# Anchor swivels... yea or nay?.. and how?



## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

Mod note..the discussion below was 'drifted into' on a thread on generators. I've moved the swivel posts to this dedicated thread here..

Ron/Faster

hey, this is wrong....









swivel does not go on the anchor side!!!!! You dont even need one. Please take it off, for your sake.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

*Re: generator a good idea?*



UnionPacific said:


> hey, this is wrong....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think you probably meant to say "shackle pin", no?

If so, you're right about that...


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

*Re: generator a good idea?*

Swivels are a very dangerous and unnecessary item to have on your anchor.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

*Re: generator a good idea?*



UnionPacific said:


> Swivels are a very dangerous and unnecessary item to have on your anchor.


Well, I don't like swivels, either...

I misunderstood your intent, I suppose, in assuming you were also trying to point out that the anchor shackle was on 'backwards'...


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

*Re: generator a good idea?*



UnionPacific said:


> hey, this is wrong....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Does that connect to the generator?

Funny, there are some that would rather have generators used as anchors, but they don't have a lot of holding power.

Regards,
Brad


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

*Re: generator a good idea?*



UnionPacific said:


> hey, this is wrong....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Huh? I think you mean the swivel should not connect to the anchor which it does not in this setup. There is an anchor shackle connected to both ends of the swivel to eliminate any side loading on the swivel if the chain changes direction from the original set.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

*Re: generator a good idea?*



JonEisberg said:


> ...I misunderstood your intent, I suppose, in assuming you were also trying to point out that the anchor shackle was on 'backwards'...


OK, I'm man enough to admit that I still have a lot to learn about anchor technique. So what direction is the shackle supposed to go? Sounds like the screw-in clevis pin should be through the chain, not through the anchor shank, right? And the engineer in me has to ask: what unacceptable stresses result from putting it on backwards?

And I also know that the pin should be secured with seizing wire so it does not work its way loose, right?


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

*Re: generator a good idea?*



TakeFive said:


> OK, I'm man enough to admit that I still have a lot to learn about anchor technique. So what direction is the shackle supposed to go? Sounds like the screw-in clevis pin should be through the chain, not through the anchor shank, right? And the engineer in me has to ask: what unacceptable stresses result from putting it on backwards?
> 
> And I also know that the pin should be secured with seizing wire so it does not work its way loose, right?


You can take the swivel straight out. one shackle, not sure about where the pin goes, but I can imagine the pin may be forced to turn if its in the shank and not on the chain?


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## Delezynski (Sep 27, 2013)

*Re: generator a good idea?*

TAKE A LOOK at;
Anchor Swivels: Keep Your Boat Safe by Using them Correctly | Sail Magazine

Greg


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

*Re: generator a good idea?*



TakeFive said:


> OK, I'm man enough to admit that I still have a lot to learn about anchor technique. So what direction is the shackle supposed to go? Sounds like the screw-in clevis pin should be through the chain, not through the anchor shank, right? And the engineer in me has to ask: what unacceptable stresses result from putting it on backwards?
> 
> And I also know that the pin should be secured with seizing wire so it does not work its way loose, right?


Yup, the bow of the shackle goes thru the anchor, the pin thru the chain... In fact, absent the use of a swivel, that's the only way a shackle _CAN_ be attached to anything other than a massively oversized chain. Unless you employ TWO shackles, I suppose...

The potential for eccentric side loads that can attempt to 'pry apart' the jaws of a swivel, or a shackle, is the primary reason you want to avoid running the pin thru an anchor...

Just my opinion, of course... Others will no doubt argue that it makes little difference... But there are a number of seasoned sailors who believe there's a right way, and a wrong way...

Peter Smith is one, and he knows a thing or two about anchoring... 



> Some anchors will not accept the head of an adequately sized shackle, being designed for the pin instead. This necessitates the use of two shackles, connected body-to-body with each other, and the pins through the anchor and the chain respectively. This is less than elegant, and doubles the chance of a shackle failure - well designed anchors, including the Rocna, have an elongated rode attachment point through which the shackle head can pass.
> 
> Shackles (Rocna Knowledge Base)


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

*Re: generator a good idea?*

I'm with Jon.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Personally, I don't think it would make much difference, but I'm old and feeble, so what the Hell do I know. In more than 6 decades on the water, I've never had a shackle failure. Has anyone on this forum had a shackle fail?

Gary


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

travlineasy said:


> In more than 6 decades on the water, I've never had a shackle failure. Has anyone on this forum had a shackle fail?


I think it is swivel failures, not shackle failures, that are the issue.

I have had shackles fail (two I think) in rigging, not in ground tackle.


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## Noelex (Jan 23, 2008)

Well made swivels, correctly attached can be quite safe, but here are some photos of a swivel failing underwater, while in use.

The boat anchored using this swivel only just avoided running aground on a lee shore.

Scary.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

travlineasy said:


> Personally, I don't think it would make much difference, but I'm old and feeble, so what the Hell do I know. In more than 6 decades on the water, I've never had a shackle failure. Has anyone on this forum had a shackle fail?
> 
> Gary


Not me...

However, that doesn't mean I'm gonna run over to West Marine, and replace what I'm using with some Chinese shackle of dubious quality, either...

)


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Jon, I don't think they make shackles in China.  

Gary


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## Delezynski (Sep 27, 2013)

travlineasy said:


> Jon, I don't think they make shackles in China.
> 
> Gary


Or do they just make the kind you wear? 

Greg


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

noelex77 said:


> Well made swivels, correctly attached can be quite safe, but here are some photos of a swivel failing underwater, while in use.
> 
> The boat anchored using this swivel only just avoided running aground on a lee shore.
> 
> Scary.


Another amazing set of pictures! I also note the sheer and utter lack of caternary.... When the wind pipes up there is no caternary.......

Did you warn them their shackle had snapped???


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## Noelex (Jan 23, 2008)

Maine Sail said:


> Another amazing set of pictures! I also note the sheer and utter lack of caternary.... When the wind pipes up there is no caternary.......
> 
> Did you warn them their shackle had snapped???


Yes many times.

The whole process from the first visible crack in swivel to final release took about 1/2 an hour. We pleaded with the skipper to do something about the situation. 
He deemed it a problem that best sorted out after lunch.

It was especially frustrating because there was an onshore wind. So the boat without an anchor was going to drag very rapidly to the beach.

In the end that is exactly what the boat did, but I think our warnings had some effect and the skipper started the motor the instant the swivel snapped, which thankfully prevented him grounding on the beach.

The lack of catenary is very obvious from the photos. The wind was only moderate, but there was a reasonable swell from the onshore wind.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

Noelex:

Hard to tell but, was that swivel stainless steel? Looks like it to me.


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## windnrock (May 27, 2012)

Why do we trust things to work as advertised? Buying a piece of hardware off the shelf, more often than not, we really have no idea about the quality of material or workmanship. Given the possible consequences of failure, why place an additional unknown into the equation? Will a swivel really improve the system? I don't use one mostly because I never felt the need. Are there any reasons to use one that outweigh the possible disadvantages given that failure will likely be catastrophic? 


"I do not live for what the world thinks of me, but for what I think of myself."

JACK LONDON


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Notice, both shackles held up just fine.  Kinda makes you wonder what tinsel strength the swivel was rates at. 

Gary


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

travlineasy said:


> ...tinsel strength...


Now there's a Freudian slip if ever there was one!


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

windnrock said:


> Why do we trust things to work as advertised? Buying a piece of hardware off the shelf, more often than not, we really have no idea about the quality of material or workmanship. Given the possible consequences of failure, why place an additional unknown into the equation? Will a swivel really improve the system? I don't use one mostly because I never felt the need. Are there any reasons to use one that outweigh the possible disadvantages given that failure will likely be catastrophic?


My own feeling is it might depend on the waters you travel. Here on Long Island we have pretty strong tides that move the boat around quite a bit in some places along with sea breezes that happen often in the afternoon. Now imaging what the chain is doing on the bottom as the boat starts swinging. It will roll and twist along the bottom as the boat changes position. Without a swivel that twist in the chain is going to eventually add some stress somewhere. Probably at the shackles or the anchor shank without a swivel in place. Problems develop when the swivel develops a side load but, IMO that happens when it is improperly installed.


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## windnrock (May 27, 2012)

Much of our hardware is manufactured in China. The specs are dead on, machining near perfect....unfortunately the metallurgy is not very good. This is a problem in many industries. However, failure can happen on any piece. Bad luck, a flaw in the casting....
So, why use a swivel? I have never had a problem with my chain or shackles and I try to inspect every time we pick it back up.


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## windnrock (May 27, 2012)

mbianka, I certainly understand the movement of chain on the bottom in currents especially with opposing wind. I've seen boats tie themselves together! That was amusing! What I have not seen is anything that would unduly stress the chain or shackle. I certainly haven't seen everything but we generally dive our anchor when we can and sometimes scuba around an anchorage to see how the neighbors are dug in. It has affected my view of various anchors as well as seeing who actually set theirs. There is just something that bothers me about swivels.


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## olddog60 (Oct 20, 2011)

Just a rookie comment.. always use a short piece of chain between the swivel and the anchor. The helps with side loading and stops some failures. As with all anchor equipment one size up from recommended.


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## Noelex (Jan 23, 2008)

mbianka said:


> Noelex:
> 
> Hard to tell but, was that swivel stainless steel? Looks like it to me.


Yes it was stainless steel.

There are good quality swivels. Install them as has been mentioned with a few links of chain between the swivel and the anchor to reduce the chance of a side load.

Personally I don't use a swivel. Problems without a swivel are very rare, but if the boat does spin the around the same way without the anchor moving you can end up with some twists in the chain. These are not noticable untill you retrieve the anchor. The twists get compressed to last bit of chain between the gypsy and the bottom. If there are enough twists the chain bunches up and cannot be retrieved.

Once the anchor breaks out it will spin around and untwist the chain, but getting a modern anchor to breakout requires a 1:1 scope (or close to it) which cannot be achieved with the winch jamming due to the twisted chain.

However I stress this is not a common problem. Less than one event for each 1000 nights at anchor for me.


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## Subaqua (Jul 14, 2013)

I had one swivel fail as the anchor came over the roller. By the rust I could tell it had been 1/3 broken through earlier. This was on a charter boat in the BVI. after that failure I came to understand that the swivel should actually be replaced annually. I think that is a good idea, and after seeing that failure, that's on my list.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

noelex77 said:


> Yes it was stainless steel.
> 
> There are good quality swivels. Install them as has been mentioned with a few links of chain between the swivel and the anchor to reduce the chance of a side load.
> 
> ...


Interesting that one rarely sees swivels on true voyaging boats... Steve Dashew, for instance, has never once felt the need for a swivel. Beth and Evans on HAWK don't use one... Nor do high latitude specialists like Skip Novak, Peter Smith, John Harries, the list of hugely experienced sailors who avoid the use of swivels just goes on and on... So, then, why do any of us mere mortals find the need for them?



I believe most folks use them for 'convenience', so they don't have to take the trouble to re-orient an anchor that might come up to the roller 'backwards'... Seems to me the increasing use of swivels among sailors is somewhat a trickle-down effect from their initial popularity among powerboaters, who often retrieve anchors by pressing a button on the flybridge, and require an anchor that will be self-stowing...

In my experience, it is extremely rare - even in places like the Bahamas, or an anchorage like Nantucket Harbor, where strong reversing currents exist - that one winds up swinging circles around your hook... Typically, lying to a reversing current involves a succession of 180 degree swings thru the same sector... It will generally take a shift in the prevailing conditions - such as a frontal passage thru the Bahamas - where a reversing current combined with the breeze clocking from S - NE will conspire to result in a boat doing donuts at anchor... Still, I've yet to ever encounter a situation where I thought I needed a swivel, or noticed a problem with twist serious enough that a swivel might have avoided...

The only possible justification I can see for a swivel, is for those who are basically using their ground tackle in lieu of a _mooring_, and who sit in one spot for extended periods, without moving... Most often, such spots where one might choose to do so are gonna be pretty well protected, anyway, and a ground tackle system will be less likely to be tested to the max...

In addition, a swivel should never be used with a combination rode that uses a twisted 3-strand rope, as severe conditions can result in the rope unlaying itself...


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## windnrock (May 27, 2012)

OK, so as I understand it, you put the swivel on then run the chain to the anchor anyway? That certainly makes no sense to me. It would seem you would actually increase loads on the swivel and chain once the chain twists, besides the fact you ran the chain to the anchor anyhow. Again, why bother? 
To describe my anchoring methods and history: I have been living on the hook for three years, use a "modern" pattern anchor (Rocna) as my primary and 350' of 3/8" G7, all chain. Most commonly we use a 4:1 or 5:1 if the weather looks good, 3:1 in tight anchorages. We always back down hard and visually check when practical. This usually results in overall lengths between 30' and 100'. On occasion, with deep water or poor weather we run longer, max so far 275'. I use a bridle with (2) 3/4" three strand legs. If the weather is particularly dirty and the anchorage deep enough, I will run out additional chain aft of the bridle to weigh it down more. We have been in areas with heavy current, in rock, eel and turtle grass, mud, sand, gravel and shells. I have set and recovered our anchor hundreds of times without difficulty or kinking of the chain. Am I just lucky? 
I do use a swivel with our para anchor but that is a very different application. 
I will make my stand and vote nay for swivels on anchors. Just watch, all manner of horror next time I go to retrieve!


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

JonEisberg said:


> Interesting that one rarely sees swivels on true voyaging boats... Steve Dashew, for instance, has never once felt the need for a swivel. Beth and Evans on HAWK don't use one... Nor do high latitude specialists like Skip Novak, Peter Smith, John Harries, the list of hugely experienced sailors who avoid the use of swivels just goes on and on... So, then, why do any of us mere mortals find the need for them?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well said Jon....!


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## windnrock (May 27, 2012)

Ah, affirmation! Thank you Jon Eisberg, thank you Maine Sail! Now I can go back to just worrying about the mega yacht with the tiny, but beautiful, stainless plow parked upwind of us. Time to move.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

JonEisberg said:


> Interesting that one rarely sees swivels on true voyaging boats...


I agree. I don't put myself in the same category as those you listed, Jon, but I have felt no need for a swivel. Even if we do spin a few times retrieving the anchor and washing the chain lets it unwind. I can count on one hand the number of times the anchor has loaded upside down.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Another 'minor player' that has never been able to feel that adding a swivel and its multiple potential failure points to our rode made sense... I do occasionally have to deal with an anchor that has to be 'spun around' to get on the roller, but since I'm still hand-bombing I'm right there to keep an eye on it and it's easy enough to do.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

WRT the marvelous pictures of the shackle actually failing, I can't see what difference it would have made which end was toward the anchor. The metal failed and the "loop" opened, and it would seem that the stresses and failure mode would be identical no matter which way it was installed.

I'm not arguing right way and wrong way here--just saying in _that one case_, it would have failed any way.

Or did I fall asleep and miss something essential in Jerry Rig and Kludge Class?


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

Another reason for the anchor to come up backwards is that it was put on the chain backwards.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-qjrvz1a-y...M/QsoNNUh5Iis/s1600/chain-locker+no+twist.jpg


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

More info on swivels here:

Swivels (Rocna Knowledge Base)

I got tired of having to lift the anchor shank with attached shackle over the roller to get the anchor in position....


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## n7cjv (Feb 2, 2011)

If you must use a swivel, put 6" chain between the swivel and anchor. Orthogonal loads on the anchor shank can result in swivel failure if connected directly to the anchor. I have two friends that lost very expensive anchors in AK with the swivel hooked directly to the anchor. They were lucky that's all they lost....personally, no swivel for me.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

noelex77 said:


> Yes it was stainless steel.
> 
> There are good quality swivels. Install them as has been mentioned with a few links of chain between the swivel and the anchor to reduce the chance of a side load.
> 
> ...


Yeah I thought it was stainless. Personally, I would not use anything stainless below the waterline especially in the anchor rig due to the possibility of crevice corrosion leading to sudden failure. Might have been the possibility here.

I'm still going to stick with the over sized swivel. Without it I also see the possibility of the snubber line being wrapped around the chain as it twists. That's not good either.


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## windnrock (May 27, 2012)

"However I stress this is not a common problem. Less than one event for each 1000 nights at anchor for me."

Less than one event per night? Is that no events or were there percentages of events?


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

I have all chain rode and use a swivel. I don't really understand the hate against them and if one cracks and breaks it isn't really the swivel at fault anymore than if a shackle or chain breaks. Don't blame the swivel for an owners poor inspection practices.


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## windnrock (May 27, 2012)

Don0190 said:


> I have all chain rode and use a swivel. I don't really understand the hate against them and if one cracks and breaks it isn't really the swivel at fault anymore than if a shackle or chain breaks. Don't blame the swivel for an owners poor inspection practices.


Don, I don't hate swivels anymore than the next inanimate object. I am merely of the opinion they are unnecessary. Once you decide that, then the other factors are moot. I do need to inspect my ground tackle regularly but I don't want to worry about inspecting a piece with portions that, in fact, can not be seen. Is the connecting bolt developing a crack inside the swivel? How would you know? When do you replace it? Which brings up the point, I don't spend any money on quality swivels. I would never tell anyone how to anchor their boat. I may however, move, if I am downwind. 
I do find it interesting that both times we have been hit by other boats (dragging, not swivel failure) their first reaction, when they finally came up on deck was, to accuse us (loudly) of somehow drifting upwind and hitting them! 
There are many bigger issues than swivels in anchoring, and just as much disagreement!


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Don0190 said:


> I have all chain rode and use a swivel. I don't really understand the hate against them and if one cracks and breaks it isn't really the swivel at fault anymore than if a shackle or chain breaks. Don't blame the swivel for an owners poor inspection practices.


Not sure what sort of swivel you might be using, but how would you propose to inspect the concealed, internal shaft on any of these popular swivels?










...to prevent this sort of failure?



















As windrock says, I don't think any of us "hate" swivels... Like many others, I simply have never felt the need for one, and don't see the point of introducing what seems to me needless complexity, and an additional point of potential failure into something as elemental as a ground tackle system... Sure, chain and shackles can fail, as well - but you can't configure an anchor rode without them... But there is one way to ensure you'll never have an anchor swivel fail, and that is to forego the use of one, to begin with... 

I don't know of any database that records the respective failure rates of shackles vs. swivels, but it would be my hunch that the latter fail with considerably greater frequency relative to the percentage actually in use... If a Google search is any indication, one for "Anchor swivel failures" will provide you with far more reading material than one for "Anchor shackle failures", and in a search for images, a search under the latter heading turns up very little, but rather quickly becomes 'infected' with pics of swivel failures, instead...

)














































Finally, part of a Wasi Powerball, one of the 'highest quality', most expensive swivels one can buy...










In any event, I certainly hope you are not attaching your swivel directly to your anchor, as has already been noted...

This HT galvanized swivel from ACCO is the only type I carry aboard my boat, it's one of the few that matches the working load of my 1/4 HT chain, and I've always considered it to be one of the more bulletproof of swivels, and one that can be easily inspected... And yet, here's what can happen, when attached directly to the shank of an anchor, or can potentially happen to any shackle, when the pin end is led thru an anchor...


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## Delezynski (Sep 27, 2013)

Something that no one seems to have brought up yet is the Calculation of Failure Probability of a Series system. In the simplest terms, as I understand it, EVERY item you add to the series doubles the possibility of failure.

So if you put a shackle on the anchor to chain, you have a *(NOT real numbers)* failure chance of 1.

Then add a another item, you doubled the possibility of a failure. A number of 2.

Now you add the swivel, you now have a failure rate (again NOT REAL NUMBERS) of 4.

Then, you add the chain to line splice and you are up to 8!

Sure looks like a great argument for KISS!

Greg


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## windnrock (May 27, 2012)

When I started climbing, the first ascenders were Jumars. After a number of years, they had the only history of failure among all that were being produced, mostly due to a cast aluminum handle, misuse and improper loading, yet they remained very popular. We all have our differences of opinions, based on various and unique sets of experience, exposure and desired outcomes. I live on my boat with my wife. We sold our dirt house and so this is all we have. I also have a responsibility for her safety (my own too) as well as the safety of those around us. So I can only ask myself, self, what is the relative added value of a swivel opposed to the possible negatives. Here is my discussion:
Do we sit at anchor long enough to twist up the chain? 
No, we don't.
Do we have any problems loading our anchor? 
No, we don't.
Will we in the future?
Unlikely.
So, can we trust how this part was manufactured?
No, we can't.
Why? 
It involves too many processes and I doubt the manufacturer checks it more than visually.
Ahhhhhh! Can I check it visually?
Not all of it.
Does it have a history of failure?
Yes.
In the event of its failure what could happen?
I could lose everything

In the end, I can only try to limit the possibility of catastrophe, it is always there. I see no reason for me to invite it. That's just my view.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

Jon:

I would never use one of those stainless steel bullet swivels. But, then I'd never use a stainless steel shackle under the water line either. But, they sure do look all shiny and purty.  Perhaps thats why tend to see them on a lot of go fast power boats. I like my swivel and shackles ugly, beefy and galvanized from an American manufacturer.  Never had a galvanized anchor shackle or swivel fail. But, have had two stainless steel shackles let go over the years.


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## windnrock (May 27, 2012)

Stainless is harder and therefore more brittle than mild steel. Failure usually occurs at the anchor connection because that is where the greatest loads occur. If one of the links in your chain is going to break, it is more likely than not going to be the last one at the shackle. Not a good place for stainless. Another benefit of galvanized is that the shackle pin is virtually self retaining. Not that I wouldn't safety wire it, but they don't tend to back out due to the roughness of the galvanizing.


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