# Mooring bouys



## seascene (Oct 24, 2012)

I cruise BC waters. In southern waters mooring bouys are ever increasing. This is a "what if"... you enter an anchorage and your only option is a lone mooring bouy available and you take it. What happens if the owner of the bouy arrives 03:00 knocks on your hull and asks you to leave?

... thanks...


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## LinekinBayCD (Oct 19, 2009)

You leave and find another option.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

seascene said:


> I cruise BC waters. In southern waters mooring bouys are ever increasing. This is a "what if"... you enter an anchorage and your only option is a lone mooring bouy available and you take it. What happens if the owner of the bouy arrives 03:00 knocks on your hull and asks you to leave?
> 
> ... thanks...


Mooring buoys that are clearly NOT park buoys are off limits, as far as we're concerned. It's not only the 'private' issue - for all you know the buoy was intended only to hold a small runabout. Having no idea of what's on the bottom nor what shape the tackle is in is a risky proposition for anything other than a lunch stop.

If the owner shows, I don't see how you have any recourse but to quickly remove yourself from his/her property.


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## seascene (Oct 24, 2012)

I suppose the question may also arise to the effect that there may be room to drop your hook but your swing would take you overtop or very close of/to their bouy. If several bouys were vacant a boat seeking anchorage would then needs be obligated not to drop the hook in effect concede the boatless anchorage and leave? In a bad blow I made for shelter and did face this situation. I dropped my hook... bouy owners did not arrive so I do not know how that would have turned out. ... (respectfully... thanks for input)


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Yeah, it can be tough to 'find a spot', esp in summer and at a popular spot. Plumper Cove on Keats Isl is a classic.

But the etiquette is really the same if you're picking a spot amongst other boats, or between/among mooring buoys, it's just tougher with buoys because of the usually radically different swinging circle. So yes, it's possible to infringe on a private (or a park) buoy without even tying up to it...


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## downeast450 (Jan 16, 2008)

I have returned to my mooring in Seal Harbor to find another boat there hoping we were away cruising. Never had to ask them to vacate. Somehow they knew I was headed to that spot before getting close enough exchange "instructions". A finger pointed at the ball, then at me, followed by a wave of understanding and immediate action. The condition of the gear can be a "crap shoot" unless you know the numbering code and enforced inspection protocol of the village's harbor master.

I have wondered about finding the "visiting" boat's owner tied up and gone. I "understand" you don't touch someone's boat regardless of the infringement. That is how I learned it to be here along the coast. You find an alternative and then find the owner. I suppose a call to the harbor master is an option. One of my "visitors" was already boarding their dink for a trip to shore when we arrived home.

Down


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I'm with Faster, its just not right to take/use someone's property. However, most people I know would do it. Personally, I would sooner drop the hook in a cove occupied by nothing but a dozen empty private moorings, than squat on one. That's just me.

There are some exceptions. There is a private mooring field no the Isle of Shoals, where it is published that you may use one if empty, but with the understanding that a member may ask you to leave. That's fine. 

I would also rather sleep over my 1/2" chain and anchor than wondering what some random gear might be below.


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## smallboatlover (May 11, 2011)

The way i do it is take the mooring that lookes best at the mooring field and if its empty. But If some one wants there mooring back i go fast as i can to leave the mooring and just find another one.


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## blutoyz (Oct 28, 2012)

Around here tying to someones mooring is like pulling up to their dock...you don't do it, it is private property. I actually have two friend cans behind my house and I still will put out my own this year. If I ever see a strange boat on them the first thing that I will do is call to let them know.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

This has nothing to do with whether I think its right that people can have personal moorings in a harbor to the exclusion of others. Thats a battle for the municpality

To me its a matter of philospohy. Its not mine. I didnt put it there. I didnt pay for it. I am not going to pay for it. What right do I have to use someone elses property without asking. To me to do so shows a lack of respect of others property.

This of course assumes no emergency.

Dave


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## downeast450 (Jan 16, 2008)

chef2sail said:


> This has nothing to do with whether I think its right that people can have personal moorings in a harbor to the exclusion of others. Thats a battle for the municpality
> 
> To me its a matter of philospohy. Its not mine. I didnt put it there. I didnt pay for it. I am not going to pay for it. What right do I have to use someone elses property without asking. To me to do so shows a lack of respect of others property.
> 
> ...


Amen!

Down


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## marcusc130 (Oct 8, 2011)

The harbor where I have my mooring is a spot that frequently fills up on summer weekends. Twice last year I came back from a sail and found someone on it. They both claimed ignorance and thought they were public moorings (even though its marked with my name and permit number), so I offered to let them raft up for the afternoon. I've even offered up the ball if I see someone milling around the anchorage when I'm headed out. 

A little tip: If the bridle is clean when you pick it out of the water, the owner just left and will probably be back soon. If its covered with crap, they probably don't use the mooring.


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## downeast450 (Jan 16, 2008)

My solution would be to raft if the need arises.

Down


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

downeast450 said:


> My solution would be to raft if the need arises.
> 
> Down


Yes, that would be the 'neighbourly' thing to do. For me it would depend on a couple of factors - How crowded the harbour/basin was and, more than anything, the attitude of the 'interloper'. It would also depend, I suppose, on what loads the buoy was intended for and the expected weather.


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## Ferretchaser (Jan 14, 2011)

seascene said:


> I cruise BC waters. In southern waters mooring bouys are ever increasing. This is a "what if"... you enter an anchorage and your only option is a lone mooring bouy available and you take it. What happens if the owner of the bouy arrives 03:00 knocks on your hull and asks you to leave?
> 
> ... thanks...


errrrr don't you have a anchor. ..... they just lifted the mooring bouys here and the thickness of the chains or rather lack of it would make me think 3 times about hooking up to one of those things. I know the gear I have on board and rather rely on that , then some stupid little mushroom excuse of an anchor wot a chain that I woukld not have in my bird cage, let alone trust the well being of my boat and me on.
In other words get a good anchor and chain and sleep well and not depend on others doing the work for you.

ATB

Michael


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

In most BC anchorages there is no such thing as harbour masters or municipalities, which don't have any jurisdiction over the water anyway. If I found someone tied to my mooring, I would simply raft up. On public docks in BC, rafting is mandatory , you have no say in the matter, and if someone comes along side you while you are tied to one, they simply raft up, period.
I have heard of waterfront property owners who don't even own a boat, putting out mooring bouys to claim ownership of the bay in front of them. They have no legal authority, and the anchorage remains public property. I simply help myself to the use of the buoy, and if they came in at 3am, I would simply invite them to raft up, and go back to bed.
I test buoys by tying up and giving it a good shot of reverse. If it breaks, then I did the owner a favour by making sure it chose to break when his boat was not tied to it while he was ashore, in a gale. If I get no hassle from the owner, I feel obliged to clean the growth of it and possibly stick a piece of Solas reflector tape on it, to make it easier to find in the dark. If he gives me any hassle I just tell him he doesn't own the ocean, and to to get lost.
Having sole use of your buoy is great, til you find others have claimed ownership of every other place you would like to anchor.
Time to push back a bit, before we lose our freedom to anchor anywhere.


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## seascene (Oct 24, 2012)

The anchorage that I dropped my hook in had mooring bouys which I did not use. However, I did not want to concede ownership of this entire anchorage to boat owners not there at the time. I anchored and my swing path took my boat over one of these bouys and very close to another bouy. If the owner had arrived, I would have suggested rafting. If that was mutually acceptable fine. Otherwise I could see an unpleasant situation develop...


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

I have a dock and I have moorings for my boats, which I use when the wind picks up. Normally the moorings, which are marked with my name, are open. I have a standing offer for catboaters to use my shallow water moorings if they are available and check with me first. I have never denied the courtesy if a stranger asks. If I see someone in need, like someone who is arriving at dusk and might not be comfortable finding the anchorage a half mile north off a winding channel, I will offer free use. 

That said, if someone picks up my mooring and is hanging out for a while with no attempt to make contact, I may get in my dinghy and ask them to leave. If someone is is in distress, there's no question that they should be given slack--if not active assistance.

The bottom line for folks looking for a mooring of convenience: Ask first!


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Many of the spots in which I used to be able to freely anchor are now loaded with moorings that apparently never get used. Places such as Potter's Cove up in Narragansett Bay, and the back of Hadley Harbor, and Fisher's Island are now chocked full of moorings that no one seems to use, making it nearly impossible to find a spot to anchor. Municipalities with their insatiable grab for money seem to have filled every bloody square foot of water with moorings that I would not trust even if I knew they were available to the general boating population. There *are* places like Atlantic Highlands and even in Newport Harbor with the common courtesy to leave space for anchoring FOR FREE. It should be illegal for anyone to deny access to people who want to use their own anchor. It's really a safety issue. If all the safe anchorages are filled with questionable moorings, it creates a dangerous situation by causing people to anchor in places that are not protected and by people tying to those unknown moorings when they are either not maintained or not strong enough for their boat.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Brent Swain said:


> In most BC anchorages there is no such thing as harbour masters or municipalities, which don't have any jurisdiction over the water anyway. If I found someone tied to my mooring, I would simply raft up. On public docks in BC, rafting is mandatory , you have no say in the matter, and if someone comes along side you while you are tied to one, they simply raft up, period.
> I have heard of waterfront property owners who don't even own a boat, putting out mooring bouys to claim ownership of the bay in front of them. They have no legal authority, and the anchorage remains public property. I simply help myself to the use of the buoy, and if they came in at 3am, I would simply invite them to raft up, and go back to bed.
> I test buoys by tying up and giving it a good shot of reverse. If it breaks, then I did the owner a favour by making sure it chose to break when his boat was not tied to it while he was ashore, in a gale. If I get no hassle from the owner, I feel obliged to clean the growth of it and possibly stick a piece of Solas reflector tape on it, to make it easier to find in the dark. If he gives me any hassle I just tell him he doesn't own the ocean, and to to get lost.
> Having sole use of your buoy is great, til you find others have claimed ownership of every other place you would like to anchor.
> Time to push back a bit, before we lose our freedom to anchor anywhere.


You can anchor where you want, Even in the mooring field. Even next to my mooring ball. Using a piece of property not yours however is where I would draw the line. You do nont loose the freedom to anchor where you want at the same time understanding that the ball is still owned by me and you have no rights to it.


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

No offence to others with an alternate view point, but here is mine:

I'm lucky enough to have a town mooring in New England. It's my ground tackle but it's everyone's sea bed. Please feel free to use my mooring if it's empty. If I come home, be prepared to move post haste. Otherwise, don't chafe my penent and enjoy the view!

Sail safe and peace be with you.


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## seascene (Oct 24, 2012)

I do not want your bauble in the bay as we seem to agree.


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

Mystic Harbor has designated mooring fields. On the Stonington side there are 3 designated anchorages in the Mystic Harbor Management Plan, which was vetted with the state and passed by the Town legislative body. One of these, in the "Noank Grid" has been usurped by moorings placed by Groton entities and is effectively not available, pending resolution. The second one, opposite Mystic Shipyard, is designated by markers. The third is north of Mystic Seaport. 

I am not aware of any designated anchorages on the Groton side.


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

fallard said:


> Mystic Harbor has designated mooring fields. On the Stonington side there are 3 designated anchorages in the Mystic Harbor Management Plan, which was vetted with the state and passed by the Town legislative body. One of these, in the "Noank Grid" has been usurped by moorings placed by Groton entities and is effectively not available, pending resolution. The second one, opposite Mystic Shipyard, is designated by markers. The third is north of Mystic Seaport.
> 
> I am not aware of any designated anchorages on the Groton side.


I was issued a mooring permit in Noank. Not sure of the legalese of it all but I had a mooring installed and all was approved by the harbormaster.


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## downeast450 (Jan 16, 2008)

Over the past 40 years I have and have had mooring gear from Eastport to Bowdoinham along the Maine coast. Some locations are regulated by local municipalities, others not. To anchor safely among the moorings is always an option. "Safely", is the key. 

One of our current moorings is in a location that gets a lot of cruising traffic for the best of reasons. The regulations are there to protect everyone. Residents can expect their "parking place" will be there when they return from a ride. Finding a place to park your 40' boat after a picnic on one of the islands could add a bit of stress to the day's outing. "Reserved parking" makes sense. Rating and inspecting mooring gear reduces the likely hood that neglected tackle "releases" a boat to find a path to shore through the field during a blow. I drop my mooring chain myself for winter and inspect my gear annually. The town requires it every third season on Mount Desert Island. Mooring are rated for boat size permitted. This means the weight of the anchor and the size of the chain along with the scope of the boat is planned. I oversize mine as a personal approach.

These conditions are different in Bowdoinham. My town permit is $50.00 / year to set my gear in Mount Desert. It is $80.00 / year in Bowdoinham? The Bowdoinham mooring is up in an estuary and virtually fw. It is not subject to the swells of the ocean so very little wear on the chains and there is no 10 year waiting list but I am required to pay for an inspection every two years. It helps pay for the town dock and I love my connection to that peaceful boating community. If you want to anchor in the estuary it is a well protected place and there are ample safe places. Not so in Seal Harbor. An overnight on my mooring in SH will rock you to sleep or keep you from it. Politics are part of the equation in both places.

Down


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

I think it's wrong for waterfront owners to put out a mooring ball in order to prevent other boaters from anchoring there. 

From my dock I can see not less than a dozen empty balls that in the past two years have never had a boat on them - Some I've seen pulled up and moved by a guy in a 8 foot pram. 
The sole reason they are there is to prevent others from anchoring. 

Unregulated mooring balls here in Maryland are becoming a problem.


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## blutoyz (Oct 28, 2012)

chucklesR said:


> I think it's wrong for waterfront owners to put out a mooring ball in order to prevent other boaters from anchoring there.
> 
> From my dock I can see not less than a dozen empty balls that in the past two years have never had a boat on them - Some I've seen pulled up and moved by a guy in a 8 foot pram.
> The sole reason they are there is to prevent others from anchoring.
> ...


That is rude...Up here every mooring is registered and an annual renewal (with $$$ of course) is due. If it is not, every spring a barge comes around, yanks them up and away they go. 
I will admit that if someone anchors behind my house I am curious but that is only because I am at the end of a cove way up in the bay and cruisers usually don't come up here. I actually called my wife once from the airport to ask who was in our "backyard" because I saw them when we were landing...LOL


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## downeast450 (Jan 16, 2008)

Here you must have a boat on your mooring to keep it and it must be yours.

Down


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

When your ball threatens to foul my anchor, and leaves inadequate swinging room to avoid it, I will use it anytime I please,. If some one comes back in daylight, in god weather, and wants his mooring back I will leave and find anther .At 3 am. I will not.
Who do you ask if there is no phone number on it and no payphone for miles?


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

If I came back and found someone on a clearly marked personal mooring I would ask them to leave. If they refused or were not there I would take my property back. Use your anchor...not my property 

The physical mooring was purchased by me and you have no rights to it.


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

Brent Swain said:


> When your ball threatens to foul my anchor, and leaves inadequate swinging room to avoid it, I will use it anytime I please,. If some one comes back in daylight, in god weather, and wants his mooring back I will leave and find anther .At 3 am. I will not.
> Who do you ask if there is no phone number on it and no payphone for miles?


I think (and hope) you might be confusing legal, licensed/permit moorings with something else.

I was on a waiting list for 10 years, I spent a couple of thousand dollars on the equipment and installation. I spend more on inspections and new penants every year.

If I come back and want my gear back, you are moving. You might not think you are, but you are. If you really wanted to be a wanker about it, I'll just dinghy over and cut my own penant. I'd eat the $$.

That being said, as I posted earlier, if my mooring is empty I don't care if someone borrows it and I'll even pick up another empty mooring or go unload at the dock rather than have them move right away if it's convenient for me to do so. But that would be up to me.


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

If I were kayaking in your mooring field and saw your unoccupied boat, would you mind if I boarded her and relaxed in your cockpit for a while? I wouldn't be hurting anything! That's what I might tell you if you came by and took offense.

Of course, I wouldn't do that, but what's the difference when someone uses a private mooring without permission? 

Chef2sail has it right.


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

fallard said:


> If I were kayaking in your mooring field and saw your unoccupied boat, would you mind if I boarded her and relaxed in your cockpit for a while? I wouldn't be hurting anything! That's what I might tell you if you came by and took offense.
> 
> Of course, I wouldn't do that, but what's the difference when someone uses a private mooring without permission?
> 
> Chef2sail has it right.


I don't make a habit of using other people moorings, yet I can't say I have never done it. In the couple times I have, it's been for a short time, I never left the boat and I expected to be gone in a flash if needed.

Some people get a tweeked about others pulling their front tires into a driveway while making a three point turn around. They will put up signs or line their driveway with orange cones. Never seemed to bother me if someone turns around on what probably amounts to an easement of public land anyway. I guess it's personal preference.

And actually Fallard, if you where kayaking through my mooring field I'd tell you where the beer is hidden 

At least where I live, I can't rent, sell, or even will my mooring permit. When I die I guess my next of kin can haul that old mushroom anchor and chain up and sell it for scrap if they wanted. In the mean time I'm just borrowing a bit of public property for what amounts to a tiny sliver of time on the face of the cosmic clock.

Life's to short to sweat it. But again, be ready to high tale it if I get home and want to tie up.


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## downeast450 (Jan 16, 2008)

It is not frowned upon to pick up a mooring willing to risk its integrity and prepared to move if the owner returns. It should be sort of an unplanned option when things don't work out the way you intended. If the transient moorings are all full, there is really no room in the anchorage, the weather or someone's health made an unscheduled stop necessary, etc. I have never felt that sailors or power boaters abuse mooring rights anywhere I have had my gear down. If you pull into a Downeast harbor, like Cutler, which is along a fairly remote stretch of the coast, asking someone at the dock about moorings has always resulted in a fisherman letting me know which moorings will hold my boat and who is out fishing for a few days, with a very welcoming, "glad it is getting some use", attitude. An offer to pay is out of the question. I have never needed a mooring in Portland and can imagine things are a bit different. Destinations like Northeast Harbor get so much traffic it is understood that you have a plan. Emergencies are always accommodated.

Down


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Brent Swain said:


> When your ball threatens to foul my anchor, and leaves inadequate swinging room to avoid it, I will use it anytime I please,. If some one comes back in daylight, in god weather, and wants his mooring back I will leave and find anther .At 3 am. I will not.
> Who do you ask if there is no phone number on it and no payphone for miles?


Sure you would, big man. I bet you put your tail between your legs the moment you find that was a fishing or lobstermans mooring you are squatting on.

You would learn it was theirs at 3am with them standing over your bunk. They make their own rules and set their own punishments for violating them.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

Minnewaska said:


> Sure you would, big man. I bet you put your tail between your legs the moment you find that was a fishing or lobstermans mooring you are squatting on.
> 
> You would learn it was theirs at 3am with them standing over your bunk. They make their own rules and set their own punishments for violating them.


I'd pay to see that one... People have been arrested for illegal tress pass for what amounts to stealing the use of a mooring. Have also been prosecuted for theft of services when marina's who use these moorings get boaters who don't pay.. These instances are pretty rare and usually precipitated by attitudes like are shown above...

In the US the States have the rights to the submerged shore land waters and the State gives the power to each town with waterfront to manage it. The Submerged Land Act of 1953 gave the States control of their coastal waters and seabeds. This means it gets complicated when you have 50 states and thousands of towns who manage moorings and their use.

Here in Maine nearly everything is done with moorings. If I had to put a number on it I'd guess that more than 90% of the boats on this coast reside on moorings most all of which are permitted by local towns. Where towns don't manage it they pass the buck to the ACOE for permitting.

With 3000 islands on the coast of Maine we have entire towns who depend on moorings as the lifeblood of their connection to the mainland. Take one of these moorings and pull "attitude" and you're likely to wind up with a few grams of lead in you. Islanders have shot folks for much less.....

Many harbors in the NE have waiting lists and steep annual fees (Falmouth, ME the largest mooring field is $250.00 per year for non-resident + your own gear). I've been on the wait list for Rye Harbor since I was 11 when my mother let both of our family moorings go over a "divorce" pissing match. Unfortunately one of them was MINE, not my fathers... I doubt I will ever get that mooring back in my lifetime. The fees for these moorings are on-top of an annual or bi-annual inspection and mandatory winterization of your gear. It costs me $450.00 per year, on average, to keep my mooring up to snuff in Falmouth and I already own the gear.

The mooring in-front of our home conveyed with "rights" on the deed to our home. We have the "right" to have and keep this mooring as long as we want. This type of stuff is commonplace here in Maine a coast where moorings mean livelihoods and more. We also own to the MLW mark not the MHW mark and this is part of our State constitution. It has been challenged twice and both times failed. This means the beach in front of our home is private to the mean low water making it truly private not just quasi private... Each State does it differently. Maine is quite unique in waterfront dealings..

On top of all that in Falmouth you can non sublet or let someone else use your mooring ball. The harbor master checks regularly. So if a transient grabs my mooring while I am away there is a good chance you'll see an all black RIB with twin 250 HP motors and blue lights coming to pay you a visit before I even get back..

Course you can always do what I did when we lived over in Harpswell and had trouble with people grabbing our ball when we were off sailing.
*
20 LB MUSHROOM - CAUTION OLD CHAIN*

That stopped just about everyone from grabbing our ball...


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## blutoyz (Oct 28, 2012)

Brent Swain said:


> When your ball threatens to foul my anchor, and leaves inadequate swinging room to avoid it, I will use it anytime I please,. If some one comes back in daylight, in god weather, and wants his mooring back I will leave and find anther .At 3 am. I will not.
> Who do you ask if there is no phone number on it and no payphone for miles?


LOL...you should avoid RI sailing with that attitude, you will be fast asleep as you drift away


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I was at the Isle Au Haut in Maine a couple of summers back and the transient moorings all had bottles tied to them, where the cruising guide said you were to leave $20. Mine did not have a bottle, so we went ashore to try to find who to pay. The store was closed and there was not a soul near the docks. 

I went back to the mooring, tied my own gatorade bottle to the mooring and left the $20 inside.

I've been on moorings over my lifetime, where no one ever came to collect the fee. In every instance, I made an effort to find them and only left without paying, if that effort failed.


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## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

Maine Sail said:


> This means the beach in front of our home is private to the mean low water making it truly private not just quasi private... Each State does it differently. Maine is quite unique in waterfront dealings.


I don't think that's quite right. My understanding is that the public is granted an easement to the area between low and high water mark (intertidal land) for certain activities. (I had an occasion to research this issue in another state and reviewed some cases from Maine.)


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

caberg said:


> I don't think that's quite right. My understanding is that the public is granted an easement to the area between low and high water mark (intertidal land) for certain activities. (I had an occasion to research this issue in another state and reviewed some cases from Maine.)


Yes for fishing, fowling & navigation, however in most cases you'd need to reach the intertidal zone by boat or be trespassing to get your access.. The use of the intertidal zone does not convey for sunbathing or general beach/intertidal zone use unless you are navigating, duck/bird hunting or fishing, clamming, worm digging etc....

In 1989, the Maine Supreme Court upheld the lower court ruling and found that:

In Maine, public rights in privately owned tidelands are limited only to those specifically enumerated in the 1647 Colonial Ordinance; that is, fishing, fowling, and navigation.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Maine Sail said:


> Yes for fishing, fowling & navigation, however in most cases you'd need to reach the intertidal zone by boat or be trespassing to get your access.....


How do you navigate on the intertidal zone? Portage?


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## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

Maine Sail said:


> Yes for fishing, fowling & navigation, however in most cases you'd need to reach the intertidal zone by boat or be trespassing to get your access.. The use of the intertidal zone does not convey for sunbathing or general beach/intertidal zone use unless you are navigating, duck/bird hunting or fishing, clamming, worm digging etc....
> 
> In 1989, the Maine Supreme Court upheld the lower court ruling and found that:
> 
> In Maine, public rights in privately owned tidelands are limited only to those specifically enumerated in the 1647 Colonial Ordinance; that is, fishing, fowling, and navigation.


Wells Beach if I recall correctly.


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## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

Minnewaska said:


> How do you navigate on the intertidal zone? Portage?


Well, if the tide is in, by boat. If the tide is out, you can land by boat and walk across it.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

Minnewaska said:


> How do you navigate on the intertidal zone? Portage?


It means drying out a boat, getting there by boat for clamming, worm digging etc. or by shuttling people to and fro an island and ferrying them to the beach. It can also mean pulling up on a beach to enact a repair to your boat...


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

caberg said:


> Well, if the tide is in, by boat. If the tide is out, you can land by boat and walk across it.


I understand when the tide is in, as you would have the right to float over their land. However, if its out, I can't see that walking is navigating, unless you are carrying your boat. Perhaps it was only intended to cover the land while flooded and does not contemplate that you would be out of your boat for any of these activities?


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

caberg said:


> Wells Beach if I recall correctly.


Yes that was the "Moody Beach" case... At the same time that was going on our neighborhood was in a similar case, which was subsequently dropped when the Moody case was handed down..

Like I said Maine is unique in its water front dealings....


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## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

Minnewaska said:


> I understand when the tide is in, as you would have the right to float over their land. However, if its out, I can't see that walking is navigating, unless you are carrying your boat. Perhaps it was only intended to cover the land while flooded and does not contemplate that you would be out of your boat for any of these activities?


I think the case specifically references landing a boat (when the tide is out) and walking in the intertidal area, so either "navigating" isn't read so narrowly, or walking is considered incidental and necessary to the allowable uses.


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## Coquina (Dec 27, 2012)

My mooring buoy has my phone number on it. I am happy to loan it out if you ASK, but if I find you on there and I need it you are leaving pronto. The *PRIVATE* and *COQUINA *and my number are a clue it is not yours. I spent over $1,000 on the gear and it is not a public utility. 
So far in Maryland most people only have ONE mooring. Apparently New England has people putting them everywhere they go and taking up all the room - not sure what I would think about that. Our bigger issue is moorings that appear to be owned by no one and are of uncertain maintenance at best. We have some near mine that have not been used in at least half a decade and I wouldn't trust to hold an Optimist. I may do some SCUBA inspection and see about removing the obviously dangerous ones.


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## delite (Nov 2, 2009)

BC does not regulate private moorings, Transport Canada does (http://www.for.gov.bc.ca/land_tenure...te_moorage.pdf point 1 on page 4)

Here is what Transport Canada has to say:
7.1 The placement of a single point mooring buoy by a proponent will not require the submission of an application for approval under the provisions of the NWPA (Navigable Waterways Protection Act) subject to meeting the criteria specified in Annex "A"

Annex A
The placement of a single mooring buoy meeting the following criteria will not require further review by the Navigable Waters Protection Program and the project may proceed.

The mooring buoy must be:

Secured by a single anchor line,
Marked as per An Owners' Guide to Private Buoys 8.4

The mooring buoy including swing area must be:
Placed no less than 20 meters from any existing docks, boathouses, swim platforms, other mooring buoy or other structure located within limits of waterway,

Placed at least 50 meters from any public launch ramp, marina, known navigation channel

AND:
Where free swinging moorings are utilized, they shall require a circular area having a radius equal to three (3) times the length of the vessel
Moored vessels must comply with the Collision Regulations.

Mooring Buoys - Transport Canada

In other words private moorings are legal in BC and you have no right to make use of them.


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

before getting into a private mooring situation, research the moorings and comply with rulings made for boats using these moorings. 
in san diego, rafting is a punishable offense--punishment is eviction from mooring. all moorings are sdmc operated and owned by sd port authority. many are rough water mooorings. not cool to raft--makes damage. is also most uncool to just pick up a mooring in sd--they are occupied and have a long wait list.


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## Agri (Dec 5, 2011)

delite said:


> BC does not regulate private moorings, Transport Canada does (http://www.for.gov.bc.ca/land_tenure...te_moorage.pdf point 1 on page 4)
> 
> Here is what Transport Canada has to say:
> 7.1 The placement of a single point mooring buoy by a proponent will not require the submission of an application for approval under the provisions of the NWPA (Navigable Waterways Protection Act) subject to meeting the criteria specified in Annex "A"
> ...


The thing to keep in mind is that they have to be marked. As far as I'm concerned if they are not marked and there is no boat on them, its open season, use at your risk.

Sent from my GT-P6210 using Tapatalk 2


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## delite (Nov 2, 2009)

Agri said:


> The thing to keep in mind is that they have to be marked. As far as I'm concerned if they are not marked and there is no boat on them, its open season, use at your risk.
> 
> Sent from my GT-P6210 using Tapatalk 2


You can rationalize your tresspass anyway you want but legally you will be the one with a problem. Maybe you and Brent can get together and make up some more laws that will suit your purposes.


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## downeast450 (Jan 16, 2008)

It is the rare mariner who makes it Downeast that needs a "dope slap". We do know how but generally find that kind of stupidity gets filtered by the journey. I suspect it is a mistake not repeated and a lack of appreciation for the things that make being on the water worth the effort. "The Principle of Natural Selection" works on many levels.

Down


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## Coquina (Dec 27, 2012)

If you pick some random unmarked mooring, you risk:
1 - It is 30 years old and hanging by a thread
2 - It was designed to hold a 12 foot dinghy
3 - The owner may have a more direct way of dealing with trespassers than you might like
4 - If you LEAVE the boat to go ashore for any reason and the owner comes back, your boat might be hard to find



Agri said:


> The thing to keep in mind is that they have to be marked. As far as I'm concerned if they are not marked and there is no boat on them, its open season, use at your risk.
> 
> Sent from my GT-P6210 using Tapatalk 2


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## Agri (Dec 5, 2011)

delite said:


> You can rationalize your tresspass anyway you want but legally you will be the one with a problem. Maybe you and Brent can get together and make up some more laws that will suit your purposes.


If its not marked how do they prove its their's?

Sent from my GT-P6210 using Tapatalk 2


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

I've seen 2 mooring floats drift off on their own in my mooring field during the past 2 years. They were obviously not being maintained and hadn't had a boat on them for at least 2 years.

One time, I had spent several hours locating a mooring that had lost its winter float (vandalism) and marked it with a lobster buoy anchored in the mud with a 4# sash weight. Before I got back with a new pennant and the summer buoy, someone in a Boston Whaler had picked up my "mooring"-- and was drifting off as I yelled to him.

So, as others have said, you may regret picking up a private mooring. Furthermore, you may damage tackle that was in process of being replaced, making it all the more difficult for the owner.


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## downeast450 (Jan 16, 2008)

A basic rule followed by honest, respectful people is, "If it is not yours, leave it alone." If you can't deploy an anchor stay of the water. Because a mooring isn't "marked" makes it available is the kind of scary rationalization making lots of our freedoms feel at risk. If it is there it belongs to someone!

I leave my oars in my Avon. I leave the keys in my car (not the ignition). I don't lock the doors on my houses unless I am leaving for weeks and then leave a key under the mat. Am I inviting trouble? Not so far. Will someone steal my stuff? I hope not. There isn't much worth the effort. I have earned the respect I need from people who know me. I guess I live in a fairly safe part of the country. If you pick up my mooring we will talk.

Down

The only problems I have are bears in the hives and racoons in the corn. The deer in the gardens end up in the freezer.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Agri said:


> If its not marked how do they prove its their's?
> 
> Sent from my GT-P6210 using Tapatalk 2


They dont have to....we know its not yours


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## Coquina (Dec 27, 2012)

Chances are everyone in that community has seen their boat on it for years and both they and you know *YOU* didn't put it down 

BTW - This spring I saw two boats that had taken over "abandoned" moorings in Weems Creek the previous fall on the beach with the mooring buoy and a rusted through chain still attached 
If it really is no longer used and free for the taking, there just might be a reason!



Agri said:


> If its not marked how do they prove its their's?
> 
> Sent from my GT-P6210 using Tapatalk 2


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## blutoyz (Oct 28, 2012)

Agri said:


> If its not marked how do they prove its their's?
> 
> Sent from my GT-P6210 using Tapatalk 2


Why would they need to?


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## seascene (Oct 24, 2012)

Given a small anchorage, does the presence of boatless mooring bouys mean that this anchorage should be conceded to these owners? I prefer to anchor and not risk a faulty bouy. I have anchored in this situation before and my drift was within a few meters of the vacant bouys. A tie up by an owner would result in collision in this situation. I am assuming that the onus would be on the bouy owner to find an alternative until I leave next morning?


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

seascene said:


> Given a small anchorage, does the presence of boatless mooring bouys mean that this anchorage should be conceded to these owners? I prefer to anchor and not risk a faulty bouy. I have anchored in this situation before and my drift was within a few meters of the vacant bouys. A tie up by an owner would result in collision in this situation. I am assuming that the onus would be on the bouy owner to find an alternative until I leave next morning?


Interesting and plausible scenario.. I guess it would depend on local regs wrt whether or not the buoy owner also has a waterlot lease (ie 'ownership' of the water space around the buoy) I suspect that often this will not be the case.


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

seascene said:


> Given a small anchorage, does the presence of boatless mooring bouys mean that this anchorage should be conceded to these owners? I prefer to anchor and not risk a faulty bouy. I have anchored in this situation before and my drift was within a few meters of the vacant bouys. A tie up by an owner would result in collision in this situation. I am assuming that the onus would be on the bouy owner to find an alternative until I leave next morning?


the situation you describe is one in which the anchorer gets to relocate to a different place, as the owner of the mooring has priority. i know if it was my mooring someone anchored next to , i would squawk loudly and have the offender physically removed as i pay rent(has clout) and the intruder doesnt(no clout)--he has no foot to stand on in this case. in sd, is illegal to anchor in a mooring field as much damage to under water gear can occur with anchoring over these moorings. would be smart to either discuss situation with the area in which you desire to anchor, or anchor elsewhere. could be a lot of dough to un-impound your boat ----


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## Coquina (Dec 27, 2012)

I would be more than irate to find someone anchored so close to my mooring I could not use it. They WOULD be moving one way or the other.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

The law seems unclear or unwritten on this in most cases. Common decency suggests that you not use someone else property, nor interfere with its use. (unless an emergency)

I just don't tune in to the "I'm entitle to this or that logic". Pass a law and I'll step aside. Otherwise, we have a problem if you're using or interfering with my mooring and I would support another in protecting theirs.


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## Agri (Dec 5, 2011)

downeast450 said:


> A basic rule followed by honest, respectful people is, "If it is not yours, leave it alone." If you can't deploy an anchor stay of the water. Because a mooring isn't "marked" makes it available is the kind of scary rationalization making lots of our freedoms feel at risk. If it is there it belongs to someone!
> 
> I leave my oars in my Avon. I leave the keys in my car (not the ignition). I don't lock the doors on my houses unless I am leaving for weeks and then leave a key under the mat. Am I inviting trouble? Not so far. Will someone steal my stuff? I hope not. There isn't much worth the effort. I have earned the respect I need from people who know me. I guess I live in a fairly safe part of the country. If you pick up my mooring we will talk.
> 
> ...


I guess my reasoning does have some holes in it. I never considered the fact that I quite often leave my dinghy, which has no markings on it' at the dock unattended.

My personal mooring is very well marked, and I don't use other peoples moorings regardless of if they are marked or not.

I didn't, explain my original statement/thoughts very well. I was thinking along the lines of someone arriving at an anchorage very late at night, finding it to be full. This person sees a few empty moorings in between all the boats, motors over, sees that there are no numbers or any identification on them. In this situation if said skipper feels that the safest option is to tie up to the mooring, why not. I'm not arguing that he can claim ownership of the mooring until the end of time, but in that situation I see no issue with him using the mooring. At the same time he would also assume all risks/liability assotiated with using a mooring of indeterminate quality.

My ideas on this is influenced by the fact that here in BC there is no liscencing/approval needed to put a mooring down.
I currently have a mooring in Cowichan Bay. Its what allows me to afford my boat. At the same time Cowichan Bay is an anchorage that in my opinion is being/has been over run by moorings. Quite a few of these moorings sit empty, permanently. On two mooring other then mine, I have seen numbers to call to use the mooring if they are not in use at the moment. The rest of the moorings that sit empty are effectively denying that space to anyone else.

I feel that because moorings are essentially free to place in BC and it in essences lets you claim a piece of public space for yourself at zero cost and no benefit to the public at large they should be considered a shared resource, with the person who provided the resources to set up the mooring getting first dibbs, and if they are not currently using it anyone else who comes along can do so at their own risk.

Sent from my GT-P6210 using Tapatalk 2


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

When I asked the govt for a map of private water leases for moorings, they said "We dont give leases for private moorings."
So the seabed is public property for the use of everyone and putting out a mooring doesn't mean you have ownership or first use of it.
Climbing over someone's rail to physically dispute someone on your mooring, makes you a sitting duck, with both hands occupied.


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

If someone picks up a private mooring and the tackle fails--let's say it was due to be replaced but the owner hadn't gotten to it--do you really think that the interloper is going to do the right thing by locating the owner, returning his float, and then locating his "lost" mushroom for him?

Picking up an unknown mooring--except in an emergency--is simply irresponsible.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

fallard said:


> If someone picks up a private mooring and the tackle fails--let's say it was due to be replaced but the owner hadn't gotten to it--do you really think that the interloper is going to do the right thing by locating the owner, returning his float, and then locating his "lost" mushroom for him?
> 
> Picking up an unknown mooring--except in an emergency--is simply irresponsible.


If the tackle fails, you did the owner a favour , by making sure it failed while his boat was not on it while he was ashore. A good shot of reverse gives it a good test.
Allowing greedy people to take over public anchorages unchallenged, barring others from using what is a public asset, is simply irresponsible.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

> Picking up an unknown mooring--except in an emergency--is simply irresponsible.


Agree with this and practice the same... but..

It would be great to 'know' that some unoccupied buoys might be fair game under certain circumstances, esp here in BC where popular parks and bays fill up quickly and some of them do have unmarked buoys that are often otherwise unoccupied too.

But there's still the issue of whether or not the ground tackle is up to the job of holding YOUR boat, esp if some weather is on the way.

I also avoid anchoring amongst a field of buoys not only for fear of infringing on a buoy's usability, but also you just can't know how these various floaters are anchored, how much scope they may or may not have, seems to me the odds of snagging some part of the anchoring system(s) with your own tackle are pretty high. Who needs the grief?


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

I once fouled a mooring anchor with no buoy attached , in a popular anchorage. It was a concrete filled plastic container with bits of steel pointing out of it. I tied it to my bow, untangled my anchor from it, then sunk it in over 400 feet of water.


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## KIVALO (Nov 2, 2011)

Brent Swain said:


> When I asked the govt for a map of private water leases for moorings, they said "We dont give leases for private moorings."
> *So the seabed is public property for the use of everyone and putting out a mooring doesn't mean you have ownership or first use of it.*
> Climbing over someone's rail to physically dispute someone on your mooring, makes you a sitting duck, with both hands occupied.


If I put out a ball, chain, permanent mooring etc.. assuming I paid for them all I do, in fact, own them. However I do not own the water-space or real estate my "anchor" sits on. Correct?

Assume for the moment I do own them, does leaving them in an area that is otherwise public mean no one else can use it? For instance, when hunting, and you leave your tree stand/blind on public land just because its yours doesn't mean your the only one who can use it. Etiquette dictates you shouldn't but the law says you may.

Confusing issue for sure.

Brad
s/v KIVALO


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

Does putting a mooring in a one boat bay mean only you can use that bay? The law says no.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

So that marina over there is in a spot I want to use. I should be able to tie up for free right? Why can't I take anyone's slip I please.? I mean after all we all own the water how can that marina be taking up such a prime piece of underwater real estate....? How can that fisherman place his trap there what if I want to anchor there and he is "impeding my right to navigation".....

*Fact:* Transport Canada issues mooring permits TP 13585 E . Some moorings don't even require the approval of the "Minister" (moorings that fall under Annex A) moorings that fall under Annex B would require the full approval process. If you don't like this fact take it up with your government and get them to stop issuing or allowing these moorings.

Taking the "law" into your own hands or being a vigilante is wrong in any country. These moorings, according to Transport Canada and numerous other Government resources, have a "legal" and Government sanctioned right to be there, if the rules are followed.

Whether one likes this or not is beside the point because it IS supported by the Canadian Government. Just like here in the US if you don't like it, talk to your representatives and get the laws changed. Why so many feel the need to become a Vigilante when they disagree with the laws of their own country is always amusing behavior to me..

Another point I came across are that some Provinces have granted leases to the submerged lands or ceded control to local governments so the law in Canada seems not a lot more "cut & dry" than it is here in the US. Here we have 50 states and thousands of towns where the submerged lands regulations can be different.... The submerged lands in the US are under each states control and the states usually cede control to the local towns to manage at their discretion. NH is one of the few states that does a large part of the submerged lands management from the state level. Course they only have a few miles of coastline to manage.

The laws in Canada, while different, still allow for "moorings". If you don't like that fight to change it LEGALLY not as a VIGILANTE....


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Our yacht club has a long standing 'water lot lease' that essentially means we have control over the waterlot that the docks and slips occupy. AFAIK that's a requirement for any kind of structure, even a float home, for example.. but possible mooring permits and/or rules for marking the buoys that are laid are all that's required for a buoy..

That's not to say that there aren't plenty of floating 'camps' anchored in remote inlets without proper leases in place.... foreshore or waterlot...


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

KIVALO said:


> If I put out a ball, chain, permanent mooring etc.. assuming I paid for them all I do, in fact, own them. However I do not own the water-space or real estate my "anchor" sits on. Correct?
> 
> Assume for the moment I do own them, does leaving them in an area that is otherwise public mean no one else can use it? For instance, when hunting, and you leave your tree stand/blind on public land just because its yours doesn't mean your the only one who can use it. Etiquette dictates you shouldn't but the law says you may.
> 
> ...


 Whats confusing about it, it seems simple to me...lets substitute the name of your boat for the mooring apparatus.

If I anchor KIVALO... I paid for her in fact, own Her. However I do not own the water-space or real estate my "anchor" sits on.
Correct
Assume for the moment I do own KIVALO, does leaving them in an area that is otherwise public mean no one else can use it? For instance, when hunting, and you leave your tree stand/blind on public land just because its yours doesn't mean your the only one who can use

So do you find it confusing if you anchor your boat and I came along and decided to hang out on it. Would that disturb you?

The answer is self evident I think.

Dave


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## KIVALO (Nov 2, 2011)

chef2sail said:


> Whats confusing about it, it seems simple to me...lets sumstitute the name of your boat for the mooring apparatus.
> 
> If I anchor KIVALO... I paid for her in fact, own Her. However I do not own the water-space or real estate my "anchor" sits on.
> Correct
> ...


You make a good point however I think I can counter it. You don't own the parking lot yet no one is allowed to enter your car without your permission.


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## jrd22 (Nov 14, 2000)

Lots of different regs in different parts of the USA and Canada. Here in the PNW people are supposed to get a permit for a buoy but it seems like less than 50% do. I don't tie up to buoys (although I would in an emergency) because I don't agree with using someones property without permission. Even if I had no qualms about it I still wouldn't use a buoy I didn't know anything about because I wouldn't sleep all night anyway so what's the point? In the little bay in front of our place (we have a buoy) there were 12 buoys in September (2011), there were 4 left in May, they all drifted away at some point during the winter with NO BOATS tied to them. I watch boats come in and tie up to ours, and others, all the time and just shake my head (no, I don't row out and tell them to move, but I would if I knew it to be unsafe).


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## downeast450 (Jan 16, 2008)

Agri said:


> My personal mooring is very well marked, and I don't use other peoples moorings regardless of if they are marked or not.


As it should be with some common sense exceptions. There are places along the Maine coast with "transient" moorings placed by people who like to stop and enjoy anchorages but don't use them as their primary mooring. There is a SHYC (Seal Harbor Yacht Club) mooring in the anchorage at Baker Island. It is labeled SHYC. It is often used by non members. No one really cares. If it is empty, pick it up. If not drop your hook. There are unmarked balls in locations that would not be permanent locations by virtue of their remoteness. We know the moorings. We stop and have lunch. Might even spend the night if no one shows up by 4:00 pm. We also know when we are entering a mooring field that is home port for private moorings. Those are marked and obviously were put there to provide a home for their owner. No one will object to finding a boat safely tied to their mooring if the party using the spot is available and appreciative enough to say, "Thanks", then move if necessary. I have made some friends by extending their stay because I was tied up someplace else. Friendly, responsible, appreciative mariners are welcome. If you insist that you have a right to my mooring because it was empty when you arrived, we may have a disagreement. I haven't met that dope yet. #228 in SH is rated for a 40' boat. It is inspected and the lines have double chafing gear. It is a double bridle. The location is exposed enough to provide a bit of sea motion over night if it is blowing from the south. There are several balls labeled SHYC in the harbor, too that you can use. Just stop at the yacht club, tell them you were my guest and pay the $20.00 (I think?). There is plenty of depth at the dock to pull along side.

Come down and visit. There are much better places to spend the night than in Seal Harbor. I almost never sleep aboard at my mooring but move to a nearby anchorage if I want a "night out".

Down


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## Agri (Dec 5, 2011)

Maine Sail said:


> So that marina over there is in a spot I want to use... *Fact:* Transport Canada issues mooring permits TP 13585 E . Some moorings don't even require the approval of the "Minister" (moorings that fall under Annex A) moorings that fall under Annex B would require the full approval process. These moorings, according to Transport Canada and numerous other Government resources, have a "legal" and Government sanctioned right to be there, if the rules are followed


The marina will have a water lease so therefore has a right to be there. You will also notice in both of my posts I mentioned unmarked moorings which legally have no right to be there. I'm not advocating any kind of vigilante justice, just a more of what I see as a common sense/help out your neighbor approach. I will concede that my views on property rights and owner ship differ from a lot of peoples but that is a subject for a different forum.

I stand by my original statement, if the mooring is unmarked and unused and you feel safe using it, use it.

Sent from my GT-P6210 using Tapatalk 2


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Its seems the objection and resultant sense of entitlement to use another's property, has to do with the permanency of a placed mooring. No one believes you can use my car, because I temporarily left it in a public parking lot, or my bicycle because its on a public rack. But some believe you can use my mooring? I might even support a regulation that only allowed one to be placed for a defined period or that requires the owner to actually lease the land (seabed) that it is on. However, you have no right to use it, just because such a regulation doesn't exist.


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## okawbow (Feb 15, 2007)

On a cruise of the East coast last year; my wife and I had several problems with moorings. We were unfamiliar with the areas, and went by our charts to locate safe anchoring areas. Many times, we arrived at a marked "anchorage", only to find it completely taken over by mooring balls. There was little or no room left for safe anchoring, and we sometimes ended up having to anchor in poor holding or deep areas. Many of the moorings were obviously rarely or never used. 

I started anchoring in the mooring field when there was no other choice, but only used a mooring once in a remote bay, because there was no safe anchorage nearby, and it was nearly dark. 

I think provisions should be made for safe anchoring in historical "anchorages".


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

okawbow said:


> I think provisions should be made for safe anchoring in historical "anchorages".


It's a bit better lately, but around here we 'lost' a lot of decent anchorages, esp the one-or-two-boat coves to fish farms. Many have moved on but I wonder about what's on the bottom after they leave.

We also have a lot of historical boom grounds, now abandoned but it's always a crapshoot dropping a hook in those areas.. you could easily end up hooked on an old chain, a 100' length of steel cable, and old winch bed....


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

KIVALO said:


> You make a good point however I think I can counter it. You don't own the parking lot yet no one is allowed to enter your car without your permission.


Right.

So there are two ways of looking at it.
1- I put my own mooring down in public water in MD where there isnt ownership by a government entity ( say a town like in Maine). I dont own the water like you said ( I dont own the public parking lot), but I do own the mooring ( my car). What right do you have to use it? You can anchor where you want, but the morring ( my car ) is my property

2-Mooring is put down by me in a governement controlled water area, ( town in Maine for example). You dont agree with the fact that governments should be allowed to regulate the free water and do that. I actually understand that argument and think they should provide for at least some free anchor space and when it gets full its over. What right do you have to use my mooring ( my car)? There are legal ways to disagree with the town which stipulated the moorings, and if you lose. you lose.You see situations like this all the time . In DC the stadium is in a regular neighborhood. On game days no one in the neighborhood can find a place to park. They instituted resident zone parking where only residents are able to park. The streets are free to use, but parking is only for residents, or in public parking lots

Main thing here is that the mooring is my property. If I give permission you can use it. In an emergency I understand. All other times...it is mine. Ipaid for it...you should stand clear.


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## KIVALO (Nov 2, 2011)

chef2sail said:


> Right.
> 
> So there are two ways of looking at it.
> 1- I put my own mooring down in public water in MD where there isnt ownership by a government entity ( say a town like in Maine). I dont own the water like you said ( I dont own the public parking lot), but I do own the mooring ( my car). What right do you have to use it? You can anchor where you want, but the morring ( my car ) is my property
> ...


I think you may be under the impression I am advocating one way or another. I'm not, I'm asking a question of the group.

It would seem the answer, legally speaking, will depend on what the local laws are. No?


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## jrd22 (Nov 14, 2000)

Faster said:


> ... to fish farms. Many have moved on but I wonder about what's on the bottom after they leave.


Roger that Fast. Based on what they leave on shore I can only imagine what would happen if I anchored. We were in (well almost in) Adventure Cove (historic cove where Capt. Gray wintered and built a small ship) by Tofino last year and the remains of a fish farm littered half the bay and shore. We had to anchor in the entrance to the bay to stay away from all the gear. Herriot Bay inner harbor was the same.


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## Coyo7e (Feb 24, 2011)

There are plenty of rules governing moorings, probably even in Maryland, so the thought experiment below may or may not be realistic depending on jurisdiction, but I think it gets to the heart of the matter:

Chef's pretty adamant that he owns the mooring but not the swing radius. Ok, fine. So in retaliation for his appropriation of public waters that I want to anchor in, but cannot, I'm going to place a mooring _10 feet_ from his at a time when his boat is absent.

My mooring in this scenario is legal, but Chef is denied use of his.

Now what?


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

Brent Swain said:


> If the tackle fails, you did the owner a favour , by making sure it failed while his boat was not on it while he was ashore. A good shot of reverse gives it a good test.
> Allowing greedy people to take over public anchorages unchallenged, barring others from using what is a public asset, is simply irresponsible.


Brent is entitled to his opinion, but the notion that destructively testing someone else's property is a favor does not make sense to me.

In our area, mooring locations are adjudicated by a State-appointed Harbormaster with due consideration of a number of factors. Allowing anchoring within a mooring field at individual discretion is illogical.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

KIVALO said:


> I think you may be under the impression I am advocating one way or another. I'm not, I'm asking a question of the group.
> 
> It would seem the answer, legally speaking, will depend on what the local laws are. No?


Whether the mooring is legal will depend on the local laws.

Whether you use personal property at your will...nope

You can anchor where you want, You cant confiscate personal property


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Coyo7e said:


> There are plenty of rules governing moorings, probably even in Maryland, so the thought experiment below may or may not be realistic depending on jurisdiction, but I think it gets to the heart of the matter:
> 
> Chef's pretty adamant that he owns the mooring but not the swing radius. Ok, fine. So in retaliation for his appropriation of public waters that I want to anchor in, but cannot, I'm going to place a mooring _10 feet_ from his at a time when his boat is absent.
> 
> ...


Good point, I would imagine we both cant be on the mooring on the same time, since they are so close, so whoever is there first gets it.

BTW Thats usually not an acceptable risk for most and is the reason why when you think about that reasoning it isnt used used or done. Why put your mooring so close to mine when if I am attached to mine yours becomes unusable. Thats why people keep them boat lengths apart in the real world. Nice hypothetic, but fails the real world test of logic.

If you do it, Thats a risk you or I will take. You still cant use my mooring tackle.
(Ill make sure to leave a dinghy attached to the mooring from now on.)


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## ltgoshen (Jan 5, 2009)

Bushwacker from St Thomas.
2 oz Baileys Irish Cream
1 oz Amaretto
1 oz Kahlua
small splash Vodka
small splash Grand Marnier
sprinkling Nutmeg
lots Ice
Fill blender 3/4 with ice (small cubes best).
Add a small splash of vodka, a small splash of Grand Marnier.
Add Kahlua & Amarreto. Fill the blender with Bailey's until liquid is 1/2 inch from top of ice cubes.Mix until smooth. Pour in hurricane glass and sprinkle some nutmeg on top!


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

Let's look at some of the pros of moorings:

1.They are a cheaper alternative for those of us who may not be able to afford a slip.
2. They actually open up more public access to the water, imagine if all of us on moorings suddenly needed a slip.
3. In busy anchorages they are better for the ecosystem of the sea floor.
4. In busy anchorages they allow for more boats with less swing room. Imagine if those moorings suddenly changed over to anchors, there would be even less room available.
5. A well maintained mooring is safer than an anchor.

The cons of moorings so far:
1. Transients who prefer to anchor are sometimes inconvenienced. They may even have to contribute a few dollars to the local economy.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Coyo7e said:


> .....I'm going to place a mooring _10 feet_ from his at a time when his boat is absent.
> 
> My mooring in this scenario is legal, but Chef is denied use of his.
> 
> Now what?


I know this is a hypothetical, but that would just make you a real jackwad.

In your scenario, you're not happy that Chef got to place a mooring, but presumably he hasn't violated any laws or regs. You're just not happy he beat you to it, so you go picking a fight. The civil approach is to see if the owner of the seabed (municipality) is willing to change the rules. If not, leave the moorings alone.


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## downeast450 (Jan 16, 2008)

Faster said:


> It's a bit better lately, but around here we 'lost' a lot of decent anchorages, esp the one-or-two-boat coves to fish farms. Many have moved on but I wonder about what's on the bottom after they leave.
> 
> We also have a lot of historical boom grounds, now abandoned but it's always a crapshoot dropping a hook in those areas.. you could easily end up hooked on an old chain, a 100' length of steel cable, and old winch bed....


The "boom grounds" we don't have. The aquaculture pens we do. Anything biologically active they leave behind doesn't last long. Their anchors? Good point. I haven't considered that bit of fairly recent debris. They are required to move their gear when they leave. I don't know how closely that gets monitored. I expect the scrutiny is fairly acute along this coast. If for no other reason than the salvage value. Lobstermen and scallop draggers won't put up with a blind hazard like that in fishable ground.

I have needed to move a lobster trap after unwrapping its float from my rudder at my mooring. Sometimes I shorten the float line a bit with a couple of carefully tied knots. The fishermen fish the harbor and set among the moorings. If I find one tangled up with me I move it using my Avon before going aboard TD. Those fishing grounds overlap the mooring field. The 10 minutes it takes me to sort it out isn't a big deal. It is often a young fisherman getting started in the business who also lives in the harbor. There is never a problem. They do a good job avoiding other people's stuff while they make their living.

Down


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## blutoyz (Oct 28, 2012)

This thread has degraded into redundant dribble because one or two individuals are rude enough to think that they can use someone's property without permission and then arrogant enough to try to defend it...foolishness.

Now I have to figure out how to unsubscribe...LOL


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## KIVALO (Nov 2, 2011)

chef2sail said:


> Whether the mooring is legal will depend on the local laws.
> 
> Whether you use personal property at your will...nope
> 
> You can anchor where you want, You cant confiscate personal property


Etiquette dictates you shouldn't but the law sometimes says different. Legality and morality aren't always intertwined.

I dont recall saying to confiscate anything. Use is not the same thing as confiscate. Also, I will say this again, I am not advocating anyone use anything that isn't theirs without permission. We are discussing the legality of it for everyone's knowledge and benefit. It's different from whats right or wrong, morally.


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## delite (Nov 2, 2009)

Brent Swain said:


> When I asked the govt for a map of private water leases for moorings, they said "We dont give leases for private moorings."
> So the seabed is public property for the use of everyone and putting out a mooring doesn't mean you have ownership or first use of it.
> Climbing over someone's rail to physically dispute someone on your mooring, makes you a sitting duck, with both hands occupied.


Of course that is what the BC government will tell you because the mooring is a federal responsibility. Just because the provincial govt doesnt give a water lease for a mooring does not make it public property. The rules for mooring anchors in BC are abundantly clear that they can be privately owned without a water lease. Being a dick about it doesnt change the law and asking the wrong question is no defense.


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## Coquina (Dec 27, 2012)

Remember - sailors and watermen are a community. If you decide to wreck someone's mooring by either vandalizing it or putting another one right next to it, you now have made enemies that have been there for longer and are there when you are not. You certainly would never be able to put a boat on it.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

As someone who would NOT consider using someone's mooring because it is not my property and added that it is a complete unknown quantity, IMO, there ought to be legally specified, equally good, free anchorage areas available for people who want to set a hook. I would like to see some lawsuits over damage incurred to boats because they were denied access to a safe anchorage packed with pay-for moorings. There must be other sailors like me who simply can't afford $40/night to sleep somewhere safe. Add it up, that's $1200/mo. while cruising---simply absurd for all but sailors with deep pockets. Municipalities need to back off hogging every square inch of good anchorage areas. I'm really surprised the USCG has permitted so much room to be glommed in "special anchorage" areas.


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## Coquina (Dec 27, 2012)

In Annapolis the holding ground is poor and the anchorage exposed. Prior to the municipal moorings any time a sudden wind or storm came up it was a Chinese fire drill of dragging boats hitting other boats and breaking them loose. Outside of Annapolis there is no place I can think of on the Bay without plenty of space to anchor for free. My mooring certainly does not block anyone from anchoring nearby.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Specific places may have limited anchorage locations. If one lives on their boat and has the freedom to move around, I find it hard to believe one couldn't find anyplace to anchor. I'm trying to think of a single mooring field in my sailing grounds, where I couldn't drop a hook just outside of it. For that matter, there are no fully safe anchorages, so I can't see how a law suit would have any merit.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Brent Swain said:


> If the tackle fails, you did the owner a favour , by making sure it failed while his boat was not on it while he was ashore. A good shot of reverse gives it a good test.
> Allowing greedy people to take over public anchorages unchallenged, barring others from using what is a public asset, is simply irresponsible.


It's not the individuals who set their own moorings who cause the problem. They will probably actually use them. It's yacht clubs and municipalities, often working hand in hand to block access to anyone not willing to fork over the fief. I don't think anyone really wants to use another's mooring or anchor so close that it makes the mooring unusable. The unused moorings that just seem to take up space are the issue. It seems like a problem in just certain places. Other spots have solved the issue by simply allocating space to anchor. A percentage of all anchorages should be allocated to anchoring and perhaps there should be a requirement that moorings be monitored by harbormasters so that moorings unused for X # of days in a season come off the count of legal moorings. Port Jeff harbor is another spot where there are so many moorings in back of the outer west bar that it has severely restricted anchoring in that popular spot. In the last few years, when stopping there, I have seen almost NO boats on those moorings.

Minne, I'm thinking of one: Inside the rocks at Fisher's Island. It used to be a great spot but is now completely filled with expensive-to-rent yacht club moorings. If you want to anchor there, you must go outside the rocks in open water which is untenable in a N-NW blow. Potter's Cove is another. If you want to anchor there, you have no choice but to crowd apparently unused mooring buoys.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

smurphny said:


> ...Minne, I'm thinking of one: Inside the rocks at Fisher's Island. It used to be a great spot but is now completely filled with expensive-to-rent yacht club moorings. If you want to anchor there, you must go outside the rocks in open water which is untenable in a N-NW blow. Potter's Cove is another. If you want to anchor there, you have no choice but to crowd apparently unused mooring buoys.


I know both places very well and anchored in both this past summer. The outside anchorages at both have great holding and are enormous. Both would hold 100 boats and you wouldn't know you had a neighbor. With prevailing SW winds,both are also well protected. Fisher's would be a rough ride in a northerly, but the inner harbor wouldn't be so great in a northerly either. Potters inner harbor is well protected, particularly the northern part, but its also very shallow in spots. I would prefer to be outside. If winds at Potters are out of the north to east, then run around to the other side of the island and anchor in Jenny Cove instead. BTDT. Great holding too.


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## Agri (Dec 5, 2011)

seascene said:


> I cruise BC waters. In southern waters mooring bouys are ever increasing. This is a "what if"... you enter an anchorage and your only option is a lone mooring bouy available and you take it. What happens if the owner of the bouy arrives 03:00 knocks on your hull and asks you to leave?
> 
> ... thanks...


Is the issue any less murky for you yet?

Sent from my GT-P6210 using Tapatalk 2


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> I know both places very well and anchored in both this past summer. The outside anchorages at both have great holding and are enormous. Both would hold 100 boats and you wouldn't know you had a neighbor. With prevailing SW winds,both are also well protected. Fisher's would be a rough ride in a northerly, but the inner harbor wouldn't be so great in a northerly either. Potters inner harbor is well protected, particularly the northern part, but its also very shallow in spots. I would prefer to be outside. If winds at Potters are out of the north to east, then run around to the other side of the island and anchor in Jenny Cove instead. BTDT. Great holding too.


We anchored outside of Potters Cove last summer...had no issues with a SW wind. Ill tell you however just acroos in Stonington there was no room to anchor with their huge morring field unless you stayed outside at the breakwater exposed. We took a mooring there.

dave


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Minnewaska said:


> I know both places very well and anchored in both this past summer. The outside anchorages at both have great holding and are enormous. Both would hold 100 boats and you wouldn't know you had a neighbor. With prevailing SW winds,both are also well protected. Fisher's would be a rough ride in a northerly, but the inner harbor wouldn't be so great in a northerly either. Potters inner harbor is well protected, particularly the northern part, but its also very shallow in spots. I would prefer to be outside. If winds at Potters are out of the north to east, then run around to the other side of the island and anchor in Jenny Cove instead. BTDT. Great holding too.


I was anchored in Potter's, just inside the bar during a wicked NE blow a couple of years ago, two anchors out, a no-sleeper. Was just me, one other sailboat and about 100 moorings. It was THE place to be although I was bumping into one of those damned unoccupied mooring balls occasionally. Newport had boats all over the place, a real fire drill according to one of the harbor police I talked to. Took a mooring there next day for a couple of nights. That storm came out of nowhere and blew 50+ gusts all night. Will have to try Jenny Cove. Thanks for the info. With a big tide surge, Potter's might top over the bar and so would not be too good a choice in a hurricane. Not sure where I'd go in Narragansett if a big storm was coming, would probably high tail it to New B.

Fisher's is a great spot. Been using that anchorage for many years. It's also a convenient fueling stop. (The watercolor in my "avatar" was from a photo taken last year. I'm sure you recognize Fisher's in the background.)

Speaking of storms, we now have 2+ feet of snow here in the Adirondacks from this storm and still snowing! Gotta keep repeating, "I like winter and would rather be here than on the boat in the Caribbean................"


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

smurphny said:


> .....Not sure where I'd go in Narragansett if a big storm was coming, would probably high tail it to New B.


The two best hurricane holes in the Bay are Wickford on the Western shore and the Kickemuit River up by Bristol, known as the Kicky (although its hard to enter).

If its just a hard blow, there are many anchorages around the Bay that will put an island or land mass to windward and most are soft mud/sand.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

chef2sail said:


> We anchored outside of Potters Cove last summer...had no issues with a SW wind. Ill tell you however just acroos in Stonington there was no room to anchor with their huge morring field unless you stayed outside at the breakwater exposed. We took a mooring there.
> 
> dave


I think you meant that you anchored in West Harbor at Fisher's Island, which is sort of just across from Stonington.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Minnewaska said:


> The two best hurricane holes in the Bay are Wickford on the Western shore and the Kickemuit River up by Bristol, known as the Kicky (although its hard to enter).
> 
> If its just a hard blow, there are many anchorages around the Bay that will put an island or land mass to windward and most are soft mud/sand.


The Kickmut R. looks like an excellent spot but Wickford looks shallow and crowded. Bristol might be ok but it's so crowded which is the case in much of The Narragansett. I worry about other boats in a blow more than anything else. In a powerful surge lots of moorings with inadequate scope tend to drag ashore and foul everything in their path. Going way up inside Pt. Jude would also be an option in the general area.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

For a named storm, many of the moorings will be empty in Wickford. The Southern inner cove is way too tight and the Northern inner cove is indeed shallow, but there is room back there. Even behind the breakwater in the main harbor is pretty good.

Anything out of the south and Bristol is a disaster. There is plenty of room to anchor just south of the mooring field there.


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## Coyo7e (Feb 24, 2011)

Minnewaska said:


> I know this is a hypothetical, but that would just make you a real jackwad.
> 
> In your scenario, you're not happy that Chef got to place a mooring, but presumably he hasn't violated any laws or regs. You're just not happy he beat you to it, so you go picking a fight. The civil approach is to see if the owner of the seabed (municipality) is willing to change the rules. If not, leave the moorings alone.


The point I hope to make with this hypothetical is, given the mooring regulations as I believe they stand in Maryland, the guy occupying precious swing room would be wiser to share, and to share happily and publicly.

Sure, on strict legal principles it's wrong for someone to to pick up and use his private property. But it's equally true that the mooring owner has appropriated public space for his own use. And on strict legal grounds, the Jackwad also has options.


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

Coyo7e said:


> Sure, on strict legal principles it's wrong for someone to to pick up and use his private property. But it's equally true that the mooring owner has appropriated public space for his own use. And on strict legal grounds, the Jackwad also has options.


In our area legally placed moorings are allocated by the Harbormaster. The space is not "appropriated" by the mooring owner.

If there is a Town Harbor Plan in effect--at least here in CT--the Harbormaster (a creature of the State of CT)--is required to observe the Harbor Plan. The point of the Harbor Plan is like that of a Zoning Plan--to provide a set of considered policies in the public interest. An approved Harbor Plan has the force of an ordinance, where applicable.

The Harbor Plan allocates areas for commercial and private moorings and identifies a policy for assigning mooring permits, including a posted waiting list when the mooring field(s) are full. This means that moorings are allocated with consideration of the conditions of the mooring area and the type of boat on a first-come, first served basis.

This process works something like parking on a public street, but the difference is that the person who got there first not only occupies it at the time, but retains it on a reserved basis.

The intent is to provide for a safe, orderly anchorage tailored for boat swing and moderate storm conditions by the use of mooring tackle that is more substantial than typical cruising anchors.

In our area, we expect transients to use the designated transient anchorages--not the mooring fields, unless you are picking up an authorized rental mooring. Private moorings are not for rent.


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## gts1544 (Apr 26, 2008)

A question from a novice? I understand that when anchoring, you respect the previously anchored boat, first come. Does a vacant bouy get the same respect?


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

gts1544 said:


> A question from a novice? I understand that when anchoring, you respect the previously anchored boat, first come. Does a vacant bouy get the same respect?


Do you really want to foul a mooring buoy with your rudder, prop shaft, ... ?


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

gts1544 said:


> A question from a novice? I understand that when anchoring, you respect the previously anchored boat, first come. Does a vacant bouy get the same respect?


Yes


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Coyo7e said:


> ..... And on strict legal grounds, the Jackwad also has options.


What would those strict legal grounds be? Strict would imply you can cite something that references this?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I understand that people are frustrated over moorings being in place where they would prefer to anchor, or perhaps used to anchor. I don't love the fact that there is a housing development in the woods I used to hike in as a kid. But I don't get to walk through their backyards, pitch a tent and stay the night any longer and I don't suggest that I should. 

One of our neighbors owned thousands of acres of land that he knew was commonly used like public property, but we technically had no claim to it. He just permitted our use of it until he decided to develop it. I will bet that most often these coveted anchorages are actually owned by a municipality you don't live in and one could argue that anchoring should only be available to their residents?? It would be ironic if that was the outcome of pushing on this too hard, wouldn't it?


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

I'm not really clear about the laws concerning "ownership" of the seabed. Is it federal law? State law? Local law? Who actually has the legal right to claim bottom rights? To issue permits for things like fish farms, or weir nets, or docks that intrude on waterways?


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## downeast450 (Jan 16, 2008)

This thread gives me the impression that venturing west of Portland, ME will include a contentious dimension I would rather not deal with. It can't be as big a problem as it seems from these replies? Can it? We plan our trips with care and don't find ourselves in difficulty when looking for a place to park. We haven't made it to the Jersey shore yet or into the Chesapeake Bay. Our anchors and gear are quite capable. We can't bring the space to deploy them along with us. The next trip we make to the Westerd may be inland to Lake Superior. Who needs a crowded anchorage full of ignorant, resentful boaters?

"Can't we all just get along?" RK

Down


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

smurphny said:


> I'm not really clear about the laws concerning "ownership" of the seabed. Is it federal law? State law? Local law? Who actually has the legal right to claim bottom rights? To issue permits for things like fish farms, or weir nets, or docks that intrude on waterways?


Federal Law. The Submerged Lands Act of 1953 gave the rights to navigable waters out to three miles from shore to the individual States. Each State then handles that differently, but I believe most then pass ownership to the local municipality.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

downeast450 said:


> This thread gives me the impression that venturing west of Portland, ME will include a contentious dimension I would rather not deal with. It can't be as big a problem as it seems from these replies? Can it? We plan our trips with care and don't find ourselves in difficulty when looking for a place to park. We haven't made it to the Jersey shore yet or into the Chesapeake Bay. Our anchors and gear are quite capable. We can't bring the space to deploy them along with us. The next trip we make to the Westerd may be inland to Lake Superior. Who needs a crowded anchorage full of ignorant, resentful boaters?
> 
> "Can't we all just get along?" RK
> 
> Down


Chesapeake has virtually no moorings except a few small creeks. Plenty of places to anchor all over the place with many small creeks and coves. It's unlike our northern neighbors in that regard.

Dave


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

chef2sail said:


> Chesapeake has virtually no moorings except a few small creeks. Plenty of places to anchor all over the place with many small creeks and coves. It's unlike our northern neighbors in that regard.
> 
> Dave


I'm not really buying that its a problem here either. Even Newport, the busiest tourist port around, has a designated anchorage. All others I can think of have plenty of room to anchor around or just outside the mooring fields.

Ironically, in several, the really big dogs have no choice but to drop the hook outside, because of their draft.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

smurphny said:


> It's not the individuals who set their own moorings who cause the problem. They will probably actually use them.


Not necessarily... Every time I return to Maine, I'm seeing more and more "Destination Moorings" being placed by individuals in prime locations, apparently with little or no regulation whatsoever... A place like Perry Creek on Vinalhaven is a prime example, now choked with private moorings that might have been placed by some hedge fund manager from Boston with a summer vacation home in Camden, and used only on Saturdays thru the summer, or during the month of August...

Those Morris 42 "Weekenders", or Friendship 40 Faberge' Eggs aren't really meant to be anchored, after all... (grin)










Friends of mine in Maine tell me this phenomenon is becoming a serious annoyance... Perhaps Maine Sail or Down will weigh in on this...

This issue was raised in OCEAN NAVIGATOR a decade ago:

Are private moorings crowding Maine waters? - Ocean Navigator - January/February 2003

And here's Curtis Rindlaub's take on it from back then, I would guess his opinion has likely hardened a bit in the interim...

MAINE COAST: Cruising the Maine Coast => Vacant moorings


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## ltgoshen (Jan 5, 2009)

Well, I was going to river today to check on my mooring today. But the weather took a turn. I hate cold weaather. 
Weather for Beaufort, SC 

‎Clear 41° 
‎Wind: NW at 13 mph 
‎Humidity: 61% ‎high 52°


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

JonEisberg said:


> Not necessarily... Every time I return to Maine, I'm seeing more and more "Destination Moorings" being placed by individuals in prime locations, apparently with little or no regulation whatsoever... A place like Perry Creek on Vinalhaven is a prime example, now choked with private moorings that might have been placed by some hedge fund manager from Boston with a summer vacation home in Camden, and used only on Saturdays thru the summer, or during the month of August...
> 
> Those Morris 42 "Weekenders", or Friendship 40 Faberge' Eggs aren't really meant to be anchored, after all... (grin)
> 
> ...


That's really disturbing. I didn't think it had gone that far. Never heard the "destination mooring" term. I can see all sorts of problems with those from clogging anchorages to a lot of junk being left for someone else to remove. That gets back to the question of who's in charge here? Sounds like there needs to be some clear federal regulations about percentages of anchorages that can be used for any specific use. If people want these destination moorings, maybe there should be an allotment. When it's full, it's full. I'm not usually a fan of regulation but this seems to be an issue where government could actually do something useful. Since people are crossing state borders and navigation/safety issues are involved it would have to come from the feds. Space can be allocated for these "destination" moorings, local boater moorings, military/le moorings, transient moorings, and unrestricted anchorage areas. This does not sound like brain surgery to accomplish.

What a beautiful boat!


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## downeast450 (Jan 16, 2008)

Jon,

You are correct. "Summer moorings" are increasing. As the season gets busy the remaining spaces are coming under a proportionately increased amount of pressure as more transient boats show up. There are just more of us out there.

One of our rules of thumb is, "Sail to the Easterd after Memorial Day and to the Westerd after Labor Day."

Glad to learn things are not really that bleak West of Gloucester. Ha!

Down


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Minnewaska said:


> Federal Law. The Submerged Lands Act of 1953 gave the rights to navigable waters out to three miles from shore to the individual States. Each State then handles that differently, but I believe most then pass ownership to the local municipality.


That seems to be not quite the case concerning "designated anchorages." These areas are all over the place. Some are military, some are commercial, some are "unrestricted." Locals did not have much to do with their boundaries. The issue is with safety and commerce which can't be left 100% to states. Am just wondering what the specifics are about anchoring in general and who actually has jurisdiction.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

ltgoshen said:


> Well, I was going to river today to check on my mooring today. But the weather took a turn. I hate cold weaather.
> Weather for Beaufort, SC
> 
> ‎Clear 41°
> ...


Well here we got 2 inches of snow...much more north of here. It's 28 with gusts to 35


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## okawbow (Feb 15, 2007)

RobGallagher said:


> Let's look at some of the pros of moorings:
> 
> 1.They are a cheaper alternative for those of us who may not be able to afford a slip.
> 2. They actually open up more public access to the water, imagine if all of us on moorings suddenly needed a slip.
> ...


So, you've saved for years to afford to cruise a while, and find that you can just do it; if you don't have to spend a lot of money every day just to tie up for the night. After all, the ocean belongs to all of us, right?

Let's look at the alternatives to anchoring. IF I can find a slip near where I want to stop; $3.00 - $4.00 per foot, per night! (I don't earn that much in one day.) How about renting a mooring for the night,($35.00) ? Call on the radio, "harbor master, harbor master, harbor master" any moorings available? "Sorry, all the rental moorings are taken. The rest are privately owned." Happened to us several times.

Anchoring is free. We will spend our available money anyway in the local economy, at stores, museums, food and entertainment.

For those thinking of cruising the same areas; I suggest you invest in good anchors and lots of chain.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

JonEisberg said:


> Not necessarily... Every time I return to Maine, I'm seeing more and more "Destination Moorings" being placed by individuals in prime locations, apparently with little or no regulation whatsoever... A place like Perry Creek on Vinalhaven is a prime example, now choked with private moorings that might have been placed by some hedge fund manager from Boston with a summer vacation home in Camden, and used only on Saturdays thru the summer, or during the month of August...
> 
> Those Morris 42 "Weekenders", or Friendship 40 Faberge' Eggs aren't really meant to be anchored, after all... (grin)
> 
> ...


Jon,

I agree 100% and detest "destination" moorings. I think many towns could do a better job of "qualifying" moorings at places like Long Cove, Perry Creek, The Goslings and many others.

The problem however is not an easy one, especially at areas like Perry Creek. At places like Monhegan we have the opposite problem. A solid granite bottom which precludes safe anchoring and ONE town mooring..... Monhegan could stand to have half the moorings from Perry Creek.

If you ask around most every mooring at Perry Creek is for "storms" for the locals. Yes some of them are owned by "summer folk" but during storms their boats are there with all the lobstermans boats. Sure some are "destination" moorings but they are well in the minority as I have been told locally.

They also never complain when people pick up those moorings and use them, unless they happen to be there. The Goslings have the same "unwritten" stance on using moorings.. Who am I to deny the Islanders of Northhaven & Vinalhaven the right to have a safe & known mooring for storms when they live on an island and depend upon their vessels for not only the food they put on the table but also for their connection to the mainland? Who am I to complain when the use of these moorings is not "disallowed" when the owners are not present. Who am I to compalin that with these moorings you can now often "fit" in Perry Creek because with 2:1 scope moorings a lot more boats can be packed in there. We minimized going to Perry Creek years ago, during prime season, because even with less moorings it was always PACKED with idiots trying to use 7:1 scope or being the only one bow/stern anchored (unless way up in the head of the harbor where it is necessary)... These "destination" cruising guide locations are the first ones to become obnoxious. Perhaps the bigger issue is the Cruising Guide calling out these "prime" locations.....

As for the Goslings I'd be happy to see every mooring in there get removed except for island property owners, like the Dugas family, or residents on the Harpswell neck who regularly move boats there in the fall for protection from the NW winds..

When we lived in Sunset Cove in Harpswell I had a legal and permitted storm mooring there. The Goslings were directly out our front window, a nice view. In the fall I would put my boat there in a NW blow and take the dinghy back across the bay. I could see our boat there from the living room window. Our home mooring was VERY exposed to the NW so as a Harpswell resident and tax payer I had no issue keeping a storm mooring there. I also had no qualms with people using it and had it clearly labeled as to chain and mushroom size so there were no "surprises". When I lived in Harpswell I was on the waterfront committee. I fought for "criteria" for non-resident "destination" moorings at both Quahog Bay and the Goslings. It fell on deaf ears, in the mid 90's, but I did what I could do as a resident, tax payer and waterfront committee member. One issue was that I was up against another member who was a mooring guy. he made a tidy business managing moorings at the Goslings and was about 10th generation Harpswell resident.... Small town politics...

When we moved across the bay to Cumberland I did the right thing and REMOVED our mooring from the Goslings because it would have made it a "destination mooring", something I strongly disagreed with then, and still disagree with now.. Occasionally when we go there we use the moorings of people we know, but often we still anchor. There is still plenty of room to anchor there despite all the moorings.

Even with all the "destination" moorings in Maine there are literally HUNDREDS of places to anchor. If you "must" go to a tourist trap "Cruising Guide" destination EXPECT a crowd even without destination moorings. Carver Cove and about 10 other PRIME locations (not Carvers Harbor) are just around the corner from Perry Creek. There is NO need to go to Perry Creek unless you want bugs or crowds and this has not changed because of the moorings... The moorings actually make more room in there and give more people more access. I still don't like the roughly 20% of them that are "destination" moorings but have no complaints for the locals who use them during storms or in the winter when we are not even there.

Recently a lobsterman on Vinalhaven placed a number of moorings in Long Cove. He rents them. I find this unnecessary but after asking around it seems he and his buddies all use these moorings in storms or let other locals who are "exposed" do so. I have used one and gladly put the money in the Coke bottle, because this like Perry Creek and some others, is a tricky one.

The Goslings are not as tricky. Only a few residents of Haprswell neck and the Dugas family and other island owners have "legitimate" reasons for having a mooring there.. Perhaps 90% of those moorings should ideally not be there and are "destination" moorings. Quahog Bay is also filling up as is the Basin.....

At Perry Creek perhaps 20% should not be there but this anchorage is managed by the residents of Vinalhaven, a tough lot, and I seriously doubt it will change. Could they make the permitting process tougher with more "justification" like _"Is this a storm mooring for a resident of Vinalhaven or Northaven?"_ Sure, they could, but this is island life and you will NEVER get or understand the small island politics nor penetrate it or dictate what or how they should or should not manage their waters....

Are "destination" moorings an issue in Maine? In the big scheme of things I would have to say no. I say this because we have HUNDREDS of places to anchor. If you "must" visit Perry Creek or The Goslings, and feel "entitled" to do so then you can use the moorings until the owner comes along as this is the "unwritten rule". Even at Perry Creek you can still anchor just as you can at the Goslings... You may not get the most "prime" spot but you can still anchor...

People always complain about Sebasco and the over abundance of moorings yet we anchor there nearly every time we go. It is not an issue for someone who actually knows what they are doing. This still doesn't stop the whining...

30 years ago Jewell Island was filled with "destination" moorings. They were removed. They are now all gone except for the caretakers mooring. Jewell Island is the #1 best place to get dragged into on the coast of Maine. Perhaps some "destination" moorings would stop the stupidity of people who have no clue how to anchor? We stay away from Jewell in prime season not because of an over abundance of destination moorings but because there are sooooooooooooooooo many morons on the water who have not a clue as to how to anchor a boat. This is perhaps why we have so many "destination" moorings popping up everywhere...

A catch 22 I'd say.....


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

One should be careful pushing for legislation to address this issue. Those "Faberge' daysailors" can make a safety argument and point to the investment they made in their property. They probably make an investment in their local government representatives campaign fund too. Next thing you know, you'll be prevented from anchoring within 500 yards of a mooring field, for fear of dragging into them.


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## Agri (Dec 5, 2011)

smurphny said:


> I'm not really clear about the laws concerning "ownership" of the seabed. Is it federal law? State law? Local law? Who actually has the legal right to claim bottom rights? To issue permits for things like fish farms, or weir nets, or docks that intrude on waterways?


The OP was asking about BC. In Canada the Federal government controls the water and the Provinical government controls the ocean floor. The Coast Guard has jurisdiction over the waterways but the Department of Transport regulates moorings.

Sent from my GT-P6210 using Tapatalk 2


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## Agri (Dec 5, 2011)

Minnewaska said:


> One should be careful pushing for legislation to address this issue. Those "Faberge' daysailors" can make a safety argument and point to the investment they made in their property. They probably make an investment in their local government representatives campaign fund too. Next thing you know, you'll be prevented from anchoring within 500 yards of a mooring field, for fear of dragging into them.


On that notehttp://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...eboats-increasingly-unwelcome/article1389116/.



> Some of the houseboats' most vocal opponents live on Angus Drive, whose large million-dollar homes have unobstructed views of the bay. "I don't like looking down every day at that," said Angus Drive resident Steve Smith, adding that the effect of the houseboats on his view is driving down his property value. As far as he is concerned, the boat owners are essentially squatters who are taking away from other people's ability to enjoy the bay.


http://m.theglobeandmail.com/news/b...ore-anchorages/article1714124/?service=mobile

Sent from my GT-P6210 using Tapatalk 2


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## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

Maine Sail said:


> At Perry Creek perhaps 20% should not be there but this anchorage is managed by the residents of Vinalhaven, a tough lot, and I seriously doubt it will change. Could they make the permitting process tougher with more "justification" like _"Is this a storm mooring for a resident of Vinalhaven or Northaven?"_ Sure, they could, but this is island life and you will NEVER get or understand the small island politics nor penetrate it or dictate what or how they should or should not manage their waters....
> 
> Are "destination" moorings an issue in Maine? In the big scheme of things I would have to say no. I say this because we have HUNDREDS of places to anchor. If you "must" visit Perry Creek or The Goslings, and feel "entitled" to do so then you can use the moorings until the owner comes along as this is the "unwritten rule". Even at Perry Creek you can still anchor just as you can at the Goslings... You may not get the most "prime" spot but you can still anchor...
> 
> A catch 22 I'd say.....


Perry Creek is still a favorite anchorage for us living nearby. I've seen more destination moorings placed in there, especially in the last few years. I believe the destination moorings are a higher percentage(I know so many of the owners, they live nearby) but agree, if anything, they increase the number of boats that can safely spend the night. I will agree again, that owners refer to these as "storm moorings", even when they are not.

Overall though, as you say, these moorings are only in a few pockets where there are no local regs(they're not local working harbors), and your right and room to anchor is alive and well on the coast of Maine.

I've been telling sailors for years, Pondering a More Lasting Presence on the Coast | Maine ,... use these destination moorings.

The owners that place them have taken your anchoring space hostage, the least they can do is lend them out.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Just to keep the analysis complete, its been proven throughout time that individual ownership of land has been better for sustainability. When you own it, you don't over harvest or pollute, because you want it to be there for your use again. In a communal environment, you are concerned that the next user will take everything, so you do so first. Or, polluting becomes less a concern, if you're never coming back.

I'm just adding to the discussion, I believe there could be some reasonable guidelines around this. These guidelines should be set by the locality.


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## Coquina (Dec 27, 2012)

Our biggest issue is abandoned moorings. You can't anchor near them, you can't put a mooring near them, and you can't use them because they are in crap condition at best. My mooring is one of 6 in front of our club and only ONE other one is safe to use. Like mine, it was put down last spring. I chase people off them on occasion - not for "ownership" reasons but because they are unsafe for anything bigger than an Opti.

We have a spring project planned to remove all the junk gear and put down one or two good ones for guests of the club. I would like to see a basic permit/sticker process where if the sticker is over X years out of date the gear is removed.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Coquina said:


> Our biggest issue is abandoned moorings. You can't anchor near them, you can't put a mooring near them, and you can't use them because they are in crap condition at best. My mooring is one of 6 in front of our club and only ONE other one is safe to use. Like mine, it was put down last spring. I chase people off them on occasion - not for "ownership" reasons but because they are unsafe for anything bigger than an Opti.
> 
> We have a spring project planned to remove all the junk gear and put down one or two good ones for guests of the club. I would like to see a basic permit/sticker process where if the sticker is over X years out of date the gear is removed.


A possible solution is using private enterprise to maintain mooring areas. Thinking about Port Jefferson/Setauket Harbor on Long Island, NY, Brookhaven town gives permission for marinas to place and maintain moorings in the designated areas. With this setup, the mooring placer has incentive, both financial and legal, to keep them in good condition. IMO they do hog up too much space BUT at least they are kept in relatively good condition and will not foul the bottom with old junk (although in the thick mud most abandoned moorings will disappear in not too long a period of time). An old buddy of mine owns one of the marinas and I know for a fact that he keeps the moorings in good shape.


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## Coquina (Dec 27, 2012)

Marina and city owned moorings ARE maintained because they don't want to get sued if they break loose. I am talking about a guy that puts a mooring down on his own and has long since moved away, sold the boat, died, or otherwise couldn't care less about it now. Human nature being what it is, they generally don't remove them. Throwing a heavy anchor over the side is one thing, but prying it back up out of the mud is a very different thing!


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## Coyo7e (Feb 24, 2011)

Minnewaska said:


> What would those strict legal grounds be? Strict would imply you can cite something that references this?


Maryland DNR summarizes mooring placement rules here and by design or accident makes no mention of existing moorings: (www,dnr.state.md.us/boating/srmbuoys.asp)

Of course, there may be something in the actual regs that is not covered by the summary, but remember this is a hypothetical.

In the end, none of us can count on regulations, laws, or changes to them to really help out. The best that we can hope to do here is establish a sense of community values and hope that social pressures will do three things:

1) Limit the wanton placement of destination moorings

2) Establish who exactly the "Jackwad" is: the guy who places the destination mooring in crowded anchorages, or the guy who uses it without permission.

And, since it's rarely possible for the cruiser to know if a given mooring is either secure or a home base -

3) Encourage those placing moorings to do a really good job of marking them.

Wouldn't it be nice to see this?

"Private mooring 40ft-max. Use at your own risk. Leave your phone number if you go ashore"


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Coyo7e said:


> Maryland DNR summarizes mooring placement rules here and by design or accident makes no mention of existing moorings: (www,dnr.state.md.us/boating/srmbuoys.asp)
> 
> Of course, there may be something in the actual regs that is not covered by the summary, but remember this is a hypothetical.
> 
> ...


I don't really see where that citing gives our hypothetical jackwad any options. In fact, this sounds more like it would limit said jackwad from placing a mooring that interfered with another:



> Also, the arc of the swing must not impede or obstruct ......, or otherwise hinder the orderly ....... use of waterways by the general public. (_Unrelated references removed_)


While the majority of this section refers to interfering with access from land or nav channels, it seems to me that it would also prevent one from placing a mooring that interfered with the orderly and legal placement of an existing one.


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

san dkiegop moorings are maintained by a private company--after the p ort of sd decided they were not money makers, they were privatized in 2001. rates rose yearly until their contract said no mas..now they want to rid moorings of the older tenants--grandfathered in at a certain nice affordable rate monthly. 

watch what you wish for...it will come back to bite ye...good luck. 

dont anchor in any mooring fields too close to a buoy. you may be impounded, as in sd,and retrieving said boat from impound can be over 1800 dollars, us. good luck. have fun and be decent.

happy new year...


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

chef2sail said:


> We anchored outside of Potters Cove last summer...had no issues with a SW wind. Ill tell you however just acroos in Stonington there was no room to anchor with their huge morring field unless you stayed outside at the breakwater exposed. We took a mooring there.
> 
> dave


I have anchored in Stonington quite a few times and favor it as an anchorage because they actually have a designated anchorage area. It is within the mooring field so you have to find it, but we have anchored in there w/ several boats and there was plenty of swinging room.
Perhaps it's gone now?
I will NOT use a mooring unless absolutely forced to do so; I don't trust them more than my anchor tackle, as so many above have stated.
I think it's absolutely disgusting the way the NE has totally blanketed so many nice anchorages with moorings leaving no place for visitors to anchor. Of course, I doubt that any of these communities give a rat's a*s about cruisers or visiting sailors as we just do not put enough MONEY into the local coffers; like a couple of dozen tour buses a day. Anyway, they've "Got Mine" so screw everyone else! Just like the Keys.
On my circumnavigation, everywhere we went the folks realized that we had worked hard to get there (sailing), not just paid money and sat in a window seat aboard a plane. They were extremely hospitable and the exchange of cultures and ideas was a two way street.
As communities put economic interests before the great pleasure of meeting new people who have come to visit, it is both parties that lose. $150.00 to $200.00 a week for a visitor's mooring is not hugely conducive to "hanging around and making friends".


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

capta said:


> Of course, I doubt that any of these communities give a rat's a*s about cruisers or visiting sailors as we just do not put enough MONEY into the local coffers; like a couple of dozen tour buses a day. Anyway, they've "Got Mine" so screw everyone else!


As it turns out, the State of Connecticut requires consideration of transient anchorage(s) in reviewing Harbor Plans before they are acted on by the appropriate Town legislative body. In our area we did just that in Mystic/Stonington--designating three transient anchorages on the Stonington side of the Mystic River. We also constructed a dinghy dock for transient use just south of Mystic Seaport and convenient to the "downtown" area. There is another, larger dinghy dock placed by the Mystic Fire District just south of the Rt. 1 drawbridge and there is another public dock and launch within several hundred yards. Part of the minimal mooring fees on the Stonington side of the Mystic River is contributed to the free pumpout boats that serve our area.

Maybe there are communities who haven't met the highest standards for free transient accommodations, but the sweeping indictment of New England communities as uncaring is off the mark.

Maybe part of the problem is that the more popular areas have intense competition for space and the allocation of "free parking" on the water side becomes limited or non-existent, just like on the land side in these areas. Some areas like Newport institute "resident parking" policies to assure that the local population can park in reasonable proximity to their homes. Perhaps there are parallels on the water side that are not appreciated by visitors.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

fallard said:


> > Originally Posted by capta
> > Of course, I doubt that any of these communities give a rat's a*s about cruisers or visiting sailors as we just do not put enough MONEY into the local coffers; like a couple of dozen tour buses a day. Anyway, they've "Got Mine" so screw everyone else!
> 
> 
> Maybe there are communities who haven't met the highest standards for free transient accommodations, but the sweeping indictment of New England communities as uncaring is off the mark.


Agreed, I continue to be favorably impressed by how welcoming a place like Newport remains, for a cruiser like me, on a generally modest budget...

I tend to avoid the busy spots anyway, but I'm hard-pressed to recall the last time I took a mooring anywhere in New England... In the Thorofare at Isle au Haut, Monhegan, that's about it... Sure, in a place like Nantucket, the anchorage can be challenging and inconvenient, but certainly do-able...
One thing that certainly helps in many places - shoal draft, which will permit one to anchor on the periphery of mooring fields, in places like Cuttyhunk...

Thanks for the excellent replies on destination moorings from Maine Sail, and TomMaine, btw... Good opinions from guys who really know the area...


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

The fact that Newport has done such a good job of allocating space is proof that if thought out well, everyone can be accommodated. With all the sailing/yacht club, transient, tour boat, and power boat traffic it is really noteworthy that except during "event" times, you can still find a spot to anchor. Now if they could only find a way to solve the problem of the damned cable running across the anchorage...


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## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

JonEisberg said:


> Agreed, I continue to be favorably impressed by how welcoming a place like Newport remains, for a cruiser like me, on a generally modest budget...
> 
> I tend to avoid the busy spots anyway, but I'm hard-pressed to recall the last time I took a mooring anywhere in New England... In the Thorofare at Isle au Haut, Monhegan, that's about it... Sure, in a place like Nantucket, the anchorage can be challenging and inconvenient, but certainly do-able...
> One thing that certainly helps in many places - shoal draft, which will permit one to anchor on the periphery of mooring fields, in places like Cuttyhunk...
> ...


I agree Jon. We make regular trips to Southern New England and never have a problem anchoring in Cuttyhunk, Tashmoo, Edgartown, Ptown, Nantucket, well, pretty much anywhere we want to go as long as weather allows in some of the more exposed anchorages.

Last time we visited Newport, we anchored for 3 days off the Ida Lewis YC(I'm not sure we were supposed to,...) and had ready dingy access. We had a blast watching Newport go by.

Our centerboard gives us a few great options like Cuttyhunk, anytime we want to visit(so far). We'll also pick up moorings in some places like Menemsha(inside in September, no problem), Nantucket if weather goes bad(no problem so far there either).

Best of all, there is nowhere on the east coast that is any more accessible on your own boat than southern New England we've found. You're often surrounded by public beach and landing options. No nasty DON"T ANCHOR signs anywhere. The shoreline is as accessible as Maines.


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

Not to beat a dead horse - but (and here I beat it anyway) -

Parking your car in a public lot and putting a mooring ball down in public water is not the same.
Painting a public lot parking spot with a 'reserved by Chuckles' sign or leaving a orange cone in said spot is more akin to a mooring ball - 
Putting a chain across the parking spot or chaining that orange cone down is closer to the real deal. 
Same deal for bike racks etc.. no one is talking about using your car or your bike, we're talking about using the parking SPACE or the bike RACK that you left your property in.


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## GMC (Sep 14, 2009)

I think we need to be careful of too vigorously proclaiming our property rights to our moorings. I have one. I paid for the tackle and inspections and such. I understand that I own my stuff. Remember that mooring permits in New England range between 30-200 dollars a year. The actual value of those mooring permits could legitimately be increased to the value of a Martha's Vineyard beach key for most southern New England harbors. A hundred dollar mooring permit in a desired Mass. harbor is probably worth in the tens of thousands of dollars to those that afford to pay it. Without courtesy and accommodation along the lines suggested by Rob Gallagher in his posts, there will be pressure and it seems to me that pressure will mean municipalities who are being asked to police people's moorings and hire staff to do it, will raise the cost of mooring permits to their true values. Once I've paid 20,000 for a mooring permit, then maybe I can understand the "it's my property" argument. Right now, we're being subsidized pretty heavily by the public, who expect us to be courteous about it, I think.


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

I agree GMC, if you pay for the spot it's yours. 

Here, there is no fee for a single ball.


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

GMC said:


> I think we need to be careful of too vigorously proclaiming our property rights to our moorings. I have one. I paid for the tackle and inspections and such. I understand that I own my stuff. Remember that mooring permits in New England range between 30-200 dollars a year. The actual value of those mooring permits could legitimately be increased to the value of a Martha's Vineyard beach key for most southern New England harbors. A hundred dollar mooring permit in a desired Mass. harbor is probably worth in the tens of thousands of dollars to those that afford to pay it. Without courtesy and accommodation along the lines suggested by Rob Gallagher in his posts, there will be pressure and it seems to me that pressure will mean municipalities who are being asked to police people's moorings and hire staff to do it, will raise the cost of mooring permits to their true values. Once I've paid 20,000 for a mooring permit, then maybe I can understand the "it's my property" argument. Right now, we're being subsidized pretty heavily by the public, who expect us to be courteous about it, I think.


It's not often, in this lifetime, that someone agrees with me. 

Be nice. It pays off in the long run.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

chucklesR said:


> Not to beat a dead horse - but (and here I beat it anyway) -
> 
> Parking your car in a public lot and putting a mooring ball down in public water is not the same.
> Painting a public lot parking spot with a 'reserved by Chuckles' sign or leaving a orange cone in said spot is more akin to a mooring ball -
> ...


I understand your point I think in that you are saying no one has the right to limit acccess to the water ( parking space) correct?

Do we agree that a government agency has the right to allocate use of that water (space). We are not talking about channel obstruction here. ?

If the answer is no, then it would mean the only rights a home owner would retain would be the riparian rights ( land visable at low tide). That would then mean all docks and piers which extend out into open water water technically would be the same as that illegal morring wouldnt it?

The property owners building piers which extend into water 6-8 foot depths are no different than the person putting a morring ball in the same space correct? And therefore someone else who wants to can use them correct?

Dave


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

It's more like building a duck blind on federal land. Yea, OK, it's your wood and nails. But if someone is sitting in it when you come by, well, just ask them nicely to move. What's the big deal?

Are people really that worried that someone will, if I may quote Caddyshack, "scratch their anchor"?


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

chef2sail said:


> I understand your point I think in that you are saying no one has the right to limit acccess to the water ( parking space) correct?
> 
> Do we agree that a government agency has the right to allocate use of that water (space). We are not talking about channel obstruction here. ?
> 
> ...


Apples and oranges.

We are all fully aware of what the real estate tax values are for an inland home compared to what they are at water front property that has the ability to build a deep water slip. We are talking exponential values here.

Let us not even begin to dig into the values that increase property tax when a structure such as a dock is built.

Then you have the costs of building the actual dock. In some cases, more than the price of a modest home.

I don't think we want to go down that road. Someone bureaucrat may be reading this and get some ideas....


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## Coquina (Dec 27, 2012)

Not a bit. Apparently we have on this thread people that think it is OK to grab my mooring and tell ME to find someplace else to go if I come back and/or anchor so close to it as to make it unusable and/or put ANOTHER mooring right next to it so as to make them both unusable just to prove they can.

*btw, if you ever do want to use my mooring, call the number I put on the ball and I'll tell you if it is OK or not 



RobGallagher said:


> It's more like building a duck blind on federal
> land. Yea, OK, it's your wood and nails. But if someone is sitting in it when you come by, well, just ask them nicely to move. What's the big deal?
> 
> Are people really that worried that someone will, if I may quote Caddyshack, "scratch their anchor"?


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

RobGallagher said:


> Apples and oranges.
> 
> We are all fully aware of what the real estate tax values are for an inland home compared to what they are at water front property that has the ability to build a deep water slip. We are talking exponential values here.


But the tax rate or "mil rate" is the same per thousand of assessed value so they are really being taxed the same. One home is more valuable in FMV than another due only to location or proximity value.. For example we pay about $19.00 per thousand in property tax. So does our neighbor who is across the street and "technically" on the water. She pays the same mil rate we do just that her home is worth more so she pays more in taxes..



RobGallagher said:


> Let us not even begin to dig into the values that increase property tax when a structure such as a dock is built.


When we built our dock in Harpswell (actually got permitted to rebuild a decrepit and condemned structure) it added nothing to the property tax bill as the town did not feel it really changed our property's "value" as it was already waterfront and the land was valued accordingly by location. I am sure that in some states a dock does add FMV but the mil rate would be the same per thousand of assessed value as any other home. Most states have laws that stipulate how property taxes are levied and the vast majority are on assessed valuations in relation to FMV. A mil rate is then applied usually on a "per thousand" basis. California and some others do it differently but here in the NE most use the method I describe.

Here in Maine they tax the structure value, land value and outbuildings. In Maine there are no "adders" to calculate docks that I know of as it does not qualify as an outbuilding, structure or land.. Two summers ago our neighbors built a dock to the tune of 285K in cost. I just looked up their property tax bill and don't see that it changed at all from three years ago. That said different states likely have different ways of valuing waterfront property.



RobGallagher said:


> Then you have the costs of building the actual dock. In some cases, more than the price of a modest home.


Docks are ungodly expensive to build these days. While expensive to build they are not usually taxed at anywhere near the cost to build them, if at all, at least here in Maine... When I built our barn it added $1200.00 to our overall property value but cost far more than that to build.

Figuring mil rates is complex and all we can say is that waterfront property will always be worth more than inland unless your house is about to erode off a cliff or barrier island. Houses in prime neighborhoods or prime "locations" will also have a higher assessed value even for the same physical size lot and structure. Put our house/lot out in Westbrook, ME and we're paying about 1/3 what we pay to be in Cumberland, ME because the "location" is worth a lot less........

I still don't know what any of this has to do with moorings.....


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

GMC said:


> ......Right now, we're being subsidized pretty heavily by the public, who expect us to be courteous about it, I think.


While I agree with the tone of being courteous, what is the public doing to heavily subsidize the private moorings? I hope you're not suggesting some great favor by not exercising their sovereign ability to tax whatever they like?

In abstract, who says anyone owns or controls a single drop of water from the shoreline. I'm not really arguing that society should have no say in the matter, but its important to be grounded in what we all feel entitled to. If I want to fund a cabin on the moon, who do I have to get permission from? How about the Arctic? Just trying to make a point.


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## Coquina (Dec 27, 2012)

No one funded my mooring one bit.


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## GMC (Sep 14, 2009)

The cost of your mooring does not represent the true value of the privilege. Whether we like it or not our waters (and the land below) are owned in unison with all of the other citizens in our respective states. Each state handles it differently and in most New England towns, the control or policing of the harbors is done by the municipalities. We are subsidized in the sense that the value of what we enjoy (the mooring) is permitted to us at an artificially low rate so that the most amount of people can use the water. If the states or towns wanted to generate more income and/or have less moorings, they could charge the real value of moorings. So for example in Vineyard Haven, they could deliberately reduce moorings by a hundred and instead of charging the hundred or so dollars for a mooring permit, they could charge what the market would bear, and I imagine they could charge in the tens of thousands for single moorings. This would make more room for anchoring and would provide a lot more income for many harbors to pay for harbor maintenance and services. It would open up room for anchoring. But, the counterweight against doing this is the general legal requirement that the "people's" property should be enjoyed (imperfectly) by the most amount of people and that the people should not be excluded from what they collectively own. So the subsidization is the fact that we mooring holders in most locations are not paying the full value of what we have and the resultant cost (harbor maintenance, policing, etc) is borne by the general public. Similar to using public lands. I am not saying this is right or wrong. It is just the way it has developed legally and in practice on our shores.


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## GMC (Sep 14, 2009)

I'm not sure I was clear on Vineyard Haven example. People (like me) would go nuts if we knew we could not obtain a mooring permit in a harbor unless we could pay 15,000 dollars. If this system were in place, most of NE's harbors moorings would be closed to anyone but the wealthy. That is hard to take when you know it is public property. I think that is part of the reason we have the very limited, but very cheap mooring opportunities that we have.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

GMC, I get your point. However, you are saying that society could, if it chose to exercise its authority, get away with forcing its will on the individual and requiring they pay more. Probably true. However, society haven't actually subsidized the cost of these moorings. Failing to exercise your power is not a subsidy. I doubt there is a single harbor or harbor patrol that was created exclusively to permit the presence of an owner occupied mooring field.


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## GMC (Sep 14, 2009)

Minnewaska,
Right. I think the better analogy is not society's ability to tax. A mooring permit is different as it is a license or permit to use public property that has value. Probably a bad example, but if the state government owns an unused building and leases it for 100 dollars a month in a market where comparable property is leasing at 10,000, the lessee is getting a deal and the loss in rent is absorbed by us, the public, who own the building. Maybe there is a good reason for the lower rent, but not charging the fair market rent is a type of subsidy. That's all I mean.
Greg


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## rockDAWG (Sep 6, 2006)

For the records, I would never use any privately owned mooring buoy unless in an emergency that will create a greater danger to others if I don't pick the ball.

OTOH, if I own a mooring ball or a slip, I don't mind other using it if I am not around. I may put a contact number on a small tag attached to the ball and advise the transient captain to call me before using it for the nite. 

I don't mind to share


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