# Small (<20') Pocket Cruiser Cat?



## Red CFJ Sailor (Apr 7, 2013)

Hi all!

First of all, I'm fairly new to the forums, and I wanted to thank everyone for the help RE: gear on my old FJ. She's a great boat, and I've been having a blast sailing her. Went out solo in 15-20kt and white capping on a large lake, flew the main only, and saw some serious speed out of the old girl. So much fun!

Looking forward though, I'm beginning to think it's not the most practical of vessels, not that I ever thought it was to begin with.....

I see myself getting into some weekend cruising, but my girlfriend doesn't like hiking out like I do, and to be honest, the FJ likes to roll pretty easily, and it gets a bit sketchy at times. I still want the speed, if not more, but stable/flat, comfortable, and easy to sail solo (the lady loves to sail, but not crew... she just likes to be ballast, which is fine with me!)

I've been absolutely taken by catamarans lately, but there doesn't seem to be too many pocket cruiser varieties. I'm a trailer sailor at heart, and want something easy to tow, but has all the facilities to have a relaxing, fun, and fast weekend on the water. 

Here's what I've come up with:

ECO6 (not fond of the rig though)
(can't post link yet)

Gato Especial 

What do you guys think?


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## FlyingJunior (May 31, 2012)

*Small (<20') Pocket Cruiser Cat?*

I'm kinda in the same boat (no pun intended) - have you considered more stable dinghys such as Flying Scot, Mariner, Rhodes 19, or O'Day Daysailer?


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Interesting.. these homebuilt kit- type scenarios? Certainly fits the trailerable need, and both are kinda cute.... The ECOs rig would probably be much quicker to set up.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Google "Miss Cindy," a proven small cat cruiser. Jeff Gilbert has some interesting small stuff- hot chili comes to mind. If you are willing to stretch your dimensions just slightly, a Jarcat5 or 6 is a quickish simple build.


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## Red CFJ Sailor (Apr 7, 2013)

*Re: Small (<20') Pocket Cruiser Cat?*



FlyingJunior said:


> I'm kinda in the same boat (no pun intended) - have you considered more stable dinghys such as Flying Scot, Mariner, Rhodes 19, or O'Day Daysailer?


It's funny you mention that... Before deciding on my FJ, I was considering all of the above. I love Daysailers, and Flying Scots even more.

I think I just want to try a cat though. Not a 'let's fly a hull 4ft out of the air' Hobie, but something that keeps both in the water, and therefore, flat. I've just always thought cats have a really unique look to them, and I like to do things differently.

More deck/cabin space of the cats are pretty appealing too.


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## Red CFJ Sailor (Apr 7, 2013)

Faster: Thanks for posting the pictures! 
From what I've read, that rig on the ECO is much cheaper to build, and supposedly pretty efficient??? I'd love to see real pictures of these little guys floating around, but can't really find too much. Still though, as superficial as it sounds, I just think the ECO's rig is a bit ugly. I like the Gato's looks a bit better, but the size of the ECO. 

bljones: Thanks for the suggestions! 
I've read a bit about Miss Cindy, and it's quite impressive. He's braver than I am! But very neat seeing a small cat being practical enough (marginally) for some serious travel/some blue water or coastal cruising. That's exactly what I'm looking towards doing, although I'll primarily be on medium-sized lakes.
I'll be sure to look in to the others!


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## CaribDream (Jan 29, 2013)

Red CFJ Sailor:1024697 said:


> Hi all!
> 
> I see myself getting into some weekend cruising, but my girlfriend doesn't like hiking out like I do, and to be honest, the FJ likes to roll pretty easily, and it gets a bit sketchy at times. I still want the speed, if not more, but stable/flat, comfortable, and easy to sail solo (the lady loves to sail, but not crew... she just likes to be ballast, which is fine with me!)


I have a similar situation. My wife wants to sail, and is willing to crew, but hiking out and getting spilled into the drink is not her gig. Because of a few reasons we are limited to small trailer sailers for day sailing. We chose an American 14.6 for it's stability and comfort. Hopefully it was the right choice for us. I could have had a used pocket cruiser for less money, but quick and easy rigging was also a priority.

Good luck on your hunt. I'm glad I'm not the only one looking for the "relaxed" ride for the other half


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## Red CFJ Sailor (Apr 7, 2013)

CaribDream said:


> I have a similar situation. My wife wants to sail, and is willing to crew, but hiking out and getting spilled into the drink is not her gig. Because of a few reasons we are limited to small trailer sailers for day sailing. We chose an American 14.6 for it's stability and comfort. Hopefully it was the right choice for us. I could have had a used pocket cruiser for less money, but quick and easy rigging was also a priority.
> 
> Good luck on your hunt. I'm glad I'm not the only one looking for the "relaxed" ride for the other half


That American looks like quite a nice craft!
I think you should be quite happy with that vessel, as it looks like a great daysailer with an easy rig.
It might just be me, but it looks a little bit like an FJ.... 

I think you and I are looking for much the same thing for similar reasons. I'm not only looking for a 'relaxed' ride for the SO, but for myself too haha. I get a bit nervous when I start hiking out really far and the waterline moves up to the deck on the low side.

Like you, I also want something that's quick to rig and lives on a trailer. Seeing as I'll be on the lakes most of the time, I don't want to spend all morning/evening on the ramp rigging for just a few hours of fun.

I've decided on a cat for sure, as I just like a twin hull for looks, lack of any roll, and speed. Just which one..... Although the JARCATs look great, they look hard to find in the US.

Anyone have any other thoughts?
What about any manufactured small cats?


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

how about....

2003 Shell boats Crab claw catamaran sailboat for sale in Washington










The jarcat is a superior boat, but you are right, hard to find in the US- so, build one- the cost is lower than you might think, it is not a difficult build, and therte is a lot of support from a good owner's group.


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

Love that boat. it has a silent motor as long a you are the motor. don't ask the wife to be the motor or you will never hear the end of the motor noise


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## Red CFJ Sailor (Apr 7, 2013)

Those crab boats are really interesting for sure. And I kinda even like the cabin, which, if you tilt your head the right way, ALMOST looks like a little Lagoon. I think they're a bit 'old' for my tastes though :/

Along the lines of building....
I don't have much (if any) time to pound out a boat in the back yard, as I'm a recent grad/new career person of 23. Plus, I would worry about my lack of building skills. Seeing as how there don't seem to be any manufactured fast pocket cruiser cats, would anyone have any clues as to how much it would cost to have an ECO6 or JARCAT professionally built?

I have no idea at all, just throwing out some possibilities


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

call it 1500-2000 hours of labour...at no less than $40/hr for a acceptably competent boatbuilder, or $20/hr for some guy who likes to build boats and builds them as a side job.

Jarcat build materials cost/labour time was recently covered on the jarcat yahoo list:

A builder wrote:
"I Launched this boat in 2005!

so material prices are as of 2003!
I hope this helps.
We Sail in the ocean near Santa Cruz California and like our boat a lot.



Total hours 2,063.08	





-	






EXPENSES 
$719.00 9 sheets 6mm okume ply 
$35.00 1 sheet 19mm acx fir ply 
$160.00	1*? Dem. Mahog. 
14 sheets 4mm okume 
$22.00	200 ea #6*3/4" ss self tap screws	
$116.00	2000 #8*3/4" ss auger screws	
$265.00	53 bd ft clear fir stringer stock	
$80.00	part A 5:1 epoxy. And gloves	
$98.00 fir minikeel stock 
$537.00	114 yards 4oz "S"glass 
$38.00	1 qt. interlux primer 
$50.00	25lbs tite nox 
$272.00	3*3*1.25" steel for trailer 
$160.00	trailer ply, joists, screws, & glue	
$65.00	1 ea gallon 5:1 part A epoxy 
$141.00	1 ea gallon kit WEST SYSTEM 5:1 part A & B epoxy 
$124.00	2 gallon kit btm pool paint 
$90.00	1 gallon interlux primer 1.00
$20.00	roller pan & rollers 2.00
$20.00	masking tape 3.00
$28.64	screws 4.00
$55.71	Cabosil, 2" glass tape 5.00
$51.10	screws 6.00
$56.08	sand, & paint stuff 7.00
$161.00	1 gallon brightside white 8.00
$56.00	1 qt international orange 9.00
$39.00	1qt bristol beige 10.00
$44.00	2qt flatner 
$18.00	6 roller cvrs.& 
$12.00	5 rolls blue mask tape 
$150.00	1 ea gallon kit WEST SYSTEM 5:1 part A & B epoxy
$102.00	3lbs ea 7/8" & 3/4" brinze ring nails	
$200.00	1 gallon epoxy kit, cabo, ballons,404 filler
$20.00	acetone 
$91.00	1 gallon part A 5:1 gougone epoxy	
$86.00	4 tubes 3M 5200 
$22.00	1 tube mahog 5200 
$150.00	1 ea gallon kit WEST SYSTEM 5:1 part A & B epoxy
$25.00	1ea 2"* 25yd glass tape 
$25.00	1ea 3"* 25yd glass tape 
$50.00	4ea teflon strips hatch bearings	
$40.00	1 qt slow part B 
sub total 6/26/08 $4,494.53 
$275.00	2'*8' lexan bronze 
$75.00	barrel nuts( for windows) 
$50.00	2",& 3" glass tape 
$50.00	21' X 3" teflon tape for hatches	
$90.00	1 gallon part A 5:1 gougone epoxy	
$90.00	1gallon interlux primer 
$39.00	6 deck cleats 
$30.00	2 SS head stay pad eyes 
$67.00	2 qts interdeck non skid paint	
sub total $24.00	2ea. Boxes nitril gloves 
$20.00	sand paper, & saber saw blades	
$15.00	14 day tape & paint thinner	
$105.00	Shroud wire kit 
$236.00	diomond wires, & mast tiller	
$64.00	jib halyard shive, shroud upper schackle
$70.00	4ea fwd bridle schackles, 4ea 5/32 nicro sleevs
2 ea. 1/4" thimbles 
$400.00	new hodges jib 
$1,000.00	new Santa Cruz sails main	
$1,500.00	Torqeedo electric outboard motor	
Total as launching $8,694.53	"

So, the upside is, the material cost is low for a 20' pocket cruiser. the downside is that it takes time.

I understand where you are coming from about not having the skills. One only gains the skills by doing. Once you get started, you might be surprised how undifficult it actually is. 

or just keep your eyes open for a clapped out wharram tiki and buy a tent to put up on the bridgedeck. Boom- cheap pocket cruiser.


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## Red CFJ Sailor (Apr 7, 2013)

bljones said:


> So, the upside is, the material cost is low for a 20' pocket cruiser. the downside is that it takes time.
> 
> I understand where you are coming from about not having the skills. One only gains the skills by doing. Once you get started, you might be surprised how undifficult it actually is.
> 
> or just keep your eyes open for a clapped out wharram tiki and buy a tent to put up on the bridgedeck. Boom- cheap pocket cruiser.


Bravo on the numbers, good sir! 
That's a very helpful find, and really good to see it all laid out so logically. Thank you for the research and help!

Looking at it, even if I were to pay someone to build it, ~$15k for the 'perfect' brand-new boat that meets all needs and can be custom built is acceptable. Can I afford it? More than likely not, but it's a valid option for sure, especially since no manufacturers really seem to be in this segment.

I agree with you completely about acquiring the skills through doing it. I guess I'm a bit scared. When it comes to cosmetics and attaching things, I'm not concerned. The actual structural bits are what concern me, and I've never worked with wood. And that's quite a lot of time, considering sailing (unfortunately) isn't my only hobby.

I haven't given up though....
This is just a start, and I'm curious what else can be found, because these are all great ideas and facts.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Start here:

Building the Jarcat 6 trailerable catamaran


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## Red CFJ Sailor (Apr 7, 2013)

haha it's funny you mention that journal.... I actually read it last night 

I think a Jarcat might be a bit more than I can chew at this point (from a building standpoint).

In regards to the ECO (5.5 version), the site says expect around 300 hours construction time for a newbie. Does that sound remotely reasonable to you? It sounds low to me, but if it's true/cheap, I can see myself going that route.

In my dreams, I wish I could just design my own, but I definitely don't have the naval engineering smarts to make a proper design.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

regarding the ECOs...Bernd is very nice guy with great ideas and fantastic designs...
which a handful have built or are building.

meanwhile, the jarcat is a proven design with a proven history.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

If I failed to make my point in the last post:
Wharram; easiest.
Jarcat: easier
Kohler... er, not easy at all.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

RedCF, you are really overthinking this. 
if you have$10 000 real money, but a Shell Crab claw.
If you have under $10k real money, buy a built Wharram tiki 21, or 26 or whatever.
Any boat wil require work, especially in the bottom-feeder price range. That's cool-we can give you advice.
If you have $5k right now and the time to buy the tools and the materials, build a boat.


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## Red CFJ Sailor (Apr 7, 2013)

Very interesting.... 

Based on the jarcat build journal and the CAD pictures of the Eco designs, I would've thought the Eco would be easier to build. But then again, I know exactly nothing about building boats


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## Red CFJ Sailor (Apr 7, 2013)

Sorry to waste your time. 

Just wanted to explore options in what is a seemingly bare category, since others seem to share the needs I have. 

But, as this apparently isn't just a friendly discussion about design ideas and what we want in a boat, I'll just end it here and say thank you for your input and excellent advice, but I won't waste your time with this subject further.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

no sailor has ever reached his destination by being passive/aggressive and snubbing those who answer the questions he/she asks.


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## Red CFJ Sailor (Apr 7, 2013)

Passive/aggressive?
Snubbing you?

You told me to quit wasting your (and apparently everyone else's) time....
So I did. I graciously thanked you many occasions for helping gather highly valuable information that I would've had no experience with, and bowed out when you told me to quit 'jerking everyone's chain', even though I never stated a timeline for making the move.

This was never intended to be a 'Hey, I'm building a boat next month' thread. From the start, I stated what I was looking for in a fun boat as something to plan for, because that's what I do. I don't jump into something. 

This was only meant to be a discussion of available designs, which I was unfamiliar with, as it's a bare segment, and something that I thought would be curious to explore. Others seemed to think so, as well.


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## FlyingJunior (May 31, 2012)

*Small (<20') Pocket Cruiser Cat?*

Me: hey, catamarans seem cool!
Old Salt: If you like sailing a dump truck.

They don't sail to windward, I am told. It's common to have to motor thru tacks.

RedCFJ - you're fine, people need to ease up. If they are annoyed by the thread, they can ignore or unsubscribe. You've been a gentleman.


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## Red CFJ Sailor (Apr 7, 2013)

Thank you, Flying Junior 
And I assume fellow FJ owner?

I always intend to have a friendly conversation with individuals interested in the same topics as I, especially when I'm the newbie asking questions and receiving mountains of knowledge from you guys. 

That's a good point you bring up. 
I've also seen many comments regarding the windward sailing ability and difficulty of tacks, something I don't quite experience in the FJ. Would that be because of having the length of two hulls to pivot through a tack? It just seems like a lot of required force. 

I'm also curious at the speed differential between a non-flying small cat and a similar mono.... I've seen where you're lucky to get 4-5kt in something like a Potter, which is the closest competitor I can think of in terms of stability and accommodations.


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## TropicCat (Oct 14, 2008)

*Re: Small (<20') Pocket Cruiser Cat?*



FlyingJunior said:


> Me: hey, catamarans seem cool!
> Old Salt: If you like sailing a dump truck.
> 
> They don't sail to windward, I am told. It's common to have to motor thru tacks.....


Now who told you that?

Catamarans come in different flavors so to speak. Some go to weather just like the majority of monohulls and some are condomarans. The statement that Catamarans don't go to weather is just a wives tale told by folks who have never been on one or never learned to sail a catamaran.

What catamarans lack is that certain 'feel' of being in the groove with a light monohull. However, what you receive in return certainly outweighs what you lose by upgrading to 2 hulls.

Just sayin...


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## TropicCat (Oct 14, 2008)

Red CFJ Sailor said:


> Thank you, Flying Junior
> And I assume fellow FJ owner?
> 
> I always intend to have a friendly conversation with individuals interested in the same topics as I, especially when I'm the newbie asking questions and receiving mountains of knowledge from you guys.
> ...


Monohulls have a bunch of weight in their keel which is beneficial during tacks when the sails stop pulling and the keel weight carries the boat through to the opposite tack due to momentum.

You need more skills to tack a catamaran because of the lack of ballast. Think about it. If the keel momentum is missing, the only thing that will carry a catamaran through a tack is speed. This takes practice to get it right.

Although sailing is sailing .... catamarans require a subset of skills, just as you'd have to learn how to sail a Ketch or a Schooner.


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## Red CFJ Sailor (Apr 7, 2013)

TropicCat said:


> Monohulls have a bunch of weight in their keel which is beneficial during tacks when the sails stop pulling and the keel weight carries the boat through to the opposite tack due to momentum.
> 
> You need more skills to tack a catamaran because of the lack of ballast. Think about it. If the keel momentum is missing, the only thing that will carry a catamaran through a tack is speed. This takes practice to get it right.
> 
> Although sailing is sailing .... catamarans require a subset of skills, just as you'd have to learn how to sail a Ketch or a Schooner.


Ahhhhh I see..... That makes a lot of sense! 

I've not (yet) sailed a keel boat with ballast of any kind, so maybe a catamaran wouldn't be so different in a tack for me? I basically just carry a ton of speed into the tack, and kinda sorta not really do a little roll tack to get through it quickly. While you obviously can't roll tack a catamaran, I'd assume the other techniques are similar?

Either way, it sounds like my cup of tea 
I just want to learn as much as I can and get comfortable on a variety of things.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Red, you're absolutely right. my response did not come out the way i intended. Sorry about that.


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## FlyingJunior (May 31, 2012)

*Small (<20') Pocket Cruiser Cat?*

I did not realize it was keel weight that enabled my centerboard dinghy to cruise thru tacks like a hot knife thru butter. Something about the centerboard acting as a pivot point comes to mind. Cats do not have this pivot point.


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## TropicCat (Oct 14, 2008)

*Re: Small (<20') Pocket Cruiser Cat?*



FlyingJunior said:


> I did not realize it was keel weight that enabled my centerboard dinghy to cruise thru tacks like a hot knife thru butter. Something about the centerboard acting as a pivot point comes to mind. Cats do not have this pivot point.


Son, we're talkin cruising boats here. However, learning on a sailing dinghy isn't a bad way to get ready for catamaran sailing where tacks are concerned. However, it's the other stuff unique to catamarans that dinghies are of no help preparing you.

I sail both kinds of boats. My favorite monohull would be a Downeaster 38', or for a day sail, a Cape Dory 28. Both different, yet full keel boats, and both point pretty well. The boom can be a deck sweeper on the Downeaster but she sails sweet and true. In April of this year, I sailed that Downeaster for a week in the tropics. Nice..

However, I prefer catamarans, and have owned a cruising catamaran for 8 going on 9 years now, and have sailed on more cruising catamarans than most people. (Would love a Richard Woods "Transit 38' for my next boat) Once you learn how to sail a catamaran, there's simply no going back ... except for fun or to remind yourself why you moved on up to 2 hulls.

Oh, and the Catamaran cruising guy will be easy to point out. He's the one with the pretty women lining up to spend time on his boat.... just sayin...


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## FlyingJunior (May 31, 2012)

*Small (<20') Pocket Cruiser Cat?*

I will defer to you Tropicat, you are way more experienced. I was just recalling my conversation with the Old Salt, who has sailed the globe.

My own experience (limited) is in the BVI, where its the cats that are motorsailing. You are probably right about the chicks, however. Interesting though - I know another group that has chartered both monos and cats in the BVI, and the majority of the non-sailors in the group preferred sailing in the mono. I'm sure they preferred accommodations in the cat better, however, I will admit I would.

I don't know the cats being discussed here, so missed the cruising part. Big move from an FJ to a cruising cat.

If its the significant other and nerves - I'd say consider 22' keelboats. Lots more around, cheap, stable. I've found once they are convinced that its likely not gonna capsize they enjoy it much more.


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## Red CFJ Sailor (Apr 7, 2013)

*Re: Small (<20') Pocket Cruiser Cat?*



TropicCat said:


> Son, we're talkin cruising boats here. However, learning on a sailing dinghy isn't a bad way to get ready for catamaran sailing where tacks are concerned. However, it's the other stuff unique to catamarans that dinghies are of no help preparing you.
> 
> I sail both kinds of boats. My favorite monohull would be a Downeaster 38', or for a day sail, a Cape Dory 28. Both different, yet full keel boats, and both point pretty well. The boom can be a deck sweeper on the Downeaster but she sails sweet and true. In April of this year, I sailed that Downeaster for a week in the tropics. Nice..
> 
> ...


Very interesting logic, although I certainly don't argue with the performance characteristics of the catamarans.

When it comes to dinks vs. cruisers, I have much to learn, so I'm trying to soak it all up the best I can. I can truthfully say I haven't spent any time on either catamarans or keelboats, but I'm anxious to see what the dark sides of ballast weight on monos and the sheer interest of two-hulled things. Someday....

However, if I had a dream catamaran cruiser, I'd go with a Lagoon or, better, Gunboat 
Being in a nearly 50yr old FJ, I've got a long ways to go, but I'm having a ball each second I'm on the water or learning something in here.


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## TropicCat (Oct 14, 2008)

*Re: Small (<20') Pocket Cruiser Cat?*



Red CFJ Sailor said:


> ...However, if I had a dream catamaran cruiser, I'd go with a Lagoon or, better, Gunboat
> Being in a nearly 50yr old FJ, I've got a long ways to go, but I'm having a ball each second I'm on the water or learning something in here.


I know I've written this before, but it bears repeating,

At 20 years old I loved the feel of a tiller in my hand of a boat designed to point as high as possible.

In my 30s I noticed my wife wasn't as appreciative as I was of this point of sail..

In my 40's, I couldn't get a lady on the boat to save my life.

In my 50's I bought a catamaran. The Lady loves it and at 40 lbs heavier than I was in my youth, I am no longer appreciative of beating my brains (and my butt) going to weather either.

In my 60's, I now have my eye out for a bigger catamaran.

So, It depends where you are in life and your point of view (Pun intended)


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## Red CFJ Sailor (Apr 7, 2013)

TropicCat,

I think you've said it perfectly.
That takes us back to the whole reason this thread came to mind in the first place.

Even though I'm only in my 20's, it seems apparent, regardless of age, that some people just want the extra room, stability, and (in my case) speed that a catamaran will usually afford. It isn't even about keeping the ladies happy, either. After an afternoon of constantly being hiked out and on the verge of capsizing, I'm worn out physically and mentally. While thrilling, it doesn't lend to those 'relaxing' times unless I have a total of 4kt of wind, and anything above I sure don't feel like taking someone out with me and subjecting them to the same.

Unfortunately, it seems this category is thoroughly lacking support from manufacturers. I can kinda see why, as I'm sure the construction is much more tedious. And then there are those of us (me?) who might not want to spend years building our own.

Perhaps a ballasted mono is the only answer?
I hate to say it, but a $3000 20' cabin mono can be easily found, but no such luck on a cat front


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Red, where do you sail ?


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## Smier (Nov 14, 2012)

Any other good links to a finished jarcat or othe trailerable cat build? You guys really have me interested now...


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

I am sort of digging where this guy is coming from:






It's too short and too narrow for my purposes, but I like the basic concept.


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## Red CFJ Sailor (Apr 7, 2013)

bljones said:


> Red, where do you sail ?


I'm down in North Carolina, sailing anywhere I can!
It's either dead calm or 15+ kt, but I also go down to Georgia every now and then and sail there as well. Much better there!


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## Red CFJ Sailor (Apr 7, 2013)

bljones said:


> I am sort of digging where this guy is coming from:
> 
> It's too short and too narrow for my purposes, but I like the basic concept.


NOW that looks fun!


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

This is in NJ: http://sailingtexas.com/201301/swharramtiki21101.html


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## Smier (Nov 14, 2012)

Nice video bljones, too small for my liking also. I really like this one though:

http://www.wallerdesign.com.au/photo_wal880.html

It's too big for the original poster, but I really like it!

Check out this video on YouTube:


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