# Mast height/Draft - What limitations will I have?



## labatt (Jul 31, 2006)

Hello all -

Just looked at a Hallberg-Rassy 53 and it's a pretty nice boat. However - the draft is 7'6" and the mast height is 73'6". Right now our plan is to head out of Lake Ontario, go up the St. Lawrence, turn right around Nova Scotia and head down the east coast of the US. Eventually, we'll probably be looking to go to the BVI's and other areas, and then perhaps do a trip through the Panama Canal and onwards around the world.

I'd love to hear people's thoughts about the affect the mast height and draft might have on this trip? I know we'll have many intracoastal issues, but what parts will we still be able to see?

Thanks! Chris


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

You won't be able to see much on the ICW and you will always need to go offshore around Hatteras which is the main reason I would not consider a boat with 65+ when we were looking. You WILL be able to enter all of the *larger* inlets and get to a dock...the 7'6 draft is a killer on the ICW and rules out large areas of the Bahamas as well. Not a problem at all south of the Turks and Caicos and through the Caribe. I don't think that draft is a problem heading on a path through the canal but might be restrictive in the SanBlas and IS restrictive in the Rio Dulce. Can't speak to the south pacific or further on.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

No WAY! I will admit that Cam has a lot more experience down the east coast than I do... but that kind of draft and mast height will absolutely rule you out of MANY places. You can basically kiss off almost all of SW Florida, much or all of the keys, much of the Texas Coast and LA coast, Bahamas, and come to think if it, I am tying to rack my brain where I have been taht you will get around with that draft except Caliafornia. THat is the only place I have been you won't be sitting on the hard all the time. Now that may not be a big deal until you have a storm coming and no place to duck. 

No way. Not for me. If you need that kind of room and want to go around the world, buy a Nordhavn. Not much more money if any.

- CD


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## retclt (Nov 7, 2006)

That boat would not be fun here in Texas, interesting but not fun. Most of the Gulf Coast would be a problem. The ICW is supposed to be deep enough but . . . you know how it is. Getting to places off the ICW like the SYC in New Orleans or almost any public marina just a few feet off the ditch would be a high tide thing, if then. It doesn't sound like you're heading this way but I would imagine the East Coast wouldn’t be a lot deeper. I haven't been on the East Coast ICW but I can tell you that the Gulf Coast has a lot of fixed bridges at 65 feet so that boat is a double negative in these parts. I’ve seen them but it’s very very rare.

Be careful in and around Nassau Bahamas. I’ve been stuck in the sand there with much less draft.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

retclt said:


> That boat would not be fun here in Texas, interesting but not fun. Most of the Gulf Coast would be a problem. The ICW is supposed to be deep enough but . . . you know how it is. Getting to places off the ICW like the SYC in New Orleans or almost any public marina just a few feet off the ditch would be a high tide thing, if then. It doesn't sound like you're heading this way but I would imagine the East Coast wouldn't be a lot deeper. I haven't been on the East Coast ICW but I can tell you that the Gulf Coast has a lot of fixed bridges at 65 feet so that boat is a double negative in these parts. I've seen them but it's very very rare.
> 
> Be careful in and around Nassau Bahamas. I've been stuck in the sand there with much less draft.


I have hit bottom INSDE the ICW with 5'4 draft. No joking. I ran aground all day long with 5'4. I cannot imagine 7. Truth is that he would not even get close to the ICW!! He would run aground beforehand.

Nah, no thanks. Believe me... take my word... you don't want that. Well, I will take all that back: THIS IS JUST MY OPINION... YOU DON'T WANT THAT.

- CD


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## labatt (Jul 31, 2006)

So let's change things up a bit... let's say we're not as tied to going down the ICW or the Bahamas... would that change your opinion some? Or you just feel that a deep draft boat would not be worth it for all the areas you'd miss?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Ive run aground a few times on the ICW around Charleston SC with a 6' draft.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

labatt said:


> So let's change things up a bit... let's say we're not as tied to going down the ICW or the Bahamas... would that change your opinion some? Or you just feel that a deep draft boat would not be worth it for all the areas you'd miss?


I am giving you my opinion. THere are many places you can go with a deep draft boat. Portugal is one (smile). However, you would miss a lot. If you are that stuck on that much space, consider a different boat or get a trawler. I was not being sarcastic. These are of course just my opinions... or should I say the opinion's of someone that has spent many hours on many unchartered sand bars... and that is with 5'4.

- CD


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

labatt said:


> So let's change things up a bit... let's say we're not as tied to going down the ICW or the Bahamas... would that change your opinion some? Or you just feel that a deep draft boat would not be worth it for all the areas you'd miss?


Take a peek:

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...rency=USD&access=Public&listing_id=33464&url=

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...rrency=USD&access=Public&listing_id=1797&url=

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...rency=USD&access=Public&listing_id=32744&url=


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

As a world cruiser, in open water, without bridges, you'd be fine. Gulf Coast, Florida, and Southeast US, you can pretty much write off, as in all those areas I've had times when I was glued to my depth sounder, and I only draw 4'6". And I don't even want to think about raising the main on that boat if the electric winch fails (and I can't imagine it doesn't have one). Or for that matter, trimming the genny. Not with just your family on board. In some ways, I think that would be more of a concern than the bridge clearance or draft. Could your wife handle that much boat, if you were incapacitated?


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Wow. I've always been an admirer of the HRs but 7'6" draft ?? No way in the world would I go down that path. If I had my choice I'd stay below 6' but 6'6" absolute max. Interestingly enough even the smaller HRs have quite deep draft.

ps - love them Taswells CD. We where anchored next to one a while back in Sydney. Yum. Bit big for me and Ms Wombat by ourselves but yep, very nice bit of kit. Lack of anything even vaguely ressembling a sea berth is a bit of a worry however.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

tdw said:


> Wow. I've always been an admirer of the HRs but 7'6" draft ?? No way in the world would I go down that path. If I had my choice I'd stay below 6' but 6'6" absolute max. Interestingly enough even the smaller HRs have quite deep draft.
> 
> ps - love them Taswells CD. We where anchored next to one a while back in Sydney. Yum. Bit big for me and Ms Wombat by ourselves but yep, very nice bit of kit. Lack of anything even vaguely ressembling a sea berth is a bit of a worry however.


I got to know the Taswells pretty well. My neigbor owned a 49. Nice boat. They are all a bit different though. We have a 44 some slips down as well.

- CD


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## labatt (Jul 31, 2006)

We actually looked at that Taswell 49 yesterday and will be looking at it again today. It was our second choice boat of what we've seen. We looked at Cam's boat, and it was really nice (and didn't seem to have the issues that our broker told us Tayana's are known for), but I didn't like walking through the stays the way they were organized. We also looked at a Bristol 56 (beautiful, but completely varnished and there is a LOT of brightwork - and we want to sail). We also looked at a Passport 47, but the chart table was small and difficult to use. Right now, we're narrowed down to the Taswell 49 and the HR 53.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

labatt said:


> We actually looked at that Taswell 49 yesterday and will be looking at it again today. It was our second choice boat of what we've seen. We looked at Cam's boat, and it was really nice (and didn't seem to have the issues that our broker told us Tayana's are known for), but I didn't like walking through the stays the way they were organized. We also looked at a Bristol 56 (beautiful, but completely varnished and there is a LOT of brightwork - and we want to sail). We also looked at a Passport 47, but the chart table was small and difficult to use. Right now, we're narrowed down to the Taswell 49 and the HR 53.


Go with the T, then. I have been on them. Nice boats. Well built. Every one of them is a little bit different, though. My dock neighbor was very instrumental in their design layout and import to the US... though I have no idea how many he brought over. On the positive side, each one is personalized. On the negative side, some of the owners might have put things in without considering access. However, it is a top notch, go anywhere boat.

The HR is too. I was on one or two at the boat show some years back. It is actually my wife's favorite boat. However, my comment was: Why buy a go everywhere-on-it boat if you can't go everywhere-on-it (draft)??

Think about that as you narrow down your purchase. If you are going to consider tubs with that kind of draft, I woud also reccomend a Hylas 54 and Mason 54. THe Mason is absolutely my favorite boat.

- CD


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## retclt (Nov 7, 2006)

Have you looked at Valients? Very solid world cruisers and they'll even shorten the keel if you'd like. You can get all kinds of thing done if you're having it built. I saw a shorter keel version being built at the factory awhile back. No brightwork outside - none! They sell sailing not varnishing.

Back to the ICW . . . the ditch itself isn't the big draw for me but it's the path to the fun stuff. The Bahamas . . . I have heard of people running aground there . . . between islands . . . with no land in sight.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

retclt said:


> Back to the ICW . . . the ditch itself isn't the big draw for me but it's the path to the fun stuff. I have heard of people running aground there with no land in sight.


 You can do that off the west coast of Florida,if you don't pay attention.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Chris,
Just curious, what were the issues about Tayanas your broker mentioned?


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

With a draft of 7'6" you would not be able to get into ANY marina on Hilton Head Island at mid-tide or below, and you would have access to only three at mid-to-high tide. That's 50% of each day. Take out night sailing, and you're down to 25% of your daylight hours (on average). The ICW through all of Georgia would be off limits, as would much of southern SC.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Chris..I would go with the Taswell based on my knowledge of the boat and the sentiments above. Thanks for taking a look at mine. Was the boat cleaned up on the outside...I paid for them to do it so wanted to insure it looked good.

If you are still in annapolis you might want to look at this as it arrived too late for the show and is very interesting and i think along the lines you are looking for. http://www.outboundyachts.com/52/index.htm

EDIT: Just remembered a Tas 49 we looked at in Florida. Loved the boat but the reason we walked away was that the engine room was accessible on 3 sides and oil filter and impeller were on the FAR side and could not be accessed without crowling over a hot engine. All Taswells are custom interior so this may not be an issue with the one you are looking at...but thought it worth a mention.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

I'm glad I do not sail on the east coast. 8-14' of draft would not be too ig concern if you are in the Puget sound region, west coast US etc. most marinas have 15-20' minimums at low tide. Some a bit lower ie 12, but a lot depends upon where and how low a low tide one has. 

If I was really worried about low depth, I would probably look for a CB style, then you can pull the CB up in low depth areas, and still have the deeper draft when down for pointing etc. But that is me vs some of you elsewhere.

marty


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

I could see passing up much of the ICW. But if you HAVE to go outside of Cape Hatteras, then I'd be real concerned about the limitations. And then all comments seem to point to 6' draft as the max for Bahamas. 
So you will have to sail offshore direct to Virgin Islands from New England.


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## sailordave (Jun 26, 2001)

Okay, I'll jump in here. First off, I'm curious what kind of sailing background you have. I've noticed that people that buy big boats (and anything over 50' DEFINITELY fits that category) are usually either very new to sailing and think they need all that room even if it's just a couple, OR they are VERY experienced cruisers that have worked their way up through a few boats.
So WHY do you think you need a 53 footer?

Now, JMHO, but having seen people buy too much boat... you'd do well to consider something under 40' if it's just the two of you. Smaller = easier to handle, no need to rely on electric winches, *everything* costs less because it doesn't need to be as big or heavy duty and most importantly you can get a boat that performs pretty well and doesn't have Keel/Mast issues limiting your cruising grounds. Speaking of costs... if you're looking at an HR53 you probably have some $$$$ to toss around. If you don't really have that much money you can get cruising and go further on your budget w/ a smaller boat. If you really DO have big bucks, well, you can still go cruising and save some $$$! 
Oh, and a smaller boat will be able to be single handed by your wife if YOU are incapacitated. 
And if you are environmentally conscious... smaller boat = less impact on the environment.

Just my .02

David


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

Chris - you might want to reconsider cam's boat, if for no other reason than access to someone that knows the boat intimately. To me, that would definitely increase the value.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Dave...he already has a passport 40...I have a tayana 52...what he is looking at is not too much boat for a family and a competent sailor. He obviously is not strapped for cash if he is looking at a 750k boat. 
Some of us like the comfort AND safety of a larger boat as our home. Labatt will ONLY be happy on a large boat...just like me.


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## sailordave (Jun 26, 2001)

camaraderie said:


> Dave...he already has a passport 40...I have a tayana 52...what he is looking at is not too much boat for a family and a competent sailor. He obviously is not strapped for cash if he is looking at a 750k boat.
> Some of us like the comfort AND safety of a larger boat as our home. Labatt will ONLY be happy on a large boat...just like me.


Well then all I can say is COOL! Still seems a shame to have the draft keep you out of some good cruising grounds...

Didn't know he had the Passport, or that family would be aboard. Guess I need to read Sailnet more often.

I know for ME, 40-41 feet would be about the limit of what I'd want to take off in. Course it wouldn't be w/ the kids!


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

Didn't Labbatt just get that Boat last year or so?
I know how it is, every year we want to move up ten more feet. LOL.
Is the Passport on the market?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Yes he bought it last year but always said he'd be moving up quickly. I'm going to see if he'll adopt me.


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## AjariBonten (Sep 7, 2007)

*Not to send the thread back on track or anything...*

Does anyone know what the controlling clearance IS from Lake Ontario, through to the Atlantic? That question really hasn't been addressed yet, and coincidentally I was planning on starting a new thread on that question when I came across this one.

Thanks, Fred


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## labatt (Jul 31, 2006)

Alright... to answer lots of questions  We were at the show again today so this is the first time I've logged on since...

For those who want to know why we want a larger boat, there are a few reasons. First off, I'm 6'3" and if I'm going to live on a boat for 2+ years I want a few things: headroom throughout the boat with a minimum of stooping down; A bunk in the master stateroom that fits myself and my 5'8" wife well (we're close, but like our room); Room for storage of my wife's triathlon bike; Three cabins (one for the wife and I, one each for our kids); A large chart table that can double as an office area; Lots of tankage, but also multi-zone AC and diesel heat while still having storage left. There are a number of other things we'd like, and all of these things have led us down the path of a 48'+ boat. Actually, after this weekend we've realized that we really need a 52'+ boat to fit everything. I would prefer a smaller boat for handling purposes, but since most of our time will be spent at anchor exploring the areas that we visit, we want lots of comfort.

The next question/comment - we currently own a Passport 40 as mentioned. We bought a Precision 23 at the boat show two years ago. We bought the Passport 40 during the last show. We were hoping to find our "final boat" at this show. This is our 4 year "accelerated" plan for cruising. I grew up racing on the Long Island Sound and thought I knew about sailing, but then we bought our first boat in anticipation of this cruise (and called it "Anticipation") and I realized how little I did know. I could sail, but handling under power, anchoring, heavy weather handling, navigation, etc - these are all things I had no clue about. I've learned a tremendous amount over the past couple of years through practice (we've been out over 70 days this summer alone), book learning, this site, etc. My wife, who had zero sailing experience when we bought the Precision 23 (which was an incredible boat) has now gone through several ASA certifications (by herself) to learn about sailing. Even our 10 year old son has been to sailing camp and will be going again next year. Our 6 year old daughter is along for the ride for the moment . Do we have a ton of experience? Nope... but I do know how to tie a bowline (bumfuzzle reference there). We plan on learning a lot more as we progress over the next couple of years and then on our trip. 

Cam - your boat looked beautiful and it was my wife's favorite until we looked at the HR53. They did a good job of cleaning it up. I tried to see if I could make it work, and fell in love with the exterior and the layout, but I couldn't get past a few odds and ends, like the fact that the stays took up a good portion of the side decks. I'm a sucker for clean decks. I also had a hard time lying down in the cockpit comfortably, and that's a necessity. She is a great boat, and I'm shocked she's not sold yet. With regards to the issues our broker said he has seen with older Tayana's, he said he often sees weird fiberglass issues. He mentioned they tend to leak in weird areas - not around the stays, stanchions, tracks, etc., but around the companionway, the aft lazarette areas, etc. He also said the fiberglass they used is prone to having chunks come off. He was impressed with the quality of your boat.

John - it was nice meeting you at the Sailnet party the other night (we were the ones with the Chinese food), and I appreciate what you are saying about knowing the prior owner and I wish I could make it work.

Now, regarding the Taswell. We went back and checked her out again this morning to compare her against the HR53 we saw after. I would have loved to make her work since I could have saved several hundred thousand dollars. Someone is going to get a great deal on that boat since
they just updated all of the electronics (E120 at the nav station, E80 at the helm, new SSB, new VHF, ST60+'s for the rest) and it's pretty loaded. It has a slightly strange cabin configuration with over/under bunks instead f a V-Berth plus a second set of over/under bunks in the second guest stateroom, but we actually liked that since it would mean less arguing by the kids. What we had an issue with was headroom - I just fit when I walked off the centerline, and I had to stoop in the forward cabin - it was about 2-3" too short. Also, tankage and systems took away from a lot of the storage. It was just *slightly* too small for us. The other Taswell 49 in Annapolis just went under contract so it is off the market for the moment. There's a Taswell 56 in TX we might look at, but at the offered price it doesn't leave much room (or any room) for any refit or maintenance items. We're assuming the remainder of the Taswell 49's will have similar headroom issues and storage issues (for us).

Sailortjk1 - our absolutely wonderful and beautiful Passport 40 will be on the market as soon as we buy our new boat. She was in great shape when we got her and we've done a number of systems and rigging upgrades. If anyone will have an interest in her before we put her on the market, let me know and I'll be sure to reach out to you before I get a broker involved.

Tom - I have enough people I'm responsible for now so I can't adopt you, but we'd gladly welcome you for a visit for a day or week when we start cruising! As we will most any NICE Sailnetter.

With regards to where we're at with boat hunting, I talked with Tayana today about a 58 Deck Saloon (basically their 55 deck saloon with an extended sugar scoop). I'd prefer a smaller boat than a 58, but they are making it VERY attractive (almost making it more to go with a 55) to go with the 58. They must have a few 58 hulls already being laid up. A custom 58 Deck Saloon with everything we want would be more than the HR53, but not out of our price range. They also have a deep draft though - 7'2". Air draft is 63', but that's without masthead instruments, so it would be over 63' when done.

Now back to my original questions - what problems will we have... I spoke with a friend of a friend who regularly delivers yachts all over the world, but mostly focuses on delivering yachts from the Carribean to the east coast. First off, he has delivered an HR53 and he was floored by the boat - the quality, the sailing performance, the comfort, etc. He said we would obviously have issues traversing the ICW, but that we shouldn't have issues in ducking into many larger ports. He also said that he's cruised through the Bahamas with bigger boats, but we should get a dinghy with a big engine since we'd have to anchor pretty far off in many places. So the wife suggested that we change our plans a bit, do some of the east coast, and then maybe hop into the Pacific a bit earlier than we originally anticipated. I'm going to start going through charts when I get home tomorrow. I think the only way I'll be able to decide is to look for myself.

Fred (AjariBonten) - I've been told that there are no issues with depth or air draft going from Lake Ontario to Nova Scotia. Large cargo vessels with much deeper drafts and higher freeboard do it all the time. If you do a search on previous postings of mine, you'll see a thread about the St. Lawrence.

So where are we? No closer to a decision. If we go with a custom Tayana 58DS, I need to sign the paperwork by January to make sure it's complete in time for our trip. We also just learned that our marina won't allow any new boats over 49' in due to a large microburst that occured on Northern Lake Champlain this summer with 90+mph winds that devastated another marina. We'd have to move marinas, and we've made a lot of friends this past year - we're not sure we'd want to give it up. I think we'll keep going down a path of looking deeper at the HR53 and the Tayana 58DS for the moment. We'll keep everyone informed!

Chris


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Chris,
It sounds like exciting times for you and I wish you the best of luck, we have a common bond. I may just take you up on that offer. Will keep following your progress with great anticipation.


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## labatt (Jul 31, 2006)

Cam - Forgot to mention - we did initial research on the Outbound 52 earlier this year and were very impressed. However, the list price was well over $1mil before being completely outfitted so outside our price range. We're focusing on the HR53 right now... after much discussion and understanding the limitations created by the draft, I think we appreciate her for what she is and are going to dig a bit deeper, perhaps culminating in a purchase at some point in the next month or two. While we really like the Tayana 58 Deck Saloon, we realized that we can outfit the HR53 with everything we want and still save $100k. BTW - the draft on the Tayana 55/58 is 7'2" so not much different than the HR53. There is a shoal draft version available but we'd prefer the pointing ability and safety of the full keel.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Chris...gotcha...ouch, I don't know how they expect to get that much...too bad. Sounds like you are going into the HR53 with your eyes wide open and they ARE fine, fine boats...so good luck on the rest of the process!


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## speciald (Mar 27, 2007)

Have you seen the new Bill Dixon - designed Tayana 54. The first one is due in Annapolis Shortly - didn't make the shoe but is on their web site. http://www.cabrilloyachts.com/cabrilloyachts/cabrilloyachts_9.html


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Labatt,

I am just curious... but it seems like those boats used to be a lot less expensive (relatively). Am I wrong?? I remember shopping them many years ago (it is my wife's favorite boat). However, the price tag did not seem quite as steep. I would assume that is due to the low dollar value? If so, what would happen to the value of that boat should (when) the dollar go back up? 

Just a curious thought. Not trying to be confusing... so please do not take it as such.

- CD


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## labatt (Jul 31, 2006)

CD - no problem. I believe the boats have actually appreciated in price. As the Euro has crept up even higher against the dollar, the USD cost of buying a new HR has crept up, inflating the price on used ones along the way. We don't have any plans on selling this next boat for quite some time and would be walking into the sale knowing there could be significant depreciation if the dollar strengthens. From what I've seen, the used market pricing is heavily based upon what the boat would cost new. The HR53 is no longer being made, so it's probably being compared against the HR54. On the other hand, the HR53 we're looking at is one of the least expensive on the market due to the fact that it was already located in the US.

Speciald - we've seen the specs on the new 54 and it looks nice, but they are costing a premium over the 55/58 due to the newness of the design. I believe hull #1 has already arrived or will be arriving in the US shortly.


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## Morgan3820 (Dec 21, 2006)

*Why do people always want such huge boats (and RVs).*

Why do people always want such huge boats (and RVs). What more does it get you? Even if money is not an issue and you think that a boat with a bowling alley is a good idea, handling is a PIA and a menace to others with anything less than four good hands. If you want a condo buy a condo, If you want a boat get a boat. You wouldn't be able to visit my hometown because of the masthight.

Jesse Garman
New Bern, NC

Ps. I would love to have your Passport 40.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Morgan, he asnwered the "why a big boat" a few posts up; before the critique always read.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

I don't see any cruisers selling big boats for smaller ones! Must be something to it!!
The way it goes is smallboat...bigger boat...bigger boat...trawler/(or RV)!!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Morgan,
So you'd love to have his Passport 40! I'll bet that would be a bigger boat for you.


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## Morgan3820 (Dec 21, 2006)

teshannon said:


> Morgan,
> So you'd love to have his Passport 40! I'll bet that would be a bigger boat for you.


Only by 2 ft.-SA. I have a very nice Morgan 382. Started with a Cal 20, 23 yrs ago. Then Alberg30, P-35. From his post he started boat ownership 2 yrs ago and he is looking at a 53 footer??!! I have been sailing all of my adult life and would not buy a boat over 42 ft because two people cannot safely operate big boats in all conditions. But apparently my opinion is in the minority-nothing new. But I see this all of the time with RVing, flying, sailing, boating. People buy small, have fun but say to themselves wouldn't it be nice if... so they get rid of the fun they have and get something bigger, faster. Then they repeat the process until they get the ultimate toy. then they find out that they don't use it as much as they would like because it is 'so much trouble to take out'. Then they either sit at the dock, entertaining guests or get out of the hobby altoghether. Look at any marina on a weekend, most of the boats that go out are 30-40fters. While most of the 45fters sit at their slips. It is a fact that the easier something is to do the more often you will do it.
I don't know why he doesn't buy a trawler anyway. nobody sails anymore anyway. I was out fishing on the Neuse River this morning (yes, I own a powerboat too), and i watched a parade of 12 snowbirds headed down river from New Bern headed to Morehead City. With a fair SW wind (broad reach) not one, not one of the sailboats had their sails up. WTF


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

I would consider and have considered a trawler - even tried to buy one several times but it just was not meant to be. Why?

I enjoy CRUISING. I enjoy sailing. I enjoy anchoring out and gunkholing in the dink (actually, that is my favorite thing). I would have ABSOLUTELY no interest in a large boat if I was not going to cruise/liveaboard. But I have said this many, many times: Cruising/LA versus weekending and vacationing is totally different. I enjoy popping popcorn on a long watch at night. Though I watch very little "tv", I do enjoy the occasional movie. I enjoy sleeping comfortably and showers and having a place I can escape from the kids. I enjoy turning on the air conditioner when it is raining outside and about 85-90 degrees! Now, this is not weekend cruising I am talking about - this is living abord and cruising full time.

When you live on your boat (at least for us) we would opt to motor half the time versus going to weather. It is not that heeling bothers us, but when you LA and heel over 15-20 in seas, all your crap starts banging around and popping out of the shelves and toys go flying and the kids can't play in the floor, etc. Why bother?? For the sake of sailing??? Nah. You are a F/T LA and can sail any time and do sail all the time. It is not worth the hassle. I have met VERY FEW liveaboards that were any different. Of course, the exception to this rule is when you are making a passage. THen you just take what comes to you and you have to deal with it.

I personally do not begrudge labatt for his selectin and size. Cruising/LA to work has to be something of comfort. Comfort is different things for different people. THrowing kids in the mix adds a whole other level people cannot appreciate unless they have/are raising thier children on a boat. THere is no real reason to "grizzly adams" it anymore. I have expressed my concerns about his draft more than his bridge clearance, though both would be a killer for me as the places I enjoy going require under 65 and under 7. However, he is aware of his limitations and will plan appropriately I am sure. He is allowed to carry a larger dink with that boat (or two, as I would suggest) than what I can comforably carry so many of the areas that are unapproachable by his 'home' will be approachable by his 'car'. THe car is one of the most used pieces of equipment... or at least it was for us. 

And let's not forget, he is buying one of the finest boats made in the world... well, outside of a Catalina 400, but maybe I am prejudice!!

- CD


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Nah, maybe you're just nuts.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

Labatt,

You could do a lot worse than an HR53. The draft would be a bigger concern to me than the mast height. Missing out on the ICW wouldn't bother me in a boat of this size, heck with that much waterline and a good forecast you coud bypass most of the east-coast ICW in just 3-4 days and save yourself weeks of slogging along under power. But having to anchor so far out in the other places you might visit would thrill me a lot less. It wouldn't be a dealbreaker for me, but it would give me MUCH pause.

This is a fairly rarified cross section of boats that you're looking at -- one I'm somewhat less familiar with than say the 30-45 foot range. I recognize you've pretty well zeroed in on the HR53 (be sure to ask about that windshield glass issue I mentioned in the other thread), but this is a big investment and if I were looking in this size range there are a few other boats I'd want to compare with at least for a sanity check:

Amel: 54, or Supermaramu 53

Malo: 46 (yes, it's smaller, but in my opinion they are more creative with their interiors than HR). http://www.maloyachts.se/

Najad: 490, again more creative/flexible use of interior space than HR. Optional 6'7" draft. http://www.seacraft.com/najad490.htm

Morris: Why not give one of our homegrown's a good look. Chuck Paine seems to have been able to get away with much more reasonable draft than HR/German Frers. New might be out of your range, but take a look at some of the used offerings. http://www.morrisyachts.com/sail/51/ also http://www.morrisyachts.com/brokerage/

Best of luck with your decision.


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## labatt (Jul 31, 2006)

Morgan - I appreciate what you are saying. You do realize we're talking about getting a boat for cruising, right? We're putting our stuff in storage, renting our house, and then starting to cruise in June of 2009. We've even talked lately about selling our house and just doing this in perpetuity. When you talk about people buying larger boats just to have a larger boat, and having them sit in their slips all the time - I know that happens. But I'm fairly sure that if someone says they are going out cruising and then buys a larger boat, they'll leave the slip and actually use it.

I've talked extensively with people about smaller boats for our cruise. I absolutely love our Passport 40, but when we go for our cruise our son will be 12 (and almost 6' tall and going through puberty) and our daughter will be 8 (and living every minute of it). I can't see them continuing to sleep head to toe in the aft berth. Every night I have to climb over my wife in our V-Berth to go use the head. I usually end up kneeing her head in the process! The galley is of an excellent size, as is the eating area, but while the chart table is great, you have to sit on the edge of the settee (with no back support) to use it. I can singlehand her when I need to. Could we do our trip in our Passport 40? Sure. Is there any room for privacy or independence on the vessel? Not for a family of four. It's perfectly suited for a couple though!

So that leads us to a bigger boat. Until you get to a 48'+ boat, you don't really get any room for a real third cabin without extensively sacrificing salon space/galley/nav station. Looking at a lot of 48'-55' boats, we don't see many differences with regards to sail forces or handling. With all of the systems intact, the HR53 we're looking at would actually be easier to sail singlehanded than our Passport 40. If we lost electrics, we'd have a problem, but I believe two of us could handle it. That's one thing we'll be looking at during a test sail prior to doing a survey and spending lots of money.

Also, you mentioned boats staying in their slips. One of the reasons we're looking at a boat of this size is so that we can anchor out most of the time and be comfortable. We'll let others stay in their slips.

Morgan - I'll ask you this. To you, is there ANY valid reason to get a 50'+ boat, or do you think the manufacturers stop selling them? 

CD- we'll definitely have two dinghies. Number one will be our current inflatable bottom Avon R280 with the 6HP Merc. We'll store that one deflated while on passage. Our primary will be a RIB of some sort (probably an AB, Caribe or another Avon) with a 15HP (or perhaps slightly larger so we can have fun with it AND go fast). We'll keep that one tied down to our foredeck while on passage.

Chris


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## labatt (Jul 31, 2006)

John -

I spend a more than a few hours a week looking through YachtWorld at boats that meet our criteria . Some people would consider it fun, but I'm starting to tire of it! My usual search parameters are: 1) 48'-58' length, 2) Built between 1984 and 2008, 3) Cost between $300k and $800k, 4) Located in the US, and 5) Cruiser, Racer/Cruiser, Center-Cockpit, Pilothouse, Deck Salon as valid boat types. Currently that shows 168 boats. I've then removed boats from manufacturers I don't recognize (and don't show up as good in Google searches), and boats that I would consider more coastal (Beneteau, Jeanneau, Hunter, etc.). I remove boats that focus on the quality of the varnish on the exterior (we won't keep it up and I can't do that to a showpiece of a boat). I remove boats that I don't like the shape of (Amel and Mac 26's). I remove boats that cost $350k and I'll have to put $300k into in order to refit, since I'll never ever see that money back, vs a boat that costs $300k-$400k and is almost ready to go (although resale value is VERY low on the consideration list). I remove boats that need a lot of TLC. I remove boats that don't have the 3 cabin layout we're looking for, or have a weird third cabin (perhaps with a compression post or inner forestay piercing through the center of the berth). This usually leaves about 20-25 boats in the entire country that meet our needs. We then have a four page list of criteria we're looking to meet, and we examine the boats in depth against this criteria list.

We actually weren't looking to buy a boat right now. We were trying to make the decision on having one built (which will take a year or so) or buying on the used market. We were in Annapolis, so I figured we'd look at a few boats for the heck of it and we tripped over this HR53. It met almost every single criteria on our 4 page checklist except for ICW capable and a few other odds and ends (you can see part of our checklist here). When that happens, you have to take it seriously!

Thanks for your comments! Bypassing most of the ICW is what we're considering, as is your mention of the limitation in other areas. It seems that once we get out of the islands we'll do OK, but we'll have a long dinghy ride in a lot of areas.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

Labatt,

I perused your list and it's apparent you've put a lot of thought into this. I do notice that the HR53 doesn't meet some of the primary requirements, notably the draft. Which is a fairly significant criteria, I would think. Just a few more things to consider as you weigh the draft issue:

Yes, you can get a bigger dinghy/outboard and make the longer trip back and forth to shore, but long dinghy rides can be a major drag, especially at night. With kids aboard, in some locations it might often mean that you're out beyond the swimming/play zones where other families will have anchored. Also consider the real possibility that you could have engine trouble enroute and be sure to equip your tender accordingly (safety/survival/comm equipment). 

On the plus side, she'll probably sail to weather like anything -- a useful virtue for sure.

Is HR still subcontracting their hull/decks? Last time I looked at them seriously (a number of years ago) the company that was providing the hull/decks was building them with a chopper gun, which surprised me given the HR reputation, and it was a bit of a turn-off for me. Otherwise, these seem like nice solid boats.


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

I've been watching from afar and I have just one question.
Why is another Passport not an option?
I guess everything is still an option at this point.
After all you do state that you are concidering semi-custom new, which is what the Pasport is. I like the looks of the Vista 515CC. Nice boat.
Also love the HR, good luck in your decision.


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## labatt (Jul 31, 2006)

We've talked quite a bit with Thom Wagner from Passport and had felt the 515CC would be the perfect boat. Unfortunately, with recent price changes, it's just outside the budget we set for ourselves. We want to hold true to the budget so we don't put ourselves in a potentially bad financial place. We want to save the majority of our funding for the trip itself. We'd love to buy a used 515CC, but there aren't any on the market at this point. We've looked at other Passports but none have met our requirements. I sure wish they did though, as we love our 40!!!


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## labatt (Jul 31, 2006)

John - Yes, we've given a lot of thought to the list, and that list only represents about half of our interests. We have a much bigger list that we use when we're doing a walk through of a boat.

Yes, the short draft was listed as a "must have" on the list, however that's the reason I kicked off this thread. We're reconsidering that as a primary requirement.

With regards to the decks, I'll have to ask about what they were doing in 2000. I'm surprised to hear they were using a chopper gun when you look at the quality of everything else!

Good point on equipping the tender properly. My son wants me to get one with a console! I'd rather spend my money elsewhere, but flares and GPS might not be a bad idea. I'd have to get a lockable box for the stuff though.

Based on the research we've done thus far, it looks like the east coast of the US and the Bahamas might be our only major issues. We won't be able to gunkhole with it.

I'm so back and forth with making this decision! I'm definitely not sold on it yet.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

Labatt,

I would be very back and forth on this one too. It's an incredibly tough call. But no need to rush, either.

On the chopper gun construction, it was not just the decks but the hulls as well. I have noticed a distinct lack of information concerning hull construction/lay-up schedule details on their website, which makes me suspicious. All I've been able to find is this statement: "The GRP hull is reinforced with a grid structure at floor level to give it increased stiffness."

For the tender, probably the two most important items would be a good anchor/rode system and a VHF. Flares and emergency water next. It's not a bad idea to have these regardless of the draft of your mothership, though.


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