# Using a spinnaker as a gennaker



## peterchech (Sep 2, 2011)

My boat has a conventional spinnaker, left by the po. The spinnaker has a line attached at one corner (not at the head), and when I asked him to show me how to use it (while at the slip) he essentially tied that corner to the bow in flying it.

Well I thought this was odd, since it is a symmetrical, and to my knowledge, conventional spinnaker. A short time ago, on a day with light winds, just for kicks I lauched it, with its corner attached at the bow and without any pole. I was essentially flying it like a reacher or gennaker, except it was only connected to the mast at the head, nothing was connected to the forestay.. I went onto a broad reach and, while the wind was blowing, actually made some progress.

I thought I must have been imagining the progress, or that I had been going downwind so that somehow explained why it worked. But today I read a short clip in a sailing magazine which made a reference to using a spinnaker as a cheaper alternative to buying a gennaker. So...

Has anyone else done this? Is this common practice? Is there any reason _not_ to do this? I thought only asymetrical spinnakers could reach...


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Using a conventional Symm that way can work, it won't be as efficient as a properly designed reaching sail (btw you can get specific-for-reaching symmetrical spinnakers meant to be poled too)

I would be reluctant to simply 'tie the "tack" to the bow', though. If you're going to use the sail that way I'd use a typical adjustable tack line as you would with an Assym. I think the issue there will be dousing the sail in a building breeze. You could release the tack line from the cockpit and douse the sail in the usual manner - if it's strapped to the deck forward that's more difficult, esp shorthanded.

Also the luff will be somewhat shorter than an appropriate-sized Asymm since the symm is sized for the elevated pole position..


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

Yes, it can be done and is effective on a broad reach. Possibly even a reach if your only option is a small headsail in very light air. 

I've only done it a couple of times so hopefully you will get replies from someone with more experience. 

Are you running it up the spinnaker halyard? If so it mist be jibed Forward of the forestay. Rigging up something like an ATN Tacker would be useful.


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## svHyLyte (Nov 13, 2008)

The symmetrical spinnaker can be used like an asymmetrical with a sock. Good Old Boat just had a good article on the subject. For more, Google "ATN Tacker" for information on an inexpensive piece of equipment that can make using your Spinnaker without a pole relatively easy.

FWIW...


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## WDS123 (Apr 2, 2011)

The performance limitation will be sailing angle - with the symmetrical set up this way, you will be unable to sail as hot as with a genneker.

So - enjoy broadreating and have fun


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## peterchech (Sep 2, 2011)

I googled ATN Tacker. Wow that is a great video on their site! I had the tacker and the sock in my spinnaker bag and until now wasn't sure what to do with them. Thanks for the advise!


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Have you actually folded the sail in half and confirmed that it is/isn't symmetrical? If it is the two "clews" will line up...

The presence of the tacker and the sock would point to an Asymm.


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

the tacker is to be used on a symmetrical spinnaker because the luff length is not long enough to reach the stem fitting and the tack of the sail will fly way off to leeward without the tacker wraped around the forestay. a properly fitted asymmetrical spinnaker will have a luff length that will go from full hoist to all the way down to the bow fitting or the end of a bowsprit and it wiil be near centerline of the boat. a spinnaker sock can be used on either type of spinnaker


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## kwaltersmi (Aug 14, 2006)

I've thought about using my symmetrical kite in this manner, but I'm concerned about dousing without a sock or furler. Still, I might give it a try someday in really light air.


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## AdamLein (Nov 6, 2007)

Why would it be any harder to douse a symmetrical without a sock or furler used in this fashion, than a symmetrical without a sock or furler on a pole?


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## FijiSomeDay (Sep 17, 2010)

> Why would it be any harder to douse a symmetrical without a sock or furler used in this fashion, than a symmetrical without a sock or furler on a pole?


While I don't have a lot of personal experience, I think I know the answer in theory:

With a spinnaker on a pole, the guy line is let to run out during the douse, so the sail will collapse to leeward making it easier to retrieve.

With a spinnaker fixed to the bow, the sail would hold its shape and still be "powered up" during a sockless douse. easing the halyard to get it down would then mean that the sail could be blown away from the boat, and regardless much harder to get under control on deck.


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## peterchech (Sep 2, 2011)

I assume you would douse the sail in the wind shadow of the main


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Dousing an Asymm without a sock works fine as long as the tack line is long enough to run free enough to get the tack to the cockpit.. unless you're happy to have it run out and through (and remember to retrieve it later) The advantage of a long enough line to keep the bitter end in the cockpit may avoid fouling a prop one day if you're in a hurry. If the tack line runs through and into the water it could end up under the boat.

Bottom line.. check that all lines are accounted for before engaging the gear.

True assyms are somewhat larger than a conventional symm so there is more cloth to grab.. but otherwise dousing in the shadow of the main works well. To be effective, though, you need to 'dive deep' onto more of a run.


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## AdamLein (Nov 6, 2007)

Faster said:


> Dousing an Asymm without a sock works fine as long as the tack line is long enough to run free enough to get the tack to the cockpit..


Exactly. Either way you're letting the tack line run out. I can't imagine dousing a spinnaker that's still tacked down, symmetric or otherwise.

If anything the need to stow the pole, or at least get it out of the way of the jib, would make dousing a symmetrical more complicated than an assym.


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## kwaltersmi (Aug 14, 2006)

Maybe it's just that I'm not that good at dousing a traditionally rigged symmetrical spinnaker, let alone one used as a gennaker. 

When we doused the spinnaker the last time we used it this summer it went all wrong. The sail hit the water and was pulled under the boat. We were able to relatively easily remove the sail from the keel, but guy line got caught on the rudder. It took about 45 mintues of messing around to free everything. No damage done, but lesson learned! The good news is that it was a light air day and we doused a good mile offshore so we had time to let the boat drift while we untangled the mess. 

Anyway, I've been left with a nervous feeling about flying the kite ever since.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

kwaltersmi said:


> Maybe it's just that I'm not that good at dousing a traditionally rigged symmetrical spinnaker, let alone one used as a gennaker.
> 
> When we doused the spinnaker the last time we used it this summer it went all wrong. .....


Dousing is quite straightforward as long as you follow some key procedures:

Head into a deep broad reach

Ease the guy/pole to the forestay, at the same time someone has to grab the sheet above the lifelines.

With the pole already at the forestay release the guy completely (all turns off the winch, let it 'blow' - the sail will collapse in the lee of the main.)

Pull the sheet into the boat, grab the clew and pull the entire foot of the sail towards you, ending up with it and both bottom corners in hand. By now the sail is a collapsed 'tube' behind the main.(on some boats easing the halyard a few feet only at this time helps)

With the bulk of the foot now in hand, now release and ease the halyard at a speed that the douser can keep up with. Pull the sail in under the boom and into the companionway, or cockpit sole if a dodger is in the way. Whoever's hauling cloth has to move quickly and watch for sailcloth going over the side... whoever's on the halyard has to watch and pace the halyard so as not to get too far ahead of the drop.

Once the sail is down, unclip all the lines and clean up before starting any engine/gear.

In really light air you can do a similar thing directly into the bag on the foredeck, but it needs to be almost too light to fly.


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## kwaltersmi (Aug 14, 2006)

Thanks Faster, excellent description! If I recall correctly, our problem was easing the halyard too quickly and getting ahead of the hauler. Once it hit the water it was all over.


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## AdamLein (Nov 6, 2007)

Faster said:


> In really light air you can do a similar thing directly into the bag on the foredeck, but it needs to be almost too light to fly.


The caveat is important. We were out one evening on the way to Sucia from Friday Harbor under our symmetric. We were barely ghosting along and I wanted to get to our anchorage before nightfall, and the wind was so light I tried to douse the sail into the bag on the foredeck. The result was hilarious, but would have been dangerous if there had been any more than the barely perceptible breeze that managed to fill the still-out-of-the-bag portion of chute at regular intervals as the boat sort of spun in place because there wasn't enough wind to actually make any way under main alone. Made me wish I had done wrestling in high school.


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