# Cal20 v C&C24 v Grampian 23



## PaulinVictoria (Aug 23, 2009)

Thoughts on the above three boats? The Cal and Grampian are similar prices, the C&C is a couple of thousand more.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

The C&C 24 (assuming the "niagara" model - no relationship to the Niagara line) is a nice boat, fairly beamy and decent volume for it's size, and typical of C&Cs of that era (is it yellow, by any chance?)

Not familiar with the G23 specifically but I know the G26 sails well and has good interior space. Pretty rugged boats as a rule so I'd expect the 23 to be along the same lines. Generally not the prettiest girls at the dance (IMO)

Either of the above are going to give you a lot more boat than the Cal 20 - both volume and performance-wise - but a higher moorage bill too. No denying the Cal's history and robustness, plus you get the benefit of a strong class and lots of support/owners around.

I think the C&C would be the better choice, all other issues (exc price) being equal


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

For good reason... Of the three the C&C is probably the best one to get, but it really depends on your usage.


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## PaulinVictoria (Aug 23, 2009)

Here's the ads:
GRAMPION SAILBOAT MUST SELL!! Esquimalt & View Royal, Victoria
Cal 20 For Sale
1979 C&C 24

There's also a quite nice looking San Juan 24 which I could probably get for the same money as the C&C.


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## PaulinVictoria (Aug 23, 2009)

And to throw something different into the mix, just about in budget if I can knock quite a bit off 1981 EDEL 665, 22' - Winner of "Boat of the Year" - $7,250 (TRY YOUR OFFER!) Oak Bay, Victoria


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

The C&C may have no holding tank, judging by the description. I am always wary of no pics in an ad. The Cal 20 comes with a dinghy and is the cheapest.
A former freshwater C&C is a good choice and the price is right, but i think the Cal represents better value. You can't really lose anything at that price, and reading between the lines, your budget would purchase the C&C, but you would have no money left for repairs and upgrades, right?

Edels and gramp 23s are boats that have never appealed to me- they are just goofy looking boats, accidentally ugly. Now, a Tanzer or a cal? They are ugly on purpose! flush deck = more interior space.


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## PaulinVictoria (Aug 23, 2009)

The C&C owner sent me a couple of photos, and I've seen it in the flesh (from underneath anyway) too. It's been sat over winter and the owner is there over the next few days de-winterising it and giving it a lick of paint so hopefully will brush up nicely. It's certainly at the top end of the budget (not that there's a set budget as such) so wouldn't be anything in the kitty short-term, but then it's my first boat and don't really have any plans to upgrade it so as long as it's solid then it's fine.
The Cal is certainly going to be the cheapest to buy and run, I'm just worried that I'll outgrow it too quickly and next season will already be looking to replace it. Could happen with any boat though I guess. The Gramp, well, she isn't pretty. but they have good reputations for build quality and it looks like the owner has taken good care of it.
The Edel looks OK in the flesh, price is out of the budget at the moment, but then it is absolutely loaded with new or almost new kit.
Ideally I'd like something like a Tanzer 22, built like a tank, good below decks and a massive cockpit (which is where I'd be spending most of the time anyway), but there's none for sale round here.
Oh I don't know, will probably end up having to spend the money on something else anyway but a man can dream.

Of course this is all mostly as a result of the skipper of the race boat having a change of plans/lifestyle so no longer going out on it. I'm forgetting what water is like!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Just curious, how does a flush deck, with no doghouse, equal more interior space????



bljones said:


> The C&C may have no holding tank, judging by the description. I am always wary of no pics in an ad. The Cal 20 comes with a dinghy and is the cheapest.
> A former freshwater C&C is a good choice and the price is right, but i think the Cal represents better value. You can't really lose anything at that price, and reading between the lines, your budget would purchase the C&C, but you would have no money left for repairs and upgrades, right?
> 
> Edels and gramp 23s are boats that have never appealed to me- they are just goofy looking boats, accidentally ugly. Now, a Tanzer or a cal? They are ugly on purpose! *flush deck = more interior space*.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

PaulinVictoria said:


> There's also a quite nice looking San Juan 24 which I could probably get for the same money as the C&C.


Paul
The SJ24 is a decent boat but the cockpit's quite narrow, the coamings narrow too and as a result there's not a really comfortable hiking position that you can steer from.

The C&C would be much better ergonomically.


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## PaulinVictoria (Aug 23, 2009)

Yep, it's a nice looking boat but maybe a bit too race focussed, I hear they can be a bit of a handful downwind?
I think it'll probably be between the C&C and the Cal, but will go take a look at the Gramp just because I reckon it never does any harm to look at boats. A lot cheaper than buying them, that's for sure.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

sailingdog said:


> Just curious, how does a flush deck, with no doghouse, equal more interior space????


Perhaps I should have said raised flush deck? Compare interior volume of a tanzer 22 to a catalina 22, or a venture 22, or similar and you'll see what i mean- consistent headroom from gunwale to gunwale. They aint' pretty, and it can be a pain in the neck to climb around or over a dodger to go forward, but especially on small boats the extra cabin width not lost to deck space makes things a lot less claustrophobic.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Oh, yes, I can see that making the cabin larger...but most of the flush deck boats I'm used to are not raised at all..and quite claustrophobic..



bljones said:


> Perhaps I should have said raised flush deck? Compare interior volume of a tanzer 22 to a catalina 22, or a venture 22, or similar and you'll see what i mean- consistent headroom from gunwale to gunwale. They aint' pretty, and it can be a pain in the neck to climb around or over a dodger to go forward, but especially on small boats the extra cabin width not lost to deck space makes things a lot less claustrophobic.


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## PaulinVictoria (Aug 23, 2009)

So... went to look at the Cal and the C&C today. The Cal was a typical Cal really, bit scruffy, old deck hardware (quite a few seized bearings in the tackles) but otherwise solid, not really suitable for more than daysailing and perhaps a single overnight. Just having a coat of new bottom paint and I am hopefully going for a sail on it tomorrow afternoon.
The C&C was enormous by comparison, in generally nice condition, reasonable deck hardware but a couple of soft spots on the foredeck. Inside was nice, bit damp after being sat all winter and an inch or two of water in the bilge. Quite surprised by the amount of room in the cabin, definitely capable of a few days cruising with just the two of us. Should be a bit easier to sail single/shorthanded too as all the lines are lead into the cockpit. She's also getting a fresh coat of bottom paint.
Wife thinks we should get the Cal as it's cheaper to buy, cheaper to buy bits for and cheaper to moor. I think I would outgrow it within a year and be wanting something a bit bigger but can't argue with the price, and shouldn't loose anything on it.
Don't really know what to do, both are viable.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

PaulinVictoria said:


> ....Don't really know what to do, both are viable.


If your wife is enthusiastic, chances are you'll be looking at C&Cs again by next year... So if the "stepping stone" aspect of the Cal appeals just keep in mind that it may well be short term.

If you think overall you'll save some money, some angst, and have an even better first year by buying the larger boat now, consider that. As you say, both are viable.

I think you know what I'd advise  ...


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Get the C&C... it's a much more comfortable boat and you're far less likely to outgrow it quickly.


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## PaulinVictoria (Aug 23, 2009)

Is the soft spot in the deck something to be very concerned about? I guess it was about 4 inches across. What about the water in the bilge? Boat has been on the hard all winter.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Any older boat is likely to have some issues. What you describe, if indeed that's the extent, sounds minor. The water in the bilge likely came from a leaky window, or deck fitting, also not an uncommon problem in an older used boat. However if there was a couple of inches of water over the cabin sole, that's more worrisome. 

These things are repairable, mostly DIY if you're at all handy.

All that said, there are other boats out there too, so if this particular C&C is not the better candidate, then perhaps look further once you have a firm idea of what the two of you really want.


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## PaulinVictoria (Aug 23, 2009)

Hoping to try and get out on the C&C before the owners flies back south again. Assuming that goes well, I'm going to lowball him and see how it works out 
I have a number in mind, let's hope it's not too far off the number he has in mind, besides, moorage will be due April 1st so I suspect he'll be extra motivated.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

PaulinVictoria said:


> Hoping to try and get out on the C&C before the owners flies back south again. Assuming that goes well, I'm going to lowball him and see how it works out


Best of luck! Keep us posted


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## PaulinVictoria (Aug 23, 2009)

Well, the boat is actually in the water now at least. Just had a fresh coat on its bottom and I finally managed to get the Admiral on board to have a look at the inside. A thumbs up from SWMBO, I think she finally realised the difference between 20 and 24ft!
I haven't actually been out for a sail on her yet though, the owner is flying back down to the US in the morning and won't be back for a week or two. Anyway, he wants me to essentially put a contract in place to buy it, subject to inspection and a sea test. Since I haven't even put an offer on the table yet, what is the normal way to do it? I was going to offer something rather lower than his asking price, with a bit of wriggle room to go up a bit if necessary and then confirm it with the sea trial (can't see it's worth getting a surveyor involved at this end of the market). I haven't exactly bought a lot of boats before, but I've bought cars and normally the sequence of events is have a look, go for a drive, give them an offer.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Boats are a bit different. The normal thing is to have an accepted offer subject to satisfactory sea trial and survey in place before anything really happens (certainly at a brokerage this would be the case). Private sales are another thing and they may go differently, but as a seller I'd still want to see some good faith money before taking someone out for a sail (mainly to avoid fender-kicking looky-loos that just want a free sail)

This is one area where a broker smooths thing..they provide at the least a neutral place to hold the deposit while the deal progresses, and can facilitate renegotiations without things getting personal.

As for a survey.... It's still recommended unless you feel you wouldn't be bothered to throw away $5k. The $400-600 involved is almost always recovered in a renegotiated price for the problems found. Should you end up with a boat with major problems, not only might you essentially be "out" your initial investment, getting rid of such a boat is difficult and might cost you more. (Worst case scenario, of course). If it turns out that the boat is pristine and has no issues, then you've got a lot of peace of mind for the future.

If your seller is willing to proceed on an agreement for sale contract and you get a good vibe from him, carry on with eyes wide open. Try for a minimal deposit in case things go seriously south and recovery becomes an issue.

Good Luck!


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## PaulinVictoria (Aug 23, 2009)

Ah OK, I see. So I will give him my offer and we then agree on a price, which can then change according to the results of the survey and trial.
So leading on from that, can anyone recommend a good surveyor in/near Sidney, I can see how they might pay for themselves. Is an in-water survey going to be sufficient, any idea on cost on a 24ft C&C?


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

This fellow is always well recommended, not sure if he's still working. He is very thorough and no BS. (it's said sellers shudder if they hear his name! )

Kenneth W. Rorison Marine, 250-655-3425, krorison at shaw dot ca

He might be on the pricey side, so check around if you like, but you may get what you pay for....

An in-water survey is really not ideal for a purchase survey. What's going on out of sight are some of the most important issues to investigate. So you do need to add the cost of a haulout unless there's an elevator accessible. Usually a 'half lift' is possible - ie they leave the boat in the slings over lunch to allow an underbody inspection, then splash the boat for the remainder of the survey. A pressure wash is really needed too to be sure you can see the whole picture. (If you buy the boat then you know it's clean and ready to go! Also if things are looking good at this time it's a good idea to change zincs if nec. while the boat's out)

btw, if you plan to insure the boat the carrier will likely require a survey in any event, for valuation purposes.

Welcome to the wonderful world of buying a boat (properly!)


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## PaulinVictoria (Aug 23, 2009)

Shouldn't need pressure washing, it only went into the water yesterday. I believe it was painted with multi-season bottom paint which can be hauled and put back into the water without needing to be painted again. I've sent that chap an email to see if he does surveys and how much it would cost.


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## PaulinVictoria (Aug 23, 2009)

Well, the deed is done and I've emailed a tentative offer. Now have to wait and see what they say and where we end up. Fingers crossed!!


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Best of luck!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Good luck


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## PaulinVictoria (Aug 23, 2009)

I got his counter offer. Ahhhhh, will give it a day or two and pop in my final offer. There are a lot of boats around so the price needs to reflect the market. Having said that, I want a deal that we are both happy with. Always did enjoy a good haggle.


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## Jim H (Feb 18, 2006)

PaulinVictoria said:


> I got his counter offer. Ahhhhh, will give it a day or two and pop in my final offer. There are a lot of boats around so the price needs to reflect the market. Having said that, I want a deal that we are both happy with. Always did enjoy a good haggle.


Be wary of the soft spot on the deck-- and make sure the surveyor was clear about what would need to be done to deal with it.

I still part-own a Cal 20, and I owed a C&C 27, and I've been on C&C 24s. I would go for the C&C 24 if possible, but the C&C 24 and 27s had balsa cores in their rounded decks, and water could spread inside and affect them pretty seriously.

There's a dedicated site for C&C 27s that had a picture gallery and article about redoing wet decks-- it was an eye opener. I'm glad our C&C 27 was fine in that regard.

Good luck-- I hope it works out!

note: here's a link to the deck repair article:

C&C 27 Assoc - Black Arts - Deck Repairs


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## PaulinVictoria (Aug 23, 2009)

Scary stuff! There were definite cracks around the stanchions so I suspect there may be rather more water ingress into the core than just the soft spot would suggest. I wonder if it's even worth going any further with this one. Hmmm.
Out of interest, what sort of costs are involved in something like repairing a rotten core per square foot?


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

More than the boat is worth if you have to pay someone to do it. At least one sailing season if you do it yourself, timewise, and depending upon the extent of the damage, your tool inventory, and expertise it could cost as much in materials and tools as your initial purchase price.


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## Jim H (Feb 18, 2006)

bljones said:


> More than the boat is worth if you have to pay someone to do it. At least one sailing season if you do it yourself, timewise, and depending upon the extent of the damage, your tool inventory, and expertise it could cost as much in materials and tools as your initial purchase price.


Sadly, bljones is correct. Redoing wet decks on a C&C is something best done after a few years of happy ownership, when you know the time will be worth it. It's probably not the first thing to do on a new-to-you boat, to keep the soft spot from spreading on the deck.

Our Cal 20 had a slight soft spot where a deck vent was put in incorrectly. Luckily, the Cal 20 has plywood in the decks, and we were able to remove and replace from inside the boat fairly easily.

That said, there are a lot of comfort differences between a C&C 24 and a Cal 20 (or even a Cal 25).


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## PaulinVictoria (Aug 23, 2009)

Well, I went and had a tap around and the only part I could find was the spot on the foredeck about 3-4" across. It was also mentioned in a survey from 2003 so doesn't look like it's actually got any worse. I'm fairly resigned to the fact that no boat that is 30+ years old is going to be perfect (nor indeed many that are younger) but as degrees of perfect goes, this one appears (pre-survey at least) better than most I've seen.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Frankly, as much as i am not in love with the way they look, I think a Grampian 23 under budget is a better choice than a C&C with soft spots and cracks around the stanchoin bases that is at the top of your budget.

Think carefully.

Yeah, there is no 30-40 year old boat that is perfect, but maybe there is one that is perfect for you. Is this one the perfect boat for you?


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## PaulinVictoria (Aug 23, 2009)

It's been the best one I've looked at so far. If I'm looking for the perfect one, well, I need to win the lottery or accept the fact that I'm going to be spending the next ten years looking for a boat rather than sailing one 
If the guy accepts my offer then I will get it surveyed and see where I go from there. At worst I've spent a few hundred bucks for nothing.


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## PaulinVictoria (Aug 23, 2009)

The offer has been accepted, subject to survey and a sea trial. So, assuming they go well, I should be out on the ocean soon. Watch out mariners


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Aaaaright!!!!


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## PaulinVictoria (Aug 23, 2009)

Now of course the question is, sea trial before the survey, or after?


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

survey first. The water in the bilge worries me, and I have a sinking feeling about the amount of wet core you are going to find.


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## PaulinVictoria (Aug 23, 2009)

You may well be right, and it's going to cost me a few hundred dollars to find out one way or the other but at the moment as far as my untrained eyes can see, it's not bad. If the survey isn't good, I walk away, plenty more fish in the sea.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Good attitude, paul.


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## PaulinVictoria (Aug 23, 2009)

If only I could of had a pre-purchase survey on the Admiral, would have saved me a packet.


I hope she never reads this forum or I may find myself buried at sea, alive.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Dude, some of us live aboard and alone by choice, and then there are those of us who go out of their way to eliminate all other options.

If you think a pre-purchase survey would have saved you money, just consider the cost of decommissioning.


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## Jim H (Feb 18, 2006)

PaulinVictoria said:


> Now of course the question is, sea trial before the survey, or after?


I would go for the sea trial first, and then the survey, in case the engine/drive train makes any funky noises, blows smoke, etc. Also, if there are unusual things you notice, like water around the base of the rudder stock, etc. Jams in the running rigging.. Make these notes during the sea trial, and then ask the surveyor about them during the actual survey.

Good luck on all this-- I would still go for the C&C 24 if it is viable. If it is a '79, that is post George Hinterhoeller (he was with them until '76), so be sure about build quality. Ours was a '73.

Also, there will always be another right boat, so don't feel bad about taking a pass. The other good thing about taking the sea trial first is that you get to experience the boat for future reference, if it doesn't work out.


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