I don't have all the facts about situations in which injuries (such as hypothermia) were sustained. The jury is presumably still out in these cases; we're all interested in updates as the situations develop.

In any case, the RC isn't liable for injuries to the crew as a result of heavy weather. The committee's ethical responsibilities on race day are that of any governing body: to ensure that the rules agreed upon by the participants are followed.

If the RC is _legally_ liable for injury, well... laws can be changed.


----------



## smackdaddy

PCP said:


> Do you know many weekend sailors that can go safely, solo or duo, under spinaker on these conditions?:
> 
> YouTube - Thierry Chabagny et SUZUKI AUTOMOBILES
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Speaking for all the unqualified weekend sailors...hellz no! But man that looks fun!


----------



## GeorgeB

I know lots of weekend warriors who double and single hand kites. Pictorial evidence is what is hard to come by as most camera boats I know head in when it gets a little snotty. All I got is one with us in a very lumpy sea state of about 5'. It got up to 10-15' when we crossed the "Potato Patch". On our homeward leg the wind had completely clocked 180* and picked up to 25 knots true. We had one really good round up coming off a ten footer but were able to recover without completely auguring in. We were pretty much hull speed and beyond for about an hour. Was a pretty good work out for the helmsman (me). Good enough for third place in this year's Double Handed Lightship Race.<O</O


----------



## Boomberries

Stillraining, thanks for the kind words and support. 

I really don't want to go on about the SS race, but some things I've read here are a bit disconcerting, so I shall try to offer up a few last thoughts.

There seems to be the most conflict surrounding the responsibility of who should decide whether to race or not. Likely those with less experience dealing with sailing regulations (such as ISAF), understand less the significance of leaving the decision to race up to the skipper. For those still doubting the reasons why skippers must take the ultimate responsibility to race or not, I suggest reading fully the regulations and trying to understand the legalities of any variations made. I do not personally know of another person who has raced extensively and who takes it seriously, would see it any other way. It is the skipper's decision.

When I hear of some labels such as "weekend warrior sailors" or what constitutes seamanship, I do take a bit of a stand here. Other races, such as Vic-Maui and Sydney Hobart do require that a set percentage of crew have certain criteria met - such as first aid training, Safety At Sea courses, overnight and distance racing experience which is an excellent qualification that I fully endorse.

While Southern Straits does not have such a requirement, that is not to say that a bunch of "occasional" weekend warrior sailors went out in a foolhardy unprepared state and made a completely stupid decision to race. Most boats quit early on, many abandoned soon after the start or did not start at all. Some made the decision the day before, others made it while motoring out. I applaud everyone who made the right decision based on the current conditions, conditions forecast and their level of experience and the type of boat they were on.

No, I am not a "professional" sailor, but nor am I a flaky woman who does things without much consideration and thought, especially when it comes to safety and sailing. I've done a fair bit of offshore cruising and racing and was well prepared for what the conditions were like. I take it seriously (& yes have lots of fun, too). I've updated my safety equipment in the past year - including a new PFD, added a new quick release system for my tether, added leg straps for my PFD (thanks WHL for teaching me how to make my "garters"), and I have my own personal waterproof DSC GPS equipped radio that I keep on my person in case of falling overboard or the boat gets flipped. I sail a minimum of once a week/ year round.

I've read extensively about seasickness, hypothermia & first aid at sea, and regularly update the first aid kits on boats I race on. I've never been seasick and nobody on our boat was seasick during this race. ( one fellow was a bit nauseated early on and with quick intervention felt fine the rest of the day) Some people do not realize how important it is to try and control crew seasickness, as that alone can disable a boat very quickly if even one or two are affected. I go to safety courses when available, and I encourage others to do the same. I try to keep current reading inquiries into other sailing accidents.
Does this sounds like someone who is a weekend sailor? *Do you think I'm alone in how prepared I am? Nope. *

In our winter series (West Van) it is not unusual to have a race or two a series, with 25 - 40 knots of wind in rough seas. I have sailed in worse conditions that what was present on SS this year. 90% of our crew has *extensive* sailing experience, including offshore. They are not what I would call "weekend occasional" sailors.

Yes, there were possibly some weekend occasional sailors out. Yes, some were possibly not prepared for what was going on out there. Do I know them personally? No. Do I think they are the ones who kept racing? No
Generally for Southern Straights the skippers of the boats have very experienced crew onboard. I take sailing seriously, and I know LOTS of people doing this race have far more experience than I do.

Yes, there was a very close call on one boat. Frightening and sobering. I saw one of the crew from Incisor yesterday and just gave him a big hug. The right words were stuck in my throat behind some contained tears.

There are close calls every day in life .... from cars, to falls, to getting hit in the head from a well hit golf ball. Years ago I lost a brother to what would now be a preventable accident. Despite changes made to improve safety - some people will still make bad decisions!! Lots of people make smart decisions and not everyone should be lumped together and judged or labeled the same way

And for the record, as Cirdan made a point of, in SA; calls to the CG in that 24 hours period was a total of three (from two boats) out of 62 boats that were signed up for SS. (49 call in total). I think that helps demonstrates how self sufficient the skippers and crews out there really were.

Some of us will learn from this and other experiences,some will not. Over regulating everybody about everything does not encourage personal responsibility. Nor will it protect whose who make bad decisions, and in some cases it won't protect those who make all the right decisions either.

Over and out and done on this topic


----------



## Boomberries

GeorgeB said:


> I know lots of weekend warriors who double and single hand kites. Pictorial evidence is what is hard to come by as most camera boats I know head in when it gets a little snotty. All I got is one with us in a very lumpy sea state of about 5'. It got up to 10-15' when we crossed the "Potato Patch". On our homeward leg the wind had completely clocked 180* and picked up to 25 knots true. We had one really good round up coming off a ten footer but were able to recover without completely auguring in. We were pretty much hull speed and beyond for about an hour. Was a pretty good work out for the helmsman (me). Good enough for third place in this year's Double Handed Lightship Race.<O</O


Well done on your race George. In my post yesterday I forwarded the name of the head cam we used. I had to email to ask the type it was. Have you been to the Oakland boat show? Did you learn much about the Mom8 mounting?

I heard about that area called Potato Patch when I sailed to San Fran last year. I was surprised to see it labeled as such on the chart.


----------



## blt2ski

BB,

Which boat is that in your pic? Swagging a J-boat, but not sure. Looks like one sailed out of Orcas, but with out the blue fading to white on the rear.

Marty


----------



## Boomberries

blt2ski said:


> BB,
> Which boat is that in your pic? Swagging a J-boat, but not sure. Looks like one sailed out of Orcas, but with out the blue fading to white on the rear.
> Marty


 Hi Marty - the boat in my avatar is an ILC40 and it's sailed out of West Van


----------



## PCP

Boomberries said:


> Stillraining, thanks for the kind words and support.
> 
> I really don't want to go on about the SS race, but some things I've read here are a bit disconcerting, so I shall try to offer up a few last thoughts.
> 
> There seems to be the most conflict surrounding the responsibility of who should decide whether to race or not. Likely those with less experience dealing with sailing regulations (such as ISAF), understand less the significance of leaving the decision to race up to the skipper. For those still doubting the reasons why skippers must take the ultimate responsibility to race or not, I suggest reading fully the regulations and trying to understand the legalities of any variations made. I do not personally know of another person who has raced extensively and who takes it seriously, would see it any other way. It is the skipper's decision.
> 
> When I hear of some labels such as "weekend warrior sailors" or what constitutes seamanship, I do take a bit of a stand here. Other races, such as Vic-Maui and Sydney Hobart do require that a set percentage of crew have certain criteria met - such as first aid training, Safety At Sea courses, overnight and distance racing experience which is an excellent qualification that I fully endorse.
> 
> While Southern Straits does not have such a requirement, that is not to say that a bunch of "occasional" weekend warrior sailors went out in a foolhardy unprepared state and made a completely stupid decision to race. Most boats quit early on, many abandoned soon after the start or did not start at all. Some made the decision the day before, others made it while motoring out. I applaud everyone who made the right decision based on the current conditions, conditions forecast and their level of experience and the type of boat they were on.
> 
> No, I am not a "professional" sailor, but nor am I a flaky woman who does things without much consideration and thought, especially when it comes to safety and sailing. I've done a fair bit of offshore cruising and racing and was well prepared for what the conditions were like. I take it seriously (& yes have lots of fun, too). I've updated my safety equipment in the past year - including a new PFD, added a new quick release system for my tether, added leg straps for my PFD (thanks WHL for teaching me how to make my "garters"), and I have my own personal waterproof DSC GPS equipped radio that I keep on my person in case of falling overboard or the boat gets flipped. I sail a minimum of once a week/ year round.
> 
> I've read extensively about seasickness, hypothermia & first aid at sea, and regularly update the first aid kits on boats I race on. I've never been seasick and nobody on our boat was seasick during this race. ( one fellow was a bit nauseated early on and with quick intervention felt fine the rest of the day) Some people do not realize how important it is to try and control crew seasickness, as that alone can disable a boat very quickly if even one or two are affected. I go to safety courses when available, and I encourage others to do the same. I try to keep current reading inquiries into other sailing accidents.
> Does this sounds like someone who is a weekend sailor? *Do you think I'm alone in how prepared I am? Nope. *
> 
> In our winter series (West Van) it is not unusual to have a race or two a series, with 25 - 40 knots of wind in rough seas. I have sailed in worse conditions that what was present on SS this year. 90% of our crew has *extensive* sailing experience, including offshore. They are not what I would call "weekend occasional" sailors.
> 
> Yes, there were possibly some weekend occasional sailors out. Yes, some were possibly not prepared for what was going on out there. Do I know them personally? No. Do I think they are the ones who kept racing? No
> Generally for Southern Straights the skippers of the boats have very experienced crew onboard. I take sailing seriously, and I know LOTS of people doing this race have far more experience than I do.
> 
> Yes, there was a very close call on one boat. Frightening and sobering. I saw one of the crew from Incisor yesterday and just gave him a big hug. The right words were stuck in my throat behind some contained tears.
> 
> There are close calls every day in life .... from cars, to falls, to getting hit in the head from a well hit golf ball. Years ago I lost a brother to what would now be a preventable accident. Despite changes made to improve safety - some people will still make bad decisions!! Lots of people make smart decisions and not everyone should be lumped together and judged or labeled the same way
> 
> And for the record, as Cirdan made a point of, in SA; calls to the CG in that 24 hours period was a total of three (from two boats) out of 62 boats that were signed up for SS. (49 call in total). I think that helps demonstrates how self sufficient the skippers and crews out there really were.
> 
> Some of us will learn from this and other experiences,some will not. Over regulating everybody about everything does not encourage personal responsibility. Nor will it protect whose who make bad decisions, and in some cases it won't protect those who make all the right decisions either.
> 
> Over and out and done on this topic


Great post. But then is hard to understand why they called the race off. Reading your post it seems that the guys that were racing could stand the conditions and the guys that could not have already retired.

It don't seems that simple to me. For what I have read it looks that only luck has prevented some casualties. And if the race went on .... probabilities would be bigger, I mean for some terminal accidents and that does not seem acceptable to me.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Faster

Boomberries said:


> I really don't want to go on about the SS race, but some things I've read here are a bit disconcerting, so I shall try to offer up a few last thoughts.........


That was an excellent summation, BB,. I agree that with the majority of the fleet withdrawing before or soon after the start, clearly most sailors made their individual calls according to boat and abilities correctly and in time.

Some stayed for a taste and bailed out into Howe sound, and even then getting back to WV was a challenge.

I certainly wouldn't want to see race committees crippled or otherwise compromised in running races. If class rules have stated limits then obviously they must be considered, but otherwise I think, if nothing else, this year's SS demonstrated that the majority of the crews made the right choices for themselves.

Great to have you and WHL contributing here, btw... welcome!


----------



## AdamLein

From an event organization standpoint, I can see the reasoning behind calling off a competition if something like 85% of the competitors drop out.

I guess it depends on the priorities of the organizers: if you want the event to be about toughing it out against whatever nature can throw at you, with high attrition and a race between the few remaining diehards (Vendee Globe), then it makes sense to keep the race going.

But if you're more interested in a large event with lots of exciting interactions between competitors and a nice distribution of results on the scoreboard, perhaps because you want a somewhat fair and objective way of declaring a "best" crew/boat, then you're not getting what you want anymore after there's only a handful of competitors left.

Also, just because _we_ believe that the RC isn't liable and that responsibility lies entirely with the skipper, doesn't mean that the RC believes that lawyers believe it as well. Canceling the race says "At this point we needed to show that our priority was getting the boats back safely," as if the RC has any ability to ensure the safety of any boat once she's out on the water.


----------



## smackdaddy

Boomberries said:


> Stillraining, thanks for the kind words and support.
> 
> I really don't want to go on about the SS race, but some things I've read here are a bit disconcerting, so I shall try to offer up a few last thoughts.
> 
> There seems to be the most conflict surrounding the responsibility of who should decide whether to race or not. Likely those with less experience dealing with sailing regulations (such as ISAF), understand less the significance of leaving the decision to race up to the skipper. For those still doubting the reasons why skippers must take the ultimate responsibility to race or not, I suggest reading fully the regulations and trying to understand the legalities of any variations made. I do not personally know of another person who has raced extensively and who takes it seriously, would see it any other way. It is the skipper's decision.
> 
> When I hear of some labels such as "weekend warrior sailors" or what constitutes seamanship, I do take a bit of a stand here. Other races, such as Vic-Maui and Sydney Hobart do require that a set percentage of crew have certain criteria met - such as first aid training, Safety At Sea courses, overnight and distance racing experience which is an excellent qualification that I fully endorse.
> 
> While Southern Straits does not have such a requirement, that is not to say that a bunch of "occasional" weekend warrior sailors went out in a foolhardy unprepared state and made a completely stupid decision to race. Most boats quit early on, many abandoned soon after the start or did not start at all. Some made the decision the day before, others made it while motoring out. I applaud everyone who made the right decision based on the current conditions, conditions forecast and their level of experience and the type of boat they were on.
> 
> No, I am not a "professional" sailor, but nor am I a flaky woman who does things without much consideration and thought, especially when it comes to safety and sailing. I've done a fair bit of offshore cruising and racing and was well prepared for what the conditions were like. I take it seriously (& yes have lots of fun, too). I've updated my safety equipment in the past year - including a new PFD, added a new quick release system for my tether, added leg straps for my PFD (thanks WHL for teaching me how to make my "garters"), and I have my own personal waterproof DSC GPS equipped radio that I keep on my person in case of falling overboard or the boat gets flipped. I sail a minimum of once a week/ year round.
> 
> I've read extensively about seasickness, hypothermia & first aid at sea, and regularly update the first aid kits on boats I race on. I've never been seasick and nobody on our boat was seasick during this race. ( one fellow was a bit nauseated early on and with quick intervention felt fine the rest of the day) Some people do not realize how important it is to try and control crew seasickness, as that alone can disable a boat very quickly if even one or two are affected. I go to safety courses when available, and I encourage others to do the same. I try to keep current reading inquiries into other sailing accidents.
> Does this sounds like someone who is a weekend sailor? *Do you think I'm alone in how prepared I am? Nope. *
> 
> In our winter series (West Van) it is not unusual to have a race or two a series, with 25 - 40 knots of wind in rough seas. I have sailed in worse conditions that what was present on SS this year. 90% of our crew has *extensive* sailing experience, including offshore. They are not what I would call "weekend occasional" sailors.
> 
> Yes, there were possibly some weekend occasional sailors out. Yes, some were possibly not prepared for what was going on out there. Do I know them personally? No. Do I think they are the ones who kept racing? No
> Generally for Southern Straights the skippers of the boats have very experienced crew onboard. I take sailing seriously, and I know LOTS of people doing this race have far more experience than I do.
> 
> Yes, there was a very close call on one boat. Frightening and sobering. I saw one of the crew from Incisor yesterday and just gave him a big hug. The right words were stuck in my throat behind some contained tears.
> 
> There are close calls every day in life .... from cars, to falls, to getting hit in the head from a well hit golf ball. Years ago I lost a brother to what would now be a preventable accident. Despite changes made to improve safety - some people will still make bad decisions!! Lots of people make smart decisions and not everyone should be lumped together and judged or labeled the same way
> 
> And for the record, as Cirdan made a point of, in SA; calls to the CG in that 24 hours period was a total of three (from two boats) out of 62 boats that were signed up for SS. (49 call in total). I think that helps demonstrates how self sufficient the skippers and crews out there really were.
> 
> Some of us will learn from this and other experiences,some will not. Over regulating everybody about everything does not encourage personal responsibility. Nor will it protect whose who make bad decisions, and in some cases it won't protect those who make all the right decisions either.
> 
> Over and out and done on this topic


+1000


----------



## wunhunglo

PCP said:


> Great post. But then is hard to understand why they called the race off. Reading your post it seems that the guys that were racing could stand the conditions and the guys that could not have already retired.
> 
> It don't seems that simple to me. For what I have read it looks that only luck has prevented some casualties. And if the race went on .... probabilities would be bigger, I mean for some terminal accidents and that does not seem acceptable to me.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Paulo,
Being on the first boat of only two boats to round the furthest mark on the long course, let me offer my observation too. The race was abandoned as a combination of many things. It had little to do with the various radio calls to the Coast Guard, as the vast majority did not come from the race participants, many of whom had already retired before the race was abandoned.

The updated forecast called for sustained and worsening conditions and since less than a handful of boats across 3 different courses were still racing/handling the conditions as one would expect of offshore race boats, it was prudent/practical to abandon.

For the two of us remaining on the long course, the Coast Guard's radio request to head for the nearest safe harbour didn't mean much relief as we still had to beat to windward in 55+ knots to get anywhere safe. 6 hours later, we reached a harbour. We could actually have finished the race !!

The two of us were also two boats fully prepped to do the 2300 mile Vic-Maui race in July this year, so it's something we had to be prepared for anyway.

I'm with BoomBoomVaroooooom on this one... we have probably flogged a dead horse. We all race under the ISAF Racing Rules of Sailing and do so knowing that it's the skipper's responsibility to decide whether or not to race. Crew also have a choice whether or not to sail in conditions beyond their capabilities.

If we ever expect to be competent in going offshore (racing or cruising), being self-sufficient, and safely surviving in storm conditions, we must be prepared and practiced at it.

You won't get that if someone else removes a skipper's responsibility for the decision.

I am getting sick of those that abdicate their personal responsibility, or expect someone else to be accountable, or someone else to blame when it goes wrong.


----------



## GeorgeB

Thanks Boomberries, DHLS was one of those races that started out poorly but ended really good. We had a pretty weird light offshore wind (NNE) in the morning, with practically all the fleet going south to keep their kites filled. Our set up allowed us to pinch incredibly high in light air so we and another boat went north which for the longest time looked like a major mistake. Fortunately, when the wind finally clocked, we caught the filling in southwesterly first. We were gettingt second thoughts on our decision while wallowing in the rollers over the Potato Patch as we listened to almost half the fleet retire on the VHF.

Yes, I was able to speak to the Switek rep about the MOM8. He apparently heard about what happened to you guys as he was reluctant to talk specifically about yours washing off. He did say that the nylon (Marlon?) mounting knobs are designed to shear off (to protect the unit in the event of a docking accident). He said that the SS wire and carabineer is the safety back-up and should have kept the device attached to the boat. He also said that one wire was sufficient. I'm planning on mounting a second one on the other bracket as additional back-up and to keep the unit in roughly the same orientation to the boat and not potentially flipped or twisted over. He didn't like my original set up of having it directly off the stern as that did not have sufficient clearance for the unit to drop clear of the boat (as it is inflating). My unit is now mounted over the "a" in Freya on the port quarter.

<OThanks' for the helmet cam info. We had a very successful boat show (with a devastated checkbook to prove it) so we will be putting off any camera purchase until next year.

<OParting shot at the Southern Straits: It is my understanding that this is a pretty premier race up in B.C. that attracts a lot of sleds from the US and it is also used as a tune-up for the Hawaii races. My friends used the race for that purpose as they are scheduled for the Pacific Cup to Kanehoe this July. We, in Northern California use races like the Coastal Cup, LongPac and Windjammer races for the same purpose. And although most of us who have to work for a living (making us "weekend warriors".) The boats and crews who do these races are the crème of the crop. I'm pretty sure that the weekend duffers were a very, very small minority in the SS as they are rare in our offshore races. The safety and equipment standards that the boats have to meet in order to be eligible rules out about 90% of the boats in our area. If I was to fault the RC at all, it was them knowing the forecast was going to be bad and they started anyway. I know that they had logic in not delaying (the next day's high killed the wind), I think that your local CG will use the negative publicity to be more intrusive in the future. I wouldn't be surprised if the they start acting more like CG Group San Francisco.

<ST1The "Potato Patch" is a named portion of the North Shoal at the Golden Gate. It rises abruptly to 35-38' (low tide) from over 100' for the rest of the Gulf of the Farallones. It is the first shallow water the Bearing Sea waves encounter and has been a named shoal since the 1800's. Legend has it getting it's name when a schooner carrying a cargo of potatoes broke up while attempting a crossing. Like the other bars on the West Coast, it is quite hazardous in the wrong sea state. The USCG forced a cancellation of the Duxbury Reef race a couple of years ago because of the conditions. To see "typical" conditions, rent "Sailing in Heavy Weather" from Netflix.


----------



## PCP

GeorgeB said:


> ...If I was to fault the RC at all, it was them knowing the forecast was going to be bad and they started anyway. ...


Well, this is what I have said: "It seems that the "Straits" race was open to almost everybody, experienced or not and in this case it seems to me that Canceling the race was the right attitude. Considering the level of seamanship and preparation of many crews (that was evident by the number of boats that voluntarily abandoned the race before it was officially cancelled) I have doubts if the race comittee, that should have up to date metereological previsions, should not have postponed the race, in the first place".

By the posts of GeorgeB and wunhunglo it sems clear that there were few crews that were experienced enough to race on those conditions. It also seems clear that most of the crews didn't and retire.

RC knew the meteo prevision and after all evidence, it seems to me that they probably should have postponed the race, but also that they were right in cancelling it (face to the huge number of abandons and to the potential risk for the others).

Of course this is just my opinion, but I don't understand why it seems to have pissed some guys. I apollogize. I had no intent in pissing nobody .

If some tragic accident(s) would have happened on this race, that would make this a much bigger issue:



GeorgeB said:


> ...I think that your local CG will use the negative publicity to be more intrusive in the future. I wouldn't be surprised if the they start acting more like CG Group San Francisco....


Regards

Paulo


----------



## Boomberries

Hello Paulo - I did not get the sense that anyone was pissed off at you. : ) It is a subject that deserves time & considered thought. A very good understanding of racing standards is very helpful to arrive at informed, fair minded opinions. We (sailors) all should care about situations like this and hopefully learn from it.

I would like to say that just because a boat retires does not mean necessarily, nor does it prove, that they were overwhelmed or under prepared for the conditions. It is probably true in some cases, but probably not all. 

Even on boats that are professionally crewed and prepped, in conditions like those during SS -things break, some crew can suffer injuries, stuff happens and those boats too, (pro racers) decide to make a prudent decision to withdraw or retire.

I look forward to exploring other threads to learn more about the experiences of others here in SN. 

GeorgeB - awesome picture of the boat you were racing on. Thanks for the info re: the Mom8 and how the Potato Patch got the name. When I sailed there last year, someone had told me about that area and I was looking out for it on our way down

: ) BB


----------



## puddinlegs

PCP said:


> It seems that you have misunderstood me. What I was saying is that there is a huge difference in seamanship between a professional ocean racing sailor and an ocasional weekend racer and that in that race there was a lot of those. Conditions that are safe for a professional can be deadly for an amateur.
> 
> What I was saying is that the "Straits" is a race where no special qualification is needed and therefore it is expected that you will find some relatively inexperienced crews and skippers. Furthermore, on this forum, on a thread about a somewhat inexperienced sailor that was refused on a crew for that race, the conclusion that was reached was that the skipper was also inexperienced.
> 
> On a race where you know that there are relatively inexperienced crews, it is not safe to let the race begin knowing that there will be conditions that only very experienced crews can manage. It was for this reason that I have said that probably the race comittee should have postponed the race.
> 
> Do you know many weekend sailors that can go safely, solo or duo, under spinaker on these conditions?:
> 
> YouTube - Thierry Chabagny et SUZUKI AUTOMOBILES
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Paulo, with due respect, there are folks with Olympic medals in their trophy cases, mini transat participants, one design national champions, and a large number of very skilled amateurs with thousands of miles and decades of ocean experience that participate in the southern straights and other races in the region. These aren't after work beer can races. Granted, while you occasionally find a boat with too little experience for particular conditions, they are rare in the PNW. Even in good weather, tidal changes, currents, damn cold water, and navigation challenges are well considered by the vast majority of boaters (both racers and cruisers) in the region. I'd say that it was experience and knowing personal and/or equipment limits that kept a number of boats from leaving the dock. You asked, "Do you know many weekend sailors that can go safely, solo or duo, under spinaker on these conditions?" In the conditions in the video, yes. In this year's SS, from the observations of many who were there, I don't even know that a professional could have without destroying their boat given the wave size and more importantly, wave period.


----------



## smackdaddy

I'm bumping this thread because it was one of the all-time best at SN. Real sailors working together. Just like the Mac thread.

It's the "help and learn" mantra. Not the "rip and gloat" approach of typical keyboard mariners. That's what SN's all about. And that's what I love about this place!


----------

