# 30k Sailing Kitty, what’s your next move?



## scubadoo (Apr 5, 2014)

Ok, time to ask for some advice. Unheeded, no holds barred, internet brainstorming if you will.

Having roughly 30k to spend on a sailboat in the fall of 2015 there seems to be many options to consider. Do you acquire a sound craft for 20k and keep 10k in the Kitty for unforeseeable repairs? Do you purchase a derelict vessel and spend 2 years and 20k repairing / upgrading it? Do you spend 29k and just have enough left over for taxes / paperwork while discovering problems along the way?

The criteria:
28 to 32 feet in LOA
Most likely single handed sailing by a 45yr old, 5’-8” reasonably fit fellow 
Mostly coastal cruising in the Gulf of Mexico
Some off shore stints of 2 to 3 week passages (not opposed to carrying supplemental containers for fuel and H20 if necessary)
Will be living aboard 8 months a year, but a large galley is not required / desired
Will keep this vessel for at least 10 years possibly longer
Monthly cruising kitty = 2k for provisions, insurance (boat), repairs

Please also feel free to name a few vessels and their approximate year / value if you would.

Every individual is different and your response is the only right answer (please don’t hop on the mob wagon)….Just fishing for some interesting responses, un-candid opinions, food for thought, more criteria to consider……In the words of the late Mr. Marley “Stir it Up!”

Cheers!


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

Are you no longer working so you're not counting on additional income on a regular basis? Or is the monthly cruising kitty part of the $30K?


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## scubadoo (Apr 5, 2014)

*30k Sailing Kitty, what's your next move?*

Monthly cruising kitty is 2k (see criteria)....working online, on land and at sea.
Best!
Doo


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Here's a list of options in your area....

(Sail) Cruiser Boats For Sale

28-32 footers up to $25K to give you some left over cash for incidentals.

You'll need to make some fundamental decisions about boat type, must have's, deal breakers etc to filter down your candidates....


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## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

How about that Allmand 31:

1980 Allmand 31 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Diesel, roller furling, pressure water, autopilot. Decent reviews. Maybe get her for $13,000?


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

pearson triton, yankee 30, contessa 32, bodega bay 30/farralone 29, cape dory 28, 30, 32? 35, westsail 32, westsail 28, cal 30, cal 31, ericson 30, ericson 32, 35, s&s 34,morgan 31, 34(early models), islander 34,36, maybe bahama 30, pearson 28, 30, vanguard 32, alberg 30, 35, spencer 35, c&c35, cheoy lee31, h28, rawson 30, trintella 29, contest 29, some grampians, some albin(vega 27 is a bit smaller) albin cirrus is a cool boat, catalina 34, hallberg rassy 31, monsun, mariner 31 ketch, hans christian 34, union polaris 36, tayana 37 (if you can find under 30k)

I like sailboatlistings as another search engine:
http://www.sailboatlistings.com/cgi...---&state=&view_records=+Show+Matching+Boats+

that should get your juices flowing....there are a gazillion more out there to choose from...these are just some that I have in mind for projects here and there or solo cruising too...

good luck

EDIT how could I forget the bristols???

27, 29(my fave) 32 and 34 if you go bigger they can be quite a bit more $$$$$$

also tartan 30(old version not the tartan 10) 34, 34c not bad, 37 is out of your range really but a sweet boat just ask chef.


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## deltaten (Oct 10, 2012)

roughly 1/3 for purchase, 1/3 for outfitting(variable, depending on #1) and 1/3 for contingencies and start-up expenses missed in #'s. 1 & 2. It is *always* going to cost more than you budget/think it will 
Best to fold yourcash, put it in your pocket and wait out. the better/perfect boat.
Patience is paramount.
I looked for over ayear.. When I. did find the one" ,I had a pile of cash and leverage to market the purchase;considering the. 1st paragraph.. I'm still (reasonably) on budget.


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## scubadoo (Apr 5, 2014)

Some sweet rides in the lists above! 
Couple more questions....
How do you feel about requesting a survey on a boat worth less than 20k?

Will the insurance company require a survey or will they inspect it themselves?

How agressive do you get when making an offer....do you treat it like buying an older used car and start at 50%?

I Don't want to prey on those needing to sell, but is there a rule of thumb for proper form?


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

Im not overly aggresive, however I have often been called out for knowing more than the actual owner of the boat that is being sold and often I find that you can push your luck

if this is the case...tone it down and offer well below what he is asking...if he balks and or doesnt like the offer explain the reasons IN DETAIL

if you are not knowledgeable enough to do this for whatever reason you are best informing yourself with CURRENT MARKET VALUE

IN YOUR AREA

its of little use to argue what a westsail costs in hawaii when youre in ft. lauderdale fl right?

if he or she is above or below local market value ask questions, why? again dont argue or press the issue too much

some owners just want to sell as is where is and will take a low offer...some dont and call back after they talk it over with the wife or whatever some get mad and tell you to scramble

however as a seller I have had all sorts of people look at my boat and even be rude and condescending

I had a very weird experience with a buyer for my islander 34 who was european and thought my islander was supposed to be like a benetau or something despite being 45 years old...he asked questions like why isnt there 2 heads or a built in microwave etc

despite the boat being a rugged coastal cruiser and setup as so and WELL below market value...

i any case

proper form for me has always been to affer around 25% less than price listed of course if its within market value range and then negotiate from there

some boats you can offer half even a quarter and get it, but that usuall happens with smaller valued boats.

a 30k boat you can go as low as 20 and go up to 22-25k or something...

and yes for a 30k boat a survey is money well spent!

peace


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

scubadoo said:


> Some sweet rides in the lists above!
> Couple more questions....
> How do you feel about requesting a survey on a boat worth less than 20k?
> 
> ...


Yes to the survey, but it is up to you to decide on what your personal limit of liability. I have always told myself any boat over $10,000 will have to be surveyed. Less than that while not something I could loose at Los Vegas could be dealt with but would really depend on the boat and circumstances. Most insurance companies are going to require one, but again if the boat is under a certain $ it will be liability only for me it is kind of like a car. My current car is hovering at the $10,000 replacement range and I am trying to decide if I will go to liability only or just get rid of it.

As far as where to start the negotiations really depends on the situation. Some have boats listed at more than twice what they are worth, while others will have it below what they are worth. Will the guy at twice what it is worth come down much? Who knows you may just piss him off. If you do so what, find another boat, lots out there especially in your area. If you are dealing with a boat broker, they shoudl be able to provide recent sales via soldboats.com. (a broker only web site that is part of yachtworld.com)

How much sailing experience do you have? What kind of boats do you like, all this plays a roll. Do you like modern fin keels, full keels or something in between? Have you attempted to see what kind of internet access you will have in the area you want to be located if you need it for work? Some places it is good, others it is awful and gets expensive quickly.

check out Drake's interview with Ben Stookey he makes it sound easy.






Have fun with the search and research.


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## endoit (Jun 20, 2010)

Plan to have a reasonable kitty for potential problems. In Salomons Maryland there is a couple stuck on a 26 footer with inboard out and outboard lost or stollen. They were on the way south and now have no jobs, money or means to get going as the temps are dropping. I think that a 5-7 k for repairs, health or travel emergency, work slowdown is a must and 10 k would be better. But perhaps I am more conservative then others. Good luck with your search.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

Make sure you at least look at the interior on a Catalina 30. 

A mid 80s in good condition should be around 13 to 18k, Tall rig fin keel version preferred.

It will give you more living space than almost everything else and still sail well.


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## Bill-Rangatira (Dec 17, 2006)

scubadoo said:


> Ok, time to ask for some advice. Unheeded, no holds barred, internet brainstorming if you will.
> 
> Having roughly 30k to spend on a sailboat in the fall of 2015 there seems to be many options to consider. Do you acquire a sound craft for 20k and keep 10k in the Kitty for unforeseeable repairs? Do you purchase a derelict vessel and spend 2 years and 20k repairing / upgrading it? Do you spend 29k and just have enough left over for taxes / paperwork while discovering problems along the way?
> 
> ...


The cruiser, the strong little, deep little boat...
is a complete satisfaction for man. ~Hilaire Belloc


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## scubadoo (Apr 5, 2014)

jzk said:


> How about that Allmand 31:
> 
> 1980 Allmand 31 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
> 
> Diesel, roller furling, pressure water, autopilot. Decent reviews. Maybe get her for $13,000?


....ummmm, that's a lot of vessel....and appropriately named....."Sooie". Thank you for the post!


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

x2 on craigslist...I have bought and sold all but 1 of my boats this way...

there are tips and ways to feed out the spam if youre interested 

ps. TQA mentioned a catalina 30...I did not put that boat on my "list" simply because I dont like the exremely swept back fin keel design and rudder for that matter...I think the 34 is a step up budget permitting

I noticed when buddy boating with a catalina 30 in san fran that it will pound big time and "wiggle" from a good chop...it just needs to be stronger hull wise for offshore work for me, however some have cruised succesfully...

Id love it for coastal work say in the gulf...not bad really.

however I sailed on a 30 its a great sailor, and MAN THE INTERIOR IS HUGE FOR A 30 FOOTER!

the yankee 30 is minitiaure by comparison(perfect solo boat or young couple boat in my opinion) however has a much better ofshore record and building pedigree...its also a very famous s&s design...even after saying this you almost ALWAYS find them cheaper than a catalina 30


apples and oranges really


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

scubadoo said:


> ....ummmm, that's a lot of vessel....and appropriately named....."Sooie". Thank you for the post!


there are 3 or 4 allmand 31 owners on here...

look them up they are in love with theirs


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## FSMike (Jan 15, 2010)

scubadoo said:


> Monthly cruising kitty is 2k (see criteria)....working online, on land and at sea.
> Best!
> Doo


The equipment required for an online signal suitable for working at sea might eat up a sizable portion of your budget.
I suggest you investigate this thoroughly if you haven't already done so.


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## scubadoo (Apr 5, 2014)

FSMike said:


> The equipment required for an online signal suitable for working at sea might eat up a sizable portion of your budget.
> I suggest you investigate this thoroughly if you haven't already done so.


Hi Mike, thank you for the reply! I should have been more specific when I said I'd be working online, on land, and at sea. My online job is actually a teaching job from September to December and I'll be on the hard in a studio apartment in Minneapolis near my kids and family through the holidays. I'll also be drafting and creating renderings for a few clients during that time frame. I haven't considered doing anything online at sea other than maybe sending a few text messages through a sat / gps. At sea (in the precious time between chores on the boat) I'd like to write, sketch, plan (I'm an Architect by trade), take on an odd job here and there..... just to feel useful!


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

As you can see, there are loads of sailboats for sale, some will be immediately sailable, some will need some minor repairs before sailing safely, while others will require a major refit before heading out. From my experience over a lot of years of boating and owning far too many boats (at least that's what my wife says) it will take 2/3rd of the $30 grand for the purchase of the boat, and 1/3 for incidental upgrades. Now, you could get really lucky and find one that fits your needs, and does not need anything other than to top off the fuel and water tanks, fire up the engine, and go sailing. Some of those boats really do exist, so I'm told - but I've never been able to find one.

Good luck,

Gary


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## scubadoo (Apr 5, 2014)

christian.hess said:


> the yankee 30 is minitiaure by comparison(perfect solo boat or young couple boat in my opinion) however has a much better offshore record and building pedigree...its also a very famous s&s design...even after saying this you almost ALWAYS find them cheaper than a catalina 30
> 
> apples and oranges really


After reading much of the Hiscock's adventures, numberous books from Lin and Larry Pardey and of course "20 small sailboats..." I'm leaning toward full keel partially for comfort and partially for the shorter draft. Seems most of the vessels in 20 small sailboats have deck stepped masts....I'm sure due to their size....hoping to find a keel stepped design mostly because of the age range... I walked through a Catalina 30 about 2 years ago, but never had the chance to go for a ride. I think the interior was bigger than my apartment! Very roomy considering the LOA. Looking forward to checking out the Yankee 30 and many more from your list!

What do think about beam width when it comes to living at anchor or at a mooring and a slightly choppy sea state....will it have much of an effect on comfort?

Edit-Just looked at a few Yankee 30's on yachtworld....very nice! The one I was looking at was a '75, looked like shoal draft? Did they change design much over the years of production...any idea of the years of production?


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

what do you want in a boat?

what are your wants/needs?

what are your priorities?

how do you want to sail and where?

do you want to live more comfortably anchored out or sailing? do you want more offshore qualities or what?

now despite what you may think IM NOT BIASED when it comes to different designs

I love full keel boats and I love fin and skeg...I even love bulb fin and spade, I raced dinghies, cats, all sorts of boats however I am conservative when the need arises, for example cruising with my new family I would prefer a string solid built boat, older, possible full skeg rudder and or traditional full keel with cutaway...over say an express 37 or cal 40(despite my infatuation with that boat) or a a new benetau 50

anywhoo

there are all different types of apples and oranges

auspicious did mention something that is very true...just because you dont have a full keel and attached rudder doesnt mean you are completely susceptible to hits or sinking
for example the yankee 30 is a perfect example of this

having said this there ARE BOATS THAT HAVE ISSUES WITH SKEG CONSTRUCTION i beleive both odays and irwins have suffered from a badly built skeg and some boats have had a skeg crack off or fall off(please dont quote me on this however I did get into this when searching for boats...

some owners do indeed modify the rudder(on the yankee 30) and make it longer and different foil shape, as some cases of squirrely action has been accounted for in spirited racing downwind(the yankee 38 the precursor and "mold" to the catalina 38 and big borther to the 30 was famous for this...catalina changed both rudder design and shape as well as keel, deck and construction of hull(lighter and faster) rig was also changed.

IOR ish is what can define this period and type of design. My old islander 36 fits into this era...

the islander 32 a smaller and baby islander 36 as its sometimes called is another potential boat you might be interested in...

in any case I found that despite the catalina 30s beam, many owners report a very rolly boat in chop or confused seas...this might be because the catalina 30 has a notoriously high mast and good sail area for displacement but also might be because of the very swept back and THIN keel(also not much keel ballast compared to other boats of here size(think beam as a method of reducing keel ballast)

anyways

deck stepped mast isnt a deal breaker for me...it is if the boat is notoriously unsupported or thinly built and doesnt have a supportbeam or post

for example my newly acquired merit 25 has mast support by ways of a post that is really strong and a nice glass floor structure below that...despite this the owners reinforced this area with knees for and aft of the v berth area. I have noticed some light crazing at the deck step from below however this may be a result of poor rig tuning or overstressed hull from racing, which is most likely.

anywhoo I too am a fan of keel stepped...if done well and DRAIN well they offer in my view a more solid and "safer" system...

HOWEVER masts that are keel stepped will always always snap and or break in 1 or 2 spots, masts that are deck stepped have been known to just fall over to the side and just need to be restepped...not very often but yes it happens.

yes both have pros and cons

as has been said before by many you do need to develop a list of priorities starting with

how do you want to sail and where?

then go shopping for a boat 

just my cents


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

scubadoo said:


> After reading much of the Hiscock's adventures, numberous books from Lin and Larry Pardey and of course "20 small sailboats..." I'm leaning toward full keel partially for comfort and partially for the shorter draft. Seems most of the vessels in 20 small sailboats have deck stepped masts....I'm sure due to their size....hoping to find a keel stepped design mostly because of the age range... I walked through a Catalina 30 about 2 years ago, but never had the chance to go for a ride. I think the interior was bigger than my apartment! Very roomy considering the LOA. Looking forward to checking out the Yankee 30 and many more from your list!
> 
> What do think about beam width when it comes to living at anchor or at a mooring and a slightly choppy sea state....will it have much of an effect on comfort?
> 
> Edit-Just looked at a few Yankee 30's on yachtworld....very nice! The one I was looking at was a '75, looked like shoal draft? Did they change design much over the years of production...any idea of the years of production?


there are mki mkii mk3...during those years both mast height and draft changed(this was very slight, I cant remeber though...I for sure know the rigs changed and mast height did)
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=1632

what I love about this boat is the 48.5 b/d ratio...its why its such a good performer in rough weather and to weather in heavy winds...

unfortunately the steve botts run website no longer works it was a great association page for the yankee 30

many prefer the originals with stubby mast and deep draft and strong construction...others preffer the tall mast for one design racing for example in san francisco bay there was at a time a big fleet of them...that why you can still get them for under 10k sometimes for as little as 5k.

one huge plus of a yankee 30 is weight placement...the engine is mounted midship off to port...

its a very well balanced and behaved boat...also due to this engine placement its a strong very good performer to weather...often outpointing and outperforming similar sized boats...even the catalina 30.

it also EXCELS IN HEAVY WEATHER

I have personally been on 2 nice yankee 30 both mk2s they had a different rig than the first ones I beleive the lowers changed on them...

Beileive me the yankee 30 is still a dream boat for me...Id love to solo race it say in a transpac or bermuda race etc...

"to dream is to live"


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

When you find a boat that meets your objectives in terms of features, quality, and price, make sure you are actually in love with her. This primal attraction is key, IMO, to a long lasting and happy relationship. Sailing is not reasonable or practical - it is an act of passion, so make sure you have a boat you are passionate about. Spending a time with your boat is like spending a time with your lover, and good sailing is as satisfying as good sex.
So, do not settle, my friend. Find your true love!


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## joyinPNW (Jan 7, 2013)

May I suggest a recent book that goes into great detail about boat designs that make one vs another suitable for bluewater vs coastal sailing, along with safety discussions...great read by a long time sailor who I have no connection to. It's called Sailing a Serious Ocean by John Kretschmer--he has lists in the book of various boats and equipment that you might find useful in your search, although some of them would be out of your budget. Just a thought...


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## hellsop (Jun 3, 2014)

scubadoo said:


> ....ummmm, that's a lot of vessel....and appropriately named....."Sooie". Thank you for the post!


See, that's where different tastes come in. For me, that's a reasonably priced compromise boat (I'd like something with more tankage: water, fuel, holding, but this could be lived with) but it comes with most of the stuff I'd want to add, and is well worth getting a survey done if I were currently looking. And it'd leave about $10k for replacing the inevitable "needs replacing" things.


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## scubadoo (Apr 5, 2014)

joyinPNW said:


> May I suggest a recent book that goes into great detail about boat designs that make one vs another suitable for bluewater vs coastal sailing, along with safety discussions...great read by a long time sailor who I have no connection to. It's called Sailing a Serious Ocean by John Kretschmer--he has lists in the book of various boats and equipment that you might find useful in your search, although some of them would be out of your budget. Just a thought...


Thanks so much for the book recommendation! It arrived Yesterday and I am 1/3rd of the way through it. He is a great story teller and I've been hanging on every word he writes. I've re-read several paragraphs just because of the emotions they trigger as his stories and situations bear so close to heart.

It's also great to see a modern perspective on some "old dogs"! Maybe it would be wise to save a little longer and start with a larger kitty, but at the same time, living in this concrete abyss is extracting it's own toll.


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

I sound like a broken record but albin vega(<$8000). If I was single, I would own one.
If you never want to cross oceans an old hunter($10,000), or catalina($14,000) will do just fine.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

aja grasshopper that is the big question...leave now or leave later...now with less later with more but at what price?

beleive me every sailor that sails into the sunset knows this conundrum

however its when I have had less that I have enjoyed more and experienced more, ive been helped, hitched up onto boats, ate potatoes and rice and tuna but seen the worlds wonders...almost for free! jajaja

only you can take that first step

peace


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