# Let's talk motorsailers/pilothouses



## bljones

I'm looking for ideas.
Here's the parameters:
Motorsailer/pilothouse.
must have inside helm.
Draft less than 5'
Under $50K
What would you buy and why?
go.


----------



## olson34

Probably mostly a BC kinda boat, but if you can find a Cooper you might want to take a good look. Have done a delivery in a 32 and believe that they had several models in the mid-30's size range. Solid boat.
LB


----------



## blt2ski

What length? not that I personally would want a boat with less than 5' of draft depending upon where I am going. Gulf, Fisher, nauticat are among a few that I know of with what you describe. 

Jeanneau has a model or two from the mid 80s that might fit your need. I would need to look it up at the owners site to verify/remember the model name. The few I have seen fit the $$ amount, not sure about the rest of the requirements.

marty


----------



## christyleigh

blt2ski said:


> Gulf, Fisher, nauticat are among a few that I know of with what you describe.


As I posted to Mr Jones on another site unfortunately the "Under $50K" leaves Nauticats out of the picture  People are still looking for over $70K for a 70's model and it only goes up from there....


----------



## smackdaddy

Pilothouse sailboats are kind of like "condoms" for sailing. I believe in going commando.


----------



## bljones

smackdaddy said:


> Pilothouse sailboats are kind of like "condoms" for sailing. I believe in going commando.


Which is okay if you're undercanvassed.


----------



## sailingdog

I don't think you'll see many Nauticats for that price.. Most of the pilothouse boats are larger boats, and as such are going to be out of your price range. IIRC, Cape Dory made a small pilot house boat, but it was a pretty rare beastie.


----------



## smackdaddy

bljones said:


> Which is okay if you're undercanvassed.


Hey, I don't even have a dodger! Talk about undercanvassed!


----------



## bljones

Okay, here's the list of possibilities that has sorta popped up:
Capital yachts Gulf 27
Capital yachts Gulf 32
Fisher 30
Willard Vega Horizon
Fales Navigator

Anybody have any thoughts on any of these?


----------



## tdw

First BL you are seriously into Motor Sailor territory by the looks of things. None of these things is going to be nippy under sail alone, or so I would have thought. 

That said and given where you live a Pilot House or Deck Saloon of some kind would seem to make sense and for my money motor sailing is better than no sailing at all. 

The Fales and the Willard are the same boat by different builders ? I kind of like the look of them in a weird launchy kind of fashion. Would seem to be the most Motorish of the choices but thats just based on a pic or two.

As a Sailor I'd have guessed the Capitals to be the best of your nominations. Again only based on a few googled images they good a well built thing. Probably top of my list if you want to do any real sailing.

Personal opinion but I never did like the small Fishers. As Motor Sailors go the Fisher 43 (42 ?) was a pearler but the little one look like they sailed off the pages of an Enid Blyton Noddy book. 

So based on my presumption that you'd like to get out and about when its a tad chilly and are not obsessed with super dooper sailing performance you could do worse for yourself.

Hey Smack...sorry to hear you have lost your sprayhood.....


----------



## Faster

I think the Capital/Gulf smaller version was a 29 - could be a redecked version of the Newport 28 hull. We have a friend in our club, loves his and he routinely singlehands even though he's getting into his 80s. This is still a decent sailboat..









The Gulf 32 is a different beast altogether. Full keel, heavy but their owners are a faithful cult too...









In the Cooper line there was a 316, a 353, 416 and 502. Few 50s were built and you'd likely only find a 316 or a rough 353 under 50K. Not bad looking for a pilothouse... even the 316 is nicely drawn, but necessarily a bit bulky at that size. The cockpits are smallish, the deckhouses large and so sightlines are fairly compromised from the outside helm.










These are relatively beamy hulls but with narrow ends. Fin keels and skeg rudders IIRC. US yachts bought the molds and briefly produced the US 35 and US 42.. not sure how many (or how few) were built and sold. Another short-lived outfit bought the molds of the 316 and a couple of Northwest 32s were built. The last had to be owner finished, we saw it this past summer and he did a nice job of it.

Cooper also produced the "Seabird 37" line in a raised pilothouse version and a center cockpit version. These are definitely motorsailors, with long shallow keels that may draw not more than 3 or 4 feet. Not pretty to my eye..










Agree that the Fishers have the 'look' but they are not particularly roomy, fairly narrow, and definitely favouring the 'motor' side of the equation.

Fraser built a pilothouse version of their Fraser 30.. not the prettiest girl at the dance either, but it's a solid boat and there are plenty of hulls with various decks and plans in BC as so many of these were sold as kits.










Oh... Somebody, maybe in WA state - produced a pilothouse version of the Catalina 30.. I've only seen one and not sure how many were made.. but the name "Eagle" sticks in my head.. I'll see if I can do some digging... 
EDIT... Found reference to an Eagle 30/American Eagle 30... PNW based C30 "conversions" to pilothouse..

The quintessential BC pilothouse has to be the Sceptre 41/43... but quite a few $50Ks.


----------



## tdw

Faster and Wombat will now proceed to fisticuffs over which is superior..the Dehler 41DS or the Sceptre.  

You are a cruel man Fast....here's Jonesy asking about sub $50Grand and you go mentioning Sceptres. tsk tsk. 

Nonetheless BLJ......sell the wife and children into slavery......just a thought...

whoa...the Cooper Seabird is a tad sheddish ain't she ?


----------



## blt2ski

THere is a Gulf 27, not sure about a 29, and there is a 32 to my knowledge. as there is a 27 and 32 at my marina. 

Then again, if you can afford a few ie 4 $50K bills, I know of a sceptre for sail here in Edmonds wa.

If you can find a Jeanneau Fantasia, they have the feel of a MS< altho not a true pilot house design.

Marty


----------



## Faster

Right you are, Marty... here it is










More in line with the 29 than the Garden designed 32 I'd say.


----------



## blt2ski

It was as I recall, and you mention, a newport/cc hull with a pilot house deckhousing on it. There may be a review in Good old boat in the future of a 27, i am recalling a 32 was also done recently. From the fellow that has the 27, there is a reasonably active owners site, or email list too.

marty


----------



## jrd22

Northsea 34, if you can find one in good shape. BC built boat from late 70's, early 80's



















Another great boat is Bilgewaters- I think it's a Truant 33?










both of these sail very well, despite what our resident pilothouse expert Smack has to say on the subject.

I also like the Shannon 38, but you won't find one for 50k. A lot of people like the Gulfs, and in our marina there is a Rawson 34 which is a very nice boat but hard to find.


----------



## olson34

Faster said:


> In the Cooper line there was a 316, a 353, 416 and 502. Few 50s were built and you'd likely only find a 316 or a rough 353 under 50K. Not bad looking for a pilothouse... even the 316 is nicely drawn, but necessarily a bit bulky at that size. The cockpits are smallish, the deckhouses large and so sightlines are fairly compromised from the outside helm.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These are relatively beamy hulls but with narrow ends. Fin keels and skeg rudders IIRC. US yachts bought the molds and briefly produced the US 35 and US 42.. not sure how many (or how few) were built and sold. Another short-lived outfit bought the molds of the 316 and a couple of Northwest 32s were built. The last had to be owner finished, we saw it this past summer and he did a nice job of it.


Small world! That "NW 32" custom that you saw is likely the one that I have done two deliveries on, Pt Angeles to Astoria... most recent one was this Sept. 
The finish work inside and out is awesome. That boat is solid as the proverbial rock. I can testify that it's very nice to be watch-standing at the inside wheel with the radar and plotter when the Straits are planting wave tops on the decks every xx seconds for ten hours as we go west into the chop.


LB


----------



## jrd22

olson34 said:


> I can testify that it's very nice to be watch-standing at the inside wheel with the radar and plotter when the Straits are planting wave tops on the decks every xx seconds for ten hours as we go west into the chop.
> 
> 
> LB


I second that! It's also nice to be dry and warm in shorts and a T-shirt while it's raining cats and dogs and everyone in other boats are in their foulies alone in the cockpit.


----------



## bljones

You west coasters have a lot more choices then i see here in the east. Thanks for the input.

TDW, Neptune help me, I am starting to get seriously intrigued by a Navigator or a Willard. yeah they are kind of an odd duck, but it's an interesting package.

What brought this brainfart about was running the numbers from the logbook over the past three seasons. Turns out, we motor as often as we sail, and there is always some great sailing to be had in the spring and fall, providing you have some decent weather protection.
Regarding draft, Long Point bay tends to get pretty skinny in the fall. Anybody in our marina who draws more than 5.5- 6' is usually hauling out by the middle of september, because the depth begins to get questionable. Which is too bad, because there was some really really great sailing right up until the end of october this year.

I don't race, so speed and handling and pointing ability are not at the top of my priority list. I cruise. I tend to cruise slow. I ain't in no hurry because, as far as i am concerned, like a lot of us, i am already there.


----------



## Faster

olson34 said:


> Small world! That "NW 32" custom that you saw is likely the one that I have done two deliveries on, Pt Angeles to Astoria... most recent one was this Sept.
> The finish work inside and out is awesome. That boat is solid as the proverbial rock. I can testify that it's very nice to be watch-standing at the inside wheel with the radar and plotter when the Straits are planting wave tops on the decks every xx seconds for ten hours as we go west into the chop.
> 
> 
> LB


Cool... Can't remember the gentleman's name (or boat name for that matter.. I'd recognize it if you told me) but we had some nice conversations when we shared moorage at Gorge Harbour and Vananda.

The NW 32 is somewhat different than the Cooper 316 - most visually in the house top treatment. The NW has a overhanging roof edge a la the Gulf pilothouses that the Coopers all lack.. I think it adds some interesting detail. Also, probably as a result, the windows are a little smaller.


----------



## blt2ski

By the way smackie,

What the frig is a dodger

I do not think my boat has one, altho wife might consider the inside of the cabin one on ugly days!:laugher:laugher:laugher while I am in the cockpit getting wet


----------



## Bilgewater

jrd22 said:


> Another great boat is Bilgewaters- I think it's a Truant 33?


Hey, that's my boat....  and is that Erps in the skiff???? sure looks like his floppy hat!


----------



## JimMcGee

Faster said:


> Oh... Somebody, maybe in WA state - produced a pilothouse version of the Catalina 30.. I've only seen one and not sure how many were made.. but the name "Eagle" sticks in my head.. I'll see if I can do some digging...
> EDIT... Found reference to an Eagle 30/American Eagle 30... PNW based C30 "conversions" to pilothouse..


Faster, can you post that link. As a Catalina 30 owner I have to see what this thing looks like. I really can't imagine the conversion...

Jim


----------



## smackdaddy

jrd22 said:


> both of these sail very well, despite what our resident pilothouse expert Smack has to say on the subject


Hey - at least I didn't charge for the consultation!

Here, let me try a different tack...

Normal Sailboat:










Pilothouse:










Trimaran:










NTTAWWT.


----------



## Faster

JimMcGee said:


> Faster, can you post that link. As a Catalina 30 owner I have to see what this thing looks like. I really can't imagine the conversion...
> 
> Jim


Jim

All I was able to find was a reference/thread on Sailboatowners forum where a poster there found a link.. I was unable to retrieve it. Googling "Eagle 30" will get you there, maybe you'll have better luck (might need to join SBO to actually see the link) It was done on earlier models (this was back in the mid 80s) with the older style ports.. the newer decks may not be so conducive to that mod. It was an OK looking boat, as I recall.


----------



## bljones

your analogy is a little weak, smack. Try this:
"Normal" sailboat:








Pilothouse:








Trimaran:


----------



## JimMcGee

Faster said:


> Jim
> 
> All I was able to find was a reference/thread on Sailboatowners forum where a poster there found a link.. I was unable to retrieve it. Googling "Eagle 30" will get you there, maybe you'll have better luck (might need to join SBO to actually see the link) It was done on earlier models (this was back in the mid 80s) with the older style ports.. the newer decks may not be so conducive to that mod. It was an OK looking boat, as I recall.


Thanks Faster. I'm a member over at SailboatOwners. The link they reference is no longer there. Tried all kinds of google variations that turned up nothing. Like I said, I'm just curious what this thing looks like...


----------



## smackdaddy

Heh-heh. Well played, bl!!

[cue golfclap]


----------



## blackjenner

*And here's mine*

A 1980 Ta Shing Flying Dutchman Baba 35 Pilot House, designed by Bob Perry; one of about seven in the world.

The thing I really like about this pilothouse is how well it integrates into the shape of the boat and the cabin. I think it's one of the best I've seen.

As I was buying Perry's book on yacht design, the woman at Armchair Sailor asked, "do you have a boat?"

"Yes," I replied. "We pick it up tomorrow. It's a Baba 35 Pilot house."

"I hate pilot house boats," she said.

I looked at her and smiled...

"Well, I didn't buy the boat for you."

We got the keys yesterday after a nine month search.

Brigadoon has a new home, nestled against the end of Tillicum Marina, on Lake Union. I surprised my broker by wanting to move the boat today, just as a storm system was leaving. We had a dicey moment at the marina but, once we got out into the lake, it was a pretty easy shot to our slip.

We took no pictures today. There was too much to do to fumble with a camera. A good friend, who is making a documentary about live aboard folk, did come along and videotape our maiden voyage.

Brigadoon now sits against the doc. She's still afloat (we checked after a celebratory dinner at 9 Million in Fremont) last we left her. I'm sure I'll go by and check on her daily. We return Thursday night to settle some more things and plan on camping out on her this weekend.

There's much to do. I'll be busy re-bedding chain plate covers, stopping a few small leaks, sorting out the entire boat, building a big todo list, scheduling some engine maintenance, and transitioning to moving aboard the weekend of the 13th of November.

It's taken eight long months, looking at possibly a hundred boats, talking to tens of brokers, until we found Brigadoon.

Thanks for listening and, as I said to Kerry tonight, "Whew! Done."

"No," she replied. "We've just begun."

Gosh I love her.

The boat isn't bad either.

Picasa Web Albums - donn.christianson - Brigadoon


----------



## blackjenner

bljones said:


> your analogy is a little weak, smack. Try this:
> "Normal" sailboat:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pilothouse:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trimaran:


Apparently, you have never seen a sidehack at full tilt, or one ridden in the show and ice when all regular motorcycles have to hide in the garage. 

By the way, I've owned the equivalent of the Busa and the Hack and enjoyed them both.

I do think the scooter is cute, though. Too bad you can't show it toasting the Busa, which some high perf trimirans do to mono-hulls.

Bikes and motorcycles are what they are, and each serves it's own purpose.

Ride/sail what makes you smile.


----------



## bljones

Nice boat, blacky! Congratulations. The far east built boats sure have some lovely woodwork... and a damn lot of it!


----------



## bljones

blackjenner said:


> Apparently, you have never seen a sidehack at full tilt, or one ridden in the show and ice when all regular motorcycles have to hide in the garage.


 exactly my point.


----------



## blackjenner

smackdaddy said:


> Hey - at least I didn't charge for the consultation!
> 
> Here, let me try a different tack...
> 
> Normal Sailboat:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pilothouse:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NTTAWWT.


That is hilarious. Yeah, my new Baba is, in a way, a station wagon.


----------



## sailingdog

It's nice to see that smackdaddy is still in denial about what trimarans can do...


----------



## jrd22

blackjenner said:


> Brigadoon has a new home, nestled against the end of Tillicum Marina, on Lake Union.
> 
> Picasa Web Albums - donn.christianson - Brigadoon


Congrats on the new boat, she's a beauty. I've seen her somewhere but can't remember where, possibly here in the SJ's, Anacortes, or further north?
Funny/strange how some people, who in my experience have absolutely no knowledge about pilothouse sailboats, have strong negative opinions about them 

Another boat that I would recommend to the OP would be the Cape George 36 PH. I've seen some for around 70K, probably owner finished. Rock solid world cruiser.


----------



## bljones

The budget, man, the budget!
$50K. Tops. Even at that I may need to sell an organ.


----------



## smackdaddy

Black - dude, nice Baba!!! She does look super cozy, stout and capable - and there's a lot to be said for that. Perry is definitely the man. Is that a Gibson by the bulkhead? Nice!

Now, Dog, baby, I've sailed a tri (a Corsair) at 17 knots - and, granted, it was fun. So I'm not in denial about what multis "can do". I'm talking about the LOOK of the boat. And I'm just saying a tri looks like a freakin' yardsale for hulls. And multis are a little wimpy in the snot. Just ask Tony B.


----------



## blackjenner

jrd22 said:


> Congrats on the new boat, she's a beauty. I've seen her somewhere but can't remember where, possibly here in the SJ's, Anacortes, or further north?
> Funny/strange how some people, who in my experience have absolutely no knowledge about pilothouse sailboats, have strong negative opinions about them
> 
> Another boat that I would recommend to the OP would be the Cape George 36 PH. I've seen some for around 70K, probably owner finished. Rock solid world cruiser.


Yeah, she is from Vancouver (not the pretty one) and has been in the Puget Sound for a while, up near Anachortes for a while at the broker. When she was brought down here, we saw her first (MINE!) and put an offer on her.

A for the budget bjones is working under, that will be a challenge. We haven't seen many decent (in our opinion) PH boats near 50K. Ours started at a asking price of almost twice that. We looked at a Nauticat (won't sail as well as the Baba for sure) at about 100K. The first PH we looked at was a Brewer 40 at 133K and she was beautiful but, she had gelcoat blisters on her hull and was a little out of our budget range for needing gelcoat work.

Good luck on your search.


----------



## sailingdog

Might also consider asking Dame Ellen who didn't seem to have a problem with a multihull in the snotty stuff. Tony B has a history of flipping boats, both multis and monos, and only and idiot would point him out as an example. Oh, I forgot who I was talking to.... 



smackdaddy said:


> Black - dude, nice Baba!!! She does look super cozy, stout and capable - and there's a lot to be said for that. Perry is definitely the man. Is that a Gibson by the bulkhead? Nice!
> 
> Now, Dog, baby, I've sailed a tri (a Corsair) at 17 knots - and, granted, it was fun. So I'm not in denial about what multis "can do". I'm talking about the LOOK of the boat. And I'm just saying a tri looks like a freakin' yardsale for hulls. And multis are a little wimpy in the snot. Just ask Tony B.


----------



## smackdaddy

sailingdog said:


> Might also consider asking Dame Ellen who didn't seem to have a problem with a multihull in the snotty stuff. Tony B has a history of flipping boats, both multis and monos, and only and idiot would point him out as an example. Oh, I forgot who I was talking to....


Touché...she is a fine sailor:










As for Tony's tumble...just sayin'...










Hulls everywhere.

But back to the topic at hand...I don't recall any Pilothouses turtling in a while. They must have something going on.


----------



## bljones

Then there's always the ultimate Smacky kryptonite...
the pilothouse catamaran. Gentlemen, I present to you the Catfisher-










1986 Catfisher Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com


----------



## smackdaddy

Gaaaaaaa!!!!


----------



## sailingdog

Gotta agree with smacky on this one...
:laugher :laugher :laugher That thing is hideous. 


smackdaddy said:


> Gaaaaaaa!!!!


----------



## bubb2

Please, Please make it go away!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## smackdaddy

Here Bubb...


----------



## bubb2

bljones said:


> The budget, man, the budget!
> $50K. Tops. Even at that I may need to sell an organ.


Maybe, we should talk?


----------



## bljones

Lol!


----------



## Faster

bljones said:


> Lol!


Who said he's kidding??


----------



## blt2ski

Smack,

There was a nauticat that went down off the coast of Ca about 3-4 yrs ago. I know one of the two onboard, both got to shore safely thanks to the CG and they being reasonably ready for off shore work etc. But from a thread on here, that nauticat may not have been one of the offshore A rated boats too, so that could be one of the reasons it went down int he large winds, waves etc when the windows broke. There was an article in a local rag, i could find it I am sure.

For me any how, PH boats are not pretty. BUT, I will say for the weather, easy warm all year sailing here in Puget Sound and north to BC, an excellent choice for a boat, as long as it was designed to sail to some degree. Not my first choice for a boat at this time in my life. Wife on the other hand...........

marty


----------



## blackjenner

blt2ski said:


> Smack,
> 
> There was a nauticat that went down off the coast of Ca about 3-4 yrs ago. I know one of the two onboard, both got to shore safely thanks to the CG and they being reasonably ready for off shore work etc. But from a thread on here, that nauticat may not have been one of the offshore A rated boats too, so that could be one of the reasons it went down int he large winds, waves etc when the windows broke. There was an article in a local rag, i could find it I am sure.
> 
> For me any how, PH boats are not pretty. BUT, I will say for the weather, easy warm all year sailing here in Puget Sound and north to BC, an excellent choice for a boat, as long as it was designed to sail to some degree. Not my first choice for a boat at this time in my life. Wife on the other hand...........
> 
> marty


I think I'll love the Baba. I know the boat is capable of offshore. However, with those windows I don't think I'd be willing to take her offshore without protections for the pilot house windows, such as heavy duty shutters.


----------



## christyleigh

blackjenner said:


> I think I'll love the Baba. I know the boat is capable of offshore. However, with those windows I don't think I'd be willing to take her offshore without protections for the pilot house windows, such as heavy duty shutters.


 Congrats on the Baba..... beautiful boat !! I didn't know they made a PH. The only Baba I've ever been on was owned by the broker who sold me my NC.... a 37 I think. Beeeeautiful.

That NC that went down had the older style windows set in rubber but even my, lets call it the 3rd generation of NC 33's, is still only rated B because of the sliding PH doors. And then.... there is the NC 33 that the owner chickened out on off Mexico and it was found something like 2 years later floating out by Hawaii somewhere in fine shape  As for your Baba outsailing the NC you looked at.... probably would because the older generation NC 33's were full keeled and not much for sailing.

Enjoy...... and as your wife said.... it's only the beginning.....


----------



## blt2ski

Stan,

Thank you for the "what and why" caused said NC to go down. I was not trying to knock them, other than to say to smack that they have gone down! There are plenty of NC's here in puget sound, folks luv them as much as other brands of PH style boats. The NC is not my cup of tea, as I have said before. Then again, I would luv one of the new bene 1st 30's or a 35, or jeanneau sf3200......I am sure the OP and others are going "ew yuck!":laugher:laugher:laugher

OP, do not worry about the sinking I talked about, get your self a PH if that is what you like, BUT, I would recommend if you have not seen the article, or know of the circumstances, to look up what happened, and make sure you fix, or know how to deal with issues that could arrive, if you sail in an area(s) that the above issue Stan talked about could occur with the boat you get.

Marty


----------



## smackdaddy

What caused the sinking? Was it the oversized windows? Did it get pooped?

I was just razzing Dog on the whole capsize thing.


----------



## blt2ski

Smack,

I would have to find the thread here somewhere or the article. But in a nutshell. 20'ish waves IIRC, one filled the inflatable on rear davits with water, another one or two broke the big windows, it my have rolled in the process which may have been the cause of the windows breaking......

anyway. 48north.com ABout 4 years ago, there are some articles backlogged online, most recent 18 or so months the whole rag is online. but this is before that. I also believe the article came out in march or april. as this occured in mid Oct. Spouse and I were talking with another couple about kevin, thinking he was on his way to having fun, little did we know the wed/thursday two days before he was getting rescued by CG as the boat went out from under him!

Marty


----------



## tdw

blackjenner said:


> I think I'll love the Baba. I know the boat is capable of offshore. However, with those windows I don't think I'd be willing to take her offshore without protections for the pilot house windows, such as heavy duty shutters.


BJ,
I took a pretty serious interest in a Baba 40 PH a year or two back. They really are nice things. I remember being concerned about the full keel but Bob Perry loves those boats and reckons they are surprisingly rapid. Yeah, I know, he had a vested interest but BP is usually pretty straight even about the failings of his own designs.

I reckon you mob criticising the look of PHs and DSs need to pull your the heads out of your arses.

Luffe 43DS (I would if I could)










Dehler DS42 (I'll settle for one of these)










Even Ted Brewer had a go...sistership to JRD22's Laurie Anne...lovely boat.










and now getting really really silly but I'd even flick the Luffe for one of these....Bestewind 50










Ugly ? Ptooey !!

Sorry BLJ....but in case you havn't already guessed, no none of these are in your price range.


----------



## blt2ski

now fuzzy, would you quit da droooooooling! it got my puter all wet!

or maybe it was the spray from the waves them there boats are going thru.......hmmmmmm.........

I do like what I am going to guess is the hull design of that last 50'r. otherwise, that Brewer boat does nothing for me, the luff or dehler.....I could handle them...........maybe a jeanneau, the bene DS models not!.......


----------



## Faster

Jeez, td... and you're giving me the gears for mentioning the Sceptre!?!?

Gotta say the Luffe is the one that does it for me among that lot. I'd love to be moving up the coast here in that regardless of the weather! Pretty, pretty, pretty. (is it really a pilothouse? or just a deck salon? - I'm guessing the latter)

The underwater view just gets my heart racing faster still...










I'd never heard of these boats before PCP's thread.. they are something else. Unfortunately t'wasn't I who just cashed in a $50M lottery ticket in Vancouver today...


----------



## tdw

Faster said:


> Jeez, td... and you're giving me the gears for mentioning the Sceptre!?!?
> 
> Gotta say the Luffe is the one that does it for me among that lot. I'd love to be moving up the coast here in that regardless of the weather! Pretty, pretty, pretty. (is it really a pilothouse? or just a deck salon? - I'm guessing the latter)
> 
> The underwater view just gets my heart racing faster still...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'd never heard of these boats before PCP's thread.. they are something else. Unfortunately t'wasn't I who just cashed in a $50M lottery ticket in Vancouver today...


Deck saloon Fast me old cobber, deck saloon. No inside steering, but I can live with that. They are just so pretty. Love 'em. About twice the price of the Dehler.

Not that I'd be at all unhappy to end up with a Scepter btw.

Hey Marty, where's the one your mate is selling ?

Oh yes, the Bestewind ? Twice the price of the Luffe. 

For me the Bestewind is gobsmackingly awesomely gorgeous but at 50' way to much boat for my 'umble needs good sir. So I'll settle for the Luffe. (Dream on rodent dream on). Ok so then the Dehler.

Hey..howabout we start a collection ? Get the Wombat a Luffe ? Worthy cause I'd reckon. I mean, how good it is going to make each and every one of you feel, knowing your humble donation led to your favourite mangy rodent putting to sea in one of those babies. Why you could all go to your rest at peace with the world.

No ?

Oh well, just a thought.


----------



## blt2ski

Jons boat is on the G dock here in Edmonds. Thought it would have been listed by now at MCS in seattle. may have to call him tomorrow and see what is going on. He was not at the YC board meeting tonight. being as it is 20:40 as I wright this on the 2nd of Nov still!

Price wise, the sceptre will be about the same as the luff you sent me info on.............luff......oh boy, if the under body is what faster showed.......if I had 200K, I'd come get the luff in less than a partial tick of the heart! Do not get me wrong, scepre' are nice. but if you can have nice, FAST etc all in one, with a floorplan setup etc. I'll take the faster one ALL the time! The luff looks faster, I am sure it is faster..........

Marty


----------



## tdw

blt2ski said:


> Jons boat is on the G dock here in Edmonds. Thought it would have been listed by now at MCS in seattle. may have to call him tomorrow and see what is going on. He was not at the YC board meeting tonight. being as it is 20:40 as I wright this on the 2nd of Nov still!
> 
> Price wise, the sceptre will be about the same as the luff you sent me info on.............luff......oh boy, if the under body is what faster showed.......if I had 200K, I'd come get the luff in less than a partial tick of the heart! Do not get me wrong, scepre' are nice. but if you can have nice, FAST etc all in one, with a floorplan setup etc. I'll take the faster one ALL the time! The luff looks faster, I am sure it is faster..........
> 
> Marty


If you had $200Grand ? Well at least you'd have a deposit on the Luffe DS43. In recent times I have only seen one of them for sale...at EUR395.000 circa USD500.000 or thereabouts. Thats for a five year old if memory serves me well. Currently there are two Dehlers for sale in Europe (MKII Versions circa 2004 asking EUR225.000). The MKII Dehlers (1998 - 2004 ??) are considerably more expensive than the MKI (1994-1998 ??) but from what I have seen with good reason.

Marty, you and Paulo are the experts at this....hey Halpern why aren't you involved here ?......but looking at the three boats (Sceptre, Dehler, Luffe) I would have to guess that the Dehler would be faster than the Sceptre, particularly in the lighter stuff, while the Luffe would blow the doors off both of them.

I like the Sceptre, always have, but the Dehler has an edge design wise and Dehler build quality particularly in the MKII era was very good indeed. I was on a late model Dehler 43 a couple of months back and the fit and finish was superb. Then again from the images I have seen the Luffe is a further step up again.

Now look, this is getting a bit out of hand 'hijack' wise.

BLJones......would you like the thread to be split into two ?

and Fast....giving me the gears ? Now thats a new one on me. Hey..I wouldn't give you a hard time old buddy old pal.....


----------



## blackjenner

*Raised Salon does not necessarily equal Pilot House*

Right?

I've looked at a lot of boats over the last nine months, before choosing the Baba 35 PH.

The distinction seems fuzzy to some -- and it was to me at first.

To me, a pilot house is a boat that has controls inside the raised section, where one can drive the boat (possibly sail it too) from inside the house. That means steering, engine controls and nav stuff.

A raised salon looks like a pilot house at times, but really isn't -- like the Hardin 45 we were looking at, or the Freedom 39 cat schooner. They had a raised house and big windows but they weren't a pilot house.

Is that right?


----------



## Faster

blackjenner said:


> ....Is that right?


Exactly right!


----------



## jrd22

Black- like you I've always thought of a PH having inside steering and engine controls. Deck Salon/raised salon may or may not have inside controls (I think I have seen some DS with inside station) but most seem to only have an autopilot control at most.


----------



## blackjenner

jrd22 said:


> Black- like you I've always thought of a PH having inside steering and engine controls. Deck Salon/raised salon may or may not have inside controls (I think I have seen some DS with inside station) but most seem to only have an autopilot control at most.


To me, if a salon has inside controls (I do admit an autopilot controls do count to me) then one should have to be able to see outside, right? I mean, one could not sanely have autopilot controls below decks where one cannot see to avoid obstacles.

So my thinking goes.

If your "raised salon", which you can see well enough to navigate your boat, has controls for steering and power, then, I think, that makes it a pilot house.

A raised portion (house) on the boat from which one can pilot the thing.

Or some such...


----------



## bljones

If you can pilot the boat from inside the house it is a pilothouse. if you can only relax inside, then it is a raised salon.


Sorta like a convertible is not necessarily a cabriolet which is not necessarily a roadster which is never a drophead coupe.


----------



## tdw

I think we all agree on this. A Deck Saloon must have inside steering and the ability to see out in order to safely navigate. 

Obviously the Baba qualifies, as does the Brewer, also things like Fishers and the like.

The Dehler can come with inside steering (via a joy stick) but for the life of me I cannot see how you could safely navigate that thing from below. Ergo I reckon it and the Luffe are deck saloons which I judge as a boat with seating raised up in order to allow vision through windows in the deck house but not necessarily full vision forward.

The obvious advantage of Pilot House is getting out of the weather which is a great boon in places like the PNW but possibly just a waste of space in milder climates. I think the Brewer perfected this with the folding seat arrangement while the Sceptre is a real space waster. 

Baba 35 is a nice arrangement for a smaller boat though I think the Baba 40 has the same wasted space problem as the Sceptre. 

Given that what I really want is Deck Saloon seating then I reckon I'm not going to get the perfect Pilot House in under 45'. Ergo I'll compromise and do without the inside steering position or accept the wasted space of the Sceptre.


----------



## blt2ski

Marine Servicenter (Seattle, WA)

Here is a gulf 32 listed in seattle. granted 59K.......BUT, there is always the perverbial offer of under 50K, or 50 including shipping..........

TD, have a call into jon, supposed to call me back in 5 min re his sceptre.

Marty


----------



## bljones

tdw said:


> BLJones......would you like the thread to be split into two ?


Hell no. It's a great discussion and a great collection of pilothouse porn. In any event I am as guilty as anyone else of going off on a tangerine in this thread.

These are starting to grow on me. I need opinions:
1977 Fales Motorsailor Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com


----------



## blt2ski

Fuzzy,

Jon will email me info on the boat when he gets home from a sales trip tomorrow. He also has a fellow coming in from Ontario Ca the 9th to look at it. It may not be around long! I should point out is is about 6pm on the 3rd here in the NW US.

BJ, glad you do not mind the tangents. Sometimes the tangents make the what you are looking for, a better idea on what! even if the luffe is beyond yours and td's checkbook, it does let you drool, and if you find an equal per say at a lower cost....... all the better!

marty


----------



## tdw

bljones said:


> Hell no. It's a great discussion and a great collection of pilothouse porn. In any event I am as guilty as anyone else of going off on a tangerine in this thread.
> 
> These are starting to grow on me. I need opinions:
> 1977 Fales Motorsailor Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com


Mate , we need a home for the four knot ****e boxes of the world.... So we'll let them scurry about at the feet of their swifter companions. 

Look, I know this makes my sense of the aesthetic look pretty dodgey but I too have a soft spot for the Fale. OKOK, so it is one ugly flucker but its ugly in a nice way and as a PNW potterer I reckon you could do worse. We have of course gone way beyond discussion of Pilot Houses and Deck Saloons and are now firmly entrenched in Motor Sailor territory. I have no idea what the underbody of the Fale is like but I am thinking very slow progress under sail alone.

Nonetheless, bucketing down with rain, freezing cold, you'll be warm and dry and cozy in your favourite snug anchorage.

As for the Gulf 32....going to sail rings around the Fale, almost as cozy down below though I'm not that fussed with the bow. Picky picky picky. The Gulf is only $4K more than the Fale and ten years younger ? I tell you , if you can screw a few bucks out the Gulf's price its looking lay down to me.


----------



## Faster

gulf (Sail) Boats For Sale

Lots of Gulf 32s at better prices... Gotta say that I loved Bill Garden's drafting skills, but he had some strange ideas about how a boat ought to look at times...


----------



## bljones

tdw...
yeah, it won't win any beauty contests, but it does have the draft we are looking for, with the advantage of a protected horizontal propshaft. I agree the Gulf has a number of advantages, with one disadvantage- location. No gulfs on the great lakes and few on the east coast. Delivery costs could put a significant dent in the overall budget.

Oh yeah, the Fales is definitely firmly pegged at the redline of the motorsailer-meter, ... but I have seen two for sale that include a spinnaker in the sail inventory!! That's got to be good for getting to 4.5 knots, at least!


----------



## christyleigh

bljones said:


> Delivery costs could put a significant dent in the overall budget.


Especially if you are talking overland transport !!! Although the NC's have some of the highest pilothouses and maybe it won't be an issue for you, make sure you know the bridge height restrictions every inch of the way before you sign anything. I was originally planning to buy an older NC 33, take it home, and refurb in the back yard - Until I got the horror story $$$$$$ of escorts, possible utility line droppings, etc....... Nope, took that possibility right out of the picture.


----------



## tdw

bljones said:


> tdw...
> yeah, it won't win any beauty contests, but it does have the draft we are looking for, with the advantage of a protected horizontal propshaft. I agree the Gulf has a number of advantages, with one disadvantage- location. No gulfs on the great lakes and few on the east coast. Delivery costs could put a significant dent in the overall budget.
> 
> Oh yeah, the Fales is definitely firmly pegged at the redline of the motorsailer-meter, ... but I have seen two for sale that include a spinnaker in the sail inventory!! That's got to be good for getting to 4.5 knots, at least!


BL,

Ack....I didn't look at your locality....its showing that I'm obviously a 'locationist'. Figured everybody in Canada lived in the PNW.....

At one time I costed moving a boat from South Carolina to Australia and/or the US West Coast. The trucking part was not cheap and for a boat in your price range ? location location location......

I realise the purists and the racers would laugh at the Fales but you are under no illusion as to what they are so why not ? Saturday afternoon go for a sail it is not, but Friday evening load her up and get out to a quiet anchorage then she suits the purpose.

That said, I have never seen a Fales up close. All I know about them are the pics I've seen and this thread.

Hey Marty...thanks for doing that, look forward to receiving the info.


----------



## bljones

tdw said:


> I realise the purists and the racers would laugh at the Fales but you are under no illusion as to what they are so why not ? Saturday afternoon go for a sail it is not, but Friday evening load her up and get out to a quiet anchorage then she suits the purpose.


 You get it. This weekend we start eyeballing boats face to face, and we'll see how it goes.


----------



## tdw

bljones said:


> You get it. This weekend we start eyeballing boats face to face, and we'll see how it goes.


Look forward to the feedback. (lead a horticulture indeed....... :laugher...people have been banned for less.....)


----------



## Idiens

*Winches*



tdw said:


> I think we all agree on this. A Deck Saloon must have inside steering and the ability to see out in order to safely navigate.


Inside steering may be ok for the motoring bit but if you have to go outside to crank a winch, is it really a pilot house.


----------



## blt2ski

Now Fuzzy, leave the horticulture jokes out of this, you may get some person named Marty chasing you with his BIG dually crew cab smelly deezal pickumup, with bobcat, trackhoe and other odds and ends in tow, used to horticulture the world!

So with that, where was I..............OUCH.......dang nabbit, that fuzzy made me think.......OWWWWWW..... dang you fuzzy! harumph!


----------



## tdw

Idiens said:


> Inside steering may be ok for the motoring bit but if you have to go outside to crank a winch, is it really a pilot house.


Hey hey...friend Idiens...long time no see....how goes your world ?



> A Deck Saloon must have inside steering and the ability to see out in order to safely navigate.


I typed it and I don't understand it . WTF was I trying to say there ? Maybe it should have read....."navigate and be considered a Pilot House" Not at all sure.

As to your question Idiens....you need to post a pic of your boat.

This is a pic of a Laurent Giles design Salar which from memory has a similar control setup to Idien's Elvstrom.










all control are under the "dodger" as you see here although you cannot see the sheet winches.


----------



## tdw

This is a pic of the cockpit of an Elvstrom Coronet similar to Idien's boat. Not fully enclosed but same as the Salar. I guess this is more a major solid dodger than a pilot house. Possibly best of both worlds but then I've always liked the Salars.



















Which makes me wonder...where are the sail controls on something like a Nauticat ?

Check the Nauticat....winches are aft not in the wheelhouse.

ps - those pics won't load using 'insert pic' tool. If I find some that will I'll amend post but for the moment do a cut and paste of the address.


----------



## Faster

tdw said:


> Which makes me wonder...where are the sail controls on something like a Nauticat ?


The NCs have an 'aft cockpit' behind the house where the winches live along with outside steering.. at least our neighbour's beautifully restored older 37 does.


----------



## tdw

Faster said:


> The NCs have an 'aft cockpit' behind the house where the winches live along with outside steering.. at least our neighbour's beautifully restored older 37 does.


Fast...that's correct, they all do.

Further to Idien's post.....is there anything with a fully enclosed wheelhouse where the sail controls are also inside ?

I confess I never think of controlling the boat from inside when under sail. My thoughts on inside steering tend to begin and end with me early morning, chugging along the Inside Passage to Juneau, wet cold and misty, hot cup of coffee, breakfast cooking, my honey by my side, and we'd sing sing sing.....oh I'm a lumberjack....I'm sorry I don't know what came over me.


----------



## bljones

Okay, that vision of Fawlty Towers on a boat damn near killed the dream for me.


----------



## christyleigh

tdw said:


> I confess I never think of controlling the boat from inside when under sail.


 And.... I'll confess even more... I don't even like driving the boat from inside. The visibility is OK..... but after 20 whatever years of driving outside it's just too confining. All my sail controls are outside in the cockpit and the only sail I would have up is the main for stability and a little drive any way if I was ducking for cover in the pilothouse. It has to be a soaking rain for me to even consider going inside. Since my only Radar display is inside though (not my idea - the original owners) my wife watches that for me in the fog unless it's also raining..... then I give up and come inside


----------



## jrd22

I also only steer from inside if the conditions outside are miserable, and only while motoring. Steady rain, snow, thick fog (like ChristyL above our radar is at the inside helm), very cold - yep, you'll find me inside.


----------



## tdw

bljones said:


> Okay, that vision of Fawlty Towers on a boat damn near killed the dream for me.


not to mention the vision of me in my striped flannel jim jams and possum socks.....


----------



## djodenda

Uh.. that would be Monty Python for the Lumberjack Song


----------



## tdw

djodenda said:


> Uh.. that would be Monty Python for the Lumberjack Song


Well yeah thats true David but hey, I knew where he was coming from and Basil is in there somewhere.

Still and all you'd have thought a Canadian would know better than that wouldn't you ? 

Jonesy...there must be a BITE ME button around here somewhere...


----------



## bljones

The fact that a long-suffering woman is involved in that dreadful tableau is what brought the Fawltys to mind, musical choice notwithstanding. The Python crew had little use for women, unless they were portraying them.


----------



## Idiens

Hi tdw. This is the wheelhouse on a Coronet Elvstrom 38.










The winches are in the doorways and the boat only has one steering position. It is entirely sailable from within the covered cockpit. Granted the rear half is flexible/removable - to let the rare northern sun in, or the heat out in warmer climates - so it might be regarded as a fixed dodger with rear arch to support a canopy. Personally, I call it a wheelhouse.


----------



## tdw

Hi Idiens, thanks for the pic.
Looks like a nice compromise really, especially for Nthrn Europe and the like.
Cheers
Andrew


----------



## bljones

Idiens,
She is very cool looking. Like a Lancia Beta Zagato with a mast.


----------



## Idiens

Beta Zagato is good

Since that early picture, I've added boom roller furling, operated from withing the wheelhouse (a mistake), a baby stay and Hoyt boom for a self tacking jib and a hard top for solar panels.


----------



## Faster

Hey guys.. some interesting DS boats have come up lately on PCP's "Interesting boats" thread.. check it out if you haven't already!


----------



## tdw

*Brewer*

This is a sister ship to JRD's Laurie Anne. She tends towards the Pilot House , almost motor boat or trawler look but I still think its a handsome design both inside and out.


----------



## Waltthesalt

The Rawson 30 pilothouse. On the heavier side and not so fast but a good buy, sturdy can handle a lot of nasty weather.


----------



## PCP

And there is the Pan Oceanic: 38, 43 and 46ft.

I know well the 38ft. A friend of mine that lived in Canada bought one and return to Portugal in it. It his at the nearby marina since then. It is a solid boat that needs a lot of wind to sail properly Of course the owner would say that is a vast exaggeration but he also thought my Bavaria 36 was some kind of racing boat










Pan Oceanic Owners Group - POG

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bljones

Good call, Walt. Hard to find on the East coast, though.


----------



## bljones

If you're gonna post pilothouse porn, at least post low-rent porn! Remember the budget, gentlemen.


----------



## tdw

bljones said:


> If you're gonna post pilothouse porn, at least post low-rent porn! Remember the budget, gentlemen.


Jones old man, might I remind you....

Quote:

 Originally Posted by *tdw*  
_BLJones......would you like the thread to be split into two ?
_




> Hell no. It's a great discussion and a great collection of pilothouse porn. In any event I am as guilty as anyone else of going off on a tangerine in this thread.


So you just lie back and think of England......


----------



## jrd22

Our version of the Brewer 40PH pictured above (known either as the Three Seas 40 or Puget Pilot 40) has the wheel and electric panel swapped and our galley extends the full length of the salon on the stb side with a huge freezer/fridge (10 + 4 cu. ft.). Nav station just forward and down across from stateroom. 23,000 lb displacement, 35' waterline, large main (17' foot), ours is cutter rigged with roller furling on both headsails, very well built, smallish cockpit but comfortable. Sails well, good speed, doesn't point as well as I would like, probably would do much better without the staysail and with a larger genoa (125% high clew).


----------



## bljones

tdw said:


> Jones old man, might I remind you....
> 
> Quote:
> 
> Originally Posted by *tdw*
> _BLJones......would you like the thread to be split into two ?
> _
> 
> 
> So you just lie back and think of England......


Don't confuse me with facts, wombat, it gets in the way of righteous indignation.


----------



## tdw

bljones said:


> Don't confuse me with facts, wombat, it gets in the way of righteous indignation.


well my good man you are free to be as righteously indigant as you wish but for now your indignation has been overwhelmed by superior forces....or to quote me old cobber Billy Bob Shakespeare hisself

"There is a tide in the affairs of men.
Which, taken at the flood, leads on to fortune;
Omitted, all the voyage of their life
Is bound in shallows and in miseries.
On such a full sea are we now afloat,
And we must take the current when it serves,
Or lose our ventures."


----------



## blt2ski

tdw said:


> well my good man you are free to be as righteously indigant as you wish but for now your indignation has been overwhelmed by superior forces....or to quote me old cobber Billy Bob Shakespeare hisself
> 
> "There is a tide in the affairs of men.
> Which, taken at the flood, leads on to fortune;
> Omitted, all the voyage of their life
> Is bound in shallows and in miseries.
> On such a full sea are we now afloat,
> And we must take the current when it serves,
> Or lose our ventures."


BJ,

Looks like you got yourself hit with 50 lashes with a wet fuzzy!:laugher:laugher


----------



## PCP

Andrews, I have found those pictures, the ones from the Arcona 40 DS. As I have said, a fast boat with a nice and comfortable interior. I will post them here and not on the interesting sailboats thread because this boat is already out of production (6 or seven years ago) and you can only find it on the used market.














































Regards

Paulo


----------



## bljones

PCP, thanks- that is a beautiful addition to this thread.


----------



## bljones

tdw said:


> well my good man you are free to be as righteously indigant as you wish but for now your indignation has been overwhelmed by superior forces....or to quote me old cobber Billy Bob Shakespeare hisself
> 
> "There is a tide in the affairs of men.
> Which, taken at the flood, leads on to fortune;
> Omitted, all the voyage of their life
> Is bound in shallows and in miseries.
> On such a full sea are we now afloat,
> And we must take the current when it serves,
> Or lose our ventures."


To dispel the notion that I might be illiterate (I know exactly who my father is, thank you, ) I offer a retort from Billy's contemporary, Frankie B. :

"The worst men often give the best advice."


----------



## tdw

bljones said:


> PCP, thanks- that is a beautiful addition to this thread.


Oh sure Jones...now you suck up to the other fella.....bloody cheek....and after all those nice things I said about the Fales......(hey did you go see the O'day ?)

Paulo......did you post pics ? I am not seeing them....is that me or you ?


----------



## bljones

Bit of a story behind the o'day fuzzy. I'm waiting for the borker to get back to me. apparently he is not sure if the owner still owns the boat.


----------



## PCP

It seems that Bljones can see them so it must be you. Do you need spectacles? 

Regards

Paulo


----------



## tdw

PCP said:


> It seems that Bljones can see them so it must be you. Do you need spectacles?
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


they must have needed a clean.....now I see them....

wow....Oh man, that is nice. How on earth did they manage all that in 40' ? Galley could be a tad larger and you'd need a good safety strap to hold you in place at sea but I don't think I could come up with any other major complaints. Cockpit seats a bit short ? Could be extended for cruising with a flap removeable for racing. Addresses the lack of mainsheet traveller in the Dehler, interestingly enough uses the Dehler style wheel.

Would love to see the underwater profile but the hull looks the same as the standard Arcona 40 which dates back to the same era.

http://www.arconayachts.com/tests/400/Arcona_400_Test_ST.pdf










Now maybe the DS has more tankage but my beef with the A40 standard as with other Arconas remains. 250 litres of water ? Rubbish.

Given that I have never seen one for sale anywhere then I'm guessing they would be expensive second hand. EUR300,000 plus ? 2004 era Dehler DS have current asking price EUR225,000 so definitely the Arcona would be more than that.

I think we are seeing a priority list developing.....

Way Too Big, Way Too expensive but serious DS Porn - Bestewind 50

Too Big , Too Expensive but still DS Porn - Luffe 43 DS

Practical Machine (tankage notwithstanding) but still a financial fantasy - Arcona 40 DS

Getting there but still a major sqeeze - Dehler DS 41 Mark II

Getting there but still a major sqeeze - Nordship 38/40 pre 2000

Practical Choice though a MK II would be better - Dehler DS41 Mark I

My suspicion is that the Dehler is still the go for us. A Mark II if we can find the money but otherwise a MkI, late nineties. While not as quick as some other options I'm guessing the Dehler has better load carrying capacity and would be the more suited option for long term cruising. The Dehler certainly has acceptable tankage (nearly twice the Arcona e.g.) and this is an important consideration.

Paulo, thank you so much for searching out those images. Good man.

One other point....I'm seeing that a lot of these European ladies are utterly superb but in many ways are designed for a typical European use.....summer holiday cuise (6 - 8 weeks) plus weekends. Easy access to fuel and water in the main, so no great need for long term self sufficiency. Capable sea boats not doubt but not as hard core as , say, a Sceptre.


----------



## PCP

tdw said:


> ..
> 
> Would love to see the underwater profile but the hull looks the same as the standard Arcona 40 which dates back to the same era.
> 
> ..
> 
> Now maybe the DS has more tankage but my beef with the A40 standard as with other Arconas remains. 250 litres of water ? Rubbish.
> 
> Given that I have never seen one for sale anywhere then I'm guessing they would be expensive second hand. EUR300,000 plus ? 2004 era Dehler DS have current asking price EUR225,000 so definitely the Arcona would be more than that.
> 
> I think we are seeing a priority list developing.....
> 
> .....
> 
> Practical Machine (tankage notwithstanding) but still a financial fantasy - Arcona 40 DS
> 
> Getting there but still a major sqeeze - Dehler DS 41 Mark II
> 
> Getting there but still a major sqeeze - Nordship 38/40 pre 2000
> 
> Practical Choice though a MK II would be better - Dehler DS41 Mark I
> 
> My suspicion is that the Dehler is still the go for us. A Mark II if we can find the money but otherwise a MkI, late nineties. While not as quick as some other options I'm guessing the Dehler has better load carrying capacity and would be the more suited option for long term cruising. The Dehler certainly has acceptable tankage (nearly twice the Arcona e.g.) and this is an important consideration.
> ....
> One other point....I'm seeing that a lot of these European ladies are utterly superb but in many ways are designed for a typical European use.....summer holiday cuise (6 - 8 weeks) plus weekends. Easy access to fuel and water in the main, so no great need for long term self sufficiency. Capable sea boats not doubt but not as hard core as , say, a Sceptre.


About the water, the Arcona 40 is a cruiser racer, there are guys that use it for just club racing and some short holly-days, so why pay for what you don't need. All those boats can have a supplementary 100L water tank as an option.

The Arcona 40Ds had in standard specification 400L of water and 300L of fuel.

The CR 40Ds had 265L of fuel and 335L of water and had a better Ballast/displacement ratio (42% to 36%). Both are high ballast ratios, but the CR has an excellent stability curve, in what regards safety with almost no inverted stability.

I can post tomorrow the Arcona DS 40 underwater profile

The Dehler Ds 41 is pretty much the same type of boat. The carrying load should be similar. The difference is on the finish. These boats are much more expensive and the interior quality is much better.

I don't understand why you don't put the CR40 Ds on that list. It was a more expensive boat than the Arcona but it was sold in higher numbers and that means something about its quality. You can find some at attractive prices (considering the initial price). Look at this one and at the engine hours:

CR Yachts CR 400 DS used boat for sale. The Yacht Market online boat sales and charters.

I don't know about a 2000 Nordship 38ft. The previous model had a great interior but was really slow and the outside looks where kind of old.

nordship 38 DS

Another one that you can put in that list of yours is the Vancouver 38DS made by Nordshore. Actually the boat looked better in the water than in the photos. The interior is worse (design) than the older Nordship, but I believe the boat was faster and it was a really seaworthy boat and was built like a tank.

Vancouver 38
Vancouver 38 Pilothouse For Sale - GBP 134,950 - Medway, UK - Boatshop24.co.uk

I think I can add some more to that list, but its late. Perhaps tomorrow

Regards

Paulo


----------



## tdw

Paulo, Thanks again.

I keep coming back to the Dehler because I see in them a compromise that really suits our specific needs and wants.

Sure I like the CR, as I do the Vancouver and the Spectre but for me they all have a failing that is one our current boat also has and which we've decided is one of our key features. That is, sleeping comfort at anchor. I want room to wiggle my toes without the need to sleep with my head hanging over the end of the berth and by preference I'd like that berth to be up front.

Exhibit A - Dehler DS41










Exhibit B - CR


----------



## omaho5

*Pilot house boat*

Look at the Cape Dory 30 PH.


----------



## tdw

omaho5 said:


> Look at the Cape Dory 30 PH.


Do you mean this ? Cape Dory 300MS



















CDSOA, Inc. -- CD300MS


----------



## PCP

tdw said:


> ..
> Sure I like the CR, as I do the Vancouver and the Spectre but for me they all have a failing that is one our current boat also has and which we've decided is one of our key features. That is, sleeping comfort at anchor. I want room to wiggle my toes without the need to sleep with my head hanging over the end of the berth and by preference I'd like that berth to be up front.


I understand what you mean, but that picture from the CR looks really bad. Here looks a lot bigger










But you are right, the main CR cabin is the one in the back, and that one is a very beautiful one. That's the version I like more, but I have no pictures of this one here. That's a very creative and unusual cabin:










On the more traditional version you havel also a big cabin, but on the other one (above) you have more space for sitting and a better access for the two occupants.

It has also a nice and warm natural illumination.

This one is the "traditional" version, but you can see the "light".










http://www.cryachts.se/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=88

Regards

Paulo


----------



## omaho5

*Pilot house*

Sorry, I meant the CD PH.


----------



## PCP

And there they are, the underwater profile of the Arcona 40Ds and the one from CR40 DS:










And some images of that CR with the back cabin that I was talking about:














































Regards

Paulo


----------



## bljones

Slick bottle storage in the table pedestal.


----------



## jrd22

Beautiful interior and it looks like the CR would have "adequate" visibility from inside for steering, hard to tell. I would much prefer the CR vs the Arcona just because of the shaft vs saildrive, but that's just me. In heavy weather with no staysail what is the preferred sail arrangement, reefed main alone? Or do you unfurl the genoa fully and drop and then raise a storm jib? 

Still a glaring lack of grab rails, but I guess I could trade those for that aft room and the wine rack)


----------



## PCP

Yes, on this one I agree about the grab rails .

About this kind of rig and heavy weather, the classical solution (that all builders offer as an option) is a removable staysail. This way it's much easier to tack with the genoa (especially if you are alone) and if bad weather is on the way it is not difficult to mount the stay and put there a storm sail, if it is that bad.

Another option (more for coastal cruising with some offshore passages) is a thing called storm bag, a sail that is easily mounted over the Genoa and pulled by the spinnaker halyard.

Anyway, this kind of semi-custom boats can have, if you want it, a cutter rig, but as you know that will imply the use of runners and a more complicated to use rig and also a slightly slower boat.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Faster

Great stuff, Paulo.. thanks again

Definitely a long way from "Motorsailer" with these two!....


----------



## tdw

jrd22 said:


> Beautiful interior and it looks like the CR would have "adequate" visibility from inside for steering, hard to tell. I would much prefer the CR vs the Arcona just because of the shaft vs saildrive, but that's just me. In heavy weather with no staysail what is the preferred sail arrangement, reefed main alone? Or do you unfurl the genoa fully and drop and then raise a storm jib?
> 
> Still a glaring lack of grab rails, but I guess I could trade those for that aft room and the wine rack)


Now now JRD.....you are typing in 12 point sarcasm again.....

The Wombet and I were looking at a particular boat in Sydney recently and on first viewing W had that criticism as well , at least from the pics. Funnily enough though, when we went on board she actually had handholds a plenty and very intelligently placed. They were simply not obvious in the pics.

I think some of these beauties may well be the the same plus I figure that in most cases handholds are pretty easy things to add on.

Oh yes, and I'd think that on the Arcona at least a removeable inner forestay for a staysail would be the most likely option wouldn't it ?

Me, I have no serious beef with saildrives, properly maintained.

Paulo,

Re the CR aft cabin.....I'd love to see one of those things up close and personal. My preference would be to sleep the other way round and maybe there is enough space. I've only seen one of this kind of berth myself and that was on a Hunter from memory. I found it somewhat claustrophobic. The problem of 'room to move' also comes to mind. Even aging Wombats get a bit frisky every now and then. 

Do you know when the Arcona DS was first produced ? She is very Dehlerish even underwater. The Dehler was last produced in 2004, I wonder whether Arcona saw a niche that needed filling but in the end the pricing killed it. It seems in reality that even in colder climates Deck Saloons and Pilot Houses inhabit a very limited sector.

I do like the CR, no doubt she is a lovely boat though for me she falls behind the Luffe/Arcona/Dehler as eye candy. Looking at the respective layouts and summing up how we exist on board those three still win out for me.

Out on the water, I'm guessing that the Luffe and the Dehler would be the simplest to sail particularly if both were fitted with self tacking headsails, I think that is an option on the Luffe and standard on the Dehler. I know that will not fit in with your racing ethic but I'd be happy enough.


----------



## jrd22

Sarcasm? Me, not a chance:laugher .
I suspect you're right Andrew, there simply must be handholds and grab rails. They are probably just cleverly hidden like the wine storage rack  .

There are times (generally in the middle of a project that is taking 4 times longer than planned, recently it was resealing PH side windows) when I daydream about buying an almost new boat (especially with Paulo posting all these beautiful pics). But then I snap back into reality and remember just how lucky I am to have the boat I have now!


----------



## bljones

PCP said:


>


A good point was brought up about visibility. Looking at the inside helm, how the hell does anybody under 7'3" see out while sitting? Is the seat telescopic? is there a periscope?


----------



## bljones

BTW, note the difference between Scandinavian publicity photos and American marketing pics- in the US the pics would be taken in full sun with palm trees in the background, a rugged 40-ish guy with good hair at the helm and a younger blonde in a bikini lounging with a drink. In Scandinavia they apparently pair prince Philip on the helm with the lead singer of ABBA riding shotgun on a gloomy fall day.


----------



## jrd22

bljones said:


> BTW, note the difference between Scandinavian publicity photos and American marketing pics- in the US the pics would be taken in full sun with palm trees in the background, a rugged 40-ish guy with good hair at the helm and a younger blonde in a bikini lounging with a drink. In Scandinavia they apparently pair prince Philip on the helm with the lead singer of ABBA riding shotgun on a gloomy fall day.


LOL, so true BL.
Regarding visibility, it's almost impossible to tell until you are actually aboard. Even if you are able to sight horizontally out the windscreen windows from the inside helm, in many boats you can't see over the bow very well, even with the top of your head plastered against the headliner, so you can't see the water ahead for about 1-200 yards (I like to be able to see what's in front of me, lot's of logs here). The two Sceptre's that I have been on were this way, although we were not underway so it may not be as limited as it seemed and I haven't heard that this is a problem with them. It's a compromise, the lower the top of the house, the better the visibility from the cockpit, but the inside helm suffers. At least the example above has engine guages and controls and a wheel so I would assume it is a true pilothouse with decent visibility.


----------



## tdw

bljones said:


> BTW, note the difference between Scandinavian publicity photos and American marketing pics- in the US the pics would be taken in full sun with palm trees in the background, a rugged 40-ish guy with good hair at the helm and a younger blonde in a bikini lounging with a drink. In Scandinavia they apparently pair prince Philip on the helm with the lead singer of ABBA riding shotgun on a gloomy fall day.


and it doesn't look like the lead singer of Abba has weathered the storm all that well.....

ref - visibility.......its all a matter of scale.....the Arcona only has 4'3" head room.....

Jonesy , the thought did cross my mind but I think it is looks worse than it is, camera angle and all that, but I seriously doubt a person of average height could see ahead while seated.

John D....yes you are lucky. but lets face it, even a new boat will need maintenance in a year or so.

Meant to say......The Dehler most definitely has bugger all visibility forward from inside. I spoke with one potential buyer and that was the reason they looked elsewhere. They were btw PNWers.


----------



## PCP

tdw said:


> ...
> 
> Do you know when the Arcona DS was first produced ? She is very Dehlerish even underwater. The Dehler was last produced in 2004, I wonder whether Arcona saw a niche that needed filling but in the end the pricing killed it. It seems in reality that even in colder climates Deck Saloons and Pilot Houses inhabit a very limited sector.
> 
> ...


Not really, but I have read a comparative test sail between the two boats in 2002 so I believe that they where new on the market around that time.

There is a very small market for DS in Europe, so small that Hanse, in 2002 tried to market an affordable DS, the 371DS and give up only one or two years later:

Hanse Yachts

To give you an idea, since 2002 I was trying to see the Dehler 41DS and asked to the factory where (in what European boat show) could I see the boat. I couldn't. The boat was still in production but they were not making any sales, so they were not interested in showing the boat.

The only ones that are making relatively small Deck-saloons or pilot-houses (with the exception of Southerly, that still makes a nice 35ft and a nicer 42ft) are Nordic countries and even on those it is a small market for very small companies. The bigger, like Halberg-Rassy, Najad, Malo, Arcona, X-yachts have not them in their line. I guess that Europeans find that sailing is to be made on the open, even in cold climates.

In Europe almost the only ones that are interested in Deck-saloons/pilot-houses are the ones that want to sail all year and travel extensively in all seasons (and not all of them) and that market is dominated mostly by aluminum boats, and there you will have mostly pilot houses and not really pilot houses in the American sense (a big house with very good visibility) but some limited vision forward (that will be a lot better while sailing) and a good lateral vision. This compromise had to do not only with the sailing performance of the boat but also with the fact that big lateral and mostly frontal almost vertical "glass surfaces" constitute a liability in a boat that is designed to travel with all kinds of weather.

The exception are the RM series (that I have posted in the "interesting sailboats" thread). They are just a bit more expensive than big production boats, and are that kind of European pilot-house boats. They are boats made to travel fast for a long time and are by far the most viable European solution for the ones that want that kind of boat. That shows in its sales and in their the growing production, as well as in the high price and difficulty in finding them on the used market.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Idiens

One difference between a pilot house and a deck saloon, for conning a boat, is being able to keep watch over 360 without leaving the helm. The visibility aft on a lot of DS is poor, especially when the hatch is closed to keep the weather out. Also the DS helm visibility is usually not good enough to moor the boat. The result is having to pay for two helming positions, and end up using only one of them.


----------



## PCP

Idiens said:


> One difference between a pilot house and a deck saloon, for conning a boat, is being able to keep watch over 360 without leaving the helm. The visibility aft on a lot of DS is poor, especially when the hatch is closed to keep the weather out. Also the DS helm visibility is usually not good enough to moor the boat. The result is having to pay for two helming positions, and end up using only one of them.


To me the difference between real deck-saloons (there are boats called DS that are not really DS boats, like the DS jeanneau) and pilot houses is that while the Deck-saloon has the saloon and the chart table up (and second steering position) with a view, on a pilot house you have the saloon down (without a view) and only the chart table up. There are deck-saloons with excellent all around view and pilot houses with some limited forward vision.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## blt2ski

BJ,

A look at a local broker popped up two I think recent listings of some PH boats for you
Gulf 32
Nauticat 33

The gulf is liste at about 58K, a bit above your price IIRC a few weeks back, and the naticat is 99k, probably a BUNCH over, but.........worth thinking and looking at, Maybe you and fuzzy can come over and look that over at the same time as he comes up to look at another boat this dealer has listed........maybe I should go into boat brokering........woner what my lack of cut will be?

marty


----------



## Faster

Came across this one the other day.. Mark Ellis is a recognized designer who crosses the power/sail boundaries with some success... he's responsible for the Nonsuch and Niagara series among others.(eg Aloha 32)

The Bruckman 50 addresses the visibility from the inside helm, I would think, of course at the expense of sleekness, but within the genre I think this one manages to still be a 'handsome' boat.

Check it out:










Bruckmann 50


----------



## tdw

Wow...Jonesy.....sell everything including your soul and buy the Nauticat. Hard to say whether you could screw a deal out of them cos NCs are usually pretty popular but if you presume worse case scenario at $90.000 that is pretty damn good.

Nauticats may not be the greatest of sailing boats but they have a fine reputation and would surely make a perfect PNW cruiser.



blt2ski said:


> BJ,
> 
> A look at a local broker popped up two I think recent listings of some PH boats for you
> Gulf 32
> Nauticat 33
> 
> The gulf is liste at about 58K, a bit above your price IIRC a few weeks back, and the naticat is 99k, probably a BUNCH over, but.........worth thinking and looking at, Maybe you and fuzzy can come over and look that over at the same time as he comes up to look at another boat this dealer has listed........maybe I should go into boat brokering........woner what my lack of cut will be?
> 
> marty


----------



## tdw

Faster said:


> Came across this one the other day.. Mark Ellis is a recognized designer who crosses the power/sail boundaries with some success... he's responsible for the Nonsuch and Niagara series among others.(eg Aloha 32)
> 
> The Bruckman 50 addresses the visibility from the inside helm, I would think, of course at the expense of sleekness, but within the genre I think this one manages to still be a 'handsome' boat.
> 
> Check it out:
> 
> Bruckmann 50


Not bad, not bad at all. Very definitely Motor Sailor rather than DS or PH but other than that unbuilt Perry 49 thats about as handsome as I have seen. I think I'd still prefer the Perry though.

Paulo...I think I'd disagree with you re the defintion. For me Pilot House simply means inside helm position and Deck Saloon simply that. To support my argument think Fairway's Fisher. Surely you could only call those things Pilot Houses. Yes there are some that blur the edges. My lovely DS41 is one classic example. Very much a DS yet can have inside steering. Sceptre otoh blurs it a bit the other way I guess...full helm position inside but still more DS than PH.

Then again what really constitutes a motor sailor in this day and age.

Hey...can we give this away and discuss something simple like euthenasia or global warming ?


----------



## tdw

and just in case we have poor memory...

Perry's contribution....



















Fisher 37


----------



## PCP

tdw said:


> ..
> 
> Paulo...I think I'd disagree with you re the defintion. For me Pilot House simply means inside helm position and Deck Saloon simply that. To support my argument think Fairway's Fisher. Surely you could only call those things Pilot Houses. Yes there are some that blur the edges. My lovely DS41 is one classic example. Very much a DS yet can have inside steering. Sceptre otoh blurs it a bit the other way I guess...full helm position inside but still more DS than PH.
> 
> ...


 So on the Nauticat 385, that has an inside steering position, but also a raised saloon, to do you call it a pilot house or a deck saloon? They call it a pilot house.

Boat info pilothouse

On the Dehler 41ds you can also have an inside second steering post at the chart table, and they call it a deck saloon.

What I have said is that if the boat has only a raised pilot house, than it is a pilot house boat, if the boat has a raised saloon, even if it has also a second steering position on the chart table, than, it is a deck saloon. What is your disagreement with that definition?

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bljones

I met Mark Ellis a couple of years ago in Port Credit- he was launching a steel cat-ketch. He is an interesting NA.
Looking at the Bruckman 50, it looks a lot like a Gulf 32 blown up 150%.

Speaking of Nauticats, BIG price reduction on this one... which makes me wonder why:

1985 Nauticat Motorsailer Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com


----------



## jrd22

PCP said:


> So on the Nauticat 385, that has an inside steering position, but also a raised saloon, to do you call it a pilot house or a deck saloon? They call it a pilot house.
> 
> Boat info pilothouse
> 
> On the Dehler 41ds you can also have an inside second steering post at the chart table, and they call it a deck saloon.
> 
> What I have said is that if the boat has only a raised pilot house, than it is a pilot house boat, if the boat has a raised saloon, even if it has also a second steering position on the chart table, than, it is a deck saloon. What is your disagreement with that definition?
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


In my opinion Paulo, the problem of definition is that the terms have evolved over the years to mean different things in different models (confusing). Originally, motorsailors, were any design that had inside steering and many were much more "motor" than "sail". Later, designers that felt there was a market for sailboats with an inside helm didn't want the stigma attached to the slow/non sailing motorsailor so they started marketing their designs as Pilothouse sailboats. Fairly recently the Decksaloons have blurred the picture even further to the point where as you correctly point out you can have complete mingling of design components labelled as any of the three. Personally, I refer to a boat that can sail but was designed primarily to motor as a motorsailor and a sailboat (by hull and rig design) with two complete helms (inside and cockpit, wheel steering and engine controls at both) a pilothouse (irregardless of where saloon is located, ours was sold as a Pilothouse (1988) and has the dinette,galley and inside helm up). The Decksaloon (another marketing separation from the dreaded "motorsailor"?) to my way of thinking obviously has the dinette/saloon up to take advantage of light and view but whether or not it has any type of inside helm seems to be a variable depending on make/model/options.

This is just my own understanding of the different terms and the evolution, not meant to be the definitive historical progression  .


----------



## tdw

Paulo,
My thinking was that yes your definition of a Pilot House is correct but too limiting. I mean that e.g. the Fisher is to me a Pilot House (incorporating a saloon) while the Dehler is a Deck Saloon even though it theoretically can be steered from below. I say theoretically cos the things have bugger all forward vision.
John (jrd) puts it well. The lines are simply too blurred to acurately read. 
Reality is that if you go back to the 1950s and earlier and showed them a 40' Beneteau or Bavaria with a 50hp donk the sailors of that time would have said 'Motor Sailor' with or without an inside steering position. Modern motors of course are so much lighter than in the old days so we can have our cake and eat it. 
Even in the past 20 odd years.....I could re-engine the Womboat today and end up with 10 extra horses and slightly less weight. Thats without even thinking turbo.
Cheers
Andrew



PCP said:


> So on the Nauticat 385, that has an inside steering position, but also a raised saloon, to do you call it a pilot house or a deck saloon? They call it a pilot house.
> 
> Boat info pilothouse
> 
> On the Dehler 41ds you can also have an inside second steering post at the chart table, and they call it a deck saloon.
> 
> What I have said is that if the boat has only a raised pilot house, than it is a pilot house boat, if the boat has a raised saloon, even if it has also a second steering position on the chart table, than, it is a deck saloon. What is your disagreement with that definition?
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


----------



## PCP

Talking about pilot houses, there is a new one that raised some interest in Europe....and that I think that would have raised a lot more on the American market. It is a small boat (8M), a coastal one and it is an inexpensive boat (about 50 000€). It's the Triaskell














































Regards

Paulo


----------



## Cabatach126

*HR Rasmus*

May be worth thinking about

decent sized engine but sails much better than a motor sailor

Hard top version with back half canopy is almost as good as a motor sailor cabin and certainly ticks the indoor helm position box

draft less than 5'

Fits the budget over here anyway


----------



## PCP

jrd22 said:


> In my opinion Paulo, the problem of definition is that the terms have evolved over the years to mean different things in different models (confusing). Originally, motorsailors, were any design that had inside steering and many were much more "motor" than "sail". Later, designers that felt there was a market for sailboats with an inside helm didn't want the stigma attached to the slow/non sailing motorsailor so they started marketing their designs as Pilothouse sailboats. Fairly recently the Decksaloons have blurred the picture even further to the point where as you correctly point out you can have complete mingling of design components labelled as any of the three. Personally, I refer to a boat that can sail but was designed primarily to motor as a motorsailor and a sailboat (by hull and rig design) with two complete helms (inside and cockpit, wheel steering and engine controls at both) a pilothouse (irregardless of where saloon is located, ours was sold as a Pilothouse (1988) and has the dinette,galley and inside helm up). The Decksaloon (another marketing separation from the dreaded "motorsailor"?) to my way of thinking obviously has the dinette/saloon up to take advantage of light and view but whether or not it has any type of inside helm seems to be a variable depending on make/model/options.
> 
> This is just my own understanding of the different terms and the evolution, not meant to be the definitive historical progression  .


Yes, I agree. Much more important than the definition of pilothouse/decksaloon is the definition of Sailing boat/Motorsailor. Modern sailboats sail much faster than older sailboats, especially on light winds.I guess that compared with boats from the 80's and 90's all European Decksaloons/pilothouses are sailing boats, with the exception of older designs still in production, like the Fisher, or the old line of Nauticats. On the States there are some modern designs that would better be named as Motorsailors.

I also would like to point out that in Europe the Decksaloon designation is more popular while in the USA it seems that the Pilothouse designation is more used and I am referring to boats with a raised saloon and an inside second steering position. To complicate things, now they also call a decksaloon to boats that doesn't have neither a raised saloon nor an inside steering station, like the Jeanneau DS, or the Bavaria Vision.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## dwilbar

Have always considered a Nauticat a great moored live aboard for the islands. As dinghies are the vehicle, has anyone figured out an easy way to get on and off, given relatively high freeboard, and no walkthru? Thanks, Dave


----------



## christyleigh

Dave,

If you mean by "no walkthru" .... no walkthru transom then you are surely correct..... and I had them on my last 2 boats and miss them badly  As for boarding you can see in my picture the Folded Up transom ladder (standard on all Nauticats I know of) that when folded down goes well into the water for an 'easy'  2 story climb . Also on each side there is the standard, as in most boats, the 'lifeline gate' walkthru as you can also see. I also have a 6' SS ladder that has hooks on it for boarding from the bow pulpit that I made a removable mount for that attaches to the lifeline stanchions at the side gates for boarding without fear of heights issues  - no pictures of that.


----------



## R29Willow

*Small Gulf Motorsailors*



Faster said:


> Right you are, Marty... here it is
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More in line with the 29 than the Garden designed 32 I'd say.


I thought I wanted one of these for a while when I was shopping so I dug quite a bit into their pedigree. Most likely story I have been able to piece together is the Newport 27 (NOT 28) hull mold was used to make the Gulf 27, and the same hull was extended to make the 29.

Newport 27 was an ok little boat but doesn't set the world on fire performance wise, and the Gulf is heavier.

Still neat, maybe I'll get one when I'm 80. 
(and transplant the pilothouse deck onto a faster boat!)


----------



## Faster

R29Willow said:


> .....Still neat, maybe I'll get one when I'm 80.
> (and transplant the pilothouse deck onto a faster boat!)


You're a long way from 80, young fella!  (I oughta know!)


----------



## beiland

*Alden or Rhodes*

Looks like quite a long subject thread here on motorsailers, a long time interest of mine.

But when I did a search of the subject thread itself I got no hits for the subject words Alden or Rhodes ?? 

Brian


----------

