# Chucking my propane stove, what to replace it with



## barefootnavigator

Our little boat is getting closer and closer to resuming our cruise and I have decided to pull the propane stove. There isn't anything wrong with it other than the fact that I have never plumed it in. Basically it just acts as a gimbal for my portable butane stove that I have been using for 3.5 years.

I really like the Origo non pressurized stoves but I've been told alcohol is difficult to obtain far from home. Id like to hear from people who have been out cruising for over a year without propane and what their thoughts are.

This is NOT a propane bashing thread, I love propane but on this boat its just more trouble than its worth to get a proper set up.


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## Tenoch

I can't comment on availability of alcohol all over the world, but gotta say I love my Origo. I have a Force 10 propane stove/oven in the new boat and am thinking of pulling it for an Origo 6000. Something to consider too, if you were in a place were you couldn't find denatured alcohol, what are the chances you could get propane anyway?


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## barefootnavigator

I wonder if you could use kerosene.


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## Tenoch

barefootnavigator said:


> I wonder if you could use kerosene.


Or the cheapest local rot-gut liquor.


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## deltaten

My findings also, BFN. 
WHile I like the "handiness" of propane; I cringe at the prospect of the costs to have it plumbed to 'spec'. 
Once added up , the cost of parts alone well exceeds the price of an outrageously (IMHO) dear stove itself. 

Custom, full lenght hose, special four away switch/relay, solenoid valve, two thermocouples and associated wiring. Then add a nonstandard tank and it would exceed my food budget for near a year!!!

Hence, I use a two. burner camp stove, perched upon my defunct pressure alky stove and deal with little gasbottles. stowed in the 'pit locker....with the proper low drain/vent,of course 
The alternative is to singemy hair with a cantankerous alky stove, a stinky diesel unit or odd-ball butane tins or *heaven forbid!* Coleman pressure. fuel! Diesel would be nice,as it's common to the engine fuel; but, WOW; what they ask for a good stove is near as much as I. paid for the boat! 

Hasta be a better/easier/cheaper way?


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## newhaul

I use a Coleman multi fuel stove burns the same gasoline I use in my outboard motor also have a propane stove I plumbed to a two gallon tank I just turn the gas on when I need it and turn the tank off when I'm done originally it used the disposable bottles but they can leak when not on the stove


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## Minnesail

If I were you I'd pull it and replace it with a depth sounder.


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## barefootnavigator

Minnesail said:


> If I were you I'd pull it and replace it with a depth sounder.


Good one


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## PBzeer

Looking back, I often wish I'd simply put in a two burner Origo, rather than a new propane stove/oven and redoing the lines. I haven't ended up doing near the amount of "cooking" I thought I would (the reason for propane), so the Origo would work just fine. And there's usually someplace that sells denatured alcohol that's a lot easier to get to than propane.


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## SVAuspicious

Tenoch said:


> Something to consider too, if you were in a place were you couldn't find denatured alcohol, what are the chances you could get propane anyway?


Quite good. Propane is one of the most commonly used cooking fuels worldwide. That is not to say you won't have to haul your tanks some distance to get it, but you can.


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## Ajax_MD

BFN-

Define "far from home"?

If you're planning on cruising the US and Canada, denatured alcohol is widely available at hardware stores and "big box" stores like Lowe's, Home Depot and Wal-Mart.

If you're going overseas or south of Mexico, I have no comment as I don't know the availability of alcohol in those regions.

My two-burner Origo is pretty thrifty on fuel consumption, and with the proper cookware, is a joy to cook with. You can't beat the safety factor. A final thing to consider, is that Origo makes a hybrid electric/alcohol model (4300E) that allows you to cook with electric elements like a household stove, when connected to shore power. 

The 4300E could greatly extend your fuel supplies and also reduces the amount of moisture released into the cabin while cooking with electric heat.


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## killarney_sailor

I agree that it depends on where you plan to go. We have 2 -20 lb propane tanks so do not need to fuel up very often. I don't know the relative burn rates of propane and alcohol or how many cans of alcohol you have room for, but I am picturing in my mind where we bought propane and whether you could buy alcohol. In general I think you would be ok assuming that you could carry as much cooking capacity in alcohol. If it was substantially less, I could picture that it could be a problem. I really can't picture where you would get alcohol in out of the way places that have a sort of general store. Cooking gas and kerosene would be available. I used to have a kerosene stove and hated it.


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## PBzeer

Pretty much anyplace that sells paint, is going to have denatured alcohol.


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## Pegu club

We installed an origo two burner stove on our B-24 this season, it works great, coffee, eggs and sausage for breakfast, pasta for dinner, it boils water quickly enough to not notice having to "wait" for it to boil water. I have no first hand information about purchasing alcohol outside of the states, but have seen many cruising boats with origo stove/ ovens on them on the yacht world site.


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## MarkofSeaLife

How cheap is it in the USA?

Because in the Caribbean at the chandlery its $17.05 per gallon. Though it must be cheaper somewhere else

Where propane is $10.50 for 10 pounds and really available world wide wherever theres a boat 

Caribbean's Leading Chandlery - Budget Marine


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## bljones

I'm not sure about the lack of availability of stove alcohol- you can buy it at any good paint store, since it is a common paint thinner. You won't have to buy alcohol all that often. I have a Cookmate two burner stove, essentially an Origo clone. I cook a lot, (2 meals a day, 4-5 days a week) and find that a burner fill will last up to two weeks. We have used about 6 litres of alcohol since the beginning of July.


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## PBzeer

> Because in the Caribbean at the chandlery its $17.05 per gallon.


A chandlery would be my last resort.


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## MarkofSeaLife

PBzeer said:


> A chandlery would be my last resort.


Do the have a swimming pool? :laugher


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## Faster

My understanding was that, unlike pressurized alcohol stoves, Origo wick style stoves could get away with simple methyl hydrate.. is that not so?

We had a pressurized alcohol stove for a decade and found a good workaround for the preheat routine - we found when you burned that (expensive) fuel raw in the 'cups' the fumes were very strong and burned the eyes. We've used an Origo type too and didn't notice any such fumes.


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## MarkofSeaLife

bljones said:


> you can buy it at any good paint store, .


That, again, depends on where the guy is going. "Paint store" takes out most idylic islands... And "Good paint store" takes out whole regions. 

Mind you, one could buy lots and store it.


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## JonEisberg

You might consider retaining propane as a partial solution...

The Forespar Mini Galley is one of my favorite items on board. i use my 2-burner Force 10 stove to do any 'real cooking' onboard, but for that great percentage of time when all you need to do is boil water for coffee, heat up some soup or whatever, these things are a great way to go...

Highly recommended, particularly for a small boat, and I believe the small propane canisters can be found most anywhere these days...


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## killarney_sailor

I am with Mark, in much of the world the only paint that is available is water-based latex. If there are marinas and chandleries in a country there will also be hardware stores and often big box stores that are like a Home Depot. In those countries propane and alcohol will be available. In more out of the way spots there will be propane and kerosene and probably not alcohol. Depends on where the OP is going and how much alcohol he has room for.


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## MikeOReilly

Our previous boat came with an old Kenyon pressure alcohol stove/oven. Coming from our camping days I found it no issue at all to manage the preheat. The stove worked great for all the years we used it. And I always burned cheap methyl hydrate in it. No way was I going to pay the ridiculous price they wanted for denatured. Just keep the burners clean and it worked fine. 

Our new (old) boat came with a propane system, and I like it a lot. Propane's energy density is quite a bit higher than alcohol, and you can store a lot more in a much smaller space. These factors appear to make propane a better cruising fuel, but if you can manage the storage, I think alcohol is just fine. And the Origo stoves look really good to me. 


Why go fast, when you can go slow


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## emcentar

I have an Origo stove, but my rate of alcohol consumption is much higher than others report here - in fact, it seems to evaporate entirely between weekends on the boat. (Yes, I have the burners closed - that slows but does not eliminate evaporation.) Good to know that isn't a feature of the stove and in fact, there must be something wrong with my setup.

The PO of the boat used a portable camp stove, but a camp stove in a boat scares the crap out of me. I've been in two house fires, I don't plan to be in a boat fire.

E.


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## copacabana

Don't kid yourself about the safety of alcohol. A spill can quickly turn into a fire and the flames are almost invisible. There are MANY accidents here involving alcohol, which is commonly used for cleaning, starting BBQs, fires etc. It's dangerous enough that the government has stopped the sale of 98% alcohol to the public and only permits the sale of 48%, which doesn't really burn all that well (being half water). I wonder if a simple propane setup where you run a straight hose to the stove and always turn the gas off at the bottle isn't safer, cheaper and easier in the end. It's hard to beat the compact BTUs and availability of propane.


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## Pegu club

emcentar said:


> I have an Origo stove, but my rate of alcohol consumption is much higher than others report here - in fact, it seems to evaporate entirely between weekends on the boat. (Yes, I have the burners closed - that slows but does not eliminate evaporation.) Good to know that isn't a feature of the stove and in fact, there must be something wrong with my setup.
> 
> The PO of the boat used a portable camp stove, but a camp stove in a boat scares the crap out of me. I've been in two house fires, I don't plan to be in a boat fire.
> 
> E.


Just a thought, are you using the rubber like seals over the top of the tank openings before you close the top when you are not using the stove? This helps the evaporation thing a lot.


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## Don L

Seems crazy for some people to give up propane as a cost issue and use something else :laugher

If you think it is too expensive to install a proper propane system, but cheaper to use those camp stove bottles that's just insane.

If think it is safer to have burning liquid on a boat instead of a propane system, that's insane.

If you think it would be better to have a BBQ and use charcoal etc instead of propane, that's insane.

Maybe not insane if you decide to go to a sun oven, but ..............


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## Alex W

emcentar said:


> I have an Origo stove, but my rate of alcohol consumption is much higher than others report here - in fact, it seems to evaporate entirely between weekends on the boat. (Yes, I have the burners closed - that slows but does not eliminate evaporation.) Good to know that isn't a feature of the stove and in fact, there must be something wrong with my setup.


Are you covering the burners with the rubber gaskets when you leave the boat for a while? That is essential to keeping the alcohol from evaporating. You can buy or make replacement gaskets if yours are lost.

You could also be filling up your burners less than most of us do. Each burner holds 1 liter of fuel. The stove does perform better when the burner is at least half full instead of mostly empty.

I'm pretty sure that I have the same stove as you (since we have the same boat, and the stove was original equipment) and my burners hold fuel all winter.


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## Ajax_MD

Don0190 said:


> Seems crazy for some people to give up propane as a cost issue and use something else :laugher
> 
> If you think it is too expensive to install a proper propane system, but cheaper to use those camp stove bottles that's just insane.
> 
> *If think it is safer to have burning liquid on a boat instead of a propane system, that's insane.
> *
> *If you think it would be better to have a BBQ and use charcoal etc instead of propane, that's insane.*
> 
> Maybe not insane if you decide to go to a sun oven, but ..............


Again, with the false equivalency.

Propane is pressurized, and offers many points of failure along the delivery path, requiring many expensive safety features, complex plumbing, and proper storage of propane tanks, when done properly. Many old boats do not have provisions for the proper storage of propane tanks.

The advantage of propane is its availability, its fast cooking times and its convenience.

UN-pressurized alcohol stoves are inexpensive, simple to install, and very safe. The liquid fuel cannot spill from the canister, even when completely filled. The fuel does not require any special storage. Alcohol stoves don't require complex or expensive safety devices. An alcohol flame can be quickly and safely extinguished with water. Those are the advantages of un-pressurized alcohol.

The disadvantages are slower cooking times, less availability, and possibly a higher cost, depending on your consumption and where you obtain your fuel from.

I use a charcoal Magma grill. Why exactly, is that insane?
I'm not storing 1lb. propane bottles (which is always lambasted as being unsafe). I'm not wasting my money on 1lb. propane bottles (which by your own admission, are insane to buy, due to their expense).

Blanket statements such as "Blah blah is insane" are unhelpful, and stifle useful discussions with pros and cons which can help someone make an informed decision. Each system requires compromises and discussing them objectively can help people make the choice that is right for their boat and their circumstances.


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## Ajax_MD

emcentar said:


> I have an Origo stove, but my rate of alcohol consumption is much higher than others report here - in fact, it seems to evaporate entirely between weekends on the boat. (Yes, I have the burners closed - that slows but does not eliminate evaporation.) Good to know that isn't a feature of the stove and in fact, there must be something wrong with my setup.
> 
> *The PO of the boat used a portable camp stove, but a camp stove in a boat scares the crap out of me.* I've been in two house fires, I don't plan to be in a boat fire.
> 
> E.


+3 on installing the neoprene or rubber covers over the fuel canisters when not in use. Cut some from rubber sheeting or buy replacements. They'll make all the difference.

My first and only galley fire was from using a pressurized camp stove that stealthily wept fuel onto the counter from a faulty O-ring on the fuel tank.

My advice is to not use the camp stove and find another solution.


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## Maine Sail

Have you considered becoming a raw vegan. Seems like it would fit well with your _minimalist_ approach... It would also free up some space on the boat...

BTW All forms of cooking are relatively safe.

*Why Boats Catch Fire Boat US Insurance Stats*

The data suggests that it would pay to focus on your AC and DC wiring.... As a marine electrician, I concur...!!!

*Boat US
Stove fires appear to be less common (1%) than in the past, probably due to fewer alcohol stoves being installed on new boats. Still, alcohol can be a dangerous fuel; though it can't explode, an alcohol flame is hard to see. One fire was started when a member tried to light the stove and gave up because he couldn't see the flame. Unfortunately, he had succeeded, but didn't realize it until he got a call from the fire department. Only one fire was started by propane; a portable stove fell off a counter and ignited a cushion.*


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## emcentar

Ha! No - I don't have rubber caps for my alcohol stove - some previous owner must have lost them. Thanks for the heads up - refilling my canisters every weekend was not only a pain, the high frequency of refills increased the chances for spills and dangerous situations.


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## emcentar

Maine Sail said:


> Have you considered becoming a raw vegan. Seems like it would fit well with your _minimalist_ approach... It would also free up some space on the boat...
> 
> BTW All forms of cooking are relatively safe.
> 
> *Why Boats Catch Fire Boat US Insurance Stats*
> 
> The data suggests that it would pay to focus on your AC and DC wiring.... As a marine electrician, I concur...!!!
> 
> *Boat US
> Stove fires appear to be less common (1%) than in the past, probably due to fewer alcohol stoves being installed on new boats. Still, alcohol can be a dangerous fuel; though it can't explode, an alcohol flame is hard to see. One fire was started when a member tried to light the stove and gave up because he couldn't see the flame. Unfortunately, he had succeeded, but didn't realize it until he got a call from the fire department. Only one fire was started by propane; a portable stove fell off a counter and ignited a cushion.*


That's an interesting link! Thanks! (in 95% of fuel leakage fires the fuel is gasoline - wow - I'd always heard diesel was safer but hadn't seen the data.)

For the record, I think my alcohol stove is safer than a camp stove not because alcohol is safe, but a camp stove can't generally be as well-secured and is more likely to travel to something flammable if the boat gets hit by a wake, for instance.


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## eherlihy

copacabana said:


> Don't kid yourself about the safety of alcohol. A spill can quickly turn into a fire and the flames are almost invisible. There are MANY accidents here involving alcohol, which is commonly used for cleaning, starting BBQs, fires etc. It's dangerous enough that the government has stopped the sale of 98% alcohol to the public and only permits the sale of 48%, which doesn't really burn all that well (being half water). I wonder if a simple propane setup where you run a straight hose to the stove and always turn the gas off at the bottle isn't safer, cheaper and easier in the end. It's hard to beat the compact BTUs and availability of propane.


Agree about the lack of safety of alcohol, but picking a nit about it's availability;


> Everclear is a brand name of rectified spirit sold by American spirits company Luxco.[1] It is bottled at 151-proof (75.5% ABV) and 190-proof (95% ABV).[2] *Sale of the latter is prohibited in 13 U.S. states* (California, Florida, Hawaii, Iowa, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Nevada, New Hampshire, North Carolina, Ohio, and Washington)


I buy it in Rhode Island...


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## hellosailor

So I'm the only one left who keeps a proper sandbox in the galley, and just makes a frugal wood store and hangs the kettle over it?

What's that line, maybe from "48 hours", where one of the detectives looks in the dumpster and says to the other one "Damn, someone just threw away another perfectly good white boy!" ?

OP wants to throw out a propane stove, OK, don't argue, someone will be _delighted _to take it off his hands.


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## Puddin'_Tain

Non-pressurized alcohol stoves are about as safe a cooking system as one can have on a boat. They do take slightly longer to cook, but not enough longer to negate the added safety inherent in such stoves. I use one (a two-burner Origo) on my boat and have never had a problem with it.

However, there are some places where alcohol (denatured or pure) is difficult to come by. Probably the best way to find out if your possible cruising grounds have readily available alcohol is to check the hiker/backpacker forums (there's a hell of a lot more of them in every remote nook and cranny of the globe than there are sailors). If you are planning on going places where finding alcohol is problematic, I would also carry a small pressurized kerosene stove (such as this one). I would install a kero stove on my boat, but my wife is very sensitive to such odors (no matter what some may claim, even the best keri stove have some smell).


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## eherlihy

hellosailor said:


> What's that line, maybe from "48 hours", where one of the detectives looks in the dumpster and says to the other one "Damn, someone just threw away another perfectly good white boy!" ?


I thought so too... we were both wrong;


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## bljones

MarkofSeaLife said:


> That, again, depends on where the guy is going. "Paint store" takes out most idylic islands... And "Good paint store" takes out whole regions.
> 
> Mind you, one could buy lots and store it.


Based on BFNs current location and cruising pace, he won't be out of range of paint stores until 2021 at the earliest.


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## rgp

if you decide to stay with propane, take a look at Dickinson marine stoves.
i switched from a force 10 to the Mediterranean this year and couldn't be happier.


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## MedSailor

Minnesail said:


> If I were you I'd pull it and replace it with a depth sounder.


This is why I love having this guy around. 

MedSailor


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## copacabana

rgp said:


> if you decide to stay with propane, take a look at Dickinson marine stoves.
> i switched from a force 10 to the Mediterranean this year and couldn't be happier.


RGP, not trying to highjack the thread, but since you brought it up...
My next big upgrade is a new LPG stove with oven and I have been looking at the Dickinson Mediterranean and the Force 10. How is the Dickinson better and does it justify the roughly 400 dollar difference?


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## newhaul

Bfn I would be happy to assist you in the removal and disposal of your propane stove if that is intact the route you ultimately go


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## barefootnavigator

copacabana said:


> Don't kid yourself about the safety of alcohol. A spill can quickly turn into a fire and the flames are almost invisible. There are MANY accidents here involving alcohol, which is commonly used for cleaning, starting BBQs, fires etc. It's dangerous enough that the government has stopped the sale of 98% alcohol to the public and only permits the sale of 48%, which doesn't really burn all that well (being half water). I wonder if a simple propane setup where you run a straight hose to the stove and always turn the gas off at the bottle isn't safer, cheaper and easier in the end. It's hard to beat the compact BTUs and availability of propane.


Heres my situation I have a very nice stainless steel stove/oven. it was installed by the second owner, for 13 years he used it with the propane bottle under the berth, yes thats what I just said. I am primarily engineless so I don't rely on electricity for any system on the boat, having said that my most complex system is my galley sink. So no electronic solenoid on this boat. i have a valve and could mount the hose through my deck and mount it at the base of the mast. This is how the boat was designed. Having sailed on other boats like mine the staysail sheets always seem to hang up on the tank so I would need to build a deck box. I can do all of this but will still in theory have to walk on deck every time I want to cook. I have had systems like this before and they are a total pain in the ass. Add all the complexity and expenses and I still have a very heavy stove causing the boat to list due to its small light size. Surely there must be a safer easier solution.


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## copacabana

barefootnavigator said:


> Heres my situation I have a very nice stainless steel stove/oven. it was installed by the second owner, for 13 years he used it with the propane bottle under the berth, yes thats what I just said. I am primarily engineless so I don't rely on electricity for any system on the boat, having said that my most complex system is my galley sink. So no electronic solenoid on this boat. i have a valve and could mount the hose through my deck and mount it at the base of the mast. This is how the boat was designed. Having sailed on other boats like mine the staysail sheets always seem to hang up on the tank so I would need to build a deck box. I can do all of this but will still in theory have to walk on deck every time I want to cook. I have had systems like this before and they are a total pain in the ass. Add all the complexity and expenses and I still have a very heavy stove causing the boat to list due to its small light size. Surely there must be a safer easier solution.


Hookie, I'm not questioning your motives. You know better than anyone what works best on your boat. For what it's worth, I ripped out the propane installation on my boat, chucked the solenoid and many connections and went with a single hose run from the tank to the stove. I thought the "standard" installation too complex and full of potential leaks (lots of fittings, hose clamps etc.). Now I simply open a locker in the cockpit and turn the gas off at the bottle when I'm not using the stove.

What stove are you chucking BTW? If the shipping isn't too much to Brazil, I might be interested in buying it from you. I need to replace mine soon.


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## newhaul

Here ya go frugal and light weight Origo Heat Pal 5000 Alcohol Stove,Boating-Camping for the stove / space heater and here's the cheap way for fuel 5GAL Denatured Alcohol: Paint & Home Decor : Walmart.com with free shipping site to store at any walmart


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## MedSailor

copacabana said:


> Hookie, I'm not questioning your motives. You know better than anyone what works best on your boat....


+1 on the above, couldn't have said it better.

Another alternative, is to keep the propane but NOT follow all the ABYC guidelines and install all the stuff. I ran a regular bottle, via rubber propane hose through a small cutout hole in my window and down to my coleman camping stove. This was later upgraded to a marine propane stove, but the safety stuff wasn't added or upgraded.

I figured these things don't routinely leak, if they did, then every bubba with an unmaintained BBQ would be making a mushroom cloud each weekend. I also surmised that I didn't need a sniffer, because I have a nose.

So, back when I was cruising on $500/month on my wooden boat this is what worked for me. Is it spec? Is it recommended by the safety experts? Heck no. Did I die? No. Will you die in a fiery conflagration? Maybe.

Take this advice at your own peril, but it is an option.

MedSailor


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## hellsop

copacabana said:


> It's dangerous enough that the government has stopped the sale of 98% alcohol to the public and only permits the sale of 48%, which doesn't really burn all that well (being half water).


That's not fuel; that's just bad cachaça.


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## hellosailor

eh-
Wow, 1985! And I have no memory of that movie itself. I guess it wasn't an award winner.(G) The YouRube [sic] reposter could have at least given the source credit. Thanks for looking that up.


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## barefootnavigator

Is there any reason I can't just use paraffin in the origo?


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## rgp

barefootnavigator said:


> Is there any reason I can't just use paraffin in the origo?





copacabana said:


> RGP, not trying to highjack the thread, but since you brought it up...
> My next big upgrade is a new LPG stove with oven and I have been looking at the Dickinson Mediterranean and the Force 10. How is the Dickinson better and does it justify the roughly 400 dollar difference?


I looked for a stove with the most btu's. When baking bread we start at 500 degrees and the force ten didn't like getting up that high, the Dickinson, no problem. The big burner on the stove top also has more btu's than the old force 10.
One the down side, the Dickinson looks more industrial.
I'd spend the extra money again.


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## hellosailor

In the States, paraffin means wax.
In the UK, it means paraffin oil, which we Colonials call kerosene. (Which used to be a trade name here, like Kleenex or Scotch tape.)

Neither one burns well in an alcohol stove.


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## MastUndSchotbruch

hellosailor said:


> In the States, paraffin means wax.
> In the UK, it means paraffin oil, which we Colonials call kerosene. (Which used to be a trade name here, like Kleenex or Scotch tape.)
> 
> Neither one burns well in an alcohol stove.


True.

But you can change the burners in a pressurized alcohol stove which makes it a perfectly good kerosene stove.

We have been through this before many times. I will still say it again: IMHO by far the best cooking fuel on a sailboat is kerosene. Safest of all fuels, excellent availability worldwide, high BTU, low cost... What else do you want?


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## newhaul

barefootnavigator said:


> Is there any reason I can't just use paraffin in the origo?


Unpressurised I would not recommend it due to lower temperature and incomplete combustion kero/parrifin needs to be preheated to vaporise correctly and in a pressurised unit yes you can just need to change the orifices in the burners 
kero is .011 inch and my research says it will work just fine once preheated with alcohol


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## MikeOReilly

rgp said:


> I looked for a stove with the most btu's. When baking bread we start at 500 degrees and the force ten didn't like getting up that high, the Dickinson, no problem. The big burner on the stove top also has more btu's than the old force 10.
> 
> One the down side, the Dickinson looks more industrial.
> 
> I'd spend the extra money again.


Just popped three loaves out of my Force 10 propane. I bake at 350 to 400 F. I bake a lot of bread and never go to 500 F. What kind of bread are you making?

Our big burner is mostly too hot for anything other than boiling water. I much prefer the smaller, cooler burner for most cooking tasks. What are you cooking that needs such high, intense heat?

Not dissing the Dickinsons. They look great. But from my experience the Forece 10s are great stoves. I actually think they sized the burner BTUs quite smartly.

Why go fast, when you can go slow


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## MastUndSchotbruch

newhaul said:


> my research says it will work just fine once preheated with alcohol


confirmed by my practical experience


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## Puddin'_Tain

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> True.
> 
> But you can change the burners in a pressurized alcohol stove which makes it a perfectly good kerosene stove.
> 
> We have been through this before many times. I will still say it again: IMHO by far the best cooking fuel on a sailboat is kerosene. Safest of all fuels, excellent availability worldwide, high BTU, low cost... What else do you want?


If it wasn't for the odor I would agree with you. A closed kerosene or diesel stove (one that vents directly outside the cabin, like the Wallas stoves) would be ideal -- IMHO -- if it wasn't for the price.


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## MastUndSchotbruch

Puddin'_Tain said:


> If it wasn't for the odor I would agree with you. A closed kerosene or diesel stove (one that vents directly outside the cabin, like the Wallas stoves) would be ideal -- IMHO -- if it wasn't for the price.


We have been through that, too.

Kerosene has *no odor* if it is burned in the vaporized state, as is done in a properly heated burner.

I agree with you that it stinks when it is burned in a wick. To the point that the kerosene wall lamp I have in the cabin gives me a headache after a half hour or so. I don't use it anymore except when the companionway is wide open.

And of course kerosene smells if you spill it, just as would happen with diesel, gas, alcohol, etc. Let's not go to what happens when you 'spill' propane...

But the burning stove has no smell at all.


----------



## mbianka

I dismantled parts of the Hillerange gimbled stove/oven on board after I saw the corrosion on the headers to the burners and looked at the cost to refurbish it. Bought a single burner Coleman burner that fits on the stove top very nicely. 
Been using it for two years now and works very well. Also have a butane stove as a backup and if I should ever need to use two burners so far never had the need. One pound propane canisters last me several weeks each. Eventually will refill them from the 11 pound tank via an adapter.


----------



## newhaul

mbianka said:


> I dismantled parts of the Hillerange gimbled stove/oven on board after I saw the corrosion on the headers to the burners and looked at the cost to refurbish it. Bought a single burner Coleman burner that fits on the stove top very nicely.
> Been using it for two years now and works very well. Also have a butane stove as a backup and if I should ever need to use two burners so far never had the need. One pound propane canisters last me several weeks each. Eventually will refill them from the 11 pound tank via an adapter.


I don't know if the adapter will refill the disposable unit with the new opd valve on cylinders in the united states or not would like to know for sure but here's what I use on my little propane stove Purchase the Coleman 5' Propane Hose and Adapter for less at Walmart.com. Save money. Live better.


----------



## Puddin'_Tain

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> We have been through that, too.
> 
> Kerosene has *no odor* if it is burned in the vaporized state, as is done in a properly heated burner.
> ...


YOU may not be able to detect an odor, but there is definitely an odor. I have used a number of pressurized kero stoves over the years, and ALL of them had a detectable odor. As far as I'm concerned the odor wasn't overbearing in most cases, but it was there. The big problem for me is that my wife is really bothered by such odors, and hydrocarbon fumes (of all sorts) tend to aggravate her asthma if she is exposed to them for long enough periods.


----------



## Capt Len

Used a two burner Primus for years (still have it if anyone is interested) Pre heat with butane torch really helped with the odour.and safer than methyl hydrate. Did a lot of canning with 20 litre pressure cooker . Was great and kerosene fuel costs negligible. The fragrance of coffee and hydrocarbons in the morning, Ahhh!


----------



## MastUndSchotbruch

Puddin'_Tain said:


> YOU may not be able to detect an odor, but there is definitely an odor. I have used a number of pressurized kero stoves over the years, and ALL of them had a detectable odor. As far as I'm concerned the odor wasn't overbearing in most cases, but it was there. The big problem for me is that my wife is really bothered by such odors, and hydrocarbon fumes (of all sorts) tend to aggravate her asthma if she is exposed to them for long enough periods.


I do not doubt that there are individuals who are unusually sensitive to certain substances. Unfortunately, it sounds like your wife is one of them with regards to hydrocarbon fumes. Clearly, a kero stove then would not be the best solution.


----------



## MastUndSchotbruch

Capt Len said:


> Used a two burner Primus for years (still have it if anyone is interested) Pre heat with butane torch really helped with the odour.and safer than methyl hydrate. Did a lot of canning with 20 litre pressure cooker . Was great and kerosene fuel costs negligible. The fragrance of coffee and hydrocarbons in the morning, Ahhh!


Actually, I have to say that I like the little ritual of getting my kero stove going, waiting the 3 minutes while the alcohol preheats the burners. Reminds me that I am fortunate enough to be on my boat! And it seems somehow more salty than turning a gas knob which is what I do at home.


----------



## rgp

MikeOReilly said:


> Just popped three loaves out of my Force 10 propane. I bake at 350 to 400 F. I bake a lot of bread and never go to 500 F. What kind of bread are you making?
> 
> Our big burner is mostly too hot for anything other than boiling water. I much prefer the smaller, cooler burner for most cooking tasks. What are you cooking that needs such high, intense heat?
> 
> Not dissing the Dickinsons. They look great. But from my experience the Forece 10s are great stoves. I actually think they sized the burner BTUs quite smartly.
> 
> Why go fast, when you can go slow


I use recipes from the book Artisan Bread in Five Minuets, it calls for the oven to be 450 at start, but even with a baking stone in the oven there is a lot of heat loss in the small ovens when the door is opened, so I like to start with a hotter oven. I also like to get the oven to 500 for pizza. The extra btu's come in handy when baking a big frozen meal, my force 10 didn't have the oomph to stay at temp, took too long to get back to temp with a big frozen lasagna in it.
The bigger burner sure works well for getting a Big pot of water boiling for cooking crabs, pasta, and getting the pressure cooker to boil faster, it can be too much for more delicate stove top work.
My force ten was a fine stove, and served me well for years. I find the Dickinson to be less of a compromise from a home stove.


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## MikeOReilly

rgp said:


> My force ten was a fine stove, and served me well for years. I find the Dickinson to be less of a compromise from a home stove.


Thanks. Sounds like a good choice.

Why go fast, when you can go slow


----------



## SVAuspicious

mbianka said:


> One pound propane canisters last me several weeks each. Eventually will refill them from the 11 pound tank via an adapter.


I don't like to use the one pound canisters inside the boat and I _definitely_ don't like refilling them. The shut-off valve in the neck of the canister is not designed for the number of cycles they would be exposed to and the chance of leaks is way too high.


----------



## Minnesail

rgp said:


> I use recipes from the book Artisan Bread in Five Minuets, it calls for the oven to be 450 at start, but even with a baking stone in the oven there is a lot of heat loss in the small ovens when the door is opened, so I like to start with a hotter oven.


I use recipes from that book at home a lot, and I've been tempted to try it on a boat trip but I was worried the little oven might not be up to it.

Did they work at all on a typical boat over, or was it complete fail?


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## MedSailor

They work but they do loose heat quickly when the door is opened so the tip to preheat higher than ypu intend to cook is spot on. 

10 years living aboard and cookies and we had great results baking. 

I also agree about the stoves with higher heat output. Thr sooner you get back up to temp the more consistent the results are. I used a Magic Chef stove from an RV in my wooden boat and it's heat output was anemic compared to my Force 10 stoves.

Also the artesian bread in 5min per day is an awesome book. I've been using their technique to make bread for years. Its stupid easy but if you do try it make a half batch and LET THE DOUGH SIT OVERNIGHT BEFORE TRYING TO MAKE YOUR FIRST LOAF. Otherwise it is too sticky to work with. I almost gave up on the technique on the first try because of this.


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## Minnesail

MedSailor said:


> Also the artesian bread in 5min per day is an awesome book. I've been using their technique to make bread for years. Its stupid easy but if you do try it make a half batch and LET THE DOUGH SIT OVERNIGHT BEFORE TRYING TO MAKE YOUR FIRST LOAF. Otherwise it is too sticky to work with. I almost gave up on the technique on the first try because of this.


Agreed, the recipes work better after a day, and better yet after a couple days.

That's why I was thinking about it for boat trips. Do all the messy prep at home and just take the dough with you.

I suppose a baking stone or even a bunch of bricks, something with thermal mass, would help a lot.


----------



## MedSailor

Minnesail said:


> Agreed, the recipes work better after a day, and better yet after a couple days.
> 
> That's why I was thinking about it for boat trips. Do all the messy prep at home and just take the dough with you.
> 
> I suppose a baking stone or even a bunch of bricks, something with thermal mass, would help a lot.


I thought about that too but never persued it with my last stove. I have a new stove to learn now and may try tiles, bricks or a stone.


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## Faster

A bit of thread drift here, but wth....

We (ie my wife) makes an easy to pre-prepare beer bread that's worked out well in our Force 10.



> EASY BEER BREAD
> 
> BASIC MIX
> 
> •	3 cups all purpose flour (2 c white, 1 c whole wheat)
> •	1 TBSP sugar
> •	1 TBSP baking powder
> •	1 tsp salt
> •	12 oz beer
> 
> Additional ingredients:
> 
> •	2 tsp dried dill
> •	1 cup shredded aged cheddar
> •	½ cup pumpkin seeds
> •	½ cup sunflower seeds
> 
> Preheat oven to 375 deg.
> 
> Combine flour, sugar, baking powder, salt, dill, seeds and cheese in a large bowl. Slowly stir in beer; batter will be quite thick.
> 
> Spread into a greased loaf pan
> 
> Bake at 375 until golden brown and a toothpick comes out clean, about 45 min.
> 
> Cool on wire rack 10 mins, remove from pan.
> 
> Many variations possible. Check out Farmgire Fare: Beyond Easy Beer Bread.
> 
> *For a boat trip just mix dry ingredients into a large Ziploc ahead of time, add cheese and beer prior to baking.*


----------



## copacabana

Ron, the only mystery is what is the second ingredient in the "basic mix"... 2 TBSP of what?


----------



## Faster

copacabana said:


> Ron, the only mystery is what is the second ingredient in the "basic mix"... 2 TBSP of what?


Sorry.. fixed above; 1 TBSP sugar, not two.


----------



## Puddin'_Tain

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> I do not doubt that there are individuals who are unusually sensitive to certain substances. Unfortunately, it sounds like your wife is one of them with regards to hydrocarbon fumes. Clearly, a kero stove then would not be the best solution.


My point is that you are wrong when you claim that kerosene stoves produce no odor. They certainly do have a detectable odor, even when properly preheated and otherwise operated. Preheating the burner(s), and using high-grade fuel (synthetic kerosenes, and "liquid paraffin" lamp oil seem to work best) helps. But I've yet to find a kerosene stove that didn't have some odor associated with its use, particularly in the confines of a boat cabin.


----------



## rgp

Minnesail said:


> I use recipes from that book at home a lot, and I've been tempted to try it on a boat trip but I was worried the little oven might not be up to it.
> 
> Did they work at all on a typical boat over, or was it complete fail?


It worked fine, but takes more time than at home to bake. 
We use a cooking stone in the oven, but don't do the baking directly on it, too much of a mess with the corn meal. We use a eight inch baking pan with out a lip, we rise the dough on it and then straight on to the stone that's in the oven, a lot less mess. We spent the past summer and fall in Alaska and some times it was a bit cool in the boat for the rise prior to baking, so we used the heat of the oven to raise the dough by placing the baking pan with the dough on the stove top to rise.
Good luck


----------



## MikeOReilly

I bake bread all the time, on board or on land. I used to follow recipes, but now mostly just wing it. Here's my basic bread:


Put warm water into a mixing bowl. Add table spoon or two of sugar (or honey). Toss in some yeast or sourdough. Wait until it froths up.
Throw in some salt (~tea spoon/cup water) and some oil (~table spoon/cup of water).
Toss in enough flour so you can stir vigourously without it splashing all over the place: consistency of runny ketchup or BBQ sauce.
Beat the hell out of it with a spoon for a few minutes -- until the batter takes on a slight sheen
Toss in more flour until you can kneed it without it being too sticky.
Work out all your frustrations by punching and kneading away.
Put a warm towel over the bowl and leave it in a warm place. Let it rise.
Punch it down and kneed it a few more times over the intervening hours.
Place dough in pans, and cook at around 350-400F until it pops out of pan and sounds a bit hollow when you knock on the bottom of the loaf.
You can augment this basic approach with lots of additions. I like putting hearty grains into the batter (bran, cornmeal, flax), or I spice it up with savoury spices. Add some eggs to make it more moist, or spray and coat the cooking bread to produce a thicker, chewier crust. You can use the same approach to make buns, or add more oil to make pizza dough.
The best thing about bread is that it is hard to really screw it up. Even a bad loaf is still pretty good.


----------



## mbianka

MikeOReilly said:


> Just popped three loaves out of my Force 10 propane. I bake at 350 to 400 F. I bake a lot of bread and never go to 500 F. What kind of bread are you making?
> 
> Our big burner is mostly too hot for anything other than boiling water. I much prefer the smaller, cooler burner for most cooking tasks. What are you cooking that needs such high, intense heat?
> 
> Not dissing the Dickinsons. They look great. But from my experience the Forece 10s are great stoves. I actually think they sized the burner BTUs quite smartly.
> 
> Why go fast, when you can go slow


Mike:

FYI Just bought a Zojirushi 1 Lb bread maker earlier this year and run it oft my 48 volt inverter. Uses only 2.2% of my battery capacity that is easily made up by my solar panels and wind turbine. Have also made Pizza dough with it and cooked it on my stove in a cast iron pan. Came out real well. Been using a single propane burner for two years now after dismantling twenty four year old Seaward stove/oven with corroding gas header. Don't miss the oven at all.


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## MastUndSchotbruch

Puddin'_Tain said:


> My point is that you are wrong when you claim that kerosene stoves produce no odor. They certainly do have a detectable odor, even when properly preheated and otherwise operated. Preheating the burner(s), and using high-grade fuel (synthetic kerosenes, and "liquid paraffin" lamp oil seem to work best) helps. But I've yet to find a kerosene stove that didn't have some odor associated with its use, particularly in the confines of a boat cabin.


My point is that you may not have experienced a well maintained and properly preheated stove or oven.

But don't take my word for it, here is what Good Old Boat has to say about it: "A well-maintained and properly running [kerosene] stove is odorless and soot-free without any flammable fumes to worry about." Good Old Boat - A clean look at the "dirty" half dozen article


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## Puddin'_Tain

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> My point is that you may not have experienced a well maintained and properly preheated stove or oven.
> 
> But don't take my word for it, here is what Good Old Boat has to say about it: "A well-maintained and properly running [kerosene] stove is odorless and soot-free without any flammable fumes to worry about." Good Old Boat - A clean look at the "dirty" half dozen article


I have almost 40 years of experience with kerosene stoves. I find in extremely hard to believe that most of them, much less ALL of them, were not working properly. As I indicated earlier, I don't find the odor particularly offensive, but there definitely IS an odor.


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## aeventyr60

While we are drifting on bread...I was given a double walled bread baking pan....awesome. For a crustier crust I spray a bit of water in the oven just before popping the loaf in.


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## MastUndSchotbruch

Puddin'_Tain said:


> I have almost 40 years of experience with kerosene stoves. I find in extremely hard to believe that most of them, much less ALL of them, were not working properly. As I indicated earlier, I don't find the odor particularly offensive, but there definitely IS an odor.


Good enough for me. Perhaps there is a slight odor, and some people are more sensitive to it than others (as for most things in life). I will place myself happily in the odor-challenged category.


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## Don L

Puddin'_Tain said:


> I don't find the odor particularly offensive, but there definitely IS an odor.


Well that is one to chalk up to the nose of the beholder


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## miatapaul

Minnesail said:


> Agreed, the recipes work better after a day, and better yet after a couple days.
> 
> That's why I was thinking about it for boat trips. Do all the messy prep at home and just take the dough with you.
> 
> I suppose a baking stone or even a bunch of bricks, something with thermal mass, would help a lot.


I have been using the thick unglazed tile for years at home. I cut it to fit the size of the oven. Go to a quality tile supplier and get a European or US made tile as I don't trust the Mexican/Asian tile to truly be lead free. Bread and pizza comes out excellent.


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## MedSailor

Do you put the tile on top of the rack in the oven or below it somehow?

Med


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## mbianka

SVAuspicious said:


> I don't like to use the one pound canisters inside the boat and I _definitely_ don't like refilling them. The shut-off valve in the neck of the canister is not designed for the number of cycles they would be exposed to and the chance of leaks is way too high.


Yeah there is a risk with all types cooking on board. But a simple bubble test will check for leaks and having a gas alarm doesn't hurt either. I'm comfortable with just a one pound canister as compared to the quarter century old rubber hose snaking it's way underneath the floorboards and flexing with the movement of the stove hooked up to an 11 pound propane tank. Though what really got me to rethink how I use propane was seeing the corrosion of the iron gas header under the shiny stainless steel stove top. It was a "yikes" moment for me.


----------



## miatapaul

MedSailor said:


> Do you put the tile on top of the rack in the oven or below it somehow?
> 
> Med


I put it on the lower rack. Left it there all the time as about the only time I use the oven is for bread or pizza.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk


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## Yofy

If you do chuck your Force 10 stove, could you send it over here. Ours is begining to show its age and I'd love a new one. 

Robyn


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## mbianka

Just a reminder to always take a look under that shiny stainless steel cooktop of the stove got some photos here that started me rethinking how I use propane on board:
THE BIANKA LOG BLOG: RETHINKING PROPANE ON BOARD


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## Minnesail

MedSailor said:


> Do you put the tile on top of the rack in the oven or below it somehow?


In my home oven I leave my baking stone on the bottom rack all the time, unless I need the rack for something else. Even though it's a good oven I still think it helps even out the heat a little bit. Also it's handy place to store it, and it keeps it nice and seasoned.


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## bratzcpa

We put the Origio non pressured stove into our boat. Works well. When we were in the Bahamas, we had no problem finding denatured alcohol. Every town with a hardware store had DA. It was cheaper there than at home. We used about 3 gallons in two months of cooking fulltime. 

I do like propane better (that's what we have in our cabin power boat) for the cooking, but this was simple, easy, and problem free. No plumbing, no solenoids, no valves, nothing to go wrong. Did I mention, very simple! That's a good thing . . . in my book.


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## miatapaul

mbianka said:


> Just a reminder to always take a look under that shiny stainless steel cooktop of the stove got some photos here that started me rethinking how I use propane on board:
> THE BIANKA LOG BLOG: RETHINKING PROPANE ON BOARD


Well that is just standard maintenance. The propane line should be replaced on a regular basis, likely every 7 years or so. They should be synthetic rubber of some sort so they don't work harden due to vibration like hard lines will.

The corrosion inside the stove looks like it has been happening for a while and you got lucky that you found it. the other thing to look out for as part of a standard maintenance routine is check the oven insulation for grease buildup. That can catch during a minor cooking fire and be impossible to put out.

But in no way would I go to a Colman stove inside the cabin.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk


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## newhaul

Bfn Here ya go an a alcohol gimbaled stove Alcohol boat/rv stove shoot me an email to schedule work on your lil dream. Offer him 30 or 40 bucks


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## newhaul

miatapaul said:


> But in no way would I go to a Colman stove inside the cabin.
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk


Why not I use a Coleman multi fuel stove with the same gasoline I use in my outboard. Also have a one burner propane camp stove and a Kenyon two burner alcohol stove and a one burner hotplate for when I have shore power


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## patrickrea

I put a Cookmate 2 burner stove in my Northward 1000 after ripping out the old pressurized alcohol stove. I ended up using methyl hydrate as my fuel. Dirt cheap and available at any hardware store.


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## Andrew65

I cook with a 2 burner camping stove with butane cylinders for now and it works well. They last about 2 weeks. I also have a wood oven for heat. I don't use it every day.

When I upgrade my cooking system, I want a better one, but which one. Propane scares me if I have a leak while having a fire going and kerosene, I hear, is temperamental. Which one might best to have with a wood stove onboard? Alcohol?

Andrew


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## MastUndSchotbruch

Andrew65 said:


> I cook with a 2 burner camping stove with butane cylinders for now and it works well. They last about 2 weeks. I also have a wood oven for heat. I don't use it every day.
> 
> When I upgrade my cooking system, I want a better one, but which one. Propane scares me if I have a leak while having a fire going and kerosene, I hear, is temperamental. Which one might best to have with a wood stove onboard? Alcohol?
> 
> Andrew


Nothing temperamental about kerosene. It is used by a billion people each days, and it is the traditional cooking fuel on yachts for a reason. People now prefer gas it because that's what they have at home.


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## Andrew65

Yeah, I been thinking this too. It'd let me feel safer with having a wood stove onboard. Taylor looks like what I would like to have. How much smell is there really? I like it, but the admiral...well...


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## copacabana

A billion people cook with querosene? Where? I'd say propane is the most-used cooking fuel world-wide. If you keep the propane installation simple (few connections where a leak can occur) and turn it off at the bottle, there is little to go wrong. A sniffer in the bilge is a good warning if something does leak. I ripped out my old installation with solenoid, by-pass (if you have no power for the solenoid), pressure meter, valves etc. and replaced it with a straight run from the bottle to a single valve in the locker and a direct run from the valve to the stove. The hose is well protected from any chafe. When I'm not cooking I turn off the gas at the bottle and at the valve. Not much to go wrong. I don't leave the hose pressurized unless I'm going to use the stove again shortly. I don't have a sniffer in the bilge, but will get one when I can (although with my installation and practices, it's overkill).


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## Andrew65

Sounds good, but would you use that rig with a wood stove onboard? I don't want to give that up.


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## copacabana

Andrew, I'm in Brazil, so I can't even contemplate having a wood stove! I don't see a problem having both though. I'm sure a wood stove also requires some safe operational practices to prevent fires on board.


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## Andrew65

Hehe! I didn't read your location. My bad.

Does it matter though? Bfn is asking about alternative cooking sytems and I'm just adding a twist to it. I'm sure there are other cruisers with a woodstove who have this concern.


----------



## MedSailor

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> Nothing temperamental about kerosene. It is used by a billion people each days, and it is the traditional cooking fuel on yachts for a reason. People now prefer gas it because that's what they have at home.


Another billion cook with wood or animal dung over an open fire.

I'm not a kero hater but if you offered most of those billion users a brand new gas range most would take it. Just saying' 

Medsailor


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## hellosailor

Why would propane scare you, when you are using practically the same fuel right now, butane?

The kerosene "stink" is probably a real genetic difference. Something like 25% of all people can't stand the "bitter" taste of some vegetables like Brussel sprouts, but the other 75% don't taste any bitterness at all. There are a number of scents/tastes that different genetic groups can or can't taste. Birds can't taste "hot" spices while squirrels won't touch bird food with cayenne mixed in. Dogs will lap up sweet antifreeze and kill themselves, while cats can't taste "sweet" at all. Or maybe I have that backwards.

If the wife thinks kero stinks, there is no grade of kerosene, no special burner, no nothing that will get rid of the nauseating stink for her.

And alcohol apparently causes more fires and burns than any other fuel, because of the invisible flame it burns with and the speed at which the fluid spreads. 

And in much of the world, wood is very expensive and cut seasoned firewood not easy to find.

All of this is old news, read the threads. Flip a coin, decide what makes you and the wife happy.


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## pdqaltair

My wife is a fine cook and she likes gas.

Nuf said.

---

However, I will add more. While the propane installation must be diligent, adding additional propane appliances (water heater, forced air heat, refrigerator) is simple. Like all gas appliances, other than occasional testing of the sensor, there is zero maintenance. The propane locker is a one-time cost that increases resale value (next buyer has a wife too) if done properly.

I guess I don't see how ripping out a working stove is going to be cheaper or easier, taking the long view.


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## MikeOReilly

I'm considering installing a wood stove on our boat. We have a propane system on board, and I don't see how the two would be a problem. Propane can be dangerous, just like gasoline, alcohol, butane, or even diesel/kerosene and electricity. Just like with all things, if managed correctly, propane is very safe, and has many superior qualities for the cruising sailboat.

Our system is fairly simple. Our storage tank sits outside on the cabin (not inside any compartment). We always turn the valve off at the tank when not in use, and we always drain the hoses (let the burners burn out) from the solenoid switch on. Our stove's burners have cut-off valves if the burners go out, so all in all, I feel pretty safe.

BTW, our previous boat had a pressure alcohol stove. I never had a problem this either.


----------



## captbillc

i have a 2 burner force 10 propane stove. i would not swap it for anything else. i have cooked with alcohol & kerosene & didn't care for either, so on my own boat i like propane.


----------



## mbianka

miatapaul said:


> Well that is just standard maintenance. The propane line should be replaced on a regular basis, likely every 7 years or so. They should be synthetic rubber of some sort so they don't work harden due to vibration like hard lines will.
> 
> The corrosion inside the stove looks like it has been happening for a while and you got lucky that you found it. the other thing to look out for as part of a standard maintenance routine is check the oven insulation for grease buildup. That can catch during a minor cooking fire and be impossible to put out.
> 
> But in no way would I go to a Colman stove inside the cabin.
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk


Yeah it was kind of a yikes moment when I saw the corrosion. But, replacing the propane line every seven years especially one that is so nicely laced in place is another reason I'm glad I went with the Coleman burner. Been using it for two seasons now and find it a cost effective solution to replacing the burners and headers on the old stove. Had three burners but, only rarely used two. Plus I don't have to worry about that aging propane line either or the flexing connection behind the stove. But, to each his own. It is up to each individual to evaluate the risks of cooking processes. I'm comfortable with this choice.


----------



## captain jack

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> We have been through that, too.
> 
> Kerosene has *no odor* if it is burned in the vaporized state, as is done in a properly heated burner.
> 
> I agree with you that it stinks when it is burned in a wick. To the point that the kerosene wall lamp I have in the cabin gives me a headache after a half hour or so. I don't use it anymore except when the companionway is wide open.
> 
> And of course kerosene smells if you spill it, just as would happen with diesel, gas, alcohol, etc. Let's not go to what happens when you 'spill' propane...
> 
> But the burning stove has no smell at all.


i thought they made stoves out of non burning material? it would be bad to have your stove burn!:laugher


----------



## captain jack

through all of this discussion, the thing that amazes me is that there are people that bake bread while on a sailboat! :laugher


----------



## mbianka

captain jack said:


> through all of this discussion, the thing that amazes me is that there are people that bake bread while on a sailboat! :laugher


Not only bake bread but, make pizza dough too! Though I am using a small one pound bread maker via and inverter to do it. Making some cookies is next on the list of things to try. Amazing what you can do with a small breadmaker and a 12 inch iron skillet on board. Who needs an oven!


----------



## MikeOReilly

captain jack said:


> through all of this discussion, the thing that amazes me is that there are people that bake bread while on a sailboat! :laugher


You bet! Our little Force-10 stove can manage three small loafs. Cookies, baking, melts... We love our oven. Haven't made pizza in there yet mbianka, but will give it a try soon.


----------



## Capt Len

Made cookies in a big square tin box on a primus mid Atlantic to Caribe. So good we soon ran out of the makings. Hadn't planned on baking and we were only out for 34 days anyway.(my old 2 burner kerosene primus (white enamel) is still sitting unloved in the basement if some one wants to upgrade.)


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## MastUndSchotbruch

copacabana said:


> A billion people cook with querosene? Where?


Easily. In India alone 160 million households which is already close to a billion people.


----------



## MastUndSchotbruch

MedSailor said:


> Another billion cook with wood or animal dung over an open fire.
> 
> I'm not a kero hater but if you offered most of those billion users a brand new gas range most would take it. Just saying'
> 
> Medsailor


I agree with you, on both counts. Kerosene is actually a big step up from burning dung. (Although it is not only the developing world that uses kerosene on a large scale. Kerosene is the number-one heating fuel in hyper-techie Japan).

And I agree that most would prefer a gas range over a kerosene stove.

As a matter of fact, I do, too. I have a gas range at home, not a kerosene stove.

But we are talking boats here, not houses. The gas I use at home is natural gas (mainly methane) which is lighter than air. The gas we are discussing is propane which is heavier than air.

Since houses don't have bilges, this might not make much of a difference. But boats do have bilges. And gases heavier than air love to congregate in the bilge. Until a spark comes along. Feel free to google with keywords like 'propane explosion on boat.'

That's why I have natural gas in my house (much more convenient than kerosene) and kerosene in my boat (much safer than propane).


----------



## Capt Len

Burners and parts are so available and inexpensive in India and they mail stuff too.


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## hellsop

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> I agree with you, on both counts. Kerosene is actually a big step up from burning dung. (Although it is not only the developing world that uses kerosene on a large scale. Kerosene is the number-one heating fuel in hyper-techie Japan).


Mostly because Japan doesn't have many natural gas pipeline options, and it seldom gets much below freezing, even in Hokkaido, below the mountains. A big kerosene space heater is pretty much all most places would need to maintain tolerable warmth, if not necessarily shirt-sleeve comfort. And since you have to move fuel by trucks, you might as well move something that doesn't require pressure storage. Most of the cooking, though, is done with electricity. A two-burner Hotplate cooktops, electric kettles and air-pot shaped boilers, stand-alone rice cookers are pretty much what you can expect in a typical kitchen. Sometimes supplemented by a canister-fired portable gas burner for at-table cooking.


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## newhaul

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> Easily. In India alone 160 million households which is already close to a billion people.


Actually lots cook on home biogas methane from small scale generators not good on a boat but great in a house or apartment. Want to Build a Biogas Digester? Find Free Plans! | The Complete Biogas Handbook


----------



## hpeer

FWIW, we have kero stoves, and bulkhead heaters in both our boats. The wife wnd I dab diesel on before foreplay so the odor isn't an issue. She has had some "issues" getting the burners lite, but she is German and we are working on that. 

Personally I really like the darn things. I don't find the problems other people have, or I'm very patient and tolerant, my Wife says we don't have problems.


----------



## captain jack

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> I agree with you, on both counts. Kerosene is actually a big step up from burning dung. (Although it is not only the developing world that uses kerosene on a large scale. Kerosene is the number-one heating fuel in hyper-techie Japan).
> 
> And I agree that most would prefer a gas range over a kerosene stove.
> 
> As a matter of fact, I do, too. I have a gas range at home, not a kerosene stove.
> 
> But we are talking boats here, not houses. The gas I use at home is natural gas (mainly methane) which is lighter than air. The gas we are discussing is propane which is heavier than air.
> 
> Since houses don't have bilges, this might not make much of a difference. But boats do have bilges. And gases heavier than air love to congregate in the bilge. Until a spark comes along. Feel free to google with keywords like 'propane explosion on boat.'
> 
> That's why I have natural gas in my house (much more convenient than kerosene) and kerosene in my boat (much safer than propane).


hate to be a spoil sport but, natural gas can be deadly, too. it's not as common as propane on boats but it does happen.


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## westsailpatti

The Origo works for us . We get Alc. at Home Depot for $10./gal. per 5gal. purchase. 
Hey Alan what happened to the blog. ?


----------



## captain jack

westsailpatti said:


> The Origo works for us . We get Alc. at Home Depot for $10./gal. per 5gal. purchase.
> Hey Alan what happened to the blog. ?


how long does it usually last you? not the stove. the alcohol


----------



## newhaul

westsailpatti said:


> The Origo works for us . We get Alc. at Home Depot for $10./gal. per 5gal. purchase.
> Hey Alan what happened to the blog. ?


Where are you located its about 15 a gal here at Lowes home depot and Walmart in the pnw Seattle area


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## hellosailor

Assuming that kerosene really is the #1 heating fuel in Japan, bear in mind that Japan is earthquake country. And with a memory of WW2 firebombings and wood and paper houses? Add earthquakes and municipal gas pipes are not going to be greeted with cheers.

There can be many valid local reasons for a fuel choice, doesn't mean it is the best fuel for anyplace else, just that it works for historical and geographical reasons someplace.

Just as dung may be best in the Kahlahari.


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## captain jack

hellosailor said:


> Assuming that kerosene really is the #1 heating fuel in Japan, bear in mind that Japan is earthquake country. And with a memory of WW2 firebombings and wood and paper houses? Add earthquakes and municipal gas pipes are not going to be greeted with cheers.
> 
> *There can be many valid local reasons for a fuel choice, doesn't mean it is the best fuel for anyplace else, just that it works for historical and geographical reasons someplace.
> *
> Just as dung may be best in the Kahlahari.


excellent point. one that also applies to fuel on a boat. i hadn't even thought about Japan's seismic nature when i read the post about kero use there. that would be a great reason not to want natural gas piped into your house.


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## westsailpatti

captain jack said:


> how long does it usually last you? not the stove. the alcohol


 When we are away from shore power and were making coffee and cooking big meals (ie) boiling large pots of water we go through about a gal. per two weeks , I think . But to tell you the truth really, we cook about the same when were at the dock . I think for next summer we will get a hot plate , for at the dock . That should take some pressure of the alc. supply .


----------



## newhaul

westsailpatti said:


> When we are away from shore power and were making coffee and cooking big meals (ie) boiling large pots of water we go through about a gal. per two weeks , I think . But to tell you the truth really, we cook about the same when were at the dock . I think for next summer we will get a hot plate , for at the dock . That should take some pressure of the alc. supply .


I did that last winter and it really cut the years cooking fuel usage got mine at a second hand store for 3 bucks and it don't take long to save that in fuel


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## Leocat66

We are now permanent cruisers and use a Taylor's kerosene 030 with oven with kerosene or Klean Heat. Fuel always available, safe and not too pricy. 

No propane allowed below decks but we do use gas canisters in BBQ and outside burner Sea Swing for summer cooking outside.

Our microwave also has a bake and toast feature and doubles as a second oven.

Last boat had Origo / Electric combo which we liked a lot and would be our second choice.


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## hellosailor

Since mains gas is so much safer...does that mean the dozens of homes, businesses, and occasional shopping mall, oh, yes, and the two six story apartment buildings that blew up in Manhattan last year? All had attic bilges where the safe light gas collected before it blew them up?

Gas is gas is fuel and fuel is usually SUPPOSED TO EXPLODE.

The only question is in the controlled manner of the explosion. That's how internal combustion engines work, and how they're fueled by propane, LNG, diesel, kero, gasoline, and just about everything except wood and coal. Which are generally called poor fuels because they don't explode. (Well, then again there's always coal dust, that does a nice number too.)


----------



## captain jack

westsailpatti said:


> When we are away from shore power and were making coffee and cooking big meals (ie) boiling large pots of water we go through about a gal. per two weeks , I think . But to tell you the truth really, we cook about the same when were at the dock . I think for next summer we will get a hot plate , for at the dock . That should take some pressure of the alc. supply .


that doesn't sound like a terrible price. $20 to $30 a month.


----------



## captain jack

hellosailor said:


> Since mains gas is so much safer...does that mean the dozens of homes, businesses, and occasional shopping mall, oh, yes, and the two six story apartment buildings that blew up in Manhattan last year? All had attic bilges where the safe light gas collected before it blew them up?
> 
> Gas is gas is fuel and fuel is usually SUPPOSED TO EXPLODE.
> 
> The only question is in the controlled manner of the explosion. That's how internal combustion engines work, and how they're fueled by propane, LNG, diesel, kero, gasoline, and just about everything except wood and coal. Which are generally called poor fuels because they don't explode. (Well, then again there's always coal dust, that does a nice number too.)


actually, internal engines work on a controlled burn of fuel air mixture not an explosion. the spark ignites the compressed fuel air mixture and it burns. as it burns, the expanding gases push the piston down. an explosion (detonation) is what happens if your motor has too high a compression for the grade of the fuel you are using. in that case, the compression causes the fuel to reach it's flash point before it hits the spark and, instead of a controlled burn pushing the piston down, you get an explosion. detonation causes poor performance.

fuel is fuel because it burns not because it explodes. exploding is a an unfortunate outcome of something going wrong. of course, not all fuel is explosive. wood for instance, doesn't tend to blow up.


----------



## Pendragon35

I have a two burner Origo, no pressurized alcohol stove. Works great, I was surprised at how easy it is to use. I don't do a lot of cooking (making various things with hot water, cooking some eggs, heating a one dish meal). I never quite got the point of ovens on most boats; who bakes/roasts in them? We also have a grill for cooking burgers/fish/grilled veggies. That uses the little bottles of propane but it's all outside on the rail, so no need for all the plumbing. It's nice setup.


----------



## newhaul

Pendragon35 said:


> . I never quite got the point of ovens on most boats; who bakes/roasts in them? We also have a grill for cooking burgers/fish/grilled veggies. That uses the little bottles of propane but it's all outside on the rail, so no need for all the plumbing. It's nice setup.


Nothing like fresh hot biscuits or fresh cookies except mabey fresh from the oven bread .


----------



## abarth

If space, weight or cost where to figure in your decision, here a few numbers from the interhypermegaweb that I put together:

----------------------MJ/litre-------	MJ/kg------$/MJ	
diesel________35.9_______42.9_____$29
kerosene_____35.2_______43.7_____$81	
gasoline______32.7_______44.2_____$25
LPG_________24.7_______46.3_____$41
hard coal_____20.6*______25.7______$8
Ethanol denat._20.1______25.1_____$263
methanol_____15.8______19.8______$175
hardwood_____10.1*_____19.5______$13
.* - at typical bulk density	

So, ethanol has a little more heat than methanol. Sometimes 'stove fuel' is a mix of the two. It looks like a typical stove fuel might have half the energy per gallon of kerosene and costs 2-3 times as much. Propane looks like a pretty smart choice volume and cost wise. Diesel wins on all counts if you can manage it. I used typical US rates like $1/lb for lpg, 11$/gal for kero and methanol, 20$/gal for denatured ethanol, $4/gal for road diesel, $270/cord for wood and $200/ton for coal.


----------



## captain jack

abarth said:


> If space, weight or cost where to figure in your decision, here a few numbers from the interhypermegaweb that I put together:
> 
> ----------------------MJ/litre-------	MJ/kg------$/MJ
> diesel________35.9_______42.9_____$29
> kerosene_____35.2_______43.7_____$81
> gasoline______32.7_______44.2_____$25
> LPG_________24.7_______46.3_____$41
> hard coal_____20.6*______25.7______$8
> Ethanol denat._20.1______25.1_____$263
> methanol_____15.8______19.8______$175
> hardwood_____10.1*_____19.5______$13
> .* - at typical bulk density
> 
> So, ethanol has a little more heat than methanol. Sometimes 'stove fuel' is a mix of the two. It looks like a typical stove fuel might have half the energy per gallon of kerosene and costs 2-3 times as much. Propane looks like a pretty smart choice volume and cost wise. Diesel wins on all counts if you can manage it. I used typical US rates like $1/lb for lpg, 11$/gal for kero and methanol, 20$/gal for denatured ethanol, $4/gal for road diesel, $270/cord for wood and $200/ton for coal.


$11 a gallon for kero? wow that's a lot higher than two years ago. last i bought it it was around $4 a gallon. i would have thought that, with the dropping costs of gas, it might have gone down; not nearly tripled. i will have to look at the price, here, to see what it is locally.

back when i used to burn wood, i used pallet wood. if you look around, it can generally be had for free. it takes a bit more work to cut up but, it is far dryer than most cord wood and it's often hardwood like oak. it tends to burn much hotter and last longer meaning you can use less to get the same heat.

this has nothing to do with cooking stoves but...actually, i have been thinking of fabbing up a small solid fuel stove to heat the boat with. if i decide to do that, i will almost certainly use pallet wood. the only real downside i can see to pallet wood (outside of being harder to chop) is you get nails in the ashes. not sure i'd use it for cooking unless i already had a fire going for heat. as a cooking fuel, it would take longer to start and add a lot of heat to the cabin...not good in the summer.

attention: if anyone reads this and decides to try pallet wood, you have to make sure the pallets haven't been treated with chemicals to reduce rotting. most aren't but you need to make sure before you use a pallet. figured i'd better say that for safety sake. not healthy to burn treated wood.


----------



## MastUndSchotbruch

abarth said:


> If space, weight or cost where to figure in your decision, here a few numbers from the interhypermegaweb that I put together:
> 
> ----------------------MJ/litre-------	MJ/kg------$/MJ
> diesel________35.9_______42.9_____$29
> kerosene_____35.2_______43.7_____$81
> gasoline______32.7_______44.2_____$25
> LPG_________24.7_______46.3_____$41
> hard coal_____20.6*______25.7______$8
> Ethanol denat._20.1______25.1_____$263
> methanol_____15.8______19.8______$175
> hardwood_____10.1*_____19.5______$13
> .* - at typical bulk density
> 
> So, ethanol has a little more heat than methanol. Sometimes 'stove fuel' is a mix of the two. It looks like a typical stove fuel might have half the energy per gallon of kerosene and costs 2-3 times as much. Propane looks like a pretty smart choice volume and cost wise. Diesel wins on all counts if you can manage it. I used typical US rates like $1/lb for lpg, 11$/gal for kero and methanol, 20$/gal for denatured ethanol, $4/gal for road diesel, $270/cord for wood and $200/ton for coal.


Yeah, your price for kerosene is *way* off, by about a factor of three. Where did you get the $11.- per gallon?? The current price is below $4.- 
Average Kerosene Prices - NYSERDA

This is not surprising since it is essentially like diesel but with lower taxes. You list diesel at $4.- (I believe it is a bit lower by now) and kerosene is slightly below that.


----------



## abarth

Fair enough. I saw Homedepot with 1g jugs at 11, Lowes 5g barrel at 44. Maybe this is fancy grade kerosene. I did look at that NYSERDA site but I don't understand it. How is kero used in NY? Are they delivering by truck or it is available at pumps? What is the difference between heating fuel oil, colored/untaxed diesel and kerosene?


----------



## Multihullgirl

Pendragon35 said:


> I never quite got the point of ovens on most boats; who bakes/roasts in them? We also have a grill for cooking burgers/fish/grilled veggies.


I do...









But, that said, you can bake on the grill:Stove Top Baking


----------



## MastUndSchotbruch

abarth said:


> Fair enough. I saw Homedepot with 1g jugs at 11, Lowes 5g barrel at 44. Maybe this is fancy grade kerosene. I did look at that NYSERDA site but I don't understand it. How is kero used in NY? Are they delivering by truck or it is available at pumps? What is the difference between heating fuel oil, colored/untaxed diesel and kerosene?


I buy my kerosene at a gas station here (in Maryland). Just show up with a 5 gallon jug and fill'er up. it has been years, though, that I bought some, this stuff goes a loooong way (for a mainly-weekend-sailor), and it lasts forever.

I think heating oil, diesel and kero are very similar chemically. Perhaps there is a bit more lubricant in diesel than in kerosene? Dunno.


----------



## Minnesail

Pendragon35 said:


> I never quite got the point of ovens on most boats; who bakes/roasts in them?


Off topic, but...

No space for an oven in my little boat, but when we've chartered my wife has made good use of the oven on board. We have little pans designed for a toaster-style oven that work great. Fresh cupcakes, mmm! Deliver some to the people anchored near you!

We have found that the ovens cook a bit unevenly, but in other threads people have talked about using baking stones to even out the temperature. I'll have to give that a try.


----------



## newhaul

Minnesail said:


> Off topic, but...
> 
> No space for an oven in my little boat, but when we've chartered my wife has made good use of the oven on board. We have little pans designed for a toaster-style oven that work great. Fresh cupcakes, mmm! Deliver some to the people anchored near you!
> 
> We have found that the ovens cook a bit unevenly, but in other threads people have talked about using baking stones to even out the temperature. I'll have to give that a try.


Also off topic but here's an oven that works good on a stove top Coleman Portable Camp Oven - Walmart.com


----------



## Minnesail

newhaul said:


> Also off topic but here's an oven that works good on a stove top Coleman Portable Camp Oven - Walmart.com


Does that work? I have a similar one, except about forty years old, that got passed down from my parents. I've never tried it out because frankly it just doesn't look like it'd work that well... I guess I'll have to give it a try.


----------



## newhaul

Actually yes they do work fairly well just need to keep an eye on temp and keep burner adjusted to maintain temp you want


----------



## Leocat66

Wow, just saw a quart of Coleman Kerosene at Wal Mart for $5.68. Hope that is not a trend.


----------



## newhaul

Leocat66 said:


> Wow, just saw a quart of Coleman Kerosene at Wal Mart for $5.68. Hope that is not a trend.


Paying for the Coleman name heck I found a gallon of Coleman gasoline for multi fuel stoves for 15 bucks a gallon ( didn't buy it ) check prices at your local feed store closer to 3.5 a gallon I bet


----------



## Puddin'_Tain

newhaul said:


> Paying for the Coleman name heck I found a gallon of Coleman gasoline for multi fuel stoves for 15 bucks a gallon ( didn't buy it ) check prices at your local feed store closer to 3.5 a gallon I bet


I doubt that you'll find good quality naphtha for much less than Coleman brand fuel (Coleman fuel is mostly naphtha); certainly not for anything approaching $3.50/gal. In any case, I wouldn't use such a stove on a boat.


----------



## newhaul

Puddin'_Tain said:


> I doubt that you'll find good quality naphtha for much less than Coleman brand fuel (Coleman fuel is mostly naphtha); certainly not for anything approaching $3.50/gal. In any case, I wouldn't use such a stove on a boat.


No it really was unleaded gasoline not naphtha aka white gas and the post I was quoting and referring to was for Coleman brand kerosene
And BTW I use a Coleman powerhouse dual fuel stove when on the hook on my boat


----------



## JonEisberg

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> Yeah, your price for kerosene is *way* off, by about a factor of three. Where did you get the $11.- per gallon?? The current price is below $4.-
> Average Kerosene Prices - NYSERDA
> 
> This is not surprising since it is essentially like diesel but with lower taxes. You list diesel at $4.- (I believe it is a bit lower by now) and kerosene is slightly below that.
> 
> ...
> 
> I buy my kerosene at a gas station here (in Maryland). Just show up with a 5 gallon jug and fill'er up. it has been years, though, that I bought some, this stuff goes a loooong way (for a mainly-weekend-sailor), and it lasts forever.


Hmmm, sounds like it's been more than a few years since you purchased Kerosene... 

Here in NJ, gas prices are considerably lower than in MD... Kero is becoming increasingly hard to find, but there are 2 stations in my local area that still pump it... Their current price of Regular gas is $2.13 and 2.19, and are selling K-1 @ $5.99 and 6.50, respectively...

There has been NO reduction whatsoever in the price of Kero connected to the falling gas prices, at least as far as I can see, the prices have remained the same here as they were last winter...


----------



## hpeer

We also find few stations sell it here in Delaware. Around $5.00/gal IIRC.

P.S. went out and got some kero this pm, $3.23 /gal at the Hess in New Castle, DE.


----------



## oysterman23

hpeer said:


> We also find few stations sell it here in Delaware. Around $5.00/gal IIRC.
> 
> P.S. went out and got some kero this pm, $3.23 /gal at the Hess in New Castle, DE.


I use k-1 for heating my shop this is close to the Hess price near me.
Canned fuels at HD Lowes etc are always higher and are rarely a finer product. I use fair quantities of lacquer thinner and big box stores carry lower grades in general. Incidentally fuel terminology between the States and UK can result in dangerous confusion always check a reliable reference when traveling.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk


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## Puddin'_Tain

newhaul said:


> No it really was unleaded gasoline not naphtha aka white gas and the post I was quoting and referring to was for Coleman brand kerosene
> And BTW I use a Coleman powerhouse dual fuel stove when on the hook on my boat


I think you need to be clear as to what fuel you are discussing. You referred to "Coleman gasoline", which as far as I know doesn't exist. Coleman fuel is basically naphtha. Just about any Coleman appliance that is designed to burn Coleman fuel will also burn unleaded gasoline, but it will stink and gum up the generator and/or jets far more often (in my experience). Naphtha, whether genuine Coleman fuel or otherwise, is by far the best thing for such.

Kerosene is a whole different issue. But I usually put synthetic kerosene (e.g., Klean Heat) and/or orderless "liquid paraffin" in my kerosene camping stoves and lamps. Both are more expensive than K-1, but either will burn with far less odor.


----------



## hellosailor

Jack, technically it is still a series of explosions. From fuels that are classified as "low explosives" as opposed to "high explosives" like TNT. Case in point, diesel fuel, which is the explosive part of ANFO hyperbaric bombs, among the most powerful explosives out there. Or, the Murrow building, as you may recall.
Our engines fire a series of discrete explosions, are opposed to "burning" a continuous charge, like a turbine engine does. The explosions are slow enough that we still refer to a "flame front" during each explosion, but that "flame" is part of the normal explosive process. How fast it is, and whether it is continuous or separate events, is the criteria. 
You go let a nice mixture of gasoline, or diesel, fill up a space and set it off. Tell me that isn't an _explosion_.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coleman_fuel
Our friends at the Wiki say that Coleman fuel(s) are "a mixture of cyclohexane, nonane, octane, heptane, and pentane." while Coleman themselves, who sell one product under the name "camp fuel" and "premium" fuels (must be worth more, right?) don't say much but it is a naphtha product. Naphtha is the base stock, the largest portion, of gasoline, and is very similar to benzene, but the purity and the additive fractions and stabilizers make it arguably different from plain rubber cement thinner. Similar, but it certainly burns cleaner, in that it doesn't clog burner jets the same way as "unleaded white gas". 
It isn't "gasoline" as such, since that was a trademarked name for a particular blend designed for use in cars. In the US, our "gasoline" is concocted to have something over 87 octane these days, and Coleman fuel is about 50 octane. You'd never want to run it in a car, short of Zombie Apocalypse time.(G)


----------



## Capt Len

Makers of janitorial products have "deoderized spray base' aka less smelly kerosene (coal oil). Really good in lamps and if price is right good for stove. I bought in 45 gal barrels so no idea what a dribble would cost But hunting down a source could be what we bottom feeders do best


----------



## hpeer

Somewhere, a long time ago, I found this list of international fuel names.

Esoteric but fascinating reading. It's a wonder we don't all blow ourselves to kingdom come.

International Fuel Names


----------



## Puddin'_Tain

newhaul said:


> ...
> And BTW I use a Coleman powerhouse dual fuel stove when on the hook on my boat


I wouldn't let my insurance agent know about that, if I were you.


----------



## newhaul

Puddin'_Tain said:


> I wouldn't let my insurance agent know about that, if I were you.


Why not it is a portable cooking stove what's different to him than an installed diesel pressure stove or alcohol or portable propane cookers insurance agents don't care


----------



## hellsop

hellosailor said:


> Jack, technically it is still a series of explosions. From fuels that are classified as "low explosives" as opposed to "high explosives" like TNT. Case in point, diesel fuel, which is the explosive part of ANFO hyperbaric bombs, among the most powerful explosives out there. Or, the Murrow building, as you may recall.


Eh... sort of, but not really. The diesel is the fuel for those, but it's packed into the ammonium nitrate oxidizer, which dramatically changes the conditions. Essentially, it's not behaving like diesel-at-rest because all the stuff it needs to burn is already present. And that's what makes the colloquial definition of "explosive". Not only fast burning but everything on-hand in sufficient quantity to use up available fuel. ANFO gets all its necessary oxygen from the ammonium nitrate. Most fuels get theirs from the air when they vaporize, and the fuels vaporize when they get above certain temperatures; what temperature is needed depends on the fuel.

Alcohol needs about 60F. That's why most alcohol stoves have some means of preheating for cold weather, even if they don't stay using that preheater all the time. Gasoline's got it easy: -45F. Below that, your car probably won't start no matter how much you crank it, but keeping the whole engine block warmer than that fixes the issue. It also means gasoline's always putting off explosion-ready vapors, which is why sealed fuel systems are so important on boats with gasoline fuel. Diesel, on the other hand, it's vapor point is about 125F. Even in the tropics, it's rare that a fuel tank will get that warm, especially one with available air to supply oxygen. So explosion risk is GREATLY reduced, because all the fuel stays as a liquid, doesn't mix with oxygen, and remains only slightly more explosive than peanut butter. (Heck, mix that ammonium nitrate with peanut butter and you'd probably end up with a pretty decent rocket fuel too.)

(Oh, and using wicks gets around a lot of these limitations, by bringing very small amounts of fuel in continuous supply very very close to the source of vaporization heat, the previously vaporized burning fuel. You can make a very nice lamp out of a shotglass full of olive oil and a chunk of just about anything absorbent and vaguely flammable, like a snip of a cotton t-shirt.)


----------



## ravinracin

Way too technical for me. I was reading this thread with an interest in cooking on board. I use a small 1 burner butane stove. Works great for my overnights, etc. Butane cartridges cost $2.97 and seem to last quite a while. Repeated uses during a weekend. If I ever got a boat over 30', I think I would go with propane. Technically we are discussing best kinds of cooking methods.


----------



## travlin-easy

For the life of me, I cannot understand why anyone would want to use anything other than propane for cooking. It's safe, time tested, and does an outstanding job. Yes, like any stove, even electric, it requires some periodic maintenance, but what product doesn't? 

More than likely, your current system just needs a bit of TLC to put it in top condition again. This isn't rocket science, but if you're one of those individuals that has trouble screwing in a light bulb, then you should seriously consider some professional service tech to do the job for you. And, not all of those so called pros are really professional. I've run across enough bad ones in my lifetime to know. 

Good luck, and I hope you find a viable solution,

Gary


----------



## hpeer

Gary,
That's funny, I don't understand why pressure kero isn't more popular!

Each to his own?


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## HR28sailor

There is some very good commentary in this topic. propane\kerosene\alcohol proponents support their preferences with good arguments. each fuel type has their pros and cons. I believe each has their merits and purpose. Myself I prefer pressurized kero stoves. Tried and true safe fuel for marine use and is commonly available. although in the rare occasion in some areas where I could not find good clear kerosene, I burned mineral spirits (burns very clean), or diesel in a pinch. I have heard cooking oil can be used but have not tried it. The biurners do require regular cleaning for efficient running. parts are now more available than they once were and the 207 burner my Force 10 uses are being produced again. Safety wise I feel more comfortable using kero as in its raw form if spilt and in the rare circumstance ignited does not burn with the volatility of alcohol or propane. To be fair, you would smell a propane leak and sniffers\detector in the bilge are a good idea. 
For ease of use I must agree you cannot beat propane.


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## MastUndSchotbruch

HR28sailor said:


> There is some very good commentary in this topic. propane\kerosene\alcohol proponents support their preferences with good arguments. each fuel type has their pros and cons. I believe each has their merits and purpose. Myself I prefer pressurized kero stoves. Tried and true safe fuel for marine use and is commonly available. although in the rare occasion in some areas where I could not find good clear kerosene, I burned mineral spirits (burns very clean), or diesel in a pinch. I have heard cooking oil can be used but have not tried it. The biurners do require regular cleaning for efficient running. parts are now more available than they once were and the 207 burner my Force 10 uses are being produced again. Safety wise I feel more comfortable using kero as in its raw form if spilt and in the rare circumstance ignited does not burn with the volatility of alcohol or propane. To be fair, you would smell a propane leak and sniffers\detector in the bilge are a good idea.
> For ease of use I must agree you cannot beat propane.


Same here. My standard stove fuel is about 3/4 kero mixed with 1/4 mineral sprits. I feel that it burns just as well as pure kero but it largely obviates the need for cleaning.

All fuels smell. Kero, diesel and alcohol naturally, the gases (propane,butane, CNG) because malodorous substances have been added to detect leaks.

My main argument for kerosene is safety. Nearly all boat explosions are either due to gasoline vapor accumulation in the bilge (often during refueling), or leaks from the propane system. This is less an issue with alcohol but it can create wicked fires which can burn undetected for a while and are hard to put out. Kerosene and diesel are comparatively very safe, you can throw a lighted match into a puddle of either and they will not burn nor, obviously, explode.

Distant second/third reasons are availability (world wide), no messing with different standards for bottles, and cost.


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## newhaul

I have alcohol, propane, electric and I also have portable gasoline stoves on my boat so I use what is best for conditions the main issue I see with propane is the ease of use so easy people are lax and seem to forget to check the system and don't pay as much attention to it as they should when you have to fill tanks with liquid on your vessel you tend to be more aware of things like gaskets that are wearing out and any leaks that may develop are quickly apparent and repaired but not so much with propane (I don't check my hoses every time I fill a propane tank the tank fitting yes but hose no and I'm sure most people are the same) however I do inspect all my hoses and fittings on the boat at least monthly


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## fryewe

Thanks for this discussion. It inspired me to pull my boat's original Hillerange kerosene stove with oven out of the corner of my barn.

It had frustrated me with it's soot and leaks, so I pulled it and installed a two burner Origo unpressurized alcohol stove during a refit in 2009. I have been happy with the Origo simplicity, reliability, and cleanliness, and even though burner power is pretty low it has met my needs. I haven't needed an oven during my short duration excursions.

But all that is about to change with plans to do some extended cruising in the next few years...and since so many seem to have successfully used and been happy with their pressurized kerosene stoves, I thought I would give mine another look because i want an oven and because I already had the stove and tank and spare burners, and could avoid the expen$$$$e of a propane stove and tankage and safety systems if I could re-commission the stove and be happy with it.

The approach I have taken, so far, has been:
- I needed to get familiar with the burner construction and operation. I studied what I could find on the 'net and took a burner apart. The burners are valved four leg with an integral pricker for cleaning the burner orifice. I had six. Now I have five. I broke the one I took apart, but I figured out how it worked and what I did wrong, and ordered a set of tools and assorted parts so I could properly service the burners.
- I ordered a Butterfly #2412 stove from St. Paul Mercantile and bought a gallon of K1 kerosene.
- I tested the Butterfly stove. A remarkably good "roarer" burner and portable stove. Beautiful, hot flame. No soot. Minimal smell.
- I took the burner off the Butterfly and tested all my Hillerange Force 10 (Type 207?) silent burners. Four worked great. Beautiful blue flames with minimal yellow flame a bit away from the burner. Prickers worked well.

I am ready to reassemble the stove, test it, and reinstall it in the boat. Can't wait for the first batch of cookies from that oven.


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## hpeer

OK, I've a question for a kero guru. I have a two burner stove at home, Optimus 55 with a built in pressure tank.

I can't get the pressure pump to build pressure. Well, I can get it to work once in a blue moon, sorta. But not regularly. I replaced the o ring on the piston to no avail.

Anyone know any tricks?

The one time I did, after MUCH pumping, get it to pressure it worked fine.


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## fryewe

hpeer said:


> OK, I've a question for a kero guru. I have a two burner stove at home, Optimus 55 with a built in pressure tank.
> 
> I can't get the pressure pump to build pressure. Well, I can get it to work once in a blue moon, sorta. But not regularly. I replaced the o ring on the piston to no avail.
> 
> Anyone know any tricks?
> 
> The one time I did, after MUCH pumping, get it to pressure it worked fine.


St. Paul's Mercantile (no affiliation) offers a Shraeder valve (tire valve) adapter for a few bucks, allowing you to use a bicycle or other small pump rather than the piston pump. Just pull the piston pump and thread on the adapter. They also offer replacement piston pump parts as well as the complete pump. Check their web site.

Good luck.


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## travlin-easy

I must be a Kamikaze. I have had 17 gasoline powered boats, and all but 2 had propane stoves - never had a single incident with any of them over a 60 years of boating. And, the only two boat explosions I personally saw occurred on diesel powered boats, and both went to the bottom in minutes. Both were charter fishing boats that had recently been inspected by the USCG and licensed for greater than 20 passengers. 

Gary


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## MastUndSchotbruch

travlineasy said:


> I must be a Kamikaze. I have had 17 gasoline powered boats, and all but 2 had propane stoves - never had a single incident with any of them over a 60 years of boating. And, the only two boat explosions I personally saw occurred on diesel powered boats, and both went to the bottom in minutes. Both were charter fishing boats that had recently been inspected by the USCG and licensed for greater than 20 passengers.
> 
> Gary


Do you know what was the cause of the explosions?


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## HR28sailor

Sounds like your check valve is stuck. It is located at the bottom of the pump. take some carb cleaner and squirt some in. let it soak. should free it up. lube up your pump seal with some neats foot oil while you have it out.


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## fryewe

Just test drove my two burner Hillerange with oven.

A burner heated a pint of water from tap temp (65F) to boiling in two and a half minutes. No soot on the bottom of the pan.

The MT oven heated to 300F in five minutes, to 350F in seven minutes, at which point I reduced the flame and maintained 350F for 5 minutes, then to 400F in another three minutes after raising the heat.

I tested the stove in about an 8 knot breeze with the fuel supply through a four and a half foot temporary tubing, so I had to double heat the burners due to wind blowing the priming flame around, and I got a little bit of surging due to the long run of tubing for the fuel supply, but both will be non-issues on the boat.

The biggest PITA will be kneeling to prime and light the oven burner with the valve control below the open door. I can live with it, because I have to observe that burner operating properly before replacing shelving.

Woo-hoo!!


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## captain jack

travlineasy said:


> I must be a Kamikaze.
> 
> Gary


because you sail your boat into other boats in a suicide effort to sink them?


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## travlin-easy

One of the fishing boats had a fuel leak that ended up dripping on an exhaust manifold, which filled the engine compartment with diesel very volatile diesel fumes. The captain hit the trim tab switch, which triggered on open relay in the engine room and BOOM! Down she went.

Gary


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## MastUndSchotbruch

travlineasy said:


> One of the fishing boats had a fuel leak that ended up dripping on an exhaust manifold, which filled the engine compartment with diesel very volatile diesel fumes. The captain hit the trim tab switch, which triggered on open relay in the engine room and BOOM! Down she went.
> 
> Gary


Ouch!

Yes, even diesel will do that if dripped onto a hot exhaust.

Well, it also needs an illegal (not-ignition proofed) relay.


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## hpeer

fryewe said:


> St. Paul's Mercantile (no affiliation) offers a Shraeder valve (tire valve) adapter for a few bucks, allowing you to use a bicycle or other small pump rather than the piston pump. Just pull the piston pump and thread on the adapter. They also offer replacement piston pump parts as well as the complete pump. Check their web site.
> 
> Good luck.


IIRC the diameter of the pump on the lantern is much smaller than on the stove.

But look at the price on spare burners! Woooo hoooo!


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## hpeer

HR28sailor said:


> Sounds like your check valve is stuck. It is located at the bottom of the pump. take some carb cleaner and squirt some in. let it soak. should free it up. lube up your pump seal with some neats foot oil while you have it out.


The check valve seems to be free. It feels much more like the o ring is too loose. I tried some grease on it but that didn't seem to help at all. Bigger o rings were just too big. Many way to make the o ring swell a little?

What does the meats foot oil do and where would I get it?


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## HR28sailor

You can use light machine oil for sewing machines. Neets should be avail at any pharmacy
As far as replacing the seal, Check this site base-camp.co.uk
I got parts for my old force 10 from them. You will find schematics for your stove. just sent him an email with the part number yours is 2322 for the pump seal. he will fix you up. As a jury rig you can try a coleman stove seal cut down to fit. get a leather one. I have revitalised a 50 year old lantern seal soaking it in oil. leather is better. you can do the same thing with hole punches with raw leather if you are keen....


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## hpeer

Yes, I order from Base Camp, get 207 burner parts there. 

But this piston uses a rubber O ring. I can't see how to get a leather on the bugger. It doesn't come apart, just a groove.

I did place an order for a Schadler valve from St. Paul's Merchantile.

I was pleased to see they are selling butterfly stoves and spare burners for a very reasonable price.

A few years ago I bought a Mansulu from Base Camp as a back up, a thing of beauty.


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## HR28sailor

Yes those O rings can be a problem. looking at my Optimus pump I surmised it might be possible to jury rig one out of leather until a proper seal is obtained. Using hole punches some experimentation of course would be required. dry leather will swell with oil so a sufficient seal might be possible. Another option I thought of are O ring kits from automotive parts suppliers. they come in different sizes odds are better finding one the right size.


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## hpeer

Yup, done the automotive O ring bit, it was exactly the same size as the one I dug out. The next size up would not go in the pump tube.

So I'm kinda baffled. I thought maybe something would make the O ring swell a bit, or there was some grease that would make the seal. It did seem to work "better" (almost never) before I lubed it (never.)

I too thought of leather, but I can't see how to make one stay in place. I've made them for the pump in my boat, so I know what you mean.

My next thing to do is hit a hardware or plumbing store and see if I can find an oddball there that will work.


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## HR28sailor

Maddening isn't it? Are the o rings you have metric or SAE? Euro stove so metric may be the answer.


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## hpeer

Maddening to say the least!

I've thought of metric, but need to find a better auto store.

Unbelievably there isn't a NAPA around me, just those idiot chain stores.


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## HR28sailor

It perked my curiosity so I took a look at the spirit burner forum see if I could find any info. nothing specific but my feeling is the O ring is metric.


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## fryewe

Check out McMaster-Carr at McMaster.com. They have o-rings galore at good prices with good, prompt shipping.


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## hpeer

Damn, I shoulda thought of that!

I have an account with Grainger.

Thanks for the head kick.


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## Capt Len

Mentioned a while ago I have a Primus model 535 ;worked well when I put it in the basement 20 years ago. Offered again at $50 plus shipping..


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## hpeer

Right, I could put next to the Optimus 55 in the living room, or the Taylor bulkhead heater in the basement, but the brand new Shipmate range ( that's 1/4" too wide ), also in the basement, might get mad.

Not to mention the Wife.


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## HR28sailor

Capt Len said:


> Mentioned a while ago I have a Primus model 535 ;worked well when I put it in the basement 20 years ago. Offered again at $50 plus shipping..


you should put it on ebay, collectors love them. one sold recently for over 500.00 bucks no joke...


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## Bill-Rangatira

Capt Len said:


> Mentioned a while ago I have a Primus model 535 ;worked well when I put it in the basement 20 years ago. Offered again at $50 plus shipping..


you still have a primus? 
i am in victoria would love to get my hands on one of them


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## hpeer

The schader cap came in, butt it's too big! Got a set of metric o rings on order.


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## Capt Len

Sorry Jack, Didn't hear from you for a while and another SN'er stepped up to the plate. Len.


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## captain jack

Capt Len said:


> Sorry Jack, Didn't hear from you for a while and another SN'er stepped up to the plate. Len.


That's cool. My fault for not keeping in touch better.


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## hpeer

fryewe said:


> Check out McMaster-Carr at McMaster.com. They have o-rings galore at good prices with good, prompt shipping.


BINGO!

Got a set of metric O rings from Harbor Freight. 397 pieces for like $10 with shipping. Now what to do with the 396 unneeded spares?:laugher


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## HR28sailor

Sell 'em on evil bay for a buck a piece


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## fryewe

Made a quick turn through the Seattle Boat Show this weekend. The Wallas Nordic Dt combination stove/heater is sweet, but at about 2600 bucks I think I'm going to have to leave it on the shelf and stay with my clay pot on a burner.


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## mepowers

I have an Origo 6000 and it has worked out pretty well. It is definitely small but even use it to bake bread. Originally this boat had CNG which i would prefer over propane. However, availability is an issue. Denatured alcohol is readily available in the US at the Home Depot, Lowes, Walmart and various hardware stores in the paint supply section.


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## Maine Sail

001vetinh said:


> eh-
> Wow, 1985! And I have no memory of that movie itself. I guess it wasn't an award winner.(G) The YouRube [sic] reposter could have at least given the source credit. Thanks for looking that up.


Clean up on aisle 3!!! We have a spammer in the house.....


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## capt jgwinks

I did a propane installation in my Columbia 36 soon after I bought the boat. It wasn't that expensive at all. I suppose it could be if you bought everything at Waste Marine, but they should be your last resort. I used to work for them, quit about 15 years ago and have hardly been in a store since. I got an alarm/solenoid from Defender, custom hoses from a local industrial hose supplier, and a standard 20# barbeque tank. Less than $500 total. Granted, the steel tank wouldn't last forever in salt water, but here in the US you can swap it out at a lot of gas stations and get a fairly new, inspected one each time. I'm in fresh water so it's not an issue for me.
Propane is the most widely used cooking fuel in the world, but you may need to get adapters to mate with the local supply in some countries.


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## Pamlicotraveler

SVAuspicious said:


> Quite good. Propane is one of the most commonly used cooking fuels worldwide. That is not to say you won't have to haul your tanks some distance to get it, but you can.


Actually it's gonna be butane for your tanks in Europe and the Med. They say butane isn't as hot, but it works just fine with our Force 10 stove.


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## aloof

Depends where you are going to cruise. LPG is readily available everywhere you want to be. The more remote the place the more common it is. Alcohol, not so common. Plus you need vast amounts of alcohol to equal a single bottle of LPG. Butane camp stoves are a good way to go if there is limited, basic cooking. The entire kit can be replaced almost anywhere for cheap.


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## SVAuspicious

Pamlicotraveler said:


> Actually it's gonna be butane for your tanks in Europe and the Med. They say butane isn't as hot, but it works just fine with our Force 10 stove.


The difference in average heat content of propane and butane is about 1%. It doesn't make any difference, which is why you don't have to rejet when you "switch" between them. In some places you end up with a mix of the two anyway.

The biggest issue I have run into is cold weather performance. The boiling point of liquid butane at standard temperature and pressure (STP) is a lot higher than that of propane. That means in really cold weather you may have to bring your butane tank into a warm area for a while before you make your morning coffee. Propane will boil (the liquid will become a gas to be delivered to the cooker) at much lower temperatures.


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## hpeer

It was 2°F at the boat the other morning. The kerosene stove worked just fine.


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## 123456Wannasail654321

barefootnavigator said:


> Our little boat is getting closer and closer to resuming our cruise and I have decided to pull the propane stove. There isn't anything wrong with it other than the fact that I have never plumed it in. Basically it just acts as a gimbal for my portable butane stove that I have been using for 3.5 years.
> 
> I really like the Origo non pressurized stoves but I've been told alcohol is difficult to obtain far from home. Id like to hear from people who have been out cruising for over a year without propane and what their thoughts are.
> 
> This is NOT a propane bashing thread, I love propane but on this boat its just more trouble than its worth to get a proper set up.


 Just carry a lot of alcohol with you. like have six gallons at all times. for instance.


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