# Retractable Bowsprit DIY



## Joel H. (Sep 9, 2012)

This is a copy of a post I made on the Catalina owners forum.
1978 C27 std. rig.
In the interest of flying my Gennaker or even getting a Code Zero furler some day, I'm fashioning my own retractable Bowsprit out of a scavenged Hobie Cat 16 boom extrusion that I had laying around, (A nice ridgid teardrop shape that fits wonderfully between the pulpit stanchon base and the stem fitting).
I have most of it worked out, including shaping up a pillow-block and stem fitting attachment to mount it. (The Sprit, of course, is mounted to the side of the stem fitting).

But

I have some unknowns yet to solve: Do I run it parallel to the centerline, but offset, allowing me to vary it's extension according to future needs, but have a odd angle for the bobstay and furler torque line?
OR
Do I determine how far out it needs to extend in relationship to the bow pulpit railing above it, for a furler, and after determining that dimension should I angle the Sprit so that the end intersects the centerline of the boat at that extension length in order to have a centered bobstay and furler?
Or
Do I modify the pulpit rail so it doesn't have to extend far and forgo the bobstay altogether?

What say ye?
Thanks in advance for any feedback.
Joel H.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

I have to wonder why you think it's necessary to get such an additional forward projection for the tack of an asymetrical on a boat such as yours. Simply flying it from the stem will work fine, or even the use of a spinnaker pole will afford you better options...

Don't even think about trying to fly a Code 0 from such a prod, the loads imparted by those sails can be quite high... Even a regular asym will generate some decent loads when the breeze comes up, I seriously doubt a Hobie 16 boom will be up to handling them, unless you rig a temporary bobstay... there's good reason why carbon fiber is generally the material of choice for such sprits...

Years ago, I configured a way to use my spinnaker pole as a sprit, but I've only used it a handful of times... I simply haven't seen any real advantage to it. Better and easier to use the pole in a conventional fashion, I've found...


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

With a strong enough extrusion there is no reason you can't get a 3' projection without a bob stay. Most of the Selden sprit kits do it. I don't know how strong your hobie boom section is, but I used a piece of schedule 80 4" aluminum tube for mine, and it has stood up to some pretty high loads, and even the shock load of colapsing and re filling at the top end of the sail's wind range without breaking or bending. You should talk to your sailmaker about tack loads on a code zero. As for the end of the pole being on centerline, that would be ideal, but for cruising purposes, a few inches offset isn't going to matter much.

For the record, you will find flying the sail from a sprit MUCH better than flying it from the stem, and if you plan to use a furler it is a must. You don't need a lot of projection, just enough for the tack to clear the pulpit, and to keep the spinnaker furler clear of the forestay.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

SchockT said:


> For the record, you will find flying the sail from a sprit MUCH better than flying it from the stem, and if you plan to use a furler it is a must. You don't need a lot of projection, just enough for the tack to clear the pulpit, and to keep the spinnaker furler clear of the forestay.


Just curious what sort of improvement you've found by flying from a sprit... I can see the advantage on a sport boat, but on a boat like mine, or on a Catalina 27, I'm not sure... My boat does have an unusually large J dimension, however, perhaps that's why a sprit for me might not be quite as advantageous...

Good point about the furler, but if he's going with a snuffer instead, it will work fine inside the pulpit... IMHO, I'd rather have a snuffer tacked to the deck inboard of everything, anyway...

for a Code 0, I have my furler tacked at the stem, right behind my headsail furler, seems to work fine... I suppose if I were attempting to sail at 50 degrees apparent, the furler would disturb the flow somewhat, but I generally find on a cruising boat, at that point a Code 0 really loses its advantage, and you're better off going with the genoa, anyway...


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

The main advantage is that the foot of the chute is clear of the pulpit and lifelines. If you tack the sail to the stem you either have to deal with the sail being distorted and chaffed by the pulpit, or you have to raise the tack up above the pulpit height using a strop. If you use a strop you have the problem of the whole sail falling to leeward, and you need to attach the tack to the forestay somehow to eliminate that problem. The other advantage a sprit gives you is that you can do inside gybes, meaning you run your sheet between the tack of the chute and the forestay. That eliminates the problem of the lazy sheet potentially falling under the bow if it gets too much slack in it. If you are running a furler you will also have the ability to leave the furled flying sail hoisted without it interfering with your ability to unfurl and use your headsail. And then of course there is the advantage of being able to fly a bigger sail from a sprit than you can from the stem.










In this pic I am using an old guy for my tack line, and it is eased slightly so the tack is a bit higher than normal.


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## Joel H. (Sep 9, 2012)

To answer Jon as to why I need a Bowsprit on my boat, I will admit, I'm not 100% sure....
While I achieved a certain level of proficiency sailing Hobie Cats over many years, (single-handed). I only bought my Catalina 27 two seasons ago, so while I consider myself a decent sailor, there are certainly a few holes in my skill set/knowledge. Because I sail my C27 single-hand, I've never had the opportunity to fly the gennaker that came with the boat (or use the "whisker Pole", for that matter). 
I will also admit that the code zero videos, coupled with the fact that I have this spar, and _somewhat_ unlimited fabrication resources, just might have something to do with it.

Also, I just like toys!

Having said all that, am I wrong for thinking it would be vary cool to be able to deploy and dowse a asym. from the comfort of my lonely cockpit.

So, I guess my question now is: Is a code zero just a ridiculous thing to put on a C27? Or, would it be a reasonable asset to a solo sailor?
All opinions are appreciated.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

A Code Zero seems like a big expense for an old Catalina. I would think that you would get more use out of a decent asymetric spinnaker than you would out of a Code Zero, but then I don't know what kind of sailing you do! The C27 runs a big genoa that will do you just fine for tight reaching, and when you want to sail deeper the asymetric will be more versatile.


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## Joel H. (Sep 9, 2012)

I see. Well obviously I need to do a little thinking. And probably take another sailor's suggestion and sail on somebody else's boat while they fly a Asym. to get to understand more about it.

P.S. She might be old, but she shines and sails like a boat half her age.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

SchockT said:


> The main advantage is that the foot of the chute is clear of the pulpit and lifelines. If you tack the sail to the stem you either have to deal with the sail being distorted and chaffed by the pulpit, or you have to raise the tack up above the pulpit height using a strop. If you use a strop you have the problem of the whole sail falling to leeward, and you need to attach the tack to the forestay somehow to eliminate that problem. The other advantage a sprit gives you is that you can do inside gybes, meaning you run your sheet between the tack of the chute and the forestay. That eliminates the problem of the lazy sheet potentially falling under the bow if it gets too much slack in it. If you are running a furler you will also have the ability to leave the furled flying sail hoisted without it interfering with your ability to unfurl and use your headsail. And then of course there is the advantage of being able to fly a bigger sail from a sprit than you can from the stem.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good point about the inside jibes, I'm a kroozer, so I try to avoid that sort of work as much as possible (grin)... Still, if I need to, I can still do the same with the tack at stem...

We obviously fly our chutes differently, I generally try to have the tack 4-6 feet above the deck, anyway... If I feel compelled to lower the tack to deck level, it's generally time to switch to a Code 0, anyway...

For Joel, whether you really need a Code 0 depends on the sort of sailing you do, of course... The sail and a continuous furler is a significant investment, and probably of questionable value to the typical weekend/vacation sailor... But, for more extended cruising, IMHO no other sail so consistently makes the difference between sailing, and motoring... I love my Code 0, it's been worth every penny, for the kind of sailing I do...

And, in my experience, it's a much more versatile sail than most people are led to believe... Most sailmakers will not tell you it can be used like this, for example...


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

Does your existing gennaker have a sock? How are the halyards run? Do you have an autopilot?

I tried running a socked gennaker single handed on my C-25. I set a straight ahead course with the autopilot, went forward to the mast to raise the sock, routed sheets, then launched the gennaker.

It could be done without the sock too, but the sock makes it a lot easier to launch and douse (especially douse). Since you've already got all of this stuff (maybe not the sock) you should try it before building the bowspirit.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

Joel H. said:


> I see. Well obviously I need to do a little thinking. And probably take another sailor's suggestion...


Here is a suggestion: make life easier on yourself and buy a symmetrical spinnaker. The conventional spinnaker pole will project the spinnaker much better than any sprit you can rig.

Benefits:

You will be much faster dead down wind.

You will improve the resale value of your boat.

You will look like a sailing stud who knows what he is doing.

You will experience mucho excitement when you jibe the spinnaker in heavy air.

You will save much time not attempting to rig something your boat was never designed to carry.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

If a boat is not already set up for a symetric spinnaker, it is much more complicated and expensive to do than an a-kite. You will need a longer pole with ends, a mast track and car, (or at minimum a ring), a pole uphaul and downhaul, tweakers, or on a bigger boat, dedicated guys and forward leads for those guys. Symetric kites are more complicated to rig and to fly. Gybing requires someone to go forward. If you are single handing you will have to rely on an auto helm, or lock off the helm. If you are in seas with any kind of wind you can get into big trouble if a wave knocks you off course while you are gybing the pole. Sure, those of us who race and have flown spinnakers for years can pull it off, and yes we look god-like when we do! having said that, there is no way I would recommend it to a newbie.

It is true that you can sail deeper with a symetric chute, but DDW sucks! It is the slowest point of sail, and I avoid it if I can!


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

Practical Sailor did a nice article on the proliferation of long noses on boats, both new and add on's. 

Bottom line Joel - unless you SERIOUSLY reinforce the ENTIRE bow area for loads in all directions (including shear) you might wind up with an expensive bit of rhino-plasty the first time it gets all white knuckle on you. 
Your bow was not designed for loads in front of the bow, and it will interfere with anchoring.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

SchockT said:


> ...and yes we look god-like when we do!


Thanks for the comparison and for providing me with a _segue_ to post another of my singlehanded spinnaker videos (purely for the benefit of the OP). Doesn't this look like fun, forget the sprit project:


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## BarryL (Aug 21, 2003)

Hey,

I haven't read the PS article, but your comment seems a little too strong. There are numerous companies manufacturing and selling retractable bowsprints for older boats, including CatalinaDirect:

Catalina Direct: Cruising Spinnaker Retractable Bowsprit Kit

note that the kit is specifically recommended for the C27.

I'm not suggesting that you should fly a monster chute off a 10' homemade sprit, but the benefits of a sprit are well documented and the sprit seems to be the future of sailing, especially when used with 'code' sails.

I race on an old (1980) c&c 34. The owner is constantly updating the boat. For last season he added a code 0 sail for reaching in light air. He didn't add a sprit for this, but we do use the spin pole as makeshift sprit and it seems to work ok.

Furling the code sail is MUCH easier than dropping a chute, especially when sailing with an inexperienced crew.

Barry



chucklesR said:


> Practical Sailor did a nice article on the proliferation of long noses on boats, both new and add on's.
> 
> Bottom line Joel - unless you SERIOUSLY reinforce the ENTIRE bow area for loads in all directions (including shear) you might wind up with an expensive bit of rhino-plasty the first time it gets all white knuckle on you.
> Your bow was not designed for loads in front of the bow, and it will interfere with anchoring.


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## Joel H. (Sep 9, 2012)

Yeah, what Barry said....LOL

Seriously though, I'm appreciating all the feedback and have, based on the range of opinions, decided to throttle back my enthusiasm and get better educated in order to weigh all the pros and cons. I decided I need to hook up with more experienced sailors, in the spring, in hopes of getting a better idea of all the ins and outs of downwind sails. 
Quote:Furling the code sail is MUCH easier than dropping a chute, especially when sailing with an inexperienced crew. 
----See I like this idea, this is what is motivating me!

Lastly, in response to Chuckles: I'm not an engineer but I'm pretty sure my Catalina 27 is a little more solid than all that. But I appreciate the concern!


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

BarryL said:


> Furling the code sail is MUCH easier than dropping a chute, especially when sailing with an inexperienced crew.


I've never used a Code sail with a furler. Can you compare the easy of furling it to using an asymmetrical with a sock? Both have a similar end result (pull on a line and put the whole sail into a linear form) but do it in very different ways.


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## knuterikt (Aug 7, 2006)

Alex W said:


> I've never used a Code sail with a furler. Can you compare the easy of furling it to using an asymmetrical with a sock? Both have a similar end result (pull on a line and put the whole sail into a linear form) but do it in very different ways.


This video will give you an idea. (It's a commercial from my sailmaker)


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## BarryL (Aug 21, 2003)

Hi Alex,

First let me state that I am not an expert. I have used the furling unit with a Code 0 and an Asymmetric sail about 5 times. My previous boat came with am asymmetric sail in a sock, and I flew that many times.

IMHO, the furling unit is easier to use.

It's easier to set up and use the furling unit than to set up and use the chute in sock.

Don't get me wrong, I found using the sock to be pretty easy, and, to be perfectly honest, I would like to buy a used chute / sock when someone moves up to a furling gennaker. But IMHO the furler is easier.

Barry



Alex W said:


> I've never used a Code sail with a furler. Can you compare the easy of furling it to using an asymmetrical with a sock? Both have a similar end result (pull on a line and put the whole sail into a linear form) but do it in very different ways.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

BarryL said:


> Hi Alex,
> 
> First let me state that I am not an expert. I have used the furling unit with a Code 0 and an Asymmetric sail about 5 times. My previous boat came with am asymmetric sail in a sock, and I flew that many times.
> 
> ...


Might be a bit of an apples to oranges comparison we're making here...

When you say that you furled an "asymmetric sail", or "gennaker", did you do so with one of the new Top-Down furlers like those from Karver? Or an older Roll-Gen? Because those are the only way to "furl" an asymmetrical spinnaker that I'm aware of... And, those units like the Karver, are VERY expensive...

People tend to use the terms "asymmetrical", "gennaker", and "Code 0" interchangeably, but the Code 0 is a very different sail, with a straight luff of high strength that makes it possible to furl in a conventional manner... That can't be done with a spinnaker...

The top-down systems were first developed for the big superyachts, where the sheer size and weight of a sock made for difficult handling by the crew... But for the sort of boats most of us sail, I still think a sock is the way to go... The top-down furlers need to be tacked to either the stem, or a sprit, they appear to lack the versatility of being able to fly an asymmetrical spinnaker using a pole, for instance... Never having used one myself, however, I'm not certain about that... Has anyone out there used one? I'd be interested in hearing your take...

Another advantage of the sock, it's possible to actually "reef" your chute during squally conditions, etc - without having to douse it completely...

Looks stupid as hell, but it works... (grin)


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

Joel, Barry - 
I'm not taking digs at the C27, just passing on a concern. 

There is a serious difference between buying a well engineered kit from the builder and a DIY. I'm also not taking digs at Joel's ability to engineer it out properly and safely.

Since the have the kit why DIY? Safety should never be suborned to budget.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

Joel,

I personally think you are going in the right direction for improving your off-wind sailing experience. My next boat I plan to do the same, add a sprit with a furling asymetrical. Decent performance off wind is all about sail area, and using a sprit can allow you to fly a asym up to 100% larger than a cruising chute flown off the stem. Yes, a cruising chute is better than a white sail off wind, but quite limited. The furling characteristic makes setting and retrieving practical for shorthanding, and the area provides performance. Go for it.

I'd be hesitant to make my own sprit though...


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

sailingfool said:


> Joel,
> 
> I personally think you are going in the right direction for improving your off-wind sailing experience.* My next boat I plan to do the same, add a sprit with a furling asymetrical.* Decent performance off wind is all about sail area, and using a sprit can allow you to fly a asym up to 100% larger than a cruising chute flown off the stem. Yes, a cruising chute is better than a white sail off wind, but quite limited. The furling characteristic makes setting and retrieving practical for shorthanding, and the area provides performance. Go for it.
> 
> I'd be hesitant to make my own sprit though...


I'm curious, what sort of sail are you referring to, precisely? A Code 0?

As much as I love mine, I still think a cruising chute is less "limited" for downwind sailing on a boat like a Catalina 27 (especially at deeper angles), than the sort of sail you seem to be describing... Unless you're talking about sailing higher performance boats, and tacking downwind, of course...

Frankly, I think my little tub might become just a tad unmanageable, if I were flying a sail 100% larger than my current Ambiguously Gay Cruising Chute, flown from the stem... (grin)


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

If you were to design your own sprit, a great feature would be an articulating sprit with the sprit pivoting around the stem area and a curved track on the aft, so you could position it to the gunwale on either leeward side when flying the spinnaker, thus gaining additional valuable projection of the pole to windward.


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## BarryL (Aug 21, 2003)

Hi John,

The sail inventory on the race boat is:
Dacron main with 1 reef
Laminate #1
Laminate #2
Standard spinnaker
Asymmetric spinnaker
Code 0

Last year the owner bought the code 0 sail, along with the top down furling gear. I believe the unit is from Harken. Anyway, when he bought the Code 0 he also the asym modified to use the furling gear too. We can fly the asym normally, or use it with the furling gear (I've only done that once). I believe that from now on the asym on the boat will only be used with the furling gear. A 'Torsion' line is hoisted and once that's tensioned it doesn't twist but rotates and the sail wraps around it. The torsion line is relatively cheap and the bottom 'drum' unit can be used with multiple torsion lines. We switch the furling drum between sails as needed.

Regarding furling vs the sock, for racing the furling unit is clearly better as a hoisted sail in the sock is large, bulky, and would cause a lot of windage while a hoisted furled sail is much smaller. For cruising I think there's much advantage of one over the other (on boats under say 45').

Barry



JonEisberg said:


> Might be a bit of an apples to oranges comparison we're making here...
> 
> When you say that you furled an "asymmetric sail", or "gennaker", did you do so with one of the new Top-Down furlers like those from Karver? Or an older Roll-Gen? Because those are the only way to "furl" an asymmetrical spinnaker that I'm aware of... And, those units like the Karver, are VERY expensive...
> 
> ...


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

chucklesR said:


> Joel, Barry -
> I'm not taking digs at the C27, just passing on a concern.
> I
> There is a serious difference between buying a well engineered kit from the builder and a DIY. I'm also not taking digs at Joel's ability to engineer it out properly and safely.
> ...


The "engineered" kits you refer to typically use either u-bolts or rings bolted to the deck. Some kits I have seen bolt onto the anchor roller. A DIY project that utilizes the boat's stem fitting should be just as strong or stronger than those arrangements, assuming the stem fitting is not already compromised. The stem is one of the strongest parts of the boat, because it has already been engineered to handle the load of the forestay and a big genoa.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

JonEisberg said:


> I'm curious, what sort of sail are you referring to, precisely? A Code 0? ...


The sail I have in mind is often referred to as an A1 as in Asymmetric Racing Spinnakers | Doyle Sailmakers. Not having done the math, Ii would think an A1 on a CAt27 with a four four sprit would have 70% or more area than a cruising chute. combined with the convenience of a furler, this area makes the sail more useful in the light to mid winds. In higher winds, the price of sailing with a genoa is not so bad...

I agree your cruising chute is providing excellent drive in your photo, and a larger A1 would be dicey, but winds in the high teens to low 20s is not the sweet spot where most sailors are looking for more go anyway.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

sailingfool said:


> The sail I have in mind is often referred to as an A1 as in Asymmetric Racing Spinnakers | Doyle Sailmakers. Not having done the math, Ii would think an A1 on a CAt27 with a four four sprit would have 70% or more area than a cruising chute. combined with the convenience of a furler, this area makes the sail more useful in the light to mid winds. In higher winds, the price of sailing with a genoa is not so bad...
> 
> I agree your cruising chute is providing excellent drive in your photo, and a larger A1 would be dicey, but winds in the high teens to low 20s is not the sweet spot where most sailors are looking for more go anyway.


You also have to keep in mind that the difference is not just about sail area. JonEisenberg's sail looks almost like a symetric spinnaker being flown as a "cruising chute". It has very full shoulders which makes it more suitable for sailing deeper. Once it is used on hotter angles it will become less efficient. It will start to generate more heeling and less forward drive just as a symetric does when tight reaching. An A1 asymetric, on the other hand, has a flatter shape, and a draft position that is more suited to reaching, so the power it generates is more forward and less heeling. It is more suited to the angles you need to sail at when you are flyimg from a fixed point on centerline. There is no point in having a "running" sail shape when running results in the sail being blanketed by the main. Of course not all cruising chutes and asyms are the same. They doo build a-kites that have more downwind shapes, just as they build symetrics for reaching.










My chute is classified as an A2 because it is a bit smaller. It is short on the hoist to accomodate a furler or sock which I haven't bought yet. It is quite a bit smaller than my biggest symetric, but still generates plenty of power. (I wish I had a pic of us doing 7.5kts with it last summer!) The beauty of it is that it is far more manageable power than a symetric.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Here is a graphic from North Sails that might help illustrate the differences between the different downwind sails. The "A" sails are asymmetrics (It looks like this is what Jon has). The "S"s are the symmetrics. Note that the odd numbers are reachers and the even numbers are runners. On the right, the "G" sails are the North Gennekers and the "C"s are the coded sails. Note that the coded sails are used for reaching and beating, not running. After-all, the North Code versions have a wire luff stitched into them. Incidentally, on the family Catalina, I have a G2 and S2 on board. I can easily single or double hand the Genneker, but with only one spinnaker pole, the symmetric is only used when I have enough crew so someone can act as bowman. The G2 is a little frustrating insomuch as it has no performance in very light airs and unfortunately, an A1.5 is not in the budget.










This is what our North G2 Genneker looks like (we call her "Pinky"&#8230; You got to be real secure in your masculinity to fly something made with neon pink.)


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## Joel H. (Sep 9, 2012)

chucklesR said:


> Joel, Barry -
> I'm not taking digs at the C27, just passing on a concern.
> 
> There is a serious difference between buying a well engineered kit from the builder and a DIY. I'm also not taking digs at Joel's ability to engineer it out properly and safely.
> ...


Oh, no offense taken Chuckles. I understood the spirit of your concern.
As far as purchasing the kit over DIY, well, I have a lot of hobbies, all of which are expensive. But mostly I love the feeling I get when I pull off a good DIY. I guess my confidence is pretty high on this one. But, I plan on proceeding cautiously, if I proceed at all. I definitely plan on getting a couple of ride-alongs on other peoples boats to get more sense of these sails.
Cheers,
Joel H.


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## Joel H. (Sep 9, 2012)

jameswilson29 said:


> If you were to design your own sprit, a great feature would be an articulating sprit with the sprit pivoting around the stem area and a curved track on the aft, so you could position it to the gunwale on either leeward side when flying the spinnaker, thus gaining additional valuable projection of the pole to windward.


Wow, that would be trick.
Though on my Cat. 27, if you draw a line parallel to the centerline, between the stem fitting and the foreword pulpit rail stanchion, there isn't a lot of cross-section there. So I don't think I can get much more swing to starboard, presuming I mount it on the port side, than it will take just to get it to intersect the C/L of the boat at a decent projection. That was one reason the teardrop cross-section of the spar, I have, seemed so "ready made".
Thanks for the thought James.
Next time I'm down at the yard I'll check that possibility out.
Cheers for now,
Joel H.


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## peterchech (Sep 2, 2011)

A few posters mentioned using the spin pole instead of bothering with a sprit, and that has been mentioned recently on SA as well, but I just don't understand how the tack of the sail is attached to the end of the pole, how the pole is kept from rising up (tweakers? downhaul?), and how it would be jibed. Could someone explain?



Joel H. said:


> Wow, that would be trick.
> Though on my Cat. 27, if you draw a line parallel to the centerline, between the stem fitting and the foreword pulpit rail stanchion, there isn't a lot of cross-section there. So I don't think I can get much more swing to starboard, presuming I mount it on the port side, than it will take just to get it to intersect the C/L of the boat at a decent projection. That was one reason the teardrop cross-section of the spar, I have, seemed so "ready made".
> Thanks for the thought James.
> Next time I'm down at the yard I'll check that possibility out.
> ...


Haha that would be pretty cool, mini-650 style! I guess using a spin pole would allow you to create the same effect for some deeper angles downwind...

Just out of curiosity, what kind of angles can one expect from a typical/basic cruising spinnaker tacked to the bow pulpit on an older boat like the op's? Can they be used for light wind beam reaching or even hotter?


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

peterchech said:


> A few posters mentioned using the spin pole instead of bothering with a sprit, and that has been mentioned recently on SA as well, but I just don't understand how the tack of the sail is attached to the end of the pole, how the pole is kept from rising up (tweakers? downhaul?), and how it would be jibed. Could someone explain?


No different from tacking it anywhere else, though I usually use a soft spectra loup at the pole end for attaching the tack line block... Some might want to add a light line from the shackle trigger back inboard if you need to blow the tack, but I never bother with that, just seems like something else to get fouled...

The use of a foreguy and afterguy is essential, IMO, to really stabilize the outboard end of the pole... With the additional downward pull of the tack line, you should see very little movement of the pole... I'm a big believer in the use of a foreguy and afterguy led back to the cockpit when cruising, especially shorthanded, even with just a whisker pole... FAR less drama, IMHO...

With an inner forestay like mine, jibing is definitely a big production... I basically have to snuff the sail, then re-rig the pole on the other side, and re-set...

Ideally, you want the pole closer to horizontal than in the pic below... On this afternoon in the breeze was coming up to the point where carrying the chute was getting marginal, and I'd just lowered the pole end down from where it had been, in an effort to snug everything up a bit, and minimize the oscillation... but I dropped it pretty soon thereafter, I seem to recall, it was starting to get a bit hairy as the seas began to build a bit more...












peterchech said:


> Just out of curiosity, what kind of angles can one expect from a typical/basic cruising spinnaker tacked to the bow pulpit on an older boat like the op's? Can they be used for light wind beam reaching or even hotter?


Check out the sailmaker's websites, everything you need to know is to be found there...

North Sails: Downwind Sail Performance Guide


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Joel H. said:


> > Originally Posted by jameswilson29
> > If you were to design your own sprit, a great feature would be an articulating sprit with the sprit pivoting around the stem area and a curved track on the aft, so you could position it to the gunwale on either leeward side when flying the spinnaker, thus gaining additional valuable projection of the pole to windward.
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, sounds cool in theory, but I just don't see how it's really practicable on anything other than a pure race/sport boat, with an absolute clear foredeck...

I had all I could do to configure using my spinnaker pole as a fixed sprit... With all the additional foredeck clutter found on many recreational boats - large mooring cleats, anchors on rollers, foredeck hatches, windlasses, tenders often stowed on foredecks, etc - it's just not gonna be possible on many boats...


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## knuterikt (Aug 7, 2006)

peterchech said:


> A few posters mentioned using the spin pole instead of bothering with a sprit, and that has been mentioned recently on SA as well, but I just don't understand how the tack of the sail is attached to the end of the pole, how the pole is kept from rising up (tweakers? downhaul?), and how it would be jibed. Could someone explain?


There are different ways to do this, there are one short hand sailor here in Norway who is using a system he is calling ASOP (Asymmetric Spinnaker with Oversized Pole)
He is using a spinnaker boom with length J + 1meter.

He uses three lines attached to the tack of the sail. 
-Tack line 
-Two afterguy's
All three spliced into one snap shackle

The sail is tacked in front of the head stay (the usual way) with a adjustable tack line going to a cabin top winch).

Setting the sail is done as usual.
The pole is set on the windward side the afterguy is put into the spnnaker boom as yuu would do with a spinnaker afterguy.

The tack line is eased and the windward guy is hauled in to pull the tack to windward

Gybing the sail is done in this sequence (outside gybe)
-ease the afterguy while hauling in on the tack
-When the tack is hauled in do the outside gybe
-After the gybe - dip the spinnaker boom and set on new tack

I set my assymetric on a bowsprit but use a normal length spinnaker boom the same way as decribed above to pull the tack to windward for downwind runs.

Here is a video of this gybe





Take down


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

That's an interesting setup, although 3 minutes, 3 trips to the bow, and leaving the pole loose on the deck for one gybe seems a bit messy to me!

The douse in the second video is what we call a "letter-box drop", and it is a good way to control the chute and keep it from getting fouled on the way down IF you have a loose footed main. Throwing the halyard overboard to ensure it runs smooth works well. I do it once in a while just to get the twists out, but you have to remember to rinse the salt out of it if you care about your halyards!


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## knuterikt (Aug 7, 2006)

SchockT said:


> That's an interesting setup, although 3 minutes, 3 trips to the bow, and leaving the pole loose on the deck for one gybe seems a bit messy to me!
> 
> The douse in the second video is what we call a "letter-box drop", and it is a good way to control the chute and keep it from getting fouled on the way down IF you have a loose footed main. Throwing the halyard overboard to ensure it runs smooth works well. I do it once in a while just to get the twists out, but you have to remember to rinse the salt out of it if you care about your halyards!


Don't know why he had to go 3 trips on the fore deck for that gybe.

When I gybe with my asymmetric I do only one trip to shift side for the spinnaker boom (or stow it if not needed on the new tack).

We do letter box drop with the spinnaker regularly on the boat I race on.

The asymmetric on my boat is set in a furler so that's a different game.


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## knuterikt (Aug 7, 2006)

*Furler for Asymmetric and Code 0*

The question about furler for Asymmetric and Code 0 has been raised in this thread.

I have a Facnor FX2500 with a AFX kit so I can use the same furler for both the Asymmetric and the Code 0.

This is the tack of my Code 0, the bowsprit is in it short position, also notice the bobstay (adjustable) to deal with the extra load of the Code 0









This is the Asymetric on the furler with the AFX (the torsion stiff rope is the black rope going from the furler.
In this picture the tack is eased to get the luff to windward because we sail almost DDW. 
The tack has to be hauled in before furling
The Facnor system use a central furling line attached half way up the luff going to the torsion stiff rope. I have no experience with the top down furler - but I will try next summer (I only have to disable the top swivel with a dyneema lashing to convert)









In this picture the have use the spinnaker boom and a afterguy to get the sail to windward - less wind than i the previous picture so that helped fill the sail.


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## peterchech (Sep 2, 2011)

I see. So ur basically setting up like u would the symmetrical spinnaker, except you have one extra line, the tack line. (Foregut/after guy is the same as guy and spin sheet, right?)

Sort of eliminates the point of a cruising assymetrical though, which is to simplify downwind sailing. By the time I set this up for my cruiser, I might as well just throw up the symmetric and have less complication to deal with!

Still, it allows deeper angles for those with asyms so it's cool in that sense. Eliminates the only advantage that symmetrical kites hav on the race course. I haven't seen one flown off a pole yet at the race course, but maybe I just haven't been looking hard enough. maybe I should pretend I invented the technique ;-)


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## knuterikt (Aug 7, 2006)

peterchech said:


> I see. So ur basically setting up like u would the symmetrical spinnaker, except you have one extra line, the tack line. (Foreguy/after guy is the same as guy and spin sheet, right?)


I have a usual spinnaker boom setup for dip poole gybe. (Topping lift, Foreguy/downhaul and Pole heel lift)

There are six lines on the sail; 
The four standard lines for asymmetric (halyard, adjustable tack, sheet x 2 rigged for outside gybe) 
+ guys x 2 attached to the tack (the furler in my case).


peterchech said:


> Sort of eliminates the point of a cruising asymmetrical though, which is to simplify downwind sailing. By the time I set this up for my cruiser, I might as well just throw up the symmetric and have less complication to deal with!


Don't know if I agree with you.
Setting the asymmetric.
-clip furler onto tack line & guy's (use soft shacles to attach guy's so they can also be rigged after the sail i set)
-clip on halyard
-From cockpit
-Tighten tack (done by hand) to pull the furler out on the end of the bowsprit
-Hoist
-Unfurl while taking in on active sheet

If I need to use the spinnaker pole (normally light conditions DDW).
-set spinnaker boom on mast
-Put the windward guy in the jaw if the spinnaker pole
-Adjust Topping lift & Foreguy
-Winch in on guy while easing tack

To gybe (can do the hole gybe w/o leaving the cockpit)
-ease the guy while winching the tack tight (cabin top winch)
-Stabilize the spinnaker boom using Foreguy & topping lift
-Execute a standard outside gybe
-rest pole if needed on new tack.

I use this for cruising, seldom sail straight lines - normally I sail different courses with the asymmetric up.
So this give me a wider usable angle in which I can use the asymmetric.
-No need to switch between spinnaker/asymmetric
-On less sail to carry and spend money on 
-Fore deck work with boom only when I need/want it



peterchech said:


> Still, it allows deeper angles for those with asyms so it's cool in that sense. Eliminates the only advantage that symmetrical kites hav on the race course. I haven't seen one flown off a pole yet at the race course, but maybe I just haven't been looking hard enough. maybe I should pretend I invented the technique ;-)


As i wrote i previous post, there are short hand racers around here who use it for racing.

One reason you haven't seen it on the race course can be
-rating rules
-type of racing (windward / leeward favor symmetrical)


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

*Re: Furler for Asymmetric and Code 0*



knuterikt said:


> The Facnor system use a central furling line attached half way up the luff going to the torsion stiff rope. I have no experience with the top down furler - but I will try next summer (I only have to disable the top swivel with a dyneema lashing to convert)


Just curious, how would one "disable" the top swivel to convert your present system to a top-down furler?

Seems to me the only way these top-down systems work, is to have the dedicated bottom furling drum, where the tack attachment swivels independently of the torsion line... What am I missing, here?

Nice looking boat, btw.... What is she?


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## knuterikt (Aug 7, 2006)

*Re: Furler for Asymmetric and Code 0*



JonEisberg said:


> Just curious, how would one "disable" the top swivel to convert your present system to a top-down furler?
> 
> Seems to me the only way these top-down systems work, is to have the dedicated bottom furling drum, where the tack attachment swivels independently of the torsion line... What am I missing, here?


On the Facnor AFX system there are two swivels 
Top swivel is kind of strange  
The torsion rope is fixed at one end, at the other end the halyard is attached, allowing the torsion (anti twist) rope to turn without turning the halyard.
The head of the sail is attached to a dyneema strop that rotates on a bearing on the outside of the swivel housing. 
So when you furl, the torsion rope is turning but halyard and head of sail is standing still.

At the tack end the torsion stiff rope is fixed to the furling drum, so it rotates when the drum is operated.

The tack of the sail is attached to a dyneema strop that rotates on a bearing on the furler drum (same as head).

The asymmetric has a thin dyneema line attached to the luff - mid height (central furling line) that is also attached to the torsion stiff rope.

So when you furl the sail the dyneema line is furled and the sail is furled from mid luff.

So if I prevent the head attachment from swiveling I have the same top down system as Selden, Bamar and others use, just interested to find out what works best (w/o buying new kit).

Documentation here http://www.facnor.com/uk/technical_...rs/asymfx_instllationinstructions_2012_uk.pdf

Tack of the asymmetric









Head of the asymmetric









Tack of the Code 0









Head of the code 0 with the standard top swivel.









Furler in the position used for the Solent jib









Maybee video's is better

Facnor ASYM-FX (at 0:27 you can spot the central furling line)





Bamar top down furler







JonEisberg said:


> Nice looking boat, btw.... What is she?


Beneteau First 38


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