# Who found Australia?? Was it the Portuguese?



## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Well Cook wasn't for sure&#8230;that's a fact.

When my good old friend Andrew (that's TDW for you guys), came over, I couldn't understand why he was so interested in Portuguese naval history, and our boats, to the point where he spent a whole day at the Portuguese Navy Museum (museu da Marinha)..

He also brought me a gift, that now, a few months later I had the pleasure of finally enjoying to the fullest, only because of my lack of time....

the gift?? A book by a known Australian Journalistic investigator writer called Peter Trickett..the book is called "Beyond Capricorn"...let me tell you, not because I am Portuguese and in love with Naval history, especially that of my Country, richer than any other country's history...but probably the best book I have read in many years.

In this book, Peter Trickett explains how, in 1522, that's 250 years before Cook, and 90 years before the Dutch (1606), a Portuguese Captain called Cristovao Mendonca, had sailed around Australia and New Zealand, and mapped the land he called Terra Java. He took with him a Nau (Carrack), a Caravel, a bergantim and an Indian boat called a Prau. All but the Carrack sank, and the crews probably stayed in Australia, and mixed with the arborigines. (see later in this thread).

Peter Tricket seriously investigated this, when once by accident he stumbled upon the Vallard Atlas, dated 1547, now in a collection in the Huntington Library in Los Angeles, CA, whose features seriously resembled that of the Australian coast line.

The original Portuguese map was lost, or not, but in 1547, a French made Atlas called the Vallard Atlas, made in Dieppe, was made and all the words in it are Portuguese, as can be seen in that map. CLICK HERE), a former captain with Vasco da Gama (found India in 1499), was either a traitor or a spy and seeks refuge in France in or around 1525&#8230;hence the maps with the coast of Australia being made in France.

By the way, at the time, they made the maps with the south on top, because the Portuguese sailors sailed south first, out of Portugal, so when you google these maps, turn them upside down)

The finding of Australia by Portuguese is surrounded by mystery and political plots and secrecy.

One of the reasons it is believed that Terra Java (Australia) was never mentioned is because of the treaty of Tordesillas, (click here) signed in 1494, where the World was divided in two parts, one given to the Portuguese, the other to the Spanish, (curiously, with that division - see photo bellow - Portugal kept Brasil and the part where gold was found 6 years later in 1500, meaning Portugal already knew Brasil was there before Pedro Alvares Cabral officially found it in 1500 !!!). If the Portuguese claimed having been in Terra Java, they would be in the Spanish half, and had to pay the Spanish for violating the treaty..

Photo bellow shows the red line Tordesillas treaty and clearly shows how Portugal kept Brasil in 1494, when it was only found in 1500. The bellow map is at the entrance to the Museu da Marinha in Lisbon.










Was it impossible for the 1520 Portuguese to have sailed to Australia?? NOT AT ALL, they were already in where is now Timor and Indonesia, a mere 300 miles from Australia..Certainly a captain that sailed all around the World from Portugal to India, China and Indonesia, wouldn't mind a few more miles and see what was there..

Another possibility for the maps ending up in France, was the fact that French, instead of discovering or setting sail (the first French expedition to the Pacific is pretty pathetic and ridiculous, with the Captains' retreating to their cabins to write poems, and play music, when the ships were either attacked or in storms..this is true!!..any way)&#8230;resorted to sail around the North Africa coast, and acting as corsairs or pirates would raid the Portuguese Carracks and caravels coming from India (typical)&#8230;they actually had orders to invade Portuguese ships just for the maps..this way, maybe the maps were stolen and ended up in France..
I strongly recommend if you can, read this book&#8230;as it is..Pretty amazing.

The boats they used were the Carrack (NAU in Portuguese), click here, the Caravel, and the Bergantim (that later the English used also hence the English Term Brigantine or Brig), which was in its early stages almost a barge with square sails, derived from the Mediterranian sea.

Models in the Museu da Marinha (photos by TDW)

Nau or Carrack Click Here perfect to haul cargo and as Admiral ships. But deep draft, and poor at pointing.










The Caravela (Caravel in ENGLISH) a shallow draft ship, perfect to explore coastal features 
CLICK HERE










and bellow a real Caravela replica, for size is a good example.



















One can only imagine what it was like..back then they could find whwere they were longitudinally, North / South, but East West, was only done by estimate using boat speed.

The Portuguese boats were at the time, the fastest boats in the Worls, averaging 5 to 6 knots..

A curiosity, a league, (today almost 3 NM), back then was a measure, not in distance as we know it now, but how much "an average sail boat could sail in one hour", and was around 5 miles...funny IMS racing is almost like this...distance in time for rating...coincidence? maybe not..

Vasco da Gama found India 1499









Pedro Alvares Cabral (official founder of Brasil 1500)









Hope you enjoy a little history, although stubbornly denied by Australian Orthodox (read English butt kissers) academics, after reading the book..no questions are left&#8230;the Portuguese were in fact there&#8230;
They have canons, vestiges of stone constructions, aborigines that called Cook saying "venka", in Portuguese we say "vem ca", means come here, strong muscular aborigine tribes in North West Australia (the Brits wiped them out, by the way), that are whiter and have typical European physiognomy (remember the boats that I said sank there? Where did the crews swim to?? Not Portugal for sure..and even a fishing lead sinker carbon dated to 1500, and they just blindly refuse to accept..one wonders why&#8230;even a tribe that sang a Portuguese shanty&#8230;

None of this diminishes Cook&#8230;what are they afraid of???

Please&#8230;see if you can read the book, then come here..it's so amazing

Sorry for the long post..if this thread evolves, I have more to tell..

Thank you

Alex

INTERESTING LINKS

HERE

HERE

HERE

HERE

Original Vallard Atlas photo

Huntigton Library, Los Angles

Portuguese map dated 1594 (see on top right corner), that shows Java in the left lower corner, altough not exactly correct as far as shape goes..but none the less, pretty amazing, considering.


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## merc2dogs (Jun 5, 2004)

Very interesting Giu, I've always had an intrest in history, and ever since I was a kid I've been fascinated with maps.

Ken.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

What is interesting is that when you look at the maps, they do not resemble Australia, then...you turn them up side down, and rotate a section 90 degrees, and BINGO...

Why rotate?? The Portuguese maps were called Portolans, were made in goat skin on a wood frame and were very small..when the French guy drew them, he didn't know how they all conected, and simply drew them..

Peter Trickett in his books shows how rotating the sections of equal size, one gets not only Australia, but also New Zealand..


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

I think there are many historical facts that have just simply been lost through time, either not recorded or the records lost. Amazing.


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## Idiens (Jan 9, 2007)

Did the Portuguese get there before the Aborigines? Wow!


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Idiens said:


> Did the Portuguese get there before the Aborigines? Wow!


Idiens, G'day. Trust all is well with you.

Ref the Blackfellas......there are actually two relatively distinct groups. Those who comprise the various tribes that make up the mainland Aboriginal population and then there is the Tasmanian.

While no one is ever going to get to the bottom of it, it would appear that the Tasmanians were the first known inhabitants of Terra Australis and they were in turn pushed south by the incoming second wave. Eventually of course Tasmania was cut off from the mainland and there was little or no contact between the two groups for many thousands of years.

As to whether or not the mainland population is partly a result of later migration and/or interbreeding between the two groups I have no idea.

In support of this argument is the animal population of Tasmania that has of course many species once found on the mainland and now only found or at least recently found in Tassie. Fossil records of the animals now known as Tasmanian Devil and the now extinct Tasmanian Tiger have been found on the mainland.

So who discovered Australia ? That is surely one of the great inponderables. All we can really be certain of is that when Blackfella met Whitefella, Blackfella got the wrong end of the stick.

What I can say however is that my cousins were here before any of you upstart bipeds.....










Giant carnivorous Wombat.......bwahahaha......(from National Geographic)

<major_cutline>Some ancient giant wombats (above, an artist's rendering of an animal with its young) weighed as much as a pickup truck and stood as tall as a person. Others were much smaller, about the weight of a compact car.

A new study suggests that-despite their vastly different sizes-these marsupials all belonged to the same species, and that gender accounted for the size gaps.

_Illustration by DEA PICTURE LIBRARY_</major_cutline>


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Idiens said:


> Did the Portuguese get there before the Aborigines? Wow!


My mother allways said, if you have nothing good to say..better say nothing...

No one said they were the first there, off course the Aborigines were there first...


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

I really have new found respect for the people of Portugual. Despite their early finding "Terra Java" long before any other Whitefella's they had the good sense, as early as the 15th century, to know to get the hell out of there and not tell anyone they found it!!


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

T34C said:


> I think there are many historical facts that have just simply been lost through time, either not recorded or the records lost. Amazing.


And to make things worse, the NAtional Archives were totally lost in the 1755 Lisbon earth quake (the biggest in history), and the gigantic tsunami that engulfed Lisbon..after that, the plague killed the whole country, but a few...it was the begining of the delcine of a vast empire, now tottaly lost..the last "outpost" was MAcau, returned to China in 2000, as the 500 year old rent contract expired (Hong Kong was only 99 years)...

So all records etc. were lost..sadly


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

isn't the port side of the boat named for the portugese?

I read that they discovered sheep shagging too. is that true alex?


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

xort said:


> I read that they discovered sheep shagging too. is that true alex?


Thank you for the positive smart comment.


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

sorry, thought this was in 'off topic'


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Glad you liked the book Alex. I certainly did.

To date I know of no major criticisms of Trickett's book. Not everyone agrees with him of course but it's not as if he has been pilloried by the historical community. Personally I find his theories persuasive.

Regarding the business of turning the map, it should be emphasised that it is only one small section of the entire map that needs realigning to make it all look good. 

The Porguese were most certainly around the West Australian coast very early on indeed and it does seem strange that they would have been unaware of Australia. The fact that that didn't trumpet the news of their find is not, as Alex explains , all that surprising. Similarly the Basques were thought to have been fishing off the Grand Banks many years before Columbus arrived and they also kept their presence a secret, in that case for commercial reasons.

Interesting stuff. Australia could well have ended up being Portuguese, English or French.

Again as Alex says none of this diminishes Cook. Cook has never been considered to be the first European to find Australia. The first arrival that everyone agrees on is Willem Janszoon in 1606 and others such as ABel Tasman and William Dampier were here well before Cook. Cook's achievement is that he was the first to suggest that the place was fit for habitation. Well a penal colony anyway !!

The Europeans were most definitely aware of Australia if only because the indigenous populations of (in particular) what is now Indonesia were trading with the Australian Aborigines.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Nice info....good read Giu!


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Well done, Alex and Andrew. Further attention on my part is certainly warranted.

(which Dutch ship was it that the Portagee followed again?) (g)


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

A man is proud of his countries very impressive early naval history. This is quite shocking and unusual!
I may not be quite as proud of my Scotch/Irish roots as they would involve the Vikings who also 'discovered' a bunch of places but were better at raping and pillaging than making maps.
The fact that history books are so often re-written makes me wonder about the authenticity of something called the Bible or for that matter the Koran. The Portuguese were quite intrepid and globe trotting early on in western history it is true. Sounds like an interesting read though.


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

CalebD said:


> I may not be quite as proud of my Scotch/Irish roots as they would involve the Vikings who also 'discovered' a bunch of places but were better at raping and pillaging than making maps.


Highly under valued skills.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

This is not new news: There was a book written one hundred and two years ago about it and I have read excerpts from it in other books.

It's out of copyright (NOTE TO CAM!) and can be freely read online:

The First Discovery of Australia and New Guinea


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## Idiens (Jan 9, 2007)

Giulietta said:


> My mother allways said, if you have nothing good to say..better say nothing...


But did you listen to her?

Not that I would want to question your national pride. The Portuguese were the European world's great explorers, in their time.

However, I find the arrogance of first finding things that others already occupy a European oddity. I wonder how the Chinese felt about being first discovered by the Europeans.


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## Idiens (Jan 9, 2007)

tdw said:


> What I can say however is that my cousins were here before any of you upstart bipeds.....


Greetings mighty Wombat.

With a species 150 000 years old, these bipeds probably discovered Australia several times, although they only recorded the last couple of thousand years of activity in any way.


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## SkywalkerII (Feb 20, 2008)

The history of "discovery" is a very interesting subject. Much of what is taught is questionable. Does anyone still believe Columbus discovered America? Oh, was Columbus Italian or Portuguese? There is evidence that the Americas were visited by people from Europe as early as 1000 BC. The Celts were a successful group, populating what is now England, Spain, France, Portugal, northern and west Africa before the rise of the Greeks or Romans. They apparent sailed to the "New World" 3000 years ago. Cocaine and tobacco have been found in Egyptian mummies from thousands of years ago - cocaine is only found in South America. The Phonecians are suspects in this trade. There is a lot of interesting info out there. 

Still, the centuries of modern European discovery are remarkable.

Just another thought.

SKywalker


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

aside from the looting & pillaging & raping; the real marvel is what they used to accomplish all this. We raise a fuss over going out for a day sail without life jackets, flares, throw rings, radios, GPS, paper charts, spare parts, etc.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

What TDW didn't mention is that the Tasmanian aborigines are all evolved from lost Portugese sailors...


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> What TDW didn't mention is that the Tasmanian aborigines are all evolved from lost Portugese sailors...


"Thank you for the positive smart comment."


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

I have a nautical Dictionary, When I see a term I don't know I look it up. You would be surprised how many Portuguese nautical terms are part of our daily language.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Like what???


bubb2 said:


> I have a nautical Dictionary, When I see a term I don't know I look it up. You would be surprised how many Portuguese nautical terms are part of our daily language.


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

bombas de trasfega


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## Delirious (Dec 16, 2001)

sailingdog said:


> Like what???


"Crap. Rats. Oh fudge. Dad-gum-it and Frarken grammer crassercrongle" are all nautical terms derived from the original Portugese.

As I understand it the Portugese also had an "illegal" fishing and whaling station on the mainland up at the Bay of Fundy many years Pre-Columbus that was forbidden by the pope and so they couldn't make it widely known. The whales had to be dragged to shore for processing back then.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

bubb2 said:


> I have a nautical Dictionary, When I see a term I don't know I look it up. You would be surprised how many Portuguese nautical terms are part of our daily language.


Yes, Mike, I know...I see that so many times, but it's hard to mention that here, as many would not believe.

We learn in school that the Port and Starbord (Port, or bombordo in portuguese) - meaning good side or port side- was because as they sailed south along the coast of Africa that was were land was, and the other side
was the side of the stars, Estibordo in portuguese..

The word Brigantine, for example, comes from Portuguese Bergatim, which derives from Berga, or Barga, which is a barge, with square sails.

Popa, meaning stern, 
proa, meaning bow
Mastro for Mast
Astrolabio
barque, comes from barca

and many more, but sometimes, the origin is either obscured or influenced by so many things...

Sometimes I ask you guys how do you say a certain nautical part, only to see you say it almost like in portuguese.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Delirious said:


> As I understand it the Portugese also had an "illegal" fishing and whaling station on the mainland up at the Bay of Fundy many years Pre-Columbus that was forbidden by the pope and so they couldn't make it widely known. The whales had to be dragged to shore for processing back then.


Delirious, can you show me more about this??

The reason for my asking is that there is a rare fishing boat in the Navy Museum, that is dated back to 1410, and it is said to be used in whaling in what is now St.Johns, Canada.

I wonder if what you said is really true...

Thanks


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## Stonehenge (Sep 3, 2008)

*Magnificent photos and history. Thanks for posting!*

Ya know....probably a more valid question might not be WHO, but WHY!  Of course, this question applies to Alaska or a multitude of other insane places people decide to live in. The question is best answered by that great scene in "True Grit." Rooster Cogburn falls off his horse drunk and, unable to move,says, "Let's camp here."

Nuff said.

Eric the landlocked.


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## Delirious (Dec 16, 2001)

"Port" is fairly recent in nautical terminology. Starrboard & larrboard are Northern European - the side you steer from (starboard) and the lee-board (external hung keel/board) was on the opposite side. Pulled up it served as a bumper - and you put the leeboard to port so your more delicate rudder was protected from the pilings.

Around WWI it was found "Starboard" and "Leeboard" sounded too much alike in the fog of battle with inductees who had no history or not much training on the water so leeboard became "Port".

"Astrolabe" is Greek. ;-)


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

That is why I used transfer pump as a example. TRANSFER is all most letter for letter.


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## Delirious (Dec 16, 2001)

Giulietta said:


> Delirious, can you show me more about this??
> 
> The reason for my asking is that there is a rare fishing boat in the Navy Museum, that is dated back to 1410, and it is said to be used in whaling in what is now St.Johns, Canada.
> 
> ...


I was serious (on that part).

I will dig it up and report back. I came across this a while back (National Geographic?) and I'll have to root around. I know Clive Cussler wrote this up but he takes some "historic liberties". Words like "Fundy" and "Labradore" were Basque or Portugese roots, I believe,


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Delirious said:


> "Port" is fairly recent in nautical terminology. Starrboard & larrboard are Northern European - the side you steer from (starboard) and the lee-board (external hung keel/board) was on the opposite side. Pulled up it served as a bumper - and you put the leeboard to port so your more delicate rudder was protected from the pilings.
> 
> Around WWI it was found "Starboard" and "Leeboard" sounded too much alike in the fog of battle with inductees who had no history or not much training on the water so leeboard became "Port".
> 
> "Astrolabe" is Greek. ;-)


Delirious, thanks. Indeed Astrolabe is a Greek word composed of Astro (stars) and labio (search)..it was brought to Portugal and Spain together with the compass, by the Moors during their occupation in 700 AC...

The Portuguese only improved the compass and made it a nautical tool by encapsulating in a bubble, as we have it today, so they could take it to sea and measure with accuracy..it was not a Portuguese invention, but perfected for, by.

The Portuguese words for Port and Starboard are now Bombordo (good side or side of the Port), and Estibordo (derives from Estrela Star in Portuguese)..

The English words I don't know where they come from.

I am enjoying this cultural exchange...really am, keep them coming, please


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## ckgreenman (Aug 22, 2008)

Very interesting thread. It's amazing the kinds of stuff people accomplished before the wonders of modern technology. 

Then again, back then sailing wasn't so much recreation as it was a necessity.


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## Delirious (Dec 16, 2001)

No problem. Glad to help the little country with all the roosters ( I visited in 1973). And who can forget Spencer Tracy as the Portuguese fisherman "Manuel" in the movie version of Rudyard Kipling's _Captains Courageous?_

Early Exploration: Newfoundland and Labrador Heritage

European Voyages of Exploration: The Portuguese Empire

Google up *Zuanne Pizzigano* (a Venetian cartographer who drew the Labrador/Newfoundland coast in 1424 and _*may*_ have had interactions with Henry the Navigator). Speculative - I can't find the map in question but he did get the Azores right.

'Course he was probably going from an old map my ancestors drew up after the disasterous attempt at trade a century prior. :laugher


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

mata-mata" and I thought it was original to the US Army.


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

Wasn't there a Portuguese prince who created a sailing/exploration school of sorts? Form my 6th grade history book, he was behind-the-scenes responsible for much of the discoveries down the cost of Africa. 

(I think he got his motivation to find a sea route to India from Marco Polo's book.)


Edited: corrected spelling of school, after the intense pressure from Giu in the next post.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Bene, yep..his name was Infante D. Henrique, (Prince Henry the Navigator for you)...Son of King John I. Altough he never navigated, really..

SEE HERE

He was a Templar Knight (Cavaleiro da Ordem de Cristo). The name school, is also sometimes confused with school, as the learning institution.

The school he formed, was a group of sailors and map makers, hence the name school...


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

I hate to break the news, but I believe the Chinese might have beat the Portuguese to it. Just because they aren't European doesn't mean they weren't first. 
There is mounting evidence they even discovered and mapped the America's before the Europeans.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Chuck, I also believe that they were in America and Eastern Europe, but all by land not sea.

Esqimos, American Indians etc. come to mind...as far as face phisionomy


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## SimonV (Jul 6, 2006)

Who found Austraila I DID  24 sep 2008


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

Good on ya Simon,


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Hey Simon...you surely did..yes you did....


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## ckgreenman (Aug 22, 2008)

SimonV said:


> Who found Austraila I DID  24 sep 2008


Yup. That's it. CASE CLOSED!!!!


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Recent phoographic evidence found deep inside a cave in the Estrela mountains of Portugal and released recently released under the Freedom of Information Act by the CIA conclusively proves that Portuguese Sailors also discovered the moon some years before America's so-called moon landing.








:laugher:laugher


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

What about the pictures of that face on Mars? They are now pointing to that as photographic evidence that Portugal has been there already!!


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

hey Cam
You should know... "Thank you for the positive smart comment."

Shame on you!
Alex, commence photoshopping


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Simon-

Do us a favor and kick all them aussies out and let us take it over...  After all, isn't that how you're supposed to act when conquering a new continent.  You can let Hartley18 and TDW stay as aborigines... 



SimonV said:


> Who found Austraila I DID  24 sep 2008


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

camaraderie said:


> Recent phoographic evidence found deep inside a cave in the Estrela mountains of Portugal and released recently released under the Freedom of Information Act by the CIA conclusively proves that Portuguese Sailors also discovered the moon some years before America's so-called moon landing.
> View attachment 2703
> 
> 
> :laugher:laugher


HEHEHE!

- CD


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

camaraderie said:


> discovered the moon some years before America's so-called moon landing.


Well...apparentely neither have the USA gone there either..and the Space program, was more German that American..was it not???

Zieg Heil??


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## ckgreenman (Aug 22, 2008)

Quote from the movie "The Right Stuff"

"Our Germans are better than their Germans"


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## Idiens (Jan 9, 2007)

Germany didn't exist when the Portuguese were discovering the world, colonising the moon, etc..


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## Delirious (Dec 16, 2001)

Giulietta said:


> Well...apparentely neither have the USA gone there either..and the Space program, was more German that American..was it not???
> 
> Zieg Heil??


I'm sure Robert Goddard would be surprised to hear that.

But then he's been dead since 1945 so it would be a surprise if he heard anything.



> In 1926 he launched the first liquid-fuel rocket, using a mixture of gasoline and liquid oxygen. In 1929 he sent up the first instrument-carrying rocket, which bore a barometer, a thermometer, and a small camera.





> Goddard's work was virtually ignored in his own country during his lifetime. His rocket designs shared many similarities with the weaponry developed by German rocket engineers during the 1930s and World War II. This caused many people to believe that the Germans had obtained and used copies of Goddard's work in their development of the V-2 rocket.
> 
> Robert Goddard - MSN Encarta


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Delirious..THAT IS EXACTLY why I love this site and threads like this..one gets so much knowledge here, with you guys..

I had never heard of Goddard..THANK you..(by the way..I do believe USA went to the moon, was just giving Cam a hard time)..as for the disgruntked Belgian...just ignore him...the only thing they ever found is how to hide from the French, in the skirts of the Dutch...(VBG)..ohh...they did invent the French fry, by the way...


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## Idiens (Jan 9, 2007)

Giulietta said:


> ...they did invent the French fry, by the way...


Please! And the saxophone.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Idiens...they invented the sax ???

Wow...Thanks for the info. I love to learn new things.
Thanks

Alex


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## Idiens (Jan 9, 2007)

Yes, Antoine Joseph Sax, alias Adolph Sax, invented it.

*
*


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Good news....

I found out just now, that most of Chile's was sailed under the Spanish crown, by Portuguese captains...

How cool is that???


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## eMKay (Aug 18, 2007)

I love history, it's one of my passions. As for the "discovery" of Australia everyone knows it wasn't Cook, but the evidence supporting the Portuguese is pretty shaky. Was it possible? Absolutely, personally I think the theory has merit, but believe the Chinese were likely to have "discovered" it first. here is an alternate view...

"Alternative views

Possibly because of the degree of conjecture involved in the theory of Portuguese discovery of Australia, there have been a number of critics. By far the most prolific writer on this theory, and also its most consistent critic, has been Flinders University Associate Professor W.A.R (Bill) Richardson, who has written 20 articles relating to the topic since 1983. [47] As Richardson, an academic fluent in Portuguese and Spanish, first approached the Dieppe maps in an effort to prove they did relate to Portuguese discovery of Australia, his criticisms are all the more interesting. He suggests he quickly realised there was no connection between the Dieppe maps and modern Australia's coastline.
" The case for an early Portuguese discovery of Australia rests entirely on imagined resemblances between the "continent" of Jave La Grande on the Dieppe maps and Australia. There are no surviving Portuguese 16th century charts showing any trace of land in that area, and there are no records whatsoever of any voyage along any part of the Australian coastline before 1606. Advocates of the Portuguese discovery theory endeavour to explain away this&#8230; embarrassing lack of direct supporting evidence as being due to two factors: the Portuguese official secrets policy, which must have been applied with a degree of efficiency that is hard to credit, and the 1755 Lisbon earthquake which, they claim, must have destroyed all the relevant archival material[48] "

He dismisses the claim that Cristóvão de Mendonça sailed down the east coast of Australia as sheer speculation, based on voyages about which no details have survived.[49] In the same way, the re-assembling of sections of the "Jave La Grande" coastline so that it fits the straightjacket of the real outline of Australia relies upon a second set of assumptions. He argues taking that approach, "Jave La Grande" could be re-assembled to look like anything.[50]

Another dimension of the argument Richardson advances against the theory relates to methodology. Richardson argues McIntyre's practice of re-drawing sections of maps in his book was misleading because in an effort to clarify he actually omitted crucial features and names that did not support the Portuguese discovery theory.[51]

Richardson's own view is that a study of placenames (toponymy) on "Jave La Grande" identifies it as unmistakably connected to the coasts of southern Java and Indochina.

The most damning criticism of McIntyre's theory has come from Captain A. Ariel's short article, which demonstrates serious errors by McIntyre in his understanding of measuring "erration" in longitude. Ariel concludes that The Secret Discovery of Australia is a " monumental piece of misinterpretation."[52]

In 2005, Historian Michael Pearson made the following comment on the Dieppe maps as evidence of a Portuguese discovery of Australia;
" If the Portuguese did in fact map the northern, western and eastern coasts, this information was hidden from general knowledge... The Dieppe maps had no claimed sources, no "discoverer" of the land shown... and the iconography on the various maps is based on Sumatran animals and ethnography, not the reality of Australia. In this sense the maps did not really expand European knowledge of Australia, the portrayal of "Jave La Grande" having no greater status that any other conjectural portrayal of Terra Australis."


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

I just discovered this thread late, but its interesting reading Giu. Certainly flies in the face of everything we were taught here in school....I'm going to get my hands on that book, because stuff like this really fascinates me. Will let you know what I think.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

*Reality was it was probably the Tasmanian Aborigines.*

But that was some time earlier than the the arrival of the white fella.

Sr McKay,

I'd like to dig further into the ideas espoused by the anti Portuguse chaps but it's a bit late in the year to be doing so now. Hopefully we might get a chance to discuss it in the New Year if its OK with you ?

Ignoring trade with the Northern Territorians by the Chinese and the Indonesians my feeling is that the Portuguese case is stronger than the Chinese for the rest of the continent but I'm not pretending I'm an expert. I simply love history and in particular the history of my own homeland.

One of the problems with 'popular' historians like McIntrye and 
Gavin Menzies (1421, The Year China Discovered the World) is that the do like to impose there own preconceptions as fact and in Menzies case his theories have been largely discredited or shown to lack any proveable basis. There may well still be a kurnell of truth in there but that would appear to be about all.

Anyway, I'm going to do some more digging and as I said, hopefully we can talk further later. Thanks for your references. Any excuse to spend an afternoon in the Mitchell Library is fine by me.

One final point however is that the Portuguese were renowned for their failure to publicise their discoveries , preumably for commercial reasons, in much the same way as the Basques.

Cheers

ps - have you read Beyond Capricorn ? I only ask because it does postdate at least Richardson's early work and one of McIntyre's claims is that while much was destroyed in the fire in Lisbon he found a lot of dicumentation in Goa, dating from the Portuguese occupation. I'd like to see Richardson's later pieces but I've only been able to find one lecture he did at Flinders University which I've ordered from the ANL.

If you can direct me to other sources for Richardson's work I'd really appreciate it.

pps - wrong wrong wrong....BC was first published in 1982. Richardson's critique is much later. A second edition of BC was published much later and I thought it was the first edition. My mistake.


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

Once and for all:
Courtney's Hero found Australia
SimonV, Again thank you for what you did for Courtney. God bless you!!!
see post #43


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