# AC 34 - What If?



## JulieMor

Anyone watching the AC races today was probably surprised NZ soundly handed Team Oracle two losses in a row. The announcers were surprised. The hushed crowd at the docks seemed shocked. The few articles I've read so far expressed surprise. Everyone seemed to think Oracle was the easy favorite, until the jury handed down the penalties a few days ago, considered by many as being severely harsh and unprecedented.

Team Oracle was forced to enter the America's Cup with a negative two points (-2 race wins) and without their head trimmer. Today's race started NZ 0, USA -2. And today, based on the results, it looked like Oracle never had a chance. They are now down 4 races.

So, what if NZ wins the next 7 races? How would that go down in the annals of the America's Cup, considering the penalties the jury cast down? Then, who really wins?


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## blt2ski

"IF" NZ wins the next 7, they won 9 in a row. Oracle won ZERO!!!!!! at that point in time, it would probably not matter about the penalties, altho some might say a missing person was the issue......then again. 

Oracle shot themselves in the foot! no ifs ands or buts! 52 secs for a loss with these rigs, is a big distance! 

Oracle is the home team, if they did not like how the potential penalties could be given out, they should have litigated some more. I would prefer to go back to the 12m time, ea country had to have a crew of all their own, etc etc.......BUT, I have to admit, these beasts are much more fun to see and watch, Hence why I would not like to see 12m come back. The politeness of the time, could come back. BUT< then from things I am reading, even back int he early days, BS that is going on today, was going on then, so things have not changed! Spoiled rich boyz with there toyz! and no manners!

Marty


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## smackdaddy

I'm over Oracle. NZ deserves it. I hope they keep the ACWS. Apart from that, they just need to do a good housecleaning.

At least we have the VOR.


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## Omatako

There are a few of these threads running so forgive me if I repeat.

As far as I understand it, OTUSA decided to campaign their slower boat because it was more stable. Now they may have done that because their "rookie" mainsail trimmer was not skilled enough to guarantee that he wouldn't serve up a nosedive.

So where is the mainsail trimmer that sailed on the Ben Ainslee boat? If their current mainsail trimmer is not him then where is he? If it is him, why is he struggling to get things right? He didn't appear to have a problem keeping up during their testing/training.

Have they got their slower boat? It would seem so. But where is the logic? If you are being beaten on speed what is the point of being stable? If you're up there with speed and competing, then the stability is an issue but if it can be controlled then it has to be the first choice. Seems to me that was OTUSA's first error and as it happens it is critical.

So IMHO if they chose their slower boat then one should not wonder that they're being beaten. And ETNZ should not have to be embarrassed about beating them. As Julie says, everyone was surprised that ETNZ was quicker - seems even OTUSA never considered that a possibility - if they did they would never had opted for the slower boat.

There were also clear signs that OTUSA were not sailing well. Example: when rounding the top mark ETNZ were already foiling at 40 kn+ as they rounded. If you can watch that part of the race again, see how OTUSA had their leeward hull firmly buried on the water until they were effectively around the mark. Only then did they get up on the foil. That alone would cost them 100yds.

And their starting was not up to Barker's standard. Especially on the second start, Spithill had every opportunity to get to weather of Barker and give him dirty air to start in - he deliberately chose not to. WTH?? Then he compromised his boat speed to try and get a penalty on ETNZ and payed the price.

I could go on but then this post will get long enough not to be read. Suffice it to say that ETNZ may well go to 9-zip. It's not their fault.


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## kentobin

I haven't been following the race very closely but the local SF Bay area papers seem to think that the Oracle Team got off very easily.

I'm sure Ellison and his public relations team(s) would like to make any judgment against them appear draconian.


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## ScottUK

> Everyone seemed to think Oracle was the easy favorite


That isn't true


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## ScottUK

> Then he compromised his boat speed to try and get a penalty on ETNZ and payed the price.


It was a penalty. The boats clearly touched.



> Example: when rounding the top mark ETNZ were already foiling at 40 kn+ as they rounded. If you can watch that part of the race again, see how OTUSA had their leeward hull firmly buried on the water until they were effectively around the mark. Only then did they get up on the foil. That alone would cost them 100yds.


Not sure what part of the race you are referring to Andre. If it was the first mark after the start of the first race they got hit with bad air so the hull touching the water was the result. That is why the start is so important but I am sure I am not telling you anything you don't already know. I look forward to Oracle to having a good start in one of these races. That said - Go ETNZ!


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## JonEisberg

JulieMor said:


> Anyone watching the AC races today was probably surprised NZ soundly handed Team Oracle two losses in a row. The announcers were surprised. The hushed crowd at the docks seemed shocked. The few articles I've read so far expressed surprise. *Everyone seemed to think Oracle was the easy favorite*, until the jury handed down the penalties a few days ago, considered by many as being severely harsh and unprecedented.


"Anyone", and "everyone seemed to think ORACLE was the easy favorite"? Really?

You obviously haven't been following the AC threads at Sailing Anarchy, for one... Lots of pretty informed opinion over there, much of it has long been postulating that ETNZ was the team to beat...

Why would anyone be totally "surprised" by their performance today? ETNZ was the first team to launch their AC 72, and the first ones to be able to fly both hulls on their foils... Not to mention, they've yet to do anything like this to one of their boats...


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## JulieMor

If Oracle chose their slower, more stable boat because of the loss of their trimmer (they also lost grinder Matt Mitchell for four races), and choosing the slower boat is why they were so soundly beaten upwind, couldn't one say the penalties handed down to Oracle made it impossible for Oracle to win the Cup? From there couldn't one conclude the jury wanted Ellison out for AC 35?

Apparently, the actions of three members of a 130 member team were enough for the jury to feel justified in handing down the penalties they did. Is it possible Team Oracle wants to send a message to the jury, something like: they rigged the outcome of the America's Cup with the severe penalties? If the Kiwis dominate the two races today...


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## ScottUK

So you are saying Oracle is conspiring to throw the AC?


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## JulieMor

ScottUK said:


> So you are saying Oracle is conspiring to throw the AC?


I'd first look at the Jury...

Paragraph 96 of the decision:
_96. The Jury has no intention to impose a penalty that will determine the outcome of the Match, which should best be determined on the water and not in the Jury room. But for these mitigating factors the penalty would have been heavier._

Paragraph 99 of the decision:
_99. Pursuant to Protocol Article 15.4(d)(iv), OTUSA shall be penalised one point for each of the first two races of the Match in which they would otherwise score a point._

In all of sports have you ever heard of a team starting a championship event with their score in the negative column? Imagine a Super Bowl with one team starting out -14 points, or a World Series with one team needing to win two more games than the other to take the Series or the same kind of thing in basketball, soccer, etc. The fans would be screaming bloody murder.

But therein lies the difference. Most sailing fans don't care about this decision, or if they do, they aren't getting any press. Some fans don't even know that the infraction occurred during the 2012 ACWS, when the AC45s were racing. (Even the Jury admitted the AC45s are not the same as the AC72s and, therefore, what advantage could have been gained?) It really seems like the only people screaming bloody murder about the ruling is Team Oracle, and maybe a handful of devoted fans.


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## ScottUK

I was not referring to the decision (I think it was too harsh) but to your inference.


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## JulieMor

Scott, it's just pure speculation, as I'm sure you know. And really, if Oracle wanted to send the message to the Jury that they did in fact decide the outcome of the Match, Oracle would make sure they got the 9 wins (exclusive of the two penalty points) before NZ secured their 9 wins.

Who knows? Maybe they still will.

But if one imagines starting off in a negative points/wins situation, isn't it possible something like that could take the momentum/desire/drive out of the penalized team? And then, doesn't that mean the penalty did actually determine the outcome of the Match?


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## ScottUK

Conversely the penalty could inspire Oracle so you can say it had a bearing on the outcome.


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## Minnewaska

JulieMor said:


> ........Paragraph 96 of the decision:
> _96. The Jury has no intention to impose a penalty that will determine the outcome of the Match, which should best be determined on the water and not in the Jury room. *But for these mitigating factors the penalty would have been heavier.*_


I am all the more convinced that they would have banned Ellison and Oracle altogether, if not for essentially cancelling the race and leaving SanFran and NBC hanging by doing so.


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## blt2ski

Minne,

I think you are correct. The full banning in this sport is not unfounded. Has been done before. no different than some of the bannings of players for full seasons, college teams from playoffs and bowl games for 2-4 yrs, loss of scholarships etc. 

More may come out later from the international side of things, Maybe even US Sailing........ after this is over. Even if Oracle wins, I can see and should see harsher penalties.

Marty


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## JulieMor

After reading the decision I really don't understand how they could penalize the entire team. The Jury said several times they could find no evidence that anyone other than the named team members knew about the infraction. If the Jury imposed the penalties they did just to ensure Ellison was out of the game for the next Cup, they are a bunch of hypocrites. 

In the decision they said the integrity and good of the sport comes before anything else, then said they don't want to decide the outcome and then penalize Oracle by putting them two races in the hole. It's a joke and it wouldn't surprise me if they did more harm than good to the sport of sailing by doing this. 

Imagine you're a newbie to baseball and you decide to sit down and watch the World Series. Before the first pitch is thrown, you see one team has -2 wins. "Oh, they cheated," is the response you get when you ask why. What will your opinion of baseball be when you hear that?

I get taking away their wins in the ACWS. I get banning the participants in the infraction from the Match. But there was absolutely no evidence shown in the decision that any of the rest of the team had any knowledge of the infraction until after the fact. I think the Jury made this worse than it was and in doing so gave sailing a black eye.

If the powers-that-be don't like where Ellison has taken the AC, they should have created rules to prevent it.


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## Minnewaska

Julie,

I'm just not buying that no one else knew. Why would lower ranking crew members mess with balance and not want the helmsman or skipper to know? I think it's just cover for why they didn't ban the entire team, which would therefore eliminate the Cup race entirely and many innocent bystanders (San Fransisco, NBC, vendors, etc) would have suffered.

If you are reading hipocracy and question integrity, you are reading it correctly. IMO.


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## blt2ski

If one looks at other sports, they see that teams, individuals get banned, lose past races, games etc be them temporary or or permanent.... you shrug your shoulders and move on. Professional hockey has penalized players sit in a penalty box for a period of time. That persons team is now down a player! 

To put it bluntly, what happened as far as penalties go, are WELL founded through out sports! BUT as noted, many millions if not billions of dollars would have been thrown away if oracle had been given a complete ban for what happened. Hopefully ISAF does this to ALL who knew, participated etc over the next few months.

Marty


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## JulieMor

Minnewaska said:


> Julie,
> 
> I'm just not buying that no one else knew. Why would lower ranking crew members mess with balance and not want the helmsman or skipper to know? I think it's just cover for why they didn't ban the entire team, which would therefore eliminate the Cup race entirely and many innocent bystanders (San Fransisco, NBC, vendors, etc) would have suffered.


I agree, odds are there were higher-ups who knew and the named team members were just thrown out as an attempt to sacrifice a few so the team could carry on. But the problem I have is that the Jury decision offered no evidence anyone else was involved. They should therefore rule only on the evidence at hand. Suspicions have no place in making their decision.

If the Jury felt strongly enough that there were higher-ups who knew, they should have said so. (They kept mentioning in the decision no one seemed to know who removed the weights, and it appeared that really bothered them.) And if they felt that for the good of the sport the Cup Match needs to carry on, they could have said that too and, IMHO, that would be a pretty stand up thing to do. Don't punish the innocents.

But I really have a tough time believing Ellison had prior knowledge about the infraction. I can't believe anyone would risk hundreds of millions of dollars AND their reputation just to win some World Series matches. And then I have to ask myself just how far down the ladder does one have to be where the risk-reward balance out enough to justify the action?


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## Minnewaska

JulieMor said:


> I agree, odds are there were higher-ups who knew and the named team members were just thrown out as an attempt to sacrifice a few so the team could carry on. But the problem I have is that the Jury decision offered no evidence anyone else was involved. They should therefore rule only on the evidence at hand. Suspicions have no place in making their decision.


I'm an admitted cynic. I don't think they wanted more evidence that would have made it harder to avoid a full ban. I doubt they vehemently completed a real investigation or they would know how the weights were removed. I mean seriously, who would put weights in for the purpose of cheating and not want the helmsman to know if they were there or not? Makes no sense.



> ......if they felt that for the good of the sport the Cup Match needs to carry on, they could have said that too and, IMHO, that would be a pretty stand up thing to do. Don't punish the innocents.


Can you imagine the publicity that they are allowing a full on cheater to compete anyway, because its good for the sport? Just because it may be honest, wouldn't make it work for them. I also don't think anyone innocent has been punished.



> But I really have a tough time believing Ellison had prior knowledge about the infraction. I can't believe anyone would risk hundreds of millions of dollars AND their reputation just to win some World Series matches.


How many billionaires do you know? I'm not sure I know any, but know a few contenders. It takes a real narcissism to get there. Don't underestimate their need for self gratification, winning and admiration. Millions, by the way, to Ellison is like you and I paying our slip fees.


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## kentobin

Minnewaska,

After reading your post it made me wonder how long this behavior has been going on and not just at the America's cup. I don't think these guys just got up one morning and out of the blue decided to rig the game. 

One usually learns bad behavior from their peers.

You're a cynic and I'm jaded. 

Ken


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## Omatako

I actually can't imagine a person like Ellison compromising his integrity for something this insubstantial. This is a hobby to him. Who puts their very considerable professional integrity on the line for a hobby? Only a stupid person. And Ellison is not one of those. So based on that I reckon he didn't know.

I also don't believe some shore-side personnel or sailing crew would take it upon themselves to illegally modify a boat. What have they to gain? Especially if their superiors don't know.

So who gets to win or lose?

Only the direct team management. If they keep losing races they don't only lose races, they lose their jobs. If they keep winning, they keep winning at a lot more than just sailing. These guys don't get paid peanuts. I would take one of their jobs in a heartbeat.

And it is (at least it is to me) interesting that none of the guilty parties were actually fired or if they were it wasn't made public. Is that perhaps because they can't be? For good reason? If they compromised the professional integrity of the 5th richest man in the world and weren't fired, there's more to this than we can see.


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## Omatako

ScottUK said:


> Not sure what part of the race you are referring to Andre. If it was the first mark after the start of the first race they got hit with bad air so the hull touching the water was the result.


No, I'm speaking of the top mark, where ETNZ did their spectacular nosedive and where the bear-away is so spooky. Oracle kept their boat real quiet around the bear-away mark to the point were their leeward hull was firmly in the water all the way round the mark. By contrast ETNZ were foiling and boat speed climbing into the thirties by the time they got to the mark. There is a 100yd advantage right there. In races 3 and 4 Oracle did that better and look at the results.



ScottUK said:


> That said - Go ETNZ!


Couldn't say it better. And recent news in NZ (last night) is that if ETNZ wins, the government will seriously consider another contribution of $40m - if they lose, move on. So it would seem they have one shot - "Go hard or go home".


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## ScottUK

> And recent news in NZ (last night) is that if ETNZ wins, the government will seriously consider another contribution of $40m


Yeah I saw that headline in the Herald too. Seems to be a bit harsh given that a lot of the racers across the boats are NZers.


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## Minnewaska

Omatako said:


> I actually can't imagine a person like Ellison compromising his integrity for something this insubstantial. This is a hobby to him. Who puts their very considerable professional integrity on the line for a hobby?.......


Google the dozens of interviews with Ellison over the years, on all matters, and tell me he gives a hoot what anyone thinks about him. He is very clear in both business and sailing, its all about winning. Nearly a quote.


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## Minnewaska

Omatako said:


> ......And recent news in NZ (last night) is that if ETNZ wins, the government will seriously consider another contribution of $40m.......


While I'm still pulling for ETNZ, in hopes Ellison will pack it in, I'm not really good with government sponsored teams going forward either. If China, Russia, US or the EU decide they want to buy a team for national pride, its obviously not too hard to buy the talent. That's a game NZ can't win, so should be careful.


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## ScottUK

> That's a game NZ can't win


Don't know about that since a lot of the talent that has been 'purchased' comes from NZ.


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## Minnewaska

ScottUK said:


> Don't know about that since a lot of the talent that has been 'purchased' comes from NZ.


I think you've missed my point. The countries I listed have substantially more purchasing power than NZ and would hire away the rest of their talent, as well as the rest of the world's top sailors. If NZ provokes national sponsorship, they will lose their best talent.


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## ScottUK

Russell Coutts being the exception, there is a lot of national pride in the land of Kiwis concerning sailing.


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## Minnewaska

ScottUK said:


> Russell Coutts being the exception, there is a lot of national pride in the land of Kiwis concerning sailing.


That's great, but half the current US Team are from NZ, not just Coutts, and Ellison's billions are a blip compared to the Treasury.


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## ScottUK

There are only so many spots on offer with ETNZ.


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## JulieMor

I realize ego can blind someone and usually the richer you are, the bigger your ego. But I still can't believe Ellison had prior knowledge of the infraction. That super ego also compels these people to maintain their super reputation.

From what I've read, as the AC45 required repair, the Measurement Committee increased the parameters to allow for the additional weight the repairs added. But they outlined very specific areas where additional weight can be added. Along the line, one Oracle AC45 and one BAR AC45 were found to have weights added outside those specific areas.

It started when the BAR boat was being measured and they found the infraction. Oracle then did their own inspection and found their two boats were also outside the rules and self-reported. The committee later found one of the Oracle boats passed, the other didn't.

The BAR boat is owned by Oracle and on loan to BAR. What would Team Oracle gain through BAR successes? Would Ellison be boasting, _"Oh, hey! Ben Ainslie won but it was with my boat!"_? I'm not seeing the advantage. That would be kind of petty to me. Would Team Oracle risk their reputation to set up Ben Ainslie for the fall? I kinda doubt it.

Now if whoever loaned the boat to BAR knew about the illegal weights, wouldn't they have removed them before they gave the boat to BAR? For one, they would lose control of access to the boat in the event they wanted to remove the weights. And if in fact the illegal weights improved performance, why would you want to give that to a competitor?

I have no idea how the mind(s) of the perpetrators were working when the weights were added. Logic isn't always logical. But I don't think the knowledge of the infraction went very high up on the ladder, considering the implications... Unless the top brass felt invincible. And that's always a possibility.


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## capecodda

Hard to have any sympathy for Larry, the biggest ego in the valley. Culture starts at the top. If someone who works for me cheated, then I cheated. No hiding behind the troops. If the team wins, great leaders give their people the credit, and take little for themselves, and all successful people aren't great leaders.

That said, watching those big cat's fly around SF bay is kinda fun!


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## Minnewaska

JulieMor said:


> ....That super ego also compels these people to maintain their super reputation.......


What super reputation? He is known as an SOB that must win at whatever he does. There was an article written about his professional career that describes him as somewhere between a bad boy and insane.

I don't need to pound on this. None of us know what we don't know. I just don't think he is good for the sport, for a variety of reasons. He sets many bad examples. You can be a fierce competitor and still have a drink with your opponent when the game is over.


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## JulieMor

I'm not trying to argue in defense of the guy. I'm just trying to wrap my head around why anyone, Ellison, Coutts, de Ridder, et al, who cares at all about their reputation in the sailing world would knowingly do something so blatantly stupid. 

Just the idea of rigging a boat outside the rules and then lending it to someone else boggles my mind. It's not just shooting yourself in the foot, it's shooting yourself in the head! And then to do that in the ACWS and put risking being banned from participating in the Cup? What's to be gained? Why would winning the ACWS be more important than winning the Cup? It makes no sense to me.


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## Minnewaska

JulieMor said:


> ....Why would winning the ACWS be more important than winning the Cup? It makes no sense to me.


Here's a hypothesis. I'm not saying its true. We don't know the truth. That much is in evidence, with so many unanswered questions. Perhaps they were testing techniques that would carry over. Who won the WS didn't matter at all. Oracle is still the AC defender. Nothing like insuring those that may get caught are separated from the mofia boss.


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## Omatako

Minnewaska said:


> That's great, but half the current US Team are from NZ, not just Coutts, and Ellison's billions are a blip compared to the Treasury.


NZ has been the mother-lode for international competitive sailing personnel and not only crew (designers, Management, etc) for many years. Most of the successful racing teams today are richly stocked with NZ sailing talent. In addition much of the component development comes from NZ. Oracle's AC72 rig was designed and built in NZ. Luna Rossa's whole AC72 was built in Auckland from plans produced by ETNZ . The America's Cup is more alive in NZ than it is in the USA.

The other countries that you mention are not seriously into sailing and probably won't sponsor a national team. The US won't, heck they're too busy funding wars. If it weren't for Ellison, the USA probably wouldn't be in the Cup now. I wonder if Obama or Kerry even know it's on. It's not about having the money - it's about wanting to spend it on sailing.

The fact that NZ government is prepared to put considerable amounts of tax payer's money on the line speaks volumes for the sailing psyche in this country. If you attend a boat show in Auckland you're almost certain to run into the Prime Minister wandering around, taking in the products, talking to vendors.



Minnewaska said:


> If NZ provokes national sponsorship, they will lose their best talent.


ETNZ has received government sponsorship for decades, certainly since I have been living in NZ they have. The sailing talent that were in this just for the money have already all gone. So far in the AC34, there seems to be enough talent remaining in NZ.


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## Minnewaska

Since taking a shot at the US funding wars needed to be part of your argument, its lost credibility in my eyes. 

Ellison, as defender, has taken the cost to this new level. I just realized, I'm not really rooting for ETNZ to win, I'm just rooting for Ellison to lose. I look forward to taking it back in AC35, hopefully without Ellison and without the need to be funded by uber-billionaires and governments.


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## ScottUK

> Since taking a shot at the US funding wars needed to be part of your argument, its lost credibility in my eyes


It was not part of the argument. It was pointing out the idiotic, hypocritical and craven political machinations in the US. And I point out NZ has been a staunch supporter of these follies.


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## Minnewaska

Back off, this isn't the place for it and you point out it has no relevance to the topic. Which was my point.


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## JulieMor

Minnewaska said:


> Perhaps they were testing techniques that would carry over.


After watching that pathetic "foiling tack" I'd say they need to do a lot more testing before they are ready to defend the Cup. I was expecting to see a close match. But the Kiwis just seem to own the 3rd leg of the race. That leg is probably responsible for 90% of the overall time margin they have won by.

There was some speculation yesterday that the Oracle boat was simply harder to sail. I can't help but wonder if the loss of de Ridder has had something to do with it. Whatever, unless Oracle pulls out a miraculous recovery, the Cup is headed Down Under. But I'm okay with that. From what I've seen, the Kiwis will appreciate the win much more than the Americans would. Still, I'd like to see a close competition.


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## Minnewaska

They certainly gave up time and the lead by poorly executing the foiling tack itself, however, the tactical choice to cross the course is what really killed them. They may have survived being slower through the water, if they hadn't sailed a course that was both longer than arguably more exposed to head current when it mattered most.

I think the boat is just a mess right now, in the scheme of competition at this level. Very possibly due to the loss of experienced crew, but they brought that on themselves.


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## JonEisberg

Minnewaska said:


> They certainly gave up time and the lead by poorly executing the foiling tack itself, *however, the tactical choice to cross the course is what really killed them.* They may have survived being slower through the water, if they hadn't sailed a course that was both longer than arguably more exposed to head current when it mattered most.
> 
> I think the boat is just a mess right now, in the scheme of competition at this level. Very possibly due to the loss of experienced crew, but they brought that on themselves.


Exactly... Poor Kostecki, I hope they had him on suicide watch overnight 

Brad Butterworth definitely wins the Cheap Shot Sweepstakes, however, with his comment after the race on NBC about the decision made at the bottom mark, that "the inmates are now running the asylum"... Very disappointing, that's the sort of thing you'd expect to see posted on SAILING ANARCHY, not heard from a fellow sailor of such high caliber, at that level of the sport... Perhaps it was intended as a joke, but it sure didn't come off that way...


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## ScottUK

> Back off, this isn't the place for it


Well Minne you brought up the government funding so I guess questioning one governments decisions doesn't merit anothers considerations. 'Backing off' now.


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## JulieMor

That was a really weird comment by Butterworth.  He almost seemed to be swallowing hard as he said it, like the words were trying to leave his mouth before his brain could stop them.


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## Minnewaska

ScottUK said:


> Well Minne you brought up the government funding so I guess questioning one governments decisions doesn't merit anothers considerations. 'Backing off' now.


Happy to discuss what I brought up, just not the craven political war soapbox that have absolutely nothing to do with it.

I brought up government funding of a private sailing team being a bad idea. Specifically, if it became a matter of national pride to win the AC, government treasuries make Ellisons billions look paltry. Seeing what his influence was would only be magnified. I'm glad it hasn't taken hold, but it could. It has in some Olympic sports and ruined the spirit entirely, IMO.


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## ScottUK

Government funding is about choices for allocation of resources hence the topic digression. Your last post appears to lament Larry's inability to compete financially with governments. Got to say I got my hanky out for him. Don't think the NZ government has a big enough budget to scare Larry. 

As you can surmise I would prefer it the other way i.e. without fat cats footing the bill. I know this tradition goes back to inception but if this is the main event in sailing so I would prefer a more egalitarian approach that is inherent by government funding.


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## Omatako

Minnewaska said:


> Since taking a shot at the US funding wars needed to be part of your argument, its lost credibility in my eyes.
> 
> Ellison, as defender, has taken the cost to this new level. I just realized, I'm not really rooting for ETNZ to win, I'm just rooting for Ellison to lose. I look forward to taking it back in AC35, hopefully without Ellison and without the need to be funded by uber-billionaires and governments.


Yes, that was silly of of me, I apologise, The US doesn't fund wars. What was I thinking.


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## Minnewaska

ScottUK said:


> ....Your last post appears to lament Larry's inability to compete financially with governments. Got to say I got my hanky out for him. Don't think the NZ government has a big enough budget to scare Larry.


Then it came across wrong. I'm suggesting, if you drag the world's governments into AC race funding, the pockets get even deeper than Ellison's. Its unhealthy. If Ellison's wealth could create a stage that many could not compete on, imagine what would happen if the G20 resources were available? A list, btw, that NZ is not on, but their buddies in Australia are.



> As you can surmise I would prefer it the other way i.e. without fat cats footing the bill. I know this tradition goes back to inception but if this is the main event in sailing so I would prefer a more egalitarian approach that is inherent by government funding.


Perhaps we disagree, because you believe that government funding would be egalitarian. Governments are involved in funding Olympic sports and that has been far from a fair and equal opportunity between them.


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## Minnewaska

Omatako said:


> Yes, that was silly of of me, I apologise, The US doesn't fund wars. What was I thinking.


Subterfuge again? Do you have a point you would like to make about funding the AC, racing or sailing?


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## ScottUK

> Its unhealthy. If Ellison's wealth could create a stage that many could not compete on, imagine what would happen if the G20 resources were available?


Think I would prefer some G20 funding of sailing then their main concern of advocating for corporate oligarchs.



> Governments are involved in funding Olympic sports and that has been far from a fair and equal opportunity between them.


It isn't perfect, I'll give you that, but think it does bring a more level playing field. Could put a universal cap on government funding. But sure some freedom loving freedom lovers would take offense because money equals free speech.

Lastly I would like to say as you wrote in a previous post about this 'not being a place for it'. I don't think this is the place to issue imperatives to fellow posters like 'back off'. I have only commented on the points that have been brought up and have not made it personal.


----------



## JulieMor

As to government funding - all you have to do is set a limit, like a salary cap. Then it could truly become an international event and not a corporate event. But are there enough Kiwis and Aussies to crew all the boats?


----------



## ScottUK

> But are there enough Kiwis and Aussies to crew all the boats?


Good point Juli, that would be a worry. Know a guy who legendary off the start however he is 87 so might be a tad slow on switching helms. Would imagine most of the Kiwis racing would know who I'm referring to.


----------



## JulieMor

Right now, 17 races are scheduled. The first to win 9 races wins the Cup. But Oracle began the Match with -2 points. So it would take them 11 races to get to 9.

What if the score got to ETNZ 8, OTUSA 7? They would have raced all 17 races. Is there a provision in the rules that allows them to tack on more races?


----------



## manatee

JulieMor said:


> Right now, 17 races are scheduled. The first to win 9 races wins the Cup. But Oracle began the Match with -2 points. So it would take them 11 races to get to 9.
> 
> What if the score got to ETNZ 8, OTUSA 7? They would have raced all 17 races. Is there a provision in the rules that allows them to tack on more races?


Is the *official* winning requirement "winning 9 races" or is it "winning the most of the 17 races"?


----------



## sailwatcher

Good question on Julie's part, but AFAIK, manatee is right. First team to the majority of 17.

I really like this format of this many races, but the racing hasn't been terribly exciting to me. I'm almost waiting for the offseason again, wondering whether the next AC's boat design parameters will be much the same or quite different. 

Guess cats are here to stay.


----------



## Minnewaska

If majority of 17 is the actual rule, then the Cup is won if NZ gets to 8, regardless of how many wins US has at the time. They would be mathematically eliminated. I have a feeling it doesn't work that way, as all the announcers keep referring to winning 9.


----------



## chris_gee

It is the first to nine however many that takes.
It is not unknown for governments to put some money into sport, often promotion and training. I think the NZ Government put in thirty or forty million - a small proportion. In past cups there has been public fundraising - like selling socks. A shortage of funds was why the government initially stepped in with a donation, but it sure is not government sponsored.
Now it seems sponsorship or rich guys indulgence.
I think it is possible to reach a point where the costs are so high they are largely prohibitive so the sport suffers.
In reality there have been few teams able to be serious competitors and frankly limited interest from most of the world.
On Sailnet there are very limited comments. On CF none. Anything Sailing none (partly perhaps as Guilletta let slip last time his disinterest arose because it wasn't held in Portugal, and besides the focus is on his race results.) Sailing Anarchy detailed discussion from probably the hard core. NZ well they get a bit stirred up with a national pride thing.


----------



## Omatako

Minnewaska said:


> Subterfuge again? Do you have a point you would like to make about funding the AC, racing or sailing?


No, that comment was just tongue-in-cheek trying to suggest that governments have other things on their minds than AC contests that appeal to a quickly diminishing audience. But I think I made that point a while ago.


----------



## smackdaddy

Just watched the replay. The Kiwis are just the best sailors there are. Period.

It's like a clinic with every race. Much respect to Barker, Dalts and the rest of the NZ team. Bloody monsters - all of them.


----------



## Faster

It's looking like a lock, alright, but one never knows for sure til it's over.. and I have to say I'm enjoying watching it more than I expected.. actually like the short race format, leaves more time for other stuff.


----------



## ScottUK

I think it has more to do with the ability to design then the ability to race. Would prefer to see a true OD but I doubt that is going to happen.


----------



## Faster

ScottUK said:


> I think it has more to do with the ability to design then the ability to race. Would prefer to see a true OD but I doubt that is going to happen.


That would certainly 'prove' the better sailors, no doubt, but it's never been the basis of the Americas' Cup.


----------



## smackdaddy

ScottUK said:


> I think it has more to do with the ability to design then the ability to race. Would prefer to see a true OD but I doubt that is going to happen.


At the end of the day, at least looking at the pure performance numbers of these two boats, you are very close to OD performance.

What's killing Oracle is bad starts, strategic mistakes, and general sloppiness. The only win they have came when NZ were guilty of these same things.

NZ is just better, smarter, and more consistent than OR. It's not really about the boats at this point.


----------



## JonEisberg

Faster said:


> It's looking like a lock, alright, but one never knows for sure til it's over.. and I have to say I'm enjoying watching it more than I expected..


I agree, I've really come around to better appreciating these boats, and the sailing involved, and have enjoyed watching them race immensely... At least, for those races or portions thereof that have been close, and competitive...

Although I'm pulling for the Kiwis, it's too bad the series seems not likely to go on beyond Sunday, I'd like to see more...


----------



## ScottUK

> It's not really about the boats at this point


Really! Oracle is getting hammered on the beat all the time. They really didn't have any real sail handling problems and did pretty much the same route as ETNZ and still were trounced upwind.

Added to this it is almost a complete white wash so far. The teams both contain arguably the best sailors in the world. If the boats were equal Oracle would be a lot more competitive.

This is from a person who wants ETNZ to win. Lastly, it's about time you chimed in Smack.


----------



## jzk

smackdaddy said:


> At the end of the day, at least looking at the pure performance numbers of these two boats, you are very close to OD performance.
> 
> What's killing Oracle is bad starts, strategic mistakes, and general sloppiness. The only win they have came when NZ were guilty of these same things.
> 
> NZ is just better, smarter, and more consistent than OR. It's not really about the boats at this point.


These boats are far from the same. Oracle has won most of the starts. But, they just can't go upwind with ETNZ.


----------



## Minnewaska

It seems NZ is clearly faster upwind, but US has an edge downwind. That may reasonably even the boats out. However, if i had to choose, I would take the upwind boat every day. The real problem for the US is NZ has had better tactics, or at least hasn't screwed theirs up like OR has a few times,  and has executed with near precision, which is what it really takes to win the AC.


----------



## smackdaddy

jzk said:


> These boats are far from the same. Oracle has won most of the starts. But, they just can't go upwind with ETNZ.


They're not _far_ from the same at all. I agree with Minne's breakdown of the upwind/downwind advantages, but they are minimal (hence the sub-minute splits at the finishes).

It's the sailing and strategy that's making the critical difference - not the boats. OR just can't sail as well as NZ. How do you blow a 40 second lead DOWNWIND _on the first leg_? By being OR.


----------



## smackdaddy

Oh - and anyone that wants the AC to go back to monos is a complete nutbird. Watch some of this "nail biting" racing from the Rolex Maxi:

regattanews.com - Video Gallery

The commentator actually uses the term "nail biting"! Seriously? These guys are doing 7-8 knots in that shot!

Compare that with 40 knots on these AC72s - then appreciate the technology making yacht racing more interesting than paint drying.


----------



## ScottUK

So then what team would you bet (honestly) the house on if they switched boats?


----------



## SchockT

I do think the kiwis have the superior boat, although not by a lot. They aren't any faster up wind, but they kill Oracle in the tacks. Part of that may be the extra buoyancy in ETNZ's hulls, and the self tacking jib, but I think you also have to give the crew credit too. You don't see nearly the same number of mistakes on ETNZ as you do on OR. Could the Oracle crew do better on the ETNZ boat? perhaps. But who is to say that the ETNZ crew couldn't get more out of the Oracle boat?


----------



## ScottUK

Also think ETNZ knows they are better upwind and so they are less pressed so are less likely to make mistakes. 

The crews have both been alluding to ETNZ being better upwind however with the racing still going on I think they are going to down play the issue at least until it is over then we will likely get a better idea of what they thought.


----------



## jzk

smackdaddy said:


> They're not _far_ from the same at all. I agree with Minne's breakdown of the upwind/downwind advantages, but they are minimal (hence the sub-minute splits at the finishes).
> 
> It's the sailing and strategy that's making the critical difference - not the boats. OR just can't sail as well as NZ. How do you blow a 40 second lead DOWNWIND _on the first leg_? By being OR.


You do it by being slower upwind. Foiling tack debacle aside, Oracle lost that race upwind.


----------



## jzk

smackdaddy said:


> Oh - and anyone that wants the AC to go back to monos is a complete nutbird.


Agreed. This is some of the coolest stuff I have seen in sailboat racing ever. And, despite the domination by ETNZ, these have been some great races. Trading leads upwind in race 6? That was pretty awesome.


----------



## LaurenceU

I am hooked. I've only seen re-plays so far but I'll be up at 4am Sunday morning to see the live feed. (hope it's not restricted)


----------



## jzk

LaurenceU said:


> I am hooked. I've only seen re-plays so far but I'll be up at 4am Sunday morning to see the live feed. (hope it's not restricted)


To get around the restrictions, see the thread on sailing anarchy.


----------



## jzk

Who said OTUSA was slower upwind?


----------



## SchockT

They're not. Their upwind boat handling was hurting them, and they were doing better at that today. The changes they made to the boat seem to have helped them a bit too. Still, I think ETNZ lost the race today more than Oracle won it! Whatever happened to cause the near capsize took them out of the race. I am sure they were just happy to finish in one piece!


----------



## ScottUK

> Who said OTUSA was slower upwind?


I think both teams have.


----------



## JulieMor

SchockT said:


> Still, I think ETNZ lost the race today more than Oracle won it! Whatever happened to cause the near capsize took them out of the race.


During that incident they were yelling "hydro! hydro!" Barker later said the boat tacked but the wing didn't. I think what happened was the wing didn't have enough hydraulic power to tack (change its shape) and they were yelling at the grinders to grind harder to build up the hydraulic pressure so they could tack the wing. Whatever the case, they sure rode the razor's edge long enough!

During the after-race commentary, I thought I heard one of the commentators mention the possibility of ETNZ losing the Cup if their boat had actually capsized and was damaged. Maybe that near capsize was why the race committee cancelled the 2nd race as soon as they did.


----------



## SchockT

Yeah for whatever reason they didn't have enough hydraulic power to pop the wing onto the new tack. Whether it was a mechanical problem or one or more of their grinders wasn't getting it done I don't know. They didn't seem to be scrambling to do repairs between races so perhaps it was a rare and near disastrous crew error.

I think the rules around maximum wind speed and when a race gets called are pretty well set in stone. There is no room for judgement calls on the part of the RC.


----------



## Omatako

ScottUK said:


> Really! Oracle is getting hammered on the beat all the time. They really didn't have any real sail handling problems and did pretty much the same route as ETNZ and still were trounced upwind.


By now everyone will know that Oracle are back and whilst they seem to have revolutionised their boat, they are also sailing it much better.

And whilst they have only made one dramatic mistake (foiling tack? yeah of course) their tacking has been tardy all along until now with boat speeds dropping to 8kn in the tack. Suddenly they're tacking better that ETNZ some of the time with some tacks holding 15 knots through the turn and some legs fully foiling at 34 knots upwind.

Like they say, it ain't over till it's over. We have just watched two of the best match races I've witnessed in years with two boats having closing speeds of up to 60 knots!! Breathtaking.

I reckon from now on there will be a lot of excellent sailing but unless ETNZ screw up real bad (and they've shown that they can - ½ a degree from disaster ) they only have to win one race in three to take the cup. So whilst my optimism has been seriously knocked, I'm still quietly confident that I'll be watching the next AC from the decks of my own boat.

Just a perspective of where we are at this time - ETNZ have to win 2 more and OTUSA have to win another 8. That's a tough ask.


----------



## JulieMor

I find myself wondering if Oracle has looked better because the increased winds keep them up on tacks. In races they have lost, both pontoons were in the water during tacks and they lost a lot of speed. Emirates didn't seem to have that problem.

Spithill made one judgement error that took them out of race two yesterday. I'm no pro but when I saw him drop back rather than challenge Emirates, I thought, "Oh, No!"  The commentators didn't seem to have quite the reaction though.

I'd like to see average wind speeds for each race and compare that to who won. I'm thinking somewhere around 15+ knots is what Oracle needs to stay competitive. The entire crew just seems to work better when the winds are up. And that's the only time they have won so far.


----------



## ScottUK

> Suddenly they're tacking better


I think they have been given the ability to tack better through boat modifications and the ebb tide. As I said previously I don't think the crew difference was great enough for the results we had been seeing.

The racing was great yesterday and I would like to see a very competitive AC but have ETNZ hold on.


----------



## smackdaddy

Honestly, I think most of it comes down to one thing: all-in-all Dean is a better driver than Jimmy. He wins almost every start, he typically keeps Jimmy boxed in on the course, and (near-capsize notwithstanding) when he does make an aggressive move, it typically pays off - where Jimmy is just being too aggressive too late, making mistakes virtually every time.

OR has definitely improved...but not enough to win the string of races they need to win to stay in it. NZ will have to have _serious_ screw-ups to lose this (like the near-capsize). But I just don't see Dean making too many of those.


----------



## Minnewaska

Driving, trimming, tactics, aggressive decisions, boat design, etc. What are we getting for the billions invested? These are the same fundamentals since the first race. They just go faster. Now that I've watch this many races, the speed isn't all that thrilling anymore, nor even all that noticeable from a distance. I keep telling myself how incredible it must be to be sailing at 40 kts, but it doesn't look like it from afar.

I also think that helmets and sunglasses make even the players whose faces I would recognize become indistinguishable.


----------



## smackdaddy

Minnewaska said:


> Driving, trimming, tactics, aggressive decisions, boat design, etc. What are we getting for the billions invested? These are the same fundamentals since the first race. They just go faster. Now that I've watch this many races, the speed isn't all that thrilling anymore, nor even all that noticeable from a distance. I keep telling myself how incredible it must be to be sailing at 40 kts, but it doesn't look like it from afar.
> 
> I also think that helmets and sunglasses make even the players whose faces I would recognize become indistinguishable.


I disagree, I think the speed is incredibly thrilling. The crosses, quick moves, and near misses at 40+ knots are finally making yacht racing exciting. It's really amplifying the little mistakes much more than you'd see in the old mono racing...and making it compelling for a wider audience.

I still think this is the right direction for the AC. If they abandon foiling multis, they're fools.


----------



## JulieMor

As I watch the sailing world warm up (sort of) to the AC72s, I wonder what the pressure will be for the next AC to do something jaw dropping. Can you really go back to slower boats after this and not lose fans? Is there any place in NZ that has the consistent winds SF Bay does? This might be hard to top.


----------



## chris_gee

I am not sure that one skipper stands out over the other. Starts are probably close to equal, given that since it is not a windward start being marginally over the line first doesn't help, rather it is the first to the circle at mark one gains rounding rights and the leeward boat can have the advantage there. In the last few races that has gone to the boat with port entry.
Secondly covering the trailing boat is standard match racing. When close enough behind for it to count JS has set up split tacks which put ETNZ in a position of having to do two tacks to cover, or at best an extra tack if left. 
Where once ETNZ was tacking better OR did better in the last race or two so they may be less ready to get into a tacking duel. That means there is some risk of the opposition picking up a windshift as OR did.
Both are top level skippers, but it doesn't mean that neither will make a mistake which can be costly in a 20 minute race.
It is a spectacle surely and can be exciting, however the venue gives a short narrow circuit with a pretty constant wind reducing the wind variability and tactics and strategy.
There have been other exciting races, albeit slower.


----------



## smackdaddy

I could be completely wrong about this - but my gut hunch is that Larry E doesn't care that much about the actual Cup. He cares more about the ACWS. That's a very tv-friendly style of racing that could work on a continual basis - world-wide - and could generate real revenue. I think that's the value he really sees. Will he spin that out of the AC and try to serialize it into an actual Nascar/F1-like sporting event?

I would if I were him.


----------



## Omatako

JulieMor said:


> As I watch the sailing world warm up (sort of) to the AC72s, I wonder what the pressure will be for the next AC to do something jaw dropping. Can you really go back to slower boats after this and not lose fans? Is there any place in NZ that has the consistent winds SF Bay does? This might be hard to top.


Dalton is on record as saying two things that are both in my view game changers. If they win the cup (and whilst that may appear likely it isn't yet guaranteed) their intention is:

- to make it more affordable and encourage more syndicates to participate. That doesn't mean slower boats - it just means smaller, less expensive ones.

- to make the entries more "national" - don't know whether he means that participants (crew) will be required to hold a passport of the country they're sailing for or if just the syndicate represents a country. That is contradictory to AC protocol in my view because historically the Defender and Challenger were required to represent a legitimate yacht club, not a country. Unkindly I think he means the former because as I have suggested in previous posts, if New Zealanders are forced to sail for New Zealand, the challengers have a considerably smaller pool of talent to draw on and ETNZ will have the best of the best.

Let's see who wins this AC before speculating.

Oh, and no, we (Auckland) don't have those consistent winds but then racing shouldn't be only about heavy-ish weather. It's always been said that real sailors win in light airs. I wouldn't mind seeing these monsters sailing downwind under an acre of Code Zero. I reckon they could triple true wind speed.


----------



## ScottUK

> What are we getting for the billions invested?


I think it has been established the US doesn't fund sailing so for most US citizens anything gotten out of it is a bonus since they do not have anything invested. The 'billions invested' is a bit of an over reach.


----------



## ScottUK

> That's a very tv-friendly style of racing that could work on a continual basis - world-wide - and could generate real revenue.


Just don't think it will go mainstream. Not enough interest per capita with NZ and posssibly OZ being the exception.


----------



## Minnewaska

ScottUK said:


> I think it has been established the US doesn't fund sailing so for most US citizens anything gotten out of it is a bonus since they do not have anything invested. The 'billions invested' is a bit of an over reach.


You've taken the comment a bit too literally. Ellison drew up a format that cost so much that all but a few couldn't even pay for the boat. All they got for that incredible increase in cost is a faster boat. The rest of the race is the same stuff.


----------



## Minnewaska

smackdaddy said:


> I disagree, I think the speed is incredibly thrilling. The crosses, quick moves, and near misses at 40+ knots are finally making yacht racing exciting. It's really amplifying the little mistakes much more than you'd see in the old mono racing...and making it compelling for a wider audience.
> 
> I still think this is the right direction for the AC. If they abandon foiling multis, they're fools.


Who recommended going back to monos? I just see no advantage in these hulls that are so expensive, entire teams had to take a pass. The only time I can really distinguish how fast they are going, is when they show a camera shot perpendicular to the boat, so you can see the water going by. However, I can't see the race itself in that shot. When the shot is from a helicopter, I would love to see someone shown a 30 kt and a 40 kt boat and try to tell the difference consistently.

The races are more exciting than I expected, I just don't see how the incredible investment was necessary. If they raced the 45s, it would have been just as exciting, for example.


----------



## JulieMor

Any predictions on how today's races will go?


----------



## smackdaddy

Minnewaska said:


> Who recommended going back to monos? I just see no advantage in these hulls that are so expensive, entire teams had to take a pass. The only time I can really distinguish how fast they are going, is when they show a camera shot perpendicular to the boat, so you can see the water going by. However, I can't see the race itself in that shot. When the shot is from a helicopter, I would love to see someone shown a 30 kt and a 40 kt boat and try to tell the difference consistently.
> 
> The races are more exciting than I expected, I just don't see how the incredible investment was necessary. If they raced the 45s, it would have been just as exciting, for example.


I totally agree with you on the 45s. That was some great racing.


----------



## Omatako

smackdaddy said:


> I totally agree with you on the 45s. That was some great racing.


An AC45 wit a more powerful rig, some foils and you have a real budget AC72 with all the required sailing skills and nobody gets killed - hard to disagree with that.


----------



## sailwatcher

I like Omatako's idea. 45's with foils. I just can't get over how tall these boats are. They just don't seem to resemble even slightly many of the boats that Joe Budweiser owns at his harbor in, say, Monterey, Ca.

I guess they shouldn't. They're kind of the Le Mans cars of the water. But there should at least be some likeness in size to the most common boats out there, I'd think. 

As far as monos vs. cats, to me they are quite different beasts, but I like them both. In al reality, though, noone can expect to go back to monos, I don't think.

And now, to tab on over to the WMRT and see what's up withthat series, if anything.


----------



## JulieMor

OTUSA will race another day. They looked the best I've seen them so far. On the upwind leg,It looked like Oracle was choosing a lower point of sail to gain a couple knots in speed. This kept them up on their foils more than Emirates and helped them keep their speed up through the tacks. If sailing off the wind a bit was the plan, it worked. But the wind was strong again and that seems to be what Oracle likes best.

OTOH, that 30-second window average  I have no idea why they created a rule where an average wind speed over any 30-second period that exceeds 20K can cause the clock to reset to 15:00 and begin the countdown all over again. Then you have to wait for another 15 minute period to pass hoping the wind speed won't max during any other 30-second period. Couldn't they have set it for a minute or two?

And while they were waiting for that average to stay below the max, the average wind speed, over the entire time they were waiting, was a little over 16K. Why set yourself up for so many cancelled races?


----------



## jzk

Oracle looked really good today, tacking faster than ETNZ.


----------



## JulieMor

*AC 34 - What the?*

This is really turning out like no one expected. ETNZ is in the lead and looking at an easy win... and then time expires and the race is cancelled. For once the winds didn't show up. But we got to see the code zero!

Next race, OTUSA pulls ahead and takes the win. ET 8, OT 3. And tomorrow NZ tries once again to get that one last win.

Sailing even the sailing world didn't expect. And I'm kinda liking those AC72s now.


----------



## White Knight

Its a Kiwi speaking--How many more times must ETNZ be denied the final race win through dumb rules-I must admit they did not sail to their usual faultless performance in todays second race but tomorrow is another day.-Go ETNZ


----------



## JulieMor

*Re: AC 34 - What The...?*

Yeah, this is kinda frustrating, but fun too. All of the cancelled races, most by too much wind, but today's first race by too little. Or maybe too much dallying for dominance by the competitors.

It's still fun.

Maybe this just shows how much these best-of-the-best have to learn about these Formula One Race machines. And we got to see the CODE ZEROS deployed! 

The Kiwis (at least on the Emirates boat) came into this race the best prepared and the best racers. The Kiwis and Aussies on Oracle seem to be using the actual Cup Matches as a learning platform. Jeez, I thought they had that down pat by now.

But I'm really having fun. :thewave:


----------



## Faster

Heartbreaking to see the time run out at such a late juncture, odd that the crew seemed to think they had more time.

The 'cross' was incredible, I don't think there's any doubt that Oracle had to 'duck', I can't imagine driving those boats at those closing speeds (even on a light air day... 'Jeez, Gary, the boats are so slow today' - and they're still doing 20 knots .)

Full credit to Oracle today in the rerun.. they seemed to have higher boat speeds generally, and sailed a smart race. Still say it's a shame there's only a couple of Americans on the "US" boat.


----------



## harmonic

only one american on board today


----------



## PaulinVictoria

40 minute races, gotta fit into the 1 hour TV time slot and allow enough time for commercials I guess. Yet another dumb AC moment. I really, really, really hope that whoever gets it next time makes a better job of it all. The boats are spectacular and had an opportunity to put on an amazing show for sailing and non-sailing fans alike. From what I can tell, they've mostly managed to alienate both sides at once which is perhaps the most impressive thing about it all.


----------



## poopdeckpappy

I have to admit, I had lost all interest in the AC then, a slow day at work I youtube the race, now, I don't know what to say other than amazing. the speed, the grace........pretty nice


----------



## Minnewaska

Kiwis must be frustrated, but the rules are far from dumb. Time limits are nothing new and they impact your strategy. You may have to choose between blocking and running for the line before the time expires. The max wind limit is smart on these boats as well. These teams would push themselves to catastrophe without a limit.

That said, has Oracle been penalized yet? I recall twice to NZ. Each boat has had there good and bad races. I hope it goes 8-8 with a final showdown.


----------



## sailwatcher

This has been rather bizarre to watch. I'm no sailor. Just a fairly casual, but interested fan.
I missed todays races due to a soccer match I had committed to going to. But I was completely shocked that Oracle, which has had its back against a wall for what seems like eternity now, pulled out two more wins, and now the regatta is fairly close---but could still end any day with one more NZ win. 

The racing has been mostly fun to watch. I do love the foiling. I liked the drama of Oracle falling back so far, but then the race being abandoned. Well, maybe once. After a while, the drama from these strictures get old. 

While I love the speed of the cats, I do miss the maneuverability of the monos. Frankly, I don't care whether the next AC is for cats or monos, but I also hope the DOG itself is never amended to require cats (if it even can be. I don't know how amendments work). 

I'd sort of like smaller boats back. I liked the size of the AC 45's pretty well, but weren't those OD's? AC should never be OD. Hell, I don't even like it for the VOR.


----------



## Faster

sailwatcher said:


> ....
> I missed todays races due to a soccer match I had committed to going to.


You needn't miss anything.. the races are live on Youtube, but you can review/rewind/rewatch all the races there anytime you like.


----------



## sailjunkie

After seeing Faster's vid about foiling moths (another thread) and a vid on production foils for Lasers, the age of the traditional mono-hull may be past. Those boats are incredible.


----------



## Minnewaska

Faster said:


> You needn't miss anything.. the races are live on Youtube, but you can review/rewind/rewatch all the races there anytime you like.


YouTube is blocked live for me, since the first race day. It says it's blocked in the US, but it may be regional. I haven't been able to see the races on youTube until 6 hrs later. If I go straight there over coffee in the morning, I have often seen the race before I hear the result.

If I happen to be able to catch them live, the NBC Sports iPad/iPhone app has worked well. It's free, but you must sigh up via your cable TV account. You don't pay your cable carrier, you just need to have already paid for the service indirectly.

While not live, it's nice to catch them on Youtube without commercials.


----------



## jzk

You still need not miss anything. There are several ad-ons to spoof you to appear in another country like Hola unblocker, etc.



Minnewaska said:


> YouTube is blocked live for me, since the first race day. It says it's blocked in the US, but it may be regional. I haven't been able to see the races on youTube until 6 hrs later. If I go straight there over coffee in the morning, I have often seen the race before I hear the result.
> 
> If I happen to be able to catch them live, the NBC Sports iPad/iPhone app has worked well. It's free, but you must sigh up via your cable TV account. You don't pay your cable carrier, you just need to have already paid for the service indirectly.
> 
> While not live, it's nice to catch them on Youtube without commercials.


----------



## JulieMor

By the time the Kiwis had their commanding lead in the series, I had found myself coming up with all sorts of reasons why it was so lopsided but couldn't accept the possibility Oracle's problem against Emirate was one of experience.

Oracle was getting _killed_ on the 3dr leg and it seemed no matter what kind of lead they had built at the start and on the 2nd leg, it was erased and then some in the 3rd leg. Now Oracle is winning that leg. They are even getting up on their foils, something many doubted these boats could do to windward.

When I watched the races yesterday I began to understand just how much of an advantage the challenger had racing in the LV series. The AC72 is a brand new boat, foiling is a new concept to the AC, and there's a high learning curve becoming proficient with these boats. I'm beginning to think the early drubbings Oracle had taken were mostly due to lack of experience with the AC72.

In yesterday's races I saw an Oracle team that simply out-sailed Emirates. Then made better tactical decisions, got better speed out of their boat and found the better winds. I don't know how much was the addition of Ainslie to the crew, but it seems he and Spithill are really in synch.

I know the chances of Oracle winning the remaining races is slim. They really can't make a mistake. But while I'd be amazed if they did, there's a part of me that almost expecting it... almost.


----------



## jzk

Oracle will lose this for one reason and one reason only. They were not prepared. They did not get their boat up to speed until it was too late. They did not learn how to sail it until it was too late.

Sure it is great that ETNZ got to sail in more "competitions" than did OTUSA. But these guys are professionals. They have teams of analysts looking at the data. They had every opportunity to practice and know exactly how ENTZ sails in every single wind condition/angle. They had two boats to practice against eachother however they wanted. OTUSA just did not get it together fast enough. Had the competition started today, it would be a way different AC.


----------



## JulieMor

Using golf as an analogy, I liken Oracle's practicing against their teammates to a golf pro competing against his or her caddy. While Emirates would be more like the golf pro out playing on tour against other pros, where one shot can mean being eliminated from the tournament. Oracle was in the Cup regardless. The challenger has to earn their way and when something like that is on the line, you work harder to get there.


----------



## jzk

JulieMor said:


> Using golf as an analogy, I liken Oracle's practicing against their teammates to a golf pro competing against his or her caddy. While Emirates would be more like the golf pro out playing on tour against other pros, where one shot can mean being eliminated from the tournament. Oracle was in the Cup regardless. The challenger has to earn their way and when something like that is on the line, you work harder to get there.


On the surface, I think your point makes sense. But these guys are professionals, and there is serious coin being invested in this. They have the data and a room full of analysts looking at every aspect of every second of ENTZ's prior races. They have rooms full of engineers looking at every aspect of the boat and its performance. And the sailors were great sailors before this competition.

And they know exactly who they are practicing against, and the limitations of such. There is no excuse for them suddenly getting an extra six or more knots out of their boats a week too late.


----------



## smackdaddy

jzk said:


> Oracle will lose this for one reason and one reason only. They were not prepared. They did not get their boat up to speed until it was too late. They did not learn how to sail it until it was too late.
> 
> Sure it is great that ETNZ got to sail in more "competitions" than did OTUSA. But these guys are professionals. They have teams of analysts looking at the data. They had every opportunity to practice and know exactly how ENTZ sails in every single wind condition/angle. They had two boats to practice against eachother however they wanted. OTUSA just did not get it together fast enough. Had the competition started today, it would be a way different AC.


You'll notice that I was convinced earlier in this thread that this would be over very quickly. I've been surprised.

Jimmy sucked at the starts early on, as well as the tacks. He was aggressive, but always late. This has obviously changed. And that in itself is impressive...to gain so much so quickly.

It's also been interested watching Dean kind of crater. The pressure really seems to be knocking him. On the flip-side of the competition issue you guys are discussing, I think the fact that no one EVER really challenged NZ throughout the LVS is actually hurting them now. They're wilting instead of rising.

All that said, I think they'll win it. OR is just too far down. But it is definitely the best AC racing I've ever seen. Period.


----------



## RTB

jzk said:


> Oracle will lose this for one reason and one reason only. They were not prepared. They did not get their boat up to speed until it was too late. They did not learn how to sail it until it was too late.


Why are you saying it is too late? Oracle has momentum, and a slightly faster boat now. Two wins today for Oracle, and they can wrap it up tomorrow with two more wins. That doesn't seem so impossible, does it? It puts incredible pressure on the defender, no doubt. New Zealand might win the first race today, who knows? But, it's not *too late* for the U.S. boat. Just sayin....

Ralph


----------



## jzk

smackdaddy said:


> It's also been interested watching Dean kind of crater. The pressure really seems to be knocking him. On the flip-side of the competition issue you guys are discussing, I think the fact that no one EVER really challenged NZ throughout the LVS is actually hurting them now. They're wilting instead of rising.


I can't believe my eyes. He is looking frustrated, intimidated and extremely rattled. That is not the kind of thing he should be bringing to the press conferences.

He has a lead that is near insurmountable. Instead of looking so worn and beaten, he should just be maintaining the way he carried himself earlier. "Oracle is a formidable opponent, we don't take our lead for granted, each race requires 100% effort, and that will bring us success, we never assumed that Oracle would not win some races," etc.


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## jzk

RTB said:


> Why are you saying it is too late? Oracle has momentum, and a slightly faster boat now. Two wins today for Oracle, and they can wrap it up tomorrow with two more wins. That doesn't seem so impossible, does it? It puts incredible pressure on the defender, no doubt. New Zealand might win the first race today, who knows? But, it's not *too late* for the U.S. boat. Just sayin....
> 
> Ralph


I am an Oracle fan. I would like nothing more than to see them win, especially in this comeback. Would this be the greatest comeback in the history of sports? The greatest victory in the history of sports right up there with the 1980 USA hockey team? This comeback is freaking outrageously cool. And I am not saying it is impossible. Just near impossible. At this level, any given day could throw the race one way or another on luck alone. That is why they have so many races.

But just being honest. Oracle is dominating now and with better preparation, they could have just dominated the whole thing. They did lose their wing trimmer. They did lack "real competition." But come on?


----------



## Minnewaska

I'm hoping this get tied up 8-8. That would be an awesome following race!

While Oracle has won 7 races, they only have 5 points, begin docked two to start with. They need to sweep again today and the first race tomorrow. I have to clear my calendar tomorrow afternoon, if possible!!


----------



## Faster

Barker needs to try for that inside lane at the start.. that luff/delay both races put them behind at the get go.. Doesn't explain the whole scenario, but if they at least 'won' the first mark that would help.

But lately it's just like the first 4 or 5 races, only with roles reversed.... so why???


----------



## Faster

Barker needs to try for that inside lane at the start.. that luff/delay both races put them behind at the get go.. Doesn't explain the whole scenario, but if they at least 'won' the first mark that would help.

But lately it's just like the first 4 or 5 races, only with roles reversed.... so why???


----------



## JulieMor

FWIW, Emirates longest win streak in the series is 3, which they have done twice. Oracle now has a 3-win streak. And that's in part thanks to the one race exceeding the time limit. So I'm thinking Oracle has another win or two in their pocket.

It was on September 26, 1983 that the Aussies broke the longest winning streak in all of sports. Right now there are no races scheduled for the 26th with 2 today and 2 tomorrow (9/24) but we've seen a lot of races cancelled. So in the *Even More Unlikely Scenario* category, it would be possible to have the Cup decided again on September 26th.


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## jzk

OTUSA win streak is 4.



JulieMor said:


> FWIW, Emirates longest win streak in the series is 3, which they have done twice. Oracle now has a 3-win streak. And that's in part thanks to the one race exceeding the time limit. So I'm thinking Oracle has another win or two in their pocket.
> 
> It was on September 26, 1983 that the Aussies broke the longest winning streak in all of sports. Right now there are no races scheduled for the 26th with 2 today and 2 tomorrow (9/24) but we've seen a lot of races cancelled. So in the *Even More Unlikely Scenario* category, it would be possible to have the Cup decided again on September 26th.


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## JulieMor

jzk said:


> OTUSA win streak is 4.


Hmmm... maybe their time is shorter than I thought.


----------



## jzk

jzk said:


> otusa win streak is 4.


5?


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## RTB

In the post race interview on NBC, Dean Barker looks like he has given up. 3 races to go.


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## JulieMor

*Re: AC 34, Race 16*

Dummy me got involved in other stuff before realizing what time it was. It was 4:30 Central when it hit me. So I'm wondering if I turn on the TV will I find it's all over? Then I see the results. This is really unbelievable!

If Oracle pulls this off, I wonder what that will do to the next AC. Ellison isn't the most popular guy in sailing. If he keeps the same format, will we see another limited entry on the challenger side? A few days ago I think anyone following this was convinced NZ will be deciding what happens in the next AC. Now I'm not so sure.


----------



## JulieMor

Minnewaska said:


> YouTube is blocked live for me, since the first race day. It says it's blocked in the US, but it may be regional. I haven't been able to see the races on youTube until 6 hrs later. If I go straight there over coffee in the morning, I have often seen the race before I hear the result.
> 
> If I happen to be able to catch them live, the NBC Sports iPad/iPhone app has worked well. It's free, but you must sigh up via your cable TV account. You don't pay your cable carrier, you just need to have already paid for the service indirectly.
> 
> While not live, it's nice to catch them on Youtube without commercials.


I got this from CF:


> You can stream it via a proxy server from another country.
> 
> The easiest way to do that is to use Firefox with the Hola unblocker plug-in (Hola is also available for Windows Internet Explorer, Android, Chrome and other browsers) it's also free.
> 
> Hola puts a little flamming smiley in your toolbar. Open the AC feed on YouTube, if it shows 'blocked' just click the Hola smiley and choose another country to proxy from. Bada Boom, Badda Bing ... AC racing on your monitor sans cable fees. You gotta love hackers.


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## pdqaltair

Or will it be the year of the asterisk; NZ with more points and USA with more wins?


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## SchockT

My guess is that IF ETNZ manages to pull off a win and take the cup, Ellison will have a pack of lawyers in court for years trying to take it back by challenging the penalty. 

Of course given their history of cheating, one can't help but wonder if the modifications they made to their boat to make it faster were legal...

There could be all kinds of asterisks on this AC!


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## Omatako

I agree that it looks like Barker is giving up - in the last race he was the leeward boat and Spithill was windward of him. Despite Spithill luffing Barker in three races, Barker allowed Spithill to sail right on by without even an attempt to push him to weather and slow him down. From a multiple world champ match racer that was a display of a total lack of aggression. And that is no way to win against Spithill who displays aggression in every move he makes.

But here's what I think of the change in fortune.

ETNZ has had a lot of racing, time to get their boat going and learn all there was to learn. And compared to everything else, they looked hard to beat. Along came Oracle and they couldn't keep up. For a while. Then they start hammering ETNZ on a regular basis and suddenly they look invincible.

So maybe intrinsically, their boat was always a better design. But they took longer to learn how it worked or rather, they had less race time. But as they got to know the boat better, they were able to explore/develop its true potential.

And that potential was/is better than the potential of ETNZ's boat which has been at its peak for a while and has nothing further to offer.

And as I said in another (or earlier) post these AC series have for years been a runaway train for the better boat. And if the Oracle boat is better and is now delivering its full potential, nobody should be surprised if Oracle win the next three races.

As much as it burns my a$$ to see ETNZ starting to routinely lose, I must acknowledge that Oracle at this time look like they won't require a court case to win - they just need the next three races.


----------



## Omatako

SchockT said:


> My guess is that IF ETNZ manages to pull off a win and take the cup, Ellison will have a pack of lawyers in court for years trying to take it back by challenging the penalty.
> 
> Of course given their history of cheating, one can't help but wonder if the modifications they made to their boat to make it faster were legal...
> 
> There could be all kinds of asterisks on this AC!


You must keep in mind that this is not match racing in the true sense of the word. True match racing involves identical boats and in the serious regattas the skippers rotate boats to make sure there is no equipment advantage.

AC may resemble match racing but the boats can, within the rule, be whatever they are needed to be. Example: Oracle removed their bowsprit. Made the boat lighter. Reduced windage. Did this violate the rule? Not at all. ETNZ lost two crew members over the side. Made the boat lighter. Did this violate the rule? Apparently not. So where do the changes/modifications begin and end? I don't believe that the rules in this race are the same as they were in the ACWS where the boats were class-governed.

So cheating is probably not an element of concern.

Let's face it, Oracle have found the perfect balance. Their boat has become stable, fast and easy to manage. It's going to be hard to beat. ETNZ now need to pray for Spithill to screw something up.

For me the real enduring pity is that if ETNZ loses, they may not be back and that would be a real loss for the future of the AC.


----------



## smackdaddy

SchockT said:


> Of course given their history of cheating, one can't help but wonder if the modifications they made to their boat to make it faster were legal...


As much as I hate to say it - I think this is the real asterisk in this race. 
A turn around this quickly will definitely raise eyebrows. And that's all on OR's cheating history.

Still - this is yacht racing my friends.


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## nolatom

As a Yank (well, sorta, this is New Orleans after all) I'd like to see Oracle take it.

But I also think the Kiwis might be better as hosts, and as keepers of the Cup. Might we actually return to national crews?? Heaven forfend..

But this series has stopped me from whining about how the monohulls (I grew up in M'head with the 12s, two of which were built there in the boatyard I worked in as a kid) were better and more "pure" racing. I now see that these machines are once again the "space program" for sailing, and the tactics and tacking have their own rhythm--just different from the monos is all, but still really exciting in a close race. I gotta keep up with the times.


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## JulieMor

The expression on Barker's face in the post race conference looked one of shock. His answers were short and unemotional. Spithill seemed to be shining and the press was hanging on his every word.

They say sports is 50% mental. If ETNZ doesn't get an emotional boost, the Big M Oracle is riding on may carry them through.

Whatever happens, I hope Ellison and company don't take the jury decision to court. For the rest of who are watching, that would only open wounds that are now beginning to heal.


----------



## nolatom

Oracle took the first race this afternoon, wire to wire. windward/leeward foul & penalty at the start killed NZ. Put them about 20 seconds back, and that was the winning margin.

Wow, dare we hope?? Every day Oracle has had the death-sword over them, and every day they've won.

TV better wake up and promote this if the series gets to "even".


----------



## JulieMor

Anyone for _The Impossible Dream_?





Unbelievable! Oracle lost the start, were behind at Gate 1 and even further at Gate 2 and then on the upwind leg pass NZ and leave them in their wake and go on to a lead of over 1000 meters. 

Tomorrow, weather permitting, the winner of the Cup will be decided.


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## killarney_sailor

Looks hard for NZ to come back. Oracle just looks a lot faster at this point, gets on the foils and is stable once there.


----------



## Minnewaska

Minnewaska said:


> I'm hoping this get tied up 8-8. That would be an awesome following race!.....


Crystal ball? This series has been remarkable.

OTUSA is just simply out sailing ETNZ all day long. It seems to be rattling the Kiwis as they continue to incur penalties and make mistakes.


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## jzk

In all of sports, where has there been a greater comeback than this could be?


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## smackdaddy

Minnewaska said:


> Crystal ball? This series has been remarkable.
> 
> OTUSA is just simply out sailing ETNZ all day long. It seems to be rattling the Kiwis as they continue to incur penalties and make mistakes.


I was so wrong.

OR is a _completely_ different team/boat than the one in the first 6 races. Making up 200 meters UPWIND on NZ??? WTH???? Wasn't it just a couple of weeks ago that NZ was spanking OR upwind AND winning every start?

It will be a phenomenal last race. And I will honestly feel very bad for Deano if he loses this.

Yacht racing has just become a very exciting sport. Thank you LE.


----------



## JulieMor

jzk said:


> In all of sports, where has there been a greater comeback than this could be?


30 years ago tomorrow, Australia II came back from a 3-1 deficit in the best of 7 series to be the first ones to break the 132 year stranglehold the US had on the America's cup. The US boat, Liberty, had the lead in the final race over the 24 mile course. In the final 4-1/2 miles to the finish, Liberty tacked 47 times in an effort to get out of the bad air the Aussies were leaving them after they took the lead, but failed. Liberty skipper, Dennis Connor, was crucified for losing the Cup.

That was the first time in Cup history the series had gone the full 7 races. And the first time USA had lost. It made it on the front page of the two major Chicago newspapers (I still have the copies.)


----------



## jzk

Yes, awesome comeback from 3-1 and in final race. But this was 8-1 with Oracle looking pretty hopeless. Now it is 8-8.



JulieMor said:


> 30 years ago tomorrow, Australia II came back from a 3-1 deficit in the best of 7 series to be the first ones to break the 132 year stranglehold the US had on the America's cup. The US boat, Liberty, had the lead in the final race over the 24 mile course. In the final 4-1/2 miles to the finish, Liberty tacked 47 times in an effort to get out of the bad air the Aussies were leaving them after they took the lead, but failed. Liberty skipper, Dennis Connor, was crucified for losing the Cup.
> 
> That was the first time in Cup history the series had gone the full 7 races. And the first time USA had lost. It made it on the front page of the two major Chicago newspapers (I still have the copies.)


----------



## Minnewaska

smackdaddy said:


> ..Yacht racing has just become a very exciting sport. Thank you LE.


I think I just vomited in mouth. 

What's been most exciting is the comeback. If LE actually had anything to do with that, they'll just be more sanctions later.


----------



## DrB

*Well it basically comes down to this*

After spending millions and millions on "spacecraft boats", countless hours designing, building, strategy, crew selection, practice, races, damaged boats, etc., it comes down to a 35 minute match sprint race around a bunch of cans, to see which owner ego can brag until the next megamillionaire boat/yacht "Amercia's Cup" race.


----------



## sully75

That was killer. I feel bad for Dean Barker. He seemed invincible earlier. I was hoping it would be a bit closer early on.


----------



## JulieMor

What if Oracle came back from a 8-1 deficit and won it all?

Now we know. 

The Oracle's Achilles heel 3rd leg was turned into an advantage. Over 600 meters ahead at one point today after being behind at the 2nd gate. 

But what's with the sparkling wine? Couldn't Larry afford champagne?


----------



## nolatom

Wow. Oracle clearly faster, no real tactical errors from NZ but none from US either after the start at least, so it became a boatspeed race, we had, Kiwis didn't.

Just Wow.


And I too feel bad for the Kiwis, they are great guys and worthy competitors. Sailing is huge over there, making this all the tougher to go home to.


----------



## smackdaddy

Speechless.





Rare.


----------



## sully75

Dean Barker looked like he was going to loose it.


----------



## chef2sail

The best team won.


----------



## overbored

What If !


----------



## jzk

sully75 said:


> Dean Barker looked like he was going to loose it.


Dean is a class act, a sportsman and a gentleman.


----------



## White Knight

It is obvious that ETNZ went into the regatta with a boat "fully loaded" with no more technical improvements to be made and had to rely on crew work--While OTUSA had the computer controlled foiling system still to perfect early on and perfect it they did as evidenced by the vastly improved upwind speed in the most recent races while ETNZ could only battle on with their manually operated foiling system.--Let us not forget that the unkind wind gods in two earlier races quite possibly robbed ETNZ of two wins which would have got them to nine a week ago.--Congratulations to OTUSA on their win and thanks to both teams for giving us some spectacular yacht racing which has been such fun to watch.


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## jzk

ETNZ did improve during the finals. Apparently their tacking speed minimum was dropping down to 9 knots, but at the end was up to 14 knots.


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## smackdaddy

White Knight said:


> It is obvious that ETNZ went into the regatta with a boat "fully loaded" with no more technical improvements to be made and had to rely on crew work--While OTUSA had the computer controlled foiling system still to perfect early on and perfect it they did as evidenced by the vastly improved upwind speed in the most recent races while ETNZ could only battle on with their manually operated foiling system.--Let us not forget that the unkind wind gods in two earlier races quite possibly robbed ETNZ of two wins which would have got them to nine a week ago.--Congratulations to OTUSA on their win and thanks to both teams for giving us some spectacular yacht racing which has been such fun to watch.


White - that really is the most heart-breaking part of this outcome. The fact that the Kiwis had that light-wind race sewn up, but were just 5 minutes or so too slow. I just really feel for Deano. You guys give him and the boys a helluva homecoming. They deserve it.


----------



## RTB

White Knight said:


> Let us not forget that the unkind wind gods in two earlier races quite possibly robbed ETNZ of two wins which would have got them to nine a week ago.


Racing has rules. It's the same for everyone. No one was robbed.

That being said, I was pulling for you guys. Hopefully the team will receive a warm welcome back home. Dean and crew put on one hell of a challenge. Nothing to be ashamed of. These cats are crazy. Just imagine what it's like to drive one!

Ralph


----------



## sailjunkie

White Knight said:


> It is obvious that ETNZ went into the regatta with a boat "fully loaded" with no more technical improvements to be made and had to rely on crew work--While OTUSA had the computer controlled foiling system still to perfect early on and perfect it they did as evidenced by the vastly improved upwind speed in the most recent races while ETNZ could only battle on with their manually operated foiling system.--Let us not forget that the unkind wind gods in two earlier races quite possibly robbed ETNZ of two wins which would have got them to nine a week ago.--Congratulations to OTUSA on their win and thanks to both teams for giving us some spectacular yacht racing which has been such fun to watch.


Very good points.

I must admit that when I began to watch the finals, I was pretty disgusted with both Catamarans and Larry Ellison. To make things worse, Oracle had lost the first two races, and it looked like ETNZ was going to run away with it.

As I watched, however, I became fascinated by the speed of those boats, and the beautiful backdrop in which this was taking place. On the humorous side, I was also grateful that I don't need to wear a crash helmet when I go out.

As Oracle began to win race after race, in spite of the hole they had dug for themselves, I admired them for not quitting. I began to hope they would make it a regatta.

By Sunday, I had realized that both boats and crews were evenly matched. The contest would come down to small steps.

By today, I realized that this was enjoyable to watch.

So Knight, congrats to you for being a graceful sportsman.

Also, congrats to ETNZ. They have nothing to be ashamed of.

And congrats to Oracle, for demonstrating that one should never give up!

Finally, congrats to both crews, for putting on a show they can all be proud of.


----------



## chris_gee

As one of the few Kiwis here I offer OR my congratulations. For whatever reason they improved in the last week or so.
As for ETNZ well as an armchair sailor I say that you creamed it at first, and when it reversed for whatever reason, you hung in there.
Dean, no-one appreciates more than you the what ifs and the if onlys. However, you gave it your best shot at the time on the day, and rattled their dags The whole series would have been much the lesser without ETNZ. But it is a game and as such we take it on the chin and congratulate the winners. Whether or not it is worth persisting with this professional, "national", rich man's, and racing addicts vanity is another issue


----------



## Omatako

As another Kiwi here, the performance of OTUSA was nothing short of remarkable. Their boat just got better and better and the positivity of Spithill is legendary. He never lost the belief that they could win and he just kept going. Amazing.

And Barker and the boys? Well, they started with the best boat and it just got relatively slower. How did that happen? Who knows, it just did.

But as Kiwis we have a lot to be proud of. We staffed all the teams to a greater or lesser degree. We designed and built the boat that Luna Rossa used. We built much of the boat that Oracle raced. We conceptualised the foiling AC72. And on a limited budget we brought a world class challenge to the table. Nothing embarrassing about that.

My only enduring hope is that this is not the end of ETNZ. Our Prime Minister was heard to comment in New York today that he was not ruling out another contribution to the next adventure. And when one thinks of the coverage/exposure the sponsors got from ETNZ, there's no reason to believe they'll be running for cover either.

Congratulations OTUSA, you served up a racing delight that will be remembered for a long time.


----------



## Minnewaska

Amazing series. Regardless of all the controversy this past year, I don't know anyone that didn't find it to be more engaging than expected. Unquestionably, it was one of, if not the, greatest comeback in sports. 

Unfortunately, outside a tight circle of sailors, the general public in the US wasn't even aware of it. Still aren't.

I remain very conflicted in so many ways. I've made it clear that I think Ellison is a bad actor. His team cheated, he drove the cost so high that entire countries couldn't compete and by pushing beyond the edge of technology, someone died. The true definition of the bleeding edge. It is all at his feet and I believe he can't see behind the trophy.

Nevertheless, I am extraordinarily impressed by OTUSA's performance. They did it all from improve the boat to sail well, amidst the most overwhelming odds. I thought Spithill almost lost most of his credibility among the team scandals and the opening failures. However, that comeback will put him among the greatest AC skippers of all time.

Barker remains a class act. In many ways, I'm even more impressed. I fear he won't dwell on the races that timed out as much as the numerous penalties that were all avoidable. He seems like a fella that doesn't deserve that fate.

I'm very happy that the Cup race will stay in the US, though disappointed that Ellison will keep it. I'm still curious if more of the cheating scandal is primed to bite him after the fact. If he were banned, I wonder if the club still gets to offer a defender through a different member?

I hope they tone down the risk to the crew, but keep the boats relatively fast. I could not tell the difference between 30 knots and 45 knots on TV. I would actually prefer to see them sail various courses and conditions, rather than what amounted to 19 versions nearly identical. I only recall one race that made any real use of the gennaker. Offshore, inshore, heavy air, light air, start upwind, start downwind. That's a test. Newport is, in fact, well suited. In hindsight, who can't sail the same course every day in plenty of wind that came from the same general direction? 

I'm already looking forward to the next one.


----------



## Faster

Well said, Minne.

I think the trend to the ultra expensive - you can't afford to compete - will ultimately hurt the event. Dial it back, keep the 'cool' foiling cats but smaller, and ultimately I'd like to see a more nationalistic base to the make up of the crews and designers.

It will never be a true one-design, and that's not the intent anyway.

Not sure we'll ever see the big foiling cats trying to play in open water, though!


----------



## JulieMor

chris_gee said:


> The whole series would have been much the lesser without ETNZ.


Oracle would have never been pushed to where they were without ETNZ. Your guys forced Oracle to get better or get creamed, and they did for a while. I'll never forget the beating Oracle took in the first half of the series. That was quite a lesson.

It's interesting, after reading the article from the newspaper I still have from the '83 Cup, I kept thinking about a comment where Australia was saying it was Connor who taught them how to be better sailors. The best make everyone else get better.

Looking back, it was the upwind leg where most races were won. Maybe every race, I didn't see them all. That made me wonder if sailing these cats upwind had a much higher learning curve than downwind.


----------



## DrB

*Pivotal Point - Going Forward*

I think with the unbelievable come from behind win, interest in sailing has increased not only amongst sailors, but also the general public, at least my perception in the US. Several folks in my office ask me about the race everyday and what's going one.

This is pivot point with AC , Elisson, and team. They can either make it a more costly race and therefore less participants, which will mean less interest or scale back and make it more "affordable", allowing more teams to compete.

I think everyone realizes that the "old 12 M" design is done. Not fast enough anymore. Everyone wants speed. However, the Volvo OC70 boat or type of boat, could be just as exciting to watch in the right conditions, and probably less costly to build. The basic design is already there.

I thought SF was great venue to have the race in. Newport/Buzzards Bay could also be a spot, but where ever, one would need consistent wind and good viewing points.

As Minnewaska says, instead of the standard same course each day, mix it up. It would be cool to see a true downwind start, a triangle course, etc. I do like the shorter, multiple race/day format.


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## White Knight

J class boats at Newport for the next AC,now wouldn't that be a spectacle.


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## chall03

As one of the few Aussie's here, for lending you Spitty to steer your toy boat and win your cup I say your welcome


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## Minnewaska

:laugher

Best I can tell, every Caucasian in Australia and New Zealand was original lent by the Brits. In fact, that's where my family came from too. You can thank me, if it would make it easier.


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## chall03

Minnewaska said:


> :laugher
> 
> Best I can tell, every Caucasian in Australia and New Zealand was original lent by the Brits. In fact, that's where my family came from too. You can thank me, if it would make it easier.


Oh ok then. Thanks as well.


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## smackdaddy

I'd sure like to know what they chaged on OR to get that kind of boost. I think a huge part of it was BenA...but he couldn't have been all of it.


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## Minnewaska

BenA was clearly calling the shots much better. I'm betting it was the foils themselves they messed with, or the programming for them.


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## AlaskaMC

*Re: Pivotal Point - Going Forward*



DrB said:


> I think with the unbelievable come from behind win, interest in sailing has increased not only amongst sailors, but also the general public, at least my perception in the US. Several folks in my office ask me about the race everyday and what's going one.


I have found the same thing. Just got off the phone with a colleague that has little to no interest in sailing and he was very excited about the race and had watched it on TV with his family. So, maybe, just maybe this will actually increase interest in sailing in the US. That would be just awesome.


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## Faster

*Re: Pivotal Point - Going Forward*



AlaskaMC said:


> I have found the same thing. Just got off the phone with a colleague that has little to no interest in sailing and he was very excited about the race and had watched it on TV with his family. So, maybe, just maybe this will actually increase interest in sailing in the US. That would be just awesome.


" Hey, sailing looks really cool.. I watched the America's cup!"

"Nice"

"Gonna buy a boat and start sailing.. what's a good one to start with?"

"Oh... maybe drop a few grand on a Catalina 22 - see if you really like it"

Buys the boat, launches it, starts looking for the foils.. oh well... here's a good breeze, let's go... 4.5 knots???? WTH?????


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## smackdaddy

LE mentioned Hobie Cats in the post-win press conference. That would be a great place to start.


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## AlaskaMC

*Re: Pivotal Point - Going Forward*



Faster said:


> " Hey, sailing looks really cool.. I watched the America's cup!"


Actually, kinda funny in fact, my friend I was referencing is a power boater with a pretty big boat. He was thinking the ACs move way too fast and dangerous. He thought it was cool to watch, but wouldn't want to be on one of em. I would in a heartbeat!


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## Omatako

*Re: Pivotal Point - Going Forward*



DrB said:


> As Minnewaska says, instead of the standard same course each day, mix it up. It would be cool to see a true downwind start, a triangle course, etc. I do like the shorter, multiple race/day format.


Yeah that would be cool.

They could do that in the NASCAR series too. This week they could go clockwise. Next week the other way. Maybe a figure 8 course could add some excitement. Maybe they could change the grid iron rule. Maybe have them play on a triangle with three teams. But only on dates with even numbers. Maybe for fun they can change Wimbledon to a square court.

Most sports have the same field/court/track/course for every game. The reason the nature of the AC course has changed (no windward starts, beam reach finish, etc) is because the boats that they are racing are not able to bob and weave the way others in history did. A collision of two yachts at 9 knots wouldn't even spill the beer. At closing speeds of potentially 75 knots, a collision will kill a whole lot of people. Even with only one boat involved in an accident, someone died.

If I recall the AC series I watched in 2003 in Auckland, the course was different only inasmuch as it moved from place to place in the Gulf but that that was not to make it different, it was so that the course could actually stay the same. It was changed so that they could still have a windward start, two beats and two runs which used to be classic AC.

AFAIK it has in modern times always been that way. Why would it want to change now?


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## smackdaddy

I agree Oma. The set course is a good direction.


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## chall03

smackdaddy said:


> I'd sure like to know what they chaged on OR to get that kind of boost. I think a huge part of it was BenA...but he couldn't have been all of it.


It was the foils.

Without dropping a bunch of names all over the floor, I heard that from a pretty close, reliable source.


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## smackdaddy

That makes sense. The way they were consistently foiling upwind compared to NZ was pretty incredible.


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## chall03

*Re: Pivotal Point - Going Forward*



AlaskaMC said:


> I have found the same thing. Just got off the phone with a colleague that has little to no interest in sailing and he was very excited about the race and had watched it on TV with his family. So, maybe, just maybe this will actually increase interest in sailing in the US. That would be just awesome.


Racing fleets have been in a huge decline over here in Oz. There is a huge crew recruitment drive on at my club.

Yet James Spithill was a youth development graduate of this club, one of our very own, and the vibe down here at Wednesday afternoon racing was just electric. I was actually only there to check the batteries on my boat, but i couldn't help it and I hopped on a boat and went racing.

I get the cynicism, the dust will settle and maybe very little will change. Then again maybe seeds have been sown.

The dock I walked down this morning with a trolley of biodegradable toilet paper and cleaning products is actually the one where a teenage Jimmy Spithill used to go out match racing on the club boats. It's also where a couple of Olympic gold medallists learn't to sail as well. It's a plain old looking dock on Sydney's northern beaches, no glory or glamour here, just seagull crap.


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## Minnewaska

I'm not a NASCAR aficionado, but I believe the tracks do differ from one to another, if not the direction itself. Aren't some longer or shorter, with different turn radius and/or banking? Grid irons from game to game are indoor and out, artificial and natural turf, played during the day and night, sun and snow. They play home and away, which mixes up the crew dynamics.

To each their own, but I would find the AC more interesting, if it were a decathlon more than a best out of 17 series around the same track in conditions that have to be within narrow parameters because the voluntarily chosen equipment is too dangerous otherwise.


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## ScottUK

I think this sums it up from my perspective.

The Cynical Sailor & His Salty Sidekick: What A Bugger


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## DrB

*Re: Pivotal Point - Going Forward*



Omatako said:


> Yeah that would be cool.
> 
> They could do that in the NASCAR series too. This week they could go clockwise. Next week the other way. Maybe a figure 8 course could add some excitement. Maybe they could change the grid iron rule. Maybe have them play on a triangle with three teams. But only on dates with even numbers. Maybe for fun they can change Wimbledon to a square court.
> 
> Most sports have the same field/court/track/course for every game. The reason the nature of the AC course has changed (no windward starts, beam reach finish, etc) is because the boats that they are racing are not able to bob and weave the way others in history did. A collision of two yachts at 9 knots wouldn't even spill the beer. At closing speeds of potentially 75 knots, a collision will kill a whole lot of people. Even with only one boat involved in an accident, someone died.
> 
> If I recall the AC series I watched in 2003 in Auckland, the course was different only inasmuch as it moved from place to place in the Gulf but that that was not to make it different, it was so that the course could actually stay the same. It was changed so that they could still have a windward start, two beats and two runs which used to be classic AC.
> 
> AFAIK it has in modern times always been that way. Why would it want to change now?


If you are going to disagree with me, try not to come across and pompous jerk with your "Hey that would be cool (you Idiot).." response attitude. I have no problem with your difference in opinion, just the way you came off in your response, to me at least, as somewhat of jerk.

In response to your these boats can't weave and bob statement, so you you can't have various types of starts comment, I saw Oracle do a 180 deg Turn in 3 boat length at 20+ kts. Seems pretty maneuverable to me.

Building on that, these boats do race downwind and upwind during the race, so why can't you have a suitable start line line set up for this? Were not talking a hoard of OD boats all racing for the line, it's two boats. I have been in several boat races with both types (up/down) starts with a lot more boats without issue.

Also, I am not talking about doing circle , criss-cross, or some other weird set-up course, on odd days, or whatever, I was suggesting you use standard normal sail boat race courses with slight mods, such as upwind start, down wind start, off-sets at the marks, etc.

Having races that are different courses in the series can minimize the strengths of each boat. Boats that do well upwind can take advantage of races with upwind starts or races with more upwind legs. Boats that sail better downwind, similarly on the more down wind leg courses.

As it was in AC34, all races were the same, 2 downwind legs and one upwind leg with a 2 short reaches. Had the there been a boat that was notably faster in the downwind legs, they would have an advantage during the series.

I am all for safety and the death of the sailor was tragic and sad. However, there are risks in everything we do, and just because these boats go faster, doesn't make them any less safe. Yes they go faster, but there are also sailed by the probably some of the best sailors in the world. There competence at the helm and control should minimize the risk compared to Beer Can Racer Joe Sailor.


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## JulieMor

As for mixing it up, this is taken from the Deed of Gift:

In case the parties cannot mutually agree upon the terms of a match, then three races shall be sailed, and the winner of two of such races shall be entitled to the Cup. All such races shall be on ocean courses, free from headlands, as follows: The first race, twenty nautical miles to windward and return; the second race an equilateral triangular race of thirty-nine nautical miles, the first side of which shall be a beat to windward; the third race (if necessary) twenty nautical miles to windward and return; and one week day shall intervene between the conclusion of one race and the starting of the next race. 

It looks like the Auld boys were thinking of putting a bit of variety in the mix, just a bit.

But this part today's fans would never go for:

...and each of such races must be completed within seven hours.


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## capecodda

I find myself conflicted on everything associated with this race.


The GOOD: I really enjoyed watching. Fast, foiling, exciting, and short. Great TV coverage with excellent graphics. What amazing machines and complex team work required to make them go, and some classy guys driving both boats.

The BAD: I missed he more tactical traditional AC with lots of slam dunks, tacking duels, sail changes, etc. Too few lead changes during a race. Too narrow a condition window for racing (wind speed, direction, fixed course) driven by the technology I think. IMHO the balance between crew work and technology in determining the outcome got driven a bit too far towards the technology, not that it doesn't take amazing crew work to keep these boats going and upright!

The UGLY: Being a US guy, I wanted the US to win, but am not a Larry fan, and our guys got caught cheating.


But thinking back, every AC I can remember had some controversy. It's the nature of the beast. And, I plead guilty, I tried to resist but once I started watching I didn't miss a single race.


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## downeast450

*Re: Pivotal Point - Going Forward*



AlaskaMC said:


> Actually, kinda funny in fact, my friend I was referencing is a power boater with a pretty big boat. He was thinking the ACs move way too fast and dangerous. He thought it was cool to watch, but wouldn't want to be on one of em. I would in a heartbeat!


Me, TOO! Hoping I can afford a ride. That has to be one of the uses these boats can be put to now.

The X-Games take to the water! Every auto sport enthusiast will find a reason to start paying attention to these races. Not necessarily because they actually do it, or intend to, any more than they intend to start short track racing, but because it is exciting to watch.

Undoubtedly it will get the attention of a few who might go out and buy a Hobie Cat. I doubt it will add much to the ranks of sailboat owners.

Hoping some of the technology gets shared in more detail. Have they managed to run the foils by computer? How much adjustment is possible and how? I want to know more about the wing and its trimming operations.

Is it time for the Seal Harbor Yacht Club to buy a fleet of Moths and some wet suits? Oops! Lobster pot floats! They will add a dimension of uncertainty, honing the skill of the young sailors who already have their hands full avoiding other boats and finding the wind. Can't imagine a very practical application for foil sailing Downeast. Too many things to hit at 6 k Not to mention 40! The wing on the other hand will show up. A hinged mast like the ones Marshall offers for their catboats that would allow the wing to sit flat when "stowed". It must be possible to design an efficient wing for any boat. I want to see one for a gaff rigged cat boat. Ha!

Exciting stuff!

Down


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