# Halyard Stretch



## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Have been looking at the idea of all-rope halyards. It seems that there may be an error in the usual discussion over the amount of stretch in lines and an error in the way I have been thinking about rope for halyards. Line manufacturers use a % at load figure in their advertizing, like .7% stretch at 10% of rated load. This is a bit misleading. Once stretched with, say 500# of winch tension, the line will then stretch by an *unknown* amount. The line IS at its stretched length already. Any further stretch would only occur if more tension is loaded along the length of the line. Is there more load when the sail pulls? How much? I don't see much additional tension at all. Subsequent load it would seem is mostly on the slides, pulling at a right angle. Wind-induced tension is on the mast and slides not along the length of the halyard. So, the stretch argument seems to be a non-issue as long as the initial tensioning is enough to stretch the luff of the sail to its intended shape. Sails, of course, are sewn with the luff tensioned so as long as this tension is reached and maintained, the sail will maintain its shape. Can anyone shed any more light on this?


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## capttb (Dec 13, 2003)

When I raise the main in light airs the halyard tension is fairly low as is outhaul to produce a fuller shape. As the winds increase and halyard stretchs the main will start to "pucker" in between the slides. Additional tension is then needed to flatten along the luff. I don't know that I could put 500 lbs tension on to start, and since the line has a working load of 4 times that it would be about 25% of the lines stretch.
I'm probably unclear, but end result is all rope halyards appear to stretch and loosen as sail pressures increase unless you were overtensioned to start with.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Yes, that's what I'm questioning. If a sail has a bolt rope designed to be tensioned at X lbs., that is the right amount of tension to crank up when bending it on. I am wondering if there really is much additional stretch. The luff of the sail itself and the halyard are both at the same initial tension. How much overall stretch occurs after the initial tensioning and whether there is a significant difference between the percentage of overall stretch under additional load between wire/Amsteel/Technora, etc. vs a good piece of line with a higher stretch factor such as VPC or XLS. These companies want to get big bucks marketing high tech lines. I'm just wondering if there really is a significant, practical difference.

If I don't have enough initial luff tension, it makes a noticeable difference in close-hauled performance. I still have a wire-rope halyard. Am just wondering if using a "stretchier" rope halyard would result in not being able to maintain that tension.


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## capttb (Dec 13, 2003)

I've used XLS for halyards and it's OK but stretch is quite noticeable, on a cruising boat you just luff the main and tighten up and you can achieve the required tension. This weekend I crewed on a boat with very low stretch lines and when winds increased we did need to tighten on a windward leg. The stretch seemed about 1/3 to 1/2 of what I'd have expected from XLS under similar conditions. It was a 2 man job while racing because without luffing the main 1 guy had to sweat it at the mast while the other winched.
Stretch is a sliding scale as you pointed out, the percentage increases with load, so it really sticks out to you when you first switch from wire where the wire basically don't stretch at all.
There is a significant difference but doesn't seem worth the additional price for cruising.


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## deltaten (Oct 10, 2012)

So....
Anything beyond "normal" sail tension requirements is overkill? How/where does one find that particular specification?
IOW..using more than required tension = BAD. What? Go30% beyond listed tension reqs for working load on halyard/other lines? 100%? 300%?
Inquiring minds wanna know


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

smurphny said:


> Yes, that's what I'm questioning. If a sail has a bolt rope designed to be tensioned at X lbs., that is the right amount of tension to crank up when bending it on. I am wondering if there really is much additional stretch. The luff of the sail itself and the halyard are both at the same initial tension. How much overall stretch occurs after the initial tensioning and whether there is a significant difference between the percentage of overall stretch under additional load between wire/Amsteel/Technora, etc. vs a good piece of line with a higher stretch factor such as VPC or XLS. These companies want to get big bucks marketing high tech lines. I'm just wondering if there really is a significant, practical difference.
> 
> If I don't have enough initial luff tension, it makes a noticeable difference in close-hauled performance. I still have a wire-rope halyard. Am just wondering if using a "stretchier" rope halyard would result in not being able to maintain that tension.


I've had wire, Stay-Set, and Kevlar halyards. If the sail and boat were designed for them, they all work fine.

Wire. Stays tight, tough on sheaves, hard to handle if no rope tail. But you know that part.

Stay-Set. For most cruisers it's fine. Yes, if the wind pipes up you might need to put a turn on the winch when wire or high-mod line would stay tight, but generally not. 90% of the time you can just winch it up tight and forget it. If you use a cuningham you will better served by wire or Kevlar that will stretch a polyester halyard too much. Expereince.

Kevlar/high-mod. Very nice and should outlast polyester. The only comment is that you must inspect the masthead and sheave for sharp spots caused by the wire.

---

Two personal observations: Don't spilice the end, just tie it on with a halyard knot or equivalent, either straight to the sail or to the screw shackle of your choise (no snap shackles). There will be some abrasion and this way you can trim a few feet every few years; don't buy Stay-Set X because the stuff still stretches and handles poorly to boot.


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

This is why I really like my wire / rope (spliced) halyards. Low stretch.


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## capttb (Dec 13, 2003)

> IOW..using more than required tension = BAD. What? Go30% beyond listed tension reqs for working load on halyard/other lines? 100%? 300%?


Because mainsail draft and depth are controlled by halyard and outhaul (ignoring the effects of vang, traveller and cunningham for now) there is no set tension other than balancing the 2 to create the shape you want. Some guys mark their halyards, first mark up to ten kts, second mark 10 to 15,etc. 
Overtensioned is going to reduce draft and move it forward if outhaul tension matches, if outhaul too loose for halyard tension you get a wrinkle (sp?) running from luff to clew.
So, less tension the draft is deeper and farther forward for lighter airs, more tension the opposite to depower the main. You can sail in light airs with a drum tight main, it's just slower because your not getting the most out of the main for the conditions.
I've already committed myself as being more knowledgable than I care too here, as you get used to a boat you develop a feel for what tensions will produce the sail shape you want for conditions.
I'm NOT a sail trim expert but shape is everything, look at the sail, wrinkles, bags, sags means you got something wrong. Draft and shape on main and headsail should be pretty well matched up and balanced.


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

The other problem with stretch is variation when you want it least - for example, the wind strength increases, the halyard stretches, and the sail gets fuller - exactly when you wanted it to get less full, not more. This might be a worse problem in jib sheets, but I'm sure it affects the halyards too.


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## capttb (Dec 13, 2003)

I think there are 2 reasons we don't notice stretch on sheets as much as halyards Mark. First the halyard is twice as long so more stretch which is manifested by scallops along the luff and screams STRETCH ! Stretch on jib sheets is seen by breaking telltales or leech flutter and we just crank it in without differentiating whether caused from stretch or wind shift.
It does work just as you described and more bothersome at first but you adjust to it, and it only takes a minute to luff the main and tighten up.


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

When I first installed my 2 line (per reef) reefing system, I used ordinary XLS line for the tack lines. The first time I tensioned the main halyard, I watched with alarm as the tack rose by 6 inches due to stretch in the tack reefing line. So I switched to a low stretch line - no change at all. There really is that much difference.

So why don't people like wire / rope halyards? One seems to be wear on the winches if the wire part is too long. Simple fix, have the wire part the right length!


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

For whatever it's worth the wire is supposed to go on to the winch. The wire to rope splice is nowhere near as strong as the wire itself so it should not be above the winch. If your reefing line isn't tensioned enough to bring the clew to the gooseneck then crank on it a little more.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

That's great info guys. Thanks. I have always been happy with my wire-rope halyard. It could stand replacing so I was considering going to all rope. I think you've answered my question. If there is noticeable movement and the need to continually adjust, it's a non-starter.

Yes, my wire goes to the winch. These ARE wire winches on the old Albergs. When I replace the halyard I'll also make the wire long enough to reach the winch when the sail is first-reefed. It is not now and these boats need reefing down quite often.


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

The wire to rope splice may not be as strong as the wire, but it only has to be as strong as the rope (we are, after all, discussing whether to replace wire/rope with all rope) which it will be if done properly. It'll also be stronger than any knot at the head of the sail, unless an eye is spliced in. 

You aren't going to get any grip with a wire around a winch, and it will cause lots of wear.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

There are some styles of line that have very little stretch, like wire, but are pricey. If as mentioned, you do not want stretch, go wire, or go with a low(est) stretch line you can afford etc.

Recently, someone on here went with a Sta set, or slightly higher version, but it was recommended he go with a lower stretch line yet. he did not and did not seem to happy about.

Marty


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

XLS Extra is a pretty nice option for halyards that is double (instead of 3-4x) the price of XLS/Sta-Set while having much lower stretch.

XLS: Samson-The Strongest Name in Rope, XLS
2.2% stretch at 20% of breaking

XLS Extra: Samson-The Strongest Name in Rope, XLS EXTRA T
0.8% stretch at 20% of breaking

Retail pricing for 3/8" line is about $1.55/ft vs $0.81/ft for XLS or $2.66 for Warpspeed. XLS Extra is not as strong as Warpspeed, but the stretch characteristics are similar to Warpspeed and it's a whole lot cheaper.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

A mast winch that was not designed for wire should definitely not be used with 7 X 19 wire halyards. The wire will destroy the winch quickly and will not grab like it should. There is no problem at all with wire on a winch as long as it is the right winch. If the wire is in good shape, with no broken strands to rip your hands up, it is not difficult using it around the winch. 

Making the wire longer in order to reach when reefed is really impossible, come to think about it, because it would be impossible to wrap the wire on a cleat. Back to the rope idea. 

Here's an idea: 40' - 1/4" Dyneema 12 strand w/ an end to end splice joining 50' or so of 7/16" Tenex 12 strand which has good strength, fairly low stretch, and will grab on the winch. It will also be easy to grip. I wonder about joining different diameter 12 strands??? They could certainly be eye-eye spliced.


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

If you're only going to buy 2 good halyards, make them your jib and main. There are lots of reasons to use low stretch rope halyards. Wear, stored energy, visual inspection, weight, etc.

If you like using wire halyards keep doing it. But after using low stretch line, I would never go back to wire or spec it out for any job. There's just too many other options out there that are better.


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

smurphny said:


> Here's an idea: 40' - 1/4" Dyneema 12 strand w/ an end to end splice joining 50' or so of 7/16" Tenex 12 strand which has good strength, fairly low stretch, and will grab on the winch. It will also be easy to grip. I wonder about joining different diameter 12 strands??? They could certainly be eye-eye spliced.


I'm doing exactly this for a member of this site as a jib halyard. I'm using 3/8" sta-set to 1/4" dyneema for a few feet, then down to 1/8" dyneema to fit in his wire sheeves. The fat end rope will go around the winch and cleat in practice, leaving the light low stretch halyard in the mast when sailing.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

zz4gta said:


> If you're only going to buy 2 good halyards, make them your jib and main. There are lots of reasons to use low stretch rope halyards. Wear, stored energy, visual inspection, weight, etc.
> 
> If you like using wire halyards keep doing it. But after using low stretch line, I would never go back to wire or spec it out for any job. There's just too many other options out there that are better.


I've seen this drawing. It leads back to my original question: Is the halyard in this theoretical comparison already tensioned/stretched with the winch and at what tension? If there is 100-200-300??? lbs on the luff rope already, how much more will the line stretch with another X% tension exerted by wind? The stretch they advertize is from 0 tension to 10% and 20%. If they started with a low luff tension the relative stretch could be overstated. The use of the term "up to" leads me to think that means from 0. It would take some curves plotted at different tensions with inches of stretch along one side to do a good comparison. Then you could tell exactly how much stretch, in inches or mm, would occur between X tension and Y tension. If I put 400# on with a winch and the wind then adds tension along the luff (which would be VERY difficult to quantify) then the line would stretch a known amount from the added amount.


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## knuterikt (Aug 7, 2006)

smurphny said:


> Here's an idea: 40' - 1/4" Dyneema 12 strand w/ an end to end splice joining 50' or so of 7/16" Tenex 12 strand which has good strength, fairly low stretch, and will grab on the winch. It will also be easy to grip. I wonder about joining different diameter 12 strands??? They could certainly be eye-eye spliced.


This guy has already done this http://l-36.com/halyard_splice.php


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

smurphny,

I found the the lbs, 500 with 8mm line in less than 10secs looking at that photo ZZ shows. Assuming 30', a 1.8% stretch is about 5.5-6". The .03 is less than .1". That is using the rope/line in that info. 

Marty


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

That's a really complicated splice, joining two different lays- a 12 strand to a braided core line. Looks like it works. The one I am thinking of should be less complicated, being both 12 strand line. My main concern is with the different diameters and whether it would work joining 1/4" to 7/16". It can always be heavily oversewn, which I would do in any case. The 12 strand splice is pretty easy:http://www.samsonrope.com/splicing-pdfs/12Strand_C1_End%20for%20End_JUL2012_WEB.pdf


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

blt2ski said:


> smurphny,
> 
> I found the the lbs, 500 with 8mm line in less than 10secs looking at that photo ZZ shows. Assuming 30', a 1.8% stretch is about 5.5-6". The .03 is less than .1". That is using the rope/line in that info.
> 
> Marty


Is that 500# from 0#? I think it is. BUT you tension the halyard BEFORE the wind hits it and adds X load and some unknown amount of stretch. It is already stretched. How much further will it stretch? That does not show on the drawing. All it tells you is that from no tension at all, the lines will stretch a certain percentage over 30' with a 500# load. It doesn't indicate how far the line will stretch with a 2-3-400# load already on it when bending on the sail.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

I see it as when initially tightened to say 500 lbs, the halyard stretches that amount, then if you load another 500 lbs, then it stretches that amount again......but could be wrong..........have been before, probably will be again. It would take quite a bit of wind per say to stretch it double. as the initial setting should handle winds up to say 20 knots, then from 20-40 knots how much more load will get added, then one has to pull tighter. This also shows that lower stretch ropes will not sag etc as much. 

Not sure I have said this all correct or not.....

Marty


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

Part of the issue is that line stretches faster as the load increases. So the stretch from the first 10% or load is actually less than the stretch from the second 10%. This accelerates as the loads increase, so the higher the load the more the relative stretch. 

Secondly. Dyneema lines are actually the cheapest when selected for breaking strength. If we assume you need a line with 5,000lbs of breaking strength, Amsteel will be cheaper than the same size wire, sta-set, or other poly lines. 

Just as an example... To get a line with 5k lbs breaking strength your options are:
1) 3/16 amsteel blue at $1.08 a foot
2) 7/16 sta-set at $1.78 a foot
3) 3/8 sta-set x at $1.21 a foot

Given that high tech lines also have significant other advantages going with 'cheap' lines is both a performance downgrade and costs more.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Stumble said:


> Part of the issue is that line stretches faster as the load increases. So the stretch from the first 10% or load is actually less than the stretch from the second 10%. This accelerates as the loads increase, so the higher the load the more the relative stretch.
> 
> Secondly. Dyneema lines are actually the cheapest when selected for breaking strength. If we assume you need a line with 5,000lbs of breaking strength, Amsteel will be cheaper than the same size wire, sta-set, or other poly lines.
> 
> ...


That's exactly what I've been wondering about Greg. Do you have a link to the data on that? It seems counter-intuitive that a line would stretch a greater percentage form 500# to 600# than from 0 to 100#. In that first loading from 0 it would seem that all the small voids and twist would account for much more initial stretch. It just seems as if line would become more resistant as more force was applied.


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

Ok, a few answers here:

- Class II end to end splice with double braid, is it hard? Yes, it takes careful planning and it can only usually be done with CORES of line that are close in size. Allen (the guys page in your link) uses 1/4" double braid spliced to 1/8" single braid. Notice how the core of the double braid is very close in size to the 1/8" dyneema. The core is probably 3/16" or close to it. Makes it a lot easier. If you try splice 1/4" line to 7/16" it probably won't work. As you won't be able to bury the larger core into the smaller core. This is why I'm adding a short length of 1/4" dyneema between the 3/8" double braid and the 1/8" dyneema for the halyard I'm doing.

-continuous line furling splice are not load bearing and are typically made by removing about a foot of core from each end, and just splicing the covers into one another. Very easy, but not load bearing.

-Stretch in relation to load measured in % of breaking strength. First you need to understand what that means. It's not easy to grasp but it is self explanatory. Load is load. Either from raising the sail, preloading the luff, or from wind, an elephant hanging off the halyard, doesn't friggin matter. 500# is 500#. Don't over think it. Line and wire rope are typically measure in % of breaking strength to work out acceptable working loads. Working loads are usually 1/3 to ¼ of the tensile strength (breaking load). This gives you a safety factor of 3 or 4 to account for chafe, UV damage, improper sheave diameter etc. Blocks are the same way. They have a SWL (standard or safe working load) and a breaking strength. You should always stay within the SWL of all hardware and lines. Really smart engineers came up with these numbers.

-A link to this info? It's all over every retail internet store on the web. Defender for example: http://www.defender.com/images/AmSteel-Blue.png
This clearly shows the stretch at % of breaking strength. For 1/8" amsteel breaking strength is 2,500 lbs. That means 10% is 250 lbs and it will stretch 0.46%. Lets say you have a halyard that's 100' long. It will stretch 0.46' when it's loaded to 250 lbs. That's 5.52". At 20% load (500lbs) it'll stretch 0.7% which is 0.7' or 8.4" over 100'. 30% (750 lbs) will stretch .96% or 11.52" over the same 100' run.

I don't know about your boat, but if I lower a halyard 6" on my boat it really facks up the sail shape.

Edit: btw, I would never spec out a 1/8" halyard for a run of 100' from the head of a sail to the cleated point. That would be seriously undersized, but the 100 number made the math easy. 

Edit #2: 
Note: 

Stretch is different than creep. Stretch is elongation when a load is applied, the line goes back to it's original dimensions when you remove the load.
Creap is permenant elongation after a load is applied. Which is why dyneema (SK60 and SK75) is not good for standing rigging. You should use SK78 SK90 or Dynex Dux, which has been pretensioned and heat treated to eliminate much of the creap. This is also why I recommend vectran for upwind halyards, so you don't need to keep retensioning the main halyard every 8 hours while racing.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

You can look it up for most line (and I wouldn't buy line from manufacturers who don't publish this info). Here are a couple of examples from Samson:
XLS: Samson-The Strongest Name in Rope, XLS
1.5% at 10%, 2.2% at 20%, 2.9% at 30%

XLS Extra: Samson-The Strongest Name in Rope, XLS EXTRA
0.5% at 10%, 0.8% at 20%, 1% at 30%

Amsteel Blue: Samson-The Strongest Name in Rope, AMSTEEL-BLUE
0.46% at 10%, 0.7% at 20%, 0.96% at 30%

Note that these numbers agree with your intuition, not Greg's statement.

One downside of using Amsteel Blue for your halyards (and this is what pushed me away from it) is that it doesn't have much UV protection. 95% of the time my boat is hanging around at dock with the working part of the halyards exposed to the atmosphere. You could use messenger lines and pull them back into the mast to protect them from UV, but that seemed like a pain to me compared to using slightly heavier and more expensive dyneema based line with a casing (like XLS Extra or Warpspeed).

I do use exposed Amsteel for my life lines, outhaul, and topping lift, but all of these are easier to inspect and less costly to replace.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

A 100' long halyard isn't stretching across the whole 100'. It is stretching for the distance between the top of the sail and the cleat or clutch that holds it, which is roughly equivalent to the length of your mast. My boat requires 95' halyards so that they can be lowered to the deck to bend sails, but the working section of the halyard is only about 45' long.

That is why splicing amsteel to cheap line (like LS) is attractive or mixing wire and rope is attractive. You only need the low stretch for the working section of the halyard, and buy using a single line (as I did) you are spending way too much money on the non-working half of the halyard. In my case I decided that I'd rather spend the little extra money then deal with the hassles of a spliced halyard.


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

Alex, I've edited my post for clearity. Yes, the 100' was assuming a very large boat. 

Also, amsteel has great UV resistance. You can get 4-5 years out of it uncovered and more with it covered. Vectran is not good adn PBO must be covered, always. Almost all dyneema is treated from the manufacturer with some type of UV coating. 

And if you really want to save money, you can just splice an empty cover onto the end of a core for a really lightweight halyard that's cheap. 

__empty cover_______________double braid_________________single braid core
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX=================================

The double braid section would be what goes around the winch, through the clutch, to a cleat, etc. Minimal bulk and weight otherwise.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Alex W said:


> A 100' long halyard isn't stretching across the whole 100'. It is stretching for the distance between the top of the sail and the cleat or clutch that holds it, which is roughly equivalent to the length of your mast. My boat requires 95' halyards so that they can be lowered to the deck to bend sails, but the working section of the halyard is only about 45' long.
> 
> That is why splicing amsteel to cheap line (like LS) is attractive or mixing wire and rope is attractive. You only need the low stretch for the working section of the halyard, and buy using a single line (as I did) you are spending way too much money on the non-working half of the halyard. In my case I decided that I'd rather spend the little extra money then deal with the hassles of a spliced halyard.


I've just ordered 50' of 5/16" Amsteel at more than twice the load I need. It should have essentially 0 stretch. I am going to end-end splice it to 60' of 7/16" Tenex. I think they should splice together nicely, using a class II splice with the long fids used for the slippery hi-tech lines. I'll place the splice just above the halyard winch when sail is fully raised. This will allow the larger, less slippery Tenex to remain on the winch with the sail fully raised. When reefed, the Tenex, which has about the same stretch as most of the polyester double braids, will allow a little stretch but only over a few feet.

Amsteel weathers really well. It DOES have some creep over time. I used 3/8" for my lifelines and it has held up very well, looking like new after a couple of years. I notice 0 brittleness or apparent UV damage.


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## AdamLein (Nov 6, 2007)

The half-high-tech halyard solution is pretty intriguing. I currently have half-wire and have been wanting to go to all-rope. Do you think I could keep the same masthead sheaves (for the wire) and run the high-tech line through it, or would it damage the line?


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

AdamLein said:


> I currently have half-wire and have been wanting to go to all-rope.


I really am genuinely trying to understand what's up with the half-wire solution, and what the advantage of all-rope is... is it weight up top?


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## AdamLein (Nov 6, 2007)

MarkSF said:


> I really am genuinely trying to understand what's up with the half-wire solution, and what the advantage of all-rope is... is it weight up top?


Half-wire, low stretch? All-rope, cheap and easy? I thought?

In my case, I've got a not-quite-securely-closing shackle in the pressed eye on my main halyard wire, which unfortunately can't be removed without cutting the shackle (sounds hard) or the wire, so I'm in a position to redesign the setup anyway.

Edit, sorry, I didn't quite get your question. I have nothing serious against the half-wire solution. One minor annoyance is that there's a limit to how far I can let the main halyard out (because of the pressed eye that the rope part is spliced to). This means it doesn't reach some parts of of the boat that I might want it to reach for non-sail-hoisting-purposes. Also having replaced the rope on both halyards, I found making an eye splice through the pressed eye was sort of a pain.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

AdamLein said:


> The half-high-tech halyard solution is pretty intriguing. I currently have half-wire and have been wanting to go to all-rope. Do you think I could keep the same masthead sheaves (for the wire) and run the high-tech line through it, or would it damage the line?


My old A35 was designed for a wire to rope halyard so the original sheave takes either wire or rope. There is a small groove that centers the 7/32" wire rope at the bottom of the larger radius arc that centers the rope. It is quite smooth and rounded and looks like it won't damage rope. If there were grip serrations or any roughness on the sheave, it would likely abrade the rope over time but as smooth as it is, I don't foresee a problem. Probably not a good idea to change it in any case until I've decided to stay with all rope.


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

MarkSF said:


> I really am genuinely trying to understand what's up with the half-wire solution, and what the advantage of all-rope is... is it weight up top?


A few other reasons:
Dyneema

But mostly it's due to weight savings. Doesn't kink, no meat hooks, easy on the hands, etc.


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## AdamLein (Nov 6, 2007)

smurphny said:


> the original sheave takes either wire or rope. There is a small groove that centers the 7/32" wire rope at the bottom of the larger radius arc that centers the rope. It is quite smooth and rounded and looks like it won't damage rope. If there were grip serrations or any roughness on the sheave, it would likely abrade the rope over time


Ah... good things to look for next time I head up the mast.


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

Alex,

The first 10% of load is actually a lot of fiber compression, not actually stretching. If you look at the numbers from 10% onward the stretch goes up faster each step. 



The advantage of wire used to be that 40 years ago the best rope lines were pretty terrible. Massive stretch, relatively weak line which required large sizes, high weight, and even at that it was really expensive. So to get low stretch halyards you had to go to wire, which at the time was actually close to the same weight but much smaller for the same breaking strength. 

Of course this started to change when polyester started to replace nylon line, and prices started to come down. Or course with dyneema the game is completely different. Dyneema outperforms wire in every way except for abrasion resistance, and UV. But it is by far the most UV stable line on the market. 

So just a quick breakdown of dyneema vs wire size for size

1) dyneema is roughly twice the strength
2) 1/7 the weight
3) has the same stretch
4) doesn't meat hook
5) is easy to splice
6) a fraction the cost

I frankly won't put wire on a boat these days at all. With the possible exception of standing rigging there is nowhere on a boat that wire is the best or most cost effective option, and in many cases it comes out worse off in performance and in cost.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

I question the use of hi-tech rope for standing rigging and did consider it when replacing my rigging. The one trait of wire that sets it apart is its resistance to cutting. I would not want any sharp edge from whatever unknown source, slicing through what holds the mast up. Rubbing against a sharp edge in some sort of collision, vandalism, etc. makes rope a lot more vulnerable.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Smurph, when it comes to cutting I've seen generic halyards (StaSet family IIRC) literally chew a slice in the aluminum mast because no stainless feed guide had been installed by the slot. The cutting problem works both ways, sometimes the rope, sometimes the metal.

But did you consider, as the NER piece mentions, that pursuing low stretch may be meaningless if you are using the normal stretchy dacron cruising sails? OK, the wire halyard won't stretch, but if the sail is stretching, you still need to go trim the sail, so weather that's trimming for the sail or the halyard, you're still doing the same job.

One advantage to using line is that you can order it a bit long, and then end-for-end the line every year or two, so the wear points are moved and the line may even last twice as long. Helps stretch the boat bucks.

And of course, line means less weight aloft, which generally means better boat speed, which is what trimming out the stretch is addressing anyway, isn't it?


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

I don't do any racing or require anything but "cruising" performance. The only reason I want to go with high tech, low stretch line is that I have noticed a large difference in how the boat sails if there is any slack along the luff. Much of it has to do with the operation of the Norvane steering unit. It lets me know right away if the sails aren't trimmed right. I have a Cunningham as well which helps to keep the c/e of the main where it belongs. The sail area of these pre-IOR/Fastnet disaster boats is relatively large and trimming the main just right is critical to avoid excessive weather helm. I experimented a lot with this and originally thought maybe the large main, although looking to be in good condition, was stretched out but in using a couple of different sails, discovered that trim makes all the difference. I have a standard sliding gooseneck with a fiddle block downhaul so can really regulate the tension. It does take a good deal of initial tension to get all the ripples out of the luff so I believe sails for these were sewn up with a lot of luff rope tension.


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

Have you tried reseting your bolt rope tension? Cutting the stitching and tensioning the sail, then letting it relax and re-stitch? This will do wonders for a sail that looks like it's blown out and needs a lot of halyard.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"so I believe sails for these were sewn up with a lot of luff rope tension."
I wouldn't think that was a design variable. The cloth itself, the weave and weight and material, would determine what "the right" tension on the sail should be. But the luff rope itself is going to change, lengthening under tension and contracting with age, so the odds are (as zz suggests) that the luff rope is no longer at original tension, and that might need attention. That's just one of the things that change on old sails even if they _appear _to be perfectly good.
Might be something to ask a loft about.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Never thought about that. The lay of old line certainly does get harder. The sails I got with the boat were not used much and are very nicely made but they ARE old, probably 30 yrs old, 80s vintage. Thanks for that info. zz! I've been making my own sails so easing off the bolt rope a bit should be fairly easy. I may be able to just slack it a little alongside the headboard. Will have to take a look at it.


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## paulk (Jun 2, 2000)

I would question splicing a "cheap" line to a suitable high-tech no-stretch line unless you plan to do the splice yourself. When we switched from wire/rope halyards to all textile ones, it was cheaper for us to simply buy the full length of line than to pay for a splice. You can then end-for end the line with no qualms when it starts to wear, and don't have to worry about a potential weak spot in the halyard. 

Another question would be not having the no-stretch go all the way to the winch. If you put stretchy line anywhere between the masthead and the cleat, it is going to stretch - negating the whole idea of using no-stretch line in the first place. It would be like tying a rubber band to the end of the line and cleating the rubber band. Why bother with no-stretch if you're going to let it stretch in the last three feet? 

A third point that no one seems to have brought up (though it is apparent from the stretch percentages shown above) is that the new synthetic lines actually stretch LESS than wire of the same (or even greater) diameter. There is NO reason to continue to use wire in halyards, unless you have one of those dangerous antique all-wire halyard reel winches that are so nasty to use that you probably have trouble finding crew.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

The general idea is to avoid spending money for high tech line that is never used when the sail is up, to have the expensive line where it's needed. If there is, say, 4' of low-tech line above and around the winch, it only results in a small amount of additional stretch. 2% of stretch over 4' is less than an inch of stretch. If the low tech line is large enough to never reach 10% of spec. it is even less. A 9000# rated line, if cranked up to 500# is a bit more than 5%. So the stretch in the cheaper line is really very little.The trick is to get the high-tech line to end as close to the winch as possible. To pay $4/ft ($200) for 50' of line that is just coiled when the sails are up doesn't make much sense to me. 

12 strand is VERY easy to splice compared to double braids which are difficult to master. To be a sailor (IMO) one should know how to do all of them and not depend on West Marine or Defender to do it for you.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"is that the new synthetic lines actually stretch LESS than wire of the same "
And here I thought I was imagining things again when I remembered that.
The best thing about imaginary friends is that they never drink your last beer.


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## AdamLein (Nov 6, 2007)

paulk said:


> If you put stretchy line anywhere between the masthead and the cleat, it is going to stretch


Agree.



> - negating the whole idea of using no-stretch line in the first place. It would be like tying a rubber band to the end of the line and cleating the rubber band.


Disagree. Sta-set has less than 4% elongation at 30% working load. That's less than half an inch of elongation for every foot of line above the belay point.

If you have a small enough length of it, you could probably use three-strand nylon as your halyard pennant and not notice the stretch


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

Unless you are using some really cheap nylon stuff, having sta-set involved at all will just increase the cost. It really is the most expensive line you can buy when sized for breaking strength. 

If you need to increase the size of dyneema lines just splice a cover over it where needed.


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## AdamLein (Nov 6, 2007)

Stumble said:


> If you need to increase the size of dyneema lines just splice a cover over it where needed.


Size and friction. Is it possible to buy just a polyester cover, or do you have to buy some double-braid and pull out the core?

Anyway I just picked sta-set as an example. I'm sure you could use any decent polyester line as the pennant and still get a significant savings over full-length-dyneema halyard.


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

Adam,

The problem is that polyester lines are more expensive when you compare lines breaking strength to breaking strength. So if you want a tail that is as strong as the line, it is cheaper to use more dyneema than it is to splice in any poly tail. 

It is possible to buy just the cover. I typically use about 4' per halyard. Just take the dyneema halyard, and run it up the mast to the top and mark where the line hits the winch, or clutch. This mark is going to be the center of the spliced on cover. Then you use a tapered bury splice on the new cover (on both ends) to put it into place.

All in all it takes me about 10 minutes to make up a halyard this way. 

If you are really worried about abrasion, then the best thing to use is not a poly cover, but actually a dyneema cover. Just get a piece of dyneema of a slightly larger size and splice it into place (Same splice from above). Dyneema is actually the most abrasion resistant line on the market, so it's great for this.


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

So, the answer to the OP (as far as I can tell) is that rope will stretch a lot less if pre-tension than the zero to 20% number indicates. However, the less stretchy rope will stretch less than the more stretch rope, even when pretensioned.


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

Stumble said:


> Adam,
> The problem is that polyester lines are more expensive when you compare lines breaking strength to breaking strength. So if you want a tail that is as strong as the line, it is cheaper to use more dyneema than it is to splice in any poly tail.


No it's not. It's almost always cheaper to use a poly tail. No one is sizing their halyards for breaking strength. If they were, we would all use dyneema or aramid cores. People size their strings according to the hardware on their boat and easy of handling. Clutches, self tailers, cleats, etc. Big boats that use a lot of string can and do benefit from poly tails on their halyards, but most don't do this b/c you can't double end them. * If you make/splice the halyard like I do, then the loaded part goes around the winch or through the clutch with a cover and low stretch core. No stretch. *



> It is possible to buy just the cover. I typically use about 4' per halyard. Just take the dyneema halyard, and run it up the mast to the top and mark where the line hits the winch, or clutch. This mark is going to be the center of the spliced on cover. Then you use a tapered bury splice on the new cover (on both ends) to put it into place.
> All in all it takes me about 10 minutes to make up a halyard this way.


A)	You've either never actually made a halyard this way or
B)	You've never timed yourself. You cannot, install a length of dyneema, splice a shackle to it, hoist it, measure and install a cover, then bury both ends in 10 minutes. I'm willing to bet that it takes you almost an hour. 
I agree, the splices are simple when looked at independently, but you're doing a lot of steps that can't be done in 10 minutes. Unless you're a genius and are 4x faster than guys who have been doing it for years.



> If you are really worried about abrasion, then the best thing to use is not a poly cover, but actually a dyneema cover. Just get a piece of dyneema of a slightly larger size and splice it into place (Same splice from above). Dyneema is actually the most abrasion resistant line on the market, so it's great for this.


Only half right. Dyneema cover is #1 in guarding against chafe but, as anyone who has handled it would know, it is very slick. *Which gives it horrible grip around a winch and in a clutch*. Dyneema cover should never be used around a winch unless you like 6+ wraps around them. You can use a polyester cover, a blend of poly and nomex, aramid, or polyester and technora. All 5 of those options are much cheaper than 100% SK75 cover and will grip a winch or grip in a clutch a lot better. SK75 cover should be used for chafe protection only. On stays, end of halyards, around loops for blocks, pad eyes, strops, etc.

Feel free to contact me for a quote. 
[email protected]


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

my halyards are all rope--i notice no stretching during use. i do not race. i will not use wire to rope halyards--have seen em fail too often. smooth sailing.
btw--my halyards are workers, not for show.i CRUISE and make long passages rather than day sailing.....


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

zeehag said:


> my halyards are all rope--i notice no stretching during use. i do not race. i will not use wire to rope halyards--have seen em fail too often. smooth sailing.
> btw--my halyards are workers, not for show.i CRUISE and make long passages rather than day sailing.....


And by your own addmission you don't sail to weather, where stretch would be most noticable. Could it be that there is a lot of stretch, but you just don't notice it?


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

zz4gta said:


> And by your own addmission you don't sail to weather, where stretch would be most noticable. Could it be that there is a lot of stretch, but you just don't notice it?


i sail a FORMOSA--like stretch matters???? isnt a big concern. i do NOT race, so i am casual. i learned on gaff rigging--so does stretch matter?? creeping does, stretch does not. funny how that is. if i had a light displacement boat, stretch might be an issue, but i sail heavy displacement cruiser--i lose only 1/4 gallon per hour with dirty hull....and can still sail 3 knots boat speed in 6 kts wind. stretch is irrelevant here.

intact halyards are not irrelevant. banging halyards on mast and spreaders is a good way to break their integrity--yet many cruising types let them bang and slam--mebbe after one season in hurrycame they might learn to befoul them so they dont slam or bang..


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

Zz4,

I agree with a number of the things you mentioned but let me clear something up real quick. If I left the impression I can fully splice a halyard together in 10 minutes, I misspoke. I was trying to say that adding a cover takes about that long. 



To the extent it matters I don't like splicing on extra bulking areas anywhere, since I find it messes with the clean run of the line. I also prefer not to make lines really complicated, unless we are talking about really high end race boats where ultimate performance is the only thing that matters. For a cruiser's halyard I would recommend buying something like endura-braid and tapering it, instead of using multiple segments of line. Which is where for some reason this conversation got too. 

Secondly raw dyneema should never be worked on a winch or clutch but adding second layers can be useful on halyards at the sheave block, or turning blocks, which is where I tend to add them. Not at the winch end.


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## tap (Apr 1, 2009)

I agree with zz4gta that halyards aren't sized for breaking strength. If all you looked at was breaking strength and cost, you'd use dyneema dental floss. Stretch, the ability to hold in a clutch, be easily hoisted, and fit on a winch are the limiting factors. Any modern line that meets those requirements will be more than strong enough.

Where is this cheap poly cover?

When I made my halyard I used amsteel and XLS. They actually cost the same per foot, but the XLS was larger diameter and stretches more. I could have made the whole length amsteel and put the cover off the xls on the amsteel, but that would have made the tail of the halyard cost double what it did. And it would be more of a pain than just splicing them.

The only cover only I could find to buy is all fancy nomex/vectran/dyneema stuff that costs a LOT more than a cheap poly line like LS or sta-set in the same diameter. Where is it one can buy cover only for the less than the cost of LS or sta-set of the same diameter?


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

Yale makes a polyester only cover you can get it a lot of places but here's the APS link. http://www.apsltd.com/c-1570-cover-only-yale.aspx

You can also use the high tech stuff like the Flavored Ice from Sampson, but as you mentioned it is rediculously expensive for just a cover. I have played with it, but can't really see the advantage of spending the extra money.


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## tap (Apr 1, 2009)

That's cheaper than the fancy stuff, but it's still slightly more expensive that what I can get Samson LS for. It's probably a nicer cover than what LS uses.


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

Tap, can I ask what method you used for splicing the two lines together? Or do you have photos?


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## tap (Apr 1, 2009)

There is some good instructions on L-36's site here, Splicing Amsteel to Sta-Set

I made the length of amsteel buried into the XLS core much longer than in those instructions. I wanted the bury to extend through past the clutch. The bury bulks up the XLS some so it hold in the clutch better.


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