# Why are the Ladies silent on Sailnet?



## deniseO30

Sailing is so sexist that the ladies here feel too inferior to post?

They are treated rudely or not taken seriously?

Anything they say is invalidated?

OK to rant Ladies!


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## eherlihy

I think you intimidate them D-


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## deniseO30

lol


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## smackdaddy

Okay, I _obviously_ have the wrong genitalia for this thread. But I wonder at the same thing as you D0.

IMUSO, you are the coolest/smartest chick around here (along with a few others). I wish the ladies would throwdown a bit. I, for one, seriously dig 'em.


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## deniseO30

Thank you for the compliment SD!


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## Donna_F

smackdaddy said:


> Okay, I _obviously_ have the wrong genitalia for this thread.


I'm sure we can make you an honorary lady, eh, Denise?


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## deniseO30

Off with the headsail!


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## smackdaddy

That's A LOT of head sail. Just so you know.

And DR - you have no pull with the ladies. Let me assure you.


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## deniseO30

Seriously, I really don't think it's the guys keeping the ladies quiet.


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## Donna_F

smackdaddy said:


> That's A LOT of head sail. Just so you know.
> 
> And DR - you have no pull with the ladies. Let me assure you.


Huh? Why not? (pouting)


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## wingNwing

Silent? Hmm, I don't want to talk politics, had enough of that when I worked in DC; that keeps me out of the "off topic" forums. I don't want to get into fights and I don't want to talk about things I know nothing about (like racing). Now I seem to have cut myself out of about 80% of the threads ...

About the other 20%, I'm willing to contribute if I've got something to say. Otherwise, you can find me in the cockpit, watching the water go by. If I seem to be gloating about living on my boat instead of in a cubicle, yeah, you got that right!

Seriously, I've made a lot of friends through Sailnet - I love this place!


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## smackdaddy

DRFerron said:


> (pouting)


Exactly.


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## smackdaddy

wingNwing said:


> If I seem to be gloating about living on my boat instead of in a cubicle, yeah, you got that right!
> 
> Seriously, I've made a lot of friends through Sailnet - I love this place!


BS you don't like fighting! Heh-heh.


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## Donna_F

smackdaddy said:


> Exactly.


Now I'm just confused.


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## wingNwing

smackdaddy said:


> BS you don't like fighting! Heh-heh.


OTOH, I only learn when I'm listening. Anything I say, I already know.

So maybe I can claim that I'm just maximizing the value (to me!) of my online time by learning as much as possible?

Nah, I didn't think you'd be fooled by that one! :laugher


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## chef2sail

Chef2sail<----not fooled by wingnwing. I enjoy talking to you in any forum. I have also met a lot of nice people on Sailnet. Only 310 days (approx) to our next Annual Sailnet Rondevous at the Maryland Yacht Club.


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## wingNwing

chef2sail said:


> Chef2sail<----not fooled by wingnwing. I enjoy talking to you in any forum. I have also met a lot of nice people on Sailnet. Only 310 days (approx) to our next Annual Sailnet Rondevous at the Maryland Yacht Club.


 See what I mean about making friends here?


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## mgmhead

Well, Jaye and Denise would be just two of the nice people I've met in RL thanks to SailNet. If I'm fortunate I'll one day meet Donna too.

Can't seriously imagine that anyone with a bit of sense would be dismissive of women...that would be foolish!


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## junkrig

wingNwing said:


> OTOH, I only learn when I'm listening. Anything I say, I already know. :laugher


That doesn't limit the boys, why should it limit you?


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## Melrna

Not to sure why we ladies don't post as often as we should but that is the reality of all bulletin boards on the internet. Like in real life we mostly listen, take notes and learn what we can. Once in while, when we contribute, choose the topic with great care in what we have to say. Most of us are not as bold as the other gender into entering discussions which may lead to arguments on how things should be right or wrong. Just the nature of the beast.


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## mdbee

*Men / Women*



Melrna said:


> Not to sure why we ladies don't post as often as we should but that is the reality of all bulletin boards on the internet. Like in real life we mostly listen, take notes and learn what we can. Once in while, when we contribute, choose the topic with great care in what we have to say. Most of us are not as bold as the other gender into entering discussions which may lead to arguments on how things should be right or wrong. Just the nature of the beast.


Interesting observation, so men and women are different? I wonder if I had said that, I might be branded sexist?  I guess it just depends on the circumstances and maybe the level of testosterone??

I just think men like to shoot their mouths off more.


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## Donna_F

mdbee said:


> I just think men like to shoot their mouths off more.


Not only men.


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## SVAuspicious

Perhaps the ladies are out sailing while the men are hunched over a keyboard?


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## deniseO30

Oh.. LOL bump it up


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## rockDAWG

deniseO30 said:


> Sailing is so sexist that the ladies here feel too inferior to post?
> 
> They are treated rudely or not taken seriously?
> 
> Anything they say is invalidated?
> 
> OK to rant Ladies!


I thought it is quite the opposite. When female member posts, all guys jump into action and hope for a date. It does not matter if he is married and not. You can see the post counts. :laugher

Why ladies don't like to post because too many men with Hi-T are hitting on them. They are sick of tired of it. so they register with a guy name to protect the female identity &#8230;&#8230;. Oooops, I gave out my secrets.


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## Sublime

rockDAWG said:


> they register with a guy name to protect the female identity &#8230;&#8230;.


I think this happens more often than people realize. Sad to say but guys don't take advice/help from women very well unless it's cooking or knitting or some other foo-foo girly task.


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## junkrig

Sublime said:


> I think this happens more often than people realize. Sad to say but guys don't take advice/help from women very well unless it's cooking or knitting or some other foo-foo girly task.


A guy wouldn't want to ignore advice from Denise or DR (or maybe some others) if they were holding a cast iron skillet for some foo foo girly task.:hammer :laugher :laugher


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## Sublime

junkrig said:


> A guy wouldn't want to ignore advice from Denise or DR (or maybe some others) if they were holding a cast iron skillet for some foo foo girly task.:hammer :laugher :laugher


I know for a fact that e-cast iron skillets don't hurt nearly as bad as real cast iron skillets. :laugher


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## junkrig

Sublime said:


> I know for a fact that e-cast iron skillets don't hurt nearly as bad as real cast iron skillets. :laugher


Harder to fry up fish in, too


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## rockDAWG

Sublime said:


> I think this happens more often than people realize. Sad to say but guys don't take advice/help from women very well unless it's cooking or knitting or some other foo-foo girly task.


Men and women are created differently to serve the function of protecting the survival of species. However, in terms of intelligent and organization skills and focus, there are no difference. As matter of fact, women are likely to do better than men. They do it because necessity, simply women out live men by 10 to 25 years. Women learn and succeed.

I have the fortune to work with many capable and well trained female colleagues, I don't see any gender differences. In fact I hire many more female professionals than the male counterpart. When it comes to summer research internship job or part time job, I hire exclusively female students. I look for excellent SAT score and GPA (3.5 plus). The male students in general not as mature and less focused as female student. Just like everything else, there is always an exception. If they caught my eyes, they will be given an opportunity to prove themselves.

Likewise, there are a lot dumb peoples getting into our system, but it only take 30 sec to read their CV and cover letter to know what they have. A short phone interview will confirm that.

When I read the posts, I am color blind, gender blind, and religion blind. I care about the accuracy and merit of the post. One side note, I find it pathetic to see all grown men kissing up to the new lady posters. Some enjoy the flitting and attention, some just fade away because of it.

I hope Sailnet remains a sailing site, not for hooking up. There are plenty of these sites around.


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## deborahmaas

I have only recently posting and really can't tell who the women are. I am open to anyone's advise as long as it's valid.


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## Donna_F

Welcome Deborah!

I know, it can be hard to tell from the username who the women are in the forum. Most of the responses in the herSailnet section are from men!

There is a lot of valid information in the forum. Sometimes you get different opinions on the same subject. All the different opinions may be valid, but sometimes you have to figure out which one fits your situation.


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## deborahmaas

Thanks, I just saw the topic and thought it odd that the women would be silent. I ask way more questions than my husband. He would rather take four times as long figuring something out himself than track down someone who knows to ask. I am a firm believer in taking advantage of those who have gone before me.


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## deniseO30

Hi Deb! Welcome aboard! Yes it's hard to id who's who. One of my irritants. People that only ID the spouse and seem to have none of their own is another!


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## blt2ski

Then sometimes you can not tell by the name......

I remember another thread in another forum, the handle was DEB. A lot thought the person was female using a shortened Debbie to Deb......Turns out said male was using his Initials! IE he was a Dan or doug or some such thing........

anyway, its a saturday, off to work of all things. oh yeah, one gets somewhat used to the m/f differences having grown up with 5 sisters and mom......then again, not sure I will. I will say, ALL have given me good advice on things thru the years!

Marty


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## Jace2

"Most of us are not as bold as the other gender into entering discussions which may lead to arguments on how things should be right or wrong. Just the nature of the beast." said Melrna.

Exactly. It's testosterone. We got it, they don't. Well, not in the arrogant quantities that we have.

I had a female friend tell me that women can talk smack just like men, it's just that they don't revel in it like men do. We men are a rough lot, mouthy, aggressive, a bit crass, and seem to always be ready for a fight.

And strangely, women love us for it.

Now _THAT'S_ sexy!

I don't get it, but as the above says, Nature of the Beast!


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## almca

We are too busy organizing the men in our life to post unless we have something big to say!! Not so much time for idle surfin. 
1 husband 3 sons, thank God the boat is a she!


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## ArcherBowman

Hmmm . . . room here for a Beyonce cover: "All the silent ladies!"


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## SoftJazz

Sad to say, I've found that men tend to not take the female sailors seriously around here too often, unless they do something like get a captain's license or anything on that order. I've asked lots of questions & tend to get ignored, put down or otherwise treated like an ignorant ass for asking. But they'll let me clean their boats - yep, they'll take that. And they'll act shocked when I don't panic in severe weather. 

As far as not posting much, I'm not on line much.


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## deniseO30

SJ, Even on the job when I had a crew working on an installation, the clients very often would ask about details and technical things from the guys working for me, instead of me, and I'd be standing right there or nearby LOL This is often after I've already met with them and answered the same questions when I sold the installation. 

In forums like this; when people ask about HVAC things people tell them to talk an "expert" LOL then when I do finally offer help or advice someone nit picks what I'm saying rather then try and help the OP. 

So glad I'm not an angry feminist anymore!


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## sawingknots

in reality the gender of the poster shouldn't be an issue only the logic ,correctness of the advice is important[i do usually read your posts denise


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## deniseO30

Thank you SK!


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## sawingknots

i'm really not sucking up but i have took note of your expertise before,everyone has different experiences and many have learned from them,only a fool takes advice from a fool


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## Bene505

Denice,

I have you grouped into the category of "sails to cool places". There's no gender involved with that category. It does mean a lot of sailing experience.

That, and maybe the "should be jealous of" category. But then I'm planning to sail through the winter again.

Regards,
Brad


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## smackdaddy

SoftJazz said:


> Sad to say, I've found that men tend to not take the female sailors seriously around here too often, unless they do something like get a captain's license or anything on that order. I've asked lots of questions & tend to get ignored, put down or otherwise treated like an ignorant ass for asking. But they'll let me clean their boats - yep, they'll take that. And they'll act shocked when I don't panic in severe weather.
> 
> As far as not posting much, I'm not on line much.


Have you seen my latest race write-up? Two very attractive, very able, very hard-ass ladies on our crew. And trust me...they weren't the quiet type.

Sailing Chicks Rock.

(And Denise Rules.)


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## RedtheBear

Two cents worth from the Bear:
I will be the first the admit that I have learned much more from women than men. I have found women to better teachers, more patient and understanding, usually more complete and through with instructions, unafraid to question and quicker to see results, good and bad. I have found these things by sailing with them as crew and passengers and even in comand. To the Ladies of Sail, God Bless Them!


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## Wilmslow

*women sailing and posts??*

Is the reason why not so many women post to sites like this is that they are all too busy running the house, working full time, sailing in the summer and helping to refit in the winter never mind looking after family - kids aged parents huband/skipper?? Do we have the free time?? If we do, are we spending catching up with best friends who we don't get to see so much during the summer as we are sailing? Is that a reason do you think??


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## Miraclo

Um, with all due respect, do any of you ever talk any real sailing?

As a fairly new woman captain who has just joined Sailnet, I was really hoping to find a group of women (okay, some men, too, why not?) who were interested in exchanging tips on like refurbishing teak, most clever sail trim, how to sail as close-hauled as possible, what % heel you favor, etc.,...
Will my hopes be dashed here?
Hope not.


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## Faster

Miraclo said:


> Um, with all due respect, do any of you ever talk any real sailing?
> 
> As a fairly new woman captain who has just joined Sailnet, I was really hoping to find a group of women (okay, some men, too, why not?) who were interested in exchanging tips on like refurbishing teak, most clever sail trim, how to sail as close-hauled as possible, what % heel you favor, etc.,...
> Will my hopes be dashed here?
> Hope not.


Welcome.. nice to have you here.

Plenty of discussion on the topics you listed, but I suppose they are of wide enough interest that they go into general discussion, or learning to sail rather than hersailnet. Of course you are free to start a thread in hersailnet on any of those topics, and I encourage you to do so.


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## Miraclo

Thank you. And please forgive me if I am awkward at first. I checked the first postings on this thread and the last, but now it occurs to me that if I didn't check the middle I may be jumping to conclusions. My bad.
I don't really know how to get my head wrapped around what Sailnet is and how to become familiar with it all, and with who all!
Probably will stumble a bit, sorry!
If there are long time regulars, will they want to hear from an upstart?


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## Capt Len

Some may still have to learn the tide floats all boats. I ,for one , look forward to the flood.


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## deniseO30

Welcome to the "silent majority" section of Sailnet Miraclo! Upstart? Nah! just jump in and post and ask and tell and give advice. When someone comes out of the woodwork and posts something negative on one of your discussions don't let em stop you. just use the "ignore" feature" if they really bother you.


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## bljones

Miraclo said:


> If there are long time regulars, will they want to hear from an upstart?


Absolutely. Welcome aboard, and don't be afraid to introduce yourself in the Introduction forum.


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## bljones

deniseO30 said:


> Upstart? Nah! just jump in and post and ask and tell and give advice. When someone comes out of the woodwork and posts something negative on one of your discussions don't let em stop you. just use the "ignore" feature" if they really bother you.


Well said, Denise. Now, get back to the galley and make me a sammich.



(ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh, I am in SO much trouble for that one.)


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## Donna_F

Welcome to Sailnet!



Miraclo said:


> I don't really know how to get my head wrapped around what Sailnet is and how to become familiar with it all, and with who all!


As I've often said here, Sailnet is like having a bunch of sailors hang out at your house without having to feed them. There are lots of opinions, good advice, bad advice, jokes, fun. Sailnet is kind of what you make it for yourself.



Miraclo said:


> If there are long time regulars, will they want to hear from an upstart?


Absolutely! That's how you become familiar with everyone and everyone with you. Sometimes you have to have a thick skin, however, and not take things personally. Keep reminding yourself that no one here knows you so if you receive a negative response to something you write, it's a reaction to what you wrote, not to _you_ (unless of course you come across as belligerent and a totally unsafe sailor, then all bets are off  ).


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## Melrna

Welcome 
We always welcome upstarts, old starts and just starts.


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## wingNwing

... and given the date, new starts? (Welcome aboard)


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## PBzeer

Don't forget, everyone was new at one point. Welcome to Sailnet.


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## LandLocked66c

Aren't there only like two women sailnetters anyways?


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## almca

Don't spend much time in hersailnet as too many of the discussions become mired in smut. What is risqué banter on the deck at the sailing club face to face, comes across as dirty old men online. I'd rather be cleaning seagull poo from my deck again than scrolling pages of innuendo to get to the good info buried in all the posts. What is fun over a beer at the bar, becomes tiresome when you are actually looking for real advice or experience. I live and sail in a family of 4 males, one a teenager so I can handle smutty humour.... But I'd rather give it a miss in a Her-centred forum. Waiting for the first to call me a wowser but you did ask why many of stayed quiet!


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## bljones

One person's innuendo and smut is another person's inclusive and accepting banter.
Ialmca, if you don't like the status quo, change it. Get proactive. Start threads, offer input, give of yourself, ms. 6-posts-since-april, instead of finding reasons why not to contribute.

Hope to hear from you.


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## deniseO30

I've met some of the guys.. most weren't dirty.. even smelled ok too! And it was a 98% humid day with temps nearly as high.


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## LandLocked66c

almca said:


> Don't spend much time in hersailnet as too many of the discussions become mired in smut. What is risqué banter on the deck at the sailing club face to face, comes across as dirty old men online. I'd rather be cleaning seagull poo from my deck again than scrolling pages of innuendo to get to the good info buried in all the posts. What is fun over a beer at the bar, becomes tiresome when you are actually looking for real advice or experience. I live and sail in a family of 4 males, one a teenager so I can handle smutty humour.... But I'd rather give it a miss in a Her-centred forum. Waiting for the first to call me a wowser but you did ask why many of stayed quiet!


Wow, you sound like a pleasure to be around! :laugher


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## TropicCat

almca said:


> Don't spend much time in hersailnet as too many of the discussions become mired in smut. ...


Some mistake Sailnet for a dating website. She'll take all of 5 minutes to figure things out..


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## svHyLyte

wingNwing said:


> OTOH, I only learn when I'm listening. Anything I say, I already know.. ..


As for the first sentiment, it applies universally ("trans-gender"?); As for the second...too many already hold that opinion, whether deservedly or not (frequently, but not always, a predominately male characteristic?).


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## tjvanginkel

*Less woman sailors?*

I think the big reason for less woman posting is that there are simply less woman sailors. On race days at our Sailing Club the skippers are almost exclusively men, and the ratio of men to women as crew is around 5 to 1 on a good woman day. I skippered our boat in a well attended race, 100 ish boats and looked around me at the skippers meeting and did not notice one other woman! (Don't take this to mean I am a racer, I am not, we have a cruising boat but join in the races occasionally just for the fun of it) I find even in the sailing community it is usually the men who are interested in talking about boat bits, sails, lines, etc. not so many of the women are interested.
I personally don't understand why there are less woman than men who love sailing and talking about sailing but it sure seems that way. At the same time it doesn't really bother me because I have people to talk about boat bits and sailing with and it doesn't matter whats happening between their legs! Whats going on in their heads is much more important! 
tjvanginkel (a girl)


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## deniseO30

just loves to post on internet forums been doing it for years SHE'S EVERYWHERE! EEK!


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## helenwiley

deniseO30 said:


> Sailing is so sexist that the ladies here feel too inferior to post?
> 
> They are treated rudely or not taken seriously?
> 
> Anything they say is invalidated?
> 
> OK to rant Ladies!


Here's my rant.

Many men tend to be dismissive of our opinions, observations, and insights. Also I have noticed that men tend to think their way is the right way, even though there can be multiple strategies for solving a problem.

Men to want to control discourse through overstated opinion, often not backed by fact or reason. We women tend to back away from confrontation.

Also one must remember that males want dominance; females want consensus. Being dismissive, rude, and condescending is just another strategy to gain an advantage. We must understand this weakness in men and cut them some slack.


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## Donna_F

helenwiley said:


> Here's my rant.
> 
> Many men tend to be dismissive of our opinions, observations, and insights. Also I have noticed that men tend to think their way is the right way, even though there can be multiple strategies for solving a problem.
> 
> Men to want to control discourse through overstated opinion, often not backed by fact or reason. We women tend to back away from confrontation.
> 
> Also one must remember that males want dominance; females want consensus. Being dismissive, rude, and condescending is just another strategy to gain an advantage. We must understand this weakness in men and cut them some slack.


Wow, Helen. I hope you continued to maintain the "many" down to your last paragraph and didn't mean "all" by then, and that last sentence sounded awfully close to being condescending if I misread intended sarcasm. If not, I feel extremely fortunate that I haven't crossed paths with the men that you have. Sure, I've come across some bad eggs and I'm not deluded into thinking there aren't more but happily I didn't have to deal with them long enough to impact my life to the point where I feel that the majority of men are the same. From the IT guys I work with to the marina personnel, I just don't see it that often. The few ignoramuses that I've come across on this forum are far outnumbered by the men who seem like genuinely nice and helpful people. Some can be a little gruff at times but I don't mistake that for anything other than, well, gruffness.

Thinking about it, over all I've encountered more women who exhibit those traits (domineering, condescending, opinionated, etc.) than men. Consensus wasn't on their agenda. They may have thought they were doing what they needed to do to survive in a "man's world" and if that worked for them so be it. I didn't find it very attractive and I chose not to let them impact my life either.

The people I respect the most (male or female) are those that can be strong, offer constructive criticism and still leave others, and themselves, with their dignity.


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## chef2sail

> Also one must remember that males want dominance; females want consensus. Being dismissive, rude, and condescending is just another strategy to gain an advantage. We must understand this weakness in men and cut them some slack. Helen Wiley


Ouch. After reading this I felt I should go and hide and ask forgiveness.

I would have to agree with Donna. Painting a whole gender with such a broad negative stroke is somethoing even Dr Phil doesnt do. Sounds like you have had some bad experiences.

Most of the men and women I have met here are kind, knowledgeable, and also respectful. I have also met quite a few in person and find them to be great people to be around. Though many of us have different levels of experience in sailing you can always learn new things from a newcommer as well as an old salt, from either gender.

Dave


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## -OvO-

I had a long post prepared here and thought better of it. I will say simply that I believe there was some truth in helenwiley's post (and you can find some examples right here in this thread), a big helping of self-serving stereotype, and a bunch of mis-attributed observation. 

Perhaps it would be better for women to answer the question by describing their own personal reasons for posting, or not, rather than trying to ascribe motives to people other than themselves, and reviving twenty years of internet gender wars.

For example: "I don't post because I don't think I really have a lot to add to the conversation. It seems like there are lots of other people who have a lot more experience than I do." Or, "I don't post much because it upsets me to have my posts picked apart, taken out of context and criticised by people who can't even spell." Or even, "I guess you're right, I don't post much. Frankly, I think that a lot of the more-prolific posters are blowhards and I don't want people to think of me that way."

OTOH, denise did ask for rants, so I suppose rants are to be expected.


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## deniseO30

helenwiley said:


> Here's my rant.
> 
> Many men tend to be dismissive of our opinions, observations, and insights. Also I have noticed that men tend to think their way is the right way, even though there can be multiple strategies for solving a problem.
> 
> Men to want to control discourse through overstated opinion, often not backed by fact or reason. We women tend to back away from confrontation.
> 
> Also one must remember that males want dominance; females want consensus. Being dismissive, rude, and condescending is just another strategy to gain an advantage. We must understand this weakness in men and cut them some slack.


I agree with Helen for real time discussions.. but online, it's less of a problem imho. I love a good rant! (as long as they don't become personal attacks)


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## Capt Len

Some times you really are surrounded by jerks .Little to do with gender .


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## jameswilson29

It's kind of ironic that more men than women have posted on this thread...


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## Ajax_MD

helenwiley said:


> Here's my rant.
> 
> Many men tend to be dismissive of our opinions, observations, and insights. Also I have noticed that men tend to think their way is the right way, even though there can be multiple strategies for solving a problem.
> 
> Men to want to control discourse through overstated opinion, often not backed by fact or reason. We women tend to back away from confrontation.
> 
> Also one must remember that males want dominance; females want consensus. Being dismissive, rude, and condescending is just another strategy to gain an advantage. We must understand this weakness in men and cut them some slack.


Feel better now?


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## youmeandthed

That's cause our wife's/girlfriends/mistresses control everything else in our lives... this is all we got.


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## Squidd

helenwiley said:


> Here's my rant.
> 
> Many men tend to be dismissive of our opinions, observations, and insights. Also I have noticed that men tend to think their way is the right way, even though there can be multiple strategies for solving a problem.
> 
> Also one must remember that males want dominance; females want consensus. Being dismissive, rude, and condescending is just another strategy to gain an advantage. We must understand this weakness in men and cut them some slack.


Hey wait a second...I resemble that remark...


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## jameswilson29

It's scary how accurate she is...


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## deniseO30

"male privilege" was one of my pet peeves. = why more men post on a women's forum then women! 

And give advice when it's not needed........... 
Tell you if you did good or bad because you "need" his approval. 
Tell you to get his coffee, dinner, and wash his underwear..... 
Takes the wheel.. makes her struggle with 40+ lb anchors, tying lines making everything "ready" for docking while he screams orders that no one can understand but him and looks to see who's impressed,

with the guys; he's thee most interesting man in the world" because that's what boys have to do in the company of others for them to be men? 

- - - - - - - - - - -- 
I used to be angry.. then I discovered I was feminist and I had a way and means to vent my anger. Now I'm still feminist, just not angry. I open doors for old men and cute guys. they do the same for me.  it's OK... I don't put my agenda on them - they wouldn't get it anyway, because I don't "look" like a feminist.. (what do they look like anyway?) 

I'm all done with marches, demonstrations and speaking at rallies and equality events. I still believe! I just passed the soapbox over the the younger people. 

It's affirming see men marching with women in recent years. Women's rights have evolved and thankfully much of the militancy has subsided... Men have learned to buy and wash underwear and make dinner and still be Daddy's, husbands and lovers with out feeling emasculated.


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## Donna_F

jameswilson29 said:


> It's kind of ironic that more men than women have posted on this thread...


It is like that on most of the herSailnet threads. It makes some women really mad. I noticed that the female-centric section on Cruisers Forum is closer to what most women expect here. Less, if any, men post messages there.


----------



## captflood

GREETINGS EARTHLINGS; Megga Star in the Big Boat World Dame Ellin McCarther. I sail on 72' sail-training vessel what the Lads do with BFI (brute Force and Ignarance) the Girrrrrrrls have to do the same with skill tecnique and it knows the macho out of the lads SO you go and show the lads how is done with finess and style GO SAFE .


----------



## PBzeer

Simply having a herSailnet implies the ladies come here for reasons other than the men. And while there are certainly gender specific issues, by and large, they aren't one's you're going to discuss in an open forum anyway. So all it really does, is validate the stereotype.

One need not be a feminist, a Mama Grizzly, or any other label, to share and learn.


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## Minnewaska

Help me find the hisSailnet forum.


----------



## Squidd

yeah...we should have out own forum with a secret password and handshake and "no girlz allowed" sign so they can't come in and talk bad about us and hurt our feelings...


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## L124C

deniseO30 said:


> Sailing is so sexist that the ladies here feel too inferior to post?
> They are treated rudely or not taken seriously?
> Anything they say is invalidated?
> OK to rant Ladies!


I (as a testosterone laden male), for one, have taken everything you, and every other member have had to say at face value. Gender was never and issue.


----------



## helenwiley

Yes, I do feel better after the rant.

I don't think all men are chest-beating savages who run around raping and pillaging literally or figuratively.

The Battle of the Sexes has gone on as long as there have been two genders. We won't solve the problem here, but we can examine it as it relates to sailing. Women tend to be concerned with the ambience of sailing--those aspects that touch on the affective domain. Men tend to be more concerned with the engineering and physics of sailing. NOT that women don't concern themselves with matters of engineering and physics, survival may depend on those skills.

So with those ideas in mind, one would conclude that there won't be scores of women sailors posting on threads dealing with through the hull fittings or step by step instructions for priming a diesel fuel system. We know those are important and don't dismiss them, but we may be more interested in threads about pressure cookers and dealing with dampness why living aboard.
___________________
Helen

_Cornucoipa_ Finnsailer 35
Savannah, GA


----------



## OlderandWiser

In case you have not noticed some men like to argue a point to death. We don't. I may offer an opinion but that's it. I do not want to get slapped down for it or have to defend it. I like the act of sailing. I like learning from others to become a better sailor or learn new techniques from men and women. Some of these boards can be a little intimidating for some of the ladies.


----------



## OlderandWiser

On another note. My husband does not sail so i wanted to meet fellow women sailors. I started up a women's sailing program at our sailing squadron. I have been shocked at the turn out. Close to 20 ladies have shown up. And new members are still joining. Most sail or help sail. All don't feel 100 percent confident. So 
we are having fun and learning from each other. It's a riot that the guys are volunteering to help us. God bless them we love them but a few hours of laughs with the girls is good stuff.


----------



## Minnewaska

There is more than one male professional chef here that has discussed pressure cookers, many men that have asked about boat dampness and, I for one, count among many men interested in the ambiance of sailing.

I've never smacked a sailor down for their opinion, as a reference to their gender. I have, however, been told by a women poster here than my response was "male". The response she referenced, by the way, was one that suggested we NOT have gender differences in our perspective.

We are here to discuss sailing. There is no need to segregate mechanics in the Gear and Maintenance forum, instructors in Learn to Sail, or Jeanneau owners in the Jeanneau forum. I see no reason to segregate male and female either.


----------



## bljones

Minnewaska said:


> I for one, count among many men interested in the ambiance of sailing.


dude, I thought you were a chick.


----------



## Donna_F

Minnewaska said:


> We are here to discuss sailing. There is no need to segregate mechanics in the Gear and Maintenance forum, instructors in Learn to Sail, or Jeanneau owners in the Jeanneau forum.


The Sailnet built-in search feature is crap. It is helpful to me at least to have the categories so it's less time consuming to find my interest du jour. All of the subjects in one long, in-line list of postings would be a nightmare.



Minnewaska said:


> I see no reason to segregate male and female either.


It's kind of not segregation in the pure sense if you have a choice. The women don't _have_ to only post in herSailnet. That said, while I'm comfortable posting in the non-female-centric area, I don't think that all women are. The forum certainly can't provide space to accommodate all personality types, but I recognize that there are women out there who may be entering this sport alone, with no support from family or friends and who may be pushing their personal envelopes to not only do that but to ask questions of perfect strangers. Should we discourage their personal growth by saying if you can't stand the wind get off the deck? I hope not. I've done things in which I've stretched my personal boundaries so I know what it feels like. Sure, the people (women and men) who can't get past the fact that in most cases the gruff responses are sometimes made without regard to gender and aren't meant as an attack against their _person_ but against their _approach or theory_ may drop out, but then there are those who will begin to reach inside themselves and develop their own way of dealing with such responses. They will hopefully come to realize that in life, on these forums, and on their boat when they get there, part of learning and growing and reaching a goal is dealing with obstacles (human and otherwise) and figuring out a way to learn from those obstacles and turn that knowledge into something that moves you forward.

This is what I love about sailing. It's more than just learning how to use the wind and current and all the rest to move a boat from point A to point B. If one is open to it, it's also about opening up one's own mental horizons beyond your expectations.


----------



## PBzeer

Well said Donna.


----------



## Minnewaska

DRFerron said:


> The Sailnet built-in search feature is crap. It is helpful to me at least to have the categories so it's less time consuming to find my interest du jour. All of the subjects in one long, in-line list of postings would be a nightmare.


I wasn't clear enough. I wasnt asvocating the elimination of descrete forums. I meant we shouldn't limit participation in Gear and Mantenance to only mechanics any more than having a forum off limits to anyone other than a specific gender.



> It's kind of not segregation in the pure sense if you have a choice. The women don't _have_ to only post in herSailnet. That said, while I'm comfortable posting in the non-female-centric area, I don't think that all women are. The forum certainly can't provide space to accommodate all personality types, but I recognize that there are women out there who may be entering this sport alone, with no support from family or friends and who may be pushing their personal envelopes to not only do that but to ask questions of perfect strangers. Should we discourage their personal growth by saying if you can't stand the wind get off the deck? I hope not. I've done things in which I've stretched my personal boundaries so I know what it feels like. Sure, the people (women and men) who can't get past the fact that in most cases the gruff responses are sometimes made without regard to gender and aren't meant as an attack against their _person_ but against their _approach or theory_ may drop out, but then there are those who will begin to reach inside themselves and develop their own way of dealing with such responses. They will hopefully come to realize that in life, on these forums, and on their boat when they get there, part of learning and growing and reaching a goal is dealing with obstacles (human and otherwise) and figuring out a way to learn from those obstacles and turn that knowledge into something that moves you forward.
> 
> This is what I love about sailing. It's more than just learning how to use the wind and current and all the rest to move a boat from point A to point B. If one is open to it, it's also about opening up one's own mental horizons beyond your expectations.


It's not segregation if we can all post wherever we choose, that's all I'm advocating. We can and do have female only clubs. But then, male only clubs must be embraced as well.


----------



## chef2sail

Sailors come in many shapes, sizes, sex, sexual preferences, colors and religions. There is nothing in my genes makes me a better or worse sailor than a woman or even the next man. If having a womens sailing forum, womans sailing club invites more women to sail I am for it. If my wife or any other woman chose to belong or go to an all woman sailing school to learn more offshore sailing techniques I would encourage her as that is what she feel comfortable with, however she does not feel that way.

The ONLY reason I got involved in the post was the rant a poster took which painted men with a BROAD brush and generalized about them in a condescending way. In life I tend to object to painting any person, group, religion. color, sex or sexual preference with a broad brush so seeing it here it was a natural reaction for me to object.

This was followed by



> "I don't post much because it upsets me to have my posts picked apart, taken out of context and criticised by people who can't even spell." Or even, "I guess you're right, I don't post much. Frankly, I think that a lot of the more-prolific posters are blowhards and I don't want people to think of me that way."


Well I am a notoriuos bad typist who cannot spell which by the number of my prolific posts I must be a blowhard also.



> Many men tend to be dismissive of our opinions, observations, and insights. Also I have noticed that men tend to think their way is the right way, even though there can be multiple strategies for solving a problem.
> 
> Men to want to control discourse through overstated opinion, often not backed by fact or reason. We women tend to back away from confrontation.
> 
> Also one must remember that males want dominance; females want consensus. Being dismissive, rude, and condescending is just another strategy to gain an advantage. We must understand this weakness in men and cut them some slack.


With all due respect to the poster, I will continue to be inclusive and help as many othe SN as I can. I also love organizing and attending get togethers of Sailnetters as well as use the forum to LEARN from others of all sexes, colors etc and also share the small experiences I have had in my 40 years of inshore and offshore sailing. Camradiere is one of the greatest parts of the Sailnet experience. Painting a whole sex with a broad brush of negative generalization does nothing to enhance that experience.

Dave


----------



## SVAuspicious

chef2sail said:


> Well I am a notoriuos bad typist who cannot spell which by the number of my prolific posts I must be a blowhard also.


We've been meaning to talk to you about your grammar.

*grin*


----------



## chef2sail

Chef2sail<----------went to the Gordon Ramsey/ Iron Chef Morimoto School of Grammar and Ebonics Spelling


----------



## Donna_F

Minnewaska said:


> We can and do have female only clubs. But then, male only clubs must be embraced as well.


One of the chat room regulars didn't speak to me for two weeks when he discovered (after chatting with me all summer) that I am female. Does that mean I can participate in both clubs?


----------



## Ajax_MD

DRFerron said:


> *One of the chat room regulars didn't speak to me for two weeks when he discovered (after chatting with me all summer) that I am female.* Does that mean I can participate in both clubs?


Are you serious? Lame.


----------



## svHyLyte

helenwiley said:


> ...The Battle of the Sexes has gone on as long as there have been two genders. We won't solve the problem here, ...


Ah... No, you won't, here or elsewhere. There is too much Fraternizing with the Enemy!


----------



## bljones

DRFerron said:


> Does that mean I can participate in both clubs?


Only if there's pictures or video.


----------



## Minnewaska

DRFerron said:


> One of the chat room regulars didn't speak to me for two weeks when he discovered (after chatting with me all summer) that I am female. Does that mean I can participate in both clubs?


Sure. I will hold the door open for you.


----------



## Mormandeus

I'm all for equality for women. If they want to give up thier superiority...that's fine by me.


----------



## Donna_F

mikieg said:


> i ant.


Are you serious?


----------



## sawingknots

i kindof think women in general have a slightly different point-of-view but depending on the individual i don't see women as being inferior at whatever,my youngest daughter once changed a flat tire because her now husband had no idea about it,kindof shatters the manly stance huh


----------



## Donna_F

mikieg said:


> i for one will never disrespect based on gender.


You kinda did, to both women _and_ men. And probably the gays and lesbians won't clamor for you to be their champion.


----------



## sawingknots

mikieg said:


> haha.


nice back step,i give it a 10. lol


----------



## -OvO-

Okay, *this* thread has clearly lost its way. How long did it take to devolve into gender wars? One page? mikieg, I would like to respectfully submit that you consider taking a walk on the wild side. It seems to suit you philosophically, the only trouble is finding a way to deal with your shame. Perhaps you might take a week's vacation somewhere anonymous, give it a try and see if you like it. If you don't, no real harm done. If you do, well, you have a world of new opportunities. Might make your living situation a little sticky temporarily, but I'm confident those hurdles could be overcome.


----------



## Minnewaska

mikieg said:


> ?


There has been a minor amount of substance in the thread, such as the discussion over whether women should have a forum where men are not permitted to post. Should men have one that excludes women? I, for one, don't think either makes sense, despite clearly recognizing differences between the genders on average.

References to gay, however, are just childish. DR is a respectable poster here and should have torn you a new one for that post. Picture a couple of hundred of us locked and loaded, if you don't straighten up.


----------



## Donna_F

Thank you Minnewaska.

I don't shy away from a healthy discussion but mikieg just wants to fight. As much as I'm tempted to rip away, any additional response from me to him would just add fuel to his weak flame and the rest of the forum members don't need to be subjected to that.


----------



## chef2sail

> hey DR, you seem hung up on this gay thing. you care to share it with us, or are you going to continue to insinuate?-mikieg


This is inappropriate. Donna is a substantial person who blogs here to help others and also for the commradiere of fellow sailors. She has met many of us and also organizes get togethers of the SN in our area. Threads have no place for personal attacks.

Dave


----------



## bljones

DRFerron said:


> Thank you Minnewaska.
> 
> I don't shy away from a healthy discussion but mikieg just wants to fight. As much as I'm tempted to rip away, any additional response from me to him would just add fuel to his weak flame and the rest of the forum members don't need to be subjected to that.


Sure we do!
Where do you think you are, Cruiser's Forum?


----------



## helenwiley

"Okay, *this* thread has clearly lost its way."

Maybe we did lose our way. What happened was the question of why women don't post here pushed buttons for many people, myself included. We are all speaking from our unique frames of reference. We've all had negative experiences with those who are plumbed differently from ourselves. These events influence our thinking. However we need to realize that our observations and conclusions brought about by these incidents are ours alone, and for us they are valid. These beliefs impose no necessity on anyone else. 

Yes, I've changed tires and even hooked up jumper cables for the guy that had a dead battery.These are necessities of life. A person does what a person has to do, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, or religion. 

In response to mikieg: Who are you to say who is involved in life or not? Does involvement mean physical activity only. What about the interior life--the life of the mind, heart, and soul? 

Have I covered all the philosophical bases here??

Helen Wiley, Cornucopia, Finnsailer 35, Savannah, GA


----------



## Faster

Mikieg... I think you owe DRFerron an apology.. that comment was uncalled for and amounts to pointless baiting. I'd delete the post but it's been quoted so often that's too much work, and the members have already figured you out by the look of it.

Do the right thing...


----------



## TropicCat

helenwiley said:


> ....What about the interior life--the life of the mind, heart, and soul? .....
> 
> Helen Wiley, Cornucopia, Finnsailer 35, Savannah, GA


Why do you think there are 10 lonely guys living on boats posting in this thread?

Guys, if the truth be told, available ladies on sailing forums are almost unheard of... you're all better off sitting on the nearest bar stool practicing the line "Honey, do you want to come over and see my yacht?".


----------



## smackdaddy

DRFerron said:


> Thank you Minnewaska.
> 
> I don't shy away from a healthy discussion but mikieg just wants to fight. As much as I'm tempted to rip away, any additional response from me to him would just add fuel to his weak flame and the rest of the forum members don't need to be subjected to that.


See? This is how it's done. DR rocks.

mikie, on the other hand, not so much. There's funny and there's boneheadedness. Find the line bro.


----------



## mikieg

i encouraged female participation and i get this? WOW!


----------



## smackdaddy

mikieg said:


> i encouraged female participation and i get this? WOW!


Maybe it's your method. Heh-heh.


----------



## Squidd

smackdaddy said:


> Maybe it's your method. Heh-heh.


Argh...I get that from the wife all the time...


----------



## svsundancer

Perhaps because most women sailors don't need to shout their opinions on every subject.


----------



## svsundancer

Unlike most male captains I've sailed with.


----------



## smackdaddy

svsundancer said:


> Unlike most male captains I've sailed with.


Hey sundance - welcome to SN.


----------



## LManess

You know there may be a reason why women don't post their opinion.

When I was sailing full time again and again I saw couples sailing where the wife or companion didn't really want to be there. They wanted to be at home, around friends, relatives, or family, not sailing the 7 seas. I know this might sound sexist, but it seemed that 9 times out of 10, if not more, it was the man's dream to go sailing and adventuring and not his wife.

There are many men sailing in far away ports that started with a devoted companion, but wound up sailing alone, because their wife, although trying to be supportive, just finally gave up pretending that cruising was what they wanted to do. I know all the ladies are now offended and angry, but if you actually look around you and go sailing for awhile you will see the truth in what I'm saying.

I also saw quite frequently that since the wife didn't really want to be there to start with, that they didn't really learn much about sailing. They could do it, but it just wasn't something they were all that into, and would involve themselves when needed, but, didn't get much into all the intricate details - like navigating with a sectant for instance.

So, why don't women post - there aren't many out there that really love sailing and the cruising life.

Just one person's opinion.

Linda


----------



## you and me

The sight does not let me reply.


----------



## you and me

And so it does on this here subject. Interesting, somewhat.


----------



## Donna_F

LManess said:


> ... it seemed that 9 times out of 10, if not more, it was the man's dream to go sailing and adventuring and not his wife.
> ...
> So, why don't women post - there aren't many out there that really love sailing and the cruising life.
> 
> Just one person's opinion.
> 
> Linda


It's a big world and I suppose that all of us have a different experience in our little bit of it. I guess that once again I've been lucky in that I don't find this to be the case at all in my tiny part of it

We belong to two sail clubs, one based at a local lake and another on the Bay. In both clubs the women are not only supportive and on the boats, but in one club at least a third of the women started out singlehanding big boats before finding their SOs and a few of those have their captain's license (beyond the six pack). Each male Sailnetter that I've met in person who has a SO has one who is supportive and an active participant in the experience. And of course there's forum member Jaye (wingNwing) who is both an accomplished sailor and active in the forum. And now that I think about it, our slip neighbors are couples with both actively engaged (and the woman next to us can dock like a champ).

I do think that not as many women sailors want to join online forums but I don't see evidence that most women don't want to sail at all.


----------



## wingNwing

The only "undesireable" I see here is generalizations. And I'm going to "generalize" that mikieg's behavior is more about proving himself right, than about sharing information. Calls it like he sees it, he says? I think I'm calling it troll.


----------



## Minnewaska

wingNwing said:


> The only "undesireable" I see here is generalizations. And I'm going to "generalize" that mikieg's behavior is more about proving himself right, than about sharing information. Calls it like he sees it, he says? I think I'm calling it troll.


I agree. It's getting tiresome.

If we want to talk about 0.01%, that would be about the number of memebrs that are asked by a moderator to apologize to another poster. Congrats mikieg, you made it into that pernicious group.


----------



## deniseO30

_peeks in.........gasps..... closes door_ :


----------



## sawingknots

wow,i'm more than a little surprized that i'm not on the 0.01 list,seriously


----------



## smackdaddy

deniseO30 said:


> _peeks in.........gasps..... closes door_ :


Was it the smell or all the empties and dirty underwear on the floor?


----------



## Sublime

mikieg said:


> .


You're either trolling or ??
No, not ALL women go along to appease hubby. Some women are the sailors, own the boat, do all of the maintenance and hubby/boyfriend just goes along to appease the wife/girlfriend.
I'm sorry to hear you haven't met someone like that.


----------



## deniseO30

_wonders how this thread became so testosterone laden. _

Guys you've completely hijacked the intent of this thread! But to be fair, it seems only a few ladies did find this thread interesting enough to post on.


----------



## smackdaddy

deniseO30 said:


> _wonders how this thread became so testosterone laden. _
> 
> Guys you've completely hijacked the intent of this thread! But to be fair, it seems only a few ladies did find this thread interesting enough to post on.


That's actually what's so funny about it. I think I've seen more sailor chicks posting since this dust-up than I've seen in a while.

It's good to see that the sexes can still mix it up a bit. Oh behaaave, baby...


----------



## Ajax_MD

Eww.

The zombie thread is much more fun.


----------



## blt2ski

I must say, after 2 spouses, 25+ yrs of marriage, I have noticed that no matter how good or bad you think you wife is, like you, same goals, likes etc, there will always be something that you like, they do not, they like you do not. At the end of the day, most things are equal, hopefully, there will be times when they go off by themselves to sail and go bowling or bowling the other knits, or some such blather. 
Things like politics, both liked watching the politic, I generally get bored........

life will go on. many as said, probably do not like playing on internet chat rooms...hence not as may come to places like this.

Marty


----------



## helenwiley

Some exchanges I have found baffly. Others have enlightening. For instance, I now have a greater understanding of and sympathy for my friends who refuse to sail with their husbands and prefer sitting home in front of the tele.

There are some really wonderful, full- evolved males here on Sailnet whose voices of reason drown our the grunts and chest-thumping from those of the troglodyte persuasion. 
Helen Wiley, S/V Cornucopia, Finnsailer 35, Savannah, GA


----------



## helenwiley

That would be "baffling" I figure most of you can read typo by now .


----------



## Jeff_H

Evening Folks, 

HerSailNet was created as a a welcoming place where polite conversation between and about women in sailing is supposed to occur. The hope is that this can be a forum where people of any gender and all preferences can come and be treated with respect. Read the sticky... confrontational attitudes are to be left at the door. 

I have removed some of the more offensive posts and hope that the recent events on this thread will not in some way prove a deterent to using this forum as it was intended. 

Respectfully,
Jeff


----------



## deniseO30

_Holds tightly on to the wheel and points to the winches as Jeff clears the deck _


----------



## jameswilson29

helenwiley said:


> There are some really wonderf, full- evolved males here on Sailnet...


Full-evolved male = Liberal Democrat after a waxing :laugher


----------



## PCP

There are few women posting around here regularly, that's a fact and that's also a fact that they are nicer and more polite than most men. I just wish they posted more and that there were more around.

I find the global attitude towards women around here quite paternalistic, like if in what regards sailing they were just the cook and housekeeper while the man is the captain.

Probably that was like that some years ago and given the age of most of the posters it is possible that it is yet for most like that but we have only to look at sailing races to see that more and more women are racing....and cruising and that some of them are beating most of the men, if not all.

I have meet several times all women crews cruising and racing and let me tell you they are always among the ones that it seems to have more fun doing it.

So ladies, please post more, I just love girl's talk and with more girls around I am quite sure this would be an even better site

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Donna_F

PCP said:


> So ladies, please post more, I just love girl's talk and with more girls around I am quite sure this would be an even better site
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


I now have an image in my head of Paulo contentedly sitting in the midst of a bunch of pajama-clad women having a pillow fight, feathers flying around the room.


----------



## jameswilson29

He had the same image, minus the pajamas!


----------



## Squidd

DRFerron said:


> I now have an image in my head of Paulo contentedly sitting in the midst of a bunch of pajama-clad women having a pillow fight, feathers flying around the room.


That's how I picture it too, but without the Paulo...I get all "grunty" when there is more than one chest beating troglodyte in the room...


----------



## PCP

DRFerron said:


> I now have an image in my head of Paulo contentedly sitting in the midst of a bunch of pajama-clad women having a pillow fight, feathers flying around the room.


Hum, I like women but not only that way. On my first job (while I was graduating and working to pay for it) I was the only guy among 18 girls. With time I come to really appreciate their company (no I am not talking about sex) its kind of soft chat and also their murderous humor. No, I did not become gay but later and during my entire live I found myself enjoying more girl's talk than that kind of macho talk that men's normally have.

I was a teacher for most of my life and on school we have more women as teacher than guys so normally I hang out not with male groups but more with women groups, that I found more funny and entertaining and I am proud to say that they consider me as an equal, I mean they confide with me and talk with me in a way they don't talk with other male, you know girl's talk. You don't know how funny is to heard what women really think about men

I have many friends among women and I think I understand them quite well. I don't think the kind of macho dominant perspective common on this site is properly welcoming to women, and that's a pity. I would like to have more around, I like them

Regards

Paulo


----------



## smackdaddy

PCP said:


> I don't think the kind of macho dominant perspective common on this site is properly welcoming to women, and that's a pity. I would like to have more around, I like them


Well then we need to change that...

I would like to step up and formally let all the chicks know how much they are valued around here. The bikini, invented by gentler dudes, Jacques Heim and Louis Reard, is one of mankind's greatest gifts to the universe. And without chicks, it would be nothing but floss and gauze.

So, I ask the rest of my fellow neanderthals to momentarily stand as erect as possible, dust the Dorito crumbs from your lap hair, and join me in raising your half-eaten ostrich leg to God's gift to adventurous dudes everywhere who have the illusion of being macho dominant...

To The Sailing Chicks!


----------



## Faster

Well, it's a scary scenario where Smack comes across as the voice of reason  but +1 to that sentiment.

All we can do is hope that the positive presence of Donna, Jaye and a few others here can be built on.


----------



## Squidd

smackdaddy said:


> ...So, I ask the rest of my fellow neanderthals to momentarily stand as erect as possible, dust the Dorito crumbs from your lap hair, and join me in raising your half-eaten ostrich leg to God's gift to adventurous dudes everywhere who have the illusion of being macho dominant...
> 
> To The Sailing Chicks!


I grunt to that...(I mean agree)...


----------



## bljones

DRFerron said:


> I now have an image in my head of Paulo contentedly sitting in the midst of a bunch of pajama-clad women having a pillow fight, feathers flying around the room.


 I think it's the accent. If mikie had written the same thing, the image would have been mud-wrestling in a double wide.


----------



## wingNwing

Aw, shucks, Smacky. You guys are too much fun. (But I'm well past the age where bikinis are appropriate, trust me on that.) I interrupt the pillow fight to respond to an issue that PCP raises with all thoughtfulness: 


PCP said:


> I find the global attitude towards women around here quite paternalistic, like if in what regards sailing they were just the cook and housekeeper while the man is the captain.
> 
> Probably that was like that some years ago and given the age of most of the posters it is possible that it is yet for most like that ...


The only excuse for this archaic attitude I can think of is that sailing itself is a somewhat archaic mode of transportation. I agree the attitude still seems to exist, but I'm not in the mood to cut anyone slack over it. That attitude was prevalent before the age of computers. Yet by the very act of posting on Sailnet these guys have proven they could adapt to new things, right? So, c'mon, learn to adapt to other social advances as well? Quite a few of the present company *have* gotten it, and are fun to virtually hang out with.

Okay, now back to our regularly scheduled banter ...


----------



## tdw

WnW nails it quite nicely. Sailing is without doubt one of the last holdouts of the overly sexist dinosaur but it is changing and hopefully will continue to do so. I guess its pretty hard to hold onto those old fashioned values when the "little woman" has just gone past you at 25 knots on a foiler Moth or has done e.g. more than the odd Sydney-Hobart as skipper while you've been watching the start on TV. 

Damn it all, I want someone who is going to share my life not simply be an obsequious part of it. I am not a single hander with a cook and bedmate along for the ride (no puns or innuendo intended), I am with her, part owner and crewmate. I am a half way reasonable cook and a half way reasonable sailor. So is the Wombet and after a month off cruising she has the bruises to prove it, has gotten quite fond of the view from the masthead and runs the ship more than adequately when the "skipper" is seasick. *

Oh, yes, and do not call her "admiral" or you might be the one with the bruises. 

* memo to self .... if you insist on gettng pished the night before a passage its probably not a good idea to sail on an empty stomach. 

(not that the above answers the original question, the answer to which I am not at all sure I know.)


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## zeehag

lol just found this thread--i pop into speaking roles when i feel like it--and if i feel like it....i dont wax and i dont have a special shoe locker---why should i with only one pair of them..LOL
i only sail with men i have interviewed extensively and approved before heading out of harbor, so i dont have to "worry" about what a spouse thinks or feels--or kiss up to anyone.
i have FUN....i visit cool places..even stay in some cool places..LOL

and i do not have to get the destination "approved" first, as it is mine.....


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## Donna_F

As someone who is continually mistaken for a man in the forum, are you *sure* there aren't more ladies on SailNet?


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## WDS123

Perhaps the ladies are not posting because they are out sailing - this sailor appears to be enjoying herself:


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## zeehag

ty dr--lol---i dont know why the guys think i am a guy--is it because i fix me boat or know enough about repairing them i can do it meself?? cant be me dress or cologne...LOL
i know some here--i am repairing, others are sailing, and some folks are actually cruising between swirlagigs...we are in remission for the moment.....nothing swirling here.

goodluck with donna over there, guys....


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## Capt.aaron

I just want to say, From the age of 19 thru 23 I was a crew member on a deep sea, sailing ship / research vessel/ school ship. When I joined, the first mate was a woman who taught me most of what I know. I eventually was promoted to first mate when she became the captain. She, to this day, is my mentor on most things Nautical. Later when I started sailing between Key West and Mexico a lot, my girl friend at the time was the best helmsman (much better than me) I have seen to date. Come to think of it, I learned to dive from a woman, I was second engineer to a woman on another ship, and even my Mother was a woman, and she taught me everything else I know.Thank's Ladies.


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## Donna_F

Capt.aaron said:


> ... and even my Mother was a woman,...


Um, good?


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## Capt.aaron

DRFerron said:


> Um, good?


Yes, I was very fortunate in that regard.:laugher


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## wingNwing

Q: Why are the Ladies silent on Sailnet?

A: Because emoticons don't come with sound effects


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## Ajax_MD

> Damn it all, I want someone who is going to share my life not simply be an obsequious part of it. I am not a single hander with a cook and bedmate along for the ride (no puns or innuendo intended), I am with her, part owner and crewmate. I am a half way reasonable cook and a half way reasonable sailor.


This.


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## pointyendfirst

i have been a member for several years but almost exclusively lurk, partially because i am timid about asking for help and partially because i am afraid of being beat down or jumped on if I say anything. I find it upsetting how quickly people jump all over posters for saying things that i don't think are really meant to be offensive, and the convo kinda degenerates. Ouch, now i am hiding under the keyboard in case i get shelled for that. 

I do want to say how incredibly helpful i have found these forums- i have read literally thousands of threads and have used so much of the wonderful expertise and experience people have shared here.

I had been looking to the hersailnet as a possible place where i could talk with fellow female sailors, especially any who like me are relatively underconfident in their technical skills. I am in the process of a fairly major refit of my boat and for someone who previously regarded changing a lightbulb as a challenge, this is scary stuff. Especially as I am doing it in east africa where there is a real shortage of skilled people who you could hire as teachers or consultants. My club here is heavily british and south african, so being a yank female skipper makes me feel pretty isolated.

I would love to hear from other women who have taught themselves to work on their boats e.g. rewiring, re-doing standing rigging, etc. and how they did it! My husband is an absolute darling but isn't interested in sailing in the least, and isn't handy, so i am starting from scratch here.....

any words of wisdom from women out there who taught themselves to fix their boats or at least learned and did it on their own? any courses you could recommend? I am a decent sailor, but am looking at doing some of the ASA or RYA courses especially navigation to further my skills, but i don't see much in terms of courses for repair/maintenance.

oh well, that was my rant. I will probably be looking for the retract post button soon......


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## Donna_F

Pointy - 

You did all that and still call yourself "timid"?????

You overcame the challenge to take on refitting a boat on your own. Seems to me that ignoring people you'll probably never meet face to face (although you sound like someone I'd love to have a cool drink with) should be at the bottom of your list of things to be wary of.

I too, bought a boat to refit on my own. Albeit a small one. I took refuge in the fact that any mistakes that don't sink me or set it on fire wouldn't be known to anyone but me and just plugged away.


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## bljones

pointy, bravo!
I hope to see you continue to contribute.


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## smackdaddy

Pointy - you rock. And don't worry about the beatdowns. We've all got your back.

Welcome to SN sista!

What's your boat?


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## pointyendfirst

ok this totally cracks me up- DRFyou are my hero, and I would love to have that cool drink when next I am in the B'more/Annapolis area where i am based in the states. SSCA Gam/Annapolis Sailboat show is on my calender if i can get a FF ticket!

BLJ I have read all your Dock 6 stuff and have gotten lots of ideas for refit and sail and life, and SD you are someone i look up to and fear!!! (kidding, sorta)

thank you all for being nice. It has been an interesting process becoming a skipper. I moved here to TZ 5 years ago with a winch handle, intending to find a boat to fit under it. I found a 1967 Westerly 28 which is a fantastic little boat for a beginner, and have gradually worked my way up to several week long cruises to Zanzibar with my husband and one 10 day cruise down to Mafia an island about 70? miles south of here. Unfortunately, 2 weeks after that, some friends were taken hostage by Somali pirates east of Mafia so we haven't ventured back down there. (Luckily after 20 months my friends have just been released. I would have been on that boat but decided I didn't have enough faith in the skipper to make the trip to ZA with them. whew.)

I used my angle grinder for the first time yesterday- big excitement! still in the bashing out stage, but hope to start on the upward slope e.g. think i have figured out how to re-install all my fixed portlights which are currently in my living room....

thanks again for all the wonderful info as well as quietly shared camaraderie i have enjoyed from you all!


----------



## pointyendfirst

And Donna, I really like your approach "I too, bought a boat to refit on my own. Albeit a small one. I took refuge in the fact that any mistakes that don't sink me or set it on fire wouldn't be known to anyone but me and just plugged away. "

After very publicly t-boning a moored boat, then beaching my poor girl (both long stories too embarrassing to tell), then basically snorkeling a coral reef while sailing in what appeared to be negative water under our keel, I figure i've tried lots of ways to destroy my sturdy and tolerant boat, and yet she still sails me!


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## Faster

Somehow, Pointy, I think you're going to do just fine!

You may be our only member in East Africa!!


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## Donna_F

pointyendfirst said:


> ...
> After very publicly t-boning a moored boat, then beaching my poor girl (both long stories too embarrassing to tell), then basically snorkeling a coral reef while sailing in what appeared to be negative water under our keel, I figure i've tried lots of ways to destroy my sturdy and tolerant boat, and yet she still sails me!


Pft. That's nothing. I took out an entire dock piling trying to get into a slip. The guys on the patrol with me decided to take some of the wood and make it into a necklace...which they presented to me in front of our local Coast Guard brass. In my defense, the piling was rotten through and through and a bird landing on it would have had the same result. Probably.

What doesn't sink your boat or kill you (or anyone else) is a Learning Experience. It's just nice when the Learning Experience is covered by your insurance.

Good luck with your boat and I hope to meet you when you're back in the area.


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## Capt.aaron

As I said earlier, I learned most things I know about navigation, rigging, diving, and engineering from women. Please don't feel intimidated by some of these dudes. I owned a night club in Isla Mujeres Mexico for a few years , and one night some race crew was in there. One of them was a nice young lady who said that the captain, her boy friend, had been yelling at her the whole race down from Tampa. I told her the dude yelling is the dude who isn't sure of him self or his knowledge. Like DR say's, who cares what these people you'll never meet anyway's thinks. I think your on a rightous path and you've got a good little boat worth fixing up, and belive me, it's not rocket science. Looking forward to following your progress. I've seen tons of women fix up boats and sail away on them.


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## pointyendfirst

thanks to all for the encouragement as I am currently in the stage where the to-do list is pages long, everything is interdependent, and some days i go to the boat, poke at things with a screwdriver, and then burst into tears.

Yes Capt aaron, I *will* fix her up and sail again. thanks! I feel a lot better. We now return you back to our regular programming.

But if y'all have ever toyed with the idea of going on a safari in TZ, you are welcome to come stay for a few extra days and help me fix me boat I mean go sailing!


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## Capt.aaron

COOL, Africa scares me. I'm not an expert on much, but I was a rigger for many years so I can answere some of those questions if you have any. I think of fiberglass work like paper machette' form grade school. And anything electrical I've either thrown away or I hire an electrician, that's what they are for. The hardest part of any project is starting it, you'll do fine.


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## pointyendfirst

i like that approach to fiberglass, makes it seem less daunting. about to start on that.

electricians, yeah, i hired one, but he was a Masai. Masai warriors are great if you need to defend your cows from lions. For wiring in your fans or running lights, not so much.

I may take you up on your offer to answer a rigging question or two- will PM with photos. Once I stop blubbering, here in the cockpit. (kidding, it's nighttime and i am home...)


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## wingNwing

DRFerron said:


> Pointy -
> 
> (although you sound like someone I'd love to have a cool drink with)


Yes. Virtual girls night out, until we all maybe get together at SSCA.


----------



## PCP

pointyendfirst said:


> i have been a member for several years but almost exclusively lurk, partially because i am timid about asking for help and partially because i am afraid of being beat down or jumped on if I say anything. I find it upsetting how quickly people jump all over posters for saying things that i don't think are really meant to be offensive, and the convo kinda degenerates. Ouch, now i am hiding under the keyboard in case i get shelled for that.


My Lady, this is not the kind of forum where people are rude and even if that can be sometimes the case, after your post I bet that if somebody tries that you will have many that will be ready to fight for you&#8230;.I know, I know a very macho thing but that "chivalry" thing can have its advantages.



pointyendfirst said:


> &#8230;I had been looking to the hersailnet as a possible place where i could talk with fellow female sailors, especially any who like me are relatively underconfident in their technical skills. I am in the process of a fairly major refit of my boat and for someone who previously regarded changing a lightbulb as a challenge, this is scary stuff. Especially as I am doing it in east africa where there is a real shortage of skilled people who you could hire as teachers or consultants. My club here is heavily british and south african, so being a yank female skipper makes me feel pretty isolated.
> I would love to hear from other women who have taught themselves to work on their boats e.g. rewiring, re-doing standing rigging, etc. and how they did it! My husband is an absolute darling but isn't interested in sailing in the least, and isn't handy, so i am starting from scratch here.....
> any words of wisdom from women out there who taught themselves to fix their boats or at least learned and did it on their own? any courses you could recommend? I am a decent sailor, but am looking at doing some of the ASA or RYA courses especially navigation to further my skills, but i don't see much in terms of courses for repair/maintenance.
> .....


Why other women? Why on her sailnet? 
Sailing is sailing and refitting a boat is just that. No difference between men and women&#8230;and probably you are going to find more help if you start your own threads under the appropriated forum and leave "her sailnet" for girl's talk.

Regarding sailing courses you have plenty in South Africa:

Two Oceans Maritime Academy | Ocean Sailing | RYA | Sailing Cape Town | Sailing South Africa | Sailing Training | Yachtmaster | Ocean Skipper | Competent Crew
Sail Due South | excellence in sail training
Home | Atlantic Yachting and Sailing School - RYA Courses, SAS Sailing Courses on Cape West Coast of South Africa

Regarding maintenance&#8230;well I have to say that probably I am not much better (if not worse) than you, but I have learned that the only way to improve is doing it&#8230;slowly and with the help of someone that knows more than you and that should not be difficult, at least it is not for me.

You can find help here and probably on the place you are working on your boat. The guys and girls that do the maintenance on their boats are always ready to give an helping hand to someone that is trying but has not the knowledge to do it.

Please post at will and welcome to the forum, I mean, as a poster&#8230;and soon, I hope, as a contributor with new threads.

Regards

Paulo


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## Capt Len

Ladies, ladies, running aground, bumping into stuff and wondering how to fix the XXX, are hardly gender oriented activities. As sailor of the male type I can assure you it's way more common than we admit. Edit ..What PCP said.


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## wingNwing

Ah, if we lived in a perfect world! Dan had surgery two weeks ago (not related to the cancer 6 years ago, just normal aging, he's fine, just got a major thumbs-up from the doctor earlier today) He wasn't allowed to carry anything heavier than a jug of milk. Anyone who thinks sailing is gender-neutral should have seen the downright hostile looks we got walking back to the boat when I was wheeling the dock cart or carrying the groceries and he was empty-handed. Wow.

Mostly I agree with Paulo and Len, most things sailing are not gender specific. But ... some approaches to problems are. Some tools, for example, require more hand or upper body strength than I have. If the instructions/instructors don't account for that, I'm not going to be able to do the job. If they understand the limitations, I can modify the approach or use other tools to compensate for the lack of strength. And some vendors don't seem to believe we can do math or understand engineering concepts.


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## Donna_F

PCP said:


> ...
> Why other women? Why on her sailnet?
> Sailing is sailing and refitting a boat is just that. No difference between men and women&#8230;and probably you are going to find more help if you start your own threads under the appropriated forum and leave "her sailnet" for girl's talk.
> 
> ...
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


The reality is that some women feel more comfortable talking to other women until they reach a certain level of confidence where they feel they can carry their own weight in a situation. Perhaps they never get over it.

When I first started sailing I watched and listened to other women sailors in my clubs who were singlehanding and got up the nerve to dock our boat myself. Sure, the guys did it all the time, but it took another woman's encouragement for me to take the plunge. If all of them could do it, why can't I? It was empowering. Probably not a mental process a man could sympathize with.

I think that it's nice to be able to offer a "safe haven" so to speak so those who do feel like posting here can do so without feeling they will be mocked or humiliated. If I'm not mistaken, I think that was the original intent of herSailnet.

Besides, the men still post here anyway.  So if there's something here that men can offer a useful response to, go ahead. It won't be wasted.


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## PCP

wingNwing said:


> ...
> Mostly I agree with Paulo and Len, most things sailing are not gender specific. But ... some approaches to problems are. Some tools, for example, require more hand or upper body strength than I have. If the instructions/instructors don't account for that, I'm not going to be able to do the job. If they understand the limitations, I can modify the approach or use other tools to compensate for the lack of strength. And some vendors don't seem to believe we can do math or understand engineering concepts.


Hi Wing,

let me remind you that some of the best sailors around are women and I mean racing offshore solo racers. Most of them are quite light and are not body builders, but regular fit girls: You have Jeanne, Sam and Ellen, all light, apparentely fragile and all capable of beaten most men in long offshore races, including non stop circumnavigation.

Today's equipment is easier and easier to use and require less force, not to mention all hydraulic and electrical helps. Many sailors are old and the boat builders make boats that they can sail easily and I am not only referring to heavy boats, fast boats too are easy to sail.

One of the boats I saw when I was looking for my new boat was a 2008 Salona 42, a very fast boat. The boat was a bit unclean and the seller explained that the boat was sailed by a 83 year's old sailor and his also old wife. The boat was for sell because the guy had bought a brand new Grand Soleil 43 (also a very fast boat). It seems that his biggest problem for them is not sailing the boat, but cleaning it

Regards

Paulo


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## smackdaddy

DRFerron said:


> Besides, the men still post here anyway.  So if there's something here that men can offer a useful response to, go ahead. It won't be wasted.


You're probably referring to my valuable insights in the "Sailing Braless" thread.


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## SimonV

smackdaddy said:


> You're probably referring to my valuable insights in the "Sailing Braless" thread.


I liked that thread.


----------



## pointyendfirst

I agree with PCP about the tasks being gender-neutral- e.g. I look under maintenance for info on re-seating chain plates or whatever- but what i find female-specific is the emotions that accompany re-fit tasks. Many woman haven't had as much of a background of messing about with cars, or wiring, or woodworking (remember when girls did home ec and boys did shop?) that give you a basis for taking on some of the work of owning and maintaining a boat.

Donna totally gets it: even though running aground etc is gender-neutral, the responses aren't always, and the encouragement isn't always. So I wanna be able to whine to other women about how I am having a hard time learning what is an amp and what is a volt before i start on re-wiring, whereas da boyz are often starting with a set of skills and knowledge that I ain't got. Of course, I suck at the "pink" tasks too- my boat is infamous for having the worst crew rations evah (usually bad quiche in sandwich bags, to be squeezed into the mouth when hunger strikes.)

and of course share the misery of sailing bra-less in choppy seas....

Thanks to all for making SailNet what it is, and hersailnet what it is!


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## wingNwing

PCP said:


> Hi Wing,
> 
> let me remind you that some of the best sailors around are women and I mean racing offshore solo racers. Most of them are quite light and are not body builders, but regular fit girls: You have Jeanne, Sam and Ellen, all light, apparentely fragile and all capable of beaten most men in long offshore races, including non stop circumnavigation.
> 
> Today's equipment is easier and easier to use and require less force, not to mention all hydraulic and electrical helps. Many sailors are old and the boat builders make boats that they can sail easily and I am not only referring to heavy boats, fast boats too are easy to sail.
> 
> One of the boats I saw when I was looking for my new boat was a 2008 Salona 42, a very fast boat. The boat was a bit unclean and the seller explained that the boat was sailed by a 83 year's old sailor and his also old wife. The boat was for sell because the guy had bought a brand new Grand Soleil 43 (also a very fast boat). It seems that his biggest problem for them is not sailing the boat, but cleaning it
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Agreed, but these women and boats are the elite. Our neighbor is a single woman in her mid-60s who sails an older Hans Christian 40, big heavy boat. She has solved the strength problem by using a cordless drill as an electric winch grinder.

I was thinking more about maintenance than sailing: My little fingers can get into tight places to connect wires, for example. Possibly better than a big guy. At the same time, if it's a frozen seacock in a tight space, I may be able to get to it, but once there lack the strength in my hands to wrestle it open. That's where perhaps women and men could use different strategies to solve the problem.

Pointy, if you're on Facebook there's a group called "Women Who Sail" PM me for details.

About the training: can do you online courses, such as SSCA webinars? For navigation, how long are you going to be in the US? Coast Guard has some awesome courses for very little cost.


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## Melrna

Hope to meet you at the SSCA gam with the rest of us women sailors. Doing a safari is #1 on my bucket list. One day, dreaming.


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## pointyendfirst

Love the idea of using a cordless drill to winch- I am mid-fifties and somewhat arthritic so anything that spares the thumbs, knees and elbows is great! I am 5'10" so don't have dainty hands..

Internet fairly slow here, can't really watch videos unless i spend a lot of time buffering, but a friend (one of the only other women sailors here) did an RYA Nav course on line which I am considering. Hadn't thought of the USCG one, sounds good since ASA etc are pretty pricey. Will PM for info on the facebook group!

thanks again-


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## pointyendfirst

Melissa Renee, I am going to look into my FF ticket back to the states for the SSCA gam/ABS, I really look forward to meeting all these great sailing women! Am trying to get my cousin to sail up for it from Deltaville (with me...) as he is a relatively new sailor and think he would really benefit as will I.

Hope to spend some time after the gam/ABS maybe helping someone deliver a boat somewhere or take a course. Any ideas are welcome!


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## Melrna

When you get here I have two lady's that are ASA instructors that can help you with any courses you need. Let me know. 
Melissa


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## JulieMor

I really don't see gender unless some exudes the stereotype. I'm guessing most here wouldn't call me the silent type. I don't think about it. If I have something to say, I say it, although as diplomatically as possible. Gotta keep the peace!


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## dsullyec1

Adding to this thread...I took my first sailboat cruise two Sundays ago and am hooked. It was also a blast having a very young woman capn (capn Adele) to take us out. She said she was the youngest female to become a captain. (Or something like that). I literally felt like my granddaughter was steering the boat. Made me proud to see a young woman be that good at something like this, and to be doing what she loves.

I loved being topside, and actually did ok below deck. Was leary about that..thought I'd start puking my insides out. But nope. Did ok. Hubby and I are looking at used boats since we really can't afford a new one...and it's definitely a learning experience for us. We're researching many name brand sailboats and so much to learn. Many boats to look at! I think I could be good at this sailing thing if I put my mind and body to it. How long did it take you other ladies to learn to sail?


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## wingNwing

Sully - to learn? A couple of weeks with a good teacher. To master? Um, its been 15 years and I still am finding new things ...

Love it!

That's not meant to be disheartening. It's very straightforward to get the basics so you can get out on the water. The subtleties will keep you entertained and challenged and inspired and growing; never gets old.


----------



## dacap06

junkrig said:


> Harder to fry up fish in, too


Different tools for different tasks. Use a cast iron skillet to cook the product of fishing. Use an e-cast iron skillet to to cook phishing.

Tom


----------



## Minnewaska

Is the OP still around, or did Denise wander away unannounced? I posted a refrigeration question, in another thread of course, a few days ago that I swore she would have replied to.


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## zeehag

so op doesnt think women post on this forum???? hhmmmmmm
wonder why she thunk that thought.


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## Donna_F

dsullyec1 said:


> ...I think I could be good at this sailing thing if I put my mind and body to it. How long did it take you other ladies to learn to sail?


What WingNWing said.

The beauty of sailing is that there is ALWAYS something more to learn if you keep yourself open to it. It has not become boring. Beyond actually operating the boat you may find an interest in weather, navigation, electronics, rebuilding heads...

Good luck and welcome to the club.


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## zeehag

btw--learned to sail --age 7 yrs. we sailed with our uncle until after high school, when we moved thousands of miles away---i came back for another year of it, so did my other sibs--something about st louis after hudson river--just aint,,errr, wasnt happening--lol---went back into it with a vengeance and found that even tho i hadnt sailed many yrs, i was in better form than some ladies i knew with small boats--so we sailed a lot to catalina and day sails, didnt take long at all, actually.
learned the hard stuff(boom) age 7. ye never forget that one...the rest was easy. but i learned on gaff rigging--we didnt have a lot of fancy bs on the boat. we didnt race. one is NEVER done learning to sail..each time out is different ...no 2 sailing adventures are same...


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## tdw

Minnewaska said:


> Is the OP still around, or did Denise wander away unannounced? I posted a refrigeration question, in another thread of course, a few days ago that I swore she would have replied to.


Minne ... Denise was here yesterday but has not posted for approx three weeks.


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## JulieMor

DRFerron said:


> What WingNWing said.
> 
> The beauty of sailing is that there is ALWAYS something more to learn if you keep yourself open to it.


When you're green you're growin'. When you're not, you rot.


----------



## zeehag

some male members seem to think the ladies here know nothing and will begin a bash then twist the deal so it looks like th e female has faux pas'd--can be a large put off, as the males doing this are desk jocks and nonsailors , game players and trolls who love playing word twist...not fun to deal with.. prolly a lot of spare testosterone they know not how to handle......is why i only stop by on occasion.....just sayin...


----------



## PBzeer

More like insecurity than testosterone Zee.

Thing is, as cliched as it sounds, the only thing between you and what you want to do, is yourself. You may not be able to be the champion, but that doesn't mean you can't do what you can do.


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## JulieMor

zeehag said:


> some male members seem to think the ladies here know nothing and will begin a bash then twist the deal so it looks like th e female has faux pas'd--can be a large put off, as the males doing this are desk jocks and nonsailors , game players and trolls who love playing word twist...not fun to deal with.. prolly a lot of spare testosterone they know not how to handle.....


After working with the macho boys for almost four decades, there's nothing they can say that I haven't heard before. The guys here are tame compared to what I'm used to.

A sense of humor disarms most instigators.


----------



## zeehag

i have worked with macho guys and such--i was and still am oldest of 4 kids labelled horrid children by momma, with pride, -- i know how to deal with em--i am tired of having to do so--but i can usually hold my own for looong time before the guys resort to name calling, as their tiny brains cannot handle intelligence in females.


and , then, humor works, also.....


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## Capt Len

zeehag Sorry to hear that you hang around with poorly endowed males, intellectually or otherwise. I realize that sometimes it's pretty slim pickens and one has to lower ones standards.May I offer you my solution to this universal problem ? Wine ! It just makes others more interesting regardless of gender , lumped together or singly.


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## JulieMor

zeehag said:


> and , then, humor works, also.....


I worked in construction for almost four decades. I was often a foreman (woman).  My first time was really tough. But I learned quickly. In time I realized never to take to heart anything the guys said. They are constantly jabbing one another and laughing while they do it. Take them seriously and they pounce like a lion. You have to be able to take it as well as give it. When I did, I gained their respect.

I knew I arrived when I was at the union hall one day looking for work. There was a big guy there who had once worked for me. No one messed with him. When it was his turn to pick a job he said, "I'm waiting to see what job Julie is going to run. I want to work for her again." That was "WOW!" moment for me.


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## zeehag

wine only makes ye a wino. 
i have reynauds disease--i do not drink. there are many things i do not do because of this stupid underlying condition. is all good-i have more fun than any 2 normal souls.

i read the " mission statement" of this hersailnet--we are supposed to be speaking of nail polish, hair nets, girlee stuff---sad to say, much of that crap i do not have on my boat as it befouls the pumps .... i do have nice shampoos and conditioners and i do wear my hair very long--is easier this way.....

but i do not usually talk about this kind of stuff. not all girlees are frilly , fussy prissies.
so--i willnot speak of nail polish or hair conditioners or wtf most girlees talk about. same with many ladies who sail. some are frilly fancy girlees, but no tmany. i have yet to encounter my second frilly gir out here--this is not an environment conducive to propogating frilly girlee stuff. nails break. hair frizzes. get over it and sail..LOL
i more try to figger out what the new noise in the bilges is , what is causing the fuel line to clog-is it dirty fuel or is it air--those things that are not subject matter for a proper lady to get into. 
i do not use my presto pressure cooker in tropical areas. i do not cook in summer in tropix...

rodlmao--life is great! 

so, do you think this bottom paint goes well with my interior????


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## leliu5th

Well since Atts n Latts shutdown I came back here only to see not much going on, and since I have moved from the mainland to Hawaii I have been enjoying myself so I really have not made time to get on the board here...Aloha to all and mahalo

Lori


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## zeehag

there are a few ladies who post here almost reliably...mebbe semi reliably....
as far as that other forum--i didnt like the trolls they kept as pets.....


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## leliu5th

Aloha Zee, good to see your cruising around!


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## zeehag

having a great life...is way too nice to stay in...


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## dsullyec1

Where are you in HI? My cousin lives right outside of Hilo, on the big island...and my good friend lives on Kauai (sp?). Wherever you are, hope you're enjoying island life. I know it's quite different from living on a continent. We hope to sail there one of these days.  Take care, and Aloha.


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## leliu5th

Aloha friends, I am on Maui and living the life, just wish I could find crusising partners to help crew on their boat! Mahalo for your thoughts and prayers!

Lori


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## sailor wench

I haven't been on in a while but have posted on threads when I felt I had something valuable to add. I posted at length on one thread where someone was asking about the best way to go about moving aboard and maintaining the lifestyle....finances, logistics, etc., etc. and have given advice to "newbies" who are interested in sailing or who have purshased a boat and are learning to sail and have questions I feel I can answer intelligently. However, when I did post and gave my opinions, I did have a few men post after me, some in agreement with what I had said (and were friendly). However, there were two men who posted after me who did not agree with what I has said and were rather rude, to be quite honest. I think those two men may have felt threatened by a female who actually knows a thing or two about sailing/living aboard because of how they responded. Maybe I'm wrong but they could've disagreed with me without being flat out rude...we're all adults here. The posts from those two did, in fact, discourage me from posting anything further and is why I haven't been back on the site until now. I figured I would at least give the site another chance before I gave up on it because, as a live aboard, it's nice to be able to talk to others that are avid sailors or who live aboard themselves, to swap stories, ask/offer advice, etc. So, now that you've brought up the issue of women being silent, maybe I'll start making some noise again and see how it goes!


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## leliu5th

Right on sailor wench, screw those stupid men, they are so insecure and I really could care less about what they have to say or whine about! I go my own way alone without the BS they put forth! Sick of it already, I want to sail and have fun I am a good and kind person willing n able, but no drama in my Queendom!

Leliu

Aloha


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## smackdaddy

Here's the way I see it...

If you have an opinion...throw it out, then fight for it. It counts as much as anyone else's (male or female).

On the other hand...

If you simply _must_ have polite agreement with those opinions or you get bent...well, we're sailors (male or female).

Ya know...


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## sawingknots

i've found sailnet is better in small doses......hi smack good to see you here


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## dsullyec1

Sheesh! What a pain to have to experience that. You'd think that on a site like this, people would be less likely to be rude and negative...but I guess not. Too bad. Who needs that??
I wouldn't blame you for not participating anymore if that's the kind of feedback you get. Personally, being a woman, I love learning from women who've experienced what I'm getting ready to do. I understand women's perspectives easier than I do men's, usually. Not always, but usually. It's very nice to know there are women out there who have knowlegde in this area, and know how to share it. I hope you'll come back again. I'm new at this, never have even been on a sailboat until about 2 1/2 months ago. Am living on a 1983, S2-C11 sailboat. It's a racer, so isn't as broad as I would have preferred...but it's cozy. We're docked in Kemah, Texas, and now have to wait until the hurricane season is over before we go cruising. Too many things to fix on the boat before we take off. 

How long have you been sailing? Do you live on a boat? Where? Where have you travelled? 
Thanks for your post. I hope the men who do come on here will be polite, and interactive.


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## zeehag

dsully---i took off before stuff got fixed and i find fixers on my way...
kemah?? had a friend with a s2 and a ericson who used to stay there--now is in louisiana..
i sailed out of louisiana for a near year, on a seidelmann 37--we just watched for anything gonna kill us--duckedinto places for hurrycames--ida passed over us, water up water down, wind over head..no big deal...we were in slidell then...
we waiting out pacific furycame season in golfo de mexico this year...for repairs. 
wasonmy way to panama--will continue on that route when repairs are finished--found a good repair guy...


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## dsullyec1

Hi Zee,

Nice to hear from you. You are such a brave woman. I am itching to get going, and so is my hubby, but the insurance company is making us take lessons before we go...an
expense that keeps putting us behind financially. (And a pain to have to wait around for). So, while we wait to get the ok from the insurance co., we're fixing things up on the boat. The v-berth hatch needs new adjusters, because the old ones are broken. We just ordered those. As it is, we're holding up the hatch with a box. (look a little bit like hillbillies). We want to clean the engine, change oil, filters, get new parts for it if needed, and need to get the Standing and Running rigging checked out, etc. Paul wants this all taken care of before we head out. 

Did you sail directly across the gulf? We're contemplating that...but may do coastal cruising down to Isla Mujeres. So many people are telling us the gulf is a tricky place to sail because of all the underwater currents going every which way. 

We know a couple here at the marina who have an S2...Dave and Debbie. Wonder if they're the ones you mentioned. They have a wind vane steering system on the back of their boat for rough seas. The last time they went across the gulf it was torrential...and miserable. They used the wind vane, but they were both sick as dogs from the wave action. She said she'd never go that way again. Yet another gulf story. 

I love your boat...she's a beauty. Would love to see more pics of her. Are you on your way to Panama? That's the route we want to go...want to end up in Bahia de Caraquez in Ecuador, then maybe go over to the Galapagos. 

Who is the good repair guy you found and where? We may need him when we finally get on our way.

Safe sailing and thanks for writing...

Diane


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## zeehag

gom was fun--norge washer with attitude..sucks for a sloop, except during calmer weather but we had to go out in lightning storms and mayhem..lol...the seas poop ye nice and wet, and the flying fishies slap yer face and the norge is only on rinse cycle, dangit...cant wait to have my ketch there..will be a gas.
louis sold his last year i think, and his slip was for sale also--he took his ericson to louisiana and is there now. 

i hold all my hatches up with a bit of wood. lol....

we didnt make it to mujeres but we did get to dry tortugas....awesome cool place. make sure your anchor is a bruce and that you have enough chain to keep it down. was difficult holding.

we harbor hopped--slidell to gom barrier islands--dont miss those--cool places and decent anchorages..icw -mississippi sound--alabama--mobile bay to icw and lulu's, and pensacola to gom to destin--way much current there for tidal flow but bridge is only 49 ft clearance--so you get to work with a realllly fast current.....we did many of the lil places to see in west fla--i loved apalachiacola and port st joe---my depth is way too deep for some of the stuff we did with a 4 1/2 ft keel....tampa bay and st petes and regatta pointe marina and stuff...ft myers beach, ueseppe island between with icw to ft myers beach..some awesome places....then ft myers beach to ft jefferson....some folks like to go to keys--i didnt want to go there....

if you need his help,i will let ye know--he is bashful, and i dont know where he wil end up--is a free spirit with attitude..lol goood boatwright, tho.


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## paradiselostparrot

Sailnet has the reputation of being hostile. I don't think women want the aggravation.


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## zeehag

smack em back a tad and they dont mess with ye too much...but they dont often listen, unless your stuff is better than theirs...or you sail farther than they do or you did something dumber than them and didnt die or some thing testosterone influenced like that.....

my repair guy is awesome-- does excellent work, and will work for cheap--i wont tell ye his name, but ye can get it from me when you need him...or he will find you....he is good at that.


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## dsullyec1

zeehag said:


> smack em back a tad and they dont mess with ye too much...but they dont often listen, unless your stuff is better than theirs...or you sail farther than they do or you did something dumber than them and didnt die or some thing testosterone influenced like that.....
> 
> my repair guy is awesome-- does excellent work, and will work for cheap--i wont tell ye his name, but ye can get it from me when you need him...or he will find you....he is good at that.


I like your tude! 

And I think that's fair..getting in touch with you first to let you know we need your repair guy. He sounds like a true find. Will contact you if we need him.


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## zeehag

will yoube in golfo de california--is where we will be spending about a year---i dont know as yet if he will go to puerto rico, but i know he will be prolly somewhere around santa rosalia or thereabouts, except in winter when he is in warmer waters.....the soul i sailed with inlouisiana is also good at repairs, and is in slidell....


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## dsullyec1

If we should make it out of here before the hurricanes start coming in, we'll go for the destination of Ecuador, and if we still want to continue, I'd like to go to Golfo de California. It's a different kind of beauty, and my grandpa used to go down there with his daughter and her hubby on vacations after my grandma died. He was in his 90's. They all lived in Vista, California, and had a Winnebago. He loved camping out and sitting on the beach there. I'd just love to see it and sail the Sea of Cortez. Would be great. I'm so ready to get going. Can hardly wait.


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## zeehag

we will be sailing north in a few --mebbe a week--to barra de navidad then mazatlan then golfo de california--i had forgotten about my ships papers---eeps--i can get them ok on the way, tho, so is all good...helps to be going back a tad the way i got here....


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## dsullyec1

Hey, Zee, I keep hearing "we" and from the sounds of it, you have a new partner aboard. Cool. I checked out Barra de Navidad on Google Earth since I'd never heard of it, and it looks like the marina is very ultra nice! Is it expensive to stay at that marina? The motel is huge and pretty amazing. For the rich folk.  I remember when you wrote your sailnet entries from Mazatlan earlier in the year. Now you're almost back there. I remember you saying you were (pleasantly) stuck there because of something you needed to fix on the boat. Wow, time flies. Then you're on to Golfo de CA. Are you going to go meet with the guy who was the previous owner of your boat? That would be pretty awesome to meet him. Lots of stories to share between you two. Have fun, and would love to know how these places fare as stopping points. You're quite the sailor, lady. I admire you for that! I'm not sure what I am yet...living on a boat does not make me a sailor, but at least I'm getting my seal legs. Now I'm having a problem on land...feel like I'm moving all the time. Haha. I'm an in-betweener now.


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## zeehag

no partner, just me n my gato--sometimes a friend helps, bu tno partner...have a slave boy who does mechanic work occasionally, and repairs boats well, but no partner...ialready met a previous owner--he was a jerk..lol..aggro drunk--said he had this boat 20 yrs when he only owned it 4 yrs and left it on a breakwall in santa barbara for someone else to salvage and refit poorly--he was an interesting guy....the fella i have mortgage with gets my ericson in june 2014, and i ant worried about nothing...i will spend some time with mazatlan friends --mebbe 2 weeks , dont know yet--then on into golfo de california for more repairs...
i dont know about the marina--i hear it is very pricey--i will be anchored in the lagoon. with the skeeters....lol


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## dsullyec1

Oh well, you know, those animals make darned good partners if you ask me. I had two dogs that were my best buds and they're both gone now...I miss them so much. My hubby's a good guy, and I'm happy with his most times. I still miss my dogs though. 

I can't believe that guy who used to own your boat was such a lier and a dirt bag for leaving his ship. Geez. Too bad. I bet it WAS interesting. But not THAT interesting. Suppose you were very happy to leave there. 

I asked Paul what type of anchors we have and he said a Danforth and a Plow. I don't know if these are all that great or not. From what he said, the Danforth isn't all that good in grasses. But we'll have the Plow to do that...and hopefully it'll work ok. 

Give Bubbadaboatcat a big squeeze for me.


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## zeehag

my primary is a bruce, original bruce, and my secondary is a original cqr. both are good. is a lil trickier to set the cqr--the bruce sets most dramatically...lol..i love it

danforth makes a great kedge anchor for getting off shoals and for lunch and for second anchor use.. i own a few anchors--danforth x 2, one for dinghy and one for boat, mushroom for dink, yachtsman/fisherman for coral or wtf, and my 2 on bow, cqr and bruce.
i use all chain rode for safety and security

guy who used to own boat was like the others---negligent--isall good--i own her now andis improving as she goes..love her..is a good boat.

bubba says meouw to ye--he is sulking due to lack of fancy feast in am...he is fat--is on a diet, and sulking.


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## dsullyec1

Wow, you do have a lot of anchors!! We'll probably acquire more as we go. Thanks for the description of what you use them for...that helps to know. Doesn't all chain rode weigh your boat down? What size boat is your solitary bird? Ours is a 36'. It's a racer (not because we race, but because I liked her and she was affordable.) She's not as broad due to her being a racer, but she's cozy. I like cozy. Wouldn't mind having a bit bigger boat though for extra storage...but, as you say, is all good. Work with what we've got. 

Poor Bubba! haha!! I know how it feels to diet...am doing that now and miss my tasty food, too. / He'll be a super happy cat when he gets more fancy feast. He'll be charging towards his fancy feast food and gobble it down in less than a minute! 

Off to the chiropractor this morning...Paul has a really bad back...has broken it twice, and we've found that boat work can be hard on the back. Does he stop when it starts to hurt? NOOOOO! So off we go to the chiropractor.


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## zeehag

my formosa is only 9 000 pounds lighter than spec--is spozed to be 34000 pounds. i dont mind weight on my boat--it takes over 1000 pounds to make any difference in the boat, so isnt like a huge deal. i like weight in my boats--smoother ride....as long as weight is distributed properly, is no big deal. 

heavy stern makes bow pound. weight on ends is hobbyhorsing. i get a lurching roll when tankage is empty. so i dont mind extra ballast

bubba is ignoring me

formosa 41--40.9 documented ft, per documentation, so is what i pay mexirent on. 28000 pounds displacement , empty...41x12.2x6'6"


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## dsullyec1

Nice big boat! Ours is 36x11.11x4'8" and Sea Casa weighs 15,000 (6K of that is in the keel). What is mexirent like per foot? Hopefully not too bad. 

Is Bubba wanting his fancy feast? That's why he's ignoring you, huh? Stinker! Cats are definitely tempermental and will tell you in some way or other that they're unhappy. 

We're thinking about putting more chain, but it's pricey and we may need to just go with the line and the chain is about 38'. Total of about 140'. We're also thinking of maybe picking up an third anchor, but maybe they're less expensive in other countries? Maybe not, too. I know anything imported is pricier than in the U.S. I can see what you mean about the extra ballast keeping the boat more steady and sailing smoother. Makes total sense to me. 

Hope you're having a calm evening. Where are you docked/moored/anchored right now? What's the weather like? It was so nice here in Kemah today. We had low 70 degrees, a bit of cool wind, and lovely sky. It's supposed to get chilly in the next couple of days, so time to put back on the long sleeves and jeans. I like it a little cool though. Love to snuggle into the blankets. Since we moved over here and on the boat at end of January, the weather has been mostly like spring. March had some strong winds, but not a lot of rain. 
I know when one sails, weather becomes very important. I've always watched the weather, mainly because I used to have a small landscaping business in Santa Fe, NM and had to be aware of weather conditions all the time. Enjoy maps, weather, stuff like that. 

Sleep well tonight.

Diane


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## zeehag

ok find a barrel end with over 200 ft of chain. buy it. it will b cheaper than buying from a new barrel...lol--is a trade secret,,,you do NOT want to cruise mexico with rope rode--you WILL lose boat. chafe happens fast with rocks, and so far, more than 3 boats broke loose in la cruz de huanacaxtle anchorage this year from chafed rope rode. do not use that.

if you stop in san diego, buy the chain in downwind marine--tell them i sent ye...tell chris frost hay from me. ask for the friends of downwind marine discount. it also works in sailing supply and san diego marine exchange. good folks. decent pricing.

if you do not have a windlass, you may find you do neeed one--manual is decent, but electric with remote rock.spoils ye stinkfaced....mine has n0 remote, but it will do..modifications in progress....buy used.
used anchors should be under 200 usd. you will need more than 200 ft rode total...i use 160 ft regularly due to sell and storms. wind and surf make drgging anchor a tune to sing daily in some places. more chain helps that to not happen. buy a genuine bruce anchor--get oversized--about 25 kg. approx 50 pounds. with the 5/16 chain you will be happy and sleep at night. that is important. remember we have tides and currents and winds. 

speaking of wind--whenye sail south down baja peninsula, there can be some chubasco activity north of cabo san lucas--fly reefed sails from cedros to cabo--especially at at night//--chubascos like early morning hours. we got hit at 0400 with 60 kts--was awesome!! this brick flew at 8.4kts boat speed..loved it..minor damage only--wood taff broke from strain of preventing mizzen to it--now i use hawse--if that breaks i am in biiiigger trouble than i want..lol

bubba will adapt, eventually..is a 7 yr old fat boy with heart and furrrrrzz--excellent gato.

we are still anchored in zihuatenejo bay=--will be headed to barra de navidad in less than a week, spozedly--is late in season for north movement, but we gonna do it. i willmostly be anchoed exceot during the hottst months, when i will rent a slip in somewhere in golfo de california...
rent is variable, in summer some places go to 22-36 cents per foot per day--is compounded daily. makes monthly rent between 370 and 900 usd monthly, depending on season and locale. i dont know baja...i try to remain out of slips as i need repairs done and i cannot afford both rent and repairs..all is seasonal  here. summer is low season, winter is high season. high season rates are absurdly high.

latitude 17 has perfect winter weather. absolutely perfect.


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## aeventyr60

Zee, you can anchor in san Carlos and get spares, work done etc...visa runs to the North easy from here also. Spent a summer in the Sea in 2000, WOW! great place!


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## zeehag

have fm3 already--will be second renewal in october. havent had to leave mexico for these renewals yet.

i dont leave my boat, and i have a repair slave...lol..awesome worker--my family lives in phoenix, so they can send stuff, but i need an address--also i need a soc chip for my garmin gps--i will have to have my brother send it to me in mazatlan i htink....with my document papers..lol unless those dont come back until i get to topo....love this life--plans only include documentation and mailing of packages..lol


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## dsullyec1

Hey there,

I wrote you a long post after I received your last message and for some reason, the inet just kicked me out. GRRR. Then we got real busy for several days. I see what you're saying about the chain. We've talked about it since you wrote to us about it. We're just not sure where to go to find a end chain barrel. We'll keep looking though. 

Do you sew things for your boat? Do you carry a sewing machine? It's been very interesting to me to see so many men become very good at sewing. Never see that with other kinds of professions/sports/whatever. Right now I'm sewing up some anti-bug screens to cover the hatches...it's for the summer when it gets hot here and we need all windows/hatches open. Learn as I go. Found the name of a woman who trains women to sail on her boat for free. Am trying to get in touch with her so I can be one of her crew. Need more experience, and it would be nice to be with and be trained by women. 

Went to the Galveston Art Walk the other night...some fine artists and some ok. It's a little like New Orleans there...on a very small scale. Just don't hear the jazz...more like rock n roll. 

I've never heard of compounding the price of the boat per day. That's really different. We pay a flat $380/mo here at the Waterford Harbor Marina, and we usually average about $15-25/mo electric fees. It's always been less than $500. (We usually eat at their restaurant several times a month and they put that on our tab, along with several other things.) Paul thought that $.22-.36 per ft per day. If they compound it, it wouldn't make me want to stay on long, though. 

We have talked with several others about the Bruce anchor and get the same feedback...it's one of the best anchors. I'm sure it all depends on what you're anchoring in. 
We'll be looking for one of those at the "Boat Resale" shop up the road. We have one windlass that is a push button from the cockpit. I like that...messed up my wrist about 10 years ago and it's never been strong since. 

I think we only have 140 ft of rode. About 35 ft of that is chain. 

Probably won't be stopping in San Diego...although I have friends and family around that area. I used to live there...in El Cajon, then in La Mesa, then up above hotel circle in the Friar's Village condo's when my mom owned a condo there. It's gotten too busy for me now. I was born in Santa Monica (moons ago! lol) and grew up in LA and Bakersfield. I really don't care to return anymore. Too crowded. I have lots of good memories from there though...and I'll never forget them. 

I know what you mean about not being able to afford both a slip and repairs. Both together can wipe out the old pocketbook. It makes sense to anchor sometimes to save money while fixing the boat. 

Is latitude 17 where you are located now? Or is that up in the Golfo?


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## zeehag

wherever chain is sold it is sold by the barrel.. received and sold inbarrels...when folks buy it, sometimes they dont want a whole barrel,, as that can be a lot of chain---so if you ask for the end of the barrel--and it has a buncha feet in it like i got at downwind marine---which is in san diego--near the police run municipal docks, then ye can arrange to buy some from down wind marine. that is the easy way.....

for mexico, bruce rocks --works best--make sure it is an original bruce. not a knock off. you will need about 200 ft of chain, or 250. 250 is safer. rope to chain chafes off and boat gets lost--lots of rocky bottom stuff here.

if i had a sewing machine i would make stuff for the boat, yes. i dont own one yet.


zihuatenejo is latitude 17. golfo de california is 28 or 29 or so...coldville, in winter.


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## sailor wench

After my post Diane had asked how long I had been sailing, where I am, etc. I'm currently in Annapolis, MD, having just returned from Ft. Myers (on the West Coast of Florida) via the Florida Keys (stopping @ Marathon and in Key Largo). I came up the East Coast, partially on the ICW and partially using the Gulf Stream to make some time coming North. I'm a "snow bird", traveling South in the Winter and North in the Summer. I've been a full time live aboard for going on 3 years plus now. Prior to that, I did some coastal cruising, mostly along the Outer Banks of N.C., for about a year or so. Before that, I sailed on a large lake close to where I'm from for about a year or so. So, all together, I've been sailing about 5 to 6 years. I decided to become a live aboard after spending time on the lake and sailing around the Outer banks. I would really enjoy meeting other live aboards in the Annapolis area. I'll be here until around early Sewptember when I'll begin my treck South again. I plan to go to the Bahamas this fall, jumping off from the Lake Worth area. Thanks to all of you that posted encouraging and positive remarks. They are greatly appreciated!

"A pessimist complains about the wind. An optomist hopes the wind will change. A leader adjusts the sails"


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## emcentar

On the original topic, I have noticed in other internet forums that when the gender balance tips too far in either direction, the tone of the board can suffer. It gets a little too gendered, and the minority gender starts to feel out of place and abandons ship. And it can be either gender. I used to belong to a great board where the gender balance tipped female. It sustained itself for a while, but men continued to appear and leave, while the women stayed around, and now it's almost all women. I don't think men feel too comfortable there.

The same is true of clubs. I used to belong to a great running club, with approximately equal members of men and women. Then I joined the same club in a different city. "Thank god, a girl!" they said, "We've been looking for more women." Then they introduced me to the only other girl who had showed up for the run - also her first day - and we ran together alone as they took off. When I showed up the next week, there were no women, and no one ran with me. Almost 10 years later, they still have no women in that club and I'm not surprised..

I have to say though, Sailnet is clearly a great resource and I've gotten wonderful advice here. But it's the only board where I feel the need to be closeted about my gender in most of my posts. One does get the sense - rightly or wrongly - around here that women aren't taken very seriously.


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