# Jib sheet knot catching on stays...



## FloridaBoy (May 4, 2014)

Hello All! Got a 35 Morgan a few months back and been fixing her up. Got tired of working on her and decided to go sailing for a while. So, I'm sailing. One problem I've encountered is this, the jib sheet is tied to the jib with a bowline, At least 5/8" braid. My boat has a slightly forward stay, separate from the stays on the chain plates. The bowline catches on these stays, almost always and requires jerking and snatching to get it off. Any ideas would be appreciated. Thanks, Kevin


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## celenoglu (Dec 13, 2008)

Keep the loop of the bowline a lot larger.


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## jsaronson (Dec 13, 2011)

Use a halyard knot.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I find the amount of slack you allow in the released sheet plays a big part. If you keep too much tension, while tacking, you get hung up. Obviously, you don't want to just release it entirely, until the clew passes the mast, or she flogs and whips everything aboard. Getting in between is the trick for me. I don't release the working sheet, until the sail just begins to back wind. Therefore, there will be some effort and momentum to push her across too. Wait too long and you have excess tension again. Balance.


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## lancelot9898 (Dec 30, 2008)

Try a cow hitch, but you need one long line as opposed to two.


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## jimkyle99 (Mar 20, 2013)

What these guys said. I have a similar problem with my genoa hanging up on the shroud. Let the genoa back fill a bit before fully releasing what is now the windward sheet and let the knot blow past the shroud before pulling in the lee sheet. Don't pull the genoa across. Timing can get a bit tricky if you are sailing single handed but otherwise it works.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Putting an appropriate length of PVC or ABS pipe over the offending shroud/stay helps a lot with this sort of problem. I find the black pipe less visually distracting


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

Bete-Fleming Shroud Rollers

There used to be a manufacture of quite small OD (~1 inch dia.) 'plastic' 2-piece shroud rollers that were interlocking and required no 'fasteners' to keep them in place. Installed they didnt cover the turnbuckle nor rigging screw, etc.

http://www.defender.com/product3.jsp?path=-1|118|2358491|2358503&id=74993

Without shroud rollers, etc., most times if you pull the jibsheet tighter before you release, there will be enough momentum and kinetic force to cause the damn knot to 'bump and jump' across a shroud.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

All good solutions but quite often the last word on smooth tacks is simply "timing". Maybe faster, maybe slower, but almost always a change in speed does the trick.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Time to learn to splice.
We've spliced eyes in our jib sheets (7/8") and attached the eyes to the clew with some 1/4" dyneema lashing. 
We had exactly the same problem (imagine a bowline in 7/8" line) and have not had any since we switched to this method.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

In addition to what's already been said, I'd suggest your 5/8" line seems awfully heavy for that boat, you really shouldn't need more than about 7/16"... May not sound like much of a difference, but that change alone could make for a marked improvement, and you should also see an improvement in your sail shape in light air...


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## FloridaBoy (May 4, 2014)

Yes, Jon, I was wondering about that line size, also. I am a novice sailor. That's what came with the boat. Seemed kinda big to me when I compare with other boats at the marina. All good ideas. I hear ya on the timing. I went down and lengthened the bowlines to about a foot or so. They were real tiny, 3 inches maybe. I'll try that and then I think the halyard knot. The timing... I drag that jib across the boat. I'll try backing it a tad and then letting it go. Thanks for all the great ideas! Kevin


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

lancelot9898 said:


> Try a cow hitch, but you need one long line as opposed to two.


Bingo! A larks head or cows hitch works tremendously well... Alternatively let the sail do the work. Many owners try to yank or rip the sail _across_ when the sail will do that _all by itself_ if you let it....


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## danvon (Dec 10, 2012)

+1 on the splicing. Mine caught on the shrouds every tack with a bowline Spliced eyes on the ends & connected to the sail with a Dyneema soft shackle. No more problems. I'd use white line for the shackle though. The red color from mine left a nice pink spot on my genoa.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

I have a jib where the clew itself likes to hang up. By attaching the sheets to a sling instead of the clew, the sail can float away from the stay. Not even a larks head solved the problem, but this did. Very simple.










Sail Delmarva: Snag Reduction--Or Tacking Without Tears


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## H and E (Sep 11, 2011)

I use a cowhitch fastened to a bowline loop with a 8" leader to the clew. (Leader is small diameter dyneema line) Jib sheets need to be one continuous line. Works great for me and makes it easy to attach whisker pole. Also learned to let sail do the work except in really light air.


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## rbrasi (Mar 21, 2011)

And if you are using bowlines, try to make one loop larger than the other so that when they cross your shrouds during tacks, it's two small knots in a row, rather than one big clump of stayset.


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## justified (Jun 14, 2007)

+1 on letting the sail do the work, by letting it back wind a little before you release. The sail will come across nicely on its own and you will maintain speed in doing so. Also +1 on making one loop a little bigger/longer. 
One thing to look at and it may get some use to is make sure that the tag end(tail) of your bowline is running inside the loop when finished. It sounds small, but makes a big difference. 
Peter


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## Arioso (Feb 9, 2015)

I'm for the PVC pipe on the shroud -as chafe is the enemy in life along with those anoying hang ups that tied bowline jibs sheets present. I don't like shackles though as they can hit you in the teeth or face.


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## Multihullgirl (Dec 2, 2010)

Single braid is a good solution. You can make a Brummel splice that has two long tails and larks-head/luggage-tag the loop into your jib clew:


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## FloridaBoy (May 4, 2014)

Sweet! About a million ways to fix my problem. Gonna go with the solutions that don't require a new one piece jib sheet, for now. I'm digging the one piece jib sheet with the cow hitch, but for now, gonna take the cheap way out. Try some different knots and work on my timing. Going out Thursday, calling for west winds 10-15. Perfect. Thanks to all for great advice and pics. I'll let you know. Kevin


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## i_amcdn (Jul 4, 2012)

Timing is 99% of everything in life.

The only cleat up front on my Edel is a centre mounted cleat about 4 ft back from the furler. If I don't tighten up the loose jib sheet as the FIRST step in preparing to tack then guaranteed that loose sheet will get hung up on the cleat. The only way to get it off is to to forward. 

I then have the problem of the bowlines hanging up on the stay. Thank you for the suggestions above.


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## aloof (Dec 21, 2014)

I agree it sounds more like a timing and technique problem. All good advice above. Also, the usual bowline knot catches less when tied one way than the other. Depends which side the bend is on. Experiment at the dock.


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## theonecalledtom (Jan 2, 2008)

Or a pair of soft shackles. Though if you're not looking to change sails on the fly the larks head should work fine, but I haven't tried MultiHullGirl's suggestion and it looks pretty neat...

Edit: Soft shackles are pretty easy to make yourself and pretty cheap, however you'd want to eyesplice the jib sheet and if it's old that could be difficult. Splicing is a great way to end the day fwiw.


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## CalypsoP35 (Jul 24, 2006)

I have eye splices in my jib sheets and rather than lash them or use soft shackles I just run the tail through the eye. I used to have the same issue with my bowlines getting caught on my shrouds.


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## FloridaBoy (May 4, 2014)

Ok, went sailing. Lengthened bowlines to jib clew to about 14 inches. First tack, let the sail backfill a little and then let her rip and the jib came right across. Pretty cool. Worked almost every time. Funny thing, the one time I remember it didn't work was when one knot caught on the main stay and the other knot on the forward stay! That was a toughie! But, in retrospect, I don't think I was paying attention, that time. Those sheets are too big for sure. Them bowline knots are huge! But with better timing, I only remember getting hung up that one time. Might try the old halyard knot tomorrow. Oh yeah, learned about "sailing on the anchor" today. Read about it, heard about it, never experienced it, until today. Thought I'd anchor up at the end of the day and rig my reefing lines. So, took in the jib, left main up and dropped the hook. I'm looking for the anchor line over the side to see where it's going and it's going aft! Aackkk!!! The boat was sailing itself forward. I was afraid, lest I get the line in the wheel. Let the main sheet go and that helped some. But, in the end, had to drop the main. Lots of stuff going on, sail flogging in the wind, noisy, wind was honking, 15 knots, kinda bogged my mind down. Anyways, got that experience today. So, we made it back to the dock in one piece, again. Thanks again for all the advice. Kevin PS had her up to 7.3 knots today for about 3 minutes! Pretty cool! K


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Glad to hear things went better for you..

But to clarify something.. When people reference their (or others') boats 'sailing at anchor' we don't mean anchored with a sail up.. that's just asking for trouble. Some boats, most notably lightweight, narrow chord keelboats, tend to 'sail' and hunt around the anchor point just on the forces and imbalances in the rig and hull alone. In extreme cases the bows fall off, the boat heads across the breeze and then fetches up really hard and repeats the process in the other direction. Sometimes the 'fetch up' is enough to actually dislodge the anchor, and it's certainly an uncomfortable thing to try to sleep through.

In the trades where winds don't typically die overnight, many hoist a 'riding sail' to dampen this kind of motion - they help a lot, esp to minimize the force of the turnaround. They are small flat sails flown off the backstay, and 'weathercock' the bow more into the wind to reduce the effect.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Sounds like you're well on your way! Good luck and enjoy!


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## knuterikt (Aug 7, 2006)

i_amcdn said:


> Timing is 99% of everything in life.
> 
> The only cleat up front on my Edel is a centre mounted cleat about 4 ft back from the furler. If I don't tighten up the loose jib sheet as the FIRST step in preparing to tack then guaranteed that loose sheet will get hung up on the cleat. The only way to get it off is to to forward.
> 
> I then have the problem of the bowlines hanging up on the stay. Thank you for the suggestions above.


If you are having problems with sheets hanging on your cleats you could copy these.


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## blutoyz (Oct 28, 2012)

The first thing I thought when I read your "problem" is you are forcing the tack and low and behold...quite a few sailors on here thought the same thing. Let the wind do the work and your problem is solved

No need to mess around with anything else (yes..your sheets are a bit heavy though)


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## sciencebum (Dec 11, 2014)

That cleat cover is rad.


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## aloof (Dec 21, 2014)

Those cleat covers are a good idea. However consider that a good shot of green water can probably, surprisingly, spring them loose. Consider a knotted line rather than bungee.

Not having seen a slip in years, and only an occasional short stay at fuel docks, I removed all my forward cleats.


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## knuterikt (Aug 7, 2006)

aloof said:


> Those cleat covers are a good idea. However consider that a good shot of green water can probably, surprisingly, spring them loose. Consider a knotted line rather than bungee.
> 
> Not having seen a slip in years, and only an occasional short stay at fuel docks, I removed all my forward cleats.


The bungee cord give the cleat covers a snug fit - you need to slide on part completely off the cleat before you can remove the other half.

If you fear they will bee forced of by green water - I would have added a safety line in addition to the bungee as it's a bit difficult to get a tight fit with line alone.

This idea is not mine - think I have seen it several places but don't remember where, it's cheaper than those fancy fold down cleats.
I use i to prevent my asymmetric sheets from getting hung on the cleats during a gybe.


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