# Lake Sailing -vs- Ocean Sailing



## NCountry (May 25, 2006)

I had an interesting conversation with a 78 year old sailor that wandered past my boat this weekend and wanted to share his thoughts and get some feedback.
He said he had sailed both blue water and on lakes. (I can't speak to the actual truthfulness of this statement but he did seem rather knowledgable) He told me several interesting things that I'm just going to list with no order in mind as to importance.
He said that with ocean sailing the waves a bigger BUT the wind does not gust like it does on Oklahoma lakes.
He related that a friend of his that grew up in England likes to tell people that "he learned to sail on the North Sea. He learned to trim sails in the extremely gusty conditions on Oklahoma Lakes." (we had this discussion because over the weekend we saw winds that were around 15 but gusting to 35. Something we consider normal this time of year)
He also related that as lake sailors we spend a lot more time tacking and in general it's his experience that it makes lake sailors better at tacking.
Then there's the issue of the size of waves and the way the boat rolls in swells. He says that blue water sailors are better prepared to handle things like chafing issues and securing the interior of the boat for these things as well as things like running preventers.
On the issue of navigation of course the blue water sailors get the nod as there's not much to navigation on "most" inland water ways.
The other thing that I found the most interesting is that he said that there are a lot of boats out there that many consider passage makers that he would never cross an ocean in. He specifically talked about a 37 foot Endeavor he spent time on a few years ago.
Not trying to institute an argument here but thought these were some interesting observations from an elderly and experienced sailor and wanted to hear what other sailors thought of these things.


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## Boasun (Feb 10, 2007)

One difference between Lake & Ocean sailing is that with the "other side" there is a slight difference in distance. :laugher
There are more gusts on lakes due to the terrain around the lake.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

As a Great Lakes sailor, I noticed the ocean swell aboard our esteemed member Giulietta's boat, but I can't say any of the conditions were "bigger" than those of even Lake Ontario. My wife had breezier conditions and didn't mention that anything was different except the period of the wave trains, due to 2000 NM of fetch, I suppose.

The viciousness of sudden summer squalls and the steep "square" waves of Lake Ontario have surprised many an ocean sailor, though. There was a member here named Lyn in a steel Roberts 38 with her husband Andrew who commented on it when we made their acquaintance in Toronto a couple of summers ago. I have heard from racers that if you can sail in Lake Ontario's frequently nasty conditions, you will be fine on the ocean.

Lake Superior is arguably worse and certainly colder. Many an ocean-sized ship lies in several pieces a thousand feet down in its dark depths.

Chafe is an issue, but far less, of course, than at sea, where 20 days of 24/7 trade wind passagemaking can wear a hole in anything. The effects of salt water can also surprise freshwater sailors...unpleasantly!


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## cesarid (Sep 2, 2003)

*Correct*

The old timer was pretty accurate. There are more challenges in the blue water but lake sailors tend to be better at tweaking the sails because they have to do it so much.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

I am a long time saltwater racer and not much has topped some of the sudden weather bursts that sneak over the mountains on Lake George NY


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

Very Steep with no break in between is the best way to describe the waves on Michigan. You are constantly in motion. There is no break. You get hit by a wave and the next is literally on top of you before you can say "Holy Crap". And it does not end. They just keep coming and coming. This of course is in storm or sever conditions. 
Now, that said. I hear of twenty foot mountains in the ocean swell and I think, "No Way. Not for me"


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## Keldee (Jun 23, 2008)

Lake Erie also is very nasty at times but if you keep an eye on the weather with lake sailing you can choose whether to be out in it ,or not,ocean sailing you have to take what comes.You have to make sure you can handle it and not rely on all the latest gizmos,the "comfort" of a rally or being rescued.If you cant look out for yourself you dont belong on the ocean.Apart from going the short hop to the Bahamas you wont see me out there!


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## MJBrown (Apr 1, 2009)

We used to keep boats on the NJ shore and the ocean was the only place to sail. Under normal conditions there was always a nice steady breeze, either off shore or off land. For sail trim you could set em and forget em and follow the land right down the coast. You also could get rollers with breaking tops that you could see over while standing at the helm.

Now we're on the upper Chesapeake Bay and there aren't any rollers. No room for them to build up. Chop is yet another thing. Like sailor said about Lake Michigan, they just keep coming at you. Short, steep waves that will make make that cold beer you have when hit port taste awefully good. Winds on the bay are flukely as well. A lot of influence from the land masses that surround it.


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## imiloa (Mar 17, 2004)

*Tides and currents*

Of note is the absence of any appreciable or predictable tides and currents on the lakes that are experienced on the ocean. Here on the Great Lakes there is a phenomenon known as a seiche. These occur (especially on the east-west oriented lakes) when water builds up on one end of the lake due to barometric pressure and wind effects. This can cause water levels to drop or rise a foot or more and is generally unpredictable, unlike a tide. The lack of appreciable currents for most of the Great Lake waters makes navigation simpler as there's rarely need to consider strong set or drift in laying out a course. (There are some areas where appreciable currents need to be accomodated but for the most part that's pretty rare.)


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

NCountry said:


> I had an interesting conversation with a 78 year old sailor that wandered past my boat this weekend and wanted to share his thoughts and get some feedback.
> He said he had sailed both blue water and on lakes. (I can't speak to the actual truthfulness of this statement but he did seem rather knowledgable) He told me several interesting things that I'm just going to list with no order in mind as to importance.
> He said that with ocean sailing the waves a bigger BUT the wind does not gust like it does on Oklahoma lakes.
> He related that a friend of his that grew up in England likes to tell people that "he learned to sail on the North Sea. He learned to trim sails in the extremely gusty conditions on Oklahoma Lakes." (we had this discussion because over the weekend we saw winds that were around 15 but gusting to 35. Something we consider normal this time of year)
> ...


I know nothing about the Endeavor, but as for the rest... I would agree completely. Let's see but I may have a few comments of my own:


You are always screwing with the sails on a lake... especially on Lake Texoma (yes, guess what... it is in OK and TX). This is at least partially due to the canyons that surround it. They change the wind in a matter of seconds and can funnel it stronger than what it is blowing.

Other things I would add is that on the ocean, you are primarily concerned with sea state. ON the lake, it is more wind speed.

You don't have to deal with as many trout line/crab traps on the lake versus ocean.

I would like to tell you that the typical boat in salt water is a true sea going vessel - but I have always found the opposite true. I am not sure why. But there is some stuff in the ocean that I truly do not understand how it is even floating. That was a huge surprise to us.

In a lake, you might tie your boat up tight to the docks. In the ocean, you better not if you want your cleats attached when you get back!! Tides... it took a bit to get used to. The wind can be blowing one direction, but the boat turns the other.

The fish can eat you too.

You can actually see your keel and bottom of the boat. THen you realize you wish you couldn't.

Oh my GOD there are some expensive boats out there. Hatteras, Bergs, Ocean Alex, Nords, etc. Millions and millions of dollars per boat. Yet, it is still the same freaking little Sea Ray 340's that run your butt off the ICW.

Some people take their fishing wayyyyyy too serious. The fish can eat you too.

On a lake, every Sea Ray that has a VHF uses the VHF as a drunken loud speaker to call their friends. Forget good 'etiquite'.... none of them know it or how to use it. On the Ocean, all the Sea Rays may know how to use it... they just don't turn it on (especially when blowing past you on a half plane in a no wake zone).

The coast guard listens and takes their business seriously. They have to with all the Sea Rayers. Not to mention, the fish can eat you too.

Take a good collection of books. You will need them when you spend the night on a unchartered sand bar. And you will learn that even though you spent 120 on your Sea Tow membership, there is no such thing as a soft grounding.

There is this little thing called Hurricanes. Everyone will tell you that they are very rare and have not landed anywhere near you in 54 million years. We went through 5 within about 24 months (Gabrielle, Chralie, Gene, Francis, Ivan).

Mosquitos are NOT the worst biting insects... the No-Seeums are. And they fit through mosquito netting. Bet you didn't know that, huh?

Sailors lie about this Green Flash thing - ain't none of em seen it either except when they pump their heads.

The smell of the sea water you are pumping into your head is worse than what you ate earlier and deposited yourself.

On the lake, no one knows anything about boats and finds a service guy to do it. On the ocean, everyone knows everything about boats, does it themselves, screws it up, and decides they didn't need it in the first place.

And finally, I should lightly mention that the fish can eat you too.


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## capttb (Dec 13, 2003)

> Sailors lie about this Green Flash thing - ain't none of em seen it either except when they pump their heads.


I think you are facing the wrong way Dad, it's in the Pacific and you gotta be in deep water facing west. I've raced small boats on lakes and don't much like it, freakin' land all around makes the winds erractic. Other than that you get the deck a lot saltier in the ocean. A friend who DID learn to sail on the North Sea recently sent this picture of me & the Admiral, just liked it so much wanted to share.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Sweet boat there cap'n. What year is she?


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## fullkeel7 (Apr 16, 2008)

In my search for the 'next' boat, I've been aboard a few Endeavour 37's. That sucker has a HUGH cockpit and for it's size, 2 little bitty drains...getting pooped would not be a good thing. Seems to be built like a tank and probably a fair motion in a seaway, but the 'ol salt is spot on...not a good sailor for the "O"zone IMHO.


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## capttb (Dec 13, 2003)

Thanks Smack, It's a '94, I've spent some time and money getting it pretty "clean", someone left a note on it last week asking if I'd like a partner or to sell. I've got a larger slip available to me and have been thinking about the next boat for a while but I just replaced/rebuilt/serviced everything including the head & kinda hate to give this one up, it's a fun and versatile boat that's easy to squeeze into tight anchorages.
Sorry for the Hijack, carry on as before please.


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## Yamsailor (Jun 7, 2006)

There is an additional difference to consider--Fresh versus Salt water. Salt water is more dense and therefore a sailboat has greater buoyancy than does Fresh water. All else being equal this could affect a sailboats righting-moment as well as performance.

Boasun--Aren't the load lines on a ship different for Fresh and Salt water?


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## tweitz (Apr 5, 2007)

When you find water in the bilge in the ocean, you only panic if its salty, and you can tell by tasting it.


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## Tetra (Oct 1, 2008)

NCountry said:


> He said that with ocean sailing the waves a bigger BUT the wind does not gust like it does on Oklahoma lakes.
> He related that a friend of his that grew up in England likes to tell people that "he learned to sail on the North Sea. He learned to trim sails in the extremely gusty conditions on Oklahoma Lakes."


As an Oklahoma sailor, I can confirm this statement. You learn early how/when to reef. We have wind here and lots of it. I have jiffy reefing on two sets of reef points and can reduce sail in a flash. It's called survival.


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## Waterdog153 (Nov 27, 2009)

I live in the Western NY area and have good access to both Lakes Erie and Ontario. I'm looking for a nice used cruiser/racer. I recently came upon a listing for a 43 footer and wondered if that might be a bit large considering the average conditions found of either or both of these lakes. Any advice?


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## cormeum (Aug 17, 2009)

Waterdog153 said:


> I live in the Western NY area and have good access to both Lakes Erie and Ontario. I'm looking for a nice used cruiser/racer. I recently came upon a listing for a 43 footer and wondered if that might be a bit large considering the average conditions found of either or both of these lakes. Any advice?


I have a 48 footer on Michigan and she's definitely NOT too large.

The Lakes can be quite vicious. Just ask Ted Turner


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## johnshasteen (Aug 9, 2002)

We only sailed on a lake once, Texoma, not for us - when got back to the dock my wife said - no more - let's ship the boat back to the Gulf! Offshore is much more predlictable, a lot less sail handling and tweeking and large waves don't usually break. In the second of the two Force 10 storms we endured, according to the Coast Guard, the seas were 28-30 feet and they were just huge rollers that for most of the 36 hours we were in it, they would wooooooosh under the boat.


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## Waterdog153 (Nov 27, 2009)

cormeum said:


> I have a 48 footer on Michigan and she's definitely NOT too large.
> 
> Thank you for the feedback. Your S&S looks like a beauty. What year is she?


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## SoftJazz (Aug 31, 2009)

I live on the east end of Lake Erie & we've seen several of those seiches this year. Each one caused damage. Most of them were at the end of the season, so as time progressed, there were fewer boats still in the water. One of the above posts said you can tie your boat up tightly to the docks. When they teach us to dock, we are taught _not_ to do that, because of seiches & other phenomena we have around here. It's one of the reasons we like floating docks if we can get them. The water from Lake Erie funnels into the Niagara River here, so you've got a pretty good current in this area, & we've got tides, albeit not like the ocean has. And no salt. Each of the Great Lakes has some issue to deal with. I've been out when it suddenly blew 60, & we had no one to help us cuz everyone else was trying to figure out what to do.

That being said, I'll be doing my first salt-water sailing in April, when I'll be down in the Gulf for a week & a half sailing every day, rain or shine. It's not an ocean crossing but I'm willing to do almost anything once & am counting on enjoying this experience.

I'd also love to get out on Lake Ontario. Maybe next summer. I'd love to find out how it's different from Lake Erie.

As was previously mentioned, there are wrecks on the bottoms of the Great Lakes. Literally hundreds of them. We're not on the ocean, but the storms on big water like we have can take down anything. "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald", the anniversary of which was November 10th, was on Lake Superior, known for its horrendous storms. I've been out in 6' - 8' waves, but I don't want to be out in what took that ship down.


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

Come all you bold young sailor lads who sail the briny breeze 
And heed my tale of the men who sail the boats of the inland seas 
You that scoff and jeer at the sailors here and think they have such ease 
When the journey's short from the inland ports In the Lakes of A-mer-i-key 
If you take your fleet where the water's sweet, there's something you should know 
No quarter's shown when the gale wind's blowing' and the sky has filled with snow 
When your decks are froze and the rail dips low there's nowhere left to flee 
Then from bow to stern make a turtle turn on the Lakes of A-mer-i-key

*CHORUS:* 
So say a prayer for those who dare to sail on the fresh north seas 
If you drink too deep you'll forever sleep in the Lakes of A-mer-i-key

There's times I've seen when the water's green and the waves begin to freeze 
That a close haul tack makes a wood hull crack from her scuppers to her knees 
As you leave the boat and you try to float, no salt gives buoyancy 
There's a waiting grave in the cold dark waves of the lakes of A-mer-i-key

*CHORUS:* 
So say a prayer for those who dare to sail on the fresh north seas 
If you drink too deep you'll forever sleep in the Lakes of A-mer-i-key

The winds come down with a wailing sound and the weather changes fast 
it's a tempest in a teakettle as you run from the icy blast 
And the calm will change to a mountain range as the whitecaps curl and break 
Then the Sisters laugh and kick your aft to the bottom of the lake.

*CHORUS:* 
So say a prayer for those who dare to sail on the fresh north seas 
If you drink too deep you'll forever sleep in the Lakes of A-mer-i-key


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## MC1 (Jan 6, 2008)

Great post Bubb2, that about sums it up! Is there a YouTube link for the musical version of this?

One of the lines ("As you leave the boat and you try to float, no salt gives buoyancy") reminds me of when a friend came boating with me on Lake Ontario and (despite having not swam in about 20 years) insisted on jumping in with no life vest. She jumped in feet-first and sank down quite a bit further than she remembered from swimming in the Atlantic. No more arguments about the virtues of wearing the vest.


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

tommays said:


> I am a long time saltwater racer and not much has topped some of the sudden weather bursts that sneak over the mountains on Lake George NY


I haven't sailed the Great Lakes so not qualified to comment on the above but I have seen some serious line squalls (not visible on radar) in the ITCZ that come screaming out of the night and lift the windspeed from 15 kn to 60 kn in a heartbeat. I've had more than one sail shredded by this.

So ocean sailing has an equivalent at least (I think).

If you're sailing anywhere in the vicinity of a deep tropical low (within 200 miles), expect these squalls day or night, they don't take prisoners.


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## cormeum (Aug 17, 2009)

Waterdog153 said:


> cormeum said:
> 
> 
> > I have a 48 footer on Michigan and she's definitely NOT too large.
> ...


Thanks Waterdog- She was built in 1963.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

I'm pretty sure CharlieCobra was scared when he felt the mighty wrath of our revered Lake Travis last New Year's day.


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## johnshasteen (Aug 9, 2002)

SoftJazz said:


> I live on the east end of Lake Erie & we've seen
> 
> That being said, I'll be doing my first salt-water sailing in April, when I'll be down in the Gulf for a week & a half sailing every day, rain or shine. It's not an ocean crossing but I'm willing to do almost anything once & am counting on enjoying this experience.
> several of those seiches this year.
> ...


SoftJazz, come on down, you'll love the Gulf. Where will you be sailing?
Even in big storms, the Gulf is far less dangerous than the confined waters of the Great Lakes. Had the Edmund Fitzgerald been in the same size storm in the Gulf (the records say she was in winds to 45 kts and seas to 30 ft), she would likely not have gone down. 30 ft storm-driven seas deep in the Gulf, beyond the 20-fathom line, are not prone to froth-cap, break or become confused, they are monsterous rollers. And 45 kt winds likely woudn't drive 30-foot seas in the GUlf - they'd be more in the 18-20 foot range.


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## Jace2 (Oct 13, 2009)

I live in Oklahoma, OKC area, and had the same thing said to me (could it be the same guy?). Don't know, I'm new to sailing, but I do know that the winds in this state are crazy. I once saw a whole line of trees positioned very close to each other along a street. Every one of them was calm, still, literally not moving at all ... except one, right in the center, and freakishly, that one was being tossed around and violently dashed to and fro entirely by itself! There it was, the only one, slamming from side to side, forward, backward, like some invisible hand was shaking the life out of it. Just that one tree, leaving the rest untouched and completely undisturbed. Yes, it was very weird, and even a bit unsettling. 

That is just one example of the strange OK winds ... not to mention tornadoes that rip a house to ground level rubble with the lone exception of that house's closet left still standing, the doors blown off of it, yet the clothes still perfectly hanging on the hangers. True story, I've seen it!

Oklahoma lake experience more challenging that the ocean? Yeah, I believe it.

Keck


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## JewelledJester (Nov 20, 2007)

When we left Chicago on the Mac, winds were a steady 25knts with 6-8ft waves that never let up. Had me purging the manwich we had for dinner in no time. thank God for those motion sickness patches.


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## RainDog (Jun 9, 2009)

I sail on Travis too, and have also seen some strange winds. One day there was a giant wind eddy that covered the whole lake. The winds were 40 gusting to 50 (according to Austin Yacht Club wind gauge) from the North. Right by the Hudson Bend there is a giant cliff on the North shore. The wind was blowing over this hill and then down toward the lake. This crated a very large circular wind phenomenon. It was nearly dead calm in the middle (about the middle of the lake). Near the N shore the wind was blowing from the East. On the S shore it was blowing from the West. All around the winds where shifty and fickle. The middle was dead calm so we could not get through this zone. The South shore was too dangerous because a Jibe was almost a sure thing due to the shifting winds. That left the North shore. It took us three tries to get through. With the winds constantly changing speed and direction. It was very unnerving, but kind of cool. I don't think I would see that kind of thing on the Gulf (not that I would be voluntarily sailing in those kind of winds on the coast.)

To me that joys of Lake sailing are you can sail in big winds and your skills develop much faster since you face constant tacks, wind shifts, high winds (at least on Travis), squalls, anchoring on rock bottoms, dodging boats, and lots of practice running aground. Plus it is nice to be able to take a fresh water dip whenever you get hot.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

JewelledJester said:


> When we left Chicago on the Mac, winds were a steady 25knts with 6-8ft waves that never let up. Had me purging the manwich we had for dinner in no time. thank God for those motion sickness patches.


Jewelled - what were you sailing...or should I say manwiching off of? Heh-heh. The Mac...now that's a race.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

RainDog said:


> To me that joys of Lake sailing are you can sail in big winds and your skills develop much faster since you face constant tacks, wind shifts, high winds (at least on Travis), squalls, anchoring on rock bottoms, dodging boats, and lots of practice running aground. Plus it is nice to be able to take a fresh water dip whenever you get hot.


Huzzah RDog! Even so, I'm really looking forward to finally getting out in the salt.

Did you guys get beat up last month in that 50 knot blow? We had several boats get seriously chewed at our marina.


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## RainDog (Jun 9, 2009)

I find it interesting that so many people on this thread consider Great Lakes sailing lake sailing. Given only two choices, I would consider sailing on the Great Lakes ocean sailing. Granted a third category, perhaps "Inland Seas Sailing", would be best.


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## RainDog (Jun 9, 2009)

smackdaddy said:


> Did you guys get beat up last month in that 50 knot blow? We had several boats get seriously chewed at our marina.


I sold my Lake Travis boat (Catalina 27) when I bought my current boat. I sold it to my sailing buddies, so I would most likely have heard if there was a problem. I still sail in Travis often, but Bartlet (that scoundrel!) has been holding our sail hostage for over 2 months, so no Travis sailing for me in a while. I am dying to get back out there. I really miss it. As usual Bartlet told us our sail would be done in a week, and two month later every week it is still "next week." Hopefully the new owner will give him an ultimatum soon so I can sail Travis again!


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## johnshasteen (Aug 9, 2002)

RainDog said:


> I find it interesting that so many people on this thread consider Great Lakes sailing lake sailing. Given only two choices, I would consider sailing on the Great Lakes ocean sailing. Granted a third category, perhaps "Inland Seas Sailing", would be best.


RainDog, they are still just big lakes and are very different. In the March '08 storm that we endured aboard Paloma in the Gulf, the other two salts were from Wisconsin and sail a Tartan 37 on the Great Lakes - they were amazed at the differences between lakes and salty blue water sailing. Probably the biggest surprise to them was the 30-foot seas that didn't break.
BTW, where in Seabrook do you keep your boat now?


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## RainDog (Jun 9, 2009)

I can understand that there could be a big difference between the Ocean and the Great Lakes. I just also see a very big difference between normal lakes and the Great Lakes. To me, small lake sailing is defined by 1) no scary waves not matter how windy it gets and 2) Worse case scenario, you can always swim to shore. The two combined mean you can sail with a reckless abandon on small lakes that would be downright stupid to try on the Ocean. On the lakes, your life is never really in danger (except getting mowed down by drunk power-boaters) even in situations that really challenge your skills. 

This is somewhat different from the Great Lakes where I imagine someone with my modest skills could very easily get into a bad situation if the weather turned ugly.

John - I am currently at Seabrook Shipyard on the Q dock. I am seriously considering moving to Bahia once I finish my refit. I would love to hear your thoughts on the area.


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## cormeum (Aug 17, 2009)

RainDog said:


> I can understand that there could be a big difference between the Ocean and the Great Lakes. I just also see a very big difference between normal lakes and the Great Lakes. To me, small lake sailing is defined by 1) no scary waves not matter how windy it gets and 2) Worse case scenario, you can always swim to shore. The two combined mean you can sail with a reckless abandon on small lakes that would be downright stupid to try on the Ocean. On the lakes, your life is never really in danger (except getting mowed down by drunk power-boaters) even in situations that really challenge your skills.
> 
> This is somewhat different from the Great Lakes where I imagine someone with my modest skills could very easily get into a bad situation if the weather turned ugly.


Spot on. Been on both, in pretty bad weather, and the Lakes can be worse (hurricanes excepted). Waves break earlier and their shape is steeper. The weather is also more unpredictable- especially early and late in the season.
Think "Ocean" without the salt.


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## johnshasteen (Aug 9, 2002)

RainDog said:


> John - I am currently at Seabrook Shipyard on the Q dock. I am seriously considering moving to Bahia once I finish my refit. I would love to hear your thoughts on the area.


RainD, the Corpus area is good sailing - Corpus Christi Bay is deep and the wind is always blowing Sometimes it creates nasty chop - like the much shallower Galveston Bay. Bahia Marina is a nice little marina with lots of friendly people and fairly easy access to the Bay and not a long slog to the Gulf. Here's a link to their website: Bahia Marina & Docks Store - Ingleside, TX- Home Page
We are probably going to move Paloma up to Freeport sometime in the next few months - closer to home (we live in Houston). I'll let you know when and you may want to go along on the short overnight sail from Corpus up to Freeport (it's only about 150 miles). Smack Daddy aka Steve will probably come as well. And of course, we can always help you sail your baby down to Corpus when the time comes as well.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Well. I've now seen 40 knots plus in squalls 700 miles offshore in the Atlantic, and I've seen 40 knots plus in squalls on Lake Ontario, 700 metres away from the shoreline.

All in all, I preferred the Atlantic. While there was spray and 15 foot waves at maybe 80-100 feet apart, they didn't break and you could ride them. You had to steer actively because the wind vane got blanketed from aft. On Lake Ontario, the waves got to eight feet, but they were less than a boat length apart, sheer-fronted and chaotic. The boat motion is more severe, in my view. Of course, it can get much stronger at sea for longer, but this was what I experienced...the difference given similar wind and weather.

The squalls lasted about 20 minutes to half an hour on both bodies of water, but the wind stayed fresher much longer (and the waves took longer to decrease) on the ocean. A squall passes on the Great Lakes and you can have either bigger air or a light breeze behind it, but the "seas" don't persist like on the real ocean.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

From your blog entry - this statement is definitely a big difference between lakes (at least ours) and oceans...

_"One thing that didn't change was our tack: thanks to the wind wheeling around with our course, we were on more or less the same point of sail and tack for many days."_

SAME TACK FOR MANY DAYS???? Man that sounds sweet.


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## captbillc (Jul 31, 2008)

valiente----- up here on lake superior we can get strong NE winds for days & waves 15ft or better. a foreign ocean going ship was at anchor a few years ago when a northeaster caught him. he dragged anchor & ended up side ways on the beach with the waves crashing over the deck, & the spray was going over the bridge. he as lucky that the beach was sand. after the storm was over it took 4 big tugs to get him swung around & pulled free. this was the barrier that forms the duluth harbor


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## SoftJazz (Aug 31, 2009)

JohnShasteen, I'll be on Captiva Island off of Florida. I'm meeting a girlfriend of mine & we'll be doing the Performance Race Week there. 

It's precisely the confined conditions & the lack of depth that causes so much of a mess on the Great Lakes. Erie, where I sail, kicks up in no time & flattens out in no time. But while it's kicking up, you get wave upon wave with little time between them. If you can't handle dinner, you could be in trouble. In big winds your boat will get slammed around, no matter how you handle it. Lake Ontario gets rollers, though. I'm hoping to get a chance to sail there next season.


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## MarioG (Sep 6, 2009)

I can't wait to show the 1st mate this thread. I started on Lake Ontario and remember being beaten by the constaint waves and thought how nice it would have been just to ride them a little longer, can't wait to get on the big pond.


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## cormeum (Aug 17, 2009)

SoftJazz said:


> JohnShasteen, I'll be on Captiva Island off of Florida. I'm meeting a girlfriend of mine & we'll be doing the Performance Race Week there.
> 
> It's precisely the confined conditions & the lack of depth that causes so much of a mess on the Great Lakes. Erie, where I sail, kicks up in no time & flattens out in no time. But while it's kicking up, you get wave upon wave with little time between them. If you can't handle dinner, you could be in trouble. In big winds your boat will get slammed around, no matter how you handle it. Lake Ontario gets rollers, though. I'm hoping to get a chance to sail there next season.


Looking for rollers? Try Michigan with a good north breeze


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

Great Lakes ship wreaks on the Science channel now!


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## Maverick1958 (Nov 30, 2009)

Hey fish need to eat too!


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## dman (Dec 25, 2004)

YouTube - ROGUE WAVES 100 FOOT HIGH FINALLY DOCUMENTED

After a noreaster i have seen 40 foot shipping containers come into port smashed flat and they were 70 feet above the waterline.If you ever get caught in one hang on.


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## johnshasteen (Aug 9, 2002)

To close out this thread:
Lakes and oceans are apples and oranges. Nothing is the same, beyond the fact that they both are filled with water - albeit fresh and salt.


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