# My Boat was Hit Bad



## cktalons (Jun 2, 2011)

Today, while I was ashore and my boat at anchor, my beloved 30 foot Islander was struck on the port side cabin by a 30 powerboat, leaving a gaping hole in the top cabin. The hit ripped a stanchion from the deck, taking the wood core with it. The top cabin has a wide hole, fiberglass and wood from the interior of the boat, splintered everywhere. I've already had the police out to file a formal report, and the officer talked to the other boater. Tomorrow I'll talk with the insurance company of the person who hit my boat. My plan is to have the boat surveyed immediately, determine if the damage is a.)repairable b.)if the boat is safe to be motored or towed to a yard, or c.)whether the cost of repair exceeds the value of the boat.

The horrible issue to all of this is that I LIVE aboard my boat. I have no experience with this at all and educated advice is welcomed. A google search on what to do when a boat's been hit, returned articles on boating accidents. I'd appreciate stories from people who've been in a similar situation.

The good news is the other boater has insurance and has already contacted their company. There was no hit and run. Right now I'm at a loss, as my beloved boat has been terribly damaged.

Advice? Tips?


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## groggy (Aug 18, 2011)

condolences. good luck with the insurance rep. 

having had this experience with non-boat vehicles, you should of course talk to your insurance rep as well to find out what your options are, esp wrt living costs during repair and stuff.

dont trust the other persons insurance rep. 

you prob already know that, but im just sayin.


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

Whatever you do, don't take anything from the other guy's insurance until you have an estimate from someone _you_ hire (_your_ surveyor, _your_ boatyard). Be particularly leery if the adjuster offers to settle with you right now, based on little more than his/her eyeballing the damage. Like groggy said, "dont trust the other persons insurance rep." A surveyor will give you a ballpark estimate, a boatyard will (probably) give you a much better estimate (although a good surveyor will consult with a boatyard when s/he writes up an estimate of the repairs).


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## sea_hunter (Jul 26, 2000)

You might want a marine liability lawyer to negotiate your side. Issues can come up from left field, like the other party arguing you were anchored in a navigable channel or that your anchor dragged or some other way to negate your claim. Obviously you'll need a place to stay while repairs or a replacement vessel can be accomplished and insurance companies frown at liveaboards so negotiations will have to be delicate and finessed by a professional. Keep in mind almost anything can be repaired and while a huge inconvenience, there's always a lesson learned. The damage doesn't look as bad as it feels and can be fixed, but get a couple of yards to estimate the damage, don't rely on insurance companies to be looking out for you. Good luck on the repairs and hang in there, all will be well.


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## SimonV (Jul 6, 2006)

Just went through this myself but here in Oz. First thing contact your insurance tell them what happened ASAP and inform them, you are going to claim on the other party's insurance (this covers you, should the other party's insurer tries to weasel out) If you don't have insurance (which is my guess), what ever you do do not tell their insurer this ( as I use an offshore company I would loose some of my no claim bonus so it was not a fib in my case, but the other party insurer did query why I was not using my insurer) Get 2 independent quotes from the best ship rites in your area and a quote from 2 nice motels ( mine offered a flat nightly rate for accommodation). I did not get a survey as I trusted the ship rite and my own observation and experience. Good luck.
This was what I had to contend with http://svgoodonya.blogspot.com.au/2012/03/what-day.html


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

I am so sorry that this happened, ck. Hang in there, and take the excellent advice given so far in this thread.


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## Southron Spirit (Dec 3, 2011)

i would like to know what this guy was doing besides driving that he did not see a 30 ft sailboat . 
like was he even at the wheel


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## captainrizzo (Feb 24, 2008)

I am glad you were ashore when this happened. Boats can be fixed. You have to be thankful that you were not injured (guessing a lawyer would disagree) but I am talking about bodily! I agree with getting your own survey and I would try to get those costs covered as well. Best of luck.


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## Tim R. (Mar 23, 2003)

Sorry to hear about your accident. I agree about calling your insurance agent. Let them look out for you. Repairing your boat properly is in their best interest.

That actually does not look too bad although it is gut wrenching. I had a launch hit and crack the gelcoat on our home and it still makes me sick to think about it.

It should be safe to move but do not do so until a surveyor has a look. Get some metal duct tape and some thick plastic to seal up the boat asap to prevent further damage from weather.

Good luck and keep us in the loop on how this progresses. Hopefully you have some friends to stay with. If you were in Maine, my wife and I would gladly host you and Riley. Our Shamus would enjoy having a friend to hang out with.


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## wingNwing (Apr 28, 2008)

Yikes!! 

Others have given you more specific suggestions, I'd add: don't do any "fixing" until you have survey and damage estimates, but you can stabilize the situation - for example, tarp over that hole before your Pacific NW rains ruin the interior.


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## jimjazzdad (Jul 15, 2008)

CK,

Sorry to see the damage to your boat (your home!). Marine insurance varies country to country. Might be worth paying a limited amount for legal advice, given that you live in litigacious USA. When my neighbor's boat dragged and hit my boat in a storm, we both reported it to our insurance companies, which turned out to be the same company. Although both boats were repaired satisfactorily, the insurance company said the blame was shared and wanted both of us to pay deductables. Fortunately my neighbor is a good guy and paid my deductable out of his own pocket. You are right to go after the power boater's insurance company. If you involve your insurance company, make sure that they know you are exercising your "right of subrogation" to go after the other party for full damages. Good luck. Hope you have a speedy resoution.


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## ronspiker (Jun 27, 2001)

If you have to move out because of repairs you might be able to get reimbursed for the cost of living someplace else while your home is being fixed.


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

My boat was hit but only received cosmetic damage. Still the cost to repair was staggering. Nearly covered what I paid for the boat. It was my insurance that paid as it was considered an "act of God" (another boat broke free of it's mooring during a storm).

You don't say what state you live in or type/age of boat. If you are in New England, I'm guessing the cost to repair is going to be high, there could be a wait and your boat might have to be moved inside for the winter to get it done.

DO NOT go with anyone but the best for your estimate and repairs. This has to be done right the first time. Mentally prepare yourself for the damage to surpass the value of the boat.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

Keep a DAILY written log of ALL YOUR ACTIVITIES related to the accident with a column for the costs AND KEEP RECEIPTS. TAKE PICTURES>

Assume that in 13 months time the other insurance company is going to try and weasel out of paying the claim or related costs. Having a contemporaneous record of your activities will be 85% of the battle. 

Hope your baby is restored to health in a hurry!

Fellow full time liveaboard.


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## Skipper Jer (Aug 26, 2008)

1972 Islander MK II is a nice boat. The interior is nicely done. Sorry to hear that this happened to you. Be grateful no one was injured.
As a previous poster has said, "Mentally prepare yourself for the damage to surpass the value of the boat."


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

Captainmeme said:


> 1972 Islander MK II is a nice boat. The interior is nicely done. Sorry to hear that this happened to you. Be grateful no one was injured.
> As a previous poster has said, "Mentally prepare yourself for the damage to surpass the value of the boat."


I see now that it's a '72 Islander. Start deciding now if you can figure out a way to do the repairs yourself or do you know someone who can help you... IF the insurance company will pay you for the boat then allow you to buy it back for less than $1000.

From the picture I can see some hull to deck joint damage... that will probably total it or repairs (even if you buy the boat back and do them yourself) will be costly and messy.

If you plan on continuing to live aboard, prepare to walk away and start shopping for another boat.

If you plan on walking away, start by getting everything that is not bolted down off the boat before you sign anything. Remove any electronics that are worth saving and moving to your next boat. The insurance company will probably only give you what the book value is.

1978 Islander Price, 1978 Islander Value & Used 1978 Islander Specs | NADAguides | NADA Marine Appraisal Guides


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## cktalons (Jun 2, 2011)

Wow, thanks for all the advice, guys.

I do have a witness to the accident, but let me give you the bullet points.

Accident happened around 3:30 while I was ashore, and thank goodness for that. The boat was hit so hard I could've been seriously injured.

The powerboater left a note in my cockpit acknowledging that he hit me, saying he lost control of one of his engines. He later said his transmission went out. I'm not sure what happened, but the witness said the boater collided into Libby under great power while trying to anchor and hit me more than once and pushed the boat. My boat was securely anchored and thus didn't give. She was and still is well out of the traffic lanes. This happened in Liberty Bay, which is one of the largest anchorages in the PNW. Both the police officer and I questioned how anyone could be struck in such a large anchorage. Whether it was the boater's transmission, engine control loss, or something else, I'm going to leave the investigation up to the police.

I've taken pictures of the hole, both from the inside and the outside. The boater and his wife came over later, as I was in a stake of shock and panic, and wrapped up the area with plastic wrap and duct tape.

I don't want to get into too many specifics regards the boater's identity or type of boat, but the boat was a powerful one and hit me hard. His insurance is BoatUS, so I'm hopeful. I've mentally prepared that the costs of repair may exceed the purchase price of the boat, but that's also a bummer. The boats on the market today, in my area and my price range, don't come close to my Libby. I got her for a great deal. Right now I'm gathering as much advice and information as I can before taking action.

Thank you all so much for the offers of help and advice, and I appreciate the referrals to reputable shipwrights and boatyards in the Pacific Northwest.


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

Typically, if the estimated cost of repairs is greater then 50% of the boats insured value, the insurance co. will deem it a Constructive (?) Total Loss, or CTL. If they deem it a CTL then they would pay you the insured value of your boat - but they will then own your boat. This is why some have mentioned 'buying your boat back' from the insurer for, say, $1000. You would then use the remainder of the claim money to repair your boat, or, take the entire claim and buy a new boat (leaving your damaged boat as property of Boat US). 
My boat was badly damaged from running away from her mooring in a storm. It was declared a 'CTL'. We bought it back for $800 and took the remainder of the money to repair and replace the damages. The following year we were NOT able to get insurance from any provider because of the 'CTL' (Boat US dropped us like a hot potato). One of their up front 'red flag' questions when you apply for a marine policy is "Have you incurred a CTL within the last 3 years?". 
I'm not sure how this will work out for you as Boat US is the insurer of another boater who was at fault. 
My point is that you need to be a bit careful here. Padding the repair estimate can back fire on you if you subsequently can't get insurance because of another persons mistake. If the repair estimate is less than 50% of the boats value you should be ok. I strongly urge you to contact your insurer to find out what your options are.

Pictures often don't do justice in this case but the damage you incurred is repairable to a like new condition. Off the top of my head I'd guess that the materials for the repair should not cost more then $1K but the labor rate can be quite high and add up quickly.

You might want to talk to Charles Bagget: Baggett and Sons Marine Restoration


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Jeez that sucks CK. I hope this works out for you.

And +1 on Caleb's receommendation of Charlie. Seriously good guy.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

CalebD said:


> Typically, if the estimated cost of repairs is greater then 50% of the boats insured value, the insurance co. will deem it a Constructive (?) Total Loss, or CTL. If they deem it a CTL then they would pay you the insured value of your boat - but they will then own your boat. This is why some have mentioned 'buying your boat back' from the insurer for, say, $1000. You would then use the remainder of the claim money to repair your boat, or, take the entire claim and buy a new boat (leaving your damaged boat as property of Boat US).
> My boat was badly damaged from running away from her mooring in a storm. It was declared a 'CTL'. We bought it back for $800 and took the remainder of the money to repair and replace the damages. The following year we were NOT able to get insurance from any provider because of the 'CTL' (Boat US dropped us like a hot potato). One of their up front 'red flag' questions when you apply for a marine policy is "Have you incurred a CTL within the last 3 years?".
> I'm not sure how this will work out for you as Boat US is the insurer of another boater who was at fault.
> My point is that you need to be a bit careful here. Padding the repair estimate can back fire on you if you subsequently can't get insurance because of another persons mistake. If the repair estimate is less than 50% of the boats value you should be ok. I strongly urge you to contact your insurer to find out what your options are.
> ...


I second the vote for Baggett and Sons, they will only take on a job if they can to do top notch work, and they are less expensive than most boat yards as they have fairly recently just started the company. I am sure he would give honest advice and if he does not want to do the work, he will surely send you in the right direction. I don't know him personally, but have seen his work and it is top notch.

Glad no one was hurt! (even the power boater) Injuries can really ramp up the situation as liability can be much bigger. Plus we never want to see one of our members get injured.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

Agreed, it's easier to fix or God forbid replace a boat than a person.

Hard to tell from the picture. Was she damaged at the hull/deck joint?


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## dongreerps (May 14, 2007)

You have been given lots of advise, which all seems good. Unfortunately everyone is avoiding another issue. My wife is a practicing clinical psychologist, and I have spent more nights than I care to remember in emergency rooms. What follows is hard won experience.
Your home was invaded and smashed. Fortunately by someone willing to take responsibility for his actions, but your home, your precious space was invaded. Not just your home space, but your personal space was violated. Your space, and you, have been violated. That is a four letter word.
If you are not really angry about it, you will be, and should be. The literature is replete with articles showing that when one's home is invaded, there is a sense that one's persona has been violated.
Every time you have to deal with the situation you will be reminded of the injury to your property, and also to you, and the knife will be twisted in your wound. 
Therefore get a personal representative to take the matter off your hands and deal with it so you do not have to have your face rubbed in having been violated at every turn. In this day and age that means a lawyer. One who will represent you fairly, without being vindictive. If you are vindictive, you will not feel good about yourself. So demand what is appropriate for you, not a jot less, and not a jot more.
You are entitled to be made whole again. That does not mean camping out in miserable living circumstances while some idiot debates whether they will use widgets or wadgets to repair the wangedo. That means being treated like the lady you so obviously are.
Please practice in front of a mirror drawing yourself up to your full imperial height, looking down your nose at the *** before you and declaiming "There are some questions a GENTLEMAN never asks a LADY." Instruct your lawyer to interject , if an answer is demanded, "Oh, so now we have established you are not a gentleman." Quietly.
If you are not angry, you should be. Anger requires some physical release. Go out and crew on every possible beer can race series. (Anybody out there ready to help a fellow sailor?) And talk talk talk to all your friends about the accident. Talk brings release.
And finally, and probably most importantly, although I do not know you, from you postings I have a sense of the sort of person you are. You are obviously real quality. I would be pleasured to know you, and honored to call you friend. I hope others will join me in this.


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## mtgayrum (May 19, 2012)

Get a good maritine lawyer they cost but are worth their salt


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

You can fix it and it's safe to move it. I rammed the hell out of my 40 foot dive boat backing in to a cement dock when the gear shift broke. Did way more damage. You can cut a boat in half and glass it back together. Get some plastic and duck tape for now...and get more money than it actually cost's to fix and take your self out on the town for your trouble.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

dongreerps said:


> You have been given lots of advise, which all seems good. Unfortunately everyone is avoiding another issue. My wife is a practicing clinical psychologist, and I have spent more nights than I care to remember in emergency rooms. What follows is hard won experience.
> Your home was invaded and smashed. Fortunately by someone willing to take responsibility for his actions, but your home, your precious space was invaded. Not just your home space, but your personal space was violated. Your space, and you, have been violated. That is a four letter word.
> If you are not really angry about it, you will be, and should be. The literature is replete with articles showing that when one's home is invaded, there is a sense that one's persona has been violated.
> Every time you have to deal with the situation you will be reminded of the injury to your property, and also to you, and the knife will be twisted in your wound.
> ...


Or you could just plug the hole with a pillow, shrug your shoulders, drive it to dock and hire some glass ratt to cut out the bad part and fix it.


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## cktalons (Jun 2, 2011)

dongreerps and all,
When I first saw the damage, I was horrorstruck, because yes, this is my home, and yes, I love this boat. I named her after a character from my novel, so to me, _Libby_ the boat has ties to Libby the character. She's "the instigator of all things brave." When I saw the hole in her, my heart broke. My home, my baby, my princess, my preciousness. I've put work into her, and working on a boat equals loving a boat. I've sailed her solo. She and I have a relationship. Of course I know she's an inatimate object, but she doesn't feel that way. We take care of each other. Right now, my biggest goal, what's keeping my mind abuzz, is making her well again.

I've been working on getting all of this sorted out ever since, talking about it a lot. Yesterday afternoon I nursed a terrible headache, was tense all night long, and stressing out, mostly because I'm not sure what's going to happen next and because my home was violated. There's a hole in my bedroom. I've gotten onto the phone with the insurance company and have gotten the proverbial ball moving. Their surveyor came out today, the boat yard rep is coming out tomorrow at 0700 for a repair estimate. My body is showing signs of stress and I'm listening. You'll be pleased to know that I'm an avid kick boxer. I missed class last night and this morning, but I'll go tomorrow night to relieve some of the tension. I'll also go for a brisk walk this evening to help flush some of these emotions out of me. Exercise is great and I believe in its healing powers.

Right now I'm still in the state of busyness, trying to make it all okay again, collecting facts, numbers, and recording every single thing that happens during this process. I've had people in the sailing community offer their help, in addition to the abundance of great advice. For right now, I'm okay, but as you know, these sorts of things have a delayed reaction. My mom is constantly checking in to make sure I'm handling it. Stress takes its toll, and I'm monitoring myself closely.

I started this thread last night, and this morning before talking to anyone, I read everyone's responses. I'm doing everything I can to ensure I'm doing this right. _Libby_ isn't just a toy to me, she's my home, my gateway to adventure, and part of my identity. I have treated the situation urgently, and so far the insurance company has complied and worked with me. I'm trying to stay as levelheaded as I can.

I'm so thankful for the sailing community. You guys rock my toe-socks. I'll know more about what's going to happen tomorrow morning when I get a rough cost estimate, but won't know what will happen for sure until the insurance company gives the repair a yay or nay vote. I'm hoping and praying for the best, whatever the best is.


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## cktalons (Jun 2, 2011)

mtgayrum said:


> Get a good maritine lawyer they cost but are worth their salt


One of my graphic design clients practices maritime law. If I need to, I'll give him a holler.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

ck, don't wait, ask that client now. Better to be armed in advance.

"Typically, if the estimated cost of repairs is greater then 50% of the boats insured value, the insurance co. will deem it a Constructive (?) Total Loss, or CTL." Caleb makes a point BUT I believe that only applies to your own insurer, as a matter of policy statement. In this case, the other guy's policy doesn't matter, he damaged your boat and home, and it is usual under liability law that the damaged party must be "made whole" again. Whether his policy has limits is not your concern right now. If they don't want to fix it, tell 'em to replace it, and to of course put you up in a decent local hotel while they're waiting to find the replacement vessel. Ka-ching, they'll quickly figure out it is cheaper to pay for the repairs.

Insurers are also very good at playing "Yeahwell its only worth five thousand that's the local sales prices" but often, their math is creative. If they try to quote you a price--tell them to substantiate that, in writing, with specific detail and condition, in accord with insurance law. Which often requires 'comparable' or 'market' pricing to be defined within fairly tight limits. Odds are, no boat substantially similar to yours has been sold within those time limits, geographic limits, etc. so the insurer's valuation is often a simple lie.

Call the county or state insurance commission, tell them what happened, and ask if there is anything you should be aware of. Including any citations for statutes that DO define those valuation terms. Usually those departments are very good at telling consumers what the laws actually are and what your rights are, while insurance companies tend to lie through their teeth about it.

If an insurer tells you "well that's the way it is" and you can reply "No, I've spoken to the insurance commission and they think otherwise" you tend to get paid better and faster, because the insurer can't pull the wool over your eyes so easily.

IF YOU CAN, i.e. if there's software that will work on your cellphone, RECORD YOUR CALLS to the other party and their insurer, if that's possible. From experience I tell you that insurers routinely lie through their teeth. Some are honest, sure, but when you can say "That's not what you said, do you want me to play the tape?" a lot of the liars get religion real fast. (I have no idea what the legalities of taping are out there.)

If there's no damage to the bilge, no water coming in, anchor rode still intact and attached, it should be safe to stay on board until you get a few things settled out. By all means, get an estimate from a yard and whatever way you work it out, make sure the other guy is going to pay whatever it comes to, not just the estimate. Plus your hotel/motel.

Take pictures. Now. From inside, outside, close, distant. Those are for your records, again in case there's any dispute down the line. When a boat is hit, the shock echoes all around the hull. The surveyor should literally be examining every bulkhead, every tab to the hull, every fitting on the standing rigging. It sounds like your keel and rudder should not be an issue and a haul not a concern--but ask the surveyor anyhow. Similarly, the anchor fittings have to be suspect, they took the strain.

If the other guy hears the estimate and his insurer starts waffling...funny how things can change. So try to document and record everything, and if the game changes, don't let them intimidate you. With insurers, you give them _one _carrot, _once_, and then switch to the stick.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

Looks to me like you had a stansion ripped out at the base and had a hole knocked in your cabin top. it sucks, But emotions a side, West System and wood and some heavy Glass Mat. Dude sounds like he's going to have it fixed for you one way or the other, Plug up the hole with something so you don't get rained on and fix it. I'd rather be with my boat in a time like this than in a hotel thinking about it. My boat sunk twice on me. . it will end up being the strongest part of your boat when it's done. I'd be wicked pissed and then sad and the whole emotional sequence as well, but at the end of the day, you're O.K., the boat will be O.K. Good story to tell.


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## Marcel D (Apr 15, 2012)

CK sorry to hear about your miss adventure. It dosen't look to bad mast is still standing. I have a couple of good yards you can chck out for repairs. First would be Crs marine out of Seattle, and the other are on Vancouver Island.
Delta Marine Services | Yacht Repair | Sidney BC
Jesperson Boat Builders - Canoe Cove Marina Vancouver Island 
All three yards should give good repair advice, are you in Canada or the USA?


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## Marcel D (Apr 15, 2012)

CK sorry to hear about your miss adventure. It dosen't look to bad mast is still standing. I have a couple of good yards you can check out for repairs. First would be Crs marine out of Seattle, and the other are on Vancouver Island.
Delta Marine Services Yacht Repair Sidney BC
Jesperson Boat Builders Canoe Cove Marina Vancouver Island 
All three yards should give good repair advice, are you in Canada or the USA?
Where were you anchored when this happened?


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Just wanted to say I am sorry for your incident. 

Brian


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

hellosailor said:


> "Typically, if the estimated cost of repairs is greater then 50% of the boats insured value, the insurance co. will deem it a Constructive (?) Total Loss, or CTL." Caleb makes a point BUT I believe that only applies to your own insurer, as a matter of policy statement. In this case, the other guy's policy doesn't matter, he damaged your boat and home, and it is usual under liability law that the damaged party must be "made whole" again.
> ...


HS,
Yes. I said I was not certain how this would work out since a 2nd parties insurance was really liable for the repairs and making things "whole" again for CK.

All I know is that I felt kind of screwed by the insurance racket even though we got a check for the face value for our boat (less then $7K minus the buy back fee of $800) as they would no longer insure my boat the next year.

Even after a short time of owning our boat I had also developed some emotional ties to her and did not want to take the insurance check to put towards another boat. I wanted to fix OUR boat and I ended up doing the fiberglass work to our hull/deck joint that got damaged among other repairs. I am now more irrationally and emotionally attached to my old boat then ever.

Hopefully CK will only have to do some kick boxing practice to help blow off some steam about this.

Hang in there CK.


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## Marcel D (Apr 15, 2012)

I have taken boats that were close to a total loss and fixed them its fiberglass just remember its fiber glass 12 to 1 bevel.


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## groggy (Aug 18, 2011)

cktalons said:


> One of my graphic design clients practices maritime law. If I need to, I'll give him a holler.


it would definitely be worth a quiet beer to have a casual conversation with your client/maritime lawyer about what to expect, and to see if he is interested/available/appropriately skilled/has recommendations in working with you on this should it be necessary.

sorry for the mangled syntax there.

try not to stress too much. hopefully its just wood and fiberglass and minor inconvenience. it may make a good story some day...


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

Not to minimize the loss, but the damage honestly doesn't look that bad. The hole is actually the easy part, just a grinder some glass and epoxy. The think that really scares me is the crack in the gell coat running long the hull-deck seam. If there was damage there, which seems likely, this candidate can spread along the seam. If this happens it could result in a totaled boat. The hole is a few grand, that crack could be much worse.

When dealing wi the yards, I would be sure to ask for a "not to exceed" quote. Or have one of the insurance companies agree to accept whatever bill they agree to with the yard, and leave you out of it. It is done all the time with cars, and boats, but many boat owners don't know the process.

Please call your attorney friend. He well may be willing to simply pass on messages by phone. I have done this for clients in the past. Typically I would only charge a flat couple of hundred bucks. But just having an attorneys letter head can be worth a lot. And if they start making noise like they are tring to weasel out, or make a really one sided offer, he should pick up on it pretty quick. At this point you can retain him for actual legal work.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Go a few rounds with these guys:






You'll be fine.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

I would expect the insurance company to total the boat, I am not sure whether your "declared value" would apply, I assume so. The glass repair may only be $3-4000, however, any reasonable effort at hiding the repairs will require painting the decks and interior (which you should insist on...), which cost will exceed any likely declared value.

So their insurance company will pay you out, and most likely you will have the chance to buy the boat back for short money. You can have the repair done with a best efforts matching of the gelcoat and non-skid, and you may end up with a repaired boat, a few thousand in your pocket, but a greater loss in the value of the boat. Maybe time to move up...


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

What a terrible shame. I'm sorry you've had to endure this after such a recent jump into the liveaboard world. But, don't let it discourage you. Homes get hit by tornadoes, trees get knocked onto roofs, plumbing causes floods, etc, etc. Boats are not exempt from their own variety of mishaps. 

If you really want your boat put back the way you had it, you could consider suing the stinkpotter. Just because the insurance payment is capped, doesn't necessarily mean that the offender is off the hook for liability. Talk to them or talk to an attorney. Tell them you want a complete repair or the funds to purchase the same boat in the same condition, regardless of the insurance proceeds.

This is a liability matter, not storm damage.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

Minnewaska said:


> ...
> If you really want your boat put back the way you had it, you could consider suing the stinkpotter. Just because the insurance payment is capped, doesn't necessarily mean that the offender is off the hook for liability. Talk to them or talk to an attorney. ...


This is a dead end idea ... the legal costs of any such litigation would likely exceed the value of the boat, tough to get such a proposition to work out, since here in the USA you can't get the loser to pick up your legal costs...


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

sailingfool said:


> This is a dead end idea ... the legal costs of any such litigation would likely exceed the value of the boat, tough to get such a proposition to work out, since here in the USA you can't get the loser to pick up your legal costs...


Maybe so, but defending themselves might exceed the cost to finish the repairs as well. A single threatening legal letter is pretty cheap. Start with good faith, get a thorough estimate and present it to the offender.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

smackdaddy said:


> Go a few rounds with these guys:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Smack, I love your home videos!:laugher:laugher


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## cktalons (Jun 2, 2011)

I'd rather not sue. It's a mess I simply don't want to deal with. If the situation takes a turn for the worst, I'll explore the option, but for right now, the process is going well enough. Today I'm waiting on cost estimates to repair. Ideally I want the boat fixed, I'm not interested in having a different boat (there's not one on the market that tickles me, anyway). My dream boat is a Tashiba, and those are well out of my price range, even if the boat was totaled and I got some kind of settlement. I'm happy with my Islander and want her fixed.

I'll keep you all updated with what happens next. More waiting...


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

I'm just curiuos, How does this guy seem to feel and what is his story? When I crashed my power boat in to the dock it was due to mechanical failure. Was that the case or was he just zooming out of control through an anchorage. Is he seriously humbled or was he drinkng?


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## cktalons (Jun 2, 2011)

Capt.aaron,
Fantastic question. I'm anchored in Liberty Bay, WA, which is an enormous anchorage. My boat is a long ways from the traffic coming into and out of the marina. The accident happened on a Tuesday, not on a busy weekend. How this guy hit me, in all that space, when I was out in the boonies, is a real head-scratcher. You, me, the police officer, the insurance surveyor, and the boat yard Rep who came out this morning, as well as everyone I've talked to, would love to know how I got hit. Yep. A puzzler.

The boater had a couple of stories. He left a note in my cockpit saying he lost control of one of his engines while trying to anchor. When he came aboard to tape up the holes he put into my boat, he said it was a transmission problem. I have no idea. I cannot say if there was alcohol involved, nor do I know if the police officer performed any tests.

SmackDaddy, I'd kick those guys butts no problem. Though I think I look about the same when I'm sparring someone...


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## bandaidmd (Jul 28, 2011)

both of his storys could be describing the same thing, he seems repentant since hes helping with the temporary repairs.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

Sounds like he was drink'n. Too bad they did'nt get his blood alcohol. But hey, I love my boat, it was my grand pa's, I sailed on her as a tot and have lived on her off and on my whole life. She sunk on me when I was visiting my Mom for thanksgivivng 18 years ago, I suspected a local salvager of sabotage. The very next month I went home for christmas and she sunk again!!!!! this time the rudder had fallen out and the water came thru a poorly designed packing gland system, But I had spent all my money on the first sinking. I had to camp on a near by island and make a teepee out of my sails and live like that for a month looking out at my mast sticking out of the water untill I could afford to raise it. That's actually when I met my wife, so look how fortunate my misfortune was. My point is I think you are going to fix this in a timely fashion and I don't think it's totaled your boat. Good luck.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

Capt.aaron said:


> Sounds like he was drink'n. Too bad they did'nt get his blood alcohol. But hey, I love my boat, it was my grand pa's, I sailed on her as a tot and have lived on her off and on my whole life. She sunk on me when I was visiting my Mom for thanksgivivng 18 years ago, I suspected a local salvager of sabotage. The very next month I went home for christmas and she sunk again!!!!! this time the rudder had fallen out and the water came thru a poorly designed packing gland system, But I had spent all my money on the first sinking. I had to camp on a near by island and make a teepee out of my sails and live like that for a month looking out at my mast sticking out of the water untill I could afford to raise it. That's actually when I met my wife, so look how fortunate my misfortune was. My point is I think you are going to fix this in a timely fashion and I don't think it's totaled your boat. Good luck.


It is actually a good thing they did not, because some insurance policies are written as to deny any coverage if they had been drinking. So it could turn into a real battle and end up with nothing but a lien on a house. I have seen this a lot with car crashes. Insurance companies are always looking for a way to weasel out of a claim.


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## Jetexas (Apr 3, 2012)

My condolences, Courtney. You and Riley are welcome on my boat while Libby gets repaired -- unfortunately, it's in Texas.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Jetexas said:


> My condolences, Courtney. You and Riley are welcome on my boat while Libby gets repaired -- *fortunately, it's in Texas*.


Fixed it for you.

Dude! Show some swagger!


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

miatapaul said:


> It is actually a good thing they did not, because some insurance policies are written as to deny any coverage if they had been drinking. So it could turn into a real battle and end up with nothing but a lien on a house. I have seen this a lot with car crashes. Insurance companies are always looking for a way to weasel out of a claim.


I see, well good then, She's already having some luck turn her way.


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## wingNwing (Apr 28, 2008)

Jetexas said:


> My condolences, Courtney. You and Riley are welcome on my boat while Libby gets repaired -- unfortunately, it's in Texas.


I'd love to host Courtney and Riley too, because I like her style. But unfortunately, we're in Annapolis. On the hard.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

Seafever was hit BY a SAILBOAT 6 weeks after a 20 month refit

IT does NOT look like much BUT due to the fiberglass dust issues i had to remove EVERYTHING from the boat to do the repair and that is were the cost starts going UP


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## cktalons (Jun 2, 2011)

smackdaddy said:


> Fixed it for you.
> 
> Dude! Show some swagger!


Haha, thanks Jetexas for the offer, and thanks smackdaddy for selflessly offering swagger lessons. You just give and give.

wingNwing, aw, you're so sweet!


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## Marcel D (Apr 15, 2012)

Miss Libby ok you can stay aboard our boat in port Sidney you look like a nice girl.


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## Capt-T (Aug 14, 2011)

Courtney... I'm fairly certain if Jaden had been left on watch when you went ashore none of this would have happened!

All kidding aside... I've been following your blog since almost day one and this news hit me as if I had heard it from a family member. Best of luck to you in the recovery process. I'm glad to hear you aren't rushing to find an ambulance chaser just yet. Trust that the process will work in your favor from the other insurance company (no reason to involve yours), but don't be afraid to defend your rights with any means possible if things do start heading south.


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## wingNwing (Apr 28, 2008)

Capt-T said:


> Courtney... I'm fairly certain if Jaden had been left on watch when you went ashore none of this would have happened!


LOL - yes, THERE's the right solution!!!


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## zedboy (Jul 14, 2010)

Capt.aaron said:


> But I had spent all my money on the first sinking. I had to camp on a near by island and make a teepee out of my sails and live like that for a month looking out at my mast sticking out of the water untill I could afford to raise it. That's actually when I met my wife, so look how fortunate my misfortune was.


Aaron we need to turn your life into a blog, or a movie, or both (=a youtube tv show about anchors?)


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

I was once explainig all my mis-adventures to a new girlfriend who was contemplating sailing down to the Caribbean with me and she said " geez< I don't know if I want to go to sea with someone who has had all that bad luck and made all those mistakes" I replied " I don't know if I would want to go to sea with someone who hasn't!"


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## cktalons (Jun 2, 2011)

Capt-T said:


> Courtney... I'm fairly certain if Jaden had been left on watch when you went ashore none of this would have happened!
> 
> All kidding aside... I've been following your blog since almost day one and this news hit me as if I had heard it from a family member. Best of luck to you in the recovery process. I'm glad to hear you aren't rushing to find an ambulance chaser just yet. Trust that the process will work in your favor from the other insurance company (no reason to involve yours), but don't be afraid to defend your rights with any means possible if things do start heading south.


Capt-T, Yes, if only he'd been around to stop it! Now that we've brought him up, I'm not going to deny that I've thought about, if things do go south, highlighting certain passages in the book and sending the book along to the people involved in the process, thus letting them know what kind of imagination I have. Sections and scenes from chapter eleven comes to mind...But I've so far restrained myself.

When me and SV _Libby_ are in a misadventure, I try to think what book Libby, her namesake, would do in the situation. Usually the response is the same: be witty and make jokes. If life immitates art, then the SV _Libby_ will fully recover and return to her clever remark-making and brave ways, but only after a painful and arduous recuperation.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

There is a boat in the UK that was T boned at the start of the Round the Island race. The damage extended down to the waterline.

There is a thread running on the repairs with pics. It may be of interest to you.

CLICKY.


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## WildJasmine (Sep 10, 2011)

Hey, sorry to hear about your boat. Hopefully your dog was not on board when this happened? 

That is a big fear of mine, something happening while we are away and our dog and cat's safety is out of our hands.

Good luck with dealing with the insurance company, Boat US is normally pretty easy to work with. Hopefully the damage isn't too bad and you can get back to sailing soon.


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## cktalons (Jun 2, 2011)

WildJasmine said:


> Hey, sorry to hear about your boat. Hopefully your dog was not on board when this happened?
> 
> That is a big fear of mine, something happening while we are away and our dog and cat's safety is out of our hands.
> 
> Good luck with dealing with the insurance company, Boat US is normally pretty easy to work with. Hopefully the damage isn't too bad and you can get back to sailing soon.


Thanks WildJasmine. Riley and I were both ashore at the time of impact. He goes everywhere with me and has only been left on the boat a handful of times, when I'm anchored. Docked is another story.

I too am hopeful that the boat will be repaired. Right now it's a matter of numbers and whether the insurance company will pay to repair it or try to total it. It'll be close, I think.


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## fendertweed (Apr 4, 2003)

ronspiker said:


> If you have to move out because of repairs you might be able to get reimbursed for the cost of living someplace else while your home is being fixed.


not too likely, right? loss of use is only covered for commercially documented use IIRC but I with CK lots of luck, Catalyst was out of commission all of last year after our neighbor hit ... this looks fixable but still a royal PITA.


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## cktalons (Jun 2, 2011)

fendertweed said:


> not too likely, right? loss of use is only covered for commercially documented use IIRC but I with CK lots of luck, Catalyst was out of commission all of last year after our neighbor hit ... this looks fixable but still a royal PITA.


I seems logical, but sometimes insurance companies don't trade in logic. I'm still aboard my boat, the hole is patched up. Last night I cleared out as much of the fiberglass shards and wood splinters from the v-berth and slept there, which was nice to do. Before I'd drop the table in the salon and sleep there, but that had a way of shrinking my livable space in half, which didn't do my sanity well.

Fact is, it would be hard for me to stay in a hotel with a dog and living on the Paleolithic diet. I'd need my own kitchen. When and if the boat is repaired, that's another matter. I have some legal people looking into my options.

This is a disconcerting ordeal. I want it over. Now. Thanks for the continued support, guys.


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## Jetexas (Apr 3, 2012)

Extended Stay hotels have kitchens and allow dogs.

Even if they can do repairs in the water and work around you, the fumes are going to be too strong to stay on the boat until it all cures.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Glad to hear you're getting some legal advice and hope you can recover without having to get adversarial. I understand you prefer not to, but be sure to defend yourself. Good luck.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

SimonV said:


> Just went through this myself but here in Oz. First thing contact your insurance tell them what happened ASAP and inform them, you are going to claim on the other party's insurance (this covers you, should the other party's insurer tries to weasel out) If you don't have insurance (which is my guess), what ever you do do not tell their insurer this ( as I use an offshore company I would loose some of my no claim bonus so it was not a fib in my case, but the other party insurer did query why I was not using my insurer) Get 2 independent quotes from the best ship rites in your area and a quote from 2 nice motels ( mine offered a flat nightly rate for accommodation). I did not get a survey as I trusted the ship rite and my own observation and experience. Good luck.
> This was what I had to contend with S.V. GOODONYA: WHAT A DAY!


Simon, I've only just seen this. Good heavens and thanks be that you are both OK. W saw your post yesterday and told me about it. I think I'm in as much shock as you were back then. What is your situation now ?

Regards

Andrew

ps - just finished reading the blog ... all is good and you seem to be getting by .... cheers to you both. ab.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Holy crap Simon!!! That was some nasty shrapnel! What blew?


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## BentSailor (Nov 10, 2010)

*@cktalons:* I sympathise with your plight. It's never a good thing having to wait on beauracrats to decide the future of your home. Been following the details of your predicament over on CA. Any news yet on the costs to fix?

*@SimonV:*
And here I thought sailing was about as far as I could get away from explosions and shrapnel damage! What caused it?


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## SimonV (Jul 6, 2006)

BentSailor said:


> *@cktalons:* I sympathise with your plight. It's never a good thing having to wait on beauracrats to decide the future of your home. Been following the details of your predicament over on CA. Any news yet on the costs to fix?
> 
> *@SimonV:*
> And here I thought sailing was about as far as I could get away from explosions and shrapnel damage! What caused it?


The boat sank and after sitting on the hard for 18 months was bought from the insurance company then on sold to the new owner who stripped it out and spent close to 50K on refitting. It had just been re launched to finish the fit out, But no one had got around to checking the hot water services. So a frozen safety valve caused a steam explosion.


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## BentSailor (Nov 10, 2010)

Note to self - check the safety valve BEFORE turning on the hot water system for the first time.

Thanks for the details, Simon. I can almost feel the physical pain the owner must have had hearing of the explosion that peppered the side of your vessel.


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## cktalons (Jun 2, 2011)

BentSailor said:


> *@cktalons:* I sympathise with your plight. It's never a good thing having to wait on beauracrats to decide the future of your home. Been following the details of your predicament over on CA. Any news yet on the costs to fix?


BentSailor:
Thanks. I'm cagey about releasing too much info at this stage, because nothing has been finalized. My prediction is that the insurance company, BoatUS, will try to total the boat, as the cost to repair is, for lack of a better word A LOT. I have a copy of the estimate, and to repair the boat will cost (depending upon how much cosmetic work I'm willing to personally put into her) between $17k-20k. It's likely that the insurance company will try to put the value of my boat lower than the cost to repair it.

This boat is a live-aboard: my home, not a daysailer sitting in a marina. All of this is more complicated, stressful, frustrating, maddening, and saddening because this boat is my home. Repairing it would take two weeks of being on the hard. Not repairing it means I have a hole where I live while I look for another boat to live in, which is more than just numbers and boat haves and have-nots, but the emotional aspect as well.

That's the update. The great people of both Sailnet and Sailing Anarchy have been so helpful and encouraging. I love the sailing community. Thanks for the continued advice, support, and thoughts & prayers. Everything helps.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

ck-
"It's likely that the insurance company will try to put the value of my boat lower than the cost to repair it."
Which is why it is VITAL that you speak to the state insurance commission, and find out how the law requires/allows the insurer to come up with that value. Get this in writing, find out the code they cite. Sometimes it can take two or three days of phone tag to get those folks so it may pay to make a visit.
The thing is, insurers KNOW that you don't know the law, and they will often grab a "value" by saying "Well, there was one sold last year in Maryland for..." ignoring the fact that the listing didn't disclose a dead engine and rotted out decks.
Values are for comparables, and comparable often aren't available, at which point the laws also usually dictate what shall be done. I have seen an insurer literally QUADRUPLE their valuation after they were reminded of the laws. The supervisor I wound up dealing with said the adjuster I had spoken to was a nice young girl and what did I do, I left her in tears. I said she's lucky I didn't have her calls recorded, she'd have been arrested for extortion. And she would have been.

As they say in the MBA-infested canyons of Manhattan, "Don't piss on my head and tell me it's raining." These people are not your friends, they are _adversaries _in a zero-sum game.

Again, you really want to have a chat with your insurance commission. And/or your friend the attorney.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

CK, do both you and the "at fault" owner both have BoatUS? You are in negotiation with the other owner's insurance agency. If it isn't to your satisfaction, have your lawyer serve papers and pursue a legal remedy. I am sure that the other guy has at least $100k liability insurance and if not, go after his personal assets. Something you might want to consider is reviewing your own insurance policy and “up” the agreed value on your boat. That way, if you encounter $15-20K of damage in the future, you will be covered (after-all, it only takes one bad grounding on rocks to rack up a big repair bill).


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

Courtney I'm curious, with you being a live-aboard has the insurance company made any provision for where you're going to live while the boat is in the yard being repaired?

Best of luck,
Jim


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## cktalons (Jun 2, 2011)

My attorney is working on it. I'm not okay with a boater ramming my home.

Jim, no, so far the insurance company has not tried making me more comfortable. They don't seem to care that I lived aboard. Hence the attorney's involvement.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Stay steady and, as I said earlier, what the insurance company may be obligated to pay under whatever coverage they agreed to provide, does not necessarily limit what the party that caused the damage is legally liable for. If they only had 5 cents in coverage, that doesn't mean paying it all to you is good enough. Get your house back.

Glad you're getting professional advice in your state.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

cktalons said:


> ...Jim, no, so far the insurance company has not tried making me more comfortable. They don't seem to care that I lived aboard. Hence the attorney's involvement.


I've dealt with BoatUS a number of times over the years and they always struck me as very agreeable and professional, in meeting their contract obligations.

Does your BoatUS policy have the explicit Declared Value figure, which defines the maximum payment for repairs/loss, and wording that excludes "loss of use" from covered damages? If so, to BoatUS this is a straight forward claim. If the repair estimates exceed the Declared Value they will quickly pay you the Declared Value and then own the boat. .

Now the situation stinks, I've been there myself, but it not the fault of BoatUS. You need to go after the other party for your uninsured loses.


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## afrinus (Feb 27, 2011)

> As they say in the MBA-infested canyons of Manhattan, "Don't piss on my head and tell me it's raining." These people are not your friends, they are adversaries in a zero-sum game.


Hey Hellosailor, don't hold back, tell us how you really feel about insurance people.....

CK, Sorry to hear about your situation - hope this gets resolved to your satisfaction.


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## wingNwing (Apr 28, 2008)

Don't know if this boat Jeff H found - in Seattle - helps or hurts your dealings with the insurance folks: he calls it the outrageously good deal of the year http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gener...376-outrageously-good-deal-day-week-year.html


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## sea_hunter (Jul 26, 2000)

cktalons:903615 said:


> My attorney is working on it. I'm not okay with a boater ramming my home.
> 
> Jim, no, so far the insurance company has not tried making me more comfortable. They don't seem to care that I lived aboard. Hence the attorney's involvement.


Again the insurance company(s) needs some education. If your boat is your "principal residence" then it qualifies for restitution. Even FEMA recognizes this fact as it's federal law. Your lawyer can help you out in this area if they are indeed a specialized maritime attorney. While I haven't read every thread here, was an accident report filed with the USCG if the damage is over $25k?


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

sea_hunter said:


> Again the insurance company(s) needs some education. If your boat is your "principal residence" then it qualifies for restitution. Even FEMA recognizes this fact as it's federal law. Your lawyer can help you out in this area if they are indeed a specialized maritime attorney. ..


I disagree with your perspective about this insurance company.

An insurance policy covers only what it specifies that it covers, not whatever someone who has had some bad luck wishes it to cover after the fact.

I know from unfortunate personal experience that BoatUS policies specify that they exclude "loss of use" from covered damages, and I expect that exclusion applies regardless of how you use the boat. If a customer wants more coverage, I guess they could request a rider to include "loss of use" as a covered damage, and pay whatever additional premium may be needed for such coverage, but that hasn't been hinted at in this thread.

This is a sad and unfair situation, but no one has yet put any evidence into the thread that BoatUS hasn't been standing up to their obligations.


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## KarlP (Jul 19, 2012)

sailingfool said:


> You are completely out to sea with your perspective.
> 
> An insurance policy covers only what it specifies that it covers, not whatever someone who has had some bad luck wishes it to cover after the fact.
> 
> I know from unfortunate personal experience that BoatUS policies exclude "loss of use" from covered damages, and I expect that exclusion applies regardless of how you use the boat. If a customer wants more coverage, I guess they could request a rider to include "loss of use" as a covered damage, but that hasn't been hinted at in this thread.


What you say may be true if this were a comprehensive claim against a BoatUS policy she had because she had hit something. It is completely wrong in the case of a liability claim against a BoatUS insured.

Loss of use is certainly a liability. She can't be expected to be homeless while repairs are made. The BoatUS policy of the guy that hit her should cover alternative living arrange ments such as a long term stay hotel while repairs are being made.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

KarlP said:


> What you say may be true if this were a comprehensive claim against a BoatUS policy she had because she had hit something. It is completely wrong in the case of a liability claim against a BoatUS insured. .


The issue really comes down to what the BoatUS policy says about "loss of use" in this circumstance, and the thread has not addressed this specific fact.


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## KarlP (Jul 19, 2012)

sailingfool said:


> The issue really comes down to what the BoatUS policy says about "loss of use" in this circumstance, and the thread has not addressed this specific fact.


What I was trying to say is it does not matter what her policy says about "loss of use" coverage, it matters what person who hit her has for "liability" coverage. This insurance event is not a loss of use issue for her. It is a liability issue for the other guy.

If someone with liability insurance hits your parked car and it needs to be repaired their insurance is responsible to provide you with a rental car while yours is in the shop. It doesn't matter if you or the person who hit you have rental car coverage. It is a liability issue.


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## mdbee (May 2, 2007)

Although laws verify state to state, as someone that sold insurance for 30 years, I agree. The liability and comprehensive rules are different.

For example, you may not have personal medical coverage on your auto policy but if another driver is at fault and runs into you, their liability coverage will pay for your medical costs, up to the limits of the policy.


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## jimjazzdad (Jul 15, 2008)

Its important for CK to exercise her right of subrogation here - even if her own insurance might declare 'constructive total loss' that doesn't mean she can't go after the other party's liability insurance. It is important to distinguish that it is his insurance that should pay to fix it to her satisfaction, not her own insurance policy, whatever the insured value of her boat may be. If her boat is her legal home, the liability should include loss of use of her home. Hopefully CK's lawyer friend will get this sorted with the insurance company quickly.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

What seems to continue to be confused is the insurance company's obligation under the contracts they signed with their clients and the actual liability of the offender under the law. They are often very different.


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## jimjazzdad (Jul 15, 2008)

Minnewaska said:


> What seems to continue to be confused is the insurance company's obligation under the contracts they signed with their clients and the actual liability of the offender under the law. They are often very different.


So you think it likely that the boat owner who hit CK was carrying less than $100K liability coverage? His insurance company's obligation is to protect him up to the policy's liability limit. Admittedly it might take a lawyer to prise the money out of the insurance company, but she should be able to get her boat repaired...(I hope!)


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## sea_hunter (Jul 26, 2000)

Hmmm, backseat lawyers. Nothing but the best information from sailnet. You'll also need to give your own lawyer a kick in the a$$ to get things going. Just like insurance companies, you need to shop for legal advice. Once again, I reiterate; do not shop the discount aisle.

PPS, This includes my opinion as well.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Didn't say that. I'm saying you establish the liability first, then look to how to collect it. If insurance coverage is sufficient, that's great. If not, that doesn't absolve them.


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

I think one thing that is being missed here is that the operator of the other boat (presuming he is to be held 100% at fault, which appears to be the case) is liable for all CK's losses. If the other boat owner's insurance company manages to weasel out of paying up, he is still liable. For instance (and completely hypothetically), let's say that there was a clause in Mr. Powerboater's insurance policy that basically said that he wasn't covered if he operated his boat drunk or at night, and he hit CK's boat at 2am after downing a dozen shots. His insurance Co. might be off the hook, but he certainly isn't. I which case CK may have to sue his butt to get her boat fixed. But then Mr. Powerboater's homeowner's insurance will probably get involved (since that is the asset most likely to be in jeopardy if/when he loses).

More realistically, let's say that Mr. Powerboater's insurance refuses to pay more than $5K for the damages on CK's boat, since they claim that is all it is worth. If CK can prove that her boat is worth more, say $20K, Mr. Powerboater is on the hook for $20K, AS LONG AS CK DOESN'T ACCEPT THE INSURANCE COMPANY'S SETTLEMENT OFFER. Yes, she may ultimately have to take Mr. Powerboater to court over all this if he and his insurance company (or companies, since Mr. Powerboater's homeowner's insurance might come into play here) dig in their heels, but they probably won't over such a relatively small amount.

Bottom line is that if CK sticks to her guns and doesn't settle for less than ALL it takes to "make her financially whole" (i.e., cover all her losses due to Mr. Powerboater's negligence) she will probably eventually be fine. The payout here for the insurance company is far too small for them to spend much of their time and resources fighting a losing battle. Mr. Powerboater and his insurance don't really have much of a defense, as far as I can see. And in this case lawyers' fees (theirs AND hers, as they will have to pay all the lawyers if they lose) could easily top any reasonable payout in no time at all. If they think CK isn't going to cave easily, then they will take the cheaper way out and cave themselves.


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## dacap06 (Feb 2, 2008)

sailingfool said:


> The issue really comes down to what the BoatUS policy says about "loss of use" in this circumstance, and the thread has not addressed this specific fact.


Hmmm. I should think it comes down to the liability of the offending party, who has already admitted fault. He is obligated to provide whatever admiralty law requires. Whether his insurance covers a given expense or not is said party's issue, not Courney's.


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## cktalons (Jun 2, 2011)

I'm glad my situation has caused so much awareness and education about the boating insurance industry. I'm under-impressed with BoatUS.

For those keeping score, I started this thread over a week ago, the same day of the boat ramming. BoatUS has yet to contact me regards their plans for my boat. The only communication I've had with them was a few days after the accident, and all correspondence was initiated by me.

Over one week later, my boat still has a hole, extensive deck damage, and a shifted bulkhead. My home was wrecked. I was clearly not at fault. And yet, over one week later, my home still has a hole in it and no word from the guilty party's insurance company. I'm not sure if the boat will be totaled or repaired. Today is Friday, so I won't hear from BoatUS until next week, making it a full two weeks since the accident.

I will do what is necessary to be compensated for this loss. Not only was my home rammed, but my office (I work from my boat!). I've lost productivity, I've lost sleep, I've lost the middle of sailing season. Oh yes, I'm upset. Because, as the first post states, I DIDN'T DO ANYTHING WRONG! Unfair? YES. Unjust? Absolutely! My home was rammed, and yet I'm the one, the innocent party, paying for it in time, stress, and legal fees? Hmmm....

My attorney is on top of this now. Rest assured, I'm *not* backing down. The longer this continues, the more irritated I become. I will not rollover.


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

I assume you have Mr. Powerboater's insurance carrier and Policy # by now. 
I'm not surprised that Boat US (your insurance carrier) has not gotten back to you yet, unless Mr. Powerboater also used Boat US for his insurance. For the record, it would be easier for us to understand if we knew which insurance company he used.
It will take them time to substantiate an estimate for repairs (hire a surveyor, contact boat yards etc.) and this is their busy season as other policy holders have sunk their boats at the dock or driven them up on the rocks. 
The best advice I can give is to try to remain philosophical and calm about all of this as it will take more time then you might think for this all to get sorted out (every repair with boats takes 3 times longer and costs twice as much as expected). 
If you are feeling impatient then call Mr. Powerboater's marine insurance company and make sure that a claim has been opened against his policy for the damage he did to your boat. Then find out what has (or has not) been done. You may be able to help them by finding a marine surveyor to assess the damage and help move things along, or they may give you the name of the surveyor they want to use. A good survey of the damage is the first step.
The next step would be to find the best yard or company that can do the repairs to your satisfaction. It is a lot like auto insurance once it reaches this point; they'll pay $18K for repairs but you want to use auto shop X who you trust to do good work but will charge $20K. That is where your lawyer friend may come in handy.

I guess I am saying that it is fine to make loud noises about how you were wronged (and you were) but the more even tempered and helpful you can be may help move things along just a little bit faster. After all, the people that work for the insurance company were not the ones who damaged your boat. Their client did and they should respond to that but they personally never did you any harm. Old adage: You'll catch more flies with honey.

Having done a lesser repair to my own boat it seems to me that you are looking at at least 1 month of being hauled out on jack stands. Knowing what I think I do about the flakiness of marine 'professionals' and how busy they are with other clients jobs you would be really lucky to find someone who could spend an entire week devoted to your damaged deck house. You might consider finding a place to stay on land by the week or even for a full month (or more - hope not!). Hopefully my perceptions are a bit out of whack but the marine repair business is not exactly as well run as the auto repair business.

I hope I am wrong about this. I am just suggesting that it might not all get 'made whole' in a week or two.

More reasons to be pi$$ed off and lose sleep, I know. Sorry about that.

When our boat had a hole in the hull/deck joint on the port bow, jib in tatters, bow pulpit crushed ... due in part to our own negligence, I did the fiberglass repairs myself as I could not find anyone available who could commit to doing it quickly. I sub-contracted a new roller furler and we bought a new bow pulpit and installed it ourselves. It took about 1 month to do it all.

I really do wish you the best of luck with this 'process'.


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## dacap06 (Feb 2, 2008)

Courtney,

I am very glad to hear you have an attorney who is on top of the situation. The key to a satisfactory outcome is to be proactive. Especially, be proactive with BoatUS -- the squeaky wheel gets the grease. Civil, but firm is the right approach, IMO.

My heart broke when I read your first post. We love the same boat model. There but for the grace of God go we all. DaWIFE and I wish you the best as you work to resolve your conundrum.

Tom


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

CK, 
Have you considered grinding it down and doing the glass work yourself and sending him the bill? I've done work simular to that on the hook with a little honda generator and a grinder, Curtain off the v berth with some plasic, get a little shop vac and a fan. The glass work is a lot like the paper machet' (sp?) we did in grade school. I've seen lesser people tackle bigger projects. Use west system products for easier mixing, less fumes and better bonding. You can probably borrow most of the tool's from sympathetic sailors. Document the work and save the recipts. Some times to get a ball rolling we have to pick it up and throw it.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"I DIDN'T DO ANYTHING WRONG! "
CK, I'm thinking of suing my school system, because they failed to mention "The world is not a fair place" back when I was in grade school. Runs contrary to the whole Superman-Metropolis-mom and apple pie thing, but there it is.

You DID contact your state insurance commission, right? Because they should have told you that the other guy's insurer typically has 30 days in which to respond to your formal claim, and if they fail to respond within that time period--they lose the right to appeal or contest the damage amount.

That will vary with state law but 30 days is typical. And you have to prove when they were first contacted. Many insurers will play the game of waiting 29 days and then sending out a letter, stalling as long as they can to avoid a payout.

And sometimes that can be a good thing for you, because IF you know the local laws, sometimes the insurer slips up on the timing and simply has to pay you without question as a result. 

Your attorney will be familiar with all this, but it helps if someone clues you in to how the game is played. If you've gotten repair estimates, he should also be able to make a good guess as to questions of repairing or totalling, and who gets to make that decision how.

Capt-
"doing the glass work yourself" that can be a very bad idea when dealing with insurers. They typically pay only for "professional" repairs and parts. So if a shop puts in 30 hours of labor and bills for it, they pay. But if you put in the same 30 hours? You get nothing. If they're paying estimated costs, based on someone's estimate, that's something else again. But the devil is indeed in the details, and there's a reason great whites won't touch insurers.


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## cktalons (Jun 2, 2011)

hellosailor said:


> "I DIDN'T DO ANYTHING WRONG! "
> CK, I'm thinking of suing my school system, because they failed to mention "The world is not a fair place" back when I was in grade school. Runs contrary to the whole Superman-Metropolis-mom and apple pie thing, but there it is.


What?????? You mean the world isn't fair?!

This is a frustrating problem, folks, and it's not getting better. I'm doing my absolute best to approach this problem as level-headed and as logical as possible. I'm going through the motions, taking it step by step, not over-reacting. I love and appreciate all the great legal and insurance advice that this forum has given, and I am grateful for the support from my fellow sailors and liveaboards. *Truly*. However, I'm not soliciting lessons on life's unfairness, or how to keep it all in perspective (I am keeping it in perspective). I know many of you are trying to make me feel better, and I understand that. Is having a hole in my home the worst possible thing to ever happen to me in the history of the world? Of course not, it isn't close. But it's a problem that needs solving nonetheless, and so far the people responsible for the incident, and thus the ones responsible for solving the problem, have been...well not very timely (I'm being decent in my word choice when describing these people). And that's frustrating. It's maddening. I'm not sure anyone would react differently than what I'm doing now. I guess I'm writing as I live: honestly. If that bothers you, I'm sorry. Be glad that you're not my mother, imagine all the cheerleading she has to do! Right now the only way this situation gets better is if it's fixed. It's hard to take my mind off having a hole in my home. I'm feeling frustrated, I'm feeling upset, displaced, out of sorts, because my home and haven has been damaged. Believe me, I'd much rather be cheery and upbeat, making jokes.

It's been nearly two weeks since the incident, it'll take at least two weeks to have the boat fixed. Living in the Pacific Northwest means my weather window is quite limited. Meanwhile, summer is disappearing and a wet and cold winter is coming closer. I'm on a clock.

At this rate it looks like I won't hear back from BoatUS, the ramming party's insurance company, until next week. I'll post again when I know more.

Peace out,
Courtney


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Think of this as an opportunity:
If a BOAT-US adjuster comes out to look at the boat, you can quarter them, skin them and tan them, and sell a great article on the pros and cons of different tanning methods to make ersatz-isinglass to cover the new porthole in your boat.
And of course, thank BOAT-US for sending out the prime materials.

You know, the publishers don't get many submissions for tanning articles these days, there's a huge market there.


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## cktalons (Jun 2, 2011)

hellosailor said:


> Think of this as an opportunity:
> You know, the publishers don't get many submissions for tanning articles these days, there's a huge market there.


"It puts the lotion on its skin..."


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Have you been in contact with the rammer? Are they willing to help get the insurance company moving? I owned a rental property once that had a water heater rupture and flooded the unit below. Blew the ceiling out. I felt terrible and rode the insurance company hard to assess it and get it fixed ASAP.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"It was a dark and stormy night, so dark that I only used SPF 6."


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## MikeinLA (Jul 25, 2006)

Minnewaska said:


> Have you been in contact with the rammer?


And showed him your underwater hole saw? :hothead


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## Marcel D (Apr 15, 2012)

So is your boat gettimg fixed? Me and my family will be out shortly no food cost come crusing?????


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## meljabro3 (Aug 6, 2012)

That is so scary and a huge fear of mine, glad you were ashore! and good luck!


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## cktalons (Jun 2, 2011)

Today BoatUS got in touch with my attorney, so we’re now in contact. I’ll update with specifics as negotiations progress.


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## wingNwing (Apr 28, 2008)

Glad to read that some progress is being made.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

Minnewaska said:


> Have you been in contact with the rammer? Are they willing to help get the insurance company moving? I owned a rental property once that had a water heater rupture and flooded the unit below. Blew the ceiling out. I felt terrible and rode the insurance company hard to assess it and get it fixed ASAP.


I actually had an issue with a car accident where a guy would not call the insurance company back. He was clearly at fault, but they would not pay up till they heard his side. He lived at home with his mother and was dodging both my calls and from the insurance companies calls. I finally spoke to his mother and explained that we would have to put out a summons for his appearance in court if he did not return the calls. I heard from his insurance company the next day. :laugher I think I scared his mother.


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## Skipper Jer (Aug 26, 2008)

Ck maybe silence is golden till this is settled.


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## ParadiseParrot (Oct 6, 2010)

Now all you have to do is watch your Lawyer....CLOSELY.


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## cktalons (Jun 2, 2011)

ParadiseParrot said:


> Now all you have to do is watch your Lawyer....CLOSELY.


He's a good friend, so I'm not worried.


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## carl762 (Jan 11, 2010)

That's very good news. They and insurance companies really need watching. Wish you the best in your recovery.


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## fendertweed (Apr 4, 2003)

CalebD said:


> I assume you have Mr. Powerboater's insurance carrier and Policy # by now.
> I'm not surprised that Boat US (your insurance carrier) has not gotten back to you yet, unless Mr. Powerboater also used Boat US for his insurance. For the record, it would be easier for us to understand if we knew which insurance company he used.
> It will take them time to substantiate an estimate for repairs (hire a surveyor, contact boat yards etc.) and this is their busy season as other policy holders have sunk their boats at the dock or driven them up on the rocks.
> The best advice I can give is to try to remain philosophical and calm about all of this as it will take more time then you might think for this all to get sorted out (every repair with boats takes 3 times longer and costs twice as much as expected).
> ...


I second the advice and good thoughts. I lost the entire 2011 sailing season when my neighbor across the fairway passed out from heat stroke on Mem. Day and rammed his SeaRay 34 into Catalyst while she was minding her own business in our slip.

It took me 'til November to get a new pulpit ordered, new furler done by the rigger (we're not in a sailboat-friendly place for service), and then the deck repairs, etc.

In my case BoatUS (my insurer, not the at-fault guy's) was terrific, they were fast and easy to work with and they ended up paying me very fairly (initial estimate turned out to be at least $1,500 low when all damage was found & assessed), so i was lucky I got it repaired and not totaled.

I hope it all comes through for you, too.


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## cktalons (Jun 2, 2011)

*Update: options open*

Hi everyone,
The settlement is over. I'm now in the process of "moving on" and making decisions. Before me are a couple of choices: repair boat or buy new one. Repairing my new boat is costly and a logistical nightmare. So I'm now looking at boats in the PNW for sale, and putting out a request to boats that are not on the market. To read more about my process, what I want and need and what I don't want, please refer to my post: Liveaboard seeks new sailboat? | Courtney Kirchoff

You guys rock. I thank you all for helping me through this disaster.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Sorry to hear, courtney.
But new boat shopping can be a lot of fun. Good luck in the search for _Libby, too._
I just read your blog post, and the only thing missing that might help in the search is a ballpark budget. There is no point wasting your time pointing you toward $40-50K boats if you have a $20K budget, or vice versa.


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## oneshotonekill (Mar 9, 2012)

I also wish you well, Courtney. Boat shopping can be fun, but the stress must really be there when the decision is also your home. Please consider keeping this thread alive with as much detail as possible. This has been very educational for me, and I'll bet it has been for many others as well.


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## cktalons (Jun 2, 2011)

bljones said:


> Sorry to hear, courtney.
> But new boat shopping can be a lot of fun. Good luck in the search for _Libby, too._
> I just read your blog post, and the only thing missing that might help in the search is a ballpark budget. There is no point wasting your time pointing you toward $40-50K boats if you have a $20K budget, or vice versa.


Ah, I'm keeping that close to the chest. The market is soft, but brokers are brokers.


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

Courtney,
Congrats on getting through the insurance settlement phase. That is a big step in the right direction.
As someone who could not bear the idea of the insurance company owning my damaged boat which would most likely end up in a dumpster I decided to buy her back for cheap ($800 - $1000 off my settlement check). 
The damage to my boat was mostly a hole in the hull deck joint (3" x 12" approx), roller furler, bow pulpit and jib trashed. Beyond that were some sections of damaged teak toe/cap rail. 
I had some experience with West System epoxy so I had a rudimentary idea of how that worked. I had never done a more 'complicated' repair that needed a proper camber to match the hull. I could not find ANY fiberglass 'specialists' who would give me the time of day at their mostly $80/hour rates (figured into my repair estimate for Boat US).
I read some books and other websites that detail repair techniques using fiberglass (epoxy + glass): Fiberglass Boat Repair and Restoration
I ended up building a mold for the outside of the hull using a very thin plywood that would bend to match the hull shape (this idea came from a book from the UK). For your repairs you might need molds for both the inside (cabin) and outside. I'm still surprised at how well my repair job has held up and is nearly undetectable. Lots of sanding, dust and nasty thinners are involved with the process, but the better I got at it, the cleaner I could work with less clean up and sanding.
I guess what I am saying is that while I have only seen pictures of the damages to S/V Libby I don't think that those damages are much worse then I was able to fix, myself. I had money left over for other goodies for my beloved boat. 
I'm not sure how you came up with your estimates for repair or who you used (if you found people willing to offer an estimate). I still think you should contact Baggett & Sons: Baggett and Sons Marine Restoration
They likely charge a lower rate then most commercial enterprises (read rip-offs) but they might also offer you suggestions on how you might be able to repair your beloved boat for much less then the estimates would have you believe. 
If you are sold on the idea of a bigger boat with all of the bells and whistles you are used to then please ignore the above. Just remember that ALL boats need a lot of this or that and the nice thing about the devil you know is that you DO know S/V Libby's positive and negative aspects whereas you will have to start all over with a new to you boat.
My $.02.


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## dacap06 (Feb 2, 2008)

I'll second the recommendation for Baggett and Sons Marine Restoration if you are willing to work with someone as far north as Bellingham, WA. He posts as Charlie Cobra here on Sailnet. He's good folks and does absolutely top notch work. If you want to investigate, you need look no farther than his threads here as he documents some of his boat projects. The restoration of the wood boats *Oh Joy* and *Lady J* are some of my favorite Sailnet posts. Look for them through Google, restricting the search to the sailnet.com site.

Charlie does FRP too, and recently brought a Fischer 46 into the shop for repair. It has been a month. I wonder when he's going to post an update on it? But I digress.

Good luck with your decision. We're all rooting for you!

Tom


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

cktalons said:


> Ah, I'm keeping that close to the chest. The market is soft, but brokers are brokers.


I understand, but a general ballpark, give or take 5k will help those of us trying to help narrow down the search and save you some time and frustration.


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## cktalons (Jun 2, 2011)

CalebD said:


> Courtney,
> As someone who could not bear the idea of the insurance company owning my damaged boat which would most likely end up in a dumpster I decided to buy her back for cheap ($800 - $1000 off my settlement check).
> The damage to my boat was mostly a hole in the hull deck joint (3" x 12" approx), roller furler, bow pulpit and jib trashed. Beyond that were some sections of damaged teak toe/cap rail.
> 
> ...


Part of my settlement deal was me getting a check and keeping the boat. I didn't have to buy her back, she's mine to do with as I see fit. That's nice. Regards the damage, it's much more than a hole in the cabin. There's extensive deck de-lamination, damaged hardware ($1200 in parts alone), a bulkhead was shifted and needs to be rebuilt, bowsprit bent, interior damage, and on and on. The damage to the boat is a lot, more than a patch job. I had CSR work up the estimate for me, and I have heard of Charlie Cobra doing good work. There's more to it than just having it repaired, there's the logistics of where will I stay? I live aboard. It's summer, hotels are expensive. It's just a pain in the @ss to spend thousands to repair a boat, lose so much time, and still have a boat that needs my upgrades. Mathematics are not in Libby's favor right now.



bljones said:


> I understand, but a general ballpark, give or take 5k will help those of us trying to help narrow down the search and save you some time and frustration.


I'll try to think of a creative way to demonstrate my budget. I'd say boats in my price range were made in the 70s and early 80s, 30-36 feet, sloops, nothing too fancy. Pacific Seacrafts, Cape Dorys, Ta Shings, while great boats, way too much mulah. It's tough, because right now with this market, if a seller is motivated, the deals are spectacular. But then, i've seen a couple of Islanders, in worse shape than mine (pre-damage) asking a whopping lot. Tough to say.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

Well great news that they have settled. 

But commiserations on the hassle to come.


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## Skipper Jer (Aug 26, 2008)

CK, you might want to add this site to your search, 
Boats for Sale, Yachts for Sale, Repo Boats, Luxury Yacht Auctions, Used Boats

They list a Beneteau 343 in Oregon.

And I think this one is in your backyard:
http://www.48north.com/

Good luck.


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## ParadiseParrot (Oct 6, 2010)

Just remember that asking price is not selling price. If the boat fits your needs then go look at it. If you like it then put in a bid.

Quick anecdote.

I moved to Florida in 95.

No job etc etc.

I looked at houses I could buy cash.
I found one that for reasons of New Jersey estate law could not be closed in less that 60 to 90 days. At the time 30 days to close where what most people had to have per there finance company. I put in a bid for 65% of asking price....Broker flipped out of course but by law they must submit. I closed for 68% of asking by being a hard butt. They had to sell because estate was open. It was on the market for 9 months.

You have NO IDEA why the owner is selling but assume they need the money fast.
Bid what u can afford. All they can say is no.


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## cktalons (Jun 2, 2011)

ParadiseParrot said:


> Just remember that asking price is not selling price. If the boat fits your needs then go look at it. If you like it then put in a bid.
> 
> You have NO IDEA why the owner is selling but assume they need the money fast.
> Bid what u can afford. All they can say is no.


Yep, I know allll about this. It's how I "stole" my last boat. Not to worry, I won't be taken or intimidated by brokers. It's also why I'm shy about declaring my budget. Asking price and selling price are completely different.


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## cktalons (Jun 2, 2011)

Captainmeme said:


> CK, you might want to add this site to your search,
> Boats for Sale, Yachts for Sale, Repo Boats, Luxury Yacht Auctions, Used Boats
> 
> They list a Beneteau 343 in Oregon.
> ...


I have a copy of 48 north on my table. Dog-eared. I've got bookmarks to possible boats on YW, Sailboat listings, Craig's List. What I'm really looking for are boats that are not listed on line, boats that people are considering selling but haven't listed yet. I'm trying to float a balloon and see what else is out there.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

cktalons said:


> I'll try to think of a creative way to demonstrate my budget. I'd say boats in my price range were made in the 70s and early 80s, 30-36 feet, sloops, nothing too fancy. Pacific Seacrafts, Cape Dorys, Ta Shings, while great boats, way too much mulah. It's tough, because right now with this market, if a seller is motivated, the deals are spectacular. But then, i've seen a couple of Islanders, in worse shape than mine (pre-damage) asking a whopping lot. Tough to say.


Well done! What a great way to give a budget without revealing your wallet.


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## dacap06 (Feb 2, 2008)

cktalons said:


> What I'm really looking for are boats that are not listed on line, boats that people are considering selling but haven't listed yet. I'm trying to float a balloon and see what else is out there.


Then what you should do is walk the storage areas of local marinas. Talk with the staff there about boats that interest you on the hard -- ones that have been there a while, look neglected, but aren't trash yet. The staff might be able to give you some insight on who would be open to an offer.

Good luck!

Regards

Tom


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## Hawaiigirl (Jan 3, 2012)

ah man! I hope everything goes well...don't you just hate it?


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## Agri (Dec 5, 2011)

cktalons said:


> Yep, I know allll about this. It's how I "stole" my last boat. Not to worry, I won't be taken or intimidated by brokers. It's also why I'm shy about declaring my budget. Asking price and selling price are completely different.


Just finished reading through all your boat related blog posts, great stuff. Saw the picture of the ad with Libby in it and the final list price. It sounds like your budget is slightly higher then that now. I don't know of any unlisted sailboats at the moment but there are several in the Vancouver/ Van Island area that seem to be in what I assume is your price range. If your interested try searching on the Vancouver/Victoria Kijiji websites as well as UsedVictoria.com, or send me a pm and I can point you towards a few. In the interests of full disclosure you might end up bidding against me, but I'd hate to see one of the few single handing female liveaboards that I know of, disappear.

Sent from my GT-P6210 using Tapatalk 2


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