# In praise of production boats!



## Yorksailor (Oct 11, 2009)

Over that last 30 years I have sailed many different boats and I think the best 'bang for the buck' are the Beneteaus...They sail well, reasonable construction and reasonable boat storage. 

I have sailed 10+Beneteaus and I sailed one in 40 knots and 15 ft seas without any concern for the safety of the boat and crew.

In 2015 we crossed the Pacific, Panama to New Zealand in a Tayana, and had personal contact with over 200 cruising boats. While several boats had serious problems the 'custom boats' had as many problems as the production boats. 

I am not a great fan of Hunter's but I know several Hunter owners in the Caribbean and they are excellent live-aboards.

As Mark has demonstrated if you 'sail smart' respecting the boat and conditions a Beneteau is no less capable of handling ocean crossings than a Tayana or other recognized blue water cruisers. One friend is on his second circumnavigation on his Beneteau!

I did meet one Beneteau owner that I think exceeded the limits, we met in Puerto Williams near Cape Horn...he took his Bene 35 to Antartica...not a good boat for the Southern Ocean or in the ice but neither is my 55ft Tayana!

Phil


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Benes suck. Hunters rock.

Apart from that, I like the direction this thread is heading.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

there's a HUGE variety of Hunters


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Okay - my variety of Hunter rocks. Better?


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

And then there's Cheeki Rafiki right?


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

smackdaddy said:


> Okay - my variety of Hunter rocks. Better?


No. I passed on one of those when I got my first boat. You need to spend time on a real one made in a year that starts with a 2.

sure was easy drift this thread :cut_out_animated_em


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Honestly, at the end of the day, I tend to agree with York. I like the new Benes. However at the end of the day, I'd probably end up with a Jeanneau.


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## Scotty C-M (Aug 14, 2013)

Cool thread. I SO LOVE my Catalina. This is the third one we've bought. It's strong, safe, fast and very comfortable. I like the styling of the entire line of boats; it just feels right to me. We currently own a Catalina 400, MKII. The twin wheels are a huge plus. Access to the cockpit is a different world from single wheel boats. It also makes steering from the rail, my personal favorite position, much easier. The wheel is tight and responsive. The cabin has all the luxury we could ask for, and is so pretty. As a coastal cruiser it handles the rough stuff very well. If I were planning to cross oceans I'd have to beef up everything - which I would do with any other 12 year old boat. I love the way the boat sails. It's fast and dry and moves well in calms, as well as when the wind pipes up. Sailing between Santa Cruz and San Francisco we get plenty of different conditions. My wife and I sail by ourselves, or with family and friends. Just love the boat.


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## RainDog (Jun 9, 2009)

I agree with Scotty. Catalina's are the best. Never sailed a hunter, but have sailed several Benes. 

What is the deal with Bavarias? They are crazy cheap used.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

I owned a C27 and really loved sailing that boat. And there is no question that Catalinas hold their value FAR better than Hunters. There were only C38s and C36s in my price range when I was looking - and I wanted 38+. So Hunters and Benes were the most plentiful options. But I would love to have a 400. That 2-cabin layout is awesome.


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## Pär1 (Jun 20, 2014)

We have a 1999 Bavaria 36H. Very satisfied with her. Sail deasent, handle weather good but some weatherhelm in strong windguts.Early reefing of the main taket care of that. Exelent to live on.


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## cb32863 (Oct 5, 2009)

smackdaddy said:


> Benes suck. Hunters rock.
> 
> Apart from that, I like the direction this thread is heading.


Other than the fact that you decided to buy a Hunter, how the hell do you back this up? Beneteau has been building boats for 130+ years. Yes we know, a Hunter went around the horn, we all followed that..... Every dog has it's day. So has numerous Bene's. Plus, Finot-Conq designs smoke "'merican" boats.


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## jackdaw (Nov 21, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> Benes suck. Hunters rock.
> 
> Apart from that, I like the direction this thread is heading.


LOL Smackers, you off your meds??? Or are you back working on your Troll First Class merit badge?

Its pretty clear you like your boat, and thats very cool. But to built it up by trying to tear other brands down is kinda uncool, and sounds like you might have some creeping doubts about your purchase decision. I DO know of a nice First 38 for sale; still interested??


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

The most e citing thing the "production boats" did was to lower the price point to where many people could own their own boat. 
Prior it really was a rich mans purchase.

Similar to the automobile. Only the filthy rich could get filthy crankin the handle. But Henry T Ford changed that so 'everyman' could own one.
I am sure that a 1900 Mercedes wood have been better that a 1909 Model T Ford... but the price difference was huge.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

Wouldn't be fun to read a word battle between B/C/H/J (insert any boat brand letter I missed) production boat snobs? Since just because someone owns one of those it doesn't mean they like the others. It would be like the other boat bashing threads, just that is would be the unwashed masses. :captain:


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## Solar54 (May 9, 2015)

Love my old Catalina 36. It is not the worlds greatest boat, but she has always saved me me from my bad decisions and general bad seamanship. I don't think I would have the heart to ever replace her.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

cb32863 said:


> Other than the fact that you decided to buy a Hunter, how the hell do you back this up? Beneteau has been building boats for 130+ years. Yes we know, a Hunter went around the horn, we all followed that..... Every dog has it's day. So has numerous Bene's. Plus, Finot-Conq designs smoke "'merican" boats.





jackdaw said:


> LOL Smackers, you off your meds??? Or are you back working on your Troll First Class merit badge?
> 
> Its pretty clear you like your boat, and thats very cool. But to built it up by trying to tear other brands down is kinda uncool, and sounds like you might have some creeping doubts about your purchase decision. I DO know of a nice First 38 for sale; still interested??


Guys - I was joking.

Jack - I actually came >this< close to buying a First 38 (actually 375). But at the end of the day, I just didn't like it nearly as much as the H40. That headliner issue with those older Benes was a deal-killer for me, along with the cramped aft berth.

For what it's worth, you can see my own logic for the Hunter here...

http://bfsshop.com/blog/how-we-got-to-hunter/


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

Gotta agree about the Catalinas; I think they are among the best values out there. But I have to sing the praises of my Oday. Once upon a time, Oday was right up there with Catalina for good design, value engineering and good sailing qualities, all at an affordable price. I think my Oday 23 is a better-designed boat than her Catalina counterparts, and her construction has held up well. She may leak a bit around some deck fittings and need some recoring of the deck, but overall, she still looks and sails great. And I bought her lock, stock and barrel for less than the cost of a cheap used car. Can't beat it with a stick.


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## jorgenl (Aug 14, 2006)

When we bought our Catalina 400 (since sold) back in '09, after having discounted the BW boats due to our intended usage and dislike of varnishing and small cockpits, we nearly bought a Bene 423 2006 with tall rig, blue hull and all bells and whistles. Although I think the Bene is a better looking boat and a more modern design, in the end we preferred the Catalina for the dual wheel larger cockpit, wider side decks, better interior layout (kick ass aft stateroom) and nicer wood in the interior (where it belongs).

If I had the same choice again for the same intended usage, I would look at the Catalina 470 vs the Bene 473. 

I think the B473 is a really handsome, masculine looking boat with plenty of storage and likely quite a bit faster than the C470, but I probably would pick the C470. I think it is a kick ass boat for the price.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Do you guys think there is any merit to the general idea that Catalinas are generally built better/stronger/etc. then the European brands and/or Hunters? I ask that because they do hold their value far better and just wonder why that is? Is it just perception, or is it a more limited supply, or is the quality actually better, etc.?

Another thing I don't understand is why you don't see a larger volume of Catalinas out there. They are great boats, but don't do near the volume of the other brands it seems. I've never understood that.


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## jorgenl (Aug 14, 2006)

smackdaddy said:


> Do you guys think there is any merit to the general idea that Catalinas are generally built better/stronger/etc. then the European brands and/or Hunters? I ask that because they do hold their value far better and just wonder why that is? Is it just perception, or is it a more limited supply, or is the quality actually better, etc.?
> 
> Another thing I don't understand is why you don't see a larger volume of Catalinas out there. They are great boats, but don't do near the volume of the other brands it seems. I've never understood that.


Compared to B/J/H - Subjectively and biased - yes I do (but not by much).

At the same time, Catalina's hull shapes, keels, interiors etc are not as "contemporary" (Bob P's favorite word ;-)) as the B&J's

I think the reason you do not see many Catalina's in remote places is they do not sell in Europe.

American long distance cruisers sail BWB and Europeans sail European boats.


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## jackdaw (Nov 21, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> *Do you guys think there is any merit to the general idea that Catalinas are generally built better/stronger/etc. then the European brands* and/or Hunters? I ask that because they do hold their value far better and just wonder why that is? Is it just perception, or is it a more limited supply, or is the quality actually better, etc.?
> 
> Another thing I don't understand is why you don't see a larger volume of Catalinas out there. They are great boats, but don't do near the volume of the other brands it seems. I've never understood that.


No. I get on a LOT of boats, and I'd rate their current line's construction about the same at the Oceanus line. Well below the First series which I'd sail anywhere.. And above Hunter, which struggles to stay in business, let alone build a good boat. Design-wise Cat is WAY behind. I liken Catalina to Buick, a solid car designed for old people. Well built, but a but stodgy. I mean really, masthead rigs? Clipper bows?

Why not more Catalinas? Well, they do a very good job of making as many as people will buy. If you think they limit production to create a sense of demand you're wrong. They build as many as will sell.

The boats old-style and rig will limit demand outside the USA, where a whole generation of sailor have grown up never seeing a masthead rig sailboat. Hunter is better positioned in this regard.


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## RainDog (Jun 9, 2009)

smackdaddy said:


> Do you guys think there is any merit to the general idea that Catalinas are generally built better/stronger/etc. then the European brands and/or Hunters?


A boat worker I have great faith in that does electric/plumbing/diesel work, and has been on a ton of boats, told me that Catalinas have better system access than most of the others.


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## RainDog (Jun 9, 2009)

jorgenl said:


> At the same time, Catalina's hull shapes, keels, interiors etc are not as "contemporary" (Bob P's favorite word ;-)) as the B&J's


That makes sense and explains why I like the Catalinas better. I am old school when it comes to aesthetics. I find most of the "contemporary" boats hideous. I like the old H/B/C. I also like a boat where I can call the factory and get a part. Catalina for sure offers that. Not sure about the others.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

This thread has the same problem as any other thread where "production" boats get mentioned. You really can not just talk about the manufacturers since they make so many different models in different sizes. You can not talk about a 1985 30' Hunter while comparing it to a 2010 40' Bene as an example. Even among same size different models from a manufacturer there can be a world of difference.


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## RainDog (Jun 9, 2009)

Don0190 said:


> This thread has the same problem as any other thread where "production" boats get mentioned. You really can not just talk about the manufacturers since they make so many different models in different sizes. You can not talk about a 1985 30' Hunter while comparing it to a 2010 40' Bene as an example. Even among same size different models from a manufacturer there can be a world of difference.


I think there are real, meaningful, differences between boats from a manufacturer that builds 100s of boats a year vs. one that builds 10.

I also think there are real differences between a boat built to complete on price/value vs. one built to compete in other markets. B/H/C all fit in this category in my mind. Comparing a Catalina 27 to a XYZ 27, and a Catalina 40 to a DEF 40, Catalina will fill the same marketing niche in both comparisons. There are some exceptions, such as the Hunter HC50, but generally this is true.


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

WTF is a production boat?


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

cb32863 said:


> Other than the fact that you decided to buy a Hunter, how the hell do you back this up? Beneteau has been building boats for 130+ years. Yes we know, a Hunter went around the horn, we all followed that..... Every dog has it's day. So has numerous Bene's. Plus, Finot-Conq designs smoke "'merican" boats.





jackdaw said:


> No. I get on a LOT of boats, and I'd rate their current line's construction about the same at the Oceanus line. Well below the First series which I'd sail anywhere.. And above Hunter, which struggles to stay in business, let alone build a good boat. Design-wise Cat is WAY behind. I liken Catalina to Buick, a solid car designed for old people. Well built, but a but stodgy. I mean really, masthead rigs? Clipper bows?
> 
> Why not more Catalinas? Well, they do a very good job of making as many as people will buy. If you think they limit production to create a sense of demand you're wrong. They build as many as will sell.
> 
> The boats old-style and rig will limit demand outside the USA, where a whole generation of sailor have grown up never seeing a masthead rig sailboat. Hunter is better positioned in this regard.


Cool. Thanks Jack.


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## RainDog (Jun 9, 2009)

seaner97 said:


> WTF is a production boat?


The way it is usually used here, it means a boat from a volume builder built on spec. This would be as opposed to a boat built to order, a semi custom boat, or a boat built by a low-volume builder.

And yes, there are many boats in the grey area.


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## olddog60 (Oct 20, 2011)

I have had a Beneteau 42 and now own a Hunter Helson 470. These are my observations. I liked and trusted the Bene in Heavy weather and bigger seas. I never was afraid of anything I ran into. 40+knot winds 10 to 15 seas off Hatteras. Now I own a Hunter, yes it is faster, more comfortable and just about everything else. However, coming south off the same Hatteras I did on the Bene I was on edge in 30 knot winds and 6 to 12 ft seas. Beam seas had a lot to do with it, But I feel like I would just keep pushing in the Bene. I did not in the Hunter I did everything I could to be more comfortable. Changed course, reefing anything I could to get the boat settled down. I give you that was my first Ocean stint on the Hunter. I do a lot better now but still would like my Bene for rough water. I once owned a Sailboat, Now I own a fast Condo. Given I don't intend on crossing any Oceans I can live with being comfortable.


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## armandolio (Aug 7, 2011)

Down here in South Florida I see many more B/H/J than Catalinas. I love the outside on B and Js, but I can't stand the straight lines down below and the light colored woods. I want a marine feel. . My next boat will most likely be another Catalina as a result.


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

RainDog said:


> seaner97 said:
> 
> 
> > WTF is a production boat?
> ...


That's a business plan, not a boat design... But I kinda knew the answer. Was being tongue in cheek as it is a meaningless term. For all his faults, Smack's 'benehunterlinas' might actually be better around here. I'm not sure even Hunter does all their lines on spec.


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

first off, I am out classed here (but then again that would be true in any thread)

but how can you not accept production boats. I have owned three dinghies, three production boats.. I am guessing most people start on a production boat


I agree with Don0190 that each year a production boat company can get better or worse.. but any company can do that... are Honda Civics all good or all bad?

The thing I would wonder about from watching lots of sailing Vlog, when is a production boat someone's project. I see people redesigning the interior of a boat.. and making major changes...

I think of the house I grew up in.. there were 30 identical houses on that street.. well sort of.. every other one mirrored each other. For the first ten years they all looked the same, but I went back to the neighborhood 50 years later and while the houses take up the same space.. each one is a little different...


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

I believe it true that that the vast majority of people sailing coastal or cross-ocean are doing it in "production" boats (B,H,C,J,Other B)

Is there any other affirmation required?


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

Omatako said:


> I believe it true that that the vast majority of people sailing coastal or cross-ocean are doing it in "production" boats (B,H,C,J,Other B)
> 
> Is there any other affirmation required?


Unfortunately, this sort of logic is a race to the bottom. The "vast majority" of Americans buy whatever the cheapest thing is on a spectrum of goods and make it work, sometimes even if it was CLEARLY not designed for the task. The "vast majority" of people in the 80s drove heavy, huge, gas guzzling sedans with rear wheel drive until Datsun and Toyota started showing them how it was done (and then there was still the 'I'm not buying Japanese' crowd). Majority rule is simply either what people can afford or how the herd moves- it is not best, optimal or often even advisable. 
Interesting articles in SAIL recently, one written by a ARC organizer and delivery skipper that did a very good job of summing this up. The two headings were "It's not about the boat" and then "It's all about the boat". The less eloquent summation was - you CAN do just about anything in a modified production boat, but not nearly as well as if you had a boat built for the task, and, as has been said before, all boats are tradeoffs.
That being said- I own and sail a 'production' boat, but one that also made the aforementioned bluewater boats list- not that I'd necessarily use it for that without some serious mods.
As Jon used to say (damn I miss him)- It Depends ;-)


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## RainDog (Jun 9, 2009)

seaner97 said:


> That's a business plan, not a boat design... But I kinda knew the answer. Was being tongue in cheek as it is a meaningless term. For all his faults, Smack's 'benehunterlinas' might actually be better around here. I'm not sure even Hunter does all their lines on spec.


I agree. To me a production boat is any non-custom boat. Maybe not semi-custom either. For sure I would consider Island Packet, Pacific Seacraft, J/Boats, etc. production boats.

That is not the way it seems to be generally used however.


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## XSrcing (Aug 22, 2015)

The two guys I have been sailing with lately are pretty knowledgable. One of them is a yard hand at Sea View and the other is a young (30'ish) cruiser with his wife and dog. 

The yard hand says that he sees a lot more expensive repairs on the B/j/h's, but in the right hands (a capable DIY'er) they will go anywhere if you're not stupid. He sails a J40. 

The cruiser just moved back to Bellingham and lives on a Westsail 32 while he sells his Catalina 36, which is currently in Puerto Rico. He is also taking care of a Catalina 42 up here. 

They have both spent their entire lives on production sailboats and their general consensus is that Catalinas are a little slower, but built with a bit more care than the b/j/h's. 

I'm tempted to snag up the C36 from John.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

seaner97 said:


> Unfortunately, this sort of logic is a race to the bottom. The "vast majority" of Americans buy whatever the cheapest thing is on a spectrum of goods and make it work, sometimes even if it was CLEARLY not designed for the task.


Pretty bold statement without any backing data. Doesn't matter how many times you post something on the internet it doesn't make it true.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Omatako said:


> I believe it true that that the vast majority of people sailing coastal or cross-ocean are doing it in "production" boats (B,H,C,J,Other B)
> 
> Is there any other affirmation required?


Agreed. That should be enough - but for some it's not.

Another way of putting it...



seaner97 said:


> The "vast majority" of people in the 80s drove heavy, huge, gas guzzling sedans with rear wheel drive until Datsun and Toyota started showing them how it was done (and then there was still the 'I'm not buying Japanese' crowd).


Datsun and Toyota = BeneJeneBavaHunterLina.


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

Maybe. Or maybe they are Yugos.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

seaner97 said:


> Maybe. Or maybe they are Yugos.


Yugos are Japanese? Who knew?


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Yeah, Yugomatsumto.


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## MacBlaze (Jan 18, 2016)

smackdaddy said:


> Yugos are Japanese? Who knew?


Yugos are Fiats, which are Italian and make Ferrari's. Therefore production boats are Ferraris.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

MacBlaze said:


> Yugos are Fiats, which are Italian and make Ferrari's. Therefore production boats are Ferraris.


Your logic is sound. And if you'll allow me to play it out a bit more...

Ferrari also produces the F136 engine in my Maserati Quattroporte, while BeneJeneBavaHunterLinas are out there successfully sailing the world's oceans...despite BWCs...and Buick and Oldsmobile...and the Japanese...and the Czechs...and Brent Swain.

Heh-heh.


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## RainDog (Jun 9, 2009)

Maserati are NOT production boats, yet they also make terrible blue water cruisers.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

York - let me tweak the nipple of your thread just a bit...

Looking at production boats over the past 3-5 years...which brand has the best overall Cat-A boats out there, and why? I know this is a very personal thing to many who might own a particular brand, but I think it would be cool to find out what people think about what's going on TODAY - not what WAS going on 30 years ago.

For example, I own a 1989 Hunter 40. I bought this particular boat for very specific reasons - and I have no problem taking it into blue water. I love our boat.










BUT - I wouldn't buy a 2015 Hunter. It's not that I don't think they are not fit for blue water or anything like that...they are. I just think they are not nearly as attractive aesthetically as they used to be:










Add to that an interior finish that feels pretty dated:










And I just can't get excited. It just feels frumpy. Same for their 47.

Their 50 looks much more proportional to my eye...










And reminds me a lot of the Catalina 445 aesthetic...










But still. I just can't get excited about these US-based brands.

After following many, many stories about Benes over the past few years, I'm a little suspect of some of their construction/methodology decisions. But I very much like their aesthetics and features. I don't yet know enough about Bavarias to really take an informed position on those.

So, with this line of logic and personal preference, if I were to buy new today I think I'd probably end up with Jeanneau 57...




























That boat just ticks all my boxes. She's incredible.

What about you guys?


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

smackdaddy said:


> Yugos are Japanese? Who knew?


Don't think benehuntelinas are Japanese either, BTW.


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

Don0190 said:


> Pretty bold statement without any backing data. Doesn't matter how many times you post something on the internet it doesn't make it true.


You're right, it doesn't make it true. But anyone can look at sales stats, and I do believe I have two very concrete examples right in the prior post. Or maybe you stopped reading?


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## RainDog (Jun 9, 2009)

It is interesting where Catalina is going with the new 425. Fractional rig, SA/D of 21, DL 130, and Waterline of 39'1". This is vs 17, 196, and 36' of the old 42. Seems like they are reacting to some of the things people are complaining about here.


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## XSrcing (Aug 22, 2015)

RainDog said:


> It is interesting where Catalina is going with the new 425. Fractional rig, SA/D of 21, DL 130, and Waterline of 39'1". This is vs 17, 196, and 36' of the old 42. Seems like they are reacting to some of the things people are complaining about here.


So it's going to look like the Starship Voyager rather than Enterprise with no proof that either works better.


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

Tartans rule... the best production boat of all time.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I had to go back and read the OP to be sure I understood what we were discussing. The premise was that Bene's are the best bang for the buck. They are a very good bang for the buck, best is in the eye of the beholder.

No denying, we bought our J for two reasons. 

First, the layout and capability to have guests was among the best we found of any make/model in the 50ft range, period. I need to commonly sleep 6 or more, put them all comfortably in the cockpit, put plates on tables, not laps, and I still need to be able to get around them to sail her! We bought her used, because we didn't even like the newer models as much as the limited run of the 54 (2004-2008). It sold more hulls in those 5 years than any other boat over 50ft, ever. I would still buy a used 54 and entirely refit her, before I bought a 53, 57 or 64. The latter aren't bad boats. They are made with the newer "manufactured" teak that I just don't like. They are bigger too, but you don't seem to get any more functionality. A bigger feel, but similar accommodations. Having a dinghy garage take up a ton of room and it only holds an 8ft dink on the 57. Silly, IMO.

Second, was value. Compared to other higher end hulls of similar capacity, we paid at least a third less. There is no denying that our boat is a tad less solid, or beefy, or whatever you like to call it, than some higher end semi-custom hulls. But she doesn't suffer from have been clearly undersized either. Mains are Harken 66s, cleats have backing plates, etc. In fact, I paid more for my 4 yr old used 54 at the time than what it was going to cost to buy a brand new 50. Values have plummeted since, which obviously doesn't do my balance sheet any good, but makes them a great buy. 

In the end, we wanted a coastal cruiser that can make a properly planned and prepared open water passage from time to time. We got that. We wanted a second home on the water, not a cramped racer or cockpit that is best designed to be pooped in a following sea. We got that. 

Of course, I have some drooling day dreams of bigger and better, when retired. They are all ridiculously more money. I was at a boat show with a buddy, as we were touring all the bling and lamenting what it would really cost each of us to move up. He asked me, "what would you think if you had to keep your current boat for the rest of your life?" I replied, "I will live happily every after"


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

Minnewaska said:


> In the end, we wanted a coastal cruiser that can make a properly planned and prepared open water passage from time to time. We got that. We wanted a second home on the water, not a cramped racer or cockpit that is best designed to be pooped in a following sea. We got that.


Minne, I think you just wrote the design brief for 90% of the production boats out there -- and also summed up how most sailors use their boats.


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## jackdaw (Nov 21, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> BeneJeneBavaHunterLina.


Smack, I simply do not understand your fixation in creating 'one class' of production boats; as if all mass produced boats are the same.

I'd guess that 95% of the fiberglass sailboat sailed for pleasure are 'production boats' Within that huge number is a wide range of price, built quality and features. Often these ranges exist within a single builders lineup. Often builders have several lines with different qualities meant for differing audiences.

Bunching them all together serves what end? I bought the boats I own because they meet my specific needs and met my budget. I know I could have bought better production boats. I know for sure I could have bought worse.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

jackdaw said:


> Smack, I simply do not understand your fixation in creating 'one class' of production boats; as if all mass produced boats are the same.
> 
> I'd guess that 95% of the fiberglass sailboat sailed for pleasure are 'production boats' Within that huge number is a wide range of price, built quality and features. Often these ranges exist within a single builders lineup. Often builders have several lines with different qualities meant for differing audiences.
> 
> Bunching them all together serves what end? I bought the boats I own because they meet my specific needs and met my budget. I know I could have bought better production boats. I know for sure I could have bought worse.


Jack - I didn't create that class of boats. I just picked up where past arguments left off. If you look back at the various "blue water boat" debates in various forums, you'll see that the "non-worthy" mass-produced boats are traditionally classed this way...actually it's mostly been just "BeneHunterLinas" - I just added the JeneBava in these debates since those brands are in the same range and becoming far more prevalent. These boats were/are the "clorox bottles", the "bendytoys", the big-assed condos, the dock queens, the "wouldn't sail it out of sight of land" boats that have been critiqued to death for years.

Now, you could argue semantics all day long regarding what exactly a production boat is or isn't. But I'm personally not really interested in that. I've been far more interested in why these specific production boats _wouldn't_ be fit for blue water. Lots of reasons have been given over the years - just not very compelling or rational ones as far as I'm concerned.


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## Scotty C-M (Aug 14, 2013)

Quote by Smackdaddy:

"Now, you could argue semantics all day long regarding what exactly a production boat is or isn't. But I'm personally not really interested in that. I've been far more interested in why these specific production boats wouldn't be fit for blue water. Lots of reasons have been given over the years - just not very compelling or rational ones as far as I'm concerned."

That's a good comment for the Blue Water Production Boat" thread. This thread is "In Praise of &#8230;" That's more interesting. Let's talk about that. That "other" thread is so jammed up. This thread has a more positive premise. For example, there was a previous comment that Tartans are the Best. I wonder why? I like Tartans. They seem to have solid builds and a lovely kind of traditional interior - but I'm really not to familiar with them. Can someone give me some examples of why they like them? I also encourage people to comment of why they like specific production boats. That is why I commented on my boat, the Catalina 400. Anyone out there like to tell me why the Catalina 445 is so good?


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## RainDog (Jun 9, 2009)

I will put in my 2 cents for the Catalina 42 - 2 cabin. I think it is almost a perfect layout for a couples live-aboard boat. Big cockpit, shallow draft, great master cabin, plenty of room for a couple to stay for a week or two, lots of dedicated storage, room to carry 2 full sized bikes safely, good engine access, a large selection of good used models at a good price, easy to buy, easy to sell. I love the dedicated pantry, generator room, and great engine room access. The only thing I don't like about it is the anchoring arrangement, especially the bow roller, but that could be fixed for a reasonable cost.


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## Scotty C-M (Aug 14, 2013)

Raindog, do you like the pulllman berth? I particularly like the in-line center berth because it is easier for my wife and I to get in and out of. Other than that I love the Catalina 42. How do you carry the bikes? Also, what would you do to improve the bow roller? 

Thanks,

Scotty


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## RainDog (Jun 9, 2009)

Scotty C-M said:


> Raindog, do you like the pulllman berth? I particularly like the in-line center berth because it is easier for my wife and I to get in and out of. Other than that I love the Catalina 42. How do you carry the bikes? Also, what would you do to improve the bow roller?


I do like the pullman berth. We are used to climbing over each other, so not really that big of a deal for us. The trade off is the nice forepeak head/sail storage, which I like a lot.

The port aft hall area aft of the galley fits bikes great when sailing. When at anchor/mooring the bikes go on the foredeck or on shore.

The bow roller is completely insufficient for real anchoring. If I buy a 42 I will have a new one fabricated by a machine shop and replace the factory roller.


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

I liked my Cat22 for sailing the finger lakes. Swing keel to get up close and could even beach her on sand beaches without worry. With the pop top, pretty comfortable weekend accommodations. Sailed reasonably well, not the fastest, but if I wanted fast I'd be on a powerboat. Simple, easy set up. Horrendous plaid cushions.

I've liked Bristols, Tartans, Freedoms, Pearsons, Sabres, Nonesuch, Tayana, C&C, Allied, etc, etc. All are production boats. Hate the Euro styling of the new boats from an aesthetic sense. The wraparound eyebrow 'windows' and the 'star wars (1977)' interiors just don't do it for me. The move to the 'clean deck' is fine as long as you see no weather, but I'd like something to hang on to when the going gets rough.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Which ones hold their values the best....that might give you an idea of quality

See a lot of 70s and 80s C&Cs, Tartans and Sabres around. Quite a few Catalinas. Very few Benes and Hunters except Cherubinis. They just don't last. I have an 83 C&C not many H/B left that old. Catalina though has a great following and even though old fashioned looking stays with their models for years. 

Most quality boats at 20-25 years you reach their half life . I like classic shape and would give up them for a sleek fat assed plumb bow with picture windows and skylights in it. You can keep the double wheel large cavernous cockpit for one which is safer. I particularly like masthead and would never own a B&R rig where I couldn't sail downwind. I prefer a traditional main with four full battens and like to see my traveler not have it on an arch hidden by my Bimini. But these are MY person preferences not to denegrate others. I p 

However each has its market and shape. Every sailor is looking for different qualities. There's room for all


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

chef2sail said:


> But these are MY person preferences not to denegrate others. However each has its market and shape. Every sailor is looking for different qualities. There's room for all


So - we'll start with this mutual understanding and then look at your comments...



chef2sail said:


> Which ones hold their values the best....that might give you an idea of quality
> 
> See a lot of 70s and 80s C&Cs, Tartans and Sabres around. Quite a few Catalinas. Very few Benes and Hunters except Cherubinis. They just don't last.


They don't last? They lose their value?

Well, Hunter really got started in 1973 and Cherubini was the first designer and the vaunted 37 being the first "real" cruising boat that got traction in the late 70's early 80's. If you do a search on YW (US) for Hunters from '75-'85 in the 36'-40' range, there are 22 Hunters for sale, 16 of them being the Cherubini 36 and 37s. And this is just YW.

The asking prices range from $18K to a very optimistic $78K (for the 40), with the majority of the Cherubinis being under $35K. What did the Cherubinis sell for back in the late '70s - early '80s? I honestly don't know, but I would guess somewhere between $50K and $80K? So how have they held their value?

Beneteau has been around since the late 1800's, but didn't really start hitting the US market until the First Series in the early to mid-80's, though there was the goofy-looking Evasion 37 (and a couple of other European models). So, are you saying that the Firsts don't last? That would be news. In any case, it would make perfect sense that you don't see that many Beneteaus of that era here in the US. They were all in Europe at the time.

As for holding value, the Firsts in this YW search are in the $34K to $60K range asking price. What did they sell for back in the early 1980s? I honestly don't know, but I would guess somewhere between $80K and $120K?

Tartans, Sabres, and C&Cs are all US-based builders. So it certainly makes sense you'd be seeing more of them - but taking the above into consideration, that's not really saying anything. After all, Sabre folded their sailing yacht business, C&C is barely hanging on with a small one-design and a single performance cruiser, and Tartan is having a very hard time competing with the production boats you list.

Let's look at their values...

There are 28 Tartans in the same YW search (a little more than Hunter) and are all over the place in pricing from $32K to a very, very optimistic $119K, with the majority of them being under $60K.

There are 34 C&Cs in the same YW search. Definitely a lot more. The asking prices range from $20K to $74K, with the majority of them being under $40K (about the same as Hunter).

There are 11 Sabres ranging from $50K to $90K.

Again, I don't know what these brands sold for in the 80's, but since they were the "premium" brands back then, I assume quite a bit more than the production boats above. Have they held their value significantly better? I'd say maybe for Sabre. Not so much for Tartan. And _definitely_ not for C&C.

Virtually all the other brands you see in that YW search for that decade have gone under.

So, again, I don't think you're seeing what you think you're seeing.



chef2sail said:


> I have an 83 C&C not many H/B left that old.


You're joking, right? See above.



chef2sail said:


> Most quality boats at 20-25 years you reach their half life .


Where do you get this data? This is actually something I've been very interested in. So I'd love to see how you're getting this.



chef2sail said:


> I like classic shape and would give up them for a sleek fat assed plumb bow with picture windows and skylights in it.


So, I'm taking this with your grain of salt above...



chef2sail said:


> But these are MY person preferences not to denegrate others.


...and understand that just your preference. I personally prefer to not sail in a cramped, dark, slow, hole of a boat.



chef2sail said:


> You can keep the double wheel large cavernous cockpit for one which is safer.


Okay. Not denigrating...not denigrating. Enjoy your "safe cockpit" at anchor. There are thousands of these production boats with their "double wheel large cavernous cockpits" all over the world's oceans as we speak having a great, safe time - and enjoying the fruits of such perceived danger at sea and at anchor.



chef2sail said:


> I particularly like masthead and would never own a B&R rig where I couldn't sail downwind.


You're joking right? I could have sworn I've sailed downwind many, many times.



chef2sail said:


> I prefer a traditional main with four full battens and like to see my traveler not have it on an arch hidden by my Bimini.


Then that's exactly what you should have. After all...



chef2sail said:


> Every sailor is looking for different qualities. There's room for all


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Ah smack I was wondering how long it would take for you to troll me and try and go after my comments. You never disappoint

I guess you must have ignored this phrase in what I said *Very few Benes and Hunters except Cherubini's*. I have huge respect for those designs. They are great boats

I also stated that boats are a large personal preference and expressed my own personal preference as it is common here on SN where there obviously is no right or wrong answer here.

I would fully expect also that a person who owns their boat would also state why the got that type of boat gain no right or wrong answer here.

This isn't a courtroom and the observations I have made, may also have been made by others.

C&C has been around for a while and has morphed to stay alive> I guess Hunter has also. Aren't they Maslow or something like that Hunters now. Aren't they owned by a powerboat company. If they hadn't done that wouldn't they have folded up shop, C&C aligned itself with Tartan another classy sailboat builder to stay alive. They always have been known as racing cruisers and are part of that spinoff of that company.

In terms of speed, my " slow, smaller older" 35 foot C&C would blow the doors off your 40 Hunter in most instances. A comparable 41 C&C would leave you behind as a dot on the horizon in 4 hours on almost every point of sail. Sabres and Tartans would do the same thing. To compare any Hunter with any C&C in terms of speed or pointing ability, well In reality there is no comparison.

Describing a boat as a dark hole really again goes back to personal preferences. We enjoy the warm teak woods of our cabin and have a head entirely of teak. Wood is kind of classy to some people. That's why they choose it. Its certainly not dark below. Its warm and safe and has high quality finishes that look as good 30 years later as the day they were installed.. Again personal preference

Boats are many times personal preferences as I stated before. A lot is determined by who uses it and what the use is for. Many brands can be used for passage making, etc. All can be used for sailing on weekends.

The production boats by their very nature have provided the opportunity for those whose needs are volume lovers as well as a better price point because of mass production to allow many boaters to have sailboats and meet their needs. I certainly am not about or against this.

Its always good to see more involved in sailing. The more the merrier


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

chef2sail said:


> Ah smack I was wondering how long it would take for you to troll me and try and go after my comments. You never disappoint
> 
> I guess you must have ignored this phrase in what I said *Very few Benes and Hunters except Cherubini's*. I have huge respect for those designs. They are great boats
> 
> I also stated that boats are a large personal preference and expressed my own personal preference as it is common here on SN where there obviously is no right or wrong answer here.


Oh, now Chef - don't take it personally. I'm not "trolling" you, I'm just addressing your comments. And as you say, expressing personal preference is common here.

It's just when it moves into describing boats that aren't yours as "fat assed plumb bow with picture windows and skylights" and "(unsafe) double wheel large cavernous cockpits" and "B&R rigs that can't sail downwind", etc. that it becomes a little more than that. Hence, my reply.



chef2sail said:


> I would fully expect also that a person who owns their boat would also state why the got that type of boat gain no right or wrong answer here.
> 
> This isn't a courtroom and the observations I have made, may also have been made by others.


Exaaactly.



chef2sail said:


> C&C has been around for a while and has morphed to stay alive> I guess Hunter has also. Aren't they Maslow or something like that Hunters now. Aren't they owned by a powerboat company. If they hadn't done that wouldn't they have folded up shop, C&C aligned itself with Tartan another classy sailboat builder to stay alive.


I have nothing against C&C. I'm glad they've survived. I'm just trying to keep facts straight. As for Hunter, I've said many times I don't like the look of the new Hunters. I wouldn't buy one. I also wouldn't buy the new C&C 41 (not my kind of boat - though their pricing is getting better). I'd buy a Jeanneau, which is about half of what that C&C is trying to go for.



chef2sail said:


> In terms of speed, my " slow, smaller older" 35 foot C&C would blow the doors off your 40 Hunter in most instances.


Okay. Your boat rates around 120? My boat rates 96 (NE PHRF). Good luck with that.

Again, just keeping the facts straight.



chef2sail said:


> A comparable 41 C&C would leave you behind as a dot on the horizon in 4 hours on almost every point of sail. Sabres and Tartans would do the same thing.


The C&C 40 rates 96...just like my Hunter. So kind of a dead heat. But, true, the 41s do rate better than my Hunter with more water line....and WAY better than your 35. So I'll watch out for that 41, while you watch us all pulling away.

Sabre 40s are fast (75). I'll give you that.

Tartan 40s are not so fast (105). So I should be just fine there...the T40 will only be a little ahead of you while you watch me and C&Cs, through your binocs of course, watch the Sabre smoke us all.



chef2sail said:


> To compare any Hunter with any C&C in terms of speed or pointing ability, well In reality there is no comparison.


Well, unless you're using actual numbers like PHRF. See above.



chef2sail said:


> Describing a boat as a dark hole really again goes back to personal preferences. We enjoy the warm teak woods of our cabin and have a head entirely of teak. Wood is kind of classy to some people. That's why they choose it. Its certainly not dark below. Its warm and safe and has high quality finishes that look as good 30 years later as the day they were installed.. Again personal preference


Agreed. Personal preference. I only used the "dark hole" reference to mimic your own generalized critique regarding "picture windows and skylights" (sounds like you thought this was a bad thing). Some people like some light below and windows and skylights allow that. It's pretty nice actually...when you want it. You can always shade them to make your modern boat more of a dark hole. I guess it's nice to have the choice.



chef2sail said:


> Boats are many times personal preferences as I stated before. A lot is determined by who uses it and what the use is for. Many brands can be used for passage making, etc. All can be used for sailing on weekends.


True. That's what these threads (especially this one) are typically all about. Virtually all the modern Cat-A rated production boats are great for passage making, etc.



chef2sail said:


> The production boats by their very nature have provided the opportunity for those whose needs are volume lovers as well as a better price point because of mass production to allow many boaters to have sailboats and meet their needs. I certainly am not about or against this.
> 
> Its always good to see more involved in sailing. The more the merrier


Exactly. And there are several premium brands out there that allow people who want to do so to spend a hell of a lot more money for a boat for the same purpose as the value brands. And I'm certainly not against this.

So it's all good. I think we're in total agreement.


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

Survival of a business often has little to do with quality of a product than the type of business management of said product. Using whether a company is solvent as a benchmark is at best misleading and more usually disingenuous.


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## RainDog (Jun 9, 2009)

Especially in sailboats. If you build a high quality product that lasts, you eventually put yourself out of business because you cannot compete with your used products. Only way around this is to substantially change your models or build products that don't hold their value for decades.

Pacific Seacraft now seems to make most of their money by restoring older models rather than building new ones. Word on the owners forum is they have up to a 2 year waiting list if you want to get restoration work done. Then again they have made no significant change to their models ever.


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

I'd also point out that the 'half-life' of the hull of most FRP boats is probably closer to 50 years than 20-25. The rest of the systems? Probably not.


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

RainDog said:


> Especially in sailboats. If you build a high quality product that lasts, you eventually put yourself out of business because you cannot compete with your used products. Only way around this is to substantially change your models or build products that don't hold their value for decades.
> 
> Pacific Seacraft now seems to make most of their money by restoring older models rather than building new ones. Word on the owners forum is they have up to a 2 year waiting list if you want to get restoration work done. Then again they have made no significant change to their models ever.


Wouldn't you sell more new ones by having old ones to stand in front of. When shopping, all boats are typically looked at (in general) and I would think the process to be quite the opposite of your portrayal. The PSC example would be hard to sell as an apples to apples example of why a manufacturer would choose to stop building Boats.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Tell that to production builders like HR, Rustler, Hylas, Passport or Outbound. Or truly high end production boats like Morris,Cherubini, or Swan or even BCC. They all like PSC make an excellent product. Given nature of stick built construction and initial use of high quality components they remain in service doing passages for decade after decade. Standing rigging maybe reworked and electronics updated but the rest survives extensive use. 
Hence, like production boats such as oyster, swan, Baltic they drop mom and pop boat making moving on the big ones with greater margins. It's not a surprise PSC had Bob design that beautiful ketch not another 40 something.


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

seaner97 said:


> Survival of a business often has little to do with quality of a product than the type of business management of said product. Using whether a company is solvent as a benchmark is at best misleading and more usually disingenuous.


I would say at least in this case it has as much to do with the market than the builder. Sure there needs to be good management but even good management cant create buyers, at best they can get as many as possible.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

There are production builders and then there are really big production builders. My Catalina 34 was in “production” for twenty two years. During which, they built 1,825 C34s. That averages 83 boats per year. And that was just one model (They built the same number of C36’s during that time!). Contrast that with the outbound where they built a total of 54 boats. When the C34s first came out they were about $50k. Mine was a little under $100k (in 2000). They were as high as $140k when they stopped production. This was the result of rising costs in raw materials and production. Used C34s were in competition with new construction and as late as 2005, I could sell my boat for more than I paid for it (had an unsolicited offer). Catalina finally ended production of both the C34 and C36 in favor of their new C355.

Saying that a builder made boats “too well” as a reason for bankruptcy doesn’t make any sense. What makes more sense is the rising production costs for all boat builders have been increasing at an alarming rate. And the resulting prices of the high end producers have priced them out of the market. The boat consumer is no longer insensitive to price no matter the badge recognition. The market for new boats continues (albeit at a slower pace) and the void is being filled by the likes of Beneteau, Jeaneau, Catalina and Hunter. 

Getting back to the production discussion. I personally prefer the Pullman style berths in the C42 to the centerline aft berth in the C400 and C470. I went to Mexico this past fall in a C470 and I kept getting pitched out of the aft berth to the point that I moved seat cushions from the main saloon to fill in around the berth. How do you guys in centerline berths do it? How do you rig lee cloths in the aft stateroom?


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Here's The Jefe in his Baba 40 cruising along in the Roaring Forties in his unmodified production boat.

Around Alone Days-88-89-90.
Day-88.
24hr.Run=111 NM. Pos. Lat.45*50'S. Long.53*52'E. Weather= Bar=1022mb.Wind=SW 8-30kts.nSeas=SW8-15ft. Cabin Temp=46*50* Day-89.
24hr.Run=122 NM. Pos. Lat.46*02'S. Long.56*31'E. Weather= Bar=1018mb. Wind=N. 6-12kts. Seas=N. 6-8ft. Cabin Temp=48*53*.
Day-90.
24hr, Run=131NM. Pos.Lat.47*12'S Long.59*12'E.Weather=Bar=1000mb. Wind= N. 12-40kts. Gusting 50kts. Seas=15-20ft.NW. Cabin Temp=49*-56*

Total miles sailed so far=11,950 NM.
Miles sailed last three days=364 NM.
Miles left to go to cape Leeuwin, Australia=2220 NM.
Top Speed so far=12.3kts.
The Rest of the Story.
Day88.
Today was a busy and, mysterious day. After breakfast I looked into a problem I was having getting the auto pilot to engage. Now of course that evolves pulling lots of gear out to get at it, including the 60lb. CQR anchor. The fix was easy as the morse cable had slipped where it was clamped down, and just needed adjustment an tightening. It is very important to have a back up to the wind vane, like when you must work on wind vane and there is nobody to steer, could be a big problem.
The high is moving over us and the winds are going light, so I roll out "Patches" the Genoa and see another rip in it. I pull it off the furler and look it over on deck, finding three total rips requiring patches. Fortunately today the winds are light. The seas down and the sun is out.
Things got mysterious as I was sewing on the last patch, suddenly I started hearing what sounded like muffled explosions, and rumbling that went on continuously for several minutes. I scanned the horizon looking for thunder clouds but there was only blue sky, then I searched the sky for a jet-plane nothing, then the sea for a boat, still nothing. My mind tells me that it was either a volcanic eruption under the sea, although I seen no steam, or possibly an earthquake. The truth is I don't know what it was.
Now getting back to the genoa "Patches" I even have composed a song for it and it goes like this.
Patches oh what should I do?
I swear I'll always fix you,
Though it may not be right,
I'm coming for you tonight,
Patches, I'll always need you.
[See you can go "nuts" out here.]
Day-89.
Today we sailed in light air that started slowly building over night from the north.
I can't begin to tell you, how confusing it is when it gets light about 20-minutes earlier every day, and then you are on a Bahia time schedule, it just seems really strange to wake up in the morning when it gets light and realize it's now 9pm.
The food supplies are holding up well with the exception of the Coke 0=0 now, and there are but 6-onions left, and one apple.
I have tons of food in cans etc. but messed up by not buying a lot of popcorn as I love it and was afraid I might break a tooth eating it. Oh well next time more popcorn.
I hope now to keep radio communication the rest of the way. It is very important, not only to feel connected, but my weather comes to me through Sailmail.
I want to invite all of you and any of your friends that want to travel along on this adventure, to check out our blog site at. Debbie has been posting not only this adventure there but also photos of us living the cruising life style over the past 17-years, so enjoy!
Day-90.
Stronger north winds to 40+ kts. are coming today and will be on our beam.
I want to thank the "gang" at Latitude 38* for coming along on this voyage and keeping the readers up dated as to our progress through, that great magazine out of San Francisco.
It's funny how things work out, like the effects of the failure of the wind generator was cancelled out by the failure of the refrigeration, so maybe to wrongs can make it right.
The three solar panels more than keep up with all our other electrical needs, like, Radar A.I.S., electric auto pilot when needed, lights, vhf radio, ssb radio, computers etc. I have been impressed how well they have done especially the two hung on the one inch life line rail on either side. Twice they have been knocked loose of one of their supporting legs but I merely had to put the stainless steel leg back in the socket mounted on the cap rail and tighten the Allen screw that attempts to keep them in place.
Last night like always, I looked forward to crawling into my berth and getting some rest, one of my favorite times of the day. I had been asleep for about 15-minutes when I smelled something burning. I opened my eyes and the cabin was pitch black, that being strange as normally the A.I.S. illuminates it with a soft light. I jumped out of my berth and turned on the light. The entire cabin was filled with smoke as we had an electrical fire. Fortunately I smelled it when I did as the air was awful, that I had been breathing. I opened up the hatch and aired out the cabin all the time coughing my lungs out.
Luckily the breaker had tripped and there was no ongoing fire. In the darkness I was able to close the breaker back in and seen where the wire was shorted out. As it turned out this was a 12 volt wire that we no longer used and for some reason the connection on the end of it had shorted out, melting it down to where I could not even recognize where it might go.]
Sucking up some fresher air in the Southern Ocean the Jefe'


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Boundo:
Actually, the 63' PSC ketch was a custom project that was brought to PSC for bid and they won the contract.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

They did a knock out job


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

albrazzi said:


> I would say at least in this case it has as much to do with the market than the builder. Sure there needs to be good management but even good management cant create buyers, at best they can get as many as possible.


No doubt they are inter-related in all cases, but very overly simplistic to think that companies that survive make good (or better than failing ones) products.


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

seaner97 said:


> No doubt they are inter-related in all cases, but very overly simplistic to think that companies that survive make good (or better than failing ones) products.


Correct, success and quality don't always coexist. Walmart is a perfect example everything is crap but there's a market from the affordability standpoint. But some things cant be sustained when downgraded, evidenced by their closing stores in markets where they ran the Mom and Pops out and now there's nothing.
Please don't make me wish I hadn't brought up Walmart.
Even Quality and Value couldn't save this scenario.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

I'm on my Hunter tonight looking over how well it's built. I'm so glad I don't have a Tartan or ancient Hans Christian. 

Praise to the PBs!


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## XSrcing (Aug 22, 2015)

Pics or it didn't happen.


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## CJT (Jan 31, 2016)

New here. Enjoying this thread and by way of an intro thought I'd throw in.
I am a terrible, irrational sort of boat buyer who has only ever been saved by old but well (overbuilt) constructed production boats. Production boats have provided wonderful stories from crazy (and not so crazy), low budget sailors doing "inappropriate" things and made it economically possible for soooo many people to sail just about anywhere. It has also been interesting to see the technological developments in fiberglass production.


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## bob77903 (Nov 10, 2008)

smackdaddy said:


> I'm on my Hunter tonight looking over how well it's built. I'm so glad I don't have a Tartan or ancient Hans Christian.
> 
> Praise to the PBs!


Me too :devil


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## Yorksailor (Oct 11, 2009)

I started the thread because of seeing how well the Beneteaus, owned by my friends, performed on the 2015 Pacific crossings. However, we did not, ourselves, buy a Beneteau because we feel that the fin keel and balanced spade rudder are too vulnerable in groundings.

The loss of 'Cheeki Rafiki ' and the recent loss of a production boat off Guadeloupe emphasise the vulnerability of the keel and rudder.

Incidentally we only run aground when we try and get near our home in Biscayne Bay, Miami or foolishly venture onto the ICW. It is 5 years since we grounded in the Caribbean or Pacific and that was when we were approaching a customs dock! In any anchorage you will find us on the outside away from shallow water.

Phil


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

bob77903 said:


> Me too :devil


Oops! I was just kidding about the Tartan and HC...just picking up where Chef had swerved off the road. No offense intended my friend.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

That's funny.....never seen any of those " quick" Hunter 40s in races. Guess I have too look harder😀😀😀😀😀


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## bob77903 (Nov 10, 2008)

smackdaddy said:


> Oops! I was just kidding about the Tartan and HC...just picking up where Chef had swerved off the road. No offense intended my friend.


Knew you were kidding, I was just being an Intelligent Rear End


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

GeorgeB said:


> How do you guys in centerline berths do it? How do you rig lee cloths in the aft stateroom?


The centerline aft berth is for when we're on anchor and want a nice place to sleep. My boat has a queen-size double in the aft cabin but we don't sleep there when we're on the wind. We sleep in the saloon where the lee bunk is comfy and safe and has a lee cloth just in case. If there are two people wanting to sleep, the forepeak has no need for lee cloths. And if three people are wanting to sleep, the aft berth also has a lee side that has a lee cloth to keep one on the mattress.

Having said that, the CAT1 requirements in NZ say that:

"16.04 Bunks suitable for use at sea including lee cloths where required".

So the aft cabin is not required to have lee cloths simply because it is not intended for use at sea. But if one was being bloody minded about it, the mattress can be in two halves with a zipper to hold the halves together for non-sailing conditions or it can be zipped apart and a center lee cloth pulled up from under. Lee cloths on both outer edges contain the sleeper in his/her part of the bunk. So two berths with lee cloths either side.

Not as hard as it would at first seem.


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## jackdaw (Nov 21, 2010)

Interesting stat from 5 years of ARC Atlantic crossings.

What’s Popular? Most popular brands in the ARC, 2008-2012 (in order):
Beneteau, 
Jeanneau, 
Swan, 
Oyster, 
Bavaria,
Hallberg-Rassy, 
Lagoon, 
Hanse, 
X-Yachts
Noise level


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## Bleemus (Oct 13, 2015)

jackdaw said:


> Interesting stat from 5 years of ARC Atlantic crossings.
> 
> What's Popular? Most popular brands in the ARC, 2008-2012 (in order):
> 
> ...


Never sailed a Noise Level.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Omatako said:


> The centerline aft berth is for when we're on anchor and want a nice place to sleep. My boat has a queen-size double in the aft cabin but we don't sleep there when we're on the wind. We sleep in the saloon where the lee bunk is comfy and safe and has a lee cloth just in case. If there are two people wanting to sleep, the forepeak has no need for lee cloths. And if three people are wanting to sleep, the aft berth also has a lee side that has a lee cloth to keep one on the mattress.
> 
> Having said that, the CAT1 requirements in NZ say that:
> 
> ...


This is exactly right. Our boat also has a centerline queen aft. It is AWESOME. And there is PLENTY of room to sleep 3-4 at sea in protected berths (saloon and v) without having to use the aft cabin at all. Even so, if it's needed, you just stack cushions, etc. around you. It's not rocket science.

I'd MUCH rather have the full aft cabin than a couple of extra "sea berths" I don't need.


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

jackdaw said:


> Interesting stat from 5 years of ARC Atlantic crossings.
> 
> What's Popular? Most popular brands in the ARC, 2008-2012 (in order):
> Beneteau,
> ...


Yeah - and Oyster will likely drop a few notches after the problems they've had of late. That really only leaves HR as the traditional bluewater brand. Modern production boats seem to be doing very well in every respect.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Nuff said...


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## cb32863 (Oct 5, 2009)

smackdaddy said:


> Nuff said...


So a boat sails around some islands coastal cruising...... oh, the sailgasm I am having...... Seriously, you will cherry pick anything to justify your opinion and your purchase reasons..... Guess Hunter is the only boat out there that can do what's in this video.. Gonna sell my 235 cause of this video.... damn, I was stupid in my purchase decision.... So distraught now.....


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## SaltyMonkey (May 13, 2010)

cb32863 said:


> So a boat sails around some islands coastal cruising...... oh, the sailgasm I am having...... Seriously, you will cherry pick anything to justify your opinion and your purchase reasons..


You have to just learn to ignore SmackDaddy. His mouth has already been proven to be bigger than his credibility.


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## MarcStAug (Nov 2, 2014)

Yikes. The snark level here and the personal attacks remind me of another forum where it is no longer even worth the time to try to read between the lines. The troll factor has risen sharply lately. Disappointing.

:clobber


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

cb32863 said:


> So a boat sails around some islands coastal cruising...... oh, the sailgasm I am having...... Seriously, you will cherry pick anything to justify your opinion and your purchase reasons..... Guess Hunter is the only boat out there that can do what's in this video.. Gonna sell my 235 cause of this video.... damn, I was stupid in my purchase decision.... So distraught now.....


Did I say any of those things cb? Look at the title of the thread. These young punks are obviously having a BLAST using a production SAILboat as transportation - and it's a great video. That's praiseworthy in my book.

You might be a _little_ hyper-sensitive.


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## SaltyMonkey (May 13, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> Did I say any of those things cb? Look at the title of the thread. These young punks are obviously having a BLAST using a production SAILboat as transportation - and it's a great video. That's praiseworthy in my book.
> 
> You might be a _little_ hyper-sensitive.


Niot at all smackypantz. I appreciate the newer hunter like anyone else (mebbe too much), and a catalina and the jeanneau and the beneteau (if the rudder post doesnt snap off and sink).


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## cb32863 (Oct 5, 2009)

smackdaddy said:


> Did I say any of those things cb? Look at the title of the thread. These young punks are obviously having a BLAST using a production SAILboat as transportation - and it's a great video. That's praiseworthy in my book.
> 
> You might be a _little_ hyper-sensitive.


Its called sarcasm. Obviously you are incapable of seeing that. Here is the definition for you. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sarcasm?s=t

Also in your post to the thread "Hunters are cool!" over at SA, where you lifted the video from, you said, and I quote;
_
"All of the above is why I bought a Hunter.

Eat your hearts out fellas."_

Trust me, there will be no heart eating in regards to this or anything else Hunter related..... Enjoy your 4kt SB.


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## goat (Feb 23, 2014)

smackdaddy said:


> Did I say any of those things cb? Look at the title of the thread. These young punks are obviously having a BLAST using a production SAILboat as transportation - and it's a great video. That's praiseworthy in my book.
> 
> You might be a _little_ hyper-sensitive.


I hadn't seen that video before, but I have hiked up to a few of those viewpoints they were biking at. Brings back good memories, thanks for posting. The boat we were on was a Northsea 34 pilothouse, a decent boat for the PNW. I don't know the difference between production and non production, so I'm not weighing in on this thread.

goat


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

cb32863 said:


> Its called sarcasm. Obviously you are incapable of seeing that. Here is the definition for you. Sarcasm | Define Sarcasm at Dictionary.com
> 
> Also in your post to the thread "Hunters are cool!" over at SA, where you lifted the video from, you said, and I quote;
> _
> ...


You seem a little on edge cb. I don't recall ever scruffing with you, so this all seems a little...shrill.

What exactly is wrong with what I posted on SA - and what exactly does it have to do with anything here? BTW - did *you* actually not see the "sarcasm" in the statement itself - being on SA and everything? Think for a moment and read your definition a few more times. You might get it eventually. And feel free to jump into that thread over on SA. I don't mind a bit. It might be fun.

Speaking of SA and, as you say, my "4KSB" - I'll leave you with this...

BENETEAU 235 - 195
HUNTER 40 - 96

Yeah, that's what it rates. You were saying?


----------



## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

uh.. guys... that 'Trail Hunter' video is very well done, and shows off our geography pretty well. But there's no real 'Hunter'(sailboat) connection here. The Hunter used is probably coincidental. The main rider's name is Hunter.

He has a lot of other equally good biking vids on the toob, btw.. really great stuff, well produced
(and sponsored by Specialty - Bikes, not Yachts )


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Faster said:


> uh.. guys... that 'Trail Hunter' video is very well done, and shows off our geography pretty well. But there's no real 'Hunter'(sailboat) connection here. The Hunter used is probably coincidental. The main rider's name is Hunter.
> 
> He has a lot of other equally good biking vids on the toob, btw.. really great stuff, well produced
> (and sponsored by Specialty - Bikes, not Yachts )


Wait - there was a dude riding bikes? I just saw the Hunter 375 Yacht rippin' it up out there. I'll have to watch that again.


----------



## ScottUK (Aug 16, 2009)

Nice video! I have been fortunate to have cruised and cycled in that area too. Two of my favourite modes of transportation for touring. For me, the touring aspect is why I own a boat and production boats do accomplish this very well. If touring was not the main feature I think I could satiate my sailing bug through racing on OPBs. 

Cb - I have also gotten some water time out in your neck of the woods which is another beautiful area.


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## jackdaw (Nov 21, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> You seem a little on edge cb. I don't recall ever scruffing with you, so it's seems a little...shrill.
> 
> What exactly is wrong with what I posted on SA - and what exactly does it have to do with anything here? Feel free to jump into that thread over on SA. I don't mind a bit. It might be fun.
> 
> ...


Smackers, Love ya buddy but pick on someone your own size. The First 235 is 22 feet long. This looks like a fairer fight.

First 235 195
Hunter 22 252

Hunter 40 96
First 40 27

Both a minute a mile faster pound for pound. To put it further perspective, the H40 is almost closer in rating to the 235 than it is to the same-length F40.

The First 40 is also a very comfortable cruising boat, that happens to also have won the Sidney-Hobart race. In praise of production boats indeed!


----------



## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

And the Carkeek 40 rates -45. What's the point?


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## jackdaw (Nov 21, 2010)

Shockwave said:


> And the Carkeek 40 rates -45. What's the point?


Sure..... custom carbon sled with a spouse-friendy interior....


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

jackdaw said:


> Smackers, Love ya buddy but pick on someone your own size. The First 235 is 22 feet long. This looks like a fairer fight.
> 
> First 235 195
> Hunter 22 252
> ...


Hey - if someone on a short sportboat is going to call _my_ boat a "4KSB", he makes himself fair game. It's not my problem he's got a short boat and will never be able to keep up with my "4KSB".

I fully understand the First 40s. They are incredible boats. I came _very, very_ close to buying one instead of my Hunter. I just couldn't get into the interior design of the thing. So, I'll happily pay that penalty for what I get in return. Even so, I don't feel the need to denigrate other 40s, 50s, etc. - that rate slower than my boat.

Sail and let sail.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

Shockwave said:


> And the Carkeek 40 rates -45. What's the point?


Is the Carteek 40 a 'production boat'? Second what an ugly piece of pizza slice... I'd say too heavy on the anchovies!


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

You guys sure found a way to turn this thread into just another extension of other production boat threads.

Who would have thought


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## jackdaw (Nov 21, 2010)

Don0190 said:


> You guys sure found a way to turn this thread into just another extension of other production boat threads.
> 
> Who would have thought


Did you actually believe it was ever anything else?? ;^)


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

At least the keels stay on the Carkeek. :|


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

guitarguy56 said:


> Is the Carteek 40 a 'production boat'? Second what an ugly piece of pizza slice... I'd say too heavy on the anchovies!


Looks like a Pogo or any version of boats being built today with a plumb bow and a big rear end. Lighter ones with big rigs are the fastest, the performance is tamped down as the weight goes up and the efficiency of the rig and foils goes down. Everyone seems to like these kinds of boats based on all I've read here. Pick your horsepower, price point and accommodations.... Pizza for all!


----------



## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Agree PHRF is a excellent system for judging boat speed in racing settings. Don't agree it's the be all and end all for judging duration of passages. Especially with typical cruisers crewing. Nor does it propose to judge ease, comfort or safety of such passagemaking. To review this number as just one factor is fine but to judge production boats or any boats passagemaking on this criteria alone is a very restricted view of things. Just take a BCC. A heavy 28' boat. A very slow boat c/w a Pogo or J boat. But still a fine passage maker. Think Don comment has merit and thread should return to OPs intent.
Similarly looking at rallies has its flaws. There maybe an evolution. At least with ARC and SDR. Although many do these rallies over and over some "evolve" doing it once or twice then with that experience behind them go it alone. There are others, perhaps the majority, who do these passages having never been in a rally of any sort. In short rally break downs of boat brands may not be as as informative as thought.


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

Out, this is a public forum to discuss boats. The opinions expressed are only opinions and the posters of said opinion should be able to express their opinions. The problem you run into is when a poster says something negative about a brand of boat and it's taken personal "I don't like bendytoys because..." then it all falls apart. This'll never end but if the buyer of said boat is confident in their purchase they should be able to simply laugh off another opinion or defend the brand/type/style... or ignore the opinion. If a poster is thin skinned maybe the forums aren't the right place for them to be.


----------



## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

Shockwave said:


> Out, this is a public forum to discuss boats. The opinions expressed are only opinions and the posters of said opinion should be able to express their opinions. The problem you run into is when a poster says something negative about a brand of boat and it's taken personal "I don't like bendytoys because..." then it all falls apart. This'll never end but if the buyer of said boat is confident in their purchase they should be able to simply laugh off another opinion or defend the brand/type/style... or ignore the opinion. If a poster is thin skinned maybe the forums aren't the right place for them to be.


Shock... You've had your share of bad mouthing Hunters on this forum including calling them 'crap'... now THAT'S personal to me and others since we own Hunters regardless of model... I've had nothing but good memories, sails, and happiness with my Hunter... So do I need any other boat at this time... NO... I'm sure there may be a Bene/Jenn/Cat or other production boat in my future and maybe not but this doesn't mean I have to denigrate them. Thick or thinned skin has nothing to do with it but we see you are too thin skinned to show off your boat as others have requested in the past!


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

guitarguy56 said:


> Shock... You've had your share of bad mouthing Hunters on this forum including calling them 'crap'... now THAT'S personal to me and others since we own Hunters regardless of model... I've had nothing but good memories, sails, and happiness with my Hunter... So do I need any other boat at this time... NO... I'm sure there may be a Bene/Jenn/Cat or other production boat in my future and maybe not but this doesn't mean I have to denigrate them. Thick or thinned skin has nothing to do with it but we see you are too thin skinned to show off your boat as others have requested in the past!


Put me on ignore, then my opinion won't matter to you will it?


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

outbound said:


> Similarly looking at rallies has its flaws. There maybe an evolution. At least with ARC and SDR. Although many do these rallies over and over some "evolve" doing it once or twice then with that experience behind them go it alone. There are others, perhaps the majority, who do these passages having never been in a rally of any sort. In short rally break downs of boat brands may not be as as informative as thought.


I think that depends on what you're looking for out of that data. If you take it on its face as Jack presented it - that these are the most popular brands in the ARC - then it's perfectly valid as-is. These boats are clearly out there doing it.

If, on the other hand, you want to impose another view on the data such as "the _'best'_ brands for X" - then, yeah, it may not tell you what you want to hear. Of course, I don't think that's really possible anyway. Too subjective.


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

guitarguy56 said:


> Is the Carteek 40 a 'production boat'? Second what an ugly piece of pizza slice... I'd say too heavy on the anchovies!


So it's OK for you to express your opinion about the Carkeek but it's not ok for another to say something about your brand of boat? We won't get far will we?


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

Shockwave said:


> Put me on ignore, then my opinion won't matter to you will it?


Shock I will not put anyone on this or any other forum on ignore... it simply means I can't take what others post... and doing so is simply childish... if one does not like what another post simply ignore it and move on... what was that saying "if you have nothing nice to say, say nothing at all'...


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## jackdaw (Nov 21, 2010)

Shockwave said:


> At least the keels stay on the Carkeek. :|


Perhaps.

But statistically Concorde was the safest plane on the planet, until one crashed. then it was the worst.

Beneteau makes more boats in a day then Carkeek will in an entire lifetime production run. Be careful with the statistics,


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

jackdaw said:


> Sure..... custom carbon sled with a spouse-friendy interior....


Yeah - a bit Spartan for my tastes when it comes to cruising. And though this video labels it thusly:

"SPOOKIE Carkeek 40, *without doubt the fastest 40 foot race boat on the planet!! *"






I would beg to differ when compared to this:






Granted, this is the GC32 (replacing the previous Extreme 40) - but it IS the same planet after all.

Then you have the AC45s, etc.

AND, the spousal accommodations are similar. Heh-heh.


----------



## jackdaw (Nov 21, 2010)

Shockwave said:


> Looks like a Pogo or any version of boats being built today with a plumb bow and a big rear end. Lighter ones with big rigs are the fastest, the performance is tamped down as the weight goes up and the efficiency of the rig and foils goes down. Everyone seems to like these kinds of boats based on all I've read here. Pick your horsepower, price point and accommodations.... Pizza for all!


I'd go anywhere in a Pogo 12.50.


----------



## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

Shockwave said:


> So it's OK for you to express your opinion about the Carkeek but it's not ok for another to say something about your brand of boat? We won't get far will we?


It is ugly to my eyes but never said it's construction was crap, it's fittings were cheap, etc... I don't like Valiants either but they are very good sailing vessels and well made (sorry Bob P.)... just aren't my cup of tea... is this the same as the denigrating you have posted in the past about Hunters?


----------



## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

Shockwave said:


> We won't get far will we?


Depends, since some of "we" are just internet boat snob trolls.


----------



## jackdaw (Nov 21, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> Yeah - a bit Spartan for my tastes when it comes to cruising. And though this video labels it thusly:
> 
> "SPOOKIE Carkeek 40, *without doubt the fastest 40 foot race boat on the planet!! *"


Just so we're clear, a C40 is NOT a production boat. Its a pure custom job from the design phase on. You make multiple trips to Spain and add your vision of your boat to the design. Then you hire a build manager to be your rep onsite at PCT in Germany while the boat is built. The someone to skipper it in a month of sea trials and sail fittings.

It is however, VERY FAST.


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

Guitar guy

I don't like the outward turned flange that Hunter uses. I think it's absolute crap that they use a 1.5" flange on a 49 footer. So, that's my opinion. Why don't you defend it? 

I don't like that an outward turned flange is vulnerable to damage and works (cracking bow to stern) as mentioned by Jeff. I think it's a crap design. Why don't you defend it? Tell me why it's not crap and tell me all the advantages. 

Here I'll help .. You see Shock it's like this, because Hunter uses this type of construction they can pull more hulls from an expensive mold so they save money which means I save money buying a less expensive boat. And since I'm not doing passages the robustness of an outward turned flange isn't of value to me. Why don't you try a few? Or is your skin to thin to defend yourself... ding ding ding calling Smack. I miss Jon, he seemed to be the only one who got it.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

smackdaddy said:


> I think that depends on what you're looking for out of that data. If you take it on its face as Jack presented it - that these are the most popular brands in the ARC - then it's .


I think to the closed minded bashers it doesn't matter if boats are in rally's and doing it. They will use the same argument of just because they are everywhere and got there somehow that it proves nothing.


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

jackdaw said:


> Just so we're clear, a C40 is NOT a production boat. Its a pure custom job from the design phase on. You make multiple trips to Spain and add your vision of your boat to the design. Then you hire a build manager to be your rep onsite at PCT in Germany while the boat is built. The someone to skipper it in a month of sea trials and sail fittings.


Then what the hell was shock's point again? Good lord! That guy is all over the freakin' map!

I do have to admit, the B235 does have a roomy interior for such a shorty...




























I especially like the Nav/Dump Station. Innovative integration if you ask me.


----------



## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

jackdaw said:


> Just so we're clear, a C40 is NOT a production boat. Its a pure custom job from the design phase on. You make multiple trips to Spain and add your vision of your boat to the design. Then you hire a build manager to be your rep onsite at PCT in Germany while the boat is built. The someone to skipper it in a month of sea trials and sail fittings.
> 
> It is however, VERY FAST.


Looks like a production boat to me..C40 MKII | Carkeek Design Partners

Not really my cup of tea today but if I was 30 again, yea, it'd be a boat I would consider.


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

jackdaw said:


> I'd go anywhere in a Pogo 12.50.


Then you've found the boat that works for you. Does anyone else's opinion matter?


----------



## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

Shockwave said:


> I don't like the outward turned flange that Hunter uses. I think it's absolute crap that they use a 1.5" flange on a 49 footer. So, that's my opinion. Why don't you defend it?
> 
> I don't like that an outward turned flange is vulnerable to damage and works (cracking bow to stern) as mentioned by Jeff. I think it's a crap design. Why don't you defend it? Tell me why it's not crap and tell me all the advantages.


I think this shows how ignorant you are really. I got a good chance this year to take a hard look at that flange this year after the yard ran mine into something on haul out. All that they managed to do was pull some of the rub rail off, the flange had no damage at all as it is very protected by the rub rail around it.

But if it had gotten damaged it could have been worked on without tearing the boat apart.

So yes I feel that Hunter does that as it lowers production costs. But it also results in a flange that is fully accessible. Just how do you access the flange and bolts on an inward flange?

BTW - I don't expect any useful reply from you as as an internet expert I'm sue you have more knowledge of Hunter construction than owners do.


----------



## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

smackdaddy said:


> Then what the hell was shock's point again? Good lord! That guy is all over the freakin' map!


I don't know how you say that? I've gone into detail of exactly what and why I call something crap. Mismatched threads used by Bene for below the waterline through hull?skin fittings (they're not seacocks). Maybe you can defend it by stating you will replace them every 5 years? Maybe that's a trade off you're willing to make? Defend it.

Maybe you're fine with pan boats, how do you check the bond? I think keels falling off is crap and the bonds between are skin and pan are worrisome. How do you check them? Did the recent loss of the Bene 45 occur because the hull/pan failed when they hit? They must not have thought it was to bad since they decided to carry on.

What verb do you prefer? Crap or Shocking?

Special investigation: Why do keel failures happen and what can we do to prevent it? ? Yachting World


----------



## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

Don0190 said:


> I think this shows how ignorant you are really. I got a good chance this year to take a hard look at that flange this year after the yard ran mine into something on haul out. All that they managed to do was pull some of the rub rail off, the flange had no damage at all as it is very protected by the rub rail around it.
> 
> But if it had gotten damaged it could have been worked on without tearing the boat apart.
> 
> ...


Maybe review some of Jeff's comments. I'll leave you to do you own investigation. :eek


----------



## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

Shockwave said:


> Maybe review some of Jeff's comments. I'll leave you to do you own investigation. :eek


Maybe I don't need to review anyone's comments since I have direct knowledge. This makes me worlds ahead of you as an internet troll expert!


----------



## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

Shockwave said:


> Guitar guy
> 
> I don't like the outward turned flange that Hunter uses. I think it's absolute crap that they use a 1.5" flange on a 49 footer. So, that's my opinion. Why don't you defend it?
> 
> ...


Huh? Don't know what Hunter uses on the 49 footer and sure their structural engineers and analysts (stress & FEM) are far better at it than you I guess... but let's play it some...

Attached is a photo of the toe rail flange of what you speak... this is what I have on my Hunter (circled in red)... as you can surmise that aluminum extrusion is by far the strongest section (stress wise) than all the other flanges... Why would any other manufacturer choose any different in the construction? I attach many blocks, lines, etc. to my toe rail flange... doesn't leak and from a structural standpoint strong! Now... Why would I think what you have to say about toe rails or flanges or deck to hull joint have any bearing on how well I feel my craft is constructed? Why do you miss Jon??? You need him to vindicate what you think you know?


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

Sure, how do you increase flange length and thickness with an outward turned flange? On a 50 footer with an inward turned flange it's possible to have a 5" flange and it can be much thicker. An outward turned flange on bigger boats is weak because they can't be big enough or thickness enough. Understand, this is all a spill over from the "limits" thread. And yeah, I miss Jon.


----------



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Shockwave said:


> Sure, how do you increase flange length and thickness with an outward turned flange? On a 50 footer with an inward turned flange it's possible to have a 5" flange and it can be much thicker. An outward turned flange on bigger boats is weak because they can't be big enough or thickness enough. Understand, this is all a spill over from the "limits" thread. And yeah, I miss Jon.


Which modern boats have a "thick", 5" inward flange? And what do you mean by "thick"?

I mean, you _could_ have an 18" flange that's 4" thick. That's not really saying anything though. I mean if you want "tough" you could have a steel BS Yacht.

For example, when you say this:



> ...And since I'm not doing passages the robustness of an outward turned flange isn't of value to me...


Are you really trying to get someone to believe that outward flanges can't handle "passages"? Really?

That's ridiculous.

The problem is that calling something "crap" is easy. The hard part is making your case for it. You're not doing a great job of that.


----------



## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

Smack, how do you increase flange face when the flange is outward? How do you increase flange thickness when the flange is outward? It's easy with an inward turned flange because it's hidden. As the boat gets bigger so does the flange, how do you hide that? Or are you ok giving up strength? Crap?


----------



## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Shock makes good points but returning to gist of the thread. Production boats clearly do deserve praise. They work as effective cruisers for many people. Folks do do passages on them. 
Don is right we have a choice. Either allow this thread to continue the discussion of the limits thread or focus solely on the benefits of mainstream production boat of which there are many. 
I'm good with either one. If it's to be focusing on praising production boats that's fine. One could start another thread pointing out the benefits of stick built boats or one offs or exclusive purpose built racers or passage makers or foilers or metal or what have you. 
Shock these are the boats most people buy. Sharing your knowledge and experience may help inform others. Seems you and I did not choose one of these boats but that's not to say they are "crap". Admittedly I agree there is a better way to do that joint. Look at how it's done on a PSC or many stick built boats. But the Hunter way has worked and they maintain their market share. Personally was surprised about Bob Ps comments on how another production boat the V40 was put together. Again not orthodoxy but effective and free of frequent recalls.
Personally remain very confused about exactly what a production boat is. Does it include cold molded wood? CF/foam, strip plank when multiple hulls done like the Westermans ? series Al like Garcia or Boreal? High end boats like the B50? Are concordias production boats? Think they were considered such in their day. This conversation would be different if limited to only grp core pan boats.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Shockwave said:


> Smack, how do you increase flange face when the flange is outward? How do you increase flange thickness when the flange is outward? It's easy with an inward turned flange because it's hidden. As the boat gets bigger so does the flange, how do you hide that? Or are you ok giving up strength? Crap?


You didn't answer my question(s).


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

What question is that Smack? You want to approve all construction methodology and design as Cat A because a builder says so? Not me, the builder lets profits and market drive them into questionable deliverables, (crap). How is it possible to build a 1.5" outward turned flange on a 50 footer that's strong enough for all oceans in all conditions? Is that their claim? 

Out, we've owned many boats, some were pan boats, some were stick built, some were cheaply built (crap) that required lots of work on our part to make acceptable. We even refused delivery of a new 35 footer because the build quality was crap. 

I've been around boats a lotta years, fixing them and sailing them. Ergonomics are better but build quality is worse, some of this stuff is real crap.


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## RainDog (Jun 9, 2009)

outbound said:


> Personally was surprised about Bob Ps comments on how another production boat the V40 was put together. Again not orthodoxy but effective and free of frequent recalls.


Where was this?



outbound said:


> Personally remain very confused about exactly what a production boat is.


Now that is a topic worth discussing. To me the only reasonable definition is a mass-produced boat. As opposed to a semi-custom, custom, or one-off boat.

However these threads keep driving to reduce "production boat" to just B/H/C and a few more. Never understood why. Some people just seem to have a fixation on the brands that have been the most successful in the market place and seem to feel the need to differentiate them from less successful brands.

In the spirit of exploring that trend I thought it would be interesting to try to come up with a definition that limited "production boat" to just the boats these threads seem to refer to without actually mentioning brands. I took a stab at it in post #29 just for the fun of it.

Really I think you would have a hard time coming up with a meaningful definition of "production boat" or "blue water boat" that could stand any real scrutiny. However it would be fun to try. I challenge anyone interested to try, because I think it would be fun.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Shockwave said:


> What question is that Smack?


The ones I asked above. And you still haven't answered them.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Shock I agree with you. In choosing my last boat beyond personally having the experience of 35+ years of boat ownership the most important input was from folks working in marine yards and pro captains followed by owners when they are bitching about something, followed by several marine insurance agents, boat brokers, surveyors and admiralty lawyers I ve known socially. Print articles, reviews, ads, boat show presentations by salesmen way down the list. But would I be happy on what S calls a production boat. Yup. I'm happy just to be on the water.

Thank you Dog. You get it.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

RainDog said:


> Some people just seem to have a fixation on the brands that have been the most successful in the market place and seem to feel the need to differentiate them from less successful brands.


This statement would probably be a good starting place. Just the definition of "successful" is going to take months.

And, I really think this thread should be left where it started. If people want to take issue with production boats, there are PLENTY of other places to do it....as it has been going on for years.


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## RainDog (Jun 9, 2009)

smackdaddy said:


> This statement would probably be a good starting place. Just the definition of "successful" is going to take months.
> 
> And, I really think this thread should be left where it started. If people want to take issue with production boats, there are PLENTY of other places to do it....as it has been going on for years.


But that just begs the question again, what exactly IS a "production boat"?


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## RainDog (Jun 9, 2009)

smackdaddy said:


> This statement would probably be a good starting place. Just the definition of "successful" is going to take months.


By successful, I just mean purely units sold, or total revenue. Both with work out pretty close I imagine.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

York, the OP of this thread, listed Benes and Hunters specifically. From there, production boats have traditionally also included (by those who enjoy putting them down as coastal-only boats) Catalina - and, to some extent, Jeanneaus. Bavarias are newer to the game - but now seem to be in that mix as well.

So, you've got BeneJeneBavaHunterLinas. Yes, that are TONS more older brands (mostly defunct) that you could pretzel into this mix if you wanted to (from Irwin to Gulfstar to O'Day to whatever) - but the clearest way to discuss these issues as they relate to the ability to sail where-ever you want to go (minus the high latitudes) is to focus on those brands that are STILL making boats. Why? Because they are setting standards for modern cruising and passage making. And because you're seeing some very blurred lines between these newer production boats and newer traditional "blue water" brands in terms of features and methods (much to the chagrin of the "blue water crowd").

Here's a hint: If someone is arguing for features or methods that are no longer even used in the newer "blue water" brands, there might be a flaw in their thinking.


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## RainDog (Jun 9, 2009)

smackdaddy said:


> So, you've got BeneJeneBavaHunterLinas.


But what distinguishes these brands, as a group, from say a JBoat or a Hallberg Rassy? Other than just naming brands, what does "production boat" as the OP is using it really mean? How do we define it without just listing brands?


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## RainDog (Jun 9, 2009)

Just to clarify, I am not being coy. I am really curious. Perhaps the answer is just a "production boat" as the OP is using it is a boat most people thing is of low quality? I am genuinely curious what you think distinguishes these brands from others. As I pointed out above, I tried to take a stab at defining it, but even I think my definition was lame.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Or X yachts or pogo or Salona or italia or Hylas or Passport or Outbound or any series production boat still being made. Is it price? If so where's the line. PSC? IP? Morris? Is it number of units? Is it nature of construction?

What is a production boat? I truly am confused and not being obtuse or coy. In my mind smacks personal boat has little relationship to current Hunters as a international harvester scout to a current jeep renegade.


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

Smack, you've not answered any of my questions. And if you don't understand what a flange face is or why you cannot increase laminate thickness with on an outward turned flange then we're not going to get anywhere.


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## Scotty C-M (Aug 14, 2013)

I've always felt that production yachts is short for Mass Production yachts:

Mass production is the production of large amounts of standardized products, including and especially on assembly lines.

Large amounts of standardized products: I think about 20 hulls with the same interiors deck layouts and rigs, sets the bar pretty close. Maybe a few more or less if you want. As far as the assembly line goes, think about common practices. Moulds, cabinetry stations, paint booths. I took my woodshop class (I was the teacher) over to the Santa Cruz Yachts factory. It was a great field trip!! Yes, they had all those things. Look at the "How It's Made" program showing the Catalina yachts. 



 Yep, looks like an assembly line there too. What I would not count are the boats built by individual builders from a set of plans. Like an El Toro built by thousands of different people. But the ones built in a "factory" - those I would call "production" El Toros. Production yachts can be old or new, big or small, cruisers or day sailors or racers, high quality or low.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

RainDog said:


> But what distinguishes these brands, as a group, from say a JBoat or a Hallberg Rassy? Other than just naming brands, what does "production boat" as the OP is using it really mean? How do we define it without just listing brands?


Again, I'm not really the one that defined this list. As you've already alluded to, it has been more defined by the detractors of these boats over the years. So you'll need to ask them. I honestly don't care all that much.

Maybe you should start a thread on it.


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## Scotty C-M (Aug 14, 2013)

How about a great production racing yacht?

I've had the chance to race as crew abord a friends Sydney 38. There are two of them in the Santa Cruz harbor. I've seen a bunch of them in the SF Bay area. Check them out: Overview: Sydney 38 One Design by Sydney Yachts They are fast and responsive. They also look totally cool. Rather challenging to race, with lots of tweakers and adjustments and other racy things!! One day we were going downwind in about 15 knots. We were in the middle of a beam sandwich of three boats. All with our spinnakers up. As one, we all three boats jibed the spinnakers - at about 15 feet apart! Spray flying, boats hardening up, lots of adrenaline. That's a lot of boat going really fast where no one better mess up. These boats take a hell of a beating, and hold up really well. I can definitely give them "Praise of (this) Production Boat".


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Look like cool boats for the draft unchallenged Scotty. Interesting to see outside the box a lot of US sailors place themselves in. Couldn't figure out USD dollar costs.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Couldn't help but think of this place this past Sat night at dinner. We ran into friends of ours at the marina, while we were all knocking snow off our boat covers and fiddling around. We decided to go out for dinner and, naturally, we all get into our commissioning plans, upgrade ideas, cruising destinations for the summer etc. We both rock production boats, without question.

After a seemingly endless list of alcohol induced (Break Out Another Thousand) ideas, our friend adds that he is replacing some OEM plastic parts on his boat with aftermarket stainless steel. 

His wife, starting to grow weary of the list of expenses, immediately says to him..... "you can replace everything on the boat, but it's still going to be a Hunter"

 That hurt.


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

Minnewaska said:


> Couldn't help but think of this place this past Sat night at dinner. We ran into friends of ours at the marina, while we were all knocking snow off our boat covers and fiddling around. We decided to go out for dinner and, naturally, we all get into our commissioning plans, upgrade ideas, cruising destinations for the summer etc. We both rock production boats, without question.
> 
> After a seemingly endless list of alcohol induced (Break Out Another Thousand) ideas, our friend adds that he is replacing some OEM plastic parts on his boat with aftermarket stainless steel.
> 
> ...


Very similar to something said in the CCA refurb thread. Except about older production boats. And Pintos.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

RainDog said:


> But what distinguishes these brands


I feel that a lot of it comes down to finish. Lower volume "production" boats tend to have a nicer finish and more features (more expense to do). They also tend to be more "hand built" (more expense to to do) not because that may result in a better fit, but because the lower volume does not justify the cost to invest in the tooling to use more advanced methods.

I also feel that some lower production boats have nicer features not because they really were a great advantage far as the boat goes, but because it helps support the price of the boat while not being a big adder compared to the total high price. Kind like how you can get a fit out Toyota that becomes also the same price as the equivalent Lexus in price.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Don think a huge amount of cost is labor and upgrading unseen components. Yes you are right some of this goes into cosmetics but much where it is not boat show obvious. The issue is to get a monolithic structure that will last decades. Yes, infusion techniques and appropriate use of cores stiffen the hull but so does the way stringers are done and bulkheads/furniture glassed in. The grid techniques save labor as does the drop in prefabbed modules. There is a difference between integral tanks and tanks resting on tabs. There is a difference between oversized tinned wiring running to boards exceeding ABYC standards and fully occupied boards with no free breakers. Theres a difference in how wire connections are done. There's a difference in labor and material costs in how deck hull joint are done appendages made and attached, deck hardware mounted. The list goes on and on. The more I hang out with yard workers the longer the list becomes.
If pan liner boats are built in total accordance to what N.A. and engineers spec'd they are strong good boats. But a spot of poor adherence, bad wetting out, bad pot of adhesive or resin, poor vacuum bag, variance in environment has more potential impact and less likelihood of being picked up in liner boats than stick built. Yes the big houses have good quality control and with series runs can refine their manufacturing techniques but where was the hull under your feet in that process. 
The less dependent the builder is on skilled shipwrights and fewer hours spent on a boat the more cost competive the final product will be. So the original post is spot on. You get a huge bang for your buck with a Bene or like boat but say what you will it is not a stick built boat and that is not due to cosmetics.
Prior posts tried to define "production ". To my mind one of the dividers given current construction would be liner/pan v. stick built not just cost. By this criteria some of the Polish boats and all of the metal boats would be considered stick built as would J, X etc.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Minnewaska said:


> Couldn't help but think of this place this past Sat night at dinner. We ran into friends of ours at the marina, while we were all knocking snow off our boat covers and fiddling around. We decided to go out for dinner and, naturally, we all get into our commissioning plans, upgrade ideas, cruising destinations for the summer etc. We both rock production boats, without question.
> 
> After a seemingly endless list of alcohol induced (Break Out Another Thousand) ideas, our friend adds that he is replacing some OEM plastic parts on his boat with aftermarket stainless steel.
> 
> ...


Shockwave is a woman? Wow.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

outbound;3325625 To my mind one of the dividers given current construction would be liner/pan v. stick built not just cost. [/QUOTE said:


> I wouldn't agree at all because in your mind you are assuming that a liner/pan construction is weaker and I just don't accept that. In fact I would argue that a non-liner boat is weaker which is why it needs all those stringers etc.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

Minnewaska said:


> After a seemingly endless list of alcohol induced (Break Out Another Thousand) ideas, our friend adds that he is replacing some OEM plastic parts on his boat with aftermarket stainless steel.
> 
> His wife, starting to grow weary of the list of expenses, immediately says to him..... "you can replace everything on the boat, but it's still going to be a Hunter"
> 
> That hurt.


Somehow I'm calling BS on this... just another spit on the fire... :wink


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

outbound said:


> Don think a huge amount of cost is labor and upgrading unseen components. Yes you are right some of this goes into cosmetics but much where it is not boat show obvious. The issue is to get a monolithic structure that will last decades. Yes, infusion techniques and appropriate use of cores stiffen the hull but so does the way stringers are done and bulkheads/furniture glassed in. The grid techniques save labor as does the drop in prefabbed modules. There is a difference between integral tanks and tanks resting on tabs. There is a difference between oversized tinned wiring running to boards exceeding ABYC standards and fully occupied boards with no free breakers. Theres a difference in how wire connections are done. There's a difference in labor and material costs in how deck hull joint are done appendages made and attached, deck hardware mounted. The list goes on and on. The more I hang out with yard workers the longer the list becomes.
> If pan liner boats are built in total accordance to what N.A. and engineers spec'd they are strong good boats. But a spot of poor adherence, bad wetting out, bad pot of adhesive or resin, poor vacuum bag, variance in environment has more potential impact and less likelihood of being picked up in liner boats than stick built. Yes the big houses have good quality control and with series runs can refine their manufacturing techniques but where was the hull under your feet in that process.
> The less dependent the builder is on skilled shipwrights and fewer hours spent on a boat the more cost competive the final product will be. So the original post is spot on. You get a huge bang for your buck with a Bene or like boat but say what you will it is not a stick built boat and that is not due to cosmetics.
> Prior posts tried to define "production ". To my mind one of the dividers given current construction would be liner/pan v. stick built not just cost. By this criteria some of the Polish boats and all of the metal boats would be considered stick built as would J, X etc.


Out... WE get it... You have an Outbound untouchable for any of us comment against it... It is the holy grail of sailboats and no other sailboat will compete against yours! You are happy with it... but how does this compare to our production sailboats and WHY do you continue to compare it to them? Like comparing your Rolls Royce to our Hondas and doing it with gusto! :eek


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

RainDog said:


> Just to clarify, I am not being coy. I am really curious. Perhaps the answer is just a "production boat" as the OP is using it is a boat most people thing is of low quality? I am genuinely curious what you think distinguishes these brands from others. As I pointed out above, I tried to take a stab at defining it, but even I think my definition was lame.


Raindog... last night I spent some considerable time looking for those elusive numbers and data on how many boats Hunter has produced in order to come up with some idea of the 'mass production' details and I found that in 2000' Hunter had it's most highest output of over 2000 boats a year... a year I said... so we can deduce from this in 1999 and earlier and from 2000 and up to when Marlow bought out Hunter produced lower numbers but given this we can say they produced more sailboats then some of the other manufacturers outside of Cat/Bene/Jenn... not sure how many Pearson boats are out there but they too seem prolific... How does this compare to the other manufactures who produced boats such as Hinckley's, Outbound's, Moody's, etc...

Getting the data from these manufacturers is the only way to know how the 'mass production' compares to all others.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

G wasn't the intention. I've owned production and have been very proud of them. They have served me well and were great fun. I fully agree you get more bang for the buck as there are clear costs savings with series production. I agree the big houses have r and d money not available to small run builders. They also can have multiple offerings to fit different needs. They have deeper pockets so can push the design envelop more and absorb a hit should a particular offering not find a market. Yes there are small innovative houses but in recent years it's the big houses that rule the roost.

I expect the stick built small houses will continue to decline and leave the market. There will be very few small houses, the big production boat builders offering multiple levels of build and a few one off builders .

The prior post was aimed at education not mine is bigger than yours. I simply thought Dons impression costs differences were a sole reflection of cosmetics to be wrong. Perhaps with Morris, friendship and the like but not for lower end boats like X, IP, Hylas, HR, and mine. I continue to think cosmetics is not where the major money goes.
I know the details in boat construction that are important to me. My current boat does not have all those details. Some other boats have more some less. You do what makes sense for you. If you want to know what I would want I'd be pleased to list but this is idiosyncratic so I thought not of general interest. If you like to please do. I'd be interested in your thoughts.


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## Scotty C-M (Aug 14, 2013)

I agree with DonO. Liner/pan construction is a design decision. You (Outbound) may not like it, others disagree. It would be interesting to discuss that idea, with some data. If you want to have that discussion, perhaps you might want to start a thread on it. 

While there is an overlap between design and production, it still seems logical to me that "Production Boats" refers to the production process, not primarily to the design process.


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

guitarguy56 said:


> Raindog... last night I spent some considerable time looking for those elusive numbers and data on how many boats Hunter has produced in order to come up with some idea of the 'mass production' details and I found that in 2000' Hunter had it's most highest output of over 2000 boats a year... a year I said... so we can deduce from this in 1999 and earlier and from 2000 and up to when Marlow bought out Hunter produced lower numbers but given this we can say they produced more sailboats then some of the other manufacturers outside of Cat/Bene/Jenn... not sure how many Pearson boats are out there but they too seem prolific... How does this compare to the other manufactures who produced boats such as Hinckley's, Outbound's, Moody's, etc...
> 
> Getting the data from these manufacturers is the only way to know how the 'mass production' compares to all others.


The data is probably available, but not to us. I saved this post from 2008 because I found it so illuminating.

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/general-discussion-sailing-related/41284-sailboat-business.html

The link in post is dead now, but it was from an industry publication that required a subscription for anything more than a summary (which fortunately for posterity, Cam included in his original post). The sailboat industry is really not much more than a cottage industry, especially when compared to the power boat side of things.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Want to put this to rest. Seems when I praise the cf cutters which have multiple features I don't have and would want there's no blow back. When what I think is an absurd statement that the money is solely cosmetic there is. What gives I can gore my own ox but not your? 
M you're right. Which brings back the very good question what's a production boats. Personally have seen some extremely high tech, gorgeous boats coming out of Bene 's custom shop. Boats to lust after and dream about.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

mstern said:


> The data is probably available, but not to us. I saved this post from 2008 because I found it so illuminating.
> 
> http://www.sailnet.com/forums/general-discussion-sailing-related/41284-sailboat-business.html
> 
> The link in post is dead now, but it was from an industry publication that required a subscription for anything more than a summary (which fortunately for posterity, Cam included in his original post). The sailboat industry is really not much more than a cottage industry, especially when compared to the power boat side of things.


Good reading and thanks for the link... of course as all threads it drifted into eye, candy, beer, and powerboats/jet skis, etc...


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

Interesting article regarding sailboat production numbers for 2015:



> North American sailboat production last year hit its highest level since 2008. But the roughly 7,000 sailboats produced still lagged far behind the 22,000-plus made in 2000, surveys show.


And to believe the industry is robust is foolsh:



> No one expects a quick return to heady days of the 1970s, when 12 million Americans sailed at least once a year.
> 
> "If we could get only 50,000 more people sailing [regularly in North America every year]," said Sailing World's Helme, "that would make a real difference to the industry."


Sailboat market recovering from recession but faces headwinds - Sun Sentinel


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

Interesting statistics for 2014 in recreational boating in general but some highlights on sailboats.



> This sampling of data is shared widely across the industry and with the media to provide a snapshot of the scope of the U.S. recreational boating industry.
> 
> • U.S. expenditures on boats, engines, accessories, and related costs totaled $35.4 billion in 2014.
> • Annual retail sales of new boats, engines & marine accessories in the U.S. totaled $16.4 billion in 2014.
> ...


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

guitarguy56 said:


> Somehow I'm calling BS on this... just another spit on the fire... :wink


Irony.

My post was not intended to inflame, nor did it inflame. Many liked it, just for it's humor. It is a true story.

Yet, you did spit on the fire, by calling a post BS. Did it feel good?


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

smackdaddy said:


> Shockwave is a woman? Wow.


I expert women to be very upset over this.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

Shockwave said:


> Out, this is a public forum to discuss boats. The opinions expressed are only opinions and the posters of said opinion should be able to express their opinions.


Agreed. The problem is when people confuse fact with opinion, and worse when they think their own opinion is worth more than a fact. *sigh* Saying "the fact is" does not turn an opinion into a fact. In addition, not all opinions have the same weight. For example, when Bob Perry says "I think that ..." (<- clue, an opinion follows) it is worth more than someone parroting something they read but didn't understand in a book or magazine. Not everyone gets a blue ribbon and not every opinion has equal merit. Yelling and shrieking does not increase the value of an opinion (regardless of what American politics might lead you to believe).



Scotty C-M said:


> I've always felt that production yachts is short for Mass Production yachts


Maybe. It is good to agree on vocabulary. There are boats I consider to be production that are still low volume. Sometimes you are paying for cachet, or getting the value of economies of scale. I haven't looked up the numbers but I suspect Island Packet pushes out more boats than Hallberg Rassy. Island Packet does some woodwork by hand that Hallberg Rassy does with numerically controlled machines. The HR woodwork is arguably nicer than that from IP - HR puts their effort into finishing which is easier and more repeatable because the parts are all identical. Is an HR better than an IP? Depends on what you are going to do with it. In my head they are both semi-custom production boats.

We haven't agreed on the vocabulary have we?



outbound said:


> Don think a huge amount of cost is labor and upgrading unseen components. Yes you are right some of this goes into cosmetics but much where it is not boat show obvious.


I agree. But does that make a boat production or not? If a Ford or Chevrolet is a production car does that mean that a BMW or Mercedes-Benz or Rolls Royce is not? I don't know.



outbound said:


> If pan liner boats are built in total accordance to what N.A. and engineers spec'd they are strong good boats. But a spot of poor adherence, bad wetting out, bad pot of adhesive or resin, poor vacuum bag, variance in environment has more potential impact and less likelihood of being picked up in liner boats than stick built.


Agreed. You left out the part about trying to fish a wire or cable between a liner and the hull and secure it properly.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

I'm with SVSuspicious.

Things can get very nebulous when you start to generalize around nebulous labels.


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## Rob Patterson (Oct 22, 2015)

bobperry said:


> I'm with SVSuspicious.
> 
> Things can get very nebulous when you start to generalize around nebulous labels.


good line!

putting a stake in the ground doesn't have merit when the ground is quicksand.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

bobperry said:


> I'm with SVSuspicious.


Hear-hear.

"SVSuspicious" is exactly right.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Great post Dave. Can't believe we all agree. Going to mark it on my calendar. 

Once again "production" boat is a nebulous concept. These threads keep getting hung up on this as some continue to play chess - others checkers and then there are the bridge players.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

outbound said:


> Once again "production" boat is a nebulous concept. These threads keep getting hung up on this as some continue to play chess - others checkers and then there are the bridge players.


Not really. It seems those of us with "production" boats know we have them.

YOU don't have one.

I don't know why it always has to be so hard.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Don- maybe it's like pornography. " you know it when you see it". But I don't think so. I don't think it's expense. X yachts, Passports, HRs and IPs are more money than mine. Morris, oysters and Hinckley are ~ twice as much. 
I don't think it's brand. Beneteau has a cadre of excellent N.A.s and craftsmen. As long as you are writing good checks you can have pretty much what you want. As Bob pointed out same with PSC.

Others have already said on this thread pan liner v. stick built may not be a good divide. IP is now using liners. 
Numbers in a series maybe a good divide but where's the line? There are over 60 sisterships for me with more to come. Were Valiants production boats? There were > 350 of the 40/42s built. They occupied the same market niche as mine in their day. At the same price point. Or the PSC 44. Still in production at more money.

So Don where's the divide? Please articulate the particulars. Do you do it by cost?, flexibility in modifications?, construction technique?, can CF, wood epoxy or metal boats be production built?

In my mind I do have a production boat. It's offered with a defined option sheet and two basic interiors. You check off a list and they build one for you. You can ask for some minor modifications but no changes to basic molds or tooling or major components. Bob's current clients do not have a checklist. Rather a blank piece of paper.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

outbound said:


> So Don where's the divide? Please articulate the particulars.


50 boats a year of a given model.

Hows that?


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## Scotty C-M (Aug 14, 2013)

Seems simple. Production refers to the production method. Then look it up in a dictionary. That's where I got this (from my previous post #151). It works:

"Mass production is the production of large amounts of standardized products, including and especially on assembly lines." Cars, boats, widgets, whatever.

By the way, looking at this definition, most modern builds are production yachts. Come to think of it, that's probably been true since the 60's.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

50 is interesting. Then none of the boats I've owned are production given I believe there were years of less then 50. That's includes several Cape Dories, a Tayana 37 and a PSC 34.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

Minnewaska said:


> Irony.
> 
> My post was not intended to inflame, nor did it inflame. Many liked it, just for it's humor. It is a true story.
> 
> Yet, you did spit on the fire, by calling a post BS. Did it feel good?


Yes... your post or the portion I quoted was to inflame and get the Hunter haters riled up... and YES I feel as good posting what I said as you did posting your non-humor!


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

Scotty C-M said:


> Seems simple. Production refers to the production method. Then look it up in a dictionary. That's where I got this (from my previous post #151). It works:
> 
> "Mass production is the production of large amounts of standardized products, including and especially on assembly lines." Cars, boats, widgets, whatever.
> 
> By the way, looking at this definition, most modern builds are production yachts. Come to think of it, that's probably been true since the 60's.


Scotty... Yes production today is almost anything you buy unless you know it is being handmade (luthier guitars, Steinway pianos, RR cars, Ferrari's, etc.)... but some production is half/half... I've been through most of Boeing's production lines observing some of their builds... while some parts are 'mass produced' being installed on the aircraft the hand part of production is done of course by skilled aviation mechanics and assemblers... this would be true of boats... it is the hand picking and placement along with the designers skill that to me makes one production boat better than others... be it that HR, Oyster, Hunter, Cat, or 'you place your name her'.... smaller builds get better treatment since not many get built per year... same in any business... Gulfstream Airplanes here do not put out many planes a month so the aircraft is better built and quality is maintained much better than say Boeing/Airbus... this is the same in any industry... been in the industry 35 years... so I think there is some truth to that.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

So I think I understand the general gist of what Smackie means when he uses his term but think there should be a better term to define it as some would include many builders not on his abbreviation looking at the world market. Also many boats from those builders not satisfying his intentions. Can we come up with a more descriptive but closely defined term?


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

Don, it seems according to the story Out told, the wife of said Hunter owner is embarrassed by their choice of boat? How does your wife feel about this?


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

outbound said:


> Can we come up with a more descriptive but closely defined term?


Sure - go start another thread on the subject and knock yourself out. This thread is for praising BeneJeneBavaHansHunterLinas.


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

Production shops have done a number of things to reduce costs. Take Catalina as an example. They use shoe box construction, grids, liners, prefabricated components and glue components in rather then tabbing them. Does this make a stronger boat? No, but it's probably strong enough for the way most people use their boats. Did it make a less expensive boat? Yes but at the cost of being able to repair it daily and with certainty.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

Shockwave said:


> Don, it seems according to the story Out told, the wife of said Hunter owner is embarrassed by their choice of boat? How does your wife feel about this?


Shock... I'm SHOCKED you didn't use your favorite word 'crap' in this post! :devil


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

I do like that word, saves lots of time describing some of what's being built.


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## MarcStAug (Nov 2, 2014)

Isn't the *real* praise for the "BeneJeneBavaHansHunterLinas" the simple fact that they have placed sailing/cruising within reach of the working (wo)man instead of it being just a rich man's sport/hobby? Never would I have imagined I would be budgeting $100K for a boat/home (realizing it will not be a new boat). All well and good if you can afford an expensive one-off boat, but isn't it like what Ford did for cars, that BeneJeneBavaHansHunterLinas are doing for sailing in some small part?


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

Marc, I agree with that. Well said.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Marc - I think that's a huge part of it for sure.

But I think the highest praise for BeneJeneBavaHansHunterLinas is that now there are so many others desperately trying to get their boats included in the list too.

I'll take it under advisement.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Think the boat is the price of admission. Think staying in the playpen varies only by the the size of the boat. Even then incrementally as many expenses ( food, clothes, airplanes, fees etc. ) are fixed having nothing to do with boat model.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Smack. Just wondering who you think wants to join? Many of us have no interest. My only interest until April is finishing setting things up so I can sail the big blue forever.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

Boat is not the price of admission... in my sailing/yacht club... I don't participate in the regattas or races due to the big egos in the club that think they are better racers or that their boat is better than yours... trust me that in the lineup my Hunter is far far better than theirs not only in pristine condition but sail ready condition as well... It is simply stunning to hear their egos ramp up after several beers and drinks as much as we hear here... Sorry but those who believe the child's play at the sandbox ends there is foolish... We are all sailors, we all own sailboats of one type or another... and yet we simply can't get along because of our egos... Now that is 'crap'!


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

guitarguy56 said:


> Yes... your post or the portion I quoted was to inflame and get the Hunter haters riled up... and YES I feel as good posting what I said as you did posting your non-humor!


Seems you're the only one that got twisted. An unintended upside, as far as I'm concerned.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

Minnewaska said:


> Seems you're the only one that got twisted. An unintended upside, as far as I'm concerned.


Minnie... You need to sail your Jenny more and less on the forums... I mean that is why you have such a large boat right? Obviously you need more margaritas as your signature indicates for redemption of your ego... you'd fit in well in my yacht club!


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

Awfully defensive guitar guy. Why?


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

Smack, I don't think there is a rush to join the group. Swan, HR, Grand Soliel don't want to be Hunter. There is no rush by quality builders to be at the bottom.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Please note I did not post the hunter wife story. Actually have no issues with hunters. 

Please note the cost to keep any boat of roughly the same size in Bristol condition allowing for things like exterior wood and complexion of infill (AC, water maker, etc) is about the same. 

Think this is getting silly. There is much to praise about production boats. Why not do that?


Unfortunate some use the the term outside the dictionary definition or how it's understood by the industry and N.A.s


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

outbound said:


> Don- maybe it's like pornography. " you know it when you see it". But I don't think so. I don't think it's expense. X yachts, Passports, HRs and IPs are more money than mine. Morris, oysters and Hinckley are ~ twice as much.
> I don't think it's brand. Beneteau has a cadre of excellent N.A.s and craftsmen. As long as you are writing good checks you can have pretty much what you want. As Bob pointed out same with PSC.


I agree. It never occurred to me that my boat was anything but a production boat. Sure I had some changes made but that is no different than ordering an option on a new Ford or Chevrolet. Outbound's boat is--in my mind and apparently in his--a production boat also.

Others may disagree but I do think Bob Perry's carbon cutters currently in build are not production boats.

There are low volume production boats and high volume production boats but as soon as people at the design office and at the builder start dividing costs over a production run, getting sizable discounts on engines and winches and wire, and dividing up fabrication by shop (think skill sets) instead of by boat it is a production boat.

Economies of scale are wonderful things. Things like structural grids are tremendously strong and effective but the work, including computer modeling, can be expensive. Dividing that cost up over 1,000 boats instead of 10 (or 4) makes that less painful, especially when you get a better, stronger product at less manufacturing cost.

Just because some characteristics (like liners) are common to less expensive production boats doesn't mean that only those boats with those characteristics are production boats. After pulling cable through a lot of boats and helping track down leaks that required cutting big holes I don't like liners (mostly - limited application in things like heads with sufficient access can circumvent problems for owners down the stream). My dislike for liners doesn't mean I don't like production boats. I OWN a production boat albeit one with low volume.



Shockwave said:


> Smack, I don't think there is a rush to join the group. Swan, HR, Grand Soliel don't want to be Hunter. There is no rush by quality builders to be at the bottom.


That depends on what group you are talking about. There are surely high, medium, and low quality production boats. Quality and price-point don't always have deterministic relationship. Sometimes you pay more for easier maintenance or longer service life. Sometimes there are marketing costs, or marketing that hide real costs like outfitting. Accordingly not every Hunter is like every Hunter or every Beneteau like every Beneteau. Too many boats have system issues that are a result of outfitting by third parties of dubious capability. In my opinion this is why IP has been making more and more systems available as factory options instead of third party outfit installations.

Ultimately I think this whole thread has swirled around a vocabulary that the participants don't agree on that don't relate to particularly important things. Of course to do otherwise would require more thought, some footnotes, and perhaps some math (and no, "ratios" aren't math). You might as well sit around a bar arguing over whether Ford or Chevrolet trucks are better while some guy with a Dodge truck siphons gas from your tanks.

You may now return to your regularly scheduled programming.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Darn! Missed being “200” by one post! I just don’t understand the vitriol against the “big” production boat builders. Did Frank Butler steal your lunch money back in grade school? After you are done dumping on our choice of boats, what’s next? Our wives? Kids? If you don’t like this tread, how about starting your own, something along the line of “In Praise of High End Boats (not built by Catalina, Beneteau, Jeaneau , etc)". 

One thing that really bugs me are those who are “dumping” in this tread but yet too ashamed to put their boat model in their signature line. I’m proud of my piece of Tupperware, but apparently you guys aren’t.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

SVAuspicious said:


> I agree. It never occurred to me that my boat was anything but a production boat. Sure I had some changes made but that is no different than ordering an option on a new Ford or Chevrolet. Outbound's boat is--in my mind and apparently in his--a production boat also.
> 
> Others may disagree but I do think Bob Perry's carbon cutters currently in build are not production boats.
> 
> ...


Dave... Your post wins the prize of the year as far as I'm concerned... you hit the points very well and clear! Why can't others just agree and move on instead of this thread going the way of Smack's other thread which lost it way at some point?


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## goat (Feb 23, 2014)

guitarguy56 said:


> Boat is not the price of admission... in my sailing/yacht club... I don't participate in the regattas or races due to the big egos in the club that think they are better racers or that their boat is better than yours... trust me that in the lineup my Hunter is far far better than theirs not only in pristine condition but sail ready condition as well... It is simply stunning to hear their egos ramp up after several beers and drinks as much as we hear here... Sorry but those who believe the child's play at the sandbox ends there is foolish... We are all sailors, we all own sailboats of one type or another... and yet we simply can't get along because of our egos... Now that is 'crap'!


Ironic, isn't it?

goat


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

goat said:


> Ironic, isn't it?
> 
> goat


You haven't seen the boats so how would you know? Is wasn't irony!


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## goat (Feb 23, 2014)

guitarguy56 said:


> You haven't seen the boats so how would you know? Is wasn't irony!


The thing I found funny was your not liking the ol' fogies saying their boat was better than yours, then saying your boat was better than theirs.

Anyway since I can't tell the difference between production and whatever the other type of boat there is, I'll step back out of this discussion.

Have at 'er boys!

goat

Sorry George, I haven't noticed the signature line thing (not that I would ever dump on someone else's choice of boat)


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

So Goat, How about going into your User Profile and updating your Signature Line? Are you planning on taking your PSC down to Mex?


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

goat said:


> The thing I found funny was your not liking the ol' fogies saying their boat was better than yours, then saying your boat was better than theirs.


Goat... This is my point... I have been on their boats and they have been on mine... we all look at each others boats when cranking up for a regatta (not any more for me as mentioned earlier) and why I say my boat is in far better condition but somehow it's a Hunter so it must be of less value or that the keel will fall off (bets place on that cause it's iron keel as opposed to lead) or whatever Hunter haters say these days (crap?).



> Anyway since I can't tell the difference between production and whatever the other type of boat there is, I'll step back out of this discussion.
> 
> Have at 'er boys!


I think I'll follow your thoughts and move on too...


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

SVAuspicious said:


> There are boats I consider to be production that are still low volume.


Of course there are and to me, if there is a definition of a "production boat", it would be if two or more boats are built that are totally identical (standard options excepted). If any primary element of the boat changes, it becomes a "special". Varying degrees of luxury have nothing to do with it. And the next comment brings this into perspective:



SVAuspicious said:


> I agree. But does that make a boat production or not? If a Ford or Chevrolet is a production car does that mean that a BMW or Mercedes-Benz or Rolls Royce is not? I don't know.


Imagine asking BMW to build your car with a change to the existing spec? "Oh, can you ask them to make it a foot longer?" As an ex-product engineer for a major Japanese truck builder, I can tell you that, aside of standard options, they would not change a single bolt on any model in production no matter who asks.

So if your Bene can have any primary element changed on your request, the boat is a "custom build".

And a "production boat" does not need to be of the vanilla cruising variety. So the fact that a Carkeek is designed to race, does not mean that it isn't a production boat. If they build several boats exactly the same, it is a production boat.

So perhaps us all referring to the subject as "production boats" is already erroneous.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

So let's praise production boats.

Just got SAIL. There's a review of the Marlow-Hunter 31. Toe rail/hull deck joint a stainless L. Kevlar in lay up. Long LWL for LOA. Decent hardware. Good look for boat that size with big cockpit.

Is it what I'd choose to cross an ocean. No. A BCC, Orion or Mini might be a better choice.

Would I choose it to race. Probably not would prefer a current thre digit J.

Would I be happy with it as a small coastal. You betcha.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Shockwave said:


> Smack, I don't think there is a rush to join the group. Swan, HR, Grand Soliel don't want to be Hunter. There is no rush by quality builders to be at the bottom.


Okay...


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## goat (Feb 23, 2014)

GeorgeB said:


> So Goat, How about going into your User Profile and updating your Signature Line? Are you planning on taking your PSC down to Mex?


Done. I think. I'll see once I've posted this.

Mexico is the plan for next year, I've got my finger on the 'notice to employer' trigger. If things go as planned; retirement in 134 days 19 hours and 20 minutes (not that I'm counting), bum around B.C. for a couple months, then work my way down to Gulf of California for the winter. Get me some fish tacos.

goat


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

Shockwave said:


> Don, it seems according to the story Out told, the wife of said Hunter owner is embarrassed by their choice of boat? How does your wife feel about this?


My wife loves our Hunter. But of course to a salty internet expert troll like you that is probably a negative.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

I why wonder why it seems some people can't understand the topic and instead have to play a word game to make up for it.






BTW - I'm pretty sure the reason is they don't want to be left out of the thread and a chance to restate all their past posts in other threads.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

GeorgeB said:


> One thing that really bugs me are those who are "dumping" in this tread but yet too ashamed to put their boat model in their signature line. I'm proud of my piece of Tupperware, but apparently you guys aren't.


I don't think you are pointing at me George. My boat is no secret. Still my thoughts may be relevant. Maybe. Perhaps I am just rambling. Again. I sail a lot of boats on delivery and so some of my contributions have a much broader application than just my own current or past boats. My signature is also plenty long enough. *grin*

Auspicious is a Hallberg-Rassy 40 #68. I love her dearly and she has been very good to me. She isn't perfect but I made a good choice for me when I was in a position to make that choice.

My opinions, to the extent they have value, have little to do with the boat I chose to purchase. That really isn't important. Experience and learning educate our opinions. THAT is what gives our contributions value. Now facts (with footnotes) are a different thing. Don't get me started on that or we'll be here all night.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

I should have pointed out: I would be just as proud of my boat if she were an Allied Chance 30-30 named "Chancey." A moment of silence please for Jon Eisberg in whose absence for whom I attempt to speak.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

SVAuspicious said:


> I should have pointed out: I would be just as proud of my boat if she were an Allied Chance 30-30 named "Chancey." A moment of silence please for Jon Eisberg in whose absence for whom I attempt to speak.


Dave...I don't know you personally and would like to one day. Yes... Pause for Jon E.... He had great inputs all of us can endear to achieve one day... Now that he is gone it seems you are the best to fulfill those shoes and I'm sure he would have thought so... You have been very articulate without dividing anyone and your knowledge seems to be on the same par with Jon. I enjoy your posts and hope to learn from your exhaustive experience and wisdom.


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## Scotty C-M (Aug 14, 2013)

Yes, Guitarguy, I think you are on to something. There is a continuum of boats from completely production to one-of. Most production boats fall along that continum. Again, I'm reminded of the Santa Cruz Yachts factory. Lots of production assembly, and also lots of attention to individual details. They turn(ed) out great boats. Like many other production boats, not to everyone's taste; but they have their admirers. You'll notice I'm still using a larger definition of production boats. Took it from a dictionary (well OK, Wikipedia). It just seems appropriate. The term BeneJeneBavaHansHunterLinas, just dosen't fit. It's too restrictive. Tha's just opinion, you can use what you want, as shall I. I'm always open to other ideas, but I am more driven by data (like definitions from dictionaries) than anactodtal opinions. But all that is kind of like arguing about the number of angels on a pin. Using either definition, I'm much more interested in discussing boats.

So, I've discussed the Catalina 400 and the Sydney 38 in previous posts. Have any of you sailed on these boats? By the way, do you have praise for the Santa Cruz Yachts. Merlin is sitting at the boatyard here in Santa Cruz, waiting for it's make-over. Ohhh, that's going to be cool.


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## Rob Patterson (Oct 22, 2015)

The first boat I sailed was a hunter.
The first boat I bought was a Coronado (old production boat).
My wife learned on a Hunter.
They were all great experiences.
I want a new HR but I'm gonna make do with something less expensive.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

guitarguy56 said:


> Dave...I don't know you personally and would like to one day. Yes... Pause for Jon E.... He had great inputs all of us can endear to achieve one day... Now that he is gone it seems you are the best to fulfill those shoes and I'm sure he would have thought so... You have been very articulate without dividing anyone and your knowledge seems to be on the same par with Jon. I enjoy your posts and hope to learn from your exhaustive experience and wisdom.


JonE had far thicker skin. I really respected that. Always will.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

guitarguy56 said:


> Dave...I don't know you personally and would like to one day. Yes... Pause for Jon E.... He had great inputs all of us can endear to achieve one day... Now that he is gone it seems you are the best to fulfill those shoes and I'm sure he would have thought so... You have been very articulate without dividing anyone and your knowledge seems to be on the same par with Jon. I enjoy your posts and hope to learn from your exhaustive experience and wisdom.


Thank you. Jon was a good friend. It was always a pleasure to talk with him. We swapped customers a few times. We spent a lot of time on the phone over the years, especially when he had a project going on Chancey.

Sometimes, on some threads, I feel that I am speaking--as best I can--for both of us. We were often in a minority position in firm agreement with one another. I miss him.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SVAuspicious said:


> .....I miss him.


Here's to you SV. I know what it's like to lose a friend.

Have they determined what took his life at such a young age? Complete tragedy.

I will routinely pass the little hide away he chose on Martha's Vineyard to ride out the near miss hurricane on Chancey a couple of years back and always think of him.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Stop it, you guys.... I'm just coming to terms with Jon's sudden passing and you're bringing it all back!!

It is truly remarkable how impactful this has been on on everybody in this small community...


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Here is some praise...


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## RainDog (Jun 9, 2009)

smackdaddy said:


> Here is some praise...


Wow. That was revolting.


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## SaltyMonkey (May 13, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> Here is some praise...


Sexist POS with a D-head at the helm.

BFD.


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