# Dripless Shaft Seal versus Stuffing Box



## Cruisingdad

I took a tour of the Catalina facility last week. Really enjoyed meeting the folks and was shocked at the systems they have in place there. For those that have not see it (catalina lover or not), it is interesting - especially when compared to something like Valiant which only put out 8-12 boats/year.

Anyways, Catalina has moved away from the dripless shaft seals. My previous boats (320 and 380) had a traditional stuffing box but my C400 has a dripless. all the new vessels out of Catalina are back to a traditional stuffing box.

I inquired with them about this and they responded that effectively they changed because a stuffing box gives some warnings before going out and is not necessarily a big deal when it does. However, the dripless may fail with little notice and can become a, "water hose" down below. 

I thought about that, and I tend to agree with them. I saw another Catalina 400 when I had my boat pulled and the yard owner told me the 400 had an emergency pull becuase their dripless failed and threatened the boat. 

On the flip side, keeping a dry boat sure has its advantages too. Sure makes tracking down any potential leaks easier.

I am curious what others think about this? Opinions? 

Brian


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## tommays

I use the wonder packing  and it gets wet BUT it does not really drip faster than it can evaporate from all the motor heat 

BUT even a small drip would go to the small deep part of my bilge that has a big capacity BUT with the pump i installed there is never even a gallon of water in the boat 

The REAL issues i see are boats like a C&C 35 Mark I that literally do not have ANY bilge


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## casey1999

I cannot imagine why anyone would install a Dripless Shaft seal. Why install somthing on your boat that could fail at any moment and sink your boat? I thought about installing one until a friend whom has one tells me how rapidly they can fail. Dripless not for me.


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## CalebD

Think about it it like this.
It is probably cheaper for Catalina to go with the traditional stuffing box then a dripless shaft seal. The traditional stuffing box gradually exhibits failure mode as more water gets in as packing wears away. (New packing is < $20) If the Dripless Shaft Seal rubber bellows ever cracks, rips or otherwise fails you may need a haul out and a new bellows.
I'm with Catalina on this one. The traditional stuffing box is a tried and true, hundred+ year old technology. Using this method saves them money and makes their boats a little bit safer. It is a no brainer.


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## PBzeer

My boat came with a dripless shaft seal. I've had no problems with it.


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## casey1999

PBzeer said:


> My boat came with a dripless shaft seal. I've had no problems with it.


Until you boat sinks...


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## jameswilson29

Are there any statistics supporting the assertion that a traditional stuffing box is safer than a dripless shaft seal (DSS)?

I would think the insurance companies would consider a DSS an additional risk factor and increase the premium if this were true, especially if its failure results in a total loss.

I have read and heard merely anecdotal evidence of DSSs failing, including an article in Boat/US magazine. A DSS is a moving part, which needs periodic inspection and replacement in due time (10 years?).

I am not surprised that a production builder would use a less expensive traditional part based on an unsubstantiated belief among buyers.


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## casey1999

jameswilson29 said:


> Are there any statistics supporting the assertion that a traditional stuffing box is safer than a dripless shaft seal (DSS)?
> 
> I would think the insurance companies would consider a DSS an additional risk factor and increase the premium if this were true, especially if its failure results in a total loss.
> 
> I have read and heard merely anecdotal evidence of DSSs failing, including an article in Boat/US magazine. A DSS is a moving part, which needs periodic inspection and replacement in due time (10 years?).
> 
> I am not surprised that a production builder would use a less expensive traditional part based on an unsubstantiated belief among buyers.


I am not sure on the statistics. But I hear a lot of bad things:
Emergency advise needed on a leaking pss dripless shaft seal ! [Archive] - Boat Repair Forum, Classifieds & Photo Gallery

I do not think insurace companies get that involved with how you boat is made, although maybe they should. Insuranace companies do not care if you use plastic through hulls or chinese carbon steel chain for you anchor rode. Like your car they do not raise your rates because your SUV has tires on it that have been recalled and are known to blow out at highway speeds. Buyer beware.


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## jrd22

I've had both. From my perspective I can't see a lot of difference as far as risk to the boat goes. The stuffing box uses a piece of heavy duty hose to hold the packing gland and there is arguably more torque on that hose from the friction of the packing than from the carbon block sliding on the stainless ring of a dripless type. Which is more likely to rip or tear and create a large leak? How often do you change that hose, I'm guessing most people have never changed it or even thought about the torque put on it. Dripless types recommend that the bellows (which is very thick and heavy duty) be changed every 8-10 years IIRC and that includes the hose clamps, and I just can't see one failing in that short amount of time. Another aspect is shaft wear, not a safety issue, but an expense over time from wear at the packing. There is no wear on the shaft of the dripless type. I'm not convinced that there is a big difference either way from a safety perspective but if there were any statistics that compared failures of the two types I'd be interested to see them.


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## eherlihy

I believe that jrd22 hit the nails on the head. Less wear & tear on the shaft is a major positive attribute of a dripless system.

I swapped my stuffing box over to a PSS dripless last year. I was impressed by the quality of the components, and the statement that most PWCs use them (anything that can survive a PWC is a good thing). I was, however shocked at the price, and the fact that the recommended replacement interval is *6 years*, although I believe that they could run for 10.



> As with any rubber hose below waterline, the PSS bellows must be inspected on a regular basis for any sign of wear, aging or chemical deterioration. PYI suggests preventative maintenance. The PSS bellow should be replaced in six year intervals. During bellows replacement it is recommended the o-rings & set screws in the stainless steel rotor also be replaced.
> 
> Bellows may need to be more frequently inspected in an environment where non-sealed batteries emit sulfuric acid. Sulfuric acid vapor will accelerate rubber deterioration, as will an ozonater.


Ever since replacement I have had NOT A DROP of water in the bilge.


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## Trinidoc

I've just bought a PSS dripless also. Not tested it yet but the rubber is quite thick and feels sturdy. I believe that with regular inspections and changing as eherlihy said it should be fine. I plan to reinforce the stainless steel ring that keeps the compression on with perhaps a spare anode to prevent any possible slip. 
Despite that I must admit the fact that the sea would come rushing in with a failure and little could probably be done to stem it is somewhat disconcerting.


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## Seaduction

Installed my PSS in 1998. Changed the bellows this spring (2012) as a matter of maintenance during haulout. Saved the old one for a spare because it appeared very serviceable. Never had a blow-out. Follow the directions for installation. Don't deviate for any reason.


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## miatapaul

jameswilson29 said:


> Are there any statistics supporting the assertion that a traditional stuffing box is safer than a dripless shaft seal (DSS)?
> 
> I would think the insurance companies would consider a DSS an additional risk factor and increase the premium if this were true, especially if its failure results in a total loss.
> 
> I have read and heard merely anecdotal evidence of DSSs failing, including an article in Boat/US magazine. A DSS is a moving part, which needs periodic inspection and replacement in due time (10 years?).
> 
> I am not surprised that a production builder would use a less expensive traditional part based on an unsubstantiated belief among buyers.


I don't think the insurance companies really put that much thought into there premiums. Size, experience and some fictitious chart and out comes the rate. Also they likely have that factored into the original rate for boats that come with them from the factory. I doubt there are that many adding them to make much of a difference statistically and that is how they are supposed to set rates.

Your surprised a production builder would use a less expensive part? Seems to be there modus operandi as long as they can say it is for the benefit of the customer. Also the warranty work is much cheaper as well. I think you are giving the corporations way to much credit, both boat builder and insurance. While customer satisfaction is important, profits rule all decisions.

As far as traditional vs drip-less goes, it really makes a lot of sense. Advance warning, gradual failure and much cheaper repair seems to win out. While I think some of the claims that drip-less will sink your boat are a bit exaggerated. For me looking at used boats it is one less thing to worry about, How long has it been on, and has it been maintained? Don't worry about it just replace the packing is a lot easier. But if the boat had a drip-less I would not run out and change it to a packing, just keep an eye on it and maintain it on a better than recommended schedule and you will be fine. I don't think there is that much of an advantage to swing one way or the other.


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## RobGallagher

My current boat has a drip-less. It was on when I purchased it, otherwise I would keep to the old stuffing box technology.

I'm pretty far out on my own mooring so I rely on neighbors in the mooring field to keep an eye on things.

If/when the time comes, I'll probably go back to a traditional stuffing box with the high tech stuffing material.

My mast is keel stepped so my bilge is rarely completely dry so what's the point in pretending


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## eherlihy

My mast is keel stepped too, and the bilge _is _completely dry with the PSS Shaft Seal.


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## casey1999

Who cares if you have a dry bilge. Any time you do some serious ocean sailing your bilge will get water in it. So what, boats are made to get wet inside and out. If your boat cannot handle a little water, somthing is wrong.


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## casey1999

A good link from someone who should know:
Dripless Shaft Seals


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## eherlihy

casey1999 said:


> Who cares if you have a dry bilge. Any time you do some serious ocean sailing your bilge will get water in it. So what, boats are made to get wet inside and out. If your boat cannot handle a little water, somthing is wrong.


You may not care, but I, and several others, do. I do not want stagnant water to collect in the bilge. For more on why see this thread. It can also lead to that "boaty smell."

If you don't mind water in _your _bilge, that's your business...


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## alturia

Not all dripless shaft seals use bellows like PSS. Take a look for instance at the Lasdrop Gen II dripless shaft seal. There is no bellows to tear or give way.

Nautical Specialties manufacturer of Lasdrop Shaft-Seals


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## jrd22

Interesting article Casey. He makes some good observations about what can go wrong and that maintenance is required. Bottom line: the author has a dripless shaft seal on his boat. 
I put a shaft zinc on forward of the stainless ring on the seal instead of a hose clamp.


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## RobGallagher

eherlihy said:


> My mast is keel stepped too, and the bilge _is _completely dry with the PSS Shaft Seal.


Somehow rain water always finds it's way down my mast and into the bilge. So, I figure a few more drops won't matter much.


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## ccriders

alturia said:


> Not all dripless shaft seals use bellows like PSS. Take a look for instance at the Lasdrop Gen II dripless shaft seal. There is no bellows to tear or give way.
> 
> Nautical Specialties manufacturer of Lasdrop Shaft-Seals


So its either bellows or "O" rings, neither of which are second generation technology. I think I would rather have packing material than "O" rings.
"O" rings can be a challenge.


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## paul323

I had a "failure" of a PSS seal. First hand! Still sweat thinking about it.

In the PSS design, a carbon bushing on the bellows rubs against the rotor, a steel ring, to provide the watertight seal. The rotor is held in place on the propshaft with two grub screws - each with a second grub screw behind the first to prevent backing out,

In my case, the grub screws loosened over time, and while moving into my slip the rotor slipped about 1". I am guessing the engine moved on the engine mounts when I put her into reverse, putting pressure on the loose rotor. Luckily I heard the rushing of water before I left her, or she could have sunk at the dock. Within 5 minutes the water level was within 1/2 of the cabin sole. Think 3-4 hosepipes fully on.

People have alluded to this in this thread, but just in case anybody here has a PSS seal I want to be perfectly clear: ENSURE THAT THE ROTOR IS LOCKED IN PLACE. Check next time you are in the boat; a hose clamp, zinc, or stainless steel collet will work. http://ct4.pbase.com/g1/84/622984/3/131607031.5lrRHrj9.jpg (from MaineSails excellent PSS Shaft Seal Installation Photo Gallery by Compass Marine at pbase.com)

The two grub screws are not enough. it's like driving without airbag, seatbelt - or doors. Beats me why PSS doesn't recommend this - reputable yards add a backup as a matter of course - they seem like nice folk, and set me free grub screws to re-attach my rotor to the shaft. CHECK YOURS. Sorry to rant, but that was a lot of water.....


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## casey1999

eherlihy said:


> You may not care, but I, and several others, do. I do not want stagnant water to collect in the bilge. For more on why see this thread. It can also lead to that "boaty smell."
> 
> If you don't mind water in _your _bilge, that's your business...


I would like a dry bilge if possible and keep my stuffing box. My plan is to build a small bilge area around the stuffing box with its own bilge pump. That way the main bilge will keep totally dry while this small bilge will take care of the small amount of shaft seal leaks. I would use a shower type sump / pump package like previous poster mentioned, but the V drive makes the fit too tight. Project is underway Saturday.

Fininshed dam and installed Whale low profile bilge pump (in addition to the automatic bilge pump in the now dry main bilge. Everything works like a champ.


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## Maine Sail

I would suspect Catalina moved back to a traditional stuffing box because they are about 1/3 the cost of a PSS (based on wholesale pricing and Catalina pays less than I do I am sure).

The installation is also less costly for Catalina with a traditional gland not having to run an extra hose for the vent.

The PSS seals are extremely reliable and are used by the USCG and the world best builders. I know of some in commercial used with over 10k hours on them.

All the failures of PSS I have read of have been due to installer or owner error. The stainless rotors do not slip if properly & competently installed. I have seen 20 year old PSS seals still working perfectly. I have one customer who still has the old cloth covered bellows, this despite my very strong suggestion he replace it. I don't think PYI has made those bellows for about 15-20 years.

The term "properly installed" means the grub/set screws that contact the shaft are only ever tightened once. ONCE!!!! _Tightened_ and _used_ are two different things. They also need to be tightened to the proper torque with the proper Allen key.. PSS ships the proper Allen key but I still see grub screws molested by using the wrong Allen key.

Often times installers mess up the adjustment or compression of the bellows. Sadly they think nothing of loosening the set screws and simply moving or re-adjusting the rotor and snugging up the set screws. PLEASE DO NOT DO THIS! If this is done it is no longer a _proper_ installation and you have just increased the risk of the rotor slipping and a leak. If you need to adjust the bellows you need to use brand new set screws.

These set screws can only be tightened once because the shaft, usually Aqualoy or Nitronic, is harder than the grub screw. These _volcano head_ screws rely on the initial "cut" or bite into the shaft for the grip. Loosen the screw and move the rotor, even 1/8" and you need new screws.

PYI Says this right in the installation instructions:

*"Do not re-use the supplied cupped pointed sets screws."*

What is a one time use? If you tighten the set screws onto the shaft even once, that is your use. For example if you are installing the PSS and adjust it, tighten the set screw then realize the adjustment was wrong you now need to use new set screws. This is installer error numero-uno with PSS seals....









For years I have installed PSS seals with "clamp collars" from McMaster Carr as added insurance. Hose clamps and zincs are really not the ideal solution but a clamp collar is designed for this:









Here's a better view:









PYI saw me using these and they now offer their own "clamp collars". IMHO all PSS seals should come standard with a clamp collar, and a bag of extra set screws, but I digress. It would virtually eliminate installer error and slipping rotors and help eliminate the _"I had a PSS failure"_ threads, which were really "installer error".

Both standard glands and PSS seals are reliable. I have however seen and know of plenty of sinkings related to traditional boxes. They are also highly prone to installer or user error. Hoses on traditional boxes also need to be changed so a traditional gland is not immune from hose replacement maintenance.









Despite misleading marketing messages by packing manufacturers traditional boxes should not be run "dry" or "dripless" but they can be "drips-less" than older plant based packings.. They, all PSS type or traditional glands, need to pass some water (traditional) or vent air (PSS type), or they can overheat. Trapped air or not passing of water can also lead to stagnation and corrosion of the shafting up inside the log.

This is what stagnant water on a traditional box set to not drip can do:









Some boats are more prone to trapped air in the log hence PYI's move to all vented/plumbed seals even on slow moving craft. "Burping" on some boats was more than just at launch time so vents make a lot of sense on all sailboats.

Newer packings can be pretty darn _drips-less_ but should not be 100% _dripless._ it can be so minimal that engine warmth evaporates any drips before it accumulates.

Unfortunately I can't count the number of times an owner or yard mechanic has said to me _"Yeah when I adjusted the PSS."_ and I ask _"Did you replace the set screws?"_ and am treated with a blank stare? Scary stuff!

If a failure were to occur with a slipping rotor, in this scenario, it is installer error not the fault of PYI or the PSS seal.

I also very often see the vent holes plugged with brass or ss plugs. The vents should always be plumbed (power) or vented/used on sailboats. Metallic plugs should never, ever be used in the carbon rotor. There is a reason PYI uses a nylon hose barb and that is because the carbon is the most noble element in the galvanic scale and the differing expansion contraction characteristics between brass or SS and the carbon...

PYI says this in the instructions but many people choose not to read or heed them:

*"Do not tighten or replace the installed nylon hose barb fitting with a metallic fitting (bronze or stainless steel). Metal hose barbs will damage the carbon and destroy the PSS."*

Again, this type of failure, overheating of the seal, dissimilar metals corrosion or a split carbon would clearly get blamed on the PSS seal. Sadly on the "net" PSS takes the hit not the dolt who caused the failure by not following the installation instructions. These are examples of installer error not a failure on the part of the seal. I see the metallic plugs and set screw errors frequently.


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## eherlihy

Adding to Maine Sail's excellent post above;

When I purchased my PSS seal in April of 2012, it included 6 set screws. I believe that the reason there were so many is; 1 set (2 screws) were intended to hold the rotor in position, 1 set are meant to be snugged against the first set (thus locking the first set in position [See Maine's "better view" pic above], and allowing them to be used as spares) and the third set as spares. All of the set screws had thread locking compound pre-applied. Also included was the proper size allen wrench, and two sets of O rings.

The only part that PSS did not include was the Clamp Collar, which I have since purchased from McMaster-Carr.


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## ccriders

Maine Sail said:


> I still see grub screws molested by using the wrong Allen key.
> 
> I love it. What a tactful way to put FUBAR. Do you know how hard it can be to removed "molested" set screws?
> The rest is also very informative.


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## Cruisingdad

Maine Sail said:


> I would suspect Catalina moved back to a traditional stuffing box because they are about 1/3 the cost of a PSS (based on wholesale pricing and Catalina pays less than I do I am sure).
> 
> The installation is also less costly for Catalina with a traditional gland not having to run an extra hose for the vent.
> 
> The PSS seals are extremely reliable and are used by the USCG and the world best builders. I know of some in commercial used with over 10k hours on them.
> 
> All the failures of PSS I have read of have been due to installer or owner error. The stainless rotors do not slip if properly & competently installed. I have seen 20 year old PSS seals still working perfectly. I have one customer who still has the old cloth covered bellows, this despite my very strong suggestion he replace it. I don't think PYI has made those bellows for about 15-20 years.
> 
> The term "properly installed" means the grub/set screws that contact the shaft are only ever tightened once. ONCE!!!! _Tightened_ and _used_ are two different things. They also need to be tightened to the proper torque with the proper Allen key.. PSS ships the proper Allen key but I still see grub screws molested by using the wrong Allen key.
> 
> Often times installers mess up the adjustment or compression of the bellows. Sadly they think nothing of loosening the set screws and simply moving or re-adjusting the rotor and snugging up the set screws. PLEASE DO NOT DO THIS! If this is done it is no longer a _proper_ installation and you have just increased the risk of the rotor slipping and a leak. If you need to adjust the bellows you need to use brand new set screws.
> 
> These set screws can only be tightened once because the shaft, usually Aqualoy or Nitronic, is harder than the grub screw. These _volcano head_ screws rely on the initial "cut" or bite into the shaft for the grip. Loosen the screw and move the rotor, even 1/8" and you need new screws.
> 
> PYI Says this right in the installation instructions:
> 
> *"Do not re-use the supplied cupped pointed sets screws."*
> 
> What is a one time use? If you tighten the set screws onto the shaft even once, that is your use. For example if you are installing the PSS and adjust it, tighten the set screw then realize the adjustment was wrong you now need to use new set screws. This is installer error numero-uno with PSS seals....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For years I have installed PSS seals with "clamp collars" from McMaster Carr as added insurance. Hose clamps and zincs are really not the ideal solution but a clamp collar is designed for this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a better view:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PYI saw me using these and they now offer their own "clamp collars". IMHO all PSS seals should come standard with a clamp collar, and a bag of extra set screws, but I digress. It would virtually eliminate installer error and slipping rotors and help eliminate the _"I had a PSS failure"_ threads, which were really "installer error".
> 
> Both standard glands and PSS seals are reliable. I have however seen and know of plenty of sinkings related to traditional boxes. They are also highly prone to installer or user error. Hoses on traditional boxes also need to be changed so a traditional gland is not immune from hose replacement maintenance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Despite misleading marketing messages by packing manufacturers traditional boxes should not be run "dry" or "dripless" but they can be "drips-less" than older plant based packings.. They, all PSS type or traditional glands, need to pass some water (traditional) or vent air (PSS type), or they can overheat. Trapped air or not passing of water can also lead to stagnation and corrosion of the shafting up inside the log.
> 
> This is what stagnant water on a traditional box set to not drip can do:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some boats are more prone to trapped air in the log hence PYI's move to all vented/plumbed seals even on slow moving craft. "Burping" on some boats was more than just at launch time so vents make a lot of sense on all sailboats.
> 
> Newer packings can be pretty darn _drips-less_ but should not be 100% _dripless._ it can be so minimal that engine warmth evaporates any drips before it accumulates.
> 
> Unfortunately I can't count the number of times an owner or yard mechanic has said to me _"Yeah when I adjusted the PSS."_ and I ask _"Did you replace the set screws?"_ and am treated with a blank stare? Scary stuff!
> 
> If a failure were to occur with a slipping rotor, in this scenario, it is installer error not the fault of PYI or the PSS seal.
> 
> I also very often see the vent holes plugged with brass or ss plugs. The vents should always be plumbed (power) or vented/used on sailboats. Metallic plugs should never, ever be used in the carbon rotor. There is a reason PYI uses a nylon hose barb and that is because the carbon is the most noble element in the galvanic scale and the differing expansion contraction characteristics between brass or SS and the carbon...
> 
> PYI says this in the instructions but many people choose not to read or heed them:
> 
> *"Do not tighten or replace the installed nylon hose barb fitting with a metallic fitting (bronze or stainless steel). Metal hose barbs will damage the carbon and destroy the PSS."*
> 
> Again, this type of failure, overheating of the seal, dissimilar metals corrosion or a split carbon would clearly get blamed on the PSS seal. Sadly on the "net" PSS takes the hit not the dolt who caused the failure by not following the installation instructions. These are examples of installer error not a failure on the part of the seal. I see the metallic plugs and set screw errors frequently.


Another outstanding post. I was curious your thoughts. Thanks.

B


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## Maine Sail

Cruisingdad said:


> Another outstanding post. I was curious your thoughts. Thanks.
> 
> B


I got your PM but we were off cruising with limited "fast" data....


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## jppp

I was so excited to hear from the broker(friend of the owner) when we bought the boat last Spring, "and hey, you've got a dripless shaft seal to go along with that fancy feathering prop". Now I'm not so sure.. I guess I gotta add it to fall maintenance.


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## tdw

Well I know what i am going to be checking out this weekend . Thanks Maine.


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## casey1999

Maine Sail said:


> I would suspect Catalina moved back to a traditional stuffing box because they are about 1/3 the cost of a PSS (based on wholesale pricing and Catalina pays less than I do I am sure).
> 
> The installation is also less costly for Catalina with a traditional gland not having to run an extra hose for the vent.
> 
> The PSS seals are extremely reliable and are used by the USCG and the world best builders. I know of some in commercial used with over 10k hours on them.
> 
> All the failures of PSS I have read of have been due to installer or owner error. The stainless rotors do not slip if properly & competently installed. I have seen 20 year old PSS seals still working perfectly. I have one customer who still has the old cloth covered bellows, this despite my very strong suggestion he replace it. I don't think PYI has made those bellows for about 15-20 years.
> 
> The term "properly installed" means the grub/set screws that contact the shaft are only ever tightened once. ONCE!!!! _Tightened_ and _used_ are two different things. They also need to be tightened to the proper torque with the proper Allen key.. PSS ships the proper Allen key but I still see grub screws molested by using the wrong Allen key.
> 
> Often times installers mess up the adjustment or compression of the bellows. Sadly they think nothing of loosening the set screws and simply moving or re-adjusting the rotor and snugging up the set screws. PLEASE DO NOT DO THIS! If this is done it is no longer a _proper_ installation and you have just increased the risk of the rotor slipping and a leak. If you need to adjust the bellows you need to use brand new set screws.
> 
> These set screws can only be tightened once because the shaft, usually Aqualoy or Nitronic, is harder than the grub screw. These _volcano head_ screws rely on the initial "cut" or bite into the shaft for the grip. Loosen the screw and move the rotor, even 1/8" and you need new screws.
> 
> PYI Says this right in the installation instructions:
> 
> *"Do not re-use the supplied cupped pointed sets screws."*
> 
> What is a one time use? If you tighten the set screws onto the shaft even once, that is your use. For example if you are installing the PSS and adjust it, tighten the set screw then realize the adjustment was wrong you now need to use new set screws. This is installer error numero-uno with PSS seals....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For years I have installed PSS seals with "clamp collars" from McMaster Carr as added insurance. Hose clamps and zincs are really not the ideal solution but a clamp collar is designed for this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a better view:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PYI saw me using these and they now offer their own "clamp collars". IMHO all PSS seals should come standard with a clamp collar, and a bag of extra set screws, but I digress. It would virtually eliminate installer error and slipping rotors and help eliminate the _"I had a PSS failure"_ threads, which were really "installer error".
> 
> Both standard glands and PSS seals are reliable. I have however seen and know of plenty of sinkings related to traditional boxes. They are also highly prone to installer or user error. Hoses on traditional boxes also need to be changed so a traditional gland is not immune from hose replacement maintenance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Despite misleading marketing messages by packing manufacturers traditional boxes should not be run "dry" or "dripless" but they can be "drips-less" than older plant based packings.. They, all PSS type or traditional glands, need to pass some water (traditional) or vent air (PSS type), or they can overheat. Trapped air or not passing of water can also lead to stagnation and corrosion of the shafting up inside the log.
> 
> This is what stagnant water on a traditional box set to not drip can do:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some boats are more prone to trapped air in the log hence PYI's move to all vented/plumbed seals even on slow moving craft. "Burping" on some boats was more than just at launch time so vents make a lot of sense on all sailboats.
> 
> Newer packings can be pretty darn _drips-less_ but should not be 100% _dripless._ it can be so minimal that engine warmth evaporates any drips before it accumulates.
> 
> Unfortunately I can't count the number of times an owner or yard mechanic has said to me _"Yeah when I adjusted the PSS."_ and I ask _"Did you replace the set screws?"_ and am treated with a blank stare? Scary stuff!
> 
> If a failure were to occur with a slipping rotor, in this scenario, it is installer error not the fault of PYI or the PSS seal.
> 
> I also very often see the vent holes plugged with brass or ss plugs. The vents should always be plumbed (power) or vented/used on sailboats. Metallic plugs should never, ever be used in the carbon rotor. There is a reason PYI uses a nylon hose barb and that is because the carbon is the most noble element in the galvanic scale and the differing expansion contraction characteristics between brass or SS and the carbon...
> 
> PYI says this in the instructions but many people choose not to read or heed them:
> 
> *"Do not tighten or replace the installed nylon hose barb fitting with a metallic fitting (bronze or stainless steel). Metal hose barbs will damage the carbon and destroy the PSS."*
> 
> Again, this type of failure, overheating of the seal, dissimilar metals corrosion or a split carbon would clearly get blamed on the PSS seal. Sadly on the "net" PSS takes the hit not the dolt who caused the failure by not following the installation instructions. These are examples of installer error not a failure on the part of the seal. I see the metallic plugs and set screw errors frequently.


MainSail:
Why do you have those perforated hose clamps on the PSS bellows? My understanding is they are not recommended due to accelerated corrosion factors.


----------



## Brent Swain

I never felt safe leaving my boat with the PSS type sea, as anything falling on it would quickly sink the boat. The most a stuffing box will do is drip slowly. So I went back to my stuffing box and regained much peace of mind.


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## Rockter

I use the orthodox stuffing box on my Polaris 36, and have for the last 20 years. 
Last time I changed the packing on it was 15 years ago.
It is reliable, orthodox and cheap to maintain. It really has never given trouble. It drips a bit, but I live with that, as other owners have since the beginning of steam power.


----------



## casey1999

Maine Sail said:


> I would suspect Catalina moved back to a traditional stuffing box because they are about 1/3 the cost of a PSS (based on wholesale pricing and Catalina pays less than I do I am sure).
> 
> The installation is also less costly for Catalina with a traditional gland not having to run an extra hose for the vent.
> 
> The PSS seals are extremely reliable and are used by the USCG and the world best builders. I know of some in commercial used with over 10k hours on them.
> 
> All the failures of PSS I have read of have been due to installer or owner error. The stainless rotors do not slip if properly & competently installed. I have seen 20 year old PSS seals still working perfectly. I have one customer who still has the old cloth covered bellows, this despite my very strong suggestion he replace it. I don't think PYI has made those bellows for about 15-20 years.
> 
> The term "properly installed" means the grub/set screws that contact the shaft are only ever tightened once. ONCE!!!! _Tightened_ and _used_ are two different things. They also need to be tightened to the proper torque with the proper Allen key.. PSS ships the proper Allen key but I still see grub screws molested by using the wrong Allen key.
> 
> Often times installers mess up the adjustment or compression of the bellows. Sadly they think nothing of loosening the set screws and simply moving or re-adjusting the rotor and snugging up the set screws. PLEASE DO NOT DO THIS! If this is done it is no longer a _proper_ installation and you have just increased the risk of the rotor slipping and a leak. If you need to adjust the bellows you need to use brand new set screws.
> 
> These set screws can only be tightened once because the shaft, usually Aqualoy or Nitronic, is harder than the grub screw. These _volcano head_ screws rely on the initial "cut" or bite into the shaft for the grip. Loosen the screw and move the rotor, even 1/8" and you need new screws.
> 
> PYI Says this right in the installation instructions:
> 
> *"Do not re-use the supplied cupped pointed sets screws."*
> 
> What is a one time use? If you tighten the set screws onto the shaft even once, that is your use. For example if you are installing the PSS and adjust it, tighten the set screw then realize the adjustment was wrong you now need to use new set screws. This is installer error numero-uno with PSS seals....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For years I have installed PSS seals with "clamp collars" from McMaster Carr as added insurance. Hose clamps and zincs are really not the ideal solution but a clamp collar is designed for this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a better view:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PYI saw me using these and they now offer their own "clamp collars". IMHO all PSS seals should come standard with a clamp collar, and a bag of extra set screws, but I digress. It would virtually eliminate installer error and slipping rotors and help eliminate the _"I had a PSS failure"_ threads, which were really "installer error".
> 
> Both standard glands and PSS seals are reliable. I have however seen and know of plenty of sinkings related to traditional boxes. They are also highly prone to installer or user error. Hoses on traditional boxes also need to be changed so a traditional gland is not immune from hose replacement maintenance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Despite misleading marketing messages by packing manufacturers traditional boxes should not be run "dry" or "dripless" but they can be "drips-less" than older plant based packings.. They, all PSS type or traditional glands, need to pass some water (traditional) or vent air (PSS type), or they can overheat. Trapped air or not passing of water can also lead to stagnation and corrosion of the shafting up inside the log.
> 
> This is what stagnant water on a traditional box set to not drip can do:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some boats are more prone to trapped air in the log hence PYI's move to all vented/plumbed seals even on slow moving craft. "Burping" on some boats was more than just at launch time so vents make a lot of sense on all sailboats.
> 
> Newer packings can be pretty darn _drips-less_ but should not be 100% _dripless._ it can be so minimal that engine warmth evaporates any drips before it accumulates.
> 
> Unfortunately I can't count the number of times an owner or yard mechanic has said to me _"Yeah when I adjusted the PSS."_ and I ask _"Did you replace the set screws?"_ and am treated with a blank stare? Scary stuff!
> 
> If a failure were to occur with a slipping rotor, in this scenario, it is installer error not the fault of PYI or the PSS seal.
> 
> I also very often see the vent holes plugged with brass or ss plugs. The vents should always be plumbed (power) or vented/used on sailboats. Metallic plugs should never, ever be used in the carbon rotor. There is a reason PYI uses a nylon hose barb and that is because the carbon is the most noble element in the galvanic scale and the differing expansion contraction characteristics between brass or SS and the carbon...
> 
> PYI says this in the instructions but many people choose not to read or heed them:
> 
> *"Do not tighten or replace the installed nylon hose barb fitting with a metallic fitting (bronze or stainless steel). Metal hose barbs will damage the carbon and destroy the PSS."*
> 
> Again, this type of failure, overheating of the seal, dissimilar metals corrosion or a split carbon would clearly get blamed on the PSS seal. Sadly on the "net" PSS takes the hit not the dolt who caused the failure by not following the installation instructions. These are examples of installer error not a failure on the part of the seal. I see the metallic plugs and set screw errors frequently.


Main Sail,
I think your post offers some good insight of what is wrong with PSS. It is just to sensative. We are sailors, not astronauts that are highly educated and trained to go on Apllo missions to the moon.

I want equipment on my boat that can be abused, not installed perfectly, can be overused beyond is "designed" capability, can be beat on and ask for more.

I worked on subs and what impressed me is how basic and strong these things are made. They are made for an 18 year old out of high school with a little training to be able to make work.

PSS is just to sensative for the average sailor. And I want no little plastic fittings on my boat holding back the sea.


----------



## Maine Sail

casey1999 said:


> MainSail:
> Why do you have those perforated hose clamps on the PSS bellows? My understanding is they are not recommended due to accelerated corrosion factors.


A good perf hose clamp will be all 316SS just like an AWAB. Sadly many are cheap automotive or hardware grade and it gives the rest of the good ones a bad name. Unfortunately the AWAB's were a little too wide for the older style PSS bellows so I had to stick with perf clamps.. The new style bellows is slightly wider allowing the use of AWAB's, which I prefer to perforated clamps.

The ones that really suffer from corrosion in bilges are the T-band clamps. They can fail at the spot welds due to corrosion so if using T-Bands always keep the "T" up and out of the water....


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## biohead

I installed a "Lasdrop" dripless systel about two years ago and haven't had an issue yet....nor a drop od water!

The manufacturer reccomended installing a spare seal on the shaft in the event the operational seal fails. This would eliminate the need for a haul out and is a good safety measure for a failure while underway.


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## captbillc

my boat came with a stuffing box. a couple of years ago i pulled out the flax packing and put in the gore type packing . it runs cool, drips very little when running & not at all when the shaft is not turning. it is not supposed to wear the shaft either so i am well satisfied with it.


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## Jgbrown

I've installed several lasdrops and like them. They use heavy hose, exactly like a traditional stuffing box, and no set screws, they clamp like the collar in Maine sails photo instead. The carbon is not directly threaded, the housing for it is instead allowing metal fittings to be used.

However I think the replacement seal on the shaft is a bit funny. More useful in that you have the spare available, but considering how hard it is to swap the seal out while held vertically on a nicely lit dry work bench... 
Not bloody likely especially on the first try. You'd need to have excellent bilge pumps, all the tools including a hacksaw and heavy duty cutters etc, and a lot of luck.




Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk


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## MooGroc

When I launched my boat last spring, I noticed water coming in. Turns out it was coming in through a crack/rip in my 3 year old PSS. Luckily the boat was still in the slings so I had them pull it out and
put it back on stands.

When I removed the bellows there were two problems - the bellows were too big and there was a tear. I checked the invoice from the yard in Annapolis that did the work and it shows the correct size PSS. Maybe they put the right one on the invoice and installed a different one. I have another theory though. I had a problem with a fuel tank vent hose. When the boat was pulled and topped off the previous fall, some diesel leaked out and the bellows spent the entire winter mostly submerged in diesel fuel. Perhaps this caused swelling which made the bellows appear to be the wrong size.

The tear may have been caused by a grounding wire that was probably cut when the stuffing box was replaced by the PSS. The sharp edge was lying near the bellows and maybe cut it due to vibration.

I wound up replacing it with a new PSS for many of the reasons Maine Sail mentions. I believe the failure was caused by the diesel spill and the sharp cut ground wire.

It sure was a ***** of a job to do - especially removing the old flange.

-my36
Morris Justine


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## ThirdCoastSailor

I have the dripless seal. The original was leaking when I bought the boat and it didn't have the air bleed hose. I replaced it and not had any trouble with it since. It was replaced about two years ago. I plan to replace the bellows 7 to 10 years out per the manufacturer's recommendations. Seems a small price to pay for 10 years of a dry bilge.

ThirdCoastSailor
s/v Memento Vivere
Catalina 380


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## zeehag

had this formosa i own had a dripless seal, my formosa would have sunk many years ago. my old style stuffing box is awesome to modify when it is old and in bad shape and will still keep much of the ingress of water to a minimum.

btw, i am in zihuatenejo , guerrero , mexico at present--was a great sail and is a gorgeous place.


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## MarkofSeaLife

I love my PSS Dripless 

It's cool are groovy!


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## zeehag

mark--one of the solutions for mine is to modify into a kind of dripless seal situation, only a modification of my present system--could well be similar to yours--
mark--please advise me as to what is the lip seal system some bendy toys are using?? sounds like a possible solution to mine....


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## MedSailor

zeehag said:


> mark--one of the solutions for mine is to modify into a kind of dripless seal situation, only a modification of my present system--could well be similar to yours--
> mark--please advise me as to what is the lip seal system some bendy toys are using?? sounds like a possible solution to mine....


I also own a Formosa 41 with a leaky stuffing box (though I suspect mine is an engine alignment issue).

What's this "kind if dripless modification that you speak of???"

MedSailor


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## MarkofSeaLife

zeehag said:


> mark--please advise me as to what is the lip seal system some bendy toys are using?? sounds like a possible solution to mine....


Be nice and call then their right name and I'll give you a cuddle.

Mine has a PSS. I thought all did.


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## Faster

zeehag said:


> --please advise me as to what is the lip seal system some bendy toys are using?? sounds like a possible solution to mine....


This is what I've seen on a couple of volvo-powered Beneteaus:


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## tdw

Faster said:


> This is what I've seen on a couple of volvo-powered Beneteaus:


That's what we had on Raven .... fabulous device.


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## MedSailor

Faster said:


> This is what I've seen on a couple of volvo-powered Beneteaus:


Tell me more about this awesome looking, device. Does it fit on a regular stuffing box, and if so where? How is it used?

I'm old school you see and don't have much experience using rubbers on my sha... um... nevermind. 

Seriously though, how is this thing used and does it augment a regular shaft seal?

MedSailor


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## windward54

I have this shaft seal on my Jeanneau. It's a Volvo Shaft Seal, and it is dripless as well. There is annual maintenance (a little grease) and you have to burp it when the boat is placed back in the water, but other than that, it works well. The seal also has to be replaced about every 6-8 years.

Although it is a Volvo part, Jeanneau installed it on my boat, and I have a Yanmar engine.


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## zeehag

mark--beneteaus are good--seems those with them ar ehappy--same with formosas--woul dlove a cuddle from ye, hombre guapo--
as for formosas with leaky stuffing boxes--yipes--seems to be a common problem with our boats---our modification was to cut a fender into strip of rubber, wrap the failing fitting with this mod and hose clamp it to the stuffing box. yes, it still pours water into boat, so isnt the needed fix....still looking. i have to pump out the bilge 2 times daily, until the boat has sat for 4 days, then only once daily... mine is also due to some engine mount problems, as well as good old "old age"....--seems mine are too soft, and require some manner of stiffening. that will be attended to in feb, first repair on my list. am searching for the most compatible haul yard in my way as i sail on to panama....huatulco seems like a decent idea , or acapulco, altho' i feel acapulco may just be a tad pricey....


----------



## billyruffn

casey1999 said:


> Main Sail,
> I think your post offers some good insight of what is wrong with PSS. It is just to sensative. We are sailors, not astronauts that are highly educated and trained to go on Apllo missions to the moon.
> 
> I want equipment on my boat that can be abused, not installed perfectly, can be overused beyond is "designed" capability, can be beat on and ask for more.
> 
> I worked on subs and what impressed me is how basic and strong these things are made. They are made for an 18 year old out of high school with a little training to be able to make work.
> 
> PSS is just to sensative for the average sailor. And I want no little plastic fittings on my boat holding back the sea.


There's nothing "wrong" with the PSS shaft seal -- you just have to know how to use it --- like so many other things on a sailboat. I've had the PSS shaft seal on BR for over 10 years with no problems.

Sailors, like astronauts, have to do things the right way. The use of the set screws is one the things you have to get right if you use the PSS SS. It's not rocket science -- you just have to read and follow the directions.

I appreciate your desire for robust gear, but that said: if you want to abuse the gear on your boat, go ahead. If you want to install it incorrectly, that's your call. If you want to use it to failure, be my guest. But I wouldn't be surprised if you were one day the victim of multiple, minor but progressive component failures that leads ultimately to catastrophy.

MaineSailor knows of what he speaks. The only thing I didn't see in his excellent post was the mention of use of Loctite thread locker on the second (outer) of the two lock screws. You shouldn't use it on the inner set screw because some of it might leak between the shaft and the collar making the collar very difficult to remove. That's another common mistake made by the inexperienced 18 year olds that work in boat yards (you know, the ones that flunked out of sub school). But, you'd know that, if you read the directions.

PS -- I spent a few years in the Navy, and IMO the 18 year old on a Navy submarine is a highly trained individual regardless of his rate. 

PPS -- one of the things that I do to alert me to any movement of either the rubber compression collar and the SS ring-around-the-shaft is to make marks with a black magic market on the stern tube where the rubber compression collar meets the stern tube and where the SS ring-around-the-shaft meets the shaft. If either of these marks disappears then I know something is moving and needs attention. I have a look at these marks every day during my pre-start checks of the engine space.


----------



## miatapaul

zeehag said:


> mark--beneteaus are good--seems those with them ar ehappy--same with formosas--woul dlove a cuddle from ye, hombre guapo--
> as for formosas with leaky stuffing boxes--yipes--seems to be a common problem with our boats---our modification was to cut a fender into strip of rubber, wrap the failing fitting with this mod and hose clamp it to the stuffing box. yes, it still pours water into boat, so isnt the needed fix....still looking. i have to pump out the bilge 2 times daily, until the boat has sat for 4 days, then only once daily... mine is also due to some engine mount problems, as well as good old "old age"....--seems mine are too soft, and require some manner of stiffening. that will be attended to in feb, first repair on my list. am searching for the most compatible haul yard in my way as i sail on to panama....huatulco seems like a decent idea , or acapulco, altho' i feel acapulco may just be a tad pricey....


sounds like a few of us.... :laugher


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## SantaAna12

2nd the comment on Submariners. I remember one of them lining me out on the process of becoming an officer on a nuclear sub.....the knowledge of all major systems on these ships.....we are in good hands.


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## zeehag

miata paul--i wish there were a pill for my mounts..LOL


----------



## miatapaul

zeehag said:


> miata paul--i wish there were a pill for my mounts..LOL


Well you are down in Mexico, so at least you don't need a prescription! :laugher


----------



## zeehag

miatapaul said:


> Well you are down in Mexico, so at least you don't need a prescription! :laugher


true dat--and viagra/cialis etc are much less pricey than epoxy!!!!


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## T37Chef

Maine Sail...I tried "Like" your post several times but couldn't  We have had a PSS Dripless for several years with no problems.

Some keys points MS and others have outlines for a proper install: 
- use a shaft collar either from PSS or McMaster Carr
- only use your set screws once
- only use locktite on the second set screw, not the first
- follow the maintenance intervals
- read the install directions well


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## dorymate1

For all of you stuck on the traditional packing box. A couple of notes. When packing is continually tightened over time the shaft will be grooved at this point. I have witnessed broken shafts that feel out of boats because of this. It does cause a little more than a drip I promise. Also have seen many log hoses replaced with exhaust/ water hose and rusty clamps that just fall off. No matter witch systems you use always check your shaft log before leaving your vessel will go a long way to piece of mind. When ever you leave a boat always check bilges and listen for running water Then and only then can you continue to lose sleep over her for every reason.


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## eherlihy

Regarding the lock-tite on the PSS set screws; 
I installed my first PSS shaft seal last spring. ALL (6 - 2 spares) of the set screws had thread locking applied to the threads when I opened the box.


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## Melrna

I too have had that same discussion with Mr Gerry Douglas of Catalina and the sales manager of PSS about their dripless system. What Mr Douglas relayed to me was failure of the bellows due to overheating when there is no water in the shaft tube to cool down the bellow while the shaft is turning. This lack of water can come from a launch of vessel, air bubble getting into the shaft and creating a air lock or obstruction getting into the shaft log and not letting in water (think crap pot lines, fishing line, etc.). The sales manager confirmed this problem with me and demonstrated it at the Ft Lauderdale boat show last year. 
There is a big difference between power boat vs sailboat applications due the difference in RPM's the shaft turns. The PSS dripless system likes higher RPM's vs slow RPM's of sailboat shafts. Furthermore, how some folks think that slow RPM's (1800-2200) on their diesels are good for it (another subject another thread) hence even slower rotation on the shaft. This is where the vent tube comes into play. Careful installation is required here as well as the set screws. If the tube blocks up in any way the bellows can overheat as well. 
BTW I have the PSS system on my current boat. It has worked flawless in over 4 years. What I don't like and it makes me nervous is when I move the shaft out of alignment by hand or foot I get water out. I was told this is normal. Not so sure about that.


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## casey1999

billyruffn said:


> There's nothing "wrong" with the PSS shaft seal -- you just have to know how to use it --- like so many other things on a sailboat. I've had the PSS shaft seal on BR for over 10 years with no problems.
> 
> Sailors, like astronauts, have to do things the right way. The use of the set screws is one the things you have to get right if you use the PSS SS. It's not rocket science -- you just have to read and follow the directions.
> 
> I appreciate your desire for robust gear, but that said: if you want to abuse the gear on your boat, go ahead. If you want to install it incorrectly, that's your call. If you want to use it to failure, be my guest. But I wouldn't be surprised if you were one day the victim of multiple, minor but progressive component failures that leads ultimately to catastrophy.
> 
> MaineSailor knows of what he speaks. The only thing I didn't see in his excellent post was the mention of use of Loctite thread locker on the second (outer) of the two lock screws. You shouldn't use it on the inner set screw because some of it might leak between the shaft and the collar making the collar very difficult to remove. That's another common mistake made by the inexperienced 18 year olds that work in boat yards (you know, the ones that flunked out of sub school). But, you'd know that, if you read the directions.
> 
> PS -- I spent a few years in the Navy, and IMO the 18 year old on a Navy submarine is a highly trained individual regardless of his rate.
> 
> PPS -- one of the things that I do to alert me to any movement of either the rubber compression collar and the SS ring-around-the-shaft is to make marks with a black magic market on the stern tube where the rubber compression collar meets the stern tube and where the SS ring-around-the-shaft meets the shaft. If either of these marks disappears then I know something is moving and needs attention. I have a look at these marks every day during my pre-start checks of the engine space.


Sorry you do not recognize a little sarcasm, little hard to convey maybe on the internet. My point is that no matter how smart and skilled an 18 year old is, there are certain things only experience will teach you. Don't worry about me abusing my equipment, I don't, but I design and build so if I do, it will keep going. Never had a failure yet, but then again I keep an eye on things, and being a licensed mechanical engineer with many years of hands on experience in designing, building, testing and maintaining anything from a hydro-electric plants to a submarines help. The navy would never have a little plastic hose fitting holding back the sea.


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## davico

Hi Maine Sail

Read educational and timely for me article,couple of days ago motoring to boatyard for a survey haulout noticed a real strong leak/FLOW from dripless stuffing box,have no other info as brand or age.
It was perfectly dry at the slip but started this flow as soon as we left,might have been 30' on our way it stopped.
On the way back did not leak any more and we left the boat at the slip.
Obviously we need to address this issue by repair or replacement.
My question is 
in a case like this what is if any emergency solution?
Like if it was on my older boat with a traditional stuffing box,will either tighten the box nut or if no more thread available I have just removed all the old residual stuffing material and repack it,while under sail with the gear engaged,yes, there was several minutes quite unsettling but I knew once I got the new stuffing in will be OK.

Is there any thing one could do in a case like described to stop or control the leak?? been away from help hauling out is not an option.
Thank you 
David


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## Minnewaska

davico said:


> Hi Maine Sail
> 
> Read educational and timely for me article,couple of days ago motoring to boatyard for a survey haulout noticed a real strong leak/FLOW from dripless stuffing box,have no other info as brand or age.
> It was perfectly dry at the slip but started this flow as soon as we left,might have been 30' on our way it stopped.


It sounds like the mating surface between the seal and the shaft was either contaminated or friction swelled something and it sealed better. It's possible the surface was slightly rusted and the rotation cleaned it up, although, that's not good for the shaft, if that's where this model mates. This is one reason, I prefer the design that attaches a new ring to the shaft to be the mating/wear surface (eg PSS). This way it's not your shaft wearing, rather a replaceable ring.



> My question is in a case like this what is if any emergency solution?


It depends on where the leak was coming from. If the rubber tubing was cracked, I would wrap it in rescue tape to get back to shore. For models with rings or donuts added as the wear surface, it's possible for them to slip and can be tightened back down, while underway. Most of those also have option braces to keep them from slipping, which I would insist on having. Other failures may be the hose clamps, which are easily remedied.

I've never heard of a stuffing box having such a catastrophic failure that a descent bilge pump couldn't keep up. I would be sure the engine was running to keep the batteries topped and then get somewhere to deal with it.


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## davico

Minnewaska

thank you very much for your helpful and comprehensive post.
Unfortunately do not have readily access to check for brand/type or age of install as the boat is still on the post survey status and to look at need to arrange having the broker with me to gain access as well as a one hour drive.
Hope this weekend can arrange for the logistics.
The model and brand may shed some light on your observations as to what may be happening.
Thank you very much.
As the bilge pump,is a CS30 bilge very shallow with a small little pump, do not believe will be able to cope with a major inflow of water,ideally will need some kind of temporary solution until reaching a haulout facility, solutions you have already mentioned,let's hope is some thing "simple " (have to see a simple solution to any thing to do with boating)
OK,looks need to get busy and get some answers before even thinking about moving this boat.
Thank you again
Will post new updates


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## hpeer

When we bought our big boat it had a dripless seal that dripped like crazy. I don't know the mfg but was told it was not PSS. It did have a wear piece bolted to the shaft, the wear piece looked to be ceramic or something. In any case this wear disk had cracked and was allowing water to enter. 

I tolerated it for a while but when I did a major haul I replaced the seal with a traditional stuffing box with the new fangled packing. I have to adjust once in a blue moon but it admits very little water. I carry some spare stuffing and have relatively easy access for adjustment. 

FWIW the packing gland on the small boat does not have any hose. The big boat does. 

A couple of years ago I was doing a lot of motoring going up the Hudson and down the St Lawrence. At one point I heard a very odd loud sound. The small boats packing gland had come apart, I just screwed it back together and went on, about 15 minutes problem. I was suprised how little water came in. I’ve no clue why it decided to vibrate loose but it did. Never before or since.


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## davico

hpeer
thanks
when I cruised and motor for hours always have that experience of self reliance and never panic,however this boat am considering has a dripless system,I am not adverse to it,in fact every time I was fiddling with the stuffing box wished had one of the" new "systems,will see what I can find this weekend.
Hard to accept the dripless concept when the boat considering to buy is already showing problems.
But am open minded about it.
thanks for sharing
David


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## hpeer

For what it’s worth a good big bilge pump and hose is a good investment anytime. Two years ago we were anchored when the boat ahead of us developed a leak in the galley while the owner was ashore. Someone noticed the boat down by her lines and mobilized a couple of others to bring pumps to stabilize her while someone else found the leak and put a temp plug in. 

The point is good bilge pump can save you time while looking for a leak. I carry a secondary pump on the boat that can be hooked to the batteries to provide additional pumping, hose out the port hole. Fairly cheap insurance. Also lots of toilet bowl wax.


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## JiffyLube

There was a PSS shaft seal on into our boat when we bought it, but we didn't know the age of it. When we hauled out several years ago we put in an updated version of the PSS shaft seal, and that has been working good too. Proper compression is the important thing with the bellow, otherwise the dripless will be a dripper. 

I knew a man many years ago that sailed through the south pacific after doing the Baja Ha Ha, and he made a stop in Fiji to rest up and have some work done on his boat. One of the things he had done was repacking the stuffing box, which he later regretted not doing it himself. He was about 90 miles of New Caledonia headed to Australia, when he noticed some noise down below in the salon. When he looked below he saw his floor boards moving around, and heard the sound of swashing water. He had to find out where the water was coming in from, and after a short time feeling his way around the flooded bilge, he discovered the water was gushing in at the heavy duty hose used to hold the packing gland. He blamed the problem on the workers doing the work back in Fiji, and thinks they didn't clamp the hose good or not at all. Neither of his bilge pumps could keep up with the water, so while he was slowly sinking he put out a Mayday. He was picked up just before his boat went under, and that was the end of his adventures. Something as simple as hose clamps can sink a boat, even if the hose is still there.


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## outbound

When boat shopping looked at a Puffin. Owner was a prior ships captain. Shaft had two grease fittings. One at exit and one at internal end. No stuffing box. No PSS. Maintenance a couple strokes on a grease gun time to time. Once a year replace all the grease. Can be done with boat in the water. Service life as long as the boat. Dry boat. Use as many bearings as you want. KISS. Proven as that’s what’s in ships.
Now investigating ultralight, narrow, aluminum motor/motor sailor boats. Find similar devices ( a simple greased log) sometimes used.
Don’t understand why not in common use? Grease can be captured before entering the water.


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## Don L

The boot on my PSS seal once cracked in the middle of the season. It was a good thing I decided to stay on the boat a night during the middle of the week to find it. I replaced the PSS with a Next Gen seal that didn't have a bellows, it now leaks from the seal.

Next haulout I'm going to a packing box!!


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## outbound

Don might want to think about another yard. My understanding is the overwhelming %age of trouble with dripless devices of any brand is due to installation issues. Even a traditional stuffing box needs to be done just right. I started to replace a stuffing box on a little cape dory. No issues with leak but was sufficiently corroded it scared me. Fortunately got a pro involved when due to corrosion I was having kittens taking it apart. It was a learning experience.


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## Minnewaska

Don0190 said:


> The boot on my PSS seal once cracked in the middle of the season. ......


I vaguely recall you mentioning this before, but the seal was either an unknown age, from a PO, or known to be past it's service life (5 or 6 years). True?

The PSS, properly installed with a safety retainer, and properly serviced, should have a 99.99% reliability rate. They are, however, more expensive than a traditional stuffing box, if cost is a deciding factor.


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## Don L

I’m my own yard because I’ve yet to find a yard monkey worth spending $90/hr on. My feeling after 2 different boats if the damn things are going to drip and fail I prefer if to be be as fail safe as possible. I’m not anal about there being some water in the bilge, that’s what it’s for.


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