# What Is A Boat Really Worth?



## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

In our "continuing education" we've learned yet another valuable lesson. Owners and brokers have a very different idea of the value of a boat than lenders and surveyors. And in more cases than not, the latter has a value sometimes approaching 40% or more less than asking price.

We saw this but getting the information direct from the horse's mouth confirmed it. And with a little more hunting we've found selling prices are more in line with lender values.

If you're a cash buyer, you can pay anything you want for a boat. If you're a seller, you can ask anything you want for your boat. If you're a broker, you're hoping both the above will get together and complete the sale.

But once you get lenders and surveyors into the mix, things change and it's usually the seller who's not happy. At least that's what we're learning in conversations with lenders and surveyors we've had recently.

I suppose inflated asking prices are due in part because there is no system in place where brokers take known sale figures and advise the prospective seller what a good number would be if they want to sell their boat reasonably soon like they often do in real estate. Maybe that's why the average boat is on the market almost a year before it sells.

In a nut shell, what the lenders and surveyors have said is the value of a boat continues to decline as it ages until eventually it has no value to the lender. If a boat is valued at 25% its original asking price, the upgrades an owner does will be depreciated at pretty much the same amount. They could also have no value to the lender. So a $20K repower may only be worth $5K to the lender, even right after work is completed. On older boats it may have no value at all.

One lender said if the owner wants to pour money into improving the condition of their boat, that's fine, just don't believe it will automatically increase the value of your boat. At least not in the lender's eyes. They are only concerned with actual value in a given market, as in "If the borrower defaults, what price do we need to be at to sell the boat in a reasonable amount of time?" They don't get emotionally involved. It's strictly numbers and they know them well.

Surveyors may attach value to major upgrades but the overall value seems to be more in line with the lender's value estimates.

The more we learned, the more I realized the saying, "A boat is a hole in the water into which one throws money" is not just a saying. It's a fact. And that fact may be why so many boats fall into disrepair. The love is gone and there's no financial advantage to keeping the boat up. Just dump it as fast as you can.

When we started our search 6-8 weeks ago, I was gathering values from BoatUS and NADA for boats we were interested in. One boat was valued dramatically lower by NADA than BoatUS. I told the broker that. He said BoatUS had more realistic prices because they also do lending. It made sense so I started using BoatUS values to determine the real value of boats in the hunt.

Recent conversations with lenders proved just the opposite. *All* lenders we talked to said they use NADA prices to value boats. And the surveyors tended to agree with the lenders regarding boat value. Seldom did either agree with the seller value. Still, there are exceptions.

So who is right?

If you're obtaining a loan and you aren't willing or able to come up with a down payment that will bridge the gap between owner/broker perceived value and lender value, you have no other choice than to move on if the seller won't come down to lender value.

If you have the cash, you can pay whatever you want.


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## jorgenl (Aug 14, 2006)

I think soldboats.com is a more accurate source of realistic prices than Nada and Boat US.

If it is a relatively common boat, a yacht broker should be able to provide you with sales data from soldboats.com.

A boat is an unnecessary luxury item, if you cannot afford to pay cash for it, chances are that you cannot afford to own it, IMHO.

I am not saying that you should pay cash, just that you should be able to. It may make more financial sense to finance part of the purchase.


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## imasaluki (Dec 24, 2012)

Nice post! Thanks for the wisdom you have passed along.


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## kd3pc (Oct 19, 2006)

welcome to big ticket purchases, via financing. It is really not any different than buying a house, collector car, vacation home, etc. and Cash is King, YOU make the decision.

NADA and Buc are useless for any boat purchase NOT on a trailer or unless you want a Bayliner.

Don't mess with a bank that does not have a marine lending department. They will shoe horn the boat purchase in to one of their existing "products". They could care less what you or a surveyor says the boat is worth. They need the boat in "their" book.

Banks are much more stringent now, than they were just a few years ago. ie 750 or higher FICO, ability to pay the note back, and a downpayment of at least 20%. They also are hesitant to lock in these fantastic (for the purchaser/buyer) low interest rates for 20-30 years, as they will go back up.

Cash IS king, but it should not encourage you to pay more for the boat than it is worth. Boats with great names (hinckley, swan, shannon, etc) may (and many have, even when adjusted for inflation) increase in value/worth, but the rest are "depreciating assets" no matter what you, the new buyer or the old buyer or the original owner have or will put in to it, to make it yours. That $20K of two year old electronics now has a ZERO value and is obsolete on its face.

A good independent surveyor will provide a "value"...usually based on replacement of the boat under survey, with something else or something similar, or a sliding depreciation value based on condition and what other boats have sold for recently and in his location. 

Marine lenders will use soldboats, auctions, repo's and "real" numbers as well as loans they have taken back or modified or called to value your new baby, but they are willing to listen and discuss value...ie see above about name. That is, a 20 year old hinckley 42 for $100K will get their attention much more so than a boat like my 20 year old Hunter P42 at $100K. Condition will get their attention as well. They simply have to make the auditors/underwriters happy that should the boat come back, the loss will be mitigated by a bank sale.

The boat is only "worth" what a ready willing capable buyer will pay for your overpriced tub.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

JulieMor said:


> In our "continuing education" we've learned yet another valuable lesson. <snip>
> 
> The more we learned, the more I realized the saying, "A boat is a hole in the water into which one throws money"* is not just a saying.* It's a fact. And that fact may be why so many boats fall into disrepair. The love is gone and there's no financial advantage to keeping the boat up. Just dump it as fast as you can.
> 
> <Snip>


Oh hey, all the advice you've been given here is just "folksy sayings and anecdotes". Ok, now you've had professional lenders and surveyors confirm what everyone here has been telling you. Feel better?

You keep approaching this from a house/car viewpoint. You are trying to find a boat that a lender will finance, and that you think will retain it's value for resale, years later.

I'll reiterate what someone else has said in this thread: Society views boats as "toys". In the current economic environment, toys have little value, especially at-risk toys, like yachts, motorcycles and vintage automobiles. As such, lenders aren't enticed to lend large amounts of money for disposable items that have little value, and will have no value a few years down the road. A highly polished turd, is still a turd as far as a bank is concerned.

When the economy was flush, I bought and fixed up vintage automobiles and sold them for a profit when I was tired of them or when I accumulated too many. When the economy turned to crap, I took a beating on all the remaining toys I sold. I lost money.

I paid cash for a solid boat that didn't "need" anything (but I have lots of wants), with the understanding that it is virtually worthless to anyone but me.

It's a good thing I love her, because we'll be stuck with each other for a long time.


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## BarryL (Aug 21, 2003)

Hey,

It's the broker's JOB to know how the much the boat is worth! He should have access to selling prices on yachtworld, plus everything else. It doesn't do ANYONE any good to try and sell a boat that's worth 60K for 100K because that deal will never happen. The bank won't loan the money, the survey will show a value that's less, etc, etc. The owner will just get frustrated and should be looking for a new broker.

Of course there are bad brokers (too many IMHO) but there are also good brokers too. 

I haven't been seriously looking for a boat for over 5 years but I have hard time believing that boats are all selling for 60% of asking price. I look at yachtworld all the time, and the boats I am interested in (C&C 110, Tartan 3500, Sabre 362, plus a few others) usually are listed for comparable prices and seem to take 6 months or so to sell. Some are listed for more and take longer I guess until the owner drops the price, but I have hard time believing that they are selling for 60%. I have offered 75-80% of asking price on a boat and been rejected. 

My statements are based on relatively common production type boats. Of course, it's much harder / impossible to set prices on rare boats.

Barry


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## TJC45 (Jul 10, 2013)

The boats are listed in the same price range because all the brokers are relying on the same pricing database. 

IMO, most boats are priced way way too high. Many are advertised with improvments like new sails or motor, or with history's like Freshwater only. My personal favorite useless price inflator " Winning race history." Ok, unless the boat is coming with the winning skipper and he's going to buy me new sails every year I guess the boat is what it is, and that is just another boat. 

Improvements may enhance a boat's sellabilty but few enhance it's value. Honestly i expect the boat to have an engine that works. Just like, if you buy my house, you expect the roof will not leak. That i just paid 15k to make sure of that, that's my problem. Though the new roof makes my house more attractive than one without a new roof, it doesn't increase its value. 

Unwanted boats are alligators eating someone's wallet. The bleeding doesn't stop until ownership changes hands. Of course the sellers want to max out what they get for the boat when they sell. But the longer they hold on, the less they will net. These folks are at a disadvantage. 

OTOH, your job as a buyer is to pay as little as possible. Listen to the surveyors, they know what these boats are really worth. 

On the subject of surveyors, they are worth their weight in gold. However, just like the rest of us, they gotta eat. Surveyors who kill deals by giving honest value assessments tend to be very skinny. Honesty has a price. And that price is having none of the local brokers recommend your service. For that reason, if you can, it is smart to use an out of the area surveyor. Someone the local brokers can't hold sway over. He owes nothing to the locals and can give you an honest assessment without thinking about whether he's hurting his business.


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

JulieMor said:


> I suppose inflated asking prices are due in part because there is no system in place where brokers take known sale figures and advise the prospective seller what a good number would be if they want to sell their boat reasonably soon like they often do in real estate.


There's more to it than that.

You simply cannot establish a value for boats the way that you can for houses. Boats have no "land value" that exists independent of the value of the structure. Boats move around. In real estate location is key, and it is very unusual to find a $6-million mansion next door to a $6,000 mobile home. In a marina, this is actually pretty common.

Of course, condition matters with a home, just like with a boat, but only a very small percentage of boats have someone living in them, compared to homes. And when no one is "home" for months at a time, the condition of a boat can go downhill very quickly.

Beyond that, every broker I've ever chatted with has stories about owners who simply refuse to believe what the real value of their boat is, and demand that it be listed at an unrealistic price.



JulieMor said:


> So a $20K repower may only be worth $5K to the lender, even right after work is completed. On older boats it may have no value at all.


True, but this is actually one way in which boats and homes are somewhat similar. Spend $20k creating an elegant outdoor barbecue area, or putting in built-in shelves and converting a bedroom into a library, and it is almost certain that you will not add $20k to the sales price you can get for your home. What you will actually add will depend to a large extent on the features that other homes in your neighborhood have. The point being, that some upgrades add a lot of value, and some add almost nothing. Some sellers think they should be able to recoup the full value of everything they've done to the boat or the house, and they end up over-pricing as a result.



JulieMor said:


> If you have the cash, you can pay whatever you want.


That's always been true, but the real point here is that a boat is a disposable luxury item that can depreciate to be worth less than zero. And I do mean that quite literally. There are boats out there that cannot be given away, because the cost of disposing of them is going to be greater than any scrap value that can be recovered from them. This almost NEVER happens with real estate. As mentioned above, the land almost ALWAYS retains some value, even if the home itself is good for nothing but tearing down. And the reality is that real estate usually goes up in value over time while a boat almost NEVER does.

Because of this, you simply cannot expect to buy a boat the way you do a home. It's easy to get a 90% loan on a home. You can even get zero-down loans on homes sometimes. Or an interest-only loan. Try getting any of those things on a boat!

Good luck finding what you want. Really. But if you approach boat-buying with the idea that it is a lot like buying a house or a car, you are in for a lot of surprises--most of them probably unpleasant.


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## jorgenl (Aug 14, 2006)

In general one can say that statistically (according to soldboats.com):

90% of all boats sell for 90% of (last) asking price.

Some boats sell for way less. Some boats sell for asking price (yes - it still does happen).


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## fryewe (Dec 4, 2004)

Buying a boat (or anything else) is a bit like participating in a buy me now/make offer eBay auction.

You can pay the BUY ME NOW price (what the seller wants).

Or you can try to get it at an OR MAKE OFFER price which likely reflects a low ball offer by the buyer.

And you can negotiate the MAKE OFFER price with the seller.

But in the end you will pay what the item IS WORTH TO YOU. 

If an object's worth to you is based on its extrinsic value you need the details of a survey and resale insight. 

Extrinsic value is what the bank worries about. If a borrower defaults they don't want to take a loss.

Banks don't give loans based on intrinsic value (how much you love the boat).

OTOH banks loan to people and if they think you are a good risk they will loan based on your ability to pay them and their evaluation as to whether you think it is important to repay them.

Years ago I bought a boat with a loan. Had a hard time finding a loan because it was a big loan for my economic status. I called a bank who had the slogan "Member of FDIC and the Human Race" in their Yellow Pages ad. A VP answered the phone and invited me down to talk to him and after a five minute discussion me he told me he would approve the loan. A lot of money at Carter-era interest rates but he knew I would repay based on the interview. And the boat was extrinsically worth it as well.

Thirty years later I still own that boat and extrinsically it is worth about what I paid for it (of course the dollar ain't what it used to be).


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## jorgenl (Aug 14, 2006)

denverd0n said:


> Beyond that, every broker I've ever chatted with has stories about owners who simply refuse to believe what the real value of their boat is, and demand that it be listed at an unrealistic price.


Yep. And there is always a another broker that is willing to list at whatever unrealistic price the seller expects. Then it becomes a waiting game for the broker. Eventually the sellers expectation will align with reality (could take a year or two) and a sale occurs. Kashing for the broker. As long as the broker does not have a cash flow problem, this is not a big deal (well, a few more showings...).

A listing is money in the bank... sooner or later.


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## sailpower (Jun 28, 2008)

A boat is worth to you what you can borrow on it. Fair enough.

If you are the only buyer in the pool then you have also established the boats market value. 

If there are other buyers or a seller wants to wait for other buyers then the market price to them will be different.

Suggesting that sellers are unrealistic because you are taking out a loan is, well, unrealistic.

A boat is not a house. You will lose money on it. It is the cost of the recreation. 

Eventually you will either find a boat you want to afford or another activity that you can write about.


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

The problem with buying a used boat right now is that not many people want to accept the beating they have taken in the last five years or so due to the economy.

There are a lot of boats for sale at unrealistic prices. I bought my last boat in 2009 and I paid the owner about 60 per cent of what he had paid for it the year before.

I also had another 8 or 9 boats on my short list, several of which that are still for sale, with owners who just didn't believe a crashed economy meant their boat was worth less.

If you can afford to keep it, fine. I know I couldn't get what I paid for my boat if I sold it right now. I don't plan on selling it, so I don't care. But, those people wanting to sell boats right now, need to get real. Because, boats that belong to owners who are realistic as to what they are worth, are selling.


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

Julie, I think banks go with NADA because it is free and easy to access. BoatUS requires you to submit a form. Soldboats requires you to be a member. If Yachtworld has sales information, that's only available to members as well. NADA is open. That does NOT mean NADA is inherently more accurate than BoatUS or others. That being said, when I was looking, NADA was a great first pass at what the boat would be worth when sold. If the seller was way out of line, I wouldn't usually bother trying to see the boat. If the asking price was within a range that was comfortable for me to make an offer based on NADA, then I'd go look at the boat. If that turned out OK, then I'd hit up BoatUS and base my offer on that, taking into account the features/gadgets/upgrades that had any value to me, and any that I might have to remove.

I believe your surveyor had it right - BoatUS's data is more accurate. I also found tha BoatUS's prices were typically lower than NADA.

I can't tell you how many sellers I talked to who said "I paid $X for the boat 6 years ago, and put $Y into her [which, in some cases, appeared to include the cost of winter storage!] so she's worth $(X+Y)." They don't seem to understand the market conditions. If it's a common boat (e.g., Catalina 25), it is only worth as much as the other, competing sellers are willing to take (not their asking price) for their boat. If you've got some shiny bell or whistle (or radar, chart plotter, etc.) that the other guy has, I might be willing to pay a little more if it's a "must have", but otherwise your boat is fungible. I know it stinks when you're the seller to have to deal in these terms, but its true. As a buyer, it's really tough to get sellers to understand this.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Group9 said:


> The problem with buying a used boat right now is that not many people want to accept the beating they have taken in the last five years or so due to the economy.
> 
> There are a lot of boats for sale at unrealistic prices. I bought my last boat in 2009 and I paid the owner about 60 per cent of what he had paid for it the year before.
> 
> ...


Boating costs money.

On the averge for a 35 foot boat we spend 4500 a year for slip fees. If you haul in the winter add at least another 600 for that and storage. If you only spend 1500 a year on improvements , wax, fuel, parts you are up to 6600 dollars. We own Haleakula outright, but lets say you finance 50000 for 5% for 10 years your payments are 530/month or $6300 a year. So the cost per year is $12,000.

What will that boat be worth in 10 years. Well you've paid 63,000 and you'd be lucky to get 30,000 back. Remember this without spending money on improvements.

How many days a year do you use it? We use ours 30 weekends plus a 3 plus week vacation plus maybe another 10 days equalling 90 days. This is a lot compared to most. Pretty expensive for a hobby.

We all want 39 foot boats. We all want lots of room. What wil you sacrifice for that. Set you amount you can comfortably spend and look in tht range. It's a hole in the water money wise. Everyone says that....because its true.

You expectation of being able to sail this year is slowly closing. You live in Chicago not the Chesapeake. If this s a priority make it happen. If its a sidelight to a vacation or getting a road trip in is not the same as acutely pursuing it.

There are plenty of boats out there at reasonable prices. Time to get decisive and act.

Dave


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

A boat is worth exactly what someone will pay for it. Not a penny more, or less.

Simple answer to a complex question.

Our Gemini we financed, surprisingly enough the bank covered 95% - including our upgrades which of course are worthless long before the loan has matured.

Our last boat we bought cash. It's worth what I paid, because that's what I paid. 
Funny thing, the surveyor asked what I paid - and that's exactly what he said market value was on his report.


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

jorgenl said:


> A boat is an unnecessary luxury item, if you cannot afford to pay cash for it, chances are that you cannot afford to own it, IMHO.
> 
> I am not saying that you should pay cash, just that you should be able to. It may make more financial sense to finance part of the purchase.


Booooo

I have not one regret in financing our boat! However, any and all upgrades are paid in cash, for example a re-power. There lies my disagreement with your opinion/comment


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## jorgenl (Aug 14, 2006)

T37Chef said:


> Booooo
> 
> I have not one regret in financing our boat! However, any and all upgrades are paid in cash, for example a re-power. There lies my disagreement with your opinion/comment


Shawn,

I was not implying that financing is bad/wrong. If interest rates are low, tax deductions are available and you can get a better return by investing it may make financial sense.

What I was trying to say, is that if you cannot afford to pay cash, there's a chance that you may not be able to afford having a boat, it all depends on a number of factors such as boat size (slip fees) age of boat (maintenance/upgrade cost), price etc etc.

Me, I like to pay cash for toys and did so with all my boats.


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## TJC45 (Jul 10, 2013)

IMO, all the sales databases are inaccurate. There simply isn't enough turnover to set an accurate market. That, and are all sales reported? 

If a common boat, a 1985 Catalina 30, sells for $30,000 does that set the market? What about condition, location, options like tall rig etc? And when will the nxt 1985 Catalina 30 sell? A week from now, month from now? Getting into the less common boats this is even more of a problem. 

With regard to database pricing setting the market, cars sell by the thousands every week. The most accurate databases are Manheim and statistical firms like Galves. They are relying on thousands of units sold, so the pricing is very good. For example every week there could 500 2011 Honda Accord LXs going over the block. Even it's only 100 there is a meaningful sampling. That sampling is the range that sets the market, from best to worst condition. However, with boats, we are down to, at best, single digits of that exact model selling. Why would i pay a database price when there is no accurate centralized pricing system?


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

Roger that, I am just not following your line of thinking.


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

jimgo said:


> Julie, I think banks go with NADA because it is free and easy to access.


Having worked in the mortgage industry, I have some idea of how underwriting a loan works. My guess is that the only reason they use NADA is simply carry-over from the car loan industry.

NADA is well known and well respected as a source of useful, accurate information when it comes to underwriting car loans. The people who are responsible for underwriting boat loans desperately want something similar, which takes most of the guesswork (and therefore the risk) out of approving a loan. They don't actually have anything that is as accurate as NADA is for cars, so they grasp at the next best thing.

When it gets right down to it, it is a CYA sort of thing. If the loan goes bad, the underwriter hasn't put his neck on the chopping block. He can always say to his boss, "But we only loaned him the amount that NADA said the boat was worth!"


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

BubbleheadMd said:


> Oh hey, all the advice you've been given here is just "folksy sayings and anecdotes". Ok, now you've had professional lenders and surveyors confirm what everyone here has been telling you. Feel better?
> 
> You keep approaching this from a house/car viewpoint. You are trying to find a boat that a lender will finance, and that you think will retain it's value for resale, years later.


Okay Bubble, let me explain this, again... Just so you don't get your shorts in a bind, again... And so you don't have to take your interpretation and try to make it fact, again... *What I'm doing is sharing some information I've gained from talking to people who will ultimately affect the real life value of a given boat, especially if you need to get a loan. What anyone does with that knowledge is up to them.* This is a forum. Sharing information is what forums are for. Are we clear?

But I have to ask... Why do you think _*all the advice you've been given here is just "folksy sayings and anecdotes"*_? I think you've discredited some of the members here who offer up useful information that helps a lot of people here.

You really need to apologize.


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## sailpower (Jun 28, 2008)

JulieMor said:


> *What I'm doing is sharing some information I've gained from talking to people who will ultimately affect the real life value of a given boat, especially if you need to get a loan. What anyone does with that knowledge is up to them.* ....
> 
> You really need to apologize.


Julie, at the risk of having to apologize, I disagree with you that lenders are setting the market.

That may be true in your case because you need to borrow and don't have the required equity and so are bound by that limitation. For other people in different circumstances your situation would be irrelevant.

I wish you luck in your search but it doesn't look like you are going to make the Chicago season this year.

The good news is that you will have all winter to play with spreadsheets and post on every sailing forum you can find about buying a boat.

Now that recreation is free!


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## jorgenl (Aug 14, 2006)

T37Chef said:


> Roger that, I am just not following your line of thinking.


Shawn, that's OK I having a hard time following my own line of thinking at times. 

In my world my boat's value should represent a minor portion of my overall net worth. That is because it is a depreciating, unnecessary luxury item (at least to me it is).

That is regardless of whether the boat is worth $10K, $100K or $1M.

If you *have* to borrow money to buy a boat, it indicates to me that the boats value may represent a significant portion of your net worth.

If you *elect to* to finance a boat, because it makes financial sense to do so, that is, to me, an entirely different kettle of fish.

Ok, that probably confused the issue even further, if possible. ;-)


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Julie, even if a broker were a good and honest person, they'd have an easier time in the diplomatic corps than in brokerage. If either the buyer or the seller is not a perfectly rational person (and one can debate whether rational persons deal in boat at all) then the broker will insult and upset at least one of them by mentioning _reality _and what the boat is really worth.

And then of course there are the brokers who are in the business to make or steal money in one manner or another, not simply because they are trying to balance the karma of the bazaar. Or so I've been told.

Reality is a terribly fluid concept, even more so in small markets like boats.

The car buying books (NADA, red book, black book, etc.) vary just as badly, and in the hands of someone who doesn't know how to read them--because they ALL say there are other factors to apply--they're all dangerous tools.


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

I've said if you have the cash to buy a boat, you're free to spend as much as you want on the boat. If you get emotionally attached to a boat and feel the need to put more down (if you're borrowing) then do so. It's a free world. We all have a free will. It's a beautiful thing.

There's a concept called OPM - other people's money. Rather then taking cash out of the bank, use someone else's money. I use that in my investments. (I know, a boat isn't an investment, but I haven't bought one yet.) No way I'm paying cash. But that's just me.

FWIW, I never meant for this thread to be about me. No need to treat my post as such. I was just trying to share what I learned. That's all, really.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"There's a concept called OPM - other people's money. Rather then taking cash out of the bank, use someone else's money. I use that in my investments. "
EH, I'd say you've got that backwards, Julie. Unless you are literally stealing their money, when you borrow someone else's money, and presumably pay them back iwth interest, THEY are using YOUR money. You're not using their money.

If you borrowed the money from yourself, you'd keep the vigorish. Borrowing money only works if you can borrow for less than the return you get elsewhere, like taking out a 3.5% mortgage and putting a quarter million in the market at 10% instead. (Which for a while was very possible, not quite such a sure thing right now.)

In the 1970's, when a million-dollar robbery was a BIG one, the DOJ/FBI stats said that something like 90% of those big ones were never solved. They attributed this to professional planning. As opposed to the guys who said "Ah, I ain't got no beer money, let's go rob the 7-11."


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

JulieMor said:


> Okay Bubble, let me explain this, again... Just so you don't get your shorts in a bind, again... And so you don't have to take your interpretation and try to make it fact, again... *What I'm doing is sharing some information I've gained from talking to people who will ultimately affect the real life value of a given boat, especially if you need to get a loan. What anyone does with that knowledge is up to them.* This is a forum. Sharing information is what forums are for. Are we clear?
> 
> But I have to ask... Why do you think _*all the advice you've been given here is just "folksy sayings and anecdotes"*_? I think you've discredited some of the members here who offer up useful information that helps a lot of people here.
> 
> You really need to apologize.


You completely misinterpreted my statement. I do NOT think the advice you've been given is "folksy anecdotes". I'm saying that YOU have been given the same advice here, but apparently didn't understand or believe what anyone was telling you until you spoke to brokers and surveyors, and suddenly you're here sharing the same wisdom with us that forum members have given you as if you've had some kind of epiphany.

I was utilizing sarcasm when I asked you if you thought the advice you've been given was merely folksy anecdotes. You obviously missed it.

I think you've been given a lot of good advice by people here and I respect their opinions, so no apology to the other members is necessary.

Some of the information you're sharing, is merely opinion and a lot of people in this thread have disagreed with you. I also disagree with you, and I'm not apologizing for it. I've imparted some sarcasm your way, but I hold no malice towards you. I haven't name-called, used profanity or crossed any forum boundaries so an apology isn't forthcoming.

I'll just reiterate an _opinion_ that I've voiced in the past:

In our society, a recreational vessel is not a rational or sound financial decision. Ever. _Ever._

On paper, it is a huge financial loss no matter how you try to spin the numbers. The reason for this, is because it is simply impossible to quantify "joy". The joy that you get from sailing. You can't measure, buy or sell joy.

I told you before, that I absolutely respect your desire to make a smart purchase, and not rush into a big, financial (floating) mistake, but you've gone to the total opposite end of the spectrum.

You are rationalizing yourself right out of your dream.


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

denverd0n said:


> Having worked in the mortgage industry, I have some idea of how underwriting a loan works. My guess is that the only reason they use NADA is simply carry-over from the car loan industry.
> 
> NADA is well known and well respected as a source of useful, accurate information when it comes to underwriting car loans. The people who are responsible for underwriting boat loans desperately want something similar, which takes most of the guesswork (and therefore the risk) out of approving a loan. They don't actually have anything that is as accurate as NADA is for cars, so they grasp at the next best thing.
> 
> When it gets right down to it, it is a CYA sort of thing. If the loan goes bad, the underwriter hasn't put his neck on the chopping block. He can always say to his boss, "But we only loaned him the amount that NADA said the boat was worth!"


Property is really only worth what someone can pay for it, so, what you are saying is that NADA is an accurate representation of what a boat is worth to the lien holder.

Most sellers or owners don't like to agree with NADA, but, in fact it is what it is. An accurate representation of what a boat is worth to someone who needs to get a loan.

Moving forward, since we may all have to sell our boat at some point, we need to stay in a price range that will allow the next buyer to finance if at all possible.

Most of us dump money into our boats that we will never get back but NO seller like to bring cash to the table to pay off a loan at closing.

So NADA may very well be in the ball park much of the time.


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## imasaluki (Dec 24, 2012)

Oh gosh, let's not bring "free will" into this. Tee hehe.


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## TJC45 (Jul 10, 2013)

I'm with Julie in that the banks set the market. Or, at least knows the true value of the boats on the market. They require a certain debt coverage and have to factor in recovery and remarketing costs. Still, if a major lender is only willing to cough up less than half the vessel's agreed upon selling price something is very wrong with that price. 

I've said it once and i'll say it again, only in different terms - boat pricing is more hocus pocus than grounded in dependable market data. If 500 2011 Toyota Camry LE's go thru Manheim this week between $11,000 and $13,000 then that's the market every car dealer in the country can use to set prices. How many Pearson 303's gonna sell this week? Probably zero! Yet every boat broker in the country can tell you exactly what they are worth. How is it that they can do that? 

The bank is, if nothing else, a good double check. Even if you have no intention of financing, it might not be a bad idea to see how much a bank would lend on your intended purchase.


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## Neosec (Jun 25, 2013)

^^^^ True that.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Re: the original thread caption - exactly what someone is willing to pay for it.

Not exactly an original statement but it is the simple truth. Prior to 2008 people were willing to pay more - a lot more - than they are today.

As far as I know, Soldboats.com is the most accurate valuation system out there. I had bootleg access to it a few years ago and was astounded at what boats actually sold for compared to asking prices. Very frequently the sale prices were 1/2 or less of asking, not 10% & 20% less - 50% to 70% less - huge differences.

If your broker doesn't have access to it, get a new broker.


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

chef2sail said:


> Boating costs money.
> 
> On the averge for a 35 foot boat we spend 4500 a year for slip fees. If you haul in the winter add at least another 600 for that and storage. If you only spend 1500 a year on improvements , wax, fuel, parts you are up to 6600 dollars. We own Haleakula outright, but lets say you finance 50000 for 5% for 10 years your payments are 530/month or $6300 a year. So the cost per year is $12,000.
> 
> ...


But, I already have a boat! In fact, I have two of them.


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

RobGallagher said:


> Most sellers or owners don't like to agree with NADA, but, in fact it is what it is. An accurate representation of what a boat is worth to someone who needs to get a loan.


But the real point is that a very large percentage of boat buyers do not get loans. That means that while NADA and lenders may set the limit that a small percentage of buyers can pay, they do not, and cannot actually set the market price.

As for using Other People's Money. Yeah. It's a great idea. But it does not work when you are buying a depreciating asset that will not be used for generating revenue. In that case, as hellosailor said, it is the bank that is using YOUR money--not the other way around.


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

BubbleheadMd said:


> You completely misinterpreted my statement.


It's annoying when someone else puts words into your mouth, isn't it? Now you know how I feel about the statements you make.



BubbleheadMd said:


> I'm saying that YOU have been given the same advice here, but apparently didn't understand or believe what anyone was telling you until you spoke to brokers and surveyors, and suddenly you're here sharing the same wisdom with us that forum members have given you as if you've had some kind of epiphany.


I think you are more emotionally invested in my boat buying/owning process than I am. But let me explain how I work.

There's a thing called "getting a second opinion." My dad was diagnosed with cancer. His doctor recommended drastic treatment. He got a second opinion and that made more sense to him so he went with it and lived 13 more good years. The first doctor was insulted. My dad was happy. It's smart to get a second opinion.

There's also a something called research. If you get all your information from one source, you haven't done very good research. When you get your information from many sources, your research is more solid, especially when it comes from those who make a living at the thing you're researching.

I have not read one post here that talks about what the lenders are using for boat value nor their take on how they value upgrades. What they said was a revelation to me. That's why I shared it here. Please don't feel offended or misinterpret my intentions.



BubbleheadMd said:


> You are rationalizing yourself right out of your dream.


Again, your opinion, and you would be wrong. My dream is not to own a boat. My dream is to own a boat I can enjoy, and there's a lot that goes along with that.

This is how I go about all major purchases. Some call it analytical, some call it thorough and some call it rational. (ahem!) I don't see anything wrong with any of that. I will know pretty much exactly what I'm getting into and when I find the right boat and make the purchase, there will be no surprises and no regrets, or at least much fewer of each.

On another thread I made the silly remark this won't be an emotional decision and justifiably got called out on it. But apparently some think, for me, this process is too unemotional, too logical, too rational. It is apparent you fall into that category.

Maybe that silly remark was more accurate than even I believed it would be. I'm okay with that. I'm now comfortable wading around in the boat buying world. I've learned enough, and from many different sources, that I feel confident entering into the whole process. There's still more to learn, but at least I no longer feel like I'm grasping at straws.

And that's a good thing.... For me.


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

denverd0n said:


> As for using Other People's Money. Yeah. It's a great idea. But it does not work when you are buying a depreciating asset that will not be used for generating revenue. In that case, as hellosailor said, it is the bank that is using YOUR money--not the other way around.


Don't forget the money you didn't use to buy the boat. If that's generating more in interest than you're paying for the loan...  There's a lot of ways to look at the value of that money you didn't spend.


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## TJC45 (Jul 10, 2013)

denverd0n said:


> But the real point is that a very large percentage of boat buyers do not get loans. That means that while NADA and lenders may set the limit that a small percentage of buyers can pay, they do not, and cannot actually set the market price.
> 
> As for using Other People's Money. Yeah. It's a great idea. But it does not work when you are buying a depreciating asset that will not be used for generating revenue. In that case, as hellosailor said, it is the bank that is using YOUR money--not the other way around.


Can you point me to a source on the percertage of boat buyers who finance?

Regardless, pay cash vs finance can be debated into the ground. While returns on guaranteed investments are at life time lows right now there is still lost opportunity cost to be considered. Even an investment in 5% tax free bonds, along with the second home deduction can put a serious dent in the finance costs of a boat. Especially these days when the interest rates being charged on loans are also at all time lows.

Then there are other investment venues to be considered. Since the cash going into the boat is a guaranteed loser, from an investment POV, just about anything short of penny stocks would be less risk. From cashing in on the real estate downturn to keeping the money in the stock market there are a lot better uses for the cash than draining it on a boat. Seriously, an investment savy friend approaches you with the bonafide deal of a lifetime but go time is now. You tell him you can't because you just bought a boat. Hmm, yeah, that works!!!

So, even if you have the cash, plunking it all into a boat, maybe not the best option. At least something where all the possibilities have to be weighed.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

BubbleheadMd said:


> Oh hey, all the advice you've been given here is just "folksy sayings and anecdotes". Ok, now you've had professional lenders and surveyors confirm what everyone here has been telling you. Feel better?


Bubble - I gotta say this is kind of funny coming from you. Remember back in the day when you became "chastened"?


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

smackdaddy said:


> Bubble - I gotta say this is kind of funny coming from you. Remember back in the day when you became "chastened"?


Are you implying that I disregarded advice given to me on this forum, and then showed up later, claiming the same knowledge as if it were brand-new?

"Chastened" was a sarcastic "tip 'o the hat" to SailingDog, SailAway and those folk who were condescending and insulting to all newb sailors who checked into the forum. Those guys had great advice...IF you could sort through their insults and vitriol to get to it. When you and others refused to kiss their behinds in exchange for that knowledge, they left.

I'm not disparaging Julie's sailing ability. In fact, I'm not disparaging her at all.
I'm just saying that she's been offered 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th opinions here, ignored all of it, and now it's gospel because she's spent a weekend with brokers and surveyors.

I am merely voicing my opinion, that her level of caution approaches that of paralysis. Further, my opinion is that she's treating a boat purchase as if it were a car or a home, which I believe is a flawed premise. Several other people seem to agree with my opinion.

I even offered the suggestion of fractional ownership in a sailing club as a way of avoiding the financial "suck-hole" that a boat is.

Am I emotionally invested in her purchase? Nah. 
I'm laughing. I'm laughing my a$$ off, because I've watched people chase their tails like this before, and in the end, accomplish nothing. No offense to Julie, but she's got 20+ years on me, and I'm not a young fellow.

I'm reminded of General George C. McClellan who meticulously planned himself into paralysis. Lincoln was forced to remove him from command, because he simply couldn't keep up with the pace of battle the Confederates placed upon him.

Haven't you ever met anyone for whom the "planning" was more exciting than the "doing"? I can think of another, very vocal forum member who fits this description to a "T". They're pretty quiet these days. I'll give you one guess who. 

Hey, whatever. It's her time to waste, I'm just enjoying the show.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

BubbleheadMd said:


> Are you implying that I disregarded advice given to me on this forum, and then showed up later, claiming the same knowledge as if it were brand-new?


Just giving you a hard time dude.

As for disregarding advice - hell yes you did! Remember that winter sail that was surely going to kill you?

Granted, you didn't come back dead and start advising others to avoid the cold. So you got me there.

I am totally with you on the planning versus doing thing though. Sailing is ALWAYS better than planning.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

smackdaddy said:


> Just giving you a hard time dude.
> 
> As for disregarding advice - hell yes you did! Remember that winter sail that was surely going to kill you?
> 
> ...


I respect you. Tease away, my friend.
But yeah, I don't sail in the winter and then tell other people not to do it, like it's magical, new advice.

Speaking of sailing, what's it like being "Master and Commander" on your monster Hunter?  From the photos, the deck just stretches on and on, from the wheel!


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

BubbleheadMd said:


> I respect you. Tease away, my friend.
> But yeah, I don't sail in the winter and then tell other people not to do it, like it's magical, new advice.
> 
> Speaking of sailing, what's it like being "Master and Commander" on your monster Hunter?  From the photos, the deck just stretches on and on, from the wheel!


Actually, it's still scary as hell. But I'm getting more used to it. I really does make me (and the boys) feel SO good being on that boat. It's so big and nice - we just can't believe it.

I plan to do a series of write-ups on BFS that will go through the every step of the process. I paid cash for her. I think this was a good way to go for us - though it was seriously sobering wiring that wad.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

smackdaddy said:


> Actually, it's still scary as hell. But I'm getting more used to it. I really does make me (and the boys) feel SO good being on that boat. It's so big and nice - we just can't believe it.
> 
> I plan to do a series of write-ups on BFS that will go through the every step of the process. I paid cash for her. I think this was a good way to go for us - though it was seriously sobering wiring that wad.


That's a helluva lot of boat for $42k. Great find!


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

BubbleheadMd said:


> I'm just saying that she's been offered 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th opinions here, ignored all of it, and now it's gospel because she's spent a weekend with brokers and surveyors.


See? There you go again. Putting words into my mouth. I really, really tried to explain to you I didn't ignore anyone's advice here. I really did Bubble. But, like so many replies I've seen you make, it seems you read something in part, process that through your Bubble mind and then write whatever fits you.

I took all the advice given here into account. In fact I have a Word file into which I've copied and pasted a lot of it and I have referred to it often. I value every bit of it. If that's "ignoring" to you, then please let me know so I can stop thinking that one day we could actually communicate on an adult level. 

On another note (and putting the thread back on track): We looked at a 1989 E38-200 yesterday. This particular boat was priced by the owner. He priced it at the high end of E38s on Yachtworld. Apparently, the owner didn't take into consideration that his boat had no refrigeration, electronics that were almost as old as the boat and virtually no upgrades or add-ons over the past ~20 years. Many of the boats in his price range had A/C, new motors or other big ticket items. Others far better equipped (some also with A/C) and recently upgraded were asking $10K or more less than he was asking.

But I did find the E38 gives me the warm fuzzies.  I was surprised by that because none of the pictures I've seen on any E38 did that to me. And we really like this broker and he agreed to represent us no matter who we buy from. Then we ended the day at a place called The Sailloft and I had a very tasty Rum Runner (or two).







So it was a good day, even if it was 95 in the shade.


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## TJC45 (Jul 10, 2013)

Sounds like you are on to something. if you really like the boat you saw, for now, look past the pricing, the older equipment and concentrate on the basic structure. New equipment and options like AC can always be added. 

If the boat meets all your size and condition requirements then it's only a matter of price. If you've got a bead on what these boats are worth make the owner an offer. If you believe the boat is overpriced don't be afraid of insulting the guy with a realistic offer. Of course give yourself some room to move up. While it is his boat, it is your money. 

It is unlikely that the perect boat will show up. Every boat you look at is going to have some warts. Whether they be the condition, the equipment or a price in outer space. If this boat gives you the warm fuzzies give the owner a try. You never know!!!


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

I've always found that Ericsons give me the warm fuzzies. They were very good boats and all of them are good looking. I'm particularly partial to the race oriented King designs - 34X, 37, 39 & 46.

I doubt you could go far wrong with a decent Ericson.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Good show...a design and boat you liked. I would worry about the add ons as was said as you can do them yourself and then they are new...and state of the art. Concentrate on the realistic price of the boat and the items which were important.. Was it I good shape? How as t used previously? How many owners? Engine maintenance? Thats what really counts here not the add ons. Is it a fresh water boat? How many months a year was it sailed?

Make a fair price offer. Its easier to have the one close by than one far away.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

If/when you place an offer, point out the lack of improvements as justification for your offer.

Also remember that most improvements do not add to the cash value of the boat. If done properly, they will enhance its attractiveness for a faster sale, but they'll rarely increase its price. (But it's fine for you to claim they do as part of your negotiation - it's all "part of the game.") When shopping for boats, I found more than a few cases where an "improvement" was poorly done and detracted from the boat's value. In a couple cases they were total deal breakers, because the botched jobs could not be undone.

I think some people here have lost patience because your purchase process has taken longer than they would like. You need to proceed at the pace that's right for you. You have missed out on a couple sailing seasons, but if that's what you need to be comfortable, so be it. It's not productive of those people to take out their frustration on you up here, but that's the nature of Internet message boards. Don't let yourself get drawn into an off-topic argument.


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

I can't say a lot of how I think this will go because that would require me to put words in the broker's mouth. But, if I was the broker, I'd take the information we provided the broker to the owner and let the owner know he has buyers now who are serious but they know what's on the market and his boat is considerably overpriced. _(We showed him comps and let him know we're aware of the costs of putting this boat on the same playing field as the others.) _ If the owner stands firm, then he'll have to wait for someone who buys solely on emotion and wants to pay cash.

There was a boat owner across the way who came over saying he wanted to move up. He was in and out in a few minutes. Probably because of all that he'd have to put into the boat if he wanted the same creature comforts he now has. Or maybe he just didn't like it. Or maybe it was too darn hot!

Taking in the condition of this boat, I didn't have any major issues, from what I could see from an in-water inspection. It's far from perfect but I never expected perfect. But it's ready to sail now (I think!), we'd just have to lug a few 50# blocks of ice to the boat or bring a cooler if we wanted cold drinks. And what sailor doesn't want cold drinks? 

There are a few unanswered questions, like why was the shore power cord laid out, plugged into the dock, but not the boat? Is there a short somewhere? And I have to find the source of water stains on the upper cabin walls. Why so much oil in the bilge? And some other things on the list we made while there.

But the deck had virtually no crazing. The hull (above the waterline) looked in good shape. The rod rigging looked fine, as did the turnbuckles. But the hatches were failing and two were cracked. Fixed ports showed no evidence of leaking but the plexiglass was seriously crazed.

It wasn't the best day to thoroughly inspect a boat. It was 95 outside and about 110 inside, even after we opened all hatches and ports. I kept having to go up top to cool down and didn't do as thorough an inspection as I would have liked. I got plenty of pictures but still missed the stuffing box and a number of storage areas. I also didn't check to see if the boat had a freshwater pump. There was a number of other things I didn't check but it was so hot, spending any time below was torture.

We'll see how it goes. We're still planning on making the trip east. A friend of ours in CT is expecting us, regardless of if we find a boat locally or not. But if the buyer really wants to sell and recognizes what other boats are offering, he might feel a price adjustment is in order. I'd rather approach it that way than throw a number at him before he's nudged to seriously look at other E38s on the market and compares apples to apples, to whatever degree that's possible.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

JulieMor said:


> I can't say a lot of how I think this will go because that would require me to put words in the broker's mouth. But, if I was the broker, I'd take the information we provided the broker to the owner and let the owner know he has buyers now who are serious but they know what's on the market and his boat is considerably overpriced. _(We showed him comps and let him know we're aware of the costs of putting this boat on the same playing field as the others.) _ If the owner stands firm, then he'll have to wait for someone who buys solely on emotion and wants to pay cash.
> 
> There was a boat owner across the way who came over saying he wanted to move up. He was in and out in a few minutes. Probably because of all that he'd have to put into the boat if he wanted the same creature comforts he now has. Or maybe he just didn't like it. Or maybe it was too darn hot!
> 
> ...


And then there are the two close to me. One 10 minutes the other 1/2 hour. If you like them and are enamored/ serious this is the model let me know if/ when you want me to do a quick look at them

Dave


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

This is a good thread about what boats are worth, how to get a good deal etc. That's all useful stuff..and plenty of good advice.

We started cruising in 1987 and have gone through a succession of 5 different boats. Every one was what we thought was the right boat for us at the time. 

But for us, somehow boat purchases are different than a house, a car, or other large purchase. Boats are fun. Boats are not sensible financially. We needed to fall in love with the boat. We needed to like the seller. When selling, we needed to like the buyer or we wouldn't want them to take possession of our boat! Years after selling a boat, I often get calls from the new owner asking a question about something. I like those calls.

Yea, the price needs to be fair, but since we need to like the seller, we aren't working on a win-lose deal. The end result, is we end up with lots of sailing friends.

So for what it's worth, you aren't buying a boat. You're buying a dream. Every aspect can be fun including buying and selling.

So our advice is find a fair deal on a good boat owned by good people who take pride in their boat.


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## sailpower (Jun 28, 2008)

JulieMor said:


> I can't say a lot of how I think this will go because that would require me to put words in the broker's mouth. But, if I was the broker, I'd take the information we provided the broker to the owner and let the owner know he has buyers now who are serious but they know what's on the market and his boat is considerably overpriced. _(We showed him comps and let him know we're aware of the costs of putting this boat on the same playing field as the others.) _ If the owner stands firm, then he'll have to wait for someone who buys solely on emotion and wants to pay cash.
> 
> But if the buyer really wants to sell and recognizes what other boats are offering, he might feel a price adjustment is in order. I'd rather approach it that way than throw a number at him before he's nudged to seriously look at other E38s on the market and compares apples to apples, to whatever degree that's possible.


What you are suggesting is that the seller should negotiate against himself because the "serious buyer" says that his boat is priced too high even though the "serious buyer" is not ready to make an offer.

The broker should certainly get you the answers to your questions but the rest of it?

Who would do that?

It doesn't cost you anything to make an offer of whatever amount you wish. With that offer the seller knows that if he signs it he has a deal. Your way is just a conversation. The seller has no way of knowing what your intentions are and he doesn't know you.

Good luck.


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

worth depends on your use of and for it--is it yur home--worth more than a toy is, but, then.....
value is what that boat will sell for on open market, which is still tanked--is also what you will pay for that boat you so want. 
subjective . different to everyone. nada and surveyors are still keyed into the old market, where it wasnt so bad... good luck. try ebay and craigs list for alleged deals, but beware of scammers .....


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

I am NO expert on rigging, only speaking on behalf of a good friend who has a C&C Landfall with Rod Rigging (RR), don't buy a boat with rod rigging if it could need replacement anytime soon. He has had a heck of a time finding someone who will even deal with RR in the Annapolis area. Just say'in, do some research on RR before you buy a boat with it. It last but much more costly.


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## glymroff (Apr 2, 2009)

If you really like the boat, come up with your own value for the boat as if in the shape you'd like. Then list the deficiencies and cost per. Total and adjust original swag. Make an offer 15-20% below that. 

Most brokers will push the seller to accept a reasonable offer. If negotiable they will counter. It also shows you're serious.

Just my 2cents


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

sailpower said:


> What you are suggesting is that the seller should negotiate against himself because the "serious buyer" says that his boat is priced too high even though the "serious buyer" is not ready to make an offer.
> 
> The broker should certainly get you the answers to your questions but the rest of it?
> 
> ...


I realize it costs nothing to make an offer but would you make an offer on a boat that is priced $10K+ more than boats that, compared to this one, are loaded to the gills? It makes no sense to enter into a sales contract that is not only is listed $10K+ more but that would cost about another $10K to bring up to snuff with the other boats. Not when there's other boats you could buy and save that $20K.

What I was suggesting is since the broker almost certainly told the seller he was going to show the boat, and since the seller will most certainly ask the broker how it went, the broker might inform the seller his boat is overpriced, compared to what's on the market today. What the seller does from there is his business. It's not my job to show him the light.

If for some reason our trip east has us coming back empty handed, and the seller of the first E38 we looked at has adjusted his price, we might go back and make an offer. But we aren't going to enter into the offer phase on that boat when we still have many other boats we want to see, and all are better equipped.

It been said time and time again here, "Buy a boat that has everything you want on it, or as close to that as you can get, so you can enjoy sailing rather than pouring money into her and being stuck in the harbor fixing her up." That, to me, is excellent advice. I plan to keep my focus in that direction.

But as far as the E38-200, I really like the design, the layout and what I could glean about the build quality. The SO? Not sold like me. We'll be seeing other type boat.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Julie-
"And we really like this broker and he agreed to represent us no matter who we buy from. " You're contracting with a buyer's broker?? Really? It isn't enough to know that you'll already be paying the seller's broker, you need to have two of them in the middle?

What chef said about rod rigging can be right, you can't just look at it to tell if it has aged, and it DOES age. You need a rigger, not a general surveyor, who can examine the rods ends up close and tell if they are distorted or cracked, and whether they can be reheaded. That can be hard to find, or easy, depending on whether NavTec is picking up the phone and telling you where the local dealer may be. Either way, all standing rigging ages and needs a competent inspection and replacement from time to time.


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## misfits (Dec 9, 2011)

Julie,

Just go buy a boat & have fun. Summer will be over before you know it & you like the rest of us aren't getting any younger 

You've been around boats most of your life so you already know owning a boat is about the joy, pleasures & sometimes heart aches that money can't buy. 

Money is just something you need in case you don't die today.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

JulieMor said:


> I realize it costs nothing to make an offer but would you make an offer on a boat that is priced $10K+ more than boats that, compared to this one, are loaded to the gills? It makes no sense to enter into a sales contract that is not only is listed $10K+ more but that would cost about another $10K to bring up to snuff with the other boats. Not when there's other boats you could buy and save that $20K...


Then why not place an offer on one of those other boats? That's a question you need to be prepared for, because when you make that argument, that's the question a seller or a good broker will ask. If the broker is sharp, he may be familiar with those other boats and know the answer to that question. Have you looked at those other boats? If they're so much better, then why are you wasting your time with this boat?

I don't buy the "loaded to the gills" thing, since on used boats most add-ons add little to the dollar value of the boat. If they have so much value to you, then you should buy the other boat instead. In fact, I'm a little puzzled that you are fixated on this one boat if there are sister ships that are so much better equipped and lower priced.


JulieMor said:


> What I was suggesting is since the broker almost certainly told the seller he was going to show the boat, and since the seller will most certainly ask the broker how it went, the broker might inform the seller his boat is overpriced, compared to what's on the market today. What the seller does from there is his business. It's not my job to show him the light.


It's your job to show him the money, if you want to buy his boat.

I'm concerned that you are assuming that the seller is far more engaged in this process that he may really be. Do you really think he is hanging on every showing of his boat? He might, but some sellers just hand it over to the broker and head out of town, out of the country, etc. Many sellers are the heirs of the deceased owner, and have no connection to the boat other than some idea of how much money they want (and willing to wait to get their price). Some sellers don't really want to sell the boat (spouse making them do it, reluctant to admit their health is declining, etc.), and will continue to use and enjoy the boat until they get their price.

If the boat is overpriced, the broker has probably told the owner before you came along. If you come in with a list of reasons why the boat is a lousy value, he may not see a win-win opportunity.

I'm afraid your expectations are unreasonable if you actually expect him to lower his asking price before you even make an offer. Adjusting the asking price means forcing him to accept a lower offer from EVERYONE, not just you. That could be humiliating to him.

As I advised you before, you should stop being so hung up about asking price, do your homework to determine what the boat is worth to you, and offer that amount with an explanation to back up your valuation. That explanation should be based on boats that have already sold, though. If you use other boats currently on the market to justify your valuation, then the seller is just going to be confused at why you don't buy one of those other boats. Good brokers can tell when you're being serious, and when you're just playing games to lower the price.



JulieMor said:


> ...It been said time and time again here, "Buy a boat that has everything you want on it, or as close to that as you can get, so you can enjoy sailing rather than pouring money into her and being stuck in the harbor fixing her up."...


I think you're taking something out of context. A boat that's "loaded to the gills" is not necessarily in sail-away condition. A boat that has fewer accessories but is in sound condition could get you sailing now, and you can take your time adding things that are nice to have but not absolutely necessary.

I think you're confusing the two, and that can be dangerous. Just because you have to buy ice doesn't mean the boat will be stuck in the harbor for repairs. And just because a boat is "loaded to the gills" doesn't mean that it won't have a serious mechanical failure that could lay it up for a whole season. Just ask JimGo about that one.


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## sailpower (Jun 28, 2008)

JulieMor said:


> I realize it costs nothing to make an offer but would you make an offer on a boat that is priced $10K+ more than boats that, compared to this one, are loaded to the gills? It makes no sense to enter into a sales contract that is not only is listed $10K+ more but that would cost about another $10K to bring up to snuff with the other boats. Not when there's other boats you could buy and save that $20K.


Sure I would. If I was sure about wanting that type of boat I would make the offer that was comfortable for me taking all into account. I have done it a few times.



JulieMor said:


> What I was suggesting is since the broker almost certainly told the seller he was going to show the boat, and since the seller will most certainly ask the broker how it went, the broker might inform the seller his boat is overpriced, compared to what's on the market today. What the seller does from there is his business. It's not my job to show him the light.


You'll show him how to negotiate! Got it!



JulieMor said:


> If for some reason our trip east has us coming back empty handed, and the seller of the first E38 we looked at has adjusted his price, we might go back and make an offer. But we aren't going to enter into the offer phase on that boat when we still have many other boats we want to see, and all are better equipped.
> 
> It been said time and time again here, "Buy a boat that has everything you want on it, or as close to that as you can get, so you can enjoy sailing rather than pouring money into her and being stuck in the harbor fixing her up." That, to me, is excellent advice. I plan to keep my focus in that direction.
> 
> But as far as the E38-200, I really like the design, the layout and what I could glean about the build quality. *The SO? Not sold like me. We'll be seeing other type boat. *


That is all great. Course it's the reason why the seller of the local boat wouldn't be taking you seriously at this point.

When you have looked around some more you might decide that a local fresh water boat that is located where you want to boat has some value at some price. Or you may not. This isn't something that you have to decide right away. There will always be water. Get that spreadsheet out!


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

At the risk of repeating myself.... No, I've already done that too many times. I guess you guys will have to trust that I'm capable of taking what I learn and applying it intelligently.

And while some will make an offer on a boat they have never seen, I'm not one of those people. Thus the planned trip east.

To all those who have a boat, what the heck are you doing here? Go enjoy it!


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## ctl411 (Feb 15, 2009)

JulieMor said:


> I realize it costs nothing to make an offer but would you make an offer on a boat that is priced $10K+ more than boats that, compared to this one, are loaded to the gills? It makes no sense to enter into a sales contract that is not only is listed $10K+ more but that would cost about another $10K to bring up to snuff with the other boats. Not when there's other boats you could buy and save that $20K.
> 
> What I was suggesting is since the broker almost certainly told the seller he was going to show the boat, and since the seller will most certainly ask the broker how it went, the broker might inform the seller his boat is overpriced, compared to what's on the market today. What the seller does from there is his business. It's not my job to show him the light.
> 
> ...


If you buy a boat out of area it will take weeks to get it torn down trucked and put back together. East coast trucking is not going to be cheap think 3500 to 4500. Rig tear down wrap another 1000. Unload restep launch 500 plus the plus being Chicago area rates??? So your east coast boats will be slower and cost half or more of your "savings".

Also it is your "job" to educate the sellers use the info you have on other boats time on the market ect. I have offered 30 to over 50% off asking and three said yes and went "under contract" as they call it. Two we decided against after a second look the third we bought over 50% off asking. 
I rather put in stuff I want not what the PO wanted. Make a offer of what you think the boat is worth to you. All they can say is no. But you may be surprised.


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## ctl411 (Feb 15, 2009)

JulieMor said:


> At the risk of repeating myself.... No, I've already done that too many times. I guess you guys will have to trust that I'm capable of taking what I learn and applying it intelligently.
> 
> And while some will make an offer on a boat they have never seen, I'm not one of those people. Thus the planned trip east.
> 
> To all those who have a boat, what the heck are you doing here? Go enjoy it!


I was out sailing it. Well not my boat, my bosses boat I just steered the Sara.


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

I think the price of boats is all over the place for a reason. The quality of a boat is based on the model, age updatedness and additions. I look at the boat type as like a neighborhood. If you live within a mile of the beach in Socal you will pay 750k for a shack, 3 million for a shack on the water, crack neighborhood houses may be 200k. In the right neighborhood you can buy a home for 300k and put 100k into it and walk away with a 500k home. You can buy a 20k boat and pour the same 100k into it and be happy to get 60k for it. 

No one is going to buy a million dollar home in a crack neighborhood and the bank won't loan the money for that home. If a basic 40 year old cruiser has a radar, watermaker, new rigging, motor and sails it can realistically be worth 60k but the bank does not want to loan you that much for it.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

Julie,

Here is the bottom line on buying a used boat....

CONDITION, CONDITION, CONDITION!!!!!!

Be willing to pay a premium for it and it will be the best money you ever spent.. I see people over focus on purchase price way to much when the real focus should be condition. No matter what the boat in the best condition IS ALWAYS the best value even if you pay a large premium for it..

Boats that sit on the market for long periods of time are usually there for one reason POOR CONDITION. Though sometimes owners just list them to satisfy a spouse and the asking price is reflective of that. 

Boats that sit are not usually a value and wind up costing multiples more than a boat in tip to condition. Sometimes they sit because they are an odd-ball one off.

Boats maintained in tip top shape, or what I call "2 percenters", (the top 2% of boats) often sell in hours or days for top value but this is still a steal! I know this is tough to grasp but it is the truth. There are always buyers who know boats and only want that pristine well maintained immaculate vessel because they know it is a steal and tremendous value even at a solid premium.

I have a customer with cash trying to buy a boat right now and he has looked at over 60 boats, all JUNK. There is just too much poorly maintained junk on the market. He is willing to pay well over Soldboats.com avg because he knows that when he finds it, this boat it will represent a bargain over the same sister-ship that sells at the bottom or middle of the heap.

Tim R. sold hi beautiful Ericson with one mention of it being for sale on here on Sailnet in a forum post. This beautiful boat never even hit the market, he did not pay a broker and it sold quickly. He disclosed any issues and the boat was a true gem and a great value even if it sold at the high end of the range. Tim's replacement boat, a Caliber 40 LRC, was also purchased without it ever hitting the public market. It too is a 2 percenter.... Good boats move, bad boats sit.... Really good boats often never hit the brokerage market.

One customer went for the least expensive of his preferred model that he could find, a HUGE mistake that I see novice buyers make ALL THE TIME..

The one I tried to talk him into, same model, two years newer and it had a re-built engine, new sails, new canvas, re-wired, brand new electronics (three months old including radar), Espar heat, high output alternator, new interior cushions & foam, recent cockpit cushions, windlass, beautifully shiny gelcoat, new standing rigging and all bright work professionally stripped and re-finished. This done in preparation just for selling it. Boat was owned by a wealthy couple with a fat check book who used one of the best yards in the area. Deck hardware had also been recently re-bedded and it had bone dry decks.. The bottom had been fully stripped and barrier coated three years prior. You could eat out of the bilge. The price "premium" for all this was going to cost him 6K more upfront. Just 6K more..... Doh'...... 

He opted for the beater "value boat" at an agreed price of 28k and now has approx 75K into a boat that is still worth maybe 32-34k on a good day... Very, very, very poor decision. This is a net loss to him, over the other boat, of nearly 50k. His mistake was that he got caught up in the "purchase price" and refused to acknowledge the "value" the other boat represented and he "felt" the other sellers were just being greedy selling at the top of the market for that boat. They were not greedy at all they just knew what they had.. His boat is still not anywhere as nice as the one he did not buy and I doubt if it ever could or will be.

He kicks himself every day, especially the days I am billing him for to fix everything on his boat that was "deferred maintenance"... I also work for the guy who bought the good one, a seasoned sailor and a very smart buyer. He did not even dicker on price other than about $500.00. He knew what this boat represented and did not want to lose it. This 2 percenter was also a private sale and never hit the open market.. The boat has needed very, very little work. A few hundred dollars, that's it. He saved 6k only to spend an additional 50k +/-...........

My personal opinion is that bottom line price should never, ever be the #1 determining factor when buying a used sailboat though it very, very often is. When it is it almost ALWAYS cost more in the long run.. 

CONDITION, CONDITION, CONDITION!!!!!! Try to think and project out what will your total cost be three to four years from now. This type of thought process should always be a strong consideration.

Course in my professional opinion, please buy the beaters it keeps me working....


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## Neosec (Jun 25, 2013)

IMHO,
Every boat is worth exactly ZERO. Unless someone wants wants to buy it. Then it is worth the agreed upon price of those PEOPLE. Without people, nothing has any (monetary) value. So lets consider people. Someone with a lifelong dream to buy a sailboat and go cruising and can now do just that because of money or work reasons, will pay more than someone with a passing interest. If that same person with the dream was diagnosed with an illness that will render them disabled in 5 years, they will now pay even more because of the time constraints. On the sell side, someone that put a great deal of love and work into a boat and is emotionally attached to it will likely believe that his boat is worth much more than compatible boats because it has been so well cared for and loved. On the flip side, a widow that just lost her husband because he fell overboard from the boat that she always hated because it made her seasick and cost too much to maintain, may sell it for 10% of it's NADA value because "I never want to see that d*mn boat again!"
In the end it's about the _people_ on the buy side and the sell side and the motives that drive them. 
How much is a certain boat worth to _you_ and how long are you willing to search for it at your decided on price? Will you wait 20-30 years searching for the widow with an unwanted boat?

Best wishes to you in your search.


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## ctl411 (Feb 15, 2009)

I don't mind buying boats that need clean up and work. But huge BUT I'm going to pay way less for that boat. Like $75000 to $100000 off in our last boat. Plus i dont have a $100000 lol. I like the stuff I want to put on the boat not the "new" 3-7 year old stuff sellers call "new". Plus the boat we got hasn't been "improved" by a bunch of PO's. Not much electronics but not any butchered up wiring and holes either. Look for a dry interior and solid boat the rest is just bonus stuff if you like what's on it. Take what a reasonable person would offer then go lower. The season is getting short already, soon owners will be getting winter storage contracts in the mail. The market seems to still be slow but boats are moving. This is not broker BS but from the trucker who moved our boat. He's busy and so were the others I got quotes from.


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## Grunthrie (May 2, 2013)

TJC45 said:


> Unwanted boats are alligators eating someone's wallet. The bleeding doesn't stop until ownership changes hands.


That's the best 'folksy wisdom' I've yet read on Sailnet!


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Maine - generally I agree with you. I followed this advice and focused on condition over price. However, you are absolutely right that it's extremely difficult as a new buyer to NOT focus on price over condition - thinking that initial $6K savings for a beater is worth it. It's just too tempting. What kept me focused was remembering the fact that I like to sail - I do not like to work on boats. Period.

However, in this market, you don't necessarily need to pay a premium for good condition. The pressure of SO many boats being on the market gives the buyer quite a bit of power. The problem is that many buyers _*won't even try*_ to bring those premium prices down. I'm proof that it can be done.

So, a few of your statements I don't think are quite on. For example, this:



Maine Sail said:


> Boats maintained in tip top shape, or what I call "2 percenters", (the top 2% of boats) often sell in hours or days for top value but this is still a steal! I know this is tough to grasp but it is the truth. There are always buyers who know boats and only want that pristine well maintained immaculate vessel because they know it is a steal and tremendous value even at a solid premium.
> 
> I have a customer with cash trying to buy a boat right now and he has looked at over 60 boats, all JUNK. There is just too much poorly maintained junk on the market. He is willing to pay well over Soldboats.com avg because he knows that when he finds it, this boat it will represent a bargain over the same sister-ship that sells at the bottom or middle of the heap.


I think as a buyer if you're immediately willing to "pay well over Soldboats.com avg" for a well-maintained boat, you're making a mistake. Again, in this market, you have WAY more leverage than that as a buyer. You should absolutely use it.

As I mentioned in the write up of my boat. NADA valued my very-well maintained and equipped H40 at $55K (without having the all the boat's actual equipment in that price). $55K was the asking price. Furthermore, there were other very well-maintained and equipped H40s on the market for $65K-$90K.

I ended up paying $42K for my boat. And it was virtually ready to sail away. Even so, I am choosing to put some significant work into it (e.g. - new standing rigging) to bring it up to my standards - but I used that and everything else I could possibly find for strength in negotiating.

So, let's say that those boats in the $65K-$90K range were in even better shape. Would an additional $23K-$48K been a "bargain"?

No.

All-in, I will likely have about $55K into my boat with the standing-rigging and other repairs and upgrades I'm making. This puts my boat's "value" right at the NADA value and still below the surveyor-appraised value.

This is precisely where I wanted to be.



Maine Sail said:


> One customer went for the least expensive of his preferred model that he could find, a HUGE mistake that I see novice buyers make ALL THE TIME..
> 
> The one I tried to talk him into, same model, two years newer and it had a re-built engine, new sails, new canvas, re-wired, brand new electronics (three months old including radar), Espar heat, high output alternator, new interior cushions & foam, recent cockpit cushions, windlass, beautifully shiny gelcoat, new standing rigging and all bright work professionally stripped and re-finished. This done in preparation just for selling it. Boat was owned by a wealthy couple with a fat check book who used one of the best yards in the area. Deck hardware had also been recently re-bedded and it had bone dry decks.. The bottom had been fully stripped and barrier coated three years prior. You could eat out of the bilge. The price "premium" for all this was going to cost him 6K more upfront. Just 6K more..... Doh'......
> 
> He opted for the beater "value boat" at an agreed price of 28k and now has approx 75K into a boat that is still worth maybe 32-34k on a good day... Very, very, very poor decision. This is a net loss to him, over the other boat, of nearly 50k. His mistake was that he got caught up in the "purchase price" and refused to acknowledge the "value" the other boat represented and he "felt" the other sellers were just being greedy selling at the top of the market for that boat. They were not greedy at all they just knew what they had.. His boat is still not anywhere as nice as the one he did not buy and I doubt if it ever could or will be.


Your scenario works very well for boats that are typically passed around within a sailing community. As you say, people generally know each other and the boats and would rather do business that way. However, that's pretty rare for newer boat buyers.

We are not yet part of that kind of community - so we have to look around. Yachtworld was my addiction for 3 years. The key to doing well there is to set a strict budget, have that money ready, and WAIT. The right boat will come along, but it might take a couple of years.

As for the guy that paid $28K for a boat, then put in *another $75K*???? I'd say there was nothing smart about that purchase or the work he's done thereafter. That's insane. Unless that boat was ready for the chainsaw it's a stretch to think about how someone could dump that much money into an already floating boat.

What in the world took that much money? And why didn't he sue the surveyor?


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

When Maine refers to "2%'ers" I think he is referring to those rare boats out there that are pristine - in new or better than new condition.

In those case, a "bargain" price would be better compared to a new boat price rather than the used market range for the same or similar boats.

If you use that perspective it's easy to see a relatively expensive boat as a bargain. Buying what amounts to a new boat for say 60% of the new price compared to paying say 30% of new for a typical, well used boat that requires a significant investment for the "usual" upgrades can be an astute purchase.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

SloopJonB said:


> When Maine refers to "2%'ers" I think he is referring to those rare boats out there that are pristine - in new or better than new condition.
> 
> In those case, a "bargain" price would be better compared to a new boat price rather than the used market range for the same or similar boats.
> 
> If you use that perspective it's easy to see a relatively expensive boat as a bargain. Buying what amounts to a new boat for say 60% of the new price compared to paying say 30% of new for a typical, well used boat that requires a significant investment for the "usual" upgrades can be an astute purchase.


Ah, okay. That I can see.


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

I think the inconsistencies in price are due in large part to the number of brokers who list a boat at whatever the seller asks so they can get the listing. Then those numbers get posted on YW or SL and act as a barometer for future sellers to use to price their boat. It's self perpetuating. 

Some brokers guide the seller and help them reach a realistic price, one based more on recent sold prices than recent listing prices. And a seller taking that advice will probably sell the boat faster than average.

In real estate, I've seen realtors run from homeowners who have unrealistic expectations about the value of their home. Those who take the listing anyway will put on a show then suggest a price drop if there's no nibbles. And they keep doing that until the home sells. 

All selling agents, regardless of the commodity, want to sell because that's how they get paid. Buyer, seller, it doesn't matter, their real loyalty is to themselves and that means getting things sold so they can make a living. So it benefits them to get the seller to lower the price if too high and try to guide a buyer into the deal. But they won't put a lot of time into a boat they feel is overpriced, not when they can sell another boat to that buyer. 

$10K may be a lot to the seller but is only $500 to the selling agent, unless he is also the broker, then he keeps the whole $1,000. But if you can make $2K now or $2.5K who-knows-when, you'll take the $2K now and move on to the next prospect.

That's why I'm surprised you don't see more price drops in boat listings. A boat that's sitting for 6 months that has had no price drops means either the broker forgot about it or the seller won't budge. This process isn't just about serious buyers, it's also about serious sellers. And, of course, supply and demand.


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

JulieMor said:


> To all those who have a boat, what the heck are you doing here? Go enjoy it!


 I enjoyed a great sail today, even with a less than pristine bottom we hit 7.8 on a broad reach. I will next weekend and maybe Tuesday or Wednesday enjoy a sail as well.  No need to remind me to go.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Bareboat charter on Lake Washington tomorrow. Can't wait!


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## TJC45 (Jul 10, 2013)

Current data on sailboat sales is hard to find. One source listed current time on market to sell a sailboat as 303 days. It also noted that sailboat sales was largely dominated by used boat sales. 8 out 10 sailboat sold, pre-enjoyed. And, finally that the total number of sailboats sold, relative to powerboats was very small. 

Even if the data is stale, the message to sailboat owners is clear- love the one you are with, because it is going to take time, and effort, and money to move on.


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## sailpower (Jun 28, 2008)

JulieMor said:


> I think the inconsistencies in price are due in large part to the number of brokers who list a boat at whatever the seller asks so they can get the listing. Then those numbers get posted on YW or SL and act as a barometer for future sellers to use to price their boat. It's self perpetuating.
> 
> Some brokers guide the seller and help them reach a realistic price, one based more on recent sold prices than recent listing prices. And a seller taking that advice will probably sell the boat faster than average.
> 
> ...


A correction, the broker generally receives 50% of what he/she brings in so the $ 500 or the $1,000 would actually be worth half of that to the individual broker.

Interesting that some believe that brokers have little influence when advising an owner about what to ask but have great power when it comes to persuading that same owner on what to take. Neither is particularly accurate.

The reality is that there will always be sellers who want what they want. Should a broker turn that listing down? Maybe sometimes they should as they run the risk of wasting time and money marketing something that is not realistically for sale. OTOH, the broker will receive inquiry on the ad which may mean selling something else. Business decision.

Reputable listing brokers are all about selling the boat and getting the seller the maximum. That is their job and also their fiduciary duty. The latter is a legality that is often overlooked in these discussions. Do some research on Agency Law and you will see what I mean. Remember that legally brokers are generally considered agents not salesmen. Different thing entirely.

As part of getting the seller the maximum, the broker has the responsibility to educate the seller on the current market. If the seller's idea of what the maximum is differs from what the broker believes it to be then the broker makes the case and the seller, not the broker, decides what the price will be.

BTW, recommending a listing price is a lot more complicated then looking at a list of boats on YW. There are many other factors to consider.

At the end of the day the market consists of Sellers, Buyers and Brokers of widely differing knowledge, motivation and ethics. Making sweeping generalities about it is pretty much useless.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

SloopJonB said:


> When Maine refers to "2%'ers" I think he is referring to those rare boats out there that are pristine - in new or better than new condition.
> 
> In those case, a "bargain" price would be better compared to a new boat price rather than the used market range for the same or similar boats.
> 
> If you use that perspective it's easy to see a relatively expensive boat as a bargain. Buying what amounts to a new boat for say 60% of the new price compared to paying say 30% of new for a typical, well used boat that requires a significant investment for the "usual" upgrades can be an astute purchase.


 I've sold every boat I've owned--they were in good shape when I bought them and I owned each for about 8 years--for MORE than I paid. The reasons:

* Models that were in-demand due to solid construction and good design.
* Maintained in good condition. This included minor refitting as needed, not simply replacement of what broke. Engines, rigging--what ever was needed to keep them in good condition. My notion of "good condition" is relatively strict. In one case I rebuilt the trailer (axles, bearings, wheels, tires and lighting) even though one broker though this was silly and was not interested in listing a "specialty boat." I sold her in 3 weeks without a broker (several offers); the purchaser flew up to see her, put her on the trailer and dragged her 1500 miles behind a rental car.
* Some additional refit/paint as needed just before sale. There is no point in leaving relatively simple things for the next guy, if you can do them for less than he fears they will cost. If you know your boat, you should, in theory at least, no how to maintain her better than the next guy. Make it look like you care.

I'm comfortable that none of my buyers had problems in the near term.

As Mainsail said, "condition, condition, condition" + in-demand design.


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## mark2gmtrans (May 14, 2013)

smackdaddy said:


> Actually, it's still scary as hell. But I'm getting more used to it. I really does make me (and the boys) feel SO good being on that boat. It's so big and nice - we just can't believe it.
> 
> I plan to do a series of write-ups on BFS that will go through the every step of the process. I paid cash for her. I think this was a good way to go for us - though it was seriously sobering wiring that wad.


 Buying a boat is different in that the next one I buy is going to be my home for a long while, and as with any home purchase there are little surprises lurking in the darkness to worry me and take from my little piles of cash. I am just resigned to doing it and dealing with the issues as they arise because to me the value of the boat is the value of the time I will be spending on it and the happiness I find while on it. Like the credit card people say "priceless" which I am guessing is the value you place on the time you and the smacklings spend on your boat.

I am looking forward to making the wire transfer, but man I am not going to lie and say I will not be having a Maalox moment or two along the way LOL.


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

mark2gmtrans said:


> the value of the boat is the value of the time I will be spending on it and the happiness I find while on it.


Well said.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

JulieMor said:


> So a $20K repower may only be worth $5K to the lender, even right after work is completed. On older boats it may have no value at all. .


I think it is worse than that.
My saying is that buying a boat is the most efficient way to convert dollars into dimes.
A brand new Catalina 309 out the door ready to sale costs about 120,000
A 1985 Catalina 30 costs about 12,000. 
If you put a new motor in your 1985 boat that costs 15,000 with new tanks, prop, shaft, cutlass etc you 1985 boat might boat might be worth 20,000 if everything else is clean.

Not dollars to quarters, dollars to dimes.

Now the really scary thing is if you live in a sales tax state like ct you have to pay 6%+ tax. If you buy the boat keep it for a year then decide to sell you have to pay the broker.
You pay 100k for the boat 6k for tax and 10k to the broker to sell.
If you sell it for what you paid for it your 100k is now 84k.

But you almost certainly will have put some money into the boat the first year. Also you probably will not get exactly what you paid as the boat is one year older so a 20% loss in principle is pretty much a minimum.

So you better keep the boat you buy for a long time.


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## lgherb (Jul 2, 2006)

I once sold cars for 6 weeks - shortly after I graduated from college and was looking for my 1st 'real' job. I'll never forget one of the tactics this Toyota dealership instructed us on and expected us to do.

If a customer came in and said they wanted to look at Camries, we would immediately ask what their monthly budget for a payment was. Typically they would say something like $250 or $300 month (or whatever). We would then walk the customer over to the Corollas and start telling them the features of the Corollas. 

The customer would then say something like "I'm sorry, I said I was interested in a Camry". We were instructed to look the customer in the eye and say something along the lines of "At $250/month you can't afford a Camry, that is why I was showing you a Corolla...if you really want a Camry, you need to get your thinking up."

The whole idea was to obliterate what the customer was expecting to pay for a car and to raise the bar to what the dealership was expecting them to pay for a car. I think many sailboat owners and brokers want to set their starting point of the negotiating bar as high as they can. Additionally, many sailboat owners have an emotional attachment to their boats that gets reflected in their asking price.

Over time if a boat is overpriced and does not sell, the seller has a white elephant on their hands and begins to understand that they need to adjust down.

The reason that I brought up the car tactic is that it can work both ways. An informed potential buyer can bluntly let a boat owner know that they need to 'get their thinking down'. When an owner or broker shows you the boat and asks "What do you think?" there is nothing wrong with saying something along the lines of "Well, I looked at another boat of the same model and year as this one last week that had sails that were replaced 3 years ago and had less than 1,000 hours on the engine that was $15K less than your asking price." 

On a side note...looking at listings on Yachtworld, I am continually amazed at the number of boats for sale that have pictures with clutter all over the boat they are trying to sell. Does it not dawn on these sellers that prior to putting the boat listing up and taking the photos that will serve as a window to potential buyers that maybe they should take a day or two and remove all the crap that they have been storing in their boats?? As a potential buyer that not only makes me think that they have neglected their boats but that the boat probably has not been actually sailed in quite a while because the minute they had any kind of breeze and the boat heeled to any degree, all that crap would be getting tossed around the inside of the cabin.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

lgherb said:


> On a side note...looking at listings on Yachtworld, I am continually amazed at the number of boats for sale that have pictures with clutter all over the boat they are trying to sell. Does it not dawn on these sellers that prior to putting the boat listing up and taking the photos that will serve as a window to potential buyers that maybe they should take a day or two and remove all the crap that they have been storing in their boats?? As a potential buyer that not only makes me think that they have neglected their boats but that the boat probably has not been actually sailed in quite a while because the minute they had any kind of breeze and the boat heeled to any degree, all that crap would be getting tossed around the inside of the cabin.


That's the one that gets me too - I can't believe they don't even sweep it out of the cameras frame. Clueless or just lazy?

I once saw a project boat with pics like that but they used humour - "Full sink" was the caption for the galley shot and it was indeed full - of dirty dishes.


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## mark2gmtrans (May 14, 2013)

SloopJonB said:


> That's the one that gets me too - I can't believe they don't even sweep it out of the cameras frame. Clueless or just lazy?
> 
> I once saw a project boat with pics like that but they used humour - "Full sink" was the caption for the galley shot and it was indeed full - of dirty dishes.


I guess one I looked at a few months ago should have had a caption saying full head....

It was.

And I have posted on here on one of the threads before about the holy crap I cannot see the expensive yacht you are trying to sell me for the CRAP in the photos, underwear, scuba gear, cushions, dishes, and just plain old garbage. To my way of thinking if the yoyo that owned the boat in the past and the idiot trying to broker it for him cannot understand that they need to clean it up before the photos are taken, they most likely cannot understand the need for routine maintenance.


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

We had three offers on our home in 6 business days after we put it on the market ourseleves FSBO

Everyone commented how nice the house showed, including things mechanical like a new HVAC unit.

We got more than our asking price.

Why don't more people prep their boats for sale properly....that could be a whole other thread, I suspect more often than not...they don't want to deal with the thought of selling the dream


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## mark2gmtrans (May 14, 2013)

Shawn, you may have it partly right, and it may also have to do with the fact that some people are just utterly clueless about cleanliness. About five years ago some friends and I were out on a boat near Galveston, a couple we had met near Kemah earlier in the day showed up and invited us aboard to see their boat, I was shocked, I mean literally shocked. They had one of those 50+ foot ketches with pretty much everything on it, and it was an absolute pigsty. They had that huge boat and had to move things off the settee for me and my gf to be able to sit down. We declined an invitation to dine with them that evening for very obvious reasons.

If I were a commissioned sales representative I would have to tell them that I could not represent the boat if it was not clean and in squared away condition as far as the things left on board. I mean poor sales guy has to go on the boat and move the junk to take the photos, and obviously some of them move nothing. I know all about restoration projects that got abandoned half way through, and other things that leave a big mess, but a boat that sold new for $200K or better and is only eight years old should not look like a garbage disposal ate a laundry hamper and aisle 7 at West Marine and then puked it up in the boat.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

I wonder why the boat ownership thing is so important? With as little as most folks sail their own boats, wouldn't it be better economically, time wise, maintenance wise to join a sailing club or charter group and just pay for the days you use the boat? I see the same sailors here lamenting the "supposed" high cost of ownership, the poorly maintained boats they are looking at, over priced and the indifference of brokers to their needs. 

With many future owners living/sailing in short season sailing locations I wonder if the rental/lease/charter/sailing club is a better way to go?


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

aeventyr60 said:


> ...wouldn't it be better economically, time wise, maintenance wise to join a sailing club or charter group and just pay for the days you use the boat?


For some people, yes. And a lot of people do that.

Others want to have their boat available anytime, and like the idea that it is just theirs--no on else is messing it up, or using it this weekend when they want it.

Of course, there are a lot of people who are just in love with the IDEA of owning a boat. It's a dream. They get the boat and reality sets in. They use it a lot the first year. Less the second. Hardly at all the third. And then the boat just sits, completely unused, for the next several years until they decide to sell it.

That's one reason so many of the "for sale" pictures you see are several years old, and why the owner often has no clue what condition his boat is in. He hasn't set foot on it in three years or more!


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

Those boats with pictures of clutter make me wonder how serious the seller really is. I've seen pictures that tell me the boat has been poorly maintained yet the listing price is at the high end. I imagine the seller walking into the broker's office thinking, "I wonder how much it's really worth? Can I make a profit on it?" And if the broker accepts the seller's value as the listing price...

When I referred to serious sellers above, this is one of the scenarios I was thinking about. I've seen some here criticize what they called "tire kickers" as wasting the time of the seller. But the seller who is testing the market wastes the time of the buyer too. Maybe they should be called "buyer kickers."

_*"Why are they selling?"*_ For the buyer, the answer to this can be a great piece of information to determine just how serious the seller is.


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## mark2gmtrans (May 14, 2013)

JulieMor said:


> Those boats with pictures of clutter make me wonder how serious the seller really is. I've seen pictures that tell me the boat has been poorly maintained yet the listing price is at the high end. I imagine the seller walking into the broker's office thinking, "I wonder how much it's really worth? Can I make a profit on it?" And if the broker accepts the seller's value as the listing price...
> 
> When I referred to serious sellers above, this is one of the scenarios I was thinking about. I've seen some here criticize what they called "tire kickers" as wasting the time of the seller. But the seller who is testing the market wastes the time of the buyer too. Maybe they should be called "buyer kickers."
> 
> _*"Why are they selling?"*_ For the buyer, the answer to this can be a great piece of information to determine just how serious the seller is.


I recently went over 1000 miles round trip to look at a boat that was called "turnkey, ready for cruising" in the ad, and yet when I got there it was anything but, and when I confronted the owner with the obvious defects he called me a tire kicker, I wanted to kick him in the tires. I was soooo angry, but it is part of the process and I was also able to visit some friends. Next time I will have the seller take a video camera on board.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Have then film that days newspaper at the start so you know it's a current video. 

A tire kicker traveling 1000 miles.


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## lgherb (Jul 2, 2006)

mark2gmtrans said:


> I recently went over 1000 miles round trip to look at a boat that was called "turnkey, ready for cruising" in the ad, and yet when I got there it was anything but, and when I confronted the owner with the obvious defects he called me a tire kicker, I wanted to kick him in the tires. I was soooo angry, but it is part of the process and I was also able to visit some friends. Next time I will have the seller take a video camera on board.


Maybe we should formulate a list of standard questions to ask any boat seller that could provide a potential scoring grade to eliminate boats you'll waste your time on.

I'm thinking of questions along the lines of:


Which marinas in your area charge the lowest price per foot for hauling out and pressure washing?
What is the current compression reading for each cylinder of your auxillary engine?
Can you provide receipts for the last time you had your fuel polished?
What is the manufacturer, model number, and serial number of the last piece of electronics that you upgraded?
How many gallons of anti-fouling paint did you buy last time you had your boat hauled out, what brand of paint was it, and how much did you spend per gallon?
Name 3 pieces of standing rigging you replaced in the last 5 years.

At the very least it might separate the owners who are actively involved in upkeep on their boats from the ones who are letting their boats die a slow, painful death.


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

After looking at a boat that appeared lightly used, my SO said, "Lightly used, lightly maintained." I could see that easily being the case. 

"If it ain't broke, don't even give it a thought."


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## juliekristine (Aug 17, 2010)

mark2gmtrans said:


> I recently went over 1000 miles round trip to look at a boat that was called "turnkey, ready for cruising" in the ad, and yet when I got there it was anything but, and when I confronted the owner with the obvious defects he called me a tire kicker, I wanted to kick him in the tires. I was soooo angry, but it is part of the process and I was also able to visit some friends. Next time I will have the seller take a video camera on board.


Sorry to hear about your journey of a 1000 miles.  At least you got to visit a friend. Were it not for him or her, I would have appreciated having the video ahead of time. It would have told you to make the trip, or save the gas.

We'll be making quite a distant trip to see boats, but also visit friends. Throw in a little sight seeing and golf, and we're still okay if we come up short on a boat that meets our needs and daydreams.

What is making our trip more worthwhile is the fact that we'll be seeing about a dozen boats made by three different builders. Seeing 3 or 4 Sabres, all in the same size and era, gives us a real basis of comparison. It should also enhance our bargaining power, I believe.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

lgherb said:


> Which marinas in your area charge the lowest price per foot for hauling out and pressure washing?
> What is the current compression reading for each cylinder of your auxillary engine?
> Can you provide receipts for the last time you had your fuel polished?
> What is the manufacturer, model number, and serial number of the last piece of electronics that you upgraded?
> ...


I doubt if even well maintained boats have their compression checked unless thier is a reason to do so.

Fuel polishing is also probably not done unless their was a special reason.

The haul out prices may not matter to someone who is happy with their marina.

I would not put much stock in electronics as even after a 5 years it is dated.

Bottom paint is important of course.
I agree that standing rigging should be on a schedule but their are lots of people who disagree with that.

I like the idea of some specific questions that give you an idea of how the owner thought in reference to caring for the boat.

Maybe we can all help put together a list.

I ask about the maintenance list. What were the last three things you have done and what are the next few things you have in mind to do but didn't get to yet.

I ask about the last time the stuffing box was serviced and why.
Last time the cutlass bearing was serviced and why.
Last time the head was serviced and why.

There seems to be two basic styles:
1. Put everything on a service schedule and try to keep ahead of it.
2. Wait until it breaks.

I like to hear:
I had the stuffing box repacked because when I bought the boat the PO didn't know when it was serviced.
It wasn't leaking but it looked good and the shaft looked good when we had it apart and repacked it so I figure we are good for 5 years.

I don't like to hear:
Yea I noticed the stuffing box was leaking really bad but we tightened up on the nut and it all better now.
No I don't know what kind of packing it has.


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

davidpm said:


> I don't like to hear:
> Yea I noticed the stuffing box was leaking really bad but we tightened up on the nut and it all better now.
> No I don't know what kind of packing it has.


And the worst kind of answer to get is "Look, I don't have time to answer all these questions. Are you interested in the boat or not?"

NOT!

No offense intended to anyone who has done this, but if you don't get answers to your questions, but spend the time and money to go look at the boat anyway, that's on you.


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## sailpower (Jun 28, 2008)

lgherb said:


> Maybe we should formulate a list of standard questions to ask any boat seller that could provide a potential scoring grade to eliminate boats you'll waste your time on.
> 
> I'm thinking of questions along the lines of:


1. Which marinas in your area charge the lowest price per foot for hauling out and pressure washing? Owner says that he doesn't know but does give you the rates for his marina. Do you reject on that basis?

2. What is the current compression reading for each cylinder of your auxiliary engine? Owner says that he has not had a compression check done. Do you reject on that basis?

3. Can you provide receipts for the last time you had your fuel polished? Owner says that his fuel has not been polished. Do you reject on that basis?

4. What is the manufacturer, model number, and serial number of the last piece of electronics that you upgraded? Owner answers the question but points out the the information for all electronics except for serial numbers is already contained in the listing. How helpful was that?

5. How many gallons of anti-fouling paint did you buy last time you had your boat hauled out, what brand of paint was it, and how much did you spend per gallon? Owner says that he has the yard do it and pays by the foot. He says that he will check with the yard but wants to know how that will affect your buying decision. Do you reject on that basis?

6. Name 3 pieces of standing rigging you replaced in the last 5 years. Owner says that, like most owners, he hasn't replaced any rigging in the last five years. Do you reject on that basis?

Scenario 2:
Owners says that he will be happy to provide any and all information prior to you making the trip. He then asks if you are in a position to buy his boat if your inspection is satisfactory? Do you retreat quickly and reject on that basis?


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"What in the world took that much money?"
Smack, hand-knotted high density purple silk shag rugs are damned expensive. So are the really beautiful exotic granite countertops. Of course that won't affect the NADA value of the boat, but, really, you need to have some compassion for the poor folk, who can't afford to install these necessities.

Now, if I was selling a boat and got that long-winded questionnaire? I'd crumble it up and throw it out along with the RFPITA picky buyer's phone number. By all means, as if there is an engine or maintenance log. It is a rare day in hell but some owners keep them, and if they keep them, the odds are what you want is in there. If the owner doesn't keep one...right, they're going to look up all that stuff and not just lie about it? They're just gonna ball up the paper and toss it.


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

While you don't learn much about the value of boats on YW or SL, you can get an idea about how serious the seller is. If the boat has been on the market a couple of years and there's no mention of a price reduction, odds are the seller is just waiting for that special buyer who is willing to pay asking price. Those sellers are often listing at the high end of asking prices.


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## nolesailor (Oct 29, 2009)

And that buyer may very well come along...not everyone approaches boat buying with spreadsheets, lenders, etc. For some it is a purely emotional purchase (myself included)...and I would be willing to pay list if that was the boat I wanted. But then again, my boat purchasing would be limited to boats that I can afford at list (or slightly less). From this thread it seems you have a fair amount of animosity towards sellers who in your opinion are over-pricing their boats (I believe you may have went so far as to say they are even wasting the buyer's time)...if it is too much for you...move on...


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

You can pay anything you want for a boat. I said that from the start. But if there's comparable boats for considerably less and you want to buy the more expensive boat... you know what P.T. Barnum said.

If a seller has listed considerably higher than the pack, is waiting for that special buyer and has no intentions to negotiate, he or she should say so in the listing. If not, the seller _*IS*_ wasting the buyer's time because the vast majority of boats do not sell for asking and (almost) everyone knows that.



nolesailor said:


> ...not everyone approaches boat buying with spreadsheets, lenders, etc.


Boy, that spreadsheet thing really sticks in the craw of some people, doesn't it?


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

The spreadsheet itself isn't a bad idea.
The questions are:

Is criteria listed in the spreadsheet realistic?
Is the size of the spreadsheet realistic (too many items to realisticly comply with)?
Are you willing to compromise on any items in the spreadsheet, or is it an "all or none" proposition?

I've met women with "checklists" for men. These women had long, unrealistic sets of criteria that they were absolutely uncompromising on. If the man didn't satisfy every criteria on that list, he wasn't a viable mate...or even a date.

These same women bemoan the lack of suitable men on the market...or boats. Take your pic.


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## TJC45 (Jul 10, 2013)

I view boat buying the way i view every major purchase. Information is the key. First to nail it down to the exact brand. Then learning the market, how it works and how things are priced. Even financing, learning the process - how interest rate collars are set for example.

An informed customer is a seller's best customer. The deal won't go south based on misperception. An informed customer knows a good deal when they find one. Knows the product and knows the process. They also know a fair deal when they are offered one. It is the uninformed that gum up the works.


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## TJC45 (Jul 10, 2013)

As for those who set unrealistic prices - the market deals with them. Noone buys their boat.

Other not so smart ways to kill the marketing of your boat, include a hard nosed comment like Price firm! or, as one recent ad read, "i have no tolerence for low ballers or tire kickers!" gee, i wonder how many call he's getting? 

The idea of marketing any product for sale is to get customer flow to your ad/site. location, product or item for sale. The last thing you want to do is say anything that will put people off. Usually, when such stand offish comments are made it indicates to me that the person is uncomfortable with the sales process, doesn't understand how it works, and is going to be difficult to negotiate with.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Actually PT Barnum wrote a good deal about how to get the most from the rubes. Some of it available in the free electronic libraries.

And he made a point to get their money up front, before they ever saw the show. If Barnum was a yacht broker, you might feel scr*wd but you _would _be smiling when you walked away. And ready to come back next year to the same guy, for another boat.

Oddly enough, good business advice.


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

JulieMor said:


> Boy, that spreadsheet thing really sticks in the craw of some people, doesn't it?


For a lot of people emotional, spur-of-the-moment purchases are an ego stroke. It makes them feel better about themselves. It annoys them when others take a more calculated approach.

(You keep your spreadsheet and I'll keep mine.  )


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

d0n, one of the many business sales programs over the years was called "TA" Transactional Analysis. To oversimplify, they break down all transactions (sales) into one of three mindsets for each party: Adult, Parent, Child. Two adults would have no problem with a spreadsheet and a rational discussion about a fair price but that leaves 2/3 of all transactions having at least one "parent" or "child" in them, and that's going to mean emotions and tantrums and rationality being only an impediment to the sale. So...

When in doubt, don't waste time negotiating. Take hostages, tie 'em up on the railroad tracks. That way everyone knows how the movie is going to end, because the cavalry don't come round any more.

And no, TA doesn't teach that. (G)


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

TJC45 said:


> The idea of marketing any product for sale is to get customer flow to your ad/site. location, product or item for sale. The last thing you want to do is say anything that will put people off. Usually, when such stand offish comments are made it indicates to me that the person is uncomfortable with the sales process, doesn't understand how it works, and is going to be difficult to negotiate with.


Just as there are buyers who aren't serious (haven't really looked at all that's involved in owning a boat) there are also are sellers who aren't serious ("I'm just curious what my boat will fetch on the market" or "Anything I own is for sale, for the right price.")

It can be hard for either party to identify that in the other party. Sometimes you have to let the chips fall where they may. For the potential buyer this process can become very costly. The brokers incur their own costs too. The seller can sit back and wait out the whole process until the right offer comes along.

That's why I think it's fair to ask the seller to be as upfront as possible but I certainly understand avoiding anything that will mark the seller as having unrealistic expectations, if in fact they don't.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Why is it such a shock that an owner would place a higher value on his boat than a potential buyer? The average of all negotiations will ultimately determine the “market value”, not some listing or book. Financial institutions do not determine market value. They do a risk analysis and the security needs to be low enough that they can recover all their costs in a repro/sale. Also, use the “blue book” and “comps” as a guide, not a bible. Unlike autos, there is way too much variation (condition/features) in a given boat model and numbers sold are not statistically significant. Besides, why would an owner low ball his asking price knowing full well that there may be a reduction resulting from a negotiation? I have never heard of a boat owner who has placed an advertisement but did not (seriously) want to sell. They do what I do, look at the listings and compare those boats to theirs. They talk to brokers just like you.

You have kicked a lot of tires out there, you are trending the asking prices as well as the settling prices. You have your spreadsheet. You know the market as well as anyone. Find a boat you like and put an offer on it for what it is worth to you and negotiate from there. You are getting a little hung up on your own “ego”. You want the perfect boat and at a below market price so you can feel good about besting someone. If you see a price that you think is way above “market value” and you don’t want to make an offer – wait the guy out an make another offer on the boat a year later. I do not know why a seller wouldn’t be “upfront” with you? Are you really want him to begin negotiating with you before you have even seen the boat? How does he know that you are serious? You could be just exercising him to give yourself leverage on another negotiation.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

When are you coming to ct.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

JulieMor said:


> That's why I think it's fair to ask the seller to be as upfront as possible but I certainly understand avoiding anything that will mark the seller as having unrealistic expectations, if in fact they don't.


Everyone approaches negotiation from a different perspective. If you like a particular boat and the seller indicates motivation by cooperating with you in your legitimate quest for more relevant information (not a struggle for dominance) and by pre-approving the contract you intend to use, then go inspect the boat and make an offer for what you believe is a reasonable price. The worst thing that will happen is a counter or no answer. Some people believe in putting a large buffer in the price in anticipation of meeting in the middle.

(By the way, "Getting to Yes", by Ury and Fisher from the Harvard Negotiation Project is undoubtedly the best manual on understanding effective negotiation.)

I bought my boat after making a written offer on another boat that was declined by the seller with a minimal movement counter. I had inspected the previous boat and took a test sail with the owner, who seemed to be a nice, decent person. The whole process took up a day of my life, but it was overall pleasant. I liked the boat and even imagined how I would sail it home, but we could not agree on price and terms. I did not spend any money other than gas money to drive to see the boat and lunch on the road.

I agree with GeorgeB - start making some offers. You are overanalyzing the boat buying process! Don't get hung up on a particular make or model or attached to the outcome, think about your purposes. Stop worrying about the brokers, who should be the least of your concerns. While you have been talking about buying about the last 2 years, the rest of us have been sailing...


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I'm going out on a limb and getting the impression, from the variety of threads you have started on this topic, that your broker(s) stink. There, I said it. 

You are also doing a lot of dating, asking your friends if they like the guy, thinking about what life would be like with each, but making no commitment. 

You've taken this seriously, that's good. That last step is never certain and takes a bit of faith. That's all there is to it.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Wow, some of this sounds so familiar...


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

George? Am I being stalked? Are you and Bubblehead one and the same? Cuz this is awfully familiar!

Whatever... Let me _*once again*_ walk you through the facts. Maybe this time they will stick so you won't have to obsess about this any longer _(doubtful)_.



GeorgeB said:


> Why is it such a shock that an owner would place a higher value on his boat than a potential buyer?


I have no idea. I'm not shocked. Why are you?



GeorgeB said:


> Besides, why would an owner low ball his asking price knowing full well that there may be a reduction resulting from a negotiation?


Again, I have no idea. Please, enlighten me!



GeorgeB said:


> I have never heard of a boat owner who has placed an advertisement but did not (seriously) want to sell. They do what I do, look at the listings and compare those boats to theirs. They talk to brokers just like you.










I've already explained this. Next!



GeorgeB said:


> You have kicked a lot of tires out there, you are trending the asking prices as well as the settling prices.


To date we have seen exactly four boats. _*Yes, a whole four boats. And two of those the broker wanted to show us to give us an idea of what's out there.*_ So we've really only seen two boats we thought we'd be interested in. And we'll see a few more before we buy. From where I come from, it's called being a smart buyer. Apparently, where you come from it's called a tire kicker because you're supposed to buy the first boat you look at. uke



GeorgeB said:


> You have your spreadsheet.


There it is again, that spreadsheet thing. Be honest, why the obsession? I'm really beginning to wonder. 



GeorgeB said:


> You know the market as well as anyone. Find a boat you like and put an offer on it for what it is worth to you and negotiate from there.


That's what we're doing. But we'll to need to see more than two boats before we jump into buying. Or are we just being unreasonable?



GeorgeB said:


> You are getting a little hung up on your own "ego". You want the perfect boat and at a below market price so you can feel good about besting someone.


Where do you get this stuff?







Give up the mind reading. It's not working.



GeorgeB said:


> If you see a price that you think is way above "market value" and you don't want to make an offer - wait the guy out an make another offer on the boat a year later.


Wait for a year when there's boats that could be bought now? But you said in other posts to hurry up and buy a boat already! You really need to be more consistent.



GeorgeB said:


> Are you really want him to begin negotiating with you before you have even seen the boat?


No, of course not. That would be stupid. How did you arrive at that nutty conclusion?



GeorgeB said:


> How does he know that you are serious?


If you travel a couple thousand miles to see the boat, I'd say the average seller would know you're not doing that just for grins. Though Mark did say he got called a tire kicker for doing the same thing. :laugher



GeorgeB said:


> You could be just exercising him to give yourself leverage on another negotiation.


That makes no sense at all. If you want to waste your time doing that, by all means, go ahead! We've got better things to do.

To the rest of you guys, I don't think you've really read everything I wrote. I know the longer a post, the less likely it will be read in its entirety. So any attempt to explain in detail the facts would most likely be a waste of time.

All I can tell you is the assumptions many of you have made are just that, assumptions. If you knew all the facts, you wouldn't have arrived at the conclusions you have.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

GeorgeB said:


> I have never heard of a boat owner who has placed an advertisement but did not (seriously) want to sell. They do what I do, look at the listings and compare those boats to theirs. They talk to brokers just like you.


I have to disagree with you here. I think there are lots of "well if I can get this much for my boat, I can take advantage of the down market and get a bigger/better boat." But they are not factoring in the fact that there boat has fallen as well. I don't think that is being serious about selling. Then there is the "honey I posted an add and showed the boat to 10 people in the last 4 years, it is not my fault it is a down market, lets go sailing since we can't sell her." They intentionally give a high price, so it will not sell. An example is a boat I mentioned in another thread, a 1973 Carter 33 asking $95,000. Now there is no way they are serious about selling, unless they are totally delusional. I even replied assuming it was a typo, as the last one I saw on Craigslist was around 10,000 granted it needed work but was there for months before it sold, or they stopped posting it.

The thing I don't understand are the brokers that take these guys on as clients. It costs them money to advertize the boat, and take photos and show the boat, yet they must realize it will not sell for years if ever. I know one local broker that if the boat does not sell the first year, and you don't make a substantial drop in price he will stop listing it. So perhaps they are hoping reality will set in and they drop the price dramatically.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Julie, First off, check out my avatar, I’m much better looking than Bubblehead. I’m sorry that you think that I am “stalking” you. I thought that you were soliciting help and a sounding board to aid you in your search. If I’m bothering you, I’ll won’t offer any further help. I usually don’t have a lot of time to thoroughly read all the threads and I didn’t realize that you haven’t really started to look at boats. From the angst I detected in your writings I thought you were much further along. Good luck on your search and enjoy the hunt!

In the “for what’s it’s worth department”: I am deeply connected into the brokerage community here in the Bay Area. When we talk “shop” I get an earful from the broker’s point of view. Sometimes understanding things from other’s experience can be very helpful in your own situation. I like spreadsheets. I bet my database is way more extensive than yours. My spreadsheet calculates all the standard ratios as well as things like the PHRF regression formula, PacCup ratings and the OYRA offshore formula. I mine databases like sailboatdata.com. Though I am most connected to Catalina (Farallone Yachts) I can also give referrals to Sail California (JBoat and Jeaneau), and Passage Yachts (Beneteau). If you are interested, PM me and I will send you the referral information.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

As I stated previously, I am well connected in our local brokerage community here in the Bay Area. Granted, these are higher end brokers (they will occasionally list boats under $50k). I have never heard of a seller listing with any one of them and not intending to go through with a sale. Perhaps someone with more experience or knowledge in the lower end of the market can illuminate this for me. The biggest broker complaint with sellers (other than an unrealistic expectation of price and value) is sellers not prepping their boat for resale. I would guess the vast majority of used boats being sold are from owners either too old or ill to maintain them or by owners who long ago lost interest in keeping them up. These owners are not very interested putting time, effort and money into something they are trying to get rid of. As buyers, we will all eventually become sellers so hopefully, we can all remember the lessons we learned during our own buying experience.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Actually, I once wanted to visit a boat that was listed way below market. The broker stalled me for a month and the listing disappeared. It came back a few months later at a much higher price. 

Turns out the broker was conspiring with the seller to reduce value in a divorce. He had sold the boat to him as new and done many deals with him over the years. The seller listed it low and was able to say it didn't sell. Then, once the divorce was finalized, they raised the price by $100k and started accepting visitors. I can only assume his wife or her attorney didn't follow. OTOH, I learned who it was and the settlement was likely in the millions anyway. May not have mattered in the grand scheme of things.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Julie, 

OK, I'm confused. It seems that you have been looking for boats for two years, and posting hundreds of messages on the subject, including many that seem to indicate you've built up a very high level of frustration with sellers, and others explaining your theories of why so many boats are overpriced. You seem to think you've got this whole thing figured out, and you know just why those awful sellers do things to waste buyers' time.

Now you say that you've only actually looked at four boats.

Perhaps there were assumptions that led to my confusion, but you should be sensitive to the way all this looks. If you've only looked at four boats, your learning process - and your frustration - is only beginning. You are WAY over-analyzing this at such an early stage of your shopping process.

One thing I know from message boards is that once someone's messages start insisting "let me repeat myself once again," or "you obviously didn't understand what I posted before," it's time to take a breather and ask yourself who needs to listen better. You've also upped the ante by accusing some knowledgeable people of stalking you and/or posting under fake IDs. That's pretty serious stuff, and will really make people more reluctant to spend time helping you.

You may want to think about this for awhile before posting that next message.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

Wow! The OP looked at a total of 4 boats. How could anyone determine boat values, condition, broker credibility with such a small effort on a seemingly huge life decision?

No good brokers in a major metropolitan area? No great values on sailboats in a down market. All the sailboats are over priced and in poor condition? Unreasonable seller expectations on what they want out of their pride and joy?

Sorry, I don't buy it.

Maybe the brokers can see and smell you from a mile away. Another time waster, tire kicker, looky loo. Somebody that has not made the decision to become an owner, needs everything spelled out, wants all risk to to be abrogated to somebody else, has all the reasons not to buy located in some endless spreads.

Summer is almost over, maybe you should wait until next year, then youl'l have saved a few more bob, gotten a year older etc....missed out on a lot more sailing.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

What is your_ TIME _worth?


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

_I realize the thread has strayed off topic but I was hoping to clear things up._

Up to now I have believed that if you make an offer on a boat you must put down a 10% deposit. The broker went through the whole process with us and that's what I took away from it.

As I read the frequently given advice to "just make an offer," I started to wonder if I understood the process correctly. Believing that you need to put that 10% earnest money down, it made no sense to me to start making offers until I at least saw some boats. And putting down 10% for every boat we saw made ZERO sense!

Stepping aboard a Sabre 34 and a C&C 37+ a few weeks ago told me those pictures we saw on Yachtworld weren't very representative of the real thing. So physically seeing the boat became mandatory, for us.

The broker showed us a sold Ericson 34 because he thought the Ericson line might fit what we were looking for. We both liked it but wanted a bit more room and the Ericson 38 entered the scene. This was four weeks ago.

From there we found an Ericson 38 in MD that really interested me. But I knew I had to see it. So I've been patiently







waiting for my SO to get some time work off so we can.

Two weeks after the first showing, we inspected a newly listed E38 that was priced at the high end, and we'd have to pour thousands into it. No sense in making an offer unless we came back from our trip empty handed.

_BTW, we learned when YW pictures are recent, the real boat can actually look like the pictures. But if the pictures are dated..._

As far as the "over analyzing" thing? I'm retired. I'm just occupying time until we leave for the coast.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

The 10% deposit seems to have been cleared up, but I missed it. Just in case....... You don't send 10% with our first offer. You send it with the contract as soon as your offer is accepted, otherwise, you don't know what you're sending 10% of.


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## sailpower (Jun 28, 2008)

10% deposit has been industry standard for many years, usually accompanied by your first offer to purchase. Most but not all brokers did not deposit your check until and if there was an accepted offer. The check simply demonstrated good faith and often required a second, updated check once the counter offer was agreed to.

In order to streamline this sometimes cumbersome process and to facilitate more offers, the Florida Yacht Brokers Association has changed their purchase contracts to reflect that the deposit must be received within three business days of the seller signing the agreement. YBAA might have done the same but not sure.

Now it is much easier to make an offer.

BTW, generally you wouldn’t make simultaneous offers on more than one boat. What if they were all accepted?


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## TJC45 (Jul 10, 2013)

Buying a boat of that size is a big step. And once bought, a decision you'll live with for a long time. Personally, I see nothing wrong with analysing the hell out of it and taking your time.


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

Minnewaska said:


> The 10% deposit seems to have been cleared up, but I missed it. Just in case....... You don't send 10% with our first offer. You send it with the contract as soon as your offer is accepted, otherwise, you don't know what you're sending 10% of.


The way I understood it was when you went to make an offer, you took 10% of that offer and placed it as good faith so the seller knows you're serious.

Thanks for clearing that up!

Edit: We've been having some disagreement here, based on this new information (to us) and what we understood with our time with the broker. Just to clarify...

The Yacht Purchase Sales Agreement does not come into play until both parties have agreed on a price. Correct? And this document is not used until that time?

Is the offer then just verbal?


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

sailpower said:


> 10% deposit has been industry standard for many years, usually accompanied by your first offer to purchase. Most but not all brokers did not deposit your check until and if there was an accepted offer. The check simply demonstrated good faith and often required a second, updated check once the counter offer was agreed to.
> 
> In order to streamline this sometimes cumbersome process and to facilitate more offers, the Florida Yacht Brokers Association has changed their purchase contracts to reflect that the deposit must be received within three business days of the seller signing the agreement. YBAA might have done the same but not sure.
> 
> ...


This is how we've been looking at it. So no sense making an offer until you are satisfied this is the boat you want. Tough to do after seeing only a few boats.

The idea of making several offers just to test the seller never occurred to us but the repeated advice to make an offer made me wonder if some did it that way.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

I think some of the advice to "just make an offer" was made before it was known that you have only seen four boats. It would not be unusual for someone to look at 40 or 50 boats before making an offer. Although it's certainly possible you've already seen the right boat for you, it would be very unusual to make an offer after only seeing four boats. Don't let others rush you into this.

When I bought my boat, we did a shopping trip every weekend for about four months. (Some of those trips were chronicled here, with some similar frustrations to what you have shown.)

I can't remember how many boats we saw, but here's an estimate: 16 trips (different brokerages from Norfolk, VA to Kingston, NY) x 4-6 boats per trip = 64 to 96 boats. 

Like you, we turned each trip into an excuse to have some fun, partly to ease the pain of seeing rotting, neglected, moldy hull carcasses being passed off as sail-away condition.

FYI, I also placed offers on 3 or 4 boats along the way, but I'm glad they were rejected because they were too big for the type of daysailing that our busy lives restrict us to.

Take your time and find the right boat. You might want to focus on gaining experience looking without worrying about price for awhile.

FYI, the Catalina 250 that we bought was a sister ship of the first boat we looked at. However, the first one had some issues that we were unwilling to accept. The specimen we ended up buying was one year newer (significant, because Catalina made some significant upgrades in our model year) and in much better condition. It was also located at the exact same marina as the first one we saw, although ours was a FSBO, not a brokerage boat.

The broker that showed us the first boat had "sized us up" perfectly - he just didn't have the right specimen of boat at the time. The fact that we bought the same model boat from someone else at his own marina frustrated him a bit, and I tease him about it at every boat show. I don't think he minds, because he's a nice guy and he knows I'll likely come his way for my next boat.


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## mark2gmtrans (May 14, 2013)

Julie, please do not let the ones who seem to think you need to rush to spend thousands of dollars of* YOUR* money to purchase a boat before you know enough about it to make a good decision influence you.

I have been in the business of buying and selling things for a long time, I have done it full time and part time for most of my adult life and it is about 25% of my annual income, and I can say without a doubt, I will look at whatever number of boats I choose to look at before I spend* MY* money, and you know why I can do this, just like you can, because it is bloody well my time and my money and I will do with it as I please.

I have sold more vehicles than I can even remember, and quite a few boats, and other things, and guess what? I know that not everyone who looks is going to buy, I can only sell each piece one time, and then it is gone, so I do not worry about it, I treat every single person as though that person were the very last one who would look, being the one that would purchase the thing I am selling. I never underestimate a person's ability to choose whether or not to buy based on how they liked the thing I am selling as well as how they liked me. I am not always patient in everything I do, but man I sure work hard to be patient with those who potentially may give me a chunk of their money.

I have told you about how I have looked at boats where the photos were old and the boat was a wreck when I got to see it. It happens all the time, in fact yesterday I was looking at several boats on yachtworld and a couple of other sites and saw some with photos that were quite obviously taken in the late 60's when the boat was new, seeing this I called the broker and asked to have some recent photos taken, he said the seller could not provide them. I thanked him for his time and informed him that I was no longer interested, you see I know that if the seller cannot be bothered to give me a true representation of the vessel, he has not taken care of it.

I also will not consider a boat where all of the photos were taken with a fisheye lense, this distorts the true size and condition of the vessel. If the seller will not provide clear, undistorted photos, I do not have the time anymore to go look at the boat. One trip that took an entire weekend of my time was enough to break me of doing those things. I have to weigh the value of my time, and three days to me is equal to about $2k in missed earnings, I am not going to waste my time with those who will not provide me with the information I need. I have shown my financials to a couple of brokers I am dealing with to show that I am well qualified, and I have talked in depth with them about what I am looking for in a vessel, they know I am serious, and I know it. Outside of the buyer, the seller, and the intermediaries like brokers and bankers no one else need be convinced of your seriousness, and a lot of the ones squawking the most are probably the same ones trying to skin someone on a used boat, after all, everyone knows it is still a buyers market and it is not going to get any better for sellers any time soon. Good thing we are shopping to buy and not trying to sell.


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## sailpower (Jun 28, 2008)

JulieMor said:


> Just to clarify...
> 
> The Yacht Purchase Sales Agreement does not come into play until both parties have agreed on a price. Correct? And this document is not used until that time?
> 
> Is the offer then just verbal?


No. The Yacht Purchase and Sales Agreement is the document that you sign when you make your offer. Along with your offered price it spells out the contingencies and timeline associated with your offer.

The back and forth is then usually verbal until there is agreement at which point the purchase agreement is brought up to date and ratified.

Most but not all do it this way.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Nuances.

Big huge expensive boats are more formal than less expensive boats. 

In Julie's price range, a verbal offer that clarified whether there was a finance contingency and a promise to send the contract and good faith deposit right behind it, should suffice. But, it is the sellers call.

For that matter, when I made my offer on this boat, the seller, my broker, the seller's broker and me were all in 4 different, non-contiguous states. The offer was not held up by the speed of the post office. I committed that the check would go in the mail to my broker today. The offer was brought forward without it. We did haggle for a week or two, in which time the check was not cashed. I don't think the brokers want the responsibility for the actual cash, unless there is an actual deal.

However, my broker was able to vouch for me, as we had just gone through survey on another that failed. He knew I was good for it.


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## sailpower (Jun 28, 2008)

Minnewaska said:


> Nuances.
> 
> Big huge expensive boats are more formal than less expensive boats.
> 
> ...


Professional brokers generally treat 50K offers the same as 50M offers. i.e. in writing with contingencies spelled out. Sure it is occasionally more relaxed depending on circumstances but overall it is mostly done in writing.

Professional Broker organizations such as FYBA, CYBA and YBAA require their members to proceed this way as protection for all parties.

BTW, it wasn't necessary to be in the same place to obtain the signatures although after the third or fourth faxing it might as well have been verbal! Today, scanners and email have solved the legibility issues and there is now transaction software coming on line that will really make things easier..


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I think there are only two professional brokers in the wild right now, one is sick and the other is out cruising. The rest just call themselves brokers. 

I sense there might be subtle differences by region. Ultimately, you must have a contract and 10% deposit. That seems a constant. Whether an offer will be communicated verbally, might depend on circumstance. 

I guess, if no party really knows you or you appear to be a tire kicker, the process can get more formal. If it's a broker you've used before, as I have, they are the one that is going to hold the money anyway. The seller never sees it until closing. In fact, never sees it at all, since it is the same as the brokers commission. Its sort of silly to have an uncashed check sitting on the desk of a buy side broker the seller has never met.

Regardless of formality, they always present the offer verbally, even if they have it in writing and check in hand. They want to communicate what the paper never does. This is a good buyer. Your boat may not sell for another decade. Etc. They do want to get a deal done to be paid.

There is an irony to proferring in writing. While the seller may not accept a verbal offer, the buyer really doesn't have a committed seller until they receive the contract signed by the seller. 

The contract ties the seller hands more than the buyers.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

mark2gmtrans said:


> Julie, please do not let the ones who seem to think you need to rush to spend thousands of dollars of* YOUR* money to purchase a boat before you know enough about it to make a good decision influence you. <snip>


I don't think anyone here advised Julie to just "make an offer" on any old, crappy boat. In fact, in my posts I said that I totally respect her desire to make a smart purchase. What I, and some others have said, is that she's gone to the total other end of the spectrum into total inaction.

There are an awful lot of boats on the market, even of the type that Julie is looking for, and in all this time, they've only looked at _four_ boats. They're at/near the Great Lakes, where there are scads of large, sweet water boats with low hours on them. I could be wrong, but I would think that a serious buyer would have at least physically visited many more boats by now.

She's having more fun tweaking paperwork and studying the boat buying process instead of actually examining boats.

Yes, yes, we're all well aware by now, of your impeccable buying and selling credentials. We've all read your epic tale of how you bested a car dealership at their own game after days and days and long nights of negotiations. Congratulations.

Plenty of your knowledge does apply to buying large sailboats and some of it probably does not apply.

I really was done with commenting on this thread, but I felt that I was implicitly being lumped into the "just do it" category, incorrectly.

Really, I don't see how one could accurately compile a spreadsheet merely by sitting on the sofa, without visiting many sailboats to get a true sense of the interior/exterior dimensions, equipment, prices, conditions, etc. Raw numbers from the internet do not accurately translate into how you _feel_ when you stand inside the boat.

If I were buying an SUV, I would visit many dealers while compiling my spreadsheet, instead of just sitting at home reading about them on the web.


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## wingNwing (Apr 28, 2008)

TakeFive said:


> I think some of the advice to "just make an offer" was made before it was known that you have only seen four boats. It would not be unusual for someone to look at 40 or 50 boats before making an offer. Although it's certainly possible you've already seen the right boat for you, it would be very unusual to make an offer after only seeing four boats. Don't let others rush you into this.
> 
> When I bought my boat, we did a shopping trip every weekend for about four months. (Some of those trips were chronicled here, with some similar frustrations to what you have shown.)
> 
> ...


I'm going to offer a contrary opinion to the idea of spending time looking at lots of boats, just because I can. A broker that will show you dozens of boats is wasting your time and his/hers flailing around looking for a boat that might work. Far preferable, to me, is a broker that gets to know our needs well enough, "sized us up" as TakeFive says, that he only needs to show us a couple of boats because he's already sorted through what's available and narrowed it down to things that meet the needs we've discussed.

In fact, when we bought the boat we've been living on for the last 11 years, we didn't have to really "look" at all. Based on our criteria, we narrowed it down to just two or three models, then it was merely a matter of waiting for the right example of this particular boat to come up on the market in our price range. As soon as it did, we got an email; a quick back-and-forth to verify condition, and the contract was in place.


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

Few thoughts for the OP ...

The process depends a lot on how you are buying the boat, if it is with cash you can do whatever you want, if it is a loan then you are more limited.

The boat isn't a house, it is a nearly useless thing that costs money, so it is better not to approach it like buying a house. Boats are not "investments" (unless it is an oil tanker or freighter or something). The broker wants you to think of it as if you are buying a vacation home, but really it is more like buying used jewelry that you have to pay someone hundreds of dollars a month to store for you.

The buyer has all of the power in a boat purchase, the seller none, see above.

I think the best way to buy a boat is to ignore the asking price, don't even look at it, and just look at the boat and decide what it is worth to YOU. Once you do that you can take the seller's asking price into consideration, it may be that the price is a good asking price, or they may be asking way too much, but that's all their problem and has nothing to do with you and your money. Make an offer based on what you think the boat is worth to you, don't worry about insulting the seller.

If the seller is unreasonable, there's always another boat ... just walk away, life is too short and boats are too expensive to deal with pushy sellers.

During a recession all of the above x 10.

The people who scold you about trying to save money, etc, are brokers, or they were brokers, ignore them.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

wingNwing said:


> I'm going to offer a contrary opinion to the idea of spending time looking at lots of boats, just because I can. A broker that will show you dozens of boats is wasting your time and his/hers flailing around looking for a boat that might work. Far preferable, to me, is a broker that gets to know our needs well enough, "sized us up" as TakeFive says, that he only needs to show us a couple of boats because he's already sorted through what's available and narrowed it down to things that meet the needs we've discussed.
> 
> In fact, when we bought the boat we've been living on for the last 11 years, we didn't have to really "look" at all. Based on our criteria, we narrowed it down to just two or three models, then it was merely a matter of waiting for the right example of this particular boat to come up on the market in our price range. As soon as it did, we got an email; a quick back-and-forth to verify condition, and the contract was in place.


No time to go into great detail now, but a quick comment.

I think buying your FIRST boat is a very different process from buying your NEXT boat. The first time you have a lot of learning to do that can only be accomplished by visiting a lot of specimens. Once you have a boat and have sailed for a number of years, you have a very good idea what you're looking for in the next boat, and you've already narrowed it down. Plus, you're already sailing so if it takes time for the right one to come along, you're not missing out on much.

A first boat buyer has NOTHING, so a lengthy process means missed sailing seasons. He also has less knowledge, so can't narrow it down as fast.


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## wingNwing (Apr 28, 2008)

Spot on, TakeFive; Julie has so much sailing experience, that I forget this is the first boat for her and S.O.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> We did haggle for a week or two, in which time the check was not cashed. I don't think the brokers want the responsibility for the actual cash, unless there is an actual deal.


The way I understand it is that the deposit check is not cashed until the closing and then it is cashed by the broker as the deposit and brokers fee is both 10%. Some however deposit the check into an escrow account.

As soon as the broker has the signed contract from the seller I believe the seller is committed. IE he can't back out of the deal without paying the 10% to the broker. 
If however the buyer wants to back out, from a practical point of view that can happen anytime before the closing.
I know a guy who faxed in a copy of his deposit check. That was enough for the broker to have the contract written and signed by the seller committing the seller.
The buyer then changed his mind and bought a motorcycle. The broker was annoyed but nothing was done.
Even if the broker had a real check the guy could have issued a stop order on it as I believe they are not cashed until the closing. In any event I'm pretty sure the concept of a deposit check is mostly psychological as I doubt they are forfeited too often.

Has anyone heard of a deposit check being forfeited? It must have happened and would be a good story.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

Most brokers will have an escrow account where deposit funds are held. Sometimes the actual closing, final disbursement of funds may take additional time when survey findings need to be taken care of. On my purchase there were several items that needed to be remedied before the deal was closed. My check was cashed into the escrow account. When all survey items were completed, the balance due was paid and everybody was happy.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

JulieMor said:


> As far as the "over analyzing" thing? I'm retired. I'm just occupying time until we leave for the coast.


I don't know if it is true but I heard many years ago that in Japan the men worked such long hours that they left buying a new house up to their wife.
She would find the house arrange the move and text him at work the new address so he would come home to the correct house.

You are retired so don't wait. Go boat shopping.

With today's cameras you can stream your SO some video and put in an offer.
If you are really worried about it just put pending survey, pending financing and pending SO approval in the offer.

Just a thought.
We all know you are going to get the boat you want anyway. 
Easy Peasy, it is a lot cheaper and faster to travel alone anyway.
If you picked up one of these http://www.gowinnebago.com/
could you image how many boats you could look at if you just went driving for a couple months.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Escrow accounts are mandatory IMO. For a relatively small fee, they insure all funds and documents are accumulated before disbursing. They will also do title searches and properly file for whatever State or Federal title you're looking for. However, ones I've used required me to do my own registration, which you typically have several months to do.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

Minnewaska said:


> Escrow accounts are mandatory IMO. For a relatively small fee, they insure all funds and documents are accumulated before disbursing. They will also do title searches and properly file for whatever State or Federal title you're looking for. However, ones I've used required me to do my own registration, which you typically have several months to do.


Marine Title in Seattle provides this service. They act as an intermediary between you, the broker and banks or finance companies. They will do the title search before funds change hands and receive funds from the bank to disburse to the owner, other banks and financial institutions who may hold a fiduciary interest in the vessel. Important to understand WHO really owns the property and if there are any outstanding liens as well. These may include Mechanics, Marinas, State tax authorities and sometimes the estates and property interests of spouse or family members. If you finance a vessel and pay off the note, you will also be issued with a "Satisfaction of Mortgage" note. This should kept with your original bill of sale documents. USCG documentation is only part of the ownership documentation process.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

Ideally, the earnest money should be deposited into an escrow account upon full ratification of the contract (fully signed and initialed after all counters accepted). It stands as security for performance of the contract and may be designated as liquidated damages by the seller and buyer in the event of a default.

In the event of a dispute as to a breach of contract, the money should be deposited with the clerk of court in a proceeding known as an interpleader action, where the third party escrow agent tenders payment to the court to release its liability and all parties with a claim to it, seller, buyer and broker, assert their rights to it.

Some brokers may not have the balls or the desire to act as a true escrow agent, which exposes them to liability and becomes messy and expensive if a dispute arises, and therefore never deposit the check, because they do not want to have to file an interpleader action. Instead, they may encourage everyone to sign a release (which, of course, includes a release of all liability of the broker by all!). After all, their interest is in putting the boat back on the market, not being involved in litigation.

If you are the seller and the buyer breaches the contract, you may have a right to the deposit, and you may have a cause of action against your escrow agent for failing to deposit the earnest money. On the other side, a buyer may sue for damages, or, in some instances, specific performance, if the subject matter of the contract is unique, or damages would be inadequate. In some jurisdictions, the remedy of specific performance may be available only with respect to real property.

There is a reason why we have contracts - real written contracts - and deposits; this is where the rubber meets the road and there is money at stake for performance of the agreement according to its terms. Pretending you have deal and holding a check, while the buyer spends umpteen dollars on a haul out or launch, marine survey, rigging survey, engine survey, sea trial, and any other evaluations is a sucker play for buyers who are willing to be led around by the nose by the process.


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

jameswilson29 said:


> Ideally, the earnest money should be deposited into an escrow account upon full ratification of the contract (fully signed and initialed after all counters accepted).


I agree with James on this, you don't write a check to go look at a boat, you put money into escrow once the deal has been worked out. The back and forth of offer and counter-offer is just a conversation, it can happen on paper, or over a drink at a restaurant, none of it matters until someone signs it. I also don't understand buyers who sign offers, why would you do that ? Sure, send them the offer, but there's no reason for anyone to sign anything until both the buyer and seller reach an agreement on what the deal is. Brokers are the ones who force all of this because they just want the buyer and seller to get on with it so they can get their money, so they'll do anything to hurry it along.


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## sailpower (Jun 28, 2008)

Buyers and sellers can deal with each other any way that they choose.

Brokers can’t. They are agents and bound by agency law. It really is that simple. There is opinion being passed around here as knowledge that is just inaccurate. Deposits become cleared funds generally after ratification but prior to satisfaction of contingencies. Those cleared funds are held in the brokers escrow account (By law) until disbursed as per the ratified contract. Yes, there are exceptions to every rule but brokers are required to have and use escrow accounts in every state that I am aware of. 

Now, all of you who believe that brokers are just crooks can stop reading here.

Reputable brokers belong to various professional groups depending on where they are located. The largest are the California Yacht Brokers Association, The Florida Yacht Brokers Association and the Yacht Brokers Association of America.

These associations all have rules of conduct and ethical standards which the members are bound by. In addition Florida and I believe, California, require brokers to be bonded and licensed.

Unfortunately there are always cowboys and undesirables in every industry. That means that buyers and sellers need to do their due diligence when entering into business relationships. It’s not that hard to do. A rudimentary approach would be to deal only with brokers who belong to a professional association. It’s not foolproof but a good start.

Open up a Yachting Magazine or Power & Motoryacht and look at what is being advertised for sale. Do you really think that these companies are owned and staffed by crooks? How would it be possible for fraud of the magnitude suggested here and on other forums of this type, for them to still be in business?

OTOH, the value of the boats being discussed here are generally at the lower end of the market. That means that in some cases you would not be dealing with the cream of the crop. Often brokers at this level are newer, part time or just marking time. I said often but I don’t mean all. There are also some very good people who simply like to deal in this product. Sometimes it takes some looking. If you find someone that you trust, use them, otherwise you are at the mercy of the listing agents that you call directly. Your choice.

IMO, Julie has come a long way. She started out posting her assumptions as fact but has since discovered that the process is a lot more complex than she realized. 

At the end of the day you are buying a commodity not some mystical thing with special rules. 

During this process people that you deal with are going to make money as the result of your purchase. If you believe that is bad then do something else with your money. Again, your choice.


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

sailpower said:


> Now, all of you who believe that brokers are just crooks can stop reading here.


Are you or have you ever been a broker ?

It seems like that information would be important to anyone who was reading your spirited defense.


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## sailpower (Jun 28, 2008)

Yes and it is not a "defense". It is an accurate explanation of how the process works and how the parties interact.


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

sailpower said:


> wind_magic said:
> 
> 
> > Are you or have you ever been a broker ?
> ...


You are entitled to your opinion, of course.

I'm sure you won't mind if I continue to hold my own opinion.



wind_magic said:


> The people who scold you about trying to save money, etc, are brokers, or they were brokers, ignore them.


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## sailpower (Jun 28, 2008)

wind_magic said:


> You are entitled to your opinion, of course.
> 
> I'm sure you won't mind if I continue to hold my own opinion.





wind_magic said:


> The people who scold you about trying to save money, etc, are brokers, or they were brokers, ignore them


Of course not. It's the internet. Your opinion doesn't even have to be relevant to my comments which, based on your quoted text, it is not.

For example, I haven't scolded Julie for trying to save money.

In the interest of full disclosure shouldn't you also post your own bona fides relating to your own expertise on this topic? It seems like that information would be important to anyone who was reading your spirited defense.


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## tomandchris (Nov 11, 2009)

I am always amazed by people that make an assumption and state is as fact...whether it be their fact is irrelevant.

So, all brokers are lazy, thieves, uneducated, whatevers? All sailors are cheap and go slow because they are afraid of going fast? All powerboaters are assholes? All lawyers are crooks? All salespeople fool around? Doctors, plumbers, electricians, (fill in the blank) are out to screw you? Great way to go through life!

There are good and bad in every profession.....including those who make these statements. Of course, they have a tendency to not bring that up. The key is to weed through the vendor, no matter what they are, and get to the good ones. If you didn't like doctors but needed a heart transplant to live, who is doing the surgery?

Oh, and yes, I have met some very good and honest used car salespeople.


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

sailpower said:


> Of course not. It's the internet. Your opinion doesn't even have to be relevant to my comments which, based on your quoted text, it is not.
> 
> For example, I haven't scolded Julie for trying to save money.
> 
> In the interest of full disclosure shouldn't you also post your own bona fides relating to your own expertise on this topic? It seems like that information would be important to anyone who was reading your spirited defense.


My bona fides are as a forum member with over 4000 posts on Sailnet who has participated in a lot of boat buying, contracts, type threads, and has seen brokers pop in from time to time to "explain the rules", rules that invariably benefit the broker.

You said you weren't scolding Julie about trying to save money, but it sure seems like you were trying to justify a broker's role, and their commission, and you were clearly describing a process that a person would have to engage a broker to complete.



> During this process people that you deal with are going to make money as the result of your purchase. If you believe that is bad then do something else with your money. Again, your choice.


If you feel I am too sensitive on the subject, I encourage you to go back and read through the boat buying threads on this forum. There are countless examples of brokers trying to convince buyers to purchase new instead of used, insist on surveys for very inexpensive boats that don't need them, engage in unnecessary legalese when a handshake would suffice, over-commit to deals before it is time, buy a boat when they aren't ready to commit, buy boats for their resale value instead of their pointing ability, buy beam instead of draft, over-insuring when it isn't necessary, and a lot of other stuff that involves spending money that doesn't come out of the broker's pocket, or buying a boat that doesn't fit the buyer.


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## sailpower (Jun 28, 2008)

Actually, Wind, I am not trying to get Julie to do anything. I have been answering her questions regarding the process when she does use a broker.

I have no skin in the game. I haven't sold sailboats in many years and would not be the go to person for a sailboat purchase. I participate in these forums to be helpful not to make money. I would not represent anyone here if asked. I would and do answer questions about the process both here and offline. I often look up sold boat data when asked and always explain that the recorded prices may or may not be accurate. I know some particularly skilled survey and finance people and share those names when requested. I also know some knowledgeable and reputable brokers on the east coast and provide that when asked. I am always anonymous so there is no referral fee or anything like that.

I appreciate that you have over 4,000 posts expressing your opinion but wouldn’t that simply make you an expert on expressing it?

I have been involved in 100’s of transaction in over twenty years in the marine industry so have a broad base of knowledge and experience to draw on. This I offer gratis when appropriate. How about you?

You seem to have taken exception to my comments so why not address your disagreement specifically and stop wondering what my motives might be?

Better yet, why not also share your own personal experiences about the many times that you have been wronged? That would be useful, real world information for many.


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

sailpower said:


> Actually, Wind, I am not trying to get Julie to do anything. I have been answering her questions regarding the process when she does use a broker.
> 
> I have no skin in the game. I haven't sold sailboats in many years and would not be the go to person for a sailboat purchase. I participate in these forums to be helpful not to make money. I would not represent anyone here if asked. I would and do answer questions about the process both here and offline. I often look up sold boat data when asked and always explain that the recorded prices may or may not be accurate. I know some particularly skilled survey and finance people and share those names when requested. I also know some knowledgeable and reputable brokers on the east coast and provide that when asked. I am always anonymous so there is no referral fee or anything like that.


I wasn't accusing you of talking your book. I said that because of your experience as a broker you are going to see the world from a broker's perspective, which isn't appropriate for a good percentage of the boat purchases that people discuss here.



> I appreciate that you have over 4,000 posts expressing your opinion but *wouldn't that simply make you an expert on expressing it?*


Clearly. 

And yet it also seems to have given me the ability to know when a broker is giving advice to someone in a boat buying thread ...



> I have been involved in 100's of transaction in over twenty years in the marine industry so have a broad base of knowledge and experience to draw on. This I offer gratis when appropriate. How about you?


Doesn't that prove my point ?



> You seem to have taken exception to my comments so why not address your disagreement specifically and stop wondering what my motives might be?


Not at all, I agree with most (maybe all ?) of what you wrote, if someone is buying an expensive boat and needs a broker. I think that is increasingly unnecessary for the same reasons that real estate brokers are becoming less important. Yes, 100 years ago when you had to send a letter to someone so they could find the property you were looking for brokers were indispensable, but now that MLS is online for real estate, and many boat advertisements are online, what is a broker actually doing for you ? It used to be that you couldn't complete a real estate transaction without a broker because the broker was the only one who even knew what real estate was for sale, but now if you listen to real estate brokers talk they sound more like therapists who are there to lead everyone through the oh so complex process of doing a title search and handing someone a check for title insurance and to close the deal, and then bringing everyone together for a group hug at the end. Does everyone really need a group hug for 3-6% ?



> Better yet, why not also share your own personal experiences about the many times that you have been wronged? That would be useful, real world information for many.


I haven't had a bad experience, I bought my last boat with a handshake.


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## tomandchris (Nov 11, 2009)

Wind, if a broker on this site had over 4000 posts would that make him/her the expert? Number of posts is irrelevnat to most of us. Over the years there have been many people on this site that have made 4000 look small. Some of them were great resourses and are missed. Some of them just had too much time and liked to argue...they are not missed!

So, does anyone know where SD is? He had a ton of posts and most of them were very relevant even when you got under his skin. His advise I miss.


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

tomandchris said:


> Wind, if a broker on this site had over 4000 posts would that make him/her the expert? Number of posts is irrelevnat to most of us. Over the years there have been many people on this site that have made 4000 look small. Some of them were great resourses and are missed. Some of them just had too much time and liked to argue...they are not missed!
> 
> So, does anyone know where SD is? He had a ton of posts and most of them were very relevant even when you got under his skin. His advise I miss.


Again, the point is well taken.

But I am not claiming to be an expert on buying/selling boats by saying that I have 4000+ posts, what I am claiming is to know how these threads evolve.


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## sailpower (Jun 28, 2008)

Wind, to recap, Julie has been asking here and on other sites about the boat buying process. She is already working with a broker. That was her choice before she started posting. Whether that is appropriate to you based on what you think might be her price point I can’t answer. You will have to offer up your unsolicited opinion to a question that she hasn’t even asked directly to her on that.

What I have been doing is attempting to answer her and others specific process questions not persuade her that she should be going about this another way. I will leave that to you or those whose goal it is to increase their post count. So, yes, I am giving advice on a boat buying thread. Unlike your responses however, mine are directed towards the actual questions asked.

As I said before, there is lots of opinion masquerading as knowledge on these sites. You yourself have apparently not used a broker but have felt it necessary to post thousands of times on the topic. Good for you but not the way I do business. I’ll stick with what I know not what I assume.

Whether someone should or should not use a broker I will leave to those directly involved. My opinion on that would be as meaningless as most so no need to take up bandwidth with what, in fact, was not even the topic of this thread.

OTOH, if someone asks particular questions about the process of buying and/or selling boats using a broker, I am happy to respond with real world knowledge and experience. They can then utilize it or not as they will.

Unfortunately for me, that means my post count will never approach yours. "Experts" come in all flavors.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

wind_magic said:


> complex process of doing a title search and handing someone a check for title insurance and to close the deal, and then


Any tips on how to do a title search on a boat?

I have heard of a couple people getting burned by old bills due.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

sailpower said:


> Deposits become cleared funds generally after ratification but prior to satisfaction of contingencies. Those cleared funds are held in the brokers escrow account (By law) until disbursed as per the ratified contract. Yes, there are exceptions to every rule but brokers are required to have and use escrow accounts in every state that I am aware of.


I'm pretty sure the broker I know just hangs on to the 10% deposit check until the closing when it becomes his.
Cuts down on paperwork.
Is this illegal, I not sure I see anything wrong with it.

He deals with mostly 50,000 and below boats so maybe that is the reason.

Do you have any examples of any buyer who lost their deposit. IE did not get the boat and did not get their 10% deposit back.
I thought it was pretty much standard practice that no matter the reason if the closing didn't happen the deposit was returned.
What has been your experience?


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

sailpower said:


> Wind, to recap, Julie has been asking here and on other sites about the boat buying process. She is already working with a broker. That was her choice before she started posting. Whether that is appropriate to you based on what you think might be her price point I can't answer. You will have to offer up your unsolicited opinion to a question that she hasn't even asked directly to her on that.
> 
> What I have been doing is attempting to answer her and others specific process questions not persuade her that she should be going about this another way. I will leave that to you or those whose goal it is to increase their post count. So, yes, I am giving advice on a boat buying thread. Unlike your responses however, mine are directed towards the actual questions asked.


Fair enough, I didn't know she was going through a broker, I missed that part.



> As I said before, there is lots of opinion masquerading as knowledge on these sites. You yourself have apparently not used a broker but have felt it necessary to post thousands of times on the topic. Good for you but not the way I do business. I'll stick with what I know not what I assume.


I didn't say I'd never used a broker, but I'll take the shot since I'm the one who started it by not knowing she was using a broker, my ego isn't wrapped up in it. 



> Whether someone should or should not use a broker I will leave to those directly involved. My opinion on that would be as meaningless as most so no need to take up bandwidth with what, in fact, was not even the topic of this thread.
> 
> OTOH, if someone asks particular questions about the process of buying and/or selling boats using a broker, I am happy to respond with real world knowledge and experience. They can then utilize it or not as they will.


Like I said, I didn't read close enough and didn't know she was using a broker.



> Unfortunately for me, that means my post count will never approach yours. "Experts" come in all flavors.


Again, I'll take the shot since I started it by not knowing she was using a broker. I'm responsible for the thread going off topic, so I'm responsible for fixing it.


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

I wonder what a newbie might think if they stumble onto this thread? Will they run away in terror or face the devil


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## CaptainForce (Jan 1, 2006)

While I scanned these 160 posts above I noticed that none apply to the value of my boat. I think my boat is without value in respect that it is so far removed from the market. Though it is forty years old, I've owned it for the last thirty years. It's in good shape,- every day I do something for my boat and every day, with rare exception, I'm on my boat. All the posts above only relate to boats that are on the market. I've saved mre than the value of my boat in slip fees by terms of anchoring out. I've saved another full value of my boat over the years of paying liability only insurance instead of full hull coverage for a Florida registered boat. I've saved third full value of my boat by not paying any property taxes on a house for over forty years,- and likely a fourth value of my boat by not owning a car and associated expenses for the last twelve years. My forty year old boat is truely priceless. Over the decades it paid me back many times my cost in having it, and if I lost it tomorrow, I'd still have gained. The last time I dealt with a broker was in 1973! I'm all for brokers, but if your boat's as old as mine and not on the market, even pristine, there is no discernable value.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

david-
How you do a title search would depend on whether it is a documented vessel, or by state laws if it was only state registered. In any case you might start by calling the folks who issue the title to see if they have any suggestions.
But you might also want the sale contract (especially if you are drawing up a private one) to expressly state that the seller is conveying free and clear title, with no known encumbrances or liens, and that they not you will be responsible if any such liens are filed or discovered based on the time when they owned the boat. That shouldn't be a problem to anyone who _knows _he hasn't incurred the wrath of tradesmen or bankers.


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

From the YBAA Yacht Purchase and Sale Agreement form, referencing the word "title":

*5.* ... The closing of the sale shall be deemed completed when:
*A.* All documents necessary to transfer good and absolute title to the YACHT have been received by the BUYER, or by the SELLING BROKER on behalf of the BUYER;

*8. SELLER'S REPRESENTATIONS*: The SELLER warrants and/or agrees as follows: 
*A.* That he has full power and legal authority to execute and perform this Agreement, that he has good and marketable title to the YACHT, and that, if necessary, he will obtain permission, prior to closing, from any authority to sell the YACHT,

*E.* To hold harmless and defend the BUYER and BROKERS against any and all claims incurred prior to closing that may impair or adversely affect the BUYER's receipt, use, and possession of the YACHT, including BUYER's condition survey of YACHT and SELLER'S possession of good and absolute title to YACHT, and to assume all costs incident to defending the BUYER and BROKERS against such claims, including their reasonable attorney's fees.

David, in the same agreement this is what it says regarding buyer default:

*12. DEFAULT BY BUYER:* The BUYER and SELLER agree that the amount of damages sustainable in the event of a default by the BUYER are not capable of ascertainment. Therefore, in the event that the BUYER, after accepting the YACHT under the terms of this agreement, fails to fulfill any or all of the obligations set forth in paragraphs #5 and #9, the deposit shall be retained by the SELLER as liquidated and agreed damages and the BUYER and SELLER shall be relieved of all obligations under the Agreement. This sum shall be divided equally (50%/50%) between the SELLER and the BROKERS after all expenses incurred against the YACHT by the BUYER have been paid. The BROKERS' share shall not exceed the amount the BROKERS would have received had the sale been completed.

But it seems *8E* contradicts *12*. If I'm reading it right, if the seller sues because the buyer defaults, the seller has to "hold harmless and defend the buyer and brokers against any and all claims..." and "assume all costs incident to defending the buyer." 

If no one knows of the defaulting buyer having to pay up, maybe this is why.


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

JulieMor said:


> From the YBAA Yacht Purchase and Sale Agreement form, referencing the word "title":
> 
> *5.* ... The closing of the sale shall be deemed completed when:
> *A.* All documents necessary to transfer good and absolute title to the YACHT have been received by the BUYER, or by the SELLING BROKER on behalf of the BUYER;
> ...


Julie, you are reading it wrong. The indemnity given by the seller to the buyer is that the seller agrees to assume all risks relating to claims incurred prior to the closing, for example, unclear title (the seller still owes money on a loan he used to buy the boat; if the bank now sues the new owner for repayment, the seller has to make it good), any liens (the mechanic who installed the new engine is still owed $), or anything like that. It does not include any claims incurred by the buyer's own actions (like default). Such clauses are common in all contracts for sales of major items (including real estate).


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## sailpower (Jun 28, 2008)

mstern is correct. Clause 8 is directed towards the seller and clause 12 is directed towards the buyer.

Your broker should be able to explain this contract to you.


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## sailpower (Jun 28, 2008)

davidpm said:


> I'm pretty sure the broker I know just hangs on to the 10% deposit check until the closing when it becomes his.
> Cuts down on paperwork.
> Is this illegal, I not sure I see anything wrong with it.
> 
> ...


All states have laws regarding escrow accounts, the dollar amount of the sale not withstanding.

An undeposited check is worthless for enforcing the contract as it can be cancelled at any time so it offers no protection.

Getting your money back after the cancellation of the sale is governed by what is in the ratified purchase agreement. It is not automatic. A properly worded agreement should spell out what happens in the case of default and also define what default would be..


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Last I heard, banks charged money on escrow accounts. So if a small broker wanted to open an escrow account, it would cost him money. Plus perhaps a piece of everything deposited in it. Making it simpler and cheaper to just put the check in the draw and see what happens.

Maybe not as professional, maybe not a good way to find out if the check is worth anything, but I'm sure that would work for some folks.

"An undeposited check is worthless for enforcing the contract as it can be cancelled at any time so"
Oh, the laws about checks, and offers, and contracts...they keep attorneys in all fifty states and all eleven insular possessions busy enough.<G>


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## sailpower (Jun 28, 2008)

davidpm said:


> Any tips on how to do a title search on a boat?
> 
> I have heard of a couple people getting burned by old bills due.


In the case of a CG documented vessel liens are generally attached via the document. For a $25 fee the CG will do an abstract search of a particular vessel and send you the results.

USCG National Vessel Documentation Center, Fee Page

This is not 100% foolproof (nothing is) as there may be state liens as well particularly in the case of undocumented vessels. For that reason it might be advisable to do a UCC lien search in any state where the vessel is known to have been. Again this is also not foolproof as it is contingent on knowing the history of the vessel but it is generally not practical to search all fifty states.


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## sailpower (Jun 28, 2008)

hellosailor said:


> Last I heard, banks charged money on escrow accounts. So if a small broker wanted to open an escrow account, it would cost him money. Plus perhaps a piece of everything deposited in it. Making it simpler and cheaper to just put the check in the draw and see what happens.
> 
> Maybe not as professional, maybe not a good way to find out if the check is worth anything, but I'm sure that would work for some folks.


Maybe, but it would be illegal in any state that I am familiar with.



hellosailor said:


> "An undeposited check is worthless for enforcing the contract as it can be cancelled at any time so"
> Oh, the laws about checks, and offers, and contracts...they keep attorneys in all fifty states and all eleven insular possessions busy enough.<G>


True enough that.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

No point going to a local bank to open an escrow account. Use an escrow agent that already has one. 

There is really no practical point to cashing the good faith check prior to survey. In the standard contract, the buyer can bail for absolutely any reason whatsoever and get it all back, up to that point. Why would anyone in their right mind (attorney, broker, etc) bother with the liability for accepting the cash, when they have zero right to it yet.

The process is mostly good faith, until she is accepted post-survey, and that's all.


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## sailpower (Jun 28, 2008)

Minnewaska said:


> No point going to a local bank to open an escrow account. Use an escrow agent that already has one.
> 
> There is really no practical point to cashing the good faith check prior to survey. In the standard contract, the buyer can bail for absolutely any reason whatsoever and get it all back, up to that point. *Why would anyone in their right mind (attorney, broker, etc) bother with the liability for accepting the cash, when they have zero right to it yet.*
> 
> The process is mostly good faith, until she is accepted post-survey, and that's all.


Because it's the law. Maybe it shouldn't be law but until it isn't it is.

Attorneys', brokers, etc don't get to decide that.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

sailpower said:


> Because it's the law. Maybe it shouldn't be law but until it isn't it is.
> 
> Attorneys', brokers, etc don't get to decide that.


Are we splitting hairs here? I understand they are required to comply with escrow laws. However, what law requires them to cash the check into an escrow that no one has any actual right to prior to survey? My check has never been cashed until survey when, thereafter, default provisions are enforceable.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

Well, here is one practical reason for depositing the earnest money check - you will have clear funds when necessary, especially with funds drawn from a different federal reserve district.

I closed real estate and business transactions at one time, and I can tell you about all the different types of "Official Check"s, "Treasurer's Checks", "Cashier's Checks", etc. people and financial institutions will submit, even when they are told to obtain certified funds or send a wire transfer. Some checks are marked in such a way to appear to be cash equivalent, but are in fact drawn on a bank in a different federal reserve district so the maker can earn the interest until it is honored. [Virginia has had a Wet Settlement Act to force parties to advance actual cash equivalent funds or pay interest/damages to others.] You can call the bank to ask if a stop payment can be put on a particular type of check or how long before funds clear and you will receive some interesting answers.

Also, what if the contract survey contingency and all other contingencies are satisfied, the escrow agent, who didn't timely deposit the check upon ratification, now goes to deposit the check at the bank, and that same day, the buyer backs out and changes his mind. The seller now has no liquidated damages waiting for him. Oops! Who is at fault, the escrow agent for not depositing the check?

And why not deposit it, the inconvenience of having to write a check and obtain a release? The escrow agent earns a fee for a reason, and has liability in the process.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

The contract usually gives a period of time post-survey or a date specific for the buyer to accept (read as back out). In my experience, the check is usually deposited between the survey and that date, when it becomes clear there will actually be a deal. Contingent repairs, etc, have not necessarily been completed. I've not seen an escrow agent even engaged until that point, therefore, the expense of one. No point, if the boat is going to be rejected.

On the one hand, it is as simple as writing a check to refund. But, for the broker, who would probably hold it in their own account before engaging an escrow agent, they have to have bookeeping and internal controls to watch over significant funds they are responsible for, if anything screws up. Easier and arguably safer to just sit on the check that the seller has no rights to yet anyway. Buyers are happier too. Makes for a less threatening experience, until it becomes necessary.

I'm just going to speculate that checks are cashed earlier than this, simply to test whether the buyer has the money. I am not saying I know this to be the case. On the other hand, once a buyer has agreed to contract a surveyor, they're committed. The one argument for cashing the check would be survey costs that may attach to the boat, if not paid. However, I've always known the buyer to contract the surveyor, not the seller, so I'm not sure they could attach.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

If you handle enough of a certain type of transaction, you will eventually have that 1 in a 1,000 case that reminds you why you should employ standard, routine, defensive practices as an escrow agent...

As you probably know, I am not a big fan of the brokers' association contract, so you can't generalize about escrows for all boat sales transactions. Some buyers may be sophisticated enough to insist on the use of their own contract.

Julie seems prone to allowing the broker to control the sale.

The broker's advice to ask the broker about the meaning of the contract is quite comical.


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## sailpower (Jun 28, 2008)

Minnewaska said:


> Are we splitting hairs here? I understand they are required to comply with escrow laws. However, what law requires them to cash the check into an escrow that no one has any actual right to prior to survey? My check has never been cashed until survey when, thereafter, default provisions are enforceable.


Maybe we are splitting hairs. I am not trying to be argumentative. Brokerage contracts specify cleared funds. An un-cashed check is not cleared funds.

There have been many lawsuits over the years. Here is but one scenario:

Buyer surveys boat which he rejects because it has one bottom paint blister. Boat is still hanging in the slings and buyer says forget it and leaves without paying the yard or the surveyor.

Seller is forced to pay the yard in order to get his boat back.

Surveyor files a maritime lien against the boat which must be satisfied prior to any future ownership transfer .

Broker deposits buyer's check which he has been holding and discovers that the check is no good.

Seller is now out 1k-2k and wants to know why the check wasn't cleared prior to survey?

Broker says because he heard on the internet that it wasn't necessary. 

There are many permutations of the above. Sadly, not everyone is nice or honest. People who themselves are nice and honest don't always realize that.

In FL checks are now discouraged and most everything today is done by wire transfer including deposits.


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## sailpower (Jun 28, 2008)

jameswilson29 said:


> Julie seems prone to allowing the broker to control the sale.
> 
> The broker's advice to ask the broker about the meaning of the contract is quite comical.


How so? Shouldn't she understand what she is signing before she signs it?


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

I am not licensed in Florida so I cannot speak to its laws, but most states have exceptions to the crime of unauthorized practice of law that allow agents to fill in the blanks on a form contract, and in some cases draft an addendum to that contract. Going beyond those exceptions is engaging in the unauthorized practice of law.

A broker who represents the seller and who starts giving legal advice to the buyer about the implications of certain provisions and the law of that state has likely crossed the line into the unauthorized practice of law.

A buyer who relies on the legal advice of the seller's agent is a fool.


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## sailpower (Jun 28, 2008)

jameswilson29 said:


> I am not licensed in Florida so I cannot speak to its laws, but most states have exceptions to the crime of unauthorized practice of law that allow agents to fill in the blanks on a form contract, and in some cases draft an addendum to that contract. Going beyond those exceptions is engaging in the unauthorized practice of law.
> 
> A broker who represents the seller and who starts giving legal advice to the buyer about the implications of certain provisions and the law of that state has likely crossed the line into the unauthorized practice of law.
> 
> A buyer who relies on the legal advice of the seller's agent is a fool.


I am not an attorney so I can't comment on your first part except to say that I haven't believed that pointing out the parts of the agreement labeled as pertaining to the seller and/or the buyer is "practicing law". It is a good point and I am going to research it further.

For the record, I suggested that Julie ask her broker any contract questions that she is signing with him about what is in his contract. To my knowledge, she is not dealing directly with the seller or the seller's agent.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

A seller would be wise to choose the yard at which the boat will be hauled and have the haul and launch paid in advance. A buyer should have no problem with pre-paying this. There is no way for them to get out of the obligation and the good faith deposit will be fully retained by the brokers anyway and should not be available for this. I have this vague recollection that I was actually required to pay the yard in advance at some point, although, I believe it was the yard's requirement. I was hundreds of miles away and they probably thought they would never collect, if I balked, and they didn't know me.

On the other hand, I have a real curiosity over whether the surveyor can legally attach the boat, if they were contracted by the buyer. They didn't improve the boat, so I would find it unlikely. Still, I would be interested and may research it.

Brokers haven't been cashing these checks right away since long before the internet was around. Maybe the seller even decides to back out before they sign the contract. What is the percentage of deals that die after an offer is accepted. I will bet it's quite high and an active broker would rightfully become jaded.


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## kd3pc (Oct 19, 2006)

Minnewaska said:


> A seller would be wise to choose the yard at which the boat will be hauled and have the haul and launch paid in advance. A buyer should have no problem with pre-paying this. There is no way for them to get out of the obligation and the good faith deposit will be fully retained by the brokers anyway and should not be available for this. I have this vague recollection that I was actually required to pay the yard in advance at some point, although, I believe it was the yard's requirement. I was hundreds of miles away and they probably thought they would never collect, if I balked, and they didn't know me.


I have bought quite a few boats over the years, and not once has the seller paid for, chosen the yard or made the appointment for my survey or surveyor. Were those to be terms of the sale, I would look dimly at the deal and wonder why.

It is incumbent on the prudent buyer to arrange his own inspections, choose the yard and indeed pay for it, often ahead of time or certainly at the inspection. I actually had two inspections that the yard would not let me in to the pit without word that the haulout and such were paid in full.

Similarly, I have had my surveyor tell me that there are showstoppers on the visual in the water inspection that would render useless the haulout and I stopped the survey there. I have also had the yard notify ME, no one else, that they see an issue that needs to be addressed. Would "I" like it handled while in the sling, or if not sure about the sale - do it later. Same with bottom painting- I have asked the yard before hand, should the survey be OK, can we paint the bottom later in the afternoon or set and block the boat while it is in the sling.

Of course the risk is the seller may get something for nothing from me, but I usually have the deal locked in before work proceeds.

You are the Buyer, use your power to get what you want, and where you want the boat gone over.

YMMV


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

kd3pc said:


> I have bought quite a few boats over the years, and not once has the seller paid for, chosen the yard or made the appointment for my survey or surveyor. ......


I can see how the phrasing of my first sentence, may have lead you to believe that's what I meant. But, my second sentence made it pretty clear that the buyer should be pre-paying.

So, the buyer should pay, and arrange the surveyor.

However, it is very common for the seller to insist on who will haul it out or at least limit the options. Who cares for it, has the right equipment and how far they are willing to allow it to travel all factor in. As a buyer, I never really cared who pulled it. It was the surveyor not the travel lift that mattered.


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## sailpower (Jun 28, 2008)

Minnewaska said:


> A seller would be wise to choose the yard at which the boat will be hauled and have the haul and launch paid in advance. A buyer should have no problem with pre-paying this. There is no way for them to get out of the obligation and the good faith deposit will be fully retained by the brokers anyway and should not be available for this. I have this vague recollection that I was actually required to pay the yard in advance at some point, although, I believe it was the yard's requirement. I was hundreds of miles away and they probably thought they would never collect, if I balked, and they didn't know me.
> 
> On the other hand, I have a real curiosity over whether the surveyor can legally attach the boat, if they were contracted by the buyer. They didn't improve the boat, so I would find it unlikely. Still, I would be interested and may research it.
> 
> Brokers haven't been cashing these checks right away since long before the internet was around. Maybe the seller even decides to back out before they sign the contract. What is the percentage of deals that die after an offer is accepted. I will bet it's quite high and an active broker would rightfully become jaded.


You may be correct. Surveyor may not prove to be the best example. I have emailed our corporate counsel and will report what he says.

In any event, James Wilson gave you a couple of pretty good answers and he is apparently an attorney.

Anecdotally, I don't know of a company in FL, MD or NJ who doesn't clear funds prior to proceeding to contingencies. Admittedly I am not familiar with all companies particularly the smaller ones and I suppose there are always cowboys but I was most definitely in the industry prior to the internet.

I don't see the downside that you seem concerned about?

BTW, it is quite common for the buyer to pay for the haul/hang/launch and any extras that come up before the boat goes back in the water and yes, in my experience, the seller usually selects the yard.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

I remember the haul out/survey/purchase process to be a collaborative effort by all parties seeking to make a mutually beneficial transaction. Not much drama in my case. No smoke and mirrors, everybody did what they said they would do. I paid for the haul out before hand, the surveyor was contacted by me and we arranged a time in conjunction with the boat yard and the owners schedule. Yard selection was the closest to the marina, made by the owner. Owner and I discussed the survey findings, agreed on a course of action and finalized the deal with a handshake and beer. Maybe it was old school. I liked it.


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

jameswilson29 said:


> Julie seems prone to allowing the broker to control the sale.
> 
> The broker's advice to ask the broker about the meaning of the contract is quite comical.


I think you're forgetting what it was like the first time a person enters into the boat buying world. You decide to look at boats and usually the first person to greet you is a broker. If not, then it's an owner. Either way, both will "educate" you. I took that and presented it here and elsewhere to get feedback. Then I began getting an education from other perspectives. It's a process. There was never any intention to allow one side of the equation provide all the information.

FWIW James, I have read many of your posts and they offer a different perspective from that of the broker, one that any boat buying newb needs to hear. When I began seriously looking a month & a half ago, I wasn't even in kindergarten. Today I feel I at least have graduated the 8th grade. We're trying to get as educated as we can while looking for the right boat and that will continue. My father was an attorney. It's drilled into my head you never sign anything you don't fully understand and agree with. And I won't.

While many here have encouraged moving into the offer stage of the process, this portion of the thread shows how important it is to understand the legal aspects of the process as well as the perspectives of all the parties. That's why I was so confused why anyone would suggest making an offer without any mention of understanding the legalities first. From what I've been reading here, even for the experienced boat buyer, the legalities of the boat buying process are not crystal clear.

The more I read, the more I'm seeing an attorney familiar with marine sales contracts (didn't even know they existed until recently) is far more valuable than a selling broker (as in, "no contest"). But where do you find one?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Julie, 

You really don't need an attorney, although, I won't talk you out of one.

In the standard contract, the buyer holds ALL the cards until the acceptance date. If you don't trust they parties with the money (when necessary to pay it), just insist on an escrow agent, who gets a copy of the contract too. No escrow agent, no deal. Simple.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

JulieMor said:


> The more I read, the more I'm seeing an attorney familiar with marine sales contracts (didn't even know they existed until recently) is far more valuable than a selling broker (as in, "no contest"). But where do you find one?


I applaud your approach to the boat buying process. I am not advising everyone to seek counsel for boat buying, but you should understand the limitations of the brokers' contract, how you might modify it to suit your needs, and your ability to use your own contract.

The main problem with the brokers' contract is the buyer spends a considerable amount of money to understand the condition of what he or she is actually buying. It is possible that both the seller and the broker are aware of conditions, that if revealed to the buyer, would end the sale without the buyer spending all that money first.

If I spent several thousand dollars on a haul out and survey only to discover a defect that the seller (and broker) probably knew about, that killed the deal, my view is the parties who failed to reveal the defect should be liable for reimbursement of costs.

How about using the Golden Rule in business instead of trying to screw everyone over? Why not reveal what you know about your boat up front? That would certainly limit the back end negotiation after the survey. That way, everyone knows what is being bought and sold up front.

I recommend Avvo.com - The right attorney makes the difference for finding attorneys, because it includes client reviews and endorsements from other attorneys:Chicago Maritime Lawyers. Find the Best Maritime Attorney in Chicago, IL - Avvo.com

If you want a lawyer to prepare a sales contract or assist you with the transaction, you would probably be just as well served in a purchase transaction by finding an Illinois-licensed lawyer who works with contracts and sails as you would be by a maritime law lawyer.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

jameswilson29 said:


> .......If I spent several thousand dollars on a haul out and survey only to discover a defect that the seller (and broker) probably knew about, that killed the deal, my view is the parties who failed to reveal the defect should be liable for reimbursement of costs.......


How would you write a contract that defined what they probably knew about? While a reasonable thought, I don't think it can work from a practical standpoint. Every time I find something wrong with my boat, I didn't know it yesterday.


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

When my dad had his boat in Chicago, I knew that boat inside and out. Few surveyors could have provided better information about the condition of that boat than me.

James, you are absolutely right. The owner has knowledge of the condition of the boat. And they should divulge what they know up front. If they don't because they fear it will devalue their boat, aren't they offering the boat for sale fraudulently?

A real estate attorney told me if you don't divulge problems a homeowner should reasonably know, you could be liable for the cost of fixing it. Why shouldn't the same be true with boats?

Instead, the industry creates a system that creates jobs, and it's the buyer that supports it. There's little solace in the buyer being able to back out of the deal. They will never recoup the costs they incurred or the lost time. And if they walk and move on to find another boat, they will incur those costs again.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Unless I'm mistaken, Julie is buying a boat with the approx value of a car. Find one you like, make an offer, have it inspected/surveyed, decide if you still want it, pay for it.

It just shouldn't be this complicated.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

JulieMor said:


> When my dad had his boat in Chicago, I knew that boat inside and out. Few surveyors could have provided better information about the condition of that boat than me.....


Yet, you must have found things in need of repair all the time. What if the survey was done on the same day you would have found your next problem? Think the buyer would believe you?

Sure, there are dishonest people. It's just nearly impossible to prove.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

Minnewaska said:


> How would you write a contract that defined what they probably knew about? While a reasonable thought, I don't think it can work from a practical standpoint. Every time I find something wrong with my boat, I didn't know it yesterday.


CONTRACT OF SALE
THIS CONTRACT OF SALE is made this ____ day of ______________, 20____, by and between __________________________________________________("the Seller") and _________________________________________________ ("the Buyer").
WITNESSETH: that for and in consideration of the mutual promises and covenants contained herein and other good and valuable consideration, the receipt and sufficiency of which are hereby acknowledged by the parties, Seller and Buyer agree as follows:
1. Property. Seller agrees to sell to Buyer and Buyer agrees to purchase from Seller a ____ _____________________ sailboat, "______________", hull identification number __________________________ along with all property attached to and enclosed in the vessel, including but not limited to the following ( all of which, the vessel and the property, to be referred to as "the Sailboat"):
a. All standing and running rigging, mast, boom, spreaders, stays, shrouds, traveler, mainsheet, jib sheets, ________ winches, ____ winch handles, cleats, traveler, and boom vang;
b. Main sail and ____________ jibs, sail bags and mainsail cover;
c. ____________________________________ engine and gas tank;
d. Electrical system, wiring and electronics, marine battery, VHF radio, depth finder, cabin lights, battery switch, running lights, and _______________________________;
d. Below decks/cabin furnishings, equipment, cushions for all berths, cooler, _________ toilet with _____________, foul weather jackets/gear, books, charts, and __________________;
e. Safety gear/equipment: ¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬ electric and manual bilge pumps, lifelines, stanchions, bow pulpit, stern pulpit, life preservers, flotation cushions, bell, flares, horn and ________________________________;
f. Anchor, anchor chain, and rode, mooring lines, cleats, ____ fenders; and,
g. Other: _________________________________________________________. 
2. Price. The total sales price for the Sailboat is _____________________________________
Dollars ($___________.00). Seller acknowledges receipt of an earnest money deposit check in the amount of __________________________ Dollars ($______) from Buyer, with the balance of the total sales price to be paid by Buyer to Seller at closing.
3. Seller's Representations: Seller represents and warrants the following: that Seller has clear title to the Sailboat, free and clear of any liens, levies, charges, assessments, or attachments; that Seller is the sole owner, with full and complete authority to enter into this contract of sale and to transfer title to the vessel to Buyer by a certificate of title; that the Sailboat is in normal operating condition for a vessel of its age; and that Seller has no knowledge of any material defect(s) in the Sailboat, patent or latent, except as follows:___________________________________________ _____________________________________________________________.
4. Contingencies: The sale is subject to a satisfactory marine survey or professional inspection, and a satisfactory sea trial by Buyer, both to be completed at Buyer's option and expense by ____________________. Seller shall make the Sailboat available for the survey and inspection and Seller shall cause the Sailboat to be placed in the water and ready prior to the sea trial at Seller's expense. In the event that either the survey/inspection or sea trial are not satisfactory to Buyer in his sole discretion, then the earnest money deposit shall be forthwith refunded to Buyer.
5. Closing: This sale shall close on _____________________ at _____________________, at which time Buyer shall deliver to Seller a certified or cashier's check for the balance of the Sales Price in return for Seller's transfer of the title to Sailboat to Buyer, by endorsement and delivery of a certificate of title to Buyer and by Seller's transfer to Buyer of any and all keys, locks, and operational devices. The Seller shall deliver and transfer the Sailboat to Buyer at closing, launched/re-launched in the water at _________________________________________. Risk of loss remains with Seller until delivery of title to Buyer.
6. Addresses: Seller and Buyer each warrant and represent to each other that his residential address and telephone number are as follows:
Seller:____________________________________________________________________
Buyer: ____________________________________________________________________
7. Modification: This contract may only be modified by a writing signed by the parties.
WITNESS the following signatures and seals:
SELLER: BUYER:

__________________________(SEAL)	___________________________(SEAL)

__________________________(SEAL)	___________________________(SEAL)


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

There are different ways of proving someone knew about something. Some things would have to be known by the seller or his agent, for example, a severe grounding that damaged the keel. Some things the seller may have attempted to repair and decided not to because of the cost, for example, a problem with the inboard engine that was concealed by a clean up or additive, instead of fixed. You could find information from third parties - the marina, a mechanic, posts on forums like Sailnet, where the owner sought services or advice, etc., etc.

Asking a seller to represent that his or her vessel is in "normal operating condition for a vessel of its age.." is not asking too much. These representations are basically flushing out the seller who is attempting to get rid of a problem boat by making it someone else's problem.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

Minnewaska said:


> Unless I'm mistaken, Julie is buying a boat with the approx value of a car. Find one you like, make an offer, have it inspected/surveyed, decide if you still want it, pay for it.
> 
> It just shouldn't be this complicated.


It's sad to see this process become so complicated with the need to engage an attorney and the further impossible requirement to have some sort of explicit guarantee on a boats condition. Glad I escaped from your world. Get out and go sailing, a few miles under your keel will fix what ails you!


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

jameswilson29 said:


> CONTRACT OF SALE
> THIS CONTRACT OF SALE is made this ____ day of ______________, 20____, by and between __________________________________________________("the Seller") and _________________________________________________ ("the Buyer").
> WITNESSETH: that for and in consideration of the mutual promises and covenants contained herein and other good and valuable consideration, the receipt and sufficiency of which are hereby acknowledged by the parties, Seller and Buyer agree as follows:
> 1. Property. Seller agrees to sell to Buyer and Buyer agrees to purchase from Seller a ____ _____________________ sailboat, "______________", hull identification number __________________________ along with all property attached to and enclosed in the vessel, including but not limited to the following ( all of which, the vessel and the property, to be referred to as "the Sailboat"):
> ...


Please define "Normal operating condition for a vessel of it's age" seems like you are opening a huge can of worms with this statement. The no knowledge part is a bit of a mystery too. Geez, I've done extensive months long refits in foreign lands, only to to discover "something else", which I had no knowledge of before departing......I'm one anal mofo on this stuff too....and sheet still happens. All these guarantees and warranty's, where of's and there too's, their in's and what for's, surprised there is no who begat who, maybe the rocker and and a ball of yarn and knitting needles would better suit all parties. I'm about three sheets to the wind so I'll leave it there for now...


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

On the last number of yachting world there is an article that is interesting to tis discussion. A guy bought a 1997 Halberg Rassy 46 for 180 000 euros. The boat needed a refit to come to its normal sailing and safety potential. Te refit costed 320 000 euros. Total cost 520 000 euros.

The guy is very pleased because a new HR 48 with a similar kind of equipment costs 950 000 euros.

I would say that there are advantages and disadvantages. Obviously the new design is a better performer in all aspects but more than that (that is just a smaller point) he is never going to recover all that money that he spent in refitting the older boat, that probably has a market value under the price of the refit while the new boat will have a much higher used value in proportion to its cost as new.

As a deal, it is a bad deal. If he does not have the money for a new one or a more recent used boat not in need of a refit and he is sure that he is not going to sell that boat for a long time and that's the boat he really wants, it could be a good solution for that sailor, but never in what regards value of the boat on the market.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

aeventyr60 said:


> It's sad to see this process become so complicated with the need to engage an attorney and the further impossible requirement to have some sort of explicit guarantee on a boats condition. *Glad I escaped from your world. * Get out and go sailing, a few miles under your keel will fix what ails you!


Dude, this isn't MY world. Julie is in her own world of paranoia and paperwork.
As Minne stated, for the amount of money they are looking to spend, this amount of paranoia and paperwork is just hilarious.

If we were looking at a purchase price equvilant to a house (especially if they were planning on selling a home and moving aboard), I might be onboard with this level of...insanity.


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## jorgenl (Aug 14, 2006)

aeventyr60 said:


> Please define "Normal operating condition for a vessel of it's age"


It is undefinable.

As several people has said before, don't over complicate the process. It is rather simple.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

aeventyr60 said:


> Please define "Normal operating condition for a vessel of it's age"


As a buyer, I would be concerned about a seller who would not agree to this. "What exactly are you hiding from me about this boat?"

"Normal operating condition" means,

1. It is not brand new and is not perfect;
2. Although it is aged, it does operate, it is not inoperable;
3. The operating condition is consistent with its age;
4. The seller does not know of any major material defect that would imminently impair its functioning.

Look at your marine survey - the marine surveyor gives an overall opinion of the boat's condition for its age. "Normal operating condition" would be "average" and functioning. That still allows for imperfections consistent with the age, or things that need to be addressed, but do not impair the functioning of the boat.

So a forty year old fiberglass boat with a twenty year old inboard engine is not perfect, but it works, and the boat would have the normal features of a forty year old fiberglass boat - faded, spider-cracked gel coat, oxidized metal coatings, aged standing rigging, etc. The twenty year old inboard might have a slowly leaking rear seal, lower compression, and/or burn some oil, but it still runs and the seller does not know of any defect (cracked block, water leaking into the oil, etc.) that would require immediate replacement.

It is certainly possible that a forty year old boat or a twenty year old engine could develop a problem that would prevent it from normal functioning the next day. This is not like a new home warranty, a new car warranty or a new boat warranty, the seller is not guaranteeing its operation for any particular period of time, just that it works now.

If you do not want to make any representations about the condition of your boat, that's fine. Sell it "as is" with no statements of fact about it, or sell it on eBay. The real problem is that sellers want to make all kinds of representations without any liability for the buyer's costs in reasonably relying on those representations. That may work with a sucker, but an informed buyer should not fall for that ploy.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

jameswilson29 said:


> .......that the Sailboat is in normal operating condition for a vessel of its age; and that Seller has no knowledge of any material defect(s) in the Sailboat, patent or latent, except as follows:.......


Good example of form over function. In order to actually make demand on default of this provision, the buyer would have to first establish the definition of the standard to a court and then prove it wasn't met. In Julie's case, those legal fees would grossly exceed the value of the survey costs she was trying to recover.

Further, this contract neither defines the Seller's right to remedy, which the courts would either not like and void the provision or potentially define themselves, nor the consequence of default. More legal fees to sort it all out later.


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

Minnewaska said:


> Unless I'm mistaken, Julie is buying a boat with the approx value of a car. Find one you like, make an offer, have it inspected/surveyed, decide if you still want it, pay for it.


And if you don't want it you're out the cost of the survey, haul out and whatever else you paid for to find the problem(s) that killed the deal.



Minnewaska said:


> It just shouldn't be this complicated.


It's not complicated at all. It's just run-of-the-mill CYA. You cover yourself when you buy a house. You cover yourself when you buy a car. Why shouldn't you cover yourself when you buy a boat? I really don't see any problem with this. It's done all the time for major purchases.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

JulieMor said:


> And if you don't want it you're out the cost of the survey, haul out and whatever else you paid for to find the problem(s) that killed the deal.


That's exactly right. Be glad it is acceptable to do such a detailed inspection when buying a boat. Losing these monies is much less than the cost of a lemon.



> It's not complicated at all. It's just run-of-the-mill CYA. You cover yourself when you buy a house. You cover yourself when you buy a car. Why shouldn't you cover yourself when you buy a boat? I really don't see any problem with this. It's done all the time for major purchases.


The cover in each of these isn't nearly the guarantee of the yacht/survey rights. Find one yu like, hire a surveyor and press forward.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

A lot of great ideas have been expressed and their is a lot to learn from probably hundreds of years and hundreds of boat deals the posters have collectively brought to this thread.

I think that to a very large extent a 35' or larger boat is practically unknowable. The owner doesn't know everything, the surveyor can't find out everything and the buyer knows the least. 
The reason we have had so many posts is that their are so many issues involved along with a significant amount of money.

1. Every boat has surprises (see above)
2. Every surprise costs a lot of money.
3. Every seller has different moral values. One seller would disclose a hard grounding that was properly repaired. Another seller may feel that since the repair was made professionally the boat is a good as new and mentioning it would just worry a jittery buyer. Another seller self inspected and figured their was no damage and keeps his mouth shut. He is right or maybe wrong. How hard was hard? Is it a lead or iron keel? Does the bilge leak?

I'm not defending hiding a defect to sell a boat but so often the defect is opinion. How soft is a soft deck? How much water is the bilge is allowed? How much smoke of what color is the engine allowed to make for how long after starting?

I'm going to make a controversial statement that even I don't necessarily believe. 
It might however spark some new thoughts.

I would guess that if every seller and broker and surveyor told every new boat buyer everything that they knew, thought of and were worried about for a given boat that no boats would ever be sold as all buyers would be scared off.

It is almost as if ignorance is a necessary part of the buying process. No matter how much experience you have even if you have 50 years surveying experience when you buy your own boat the ignorance will kick in an you will convince yourself that the boat only needs x when if you were not emotionally involved you would estimate 3x.

There is so much judgement and opinion as to what is suitable and what has to be replaced that the current process whereby the seller mostly keeps his own counsel and the surveyor does the best he can and the buyer foots the bill is not likely to change anytime soon.

What could be useful is for someone to create an on-line repository of surveys for boats for sale.
If you paid $600 for a survey and rejected the boat and I was interested in the boat I would be willing to pay $100 to see your survey even if it was a couple months old.

I would probably want to buy my own survey but for $100 bucks it would be interesting to see why you rejected it.

I doubt if a website like this could survive as the market is so small and people are so emotional and a lot of people if they liked the boat would want to sit on it until the boat price came down.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

jameswilson29 said:


> As a buyer, I would be concerned about a seller who would not agree to this. "What exactly are you hiding from me about this boat?"
> 
> "Normal operating condition" means,
> 
> ...


Would you accept my "Above Normal Operating Condition for it's age boat", and pay me a premium? Would you pay a fraction of the upgrade costs to have a boat in this condition? No, I don't think so either. An informed buyer is still going to drive the cost down as low as he can get, and I believe people are actually walking away from some darn nice boats because they can not differentiate between the two.

In another thread a young guy just bought a nice Tartan in Chicago. Think he'd benefit more from some serious sailing discussions then this tired old horse.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

aeventyr60 said:


> Would you accept my "Above Normal Operating Condition for it's age boat", and pay me a premium? Would you pay a fraction of the upgrade costs to have a boat in this condition?


Yes, I would if it could be proven and is not mere puffery.

I bought my boat knowing that it had specific problems, revealed from a previous survey and my own, and many desirable features. Any knowledgeable buyer knows older boats are not perfect and have issues. I was o.k. with hull blisters, a worn stuffing box and a hull deflection in return for a working inboard diesel, bimini and wheel. Why not reveal and discuss the inevitable issues, instead of being sneaky about it?

Again, I have no problem with a seller who wants to sell "as is", at a DISCOUNT. A seller with a boat in cream puff condition should be happy to reveal that condition and receive a premium price.

The problem is the sellers who want to have it both ways, make misrepresentations about the condition without any potential liability for their statements. It is the buyer who spends all the money to discover the seller's deception.

The market has changed. Buyers are now in control and should negotiate the transaction to their advantage. Anyone who wants to be led around by the nose by a broker and told "this is the way we always do it", is free to be screwed for his or her ignorance.


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## jorgenl (Aug 14, 2006)

JulieMor said:


> And if you don't want it you're out the cost of the survey, haul out and whatever else you paid for to find the problem(s) that killed the deal.


A lot of folks here seem to be overly worried about being out the cost of a survey.

A survey is $20-25/ft which is less than $1K for a 40' boat. Haul out is added to that of course.

Welcome to the world of boat ownership.

$1K is only a boat buck. - better get used to spending some money.


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## BarryL (Aug 21, 2003)

jorgenl said:


> A lot of folks here seem to be overly worried about being out the cost of a survey.
> 
> A survey is $20-25/ft which is less than $1K for a 40' boat. Haul out is added to that of course.
> 
> ...


Yes and No. Yes the cost of a survey is small (tiny) potatoes compared to the cost of owning a boat. But no, you should not survey every boat that looks interesting. Certainly don't listen to a broker who say "make and offer and see what happens." You should only survey a boat that you truly truly want to own.

IMHO, the survey was a last sanity check so that I wasn't buying a piece of junk. When I bought my last (and still current) boat I told the broker "here is my offer, it's low, but it's honest and I promise that I'm not going to renegotiate after the survey. Either the boat passes or I walk away. So present my offer to the seller and let's see what happens." The owner accepted. The survey revealed a number of things that I needed to fix, but no real surprises. I wanted to know that the engine and trans were sound, that the hull, keel, and rudder were in good condition, and that the gear listed in the ad was indeed present on the boat. After that we closed on the boat and I sailed her home (in December, in the Northeast, but that's another story).

Barry


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## jorgenl (Aug 14, 2006)

BarryL said:


> Yes and No. Yes the cost of a survey is small (tiny) potatoes compared to the cost of owning a boat. But no, you should not survey every boat that looks interesting. Certainly don't listen to a broker who say "make and offer and see what happens." You should only survey a boat that you truly truly want to own.
> 
> I


I totally agree with you, of course you should not survey every boat that looks interesting. Nor should you make an offer on a boat that looks interesting.

You should only make an offer on boat and survey it if you truly intend to buy it (assuming nothing major comes up in the survey).

That's why we have surveys.


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## TJC45 (Jul 10, 2013)

jorgenl said:


> A lot of folks here seem to be overly worried about being out the cost of a survey.
> 
> A survey is $20-25/ft which is less than $1K for a 40' boat. Haul out is added to that of course.
> 
> ...


And down this road we go again. I agree, relative to the costs of boating that $1000 isn't all the money in the world. But it is exactly this attitude, "it's only $1000" that fuels the crazy way the boating world works.

The lack of upfront disclosure leads to many buyers wasting time and money on boats they would walk away from if the truth was disclosed upfront.

Just tell me up front that the engine isn't going to pass a compression test and let me decide if i still want to spend that $1000.


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## jorgenl (Aug 14, 2006)

TJC45 said:


> Just tell me up front that the engine isn't going to pass a compression test and let me decide if i still want to spend that $1000.


Here we go again ;-)

Most owners would not have a fricking clue whether their engine would pass a compression test.

You cannot disclose what you do not know.

That is why we have surveys.


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## Pegu club (Jun 10, 2012)

A boats worth can be measured in many ways.
When it comes down to a strictly cash transaction, the value is measured in how little you had to pay to get it.
When it comes down to ones mental well being, time on the boat is priceless.

Pull the trigger JM, just Pull the trigger...


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

Pegu club said:


> A boats worth can be measured in many ways.
> When it comes down to a strictly cash transaction, the value is measured in how little you had to pay to get it.
> When it comes down to ones mental well being, time on the boat is priceless.
> 
> Pull the trigger JM, just Pull the trigger...


I agree.

And when the right "gun" is in our hands, we'll happily pull the trigger.


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

jorgenl said:


> Most owners would not have a fricking clue whether their engine would pass a compression test.


Exactly. Other than when I bought it, and did my own check, I have NEVER checked the compression in any of the boat motors that I've owned--outboard or inboard. I seriously doubt if more than one in one hundred boat owners has had the motor compression checked since they bought it. Only if they start having problems with it will they eventually check it, or get it checked.

What's more, the plain fact is that the overwhelming majority of boats that are up for sale (I'd guess in the range of 95% or more) are being sold because the owner isn't using it anymore, hasn't had it out for quite a while, and probably hasn't even set foot on the boat in a couple of years. Expecting an owner like that to know if the engine can pass a compression check is completely, utterly, ridiculously unrealistic.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

jorgenl said:


> Here we go again ;-)
> 
> Most owners would not have a fricking clue whether their engine would pass a compression test.
> 
> ...


I think that what jorgenl was referring to was owners that knew their boat would not pass a compression test because the last deal blew up because the buyer had the compression test done.

Obviously a seller can't divulge information they don't have. 
What a lot of people are complaining about is that sellers are not divulging information they do have and and are hoping that a sloppy buyer will miss a problem.

Looking at the opposite side of the situation is that a compression test is often not pass or fail. A cylinder can be low for hundreds of hours and the engine can still run fine for years.

So let's say I'm the broker on the deal (I'm not and I don't play one on TV) and I know that the last deal fell through because the buyer had a compression test done.
Now this boat is 30 years old is selling for 40k, I think it is a good deal. I've been buying and selling boats for 30 years and listened to the engine. Is starts well, has a little white smoke for a couple minutes longer than I would like so I know their is something going on. I also know that an engine can run like that for years and still give good service.

So what do I do?

I tell the first time buyer about the problem that may never be problem and they go and buy a real piece of doodoo from a competitor because the competitor's boat has new cushions and flowers on the galley counter and he knows enough to keep his mouth shut about that boats problems.

I'm sure I will not make that mistake twice.

My position is that a certain amount of ignorance is necessary to complete the sale of a boat. That ignorance can be because of lack of experience or it can be willful. None of us are immune.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

If a buyer asks to see all surveys done in the past three years, is the broker or seller entitled to lie and say that none were done? Is he entitled to cherry pick the ones he shows?


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## sailpower (Jun 28, 2008)

TakeFive said:


> If a buyer asks to see all surveys done in the past three years, is the broker or seller entitled to lie and say that none were done? Is he entitled to cherry pick the ones he shows?


That is a common question.

Remember that the survey does not belong to the seller or the broker even if they have a copy of it. It belongs to the person who paid for it. Most likely that person would want to sell it at a discount to recover some of his expense. Beware of giving it away without permission.

Surveys are not absolute and often the report is a combination of fact, opinion, bias and CYA.

Example:
"The boat is 40 years old and all systems are subject to failure at any time. All systems should be constantly monitored at all times. The boat may be suitable for its intended purpose if the above is adhered to". Pay me please.

A question for the lawyers; Survey reveals some bottom blisters that are classified as cosmetic but the buyer walks. Seller orders the broker not to disclose them to future prospects. What can a sellers agent legally disclose?


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

sailpower said:


> A question for the lawyers; Survey reveals some bottom blisters that are classified as cosmetic but the buyer walks. Seller orders the broker not to disclose them to future prospects. What can a sellers agent legally disclose?


FYI: I'm not a lawyer, but I was raised by one and that and $5 will buy a small coffee at Starbucks, maybe.

I'm guessing any broker aware of the existence of the YBAA agreement is going to use it. I've been over that agreement several times with a fine tooth comb. I can't find a single loophole that would allow a seller to sue the broker for anything.

But that shouldn't be a surprise. It's a contract created for the brokers by their attorneys and designed to protect the brokers, first and foremost.


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## sailpower (Jun 28, 2008)

JulieMor said:


> FYI: I'm not a lawyer, but I was raised by one and that and $5 will buy a small coffee at Starbucks, maybe.
> 
> I'm guessing any broker aware of the existence of the YBAA agreement is going to use it. I've been over that agreement several times with a fine tooth comb. I can't find a single loophole that would allow a seller to sue the broker for anything.
> 
> But that shouldn't be a surprise. It's a contract created for the brokers by their attorneys and designed to protect the brokers, first and foremost.


As I stated, my question was directed to actual attorneys. The reason for that is because I am looking for an answer based on law not opinion or emotion.

You might have been raised by attorneys but so what? You are no more qualified to answer the legal question than if you had been raised by wolves. OK, redundant, never mind. 

I will address your characterization of the YBAA contract. Back in the early 90's when there was not much of an internet and YBAA was YABA, professional brokers saw the need for industry wide standardized listing and purchase agreements. If you saw the differing agreements that were then in use you would understand why. YABA undertook the task of providing them. There was much discussion and legal consultation and the first contracts were created. They have been modified a bit over the years but the intent remains the same; to provide a fair basis for all parties to them.

Now it's true that lawyers generally don't like "standard" contracts as they want to write something that favors their client not something that is "fair". That is their legal obligation and what they get paid to do. No problem except when the other attorney wants to do the same thing. Gridlock can ensue but both lawyers get paid even if they kill the deal over the language. It doesn't happen that often and I am not knocking lawyers here. It is what it is and not unique to the marine industry.

Speaking of language, how often have you seen the wording that the sale is "contingent" on survey and/or sea trial? What does "contingent" legally mean and what are the consequences and remedies under "contingency"?

I was taught to write something like: "The Buyer and Seller agree that the Buyer may cancel this sale on or before_______ without penalty if he is not satisfied with the Yachts performance at a sea trial to be provided by the Seller or if no sea trial is provided by the Seller by that date and/or the results of an inspection of the Yacht to be paid for by the Buyer". Nothing is fool proof but those words sure sounds a lot more explicit to me. An attorney's comment on this would be appreciated as well.

Yes, A Buyer can cancel the sale over pretty much anything as long as he does it by the specified dates. OTOH, the Seller is under no contractual obligation to do much of anything except make the boat available for contingencies and go to settlement with the correct documents.

Sometimes it's a miracle that anything gets bought and sold.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

sailpower said:


> ...Surveys are not absolute and often the report is a combination of fact, opinion, bias and CYA...


The same can be said of every other piece of disclosed information that is shared with a potential buyer. However, unlike all the other information, the survey comes from a neutral, licensed third party, so his biases are less likely to be swayed by self-interest.


sailpower said:


> ...Remember that the survey does not belong to the seller or the broker even if they have a copy of it. It belongs to the person who paid for it. Most likely that person would want to sell it at a discount to recover some of his expense. Beware of giving it away without permission...


Define "giving it away." If protected by copyright, then there is no need to make a copy. Just show the existing copy to the potential buyer. If it was shared with the seller, the chain of confidentiality has been broken already.


sailpower said:


> ...A question for the lawyers; Survey reveals some bottom blisters that are classified as cosmetic but the buyer walks. Seller orders the broker not to disclose them to future prospects. What can a sellers agent legally disclose?


Question for the brokers: Why shouldn't your response be, "Sorry, the YBAA Code of Ethics prevents me from lying when directly questioned about your boat." It would seem to me that this is the only acceptable response. Any other answer is a violation of section 1.3 and/or 1.4 of the YBAA Code of Ethics:


> YBAA CODE OF ETHICS & BUSINESS PRACTICE
> 
> [As Approved by the YBAA Board of Directors - August 17, 2007]
> 
> ...


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## sailpower (Jun 28, 2008)

TakeFive said:


> The same can be said of every other piece of disclosed information that is shared with a potential buyer. However, unlike all the other information, the survey comes from a neutral, licensed third party, so his biases are less likely to be swayed by self-interest.


I think that is mostly true but unfortunately not always.



TakeFive said:


> Define "giving it away." If protected by copyright, then there is no need to make a copy. Just show the existing copy to the potential buyer. If it was shared with the seller, the chain of confidentiality has been broken already.


Is that a legal opinion or an opinion? I have seen surveys that state they are the property of the surveyor and are not to be shared without his permission. I am wondering what the law is.



TakeFive said:


> Question for the brokers: Why shouldn't your response be, "Sorry, the YBAA Code of Ethics prevents me from lying when directly questioned about your boat." It would seem to me that this is the only acceptable response. Any other answer is a violation of section 1.3 and/or 1.4 of the YBAA Code of Ethics:


Again, is that a legal opinion or an opinion? Can an agent of the seller act in any way against the sellers interest? I am wondering what the law is.


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

sailpower said:


> You might have been raised by attorneys but so what? You are no more qualified to answer the legal question than if you had been raised by wolves. OK, redundant, never mind.


Wolves don't drill into their pups heads to scour every word of any contract they sign. But wolves can't hold a pen anyway. 

Broker, buyer and seller all want to be protected in the sales process because of the the amount of money involved in many of the transactions. That's perfectly understandable.

As a percent of purchase price, I can't think of any any major purchase that leaves a buyer with a potential for greater expenses than a boat. And most contracts (if not all) specifically state that once the sale is closed there are no warranties, implied or otherwise. Paragraph 17 of the YBAA contract is a perfect example of that.

There are lemon laws for cars sold. There are laws protecting a buyer, after the sale, from fraud and failure to disclose when buying a home. I know of no laws protecting a boat buyer after the sale. Maybe there aren't enough lawmakers who own boats. 

It's been said many times that upfront and honest disclosure about the known condition of a boat could mean no boats would ever be sold. That implies that either the boating industry is rife with deceit (and that's why boats sell) or the cost of owning a boat is so great many who purchase a boat shouldn't have because they couldn't afford it in the first place (ignorance), leaving too many boats in poor condition. Or something in between.

If the boating industry today was comprised of owners who had a full understanding of the cost of owning a boat, there wouldn't be as many boats out there as there are now. That would mean a smaller market but it would also mean the value of boats would be higher than it is in any given economy.

But it seems the industry that exists today relies on a certain level of buyer ignorance to fuel sales. There's an element of that in any major purchase that has a high level of emotions fueling it. The only difference is the lack of any laws (again, as far as I know) that protect the buyer from fraud after the sale.

I had a conversation with the owner of one of the boats we will be seeing. I got the impression he was very upfront and honest about the condition of the boat. He told me something that had killed an earlier deal. I feel if we entered into a contract, I would know everything he knows. That's about as perfect a relationship between buyer and seller you can get, IMHO. When you know what you're getting into, it's easier to make the purchase.

OTOH, if the seller plays Where's Waldo and leaves it to the buyer to find anything that would kill the deal, to me, that's the worst buyer - seller relationship you can have. And it hurts the boating industry and lowers the value of boats in general.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"However, unlike all the other information, the survey comes from a neutral, licensed third party,"
_Really now ?!_

In what state are marine surveyors licensed by what government entity?

Maybe privately credentialed by some independent organization of debateable standards, but never _licensed _in the US, in my limited knowledge.

And as to being independent, every written article on surveying for at least the last 50 years will tell you, don't ask the yard or the broker for a surveyor, because they have to work and play and live together, and it isn't impossible for one hand to scratch the other, as happens in almost every trade and every community.

A survey beats nothing. But surveyors, like cops and Congressmen, are still sometimes only human. And they're not licensed either, are they?


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

hellosailor said:


> "However, unlike all the other information, the survey comes from a neutral, licensed third party,"
> _Really now ?!_
> 
> In what state are marine surveyors licensed by what government entity?
> ...


I never said they aren't human. Everyone has biases. Let's put it this way - the surveyor is the one guy in the transaction who has "no skin in the game" if you are careful to pick one who is not in cahoots with the broker or other interested parties.

When I said "licensed" I picked the wrong word. Sue me. There are independent certifications based on training, and they have to be maintained. That's no guarantee of quality, but it beats no training at all.

I've only hired a surveyor once, so I'm no expert (but I'm more of an expert than some people here who have never hired a surveyor). When I was interviewing potential surveyors four years ago, two of the candidates declined because their business had declined so much that it was no longer worth their money to keep their certifications current (their words, not mine). They had basically left the business because they refused to do surveys without their certifications. It was upon these statements that I surmised that there is at least one certification process for surveyors. Is it required? I'm sure it's not, and you can go hire any damned stooge you want, if that's what it takes to prove your point.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Certifications? And two of the surveyors closed up shop because they couldn't afford their dues, or business was slow?

That sure wouldn't impress me. Kinda like a guy saying he used to own a five-star restaurant, but he closed because it was such a bother keeping the kitchen clean.

What nonsense, and still a far cry from anything like "licensing". Possibly the largest organization for marine surveypors in the US is SAMS and their incredibly high admissions standard calls for one take-home exam and one "I swear I'm a surveyor, really":

1.SAMS® Application (included in Membership Packet)
2.SAMS® Admissions Exam (included in Membership Packet)
3.Submit one survey for each of last five years of active surveying
4.Resume
5.Business Card 
6.Notarized affidavit attesting completion of 12 surveys per year for each of the last five years
7.$150.00 non-refundable application fee

Unless they actually go back and obtain your business records and contact past customers, that's not a terribly hard list to fill, is it? And it really doesn't prove that someone is sober, hardworking, or on the mark.

Sue you? No, but I'd like to let anyone who finds the thread know for sure that unlike engineers and architects, marine surveyors _are totally unlicensed_, are not subject to any review of professional standards, and are strictly a matter of luck and reputation.

Would licensing be any improvement? Probably not. Plenty of restaurants fail their health inspections year after year, and stay in business.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Dude,

I think you're too obsessed with nit-picking my statement, and you've gotten off focus from my primary point.

If a seller has a boat that has been surveyed in the recent past, I would want to see the survey(s). Period. End of story. All your allegations about lousy surveyors don't matter to me. I want to see the survey(s). I'd be happy to hear the broker's argument of why the survey was wrong - I'm a reasonable person. I'd even look the boat over myself and might come to the conclusion that the surveyor was wrong. But don't pretend (or lie) that a survey wasn't done, and make me waste money to hire a surveyor who will tell me the same thing. I should be able to decide for myself whether the issue is worth a second opinion from a different surveyor. At the very least, I need to know who did the prior survey(s) so I don't hire the same surveyor the last guy did. That's not a second opinion at all.

A "fair and honest description of the vessel" should include that disclosure.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

sailpower said:


> ...Can an agent of the seller act in any way against the sellers interest? I am wondering what the law is.


I'm not a lawyer, but I am an ethical person.

If there are known material facts that detract from the value of the boat, a "fair and honest description of the vessel" must include them. If "the law" prevents the broker from disclosing these facts because it is "against the seller's interest," then "the law" prevents the broker from complying with section 1.4 of the YBAA Code of Ethics.

If any lawyers care to take this on, please cite the specific statute that prevents the broker from making such disclosures.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

I'm not obsessed with your statement. I just was pointing out that you don't know what a surveyor really is. He's just a guy, he's not a licensed professional of some kind.

Now, one your larger point of wanting to see any surveys that might have been done in the last few years, and whether a broker or seller is entitled to lie? By law, that kind of lie would be called "fraud" and if that state had a "duty to inform" regarding material defects, the lie could be actionable. But since there's little to no chance you'd ever know about it, and horse traders have been known to lie...Good luck with that. I don't think you know the playing field. The broker is a pro, he's not your friend and he's going to keep his moth shut and say "I don't know" about anything that might hurt his sale, unless it can be _proven _that he does know.

With rare exception.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

JulieMor said:


> But it seems the industry that exists today relies on a certain level of buyer ignorance to fuel sales. There's an element of that in any major purchase that has a high level of emotions fueling it.


That's what I've been saying. The only real, but only partial, defence is knowing what you are looking at.

Julie is working hard on that job.
Can't blame a girl for getting educated.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

jameswilson29 said:


> CONTRACT OF SALE
> THIS CONTRACT OF SALE is made this ____ day of ______________, 20____, by and between that the Sailboat is in normal operating condition for a vessel of its age; and that Seller has no knowledge of any material defect(s) in the Sailboat, patent or latent, except as follows:___________________________________________ _____________________________________________________________.


James I completely understand the intent of this document. I would like to mention a possible unintended side effect however.

Some people, like me for example, are by nature very cautious in business.
So if someone made me an offer on a boat I had for sale and handed me a custom contract instead of the standard contract I've got to tell you it would spook me.

My reaction would be make to make my counter offer for the property as is where is. I wouldn't even represent the property as a boat. If you think it is a boat and want to buy it that is fine. If you think it would make a nice lawn ornament and want to buy it that's fine too. This would be even if I had 100% confidence in the boat and had turned over a 100 page maintenance log.

The reason is that I would interpret a custom contract of any kind as a form of aggression on your part. You have the total right to do as you wish but this action would franky scare me.
If I found out you were a lawyer or raised by lawyers or had lawyers in your family I would be even more spooked. If I found out that you were a new boater I would be even more spooked.

Maybe I'm too timid but the language of that document with undefined "normal operating condition" would cause me to immediately think of lawsuits. I would think of the dozens of times I've cursed a previous owner and think that now I'm going to be the PO.

I would think that someone asking me to sign a non-standard contract is trying to trick me. If have to hire my own lawyer there will definitely be a few hundred dollar extra expense on my side.

Now if I knew you and knew you were not litigious and a reasonable person but just a guy that liked to write his own contracts I would sign it no problem.

So the final point is that every seller has a different tolerance for risk. It is very possible that if you insist on this contract you may walk away from a very good boat from a low tolerance very honest person and buy a not so good boat from a high tolerance hardened lier who figures that one more pending lawsuit doesn't matter.

I know your motives are pure and simple, "Just tell me the facts bro".
I'm just letting you know that right or wrong certain actions can be misinterpreted by people who don't know you.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

david, i don't think there is a "standard" contract, certainly not for private sales. Standard from broker's organizations, sure, but that's not this.

And your response to sell "as is where is" could get you in trouble in a number of US venues, where that's illegal for any type of motor vehicle sale. Ah, yes, there are warranty laws (or merchantability, of suitability for use, etc.) that crop up in all sorts of pesky places. Not to mention, federal versus state laws.

And with 61 venues (50 states plus the 11 insular possessions, and maybe DC makes 52) when someone says "show me a statute" I have to ask, what color paper would you like to see it on? Sixty one or two venues, sixty three if you count federal overrides....There's plenty of rules to go around.

And you know, if I believe half of what I read in the papers? They're passing more of them every year, because would you believe, there are people out there who keep getting arrested for _ignoring _all those rules? Tsk, what has the world come to?! Businessmen ignoring laws! Oh my goodness, so shocking. So so shocking.


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

davidpm said:


> Can't blame a girl for getting educated.


Yet a lot of people here seem to want to.


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## mark2gmtrans (May 14, 2013)

> 1.6 The Broker in his/her advertising will be especially careful to present a true picture of the vessel and/or its condition and will not advertise without disclosing his/her name, nor permit his/her sales people to use the individual's name or telephone numbers, unless the sales person's connection with the Broker is obvious in the advertisement.


You mean the photos that I constantly see that were obviously taken back in 1979 of the boats listed on various sales sites are not really how a broker should represent a vessel?

That seems to be something some of them have not been good at doing. I want to see photos of the boat that show its current condition, not how it looked back when the original owner still had hair. I want to see something that helps me understand how the boat looks now. Oh, and once again, sellers please clean up your boat, make it look like you were actually trying to impress someone you like, not like you are selling the boat because you are disgusted with it and too exhausted from trying to keep it from sinking to clean it up before you take the photos.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I just found a stanchion had loosened and was leaking pretty badly last weekend. I pulled it out, cleaned out all the cruddy goop that the OEM used to bed it and re-bed it properly.

Would anyone expect me to inform a buyer that this had happened? No core damage.

I'm just thinking that yesterday's survey is meaningless.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> I just found a stanchion had loosened and was leaking pretty badly last weekend. I pulled it out, cleaned out all the cruddy goop that the OEM used to bed it and re-bed it properly.
> 
> Would anyone expect me to inform a buyer that this had happened? No core damage.
> 
> I'm just thinking that yesterday's survey is meaningless.


Totally agree.
Also you "think" their is no core damage. But what is damage, is is wet, if wet how wet and how far.
No one knows.

Every seller has to make a judgement call as to what is relevant and needs to be disclosed and what is not relevant.

Every seller will draw the line someplace else.


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

Minnewaska said:


> I just found a stanchion had loosened and was leaking pretty badly last weekend. I pulled it out, cleaned out all the cruddy goop that the OEM used to bed it and re-bed it properly.
> 
> Would anyone expect me to inform a buyer that this had happened? No core damage.
> 
> I'm just thinking that yesterday's survey is meaningless.


Really? Totally meaningless? So if you knew that there was a survey done last year on a boat you were thinking of buying, you wouldn't want to even see it? I wouldn't rely on an old survey to make a purchase; I mean you don't know the provence or potential bias of whoever wrote it, and all sorts of things can happen in a year. But you wouldn't even want to see it? At all? No interest whatsoever?

I disagree. I would definitely want to see it. I would use it as one more tool in my evaluation of the boat. I would compare the old survey to my survey to see if conditions had changed, and if repairs had been made due to the earlier survey. When I bought my boat, my surveyor interviewed the owner and used that information in preparing the final document. I would want to see if the story the owner was telling had changed from last year to this year. Maybe the owner told the first surveyor about rebedding the stanchions, but that story "slipped his mind" this time around.

I can think of many more uses for an older survey, but I don't want to beat a dead horse. I think that any survey will have information that may be useful in your evaluation.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Julie,

So how is the boat search comming. 

Dave


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

I had the pleasure of looking at a couple boats with Julie last weekend. I can assure you guys that whatever boat Julie gets will be the the best for the money. She is methodical, observant and has made herself very knowledgeable.

I know we all worry about new people but Julie can take care of herself. 

That is unless she falls in love with a boat and turns off her brain and buys the boat she loves. Which I suspect is what happens eventually to all of us.


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

Sailing Texas seems to have prices boats sold for too.


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

chef2sail said:


> Julie,
> 
> So how is the boat search comming.
> 
> Dave


Been having problems logging in...

To answer your question Dave, we sure have learned a lot but we won't be going home with a boat. It's more the two person decision making process than the boats. One boat I seriously considered making an offer, we had to pass on so my SO could get a better idea of the other boats. A couple days after we saw it, it was listed as "Sale Pending." But I'm okay with that. As we looked at more boats we both agreed Tartan deserved a closer look. I had never been on a Tartan before this trip.

Our first boat was a Sabre 38 that was advertised as "turnkey" and in "perfect condition." Once we actually saw it, "storm damaged" and "neglected" described it better. The broker seemed unfazed about the discrepancy in advertising.

The majority of brokers were good though, and when asked the hard questions didn't try to skirt the obvious answer in an attempt to sell us on the boat.

We dealt directly with two owners and both were very upfront and honest about their boats. One even went so far as to take us on his inflatable and show us each and every scratch on the hull. Had he not pointed them out, I would have never seen them. The brokers pretty much let us find the flaws and address the ones we felt might be an issue.

The East coast is like a boat mall. That's what drew us here. That, and the fact we have a good friend in CT we haven't seen in a couple of years. We're heading home tomorrow. No regrets.


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

davidpm said:


> I had the pleasure of looking at a couple boats with Julie last weekend. I can assure you guys that whatever boat Julie gets will be the the best for the money. She is methodical, observant and has made herself very knowledgeable.
> 
> I know we all worry about new people but Julie can take care of herself.
> 
> That is unless she falls in love with a boat and turns off her brain and buys the boat she loves. Which I suspect is what happens eventually to all of us.


Thanks David. We had a great time meeting you and your wife.  You provided us with a lot of helpful information and gave me a lot to think about.

BTW - Great pick on the lunch restaurant!


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

JulieMor said:


> Thanks David. We had a great time meeting you and your wife. You provided us with a lot of helpful information and gave me a lot to think about.
> 
> BTW - Great pick on the lunch restaurant!


Cool. Sounds like progress. There are as much if not more boats down in this area too if you run out of options. Tartans are great well made boats. Good luck.

Dave


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

We were there Dave. Our first boat was in Georgetown, MD, then a couple in Annapolis and one on Kent Island. Before we headed to NJ, we got together with Jaye & Dan at their yacht club for some pizza, cocktails and lots of talk. Fun time. They're great!


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

Julie
I'm sure you thought of this already but just in case you may want to check on that early boat on deposit you liked. 
It is not uncommon for a boat to go on deposit and then something happen so the closing doesn't happen.

Just a thought.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Did you look at the Erickson on Kent. I have a friend intestestd in it. Was it worth seeing


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

chef2sail said:


> Did you look at the Erickson on Kent. I have a friend intestestd in it. Was it worth seeing


It was our third boat and the one I really wanted to see. The listing did the boat justice. It sold a day or two after we saw it. There was another similarly priced E38-200 in Severna Park that has been removed from the listings. PM me if you want to know the details.

The next best E38-200 was the 1990 one in Jersey City. Great condition, well cared for, well equipped. Listed at $69K. The best overall condition (by a small margin) was the PSC built '91 E38-200 in Noank, CT but it's listed at $99,495. We heard many times the PSC built Ericsons are not Pacific Seacraft build quality, but the same build quality as Ericson with a little better electrical & plumbing installations. They even sold for about the same as earlier Ericsons but owners think they are worth much more.

For older boats in great condition we both thought the '83 Tartan 37C in Noank was tops. The owner gave us a tour and you could tell he loves this boat. He's moving up to a Hylas or similar.


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## dawnssong4u (Aug 13, 2013)

Yes.. I'm a Newbie here.. 
I totally agree anything everything comes down to 
"it's worth what someone will pay you for it!" 
don't care what it is it's yours till u sell it.. 

what I would really like .. and maybe wishful thinking.. 
(Hopefully with any/all having basic common sense knowledge of brokers, private sales, importance of a survey and reputation of said surveyor/s)
is a forum, thread ?? Dedicated to Sailnet members who wish to share their own purchasing/price paid, experience selling price offered at/sold for.. 
Per; 1. Boat; maker/manufacturers, designers. 
2. Broken down in sub columns/sections per boat length. 

More of a community working together as a whole.. and in the current market, trend/s etc.. I'm sure location specifics will vary.. 
But, it would be great to know a lot of this information from fellow Sailnet members personal experience.

Is that a totally unrealistic idea? Please anyone with experience exceeding lol, especially mine.. with the forums/boards.. buying/selling.. suggest.. and or Create a place where something like this.. where compilation of actual pertinent data relative to buying specifically used sailboats.. (only bc I think there is enough info available always one new sailboats) could be easily found, read, added to.. just a thought.. 
Hopefully you and or you.. maybe even you..??  will share yours too!
Thank you for a place to ask!
All my best, always, dawnssong4u


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

What?


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

Minnewaska said:


> What?


I think Dawn was asking if it would be possible for Sailnetters to create a price/condition/area database of boats we all sell and buy; sort of a real world BUC.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Of course the pricing information would only have real meaning if it were extensively documented with photographs and descriptions and inventories and surveys and local market conditions. Much like the existing pricing information elsewhere, just the "facts" and dollars wouldn't help anything. "I got lucky and found a bargain after three years" doesn't reflect a larger market, does it?


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

And those contributing to the information being compiled in the database shouldn't have skin in the game.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

JulieMor said:


> And those contributing to the information being compiled in the database shouldn't have skin in the game.


Well that eliminates everyone here.


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## jorgenl (Aug 14, 2006)

Why reproduce already existing data (soldboats.com) that is quite accurate and contains a lot of historical data?

Just ask a broker for some comps from soldboats.com


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

jorgenl said:


> Why reproduce already existing data (soldboats.com) that is quite accurate and contains a lot of historical data?
> 
> Just ask a broker for some comps from soldboats.com


Well that is the problem it is locked down to brokers, and has been shown to not be very accurate. There was recently a post about a Bristol, I believe, and the "sale" price was significantly higher. It is in the interest of the brokers to inflate the prices, as higher prices mean higher commissions. NADA and Boat US are at least as accurate as soldboats.com.


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## jorgenl (Aug 14, 2006)

miatapaul said:


> Well that is the problem it is locked down to brokers, and has been shown to not be very accurate. There was recently a post about a Bristol, I believe, and the "sale" price was significantly higher. It is in the interest of the brokers to inflate the prices, as higher prices mean higher commissions. NADA and Boat US are at least as accurate as soldboats.com.


How has it been shown not to be very accurate?

It does happen that brokers enters incorrect sale prices, for a variety of reasons. One reason can be that a seller does not want anyone (friends, etc) to know exactly what his boat sold for and may request that broker input sale price = asking price.

If sale price differs dramatically from asking price, brokers may and often do enter a comment that explains why.

If a broker consistently inflate sale prices in soldboats.com I think he can/may be reported to yachtworld.com (same as soldboats.com) and worst case scenario I think his priviliges to use soldboats may be revoked. not sure how often that happens in reality.

I do know that YBBA is trying to somewhat enforce accurate reporting as well.

It is in everyones interest.

For the most part, I have found the sale prices in soldboats.com accurate.

and... a *reported *sale price in soldboats.com does not influence a brokers commission in any way, the *actual *sale price determines the commission (unless it is fixed, which is somewhat unusual).


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

Can't you just go to Walmart and pick one off the shelf? I mean if it's good it would have been reviewed on Amazon. Also Consumer Reports would have info as well. Didn't Ralph Nader do a 60 minutes special on boat values?


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## jorgenl (Aug 14, 2006)

aeventyr60 said:


> Can't you just go to Walmart and pick one off the shelf? I mean if it's good it would have been reviewed on Amazon. Also Consumer Reports would have info as well. Didn't Ralph Nader do a 60 minutes special on boat values?


Would a sail boat qualify for Amazon Prime free shipping?


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

jorgenl said:


> Would a sail boat qualify for Amazon Prime free shipping?


I got my dinghy off Amazon, with free shipping.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

miatapaul said:


> ...It is in the interest of the brokers to inflate the prices, as higher prices mean higher commissions...


Artificially inflated prices mean lower volume, which means lower commissions. A broker gets no commission until a boat sells, and it will just sit on the market if priced too high.

A broker might give in to pressure to mis-report a sale price, but he gets no benefit from it. He only hurts himself and his colleagues.


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

TakeFive said:


> Artificially inflated prices mean lower volume, which means lower commissions. A broker gets no commission until a boat sells, and it will just sit on the market if priced too high.


According to what I've been told, the average boat sits on the market about a year before it's sold. That's a long time to wait for a commission, especially if you're just getting into the business.

Based on soldboats information we got on the Sabre 38 & Tartan 37, the longer a boat was on the market, the larger the gap between asking price and selling price. _(I don't know if the asking price from soldboats is the original or just the last asking price before the boat was sold.) _

The soldboats information certainly showed that pricing a boat properly will get it sold faster. And you would think that would compel brokers to do whatever they can to get the seller to agree to a listing price that will be in line with boats that sold quickly. But we saw many boats that were on the market a year or more where the original listing price hadn't budged.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

JulieMor said:


> According to what I've been told, the average boat sits on the market about a year before it's sold. That's a long time to wait for a commission, especially if you're just getting into the business...The soldboats information certainly showed that pricing a boat properly will get it sold faster. And you would think that would compel brokers to do whatever they can to get the seller to agree to a listing price that will be in line with boats that sold quickly...


A boat owner who thinks his boat is worth more than it is will pick a broker who tells him what he wants to hear. (Same for home owners and realtors.) So in order to get listings, brokers often have to list unreasonably high and wait however long it takes for the seller to soften his price.



JulieMor said:


> ...But we saw many boats that were on the market a year or more where the original listing price hadn't budged.


Sometimes the seller doesn't want to sell and is happy to keep using the boat. Sometimes the seller just doesn't have time to worry about it and thinks someone will come along if he waits long enough. Sometimes the seller is dead and the heirs are arguing over the right strategy.

But one thing is for sure - the vast majority of boats that you will see have been on the market a long time and will remain on the market a long time. The few that are well cared for and have motivated sellers will get snatched up before you ever see them, or right after you see them if you don't act quickly.

So it's this tough situation where you can get lulled into slow action because you think nothing sells quickly, but if you find "the boat" you'd better act quickly because everyone else is looking for the same high level of maintenance that you are.


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## cthoops (Apr 30, 2012)

TakeFive said:


> But one thing is for sure - the vast majority of boats that you will see have been on the market a long time and will remain on the market a long time. The few that are well cared for and have motivated sellers will get snatched up before you ever see them, or right after you see them if you don't act quickly.
> 
> So it's this tough situation where you can get lulled into slow action because you think nothing sells quickly, but if you find "the boat" you'd better act quickly because everyone else is looking for the same high level of maintenance that you are.


I agree with this. Although we were looking at a very different price range than the O/P, the junkers that we saw are still on the market. The boat we bought was on the market for only a few weeks before we saw it, and we didn't hesitate. Every week we're thankful we were lucky enough to find our boat.


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

TakeFive said:


> But one thing is for sure - the vast majority of boats that you will see have been on the market a long time and will remain on the market a long time.


And if I can add one more thing to that... Most of those boats need a lot of work, even the ones that are still being used regularly. At least that's what we saw.

We saw three boats we really liked. One got scooped up a day or two after we looked at it. The other two are still on the market. Both of them are very well cared for, but both are 30 years old (one a Tartan and the other a Sabre). The one that got scooped up was an '88 Ericson (5 years younger) that had many recent updates and was the lowest priced at $57.4K.

There was another E38 that is listed for $12.5K more that was in much better shape than the one that sold and is 1 year newer. Yet, that's still for sale. So it must be the price. But if you go to Yachtworld and look up E38s, 1988 and newer, most fall into that mid to upper $60K range. NADA and BoatUS value them in the low to mid $50K range.

If you look at that little snapshot you could say if you want your boat to sell quickly, start with NADA and BoatUS values and take it from there. If you don't care how long it takes, use Yachtworld for values.


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## jorgenl (Aug 14, 2006)

Hey Julie,

How is the boat shopping coming along?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Seems Julie hasn't signed on to the forum in over three months. Hope she hasn't fully abandon the effort.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

jorgenl said:


> Hey Julie,
> 
> How is the boat shopping coming along?


I would bet dollars to donuts she has not bought a boat, and probably will never buy a boat. She enjoyed all the attention from mentioning Sabres and Swans, but bailed when some questioned her commitment to actually buying a boat.

Posts are revealing as to who is really serious about actual sailing and who enjoys virtual sailing and craves attention.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

I don't necessarily think she was craving attention. She seemed more in love with the process of buying a boat, rather than actually owning a boat.

Endless tweaking of spreadsheets and doing ressearch, etc. She should just be a yachtbroker instead of an owner.

If she buys a boat this spring, well good for her.


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## sailpower (Jun 28, 2008)

She was on several boards with her "expert" analysis of the process.

She also said at one point that she needed to convince her husband.

It's lot cheaper to have a "plan".


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

sailpower said:


> It's lot cheaper to have a "plan".


She obviously enjoys searching for a boat. Nothing wrong with that. A little bit like 'reading' a Playboy magazine. Ultimate safe sex. And very affordable. 
I like looking at the boats for sale as well. I do it all the time. I'm probably 3 years away from buying my 'retirement' boat but in the meantime I keep sailing the smaller boats I have had for years. Looking at boats for sale is fun. Almost therapeutic.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Dreaming is nice. I am glad that she had not bought a dream that could have turned in a nightmare. If one buys an inexpensive old boat without expecting to spend a lot on it, a nightmare can easily be on the horizon.


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## Jiminri (Aug 26, 2012)

Everyone has different priorities.

A bit more than 3 years ago I purchased my first "big" boat...one with a head and galley, etc. A bit more than 1 year ago, I put that boat up for sail and purchased a bigger one.

Financially, not smart. Not smart at all. The $s I spent on upgrades to the first boat were (not surprisingly) not recouped. But I have ZERO regrets. I figure those $ bought me an education. I learned what I liked and did not like in a boat. What was important to me and what I wanted to avoid. I began learning about boat systems and how to diagnose problems and fix them (or find the right person to help.)

Mostly, however, I SAILED! I initially pulled the trigger after a short search of a few months. My free time is limited, but I got on the water as much as I could. That's the real reason for no regrets. I had a sailboat. It's a boat, not an investment.

Now, there's lots of folks much smarter than me who could have figured this all out without following the path I did and saved some $ in the process. So, I don't offer this up as a model, just to say I am ok with the path I took.

All that said, I think looking at boats for sale is blast. I'm sure I'm on yachtworld at least once a week. I'm not going to buy a third boat (yet...my wife's making me type this) but it is fun to look.

Everyone has to find their own way to happiness. I hope Julie finds hers...


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

The long shot odds here are that she did buy a boat and promptly left us all for dead, once she didn't need us anymore.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Minnewaska said:


> The long shot odds here are that she did buy a boat and promptly left us all for dead, once she didn't need us anymore.


That would be just fine by me. At least she'd be out sailing instead of engaging in all of that mental masturbation.


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