# Challenger 40..... A good foundation?



## Swift Drift (Oct 25, 2011)

Hi All,

I've been shopping boats for a little over six months and I've recently been turned on to the Challenger 40 for the following main reason:

1) Good headroom (I'm 6'4").
2) Appears to be a well built thick hand laid 1970's era fiberglass boat.
3) Significant bang for the buck. 

I've looked at more modern boats in the 34-36 foot category that have all the bells and whistles. My thought is that If I do my homework and buy an older solid boat, i can ad bells and whistles (electronics to my liking, cushion covers, dodger, etc) as I go. On the other hand, buy the 34-36 foot boat, love it for 5 years or so, and end up wanting a bigger boat with more off shore capability, higher tankage capacity, heavier displacement etc.

Going to view a cahllenger 40 this weekend (Sloop) and likely flying somewhere in the next few weeks to view another one (ketch).

My intent is to use the boat for PNW cruising over the next few years as the boat and my schedule are upgraded to accomodate extended cruising. I currently own a 1989 Macregor 26D and a Nacra 5.2 Cat.... I sail both frequently. Have had experience sailing a 40' plus boat with similar dispacement to challenger 40 in the San Juans / Sound area.

I have turned over practically every stone I can on the web trying to find info not only on Challenger Yachts, but specifically the 40. Anyone have any knowledge to bestow on me? Any suggestions for other boats that I may want to throw in the mix? (budget not to exceed 45k....30k would be nice). How about someone to talk me out of all this craziness? 

What say you??


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## sfchallenger (May 17, 2011)

I absolutely love my Challenger 40', Elizabeth, which I've had for almost a year. They are really well built boats and I'm extremely happy with how she sails (I've had her moving over 10 knots flying the #3, Main, and Mizzen). Mine is a ketch rig, which I really like, although I'd be interested to check out the sloop. I had little experience with ketch rigs before I started looking at her and read a lot about ketches and yawls in the run up to buying her. I learned that there is a lot of hatred for the rig out there, I'm glad I didn't listen to the haters; I like it for the following reasons:

It's easy to reduce sail - over 30 knots of breeze I can fly my mizzen and headsail only and still move along just fine - and I'd argue with more control than a reefed main. 

Splitting the sail plan makes the boat more trimmable for women or those small of stature. 

Three sails looks cooler than two. 

Mizzen tricks - you can use the mizzen for a lot of fun tricks your sloop friends don't know about. 

That's my ketches are great bit, as to the Challenger, I think she has a lot to offer. A few things to watch out for - 

The original mainmast step on some of these boats was a welded bridge that spans the bottom of the hull where the mast passes through the cabin sole. I saw photos of someones Challenger down in Central America that had badly corroded - this is in the foreward head so figure it might have had to do with use of the shower. Mine is stepped into a large (approx 12"x12") block that is glassed in to the hull - prefferential I think, don't know of it is original, I suspect it was done when the boat's standing rigging was redone. That would be something to look at if it is accessible. 

A few other beefs I have - The wiring harness on mine left some things to be desired - it would have been nice if they'd followed colour-coding convention when they ran wires - also they were quite a few splices below the cabin sole - less than desirable. 

The keel is really deep, under the engine, and is almost impossible to clear of standing water - let alone clean. I think they made Challengers in a full keel model as well that might be better for this (mine is a fin keel and has a six and a half foot draft).

Mine had some issues with secondary bonding - some tabbing had from the hull at the connections to the bulkheads. Not sure why - I fixed all that with epoxy after I bought the boat. Something to look at. 

And the good:

Roomy, as you noted, nice headroom, solid layup (I think the hull is an inch think!), mine has a Perkins 4-107, which is a great little engine, generally well thought out systems, nice interior woodwork, etc.

I did what you're doing when I bought mine and got some nice testimonials from folks on here - one bloke said he'd take his anywhere - now that I've had mine for a year I'd agree with that too. 

Cheers, 
hugh


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## Swift Drift (Oct 25, 2011)

Hey Hugh! Thanks for the info! I actually have read your posts about your challenger and had composed a PM to you prior to starting this thread but wasn't allowed to send due to my low post count!!!
I appreciate the feedback (especially the issues to watch for). Both boats I'm looking into are full keel. As for the sloop vs. ketch conversation, I think I'd be okay with either one and will choose the boat that is in the best overall condition. I am tempted to get into the sloop vs. ketch game, but at the end of the day, I think it would be alot of stress over nothing and there are more important items to evaluate.

I look forward to comparing notes with you in the futrure.....especially if I end up as an owner.

-Tyler


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## sfchallenger (May 17, 2011)

Hi Tyler,

You can reach me at [email protected] if you have any specific questions, I'm happy to help out a fellow potential Challenger owner. Best of luck in your search, hope you find the right boat for you!

Cheers,
h


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## Swift Drift (Oct 25, 2011)

Sweet! Just sent you an e-mail.


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## SuzySailor (Feb 7, 2007)

Swift, SFChallenger has given you lots of specifics, but just to chime in-- we sold our Challenger 40 ketch a year ago. She was a solidly built boat with lots of light in the interior, and a TON of storage space. She sailed very well. An excellent boat with a little-known name.


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## Swift Drift (Oct 25, 2011)

Thanks Suzy! I just walked away from a full keeled ketch in Californina last week..... had too many things going on. I was sold on that set up and am now only able to locate a sloop rigged fin keel challenger 40. Was your ketch full or fin keeled?


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## SuzySailor (Feb 7, 2007)

She is full keeled.


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## Captaindad (Mar 7, 2012)

hi there, just to echo some things already said; she's a great sailing boat with a nice gentle motion, the head room is a huge plus (i'm just over 6ft), the engine access is great, the interior build quality is very well thought out, and the galley is highly livable. i have some original documentation including the owners' manual if you'd like to to see it. we've owned ours (family of 4) for about a year and love her more every time we take her out. she handles the sf bay like a pro and can keep up with much younger boats with no problem. she's a sloop rigged fin keeled craft that is capable of 35deg off weather when properly trimmed and can make 7-9 kts comfortably. i wouldn't hesitate to make a passage in her at all.


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## sfchallenger (May 17, 2011)

Hey Captaindad, 

I'd be interested in having a look at your documents, I have a Challenger 40' ketch rig. I'm in the sf bay too, so perhaps we could meet somewhere and I could photocopy if you don't have them in electronic format. Ping me here or e-mail me at hfield at matpelbuilders dot com if that could work. 

Cheers,
h


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## Planeman1960 (Jan 29, 2013)

So, I am coming to the party late. But, I am the "new" owner of the Challenger 40 Ketch Susy sold in 2009. After more than 3 years of owning and living aboard her I would agree with the comments above. A very solid cruising boat that I would hesitate to take off shore.

We have installed a number of upgrades so far and we have a few more to go before we leave but almost all of the work has been updating older systems and not fixing broken stuff.

Have a great sail!

Tim and Tina
SV Alethiea


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Planeman1960 said:


> So, I am coming to the party late. But, I am the "new" owner of the Challenger 40 Ketch Susy sold in 2009. After more than 3 years of owning and living aboard her I would agree with the comments above. A very solid cruising boat that I *would* hesitate to take off shore.
> 
> We have installed a number of upgrades so far and we have a few more to go before we leave but almost all of the work has been updating older systems and not fixing broken stuff.
> 
> Have a great sail! Tim and Tina SV Alethiea


Can we assume the highlight is a typo and you meant *wouldn't?* Makes a big difference.


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## Planeman1960 (Jan 29, 2013)

My Bad... and yes it was a type-O and we will be headed off shore full time in a couple years. Hoping for a couple years in the med, then the caribean sea then the pacific run.

Thanks


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## Jaxxiam (Sep 10, 2013)

It's been over a year, any updates! Another Challenger has come to the market that has spiked my interest.

Anybody still here?


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## saltyzephyr (Mar 14, 2017)

Totally late to this conversation but we have purchased a Challenger 40 a few months ago and have finally started working on her. She needed some help but she will be well worth it.

We just purchased a Challenger 40 a couple months ago and have just started to fix her up. Wasn't used for over 6 years and had a few problems but nothing that cant be handled. Structurally she is sound and no blisters and engine in good shape and what not. 

But I would love to have any documentation you all have as ours is a Sloop as well. Its a 1972, and I am gutting all the wood out of vberth and rebuilding it as it had termites in that area, have to change flooring too, about 45% of the floor I will be redoing. Have gone through the whole boat to check for any other wood damage and that seems to be the stent of those little bugs. Over all it is wood work and standing rig along with restepping the mast. I would love to see how your mast is stepped, this one is all corroded and I will be glassing it in once done. I am also redoing most if not all the electrical wires, and will be leaving some extras up in the mast when I do it as well for future upgrades. Thanks for any info you may have.

Cheers...


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

saltyzephyr said:


> Totally late to this conversation but we have purchased a Challenger 40 a few months ago and have finally started working on her. She needed some help but she will be well worth it.
> 
> We just purchased a Challenger 40 a couple months ago and have just started to fix her up. Wasn't used for over 6 years and had a few problems but nothing that cant be handled. Structurally she is sound and no blisters and engine in good shape and what not.
> 
> ...


Polyestermites?


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## saltyzephyr (Mar 14, 2017)

No, regular termites is all. Just in the plywood.


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## SVGreatPerhaps (May 12, 2020)

Hello!
Anyone still there? 
My husband and I bought a 1972 Challenger 38 about two and a half years ago now. I'm glad to have found this forum and hope there are still some folks out there still taking these old boats on adventures.

My husband and I are first-time boat owners...actually neither of us had ever been on a boat in our lives. We bought this one because cosmetically she's beautiful inside, had the head room for my 6+ ft. husband, and is known for its solid core.

While under sail about 13 miles off the southern CA coast, the mast step sheared on us, dropping the mast to the keel. Thankfully no damage to the deck, mast, or hull. I highly encourage anyone who hasn't gotten eyes on their mast step to do so before your next sail.

As someone mentioned above, we are also in the process of completely re-wiring everything. We have lots of rotten wood (v berth) and under all the port lights that we will be attempting to tackle this summer. S

Mostly she needs some upgrades, like new LED mast fixtures, a (mostly) cosmetic shower overhaul (the head platform is rotting), constant varnishing (I'll pay that price for our gorgeous boat!), and a saloon upholstery overhaul. Our main concern right now are squishy decks. Were they made with plywood cores?

We have a Perkins 4-108 and in the past year, we rebuilt the transmission and the engine back to the rear main seal. The rear main seal was leaking oil into our incredibly deep bilge, causing us to soooo many bilge pump woes. Seems like we have an undersized prop; at 2000 RPM's we can't get over 4.3 knots. 

I'd love to hear about everyone's Challengers, successes, woes, specs, etc. to help us with our projects and to know what's normal! I heard there's a manual floating around and I'd love to it. The only thing I can find online is the sketch from sailboat data.

Please reach out at ekhenderson14 at Gmail dot com. For those who posted their contact info, I'll be reaching out to you to see if you can share any materials. Take care!


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## treeByter (Nov 19, 2020)

Also very late to the forum. I bought a Challenger 38 Sloop version this past June. Like all here, Even though there is a ton of work to do to her, I was hooked as soon as I walked down into the salon. Just lovely boats. I have yet to sail her but I love the damn thing. Like many, I am in desperate need of documentation. Also I need pictures of the head as mine was altered in a very poor manner and I'd like to restore it properly. 

I am also based in Northern California, east of San Fran, but my boat is currently down south until this coming spring. I look forward to talking with many here.


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## Jenja44 (Aug 28, 2021)

Hey all- late to the forum too, but wish I saw this thread years ago when we first bought our boat. It's great to have a community of people with Challenger 40 boats. There aren't many of us!

We have a 1973 Challenger 40 sloop with a roller fuller on the inner forestay- so not technically a cutter. We just sailed her from California to Rhode Island via the Panama Canal, and loved her. She is a very comfortable boat to live on, and was very strong in the seas.

We did a 3-year refit on our boat as we purchased it from someone who just left her at the dock for 3 years. The reason we bought her was because her deck and hull were solid, the engine was basically new with 300 hours on it, we liked the layout with lots of space and light, and the keel figuration was what we were looking for. The deck was not squishy at all as someone mentioned above, and it's still super solid. It's a 3/4 length cutaway keel with attached rudder which we really liked not to have to worry about the rudder falling off while world cruising.

We did everything on our boat to make her ready for bluewater cruising like new rigging, new sails, built a new rudder, made new removable headliners with recessed lighting as the previous owner just had stapled up vinyl and push lights. We re-plumbed and re-wired everything. Pulled the mast, stripped it of paint and inspected it, no pitting or cracks, but we did have to weld in new compression posts where the stays attach. We also added an arch for solar and our surfboards  We painted deck and hull, stripped varnish and revarnished, varnished the interior, sanded and finished cabin floors. We replaced the fuel tank. We got rid of under hull blisters, brought the hull down to fiberglass, and then laid a sheet of glass with epoxy and then laid 5 coats of barrier coat on it + bottom. I'm sure I'm missing stuff, but basically we did so many things to our boat.

That being said, in terms of things that are Challenger specific, I can't think of anything that has been necessarily a design flaw of the build. Most of what we did was from lack of maintenance, and just upgrades due to age of the boat. We had to fix bottom blisters because the previous owner put a ****ty layer of gel coat on in Mexico.

We bought our boat as a bluewater heavy cruiser, so expected her not to be quick. She, in general, averaged 5.5 - 6 knots for us, sailing and/or motoring with our 50 hp Kubota. She doesn't point great, we figured the very closest we get is 47 degrees apparent. We went upwind from Panama to Jamaica and we held her at about 50 degrees apparent off, and she charged. She doesn't lay on her side, so we were probably only heeled over like 15 degrees, and she just tracked like that for 5 days. We decided we actually liked her upwind as she needs about 15 apparent to get moving nicely (much easier upwind). She's totally solid when it's really breezy, in fact, I think it's where she shines the most. 
We went mostly downwind from California through Mexico, and on light days, we would be frustrated as she really needed more. We often flew the spinnaker for light days but as a short-handed crew ( 2 of us) that gets exhausting so we realized she would do well with a big drifter. We actually found one second hand in Mexico and were so excited about it, turns out, the cord was too thick for our roller furler. But it would have been perfect!

These boats are definitely blue-water cruisers, hand-built for the rugged waters off California, they have over an 1" thick of fiberglass on hull, 1/2" glass with 1/2" thick marine plywood deck, solid bulkheads and built in floors. We planned to take our boat sailing around the world, then COVID along with a couple other unexpected twists changed our plans to sail it back to Rhode Island where I am from. Sadly we're selling her now due to unforeseen circumstances, but we can still be a resource for any info on these boats! Since we literally did everything, we know our boat very well and might be of help to others. Reach out to us at [email protected] with any questions if you're an owner with questions or looking to buy one.


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## FrenchPython (Jun 24, 2021)

Hi,

Old thread yes, hope some of you are still alive..

I am looking at a ketch rigged "Challenger 40" need some clarification..
when looking up on sailboatdata.com the only models are either the 38 (39.9LOA) and the 41 (41LOA). which of these is considered the 40 ? ive been assuming the 38 but would like to confirm.

Also, 
Wondering what would be a good offer price.
So I was wondering what you paid for yours, and the general condition it was in. 

Thanks


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

FrenchPython said:


> Hi,
> 
> Old thread yes, hope some of you are still alive..
> 
> ...


I would guess the 41 or the Acapulco 40 - both are grossly under-rigged - barely steadying sails. North Sea motorsailer territory. Both are ancient full keel designs as well.

Personally I'd look elsewhere - very old boats with extremely questionable sailing performance


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## FrenchPython (Jun 24, 2021)

SloopJonB said:


> I would guess the 41 or the Acapulco 40 - both are grossly under-rigged - barely steadying sails. North Sea motorsailer territory. Both are ancient full keel designs as well.
> 
> Personally I'd look elsewhere - very old boats with extremely questionable sailing performance


How much of that under rigged can be fixed with better sailplan ?
eg furled spinnaker, 150% genoa, staysails, etc


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

FrenchPython said:


> How much of that under rigged can be fixed with better sailplan ?
> eg furled spinnaker, 150% genoa, staysails, etc


None of it can be fixed by just buying sails. In theory, if the boat had enough stability and money were no object, the sailing ability could be helped with a taller sloop rig (new mast) and a more efficient sails, but it is highly unlikely that there is enough stability. But even if someone chose to upgrade the rig, any gain in performance would be severely limited by the hull form. 

Jeff


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## FrenchPython (Jun 24, 2021)

Jeff_H said:


> None of it can be fixed by just buying sails. In theory, if the boat had enough stability and money were no object, the sailing ability could be helped with a taller sloop rig (new mast) and a more efficient sails, but it is highly unlikely that there is enough stability. But even if someone chose to upgrade the rig, any gain in performance would be severely limited by the hull form.
> 
> Jeff


Hey Jeff, can you explain to me why switching from 100% to a 155% genoa wont help with an underpowered rig ?

According to my calculations going to 155% changes SA/Dis from 13.1 to 16.1

Thanks


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Its not that going from a 100% jib to a 150% genoa won't help a little. It will, but not much.

The reason this is so is because the driving forces on a sail come from the leading edge of the sail (until the boat's course is very deep reaching, and even then the majority of drive still comes from the forward portion of the sail.) That is the reason that SA/D calculations only uses the 100% foretriangle rather than the size of the biggest genoa. While the leading edge of the sail adds drive, the leech of the sail mainly adds drag. As a sail becomes a larger percentage genoa, there are minimal gains in drive, and whatever those minimal gains occur are in part diminished by this added drag. That is the reason that if you look at modern cruising rigs, they rarely use more than a 110-115% genoa. On the other hand adding luff length to the mainsail and jib help performance enormously on a per square foot of sail area in contrast to making a large percentage genoa, which does relatively little.

And then there is the problems related to constructing large proportion genoas. In order to assume a proper flying shape in lighter winds (under 10 knots) the fabric of the sail needs to be light enough to lift the weight of all of that excess fabric. But unless the sail cloth is a very high tech- low stretch material, as the wind picks up that light weight material will stretch, and become more powerful, just when you want to depower (flatten) the sail to reduce weather helm and heeling. Once that happens, you will prematurely need furl 10-15% of the sail area not because of its sail area, but because of its fullness. 10-15% is about as far as you can roll a sail and still maintain a proper sail shape. Beyond that the sail becomes fuller defeating much of the gains from furling the sail. But since this is a light weight sail cloth for the low wind range, the sail will continue to stretch and power up. At some point, you would then need to do a sail change or sail heeled over excessively and going slow. 

Jeff


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## FrenchPython (Jun 24, 2021)

Jeff_H said:


> Its not that going from a 100% jib to a 150% genoa won't help a little. It will, but not much.
> 
> The reason this is so is because the driving forces on a sail come from the leading edge of the sail (until the boat's course is very deep reaching, and even then the majority of drive still comes from the forward portion of the sail.) That is the reason that SA/D calculations only uses the 100% foretriangle rather than the size of the biggest genoa. While the leading edge of the sail adds drive, the leech of the sail mainly adds drag. As a sail becomes a larger percentage genoa, there are minimal gains in drive, and whatever those minimal gains occur are in part diminished by this added drag. That is the reason that if you look at modern cruising rigs, they rarely use more than a 110-115% genoa. On the other hand adding luff length to the mainsail and jib help performance enormously on a per square foot of sail area in contrast to making a large percentage genoa, which does relatively little.
> 
> ...


Excellent explanation.
If I understand correctly, a longer leeched headsail, like type 1 genoas will mostly only help for beam reach and down.
And if you are looking for upwind performance, the luff is what is needed.

With that logic, would a more cost effective way to get windward performance be a long luff stay sail ?

Thanks


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

FrenchPython said:


> Excellent explanation.
> If I understand correctly, a longer leeched headsail, like type 1 genoas will mostly only help for beam reach and down.
> And if you are looking for upwind performance, the luff is what is needed.
> 
> ...


I think what Jeff was getting at, is that you would need to have a taller rig to increase the luff length of the sail. 
There could be a lot of good reasons to consider this boat, just not sailing performance.


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## FrenchPython (Jun 24, 2021)

Barquito said:


> I think what Jeff was getting at, is that you would need to have a taller rig to increase the luff length of the sail.
> There could be a lot of good reasons to consider this boat, just not sailing performance.


Agreed, a heavy, under powered, full keel ketch is not exactly going to perform well upwind. 
I was just wondering, if in the future I wanted to improve upwind performance on such a vessel, what the most cost effective way to do it would be. 
Changing the rig from ketch to sloop is the best thing you can do but also the most expensive and time investment whereas hanking up a second foresail (or a slutter rig) is relatively inexpensive.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

BITD many boat designs intended for offshore came with 2 rig designs - standard and a "snug rig" option for primarily blue water use.

I never understood the logic of that - most offshore sailors will tell you that 95% or more of cruising is done in winds of 15 knots or less.

Handling huge genoas is a continuous pain while a good reefing setup lets you shrink a rig in seconds.

I owned an offshore specialized boat with an Sa/D under 16 and I would never have one that low again.

And the boats under discussion have Sa/D's under 12.

That is sail assisted MoBo territory - 9 is steadying sail territory.


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

The most cost effective way to improve the upwind sailing performance of this boat would be to get a different boat.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

FrenchPython said:


> Agreed, a heavy, under powered, full keel ketch is not exactly going to perform well upwind.
> I was just wondering, if in the future I wanted to improve upwind performance on such a vessel, what the most cost effective way to do it would be.
> Changing the rig from ketch to sloop is the best thing you can do but also the most expensive and time investment whereas hanking up a second foresail (or a slutter rig) is relatively inexpensive.


Yes, adding a staysail would add a little more drive, but it would have minimal impact on upwind performance. What happens with each new sail that you add is that there is an interference between the sails that make each of the sails less efficient. This is especially true upwind where the added forestaysail closes down the slot between the headstay jib and the mainsail. Adding the forestaysail would help more when reaching with the apparent wind forward of the beam, but once the apparent wind was abeam. it would put bad air onto the headstay jib and at that point cancel out any gains. 

This is less of an issue with a cutter (or modern shorthanded race boats) because the mast is typically located further aft in the boat and the the headstay tacked out on a bowsprit creating a larger lost and less overlap. 

Also like a big genoa, the forestaysail will have a fabric weight problem, meaning that it needs to be flat enough and made from a heavy enough fabric to function in higher winds, yet be light enough and powered up enough to fly in light air.

Additionally, while actually adding a taller mast and making a sloop out of the boat would end up with a much more efficient rig, it is unlikely that the boat has the stability to carry that taller rig. I will also note that adding a forestay is not all that easy since you would need to beef up the boat's structure and the mast to create a structural location that can withstand the loads of the sail. Its a big ticket item to do well. 

As myself and others are trying to say, and as Barquito said so well, "The most cost effective way to improve the upwind sailing performance of this boat would be to buy a different boat. " 

Jeff


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

It looks like you are trying to buy an anchor. That would suggest that you were successful in finding a suitable boat for your purposes. What did you end up buying? 

Jeff


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## FrenchPython (Jun 24, 2021)

Jeff_H said:


> It looks like you are trying to buy an anchor. That would suggest that you were successful in finding a suitable boat for your purposes. What did you end up buying?
> 
> Jeff


Nothing gets past you does it ? 😂
I've indeed just purchased a 1973 ketch rigged Challenger 38 in St Augustine. 
Due to weather myself and 2 crew-members mainly motored through the ICW all the way to FLL inlet, where the conditions were favorable and sailed the remaining leg to Key Biscayne. 
We took 2-4hour shifts for a total of 58 hours and ~350+ miles.
She is now safely moored at Dinner Key Marina


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Congratulations! Obviously, that is a very different boat than you started out looking for.

Ah, Dinner Key...I have very find memories of restoring on my Folkboat and living aboard her at Dinner Key in 1973. I had a job parking cars at the Mutiny Club at the Sailboat Bay Hotel in Dinner Key at night and working at Expressway Yachts during the day. The pictures below are from that time. (You can see the old seaplane terminal, turned Miami City Hall in the background of the picture taken just before launch day.)

Jeff


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## FrenchPython (Jun 24, 2021)

Jeff_H said:


> Congratulations! Obviously, that is a very different boat than you started out looking for.
> 
> Ah, Dinner Key...I have very find memories of restoring on my Folkboat and living aboard her at Dinner Key in 1973. I had a job parking cars at the Mutiny Club at the Sailboat Bay Hotel in Dinner Key at night and working at Expressway Yachts during the day. The pictures below are from that time. (You can see the old seaplane terminal, turned Miami City Hall in the background of the picture taken just before launch day.)
> 
> ...


Small world !
How groovy !
Let me know if you are ever in town and wanna grab a beer.
Took these pics on our arrival Sunday night. 
Dropped anchor right outside No Name Harbor right around sunset.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Ah, Sunset at No Name Cove. Brings back a lot of fond memories. 

Jeff


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## Ilaman333 (Sep 29, 2021)

SloopJonB said:


> BITD many boat designs intended for offshore came with 2 rig designs - standard and a "snug rig" option for primarily blue water use.
> 
> I never understood the logic of that - most offshore sailors will tell you that 95% or more of cruising is done in winds of 15 knots or less.
> 
> ...


Reach out to me please I have a Coronado 45 would like you input [email protected] thanks


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

PM me with any questions you have.


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## m.swofford (1 mo ago)

sfchallenger said:


> I absolutely love my Challenger 40', Elizabeth, which I've had for almost a year. They are really well built boats and I'm extremely happy with how she sails (I've had her moving over 10 knots flying the #3, Main, and Mizzen). Mine is a ketch rig, which I really like, although I'd be interested to check out the sloop. I had little experience with ketch rigs before I started looking at her and read a lot about ketches and yawls in the run up to buying her. I learned that there is a lot of hatred for the rig out there, I'm glad I didn't listen to the haters; I like it for the following reasons: It's easy to reduce sail - over 30 knots of breeze I can fly my mizzen and headsail only and still move along just fine - and I'd argue with more control than a reefed main. Splitting the sail plan makes the boat more trimmable for women or those small of stature. Three sails looks cooler than two. Mizzen tricks - you can use the mizzen for a lot of fun tricks your sloop friends don't know about. That's my ketches are great bit, as to the Challenger, I think she has a lot to offer. A few things to watch out for - The original mainmast step on some of these boats was a welded bridge that spans the bottom of the hull where the mast passes through the cabin sole. I saw photos of someones Challenger down in Central America that had badly corroded - this is in the foreward head so figure it might have had to do with use of the shower. Mine is stepped into a large (approx 12"x12") block that is glassed in to the hull - prefferential I think, don't know of it is original, I suspect it was done when the boat's standing rigging was redone. That would be something to look at if it is accessible. A few other beefs I have - The wiring harness on mine left some things to be desired - it would have been nice if they'd followed colour-coding convention when they ran wires - also they were quite a few splices below the cabin sole - less than desirable. The keel is really deep, under the engine, and is almost impossible to clear of standing water - let alone clean. I think they made Challengers in a full keel model as well that might be better for this (mine is a fin keel and has a six and a half foot draft). Mine had some issues with secondary bonding - some tabbing had from the hull at the connections to the bulkheads. Not sure why - I fixed all that with epoxy after I bought the boat. Something to look at. And the good: Roomy, as you noted, nice headroom, solid layup (I think the hull is an inch think!), mine has a Perkins 4-107, which is a great little engine, generally well thought out systems, nice interior woodwork, etc. I did what you're doing when I bought mine and got some nice testimonials from folks on here - one bloke said he'd take his anywhere - now that I've had mine for a year I'd agree with that too. Cheers, hugh


 If your Elizabeth has blue topsides then it is likely that I may be the previous owner. It underwent a repaint and complete re-rigging (and other upgrades) for three months at the KKMI yards in Richmond CA around 2002. You may reach me at [email protected]. Mark


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