# Couple of rules questions



## Wade (Feb 17, 2021)

Hi all,

I only race occasionally as crew and only in "friendly" races. The past race for open class cabin boats another sailboat made a couple of actions that I am left wondering about just for my own edification.

(1) Race start times were staggered. We were supposed to start 2 minutes in front of boat X. Boat X came up beside us some distance from the mark and we were both on a starboard tack. We were leeward. They were close enough to prevent us from tacking and so we were pushed off the mark by a minute. 

(2) Boat X, toward the end of the race, approached us as we were on a starboard tack and they were port. They crossed our bow, but we had to veer of slightly out of caution, but would likely not have hit them. Couple feet. They proceeded to tack and then push us farther up then we wanted.

I am guessing (2) is aggressive but not illegal, but that (1) is not allowed. Just want to hear from more experienced racers.


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## cb32863 (Oct 5, 2009)

Situation 1, you needed to hail and say "room to tack!". Say it loud so they can hear, multiple times if necessary. As the leward boat of two boats on the same tack you had right of way. There is a question as to when they got along side you but, overtaking vessels, no matter what, must give way to the vessel being overtaken. I would highly suggest you read the Racing Rules of Sailing. Doesn't matter if it's a " friendly race" or not, the insurance company will know.....

You can get the rules app here: The Racing Rules of Sailing 2021-2024 - US Sailing

As for situation 2, if it looks close, hail the other boat. Shout "starboard!!". Again, loud and multiple times if necessary. You moved your boat to avoid them, that warrants a protest and the committee sorts it out. Again, learn the rules, read the SI's for the race and get protest flag.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Both were illegal. Red B Flag protest the mungerals!

1) international rules: upwind boat keeps clear! 
Club rules: you must keep the start area clear until your start time. You can not be in the start zone or another time/boat. 

2) Starboard is STARBOARD! Deviate 1 inch and protest the mugs! 

I am a nice, pleasant chap.... But put me as skipper in a race and the FANGS come out! 

(this is why I don't race any more) 


Mark


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

At least as you describe both of the situations were legal. 

In situation 1, you had the right as leeward boat to force the windward boat to come up until you are turned head to wind, but can't force the other boat to tack. 

In situation 2, if as you described you didn't have to turn to avoid a collision, then the port tacker passed clear ahead and that was solely all the port tack boat is required to do. 

The fact that your boat chose to be cautious and turn slightly is not relevant. Had this gone to protest with your description, the port tack boat would have been exonerated. But had your helmsman claimed that he had to turn to avoid a collision, the onus would have been on the port tack boat to prove that the port boat still could have passed clear ahead if the starboard tack boat had not altered course. 

Jeff


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Did I read question 1 wrong? Isn't this a mark rounding question? If so, Boat X acquires overlap before the two boat length circle at the windward mark. His obligation is to maintain a "proper course" to the mark and round it in a "seaman like manner". He cannot push you away from the mark just for spite. (from memory, to lazy to reach for the RRS on my bookshelf.)


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## capttb (Dec 13, 2003)

I think it was before the start and approaching the line George, but they were supposed to start 2 minutes apart. Sounds like you should have pushed him up in 1 and for 2 in a "friendly" race it's usually "No autopsy, no foul".


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## Wade (Feb 17, 2021)

cb32863 said:


> Situation 1, you needed to hail and say "room to tack!". Say it loud so they can hear, multiple times if necessary. As the leward boat of two boats on the same tack you had right of way. There is a question as to when they got along side you but, overtaking vessels, no matter what, must give way to the vessel being overtaken. I would highly suggest you read the Racing Rules of Sailing. Doesn't matter if it's a " friendly race" or not, the insurance company will know.....
> 
> You can get the rules app here: The Racing Rules of Sailing 2021-2024 - US Sailing
> 
> As for situation 2, if it looks close, hail the other boat. Shout "starboard!!". Again, loud and multiple times if necessary. You moved your boat to avoid them, that warrants a protest and the committee sorts it out. Again, learn the rules, read the SI's for the race and get protest flag.


Thanks for the information. The app looks great and I will definitely have to check it out. As for protests, the club doesn't do any, so it's kind of Wild Westy. Until now all were well-behaved.


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## cb32863 (Oct 5, 2009)

Wade said:


> Thanks for the information. The app looks great and I will definitely have to check it out. As for protests, the club doesn't do any, so it's kind of Wild Westy. Until now all were well-behaved.


No problem, one other thing at the mark..... if you were going to make the mark but they pushed you down, they are required to give mark room. You could hail something like "Mark room!" as well in that situation.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

Wade said:


> Thanks for the information. The app looks great and I will definitely have to check it out. As for protests, the club doesn't do any, so it's kind of Wild Westy. Until now all were well-behaved.


My home port yacht club has gone that way. We used to have a bigger fleet and things were more formal. We didn't have many protests, but they did happen, which I think was a good thing.

I took a long break from racing in that club when my son was born, and my weekends were consumed with kid stuff. Lately I have started entering a few races again, and have been very disappointed to see blatant rules violations have become the norm.

The problem with relaxing the rules and rule enforcement is that the experienced racers start to push the boundaries, and the new racers never learn the rules in the first place! (" what do you mean I can't motor all the way up to my start?!")

In your case, in a pursuit start, a boat that is not starting interfering with your start is just bad form, regardless of any rules that may or may not have been violated. It is worth having a discussion about it at your next skippers meeting to determine whether the fleet feels it is fair game or not.

Sent from my SM-G981W using Tapatalk


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

SchockT said:


> In your case, in a pursuit start, a boat that is not starting interfering with your start is just bad form, regardless of any rules that may or may not have been violated. It is worth having a discussion about it at your next skippers meeting to determine whether the fleet feels it is fair game or not.


I will note that it is not the case from the description of what happened in case 1. With all due respect, as I understand this case, it is not relevant to say "a boat that is not starting interfering with your start is just bad form". In reality both boats technically were starting.

To explain, in a pursuit start, the SI's normally state something like "boats may not enter the starting area for* X* number of minutes before their start". *X* minutes are normally 3, 4, or 5 minutes. That 3,4, or 5 minute period would be considered that boat's 'preparation' under the rules and therefore a boat in that period is technically starting. Because of that, neither of starting boat has any special privileges over (or courtesies owed to) another boat that is within it's preparatory period. Both boats are technically already racing and all racing rules will therefore fully apply. .
(Definitions- Racing: A boat is racing from her preparatory signal until she finishes and clears the finishing line and marks or retires, or until the race committee signals a general recall, postponement or abandonment. )

The skipper of the original poster's boat (OP Boat) had several alternatives. When this began, if there was enough room for the OP Boat to head up and still cross the line, as leeward boat OP can hail the windward Boat X and force Boat X to come up to the point that Boat X would need to tack to avoid crossing the line early or else slow down and fall behind. If the OP boat is not in a position where that is possible, but they have not reached the mark (which I assume is the starting pin) then Boat OP can slow down (release the sails, duck down wind, or even back wind a sail) for a moment and allow Boat X to get clear ahead so that they can make the line. That would be faster than sailing minutes away from the start. Lastly, if Boat OP has the ability to jibe around, she should come around and head for the line.(that too would also be faster than sailing minutes away from the start. )

But given what we know, it really sounds like Boat X neither violated the rules, or acted in a less than sportsmanlike manner.

I understand that these things sound bad in isolation, especially to a cruiser or other non-racer. I also get that this is casual racing and so things should be a little looser. But the racing rules still need to be applied. It seems like Boat OP did not fully understand their rights or the rights of Boat X and use that knowledge to make timely decisions accordingly.

I can give an example that maybe illustrates this type of issue, Years ago I raced on a boat with a long time cruiser turned racer. At a very crowded starting line, in good breeze, the owner placed the boat at the committee boat end and where our start would be clearly barging. I told him to peel off to leeward and come in behind the first row of starters since given how the fleet was setting up, there would not be room at the committee boat. He didn't. Boats from behind had peeled down to leeward of us so the only choice was to do a quick circle to windward and come back in the tail end of the starters. Getting back to the starting line was a mess because there were a number of boats besides our boat that had been barging that were cut off from the start by the lead boats and we were all dodging each other as well as the starters who had rights on us. .

The skipper of my boat was angry at the boats that closed the door on the bargers, saying that the boats that closed the door on us was being dangerously unsportsmanlike by refusing to give us room. He was really angry since we came very close to hitting the committee boat and that first row of starters, He was convinced that we were basically faultless, and that the other skippers were wildly bad sports. Even when I walked him through the rules. and he seemed to understand that it was us who potentially were violating the racing rules, and so it was us who needed to avoid the collision, he never would agree that the other boats were acting properly.

At some level, I understood where he was coming from in terms of a prime directive to avoid collisions. In my own case, I have opened the door to allow boats in when there was room to do so with that in mind. But on occasion, I have also closed the door on close to half a dozen barging boats when that made sense but only after hailing them well in advance that there will be no room for them to get between me and the committee boat. I don't see that as bad sportsmanship as much as racing by the rules.

Jeff


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## Sailormon6 (May 9, 2002)

cb32863 said:


> Situation 1, you needed to hail and say "room to tack!". Say it loud so they can hear, multiple times if necessary. As the leward boat of two boats on the same tack you had right of way. There is a question as to when they got along side you but, overtaking vessels, no matter what, must give way to the vessel being overtaken.


I don't know of any rule that allows a leeward boat to demand "room to tack" except within the two boat circle of a mark, or at an obstruction. Once he came up to windward of your boat, he was stealing the wind from your sails. As soon as he got into that position, you should have tacked across his stern, to get clear air for your sails. You should never let another boat pin you to leeward of him all the way to the layline. You might say, "I couldn't tack across his stern without hitting him." There's a way to do that. You steer farther to leeward briefly, to put just enough distance between your boat and his so that you can tack across his stern. By doing that, you're giving up a little time and distance, but I'd happily give that away instead of allowing him to steal my wind over a whole leg of the course.

The better choice would be to not get into that situation in the first place. Be aware of the boats behind you, If you see one overtaking you, tack across his bow while you still have room to do so.


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## Wade (Feb 17, 2021)

Hi all,

Thanks for all the comments. I think it was a case where there


Sailormon6 said:


> I don't know of any rule that allows a leeward boat to demand "room to tack" except within the two boat circle of a mark, or at an obstruction. Once he came up to windward of your boat, he was stealing the wind from your sails. As soon as he got into that position, you should have tacked across his stern, to get clear air for your sails. You should never let another boat pin you to leeward of him all the way to the layline. You might say, "I couldn't tack across his stern without hitting him." There's a way to do that. You steer farther to leeward briefly, to put just enough distance between your boat and his so that you can tack across his stern. By doing that, you're giving up a little time and distance, but I'd happily give that away instead of allowing him to steal my wind over a whole leg of the course.
> 
> The better choice would be to not get into that situation in the first place. Be aware of the boats behind you, If you see one overtaking you, tack across his bow while you still have room to do so.


I think you are right here. We got caught a little flatfooted since most of the racing had been a little less aggressive. Thanks for the information.


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