# Latts & Atts is GONE!



## nauticalnut (Sep 5, 2006)

if you go to www.seafaring.com you will get:

"Due to recent changes, this site is being re-designed. If you would like to be kept informed and updated on when it will be operational again, please enter your email below."

I tried some old links I had in my history and manage to get into the message boards off one of them. The site title is now "Bob Bitchin's Seafaring.com" and the first message is entitled: "Bob & Jody no longer with Lats&Atts"

Appearantly the new owners have locked the office doors and let EVERYONE go. The July issue is not being printed.


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## nauticalnut (Sep 5, 2006)

Here is the text from Bob's post:


As much as we hate to tell you all this, we are pretty stupid. We sold the magazine in January and have been living in a fools paradise ever since. This morning (6/20/12) when Eddier Sue went to the office, the doors were locked, the locks had been changed, and the new owners had left a note on the door "Closed Until Further Notice." We were told that the July issue had not been printed. At this time we do not know what will happen, but the "family" (all of whom had been laid off over the past few months) are all in communication and we will update things as we can here on the bulletin board.

"The difference between and ordeal and an adventure is Attitude" Bob Bitchin

"Sometimes it's just an ordeal" Jody Bitchin

_________________
Don't Dream your life, Live your dream!


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Bummer. I have to say it's not much of a surprise. But it still sucks.

So what's next in gonzo sailing journalism?


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Links?


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Found it:
Bob Bitchin's Cruiser's Forum • View topic - Bob & Jody no longer with Lats&Atts


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

smackdaddy said:


> Bummer. I have to say it's not much of a surprise. But it still sucks.
> 
> So what's next in gonzo sailing journalism?


Why not a surprise Smack ?

I thought that L&A was a pretty thriving wee venture. Something must be horribly wrong if you buy a business and within five months close it down. Either they paid way too much for it and couldn't get a return or of course there is the possibility they hadn't paid all the dosh up front and decided to cut and run.

Potential for dirty deeds here.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Call me whatever you will, but I was not a big Latts and Atts fan. Some of it was good. I particularly like his ordeal vs adventure quote. I think it was pretty cool that a business was built around their approach to cruising, but it just didn't work for me. Apparently, I'm not alone.


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## UncleJim (Jul 27, 2009)

I liked the less than reverent approach to life that L&A had. Although I had been noticing that as the economy and advertising dollars started to dip it became more of a "come on our dream cruse" sales brochure. Also there were fewer of those little comic inserts that reminded me of the old CarToon and Mad magazines of my less than reputable misspent youth


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

It didn't work for me. I enjoyed its out there attitude when it began and even subscribed for a year but for me it simply drifted into boring as the years went by. I doubt I've even looked at one of the online editions in a couple of years.

Still and all, from that link of Jones, it appears the Bitchin's themselves have been wiped out by this and I don't particularly like to see that happen.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

UncleJim said:


> I liked the less than reverent approach to life that L&A had. Although I had been noticing that as the economy and advertising dollars started to dip it became more of a "come on our dream cruse" sales brochure. Also there were fewer of those little comic inserts that reminded me of the old CarToon and Mad magazines of my less than reputable misspent youth


Bingo. It's time had come and gone. And there are precious few ad dollars flowing around right now.


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## brokesailor (Jan 12, 2008)

So what happens with their deal with the Lost Soul?


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

Bummer. Bob is an original, and while I found the "I'm wasted in paradise" contributions to be tiring after awhile, the columnists were interesting, and the entire editorial gestalt was a breath of fresh air. I too subscribed for a year or so, but let it expire. I would occasionally pick up a copy on the newsstand. In short, a nice change of pace in small doses.

Bob and Jody did that extensive refit of Lost Soul a few years ago, when as Bob said, the magazine was actually starting to throw off some cash. But it was only short time later that Bob and Jody started building their dream boat with Shannon Yachts and sold Lost Soul. That hull got about halfway finished before they had to pull the plug on it. And as any reader of Lats and Atts knows, Shannon runs an ad in every issue offering to finish the hull for any intrepid cruiser with the cash.

So given the obvious money issues that Bob and Jody were having, I was a bit surprised to see that someone bought the magazine. I know that Bob had been actively looking to sell the magazine, but I thought the "window of profitability" on that had closed, so I wasn't expecting a sale anytime soon. 

I will miss Bob and the magazine.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

"Living Aboard" still seems to be alive. I thought they were published by the same company?


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

latsandatts was good for a long time--the forum became riddled with trolls and cliquishness which doesnt belong ina forum, yet always happens..mjagazine became very very commercial, as have most of the "cruiser friendly" glossy mags.....is time for a change, but the way this change went about sounds rather foul.....


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## Skip Wiley (Jun 21, 2012)

bljones said:


> "Living Aboard" still seems to be alive. I thought they were published by the same company?


The website's alive, but the magazine had been folded into L&A as of this spring (last issue listed on the Living Aboard site is March/April). Last month's L&A had a "Living Aboard" section in the center, this month's magazine had no such thing and next month's magazine ... oh, right.


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## KIVALO (Nov 2, 2011)

****! This was my favorite publication. 

Brad
s/v KIVALO


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## brokesailor (Jan 12, 2008)

*Latts & Atts is GONE!*

Is Bob still going to cruise on Lost Soul?


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## canadianseamonkey (Sep 4, 2006)

Well I called it!!! see the link below and my prediction. Anybody wanna buy me a beer? I wish I could predict stock prices the same 

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/latitudes-attitudes/81451-l-has-been-sold.html

"This is terrible news to me. Bob and Jodie are the hearts of L&A and of their small empire. Just because the new owners are "yachties" doesn't mean they know the newsprint business and how expensive it actually is. Profits are small and the undertaking is huge. Pulp and paper prices are steadily increasing and advertising steadly decreasing. I'm not sure why anybody would want to get into the pubilshing game in these times. I wish them luck, but unless they have deep pockets, lots of experience and contacts, I can see L&A going under within one year. "


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## Argyle38 (Oct 28, 2010)

mstern said:


> Bummer. Bob is an original, and while I found the "I'm wasted in paradise" contributions to be tiring after awhile, the columnists were interesting, and the entire editorial gestalt was a breath of fresh air. I too subscribed for a year or so, but let it expire. I would occasionally pick up a copy on the newsstand. *In short, a nice change of pace in small doses.*


This, and similar comments from others here, mirror my views exactly. I thought I was the only one but I guess not. It was always one of those things where it wasn't exactly my style, but I was always glad it was there. I always thought it was nice that they brought a bit of attitude to cruising, Captain Ron style. I feel similar about sailing anarchy, at the other end of the spectrum.

I could never bring myself to actually subscribe. I did the online subscription for a year once, but didn't really read much of the mag. Still, when I see a copy laying around, I always enjoy going through it.

Too bad how things seem to have gone down. It will make an interesting read once things come out (probably in a court room). I wish nothing but the best for Bob and Jodie.


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## BentSailor (Nov 10, 2010)

I used to pick it up occasionally from the newsagent, but it never grabbed me enough to subscribe to it. It was an interesting take on cruising, just not mine. I'm guessing, without acrimony of any kind, that there are more folks that bought into it's image over at SA than around here.

With that said, there were alot of people tied into the publication both financially & emotionally. What little information there is doesn't paint a nice picture of the future for them. I feel for Bob, his wife, and the extended L&A "family". Being on the sharp end of these situations is not pleasant and I wish them the best.


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## Skip Wiley (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Latts & Atts is GONE!*



brokesailor said:


> Is Bob still going to cruise on Lost Soul?


This seems to be a long story, and I'm quoting from what's left of L&A/Seafaring's website (the forum). Apparently the new L&A owners only leased the Lost Soul from its current owner and were planning to live aboard her themselves except when BB was using it for promotions ... they seem to have gone missing and the guy who bought the Lost Soul from BB five years ago is apparently on his way to take it back. BB says he himself hasn't seen the Lost Soul himself since the Oakland Boat Show.

Among other problems, BB is also a "brokesailor" now ... facing bankruptcy.

DJ and Joe (two of the new owners) used to have a blog for their own sailboat (S/V Wyvern), which hadn't been updated since October and was pulled off the Internet June 10 (oh, wait - it's still in the Google cache).

At any rate, thus far they've pulled a disappearing act. Sextant Publishing's website is for sale via GoDaddy (they took it down early this week, with the most recent Google cache June 17) and the L&A ship's store went into maintenance mode at 9 p.m.-ish June 19.

And there used to be two other people in this Sextant Publishing outfit, but I've no idea where they got to. They don't appear to be listed on the most recent Google cache of Sextant's website.


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## knuckledragger (May 10, 2012)

Article on todays "Lectronic Latitudes"

Latitude 38 - 'Lectronic Latitude


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Sounds like a good fight is brewing. Love it.


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## LakePirate (May 10, 2008)

What could have BB been doing that would warrent Sextant publishing to close its doors and go belly up? If he was in breach of contract why would they not sue for damages and keep on going?


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## Skip Wiley (Jun 21, 2012)

knuckledragger said:


> Article on todays "Lectronic Latitudes"
> 
> Latitude 38 - 'Lectronic Latitude


They didn't interview Bob directly, you may have noticed. And Lat38's publisher might not be out to tell both sides equally - he thinks L&A is somehow "intruding" on "his" territory.


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## knuckledragger (May 10, 2012)

And now this...

Bob Bitchin's Cruiser's Forum • View topic - The Demise of Lats & Atts ... The Events Wench's Perspective

No dog in this fight.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Oh yeah, definitely a good fight. I'd hate to be holed up in a Motel 6 with a bunch of computer equipment and Aeron chairs. That sounds depressing.


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## cruisingdream (Feb 7, 2007)

Does anybody know if DJ worked for Bain Capital?


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## cupper3 (Jun 30, 2010)

Posting from Bob Bitchin's forum reveals this little tid bit about DJ, Joe and their S/V Wyvern.


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## Skip Wiley (Jun 21, 2012)

Other postings from Bob's forum (including the Events Wench thread linked above) reveals what happened to the other two investors in Sextant - frog-marched out, their money gone, with nasty claims being made about their lack of business skills. Hmm, this sounds familiar ...

Kim Paternoster (who apparently has pretty serious business chops, from what I could Google) is in fact posting on BB's forum ... she also lost her investment and is also pretty steamed.



smackdaddy said:


> Oh yeah, definitely a good fight. I'd hate to be holed up in a Motel 6 with a bunch of computer equipment and Aeron chairs. That sounds depressing.


If you'd just crossed a guy who used to run with the outlaw biker crowd, wouldn't you hole up in a Motel 6 and hide?


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## Allen-deckard (Jul 26, 2011)

From an outsider Im wondering if some of the issue might be the fact bob was running a business that was paid for making a profit. New owner comes in maybe not all that business savy maybe hoping that he can improve revenue. Fact remains hes making a mortgage payment and not operating payment free.

Not saying this is the case at all but sometimes peoples dreams are bigger than there head.


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## Skip Wiley (Jun 21, 2012)

The thing is ... in addition to forcing half of the new ownership group out, Dolan didn't pay anybody anything. No mortgage payment. No payments at all.

BB never got paid for the sale and is looking at bankruptcy. Kim Paternoster (one of the two forced out after the purchase) lost all the money she invested. The printer didn't get paid. The company van's lease payments never got paid and it got repo'd. The Lost Soul's lease payments were never made and it got repo'd. The advertisers who actually bit on Doran's new requirement that they pay three months in advance (not an industry standard despite when he claimed, and I've made my career in publishing) are out three months' worth of cash. A lot of employees never got paid.

So, DJ, if you're reading this ... Where's the money? Where's the office equipment (and did you also take employees' personal items when you cleaned out the office equipment)? Where's the L&A intellectual property?


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## UncleJim (Jul 27, 2009)

Wait a minute, i need more popcorn


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Skip Wiley said:


> The thing is ... in addition to forcing half of the new ownership group out, Dolan didn't pay anybody anything. No mortgage payment. No payments at all.
> 
> BB never got paid for the sale and is looking at bankruptcy. Kim Paternoster (one of the two forced out after the purchase) lost all the money she invested. The printer didn't get paid. The company van's lease payments never got paid and it got repo'd. The Lost Soul's lease payments were never made and it got repo'd. The advertisers who actually bit on Doran's new requirement that they pay three months in advance (not an industry standard despite when he claimed, and I've made my career in publishing) are out three months' worth of cash. A lot of employees never got paid.
> 
> So, DJ, if you're reading this ... Where's the money? Where's the office equipment (and did you also take employees' personal items when you cleaned out the office equipment)? Where's the L&A intellectual property?


DJ - you might have missed one very important aspect of the whole M&A thing...


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## canadianseamonkey (Sep 4, 2006)

If BB made a sale and never got the money before signing over the business, then one has to wonder about his common sense. Seems BB was desperate and took the first offer. 

I think that BB was very desperate to sell and the magazine wasn't making much money. High pulp and paper rates and lower subscriptions.

Also, I bet he was building his new Shannon boat by giving the building suppliers contra advertising. (free parts/labout for free advertising) It's not hard to see this when you look at his magazine. Then, BB wrote an article about him not being able to afford the new Shannon and he put the unfinished boat for sale. He got over his head and put L&A for sale and took the first offer...which was obivously conditional and went sour.

It will be hard to recover at his age. Really sucks for him. It's not like he didn't work hard to become a success and still make time to play.


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## MikeinLA (Jul 25, 2006)

I recall when the purchase of L & A was announced, I was a little stunned. These guys meet at a boat show and they're going to buy the mag, buy back the Lost Soul, let Bob & Jody sail around the world and write articles. My first thought was that these guys must have incredibly deep pockets. Now it appears that they were just scamming everybody. Just a shame.

Mike


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## hcmisfit61 (May 11, 2011)

Doing an internet search on DJ Doran and Joe Morales came up with, what I can only say, were a couple of guys who were trying the quickest way to make a fast buck to pay for their cruising.
A failed LLC in the State of Washington called Sabre from 2007-2009; what appears to be an online "magazine" and website for gay cruisers called bluq that, from what I can tell, never really went anywhere. A company called Sextant Publishing that didn't seem to have any "publishing" connected to it until the deal with Lats and Atts came through. As late as July 2011, they had blogged on their sailing blog that they were planning a world cruise. Why would they be planning a world cruise when they had so much "business" going on?
I think, maybe, business records for these two for the past five years need to be examined closely. I see "red flags" all over the place for financial trouble, spur of the moment decisions and instability even before the Lats and Atts deal.....and, yes, this is my own personal opinion from what I've researched on these two solely from the internet.


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## bvander66 (Sep 30, 2007)

smackdaddy said:


> Bingo. It's time had come and gone. And there are precious few ad dollars flowing around right now.


I dont agree. I am not a fan of Hunter sailboats, but would sad should they disappear. Why?, because they are part of the sailing community. Weather you like or dislike the magazine, it means one less source of info, one less publication which promotes sailing. 
I believe the magazine "living aboard" was also taken over by Seafaring a few years ago, so that mag is likely also gone.

Not an event which should be cheered by sailors IMHO, whether you love or hate the magazine.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

bvander66 said:


> I dont agree. I am not a fan of Hunter sailboats, but would sad should they disappear. Why?, because they are part of the sailing community. Weather you like or dislike the magazine, it means one less source of info, one less publication which promotes sailing.
> I believe the magazine "living aboard" was also taken over by Seafaring a few years ago, so that mag is likely also gone.
> 
> Not an event which should be cheered by sailors IMHO, whether you love or hate the magazine.


I don't think anyone is cheering, merely giving reasons why it became commercially unsustainable and/or why its time had passed.

For mine I care not if it survived or not but if some folk want to read it then hey, that's OK by me. Even if the new owners were somewhat dodgey had L&A been making money I doubt they would have cut and run. Not as if they bled it dry, by the sounds of things their was not much cash in that particular cow.

L&A began on the smell of an oily rag. If it is a valid business model then it should not be all that difficult for BB & J to resurrect the thing. Capital involved not large though as a start up it would presumably be on a more modest scale than it was at the end. It might well be profitable enough to support a cruising lifestyle but I doubt it would be profitable enough to buy the boat itself and I don't mean the Shannon, more Lost Soul II.


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## Justapersona (Oct 25, 2010)

Sounds like the next question is... so who's going to step up and fill the niche? LatsNAtts was special. Let's not not have something special.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

bvander66 said:


> I dont agree. I am not a fan of Hunter sailboats, but would sad should they disappear. Why?, because they are part of the sailing community. Weather you like or dislike the magazine, it means one less source of info, one less publication which promotes sailing.
> I believe the magazine "living aboard" was also taken over by Seafaring a few years ago, so that mag is likely also gone.
> 
> Not an event which should be cheered by sailors IMHO, whether you love or hate the magazine.


I'm not necessarily cheering, bv. I'm just saying that the L&A angle is over...like Tupperware. Think about it...who is the "Lowrider" audience these days? Dudes that trailer their Hogs to Sturgiss and pretend they're bad-asses for a weekend. It's all pretend. The Easy Rider era is way gone.

This same pretense, the zeitgeist of L&A, fell out of sailboating far more quickly than it has with bikes because of the cost and work involved. You can't trailer your 50' Shannon to St. Thomas for a weekend of badassery...even if 3-5 of the breasts _are_ still perky.

Sailing in general is becoming something far different...more sophisticated. I honestly think it's on the brink of a bit of a resurgence. And, though I can't quite put my finger on what it will look like yet, L&A definitely wasn't "hip" to it.


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## Skip Wiley (Jun 21, 2012)

tdw said:


> I don't think anyone is cheering, merely giving reasons why it became commercially unsustainable and/or why its time had passed.


Ad revenue was actually up close to 9 percent this year ... commercially unsustainable, huh?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Skip Wiley said:


> Ad revenue was actually up close to 9 percent this year ... commercially unsustainable, huh?


In a vacuum, that doesn't mean much. If I sold two lemonades at the end of my driveway last year and sold three this year, my revenue would be up 50%. I would not, however, be sustainable.

L&A had a following for sure.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

L&A was not a mag I subscribed to, but I am not going to dance on it's grave either. I'm kinda hoping it is reborn in some fashion. Yeah, the content was sometimes laughably amateurish, but everyone was having fun.
Ain't that what this is all about? If I want articles about boats I cannot afford and pictures about immaculate people with perfect breasts and spotless boats, or grim expressions from under the hood of the foulweather jacket with yet another 40' breaker looming over the transom, there are lots of magazines i can choose from.

I venture that Lats and Atts has done more to get the average cruiser off the couch and on the water than Cruising World and Sail.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

bljones said:


> ... I am not going to dance on it's grave either.....


Me either, it just wasn't my thing.



> ..... immaculate people with perfect breasts and spotless boats....


Sign me up for a lifetime subscription


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Minnewaska said:


> In a vacuum, that doesn't mean much. If I sold two lemonades at the end of my driveway last year and sold three this year, my revenue would be up 50%. I would not, however, be sustainable.


That's because you were such a tight ass with the sugar. That stuff was swill!


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> That's because you were such a tight ass with the sugar. That stuff was swill!


It wasn't lemon either....


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Minnewaska said:


> It wasn't lemon either....


Classic.


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## swampcreek (Feb 14, 2010)

I asked my Wife about our subscription, she said it was up for renewal and she forgot about it, I said good girl don't re-up. I didn't exactly wait at the mailbox to read it cover to cover every month but I enjoyed having it around. The use of the word "kewl" did make my skin crawl but there were plenty of good things about that magazine that I enjoyed.

Although BB was a little left of my politics I liked using him as an example when people would ask how a biker and former power boater (refering to me) could turn to sail? I'd respond that the need and expense to fuel engines is too limiting for the size, amount of time or possible distance I like to boat, then I'd tell them about BB, then I tell them the top reason...it's a helluva lot of fun!


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## swampcreek (Feb 14, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> It wasn't lemon either....


That's the funniest thing I heard all day!:laugher


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## cruisingdream (Feb 7, 2007)

Speaking of subscriptions I just got a renewal letter in the mail today, The big question is if the mail is that slow or that someone who still holds the keys to the PO box is trying to fleece more people out of their money.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Skip Wiley said:


> Ad revenue was actually up close to 9 percent this year ... commercially unsustainable, huh?


Well something sure as hell went wrong. Even if you are a complete and utter crook you do not close down a profitable business in that manner. Did the new owners (NOs) bleed the company dry living the high life and squandering the companies assets ? From what I've read thus far the piggy bank was pretty much empty to begin with, dare I say it because of BBs drive to build the new boat. Now maybe he thought that the magazine could pay for that dream, my guess is largely through contra deals, but whatever the reason the place was not up to producing that kind of revenue.

Now again, I am guessing. Nothing more because I have no insider information but to an outsider it looks to me as if the NOs took this on thinking that it was more profitable than it really was and having realised that was not the case they cut and ran. A very poor way of dealing with the situation yes indeed and they should be condemned for their actions but I'm sticking with my theory that they simply realised the business model was unsustainable. Remember of course, that even if revenue was up by 9% costs would also have undoubtedly risen and the NOs would have also had to factor in whatever they would need to pay BB and J plus the costs associated with leasing back the old boat.


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

tdw said:


> it looks to me as if the NOs took this on thinking that it was more profitable than it really was and having realised that was not the case they cut and ran. A very poor way of dealing with the situation yes indeed and they should be condemned for their actions but I'm sticking with my theory that they simply realised the business model was unsustainable.


Given what happened to a couple of friends of mine who recently sold their businesses, I find this quite (albeit surprisingly) plausable. Both of my friends were selling their businesses because they felt the market for their services was tanking (one of the businesses was a local photo processing facility), and they wanted out before they went under. Both businesses were bought by seemingly intelligent people who did a great deal of research on stability, cash flow and market conditions. Both businesses failed within a year of the sale. I must admit, I just don't get it.

And let's not forget that whatever blind spot the NO had on the business end of things had to be magnified by the "boat" factor. Everything related to boating is by definition a "bad investment"; we stay involved because we love it, not because it is a cost-effective recreational activity. I would be surprised if the NO's analysis of the L&A business outlook wasn't significantly colored by his love of boating and cruising.

I don't know enough about what happened to assign blame here; in my experience, there's usually enough to go around for all. I do feel badly for Bob and Jody. I met Bob briefly at the Miami Boat Show one year, and thought he was a hoot. And as I mentioned before, I found the editorial content and thrust of the mag to be a breath of fresh air.

I hope that Bob and Jody bounce back.


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## Allen-deckard (Jul 26, 2011)

Dont forget that they had advertisers pay 3 months in advance the last month then never printed the mag. They also stiffed the printer for three months prior never paying them then got a new printer and stiffed them. On top of that they never payed the staff and didnt pay bb for the mag tobegin with nor did they pay the owner of the lost soul for its use.

So i really dont care what they walked into the deal with they took in advertising money for 6 months and another 3 months after that from willing advertisers.

At this point bb couldnt restart the mag if he got it back simply because they ran up insane bills with vendors and bailed the bills would follow the mag.

Im goimg to miss the mag and gonna miss liveaboard mag as well honestly they were the last two sailing magazines i enjoyed reading. As someone else stated i really have no desire to read about stories and boats that i have no way of ever owning. Unless so eone can direct me to anither magazine that has articles destinations and boats that the average person can or might be able to afford ill sub to it. Lat wasnt the best written mag honestly but at least the contributors i felt like i could relate to.

Oh well its a moot point the mag is gone wont come back because of months of back bills allong withit cruising mag went with it down the toilet since they folded the two together a couple months before. At this poimt i have no subs to anything guess ill just have a little extra money in my pocket.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Allen-deckard said:


> Dont forget that they had advertisers pay 3 months in advance the last month then never printed the mag. They also stiffed the printer for three months prior never paying them then got a new printer and stiffed them. On top of that they never payed the staff and didnt pay bb for the mag tobegin with nor did they pay the owner of the lost soul for its use.


Point taken, from all that we have seen thus far the NOs appear to be scumbags but I don't know if they set out to deceive. Hey, maybe they did but I cannot figure out why. I wish I knew how much advertising revenue L&A took in each month it would give a better perspective but as a deliberate con, if it was a deliberate con they sure as hell aimed low.

I'm reminded somewhat of that old joke with the punchline "We have established what you are, madam. We are now merely haggling over the price." If I was to rip you off i'd at least want to do it for a decent sum of money.

I do feel sorry for BB and J but the whole thing has an air of desperation about it. Commission the building of a big expensive yacht when you don't have the cash to pay for it then default losing both boat and whatever you have already poured into it ? Sell the magazine with no money upfront ? Lease your boat to someone with no money up front ? Pay advertising three issues in advance ? Print a magazine when you are already owed two months back ? Print a magazine for a new customer with no money up front ?

Hey, I know things are tough out there but every one of those decisions has the word DUMB stencilled across its forehead.

So that why my guess is at it is. The NOs didn't have any capital to begin with and thought they could be cashflow positive right from the start while BB and J were desperate to escape their own financial meltdown. (see above under DUMB). When they realised they had well and truly cocked up and had zero chance of pulling it off they, the NOs, sleazed their way out as best they could but I betcha there was not much in the tank when they did. As a further guess, the advert money in advance went to pay the printers bills from four and five months back.


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## Allen-deckard (Jul 26, 2011)

I think the crappiest part of it in my opinion is the fact they locked up the building emptied it WITH all the office personels personal stuff in there. Add to that from what i understand they hadnt made payrole for some time.

I also find it odd that on there personal blog website they talk over and over about taking there circumnavagation as soon as they got enough money put together. That may just be dreams as everyone does but its still seems odd. Oh well.. 

I dont know the details on the deal bb was getting from the deal but im wondering ifmit wasnt something like he didnt really sell it per se but something like hed get a paycheck do what he limed cruise and write his little articles and do the shoes while the new guy runs the show and bb is like a silent partner or something.....thats just me thinking outloud.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Unless BB had a dope for an attorney, he should be able to get license back on the brand for default of payment, but not have to take the corporation back to do it (ie, it's liabilities).

He would need the capital to start from scratch. I think the bigger problem is that the mag seemed like it was marginal to begin with and rebuilding marginal would take a lot of enthusiasm.


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## Kyhillbilly (Jun 14, 2011)

Just wanted to say, "one of my favorite sail magazines" had more of a real life aspect to it for me. Not a die hard boater by no means but out of all them I enjoyed Latts and Atts the most. Still have This Old Boat keeping the dream alive.


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## TomandKarens34 (Dec 4, 2007)

TDW has the best angle I've seen . I think he's about right. Latts and Atts isn't the only glossy mag in my magazine rack, that is no longer published. Perhaps Bob and crew can do something on the net, but glossy mags are dinosaurs.


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## Allen-deckard (Jul 26, 2011)

Got an email yesterday they are indeed going to be doing a new internet endeavor apparently it will be free i for one will be looking forward to it.


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

last email i got was soliciting for funding. 


is definitely time for a change-is there enough money in this world for folks to be opportunizing off cruisers and wannabe cruisers??? is this truly where the big bux are????

if it is, why the need to solicit for funding for a magazine when the last effort went south for whatever reason and boats lost for whatever reason -- funding--and such??? is he gonna make enough dough soliciting funding to gain a cruiser again????
does this not sound like a soap opera?????

IS TIME FOR A CHANGE


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## johnweb (Oct 29, 2011)

It made me laugh more than once. It lost some of it's appeal over the years but was still worth cruisen through. Best of luck to the crew.


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## johnweb (Oct 29, 2011)

pulled out my old copies of easy rider and found a picture of there complaint dept.
looked an awful lot like BB 35-40 years ago.


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## drunkinsailor (Oct 9, 2012)

I hear there is a lot more to the story than what BB has been putting out there... someone told me ther is a website that has more details but I havent been able to find it... anybody have any ideas?


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

drunkinsailor said:


> I hear there is a lot more to the story than what BB has been putting out there... someone told me ther is a website that has more details but I havent been able to find it... anybody have any ideas?


Personally I think it is obvious what happened. Bob was lucky and got out, and sold to an investor who did not know what they were getting into and once he saw the writing on the wall, bailed. There is a future in print, and I think Good Old Boat is a model that can work. Low costs, so low subscription numbers can be supported. Big glossy magazines are not really going to work unless you are catering to big dollar advertisers like Sail Magazine.

As Zee says there is not a lot of money to be squeezed from what remains of the cruising world.


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## theonecalledtom (Jan 2, 2008)

smackdaddy said:


> Sailing in general is becoming something far different...more sophisticated. I honestly think it's on the brink of a bit of a resurgence. And, though I can't quite put my finger on what it will look like yet, L&A definitely wasn't "hip" to it.


This comment caught my eye.

On one level I get the feeling that lots of interesting things are happening - for example boats like the AC45s are exciting enough to watch even for the layman.

At the same time the marinas in San Diego are noticably empty and most of the other boats don't go out much.


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## oldragbaggers (Dec 6, 2005)

What's the magazine of today for cruisers who are just plain folk on real budgets (not boat bums, but not wealthy either) who want a down to earth magazine, with real information and articles, geared toward the simple adventurous life? Does that even exist anymore?

My husband and I have been dreaming of the cruising life for 30 years. We had figured to be retired by now, but life (kids, grandkids, other twists and turns) conspired to keep us grounded a while longer. But throughout all these years we have been active sailors and have lived aboard several boats. So we know we are ready. The day we cut the dock lines is within sight. But in the meantime good cruising reads keep the fire fueled during the cold Chesapeake winter.

We have been subscribers to Cruising World, Sail, Chesapeake Bay (we live there), Good Old Boat, Lats & Atts, Wooden Boat and various others over the years. 

Cruising World used to be our go-to magazine, but now it seems to be nothing but slick cover to cover advertisements for boats and gear that no normal person (or at least WE) could ever afford. The actual cruising articles are few and far between, and again usually written by people cruising on a boat and/or budget out of the reach of most people. 

Sail is usually a lot about racing and, again, very expensive toys for very wealthy people. There's usually one or two decent articles, but it's best feature this month was the 20% off coupon for Harbor Freight. 

I used to read every word on those two magazines, cover to cover, like I was reading from the Bible every month. Now I can get through one in 15-20 minutes tops.

Good Old Boat is nice, but a little pricey for what you get and after a subscribing for a number of years it seems like it's the same fixer-upper articles, just done on different boats. It's best feature is bringing to the attention of those looking for a potential cruiser boats that maybe they hadn't heard of or considered.

I too got bored with Lats & Atts (honestly, middle aged people using the word "kewl" ???) after a few years, but at least it was normal people and showed the earthy side of things.

How I miss the real cruising stories written by the likes of the Pardy's, Hal Roth, Eric Hiscock and the like. People on simple (but usually meticulously maintained) boats, using simple systems, living within a budget and cruising with dignity. The ones whose conduct and example made cruisers welcomed guests in the harbors of the world.

So, again I ask, what are the cruisers reading now??

Becky


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## MikeinLA (Jul 25, 2006)

Becky, lately I find myself re-reading and enjoying a lot of the books by some of the authors you mentioned and others. Try that. 

Mike


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

theonecalledtom said:


> This comment caught my eye.
> 
> On one level I get the feeling that lots of interesting things are happening - for example boats like the AC45s are exciting enough to watch even for the layman.
> 
> At the same time the marinas in San Diego are noticably empty and most of the other boats don't go out much.


I think you're right on it with the AC45s. The ACWS is poised to bring sailing much more toward the mainstream.

But then you also look at the young sailors trying to break the RTW records. It's on the radar of a new generation.

The "adventure" of stailing is coming back. At the same time, it's not here yet. And the mass of boats that are out there are laregely rotting away is because they belong to older people who watched "The Dove" but then lost the mojo.

Sailing oin the US is coming back...slowly. And it will be interesting to see what it looks like with the next generation.


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

Becky, 
I agree with you most of the sailing mag's have gone commercial - and you can't blame them as they are for profit. 
At the same time the level of writing and reporting has gone downhill and budgets have been cut. I used to get all the mag's - and overtime got tired of seeing a rehash of the same reviews of the same boats/gear in every one of them.

Try blogs. None of them will win a prize for writing (well maybe mine will), but they tell the stories of the people who are out there doing it. Most of them are just simple folk writing for a primary audience of family and friends. They keep it real. 

What you do to find these blogs is look in the signature line of folks here, then look at the links they have for other's blogs, and a domino effect eventually gets you to some good reading.


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## oldragbaggers (Dec 6, 2005)

MikeinLA said:


> Becky, lately I find myself re-reading and enjoying a lot of the books by some of the authors you mentioned and others. Try that.
> 
> Mike


Funny you suggest that. I am currently reading "Two on a Big Ocean" by Hal Roth. It reminds me why we had the dream in the first place.


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## oldragbaggers (Dec 6, 2005)

Thanks ChucklesR, that is an excellent suggestion.


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## HBar50 (Sep 20, 2009)

oldragbaggers said:


> What's the magazine of today for cruisers who are just plain folk on real budgets (not boat bums, but not wealthy either) who want a down to earth magazine, with real information and articles, geared toward the simple adventurous life? Does that even exist anymore?
> 
> My husband and I have been dreaming of the cruising life for 30 years. We had figured to be retired by now, but life (kids, grandkids, other twists and turns) conspired to keep us grounded a while longer. But throughout all these years we have been active sailors and have lived aboard several boats. So we know we are ready. The day we cut the dock lines is within sight. But in the meantime good cruising reads keep the fire fueled during the cold Chesapeake winter.
> 
> ...


I do not read any of the US sailing rags anymore for the same reasons....try Yachting Monthly and Practical Boat Owner from the UK. Lots of good information that is not a thinly disguised advert.


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## swampcreek (Feb 14, 2010)

We just subscribed to Good Old Boat, it has some interesting articles and is aimed at "normal" budgets, we also like Practical Sailor a lot. We get Sailing due to our ASA membership but we're not in the market for a 5M racing machine. We just sold our 1993 Macgregor (LOVED THAT BOAT!) and bought a 2000 Catalina 320 which we are learning and constantly being amazed with but walking the piers I notice that even at 12 years old (really 13) the vast majority of boats are older than ours. So maybe a magazine like "Good But Not So Old Boat" might work. I guess there are so many different styles, ages and owner income levels that there would be no one size fits all. BUT although we did enjoy L&A's and really liked the readers pictures section (I guess BB play off In The Wind in Easyrider Magazine) did I'd wince and cringe everytime I read "kewel".


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

swampcreek said:


> We just subscribed to Good Old Boat, it has some interesting articles and is aimed at "normal" budgets, we also like Practical Sailor a lot. We get Sailing due to our ASA membership but we're not in the market for a 5M racing machine. We just sold our 1993 Macgregor (LOVED THAT BOAT!) and bought a 2000 Catalina 320 which we are learning and constantly being amazed with but walking the piers I notice that even at 12 years old (really 13) the vast majority of boats are older than ours. So maybe a magazine like "Good But Not So Old Boat" might work. I guess there are so many different styles, ages and owner income levels that there would be no one size fits all. BUT although we did enjoy L&A's and really liked the readers pictures section (I guess BB play off In The Wind in Easyrider Magazine) did I'd wince and cringe everytime I read "kewel".


Yea the thing with fiberglass, if it is well taken care of it will last almost indefinitely. Many of the first fiberglass boats are still around. Granted they overbuilt a bit as it was "new" back then, but given no accidents and well maintained there is no reason why a fiberglass boat can't last 100 years. So a boat magazine that really caters to older boats does seem to work well. Especially if you have reader created content like GOB I don't know the going rate for an article in a fancy magazine, but I am sure it is a fraction of what GOB pays. They also don't seem to play the giveaway price game for subscriptions just to get numbers to show advertizes. I get about 20 magazines a week that I don't pay for. I got on a list and when a subscription number drops they start sending them out for free.

I like practial sailor as well, but I wonder how they are doing. They seem to have really dropped the subscription price and I think they claim they pay for everything they test. That seems to put a limit on what they can do and be profitable.


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

the publishing world is a mess. newsweek just announced they are ending the print mag and will be online only.
newspapers & magazines are fighting a tough battle. They're loosing readers to forums like this, blogs, e-books, etc. So the spiral is picking up speed. And the pay isn't much for even the best writers, so they're looking elsewhere for work. online advertising isn't working well enough to keep the traditional publishing model going. facebook cratered because there's no revenue. google stock dropped because they can't monetize android/iphones very well.


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## canadianseamonkey (Sep 4, 2006)

Xort you are so right and what you said is exactly the truth. Anybody who is getting into the publishing business today is going to lose his shirt. When I received the email from Bob and Jody about prepaying my yearly subscription to their NEW magazine, I delete the email right away. Only fools would send them money in advance. Did they publish yet?

It's a messed up world we sail in.


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## flyingriki (Sep 27, 2012)

knuckledragger said:


> Article on todays "Lectronic Latitudes"
> 
> Latitude 38 - 'Lectronic Latitude


Latitude 38, and Spindler in particular, have always had a woodie on for Bob. Guess they just had to get in some final licks......! 

Here is another view of the situation:
http://cruisingoutpost.com/2012/10/inglorious-latitudes-attitudes/


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## swedeish cedar (Jan 20, 2012)

I already looked at the "NEW" website--- the mouths and attitudes seem to be out of a low rent dive in the bad part of town. Some of the posters seem to be re-hashing the civil war---others seem to be trying out the crudest words
and concepts from the dark ages. All in all unless the market goods are hate speech and ignorance I can't see someone paying for the bandwidth and server space to keep that brand of funk around.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

swedeish cedar said:


> I already looked at the "NEW" website--- the mouths and attitudes seem to be out of a low rent dive in the bad part of town. Some of the posters seem to be re-hashing the civil war---others seem to be trying out the crudest words
> and concepts from the dark ages. All in all unless the market goods are hate speech and ignorance I can't see someone paying for the bandwidth and server space to keep that brand of funk around.


I don't know how much bandwidth do they need? There are only like 10 people on the web site. :laugher:laugher


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## CaptainQuiet (Nov 19, 2012)

I will miss the community feel and the photo section of Latt and Ads the most. 
I haven't seen any good answers to the question of what are cruisers are reading? 
My idea for the next mag would be a kind of hybrid between Practical Sailor and Cruising World - any publishers out there want to make that happen?


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## kwaltersmi (Aug 14, 2006)

CaptainQuiet said:


> I haven't seen any good answers to the question of what are cruisers are reading?


I'm a huge supporter of blogging and independent websites. I find that the content is usually more genuine and topical and almost always more timely. If you're familiar with the editorial staffs at any of the major magazines and their contributors, you know that most are also bloggers anyway.


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## CaptainQuiet (Nov 19, 2012)

chucklesR said:


> Becky,
> 
> What you do to find these blogs is look in the signature line of folks here, then look at the links they have for other's blogs, and a domino effect eventually gets you to some good reading.


Chuckles or anyone, 
I'm a bit slow on this one. Not sure what signature line to follow to get the bloggers name and info. Can anyone kick start me on this?


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

CaptainQuiet said:


> Chuckles or anyone,
> I'm a bit slow on this one. Not sure what signature line to follow to get the bloggers name and info. Can anyone kick start me on this?


Many Sailnetters who have a blog put a link at the bottom of their posts here in the forum. Click to follow the link and then look around their blog for a menu item that is usually titled "Links" or "Favorites" or something that indicates a list of other links.


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## LeMerovingian (Jan 9, 2013)

Hello, 

What was this website a sales magazine? Were the owners regulars on this here forum? 

"Smack Daddy" blasted you in my other thread hope it gives you an early morning chuckle.......,


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

LeMerovingian said:


> Hello,
> 
> What was this website a sales magazine? Were the owners regulars on this here forum?
> 
> "Smack Daddy" blasted you in my other thread hope it gives you an early morning chuckle.......,


So, ahm, Lemer, dude, do I know you? Where exactly did I blast _anyone_ "in your other thread"?

Focus, baby, focus.


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## LeMerovingian (Jan 9, 2013)

No, I insulted you in another posting but it was intended to be in good humor...... but I see you're a veteran here. You wouldn't happen to know the members that owned the magazine by any chance? I haven't gone through this thread......,


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Oh. I guess I've not seen said "insult". And no way in hell I'm digging around for it.

As for L&A - you gotta do your homework, man.

Later.


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## LeMerovingian (Jan 9, 2013)

Looks like someone woke up on the wrong side of the dock........, Just asked figured you would know didn't ask to do ant quote on quote "digging,work,spying,private investigating" I believe I found a lead just wait to be able to PM.

Drink your coffee enjoy your wisdom


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

LeMerovingian said:


> No, I insulted you in another posting but it was intended to be in good humor...... but I see you're a veteran here. You wouldn't happen to know the members that owned the magazine by any chance? I haven't gone through this thread......,


Well the magazine was started by Bob Bitchin, aka Robert Lipkin. The magazine was bought out by "sextant publishing" headed by a DJ Doran.

a .1 second Google search resulted in the following, the last link has lots of good info on upset customers and investors:

Pacific Northwest Boating News: Lats & Atts magazine shuts down | Three Sheets Northwest

what happned

Sextant Publishing


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## LeMerovingian (Jan 9, 2013)

Hey, Boss! thanks for taking the time I actually sent them an email a few days ago but the accounts are dead but I overlooked the publishing buy out I'll give them a shot almost feel like sending you a pay pal donation......., Can you do just let me Google that for you link ? hah!


You made my day skipper, thank you again!


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

Let me google that for you


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

LeMerovingian said:


> Looks like someone woke up on the wrong side of the dock........, Just asked figured you would know didn't ask to do ant quote on quote "digging,work,spying,private investigating" I believe I found a lead just wait to be able to PM.
> 
> Drink your coffee enjoy your wisdom


I didn't really follow any of that...but...you're welcome I guess.


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## Staredge (Jun 6, 2013)

I hate to see it gone. It was one of the few sailing magazines that I'd pick up and read, for many of the same reasons that have been listed. I can't post the link, but there is a website called The Inglorious Demise of Latitudes and Attitudes that seems to be Doran's side of the story.


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## BentSailor (Nov 10, 2010)

Wow, that site (along with the email chains to back up the claims) really does cast the whole drama in a new light.

I'm always suspicious when only one side of the story is spread via social media (let's face it, there was *a lot* of that in the wake of the L&A closure), this additional info shows that instinct to have merit


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## Staredge (Jun 6, 2013)

Well, there are three sides to every story: mine, yours, and the truth. Don't know that the real truth will ever come out. Again, sad to see it happen.


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## BentSailor (Nov 10, 2010)

Oh, I agree 100%. I reckon a reasonable facsimile of the truth might come out in a lawsuit should one go forward (and there are some intimations towards such a possibility). Probably wouldn't see the light of day though. I've seen enough lawsuits settle precisely because of the reputation hit certain evidence being on the record would entail.

It is sad to see it happen, but it _*is*_ good to see another side to the story.


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