# ta shing baba cutter 40 or jeanneau 42i?



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Hi,

My name is Tom. Me and my wife (+ small kid and a dog) are planing to do off shore cruising for a couple of years. We have problem which boat to choose. With some (not huge) experience with sailing and a lot of reading we still can't decide which boat design will be efficient and better. Should we choose an older, heavier type of Ta Shing Baba 40 (in very good condition for its age - 28 years old but well equipped) or 2007 Jeanneau 42i - larger inside but most of the time not mention on boat listings for of shore long term cruising. We did read your forum and we know that this subject is very popular to discuss, but we still do not know what to chose? Any pro and con answers will be appreciated a lot. Thanks.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

If it was me, given your options...I'd go with the Jeanneau...but all of the folks here will disagree with me...especially the American friends..

Here at sailnet, it's not trendy not to like older boats....built before toilet paper came in rolls...many many here prefer 3 foot thick hulls...that sail like shoes..here the older and the thicker the better....and if inside is small cramped and preferably sequoia wood, the better

Just my opinion


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

I am not sure what you mean or where your going with "off shore cruising" but I do like the Jeanneau 42i. There is also something to be said about having a new boat with problems to come vs. and old boat with problems it had and others that are hidden.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Freesail99 said:


> I am not sure what you mean or where your going with "off shore cruising" but I do like the Jeanneau 42i. There is also something to be said about having a new boat with problems to come vs. and old boat with problems it had and others that are hidden.


YES!! that too...


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

toudi said:


> Me and my wife (+ small kid and a dog) are planing to do off shore cruising for a couple of years.


Hi Tom, Welcome to Sailnet!

Could you be more specific about what you mean by "off-shore cruising"?

The reason I ask is that some people truly plan on crossing entire oceans and rounding or transitting some notoriously rough spots along the way. A solid bluewater boat would be desirable for that sort of itinerary.

On the other hand, many people are simply planning a long distance coastal cruise/island hop, interspersed by a few relatively short off-shore passages. If you are in the latter group, then the Jeanneau might be the better choice. It does have a somewhat vacuous interior, though, which could make it uncomfortable during a rough passage.

Also, if you purchase new, you will probably take a huge hit on depreciation when you go to sell the Jeanneau, especially if you put a fair bit of wear and tear on it in a relatively short period.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Jeanneau builds a pretty reasonable boat for doing most anything. Currently the owner, wife and twin daughters of the local jeanneau Dealership are in or about Australia on a 3 yr tour of the Pacific rim in a NEW SO49iP. No issues so far in 1.5 yrs or there abouts on the road. 

Last yrs ARC, Atlantic Ralley for Cruisers, a cruiser grouping going across the atlantic had IIRC about 17 Jeanneau's. About 1.5 yrs ago or there abouts, another fellow took a 15 yr old Jeanneau on a non stop trip around the world.

They are seaworthy, and will service you well. Unfortunetly, as Alex mentioned, some folks on here like 20-30 yr old boat designs with full keels, slow as a dead slug backwards style sailing. Granted my boat is 22 yrs old, but still a reasonably designed boat for its time. It is also a Jeanneau, so I should mention, a bit biased here! I would not personally want to take my 30'r across an ocean, but the design, how its built etc, would handle going across an ocean better than some boats that are bigger than it. 

Marty


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Hi
Thanks for quick respond. By off shore long cruising we mean 4 - 5 year travel around the world. We would like to have an easy handling boat that is also seaworthy and forgiving but also safe in case we made a mistake and we will be catch by a heavy weather. Ta Sihng is heavier and slower but it can be loaded as well, while Jeanneau is spacious, lighter and faster. For my wife safety is most important but you can be safe also by being able to run away from storm. Does running away require more experience in handling the boat? I guess yes. But on other hand you need experience to handle a boat in heavy weather. Ta Sing's design seems to be able to help you in that matter. Thanks again for responds.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

blt2ski said:


> Last yrs ARC, Atlantic Ralley for Cruisers, a cruiser grouping going across the atlantic had IIRC about 17 Jeanneau's. About 1.5 yrs ago or there abouts, another fellow took a 15 yr old Jeanneau on a non stop trip around the world....Marty


Marty, clearly those Jeanneaus can make it across an ocean. But my understanding is that many of the Jeanneaus in the ARC are being delivered to the Carribean by professional/experienced crews for charter service. So the numbers are not necessarily as representative as you might think, in terms of what long-distance cruisers are choosing for globe trotting.

Based on Tom's additional information, I would recommend something more robust than this Jeanneau 42i. It appears to be a more performance oriented design, which could be a handful for a small family to mange for the longer passages contemplated -- assuming it's up to the task in other respects.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Sun Fast 37
FRA
Louis Villette
Tide Chase
Sun Kiss 47
GBR
Stephen Murphy
Marelia
Sun Odyssey 37
NOR
Øyvind Larsen
Lady Liv
Sun Odyssey 43DS
GBR
Bob Heffron
Waterside
Sun Odyssey 43DS
GBR
Stuart Gillard
Trucial Coast
Sun Odyssey 45.2
GBR
Rob & Ann Cornish
BlueFlyer
Sun Odyssey 49
IRL
Hugh & Val Pilsworth
Cheetah
Sun Odyssey 49
GBR
Peter Byers
Faraway
Sun Odyssey 49
POR
Luis Abreu Freire
Golden Spirit of Islay
Sun Odyssey 49
GBR
Michael & Pamela Overbury
Momix
Sun Odyssey 49
ITA 
Luigi de Bernardo
Regina
Sun Odyssey 49
NOR
Espen Aalstad
Shania 
Sun Odyssey 49 
SUI
Urs Muster
Talulah Ruby II
Sun Odyssey 49DS
GBR
Paul & Andy Atkinson
Kersti
Sun Odyssey 51
GBR
Jeff & Ruth Morris
Philippides III
Sun Odyssey 51
GBR
Christopher Jackson
Burnadebt
Sun Odyssey 52.2
GBR
John Dawson
Imagine of Plymouth
Sun Odyssey 54DS
GBR
Chris Ballard
Perseverance
Sun Odyssey 54DS
GBR
Rob Mackay









There is a grouping of the Jeanneau fleet. Way too many countries and sizes to be a delivery fleet, UNLESS, those doing the sailing are ones buying the boats, delivering them them selves, and putting said boats into charter after. In which case, while a delivery setup, is the owner known for doing blue water all the time.

The world ARC IIRC has 4 SO49i's on that 15 month voyage.

While I will not say a Jeanneau is the BEST boat out there, it will sail on oceans. And should do as mentioned, 5 yrs around the world. One would be island hopping, staying in ports a bunch if one did that.

While I would not choose a 20 yr old boat like te Ta shing, there are a number of newer model boat builders that will give one more comfort, speed etc while doing this. Halberg rassey among others. Generally speaking a jeanneau will do fine.

The local dealer owner was at a get together in Jan. and mentioned his 13 yr old 80 lb dripping wet daughters singily were not having an issue in there boat doing 14-16 knots with a genniker up in 20+ knot winds with 10-20' seas on there way to Australia. They are doing just fine with Jeanneau. There have been a few that folks have abanded in the middle of the Atlantic, only to be found a few weeks later, still afloat! and one towed back to Europe on the back of a freighter ala in tow at 15-18 knots!

i still feel some boats are stronger than we give them credit for. The new designs frankly, i feel are better in general than the older IOR models for sure, and even some CCA models from the 60's!

marty


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Just to keep Giu's opinion of me intact...for 4-5 years of circumnavigating type wear and tear on a boat, you are much better off with a boat that is designed to do that AND has a seakindly motion AND has tankage and load carrying capacity AND a protected skeg. The Baba is such a boat, though I am not a canoe stern fan myself....but you can't go too far wrong with Mr. Perry on a long distance cruise!

BTW...crossing an ocean in the favorable trades at the right time of year and doing it once...does not necessarily give an indication of the suitability of a boat for extended world cruising.


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

I like both boats. I even like the newer Jeanneaus better than the new Beneteaus. IIRC the 42i has that moving Nav table, nice idea. Boats like the Baba really make my mouth water and I don't know why, maybe Alex has a theory . But for what you are doing, which is similar to what I want to do, I have to remind myself that most of my time will be spent on the hook and island hopping. Space and comfort is a huge plus, its going to be your home. My advice would be to sail on both in varying conditions.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Blt2ski-

One problem with your list is that most are significantly bigger boats than the OP is discussing, being 49'+ in LOA. There's a big difference in the construction needs of a 40' boat vs. a 50' boat when it comes to crossing oceans, since one is significantly larger than the other. A 50' boat is probably twice the size of a 40' boat.  

Also, a 2007 Jeanneau is still on the steep part of the depreciation curve... and he'd probably get a much better equipped boat in the older Tashing Baba.

One other point, at that size, the cutter rig will have more manageable sails in terms of size.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

Marty,

I've seen that list, and similar ones from previous years. I am not saying that none of the Jeanneau-style boats are owner occupied/crewed. But I have read a number of comments by ARC participants in recent years who have complained that the event has lost some of its family friendly atmosphere due to the large number of delivery crews for the Caribbean charter fleet. Those boats are privately owned, which is why you will see so many different owners listed on the ARC participant roster, but they are placed in charter fleets in the Carib after being delivered there by hired crews. Note how many are the exact same model, and note how few are returning with the ARC Europe fleet.

But I definitely agree with your suggestion that Tom might want to consider some "in between" designs, and the Swedish builders like HR/Malo/Najad might be worth another look. Also, while I am more in agreement with Camaraderie's comments regarding purpose-built blue-water boats, I would even feel better about some of the other more cruising oriented Jeanneau designs.


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## kwaltersmi (Aug 14, 2006)

My personal preference is the Baba (Alex is a mind reader!). I'm a sucker for a canoe stern, full keel and a cabin full of hardwoods. In fact, the Baba 30 is one of my dream boats.

I also happen to feel that if the Baba 40 surveyed in good to great condition, it would be a much better choice for a world tour which would include several long bluewater passages. The heavy build and small cockpit alone are enough to satisfy many of my cravings for safety while offshore. The Baba was truly designed with your trip in mind, while I believe the 42i is "racer/cruiser" more at home closer to the coast.

If you feel that the Baba is too old but like the style, check out the Hans Christian 41, a Baba-esque boat that's still in production. (FYI - The HC33 happens to be my favorite boat of all time.)


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## poopdeckpappy (Jul 25, 2006)

Same here, looking at HC48's, seems like the next and last logical move up from our TY37


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

kwaltersmi said:


> My personal preference is the Baba (Alex is a mind reader!). I'm a sucker for a canoe stern, full keel and a cabin full of hardwoods. In fact, the Baba 30 is one of my dream boats.
> 
> I also happen to feel that if the Baba 40 surveyed in good to great condition, it would be a much better choice for a world tour which would include several long bluewater passages. The heavy build and small cockpit alone are enough to satisfy many of my cravings for safety while offshore. The Baba was truly designed with your trip in mind, while I believe the 42i is "racer/cruiser" more at home closer to the coast.
> 
> If you feel that the Baba is too old but like the style, check out the Hans Christian 41, a Baba-esque boat that's still in production. (FYI - The HC33 happens to be my favorite boat of all time.)


Check out the Baba 30 in Alameda on Yachtworld. I went on it several times, its a great looking boat!


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

The "i" series Jeanneaus of the last couple yrs have been marketed as 'performance cruisers'. The previous model Sun Oddesy/Fast combos wer marketed as Cruiser/Racers for the SO's, and the SF's as Racer/Cruisers. 

While one may be able to get a TaShing for less than a Jeanneau, I would ask, how much of the rigging etc might need to be replaced/updated etc too. As NONE of us but the OP has seen the two boats he is looking at, other than the knowing what the actual models are, the Jeanneau in the end, may very well be better setup out of the box. 

As far as taking a 42i offshore, as long as it was not a DS version, one would be fine. I do not picture the OP with a time frame of 5 yrs to do this trip, sailing in what ever condition to meet a time frame. I could/would see waiting out the "storm" seasons where ever they are. The Jeanneau would also make passages generally speaking quicker than the Ta shing. So less time at sea, etc. 

BUT, I would say that there are some other modern design cruisers that would be better than either of the two models in question. Then again, why did the owner of local dealer choose a Jeanneau, when he also had C&C, Tartan, X-Yacht, Dehler, Santa Cruz, and Elan as other boats to choose from? Most of the above seem to have better boats per say, yet they choose a 49iP, ie a performance version with a deep fin, tall mast and upgraded deck gear that one, at least I would, probably put on a std 49i. I would also have no issues with a 42i either. 

In the end, it comes down to personal what style of boat one wants to be on. I certainly do not see a reason to have a boat that will take 3-4 weeks to go from Ca to Hawaii, when one can get a faster style that will do it in 2-3 weeks, which is what I would see the difference between the two boats in question. That extra week could add up to the need to go thru a large storm. But that is my way of thinking, not that it makes sense or not.

Either boat after 5 yrs at see doing this, one is going to take some kind of hit on depreciation. Granted not as much as a 20 yr old boat. But then again, do I want a 20 yr old boat that it is hard to tell what is right or wrong as far as behind the fiberglass etc. I know one will say one needs a survey, but being in the home construction part of the industry, I have seen old and new homes being shoddily built, and well built! And some of the supposdily better built local homes, you could not get me to buy!

Not sure that Jeanneau 42i would be my first choice, but I would take the 42i over the Tashing Baba.

Marty


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

I often get put off by the wording of "sailing around the world". Makes it sound way to important, then it really is. I much prefer someone simply saying, We like to spend some time in the Caribbean and I always wanted to see Greece and I understand the Med is a great place .....


Sailing around he world always brings images to my mind of going around the horn while fighting 30 foot seas and hurricane force winds ....


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

In fact many many real around the World folks don't even talk much about it...you're right Free


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

Holy shieet,
That Baba 40 displaces 32000lbs.
Am I reading that correct?
Guess if your crossing an ocean, that 32000lbs would help make for an easy motion.
*Additional Specs, Equipment and Information:*
​*Builder/Designer*
Builder: BABA / TashingDesigner: Bob Perry*Dimensions*
LOA: 39'11"LWL: 34'06"Beam: 13'08"Displacement: 32000Draft: 6'Ballast: 12000


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## kwaltersmi (Aug 14, 2006)

sailortjk1 said:


> Holy shieet,
> That Baba 40 displaces 32000lbs.
> Am I reading that correct?


This is where SD steps in with his patented "Lead Mine" comment.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

I have no dog in this fight. You can buy what you want. But did I read right? A broker is suggesting you choose between a Jeauneau and Baba for world cruising? What, is that all he has in stock or something???

Ever been on either of these boats? I have been on both. It is about as far apples to oranges as you can get.

I seem to be the designated point person on this forum for defending production types of boats, esp Catalina, Jeauneau, and Bene. I find they (including and excluding some crappy models) are the right choice for the right purpose. FOR THE RIGHT PURPOSE.

This of course will come across wrong, and I am sorry as I do not mean to offend, but if you have to ask the question about which of those two boats for a circum, you either have little offshore/storm experience or little far distance cruising experience. It is the equivalent of asking should I buy a Hummer for mountain climbing or a Lexus? Some Lexus would do it... hey... they MIGHT all do it... but the Hummer is the better choice for mountain climbing.

I have not done a circumnav. I will be very upfront. But I have been in many, many storms. When you plan to circum or cross any large body of water, you HAVE TO HAVE A BOAT THAT WILL TAKE THAT POUNDING WITHOUT HURTING THE CREW. In essence, a sea kindly boat.

I have been in light displacement boats and heavy displacement boats. The heavy displacements ride better, period. True, you will be in a light displacement for a shorter period of time... maybe. But what you do not realize is that when it is howling outside and you are in strong seas, my experience is that you have to really reef down a light displacement boat almost to the point that she does not perform well at all. That coupled with the bow digging into the seas makes your boat want to lunge and stop - like driving a car with both feet. The heavier boats just roll with it.

Now, let's talk about tankage. You need a LOT - especially diesel. Most production boats do not come with a high cap of diesel because sailing around the world is not their design point. You do not have a protected rudder. You do not have a collision bulkhead (though many blue water's do not, I will admit). You do not have the storage for goods, large lockers for sails and lines and other gear, deep bilges for long tacks when beating for weeks, lock down portholes THAT DO NOT LEAK UNDER PRESSURE, heavy running rigging, a cutter config for running a storm jib, a tight cockpit in case of pooping and so only small volumes of water can be taken on, tight quarters down below for comfort in moving around. WHat about the bulkheads? How are they secured? Small hatches that are typically a higher grade hatch for protection of the thousands of pounds of breaking water that WILL break over your nose and many of these hatches even have double dogs. The list goes on...

Blue water boats, like the Baba, are made for a purpose: long distance cruising and crossing oceans in some level of safety. It is not to say you cannot do it in a Jeauneau, or Hunter, or Catalina, or Bene... but that does not make it the best choice.

ON THE OTHER HAND, if you are rarely if ever going to cross an ocean, I find I dislike many of the blue water boats for exactly the same reasons. The storage is nice, but they are T-I-G-H-T down below. If it is not howling outside, you will be motoring. They are just flat not as fun to sail (no offense). The comfort and liveability of a typical production boat versus an equal and often far greater sized blue water boat is VASTLY better on the production boat. That is why I often point people to these boats for island hopping and long distance coastal cruising. Depending on the boat, I might quantify this as 5-7 days at sea in relative safety. But at 5-7 weeks at sea, you will take a lot more of a chance of getting caught in a serious storm and getting banged up pretty well. It is not to say that a production boat cannot (and has not) made it, but the odds are better with blue water boats.

Buy the production boat and go see the islands and baja and S America and all that entails. If you find these continents have bored you to death, ship it via dockwise or buy a different boat across the Pacific. If you are absolutely, positively, without a doubt, going to circum, buy a blue water boat. I would and have considered:

Blue Water boats worth considering (my personal preferences):

Mason, Tayana, Hylas, Valiant, Baba, Panda, HR, Taswell, Passport. The best compromise of the boats that I have been on for liveability (in order), are Taswell and Mason, Hylas, Tayana and Passport, Panda, Baba, Valiant.

Coastal worth considering for long distance coastal (my personal preferences):

Catalina, Beneteau, Jeauneau (probably in order), depending on the model. My preference is Catalina. Of that line my preference for long distance would be (in order): 400, 42, 470 or 380 (a tie) and 440.

Why you would limit yourself to those two boats (Baba and Jeauneau), I do not understand. Find a real broker that has actually been on a sailboat or prefarably lived aboard and gone cruising/long distance blue water. HUGE DIFFERENCE. You will hear a considerably different tone from those that have spent much time in a storm offshore.

Go here: Offshore Atlantic Yachts, Inc.

They seem to be passionate about their business and are very specialized. Ask for Dan Dabney. Don't let them talk you into a Valiant for Island hopping... but if you are certain to circum, talk to experts in that. And don't buy a Jeauneau to go around the world.

- CD


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

sailortjk1 said:


> Holy shieet,
> That Baba 40 displaces 32000lbs.
> Am I reading that correct?
> Guess if your crossing an ocean, that 32000lbs would help make for an easy motion.
> ...


Maybe even more than that. The Tayana 42 weighed in at 37,500. The tanks were NOT full, that is no liveaboard gear, etc. In essense, a dry boat.

- CD


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## Paul_L (Sep 16, 2004)

CD,
>But what you do not realize is that when it is howling outside and you are in
> strong seas, my experience is that you have to really reef down a light
> displacement boat almost to the point that she does not perform well at all.
You say this as if it was a bad thing. Being able to sail well with small sails is much easier on the typical Mom and Pop cruising crew. Having to fly a lot of canvas in heavy weather means the pressures on everything are much higher and effort to work on the sails is higher. Lighter weight boats may have their issues in heavy weather, but needing to fly less canvas is not one of them.

Paul L


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Paul_L said:


> CD,
> >But what you do not realize is that when it is howling outside and you are in
> > strong seas, my experience is that you have to really reef down a light
> > displacement boat almost to the point that she does not perform well at all.
> ...


Paul,

You missunderstood me.

When you reef down that sail, she loses a lot of her shape. This is especially true of the roller furlers, but mains are really not that much different.

As such, you get pushed more laterally than good forward motion. This is a bad thing. Why? WIthout a good head of steam you lose your steerage and also have difficulty pointing.

That is one of the reasons I pointed out the benefits of a cutter rig. You can still fly a storm jib or small sail that keeps the center of effort closer to the middle of the boat and allows for better control and with more of the proper sized sail exposed, you get more speed and control. Although you do not have to have a cutter rig for this purpose, it is one of the benefits. But in general, a heavy boat can still fly (safely) a bit more sail. In fact, most of these boats really don't get legs until the 20's. By about 20, I am ready to drop in a reef.

I agree that many of them fly too much canvas. Just because you can throw it all out there does not mean you should. I assume that is what you meant.

- CD


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Some boats like my 85 Jeanneau have a baby front stay. SOme of it for support purposes, the other to fly a storm sail! 

I do agree that reefed jibs especially will lose there power when reefed. Depending upon the actual main jib %, this is also where a fractional rig will make sense, in that you can keep flying the 110 which generally speaking might be the largest headsail, reef the main at 15-20, then double later, or remove the jib and use just the main. 

Then again, how and what sails you have up, will depend upon wind speed and wave ht/frequency as to what will net the best headway etc as far as speed goes. 

What I personally do not like about the heavier boats, is one NEEDS 15-20 knots of wind to move. so if in a light air, you do not move but 1-2 knots, where the light rig will move 2-4 knots, still making some headway. 

But like a lot of things, this ends up being personal preference to a point. 

Also I am not sure with a proper set up boat for some reasonable amount of speed, and correct planning on the skipper, that one would need 5-7 weeks for a passage! Most can be made in less than 3 for the longest, and many even thru the south pacific could be less than 7 days if one island hops to a degree too. 

I also doubt we are talking about going around cape horn! More like the panama canal from atlantic to pacific. Cape hope, well one will need to round there, but with weather forecasting the way it is today, one should be able to squeeze thru there with out issues if one is NOT in a hurry, and willing to wait for a 3-4 day high front.

In some cases, I personally feel folks overload themselves with gear, ie have a spare of everything on board, including a kitchen sink and motor! While I am not saying do not carry spares.......jut how many of us carry too many spares for daysailing and local cruising? I do. 

I still feel a properly setup cruiser like the 42i, the Cats CD mentioned etc will make it on a 5 yr, I wanna go here, now lets go here, then there.......just fine! A 15 month you need to be here by ________(date) like the ARC world cruise, one will have to sail thru some hurricane area's, places that will have a storm or two, as one may not have the ability to wait a day or two......then again, I have not looked real close to see how date sensitive programs like this are. So with one of these, you would probably want a bit stouter boat. Then again, I also really doubt, too many of us would take off with a cat 5 hurricane on the lose near us either. 

Off to a YC meeting.......

marty


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## Paul_L (Sep 16, 2004)

Cruisingdad said:


> Paul,
> 
> You missunderstood me.
> 
> ...


Having the right sail up is important. I just can't see the argument that lighter weight boats are more likely to have the wrong sail up or poorly set sail in heavy weather than a heavier boat. A lighter boat needs less sail area up to maintain a reasonable and controllable speed through the water. Smaller sails are easier to handle by a short-handed crew. No argument that it is harder to get good sail shape on furled sail. Many lighter boats will have a relatively small sail on their furler to start with, maybe 100-110%. Versus a typically much larger headsail on a heavier boat. Furling a 100% down 10-15% is reasonable to maintain good shape. This gets you to a pretty high wind speed. Beyond that, you need to go to smaller sails.

Paul L


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

I give up. I do not think we are going to agree on this and that is fine. Each to his own.

But I will tell you that dad's boat and mine are vastly different in how they handle seas and motion. In fact, they are pretty different in almost everything. That difference is not all better - just different for a different design point. They are about the same length. One is blue water one is a production cruiser. I will be more comfortable island hopping and long distance coastal cruising, he will be more comfortable in a storm/gale. No one is talking about hurricanes here. Just storms - which are not only possible but likely on a long distance passage. In fact, gales are likely on a short passage.

If you feel comfortable taking a Catalina or Jeauneau around the world, God bless you and have a good time. It is the wrong boat for that and not its design point. It is not to say you cannot do it or it cannot be done, but I would not swim across the English channel either. 

OF course, what do I know? Nothing. I have not done a circimnavigation... but I know better than most the differences between those two types of boats as few days go by that I am not on both or sailing one or the other. Comparing a Jeauneau or Catalina to a Baba or Valiant or Tayana is so far off the scale of comparability I cannot tell you. ABout the only thing they have in common is a mast. 

I am not downing these boats. For God's sakes, I own one and am the tech editor for them. I LOVE CATALINA's. I will probably end up getting dad's boat one day too. I spend enough time on ti right now I might as well own it. 

At any rate, fair winds. I bow out.

- CD


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## Paul_L (Sep 16, 2004)

CD,
>Comparing a Jeauneau or Catalina to a Baba or Valiant or Tayana is so far off
> the scale of comparability I cannot tell you. ABout the only thing they have
> in common is a mast.
Now this we agree on. Matter of fact I agree with most of what you said on this topic. I just disagree with the sails part of your argument. Easily moved boats take less sails and less work. That doesn't mean that some ultra-light boat is the way to go offshore, likewise a brick-sh*t house of teak furniture and chain is not the way to go offshore either. All boats are trade-offs. If you are going to take a lighter weight boat offshore it had better be well built. 

Paul L


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

Paul_L said:


> Having the right sail up is important. I just can't see the argument that lighter weight boats are more likely to have the wrong sail up or poorly set sail in heavy weather than a heavier boat. A lighter boat needs less sail area up to maintain a reasonable and controllable speed through the water. Smaller sails are easier to handle by a short-handed crew. No argument that it is harder to get good sail shape on furled sail. Many lighter boats will have a relatively small sail on their furler to start with, maybe 100-110%. Versus a typically much larger headsail on a heavier boat. Furling a 100% down 10-15% is reasonable to maintain good shape. This gets you to a pretty high wind speed. Beyond that, you need to go to smaller sails.
> 
> Paul L


So Paul, are you saying that the Jeanneau is set up to be a world cruiser?

My 36' boat weighs in at under 14,000lbs dry. The Baba is over twice that and only 4' longer over all.

I would think that my production boat would get tossed around pretty good trying to ride out a gale on the open ocean. No matter what you do with the sails, your still going to get beat up.

Where as the heavy displacement full keeler is going to be much easier on the crew and a lot safer.


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## Paul_L (Sep 16, 2004)

sailortjk1 said:


> So Paul, are you saying that the Jeanneau is set up to be a world cruiser?
> 
> My 36' boat weighs in at under 14,000lbs dry. The Baba is over twice that and only 4' longer over all.
> 
> ...


I'm not advocating for the Jeanneau *at all*. All I said was that I disagreed with CD's argument on the sails. I happen to sail a medium weight modern design boat offshore. I find it much easier to sail in tough conditions than my previous classic heavier CCA design. It's all a trade-off. I do not know much about the build quality of the Jeaneau in question, but I suspect it is not that great. On the other hand if you take a Baba 40 or Valiant, you are going to have to purchase one that has had a lot of systems upgraded or do the work yourself. There's nothing safe about a Baba or Valiant that has crevice corrosion in the chain plates after 30 years. People do long distance offshore sailing in all kinds of boats. If it is safety you are looking at, then crew experience and qualifications probably makes more difference than boat. I find it interesting that so many of the arguments for a heavy boat are based on comfort. I find this an odd argument. As Bob Perry says, we aren't talking about comfort here, we are talking about levels of discomfort. If you want to make yourself more comfortable in rough conditions, then buy longer waterline. If you are in a 35-40 ft boat, it will be uncomfortable.

Paul L


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

Thanks for clarifying.



> There's nothing safe about a Baba or Valiant that has crevice corrosion in the chain plates after 30 years.


Agreed 100%


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Just to throw some gas in the fire...

They are blue water boats aren't they?? I mean...they crossed oceans, went around the world...they don't seem to reef that much either...

CLICK HERE

Would I do it?? Probably yes...just for the ride....

I wouldn't do it in my boat..it would be like pissing Mike Tysson off...

Want to know why they do it?? because when hit by a storm they sail it...they do not coccon themselves in 3 foot thick hulls and bob around till the storm is over...they SAIL THE STORM..that's the difference..

And then there are 2 options...a heavy dispalcement museum boat...built to bob around the storm till it passes...or a lighter faster more sailable boat, that can still be sailed even during the storm...both boats are different....I would chose the lighter faster....

I know a guy that spent 4 days in a mid atalantic storm, lying in the floor of his saloon, amidst vomit, **** food and what else, while he waited the storm to pass...in one of those museum boats.....

I also know one that sailed the storm and got out of it...fast......he was in a Gyb Sea 42, (production boat like a Jeanneau only a little better) on his 3rd return trip from Lisbon to Cuba....


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## Pamlicotraveler (Aug 13, 2006)

I think you would like the Baba more for its quality and boat feel. Do you want a Winnebago vacation (no offense Cam) or a boat that feels and sails like a boat? If you are racing someone, buy a Jeanneau or other production boat. But the space and open feel is because newer boats are often more beamy, and the price is because they are using laminated wood and fiberglass in the interior. Some people prefer the more open feel of big windows and fiberglass, but I prefer a nautical interior.

If it were me I would be looking at the Baba type boat, heavier, sea-kindly, efficient use of space, heavy fiberglass, exterior teak trim, etc. I would be very thorough in finding the right surveyor; one that YOU pick that knows these types of boats and their problems. Some of these Taiwanese boats used iron tanks but they may have long ago been replaced. But things like that can be a big issue. Don't buy somebody else's problems.

One idea also...in addition to the survey, hire Bob Perry (the designer of the boat) for guidance. You pay him a few hundred and he will talk you through the whole process. It is a rare opportunity to talk to a real expert. He may also be able to guide you to the right surveyor.

A production boat depreciates faster, but an older boat requires more maintenance - I think most would agree that's the trade-off. Don't pretend you can buy a 20+ year old boat and not have significant maintenance costs. But if the boat is well maintained and updated it will be worth it.

Have fun and go sailing.


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## Paul_L (Sep 16, 2004)

Giulietta,
That ain't no Mom and Pop cruising crew on those boats.

Paul L


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

Paul_L said:


> Giulietta,
> That ain't no Mom and Pop cruising crew on those boats.
> 
> Paul L


That's for sure.

A friend, who's a local pro-sailor, crewed on Pirates of the Caribbean during the 05-06 Volvo Ocean Race. He said a shift in mindset is required to become a machine 24/7, during each leg of the trip.

It's the ultimate challenge of a sailor's endurance under extreme performance pressure, with minimalist comfort and accommodations - or lack there-of.


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

Okay, I am going to show you a picture of my bottom:










Now thats a flat bottom, no?

We can argue about this all day, and we have before, and we won't get anywhere because there is too much personal preference involved here.

Even though my boat is not specifically built for "Bluewater", I love the way she handles running in big seas. When handling the waves from the quarter it is easy to correct steering down the waves. Comfort in that aspect is just a matter of the water line. Obviously, longer than 34' would be nice, but thats what I got. Now heading into the waves, she does pound a bit. So days on end of that would not be nice. But who the hell wants to beat into a storm and the waves, go a different way. What is bad about my boat is the wind against the tide chop that occurs in the bay. My boat lurches, but that is a factor of weight. And again, unless I have to get somewhere specific, I just change my course.

Things we don't know. Where is the OP going? Until he replies to that, this is all a moot point.

Obviously, five years in a Baba is going to wear easier on the boat than a Jeanneau, a factor of build quality, not sailing ability.

When I stated earlier that the Jeanneau would suit my needs, my needs are down the coast, South America, Panama Canal, Caribe, East Coast. If I am going to go pond hopping multiple times, I'll buy something else. Probably not as sturdy as the Baba, but better built than production class.

Until we know what his plans are...........

And while we are waiting, go watch Captain's Courageous to remind yourself what sailing is really about.


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## RhosynMor (Apr 23, 2008)

IMHO too much is being made of the heavy displacement boats.It is very very possible- make that probable -that you could circumnavigate quite happily and never sail in winds over 40 kts, recreational circumnavigations are almost wqholly in light air. The ability of a skipper bears much more relation to the seaworthyness of a boat than does the bopat itself- within reason- The days of having to have a full keel heavy boat surrounded by inches of fibreglass and dark interiors are long gone. I have a very good friend with a Baba 40, and it is a very nice boat. I sail a Jeanneau 38 Gin Fizz ketch 1980, fin keel, skeg rudder, weight is 15,600. It will sail rings around the Baba 40 in any weather. 
When it gets really heavy the broad shoulders of the Baba have a tendency to pound, the very fine entry of the Jene allows her to cut through slop. The big differences are:in lighter air where the Baba will have to motor and the Jene will be able to carry 4 or 5 kts under sail, the Baba is much more luxurious in all weather, and drier due to the freeboard. On a long passage the Baba will average 100 miles a day, the Jene 145, that makes a huge difference over 2 weeks. If I wanted to sail high lats than it would be different.


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## capttb (Dec 13, 2003)

I've actually sailed 30 NM to admire a nice museum quality Baba and you can't help but fall in love with them, but seems like it's really throwing someone in the deep end for their first boat. It's gonna make that "New boatowner" "not too much experience sailing" learning curve really steep.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

TrueBlue said:


> with minimalist comfort and accommodations - or lack there-of.


Minimalist is an understatement...don't you agree??


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

cupholders??????


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

bestfriend said:


> cupholders??????


Where??? where???? I couldn't see them


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

> Minimalist is an understatement...don't you agree??


Agreed - more like "lack there-of". Wonder where you go when nature calls, while the boat is screeching along at 28-30 kts?


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Now I know why this is a better boat...a real BLUE WATER BOAT....

Must be the exquisite wood decor, and the bath tub cockpit....



















One thing I tell you all here (and you can copy this onto your hard drives)...

I wouldn't be caught DEAD or ALIVE in that thing...even for coastal....less say for crossings....

Such 360 deg protection saves money...one is already in a coffin...


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

Giulietta said:


> Where??? where???? I couldn't see them


No, I meant the lack of. Theres minimalism, and then there is just down right brutality(no cupholders!). I guess you just have to drink fast. Cabin boy, bring me another beer!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Giulietta said:


> Just to throw some gas in the fire...
> 
> They are blue water boats aren't they?? I mean...they crossed oceans, went around the world...they don't seem to reef that much either...
> 
> ...


Giu,
I gotta disagree with you on this one. You seem to be saying heavy displacement boats are built to be buttoned up and ride out a storm while lighter boats are built to sail through them. Both boats, if properly designed and constructed are quite capable of bobbing around or sailing through it. One will be much more comfortable than the other. It is more a function of crew experience and what they are willing to tolerate than boat displacement.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

teshannon said:


> Giu,
> I gotta disagree with you on this one.


No problems, TE....I don't mind...really...I like discussion...and here sometimes its a very good one...

and I don't seem to be saying it..I am saying it. (G)

Still....I wouldn't sail in that baba thing....but that's just me...

I mean...if I knew someone that had one and he said...hey Alex..want to come in for a sail?? I would go...but actaully sailing it?? nope.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

Giulietta said:


> Such 360 deg protection saves money...one is already in a coffin...


Giulietta,

Sorry, but I do not understand what you are trying to say in the quote above. Usually I understand you perfectly, but I just can't see what you are referring to in these photos. Could you explain a little more what you mean? Thanks.  - John


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

John..it was a jest or zest or how you say..I was implying I wouldn't cross an ocean in that either...

and with all that weight and deep cockpit when it sinks...you're already well enclosed.

And to spend money in fixing that old boat to cross the Atlantic, might as well just take a Jeanneau and beef it up for the same purpose...


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

Giulietta said:


> John..it was a jest or zest or how you say..


Ahh. Thanks. I'm a bit slow, but I get it now. Thanks for the chuckle. 

I will be embarrassed if you ever see my boat...


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Look...no boat emabarrasses me or you or anything...

I was simply implying that I wouldn't go across the ocean in that boat either...between that Baba boat and the Jeanneau..I think I rather go on the JEanneau..that's all.

I did not mean to offend you if you have a Baba...I appologize.

Now...those that know me, know that I really love old boats with classic lines...I just don't get much fun out of them..but I love the looks, lines etc.

Again, sorry


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

John, what boat do you have anyway?

Thanks


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

JohnRPollard said:


> I will be embarrassed if you ever see my boat...


You'd be embarrassed, he'd think my last boat was a floating mausoleum.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

Giulietta said:


> John, what boat do you have anyway?
> 
> Thanks


Giu,

Just playing along a bit -- I took no offense at your comments. We all have different preferences/styles.

We have a boat that is similar to the Baba in design, but smaller. It's a Pacific Seacraft 31 (with that green hull you don't like either):










(Please don't tease me about the less-than-full hoist on the spinnaker!! )



















And a little home-built tender:


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

I like you boat...I do...besides..the boat has to please YOU..not me..

But I swear I like it

I know your boat, there are 2 in Lisbon. One has gone around to Macau once. In China.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Giulietta said:


> No problems, TE....I don't mind...really...I like discussion...and here sometimes its a very good one...
> 
> and I don't seem to be saying it..I am saying it. (G)
> 
> ...


And think what you'd miss in life if didn't sail that baba thing.


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## blackjenner (Feb 5, 2010)

Giulietta said:


> No problems, TE....I don't mind...really...I like discussion...and here sometimes its a very good one...
> 
> and I don't seem to be saying it..I am saying it. (G)
> 
> Still....I wouldn't sail in that baba thing....but that's just me...


Understood. That doesn't mean the Baba isn't *sailed* in weather. I really don't guy it that any competent sailor would just let it bob around like a cork. I don't think Perry designed it to do that.


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## blackjenner (Feb 5, 2010)

JohnRPollard said:


> Giu,
> 
> And a little home-built tender:


I love that tender. I was talking to a broker, who made all kinds of claims of being old and salty, about tenders. I said I'd prefer a tender that, besides being rowed, can be sailed, if possible.

He looked at me and said, "get an inflatable and an outboard. you will never sail from your ancorage to shore and back."

Uh huh.

I love it when people tell me what I will and will not do.


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## ddsailor25 (Jan 29, 2001)

I read all the postings and didn't see if Tom made a decision on what boat he purchased? My wife and I are also considering a blue water cruiser for a liveaboard and coastal cruising. We understand that we could get more of a performance/cruiser, but we just love these heavy displacement boat. If the boat brings a smile to your face and feels like home, I think your more likely to keep on on maintance and overall upkeep. We don't overly mind if the boat is slower and we need to power sail more, but we just want a good home that we can love that will get us to our destination. 
On a side note if anybody has a ta shing 40, HC 38, tayana 37 or a Lord Nelson 41 on the east coast of the USA we would be very interested in chatting.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

ddsailor25 said:


> I read all the postings and didn't see if Tom made a decision on what boat he purchased? My wife and I are also considering a blue water cruiser for a liveaboard and coastal cruising. We understand that we could get more of a performance/cruiser, but we just love these heavy displacement boat. If the boat brings a smile to your face and feels like home, I think your more likely to keep on on maintance and overall upkeep. We don't overly mind if the boat is slower and we need to power sail more, but we just want a good home that we can love that will get us to our destination.
> On a side note if anybody has a ta shing 40, HC 38, tayana 37 or a Lord Nelson 41 on the east coast of the USA we would be very interested in chatting.


That is because he made all of 2 posts, ie #1 and 7 on here, and has not been heard from since! He could very well be sunk in the netherlands of nowhere, or off sailing a different boat altogether, or lost his wad when the stock market crashed or ................


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

There is some pretty stupid talk on this thread.

The Baba 40 is a big, heavy "modified" full keel, ruggedly built boat. The hull sections are very similar to those of the Valiant 40. With a tall rig the boat sails extremely well and AIRLOOM in Seattle has compiled a very good race record over the years including a Trans Pac. I have raced on AIRLOOM. Without the 6' taller rig the boat is no light air rocket but it moves like a train in a breeze, is quite close winded and is very comfortable in a lumpy sea. One of the nicest things about the Baba 40 is just how beautifully balanced it is. One of the worst things about the Baba 40 is how hard it is to control in reverse.

I consider the Baba 40 one of my very best designs. When I designed the Tashiba 31 and 36 I used what I learned on the Baba 40 to insure good sailing boats.

You need to be very careful when you start generalizing about boats you have never sailed.


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

Bob,

There's one thing wrong with the Tashiba 31...I don't own one 

(your T31 and Baba 30 designs have always impressed me as damned-near perfect small(ish) cruising boats).


Sigh...enough dreaming...it's back to wrestling with the 2GM20 and its mixing elbow on my Cal. Now, where did I put that BMFH?


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Bob must mean THIS Bad girl with a bone in her teeth!

or THIS

Marty


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

I have a buddy who wants to sell his Tashiba 36. It's on the East Coast.


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