# Brand New to sailing



## PghSteve (Jul 18, 2021)

Hi,
I'm brand new to sailing. I've had 6 or 7 small (14' - 23') motorboats for fishing/skiing, etc... but never been on a sailboat. My wife did take a sailing course in college, but hasn't been on a boat since and insists she'll be starting over from scratch (though I question that... my wife's brain is a steel trap). 
I'm probably 5-10 years away from retirement (which will put me in my low/mid 50's and still fairly physically capable), and I have developed the interest in looking at becoming a recreational ocean sailer in retirement. Honestly... I've gotten the interest in trying to spend half the year on a sailboat in the Caribbean or Gulf of Mexico or off coast of Panama/Costa Rica...something like that - but my wife assures me that's not going to happen while married to her. I realize that dream puts me into the large class of "gunners" as I've seen MarkOfSeaLife put it...but hopefully I'll rise above that.
So... to begin my journey of preparing myself for some version of this I need to get learning. I'm looking for a small boat that I can sail on my local lake alone (or with a kid/wife), and I'm going to continue watching videos and doing some reading to learn. Hopefully I'll find someone at our local sailing club that maybe I can pay to go out with me a few times and give me some lessons.
My first question would be -- any recommendations for a total newbie like myself on a good book to read to gain knowledge of the mechanics and physics of sailing and to learn the general layout and gear, etc. of boat types?
Second... and I know I'm getting ahead of myself here and shouldn't rush into anything (aka - take the time to make a good decision).... there is an '89 J/22 for sale near me for 6k that I'm thinking of picking up. I know that's not the longterm boat I want, but my thought is start small to learn for a year or two, then move into a 30 footer for a few years, then be ready for a 40-50' boat when bigger water time rolls around in retirement. Would a J22 be a good learner boat. At 6K, if I sink it the world doesn't end 

Thanks!


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## PhilCarlson (Dec 14, 2013)

Welcome aboard! There are many good 'starting-out' sailing books. I started with Sailing for Dummies. It remains a favorite. Leaning the basics on a small boat is a solid plan. Everything works exactly the same way, the difference is scale (and forces). On a small boat you will feel the effects of your actions more quickly. The wife might come around... Or she might discover the hazards associated with issuing ultimatums. Best of luck!


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

The small J boats are race boats and in my opinion they make poor learning or daysailing boats. While the J22 is much more comfortable than a J24, neither would be as comfortable as a Sonar or Rhodes 19 or a string of other daysailers generally available for a lot less than $6k.

Some recommended reading are AIRBORNE, FLIRTING WITH MERMAIDS, and CHAPMANS and watch this YT channel


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Must have book which covers all bases and every nook and cranny:









Royce's Sailing Illustrated: The Best of All Sailing Worlds: Royce, Patrick M.: 9780911284003: Amazon.com: Books


Royce's Sailing Illustrated: The Best of All Sailing Worlds [Royce, Patrick M.] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Royce's Sailing Illustrated: The Best of All Sailing Worlds



www.amazon.com


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## PghSteve (Jul 18, 2021)

sailingfool said:


> The small J boats are race boats and in my opinion they make poor learning or daysailing boats. While the J22 is much more comfortable than a J24, neither would be as comfortable as a Sonar or Rhodes 19 or a string of other daysailers generally available for a lot less than $6k.
> 
> Some recommended reading are AIRBORNE, FLIRTING WITH MERMAIDS, and CHAPMANS and watch this YT channel


Good point on the J22 as a racer... I did see people using it for that, but seemed that others were also daysailing in them. We definitely want to start with comfort (as can be had in a small boat) and ease of learning. Another thing for us to consider though would be having something that we at least have the ability to take our kids with us on. Our kids are 7 & 9. At this point, primarily I want to get my wife and I on the water learning. The kids are a secondary thought for now (they become a primary thought once we know what we're doing and are upgrading to a real family boat for weeklong trips), but it does make it easier to get more time on the water if the kids can go with us and have fun too.


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## PghSteve (Jul 18, 2021)

__





Search Sailboats for Sale






www.sailboatlistings.com





This little thing is only 5 or 6 hours away from me... it's smaller than I was thinking, but big enough the kids would be able to play in the bottom and have fun white we were sailing, and looks like it would be easy for us to haul and launch at our regular ramps (?). New sails and decent outboard. Honestly... I'm kindof shocked that sailboats are as inexpensive as they seem to be. This is 3900, being new to this and only basing off of what we pay for pontoons and fishing boats, etc... I would have guessed something like this to cost 21-15k. I'm glad I'm wrong...but this seems like a lot of stuff (boat, sails, motor, trailer) for not much money. 
Would this be a good starter... Or for my situation would bigger be better? I'm seeing there's no shortage of boats out there if I'm willing to travel a day to pick them up.


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## PhilCarlson (Dec 14, 2013)

That Catalina is a good candidate. It has space for the kids to be out of the way and out of the weather. 

I personally advocate for the first boat being a learning lab. Buy it based on what you want to learn from it. You could go bigger with an inboard engine, refrigeration, propane stove, lights, fans, charger, solar.... You would learn all of those systems (which you will need to do) usually at the expense of sailing time. The bigger boat costs more to maintain, store, repair...


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

The J22 is a racer, but I think is is pretty well behaved. I would suggest something even smaller. Maybe keep the expenses down by trailer sailing for the first year or two. You will be able to sell a trailer sailboat for about what you got it for. Makes it almost free.


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

If you are lake sailing, the Catalina is probably a good choice. I say "probably" because the fact is, you won't know what you like/need until you get out there. Do you need a cabin? A head? A sink? Are you going to sail for an hour or so, or want to cruise for a couple of days or more? Or is a boat that sails nicely and is easy to trailer and set up most important? Buy something relatively cheap, get out there, and find out.

Like most of us, your goals will likely change as you gain experience. I had hoped that my wife and kids would love sailing so much they would want to cruise, and I would be "forced" to upgrade from my 23 foot trailer sailer. Never happened. I eventually bought a bigger boat anyway, but I am under no illusions that the Admiral will go much further than the next marina for an overnight. Maybe your wife will feel differently after getting some boat time, but I wouldn't count on it.


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## PghSteve (Jul 18, 2021)

mstern said:


> If you are lake sailing, the Catalina is probably a good choice. I say "probably" because the fact is, you won't know what you like/need until you get out there. Do you need a cabin? A head? A sink? Are you going to sail for an hour or so, or want to cruise for a couple of days or more? Or is a boat that sails nicely and is easy to trailer and set up most important? Buy something relatively cheap, get out there, and find out.
> 
> Like most of us, your goals will likely change as you gain experience. I had hoped that my wife and kids would love sailing so much they would want to cruise, and I would be "forced" to upgrade from my 23 foot trailer sailer. Never happened. I eventually bought a bigger boat anyway, but I am under no illusions that the Admiral will go much further than the next marina for an overnight. Maybe your wife will feel differently after getting some boat time, but I wouldn't count on it.


Yep... that's right where I'm starting at, the "hope" phase. Honestly, my intent is I'll do it with or without her. I'm fortunate that we get along great, but also are extremely easy going with what the other wants to do. If I retire and want to do something for two months and she doesn't want to do it - she won't have an issue with me setting out on my own. But I hope that's not how it goes. She is starting off with the belief that she'll want nothing to do with longer term cruising, but she does like boats and being on small water (gets seasick on big water). She used to be adventurous and hopefully if things go well she'll get on board (figuratively & literally). I need to make sure she likes our little starter boat and go from there.


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## Dreadpiratkevin (Jan 23, 2021)

PghSteve said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This looks like a good choice for your situation. We sailed a Siren 17 when our kids were those ages and it worked very well for us- the kids can go below and feel safe and out of the way, or lie down if they get tired. It's a comfortable enough boat you won't feel beat up by it after a day on the water and versatile enough to do lots of different things. Take it to many different lakes and explore, or just motor out and anchor and let the kids swim on a hot day (very popular with our kids) Plus upkeep is vastly lower on a trailer boat. I found that the things I learned sailing our 17' translated well into our larger boats when the time came. Personally I think it's easier to learn on a small boat like this and then move up then jump into a larger more complicated boat. With a decent comfort level and low initial investment you've got a good chance of enticing your wife into joining you, especially if she sees the kids having a ball on it with you.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

Look around and see if you can find a Boston Whaler Harpoon 5.2, I sailed one for a number of years and consider it the best tailorable daysailer by far. With an 8 foot beam it has a lot of form stability and could comfortably carry two couples and a half dozen kids.


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## contrarian (Sep 14, 2011)

The problem with small boats is, well they're small. The problem with big boats is , well they're B I G 
The great thing about sailing on someone else's boat is that it is _*Their Problem.*_ If I had a more pleasant demeanor maybe I could have stuck with sailing on other peoples boats. My abrasive personality was fine when crewing on boats that were racing...... ie, a bunch of yelling followed by beer drinking and bragging but for more refined yachting I just don't fit in. If memory serves me right.... questionable, J22 and J24 were both very wet and J22 would round up pretty easily when driven hard. 
The down side to a decent sized trailer sailor is the time and effort it takes to set up to go sailing. The fact that you are even considering sailing is indicative of a mental health issue. For example, I can rationalize the 10 hours that I spend working on the boat for every hour of sailing because well, I don't have to raise the mast to go sailing.


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## 22catcapri (Feb 21, 2017)

PghSteve said:


> Hi,
> I'm brand new to sailing. I've had 6 or 7 small (14' - 23') motorboats for fishing/skiing, etc... but never been on a sailboat. My wife did take a sailing course in college, but hasn't been on a boat since and insists she'll be starting over from scratch (though I question that... my wife's brain is a steel trap).
> I'm probably 5-10 years away from retirement (which will put me in my low/mid 50's and still fairly physically capable), and I have developed the interest in looking at becoming a recreational ocean sailer in retirement. Honestly... I've gotten the interest in trying to spend half the year on a sailboat in the Caribbean or Gulf of Mexico or off coast of Panama/Costa Rica...something like that - but my wife assures me that's not going to happen while married to her. I realize that dream puts me into the large class of "gunners" as I've seen MarkOfSeaLife put it...but hopefully I'll rise above that.
> So... to begin my journey of preparing myself for some version of this I need to get learning. I'm looking for a small boat that I can sail on my local lake alone (or with a kid/wife), and I'm going to continue watching videos and doing some reading to learn. Hopefully I'll find someone at our local sailing club that maybe I can pay to go out with me a few times and give me some lessons.
> ...


Welcome to sailing. The only thing I would add is that you and your wife should take part in the learning experience together. The the Admiral and I did it was through a sailing school. (We had sailed many years ago.) We bought a Catalina, sailed for a year on the local lake, and then we took more instruction on a 43 footer in FL to get a bareboat cert.

If buying, a Catalina 22 is as good as anything for your purposes. Parts are easily obtainable, and resale should be easy after you've outgrown her.


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## PghSteve (Jul 18, 2021)

22catcapri said:


> Welcome to sailing. The only thing I would add is that you and your wife should take part in the learning experience together. The the Admiral and I did it was through a sailing school. (We had sailed many years ago.) We bought a Catalina, sailed for a year on the local lake, and then we took more instruction on a 43 footer in FL to get a bareboat cert.
> 
> If buying, a Catalina 22 is as good as anything for your purposes. Parts are easily obtainable, and resale should be easy after you've outgrown her.


Thx... I've seen quite a few Catalina 22's for sale. Seems to be an easy boat to find. Are they fairly easy to trailer and launch. My local marina told me they had slips available for up to a 21'... I could see if they have someplace I could squeeze a 22 but I may have to trailer for a while.


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## 22catcapri (Feb 21, 2017)

PghSteve said:


> Thx... I've seen quite a few Catalina 22's for sale. Seems to be an easy boat to find. Are they fairly easy to trailer and launch. My local marina told me they had slips available for up to a 21'... I could see if they have someplace I could squeeze a 22 but I may have to trailer for a while.


Ummm, the 21' thing...Is that all they have available currently, or always?


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## PghSteve (Jul 18, 2021)

22catcapri said:


> Ummm, the 21' thing...Is that all they have available currently, or always?


currently... I called asking about slip availability. For longer, I have to get on a waiting list. Not a big deal, I'd just have to trailer launch until a slip became available. I'm actually going to go test sail a Cat22 at this marina tomorrow morning that already has a dock slip paid for for the year, which would alleviate the problem. I found it listed and just contacted the owner after your post above. It's cheap and comes with a poor quality trailer (would need trailer work, which I can do) and the paid dock slip. It would need bottom paint. He says it's in good condition, but I think it would at a minimum need cosmetic work. It's an 81 for 2750. He says it is a Gen 1 and has the "iron swing keel"...not sure exactly what that means to me. I'd rather spend a little extra money and get a really well cared for boat and trailer, but this may be too convenient to pass up, already being in the water at my small little local lake and all....


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

There are three different models of the C22: the swing keel (far and away the most popular), the fin keel, and the wing shoal keel. The swing keel is made of iron and is cranked in and out of the stubby keel with a crank mechanism in the cabin. There are a set number of cranks so you know if it's all the way up or all the way down. The swing keel is what makes the boat eminently trailerable. The other models sail better, but you really sacrifice the ease of trailering. And AFAIK, all of the swing keels were made of iron. For a boat of this age, make sure you can see the whole keel; iron keels need to be maintained. I'm betting that an iron keel that old will look rough. Don't look for perfection. Best case, the iron has been blasted clean and was immediately epoxied and covered with bottom paint. 

The C22 is I think the most popular production sailboat ever, with good reason. The boat sails reasonably well, is easy to maintain, and provides a stable, forgiving platform. And if you get one of the pop-top models, you get standing headroom!


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## Deluge (Jun 7, 2021)

Hello,

I just bought my first sailboat this year, a C&C 24 1983. Previously I had sailed on dinghies and done courses in my teens. For the past few years, I had been renting a daysailer every second weekend or so while I lived in Switzerland. I might have been slightly more experienced than your wife at the time of buying.

Before buying, I took a dinghy course with my wife (a good refresher for me, a great introduction for her) and I would heartily recommend it. It helps build good teamwork skills on a very responsive (and fun!) little vessel. You will see that when you upgrade to your own boat, everything is more or less the same in terms of rigging and sailing.

A bit more boat than you are looking for, but the C&C 24 is really wonderful and fits on a trailer (but launching it from a trailer is quite the ordeal as I learned). If you can find the dock space for it I would more than recommend it as a starter boat.


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## PghSteve (Jul 18, 2021)

mstern said:


> There are three different models of the C22: the swing keel (far and away the most popular), the fin keel, and the wing shoal keel. The swing keel is made of iron and is cranked in and out of the stubby keel with a crank mechanism in the cabin. There are a set number of cranks so you know if it's all the way up or all the way down. The swing keel is what makes the boat eminently trailerable. The other models sail better, but you really sacrifice the ease of trailering. And AFAIK, all of the swing keels were made of iron. For a boat of this age, make sure you can see the whole keel; iron keels need to be maintained. I'm betting that an iron keel that old will look rough. Don't look for perfection. Best case, the iron has been blasted clean and was immediately epoxied and covered with bottom paint.
> 
> The C22 is I think the most popular production sailboat ever, with good reason. The boat sails reasonably well, is easy to maintain, and provides a stable, forgiving platform. And if you get one of the pop-top models, you get standing headroom!


Good advice on seeing the whole keel. I know he doesn't have the trailer there (its at his house), so I'll just tell him I can't commit to buying until he pulls it out of the water. Iron is easy as far as making pretty (I have a painting company and we can blast and epoxy it with no problem)... I assume the thing I'm looking for is some kind of dents or damage? Or is it literally just an aesthetic issue I'm looking for?


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## justified (Jun 14, 2007)

Welcome. I would stay in the 16-22ft range to start off in and learn in. There are plenty of small boats like that around for well under 6k. Look around the lake and see what others are sailing, also its a great idea if there is a sailing club in your area to go down and just start talking . If they do racing everyone is looking for crew and you should be able to get on a boat and LEARN. You will learn what you don't know and then some. You will also get a feel for what you might want in a boat. Have fun sailing is addictive!


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

You don't want an iron keel that's mostly rust. I've never seen a C22 centerboard that didn't have at least some corrosion/rust. You are going to be seeing a piece of iron that's been immersed in water and exposed to the air for 40 years. The keel on this 1981 boat will probably have a rough, uneven surface with dings and dents, even when covered with bottom paint. That's ok; l've never seen a really fair swing keel on a C22. What you want to make sure of is that the keel is all there (no big chunks missing), and that it is not rotting away under the paint. Tap it with a plastic or rubber hammer; if it's rotten, you will feel it. You may even knock off a chunk. Not good. And you not only want to see the condition of the keel, you need to see the condition of the cable pendent and the fitting that attaches it to the swing keel, and that the crank mechanism works. Remember, the only way you know if the cable is attached to the keel and that the crank works is if you actually see the board swivel into the hull from below.


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## PghSteve (Jul 18, 2021)

mstern said:


> see the board swivel into the hull from below


I don't know what that means.... won't I know if it works by whether or not the keel moves up when cranked?


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

PghSteve said:


> I don't know what that means.... won't I know if it works by whether or not the keel moves up when cranked?


Take a look at the drawing on this webpage. It shows what the board looks like up and down. The swing keel pivots on a pin at it's front, and swings up into a slot in the bottom of the hull. A wire pendent runs from the trailing edge of the swing keel up into the hull to a crank mechanism in the cabin.

Because you can't see how much pendent line is out or on the crank, the only way you know if the board is up or down is if you put the full number of turns on the crank (up or down). And my recollection is that the crank feels the same whether it's taking the line up or down or not working at all. So if the pendent is broken or the board is jammed, you won't know unless you actually witness the board moving.



https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/catalina-22


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## PghSteve (Jul 18, 2021)

mstern said:


> Take a look at the drawing on this webpage. It shows what the board looks like up and down. The swing keel pivots on a pin at it's front, and swings up into a slot in the bottom of the hull. A wire pendent runs from the trailing edge of the swing keel up into the hull to a crank mechanism in the cabin.
> 
> Because you can't see how much pendent line is out or on the crank, the only way you know if the board is up or down is if you put the full number of turns on the crank (up or down). And my recollection is that the crank feels the same whether it's taking the line up or down or not working at all. So if the pendent is broken or the board is jammed, you won't know unless you actually witness the board moving.
> 
> ...


Thanks, that makes sense. Is the "pendant" just an anchor of some kind at the end of the cable that is visible on the bottom trailing end of the keel? I'll know it when I see it? If the cable itself goes bad over time, are they replaceable? 
I asked him to bring the trailer tomorrow and he said he wouldn't have time, but if we agree on purchase we just won't exchange money until we pull the boat out so I can inspect underneath. He told me that he "guarantees the keel will be totally rusty and there is no damage to the bottom of the boat". I'll verify conditions before purchasing.
Lastly... when I do get the boat out of the water, will the crank still raise and lower the keel or does that only work while in water? I don't know the trailer setup, so not sure if it allows room for dropping the keel or not.


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

I don't remember the actual configuration of how the pendent is attached to the swing keel. And yes, you can replace the cable, but I'm no expert in how to do so. The cranking mechanism works in or out of the water. Here's a link to the C22 owner's manual. There are also Facebook groups and owner's forums for the C22 where you can get some real expert advice.



https://www.glenmoresailboats.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/catalina_22_manual.pdf


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## 22catcapri (Feb 21, 2017)

PghSteve said:


> currently... I called asking about slip availability. For longer, I have to get on a waiting list. Not a big deal, I'd just have to trailer launch until a slip became available. I'm actually going to go test sail a Cat22 at this marina tomorrow morning that already has a dock slip paid for for the year, which would alleviate the problem. I found it listed and just contacted the owner after your post above. It's cheap and comes with a poor quality trailer (would need trailer work, which I can do) and the paid dock slip. It would need bottom paint. He says it's in good condition, but I think it would at a minimum need cosmetic work. It's an 81 for 2750. He says it is a Gen 1 and has the "iron swing keel"...not sure exactly what that means to me. I'd rather spend a little extra money and get a really well cared for boat and trailer, but this may be too convenient to pass up, already being in the water at my small little local lake and all....


Cool. If you would be lucky enough to get the boat AND slip, that presents some advantages. You're always rigged. Sailing is more spontaneous.That is nice because then you can sail only on days of your choosing. You can take the fam out on great sailing days and skip the gnarly ones. Keeps it positive. You can use the marina facilities. You can sail an hour and park it. And, some days you'll just go to the boat and have lunch!


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## PghSteve (Jul 18, 2021)

I went on my first sail today. It was awesome...truly enjoyed it. The boat was fairly rough, but for 2750 I somewhat expected that. It sailed well, the sails were old but in what appears to me to be good condition. It badly needs painted. The wood was dry and rough. the top had some light spiderweb cracking of the fiberglass. The owner has never tested any of the lights. I know the mast light won't work bc I could see the wire was disconnected at the bottom of the mast... the rest I have no clue. He's told me the trailer is rough and will need bearings, tires, possibly some welding of the front stopper block post (?), new electric.... sounds like its the basis of a trailer but needs much work. The Mariner 9.9 ran but was definitely rough.
Bottom line, I could sail it in the daytimes and probably sell it and get most of my money back in the spring. I'm attracted to the low price and dock slip it comes with. It would be something to practice in. But... I'm also hesitant to put myself in a position to do that much work or have to change boats so soon.


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## MoonBeamEstate (Jan 1, 2021)

PghSteve said:


> Hi,
> I'm brand new to sailing. I've had 6 or 7 small (14' - 23') motorboats for fishing/skiing, etc... but never been on a sailboat. My wife did take a sailing course in college, but hasn't been on a boat since and insists she'll be starting over from scratch (though I question that... my wife's brain is a steel trap).
> I'm probably 5-10 years away from retirement (which will put me in my low/mid 50's and still fairly physically capable), and I have developed the interest in looking at becoming a recreational ocean sailer in retirement. Honestly... I've gotten the interest in trying to spend half the year on a sailboat in the Caribbean or Gulf of Mexico or off coast of Panama/Costa Rica...something like that - but my wife assures me that's not going to happen while married to her. I realize that dream puts me into the large class of "gunners" as I've seen MarkOfSeaLife put it...but hopefully I'll rise above that.
> So... to begin my journey of preparing myself for some version of this I need to get learning. I'm looking for a small boat that I can sail on my local lake alone (or with a kid/wife), and I'm going to continue watching videos and doing some reading to learn. Hopefully I'll find someone at our local sailing club that maybe I can pay to go out with me a few times and give me some lessons.
> ...


Sounds like you have a good plan. Welcome, there are plenty of viewpoints here from one end of the spectrum to the other. Have fun!


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

PghSteve said:


> I went on my first sail today. It was awesome...truly enjoyed it. The boat was fairly rough, but for 2750 I somewhat expected that. It sailed well, the sails were old but in what appears to me to be good condition. It badly needs painted. The wood was dry and rough. the top had some light spiderweb cracking of the fiberglass. The owner has never tested any of the lights. I know the mast light won't work bc I could see the wire was disconnected at the bottom of the mast... the rest I have no clue. He's told me the trailer is rough and will need bearings, tires, possibly some welding of the front stopper block post (?), new electric.... sounds like its the basis of a trailer but needs much work. The Mariner 9.9 ran but was definitely rough.
> Bottom line, I could sail it in the daytimes and probably sell it and get most of my money back in the spring. I'm attracted to the low price and dock slip it comes with. It would be something to practice in. But... I'm also hesitant to put myself in a position to do that much work or have to change boats so soon.


You may not want to get a different boat in the spring. One of the "joys" of boat ownership is the maintenance. Every boat needs it. You may find that you just don't care that much about the teak, and you'd rather spend your time sailing. When I bought my first big boy boat (an Oday 23), the teak was completely unfinished and a bit rough. I resolved to do a better job than the PO and make it shine. But when it came down to it, I sailed that boat as is for many years before I decided to tackle the teak. I just couldn't justify spending my valuable boat time doing cosmetic jobs rather than sailing. Same issue with the nav lights. Some of them worked, but most didn't. Turns out that I really never sailed at night anyway (still don't), so it was a non-issue. I eventually tackled the lights project more as a fun project than a necessity.

I'd be more concerned about the trailer. If he's telling you it needs that much work, it may very well need more.

And when you say the boat needs painting, what are you referring to? Is it the hull/deck itself (i.e., fading/failing gel coat or previously painted), or is it the teak or what?


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## SV Moondog (Jul 20, 2021)

yep, any money you spend to upgrade the boat you can probably kiss goodbye when it comes time to sell it. You'll hear the phrase: the best boat upgrades are those done by the previous owner and from a monetary standpoint it's very true. The J22 is a very popular boat because you need one if you're going to enter one of the many racing regattas. But we're not talking about the America's Cup here. You could easily learn the basics of sailing on a boat like this but the larger boat you'll probably end up with (35' to 40') will be much more stable in ocean crossings - it'll also cost more to maintain, but hey, I doubt you'll get your wife doing any overnighters on a 22' boat. She's going to want a decent head and galley but this dream takes root. For now , lake sailing is kind of tricky in that the wind can be extremely variable (more learning experience) The upside is that fresh water is easier on the boat than salt water. Learn as much as you can on this puppy while spending the least amount possible and sell it when you're ready to upgrade. The big mistake is over investing in a boat you don't intend to keep.

Ps. As long as you keep it on the lake, you won't need any lights as it'll all be day sailing.


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## PghSteve (Jul 18, 2021)

mstern said:


> You may not want to get a different boat in the spring. One of the "joys" of boat ownership is the maintenance. Every boat needs it. You may find that you just don't care that much about the teak, and you'd rather spend your time sailing. When I bought my first big boy boat (an Oday 23), the teak was completely unfinished and a bit rough. I resolved to do a better job than the PO and make it shine. But when it came down to it, I sailed that boat as is for many years before I decided to tackle the teak. I just couldn't justify spending my valuable boat time doing cosmetic jobs rather than sailing. Same issue with the nav lights. Some of them worked, but most didn't. Turns out that I really never sailed at night anyway (still don't), so it was a non-issue. I eventually tackled the lights project more as a fun project than a necessity.
> 
> I'd be more concerned about the trailer. If he's telling you it needs that much work, it may very well need more.
> 
> And when you say the boat needs painting, what are you referring to? Is it the hull/deck itself (i.e., fading/failing gel coat or previously painted), or is it the teak or what?


By painting I mean pretty much everything.... the teak, which is a low concern, but moreso the hull is just faded and ugly and I'm sure the bottom hasn't been painted in years. The top is pretty good...but there are a couple spots with spiderweb cracking (the second pic shows one of a few similar spots on the seats). I know the keel will need blast cleaned and epoxied. When I asked him about condition he just said "I'm sure it's rusty as hell". I'd like to make the boat look prettier (if I buy it)... there's something to be said for pride of ownership... but my bigger hangup is the electric. We may not sail at night, but my son and I will spend the night on the boat if we have it.

I think my choice at this point is basically down to this '81 in need of a good bit of sprucing up for 2750, or to find a boat someone else has taken better care of for 4000-4500 or so. I like that Cat 22 as a boat, so I'll get this or something very similar... just a matter of which.


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## PghSteve (Jul 18, 2021)

SV Moondog said:


> yep, any money you spend to upgrade the boat you can probably kiss goodbye when it comes time to sell it. You'll hear the phrase: the best boat upgrades are those done by the previous owner and from a monetary standpoint it's very true. The J22 is a very popular boat because you need one if you're going to enter one of the many racing regattas. But we're not talking about the America's Cup here. You could easily learn the basics of sailing on a boat like this but the larger boat you'll probably end up with (35' to 40') will be much more stable in ocean crossings - it'll also cost more to maintain, but hey, I doubt you'll get your wife doing any overnighters on a 22' boat. She's going to want a decent head and galley but this dream takes root. For now , lake sailing is kind of tricky in that the wind can be extremely variable (more learning experience) The upside is that fresh water is easier on the boat than salt water. Learn as much as you can on this puppy while spending the least amount possible and sell it when you're ready to upgrade. The big mistake is over investing in a boat you don't intend to keep.
> 
> Ps. As long as you keep it on the lake, you won't need any lights as it'll all be day sailing.


I think in general that makes a lot of sense. As stated above, I will need the lights regardless...but the rest of the point is probably right on.


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## 22catcapri (Feb 21, 2017)

PghSteve said:


> I went on my first sail today. It was awesome...truly enjoyed it. The boat was fairly rough, but for 2750 I somewhat expected that. It sailed well, the sails were old but in what appears to me to be good condition. It badly needs painted. The wood was dry and rough. the top had some light spiderweb cracking of the fiberglass. The owner has never tested any of the lights. I know the mast light won't work bc I could see the wire was disconnected at the bottom of the mast... the rest I have no clue. He's told me the trailer is rough and will need bearings, tires, possibly some welding of the front stopper block post (?), new electric.... sounds like its the basis of a trailer but needs much work. The Mariner 9.9 ran but was definitely rough.
> Bottom line, I could sail it in the daytimes and probably sell it and get most of my money back in the spring. I'm attracted to the low price and dock slip it comes with. It would be something to practice in. But... I'm also hesitant to put myself in a position to do that much work or have to change boats so soon.


Imagine that evevrytime you wanted to go sailing, you had to rig a boat, stand in line at the launch ramp, launch, go park the truck, get everyone to the restrooms,and then you finally sail. If Mother Nature cooperates. Then at the end of a good day on the water, you get to do all that stuff in reverse. It's tedious even writing about it. That is the value of having a slip. If needs be, you could buy the status quo. And at some later point, sell the Catalina and get another boat. For me (old guy) , the slip is the most valuable part of this transaction!


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

PghSteve said:


> By painting I mean pretty much everything.... the teak, which is a low concern, but moreso the hull is just faded and ugly and I'm sure the bottom hasn't been painted in years. The top is pretty good...but there are a couple spots with spiderweb cracking (the second pic shows one of a few similar spots on the seats). I know the keel will need blast cleaned and epoxied. When I asked him about condition he just said "I'm sure it's rusty as hell". I'd like to make the boat look prettier (if I buy it)... there's something to be said for pride of ownership... but my bigger hangup is the electric. We may not sail at night, but my son and I will spend the night on the boat if we have it.
> 
> I think my choice at this point is basically down to this '81 in need of a good bit of sprucing up for 2750, or to find a boat someone else has taken better care of for 4000-4500 or so. I like that Cat 22 as a boat, so I'll get this or something very similar... just a matter of which.
> 
> ...


Unless you have experience and the proper equipment, you aren't going to paint the deck or hull. It is a very labor intensive job, and in my humble and correct opinion, should be left to professionals. It will cost way more than the purchase price to have that boat painted. Most of the time, faded gel coat can be restored, at least to some degree. I've seen boats that look worse than that come out looking almost factory new. The equipment and material to do so is pretty inexpensive; the primary cost is time. A high quality, variable speed buffer, extremely fine sandpaper, a spray bottle (for wet sanding) some pads, compounding, polishing and waxing material, and Bob's your uncle. You can probably wet sand, compound, polish and wax a C22 with about 12 hours of solid work. You may not be able to lift your arms above your shoulders for about a week afterwards, but it can be done.

And spider cracks in gel coat are in and of themselves not a big deal. They are cosmetic. However, the reason for the spider cracks could be insidious; they could be an indication of a sharp blow or strain that has caused damage beneath the deck. Or, they could be the result of water intrusion into the core material of the deck; the saturated core then freezes during the winter, expanding and cracking the deck above.

As for painting the bottom: all boats need bottom paint. Unless the existing paint is in such bad shape it won't allow you to paint over it, you can just keep slathering on new coats of ablative over it. It may look bad; there may be large areas that aren't even close to fair. So long as you aren't racing, it won't make a difference to you. If you are only paying $2750 for the boat, you aren't going to pay someone to blast the bottom clean. And sanding off the existing paint yourself is a very messy, possibly dangerous job.

This is an inexpensive boat. If it has no deck leaks or big soft spots, the sails are serviceable and the engine works, and comes with a trailer, then $2750 sounds like a decent price, warts and all.


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## SV Moondog (Jul 20, 2021)

Spot on. The OP will do a lot more sailing if the boats already in the water and ready to go. How much could a slip on a lake cost? Around here, people buy boats they don't even want just to get the slip. I think the OP will like the J22 once he gets it figured out. It'll be a bit twitchy at first but should be a hoot to sail even if he's not racing.


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## contrarian (Sep 14, 2011)

mstern said:


> in my humble and correct opinion


Isn't this an oxymoron?


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## PghSteve (Jul 18, 2021)

22catcapri said:


> Imagine that evevrytime you wanted to go sailing, you had to rig a boat, stand in line at the launch ramp, launch, go park the truck, get everyone to the restrooms,and then you finally sail. If Mother Nature cooperates. Then at the end of a good day on the water, you get to do all that stuff in reverse. It's tedious even writing about it. That is the value of having a slip. If needs be, you could buy the status quo. And at some later point, sell the Catalina and get another boat. For me (old guy) , the slip is the most valuable part of this transaction!


very good point...


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

contrarian said:


> Isn't this an oxymoron?


you say that like it's a bad thing...


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## contrarian (Sep 14, 2011)

mstern said:


> you say that like it's a bad thing...


Isn't a "Bad Oxymoron" an oxymoron?
This could go on indefinitely .....................................................................


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

contrarian said:


> Isn't a "Bad Oxymoron" an oxymoron?
> This could go on indefinitely .....................................................................


I agree. I don't have time to do this and eat my jumbo shrimp.


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## PghSteve (Jul 18, 2021)

Update... for those who have contributed to my decision making... I'm meeting the guy to buy my new-to-me 1981 Catalina 22 tomorrow for a whopping 2500.00. Realistically, I probably won't do much fixing up... it works as well as I need it to, and should give me what I need to learn until it's time to upgrade. Thanks to all for the insights.


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