# Nav Lights for Inflatable Dinghy



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

I need Nav Lights for my new dinghy. I've had my eye on this, and it's starting to appear with some discounted (but still high) prices:

Any comments based on experience with this? Amazon has a couple reviewers mentioning a flimsy stern pole, and poor mounting of the pole on the transom. I can imagine that the long lever arm of the pole puts a huge torque on the transom mount, and with the top-heavy pole with the light on it, wave action can create a lot of torque on the pole:

NAVISAFE | Navisafe Dinghy Complete


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

I use a LEG all around white mounted on top of the OB. It's about 7" or 8 inches long and sits in a socket which is glued to the top of the OB. I don't leave it on but pop it into the socket in the evening. I think one all around is all you need in a small boat like a dink.

https://www.defender.com/product3.j...avigation-light&path=-1|294|2312556&id=166455


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

No experience with it, but I think spending money on a bow light is totally unnecessary. It seems half the dinghies don't seem to have any lights. The only objection I have to a white light is that it reduces one's night vision and makes one more likely to get in an accident. The only solution is to get it high on a pole, all of which are flimsy.


----------



## Snorri (Oct 23, 2017)

Read it and weep tears of joy

http://www.saltysailors.com/articles-cruising/a_brilliantly_dumb_idea.html#.WiPsImJOmEc


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> No experience with it, but I think spending money on a bow light is totally unnecessary. It seems half the dinghies don't seem to have any lights. The only objection I have to a white light is that it reduces one's night vision and makes one more likely to get in an accident. The only solution is to get it high on a pole, all of which are flimsy.


I find the all around white on the OB is not much a problem especially forward... Dark "things" at night are hard to see... including other dinks without lights. I don't know that not having a light improves your night vision significantly.

Maybe a small low output flashing blue all around would be something for dinks... It's not in colregs.... but maybe it should be some thing allowed for boats under 12' for example. It could a stick on LED puck sort of thing.

++++

Actually it IS hard to sort out lights w/o moon light when there is a sea of them... houses, cars, street lights. and of course boat lights. When you are moving through the water low down in a dink... hulls are dark and eclipse lights as well. It can be very disorienting. And the guy motoring into the harbor shines a super bright search light at you! That will kill your night vision/adaptation.


----------



## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Got a tri light in st Martin which is solar powered and glued to dinghy engine. Guy hawked them from a dinghy. Costed ~$30.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SanderO said:


> ....I don't know that not having a light improves your night vision significantly.......


It's the other way around. White light destroys your night vision, which takes 15-20 mins to get back. Likely, you're to your destination by then. If you have the light traditionally mounted on the stern, about 2 feet high, it's impossible not to be night blinded, unless you make zero effort to keep a watch from abaft the helm.

Your best night vision, is just off center, btw. Glance about 5 degrees away from what you want to see and it will become much easier from your periphery. Thankfully, Uncle Sam teaches you that before he sends you into the woods with a rifle at night.


----------



## Davy J (Mar 25, 2017)

Clamp-on set from wally world $27.74:

_Shoreline-Marine-Combo-Clamp-On-LED-Light_

I rigged a mount glued to the bow and the bow light can be removed easily.

Originally had one of those suction cup stern lights mounted on top of the outboard. Knocked it off one too many times. The clamp-on pole is an improvement.


----------



## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Problem with a blue strobe is it is in the colregs, but means law enforcement or other government vessel. I could see the cg getting their knickers more in a twist over that then no light at all.

What about a good quality head lamp? I think it technically meets the requirements, i have a water proof Black Diamond with a 55 meter beam and both red and green settings for minimal impact on night vision.


----------



## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

In Florida (Keys), the FWC will cite/fine you if your dinghy's all-around white light is not at a specific (?) height from the water or is blocked by any contents or passengers from showing a complete 360° visible pattern. 
Ive witnessed (Boot Key / Marathon) more than just a few operators being cited for having their all-around white light mounted to the top of their outboard engines .... too low to be in strict compliance. One or two had 'solar' patio-type lights mounted on their OBs, weren't USCG certified to have sufficient illumination to meet the '2-mile' requirement; and of course, were cited. 
This was a just few years ago when the FWC was citing any and all possible infractions of Florida's boating laws, which was immediately followed by a mass uprising by visiting boaters, and which resulted in one or two mass public meetings to _educate the 'public'_ on the absolute precision needed for complete and total compliance and without any possible 'deviation' from 'the rules'.


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> It's the other way around. White light destroys your night vision, which takes 15-20 mins to get back. Likely, you're to your destination by then. If you have the light traditionally mounted on the stern, about 2 feet high, it's impossible not to be night blinded, unless you make zero effort to keep a watch from abaft the helm.
> 
> Your best night vision, is just off center, btw. Glance about 5 degrees away from what you want to see and it will become much easier from your periphery. Thankfully, Uncle Sam teaches you that before he sends you into the woods with a rifle at night.


This is all true... except in real world situations you don't need optimized night vision... but simply be able to pick out boats.... dark and moored, unoccupied moorings and fish trap floats... unlit dinks underway and attached to a moored boat. There is usually enough general light pollution to pick those objects out... but not when blinded by a bright light or a search light.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Arcb said:


> ....What about a good quality head lamp? I think it technically meets the requirements....


Pretty sure that a single torch is only acceptable (technically) for a row boat or sail boat, under a length I'm not recalling. 12 ft maybe. If it has a motor and is small, I think all around light is the only exception allowed to standard bow and stern lights.

Still, I would think one would get away with it. Certainly, over having no light. That said, I suspect it would be difficult not to shine it into others eyes, even dinghies passing the other direction.


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

I would only go to BI off season... for all the reasons stated above...


----------



## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Yes, Minn, i think you are right, i was thinking of sail or oar.


----------



## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

I saw the best solution in Boot Key Harbor when I was cruising. About half the dinghy operators their white light mounted on their hat. Highest possible location.

Also, some had a miners light mounted on the hat as well so they could see where they were going. The cost was next to nothing and it met all the requirements.

Gary


----------



## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

Wear your headlamp like a bonnet, light on top, strapped under your chin. I'm serious. The light is visible from 360 degrees. It keeps the night vision from being completely ruined and if you need to shine it on something it's mighty close at hand.

I have been stopped by USCG, at dusk, in my dink (11ft), under power, and asked to show safety equipment. They accepted the led headlamp that was in my pocket without hesitation.


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Just for clarification, my dinghy has a motor, I operate in US inland waters (inside the line of demarcation), and I want to be fully compliant because I did not feel at all safe last year on the one occasion that I was unexpectedly out after dark (returning in Annapolis harbor after dark because restaurant service was very slow).

My comments below refer to the lastest USCG COLREGS handbook (https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/pdf/navRules/CG_NRHB_20151231.pdf)

To be fully compliant inside the line of demarcation (inland), a motorized dinghy must have red/green bow lights and all-around raised stern light. (This is the minimum "paragraph d" standard - you could also choose to meet the more stringent "paragraph a" requirements of a traditional motorized vessel. See the handbook p.43 (printed)/p. 52(pdf):



> -INLAND-
> Lights and Shapes
> *Rule 23-CONTINUED*​(d) A power-driven vessel of less than 12 meters in length may, in lieu of the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule, exhibit an all-round white light and sidelights.


There is an exception allowing only an all-around white light if red/green is not "practicable", but it ONLY APPLIES TO INTERNATIONAL WATERS. This exception does not appear in the inland section of the COLREGS, and the accompanying picture explicitly says "International only" (see second attached pic below). This is in the handbook p.42 (printed)/p.52(pdf):



> -INTERNATIONAL-
> Lights and Shapes
> *Rule 23-CONTINUED*​(d) (i) A power-driven vessel of less than 12 meters in length may in lieu of the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule exhibit an all-round white light and sidelights;
> (ii) a power-driven vessel of less than 7 meters in length whose maximum speed does not exceed 7 knots may in lieu of the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule exhibit an all-round white light and shall, if practicable, also exhibit sidelights;


I like the idea of wearing the all-around light on a hat, or on a strap attached to my head. While not explicitly compliant, it accomplishes the visibility requirement better than attaching to the boat, and avoids night vision problems for the wearer (but not for other passengers). There are GoPro headmounts that might also work. However, this white light must be supplemented with red/green bow lights in US Inland waters.


----------



## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

I was looking at the same lights, for the same reasons that you state.

I wanted them to replace these:

















I owned the Aqua Signal versions of the above, and they worked fine for 2 years. In year 3, however, the interior switch had corroded from salt air and the lights worked intermittently. By year 4, they were junk.


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

There are 2 several issues here. What matters most is safety... being seen and avoid collisions. Only a cop with an authority issue will cite someone with visible but non conforming lights. Perhaps they will tell you to get s legal one. Most do not know colregs. Do what is safest...at your own peril.


----------



## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

This was posted about 4 years ago. Any wonder why someone trained a search.ight onto a motoring vessel with no lights on blinding them. 
Just follow the rules,

Minnewaskat
Senior Member

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Narragansett Bay
Posts: 15,835
Thanks: 79
Thanked 437 Times in 415 Posts
Rep Power: 9

Do you use dinghy lights?
Flame on. I have them, but I don't usually turn them on, particularly the white omni directional one, which illuminates inside the dinghy and destroys night vision.

The other night, I was riding back to our mooring after dinner in Edgartown Harbor. I mention the location for those familair with the fairly small harbor that is almost entirely surrounded by homes. It is a crystal clear night and I point out that you can see the outline of the Milky Way in the sky.

With your eyes even slightly adjusted, you can see all the boats from the light coming from the houses alone. Your mooring is going to be between the two shores, even a stinkpotter could figure that out. Granted, another may not see us well, but a collision is impossible to conceive and I do have a light if it was necessary to identify ourselves.

I ask because on our way to our mooring, there is another dinghy with all their lights and a search light on! The are scanning the harbor like they were searching for a lost baby. Naturally the sweep ends up repeatedly in my eyes, ruining my night vision. As they get closer and closer, they find the dastardly target they just knew was lurking in the dark. Us! The dinghy with no lights. Their search light focuses on us like an escaping prisoner at the tree line. I was trying to decide whether to put my hands up or open fire. We are on opposing parallel course passing about 100 ft apart! What the heck are they doing. I have to throttle back, wait for the inquisition to end, regain my night vision and proceed.

The moral.... if you can't see at night, how about not dragging the rest of us down with you. However, I will bet you can see much better with zero light than some may think. In fact, youll be able to see more than just the focus of your search light beam. Old night combat trick was to look about 10 degrees away from what you're trying to see in the dark. Your peripheral sight is much better in the dark than straight on. Try it, you'll be surprised.

Next rant installment from this cruise.... Radio checks on ch 16.

We've never has an issue being blinded by our stern light / bow light on the dinghy

Our bow red/ green

https://www.defender.com/expanded.jsp?path=-1|294|2312556&id=166470
Bottom piece glued onto bow of dinghy with proper cement. Light detaches and is stored and is attached by putting it into bottom piece and has a pin which keeps it in.

Stern is base permanently mounted on transome. Pole is 3 ft high

Navisafe, V-Mount for Telescopic Pole Vertical Mount, 48 - 76 cm


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

eherlihy said:


> I was looking at the same lights, for the same reasons that you state...


Have you decided yet? The kit I linked is around $125 at Amazon with free shipping, $122 at Hodges Marine, not sure about shipping there.

I might just get the bow lights and do something else for white light, but the individual components are pricey, and almost cheaper to just buy the kit.



SanderO said:


> There are 2 several issues here. What matters most is safety... being seen and avoid collisions. Only a cop with an authority issue will cite someone with visible but non conforming lights. Perhaps they will tell you to get s legal one. Most do not know colregs. Do what is safest...at your own peril.


A white light alone is visible, but clearly non-conforming. If law enforcement considers this good enough, I'm fine with it. But I want practical advice on this first from the many here with more nighttime dinghy experience.

Does anyone have any examples of being cited or questioned for having a motored dinghy without the red/green bow lights?

With regard to the white light, I have a second interest in having one: When my dinghy is up in the davits, it blocks the stern light on my boat. So I am interested in the Navisafe white light (or similar) to be temporarily mounted on my davits or bimini frame on the (rather rare) occasions when I am out in the mother ship after sunset. Both the Navisafe white light and the red/green/white tricolor lights operate in several modes, including as a stern light with 135 degree sector.


----------



## wsmurdoch (Jan 23, 2007)

TakeFive said:


> Just for clarification, my dinghy has a motor, I operate in US inland waters (inside the line of demarcation), and I want to be fully compliant because I did not feel at all safe last year on the one occasion that I was unexpectedly out after dark (returning in Annapolis harbor after dark because restaurant service was very slow).
> 
> My comments below refer to the lastest USCG COLREGS handbook (https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/pdf/navRules/CG_NRHB_20151231.pdf)
> 
> ...


In addition on page 112 (printed) for USA inland...
"(d) The masthead light, or the all-round light described in Rule 23(d)(§
83.23(d) of this chapter), of a power-driven vessel of less than 12 meters in
length shall be carried at least one meter higher than the sidelights"

I know of one case where a dinghy in Florida was cited for failure to carry the all round white light 1 meter or more above the sidelights. Don't bet on FWC officers not knowing the law. It is easy for them to measure 39-3/8".


----------



## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

TakeFive said:


> Have you decided yet? The kit I linked is around $125 at Amazon with free shipping, $122 at Hodges Marine, not sure about shipping there.
> 
> I might just get the bow lights and do something else for white light, but the individual components are pricey, and almost cheaper to just buy the kit.
> 
> A white light alone is visible, but clearly non-conforming. If law enforcement considers this good enough, I'm fine with it. But I want practical advice on this first from the many here with more nighttime dinghy experience.


Realize that my lights like @chef2sail 's failed about two years ago. When it worked I liked using the all-around-white light as a flashlight. When the POS failed I was so frustrated (and disgusted) that I decided not to decide.

In most of the places that I go with the dink (Newport, Cuttyhunk, Edgartown, Hadley, Westport, and a couple others) I don't go out after dark. If I do go out after dark, I take care to see that the LEO's are unaware of my presence on the water, and I use one of these;









$23 at Wallyworld, submersible, and floats with the beam up!

During the last two years I have looked, but remembering that I got burned by the Aqua Signal lamps, I have held off. I'm waiting for you to spend the $130, and report back.


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

eherlihy said:


> ...If I do go out after dark, I take care to see that the LEO's are unaware of my presence on the water, and I use one of these;
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I also have one of those, and if Minnewaska ever travels to the Chesapeake, I plan to point it straight at him!


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

wsmurdoch said:


> ...I know of one case where a dinghy in Florida was cited for failure to carry the all round white light 1 meter or more above the sidelights. Don't bet on FWC officers not knowing the law. It is easy for them to measure 39-3/8".


I guess they can't get you for that one if you just carry a white light and omit the red/green ones. Just sayin'.


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

I use the dink often in the evening... and in crowded Northport or Newport where we are anchored or moored about 3/4 of a mile out and have to transverse the mooring field and a busy channel. Northport is pretty dark less traffic. Newport is light polluted with LOTS of traffic... dinks, tour boats, launches...yachts. I use an all around white on the OB. Newport has active harbor master patrolling... and very helpful BTW... Northport cops are done when the sun is down... I have no problems in either location... seeing or with the law... My OB mounted light is portable and is on the dink only at night... I take it with me... don't leave it there for someone needing a handy nav light. In dark empty harbors... not a problem either. KISS


----------



## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

WE always carry flashlights, but have migrated to the suction-cup based LED lights shown at https://www.defender.com/product3.jsp?path=-1%7C215570%7C294%7C2312556&id=186155 for the bow light and the white, stern light version that stick to the top of the OB. Never had them detach.

We previously had a demountable bow light that had a base glued to the inflatable, but the glue failed after a few years.


----------



## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

First world problem, and first world policing. Nowhere else will you find anyone concerned about this. Navigation lights on a dingy are dangerous because they ruin the operator's vision. The primary responsibility of a dinghy operator is to avoid all other traffic regardless of Colregs or other navigation rules. Dinghies are not a valid ship operating under navigation rules, and are the burdened vessel at all times - this is my opinion. Easiest way to avoid things is to find a good light reflection on the water and follow it - if there is no break in the reflection, there is no obstruction in the path. Anchor lights and shore lights are perfect for this.

Really, outside of Montauk Harbor, the Chesapeake, and parts of Florida (on the East Coast US), this is mostly a non-issue. Outside of the US it is totally a curiosity and an amusement. 

Mark


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

colemj said:


> ...The primary responsibility of a dinghy operator is to avoid all other traffic regardless of Colregs or other navigation rules. Dinghies are not a valid ship operating under navigation rules, and are the burdened vessel at all times - this is my opinion...


So tell me the appropriate COLREGS to follow when two unlighted dinghies encounter each other blindly because both are preserving their night vision by having no lights.

Rules of the road are always easy when one vessel is clearly burdened over the other. The reason COLREGS exist is to resolve the gray areas where two vessels are evenly burdened. Lights out is an accident waiting to happen.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

TakeFive said:


> I also have one of those, and if Minnewaska ever travels to the Chesapeake, I plan to point it straight at him!


Which would be a violation of Rule 36, Signals to Attract Attention, Inland. I guess everyone chooses which they will follow.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

TakeFive said:


> So tell me the appropriate COLREGS to follow when two unlighted dinghies encounter each other blindly because both are preserving their night vision by having no lights.


That's a non-sequitur. If they've both preserved their night vision, they aren't blind. Dinghies operate in anchorages. 99% of the time there is ambient light. It is also restricted viz, so everyone should be proceeding slowly. Your signal lights do not improve your visibility, therefore, you are burdened to operate at a safe speed.



> Rules of the road are always easy when one vessel is clearly burdened over the other. The reason COLREGS exist is to resolve the gray areas where two vessels are evenly burdened. Lights out is an accident waiting to happen.


Yet I can't recall hearing of any and at least half the dinghies around here have no lights. Less than 5% of all dinghies I've seen outside the country have lights.

By all means, follow the rules. I do not believe they make you safer in this instance, just compliant.


----------



## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

TakeFive said:


> Lights out is an accident waiting to happen.


It is also the way 99.99% of small boat operate in the world, yet the number of dinghy accidents occurring approaches 0%. Panga accidents are probably somewhat higher - maybe 1-2%, but those are a different class altogether.

Outside the US, there is simply no small boats at all operating with proper navigational lights - particularly cruisers's dinghies. There are also no accidents that can be attributed to lack of proper navigational lights (drunkenness and general stupidity abounds, of course).

If someone could point to actual data statistically implicating lack of proper navigational lights in recreational dinghies as a cause of collisional accidents, then I may change my opinion. But I bet a donut those data don't exist for the class of boats in discussion.

Again, it is a first world problem caught up in over-broad policing tactics, and institutionalized in parochial thinking. It simply does not exist outside of this limited view.

Step back and think about it. The real world problems at night, in a dinghy, are not you without proper navigational lights. The problems will be in this order: 1. you blinded by your own proper navigational lights; 2. dumbass fools who won't see your proper navigational lights regardless; 3. you being a dumbass drunk operating irresponsibly regardless of your proper navigational lights.

The above order would be different for different people on this forum, of course...

Mark


----------



## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Minnewaska, sorry old friend, but in this part of the world, lights make you safer. I frequently see lots of high speed boats roaring up Chesapeake Bay at night, some at speeds of 40 to 50 knots or more, and anyone in their path without lights is dead meat - period!

Good luck,

Gary


----------



## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

travlin-easy said:


> Minnewaska, sorry old friend, but in this part of the world, lights make you safer. I frequently see lots of high speed boats roaring up Chesapeake Bay at night, some at speeds of 40 to 50 knots or more, and anyone in their path without lights is dead meat - period!
> 
> Good luck,
> 
> Gary


Given those parameters, any dinghy with proper navigational lights is dead meat, period. 50kts approaches a mile/minute. That is 5,280 feet/min, or 88 feet/sec.

A typical legal (<20') dinghy navigational light will have a visible distance of <<1mile. From experience, I'm guessing 100' (~1 second warning under your scenario). Check them out - none of them costing <$100+ says anything at all about visible distance, and the regulations for dinghies this size and speed say nothing about required visible distance.

So the reality is that any boat traveling at night at 50kts is not going to see your dinghy with proper navigational lights at all until too late - unless you are really lucky and found the only power boat on the bay simultaneously running at those speeds and keeping a super keen lookout.

You can't fix stupid, but you can't shield yourself against it either. The only way is to operate your vessel in the safest manner possible - which could require no lights ruining your vision.

Mark


----------



## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

travlin-easy said:


> I frequently see lots of high speed boats roaring up Chesapeake Bay at night, some at speeds of 40 to 50 knots or more, and anyone in their path without lights is dead meat - period!


I forgot to point out that few, if any, cruisers' dinghies are ever traveling up Chesapeake Bay at night. Pretty much all of them are putting around closed anchorages, or closely hugging shorelines, or going up small, shallow creeks.

Any other boats traveling 40-50kts in those areas are most assuredly flaunting local, federal, or international laws.

And no proper navigational lights are going to help.

Mark


----------



## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

colemj said:


> Given those parameters, any dinghy with proper navigational lights is dead meat, period. 50kts approaches a mile/minute. That is 5,280 feet/min, or 88 feet/sec.
> 
> A typical legal (<20') dinghy navigational light will have a visible distance of <<1mile. From experience, I'm guessing 100' (~1 second warning under your scenario). Check them out - none of them costing <$100+ says anything at all about visible distance, and the regulations for dinghies this size and speed say nothing about required visible distance.
> 
> ...


Yourare correct . You can't fix stupid.

There is no proof that running a stern light on a dinghy blinds you anymore than running a stern lite on any other oat,

You have to wonder about people who feel they have the right to selectively follow only the rules they think are right. You can't fix stupid or even fix people with stupid justifications for violating the rules. And regulations.


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

I made a couple of tongue-in-cheek posts with appropriate emojis.  It's OK if you don't want to laugh, but I will not respond to any replies that attempt to take those posts literally.

As for visibility of dinghy lights, the Navisafe LED lights claim 2 nm visibility, as well as USCG certification. I also read that they are are dimmable for those who value night vision over strict COLREGS compliance. And frankly, if you're in a 1/2 mile wide harbor, 2 nm visibility may not be necessary as a practical matter.


----------



## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

chef2sail said:


> Yourare correct . You can't fix stupid.
> 
> There is no proof that running a stern light on a dinghy blinds you anymore than running a stern lite on any other oat,
> 
> You have to wonder about people who feel they have the right to selectively follow only the rules they think are right. You can't fix stupid or even fix people with stupid justifications for violating the rules. And regulations.


I'm not sure what you are saying here, but a typical stern light on a <12' dingy is much more blinding to the operator than a stern light on a larger boat. Hence half of the posting here complaining about such. The position of the light, as well as the position of the person in relation to the light is very much different between the two. Most sailboats today have masthead navigational lights. And the stern light is only 1/3 of the required dinghy nav lights. The other 2/3 are the bow lights that are always positioned exactly in the operator's line of sight.

You can't fix stupid, nor lead a horse to water.

Mark


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

colemj said:


> ...The other 2/3 are the bow lights that are always positioned exactly in the operator's line of sight....


You might need to re-mount yours. Every boat I've ever been on had the bow lights pointed away from the helm.


----------



## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

TakeFive said:


> As for visibility of dinghy lights, the Navisafe LED lights claim 2 nm visibility, as well as USCG certification. I also read that they are are dimmable for those who value night vision over strict COLREGS compliance. And frankly, if you're in a 1/2 mile wide harbor, 2 nm visibility may not be necessary as a practical matter.


Yes, 2nm visibility with great cost (relative to just going a few hundred feet to your boat in a small inflatable). 2nm USCG certification is meaningless because this isn't defined anywhere for dinghies like we are discussing here. If it was, then none of the currently acceptable, and sold, navigational lights would qualify, or satisfy law enforcement. Everyone would be ticketed without them. And the dimmability feature would not be offered because it would be illegal to operate them this way.

They are nice lights, for sure, but the company is preying on the consumer with their advertising.

Mark


----------



## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

TakeFive said:


> You might need to re-mount yours. Every boat I've ever been on had the bow lights pointed away from the helm.


Of course. However, any diffuse light shining forward can ruin the operator's vision in that direction. Much worse when there is fog or rain. How often at night in the main ship do you think "gee, it would be great to have more light shining off the bow at eye level"?

Direction of light is not the problem at night - it is relative placement to the operator.

Mark


----------



## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

TakeFive said:


> I made a couple of tongue-in-cheek posts with appropriate emojis.  It's OK if you don't want to laugh, but I will not respond to any replies that attempt to take those posts literally.


I may have missed those, so forgive me if I am responding to something you won't address for this reason. I only saw a tongue-in-cheek post about something regarding white vs. red/green.

Mark


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

colemj said:


> ...They are nice lights, for sure, but the company is preying on the consumer with their advertising...


I think your use of the word "preying" is way over the top.

I fully agree (and stated in OP) that they're expensive, or I would have bought them a couple years ago. But in the combo kit the price isn't that much more than some of the better (but still non-compliant) clamp-on incandescent ones.

I believe that the dimming feature is primarily meant for non-navigational uses such as cockpit lighting. And like I said, as a practical matter, if you're in a small cove you may not need 2 nm visibility. Personally I'm not such a stickler about rigid compliance, so long as the overall intent of the law is met. For instance, I put a warm white Dr. LED bulb in my anchor fixture (on prior boat) because I'm convinced it was 100% safe to do so, but I would never consider a white LED inside a normal red/green fixture because I know enough about color science to know it would be way out of compliance.


----------



## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

colemj said:


> I'm not sure what you are saying here, but a typical stern light on a <12' dingy is much more blinding to the operator than a stern light on a larger boat. Hence half of the posting here complaining about such. The position of the light, as well as the position of the person in relation to the light is very much different between the two. Most sailboats today have masthead navigational lights. And the stern light is only 1/3 of the required dinghy nav lights. The other 2/3 are the bow lights that are always positioned exactly in the operator's line of sight.
> 
> You can't fix stupid, nor lead a horse to water.
> 
> Mark


If your bow lights are in your line of sight and seaable they are not installed correctly... mine are shielded.....must be operator error . Besides they are red and green and not blinding white ones.


----------



## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

TakeFive said:


> I think your use of the word "preying" is way over the top.


How about "Praying" then?

Mark


----------



## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

chef2sail said:


> If your bow lights are in your line of sight and seaable they are not installed correctly... mine are shielded.....must be operator error . Besides they are red and green and not blinding white ones.


It isn't about backward reflection. Forward diffuse light is the issue. Rain, fog, or even normal spray, or clear night - the angle to the operator of a typical dinghy is poor and lights in this manner interfere with operator eyeball navigation and awareness. Even automobile lights are mounted well below the driver eyesight, and only useful for a few feet in front.

Try this: Put someone on the bow of your boat at night with a narrow beam spotlight pointing forward and tell me what you experience in night vision distance and awareness. The spotlight should be narrow enough that none of the direct light is in your line of sight. Put a red gel over it, if you think this matters.

My argument is that the harbor/anchorage dinghy operator should always consider themselves burdened regardless, and operate the dingy under that assumption. In other words, maintain the highest awareness and stay out of the way of everyone else in any type of vessel. In doing so, typical navigational lights are an impediment.

You understand my point, but continue to argue otherwise.

The color of the light is inconsequential to night vision. Only the intensity of the light matters (in spite of "common knowledge" and legend).

For clarity, we don't have any navigation lights on our dinghy. We keep a very strong flashlight in it, and use it if necessary to mark our presence to others or see what we need to see regarding shore features, etc. Of course, we mark our presence to others by shining it on ourselves and not on them.

But then, we don't spend much time in the US waters. Having lived and sailed on it for many years, I completely understand the marine police state of the US East Coast (I have no experience in the US outside the Great Lakes otherwise), and agree that it is better to ferret out and slavishly follow the local arbitrary light requirements than to flaunt them.

I was only attempting to interject reason and situational operation in this topic.

Mark


----------



## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

TakeFive said:


> I believe that the dimming feature is primarily meant for non-navigational uses such as cockpit lighting. And like I said, as a practical matter, if you're in a small cove you may not need 2 nm visibility. Personally I'm not such a stickler about rigid compliance, so long as the overall intent of the law is met. For instance, I put a warm white Dr. LED bulb in my anchor fixture (on prior boat) because I'm convinced it was 100% safe to do so, but I would never consider a white LED inside a normal red/green fixture because I know enough about color science to know it would be way out of compliance.


Imtra offers LED replacement bulbs for Aqua Signal and Hella Nav Lights. They do have a caveat that their warm white -not their cool white- LEDS should be used behind red/green lenses to assure true colors. They also indicate that they are not certified as compliant with regulations.

I read this as their warm white LED, as a replacement for an incandescent bulb behind a red/green lens, is likely to be compliant when/if tested by the certification authorities. The only difference would be that an LED replacement would not have the near infrared emission of an incandescent bulb, but that is not a color rendition concern.

Bottom line: you are probably OK with changing out an incandescent for a warm white LED in your bow light, especially for a dinghy.


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Mark marks very valid points. I also use the follow an uninterrupted light reflection as there is nothing in the way... although if the reflections is narrow you could hit a mooring buoy! I am more concerned with other vessels underway on crossing paths and mostly from after of the beam. When I putt putt I am mostly looking forward... such as following a reflection and ANY lights forward can make this MORE difficult. red and green on the bow of a dink are more a hazard then a help!

The motor mounted light is OK if you are not looking aft because it WILL destroy night vision... but you are not moving aft so this is less a problem. Mine has little impact looking forward. Hopefully traffic aft have running lights which you can see. You DO want to be seen by boats underway. You will have a hard time seeing tricolors or hi lights in some cases.

Probably a possible solution which is not legal would be a blue strobe on the motor. I haven't tried this but strobes DO grab attention.... and if not too bright... they might not impact night vision. I am going to look for a small puck low output strobe and give it a go. I think the wet cops or the tow operators are using strobes.

Seeing anything dark...and unlit in heavy rain or fog is pretty impossible. I recall the difficulty in finding my anchored boat several times when the fog rolled in and I was ashore. I would leave cabin lights on so I could see a unique pattern.. other than anonymous anchor lights. mobile GPS fixed the finding my boat problem.

A real problem is the lack of attention paid by skippers moving about the harbor to dinghy traffic even in daylight. They often are looking forward concerned about collisions with large boats. Paying attention seems to be a lost art... and it's true on the road as well as the water.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

TakeFive said:


> I made a couple of tongue-in-cheek posts with appropriate emojis.  It's OK if you don't want to laugh, but I will not respond to any replies that attempt to take those posts literally......


Fair enough. Apology accepted. 

I associate a smiley with a joke, not sticking your tongue out.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

travlin-easy said:


> Minnewaska, sorry old friend, but in this part of the world, lights make you safer. I frequently see lots of high speed boats roaring up Chesapeake Bay at night, some at speeds of 40 to 50 knots or more, and anyone in their path without lights is dead meat - period!.....


I understand your point, Gary. Indeed, I'm referring to maneuvering around anchorages (the only place I can say I've ever maneuvered a dinghy at night in over 40 years), where one needs to see multiple anchored boats, mooring balls, other dinghies, etc, at slow speed. If you're in your dinghy in the open Bay at night, I would suggest you need more than lights to be safe.

Is this common in the Chessy? Do dinghies venture away from the shoreline in the open Bay at night? Seems to be an unusually Chessy sensitive topic.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Dark adaptation in the eye has been medically understood since the the 1800s. Its taught for night combat, airline cockpits, ship bridges, etc. Anyone that pushes back on it being a thing must be a regulatory sycophant. If you look back and see the all around white light, it medically must reduce your night adaptation. Unless, of course, you fail to maintain a proper watch, which a regulatory sycophant would never do. :eek

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adaptation_(eye)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accelerating_dark_adaptation_in_humans

I'm not taking the position that everyone should run dark all the time, you do what you feel you must. There are circumstances, if there is truly zero ambient light that no one would see you, otherwise. That virtually never exists in populated anchorages.

I will use mine, when that extremely rare circumstance exists or I'm in a location that has over zealous LEOs. Isn't it ironic that they can find you, from hundreds of yards away, to pull you over?


----------



## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

SanderO said:


> Seeing anything dark...and unlit in heavy rain or fog is pretty impossible. I recall the difficulty in finding my anchored boat several times when the fog rolled in and I was ashore. I would leave cabin lights on so I could see a unique pattern.. other than anonymous anchor lights. mobile GPS fixed the finding my boat problem.


As an aside and absolutely nothing to do with running lights and dinghies .....

For many years Ive had the top ~6-8 feet of my mast covered with super-quality reflective tape ... the 'serious' kind thats mandated for used on hazardous chemical drums. When in fog and dark, any direct beam of light shown onto the mast top causes not only the mast top; but, when there's a lot of mist or fog .... the 'area' near the mast top will glow due to the reflection and light 'scatter'. 
Also when VHF hailing to 'commercials' at night, if they can't find me (and if they speak 'englisch'), I request they sweep the area with a spot light ... instant visual location of my position. 
I also never have a problem at night for instantly finding my boat in a crowded mooring field or crowded anchorage - 'brilliantly glowing mast top' when direct illuminated. 
The downside is it has to be replaced every ~10 years,


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

RichH said:


> As an aside and absolutely nothing to do with running lights and dinghies .....
> 
> For many years Ive had the top ~6-8 feet of my mast covered with super-quality reflective tape ... the 'serious' kind thats mandated for used on hazardous chemical drums. When in fog and dark, any direct beam of light shown onto the mast top causes not only the mast top; but, when there's a lot of mist or fog .... the 'area' near the mast top will glow due to the reflection and light 'scatter'.
> Also when VHF hailing to 'commercials' at night, if they can't find me (and if they speak 'englisch'), I request they sweep the area with a spot light ... instant visual location of my position.
> ...


What would be fabulous is some sort of spray on reflective (highly) clear " spray paint" with crystals in it. You could spray this on anything you wanted to be reflective and renew it easily enough even... spraying with a stencil!

this: https://www.amazon.com/Albedo-100-Reflective-Invisible-Bright/dp/B00WRNPI50

might be something to experiment with.


----------



## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

You might want to also look at some of the 'dazzle' clear sprays used on car & truck license plates to confuse and dazzle-block (photoblock) 'red light' & speed cameras used to vastly enhance municipal 'revenue income', as well as a photoblock for 'license plate readers' used for widespread automatic surveillance of the population.

These sprays probably use the very same (or smaller size) 'ballotini' - clear micro-beads which is probably the chief _dazzle_ ingredient in most reflective tapes. 
However the larger the micro-bead the greater the reflective 'dazzle'.

https://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&k...argid=kwd-488380720552&ref=pd_sl_5t44mwy959_b


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

I'm trying to figure out why there has been such a disconnect here with the debate over lights vs. night vision.

Someone commented that dinghy lights seemed to be a Chesapeake Bay obsession, and maybe there's a reason why. I'm not sure what it's like up in Long Island Sound anchorages, but my own concerns on this issue are based on my limited experience in busy places like the Annapolis mooring field, and could carry over to similar busy places where you might dinghy ashore to visit restaurants and bars, like St. Michaels, Inner Harbor, Fairlee Creek, Rock Hall Harbor, and maybe even Solomons, Rockhold Creek, Engineer's Cove, Northeast, and/or Havre de Grace. Most of these places have a lot of ambient light which already kills night vision, as well as a lot of nighttime traffic, some with water taxis and nighttime diners driving runabouts to restaurant tie-ups. The ambient noise also interferes with safety, since a dinghy's motor will not be conspicuous over the noise. Places like that may also attract greater attention from law enforcement (though maybe some of you with more experience would disagree). In these sorts of places, I believe that dinghying around at nighttime without nav lights is both hazardous and illegal, and night vision is not improved due to the large amount of ambient light. While the ambient light would, in theory, enable people to see you, that argument could be extended to its absurd conclusion of eliminating lights from all boats, including water taxis and ferries. The fact is, in these busy harbors, it is expected that any moving vessel needs to have red, green, and white nav lights to show other boats its direction and speed. Merely "staying out of the way of others" is insufficient to ensure safety.

I know this is a very different situation from a secluded anchorages at many other places in Maryland, but in those places I would not want to dinghy to shore after dark anyway, so it's a moot point for me. Maybe someone with a dog would have greater reason to dinghy to shore after dark in a secluded place, and an argument could be made for doing so without lights.


----------



## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

TakeFive said:


> I'm not sure what it's like up in Long Island Sound anchorages


Hit and miss with only local pockets concerned. Montauk law enforcement is very obnoxious about everything regarding dinghies, with their own interpretations of law. For instance, don't have an anchor in your dink? That's a ticket. The dink has current CT registration and not NY (CT is 14nm away)? That's a summons you will have to fight in a NY court. Most other places don't give dinghies a second look unless they are being operated unsafely.

Maryland has the worse reputation for slavishly stringent adherence to almost draconian rules regarding dinghy operation and lights. Where most places would be happy with an all-around white light or even a flashlight, MD requires full sets of proper running lights. Whenever there is an organization gam or boat show, etc, the word is always put out to the cruising community that the cops will ticket you without full light gear.



TakeFive said:


> I know this is a very different situation from a secluded anchorages at many other places in Maryland, but in those places I would not want to dinghy to shore after dark anyway, so it's a moot point for me. Maybe someone with a dog would have greater reason to dinghy to shore after dark in a secluded place, and an argument could be made for doing so without lights.


Hmm. Many reasons to be out in a dink at night when in more secluded areas; bonfire or shore gathering, dinner on a friend's boat, out fishing past sunset, etc.

BTW, I agree with you about lights in the busy harbor situations you describe. Those are so rare for us, that I could count them on one hand.

What I find interesting about the rules is that non-motorized craft do not need navigational lights, or at most a flashlight, while motorized craft require navigational lights all around. To me, this should be the opposite - I think we are safer in avoiding trouble in our highly maneuverable 20kt illegally unlit dinghy at night than someone in a legally unlit kayak or rowboat.

Mark


----------



## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

.... under admiralty law, any non-compliance to the COL-REGs and involved in just about ANY subsequent litigation or award, etc. in admiralty court will result in a proportional deduct for assignment of blame and receipt/payment for damages.

Dont have a black ball in the rigging when daylight anchoring and someone crashes into you - DEDUCT, as you are adjudged as partially contributory as a % to the accident, etc..

Dont have an anchorlight on in the dark and there is an accident - DEDUCT, as you are adjudged as partially contributory as a % to the accident, etc.

Dont have an inverted cone in the rigging when motor sailing & there is an accident - DEDUCT, as you are adjudged as partially contributory as a % to the accident, etc.

etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

What you dont want to do is to make yourself vulnerable for your insurance underwriter to refuse/deny coverage, .... even as a percentage of any claim or award. Its all in the 'fine print' boilerplate of most marine insurance policies.


----------



## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

colemj said:


> Hit and miss with only local pockets concerned. Montauk law enforcement is very obnoxious about everything regarding dinghies, with their own interpretations of law. For instance, don't have an anchor in your dink? That's a ticket. The dink has current CT registration and not NY (CT is 14nm away)? That's a summons you will have to fight in a NY court. Most other places don't give dinghies a second look unless they are being operated unsafely.
> 
> Maryland has the worse reputation for slavishly stringent adherence to almost draconian rules regarding dinghy operation and lights. Where most places would be happy with an all-around white light or even a flashlight, MD requires full sets of proper running lights. Whenever there is an organization gam or boat show, etc, the word is always put out to the cruising community that the cops will ticket you without full light gear.


VERY TRUE in many places in Maryland and not only common in busy harbors and gams, etc. 
Most extreme enforcement in MD always seems to occur near the end of any month for some reason, just like such extreme enforcement of traffic violations in MD usually coincides with the end of the month. 
On the Upper Ches., the DNR water cops will hide in many smaller feeder creeks waiting to ambush for obvious non-compliant to regs boaters (especially dinghies) passing by. 
The most common and apparently widespread boating infraction in MD for the past several years has been --- not having an audible signal device (whistle) directly and 'securely' ATTACHED to each and every PFD per person onboard. 
One can only wonder what the next obscure and inane MD state boating infraction will soon develop and be needing execution. I'll make the bet that it will probably be for non-permantly affixed boat 'license boards' for out of state boaters - as now all such state licenses in MD must be permanently affixed directly to the boat/dinghy, etc., and not on any non-permanently affixed/tied-on 'license boards'.

Ditto in Florida with the FWC, especially in the Florida Keys (but omitting the exact need to have a 'whistle' directly attached to one's PFD, or license numbers on 'boards'). 
Swimming from a dinghy in the keys? - you better have a diver down flag on board your dink - or 'ticket'.


----------



## aa3jy (Jul 23, 2006)

Yep...especially in the 'Narrows' on any weekend and especially a major holiday weekend... It's a major revenue gathering choke point!


----------



## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

aa3jy said:


> Yep...especially in the 'Narrows' on any weekend and especially a major holiday weekend... It's a major revenue gathering choke point!


HAHA ... what is needed is 'WAZE' or other similar iPhone or iPad 'app' for the locating _active_ 'water cops' and 'boating infraction traps' ... just like they work out quite well vs. highway speed traps, red light cameras, etc.

The WAZE app 'could' work for the itinerant 'revenue toll booth equivalents' becoming quite common on many MD waterways.

;-)

Hey! our best regards anyway.


----------



## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

colemj said:


> ...
> 
> Really, outside of Montauk Harbor, the Chesapeake, and parts of Florida (on the East Coast US), this is mostly a non-issue. Outside of the US it is totally a curiosity and an amusement.
> 
> Mark


Nice to know and that may be true, but as TakeFive says, he's inland with his dinghy. There have been threads here in previous years about the MD marine police going after dinghies without proper nav lights. Why not just be safe AND legal for where we're boating?


----------



## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

If you want to be seen a few stripes of the SOLAS reflective tape on your dink helps.


----------



## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

TakeFive said:


> Personally I'm not such a stickler about rigid compliance, so long as the overall intent of the law is met. For instance, I put a warm white Dr. LED bulb in my anchor fixture (on prior boat) because I'm convinced it was 100% safe to do so, but I would never consider a white LED inside a normal red/green fixture because I know enough about color science to know it would be way out of compliance.


Imtra offers a LED replacement bulbs for nav lights with the caveat that their warm white LED (vs. cool white) is preferred with red/green lenses to assure proper color. They also said that the LED replacement is not certified to be in compliance, subject to testing by the compliance authorities.

That said, I seriously doubt that a warm white LED behind red or green lenses would be way out of compliance on color issues.


----------



## wsmurdoch (Jan 23, 2007)

fallard said:


> Imtra offers a LED replacement bulbs for nav lights with the caveat that their warm white LED (vs. cool white) is preferred with red/green lenses to assure proper color. They also said that the LED replacement is not certified to be in compliance, subject to testing by the compliance authorities.
> 
> That said, I seriously doubt that a warm white LED behind red or green lenses would be way out of compliance on color issues.


I'd bet the green sector would be relatively brighter and the red sector relatively dimmer with a warm white LED when compared to a incandesent lamp.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

colemj said:


> ....What I find interesting about the rules is that non-motorized craft do not need navigational lights, or at most a flashlight, while motorized craft require navigational lights all around.....


You mean these rules may not have been well thought out? 

I understand the point of our fellow posters that the rules are the rules (even though I'll bet a beer that each and every one of them have flaunted some different rule they have a problem with in life). What I totally fail to understand is their equating these rules with safety. It's like believing that eggs are bad for you, then good for you, etc.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

TakeFive said:


> .....Most of these places have a lot of ambient light which already kills night vision,


You really should read up on how this works. Brightness has an exponential impact. Ambient light from shore is less than linearly impactful to the bright light two feet from your eye, let alone comparable.



> .....that argument could be extended to its absurd conclusion of eliminating lights from all boats, including water taxis and ferries.


The distinct difference here is both that larger traffic can not, in fact, see all traffic, like you can from a dinghy. Further, the operators of these larger craft are not going to be able to avoid a certain degree of night blindness from the instrumentation in their cockpits.


----------



## Hudsonian (Apr 3, 2008)

I can't comment on the observation regarding unlit rowboats and kayaks but my experience sailing a 17' dinghy at night was that shining a flashlight at the mainsail instantaneously made you an unidentified 27' tall object -- far superior to running lights.


----------



## kenr74 (Oct 13, 2012)

I have never motored my dinghy at night. I am sure I will have to when taking longer term trips on the boat. I had considered something like these LED glow sticks as a way to have at least some emergency lighting.
http://https://www.niteize.com/product/LED-Mini-Glowstick.asp
They come in red, green, and white. One of the flashlight style bow lights would be better, as these would shed lots of light back into the boat, but this might be a good answer to the stern light, since if you lofted it atop something like a driveway reflector pole it would hardly be bright enough to completely destroy your night vision. 
Now pardon my while I get my Nomex undies on for all of the flames that will follow.


----------



## Dfok (Apr 11, 2010)

67 posts and counting debating a dinghy light! Well done but what will we debate when winter really arrives?

My late addition to the conversation.....the least expensive solution to the original post is when in Annapolis use the water taxi or row.
Second least expensive solution is keep the least expensive required safety items aboard and in working condition; there are no extra points for whiz bang pricy LEDs which will break, fall off or get stolen. 

Even with all the gear on the dink you can still be stopped "for a safety check", but generally it has nothing to do with safety items, they are looking for DUIs, illegal immigrants or terrorists (in no particular order). 

Unless you are a teetotaler with all your gear and documents in hand and time to spare bobbing alongside the marine police, the Annapolis water taxi - $3 a head anywhere in the harbor - is cheap insurance and a pleasant benefit while visiting the city.

Other places, use lights or common sense or row.


----------



## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

One of my scariest experiences when sailing at night involved a kayak, which was operated by a drunk in Havre de Grace, Maryland's tiny harbor. It was about midnight when I was slowly motoring back to my marina in Perryville, which is across the river from Havre de Grace. A tiny, red blip on my 3G Radar indicated there was something out there in the ink black darkness, and it appeared to be slowly moving. I steered away from it, and it continued to maintain a collision course with me. Finally, I switched on my Maglight, shined it in the direction of the radar target, and there is was, a relatively young man, holding a beer can in one hand, and drifting across the main channel. No lights, no common sense and I could have very easily run him down. A few minutes later, the Captain Tom, a large tug, was headed downriver in the same area, pushing a massive bargeload of rocks from the nearby quarry. I called him on my handheld VHF on Channel 13 and made him aware of the kayak, for which he was grateful. He switched on his massive spotlight and veered out of the drunk's way. That guy would be dead had it not been for my 3G radar picking him up. The Captain Tom uses conventional radar, which would never seen him at such a close range.

Bottom line, if that drunk would have had just a small, white light, we would have known right away there was something we had to avoid. The law, however, did not require him to have a light, even when operating in the middle of the night in a busy channel. 

For those that are creative, and mechanically handy, it would be very easy to place LED running lights on a baseball cap, that could operated with a simple 9-volt battery, and the cost would be next to nothing. I would rather be safe and compliant than smooshed beneath a bargeload of quarry stone, a gofast boat, an inbound freighter or tanker, or the QE whatever.

Gary


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Dfok said:


> 67
> 
> BLAH BLAH BLAH...
> 
> Other places, use lights or common sense or row.


I can't row an alum. inflatable 3/4 of a mile which is distance to the dock. Oldport launch is fine... it only goes 2x per hr. The Northport launch is private and costs $1,400 / yr.

Common sense is what you need and a little bit of intelligence and situational awareness. I have not seen cops break chops re dinks except for speeding.


----------



## Dfok (Apr 11, 2010)

SanderO said:


> I can't row an alum. inflatable 3/4 of a mile which is distance to the dock. Oldport launch is fine... it only goes 2x per hr. The Northport launch is private and costs $1,400 / yr.
> 
> Common sense is what you need and a little bit of intelligence and situational awareness. I have not seen cops break chops re dinks except for speeding.


Damn, guess you got me, the OP didn't mention Annapolis until a later reply - #17. Seems you got the dink light thing down, if you can't row 3/4 of a mile and it is dark use a motor and a light. 
Or not. You're the skipper.


----------



## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

wsmurdoch said:


> I'd bet the green sector would be relatively brighter and the red sector relatively dimmer with a warm white LED when compared to a incandesent lamp.


You are only showing part of the story. You need to show the spectral transmission of the red and green lenses. BTW, my AquaSignal LED bow light is pretty even on the red and green brightness, but it was bought as an integral unit--not a conversion from an incandescent light. Admittedly, there can be some mismatch between light source and the color filters if they were not engineered as a unit.


----------



## wsmurdoch (Jan 23, 2007)

fallard said:


> Imtra offers a LED replacement bulbs for nav lights with the caveat that their warm white LED (vs. cool white) is preferred with red/green lenses to assure proper color. They also said that the LED replacement is not certified to be in compliance, subject to testing by the compliance authorities
> That said, I seriously doubt that a warm white LED behind red or green lenses would be way out of compliance on color issues.


I said, "I'd bet the green sector would be relatively brighter and the red sector relatively dimmer with a warm white LED when compared to a incandesent lamp."



fallard said:


> You are only showing part of the story. You need to show the spectral transmission of the red and green lenses.


Why? In an incandescent bulb the intensity of the green is about half of the red. In a warm white LED the intensity of the green is about three times greater than the red. If the lenses of a fixture designed for an incandescent bulb attenuate the red by half to match the intensity of the green, would not the red lens also attenuate the red from a replacement warm white LED by half making the red one sixth as intense as the green?


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

wsmurdoch said:


> Why? In an incandescent bulb the intensity of the green is about half of the red. In a warm white LED the intensity of the green is about three times greater than the red. If the lenses of a fixture designed for an incandescent bulb attenuate the red by half to match the intensity of the green, would not the red lens also attenuate the red from a replacement warm white LED by half making the red one sixth as intense as the green?


Fallard is right - partly. You need the spectral distribution functions for the red and green filters. What Fallard missed is that you also need the observer function, because the eye is not equally sensitive to all wavelengths. Without those, you're just guessing. The color filters are not perfect, they also transmit some of the wrong wavelengths, so a bulb where the emission of yellow is stronger than red (like LEDs) could look orange through the red filter. And this, by the way, is exactly what happens, just look at an LED-equipped pimp-mobile sometime. I've seen the same thing on LED-equipped boats. You can recognize them in a second if you have good eyes.

You need to do the array multiplication over the entire visible spectrum {light source}*{filter}*{observer function}. And you then need to apply linear transformations on that to reduce it to XYZ tristimulus values and/or CIELab coordinates (or whatever coordinate system is used for color from illuminant sources), and verify that the color parameters are within the color specs of USCG/SOLAS/whomever. This is why USCG will only approve the entire fixture as a whole.

These days it is popular to think that that government is totally incompetent, and all these regulations are arbitrary, but there are many good scientists working there, and they actually know more than most of us do about this stuff (including me).

If you're interested in getting away from hollow speculation, and learning some real science on this subject, you can find a slightly out-of-date edition of one of the "bibles" of color science for about $10 here:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00N4IJ4HA

I suspect that there are other color science references that you can download for free.


----------



## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

wsmurdoch said:


> I said, "I'd bet the green sector would be relatively brighter and the red sector relatively dimmer with a warm white LED when compared to a incandesent lamp."
> 
> Why? In an incandescent bulb the intensity of the green is about half of the red. In a warm white LED the intensity of the green is about three times greater than the red. If the lenses of a fixture designed for an incandescent bulb attenuate the red by half to match the intensity of the green, would not the red lens also attenuate the red from a replacement warm white LED by half making the red one sixth as intense as the green?


Given the spectra you showed for various light sources, I can understand your reasoning, but that doesn't mean your conclusion is correct for the specific LEDs that might be paired with nav light filters intended for incandescent light sources. Specifically, there are warm white LEDs that have very different spectral distributions than the one you showed.

My response to your claim actually didn't go far enough. You need to couple the light source with the filters and then apply the human spectral response in order to determine relative brightness of the red and green sectors. Note that the human spectral response falls off rapidly as you move deeper into the red, so that the increasing radiant output of an incandescent bulb has less and less effect.

But let's take a critical look at warm white LED spectra, since your LED spectrum does not represent all warm white LEDs that are available in the real world. The thumbnail shows LED spectra for some Cree LEDs. The warm white LED spectrum, shown in red (color temperature of 2700°K), has a much higher red/green ratio than the warm white LED spectrum you showed.

Certainly, the Cree warm white LED would allow a very different green-red brightness balance than the LED represented in your post.


----------



## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

kenr74 said:


> I have never motored my dinghy at night. I am sure I will have to when taking longer term trips on the boat. I had considered something like these LED glow sticks as a way to have at least some emergency lighting.
> http://https://www.niteize.com/product/LED-Mini-Glowstick.asp
> They come in red, green, and white. One of the flashlight style bow lights would be better, as these would shed lots of light back into the boat, but this might be a good answer to the stern light, since if you lofted it atop something like a driveway reflector pole it would hardly be bright enough to completely destroy your night vision.
> Now pardon my while I get my Nomex undies on for all of the flames that will follow.


Those glowsticks will be pretty much useless in being seen - their light output is very low and diffuse. If they were seen by an approaching boat, they probably would not register to the operator as nav lights - maybe shore reflection, etc, and may be ignored. They may get you out of a ticket if the LEO is feeling generous, but I wouldn't count on them for safety.

We have another of that company's product that we got for the dinghy: https://www.niteize.com/product/SpotLit.asp

These are much brighter and more directional, but still pretty poor at being navigational lights. They probably would make a LEO happy, and do the job better than the glowsticks.

But if safety is your main concern, then get real navigational lights - anything else is equivalent to no lights at all, and you have fooled yourself. Real navigational lights look like, and are priced like, the ones Takefive linked to earlier. Most others are toys in this regard.

We got these a year or so ago when we were on the Chesapeake, and fooling law enforcement was our main concern, not safety. They can work for this purpose, but I wouldn't use them (or most of the commonly sold "dinghy nav lights") for safety.

Mark


----------



## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Dfok said:


> Other places, use lights or common sense or row.


In terms of safety in the dark, how does rowing without navigational lights provide safety? Nav lights are not for the operator to see others.

I have been advocating the "use common sense" option, but it doesn't seem very popular...

Mark


----------



## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

travlin-easy said:


> For those that are creative, and mechanically handy, it would be very easy to place LED running lights on a baseball cap, that could operated with a simple 9-volt battery, and the cost would be next to nothing. I would rather be safe and compliant than smooshed beneath a bargeload of quarry stone, a gofast boat, an inbound freighter or tanker, or the QE whatever.
> 
> Gary


You don't need to be creative or handy - all you need is 8 bucks: LED Cap Lighted Trucker Baseball Hat

Mark


----------



## aa3jy (Jul 23, 2006)

RichH said:


> HAHA ... what is needed is 'WAZE' or other similar iPhone or iPad 'app' for the locating _active_ 'water cops' and 'boating infraction traps' ... just like they work out quite well vs. highway speed traps, red light cameras, etc.
> 
> The WAZE app 'could' work for the itinerant 'revenue toll booth equivalents' becoming quite common on many MD waterways.
> 
> ...


No need for new WAZE app update..its where ever there is gathering around known bars and restaurants that serve.. That's why
DNR has a boat ramp at the Narrows..easy stop,handcuff and haul away. I've watched 'em from the front porch of Pinney Narrows marina a many a night..


----------



## wsmurdoch (Jan 23, 2007)

The specifications for the colors of navigation lights are in Annex I of the Rules and are given as CIE x,y chromacity boundaries. The definition of "range of visibility" is there also.

I have LED bulb (currently DrLED although I have tried others) in the Aqua Signal 40 combined side light on the bow of my boat. Although the green side is now noticeably brighter than the red and although I doubt that it now meets the Annex I specifications, I still have it. When the outrageous prices of LED navigation lights come down a bit more, I'll replace the fixture.

Before retiring I worked for 31 years as a chemical engineer for Eastman Kodak then Eastman Chemical manufacturing plastics (cellulose esters and polyesters) and may still have a copy of Billmeyer at home. Color was important.

I think all three of us are actually saying the same thing. "Changing the illumination source in a fixture that meets the specifications of the Rules can have unintended consequences and may produce a fixture that does not meet the specifications of the rules."


----------



## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

TakeFive said:


> I need Nav Lights for my new dinghy. I've had my eye on this, and it's starting to appear with some discounted (but still high) prices:
> 
> Any comments based on experience with this? Amazon has a couple reviewers mentioning a flimsy stern pole, and poor mounting of the pole on the transom. I can imagine that the long lever arm of the pole puts a huge torque on the transom mount, and with the top-heavy pole with the light on it, wave action can create a lot of torque on the pole:
> 
> NAVISAFE | Navisafe Dinghy Complete


In summary: It would appear that the answer to the OP is that there is no experience (but plenty of comments) here with these specific running lights.


----------



## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

^That would be a first around here, NO?


----------



## bbarnewolt (Jul 16, 2001)

I looked at the Navisafe lights but instead opted for this:

Kayalite® marine-grade portable night navigation light for kayak, SUP, SOT, canoe.

The kayalite is marketed to the kayak/sup community, but with a small pad eye mounted on my 6hp outboard, it serves well as an all around white light above my OB. I have used it for two years. It mounts easily, unmounts easily, does not become detached unless you want it to and seems pretty indestructible. It does not adversely effect my night vision. I found it to be an excellent solution for my 10.5 ft RIB at night moving about the harbor.

They also market a red/green bow light combo which I purchased as well, but I have never mounted it as I don't see the need and the single all around white does the job.

Good luck.

Brien


----------



## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Sorry, but that single white light mounted on a post would totally destroy your night vision in a heartbeat. Makes absolutely no sense at all.

Gary


----------



## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

Almost 1500 views, ~80 replies; and the USCG and International navigation 'regs' for required marker lights clearly states .... what?


----------



## bbarnewolt (Jul 16, 2001)

Sorry, but personal use for over two years says otherwise. Of course, YMMV.:wink


----------



## seabeau (Oct 5, 2014)

My battery powered white dingy stern light is mounted to the starboard side of the transom with two wingnuts and is attached to an old wide fiberglass sail batten about 3 1/2 feet long and thus, is higher than my head while sitting . Cheap, works well and is flexible enough to withstand some mistreatment. With the OB removed the batten is easily pivoted down for storage.


----------



## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

RichH said:


> Almost 1500 views, ~80 replies; and the USCG and International navigation 'regs' for required marker lights clearly states .... what?


Depends on the size of boat and whether it is powered. But the USCG and international regs don't matter, because individual states also have their own rules, or at least their own interpretation of the rules.

As someone else pointed out, how many of us are using black cones and balls in the rigging when anchoring or motoring? Those are also regulations. Many other examples of reasonable situational flaunting of regulations abound. Heck, many on this thread are admitting their anchor and nav lights don't meet regulations, and they purposely made them that way.

On the other hand, our boat far exceeds regulations in many areas (5x as many fire extinguishers as required, for example) - shouldn't there be an accounting ledger that balances out not meeting other regulations like using an anchor ball? :angel

Mark


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

colemj said:


> Depends on the size of boat and whether it is powered. But the USCG and international regs don't matter, because individual states also have their own rules, or at least their own interpretation of the rules.
> 
> As someone else pointed out, how many of us are using black cones and balls in the rigging when anchoring or motoring? Those are also regulations. Many other examples of reasonable situational flaunting of regulations abound. Heck, many on this thread are admitting their anchor and nav lights don't meet regulations, and they purposely made them that way.
> 
> ...


This is an excellent comment and gets to what sensible behavior is and selective enforcement. The "authorities" may be on a revenue generating scheme... or trying to me a ticket quota when they hand out summons. But they're supposed to use discretion and the concern is or should be life safety. Skippers need to use life safety concerns to inform their decisions and this may mean not following the LETTER of the law but the SPIRIT of the law.

You light an anchor light MORE because you don't want another boat to hit your rather than "because it's the law".... and the same with navigation lights.


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

TakeFive said:


> I need Nav Lights for my new dinghy. I've had my eye on this, and it's starting to appear with some discounted (but still high) prices:
> 
> Any comments based on experience with this? Amazon has a couple reviewers mentioning a flimsy stern pole, and poor mounting of the pole on the transom. I can imagine that the long lever arm of the pole puts a huge torque on the transom mount, and with the top-heavy pole with the light on it, wave action can create a lot of torque on the pole:
> 
> NAVISAFE | Navisafe Dinghy Complete


My kids got me this kit for Christmas. It looks to be pretty nice quality, packaged well in a little (non-waterproof) carry box. It appears to be truly USCG certified, and they even provide the name of the testing lab and date of the tests. My daughter also got me an extra rail mount, which will be used to mount one of the lights as a backup stern light on the mother ship when the dinghy is in the davits blocking my normal wired stern light. The mounts use the GoPro mounting design, so I can also use them to mount my GoPro-knockoff action camera. The screw-together pole does not seem flimsy at all, although the mounting base will need to be supplemented with second attachment point due to the long lever arm of the pole. I have some parts lying around that will be perfect for that.

I am glad that I'll have fully legal lights for US inland waters after dark next year. The rest of you can continue to rationalize your noncomformance as you wish. I won't have those worries.


----------



## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

TakeFive said:


> My kids got me this kit for Christmas...


I expect a FULL report sometime next season - after you have tried them on the dinghy!


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Lights are obviously for collision avoidance... and for other vessel operators to understand your motion (to avoid collision again). Whether you are legal of not is really a secondary issue... especially if you are not observed with non conforming or no lights by the "law enforcement". I am not advocating violating the law... just noting that you don't get cited if you are not observed by law enforcement.

There have been legitimate concerns raised about lights reducing one's night vision... which would be counter productive.

I am wondering is some sort of small all around strobe/flashing blue, for example might be a way to be noticed without effecting night vision... and easier to pick out. Of course strobes and quick flashing are associated with emergency situations... so the interval would have to be longer I suppose. Maybe you could have it on top of a hat which you tap to turn on/off.

I don't think the existing nav light solutions, legal or not are very good.


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

SanderO said:


> ...Whether you are legal of not is really a secondary issue... especially if you are not observed with non conforming or no lights by the "law enforcement"... just noting that you don't get cited if you are not observed by law enforcement...Of course strobes and quick flashing are associated with emergency situations... so the interval would have to be longer I suppose...I don't think the existing nav light solutions, legal or not are very good.


Good examples of what I referred to as "rationalizing your nonconformance."

This has been hashed over on this thread already, so there's not much more to say. I think that inventing your own solution (which, in the case of flashing blue, happens to correspond to a law enforcement vessel), is a really poor idea.

It's only illegal ("cited") if you get caught ("observed by law enforcement") is particularly silly logic IMO. Going completely dark is inviting a collision if there are other boats around.

I'm not a strict conformist (I once put a warm white LED anchor light in an incandescent anchor fixture because I knew it would be good enough), but I do believe that most safety related laws are put in place because experienced committees of mariners have judged them to be important. So I think it is a poor idea to completely blow off any law without even trying to obey the spirit of the law.

And you really think that every single nav light solution is not very good? It seems like you really are just making up excuses to ignore the law. Might be more honest to just say you choose to ignore this law.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Glad you got what you wanted. Assume you also have a full set of day shapes for motorsailing and anchoring. It's not real clear why you felt the need to poke those that are 'rationalizing their nonconformity', if you didn't want to relitigate it. While running dark does flaunt this specific law, I bet you haven't fully lived a life worthy of casting the first stone. There is a legit reason to maintain that a star/moonlit harbor, especially with ambient shore light, is perfectly safe to see and be seen, if you don't ruin your night vision. Exhibit A to the argument is the lack of accidents, as many/most places don't use dinghy lights. The law is defacto unnecessary. I'm glad you're happy with them.


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Yes, my attitude may have been a little too snarky. Not my best post.

I already acknowledged in a prior post that those in certain less trafficked areas may be OK without full nav lights. (And USCG doesn't require red/green sidelights in international waters for most dinghies.) However, in my limited nighttime dinghy experience near my home waters I felt both unsafe and subject to the whims of law enforcement, so the lights are right for me. SanderO's suggestion of going dark to avoid a citation may not work when in a moonlit harbor where it is perfectly safe to be seen by law enforcement, especially in areas near me where law enforcement is known to be strict. I think it all depends on where you use your dinghy at night.

I have never raised daymarks for motorsailing (nor have I seen them raised on nearby sailing school boats or day charters), and have never felt unsafe or under threat from law enforcement for this. As I said, I'm not a stickler for full conformance as much as I am a pragmatist for general safety. One other law I always make sure to follow is having PFDs in the dinghy, even if we need to carry them around with us on shore.

I'll offer my review of the lights next season. It's too early to tell if I'll be fully happy with them, but I am hopeful that I will.


----------



## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

TakeFive said:


> I have never raised daymarks for motorsailing (nor have I seen them raised on nearby sailing school boats or day charters), and have never felt unsafe or under threat from law enforcement for this.


Not a requirement unless you are >=12 meters (39.4 feet). A Catalina 34 gets a pass.


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

eherlihy said:


> Not a requirement unless you are >=12 meters (39.4 feet). A Catalina 34 gets a pass.


Hmm, I should have known that. And that explains why I haven't ever seen them, since I sail inland. But I've seen plenty of larger sailing vessels motoring without day shapes either, so enforcement must be lax.


> -INLAND-
> Lights and Shapes
> 
> *Rule 25-CONTINUED*​
> (e) A vessel proceeding under sail when also being propelled by machinery shall exhibit forward where it can best be seen a conical shape, apex downward. A vessel of less than 12 meters in length is not required to exhibit this shape, but may do so.


----------



## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Yet another reason why, despite the prevailing market preference conention of some in the "Boat of the Year" thread, I do not want a boat larger than 39 feet.


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

TakeFive said:


> . SanderO's suggestion of going dark to avoid a citation may not work when in a moonlit harbor where it is perfectly safe to be seen by law enforcement, especially in areas near me where law enforcement is known to be strict. I think it all depends on where you use your dinghy at night.


I am not advocating anything. I use an all around white mounted on my OB when called for.

I stated that there could be better solutions for dinghy running lights. I didn't say flashing blue... which has been adopted by law enforcement. The lights could be flashing purple or yellow/orange.

Judging the motion of a moving vessel in a crowded harbor at night is informed by many cues... not only the colegs lighting scheme. Judging whether there is something in your path can often be determined by reflections and eclipsing reflections.

My philosophy is to stay clear of all boats, buoys and objects I see. Moorings are unlit, channel markers are often unlit and we have to use other skills to see and avoid them.

You do what you feel makes you and others around you safe. That is my mantra. If you feel that strict adherence to the letter of the law works for you... go for it. I am not advocating that anyone do anything or nothing.

And sure your solution will be driven by the conditions you are using the dink at night... that is a given... one size does not fit all.


----------



## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

These *JUST* went on sale at Defender for $120


----------



## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

eherlihy said:


> These *JUST* went on sale at Defender for $120


The dinghy one is $149.99

At that price I just ordered one. Like that it has its own box to store when not in use.

Navisafe Inflatable Boat Complete Navigation Light Kit
Kit Includes: Bow and Stern Nav Lights, Mount, Pole and Storage Box
Navigation Lights in Compliance with COLREG 72
The Perfect Solution for All Inflatable Boat Owners
Item #: 701663 Brand: Navisafe Model #: 767 Shipping Weight: 3.20 Lbs. List Price: $179.99 Our Price: $149.99
See All Navisafe Products
View Similar Items
Why Buy from Defender?
Status: In Stock

Quantity: Add To Cart


----------



## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

chef2sail said:


> The dinghy one is $149.99
> 
> At that price I just ordered one. Like that it has its own box to store when not in use.
> 
> ...


according to the Defender email that I just received;


> Enter Coupon Code DEF113 at Billing Section of Checkout


Your price could/should be $119.99


----------



## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

eherlihy said:


> according to the Defender email that I just received;
> 
> Your price could/should be $119.99


thankss👍😄🌪


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

My kids paid the same thing (actually a couple dollars less) at Amazon. I'd have sent them to Defender if that price was available at the time (I checked it several times).

The price on Amazon is very volatile, so if you can't get the sale price at Defender, you can probably set an alert on camelcamelcamel.com and time your purchase on Amazon. (That's what I did.) Most of us have all winter to wait. I'll be watching Defender for one of those gorgeous Schaefer stainless steel track cleats. If that goes on sale this winter, I'll pounce. (Too bad there's no tracking site for Defender.)


----------



## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

TakeFive said:


> I'll be watching Defender for one of those gorgeous Schaefer stainless steel track cleats. If that goes on sale this winter, I'll pounce. (Too bad there's no tracking site for Defender.)


Garhauer has something similar for about ½ of the Schaefer stainless. I have them on my boat, and am very happy with them. 








I have used both the Garhauer and the Schaefer cleats on various boats.


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

eherlihy said:


> Garhauer has something similar for about ½ of the Schaefer stainless. I have them on my boat, and am very happy with them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Something else to stub a toe or trip on... but they do look handy.


----------



## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

My 87 O'day gets a pass for not having mid ship cleats, but how Catalina got away with not including them into the late 2000s is beyond me.


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

I've owned both, and I strongly prefer the Schaefer stainless one like I had on my prior boat. In addition to its aesthetic beauty, its ability to act as a chock and its far greater capacity to accommodate multiple lines (when doubling up for a storm) make it worth the extra cost (when I can get a decent price). I got something like 25% off on a special sale at West Marine for my previous one. I would have pulled it off my old boat, but it was only a 1" track size.

Never came close to stubbing a toe or tripping on one. But my tracks are out on top of the molded fiberglass toe rail.


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

eherlihy said:


> > Enter Coupon Code DEF113 at Billing Section of Checkout


I get a couple emails a month from them (including one yesterday), but never one that offered this deal. How do I get on this list?

Also, how can you tell which items are eligible for this coupon? So far I've tried putting some things in my cart, but entering DEF113 does nothing.


----------



## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

We’ve got Schaffer cleats on tracks on both sides. Useful as all hell . Great for raft ups and also for the initial dock line when single handing. 
Never stubbed my toe either but it’s definately there. Lol


----------



## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Rick try APS...$87
For 11/8

Or for 1/1/4
http://www.p2marine.com/catalog/pro...MIsYGhkfmr2AIVkYSzCh3VFghWEAkYASABEgKYHvD_BwE


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

chef2sail said:


> Rick try APS...$87
> 
> Use get more coupon b
> 
> Shopping Cart | APS


I think the $87 price is for the 1" track version. I have a 1-1/4 track, which is pretty much the same price as Defender's normal price. So I may sit and wait for now to see if Defender does a special sale.


----------



## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

TakeFive said:


> I think the $87 price is for the 1" track version. I have a 1-1/4 track, which is pretty much the same price as Defender's normal price. So I may sit and wait for now to see if Defender does a special sale.


Will be hard pressed to beat $102 at Defender though between now and sailing season they may do some 10% off

https://www.defender.com/product3.j...7-1-2inch-long&path=-1|2259971|2709020&id=598

We got 1 of ours at Bacons for $25. I usually go there to snoop around once a month??


----------



## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

TakeFive said:


> I think the $87 price is for the 1" track version. I have a 1-1/4 track, which is pretty much the same price as Defender's normal price. So I may sit and wait for now to see if Defender does a special sale.


Defender does a warehouse sale every March, where they typically take 10% off all of their regular prices. There are specials on top of that.

BTW I've got these cleats on my tracks and they are great. My port cleat secures a spring line for backing when I return to the dock. Having an adjustable cleat position allowed for keeping the gate clear.


----------



## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

I just ordered the Navisafe LED light kit that sparked this thread from the Defender Warehouse sale ~$135 delivered to my door. I should have bought them when I could have for ~$120. Now I will just have to schlep it from Ft Myers, FL, to Warwick, RI, (where the boat is) when I return in April.


----------



## ggray (Jun 18, 2011)

Mine works well. I mount the white one to my hat with the magnet


----------



## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

ggray said:


> Mine works well. I mount the white one to my hat with the magnet


You have a ferrous hat?


----------



## ggray (Jun 18, 2011)

The flat magnet is placed inside my hat and the magnetic base of the light clamps together with it.
I attach the bi-color the same way to a flap on the bow of my RIB.


----------



## ggray (Jun 18, 2011)

That's 2 separate magnets


----------



## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

ggray said:


> The flat magnet is placed inside my hat and the magnetic base of the light clamps together with it.
> I attach the bi-color the same way to a flap on the bow of my RIB.





ggray said:


> That's 2 separate magnets












Sorry, I am a bad person...


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

I still have not used the Navisafe lights on my dinghy yet, although all the mounts are installed and ready to go. As I noticed twilight last night and looked at the clock saying 7:18, I realized that we'll likely be using them pretty soon. I'm glad I have them because I want to be compliant with COLREGs, and I do think they're safer than no lights at all (or just a flashlight).


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

My old all around light corroded AGAIN so I ordered a new portable one that came with the suction cup for the top of the outboard. It's the type that has a lever to pull the suction, not just a flexible cup. It's small and lighter than the last, so seems less likely to want to fall off. The add says AA batts, but I could swear it took AAA. I loaded it in the spring and don't feel like crawling up there to check.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001B07TMA/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

This reg should be changed. At the least it should be changed to a color that doesn't wreck ones night vision, but red has been taken. How about flashing red at one second intervals?

I was at anchor in Bristol on Sat night. Their harbor patrol is well know for harassing everyone for everything, so I put it on, when we returned from dinner. It's overcast and very dark, but the shoreline is illuminated by the towns lights. As I pull away from the docks, I hear a motor behind me, so look back. The freaking white light makes it impossible to see behind and when I look forward again, my night vision is notably worse. This reg could not have been written with 10 ft dinghies in mind and the bureaucracy can't get out of its own way to do something smart about it.


----------



## svHyLyte (Nov 13, 2008)

The trick is to get the light up and above your sight line. For that I use a 3/4" dia. plastic pipe, in our case about 4' long, that will slide into a slightly larger diameter piece of plastic pipe with a end cap on the bottom, about 16" long, screwed to the transom. Our "all around white light" is kept in the dinghy gear bag, in a zip lock baggie without the batteries inserted but also in the baggie, so it can be pulled out and slipped into the mounting pipe and set up when necessary. Somewhat McGyverish, but it does work.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

svHyLyte said:


> The trick is to get the light up and above your sight line. For that I use a 3/4" dia. plastic pipe, in our case about 4' long, .


Thanks. The thought has occurred to me and it's been suggested here before. Where do you store the 4ft pole? Honestly, I've never seen anyone with one, although, I know them to exist in the wild.

The real issue with the bureaucracy is there is no way to write a regulation that accounts for a measurable amount of ambient light. There are conditions where it is far safer that one can see without the affect of the white light and others, where a dingy might be less noticeable or expected where they make sense.

My real pet peeve is the yo yo that shines their spot light directly at everything, while entering the harbor at night. I was heading out to an anchorage a few weeks ago and put the white light on, as it was well outside the mooring field and transiting through the harbor entrance. If I was going through the mooring field, I would have found it much safer to not have it. Sure enough, there is an inbound stinkpot with their spot light sweeping. That's fine, but when you get close to something, you're done, you know it's there. Not this guy. Full on, direct in our face and held it for a couple of seconds. Now I can't see in any direction. Literally. I diverted my eyes to the dinghy floor.


----------



## svHyLyte (Nov 13, 2008)

Minnewaska said:


> Thanks. The thought has occurred to me and it's been suggested here before. Where do you store the 4ft pole? Honestly, I've never seen anyone with one, although, I know them to exist in the wild.....


In our case we have a 3.2M inflatable and carry the pole along side the port pontoon, somewhat wedged in place. It sometimes comes adrift but not usually. I add a cut down piece of a foam "floaty" noodle to the ends to avoid chafe to the tube and keep the thing afloat if it becomes dislodged from its mount.

I have no solution to the "spotlight" effect but am too well aware of the adverse effects having once been involved in a minor accident when a CHP Rookie was shining his spot at on-coming traffic at a malfunctioning controlled intersection at 0-dark-30 on a very rainy night in SoCal many years ago. Completely blinded us at exactly the wrong time. We may "flash" a light across an on-coming boat that seems to present a danger but certainly never "spot" it, making the situation even worse IMHO.

FWIW...


----------



## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

I bought the kit mentioned in the OP from Defender (<$140) during their warehouse sale this spring. The kit comes with two mounts, a four-foot pole that breaks down into four one foot sections, an all-around-white light, and a tricolor that mounts on the bow. I have used it a few times, and so far am happy that I bought it. I have mostly used it while running between my mooring and the nearby marina or restaurant, and I feel more confident knowing that other boats entering the marina fairway can see me. 

The tricolor has six settings: off, tricolor, bicolor, red only, green only, and white only. The LEDs on the tricolor, which I only use as a bi-color, do not interfere with my night vision because I mounted the light very close to the water. The bicolor LEDs light up objects in the water in front of me, and make docking the dink easier. The all-around-white LED is very bright, but it is not in my field of vision after I turn it on and get underway. This all-around-white has four settings; off, all on, four on, and flashing. Both fixtures require that you push and hold the on switch for two seconds before the LEDs activate. This prevents one from accidentally activating the LEDs and draining the batteries. Battery life seems good after half a year. I will have to see how long they last.

I use the lights for my benefit (improved vision) and for the benefit of other boaters near me. I have not worried about the local LEOs, because I have lost count of the number of PWC that I have either heard or sometimes seen out in Greenwich Bay (RI) after dark.


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

I can’t remember if I mentioned this before, but I also bought Navisafe’s rail mount and installed it on the aft bimini rail of my sailboat. When my dinghy is in the davits it blocks the sailboat’s stern light. I do not like sailing/motoring at night (too many crab traps), so it’s not worth the trouble to move my wired stern light (not sure where I’d move it to anyway). But if I ever get caught out sailing/motoring in conditions that require nav lights, I can mount either of the Navisafe lights on the bimini (above the dinghy) and set it to shine white over the 135 degree arc, which is a fully compliant stern light. (eherlihy - you forgot to mention the stern light mode in your description.)


----------



## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

When I was in the Florida Keys, Boot Key Harbor, there were lots of folks that ran around with no lights at all and many of them were ticketed by the local waterway cops. A local guy began making LED navigational light baseball caps that sold for about $39 - really worked well and no problems with night vision and no problem seeing the dinghy from a long distance away. He lived on his boat, and later went home to Canada, so I don't know what became of his neat invention. I don't think it would be difficult to duplicate this at home. He powered it with a 9-volt battery.

Gary


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

travlin-easy said:


> When I was in the Florida Keys, Boot Key Harbor, there were lots of folks that ran around with no lights at all and many of them were ticketed by the local waterway cops. A local guy began making LED navigational light baseball caps that sold for about $39 - really worked well and no problems with night vision and no problem seeing the dinghy from a long distance away. He lived on his boat, and later went home to Canada, so I don't know what became of his neat invention. I don't think it would be difficult to duplicate this at home. He powered it with a 9-volt battery.
> 
> Gary


I'd be curious what the waterway cops say about it. No way a baseball cap could be compliant, since the red/green should be on the bow and the all-around white on the transom and elevated by 48". Would the cops say, "nice try, but here's your ticket," or "close enough for me"?


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

TakeFive said:


> I'd be curious what the waterway cops say about it. No way a baseball cap could be compliant, since the red/green should be on the bow and the all-around white on the transom and elevated by 48". Would the cops say, "nice try, but here's your ticket," or "close enough for me"?


Rule 23 says.....



> a power-driven vessel of less than 7 meters in length whose maximum speed does not exceed 7 knots may in lieu of the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule exhibit an all-round white light and shall, if practicable, also exhibit sidelights;


No idea what the standard is for practicable, but I do know that extraordinarily few dinghies have sidelights around here. The majority rarely have any lights. I do not see where is says it must be elevated or what it must be attached to, only that it be exhibited. Is your point referenced elsewhere in the ColReg?


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Minnewaska said:


> Rule 23 says.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That exception applies for International waters only. No such exception exists for Inland.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

TakeFive said:


> That exception applies for International waters only. No such exception exists for Inland.


I thought I recalled the USCG made an effort to conform these light rules a few years back, but indeed they still look different in this regard. Isn't it interesting that virtually all boats are built with nav lights standard, except dinghies. To express my real thoughts about the bureaucracy that requires an inflatable doing 4 kts in an anchorage to have sidelights, requires vulgarity in exception to forum rules. 

Still, where did you get the 4ft or the attached requirement? While I'm not personally wearing a light on my hat, it sure seems practically effective to me (for the all around white part).

As I've said many times, this section of the ColRegs desperately needs updating. It's obviously lightly enforced. If anyone can cite a single time that a dinghy has been cited for only having a white and not sidelights, please let me know. I want to be sure I cruise and spend my money elsewhere.


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

I thought that 4’ elevation was required, but can’t find it in COLREGs, so I guess I was technically wrong about that. Years ago I had seen a diagram showing it, but don’t remember where it was. Go ahead and wear your baseball cap if you want. However, it might still be required for the light to be attached to the boat (not your head), and in a way that it is visible over 360 degrees (thus effectively elevated about 4’).

FWIW, I think red-green side lights are equally important. It’s not about being cited, it is about seeing and being seen. When I look out and I see a red and white light moving together from my right, I recognize it’s a small boat that is stand on. If I see both red and green ahead of me (with white above it), I know it’s a small boat coming straight toward me. I want the lights on my dinghy so I can be seen, and I would prefer the lights on other dinghies so I can avoid hitting them. We can argue all you want about night vision and light pollution, but I believe lights on a boat in the classic pattern mandated by COLREGs reduce the risk of nighttime collision.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

TakeFive said:


> .........but I believe lights on a boat in the classic pattern mandated by COLREGs reduce the risk of nighttime collision.


Well, I guess I'll bite. I really don't want to start a pissing match. Since it's clear that the majority of dinghies do not presently use these lights and I can't recall ever hearing of a such collisions occurring, it may already be proven this isn't necessary to reduce the risk.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I will say, if you use your tender to travel down the coast at night, it makes abundant sense to exhibit all the lights of a small powered vessel. The rub is when transiting solely between an anchorage or mooring field and a reasonably nearby shore. Perhaps the ColRegs should distinguish between them.

How about the guy rowing his dinghy or kayak to shore at night? Less of a collision risk? Regulations are not synonymous with safety.


----------



## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Rick, the vast majority of the inflatables down in the keys only had a single, white lite mounted on a stern post, and the coasties there said that was all they were really required to have when navigating at night. The local waterway patrol guy, who kept his patrol boat right behind my boat, said the single white light was compliant, too.

As for the red and green light positioning, I'll have to read up on that, but if my memory serves me correctly, most of the larger, commercial vessels had those running lights on either side of the superstructure - not the bow.

Take a look at Rule 23 - Power-driven vessels underway - OTEN Maritime Studies - Maritime Training for GPH, Coxswain, Master, Deck Watchkeeper and Marine Engine Driver (MED) qualifications

Gary


----------



## wsmurdoch (Jan 23, 2007)

TakeFive said:


> I thought that 4' elevation was required, but can't find it in COLREGs, so I guess I was technically wrong about that. Years ago I had seen a diagram showing it, but don't remember where it was. Go ahead and wear your baseball cap if you want. However, it might still be required for the light to be attached to the boat (not your head), and in a way that it is visible over 360 degrees (thus effectively elevated about 4').


U.S. Inland, Annex I, Section 84.2, (g) The sidelights of a power-driven vessel shall be placed at least one meter lower than the forward masthead light. They shall not be so low as to be interfered with by deck lights.

Is that what you were looking for?

Bill


----------



## wsmurdoch (Jan 23, 2007)

travlin-easy said:


> Rick, the vast majority of the inflatables down in the keys only had a single, white lite mounted on a stern post, and the coasties there said that was all they were really required to have when navigating at night. The local waterway patrol guy, who kept his patrol boat right behind my boat, said the single white light was compliant, too.
> 
> As for the red and green light positioning, I'll have to read up on that, but if my memory serves me correctly, most of the larger, commercial vessels had those running lights on either side of the superstructure - not the bow.
> 
> ...


Take a look at https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/pdf/navRules/CG_NRHB_20141118.pdf
then on page 43 at U.S.Inland Rule 23 (d). Compare it to the International Rule on the page before.

Bill


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

I wasn't baiting anyone, I was just stating my opinion. You can talk to all the people you want to validate your opinions. The COLREGs are clear, and if you choose no to comply with them, that's up to you. If lax enforcement allows you to get away with it, I won't berate you over it.

I'll be using my lights at night later this summer (if we ever get decent weather while I'm not traveling on business), and maybe after doing that for awhile I'll come to hate them like some of the rest of you.


----------

