# So, how do I prepare for a 5 year cruise with kids?



## Jim H

Any advice on how to prepare for a five-year cruise with two kids?

We sail a lot now, and charter, but we have this growing "bug" of an idea to cruise while we're still in our forties and before the kids hit High School age.

We're thinking of picking up something like a Pearson 424, Valiant 40 or a Passport 40 in 2-3 years, and then live aboard for a year while still working to prepare. (We're not big boat people, but with growing kids...) We'll either cash out the house at the time of purchase, or rent for a year to see how that works out. 
*
Scary part*-- finding catastropic health care for all four of us during the cruise. Maybe skipping on boat insurance. Finding jobs again in the future. Maybe not holding onto real estate while we're gone.

*Okay part*-- boat schooling the kids for five years (wife and I are both educators).

*Fun part*-- having enough cash to do a low-budget cruise for five years, but stop early if cash runs out, or go longer if we can write or do other during-cruise work along the route. We'd like to do the PNW, Inside passage, West Coast, Mexico and Sea of Cortez, and then decide to continue either west or east (through the canal).

*Mission part*-- I have some academic contacts in Chicago who would build a survey and data collection tool for us, so we could visit local schools on our journey and collect data, publish articles and build connections with schools in the US. We could do some teaching along the way (for free) and our kids could experience some local schools as well.

If we're careful, we should be able to afford the boat with no loans, and have enough cash to fund the cruise (as long as insurance doesn't kill us). After the cruise, we'd plan to have enough cash for a downpayment on another house, and we'd re-enter the working world. Kids would be ready for college (we have decent college accounts running for them now).

So, any brilliant advice? General budget for the boat would be around $100k (maybe not enough for a Passport 40), and if we don't end up with a perfect blue water boat we still do a lot of cruising with a solid coastal cruiser. We have 2-3 years before the next big step, but it's still fun to plan, learn and scheme.

Thanks!

Jim H


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## sailingdog

Living aboard may not be such a good idea... many of the books on cruising I've read, and many of the cruisers I've met/written/spoken to suggest that living aboard is not a great way to start out... they suggest that it is easier to just jump in with both feet, once you've gotten enough experience on the boat you're going to be using.

Some say that this is especially true if you have children... as they may not appreciate the differences in the cruising lifestyle, like no high-speed internet, no satellite/cable tv... etc. and only see the downsides to what they are missing when you are living aboard...and this may turn the off on the idea of cruising.

If you go straight to cruising, rather than living aboard, they will be far to busy to realize that the high-speed internet and satellite TV are missing for the most part.

I would budget at least 20% of the purchase price of the boat for upgrades and refits to the boat, as even the most well-equipped boat is going to have some things that you will want to change or replace, and it will cost more than you expect if you haven't budgeted a chunk for it.

I'd also hold off on any major changes to the running rigging, deck layout, and controls on the boat until you've sailed it a while. Once you've had some time on the boat, you can figure out what works for you and what needs to be made to work for you better.

You might want to contact the s/v Makulu or read their website http://www.reachtheworld.org/ to see what else you might be able to do.

If you have questions, or comments, you can PM me.


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## PBzeer

One of the constant themes I came across in my reading, was to forget about a boat, until it's time to go. Downsize your life now, and put as much money away as you possibly can. Get rid of any debt that you can, and basically live as frugally as if you were on a boat.

Whether that would be the right approach for you and your family, is up to you. It certainly has some logic to it. Basically though, the more money you can put away, the more options you have when it's time to go.

A good starting point would be Nigel Calders "The Cruising Handbook". It can give you a lot of insight into what you need, boatwise, as well as skills. There are many books about cruising, starting with Beth Lenords "The Voyagers Handbook". You might want to read as many different ones as you can find, so that you can go into this with as realistic approach as possible.

I think it's a great idea, and will be an education for your kids, that no school can give them. 

Best wishes,


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## Jim H

John and Sailingdog, thanks for your replies. I see a theme in your comments that highlights a weakness in our general plans.

First off, I always cringe when I hear stories of would-be cruisers who get stuck in marinas for long periods of time. That's fine if they really enjoy living aboard, but our goal is to travel.

I also agree with John's point about "forgetting about the boat until it's time to go." That point was argued forcefully by Jim Trefethen in his book _The Cruising Lifestyle_. Having the "perfect boat" too soon can be a radical drain on one's resources and really delay or even prevent the trip. In his opinion, buying the big boat with a loan, with the idea of paying it off over time before the trip, normally doesn't work out. Nor does buying a project boat, and fixing it up over many years, in his opinion.

My thinking was that we would want around 20% of the purchase price for repairs and improvements (as Sailingdog recommended). My concept was to own to boat for a year while still working full-time, so that cash flow would be available for surprises or repairs, and renting or selling the house could reduce living expenses further for the last year before departure.

The points made in your replies are quite valid, however. A revised timeline may put off the purchase of the boat until only a few months or so before work ends, but going into "extreme saving mode" for the last 1-2 years so that we have around $120,000 allocated for the boat. We started living frugally about a year ago (no Internet at home, no newspapers, no cable, camping vacations, keeping our aging cars longer, etc.), but we could save even more if we knew the trip was coming near.

The revised timeline could result in the boat being purchased in the late winter, and then put on the hard for essential repairs while I was still working. Since I'd likely need a boatyard for help, since I'll still be working full-time, this would cost more but the work would also be done more quickly. Less than critical repairs or improvements could be put off until we're elsewhere on the globe (perhaps at at place recommended by SSCA cruisers for good, affordable boat work).

As long as the boat met our standards to at least start cruising, we could likely sell the house, finish work, and start the cruise relatively quickly, with a July/August start with no "living aboard" while working, kids going to school, etc. This might mean heading South relatively soon for the winter, but so be it...

Thanks again for the comments and the book recommendations. I think the only place where we're a failure in terms of living frugally is that we didn't want to stop sailing while saving, so we consider sailing and maintaining our 27 footer as "an educational expense" in the process, along with a sailing course and one-week charter once a year (at least for now).

Jim H


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## PBzeer

You seem to have a pretty good grasp of the realities of what you plan, and that's a good start. Another thing you could be doing, to aid your sailing jones, and pick up some insight, is to crew on other boats. Particularly, ones in the size range you're looking at. Also, just walking the docks can show you some things others have done with their boats. As well as talking with with others who have done some offshore sailing.


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## ladyh

*Go Now...*

Do it for your kids.....look a a used Amel....great family cruising boat......and my thoughts on cruising

Go Cruising Now

When should one go cruising??? I asked myself that question 1000's of times when I was still tied to land. I define happiness as living my dream of cruising&#8230;. The following was emailed to me&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;how true it is&#8230;.I think back over the last 2 ½ yrs and all the cruiser WANT2B's who would want to ask this cruiser the same questions I asked for the last 20 yrs as my wife and I chartered sailboats in the Caribbean and other exotic places where the CRUISER migrated because he could&#8230;. 98% of these WANT2B's never go because the wait till&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;..
My Father, God bless his sole worked till he was 62&#8230;.yes he retired a few years early&#8230;but died 2 yrs later&#8230;.no he did not go fish all those trout and steelhead rivers he always dreamed of while working&#8230;..cut the land lines and GO&#8230;and Go NOW.

I'll be happy when... 
> 
> We convince ourselves that life will be better after we get married, have a baby, then another. Then we are frustrated that the kids aren't old enough and we'll be more content when they are. After that, we're frustrated that we have teenagers to deal with. We will certainly be happy when they are out of that stage. We tell ourselves that our life will be complete when our spouse gets his or her act together, when 
we get a nicer car, when we are able to go on a nice vacation or when we retire. The truth is there's no better time to be happy than right now. If not now, when? Your life will always be filled with challenges. 
> 
> It's best to admit this to yourself and decide to be happy anyway. Happiness is the way. So, treasure every moment that you have and treasure it more because you shared it with someone special, special enough to spend your time with .... and remember that time waits for no 
one. 
> So, stop waiting ... 
> Until your car or home is paid off. 
> Until you get a new car or home. 
> Until your kids leave the house. 
> Until you go back to school. 
> Until you finish school. 
> Until you lose 10 lbs. 
> Until you gain 10 lbs. 
> Until you get married. 
> Until you get a divorce. 
> Until you have kids. 
> Until the kids have graduated from college
> Until you retire. 
> Until summer.. 
> Until spring. 
> Until winter.
> Until the boat is paid for. 
> Until fall. 
> Until you die. 
> 
> There is no better time than right now to be happy. Happiness is a 
journey, not a destination. So work like you don't need money, love 
like you've never been hurt, and, dance like no one's watching.

I would have liked to recieved that 10 yrs ago....the the wife would have made the trip...she did always want a " boat baby"...funny thing....boat kids do better in college...and in life ....cruising is unique...special people....with a different slant on life....Capt Paul>


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## sailingdog

Hal Roth's book is a good one to read too. Might want to pick up a copy of the Complete Sailor as something for your kids to read...it is very well written and easily understandable, and covers much of the basics of sailing technique and theory.

I'd agree with what ladyh has posted as well. My late wife would have loved to go sailing, and we had talked about it...but we didn't have the time or the chance to go together....so my boat is named for her...and she will be with me in spirit.


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## PBzeer

Well said. Life is about being, not things.


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## Jim H

PBzeer said:


> Another thing you could be doing, to aid your sailing jones, and pick up some insight, is to crew on other boats.


This is another good recommendation, and we're working on it. I think a lot of people who begin sailing seriously later in life are somewhat shy about volunteering to crew on race boats, or even to crew on cruising boats. For us, we're building our ties with the local sailing community, contributing when we can, and building up the confidence to say yes as we see the invites go out for crewing. We see several now, but we want one more year of experience so we can focus more on the experience than worry about our short-comings.

We also have a general plan to ramp up our charters. We were comfortable and confident on the 35 footer we just took a course on, but we're chartering a basic 28 footer for our first one week charter. Next year, however, we plan to charter a Crealock 34 for a week. After that, who knows.

Thanks for the reply.

Jim H


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## Jim H

ladyh said:


> My Father, God bless his sole worked till he was 62&#8230;.yes he retired a few years early&#8230;but died 2 yrs later&#8230;.no he did not go fish all those trout and steelhead rivers he always dreamed of while working&#8230;..cut the land lines and GO&#8230;and Go NOW.


The more we think about it, the more we're haunted by the mistake of waiting too long. We've lost some people in just the last year from our lives who never got the chance to do the things they longed for, and that makes us wonder if the whole set-up of the "American Life" is more limiting that enlightening.

As a friend put it to me: every year we spend money, sometimes a lot, sometimes a little. Every year we spend our lives, as well. Which is more valuable?

We've already toyed with departing 15 years from now, 9 years from now, 4 years from now, and 1 year from now. Guess which is the scariest in terms of the long-range value of 401ks, college accounts, health care, etc. After thinking about them, however, and reading Latitude 38's reports about low-cost cruising in Mexico, low-cost health care out of the US, and other options, we're beginning to wonder if a fair percentage of the many of the "barriers" are exaggerated and facades. The patented American "exaggerated response" can expensive in many ways.

In some ways it would be easier to go the "go small, go now" approach if we didn't have kids. I mean, not even Larry and Lin had that challenge. If nothing else, though, the rewards may be greater.

Thanks for the thoughtful response-- and I wish you the best with your cruising!

Jim H


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## Jim H

sailingdog said:


> Hal Roth's book is a good one to read too. Might want to pick up a copy of the Complete Sailor as something for your kids to read...it is very well written and easily understandable, and covers much of the basics of sailing technique and theory.


Good recommendations-- I've read both of Hal Roth's books, and we've had the Complete Sailor out of the library. My son has also ready a "Young Sailors" book that he really liked. We've also joined reading all of Herb Payson's books (although I'm envious that Pacific Seacraft simply gave him a 34 on long-term loan to voyage on...).

At the start of Hal Roth's book, my favorite section was simply the double-page picture of Tanya Aebi on her Contessa 26, finishing her solo circumnavigation. In the detailed caption of the photo, Hal reviews all the equipment in plain view (wind vane, sea cloths, solar panels, her wet weather gear, etc.) and noted that all those things were standards for ocean voyagers even though 30 years had passed since the photo was taken.

The book that got us back into sailing a year and half ago was a $1 copy of Maiden Voyage by Tania Aebi from a used book sale. From the book, it was clear that she wasn't the happiest camper when the photo was taken that Hal used, but it was clear that she knew what she was doing at a very young age.

Jim H


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## Jim H

hersch said:


> We did exactly what you are proposing to do. When our son was 11, we bought a boat and cruised for almost 6 years. Cruising as a family is beyond compare.


If nothing else, it gives us comfort to know that others have been so successful at fulfilling plans like we're considering. I have heard very good things about kids who have cruised, but have been warned by others that the achievement isn't going to be a bowl of cherries. From a parenting perspective, there's a lot to be earned.

One thing I might do before the start is to earn a Wilderness First Responder certificate. I had a friend do this a few months ago, and he recommended it as well. The course sounds scary-- a week-long introduction to emergency first aid in remote locations. In one scenario, my friend was actually out at 1 a.m. bushwacking in the rain to help find, diagnosis and treat a simulated victom. In fact, the instructor who was playing the victom actually became hypothermic in the process...

Anyway, spending years in a boat with a family may lead to some medical situations in remote locations, and the more prepared we are for this the better. Simply having the knowledge will be a stress reducer.

As for the Channel Islands, we'll keep your contact information. We've already discussed chartering there after we've done Puget Sound for a couple of years. We could drive down, and then spend a week visiting the islands for some Pacific experience.

Thanks for the repsonse!

Jim H


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## PBzeer

Your responses show a thoughtful, measured approach, that bode well for your plans. The one statement though that you want to wait a year and get more experience before crewing, isn't necessary. Take every opportunity you can. You'll get more experience in a day or two of crewing, be it racing or crusing, than you'll get on your own. Don't be afraid of making mistakes, or looking dumb, just be honest with the skipper, and I don't doubt it will be rewarding for both parties. As with any endeavour, the key is learning the "tricks", that make things easier.

You can wait on weather, on making the boat shipshape, don't though, wait on gaining experience, in anything related to what you want to do. I'm sure the experiences you gain, will do naught but fan the flames of your desire.

Regards


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## hersch

*Preparation anxiety*

Jim H.

I notice that a lot of the replies here urge people like yourselves to avoid getting bogged down in preparations. There's a lot of truth to this. Many would-be cruisers (and there are many) are paralyzed by fears and spend years preparing themselves and their boats. By the time they are ready to go, other factors have intervened, forcing them to abandon their plans.

The important thing is to know you and your family's capabilities and those of your boat. Sail within your limits and extend those limits as you build experience. You will find that most passages are on the order of 1 or 2 days. Rare ocean crossings top out at 2 to 3 weeks in a reasonably quick boat. However long a passage, when you arrive in a new port, you will usually find what you need in the way of new and old friends and support services such as provisions, repair facilities, and health care.

The upshot is, don't wait too long to get started. Travel smart and travel safe. There is not need to assume the risks of long ocean passages before you feel ready. Shorter passages will provide plenty of grist in the early going. No exotic skills are required. Do leave before your kids turn 13 if at all possible. If you wait beyond that point, you will explaining to everyone that you are waiting until the kids finish college, which may be too late! If you get them out there before age 13, they will develop an appreciation that will carry them through as they mature during the voyage.

Finally, I suggest you not head out on a "5-year voyage". Start the voyage with the idea that you will continue as long as you are all having fun. Make plans with back doors so that everyone understands that you can exit if things aren't working out. This knowledge does a lot to ease fears that you've gotten into something you can't get out of. In this way, your journey will unfold before you without preoccupation, expectation, and fear...a better recipe for joy and discovery.

Do get it touch if you are able. Also check out our video clip at http://www.3sigma.com/sailing/Final/BigPicture.html

Marc
S/V Songline
www.SailtheChannel.com


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## Jim H

PBzeer said:


> The one statement though that you want to wait a year and get more experience before crewing, isn't necessary. Take every opportunity you can. You'll get more experience in a day or two of crewing, be it racing or crusing, than you'll get on your own. Don't be afraid of making mistakes, or looking dumb, just be honest with the skipper, and I don't doubt it will be rewarding for both parties. As with any endeavour, the key is learning the "tricks", that make things easier.


Geez-- basically you're saying that I have to overcome all my self-doubts and shyness to gain knowledge and experience. You're right, of course, and later this summer I will put my name on the list to crew with the Cal 20 racing fleet for experience-- I still like small boats for new challenges (like handling a spinnaker for the first time).

There's something perverse about sailing. I personally find it both exhilerating and a harsh mistress. Some sailes are perfect, and other days I'm bugged for days by how hard the docking was because of current. "Did I scratch the topsides?"

I'm not certain why we should enjoy something that's so demanding, mentally and physically, and that's if you're doing it "right." I guess it's one of those nothing ventured, nothing gained sort of things, but I wonder if I'll ever live in a comfort zone again. Are we not supposed to?

Thanks again for your responses-- these are all fun and challenging things to think about.

Jim H


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## sailingdog

Hersch's points about learning as you go are good ones. Initially, try to avoid putting yourself and your boat in conditions that are going to be difficult to handle and work your way up to them, as you get more familiar with the boat, you will begin to understand how she will handle various situations and how you have to treat her to get her to respond. 

This isn't to say that you should stick to fair winds and blue skies only, but that you should take the boat out in different conditions to get an idea of how she responds under various weather conditions and with different amounts of sail. 

Unfortunately, most boats are different enough that this kind of learning is pretty boat specific. What works on one boat, may or may not work on yours.... so the more familiar and experienced you are with your boat, the better off you will be. Crewing and racing on other boats is good experience, but not everything you learn there will be applicable to your boat specifically. If you can race or crew on the same model boat as your own, that would be more valuable than doing so on a different type of boat, but the more experience you can get—the better.


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## Jim H

hersch said:


> Finally, I suggest you not head out on a "5-year voyage". Start the voyage with the idea that you will continue as long as you are all having fun.
> 
> Do get it touch if you are able. Also check out our video clip at http://www.3sigma.com/sailing/Final/BigPicture.html


Marc, thanks for the link to the video clip. It was a relaxing way to finishing the day.

Your points about "back doors" and over preparation are important. I don't think we'd have a problem stopping early if we wanted to, and if the trip takes ten years of preparation then our kids are going to be waving good-bye before we go. Of course, committing to something too big ("We're going to circle the world!") can also lead to the never-ending preparation loop.

We're also open to the idea that one to two week cruises might turn out to be prefect for us, even in the long run. We could cruise for three weeks in a row this summer if we wanted to, depending mostly on our spirits and energy level. By the same token, we may cruise just a week and then take a break, so as not to push things too hard on the kids. It's great to hear stories of "our kids crossed the Pacific when they were 4 years old and loved it," but all kids are different, and we try to recognize our little one's loves and passions as much as our own.

So, in that regard, we may always fall short of the five year cruise, at any time. That's part of the planning-- the "as long as its fun" sort of thing. The hard part for me to figure out is the financial plan of sustaining a five-year cruise and then a re-entry of some sort. I'd like to have the option open of continuing if we really love it, and that means "starting at the end" and working backwards with our plans for overall stability.

As someone noted on another board, financial problems have prematurely ended more cruises than any boat, skill, health or weather problems. Others have noted that it seems like many or most of the cruisers they meet are in retirement age. We may also end up in that group, but not without making an honest effort at designing a 1-5 year cruise financially and kids-wise, not to mention "pucker factor" and motivation-wise.

Given all the possible show-stoppers, maybe I shouldn't even worry about a major cruise. For good or bad, however, my family is pretty solid as a unit, and we're used to relatively rugged travel and outdoors experiences. If we were to start a cruise tomorrow, I don't think we'd need too many luxuries aboard to be happy.

Thanks again for your replies!

Jim H


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## Jim H

sailingdog said:


> This isn't to say that you should stick to fair winds and blue skies only, but that you should take the boat out in different conditions to get an idea of how she responds under various weather conditions and with different amounts of sail.
> 
> Unfortunately, most boats are different enough that this kind of learning is pretty boat specific.


We've been doing pretty well at being more than "fair weather sailors." We've been out in reefed and rain situations more than once on a range of boats, and we feel the harder conditions are becoming less of a concern and more of an opportunity. The only thing that's bothersome at the moment is that our Columbia has an abnormally high current, cross-wise to our slip, making docking and general sailing less fun than normal.

I've been thinking about crewing and other learning opps this week, and I've found out more about the local cruising trips offered by the sailing clubs and organizations. Right after our week-long charter in the San Juans, we might join a one-week cruise to Astoria and back on the Columbia, to learn more from the seasoned cruisers who sail much of the year in varying conditions and have a lot of local knowledge. Rafting up and learning more about their years of crusing sounds like a great experience.

Your note about boat-specific knowledge is also true, but it's kind of surprising how many opportunities there are once one knows the local sailing community a bit better. In the past week, I've read about crewing opportunities in the Sound and off-shore as people are moving their larger sailboats for the season and are looking for help. Both my wife and I would like to do this in the future, as well as do some crewing for racing. The opportunities are pretty amazing, and each is an investment.

Jim H


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## PBzeer

I would think, that if you can do some 2-3 week cruises, especially to areas you are unfamilar with, it would be a good barometer of how well the family, as a unit, will take to full time cruising.

In following this thread, it seems you would be better off with more of an "outline", than a specific plan, such as a circumnavigation. So that you are taking what you have, rather than trying to force yourselves into a specific box. You already seem to have that in mind, and while it may not "go along" with much of the stuff you read, if it works for you is the main thing. In other words, don't exclude anything, but don't feel pushed into doing more than you feel right with.

As an example, simply going from Portland, OR to Portland, ME would be a heck of a cruise.


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## PBzeer

Just came across this on another board, and thought you might find it helpful Jim.....

"I'm reading _All in the Same Boat_ by Tom Neale. It's about a a family of four living aboard and cruising the east coast and Carribean.

He talks about the basics of what kind of boat to buy and why he thinks it is a good idea. But more importantly he talks about things like _What on earth do you do all Day_ and _Kids aboard_ and _Teaching Your Kids_. Coming from a man who has done this for at least 15 years, he's had a lot of insight and his kids have added information from thier perspective too.

If your thinking about this life style, buy it used from Amazon and give it read! Once again it reinforces that this is what I want to do!"


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## hersch

If you have the will and the means, don't worry about sailing "around the world" just go out there and sail around...the world.

Marc
S/V Songline
www.SailtheChannel.com


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## Jim H

PBzeer said:


> Just came across this on another board, and thought you might find it helpful Jim.....
> 
> "I'm reading _All in the Same Boat_ by Tom Neale. It's about a a family of four living aboard and cruising the east coast and Carribean.


I'm laughing because for some strange reason I really disliked this book. After reading the first two chapters, I took it back to the library thinking "This guy is far too negative."

Now, it's not that I don't like "straight-shooting" authors who write about the hardships, dangers and reality of cruising. Perhaps my favorite book that reflects both the unreality of our expectations, and the reality of what cruising delivers, is Sterling Hayden's _Wanderer_. Talk about wanting to escape a dim existence by cruising, and then finding out that all the same ghosts go with you! (Great book.)

In Tom Neale's case, I found that even his positive examples were depressing, and his negative examples were pedantic. Basically, I simply got the sense that he lost the war on the "this is worth it" front. Either that, or he seriously believed that most people shouldn't cruise, unless they really follow his rules. You can read the opening pages of his book at Amazon.com, as well as a reviewer who had even harsher words to say.

Luckily, the web and library is filled with counter-examples, like the excellent http://www.sailzora.com/ site and other books about sailing families. Some go too far in "burying" the negative, but overall the goal of both surviving and enjoying seems to be met.

One way I look at it is this: I grew up working on old cars and being exposed to buidling houses and doing other shop projects. Now that I don't do that, working on my boats is more relaxing and rewarding that grinding away at the office. Nobody loves to rebuild a marine head or hacksaw a temp sender out of a block, but working on a boat is rewarding and fun to me, in part because of the challenge and the gathering of skills I might use later. (And the sense of returning to something I enjoy.)

Maybe later on I'll get over this "honeymoon period" and tire of the work, but for now it's fun, and I sense that it might be fun long-term, meaning that all the work that must be done when cruising may not be wonderful, but do-able and not distracting from the experience. If I were someone who tensed up and starting looking for help whenever water leaked through a deck fitting, then I could see how a long-term cruise could be an onerous proposition.

So yes, it's not a vacation, it's not easy, and there's lots of challenges to overcome, but the idea of this path is very intriguing. I'm keeping the options open.

Jim H


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## TSOJOURNER

*Go now*

This is a great thread. I didn't even know I wanted to go cruising until I met my husband--I was a very happy camper on my little sharpie sailing coastal Carolina. Now we're going together, but late in terms of our ages. We bought a big boat because I had my auntie living with me (you can read about her and us on www.seaventure.us .) She's the one who taught me to sail. And we had a son still at home. My aunt died and the son is away at college, and we still have a very big boat.

But that's okay. I discovered that I can sail 50' as well as my 18' sharpie. It has tons more issues in terms of mechanics and electronics, but that's where my mechanical engineer husband comes in. And we've made Sea Venture user friiendly for old folk. Michael was a Navy pilot--when we bought the boat he assured me that flying the big planes wasn't any more difficult than flying the small jets onto a carrier. You just have to realize the spacial issues. On Sea Venture, I can't fend off a zillion tons of boat, so we have to think of stopping distance and turning ratio. It works.

We didn't have a lot of cash, so we bought old in Mexico and had a lot of work done on her there. In the last two years, Michael has been rebuilding a lot of things I wanted to change to accomodate my height and to make me comfortable. Now, we're going, ready or not. If the CA house hasn't sold by November, we'll rent it. If all the things we want to do aren't finished, too bad. We'll do them in Mexico or Thailand or on an atoll in the Pacific.

If you have the money to buy an almost complete boat and/or the cash to have it fixed by a yard, then waiting isn't a bad idea. If you need to do it slowly so you can afford to do it right, then you may need to plan ahead as we did. We've been frustrated that it's taken this long, but all things work together for good--and we've had a lot of opportunity to do some good for others while we've been here. And M. is a perfectionist. When he finishes rebuilding all the systems, he'll know them, and know they're done right. That's a very comforting thought for both of us.

As not-so-young, the health insurance folk want huge sums, but we've found international insurance that we can buy for out of the country use. Our biggest expense will be boat insurance, but, hey, it will make us sleep more peacefully.

My son plans to cross the Pacific with us and do some island hopping before he jumps ship to spend time in Japan. He graduated from UNC this May and hasn't a clue what to do next with a political science degree. What could be better than seeing a little of the world? Joshua was home schooled until high school, where he finished as valedictorian. Home schooling done right is wonderful preparation.

Blessings to you and good sailing! 
Normandie


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## Jim H

SeaVenture said:


> If you have the money to buy an almost complete boat and/or the cash to have it fixed by a yard, then waiting isn't a bad idea. If you need to do it slowly so you can afford to do it right, then you may need to plan ahead as we did. We've been frustrated that it's taken this long, but all things work together for good


SeaVenture, thanks for your post. I checked out your site, and it's fun. You do have a big boat, and big adventures.

Waiting for us is hard, since it would be fun to find and buy a blue water boat early and start working on it, similar to what you did. We have some property we could sell to finance the boat, or we could do a home equity loan and pay it off, etc. We visit boats that might suit our needs as they come on the market, just to get ideas, but in some ways it's torturous. Whenever things get tough at work, I think "well, if it really hit the fan, then I'd just start cruising immediately." This is both a comforting thought and something of a siren's song.

We don't want to start before we have a good financial plan, but it certainly is tempting. It's also tempting to have "the boat" for several years before the break. For a 38-40 foot boat, however, we'd be looking at monthly mooring fee of at least $240 or so. Multiply that by 12, and we're in for $2880 at least a year. (It would be easier if we were cruising and spending more time on the hook.) For the about the same amount, we can charter a Crealock 34 for two weeks in the San Juans, Desolation Sound, etc. If we toss in maintenance and repairs on annual basis, we could charter 3-4 weeks a year. Hmmm.

There's a thousand roads to choose from, and for each us some are better than others, but none are inherently the best. What I need now is more cruising experience (two weeks this summer, and a bunch of weekend trips), and hopefully more next year (3-4 weeks, I hope). At some point, we'll decide about a big break, but for now I need to balance out the stress of work with the desire to sail, and try to make things complementary for awhile.

It's a tough thing!

Jim H


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## sailingdog

Jim H said:


> We don't want to start before we have a good financial plan, but it certainly is tempting. It's also tempting to have "the boat" for several years before the break. For a 38-40 foot boat, however, we'd be looking at monthly mooring fee of at least $240 or so. Multiply that by 12, and we're in for $2880 at least a year. (It would be easier if we were cruising and spending more time on the hook.) For the about the same amount, we can charter a Crealock 34 for two weeks in the San Juans, Desolation Sound, etc. If we toss in maintenance and repairs on annual basis, we could charter 3-4 weeks a year. Hmmm.


Chartering is a great way to get sailing experience on various different boats, in different areas of the world, without having to sail between them or buy different boats... but it is not the same as owning a boat.

The only problem I see with your plan Jim is the lack of experience in maintenance and the other issues that arise with boat ownership, that do not generally show up if you're just chartering. Cruising, and boat ownership are far more complicated that just chartering, where most everything is maintained for you, the charter company will come and assist you in cases of equipment failure, and the two aren't really comparable.


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## Jim H

sailingdog said:


> The only problem I see with your plan Jim is the lack of experience in maintenance and the other issues that arise with boat ownership, that do not generally show up if you're just chartering.


I agree with this, and although some successful cruisers (like Herb Payson) "jumped" from chartering to successful ownership of a blue water boat, most would have problems with it. I think this is why some people also get stalled with their "need a little work" cruising sailboats, because the cost and complexity of fixing issues can be hard to handle when still working full time.

Thus, we see a fair number of cruising sailboats that were either neglected or had a lot of owner-work on them, but then are sold in 3-5 years after the charm wears off. In the end, many were "cruised" very little, and the cost per cruise is pretty scary (and nonsensical) compared to simply chartering.

In preparing for major projects, I like to "innoculate" with pilot projects. Last summer I spent about 3 months of spare time rebuilding our Cal 20 with my brother. We had a great time, shared the costs, and I learned a ton about fiberglass repairs, epoxy barrier coating, refinishing an iron keel from scratch, replacing interior wood, usingtwo-part deck paints, working with running and standing rigging, finding used sails, etc. The adventure was documented here, and our boat was on display at the Porland Boat Show last January.

The rebuild project cost several thousand, but we sharied the cost and I considered it a sound education investment. We now moor the boat with the local Cal 20 fleet for $50 a month, which we share the cost of.

In January, we also moved on buying a C&C 27 for cruising on the Columbia River with our kids. I also considered this an affordable boat (no loans needed), and we're learning how to maintain an inboard Atomic four, the electrical, water and waste systems, and a much more advanced rig (it came with 14 sails). It's a perfect boat for up to 1-2 weeks on the river with the kids, but it wouldn't be my first choice for going offshore to get up to Puget Sound (although the previous owner did this, carefully).

There's pictures of the boat here, and this afternoon I'm heading out to do some cleaning and maintenace on it. It costs about $85 a month to moor. Next weekend I plan to overnight on the river with it again with some friends. We have a week-long river cruise planned for August.

So, these two boats are our pilot projects, and we sail both of them on a typical week. They are also fulfiilling possible long-term goals of learning and preparing for a longer cruise, but the hard part for us is being patient. As we build our confidence that we could sail, own and maintain a blue water boat, there's a desire to think in that way. Meanwhile, I think it's more sensible to enjoy our two boats, and charter larger boats in the San Juans where they are already in good cruising grounds and are ready to go.

Sorry about the long response-- it's just that I agree that learning about repairing boats and having realistic experience with what it takes to maintain and afford them is pretty critical. I think a lot of people "get the urge" to have "the boat" to start the process, but that's a hard trick to pull.

Jim H


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## sailingdog

Jim-

I'm glad to see that you've also seen the need to learn the practical and technical side of living aboard and cruising. That is something that people who only charter sailboats generally overlook, and it becomes a very rude awakening for them when they do decide to cast off themselves. 

I like the approach you've taken. Fair winds to you.


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## TSOJOURNER

I took a year and cruised with my ex and my now 5 year old. 
I bought an old Hunter Cherubini 37 cutter and refitted it. When the boat was ready we left. We did not live onboard but we did take weekend trips as a family to get used to the concept. 
I also grew up working on engines and so I comfortable fixing the diesel when it acted up. Like many people, I am also handy so I was able to install many of the electrical items and handle the basic brightwork and repairs. I did not skimp on critical items such as rigging. 
Everyone on this thread has given terrific advice. Mine is very simple. It will be the best and worst times of your life. You will be tested in ways you can't imagine. While at the same time you will see the world in a unique and positive way. Do it your way and you will enjoy it.


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## cardiacpaul

Jim, the better half and I are in awe and envious. Her response was:
Would we have to take the kids?" and "two boats and one long rope, one for the kids, one for us"(half joking, I think)

You've got a plan, you'll never have enough money, you'll never be "ready" you'll never "have the time" so just do it! 

Seriously, We think its a wonder thing to do. Good luck to you and yours.
Oh, btw, I just happen to know the location of a couple of reeeeaaaallllyyyy nice Valiants, and an Amel.


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## Jim H

Surfesq said:


> I also grew up working on engines and so I comfortable fixing the diesel when it acted up. Like many people, I am also handy so I was able to install many of the electrical items and handle the basic brightwork and repairs. I did not skimp on critical items such as rigging.
> Everyone on this thread has given terrific advice. Mine is very simple. It will be the best and worst times of your life.


Your points are right on. When looking at boats, I find myself staring harder at the standing rigging and the engine than the hull. I also grew up rebuilding engines-- in Morris Minors, MGBs, etc.

Your last comment reminds me of Don Casey's point in the Sensible Cruising book: you'll experience the highest highs and the lowest lows, but the highs will be worth it.

Thanks!

Jim H


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## Jim H

cardiacpaul said:


> Seriously, We think its a wonder thing to do. Good luck to you and yours.
> Oh, btw, I just happen to know the location of a couple of reeeeaaaallllyyyy nice Valiants, and an Amel.


Thanks-- in a year or so, I might ask you about the Valiants. We still struggle with the "buy the boat right before the cruise" and the "buy the boat 1-2 years before going" question.

For example, last weekend we checked out an Ingrid 38 that had a great price and three years of preparation done to her (new engine, all new electronics, excellent woodwork, good standing rigging, pulled and redone masts, etc.). I ran a thread about the boat with pics on the new SSCA board:

http://64.70.221.24/DiscBoard/viewtopic.php?t=15

Overall, despite some shortcomings, it's a boat that could "do" the cruise we're planning, and we might end up with $40 to 50k more in the kitty if we went with it instead of a Valiant. BUT, it's still too soon. We want offshore expereince in other's boats first, want a complete plan for departure, a solid kitty, time to sell down our possessions and other boats, etc.

You're right we'll never have it perfect, but it was fun to work out a "one year plan," but then re-adjust it to a possible two-year plan. Exciting stuff.

Jim H


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## TSOJOURNER

Hi Jim: I checked out the pictures, it looks like a very nice boat. The question of the boat being a bit tender is interesting. I don't know the engineering reason for this but Island Packets also get over powered very easily. You really have to reef them very early or they just struggle. I suspect that it is the full keel rather than a lack of ballast. But I am sure that there are people like sailingdog or someone like that who would know the answer off the top of their heads.


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## cardiacpaul

Jim, It's a great plan, you run with it! I understand the when to get the boat question, its a questin I runi nto often in my line of work. Heres what I tell them.

"It really doesn't matter to me if you get this boat, or that boat, or wait a year, or never set foot on a boat ever again. But, tomorrow, I'm casting off."
(your situation is indeed different, you really do need to check out a number of potentials before making a commitment of this magnitude) 

For what its worth, I've heard the same thing about the IP's and the Ingrids, and I suspect the full keel as well.


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## Jim H

hersch said:


> If you have the will and the means, don't worry about sailing "around the world" just go out there and sail around...the world.
> 
> Marc
> S/V Songline
> www.SailtheChannel.com


Marc, I read your letter to Latitude 38 this morning while munching breakfast. Nicely done!

It's online at http://www.latitude38.com/letters/200607.htm

Jim H


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## anthonycolfelt

*Full Keel?*



cardiacpaul said:


> For what its worth, I've heard the same thing about the IP's and the Ingrids, and I suspect the full keel as well.


I'm not so sure that the full keel is the issue here. There were plenty good pre-1960s full keel sailboats that can handle plenty of air.

I think perhaps the high aspect ratio vs a shoal draft keel may be an issue as you just don't get the lateral nor heeling resistance that you need in a blow without the leverage of a longer keel. The IPs have a shoal-draft (albeit full) keel, but carry plenty of sail up top.

Is it a matter of physics... less shoal depth requires a lower center of effort?

I'm no naval architect, but my experience is that every shoal-draft boat with a high rig I've sailed has been a bit of a pig in heavy air - requiring a mainsail reef in 20 - 25 knots and less headsail too, to keep her true.


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## TSOJOURNER

Yes, well put. Sailing an IP in heavy air is like sailing in a cork!


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## Jim H

After thinking more about the Ingrid, and looking at a Westsail 32, I feel that it is possible to worry too much about being "slow and seaworthy." The argument made by the editors of Latitude 38 is that "speed is safety," and that an easier to sail performance/cruiser might be a better choice.

For the sake of simplicity, I'd definitely perfer a boat that would sail in lighter airs, and have a basic but strong sloop rig (while still being seaworthy).

With those ideas in mind, the Wauquiez 38s and 35s are interesting as possible blue water boats:

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...A34457%3A138&is=false&incnt=87664&searchtype=

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...A54687%3A138&is=false&incnt=87664&searchtype=

Baring that, with a lot of work, a Cal 40 could be fun (but maybe not strong enough for multiple ocean passages):

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...A38814%3A223&is=false&incnt=87664&searchtype=

Back on the heavier, pure cruiser front, the Allied Princess is interesting:

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...3A47198%3A41&is=false&incnt=87665&searchtype=

For me, the Ingrid and Westsails are aesthetically pleasing, and match the recommendations of most of the older cruiser books (heavy is safe), but it's hard to discount the truth that they are not necessarily easy boats to sail, and things like full keels and long bowsprits are not fun in close quarters and other situations.

Jim H


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## sailingdog

Jim H-

I am wondering why you think a Cal 40 is not strong enough for multiple ocean passages. The Cal 40 is one of the more successful ocean going racing designs...granted an older one...but of very good lineage. It may not be the most modern design...but is most definitely a most capable bluewater boat.


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## Jim H

sailingdog said:


> I am wondering why you think a Cal 40 is not strong enough for multiple ocean passages. The Cal 40 is one of the more successful ocean going racing designs...granted an older one...but of very good lineage. It may not be the most modern design...but is most definitely a most capable bluewater boat.


My thoughts are that any given Cal 40 may or may not be a good choice, based on the following:

1) These boats were made in the 1960s, and many have been raced and cruised hard. How long can the strength of deck fittings and the hull/deck joint be expected to last, for example?

2) The "Construction" section of the Practical Sailor review makes it clear that there could be structural issues with Cal 40s. The tabbing of the wooden structures to the hull was light, and probably needs to be reinforced. The original design was to lighten the boat by making these structures integral to the strength of the hull, and failure of these bonds could be a big problem. The hull skin construction was also relatively light, with a tendency to oilcan in heavy weather, resulting in possible hull-deck leaks.

Now, these issues can obviously be addressed, or Cal 40s wouldn't be as popular as they are today for racing, but I also know that I probably won't have the war chest of funds and time that many racers have for reinforcing and maintaining a 1960s boat.

Thus, I think a Cal 40 could be a good choice, or a bad choice, based on previous care issues. In the end, however, we are talking about 40 year old boats, meaning that just about anything original on the boat could have a ? mark over it. I already have a 1967 and 1973 boat, and I wouldn't mind breaking into the 1980s someday... 

Jim H


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## infonote

Since in 5 years, you will probably encounter a storm, this should be helpful.

http://www.ezinearticles.com/?Prepare-Your-Yacht-for-a-Major-Storm&id=238742


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## Cruisingdad

*Kids and boats*

I enjoyed reading through the thoughts on the boats & cruising with kids.  I am scared to present my thougths here in fear of getting nailed by a lot of true-blue old salt sailors... but we have kids, have lived aboard with them, and are soon to head out back to to florida and continue doing it again. My kiddos are young (6 & 2). I find it interesting that many of my thoughts differ from many of those of folks that have cruised much longer than I have and have probably cirlcled the world a couple of times. Sometimes we only cirlced the first buoy before turning around again and heading back to dock. But I have found that with kids, a lot of things changed.

Here are some thoughts I am sure I will get laughed for... (but I have been there, believe it or not)... so, here it goes:

1) I like newer and beamier boats versus the old (and new) narrow boats. I know Valiant's very well. In fact, my current boat is at Cedar Mills (where they make the Valiant). I know the people personally. My last boat was outfitted by them. Awesome boats. Awesome people. Awesome possibilities. Awesomly SMALL!! They keep trying to talk me into buying one, but it is not so much the money (and yes they are not cheap), but A V50 is smaller than my boat down below. Now, I know what everyone is going to say about passage making, storms, need for storage, etc, (and yes, they are better built boats in almost every respect).... but remember what a really good friend told me: you spend 99% of your time at anchor and 1% at sea or passagemaking. If you are sailing to Tahiti and circumnavigating, buy a V40 or 50. Primarily coastal with 1-2 day day jaunts offshore... buy a Catalina or a Beneteau or a IP or something with a lot of room. WHY???? You will need it with the kids. Everyone needs their own space to escape to and get away. You and the wife? Not a problem. You and the kids... well, as Winnie the Pooh said, you will need your "thinking spot!"

2) Plan more short jaunts than offshore passages. Don't know how old your kids are... but mine get really bored after a while. I let them steer. I have them tend the lines. We watch for dolphins and always keep an eye pealed for pirates and mermaids!! But give them a piece of the boat and let them be a part. Also, short runs are better than long runs... even if it is just across the bay! For us, we find good places with shorelines to let them run on the beach and let the dog, er, well, you know.

3) One of the key differenes b/t a "offshore" boat and a typical modern "production" boat is fuel and water. You can buy a bladder for the fuel. Water... you got kids... buy a water maker. Just go ahead and budget it. A few trips hauling gerry-cans around and you will totally understand. Might also consider buying an icemaker. They are cheap (but big). Still, you will be the most popular person in the anchorage!

4) Sleeping arrangements. Each kiddo needs his own little private spot that is all his to escape to, trash up, sleep in, etc. I am not suggesting a 3 cabin arrangement, I am just telling you to put that into your thoughts when you are looking at boats. We split the V-berth in half for them with a board seperating them. I might be able to work out a picture to explain.

5) Find other boats cruising around with kids. Our best friends in the world we met on another boat.

There are a whole lot of other thoughts I have, but this has gotten really long. PS... I did not wait. We bought the boat first and outfitted her and spent the week and weekends on her before and after living aboard. Every boat handles differently. Don't get a tender boat. You will hate it come the first storm... your kids will hate it more.

I welcome your thoughts if I can help. We will be back in Florida in about 4-5 months at the current plan. I am an advocate of kids and boating.


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## Jim H

Cruisingdad said:


> Here are some thoughts I am sure I will get laughed for... (but I have been there, believe it or not)... so, here it goes:


Hey, no laughing from me. For the type of sailing with kids you describe, I think you're dead-on.

When I think of cruising with kids, three different types come to mind:

*Type 1.* Living aboard, but only doing local sailing.

*Type 2.* Living full or part-time aboard, but doing coastal cruising with 1-2 day off-shore jaunts.

*Type 3. *Living aboard and doing long-distance cruising, crossing oceans.​
All three are great ideas, in my mind, but each has different challenges and costs.

For the first type, I'd buy a massive Taiwan-made boat with cabins for everyone. I'd worry more about the below deck systems (dual heads, refrigeration, heating, etc.) that the above deck rigging and sails. Seaworthiness would be secondary, since we wouldn't leave the dock often. At most, we'd do a once-a-year hop to Puget Sound, if we could get a month off to make it worth it.

For the second type of cruising, I think your advice makes perfect sense. The strengths and benefits of a Valiant 40 or 50 probably wouldn't be worth the trade-offs in terms of interior comforts, weight and costs. A decent and sizeable coastal cruiser makes sense, safe for brief off-shore hops, but not made for multiple ocean passages.

I think both of the first two types of crusing with kids are great ideas for some familes, and have great benefits. For us, though, neither really fit. We have a comfortable house now that is appreciating nicely, so we're not really interested in just living aboard.

As for coastal cruising with kids, it's an excellent idea, but we live over 100 miles upstream from the Pacific on the Columbia River, so owning a solid coastal cruiser simply for river cruising would be overkill (our C&C 27 is fine for one week river cruises). In our case, chartering a nice coastal cruiser for two weeks a year in Puget Sound, or the California Channel Islands, or Mexico, makes more sense for coastal cruising with kids. We just go back from our first week-long charter, and we had a fantastic time.

If we're lucky, my wife and I will come to our senses and decide that two weeks of chartering each year satisfies our wanderlust (along with the weekly local sailing we do). If not, then I'm afraid we're on a slippery slope into the the third type of cruising with kids, when we take a 1-5 year break from our careers and really try to go places. We realize that everything we do now might be contributing to that future, but the reality of it (having a real bluewater boat, yet making the experience fun and rewarding for everyone in the family) is a tall order. From sleeping space to seaworthiness to boat schooling to finances.

Who knows-- maybe it's the massively complex and complicated challenge of the whole idea that's attracting us, either to our demise or success. The risks are real (such as liquidating the house and losing a major appreciating asset), so we're more on the "slow route" of building up experience and planning.

The learning curve of our kids is just as important as our own, since we want our daugther to be as excited and engaged in cruising as our fishing-crazy son. If she hates it, we should stop at Type 2. No harm in that-- just reality and equity. We don't need a decision on this for a couple of years, however, so the jury is still out. How we build experiences will be key.

Thanks for your long and thoughtful reply.

Jim H


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## seame

Jim,
With over 60,000 deep water miles, 20+ years at sea, 2 children born on board, a variety of ports and occupations along the way, I would say there is no such thing as bad timing. Whether you buy a boat and live on it for a while before cruising or simply head out to sea makes little difference.

What I found to be true is that if you wait until everything is ready, you will never go. If you wait until you have enough money you will never leave.

There comes a time when you must simply throw off the dock lines and trust that things will work out. You will finish en route or live without. Read all you can, but take it all with a grain of salt. Everyone's experience is different.

We raised our children on board, we spent lots of time in port and lots of time at sea. It is all good! 

seame


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## TSOJOURNER

It is so fun reading everyone's take on cruising with kids! Well, we are diving into boat life head first now. We have just finalized the purchase of our new home (Transpac 49) and have a sale pending on our land home. We will be living in Olympia, Wa. for a while and cruising all over the Puget Sound and up to Canada. In 2012 we, along with our friends on their boat, will be cutting the lines and heading out to the South Pacific. Many may ask, "why 2012, why wait?" We just came up with the year one night out on their boat. I know I am not ready to go yet. I have a lot to learn about our new boat and sailing before I'm comfortable cruising out into the "big blue" with the kids. I really like the idea of living aboard and getting used to the homeschooling thing for a few years before we go. I have to say though, if something changes with my husband's job, it may be the perfect excuse to go sooner.  I think it's hard to really prepare for cruising with kids, but better to just sail as much as possible and when the time is right, everything will fall into place and feel "right". Jim, you and your family seem to me to be cut out for cruising. I'm sure it will probably happen sooner rather than later!


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## Jim H

seame said:


> Jim,
> With over 60,000 deep water miles, 20+ years at sea, 2 children born on board, a variety of ports and occupations along the way, I would say there is no such thing as bad timing. Whether you buy a boat and live on it for a while before cruising or simply head out to sea makes little difference.
> seame


Seame,

Thanks for the comments-- I'm more than impressed by your sea miles AND having two kids born on-board. Two things that I find hard to do are sailing and parenting. Both are mental and physical work-outs for me, but I'm motivated to keep learning and moving forward. I'm sure that some are naturals at both compared to me, but I think both have my attention because I know I have to stretch to achieve much at either (even when parenting means backing away and not getting involved-- hard thing to do).

Looking forward, we're still open to the live aboard for a year before leaving. I like the idea of having the boat for a year for local sailing and working own while I still have a full income. If the house were gone during that year, we'd have extra income for improvements, but we don't want "marina life" to be too much of a trial. In the end, living aboard for that year may be unrealistic, as we know several who have bought large boats only to work on them for nine or more months before even doing the second sail. Living on a boat while it's refurbished doesn't sound realistic.

I also agree with you about "waiting until all's perfect." In the end, we only achieve what we allow ourselves to achieve. All other blocks are excuses.

Jim H


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## Jim H

sailor12 said:


> We have just finalized the purchase of our new home (Transpac 49) and have a sale pending on our land home. We will be living in Olympia, Wa. for a while and cruising all over the Puget Sound and up to Canada. In 2012 we, along with our friends on their boat, will be cutting the lines and heading out to the South Pacific.


Wow, Sailor12, this sounds like an impressive plan. I pulled up a web page on your Transpac 49, and she looks like a serious cruiser. I see you're currently in Portland, OR. If you've ever heard of OWSA (Oregon Women's Sailing Association), you might have met my wife Steph, who's the current secretary of the group.

I did wonder "why 2012" when you mentioned it-- six years is a while off. You didn't mention the age of your kids, but I bet they're a bit younger than ours (our daughter is seven, and son is nine). If we wait until 2012, our son will in high school, which may not be a bad time to go. (It worked for John McGrady in Sailing the Dream). At the same time, I think I'd like crusing best if the kids were closer to middle school age. Old enough to stand watches, but not so old as to want to jump ship at every port... 

I think you're right that sailing as much as possible is important, and I'd toss in "working on the boat" as well. Today my son and I cleaned and gapped the plugs in our gas Atomic 4, filled the gas tank, installed a new water temp guage, finished the rebuild of the head, verified the macerator was working, and put in the last bronze screw securing a deck handrail. Tomorrow, our family casts off for a two-night cruise on the river to St. Helens and then **** Island on the way back.

At night, we look at Cal 40s, Morgan 382s, Valiant 40s, Hughes Northstar 38s, Allied Mistresses and other "maybe boats" online. I could see things fall into place fast or slow, but I don't see a waning of interest...

Thanks, and good luck with your liveaboard and crusing plans. Let us know what it's like to take that Transpac 49 around Puget Sound.

Jim H


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## TSOJOURNER

Hey Jim. I had never heard of the OWSA. I wish I had checked it out before now! I know Seattle has a sailing association, but I'd rather be involved in Olympia. I have to say though, I probably wouldn't have been much of a participant in the OWSA. My husband's job had him working a rotten schedule, so anytime I wanted to do classes or the like, I'd have to get a babysitter, which i'm sure you and your wife know how expensive that is these days! Fortunately, things are really looking up for us, and I will hopefully get a chance to dive into the sailing scene in Olympia. We also have been crazed with fixing up our home for the last 2 years (1912 old portland 4square). Bummer that once we have it looking so nice, we move! Well, I really can't complain, I'm so excited to move aboard. I have so much to learn about the boat and sailing. I'm hoping that my confidence level will go up and possibly lead to leaving earlier on our cruise (if it works for our friends). Our kids are 7 and 4, so we are kind of shooting for that middle school age for the cruise. We are so fortunate that our friends that we will be buddy cruising with have 2 children around the same age as ours. In the time before we leave on the "big cruise", we will be doing tons of PNW cruising. Once we get a chance to catch our breath we are going to start a web site about our family "adventures". I will definitly share it once we get it up and running. 

Happy sailing!
Shari


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## TSOJOURNER

First, get rid of the kids


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## TSOJOURNER

Cruising Dad: Don't worry about the people on this site who think they know everything about boats. Just ask your questions and take *everything* anyone has to say with a grain of salt. 
As for boats, I think you are right, Valiants are beautiful and tough boats. But they are designed in a very traditional way that does not make for a lot of room. I think an Island Packet might suit your needs. Its sturdy and well built but also has a lot of room. On the other hand, with kids, a center cockpit with a private master suite and bathroom would be very sweet. 
I don't have the kind of experience that Seame has, (wow!), but I did cruise for a year with my wife and 4 year old. It was truly a blast and I wish we could have gone longer.


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## Jim H

*Quick Update*

Here's a quick update on our plans:

Instead of chartering the Islander 28 for two weeks next summer, I believe we're going to charter for only one week. However, we also plan to sign up for the week-long Advanced Coastal Cruising course, which should result in the ASA 105 and ASA 106 certifications (Coastal Navigation and Advanced Coastal Cruising). The course includes overnight watches, offshore prep, etc.

We'll do the weeklong charter with the kids, and then my wife and I will take turns doing the weeklong course (so we don't have to find kid coverage for a week). My wife likes the idea of us both having the same certifications at the same time. We're both looking forward to studying for the course over the winter, just like we did for the other ASA courses, and I just ordered the latest Annapolis Book of Seamanship from Amazon.

The goal here is to have more practice and experience with semi-offshore conditions before we commit to an off-shore capable boat. For me, at least, it's hard to wait, but it makes sense to gain the experience first. We really liked the cost-to-value ratio of this boat, but such opportunities come and go and we'll make a better final decision after more experience. We also have some other sailing opportunities coming up next year "on other people's boats" that I hope we can take advantage of.

At this time next year, we might be ready to make a comittment to "the next boat," and maybe a month off the following summer for an off-shore hop to Puget sound, some cruising, and a hop back. Hmmmm.

Jim H
PDX
C&C 27, Bailiwick


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## chris_gee

Hmm. I guess a lot of people who read this site (myself included) have some fantasy of major cruising. Some do it. Most don't.
Those who say go early, and don't let life pass you by have a point - except that it isn't passing you by now. You make one choice for your life or the other, different yes but in the long run who knows?
Most are constrained financially - perhaps falsely do they need an expensive house? Do they exercise prudence or conservative attachment to material things? Depends I guess on life stage etc etc.
I doubt cruising on a low budget is mainly tropical islands and sunsets, more likely patches of boredom, hassles, and confinement plus adventure etc.
Although many kids thrive in such an environment, and if younger simply accept it as normal, my main query would be whose fantasy is this? How old are the kids and how do they and your wife accept it?
I am not being a doubtful Thomas - most setting out on such an endeavour abandon it quite quickly. So while I support you in entertaining the idea I suggest that you try it for a while rather than making 5 years your initial goal. if you decide to continue for a time after say 6 months in the Pacific well and good. If you don't well and good. But at least it lowers the ante. Apart from that I would not like to predict the US property market over the next year let alone 5.


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## Jim H

Chris_g,

You raise a lot of points I've considered. Both the wife and the kids have "veto power" over the plans. So far, my wife is fully engaged in our run-up planning, but she'd admit that if she doesn't like off-shore sailing then our plans will change. As for the kids, if one of them really hates it, then we'll doing sailing that they do like until they are older and in college. 

We've been working on the groundwork for about 18 months now, and as noted we're going for more experience and certifications before going further. As my wife notes, if the kids are involved, then there's no room for not knowing what we're doing. I'm encouraged by recent threads on Sailnet about the importance of knowledge, experience and confidence. I'm more concerned about having strong and healthy deposits in those accounts before investing much in "the boat." 

As noted earlier in the thread, the "five year plan" could end at any point, but that doesn't mean we "quit sailing." At this point, I could see us sailing and cruising locally, and chartering pretty much anywhere we want, for the foreseeablle future. It's not a bad consolation prize if we discover that big trips and big water aren't for us. 

All options are open-- we're not the types to buy a 52 footer and restore it for many years before discovering what we really want to do.

Jim H


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## sailingdog

JimH... I'd really recommend you get and read Changing Course, and then give it to your wife.  It is an excellent book for any one who wants to go cruising long-term and has to show why it makes sense to their spouse.


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## jswwrites

I don't know that I'd give veto power to 7 and 9 year olds, but definitely to your spouse! My husband and I own a business together and have homeschooled for 7 years. Most people say that they don't know how we can all be in the house at the same time, much less work together -- and I say, truthfully, that it's not for everybody. 

As far as the kids go, I would agree with cruisingdad that they definitely need a space of their own for any lengthy cruise (lengthy being 2 weeks or more, esp since they are different sexes). I wouldn't worry too much about boredom - it's a very frequent complaint with kids who go from school to homeschooling, since they are used to having their entire day scheduled and you can do even a full high school academic load homeschooling in 3-4 hrs a day. Elementary school, probably 1-2 hours a day. You do need other things for them to do - a box of things to make crafts with, paper for writing and drawing, books, audio books...plan to have storage space allotted for those types of things.

Good luck! I've enjoyed reading about your dreams. I spent 6 weeks on the Newport 33 my grandmother recently gave me back in 1985, and it was still one of the best times I can remember.


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## Jim H

jswwrites said:


> Is far as the kids go, I would agree with cruisingdad that they definitely need a space of their own for any lengthy cruise (lengthy being 2 weeks or more, esp since they are different sexes).
> 
> Good luck! I've enjoyed reading about your dreams. I spent 6 weeks on the Newport 33 my grandmother recently gave me back in 1985, and it was still one of the best times I can remember.


Thanks, JSW

I've also been thinking about the advice for separate spaces, and also the drawbacks of canoe sterns in terms of space. For example, all of us like to bicycle, and we currently have a small fleet of well-made bikes to ride. For cruising, I'd like to have four Bike Friday travel bikes, but even folded up they'll need space.

At the moment, I'm also thinking that a newer boat, perhaps one after 1988 with vinylester resins, might be a better investment if we're going to own for 10 years. That criteria knocks out a lot of fine boats, and we might change our mind and still go with a late seventies or early eighties boat, but for now we're researching Island Packet 38s and Caliber 38s that are in the $130-150k asking price range. This is a lot more than the $50k Ingrids and Cascade 42s we looked at, but possibly a good move even if the cruising kitty is altered.

One thng is for certain-- we like cruising. We just got back from another excellent weekend cruise (pictures here), and even my 7 year-old daughter is enjoying every trip more and more.

At the docks on Saturday night, we joined some local yachties for cookies in a warm Ericson 32 cabin, and we heard stories of coastal cruising. They took the E-32 off-shore to Puget Sound for eight weeks, for example. The rest of the year, they sail and cruise locally at Portland, Oregon. The three couples we met all had newer ('89 and younger) boats in the 32-34 foot range, which is about right for the hop off the coast in summer to cruise the San Juans, Desolation Sound, or even the inside passage to Alaska.

In retrospect, their plans aren't bad. The boats aren't cheap, but they still have their jobs for income. They take longer breaks in the summers to cruise, but they have the rest of the year with affordable moorage rates and opportunities to sail.

As I was thinking of our "big trip plans," I wondered if it wouldn't be bad to follow their pattern if we can't make the big break. For example, if we go for a multi-year cruise in few years, we'd almost certainly have to restart our careers when we got back. If we summer cruised with the kids for another decade, we'd have most of our financial commitments done, solid college accounts for the kids (started them years ago), and we could pick a boat that was more for mom and dad and occasional kids, instead of a true family ark. You know, something simple like a 2006 Hallberg Rassy 342... 

Anyway, it was fun to hear how others cruise part-year. The risks in waiting may outweigh the benefits, but its an alternative we'll always have. My wife is refreshing her Spanish, and she'd like to help with schools in Mexico when we cruise (following up on a Cruisng World article we just read). If we did wait, I'd want to upsize from our '27 in a few years to something in the 32-34 foot range, but that would be a big decision. For now, we're weighing and chasing options, and studying for our next ASA certifications next year.

Thanks!

Jim H
PDX
Bailiwick, a C&C 27


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## jswwrites

Sounds lovely! Our long cruise to the Bahamas (way back when!) was in the summer, and just a wonderful time. I hope that we will be able to do similar trips with some/all of our kids, although we will be staying around NC for the next year or so. While a 5 year cruise would certainly give the kids an experience they'll never forget, I can tell you from my own memories that even a 1-2 month trip can live on!


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## Jim H

jswwrites said:


> While a 5 year cruise would certainly give the kids an experience they'll never forget, I can tell you from my own memories that even a 1-2 month trip can live on!


I've heard this from others as well, and it's encouraging in case we don't do a big break with the kids. There's all sorts of "common sense" factors in favor of shorter cruising while keeping the careers, but the wanderlust is strong.

A new idea just came on our radar. We haven't sent in a deposit yet for the two-week charter next year in the San Juans, and the cost of the charter and the two ASA certifcations for both of us is going to cost some (approximately $5k). I've been picking some fun, extra work lately to help cover this, but it passed my mind that we might invest it differently.

Our C&C 27 has done the offshore hop from the Columbia River to Puget sound in the past, and it was prepped for it with new rigging, emergency rudder and other safety investments. We're tempted to "upgrade" our winter work on the boat to include more enhancements (like a new Garmin 376c chartplotter, new CQR, new thru-hulls, extra engine work), and possibly plan to take it north next summer instead of chartering. I could likely get a 3 week break, and the kids would join us for a week or more in Puget Sound but not the offshore hops.

Anyway, we're anxious for a safe offshore trip for experience, and we're finding ourselves increasingly relaxed and confident with the boat. My wife still wants her ASA certifications first, but that could be done in early summer. Our trip would be late July to early August. The expensive part of the plan is buying/renting a EPIRB and suitable life raft. We might be able to borrow some exposure suits for the trip, and could hire a delivery skipper if needed.

So, we're pondering it as we work on the boat (removed and rebedded the bow pulpit just today). It would be a "bigger step" than chartering again, but it would be great to feel the accomplishment. It also makes the winter boat work more fun.

Jim H


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## Jim H

A quick update on our plans so far:

We considered a lot of options this month, because Dec. 31st was the deadline for making charter reservations for next year at this year's rates. We researched the costs of upgrading our C&C 27 for an off-shore hop to Puget Sound, we researched putting in a bid on local Pearson 10M and prepping it for the off shore hop, and we considered chartering the Islander 28 again in the San Juans for two weeks. The Islander 28 was the same one we chartered for a week last July.

We learned a lot about how to prep for the offshore hop from the Columbia River bar and going north, but the cost of the upgrades and safety gear on the C&C 27 is beyond the cost of chartering, and may not be recovered when we sell the boat in the future.

I still really like the Pearson 10M, but we'd lose a lot of cash on the loan, owning 2.5 sailboats for awhile, and upgrade costs on the 10M. For a multi-year boat that was fun for both local sailing and going north for a month or two, I think the 10M would be an affordable and worthwhile investment of time and effort. I'm trying hard to forget about it... It wouldn't be the best boat size-wise for a longer sailing sabbatical to Mexico and beyond with two kids, but...

So, in terms of return on investment, we've reserved the Islander 28 for two weeks and we plan to sail the Gulf Islands in Puget Sound for most of the time. We'll learn about customs clearance, stern ties and a host of other cruising issues with a two-week trip that doesn't break the bank. The rest of the time, we'll do a bit of racing with our C&C 27 and try to master every sail we have for her (14 in total).

Additionally, we have the funds for my wife to do a week long learning cruise next year for her ASA 105 and 106 ratings. I'll do it the following year. In summer 2008, we hope to charter a Crealock 34 for two weeks and do an overnight passage to Desolation Sound. If we can resist buying a larger boat, of course.

Beyond that, cost-wise, it's probably better to master our 27 and charter boats in the next size up. We need to find out if we're going to do a major break with the kids, and if we do then we'll need at least a 37-40 foot boat (which would be less than great for local day sails and weekend cruising on the Columbia River). I have to admit that I was impressed by this Spencer 42: simple, strong and a serious rebuild of major systems and hidden areas.

One question: the other wrench in our plans is a possible work opportunity in London for 2 or more years. It's strangely attractive, but I haven't figured out what we would do sailing-wise in England yet. I remember a reference to a good discussion board about sailing in the UK, but I can't find it. Any recommendations?

Thanks, and we're having a great time planning our two weeks in Puget Sound already. The kids are both swimmers now, and my daughter has been exceptionally relaxed during heeling on our last couple of daysails. Things are looking up!

Jim H


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## Tartan34C

To get a feel for sailing and living aboard in England try this discussion board www.ybw.com/forums/ubbthreads.php I have sailed in/to England several times and enjoyed both the people and the sailing.
Good luck and all the best,
Robert Gainer


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## Jim H

Thanks, Robert. That was the exact discussion board I was looking for.

At first glance, it's cool that the Trapper 500 is commonly referred to there, which is basically the C&C 27 that we own now. It would be funny to own or charter a Trapper 500 if we lived there. 

Secondly, it does appear common to own a boat that is an hour or more away from where one lives. I think I'm spoiled now with my boat being about a 25 minute drive away.

Thanks again,

Jim H


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## labatt

Jim -

We have similar plans, except we'll be leaving in June of 2009 with our two kids (who will be 12 1/2 and 8 1/2 when we leave). I sailed (raced) while growing up, but my wife only sailed once prior to this past summer. We purchased a Precision 23 (currently for sale) last year so I could teach the family how to sail. It's wonderful teaching on a smaller boat since you have to react to everything so fast. On a larger boat, everything slows down. We just purchased a Passport 40 a few months ago, and we plan to purchase something in the 48-55ft range, ICW capable, tri-cabin+office, at the 2007 Annapolis boat show (at which point we'll be selling our Passport 40). The interim Passport is so we can learn about systems - refrigeration, DC electrics, diesel, etc. before we go to our final boat.

Our current plan is to start at Cape Cod, Massachussets in June of 2009, sail north for a while and wait hurricane season out, then head south as far as we have time for. We expect our cruise to be completed by August of 2010, if we don't decide to keep going . I'm actually going to still be running my business from my boat, but I'll be leaving someone trusted in charge of day to day operations during my absence. I'll always be a flight away.

Just a couple of thoughts regarding boat selection, since we're actively researching right now. Older bluewater boats are going to be small. You mentioned looking at an IP38 earlier. We looked at these and they are SMALL on the inside!! I'm not a fan of Beneteau's, and Catalina's are decent, but if you are looking for a bluewater boat that has similar accomodations to these production coastal cruisers, you have to go with a more recent vintage. We won't be looking at anything but bluewater boats since I'll gladly trade speed for stability and safety. I like nice deep bilges! 

Another thing to think about - sleeping arrangements. We've decided that we will only look at center cockpit boats. If we're going to spend several years in close proximity to our kids, we want mucho separation. A center cockpit will give us a good sized aft cabin (allowing a large bunk) separated from the forward cabins. In addition, we're looking to have top over bottom singles (i.e. bunk beds) in one of the cabins. This way, if we have guests, we can double the kids up in the one cabin. It's funny - we've explored many good sized boats with huge queen berths in the V, and a small cabin with top over bottom, and both of our kids want the smaller room with the bunk beds! 

Look at how much room you have for batteries. A boat with kids on it, on a long cruise, will use a lot more amp hours than a boat without kids. With homeschooling, we expect to have our computer going (maybe two) for many hours per day, a printer and a satellite connection to the Internet. Kids leave lights on (regardless of how much training you do) and you'll probably have the TV running on rainy days. Don't underestimate how much space you'll need for batteries.

Get really good heads. We'll be using Lavacs. Kids will flush random things down heads, and then try to hide the clog with a roll of toilet paper. Lavacs will process almost anything.

Consider how big your storage areas or, preferably, deck accessible lazarettes are. This is a huge consideration for us. We want our kids to be able to bring their bikes with them, and my wife (a triathlete) has two bikes she wants to bring. We're primarily looking at custom boats just so we can build in large lazarettes.

These are just a few of the things we've considered as we get closer to our leave date. Currently, the Passport 515CC is tops on our list for our final boat. Good luck with your trip!

Chris


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## Jim H

Chris, thanks for the detailed and thoughtful reply.

I'm impressed by your plans on a lot of levels. First, you seem to be moving fast if you wife only started sailing recently, and it's cool that you already have a 23 and a 40, with plans for ordering a 51 in 2007. This suggests to me that you're both serious and progressively moving forward with real momentum. Second, it's clear that your cruising plans include continuing to work from the boat, with a tentative stop date that might change. Third, you're really including the kids in learning to sail, choose their living spaces and other details, which is great.

I've been reading a lot of family cruising accounts lately, and it's cool that there are so many variations. Compared to the family that went out on a Cal 25, your plan is much more sophisticated. A local family that is doing a two year Pacific loop on a brand-new 49 foot Jenneau is a little ahead of you. We're all different, but we're all the same tribe. 

Our family's approach is more downshifted and less aggressive, at least at this stage. I'm lucky in that my wife loves to sail, without me when possible...  However, she's also more practical and wants a gradual run-up to major cruising plans. No off-shore boats for us, for example, until she's gone offshore and is sure she likes it. She's already captained our Cal 20 in a series of races, and wants to do the same with our C&C 27. My son is excited about a third summer of Opti sailing, and even my daughter is talking about sailing on her own in the near future. 

If anything, our love of sailing (all types) might delay the start of "dedicated cruising," but that doesn't matter as long as we're having fun and learning. It's the foundation that's important now, or maybe the journey instead of the destination. 

As for the boat we'll eventually have, my ideas on the topic change all the time. There are times when I think your approach is perfect (especially if I could afford something as radically nice as a new Passport), and I think about boats that have an excellent aft cabin, two heads, and a dedicated shower stall. 

Then the next week, my thinking reverses. We see cruising as an adventure at this point, and not a lifestyle, so we're not as concerned about having three cabins and major electrical systems. Our current cruising plans are for weeks with the kids on a 28 footer, with maybe a move to a 34, and this year we had no problem with a fair number of overnights on our 27 and a full week on the 28. Even when we're not on a boat, we vacation in yurts and other small small spaces without family conflicts. In fact, the kids like the experience of the closeness and have been "roughing it" all their lives. 

Anyway, I think Cam and others are right when they say the "camping" part of cruising can become intolerable for longer or open-ended trips for most people, and a 40 plus boat may be essential. I just need to find out if we're "most people" or not. From a cost, simplicity and time standpoint, if we could successfully cruise on a smaller/newer boat, I think I'd be a happy guy. If not, then we'll be deciding on a boat more like you plan to have (in our price range).

Thanks-- and I hope you make a web site or keep us informed about your progress. BTW, how much have you sailed your Passport 40? It's one that I'd consider for our "big trip" based on reviews, but I haven't been aboard one yet.

Jim H


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## camaraderie

Chris...the passports are wonderful boats but the spec on the 51 Vista is a 6'6" draft and my guess is that the mainsail on a sloop og that size is over 65' as well. You said you were looking for ICW compatibility. Does that mean you will give it up if you get the Passport or will they do something customized for you? 
Actually looking at your specifications right down to the bunk beds...it sounds like my boat (Tayana 52) would be exactly right. There were only a few ketch versions built but it may be worthwhile to include it on your yacht world search list. I was looking at Hylas and Passport and Taswell when we found her and I would judge her build quality as equal to any of them of the same vintage. 
They too have moved to deck saloons in the last few years but I understand that they will still build CC's on request if you are looking for new....I don't think their build quality today is quite equal to Passport today but neither is the price and they are still lovely,go anywhere boats. They will do anything you want inside the boat in terms of layout as long as they can work around the structural bulkheads.


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## labatt

Cam - We've actuall reviewed the 515 hard.. prior to buying the Passport 40 we spoke with Thom Wagner, the owner of Passport, and we'll be going down to FL for a test sail on his personal boat (515CC) this Winter. The 515 has a 5'7" shoal draft available, and the air draft is ICW compatible. Thom actually said the boat was designed with the ICW in mind. Honestly, though, with a boat like that it's almost irrelavant as to whether we take the inside route or the easier way around - just depends on where we want to stop.

I talked to the Tayana guys at the Annapolis boat show and was really put off by their attitude. All they could do was slam Passport, and they even made several false statements regarding how it's built. If I'm going to spend upwards of $800k on a boat, I want to feel good about the people I'm buying from, and I didn't get a warm fuzzy from the Tayana crowd. We also looked at the Cabo Rico. They don't have one built yet, but they will be releasing their 47 as a CC.

The Hylas boats were nice, but were pricier than the Passport and I couldn't find a reason to pay it. We also looked at Morris, at the new Amel (the faux teak decks SUCK!) and a few others. I'll take a look at the used Tayana 52's out there since you recommend them!

We're actually still torn about new vs. used. Most of the time when we've looked at the used market, after you add some refitting and upgrades, it's almost as much as a new boat, but without a warranty. We're looking at more recent boats in the used market since the older bluewater boats just aren't very roomy on the inside.

We have an incredible broker (this guy is one of the nicest people we've ever worked with, and is very good at what he does) in Annapolis (Bill Day from Martin Bird) who we have to send our specs to so he can keep an eye out for us.


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## labatt

Jim - it sounds great with what you're doing. I'd love to tell you lots of great things about the Passport 40 sailing characteristics, but we haven't sailed her yet . When we went down for the sea trials, it was blowing 40kts and the owner wasn't on board, and she had a weird reef setup, so we didn't want to put the sails up. She motors real well though . Here is what I can tell you - EVERY single person (and I'm not exaggerating) who has worked on her has said it is one of the best built boats they have had the opportunity to work on. It's very comfortable on the inside, and the outside. Storage is absolutely incredible - there's an 8x10 area under the cockpit that is totally empty - you could fit 10 people back there! There are two versions of her layout. One version has a V-Berth with a head just aft of it. The other version has the head in the V and a pullman berth. While the pullman berth LOOKS nicer, don't even try to use the head in that model while underway. I'll be splashing her at the very beginning of March so I'll let you know how she is. If you'd like to see some pictures of ours, go to http://labatt.dandd.com/v/non-art/passport40/

Yes, we do have a very agressive timeframe for our trip. Since we're primarily focusing on a coastal cruise we think we can get going and learn a lot on the way. My wife finds sailing enjoyable, but she finds how close it makes our family even more enjoyable. She is uncomfortable handling the boat in a breeze still, but by the end of last summer she was getting more and more confident. I know that she'll be even more confident on our larger, heavier boat.

At the end of April, beginning of May, we'll be doing an offshore passage from Annapolis to NYC and then up the Hudson to Lake Champlain. We'll have a couple of qualified sailors with us (our broker and also a friend of mine, both having done this passage several times), and we're looking forward to several days of watch standing. We're taking her offshore just to get the experience. We're leaving the kids at home. The P40 is very well equipped safety wise, and I'll be renting a life raft, but I digress.

I envy you in your ability to approach cruising in a spartan fashion. I wish I was able to do that. I've already started a blog but there are only a few entries.

I hope you, too, will keep us up to date on your plans and approaches. I find what people post here to be incredibly helpful in our own preparations, so my motivations are a bit selfish in nature! One of our goals, once we start our trip, is to meet as many east coast Sailnet (and a couple of other boards we belong to) members as possible, in person.

Chris


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## Jim H

labatt said:


> At the end of April, beginning of May, we'll be doing an offshore passage from Annapolis to NYC and then up the Hudson to Lake Champlain.
> 
> Chris


Sounds like fun, and the pictures of your Passport are very nice. The boat does look like it was maintained very well. When I suft and web and look at Valiants and Passports for sale, it's tempting to check one out that's already in Mexico and just start cruising from there...

We lived in the DC area for 14 years, but it was before I got back into sailing. I charted a small sailboat out of Annapolis a year ago and had a great time.

Meanwhile, I need to order parts and do some preemptive rebuilds on our C&C before the weather improves. We are hoping to spend two days at the Seattle boat show later this month, and both my wife and I are manning "booths" at the Portland Boat show this weekend for sailing organizations we're members of.

Good luck on your trip, and be sure to let us know when you post photos.

Jim H


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## camaraderie

Labatt...understand your reasoning and surprised that a Passport52 sloop has an under 65' mast. Must have a long boom or a big roach...but anyway, there is no denying they are wonderful boats. 
I'm not surprised at the reception you got at the show at Tayana. Their US representation has been shakey for a long time...but the factory is quite responsive. If you end up going used, it is a good one to keep on your list as well. I'm surprised the Hylas was more expensive than the Passport. They didn't used to be and don't deserve to be...though they are quite nice too. (My BIL has a 54). The Amels are really quirky though quite solid but not ICW compatible anyway. A Cabo47 CC sounds like a very interesting boat but if they keep their lines, probably not big enough for you. 
Well...the good thing is you have a little time and a nice boat in the meantime anyway! Have fun on her!!


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## sharkbait

*So,how do I prepare for a 5year cruise with kids?*

1


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## Jim H

Quick Update:

Our cruising plans continue, but we're making a lateral move this year that's interesting. We're in the process of selling the house and liquidating our cars and 80% of our possessions, so that we can move the family to London. I've accepted a new position there.

On the downside, we need to let go of our C&C 27 and start fresh in a new country. On the plus side, we'll have far fewer connections to land to worry about in the future, and there appears to be good off-shore opportunities in England and charter opportunities in the Med and the Caribbean. The kids will have many new cultural experiences as we settle in and explore Europe, so in a way we get to experience some of the cruising lifestyle without making the big break from the career yet.

Anyway, all the planning for cruising pointed us toward this opportunity, and it's pretty cool how many open doors one finds when thinking a bit out of the box. We hope to charter for a week this summer, but maybe focus on RYA certifications now instead of ASA. I'll try to post occasional updates.

Fair winds!

Jim H


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## equitiman

Hey Jim,

I moved from the U.S. to Europe and did some of the RYA courses. I highly recommend Trafalgar Sailing located in Gibraltar (Trafalgar Sailing School, RYA Sailing school Gibraltar). You can get cheap charter flights from London down to Gibraltar and I found it to be a great place to practice sailing skills. During the course we sailed to Morocco, did a night sail where we had to deal with lots of VLCCs in the TSS, and all other kinds of things as well. The only drawback is that Gibraltar is not the most picturesque place on earth, however you'll spend most of your time on the boat. They really treat it as a course and not as a "skippered charter but we'll teach you how to tie a bowline and call it a course" kind-of-deal. Also, the real reason I recommend it is that you have to get Jim F. as your instructor. He is a very talented teacher, has lots of experience, and lots and lots of interesting stories.

Unfortunately I don't live in London, otherwise I'd ask if you'd like to go sailing sometime!

Bob


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## Idiens

If you are unfortunate enough to live in "the smoke", then look up the Cruising Association. Cruising Association Home Page, they have an excellent library for planning world cruises. They also run several RYA approved courses for getting the certificates and have a crew/skipper finding service.


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## Valiente

Jim H said:


> Fair winds!
> 
> Jim H


Thanks for staying in touch. I'm on the same path and already have the "go" boat, but I need more hours in deliveries. The beauty of being in London is the huge opportunities you and your wife (and I think she should do this separately from you) to crew and do deliveries in the real ocean, but in timeframes and distances that are very manageable. For instance, Plymouth to Lisbon might be only six days of sailing, but leaving the Channel and transiting the Bay of Biscay gets you adverse currents, a lee shore, hellacious rocks off Ushant and the almost inevitable depressions that scoot in off the Atlantic.

Fun? Wow.

But the beauty is that you can take a fast train *to* Plymouth, board with EPIRB, heavy foulies and harness, and *just go*. At the other end, you have a reviving beverage, hop on a RyanAir and you are back in London in a couple of hours with the sort of sailing you'd need a Trinidad to New York run to get on the west side of the Atlantic.

And in Europe, you will be exposed to a wider range of boats than in North America, in my opinion. Outside of the Med, there's not a lot of call for the Hunter/Catalina type of coastal cruiser...boats leaving North Sea builders have to be tougher "out of the box", so to speak, and the French, the Dutch, the Germans and Scandinavians have a lot of fairly cutting edge ideas (and have kept a lot of tried-and-true ones that cost-cutting here has seen go by the wayside) that it will be good for you to see. And of course, sailing is a MUCH bigger sport in Europe than in North America, and there's no shortage of books or TV on the topic.

Good luck, and I will follow this thread with interest, as your plans, while done in a different order than mine, share a number of similarities.


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## Jim H

equitiman said:


> I highly recommend Trafalgar Sailing located in Gibraltar (Trafalgar Sailing School, RYA Sailing school Gibraltar). You can get cheap charter flights from London down to Gibraltar and I found it to be a great place to practice sailing skills.


Bob,

That is an interesting recommendation-- we hadn't considered taking RYA courses in Gibraltar. We have the Shard DVD that covers Gibraltar to Mahon, so we have an idea of what cruising is like in that area. I mentioned the idea to my wife, and for some reason she seems excited by the idea of dumping me and the kids for a week of sailing in the Med...

Thanks for the recommendation.

Jim H


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## Jim H

Idiens said:


> If you are unfortunate enough to live in "the smoke", then look up the Cruising Association. Cruising Association Home Page, they have an excellent library for planning world cruises. They also run several RYA approved courses for getting the certificates and have a crew/skipper finding service.


We briefly visited the Cruising Association when I flew over to London for the interview. My wife and I went to Limehouse Basin and met a nice couple who were selling a 42 foot sailboat with a premiere moorage there, and they pointed out the Cruising Association building. The library sounds very interesting, and thanks for the link to their web site.

Jim H


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## Jim H

Valiente said:


> The beauty of being in London is the huge opportunities you and your wife (and I think she should do this separately from you) to crew and do deliveries in the real ocean, but in timeframes and distances that are very manageable. For instance, Plymouth to Lisbon might be only six days of sailing, but leaving the Channel and transiting the Bay of Biscay gets you adverse currents, a lee shore, hellacious rocks off Ushant and the almost inevitable depressions that scoot in off the Atlantic.


That does sound like fun-- thanks for the description. My wife does plan to take the next set of classes without me, and it should be fairly easy for her since she'll be taking a year off from work to help us settle in. She's pretty active in a local women's sailing association, and I hope we can find something similar there. We've already found a place for my son to continue his independent Opti sailing.

As for the boat selections, there is an interesting variety to consider. I think our plans are to charter for while, but then do a more serious investment in a newer boat.

Meanwhile, I have to get back to cleaning out the house before our agent visits today. In fact, FedEx just delivered a sizable package from London with moving information. We have some pretty serious work to do in the next few months...

Jim H


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## Jim H

Quick update: the juggernaut continues...

We've sold our C&C 27, but the new owner is going bonkers with it and cruising just about every weekend on the Columbia River, so we don't feel too bad. She raced on it in the past, and we're sure she race with it in the near future.

Meanwhile, we've let go of about 70% of our stuff, and it feels great. In two weeks, the international movers will be here to pack and ship off about 2800 lbs of bicycles, books, kitchen gear, mattresses, and sailing gear to London for us. Our house is on the market and is being shown almost every day, and it's amazing the things we've fixed in the past month that have bothered us for years. Why is it that we only resolve such things right before selling?

To soften the blows, we're sailing our Cal 20 (half owned by my brother, who will keep it in our absence), and it's been a blast. We sailed last week, last Sunday, and I'm going out again tomorrow night. 

Bob, thanks for the reference to Trafalgar Sailing School, RYA Sailing school in Gibraltar. It sounds like a lot of fun, and my wife might fly down for her first week of classes later this summer if we can schedule it. I hope to go as soon as I can get a week off.

Now, which sailing club should we join in London? Recommendations? So far, the London Corinthian Sailing Club seems to have our interest, but it seems odd that it takes five to seven weekends just for their basic dingy course. I sailed Laser IIs in college, so dingies aren't a complete mystery, but we'd like to be sailing again before retirement... For our kids, the sailing club at Welsh Harp sounds like it will be in our neighborhood.

Also, is the story that if you own a 30 footer in England it's a 2.5 hour train trip away down in Portsmouth? Is east on the Thames not good for sailing (for something closer to London for a family cruiser). We are looking forward to the RYA courses, and the channel hops for building sea miles.

Sorry for rambling-- we're just excited about the move. 

Jim H


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## equitiman

*Nice to hear...*

Hey Jim,

It's nice to hear about your ongoing adventure and follow along on this thread. If you do decide to do the RYA course in Gibraltar, contact Cathy (Trafalgar Sailing School, RYA Sailing school Gibraltar) and tell her that you must have Jim Field as your instructor. They have cheap flights from London to Gibraltar and they will usually give you a 10% discount on the course if you ask (there are various "discount" incentives such as second-time students, two-week courses, booking as couple, etc., however I suspect if you ask nicely they will just give you the discount anyway).

Good luck with the move and keep us posted!

Bob


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## Cruisingdad

Hey Jim,

Hate to see you moving but glad things are going well.

Take care.

- CD


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## SimonV

how do I prepare for a 5 year cruise with kids.  

Leave Home When The Kids Do.


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## TSOJOURNER

Jim,

I just read your thread and you referred to Lattitude 38 comments on low cost cruising. What are you referring to, please? We are just thinking about going crusing. We are in the beginning stage, very beginning and I'd like to read as much as possible if anyone has suggestions.
Thanks,


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## sgkuhner

My wife and I did exactly what you are planning on doing. We did a four year circumnavigation with our kids (ages 9 & 11 when we left and almost 13 & 15 when we arrived home). Our boat was a Valiant 40 named Tamure and we found it to be the perfect boat for us. We rented our house while we were gone and I am glad we did, because house prices went up so much where we live that I doubt we could have afforded to buy it back when we returned. We also had our boat for a few years before we left and spent that time slowly upgrading her for a world cruise.

We took many pictures and our son has put our slide show on his website. If you want to see it go to:

http://www.pbase.com/akuhner/greatescape

From there, click on the first image, then scroll down to read the
text. Click on "next" when you are ready to go to the next slide.
With this format you can stop where ever you need to, then come back
to the show and start again where you left off.

If you leave your email address, I will send you the copies of our news letters that you might find interesting. BTW when our kids got back into the local high school they each graduated in the top 5% of their class and each went to an Ivy League college.

Don't give up the dream. Don't be overwhelmed at the enormity of it all. Just say to yourself, "If we do want to go sailing in two or three years, what do we have to do to be able to cast off the dock lines. Then do each little step one at a time, knowing that if at any time events dictate that you cannot go, you can always change your plans. However, unless you have done each of the little steps to get you there.

Scott Kuhner


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## Jim H

pfschey said:


> I just read your thread and you referred to Lattitude 38 comments on low cost cruising. What are you referring to, please? We are just thinking about going crusing. We are in the beginning stage, very beginning and I'd like to read as much as possible if anyone has suggestions.


Hi, Pamela

Sorry I was slow to respond: things are busy. We have an accepted offer on our house, and the inspector is going through it as I type this at the Lucky Lab Pub in Multnomah Village.

You can find Latitude 38 at

Welcome to Latitude 38 - Northern California's Leading Sailing & Marine Magazine

Just go to the letters section at

Latitude 38 Letters - Index

and start paging through. Latitude 38 is a free monthly published in SF, and it's editors have some of the best advice I've seen about sensible, low cost cruising. One article they had about about a guy who sailed the south pacific in a home build catamaran for about $50 a month. He's currently a teacher in So Cal building his next Cat for round two. I like the publication because they don't have the attitude that it takes a fifty footer less than two years old to cross an ocean. Their point is that you can go a long ways on a Albin Vega (or similar boat) with the right attitude and common sense.

As for us, the days are ticking down to our move to London. Still, we've been sailing about twice a week on our Cal 20 that I half-own with my brother, and he's going to keep it in our absence.

Here's a pic from a recent sail with our kids:










Here's more pictures.

Good luck with your planning!

Jim H


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## camaraderie

Hey SKUHNER...and how is Miss Kitty!?? Don't forget to tell 'em to buy a Spade Anchor!! Hope we see you guys soon again!


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## Jim H

sgkuhner said:


> My wife and I did exactly what you are planning on doing. We did a four year circumnavigation with our kids (ages 9 & 11 when we left and almost 13 & 15 when we arrived home).
> We took many pictures and our son has put our slide show on his website. If you want to see it go to:
> 
> http://www.pbase.com/akuhner/greatescape


Scott,

Thanks for the pictures and the link-- your pictures and story are terrific. I'm certain things have changed some since you cruised, but we're still excited about a similar voyage. In our family, my eight-year old daughter is the cabin captain and the official photographer and videographer, and I hope we can do something like your trip in the near future.

I've always liked the Valiant 40s, but some sound like they would be complex to take on. I also "fell" for a fully renovated Spencer 42 recently, and it was hard to walk away from such a quality rebuild. Our number one personal goal in England is to start building off-shore experience, and we have another week of chartering in the San Juan islands lined up just two weeks from now.

Thanks again, and now I need to finish my third pint of triple threat IPA... 

Jim H


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## tdw

When I first saw this thread many moons ago my only thought was "why?" But that's merely a sign of an aging somewhat curmudgeonly wombat who wouldn't cruise with kids in a million years. 

However having just had a wander through James (?) Palley's "Unlikely Passages" I refer you to the chapter (12 I think) entitled "Children Afloat", the text of which reads in it's entirety "Better that than onboard". 

I liked that.


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## Devinswings

*Another Family sailing off for 3 - 5 years*

Hi Jim,
I just wanted to let you know that my husband and I are now watching intently to everything that is written. We plan on leaving May 2008. This decision was just made last week. Its not in stone yet, but If i know us It will happen.
For LadyH Very powerful words. As you said jump in 2 feet, now, not later. Well we just need to get organized and then jump.
We will be traveling with 2 girls age( now ) 9 and 10.

Some questions I do have for all of you, especially Jim, 
1.what are you using for home schooling. And what are some recommendations. 
2. when are you leaving?
3. what extra courses should one take
4. 
look forward to hearing from everyone


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## Jim H

Devinswings said:


> 1.what are you using for home schooling. And what are some recommendations.
> 2. when are you leaving?
> 3. what extra courses should one take
> look forward to hearing from everyone


The typical responses for home schooling are the Calvert School for elementary and middle grades (Calvert School in Baltimore). If we were to leave now, I'd be tempted to buy the curriculum used off of Ebay (the books and the sequence), and then supplement it with our own materials and projects. The only thing is that I'd want to make certain our curriculum was meeting standards, etc., but both my wife and I have been in education for nearly 20 years so it shouldn't be too hard.

For upper school, the most interesting program I've heard of is the Westbridge Academy that was discussed at the Hacking Family's site: School

I liked the sound of it's design, but it's not inexpensive.

As for our departure date, it changes all the time. For example, we seriously considered a start this July in Puget Sound. We found a well-restored boat, and figured we'd cruise for four months in the Sound to get our sea legs, and then head south on our own or with a hired captain or crew if we needed help offshore.

As good as that sounds, our finances at the start and for the next 2-5 years would have been a bit tentative, even with a good house sale.

At the same time, the London opportunity came up. Good job, good school for the kids, adventure, and the dropping of 80% of our stuff (house, cars, boats, furniture, books). At the same time, we could enjoy a lot of European travel while still having our careers.

So, we opted for that adventure, with cruising on the horizon. We love to sail and cruise, but learning about other cultures and making friends around the world is our real goal, and moving to Europe is a nice part of that for two or more years-- as long as we get to charter in the Med.

Jim H


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## TSOJOURNER

*You GO*

Jim:

Saw this thread come up and thought that I would reply. We recently (3 weeks ago) finished a 2-year cruise around North America with our two children ( now 10 and 9) so my comments are not without some experince. But they are only my thoughts on the subject. We learned so much and have so much more to learn.

We purchased a new Beneteau 411 in 2000 in anticipation of this trip with our 2 infant children. Kids got bigger, the 411 did not go to weather very well under sail and we wanted a bigger platform. We purchased our 461 18 weeks before departure date and then spent 7/24 refitting and fixing her up. Sadly only sailed her twice before we moved the boat to Waukegan. We decided to use the first 6 months on the Great Lakes as one big shake down cruise which, in hind-sight, was a decent decision as we had plenty of accessible mechanical support.

I would not live on the boat for a year prior to leaving. Nothing to be gained as your boat rots in the water for another year without any use. Not knowing where you live I would suggest at least one 3-4 day trip about 4 months before you leave because things do not fail 1) at the dock or 2) where you can get a replacement part. Get the easy fixes done while still state side.

The biggest surprise of our journey was the amount of time we spent with the Volvo Penta turned on. Our log, which was religously filled in on each segment of our trip, confirms that we sailed only 27% of the time. The rest was motor sailing or just motoring. If we were hard core sailors we probably could have increased the 27% to 35% to 40%.

For that reason alone I would put 75% of that repair kitty into 1) making sure you have a very reliable diesel and 2) you have an exhaustive supply part inventory for your diesel. We put a new head sail on the boat before leaving and that $5k would have been much better spent rebuilding the turbo and transmission.

As we return to our home yacht club we are saddened to see a couple boats still at their slips after having planned and dreamed of exotic destinations for their boats. We have come and gone and they are still here. The point is, and it was liberally offered to us before we left, the best boat to go on the trip with is the one you own and the time to go is now.

We are home for six months and will be looking for the Bahamas again in November 2007. Best of luck and hold on to the dream 'cause it is worth every moment of it!

RDL


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## sailingdog

MilanoMyst-

I find it interesting that you say you had to motor almost 3/4 of the time. If that were truly the case for long-term cruisers, how did the Pardeys manage to log so many miles sans engine??? That may reflect more on the boat's ability to move in light winds and to windward than it does on the reality of how much use sails are.


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## Tartan34C

sailingdog said:


> MilanoMyst-
> 
> I find it interesting that you say you had to motor almost 3/4 of the time. If that were truly the case for long-term cruisers, how did the Pardeys manage to log so many miles sans engine??? That may reflect more on the boat's ability to move in light winds and to windward than it does on the reality of how much use sails are.


I think it's more a matter of the type of cruising. One was coastal and one was tradewinds. I sailed without an engine for many years and found that I needed to pick routes and destinations that permitted engineless sailing and I always need to plan a way to sail out of anyplace I was considering sailing into.
All the best,
Robert Gainer


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## tdw

Tartan34C said:


> I think it's more a matter of the type of cruising. One was coastal and one was tradewinds. I sailed without an engine for many years and found that I needed to pick routes and destinations that permitted engineless sailing and I always need to plan a way to sail out of anyplace I was considering sailing into.
> All the best,
> Robert Gainer


Tradewinds definitely the clue there. Other side of it is that when more small craft had either no engine or a piddly little thing that was good for docking and not much else, sailors had to cope with dead calms. Nowadays everyone is in too much of a hurry. I realise it can get tedious after awhile but there is a special beauty in a totally calm ocean and you are the proverbial painted ship on a painted sea.


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## sailaway21

With five kids on board, I'm not sure if tedium or a totally calm ocean are likely options.(g)


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## Serendipity32

*Great Idea.*

DO IT!!

20 years ago we set off around the New Zealand coast, Tonga, Fiji, Vanuatu, New Caledonia and the coast of Queensland, Australia, on a voyage that lasted 3 years. 
We had our 2 oldest children (then our only children) aboard, aged 5 and 3. It was the best thing we ever did as a family, giving our children a huge range of experiences, exposing them to different cultures, giving them self confidence and binding us as a family really well.

Everyone has their own ideas about size of boat, level of equipment etc, and there are advantages and disadvantages in the different ideas ( including mine..).. here is how we did it..

We had built our own Denis Ganley designed 32 foot steel cutter ourselves, taking 4 1/2 years to do it. After launching, we sailed it locally on weekends and holidays, building up experience and confidence. before too long we were deliberately going sailing in the harbour in 35 knot winds to get experience, then some coastal voyages in strong winds as well.
This led to a small number of changes and improvements which were to be helpful later when things turned rough.. which will happen, but not often or for long.

We then did a few long coastal voyages, then set off on our main cruise.

The scariest part of the whole experience for me was handing in my notice at work and committing to making the dream become a reality, but I have always been glad that I did it.

Would we have preferred a bigger boat? Maybe.. but we didn't have enough money to get, equip and maintain anything larger, and we enjoyed the experience so much that I would be happy to say " Get a good boat rather than a big one. If you can get a good, big boat then great, but a good small boat will give you a great time anyway".
There were times I was glad we were on a smaller boat as well.. shallower draught opened up more anchorages, berthage was cheaper, reefing the main during squalls was easier....

Things I rate as important for safe passages included:
-Wind vane self steering;
-Good, STRONG roller reefing on the main forestay;
-Efficient shelter from wind, rain and spray for the cockpit;
-A way of doing everything manually if the powered/electronic systems fail;
-Good anchoring equipment including more than one type of anchor, a good anchor winch and a lot of chain;
-Storm jib and trysail which are well set up and easy to set.. you do not want anything difficult about something that you are doing in 45 knots of wind...;
-Knowledge of how the systems work, and how to repair them.

No time for more right now.. good luck with your plans.


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## TSOJOURNER

My wife and I are leaving next fall after the boat shows (new 615 to be on display at Newport and Annapolis) for a few years. We are not going to be in a rush or have a time limit regarding places we go and see other then staying out of hurricane/typhoon season areas. Our son will be just over three when we depart. With everything I've been reading and following, it sounds like almost the perfect age for him. The home schooling thing seems to be a simple process to follow using one of the organized systems. At that age, it seems to me that you just have to make sure you do something on a daily basis. We're not too worried about that. We are concerned about social interaction with others around his ago so we'll be looking for other boats with children and be flexible about where we go and how much time we spend in an area to accommodate this concern. He is a very social child... we can tell already.


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## sgkuhner

We will be traveling with 2 girls age( now ) 9 and 10. 

Some questions I do have for all of you, especially Jim, 
1.what are you using for home schooling. And what are some recommendations. 

We used the Calvert School for our kids and it was fantastic. However, it only goes up to through the ninth grade and after that we used the Nebraska system. Both kids got back after four years of sailing and went right into their normal class. each boy graduated in the top 5% of their class and each went to any Ivy League college.

Recommendations: 1) we tried to do school work for about three hours each morning....except when there was something more interesting to do, like climb the pyramids in Egypt. 2) When you see other boats with kids, immediately invite them over. We tended to buddy-boat with boats that had kids on board. Even of it meant missing some anchorages. 3) have a lot of books for the kids on board and before you go to a new place, island, country, encourage them to read your guide books so they learn about the places they will visit. 4) If you are planning on going to the Pacific, get the "South Pacific Hand Guide by Moon Publications. It is written for backpackers; but, has a wealth of information about all the islands in the Pacific like when and how to go through the kava ceremony in Fiji.

Scott Kuhner


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## sgkuhner

Everyone has their own ideas about size of boat, level of equipment etc, and there are advantages and disadvantages in the different ideas ( including mine..).. here is how we did it..

We had built our own Denis Ganley designed 32 foot steel cutter ourselves, taking 4 1/2 years to do it.

Would we have preferred a bigger boat? Maybe.. but we didn't have enough money to get, equip and maintain anything larger, and we enjoyed the experience so much that I would be happy to say " Get a good boat rather than a big one. If you can get a good, big boat then great, but a good small boat will give you a great time anyway".
There were times I was glad we were on a smaller boat as well.. shallower draught opened up more anchorages, berthage was cheaper, reefing the main during squalls was easier....

Things I rate as important for safe passages included:
-Wind vane self steering;
-Good, STRONG roller reefing on the main forestay;
-Efficient shelter from wind, rain and spray for the cockpit;
-A way of doing everything manually if the powered/electronic systems fail;
-Good anchoring equipment including more than one type of anchor, a good anchor winch and a lot of chain;
-Storm jib and trysail which are well set up and easy to set.. you do not want anything difficult about something that you are doing in 45 knots of wind...;
-Knowledge of how the systems work, and how to repair them.

No time for more right now.. good luck with your plans.[/quote]

Kitty and I did our first circumnavigation in a 30 foot Seawind Ketch and had no electronics other than an RDF and a Zentih Trans-Oceanic short wave receiver to get the time check. We had an 20 hp diesel engine with an 18 gal fuel tank, so we rarely used the engine, even in a calm. We loved every minute of our sailing adventure. Therefore I wholly agree with and applaud the above advice.


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## samkristen

*Great Plan...*

We cruised with our 2 kids a few years ago on our Bristol 41.1.
When we left our kids were 4 and 6. I was in my early forties. I left my career (yikes!), sold the cars, and rented the house.
For home schooling we used a Waldorf School program called Oak Meadow (I think) which we supplemented with Singapore Math. This worked out fine, but your kids are older and these may not be appropriate.
After agonizing over health insurance we chose to go without. Health care is much less expensive in most cruising grounds, and better suited for local malodies.

You'll be amazed how quickly your kids adapt to cruising. Granted, our kids were younger, but it only took a few days for them to settle in and treat life aboard as routine. I wish I could say the same for my wife and I. We were frantic about safety in the early going, as our energetic kids would run around the deck climbing on everything while we were under way. We calmed down eventually and peace was restored.

Not surprisingly, the kids were happiest when there were other children to play with, so we always gravitated to boats and places with kids, which altered our cruising plans many times over. There were many harbors where we stayed longer than planned if there were other families present and/or ice cream parlors. But that's the great thing about cruising... plans change constantly.

This may come across as a cop-out, but we found the VCR/DVD to be an invaluable tool. We had many either rough or mundane passages where a 2-hour video allowed my wife and I to either focus on running the boat, or in the case of mundane, to break up the "endless boredom". It also occasionally allowed us adults to visit with other adults in the cockpit.

In all respects it was a wonderful experience and I envy your plans. 
One point on boat selection - make sure whatever boat you choose has excellent engine access, because you'll be spending a lot of time accessing it!

Cheers,
Sam


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## sgkuhner

As for health insurance, Our experience is DO NOT GO WITHOUT IT! On our first trip, I discovered that I had a malignant melanoma and because I had no health insurance, my father had to pick up the hospital and doctor bills that today would have run over $100,000. On our second trip , we had health insurance and Kitty smashed her ankle in New Zealand that required two operations and a plate and four screws to fix. Because we had health insurance we could choose the doctor we wanted rather than having to rely on the public health system. It was a total success and she now walks without a limp.


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## Valiente

Tartan34C said:


> I think it's more a matter of the type of cruising. One was coastal and one was tradewinds. I sailed without an engine for many years and found that I needed to pick routes and destinations that permitted engineless sailing and I always need to plan a way to sail out of anyplace I was considering sailing into.
> All the best,
> Robert Gainer


I agree with this. I am going to shortly buy an Admiralty pilot for the purpose of planning routes (that and the next edition of Jimmy Cornell's World Cruising Routes). While I have a motor sailer, it's a decent enough sailer to get anywhere in light air (just a knot slower!) than most comparable cruisers. My hope is that by conscientious route planning, I can bring my "engine on" time well below 50% of the time spent underway.

At the same time, I am increasing the fuel capacity in order to power out of situations when I would just bob about uselessly otherwise, but I would rather spent time than diesel in most cases. Times of absolute calm are relatively rare, as my couple of days in a light and fast racer-cruiser like _Giulietta_ just proved. We had bad wind, not no wind, and keeping the sails up and drawing kept the boat on an even keel and added a good knot or two to the speed.


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## Jim H

*Update: a confirmation*

Well, the living room couch and chair were sold and taken away today. The bedroom set and family room couch were also sold and will go later this week. Even the cat was picked up by its new family. We fly to England on July 5th.

Meanwhile, last week we chartered the same Islander 28 we had last year for a week of sailing in the San Juan Islands. Exactly what we needed. The best days were the first and last.

On the first, we cut though 3-4 foot swells and a 20-25 mph wind on a close reach. Slightly rougher conditions are becoming second nature for the kids, even as we reached 7.4 knots and a pretty good heel. Fun. Really fun.

On the last, my wife and I got up at 5 a.m., brought in the stern tie, and were sailing back to Bellingham Bay while the kids still slept in the V berth. Yeah, we could live this life.

Here's two of my favorite pics from the trip:



















The full set of pics is available at

San Juans Charter 2007

Overall, I'd like to note that Bob Perry designed a seriously well-balanced and well-sailing boat with the Islander 28. Even though it was a charter, we consider it our Puget Sound craft, and next year we'll likely be back for another week. I wish we could have gone for two weeks, as we planned, but other adventures await.

Jim H


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## Valiente

Most of Perry's designs range from pretty decent to outstanding from the cruiser's point of view. You could do worse than to choose one for long term cruising. Like Hood and Brewer's designs, they won't always get you there first, but they'll get you there in comfort and short-handed ease of operation.


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## Jim H

*2007 Southampton Boat Show (UK)*

Sorry to bring up an old thread, but our planning/saga continues.

We now live in London, and we're exploring the sailing opportunities here. My wife is taking a dinghy sailing course today on an RS Vision at Welsh Harp Reservoir, and she's having a great time. We've joined their club so we can sail the resevoir as a family on their boats for now, and could have our own dinghy on a trolley there if we wanted to.

In two weeks, I get to do a sailing weekend with British Offshore out of Gosport on a Sigma 38. I'm looking forward to two nights and two days of sailing to Hamble and other parts of the area.

Yesterday, we all went to the Southampton Boat Show. It was like the Seattle Boat Show X 2. I have a gallery of pictures from the show here:
http://www.photos.sailingvoyage.com/v/album_012/

After reading about the breaking up of both Cascade and Pacific Seacraft, it was reassuring to see so many makes and models of boats on display, including a solid range of smaller open boats and pocket cruisers. Anyone for a new Drascombe?

Our favorite boats we boarded (in the realm of possibly owning some day):

1) Hallberg Rassey 342
2) Etap 37
3) Delphia 33 (half the cost of the first two on the list, but...)

As for our current lifestyles (remember: we don't own a car), we took a close look at the RS Vision and the RS Feva XL, which are rotomolded dinghy sailors with jibs, gennikers and extending sprits. Pretty much zero maintenance, and we could keep one at Welsh Harp reservoir or at Brighton (to dinghy-sail the channel). My wife is sailing the RS Vision today during her sailing class.

We also boarded the 1962 Bounty built for the Brando movie (but used in Pirates of the Caribe, Treasure Island, etc.). The Bounty was nothing, however, compared to the Gipsy Moth IV, which we boarded, lingered on, and chatted with one of the crew of the recent 3 person circumnav.

There was so much at the show that it was overwhelming to try and do in a day, and we might return for another day next weekend. The kids were blown away by the big pool set up for "try diving." It was filled up with kids 8-14 years old trying out scuba tanks for the first time for free. They would definitely like to get in on that action.

Jim H
London, UK


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## sailingdog

Jim-

Lovely job on the photos...


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## Jim H

sailingdog said:


> Jim-
> 
> Lovely job on the photos...


Thanks, Sailingdog.

Today was a good day-- my wife passed her first RYA Certification (Dinghy Sailing). I sailed Laser IIs in college, but this was her first time on a small sailboat, and I think it was a great experience for her. Doing things like the capsize drill are good confidence-builders-- and she proved to herself that she could right the boat on her own (a RS Vision). The winds were up to 25 knots, and she had "Force 4" recorded on her paperwork.

We've joined the Wembley Sailing Club, and I'm looking forward to sailing their boats on the resevoir. Both of our kids are very excited about taking the Opti sailing classes in the spring.

Next weekend, I get to sail out of Hamble, and start my RYA 2 certification. We're both ASA 104 certified, but the RYA certifications are more intense (especially in the areas of night sailing and navigation). So, it's kind of fun to start over again with the basics, and learn what a pushpit is.

Here's a gallery of pictures from Steph's RYA 1 Dinghy sailing class today:
http://www.photos.sailingvoyage.com/v/album_013/










Jim H
London, UK


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## Jim H

*First Sail on the Solent*

Next step in saga:

I'm happy to report that I had an excellent first weekend of sailing on the Solent, heading out of Hamble and spending the night at East Cowes on the Isle of Wight. I was on a two day course with British Offshore Sailing School, and I pretty much was doing the Dayskipper practical curriculum even though I had signed up for the Competent Crew practical. 
*
Details:* there were five students and one instructor, and we took out a Sigma 38 that participated in this year's Fastnet race. They were just finishing the install of all new standing rigging when I showed up on Friday night for the first night aboard, and I was pretty surprised by how comfortable the internal fitting out was for a fast boat. For 38 feet, it was still a fractional rig, and it had a regular back stay and running back stays.

Saturday was wet and calm, but lunch on the hook beside Calshot was pretty bouncy. We did MOB drills and some chart work, calculating a course against a 2 knot current from buoy to buoy.

Pints at the marina pub in East Cowes were topped by a walk on the "pontoons," where I came across B&Q, Ellen MacArthur's record-making circumnav trimaran. It was for sale, no less, but it's extensive sponsor labels had been removed.

Sunday had force 4-5 winds from the East, and I had the helm as we left East Cowes and beat close hauled into the wind and chop. We buried the rail, and I was rather glad to have five-foot wheel to hold onto. After that, we turned back to run with the wind back to Hamble to put the boat to bed.

A good time was had by all.

For more pictures, go to

http://www.photos.sailingvoyage.com/v/album_014

My wife plans to head to Hamble for the same sailing weekend this month, and we both will schedule our five day theory courses for Dayskipper in Greenwich so that we can do the five-day practical course on the Solent in the spring. I'm particularly looking forward to the night sailing.










Jim H
London, UK


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## Valiente

Nice stuff. Please keep us posted. You seem to have access to a lot of quality boats and sailing opportunities, which is perhaps more of a credit to your persuasion than to your locale!


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## Jim H

*Next Step: Our Next Boat?*









1860 Warrior (at Portsmouth)

We're now moving into the "what's our next boat" phase, beginning with "where would we keep it" and "how much is this going to cost?"

Toward this end, we spent two nights in Portsmouth, and explored three marinas in Gosport and the Portsmouth area. Haslar Marina in Gosport is our favorite, since it is close to the train and ferry stations, making it a quicker, direct trip from London (about 2.5 hours) by train.

We also visited the historic boat yards, and saw the Warrior, the Mary Rose, and the HMS Victory. For the record, the British put us to shame with how they maintain and display their historic ships. I've seen the USS Constellation in Baltimore's Inner Harbor, but it was nothing like the experience of seeing the Warrior.

During our walks in the Marinas, we also checked about boats. We were surprised by the number of *Contessa* sailboats (both 26 and 32s), but even the 32 might be tight for a family of four and my 6 ft height. It was great to see so many of them, however.

Next up the scale is the *Westerly Fulmar* 32 footer, which my wife sailed for a weekend and really enjoyed. More volume, good reputation, and probably about right for cruising up to two weeks for four (round Britain, across the channel).

After that is the *Vancouver 32 and 34*-- much more of a long-range cruiser. Maybe overkill for the channel, but has the option of crossing the Atlantic in the future. Maybe not the best for daysailing, but tempting to go a bit more (50k pounds) for a 32.

We also saw Rustler 36s, lots of HRs, and a Hunter Mystery 35 (British-make, not the US Hunter). Here's a photo gallery of the trip, with a lot of pictures of the boats (both in the Marina and the historic boatyards):

http://www.photos.sailingvoyage.com/v/album_015/

Here's a quiz-- we saw one very nice boat in our size that we couldn't ID. Could someone identify this boat by it's hull stripe for us?



















Finally, we still have today off, so we joined the London-based Cruising Association and are going down to use their library this afternoon. I was there last week for a great lecture about sailing around England with kids, and my wife go to this week's lecture by a couple that circumnavigated twice during the last 17 years (part motorbike, mostly sailboat). The CA website is here:
http://www.cruising.org.uk/

The association also has a crew-exchange service, so we might be able to crew for some cruisers if we don't have our own boat for awhile. I liked the members I met last week, so this could be pretty exiting.

Thanks!

Jim H
London, UK


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## JohnRPollard

Jim,

The unidentified boat reminded me at first of the Rivals I've sailed on, similar arrow stripe but not identical. Also, the Rivals do not normally have a portlight in the foremost end of the coachroof, but some were customer finished so that's not necessarily determinative.

However, I'm going to have to go with: Nicholson 35.

The other unidentified boat in your photo gallery looks very similar to the Morris/Victoria 26, but I'd need to see more photos to be sure.

Neat stuff.


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## Yofy

....Back to cruising with kids 
I just came across this link and thought it might be helpful. (The web page had reprinted a section of Gwenda Cornell's book without designating paragraphs  but the content is worth the effort of reading it. 
http://www.familytravelguides.com/articles/cruises/cruisin1.html

Robyn


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## Jim H

John, you win the prize. It is a Nic 35 (and much nicer than I thought they looked). Good Old Boat has a Cove Stripe Index for identifying boats, and here's the confirmation for the Nic 35:
http://www.goodoldboat.com/cove_stripes_j-r.html#N



Yofy said:


> ....Back to cruising with kids
> I just came across this link and thought it might be helpful.
> 
> Robyn


Robyn, thanks for the link. I liked the article, and it should note that kids can be relatively good at the helm as well. My 10 year-old son had the tiller for about an hour and a half crossing a channel in the San Juan Islands earlier this year, and he was very proud of the accomplishment. My daughter was the official chart-plotter person, and both of them took the dinghy off by themselves to explore Lummi Island without us on the last night of the cruise.

I promised to look into a used Opti for them if they both take and enjoy Opti sailing courses next Spring at Welsh Harp Reservoir, and my son could even take British Offshore sailing weekends with me and earn his Competent Crew rating already (there's no age limit).

I just returned from another weekend of sailing on the Solent, and it was a great learning experience with the British Offshore folks. My muscles are sore and and I have more than one "boat bite" from the weekend, but I got to sail a Westerly Fulmar 32 footer and enjoyed the boat. We cruised up the Medina River on the Isle of Wight and docked near the Folly Inn, where we enjoyed dinner and then the big Rugby Match (England vs. South Africa). At the Folly Inn, there is literally dancing on the tables, and last Saturday night was no exception (despite England's loss in the match).

The boat I sailed is featured in a series of videos that the school supports, and the curious can see some footage from the boat I was on here (see Sailing Skills clip):

http://www.yachtingtv.co.uk/archive_episode_2.htm

Overall, I think that the Yachting TV site isn't bad:

http://www.yachtingtv.co.uk/

Of course, now I'm a weekend ahead of my wife in terms of earning my RYA 2 certification (only need my night sail now), so of course she's planning to head there this weekend for a three-day cruise to catch up and pass me. (She's actually be certified if she goes for 3 days).

One thing I think I can admit: the RYA certifications take about 3-4 times as long to earn as the equivilent ASA certifications, and I think that they are more extensive and confidence building. I'm really looking forward to the night sail to complete the RYA 2 certification. After that, to get the Dayskipper certification, we have five days of classroom work (theory part) and then five days sailing (practical part), with lots of navigation and other work involved.

So, the preparation for cruising with kids now is to really earn and learn some skills.

Jim H
London, UK


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## Valiente

Jim, do you have to be British to take the RYA courses? I hold dual Canadian/British citizenship, but my wife doesn't, and there's no Canadian equivalent, and foreigners can't take the U.S.C.G. courses, from what I gather.

We were thinking of overwintering in England after we leave and taking the courses then. I know that seems backwards, but we probably won't get voyage insurance here either until we hit a country that understands the concept.


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## Jim H

Valiente said:


> Jim, do you have to be British to take the RYA courses? I hold dual Canadian/British citizenship, but my wife doesn't, and there's no Canadian equivalent, and foreigners can't take the U.S.C.G. courses, from what I gather.
> 
> We were thinking of overwintering in England after we leave and taking the courses then. I know that seems backwards, but we probably won't get voyage insurance here either until we hit a country that understands the concept.


The courses are open to all nationalities-- you just need to show up/pay up, and participate. You can also "enter the scheme" at any point (Dayskipper, Coastal, Yachtmaster) if you feel you have the experience equal to the previous certifications. We probably could have started with the Dayskipper courses, but I'm enjoying the sailing and soaking up local knowledge doing the basic courses first.

There's "on-your-boat" tuition options as well, but it's more expensive since the costs aren't shared with other students.

You can also mix and match coursework from other schools. This winter my wife will do the five days of Dayskipper theory with Capital Sailing, so I can take the tube to Greenwich for the classes. For the five days of on-water sailing, I'll return to British Offshore Sailing School (BOSS) on the Solent. I might be able to do one of the 7 day cruises to the Channel Islands, 9 day trips to Brittany, or 2 week Netherland trips to fulfill the practical as well.

It's worth noting that BOSS and other sailing schools offer on-the-water courses throughout the winter, but be prepared for the cold, wet and dark. In some cases, you might leave the slip at 10 and be back at 3, but still be exhausted, I've heard. You might also have to get used to the course pricing, which isn't bad if you pretend the pounds are dollars, but the prices are less in the winter. There was a special rate of only 135 pounds for the weekend I just back back from...

The good part is that sailing here seems to be "higher stakes," meaning that the boats are tougher and it's worth having a solid idea of what you're doing. We're looking forward to the first time we cross the channel (interesting navigation skills are needed), but being with an experienced sailor and well-found boat makes sense.

Good luck with your planning!

Jim H


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## Valiente

Thanks very much for the information! We would be in the somewhat unusual position of having completed a trans-Atlantic in order to take RYA qualifications, but if we're going to overwinter in that vicinity anyway...might as well carpe diem. I know that they are about the best and most widely respected courses going, so if we can get at least Yachtmaster certs., we'll be doing very well indeed.


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## JohnRPollard

JimH,

I noticed in the HerSailnet thread that you mentioned researching the Nicholson 35. I was just going to suggest that if you like this style boat, you might also want to look at some of the Rivals. 

Since you have a couple kids, I'd recommend the Rival 38. It has an interesting aft cabin, rare on boats of this size, made possible by the tall bridgedeck and "Swan-style" companionway hatch. These are solid boats built for North Sea/British Isles conditions, so they do not perform the best in light air, but they will ride out a big blow fairly comfortably. There are some smaller (34 & 36) and larger (42 ?) models available as well. They are sometimes listed as "Rival-Bowman", and in fact the even larger boats (48, 52 ?) from this builder are usually referred to simply as a "Bowman" yachts. 

Might be worth a peek while you're in England -- they are rare in the States...


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## Jim H

JohnRPollard said:


> JimH,
> 
> I noticed in the HerSailnet thread that you mentioned researching the Nicholson 35. I was just going to suggest that if you like this style boat, you might also want to look at some of the Rivals.


John, great minds think alike... 

At this stage, Rivals are higher on our list than Nicholsons. If I were just a single-hander, I'd probably go for a Contessa 32 without a second thought, but the Rival line seems like a good compromise between the lighter Contessa and the heavier Nicholsons. We located a Rival 38c about a month ago, and it sounded very attractive, even though I'm not a center cockpit fan. I even started a thread about it at the SSCA website:

http://64.70.221.24/DiscBoard/viewtopic.php?t=4473

Instead of going to see it, however, we've been sailing most of the weekends of the last month, and now it's under contract. Even so, I didn't want to go too far on it without seeing a Rival 36, which authors in Practical Boat Owner refer to as maybe the best of the group in terms of design compromises.

This coming weekend, I have a strong Rival 32 lined up to view down on the Solent, and it's specs, 2002 Beta engine, and recent standing rigging sound very attractive. The big problem for us now is deciding between a long-range boat (like a 38 or 41), or a "what we need now" boat (32-34). The latter would be more affordable yet still fine for cross-channel trips, but not a long-distance cruiser for four. Thus, the dilemma.

Meanwhile, my wife just got back from three days of sailing, and is a bit proud of having handled some Force 7 conditions with aplomb on a Westerly Fulmar 32 footer. Lots to learn. The Solent can be more than a handful, and the typical strength of sailboats around here reflects that.

Thanks for the comment.

Jim H
London, UK


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## JohnRPollard

Jim,

Glad to hear you have them under consideration. I logged thousands of sea miles in a Rival 38. It is a solid, wholesome boat, and always took care of us, angry Mistrals and Meltemis not withstanding.

The 38' Rival I sailed on was aft-cockpit, with a fully enclosed aft cabin that included stand-up headroom, two single bunks and a vanity sink. Perfect for kids. The 36 is visually almost indistinguishable, but as I recall it lacks the aft cabin.


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## JohnRPollard

Jim, 

As a follow-up to my previous post, I just glanced at the Rival 38C (center cockpit, in Lymington) that is listed on Yachtworld.com. Looking at the schematic, and the few photos provided, I would definitely prefer the configuration of the aft-cockpit version. There just seems to be too high a price paid in the galley for that extra-large aft-cabin in the center cockpit version. The aft cockpit Rival 38 has a much larger galley area (to starboard), and I think the nav station (to port) is larger too. All this while still having a private aft cabin.

In addition to the private aft cabin, the aft-cockpit boat I cruised on had a commodious main salon. The table (to port) dropped down to form a double bunk. The backrest of the starboard settee flipped up to form an "over/under" bunk, with the lower bunk a very large single (almost a double) berth. There was a v-berth forward of the head too (in the case of the boat I cruised on, the v-berth was roughly finished and we primarily used it for sail stowage.)

About the only complaint I could make about the interior of the aft-cockpit version is that the head compartment-- forward of the main salon -- ran athwartships, so you had to pass through it to get to the v-berth.


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## Jim H

*Rival 38A Aft Cabin*



JohnRPollard said:


> Jim,
> About the only complaint I could make about the interior of the aft-cockpit version is that the head compartment-- forward of the main salon -- ran athwartships, so you had to pass through it to get to the v-berth.


Your reference to a comfortable main cabin in the 38A aft cockpit touches on the main reason I don't like many center cockpits-- the main cabin can simply be too short and squared off. To me, the main cabin is still the heart of the boat for the family below, and I'd rather it was reasonably sized.

As for the head forward of the main cabin, I noticed in the brochure at the owners' association (http://www.rivalowners.org.uk/brochures/brr38.htm) that there was also a single head aft-cabin version with no head forward (but a larger head aft). I think I'd prefer the one head version if possible.

For those scratching their heads at this discussion, here's the schematics of the aft-cabin version (single head?) from the owner's association:










It might be a good thing that there's not a Rival 38 aft-cabin on the UK market at the moment... However, it does add to our though processes between "two-week boat now" or "full-size cruising boat now." If we were more than exited about the 38, I could see us making the big move sooner than later.

Now I need to track one of these down. Practical Boat Owner had a article about "recommended offshore boats" just this month, and the Rivals received serious praise, with the end example noting the benefits of an updated Rival 41 over a comparable new boat.

Jim H

A footnote: the first time I heard of a Rival 38 was several years ago when I was reading Tania Aebi's book _Maiden Voyage_. As I recall, the first boat her controversial father bought was a Rival 38 in Europe, that he then crossed the Atlantic in with his kids, including Tania, learning to sail along the way. Reference: http://www.48north.com/aug_2006/tania.htm


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## JohnRPollard

Jim,

I've seen that schematic before -- it's nicely done. One quick point, the boat I crewed on had ONLY a forward head. In the aft cabin, we had a vanity/sink arrangement against the athwartship bulkhead forward of the port bunk. It was handy for brushing teeth/washing up, etc. But there was no enclosed head compartment with a toilet in that location (that actually would have been nice, though.) Instead, this particular example had a somewhat larger nav station and storage area to port at the base of the companionway ladder.

As you know, some of the Rivals were owner-finished, so I would expect to see some variation in interior configuration. But the layout shown in your schematic would probably be the best of all those I've seen for a Rival 38.

Folks will notice the "Swan-style" companonway, and some might balk, but it was easily managed with the depicted pulpits, even in bouncy conditions. Very easy to snug the boat up tight, too.

Edit: Also, the schematic indicates a draft of 5'4". As I recall, ours was close to 2 meters. So apparently there is a shoal version.


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## Jim H

*Earls Court Boatshow 2007 (London)*

Time for an update. Today, the kids and I had a great time at the Earls Court Boatshow in downtown London. In fact, the exhibition center was just a few steps from an Underground Station.

This totally indoor show was lightly attended today, but I liked the atmosphere and emphasis on sailboats over powerboats. I guess the story is that the big London Boat show used to be held in this location, but was moved to a larger space in the Docklands (Excel Center) part of London. It's taking place next month, but this year they brought back the Earls Court show as well.

Highlights? There was a big indoor pool with a couple dozen boats in it, including Gipsy Moth IV, Hanse, Gemini and others. My kids got to scuba dive for the first time (for free) with an instructor. We saw James May's classic sailing convertible car from the TopGear TV show. We checked out a new Hans Christian 41 T. We saw a range of restored classic wood racing sailboats. We saw a display of wrecked but recovered boats, and read their stories. We saw classic wooden boats being made. We walked through a restored long boat for the first time.

Overall, we had a great time. Here's the photos from today:

http://www.photos.sailingvoyage.com/v/album_016/

The show is on through next weekend, and I plan to return either tomorrow with the wife or later in the week to do some bits and parts buying. It was a fun show, and we had a great time.

Jim H
London, UK


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## Valiente

Nice pictures. I can't decide if that galley is practical or over-the-top...


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## Jim H

Valiente said:


> Nice pictures. I can't decide if that galley is practical or over-the-top...


Well, we talk about "Floating Condos," and restored long boats are just that. It is pretty amazing where you can go on the Inland Waterways.

One thing we learned years ago is that boat shows are good for discounts on sailing classes and cruises. This boat show was no exception, so we pretty much planned our 2008 sailing year and pulled the trigger on reservations and payments.

In January, both my wife and I start our RYA Dayskipper Theory courses. Thirteen Monday nights in a row for me to complete the coursework. My wife goes on Wednesday night. The courses are 6 to 10 p.m. in offices in downtown London with On Deck Sailing.

In April, I'll finish up my RYA 2 certification with a weekend on the Solent with BOSS.

In May, my wife does a seven day cruise across the channel to the Channel Islands and back, and finishes her Dayskipper Certification with BOSS. (Our kids do their Optimist classes at Welsh Harp.)

In June, I do a seven day cruise across the channel to Normandy and back, finishing my Dayskipper Cert. with BOSS.

In July, we're back in the US, and I have a three night cruise on the Columbia River planned with my brother on our Cal 20.

In August/September, my wife and I plan to do our Coastal Certifications over a couple more weekends on the Solent.

Now, this is all fine and good, but in no case do I sail with my wife or kids. Hmmm. So, instead of buying a small cruiser and keeping it on the southern coast, we think it's better to have a family sailing dinghy for day sails and racing on Welsh Harp, a resevoir about 45 minutes away. We'll likely spring for a new RS Vision, as we checked out at the Southampton Boat show (see below). We can keep it at our sailing club on a trolley, ready to sail any weekend with the kids or as a family. So, our family sailing continues, and the channel sailing. Fun.


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## mccary

ladyh said:


> When should one go cruising??? I asked myself that question 1000's of times when I was still tied to land. I define happiness as living my dream of cruising&#8230;.


To quote Mark Twain: _*"Twenty years from now, you will be more 
disappointed by the things you did not do than by the things you did."*_ I have this quote on my boat's website. And while I have no personal desire to sail long distances, but I understand those that do. Mark Twain was right! Go for it; start the journey now.


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## Jim H

mccary said:


> Go for it; start the journey now.


I tease my wife about this about 2-3 times a week. Instead of moving to London, I had a fully restored Spencer 42 in Gig Harbor, WA, all lined up to be our "escape velocity" boat. Instead of selling off all the stuff to move overseas, we could have sold off all the stuff and sailed around Puget Sound and then South.

She, of course, had the voice of reason: "We don't have the experience yet."

Basically, she's right, again, as usual, etc. If you have two younger kids, we decided that one shouldn't "learn as you go" offshore. (Maybe one shouldn't do that without kids if they can avoid it.) My counter argument was that we could have hired help for the passage south, shipped the kids down by plane, bobbed around the Sea of Cortez until we all had our sea legs, but in reality we didn't have the financial details worked out far enough into the future.

The positive result, however, is that we channeled the lust for travel into our move to London, and the pay off has been great. I love my work, and the kids are doing great in their new school. My wife loves the city, and we're doing more sailing and more learning than we did in Oregon. We're both crossing the channel in 2008, and both earning our "much more difficult" RYA certifications and feeling more prepared by the moment.

One could say "you'll never go if you never stop preparing," but this is a lot of fun and I don't regret it. Even if we can't do the five year trip before the kids go to college, we have a secondary plan for a one-year sabbatical for an Atlantic circle. (Or a longer trip if we work it out.)

So, things are good, other than knowing that Portugal is pretty near by.

Jim H


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## Valiente

Jim, only because we are sailing parallel courses here, may I ask how the planning for educating the kids while on passage is going? We are modifying our departure plans somewhat as follows:

Instead of leaving in summer 2009 for five years of cruising, we think we will

1) cruise the Canadian Maritimes in summer '09, and either overwinter there or back in Toronto....

2) ...in order that our kid can complete Grade 3 ashore and (we hope) be better prepared for "boat school"...

3)...and in order that '09 would be a "shakedown" both for us as crew and for the boat in "semi"-bluewater conditions, but with plenty of "outs" and the ability to fix things in our own country...

4)...after which we can go directly south in '10 having seen the Maritimes and thus going out via the Erie/Hudson to NYC, then Bermuda, then the Caribbean and then Panama or Trinidad for Christmas.

In the meantimes, scrap, scrap, brush, brush, weld, weld...


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## Jim H

Valiente said:


> Jim, only because we are sailing parallel courses here, may I ask how the planning for educating the kids while on passage is going?


Valiente,

That sounds like a fun plan. Finishing grade three isn't a bad idea, since writing and reading should be established by then (enabling more independence). As you know, there are more resources online about homeschooling (and over-doing it) than one can shake a stick at.

As for education plans, my wife and I have about 37 years experience between us, but it is still a topic to put thought into. Most likely, we'd develop a curriculum we felt challenging yet rewarding to each of our kids, and altered to their learning styles and interests.

For a framework, though, it's worth looking at or considering models. The Calvert School is the most commonly mentioned source of curriculum by grade level (at least for the earlier grades), and it's worth noting that almost complete curriculum packs show up on Ebay.

Others are attracted to the Great Books classical education approach.

Personally, I would like to focus on math and science and technology, and have my wife work with the writing, literature and history pieces. (Both of us are terrible at music, but enjoy art).

I think it would be great to develop extended project-based learning projects in most areas, with rubrics and clear waypoints concerning skills and achievement levels. For example, the countries we visit would become the focus and source of literature, history, art, culture and politics. Water and wildlife could provide for multi-year science measurements and comparisons (publishing ongoing work to a webpage or blog, perhaps collaborating with other students). Mathematics would be as integrated as possible into experiences, but not exclusively. Writing should come naturally, in both journals and online, and for waypoint essays, articles and personal newsletters.

(When my kids were scuba diving last weekend, I was thinking of all the possible math that could be tied to the experience.)

If possible, I thought it would be best if the kids could stay in touch with friends who remain in their home country, through email and pictures and sharing of their experiences. Some cruisers have worked out ongoing relationships with previous teachers (perhaps for a fee for a second opinion of achievements, or through a school-supported option). Learning to seek out the help of authorities online and in local communities would also be part of the plan. (Time to interview the mayor.)

*All in all, I wonder why we aren't doing this already... *

The ultimate "win win" situation is if the academic work is engaging and rewarding, building both confidence and ability. In good schools, for example, parents become engaged positively with their kids' work and progress, and I could see this occurring for us in a positive feedback loop.

Two more links:

Noonsite Cruising Familes

SSCA Familes and Crew Discussion Area

Keep us posted on your progress, and maybe we'll see you on the Solent some day.

Jim H
London, UK


----------



## codmander

Jim H said:


> Any advice on how to prepare for a five-year cruise with two kids?
> 
> We sail a lot now, and charter, but we have this growing "bug" of an idea to cruise while we're still in our forties and before the kids hit High School age.
> 
> We're thinking of picking up something like a Pearson 424, Valiant 40 or a Passport 40 in 2-3 years, and then live aboard for a year while still working to prepare. (We're not big boat people, but with growing kids...) We'll either cash out the house at the time of purchase, or rent for a year to see how that works out.
> *
> Scary part*-- finding catastropic health care for all four of us during the cruise. Maybe skipping on boat insurance. Finding jobs again in the future. Maybe not holding onto real estate while we're gone.
> 
> *Okay part*-- boat schooling the kids for five years (wife and I are both educators).
> 
> *Fun part*-- having enough cash to do a low-budget cruise for five years, but stop early if cash runs out, or go longer if we can write or do other during-cruise work along the route. We'd like to do the PNW, Inside passage, West Coast, Mexico and Sea of Cortez, and then decide to continue either west or east (through the canal).
> 
> *Mission part*-- I have some academic contacts in Chicago who would build a survey and data collection tool for us, so we could visit local schools on our journey and collect data, publish articles and build connections with schools in the US. We could do some teaching along the way (for free) and our kids could experience some local schools as well.
> 
> If we're careful, we should be able to afford the boat with no loans, and have enough cash to fund the cruise (as long as insurance doesn't kill us). After the cruise, we'd plan to have enough cash for a downpayment on another house, and we'd re-enter the working world. Kids would be ready for college (we have decent college accounts running for them now).
> 
> So, any brilliant advice? General budget for the boat would be around $100k (maybe not enough for a Passport 40), and if we don't end up with a perfect blue water boat we still do a lot of cruising with a solid coastal cruiser. We have 2-3 years before the next big step, but it's still fun to plan, learn and scheme.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Jim H


seems to me you can get a boat way under what your planning to spend hard sells with lots of inventory out there makes for really nice boats cheap keep lookin


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## Gryzio

*Crusing with Kidos!*



Jim H said:


> Any advice on how to prepare for a five-year cruise with two kids?
> Thanks!
> 
> Jim H


I just happen to see this Thread and offer a few words. May be a day late and dollar short.

I have not cruised the world, plan to one day. I have been out at sea for very long periods of time and never see anything but, "water, water everywhere and not a drop to drink". Having some things to do is very important. Reading, learning to tie rope knots whatever.

But, one thing I have found over the years is "Attitude"!

One of the best things a person can do to prepare is work on their attitude. Nothing can kill a child's excitement faster than getting mad all the time. And it works for adults also. I have a few friends I really not boat with often. They already mad getting off the dock.

Always remember, things will get broke and people do make mistakes. There will be times when there are situations people be scared.

Keeping a positive attitude layered with a little humor helps.

When we were in Hurricane Rita, we were on my brother's boat. It a power and not sail and very sea worthy as it has seen it's share of bad weather before he bought it. I remember him and me were in the pilot house talking as we fought the storm (others tried to get some sleep).

I was sitting looking out the back door. The boat started to shudder and shake and I sit calm and watch the sun deck disappear into the night.  My brother was freaking and ask; "what was that"? I calmly looked over at him and said, "there goes the sun deck". Then I laughed and say; "Now we having fun".  This help ease the tension.

So, really think about attitude and how to handle situations in a manner that help encourage everyone and not add to their fear. When it over everyone will have an experience worth remembering and telling with excitement. Not something where everyone look back thinking how miserable things were.

I hope this helps.  Many good reads here on the subject.


----------



## Jim H

Gryzio said:


> One of the best things a person can do to prepare is work on their attitude. Nothing can kill a child's excitement faster than getting mad all the time. And it works for adults also. I have a few friends I really not boat with often. They already mad getting off the dock.
> 
> Keeping a positive attitude layered with a little humor helps.
> 
> I hope this helps.  Many good reads here on the subject.


Gryzio,

These are all good points, and ones we've considered often. For example, we've talked a great deal about "Are we really suited to this cruising idea, especially with kids? Are we flexible and calm enough? Are we going to hate each other? Have we done anything like this in the past that indicates whether we're up to it?"

Interestingly, there are examples that make us feel good about our chances and attitude. Maybe it started with us as kids, when camping is what was done in the summer, in old canvas tents in the hot, dusty Oregon cascades or wet Oregon coast. As children, both my wife and I learned to love that type of vacation, and we purposely have passed that to our kids. (It seems like adults don't pick up that type of enjoyment unless they did it as kids.)

We've also spent long periods of time together. My wife and I camped across the US by car twice. With our kids, we've done extended camping and yurting and lived away from family both in the US and now in Europe. We're a strong family unit, overall, and hiking in the cold and rain is commonplace. (This morning we did a cold, hour-long hike across Hampstead Heath to have New Years brunch at Kenwood House.)

As for sailing, spending a week on a 28 footer with four of us was a joy, not a hardship. Even when the weather got rough, my daughter took pride (as an eight year old) in her ability to help in the cockpit with the chartplotter. There was some times of fear, but never anger or yelling. That's one thing we keep off the boat, even if we pile into a floating log, etc. It's never anyone's "fault" when something goes wrong. It's never the crew's fault if something goes awry (something even the RYA sailing schools had to learn the hard way).

Anyway, I like your points about "attitude," and I think you're right that a family without experience in the outdoors might be in for a surprise if going sailing for a month or a year is in the near future. I think its also true that if you have anger problems ashore, they aren't going to disappear at sea. If there's a positive "unit cohesion," it's not just a sign that a family may do well when cruising, but perhaps an indication that they really should go cruising, to build on their strengths. The payoff could be life-long, for decades after the cruise is over.

Thanks, and have a happy new year.

Jim H
London, UK


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## Jim H

*2008 Update*

A quick update:

We've had almost a week and a half to research and think about our sailing plans as a family. We didn't travel during this holiday break, because first I was too sick and then my daughter was sick, but we did have a lot of time to research, think and talk.

We have many paths. As noted in earlier posts, my wife and I are loving the RYA sailing courses, and we've both paid for 13 week evening Dayskipper Courses, followed by week-long cruises across the channel and back in May and June. We have to go separately because of the kids, but some have recommended this is better for a couple anyway. By summer, we should have our first continental cruises under our belts, and our RYA Dayskipper certifications.

The only thing we really hate about these plans is that we don't sail as a family. Both of our kids are really keyed up about taking Opti sailing courses in the spring, and I will buy them an opti if they love the courses and want to sail at Welsh Harp resevoir north of town. That's all good for their learning curve, but it really bugs us that we won't cruise for a week as a family this year, unless we find time to charter in the UK, Europe or Puget Sound.

We also miss owning and caring for a boat. If we had a boat in the UK, we would have spent a week on it over this holiday break, and possibly again in Feb. and March, and then up to a month in the summer. Financially, owing a boat here is VERY expensive (figure 50% higher on the purchase cost, and then around $6,000 minimum a year for moorage.) Financially, it makes more sense to own a 15 foot sailing dinghy at Welsh Harp, and cruise with the RYA school or charter and not own a boat. Financially, it makes sense to wait 4-5 years or more, and buy a boat back in Puget Sound to start multi-year cruising.

As you can guess, though, financial sense doesn't always fit with boat ownership, so we're looking at boats here and trying to find loopholes. What could we buy for around $100,000, and then afford to moor and own? If it were like a second home to us, on the coast, how many weeks a year could we use it. Could we cruise the Med in it in the future. Would it be good enough for a one-year Atlantic circuit? What about a multi-year cruise?

All fun questions, and all relate back to our learning curve, attitude and objectives as a family. In a perfect world, we'd have a solid, seaworthy boat large enough for extended cruising but easily enough to daysail. Here's the boats we plan to see:

Rival 36
Rustler 36
Westerly Corsair 36
Westerly Oceanranger 38

For a lighter weight alternative, we may also consider a Sigma 38. As much as I like Nicholson 35s and 38s, most are in rough shape and are probably too heavy for light air-- they are too dedicated as ocean boats. We like Malos and Hallberg Rasseys, but I don't know if we'd find a suitable one in the $100,000 range.

All of these boats have done extended cruising and Atlantic circuits, but also all of them are a bit less that heavy duty ocean boats, like Valiants and Passports. Also, they are in our general price range. Some are basically equipped, and others have been extensively outfitted and updated by previous owners. We have to weigh peel jobs vs. non-epoxied bottoms, engines, standing rigging, and sail conditions.

As for moorage, we're open to many ideas, mostly 1-2 hour train rides out of London. That might mean Ipswitch or Brighton, or Port Solent or Gosport. Brighton has the drawback of exiting right onto the Channel instead of the Solent, but it is less expensive for a full marina and the town has a lot of attractions for week-long stays when the weather prevents sailing.

Anyway, that's where we are. We hope to travel this weekend to see one or more of the boats listed above, and to learn more from owners and brokers about moorage options and costs. We also have to learn more about insurance requirements and costs. Lots to learn, and it might be best to hold off on buying for another year, but this legwork is important either way. In the end, I don't think we can hold off on owning a boat for too many years, if we want to build experience sailing as a family and mastering boat maintenance.

Thanks!

Jim H
London, UK


----------



## sailingdog

You can probably find a Hallberg Rassy Rasmus in that price range. It's 35 LOA IIRC.


----------



## Jim H

sailingdog said:


> You can probably find a Hallberg Rassy Rasmus in that price range. It's 35 LOA IIRC.


Yup, but then we'd be committing to a 1970s boat vs. a late eighties or early nineties Westerly.

Most of the HR Rasmus boats we've seen so far have been less expensive (around $70k), but in rougher shape, and I'm not a fan of the long side galley interior design. Example:

http://ybw.yachtworld.com/core/uk/l...y=GBP&access=Public&listing_id=50289&url=true

In contrast, consider this 1990 Westerly Oceanranger with a new engine:

http://ybw.yachtworld.com/core/uk/l...y=GBP&access=Public&listing_id=29864&url=true

The difference is significant in the asking prices ($70k vs. $130k), but I haven't seen heavily updated 1970s Rasmus boats yet that I'd consider in the same league. The newer HR 352s seem to start in the $165,000 range over here. So, it all seems to be a matter of steps.

We don't need a 1990s boat, but I'd rather stay in the range of 1985 or newer, unless there was something really amazing from the 1970s (usually in the range of lavishly updated and maintained by a previous owner to pristine condition.)


----------



## sailingdog

A friend of mine has one that is in wonderful shape... That's pretty much the only reason I mentioned them.


----------



## Valiente

Jim H said:


> The only thing we really hate about these plans is that we don't sail as a family. Both of our kids are really keyed up about taking Opti sailing courses in the spring, and I will buy them an opti if they love the courses and want to sail at Welsh Harp resevoir north of town. That's all good for their learning curve, but it really bugs us that we won't cruise for a week as a family this year, unless we find time to charter in the UK, Europe or Puget Sound.


Don't get worried about this: I consider it a plus. My wife and I are crewing separately on purpose, and my son will do Optimist this year, naturally alone. I think it's important that everyone learn at his/her own pace and that everyone brings their own experience in a variety of conditions to the table. Why? Because everyone (including the kid if he takes short watches by 11 or 12 years of age) *is captain of that watch*.

My wife is less experienced than I am and needs the most "beefing up". She is taking nav courses this winter that I took seven years ago, and I want her to crew on a delivery, preferably U.S. to B.V.I.s or something well-travelled. That way, she'll gain experience and skills that I *don't* currently possess, and which will be complementary to my own. Similarly, if my kid takes dinghy sailing for a few years, he'll bring something to the table in the form of sail trim I might not possess, because I've never sailed dinghies.

Sailing as a family is great for the interpersonal dynamic side of things, but on passage, there is usually only one person in charge. Even if I am "captain", if I wake up from a four-hour nap, it is my wife who will have made all the decisions...which I am unlikely to second-guess until I have woken up and apprised the situation.

The alternative is that you are the captain 24/7 and your crew can't grow into the semi-autonomous roles necessary. The sea is a dynamic system, and this must be mirrored in the "command structure" of the boat. In a time of crisis, one person may naturally fall into the role of leader due to aggregate experience, skills and even strength. But if, say, I sustained a concussion in a knock-down, I would hope that my wife would know how to save the boat (and our lives) by taking charge.

Besides, I'm the better cook. Galley slave holds no terrors for me!


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## Jim H

Valiente said:


> I think it's important that everyone learn at his/her own pace and that everyone brings their own experience in a variety of conditions to the table. Why? Because everyone (including the kid if he takes short watches by 11 or 12 years of age) *is captain of that watch*.


I don't disagree. My wife took all of her ASA certifications on her own, and my son did Opti classes for two summers on his own. I'm glad we're doing the RYA certs the same way, and that my daughter is now going to sail an Opti on her own. The independence is great.

It's just that I'm going to miss the day sails that we used to do on our Cal 20 and C&C 27 together, and the weekend trips. I'll also miss the week-long charters on Puget Sound. They didn't replace the independent learning, but complimented it with the family sailing together. Learning to work together as a crew, and taking on shared roles, is something I'm loathe to forgo for a year.

Anyway, it's just another challenge-- either to find time to charter, or figure out how to afford something long-term as our local boat. I'm gradually figuring out how moorings are done here, and what different ones cost, and hopefully I'll find something that fits the bill. (I have to admit I'm missing the $85 a month private slip on Columbia river we had ).

BTW, at the moment my wife is actually ahead of me on RYA certifications, and don't imagine that she doesn't remind me of it frequently... It's cool that you want your wife to do a delivery, and we had friends in the Pacific Northwest who did that around the globe for years. Not commercial deliveries, but sailing back race boats after events. An example is Oregon Offshore-- after the race from Astoria to Puget Sound, an entire second crew would sail a fair number of the boats back to Portland, Oregon, and get their first, low-stress off-shore experience in the process (on safe, certified and safely equipped boats).


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## sailingdog

Valiente-

Sounds like a very sensible approach to prepping crew for the upcoming trip.


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## Valiente

We're doing what we can. I know two things about my wife, one of which she has great potential as a sailor, and the other of which is she doesn't much like being at a knowledge disadvantage to me...I don't like that either. Having a steel boat is helping her learn how to dock, at least...it's only paint.


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## starboardyacht

ladyh said:


> Do it for your kids.....look a a used Amel....great family cruising boat......and my thoughts on cruising
> 
> Go Cruising Now
> 
> When should one go cruising??? I asked myself that question 1000's of times when I was still tied to land. I define happiness as living my dream of cruising&#8230;. The following was emailed to me&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;how true it is&#8230;.I think back over the last 2 ½ yrs and all the cruiser WANT2B's who would want to ask this cruiser the same questions I asked for the last 20 yrs as my wife and I chartered sailboats in the Caribbean and other exotic places where the CRUISER migrated because he could&#8230;. 98% of these WANT2B's never go because the wait till&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;..
> My Father, God bless his sole worked till he was 62&#8230;.yes he retired a few years early&#8230;but died 2 yrs later&#8230;.no he did not go fish all those trout and steelhead rivers he always dreamed of while working&#8230;..cut the land lines and GO&#8230;and Go NOW.
> 
> I'll be happy when...
> >
> > We convince ourselves that life will be better after we get married, have a baby, then another. Then we are frustrated that the kids aren't old enough and we'll be more content when they are. After that, we're frustrated that we have teenagers to deal with. We will certainly be happy when they are out of that stage. We tell ourselves that our life will be complete when our spouse gets his or her act together, when
> we get a nicer car, when we are able to go on a nice vacation or when we retire. The truth is there's no better time to be happy than right now. If not now, when? Your life will always be filled with challenges.
> >
> > It's best to admit this to yourself and decide to be happy anyway. Happiness is the way. So, treasure every moment that you have and treasure it more because you shared it with someone special, special enough to spend your time with .... and remember that time waits for no
> one.
> > So, stop waiting ...
> > Until your car or home is paid off.
> > Until you get a new car or home.
> > Until your kids leave the house.
> > Until you go back to school.
> > Until you finish school.
> > Until you lose 10 lbs.
> > Until you gain 10 lbs.
> > Until you get married.
> > Until you get a divorce.
> > Until you have kids.
> > Until the kids have graduated from college
> > Until you retire.
> > Until summer..
> > Until spring.
> > Until winter.
> > Until the boat is paid for.
> > Until fall.
> > Until you die.
> >
> > There is no better time than right now to be happy. Happiness is a
> journey, not a destination. So work like you don't need money, love
> like you've never been hurt, and, dance like no one's watching.
> 
> I would have liked to recieved that 10 yrs ago....the the wife would have made the trip...she did always want a " boat baby"...funny thing....boat kids do better in college...and in life ....cruising is unique...special people....with a different slant on life....Capt Paul>


Great post......... just what the doctor ordered...... thanks


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## Jim H

*A quick update on this thread. *

I still like the original premise of the thread, but I haven't been able to work out the sustainability elements of how to afford to leave, cruise, and then return and still have something for the kids' college tuition etc.

It could still work, especially if my wife and I taught English as we cruised, but since the start of this thread in May 2006, we've done a lot of thinking and acting. We've owned a 27 footer and now a 34 footer. We moved overseas. We've progressively built on our experience base both individually and as a family.

More than anything, building on the experience base has been the number one priority. That's maybe the best answer to the question posed in the title of this thread.

To build on the experience base is expensive, though. It may mean that you don't exclusively save for the cruising kitty, for example. I think that's the main paradox. To save for the cruising kitty, you should live like you are already cruising, minimize expenses, etc. That would also mean not chartering too much, or owning interim boats, until you are within 2 years of departing and then you buy "the boat" and starting pumping money in it.

In the end, I think this approach is flawed. It's too much "putting off" for something "big" in the future, instead of just doing all you can in the present and seeing what happens. I guess I've seen too many examples of the big boat being saved for, bought, prepped, and then the trip either doesn't happen or is cut short for one of a million reasons. Too much investment risk, maybe.

Anyway, that's our excuse for owning a 34 footer now, instead of saving for some 40-42 footer in the future. (I still haven't seen a 42 foot cruising baot that I'd day sail for fun....) We get to sail now, learn more, and see what happens. That's the plan really-- sail and see what happens.

I'll post a report from our English Channel and Solent sailing last week later this afternoon. For an alternative view, see the Rard website, where they did go for the multi-year break with their kids--
Ruby Slippers » Rard Family Ocean Adventure

Meanwhile, here's a pic from yesterday:










Fair winds!


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## Valiente

Actually, Jim, we take our "barge" out for daysails frequently. It's our break from otherwise thinking of it as a construction site.

We also stay on the boat even at dock a fair bit, because the boat has A/C and our poor old house doesn't!


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## hphoen

Jim,

Thanks for posting the update. It's nice to hear how things work out for people with the "cruising dream".

All the best,


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## emagin

Ahhhhck!
Click
Click
Click

Wha???
No more pages.

This story ends?

Nooooo!


----------



## emagin

Started sailing 3 years ago.
Why so late in life god only knows.
Have 2 kids
Wife loves sailing
Going to Mexico next month
And will be very upset if we are not on a boat in Cortez by 2009


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## sailingdog

Get lots of practice coastal cruising before you set out... 


emagin said:


> Started sailing 3 years ago.
> Why so late in life god only knows.
> Have 2 kids
> Wife loves sailing
> Going to Mexico next month
> And will be very upset if we are not on a boat in Cortez by 2009


----------



## emagin

Thanks for that, no doubt.
I live in the SF bay area, so plenty of wind even locally.
SF to San Diego, LA to SF couple of times, north to Eureka, etc.
Lots more to learn.
Kids need to get used to 30+ kts double reefed or hove to as well.


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## Jim H

emagin said:


> Wha???
> No more pages.
> 
> This story ends?
> 
> Nooooo!


When one becomes completely polluted with an idea, it's hard for the story to end... 

*A rough update:*

1) We completely streamlined our possessions. No house, no cars, no junk. We kept a beach lot on the Oregon coast.

2) We moved to London, where the kids are increasingly excited about living in Europe.

3) We bought a nicely sea-worthy Rival 34, fully restored and ready to go. We sail almost every other weekend on the Solent.

4) We're taking extensive RYA certification courses. My wife has more than I do, but I have the Dayskipper rating already. (She'll finish her's soon.) We both did 13 evenings of theory courses and passed the exam (excellent chart work experience).

5) My wife and I both crossed the English channel earlier in May/June, with experienced Yachtmasters on separate trips. (Her to Channel Islands, me to Normandie).

6) We just got back from a great four days and nights of cruising to/from the Isle of Wight.

So, what's our *possible future*?


Yachtmaster Theory Certifications
International TOEFL Certificates for Teaching English
Travel Photography Courses
An upgrade to a 42 foot off-shore capable boat, when we need it
2-5 years of cruising, starting in a few years

So, maybe things are going slower than others might like, but we do something just about every week that adds to a possible future like the one above. As the kids get older, they are more interested in the plan, and more confident they can be full and essential crew members.

I guess it's one of those things where the process is as important as the end, overall.

Have a great time in Mexico-- we still read Latitude 38 all the time online. How long do you plan to cruise?


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## Jim H

*Time for another quick update.* It's been over four years since the first post, and almost two years since the last update.

We continue to live in London, UK, and tweak and improve our '73 Rival 34. This year she got a full rigging check, new primary winches, and a full bottom check and new anodes. We had the life raft re-certified and we have a new EPIRB. One of her windows broke a few weeks ago (just cracked up in the frame while at the dock), and that's being repaired this week.

As for classes, I did complete my Yachtmaster Theory course last winter, and I've done the First Aid, Radar, and others. My wife has also done the First Aid and Diesel, and in the next couple of years will do her Yachtmaster Theory course over a winter.

We had to cancel most of our longer sails this summer because I had a massive project at work for the entire summer, but that's slowing down now so we have some shorter trips planned this month and in October.

We went to the Southampton Boat Show yesterday and picked up an indoor butane heater that runs off of "Butane Battery" cartridges that are supposed to last about 1.75 hours each. It puts off Carbon Dioxide but not Carbon monoxide.

Next summer we're planning two to three weeks of sailing to France and the Channel Islands on our boat with the kids.

We love our Rival 34, but it's always fun to think about the next boat. Our kids are getting larger and older, and before too long they'll be looking at colleges. At the boat show yesterday we decided that we might start thinking of a "next boat" to coincide with our 50th b-days in a few years. By that point, we'll likely have dual citizenship if we are still living in the UK, which will make it easier to sell our Rival and buy another boat.

At the boat show, our favorite boats again were the smaller Arcona sailboats, a Swedish boat that is more affordable than HRs and similar:









Arcona 34 foot









Arcona 37 foot

What's fun to think about is having a five to eight year boat loan for the next boat, and having a budget of around 100,000 sterling, so that work on paying off a new, possibly larger boat in the last years before early retirement (while also helping kids with college costs, etc.). In the end, we want a boat that would be good for cruising for two most of the time, so we're not considering overly large or heavy boats.

The Arcona are great new boats and not over priced in the 34 to 37 foot range, but they are somewhat rare. We'd also consider up to a 40 foot older Ovni, or a newer up-to 40 foot Dufour.

The Dufour was our second favorite boat of the show yesterday:










We could likely look for a newer 40e performance model in the future. All things being equal, I'd be happy with the 34e, but if we're going to retire early to cruise for a few years, we're going to need space. Some could say the Dufour is "too light" for long range cruising, but I'm open to consider it. In our budget, we could have a 2000 model or newer.

So, that's the update. We sail as much with the kids as possible, in voyages of 1 to 3 weeks. We own and maintain an older 34 foot that is very stable and safe, but heavy. We're planning for a lighter but manageable newer boat in the next 3-4 years. We're balancing saving for college with current sailing costs and long-term sailing costs. We like the idea of dual citizenship and early retirement.

The lists goes on. It's fun, however. If you go back to the original post, one might ask "what about cruising with the kids for five years?" For us, living overseas is much like cruising (we take vacations on the continent, and we're planning a week vacation in Malta for xmas, we sail across the English Channel), so in some ways that desire was fulfilled in a different way. As the kids grew older, we gave in to the financial side of things (how do we get them a great K12 education, how do we save for their college funds, how do we save for an early retirement and still have health benefits, how do we sail as much as possible, in interesting places, while achieving all these goals).

So, for now, that's the course we're on.


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## JohnRPollard

Jim,

It's always great to hear from you. I always make a point to read your updates from the european boatshows and your chronicles from family sailing vacations in and around the UK.

Sounds like you've struck a good balance for your family. Afterall, circumnavigating isn't the only way to experience the joys of sailing with your family. And while the ocean is a wonderful place to explore, there's certainly a lot to see on land, too!

Those Arconas are hot looking boats. Personally, I haven't seen them over here yet. What's the "word" on them? Less costly than an HR, but how do they compare quality-wise? Where would they fall in the HR/Malo/Najad spectrum?


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## Faster

Thanks for the update Jim... sounds like you have a pretty good 'plan' and that it's going to work out.

...btw... what of your poor lonely Cal in Portland?


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## Jim H

JohnRPollard said:


> Those Arconas are hot looking boats. Personally, I haven't seen them over here yet. What's the "word" on them? Less costly than an HR, but how do they compare quality-wise? Where would they fall in the HR/Malo/Najad spectrum?


Arcona's (Arconae?) are cool and surprisingly well priced. If I've listened correctly, the bulkheads are tabbed to the hull during the construction process, instead of fitted into a liner, and they use a galvanized steel structure in the hull running the length of the keel and taking the load of the rig:










We've talked with an owner, and the response was that the strength and stiffness of the boat was what sold them on it, along with a spirited sailing ability and easy of handling. In rougher conditions, the boats supposed tuck into a groove and hold it (with none of the flexing and popping that can occur otherwise).

What I like about this concept is that the boats are said to be much stiffer and stronger than the typical mass produced model, but they aren't exceptionally heavy. They appear much "racier" than the typical HR or Najad, and they mostly have aft racing-style cockpits with the mainsheet right in front of a large, central wheel.

The cabins, however, are more like a comfortable cruising boat. Not heavy wood, but not acres of plain fiberglass either. We both preferred the interior to a Dufour.

In the end, I think the HRs and Najads are great, but they are very expensive over here (maybe 2.5 times the cost of a production Dufour or Jeanneau), and heavy, and typically center cockpit and maybe not perfect in light airs. In contrast, the Arcona's could be a nice step up from a typical production boat, stiff and nice below, but lighter with a performance bent and a more active cockpit. Fun, in other words, but safe and possibly easy to handle.


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## Jim H

Faster said:


> Thanks for the update Jim... sounds like you have a pretty good 'plan' and that it's going to work out.
> 
> ...btw... what of your poor lonely Cal in Portland?


The mighty Cal 20 isn't lonely-- my brother is the main owner now, and he takes her out fairly frequently. He's a bit of a chef, and I've heard of his amazing meals coming out of the cabin of the Cal 20 to a cockpit table he designed so he could have dinner parties aboard at anchor in quiet areas of the Columbia River.


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