# Slow Racing or Fast Cruising?



## smackdaddy

Some interesting perspectives have come up in the Mutiny and Know It All threads. And, while they are based in the age-old angst between "Racers" and "Cruisers" (which will likely never be resolved), I think there is a _great deal_ of middle ground that is kind of perfect for SN.

For example, me. I LOVE offshore racing. But I'm not at all "hardcore" about it at this point in my life. In the races I've done, one boat was the more "hardcore" boat (spartan accommodations and food, worries about weight, lots of tension and yelling, etc.), the other boat was all about enjoyment (_great_ food, nice accommodations, serious-yet-chilled environment, etc.).

The funny thing is, the second boat performed much better than the first.

I am about to start "racing" my own boat. But I'm going to be perfectly content in the "Aloha Class"-style divisions. We'll have plenty of water, plenty of great food, plenty of nice drinks, and every comfort we can think of short of a strap-on jacuzzi. We'll take it all "seriously" and do our best to win our division, but my primary goal is having a great time and enjoying the trip...win or lose. I'll just expect us to be safe, and improve our performance with each attempt.

Low bar? Maybe. But it's still racing to me.

The bottom line is, racing is just about the best possible way to improve your sailing skills. And it's a great deal of fun. It doesn't have to be done to the extreme most cruisers point to when denigrating racing. Just like cruising doesn't have to be done in a full-keel 2KSB with an acre of solar panels like most racers point to when denigrating cruising. There's definitely middle ground.

Whaddayathink?


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## johnnyquest37

This is what I do. We "race" our crusing boat, but have no expectatuions of winning.


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## mark2gmtrans

Hey Smack, check out this serious racing boat, watch the whole thing and tell me if you think these guys are living in spartan conditions with no water....

Notice how they suffered through the crossing...


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## PBzeer

> Whaddayathink?


I think it's your boat and you ought to use it in what ever way pleases YOU.


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## happy_sailor

It's all about what you want, and making sure your goals are aligned with the entire crew. I have no problem racing on a hard core race boat where weight is a huge concern and you're constantly making adjustments and doing everything you possibly can to win, as long as that doesn't involve tons of yelling and tension. I think it's definitely possible to make that happen as long as everyone already has good communication skills and a shared goal of finishing as quickly as possible. On the other hand, I've done many beer can races where the goal was to go out and enjoy the sailing and results weren't a big deal, and I enjoyed that alot too, but if I didn't have that mindset already I probably would've started yelling and I wouldn't have had fun.

Basically, whatever floats your boat, and make sure it's what everyone else wants too.


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## smackdaddy

mark2gmtrans said:


> Hey Smack, check out this serious racing boat, watch the whole thing and tell me if you think these guys are living in spartan conditions with no water....
> 
> Notice how they suffered through the crossing...
> 
> Atlantic crossing on Wally 100 Indio with VOR-sailors - YouTube


Yeah, I've seen that one. Love the chick in the floppy hat.

A client/friend of mind who I introduced to sailing wants a Wally in the 80'-100' range. I'll get to help him with the test sails when he's ready to pull the trigger. Livin' it baby!


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## jak3b

Good point Smack.Lots of venting going in those threads.I grew up sailing in New England. I did LOTS of racing in the summer when I was a kid.That was the curriculum.That was it.We didnt learn how to build boats boats or cruise.It was about seamanship, tying knots,boat handling, then racing, from little cat boats up into IOR boats.Some people were very serious when racing,Lots of yelling and tension.That was never my cuppa tea but it was exciting to be in a big race start in Marblehead.There would be 30 or so different classes of boats in the bay at the same time in there various races.It was thrilling.ALL my sailing skills I honed racing.


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## flandria

mark2gmtrans said:


> Hey Smack, check out this serious racing boat, watch the whole thing and tell me if you think these guys are living in spartan conditions with no water....
> 
> Notice how they suffered through the crossing...
> 
> Yup...
> 
> They don't even mind sharing the fact they managed to run aground! (I guess after 11 days they were happy to be ON land...??)


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## mark2gmtrans

smackdaddy said:


> Yeah, I've seen that one. Love the chick in the floppy hat.
> 
> A client/friend of mind who I introduced to sailing wants a Wally in the 80'-100' range. I'll get to help him with the test sails when he's ready to pull the trigger. Livin' it baby!


I might "want" a Wally in the 80'-100' range but that is about all I can do with a Wally...

I thought the video was great, and I love the boat. The floppy hat chick was great.

You noticed how they suffered along, barely having enough water to keep a gerbil alive, and the Captain was screaming and threatening to zip tie everyone to the rails, right? Such drama, such tension, no wonder more people do not want to sail on boats like that


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## PCP

smackdaddy said:


> ...
> The bottom line is, racing is just about the best possible way to improve your sailing skills. And it's a great deal of fun. It doesn't have to be done to the extreme most cruisers point to when denigrating racing. Just like cruising doesn't have to be done in a full-keel 2KSB with an acre of solar panels like most racers point to when denigrating cruising. There's definitely middle ground.
> 
> Whaddayathink?


I think many cruisers like to race against other sailboats. Yesterday I sailed out from a beach at the same time than one of the new HR 415, the wind was strong (about 20K with gusts higher) and son it was obvious that we were racing. My boat is a powerful one and as my wife is a bit scared with heeling I was sailing very conservatively ( second reef in and the Genoa a bit reefed). Even so we were doing 7.5K/8.5K at a broad reach, about the same speed of the HR, a fast boat with medium to high winds on a broad reach.

Then we went close upwind with very strong gusts and two to three meters waves (doing 6.5K to 7.5K) and soon it was clear that the HR was not a mach. Its angle was much worse and the boat was slower. After one hour the HR was a little spot and it changed course and disappeared while we made it to our destination, Monemvasia, an wonderful place. Check it on the google.

So, what is the problem with a bit racing while cruising?

Regards

Paulo


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## smackdaddy

PCP said:


> I think many cruisers like to race against other sailboats. Yesterday I sailed out from a beach at the same time than one of the new HR 415, the wind was strong (about 20K with gusts higher) and son it was obvious that we were racing. My boat is a powerful one and as my wife is a bit scared with heeling I was sailing very conservatively ( second reef in and the Genoa a bit reefed). Even so we were doing 7.5K/8.5K at a broad reach, about the same speed of the HR, a fast boat with medium to high winds on a broad reach.
> 
> Then we went close upwind with very strong gusts and two to three meters waves (doing 6.5K to 7.5K) and soon it was clear that the HR was not a mach. Its angle was much worse and the boat was slower. After one hour the HR was a little spot and it changed course and disappeared while we made it to our destination, Monemvasia, an wonderful place. Check it on the google.
> 
> So, what is the problem with a bit racing while cruising?
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


I was hoping you'd chime in here Paulo. Your "Interesting Boats" thread does a great job of dealing with this question from the boat design perspectiove (and looks to be on track to be SN's _*1M-View*_ thread - very impressive).

Here's to leaving HRs on the horizon!


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## TJC45

Whenever two sailboats are near each other and headed in the same direction it's a race! I don't care what anybody says! 

Whadda I think? Try it. It is one more way to enjoy sailing. or not. And if not, it's a been there done that sort of deal. Move on!

There are many different levels of racing and many different ways to enjoy sailing. Go for it!!!!


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## capecodda

Smack

Right on the money! Can you imagine, focusing on fun. 

The whole world is out there arguing, fighting, competing to the death. And we're just out there going for a sail, trying to win and be comfortable because it's fun. 

Imagine that!

You radical you


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## capecodda

TJC45 said:


> Whenever two sailboats are near each other and headed in the same direction it's a race! I don't care what anybody says!
> 
> Whadda I think? Try it. It is one more way to enjoy sailing. or not. And if not, it's a been there done that sort of deal. Move on!
> 
> There are many different levels of racing and many different ways to enjoy sailing. Go for it!!!!


Agreed completely. Also, the rule is you need to look like you're not trying when you pass the other guy. Maybe be grilling a steak on the stern rail


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## ajoliver

We invariably race more successfully when we take along a newbie or other guest. I calls it the "karma factor". Try it !!


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## Grunthrie

This thread is entirely too civil! What a breath of fresh air! (not that im not enjoying the vitriol threads  )
At the phase of my sailing (floundering about trying to fill the sails with the abundant wind) I am mostly racing the sun, trying to get home while I can still see!


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## Classic30

smackdaddy said:


> .......
> I am about to start "racing" my own boat. But I'm going to be perfectly content in the "Aloha Class"-style divisions. We'll have plenty of water, plenty of great food, plenty of nice drinks, and every comfort we can think of short of a strap-on jacuzzi. We'll take it all "seriously" and do our best to win our division, but my primary goal is having a great time and enjoying the trip...win or lose. I'll just expect us to be safe, and improve our performance with each attempt.
> 
> Low bar? Maybe. But it's still racing to me.
> 
> *The bottom line is, racing is just about the best possible way to improve your sailing skills. *And it's a great deal of fun. It doesn't have to be done to the extreme most cruisers point to when denigrating racing. Just like cruising doesn't have to be done in a full-keel 2KSB with an acre of solar panels like most racers point to when denigrating cruising. There's definitely middle ground.
> 
> Whaddayathink?


Smack, I think you'll discover racing can be addictive. 

I've known many people (including myself once) who have started out with the mindset of "I'm only doing this to improve my sailing skills.." and, after a season or three of coming second (or third or fourth), have found themselves:

Replacing sheets and halyards ("the old ones were a bit embarrasing... and I'm doing this to improve my sailing skills")
Getting new sails ("the old ones were a bit baggy.... and I'm doing this to improve my sailing skills")
Replacing cleats and winches ("just couldn't sheet on fast enough in the tacks.... and this will help improve my sailing skills")
Setting a new, larger, different, masthead spinnaker ("if I can go a bit quicker on the downwind legs... I'll improve my sailing skills")
Tuning the rig ("I'm not pointing as well on one tack... and this will improve my sailing skills")
Trading up to a quicker boat ("This boat is a bit slow for me, so if I get a new Archambault like the guys at the bar sail, I'll win more trophies... and that will improve my sailing skills")

IMO, the line between "fast cruising" and "slow racing" is razor sharp and, as should be obvious looking at my avatar, it's one I'm familiar with and like to balance on - but I can only do that after spending time on both sides and not liking either overly much - for all the reasons you mentioned.

Have fun out there!


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## blt2ski

ummmmm, last I checked, ANY DAY ON the boat, is better than a day NOT on the boat......be it a power, or sailed, or paddled or whatever style of preferably floating style boat you choose!

That is my thought........OUCH.........dang nabbit smacky, you made me think!.....OUCHY!!!!!.......gotta quit doing that, hurts my brain electron..........so where was I? oh yeah, on the boat! yep! thursday evening race, saturday race for boobies....not disCUSSing bird boobies either!

Marty


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## Classic30

blt2ski said:


> ummmmm, last I checked, ANY DAY ON the boat, is better than a day NOT on the boat......be it a power, or sailed, or paddled or whatever style of preferably floating style boat you choose!


There's one exception to that, Marty - when it's blowing like stink (let's say +30kts for argument's sake) AND cold AND raining, and all at the same time..

In THAT case, it's better to spend the day in the Clubhouse, in front of a log fire, drink in hand, talking with your crew about your last race (or cruise) as you watch the rain come down on the poor souls outside...


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## blt2ski

NO NO NO CAM!

That is when you go out there, so you have BFS stories to tell! 









THEN you go to the commodores ball that evening with a story for all them stink potters at the ball!

That is my story, and I am sticking to it some 5 or 6 yrs ago on that 2nd saturday in march......at least I was not one of the two that went aground........might even be a thread about that somewhere.........


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## CalebD

Racing, even in "non-competitive" beer can races does make you think about your rigging and rigging hardware: how to make it easier & better. 
We may race a 50 year old designed hull against newer fin keeled designed boats but that has not stopped us from upgrading the useless old traveler, getting a new loose footed main sail (w/extra roach) and lubing the 45 year old main winches regularly.
Next up: new adjustable jib fairlead tracks, new jib, completely strip hull, , , , .
It will still be a PHRF loser but we like to sail it to it's max.

Seems as though the few times we do finish in 1st are when the crew is the happiest. Not sure if the former causes the latter. Oh well.
Have fun!


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## Classic30

CalebD said:


> Racing, even in "non-competitive" beer can races does make you think about your rigging and rigging hardware: how to make it easier & better.
> We may race a 50 year old designed hull against newer fin keeled designed boats but that has not stopped us from upgrading the useless old traveler, getting a new loose footed main sail (w/extra roach) and lubing the 45 year old main winches regularly.
> Next up: new adjustable jib fairlead tracks, new jib, completely strip hull, , , , .
> It will still be a PHRF loser but we like to sail it to it's max.
> 
> *Seems as though the few times we do finish in 1st are when the crew is the happiest.* Not sure if the former causes the latter. Oh well.
> Have fun!


Funny that... "Here there be monsters!" 

Careful, Caleb. Next thing you know, the crew will be demanding a new boat. Must... try.. to... resist...


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## Minnewaska

The only way to pass another boat is seated, with a sandwich in one hand and bottle of water in the other, steering with your foot on the wheel. It is very important that the slower boat see you in this pose, so position yourself as necessary. If not lunch time, its acceptable to have your arms spread obviously across a pushpit or coaming. It's especially fulfilling when the opposing crew starts scrambling around, touching every line in their boat to no avail. Extra credit if they have numbers on their sail.


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## blt2ski

Minnewaska said:


> The only way to pass another boat is seated, with a sandwich in one hand and bottle of water in the other, steering with your foot on the wheel. It is very important that the slower boat see you in this pose, so position yourself as necessary. If not lunch time, its acceptable to have your arms spread obviously across a pushpit or coaming. It's especially fulfilling when the opposing crew starts scrambling around, touching every line in their boat to no avail. Extra credit if they have numbers on their sail.


This can be good, "IF" you are the same size to smaller. If you passed me at some 20' longer, I could give a flying rats ass that you are passing me, as you have a faster boat due to WL or equal. So at that stage, you are showing off for nothing. I could be sitting there doing as you are as you pass me eating etc, Would not matter. Now if Cam was passing me, with similar sized boats.......now that might be a bit more giving a rats ass as to what is going on.

Marty


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## happy_sailor

I always try to make the boat go as fast as possible, whether I'm cruising or racing. If I'm cruising with a group of friends I'm always the guy tweaking the vang, cunningham, jib leads etc to get a little bit better shape. I don't ask them do thing that they don't want to, because we're just cruising. I'm not like "HIKE BITCHES!" but I ask them to sit on the high side if it's comfortable.

On the other hand, plodding along with your sails luffing 90% of the time is completely slobbish, no matter how much of a cruiser you are.


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## Jeff_H

First of all, let my congratulate and thank everyone for keeping this civil. When I saw the first post on this I thought to myself, "This could get ugly!". 

To me the reality of these kinds issues have no single answer and instead simply boil down to a personal preference. Whether you elect to 'sail fast', or race, or whether you don't care about speed at all, or fall somewhere in between, is entirely a personal decision with you own individual choice falling somewhere on a very broad spectrum of possible philosophical inclinations. How you elect to sail may even vary from day to day and moment to moment for that matter. For the most part, it's nobody's business to critique other than your own. 

And yet on the internet there often is a tendency to take what should be discussions of personal preference and seemingly choose up teams, with each defending to the death the narrow segment of the spectrum that grabs them. Fortunately, that has not happened in this revealing discourse.

In reality, what most people have said is true. We typically all sail for enjoyment, and define what we consider to be enjoyable. For people like me, I enjoy sailing the boat 'smartly', sails trimmed for speed and balance. I like the mental challenge and the physicality of sailing well. I also enjoy racing. I also enjoy sailing traditional watercraft, which will not inherently fast, can be inherently mentally and physically challenging. But in each case, at least for me, the quality and experience of the sailing and the race is the end unto itself. 

For as competitive and as focused on winning as I may be during the race, I actually don't care if I didn't win after the race. In other words, my reason for racing is sailing the race well. Its been a long time and a bunch of trophies since I actually cared about the trip to the podium after the race is over. 

I have raced on some pretty high level race boats in some world class regattas, and in reality, the best racing crews are comparatively low volume affairs. There is a lot oc comminication but its done surprisingly quietly with information circulating around the boat so all know what is happening and about to happen, and all eyes gathering and feeding information and sharing it. On the best crewed boats that I have sailed on, there are no rock stars or primadonas. We are not competing for stature or attention with each other, we are all on the same team and looking out for each other. As one skipper liked to joke, a well slimed machine. 

Similarly, the reward for a fast passage time is the quality of sailing along the way, rather than the boats I pass. (Although, sometimes the reward is that its nice to arrive at an anchorage before it is full, or be able to lounge on the hook a little longer knowing that you'll get where you want to go fast enough that you have that luxury of a bit more hanging about.) 

Cheers,
Jeff


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## smackdaddy

Well said Jeff.

I think there is another aspect to doing races, especially offshore, that is very unique and challenging...and one that goes agains't the typical cruising mindset: you have to race when the race happens, fair or snotty. In other words, you have a schedule you have to keep. You can't just choose to stay on the hook.

The level of commitment to safety and smart sailing that is required by this is, to me, a good thing. As a cruiser, _having_ to go out at a specific time, even when the weather is heavy, is taboo (and for good reason). The problem is, if you always follow this sensible mantra, you never build heavy weather skills you need.

Racing is a great way to prepare for and deal with heavy weather offshore - typically with other boats in relatively close proximity if things go a bit pear shaped.

So, apart from the safety rules you have to learn and abide by in off-shore racing, you also push your abilities in a relatively safe way. Sure, you can easily push way too hard if you're into that kind of hardcore racing (e.g. - flying a chute in 35 knots straight into a chinese broach). But you can also chill a bit and learn a hell of a lot about sailing a boat through snotty stuff with a reef or two tucked in - and still working toward controlled speed.

That's all good.


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## Minnewaska

blt2ski said:


> This can be good, "IF" you are the same size to smaller. If you passed me at some 20' longer, I could give a flying rats ass that you are passing me, as you have a faster boat due to WL or equal. So at that stage, you are showing off for nothing. I could be sitting there doing as you are as you pass me eating etc, Would not matter. Now if Cam was passing me, with similar sized boats.......now that might be a bit more giving a rats ass as to what is going on.
> 
> Marty


Says you. 

Big or small, everyone being passed tries to juice it up a bit, whether futile or not. Also, LWL increases the limitation, it doesn't necessarily make you go faster. There are points of sail (eg: deep broad reach in lighter breezes), where lighter boats with smaller LWLs could and should be able to match our speed and others where we could crush even longer boats. Still, I get your point.

I will admit I just had a recent experience with a same size boat that challenged us in open water. I mean came up within 20 feet of our port side, just after we raised the main and passed us. I stayed on my feet for that one, took the lead, lost it again, then ultimately regained it and beat them by about 1000ft over 25 miles.

At first, I was going to sit and have that sandwich and let them go. But I looked over at my daughter who was aghast that we were passed and I had to get to work.


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## smackdaddy

Just remember, racing can make you look really stupid really fast:


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## outbound

I'm just learning my new boat so in no shape to race. Having said that I find it viscerally upsetting to see a boat or be on a boat that is poorly sailed. I experiment with backstay tension, luff tension, vang etc. all the time. Of course the exception is when Willy's on the box, cigar in one hand, Gin Blossom in the other, Otto the Auto at the helm, nothing on the horizon and someone else ( hopefully my pretty admiral) on watch. "Gee look how the rose color of the sun set reflects off the clouds"


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## Jeff_H

smackdaddy said:


> Just remember, racing can make you look really stupid really fast:


That is what we used to call a death roll. It can be particularly devasting if the boom has been vanged down to the toe rail. It can be even more scary if you happen to be the mast man and you happen to be hanging vertically using the vang as a trapeze, since your feet can't reach the vertical deck. And (speaking as said mastman) it only gets worse when you hear someone in the cockpit shouting, "Blow the vang! Blow the Vang!!!! Blow the vang now!!!!!!"

That is probably the reasons that old time racing crews would ask if everyone had the same number of fingers and toes as we had before the maneuver.

Jeff


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## CatMan22

So you mean the whole time I'm sailing my boat tracking you across the water, trying to keep up or pass you without you knowing it, you're basically doing the same thing? Here I thought I was the only one who played cruiser/racer out there.


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## PaulinVictoria

> We'll have plenty of water, plenty of great food, plenty of nice drinks, and every comfort we can think of short of a strap-on jacuzzi. We'll take it all "seriously" and do our best to win our division, but my primary goal is having a great time and enjoying the trip...win or lose...... whaddayathink?


What do I think? Can I come racing with you? 

I must admit, when I race I like to try and do my job and get things right (just beer can stuff mind), and when I sail my own tub, well, I still like to get things right. To me there is no excuse for not sailing a boat as efficiently as you can. I'm often out there and see other boats with really badly shaped sails, flapping around and trailing fenders. I always take the opportunity to cruise past them, coffee in hand, munching on a sandwich with my feet up whenever possible.


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## smackdaddy

Here's another angle...if you ARE one of those "hard-core racers" who spend tens of thousands of dollars on sails and gear, scream and get aggro with everyone around you, cut your crew's toothbrushes in half, look down your nose at "cruisers", and throw your attitude all over the place - _you'd better win_..._everything_. Because if you don't you might be an idiot for doing all the above.


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## happy_sailor

smackdaddy said:


> Here's another angle...if you ARE one of those "hard-core racers" who spend tens of thousands of dollars on sails and gear, scream and get aggro with everyone around you, cut your crew's toothbrushes in half, look down your nose at "cruisers", and throw your attitude all over the place - _you'd better win_..._everything_. Because if you don't you might be an idiot for doing all the above.


Agreed. Especially on the idiot part for the yelling. Most of the time the yelling crew isn't the winning crew. Granted, there is a huuuge difference between yelling "at" someone and yelling "to" someone. If I'm on the bow and I need someone to blow a halyard, I'm gonna holler that out because that's the only way they can hear me. There's so much stuff going on in the cockpit they need to be able to hear my voice to get the halyard. That's completely different that yelling "at" someone, and abusing them verbally. That's just ridiculous, and never appropriate.


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## Jeff_H

smackdaddy said:


> Here's another angle...if you ARE one of those "hard-core racers" who spend tens of thousands of dollars on sails and gear, scream and get aggro with everyone around you, cut your crew's toothbrushes in half, look down your nose at "cruisers", and throw your attitude all over the place - _you'd better win_..._everything_. Because if you don't you might be an idiot for doing all the above.


LOL....Reminds me of something out of my youth. When I was a kid, I was getting on the club launch at the same time that the then Rhodes 19 North American Champion was getting on board with his first time crew member. As the launch pulled away from the dock, Roger looks over his new crew and says quite excitedly and loudly, _"SOCKS, you're wearing SOCKS! Do you know how much SOCKS weigh?"_ And with that Roger made the crew take off his socks and empty his pockets into the socks and leave them with the launch driver.

Even back then, a Rhodes 19 was not exactly a light weight, high performance racer. But even then, the top flight sailors were detail oriented. It still makes me laugh though.

Jeff


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## mark2gmtrans

Jeff_H said:


> LOL....Reminds me of something out of my youth. When I was a kid, I was getting on the club launch at the same time that the then Rhodes 19 North American Champion was getting on board with his first time crew member. As the launch pulled away from the dock, Roger looks over his new crew and says quite excitedly and loudly, _"SOCKS, you're wearing SOCKS! Do you know how much SOCKS weigh?"_ And with that Roger made the crew take off his socks and empty his pockets into the socks and leave them with the launch driver.
> 
> Even back then, a Rhodes 19 was not exactly a light weight, high performance racer. But even then, the top flight sailors were detail oriented. It still makes me laugh though.
> 
> Jeff


Good grief, if a pair or two of socks is going to make you lose the race then you better pray a seagull does not land on the mast, it might sink the boat.


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## Ajax_MD

Smack, you're looking to do the "Race to Beer and Pizza".

There's definitely nothing wrong with that. All I recommend to you, is that when you're recruiting crew, you very clearly explain your expectations to them.

Some people might sign on, thinking that you're going to be more aggressive about winning, investing in high-tech gear, etc and be disappointed when you spend more money upgrading insulation in the beer cooler.

Conversely, you might encounter crew who think that even your laid-back style of racing is too high-strung for them. I know that sounds crazy, but it is possible, and I've run into it.

Just make sure that you, and your crew are all on the same page for maximum enjoyment, whatever your mode of racing may be.


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## smackdaddy

BubbleheadMd said:


> Smack, you're looking to do the "Race to Beer and Pizza".


Not necessarily. I personally want to be competitive in whatever division I'm in. But I absolutely do not believe that doing so will come down to a few hundred pounds of weight - or even kevlar sails.

That's the beauty of longer off-shore races - it's more about weather, routing, and long-term focus on the boat's performance than ripping out the head to save weight.

When boats in a race are separated by 100ths of a second at the finish, then I might become a believer in the typical BS and think about taking off that extra layer of insulation around the cooler.

Regardless, I'll let my crew know what's up.


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## outbound

Smack think you may have misperception. Did Newport Bermuda multihull. Cap went thro everyone s kit. Throw out a small paperback.allowed only limited clothes.very weight aware. Oh yeah we won.


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## smackdaddy

outbound said:


> Smack think you may have misperception. Did Newport Bermuda multihull. Cap went thro everyone s kit. Throw out a small paperback.allowed only limited clothes.very weight aware. Oh yeah we won.


Maybe - but you're going to have a hard time convincing me it was the paperback that made the difference.


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## Jeff_H

smackdaddy said:


> Not necessarily. I personally want to be competitive in whatever division I'm in. But I absolutely do not believe that doing so will come down to a few hundred pounds of weight - or even kevlar sails.
> 
> That's the beauty of longer off-shore races - it's more about weather, routing, and long-term focus on the boat's performance than ripping out the head to save weight.
> 
> When boats in a race are separated by 100ths of a second at the finish, then I might become a believer in the typical BS and think about taking off that extra layer of insulation around the cooler.
> 
> Regardless, I'll let my crew know what's up.


Steve,

By and large, you are right that the mistakes you make in routing, or even a sloppy tack or spinnaker raise or jibe, can cost more time than a few pounds of beer, a non-race bottom job, or a kevlar sail. But whether or not you optimize the boat, you are still going to make the same mistakes in routing, a sloppy tack or bad spinnaker raise or jibe.

Over the course of even a distance race, the kevlar sail might mean a few less sail changes or not having to reef or shake out a reef a time or two or three. The cleaned out lockers might mean a few seconds a mile. The smooth bottom might mean 8-10 seconds a mile and pointing higher or maintaining more speed through waves. Collectively over a long course these things add up to some pretty big numbers.

Its kind of like a funny thing that happened a few decades back. I always had a friend who would tell me how much faster my boat was than his, but he would also joke that if we switched boats I would probably still beat him home. We had both single-handed over to the Rhode River so I thought, why not see how that works out. He was basically right that I was able to beat him home but by a very small margin. My lead was basically the result of a tactical decision to sail to where I expected less current and the wind to fill in sooner which took me from way behind to slightly ahead.

On the other hand, and in the interest of fairness and humilty, coming back from the first Sailnet Rondezvous, one of our members with a Sabre 34 cleaned my clock. He did as great a job of putting his boat where there was breeze, as I did finding windless holes. Whenever I'd catch some breeze, I'd have more speed and I'd close the gap even pass him. But inevitably he cleaned my clock.

The temptation is to say, that these prove that a faster boat won't get you there any faster, but the reality is, in the first case, had I been in my boat, I would have beaten him by way more than I did, and vice versa in the second case, since both sailors would have sailed essentially the same course, been able to take better advantages of some of the smaller events along the way, and made essentially the same mistakes and good calls.

Jeff


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## smackdaddy

I agree with you Jeff. I'm kind of intentionally splitting hairs here because it's another important angle in the debate, I think.

In racing, so much emphasis is put on gear/sails/weight/etc. that I think it gets kind of ridiculous - at least in the context of most all "amateur" racing out there. Granted, I can definitely see where these things can make a real difference in in-shore buoy racing, especially where the boats are pretty evenly matched and finishes are counted in seconds or less. Every item counts. AND, I can totally see your point about small increments adding up to huge numbers over time in an off-shore race. That 10 seconds per mile would add up to _5 hours_ in the Race to the Border we did.

But, the problem with this idea is exactly what you point out above - these things do matter, BUT _good sailing_ is the key. Always. That's why a "hardcore racer" can look like a real idiot if he goes full bore on all the above, but continually loses because he's not very good at sailing.

I think the AC has been a great example of these kinds of differences. Is it the boat/rudders/foils that have Artemis on the ropes in every single race? Or is it their inability to really sail that boat? I think it's the latter.

So, yes, all this stuff is important. But not nearly as much as most racers think it is at the level they're racing.


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## zz4gta

Boat A and boat B are the same. In every way except weight in the rig. Boat B has a slightly lighter rig. 

Boat B wins over boat A every single time, all else being equal. 

Yes, for most, it doesn't matter at all. People will b!tch about a 3 second hit on their rating and say it's unfair as they sail off to the wrong side of the course. They'll continue to suck every week weather it is OD or PHRF. Weight won't fix the suck. 

For people who have paid pro's on board, the VOR (which I know you watch), AC, TP52 super series, or any other class that doesn't have a weight minimum, weight plays a huge role. Take a look at Sanya compared to the rest of the boats. The new boats with new sails did very well, and it was some of the closest offshore racing in history. Sanya was old all around, and it showed.


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## smackdaddy

zz4gta said:


> Weight won't fix the suck.


Bingo. This is _exactly_ what I was trying to say.

Well played my good man!

(And I totally agree with you on weight, etc. at the level of the VOR, etc. It absolutely counts there. It's just funny when most am racers try to act pro.)


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## Classic30

zz4gta said:


> Boat A and boat B are the same. In every way except weight in the rig. Boat B has a slightly lighter rig.
> 
> Boat B wins over boat A every single time, all else being equal.


The big assumption is that both skippers/crews and equally as good, both tactically and in boat-handling, and that the wind is equally as certain across the course - and in real life (ie. outside of the top eschelon of yacht racing) that is never true at all... it's a marketing gimmick, pushed by sail-makers and boat-builders, the likes of BeneHuntalina and Elan especially in glossy yachting magazines.

This was reinforced to me only a few weeks back when one of the guys who crews in our Classics races (and happens to own an old Bavaria for family cruising) called around a select few of us one day and said "how'd you like to come out in my boat in the Wednesday afternoon races?" because his regular crew couldn't make it. It was a nice day, flat water and steady winds and the four of us who turned up to crew for him all had our own Classics and, I guess, at least 100 years of combined experience in yacht racing of all kinds. Although we had never sailed together before (only against each other in completely different yachts) we all knew each other's capabilities in race tactics and boat-handling and we pushed this old cruiser around the course with a minimum of fuss, and no yelling - just wind-shift calls and faultless team-work. Needless to say, we won that day.

So: Boat B *never* wins over boat A *every single time*, because, outside of an environment as controlled as pure Class Racing like the AC or the Olympics, all else isn't equal and never is.


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## SchockT

For years I have raced with a core group of sailors on various boats. We campaigned a variety of boats over the years and were pretty successful for the most part. I remember once we were asked by another club member if we would do some racing with his crew and help them get up to speed. He had caught the racing bug, and was looking to get his boat to the "next level". It was a reasonably well maintained boat with passable sails, and there was no reason he couldn't win the occasional race in the phrf fleet. One race he agreed to give us free reign to do it our way, so we showed up on the boat early and began a purge. When we were done there was a big heap of stuff piled up on the dock. Everything from canned food and cast iron frying pans to a variety of power tools. We must have taken 200lbs of unnecessary crap off the boat, and we didn't exactly strip the boat. All of a sudden the boat was keeping up with the fleet! The owner was convinced and became much more conscious of what he was keeping on board, and his boat became progressively faster until he was routinely at the front of the pack.

If you want to sail around the race course and drink beer while looking at all the pretty sails in front of you, that's great. If you want to play WITH all the pretty sails then you have to get smart and realize that weight plays a big factor. You don't have to go over the top and be a "weight nazi", just get rid of the junk!

Even where you stow the gear you do have on board makes a difference. When we are racing we are very conscious of where the weight is. All the crew's gear bags are piled up at the base of the mast along with extra sails. We keep as much weight out of the ends of the boat as we can. Yes, even the anchor gets removed from the bow in many cases; from a racing perspective that is the worst place to keep it for a variety of reasons. Weight trim is just as important as weight reduction.


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## Classic30

SchockT said:


> If you want to sail around the race course and drink beer while looking at all the pretty sails in front of you, that's great. If you want to play WITH all the pretty sails then you have to get smart and realize that weight plays a big factor. You don't have to go over the top and be a "weight nazi", just get rid of the junk!
> 
> Even where you stow the gear you do have on board makes a difference. When we are racing we are very conscious of where the weight is. All the crew's gear bags are piled up at the base of the mast along with extra sails. We keep as much weight out of the ends of the boat as we can. Yes, even the anchor gets removed from the bow in many cases; from a racing perspective that is the worst place to keep it for a variety of reasons. Weight trim is just as important as weight reduction.


All too true. On the subject of trim: After buying the boat, emptying all the crap out (there was an old rusty dinghy anchor in the bilge - and I don't even have a dinghy!) and wondering why she felt sluggish, I discovered that *adding* 200kgs of ballast up forward of the mast got the trim right and the boat moving quicker..

..but then there's a big difference between my boat and yours and a lightweight flyer.


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## oysterman23

agree with room to race while cruising which after all is in the spirit of the original thing and those boats are really somethin as racers but did you see handholds or shelter anywhere on deck on that boat? When water starts comin on deck (and it will) you do not want to be trying to work your way forward to make a repair etc. In fact staying at the helm looks damned exposed....these aspects of the new boats trouble my instincts right or wrong.... sorry if this is off thread


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## SchockT

oysterman23 said:


> agree with room to race while cruising which after all is in the spirit of the original thing and those boats are really somethin as racers but did you see handholds or shelter anywhere on deck on that boat? When water starts comin on deck (and it will) you do not want to be trying to work your way forward to make a repair etc. In fact staying at the helm looks damned exposed....these aspects of the new boats trouble my instincts right or wrong.... sorry if this is off thread


Which boats are you referring to?

There is something to be said for the clean open decks of a performance boat. There is nothing worse than cluttered decks covered in tripping hazards. When you are racing you don't want to hide behind a dodger. Yes the helm positions tend to be exposed but they also have good sight lines which are pretty important when you are pushing a boat hard.


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## zz4gta

Classic30 said:


> So: Boat B *never* wins over boat A *every single time*, because, outside of an environment as controlled as pure Class Racing like the AC or the Olympics, all else isn't equal and never is.


Thank you for stating the obvious.


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## oysterman23

Schock your points understood ...not criticizing design for racing and im withdrawing the comment rather have to endlessly qualify it. I was not specific enough at the get go


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## Ajax_MD

smackdaddy said:


> I agree with you Jeff. I'm kind of intentionally splitting hairs here because it's another important angle in the debate, I think.
> 
> In racing, so much emphasis is put on gear/sails/weight/etc. that I think it gets kind of ridiculous - at least in the context of most all "amateur" racing out there. Granted, I can definitely see where these things can make a real difference in in-shore buoy racing, especially where the boats are pretty evenly matched and finishes are counted in seconds or less. Every item counts. AND, I can totally see your point about small increments adding up to huge numbers over time in an off-shore race. That 10 seconds per mile would add up to _5 hours_ in the Race to the Border we did.
> 
> But, the problem with this idea is exactly what you point out above - these things do matter, BUT _good sailing_ is the key. Always. That's why a "hardcore racer" can look like a real idiot if he goes full bore on all the above, but continually loses because he's not very good at sailing.
> 
> I think the AC has been a great example of these kinds of differences. Is it the boat/rudders/foils that have Artemis on the ropes in every single race? Or is it their inability to really sail that boat? I think it's the latter.
> 
> So, yes, all this stuff is important. But not nearly as much as most racers think it is at the level they're racing.


The condensed version of what you're saying here, is and has been my philosophy:

Make good Indians, _then_ give them good arrows.
(crew proficiency before fancy gear)

Last year, we spent one series in the non-spin division, stalled out in 3-5kts of breeze, but the crew got proficient with the white sails.

Next, I bought a crappy spinnaker for $150 and entered us in PHRF C.
The crew got pretty proficient with it. Never a shrimp, never an hourglass or a forestay wrap. We needed to get better at gybing though.

Now, I have a better spinnaker, a kevlar 155% genoa, and a high-tech jib halyard that zzgta made for me.

As my Indians get to be better hunters, I buy them better arrows.
Next year, I hope to improve the quality of the boat's bottom.


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## smackdaddy

Some good info on the water issue from CD and Coquina:



Cruisingdad said:


> No way. Surely that was in jest.
> 
> We, as cruisers with kids and a fat Bulldog don't go through anywhere NEAR that much water... even with showers and washing dishes in fresh water. Realistically, we can make it 14 days @135g with good conservation. Good conservation is salt water washes, fresh water rinses, and very brief showers which likely wont be everyday. If we take showers everyday and fresh water washes and are generally non-conservative, we are about 10-12 days. If we had to, we could push the two week limit (and if we were crossing the ocean, we would have to). In the marina, we can go under the 12 days - esp if the kids do the dishes.
> 
> Now, in fairness, we do drink gatorades and keep water bottles around for hikes or outings. But we also drink alcoholic beverages and we will generally keep a 5g bucket of water with ammonia in it for washing which could get refilled depending on spaghetti-to-mouth malfunctions. SO realistic numbers are 8g/day for us pretty conservative but comfortable. This will include the periodic showers and fresh water rinses for dishes. Also, as you increase the people, you can decrease some of the water/pp. THis is because a single person may still have to fill the 5g bucket of fresh water or the sink for rinses. But that same water can be used by others without decreasing the supply.
> 
> You also need to add into this discussion (as Jane pointed out) that you will be getting water from foods. If you eat a can of brothy soup, you probably are not going to drink a large cup of water afterwards. SO depending on the foods (excluding alcohol, that is ridiculous), you may not use as much water. Also, your suggestion for a 10 day reserve on top of that is ludicrous. Using your numbers, some boats may not even carry 10 days worth of water for that crew!
> 
> Regarding the watermaker, there is no way in Hades that I would have the lives of my crew dependent on a mechanical piece of equipment that could fail without warning. Like Nick did, I would have it as a backup, not as a primary use. If he says he can do it, and has done it, on 1g of water/person - I will take his word for it. THat would not be my comfort level, but with severe conservation, I can see how that could work (also including food/soups and excluding alcohol).
> 
> My opinion (and real life experience).
> 
> Brian





Coquina said:


> Offshore you wash things in SALT water. Fresh is only for a rinse. Joy soap is famous for sudsing in salt water  Most old-time watermaker-less cruisers only showered when nature provided the shower during a rainstorm. You can catch a LOT of water during rainstorms too if you have a good setup. If you just HAVE to clean yourself, a wipedown can be done with a washcloth and around a quart of water.


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## zz4gta

As far as racing goes, if you want water you wash in ocean water. Only did that once in a 4 day race. Most of the time it's baby wipes = no water.


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## smackdaddy

Same here. I always have a pack or two of wipes in my go-bag. They work great. The water is for cooking and drinking.

Here's a question - on the boat I've been racing on we typically do these awesome home-made frozen meals in a freezer/boiler bag. You just get a pot of water going, throw the bag of chow and a bag of rice in - then serve hot. This has been some amazing food (shrimp bisque, red beans and rice with sausage, spaghetti, ravioli, etc.).

I assume you can use saltwater for the boiling since the food is in the bags (won't transfer more salt into them) - but am not sure about that. Any advice?


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## RTB

smackdaddy said:


> I assume you can use saltwater for the boiling since the food is in the bags (won't transfer more salt into them) - but am not sure about that. Any advice?


Not sure, but you will need to carry an extra pound or two of propane, since the boiling point is higher for salt water. Probably not a great idea if you are a serious racer....

Hey, you said home - made frozen meals in a freezer/boiler bag. Yum! where do I order these?  About the rice, it depends on what you are using. My wife says that with some of the rice in bags, the bag is permeable. Could be a problem.

Hey man, let me know if you need crew for the Harvest Moon Regatta next year! I'll fly in, cause I miss Texas!

Ralph


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## smackdaddy

RTB said:


> Not sure, but you will need to carry an extra pound or two of propane, since the boiling point is higher for salt water. Probably not a great idea if you are a serious racer....
> 
> Hey, you said home - made frozen meals in a freezer/boiler bag. Yum! where do I order these?  About the rice, it depends on what you are using. My wife says that with some of the rice in bags, the bag is permeable. Could be a problem.
> 
> Hey man, let me know if you need crew for the Harvest Moon Regatta next year! I'll fly in, cause I miss Texas!
> 
> Ralph


Just remember, they don't call me "Crazy Harry" for nothing.


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## RTB

So, if I ever sail with you, do I call you "Crazy Harry"? Lol. So, you guys had a working freezer on Blame It On Buffett? Cool! Sounds like the boat to be on. You lucked out finding that boat to crew on. How did that come about, if I may ask?

It sounds way better than crewing on Rhapsody.

Ralph


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## smackdaddy

RTB said:


> So, if I ever sail with you, do I call you "Crazy Harry"? Lol. So, you guys had a working freezer on Blame It On Buffett? Cool! Sounds like the boat to be on.
> 
> Ralph


Dude it was absolutely awesome. The kicker is _we won _on BIOB...AND had great food and great fun!


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## Classic30

smackdaddy said:


> I assume you can use saltwater for the boiling since the food is in the bags (won't transfer more salt into them) - but am not sure about that. Any advice?


I think you'll find you can.

We've often used saltwater to boil veggies in and to wash up afterwards (with a final freshwater rinse), but it's a good idea to restrict this practice to a mile or three offshore..


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## abrahamx

Sounds good to me.


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## Ajax_MD

Classic30 said:


> I think you'll find you can.
> 
> We've often used saltwater to boil veggies in and to wash up afterwards (with a final freshwater rinse), but it's a good idea to restrict this practice to a mile or three offshore..


That's what I was thinking. No way, would I use ocean water for cooking unless I was a couple of miles offshore.


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## TJC45

With regard to prepping the boat for racing I'm definately with the let's not take it to the extreme crowd. IMO, within hard core amateur racing there is a certain amount of propaganda buy-in going on. No doubt, that all things being equal, a well prepared, lite weight boat will sail faster than a lesser prepared heavier boat. But there's the rub! As pointed out, all things are never equal. Usually, sailing mistakes, or even luck enters into the picture and erases whatever advantages the perfectly prepared boat has on the rest of the fleet. Being in the right place to take advantage of a wind shift, perfectly timing the start, perfectly executing every tack and gybe. sailing a perfect course, not overstanding the lay line etc etc etc. All factors in the finshing position. And, neatly explains why, for example in some parts, the J22 that is kept on a mooring in the river, is a contender with the shinny bottomed J's that get lifted in and out of the water for every race.


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## smackdaddy

^^^Bingo.


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## CBinRI

We cruised and day-sailed for years before ever even trying a race. Each year of racing we did slightly better until we were very competitive. As a result of no longer being terrible and having an interesting boat, we were able to eventually get some top-notch sailors to race with us on a regular basis and our skills have improved exponentially, But the bottom line is that it is a helluva lotta fun. It gets the juices flowing, gives you another reason to get out on the water on a regular basis and gives you a great opportunity to bond with your crew. Racing is great and I wouldn't trade it for anything.


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## blt2ski

48° North Sailing Magazine - September 2013

Not sure which page will show up, but cruisers and racers alike enjoyed this day.....I even got to be center pic on page 60! oh and page 61 tells more about said phun race! Both ways ie cruising and racing are ways to enjoy ones boat! or one can fish off of it too, maybe waterski if it is fast enough, with enough wind........

Marty


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## SchockT

TJC45 said:


> And, neatly explains why, for example in some parts, the J22 that is kept on a mooring in the river, is a contender with the shinny bottomed J's that get lifted in and out of the water for every race.


That hasn't been my experience. Around here the one design fleets see a distinct advantage between dry sailed and wet sailed boats in the same fleet. In fleets where the competition is tight dry sailed is faster.

When it comes to PHRF fleets it is not as critical, but it still makes a difference. When it really becomes noticeable is when one boat starts an "arms race" by getting serious about weight. There is a Catalina 27 in our club who did that; He removed so much weight from his boat that it sat 2" higher in the water than any other C27 in the club, and he dominates them, along with most other boats in his division. Yes he is a good sailor with good crew, but so are many of his competitors. The big difference is the boat is just plain faster on all points of sail.

As long as all your competitors agree to leave the cast iron frying pans and canned food on board you will be fine, but if others take the weight off and you don't, you will be at a serious disadvantage.


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## CBinRI

Sometimes I feel like the weight thing is overblown (at least in PHRF racing) and it may seem more important than it is because the guy who strips out his cruising gear also tends to be the guy who gets his bottom cleaned, gets new sails and really concentrates on trim and improving his technique. 

I also tend to be a more the merrier type of guy in terms of crew. Of course, my boat is heavy to begin with.


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## smackdaddy

CBinRI said:


> Sometimes I feel like the weight thing is overblown (at least in PHRF racing) and it may seem more important than it is because the guy who strips out his cruising gear also tends to be the guy who gets his bottom cleaned, gets new sails and really concentrates on trim and improving his technique.


I think this is it.


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## zz4gta

CBinRI said:


> Sometimes I feel like the weight thing is overblown (at least in PHRF racing) and it may seem more important than it is because the guy who strips out his cruising gear also tends to be the guy who gets his bottom cleaned, gets new sails and really concentrates on trim and improving his technique.


+2 it's not just the weight, it's the attitude that every little bit adds up to a big difference in performance.


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## chucklesR

Ya'll just remember that despite SmackDaddy saying he'd have everything short of a strap on jacuzzi, he could have that too if he'd followed my advice and gotten a center cockpit. 

Then he could in fact have had the jacuzzi and sat in it too. If you are going to slow race, do it in style. 

I enjoy beer can races, it hones my style. Little sport boats make nice crunchy noises, if you listen closely.


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## smackdaddy

I could still do it. Since the H40 has a very seamanly "top-down" companionway entry, I've got about 18" of jacuzzi love in the cockpit if I just put a slice of salami over each drain. Run a tee off the exhaust hose up into the cockpit and BOOM! bubbles!


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## chucklesR

What you do with salami and your drains should stay in Texas.


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## zz4gta

well played chuck.  well played indeed...


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## emcentar

This a great thread, by the way.

I've been a runner much longer than I've been a sailor and I've watched sadly as all my casual running friends from my twenties and thirties have turned into hard-core Ironmen triathletes. Ironman training turns perfectly fun individuals into friends who can't ever meet you for a drink because they have to get up at 5 am to train, can't meet you for dinner because they are on a new diet, and aren't interested in talking about anything except their new $13,000 titanium bike seat.

Me, I run because I love to run through the woods by myself and it makes bourbon taste better in the evening. 

I sail for very similar reasons.

I love to go fast, but because it's fun. When the one-design-with-strap-on-jacuzzi race is established, sign me up. 

E.


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## Alex W

emcenter: Just as there are fun runs that are good for people who aren't so hard core, there are fun races for those who aren't so hard core, but do want to be competitive.

In Seattle I raced the Duck Dodge and Goose Bumps races for the last two years. A couple of races in you learn who is about your speed and who is a bit faster. Then you just try to beat the ones who are a bit faster and still have fun at the raft up afterwords. I never "win" (there are boats 50 points better in PHRF racing in our category), but it's pretty much always fun.

The Pink Boat Regatta article that Marty listed is a lot of the same people.

This last spring we did do PHRF racing, but in the cruiser category where they try to adjust for extra gear on the boat and where half of the boats are non-flying. It was a lot of fun.


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## ScottUK

> fun races for those who aren't so hard core, but do want to be competitive.


I'm with you on that. Now... STAY UP!!!!


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## SchockT

Funny you should mention hot tubs! Our club hosted a regatta this weekend and one of the racing teams brought one with them! They had the good sense to leave it on the dock when they raced! (Apparently it doesn't tow very well!) It is floating on 2 inflatable pontoons that look like they came from one of those fishing platforms, and it has a self contained propane heater and pump!










There is a time for racing and a time for hot tub...best of both worlds!

When I left at 1:30am the party was still going strong!


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