# Catamarans can't self-right. Dealbreaker?



## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

Catamarans can't self-right once they capsize. Many cruisers I have met would not consider crossing oceans because of this and consider it a deal breaker from a safety standpoint.

A good example is this Atlantic 57 which got flipped:






Obviously there are things that can go wrong on any boat, but it seems to me that minimizing such risks is good sense. As demonstrated by the above video, even seasoned sailors making passage during the right time of year can get unlucky.

Thoughts?


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## ianjoub (Aug 3, 2014)

I discounted cats for that reason.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

UpNot a deal breaker for me. I have operated 2 power cats, both in ugly conditions, sketchy stuff. Multiple years full time operation on each. 

The smaller of the two, a 60 footer could cruise over 30 knots and she and her sister ships operated in challenging ocean conditions. She could be a whicked hard ride, like seat belts hard ride. But she was stable. 

The bigger of the two was an 85 footer. Slower boat but smooth riding and crazy stable. I operated her in some pretty ugly stuff.

If I was on a stable enough boat, and not all of them are, cats are not all equal and uniform, then I wouldn't be overly concerned about her ability to self right because the forces required to flip her would likely leave either a cat or mono of equal size in pretty rough condition any way. 

For a very stable cruising cat, I personally would be more concerned about the boats ability to absorb damage than her ability to self right.

This is based on experience on power cats, but the hulls of power cats aren't all that different from sailing cats. They don't need to be.


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## BillMoran (Oct 1, 2016)

Arcb said:


> This is based on experience on power cats, but the hulls of power cats aren't all that different from sailing cats. They don't need to be.


But the forces on a power cat aren't at all the same as on a sailing cat. There's nowhere near the same lateral force from the wind that could flip it. Same reason a monohull powerboat doesn't heel appreciably when then wind blows and thus doesn't need a keel.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

BillMoran said:


> But the forces on a power cat aren't at all the same as on a sailing cat. There's nowhere near the same lateral force from the wind that could flip it. Same reason a monohull powerboat doesn't heel appreciably when then wind blows and thus doesn't need a keel.


Yes, I agree. That's why I stated what my experience was. It's not an exact match to the question. I'm a beach cat sailor too, so I know a bit about how the boats sail too, but in smaller scale.

My monohull doesn't have a ballasted keep btw, it relies on form stability and the skippers decisions to remain on it's feet.


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

I think you have identified a 'risk' factor for cats and it is great to be educated and understand how much of a risk factor it actually is. 

I do feel there is always a danger in honing in and obsessing about any one risk to this degree, far better to understand the physics as best you can and to then make sensible risk assessments based on the totality of the safety equation of a vessel. 

There are of course attributes common to cats that make them potentially 'safer' than monos. For example having two engines I feel is of good use to a cruising sailor. The difference between an engine failure on a lee shore with failing breeze when you have a second engine sitting there as opposed to it occurring on a single engined mono is the difference between a potential emergency and merely an annoying inconvenience. (for those that care to do the research there are other safety benefits to cats, but of course these are weighed against a couple of negatives as well) 

To be honest I see the 'flipping' argument as no different to obsessing about keels falling off monos. Its a risk, it's happened. I could post a youtube video of it happening and we could all then conclude that we would never sail on a single engined monohull what with keels falling off left, right and centre 

The reality is however Cats are crossing oceans despite what Sailnet says. Plenty of them and awkwardly for this thread the vast majority of them are not flipping over. If you decide to be a cat sailor than clearly you would do your research and make sure you know how to sail your vessel in a safe manner. There are plenty of consequences for sailing any vessel poorly.

Here in Australia there has been a marked increase in the amount of cruising cats arriving across the Pacific. A quick glance at the world ARC tells me that there are 7 Cats intending to try and get the whole way round flip free.


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

chall03 said:


> I think you have identified a 'risk' factor for cats and it is great to be educated and understand how much of a risk factor it actually is.
> 
> To be honest I see the 'flipping' argument as no different to obsessing about keels falling off monos. Its a risk, it's happened. I could post a youtube video of it happening and we could all then conclude that we would never sail on a single engined monohull what with keels falling off left, right and centre
> 
> ...


Sure, they are crossing oceans. Met several owners in the South Pacific as well.

Going turtle doesn't happen any more to either style of boat - the difference is with a cat, it's not coming back up. Friends of ours were in a circumnavigation and one of the couples crossing the Indian ocean with them were in a cat sailing heavy seas, when their drogue broke and they got turtled. They were lucky that after 14 hours of clinging on to the cat they were rescued, but they lost the boat and everything they had. They were quite experienced and were not sailing it in an unsafe manner.

Plenty of cats have capsized in the ARC - racing is a bad example as they push them harder than cruisers would. In racing it is easy to find examples of capsized cats - not as easy to find keels that fell off raceboats, though.


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

Lazerbrains said:


> Plenty of cats have capsized in the ARC


Really I don't know of any in recent years. Could you please point me to specific incidents?

Plenty of rudder failures in the ARC as well, that does not mean that having a boat with a rudder to me would be a 'deal breaker'. It just means I try to keep my rudder attached as best I can.

I don't disagree with you that it has happened and is a potential risk.

If you look at the physics it is a risk more specific to racing cats than cruising cats and part of sailing a cat is understanding the importance of when to reef.

One the most successful boat manufacturers in Australia is Seawind Catamarans. I have sailed on one and it was thoroughly well thought out cruising boat. They have built 500 + boats now and have not had a single capsize.


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

chall03 said:


> Plenty of rudder failures in the ARC as well, that does not mean that having a boat with a rudder to me would be a 'deal breaker'. It just means I try to keep my rudder attached as best I can.
> 
> I don't disagree with you that it has happened and is a potential risk.
> 
> One the most successful boat manufacturers in Australia is Seawind Catamarans. I have sailed on one and it was thoroughly well thought out cruising boat. They have built 500 + boats now and have not had a single capsize.


I like skeg hung or keel hung rudders for this reason, myself.

I don't think Seawind are somehow immune to capsize more than any other boat.

Again, I have nothing against cats - I like the way they sail (except to weather). 
I like to minimize risk during ocean passage. Being capsized is probably a 1 in 1000 chance in any boat, but I would rather have a monohull if those conditions appeared. Others take more risks. A rudder *could* fail, a keel *could* fall off, but in the event of capsize, a catamaran **will not** come back upright.

You pays your money and you takes your chances.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Odd that the Oyster thread is being spammed with Cat pics and marketing material and the same people are avoiding the cat thread. Weird.


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## kd3pc (Oct 19, 2006)

Lazerbrains said:


> Catamarans can't self-right once they capsize. Many cruisers I have met would not consider crossing oceans because of this and consider it a deal breaker from a safe
> 
> Thoughts?


Most newer cats have a hatch or soft spot that will/could be broached if it turns turtle as an emergency exit.

I would not overly worry about them capsizing more than any other vessel out there.

There sure are comfortable.


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

Arcb said:


> Odd that the Oyster thread is being spammed with Cat pics and marketing material and the same people are avoiding the cat thread. Weird.


Are you really surprised?

:2 boat:


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## amwbox (Aug 22, 2015)

It's a deal breaker in my region. The thought of crossing the Columbia Bar in a cat when things can go south in minutes makes me shudder. If I were just bobbing around in the tropical islands, it wouldn't be much of an issue to me. Basically the final expression of the process of transmuting boats into floating apartments.

And to be fair...a lot of modern mono's with very wide beams are actually _very_ stable when inverted. Much more difficult to get them back to the proper lead down configuration...but it can be done. With a cat it's simply all over.

That said...my main problem with cats is that I think they're ugly and I've not been terribly impressed by how they sail. Just no fun. My personal experience is limited to a Gemini 105. Great boat, I'm told. No heel no fun. Hobie cats on the other hand...


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## ggray (Jun 18, 2011)

Lazerbrains said:


> In racing it is easy to find examples of capsized cats - not as easy to find keels that fell off raceboats, though.


Sigh.
And it's not easy to find keelboats that have had major hull breaches. Or broken thru hulls.
Calling Robert Ballard.


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## amwbox (Aug 22, 2015)

Not sure what's that's supposed to indicate. **** happens.


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

Lazerbrains said:


> I don't think Seawind are somehow immune to capsize more than any other boat.


Didn't say they were. Yet it hasn't happened.



Lazerbrains said:


> Again, I have nothing against cats - I like the way they sail (except to weather).
> I like to minimize risk during ocean passage. Being capsized is probably a 1 in 1000 chance in any boat, but I would rather have a monohull if those conditions appeared. Others take more risks. A rudder *could* fail, a keel *could* fall off, but in the event of capsize, a catamaran **will not** come back upright.
> 
> You pays your money and you takes your chances.


And that is your preference. We all have them. I am also a mono sailor and for me its purely subjective. I enjoy sailing monohulls. Have nothing against cats and as I have said in another thread could see myself cruising on a cat at some stage.

The question you posed in this thread was is it a deal breaker? To me it absolutely would not be.

I tend to believe that the so called 'deal breaker' is nonsense sailing folklore. Cruising cats don't capsize en masse. There is absolutely no evidence for it.


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## StarwindMango (Oct 14, 2016)

Don't think I would take on a long ocean passage any of the condo-marans like you see in charter fleets, but for that matter not sure I would take any of the monohull charter boats either. The Gunboats, Outremer, etc. can certainly be distance cruisers. So no, not really a dealbreaker for me.

Not to take the thread off topic, but I think I'd prefer a trimaran over a cat for serious ocean cruising. If you can get one big enough to have decent accommodations.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

This should be a consideration... even when the risk is low... the outcome is usually fatal


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I wonder if it would be possible to design a trimaran with mechanically adjustable amas that would permit self righting. Draw in one side, extend the other?

I've been on a couple of self righting power boats that used some pretty ingenius designs, like hurricane zodiacs with co2 bladders. Might be possible.


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## StarwindMango (Oct 14, 2016)

Arcb said:


> I wonder if it would be possible to design a trimaran with mechanically adjustable amas that would permit self righting. Draw in one side, extend the other?
> 
> I've been on a couple of self righting power boats that used some pretty ingenius designs, like hurricane zodiacs with co2 bladders. Might be possible.


Now that would be cool! Talk about a 180 from Bob Perry's carbon cutter.


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

Trimarans are much better sailing vessels than catamarans. 
I think they will never catch on for the cruising crowd, however, because lets face it - the appeal of the catamaran is that it is a "floating condo" with lots of space.
Trimarans have the same space (or less) than a monohull.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Risks from heavy weather at sea, now, are radically different from what cruisers faced 40 years ago.

Until recently you didn't have extensive satellite coverage. You didn't have long range forecasts. And many cruisers had an HF radio or local word of mouth and had to plan their weather crossings from that.

Contrast to a modern FAST cat, making twice the speed of an old cruiser, with a seven to ten day forecast reliably almost anywhere in the world, so you've got a week to get where you are going and simply never get caught in sixty knots and twenty foot seas.

Now add EPIRBs and standard escape hatches under the hulls, and there's a reason why so many folks succumb to the lure of the flat luxury and never even consider what could happen in a surprise Cat4 storm. They just don't go out when there's one of those around.

Look at all the monohull cruisers out there, who maybe strapped down their batteries. Maybe. But still don't have latches on the bilge boards, much less the cabinets and drawers.

There is some point to saying that capsizing a cat in heavy weather is your father's problem, not yours. Not NOW.

(And yes, I still prefer a lead mine AND a keel stepped mast.)


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## Ninefingers (Oct 15, 2009)

Is this forum for people who cheat death on a daily basis or something? 

Holy cripes. I, and probably 99% of the people who sail, will never come close to conditions where capsizing would be possible.


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## amwbox (Aug 22, 2015)

The whole point of this thread presupposes a scenario where people's belief that they are masters of the weather (or the hilarious belief that they can outrun it!) because they can download a forecast winds up being revealed to be a fantasy, and the **** has hit the fan already. 

Simply pointing out that weather or sea states severe enough to capsize a boat are unlikely doesn't address the point. This is about the unlikely event happening. When you go farther offshore on a long passage, the value of a weather window decreases substantially, the risks increase, and you are right back to running the odds, just like the rest of sailing history. Every year, it happens, boats get rolled, (or in the case of cats, flipped upside down) and people die. Odds are against it, but it happens anyways. That is the scenario. When your number is up...do you want a boat that will right itself or don't you? 

But yeah...if you are just island hopping or coastal cruising and can check a weather report, you probably don't care. And that is 99.5% of all sailors.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Until you do......

That said storm tactics for multis have changed significantly since the time Nat drew his first one. More commonly one sees series drogues then sea anchors so rudders are at less risk and storms can be weathered passively once deployed.
The huge upside is other than fire sinking is extremely unlikely in a multi designed for blue water. Even with collision bulkheads the same can’t be said for the majority of monos.
Given they slide down wave fronts if dagger boards are up capsize isn’t the biggest concern rather it’s pitchpoling. I carry a jsd. On a multi I would carry two and make sure their runs are totally chafe free.
So although there are a multiplicity of reasons to prefer a mono to a multi and a multi to a mono I don’t think this is one of them.
BTW most ocean going power boats have keels filled with tons of lead. Think norhavn, Fleming, Selene etc. 
Some cats (MastFoil and others) can feather their wing masts to slow the boat or feather to decrease or eliminate heeling forces. A slick trick few monos can do. Realize as JeffH has pointed out in storm conditions just a rolled up jib can produce huge forces.
Further the idea that current weather routing can prevent encountering bad weather unfortunately continues to not be borne out. I referred to friends on a 53’ cat elsewhere. They are among the most highly skilled sailors I know. Their boat has all the bells an whistles. Last year they skirted a hurricane seeing >60kts. for days. They blew out an escape hatch so even those have their pluses and minuses. Then their are simple line squalls which I never seem to miss on any passage. White squalls. Micro bursts. Rogue waves. Races and rages. Bars. Lots of stuff to ruin your day. Lastly on a boat weather is real local. Predictions aren’t down to the scale that’s always useful.
Get over it guys. There’s no perfect boat. Although my wife is the perfect woman (or so I tell her).
I’d jump on a rapido 60 or some of the one off multis I’ve seen. Don’t agree with the premise of this thread. Do agree many multis are ill suited for passagemaking as are many monos.

Does anyone know the details of this mishap?


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Here are some details on the incident from the designers website, kind of cool he is so open about it on his site. Not much info, but it seems they were hit by a squal with winds measured to 62 knots under Jib and single reefed main and, well flipped.

https://www.chriswhitedesigns.com/what-we-can-learn-from-anna-s-capsize-by-chris-white

The interesting thing is, this one isnt the only of these boats to flip in a sudden squal. There was another one in the carribean. Sailing along, reefed right down, squal hit and the boat flipped.

https://chriswhitedesigns.com/leopard-capsize

So, I guess it can happen. Not all multi hull designs are going to be as susceptable to capsize though. I beleive these Atlantic 57s are pretty fast boats.


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

amwbox said:


> This is about the unlikely event happening.


Exactly.

Its ridiculously unlikely that you will ever be a position to capsize a production cruising cat. Which to me just makes the idea that this would be a deal breaker nonsensical.

Someone with more time than I could run the stats on the amount of known keel losses on monohulls over the past couple of years as a comparison to amount of cat capsizes.

I would also suggest the outcomes of losing a keel on a mono tend to be more severe than a cat capsize. Mostly I feel you just pop the escape hatch, hit the EPRIB and wait


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

One has to give Chris Kudos for how straightforward, honest and promptly responsive he was concerning these two events. He was similarly responsive when a MastFoil failed going north along the California coast. To me quite different than than the long drawn out affairs with B and O when they had their troubles.
Also note in both instances no loss of life. Boats didn’t sink. Crews were promptly rescued. Compare this to mono events involving knockdowns or rolls.
Again those putting faith in their weather routers are foolhardy. As I said earlier for the boat weather is local. Predictions are for a region. Everyone here who passages has been in high winds when the gribs or forecast has one or two vanes on the arrow. Even when accurate systems are hundreds of miles so get over it regardless of your theoretical boat speed. 
I think one of the big risks of some cats ( and some fractional square head monos) is a big main. You can throw off jib sheets in a second but regardless of system it takes time to reef a main. Prout got around this with a very high aspect but small main and a solent set up on their jibs. Their 39 had a great rep as a sea boat.
I don’t like in boom as in a sudden blow I may not be able let along willing to head dead into the wind. I don’t like in mast as being able to point is important to me and have already had occasion to take a knife to a main in a squall when the mandrill bent.
Jon E was all over KISS. He was right.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Most of the cats I've seen don't have the sail area to flip without significant wave action. Every series of Rudy Choy cats have had at least one flip over and when asked about it, Rudy Choy quite flatly said, “My boats don’t tip over. People tip them over.”
As for a ‘deal breaker’? A monohull will sink at sea. Most multihulls upside down will float for quite some time with water, food and clothing readily at hand to the crew in their liferaft, attached to the cat. Perhaps not a bad deal, to some.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Anecdotally, it seems from the looks of storm damaged marinas, that Cats are more likely to be blown away/over than monos. I'm not saying that's a fact, because I have no stats, but it seems logical. They weigh less and wind can get under the bridge deck. 

Certainly, if you're cruising, you should avoid being near heavy storm areas, during season. However, if you haul out or ride out in a marina and aren't a full time cruiser, I think this is a consideration.


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

Minnewaska said:


> They weigh less and wind can get under the bridge deck.


I wonder if that is what happened to the one in the video I posted. According to the skipper they were in approx 30knt winds with reefed sails, when a large gust overturned the catamaran. I have to admit it is a strange story.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I would think/hope it would take more than just a 30 knot wind to flip. Sea state probably had something to do with it. 

Nevertheless, if a hull comes up, there would seem to be a lot more windage to work with.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

From what i read they were sailing reefed in the 30's were hit by a squal and a crew member observed just over 60 knots before the boat flipped. Lots of boats would flip or be knocked down with a jib and double reefed main in 60 knots. This was a performance cruiser, not some lumbering condomaran.

A lot of the charter/cruising oriented cats are engineered to dismast prior to flipping due to wind. Dismasting sucks, but its preferable to casize by a good margin and a many monos lose their rigs in a 360.

This is part of the challenge of the multi hull hyperbole, cats are just as subject to design compromise as monos.


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## smj (Jun 27, 2009)

The chances of a cruising Catamaran flipping are about the same as a cruising monohull sinking, pick your poison.


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

smj said:


> The chances of a cruising Catamaran flipping are about the same as a cruising monohull *rolling*, pick your poison.


There, fixed that for you. Catamarans are no less susceptible to overturn than anything else.

Here was one from last summer here in my neck of the woods. Winds were 25kts that day, and they were about 8miles offshore:

3 Rescued After Catamaran Capsizes Near Marina del Rey | KTLA


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

Another 40ft flipped in "winds of 35kts" last fall:

UPDATE: Crew safe after boat flips at*Bundeena | St George & Sutherland Shire Leader


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

In 2016 this Sunsail capsized - the three crew were never found:

http://www.2oceansvibe.com/2016/01/25/capsized-catamaran-found-42-nm-off-cape-agulhas-video-photos/


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

Gunboat G4 cruiser capsize: Breaking News: New Gunboat G4 Catamaran Capsizes In St. Barths Race - Ocean Of News


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I definitely wouldnt want to be out on deck when one of those big cats flipped. Unfortunately, there are sailing tasks that do require you to be outside from time to time.


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

10 metere catamaran capsized in 2 meter waves?: https://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Catamaran-capsizes-three-dead-20060826


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## smj (Jun 27, 2009)

Lazerbrains said:


> There, fixed that for you. Catamarans are no less susceptible to overturn than anything else.
> 
> Here was one from last summer here in my neck of the woods. Winds were 25kts that day, and they were about 8miles offshore:
> 
> 3 Rescued After Catamaran Capsizes Near Marina del Rey | KTLA


No need to fix something that isn't broken. I stand by my quote.

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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

So other than demonstrating Lazer can google the phrase 'catamaran capsize' what has this thread proved?


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## smj (Jun 27, 2009)

chall03 said:


> So other than demonstrating Lazer can google the phrase 'catamaran capsize' what has this thread proved?


And out of those googled, from I can see only one was a cruising Catamaran and it capsized in an Indian Ocean cyclone.
The information I posted came from Lloyd's of London insurance, surely they are in the statistics business and should be a good source. 
I have nothing against monohulls and have owned a couple. I also did extensive research before buying our first cruising Catamaran and consider either a monohull or Catamaran built for the purpose of bluewater cruising to both be seaworthy vessels.

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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

smj said:


> And out of those googled, from I can see only one was a cruising Catamaran and it capsized in an Indian Ocean cyclone.
> The information I posted came from Lloyd's of London insurance, surely they are in the statistics business and should be a good source.
> I have nothing against monohulls and have owned a couple. I also did extensive research before buying our first cruising Catamaran and consider either a monohull or Catamaran built for the purpose of bluewater cruising to both be seaworthy vessels.


They were all cruising cats but one in my examples. It is painfully easy to find examples of racers capsizing or pitchpoling.

I would like to see your statistics if you have them. Don't mistake me for a fundamentalist.


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## smj (Jun 27, 2009)

Lazerbrains said:


> They were all cruising cats but one in my examples. It is painfully easy to find examples of racers capsizing or pitchpoling.
> 
> I would like to see your statistics if you have them. Don't mistake me for a fundamentalist.


The first one is a 27' something out of California. Doesn't say what type so I'm guessing maybe an outboard driven power cat. 
There's also the 33'er in SA that had 11 people on it and was launched at a beach club, doesn't say what type. 
The cat that flipped in Australia was racing in what turned out to be gusts over 50. It started life as a Rogers 36 was extended to a 40' then cut in half and extended to 50'. I'm sure it maintained the same beam as when it was 36' but probably carried a lot more sail area, it was a racing catamaran.
The Gunboat was racing in the Caribbean when it capsized. It's a foiling catamaran so definitely a racer and not a cruiser.
The last was a Leopard 44 that was on a delivery from SA to Thailand. Last word was it was dealing with a cyclone. It capsized and all were lost so no info on why, but yes you could call that a cruising Catamaran. It was also found a year later still floating.

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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

I still would like to see your statistics from Lloyds - do you have those?

Incidentally, the gunboat G4 is advertised as a cruiser despite the fact if is a foiling catamaran.


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## smj (Jun 27, 2009)

Lazerbrains said:


> I still would like to see your statistics from Lloyds - do you have those?
> 
> Incidentally, the gunboat G4 is advertised as a cruiser despite the fact if is a foiling catamaran.


No I don't. Those statistics were given to me over the phone by a Lloyds agent. Here's an interesting link to a study done by a sailor who worked for the NTSB. https://www.ssca.org/forum/viewtopi...y&sid=5473e14a5f264aae4a2f3ad4c283be58#p33869
Pretty much mirrors what I stated.
Gunboat G4 a cruiser. I know they marketed it as a cruiser but would you trust a builder of a foiling monohull who told you it's a great boat to load the wife and kids on to travel the world. Common sense must prevail!
Can you show me what types of catamarans that flipped of California and SA are? Would be interesting.

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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

No, I wouldn't consider the gunboat as a cruiser - but the manufacturer does so what to think?
The boat that flipped outside of Pedro was a Gemini - it was halfway out to Catalina and winds were 25kts IIRC with small craft advisery. I was in the marina that day.

That link doesn't say much - just a forum conversation. I tried to pore over the USCG statistics this am to see if I could glean anything, but they don't differentiate between monos and multis in the statistics. Interestingly, powerboats have the overwhelming majority of fatalities.


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## smj (Jun 27, 2009)

Lazerbrains said:


> No, I wouldn't consider the gunboat as a cruiser - but the manufacturer does so what to think?
> 
> The boat that flipped outside of Pedro was a Gemini - it was halfway out to Catalina and winds were 25kts IIRC with small craft advisery. I was in the marina that day.
> 
> That link doesn't say much - just a forum conversation. I tried to pore over the USCG statistics this am to see if I could glean anything, but they don't differentiate between monos and multis in the statistics. Interestingly, powerboats have the overwhelming majority of fatalities.


Gemini built a few different models but none as small as 27'.
On edit, we have owned 2 Gemini's and wouldn't consider them a safe ocean going boat. No doubt they are tender and there have been a few that have capsized.
The link says plenty. It was a statement written by a former NTSB employee using Lloyds as a guide for his investigation. It's what he did for a living.

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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

smj said:


> Gemini built a few different models but none as small as 27'.
> On edit, we have owned 2 Gemini's and wouldn't consider them a safe ocean going boat. No doubt they are tender and there have been a few that have capsized.


I believe it was 30'. Not sure why the report says 27.
What about the Gemini makes them worse than others?

And I'm sorry, but linking to a forum conversation is hearsay. I would like to see actual statistics.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I am a life long multi hull enthusiast and currently a multi hull sailor and I don't see any problem with this thread.

The truth is most catamarans do remain inverted after a capsize and some catamarans are more susceptible to capsize than others. I believe this thread was in response to the catamaran marketing info being applied to the Oyster thread, so why not have a discussion about some of the potential draw backs of catamarans including why some are more susceptible to capsize than others?

Lazer, to your question about Geminis, they have quite narrow beams. About 14 feet, which is comparable to many modern similar length monos that do have keels. That narrow beam results in a bit of tenderness. It's not that they are worse though because a Gemini can park in a regular mono slip. The tenderness makes them less than ideal for long Ocean passages. In the same sense that Atlantic's have encountered a few capsizes due to their powerful rigs and performance characteristics.

Some of the heavier, beamier (slower) cruising cats can be pretty stable platforms.

The problem is, people need to be armed with knowledge, not dogma to make the distinction between the advantages and disadvantages of the many different catamaran designs as well as how they compare to different monohull designs.

I think somebody mentioned fibreglass mono at high latitudes. Imagine the potential challenges of operating a fibreglass cat in pack ice?


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## Boston Charter Boat (Jan 24, 2017)

Anything that will flip a cat will flood a monohull and that 15000 pounds of lead goes nowhere but down. Cats stay flat, float if flodded and realistically are incredibly stable. I don't have to lash down my pots and pans. My wine glass stays on the table and I don't eat out if a bowl. I have an 84 prout quest 33 that has circumnavagated 3 times. The boat handles much more than I can. PS it moves pretty fast too. Had 12 knots out of it 200 miles off the Carolinas when I brought it up from Fla 3 weeks ago.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Have always liked the Prouts. Particularly the 39. Liked the concept of a small high aspect main with two roller furling jibs for mom and pop cruising. Think it’s unfortunate the current crop of multis have gone to very large square head mains with difficult access to them given the lay out of the deck. Prout was bought out by Broad Blue and even they fell into this trend. 

Like daggerboards on a cat. Yes, I understand they add complexity, another service point and site for breakage. Still they aid weatherliness. One of key safety features of a multi is the ability to skate down the face of a wave and not trip on its appendages. Fixed keels decrease this ability. I think designs such as Outremer and Catana in the 50-60’ range are among the best for ocean cruising. However access to ownership is limited due to initial cost and annual budget. Have several friends on those boats or similar. In spite of the contrary voice on this site annual expense and difficulty docking have caused us to hold off. Not risk of capsize.


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## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

You have to weigh whether the heal on a mono-hull and the scary moment of a knockdown then self righting along with what can happen if you ignore keel or centerboard issues until after they fall off is a bigger issue to you than being able to react fast enough to prevent a sudden unexpected wind burst from knocking over or pitch pooling a catamaran turning it turtle.

A mono-hull will usually recover from a knockdown and if properly maintained will never experience a keel falling off while even a new sailing catamaran in perfect condition can get turned turtle by a sudden wind event and unless its a beach cat will usually be a total loss.

We in recent history had two turtlings of larger sailing catamarans in the area and only one keel loss and the keel loss was on a really cheap poorly maintained boat run aground at night by someone entering a pass known to be shallower than the draft of their vessel at slack tide when they were coming in so locally its one keel loss to two turtled and lost Ocean Sailing Catamarans.

Personally I will stick with the mono-hull since our weather can change suddenly with little to absolutely no advanced warning so that conditions that can knock down a big sailing catamaran are more likely to occur here.


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## Seaman_3rdClass (Jul 3, 2014)

I don't know about that. I've sailed charter cats in the Carib (i.e., underpowered) and things were flying around due to the cat (a Bali 4.3) falling into wave troughs and riding up on crests. And it wasn't even a storm, just a decent blow with some 'confused' seas. Good thing we didn't take a serious wave over the bow with those deep, poorly draining picnic areas in the front.


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

I have sailed both and in the right or should I say wrong conditions both can get slammed and stuff will get spread all over the cabin if not stored properly. 
Facts are still there if a Cat goes over it is done, if a mono goes over the chances of it righting itself are quite a bit better then a Cat 
being flipped over by a wind gust in a cat is going to be it for the cat, being flipped or knocked down for a mono is not the end of the boat.


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## jppp (Jul 13, 2008)

Wait. I thought you just stand on the leeward daggerboard and lean out on the hiking line. She'll pop right over. Make sure to ease the mainsheet.

yeah I know.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

overbored said:


> I have sailed both and in the right or should I say wrong conditions both can get slammed and stuff will get spread all over the cabin if not stored properly.
> Facts are still there if a Cat goes over it is done, if a mono goes over the chances of it righting itself are quite a bit better then a Cat
> being flipped over by a wind gust in a cat is going to be it for the cat, being flipped or knocked down for a mono is not the end of the boat.


Why do we keep saying that? A capsized cat can be recovered, and a capsized mono sometimes goes glug-glug-glug. If it is truly knocked down and rolled, it often comes up with no mast and is abandoned. I guess that depends on how you look at it.

This boat was knocked down, the companionway was open, and 30 seconds later it was on the bottom. Ballast is like that. Not rare at all. But I do not consider this to be a characteristic of monohulls, which are on the whole, quite safe.

And before someone says "that was a sport boat," remember that the Atlantic cats are quite powered up. Apples and apples.


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## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

I get spoiled sailing mono-hulls with closed cell positive flotation. No glug-glug-glugging allowed here. I know you give up storage but I can live with that.

Yes a lighter beach or sport cat can be righted however once you get into the multi-ton ocean cruising catamarans your not going to hike out and right them even if you have a crew of 10 people. 
For example an ocean catamaran such as the OUTREMER 5X is over 14 tons and the crew of 2 to 4 people usually on board them is not going to be able to right one that's been turtled.

On an overturned catamaran in the Gulf you have to be high enough and centered on one of the hulls afterwards hanging on tight as the Bull Sharks will try to grab you and pull you off.

Its still personal choice and you have to chose what fits where you sail and your definition of acceptable risk. If we did not accept risk to some degree we would not be out on the water in a sailboat anyways.


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## Boston Charter Boat (Jan 24, 2017)

You know I have no roll bars on my little z3 convertible. If I flip it I believe I have other problems to worry about.


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## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

Boston Charter Boat said:


> You know I have no roll bars on my little z3 convertible. If I flip it I believe I have other problems to worry about.


I have a very substantial frame mounted roll bar on my little Spider convertible. I avoid flipping it as I do with my boat however its nice to know that with both I will be better off than most others if I do have an event.

I truly do not want to recreate the Albatross Incident in any way.


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## mrWinter (May 2, 2018)

Cruising cats can't self right, but can they be righted at all? Are there any techniques to try and right a flipped cat (cruising cat, not a beach cat)? I'm imagining rigging some kind of trip line from a drogue or sea anchor to some point on the rig or hull to induce it to flip with the next big roller or something. I guess the boat would need to be holding a steady orientation in the wind which may be unlikely. And I guess you'd have to do all this line work while all your lines, storage, and working bits are underwater, so seems like quite a long shot.


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## tschmidty (Sep 25, 2008)

I always wondered that. An inflatable bag at the top of the mast would do something but it would really depend on the forces needed to right it. You would do it end over end, but the fact is the mast would probably be gone. And once it went upright there is no water tight hold to trap air anymore so to be honest it would probably sink at that point.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

mrWinter said:


> Cruising cats can't self right, but can they be righted at all? Are there any techniques to try and right a flipped cat (cruising cat, not a beach cat)? I'm imagining rigging some kind of trip line from a drogue or sea anchor to some point on the rig or hull to induce it to flip with the next big roller or something. I guess the boat would need to be holding a steady orientation in the wind which may be unlikely. And I guess you'd have to do all this line work while all your lines, storage, and working bits are underwater, so seems like quite a long shot.


I did not say righted on the water, I said "recovered." I know of several that have been towed in and righted with a crane. Lots of damage, of course, and totaled by insurance, but not gone. Some have been repaired and are sailing. Some monohulls are raised and repaired.


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

Yes, but you are unlikely to find a crane during a passage. I like the thread drift towards figuring out a way to right using a sea anchor or something similar. If someone could figure out a technique/device it could become an important piece of emergency cruising gear.


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## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

Didn't someone have some inflatable pontoons or closed cell foam belting for a while that they bolted to the outer topsides of mono-hulls to give them flotation and prevent them from going under? The closed cell foam belting was also suppose to help prevent the boats from going completely over. 

I have only lately seen the closed cell foam belting on rough water canoes and kayaks but nothing larger however Walker Bay still might make inflatable pontoons for some of their hard dinghy's making them somewhat like a RIB.


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## Boston Charter Boat (Jan 24, 2017)

Guys.. stop... You are not going to flip a cruising cat... These are not hobies. Too heavy, too wide and too stable. Just not gonna happen. Don't sail in 30 foot seas and enjoy.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Currently vetting crew for the fall salty dawg to Antigua. Of interest so far those on the top of my list have all been in 20-30’ seas as confirmed by their references. I have( scared the pants off me) apparently with wind against wave while crossing the Gulf Stream it happens. Even with looking at and having a weather routersooner or later given all weather is local it will eventually happen to you. So the argument that that you shouldn’t sail in those seas is quite true but your boat should be able to handle them. Mono or cat doesn’t matter. Both can be good seaboats. Both need to be sailed properly with proper heavy weather equipment.
Of further interest is the number who say sure I’ll sail with you but my first choice is a cat. They want to try a passage on one and see what it’s like. I think those who get a berth on a 50 something cat designed with passage making in mind will be well pleased. Those on boats designed with the charter market in mind not so much. I discount them ass potential crew except those I’ve done prior passages with and liked. I understand their interest but want their head fully in the game on this passage. Sailing is about what’s happening now.so being fully present is key.


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## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

Boston Charter Boat said:


> Guys.. stop... You are not going to flip a cruising cat... These are not hobies. Too heavy, too wide and too stable. Just not gonna happen. Don't sail in 30 foot seas and enjoy.


Tell that to the sailors from Michigan that recently within the past few months flipped a 34 foot 8,000 lb Gemini Cruising Cat in the Gulf of Mexico. A wind gust caught them and pitch pooled the cat over the bow and then it was game over. Seas weren't that bad but they waited too long and didn't get the sails reefed fast enough and in a blink of an eye as the stern rose up and passed over the bow one of them was pitched by their safety lines over the mast when the boat flipped and then got caught in the rigging under the turtled cruising cat. They paid for misjudging the weather, along with procrastinating and almost lost their lives. The mono-hulls out in the same event just gave way to weather helm, spilled the wind in a partial knockdown and went on their way. Yes they bear a lot of the blame especially for the injuries from not cleaning the hulls before they departed the Florida Keys when it was on the hard for inspection. They spent quite a while in the hospital being treated for the injuries from sitting on the barnacles for over a day.


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## smj (Jun 27, 2009)

SeaStar58 said:


> Tell that to the sailors from Michigan that recently within the past few months flipped a 34 foot 8,000 lb Gemini Cruising Cat in the Gulf of Mexico. A wind gust caught them and pitch pooled the cat over the bow and then it was game over. Seas weren't that bad but they waited too long and didn't get the sails reefed fast enough and in a blink of an eye as the stern rose up and passed over the bow one of them was pitched by their safety lines over the mast when the boat flipped and then got caught in the rigging under the turtled cruising cat. They paid for misjudging the weather, along with procrastinating and almost lost their lives. The mono-hulls out in the same event just gave way to weather helm, spilled the wind in a partial knockdown and went on their way. Yes they bear a lot of the blame especially for the injuries from not cleaning the hulls before they departed the Florida Keys when it was on the hard for inspection. They spent quite a while in the hospital being treated for the injuries from sitting on the barnacles for over a day.


There have been quite a few Gemini's that have flipped, mainly because they have a 14' beam and are not that stable. In my opinion they are not an example of an ocean going seaworthy cruising cat.

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## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

smj said:


> There have been quite a few Gemini's that have flipped, mainly because they have a 14' beam and are not that stable. In my opinion they are not an example of an ocean going seaworthy cruising cat.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


And DBC along with many others. Its not just unique to the Gemini, which did not turtle due to its narrow beam in this event but pitch pooled stern over bow, with the point being that despite many saying its near to impossible for these multi-ton cats to get flipped they do flip way too regularly despite the fact they they are vastly outnumbered by mono-hulls. Just a simple leak or taking a wave into an open hatch on one hull of a cruising cat, that would be just an inconvenience or annoyance to be pumped out along with closing the hatch and mayhaps require repair, clamp/fitting tightened next time in port on a mono-hull, can cause even a 70 foot ocean cat to become unbalanced enough to flip.

It is what it is and neither is 100% perfect.


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## smj (Jun 27, 2009)

SeaStar58 said:


> And DBC along with many others. Its not just unique to the Gemini, which did not turtle due to its narrow beam in this event but pitch pooled stern over bow, with the point being that despite many saying its near to impossible for these multi-ton cats to get flipped they do flip way too regularly despite the fact they they are vastly outnumbered by mono-hulls. Just a simple leak or taking a wave into an open hatch on one hull of a cruising cat, that would be just an inconvenience or annoyance to be pumped out along with closing the hatch and mayhaps require repair, clamp/fitting tightened next time in port on a mono-hull, can cause even a 70 foot ocean cat to become unbalanced enough to flip.
> 
> It is what it is and neither is 100% perfect.


The chances of flipping a cruising cat are extremely rare, about the same chances of sinking in your monohull. I'm sure if the cruising cat was so unsafe there would be no insurer that would take the risk, but strangely enough a cruising cats premiums are no higher than a cruising monos and I'm sure the Marine insurance brokers know the stats on Multihull safety. In fact I was once told by a Lloyds of London Marine insurance broker that they considered a catamaran to be a better risk than a monohull. 
As far as open hatches are concerned, isn't that how The Pride Of Baltimore sank?

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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

^^^ All other things being equal, a narrower beam cat may pitch pole before a wider beam boat. A cat may not to be sailing perfectly flat on the water (in capsize conditions) and may not be sailing perfectly square to the wind. 

Running down wind (which is often more broad reach then DDW on a cat), the leeward hull will be both the lower hull and the leading hull. As the leading hull, it will be the first to hit the trough and being lower more prone to stuffing, potentially resulting in a rapid deceleration leading to pitch pole (potentially not perfectly parallel to the centre line).

A relatively wider beam cat will have a longer lever arm, resulting in relatively greater righting force in the transverse axis. By countering the transverse heeling, the wider beam could reduce the risk of capsize.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Above is true as it’s simple physics. So how do you express this risk best numerically.? What bean/length ratio is acceptable? What righting arm? What is the minimum length at waterline? How far back should the foredeck be? How high? How wide the hulls? Acceptable access to machinery especially engines? Strength of rigging and attachments? SA and ease of reefing? Etc. etc.

Just like there’s good, fair and not so much ocean going monos same is true for multi hulls. Difference is with multi hulls is size really does matter. There are 26-28’ monos that are excellent seaboats. There aren’t any that size multis that are due to simple physics. I continue to contend >45’, narrow hulls (especially forward), high bridgedeck starting a goodly distance aft, lightly loaded, internal or protected access to engines and mechanical systems, adequate beam are reasonable things to asses in judging a multi. Sure there are large cats that are questionable seaboats and some in the 37-39’ range that are good but the rough parameters offered may be a reasonable starting point.
So rather than piss and moan on both sides of this discussion it would be nice to delineate what makes for a good ocean going cat or tri. What specific boats demonstrate those features?


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

outbound said:


> ... So rather than piss and moan on both sides of this discussion it would be nice to delineate what makes for a good ocean going cat or tri. What specific boats demonstrate those features?


Folks can't agree on what a blue water mono looks like. Same problem here.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Pdq you’re correct but at least we have some starting points.
Both JeffH and BobP have kindly shared insights as to their educated opinions. Although antiquated Ferenc Mate gives us the history of prior thought concerning this as does Perry’s boat and so many others.
I’m ignorant of equivalent texts, or sources for this subject as regards multi hulls other then NA blogs, builders promo and discussions I’ve had with fellow cruisers on multis. Can you offer places to look?


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

I misspoke above. Should be desirable and undesirable and editor was John Rousmaniere. But there are so many similar books concerning monos even in recent years. Which are the “bible” or bibles for multi hulls?


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## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

Bottom line again is that they do pitch and flip and when they do they require intervention to right them. That is an inescapable fact.

They are not as impervious to going turtle as some would want you to believe since there are regularly news reports about cruising cats turned upside down. 

At hull lengths under 30 feet would one then consider a mono with positive flotation a safer boat than a cruising cat? When some talk of stable impossible to flip cruising cats are they only talking about 55 to 60 foot boats or only boats by certain builders? At first all were stated to be impossible to flip then Gemini were contended to be a rare exception but then there are instances where DBC's and others have flipped so are all those exceptions and if so how many are there to beware of?

What is the mast height to beam and length ratio for a cat to be so stable as to be impossible to flip as some have stated?

The ratio of beam to hull length, etc for a mono-hull to be stable has been known for thousands of years. Even Noahs Ark in the Bible is laid out to that formula.

The discussion has come to the point where its now clear that not all Cruising Cats are equal and that one can't honestly say that all Cruising Cats are impossible to flip but only that some well designed ones with a good beam to length ration, which is currently an unknown value in this discussion, are safer than those that do not have a good beam to length ratio.


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## smj (Jun 27, 2009)

outbound said:


> Above is true as it's simple physics. So how do you express this risk best numerically.? What bean/length ratio is acceptable? What righting arm? What is the minimum length at waterline? How far back should the foredeck be? How high? How wide the hulls? Acceptable access to machinery especially engines? Strength of rigging and attachments? SA and ease of reefing? Etc. etc.
> 
> Just like there's good, fair and not so much ocean going monos same is true for multi hulls. Difference is with multi hulls is size really does matter. There are 26-28' monos that are excellent seaboats. There aren't any that size multis that are due to simple physics. I continue to contend >45', narrow hulls (especially forward), high bridgedeck starting a goodly distance aft, lightly loaded, internal or protected access to engines and mechanical systems, adequate beam are reasonable things to asses in judging a multi. Sure there are large cats that are questionable seaboats and some in the 37-39' range that are good but the rough parameters offered may be a reasonable starting point.
> 
> So rather than piss and moan on both sides of this discussion it would be nice to delineate what makes for a good ocean going cat or tri. What specific boats demonstrate those features?


I can think of a few smaller catamarans that have a pretty respectable reputation for being sea boats. The first cruising catamaran to round Cape Horn was a 30' Bill OBrien designed Oceanic. The Heavenly Twins 26 have a couple of circumnavigations under their belts and many ocean crossings. The Iroquois 30 though a tender cat has also circumnavigated a few times. Endless Prouts from 37' down probably have more safe sea miles traveled than any other production built boat. The Catalac line has produced over 600 cats without a mishap and the majority of those were between 27 and 34'. The Australian built Seawind 1000, many sea miles never flipped or dismasted, I'm sure I could go on and on. Let's face it, most of the time the smaller boats can take much more of a beating than their owners.

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## smj (Jun 27, 2009)

SeaStar58 said:


> Bottom line again is that they do pitch and flip and when they do they require intervention to right them. That is an inescapable fact.
> 
> They are not as impervious to going turtle as some would want you to believe since there are regularly news reports about cruising cats turned upside down.
> 
> ...


Monohulls sink and I'm pretty sure there is no intervention to bring them back.
You see news reports of cats upside down as there is a visual story, not so with a sunken monohull.
No catamaran is impossible to flip, a well designed one is improbable.
I'm pretty sure the ballasted monohull has only been around since the late 1800's where the Multihull has been around much longer.
I think your last paragraph sums it up well. A well designed catamaran or monohull can make for a safe offshore cruising boat. From my understanding to little beam on a cat leads to flipping and to much beam leads to pichpoling. The designer has to find the sweet spot. So many other factors involved such as displacement, sail area, center of gravity and effort etc. way above my pay scale.

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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Thanks for educating me about smaller cats. I did have the opportunity to sail a Prout and was favorably impressed. I did a Newport Bermuda on a 35’ tri and felt quite safe. I was thinking of current production offerings that a current sailor might have the opportunity to sail when I wrote that post.
Yes, even the wizard of Bristol was enamored by them until they were banned from racing.
I disagree with your statement about ballasted monos. They’ve been around since rocks were put into bilges.


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