# What would you take to Bermuda?



## brak (Jan 5, 2007)

If you had to be on a budget (no specific definition, but $100K and more is not an option), limited to 32-36' size range (for minimal comfort vs. slip cost) but not otherwise constrained, what boat would you chose for an ocean crossing, say Newport to Bermuda?


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## snider (Jun 26, 2006)

*Psc 34*

Pacific Seacraft 34


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## brak (Jan 5, 2007)

snider said:


> Pacific Seacraft 34


Oh, you are breaking my heart here I love this boat but it routinely commands prices well upward of 100K. PS 31 is a bit cheaper, but they are pretty tight - though perhaps that should be on my list.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Tayana37's...if you like the PS...you should like these and they are routinely under 100k selling price...probably Perry's 2nd most famous design ofter the Valiant...lots on yachtworld.com
http://newimages.yachtworld.com/1/5/0/1/5/1501579_1.jpg?1161068400000

Cape Dory might be another good boat to look at.

Both of the above are heavy displacement boats...I'm sure someone will be along from the Tartan contingent shortly! <g>


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## brak (Jan 5, 2007)

camaraderie said:


> Tayana37's...if you like the PS...you should like these and they are routinely under 100k selling price...probably Perry's 2nd most famous design ofter the Valiant...lots on yachtworld.com
> http://newimages.yachtworld.com/1/5/0/1/5/1501579_1.jpg?1161068400000
> 
> Cape Dory might be another good boat to look at.
> ...


What is your opinion on larger Cape Dories? I've seen the 27(?) and those are built like a rock (that still floats  ) but the bigger ones seemed to be more like modern plastic, from my cursory look at least. What models of Cape Dory would you consider?

Some Tartans look nice too. Too bad most are fully cored. If someone shows me one that isn't - I'll buy them a beer, honest


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

The Cape Dory 36 would make a great passagemaker. I don't know too many boats that are less "plastic" except maybe the Tayana and Westsail. 
Here's one near Providence:
http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...rrency=USD&access=Public&listing_id=1709&url=

Bayfield36 might also be a boat to look at if you like the "clipper bow" traditional look. I know the smaller ones are pretty well built and assume the same on the 36.

Oh..oh....I can see an incoming scud from a Tartan 34 on my radar screen!! Duck and cover!! <g>


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## brak (Jan 5, 2007)

camaraderie said:


> Oh..oh....I can see an incoming scud from a Tartan 34 on my radar screen!! Duck and cover!! <g>


Hehe I ain't afeard of'em. I'd love to hear some owner experiences regarding Tartans and their hull construction. After owning a few (smaller) boats and dealing extensively with various fiberglass issues I just seen too many things go wrong with wood (especially soft balsa) inserted into laminate. But I am trying to keep an open mind and would be very interested in actual experience with those boats.


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## catamount (Sep 8, 2002)

The Cape Dory 36 is a good boat; we sailed my Dad's to Newfoundland and back, and I would certainly consider sailing it to Bermuda.

However, for myself I prefer a boat with better performance characteristics (i.e., "not my father's oldsmobile"), and would look for something like a C&C 35, a Peterson 34, or even a J35. In fact I own a Peterson 34, and (once I'm done fixing it up) would definitely consider sailing it to Bermuda.


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## brak (Jan 5, 2007)

catamount said:


> The Cape Dory 36 is a good boat; we sailed my Dad's to Newfoundland and back, and I would certainly consider sailing it to Bermuda (FWIW, the boat is currently for sale).
> 
> However, for myself I prefer a boat with better performance characteristics (i.e., "not my father's oldsmobile"), and would look for something like a C&C 35, a Peterson 34, or even a J35. In fact I own a Peterson 34, and (once I'm done fixing it up) would definitely consider sailing it to Bermuda.


Thanks for the reply  I've seen your pages before and read them with a lot of interest  I remember making a note of your boat too - its an excellent choice, though a little les "cruisy" than I'd like but very much within reason for me. Without giving out any private info - whats the price range on these things? I don't suppose too many come on the market.


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## catamount (Sep 8, 2002)

GREYHAWK was definitely a customized version of the Peterson 34 really set up for racing. Most of them (the production boats) have somewhat more "cruisy" cockpits and interiors than mine. They do occaisionally show up on the market, generally listed for between $25K to $35K. I bought mine for substantially less than that, but it had not been well marketed (fortunately for me!).

A search of Yachtworld shows four Peterson 34's right now, BUT only 2 of those were actually production boats built by Composite Technologies/Island Yachts (the boats in Illinois and San Diego). 

The boat in Alameda is an Offshore One Design 34, designed by Doug Peterson in 1978 as a racing class and built by Jeremy Rodgers (aka Contessa Yachts) in Lymington UK. The boat in Redondo Beach appears to be a custom one-off racer (and has been on the market for a long time).

There are several different models of C&C 35, spanning many years, and their prices have a wider range. Mark I's seem also list for between $25K to $35K. J35's tend to be more expensive (can still find them well under $100K though), but you might occaisionally find a beat racer for under $40K. Cape Dory 36's have prices similar to J35s, generally from $60K to $90K (or more).

For any of these boats, expect to spend more money beyond the purchase price (in my case, a lot more!) on re-fitting and out-fitting for offshore sailing.


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## brak (Jan 5, 2007)

catamount said:


> For any of these boats, expect to spend more money beyond the purchase price (in my case, a lot more!) on re-fitting and out-fitting for offshore sailing.


That goes without saying  That is why I'd like to keep my purchase budget down as much as possible (preferably under 20K) - I know from experience that every boat I had required a lot of sweat equity and cash, and total cost went WELL beyond initial outlay. I'd just like to put those efforts towards something that will go further than my local daysailing area 

I am not a huge fan of cored hulls - as I mentioned before. The C&C 35 you mention - do you know how that was constructed? I know some C&Cs are solid and some aren't.


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## catamount (Sep 8, 2002)

brak said:


> I am not a huge fan of cored hulls - as I mentioned before. The C&C 35 you mention - do you know how that was constructed? I know some C&Cs are solid and some aren't.


I'm not a fan of cored hulls either (even though I put the J35 on my list).

It's my understanding that the C&C 35 Mark I's, which were built in the early 1970's, have solid hulls. They are reputed to be boats with nice "well-rounded" sailing qualities, definitely worth considering.

Given your 20K target, keep in mind that asking prices and selling prices are two different things -- boats with an asking price of $30K may well sell for $20K.

Given your low price target, some other boats that you might look for include the Halsey Herreshoff designed Bristol 34 built in the late 1960's/early 1970's, or even perhaps the Bill Tripp designed Galaxy 32, one of the first production fiberglass sailboats (also built as the Paceship 32). My father-in-law owns a 1958 Galaxy 32 and it is a boat that, after a thorough refit, I would consider sailing to Bermuda. I do however find the interior a bit cramped (e.g. it does not have a stand-up galley; you work the galley while sitting on the aft end of the settees).

Regards,

Tim


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## Goodnewsboy (Nov 4, 2006)

Check out a Seawind II.

Here's a couple in RI:
http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...allied&slim=quick&rid=100&rid=101&searchtype=
http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...rrency=USD&access=Public&listing_id=2545&url=

A little pricey for your budget, but they are out there in your range.


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## brak (Jan 5, 2007)

Goodnewsboy said:


> Check out a Seawind II.
> 
> Here's a couple in RI:
> http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...allied&slim=quick&rid=100&rid=101&searchtype=
> ...


I shouldn't have said "20K"  That was just an example. I am definitely ready to pay more if I see that the total necessary work will not be 3 times that price 

Thanks for the links - these will go on the list too!


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## Gary M (May 9, 2006)

A couple of other Canadain built boats that are very nice would be the Niagara 31 or 35 and the CS33 or 36. you can pick these up on the Great Lakes in almost show room condition. These boats like the fresh water and a short season. They would range $55 to $80K.
The Niagara 35 was designed for offshore passages and the construction and layout suit it. The others are very solid good sailing boats. 

I read an online article about a CS36 that sailed from the Baja to Hawaii accompanied by a number of typical "blue water" boats such as Valiants. According to the article the CS was the driest, best handling vessel of the group in a mainly uphill windy trip.
Gary


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

brak said:


> Hehe I ain't afeard of'em. I'd love to hear some owner experiences regarding Tartans and their hull construction.


You could scan post or post a questions on the Tartan Owners Site Welcome to the Tartan Owners website or the Tartan 37 Forum Tartan 37 Sailing Association.

I'm not going to get a discussion started about cored or not cored hulls on this website!


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## catamount (Sep 8, 2002)

OK, I don't know what's up between Cam and the Tartan crowd, but I'll fill in my thoughts on cored hulls just to be complete...

ALL of my boats (Laser #811, 1973 San Juan 21, 1976 Lightning, and 1980 Peterson 34) have had soggy, delaminated, rotten coring in their decks. I would not want the same in my hull! (Unfortunatley, my Lightning is a cored hull and it is basically ready for the chain saw followed by the dumpster...) 

These coring problems seem to be pretty common among boats of this era. Now obviously, we've learned a lot about building and maintaining boats in the past 25-30 years, and most of my boats would not have had coring problems if they had been assembled with the care we now know is necessary, and appropriately maintained subsequently. Perhaps modern builders are taking more care in the construction of their cored laminates and the attachment of hardware and fittings to and through such laminates. Perhaps.

In either case, whether you buy a cored hull or a solid hull, make sure you hire the best surveyor you can find!

Regards,

Tim


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## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

"In either case, whether you buy a cored hull or a solid hull, make sure you hire the best surveyor you can find!"

If its in the water, you can't test for squat with a moisture meter. It would have to be on the hard for a good month (depending on the weather, of course) to dry out a bit. 

I find I get really good results with a plastic body hammer and a good ear. (and a sharpie, owners hate me marking the boats soft spots with a sharpie... its my little "thing") 


After its been on the hard for awhile, then go after it with a meter.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

*Cs 36t*

Someone mentioned the CS, FWIW this one has been twice to Bernuda and beyond and is refitted to go again;
http://www.sailboatowners.com/classified/ownerview.tpl?owno=11605739411290807&fno=400&brsku=11605739411290807.2&bd=CS&p1=0&p2=1000000&xs=All&l1=1&l2=65&active=T&sb=placed&dr=de&ad=all
(PS: full disclosure, mine).


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## brak (Jan 5, 2007)

Thanks, I am not an immediate buyer yet but I will consider this model when I get to it (and certainly from the looks of it it should go on my and anyone else's list).



sailingfool said:


> Someone mentioned the CS, FWIW this one has been twice to Bernuda and beyond and is refitted to go again;
> http://www.sailboatowners.com/classified/ownerview.tpl?owno=11605739411290807&fno=400&brsku=11605739411290807.2&bd=CS&p1=0&p2=1000000&xs=All&l1=1&l2=65&active=T&sb=placed&dr=de&ad=all
> (PS: full disclosure, mine).


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Catamount...*"I don't know what's up between Cam and the Tartan crowd"

A*ctually Cat...I'm just fooling around 'cause on every discussion of "blue water boats" there is the "Tartan" contigent which prefers the racer/cruiser approach of a well built and finished light to medium displacement boat for bluewater pasages...and the "Hans Christian" contingent which prefers heavy displacement traditional designs...which I favor. So...whenever I post about a Tayana or Cape Dory I expect someone to tout a Tartan or a Sabre etc. ...and we're all right...all of those boats are bluewater capable in the right hands...so we can joke about it. It ain't life and death except when you get a skipper like the guy off Cape Horn last week!


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

Take a look at the Allied Seabreeze. 35 foot cutaway keel/centerboard. Should be within the budget.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

T37... Of course he would have been lost somewhere off of the California coast had he started out in a "Tartan" ...


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## catamount (Sep 8, 2002)

camaraderie said:


> the "Tartan" contigent which prefers the racer/cruiser approach of a well built and finished light to medium displacement boat for bluewater pasages...and the "Hans Christian" contingent which prefers heavy displacement traditional designs... we're all right...all of those boats are bluewater capable *in the right hands.*


OK, got it.

Indeed, successful, fun, cruising and voyagaing has a lot more to do with the sailors and their preparation of themselves and their boat, than it does with the type of boat!

Regards,

Tim


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## kwaltersmi (Aug 14, 2006)

How about a Ta Shing Baba 35? Beautiful, seaworthy boats (although I have no personal experience on them).


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## snider (Jun 26, 2006)

*I'm letting the cat out of the bag!*

There are five PSC 34's on yachtworld right now for < $100 thou. I'm buying one in May so you have to wait untill after that! 



brak said:


> Oh, you are breaking my heart here I love this boat but it routinely commands prices well upward of 100K. PS 31 is a bit cheaper, but they are pretty tight - though perhaps that should be on my list.


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## brak (Jan 5, 2007)

snider said:


> There are five PSC 34's on yachtworld right now for < $100 thou. I'm buying one in May so you have to wait untill after that!


How about sharing your experiences once you get it? Or, if you ever need crew - I'd be glad to help


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## snider (Jun 26, 2006)

*Oh don't worry!*

lol....after five years of planning you guys will probably have to block me to get me to shut up....lol! Seriously though, only four months away, I can hardly contain my excitement, I've been walking around with this sh#* eating grin on my face every since the new year. This is a great year, hopefully I'll either be doing the Charleston-Bermuda race or thr ARC Europe as crew in May, then coming back to start looking at boats. Happy New Year, Brandon


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## catamount (Sep 8, 2002)

snider said:


> .. hopefully I'll either be doing the Charleston-Bermuda race or thr ARC Europe as crew in May, then coming back to start looking at boats.


What, you're not going to buy the boat first and _then_ do the race?? ;-)


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

My first choice would be a Shannon 43.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Cape Dorys are great boats, but I am always a fan of the Bristols and the Albergs. They are beautiful, and would be great for "minimal comfort and slip cost". Also, I might reccomend the slightly more upscale, Hinckely Pilot, which is gorgeous, and maneuvers very well. Good Luck


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## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

What would I take to Bermuda??

A 24 year old female, maybe a 26 year old... and her younger sister.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

cardiacpaul said:


> What would I take to Bermuda??
> 
> A 24 year old female, maybe a 26 year old... and her younger sister.


HEHEHEHE what for???? with your heart, only if its to look at them and wonder!!!!


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## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

Hey, I'm not dead yet!

I told the Dr. that we'd like to resume horizontal dancing, and he said, "I dunno about that yet, it could be fatal"... 
I looked him square in the eye and said... 

"If she dies, she dies"


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

cardiacpaul said:


> "If she dies, she dies"


HEHEHEHEHEHE.  That was funny.......how you feling?? better I hope..


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

CP...if you try that, I recommend switching to 8D AGM's!! <g>


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## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

I'm as good as I'm going to get... 

The thing they have in me regulates my heart rate and if gets over 150, it'll kick me in the heart, just like they do with the paddles on TV. 

They told me it was the size of a deck of playing cards. They lied. It feels like the size of the flash cards that the teacher uses to teach kids how to add. 

Actually, I'm doing well, considering. I was told that I can no longer use a jackhammer, or a chainsaw. Like that was a problem for me. 

I'm a little concerned that I won't be able to raise the sails without more mechanical help, but we'll deal with that when the time comes. 

Much to the chagrin of all of my ex-wives, I'm determined to live a long and happy life.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

cardiacpaul said:


> I'm as good as I'm going to get...
> 
> GOOD TO HEAR THAT
> 
> ...


I have nothing to say!!!!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

cardiacpaul said:


> What would I take to Bermuda??
> 
> A 24 year old female, maybe a 26 year old... and her younger sister.


I take it the cuban doesn't read sailnet... otherwise we'd be paying our last respects to CP shortly.


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## S/VNirvana (Jan 2, 2004)

I have a Pearson 36 for Sale, great condition $40,000. It has been upgraded annually since owned.

http://www.ablboats.com/details.asp?ListingID=74941

Sal


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Let me modify my repsonse. A Shannon 43 and the 26 year old.


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## Pamlicotraveler (Aug 13, 2006)

longwaterline said:


> My first choice would be a Shannon 43.


Good luck finding a Shannon 43 at <100M. We love our boat though, so it would be a good choice. Someone else mentioned the Tayana 37 and there are alot of them out there and I would feel very comfortable doing Newport to Bermuda in one. It's a really cool boat.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

C&C 38 Landfall
Morgan 382
Bristol 35.5

Gary


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## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

oh, she reads it alright... the direct quote was.... "Only if they're both cute and into that type of thing  "


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## brak (Jan 5, 2007)

mstern said:


> Take a look at the Allied Seabreeze. 35 foot cutaway keel/centerboard. Should be within the budget.


To bring the old topic back (and take it away from 24y/o girls, sorry guys - I'll make it up later  ).
Does anyone have a first-hand experience with Allied Seawind 32? They look good enough on paper, and a few are available around.


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## JagsBch (Jan 19, 2007)

camaraderie said:


> Catamount...*"I don't know what's up between Cam and the Tartan crowd"
> 
> A*ctually Cat...I'm just fooling around 'cause on every discussion of "blue water boats" there is the "Tartan" contigent which prefers the racer/cruiser approach of a well built and finished light to medium displacement boat for bluewater pasages...and the "Hans Christian" contingent which prefers heavy displacement traditional designs...which I favor. So...whenever I post about a Tayana or Cape Dory I expect someone to tout a Tartan or a Sabre etc. ...and we're all right...all of those boats are bluewater capable in the right hands...so we can joke about it. It ain't life and death except when you get a skipper like the guy off Cape Horn last week!


I hear stories about sailors actually feeling lighter boats buckling in high sea's. This had me looking for a heavier displacement style boat myself. How do you feel about cement boats.

This 34' custom sloop was used to smuggle aliens. I guess it was the mothership. 

The Captian dumped 25K into it after purchasing it. I'd love to hear your opinion of cement boats.

http://www.sailboatlistings.com/cgi...fault&uid=default&view_records=1&ID=5136&mh=1


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Jags..The attractive thing about ferro-cement boats is their price. Many existing FC boats are home built and NOT to the highest standard hence the poor reputation of such boats in the marketplace. There are many FC boats which have circumnavigated and many which were built by legitimate yards using great attention to the batch process and construction quality. PROPERLY built hulls will last a long time so age is not a concern. Improperly built hulls will deteriorate and ARE a concern. They are heavy and slow and resistant to damage from minor impacts but will break and sink quickly in a major impact. Many insurers will not insure a FC hull. They are extremely difficult to sell hence the low prices. If you are serious about the one you linked to, you'll probably want to have a surveyor with specific training and experience in FC hulls take a look at her rather than just a normal survey.


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

brak said:


> To bring the old topic back (and take it away from 24y/o girls, sorry guys - I'll make it up later  ).
> Does anyone have a first-hand experience with Allied Seawind 32? They look good enough on paper, and a few are available around.


The Seawind was very recently profiled in Good Old Boat magazine. Check their website to see what issue it was. I believe there were two versions of the Seawind made. No experience myself with the boat, but the author of the article certainly has a positive opinion. The Seawind, the Seabreeze's larger sibling, is one of my favorite "traditional" cruising designs.


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## JagsBch (Jan 19, 2007)

I have looked at a ton of boats and am already settled on the one I am going to buy. Its not the Cement boat. But while I have your attention I was wondering about another boat. 

What do you think about glass on wood project boat's? I am wondering if this 1968 40' newporter pilot house Ketch with a 56 HP diesel could be an opportunity, or a pipe dream. Last thing I want to get into is a refastening gig, the boat is nearby, I was wondering if it was even worth going over to have a look in order to see if this could be an investment opportunity, the owner told me some wood needs to be replaced in the hull. How much does having fiberglass over wood, remove the taboo associated with high maintenance of a wood boat... 

Speed is not an issue whatsoever. But money on the other hand, no doubt is. FYI, though at the moment I may be clueless on the whole rigging bit, fiberglass and woodworking is my forte, I am also mechanically inclined, clueless though when it comes to diesels.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Jags...Glassing over wood is a common solution that has been used sucessfully on a lot of boats including a lot of power boats. The main problem is:
1. The underlying condition of the wood
2. The quality of the glass job. 

The fact that the owner told you some wood needs to be replaces is not a good sign! Dry rot can ruin your day...and week and year! 
Unless a boat was BUILT in glass over wood, what generally happens is that the wood starts going and the owner decides to glass the hull over covering up all the underlying problems and keeping the water out. The underlying problems remain and will get worse over time...though not as quickly as without the glass.


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## JagsBch (Jan 19, 2007)

Thanks for the info. Would you take a 1979 32' Ericson with a diving Platform to Bermuda?


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Let's see-the diving platform would allow you to step up into the liferaft correct? (not to be taken seriously-lately my mind-finger connection has been a little twitchy)


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Jags...the Ericson is a nicely built boat and can certainly stand up to normal offshore conditions in season to Bemuda. The freeboard is quite low and the cockpit is large so it is easier to get pooped and I would prefer the deep draft version for such a trip as well as a skeg mounted rudder. Tankage is also quite light...so my answer is NO...I would not select this boat myself to go to Bermuda. However...it is quite a nice boat and would be ideal for coastal cruising and Bahamas etc. with occasional offshore jaunts. I've always liked these boats and lusted after one in my younger days!


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## JagsBch (Jan 19, 2007)

The 32' Ericson as it turns out was originally a 29', the diving platform was custom built. It actually has a wheel, autopilot, Raytheon radar, teak decks, dingy davits, Northstar sails, Roller furling, other electronics... The original owner passed away to wife is looking to sell for 15,000 OBO. She looks like a beaut. The lady pays a diver everyother month to clean the bottom. 

What is the deal with Northstar sails? Other than the interior being smaller than a normal 32, considering it was originally a 29', how do you suppose the sailing charateristics would differ from a standard 32'?


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## JagsBch (Jan 19, 2007)

sailaway21 said:


> Let's see-the diving platform would allow you to step up into the liferaft correct? (not to be taken seriously-lately my mind-finger connection has been a little twitchy)


Let me guess, too bold of a maneuver?


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Jag..not designed for the ocean to Bermuda me thinks. But an excellent and fast and fun boat for the St. Johns and near coast.


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## JagsBch (Jan 19, 2007)

I keep hearing the word fast. To show just how far behind the curve I am, to me that is coming off as sounding like conundrum (fast snail or jumbo shrimp). Can you do me a favor and clue me in on the whole speed trip. 

How bout clueing me in on the difference between fast and slow by please using the 34' cement hull and 32' Ericson. How is it that a 70' sailboat can reach Hawaii a week before a 33' Sailboat? That one hour of sailing time is really not giving me a clear picture here. I am for the life of me trying to get a relative sense with that all too precious hour of sailing time under my belt.

I am trying to get the outer parameters nailed down here.


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Given an unlimited amount of wind, the longer hulled boat is capable of higher speed than it's shorter brethern. Perhaps better stated, the less lengthy boat is limited in speed by the length of her hull. This is known as hull speed and is a basic hydrodynamic function. It can only be surpassed by the boat planing or, in some cases, surfing-in essence the same thing. The commonly accepted formula is 1.34 x sq. root of LWL.

For a given length of hull, the lighter boat will perform better in light air, change course more nimbly, and accelerate better. The heavier hull will require more wind to perform and may have a more sea-kindly motion or nature. Designers target certain markets when lofting out a boat. Every decision is a compromise of one sort or another. A fast racing boat may make for a very hard and wet ride offshore. This may be acceptable to some for their purposes. Others, who plan to spend alot of time at sea, ie...cruising will find the extra speed of not great importance and the poor ride intolerable. Some boats bridge the gap better than others.

This is a very controversial topic, especially around these here parts. It is generally agreed that oceans have been crossed in cockleshells and races have been won by tortoises, but that is not what to look at when planning a specific boat purchase. Most would agree that enough speed to be able to run from weather is desirable. Most would also agree that the ease of handling of the vessel is probably more important than outright speed, or in fact, many other characteristics.

You are certainly on the right track and your questions have elucidated some good responses-keep asking, you've got the right peoples attention. Inevitably, you are going to get some disagreement, specifically the, "I crossed the Pacific in my Glassotron Wavemaster 14 and I'd do it again" or "It is unsafe to go more than 5 miles offshore in anything less than a Whiff-a-Mystic barkentine". You'll know 'em when you read 'em.

This ain't really a Ford versus Chevy truck debate. It's more like debating every vehicle ever made, because boats live longer than most cars and there are many older boats that rank as well, or even better, than one's splashed yesterday. Paralysis of analysis is a real threat.


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## JagsBch (Jan 19, 2007)

Do cat's and tri's factor in differently in regards to the speed formula?

I was amazed to hear that BonBon, a Reichel-Pugh 81-footer was sailing in IRC 1 class while battling for Sub class honors during the largest winter regatta in North America @ Acura Key West 2007, presented by Nautica This week. Where do you draw the line? How big does a boat get before it being considered a racing boat is simply out of the question?










I figured that people on the side of the boat where acting as the keel would on a cruiser, how is the length, shape and weight of the keel determined? I remember as a kid watching on TV the secrecy revolved around keels in racing boats back in the day. That has me figuring the answer to this question is more than likely far too complex for me to grasp in my milk man stage, but any attempt to do so would be greatly appreciated.

It's been nearly a month now since I took the dive while on my quest to search for a sailboat to "live aboard", I knew it was going to be a big step, but as far as I am concerned now this is akin to landing on the moon. When I realized my attempt at being domesticated was a complete failure, I had no idea the awesome reality awaiting me when I finally annihilated the domestic bubble that had drug me through the dirt face first I might add till I was nearly 6 feet under. 

It is only now, while in my search for a boat, that I realize I have just broken through the murky cloud of ignorance, to the point of actually acknowledging the mother~load reality associated with sailing, which in all actuality happens to be beyond my wildest dreams. I am looking forward to getting dialed in. I have reached the point of no return. The expression of being born again is definitely in order. Agoogoo agaga is all I want to say to you... Got Milk?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Jags-

Yes, most cats and tris need to use a different formula for their hull speed calculations. This is due to the greater length to beam ratio, usually 8:1 or higher, compared to the nearly 3:1 of most monohulls. Most multis can easily sail above their "calculated" hull speed. My 28' tri often sails at 10-12 knots without any real effort on my part.


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## brak (Jan 5, 2007)

catamount said:


> There are several different models of C&C 35, spanning many years, and their prices have a wider range. Mark I's seem also list for between $25K to $35K. J35's tend to be more expensive (can still find them well under $100K though), but you might occaisionally find a beat racer for under $40K.


Well, I've just found out C&C 35s have cored hulls, even MKI made in early 70s. And here I am wondering why my moisture meter topped out of scale on the bottom of C&C 35 I looked at a week ago. Bummer.


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## CBinRI (May 17, 2004)

p said:


> P.S. Sorry for posting in "this" EDITED BY CAM


In this case, "sorry" just won't do it.


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## FritzN (Sep 30, 2006)

*Mason 33 with no teak decks*

My last boat was a Mason 33, a heavy displacement, high-quality Taiwan-built boat. I kept it in San Diego, commuted 35 weeks a year for five years from Denver, and lived aboard. It's comfortable, performs very well when the wind kicks up (e.g. when the small craft warning flag is flying) and is the prettiest boat in any anchorage. Here's an example of one for sale that has no teak decks (at www.boats.com):

http://www.boats.com/listing/boat_d...ipcode=Zip&ps=20&clk_srcrvs_nav&srh_next=true

You won't find many of them out there, because they sold new for around $125,000 in the early eighties (a big price at that time for a 33-foot boat). The PAE folks (now the producers of the very successful Nordhaven trawler line), its importer, built a boat that was just too costly to compete in the 33-foot market, so they didn't build many before they discontinued the line.

I'd take one to Bermuda very confidently.


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## btrayfors (Aug 25, 2006)

Boeing 747-400. Less than 2 hours. Less than $1,000. No slip fees.

Nothing, but nothing, goes to windward like a 747


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## Denr (Feb 7, 2001)

MacGregor 26 hands down!


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## Bermuda (Jan 30, 2001)

Lest we not forget the Island Packet 32 on which I have made five round trips from New York Harbor to St George's, Bermuda. Even sailed one of the outbound legs, single handed five years ago at age 60. This boat is definetely bullet proof and considerbly larger below decks than many of the boats mentioned in this thread.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

CS made very good quality boats. They are fairly quick. There were two versions of the 36. The 'Traditional' and the 'Merlin'. The Merlins are prized as racer/cruisers and sell for about 25K more than the Traditionals. A lot of the Merlins have been raced hard. They don't have cored hulls. Earlier CS boats have been known to be prone to blisters.

Niagara 35's have cored hulls. There are two versions, the Mk 1 which does not have a V-Berth, and the Encore, which does. The Mk 1's sell around 60K US in decent condition and the Encores are about 80K if you can find one. Not sure what's up with the moisture meter Brak, but C&C 35 Mk 1's don't have cored hulls and are quite fast. The Mk II's do not have cored hulls either. The C&C's were always doing well in the Halifax/Bermuda race, so you know that they're suitable for the trip. Most of the C&C's did eventually end up with coring in the hull, and an awful lot of them have serious problems now. You can find out about them at http://www.cncphotoalbum.com The site has brochures and specs on just about every C&C that was ever built.

The Corbin 39 might also be an option. They were primarily sold as hull and deck shells for owner finishing, but some were factory finished. There is a fairly broad price range. Their hulls are incredibly strong. Another very well built boat is the Aloha 34. Lots of room, quick and built to a high standard. You'll pay between 45 and 60K US for a good one, well maintained and equipped for cruising with radar, tanks, etc.

My personal faviorite is the Alberg 37, which you should be able to find in your price range. These are exceptionally pretty boats with solid hulls and many of them have been around the world a few times. There is a decent one for sale at http://www.niagarayachtsales.com/ which you should be able to get for about 44K US. The owners put a lot into it in anticipation of a lengthy cruise. They have it listed at http://www.alberg37.org/ . Click on the Alberg 37's For Sale link on the left hand menu, and then look for Gonzo. There is a pretty extensive inventory list there. Don't let the asking price scare you off, they are aparently willing to negotiate. The hull is in great condition. I almost bought it last week, but wimped out and went for a CS with pressure water and stuff. It's a boat that deserves the open sea and I won't be doing that for a while.


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## LyleRussell (May 3, 2006)

What do you guys think of J-37's for Bermuda?


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## gdecon (Mar 13, 2000)

Don't...................


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## kwaltersmi (Aug 14, 2006)

I don't think anyone has mentioned a Ta Shing Baba 35 yet. That's a beautiful boat that's somewhat comarable to the Tayana 37. Any thoughts?


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