# Living Space



## Indevolatile (Nov 3, 2006)

So here's a fun kind of experiment I just did with a selection of boats for sale in the New England area. In looking to see how much living space various boats offered, I looked up their diagrams on sailboatdata.com. Then I came up with an inch to foot scale for each model by comparing the LOA with the size of the diagram. Finally, I measured the actual "living space" from the cabin entry to the forward bulkhead and multiplied it by the beam to see how much each one offered. Here's some of the numbers I came up with:

Alberg 30: 62 sq. ft.
C&C Corvette: 69 sq. ft.
Pearson Coaster: 85 sq. ft.
Douglas 31: 94 sq. ft. 
Catalina 30: 101 sq. ft. 
Tartan 34: 102 sq. ft.
Dufour Arpege: 106 sq. ft.
Luders 33: 107 sq. ft. 
Bayfield 29: 110 sq. ft. 

The Dufour Arpege and Bayfield 29 are kind of outliers for their LOA due to the fact that the V-berth is omitted in favor of a longer salon area. Likewise, the size of the cockpit in something like the Tartan 34 is going to have a pretty significant impact. 

How much storage space each of these offer is another matter entirely, but I thought it was interesting enough to share.


----------



## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

You've probably got the most important statistics there for cruisibg/living aboard.

Interior volume and cockpit space are so essential.

For a few months 69 sq ft may seem fine.... But compared to 110 sq ft? Wow. One is a marriage saver.

Thanks for grinding the numbers.

Can you do a Beneteau 393 compared to a Corbin 39?


----------



## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

'Interior volume and cockpit space are so essential."
I would say interior volume VERSUS cockpit space, since boats are often designed for entertaining (large cockpit) or racing (large open cockpit) and that costs dearly on the cabin space and stowage space a liveaboard might prefer.


----------



## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

If you are a camper type person...you adapt..no big.
If you arent...or she isnt....let her choose...


----------



## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

hellosailor said:


> 'Interior volume and cockpit space are so essential."
> I would say interior volume VERSUS cockpit space, since boats are often designed for entertaining (large cockpit) or racing (large open cockpit) and that costs dearly on the cabin space and stowage space a liveaboard might prefer.


Yeah, you may right. 
I was thinking more of the old design narrow beam boats that are double enders. Owners say they are Sea-kindly with nice lines.... I say they are small inside and out.

There's another 39 footer built on the US west coast... Old style. Has a great 'name'...


----------



## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Interesting project. 

My wife and I are in the process of shopping for a temporary boat for a 1 year leave of absence we are scheduled to start in about 7 weeks. I love my camp cruiser, but she is not convinced about spending months in a tent, so we are doing some of the same studies, trying to figure out the maximum size for the minimum weight so we can trailer the boat around Eastern US and Canada behind my van. The lack of ballast on our current boat is somewhat concerning for some of the places we want to go too.

We havent done mathematical calculations like you have, we are more going by feel. To me it seems the single biggest impact on living space is beam. Hull depth/freeboard is important too.

We have identified 2 18 footers with 8 foot beams that have significantly more liviing space than our current 21 footer with a 6.25 ft beam. We are going to look at basically a free San Juan 21 on the week end with a 7ft beam. I am curious to see how it stacks up against the beamier 18s.

I might use your idea to compare feeling to the actual metrics.


----------



## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

RegisteredUser said:


> If you are a camper type person...you adapt..no big.
> If you arent...or she isnt....let her choose...


"Camping" on a full time live aboard boat is not a pleasant way to cruise! If a boat is to be one's "home" then shouldn't it be a comfortable place to live, at sea or at anchor, not some place to just come back to, to eat and sleep? Most of the 'pocket' cruisers we see spend very little time aboard in the anchorages. I have no idea what they do ashore all day, every day, but that appears to be the trend on the little boats, even for the younger guys.


----------



## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

capta said:


> "Camping" on a full time live aboard boat is not a pleasant way to cruise! If a boat is to be one's "home" then shouldn't it be a comfortable place to live, at sea or at anchor, not some place to just come back to, to eat and sleep? Most of the 'pocket' cruisers we see spend very little time aboard in the anchorages. I have no idea what they do ashore all day, every day, but that appears to be the trend on the little boats, even for the younger guys.


Possibly...
what is interesting to them is on shore and/or underwater...
Comfortable is subjective.


----------



## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Can you do my Rafiki-37? It is a beautiful double-ender, narrow beam, very sea-kindly, lovely lines 

I've always thought we (my happy spouse and I) live in about 100 sq. ft of space. But maybe it's even less.


----------



## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Yes,very interesting project.

I used a slightly different methodolgy. I measured in scale the distance from the back of the cabin trunk to the waterline, multplied by beam and multiplied by a standard co efficient of 0.55.

I compared 9 common trailer sailors from the 60's-mid 80's under 1700 lbs. Boats we're 17-22 feet with about 20 being average.

The smallest by far was the siren 17, followed by my Bay Hen. At the upper end of the scale(and weight) was the MacGregor Venture 22. As I suspected, the 18 footer with the 8' beam (Edel 540) scored really well with only 2 sq ft less space then the Venture 22.

The San Juan 21 ran middle of the fleet, actually slightly bigger than the MacGregor 21.

The boat I like the most didn't screen very well on this test, the lifting Keel Sandpiper (18') with only 2 sq ft more than the Bay Hen. However, this test didn't account for the significant bunk space under the cockpit which would be great bunks for small kids. 

Who knows, might just use our current boat if we can't find the right boat at the right price.


----------



## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

One of the primary reasons I purchase my Morgan 33 Out Island was both interior and cockpit space - it has lots of both! 

Good luck,

Gary


----------



## Indevolatile (Nov 3, 2006)

I'm glad you guys get a kick out of my idle musings. Keep in mind these are very rough estimates based on online diagrams and published numbers that may not always be entirely accurate. I do think it's close enough (probably +/- 5 or so) to compare living space on similarly sized boats. I'm not sure how relevant it is when you start talking about boats big enough to have 6' headroom in the cabins, though. 

Beneteau 393 - 165 sq. ft.
Corbin 39 - 206 sq. ft. 
Rafiki 37 - 146 sq. ft.

That Corbin is ridiculous! It has a bigger living room than a lot of houses I've been in! ;-)


----------



## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

I guess "living space" as you are defining it is important, but it doesn't take into consideration the sleeping space in the bow and stern. For cruising, a comfortable sleeping area with space to move around and get dressed, etc. is just as important as the space in the main salon. And so is good storage so you don't have stuff laying all over the place that you have to constantly move. It's was surprising to me when I was looking at boats in the 32-35 foot range a few years ago how many newer ones had terrible storage and a cramped vee berth in an attempt to increase the main salon space. This made the boat show well at the dock to new sailors, but limited their practicality when actually cruising.


----------



## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Have had two non transom boats- a PSC34 and a Tatyana 37. Space was a very significant issue with both. Engine service on the PSC34 was a PIA as you took off a panel in the cockpit to get access. So think this is really a very complicated issue. The T37 was better but you still always needed to move something to get to something. 
Have also had experience helping out or crewing on a variety of production boats with liners. Although some were quite large the emphasis would seem to be on large open floor plans and 3 or 4 staterooms. No place for tools, spares nor supplies. Lots of empty air. Great for a floating cat house but lousy for cruising. 
Point being not all space is useable space. I’d rather be on a little 28’ BCC than any of the boats mentioned in the OP. All the space is useable. Boat was designed by Hess who actually sailed. Perry seems to have been the maestro in understanding ergonomics for a cruiser. Even his T37 or his V42 make best use of the available space with accessible storage sleepable berths, usable galleys. Suspect even he would say it’s easier to do this in a transom boat.


----------



## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

Arcb said:


> Yes,very interesting project.
> 
> I used a slightly different methodolgy. I measured in scale the distance from the back of the cabin trunk to the waterline, multplied by beam and multiplied by a standard co efficient of 0.55.
> 
> ...


You've probably already figured out that a full cockpit cover that you can move around under while at anchor will double your useable space, but you may have to have one made (not a boom tent!) for your new acquisition. An outside, weathertight area is a must have so you can stow stuff there to clear the bunks for sleeping at night. You will fill that cabin with stuff if you are going to be on the boat for more than a week.

Also, the third dimension is important for a volume calculation-rough as that measure is-and also important to figure head room. A small, trailerable boat won't have standing headroom, but you will appreciate sitting head room, for sure.

Finally, ballast and form stability are important if you intend to do coastal cruising in a small boat. We did weekend cruising between Mystic and Block Island and Shelter Island for over a dozen years. We dealt with ocean conditions and were quite secure in our 18' x 8' catboat (2500# displacement, 500# ballast) in winds up to 20 kts. We could handle 30, but it wasn't much fun, and we wouldn't head out if we knew those conditions were in the offing. The downside was low headroom and no dodger or cockpit cover, so rainy days meant you would rather be elsewhere. The other downside would be the weight of boat, trailer and gear, depending on your tow vehicle. Also, things can get awkward if you don't have a tabernacle (or comparable) arrangement for self-rigging at a launch ramp.

Another consideration if this is a temporary situation, is resale value. You may find that you will pay more for a "cult" boat (like a catboat), but that the value is retained better for resale when you are done with your adventure.


----------



## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

JimsCAL said:


> I guess "living space" as you are defining it is important, but it doesn't take into consideration the sleeping space in the bow and stern. For cruising, a comfortable sleeping area with space to move around and get dressed, etc. is just as important as the space in the main salon. And so is good storage so you don't have stuff laying all over the place that you have to constantly move. It's was surprising to me when I was looking at boats in the 32-35 foot range a few years ago how many newer ones had terrible storage and a cramped vee berth in an attempt to increase the main salon space. This made the boat show well at the dock to new sailors, but limited their practicality when actually cruising.


This is a fun little exercise, so thanks Indevolatile. But I think Jim's comments here are more important in understanding what makes a liveable cruising boat. It's the whole package of open living space, working space (galley, dinette, berths, chart table, etc.) and storage space (big/deep storage and immediate usable storage), which makes for a good long-term cruising boat.

I'd add tankage to that as well &#8230; and we haven't even got into the working deck space; that's a whole other group of factors, some of which are influenced by the choices made down below.


----------



## john61ct (Jan 23, 2017)

Arcb said:


> We have identified 2 18 footers with 8 foot beams that have significantly more liviing space than our current 21 footer with a 6.25 ft beam.


You may find interesting info here http://www.sailnet.com/forums/cruis...ble-blue-water-boat-exist.html#/topics/303266

Even though it seems you're looking at actually trailering a lot more than my use case, thus wise to keep to the smaller sizes.

I know purist sailors hate these "floating RVs", but MacGregor 26M or 26X is a very practical and commonly available boat for your sort of use case.


----------



## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

This is an interesting topic that could fill volumes. 3+ decades of coastal sailing, mostly with a family of four, I have a rough idea of how much 'support space' each person needs. We have an old boat without much 'living space'.

This wouldn't work as a liv-aboard, there is too little 'living space'.

But we don't, we sail in season, long weekends with a few weeks away. A month would be tops with our family of 4 on our boat.

As an example of 'support space per personn', take our small galley. I estimate that about 4,000 delicious plates have come out of that galley in nearly 20 seasons. How can that be?










Mostly, that's due to one person who is very good at cooking in a small galley - that was often underway - with 2 to 4 kids to feed + 2 adults.










Wouldn't a bigger galley have helped?

No! It's what you don't see, that makes this small galley work:

There are cavernous lockers built into the galley, which takes up the entire beam of the boat. There are ample spaces and lockers to secure all the cooking and serving implements. You can't see this stuff.

There have been countless times that I drove a small pick up truck, the bed loaded with provisions and gear, to the dock to transfer to the boat. 2 or 3 weeks with a family of four - especially one that lives to eat(!) - requires a huge amount of provisions. Each time, all this stuff disappears into and around this small galley. There's an icebox that we stuff with food and beverages, and still pack in as much as 80 pounds of block ice(done it, many, many times).










Support space to me, makes a moving sailboat work. If you have to cram every locker up tight, and stuff overflow into berths, I think too much volume was given to 'living space'.


----------



## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Great photos, Tom!


----------



## travis.taylor (Oct 2, 2017)

I live aboard my San Juan 23 with my Irish setter. Before the 23, I lived on an SJ24. Been living on these small boats for about 4 years now and when people ask me how I tell them this..

The key to living on a small boat is that you do NOT live on your small boat. You sleep on your small boat...

I dated a girl for 5 months or so recently and ended up spending quite a few nights at her place and it really put things into perspective. Nights spent at her place where typically spent inside watching movies and whatnot which was very very nice, don't get me wrong, but it soon became a little stifling. I'd become used to staying busy right up until bed, for example, working on the boat, in the shop, going to the gym, taking the pup to the park for awhile, etc..
When I realized just how little I was doing when staying over at the GF's place, it kinda made me resent being there. Not her fault, I've just learned to enjoy staying busy outside is all..

I'd go insane if I actually LIVED in my boat ....

Travis


----------



## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

We have a 44’ cutter we live on most of the time and a 33’ cutter we have lived on for some months. Obviously the 44 has more room and the aft cabin is a blessing. Yet we did surprisingly well on 33. My Wife annoyed me into removing the lovely table in the middle of the saloon. That made moving about much easier. The 33 has a silly amount of storage. And it has two pilot berths. These get used for storage most of the time. They contribute a “cluttered” look but are very efficient storage. Also the settees are pulled a bit toward the centerline, a bit narrow between the benches. It it makes the pilot berths work, and we have massive storage under the berths. We end up eating from plates on our laps but that’s a small price to pay. 

The other night I was killing time looking at some designers boats. I was enthused with a 44’ schooner until I looked at the layout. It had far less space than our 44 and the two cabins didn’t communicate. You had to go outside to move between cabins, a walk over not a walk through. 

Lots and lots to think about here.


----------



## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

fallard said:


> You've probably already figured out that a full cockpit cover that you can move around under while at anchor will double your useable space, but you may have to have one made (not a boom tent!) for your new acquisition. An outside, weathertight area is a must have so you can stow stuff there to clear the bunks for sleeping at night. You will fill that cabin with stuff if you are going to be on the boat for more than a week.


Absolutely. My current cat rigged Sharpie has not just a full cockpit cover, but a proper camper top with roll down screen windows. Its this feature alone that makes our boat a viable option for longer trips. However, the cabin of this boat is so tiny that really only 1 adult and one child can sleep in it, which puts the remainder sleeping in the cockpit under the camper top, which is becoming more challenging as our crew gets bigger and our trips get longer. I am not really sure, even with the camper top the boat remains viable as a family cruiser for us. This boat does have a tabernacle.

Love those beamy 18ish cat boats you refer to, if I could find one big enough for 4 under 1700 lbs for the right price I would likely consider it. Although most of what I have seen exceed the tow limit on my vehicle.

Another unique space feature I have for my planned trips (our year will be broken up into multiple trailer sailing trips, not one continuous trip) is the Van itself. We have 64 cubic feet of storage space behind the second row of seating. The way we plan to move is, rather than sail between destinations- we will launch the boat at interesting destinations, cruise the area for a week or two or more, then move on to the next via van and trailer. This allows for both storage in the Van and it also enables us to avoid the nastier coastal passages. There will be tent camping as well. Currently on our list is: Savannah Georgia, Florida Keys, Everglades, Bras Dor Lake Nova Scotia, 1000 Islands, Rideau Canal and Western Lake Ontario (Toronto and Niagara Region).



john61ct said:


> You may find interesting info here http://www.sailnet.com/forums/cruis...ble-blue-water-boat-exist.html#/topics/303266
> 
> I know purist sailors hate these "floating RVs", but MacGregor 26M or 26X is a very practical and commonly available boat for your sort of use case.


Yes, I have a couple of the smaller Macs on my list of maybes. Going to see how this San Juan looks this week end. It looks like a really nice boat for trailering. Not just light weight (1250 lbs), but I like the height and the way it sits on the trailer. Seems like it has everything. V-Berth for kids, pilot berths for adults. A porta Potti (that you don't need to fold up the V-Berth to get at), A sink, a counter for our stove. Plus a cockpit to cover. I feel like 26 feet might be more than we need and could make trailering through the Appalachians and big cities more stress than I want.


----------



## john61ct (Jan 23, 2017)

No those two specific models are the ones, not others. 

Get a solid TV and a good trailer with brakes, and take things slow, don't set a rigid schedule to stick to, you'll be fine. 

Will act as an RV on land.


----------



## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

travis.taylor said:


> The key to living on a small boat is that you do NOT live on your small boat. You sleep on your small boat...
> I'd go insane if I actually LIVED in my boat ....
> Travis


My point exactly. 
I'm guessing you are dock bound? Most of the 'pocket cruisers' we encounter are definitely ocean sailors, 99% are single guys and 90% are under 35, and when in an anchorage they spend much less time aboard their boats than those with comfortable boats.


----------



## travis.taylor (Oct 2, 2017)

Not sure exactly what your point is, to honest..

I can tell you that even if I had a much larger and more comfortable vessel it would still drive me crazy to spend too much time aboard. I'd say the exact same thing about an apartment or a house even.. Who the hell wants to sit on board when there is more interesting things to go see and do?? I didn't realize that there was some sort of "who spends the most time aboard" competition...

My itty-bitty vessel fits my lifestyle/financial needs. To each their own...


----------



## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

travis.taylor said:


> I can tell you that even if I had a much larger and more comfortable vessel it would still drive me crazy to spend too much time aboard. I'd say the exact same thing about an apartment or a house even.. Who the hell wants to sit on board when there is more interesting things to go see and do??


People have various lifestyles. I thik I am a bit like you that I want to get off and go see stuff. Sitting on my boat by myself can be a bit insular.

however, theres lots of cruising folks who for their own reasons (financial, relationship, relaxation after 40 years of work) that wish to do things in another way.

The people I have met cruising have one thing in common thats very similar to business owners: no one can tell them what to do. Everyone individual is an individual. Getting a group of skippers together at a time and place to do a combined activity is 'like herding cats'. The only reason why sailing races start on time is the starter boat used to have a cannon!

If I had worked full-on stress for 40 years and finally got a nice 42 foot cat with a huge outdoor patio and a rum still downstairs and the love of my life upstairs, and the boat was achored off some sandy white beach with azure clear waters you would need a shoe horn to pry me off the boat.

Similarly, if the finances are not real flash but the boat is in a free anchorage near a great tourism city I could quite stay on board for 5 days doing 'nothing' to save up for 2 days in town visiting an expensive museum, show or splurging on one beer in a nice bar.

Everyone is different. Its unfortunate that they try to shove their lifestyle down your throat. All us who are out "there" have won. Theres just many different types of winning


----------



## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Ive done it both ways. After I split with my first wife I moved onto a Grampian 30. Great boat for a single guy in a marina, but the galley sucked and no shower. I had no tv, just a stereo. Spent all my time outside. At the pub, paddling, longboarding, at the beach, working. It was great.

Then i met my current wife and we bought a very nice (in my opinion), 35 ft taiwanese boat. The boat had al reasonable amenities. We actually closed off the forward cabin in the winter to make heating easier. It was a nice boat to spend time aboard, especially in the cold months. Satelite tv, PS4.

Now that we dont live aboard and just cruise for fun, we dont find we need very much boat at all. The smaller the boat, the more of them we can fit in the drive way


----------



## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

Some of the living space numbers just seem too low. I’m not on a huge boat,but sitting here in the salon I get a mental measurement of just it as being 144 sf


----------



## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Agree with Mark everyone is different and there’s no right way. But would note many cruisers flip back and forth. Might spend a week or a month never leaving the boat. Nice breakfast, snorkel or dive, late light lunch while reading and lazing with the wife, cook an involved dinner and eat while watching the sun goes down. Kill that bottle of wine and retire to bed for fun and games. Wake up and repeat. 
Then a few days or weeks of aggressive sailing. Or a few weeks of island hopping getting in the dinghy every day at a new island to do the tourist thing. Or get in your head to do maintenance. Spend a week or two changing every fluid and filter, do all the stainless, change all the zincs, do the bottom.
That’s the appeal. Every day can be the same or every day different. Go with the flow.


----------



## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

How you live on your boat has less to do with the boat itself, and far more to do with who you are as a person. 

Some people need to be ‘moving’ and ‘doing’ all the time. Some think they’re wasting a day if they spend it reading a book, or just staring into the great beyond. Some folk can’t sit still for more than 15 minutes without getting jittery — they are compelled to always be ‘doing something!’ 

And then there are others who are so slothful that they could become a stain on the teak if necessity didn’t force them (us ) to do something.

Sometimes I sit in the same anchorage for weeks without even putting together the dingy. Occasionally I get the (crazy) urge to explore the surrounds, or do some voluntary maintenance. And sometimes I’m forced into action because we’re sinking faster than normal 

No single right answers here. Live the life that keeps you happy and feeds your soul.


----------



## Jacob12103 (Jun 17, 2010)

hpeer said:


> The other night I was killing time looking at some designers boats. I was enthused with a 44' schooner until I looked at the layout. It had far less space than our 44 and the two cabins didn't communicate. You had to go outside to move between cabins, a walk over not a walk through.
> 
> Lots and lots to think about here.


Not to get off track, but was this Michael Kasten's Redpath?

I feel the same way. It seems like a lot of living space is sacrificed to the full-beam engine room roughly midships, but I think it would be possible to build the schooner with a walk through. There is an aluminum Redpath named Tesha whose owners chronicled her build in photos, and it looks like they altered the layout to have a pass-through from the aft cabin to the saloon, as well as a separate forward cabin.

I really like Michael's schooners and I might ask him to draw one for me if I ever make any money.


----------



## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

YES! Redpath. 

Good on you.


----------



## john61ct (Jan 23, 2017)

Related thread

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/sailb...-beam-cruisers-w-headroom.html#/topics/320714


----------



## vpo3 (Aug 22, 2006)

I like to measure small living spaces in cubic feet.


----------

