# Philosophical used boat buying question



## sasjzl (Jul 28, 2012)

Hi all hope you are doing well, 

I am in the midst of buying a used sailboat circa 1982 Cape Dory 30 and just about to receive the surveyors report. My 'philosophical' question is how much of the financial outlay that will be necessary to make the boat safe to sail should the seller be expected to be responsible for. And to give a specific example, the surveyor flunked the rigging after finding cracks in the swages (sp?). So the sailing part of the survey was suspended. There were I think 3 swages (sp?) that were cracked. Enough that the surveyor did not want to have the responsibility of the mast crashing down on a boat that none of the 3 of us owned. What percentage of the rigging should the seller be financially responsible for in this transaction? My initial thought is to split the cost of re-rigging with the seller using the logic that he could make the boat safe by simply replacing all that is involved with the 3 pieces that are faulty. Another approach could be that he needs to pay for the entire re-rigging because common practice is for the entire rigging to be replaced as a whole at one time. For example you do not replace 3 spokes on a bicycle wheel....I think? That is just the first analogy that came to mind. In this case you would expect the seller to pay for the entire re-rigging. 

I am just curious if any of you out there who have been buying and selling sailboats for many years could give me any insight as to how you have dealt with this kind of situation as sellers and buyers. I want to be as fair as possible in what is turning out to be a more complicated transaction than it first appeared to me. 

Thanks very much,

Jim


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

I assume you've made an offer based on the state of the boat as expressed by the owner and your best assessment of it's current condition. If this assessment *did not *include the need for a re-rigging (and this is indeed what the survey found), then I would simply renegotiate the sale price based on this new, unexpected, finding of the survey.

Now, whether the current owner wants to meet you 1/2 way on this price reduction, or any other permutation, is open to negotiation. But also be prepared to walk away from the deal. If you open it up, the current owner is also relieved of obligations under the previous agreement. He/she may not choose to accept your new terms.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

1982.... Where is, As is.

I wouldn't give 1 cent discount. Your survey report is for you, not the seller. 

But that's just me


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

I guess I should add that if this rigging is original to the boat, then you certainly SHOULD have included the cost of re-rigging in your assessment and offer.


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## sasjzl (Jul 28, 2012)

That is the funny or interesting thing about buying a boat. You make an financial offer based most often on a picture and description found on the internet. Then you find out 
the boat needs X, Y and Z to even begin to be what you pictured in your mind when you first saw the boat. Reality comes down hard when you get the surveyors report. Then the real work begins. What do you need the seller to do versus what you can accept doing. Tricky business. 

Another thing I find interesting is when the seller wants to wash his hands of a boat so much that they do little to nothing to make the boat more attractive to the buyer. I am looking at a boat that has food in it left over from who knows when. It's 'poop tank' is almost full, also from who knows when. A half an hour spent cleaning the most obvious of places in the boat would have made a huge difference in its first impression moments. It is like selling a car with the kids McDonalds food left in it. I don't get it. 

The surveyor, who makes his living watching these boats change owners explained it to me as the seller just wants to let go and has moved on to his next boat, either literally of figuratively, long before he/she has sold their current boat. 

My seller spent a few thousand dollars adding various brand new electronic doo-dads 
on to the boat but did not bother to pay the installer to actually get them working. For example the brand spanking new autopilot is not getting power during the survey we did the other day. We were downloading the software for the electronic wonders that had been installed but not actuated during the survey. 

The seller has already brought another boat, a trawler though not a sailboat. Sailing was apparently not for him. This transaction is all happening through a broker. A broker who has his work cut out for him. I guess I should be happy that all these signs of carelessness on the part of the seller are in my favor when it comes to the final negotiations....then again...I have already come across sailboat sellers who think of their boats as investments that accumulate buy never depreciate. For example the owner who spent $25k on a boat a couple of years ago, then spent $5k more so in his head the boat is now worth $30k or more notwithstanding he did not get a decent survey done when he brought the boat and paid $7k more than the boat was worth. I hope to keep you all updated as to how this transaction, or lack of transaction, plays out in the days ahead. 

I have fastened my seatbelt in preparation for a bumpy ride not unlike Betty Davis 
in "All About Eve". :clobber


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## sasjzl (Jul 28, 2012)

Sorry.....that should be "Bette Davis"


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## capttb (Dec 13, 2003)

> You make an financial offer based most often on a picture and description found on the internet


No you don't, I've never made an offer without a thorough personal inspection and if the boat is supposed to be "ready to sail" I expect everything should be "ready to sail". If you are rooting thru the bargain bin it's "as is, where is."


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

It's really your call. You can ask for whatever you like and the seller can agree to whatever they like. Otherwise, dead deal.

Personally, I'm fine with asking for anything that was not as advertised, or obvious when making my offer. However, for example, you should not ask for a scratched boat to be repainted, as you already knew it was scratched, when you made your offer. 

The cracked swages are an interesting issue. Were they disclosed? If so, the seller isn't likely to fix them now. If they weren't disclosed, it will be hard for the seller to suggest you should have noticed them prior to the offer, when they can't prove they noticed them. 

It's all about willing buyer and willing seller. No one answer.


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## paulinnanaimo (Dec 3, 2016)

If the seller is going to help out with the costs of all the necessary repairs he will probably end up having to give you the boat free. You decide what the boat is worth to you in it's present condition and make an offer.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

I've made several offers on boats without a personal inspection. It isn't reasonable to always visit the boat first, and a trip to see a boat that the owner will not budge from an unreasonable price is just a waste of money.

A good boat hunting strategy is to find a boat you like in the comfort of your home, contact owner and/or broker and get a lot of detailed information about the boat and its equipment. Ask direct and pointed questions that require detailed answers. Maybe a couple of pictures that aren't on the listing that you need to see. If things are good so far, then determine what a reasonable offer will be for you. Make the offer contingent on a personal inspection, sea-trial, and survey. Make sure the contract allows you to pull out without penalty on the personal inspection. Go through the negotiation process with the owner/broker, and if all come to agreement, then sign a contract to freeze the boat, and set up a visit. Have a surveyor ready (and tell him/her what you are doing), but get to the boat several days ahead of survey for the inspection. If things don't inspect as expected, then cancel the survey.

Otherwise, unless the boat is in your local area, you will be spending a lot of time and money looking at boats without ever knowing if the owner will accept a price in your ballpark, and then needing to do the time and money trip stuff again to close the deal.

Mark


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Rerigging a Cape Dory 30 can't be too much money, and it is an easy DIY job in terms of measuring and ordering.

Mark


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## sasjzl (Jul 28, 2012)

Herein lies the issue I am awkwardly trying to address, as illustrated by Pauls comment:

"If the seller is going to help out with the costs of all the necessary repairs he will probably end up having to give you the boat free."

I think that this is the case in many instances where the boat is over a certain age. Bottom line is that the buyer has to decide what boat is worth his first upfront 'down payment' on what will be a continuing financial commitment. To expect the seller to make the boat as good as it possibly could be would have him paying you to take it away.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

I think you’re overly complicating the transaction here sasjzl. You make an offer based on your assessment of the value of the boat. This is done with direct input from the seller AND your own personal analysis (which usually includes a personal survey). The offer is usually made contingent on a satisfactory professional survey and sea trial.

So, after the offer has been accepted, the buyer usually commissions a professional impartial surveyor to provide additional information about the boat. IF the survey turns up unexpected or surprising facts about the boat — especially ones in contradiction to information provided by the seller — the buyer is justified in reopening the original offer. If the survey simply confirms the stated or expected reality of the boat, then the deal usually proceeds as-agreed.

As I understand your deal, you’ve got a 37 year old boat that needs its standing rigging replaced. If the rigging is original then this should come as no surprise, and should have been incorporated into the original offer. I suppose if the seller explicitly stated the rigging was in good shape, and your surveyor later found this not to be the case, THEN you have grounds to renegotiate the price. Otherwise, you may have made a mistake which you may have to own.


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## sasjzl (Jul 28, 2012)

I am with Minnewaska on this:
"The cracked swages are an interesting issue. Were they disclosed? If so, the seller isn't likely to fix them now. If they weren't disclosed, it will be hard for the seller to suggest you should have noticed them prior to the offer, when they can't prove they noticed them."

I do not think it reasonable that the buyer should think that any part of the boat not explicitly stated as in working condition is not.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

sasjzl said:


> I am with Minnewaska on this:
> "The cracked swages are an interesting issue. Were they disclosed? If so, the seller isn't likely to fix them now. If they weren't disclosed, it will be hard for the seller to suggest you should have noticed them prior to the offer, when they can't prove they noticed them."
> 
> I do not think it reasonable that the buyer should think that any part of the boat not explicitly stated as in working condition is not.


What affirmation did you get from the seller? If it is as explicit as above, then it's a no-brainer. If the seller stated the standing rigging was in good, working shape (which I suspect is more likely), then you still have a good reason to go back. If the seller said nothing specific, and you asked nothing specific, then you may have made a mistake. It all depends on what was affirmed, and if it gets dicey, what you can _prove_ was affirmed using documentation.

As I say, if you open up negotiations again based on the results of the survey, then you have to be prepared to walk away from the deal. But usually a reasonable seller will accept a reasonable counter-offer.


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

YMMV. And all other appropriate disclaimers because it's hard to understand the exact situation....and full disclosure boat 2 was a CD28. I like them.

That said, I think it works this way. 5 boats purchased over too many years.

Unless otherwise disclosed, the boat should be able to be safely operated as a boat or sailboat in this case. That doesn't mean things aren't on the verge of wearing out, that means they aren't already broken and unusable. Your offer price assumed this unless previously discussed or disclosed.

The seller is responsible IMHO for making the boat "a boat" that can be used as a boat, at least long enough to get a few miles on it. But the seller is not responsible for making the boat newer than it is, less worn out than it is, etc. It's an old boat and that fact should be evident to the buyer pre-survey, and should be reflected in your agreed upon price.

So in this case, the "philosophical approach" I would humbly recommend is as follows. The seller is responsible for the broken rigging parts. The seller should fix them at their cost or compensate you to do the same. If you want to go beyond this (which I would recommend given the age, etc.), and replace all the standing rigging, that's up to you and the complete replacement is a cost you pay. 

Good luck. I like CD's, hope it works out for you.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

In my opinion, a boat has two values. One is what the owner thinks what it's worth, emotional baggage and all.
The other; what the buyer is willing to pay without any emotion involved at all. Don't pay one red cent to renew the rigging unless you feel that is your responsibility as buyer. If the add said, "ready to go sailing," then he misrepresented the boat and must make it "ready to go sailing," or take a pretty hefty chunk off the price.
If the add said, "as is where is" then you should expect to pay a lot more than the purchase price in the long run.
A boat is an inanimate object until she is actually yours and if you let the tiniest emotion creep into the deal, you will likely pay a lot more for the boat.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

capta said:


> In my opinion, a boat has two values. One is what the owner thinks what it's worth, emotional baggage and all.
> The other; what the buyer is willing to pay without any emotion involved at all. Don't pay one red cent to renew the rigging unless you feel that is your responsibility as buyer. If the add said, "ready to go sailing," then he misrepresented the boat and must make it "ready to go sailing," or take a pretty hefty chunk off the price.
> If the add said, "as is where is" then you should expect to pay a lot more than the purchase price in the long run.
> A boat is an inanimate object until she is actually yours and if you let the tiniest emotion creep into the deal, you will likely pay a lot more for the boat.


Exactly. As I say, it depends on what as stated or affirmed in the transaction. If the seller stated the rigging was in good shape, or sail-away shape, or some version thereof, then the OP has every right to come back and renegotiate the original offer. But if the seller made no such affirmation, or indeed indicated the boat was "as is" or "needs work" or specifically said the rigging was old and needed replacement, then the OP should have included this in their original offer.

But as I say, you need to be willing to walk away from the deal if you cannot reach an acceptable new agreement. Realize too, the seller has the same right once negations have been re-opened. Most people are honest and reasonable, and will accept a fair compromise.

Note, as is usual for these kinds of threads, we rarely get all the information. To really know what the "right" answer is, we'd need to see the full information exchanged between seller and buyer. All we're doing is speculating based on limited information from one party in the deal.


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## BillMoran (Oct 1, 2016)

On a practical level:

You would be within reason to request a cost reduction to cover the difference between how the boat was represented in adverts and other material announcing it for sale, and what was found in the survey.

The tricky part of that is figuring out what was implied in the sale adverts. If the adverts said nothing about the rigging, then I would assume the seller is implicitly claiming the rigging is in good repair. If the advert said anything like "original rigging" or anything that might have clued you in that the rigging was getting old ... well, then it gets a less clear.

Another way to look at it: you're totally within reason to request price reductions to cover the difference between what you thought you were getting and what the surveyor discovered that you're actually getting.

As others have pointed out: the seller doesn't have to concede to any of this. If he/she thinks the price is reasonable even with the rigging needing replaced ... well ...

The best advice I can give you: It doesn't matter what's reasonable or what the seller wants. What you need to do now is take the total cost you're willing to spend on this boat, subtract the money that you know you'll have to spend on repairs, and come up with what you're willing to pay. That's your starting point, if the seller doesn't like it and you can't reach an understanding -- move on to the next boat.

I walked away from 2 boats after paying for a survey that convinced me I didn't want to buy them. It's expensive, time-consuming, and frustrating. It's also a good learning experience and I'm happy with the boat I did end up purchasing so I recommend always being willing to walk away -- no matter how much time+money you've spent up to this point.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

The bottom line is, both the buyer and seller and can do whatever they like, within the bounds of their written agreement. The standard agreement requires the seller to sell their boat, as is, for the disclosed price. It allows the buyer to survey it and change their mind, by an acceptance date. If they change their mind, they can refuse to accept the vessel or make a new offer. 

What may be the right thing to do or what will work is situation specific and people specific.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Its a 37 year old boat!!!!!!

What do you expect?? Brand new? Then get your wallet out and buy brand new!

The USA has some desperatly weird conventions when it comes to boat buying that the rest of the world just does not have.

When I was buying this boat I flew from Australia to the USA and rented a car for a few weeks and drove from Charleston to Key West with CASH in my POCKET. yet I was unable to make a deal!

I flew to the Caribbean and made a great deal within 3 days and I am still on that boat 13 years later.

I'm sorry, but a 37 year old 30 footer has an opportunity value of zero. Buy it if you want it, move on if you don't.

Anything sitting in water for 37 years is shot. End of life. Had it. Finished. Kaput. Buy it to enjoy now. its not getting any better sitting in the cellar 



Mark


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

This is absolutely not a USA thing. Two buddies have negotiated the purchase of their boats in Europe. Same exact deal. 

99% of buyers expect a seaworthy boat, for their offer, unless a flaw is previously disclosed or obvious. That's a long way from being new.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

I think people are really over-thinking the rigging issue. My personal opinion is that unless the seller stated the boat was "as is", and excepted a price that reflected a good deal for the buyer, then the seller should compensate for the cost of the broken swage fittings. My guess is the seller was unaware of them.

But in the scheme of things, this hardly matters. At most, it is a hundred dollars for those. An entire rerigging of a CD30 should be under $1,000. A boat this size has what - 1/4" wire? Maybe 3/16? That stuff is $1/ft, so maybe $300 in wire? The swage fittings are $10-15, so another $100 in fittings. A rigger will swage them for $10/ea, so another $100 in rigger costs. That's only $500 - hardly worth walking away from a boat one otherwise wants just because a deal covering this small issue can't be negotiated.

On the other hand, if I was the seller, I'd just shrug and hand the buyer a 100 bucks and call it good.

If I was the buyer, I'd just shrug and take the boat as is.

Mark


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Its a 37 year old boat!!!!!!
> 
> What do you expect?? Brand new? Then get your wallet out and buy brand new!
> 
> ...


Well yes and no... a well maintained boat has value... and can be used for cruising and so forth. I bought my boat new in 1985... that makes the boat 34 years old. I pumped a lot of boat bucks in to get her up to spec for living aboard and ocean passages. By now most things have been replace or upgraded... hatches, ports, stanchions, sails, standing and running rigging... instruments, 12v system, upholstery and on and on. The bones of the original Contest 36 are there and they are strong good bones... but she's been in a constant state of renewal... and more to come.... so called boat projects. And if you don't enjoy or are prepared to take them on... you shouldn't own a boat. For many boat owners... messing about on / with their boat is part of the joy (and PITA) of owning a boat which is exposed to the elements 24/7/365. And this sort of "work" personalizes the boat to you, the present owner. For sure another owner would do things differently.

Buy a boat with a reputable pedigree and a good survey and get busy!


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

for those of you who own a boat more than 20 years old... imagine you sell it... what would you expect the new owner to do in repairs, maintenance and upgrades?

I'll start

new electronics - present ones work perfectly but most are old technology and aged past their predicted service life
new running rigging
replace life lines
piston rings???
new sails
new sail cover wheel and binnacle cover
compound and wax hull
varnish teak
replace/repaid teak run strake
new anchor chain
next gen anchor
standing rigging inspection and replace as mandated


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

I "expect" that everything that is listed is in "serviceable" condition. So for example, it should be obvious to the buyer that the electronics are 15 years old, but it may not be obvious that the VHF doesn't transmit. It should be obvious to the buyer that the condition of the teak is dirty, raised grain, etc., but it may not be obvious that the teak toe rail is leaking into the cabin. It should be obvious to the buyer that the boat is listed with a small danforth anchor, that maybe inadequate for in your application; however, that is what is listed so that's what you expect to get. It is likely not obvious to the buyer that the fresh water pump has failed, the head doesn't pump, etc., but those items are listed so they are expected to be "serviceable."

Serviceable is different than what you want. That's OK, all this should be reflected in the agreed upon price pre-survey.

Then, you do the survey. You learn the hull is wet, the fresh water system doesn't work, the head doesn't pump, the chart plotter doesn't get a GPS lock, etc. Stuff you discover when the surveyor tests things.

So the expectation is that everything listed is "serviceable." Some things maybe so old I don't want them such as electronics. I reflect all this in the negotiated price. 

Then, the survey reveals what doesn't work, what's broken. The survey is about that, the unexpected condition of what should be "serviceable" items that are broken. 

IMHO, if you work with these assumptions in the purchasing process, you're more likely to get to a deal.

So I have no expectations about an old or new boat. Have bought both. Each one is different. Each owner and builder is different. But surveys IMHO are about the difference between "serviceable" and "broken." Negotiated pre-survey price is about the buyer and seller agreeing on a price before the surveyor does their thing. After the survey, it's about what the surveyor discovers that's broken.


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## PhilCarlson (Dec 14, 2013)

The fair market value of the boat is only what someone is willing to pay.

If your offer was based on misrepresented information; re-negotiate or walk away.

If the seller stated "as is" or disclosed the conditions you don't like; buy it and make the repairs, or attempt to re-negotiate, or just walk away. 

The boat is not an investment, nor is it an asset.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

The other bit that feels a fraction audacious is to expect someone to do up their boat when they want to get rid of it.

I am just doing some upgrades to my boat - its gunna be a bit expensive. But I am doing them because I am _not_ selling the boat.

If I was selling the boat I would not throw money into it. 
Further, a new owner probably would want to put their new kit on it. If I was upgrading to sell I would have the cheapest crap put on, cheap new swages, etc etc........... but if I was buying it I want to pay the $1 more for the good stuff... or the electronics I know and like etc etc 
I was just up the shop and there a bit of kit I need... they have one for EU250 (US$280) and one for EU650 (USD$730). Guess which I am buying? Which would you buy if you were selling your boat? Guess which one is going to be better?

Mark


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## paulinnanaimo (Dec 3, 2016)

All true Mark but there is a difference between adding a $730.00 electronic item and pumping out the holding tank.


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

Reminder...the OP's question was this:

"My 'philosophical' question is how much of the financial outlay that will be necessary to make the boat safe to sail should the seller be expected to be responsible for."

Not what the fair value is, not what the expectations on an old boat are,......

Just this.

So for what it's worth, I'd stick with my position. Safe to sail? The assumption is that it is ready to sail unless otherwise disclosed. That everything is "serviceable" which means you could sail it, it may not be pretty but you could without an immediate risk of the rig dropping on your head. Pretty clear at least some of the standing rigging is not given a surveyor was unwilling to put up the sails. 

Full of great up to date stuff? Perfect varnished teak? A new rig? New laminated sails? Waxed and buffed? UP to date electronics? Burden's on the buyer and all this....should be part of the pre-survey price negotiation.


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## PhilCarlson (Dec 14, 2013)

I don't think it's too much to expect that the seller has taken out the trash and pumped the holding tank. These are basic housekeeping chores and if the boat is not in use, they stay done.

Also in an indicator of the sellers attitude towards upkeep. Flashy cosmetic add-ons so you won't look too closely into the dumpster. A good argument to walk away.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Not a lot of disagreement, although everyone seems to have a slightly different nuanced perspective. One piece of information that we are lacking is: What claim was made regarding the standing rigging? What information was the OP (and buyer) told?

#1. If they were specifically told the rigging was all in fine shape - or some version of this - then the OP certainly has grounds to renegotiation the contract. If the questionable rigging is confined to three swages then it's a pretty cheap fix and small price difference. Personally, as a buyer I'd ignore that. BUT if the concern is the entire standing rigging, then I might want to lower my offer. Again though, once the contract is canceled by the buyer, then both sides begin negotiating again. There is no requirement for the seller to agree to new terms (although most reasonable people will make a new deal in this case).

#2. If the OP (and buyer) was told the rigging was something less than 'all good', then it becomes less clear whether the buyer can go back and renegotiate. If they were told the rigging is original, or needs some work, or some version of that theme, then that should clearly have been understood as meaning the rigging is questionable. This should have been incorporated into the original offer.

#3. If absolutely nothing was specifically stated about the rigging, then I suppose one can go either way. BUT, I think it would be a major due diligence failure on the part of the buyer not to have specifically asked about the rigging. After all, the standing rigging, and indeed the entire rig, is a major system on any sailboat. It would be like not asking about the hull, deck, or engine. These should all be top-of-list questions to the seller/broker. I would never proceed with any boat purchase on the _assumption_ that all these systems are in acceptable shape.

BTW Mr Mark  speaking from the salon of my 42-year-old boat I can guarantee you she is not "shot." She certainly has real value on the market. People still buy and sell old boats. And I contend that proportionally more of these 'good old boats' will continue to ply the ocean waters long after most of the younger mass-produced boats have gone off to their fibreglass graveyard.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Three bad swages means that at least 2, and likely 3, of the stays/shrouds need to be replaced wholesale - wire and fittings on both ends. There isn't any real way of replacing a single swage fitting itself. So about half the rigging needs replacement outright.

Again, this should not be expensive on a CD30, and should not be a stuck negotiation point for either part in a purchase.

Mark


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Boiling down what is said above, I don't think that this is particularly a 'philosophical thing' but a contractual situation. The purchase contract between the OP and the seller should be the starting point. What does it say? 

If it says "where is as is", then the only choice after survey is to either buy the boat with the discovered condition, or void the contract based on the survey. Once the contract is voided, you can go back and try to negotiate a new contract that addresses the conditions discovered during the survey. 

If the contract states that the boat is in a condition where it can be safely operated or references the listing and the listing says something like that, then you have a leg to stand on to try to get an owner to pay some of the repair costs. Absent either of those you are in the same position as 'where is-as is' in which your only options are either buy the boat with the discovered conditions, or void the contract based on the survey. Once the contract is voided, you can go back and try to negotiate a new contract that addresses the conditions discovered during the survey. 

But here is how I try to avoid the situation that you appear to be in. When I write a contract for purchase or am advising someone who is writing a contract for purchase, there are a number of things that need to be in the contract before it goes to the seller. 

1) Contingencies: I spell out what the contingencies are. The contingencies typically would be subject to being able to obtain financing, and insurance, and successful survey that shows that the boat is in the anticipated condition, and sea trial results that demonstrates the successful operation of sails and sailing equipment, engine, instruments, water cooled equipment, and other items listed in listing) and what happens in the case that any of the contingencies. I stipulate that the surveyor will be SAMS certified (or MAMS if I cannot find a SAMS who can do the job) 
2) I make the listing and any supplemental correspondence a part of the contract. 
3) I include a list of equipment that conveys with the boat based on the listing for the boat, the assertions by the seller and brokers and my own reasonable expectations (i.e. things like legally required safety gear) 
4) I list 'Buyer acknowledged defects', which are the defects that I describe as being items that I have personally observed and therefore have baked into the price of the boat. This generally includes the phase "Buyer acknowledged defects include normal wear and tear that does not impact structural or operational components beyond those specifically listed in the Buyer acknowledged defects". 
5) I require that along with ratification of the contract that the seller include a list of defects known to the seller that this list will also become a part of the contract.
6) I spell out whether the boat is being sold, 'where is, as is' and how that impacts the buyer's options with regards to the survey and sea trial results and termination of the agreement. OR I spell out that the agreement to purchase is predicated on the boat and the equipment in the equipment list being fully operational except as listed in the Buyer acknowledged defects and the Sellers disclosure list. 
7) I spell out what happens in the event that defects are found that are not contained within the Buyer acknowledged defects and the Sellers disclosure list and which are not readily apparent to a casual observer. Typically this might say something like the seller is obligated to pay half the cost of correcting the problem up to 15% of the agreed upon sales price of the boat." That percentage will typically vary getting larger the older and smaller the boat. The method of pricing the cost to correct the defects should be defined. I have typically defined the method in terms of an estimate from a mutually agreed upon boat yard, or a specific chandlery. 
8) The agreement should spell out whether the repairs are performed before or after closing, whether the Seller's share is simply deducted from the sale price of the boat or is held in escrow and only paid after corrections are made. 
9) If for some reason there are items which cannot be tested (for example air conditioning systems in winter) then the agreement might include a requirement that a specific amount be held in escrow until these systems can be tested and determined to be operational. 
10) the agreement should include deadlines for (sometimes for naming a surveyor), going to survey, acceptance of the contingencies, termination of the contract, deadlines to close on the deal, and provide deadlines to begin remedial repairs if that is part of the agreement. 

Obviously, not all of that applies on every deal, and obviously there are sellers who will look at these items and try to negotiate something different, and sellers who will decide that anyone writing a contract like that is probably not worth dealing with and not agree to sell you the boat. But at least with those items out on the table, both sides know what to expect once the agreement has been reached.

Jeff


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

I agree Jeff. This is not really a philosophical discussion, it’s more a question of contract law.

BTW, I love your contract outline. It seems more extensive and explicit than the one I wrote for my past purchases. Maybe you should develop a blank template that SNers can use. It would go a long way to avoiding most of the problems that people present here.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

paulinnanaimo said:


> All true Mark but there is a difference between adding a $730.00 electronic item and pumping out the holding tank.


If Sherlock Holmes was here, with just that bit of evidence he could tell you as much about the boat than any surveyor.... "Theres been lots of deferred maintenance. Lots. Run, Watson! Run!"


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Whilst I agree with @Jeff_H this is an old, low value boat and your contractual list would take the buyer and seller back to their Lawyer two or three times... at $600 per hour. Just to put those points into legal language that the lawyer wouldn't face instant disbarment for incompetence would take a few hours work. and similar for the other lawyer to be satisfied,

on a Lagoon 450 with a used price around US$550,000 yes. But on an old 30 footer?

Added:

On Yachtworld there a 1982 Cape Dory 30 It says "This yacht is ready for a lucky new owner with so much new equipment and great maintenance and asking a very low $25,000. She is ready for sea now." https://www.yachtworld.co.uk/boats/1982/Cape-Dory-30-3542932/
If that is the actual boat then the language "She is ready for sea now" is a big problem. Unless Ready for Sea means the Holding tank can only be emptied in the ocean!

Mark


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## Siamese (May 9, 2007)

Okay, so I read _most_ of the replies.

Sounds like the whole deal is over-complicated by a notion that the OP has regarding the seller "being responsible" for correcting or accommodating for some rigging issues. If the boat is as-is/where is, you hand the seller an agreed upon amount of money, and they hand you the keys.

Philosophically, you're saying that if you and the seller agree on a price, and a survey shows a deficiency, the seller is somehow OBLIGATED to make a correction. Uh, uh.

The deficiencies you find on the vessel are bargaining points as you attempt to talk the seller into lowering their price. That's all.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Whilst I agree with @Jeff_H this is an old, low value boat and your contractual list would take the buyer and seller back to their Lawyer two or three times... at $600 per hour. Just to put those points into legal language that the lawyer wouldn't face instant disbarment for incompetence would take a few hours work. and similar for the other lawyer to be satisfied,
> Mark


What I have found is that if you press for that list of items inserted in the contract, most brokers who members of YBA (Yacht Brokers Association of America) have access to standard boilerplate language for each of those items. Its actually pretty easy to insert those items as a plug and play into an agreement if you want them there. I should note that some of these items are things that a seller might want (buyer's acknowledged defects, and deadlines in particular) and that by including them, you are showing that this is a serious deal and are not about jerking the seller around.

Jeff


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

To get back to the original question, I would assume neither the buyer nor seller was aware of the cracked swages prior to survey. If the seller is not willing to drop the price a bit to cover the costs, then the buyer can either accept the price or walk. Pretty simple.


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

Minnewaska said:


> The bottom line is, both the buyer and seller and can do whatever they like, within the bounds of their written agreement. The standard agreement requires the seller to sell their boat, as is, for the disclosed price. It allows the buyer to survey it and change their mind, by an acceptance date. If they change their mind, they can refuse to accept the vessel or make a new offer.
> 
> What may be the right thing to do or what will work is situation specific and people specific.


Legal advice over the internet is worth what you paid for it (and sometimes less), but Minne has it exactly right. The terms of the contract govern the boundaries of acceptable behavior. And Minne and everyone else who has said that there is no "right" or overtly "reasonable" answer on what should the split of costs be are also correct.

Case in point was my purchase of a Catalina 28 last November. I did research on comps before making an offer, and also factored into my offer the results of my pre-survey inspection, including the fact that the lifelines needed replacement. My offer was contingent on a survey. During the survey, we discovered that the engine water pump was leaking and needed to be replaced. The OP also disclosed that the steering pedestal was leaking into the aft berth. The OP and I agreed to split the cost of a new water pump, and that he would pay to fix the leaking pedestal. I was happy with this as I had already gotten him to pay for the survey haul and the winter storage.

Also, be careful with your survey report. I liked my surveyor, but I'm not thrilled with the written report. First, while testing the engine, he found that the tachometer was off by about 1100 rpm. That didn't make it into the report. Also, the condition of the lifelines (which we discussed during the survey and which he said would be a recommendation in the report) weren't mentioned either. He also recommended the installation of a CO alarm (right next to a picture of the salon where the CO alarm was prominently visible). I guess these could be seen as simple omissions or glitches; but most puzzling was the matter of the battery charger. During the survey, the three of us (me, the surveyor and the PO) discussed that there was no battery charger; that the batteries were only charged by the alternator. The surveyor made a point of telling me what a great upgrade that would be (he knew I would be keeping the boat at a dock). Yet in the report, the presence of a battery charger - including make, model and location! - is specifically described (It's not there; I checked). I did not notice these discrepancies until much later, as I was mostly fixed on the value and getting a copy to my insurance company. Now, it's way too late to ask him to address or explain them. Moral of the story: read the survey report carefully immediately after you get it! Ask the surveyor to explain things that don't make sense.

Sad coda was that the yard failed to fix the pedestal leak as instructed, and I didn't discover that until May. So rather than chase the OP down, I paid the yard to do the work myself. Oh well.


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## sailpower (Jun 28, 2008)

JimsCAL said:


> To get back to the original question, I would assume neither the buyer nor seller was aware of the cracked swages prior to survey. If the seller is not willing to drop the price a bit to cover the costs, then the buyer can either accept the price or walk. Pretty simple.


This ^^^^^^^^^^

Drawing lines in the sand over who is morally responsible for what can be soul satisfying but not always productive.

You surveyed the boat and can ask for whatever you want. The seller can say yes/no/compromise. None of these actions require justification or make the buyer or the seller better or more moral than the other.

There is no one size fits all answer. People are people.

Maybe the OP should consider the money he already has into the deal as part of his decision? Travel expenses, survey and survey haul aren't usually cheap and if the issue really is about a few rigging bits do you really want to throw that money away and start over on another old boat?

If you feel that your line in the sand requires you to do just that then that is what you do. If not....?

One thing is for sure, a year from now a $500 or so difference in the buying price will be the least of your concerns.

Good luck.


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## sasjzl (Jul 28, 2012)

I love that I got youse guys going here. I keep reading 'simple....no philosophical issue....so what...who cares' and we are getting to 6 pages of 'who cares'. The legalistic turn this thread has taken I find interesting in itself but off the mark that i am aiming for. Maybe the word "philosophical" threw people off. It is probably more accurate to say that I am really interested in the psychology of the process of buying a used boat in this great country of ours. 

Australia, I thought they were descendants of convicts from England. Do they even have laws there?

I have lost $800 dollars on less important things than a boat survey so you may rest assured that I will not be wasting any time or money on a lawyer. To further describe my saga I wrote a strongly worded letter to the broker with an attached summary that the Surveyor gave me which includes the deficiencies found in red 16 point bold highlight. So there is a list of stuff that doesn't make the grade mostly for safety reasons and about 15% of them are boldized (sp?) as above to emphasize them to the seller. The broker called me to ask if he could forward this to the seller. 

I, of course, said go for it. I am now waiting for this missive to percolate in the mind of the seller and we will see what we will see. My text pretty much outlined how poorly the boat had been prepared for sale but that I would like to work with him to come to an agreement in light of the surveyors findings. If the seller cares so little for the boat maybe he will give it to me. I did not make another offer as I told the broker that I did not want to insult the seller and scare him away. 

Now....I need predictions on what happens next......

Carry on. And I do love the several Aussies that I have stumbled across. I just like to poke them from time to time to ensure that they are paying attention.


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## sasjzl (Jul 28, 2012)

Love this remark Mark:
"If that is the actual boat then the language "She is ready for sea now" is a big problem. Unless Ready for Sea means the Holding tank can only be emptied in the ocean!"

You feel my pain....and made me smile at the same time. Thank you.


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## sasjzl (Jul 28, 2012)

Sorry to spoil the predictions but I just learned that the seller has lowered the price to a number that I cannot reveal because it is too low. It will leave plenty of room for getting this boat ready to get beyond the 3 miles limit so we can empty that poop out. And not a word of legalese has been spoken or written. 

This IS a great country!


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## OldMan-theSea (May 20, 2019)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> 1982.... Where is, As is.
> 
> &#8230; Your survey report is for you, not the seller.


The seller knows the general condition of the boat, better than the buyer. The seller is offering it "as is" and the buyer has to decide whether to take it.



MikeOReilly said:


> I guess I should add that if this rigging is original to the boat, then you certainly SHOULD have included the cost of re-rigging in your assessment and offer.


So the buyer should have some repairs/maintenance in mind that (s)he would do, regardless of the survey. If the survey reveals something else, that will factor into the decision and, then secondarily, the final selling price. Don't assume, however, that the seller will discount the needed work.



paulinnanaimo said:


> If the seller is going to help out with the costs of all the necessary repairs he will probably end up having to give you the boat free. You decide what the boat is worth to you in it's present condition and make an offer.


The only time the survey would likely affect the seller is if it reveals something (s)he was not aware of (or its severity).

But, I would consider buying a Cape Dory 30 in almost any condition if the final purchase price was consistent with that.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

sasjzl said:


> Sorry to spoil the predictions but I just learned that the seller has lowered the price to a number that I cannot reveal because it is too low. It will leave plenty of room for getting this boat ready to get beyond the 3 miles limit so we can empty that poop out. And not a word of legalese has been spoken or written.
> 
> This IS a great country!


If that means you've bought it, congratulations.

I can sell you a swaging kit...

:devil


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

sasjzl said:


> ....the seller has lowered the price to a number that I cannot reveal because it is too low. .....


Enjoy your new boat! This too low to disclose didn't make sense. Why would that be.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> Enjoy your new boat! This too low to disclose didn't make sense. Why would that be.


'cos he feels like he maybe Gazumped!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gazumping

.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> 'cos he feels like he maybe Gazumped!
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gazumping
> 
> .


No way I would spend money on a survey, without a written agreement that has an anti-Gazumping clause. Perhaps it's only the counter offer that isn't documented at this point, but I'd not sign the acceptance without it. The standard purchase contract auto-rejects with the passage of time and the buyer gets their deposit back.

Perhaps the OP is just waiting for it to be signed, which I would understand.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Congratulations. I am glad that it all worked out without to much drama. Enjoy the new to you boat.

Jeff


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