# Four Rescued from Sailboat



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

From a *story* that was on the TV news tonight:



> *CG Rescues Four From Eight-Foot Seas*
> May 13, 2008
> 
> U.S. Coast Guard|by Donnie Brzuska
> ...


Doesn't say what kind of boat it was...but it was a sailboat.


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

What the hell did they hit, a submerged cargo container?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Doesn't say... but I'd imagine being in a boat with a big metal weight on the bottom of it and a hole in it, isn't the best place to be.


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## hertfordnc (Sep 10, 2007)

here's a photo:

Coast Guard Rescues Four from Eight-Foot Seas


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## hertfordnc (Sep 10, 2007)

What else could be done? It took at least 20 minutes for the Cutter to get there but it might have been longer so is it possible there was a way to save the boat? 

I'm asking, I don't presume to know. 

How big a hole might we be talking about? 

Can you put a sail over the side to block the flow of water enough to bale faster than it's coming in? 

Did the batteries flood before they could get the engine running?

makes me think about how my wires are routed.

Maybe a seperate bus to the bilge pump and the radio that could be isolated and connectied to a battery that's up high in the boat?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Putting a sail or other cloth patch over the side would only help if the hole were in a location where such a cover could be held tight against the hull. Given the complex curves found in most small sailboats, this isn't usually possible. If they had access to the inner portion of the hull, a patch or block could have been worked out, but most recent boats have poor access to the hull due to hull liners being a big part of their manufacturing process.

I generally recommend that a high-capacity manual bilge pump be accessible in the cabin and another in the cockpit. Sometimes, you'll have to be in the cockpit, and having a manual high-capacity pump there can give you some extra time. Having the wiring run as high as possible in the boat, and having the batteries not in the bilge is probably a good idea, although I don't know how high you'd want the batteries, given their extreme weight.

From the video, the boat looks to be a fairly new boat, with in-mast furling and roller furling headsails.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

If you click on the photo in the link above, you can spool a video of the rescue,
or just go here:

http://www.uscgnewengland.com/posted/778/Wolf_Rescue_Short.203104.mov

Having looked at that clip, I have serious doubts that there were "four feet" of water in the cabin. The boat (looks like a Beneteau) is floating high on its lines, and is not behaving sluggishly as you'd expect a boat full of water would. Instead, it appears to be bouncing around much as you'd expect an under-canvassed boat would in a seaway.

Am I misreading this? Thoughts?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

It certainly doesn't look like it has a cabin full of water...


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

It will be interesting to see if the vessel is ever recovered - and to read an explanation from the captain.

Here's the USCG Quicktime Video, and a couple of screen shots from the low-quality video.










Note that the vessel seems to be floating on her lines OK - odd with "Four feet of water in her cabin". It is curious to note that between the time a mayday was transmitted and when the USCG arrived, most offshore crew in distress would deploy the inflatable, in case they needed to abandon ship. It''s still secured up against the transom.

Also, the running lights are working, so they didn't lose power.










EDIT - Dog - you're faster than me with those screen shots.


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## hertfordnc (Sep 10, 2007)

I was thinking through a prepared response-

- "We are flooding" --turn on bilge pump, Start the engine, move one battery to high shelf where aligator clips are stowed connected to an emergency BUS for bilge pump and VHF; all of that takes less than a minute and the boat will have some elctricity until the hatches are awash. 

Now you can look for the leak.

If the boat took 40 minutes to sink part way (as in photo) then how much water are we talking about? 

1100 LB per inch? Down 40 inches so that's 5500 gallons ? just over 100 GPM? So if you can reduce the flow by 80% you might get in front of the flooding and save your boat? 


But all of that is contingent on doing a few things right in the first 2 minutes. 


Again, I don't know- I'm asking.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

TB—

Yup...and higher quality screen captures cause I'm on a Mac.  

It doesn't really look like a boat that is in imminent danger of sinking... does it.


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## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

*Safety Question*



sailingdog said:


> Doesn't say... but I'd imagine being in a boat with a big metal weight on the bottom of it and a hole in it, isn't the best place to be.


So...just a beginner here. I should then have either the giant floatie thingies (I think they're called water wings) attached to my hull or an EPIRB? Just trying to put all the pieces of the puzzle together. Oh. and I need new foulies.

  

Is that right?


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

SD,
I have a high-res monitor but couldn't figure out how to capture the screen image - actually shot it with a digital camera and uploaded to photobucket. Care to share how you did that?

EDIT - It is after all an Apple-based, Quicktime video. So, users of *real* PC systems are blocked from the use of some functions. Have never had a problem capturing WM Player shots.

But I agree - no apparent crisis there. They may have just panicked when the engine quit and they had (gasp!) 8 foot seas. I've sailed to Nantucket in 8-10 foot seas . . . a bit of a sleighride, but no threat of danger.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*This one is for sailing dog*

here you go sailing dog


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

Good one Leland . . . not that there's anything wrong with that.


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## Duckwheat (May 6, 2008)

*any wagers?*

Any bet's it floats up on a beach somewhere pretty much unscathed?

Looks pretty high in the water for having 4' of water in it.

The old saying don't abandon ship until you have to step up to get in the life raft, not at play here.

DW


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## brak (Jan 5, 2007)

This is Beneteau which means the hull would be very shallow, hulls own draft is less than 1'. From the images it does look like she sits quite abit lower than usual (though not 4' by any measure, at 4' in Benny water would be up to everyones neck and the boat would be sitting exactly 4' under water). 
However, it is worth noting that she is listing to one side, and water may be on that side, so the side towards the camera looks higher while the other one sunk more.

In any case, as with any salty rescue story, the seamonster is 3 times as big - there may be a foot of water or so in their boat. Since Bennies don't have a bilge, fairly small amount of water will flood the cabin, float the floorboards and likely kill the engine too. Without the engine, their batteries would not be able to run the bilge pump for long (and depending on how wiring goes - a short might prevent them from running at all).


I had a silly incident with my prev. Beneteau - on a first day of sailing, just as we left Annapolis water started flooding in at a very high rate. I had 1"-2" inches appear every minute or so - bailing with the pump or the bucket wasn't fast enough. My floorboards turned into rafts   and it all looked very very scary - especially if you can't find the source and have to wade ankle deep in rising water with stuff floating around. Turned out - silly design (or, more likely, modification by PO - it could have never worked) - shower drain which is firmly under water level was connected to sink drain and sink drain seacock was open, so water entered from the shower. But the point is - even with 3/4" seacock open and flooding the boat through a hose - water levels rise very quickly, and in a boat without a bilge stuff will float right away.


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Probably just another Florida insurance job. I'm guessing that that boat would have been floating just about as she was until such time as it was certain the Coast Guard was able to extricate them from her.

I'm also thinking, were it me in that situation, I'd be on the VHF long before triggering the EPIRB. A cutter was only six miles away, probably actually in sight to the astute observer. I think the real flooding didn't start until the CG responded with an ETA. But hey? Those cheap French-built boats, they could have hit the backside of a Palm Beach gay manatee and holed her. You know how tough those are. Well, Hog does, anyway.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Macs have a built in screen shot capability, so I just typed a CMD-Shift-4 and selected the video player... and voila... a PNG file of the image. 

I never saw 8' seas like the ones in the video as a major threat, and my boat is a good deal smaller than the one in the video. The boat doesn't appear to be floating off it lines by much if at all, and certainly not to the degree I'd expect if it had 4' of water inside it. The boot stripe is clearly visible, if somewhat damaged in areas.


SWAY-

I thought Manatees were a protected species...


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## tommyt (Sep 21, 2002)

I would agree that it "looks" like she is floating on her lines. We have a tendency to become "armchair" sailors lately. No matter what the story "says" happened, there are at least 10 theories about what really happened. All of this is fine analysis, and does make you think about what may be and what we may do, so at least that is positive.

The story looks as if the Coast Guard said that there was 4' of water in the cabin. They must be lying bastards! Couldn't be! The boat is fine! Should have sailed her to safety, no problem! 

Please, let the first person that has had water up to their ass or chest, 200 miles off shore in 8-10' seas, say what "they" would do in this situation.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

tommyt said:


> Please, let the first person that has had water up to their ass or chest, 200 miles off shore in 8-10' seas, say what "they" would do in this situation.


I'll go first . . . I would give the order to the crew to deploy the inflatable.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I'd agree...why didn't they deploy the dinghy, if they thought the big boat was in imminent danger of sinking???


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## Joel73 (Apr 23, 2007)

tommyt said:


> I would agree that it "looks" like she is floating on her lines. We have a tendency to become "armchair" sailors lately. No matter what the story "says" happened, there are at least 10 theories about what really happened. All of this is fine analysis, and does make you think about what may be and what we may do, so at least that is positive.
> 
> The story looks as if the Coast Guard said that there was 4' of water in the cabin. They must be lying bastards! Couldn't be! The boat is fine! Should have sailed her to safety, no problem!
> 
> *Please, let the first person that has had water up to their ass or chest, 200 miles off shore in 8-10' seas, say what "they" would do in this situation*.


EXACTLY!!!

It's hard to know (for them) exactly how bad the damage was. If i was single handing then i may be willing to take some risks but being responsible for the crew i think i would have done the same thing... Hailing on the VHF and preparing the liferaft while grabbing the ditch bag including the EPIRB.... and staying with the boat until it was not safe any longer.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

Someone mentioned how shallow the bilges were on Beneteaus. I suppose then, that water would fill the cabins sooner than most keel boats of similar size.


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## tommyt (Sep 21, 2002)

TB,
If you have been 200 miles offshore with water up to your ass you need to tell that story. I don't think you have shared it yet. Alex can even do photo shop for you.

As far as the dingy, I for one don't understand what it is doing there 200 miles off shore unless they were preparing it. However, whether it was stored there or being prepared to abandon, I would rather it not be beating against the boat until I was ready to step UP into it. That little puppy is my last recourse. It is certainly not going to be a pretty ride 200 miles from shore.


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## brak (Jan 5, 2007)

The dinghy was, essentially, deployed as they appear to have been towing it by the stern. So, I assume that there isn't much they could have done - just wait until the help arrives or their boat sinks enough that moving into the dinghy is safer. It's a bennie with an open transom - once it is deep enoigh in the water, they just step into the dinghy - nothing to "deploy". 

I suppose trying to locate and fix the problem may have been useful, but considering a fully enclosed "liner" these boats have - there is little they can do for many places on the hull. This is especially true of lower forward part which is fully enclosed.


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## brak (Jan 5, 2007)

TrueBlue said:


> Someone mentioned how shallow the bilges were on Beneteaus. I suppose then, that water would fill the cabins sooner than most keel boats of similar size.


This thing is on Yachtworld? I bet it's all fixed up and for sale at an excellent price too


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Damn, that is almost as shallow as the bilge on my boat...  not quite...but close... but I don't have the big metal weight...


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

There was a thread on SN featuring this "fixer-upper" not too long ago . . . LINK


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

tommyt said:


> TB,
> If you have been 200 miles offshore with water up to your ass you need to tell that story. I don't think you have shared it yet. Alex can even do photo shop for you.
> 
> As far as the dingy . . .That little puppy is my last recourse.


You're absolutely right tommy - never been in that situation, so I'll STFU - even after a Giu PS job. (g)

There is also the sit-on-top kayak. Those things are unsinkable - about as unstable as a multi-hull in high seas, but they won't sink.


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## brak (Jan 5, 2007)

sailingdog said:


> Damn, that is almost as shallow as the bilge on my boat...  not quite...but close... but I don't have the big metal weight...


Could it be a case of big metal weight envy?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Hmm...doing a little math here... a 38' boat with 4' of water in the cabin.

Beam is 12' 6" or so... call it 9' for the cabin itself. Say 24' long for the cabin. So 24' x 9' = 216 sq. ft. Call the fudge factor for the shape of the boat .6... and that still leaves the surface area of the cabin sole as 130 sq. ft. 4' x 130 sq. ft = 520 cubic feet. 520 cubic feet * 64 lbs. / cubic foot of seawater... 33,280 lbs. of water...

I don't see a Bendytoy 38' boat being able to float with 15 tons of water aboard her... especially with the boot stripe still showing... something doesn't add up here... I don't think the boat had 4' of water in it... even if my rough calculations are off by 20%... you're still talking 12 tons of water. * The PPI on a Beneteau First 38 is about 1200 lbs. per inch... 12 tons is 24,000 or 20" of freeboard... there's no way the boot stripe should be showing. *


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Are we sure it is a Beneteau? Looks similar but not exact on what I can find. What model?

I am pretty skeptical about taking any info in news stories at face value. Was it a 38' boat? Was there 8' seas. Was there 4' of water? I would allow for some exaggeration on the part of the sailors or the coasties or improper transcription/interpertation by the news reporters. 
Nevertheless...always good to speculate if only to think through our own strategies in similar straits. My own questions...
Where is the LIFERAFT 200 miles offshore??
What the hell is a dinghy doing in that position 200 miles offshore?
If the boat was a near on her lines as shown...why not get a de-watering pump aboard to assess the damage and perhaps save the boat?
Is the boat still out there floating today?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Most modern 38' boats are going to be about the same beam.. give or take a few inches... it certainly looks like a modern benehuntalina, so I think my numbers are probably still in the right ball park at least.


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## Joel73 (Apr 23, 2007)

camaraderie said:


> Is the boat still out there floating today?


Hard to say... but that does look like a nice boat!! Too bad i don't have the time or money to claim her.


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

See what we have to do is make all keel bolts explosive bolts so that big metal lead mine that ya'll carry can be blown away if you are holed. Then the boat won't sink and that will save lives 
I'll send a letter to my congressman and get them working on it. I'm sure it will come out as law about the same time that prop guards, PFD wear, and of course blower activation become requirements (but not a breathalyser, becasue that would piss of the booze lobby).


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## Joel73 (Apr 23, 2007)

chucklesR said:


> See what we have to do is make all keel bolts explosive bolts so that big metal lead mine that ya'll carry can be blown away if you are holed. Then the boat won't sink and that will save lives
> I'll send a letter to my congressman and get them working on it. I'm sure it will come out as law about the same time that prop guards, PFD wear, and of course blower activation become requirements (but not a breathalyser, becasue that would piss of the booze lobby).


    

Yikes... and i thought my auto-inflating PFD going off accidently last weekend was bad. Could you imagine an accidental jettison of the keel?!!! That would S-U-C-K!.... of course i know it's just a joke.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

A new USCG Press Release doesn't shed any more light on the subject.

Two more photos from the original Press Release . . .


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

The second photo shows a boat that looks a lot lower in the water than the video clip does.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

I think it's due to being in the trough of a large wave, creating that illusion.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

good point... the photo's not all that clear...and the small craft from the USCG is is the same trough. Still doesn't look as if it imminently in danger of sinking.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Just for the record that is not a Beneteau but a Kirie Feeling 1100.

Jeff


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Thanks Jeff...


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## brak (Jan 5, 2007)

camaraderie said:


> What the hell is a dinghy doing in that position 200 miles offshore?
> If the boat was a near on her lines as shown...why not get a de-watering pump aboard to assess the damage and perhaps save the boat?
> Is the boat still out there floating today?


I think Coast Guard will do the required minimum unless specifically asked otherwise. They are not under obligation to pump the boat or save her - only the people. I suppose it captain specifically asked them about that, it may have been an option - but these guys seem to be in a hurry to get off.

What's wrong with dinghy position? It is lashed to the stern, ready to use but out of the way. If it is done properly - good seakindly position to carry it - beats swinging from davits.


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## brak (Jan 5, 2007)

Jeff_H said:


> Just for the record that is not a Beneteau but a Kirie Feeling 1100.
> 
> Jeff


That would make it 33-34' long. Isn't Kirie made by Beneteau anyway?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I'm not sure, after looking at a photo of a Kirie Feeling 1100, that it is one.










There are ports in the side of the boat in the video, that are not present on the Kirie Feeling 1100.



















Also, there appear to be two smaller hatches forward of the mast on the mystery boat, not the single one on the offset to the port side shown in the photo of the Kirie Feeling 1100.

Also, the bow of the Kirie Feeling 1100 appears to have a longer overhang than the mystery boat.


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## Waugh (Sep 12, 2007)

Looks similar to this Beneteau


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

But the ports in the hull topsides and the ports in the cabin top are all wrong.


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## Waugh (Sep 12, 2007)

Bleh, I tried


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

Mr. Twitchy boat, (SD-) can you zoom in on the name of the boat on your fancy Apple computer? Might be worth searching the name.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

The boat's name is WOLF... no need to zoom...it was mentioned in several of the stories. Dumb name for a boat, considering that Wolves are terrestrial critters..


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

sailingdog said:


> The boat's name is WOLF... no need to zoom...it was mentioned in several of the stories. Dumb name for a boat, considering that Wolves are terrestrial critters..


Maybe they mean as in "SeaWolf"??

The curious thing about this boat is that it has three fixed ports in the starboard hull, and four in the port side hull. Surely that would be a distinguishing characteristic that could narrow down the field?


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## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

sailingdog said:


> The boat's name is WOLF... no need to zoom...it was mentioned in several of the stories. Dumb name for a boat, considering that Wolves are terrestrial critters..


 

Meet Wolfgang (dad)... .'Wolf' to his friends...


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## tommyt (Sep 21, 2002)

TB,

No need to STFU, I was looking forward to the story. I would never look forward to the reality...but the story would be good.
By the way, have you made a decision on the Nauticat replacement as yet? Go fast? Cat to stay flat? Day Sailor? No matter what Alex says, I still think that the Alerion is pretty. Going to sail one this summer...I will let you know how it is if you haven't already bought one.


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## OZBOATIE (Aug 13, 2002)

I have been told that gel cell batteries will work underwater is this the case?


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

All sealed lead acid batteries (AGM and gel) aka "valve regulated" batteries are sealed and no seawater will penetrate them until a certain pressure difference is exceeded. That would vary with the battery, perhaps four to ten feet. But even wet lead batteries will work to some extent, for some short time, when submerged. A lot depends on how tight their caps are, but then again, salt water will short the terminals and the entire system, making it anyone's guess how power power would flow where after the system was submerged.

Which is one reason that a number of major races require watertight collision bulkheads. Slam into a container, and the hole you tear open goes beyond any other form of damage control very quickly.


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## nonsailor (Oct 8, 2007)

There has been some discussion in this thread about whether there was 4' of water in the cabin or not, post #4 linked to an article in capecod today, and one of the comments following the article was apparently from a person who knew the owners of the boat and he was told the water in the cabin was "only" knee deep.

I don't know if this helps at all but I just thought I'd mention it.


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## seabreeze_97 (Apr 30, 2006)

Funny they didn't have time to lauch the dinghy or kayak but did manage to have the sails neatly furled. Anyone see the bilge discharge from someone furiously working the manual pump? Bucket brigade? Anything?


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

Nice way to pay off a boat?


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## NauticalFishwife (Dec 12, 2007)

Take a look at the Captains foulies, that tells you something.... it would be interesting to see how much offshore experience they had. This took place some time ago, has anyone tried to locate information since then? I did, but couldn't find any follow up stories. Interesting that they left the boat floating. It then becomes a hazard for others at sea. Certainly the CG has been known to sink a vessel because of this. A Captain I've sailed with has been with a CG helicopter when they sank a disabled vessel for that reason. Do we have CG folks out there who can comment?


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

There's a business opportunity here for those willing to parajump into a storm with a zodiak and inflatable bags, to grab a sinking vessel before it sinks. An opportunity for someone younger than me.


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