# Head replacement: Catalina 30



## geary126 (Jul 11, 2006)

have a Groco HF that stinks, in every sense.

Could use advice. Like Wilcox Head Mate because reviews seem pretty good--less spash?--and it's cheap, so I can throw it away in 30 months.

It appears...from the mediocre product websites...that hoses are the same diameter. anyone out there done this? Do the hoses attach at approximately the same place? 

Also, I'm guessing the bolt pattern is not identical. Are there even bolts? This is for a Catalina 30, and I don't seem to be able to access an area to reach nuts....so perhaps they are merely screws.

If so, will the new head come with those fasteners...and if not, what would you recommend?

I'm trying, for the first time ever, to fix something with one (1) trip to the hardware store.

Merci.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

I have done it two times. Just a few thoughts:

1) FLush the head many times and dry bowl many times. I even poured a bit of bleach and ran it through. Any little bit helps. When you take off the hoses, they will leak so have many towels ready. Be aware, the supply line hose will probably stink worse than the sewer hose.

2) You better plan on splicing those hoses. If they have been on there for very long, getting them off takes an act of God. I typically cut (lengthwise)and try and pry a screwdriver under there... but after about 30 minutes and 30 stitches, I just cut the whole thing off. Same is true on the water supply line. Just plan on replacing it. They are not that epensive and West Marine carries them. You cannot easily (understatement) replace the sewer line on a Catalina 30. If it does not match up or you cannot stretch it, use a pastic sleeve and double hose clamp. When putting the hoses back on, I like to use dish soap as a lubricant.

3) As far as bolts and access, etc... sorry... I cannot remember. Seems unlogical it would be through bolted... but if it is, good luck getting to the back of those nuts.

4) I actually like the inexpensive little Jabsco toilets. They are cheap (like 160 bucks), and are very dependable. You can also (should the desire strike) buy a add-on to convert it to a electric head. If you do, everything matches up perfect to the pump and it is very simple. Also, by doing that, you can keep the back-up manual pump should a matchbox car find its way into your macerator.

5) My suggestion to do this right and get prompt service is to pull the head off and take it with you to West Marine. Set it up on the counter and explain to them what you are trying to do and explain that you know nothing about boating and have never been in their store before (all a little white lie, I am sure... but that is ok). The pungent smell and evacuating customers will assure you that you will receive very prompt service from at least three trained professionals, including the manager. They will have you everything you need the first time because the thought of that head coming back and setting on thier counter will be unbearable. When you leavem, ask them if they want to keep the old head... some guy on Sailnet said there was a core charge.

Remeber in boating as in life, it is not so much what you do but your approach that really counts.

Good luck. Have fun.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

I'm not familiar with Wilcox, but regarding the fasteners, just about every head mfgr does not provide them. You will need to size them to the mounting flange and predrill through the base material. 

Since various types of materials, such as FRP, wood or solid surface board, are used as base materials in boats, the installer must select the appropriate fastener. I would suspect a C30 would have an FRP base, therefore use pan head stainless screws.


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## geary126 (Jul 11, 2006)

Crusing Dad, You Cracked Me Up Re: West Marine Visit.

Re: Plan:

So, It's Cut The Old One Wherever, Use A Short Inner Sleeve (like 3"?] With Hose Clamp, Join To New Section Of Hose With Hose Clamp, Continue New Hose To Head, Attach With Hose Clamp, No?


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Yep. You may can get the thing off if you work at it hard enough. How old is your boat? 

As far as the intake, just cut the crappin thing... I never could get the thing off. If you are going to spend the time on something, make it the sewer line. Also, depending on the head you choose, you might be able to make it fit. Careful you don't kink it... for obvious reasons. 

They should have all the fitting to make the connections at West. Buy a bit of extra hose just in case. Buy some 45's and 90's too. They are cheap.

Remember the soap. Double clamp everything. You could also consider, since you are doing it anyway, putting in an inline deoderizer. Be a good time to do it. I am personally installing a strainer with SS basket where you add chlorine tabs and Teflon tabs. Elimintes all smells and really breaks stuff up. ANother sailor showed me the trick and they have been using it for 15 years or something... so he says anyway. But I will say, his head is awesome (smell) and it will save you countless money in head treatments. Initial costs are high for strainers, but that is it. Tabs are dirt cheap compared to tank treatments.

I did check with Catalina and the hose mfg's and tank mfg, and they seemed to think it was allright. On a manual head, I would be a little worried about the gaskets wearing with the Cl, but apparently the teflon takes care of that??????

Don't know. I am going to give it a shot.

Happy fishing.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Suggest a Raritan PHII or a Lavac as replacement. Neither will have the same footprint so you need to insure that you can accomodate them, but the PHII's hoses are in the same approximate location as your existing hose. BTW...are you SURE it is not the hose that stinks as well. This is a very common problem in older boats. If in doubt...get some new hose too as it is a whole lot easier to do this once! Standard is 1.5" for "output" and 3/4" for input! 
I doubt that your present head is held by screws so you may want to consult the C30 owners group here on Sailnet to see if anyone can provide instructions for removal. One alternative for mounting your new head is to cut some STARBOARD to fit the available space and mount the new head to that with bolts & wahers...then screw the starboard down and connect the hoses. 
You can view complete specs on all the heads on line to decide what fis
GrocoHF

Raritan

Lavac


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

PS Did not stress enough trying to keep the sewer hose intact if possible... but it just may not be.


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## geary126 (Jul 11, 2006)

Cam, did not mean the unit stinks, literally. Although it does, I'm sure. Just broken, broken, broken.

re: Catalina groups. Can't figure out why largest 30' class has such a small forum. Any alternate suggestions?


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

You should consider joining Mainsheet. It is $28/year... but well worth it. It is a Catalina owners organization. You will get a monthly (or so) magazine with technical tearouts and forums just for your boat. Close group os sailors that help one another.

You C30 Technical Editor is: Max Munger. His email is [email protected]
You can PM me for his telephone number.

Your commodore for the C30 is Jack Gray. Email: [email protected]
Again, you can pm me for his telephone number.

If you cannot get the answers you need there, let me know.


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## foxglove (Dec 27, 2002)

I have done this job twice in the past 4 years. I forget the brand of the one that didn't last. Sorry.

I used the odor proof hose. It is difficult to dilate so that it fits over the connectors. A friend suggested that I heat the end in boiling water before attempting to make a connection. I did that and also needed to spread the opening even further by inserting a plier into the opening and stretching it in all directions. I was not careful enough about getting the hose back to round and when the job was done I had some leaks where I stretched the hose too much in one direction. I poured boiling water over the fitting while tightening the hose clamp and that worked.

My head is through bolted to a formica covered wooden box of about 5' high and open on the bottom. The floor of the head has two strips of wood bolted to the floor to which the box attaches with screws through the side. If you need to reconstruct the attachment, this is a good way to do it because you can maneuver the head as you attach the hoses then attach the head last.

Make sure you have the system vented above the waterline to prevent siphon.

Max


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Another pretty good head unit is the Blake Lavac heads... uses a diaphragm pump.


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## geary126 (Jul 11, 2006)

I just looked at pics I took....it looks like the Graco has hex head machine screws...but it also looks like there's no access to the area below for nuts. Does this mean I have to replace the Graco with another identical unit? [= $150) 

I'd screw it in, but would only feel comfortable if I knew what I was screwing into. so to speak.


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## foxglove (Dec 27, 2002)

It looks like you have no choice but to replace it. But before I went for another Groco, I would remove those bolts/screws (you're going to have to anyway) and remove the head and see how they were fastened. 

If they are through bolted and the nuts fell into the space below, then you know you will have to invent a new way of fastening. You might be able to drill holes large enough for the heads of a bolt to fit through then create a slot next to the hole that is only large enough for the shaft of the bolt. Think of the way telephones hang on the wall.

If there is thick fiberglass or wood below and those fasteners in the picture are screws, you might consider installing a new head using the same method.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Geary...You should remove the existing screws or bolts in any case. I believe you will find that these are lag bolts that go through the fiberglass into a wood base. In that case you can fill the holes in and drill new ones for whatever your new head requires. IF there is no wood underlay, or you have bolts there now then you might use Lag Screws into anchors (mollys) instead of bolts OR you could build that Starboard platform I discussed above. In any case it does not seem like much of a job as everything is right there in front of you and you'll know what you have once you remove the first screw. Based on the look of those hoses...you should replace those at the same time if you want that daisy fresh smell and no future problems!


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## geary126 (Jul 11, 2006)

*the hardware (fasteners)....*

is this a West Marine thing? will they come with the new head? Or just run down to the local hardware store.

somebody suggested puting boatlife into the old holes...to make sure there are no pockets for gunk to collect.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Yes, it is a west marine thing. They sell the hose by the foot. You need to know the size (1/2", 5/8th, etc.). You also need the length. 

In all seriousness, take the hoses off and take it to West. You can match length and I.D., and avoid mistakes. BUT LEAVE THE WASTE HOSE. It would be a nightmare to get that thing out and back in anyway. And I will remind you, the intake will likely reak!!! 

Did you try contacting your tech editor for C30?


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## geary126 (Jul 11, 2006)

Thanks, Cruisingdad. And, yes. And promise...will leave the waste hose.


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## geary126 (Jul 11, 2006)

*Bad Karma, or How Not to Replace the Head*

So my friend, also part owner, and I decided that we were going to tackle this thing, head on. Pun intended. So we each summarily abandonned our families, and headed for the boat around 10 pm, the plan being to knock this thing out, have a celebratory beer, and then get back to our homes either late, or first thing.

I think I can hear the faint laughter, from here.

Bought the Jabasco. Bought some 3/4inch water hose.

That was about the high point, of the expedition.

Taking the old one out was no big deal. Oh, sure, I got dirty water sprayed in my face, and I'll probably be blind by Monday, but no sweat. We were on an adventure, after all! Male bonding, plus power tools. What more could a guy ask for?

Getting the replacement hose on was a grind. Little did I know that this was mere foreshadowing of what was to come.

We used soap, we prayed east...we even slit the hose, ever so slightly. Getting the hose over the barbed ridges on those hose fittings....what a grind.

Finally, made some headway. So to speak. But then, it was so late, we didn't want to use the drill to mount the new head. Of course, couldn't really use the drill, in that you can't drill holes right through the base--the bowl gets in the way.

So this morning, I made a pattern of the holes, taped it to the floor, and drilled away. Mounted the head...perfect! Except the waste hose, which I had promised not to touch, is about 3/8 of an inch too short.

I evaluated the situation. 1 little hose, 3 feet,held on by only 2 hoseclamps. Plus, there was good access. What the hell, I thought. I'll improve the value of the boat! Plus, less smell.

Getting the old hose off...was supposed to be tough. And it was, but ultimately, it came off easier than I thought it would.

And, since I had purchased the new 2" [1.5 i.d.] hose, I was ready to go. A little soap....and voil--. Wait. Hmmmm. Damn. That hose is tough.

To make a long story short, I spent 90 minutes on that stupid hose. Ultimately, in fact, I yanked the next section of pipe out, just so I could get the t-connection out of the boat, on the dock, where I could apply maximum force, I mean, thoughtful leverage.

By 1 pm, I threw in the towel, and headed for home. Behind, I left a bushel of tools all over the boat, along with a head 7/8 installed.

I was defeated. Three trips to West Marine, and it's only on the phone call that I make, on the way home, that somebody tells me to drop the hose end in boiling water.

A tough first week, for this new sailboat owner. But I'll persevere.

Maybe without a head, but I'll persevere.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Yes, hot water will often allow you to stretch the hose enough to get it over the pipe ends. However, be very careful how you stretch the hose when you do, as if you leave an area on the hose more stretched than the rest, you may get a leak.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Finally!! Someone else on this forum with a great sense of humor!!

Welcome to boat ownership...


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## geary126 (Jul 11, 2006)

Thanks Cruising Dad.

The funny thing is, after getting home and taking two showers, pretty much everybody I ran into knew about the hot water on the hose.

Old Navy Retail Clerk" Welcome to Old Navy! Hey, don't forget the hot water for that hose on the boat...

Okay, writer's embellishment, but this neighbor knew, my dad knew, my mom knew...and all got a laugh at the two hour wressling match I underwent...


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I am surprised that everyone is telling you to the leave the waste line on. The last time I changed out a head, (about two years ago), I replaced all of the hoses with the stuff that is supposed to fight odors. Suprisingly it worked and did reduce the odors. As for getting the hoses on....(I can hear the jokes coming), I used a bit of Vaseline. It actually worked well. But the hot water thing sounds intriguing.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Hey Surf and G126, 

I have not owned a 30, but from my recollection, access to get the hoses in/out is an absolute nightmare. That is why I recommended not cutting it/replacing... otherwise, replace all of them. 

Surf (& all), remember us talking about the pros/con's of the typical production cruiser versus a... Valiant, for example. Catalina is guilty of (though they all do it I am convinced): Stamp, we made the hull. Stamp, the liner. Stamp, the wiring and hoses (head hose, in our example). Stamp, the furniture, top, etc. etc. The benefit of that methodology is you can make lots of boats quickly and thus vastly reduce costs. 

Now, let me tell you how Valiant, for example, does it. Bam, hull. Furniture. Basic rigging. THEN, send in the plummers, the electricians, etc. This makes the boat longer in production and thus a more expensive vessel. I asked Valiant why they did this (before I knew better). They replied: "Because, if we put them all in after the fact, our theory is that the owner can get to them all should the need arise."

Well, G126, I bet you can attest to that.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

CDad: You know, now that mention it, it was a ***** getting it up and out. On my hunter, the pump out line went through the back of a closet that was paneled over. The waste line had about 6 feet that went under that same closet to the bilge to the holding tank. Fortunately, I had an expansive vocubulary that suited the circumstances and allowed me to blow off some frustration.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

And people wonder where the phrase, "Curse like a sailor" comes from. They obviously have not owned a boat.

I remember specifically after the electric head got jammed with a matchbox car (courtesy of my son), just standing there and staring at it: Pot full of s***, bowl 3/4 full and water sloshing around, and thinking to myself, "Lord, why oh why do you test me like this?"

Brings up a lesson learned (which thankfully I did plan ahead): If your only head is electric, carry a back up manual that can be easily retro'd. Otherwise, carry a nice bucket or go meet your neighbors.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

From what I've seen, electric heads are more trouble than they're worth. Especially, the electric versions that were "upgraded" manual heads, where the major design change is adding a motor to a pump. 

Funny how everyone seemed to know that trick after the fact... hindsight is usually 20/20.


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## geary126 (Jul 11, 2006)

Well, on the home stretch tonight. While you guys relive the glory of neurosurgeries past, so to speak, I'd sure appreciate some notes on the depth instrument thread I posted. Basically, what is best route for depth / speed? 

Debating ST 40 multi ...but do I have to have haul out for transducers? See thread. Merci.


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## geary126 (Jul 11, 2006)

NEWS UPDATE: WORK DAY #2, GEARY STILL HELD HOSTAGE BY IRATE HEAD.

Went back with stove, makings for hot water. And then the makeshift "pan" leaked. Net net, took off waste lines, but still hosed.

Or hose-less.

How much heat is too much heat? I tried a hose on...got half-way. And then was stuck again. had to cut it off.


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## foxglove (Dec 27, 2002)

*Boiling water*

Geary 126;

Just boil the water and leave the hose in it long enough for it to soften. Then put a plier down inside the hose and stretch it in all directions being careful not to leave excessive bumps that might leak later. Get it as round as possible. Slip it over the barbs and pour some hot water over it with some towels underneath to catch the water. Tighen the clamps while still hot.

About the depth instrument. Remember my trick of wearing polarized sun glasses to read it. (that was the problem, correct?). The glasses remove the glare. It might save you some money.


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## geary126 (Jul 11, 2006)

*Held Hostage: The Head Chronicles (day 22)*

I NEED HELP, FOLKS. HERE'S THE UPDATE.

Okay, so I finished the damn thing. And it leaks.

Here's the issue. The Thru Hull (output) is in a lousy spot. 4 inches above the fitting is glass and wood, the what holds the main settee cushions.

On the old hose, which I stupidly elected to replace, they managed to get about a 110° turn in the hose, tight radius, but I couldn't pull that off with the uber stiff white 1.5 inch ID hose from West. It kept kinking.

So, ultimately, I resorted to a 90° fitting. Thus, 2" hose to 90° fitting. (four clamps, total) 15" hose to t fitting, four more clamps.

Now, admittedly, when I came back to the boat with the 90° fitting, I did notice that the hose fit over it without the usual heat-300 lbs of pressure, skinned knuckles, swearing in front of the kid routine. In short, it was not a tight connection. But I figured, 2 hose clamps on each side...would do the trick.

Wrong. That's where the leak is.

Thus, my options are, get another 90° fitting, one that is tight. But on further reflection, I hate all these sections and clamps. Sketches me out.

What I'd rather do is find a hose that's flexible enough to make a tight bend, thus reducing section / clamp count.

Suggestions, please!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Is this the raw water input or the head waste output line? If it is the waste output line, then you really don't want any sharp bends or elbows in it. as those make it far more likely to plug up. That is something you really want to avoid.  Tight bends in hoses are basically a really bad idea in a sewage line, as the sharp bends tend to catch waste and such, and also make the line more likely to retain fluids, leading to hose permeation and boat stench.

Elbows are still more likely than straight sections to clog, but a solid elbow, beats a tight bend in a hose hands down.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

I don't see anything wrong with a 90 degree bend in the pipe to your holding tank.A 90 degree plastic pipe will not collapse or cause problems like a hose will. It seems so me that you just need to get the right size and a tight fit. If it is very close, I would try a little silicon on the fitting before clamping the hose. There should be no pressure in the system so that might get your leak fixed if you just leave it set up for 24 hours before using. Has worked for me in the past. Of course...if you overfill the system and you do pressurized it...the sxxt could hit the settee!


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## geary126 (Jul 11, 2006)

This is all about the Waste Output...over the side. There's a T, with one hose to the holding tank. The thru hull , output, requires the sharp turn.

Right now, I have this white bulletproof West Marine sanitation hose...and it keeps kinking, every time I try the turn.

Thus, the retreat to the 90° poly elbow...with sanitation hose in and out.


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## MikeinLA (Jul 25, 2006)

OK, I am now very afraid. In the aft cabin of my Cat 36 at this very moment sits a new Jabsco head and 9 feet of that white 8 bloody dollar a foot hose, ready for Wednesday when I plan to replace everything from the input line to the output thru hull. It all started with a leaky pump handle on the head. I was ready to buy a re-build kit, but the kit was 65 bucks and the whole head was $ 139, so I went for it. I figured it was a good idea to replace the hoses while I'm at it, so you and I are in the same boat (sorry). I've put in heads & changed macerator and other pumps before. It's just one of those nasty jobs that hopefully doesn't come up too often. Incidentally, you should try getting to and replacing the freshwater pump on a Cat 36 if you want a truly religious experience. By way of trying to help, I can make 2 suggestions. First, I always use a hair drier to soften the hose. I find that by the time the hose comes out of the boiling water and is cool enough to touch, it isn't stretchy anymore. Plus, the boiling water works on a free piece of hose, but if you're working on that last connection, with everything else connected, you can't get that last end into a pan of water. The hair drier can be applied right at the fitting and can often be used to soften the hose along the run to get a little bend into it. Second, since you mentioned an angle problem, I got this nifty new Jabsco diverter valve and the 2 ends (to holding tank & overboard) rotate to allow for a better fit. Not sure if this is your problem, but thought I'd throw it in just in case. By the time I get to mine, you'll be sipping a frosty feeling very proud of yourself. I'll be sure to relate my tale to give you a good laugh. Oh, and be sure to check the vent line from the top of your holding tank to the vent hole in the stanchion. These get plugged up relatively easily and a blocked vent will pressurize the system which is not a good thing. Have fun & good luck,

Mike


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

> Oh, and be sure to check the vent line from the top of your holding tank to the vent hole in the stanchion. These get plugged up relatively easily and a blocked vent will pressurize the system which is not a good thing. Have fun & good luck,


Mike, you're the master of understatement.


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## foxglove (Dec 27, 2002)

*Last resort*

I too had problems with the overboard discharge hose leaking. I pulled the hose off, plugged and shut off the waste thru-hull and went sailing. I sail in an area where overboard discharge is prohibited anyway so it all goes into the tank.

When, and if ever, I get to the sea, I'll redo the whole thing. But if you are pissing away (chuckles?) your weekends on the project, run it to the tank and go sailing.


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## carlosthedog (Sep 8, 2006)

*Inserting a 90*

Soon I will go the same routine of replacing the hoses. I recently spent 3 hours rebuilding the head and spent $70 for the kit. And it still smells. I could of bought a new head for $150 and completed the job in under an hour. Oh well! now I know how to rebuild a head.

Back to your problem. The white no odor hose looks a lot like spaflex and I wonder if you could simply use a PVC 90 and glue the thing on? Has anyone else tried this?


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Carlos...would never glue the hose on. When it comes time to remove it...and there will come a time to remove it...trust me!...you don't want it stuck on there too well! Recommend silicon putty...sticks, waterproof and comes off without too much effort.


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## MikeinLA (Jul 25, 2006)

Well, the hard part's done! I got all the 1 1/2" Odorsafe hoses cut, fitted and clamped today. I swear if I ever meet Mr. Shields, I will take my left over piece of hose and beat him to death with it. What a pain it is to work with! I must say that I have improved the system though. The old Y valve was just hanging there buried under the settee by the holding tank. Instead of a Y, the new Jabsco diverter has the 2 "out" tubes able to run in a straight line side by side. I drilled another 2" hole in the bulkhead and was able to mount the diverter behind the head with both hoses running through the bulkhead. Now I can just reach down behind the head to change the flow and if there is ever a problem with the valve, I'll be able to detect it quicker and easier. I'm very pleased with this set-up. Changing the holding tank inlet to a 90 elbow gave me a mere 9" run from the Y valve to the tank on a level run. Now I just have to hook up the 3/4' hoses and vents and I'm done. Paging Mr. Shields.......

Mike


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

congrats... and I've sent a telegram to mr. shields, telling him to run.


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## MikeinLA (Jul 25, 2006)

My final post on this thread, I am happy to say I am DONE! New head, all hoses and Y-valve replaced and NOTHING LEAKS!! One final "F You" from my plumbing system to me, however. Doing the test flushing, valve open to the holding tank & pressure was building to the point that the head pump handle wouldn't go down. Hmm? The only thing I could think of was that the water was somehow going into the hose which leads overboard, but that seacock was closed, so thus the pressure build-up. But how, when the valve handle is clearly pointing to the tank side? Well, contrary to everything I've ever learned about valves where the handle goes in the direction of the flow, Jabsco apparently likes having the handle pointing to the side that is BLOCKED! Put the valve back together, pointed it to the overboard discharge hose (thus blocking it) and Voila, works like a charm. I'm getting the feeling that Mr. Shields and Mr. Jabsco do this stuff on purpose. 

Mike


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

LOL... Just don't jinx yourself...


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