# Modern convenience and boat size



## alanr77

I am pretty sure I am not alone in that even though I am happy with my current boat, I always have an eye on what I want next. I think we all can pretty quickly put on paper a list of things that our next boat must have; lessons learned from either minor inconveniences all the way up to the major, like wanting standing headroom. I find myself doing this a lot, especially after watching some of the various cruising blogs out there. Man, some of those people are really living! 
It would seem that over the years, things that people used to think were luxuries have now not only become affordable, but they have become compact and energy efficient as well. I mean, look at how far we have come with things like refrigeration. There are systems out there that are small enough and efficient enough that they can be installed on virtually any small boat and can be for the most part powered by solar energy. If you have a couple dollars, pretty much any boat with a battery can have cold beer. Imagine what some of the early pioneers of the cruising life would think of that. I mean, I was just looking at a combination washer and dryer that can run off a 2000 watt inverter and would actually fit on my 30' boat. Granted, that loss of space would be inconvenient. But if I wanted to have easily cleaned clothes, I could do it. And I could do it for the cost of a few dinners ashore. Unbelievable. 

This brings me into what I wanted to talk about. For me, this is at this time purely hypothetical. But it is something I've been thinking about because it will become relevant with a decade or so. As we all know, sailboats are a compromise. I think we could make a case for the larger the sailboat, the less you compromise; except in the ability to easily handle the boat in less than ideal conditions. Now I know, electrical winches and the sort have made this less of an issue. But I think it is safe to say that simplicity at sea has it's merits. For something as important as sail control, I want the ability to manually do it. Anyone who has wrestled a 150 on the deck of a 30' boat can attest to how difficult that can be. Now imagine that 150 on a 50' boat! 

So what size boat allows you to have most of your cake and yet still allows a single hander or cruising couple to easily handle their boat. Thankfully for now I happen to have a very spacious 30'er. I can and will have things like built in air conditioning at the dock. Things like a reliable water maker. I can fit them and more importantly, fit the systems required to support them. However, I can't fit a separate shower. I can't fit a below deck generator. I can't fit an air compressor to fill scuba tanks. I can't fit my 9'6 dinghy on the foredeck without getting in the way of things. This kind of stuff requires a bigger boat. Now granted, I could fit this stuff if I just bolted it down to the settee or in the V berth but I'm talked about properly securing this equipment in it's own place; and being able to service and conveniently use that equipment. 

One of the blogs I was following had a very nicely outfitted boat with all those things, I think they even had a dishwasher that didn't breath. The boat had a hatch in the cockpit that lifted up and you crawled down into the engine space where all these systems were readily accessible. Very sweet setup. However, the boat was 53' long. To each his own but I do not want to handle a 53' boat all by myself. I don't even see the need for that much boat as a cruising couple. Four staterooms, three heads and six sea berths are unnecessary for two people. Even if you convert one of the staterooms to a shop, you still have too much extra space to collect stuff. Granted, this is my opinion based on what I would need. 

So how do you compromise in this situation. I want my next boat to have a separate shower. I want to be able to fill my scuba tanks on board. Washing clothes and dishes would sure make self sufficiency much easier to handle. Now don't get me wrong, I fully understand the idea of the minimalist sailor and the fact that their time on the water is not spent fixing and maintaining all this extra equipment. One could argue though that their time instead is spent ferrying water cans ten miles or sitting on deck washing clothes in a bucket. While the cruiser with the complicated gear presses a button and then has a drink on deck while their clothes are being washed. I've done the minimalist thing and the older I get, the less I want to do that. Besides, a lot of this extra equipment has become incredibly reliable. Remember when watermakers were almost guaranteed to stop working within a few hours? Properly maintained and regularly used, that is almost a non issue anymore. Besides, if you can afford to have some of this stuff, why not? Even more so if you feel confident that you can fix most of it yourself. 

As most would agree, a cruiser spends most of their time at anchor or tied to a dock. I am at a point in my life where I have the means to make that as comfortable as possible, within reason of course. So, while looking through the ads in my hypothetical boat shopping moment, it seems that in order to get even the first thing on my next boat list I have to jump up to 36'. 36' seems to be where the head transforms from the combicrapwashower room into a proper head and shower. And this even is kinda rare at 36'. So for the sake of this discussion, let's start at 36. Take your standard Catalina 36, a bigger version of what I already have. I get my separate shower but where do you put a generator? Forget the dive compressor. You might be able to install the dishwasher but the washer/dryer will definitely have to be part of the décor'-either in the aft stateroom or somewhere else where it would get in the way. And this is what I meant when I said "properly stored" earlier. To me that means securely installed so it does not move in a sea way, yet installed in a way that I can lift up a hatch and put my clothes into it, press a button and walk away. (with the generator running of course) My idea of a properly outfitted boat, when discussing these comfort and convenience items, is a boat that when you first walk into the cabin, you don't see any of this stuff. You may see the electrical panels that control it but that’s it. To get underway, you just turn it off and close the seacocks, or make sure the dishwasher is empty. On calm island hops, you may not even have to do that. Washing your clothes while motoring a few miles to the next anchorage- all the while topping off your batteries sounds like cruiser heaven to me. This is where my hypothetical search starts running into walls- these kind of conveniences seem to really only start showing up once you cross the 40' mark. 

Or maybe I'm completely wrong. Maybe I could manage to neatly install all this stuff in a 36' boat. If you plan to cruise with only yourself or one other person, 36' gives you plenty of extra space to work with. And, at least within the Catalina line, there is always a ton of wasted space that can be utilized to fit this increasingly small convenience equipment. If you think about how much of the interior space you actually use, modern boats have excess space anyway. I mean, rainy day, if you're not under the dodger, you're either laying in a bunk or sitting at the table. Other than those days, you're in the cockpit, on deck or off the boat. Surely compromises can be made within 36' to accommodate this equipment. Look at a 30' camper, you'll find most of this equipment so why not on a boat? 

Being retired at a fairly young age, I want my cruising experience to be as comfortable as possible. I want little luxuries that make my experience less like work and more like a permanent vacation in a tropical location. To me, that means self sufficiency in as many areas as possible. Parts, food and fuel should be the only time I HAVE to go somewhere. I mean, isn't that what it's all about anyway? 

So, what are your thoughts and experiences regarding my hypothetical meandering? What do you have in your boat that makes life easier and more convenient? What did you give up in order to get it? What equipment have you found to be not worth the hassle? And most importantly to me, what size boat did you finally settle on to have these things? Humor me if you will, but a lot of people talk about how to cruise as a minimalist. What about the pocket cruisers who try to have some of the conveniences found on bigger yachts? Again, purely hypothetical at this time, but I just want to see where this goes and maybe get some good information posted by those doing it so as to help others when they are thinking about how big (or small) a boat they need. AR


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## capecodda

42 is the answer. Read the hitch hikers guide.

Had 22, 28, 36, 52 now 38. If the issue maybe money, but no matter where you lie on the budget spectrum we all get only so much time on this planet. If you go big and automated, you'll be fixing stuff in exotic locations. If you can afford to have someone do it, you'll still be sitting around waiting for them to get parts, and a competent person to do the work. If you do it yourself, you'll still be doing it. All this costs time.

If you go small and simple, you'll be taking showers in your head and drying everything off afterwards, and looking for laundries ashore, but you'll spend less time fixing stuff. This costs convenience, but don't underestimate the frustration when the conveniences you become accustomed to fail. 

Take your house, keep spraying salt water on it sometimes forcibly with a fire hose, and shake it. Even the reliable stuff would break.

My 52 had 3 air conditioners, 2 fridges, separate freezer, 15 water pumps, 4 power winches, power in mast furling, bow thruster, etc., etc........ Nice and comfortable. Never had washing machines or dishwashers, so I cannot speak to that. In 10 years, I don't think I ever had a day when I could say everything on the boat is in working condition. When everything worked it was possible to single hand it and live almost like ashore.

My 38 I can fix everything myself, I can heft sail bags, I can rig it without help, single hand with ease, don't need power winches, bow thrusters...etc. Less stuff to break, less stuff to fix. Little dependence on others when things are too big and heavy to move. More time to sail.

Only you can pick the right tradeoff for you and how you are going to use the boat. I don't know how to say this kindly, but if you've never had a boat with complex big systems on it, you don't know what you don't know about what it takes to keep it running. 

Washing machines, dish washers, power winches, pumps, air conditioners, fridges, generators, engines, power furlers....make life easy till they don't.

Pick a balance point for you, but do it with your eyes wide open.


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## alanr77

Thanks for the perspective. That's exactly where I was hoping this thread would go. After posting I thought about it and felt I should add that to me, the ideal setup would be a pocket cruiser stuffed with the amenities I mentioned. As you stated, 38-42 gives you just enough space for you to accomplish these things. I looked at a Morgan/Catalina 50 and yes, I was impressed by the boat. It had everything I could ever ask for- but nonetheless, it was just too much boat. If I could shrink the living space down to 36-38, it would have been perfect. Totally agree with you regarding everything working at once. My 44' Chris Craft Connie had everything relevant 15 years ago, and it did seem that there was a balance between keeping everything working and actually using it.


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## Erindipity

When I first got into Big Boating, Modern Conveniences were practically unknown. Electronics were getting there, but a Stereo still meant a Boombox. Refrigeration was a 5lb block of Dry Ice. Cooking was an alcohol stove and a case of Dinty Moore. Showers were up at the Marinas, sometimes. First Mate was not impressed.
I'm now on a 29' Beneteau, which is about as large as I can handle alone, and I always plan on handling things alone, even when I have a Crew. I am making some things more convenient, though. She already came with a Jib Furler, and all lines were led aft.

Mod Cons are getting smaller and more efficient. Things like $100 Portable Icemakers were unknown a decade ago. I bought one for my boat, and it's a wonder, although it does make funny noises running off the Inverter. It fits in the cabinet under the sink while sailing.
No need for further refrigeration; when the ice bucket gets full, I top off my drink, and pour the rest into the Cooler.

Surprisingly, this tech is not driven by the Marine Market, but rather the Small House movement. There are now tabletop Washers and Dryers, all coming from China, where living space can be at a premium. There are even tabletop Dishwashers, which are plain silly on a Sailboat.

My Boat's 19" Polaroid LED TV runs off 12VDC. It only draws ~10 Watts at moderate brightness, and stashes under the Settee cushions. It's great, though, for displaying the GPS from my iPad. $90. I will probably replace it eventually with a Projector. On a dark night, I can project... Family Entertainment... on the Mainsail.
Sometimes, rethinking things can eliminate Mod Cons. Cold brewing coffee and tea eliminates the need for a coffeepot, although I still keep my tiny, ancient, $5 Swan Kettle. I brought the small Emerson Microwave home, because I simply didn't end up using it, and I hardly use it at home either. Oats can be cold-brewed too, overnight, with milk, and warmed up in a saucepan in the morning.

Air Conditioning is still an expensive, noisy, bulky, and hungry convenience. But note that the refrigeration parts of the new Portable Icemakers are only the size of a Milk carton. Why Air Condition the whole boat when only localized cooling is needed? There's a market there, somewhere...

There are now hand-held Shower Heads with the pump built in, which eliminates a whole bunch of plumbing. Just drop the end in a bucket of warm water, and shower just about anywhere. Hang a circular Shower Curtain off the boom, to eliminate neighborhood laughter; otherwise, wear earplugs.

Boat Lighting was always a pain, but LEDs have changed all that. It should be changed a lot more. Too much efficiency is lost in the Regulating Circuits built into the Bulbs themselves. This is done because the supplied Voltage changes so much, from a drained House Bank, to that of a rampaging Alternator. The solution is so simple; it could even be a retrofit for Fuse Holders or Breakers. It's called an LDO Regulator. Low Dropout Regulator. Two Bucks Fifty for the One Amp versions, which are just peachy for my needs. A few cheap capacitors are also needed, but they are also needed for the crappy RF Noise created by the current solutions.
LDOs regulate the Voltage at the Source; below ~12VDC, they track the Voltage. Above ~12VDC, they hold the Voltage constant to a ridiculous degree, but they are throwing away the wasted Alternator energy anyway.
Some clever Chap or Chapette should look into this. Get rid of the regulation in the LED Chips, and establish an LED Voltage Standard for Boat LEDs and LDOs, and make... Thousands.

When Frost is forming on the Mainsail Cover, it's time to start thinking about Heating. Four decades back, it was a Lethal Alcohol Heater, basically a small tub filled with Asbestos, and soaked with Stove Alcohol, and then lit.
But the alternative was- shivering in the smelly dark and dank. No wonder so many Sailors simply laid their boats up for the Winter.
I spent the last two Christmas Weeks down on the Boat. For Dockside, I use a terrific little Vornado Heater, set to a sane 375 Watts. It is directional- aimed at the Nav Station during the day, and into the Aft Cabin at night. When it got really cold outside, I put on socks.
Under way, under Power, the old Volvo Diesel radiated enough heat. Under Sail, I occasionally put on Socks.
I should mention Robes here- Target sells their fluffy calf-high version for ~$25, depending on Seasons and Sales. Highly Recommended. I have two on the Boat; one for me, and one for Crew. (If there is ever more than one Crew, they will have to share. I bought Extra Large.)

Well, to wrap up- I downsized to this specific Boat. I can handle it comfortably and in comfort, alone. It has some cutting-edge Tech. There are some Modern Conveniences missing, and rightly so, in my opinion. (I'm not a Hullabaloo- see Ransome.)

But if another First Mate comes along...


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## aeventyr60

Buy a condo. Get a day sailor. You will be way far ahead of the game. Charter a boat in a tropic location once a year. Your gal will be happier too.


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## alanr77

ErinD- Interesting take on it. The small house market along with the trucking industry and RV's have definitely had an influence on smaller and more efficient appliances. As this trickles down to us lowly sailors, it can't be anything but good. I looked at those tabletop washers. Man, 14" x 14" x 19" and you have a self contained unit that burns little power to wash your clothes. Unbelievable. Amazon has them. They even have one that's a little bigger and has a separate dryer, that drys by spinning instead of electrical heat. Do small loads, finish drying them in the sun and for $150 you don't have to smell like old fish and stale rum anymore. I think the company is called Panda. For the price of these things, if it lasts a year I'd be happy. But looking at them, they are very simple machines and I would imagine would be very easy to repair anyway. This is the kind of stuff I'm talking about. I could easily install an access door in my galley next to the refrigerator and fit that washer in there if I wanted. Run the drain hose to the shower sump that gets pumped out automatically and done. That's converting dead space to something usable. Build a small tray with rubber feet, add angle brackets to bolt it down and I imagine you would barely hear it running. 170 watts.....

Amazon.com: Bonus Package Panda Small Mini Portable Compact Washer Washing Machine 5.5lbs Capacity: [email protected]@[email protected]@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/414K1w0Ic%[email protected]@[email protected]@414K1w0Ic%2BL

I'll bet a small inverter would handle this thing without batting an eye.

A60- ? Why would I want a condo and a day sailor? I already have a house,two cars,three boats and two ex wives. I don't see how that would make a month long trip up to the Chesapeake any more convenient- or allow me to wash clothes and fill my scuba tanks while on that trip. I'd rather not charter a boat in the tropics when I could just sail my own boat there. It's already paid for. The gal would be happier if she could have air conditioning at the dock, take a shower without straddling the head and if were really rolling, not have to wash her clothes in a bucket. What conveniences have you installed on your boat? Why did you want them? Or why not? Did you downsize to find something simpler and easier to handle like Cape and ErinD or did you upsize in order to get more amenities?


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## alanr77

Found this as well.

Amazon.com: Panda Small Compact Portable Washing Machine(6-7lbs Capacity) with Spin Dryer: [email protected]@[email protected]@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/[email protected]@[email protected]@41MZvGcZrIL


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## aeventyr60

I guess I just understood for long term cruising recreating all the comforts of home wasn't going to work....mostly from a maintenance point of view...and having to power all those goodies. if you can't fix it or repair it your self, then paradise ain't gonna be what you think it is. We've seen more folks give up because it was just to much work keeping all the stuff to make them comfy working. Yes, you have it all on land, so why not give some of it up? Laundry can be done on land by someone else...or in a 5 gallon bucket, and if your in the tropics you won't be wearing much anyway...and you can pick and chose when you do the laundry anyway, rolling around doing laundry? Ha Ha, you'll be lucky to be rolling in the hay. If your in the tropics, do you need a hot shower? Do you want to spend time and effort cleaning up that micro sized shower stall anyway? Most convert it to a hanging locker or beer storage anyway...Conveniences...a well insulated refrigeration box and a system that makes plenty of Ice for my G & T's. Solar and wind power that provides all the power I need. All the normal electronics, AP, windvane steering...a 24" flatscreen for movies....dive gear, kayak, fishing stuff, golf clubs, mountaineering gear, a few nice clothes..plenty of storage for my gals shoes and the LBD. Yes, I did have a dive compressor, but sold it off as it was really too much of a hassle...

So somewhere between 37 and 42....just big enough so when your gal jumps ship you can singlehand....Someone once told me " A smaller boat and a suitcase full of money"...damn good advice......

Anyway...just go for it. find a boat you like, something for a lifetime....


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## JimMcGee

Alan,
I would start with a realistic assessment of where you want to cruise. Your boat requirements to reach Tonga are VERY different from coastal cruising or island hopping in the Caribbean. 

Living aboard full time also means a LOT of compromises - even if you have all the goodies.

For us the right answer is to move to the Keys when I retire. We'll keep our current boat, which should be fine for local cruising and short hops to the Bahamas. Our boat is a '95 Catalina 30 which works as a day sailer or as a short term live aboard. We can charter in the islands and maybe in the Med. 

For us that's the right balance. If we were spending more time aboard 38-40 feet seems to be a sweet spot. But to be honest I don't see us doing that. Our boat has a bulkhead mounted flat screen, AC, stereo, LED lighting, etc, etc. But after about ten days aboard I'm ready for my own bed.

It's really about what's right for you.

Jim


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## alanr77

Thanks for taking the time to give me more angles to look at. This is exactly why I brainstorm things well in advance. Forums make great sounding boards because you get a perspective from people who don't know you or who don't really have any stake in your experience. Which is exactly why I brought it up. Like I said in the opening post; this is hypothetical at the moment. I'm not saying I want or must have a washing machine. I just want to know what others think about it or if they are using any of this stuff. So far, it would seem that you guys downsized or didn't feel the need to have it in the first place. Though ErinD brought up, and I agree, that things have changed dramatically even over the last couple of years. What I personally had 15 years ago and considered unreliable is now commonplace and extremely reliable and cost effective. Remember when roller furlers were considered unsuitable for offshore work???

A60: That is the way I've always looked at my boat as well. I don't think it's reasonable to expect all the comforts of home anywhere except home. I was more interested in what people are using to make THEIR experience more comfortable. This question would not apply to the person who weekends or goes on evening cruises. That person has a completely different set of priorities than someone who wants to spend weeks at an anchorage. Whether that be around the corner from your marina or 1000 miles from home. I like my current boat. And I'll likely keep it until I find myself no longer willing to do without the things on my next boat list. The misses wants, wishes and concerns are really irrelevant to me as she has her own life and this is, has been and will remain my thing. She includes herself in my travels as little or as much as she wants to. I'm in a unique situation regarding that but it is way off the subject of my thread. Was the dive compressor a PIA because it always broke or because you didn't use it enough to warrant the space taken and maintenance on it? 

Jim: Thanks for your perspective. If my initial post came off as a "should I do this" I must not have written it correctly so I may have to tweak it. That was not my intent nor what I was trying to solicit. I kinda know the answers to some of my own questions because much of it is as you said, whats right for you. I was more looking for other people's experiences with their own boats and whether they tried to add some of these conveniences or not. Or why not. From others people's experiences you can sometimes glean something that makes you think, hmmm. maybe I should approach this from another way because that may not work. So for you, that 30' boat, (nice boat by the way) offers just enough convenience, with AC, to enjoy the time you spend aboard. But if you spent more that a week though, you'd want something bigger. What would it take on board to make you "want your own bed" less? What would make that 38-40 fall into the sweet spot? 

I know for me it was some of the things I mentioned earlier. When I stay out for a week, I don't want to go camping on my boat. If I want to go camping, I'll load a tent on the kayak and go camping. I am not a live aboard. Doubt I'll ever be one. I may end up doing some long term cruising though. I guess what I'm interested in is whats right for you. What would you do to your current boat or what is on your next boat list that would make your boat feel more like home and less like something you camp on? 

The power went out the other night during a storm. It was then that I realized I depended to much on shore power. Now I am going to start finding ways to make the boat more self sufficient and less dependent on the dock. When it's nice and sunny out while at anchor, it doesn't matter as much. But when your buttoned up and the AC power is out....you realize you should have installed an extra 12v fan here or there. Washing clothes is just an example I used to set a boundary at the extreme end of convenience. To me, somewhere in the middle would be Jim's flat screen TV. I don't have one. To me that is a very nice convenience item. I could definitely see the usefulness in that, provided I could power it with the boat disconnected from the dock. On the low end would be ErinD's robes... but hey, it's comfortable and it keeps you warm right? Just don't bend over on deck when the winds blowing!

So what other non essential convenience gear do people have? I set the bar at a 53' Amel Super Maramu. My god that boat comes stock with everything you could ever ask for. Unfortunately, a decent one is about 150k more than I would ever be willing to spend on a boat.


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## alanr77

Almost forgot to add:

Something I've noticed and I've noticed it enough that it might be a trend. When people start out sailing, they usually begin on a simple, no frills sailing vessel. Then, if they liked it, they gradually increase the boats size and complexity to suit whatever they think or know they want. Then as they get older or when they start to slow down, they gradually start moving back towards the simple, no frills sailing vessel. I personally know a few older guys who used to have large multi room vessels who now sail little day sailors. And they are always smiling when they come back in. Obviously, and I totally agree, the sailing comes first. This thread is about the extra stuff. Your anchor is set and your sails are covered.


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## Don L

I have 43' boat, which was a move up from my 39' first boat. I'm not going to make a boat item list, but far as useful space and accessories 46-48' is the sweet size for a couple!


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## seaner97

Best thing I've done to mine from a comfort standpoint was to install offshore rated sliding ports with insect screens that pop in and two solar vents on exhaust to keep constant air moving and allow for better venting on hot days.


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## outbound

We choose 46' as the cut off point. I have singled this boat without difficulty. All watches except in storms are single handed. I have all powered winches but can run the boat easily without them. Main issue is the main as at my age need to do the last few feet at the slow speed of the two speed winches. I can take the sails off by myself but it difficult . It's much easier with my wife helping.
At mid forties you can have the comforts of home but still the redundancy of a functional boat when any of the gizmos break.
Our (wife and I) attitude is the comforts equal safety. Being warm when it's cold or the reverse, dry, rested and happy helps us make good decisions and have the strength to carry on in adversity. So we have the AC, hydronic heat, multiple source of electricity etc. We are comfy and have room for what we want as well as need.
We are in our sixties but hopefully will be cruising into our eighties so planned the boat with that in mind.
Last and biggest point. Bigger boats are safer. Harder to knock down, easier ride, and longer lwl means greater days work so less exposure to weather.
There are so many good designs for blue water cruising that will fit most budgets in the 40-50' range. Personally think low to mid 40s is the sweet spot for a cruising couple.


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## MikeOReilly

The answer must come from you. What do you need? What do you want? And what can you afford, both financially and with you other resources like time, skill, effort, etc. we chose a 37-footer, although our range was 36 to 42. Our boat doesn't have all the conveniences you list, but it's pretty darn comfortable. Most importantly, it has what we need. 

So I'd say, know thy self, and find a boat that matches. 


Why go fast, when you can go slow


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## dhays

Interesting question. I have never even considered wanting a washer and dryer on a boat and would never want to pay for the space, water, and electric overhead, but then I won't be living on a boat either.

I have a very nice boat. It has a lot of the conveniences that I could never have imagined when I was a kid sailing on my folks San Juan 21. It has two heads, a separate shower, king size bed, decent sized refer, etc.... Even so, it doesn't have things that I would kind of like to have but have been to cheap to install such as an anchor wash-down pump and bow thruster.

The one boat that I have been on that seemed to be the perfect balance of everything I could want without being two difficult to single-hand was the new Catalina 445. This isn't the Catalina/Morgan 440 (although a very nice boat it is of a different type) but a relatively new design. It has, or can have, everything I think I could wish for. I would have bought one when I bought my Catalina 400 but the 445 was a new design and no used boats were on the market. It would have cost me an EXTRA $150k to buy and outfit one. But when I find myself with a case of the "wants" and dream of other boats, the Catalina 445 is what is in my mind.


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## JimMcGee

alanr77 said:


> So for you, that 30' boat, (nice boat by the way) offers just enough convenience, with AC, to enjoy the time you spend aboard. But if you spent more that a week though, you'd want something bigger. What would it take on board to make you "want your own bed" less? What would make that 38-40 fall into the sweet spot?


Hmm, that's an interesting question. An inner spring mattress for starters. A bit larger galley with more freezer space. More overall storage space aboard, and generally more space to move around. A cockpit where I didn't have to climb up and around the wheel. A bigger head/shower and larger hot water heater. A generator.

On our 30 I'm good for up to ten days before I start feeling like I have cabin fever. That said I could do 3-4 weeks exploring the coast since you have things to explore that get you off the boat. I'm a big guy so elbow room and head room are VERY important for me. So yes moving up in size would make it comfortable to stay aboard longer.

The Catalina 385 is a boat I could see myself on for extended trips. But then I'm looking at what, $250-$280K sail away? At 51 I'd rather invest that money toward our retirement and do an occasional charter. Our boat is paid for and I've been through every part of her. There are no surprises.

Again, it's about that balance and where we are in life.



alanr77 said:


> To me, somewhere in the middle would be Jim's flat screen TV. I don't have one. To me that is a very nice convenience item. I could definitely see the usefulness in that, provided I could power it with the boat disconnected from the dock.


We purchased our 12v 19" w/DVD at a truck stop a few years ago. You can get 12v flat screens, some with built in DVD/Blu-ray players up to about 32 inches designed for trucks for about half what I see them for in marine catalogs; and RV stores are another good source for convenience items.


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## Don L

from a thread I started at the "other" cruising site:

I'm curious on what people think the best couples cruising sailboats are.For me some of the items that would be part of a best couples boat would be (and this is to some degree based on my age):

- It would have a queen centerline berth. We need to get up at night and crawling over each other to do so gets old.
- It would have good size shower and the water/power capacity to take a good hot shower regularly and it would need to be able to hold us without banging an elbow every time you try to wash something
- It would have a gallery large to to hold more than 1 butt to be in it at a time
- I would have at table large enough to play a double 12 domino game (knocks out most center cockpit boats)
- it would have a good size freezer/frig for obvious reasons
- it would have enough fuel to motor at least 500 miles because we aren't getting younger and sometimes just want to get there
- it wouldn't have a bunch of steep steps to get down into the boat
- with wouldn't take a gymnast to work on the engine or get to the bottom of lockers
- the cockpit wouldn't require you to step up on the settees to get around the helm wheel
- it would be 45-50' because I know that is what it will take plus add the other space, storage and comfort a couple would like
- it would have a berth that makes a good sea berth other that the floor or the salon (good double aft berth would work)
-it would have an easy to handle sailplan even if that isn't as fast and would have oversize winches 
- it would have a dry ride
- it would sail fairy flat and more than 15 degrees heel would not be needed to get to 80% hull speed on a close reach
- it would be easy to get on/off to the dock/dinghy/launch (knees)
- space for a guess couple, but not so great that they over-stay their welcome


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## Ajax_MD

Wow. I'm an absolute Luddite next to you folks.


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## alanr77

Don01: Thanks for replying, I find it interesting that sometimes that extra 4' is all it takes. It's amazing how much more boat you get for those extra few feet. I remember when I went from 25 to 30. The 30 felt like a HUGE boat even after spending a lot of time testing out a 27. My wife was even concerned that it wouldn't be as fun because we were so far removed from the water! Now that I'm used to it, it feels like and I can maneuver it like a toy. When I first stepped aboard a Catalina 36 MKII while visiting Texas, I remember saying to myself, "now this is a big boat"....for me, I think the maximum size boat would be the one that remains feeling like that. Though I think there is something to be said about a smaller boat that you always feel in control of. I think some of the reason I always felt safe on my smaller Catalina's was because a small boat with small sails equals a small load on lines, anchor rode ect....I can only imagine the horror of something getting away from you in a breeze on a 50' boat. 

I find it really interesting though that 30 years ago, 30' was considered a pretty big cruising sailboat. I mean the majority of of "round the world" adventure books written by the pioneers of this sport were in boats ranging from 27' to 35'. Jim B's Triton, Jean D-S's Alberg and John K's Contessa come to mind. I think that the very items I'm discussing in this thread have a lot to do with this increase in cruising boat size. I remember when I started this lifestyle I went out and sailed on a few Tritons and smaller Allied's, though I was absolutely stricken by their beauty, in the back of my mind I was saying "no way would I want to stay for weeks on this thing". It works for some but I definitely knew early on that I wanted more within the boat. 

S97: That inspired an angle I hadn't thought of yet. Alternate ways to achieve an end without over complicating things. I personally have never had to leave an anchorage because it was too hot. Between the big sliding hatches Catalina's have, and the use of various funnel devices on the forward hatch, I've always managed to stay somewhat comfortable. Though that sometimes required spending the hottest portion of the day in the water. But you bring up a good point. A properly ventilated boat may not require an air conditioner as much. My current boat has 0 opening port lights. The tiny one in the head was designed to open but it leaked enough by design that I sealed it up. A few opening port lights are definitely on my next boat list. 

OutB: "We are comfy and have room for what we want as well as need." Isn't that exactly what it's all about? While I admire the guys roughing it out there and the supreme eco friendly zero footprint people I am not one of them. I spent 20 years in all the nastiest places in the world living in the dirt and I don't want to do that ever again. I want and can afford some small comforts. You guys sound like you have a nicely outfitted boat that suits your wants and needs. 

MikeO: That seems to be the range. In my opening post, that is basically where I was at. 36 is the starting point for a separate shower. 38 and up really starts to get nice. Most of what is on my next boat list did not result from sitting around brainstorming. It came from actual experiences where I found myself repeating the same things or cussing about one thing or another. My examples were to open the discussion with extremes and see where it went. My actual list is more along the lines of; A separate shower, electric windlass, self contained air conditioning at the dock and refrigeration. The list is pretty short but then again, I'm pretty happy with my C-30. 3 of those can be added to my current boat and likely will be. I'm just about coming to the end of a multi year refit so it's almost time for the toys. What was your reason for setting the limits of 36-42?

DHay: Yeah they are nice aren't they! Your post brings up a good observation though. Will there ALWAYS be a next boat list? You currently have the boat that is on my very short list of boats. I looked at a 400 a few years ago that was a repo and listed pretty cheap. I think it was sitting at 79k and sold for 70k. It had every luxury except a dive compressor. Yet, to you, the 445 sets the standard. This makes me think that it is a never ending quest. Once you get used to what your current boat offers, no matter how nice it may seem now, there will always be more.  

This is the stuff I think about. Thank the gods for forums where I can hash this stuff out without my head exploding! Jim, yeah those 385's are nice. I think they said at the show that Frank and Gary wanted to return to a more traditional boat and I think they hit a home run. I am a big fan of the Catalina boats. I have yet to be on one I didn't like. I think they offer exactly what most people need and suit the type of sailing that most people actually do. If you actually take the time to look at one the quality is pretty high. Especially in the newer boats. Business model alone does not allow you to stay in business as long as they have with the same guy at the helm. 

I think it is very important to note that a lot of what you guys are describing as your choice of comfort items are very common these days. I think it goes back to our standard has risen, due to many factors; higher income, lower cost and vastly improved technology. I mean, yes there is something to be said about keeping it simple, but some of this stuff is just to cheap to not at least try. A60 mentioned earlier that he has seen people give up because they couldn't fix all the fancy stuff they had on board. I think with that it's important for us to differentiate between a comfort item and an item that is vital to the yacht. Unless you require some sort of automation due to age or health, none of this stuff is really necessary for a boat to sail and travel. I think it's important to remember that this is supposed to be a fun pastime/lifestyle. If your ac goes down and you find yourself freaking out and questioning your lifestyle choice, then I question whether you really understand what this lifestyle is supposed to be about. When I am out and about and a comfort item breaks, I change my actions to adapt to the loss, make a plan to fix it whenever I can or want to and drive on. To keep it in perspective, we don't NEED any of this stuff.


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## JonEisberg

alanr77 said:


> My idea of a properly outfitted boat, when discussing these comfort and convenience items, is a boat that when you first walk into the cabin, you don't see any of this stuff. You may see the electrical panels that control it but that's it. To get underway, you just turn it off and close the seacocks, or make sure the dishwasher is empty. On calm island hops, you may not even have to do that. *Washing your clothes while motoring a few miles to the next anchorage- all the while topping off your batteries sounds like cruiser heaven to me.*


The photo below is a spot the Newfies call "The Squid Hole"... It was my first-ever anchorage in Newfoundland, I ghosted in there under sail on a dying breeze that evening, after a perfect passage across the Cabot Strait from Bay St. Lawrence...

This pic, and that day, will always represent as well as any, the idea of "Cruiser Heaven", _for me..._ Despite the fact I never managed to wash my clothes that day enroute...

;-)










I think the modern quest by many cruisers to 'Have It All' while 'Out There' is fundamentally flawed, and a likely recipe for becoming a captive to marina living, and living the life for a shorter duration, rather than longer... I believe it's delusional to think you can have stuff like dishwashers and clothes dryers - _and the space to service them, as well_ - aboard a boat remotely close to the 40 foot range... Sounds to me like you're also a bit naive about how 'trouble-free, reliable, and energy efficient" many of these things of which you speak really are... And all that crap will only further degrade whatever sailing performance the boat may have initially possessed, so you'll wind up sailing less, and motoring more as a result, so there's that...

The long term cruisers I know who are happiest and most 'successful', are those who have fully embraced the notion that cruising really is _DIFFERENT_ from living on dirt in a very fundamental way... That's what makes it so special, after all... Those who want all the comforts of home should probably stay there, unless they're gonna commit to going the route of something like an Oyster 625...

Leave to to The Modern Kroozer, to have devised a means of 'independent living' as nonsensical as having to run a generator, in order to run a watermaker, in order to supply water for the dishwasher...

;-)


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## alctel

Just from talking to others, 36-39' seems to be the sweet spot, at least for a single person, and for the older style sailboats with the narrower beam.

I may be biased because I'm on a 1980 36', but I can single-hand it myself and still manage to fit on a heater, pressure water, a hot water tank, a fridge/freezer etc.

Anything under 35' you start to make a lot more compromises, and 40' and over you start paying more by the foot for moorage/haul outs, and it's harder to single hand.

This may change with a modern boat with the more effective use of space, but I've only really been on older boats.

Also as noted this is for a single person (as I am intending to stay that way) - so if you are in a couple it may not work for you


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## MikeOReilly

I'm fully in Jon's camp when it comes to the desire to bring it all with you. My 37 has all I and my spouse need to live comfortably at sea or at anchor. It does not have many of the conveniences now touted as essential, but we somehow manage to thrive in our little home. 

But you asked how I arrived at the 36 to 42 for foot range when searching for 'the next boat'. Like you, it came from learning what we needed and wanted by living and learning with a previous boat (a 34' ketch). As someone on the frugal end of economic and spiritual life I approached the question differently than most apparently do. I went looking for the smallest boat we could live with. This approach seems diametrically opposed to what most people do, but it was our guide. 

With that as our guiding principle I started the search through all the possible boats that would do what we wanted, and were within our price range. This produced a moderately long list ranging from boats like a Pearson 365 to a Whitby 42. 


Why go fast, when you can go slow


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## cthoops

We've also taken Mike's approach of asking ourselves what is the smallest boat we could live with while searching for our next boat. We like to keep things simple and minimize the amount of time we have to spend fixing things. 

For us, we initially thought 36' was ideal and really honed in one particular model. Almost talked ourselves into making an offer on one. But before we did we found ourselves sitting on our Bristol 24 and commenting, not for the first time, "if she was only a tiny bit longer and a tiny bit wider, we'd keep her." We're in our third season and have spent two weeks at a time on her, and not once have we thought, "Boy we wish we had pressure water" (a foot pump, yes, but not pressure water) or "Boy we wish we had hot water." For us, her only drawbacks were her lack of storage for the food, water, and supplies needed for extended cruising and her headroom (Mr. cthoops is 6'4"). Everything else was truly perfect for us. 

We eventually realized that we had started falling into the trap of bigger, but not because we really needed 12 more feet. It was just because. Maybe for the same reason why people with no children buy 2,000 sf houses. Who knows? Anyway, this caused us to take another hard look at our list. 

Bottom line, we have a survey pending on Thursday for a Bristol 29.9. She's a bit longer, and a bit wider, but still very simple. We know with a certainty that we can take this boat cruising and be happy. Other people couldn't imagine cruising on a boat that size and with those amenities (or lack thereof). That's o.k. too. 

A person needs to figure out what modern conveniences he or she MUST have, and that will (to some extent) dictate boat size. If the result doesn't work for whatever reason (budget, complexity, etc.), then it's time to really take a hard look at the "must" list and try to pare it down. Maybe a "must" will turn into a "nice to have". At some point the size and the conveniences will (hopefully) meet.


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## alanr77

Jon: Yours is a point of view, and a welcome one. Hence the reason I wanted to talk about it. You should know that I've only recently begun carrying ice to the boat. For years I would wrap a wet cloth around the bottle and sit it in front of the fan. I have no refrigeration and no air conditioning but my varnish looks nice and my rigging is new.  But keep in mind that there are many types of cruisers. I have a Catalina 30. Granted a very upgraded and stout one but I am not leaving for Tonga tomorrow. I may be cruising north into the Chesapeake next spring though. But nonetheless if you read my posts I'm simply feeling this out. You cannot deny that tech has made things nicer for all of us. So I get it and respect your opinion that you feel we should all sail like Slocum and forage for food while drinking warm water. I've already done that and in the future, I want to have a little more. So what comfort items do you have on your boat or what would be on your next boat list? From robes to water makers. 

ALC: Nice! You pretty much have all the items modern production boats of that size are coming with as standard now. Those items have become increasingly important to people. Where I live, I can tell you each and every boat that goes out sailing every week and my memory is not very good. Most sit at the dock, and to comfortably sit at the dock, those features make life much better. Did you install or have installed any of that gear or did the boat come with it? Have you found it to be reliable or does most of it stay in a state of repair? 

MikeO: "I went looking for the smallest boat we could live with." That is some serious wisdom that I have heard a lot. You're right, that does not seem to be what's popular anymore among the weekend crowd. But then again, I get mad when my wife tries to invite more than three or four of her friends out on my boats. They get in the way and I have to keep an eye on all of them. However, on the other side of the coin every weekend I watch what seems like a continuous stream of people piling onto boats, the more the merrier. So I think that has dictated their choice of boat. 

From what is starting to play out here, the choice of comfort items on board really correlates heavily with the mindset of the cruiser. On one end you have JonE and on the other you have CapeC's 52' boat when he had it. A lot of us seem to fall in between. There is no doubt in my mind that as the generations of cruisers progress, we will and are seeing a shift from Jon to CapeC (generalizing here). Leaving out the carbon footprint people, newer and younger generations of cruisers have to means for and want to have some of the things from home it would seem. In my opinion, it is unwise to turn your back on technological advancement. As an example, where are all the guys who predicted horrible accidents and thousands of lost boats when people put their sextant on the mantle and started to rely on multiple GPS units? Granted, and I agree, that it is prudent to have a manual backup and the skill to use it but can anyone really tell me the last time all three of your GPS units stopped working and you had to rely on a sextant? I'm using these as examples that people can relate to to the same could be said about modern day refrigeration or power inverters. Now please understand, I'm not standing on either side of the fence here nor do I have or feel you must have any of the stuff we're talking about. I am just interested in what other people are doing and what they think about it.


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## alanr77

CT: Excellent post! So for you, your next boat list was simply headroom and storage space.

Something else to add, conversely, some people would not remain long term cruisers IF they had to carry ice and water all the time. I think that in a way, these comfort items can in fact make your life more comfortable and hence, more enjoyable. To some, the simplicity of life is enough. To others, they want to be as inconvenienced as possible. Note, there is no correct way or right way to cruise. The right way is however you cruise.


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## Brent Swain

I have never found it all that "convenient to" stay on the treadmill, and give up years of cruising, just to pay for that kind of "Convenience."
( Most inconvenient!)


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## alanr77

Brent: So in your case, you had to choose between cruising at all and adding any convenience items to your boat? Or should I extrapolate from that, that to you, your comfort item is not having to worry about any comfort items? I really wasn't trying to start a debate about what type of cruising is best, minimalistic or material, but I am interested in your point of view. What items are on your next boat list and why?


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## Solar54

I have a 1985 36 foot Catalina. I have often gone from wanting bigger to wanting smaller. Lately I am very pleased with the 36. I keep eyeing the space along the port side of the dinning area and think of all the things I could add there. I could keep most of the dinning area but easily add amenities. Other than larger fuel tanks and a water maker, I can't think of anything I really want or need to add. I have heat and AC when at dock, and usually very comfortable while at anchor. So for me 36 foot is about ideal. Any current projects are more for long distance/heavy weather sailing than for comfort amenities.


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## seaner97

Alan, I'm obviously biased in what I like, but I'd say for a couple doing coastal cruising, you could really get everything but the separate shower on as small as a 30. I looked at a Pearson 30 that checked most of the boxes (ac, refrigerator, heat, hot water) but seemed small for a growing family. I really liked the Bristol 35.5, Pearson 36 and the Bristol 35, and ended up with a Pearson 35, mostly for cost reasons (1 more foot was an additional 75k when I was looking). Have been happy with it as most of the time I really like the larger pit with the forward wheel as it really clears out a ton of space when sitting around drinking beer with guests, and minimizes the bounce in chop due the 25 foot waterline. Has enough room below, hot water, hand shower, electric water pump, gimballed stove and oven, and with the added ventilation, no need for ac here in Maine, even those days it's in the 80s. Not a modern design and doesn't go to weather as fast as newer boats, but how fast do you really need to get there? If I had all the money in the world? Hinkley sou'wester. The Bruce King design-that's what a boat should be. No offense Bob.


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## JimMcGee

I have a question for those contributing to this thread. 

How long do you typically stay aboard?

And what's the longest stretch that you've been aboard?


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## aeventyr60

Full time for 20 years. 16 years cruising. Some breaks to hike, ski, mountaineer, travel inland, travel home to see mom and the occasional work stint. We've often not been to a marina for a year or more....no washer, dryer, dishwasher or watermaker. My toys and 2nd passport seem to be the convenience items. If the sheila's don't like it, I get a new one.


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## Erindipity

One thing not really addressed yet are Modern Conveniences that are Health and Safety related, like:

Portable CPAP and Oxygen Concentrators. I know a Sailor, who after years of Daysailing only, had a CPAP Machine installed on his Catalina last year.

Defibrillators. Needs training and regular maintenance.

Portable Carbon Monoxide Detectors. Almost a necessity these days, where Engines, Generators, and Stoves are involved.

HEPA filtered fans. Sanded varnish gets _everywhere_. Difficult to clean and store.

Security and Medical-Alert Systems. Cellular?

Exercise Equipment. The Morning Jog around the Cockpit may take all of three seconds. One neat solution: Pedal Powered Generators. Exercise your Calfs, while charging the Batteries. (Note: It's difficult to generate more than 50 Watts continuously...)

Night Vision and Thermal Imaging. See the rocks before you end up on them.

¬Erindipity


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## JonEisberg

alanr77 said:


> You cannot deny that tech has made things nicer for all of us.


I _CAN_, actually... I've been in the yacht delivery business for most of my adult life, after all, and I often have the 'pleasure' of having to deal with much of that nice "tech"... 

One of the most miserable trips I've ever had was a delivery to Tortola aboard a state-of-the-art $1.3 million 50-footer from a highly regarded Dutch yard, an incredibly sophisticated and 'systems heavy' named a CRUISING WORLD Boat of the Year...

Having been built with 'Performance' in mind, she was watermaker-dependent, with somewhat minimal water tankage... When the RO went tits up second day of the trip, we were forced to revert to a very strict rationing mode... Good thing there were no ladies aboard, I think we each had 2 Navy-style showers over the course of the next 8 days...

The toilets aboard were fresh water flush... Wasn't exactly a "convenience" to have to drag a bucket of seawater below each time to make them usable...

'Climate control' on that boat underway was highly generator dependent... There was virtually no natural ventilation that could be opened when sailing to weather, no dorades, the only ventilation available was the air-conditioning system... Unfortunately, we encountered tradewinds conditions very early on into the trip, turned into a hard beat to weather for most of the last week. But under the deep angle of heel we were carrying in order to fetch our destination, the generator kept shutting down due to a low oil level alarm/cutoff... The boat became a virtual sauna below decks, and the off watch often wound up sleeping in the cockpit...

Perhaps worst of all, it sure would have been nice to have a simple French Press aboard... For in order to brew coffee with the snazzy Miele cappucino machine, it would be necessary to either furl the jib, or fall off in order for the boat to become sufficiently upright to make a cup of brew... ;-)

Of course, the electric motor for the Leisure-Furl system crapped out even before we got out of the Chesapeake... So, someone always had to go to the mast to reef, or shake one out, anyway... Gotta love that "tech", alright... ;-)

I've gotten to the point where whenever I get aboard one of these High-Tech boats, I simply try to avoid using any of that stuff as much as possible. Chances are good it might only make more work for me, in the end... Most of this stuff is so shoe-horned into tight spots and inaccessible, I don't ever want to have to touch it... The 45-footer I just ran out to Lake Erie, I was very thankful I never really had to rely on the generator, for example... Simply checking the oil on that thing was hard enough, actually having to add some could have been a near-impossibility, at least without making quite a mess... Have you ever seen where the generator goes on a Valiant 42? If you think you could actually service that thing effectively, you are either a far smaller, more nimble, or better man than I ;-) So, when I hear people speaking of stuffing generators and such into boats under 40 feet, I simply have to shake my head in wonder, I think they have no idea what they might be setting themselves up for...



alanr77 said:


> *So I get it and respect your opinion that you feel we should all sail like Slocum* and forage for food while drinking warm water. I've already done that and in the future, I want to have a little more. So what comfort items do you have on your boat or what would be on your next boat list? From robes to water makers.


No, you don't get it at all, I am suggesting no such thing... I think most would probably find the 30-footer I sail is far better equipped than most of her size. I have multiple sources of heat, for instance, and a wider means of generating battery charging than most, without having to rely on the ubiquitous Honda 2000... I've watched Super Bowls aboard my boat while anchored in Miami, a few seasons of BREAKING BAD while anchored in Labrador, all while enjoying a nice cold beverage... So, I'm not exactly a devotee of cruising Slocum-style... ;



alanr77 said:


> In my opinion, it is unwise to turn your back on technological advancement. As an example, where are all the guys who predicted horrible accidents and thousands of lost boats when people put their sextant on the mantle and started to rely on multiple GPS units? Granted, and I agree, that it is prudent to have a manual backup and the skill to use it but can anyone really tell me the last time all three of your GPS units stopped working and you had to rely on a sextant? I'm using these as examples that people can relate to to the same could be said about modern day refrigeration or power inverters. Now please understand, I'm not standing on either side of the fence here nor do I have or feel you must have any of the stuff we're talking about. I am just interested in what other people are doing and what they think about it.


You obviously haven't been paying very close attention, people are now driving boats up onto reefs at a rate that would seem to exceed that of the time of the Smeetons, and Hiscocks... Eight boats lost and counting this year, in the San Blas Islands alone...

What I think is "unwise", is rather to "turn your back on" simple, elegant 'non-technical' solutions that have proven their worth over time...

As per my earlier example, dorade vents and hatches that can be opened underway, water tanks of sufficient size, stuff like that...

;-)

Hmmm, speaking of the perils/downsides of high-tech, remember Stanley Paris? Seems like he tired of this one rather quickly...

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/201...Cruiser-2861203/ME/United-States#.VbgikUV6jIB


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## seaner97

We are, currently a max 10-14 day family. But, honestly, after day 3, can't imagine day 30 being much different.


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## Omatako

JonEisberg said:


> You obviously haven't been paying very close attention, people are now driving boats up onto reefs at a rate that would seem to exceed that of the time of the Smeetons, and Hiscocks... Eight boats lost and counting this year, in the San Blas Islands alone...


I reckon the reason these boats are being trashed on reefs is not due to faulty GPS.

As far as I am concerned my 44ft boat is the perfect size (but to say it wasn't would be to admit that I'm a dummy for buying it). It affords me all the space I need, it is comfortable on anchor (most time is spent on anchor), it is as safe at sea as most boats could be and all of the tech on board is great when it works but is not life threatening when it stops.

I would prefer to have ice cold drinks but if the fridge stops working, it isn't going to chase me home. Likewise any of the other comfort-tech on the boat. I can live without AC (in fact I do), I can live without a watermaker/TV/hot shower but it's nice when they do work.

Erendipity, when I need any of that stuff on my boat I'll know it's time to go home.


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## MikeOReilly

Last season we were over 4 months on board. Next season will be more. 

My approach to boat systems are first to understand my wants vs my needs. After that I try and go with things I can maintain and fix with my limited skills and resources, and/or I go for systems that are highly reliable. 

In the first category I'd include things like my windvane (Aries), my head (Natures Head), my shower (converted pesticide sprayer) or my manual windlass. In the second I'd lump my GPSs, radios, sonar. Of course I have stuff in the middle like pumps, a fridge and the old Perkins engine. I can fix some problems with these, but not all. And then there's the electrical system. Solar and wind gen keeps the batteries up. I do carry a 1000 watt gas generator, but only used it one season to charge batteries when the old wind gen unexpectedly died. 

I guess I'm kinda a lazy guy, and not very skilled, so I keep my boat as simple as possible. I like modern tools that work well. But I don't need, nor do I want, my boat to carry all the "necessities" found in most land-based homes these days. But to each his/her own. 


Why go fast, when you can go slow


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## alanr77

Jim, currently 8am until dark daily......refits make boats unlivable. Longest stretch was almost a month at once. 

Erin D: Yeah that's some serious stuff. 

JonE: There we go. That's the stuff I was looking for. I've read a lot of your posts over time and I knew you had some serious opinions on this very subject with some experience on boats I'll never touch. I think early on I said that I would never want anything controlling the boat except me. To much to go wrong. I think the equipment used at sea is very different than the equipment used at anchor or when tied up. While underway my boat is squared away and we are using minimal equipment so as to save it for important things, like GPS and lights. What you described to me was the extreme side of yachting that most of us will never see other than while crewing. The people that can afford those type boats aren't out at sea- they pay people like you to be. They don't care if it works out there, only that it works when they come to visit their boat. 

However:

For some reason I feel compelled to defend myself because I don't think you got me either. If we were standing on the dock this would be easy but things get crossed easily on the internet. Your initial short post eluded to a very strong negative reaction to the idea of putting any of this stuff on a boat. Not knowing you, and before you explained it, I could only assume where you were coming from. Everything I said from post #1 has been what if, what do you like about and why would you. You are very likely correct when you say your 30' boat is better outfitted than most. Certainly better than mine. I've spent all my money on replacing every nut bolt wire line bulb battery fitting cleat block and anything else that bolts screws sticks or gets stuck on my boat. I am quite handicapped and yet I do all this myself- it should be obvious where my priorities are. My boat is not pretty yet on the outside because I've spent the last 4 years replacing everything else. I am now at a point where I can start to add a few things to convert this boat into something a little more comfortable than a basic sailing yacht. I just wanted to hear about what other people were doing and why. I also wanted to get the perspective from others as to what size boat they ended up with and why. Posting is like fishing, sometimes you have to put the right bait out to get people to bite and contribute their experience. Know one who expects to catch anything fishes in the same spot. So therefore I have been all over the place trying to spark up a discussion. It is not, nor will it ever be my intent to try and convince someone else to do, think or act like i do. Having said that, my ability to repair, restore and maintain mechanical and electrical items is greater than most. I don't outsource anything. Even circuit boards and hydraulic rams. Not only do I have the training, but I've got the money to buy whatever is needed to include special tools to fix it. Now maybe I'm reading you completely wrong and if that is the case, I apologize, but you have to admit whether intentionally or by accident your first post was condescending towards the idea of adding some of this stuff, stuff that I don't even have nor want (read my post about whats on my next boat list if you like) when that wasn't the intention of this thread at all. I simply responded in the nicest way I could to try and get you to elaborate because I've read your posts over the years and I knew you had a strong opinion on this stuff based on experience. That's all I was looking for and your last post gave it. Thank you. 

Oma: I always like getting information from you guys over in the NZ/AU area. Your backyard is where a lot of us break our necks trying to get to. And yet it's nothing but a day sail for you. I would imagine that the next boat list fills up quick when doing long distance travel. Things become apparent very quickly when you are on board and traveling 24/7. Jims question made me think about it and I guess the time spent aboard really dictates what items you want to have aboard, comfort wise. I would also think that where you spend your time makes a difference as well. The guy tied to the dock most of the time compared to the guy on the hook most of the time. 

MikeO: So it seems your focus was simplicity and self sufficiency for the items that you do have. If I may ask, what type of cruising do you normally do? Obviously there is some distance involved for you to have a wind vane. I borrowed a friends boat a while back that had I think an Aires on it and I could not get the thing to work right while coastal. This was before I really understood them and realized they work much better with constant offshore winds as opposed to fickle and ever changing coastal wind. Never got the chance to do that though.


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## alanr77

Jim, I think your question might help me along the way as well. The amount of time people spend on their boats likely has a direct correlation to what type of gear they have. The cruiser who lives aboard 8 months out of the year at the dock will outfit his boat very differently than the guy who spends 8 months a year under sail in various places. 

Where I live we don't seem to have very many cruisers pass through. I don't have the opportunity to actually ask these questions in person or see what other people are doing. The majority of active sailboats here are raced- and i mean removing cushions out of a 34' boat due to weight kind of racing. My buddies are all weekend sailors. The only experience I have with any of this equipment is my own. If you read all the sailing rags, you want and need everything. If you go it on your own, you might be missing out because you don't know any better. This is why I turned to a forum to get access to what others are doing. I don't have a side of the fence because I don't know enough about any of this equipment to decide what side to be on. Posts like JonE's give me some insight to what can happen when you have too much automation. Likely an issue ill never have but important nonetheless. When I comment on your post, I'm more reading back to you to insure i understand what you are saying than making a statement of my own. I'm trying to learn something from you guys based on what you have done. I can go toe to toe with people on a lot of things but comfort items are not one of them. Thanks for the opinions and experiences so far.

I think I repeated myself a , little but I'm trying to talk directly to multiple people at once......;-/


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## Omatako

alanr77 said:


> Oma: I always like getting information from you guys over in the NZ/AU area. Your backyard is where a lot of us break our necks trying to get to. And yet it's nothing but a day sail for you. I would imagine that the next boat list fills up quick when doing long distance travel. Things become apparent very quickly when you are on board and traveling 24/7. Jims question made me think about it and I guess the time spent aboard really dictates what items you want to have aboard, comfort wise. I would also think that where you spend your time makes a difference as well. The guy tied to the dock most of the time compared to the guy on the hook most of the time.


For me there is no "next boat" - the one I have is it - we'll be spending the next several years (however long it takes) in the South Pacific on this boat. And the South Pacific has very few docks for cruising boats. We have already done a voyage from the US to NZ on the boat and have upgraded certain stuff for future voyaging.

Our boat is being rigged primarily to be safe and then to be comfortable and if there's any money left over we'll deal with "faster". But for now 130 miles a day is more than adequate for me. We have a Category 1 clearance inspection to achieve which is exclusively about safety. No Cat 1 - no customs clearance to leave NZ.


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## alanr77

Yeah I've heard NZ has some serious requirements that effect cruisers in a big way. Safety should always be number 1 though. What good are the extras if you don't make it far enough to use them. Even in the coastal, near coastal area I currently sail in, my decks are always clear and the dinghy is always stowed. That's kind of where i was going with the post earlier where I said to me you shouldn't be able to see any of this extra stuff when you first go down below. If I can't properly stow it, I don't want it. I've been reading the huge thread about production boats and extra stuff on deck has come up a lot. It's a habit I never formed and for good reason. In your travels, what comfort and convenience items have you deemed really nice to have and what has not worked out for you?


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## aeventyr60

alanr77 said:


> Yeah I've heard NZ has some serious requirements that effect cruisers in a big way. Safety should always be number 1 though. What good are the extras if you don't make it far enough to use them. Even in the coastal, near coastal area I currently sail in, my decks are always clear and the dinghy is always stowed. That's kind of where i was going with the post earlier where I said to me you shouldn't be able to see any of this extra stuff when you first go down below. If I can't properly stow it, I don't want it. I've been reading the huge thread about production boats and extra stuff on deck has come up a lot. It's a habit I never formed and for good reason. In your travels, what comfort and convenience items have you deemed really nice to have and what has not worked out for you?


No serious requirements for cruisers from the NZ government. If anything they have made it easier by extending time yachts can spend here. You may be reading or regarding an outdated and very controversial decision to require all yachts to comply with the NZ CAT IV safety inspection/equipment requirements. It pretty much killed off cruisers from coming to NZ many years ago....
The serious requirements are for a well found boat. The passage from Tonga to the North Island can be real sporty. But, no worries the Kiwi's can fix whatever you break......Lot's of folks end cruising here, I was lucky to escape...but will be back.


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## Don L

Just a warning/thought for the OP to consider - It's a mistake to believe that replies on an internet forum relating to an opinion type question represents a majority of boaters.


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## Erindipity

Omatako said:


> Erendipity, when I need any of that stuff on my boat I'll know it's time to go home.


I assume that you are referring to the Health and Safety post, and not the one where I extolled on the virtues of Portable Icemakers...
I keed, I keed. Unless you need a CPAP.
If you need one, there's no longer any need to head to Marina at Sunset. Just make sure that your snoring doesn't end up emptying the Anchorage before Sunrise.

This thread has been, on occasion, about what Mod Cons are now considered desirable, or even necessary, and so as how to size a boat to fit them all in. It's like buying a Ring, and then finding a woman upon whose finger it will fit.
Now, by Mod Cons, I mean those things that have been possible in the last decade, and incomprehensible a decade before.
Like Portable Icemakers.

I want a Digital Microscope. I dragged my old American Optical down to the Boat, just to see what was floating around, and I encountered Floaters. The ones _within_ the Eye. What was amusing as a child is now damn irritating decades later.
I did ask about Digital Microscopes here before- lotta laughs. (I'm also interested in a Mass Spec.) But I really do want a Digital Microscope, but as soon as one shows up on Craigslist recently, it is then snapped up.
It shouldn't take up too much room. I may have to pay Retail.

I'm all set for Refrigeration, Lighting, Showers, Charging, Communications, Stereo, TV, Internet, Computing, CAD, Inversion, Diversion, (And resultant First Aid...), All on a 29', very well thought out by Beneteau Sailboat, built by them some three decades back.

I do need a decent small 12VDC Portable Printer. HP and Canon make good ones, and they actually weigh more than their Massive Mass Market Plastic Disasters, which means something, I'm sure. (I really quite liked my old tiny Canon Thermal Bubblejet.)

Some of the Appliances mentioned here do intrigue me. I have my buckets and my trained feet. Washing thus accomplished.
But these new ventilated Portable Spin Dryers... there is nothing so embarrassing as to explain why all that Frilly Guest Underwear dripping off of the Cabin Handholds doesn't really belong to me. (I have yet to explain a Mumu. If the subject comes up, I will merely claim that it's mine.)

Which brings me at last to some other Mod Cons- Modern Considerations. All this was bought on sale at Target:
Teal Bath Towels, 6, enclosing in rolls:
Teal Bath Cloth
Mini Ivory Soap
Mini Shampoo
Travel Toothbrush and Toothpaste
A Razor
Aspirin
An XL Tee-Shirt that I had made up. It shows the Draft lines of the Boat at the front, with "Got Wet?" underneath. (Sorry, this boat is only 29'. XXL can go elsewhere.)

I have made many people uncomfortable on my boats in the distant past. I have made fun of Seasickness. I loved Fighting the Spray, soaked to the marrow, hankered down and doing crazy round-ups. Other didn't.
But with the now warmish Head and Shower, just snuck under the Companionway to Starboard, those accidents that can and will happen, can have some dignified resolution, and a little humor, and a lot of Brandy in Hot Chocolate.
They can keep the Modern Considerations all, as Souvenirs.
I actually hate having to deal with laundry.

¬Erindipity


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## Ajax_MD

The comment Jon made about embracing the fact that cruising/living aboard is fundamentally different, has struck me.

Evans Starzinger, Beth and Evans Home Page 2X double-handed, circumnavigator, told me that cruisers today, do not desire to leave dirt-life behind, and embrace seamanship and a seaman's life. Rather, they aspire to transplant dirt-life aboard a boat.

Evans and Beth customized a known, solid design and built their own boat. No generator, no refrigeration, no climate control, no water maker, yet they did not live crudely or uncomfortably.

Hawk carries a ridiculous amount of tankage, had very large battery banks, the hull was heavily insulated against cold and heat, and is equipped with a powerful diesel heater.
They ate well, and slept comfortably. Beth was an absolute whiz at knowing how to buy and store fresh food so that it wouldn't spoil. Trust me, they did NOT live on dehydrated, powdered foods. They washed their laundry, took showers when it suited them. They made good use of modern electronics for navigation, boat handling and collision avoidance.
I think they said their longest passage well over 30 days (not sure where they were going, or why it took so long).

I've been aboard Hawk. It truly was a marvel. I teased Evans that he was a modern day Captain Nemo, minus the brooding pipe organ solos down in the main cabin.

I apply his philosophy regarding technology, simplicity and redundancy aboard my own boat.


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## Don L

I always wonder why so many are against being comfortable on the boat. There isn't any reason why living on a boat has to be like sleeping on the ground in a tent while crapping in a hole in the ground, getting cool water from a stream and washing with a cup. Maybe that is fun, for a while, but just because you want to do it it doesn't make it the end all method for everyone else.


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## JonEisberg

BubbleheadMd said:


> The comment Jon made about embracing the fact that cruising/living aboard is fundamentally different, has struck me.
> 
> *Evans Starzinger, Beth and Evans Home Page 2X double-handed, circumnavigator, told me that cruisers today, do not desire to leave dirt-life behind, and embrace seamanship and a seaman's life. Rather, they aspire to transplant dirt-life aboard a boat.*
> 
> Evans and Beth customized a known, solid design and built their own boat. No generator, no refrigeration, no climate control, no water maker, yet they did not live crudely or uncomfortably.
> 
> Hawk carries a ridiculous amount of tankage, had very large battery banks, the hull was heavily insulated against cold and heat, and is equipped with a powerful diesel heater.
> They ate well, and slept comfortably. Beth was an absolute whiz at knowing how to buy and store fresh food so that it wouldn't spoil. Trust me, they did NOT live on dehydrated, powdered foods. They washed their laundry, took showers when it suited them. They made good use of modern electronics for navigation, boat handling and collision avoidance.
> I think they said their longest passage well over 30 days (not sure where they were going, or why it took so long).
> 
> I've been aboard Hawk. It truly was a marvel. I teased Evans that he was a modern day Captain Nemo, minus the brooding pipe organ solos down in the main cabin.
> 
> I apply his philosophy regarding technology, simplicity and redundancy aboard my own boat.


_EXACTLY..._

I've always thought their article on the decisions made in fitting out HAWK was one of the best ever written on the subject...

http://www.bethandevans.com/pdf/Leftoff.pdf

Alanr77 mentions his desire to be able to keep decks clear, and in my view that's admirable, a very important consideration... But that's where the desire for having more "conveniences" aboard can really butt up against the reality of stowage of deck gear and other cruising essentials - particularly with so many of today's production offerings with so much of their interior volume given over to accommodation space, and so little left for sail lockers and lazarettes... when you stuff a generator into a boat under 40 feet, chances are it's only gonna diminish the amount of space that will otherwise be dedicated to stuff like fenders, and so on...

You really need to get into some pretty big boats, before the mindset of "How Much Stuff Can I Take Along?" can rightfully take priority over that of "How Much Stuff Can I Live Without?"

Hint: 36 feet is probably not nearly big enough, it you want to be adding stuff like a clothes washer and dryer...

;-)


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## JonEisberg

Don0190 said:


> I always wonder why so many are against being comfortable on the boat. There isn't any reason why living on a boat has to be like sleeping on the ground in a tent while crapping in a hole in the ground, getting cool water from a stream and washing with a cup. Maybe that is fun, for a while, but just because you want to do it it doesn't make it the end all method for everyone else.


Assuming yours is in response to bubblehead's post, I always wonder how anyone can so grossly misinterpret the point he and others have been trying to make...

;-)


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## aeventyr60

Another convenience item would be a spare propane fitting so you can decant some third world countries propane into your own tank..nothing like running out of cooking gas for that latte....


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## capecodda

Since I've been noted as a "reference owner" of a complex 52, I thought I'd add some more detail than might be helpful.

I'm a coastal sailor that does an occasional offshore passage, one or 2 nights of overnight watches to go down east or southern Canada. The question of how long you spend aboard in a stretch is VERY relevant to the answers here. The longest I've spent is 13 weeks, and about week 11 I wanted off, even on a 52. Many of the posters here cruise for years, good for them, that's not me. Sailing is VERY important to me but so isn't many land based activities, and even, dare I say it here, fishing and power boating (Yikes).

I'm in my 6th decade on the planet, and at least 4 of those sailing owning 5 different sailboats. We are now sailing a 38. I am the old guy who downsized and reduced complexity when he got "rational." For pure sailing enjoyment, for me, there is nothing better than a no destination daysail. For a cruise, there is nothing better than a quiet down east anchorage with no immediate need to leave and get someplace else.

At this point in my sailing life, I agree most strongly with Jon. The complexity, even when within site of marina's and supplies was not worth it long term for us. Sure we got an Espar, a DC fridge, and even 1 power winch for the main halyard on the 38. But we don't have 3 air conditioners, bow thruster, 4 big power winches, power in mast furling, generator, water maker, 2 standup showers,
15 DC pumps for everything from sumps to water pressure to bilges, to power driven marine heads, ........washer/dryer, never got there, but I cannot imagine this stuff doesn't require maintenance too.

Yea, I hear the argument that when the unimportant stuff breaks you can live without. But I think when you've got all the stuff you come to depend on it, and find it very frustrating when you cannot keep it running. 

My advice is to sail the smallest, simplest boat you can stand to live on. 

To quote my wife who owned a sailboat boat before we were married, "don't turn my house into a boat, and I won't turn the boat into the house." So, yea, she doesn't let me put a pedestal in wheel with binnacle in the living room. 

Wise she is.


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## Capt Len

Ahh, Matt, way too practical and based,I suspect, on personal experience. most are plugged in and the club has a laundry but the dream is strong.and how best to flaunt it.


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## aeventyr60

Was thinking my pressure cooker and rolling pin are quite convenient too....I actually enjoy making bread the old fashioned way...I guess some would need an electrical bread maker too..


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## travlin-easy

I enjoyed reading this thread and wondered why I would want a washer/dryer on the boat - Hell, cruisers can just drag the laundry behind the boat on a length of rope and within a half-hour the jeans are clean and just need to be rinsed in fresh water. 

As for the size of the boat, I get along pretty well on my Morgan 33 Out Island. It has pretty much everything I have at home: gas stove, oven, refrigerator/freezer, flat screen TV, internet, laptop computer, hot and cold running water, head with shower, Temper-pedic matress in the vee berth, inverter, microwave, wall mounted electric fans (3), and the old A4 is pretty economical to run on days when the wind fails to cooperate, gets about 8 to 9 miles per gallon of gasoline. 

Now, I thought about buying the Morgan 41 Out Island, center cockpit, aft cabin, lots of additional space, but after test riding one, I found I could handle the 33 a lot easier by myself than the 41. So I guess, at least in my case, most, if not all those modern conveniences fit comfortably in a boat that I felt comfortable single handing, either in Chesapeake Bay, or offshore. 

Good luck with whatever you decide upon,

Gary


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## JonEisberg

Capt Len said:


> Ahh, Matt, way too practical and based,I suspect, on personal experience. most are plugged in and the club has a laundry but the dream is strong.and how best to flaunt it.


Not to mention, one aspect of all this that many aspiring cruisers fitting out their Dream Boats to have all the self-contained comforts of home might tend to overlook...

Having to attend to a chore like laundry in a strange or remote location, is just the sort of thing that might result in one of the more delightful or bizarre encounters with the locals, and the kind of serendipitous surprise of which some of the fondest or most amusing cruising memories will be made...

You never know what you might encounter, once you dare to get off the boat...

;-)


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## Capt Len

"You never know what you might encounter, once you dare to get off the boat."..That brought back a memory. If I may drift a bit here, We brought our laundry into town to find a washer. Did that and jumped a bus to Malaysia for passport stamp . Return 3 days later with our chocolate and liquor ,as we got off the bus., a motor bike taxi pulls up and says 'get laundry?' The whole little town knew . Back to our regular programming


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## Ajax_MD

JonEisberg said:


> Assuming yours is in response to bubblehead's post, I always wonder how anyone can so grossly misinterpret the point he and others have been trying to make...
> 
> ;-)


Oh, but it wouldn't be Sailnet if someone didn't totally twist each other's meanings, or rant "facts" without cites.

I can assure Don, that Beth and Evans did not "crap in a hole" and that life on their boat was not like tent camping.

One thing that makes me laugh, is that some of the adaptations to long-haul cruising or living aboard, don't necessarily take more "energy" or involve more difficulty, they simply require a different process than people are used to.
That makes these adaptations "bad" and should be avoided, simply because they're different than what you did on land.

-I want to live on a boat!
-Why?
-Because it's different! But...I want to do everything exactly the way I do in my house on the street. If I have to live different, it's not good.
-Uh, ok.


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## outbound

Jon-I agree with much of what you say. We spec'd the boat with the space, wiring/plumbing for a genset, watermaker, microwave and Spendide washer/dryer. We have two D400s and two very large Kycero panels so the genset goes on once a month because I was told it is bad for it to just sit. Had figured for a 8kW set but went with a 4kW that was the lightest I could find (Lombardini). Still have had overcast and windless days where it has been used to charge the batteries. Also the rare 90, hot and humid where its gone on briefly to dry the boat out via the AC. We are fortunate it that our boat is well ventilated and have multiple well placed fans so AC is run very, very rarely.
The space for the Spledide had a closet bar installed and its where we hang foulies. The washer/dryer is off the list.
The space for the microwave is filled with galley stuff and its off the list.

BUT the watermaker is going in. Given it will be a Cape Horn Extreme I make enough electrons from the wind/solar to run it at anchor. We've had several occasions to need to return to the grid just for water and that's in the eastern Caribbean where its not hard at all to find good water. Hope to truly leave the grid next year and cant see doing that even with 200g in the water tanks. I view taking a shower every third day on passage a big deal. Everyone perks up and smiles. We still wash dishes in salt and rinse in fresh if its a long passage and are careful with water but I think the watermaker will improve quality of life significantly. We are going with the Cape Horn Extreme due to the ABSENCE of fancy electronic controls and endorsements of others that they seem to break the least often. Been into the fuel dock twice in the last 12m. Did have fuel polished a couple of months ago and will again if motoring stays low. Believe a good boat needs to go in for food and fuel and that should be infrequent.
Been living on the boat since Nov 2014 except for a break last Xmas and now occasional breaks setting up house/ office condo for sale.


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## alanr77

A60: Yeah that was what I was talking about. I had some friends who retired before me who were planning the trip and they were talking about that. I'll have to look into it as apparently it has changed. Thanks for the information.

DonO: Absolutely agree. When I ask questions, even live, I look at it as information coming from someones own point of view. Sometimes I agree, sometimes I don't but it often inspires my own train of thought regardless of what was said. I've already traveled all over the world and have been boating for most of my life. The heavy sailing has been within this decade but I have seen enough of the world to be able to usually make up my own mind in the right direction on most things. I understand that the views here are not the majority but they are a very good sample of a wide variety of different views, and I can get them while sitting here waiting on the paint in the head to dry. In a way it's all useful if you can sort out the BS and opinions and take from it a different perspective. A good example of this would be that production boat thread, so far, out of 700+ posts, the most important thing I got from it was the link to a great folding bicycle and a really good weather planning website.

ErinD: That's very true in a lot of ways. I unfortunately did not escape two decades in the military unscathed. It all happened in my final year actually  but I too have a unique set of requirements on board. My friends and I have spent countless hours brainstorming how to make a "handicap boat" to allow me to live out my dreams. Anything is possible these days. But I can tell you this, I can drag water jugs for miles to get them filled. But it will take me a month. I would have to drag them feet at a time while dragging my a$$ on the ground as well. I have become a master on crutches and can surprisingly move quite a bit of gear at a time. I wasn't going to let my dream or my love of sailing die because of my injury. I just have to use my head more instead of my lower body. Having said that, I LOVE being on my boat because it's the only place in the world where I don't look funny crawling around all the time and everything is within easy reach while being supported by handholds everywhere. My handholds have to be strong because I use them everyday to move about the boat. So far, I have adapted well and have not had any issues on board. Nonetheless, I do have to keep some level of automation in mind while outfitting this thing. A watermaker REALLY would make my life easier. As would a windlass, and the ability to make and keep ice. Carrying things to and from the boat takes on a whole new meaning when you can't walk. 

Hello MD: I think I've read some stuff by them somewhere over the years. I may be wrong but they sound familiar. Again, I don't have a side in this yet but the first thing that comes to mind when I read things that seem to be against "mod cons" is that without innovation, we stop moving forward. Not everyone wants to leave dirt behind and live a strictly seamans life. A lot of people just love being on the water, love to sail, and want to travel a bit by way of water. It seems that in the sailing world, there is a constant fight between the "old salt traditional keel swashbucket sailor" and the "modern electronic mod con sailor" Everyone thinks that they have the best way but one has to really look at what type of cruising that person is doing before they can figure out the best way for them to do it. My current boat is being set up as a coastal cruiser and island hopper for a couple. The requirements to accomplish this are much different than a passagemaker for a family of four. When I am done doing what I'm doing with the current boat, I will then "pick another tool" for the requirements that need to be met. It is in this spirit that I was hoping the thread didn't turn into a debate as to which cruising is best, but instead focused on what mod cons (I love that-thanks ErinD) people have and if they work for them. Like I said before, things are moving at a very fast pace. Equipment that didn't work a year ago is now greatly improved so I don't think we can apply opinions made ten years ago on a piece of equipment to a piece of equipment made today. I just looked at a portable dive compressor that measures 14x14x28 and weighs 85 pounds. It was designed to be used on the deck of dive boats, available in gas or electric power. This thing is designed to and will stand up to the ocean environment. Quite affordable too at $3300.00. I know for a fact that this thing would easily fit in one of my lazerette lockers and man, being able to fill my tanks while out and about would be great. So if I could find a place to put it on my 39 year old 30' boat, why in the world could this not be made to work on a 36'+ boat? Just using that as an example. I'll repeat it again: I don't have a side yet. Just fishing. 

"I always wonder why so many are against being comfortable on the boat. There isn't any reason why living on a boat has to be like sleeping on the ground in a tent while crapping in a hole in the ground, getting cool water from a stream and washing with a cup. Maybe that is fun, for a while, but just because you want to do it it doesn't make it the end all method for everyone else." 
DonO: Agreed but I don't think he was intending to suggest going that far. I think he was suggesting restraint and careful thought into what is really feasible and necessary. But based on your comment, I'm done with that basic lifestyle. I've already done that. Not to mention, squatting over a hole in the ground is much harder to do on one leg. Try it some time, just make sure you have an entire roll of TP, you'll likely need it. 

JonE: Completely agree with you. It's is that very conflict that I think is worth discussing. I'm dealing with it right now. One thing that I'm sure you have noticed in your 30+ years of deliveries is that for better or worse, typical coastal style boats have a lot of dead space. It seems that behind ever wall in the liner there is a huge space left unused. Looking at the biggest difference between a 1976 C-30 and a 1988 C-30; is the use of these spaces. They simply added access panels everywhere. This also has the side benefit of allowing more access to the hull. If I ever decide to add any of this stuff, you can bet on the fact that I won't be an idiot with an extension cord. Whatever I put on my boat will be well secured with great thought put into accessibility and long term sustainability. Additionally, I don't desire to keep my decks clear. I keep them clear. I have to. I have to crawl around on those decks. As a side benefit, it's in the spirit of good seamanship. But for me that's not the primary reason. Some of this stuff I'm talking about likely isn't realistically feasible on a small boat. I get that. But at the same time I think it's a worthy discussion to highlight why or why not. Take that dive compressor. Would it fit in my C-30. Probably. Would it be fun to lug into and out of that locker? Likely not. Not counting the effect 300 lbs of dive gear would have on the stern of said boat. But....if you dived a lot and wanted to have it...could you make it work???? I think the answer to that depends on the individual boat. The same goes for the washing machine. Or the mig welder, or the ____________ ,whatever you want to have. Someone said something over at CF that really made a lot of sense to me. they said "a cruising boat is much more than just a sailboat" it's your home, your shop, your bedroom, your kitchen, your storage shed and the garage for your car (dinghy). 

A60: Thanks for your perspective. It made me wonder though, how would that post have read if you wrote it 15 years ago?


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## alanr77

Hello Gary, that is a very nicely outfitted boat you have. Sounds like you put some thought into what you wanted out of it. What kind of heating are you using? I grew up on the Chesapeake Bay, North East River specifically, so I remember how cold it can get. 

Bubble: I don't think it's about that. I don't understand why a lifestyle has to be defined by how others live it. There is a guy at my marina that spent 6+ years outfitting his 27' boat to be a liveaboard that can sail. He has everything on that boat from a generator to a surround sound stereo system. Is it my cup of tea? No. Would I put all that stuff on a 27' boat? No. But at the same time, it's what he wanted to do and it's his version of the cruising lifestyle. He's enjoying it and couldn't care less what other people think of him. His boat is always squared away and I would imagine could be ready to sail in 15 minutes at any given time. My point is, not everyone wants to live differently on the water. Some just want to live on the water.


----------



## seaner97

Thanks for the added perspective. RE: the space thing, though, I think that varies by builder and designer. I've got access to basically my entire hull except one small area that I think was designed for standing charts just aft the starboard nav station and directly behind the icebox, with the notable exception of the three freshwater tanks (there's ALOT of water capacity on my boat), and it is a 1968. I replaced the cabin sole and added some access to the keel/CB trunk and bilge to facilitate any work I may have to do there, but I'll say that Shaw guy was thinking when he drew up the rest of the lockers. Nooks and crannies everywhere with little wasted space. Now if I could just figure out where to put the wine rack...
Given your physical limitations, do you require a sugar scoop to board or is a transom/boarding ladder ok out of a dinghy?


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## capecodda

I have a disabled sister, and have taken disabled people sailing often. Her issues are legs, very strong upper body to compensate.

Interestingly, if your mobility problems are lower extremities, an offshore capable boat can actually be a pretty nice platform to move around. In a good offshore design, there are hand holds everywhere and there is no big gap to cross to get between them. A lot of the newer, bigger, coastal boats don't do this. Less beam is your friend.

Wish you luck with this pursuit.


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## alanr77

S97: Believe it or not, I can get up and down the ladder on the stern. My boat is a 76'. Hull number 332. Standard transom. To get up or down the ladder, I use my good leg and then my knee on the bad leg. It looks funny as hell and requires upper body strength and grip but I wasn't going to stop trying until I figured out a way to do it. So far the hardest thing I've had to do was getting the outboard, a 56 lbs 6hp, from the cockpit to the dinghy and then back up. Trying to stand in a moving dinghy while on one leg and then lifting something as awkward as an outboard proved to be too much. I also have damaged discs in L1 thru L5 along with two in my neck so that lifting and twisting didn't last very long. The last time I tried I spend 2 hours lying on the cockpit floor unable to move. Had to call my wife to get me off the boat. Since then, with the help of some friends, we have come up with a workaround. We got a spring assisted outboard bracket that fits to the left of my exhaust and bilge thru hulls. It lowers far enough that I can pull the dinghy stern to then with the assistance of a block mounted on the stern rail, easily transfer the outboard to and from the big boat. I can move things if I'm on my knees so that was the goal. I can then get into the cockpit, and while on my knees, get the outboard up and off the bracket and into the locker. As a side benefit, in it's lowered position, the outboard could be used as a backup for the inboard, though we haven't tested this yet. Currently, we are trying to devise a way to make weighing anchor easier. I can't just run forward and weigh anchor and then run back to control the boat. We are looking at a way to control the transmission from the anchor locker: that way I could set the auto pilot or tie off the tiller to keep the boat heading in the right direction while I pull up the anchor. Being able to put the boat in gear and take it out without having to leave the foredeck would be ideal. The alternative is to do it all from the cockpit, but in my experience, you usually need someone on deck because things happen up there. None of this matters when my wife is on board but I like going out alone a lot. So we are always working on ways to make it happen.


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## seaner97

alanr77 said:


> S97: Believe it or not, I can get up and down the ladder on the stern. My boat is a 76'. Hull number 332. Standard transom. To get up or down the ladder, I use my good leg and then my knee on the bad leg. It looks funny as hell and requires upper body strength and grip but I wasn't going to stop trying until I figured out a way to do it. So far the hardest thing I've had to do was getting the outboard, a 56 lbs 6hp, from the cockpit to the dinghy and then back up. Trying to stand in a moving dinghy while on one leg and then lifting something as awkward as an outboard proved to be too much. I also have damaged discs in L1 thru L5 along with two in my neck so that lifting and twisting didn't last very long. The last time I tried I spend 2 hours lying on the cockpit floor unable to move. Had to call my wife to get me off the boat. Since then, with the help of some friends, we have come up with a workaround. We got a spring assisted outboard bracket that fits to the left of my exhaust and bilge thru hulls. It lowers far enough that I can pull the dinghy stern to then with the assistance of a block mounted on the stern rail, easily transfer the outboard to and from the big boat. I can move things if I'm on my knees so that was the goal. I can then get into the cockpit, and while on my knees, get the outboard up and off the bracket and into the locker. As a side benefit, in it's lowered position, the outboard could be used as a backup for the inboard, though we haven't tested this yet. Currently, we are trying to devise a way to make weighing anchor easier. I can't just run forward and weigh anchor and then run back to control the boat. We are looking at a way to control the transmission from the anchor locker: that way I could set the auto pilot or tie off the tiller to keep the boat heading in the right direction while I pull up the anchor. Being able to put the boat in gear and take it out without having to leave the foredeck would be ideal. The alternative is to do it all from the cockpit, but in my experience, you usually need someone on deck because things happen up there. None of this matters when my wife is on board but I like going out alone a lot. So we are always working on ways to make it happen.


My suggestions in order:
Power windlass with anchor roller, operable from the pit
Davits (can be used to pulley up stuff from the dinghy as well)
Furler for the Jib (many would put #1, but with your spine and mobility, I'd put it here)
A couple snatch blocks on the boom that you can use to get stuff in and out of the lockers


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## alanr77

CapeC: Definitely true. What surprised me though is that a lowly Catalina 30 fits my requirements very nicely at the moment. The side decks are wide enough that I can crawl on all fours all the way around the boat. The inside has handholds everywhere. You can get from the companionway to the head without touching the floor if you wanted to. With the table in the up position, I installed 1/4" thick angle brackets in key places to make it secure. I can support my weight along the edge of the table anywhere. There really isn't any room to fly anywhere within this boat. It was this way even when I first bought it. Since then, I gutted it and replaced everything to include the bulkheads. I strategically added a few hand holds here and there as needed but it works out well. I had to strengthen everything within the boat, as Catalina liked to just screw things into the liner. This doesn't work when you have to hang off everything for support. So I first re tabbed the hull liner to the hull with epoxy and cloth, then thru bolted all the furniture to the strengthened hull liner. I used to fall a lot so I wanted the things I would be grabbing while falling to stay where they were. As a byproduct, my C-30 is likely quiet a bit stronger than the average C-30. Someday I may start a thread describing everything I changed in the boat so anyone else faced with a handicap can use it to help themselves but I need to finish the boat first. We are just now getting the mast back up after replacing all the standing rigging, running rigging, spreaders and tangs; basically everything except the mast itself. I needed to get a roller furler because I can't easily manage headsails on deck anymore. So it's been a long road but I'm finally getting near the end.


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## alanr77

In light of my last few posts, I guess in a way that was the underlying theme to my interest in some of these mod cons. At the time I started the post I really didn't feel it to be relevant to the information I was trying to elicit from people. But I guess it is relevant because my needs for some of these mod cons are not based on just wanting to be lazy. Realistically, I cannot lug 5 water cans to shore, fill them and bring them back. Likely I'll have to hire locals to help me with certain things and I'm Ok with that. But at the same time, the more I can do on board the better.


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## seaner97

BTW- based on my reading of this, I know you're not looking for thanks, but I'm guessing you lost your leg in the line of duty. Thanks.

I'd also figure out a water maker and refrigeration. A sunshower in the pit might be your best bet to not have to drop a ton of money into a huge boat, or pipe a deck wash to the hot water tank. I've seen some stowable ones that have hot and cold handles on them and drop into a beckson like enclosure. I've yet to have a 75K shower, but I've seen boats where the difference is in the head and the upgrade has cost about that.

Best of luck.


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## Don L

JonEisberg said:


> Assuming yours is in response to bubblehead's post, I always wonder how anyone can so grossly misinterpret the point he and others have been trying to make...
> 
> ;-)


Well you just made an ass out of yourself by assuming anything. I was just making a statement so once again it is you grossly misinterpreting a point to stir up crap!


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## alanr77

Unfortunately its still attached. It's just a useless, painful appendage that they can't cut off (I tried) because a prosthetic would aggravate the condition at the stump. No worries though. The Army has taken excellent care of me and will continue to do so. It is what it is. 

Something I thought of though regarding these "complicated" systems. With the idea of modular systems, lets use the washing machine as an example, the requirements from the boat would simply be power. I think we have come far enough along to say that setting up a system to provide and replenish the power required to run that washing machine is pretty straightforward. I think the manual on it said 240 watts of power to run it. That's 20 amps for a short duration. Considering it would be used maybe twice a week in the tropics, I.E Board shorts and a few T shirts and towels, that seems quite reasonable to me. That would require no more a system to support it that a good water maker. I'm currently set up for 2 8d's and a small starting battery fed by a Pro Mariner 60. I think total amp hours is around 380-400 so @ 50% were looking at 200 ah. Eventually some solar, hydro or wind will supplement this so I don't think it's impossible to do with what my system is capable of supporting. Not saying I'm doing this, but it's possible. I mean were not talking about a full size Maytag here. These things are miniature and designed for the truck and RV market. Being modular, they are self contained and easily removable for service. Not to mention, that washing machine weighs about as much as a couple cases of beer- it's not going to affect an 11,000 pound cruising boat. I'm using the washing machine as the example because it seems to be the most far fetched item on the list of mod cons. Regarding generators, have you seen how small those Honda suitcase gen sets are!?! My god, you could almost put it in a backpack and set it up on the beach. I think my point is that the days of large, complicated support systems and large complicated portable appliances is passing, or has passed. Just some thoughts......


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## JonEisberg

Don0190 said:


> Well you just made an ass out of yourself by assuming anything. I was just making a statement so once again it is you grossly misinterpreting a point to stir up crap!


So, then, would I also be mistaken in assuming you can point to any specific posts/posters in this thread who are _*"against being comfortable on the boat..."*_, or arguing that _*"living on a boat has to be like sleeping on the ground in a tent while crapping in a hole in the ground, getting cool water from a stream and washing with a cup..."
*_
I certainly wouldn't want to "misinterpret" what you wrote, after all...

;-)


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## alanr77

I think it's funny how some of you guys carry on with each other, transcending threads going back for years. LOL Do you guys know each other? I picture in my mind Jon sneaking a fish head into one of Don's lockers in the middle of the night. Or Don putting bird feed all over Jons deck inviting seagulls to do some painting....... And as the beer flows, the funnier it gets.


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## Don L

alanr77 said:


> I think it's funny how some of you guys carry on with each other, transcending threads going back for years. LOL Do you guys know each other? I picture in my mind Jon sneaking a fish head into one of Don's lockers in the middle of the night. Or Don putting bird feed all over Jons deck inviting seagulls to do some painting....... And as the beer flows, the funnier it gets.


Thanks for the tips


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## Don L

JonEisberg said:


> So, then, would I also be mistaken in assuming )


You can assume anything, you're good at that


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## JonEisberg

Don0190 said:


> You can assume anything, you're good at that


Good, I'll go with the one that you're unable to point to anyone here who is actually "against being comfortable on a boat..."

You're free to correct me if that assumption is mistaken, of course...

;-)


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## seaner97

JonEisberg said:


> Don0190 said:
> 
> 
> 
> You can assume anything, you're good at that
> 
> 
> 
> Good, I'll go with the one that you're unable to point to anyone here who is actually "against being comfortable on a boat..."
> 
> You're free to correct me if that assumption is mistaken, of course...
> 
> ;-)
Click to expand...

C'mon boys. (I was going to say girls, but I think they're better behaved). Jon is, of course, technically correct, but we aren't adding to Alsn's search for knowledge, are we?


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## Don L

seaner97;2935986 but we aren't adding to Alsn's search for knowledge said:


> of course we are, it's that you shouldn't listen too much to forum advise


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## seaner97

Don0190 said:


> seaner97;2935986 but we aren't adding to Alsn's search for knowledge said:
> 
> 
> 
> of course we are, it's that you shouldn't listen too much to forum advise
> 
> 
> 
> I think he made it quite clear that he's a big boy and can make that determination on his own, although I do find it sweet that you're looking out for him.
Click to expand...


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## aeventyr60

* "A60: Thanks for your perspective. It made me wonder though, how would that post have read if you wrote it 15 years ago?"*

I think pretty much the same. I went through these types of discussions on early internet forums (97-99) and with other cruisers in person who had spent extensive time at sea while getting ready to go. As time has gone on, I've still kept it fairly simple. Well engineered, robust systems that I can maintain myself. Never thought I was uncomfortable either. The things that give me comfort will be lost on most who will or have not ever gotten out of their own comfort zone.

Sounds like you have your own set of unique challenges ahead. Think you will be fine. Once to sea all the problems, troubles and worries seem to fade away, well for me anyway.


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## MikeOReilly

Can't keep up with the volume here. Alan, you asked about my cruising and the use of a windvane. So far all our cruising has been on the Great Lakes, with most of it on Lake Superior. Last season we sail four of the five lakes to move our boat down to Lake Ontario. Our plan is to head for NFLD next season, and then who knows...

Our Aries is our principle self-steerer. I engage it anytime we're out for more than a few hours, as long as there's enough wind. It a common myth that you can't use a vane for coastal sailing. Simply not true. Sure, you may have to tweak it along the way, but you also have to tweak your sails, so what's the big deal?

Simply put, I would rank a good vane near the top of my cruising necessity list. It's great kit that works simply and well. 

Alan, you keep alluding to a significant disability. Your needs will obviously be different than mine. My approach mirrors Jon's. Our boat is very comfortable, sound and safe. It doesn't have all the items some here seem to insist on. Just not needed on our boat. Other people have different needs. So be it. 


Why go fast, when you can go slow


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## hellsop

Don0190 said:


> - It would have a queen centerline berth. We need to get up at night and crawling over each other to do so gets old.
> - It would have good size shower and the water/power capacity to take a good hot shower regularly and it would need to be able to hold us without banging an elbow every time you try to wash something
> - It would have a gallery large to to hold more than 1 butt to be in it at a time
> - I would have at table large enough to play a double 12 domino game (knocks out most center cockpit boats)
> - it would have a good size freezer/frig for obvious reasons
> - it would have enough fuel to motor at least 500 miles because we aren't getting younger and sometimes just want to get there
> - it wouldn't have a bunch of steep steps to get down into the boat
> - with wouldn't take a gymnast to work on the engine or get to the bottom of lockers
> - the cockpit wouldn't require you to step up on the settees to get around the helm wheel
> - it would be 45-50' because I know that is what it will take plus add the other space, storage and comfort a couple would like
> - it would have a berth that makes a good sea berth other that the floor or the salon (good double aft berth would work)
> -it would have an easy to handle sailplan even if that isn't as fast and would have oversize winches
> - it would have a dry ride
> - it would sail fairy flat and more than 15 degrees heel would not be needed to get to 80% hull speed on a close reach
> - it would be easy to get on/off to the dock/dinghy/launch (knees)
> - space for a guess couple, but not so great that they over-stay their welcome


Heh. You want a Gemini.

I'm not knocking that. I want one too.


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## JonEisberg

seaner97 said:


> C'mon boys. (I was going to say girls, but I think they're better behaved). Jon is, of course, technically correct, but we aren't adding to Alsn's search for knowledge, are we?


Aw, c'mon, man... I've 'contributed' my fair share to this thread, aren't I entitled to have a bit of fun, as well?

;-))


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## aeventyr60

Capt Len said:


> "You never know what you might encounter, once you dare to get off the boat."..That brought back a memory. If I may drift a bit here, We brought our laundry into town to find a washer. Did that and jumped a bus to Malaysia for passport stamp . Return 3 days later with our chocolate and liquor ,as we got off the bus., a motor bike taxi pulls up and says 'get laundry?' The whole little town knew . Back to our regular programming


A local sweetheart brings us tea in the boatyard, sometimes lunch. Laundry services as well. Part of the local scene of helpful folks out here. Maybe not all the modern conveniences, but sure makes us comfortable.


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## chall03

I think the pursuit of simplicity aboard a sailboat is akin to sensible seamanship and good economics. Furthermore philosophically for us it also is a deliberate lifestyle pursuit that goes hand in hand with the reasons why we want cruise. 

The rub of course is how you define simplicity and then set that balance of simplicity vs comfort as it applies to you. 

Despite my stated desire to remain simple, in reality we actually fit in the middle somewhere on that balance scale.

The Pardeys (who continually challenge me to keep it simple and just work on being a better sailor) would find several questionable conveniences on my boat yet at the same time many here would consider our boat to be fairly primitive. 

My opinion (and it is just that, no more no less. Based on what worked for us coastal sailing on 35ft)

- We also really wanted a below deck shower but in actual fact it was infrequently used. I liked the solar shower on deck, (and my idea of luxury was a waterfall in the middle of nowhere where you can shower while listening to the birds).
- I bought a water maker and never installed it. I sold it on eBay. I would buy one again for bluewater cruising however.
- We had a cheap 12v LED/DVD. No thats not keeping it simple.... But we have a 4 year old, cut me some slack 
- Refrigeration rocks. But in the past 4 years I have had to replace the thermostat, rewire it, replace the electronics and the fan. Technology = maintenance.
- We have a large alternator and 200w solar and a reasonable batter bank. We have a small inverter. Never had a generator. You don't miss what you don't have. 
-We have Calframo fans. Not into AC.
-We have a metho stove and no gas on the boat. Our personal preference.
-We have a hand grinder for our coffee beans( single origin, organic from Byron Bay of course ) and a french press. 
-We have an autopilot, a laptop as chart plotter and speed/wind/depth instruments. Nothing on the boat talks to anything else other than the humans. 
-We have too many ithings.


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## seaner97

JonEisberg said:


> Aw, c'mon, man... I've 'contributed' my fair share to this thread, aren't I entitled to have a bit of fun, as well?
> 
> ;-))


Absolutely. Never get in the way of fun. But the pissing did seem to be escalating and I didn't want to get wet...


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## Capt Len

Then you know you're squatting downwind.


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## seaner97

Everyone is when it comes to Don.


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## outbound

Wife bought a kerig for the boat. Friend turned me on to Aeropress. Hand grind to espresso fine. Easy clean up compared to French press. Think French press a PIA. Think Aeropress best thing since sliced bread. Kerig a waste of space except for cappuccinos with company at anchor. 
Life without music sucks. Have two zones and sub woofer running thro a Fusion system. Have controls down below and on raymarine. Alt energy keeps up even with AP and radar running. Life is good.
Have big flat screen on main bulk head. It has been on for two movies, a Yankees Red Sox game, three AC races and one Nova show in the last two years. Rather read with stereo on.
My soon to be ex-house was complicated. Always had a to do list or a call into one of the trades ( well guy, plumber, electrician, irrigation , gen contractor etc.). Boat is my new house and actually much less complicated and wife can figure out much fewer gotta haves. Other than rare visits to/from sailmaker/ rigger / diesel wrench can do most everything myself. 
Like talking with you guys on the Internet. Like having a nice shower. Like my music. Like a G&T sitting on the sugar scoop with my feet in the water. Love my boat. I'm not of the mind set of Brent. I do think to leave no footprint or a small footprint is important but also think a cultured pleasant life has meaning. 
Every day this week we' ve gone to a new place. Just gentle cruising with the bride around Narragansett bay and south east mass. No heavy lifting. Dinner, drinks and talk with friends doing the same. Having a nice boat with good ambience enhances the experience.


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## alanr77

A60: Thanks, I just wanted to maybe get a glimpse of your train of thought when you bought the 53’ boat with all the systems. It would seem that at the time, you may have wanted those things and I was trying to understand why. After your first post about it being broken, I understand why you got away from it. Some of my issues fade out there for me as well. When it all first started and I was confined to a wheelchair for two plus years, my wife and friends would get me down to my boat sometimes, as my wife went down to check the bilge and run the engine monthly. Everyone said it was the only time I would smile. 

MikeO: I’ve watched people using them coastal. The only time I got to actually use one though was while sailing coastal and I found it incredibly difficult to learn how to use one in the fickle winds I was facing at the time. I am sure, and as you have said, that once you get some experience with one and can feel it working properly, they could be used anywhere you have wind. I doubt that my current boat will get one. But who knows? I buy gear based on need and if I get to the point where I feel I need one it will happen. So far I’ve done ok with a small electric auto while motoring and a tied off tiller and balanced sail plan while sailing. To be honest, often the tiller gets tied off and I steer a course with the headsail. Though I’m sure this would have its drawbacks once further afield or for longer than a few days.

Hell: Got to admit, the big cat I sailed on was a lesson in comfort. It was the closest thing to my big cabin cruisers that I’ve ever been on. While at the helm, if I closed my eyes and you told me I was on a power boat I would have believed you. Not to mention, sitting on the front deck was pretty amazing. (do they even call it a front deck?) Having said that, it was not my style of sailing. My wife and I both said the same thing when we got back, “it doesn’t feel like I was out sailing today”. It was a very nice boat, sailed by a very good friend, but you really have to want to sail a cat to enjoy one. Just not for me. Though I never turn down rides! 

Jon: Absolutely man. You have definitely contributed as has everyone. Forums are not supposed to read like a book. Conversations go all over the place in normal life. I mean, who wants to stand there and listen to a guy who just spouts facts and numbers through the entire conversation?? He’s the guy that everyone slowly slides away from! You have a unique perspective because you have gotten to play with some of the toys I can only read about. I’ve read some of your stories within some cruising sites/rags and yeah, you’ve had some good times. Beautiful boat you sail by the way. I first fell in love with that color scheme when I saw the Triton Glissando a long time ago. I’ve since painted two boats in that color scheme. 

Chall: Sounds nicely done. How long do you usually stay on board? If you didn’t have children, would you still have bought a 35’ boat?
Solar5: I had to go back and find your post as there has been quite a bit of traffic in between. I really like the C36. It solves most of the space issues found on the C30. I looked at all three, 30-34-36 and felt that if I were to go larger, and stay within the Catalina line, the 36 would suit me very well. Not to mention, they have gone all over the place so apparently others feel they work out pretty good as well. It’s a lot of boat for the money. You seem to have pretty much everything on board to make things pretty comfortable. Have you had any major issues with any of the installed equipment?

Another point of view that I have come across in different places is the idea that once you get somewhere, after things are stowed and the anchor is set, people want to enjoy the surroundings. Participate in the dives, explore the islands, cities or towns. And I agree. But what happens when you are done with that and want to return to the boat? I have been to an anchorage in a very spartan C25; and had dinner aboard a larger Hunter that was very VERY well equipped. We were originally eating in the cockpit but a summer rainstorm blew in and we moved everything down below. It was late summer in Florida so it was a little warm outside. The guy pressed a button, started the generator, which we could barely hear running, turned on the AC and we enjoyed our dinner. He didn’t have a dishwasher or anything but he did have pressure hot water. Rinsing off the plates was incredibly easy and we continued to hang out until the storm passed. I remember it being very nice inside with warm lighting and comfortable cushions to sit on. The food was great and the drinks were cold. Afterwards, when I rowed my dinghy back to my boat, I was immediately struck with a bit of envy. I turned on my Coleman lantern and sat there in my settee, sweating and being eaten by bugs. Granted, my view was the same. The air smelled just as nice and the water was just as warm. But I couldn’t help but think, if this is supposed to be about enjoyment and fun….why would you want to be uncomfortable? Now since then I do have electric lights and socks to make my hatches breathe better. But I still remember that feeling of being on the other end of the spectrum. 

Outbound: That is definitely a pleasant life. What you described to me did bring a smile to face. In a way, I guess maybe that’s something I want to experience. I think one of the best ways to figure out what style of cruising fits a person is to try and experience all of it. Then a decision can be made as to where you want to fall within that spectrum. This thread is really starting to get good. We have people on here who advocate simplicity and outfit their boats accordingly, people who have downsized and people who bought right the first time. Then we have people who are sailing 400-500k boats and enjoy the benefits of having that boat. The thread is in fact becoming diverse. I looked up the boat you have and that is definitely up there on the spectrum. I was setting the bar at the 53+ Amel’s but your boat is easily in or above that realm. If I may ask, what made you choose a boat of that caliber over a large Morgan or Bavaria? Did you step aboard any larger Catalina’s or Hunter’s? Do you use the capabilities of that boat or did you buy it for a different reason? Was the cost worth it or do you think you could have gotten the same enjoyment out of a 200k boat?


----------



## outbound

The main purpose of a cruising boat is to sail the ocean blue. Smack may feel comfortable doing it on his Hunter. I feel safer and more secure when out side helicopter range on my boat. She has the most pleasant motion in the snot of any boat I ever been on under <70'. She pushes on through at all points of sail so 170-200m/d is the norm. I can (and do ) passages with 2-3 on board. This is the first and only time I will ever own a new boat. I want to cruise, see new countries, not be dependent on shoreside services. 
Jon got it pegged his way. This is my way. And the wife enjoys it as well. She's more important than the boat. Having her not being scared, looking forward to the next sail not only the next destination is key.


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## seaner97

outbound said:


> And the wife enjoys it as well. She's more important than the boat. Having her not being scared, looking forward to the next sail not only the next destination is key.


+100 to that


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## boathooked

alanr77 said:


> My point is, not everyone wants to live differently on the water. Some just want to live on the water.


Well said. I am a power boat owner (40') who has always dreamed of sailing/cruising and am finally working to make it happen.

I am looking at make a "home" on the water, one that I can move around the Florida/Caribbean area (and possibly further), supporting a diving habit. :laugh For the first few years I will still be working full-time (can live anywhere near a major airport) with my girl, and may/will have at least one of three kids coming to visit as they can, so at least two, if not three cabins, is a must, as is AC, watermaker, hot shower, etc.

I am looking for a modern, comfortable, ocean-capable boat that DOES have all the amenities of home. Of course I am an IT geek who also loves to get his hands greasy, so tearing into something to fix it is not an issue.

I do not want a bare-bones cabin in the woods, I want more. Will it have its own set of challenges? Yup, but it is something I am willing to deal with to get what I want. With that said I also find it admirable those that can live a simpler way on the water....just not my cup of tea.


----------



## alctel

alanr77 said:


> ALC: Nice! You pretty much have all the items modern production boats of that size are coming with as standard now. Those items have become increasingly important to people. Where I live, I can tell you each and every boat that goes out sailing every week and my memory is not very good. Most sit at the dock, and to comfortably sit at the dock, those features make life much better. Did you install or have installed any of that gear or did the boat come with it? Have you found it to be reliable or does most of it stay in a state of repair?


It came with pressure water and the hot water tank, but I replaced every single bit of plumbing and put a new hotwater tank in when I bought it. The stove came with the boat, but I redid the propane system.

The fridge/freezer and the diesel heater I installed myself from scratch, though the fridge/freezer is a dropin engel so not too much installation needed.

It all works reliably - I tried to pick brands that were known for being low-maintenance and keep on top of stuff pretty well. I liveaboard - it's the only place I have, everything I own fits on the boat (and my car, though selling that soon) and I really wanted hot water - and to be honest, pressure/hot water is really not a huge pain to install/maintain. And I say that as someone who hates plumbing with a fiery passion. The fridge/freezer was because I really like a cold beer and icecream .


----------



## alanr77

Hello BoatH: You are not alone. I have met a lot of people who think exactly the way you do. I haven't really went one direction or the other, but it is interesting to hear the perspective from all sides. 

OutB: My wife would agree with you.  Like I said before, this dream has always been my thing but she does and has stuck around through all of it. Pushing 10 years now. She grew up sailing out in the islands of Washington State and laughs at our murky, shallow silt filled water on the south east. She's always been on board with cruising a bit but is unwilling to do it in any of my small boats. She wants to go yachting not camping.  As a matter of fact she didn't seriously entertain the idea of actually going with me until we stepped aboard a Catalina 445. So down the road, that may become relevant to me as it would be nice for the life partner to share the experience. Financially none of these boats are an issue. Well maybe your boat would be a stretch new....... Regardless, a 445 is WAY more than I would need right now or even within the next 5 years. From my own observations, it's the under 35 sailboats that actually sail the most. The bigger boats just don't suit a quick evening sail as well, it would seem. Not a rule, just an observation. 

"I want to cruise, see new countries, not be dependent on shoreside services" There is a lot to be said about that statement. It can and does go both ways. But my post about the experience on the Hunter definitely provoked some thought for me to totally agree with you. 

Going back to my original post, the ability to CHOOSE my level of comfort while out and about is important to me. To be able to choose whether to have the cabin air conditioned or to let the sea breeze blow through seems nice. The ability to choose to take a shower, with hot pressure water in a shower stall or in the cockpit with a solar shower would be nice. The freedom a water maker gives should not be underestimated. I've always had to ration water on my boats. I can't even imagine what it's like to have the ability to "just make more". The ability to dive as much as I want, anywhere I want would be nice. I've been in situations where we happened to come across a wreck but I couldn't dive because we had no air. And this is coastal. I can only imagine how often that could happen further afield. While looking at Amel's I came across a really good blog/youtube channel called SV Delos. Anyone who says they are not having a good time cruising might be a little wacky. That boat kind of defines convenience. Yet at the same time I can understand the point that Jon and others have made. There is a price to those commodities that goes beyond money. Not including breakdowns, the maintenance on all that stuff, added to the normal maintenance of a functioning yacht, could take up a nice chunk of time. One just has to decide if that time is worth the convenience gained. For certain items, I can empirically say yes. Others, maybe not. I'm not sure if this is even relevant when discussing some of this stuff, but I know that so far, when I've installed systems in my boats, I install them correctly and to published standards. Sometimes even above standards. I think of things like water exposure, vibration effects and heat. So far, I really have not had any issues with my equipment. Whether this approach would make a difference to say, a refrigerator, who knows? But I'd like to think it would. 

From my own experiences, I have seen a lot of failures that were blamed on the equipment but in reality could be traced back to a shoddy installation or even more common, a shoddy maintenance schedule. People take shortcuts or sometimes just don't know or have enough skills to operate and maintain a piece of equipment. Then the equipment fails and they blacklist the entire manufacturer......it could never be JoE SeAmaNs fault that he didn't know how to use it.....think damaged furler from cranking on a wrapped halyard with a winch....when I ripped out the entire electrical system of my boat, I seriously found no less than 11 extension cords with the ends cut off scattered all throughout......and the guy wondered why the steaming light also turned on the bilge blower......SMH. So I have to ask, how many failures of mod cons are really because the equipment was junk?

Outbound: Almost forgot, do you have the port chart table option? Centerline queen forward cabin model?


----------



## outbound

Centerline queen forward, double quarterberth aft port, nav station starboard facing forward then head with electric toilet ( manual in forward stateroom on port side with shower and pull out sink), then walk in shower, then work room.
Wife 4'10" so sissy bars with lower bar curved in for her to stand on. All working lines brought aft except pole lift and spin halyard. Winches powered two speeds. Lowered still to shower so head door opens inward. Have hard Bimini with solar on top. Have hard dodger with two opening hatches on top. Added hand holds in cabins, galley and companionway. Have double fans in staterooms, saloon has four , galley two. All cushions ultra suede. All lights LEDs and red or white including lights under hard dodger and Bimini. Low intensity step lighting at companionway and into forward cabin. All surfaces have fiddles. All berths either lee clothes or leeboards. Saloon table goes up and down. Sleep 7 but 2-5 is the "right" number. Drove builder crazy as elimited ALL exterior wood. Even the cockpit table. No more Epiphanes for me.
Sails- 135 genny, 90 Solent , storm jib , main with three reefs on dutchman. Parasailor for ddw to 100. CF pole but Al stick.
Wouldn't change a thing. Happy camper except now sitting on anchor waiting for T storms to past by.


----------



## JonEisberg

chall03 said:


> I think the pursuit of simplicity aboard a sailboat is akin to sensible seamanship and good economics. Furthermore philosophically for us it also is a deliberate lifestyle pursuit that goes hand in hand with the reasons why we want cruise.
> 
> The rub of course is how you define simplicity and then set that balance of simplicity vs comfort as it applies to you.
> 
> Despite my stated desire to remain simple, in reality we actually fit in the middle somewhere on that balance scale.
> 
> The Pardeys (who continually challenge me to keep it simple and just work on being a better sailor) would find several questionable conveniences on my boat yet at the same time many here would consider our boat to be fairly primitive.


Obviously, I'm in full agreement with that point of view... But as always with these sorts of discussions, the virtual impossibility of agreement on such relative notions of "comfort", or "convenience" among those who sail a broad range of boats, it's difficult to come to any specifics that apply to all across the board... Don may think some are arguing against being "comfortable" while on a boat, but no doubt there are owners of 80-foot Oysters who wonder why someone like Don would ever tolerate the 'discomfort' of living aboard a boat as 'modest' as his... ;-) By the same token, many of his 'requirements' for cruising comfort on a boat of his ideal size range of 45-50 feet, are simply out of the question on a boat the size of mine... So, I accept a lesser degree of comfort not because I _desire_ it, but because I have no other logical alternative...

I think one of the biggest misperceptions held by many, is that "simplicity" and "comfort/convenience" are somehow fundamentally at odds, one can't have one without compromising the other... For example, one can approach the 'luxury' of a bountiful water supply either with a watermaker, or an extra-generous amount of tankage, coupled with an effective rain catchment system... The former may be fine aboard a 45-50 footer, the latter the better way to go on a boat as small as mine, they're simply different/more appropriate approaches to the same desire for 'comfort', when it comes to having plenty of water... But if one really _needs_ to leave the sink faucet running non-stop while shaving, in the long run you're gonna be making the cruising lifestyle a bit more complicated than it really needs to be... 



chall03 said:


> - We had a cheap 12v LED/DVD. No thats not keeping it simple.... But we have a 4 year old, cut me some slack


I don't see such a thing as being frivolous, or a departure from 'simplicity', at all... What could be simpler than a device that only requires a 12V cigarette outlet? Why would I deny myself the pleasure of being able to watch a DVD, or some broadcast TV if available?

What I do find revealing about these discussions, however, is how narrowly focused the notions of comfort and convenience tend to be towards purely 'domestic' items... For example, some of my more vital 'conveniences' are things like a 12V oil change pump, an oil bypass filter setup that allows some extension of change intervals, or an onboard fuel polishing system... Over the years, I've found it to be quite "convenient" to have an absence of problems with fuel, after all... And, I derive no small measure of "comfort" in knowing my fuel is as clean as a whistle...

;-)


----------



## seaner97

JonEisberg said:


> chall03 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think the pursuit of simplicity aboard a sailboat is akin to sensible seamanship and good economics. Furthermore philosophically for us it also is a deliberate lifestyle pursuit that goes hand in hand with the reasons why we want cruise.
> 
> The rub of course is how you define simplicity and then set that balance of simplicity vs comfort as it applies to you.
> 
> Despite my stated desire to remain simple, in reality we actually fit in the middle somewhere on that balance scale.
> 
> The Pardeys (who continually challenge me to keep it simple and just work on being a better sailor) would find several questionable conveniences on my boat yet at the same time many here would consider our boat to be fairly primitive.
> 
> 
> 
> Obviously, I'm in full agreement with that point of view... But as always with these sorts of discussions, the virtual impossibility of agreement on such relative notions of "comfort", or "convenience" among those who sail a broad range of boats, it's difficult to come to any specifics that apply to all across the board... Don may think some are arguing against being "comfortable" while on a boat, but no doubt there are owners of 80-foot Oysters who wonder why someone like Don would ever tolerate the 'discomfort' of living aboard a boat as 'modest' as his... ;-) By the same token, many of his 'requirements' for cruising comfort on a boat of his ideal size range of 45-50 feet, are simply out of the question on a boat the size of mine... So, I accept a lesser degree of comfort not because I _desire_ it, but because I have no other logical alternative...
> 
> I think one of the biggest misperceptions held by many, is that "simplicity" and "comfort/convenience" are somehow fundamentally at odds, one can't have one without compromising the other... For example, one can approach the 'luxury' of a bountiful water supply either with a watermaker, or an extra-generous amount of tankage, coupled with an effective rain catchment system... The former may be fine aboard a 45-50 footer, the latter the better way to go on a boat as small as mine, they're simply different/more appropriate approaches to the same desire for 'comfort', when it comes to having plenty of water... But if one really _needs_ to leave the sink faucet running non-stop while shaving, in the long run you're gonna be making the cruising lifestyle a bit more complicated than it really needs to be...
> 
> 
> 
> chall03 said:
> 
> 
> 
> - We had a cheap 12v LED/DVD. No thats not keeping it simple.... But we have a 4 year old, cut me some slack
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't see such a thing as being frivolous, or a departure from 'simplicity', at all... What could be simpler than a device that only requires a 12V cigarette outlet? Why would I deny myself the pleasure of being able to watch a DVD, or some broadcast TV if available?
> 
> What I do find revealing about these discussions, however, is how narrowly focused the notions of comfort and convenience tend to be towards purely 'domestic' items... For example, some of my more vital 'conveniences' are things like a 12V oil change pump, an oil bypass filter setup that allows some extension of change intervals, or an onboard fuel polishing system... Over the years, I've found it to be quite "convenient" to have an absence of problems with fuel, after all... And, I derive no small measure of "comfort" in knowing my fuel is as clean as a whistle...
> 
> ;-)
Click to expand...

As I have pointed out/admitted, I'm not the long distance cruiser/liveaboard that some here are, but some of this ends up being about how you alot your funds. And some is about priorities and tolerances. I have, only once, lived in a house with ac and found I rarely used it. I just kept moving north until I liked the climate. I would consider ac and a TV antenna the ultimate luxury items on a boat. But others would disagree, and that's ok. But if you've got money and space and all your systems are backed up and bulletproof, buy whatever you want. As long as you're having fun and not skimping on the essentials to run your ac....


----------



## chall03

alanr77 said:


> Chall: Sounds nicely done. How long do you usually stay on board? If you didn't have children, would you still have bought a 35' boat?


The longest we have stayed onboard was 8 months and 3000nm coastal( At that stage it was only 3 of us).

Without the children I wouldn't necessarily of gone to 35ft( with our centre cockpit we have two separate, proper sleeping cabins) but would still probably be in the 32-36 range.
*In the interest of full disclosure we are however now looking for a bigger boat in the 42-45' range.

Out- We were just given an Aeropress. My first attempt on the boat with it was last weekend and I don't know what I did wrong but I completely fluffed it. :eek


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## Omatako

aeventyr60 said:


> No serious requirements for cruisers from the NZ government. If anything they have made it easier by extending time yachts can spend here.


Firstly, it's not about staying, it's about leaving. And secondly it's not about foreign cruisers, it's about NZ boats. And finally it's not some outdated archaic rule, it's active right now and is enforced every time an NZ boat leaves on a foreign voyage - that means if I go to New Caledonia in March I need a CAT 1 inspection before I leave - when I come back in May and stay for a week and then leave for Fiji, I need a brand new, fresh CAT 1 inspection before I leave again, the one that took me to New Cal 3 months ago expired when I cleared into back NZ.

Frankly I wish they would re-introduce it for foreign boats because every time some half-baked cruiser gets himself into trouble in NZ rescue area, it costs the NZ tax payer 1/2 a million bucks. And the geographical range of NZ rescue area is that big it'll make your eyes water. And I've seen some amazingly dodgy boats arrive here and leave with no restrictions.

But I know that's not what the cruising fraternity wants - free rescue is good rescue.

Sorry I'm really drifting now - will stop.


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## outbound

Trick is
Put in coffee. Use a lot . Pour in hot water and immediately put on plunger. They give you s stirrer . Use it to spread epoxy or 4500. Once plunger is in no leaks. Wait to plunge. As soon as you are done twist off bottom. But don't plunge further. Put over trash can or storage container if you bring home for compost. Then plunge. Spent coffee comes out like a hockey puck. Wipe bottom. Good to go for next cup if you are making several otherwise wash and store. Think it's the only way to make coffee when it's bumpy. Can do in sink wedged in corner and no chance to get scalded.


----------



## outbound

Agree different folks-different boats. Even a niche market such as Outbounds are all different. Hell the boat two after mine has three air conditioners, an separate ice maker and enough global communication gear to telecommute meetings and film a documentionary and stream it live. One after me has one powered winch no AC and no alt energy or I think even genset. Who is happier. Both of them.
Also +1 on anything making maintenance easier. Love flicking a switch and the oil comes out. Woo hoo!


----------



## MikeOReilly

To reiterate what Jon said a while back, simple and frugal does not equal inconvenient or uncomfortable. What does become uncomfortable is when systems are mismatched with the resources to maintain and support them. Those with lots of money and who are never far from land-based resources, OR those who are highly skilled in the ways of maintenance, OR people who have lots of time, can be quite comfortable with all the modern tools of a small suburban home. And why not ... if you can manage it.

Most of us will fall somewhat short in the unlimited finances, super-amazing skills department or unlimited time. So, know thyself. Know your abilities, your resources, your needs, and match appropriately. 

Bottom line is, you gotta love who you are. Go with what works for you.


----------



## seaner97

MikeOReilly said:


> To reiterate what Jon said a while back, simple and frugal does not equal inconvenient or uncomfortable. What does become uncomfortable is when systems are mismatched with the resources to maintain and support them. Those with lots of money and who are never far from land-based resources, OR those who are highly skilled in the ways of maintenance, OR people who have lots of time, can be quite comfortable with all the modern tools of a small suburban home. And why not ... if you can manage it.
> 
> Most of us will fall somewhat short in the unlimited finances, super-amazing skills department or unlimited time. So, know thyself. Know your abilities, your resources, your needs, and match appropriately.
> 
> Bottom line is, you gotta love who you are. Go with what works for you.


And don't ignore your limitations. Embrace and mitigate them where possible.


----------



## JonEisberg

MikeOReilly said:


> To reiterate what Jon said a while back, simple and frugal does not equal inconvenient or uncomfortable. What does become uncomfortable is when systems are mismatched with the resources to maintain and support them. Those with lots of money and who are never far from land-based resources, OR those who are highly skilled in the ways of maintenance, OR people who have lots of time, can be quite comfortable with all the modern tools of a small suburban home. And why not ... if you can manage it.
> 
> Most of us will fall somewhat short in the unlimited finances, super-amazing skills department or unlimited time. So, know thyself. Know your abilities, your resources, your needs, and match appropriately.
> 
> Bottom line is, you gotta love who you are. Go with what works for you.


It's already been referred to earlier, but I've always thought it was a shame that Don Casey & Lew Hackler's excellent SENSIBLE CRUISING: THE THOREAU APPROACH has never gained a wider readership... Even for those planning to head off in larger and more fully tricked-out yachts, there's many great lessons to be found in this book, and the mindset that will pay dividends no matter which end of the scale you fall into...

I've also often thought those planning to head off into the Blue Yonder for an extended or open-ended period for the first time, should be required to spend a day or two as a fly on the wall in a place like the laundromat adjacent to Exuma Docking Services down in Chicken Harbor...

Virtually guaranteed, at some point some variation of the theme _"just biding my time... until he gets this thing out of his system..."_ is bound to arise...

;-))


----------



## alanr77

Outbound: Yeah that is a really nice layout. On my last two boats, I did the whole 12 coats of Epiphanes on all exterior teak. Along with the protective coat every three to four months. Lots of ooohs and ahhhs at the dock but no one was ever around when I had to do the work. Never again. I’ve been on a mission to replace teak with stainless on the outside and the teak that is left was cleaned and will remain it’s natural color. It would seem that most working yachts go this route, while dock queens are either immaculate or covered in peeling varnish.

Jon: “What I do find revealing about these discussions, however, is how narrowly focused the notions of comfort and convenience tend to be towards purely 'domestic' items...
Absolutely. I think people were covering domestic items because that’s what I started out asking about. But you’re right. That kind of stuff is important as well and is definitely worth the time to discuss. My particular boat offers easy access to the engine on all sides. But I’ve worked on boats where I truly had to think, did they intend for you to pull the engine to change the oil? There seems to be a certain generation where this was more common. I do think though from what I’ve seen, modern boats are getting better.

Oma: Yep that’s it. I was mistakenly under the impression it applied to everyone wanting to get a visa. I did not pay that much attention to what they were saying though as I was not heading there at the time. 

MikeO: Definitely. I’m a good example of what you are saying. To some this is crazy but I enjoy the build as much as the sailing itself. I’ve always been like that with everything from race cars audiophile equipment. Once it’s built, and problems worked out, I usually pass it on to someone else to use and I start something new. This is my third 20’+ sailboat that I’ve restored from the keel up and I’ve done two mahogany Chris Craft runabouts and two Chris Craft Constellation cabin cruisers. Throw in a few Boston Whalers and it should be obvious what I enjoy. Now don’t get me wrong, I LOVE sailing. This has been one of the few pastimes where you can never really conquer anything. With many hobbies, you can get to a 90% subject matter expert level and it’s really not worth going further. Sailing however, gives you a few things that can never be conquered, along with a lifetime of skills honed to best deal with those things. It’s the perfect sport for someone who has to learn something every day. You can make your boat as simple or as complicated as you like, but the wind, waves and weather are always technical and will absorb as much attention as you want to give them. And then the minute you think you’ve got it handled, it changes and you start all over again. I love it. 

“"just biding my time... until he gets this thing out of his system..." THAT’S HILARIOUS!!!!
I’ve always wondered about the long term sustainability of cruising. I’m talking coastal at the moment but the same could be applied to long distance. One would think that if you want to do this for a long time, any mod con that would make your life easier would be most welcome. Though like Jon mentioned earlier, his boat may not realistically fit some of this stuff and he would require a bigger boat to do so. I think I covered that early on with the next boat list phenomenon, which definitely applies. Considering a significant other, doesn’t it make sense that they would be more likely to “bid time longer” if they were say, on outbounds 46 as opposed to Jim Baldwins Pearson Triton? I mean, it never once crossed my mind years ago that my Coleman lantern and warm beer were even close to as good a life as the guys on that Hunter. I mean seriously, that experience really shaped the future of my cruising experience. I mean, and the end of the day, what are we really doing this for? Because we enjoy it I hope. 
Furthermore, if you take a boat, whatever size, and starting at the batteries, set it up to handle these mod cons; make changing filters easy, make fuse blocks easy to check, ensure the stuff is as isolated from vibration and sea spray as possible. Ensure the wiring is sized to handle the amperage, pumps are sized properly and are fed clean water/fuel ect. Maintain this stuff on schedule, I.E this week I’m cleaning out all my water strainers, next week I’m checking all my hoses for abrasion or damage and so on. Treat this stuff the same way you treat your rigging and steering hardware. Yeah it adds stuff to your work list, but I don’t see how this could really be a bad thing if you want to have any of it. From your own experiences, what are the common failure points of this equipment such as;

Inverters, generators, solar panels and charge controllers, water makers, refrigerators and freezers, air conditioning systems, hot water heaters, water pressure pumps, pressurized water on the foredeck or in the cockpit, self-contained modular washer/dryer units, small dive tank compressors, wind generators, wireless routers and hotspots, radar on a smaller vessel, 12 volt appliances like coffee makers, toasters and blenders just to name a few.


----------



## outbound

Alan once you figure all this stuff out ? do you want to crew?


----------



## aeventyr60

alanr77 said:


> Outbound: Yeah that is a really nice layout. On my last two boats, I did the whole 12 coats of Epiphanes on all exterior teak. Along with the protective coat every three to four months. Lots of ooohs and ahhhs at the dock but no one was ever around when I had to do the work. Never again. I've been on a mission to replace teak with stainless on the outside and the teak that is left was cleaned and will remain it's natural color. It would seem that most working yachts go this route, while dock queens are either immaculate or covered in peeling varnish.
> 
> Jon: "What I do find revealing about these discussions, however, is how narrowly focused the notions of comfort and convenience tend to be towards purely 'domestic' items...
> Absolutely. I think people were covering domestic items because that's what I started out asking about. But you're right. That kind of stuff is important as well and is definitely worth the time to discuss. My particular boat offers easy access to the engine on all sides. But I've worked on boats where I truly had to think, did they intend for you to pull the engine to change the oil? There seems to be a certain generation where this was more common. I do think though from what I've seen, modern boats are getting better.
> 
> Oma: Yep that's it. I was mistakenly under the impression it applied to everyone wanting to get a visa. I did not pay that much attention to what they were saying though as I was not heading there at the time.
> 
> MikeO: Definitely. I'm a good example of what you are saying. To some this is crazy but I enjoy the build as much as the sailing itself. I've always been like that with everything from race cars audiophile equipment. Once it's built, and problems worked out, I usually pass it on to someone else to use and I start something new. This is my third 20'+ sailboat that I've restored from the keel up and I've done two mahogany Chris Craft runabouts and two Chris Craft Constellation cabin cruisers. Throw in a few Boston Whalers and it should be obvious what I enjoy. Now don't get me wrong, I LOVE sailing. This has been one of the few pastimes where you can never really conquer anything. With many hobbies, you can get to a 90% subject matter expert level and it's really not worth going further. Sailing however, gives you a few things that can never be conquered, along with a lifetime of skills honed to best deal with those things. It's the perfect sport for someone who has to learn something every day. You can make your boat as simple or as complicated as you like, but the wind, waves and weather are always technical and will absorb as much attention as you want to give them. And then the minute you think you've got it handled, it changes and you start all over again. I love it.
> 
> ""just biding my time... until he gets this thing out of his system..." THAT'S HILARIOUS!!!!
> I've always wondered about the long term sustainability of cruising. I'm talking coastal at the moment but the same could be applied to long distance. One would think that if you want to do this for a long time, any mod con that would make your life easier would be most welcome. Though like Jon mentioned earlier, his boat may not realistically fit some of this stuff and he would require a bigger boat to do so. I think I covered that early on with the next boat list phenomenon, which definitely applies. Considering a significant other, doesn't it make sense that they would be more likely to "bid time longer" if they were say, on outbounds 46 as opposed to Jim Baldwins Pearson Triton? I mean, it never once crossed my mind years ago that my Coleman lantern and warm beer were even close to as good a life as the guys on that Hunter. I mean seriously, that experience really shaped the future of my cruising experience. I mean, and the end of the day, what are we really doing this for? Because we enjoy it I hope.
> Furthermore, if you take a boat, whatever size, and starting at the batteries, set it up to handle these mod cons; make changing filters easy, make fuse blocks easy to check, ensure the stuff is as isolated from vibration and sea spray as possible. Ensure the wiring is sized to handle the amperage, pumps are sized properly and are fed clean water/fuel ect. Maintain this stuff on schedule, I.E this week I'm cleaning out all my water strainers, next week I'm checking all my hoses for abrasion or damage and so on. Treat this stuff the same way you treat your rigging and steering hardware. Yeah it adds stuff to your work list, but I don't see how this could really be a bad thing if you want to have any of it. From your own experiences, what are the common failure points of this equipment such as;
> 
> Inverters, generators, solar panels and charge controllers, water makers, refrigerators and freezers, air conditioning systems, hot water heaters, water pressure pumps, pressurized water on the foredeck or in the cockpit, self-contained modular washer/dryer units, small dive tank compressors, wind generators, wireless routers and hotspots, radar on a smaller vessel, 12 volt appliances like coffee makers, toasters and blenders just to name a few.


Keep reading Sailnet and all will be revealed...


----------



## alanr77

outbound said:


> Alan once you figure all this stuff out ? do you want to crew?


 Ha ha, ironically, one of the ways I got to see the guts of a whole lot of different boats was by helping everyone around me who had issues for the price of a cold beer and a conversation. It was through this experience that I was able form a really good opinion on the build quality and thoughtfulness of design regarding a lot of different boats. I was able to see through and around a lot of the myths that people have regarding middle level boats, I.E Catalina, Hunter ect as opposed to other brands usually considered superior in every way. Some were without basis, some were.

Some people just have the type of mindset where they can look at something and visualize how it works as its working. Then if there is a problem, I can "see" the problem based on what's happening. It has served me well over the years within both professional and personal endeavors. Remember "Days of Thunder"? I'm Robert Duval as opposed to Tom Cruise. I started out by reading all the yacht design and ABYC manuals I could put my hands on. My wife used to laugh at me because while she was reading an engaging novel and laughing/crying ect&#8230;I was doing the same thing while reading a technical manual. Yeah, I'm weird like that. I became really interested in yacht design in regards to the whys behind certain designs. Things really make sense when the NA explains why they chose to do something. It's fascinating. I think if I could go back and start over, that would definitely be a contender for a career choice. Having said all of this&#8230;phewww&#8230;I tend to look at things more objectively and by the time a drill bit gets put into a drill, you can bet it is well thought out.

So getting back to it, so far, the sailnet average seems to be around 38-40', which seems to be right where I started at in post 1; though I can't tell if this is due to the mod cons or family size.

Is there anyone out there who has all of this stuff in a smaller yacht that is still seaworthy?

Jon you made a very good case about a larger yacht with automatic everything that failed. Any stories that are the opposite of that?

Outbounds boat seems to work out well; though most would consider an Outbound 46 to be a premium yacht for its size. Is there any correlation between the failure rate of components mounted within to the quality level of the yacht builder itself? I think most would agree that with these modular components, what they are mounted in shouldn't make a difference provided that the proper installation guidelines were met.

Something else to consider, what is the average here; 1-2" of waterline for every additional 900-1000 pounds of gear? I think I remember it being something like that. So this could definitely be a reason that you find this type of equipment on larger yachts almost exclusively. Though I have to point out, if you add up the weight of most of the mod cons I listed above, and then factor in the supporting equipment; due to all our wonderful advancements the stuff doesn't add as much weight as one would think. Especially when compared to equipment made even as recent as 5 years ago. 
A really good example of this would be a water maker.
1 gallon of water = 8.345404 lbs.

https://www.fourmilab.ch/hackdiet/www/subsection1_4_2_0_7.html

Let's say you have the capacity to hold 100 gallons of water on board. 
Rounded that's about 835 pounds. 
Take a Water maker, such as the Spectra 150 that weighs in as a complete system at 60 lbs dry.

Ventura 150/200T - spectrawatermakers.com

This system is capable of making 150 gallons a day. Now, let's really stretch things and say you carry two identical systems on board just in case. Most would carry parts but let's just say you bought two compete systems, one installed, one in the box. That's 120 pounds. 
The redundancy of this system should allow you to cut your water capacity down to 35 gallons. 
Based on this calculator

Water Requirements Calculator For Boats | Sea Clear Watermakers

A person drinking and doing laundry, with a fresh water shower a week, requires 2.8 gallons a day. 
Your reserve capacity of 35 gallons gives you almost 14 days without changing your lifestyle. And that's if BOTH water makers fail, you have no beer/soda and it doesn't rain for two weeks.
Running this scenario, your now carrying 292 lbs of water + 120 lbs of extra gear= 412 lbs 
This saves you 423 lbs compared to storing all your water. Not to mention, you don't have to worry about contamination or getting bad water from somewhere. 
That 423 pounds could then be used up adding other things, such as a refrigerator, dive compressor ect&#8230;without actually increasing the gross load the boat is carrying.

Just some ideas. The whole point of the thread was that I'm brainstorming. In this post I'm looking at the requirements of a bigger yacht in order to accommodate this stuff; Or, if it's not necessary.


----------



## Sea&Stars

Here's a brute the handyman on a budget might be able to pack some conveniences into:

51&apos; Ed Horstman Tri Maran Project Boat | eBay

I''s really just a matter of time and money, mostly money cause that can buy other peoples time.
Interesting to consider the possibilities.


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## outbound

Further things I thought about.
Where is the major weights? Like the idea of tanks below sole at center of the boat.
How does boat performance change with additional weight added.
What's service access? Is there are dedicated space for tools and to work on things.
What's the life cycle of components? Don't like metal or plastic tanks. Don't like marelon thru hulls.
What's availability and expense of common service parts. Had a Lehman diesel on prior boat. Great engine but getting parts was a bear.
What are interior surfaces? Corian maybe more expensive but it can be refinished and is not heat sensitive. Similarly if veneer are used how thick are they? Are fabrics fade and stain resistant.
In short beyond structural issues even with infill you get what you pay for. If you have plastic faucets and fittings they generally won't wear as well as stainless or chrome. 
You see 30+ y.o. Hinckleys or swans or 15 y.o. Outbounds or HRs and they have original fittings but still look great.


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## alanr77

S&S: Oh boy.....I know what that's like. My eye for "what could be" has definitely been tempered by a four year restoration that is STILL a few years from being fully complete. Yeah, that boat has a lot going on. But it would have to be basically gutted to do it right. It say's a rehab was started. Must have been after the pictures were taken. To some people a rehab consists of going to Walmart, buying a starting battery and then hosing the boat off.....

OutB: What do you mean? Do you mean where are the heaviest components mounted within the yacht? I have found that reducing reserve buoyancy in either the bow or the stern has the greatest effect on the boats fore/aft motion in a seaway. I think some describe it as "hobby horsing". If you look at a lot of S&S designs, and Frank Butler's for that matter, the heavy items like engines are mounted as close to amidships as possible. On my boat for example, the engine is mounted over the aft end of the keel. The batteries are mounted right next to that, port side. The two 35 gallon water tanks are mounted almost directly amidships on both sides of the keel. The 25 gallon fuel tank is mounted centered, 3' behind the engine. I am starting to redesign the anchor locker in order to utilize a vertical windlass. While doing this, I'm trying to work out a way to have the anchor rode, 150' of chain, fall into a custom made chain locker as low and far aft as possible. Though the design of the hull limits how far back this can go. Hopefully, when complete the anchor rode is within a few inches of the conversely mounted fuel tank. Thereby keeping the weight as balanced as possible. 

Service access? You mean that should actually be thought out BEFORE something is mounted?  Good point. While laying out my basic "blueprint", I've come to the early realization that there might be something in these modular designs. I've been looking at the Engle MB40 for refrigeration. I could fit the unit with the compressor and everything attached. But the unit with a separate compressor; basically the operating unit is separated from the fridge itself, would allow for the unit with moving parts to be mounted in a way where it can be easily serviced and inspected. Though this does add the complexity of the longer lines containing wires and refrigerant hoses. 

"What's the life cycle of components? Don't like metal or plastic tanks. Don't like marelon thru hulls." That's exactly what I was hoping to get from some people who have this equipment. If it fails within a month of installation, that's likely a manufacturer defect or installation issue. If it fails two years from now, that may be a life cycle failure. 

"What's availability and expense of common service parts." That may definitely be an issue with some of the truck stop style 12 volt mod cons. Given the price though, one would have to decide whether it makes more sense to just buy a new one, thus gaining any new advancements is size, weight and features to boot. A $4000 water maker? I'm fixing that thing. A $200 washer and dryer? Hmmm. If it's beyond a burned out motor, burst capacitor or failure of some solder joints, that might be a case for replacement. Something else to consider, the world has become much smaller over the last ten years. Between wholesale shops in China and companies like Amazon is the rest of the world, it is getting less likely that you'll be unable to receive something by mail daily. I've traveled by land and air to many different places within the world. Rarely did I find myself completely isolated from the commercial arm of the world. Can I get free, two day shipping of some toothpaste in the Azores'? No. But I can still get it. And that was a few years ago. 

The lasts part is definitely something I've noticed that separates the boat classes. I think that volume production is starting to allow the major builders to integrate better quality materials in their boats and still remain competitive on the market. Plus, people expect more for their money these days. That has probably been the single most distinguishing thing between say, a Catalina and a Sabre of the same vintage. On the surface, they both can look nice. But behind the face is where the Sabre boat will continue to use the higher quality material where as the Catalina will substitute a cheaper material. Not weaker or inferior in all cases, just cheaper. Believe me, I've experienced what you're saying first hand because I've had to upgrade all that stuff. I was surprised though at how well some of that stuff held up. When I first bought the 30, the bulkheads were starting to de laminate in areas where any standing water had collected due to the shower and leaking ports. It seems to me that in 1976, Catalina used non marine grade plywood as the main bulkheads as it was the glue that had failed, allowing the water to penetrate the wood fibers, which then rotted. They have since been replaced by Hydrotech and sealed with epoxy but I doubt I would have found this on a Hinckley. If I did, I'd want my money back. 

In regards to boat size, has anyone actually said to themselves, "this boat is too big, I don't feel like I can safely handle this" ?


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## outbound

The too big was an issue for me. Cut off was sails too big to raise, strick, furl, put on or take off with out powered assistance or another person.
Too big was if I needed cameras or another person to know where the boat stopped and the water began. Hardest part of docking for me is still knowing where the boat is relative to the dock and neighboring boats. Never want a stern thruster and a bow thruster as a necessity . Want to be able to dock even if the thruster is broken.
Too big is when I'm not aware of all aspects of the boat either by sight or sound. Don't ever want to ask crew "please go below and tell me if everything sounds and looks alright in the engine room".
Respectfully disagree with you about part availability. Mail and shipping service is a PIA to set up. Export/import can be difficult and fees excessive. Everyone who comes visit usually has a part I asked for and told the boats "in transit". Here KISS applies.


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## alanr77

I was kind of going to the extreme's to make a point. Not counting wait time or mail loss, what I was trying to get at is that you can get items virtually anywhere. Granted you might have to go through some loops to get it. Completely agree with KISS, just trying to figure out a good balance. I think it's interesting that I'm sitting here debating on the pro's and con's of installing washing machines and yet on another thread there is someone asking about how to travel down the entire ICW without even a stove to cook on. Perspective. 

One thing this thread has forced me to do, and I'm grateful for it, is that it really made me think about what systems are really important, and in which order to pursue them. I think it is obvious that eventually when I decide to take the misses a little further afield, a bigger boat will have to be considered. In the mean time, so far, the very first thing I need to focus on is the foundation to make any of these things possible. 

That foundation is power and the ability to replenish it. None of this stuff is possible without it. This entails the storage batteries, ac chargers, solar and wind generation and possibly hydo and separate generators. Thankfully I had this in mind when I firsts created the book that outlined the restoration steps and systems of my boat. I'm currently set up for 2 8d's and a separate starting battery. That's a good place to start. I've been keeping a log of every electronic device I have on board that includes projected items. I am currently at 53.7 AH daily when not underway. I'm curious as to what others are seeing on their boats.

The second item that really seems important is a water maker. I just can't come up with any negatives to having these systems. Obviously, they are heavily dependent on the first step as they seem to be quite power intensive. I think the Spectre 150 is rated at 9 amps in use. The benefits to being able to produce your own water just seem magical to me. Throw in a good water filter, PSailor just did a good review on some, and man, the sky's the limit. Basically unlimited water opens up the doors to a lot of different things. On demand hot water systems come to mind.


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## serpa4

What a good thread.


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## outbound

Been researching water makers for two years now and have yet to pull the trigger. Talking with others beyond watts per galleon things to think about are:
How it pickles.
Need for pickling.
Flushing.
Space. Components or single unit.
DC,AC, or pto power source.
Access for serviceability .
Cost of routine and major rebuild kits.
Complexity- automatic flush etc.

So far the simplified version of the Ventura 150/200 is my choice. Think the tropics version makes little sense as you never know where you will end up. Will go with the Cape Horn extreme when budget allows. Have heard they have figured out the guts of the machine with spectra being in this market so long. It's the controls that seem to make things hard or give troubles. The extreme seems to be the most bullet proof system but still convenient to use. 
Water use is quite different for us depending on time of year. You make want to actually track it for awhile.
Surprisingly use less in tropics as jump in the water for a shower then brief fresh rinse. Then next is passage. Most is when it's cold with all showers inside. We use salt and open thru hull to flush on passage and in tropics but fresh if the thru hulls are closed. Find that program keeps boat smelling nice but of course if water an issue all flushes are salt.


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## outbound

As an aside have also been looking at hydrgenerators now prices have come down some. They make no sense for us. 
They only work when you are moving. When on passage some one is always sleeping so no stereo or TV. Other then weather downloads and checking in no electronic communication or chatting on ssb nets. No internet use for kicks and giggles. So in fact given engine is on time to time when moving and not when still the time we are nearer our limits from wind and solar is at anchor. 
For now with 1020a in AGMs house not even near our limits. Go down to 80% rarely after a few rainy, windless days so rare generator use. Don't see how a hydrogenerator would help.


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## Rich Simpson

I currently don't have a sail boat but have "motored" for many years for my love of scuba diving. I'm coming up on retirement from the Feds and have spent the last year researching and researching sail boats, small, big and everything in-between. I will be single handed on my boat, and like you I looked into all the fancy electric gadgets that are available, and how they would fit into a sail boat. So for size, I've come to the conclusion that it would have to be at least 40 feet at the minimum, and 46 at the longest to be able to be single handed, and that is really pushing it. I personally don't want all the electric gadgets, but as I get older I think I would need some of them, like the electric winches...etc.. I can do without the washing machine, but a good water processing system is a must, with a manual backup in storage. The big thing for me is safety, so Iridium phones, with internet connections, satellite hookups etc is important for me, what you need to have is what makes you happy, key is to learn how to fix it all while out on the open ocean, or have some sort of manual backup for the electric one that fails. I've read just about every blog I can on the internet about passage making and so look forward to it, you can gleam so many cools Ideas by reading them, seeing what works and what fails, fixes, and the like. Good luck with you search and hope to hear what you come up with.


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## Rich Simpson

As for getting parts, I've worked in Laos, Cambodia, Thailand, Burma etc...and lemme tell ya, Amazon ships anywhere, and Amazon Prime, if you're in say Fiji, will have it to you in a week. Right now I'm in S.Korea and I get items shipped here and get them in 2 days.


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## outbound

Rich will tell you some days satphone works some days ssb works. Get both. Also ssb lets you chat for free.
If it's safety first, spend the money on the boat, then work on your skills, then a good raft. Once you are outside helicopter range the satphone isn't going to help much. It's the epirb that may get a response. And by then you have either figured it out or are sitting on a rubber floor. Looking at electronics as safety factor is putting cart in front of the horse. Good to have ( we have both) but not where the main safety thinking is.


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## outbound

Rich you must have more resources than me. I can't get on the KVH web search a part, have an address to ship to when cruising. I can't justify the expense of that kind of satellite service. Sometimes it's days before I have wifi access and then it's slow. Even buying local chips telephone expense is a burden. Find with obscure boat bits need help knowing what to get and where. Not everyone sells through Amazon. Want to avoid being stuck somewhere waiting for a part. Find carrying two spares for everything I can think of and good set of tools much easier and ultimately cheaper.


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## JonEisberg

alanr77 said:


> In regards to boat size, has anyone actually said to themselves, "this boat is too big, I don't feel like I can safely handle this" ?


Sure, happens to me all the time... Usually precipitated by a gear failure or breakage of some sort... 

Biggest conundrum I face in the delivery business is, as I keep getting older, the boats keep getting bigger...

It's astonishing to me, how 'over-boated' so many cruisers out there today appear to be... There's a guy on CF right now, who claims it's physically impossible for him _to adjust or tension the LEECH CORD on the STAYSAIL_ of his Oyster when sailing in a full breeze....

Now, _THAT_ is scary...

;-)

Another trend I find a bit frightening, is how many people are getting into multihulls these days - I suspect without fully comprehending how massive some of the loads on those boats can be - when compared to monohulls of an equivalent size...


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## seaner97

JonEisberg said:


> Sure, happens to me all the time... Usually precipitated by a gear failure or breakage of some sort...
> 
> Biggest conundrum I face in the delivery business is, as I keep getting older, the boats keep getting bigger...
> 
> It's astonishing to me, how 'over-boated' so many cruisers out there today appear to be... There's a guy on CF right now, who claims it's physically impossible for him _to adjust or tension the LEECH CORD on the STAYSAIL_ of his Oyster when sailing in a full breeze....
> 
> Now, _THAT_ is scary...
> 
> ;-)
> 
> Another trend I find a bit frightening, is how many people are getting into multihulls these days - I suspect without fully comprehending how massive some of the loads on those boats can be - when compared to monohulls of an equivalent size...


Multihulls scare me. I'm just too used to the feedback of a monohull. The only time I've been on a multi was a small one and I was humming along and then all of a sudden- wet. I would imagine it's harder to do with a bigger one, but that experience really stayed with me.


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## travlin-easy

Jon, you're not getting old - just smarter!  

And, the day I can no longer sheet the main in heavy wind is the day I put the boat up for sale. 

Gary


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## alanr77

OutB: Yeah that’s the same criteria I’ve been coming up with as well. To a non liveaboard, the biggest issue for me is the actual use of it. They seem to be much more reliable when they are used often. The manufacturer recommends every three days and no more than five days without some sort of maintenance procedure. Though I am onboard every day, I don’t use enough water every day to really tap the capability of these water makers. While out and about though, what a lifesaver. For me, the automation of the fresh water flush feature would really contribute to the satisfactory service life of the system. I like the Spectre brand as well. Practical Sailor seems to agree. I’m there enough to ensure there is water in the tanks, so therefore, the self-sustaining feature of the system makes sense. One thing that caught my eye though was that I was under the impression that the 200T was for tropical use only; taking away from the use anywhere example you gave. I’ll have to look at it again. 

Wow, 1020 AH available. Now that is a luxury! According to those who apparently know what they are talking about, when setting up a system you should ideally have 3 to 4 times more available amp hours than your daily amp hour load. I think the minimum is 50%. The amp hours really start to add up when you realistically count them. My earlier figure of 50 point something has doubled very quickly. Surprisingly, my Thinkpad really hurt my total usage. I think if people do the numbers, and do them realistically, they would be surprised. It is really becoming apparent to me another reason you need to have a bigger boat to support these systems. Looking at solar power alone, my only available space that would not require losing living space is on top of the bimini. Two panels at roughly 43” x 21” gives up around 200 watts. .3 x 200 watts= 60AH. I can’t remember where I got the .3xwatts rule but I’m pretty sure it’s fairly accurate. Someone correct me if I’m off.

Based on that alone, my current setup would be non-sustainable without another source of power replenishment or, running an engine which costs fuel and ultimately gets away from perpetual self-sustainability. Obviously I would never attempt this on solar alone, not with a 30’ boat, but this should give people an idea of what the challenges are. 
Now obviously, throw in an Air-X and the occasional run of the auxiliary engine and my daily requirements for self-sustainability become much more realistic. This all becomes MUCH easier on a bigger boat. 
To me, the ultimate successful build would be a boat that is only as big as necessary to hold the equipment that would allow the boat to be totally self-sufficient given the allowance of two external factors; food and fuel. This would include gas for cooking which is why I don’t think it’s realistic to discount the need on a small boat. I’ve never met anyone who did consistent wood fire cooking onboard a small sailboat and that wood would still have to come from somewhere else, thus not being self-sufficient. 

Hello Rich, I am facing the same issues. If you look back a few pages you’ll see I have a few particular needs in reference to automation. The challenge is finding the balance. The shipping details you provided are exactly what I’m talking about. And it will continue to improve at a very fast rate. The more reach a commercial entity has, the more money they make. This reach is one of the byproducts that will benefit us, or hurt us depending on how you look at it. I don’t really go to stores anymore; it’s too difficult for me to carry the bags around. I’ve become a master at finding the obscure on the web and getting it delivered to exactly the spot I need it. 

OutB: Agreed but my point was not that the availability of parts is infallible. It was just that it is improving, and at a very fast rate. It is highly likely that the issues you are having with reception will no longer be relevant within ten to fifteen years. Just look how much service has improved since 2000. I remember having to leave my cell phone in a certain windowsill and at a certain angle to make sure it would ring if someone called me. Can you hear me now? LOL Now I use my Sprint phone to talk to people while I’m 7 miles off the coast of Georgia. Money and demand make the impossible possible. 

Jon: “over-boated” Absolutely. As this thread progresses I am starting to understand why the bigger boats are necessary to have a lot of the comfort items people want. It’s not just the equipment, but the support systems that make it so. All is solved if you want to remain tied to the dock. And many of them do just that…regarding simplicity, when I first started to put my retirement dream into action I was interested in and looking at one of my favorite boats of all time, the Tartan 27. The boat met all my on paper requirements at the time. Went sailing on a few through a wide variety of conditions and really felt confident that for a small boat; the motion was pretty good. Most of all though, damn they were pretty. But, as I got a little older, as my psychical condition went down a bit, the need for something more substantial became apparent. My 30’ may not do long term. We will see. 

I don’t have enough experience on a Cat but the idea that as a mono hull heels, pressure is relieved on the rig makes perfect sense to me. I’m sure that the rigs are engineered to take it but when you release that line lock or cleat those forces are transmitted to you. Never thought about it that way.


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## seaner97

alanr77 said:


> I've never met anyone who did consistent wood fire cooking onboard a small sailboat and that wood would still have to come from somewhere else, thus not being self-sufficient.
> .


Look into a COBB grill. Low charcoal briquette usage for mucho cooking possibilities, with a compact storage profile. It's not a perfect solution, but for the space it takes up it would save tons of propane/LNG/EtOH fuel on nicer days and are designed to be set directly on flammable/meltable surfaces with no damage.


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## alanr77

Sea9: That's pretty cool. Though it is not in itself self-sustaining. The was trying to point out the two variables that are pretty much a constant. Food and fuel. We have the technology to realistically be able to make a small boat a few steps up from just self-sustaining- mod cons - the only two things we really cannot do yet is create fuel and food. Example: I can fully outfit a 30' boat with all the popular conveniences, provide for the self-sustaining power requirements and live a few steps up from the dark ages. What I cannot do on a small boat is create enough of my own fuel to be relevant and likely not be able to provide enough food worth having to be relevant. They require outside influences. Though theoretically you could do it on a big enough boat err. ship. I've watched too many dystopian movies as of late....


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## seaner97

alanr77 said:


> Sea9: That's pretty cool. Though it is not in itself self-sustaining. The was trying to point out the two variables that are pretty much a constant. Food and fuel. We have the technology to realistically be able to make a small boat a few steps up from just self-sustaining- mod cons - the only two things we really cannot do yet is create fuel and food. Example: I can fully outfit a 30' boat with all the popular conveniences, provide for the self-sustaining power requirements and live a few steps up from the dark ages. What I cannot do on a small boat is create enough of my own fuel to be relevant and likely not be able to provide enough food worth having to be relevant. They require outside influences. Though theoretically you could do it on a big enough boat err. ship. I've watched too many dystopian movies as of late....


No, not self sustaining (didn't mean it that way), but certainly something that could decrease your total cooking energy carrying needs.
FWIW I think that the energy requirements you're looking at require a hefty investment in solar and a significant deck/bimini space, plus a wind gen and a heavy duty investment in battery. They are expensive, but Aurinco has some marine specific panels that fit in nooks and crannies to increase your solar without sacrificing as much rail and deck space, and their panels are superslim textured walk ons, but you'd want to have dedicated deck shoes that never leave the boat and very fastidious cleaning to minimize scratching. Not anywhere as economical as the ebay semiflex or hard panels.


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## Rich Simpson

I absolutley agree that you have to think of the boat first, that I would think is a gimmie (for safety) as well as a good life raft. I was implying about the nice additional things to have on the boat, aside from what would be a must have on the boat. Your point is well taken Outbound.


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## outbound

Been taught anytime you set up the boat to have two independent ways to do something that's good. 
Of instance, cook down below or grill on rail. Have little bottles and T for grill gas 
Two heads, two or three fore stays, running backs and hydraulic back, multiple fuel and water tanks. Redundancy is a good thing on a cruising boat.


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## aeventyr60

Dedicated LPG tank for the BBQ only way to go. Little green coleman tanks like tits on a bull....worthless.


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## JonEisberg

aeventyr60 said:


> Dedicated LPG tank for the BBQ only way to go. *Little green coleman tanks like tits on a bull....worthless.*


Au contraire... 

Sure, on a boat of the size you can have dedicated tanks, I would agree... On a little tub like mine, however, that isn't in the plan...

One of the biggest PITAs I have to deal with on my boat, is the location of my propane locker. It's way back in the lazarette, butted up against the transom, and tight enough I have to make do with a pair of 6 gallon aluminum tanks... To simply switch tanks when one runs out requires dragging most of the crap out of the sail locker so I can access the damn thing, I'm guessing my record time for the whole operation is probably about 20 minutes 

One of the _BEST_ things on my boat, however, is that my galley - in addition to my little Force 10 2 burner stovetop - also features one of these Mini-Galleys from Forespar...










Far and away the most important form of 'cooking' that takes place aboard my boat, is the brewing of coffee  This thing has proven to be invaluable to me for the simple chores of boiling water, heating up a can of soup, and so on... I use it whenever I can, to minimize the use of my built-in propane supply to keep the inconvenience of my having to deal with 'real' propane to a minimum, and it could certainly serve as a handy back-up aboard any boat that might happen to run its propane tank(s)dry in an inconvenient location...

I love this little gadget, highly recommended, especially for those sailing a smaller boat such as mine...

;-)


----------



## travlin-easy

seaner97 said:


> Look into a COBB grill. Low charcoal briquette usage for mucho cooking possibilities, with a compact storage profile. It's not a perfect solution, but for the space it takes up it would save tons of propane/LNG/EtOH fuel on nicer days and are designed to be set directly on flammable/meltable surfaces with no damage.


Tons of propane? I used 20 pounds in six months of cruising in the Florida Keys, and I cook both breakfast and supper every day, and frequently lunch. Propane use on most boats is less than 20 pounds a year, even some cruising boats.

Storing the small propane tanks has never been a problem for me. I purchased one of those rubberized canvas bags used for stowing a life sling, which holds about 10 of them. It can be mounted on the stern rail with the same Velcro system the life sling uses and you don't have to worry about them. BTW: In 50 years of using the small cylinders, I've NEVER had a single leak from a defective valve - NOT ONE!

Additionally, if you want to use the small bottles, which I do for the gas grill, there is an adapter than can be used, if you wish, to refill them from your main tank. Those smaller bottles are so inexpensive at the big box stores now that I no longer refill the smaller ones with the adapter. I take the used bottles to the scrap metal place for recycling. Think the next thing I'll put on the boat is a can crusher for the beer and soup cans. 

All the best,

Gary :2 boat:


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## seaner97

travlineasy said:


> seaner97 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Look into a COBB grill. Low charcoal briquette usage for mucho cooking possibilities, with a compact storage profile. It's not a perfect solution, but for the space it takes up it would save tons of propane/LNG/EtOH fuel on nicer days and are designed to be set directly on flammable/meltable surfaces with no damage.
> 
> 
> 
> Tons of propane? I used 20 pounds in six months of cruising in the Florida Keys, and I cook both breakfast and supper every day, and frequently lunch. Propane use on most boats is less than 20 pounds a year, even some cruising boats.
> 
> Storing the small propane tanks has never been a problem for me. I purchased one of those rubberized canvas bags used for stowing a life sling, which holds about 10 of them. It can be mounted on the stern rail with the same Velcro system the life sling uses and you don't have to worry about them. BTW: In 50 years of using the small cylinders, I've NEVER had a single leak from a defective valve - NOT ONE!
> 
> Additionally, if you want to use the small bottles, which I do for the gas grill, there is an adapter than can be used, if you wish, to refill them from your main tank. Those smaller bottles are so inexpensive at the big box stores now that I no longer refill the smaller ones with the adapter. I take the used bottles to the scrap metal place for recycling. Think the next thing I'll put on the boat is a can crusher for the beer and soup cans.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All the best,
> 
> Gary
Click to expand...

Ok, maybe tons was an overstatement, but the point was that they are so efficient that a small bag of charcoal gets me further than a 20lb propane tank on land. As I said- augmentation, not replacement.


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## miatapaul

Rich Simpson said:


> As for getting parts, I've worked in Laos, Cambodia, Thailand, Burma etc...and lemme tell ya, Amazon ships anywhere, and Amazon Prime, if you're in say Fiji, will have it to you in a week. Right now I'm in S.Korea and I get items shipped here and get them in 2 days.


Can be is the operative word here. At work we ship things all over the world (last year over 120,000 pieces), and have had shipments held up in customs for months at a time. It is not uncommon for us to get a request for a replacement unit because something is held up in customs, and this can be a $30,000 to $75,000 order, where the recipient is wiling to pay for a second one rather than wait to see how long it takes. I have had a blank hard drive stuck at the Canada border for 6 weeks one time so it does not matter if it is big item or not. We use FedEx as our expediter at the border, and all forms are electronically submitted ahead of time. Could really mess with your weather window.


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## alanr77

Sea9: Gotcha. Good point about the supplementation of a system rather than a replacement. I had read somewhere long ago about a guy who would collect driftwood and scraps from marina’s to supplement his heating fuel. I would imagine that could be applied to cooking as well. Regarding charcoal, that’s something I can honestly say I’ve never used onboard before. My powerboats were all gasoline powered and my larger sailboats have all had and currently still have Atomic 4’s. Not to mention I carry fuel for the dinghy outboard as well. I’m always sniffing bilges and checking fuel lines; and remain very cognizant of hot ash or flying embers. The idea of a gust of wind and hot charcoal sets off an alarm in my head. 

My research into solar energy has definitely made me more aware of realistic size and output. Not only do I think it’s important to keep panels out of the way, they must be easily taken off their brackets and stored securely in a protective bag/box if need be due to theft or incoming weather. The roll up or portable panels may have some merit. I wonder what the compromise is to achieve this convenience. 

Rich: Exactly. That was the spirit of the thread. Anyone who doesn’t know what safety gear a boat should have onboard before leaving the dock either doesn’t care or is not paying attention. It’s all the little niceties; the man that would be nice stuff and the feasibility of actually having it, combined with what size boat can accomplish this that is of interest. I may have missed it but what do you have onboard and why?

Outbound: definitely. Can’t imagine having two heads. THAT is definitely a luxury. Women tend to be happier when they don’t have to share a head long term. Especially when you have friends that can’t even manage to hit the ocean, in all its vastness, and manage to hit the back deck instead. I sometimes wonder how they function at home. Speaking of heads, there is something I hadn’t brought up yet.

After having a harrowing experience with a flexible black water tank that left me in the hospital for a week, I made it a mission to never again have one on my boat. A while back I was active in a thread here regarding composting toilets and I am sold. I have not yet installed it (this fall) but for me it solves all my problems. Yet, I have used heads on other boats that ranged from a bucket to a freshwater, electric flush model that was about as close to your home as you’re going to get. I’ve always had good service from the vacuum style heads; provided the embarrassed depositors ask how to use it before the emergency. The composting head makes it easy; number 1 shut the big hole, number 2 shut the little hole. What are some other experiences and examples? Having a comfortable and easily used throne DEFINITELY counts as a comfort item. My wife has REFUSED to use a bucket in the past, and would rather suffer. Thus we all suffer. That got solved quickly.

Jon/A60: LPG. My boat came with an old pressure alcohol stove originally. Not a fan and never was, even in the 80’s. Being that I currently have an A4, I do not have a diesel tank to draw from for cooking and heating. I may someday put an M25 in this boat but only if the A4 dies; I might be waiting for a while and it’s not even on my long range plans.  So I’ve had to put together the plan for LPG. A system that both feeds my grill, stove/oven and a Dickenson heater. The fitment and routing of the system is a non-issue, as is the supporting safety equipment. I have only the choice of sealing my aft lazerette locker and installing a vapor drain, or mounting one of the aftermarket tank boxes off the transom. I would rather not do that for a whole book of reasons. Likely I will go the locker route. I have sized and can fit either one large tank 17-20 pounds or two smaller tanks in that locker. The smaller tanks may make more sense due to portability but those composite tanks are very light. Not sure which way I’m going yet. I have a friend who uses the little hand sized tanks exclusively. But he has to carry a lot of them. I’m not sure that would work for me. When I see a Catalina 445 with dedicated storage tank areas built in I am incredibly jealous. 

Jon: That mini galley is pretty cool isn’t it? We have a virtually identical unit that we use when camping and kayaking. Hot coffee is definitely a staple and can make a bad situation a lot more tolerable. I noticed you mentioned a two burner stovetop. Do you have an oven or just the stovetop? I’m also outfitting my galley and haven’t decided which way I’m going to go. Without the oven, I gain three drawers. But I lose the convenience of baking in an oven and a good way to store nesting pots. Is your setup by choice or circumstance?

Gary: To get that mileage out of your tanks, are you using a 1 2 3 4 burner stovetop? Oven? BBQ grill? Mini galley type device? How many people are you cooking for and are we talking ramen noodles or steak and potatoes? If you could improve your galley tomorrow for free what would you do to improve it?

MPaul: That’s a very good point. I hadn’t taken customs into account. That made me wonder about something though. A lot of these systems are being used in various ways by most industrialized nations. Have you found that it’s always necessary to import everything or can you use local resources if you had to? I’ve known people to wait for a part or an item for weeks because they didn’t want to pay the local price, not because it’s not available. I have been to almost every country in Europe and in my experience, little could not be found except very “American” items; and even then, if you were willing to pay, you could find it. I imagine this may be different for a tropical island but I don’t want to limit the discussion to tropical sailing. What’s your opinion or experience on that?


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## travlin-easy

My stove is a 2 burner propane with a good size propane oven beneath it. I usually cook for just myself, but at least one or twice a week I was cooking for two. I grill a lot, steaks, burgers, kielbasa, Italian sausage, fish, shrimp, lobster, ribs good stuff. In the galley, I frequently steam vegetables to go with what I cook on the grill, though sometimes I may do spaghetti and meatballs, mac and cheese, or get creative and do some fancy stir fry using left over grilled chicken, pork ribs or shrimp. (Why do you think that woman kept me for 52 years/)

When I get lazy and do a TV dinner, which is usually about once a week, I steam it in a 5-quart, covered saucepan. I have a microwave on the boat, but when using it with the inverter, it really sucks down a lot of battery in a very short time.

My gas grill is a standard kettle grill. I run it at a very low level while grilling, and sometimes it still gets too hot. I called the factory to see if there was a way of lowering the heat a bit with a different regulator, but they said I had the lowest flow regulator they sell. Sometimes I have to leave the lid open in order to regulate the temperature a bit. I love Johnsonville Brats and Grillers, both of which taste fantastic on any grill. I take them straight from the freezer to the grill, and it takes just 7 minutes for a couple of those monster burgers to cook thoroughly to 165 degrees core temperature, which is safe for pork products. Give em a try, especially the bacon and cheddar flavor - you'll love em. You can find them at Safeway.

All the best,

Gary


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## seaner97

I've got diesel, so less likely to go boom, but I think I've read of way more explosions related to propane. I think it has to do with diesel people having propane and either no bilge blower or getting lazy with it. Think of all the smokers in the 60s that didn't blow up their boats with A4s. But with the Cobb, the chances of flying sparks and ash are very minimal as long as you don't invert it. Check it out. Very easy to take to the beach to grill, and I've seen people mount them to rail held fish stations, but just as easy on a locker or a cockpit table. The only reason I use gas on land is ease. 
Mini galley is neat, but I think I'd use my whisperlite international first. Less crap to store and less garbage after the tank is empty.


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## outbound

Most places I've been having electric in back and manual in front has worked out fine. When on passage with three men going at it full time see composting head as problematic. Have no interest in carrying anything from the front head and having to dump it overboard when it's bumpy. When cruising from one obscure spot to another just don't have the interest in taking up extra space for composting material. Rather fill that space with stores. 
Think it's a great idea but like to go off and not know where I'll land and for how long. Want my only limitation to be food. As discussed on another thread clearly two schools of thought on this one. Think in large measure a reflection of cruising ground and how the boat is used.


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## aeventyr60

I get 8-10 weeks out of my 20 lb. propane tank. I carry two tanks plus a 6 lb tank dedicated for the bbq. Cook for two. 3 burner stove with oven. Cook most of the time. Nice to be able to roast a chicken or roast, great pizza in the old shipmate stove. Bread, muffins, rolls, cakes and pies too. Pressure cooker does the heavy duty cooking. Have various gas bottle fittings so I can decant other countries gas bottles into my own. Have a single burner swing type cooker which is rarely used, have an extra gas line to use this. The small bottles were too much of a hassle.

I've been hand carrying, fedxing and USPS airmail boat parts for the past 15 years. Not as dire as others here have said. Most of the time it is a matter of understanding how the country your in treats yachts in transit. Most of the time it has been duty free. The coconut telegraph will quickly let you know which carriers to use. Some places DHL is better then Fedex. Other places for small parcels USPS airmail is better and half the price. On larger shipments better to use a dedicated freight forwarder in your home country. They should know what the requirements are for you to get the package with out any customs hassles.

Defender and WM seem to be pretty good at this. They are shipping all over the world on a daily basis. Will be shipping 15K of boat gear by LCL ocean freight in the next week or so. Don't anticipate any problems as we are shipping into a duty free port, have met the local freight forwarder here and have had extensive communication with the stateside shipper. Doing it this way probably saves close to 50% over local prices.

You will more then likely return home from wherever you are cruising. On the return trip your bags will be stuffed with parts. I have a duffel bag just for this. I also make a trip to the local Goodwill and buy the cheapest and largest suitcase with wheels. That too is stuffed with all kinds of goodies.

On the comfort and convenience part for remote cruising, if your systems get to complicated you will be forever waiting for parts in distant lands. We've found that there are usually some enterprising hardware stores that carry an amazing selection of marine goods. Part of the fun exploring new ports, trips to the various hardware stores....The Chines owned shops seem to be the best around here.


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## outbound

If you're friendly and throw in an incentive sometimes managers of near by charter boat companies can aid you in getting parts. Also their discards are sometimes useful.
Always try to chat up local cruisers and pros running big boats. They can show you the ropes and tell you who is a good source in that spot.
Personally try to stay out of chandleries. Hardware stores, plumbing, HVAC venders and the like are usually cheaper.


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## JonEisberg

alanr77 said:


> Jon: That mini galley is pretty cool isn't it? We have a virtually identical unit that we use when camping and kayaking. Hot coffee is definitely a staple and can make a bad situation a lot more tolerable. I noticed you mentioned a two burner stovetop. Do you have an oven or just the stovetop? I'm also outfitting my galley and haven't decided which way I'm going to go. Without the oven, I gain three drawers. But I lose the convenience of baking in an oven and a good way to store nesting pots. Is your setup by choice or circumstance?


To be clear, I'm not much of a cook... ;-) It's just never been much of a priority, for me...

No oven on mine, the only thing I'd likely use it for would be baking bread, anyway... Hell, I rarely use my oven in my house, but on the boat the decision was more driven by the space constraint than anything else... The equivalent stove w/oven - figuring in the swing room required - took up a lot more room than I would have liked...

Somehow, I still manage fine between the 2 stovetop burners, and a small Force 10 propane grill that can be clamped on the stern rail... ;-)


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## alanr77

Gary: Wow, yeah you’re eating well. The system you have set up seems to meet your needs very well. You mentioned a microwave, and that you run it off an inverter. I take this to mean you can use it off the grid. How is that working out for you in the long term? Would you do it the same way again? I would imagine it takes a fairly hefty inverter to run a microwave properly. I have been told they are quite finicky about clean power. I had read another post by you on another thread where you described in detail what your setup is, and some of the reasons you did it. Regarding your partner it was both sad and uplifting at the same time. Keep doing what you’re doing. I’ve seen it countless times within my former profession, guys work their butts off for 20+ years and then retire, only to find themselves without a structure and something to provide meaning in their life; they fall off quickly from lack of activity. 

Sea9: That Cobb does seem to be a neat cooker. It sounds like it could be a good fit for use on the beach as well. Without delving to deep I never bought into the dangerous gas engine propaganda. Most powerboats are and were powered by gasoline engines and continue to safely do so. I don’t know why sailors were so easily convinced and have never found it useful to argue the point with them. There is definitely merit in the miles per tank and the dual use of diesel fuel for auxiliary power, and in the spirit of this thread, diesel generators, cooking fuel and heat. I would never replace a good running A4 but my next boat will likely have a diesel just for the reasons above. 

Outbound: I make it a point to never try and convince people to adopt a way of thinking that is anything but their own. Having said that, I took a long hard look at the composting heads, such as the Airhead, and discovered that for my needs, combined with my last experience with a failing flexible holding tank, the Airhead is my solution. It is rated at two uses per day for 2 people and fills at 80 uses. We tested it in the garage (don’t ask…and no the wife was not happy) for a few months and found it to be excellent. There was no smell and with just me using it, I ended the test before it ever had to be emptied. The coconut fibers or peat can be found everywhere, are dirt cheap and take up no more space than a case of beer; that will last at least a year. As far as the liquid waste, it’s pee. Carry one extra bottle, which seals off securely by the way, and you can hold plenty of pee until you either dump it overboard or down a drain or whatever one deems environmentally conscious. I have found that it’s likely that you will have to dump liquids every couple days but solids don’t have to be dealt with but every other month. And neither is anywhere near as nasty as the contents of a combined holding tank. Regarding supplies in obscure locations, a buddy of mine has one and he hasn’t had to deal with any supplies in over a year. He bought a years’ worth at the beginning. But, like everything it might not be for everybody nor will it be perfect in all situations. For me though, it was the best invention since a battery charger. 

By the way, I was very motivated to find an alternate solution. Without the gory details, my last holding tank experience involved an exploding, neglected and full 30 gallon flexible holding tank- filled with OPP, a small cut on my knee, a septic infection and a week in the ICU on base. Never again.

A60: That’s defiantly the upsides to having an oven. I rarely use our oven at home but I have weighed the positive attributes heavily. They are not a cheap investment but anyone who has a full function galley usually swears by them. Not to mention, looking at the thousands of awesome sounding cruiser recipes, many require an oven. I’m sure there are workarounds but we are talking about as much luxury as we can fit in our waterline length right? The upgrade path for my current boat, along with refrigeration, water maker and a hot water heater, includes an oven. In previous boats, I used the oven to store pots. Though admittedly, my lifestyle was a bit different then and a rarely used it. Sailing gives one plenty of time to divulge in the finer things in life…like baking bread. It’s good to hear that availability of parts isn’t like it used to be. I would think this is still dependent on where you are and how resourceful you can be. But one things for certain, it’s only going to get better. 

I think that it is prudent to really understand how the systems we install on our boats work. A little bit of research and an understanding of how it works goes a long way in knowing what replacement parts you need to carry. I wonder how many guys that were stuck somewhere waiting on parts had to do so because they weren’t carrying some of the common sense replacement parts. I know people who do not carry a spare impeller for their water pump……even though all it takes is two thumb screws to change it. And yes, they got stranded before…SMH. I think a lot of these companies even make it easy for us and take the guesswork out of it by offering kits that are even called “maintenance and sustainment kits for cruisers” Barring a rare catastrophic failure of a main component, most failures are due to common replacement parts; brushes, impellers, fuses, diaphragms ect.


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## seaner97

alanr77 said:


> Sea9: I don't know why sailors were so easily convinced and have never found it useful to argue the point with them. There is definitely merit in the miles per tank and the dual use of diesel fuel for auxiliary power, and in the spirit of this thread, diesel generators, cooking fuel and heat. I would never replace a good running A4 but my next boat will likely have a diesel just for the reasons above.
> 
> A60: That's defiantly the upsides to having an oven. I rarely use our oven at home but I have weighed the positive attributes heavily. They are not a cheap investment but anyone who has a full function galley usually swears by them. Not to mention, looking at the thousands of awesome sounding cruiser recipes, many require an oven. I'm sure there are workarounds but we are talking about as much luxury as we can fit in our waterline length right? The upgrade path for my current boat, along with refrigeration, water maker and a hot water heater, includes an oven. In previous boats, I used the oven to store pots. Though admittedly, my lifestyle was a bit different then and a rarely used it. Sailing gives one plenty of time to divulge in the finer things in life&#8230;like baking bread. It's good to hear that availability of parts isn't like it used to be. I would think this is still dependent on where you are and how resourceful you can be. But one things for certain, it's only going to get better.


Look at some of the offshore/bluewater boat discussions on here and you'll see why. Despite being 'adventurous' sailors seem to be particularly 'risk averse' or 'over-prepared' people. And some combine that with amazing amounts of sloth or laziness.

REven- you could go camping way again and carry a folding reflector oven. Wouldn't warm up the cabin and can't be used in rain, but could stow on virtually any size boat and for the rare times you want to use one would suffice with proper planning.


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## MikeOReilly

You're sure trying to cover a lot of ground here Alan. Let me fully agree with you on the composting head plan. After having both I believe that for a full time crew of two, a composting head is the best choice. This is especially so for those who want to remain off the dock, and visiting out of the way places. Chucking it overboard is always easiest, but unless you're off shore, or in anchorages with lots of flow, I would not want to be direct discharging (regardless of the local laws). 


Why go fast, when you can go slow


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## alanr77

MIke: Yes, it's a very broad thread. I mean, I kind of asked "what makes your cruising boat tick?" and expected a variety of answers. The thread did get a pretty wide demographic regarding boating style. Lots of views and it definitely provoked my thought process on certain ideas. Originally I had thought about maybe breaking down the individual systems we are talking about and giving each one of them a go starting at the batteries but I fear such a long thread would end up being difficult to follow. Anyone with even a little skill can research how to set up these systems; even within this very forum. In the end, what it all seems to come down to is that if you want to have any of these comfort items, either by choice or necessity, you can. However, it's the support systems that may force you to get a bigger boat. I mean, there is only so much battery power I can store on my 30 before either the weight or the space becomes an issue. Additionally, there are only so many solar panels I can mount on my boat before they will be in the way and interfere with the function of the sailboat. I think this can be best witnessed by some of the boats we all have lurking in the backwaters of our marina's. I'm talking about the "sailor" who has the "sailboat" in which every inch of deck space is covered in tarps and personal stuff and then has solar panels of all sizes haphazardly strapped to anything that will support them; in addition to an old sun faded gasoline generator sitting next to the 1985 window air conditioner duct taped into the front hatch. Yes, they have every conceivable item on their 30' boat. But it's only a boat in the pure sense of the word because it's floating. In order to really store, sustain and support all these things, you need waterline length. I can and will fit out some of it on my current boat, but only within the limits of my battery and solar power and just as importantly, ability to mount it out of the way. 

Ironically, I was sitting at the table discussing future plans with my wife the other day. She has always known and accepted the fact that I would be cruising the US for a while and likely be on my own. It's just something I've wanted to do. But, she also would like to tour the world at some point and is open to doing it via sailboat. With my retirement at a young age it allows me to do my thing for a while she pursues her own career. She did the eight year medical degree thing; is just about finished and is super excited to pursue her dreams there. However, she is still interested in doing the world tour in 7-10 years. So we started to talk about what she would really want onboard to be comfortable and put her in the best position to enjoy the places we visit. Now remember that she is coming from a background of sailing the San Jaun Islands in WA and coastal boating with me for the last 10 years; she also has all the basic ASA classes done and understands what’s realistic on a boat. All in all, what it came down to was the basics. The ability to take a hot private shower. The ability to make water and to cook and store food while having cold drinks. She also is not fond of the claustrophobic, cave like interiors of many good seagoing boats of the past. She is also intimately familiar with cruising 30' and below and has come to the conclusion that 30' is too small to comfortably do an open ended cruise on. 

Over the years I have always bombarded her with "oh look at this boat" while on my perpetual yachtworld cruise. She has a really good idea of what's out there in the difference in livability between some of the older cruisers and the newer style of boats. I've showed her Cat/Morgan 50's, Catalina 470's all the way down to the 400. We both agree that the 470 and 50 might provide more space than we need. On the same note, we have agreed that the 36 and older 38 edge on just not enough. The 400, 42 and especially the 445 seem just right. Now, this is just within the Catalina lineup but I wanted to explain where we are as a couple regarding future plans. This is very different than my current thing that is happening on a 30. But, at the same time, all the lessons from the 30 will apply to the 45. The solar on the 30 is the same as the solar on a 445, there's just more of it. 

Having said all this, I can’t help but notice that the boat size increased dramatically once the spouse got involved. I mean, I’ve assessed my capabilities and needs and determined that I could do what I want while staying in the 30-36 range. And that’s having everything I want. A compromise here or there and I could do it on what I have. But as soon as you bring the other into the fold, the size jumps 15’. She is simply very adamant about the fact that she will not spend a couple years of her life living in a dark mahogany cave. And if the requirement to have a comfortable boat at sea and have living space is a bigger boat, so be it. Crazy world we live in.


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## outbound

Usually post on SN while wife is sleeping down below. Operative statement " wife is sleeping down below". Happy wife happy life.
She needed
Raised deck saloon. Light and airy. 
Good ventilation with rare need for AC.
Two private state rooms with two private heads.
Central air/heat
Galley with three plus burners and stove.
Flat screen, Internet access, stereo.
Sugar scoop and walk through.
Enough water always for showers
Enough electricity for her conveniences

I could care less as long as boat sails well and I'm warm dry and fed occasionally. But ultimately she was right. The boat is our home. We are not camping. This is our life. I'm glad I generated a short list and then let her pick the boat.it is our boat not my boat. Until something breaks of course.


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## MikeOReilly

My wife (operative statement, she is equally engaged in our life) and I have almost none of the things on your list Outbound, yet we too are comfortable in our boat life. And we're not "camping" on board either. 


Why go fast, when you can go slow


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## travlin-easy

My wife and I have had some serious, sometimes heated, discussions about this subject. The QE2 would be fine for her, even living aboard a cruise ship would be OK. That's about as small as she wants for a live-aboard. About the 5th year we were married, 1967, we looked at a 75-foot, converted PT Boat. It still had one of the torpedo launchers on it. The boat had 4 spacious state rooms, a huge main salon, large galley, oil heat, 2 heads with separate showers, lots of glass, really nice. It was powered with 3 12-in-line Packard gasoline engines and carried 2,000 gallons of gasoline, plus 500 gallons of diesel for the heating system. The previous owner lived aboard for 20 years and raised two children on the boat. He upgraded to an 83 footer that was diesel powered. My wife was 5 months pregnant and flat out said, I'm not raising children on a damned boat.

Now, I'm quite comfortable aboard my Morgan 33 Out Island, lots of space, enough amenities, TV, internet connection, 2 burner gas stove, oven (that I never used), hot and cold running water (75 gallons), show in the head, and a nice sailing, very comfortable boat. 

Unfortunately, age has a way of catching up to us, both of us are in our mid 70s, and lots of body parts don't work the way they used to. I had intended to sail to the Florida Keys again this year, but I was recently diagnosed with peripheral neuropathy, a nasty disease that is quite painful and destroying my central nervous system. Consequently, today, a day I intended to go sailing, I'm stuck at home on a heating pad taking pain killers (too early for booze). At this point, there is a good chance that I will not be headed south on October 1st, but instead, putting the boat on the hard for the ensuing winter. (I hate winter here.) 

My point is, appoint the boat the way you want it. If you like to watch TV while anchored in a quiet cover for the night, install a small, flat screen TV. If you enjoy surfing the internet, install a long range antenna for your laptop. Whatever you feel is convenient and makes you comfortable. Unfortunately, there will come a day when you no longer can physically climb aboard and sail over the horizon. That day is rapidly approaching for me, and I'm really not looking forward to it, but when it does, I have my home on land.

All the best,

Gary


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## alanr77

That's a really an interesting differentiation between two different types of cruising. Though it seems important to note that you guys partake in very different styles of cruising. Outbound is a full time, live-aboard cruiser whereas Mike is a part time (4 months last year) cruiser. And Mike, you boat is anything but spartan. You have a very nice setup that works for you. I would think the requirements are very different to be comfortable. Obviously this is a generalization but I do think it's relevant. There is also a vast difference is the cost between the two types of cruising. I mean, I have talked to and watched people who cruise on tiny boats without much in the way of modern items at all. Not including those who do it because they have no money and don't want to work at all. I don't know how they do it but to each his own. I once read somewhere that cruising costs as much as you have so that could be applied. 

The way I see it is that I worked really hard to get to the financial position I'm in right now. I don't want to live the minimalist lifestyle. I am not an environmental extremist so I am not as concerned about my carbon footprint as some. We want to cruise as comfortably as we can and realistically, who wouldn't want to if they have the means? I mean I'm just being realistic here. Yeah, you can take showers in the cockpit with a sun-shower and be clean. In some circumstances that may even be the more convenient way to do it. But tell me, honestly, if you had a boat with a separate shower stall, hot pressurized water and spacious head to step out of the shower into, would you still stand in the cockpit spraying yourself with a garden sprayer all the time? Doubtful for most. It's human nature to want to be comfortable. I know myself. I've spent a lot of time in some of the worst places in the world. I've used makeshift showers for 8 months straight. No hot water, hand washing clothes......I'll take the shower stall with hot water every time. I think at times there is some sort of bravado in the ideals of minimalist living. "I don't need a shower. I wash with this old washcloth dipped in bilge water. Afterwards I rinse in the cold rain. I'm clean!" An exaggeration but you get my point. Though there is nothing wrong with showering on deck with a hose and then jumping into the ocean. I'm just saying it's nice to have a choice. I'm not advocating either lifestyle; to each his own. But when I'm out and about on my boat, I want to be as comfortable as possible. I've got nothing to prove to anyone anymore. 

The more my wife and I talk about our future plans, the more we seem to be heading in the direction of a boat with comfort items on board. Obviously this also means a larger boat. To be completely honest, the way you're living aboard OutB is more in line with what we want out of the experience. I wonder if some of that is influenced by my past experiences. I mean a 44' Chris Craft Connie is not a spartan boat. Neither was the 55' that my father had when I was growing up. And at the same time, I've camped on a Catalina 22 so I've lived both sides of the experience. Neither was more fun that the other but one side was definitely more sustainable for the long term. 

Now here is another factor worth discussing; I am pretty well versed in what makes a good passage boat. My god there is enough information and debate within the very walls of this forum. I tend to fall somewhere in the middle between the heavy cruisers and lighter-weight modern boats. The thing that we've noticed is that you can have your cake and eat it too, you just have to buy a bigger boat. I really like the spacious layouts and livability factor found in the modern mass produced boats. I am particularly fond of Catalina's and having restored three of them I am intimately familiar with their pro's and con's. However I am not blind to the advantages of certain hull designs and the advantages of purpose built passage makers. Though it should be noted that the Catalina 470 IS a purpose built passage maker according to the manufacturer. But there is definitely something to be said about the robustness and quality build of a well found Bristol or Alden. My wife expressed interest in some northern cruising- Europe and that changes my boat requirements quite a bit. Insulation becomes a factor when discussing comfort. 

Another thing worth thinking about is the sailing itself. One boat in particular that I remember was an Allied Seawind 30. The famous first fiberglass boat to circumnavigate. Solid as rock and could stand up in ferocious seas while the skipper sips brandy from a plastic cup comfortably below. What a boring and lifeless boat that was to sail. We sailed in average conditions that are found most days of the week and I remember specifically saying to myself that I would hate to have to sail this boat everyday. I'd have to buy a day sailor just to remind myself that sailing can be exciting. Now before everyone arms themselves and forms outside my house with pitchforks and torches remember that this is my opinion as it applies to what I look for in a sailing vessel. I have to say that I definitely fall more into the Webb Chiles point of view in that I want a performance cruiser. And again, in order to have a boat full of convenience and maintain high performance; it requires a bigger boat... I'm seeing a trend in my writing here....requires a bigger boat...bigger boat...bigger boat. 

Thoughts?


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## alanr77

Gary: You're killing me! I'm not supposed to be aware of my own mortality at 39! I'm kidding of course and wish the best for you. Of my many unfortunate injuries, a couple of surgeries left me with a severe case of Type II Complex Regional Pain Syndrome. Likewise a very nasty disorder that affects my central nervous system. At it's worst, it affects both legs and my right arm. Under low stress conditions and with the help of Morphine is stays in my lower leg and foot. Cold weather and stress are the killers and are guaranteed to set of pain flare ups that can last for days. It's one of the reasons I stayed in the South after retiring. I am well aware of the winters up there. I grew up on the North East River, just up from Perryville on the Chesapeake Bay. My family was friends with the owners of Bay Boat Works Marina up that way and my mother even worked there as the secretary/accountant for many years. That place freezes solid in the winter. We were power boaters at the time but I fondly remember my first exposure to sailors. Sailors tend to be a friendly bunch and I remember a guy in an Oday 27 a few slips down from us. I was always fascinated by sailboats; against my fathers best wishes and jokes against sailors, and would sneak down there and talk shop with the guy. That man, back in about 1984, had the biggest influence on my future and set in motion a lifelong love of sailing that has led me directly to where I am right now. He taught me my first knot and I can remember his lessons about sail trim verbatim to this very day. I doubt he's still alive but if only he knew what an influence that old sailor had on this young boy. 

Wow, a WWII PT boat? That is really neat. Elco or Higgins? It's actually on my bucket list to go for a ride on a restored PT boat. They are getting quite rare these days. 

Having disclosed all of that, you are absolutely correct. It is an individual experience. I think I was fishing for what that individual experience means to other people. What my requirements are now are quite different than what we will need ten years from now. I'm a big fan of choosing the right tool for the job. So that in itself will have an influence on how we outfit the boat in the future. I was kind of looking to talk about all aspects of cruising comforts and boat size. Imagine we are all sitting on the dock and talking about boats. From what we have now to what we want to have later. In the spirit of that, have you made any modifications to your Morgan to adapt it towards your changing health?


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## outbound

Gary I'm also at the point where trips home are for doctor/dentist appointments. Had two trigger fingers injected two days ago. Came back to the boat. 10-20 no rain so wife and I out for a short cruise. Nice to be able to do that with one hand working well.
Now chatting with you guys slipping a G&T listening to the Goldberg variations.
Think nothing wrong with wife's list. Have nothing to prove. Whole heartily agree the sunsets are the same for everyone. Some of the best times I've had have been in unheated, Quonset hut down a dirt road in N.H. my wife's family keeps as a hunting camp. We still enjoy it although the skiing days are behind us.

BTW- our stove gets used a lot. In fact it's on now as dinner prep is underway. Reheat things, casaroles, bake fish, meatloaf, etc. haven't done bread yet but had drinks and dinner on friends boat. They baked bread during the drinks hour. The smell drove me nuts. Next on the list.
Boat is set up for microwave. Never installed it as every cruiser I met said they used theirs rarely or not at all.
Different folks- different boats. All good.


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## Sea&Stars

I'm just starting to learn about sailing and I have yet to get my boat in the water but the idea of living aboard and cruising the world is a big motivator in this pursuit.

One thing I've noticed is that electrical technology seems to keep shrinking the "boat size" quotient. Solar and battery tech as well as communication and navigation equipment just keep getting better and smaller. There is a real effort under way to put a satellite network up that offers wireless high bandwidth internet anywhere on the planet. One can generate power from solar, wind, and water systems and store it more efficiently too. I expect hybrid electric propulsion will soon be a reasonable option. 
Multi-hull boats seem to be adding to the ability to have more usable cabin and deck space for the comfort factor while limiting the length and increasing speed. Ama hulls on trimarans offer lots of area to put solar gear out of the way of sails and people. Combine wind and hydro generators with solar and you have a robust power solution for running ever more efficient 12 and 24 volt DC systems. Ahhh, the future is getting brighter.


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## outbound

S&S
But the sea hasn't gotten any smaller and if anything the storms are worse. You're absolutely right about what George called "shrinkage". Still hull speed is sq. root lwl x ~1.32 and you need a fairly big multi to be safe. There are small brick out house blue water boats like Bristol Channel cutters, west sails and the like but it's an unusual couple that will stay together in one. I'm in awe of the couples that do. 
I would be pleased as punch on the 32' version called a channel cutter. Was a guy in Canada building them ( hope he still is). Something timeless about that design.


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## MikeOReilly

Gary ... what a blow. You're one of the people I keep telling friends and family about when they question my sanity. I say, look how Gary's living! I want to be doing the same when I'm 70. Besides, you and I still have a meetup to do one of these years. Hope you find a way to keep sailing, but regardless I know you'll find a way to keep the adventure alive. 

Alan, you're absolutely right, our boat is not spartan. It's quite luxurious. Perhaps not as cushy as your plans, but far from "camping". But you pose the rhetorical question: wouldn't everyone want as "comfortably" a boat/home as one can have? By that I think you mean having as big as boat as possible, loaded with as many labour-saving devices and other tools of modern land life. 

In my and my wife's case I guess the answer is no. We have quite consciously chosen the smallest boat we think we can live with. And we have chosen systems that meet all our needs, not necessarily all our wants. We have the means and the ability to own a much larger boat. We could install many more labour-saving devices. We've made conscious choices all long the way to seek simplicity and frugality. We've done this, not out of some drive for moral superiority, nor to achieve any zen-like aesthetic. The reason we've gone this route is quite simple; we mainly seek freedom. 

We're 48 and 52. We're retired. We're becoming full-time cruisers (just said goodby to the land home). We don't have a vast fortune, but (we think) we have enough. We could chase more, as our society teaches us we should, but that is the path to slavery. Enough is good enough. 

I have absolutely no problem those who want more. I really don't care how big your boat is, or how many heads you have. If you're good people with a good heart, we'll get along famously. If not, we'll wave and go our separate ways. It's all good. 


Why go fast, when you can go slow


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## travlin-easy

Alan, I made some modifications this year, cut an opening in the stern rail for easier boarding, and added a gangway, one that anchors to the gunwale with a heavy, 1/2-inch diameter pin that is about 4 inches long. It makes loading and unloading gear a lot safer as well. 

While in Florida, I had a guy construct a full cockpit enclosure, which makes cold weather sailing very comfortable. Kinda like sailing in a greenhouse. 42 degrees outside and on a sunny day, 75 in the cockpit. Some days I had to open one panel to cool the cockpit down as the temperature rose to as high as 90. 

Inside, I added a 1,500-watt inverter for my wife's C-pap machine, which is also used for the TV and Microwave. We use the microwave for quick reheats of left over meals, but keep in mind that a 750-watt microwave really sucks down a lot of battery in a short time.

My biggest concern is that because of the peripheral neuropathy I no longer have the sense of balance that most folks have. Sure, I can still climb around on the foredeck in moderate seas, but when it gets rough I have a fair degree of difficulty. Most of the time I just stay in the cockpit until I find smooth conditions, then turn into the wind, drop the anchor and drop the main into the lazy jacks. 

I also added a switch in the cockpit for the electric windlass - makes anchoring a bit safer than going to the bow to use the switch on the bow rail. 

My biggest fear is that my back will go out completely while in the ICW or worse yet, the Dry Tortugas. The last time that happened I was paralyzed from the waist down for five months and the pain was beyond belief. 

As of today, I have 34 more music jobs to perform before I retire. Sure, I'll probably do some private parties and stuff for friends, but no more 6 to 7 days a week, sometimes 2 jobs a day. After 65 years of working nearly every day of the week, I'm finally gonna stop and smell the roses before someone places them on my casket. I'll be 75 years old in October, so I guess it's time to kick back a bit.

Mike, we will meet up, probably in the next couple years, when you're sailing down Chesapeake Bay and headed for the land of palm trees, turquoise waters, sugar white sand and balmy temperatures. I'll keep the bar stocked for ya, a full complement of Green Coconut Margarettas, some spiced rum and a bottle or two of Jim Beam Honey Bourbon. And, I will be happy to make you a sumptuous dinner for you and your wife on the boat's kettle grill. Fillet mignon and all the fixin's. I cooked that for supper last night - OH YEAH!

Still lots of sailing days left this season if I can get my health in a bit better shape,

Gary


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## outbound

I think Mike has a good attitude. However, don't think labor saving is the goal. Rather safety and quality of life. 
Given my age I knew my current boat would be my last boat. I know my physical limitations and given my prior profession have some insight on limitations to come. Also know from experience even if you have access to unlimited crew a cruising boat should be set up so it can be singled in all weathers.
Therefore, a sugar scoop with walk through cockpit access means I can get on thing from the dinghy.
The cockpit design eschewing the large expanses of many current boats means I won't fall and can be braced when steering or sitting.
Having everything brought aft makes it easy to run the boat by myself.
Having handholds on both sides of companion way and only three steps means I can safely and quickly get up and down even in a seaway.
Having berths designed for use at sea not as play pens means I can actually sleep offshore.
Having adequate natural ventilation means no untoward smells and excellent ambient temperature.
Everything is powered. On a day to day level makes things so easy. Gives no excuse for laziness to sail the boat well. Still, everything can be run without power. Only Achilles heel heel is the AP. but with two Rams should be fine.
The electric head is backed by a separate manual. With the macerator guests have yet to screw that one up. They have clogged the manual inspire of lengthy instructions. Holding tank capacity is such we have never added to the Coliform count of any shellfish bed.
I like when fellow cruisers come to my boat for cockpit cocktails. I like when they are comfy and happy. My wife likes to serve tidbits and smooze. Good music through a good sound system enhancing the experience.
It's fun to have folks gather throughout the saloon and all watch a sporting event or movie together. I have no interest in a spartan existence. I dislike small screens for those activities.
When in new places I find buying and transporting stores a chore. I am delighted that other than fresh fruit and baked goods we can easily go a month or more deferring this chore.
Scones in oven. Wife up. Bye


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## alanr77

Hmmm, that’s four times that health issues have come up in a thread about comfort and convenience, including once by me. That brings up a good point. As others have discussed the merits of a rather simple setup in their boat, admittedly not close to camping, but not plush either, there is another angle that can warrant comfort and convenience along with a bigger boat. ErinD brought it up earlier referencing medical support equipment. It looks like some of you guys have me by as much as 30+ years (Gary) but my unique medical condition puts me in the same ballpark as you guys when it comes to special needs on my boat. 

Let’s start with equipment. I have a CPAP as well. It doesn’t run with hired help pumping a diaphragm so it must be powered. Now, to be honest, I do not use it all the time, much to my doctor’s disappointment (I’ve come up with other ways to cope, like bracing myself on my side) but I do have the equipment nonetheless. This in itself is an appliance that needs AC power to run, therefore requiring a sine wave inverter and a way to replenish the batteries the following day. Much like any other AC appliance that one might install on their boat. So right off the bat my boat would require a slightly more complicated setup than a battery and a dome light. For some this medical equipment might be more complicated but regardless, the boats electrical system must be upgraded to handle this load. 
Additionally, for those who understand what I’m saying, I am very affected by climate. The damage to my system has caused me to be a living, breathing weather forecaster and self-contained barometer/humidity gauge. Hot and dry makes for an easy day. The colder and more humid it gets, the more drugs it takes to get through the day. Cracks, pops, pains and aches are directly associated to my local environment. Now the reason this works out is that I can handle all of this just fine most of the time, I just need a semi-stable environment to retreat to. I also need a comfortable place to lie down at times and especially at night. Decades of sleeping on the metal floors of tanks has left me incapable of doing anything like that anymore. Alan doesn’t sleep on floors. So this adds the requirement of a reliable HVAC system within the boat. Now this can mean everything from excellent ventilation to a Dickinson bulkhead mount LPG heater. Thankfully I handle heat better than cold so usually ventilation is enough. However, a lot of the drugs I am on can and do cause excessive sweating and I have to be careful about overheating. So for me, the ability to cool the boat down mechanically has some importance. Thankfully, a decent 16500BTU A/C unit can be run by a 3000k generator if necessary. I’ve read about people doing it with a 2000k but I don’t like running equipment near its maximum capacity all the time. It shortens the life of the equipment. (Excluding diesels- they like to be run hard.) So even on a small 30’ boat I can facilitate forced cooling when necessary and eventually I’m installing a Dickenson heater so I’ll be able to heat and dry as well. Yes, these could be considered luxury items on a small boat but if you need them in order to be comfortable and participate in life like normal people are they still considered a luxury?

Another comfort item is what you sleep on. My back will protest with the violence of a Hurricane if I sleep the wrong way. My sea berth and master must have something on it a few levels up from a stock factory cushion. I am currently upgrading the upholstery on my boat and I am looking at multi-layered memory foam for all areas that might be used for sleeping. We may even go the memory foam or latex route for the v berth mattress that will be used at anchor or at the dock. Not cheap but you can’t put a price on sleep. 

The next thing directly related in this context of comfort item is quite simply the motion of the boat. With exceptions a larger, heavier boat rides more comfortably at anchor and at sea. I remember being in anchorages in my 22 where we were being thrown about constantly from every little thing that disturbed the water. To someone with aches and pains, this is unacceptable over the long term. Granted, no boat under 100’ is going to be completely stable in all circumstances, excluding storms and such, but a larger boat will be more comfortable. 

I think this really highlights the fact that the requirement of a larger, more complicated boat might not be just because of status, laziness or the want of frivolous luxury items. Looking back a few pages, a water maker is not a luxury item to me. I cannot easily move jerry cans full of drinking water. The luxury item became a necessity. 

S&S: Absolutely. That’s what I was alluding to earlier in the thread. Technology is making things more possible every day. Smaller and more efficient makes it more likely to find this stuff in smaller boats. I mean, there was a time when refrigeration was unheard of in anything less than 35’. Nowadays, I have seen a daysailor running a small cooler off of a small solar panel. Cold beer at 14’ without the need for ice. 

OutBound: I admire people like the Pardey’s and the like that can coexist on boats like that that but I am definitely not like them; on many levels. Like I said earlier, I subscribe more towards the Webb Chiles version of boat design as opposed to the WestSail philosophy. Personal preference. However one of the byproducts of this philosophy is more spacious boats. Interesting observation about the storms, they do seem to have increased in ferocity. But have they? Or are we just out on the ocean more to notice them? I don’t know. 

Mike: “ By that I think you mean having as big as boat as possible, loaded with as many labour-saving devices and other tools of modern land life.” Not at all. What I said was that given a choice, most people choose to take the more comfortable and more convenient option. That paragraph specifically said, if a person has the convenience of a hot, normal sized shower on board and it’s easy to use, most people would choose it instead of standing on deck with a garden sprayer. It’s the same reason you likely don’t stand in your back yard with the hose to take a shower every day. Or do …….LOL. Anyway, my point was simply trying to say that people use what’s available to them. And usually if something is available to them that are more convenient and comfortable to use, they will often choose it over the alternative way. Nowhere did I advocate a huge boat loaded with everything, in fact I said I’m not advocating either side. The only thing I was advocating was there’s nothing wrong with having a choice. The only thing I don’t understand is how you are relating this 

“We could chase more, as our society teaches us we should, but that is the path to slavery. Enough is good enough. I have absolutely no problem those who want more. I really don't care how big your boat is, or how many heads you have. If you're good people with a good heart, we'll get along famously. If not, we'll wave and go our separate ways. It's all good.”

to increasing the comfort or convenience items on your boat. Are you talking about comfort of the mind as in lack of envy? Interesting. 

Outbound: “sugar scoop with walk through cockpit access” That would solve most if not all of my current issues with my limited mobility on board. It would make everything easier for me to do; from boarding the dinghy to climbing back onboard from a swim. It is definitely being added to my next boat list. 
It’s kind of funny though, I actually read your last post to my wife this morning. Her response was, “if we are going to do this tour, we’re going to do it big and with a level of luxury. What kind of boat does he have? “ 

I made the mistake of showing her an Amel 54 the other day……Now I just have to get her to understand that “I” am the one who has to fix all that stuff. “I” am the one who will get woken up at 3am when the head won’t flush…..balance ha ha


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## alanr77

Mike: The way I spend my Sundays....I'm sitting here watching paint dry in my hanging locker....anyway, I think it's important to remember why I started the thread in the first place. I know internet threads go all over the place and it's welcomed. But I was never debating who's way is better or worse yet, judging anyone's setup. I just want to make sure were reading the same book and you don't get the wrong impression of my intentions. I'm all over the place because I'm trying to update and outfit my current boat while at the same time keeping an eye on the future because it's going to change for me. Throw in my disabilities and the fact that I'm retired and spend all my time messing with boats and you can see why I am covering a lot of ground. I just got the impression that you were starting to think I felt that the people who have a more complicated setup were superior in any way and that's not the case at all. Sometimes due to writing style and the fact that you don't know my particular nuances and I don't know yours, it becomes important to explain ourselves in a simple way so that the conversation can go on. All I can do is write about my experiences and what I thought of them; at the time or now if they have changed. I try not to write about anything I have not actually experienced with my own eyes and hands. So please know that there is never an agenda or a suggestion that someone should see things my way in anything I write. If it ever comes across that way just assume that I'm high on Interlux fumes and my writing style is not as accurate as it should be.  I was really interested in what other people were enjoying currently and in the future with their sailboats. You guys have really shared your personal views and choices with no motivation or reward to do so, and for that I am grateful. The sailing community is quite small in this country and we all have a lot in common. Not to mention we are all hopelessly infected by SSIS (Sea Sail Infatuation Syndrome) that the general public doesn't understand. I mean look at how they react when one of our fellows gets rescued! And I quote "why would anyone take a little sailboat out into the ocean!. They are reckless and we should charge them for the rescue!!!" Need I say more?  

We all set our boats up differently and for different reasons. As far as where my views generally stand regarding simplicity. Look at my boat picture at the bottom of my posts. That was three boats ago. That little boat had a battery only to power the navigation lights and VHF. Yet, I keep pictures of it up because it was my favorite boat and the only one I wished I had kept. Pure sailboat and the most fun I've ever had on the water with my clothes on.  I miss it dearly: it was so simple that I found I sailed it a hell of a lot more than my bigger complicated boats. And when this ride is over, I'll likely return to something like that boat before I die.


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## MikeOReilly

Alan, I'm not offended or put off by your comments. Mine are not meant to tell anyone what to do. I'm merely trying to respond to your thoughtful questions using my own experience as a guide. In some ways I also see these conversations as something for posterity, or future readers, who might stumble in here while researching "modern convenience and boat size."

I do think we might be talking past each other at times. My perspective is I'm trying to address the actual consequences of the choices you are speculating about. Most of the modern conveniences mentioned, from a/c to dishwasher/clothes washer, all lead rather quickly to larger boats with more complex systems. This comes with higher maintenance demands, great repair challenges, and greater expenses. I'm not saying anything about whether you, or anyone else, should have them. I'm certainly not suggesting there is any moral superiority in having them, or not having them. I'm simply saying choices have consequences. One of them being higher costs. 

I choose a more frugal lifestyle, in part, b/c I place a high value on freedom from wage slavery. IOW, I want to avoid working for money as much as I can. But if you have the money, then great. Fill your boat with all them modern conveniences you can afford to buy and to maintain. If it works for you, and is not negatively impacting someone else, then it's all good. 

Now, I gotta get back to work. Am building a new bimini using solar panels. As usual, I'm not really sure what I'm doing, but I've got a few models from some fellow SNers to follow. Wish me luck. 


Why go fast, when you can go slow


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## alanr77

Lol, yeah it's funny sometimes how in a forum it takes ten posts and a week to say something that if we were standing on the dock talking about, we'd all be laughing and nodding our heads. I understand what you're saying. 

When I outfit a boat, very little of it is spur of the moment or fueled by emotion. I actually have a nice hard cover three ring binder that outlines the exact process for rebuilding my boat. I've done it for all of them. It has all the pertinent measurements and lists of parts required to complete the job. You would be surprised at all the people that don't take into consideration all the extra stuff needed just to install something as simple as a pump. The pump needs wire, insulated wire clamps in order to meet the ABYC 18" rule, fuse block, terminals, screws to attach the wire clamps ect...Every item on my list has a sub-list of supporting equipment. It really puts things into perspective when you do this. I've also tried to make the addition of items as painless as possible. My batteries go from a terminal mounted 150a Blue Sea block to their respective bus blocks a short distance away. Whenever there is a decrease in wire size within the circuit, a fuse block covers the decreased ampacity of the smaller wire. This has made it really easy to wire in a new circuit allowing all circuits to start in the same area. This also makes troubleshooting easy. One of the worse pet peeves I come across when helping guys inspect their boats is the jungle of wire syndrome where know one really knows what wire goes where. I usually rip out the entire system and start over when faced with that. The only issue I've ever really had when trying to adhere to ABYC wiring standards is wire color coding. I have found that it's really hard to rewire the many different systems using this code. An example is the wire color for accessory circuit breakers and switches. It's supposed to be orange but since I like to use duplex and triplex wire to keep things separate, it becomes impossible to follow the rule. On my boat, I prefer to have a bundle of properly secured duplex wire than a bundle of properly secured loose wires. The labels go on at the terminals in my system so you can look at it and read what it is. The only thing I have been religious about though is using red for positive and yellow for negative. I have a separate A/C system wired in with black, white and green.I would hate for someone to confuse THAT black wire with a DC ground. 

My point with this is once a person decides to complicate the boat by adding mod cons, their are ways to reduce the complexity. Proper, simple and well installed wiring can not only reduce the issues, but make fixing them much easier. If thought it put into the servicing features of the item, people would be more likely to service them. I personally notice things when I'm changing filters and oils. While I'm in there I'm looking at wires for chafe, hoses for damage, corrosion. Preventive maintenance is always better than reactionary. But look around your marina, I'm down on my boat almost everyday, health permitting. I rarely see anyone doing any maintenance on their boats. They show up one weekend with the entire extended family in tow, turn the key and head out. Then something either doesn't work of stops working and when they get back, it's all "to hell with Raymarine, that stuff is junk. My depth sounder stopped working and I ran aground". The following weekend we troubleshoot the issue and find that he had run the sending unit wires through the bilge, unsupported. He had piled all kinds of old rusted junk into the bilge and over time, the junk chafed through the wire and proceeded to allow all the bilge water to have it's way with the wire; leading to failure. I should also note that the wire was speaker wire from Autozone spliced into the cable to make it longer. But yeah, Raymarine makes junk.......SMH 

Something else one should keep in mind when you're having work done. A lot of marina's employ the lowest common denominator to work on your boat. JimBob who will work for $8.00 an hour is very attractive to a smaller marina trying to stay in the black. A good marine tech who knows and follows prescribed standards and has relevant training does not usually work for $8.00 an hour. But,nonetheless, lots of people like JimBob, because he didn't cost much and the equipment might work when he hands it back over to you. It's only later that you discover the shoddy work or shortcuts taken....after you've already decided that the manufacture makes junk and blasted it all over the internet. Even if you do not feel comfortable doing an installation yourself, it behooves you to at least look at and read the relevant ABYC manual for whatever your having done. Then use it to ensure they followed the standards as close as they could. Ask questions and point out stuff. It's your money and by doing this you'll become a better boat owner. 

The reason I'm bringing this up is that I'm questioning some of the noted failures of equipment. I really like to research that kind of stuff down to the root cause. In my experience, I'd easily wager that 75% of the failures I've had to repair could be traced back to 

1: Shoddy installation using cheap,non marine rated materials.
2: Lack of maintenance or improper servicing of equipment.
3: Overloaded equipment or circuits running to close to their designed maximum for extended periods of time. 
4: Using undersized equipment for the task at hand. I'm speaking specifically about cockpit mounted auto-pilots. 
5: Not paying attention to wire ampacity and the effects of heat on that ampacity.

People don't realize that electrical components, especially AC powered equipment is extremely sensitive to current. To little can be just as destructive as to much. A properly wired circuit will have ample headroom to support the equipment attached to it. This reduces heat, increases efficiency and prolongs the life of the equipment. A good example of this is your HVAC system. I've been at a marina where everyone was having issues with burnt out compressors. the yard was having a field day and making $$$$ replacing them. During the week, people were leaving their system on low to keep the boat dry.It was a particularly hot summer so the liveaboards were cranking the AC on high. People were showing up on Friday and finding their systems burnt up. A friend asked me to help him figure out what was going on as he had been through two compressors and a relay over the course of three months. So I brought down a portable ac unit to cool the boat while I helped him change it out. It just so happened that we were there around 1415, the hottest part of that day. I noticed that all the boats around us seemed to be on similar ac cycles and were starting at the same time. Sure enough, the load caused a brown out and the portable unit right next to me kept bogging down and failing to start. This went on until all the units on our dock eventually started. Apparently this was happening everyday and was the cause of the burnt up compressors. The marina being cheap had never upgraded the dock power circuit after taking on a bunch of new liveaboards. many of them were not the brightest of the bunch and when their systems started working sub par, their answer was to add more ac units; making the problem worse by the day. Eventually the marina added a new circuit and the problem went away but let me tell you, during that time Cruiseair and Flagship were being roasted for using bad compressors......

So I'm asking, how many of these failures, such as the ones Jon noted, are really caused by the high tech equipment being bad or unreliable compared to failures of the items I listed above????


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## boathooked

Interesting statement/viewpoint Mike...."wage slavery".

I do understand the underlying concept of what you are saying, but man I cannot even fathom that life for myself, i.e. "I want to avoid working for money as much as I can" is not in my thought processes. Kudo's for you, seriously, I envy you in some ways. 

However I enjoy my work and am well compensated for it. Do I want a less stressful job/less pay that comes with that? Yes, actually I do, and I plan on that in a few years. However I will still work, it is just who I am...looking at delivery jobs. Won't pay much but will help support us, as will whatever job my fiance gets that makes her happy. 

Thanks for sharing your views, both personal and on boats, it i has been very informative!


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## travlin-easy

Hey, you can always be a downtrodden musician/entertainer. Over the years I've made huyndreds of dollars singing to the masses. 

Gary


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## Capt Len

Yeah,greed for the buck.In the spring I'd sail to cover the years expenses. In the summer I'd sail because the cash was mounting.Then towards fall, time to make the donuts syndrom set in and finally about mid Sept I'd cleared a 100 G and could happily wander off to Desolation and in Dec , time to go to Thailand. where all the cooking and cleaning is hired out. Back on board ,had all the modern stuff,except dishwasher and water maker. Have to set limits somewhere . I can fix stuff but can't carry a tune in a teak bucket.Just have to find your niche.


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## MikeOReilly

Thanks BH. The concept of wage slavery as a means of maintaining social control of the masses goes back to Ancient Greek days. Wiki has a reasonable summary: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery

Of course, I'm not suggesting people shouldn't do work. It's the social construction of capital and labour that I chafe against. BTW, I'm off to do some more work ... on my boat ... of my own doing.

Ah Gary .... if only I had your talent. I can sing, but have never managed to play much more than a bodhram.

Len, sounds like you've got it figured out. Good on ya!

Alan ... can I hire you to re-wire my boat ;-)

Why go fast, when you can go slow


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## alanr77

I'm with you guys on the financial aspect. Everyday we are bombarded by advertising that suggests we have to buy stuff in order to be happy. It's a vicious cycle indeed. I went through a stage where I started to buy everything that was on my wish lists in the quest for happiness. What I found was that after I received the toy and the excitement wore off, I was unhappy again and searching for the next thing to buy. I'm stubborn so it took a few years to understand the fault in this but I understand it now. Happiness born out of consumerism is fleeting at best. Most of the things I've enjoyed the most over the years has been things that are free. Admittedly, I still suffer from this occasionally but I think it's normal and in our society, incredibly difficult to get away from. And as far as society goes, I think it's getting worse. An hour long TV show is in reality only 25 minutes. The rest is marketing trying to sell you stuff. Quite sickening. It has infected radio, TV and print. Take the internet for example, pages are loaded with pop up ads that are becoming increasingly clever at being difficult to close. There is a recent one that I noticed, it pops up near the top of the screen and has the x close box hidden; you have to go to full screen to even see it. I don't know who thinks this stuff up but I have never had an annoying pop up show up, prove to be hard to close, and then result in me saying "wow, I want to buy that!" If anything it makes me avoid the product in the hope that that go out of business and stop bombarding me with ads.....But I digress....

I guess I got lucky in that I wanted to cruise full time from the beginning. Granted it was not via sailboat but I knew I wanted to explore the earth once I retired. Though my career choice allowed me to see the world for free; the world looks different when looking down the scope of a rifle. People act differently and you really don't get a feel for the culture that way. So financially I started planning for this at around 22. Between the small but steady income from my investments and my full military retirement, I am financially independent. However, there is one big caveat. While I am well compensated by the Army and the VA for my injuries, I pay an incredibly high price everyday for that privilege. I'm a highly motivated individual and I loved my job. I miss it dearly. So to me, it wasn't wage slavery, it was an identity. But, I also knew it would eventually come to an end. So I prepared for it;I just didn't know at the time that it would end like this. I've been retired now for 11 months. I'm still coming to terms with how to spend the time that I feel good. My boat project gives me purpose and I hate to say it, but this old boat has kept me going when things got really bad. All in all what I'm saying is that sometimes being free from wage slavery has a price. 

But what your saying has merit. We were talking about boats and the need for bigger boats in order to enjoy all the mod cons we may want. Most people that I know can't afford to pay cash for a Catalina 470. So this brings a boat mortgage into the equation. The cheapest Catalina 470 on YW at the moment is $199,900.00 Off the top of my head, accounting for 10% down, were in the ballpark of $1500 a month before insurance. And this does not take into account repairs and upgrades to make the boat safe and comfortable for cruising. To someone without a fixed income that is continuous, I couldn't even imagine trying to save enough money to facilitate cruising in that boat. That person would be locked into their job and would never be able to leave the dock for anything longer than a short vacation. Forget cruising, I don't know how they do it. On the other hand, take an old Pearson, lets say a 44' Countess available on YW for $45000.00. After the 10% you are left with a payment of roughly $315.00. That's around $4000 a year. So theoretically, you can easily save $8000 and make the payments for two years. Much easier to save $8000 than $36000. Now of course these are generalizations but your point about being a slave to the boat is real and could affect cruising plans very quickly. 

I think this again comes back to balancing what you really need as opposed to what you want. The guy on the bristol and simple Pearson Triton has only the cost of maintenance to worry about, but his beer is warm......


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## Don L

Lets not start crying poverty folks. We all mostly here have boats (yachts) and if we were really all socially moral would be helping others with the money wasted on them. And I grew one step above dirt floors so don't want to hear stories of how there aren't opportunities.


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## alanr77

Who's talking about poverty? I'm talking about $200,000 boats.....but Don I am curious to know what you are referencing. Are you certain you responded to the correct thread?


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## MikeOReilly

Alan, whatever boat you finally settle on will, without a doubt, be the right boat for you. You face far greater challenges than most of us, but your clarity and drive will clearly get you to the right answers for you.

P.S., don't mind Don. He's probably having a grumpy day as he slaves away for another days wages when all he really wants to do is sail away .

Why go fast, when you can go slow


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## aeventyr60

^must be hard to get away on 3k a month budget....


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## Don L

MikeOReilly said:


> A
> 
> P.S., don't mind Don. He's probably having a grumpy day as he slaves away for another days wages when all he really wants to do is sail away .


what no staticis linked to support this :crying


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## katiejai

Do you recommend a particular brand of portable icemaker? Thanks


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## alanr77

Don, A60: Oh.....I see what you're getting at! No, I never said I can't do it! I can assure you I'm well prepared and can do the 470; without selling my house and cars. I was agreeing with Mike's logic and talking about wage slavery. This thread, like most good conversations, has meandered all over the realm of comfort and affordability. I also think you may have gotten my words mixed up. My difficulties are physical; not mental or financial. I really didn't want to bring the specifics into the conversation because I didn't feel they were relevant but it became apparent that they were. Mainly because some mod cons are necessities for me. Consider this as well; originally, I was planning on volunteering my boat and services to a program within the Wounded Warrior community that gets Vets out sailing. When choosing my current boat 5 years ago, cockpit layout and accessibility was in the back of my mind. At the time though I never would have thought I'd be the Captain AND a patient. On top of that, and relevant to this thread, I love my current boat. I've rebuilt her from the keel up and know every nook and cranny of the boat. I'm weeks away from getting the rig back up and am getting down to just exterior paint and outfitting. If it were just me, I'd probably keep this boat for a long time, even if there are things that are on my next boat list that I cannot change with this one. I like how she sails and I've made major structural upgrades to fix factory deficiencies. However, the future involves my wife, and she won't cruise the world on a 30' boat. She requires the mod cons that are found on 40'+ boats. So I'll keep this boat likely for the next 7-10 years while I cruise the United States and local islands. That's why it's relevant. Once we decide to leave the coastline and become completely self sufficient, a different tool (boat) will come into play. But that's down the road. I'm sensing through your writing that you guys have reservations about something or an opinion to express. I'm interested to know what it is as it might be useful to someone. What's on your mind?

Katie: I don't know if the right word would be "best" when sorting out a freezer. You have to figure out which system "best" suits your circumstances. Take into account how much space you have, how much insulation is available or how much extra can you add, power requirements and the ability to regenerate that power, area of operation;I.E in the tropics or in England. My personal choice for my current boat is the Engle MB-40 with the separate compressor. It is top loading so it fits nicely in my current ice box location and draws at the most under heavy use 36-56 ah per day in the Florida heat. Some people like keel coolers as well. You have to fit the equipment to your current boat and needs. Maybe JonE can chime in on what has worked at sea because he has a lot of exposure to different systems over the course of deliveries. If you stick with a known brand and have it and it's supporting system installed properly, from my own experience most modern systems work pretty good.


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## krisscross

Life on a boat gets a lot simpler when you start liking beer that is only moderately cool. 
And it is infinitely simpler when you sail alone. But alas, sometimes one must put up with bad weather and demanding crew from time to time. My respect to all those who can accommodate all such extended demands. 
IMO the best modern conveniences are those which make sailing safer, such as good navigation and communication gear, watermakers, solar and wind power sources, life rafts, and so forth. How does that relate to boat size? I guess above lets say 35' LOD it begins to make no difference, as you can fit all such gear easily on a boat in mid 30's.


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## alanr77

Kriss: Good point! It is quite amazing the improvements we have made over the years in regards to navigational equipment. It wasn't that long ago when I had all the local charts and a good compass on board. I never really got into the sextant thing though I am going to learn how to use it just for nostalgia. When coastal sailing, especially at night, I would often use resection to locate myself using known lighthouses and let markers. It's a good feeling when you do a back azimuth and intersect those two lines, knowing exactly where you are. Nowadays though, that stuff is a lost art. My phone does more than all the marine electronics combined 20 years ago. To be honest, I am currently debating whether I should invest in a nice Raymarine E120 or continue to use Open-CPN on my laptop and Navionics on my phone as primaries. For coastal and near coastal, I have not had a need for anything more. Though I am eyeballing a 24" Radar dome and to properly use it a touchscreen display would be a nice to have. Obviously it is prudent to use better equipment when traveling further than that but I know of many people who use nothing more than a laptop loaded with Open-CPN. Understandably so, marine electronics are insanely expensive. 

Which brings up another subject. It is no longer necessary to rely on crossed fingers and prayer to navigate in low visibility situations. Radar has gotten really easy to use and offers very clear and distinct marks, I'm thinking the Raymarine HD sets, and AIS, which is now built in to everything from VHF radio's to smart phones. All of this makes those lumbering sounds in the night a little less scary and reduce the number of times you exercise your butt clenching muscles. Now is this to say this equipment has replaced a constant watch, backup chart plotting and the like? Not necessarily. Not for all of it. But our modern navigation equipment is more likely than not the go to device when needed. 

Sometimes I wonder, resistance to change is a common trait as a human gets older and more set in their ways. I watched it happening with my parents and the internet,I see it with people and their fear of internet commerce. I'm not being judgmental, but these are real traits and I wonder if we will continue to see the reliance on technology become even more accepted as the generations of cruising sailboat Captains gets younger. I mean there is no denying that GPS and chartplotters have made long distance cruising more accessible to the masses. One could argue that by eliminating a lot of the common education that mariners used to have to understand has resulted in more people getting in over there heads out at sea. The people who learned celestial navigation and sun sight navigating usually studied the other aspects of seamanship in the process. One could say this made them better mariners as well. The ease of getting out there coupled with the "apparent" ease of getting rescued has resulted in a lot of needless risks and rescues. People have replaced skill with finger dialing efficiency. So in my opinion, while it just makes sense to use all the available tools that technology allows us to have, it is important to remember that they are just that, tools in your toolbox of seamanship. 

So what are some mod cons regarding navigation that you guys have added to your toolbox? How has it enhanced your experience? Do you think any of it is overrated?


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## Sea&Stars

Don't buy that radar yet looks like a phone upgrade will take care of it soon...

Fingernail-sized radar chip could be used in future smartphones

Wonders never cease...


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## Don L

alanr77 said:


> So what are some mod cons regarding navigation that you guys have added to your toolbox? How has it enhanced your experience? Do you think any of it is overrated?


I'm going to get flamed, but I think radar is pretty much overrated.


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## alanr77

Don0190 said:


> I'm going to get flamed, but I think radar is pretty much overrated.


Not at all man. Some people take opinions and views way to seriously and make it personal. Hell, I just read all 2000+ production boat posts and some people their act like someone insulted their family with this stuff. It's all information and personal takes on individual experiences. All worthwhile and all welcomed. Your views may or may not be the same as mine but who cares! The world would be boring if we all agreed on everything. Whats more important is why you think it's overrated. I'll install some of this stuff for no other reason than I like to play with toys. But for someone else, they may be considering radar on a small boat for more important reasons. And your opinion might help them make a more refined and better educated choice. Not to mention, it gives me a reason to take a break and play on the internet; as opposed to grinding fiberglass as I install additional braces and tabbing to my new bulkheads....I like breaks


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## JonEisberg

Don0190 said:


> I'm going to get flamed, but I think radar is pretty much overrated.


Well, I doubt you'll get "flamed", but there might be some who will disagree with you... ;-)

For me, as usual _It Depends..._ If you sail in Florida, it might rate no more than a 'nice to have'... In Maine or Nova Scotia, I'd elevate it to _'EXTREMELY nice to have'..._

'Boaters' like this appear to consider it essential, based upon the fact that none of their boats are without it... Then again, these guys are renowned for spending their hard-earned $ on frivolous gizmos, and the trendiest 'must haves' being peddled in the glossy boating rags...

;-)


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## Don L

I'm sailed in the fog of Maine where I could barely see the bow of the boat, radar is overrated. Too many wooden lobster boats around that don't show.


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## JonEisberg

Don0190 said:


> I'm sailed in the fog of Maine where I could barely see the bow of the boat, radar is overrated. *Too many wooden lobster boats around that don't show.*


That's odd, I wonder why _they_ all have radar, in that case... Are you missing all those fiberglass boats out there, as well?

Hmmm, perhaps you could use a better radar?

Or, use your radar better?

;-)


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## travlin-easy

Must be something really wrong with the radar system you used. A few weeks ago, my newly installed 3G radar system saved me from running over a kayaker who was in the main channel two hours after dark near Havre de Grace, MD. I can also see floating logs, crab pot markers, pier pilings, day markers, and even boat wakes. I wouldn't sail at night without my 3G radar running. 

Also, just about every commercial fishing vessel in Chesapeake Bay, and the charter fishing boats that ply the same waters, all have radar and swear by it. Like I said, something terribly wrong with the system you use.

Gary


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## Capt Len

My old tech Furuno couldn't tell the difference between floating kelp and sitting ducks but it sure showed a blip. Even passing sea planes. Adusting the wave clutter could separate the mud bars that don't show from the waves which gave a reflecion. Highly overrated unless it's dark, foggy. before GPS in shifting delta maze, with the only aid to nav the occasional RACON. where the compass sorta/maybe works a bit.


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## Don L

told you


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## JonEisberg

Capt Len said:


> Highly overrated unless it's dark, foggy. before GPS in shifting delta maze, with the only aid to nav the occasional RACON. where the compass sorta/maybe works a bit.


_Exactly..._ I'd say, if anything, radar is underrated by many sailors today...

Few other gizmos can perform such a variety of functions. It can pick up the slack where AIS leaves off, by indicating vessels not transmitting AIS...

It can be an incredibly valuable weather tool, particularly when sailing at night... If you're halfway across a place like the Mona Passage when those squalls and thunderstorms are firing up over Puerto Rico after midnight and start heading your way, it's unlikely you'll still be viewing the benefit of having radar on board as "overrated", by the time the sun rises next morning...

And, as you've said, it can work wonders as a navigational tool, serving as a virtual chartplotter... Even after LORAN started to appear on yachts, the coverage didn't extend well into the Out Islands and Southern Bahamas... Armed with only the Tropic Isle sketch charts, and so many of the islands and cays undeveloped, featureless, and all looking the same back then, it was pretty easy - for me, at least - to become somewhat 'unsure' of my position, shall we say ;-)

Firing up the radar, it was like turning on a chartplotter, 20 years before they existed...

;-)


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## aeventyr60

^maybe if you explained in a bit more detail the issues you are having using and interpreting the data shown on your radar screen you'd get get some ideas on what you might do to increase your understanding on how to use your radar effectively.


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## travlin-easy

You might change your mind about radar being overrated if you watch this.






Gary


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## Rocky Mountain Breeze

The elephant in the room for me in discussions like this is the affordability issue. If you are a trustafarian, a retired government employee, or wealthier than Donald Trump then the issue is what conveniences do you want. For those who may be of more modest means then simplicity may override wants so that you may afford needs and still enjoy your hobby. Right now I have earned and saved the money to buy pretty much what I want but I am not driven by the flaw of "newest, biggest, and best" so a lot of the discussion posted thus far does not convince me of any particular conclusion since I don't know from what perspective the advice was drawn. How do you sail the world in your 40's if you are earning your daily bread as you go? I don't believe that is possible if you have any type of familial obligations. If it is perhaps a booklet explaining the mechanics would be a best seller......

I also think the question about the time spent on your boat is relevant to conclusions to be drawn from the discussion. A short getaway machine is much easier to deal with than a lifetime.....

Anyway, I really enjoy the information I have gained from this forum. A few years ago I was considering a motorhome as a means of recreating but in perusing those forums I quickly concluded that I did not have much in common with most of the denizens who inhabit those forums. That same feeling is evident with some of the resident's here but in the big picture I think a sail boat is much more desirable than a land yacht. At least it is easy to escape the boors and narcissists......


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## outbound

My reality may be different.
Do passages with 3. Means 3h watches to get 6h sleep intervals. Means all single watches except for weather.
Do cruising with two ( wife and I) means single watches.
This means 95% single watches even when others on boat.
Yes for evolutions in high wind or landfalls there are at least 2 up but still most times single watches.
Anything that improves situational awareness is a blessing.
Use split screen radar/chart to compare chart to contour. Use depth to compare with numbers on chart. Use exclusion zones on radar/AIS near constantly. Love vessel info displayed. Tells me how far away I must be to avoid wake, tows and sudden course changes of targets.
Still run a recording barometer and do downloads but radar tells you local weather and usually lets you get on correct side of squalls to get a lift not a header.
Have displays at nav, companionway and helm. ( also on IPads). Want everyone to be always situationally aware. More then once the person NOT on watch has brought some key piece of info to the acute attention of the watch stander avoiding catastrophe . Reality is people get tire. They day dream. They get distracted. The small screens are problematic. For most hard to see. Not as easy to move through data sets. Not intregrated with AP. yes we have nav programs on IPad and laptop. Never used. There only as backup.


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## outbound

Some other random thoughts.
Mortgage means insurance. Insurance means some lose of freedom. Insurance means need for them to vet you and crew before passages. Most dangerous time for a cruiser is the first few years. Insurance knows this. New owner doesn't know boat, his/hers capabilities, peculiarities of passage and has yet to gain the wisdom only cruising teaches. I have learned more in the last two years of nearly full time cruising than in the past 30 even though those past 30 included multiple Bermuda races. Sure once you done a particular passage a dozen times insurance will let you go off with just your cat as crew but until then you need to pass everything by them.
Mortgage means you play with other people's money. At present return on investment is higher than interest with little effort or risk. It still has tax advantage. So without question it means more money in cruising kitty. Just don't over extend. Always have enough liquidity to pay mortgage off anytime need arises.
Boat selection is a risk/benefit decision. Life is good. I choose my boat and feel safe on her, am pleased with her performance and delight in living on her. I would not feel the same on many other boats. I pay a penalty for this. I need to curtail my other expenses. I have more to maintain. She's a child and like a loved child you always need to attend to her needs first. I spend much time learning about things I never thought I would need to know. Slowly becoming a better electronics tech, marine wrench, HVAC tech etc. never without at least one bruise or totally intact skin on my hands. Still, find it endlessly fascinating. Many conversations start or end with "it's a boat".


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## CruisingKitty

capecodda said:


> 42 is the answer. Read the hitch hikers guide.


Couldn't agree more. 42.


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## alanr77

Don: Lol, that's funny.  I don't think that was a flaming though; sounds to me like an opportunity to learn something and possibly repair your system. If not, then yes, I can understand why you don't see it as helpful. As others have said before, fancy gear is great until it doesn't work right. I am curious though to see if someone can help you, someone else might have the same issue. If not, well that's cool too. I do understand your point.

Rocky: Hello! Anyway, interesting point of view. I do have some comments, the ones that pop into your mind when you first read something but I want to think about why I thought them before responding. I have a good friend who completely renovated and outfitted a 27' boat with nice equipment with no real job, no investments and no trust fund. My reply requires some detail that surpasses my capability while drinking coffee and typing on my phone.

Outbound: Very true. Full time cruising is night and day from weekending. It's been a while but I remember one thing in particular. You don't get truly comfortable and in tune with your surroundings until about day 5 on a passage. I only experienced that while traveling up and down the coast on the outside. Never while messing around locally. It's hard to really understand unless you've done it.Which you obviously have.
I definitely understand what your saying about the finances. In my situation, a lot of the bigger boat requirement is wife driven. I have a soft spot in my heart for boats like Jon's. I also love Tartan 34c's. The issue with those boats is that I'd be alone in my future travels. I'm sure when the time comes and I have to sell my beloved 30, a compromise will be made and we'll end up somewhere in between. I've always had a rule that I don't finance toys. But when we're talking about a 47' boat like a 470, we'Re talking about a house......


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## Minnesail

outbound said:


> Many conversations start or end with "it's a boat".


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## alanr77

Rocky: Originally I started to type a long reply to your post addressing some of the points that you brought up. However, I decided to let you maybe explain more about what you are getting at. My collegiate experience was focused on Political Science and Social Sciences. So I immediately recognized a strong reference to socioeconomic class struggles and bias. I am not sure how to apply that to this thread or even if it is relevant to the thread in the first place. I do have opinions on what you are talking about, but out of all of them, the only thing that is a fact is that you don't need any of this stuff to enjoy the sport. But this thread wasn't about how to sail for free or on a budget. It was about what conveniences have you added to your boat, why do you like them and what do you want your next boat to have. You noted that "nothing convinced you" but that was never the intention in the first place. An example would be "I added a refrigerator because I like cold water. I haven't had any issues with it though I would like a bigger one in my next boat" Not: " You need to have a refrigerator in your boat because warm water is bad". It's to be expected on an open forum but you have to sift through the opinions to get the actual experiences. 

So if you feel inclined, what modern conveniences do you currently have and what will definitely be on your next boat?


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## Don L

alanr77 said:


> So if you feel inclined, what modern conveniences do you currently have and what will definitely be on your next boat?


I have solar because I like cold beer!

Basically I spent $1600 to keep $460 worth of batteries charged so that I could leave the refrigerator on all the time while on my mooring so I could always have the beer cold when I showed up at the boat.

The other upside is that there always food in the freezer and in the refrigerator side and I don't have to stop to get it each time I go to the boat.

How's that?


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## alanr77

LOL! I was aiming that at Rocky to try and keep the thread inline with the spirit of the thread and out of socioeconomic politics but yes! That's great!  

That's a pretty solid sounding setup. I'm with ya on the cold drinks man. I think I said it earlier but I've only recently started using ice on board. It was always to much of a hassle and I just wrapped my drinks in wet cloth and sat them in front of the fan. Works surprisingly well and costs nothing. Alas, I stepped over to the dark side and started stocking a cooler on both boats. Now I have cold drinks at the ready. Sitting in my garage providing a nice place for the cat to sleep is a new Engel MB40 waiting to be installed. I can't wait. I'm gonna feel like royalty being able to keep things cold indefinitely. I've been working out the support system for it to ensure, like you, it continues to do it's job while we are off the grid. I don't know what your setup is but are your panels keeping up with the amp draw? Do you have a top load or side door and has it affected your power usage? Did you add any external insulation around the unit? Any problems?


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## Don L

alanr77 said:


> I don't know what your setup is but are your panels keeping up with the amp draw? Do you have a top load or side door and has it affected your power usage? Did you add any external insulation around the unit? Any problems?


290W panel has kept the batteries charged for 3 years now and most days the system has gotten the batteries fully charged including 2 hours at absorption. Freezer is top loading and the frig top & side door loading. Factory insulation has been fine and the system cycles on/off but if it needed to it could run 100% of the time and not be a power problem. In the past 3 years the most I've ever seen the batteries down is 80AH after a night passage.


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## Rocky Mountain Breeze

My intent with this post was merely to broaden the perspective of those who provide information. Advice from someone to which money is not a factor can differentiate greatly from someone sailing on whatever they can scrounge and definition of the perspective is often more important than the advice offered. I am not trying to open any type of political debate, but advice is only as useful as how it can be applied to the problem at hand. I was raised on a farm in southern Iowa and we solved all of the problems that were presented to us whether mechanical, crop, or animal related by formulating solutions by the means we had available. If you have the funds to purchase and operate a 250 KW generator power can certainly be much easier to obtain than if you have $350 in spare funding. My problem with the socioeconomic view of website participants is that the socioeconomic factors tend to overshadow the practical advice that is sought after, and without perspective most advice is useless. Hopefully this information can be incorporated into future postings.


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## outbound

When I was living on ramen noodles, potatoes and rice I quickly learned it's very expensive to be poor. 
I keep a galleon of water in the bottom of the frig along with four ice cube trays in the freezer. We have a whole boat filtration system. ( read this months practical sailor)). No plastic water bottles, no store bought water, no dragging water to the boat which is very heavy and difficult. Splash lemon or lime juice into the water. Put in stainless steel sports bottle. Good to go. Pay 15-25 cents a galleon for fresh water in the expensive places. Free elsewhere. 
I run the genset once a month just so it gets run. With two large panels and two D400s run the frig/freezer, stereo, all nav/communications systems, lights etc. and never draw down the batteries. Therefore, no diesel use. Have done close to 10k miles this year. Filled the diesel tanks once.
Keep my eyes open on good deals for food. Having enough space for storage and room in frig/freezer can wait to stock up until prices are favorable.
Same with diesel can wait for place with good fuel at good price.
In short with boat having the size to allow solar, wind, ample tankage and storage the cost of living goes down. Having two efficient keel cooled frig/freezer units energy consumption goes down.frig has access doors on top and side. Freezer only from top. There are myriad examples where blowing the money for good stuff in the beginning saves money and increases independence while improving quality of life.


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## MikeOReilly

I completely agree Outbound. What you describe is how I understand frugal living. It's not about being cheap, it's about being wise with your resources. It doesn't matter where you are on the financial spectrum, living frugally is simple about living smartly with what you have. 

This is why I think focusing on the 'smallest boat you can live with' is a nice shorthand way of living wisely (frugally). I'm definitely not saying get the smallest boat you can squeeze into. I'm saying find the smallest boat that can support your needs. And those needs include (for me) being able to operate independently for months at a time. Being able to be away from services and docks for months. Being comfortable and secure in my foundational systems ... this is what it means to be frugal. 

I think too many in our societies have lost this sense of value ... of frugality. Being frugal has been distorted by those who want to sell us more and more crap into somehow being cheap or bad. It's just the opposite.

And in case it's not obvious, I cruise in a 37' boat. I couldn't live with a 30' boat, nor could I live with a 45'. At this point our older 37-footer is right. 


Why go fast, when you can go slow


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## goat

I certainly hope you are photo documenting your solar bimini installation Mike. There are probably a few of us in the planning stages right now. I can think of one off the top of my head. ;^)


goat


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## MikeOReilly

goat said:


> I certainly hope you are photo documenting your solar bimini installation Mike. There are probably a few of us in the planning stages right now. I can think of one off the top of my head. ;^)


Hi goat, I'll grab some pics along the way. I may not finish the project this season. I have to close up the boat soon to head off to a memorial service for mom-in-law, but I'll keep everyone posted. Other SN members like jerryrlitton and mbianka have done the same project. They were the inspiration for my project. They've posted pics elsewhere, and here mbianka's great blog post: 
THE BIANKA LOG BLOG: SOLAR BIMINI PART SEVEN: PANELS INSTALLED


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## alanr77

"It doesn't matter where you are on the financial spectrum, living frugally is simple about living smartly with what you have."

You should copy write that, it's near perfect. 

One could apply that to doing extremely in depth research about a project before opening your wallet. Taking a good look at why you need or want something and then looking for the exact item to accomplish that without getting more than you need. It is amazing to actually see this theory in practice when you meticulously plan a project. I think a lot of people fail at the huge undertaking and commitment it takes to restore an old boat by not applying this logic. I mean, we all can probably point to a time or story abut the guy with more money than brains. There are many people who make up for, or at least try to make up for a lack of knowledge, skill or experience by throwing money at a problem. I know quite a few skippers who at first glance, I.E Tartan 4100, sailor oriented attire; Sperrys on the bottom and a Helly Hansen pullover up top, pristine boat with all the latest high tech gear, who cannot dock their boat to save their life. This is the same guy who has brand new 5 year old sails and 6500 hours on his engine. He proudly displays his 6-PAK certificate so that you can't miss it when you step down into the saloon. But I would be horrified to go out of sight of land with this guy. He talks a big game at the yacht club bar, you would think he could teach Jon a thing or two. But try and find him under sail in anything less than a stalled high with a rock solid forecast. You'll be waiting for awhile. Money does not make a good captain, though it might buy you one. 

While I agree that your financial position may allow a broader access to mod cons and may influence your outfitting, I think it's important to recognize that sailing is a recreational sport. It is an extra in life that makes life much more enjoyable and as such is by many considered a luxury. I would hope that a person who cannot afford to feed his family is not trying to buy and outfit a sailing yacht. Common sense would say that he/she might need help in prioritizing their wants and needs. I personally have never been a hand held, silver spoon fed beneficiary of anything. I worked incredibly hard for everything that I have and sacrificed quite a lot for the retirement that I now enjoy. When discussing small sailboat, say 35' and below, none of these mod cons are out of reach to anyone willing to work a little harder or save a little longer. Used refrigeration systems can be found on Ebay for under $400.00. That's a case of beer a week for 5 months. Or working an extra 10 hours a week at $9.00 an hour for 4 months. If you want something, there is always a way to get it. You just have to be willing to make sacrifices in order to achieve those goals. 

Then again, the boat that I have the most fond memories of had none of these mod cons. It had navigation lights and a VHF that I got off Craigslist. Basically none of the extras were required to have a good day out sailing. 

It's interesting to read about systems, like Don's, that are self sustaining. What have been the long term maintenance requirements for a system like that? Once the system is properly installed, what are the wear parts on a solar system like that? My experiences with solar recharging systems has been over a short time span, 4-5 years at the most. I can't imagine except for corrosion issues with the wiring, that there would be much. Basically I'm saying that it seems to be a one time large purchase. Do solar panels wear out? Lose their efficiency over time? As far as mechanical items go, properly maintained mechanical items seem to last a long time. I mean my Atomic 4 is raw water cooled, and yet when I tore it apart to minor rebuild, I was surprised to see just how well it had held up over 39 years of saltwater usage. I ended up only having to rebuild the top end; and that wasn't really even needed. It just seemed prudent to replace the head gasket and other bit's while I was in there. I can't imagine a generator being much more difficult to keep up. 

So when discussing mod cons in our boats, what would someone consider to be a reasonable service life for an HVAC unit or for a refrigerator/freezer? Or barring failure due to neglect or manufacturing defects, could it be safe to say that's it only expensive once?


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## MikeOReilly

alanr77 said:


> "It doesn't matter where you are on the financial spectrum, living frugally is simple about living smartly with what you have."
> 
> You should copy write that, it's near perfect.


Thanks Alan. Done ... As the author, I automatically own the copyright (and this goes for stuff written online as well, despite what some people think).



alanr77 said:


> One could apply that to doing extremely in depth research about a project before opening your wallet. Taking a good look at why you need or want something and then looking for the exact item to accomplish that without getting more than you need. It is amazing to actually see this theory in practice when you meticulously plan a project.


Agreed. I tend to over-research any new item or system I acquire for our boat (and for life in general). New/improved boat systems must address an actual need we have. It also has to be sustainable over the expected life of the item. By that I mean (as I've said elsewhere), they have to either be maintainable and repairable by me with my somewhat megre skills and resources, or they have to be highly reliable (hence, not needing much support).



alanr77 said:


> Money does not make a good captain, though it might buy you one.


Exactly so. And for those who have large financial resources, it's certainly possible to buy your way out of most boat problems. That's great for those folks. For us with more modest finances, we need to rely on other resources like personal skills, time, and sometimes the kindness of others. This is why I keep saying it's the mismatch between resources and systems that is the problem, not the actual mod cons themselves.



alanr77 said:


> While I agree that your financial position may allow a broader access to mod cons and may influence your outfitting, I think it's important to recognize that sailing is a recreational sport.


Ah, here's where we differ. Certainly it is a sport and a luxury for the vast majority of boat owners, but not for me and for many other cruisers. My boat is my only home right now (outside of my two-person tent). I have never sailed as a sport. It's a lifestyle. It's a means to an end. It's just an entirely desirable way to live and to travel. Sport, it is not.


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## alanr77

Mike: Forgive my vagueness in my words, I always, for better or worse, try to think about the potential to incite defensiveness by offending those who do not see the world as I do. One read of the thread over on CF called "are liveaboards unwelcome" should provide a good example of what happens when people take offense to the viewpoints of others and start talking past each other. It really deconstructs the usefulness of a thread and detracts from the value of the information that can be gained by contributing and reading it. It's the reason why I try to avoid the which is better argument and instead focus on the what you personally do and why aspect. Having said that, I do not have an interest in racing either. What I meant by recreational sport is simply that you are choosing to live on your boat, or you are choosing to have refrigeration. I applied this logic to the three things that are not recreational; food, water and shelter. The point I was trying to make was directed at Rockys post. A sailboat is an optional item in life. We are not required to have one nor is it necessary to sustain life; or I'll even go as far as to say it's not necessary to have a comfortable life. So with that in mind, as it applies to Rockys opinion, if a person cannot afford to have any of these luxuries it's not a life threatening problem. Part of my response was influenced by my own personal opinions towards the people who cannot afford to take care of their children or buy decent food to eat but come on Sailnet asking about how to buy a cheap sailboat and live the dream. Nothing against those people at all but I think life should entail priorities, and the application of those priorities. So yes, I totally agree that it's a lifestyle. Though I don't live aboard I am a cruiser and therefore I live it 24/7 as you do. But neither you nor I are forced to be here doing this and I think I can safely assume, based on reading your other posts on this forum, that if you had to choose between buying a watermaker for your sailboat and buying groceries for your family, I think I know what you would choose to do. But then again, I could be wrong. 

So lets talk about priorities;

Lets assume you have a 40' wonder that has been well maintained. She is sea ready and is outfitted with all the gear one would want to have aboard in order to safely complete a passage from Annapolis to Bermuda. But the boat is basic. It has an icebox typical of the 1970's, two 35 gallon fresh water tanks and a non pressurized, cold water only fresh water system. Basic electrical system, reserve and house, 200-600ah. Correctly wired to support navigation and interior lights. Basic VHF and simple stereo system. Basically the equipment everybody cruised with in the 70's. The system is sound and properly installed. You have a basic 2 burner LPG stove top. Standard pump action head with 20 gallon black water tank with a Y-valve setup for offshore discharge. Suitable diesel engine with an alternator of acceptable amp output. The simple system at this point doesn't require much more and as is, you can run the engine for a few hours every other day to maintain your batteries. Basically imagine a simple, well found cruising boat. A to B with no mod cons. How would you (anyone reading this) prioritize the mod cons on this boat? 

My first step would be to choose a top loading refrigerator/freezer and calculate the required amp hours to have it powered up continuously. I would then add either solar or wind power generation to cover this amp hour draw. That would be step one for me. The ability to keep and store perishables along with not having to find a way to lug ice to the boat every couple of days has become very important to me. To me, it's a luxury that's worth the expense and would seriously improve the long term livability of the boat. Plus, the increase in electrical capacity would set up the system for my step two. 

What would you do?


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## outbound

There is some talking past each other here in my view.
Blue water sailing is a different skill set than boat handling. I'm going to pull my pants down. I've been sailing for nearly forty years. I had done multiple Bermuda races -as crew, captain and cestestial navigator with good showings. I had done multiple blue water passages. Enough to join OCC years ago. My prior boats were kept on moorings. For docking skills I just needed the rare trip to the fuel dock which was usually done on windless days at slack tide. My boat handling skills where negliable when I launched my new Outbound two years ago. This is the largest boat I've ever owned. The last two years of going in and out of slips in all conditions and in new places has been quite an education. I yet (knock on wood) to do any damage to my boat or any other which is a blessing. I remain far from skilled at this task. You may read, you may be taught but nothing I mean nothing teaches or replaces experience. You don't get experience cruising until you are cruising. Four decades of one/two week coastal cruises, occasional blue water race in June, boat on hard for winters was not close to a sufficient education.
In medicine they say you don't truly know something until you - watch one, do one and teach one. This is true for any skill in my view. 
You have no idea of the skill set of others by observing them in just one task. It's a rare person I can't learn something from.
Sailing is not a recreational sport for me. It is a integral part of my life. I sleep on the boat more than on land. I travel more on the boat than land. My social circle increasingly is fellow cruisers so I spend more time with sailors than dirt dwellers.
Regardless of resources if you cruise by necessity you will be forced to learn how the systems on your boat work and how to maintain and fix them. Even if you are paying someone else to turn the wrench you need to know this. You soon learn your life depends on this which rapidly clarifies your thinking. You rapidly learn how to judge the adequacy of the efforts of "paid help".
Unless you are ultra wealthy ( in which case your captain/crew sails your boat and you are live lumber) you will find yourself very concerned about the durability of everything in your boat as well as ease of use, maintenance and repair. You will figure this out the first time you are off the gird or even anywhere you are dependent on shipping for spares and repair supplies.
Dealing with Xmas winds, kite season and time schedules of crew teaches new skills in how to function in heavy air, fog, confused seas. It's one thing when you can say "it will past" another when you know it won't for some days or even weeks. Skills in Provisioning, cooking, personal sanitation take on new levels of complexity. 
There is a reason those Musto s cost more than the WM foulies. Live in them for a week and regardless of resources you'll want the Mustos or equivalent. My Xmas present was dubarrys. One of the best presents I ever got. 
Sorry to rant. But as a relative newbie to full time cruising my eyes have been forced wide open. Sometimes I vent when I think posts are not respectful of those who have those skills or have courage to get the experience by cruising to learn those skills.


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## outbound

Top loading sounds great until you provision for a long cruise. Our frig has both front door and top hatch. Commonly used things are accessed from the top. Also things least used are in the back. With proper organization either access is open very briefly and little or nothing needs to taken out to get what you want.
Let's say it's night or bumpy or the "wrong tack" - with just top loading you are going to be emptying and filling up that frig a whole lot. That frig is going to be open a lot longer than necessary. Food is going to be out of frig for some time. Food is going to go wandering around the boat once you fill up the sinks with food.
Just saying - you may be cycling that frig or damaging food while trying to get access more than you think.


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## aeventyr60

I sealed off my butcher block style side opening door many moons ago, never missed it once. Over time learned about packing the fridge and freezer for long term offshore use. Usually the bottom of both fridge and freezer are packed with items i know I won't use for weeks and maybe months...A few large tupper ware boxes to sort out a few things. Pretty much have the food usage down to a science so am not digging around any more. As the fridge/freezer becomes empty that space is taken up by either water bottles or beer. Closer to port and when not carrying as much food the large space next to my freezer will hold 100+ beers, one needs to have their priorities sorted out...


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## outbound

To address your recent question about priorities.
First- appropriate sails. For a cruiser this means sails that can be rapidly and and safely be raised, reeled ans struck by one person in any sea state. This means both light and heavy air sails. The suit of sails used by many recreational sailors are not appropriate to long term cruising.
Second- ssb and satphone. It is assumed all obligate safety equipment rafts epirbs, mom modules etc. are already there.
Two frig/ freezer units. Food is very expensive and necessary for life. On cruises lets alone passage replacing food is problematic.
Depending on cruising ground a watermaker. Paradise is a desert. Last two years rain in the Caribbean has been trivial. Little there was had high particulate due to Sahara dust being heavy this year. Unless you cruise the pacific north west having any dependence on rain catching systems may be foolhardy. Even in New England meaningful water has fallen as snow or sleet. Rain during the cruising season is not significant enough to even partially defer another source.
Devise, reconstruct or spec to achieve dedicated work shop/ tool and spare storage. Had long talk with pro captain running a mid fifties bene. He had plastic boxes everywhere. One of the aft cabins had the cushions lifted up so he could store stuff and work without totally wrecking the interior. 
Depending on cruising area - heat. Amazing how rapidly people's ability to function and think declines when they are cold. Think dry heat from hydronics best, forced hot air second and any stove device a distance third. Having combustion in the interior living space adds moisture and has risk of CO. Burns and fire are less concerns as less likely with well designed heating stove.


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## outbound

Use the tupper ware as well. Also have one partial easy removed shelf in both frig and freezer. Door is airtight with r value slightly higher than rest of frig. Admit there is a favored tack for its use. But wouldn't dream of giving it up. Find we live very differently on passage then when just cruising. So best of both worlds.
Don't like any one opening either frig or freezer longer than necessary or using door when electricity an issue. Find keeping them closed as much as possible keep need for defrost down as well as juice use.


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## outbound

Would mention don't use Tupperware in freezer. Wife found very small, open mesh ditty bags. Put frozen veggies in one, beef in another, chicken/fish in a third etc.
Find things freeze faster, you can pack more in and they are placed side by side and labelled on outside so less rummaging.


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## alanr77

OutBound: Its 419 in the morning so maybe my brain isn't working right but I'll give this a shot anyway. Post 203 was a great post. But I'm quite confused by a few things you mentioned. If you got anything even close to a disrespectful statement out of my post, we are definitely talking past each other. I actually went back and 're-read my post multiple times to try and understand where you got that from and I don't see how I could have written it any better. The only possibility is that we are confusing what replies are intended for who. I have a bad habit of placing a name in front of a reply and then forgetting to change the name when I move on to someone else. Rocky brought up the aspect of not being able to afford modern conveniences because of family obligations and that's what I was replying to. But now I'll address you directly because I don't think you understand what I was trying to say. By recreational it means you are CHOOSING to live on your boat. I understand you live on it and it is your lifestyle and your friends are cruisers. But you are not living on your boat because you are poor and cannot afford a home. A person on welfare who doesn't know where there next meal is coming from is not deciding whether or not to have a refrigerator on their boat. Their not concerned about a boat at all. What we do is a luxury. Luxury doesn't have to mean monetary. I think the confusion is due to my definition of recreational sport. I'm not talking about racing. We have the luxury of deciding to cruise a sailboat. I was really trying to avoid rockys post because his situation doesn't apply to me, or you, but I figured it was fair to at least try. And this was the result. I was hoping for a thread that discussed the technical aspects of using modern tech devices on our boats to make life more enjoyable yet I'm constantly defending myself against what everyone else thinks is the only way to do something. I actually agree with 99.999% of what you say as believe it or not, our views on cruising are very similar. I wasn't disrespecting Mike in any way either. Its hard sometimes to get a point across because our definitions of words can be easily misconstrued. As far as courage to cruise a boat....your experience, Mike's experience, Jon's experience, were never in question and were never brought up. Good god man! I don't have experience cruising a 46' boat offshore. What I have is experience cruising a 25' boat offshore. I would ROUTINELY take a 25'er from Jacksonville to Annapolis and back on the outside of the stream. It may not be the South Pacific but it's pretty darn much on your own. I'm the guy you guys talk about taking production boats beyond what they were intended to do. I'm the guy who modifies them to make them suitable. I help others do the same. I've experienced enough first hand, by myself to make my own educated decisions about what happens on my watch, on my boat. I know what cold and wet feels like and it's the reason I DID spend $2000 on my foulies- and I'm about to spend double that on the new Aegir system. While that's all fine and dandy, that's not even what this thread is about. You brought up some excellent points in your posts and they have been immensely helpful in what I was trying to learn. Your points are invaluable to me because your style of cruising is what we are likely headed towards. I can't do the hellride on a 25 anymore and my wife sure as he!! won't accompany me because she thought I was crazy to do that in the first place. I never wanted to debate what the requirements were to do a passage because beyond the stuff that ANYONE going offshore should have, such as a full suit of sails, repair parts ect. I was talking about refrigeration and dishwasher's! Lol.  so it should have been clear from the beginning that I wanted to discuss the neat little MODERN CONVENIENCES that make life a little better and more comfortable. Not In a force 10 storm at 40 degrees but at anchor or tied to the dock. 

I don't even know how or why were even talking about any of this. I dont see how a thread discussing the technical aspects of mod cons fell into the realm of respect, disrespect, personal offshore skills and socioeconomic's. I guess I failed miserably at trying to steer this in the right direction and the right thing for me to do at this point is respectfully bow out.


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## seaner97

alanr77 said:


> OutBound: Its 419 in the morning so maybe my brain isn't working right but I'll give this a shot anyway. Post 203 was a great post. But I'm quite confused by a few things you mentioned. If you got anything even close to a disrespectful statement out of my post, we are definitely talking past each other. I actually went back and 're-read my post multiple times to try and understand where you got that from and I don't see how I could have written it any better. The only possibility is that we are confusing what replies are intended for who. I have a bad habit of placing a name in front of a reply and then forgetting to change the name when I move on to someone else. Rocky brought up the aspect of not being able to afford modern conveniences because of family obligations and that's what I was replying to. But now I'll address you directly because I don't think you understand what I was trying to say. By recreational it means you are CHOOSING to live on your boat. I understand you live on it and it is your lifestyle and your friends are cruisers. But you are not living on your boat because you are poor and cannot afford a home. A person on welfare who doesn't know where there next meal is coming from is not deciding whether or not to have a refrigerator on their boat. Their not concerned about a boat at all. What we do is a luxury. Luxury doesn't have to mean monetary. I think the confusion is due to my definition of recreational sport. I'm not talking about racing. We have the luxury of deciding to cruise a sailboat. I was really trying to avoid rockys post because his situation doesn't apply to me, or you, but I figured it was fair to at least try. And this was the result. I was hoping for a thread that discussed the technical aspects of using modern tech devices on our boats to make life more enjoyable yet I'm constantly defending myself against what everyone else thinks is the only way to do something. I actually agree with 99.999% of what you say as believe it or not, our views on cruising are very similar. I wasn't disrespecting Mike in any way either. Its hard sometimes to get a point across because our definitions of words can be easily misconstrued. As far as courage to cruise a boat....your experience, Mike's experience, Jon's experience, were never in question and were never brought up. Good god man! I don't have experience cruising a 46' boat offshore. What I have is experience cruising a 25' boat offshore. I would ROUTINELY take a 25'er from Jacksonville to Annapolis and back on the outside of the stream. It may not be the South Pacific but it's pretty darn much on your own. I'm the guy you guys talk about taking production boats beyond what they were intended to do. I'm the guy who modifies them to make them suitable. I help others do the same. I've experienced enough first hand, by myself to make my own educated decisions about what happens on my watch, on my boat. I know what cold and wet feels like and it's the reason I DID spend $2000 on my foulies- and I'm about to spend double that on the new Aegir system. While that's all fine and dandy, that's not even what this thread is about. You brought up some excellent points in your posts and they have been immensely helpful in what I was trying to learn. Your points are invaluable to me because your style of cruising is what we are likely headed towards. I can't do the hellride on a 25 anymore and my wife sure as he!! won't accompany me because she thought I was crazy to do that in the first place. I never wanted to debate what the requirements were to do a passage because beyond the stuff that ANYONE going offshore should have, such as a full suit of sails, repair parts ect. I was talking about refrigeration and dishwasher's! Lol.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> so it should have been clear from the beginning that I wanted to discuss the neat little MODERN CONVENIENCES that make life a little better and more comfortable. Not In a force 10 storm at 40 degrees but at anchor or tied to the dock.
> 
> I don't even know how or why were even talking about any of this. I dont see how a thread discussing the technical aspects of mod cons fell into the realm of respect, disrespect, personal offshore skills and socioeconomic's. I guess I failed miserably at trying to steer this in the right direction and the right thing for me to do at this point is respectfully bow out.


No bowing out. This has been one of the most interesting threads of the past 3 years. An admirable discussion. The recent drift is just a little meandering, and well meant, I think. 
An interesting question- are there some mod cons that are more reliable for those NOT living aboard or vice versa?


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## outbound

actually think it's the other way around.


Due to family and business obligations have periods of time when the boat just sits. Also occurs when I when I just want to stay put for awhile. Beyond bottom fouling I am convinced for many things that's when they break. Think it's just like other conveyances when the oil is hot water leaves. When used things water lubricated stay good. Grease lubrication is pushed through its channels. Chaff is spotted right away. Metal is kept polished. 
Even with pickling water makers need to be run. Think the same with genset , AC, engines, pumps and heads. Be curious if that's others experience as well. Great question.


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## seaner97

outbound said:


> actually think it's the other way around.
> 
> Due to family and business obligations have periods of time when the boat just sits. Also occurs when I when I just want to stay put for awhile. Beyond bottom fouling I am convinced for many things that's when they break. Think it's just like other conveyances when the oil is hot water leaves. When used things water lubricated stay good. Grease lubrication is pushed through its channels. Chaff is spotted right away. Metal is kept polished.
> Even with pickling water makers need to be run. Think the same with genset , AC, engines, pumps and heads. Be curious if that's others experience as well. Great question.


I think that was my expectation- that mechanical things don't like disuse, but I am wondering if there are specific things (as well as brands, models, etc...) that don't mind this as much. For those of us that cruise rather than liveaboard many of these things may sit for as much as a month, unused, even if we do daysails in between. For those of us in short season Maine, they're going to get winterized and mothballed for 3/4 of the year. If there are models that are up to that task more than others, I'd like to hear about them.


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## outbound

So far anything that was marinized doesn't last as long as anything built to ABYC standard from scratch.
Anything engineered but built in China is suspect. My boat was built in China and construction is first rate but components are EU or US sourced. Heard the same about Poland where many Euro boats are fabricated. Great boats if components are from elsewhere.
One reason haven't put in washer/dryer is all seem to be RV units. Concerned about durability in marine environs.


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## seaner97

outbound said:


> So far anything that was marinized doesn't last as long as anything built to ABYC standard from scratch.
> Anything engineered but built in China is suspect. My boat was built in China and construction is first rate but components are EU or US sourced. Heard the same about Poland where many Euro boats are fabricated. Great boats if components are from elsewhere.
> One reason haven't put in washer/dryer is all seem to be RV units. Concerned about durability in marine environs.


I've got nothing against Chinese merchandise per say. Parts and build quality is somewhat suspect, but it's like British and American cars in the 70s- some good with a whole bunch bad that gives them all a bad rap. At the risk of turning this into a one stop shop for reviews it would be nice if people had specific experience with some mod cons (models/manufacturers and how they use them) that were either really good or really bad and wanted to share.


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## aeventyr60

^Get out on the water more. That way you will have good reason to have wet panties. Grow a thicker skin too.


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## Erindipity

As one of the original responders on this topic, can I ask for a Time Out?
Let it sit for a week, and then dig in again.

My Portable Icemaker has become infested with Bugs. I originally thought that those little black bits in the Ice were just mineral Pipe Crud.
But when the Ice melted, they wriggled. ew.
I would like to identify them further, but I _still_ haven't got a Ship's Microscope.

¬Erindipity


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## aeventyr60

^I think Outbound was spot on in his comment. Many will ask the questions and not like the responses from those that do have the experience...We see see the same thing thread after thread...Nobody questioned your courage either.


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## alanr77

I deleted most of my responses as they were irrelevant. No one argued against the responses of people who had used this stuff before. That was the whole point of the thread. The experiences. I keep trying to inject possibilities into it. Instead of condemnation explain why it didn't work and maybe we can find a way to make it work. That's why I got frustrated. If you look at my general thread contributions on this forum, they usually involve the technical aspects of the gear. That's my strong suit and what I'm interested in. That's why I started the thread. It's not possible for me to have five different refrigerators. So I ask in the hope that I get five different views. Your explanation is very correct..........when applied to sailing techniques and rig set ups. I'm trying to get beyond that and explore things that are new. The disagreement had nothing to do with any of the topic at hand. I should have let it go but being human I couldn't. Point taken.


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## outbound

Hate cleaning paddle wheel of speedo so spec'd airmar CS 4500 ultrasonic speedo for my Raymarine system. Failed on passage. Meant AP could steer a course but not a wind angle. PIA as meant constant fiddling with sails. Called Raymarine and was told they no longer install that part therefore I was on my own. After big hassle got Airmar to replace for free. Spent a day and some blood and skin installing replacement. It failed in less then 1/2y. 
Bought a ST800 on my own dime ( $60 where as ultrasonic was ~$450). Installed it last week. It works fine.


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## seaner97

I missed most of this as only one came to my email and by the time I got here cooler heads had prevailed, but let me point out that Alan clearly uses a keyboard to do this and it seems out may be more likely using the mobile site and a phone with auto correct, which does strange things to your posts, so sometimes a little slack goes a long way. 
Regarding the "I think it's the other way around" comment, I took it as a misread of my constant vs disuse post (missed the vice versa). 
I, for one, think time on the water is time in the water. The prejudice against stinkpotters here is one that is born out of the fact that there are many more of them and the moron element is therefore larger as well. Add that to the amplification of stupidity that comes with speed and the people it attracts. Apply my comments regarding Chinese goods above. 
Anyway, as a former neurosurgeon (which is what I think Out was- correct me if I'm wrong, it's a guess based on some of his comments and his boat name) I highly doubt he was questioning your courage in any way. Personally, one of my friends was a marine RIO and every time a plane went down I worried it was him, so while I chose to save kids lives rather than risk mine, I've got some idea of what your sacrifice means. Back to gear- what works, what doesn't, and what makes your life better. I'd still like to hear about stuff that breaks every winter during haul out or stuff that is flawless with zero maintenance for years.


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## jerryrlitton

outbound said:


> Hate cleaning paddle wheel of speedo so spec'd airmar CS 4500 ultrasonic speedo for my Raymarine system. Failed on passage. Meant AP could steer a course but not a wind angle. PIA as meant constant fiddling with sails. Called Raymarine and was told they no longer install that part therefore I was on my own. After big hassle got Airmar to replace for free. Spent a day and some blood and skin installing replacement. It failed in less then 1/2y.
> Bought a ST800 on my own dime ( $60 where as ultrasonic was ~$450). Installed it last week. It works fine.


Outbound, when your CS 4500 Ultrasonic Speedo died your autopilot was still able to maintain a course? As in the line connecting two points which is called to magnetic or true course line? It will stay on that line? My AP only receives info from the magnetic flux gate/valve so it only holds a heading, not a course. I have to keep adjusting the heading of I want to maintain the original course since the wind and ocean currents are not that consistent. Course and heading are two different things. Loosely related.


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## MikeOReilly

Wow, I go away for a few days and BOOM! All heck (apparently) breaks out. I'm not really sure who's annoyed at whom, and for what. I hope none of my posts are to blame, and as for me, I haven't found any reason to take offence from anyone's comments. It's been an interesting discussion at times, so all good. 

My mod cons include a fridge (with freezerish small zone), AIS receiver and (soon) radar. The fridge is top-loading, which has never been a problem. AIS has been useful when we transit busy shipping areas, radar will be useful when we travel the St. Lawrence and the Maritimes, and the fridge keeps my beer cool. Oh, and my charging system consists of a 400 watt wind generator, 100 watts (expanding to 400 watts) of solar, as well as the main diesel alternator. All this is mainly to support the cold beer addiction, since we really don't use much power outside of the fridge anyway. 


Why go fast, when you can go slow


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## ThirdCoastSailor

I mean, I was just looking at a combination washer and dryer that can run off a 2000 watt inverter and would actually fit on my 30' boat. 

What washer/dryer combo is that? I found a washer that will BARELY fit in my 38 footer.

TCS


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## jerryrlitton

ThirdCoastSailor said:


> I mean, I was just looking at a combination washer and dryer that can run off a 2000 watt inverter and would actually fit on my 30' boat.
> 
> What washer/dryer combo is that? I found a washer that will BARELY fit in my 38 footer.
> 
> TCS


I put a stackable washer dryer combo between the captains chairs. I just feed the drain out one of the portlights. All dilithium powered. Who needs a freakin inverter when you have dilithium. Come to think of it, I don't think about theoretical hull speed anymore either. Since I have been hanging out at the PSS boatyard in Satun Thailand for over two months I got a great deal on the dilithium sail drive. Dilithium is an extremely hard crystalline mineral that occurs naturally on some planets. When placed in a high-frequency electromagnetic field, magnetic eddies are induced in its structure which keep charged particles away from the crystal lattice. There is the tricky part, I tried to do it but in the end I had to get expert help. When I attempted to align the crystal lattice with the Walter V drive I was off by .000004 mm over a 2.2 meter run. The result was thru hull in a place I did not want a thru hull. That will be the last time I try to eyeball this thing without my visor in place. Anyway I digress, the lattice prevents it from reacting with antimatter when so energized, because the antimatter particles never actually touch it. Therefore, it is used to contain and regulate the annihilation reaction of matter and antimatter in a sailboats sail core, which otherwise would explode from the uncontrolled annihilation reaction. Though low-quality artificial crystals can be grown or replicated, they are limited in the power of the reaction they can regulate without fragmenting, and are therefore largely unsuitable for sail drive applications. Due to the need for natural dilithium crystals for ocean crossings, deposits of this material difficult to come by. In other words I don't need solar panels to power my gin palace anymore. Just 35 boat bucks. If it sounds rather expensive you have to remember that you get 4 T Shirts thrown in and it will even turn a benehuntalina into a proper ocean going boat.


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## outbound

Jerry-?where do I get some?
AP functions just fine withou speedo. Just can't steer to a wind angle. To steer to a wind angle you need to know speed over ground, speed through the water, course over ground, and heading. This allows calculation of true wind angle. You get get all the parameters from the gps, rudder angle sensor and flux gate compass except for speed through the water.
Btw- was mildly annoyed by the implication some skill sets imparted more macho than others. Believe this is hubris. Firmly believe there is no place for macho or being judgmental on a boat. Believe the engineering mindset is correct. Here is a problem. How do we deal with it. Who on the boat has the best skills for this issue. Can they teach me these skills. Dispassionate, asexual, unemotional goal directed logic. Best sailor I ever knew was a lady librarian from a small New England town. On this forum there are people with different experiences. Not better or worse just different. I'm here to learn from them.


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## Capt Len

Well I was nodding in understanding up until you said 'even turn a benehuntalina into a proper ocean going boat' Brought me to reality and realized that you were pulling my leg. As to steering to a wind angle I just glance at the mast head ,sail set,and wake. Instantaneous calculations written on the seat of my pants says all is as it should be.


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## outbound

Len I love the autopilot. It does 95plus % of the steering. Going from simple paddle wheel to complex ultrasonic speedo was a mistake. Did it originally because thought it more convenient.
Increasing, search for convenience adds complexity and opportunity for failure or difficulty. Another example is software updates. Think it great to keep electronic charts up to date but think some updates are done just to give IT guys/gals opportunity to write code and justify their salaries. Deferred May Raymarine update until got back to the states. System worked fine. Had "ain't broke don't fix it" attitude until passage was over.
Same thinking applies to water makers . Auto flush functions and the like sound great until you are thirsty.

When researching washer/dryers seems Splendide is the dominant device. Main issue for us is how to wash bedding. Got a little wash bag called a Scrubba. It does clothes just fine but sheets are too big. When you look at energy use, water use and multiple loads just to do sheets and pillow cases decided to defer washer/dryer altogether. As clothes wear out replacing them with high tech synthetics. Seem to take up less room, stay cleaner and wash easily.
Washer/dryer may make great sense on a larger boat but think you need the space where you can get one large enough to do a significant load of laundry or bedding.


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## JonEisberg

outbound said:


> Len I love the autopilot. It does 95plus % of the steering. Going from simple paddle wheel to complex ultrasonic speedo was a mistake. Did it originally because thought it more convenient.
> 
> Increasing, search for convenience adds complexity and opportunity for failure or difficulty.


I would say that over my years of running boats, few setups have been more consistently problematic and failure-prone than some of these very complex networked/interfaced instrumentation/electronic arrays... Particularly, wind instruments - even my own stand-alone wind instrument, not connected to anything else, only seems to provide accurate information part of the time... On the other hand, my masthead Windex has never failed me, at least not since the addition of a Bird spike years ago ;-)

To me, this sort of thing is a classic example of the superiority of an 'old school' solution of a windvane to the matter of steering to wind... Granted, a servo-pendulum vane is hardly a 'simple' or affordable device, but on a boat like mine, I think it is still far and away the better way to steer the boat to wind in open water... one of the reasons why, in my opinion, is that the vane's air blade - being much closer to deck and water level - tends to be a more accurate means of gauging the breeze the boat is sailing in... Electronic wind sensors mounted at the masthead are fine when sailing inshore or in flat water, but when sailing downwind or in large quartering seas, the rolling of the boat can introduce some rather wild fluctuations in the apparent wind at the masthead...

Amazing, how many times one of the last things an owner has said to me prior to the start of a delivery, has been along the lines of _"Oh, by the way, the speedo (or wind instrument, whatever) isn't working...I've been meaning to get it fixed, just haven't gotten around to it yet..."_

;-)


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## outbound

Jon agreed and further note the article pointing out best days work with a servo pendulum compared to,first gen AP or hand steering. However, my limited exposure to cruisers suggests increasing dependence on APs. To the point I see a number of boats where the wind vane has been removed with the only evidence of its prior existence lighter gel coat where mounting points have been filled in.
Folks seem to carry an extra ram and do just fine. Rapidly realize how limited B&G or Raymarine support is and hard to get either of the Cay electronics folks to show up so learn from necessity the quirks of their systems.
In the past you have spoken against enclosures. I agree and don't have one. But doing a simple smoke trail test find my hard dodger limits clean air at my stern. Sister ship needs to keep just about nothing mounted to pushpulpit rails to get clean air. Even putting in strong radar poles or poles for communication equipment has some effect. Effect seems worse on wide sterned boats as turbalance develops across the deck when heeled to weather.
Have had 6 different APs over the years and a boat with a Fleming another with a monitor. No question there have been minor improvements in servo pendulums. But there have been massive improvements in APs. 
Still when in two years our plans change from,snow birding to voyaging will probably invest in a wind vane. It probably be only used when the AP breaks.


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## Minnesail

JonEisberg said:


> Amazing, how many times one of the last things an owner has said to me prior to the start of a delivery, has been along the lines of _"Oh, by the way, the speedo (or wind instrument, whatever) isn't working...I've been meaning to get it fixed, just haven't gotten around to it yet..."_


This also seems to be the case with the boats I've chartered. It's seems like it's rare to get one where both the knot and the wind meter work.


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## outbound

Guess been lucky so far with this boat.(knock on wood) Other than ultrasonic speedo (now replaced) everything has worked flawlessly. Basically copied system on sisterships with some minor modifications. Biggest issue has been working things out after updates. Understanding software not hardware except for the speedo has been the rare issue..
Seems manufacturers don't understand cruisers commonly only have access to wifi. Bandwidth is limited. Just completed Navionics update. Took over an hour for download.
Was told some cruiser spends the time reading all the notice to navigators and has an organized list of those pertinent to sailboat cruisers by region. If anyone knows that link PLEASE share. Like to keep the paper charts up to date as well.


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## alanr77

OutB: Airmar CS4500 issues. Wow, a friend and I were discussing that very sensor as recently as last week. In the high fouling area that we live in, we constantly have issues with the paddlewheels getting too congested to work properly. This seemed like a very good solution to the problem. Were there any other factors that could have contributed to its failure or do you feel you got a faulty sensor? The fact that neither Airmar nor Raymarine offered any help is not reassuring.

Mike: I've been looking into AIS as well. At this point, while my mast is down, I'm running the cabling for all my mast mounted hardware ahead of time. It will be impossible to route the cables through the pipe in the mast step after it's up. I'm currently looking into and ready to purchase the BlueTraker system. I decided to invest in AIS after using an app called MarineTraffic.com for a few years. It has proved useful in locating and tracking commercial traffic as Savannah is a port and I've personally had a few close calls. I actually got the three horn blast from a freighter while I was asleep below and my crew didn't recognize the threat. I've never woke up so fast and I think didn't even touch the ground getting to the cockpit. I'm doing the same for a Raymarine dome. What are you considering for radar? I'm trying to decide between the 18" and 24". Definitely going for the HD color; my experience with radar is that I need a lot more practice with it. But being that a singlehand most of the time, it may save my life someday.

ThirdS: I was referencing the one I posted earlier in the thread. Or if you want to get fancy:






I did the measurements on my boat and I can add an access door to the countertop in the galley. The unit would sit in a custom bracket that allows rubber tipped threaded knobs to secure the unit to the brace. The drain would be plumbed into my self-pumping shower sump






Which has all my sinks and other fresh water drains running to.

I have found that in my 1976 boat, there is a lot of wasted space behind the liner and furniture. I cut out access panels to this space. Then glass in longitudinal hull stiffening beams like those outlined in Daniel Spurr's book "Upgrading the Cruising Sailboat" chapter 2 Figure 2-16, ISBN 0-07-060554-8. I then use those beams to attach the brackets used to secure whatever items I'm trying to mount. I also take this opportunity to reinforce the tabbing of the hull liner to the hull. The end result is a watertight compartment that also stiffens the hull of the boat. I'm currently in the process of doing this on my C30 to make a collision compartment/ anchor chain locker I the lower bow. But this procedure can be used anywhere in the boat and has served me well. It's not difficult to do, but it is difficult to make it look nice. So far, I have not had any issues with hard point loading on the outside of the hull. Wherever there is an intersecting bulkhead added, a hard rubber strip is added where the bulkhead touched the outside hull. The tabbing is then done on both sides; as the rubber is bonded to both the hull and the wood of the bulkhead.

Jerry: Do you have any of those T-shirts left over? Mine mistakenly got used as oil change rags and I can't seem to find replacements. I figure a street vender in Thailand likely has them somewhere. But I want a discount. Can you do that for me? I'll trade you some left over Dilithium for them, that is if I can find any though, most of it is sitting in the bilge's of all the Catalina's I've had that immediately fell apart and sunk as soon as I got out of sight of land. In fact, the Bavaria I was on had an alarm; factory installed mind you, that as soon as we reached the 5 mile point, started beeping and whooping. Then the voice of the Allstate guy rumbled through the speakers, he warned that there would be no safe driving check if we continued. So we immediately turned around. Afterwards, after the fear and adrenalin wore off. We decided to move the boat to an inland lake. But not too big of a lake, because don't forget that dilithium gets its power from the interaction on the crystals that make up sand on the beach. As the waves move the crystals, it produces energy. But once you get to far away from that, the dilithium starts to lose its charge. Then you REALLY have problems. Don't ask how I know!

CaptL: "Instantaneous calculations written on the seat of my pants says all is as it should be." That's interesting. A while back I was sailing with a really old guy in a little Whaler Harpoon. I enlisted him to help me understand the finer points of technical sailing. He kept saying that you don't need instruments to be a good sailor. He said the boat will tell you everything you need to know if you just listen. I trained with him for quite a while and it became apparent very quickly that the depth of his knowledge had no bottom. Up until recently, that's how I sailed. Only lately have I begun to explore these high tech instruments and I am undecided on the value. A friend of mine who I really enjoy going sailing with is very dependent on his instruments. I watched him and noticed that he spends more time staring at the instrument cluster than the ocean itself. We laugh at each other because I sail more by feel; it's how I was taught. I'm trying to improve myself by looking at combining the two types of sailing. The jury is still out for me.

OutB: In one of the posts I deleted, I mentioned that Catalina uses Splendide as well. I couldn't find on their website where they were built specifically for Marine use but they do say they are designed for "mobile travel". These are definitely a level above the little units I'm linking from Amazon. Good point on the ability to wash larger items though. The thing that comes to mind though for the application of installing something like this in a small boat is how often do large items like comforters need to be washed? Let's say you use 7 pairs of shorts, 7 T-Shirts and 4 towels a week. The small unit has the capability to handle that amount when broken in half. The large items or extremely dirty items would obviously need a larger machine. But if you are running to the laundromat weekly to do the small loads, including mixing in the bigger loads wouldn't the small machine lessen the trips to the laundromat? The small machine does the weekly work and you would then only require monthly? Trips to the land based laundromat? Obviously this does not apply to a boat with a family of four but would it work for a single guy on his boat?

Jon: I've seen that as well. Why is that? I'm crossing into the dark side and installing the Raymarine I60 Wind System with Masthead E70150 unit. Do the issues reside in the networking interface, the hardware itself or in the connections and wiring? Have you ever come across a system that worked really well over the long term and what made it different from the systems that continually fail?


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## jerryrlitton

Alan, too funny my friend. PM me your address and I will see what I can do about getting you a genuine PSS shirt.


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## outbound

Alan seems from talking with others beyond size is issue that the guts of even the stainless steel ones are subject to failure in " the marine environment". Connections not appropriately soldered and shrink wrapped, wires not tinned. Things like that. Even on big boats where they are in non humid air conditioned totally dry settings ten year service life is unusual from what I've heard.
Jerry I'd wear that t shirt with pride if you have an extra. Still have a mailing address for awhile.
Would mention been told having a good vhf/AIS splitter is key. Systems integrated and showing as overlays on your displays allow much easier navigation especially in high traffic regions. 
Finally if you don't know to turn your head until wind equal in both ears and not depend on windex or feel set from boat and wake or the myriad tells the boat and your body gives you you won't know when the instruments are out of wack and it's time to pay attention...close attention to what's going on.


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## outbound

Quick story. Had my wife's cousin on the boat. She races J boats throughout the world. A rock star. She took the wheel, sat on the low side and stared at the slot turning to me occasionally and politely suggesting trim for me to execute. Fortunately I kept an eye on the depth, chart and traffic.
Had my best friends son on the boat. He flies combat in helicopters for the army. He took the wheel. Got screen hypnosis. Asked a steady stream of questions as he played through the screens. Fortunately, wife stopped doing what she was doing and in effect stood watch while he stared at the screen and I fielded his questions.
They are AIDS to navigation. Good to use and increase safety when used appropriately. Still carry a lead line, knot stick and have compass in the binocs. Old school works and is fun


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## outbound

Alan to answer more specifically. Change underclothes daily and if God forbid it's cold first layer every second/third day and socks daily. Carry enough for two plus weeks. Find in tropics sheets last ~4-5 days between sweat and being friendly with the bride. Wife is fussy about bedding. Carry 4 changes for queen, 3 for double in quarterberth and two for passage berths in saloon.
In carribean so far most marinas have laundry ladies. They will wash and fold your clothes for the same or less money than it costs for you to do it yourself. And they fold much better than me. I still don't know how to fold a fitted elastized sheet properly.
So far scheduling has required being in a marina within every two weeks or so. So while there take care of provisioning, repairs, water, propane and fuel if necessary and laundry. Have not missed not having a machine.
Also at present not cost effective. Even if you did an Amazon machine and installed yourself.


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## Erindipity

Ah, dealing with Mod Cons...

I mentioned a couple of pages back about little wriggling things in my ice...
Time flies like an arrow, but Fruit Flies like a Portable Icemaker.
It started with a Peach that got loose and proceeded to ferment under the Beneteau's Ice Box. The flies got bored of that after a week or so, and discovered the Icemaker. Get sloshed on fermented Peach, and then go skinny-dipping.
They _loved_ the Icemaker. I saw a couple of them doing the backstroke in the reservoir, among many drowned relatives.
A little wire sticks down just in front of the Water Jet, right at the very top of the Rotating Cooling Water Reservoir; the wire is used to determine "Water Low", (No water flow, no conductivity: out of water.), and one Little Darling was using it to practice Pole Dancing. (Great legs!)

Now just to explain how Modern this Mod Con is: there is a schematic sticker on the shell enclosure. For Compleat Idiots like me who are unfamiliar with this new Tech. I was puzzled by the "Ice Full" Detector, until I figured out that it was an Infrared Sensor. Just the Sensor- no IR LED on the other side, as was seen in VCRs decades back to detect end-of-tape. A pile of Ice tends to absorb the hell out of ambient IR.
The Compressor and Fan work off of 120VAC. There is a low voltage Picoprocessor of some kind to handle all other functions, with a (Marginal) Relay for the Compressor, but the Fan has a simple 120VAC Thermal Switch mounted on the Refrigerant Cooling Coils. The Ice "Cube", (More like a bloody thick Ice Thimble.), size is determined by a simple Timer- small cubes get 6 minutes of cooling; large cubes get 9. (There are versions that have three sizes- thirty bucks more for a simple timing change and another switch.) ~$100 can buy a lot of New Tech.

There was a simple Mass Burial At Sea. I then scrubbed every water bearing surface with Bleach, including running a Q-Tip end through the Pump passages and tubing.
Overly cautious perhaps, but who knows who that Little Darling had been with, before taking up Pole Dancing.

¬Erindipity


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## outbound

Make ice in trays. Need room trays come out. Leave galleon of water in frig. Leave gin/vodka in freezer before company comes over.
Splash of St. Germaine
Dollop of Hendricks
Grapefruit soda
Two ice cubes
Let's me hang on regardless of what Jimmy says.

As an aside:
Taught to spray dock lines with Bop or other bug killer anytime it's not just a touch and go. Seems to work. Also unwrap all food in cockpit and wash fruit/veggies with cockpit shower. Never let any paper bags or boxes below. Everything goes into Tupperware. Bugs are a bit h to get rid of. Great story telling skills E. Thanks for the chuckle


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## Rocky Mountain Breeze

Those of you who are upset at fruit flies in you ice should never buy a fountain drink at a Subway. Just a comment from someone who services a lot of commercial ice makers and dispensers, but then again, what you can't see won't hurt you right????


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## Erindipity

Rocky Mountain Breeze said:


> Those of you who are upset at fruit flies in you ice should never buy a fountain drink at a Subway. Just a comment from someone who services a lot of commercial ice makers and dispensers, but then again, what you can't see won't hurt you right????


Ah, Somebody Inside...
I've lately become addicted to "Mango Agua Fresca" at the local Gas Station Fountain.
Non-carbonated, and not too sweet. An excellent mixer with Research Grade Grain Alcohol, (190 Proof.), in the right proportions.

It was actually somewhat difficult to find out where it came from; the Cylinders backwalled were unlabeled, as were the loathsome "Mechado Agua Fresco" cylinders.

There is this Girl...

She is in Gas Station Management. She is the kind of Girl who is in continual denial of her inherent Loveliness, and is thus victim to my stumbling, inquisitive, total Lack Of Charm. She dug into this for me, and she found that the unlabeled cylinders came from "Aguas Frescas Festival", a small outfit, from San Clemente, California. (Note- no endorsement. Just evidence.)
I'm not quite sure why that this must be kept so Secret...
I would buy a Twelvepack cans a week if this was available in the local Supermarkets.

Pretty much everything that we eat has Bugs in it. They even have FDA limits for this- so many Bug limbs per cubic centimeter in Ketchup.
But I prefer to drink my Mango Agua Fresca over Ice, relatively, and Ice Sourced locally... Bug-free.

¬Erindipity


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## outbound

My paternal grandmother made her own vodka. Had crock for potato peelings under the sink. Once or twice a year ran a small still on the stove. Put in pepper or lemon or orange peels. Went into the freezer. I would take the subway to her and discuss existential angst during my teens. She served it in a water glass with NO ICE. After half a glass never missed the ice at all. Wasn't a chance you'd ever find any sort of bug back stroking in that water glass.


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## Erindipity

outbound said:


> My paternal grandmother made her own vodka. Had crock for potato peelings under the sink. Once or twice a year ran a small still on the stove. Put in pepper or lemon or orange peels. Went into the freezer. I would take the subway to her and discuss existential angst during my teens. She served it in a water glass with NO ICE. After half a glass never missed the ice at all. Wasn't a chance you'd ever find any sort of bug back stroking in that water glass.


Ah, Poteen...
Pronounced "Puh'Scheen" with as much of a deliberate slur as possible.
Me Dad used to tell Stories, wild improbable stories, of growing up in Depression Era Ireland. He refined the stories over the years, and thus lent an air of inauthenticity to them.
But with his passing, just as the Internet blossomed, I found out how many of his stories were _true_.
Like the one about the German Bombing of his Monkstown/Salthill Strawberry Patch.
Or the one about an ancestor, a Sir Peter de *****, who was paid out in Irish land to stay the Hell out of England.
Or the one about the Children's Game of Forfeits: "Robin Alive"; which was used to pass Messages along for those planning a little Treason, for four Centuries. (Thomas Jefferson was appalled by "Robin Alive", and actively sought its suppression in the States, which is why none of you lot play it.)
And then there is the story behind Beckett's "Molloy". I may be the only one left alive who knows this story, except possibly the Irish actress Tara MacGowran, whom I have never met nor corresponded with.

I don't have his skill with words, but here is my version of his version of Poteen:
***************

Poteen was illegal in Ireland during the early part of the last century, and was thus as common as sin, beyond the Pale.
A watered Crock was used, and any old bits of Potato, cooked or not, made its way in, along with the odd Turnip, and a snip of just risen Bread dough.
The Crock wasn't kept under the sink, but in the Warming Cupboard.
The Warming Cupboard... we must digress on the subject of the Irish Stove. (Not Hob; that's British and recently pretentious.)
The Classic Irish Cottage had yard-thick stone walls, two rooms, and one massive stone Stove.
The front part of the Stove faced the Kitchen, where people lived, and it burned anything, usually Peat, but also Coal, wood and the odd Turnip, and recently, Natural Gas. The Iron stovetop may have a couple of cutouts for Kettles and such, but the entire surface was used for cooking; if lazy, scrape a spot and fry an Egg.
Beneath was an Iron Door to the Oven, which is not what one might think. For one thing, that was where the Fire was. Red Irish faces and hands weren't due solely to Poteen. 
Holes were driven in the stone for grills and hooks, and that was where the great Irish Mod Con developed- The Coil. We'll get to that.

The back end of the Stove faced the Sleeping quarters. Here, Family, Guests, Hired Hands, Pets, and valuable Farm Animals spent the Night. This accounts in part for the large number of Irish children, and the old saying: "Kerry, where Men are Men, and Sheep are nervous."
There was usually a small Fireplace inset as well, but it was mainly for Show; without the fireplace, there would be no Mantle, and without the Mantle, there would be no place for the photographs of those that Emigrated.

In one or both Rooms were Warming Cupboards, immediately next to the Stove, where Clothes dried, Bread rose, Bacon aged, and Poteen fermented.

Coils.
More than Electrification, which too often could light up just _what_ was actually happening in the Sleeping quarters, the Rural Irish really took to Pressurized Water, from Pipes, instead of from Cisterns or Wells, often located far too near a particular Outbuilding. (During the Great Hunger, a child was as likely to die from Dysentery or Typhus, as from outright starvation.)
Somebody clever early on discovered that the massive Stove oven could heat pressurized water in coiled or tangled Copper Tubing, so that everybody could have a Saturday Night washup, and thus greatly reducing the Irish Sunday Mass Pong.
Thinwall Copper tubing doesn't last very long in this kind of service, so regular replacements were expected. A little _too_ regular, as it turned out.
Somebody _very_ clever figured out that this cheap, readily available, unquestionable, and untraceable, resource could be put to better use.

Distilled Poteen. Much stronger than what could be downed from the Crock, but not without a few problems.
One was fractionated Hydrocarbons. Distillation could turn a strong hangover onto a stronger mortality. This is pretty much Folklore, but it was believed that topping off a bottle with a pinch of Pepper before sealing would trap anything bad in the Pepper, which should never be afterwards consumed. (The Irish aren't the only ones so daft- the Scandinavians added Cardamom to their Akavit for very much the same reason.)

****************
On my last trip to Ireland to visit Mom in her 250 year old Cottage, we did some Mod Cons. All the lightbulbs were replaced by the still expensive CFLs. (Her idea; alone now, she was afraid that she would fall while replacing a bulb, and remain undiscovered for a day or two.
...I am just as old now as she was then...)
The Local Electrician, (Hah!), had installed an Electric Heater on the wall for the newish Shower. It didn't work, Rural Irish water pressure being what it historically was. I put in a small pump electrically paralleled to the Heater, and fairly warm showers ensued.
Dad's ideas about Aluminium Foil Fusing went right out; I put in a new Electrical Panel with Breakers.
The telephone was on the _Porch_, and had been so for decades. I rewired it; a Phone in the Kitchen, and another in her Bedroom. I had brought along a Modem and a newish Apple Powerbook, but she wasn't interested.
Her last couple of years of employment had been as a Wang System Administrator for a very large Law Firm.

Tucked in a roll of expired socks on my return to the States was an Imperial Pint bottle of peppered Poteen, corked and sealed with green sealing wax. The paper label has a few faded autographs.
It's now nearly 100 years old.
Final Maternal advice: "Whatever you do, don't _drink_ it."

¬Erindipity


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## jerryrlitton

Wonderful story. This and the like is what keeps people alive forever.


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## outbound

Interesting digression. Fascinating that there is such convergence in cultures.
My grandmother's family ran an inn. Sometimes the Prussians over ran the district, sometimes the Cossacks, sometimes Poles, or the Austrians. But they let the inn alone. Good food and drink was a pleasure for all. Then the Russians came through and burnt it to the ground. Her family was killed except her and her little brother. She walked through Europe with him ending in Calais. Smuggled to Britain then NYC. She made her vodka in the Bronx. 
Pot placed on stove. Coiled copper cooled in sink with drain partially openned and cold water running. Product stored in Bell jars unlabeled in the freezer. Better than anything Grey Goose makes to my palate and memory.


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## alanr77

Ah marine grade electronics....I've been through two battery chargers that I bought at AutoZone about 9 years ago. One I use as a backup on the big boat,the other gets used to top off the battery in the runabout or for batteries used with trolling motors. Both were designed with the automotive industry in mind. Last year,I had to bring one of them home, not because it failed due to corrosion, but because the fan got clogged up with sanding dust apparently. It still charges but you have to make sure you provide cooling air. I may at some point replace the cooling fan with another. They are common at any electronics parts stores. But I'm in no rush. I paid $79 for it in about 2006 or so. I feel that I got my monies worth from it. I think this comes back to what kind of service life you expect out of a piece of equipment. I'm playing devils advocate here but when we are talking about equipment designed for the RV market, 12 volt toys and accessories, given the low cost, wouldn't 2-5 years be acceptable? Especially considering the ease of replacement these days.


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## outbound

Sure wish some of the experienced world cruisers would chime in. Even in my limited experience find autozone or the equivalent may be hard if not impossible to find in the common places folks like to cruise. RV stores are non existent on most islands. Even if you find out about it it may be difficult to get to. Even if you get to it it may not have what you're looking for. Even if you call first it may be difficult to get the store clerk to look for it and confirm its presence. If your boat and stuff is 120/60 and the place you're at is European compatible you're going to need to convert stuff or source of juice unless you run everything through your inverter. We run everything through the inverter. Just easier and then you can use the plugs scattered throughout the boat. Inverter seems close to square wave so haven't had an issue yet.
In short seems much better to be self contained. Have the stuff and spares you need. Have stuff with the longest service life possible. As Dorothy said we're not in Kansas anymore. .


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## alanr77

Ah.....I see where the disconnect is and has been. "world cruisers ". I was not limiting this thread to that. Honestly, how many people on here cruise the world via sailboat? I don't gamble much but I'd safely guess that the actual number is quite small. I'll go further and say the majority of sailboat owners cruise local and weekend. We can even throw in the Bahamas as it can be safely done in an outboard powered fishing boat. I do see what you are saying. And if you apply that to taking an Autozone battery charger to the South Pacific, then yes, it's likely not a good idea as your primary means of charging your batteries. I think so many threads on here start with "how to cross an ocean" that we forget about the majority of what we do. I'll tie this in to the thread by saying; How many people know of someone who bought a boat based on future use but forgot about what they really do now? Many world cruisers are sitting tied to a dock in a marina within the US, owned by someone who wanted a world cruising boat but will never actually go there. They end up with a boat ill suited to what they are doing now or even will be doing in the near future. I think it is more realistic to option out a boat based on what you are doing with it no? I personally know a few people who made the mistake of buying a "classic but accepted world cruising boat" and within a few years ended up selling them to buy a Catalina or Oday. They are much happier now. Having said that, I think it's prudent to maybe split this thread into two different train of thoughts; Modern convenience for a boat used near coastal and mod cons for a boat crossing oceans. I think it becomes quite clear quickly that the needs will be different. Manufacturers know this as well. Maybe even three different idea's, a liveaboard definitely has a different viewpoint on what's acceptable on their boat. This can be applied to boat size too. I personally feel more comfortable on a smaller boat because I can manage everything easier. Large boats with large sails and large gear can get away from you quickly. I'm willing to put up with the rougher and wetter ride. But who knows? This outlook may change as the years pile on. 

To reiterate, I can safely assume that the point of view you are expressing is from the viewpoint of a world cruiser. And I agree with you when looking at it from that angle. But twist the knob over to local cruiser, or dock liveaboard and look at it from those angles. I am a coastal cruiser. I have built my boat to best serve that purpose. In the future, the purpose will likely change and I will get another tool out of thee toolbox to suit that change. But I think it's important to remember that the thread was not titled "Modern Convenience and Boat Size for Offshore Cruising Boats". It was more diverse than that. Covering all angles and as such, their should not really be the need for convincing. Some things are more appropriate for an offshore cruiser. But those very things could detract from the enjoyment of a weekend cruiser no? 

Thanks for the suggestions regarding boat size. 40-42 does seem to meet all the future requirements we may have. I'm going to try an attend either the Annapolis or Newport show this year and see what the current offerings have. Should be interesting. Though I am afraid to take my wife with me because once she see's the inside of a new 40'er, she will never look at my 30 the same again! I also apologize for the delay in moving forward with this thread. I am a man with To.Many.Hobbies and I am constantly moving back and forth between them. Soon I would like to add in some of the mod cons I have built into my current boat and discuss the supporting systems installed. My friends and I have planned out a way for me to weigh anchor and control the boat from the bow while solo until our brains hurt. It may not be practical but it's worth talking about. My handicap has forced some "outside the box" thinking in regards to some of these challenges. Some might find it interesting. Everything has been designed for ease of expansion so that if I decide to install a nuro space transmitter, it can easily be done. Now, getting parts for that is a different story altogether! AR


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## outbound

You make very valid distinctions. I'm not a world cruiser but aspire to be one. At present just a eastern Caribbean New England snow birder. Think there is a significant population who snow bird on both coasts and live on their boats or spend equal or more time on their boats. Then things like water makers or even washer/dryers are more likely entertained purchases.


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