# Newbie looking for advice.



## S.S.Minnow (Mar 4, 2016)

Hello, I have decided to retire at 57 and sail the Caribbean for the next 10 years or so. So I have 2 years to sell everything that will not fit aboard and find a suitable boat. So as I start to educate myself I find there are more sailboats for sale than used cars. I see myself settling in on something around 40' to 45' or so. I see Hunters for sale everywhere followed by many Beneteaus. We are not going to cross the ocean just play around in the Caribbean. All impute welcome on the above two manufactures as well as others we may want to consider. Sailing experience zero. Extensive motorboat experience. Taking sailing classes the next 2 summers in the great lakes. All impute welcomed. Thank you in advance for your time.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Suggest that you take sailing lessons in the general area that you intend to sail. If your destination is the Caribbean, take lessons there. If the Great Lakes, take lessons there.

There are plenty of threads that compare Hunters and Beneteaus on SailNet, and other forums.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Go take a week long live aboard cruising course. Offshore Sailing School runs one in Tortola. You'll not only learn to sail (in fair weather), you'll know if the idea is as good as you think it is. 

There are just way too many more choices than the two brands you stumbled across in abundance to feel you were getting good advice just comparing the two. Not to mention, the year and model in each makes a big difference too.


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## Lake Superior Sailor (Aug 23, 2011)

With zero experience, you really need to charter ,or crew or somehow try it out first! Lots of people have found out sailing wasn't their thing and moved on to land yachts!.......Dale


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

While your extensive motorboating experience will stand you in good stead, it's not the same as sailing. And though many may disagree, jumping into a 45 footer in the tradewinds without experience might even be more than a little dangerous.

But you have plenty of time for research - as already mentioned those two brands are nowhere near the sum total of your choices. Do some reading, on this and other forums, magazines, etc, you may find that you don't really need to go that big (with attendant savings in purchase, maintenance and operating costs) I see there's a 'we' in your intro.. presumably a couple then? Has your SO ever sailed - do you know if there will be anxiety when the boat decides to lean over substantially? Even though it's totally normal some people never get comfortable with it, and indeed can be scared off for life if they don't understand the physics of it all.

Definitely charter, take courses, make friends with others who already sail (go for experienced folks here too) before you take the leap. You may well decide a properly chosen 35-36 feet is all you'll ever need.

And it's often helpful, when asking for suggestions on boats to buy, to include a realistic budget figure - what you can afford will determine the 'right' list for you.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

You need to find out whether you like sailing and being on the boat enough to go down the path. Not saying you need to love boats/sailing, but you can't hate . Of course the only way to know is to do it so. The way I went about it:

- took sailing lessons (on a cruising size boat)
- join a sail club and sailed each weekend for 3 months
- got my first boat, it was a 39' boat, which turned out to be too small for comfort to us, and it was a "name" boat because I had become too influenced be internet forums
- spent 2 years on boat 1 learning what we didn't like about it
- got our current boat, which after 6 years we still like, and it turns out to be Hunter


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Dude, whatever you do, don't name your boat S.S.Minnow unless you have Ginger as your crew.

But seriously... great plan. Are you planning to sail alone? If so, 40-45' boat is a bit much IMO, especially if you are new to sailing. In a blow, it is too much boat to handle for one guy. Same goes for docking, anchoring, and other tricky maneuvers. And you do not need such a big boat for one person.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

krisscross said:


> ..... And you do not need such a big boat for one person.


Or two, IMO.

btw, for context, we've been to 40 feet, currently quite happy with the 2 of us on our current 35 footer - but we only live aboard full time in the summer.

Others, and your MMV..


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

krisscross said:


> Dude, whatever you do, don't name your boat S.S.Minnow unless you have Ginger as your crew.......


Your call, but she's 82 now.  She's one of the few from the cast that is still kicking though.


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## Lake Superior Sailor (Aug 23, 2011)

Looks the part!...I'd stay away for the whole ship wreck thing! Besides that's why your here.....Dale


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

S.S.Minnow said:


> Hello, I have decided to retire at 57 and sail the Caribbean for the next 10 years or so. So I have 2 years to sell everything that will not fit aboard and find a suitable boat. So as I start to educate myself I find there are more sailboats for sale than used cars. I see myself settling in on something around 40' to 45' or so. I see Hunters for sale everywhere followed by many Beneteaus. We are not going to cross the ocean ...


You began with "I" but brought in "we" and unless you're referring to you and the boat, I strongly suggest that whoever you are planning to share this adventure with become part of the decision process and learning process from the beginning. If there is more than just you and you don't include your partner, you risk creating problems down the road.


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## S.S.Minnow (Mar 4, 2016)

eherlihy: Agree with sailing the Caribbean on charter and plan to do so but logistics will only allow a couple weeks a summer for the next two summers. Great lakes is 2 hours away which will allow sailing every other weekend or so.

Lake Superior Sailor/Krisscross: I have been doing the land yacht thingy which is nice but all destinations end up parking like saltine crackers at a campground... not my cup of tea. I will not do marina's for the same reason.

My reasoning on 40'-ish is to have enough room for the occasional visitors as well as not wanting to be like a plastic pop bottle in the wind. If they are properly rigged my research leads me to believe they can be handled by a couple... It must be able in a pinch to be sailed by 1 in case of injury/overboard. 

Faster/Minnewaska/Don0190: The wolf has also never sailed. We have floated rivers in canoes for week at a time making and breaking camp everyday. We have rented 50' houseboats for 2-4 weeks at a time on lake of the woods. Yeah I know just a floating hotel with a motor but... living on the hook anchoring in a different bay each night is what gave us the idea of retiring at sea. We have owned fishing boats since we were teenagers and spend every weekend possible on water for the last 30 years.

Budget: Up to $150,000 with and additional $25,000 for repairs re-rigging. Would obviously like to spend less but this is the upper limit. My research leads me to believe a roller furling headsail and roller furling beam and mainsail are the most forgiving. 

I picked the S.S. Minnow as I knew it would catch everybody's attention. My Ginger is only 54 and is still Hot as Hell. Ginger not so much anymore. But hey she has made it to 82 good for her... I will not.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Minnewaska said:


> Your call, but she's 82 now.  She's one of the few from the cast that is still kicking though.


Oh, dude... that was cruel, CRUEL!


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

Listen, first of all, if you're going all Gilligan you need to decide between Mary Ann and Ginger. Leave Thurston Howell and Lovey behind, although the professor could be useful when things break since he can build anything from bamboo, like when you need a series drogue and fedex doesn't ship to your desert island.

Good that you've spent a few weeks power boat cruising and camping as a couple, that's more than a lot of people have and at least you know you can do it for a while. If possible, before committing to the lifestyle full time, it would be helpful to spend even more time at it. I found there's a big difference between a few weeks on vacation and a few months living aboard. Making sure you really, really are right for this before selling the farm. We absolutely love sailing, but after a month or 2 we are eager to get on land and see friends and family. Everyone's different in this regard. We have friends who sailed off and never looked back.

Lot's of different boats can work for what you are planning. Least of your worries IMHO.


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## Newp26owner (Dec 18, 2015)

Your plan looks like mine, i still have a few years to work so to gain experience I bought a smaller boat, 26 footer, will sail this smaller boat for a few years on weekends and if we like it as much as I think we will then buy a bigger boat for the retierment. It would freak me out to realize we sold the house to buy a boat and not like it. Selling a 10K boat is a lot easier then a 153K boat and have to wait to sell it to buy a camper. Good luck with your project.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

capecodda said:


> Listen, first of all, if you're going all Gilligan you need to decide between Mary Ann and Ginger. .....


Mary Ann every time....


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Faster said:


> Mary Ann every time....


I think she's the only other survivor from the cast. 5 years younger than Ginger. You go for the young ones do you.......


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Faster said:


> Mary Ann every time....


Mary Ann every other time for me.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

krisscross said:


> Mary Ann every other time for me.


Philanderer!


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## ChristinaM (Aug 18, 2011)

There are some good learn to sail liveaboard courses on the Great Lakes, wherever is convenient for you. If you're in the US, you probably want the ASA 101/103. I'd start with one of those (both you and your Ginger/Mary Anne).

Find one using a boat similar to what you're looking at. Shouldn't be too tough to find a Beneteau, Jeanneau, Hunter or Catalina (or anything modern and readily available on yachtworld). It doesn't have to be 40' to get a feel for some of the features. It's a lot cheaper to learn that you don't like something about a boat if you don't have to buy it first.

Here's an example (I don't know this company, just showing what I'd be looking for): ASA 101/103 Stay & Learn


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## hellsop (Jun 3, 2014)

S.S.Minnow said:


> Budget: Up to $150,000 with and additional $25,000 for repairs re-rigging. Would obviously like to spend less but this is the upper limit. My research leads me to believe a roller furling headsail and roller furling beam and mainsail are the most forgiving.


You could probably swap those two numbers and end up happier. 

And, TBH, many people find that boats over 35-38 REALLY need more than single-handed sailing. There are exceptional sailors that can handle 45 foot boats on their own, but they're exceptional for reasons that have a lot more to do with them than the boat. You'll have plenty of room for visitors on a 35, probably 4-5 more people for a short while and at least two more for weeks. (V-berth, settee, and quarter-berth are a typical minimum accommodations for 35, and you'll often get an aft cabin instead of just the quarter.)


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## hellsop (Jun 3, 2014)

ChristinaM said:


> Here's an example (I don't know this company, just showing what I'd be looking for): ASA 101/103 Stay & Learn


Great Lakes Sailing has a rather good reputation in the upper Midwest. It's recommendable at first glance, and I think I've found my summer holiday for next year.


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

Minnewaska said:


> I think she's the only other survivor from the cast. 5 years younger than Ginger. You go for the young ones do you.......


Concur, Mary Ann without a doubt.


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## S.S.Minnow (Mar 4, 2016)

The conversation has went as expected when I mentioned zero sailing experience. Don't get me wrong your advice on thinking this through and trying before you leap is ROCK solid and will be adhered to. This is however not yesterdays idea... been percolating for years. Your advice so far is the same advice I've been giving for the last ten years on a Jaguar (auto) forum when somebody wants to buy their first Jag and they are looking at 15 to 20+ year old cars. Unless you have a good maintenance budget you might want to think this through and move on to another brand or idea as you will not be happy trying to keep up with the electronics. I am able to give this advice from experience as my collection consists of ten 20 year old Jags.

So the original query still needs to be addressed. Lets assume everything has been thought through and WE are a go. As I look for possible boats I am overwhelmed by the selections available. My biggest fear is to end up buying something like a fresh water Bayliners which is allot of boat for the money but not allot of boat. I see the two most common are Hunters and Beneteuaus. Looking through the ads I see Hunter had a delamination problem in the early 90's ??? this is exactly what my query is trying to avoid. What other brands if any should I be considering and in them brands are there models/years to avoid. Thank you so much for taking the time to advise your impute is greatly appreciated.


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## ChristinaM (Aug 18, 2011)

S.S.Minnow said:


> So the original query still needs to be addressed. Lets assume everything has been thought through and WE are a go. As I look for possible boats I am overwhelmed by the selections available. My biggest fear is to end up buying something like a fresh water Bayliners which is allot of boat for the money but not allot of boat. I see the two most common are Hunters and Beneteuaus. Looking through the ads I see Hunter had a delamination problem in the early 90's ??? this is exactly what my query is trying to avoid. What other brands if any should I be considering and in them brands are there models/years to avoid. Thank you so much for taking the time to advise your impute is greatly appreciated.


Honestly, there are a ton of boats out there that will do what you want. It's like asking for the best mid-sized family sedan for a moderate commute, except the production numbers are so much lower.

It comes down to what you want to use it for:
- How many people? Guests? How many? How often? This will decide between 2 & 3 cabin layouts.
- How far will you realistically sail? Do you want to move to a new anchorage every few days, weeks, or months? What islands/areas do you want to visit? I'd recommend a very different boat for wintering in the Bahamas vs trying to see the whole Caribbean in a few years.
- 1 bathroom or 2 (or 3)? Shower inside or out (probably both). Showers in both bathrooms? Where does the "main" bathroom go? Near the entryway or near the bedroom (if it's in the front).
- What kind of bed do you want? Big aft cabin vs v berth as the master bedroom.
- Food: what do you cook, will you want to keep lots of meat on hand when you're somewhere far from grocery stores (e.g., Bahamas) or hang out somewhere you can shop daily if you want (e.g., Martinique). How much ice will you use for drinks?
- Will you be going back & forth to the US or just staying south? How will the boat get to the Caribbean? Will you buy it there or get it there somehow?

There are some generalizations about manufacturers that often spark off arguments here. It's the same as if I said bad things about Ford on an auto forum (and you'd still have to figure out if I'm actually complaining about Pintos since boats that old are still in use). If you give us some details on you & your plans, you'll probably get some decent recommendations for specific boats. Even just the number of cabins you need and an estimate of how old you expect your boat to be would probably trigger that.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Pretty well all models have had issues from time to time.. Bene had a spell where 'blisters' were epidemic, the recognized Carroll Marine had a spate of delamination issues at one time, Hunters have had a bit of a bad rep, IMO not all deserved and for me is mostly a stylistic objection with their latest lines. Really early Hunters (of the Cherubini era - pre '83 or so) generally have a better overall reputation but are, of course, much older, sedate designs as a rule. As with all brands, relying on any owner to be objective about the brand of boat they own is a bit of a losing bet.

For your intentions and desires the first boat that pops up in my mind is the Passport 40. Available in a variety of layouts, construction is rock solid, like any Perry design the row-away factor is high, very comfortable cockpit ergonomics and probably the best galley in a production boat of that size anywhere. We have friends who took theirs to Mexico from BC and spent three seasons down south.. the boat gave them no issues beyond normal maintenance. Could be at the top of your budget range though.

Find a Tatoosh (rare) or other related Perry designs will probably do you well too.

The Venerable Valiant 40 is another, earlier Perry effort with a strong following - but the Passport IMO is a much more liveable boat. (no offense, Newt et al)

That's not to say that a Bene like a 411 or 393 won't do the job for you either, or a Catalina 42 MKI/MKII, 400, 380 - it's going to come down to equipment, condition, perhaps location, and availability. But if all those boats were lined up in a row, all things being equal for simple coastal sailing/summers/weekends, I'd choose the Cat 42MKII or maybe a J40... if I had aspirations to go further, deep sea/extended passages the Passport 40 would be my first choice.

Other quality candidates would include Sabres, HR, etc but as you say, there are so many it does become confusing. Assume you've done all the Yachtworld searches within your price/length range?


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

This ^^^^^

More questions:

Traditional style or modern/Euro style?
How about really roomy, cruising cats, or are you like me and don't feel like your sailing if you stand up straight?
Speed vs. comfort? Which one is more important or in the middle?
Easy sailing handling or speed at any cost? Roller furling everything vs let's put on the new Kevlar blade?
You going to sit at anchor, or sail everyday? Doing overnights a lot or day passages between islands? Tradeoff between at anchor comfort and underway cooking/sleeping/eating...etc.

Your detailed intended use will help you get advice on if you should buy a sports car, sedan, performance sedan, SUV, etc.

PS - If you like Jag's, we know you are used to fixing stuff. Another good indication that you'll like sailboats!!!!


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## Siamese (May 9, 2007)

Doing your learning in the Caribbean sounds like good advice. But, given your proximity to the Great Lakes, it makes a lot of sense to do it there. That's what I'd suggest, and you can always get a few days in the salty stuff before you make your big move. 

Your question of which boat to buy is a bit off the mark. There are simply too many appropriate boats out there to name them all. Or to name the best. Sure, you'll get a smattering of results from the sailors on this forum, but practically speaking, what do you do with that information? 

A Hunter or a Bene would be fine. Ditto for Catalina. And many others. Any of the mainstream makers has made a boat that would be good for your purposes. I can't point to one of the mainstream brands and say, "stay away from xxxx, they're nothing but crap". Sure, some are made better than others, and some are at the upper end of the scale, and may be semi-custom or custom with prices that will be out of your range. 

A better approach?: 
While you're learning to sail, you can also be looking at boats in Michigan. Because you're really just kicking tires, it's not entirely fair to the sellers, but if you can stop by the larger brokers and look at what they have on hand, you're going to soak up some good information. You'll also be bewildered, but keep looking and keep reading. You WILL end up with a much better sense of what sort of boat you want. 

When you're really ready to make your purchase, you have some knowledge you couldn't have gotten otherwise. At that point, look at the listings where you want to buy (could be a large area...even a Great Lakes freshwater vessel) and find a boat you like with the layout you like, etc.. Wow, this 12 year old Catalina 42 is well equipped, looks really good and I like the layout. Then, do your research on the Catalina 42. After your own research, come back to this forum and inquire about it. If you like the boat, and there are no known issues, or the known issues have either been addressed or can be easily addressed, then you've found a boat. Get a survey and either walk away or buy it. 

In the meantime, do plenty of trial boating buys. Let's say you find a nice Bene xxxxx in Traverse City, Michigan in really nice shape for a good price. Go online and find out all you can about it. Maybe there's an owner's forum where you can get some good info. When you're ready for your actual buy, you're already have experience with vetting.


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## Sailormon6 (May 9, 2002)

Whether you can learn to sail on a 40-45' boat depends entirely on you. I have a good friend who did it successfully, but it was a slow process, and I think you'll need help, not just from sailing instructors, but also from an experienced sailor who will take some time to sail with you on your boat, and help you figure out how it is rigged, and find the flaws in it that need to be repaired. If you buy a used boat, it will have hardware that doesn't work properly anymore, and will need to be replaced. Without experience, you might not recognize those flaws. 

You will need to develop certain basic skills. You'll need to know how to sail the boat in all conditions of wind and sea, and to develop the discipline to stow everything not being used, so that it doesn't roll around the cabin floor in rough weather. You'll need to learn how to maneuver a fixed, single screw sailboat under power in a marina, and how to get in and out of a slip, and alongside a dock when the wind and/or current is either favorable or contrary. You'll need to know how to navigate along a coast or at sea, how to anchor securely in all conditions, and how to provision for an extended cruise, and prepare meals underway. You'll need to understand all the boat's systems well enough so that you can repair them youreself, while under way. If you have the desire and discipline to learn those skills and more, you can do it. After you have developed your basic skills, you should test them with an extended cruise of 200-300 miles. 

Taking sailing classes in the Carib would be helpful, but much of the expense involved is the cost of flying there and back. If expense is a concern for you, I'd suggest that you'd benefit more by spending that money to take more advanced sailing courses on the Great Lakes or the Chesapeake Bay. The US Power Squadron offers many inexpensive courses in navigation and electronics and other subjects that would be valuable. Joining the Cruising Club of America would be helpful.


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## chuck5499 (Aug 31, 2003)

I can only tell you what worked for us. We had never been on a sailboat until Dec 2000 when we took asa 101 together - we liked it so much we took 2 more in 2001 and chartered a couple of times - we bought a new 40' Jeanneau DS 40 - our first and only boat. We lived in Miami at the time and sailed a lot. At age 62 I took off and did the east coast of the USA - the admiral thought I was having to much fun and joined me - our goal was to sail the Bahamas and back and we did that a couple of times then things got out of hand and we sailed both sides of the Caribbean and did a 2 person crossing of the Atlantic in 2013 and now getting ready for our 4 year in the Med. By the way I turned 70 this year and the Admiral is 68. 
as suggestions 
1 sail the great lakes -- there is an old saying that if you can sail the great lakes you can sail anywhere
2 40' is a great size - especially if you are going to live on for a long time 
3 do not limit your horizons by saying I am only going to sail such and such so my boat does not need to be that great - we only wanted to go to the Bahamas but wow did things get out of hand in a hurry - you never know what you may do or where you may end up 
4 keep asking questions - lots of support here 
5 if there is an admiral get her involved asap and make it a team -- we are a team 
good luck


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

Follow the below to the true path to sailing away:

How I Will Sail Away From It All - Cruising Outpost Magazine : Cruising Outpost Magazine


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## S.S.Minnow (Mar 4, 2016)

Nice.... and surprisingly accurate. It's supposed to be 60 degrees today... time to go sailing. Thank you so much for the advice givin, the S.S. Minnow will check back in.


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