# Tough little boat



## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

I'm looking to move up from our Catalina 22 to something that would be safer to cross Lake Michigan. I would like to keep costs down by stepping the mast and trailer launching the boat in the spring and recovering in the fall my self. So far, it looks like the Pacific Seacraft 25 would be my leading contender; moderate draft, well-built, tabernacle mast step (I think).

The limitations (other than price) are that I would need to find a boat that has at least a yard trailer, moderate draft, and mast that can be stepped by two people and an A-frame, probably fixed keel (tired of dragging weeds around on my keel cable).

What else should go on my list?
PSC25, Cape Dory25D...?


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## saildork (Feb 20, 2007)

Hey Barquito, Sail that C22 across the lake. You might have a BFS to report on... if you make it, that is. 

I would give you a hard time about moving on from your C22, but I'll probably do the same one of these days. Clearing weeds from the cable does tend to be a large sized PITA, though. I had to go overboard at start of a race once to clear my cable. Probably the only time a boat started a race hove-to with the skipper swimming around under the boat.:laugher :laugher 

Good luck on your search. 

Pat


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## casioqv (Jun 15, 2009)

Catalina 25 perhaps?

How rough does it get on Lake Michigan? I think the C22 can be pretty tough if set up properly- storm sails, good rigging, all hatches sealed and battened down properly, etc.


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## SeanRW (Apr 26, 2009)

Barquito said:


> ISo far, it looks like the Pacific Seacraft 25 would be my leading contender; moderate draft, well-built, *tabernacle mast step* (I think).


I'm Canadian and I've heard the phrase TABERNAC used quite extensively in Montreal while in school but never explicitly in reference to a mast.

For those of you who are "French Canadian challenged" it's rough english equivalent would be "F***ing Mast"

Just sharing the joys of official bi-lingualism with the sailing community


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## johnnyandjebus (Sep 15, 2009)

Hey

You might consider the contessa 26. It meets some of your requirements but not all.
On the plus side
- a very safe boat that will handle great lake conditions.
- Price, here in Canada a well maintained co26 will run you about 10-15,000$
- small enough to be handled by 1 - 2 people, including mast stepping(on deck not on keel)
- She will always be one of the prettiest boats in the harbour  
- given the fact that she was built in Ontario there are plenty used co26's to be found on the great lakes

on the neg side
- mine is stored on a trailer and quite tow-able but I would not want to launch her via the trailer. She weighs in at about 5400 pounds with a full keel and relatively deep draft for her length
- what you get in safety you lose in comfort, she is small by today's standards with well less that 6 foot headroom
- the most popular engine is a 7.5 hp ferryman, very reliable but vibrates like crazy and parts can be hard to find.

For more info on the boat check out co26.com
(sorry I can't include a link to the site as this is my first post on sailnet and the site will not allow me to embed links in my postings just yet.)



Good luck in your search,
John


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

The Norsea 27 is long keel, tough, available in centre and aft cockpit versions and trailerable. Nor'Sea 27
Brian


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## bobmcgov (Jul 19, 2007)

Compac 23 might be fun.


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## patrickrea (Aug 20, 2007)

I'll chime in too. The Pacific Seacraft is a nice boat and would do the job easily. The other comment above about the Contessa 26 is right on but the price is more likely to be LOWER than that. Another couple to consider are the Continental 25 (almost identical to the Contessa) and the Grampian 26. These are all classic, guaranteed to get you there, older design. Your Catalina is quicker.

For that matter you could buy a Shark, a Northstar 500, a C&C 25, a Mirage 26, a Hughes 26 or a Nonsuch 26. These are also pretty bulletproof designs. The C&C, Mirage and Northstar are faster, the Nonsuch is pure simplicity and the Shark is a Shark, heavy but surfable (trust me I know, that was concusion #3 involving a spinnaker pole).

Anyone of these boats can be had for under US$12,000 but not one will have been built after 1980 with the exception of the Nonsuch. They just can't build a decent small boat nowadays that can handle a rough ride in comfort.


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

Thanks for the great ideas so far. I have seen guys with about 3'6" of draft launch from a trailer at the ramp nearby. I think 4' might be difficult (Contessa 26). The NorSea 27 looks interesting. Any idea about how many are aft cabin vs. aft dinette, and availability in the Great Lakes area?

It looks like most boats of this size have deck stepped masts, and if they don't have tabernacle plates something could be fabricated that would allow raising mast without the use of a crane.

I might have trouble towing some of these with my Jeep (5000# max). Maybe I should get my daughter an old F350 pickup for her 16th birthday.


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

BTW, the previous owner said he took the C22 accross Lake Michigan and back. He had to motor all the way back! But, I have been told that the waves on the Lakes can build up some and have a very short period for their height. Midwestern T-storms can be strong and unpredictable.


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## defrich (Nov 10, 2008)

*trailerable*

I've seen Lake Erie go to blue water style waves quick time from calm. Your pictures of the turmoil are quite informative.
As to a trailerable sailboat for the lake. I have just purchased a 26M from MacGregor ( no personal info as of yet, it gets here ( Long Island ) in 9 days ( but who's counting )). You can check the MacGregor site for a video of a 26M in Gale conditionds. Trailer weight is under 3000 pounds.

Blue Skies...Richard


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

*Not going to tow them with a Jeep*

Before this thread spins out of control into a Macgregor bash fest, let me comment.

You might want to check out John Vigors 20 small boats to take you anywhere and add an Albin Vega and International Folkboat to your list. I am looking for a boat in a similar category to you and know your constraints. I have a V-8 explorer and probably have a slightly larger towing capacity than you and know of no boat in this category that will be towed comfortably by anything less than a 1/2 ton pickup with a 3/4 ton recommended. Figure aroun 5-6 thousand pounds for the boat, 7-8 thousand on the trailer.

Also concider this boat while being on a trailer is not trailerable. It will take a major effort to get this thing in the water and ready to sail figure 2+ hours. Not something you want to drop into the lake for an afternoon sail. Other thoughts may be a Montgomery 17 or a ranger 23, both light enough to tow, and capable sailors.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Here's a link to James Baldwin's site - the section on choosing a small capable boat for offshore use. Atom Voyages | Voyages Aboard the Sailboat Atom - Good Old Boats List - choosing a small voyaging sailboat
The linked page lists many boats and gives brief descriptions of each as well a stheir appropriate web links.
The whole site is well worth a read through as it's full of good information.
Brian


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

That is a great list! Good info on that website. Thank you.


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## defrich (Nov 10, 2008)

*MacGregor bashfest?*

As I was the only one who I saw posted 'MacGregor'. Perhaps you would clarify your statment.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

defrich said:


> As I was the only one who I saw posted 'MacGregor'. Perhaps you would clarify your statment.


I suspect he was just referring to a tendency sometimes seen on this forum for folks to make comments about the rough-weather and sailing capability of some MacGregor models. I think he did not intend to imply anything negative about MacGregors, instead he was hoping to preempt the usual gratuitous comments by refocussing the conversation on trailering. Let's hope he succeeded.

So, congrats on your new boat and how many more days until delivery? (Who's counting right? )

P.S. Back on topic, I'm a fan of that tough little PSC25 (if headroom isn't important to you). Another good candidate for the O.P. might be the Tartan 27, a full-keel/centerboarder. Pretty tough to tow without a truck or Suburban, though.


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## defrich (Nov 10, 2008)

*MacGregor*

Peace be with you John.
Blue Skies....Richard


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## OdayDave (Jul 11, 2007)

I sailed from Milwaukee to White Lake, then to Pentwater and then back to Milwaukee on a Precision 23. We motored over due to lack of wind, and had a great sail (2-3 foot waves during the day, and 4-5 at night) on the way back. We covered about 70 miles on the return trip. In any case, the optimal size of the boat depends on a lot of factors including the captain/crew and just as important, your schedule. The C22 can certainly handle a lot of rough weather but it may not be comfortable. I would take my O'Day 222 across if I had the right weather window, but I wouldn't want to be in a situation where I had to go on a day when the weather was deteriorating significantly. It's not that I don't think I could handle a lot of situations (I have roller furling on the jib, and two reef points in the main and the boat is setup well for coastal cruising), it's just that it would be uncomfortable at best and you are pushing the envelope a bit if things really get bad. In my opinion, if you want to do this quite frequently, then something in the 25 foot range or bigger would be better (e.g., Catalina 25, O'Day 25 or 26, Seaward 25, etc.). But there is a tradeoff. Launching, retrieving and towing is more of a hassle unless you are on Michigan a lot. If you are flexible on when you cross (both ways), you may want to consider going across with your current boat assuming it is properly equipped. I'm probably going to do that next year with my O'Day. Or, just charter one and go across. Just my two cents.

Dave 
O'Day 222


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## CaptKermie (Nov 24, 2006)

defrich said:


> I've seen Lake Erie go to blue water style waves quick time from calm. Your pictures of the turmoil are quite informative.
> As to a trailerable sailboat for the lake. I have just purchased a 26M from MacGregor ( no personal info as of yet, it gets here ( Long Island ) in 9 days ( but who's counting )). You can check the MacGregor site for a video of a 26M in Gale conditionds. *Trailer weight is under 3000 pounds.*
> 
> Blue Skies...Richard


I don't know where you got the under 3000# quote from but you are very mistaken.
I own a 2003 26M and can assure you the trailered weight is much closer to 4000# especially when you have an engine with two full gas tanks two batteries and all your supplies and provisions. A class 3 tow hitch and vehicle is required along with a longer wheel base.
There is no way a MacGregor will survive the turmoil in those pictures, you'd be a gonner. As far as the video you mention, I have watched it, and even though seeing is believing, few sailors would take a Mac out in gale force winds. Small craft, absolutely, I do it all the time, but when the winds start gusting over 30 knots it is long overdue to head back, I call it quits at 25 knots - 20-25 is on the edge for me but I can still handle it.
Congrats on your new Mac, it will give you years of enjoyment, I am on season 7 with mine and have never looked back, it is a great boat for its' intended venues but ocean going it isn't. I sail the Pacific Northwest.


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## defrich (Nov 10, 2008)

Thank you Capt Kermie,
Truely , the boat empty , weighs <2600 pounds. Add a motor and the weight of the trailor and you are hovering at around 4000 pounds. My bad!
Appreciate your putting things in the proper perspective.
I hope you enjoy your 26M.

Blue Skies.....Richard


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## annm78 (Sep 21, 2009)

Husband's family had their Catalina 22 out on Lake Michigan when he was a kid. Said the waves were pretty big and he remembers the bow dipping way into the water, springing up about 5 ft into the air and coming back down, so the waves can certainly get pretty big. At least it sounds big to me, but I'm a newbie to sailing.


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

> You might want to check out John Vigors 20 small boats to take you anywhere and add an Albin Vega and International Folkboat to your list. I am looking for a boat in a similar category to you and know your constraints. I have a V-8 explorer and probably have a slightly larger towing capacity than you and know of no boat in this category that will be towed comfortably by anything less than a 1/2 ton pickup with a 3/4 ton recommended. Figure aroun 5-6 thousand pounds for the boat, 7-8 thousand on the trailer.
> 
> Also concider this boat while being on a trailer is not trailerable. It will take a major effort to get this thing in the water and ready to sail figure 2+ hours. Not something you want to drop into the lake for an afternoon sail. Other thoughts may be a Montgomery 17 or a ranger 23, both light enough to tow, and capable sailors.


I actually have that book (it is a great help). What I would like to do is find a boat that is bigger and more seaworthy than my C22, but, that I can still launch from a trailer (possibly with great effort once per year). I wouldn't expect that very many boats in this range would be good for regular trailer sailing. So, the trick is to find as much boat as I can, that still has moderate draft, and probably won't get me killed if caught in a big T-storm in the middle of Lake Michigan.

Here is my expanded list:

Bristol 24 -- Draft 3'5". Standing headroom
Pacific Seacraft Dana 24 -- Draft 3"10", maybe a bit deep
Bayfield 25 -- Draft 2'11" !, too tender?
Cape Dory 25D -- Draft 3'6". 'Slouching' headroom
Pacific Seacraft 25 -- Draft 3'3". Maybe not enough headroom.
Vancouver 25 --Draft 3'10"
Cape Dory 26--Draft 3'7".
Voyager 26--Draft 3'4". Probably too hard to find.
Albin Vega 27--Draft 3'10" Maybe too deep, but, I like it.
Nor'Sea 27--Draft 3'10. Designed for trailering.
Bayfield 29 -- Draft: 3'6"! Like the head in place of V berth.
Cheoy Lee Bermuda 30 --Draft 3'8". Maybe too much wood to care for.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

All those listed, with the possible exception of the last 2, could easily be transported home for the winter on a suitable trailer with the right tow vehicle. Moving it twice a year is a lot different than visiting the launch ramp regularly to daysail. Looks like some good choices.
Brian


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## merc2dogs (Jun 5, 2004)

There are a couple of Ariels for sale in the lake michigan area. Ariels are good solid boats, well liked by their owners.

I feel that trailer 'launchable' depends more on draft than other considerations. 4ft being about the max that most ramps can handle. 
Torsion half axles, would easily allow the keel support on the trailer to be within 6" of the ground as opposed to over a foot for a regular axle, so the needed ramp depth would be a bit easier to find. 


Though I've thought about inflatable pontoons on the trailer, or hard floats that can be let out on reels so you could float the boat/trailer out to deeper water then 'sink' the trailer from under the boat and reel it in. That way, as long as you had deep water nearby, all you'd need at the ramp would be two or three feet of water. It would open up a whole lot of launch areas.

Ken.


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

Barquito said:


> I wouldn't expect that very many boats in this range would be good for regular trailer sailing.


Sounds like a good plan on a good list of boats. Also with only an annual launch and recovery driving around in an undersized vehicle is less of an issue. Since you are going to only launch once a year, why worry about draft or raising the mast yourself? Based on the cost of your shopping list, I can assume you are not poor. While adding an extra expense at the beginning and end of the season, getting a crane to launch your boat would allow you to not worry about draft or raising the mast yourself and expand your choices to deeper draft boats. Even if you could raise the mast with a small crew and a system it may be worth the insurance to have a crane to make sure it is done in safety to the mast and the crew.


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

> Sounds like a good plan on a good list of boats. Also with only an annual launch and recovery driving around in an undersized vehicle is less of an issue. Since you are going to only launch once a year, why worry about draft or raising the mast yourself? Based on the cost of your shopping list, I can assume you are not poor. While adding an extra expense at the beginning and end of the season, getting a crane to launch your boat would allow you to not worry about draft or raising the mast yourself and expand your choices to deeper draft boats. Even if you could raise the mast with a small crew and a system it may be worth the insurance to have a crane to make sure it is done in safety to the mast and the crew.


That is a good point. I would be stretching the budget a bit with some of the boats listed. I just want to avoid getting crushed by the ongoing expenses of owning a larger boat. Considering boats with draft greater than 3'6" might also allow me to find a boat that costs less (that would pay for years of launching and recovering). I think I am just trying to find ways to rationalize buying a bigger boat


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

Any style of MORC boat. Small and seaworthy. Not to mention, a faster PHRF rating than 240+.


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## casioqv (Jun 15, 2009)

Is the C22 really less seaworthy than these other boats? I can see that it's less comfortable- but is it really less safe- and what about the C22 makes it so?

In defense of the C22, it seems like it's heavily rigged for its displacement, and the hull is extremely thick hand-laid fiberglass. It also has small windows, all of the hatches can be well sealed and are made as strong as the deck itself, and able to be fastened securely. A lot of the parts are the same as used on the Catalina 27 which has almost 3x the displacement.

According to "Seaworthy Offshore Sailboat: A Guide to Essential Features, Handling, and Gear By John Vigor" a bluewater boat should have the breaking strength of one lower shroud plus the upper shroud equal to 1.4x boat displacement. The C22 rigging is sized to about 2x boat displacement.

I don't have a lot of experience, but I'm hoping to do a lot of coastal island hopping in my C22, and I'd like to think the C22 would at least stay afloat through a decent storm if worst came to worst.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

I don't think I'd call a Catalina 27 or the Catalina 30 "offshore capable" boats either without modifications. I'd start with that overlarge companionway and continue on to the interior cabinets that are held in place with just a few screws. There are many other items as well. In the last few weeks another asked what should be changed on a Catalina 36 for offshore use. A Catalina 36 is a lot more boat in almost all ways than a Catalina 22. Here is a post by Mainesail explaining why as his post was excellent.
Brian


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## QuickMick (Oct 15, 2009)

*great lakes are deadly lakes*

growing up on the shores of the indiana dunes, and watching the undertow take people..... then growing and watching lakes take boats.... i would step wisely.... i would suggest looking to the Mac for suggestions... but lest you want a pocket crusier check the Jclass if you have the scratch.... i know belmont harbour is expensive, so you might be able to get more boat by mooring a wee bit outside the city


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Albin Vega*

Try a Albin Vega 28 they were built for the North Sea and are very sea kindly they have a nice layout tiller steering with a volvo sail drive with a 4 foot draft.


Barquito said:


> I'm looking to move up from our Catalina 22 to something that would be safer to cross Lake Michigan. I would like to keep costs down by stepping the mast and trailer launching the boat in the spring and recovering in the fall my self. So far, it looks like the Pacific Seacraft 25 would be my leading contender; moderate draft, well-built, tabernacle mast step (I think).
> 
> The limitations (other than price) are that I would need to find a boat that has at least a yard trailer, moderate draft, and mast that can be stepped by two people and an A-frame, probably fixed keel (tired of dragging weeds around on my keel cable).
> 
> ...


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Albin Vega again*



Barquito said:


> I actually have that book (it is a great help). What I would like to do is find a boat that is bigger and more seaworthy than my C22, but, that I can still launch from a trailer (possibly with great effort once per year). I wouldn't expect that very many boats in this range would be good for regular trailer sailing. So, the trick is to find as much boat as I can, that still has moderate draft, and probably won't get me killed if caught in a big T-storm in the middle of Lake Michigan.
> 
> Here is my expanded list:
> 
> ...


I'll swear by this boat, built for the north seas and I believe they delivered by an Trans Atlantic crossing, to the U.S. to be sold. This little boat is very sea worthy, I've sailed on one in Jacksonville Florida on the St.Johns River at night through a squall 2 years ago from a Tropical Storm in South Florida, I know it wasn't the ocean however the river was a 3 to 4 foot white cap chop, the boat sailed really well with a reef in the sail, I was surprised. I later sailed the same boat to St. Augustine Florida off shore in 6 to 7 foot seas and didn't have a problem at all other than this I've heard of people doing circumnavigations in them, so I've heard. Be careful of Cheoy Lee's they don't call them Cheoy Leakey's for nothing.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

The NorSea 27 is a solid boat and there was one for sale at the marina down in Annapolis that we held the Sailnet meetup at. It was on a trailer...


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Launch?*



merc2dogs said:


> There are a couple of Ariels for sale in the lake michigan area. Ariels are good solid boats, well liked by their owners.
> 
> I feel that trailer 'launch able' depends more on draft than other considerations. 4ft being about the max that most ramps can handle.
> Torsion half axles, would easily allow the keel support on the trailer to be within 6" of the ground as opposed to over a foot for a regular axle, so the needed ramp depth would be a bit easier to find.
> ...


 Why not take it to a Marina and use the Travel lift, it could be a lot safer, less of a hassel and in doing this you have professional help with your rigging, a 27 foot boat mast isn't the easiest to just pop up on your boat at the ramp they are fairly heavy and I wouldn't do it with my girlfriend and nobody else. You also have to make sure that you don't put up your mast and then realize you have a bridge down the road and have to take it down, I don't know about up North but a lot of ramps down here in Florida are up smaller creeks and rivers which are crossed by low lying bridges that allow for small water craft generally on trailers but not sail boats with a 30 foot mast, know what I mean.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

The Vega is 27', not 28. While there may be a saildrive in one or two, the period when the boat was constructed was before the introduction of the saildrive, and that's a good thing. Original engine was a gas or diesel with a variable pitch prop. Excellent sailer, several have circumnavigated and many have crossed oceans.
Brian


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

> Is the C22 really less seaworthy than these other boats? I can see that it's less comfortable- but is it really less safe- and what about the C22 makes it so?
> 
> In defense of the C22, it seems like it's heavily rigged for its displacement, and the hull is extremely thick hand-laid fiberglass. It also has small windows, all of the hatches can be well sealed and are made as strong as the deck itself, and able to be fastened securely. A lot of the parts are the same as used on the Catalina 27 which has almost 3x the displacement


I think the C22 is a well built boat for the money. I agree it does have good standing rigging. However, as a whole I don't think it was intended to go off shore. All else the same, the C22 is just too small to be as safe as the boats listed. The cockpit is too big (I did add additional scuppers). The deck gear is not very robust, and some parts don't even have backing plates. The flat shape in the hull will result in limit of positive stability (or whatever it's called) that is not high enough. And finally, I just am not comfortable with a swing keel in bad conditions. Even with good weather forcasts, I would imagine it is possible to get pretty trashed in a 3 day passage from Milwaukee to the North Channel, for example. I would like to go into bad weather knowing that the boat is stronger than I am.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

The Catalina 22 is a good trailor - sailer but not for offshore. The cockpit is too large, the companionway is much too large and the opening goes too low in the cockpit for safety. One good wave, which doesn't have to be too big when the boat is 22' long, would inundate the cabin too easily. The drop boards are also tapered which isn't good - they only have to go up an inch or so to come out.
Here's 2 pictures - Catalina 22 cockpit and the safer one on the Vega 27. Not only is the Vega opening smaller, the sides are nearly vertical so the drop boards have to be lifted up a ways to come out - less convenient but a better design for offshore.
Brian


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## merc2dogs (Jun 5, 2004)

mallory42 said:


> Why not take it to a Marina and use the Travel lift, it could be a lot safer, less of a hassel and in doing this you have professional help with your rigging, a 27 foot boat mast isn't the easiest to just pop up on your boat at the ramp they are fairly heavy and I wouldn't do it with my girlfriend and nobody else. You also have to make sure that you don't put up your mast and then realize you have a bridge down the road and have to take it down, I don't know about up North but a lot of ramps down here in Florida are up smaller creeks and rivers which are crossed by low lying bridges that allow for small water craft generally on trailers but not sail boats with a 30 foot mast, know what I mean.


Oh I agree, a whole lot less hassle, but to me the reason to consider a boat trailerable is if you are able to take care of that yourself.
At more than a few yards up here, winter storage costs include launch and retrieval, and are about the same as launch/haulout and mast (un)stepping fees. So, if you don't plan on launching and stepping the mast yourself, you would be farther ahead to forget about the trailer. (driving distance to work on the boat could easily offset any savings though)

Ken.


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