# Portable Generator vs Genset



## dougshipl (Jan 22, 2007)

Looking at purchasing either 2 Honda EU1000 or 1 Honda EU 2000. We have a 46'sailboat with typical loads but no genset and dont want to run engine everytime to charge house bank (6-6volt golf cart batteries). Bids on Panda (recommended by dealer) seems a crazy price vs $1.000 to $1,300. We plan to do typical BVI/Bahama cruising and dont have aircondition. Thoughts?


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Search the archives here under panda-there was a thread on the subject not so long ago.


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## dohenyboy (Aug 16, 2006)

Don't buy a Panda. They are over-engineered and break down constantly. Spent some time with one of their biggest dealers. They told me they love selling the generators because they are lifetime revenue streams for the dealer. 
On genset vs. Conventional generator, others on this list can fill you in better than I. But some air conditioning units draw too much power on startup and won't start with the 1 or 2 kW portables. The 3 kW honda is $1995-getting close to the price of a genset


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## btrayfors (Aug 25, 2006)

Many cruisers successfully use portable Honda generators, but you have to be VERY careful (gasoline and, especially, carbon monoxide fumes).

For your boat, don't bother with the 1000; you need the 2000. It will run up to a 75A charger, and that's what you need at a minimum for your 6 golf-carts.

Obviously, the diesel genset is a better choice, but it's much more costly. Panda generators are cute, but they've suffered from a LOT of problems. They have recently improved their service and support, but I'd stay away from them.

Look at the NextGen or other small Kubota-based generators. 

Bill


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

What has air conditioning have to do with it? Do you WANT air conditioning? If so, the Hondas won't cut it. You'll need a 4 KW genset (and I hear a lot of knocks against Panda...but as I'll never buy one, _caveat emptor_.)

If you don't want airconditioning, then "typical loads" are best met via solar/wind charging, with the Honda EU2000 as a backup, or as a means to run occasional heavy loads (ShopVac, drill, big fans, Koolatron, emergency pumps) without imposing on the inverter.

Because you'll have an inverter, right?

The Honda EU2000 is a beautiful thing, and it allows small boat owners to have some luxuries by providing via charging of the house batteries or directly 8-10 amps of cheap, dependable AC. But on a larger boat it is at best a supplemental thing to solar/wind/alternator. It's part of a bigger puzzle that dare I say takes a holistic approach to energy generation, and could see little use (until the boat shorts out and you need it to call for help on the radio, or to run a spotlight on your sails), or it could be used a fair bit, if you want to run appliances or tools with it.

Imagine being on the hook and power washing your deck. A Honda EU2000 can do that. So can an inverter, but not nearly as efficiently. Eight minutes of running a 700 watt microwave in the galley, on the other hand, is more or less an inverter task, as is energizing the boat's AC plugs so you can charge up hand tools, VHFs, the kids' DVD player, the laptop and what have you.

If you go to remote places on calm days, hauling a Honda might make a lot of sense...imagine cold food on the beach of some deserted cay, or maybe a line of Christmas lights to illuminate a seaside tryst...putt, putt, putt....

There's several recent threads that discuss the role of portable generators. As primary sources, they are strictly small potatoes. But as backups to the backups, or as portable ways to do stuff that would kill your house banks in short order, they are great value, especially on a bigger boat that has the room to store them and the deck on which to lash them.


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## jasonr575 (Sep 12, 2006)

i have been thinking of a cheap way to get some air conditioning on my boat at the mooring also. i am not sure of loads and how much the generator can take but was considering one the the 2000wt generators from honda and one of the 5000 btu portable a/c units found at walmart or similar stores. they vent out through a hose which you can stick out a hatch. cost i have seen 300-400 dollars. plus you have to buy the honda generator. some places list the info on how much energy they use but i am not sure how that equasion goes. 
i assume the startup and running wattage would have to be less than 2000 watts. (if using a 2000watt generator)


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

One thing you have to realize is that the power rating of generators is for RESISTIVE loads. *If you are using inductive loads, like motors, the generator rating needs to be about twice the load. *For instance, a 2000 W generator can probably run 20x100 Watt light bulbs... but a 1200 W microwave oven would probably fail to operate.


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## thekeip (Aug 8, 2007)

The power factor thing can be a real problem when trying to charge batteries through a normal charger...ie, using the generator's 120VAC into the charger's AC input. The charger presents a very high inductive load to the generator which, as mentioned above, would require a disproportionitly larger generator. But the solution to that, although counter-intuitive, is to add a couple of 25w or so light bulbs in parallel with the charger....the change in power factor more than offsets the effect of the extra load. Alternatively, a better solution would be to add an AC capacitor rather than the bulbs...either a 'motor start' or 'motor run' variety purchased at an appliance store....Sears, for instance.
Howard Keiper
Sea Quest
Berkeley


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Good advice for those of us still on the electrical learning curve.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

Folks are probably tired of hearing me say this, but I'm going to repeat myself nonetheless:

The U.S. Coast Guard and ABYC recommend strongly against using portable gasoline generators aboard recreational vessels. Carbon monoxide poisoning is the greatest threat, as is risk of fire.

Please don't anchor ANYWHERE near other boats if you plan to use one of these on deck. Nothing ruins a peaceful anchorage quite like an air-cooled portable genset.


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## k1vsk (Jul 16, 2001)

I always wonder how the danger(s) posed by gas gensets such as the Honda compare with that of propane which is almost ubiquitous to cruising sailboats. Regardless of one's use of a gas genset, gasoline is typically already aboard most boats for use in the outboard which leads me to believe the gasoline hazard posed specifically by gensets is moot. Certainly the availability and use of propane sniffers is comparable to that of CO detectors so availability of warning devices is also a moot issue.
Intuitively, I would think that propane causes far more accidents than gasoline and as both are commonly found aboard (gas for outboards and propane for cooking).
Do the statisitcs bear out the warnings against the use of gas gensets?

Paranthetically,I was parked immediately behind a boat using a Honda sitting on his transom last summer in Cuttyhunk and tried paying attention to it's use as I was considering buying one at the time. Not having heard it running all day , I vertured over by dinghy that night to ask only to hear it was in fact running - convinced me about it's quiet operation.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

Propane accidents are rare - especially when you consider how many boats are so-equipped. Carbon monoxide poisoning occurs frequently. There have been so many cases of carbn monoxide poisoning, including many deaths, that the Coast Guard in recent years has stepped-up it's campaign of warning boaters about the risk. Carbon monoxide can "pool" in unpredictable locations -- so fitting your boat with a CO detector(s) may or may not help you. 

The big difference between the risks of propane and CO from gasoline combustion is that the propane appliance, when functioning properly, is not a risk. The gasoline appliance, when functioning properly, is emmiting a poisonous gas.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

John—

That's kind of a given, and every boat that runs a genset should have a CO detector aboard.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

JohnRPollard said:


> Folks are probably tired of hearing me say this, but I'm going to repeat myself nonetheless:
> 
> The U.S. Coast Guard and ABYC recommend strongly against using portable gasoline generators aboard recreational vessels. Carbon monoxide poisoning is the greatest threat, as is risk of fire.
> 
> Please don't anchor ANYWHERE near other boats if you plan to use one of these on deck. *Nothing ruins a peaceful anchorage quite like an air-cooled portable genset.*


I could not have said it any better than John.


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## CGMojo (Jul 6, 2007)

*Good Info*

Great information as usual, thanks!


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

sailingdog said:


> John-
> 
> That's kind of a given, and every boat that runs a genset should have a CO detector aboard.


Agreed, but Diesel gensets do not pose the same risk.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

John-

While diesel gensets don't pose the same fire risk, they do provide a serious CO risk.


JohnRPollard said:


> Agreed, but Diesel gensets do not pose the same risk.


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## TAK (Jul 14, 2003)

JohnRPollard said:


> Agreed, but Diesel gensets do not pose the same risk.


How much quieter do you think the diesel Genset will be - particularly to the people on board?

A friend has a Honda on his boat using it forthe coffee maker and charging batteries .. I kinda liked the idea of using to it to run a portable ac heater briefly in the morning to take the chill out of the boat during the late fall or early spring anchorages..


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## k1vsk (Jul 16, 2001)

All good points of view but for those of us who also have a gas genset sitting in the garage or shed, it's not a big deal to ensure it is stored and run safely since we're used to it. From what I've observed, the objectional noise from this particular genset sounds (pun intended) like a perceived rather than real concern.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

BTW, diesel gensets are generally noisier than gas gensets of the same size. The two-stroke gas gensets are pretty noisy, but the four-stroke Hondas are pretty quiet.


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

The honda EU 2000i runs my mermaid 16500 btu air conditioner just fine - but not the hot water, battery charger etc all at once. The 2000 puts out a sustained 13amps, including the water pumps - which is all the installed AC on a Gemini needs. Not every boat needs 4kw to be cool.
Some folks have a home depot window mounted cheap unit - they work fine with the 2000i as well.
Gasoline storage aside (anyone got a diesel outboard for the dinghy? Yeah I thot not - and who cruises without at least a 5hp for the dinghy? )
I'd get a 1000 and a 2000 - run the 1000 when that's all you need, use the 2000 when the load picks up, that way you have redunancy and load capacity. If you are doing the southern lats with ladies, forget the 'don't need a airconditioner' - get a portable hatch mounted one. You'll sleep better on windless nights and suck the humidity out of the cabin.
Oh - one more kicker, the Honda's are cheaper than a 2000w inverter and don't suck your battery dry or keep you up at night worrying about power consumption while the wife blow drys her hair.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

I will just add in my experience here.

I used a gas genset once (well, several times, acutally). Never again. It rattled the boat and stank and carrying the gas was a pain in the butt.

I have had two diesel gen's since then: a panda and a Mastervolt. I prefer the MV. It is pretty idiot proof. I will say that I never had the issues with my Panda that others have shared. It ran fine and only needed oil changes. The same is true with the MV. 

With a nice water muffeler, the gens are very quiet and only give a nice, soft hum. HOWEVER, they are VERY expensive. 15k seems about right, installed. You can cut that cost by doing a bunch of it yourself, but it is a project.

If you are not going to put in air conditioning, I do not see the point of a generator. With a nice battery bank and a good inverter, you can run everything on your boat. I am not trying to start another solar thread, but I have had a solar arch built, with 4 Kyocera panels, and a Outback MX-60 for: 3700+2400+600. That is about 7k, and I am TOTALLY off the grid. I can put out over 200ah/day. You can cut that cost considerably by jerry-rigging you panels on top of your bimini or some other creative invention... but I think the money may be better spent on the arch since it can serve many other purposes. It is cheap, quiet, free energy that does not require any maintenance. Now, compared to a gas generator, that may seem expensive and it is. I appreciate all those that can deal with the rattle and frustration of those noisy little Honda dudes. I am not one of them. 

Just my opinions, so take them as such. I do not mean to put down those that get the gas generators, I am just giving my experience and opinions.

- CD


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

sailingdog said:


> John- While diesel gensets don't pose the same fire risk, they do provide a serious CO risk.


Actually, diesel gensets produce only a fraction of the amount of CO that gasoline engines and generators produce. They pose no more CO risk than diesel auxiliaries, which is to say very little. The greatest risk of CO poisoning in boats equipped with diesel engines and gensets occurs when they raft with or dock in close proximity to vessels that run gasoline engines and gensets. The CO from the other boats can waft aboard, and since there is no requirement to equip such diesel powered boats with CO detectors, the CO could go undetected. This is reason enough to install CO detectors in your diesel powered boat.



sailingdog said:


> BTW, diesel gensets are generally noisier than gas gensets of the same size. The two-stroke gas gensets are pretty noisy, but the four-stroke Hondas are pretty quiet.


DC diesel gensets run at a constant rpm, and can be shielded with sound proofing specifically tuned to the frequency of noise produced. They tend to be very quiet when properly sound-proofed. AC diesel gensets vary their rpm with load, and tend to be noisier because they are more difficult to sound proof.



k1vsk said:


> All good points of view but for those of us who also have a gas genset sitting in the garage or shed, it's not a big deal to ensure it is stored and run safely since we're used to it. From what I've observed, the objectional noise from this particular genset sounds (pun intended) like a perceived rather than real concern.


To each his own. But I wouldn't want anyone reading this to misunderstand your statement above and conclude that you safely operate that generator "in the garage or shed". That is only where you store it. I see no great risk in carefully storing the generator aboard a vessel in the same vented locker in which you already store your gasoline supply. It is the operating of it on deck that creates the serious risk, and that is why ABYC and USCG recommend against doing so.


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## k1vsk (Jul 16, 2001)

JohnRPollard said:


> Actually, diesel gensets produce only a fraction of the amount of CO that gasoline engines and generators produce. They pose no more CO risk than diesel auxiliaries, which is to say very little.
> 
> I wouldn't want anyone reading this to misunderstand your statement above and conclude that you safely operate that generator "in the garage or shed". That is only where you store it. I see no great risk in carefully storing the generator aboard a vessel in the same vented locker in which you already store your gasoline supply. It is the operating of it on deck that creates the serious risk, and that is why ABYC and USCG recommend against doing so.


Not to nit-pick but there is lots of misinformation related to diesel CO production as compared with gas engines. Although true that diesels produce CO at a lower concentrtion in the exhaust, it is equally true that diesels exhaust a much greater volume all else being equal such that although the concentration is less, that actual CO production is essentially equivalent and therefore equally dangerous making the issue of gas gensets CO hazard moot. Either can create the same hazard and arguably, operating one on deck has less potential for dangerous fumes to collect below than the other. 
Bottom line - either can be dangerous if operated by an idiot or intelligent neglect.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

k1vsk said:


> Not to nit-pick but there is lots of misinformation related to diesel CO production as compared with gas engines. Although true that diesels produce CO at a lower concentrtion in the exhaust, it is equally true that diesels exhaust a much greater volume all else being equal such that although the concentration is less, that actual CO production is essentially equivalent and therefore equally dangerous making the issue of gas gensets CO hazard moot. Either can create the same hazard and arguably, operating one on deck has less potential for dangerous fumes to collect below than the other.
> Bottom line - either can be dangerous if operated by an idiot or intelligent neglect.


K1VSK,

Since your claim above is contrary to EVERYTHING I've ever read on this subject, I'm going to ask you to provide convincing evidence that the CO output of diesel combustion is effectively the same as gasoline. Don't forget to factor that the diesel generator or engine will consume a fraction of the amount of fuel of the comparable output gas engine/generator. My understanding, all else equalized, is you will find the diesel emits something like 10% of what the gasoline engine puts out in CO. But if you have evidence to the contrary, I will be eager to read it.


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## Zanshin (Aug 27, 2006)

To add to the Panda knocking - I have one aboard my boat and apart from oil changes and impeller changes it works well. Press the on-off and the start button to start it, and the off button to stop it. It runs quietly and produces power enough to charge batteries, heat water, run 2 AC units and the A/C plugs (although both AC units need to be started separately).


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## k1vsk (Jul 16, 2001)

JohnRPollard said:


> K1VSK,
> 
> Since your claim above is contrary to EVERYTHING I've ever read on this subject, I'm going to ask you to provide convincing evidence that the CO output of diesel combustion is effectively the same as gasoline. Don't forget to factor that the diesel generator or engine will consume a fraction of the amount of fuel of the comparable output gas engine/generator. My understanding, all else equalized, is you will find the diesel emits something like 10% of what the gasoline engine puts out in CO. But if you have evidence to the contrary, I will be eager to read it.


John
I understand your skepticism as this myth has perpetuated itself quite well over the years so if I have time tomorrow, I'll find the data to support my statement, however, I did post it once here previously to show the calculations for various sized diesels and gas engines to demonstrate the science. It would be much easier on me if I simply suggest that, as you are the one questioning it, and if you really wanted to see it and judge for yourself, to do a search of the actual data.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

K1VSK,

I am not challenging your integrity, nor do I doubt that you have posted support for your position somewhere here on Sailnet. However, I am not going to expend my time searching the internet for evidence supporting an assertion I believe to be incorrect. I feel the onus to prove rests with the proponent of an assertion that is contrary to established understandings and recommendations.

If you have authoritative, scientific evidence to support your position, I would honestly like to read it. And if it is convincing, I also think someone should contact the US Coast Guard and ABYC to apprise them of their mistake. At this time, both of these organizations continue to warn against the use of portable gas generators aboard recreational vessels due to the risk of CO poisoning. Both also state in their guidance regarding CO that diesel engines pose significantly less threat. The relevant portions of the ABYC document states:

"Portable Generator Sets - Do not use this equipment on boats. Gasoline powered portable generator sets produce CO. These sets discharge their exhaust products in locations which can lead to an increase in the accumulation of carbon monoxide in the occupied space."

(ABYC TH-22, Educational Information About Carbon Monoxide, July 2002, at 7); and:

"What Makes Carbon Monoxide?

"Carbon monoxide is produced anytime a material containing carbon burns, such as gasoline, natural gas, oil, propane, coal, or wood. Common sources of CO are internal combustion engines and open flame appliances such as cooking ranges, central heating plants, space heaters, water heaters, fireplaces, and charcoal grills.

*"The carbon monoxide component of diesel exhaust is extremely low relative to the carbon monoxide level found in gasoline engine exhaust."*

(ABYC TH-22, Educational Information About Carbon Monoxide, July 2002, at 1-2, emphasis added.)

The US Coast Guard adopts this ABYC guidance and incorporates it by reference in its safety bulletin on CO. (US Coast Guard Boating Safety Circular 74 -- Carbon Monoxide, The Invisible Killer (June 1992), Citing and Incorporating ABYC Technical Information Report T-22 (Educational Information About Carbon Monoxide), January 1992. [citing an earlier versin of the ABYC adivisory above]).

You and I have had this debate before, and I think we agreed to disagree. Which is fine. I also acknowledge that many cruisers are using portable gas gensets. I just don't want an inexperienced reader of this thread to draw the wrong conclusions for lack of sufficient information.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Yes, but doing so would probably require a permanent or semi-permanent installation...rather than a portable unit. Most smaller boats, like the OPs are too small to fit a permanent genset installation.


JohnRPollard said:


> DC diesel gensets run at a constant rpm, and can be shielded with sound proofing specifically tuned to the frequency of noise produced. They tend to be very quiet when properly sound-proofed. AC diesel gensets vary their rpm with load, and tend to be noisier because they are more difficult to sound proof.


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## jr438234606 (Apr 25, 2006)

I'll throw my 2-cents in here since I can speak from experience. As I live along the Gulf Coast, an air-conditioner is a must. This past season I had a choice of spending $8,000 - $10,000 for a 5KW professionally installed diesel genset, or spending $1000 for a gasoline-powered, air-cooled, self-installed unit. After doing a lot of research, I concluded that a diesel genset is ideal. The only drawback is cost... but it's a MAJOR drawback. I could not see forking over so much money for a diesel "marine" generator when an adequate alternative exists. Using a gasoline-powered, portable generator in a marine environment presents a large set of obstacles, but I was convinced that these obstacles could be overcome (what with mother necessity and all that).

The challenges to overcome consist chiefly of the following:

1.) Carbon Monoxide risk
2.) Air-Cooled engine
3.) Gasoline Fumes
4.) Small capacity tank
5.) Exhaust Fumes
6.) Non-marinized components
7.) Inconvenient (unit has to be lugged onto the deck for each use)
8.) Noise
9.) Must handle starting loads of a 13000 BTU air conditioner.

I decided to go with a portable gas-powered generator and overcome these obstacles. I purchased a Yamaha EF2400IS. This is a true sine wave generator of very good quality.

*Noise, Inconvenience*

To overcome these two, I permanently installed the unit within the rear lazerettes. The unit is bolted down and the lazerette is sound insulated. The unit comes with thick rubber feet. It was very quite to begin with, but now it's virtually silent.

*Air-Cooled engine, Exhaust Fumes*

This was a bit of a challenge. I basically designed and constructed a wet exhaust and adapted it to the unit. Sea water is pumped through a seacock and strainer and sprayed into a copper-constructed mixing chamber. Exhaust gases are also led from the unit into the chamber using a flexible, galvanized aluminum exhaust hose wrapped with fiberglass mesh. Here, the sea water and exhaust gases mix. Dirty, warm water falls via gravity to the bottom of the chamber and out a through-hull, and heat and fumes are drawn off the top of the chamber using a high-volume blower and exiting through the stern.

*Gasoline Fumes*

My "wet exhaust" can be operated independently of the generator unit. I switch it on for a few minutes before powering it up and the blower removes any fumes. The blower and the sea-water pump are both sealed, ignition-protected devices.

*Non-Marinized Components*

This model Yamaha has an entirely aluminum frame. It seems to be suited to stand up against the elements. Since it's installed below deck (as is my old Perkins 4.108) I would expect it to hold up at least as well as the Perkins in a marine environment.

*Small Capacity Tank*

You can purchase an adapter for this unit that allows you to safely tap off of a larger tank.

*Carbon Monoxide Risk*

The unit is installed outside of the cabin air space. Nevertheless, I have TWO carbon monoxide alarms in the cabin.

*Running a 130000 BTU Air Conditioner.*

I have a Flagship Marine 13,000 BTU air conditioner with a rotary compressor. This generator EASILY starts it and runs at about 1/2 of it's rated load to power it continuously.

I have ocean tested this setup countless times this past season trying to find a problem with it. Rough seas, HOT weather, heeled over, etc, etc. It refuses to fail. As a bonus, I can remove the unit in 15 minutes using a wrench and a screwdriver if I ever needed it ashore. One downside is it probably wouldn't pass inspection for insurance purposes. Total Cost? $1500 and a few weekends of work.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

JohnRPollard said:


> You and I have had this debate before, and I think we agreed to disagree. Which is fine. I also acknowledge that many cruisers are using portable gas gensets. I just don't want an inexperienced reader of this thread to draw the wrong conclusions for lack of sufficient information.


I believe that with a modicum of caution (only use on deck, well lashed, in places where the wind will blow the exhaust off the boat).

In addition, if used on the foredeck, make sure all hatches and dorades are closed off if being used.

Make sure all CO detectors are in working order.

Never run unattended or unsecured.

Basically, think of them like gas mowers on your deck, and think of the precautions you would take in such a circumstance.


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## erps (Aug 2, 2006)

just a matter of time until the C.G. recommends that outboards not be used on fishing boats because someone got sick while drinking beer and trolling for jellyfish because of the station-wagon effect of all that CO being backwinded under the canvas cover.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

Valiente,

I agree with both you and K1VSK that some folks have the experience, foresight, and presence of mind to use these carefully and without incident. Personally, I wouldn't trust myself -- but I'm a bit of a nimrod. Recognizing this shortcoming in myself, I default to the recommendation of experts. I could not live with the consequences if a careless or even unrecognized oversight on my part jeopardized the health or life of a family member -- particularly after being forewarned.

If folks choose to run their AC off these while sleeping sealed up below decks, that is a risk they choose to take. But if you are rafted with other boats that don't have AC, remember that their hatches and ports are likely to be open and the CO could pose a threat to them on a still night or if they end-up downwind of the exhaust.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

If I were going to use a genset... I'd set it up on the leeward ama deck. That would minimize any risk of fumes—either gasoline or CO—collecting in any real quantity.. of course, the guys with only half or third of a boat don't have this option.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

If you have a strong wind, you can still get gassed. I wonder how many people have set the generator up on their transom?? Sounds right, huh? Boat is always pointing into the wind. But if you have a ddger, can't that create a vacuum and pull the CO back down below?? 

I know when we are motoring into a strong wind and the dodger is up, we get a lot of dieself fumes into the cockpit. Seems very likely that a generator would do the same thing on the transom or in the cockpit.

People use gas generators all the time. If you go into a LA anchorage, many of the boats there have gas generators. I think a diesel is better - for the many reasons I have listed above. However, it has a considerably higher cost. But if that is all you have budgeted/can afford, you will make do.

- CD


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

CD-

If the genset was out on the ama... getting gassed is very unlikely, since it is considerably lower than the rest of the boat and about 7' out to the side of any possible openings.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

I am not doing a very good job at describing this (and not sure my picture is any better), but here is what I am saying:

It seems to me that when the wind blows strongly across a dodger (Especially with a bimini) it acts like an airfoil in that it creates a negative pressure inside of it. That in turn pulls the air from behind. Depending on how strong the wind is blowing and how close the generator is, you can suck the fumes backwards into the boat... much like a sail pulls your boat through the wind.

Here is my crappy illustration to show what I am talking about:










Not all of it is sucked back down below, but some of it will be and it could accumulate over time.

Think about when you are motoring into a stron headwind and you are gettin gassed out from your main diesel. It would seem to be the same principle to me.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

That's the stationwagon effect - which could occur atwartships when at rest with a beam wind.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

JohnRPollard said:


> If folks choose to run their AC off these while sleeping sealed up below decks, that is a risk they choose to take. But if you are rafted with other boats that don't have AC, remember that their hatches and ports are likely to be open and the CO could pose a threat o them on a still night or if they end-up downwind of the exhaust.


I understand and share your concern: we are proposing ocean cruising with a child. But we also don't plan to use the gas generator to run A/C, and certainly not to leave the thing running while we sleep, any more than I would leave a car running in a garage while I dreamt.


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## HerbDB (Sep 30, 2000)

I agree with the last post. I have a diesel genset on our boat. We are currently cruising in the Bahamas. We run it morning and evening to keep the batteries charged particularly if we are not moving.

I like doing this around dinner time, because it allows us to get a little ice from the portable ice maker and to use the microwave for meal preparation.

An added benefit is that we can run the AC to keep the cabin from heating up when using the stove. I think it is a great addition to any sailboat that has the room.

Herb DuBois
on Split Decision currently in Marsh Harbor, Abacos


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Doug...I have long been supporter of the Honda2000 for part time cruising needs. If you are really planning extended, on the hook cruising and have a big battery bank and enough room...I would strongly recommend a real diesel genset as an addition unless you are going to outfit with sufficient solar and wind to meet your daily needs. A real diesel genset with sufficient capacity makes living aboard so much nicer with no worries and minimal noise. 
Of course...everything is budget...but I can think of a lot of things I would trade off for a genset in the bahamas.


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## peteramc (Jan 7, 2008)

I just purchased a honda2000. It gives me peace of mind knowing that I can use it to charge my batteries if i need them to start up the motor. having a large crew on board on an over night trip uses many lights on deck and below, and between the radio playing and the water pressure working, its a major drain, I have 2 banks with bank 1 being 2 large golf cart batteries and the 2nd bank being a group of 6 6 volt batteries and a 12 volt car battery for a booster used for starting. This was all setup when I bought this boat. it works well but I still have that thought in my mind at night that too many lights are on...


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## artbyjody (Jan 4, 2008)

I have used the Honda 2000EU for years, as it works with the RV, sailing, as well when I loose power at the house - it can run the entertainment center, a light or two, as well as the coffee maker (its Seattle)... the best part is though the variable speed... literally a 2 gallon tank can last 6 hours. Like anything and I agree with the moderator - ventilation is always the key. Diesels still can produce toxic gases as well, (while it has never been reported that someone killed themselves hooking a exhaust hose from a Diesel F-350, the exhaust can make you dizzy and disoriented)...

One should always take care there is proper ventilation wherever any generator is used...running the blower (on your boat) while running a genset should always be recommended to begin with....if not to exhaust the heat but if there are issues with down drafts etc - you can get them out - and if you are running the gennie - then why not the blower...


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## hylas49 (Jan 12, 2008)

My $ 0.02 worth.

The danger is real on the gas fume issue. Just watched a friend go to the hospital due to an issue like this a few weeks back. He got lucky, very lucky and escaped major injury.

Second to consider is the longterm usability and cost of the portable generator. Every boat I have seen that has a portable strapped to the deck ends up having horrible problems with it due to corrosion, both mechanical and electrical issues. The longterm cost of keeping up with the corrosion is a killer, remember as stolen from someone else... corrosion never sleeps.

Next with the portable units is a place to stow the unit when sailing, assuming the boat can move. Not many if any boats that elect to have a portable unit will have a proper place to stow the generator while underway. This seems to leave them strapped to the aft deck at best. Again these same boats are usually smaller and wetter than others thus again the unit is exposed to salt water and we introduce more problems.

If you can stow the unit properly comes the next question leading back to the safety issues. Once the unit goes below, or in a locker you have basically made a fuel locker out of the stowage area. Is it properly vented, are all ignition possibilities evaluated? These are just some of the questions.

Before purchasing a portable I would say to take a close look at some of the smaller diesel units. These will serve you better in the long run and cost you less per KWh over the life of the unit.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Yes, but you can't take even a "smaller" diesel unit to shore to trade an afternoon's worth of electric hole drilling for an isolated island's feast.

There are definitely trade offs, and I agree the danger is real of improper stowage, which is why I already have a place for my future gas genset to live: in the forepeak (no hawse pipe, so no water ingress), which is forward of a collision bulkhead. Putting it on deck would kill it in six months or less, just as you see rusted mountain bikes lashed to lifelines.


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## onestepcsy37 (Jan 13, 2008)

if you truly want to live on 12 volts, a honda eu 1000 and an automobile battery charger will do fine. we spent the spring in the bahamas on our 37 foot no frills cruiser and relied on that combination every day we were at anchor. ran for about two hours a day to keep the batteries up. only big drain is the adler barbour. the battery charger is a vector 35 amp unit i paid about sixty bucks for at walmart. it's also extremely quiet, will not gas you to death if you run it outdoors, is VERY reliable, and is miserly on fuel. i used about two quarts a day. but you'll have to forego the air conditioning....


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

I want a EU2000 so I can run an angle grinder on deck without running the inverter. My philosophy of boat systems is to put in a lot of infrastructure in the form of large battery banks scrupulously maintained so that I have the cushion to run the fridge and the SSB for a week on a cloudy, calm mooring without having to run the diesel. The EU 2000 (or something like it) is part of the plan. 

Something that I thought of only recently is the fact that I can have a separate deep cycle in the forepeak for the anchor windlass only that can be charged by the gas generator. This means I won't have to tear the cabin apart to tie in a second charger forward (via lots of expensive copper). 

The backup to that is a portable solar panel trickle-charging the windlass battery, keeping it amp-rich.


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## dafrogtoad (Oct 11, 2000)

My 2c
I am a contractor as well as a sailor. I have used several gensets for work over the years and nothing I have used has approached the EU2K for reliability. I do hard dirty work w/various power items and have never had any trouble w/it as long as I took care of it.
I also use it on the boat (Van De Stadt 33) I am one of those who has a small A/C in the compainionway drop boards and i have the gen sitting on the lazarette hatch. The noise level of the gen is VERY low. Less than the noise of an idling car at 30 feet. Below, I know it's running, but it's not disturbing. A lot less than the average 12v fan.
I get all the charging I need for my 2 group 32 batteries, can run lights, stereo and get CLEAN power for a laptop. It runs for 5-6 hours on a tank of gas. The only gear I added to the boat was a second 1 gal portable tank to go with the one i already carried for the O/B.
Do I like it..oh yeah. Does it have a down side? Only one that i can think of. These things run long on a small bit of gas, so running it "dry" after use is a pain. A quick trip to the dealer solved the problem. Evidently Honda neglected to state in the manual that the have a carb drain inside one of the access panels. You do drop a bit of gas, but it keeps you from having any problems with bad gas sitting in the carb.
I only wish honda made one of these specifically FOR marine use.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Dafrogtoad-

Might be worth writing to Honda about.. and mentioning that many are using the Honda EU1000/2000 generators for this purpose already, but would prefer a marinized unit.


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## dafrogtoad (Oct 11, 2000)

I talked to the dealer, he said he heard something, but it was concerning diesel, not gas. Knowing Honda, they're listening, but will likely go diesel. That would probably put it out of pocket range for me.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I have a Honda 2000 but can't get it to work with my MS2000 Xantrex. I am plugging it into shore power and I get a voltage reading on my control panel but no amps. Any ideas?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Keith-

You'd really be much better off starting a new thread on this rather than hijacking this thread. Also, you might want to read this *post* to get the most out of your time on sailinet.

BTW, more details would be useful.


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## k1vsk (Jul 16, 2001)

or their engine, or their music or TV, or their dinghy motor, or their dog barking, or their diesel or gas genset...

It's important to recognize there is a difference between obnoxious people and those who use a genset during the time(s) of the day others generally do the same so as to ensure no one is disturbed. I'd venture to say there are far more obnoxious forms of behavior we all routinely see and/or hear.


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## artbyjody (Jan 4, 2008)

keithpt said:


> I have a Honda 2000 but can't get it to work with my MS2000 Xantrex. I am plugging it into shore power and I get a voltage reading on my control panel but no amps. Any ideas?


It will end up being a grounding issue. The Honda Gen operates on what is less than adequately described as a floating ground - it actually has none of any substantial value. If your Xantrex is not operating properly under the Generator operation - you may want to investigate where the grounding is occurring with the charger...It is actually a common issue with gensets in general...as the charger unit is looked at as only a AC device... and usually grounding utilizes existing AC inputs (ie - shore power)... a grounding of the unit to the engine or other suitable ground onboard may relieve you of the issue...


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## peikenberry (Apr 26, 2000)

Probably far too late to join in on this thread but I have a pdf file on this very subject, along with a lot of related links on using portable gensets on boats. http://newboatbuilders.com/docs/portable.pdf

Being recently retired from the USCG Office of Boating Safety I agree with the ABYC and USCG stance on using portables and the CO problem. However I was the maverick. As has been said here, even though diesel does not produce anywhere near the CO a gas engine does, the problem is not how much is emitted. The problem is how much collects and is concentrated in a confined space. If you are running your diesel genset overnight to keep the AC on, and the AC is sucking in the exhaust, after 8 hours with out adequate ventilation, you will still get enough CO to cause a problem. But then I have not been able to convince ABYC or my superiors at CGHQ of this. I agree there is not statistical evidence. There is empirical evidence but this isn't enough to change people's minds .


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## thekeip (Aug 8, 2007)

If I were to buy a Honda, Yamaha, or any other 2kw+ generator, and I KNEW beforehand that I was going to use it to power a charger, I would immediately go to my nearest Sears store and buy a 'motor-run' capacitor (~50mfd, 370vac, for you tech oriented folks) and I'd plug it into one of the available outlet positions on my generator's AC panel, to be used whenever I wanted to operate the charger. That's why I'd put a removable plug on the cap.
It makes BIG difference.
Howard Keiper
Sea Quest
Berkeley


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

thekeip said:


> If I were to buy a Honda, Yamaha, or any other 2kw+ generator, and I KNEW beforehand that I was going to use it to power a charger, I would immediately go to my nearest Sears store and buy a 'motor-run' capacitor (~50mfd, 370vac, for you tech oriented folks) and I'd plug it into one of the available outlet positions on my generator's AC panel, to be used whenever I wanted to operate the charger. That's why I'd put a removable plug on the cap.
> It makes BIG difference.


??? 

That is sooo not a good idea. People get killed that way.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

As I am expecting my Honda 2000 to be delivered this week, I will follow this with interest.

I don't expect to be using it for charging the main bank, nor for energizing the charger. I expect to be using it to run power tools on deck or if I want to run a vacuum on a cloudy, but not rainy day, or to run a compressor for dive tanks, or external lights, and so on. It's an exterior, fair-weather, at anchor way to supply power that leaves the main banks, charged by solar and wind, to handle interior lights, comms and keeping the beer cold...all priorities.

On a steel boat, it is nice to run washers, sprayers, grinders, etc. without tapping into main ship's power or to have to plug in to shore power.

I will make whatever arrangements are necessary to use it as a tertiary power source should both alternators, four solar panels, the wind gen and the inverter/charger all go to hell. But that's not hugely likely.


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## Sasha_V (Feb 28, 2004)

I would buy a portable DIESEL genset. I would arange a support cradle and a simple way to plumb it into the fuel and exhaust system, so that it can quickly be adapted back to being an independent module. It also makes it much eaier and cheaper to get it serviced or repaired. Stay away from Panda, but Nissan and hyundi have some lovely and fairly cheap diesel gensets (often sold under many different brand badges).

Oversize is better

Sasha


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## artbyjody (Jan 4, 2008)

Valiente said:


> As I am expecting my Honda 2000 to be delivered this week, I will follow this with interest.
> 
> I don't expect to be using it for charging the main bank, nor for energizing the charger. I expect to be using it to run power tools on deck or if I want to run a vacuum on a cloudy, but not rainy day, or to run a compressor for dive tanks, or external lights, and so on. It's an exterior, fair-weather, at anchor way to supply power that leaves the main banks, charged by solar and wind, to handle interior lights, comms and keeping the beer cold...all priorities.
> 
> ...


You'll find it was a wise investment...takes a bit more to make it sea worthy for charging vs the RV usage... but at $600 (avg investment) a decent choice...


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## thekeip (Aug 8, 2007)

I'm curious to know why plugging a capacitor into the generator's output when connecting to a charger is such a bad idea. It's the tried and true way to (temporarily) correct the power factor problem. That gives you a large percentage of your generator back for that particular application.
Howard Keiper
Sea Quest
Berkeley


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

thekeip said:


> I'm curious to know why plugging a capacitor into the generator's output when connecting to a charger is such a bad idea. It's the tried and true way to (temporarily) correct the power factor problem. That gives you a large percentage of your generator back for that particular application.


Howard, off-the-shelf power factor correction (PFC) systems also include rather complex safety gear to protect the generator, the attached equipment and people using it should the power factor go outside a specified range.

Most gen-sets (and the equipment attached to them, including battery chargers) are designed for loads of between 0.7 and 0.9 inductive. If the power factor was to go too far negative, you risk overheating the generator windings (causing a fire) and adding lots of high-frequency harmonics into the power system.

I must admit I have never heard of anyone adding PFC to a small gen-set.. but I would have thought it was more trouble than it is worth, since you are not gaining any significant amount of power worth worrying about.


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

These small EU2000 gens have a decent amount of DC output. How can that be utilized for battery charging? Assuming the boat already has some sort of 'traditional' battery charging system and a decent sized house bank.


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## artbyjody (Jan 4, 2008)

btrayfors said:


> Many cruisers successfully use portable Honda generators, but you have to be VERY careful (gasoline and, especially, carbon monoxide fumes).
> 
> For your boat, don't bother with the 1000; you need the 2000. It will run up to a 75A charger, and that's what you need at a minimum for your 6 golf-carts.
> 
> ...


Also note that the Honda 2000 EU generators can be rigged in parallel...providing expansion (the 1000 series can not)... For those wondering how much they run - typically $600 from most suppliers...The parallel kit cables run about $120... The fuel capacity is about 2 gallons but due to the variable load characteristics that 2 gallons can run the gen for 12 hours easily ... They are however, not handy for using while sailing as they shut down when tilted at about 15 degrees... They are also incredibly quiet (42 decibels) and do suffer a bit of abuse - I have left mine outside for 6 months at a time in the weather - starts up every time...usually if you have a problem it is as simple as just replacing the sparkplug...

just additional thoughts...


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Thanks for the reassurance. I haven't encountered a diesel genset my five-foot-tall wife could lug, nor one with the dimensions that meant I could stow it securely in a pilothouse locker.


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

The Honda set looks pretty hard to beat, but if you are going to purchase a portable gen-set, be aware that the weight listed in manufacturer's spec is usually the "dry weight" - as in, no fuel.

Depending upon how they're made (in Taiwan or by peasants in Outer Mongolia), some gen-sets on the market aren't designed to be carried with fuel in them.


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## artbyjody (Jan 4, 2008)

Hartley18 said:


> The Honda set looks pretty hard to beat, but if you are going to purchase a portable gen-set, be aware that the weight listed in manufacturer's spec is usually the "dry weight" - as in, no fuel.
> 
> Depending upon how they're made (in Taiwan or by peasants in Outer Mongolia), some gen-sets on the market aren't designed to be carried with fuel in them.


The two gallons capacity of the honda adds maybe 12-16 lbs to the weight overall (dry weight is 46.3 lbs brings it to maybe 55-60 lbs max...) and can be transported with fuel in them without worries of leakage or other adverse effects....

Also note that one can replace the fuel cap with a similar one used for outboard gas tanks and thus tap into the main fuel tank using a t-connection. The honda fuel system does use vacuum pressure and can tolerate a draw of a few feet if you design it like you would a outboard drawing off the main tanks versus a portable tank...a related link to the latter part is here (click):


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

While I will not say this setup is ABYC or USCG approved, it is what one fellow did to a new Jeanneau 39i in England with an EU2000 Honda. This may be legal if you will there, will not comment about here either, as I do no know, but appears to be a good option, assuming one might also have a blower in the area too. As many boats have had gas motors to propel them in the past, so some of these issues should be factorable in how one uses an enclosed gas generator also. 
jeanneau owners network - Honda Generator

As far as Honda's go, I have an EB3500 I have had since 92, ie before the inverter style came out, use it at work, also a contractor like dafrog, along with 12 winters at local ski areas charging the batteries for the RV trailer I had. Until the last yr, when some how the charger part went haywire, it usually only took spark plugs to solve non start issues.

That is all I will say on this, if I personally needed a genset of some sort for my boat, EU1000 or equal sized generator would be in the under cockpit seat storage area for transport, and in the cockpit or equal for useage! Then like a lot of things, one has to take the good with the bad, weigh the options for what one does, and run from there, not looking back! i would also buy another EB3500 or IRC an EB3700 is the new model vs an EU series. As it is all of 10DB louder, has wheels and handles to move it from place to place easy. Then, i use this generator differently than most of you would on a boat, hence why I would get an EU1000 for the boat!

marty


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

There are some serious problems with permanently mounting a Honda Gasoline generator inside the boat. 

First, they're not marinized, so corrosion can set in and start a fire in them. 

Second, the fuel lines in the generator aren't marine grade or fire-resistant, as would probably be required by ABYC code. 

Third, they're not ignition protected, so if you were to accidentally start one with gasoline fumes or propane around, it would probably be the last time you did so. 

Fourth, they're not designed to be vented via an external exhaust line, so you'd need to cobble up an external exhaust for it or suffer CO poisoning.


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## artbyjody (Jan 4, 2008)

sailingdog said:


> There are some serious problems with permanently mounting a Honda Gasoline generator inside the boat.


First, they're not marinized, so corrosion can set in and start a fire in them.


They are more ruggedly built than most and not everything has to has a "marine" tag on it. Corrosion as a factor - is not going to start a fire - it will merely not make the unit work. While there is a slim chance - there is no more a chance of one catching fire on a boat than sitting outside on a deck on the back of a home or rv...
 Second, the fuel lines in the generator aren't marine grade or fire-resistant, as would probably be required by ABYC code.


Its not ABYC graded equipment either - and very few if any reports of them catching on fire exists to begin with. I own one and use it - its done well over the last 4 years....But they do use fuel grade lines...if one was to gander into the actual specs of the fuel line - not much if any difference would be had....and the fuel line itself is less than 6 inches...
Third, they're not ignition protected, so if you were to accidentally start one with gasoline fumes or propane around, it would probably be the last time you did so.


Common sense would have to apply here... If it is properly being operated topside - very minimal if any risks involved. If used internally one would hope that the same ventilation techniques required for inboards would be used with having it below decks.
Fourth, they're not designed to be vented via an external exhaust line, so you'd need to cobble up an external exhaust for it or suffer CO poisoning.


If one does put it below decks then they need to have the proper ventilation / blower system and enclose it the same way that propane tanks are required to be stowed in....All in all - for a less than 1K solution that most likely is used as a weekender aux when gunkholing... there is nothing really more dangerous using one than anything else installed onboard - if common sense is utilized and following the manufacturer's recommendations...


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

Don't forget about cooling. These things need plenty of airflow to prevent overheating. 

A client of ours wanted a small set they could safely install in a switchroom (ie. indoors) and after looking at all the alternatives the best option we found was a Caterpillar Olympian GEP11SP.

At 11kVA it's probably a bit big for most (it was a bit big for our needs also), and weighs a heap, but it was the smallest set we could find where the controls, fuel system, radiator and exhaust can be all be mounted externally to the unit... and it's a *real* generator, not some little toy!


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## arghhh (Jun 28, 2004)

About the power factor correction. I know the newer Xantrex inverter/chargers have built in power factor correction so adding a PF capacitor would make the problem worse instead of better.

The MS series boasts: 0.95 power factor corrected multi-stage charger for fast, efficient charging.


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## thekeip (Aug 8, 2007)

Not to pic a nit, Xantrex published one of their Tech Notes (number 14) titled "Displaced Power Factor Correction". It's a good read for those interested.
Howard Keiper
Sea Quest
Berkeley


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## thekeip (Aug 8, 2007)

I neglected to post the appropriate url for the Xantrex article. Here it is:
http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/735/docserve.asp

Howard Keiper


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## thekeip (Aug 8, 2007)

I think there is some confusion about the pf correction spec mentioned previously. To say that such and such inverter / charger is power factor corrected to 0.95 implies that IT corrects for the load IT sees, not the load it presents. Different animal altogether.
Howard 
Sea Quest
Berkeley


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## Brezzin (Dec 4, 2006)

Valiente said:


> or to run a compressor for dive tanks,.


V- 
What compressor are you using? I thought most of them required a 30 amp source. But I never really looked that deep into it.


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## jr438234606 (Apr 25, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> There are some serious problems with permanently mounting a Honda Gasoline generator inside the boat.
> 
> First, they're not marinized, so corrosion can set in and start a fire in them.
> 
> ...


As mentioned in my previous post in this thread, I have installed a below-decks gasoline-powered Yamaha generator and have overcome all of the obstacles mentioned- and even some not mentioned. I've been very pleased with the setup.


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## k1vsk (Jul 16, 2001)

All of which goes to show that these perceived problems or nuisance issues are easily overcome with a little effort.


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

I think for me the bottom line comes down to three issues.

The Honda 2000eu provides all the power I need for air conditioning and other various things I'd not do from a inverter.

The Honda is portable, and at 50 pounds I can take it home and maintain it easily. Any diesel gen must be installed by a pro, maintained only onboard and weighs in at several hundred pounds (a real issue on a catamaran, any catamaran).

I can carry it in a lazerette locker that I already use to carry dinghy fuel, it is properly vented for propane and gasoline. I can run it from the back step next to my 30 amp shore connection and barely hear it in my cockpit 10 feet away.

Anybody that wants to fund me getting a over priced over sized, over weight, over complicated diesel contact me via PM and I'll tell them where to send money to.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Brezzin said:


> V-
> What compressor are you using? I thought most of them required a 30 amp source. But I never really looked that deep into it.


I am not using one as of yet, but I was under the impression that a 15 amp model could pressurize dive tanks at least for shorter, reef diving, as well as power the usual air tools.

As for the Honda 2000 "inside"...well, no, I wouldn't use it inside. I would use it under a fireproof awning with the breeze off the boat (or off all hatches, anyway), and lashed securely to the deck. At 45 pounds, you could, after all, lash it to the back stay and haul it eight feet off deck using the topping lift if you had a long and thick enough extension cord, although I wouldn't do this on anything but a calm day.

It's NOT a diesel genset, nor is it a replacement for one. It's a way to provide "spot" power for handtools plus 12 VDC in emergencies. While it's a weak charger, it's better than nothing and could get you to "limping home" mode, at least on the electrical side. Lastly, if you are alone in a lagoon, and you want to trade six hours of sawing and drilling for a roast pig and all the taro you can eat, it will go in a bag, into the dinghy and onto an otherwise electricity-free shore, ready to make nice with the locals.

That's all, but that's plenty. Being able to grind out rust spots and drill holes for tapping while at anchor WITHOUT using the inverter gives me flexibility and makes energy sense.

Even the idea that I could charge handheld devices when everything else is dead on the boat is a safety factor to me.


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## erps (Aug 2, 2006)

And you can take it to the beach to run the blender for the Margaritas


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## peikenberry (Apr 26, 2000)

I just want to add one more comment for those of you who use portable generators on your boat ( not on the dock or ashore). If you read your owners manual you will see that all of them say, "not for marine use" So what does that mean to you? It means that by using it on the boat you void the warranty. So should something go wrong with the unit, not even considering the really bad things that can go wrong, you are going to have to foot the bill yourself. So you'll just not tell them, right? Good luck. 
Here's my pdf on portable vs permanently installed again. http://newboatbuilders.com/docs/portable.pdf


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## k1vsk (Jul 16, 2001)

I jist pulled out my H2000 genset warranty docs and manual - neither has such an exclusion


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## jr438234606 (Apr 25, 2006)

peikenberry said:


> I just want to add one more comment for those of you who use portable generators on your boat ( not on the dock or ashore). If you read your owners manual you will see that all of them say, "not for marine use" So what does that mean to you? It means that by using it on the boat you void the warranty. So should something go wrong with the unit, not even considering the really bad things that can go wrong, you are going to have to foot the bill yourself. So you'll just not tell them, right? Good luck.
> Here's my pdf on portable vs permanently installed again. http://newboatbuilders.com/docs/portable.pdf


Dont Tell Me that I can't. Tell me how I can!


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## peikenberry (Apr 26, 2000)

K1vsk;

Thank you for your comment. Since then I have been surfing the net (amazing how many users manuals are available on the net) and going to various places that sell generators and reading the user manuals. You are absolutely right. It's not there. Sometime between about 2004 and now the manuals changed. I looked at no less than 6 different manufacturers of portable generators, and they all use the same wording in their user manuals. There must be a trade association or a standard society that puts the manual together and all the company has to do is change the names.

However, my 2004 Onan Generator has the following statement on the inside of the title page. And I checked Onan's new RV generators. They all still have this warning. It's also in their HomeSite Portables but not in the inverter generators manuals.










This warning was in every non-marine generator manual I have looked at for at least the last 20 years.

I don't know why they have taken this out. They still have warnings about using them indoors or in a confined space, or using them in a wet environment. [QUOTE
Do not operate in rain, in wet or damp conditions, or with wet hands.​The operator may suffer severe electric shock if the generator is wet due to rain or snow
][/QUOTE]
Of course this means I have to change the document on my web site as well.

I also intend to take this up at the next meeting of the American Boat and Yacht Council Electrical Committee. This warning really should be included.


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## artbyjody (Jan 4, 2008)

peikenberry said:


> I also intend to take this up at the next meeting of the American Boat and Yacht Council Electrical Committee. This warning really should be included.


The warning was probably removed because they have been used successfully in marine environments...it takes an act of god to remove warning labels to begin with as they are govt mandated for the most part. My Honda EU didn't come with one - I operate per instructions onboard my sailing vessel... it works...

Kinda confused here...or are you actually exhibiting that kind of influence because you can - that because it doesn't have an marine usage label (and subsequent price tag) on it - that therefore it shouldn't be used and condoned for such use... in which case - I would rather prefer you ask why these gens can not be used and report back actual reasons....not a personal attack ... just simply we have tons of usage reports and nary a "this happened because we used one" report...Kinda reminds me of the "do not use solder" per ABYC ... it works and can be as solid / long lasting as a crimp with the proper procedure...


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## PilotAlso (Nov 25, 2007)

*Kinda reminds me of the McDonalds coffee warning!*

Warning: this coffee may be hot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Could it cause burns? I guess it could.

Do millions of people operate their McDonalds coffee cups without incident every day. I'll go out on a limb and say yes!

Sometimes warning labels are there because someone did something incredibly silly and got hurt. Not because the device/product was inherently unsafe.


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## peikenberry (Apr 26, 2000)

Both of your comments are reasonable and well taken. And I don'tmake personal attacks. I try to base my reasons on good engineering practice. Actually most of the warning labels you see on boats or marine equipment are not government mandated. They are there, as PilotAlso said, because someone did something stupid, then blamed it on the manufacturer, successfully sued, and got a bundle of money. It's the old "failure to warn" syndrome. The MacDonald's coffee cup label is a case in point. My favorite example of "failure to warn" gone wild, is the guy who sued the National Park Service because he was struck by lightning while standing atop Half Dome in Yosemite. There is now a sign there that tells you that you can be struck by lightning. Anyway most of the labels you see now are required by insurance and various voluntary standards societies such as ABYC, SAE, NFPA and so on. A lot of them have been included in ISO standards as well. NMMA has a plethora of warning labels you must put on your boat to be NMMA certified. But the USCG requires only five labels, and on some boats, such as sailboats, none!, unless they have a gasoline inboard, which most do not have these days. (unless you bring that gasoline generator on board)

But I am not an attorney. I am an engineer. And even though I spent 25 years working for USCG in Boating Safety, I would agree that the labeling thing has really gotten out of hand! Have you looked at the labels on a PWC lately? Any way, as a member of the electrical PTC I can bring it up for discussion. The committee is not just old govt far** like me, but boatbuilders, people from the electrical industry and quite a few of the people who make generators. I will introduce it because I believe it is a legitimate safety issue, from the perspective of shock hazard, carbon monoxide hazard, and gasoline vapor hazards. I am sure it will result in a lively discussion. And since the standards are consensus standards, then whatever the majority thinks will become the standard. Also any concerned person can write ABYC and have their input. 

And no, there is not, as far as I know, any large body of data sitting out there to base this on. There have been carbon monoxide poisonings, and electrocutions, most not on boats, but as far as I know no fires or explosions. ( I do know of one fire, but the damn fool left the generator running in his closed up garage, sitting in the bed of his pickup truck)

Anyway, either way, they just went through a five year cycle on the electrical standard so if it was accepted, you wouldn't see them for another five years. Plus that, I am not sure that since these are portable generators, ABYC has any input anyway. But there must be an organization that does, such as NFPA or SAE. I will talk to the folks at Onan and see what they say.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

It is becoming increasingly difficult, due to litigation issues, to separate the "cover our ass/keep the morons alive" warnings from actual warnings one wouldn't necessarily be aware of, like "third rail is live!"

Sometimes I harbour evil thoughts about running the world, removing half the current warning labels and improving the species thereby by letting nature take its course...Backcountry skiing, PWC games of chicken, why, all of the Darwinian Sports could work their magic to make us a fractionally smarter bunch of primates.


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## Alden68 (Mar 21, 2007)

V - I like your new world.......nor more power boat wakes....nice.....


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

Peter
Sorry but it sounds like, to me, you are looking to drum up problems where there are none. You stated "And no, there is not, as far as I know, any large body of data sitting out there to base this on." 

Is this group you're involved with the same group that wants to mandate life jackets for all aboard at all times like in the USVI?

Sometimes doing nothing is the right thing to do.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

Can't afford a genset, or sufficent solar panels to be worthwhile, but, I can afford my Honda EU2000. Is it the best choice for alternate power? No, but it's what I can afford.


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

I think some are confusing what Peter is rightfully pointing out as potential hazards, which if observed, may allow for safe generator operation with what he feelsshould be a proper notification to the boating public.

How many of you are familiar with protected ignition sources or things like flame screens or spark arrestors? Not the majority I'll bet. The ABYC has to establish the standards for what is inherently safe. Those standards don't lend themselves well to, "but if you do this" you're ok. I'd say that he is merely being prudent in wanting to investigate why there are no marine warnings on the owner's manual. It's presence would certainly cause many of us to ask some questions, which would hopefully lead to some answers such as found here. Seems fair enough.

For the record, I've purchased a Yamaha portable that I intend to use on my boat.


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## peikenberry (Apr 26, 2000)

For those of you who aren't aware of ABYC, they are the industry standards org for the US boat manufacturing industry. Most boats built in the US are built to ABYC standards.They are not a government organization and their standards are voluntary. But a caveat; if a manufacturer gets sued, ABYC is the standard they will be held to in court, because they are the "accepted industry standard" as the lawyers would put it. Your sailboat may be designed to a rule like IYRU, but stuff that goes into the boat is built to ABYC standards. Unless your boat is built in Europe, then it's the RCD, much of which was adopted directly from ABYC. Or if from Canada built to Transport Canada Standards which were adopted mostly from ABYC, and so on. Even Australia uses ABYC standards. ABYC has even been negotiating with Chinese boat builders to get them to meet the ABYC standards. Oh yeah, if you get your boat surveyed. The surveyor uses ABYC standards, as does your insurance company. Try American Boat and Yacht Council (ABYC) - Welcome. Most boat manufacturers, manufacturers of boat equipment, surveyors, marine repairers, designers and naval architects are membersof ABYC.

Actually those of us at the USCG office of Boating Safety were active members, simply because it is better if the industry regulates itself. It saves me and you (the tax payers) a lot of bucks (and a lot o fwork), and keeps the govt from making a lot of laws. But even many surveyors don't understand the difference between ABYC and USCG regulations and will tell you, the Coast Guard requires it, when that ain't necessarily so. On a sailboat the Coast Guard only regulates if the boat has an inboard gas engine, then the fuel electrical and ventilation rules apply. A diesel powered sailboat or one without an engine has only to meet the navigation light regulations, and a Hull Id number. If you put in a toilet (not a portable toilet) then it has to be a USCG certified device but most people just use a holding tank. So other than canoes and kayaks, sailboats are the least regulated boats made in the US. They are actually regulated far more in Europe. France probably regulates sailboats more than any other country.

Anyway, I agree with many of you that alot of the warning labels seen today (especially the one on paper coffee cups ) are just plain stupid. Here's a page with some of the best. Things People Said: Warning Labels

My fav "Do not use orally." -- _On a toilet bowl cleaning brush_


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## artbyjody (Jan 4, 2008)

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. But as a regular "Joe".... these standards are voluntary yet in terms of legaleeze - used in the court of law. I have issue with the ABYC because very few of the documentations are available to the general public - and to get ABYC specs and regs, one pays a hefty price to do so. Most of the actual laws that govern us are available in public form and accessible at either the library or online. 

So here is the beef. ABYC passes something I think is silly - soldering not approved use crimps instead, yet there is no founding evidence on that period that either is better or worse. It is not like the general public has a say to weigh in on issues they state should be used (and for instance a electrical fire starts and part of the blaze destroys a soldered and heat shrinked connection...) lawyers, insurance come back and say - unapproved wiring, even though not cause of the fire, deny claim... I have an issue with this but because ABYC is the "authority" and there is no actual form of public protest as the public can't access the ABYC freely to begin with... almost like highway robbery to me...

And that is where I have issue with yet another "include warning".... because it will not stop there... and the only thing joe public gets is that its a ABYC requirement and not the reasons for nor exceptions when it can or can be used...


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Jody brings up a perfectly valid point. One perhaps that might justify someone starting a thread on it in the Construction and Design thread for a broader readership and exploration. I'd suggest a title of, "ABYC standards, the logic and meaning behind them". Or something that provokes a discussion of how individual standards were arrived upon.

Let me say first that I am not sure that his scenario that an insurance settlement would be denied because the boat's wiring did not meet ABYC code is valid. An ivestigation into the cause of a fire is generally focused on the cause of the fire. (!) If the fire was electrical it is generally not enough to say that the wiring did not meet code to assign causality but specifically what portion of the wiring failed, and why, resulting in the fire. It would be difficult to blame a fire on soldered joints if the actual cause was short circuiting within the battery. Or the turkey fryer tipped over in the cockpit for that matter.

A good measure of most codes consists of good old common sense. I will issue a caveat that there is always a tendency among certain regulators to assign one "right way" to do things. This is almost never the case in practise. It also tends to lead to an attitude that if things meet code they are inherently safe. We know from recent carbon monoxide deaths around boats that this is not true either and probably has never been true. And that's part of the reason we get to those ubiquitous stickers and notices. Would anyone be seriously surprised to purchase a brand new boat and find a sticker on it proclaiming, do not place in water without proper training?

The advantage of sailnet is that it presents a wide array of options in sailboat maintenance and repair. Some aren't worth a tinker's damn while others can only be classified in the "Oh wow" category or "why didn't I think of that" or more commonly, "so that's how they do that". It's still up to the beholder to determine what makes sense for them. We're not constrained as the ABYC is to come up with practises that fit all boats in all situations.

I'll also agree with Jody in that there is no source for the why's and wherefore's of the code and which parts are really important and which part's you might give less weight. That's probably actually good in that, if you're planning on doing things in a non-code manner you're probably more likely to research them more thoroughly before you proceed. There's probably nothing wrong with soldering your connections in 98% of the cases and you probably don't have to run your wiring in conduit like I did either. Neither are "code".

I used to dive with a guy who made his first dive using an old fire extiguisher for a tank. He soon graduated to a pilfered bottle from his grandfathers welding shop. He did it and he did it without injury. i'm not going to go out of my way to condemn it because I know that a resonably bright person can come up with countless similar ideas to achieve something. But Iwouldn't recommend it to a novice, especially one that I only know from the internet. And that is a bit of the conundrum we face on sailnet. There are many ways to make a long splice. In describing them to you, at what point do I become liable for either propagating false information or for giving you information you are not equipped to handle without risking injury?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Local fire department says so. It becomes code. Don't conform to code...pay fine. Argue with elected officials...they refer to the fire department that proposed the rule. No change...

I have way too many people who are trying hard to protect me from the idiots I have to watch out for every day.

The original post was in November...I hope the guy made his decision my now.

I'm buying a Honda 2000..I'll use it safely, take all the precautions, and pray after making the world safe...I don't get killed by a sea-ray.


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## peikenberry (Apr 26, 2000)

Sailaway, I wouldn't be surprised to see that label. In Connecticut you must (it's state law) take a short course to operate a PWC. I suppose if and when we get enough people on the water that will get extended to other types of boats. About half the states now require some sort of boating education. It's grandfathered in many states for us old folks but I went and got the card anyway.

The ABYC requirement on connectors is misunderstood. They do not require you to solder or not solder. The standard says:

11.16.3.7. Solder shall not be the sole means of
mechanical connection in any circuit. If soldered, the
connection shall be so located or supported as to
minimize flexing of the conductor where the solder​changes the flexible conductor into a solid conductor

I have found that interpreting the standards as some times the hardest part. When people would call us and ask if a regulation meant thus and so we use to say, "you're hired.Anyone who can read the regs and interpret them correctly should be working for the government!"

It's often the same way with all standards. At least in the US they are all written by committees. I'm sure you have all heard the old joke about an elephant being a mouse designed by a committee. Too much time is spent word smithing these things so the lawyers won't have field day with them.

Any way, you don't have to solder, or you can solder. If you solder then there must be some other means of supporting the wire in addition to the solder. This is so the hard spot where the solder is doesn't have all the stress concentrated on it.

Yes I agree the standards ain't cheap. My yearly membership and fee for online access takes a big chunk out of my retired pay. But online access is better than having them send a book or a CD because they online stuff is always up to date. But it isn't just ABYC, all the standards orgs charge. SAE, NFPA, ISO, NMEA, UL, (what an alphabet soup) the RCD and so on. But that's because they are non-profits, and the only income they have is membership fees, donations, and selling publications. Pluss the get grants from the government to do projects for the public. Only the government gives it away because if it's the law you have to publish it because the public has a right to know.

If you have a beef with a standard, then by all means write to them. American Boat and Yacht Council (ABYC) - Welcome I have seen the committees spend many hours considering input from people who are not members. When they say public comment they mean just that. There are a number of what are called "public members"; like myself who don't have some company or job to pay for travel and lodging to go to meetings. But ABYC is given a grant from the USCG every year to cover public member travel. The only catch, you have to be a member.

Your comment about one "right way" is certainly apt. That's why we (USCG) always tried to write performance standards, as opposed to technical standards. A technical standard tells you it must be done this way. A performance standard says, do it however, but it must perform a certain way. For instance in O/B monohul boats under 20 feet they must float level when swamped. No where in the regs does it say how to achieve this.

It's the same way with most standards. But there are some things you just have to say do it this way. A lot of this stuff has been around for years. Much of it started back in the 50's when people were dieing in boats at a rate of about 1300 a year, and there were a lot less boats then. It's down to about 600 a year now. I have a couple of news Alerts sent to my email every day on boating accidents. About 2 fatalities a day on average. Hardly any of those in sailboats though. Which is good news for those at sailnet. Here's my Blog where I post some of them. New Boat Builders Home Page - Boating Safety Blog And that's just in the US. A lot of these are senseless. CO Poisonings, boats colliding, fires. Actually fatalities from fires have dropped dramatically over the last 20 years. About 10-12 a year compared to 100 20 years ago. Now people just kill them selves by running their boats into things.

Anyway. That's depressing. I should never have sold my Thistle! I could be out sailing.


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## tjaldur (Mar 1, 2008)

As I live a board a wooden ship and live tied to a mooring, I need a power-supply. Mainly to power a variety of grinding tools and saws that use between 500 - 1500 watts , but also for heating water 700 watt. Then the need to charges the batteries to run PC and TV through a sinus inverter and all the rest for 12 Volt DC, like refrigerator, freshwater pump, bilge pump, saltwater pump, diesel-heater etc.


Just these days I have upgraded from a 2,5 KW gasoline generator to a 3,5 KW diesel-generator. Both air-cooled. The main reason being that I was very uncomfortable with storing a large amount of gasoline onboard. The amount was large because I am also lazy and don't want to row and walk to the gas-station each and every day to collect a small amount of gas. So I had four jerrycans with gasoline on the deck. With the diesel-generator I just pump into a can the amount of diesel that I need to fill the generator. 

The other reason was that I needed a bigger output to able to run the water-heater, the battery-charger and the power-tools simultaneously and not sequencely as was necessary with the biggest grinding-tools with only 2,5 KW output. Power-tools uses a lot of current when starting. 

And the new generator comes with an electric starter, what divine relief. No longer needing to fight with an unwilling recoil starter is major improvement on my life quality


(off topic, I must admit that I use an online device for spelling control, but it inserts hyphens all over my text, do you always use hyphens in all these words in English?)


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Tjal-dur w-hat ar-e yo-u tal-kin-g a-bou-t-?


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## badsanta (Oct 16, 2006)

Dunlookn said:


> Local fire department says so. It becomes code. Don't conform to code...pay fine. Argue with elected officials...they refer to the fire department that proposed the rule. No change...
> 
> I have way too many people who are trying hard to protect me from the idiots I have to watch out for every day.
> 
> ...


Most cities and towns don't have the resources to write there own codes. What most all places do is adopt and pass accepted codes.
National building codes and National Fire protection Association (NFPA)

NMEA and ABYC for boats


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

tjaldur said:


> (off topic, I must admit that I use an online device for spelling control, but it inserts hyphens all over my text, do you always use hyphens in all these words in English?)


No. Hyphens are not common, but are used to distinguish when nouns are compound, or when compound nouns are used as adjectival phrases.

"I own many power tools. I have to be good at _power-tool_ maintenance."

In the above example, _power _is the adjective to the noun _tool_, but in the second sentence, the hyphen is preferred because the combination of _power _and _tool _modify the noun _maintenance_.

Commas come into play when a series of adjectival phrases modify a noun:

"I own a large selection of professional-grade, dual-voltage, easy-to-carry power tools."

While technically correct, such a sentence in English is bordering on confusing, and making English confusing is the source of much comedy in the English-speaking countries.

I think your software is too enthusiastic. Good luck with your brand-new, diesel-fired generator.


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## tjaldur (Mar 1, 2008)

Valiente:

Thank you for the clarification.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

tjaldur said:


> Just these days I have upgraded from a 2,5 KW gasoline generator to a 3,5 KW diesel-generator. Both air-cooled.


I would be interrested in the details of this upgrade. Cost, model, size, weight, placement challenges etc.


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## tjaldur (Mar 1, 2008)

I'll be glad to supply details. Now one challenge applies two both generators. They were inexpensive. That means that one cannot expect them two be stable, that is deliver a proper 50HZ (60Hz) sinus alternate current. If one chooses an inexpensive generator one must on the other hand have a charger that accepts varying tension (volt) output and a modified sinus curve. And one need a pure sinus-curve inverter that delivers pure sinus wave current to delicate application like computer, TV etc.

One other challenge is that this diesel-generator is quite noisy. So I had do some work two reduce the noise. That is put on suspenders, like the ones one is using on an engine, and I had to improvise a muffler. The dimensions of the tube of the exhaust terminal of the generator do not fit with any standard dimension for tubes, so I had to join an aluminium exhaust-tube into the inside of the diesel-exhaust-tube and fasten it together by cutting open a beer-can as a sheet and roll it around the joint and fasten it with tube clamps. (Like we did in the -60ties with cars when a hole appeared in the exhaust outlet )

Hope this is illustrating:










The price was equivalent to about $ 1500. It came with an electric starter by the way, which is very good for me. That is recommended. A recoil starter on a diesel engine may be a challenge one wants to pass.

The weight is about 70 kg. (150 lbs), so it is wise to make a final decision of where one wants to place it. It really is a little monster to lug about. I have placed it on the aft deck.

Rated frequency (Hz)50 & 60
Rated voltage (V) 110, 220, 230, 110/220, 120/240 
Rated current (A) 12.2 13.8/27.5
Rated output power (KW)2.8K(50HZ),3.0KW 
Peak output Power(KW) 3.0KW(50HZ),3.3KW(60HZ)
Rated rotation speed (rpm)3000 3600
DC output 12V8.3A
Power factor (cosf) 1.0/0.8
Phase number Single phase
Noise level [dB(A)@7m] 70-74
Overall dimension (L×M×H)[mm(in)]: 695×475×590 (27.36×18.70×23.23)
Dry weight [kg(lbs.)] : 65(143)
Structure type : Open-frame type
Coupling mode :Rigid couping by royor drive shalf 
Engine type :Single cylinder,4-stroke,air-cooled,
direct injection,diesel engine
Displacemen [ml] 296
Compression ratio 20:1
Engine Rated power [KW(Hp)/rpm]: 2.8/3000 3.3/3600 
Starting system CL:recoil starter E:electric starter
Rotation dircetion (View from flywheel) :Clockwise
Fule : 0#(summer)-10#(winter) light diesel oil: SAE10W30 (above CC grade) 
Carton dimension:680*455*545mm 
N.W/G.W:70/73KG

Hope this answers your questions?


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## jr438234606 (Apr 25, 2006)

tjaldur, where do you keep that generator? On deck? And, where does the improvised "muffler" terminate?


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## tjaldur (Mar 1, 2008)

The generator is kept on the aft deck. Since I am tied to a mooring the generator will always be on lo-warts (wind side) That means the noise and fumes blow away from me.

The muffler ends outside the boat just above the waterline. It won't do to put the muffler into the water as that would be disastrous to the compression of the engine.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Be aware that some boats will suffer the "Station Wagon" effect, and even if the generator or genset is on the leeward side, the fumes may be pulled back into the boat. This can lead to carbon monoxide poisoning. YMMV. Get a good CO detector, since CO poisoning will kill you.

Tjaldur-

I hope you have a CO detector aboard, since that beer can modification seems likely to leak CO gas.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

tjaldur 
Thanks for the details. Did I miss the mfr and model. Want to see if they are available here.


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## RXBOT (Sep 7, 2007)

*Diesel 3500 watt air cooled portable*

Found above @ BOSSTOOLS a Canadian site, weighs 70 kilos (150 pounds). Has electric start,12.5 litre tank,85 db @ 7 meters, one year warranty,$1150 Canadian. P-3 Portable Power Pack. Don't know anything about make or seller but jnteresting site.


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