# Is Sailing Sexist?



## bljones

I just reviewed a book with a title that made me think- Joy Smith's "The Perfect First Mate- A Woman's Guide to Recreational Boating"

Dock Six Chronicles: Book Reviewsday Tuesday: Bad Title, Better Book

I thought the book had some great information, but the title kind of stuck in my craw: Why not title it "The Perfect Boat Owner"? I put it to the ladies of Sailnet- is this lifestyle of ours as sexist as I think?


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## jimgo

I guess it depends on what Ms. Smith was suggesting; if she was calling her husband/significant other the "Perfect First Mate" then maybe that title isn't as sexist as it sounds.


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## deniseO30

It's a pretty awful title. Don't think I'd read it based on that alone. Thank God the Stepford Wives aren't into sailing! lmao









Oh.. and yes.. the sport is very sexist. Look around next time you enter a marina. Look on the Big money racing boats. Sure, a few women have excelled but it's still a boys club. Some of you may remember my thread that Women are almost never called captain. It was a fun and enlightening discussionhttp://www.sailnet.com/forums/hersailnet/60079-womyn-never-called-captain.html...


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## Melrna

I would have to say "yes". For a majority of boat owners out there it is. As discussed to ad-nausea on most boats there are pink and blue duties. Than there are boats like mine where I am the Captain. There are strong women out there, I believe we are just a small minority.
To qualify this we need to look at the boating community as whole. There are day sailors, serious sailors ( racers and boaters who use there boats a lot), liveaboards, coastal cruisers and world voyagers to name a few. The last 3 is where I see most of the strong women who can do both duties; pink/blue. 
It is also can be broken down into generation classes as well. Baby boomers and earlier tend to hold more traditional roles of gender while young generation in particular the X,Y,Z (DINKS, Dual income no kids) gang women tend to cross gender roles more readily.
There can be a whole book or three on gender class roles and the changes over the last 100 years.
In sports Title X ruling for equal access and money in school sports help us women getting into sports where they boys club has keep us out for centuries. Since sailing is a sport, we have seen more and more women compete in world sailing events. The next VOR will have an all women's team for example. In the coming decades I believe we will see more women on equal footing with the men in this great sport. Than this debate might be dead.


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## fryewe

bljones said:


> I put it to the ladies of Sailnet- is this lifestyle of ours as sexist as I think?


bl: Pretty sexist of you to think that only the ladies can have an opinion on whether something is sexist or not. What's up with that?


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## Ajax_MD

*Sigh*


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## jameswilson29

Men and women have genetically-determined differences (pretty obvious) based on evolutionary roles, even in the way their brains work.

On average, men have greater natural mechanical and spatial relations ability than women do. In the prehistoric hunter-gatherer phase of evolution, men were programmed to be the hunters and women were programmed to be the gatherers. Hunting requires different skills from gathering, and vice versa.

Although either of the sexes are free to choose their educational direction and occupations in the free industrialized world, there remains a much greater proportion of men in engineering, math, architecture, the physical sciences, mechanics, construction, and computer science.

Many believe that natural abilities create needs to express those abilities.

Very few occupations today satisfy those needs resulting from our evolutionary abilities; most people in the workforce no longer use their hands to create things.

Consequently, men gravitate toward activities, hobbies and sports involving construction, the mechanics of how things work, and moving through three dimensional space, such as sailing. Sailing satisfies basic needs and challenges basic abilities that proportionately more men than women possess. Therefore more men are interested in and involved in sailing.

The same is true for automobile racing and a number of other pastimes.

Sorry, that is the way the world is. You are only surprised by this if you choose to believe the nonsense that everyone is the same at birth and its only environment and conditioning that determine who we become.


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## Tim R.

I would not consider sailing sexist as I do not feel women are purposely excluded from sailing.

Take two people. One man and one woman. Both have the exact same desire to sail. I feel both have the exact same opportunity to sail. There are no obvious exclusions for women.

Also consider the fact that men and women compete in regattas on equal terms. How many sports do that?


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## Minnesail

I don't think sailing is sexist, but it sure sounds like that book is! When was it written, 1955?


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## Siamese

Sailing isn't sexist, but don't pretend that the sexes aren't different.

The great majority of sailboats in a given marina are owned by men, or if they're owned by a couple (hetero), then the man is the one who decided to get the boat. 

If the man gets hit by a bus, the boat will be sold. Most likely to another man. 

Women aren't excluded from sailing, but the female sailboat owner is still a rarity.


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## Donna_F

Siamese said:


> Sailing isn't sexist, but don't pretend that the sexes aren't different.
> 
> The great majority of sailboats in a given marina are owned by men, or if they're owned by a couple (hetero), then the man is the one who decided to get the boat.
> 
> If the man gets hit by a bus, the boat will be sold. Most likely to another man.
> 
> Women aren't excluded from sailing, but the female sailboat owner is still a rarity.


Addressing only the ownership issue, I agree sorta as it pertains to the outside world. You might find that on sailing forums there is a smaller gap between the number of women members who own boats singly and women members who have joint ownership and are active participants in maintenance and sailing.

I'll stick my hand up as buying my first boat on my own and being the one to initiate buying the second boat after I found a SO. I gave away my first boat to a woman who happened to take my sailing class.


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## Minnewaska

Can anyone think of a marina that won't allow a women to rent a slip or a broker than won't sell a woman a boat? No barrier to entry that I can think of.

People are sexist. Sailing is not.


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## outbound

on my prior boats
wife co signed the loan or the vessel was documented to both of us.
?who owns the boat. Know what a lawyer would say.
never bought a boat without major input from admiral.
I won't live on my boat- we will
I won't cruise to various places- we will.
When I need to sleep- she will run the boat. When she sleeps I will.

Don't think there are sexist activities- think there are sexist people.

P.S.- Best blue water sailor I ever knew was a petit librianian ( yup truly). Meet her when I was ~30 and she was in her 60s ( my guess). Learned more about sail shape and how to run a boat from her then from just about anyone else I've known. Given her body habitus she taught me the easy way to do everything which usually turns out to be the right way.


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## HeartsContent

Hit the nail on the head! 

The reality? Women "generally" have no interest there's no conspiracy and there's nothing wrong with it.

Anyway, what's wrong with a boat bunny!


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## Siamese

It's a known fact that women are bad luck on a boat. Simple caution could look like sexism.


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## miatapaul

Well I am disappointed on my phone I thought this was "is sailing sexy." 

I will say if this forum's conservative bend is any indication it might be. There is also the fact that there cannot be true equality in real offshore sailing. Some one has to be in charge, in emergency situations decisions are made and followed. This is important to safety of all involved. To me it would not matter who is making the decisions man or woman. For me I would not have issues with taking orders from a female captain. But I know for some it would be an issue. I would love to find a woman to sail with. 

Sent from my ADR6425LVW using Tapatalk 2


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## CalebD

As for the gender specific chores, I don't buy it.
In the old British navy the boats were mostly inhabited by men, but not necessarily exclusively. Men usually did all of the so called "pink" chores: cooking, cleaning, sewing as well as the piloting, sail trim and navigating chores. The sailmaker was an important member of the crew in those days. 
I like to cook and I am re-learning how to sew by hand while sewing up some tears in our 10 year old genoa. I enjoy acting as steward on board my boat when we have company. 
If I can do both the "pink" and "blue" jobs then so can a woman. Think of solo circumnavigator donna Lange among others. 
Sailing isn't sexist; our culture is.


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## mr_f

My wife and I are relatively new to cruising size boats. She is a more competent sailor than I am, having grown up around boats, and probably should take the "captain" role. She is also smarter than I am and realized that if she puts me in charge during high visibility situations (like docking), people will assume I am the "captain" and it is me that gets to look like an idiot when things go wrong.


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## CalebD

mr_f said:


> My wife and I are relatively new to cruising size boats. She is a more competent sailor than I am, having grown up around boats, and probably should take the "captain" role. She is also smarter than I am and realized that if she puts me in charge during high visibility situations (like docking), people will assume I am the "captain" and it is me that gets to look like an idiot when things go wrong.


Now there is one smart gal!


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## Jeff_H

Somewhat relevant to the title of this thread was an article in "Sailing" magazine. To me, I do not see sailing as inherently sexist. That said, many boats are set up with winch and line loadings that are designed around what an average fit man can routinely manage. My wife who is in good physical shape complains that these loads are bigger than she can handle easily. While there are many un-fit men out there, and many very fit woman, perhaps it is time for designers to increase the mechanical advantage so that a larger cohort of the population can easily manage the loads. 

Anyway, below is the article on recent growth in sailing coming in the from women taking up the sport....

GROWTH: The secret is out, and she’s female

You sail like a mom: It’s a compliment, not a put-down



While sailing industry types scratch their heads trying to find the right formula to increase the number of kids in sailing programs, and sailing clubs and racing associations nationwide worry about declining memberships, sailing is shifting and growing under their feet.

Promoters repackage races to appeal to shoreside fans of testosterone-loaded extreme sports, selling sponsorships to brands which, in turn, hope fans will buy shirts or drinks, and sailboat builders seek designs hoping for mass appeal or some new “breakthrough” formula, all while sailing is being revolutionized from the inside out.

Sailing is becoming the activity of adult women.

Don’t believe it? Quick, say the last names of Ellen, Dawn, Betsy and Anna. You got them all in a few seconds right? Now try to do that quickly with the names of four guys who sail.

But it’s much more than a few popular female sailing athletes. This revolution isn’t being led by pros or celebrities, but by grassroots changes and on all new terms.

Here’s some evidence: Facebook analytics reports that among 1.1 million Americans who express an interest in sailing, women account for 51%, and 88% of them are over 25 years old. But they’re not just fans. Women under 24 and over 35 share their own sailing experiences on Facebook almost twice as often as men.

Consider that only 20 years ago, men outnumbered women in sailing 7-to-1.

You might see it in your town. What sailing center’s teaching staff isn’t dominated by strong, athletic, articulate and confident female sailing instructors? What collegiate sailing team doesn’t have at least as many women as men? What yacht club doesn’t like to boast about its first female commodore? And what regatta doesn’t overplay its all-female entries?

At the 2012 Soling Worlds for example, someone stood up at the opening ceremony to announce that boat No. 601, skippered by Whitney Kent and crewed by Cate Muller and Ashley Henderson, was the first all-female team ever in a Soling World Championship, and everyone loudly cheered and applauded, as if it was something strange and new. Sure, Soling fleet demographics lean to older guys who still seem focused on the Olympic trials of the 1970s, so they may not have noticed what has been happening recently in other fleets. The No. 601 team wasn’t there as a novelty or to be called out as tokens. Between them, the three women have decades of sailing experience and stellar records, racing and winning in one-design and handicapped events all over the country. They had trained for the event all summer because it happened to be coming to their hometown, and sailed respectably against tough competition.

In many cities near water in the U.S., women are organizing all-women teams and events. These events often grow organically out of a small network of veteran sailors who cobble together some used boats and recruit and help train newcomers until they’ve built a decent-sized fleet. In my town, summer Monday nights (the night the women sail) are the busiest nights on the bay. You might also notice that unlike classically organized sailing events, those for women organized by women don’t have a “yachty,” “club” or an “exclusive” feel. They don’t originate behind a closed gate or in the haze of cigar smoke at a bar. Instead, friends call friends and they go sailing. Everyone, regardless of skill, affiliation, age or experience is welcome, except, of course, for the men.

And here’s something new and different: unlike most adult men in sailing who will tell you that they’ve sailed forever, many women are entering the sport as adults. Often it happens while seeking social connections before or after marriage or kids. A woman will move to a new city to take a job, and the local sailing center looks attractive as a place to meet people and relax in the evenings. Friendships are sparked and a lifelong sailing adventure begins.

Women who get a taste for sailing in women-only events or in community programs often join teams that also include men and when they do, they’re just as good as the men, sometimes better. In my experience, among my crewmates, the women have the deepest commitment, train the hardest and can be the most motivated and motivational skippers.

Sailing belies gender. Women have everything it takes—strength, quickness, smarts and creativity—to sail at any level, from boat rides to blue water, from match racing to solo around-the-world adventures, from dinghies to tall ships.
But there is a more important aspect to this trend. When women who sail also happen to be moms, as they often are or will be, sailing becomes the activity of their families too.

When a sailing mom’s kids are very young, they get an inspiring early taste. They learn to be on and around boats and sailors, to wear life jackets, to touch water, and to be safe. Then, when her kids are old enough to be on a sailing team, the family becomes the team. Mom doesn’t sit in the bleachers at a soccer field, she trims the kite, steers the boat or calls tactics.

So I propose that the most important person on any sailing boat is the mom. Think about it this way: When a mom sails with her kids (instead of driving them to soccer) she’s doing something deemed suited only to men just a few years ago, and she is not doing the things thought to be the status quo for moms today. She’s a renegade. An innovator. A leader.

And that, all you industry types, club and racing association managers, boat makers and sponsors, is how you get kids into sailing.


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## outbound

beautifully said jeff and true. now if we can just get production cruising boats to more completely reflect that reality I could have saved a ton of money.


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## Minnewaska

Boats can be set up to require less strength, but it will cost $$ to do so. Furlers, larger winches or even *gasp* electric!

Perhaps we can remind all the purists that routinely dump on these mechanical devices that they are all sexist. Some argue that you should always be able to manually override. While I agree that one should at least know how to sail without these advantages, there are plenty of large boats where no amount of crew could overcome the loads, without electric or hydraulic advantage. Why should this be different for those with lesser strength on recreational boats.


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## MrPelicano

Sailing isn't inherently sexist, but men are and the sailing community is made up predominantly of men. Admittedly, more women are coming into the sport, and, at least in the racing sector, men are increasingly amenable to sailing with and against women. The introduction of the mixed-crew Nacra 17 catamaran into Olympic sailing is also a sign of progress. And though in the Laser class the Standard fleet is overwhelmingly male, there's a very good gender mix in Radials at the Junior level (and in my own fleet at the Masters level).

Nevertheless, the sailing world does remain testosterone-drenched in many respects, as a quick visit over to Sailing Anarchy forums will reveal. Plenty of unabashed sexism (and homophobia) on display in any given thread, and seldom called out by anyone who should know better. Pretty much what one would expect from men who prefer spending their free time offshore in the company of other men, doing manly things, far from the company of wives and girlfriends.


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## Minnewaska

MrPelicano said:


> Sailing isn't inherently sexist, but men are.....


In evidence above, by some of our female colleagues comments, men have not cornered the market on sexism.


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## MrPelicano

Minnewaska said:


> In evidence above, by some of our female colleagues comments, men have not cornered the market on sexism.


And what would that "evidence above" consist of, pray tell? Don't quite know what you mean by "cornered the market" but I believe most folks would agree that men dominate that market, and this manifests itself in many, many ways. Too many, in fact, to itemize in this post.

By the way, it's "Mr" Pelicano.


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## Minnewaska

MrPelicano said:


> And what would that "evidence above" consist of, pray tell? Don't quite know what you mean by "cornered the market" but I believe most folks would agree that men dominate that market, and this manifests itself in many, many ways. Too many, in fact, to itemize in this post.
> 
> By the way, it's "Mr" Pelicano.


"Pray Tell", very Connecticut. 

I have to retract my comment, as I looked above and must recall comments made in another thread. There are a couple going right now. Many women are not shy about posting critical comments about men. Although, it usually a seagull attack. They swoop in, crap all over the place, then fly away never to be seen again. In fact, I bet I could find more male bashing in "her-sailnet" than I would female bashing in all the other forums combined. If there was a "his-sailnet" we would probably catch up.


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## MrPelicano

Minnewaska said:


> "Pray Tell", very Connecticut.
> 
> I have to retract my comment, as I looked above and must recall comments made in another thread. There are a couple going right now. Many women are not shy about posting critical comments about men. Although, it usually a seagull attack. They swoop in, crap all over the place, then fly away never to be seen again. In fact, I bet I could find more male bashing in "her-sailnet" than I would female bashing in all the other forums combined. If there was a "his-sailnet" we would probably catch up.


I'm from California and haven't heard the "pray tell" expression used in the two years I've been in CT. Maybe its sumbliminal.

Sexism isn't about "bashing" except in its cruder forms, just like racism isn't simply about trashing people not like oneself. And you can trash / bash people in ways that don't fall into the realm of either -ism.

Where one crosses the line is when one makes sweeping generalizations about other groups - positive or negative - or when one creates or perpetuates an environment where members of those other groups don't feel safe or welcome. What started this thread was the observation that the title of a particular book implied that a woman's role on a boat is predominantly supportive - i.e., that skippers are men and first mates are women. And the question was: Is the title sexist? The thread then veered (or backed) into the larger question of whether sailing, itself, is a sexist environment. My position is "No" to the first question and "Yes" to the second.

But sailing is sexist to the extent that it reflects the larger society in which it takes place, where women continue to be economically disadvantaged, compared to men, and are disproportionately responsible for the kinds of tasks - e.g., child raising, housekeeping, etc. - that present obstacles to sailing, in general, and boat ownership in particular.

Beyond that, in the racing community with which I'm intimately familiar, women tend to occupy their traditional "roles" of wives/girlfriends of men who go out and commune with one another on the water. The more serious the racing program, the less likely you are to find women on the boat.

However, let me say that the advent of sport boats like the Melges 24, Melges 20, J-70, Open 6.50, etc., has opened the door to more women at every level, for a variety of reasons, and this is a good thing. At the same time, when I raced in the Melges 24 circus for several years, one could hear no shortage of disparaging / crude remarks from men about the top woman skipper on that circuit - i.e., it was okay to have women on the 24 in "supporting" roles (to help make weight targets), but not so okay (with some) to have them in leadership roles.

And, at the risk of appearing ungenerous, your own remark comparing women's infrequent critiques of men to seagull attacks, strikes me as rather problematic, along the lines I've noted above.

In closing, I'm stepping onto a new boat for AYC Spring Series and I don't think there are any women on the boat. And there weren't any women on the last big boat I crewed, on which the conversation was frequently crude when the topic of women (or gays or minorities) came up. Contrast this to the Laser fleet I sail in, where women (and juniors) are well-represented.


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## Minnewaska

Agreed, not all sexism is bashing. However, all gender bashing is sexism and it is rampant on her-sailnet.

I stand by the seagull analogy, because most of the bashing is done by posters that don't stick around long. I believe that is in part because most of the consistent female posters, such as DR and Denise30 don't take the bait, although, can rightly dish it out when the guys cross the line.

Personally, I reject the simplistic conclusion that women are economically disadvantaged, etc. That's just too easy to say and hard to correlate to the outcome. As I think about every person I know, both male and female, more males have a passion for the sport than female. It has nothing to do with roles or when they started sailing or money. There are all kinds in both genders, but I can count 1 passionate female sailor for 10 males. I know many other female sailors who enjoy it and prefer to take the lesser role, as they don't have any desire to become a student of the sport. No one is stopping them. My wife included. I would prefer she did, but she only wants to know enough to get by and relax.

Is there a passionate female sailor that is blocked? I'm sure there is. I'm sure there are males too. I would even stipulate that there may be more blocked females than males, but we don't know it to be true. In the end, however, I do think more males choose the sport than female and it isn't going to be gender neutral as a result.

p.s. sorry about the CT swat, it was intended to be kidding. I certainly realize by now that the smiley doesn't always communicate well.


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## Minnewaska

Here's the most recent post that I read in another active thread that I incorrectly attributed to this one. I've omitted the poster, as I really don't intend to start a sword fight. I'm just trying to show what I'm referring to. Have a male post something like this and it would start a war.



> Right on sailor wench, screw those stupid men, they are so insecure and I really could care less about what they have to say or whine about! I go my own way alone without the BS they put forth!...........


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## Sal Paradise

Thanks Brian,

At the very least you opened my eyes to think about some things. Your Op might be deliberately vague, as you asked about "this lifestyle". I'm not that familiar with your lifestyle. maybe I'll read your blog some more. 

As for my own lifestyle - my first thought is I'd kill to be the first mate and have my wife be captain. That's probably not going to happen. After 20 years of marriage I love her dearly but some fantasies are just not going to happen in this lifetime, for either of us. I don't think she is going to go out and buy a 40' sailboat and teach me how to help her sail it to Grenada, although I imagine I would really like that.  I don't want to pursue some sexist behavior that makes my wife feel second rate, but I really just consider sailing itself to be an innocent thing, a positive thing, a worthwhile thing. 


One time she took the boat out herself with one of our boys and after spending the better part of an hour stalling the boat out and going backwards (and laughing hysterically) she came to admit that she really isn't the expert sailer she once claimed to be. At age 47, I also am at that age where I know less than I did when I was 20. If you are my age, you know what I mean. Life teaches you to be humble. But something inside me drove me to spend days and years learning how to sail better and better and for her that same urge hasn't really happened yet. 

All that said, I know my wife gets scared and frustrated sometimes aboard and anything I can learn that would help me to help her enjoy it more and be more knowledgable is very helpful. We are lucky in that our whole family loves sailing. After all these years she and I really are best friends and more. Who wouldn't want their BFF to enjoy and learn all about sailing? I think I might take a look at that book.


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## nolatom

Not sexist. Racing is one of those sports where women regularly beat men, at least in boats requiring maximum brains and medium or less brawn. Sprinkle of few teams of the best of both genders into, say, Shieldses on a nice day, and see what happens.

Cruising, I suppose, since it required boat ownership et al, may have favored men since they were historically the ones more able to afford the money and time than women. The commercial waterfront has been mostly male since forever, the recreational waterfront less so. But that's much more about "traditional" gender roles than about sailing. 

Women now have almost four decades' experience in the Naval, Coast Guard, and Merchant Marine academies too, and now occupy captain's quarters on more than a few vessels. 

Some of this may take more time, but racing I think is almost at gender-neutrality, and could get there soon if designers want to reduce a bit of the upper-body strength and crew weight/leverage numbers on some of the winch-farm racers or screaming dinghies..


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## jameswilson29

nolatom said:


> Women now have almost four decades' experience... and now occupy captain's quarters on more than a few vessels..


Well, I suppose they could be there for any number of reasons...


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## PCP

No I don't think sailing is sexist but I love the sexist comment of the guy that comments the book:

"If you've just bought a boat or are considering a boat purchase, this is a good place for new boaters of both sexes to start.

*Just get past the cover*."


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## johnnyandjebus

I have no idea if sailing is sexist, no - I really do, it is not. As all ready mentioned, people are sexist not activities. With that said my berth, in my marina, gives a excellent view of the gas dock. I have seen plenty of men guiding their boats into the dock screaming out orders and generally acting like a horse's [email protected], aggressive, frustrated, demanding etc. In most of these cases the docking doesn't end well. I have yet to see a boat enter the gas dock under less than full control when skippered by a woman. Maybe it is because the male, first mate, has learned his place, not sure. 
On a completely different note; I spent last summer and this spring over-hauling my boat, blisters/new barrier coat, deck-rot/re-painting etc. The local boat fibreglass repair business has a younger female on staff, who really knows her stuff. I have had the opportunity to chat her up given the amount of time she spends at the marina. I have come to look foreword to her advice from a pro to a novice, that I am. She has plenty of stories about customers who treat her like the office secretary, not the technical on-staff expert that she is. Both male and female customers hold that view point of her. Get over it already, is all I can say...

John


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## sparrow16

Sigh.

At the risk of coming off as confrontational I must comment on your post.

To start with, I don't think you are being mean-spirited and I'm guessing you really must think this to be true. However, what I ask is that you please do not fall into the trap in thinking that just because things have been a certain way in the past that it will always be that way in the future or that the explanations given in the past are still true or automatically valid for all time.

For myself, I have a Ph.D. in physics and know many women who have similar professional abilities (mathematics, spatial reasoning, science, engineering). I also know many who have been actively discouraged from similar pursuits by men (and women) because it was not deemed "appropriate" for a girl/woman.

As for sailing I have observed many women who sail with men who are in charge. Then there are those women who I suspect let the men take charge because of old habits, social pressures and cultural norms they have internalized, not because they cannot do it. I wonder how many men do not let their wives be in charge because they fear that their male buddies would make fun of them?

Christine



jameswilson29 said:


> Men and women have genetically-determined differences (pretty obvious) based on evolutionary roles, even in the way their brains work.
> 
> On average, men have greater natural mechanical and spatial relations ability than women do. In the prehistoric hunter-gatherer phase of evolution, men were programmed to be the hunters and women were programmed to be the gatherers. Hunting requires different skills from gathering, and vice versa.
> 
> Although either of the sexes are free to choose their educational direction and occupations in the free industrialized world, there remains a much greater proportion of men in engineering, math, architecture, the physical sciences, mechanics, construction, and computer science.
> 
> Many believe that natural abilities create needs to express those abilities.
> 
> Very few occupations today satisfy those needs resulting from our evolutionary abilities; most people in the workforce no longer use their hands to create things.
> 
> Consequently, men gravitate toward activities, hobbies and sports involving construction, the mechanics of how things work, and moving through three dimensional space, such as sailing. Sailing satisfies basic needs and challenges basic abilities that proportionately more men than women possess. Therefore more men are interested in and involved in sailing.
> 
> The same is true for automobile racing and a number of other pastimes.
> 
> Sorry, that is the way the world is. You are only surprised by this if you choose to believe the nonsense that everyone is the same at birth and its only environment and conditioning that determine who we become.


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## wind_magic

Melrna said:


> As discussed to ad-nausea on most boats there are pink and blue duties.


As much as I would like to think this isn't in our DNA ...

A local Subway sandwich shop just hired a bunch of new young people for the spring/summer season and I overheard two conversations there about work assignments. It only took a week before the young men were washing dishes, cleaning bathrooms, and taking trash out and the young women were working the cash registers and interacting with customers. Does it have to be that way ? I'd like to believe it doesn't, but I'm not so sure.


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## jameswilson29

sparrow16 said:


> Sigh.
> 
> At the risk of coming off as confrontational I must comment on your post.
> 
> To start with, I don't think you are being mean-spirited and I'm guessing you really must think this to be true.


This has been repeatedly proven by science. If you doubt it, read this book, which summarizes the science behind these differences: "Taking Sex Differences Seriously" by Steven Rhoads: "]


sparrow16 said:


> As much as you do not want to believe it, hormones and chemicals determined by genetics can alter behavior.
> 
> 
> 
> sparrow16 said:
> 
> 
> 
> . I also know many who have been actively discouraged from similar pursuits by men (and women) because it was not deemed "appropriate" for a girl/woman.
> 
> 
> 
> You use a perfect example of the difference between the average woman and the average man: most men do not let others determine their destiny or career choices. They pursue what they want with determination, without seeking support or encouragement from the "village" - a classic difference between a hunter and a gatherer. Most men don't care whether others think their choices are "appropriate". That is why we speak our minds on the forums and most women are so concerned about offending others.
> 
> 
> 
> sparrow16 said:
> 
> 
> 
> As for sailing I have observed many women who sail with men who are in charge. Then there are those women who I suspect let the men take charge because of old habits, social pressures and cultural norms they have internalized, not because they cannot do it.
> Christine
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You will never get what you want out of life if you are passive and allow others to determine your destiny.
> 
> Take charge of your life, Christine, and stop waiting for the approval of others! You can do it!:laugher
Click to expand...


----------



## Sal Paradise

You can't make the point that the sailing world isn't sexist by ranting at and lecturing women sailors. Almost as funny as lecturing a PhD about science.


----------



## sparrow16

jameswilson29 said:


> This has been repeatedly proven by science. If you doubt it, read this book, which summarizes the science behind these differences: "Taking Sex Differences Seriously" by Steven Rhoads: "]
> 
> 
> sparrow16 said:
> 
> 
> 
> As much as you do not want to believe it, hormones and chemicals determined by genetics can alter behavior.
> 
> You use a perfect example of the difference between the average woman and the average man: most men do not let others determine their destiny or career choices. They pursue what they want with determination, without seeking support or encouragement from the "village" - a classic difference between a hunter and a gatherer. Most men don't care whether others think their choices are "appropriate". That is why we speak our minds on the forums and most women are so concerned about offending others.
> 
> You will never get what you want out of life if you are passive and allow others to determine your destiny.
> 
> Take charge of your life, Christine, and stop waiting for the approval of others! You can do it!:laugher
> 
> 
> 
> Note: This post not so much for James' benefit, he seems convinced of his argument (LOL), but rather for all of the other women and men out there who do not think biology is the only factor that determines our fates:
> 
> James,
> 
> I'm not waiting for your approval, as I indicated before, I own my own sailboat and I have my Ph.D. in physics so I think I'm doing fine being my own woman.
> 
> I speak from experience and from talking with other women. There are differences in the sexes but the social pressures to which women are subjected along with the expectations made of them from them from the day they are born are also very real and cannot be dismissed as unimportant. This is the flaw in your argument; you attribute all the differences to biology (i.e. nature) and ignore nurture.
> 
> The combined effects of both nature and nurture applies to men too but the difference is that women are generally encouraged to not be as extroverted as men. These social pressures skew the behavior and expectations of both men and women. Attributing all differences to biology is sexist.
> 
> Now, perhaps if we were to remove the effect of the negative social pressures women (and men) have endured we might still find more men in sailing and owning a sailboat. I would contend that this difference would be less than it is now. Fortunately, things seem to be changing for the better with more women sailing. To say it is all to do with biology is wrong.
> 
> With that I'm finished with this.
> 
> Fair Winds to All (and James too!  )
> 
> Christine
Click to expand...


----------



## northoceanbeach

jameswilson29 said:


> You use a perfect example of the difference between the average woman and the average man: most men do not let others determine their destiny or career choices. They pursue what they want with determination, without seeking support or encouragement from the "village" - a classic difference between a hunter and a gatherer. Most men don't care whether others think their choices are "appropriate". That is why we speak our minds on the forums and most women are so concerned about offending others.


I agree with James. I am a male, I am a sailor. No one got me into sailing, no one took me out as a kid, bought me my first boat, gave me lessons. I choose to do it, actually, it can be hard. I think most people don't realize how important it is to me, but it is, and I am working hard to make it my reality.

IMO, an American woman could do the same, and I think in some ways it might be easier. More people might be willing to help, to take her out sailing. Not that people haven't been more than helpful and friendly to me, but I'm sure if I was a woman I could do the same.

I see some female sailors, but the numbers aren't close. Just not as many with the drive, and I believe that it is in our DNA, something in men that makes them driven to explore, where women are more likely to "nest".

The book serves a purpose. There are wives and girlfriends going along, with less knowledge. If and when I take a woman out on my boat, I will have to teach her to sail, I have done it before and I will do it again. It's just the way it is, they're just not out there pushing me further, teaching me to be better. How many woman were taught by a man? 90%? Maybe higher. So the book is to help the female first mate.


----------



## outbound

speaking as a neuroscientist in general there are structural differences in the brains of different sexes. Even when learning neuropathology 30+ yrs ago we were taught how to look at a brain and with fair accuracy determine sex. mechanisms of sensory perception and cognitive processing vary with sex. however, in gerenal there is more variation between individuals of a given sex than the different sexes when looking a a particular trait. whereas one can make statements for a population they may not apply to an individual. Lies,lies and stastistics.
personally after years of sailing with gung ho racers I learned more about sail shape,reading weather and how my diesel ran from a 70y.o. little town librianian with perfectly coiffed hair and perfect nails. She also never called me stupid which was a pleasant change.


----------



## Minnewaska

You mean to say we haven't solved the debate over nature vs. nurture on sailnet? Who would have guessed that.


----------



## deniseO30

North LOL

"I see some female sailors, but the numbers aren't close. Just not as many with the drive, and I believe that it is in our DNA, something in men that makes them driven to explore, where women are more likely to "nest".
*
Blanket statement, just not true! *

"The book serves a purpose. There are wives and girlfriends going along, with less knowledge. If and when I take a woman out on my boat, I will have to teach her to sail, I have done it before and I will do it again. "
*Your a teacher, and your still learning yourself??*

" It's just the way it is", 
*No it's not*

They're just not out there pushing me further, teaching me to be better. How many woman were taught by a man? 90%? 
*Ladies do yourself a favor! If your male "teacher" uses the word "I" in every sentence....RUN! Don't let a man teach you all his mistakes and ego driven statements, find women sail instructors, and you will learn something!
*


----------



## northoceanbeach

deniseO30 said:


> *Your a teacher, and your still learning yourself??*
> ]


I've heard one of the best things about sailing is that we are always learning. It doesn't mean I can't teach a beginner basic sailing skills. I'm going to the library tonight to get a beginner sailing boom to teach a female the basics.

Maybe it is sexist that she is not teaching me. Maybe it is sexist against men that we have to do so much and get little credit.

Who is funding these big new race boats? Men. I they didn't put up the money, new advances could to be made. I might not use the technology now, but one day it will trickle down and become common place.

So I will go with yes, sailing can be sexist against men because whenever a woman does the same thing a man does she often feels like she deserves extra credit and she probably gets more attention.

I really don't know much about the professional race scene, but I'll bet most of the crew, the funding, the designers...are men.

Who won the last America's cup?

Larry Ellison, Russell Couts, James Spithill.

Has a woman ever won?


----------



## emcentar

My nesting instinct compels me to throw sexist sailors off my boat. They are bad chi.


----------



## bljones

northoceanbeach said:


> Who won the last America's cup?
> 
> Larry Ellison, Russell Couts, James Spithill.
> 
> Has a woman ever won?


Which, one could argue, demonstrates the inherent sexism of the sport.

Since we're cherrypicking sailing achievements, I posit that when provided with the same opportunities as their males peers, the women can, and do shine. 
For example: 
Tania Aebi
Jessica Watson
Laura Decker
Northoceanbeach

Which one hasn't sailed around the world?


----------



## Minnewaska

That's simply a slam on an individual poster. Have there been more men or women that have circumnavigated? I'm not arguing that men are superior sailor, I'm just calling out the argument above as personal.


----------



## bljones

Minnewaska said:


> I'm just calling out the argument above as personal.


Hardly- substitute my name, or minnewaska, or, hell, Larry Ellison, and the point remains the same. One of those names on the list is male, and one of those names hasn't circumnavigated and those names are the same.


----------



## emcentar

For what it's worth, I don't see nearly as many ads trying to sell me a Philippino wife on the non-sailing boards I frequent.


----------



## bljones

Alas, us male sailors are apparently suckers for pinoy affection.


----------



## Minnewaska

bljones said:


> Hardly- substitute my name, or minnewaska, or, hell, Larry Ellison, and the point remains the same. One of those names on the list is male, and one of those names hasn't circumnavigated and those names are the same.


I still don't get it. If I list three random male circumnavigators and one random female who hasn't, all that points out is the individual that hasn't. A personal slam. Nothing to do with gender equality or inequality.

Nevertheless, I will repeat that sailing is not sexist. Females can sail. Males can sail. The relative strength, skill and aptitude of the individual is what separates them, not gender. Individuals are, however, sexist.

NFL football is sexist and there is no equality in interest to participate.

I remain curious as to the proportion of males vs. females that have an interest to participate in sailing, if there were no other boundaries. Instinct doesn't count here.


----------



## bljones

Minnewaska said:


> I still don't get it. If I list three random male circumnavigators and one random female who hasn't, all that points out is the individual that hasn't. A personal slam. Nothing to do with gender equality or inequality.
> 
> .


It really isn't that hard to get. Further, if the name doesn't matter, then it obviously not a personal slam.
However, repeatedly calling a post a "slam" is a slam. You're seeing intentions that just aren't there.


----------



## zeehag

until early 1960s, you would be hard pressed to find a female sailor. we were still being taught that LADIES do NOT sail.
rodlmao. we still were banned from wood shop and metal shop, if you will remember a bit of time ago....


rodlmao. 

we have come a loong way, baby.


----------



## Sal Paradise

Had to rig my boat today. That mast is HEAVY. Earlier I had to clean the bilge and paint it. Disgusting. Then I was under the boat epoxing up cracks in the keel gelcoat. Messy and smelly. I will be doing more jobs that take muscle power, determination and focus. All to get the sailboat rigged and set in her slip. I had my wife and one other guy working with me today. The wife tries but she really isn't strong. I really needed someone with MUSCLE.


We have always been 50-50 paertners on our boats. But they are mine. I'm sure my wife can use the tiller just fine once we are sailing. I'm sure she can sheet the main. Yippeee. The boat will be mine because of the work I've done on her. 

Is the fact that I have to lift a heavy mast or scrape and paint sexist? I think not. It just is. Men were the small engines of the world 100 years ago. 


edit - I just saw my post follows zeehag. zeehag you are more of a sailor than I am. Respect. And there is no shop class anymore, for anyone.


----------



## deniseO30

Sal Paradise said:


> Had to rig my boat today. That mast is HEAVY. Earlier I had to clean the bilge and paint it. Disgusting. Then I was under the boat epoxing up cracks in the keel gelcoat. Messy and smelly. I will be doing more jobs that take muscle power, determination and focus. All to get the sailboat rigged and set in her slip. I had my wife and one other guy working with me today. The wife tries but she really isn't strong. I really needed someone with MUSCLE.
> 
> *Babies are heavy, laundry is heavy, cleaning up after a man is disgusting messy and smelly! Wife will make all the things nice, cook, clean YOUR mess, take your attitude with silence and continue to love you. (beats me why) *
> 
> We have always been 50-50 paertners on our boats. But they are mine. I'm sure my wife can use the tiller just fine once we are sailing. I'm sure she can sheet the main. Yippeee. The boat will be mine because of the work I've done on her. *
> You never planned to share another lady (your boat) with your wife*
> 
> Is the fact that I have to lift a heavy mast or scrape and paint sexist? I think not.
> *No.. it's your thinking that is from caveman 101*
> 
> It just is. Men were the small engines of the world 100 years ago.
> *Ever see a lions pride? don't ever mess with the ladies. (Lioness's) *


Jus uke


----------



## Sal Paradise

Denise,

you seem to be arguing for sexism. Women nurture is what you are saying. 

For my own post, I was was just ranting because my own work was all effed up. Nothing much to do with sexism or what my wife or anyone did..... my boat is a mess, still on the hard..rigging laying all over the place...that kind of thing. I just switched to a much cheaper yard.. its actually the back of a waterfront bar, no power,no water , no crane, no room... you have to work on the road. But half the price and a mile from my house. And a tiki bar 50 feet from my slip. ;-) But right now not only is my boat messed up, its on the side of the road. So, I was just ranting. I have no idea who is sexist and why. But this too shall pass. I had a snickers bar and now I'm back to my old self. 

And I do my own laundry. With that, I am done with this thread. Fair winds everyone.


----------



## northoceanbeach

Totally a slam. You didn't pick a random name, ou picked mine. That makes it not random.

Why not take an actual random list of all the names of the people whi have circumnavigated and see how many are women.

You are only proving my earlier point that when women accomplish what a man has done many times they get more recognition. In this case for circumnavigating.

Isn't it slightly sexist to have a her sailnet but no his sailnet to talk about men specific issues?

I'm not sexist. Any person that walked down the dock and asked for my help I would give it.



bljones said:


> Which, one could argue, demonstrates the inherent sexism of the sport.
> 
> Since we're cherrypicking sailing achievements, I posit that when provided with the same opportunities as their males peers, the women can, and do shine.
> For example:
> Tania Aebi
> Jessica Watson
> Laura Decker
> Northoceanbeach
> 
> Which one hasn't sailed around the world?


----------



## smackdaddy

Sexist? Siiiiggggghhhh.

Sam Davies.

I don't care what's between that sailor's legs. She is truly that.


----------



## jameswilson29

bljones said:


> ... I posit that when provided with the same opportunities as their males peers, the women can, and do shine...


Exactly...and if we would only install certain people in a the air-conditioned corner office in control of certain things, they would perform equally admirably.

Unfortunately for those folks who are waiting for someone to provide them with the "same opportunities", the world is a competitive place and there are those of us who will pursue and take those opportunities ("the hunters") without waiting for someone to hand them to us ("the gatherers").

If you think the world owes you something, you are already lost. Life ain't fair. Get over it.


----------



## bljones

northoceanbeach said:


> Totally a slam. You didn't pick a random name, ou picked mine. That makes it not random.
> 
> Why not take an actual random list of all the names of the people whi have circumnavigated and see how many are women.
> 
> You are only proving my earlier point that when women accomplish what a man has done many times they get more recognition. In this case for circumnavigating.
> 
> Isn't it slightly sexist to have a her sailnet but no his sailnet to talk about men specific issues?
> 
> I'm not sexist. Any person that walked down the dock and asked for my help I would give it.


I picked YOUR name, because I was replying to YOUR post.
That doesn't make it a slam.


----------



## bljones

jameswilson29 said:


> Unfortunately for those folks who are waiting for someone to provide them with the "same opportunities", the world is a competitive place and there are those of us who will pursue and take those opportunities ("the hunters") without waiting for someone to hand them to us ("the gatherers").
> 
> If you think the world owes you something, you are already lost. Life ain't fair. Get over it.


Is that what you tell your divorce clients, counselor, or do you tell them that you are worth what you are worth because it is your job to level the playing field and get an equitable and fair settlement? 

While a big picture discussion of sexism as a whole is interesting, I'm not sure how all of this relates to the self-proclaimed and self-evident bigger, stronger tougher half of a boating couple staying planted behind the wheel and nudging the throttle while the smaller, weaker half is on the bow fighting with the anchor and rode.... which is essentially the sort of semi-amusing sexism that prompted this topic...

...Unless one believes that he "hunts" for the anchorage, and she "gathers" the anchor and rode.


----------



## northoceanbeach

Soooo if I used your name to minimize your accomplishments and try to make you feel unqualified to speak on a certain topic that's not a slam? Perhaps you regret this but wont own your mistake. 

As sad above. Without knowing those women's history I would guess they were raised on the water by their parents. Like the Dutch girl that at 16 attempted to circumnavigate but lost her boat in SE Asia. It's easier I you were raised with your father teaching you sailing. I had only ever been on a boat, not even a sailboat until I was 16 once, fishing on a lake in Iowa, an at 16 a ferry across the English Channel. If I had co parents I probably would have circ. by now.


----------



## bljones

northoceanbeach said:


> Soooo if I used your name to minimize your accomplishments and try to make you feel unqualified to speak on a certain topic that's not a slam? Perhaps you regret this but wont own your mistake.
> 
> As sad above. Without knowing those women's history I would guess they were raised on the water by their parents. Like the Dutch girl that at 16 attempted to circumnavigate but lost her boat in SE Asia. It's easier I you were raised with your father teaching you sailing. I had only ever been on a boat, not even a sailboat until I was 16 once, fishing on a lake in Iowa, an at 16 a ferry across the English Channel. If I had co parents I probably would have circ. by now.


I'm not subtle. If I intended to slam you, it would be far, far more apparent.
The fact that you feel slammed does not mean that a slamming occurred or was intended by this author, who, once again, was. not. slamming. you. HTFU.
Now, moving on to the rest of your post above ("as sad above" is the most appropriate freudian typo I have read today), as I mentioned in my post to minee where he (also incorrectly) described my post as a slam, I pouinted out that you could substitute MY NAME or his name, or larry Ellison and the point would be the same- the chicks have lapped the planet. I haven't, he hasn't you haven't....
and AC winner larry Ellison hasn't either. That was my point, now well and truly lost- that simply because one has not won the AC is not proof of lack of competence or ability, and not proof positive of equality either. That is akin to arguing that since a woman has not won the Masters that women are lousy golfers.

Are we clear on this now, or do you plan to keep slamming me by casting negative aspersions on my motives and accusing me of bashing which does not exist?

btw, for the record, I hope that you do manage a circ one day, if that is your wish.


----------



## Donna_F

No slamming, no aspersions. Let's get back to sexism, please.


----------



## bljones

DRFerron said:


> No slamming, no aspersions. Let's get back to sexism, please.


shouldn't you be in the kitchen?


----------



## Donna_F

bljones said:


> shouldn't you be in the kitchen?


Don't make me pull your plug.


----------



## bljones

Hey, you asked for a return to sexism.


----------



## Ajax_MD

How about a return to just plain, old sex?


----------



## smackdaddy

bljones said:


> While a big picture discussion of sexism as a whole is interesting, I'm not sure how all of this relates to the self-proclaimed and self-evident bigger, stronger tougher half of a boating couple staying planted behind the wheel and nudging the throttle while the smaller, weaker half is on the bow fighting with the anchor and rode.... which is essentially the sort of semi-amusing sexism that prompted this topic...
> 
> ...Unless one believes that he "hunts" for the anchorage, and she "gathers" the anchor and rode.


Okay. That's good.


----------



## Minnewaska

bljones said:


> .... I'm not sure how all of this relates to the self-proclaimed and self-evident bigger, stronger tougher half of a boating couple staying planted behind the wheel and nudging the throttle while the smaller, weaker half is on the bow fighting with the anchor and rode.... ....


My smaller, weaker half stands at the bow with a windlass remote in her hands and points to where she wants me to steer. I'm the non-comm helmsman in this scenario, that's all.

I see no sexist role. Either position is fairly mundane.


----------



## LinekinBayCD

Is it sexist to recognize that there are physical and psychological differences between men and women. I don't think so. It would be sexist to discriminate against a female in favor of a male in circumstances where those differences don't matter. Where physical strength is an aspect of a job or activity you would be crazy not to expect men to perform better. 

You want a captain for an Americas Cup racer man or woman, who ever you think can get it done. Want a grinder for that same boat it's going to be a guy. 

Kind of telling the lack of participation by women in this thread. Guys like combat.


----------



## wind_magic

Some sexism on a boat is self-reinforcing. An example is something like a winch, it could be made to have whatever mechanical advantage the manufacturer wants to give it based on the diameter of the winch, the length of the winch handle, etc, but because most sailors are men it is designed for a man, for a man's reach, the amount of power a typical man can apply to it. Think about it, it could easily be twice as hard to turn, or half as hard, but it is designed so that an adult male can raise a sail in the shortest amount of time using a fair amount of his muscle strength, it is optimized for a typical male. If it were designed for a woman, sure, it might take a little bit longer to raise a sail because it would require a few more turns, but a woman wouldn't have to work any harder to use a winch than a man does. So you end up in this situation where it really is harder for a woman to work a winch, maybe even beyond her strength, because the winch was never designed for her, and then men use that to justify to themselves that women can't handle the boat. Well, most men couldn't use a winch on a boat if they were designed to be used by professional football players.

We all need mechanical advantage to operate a sailboat, and it would only take just a little more mechanical advantage for women to operate one just as well as a man.

I'm not saying there aren't differences between men and women, of course there are, but that shouldn't matter where winches and windlasses are involved.


----------



## zeehag

before winches and windlasses it was easier, i think--didnt have to suffer crappy winches when the awesome blocks and tackles worked just fine n dandy , thankyou. i still prefer belaying pins to cleats and i prefer block and tackle set ups to winches. i especially appreciate them as my sheet winch for main has failed nicely.....

ggrrrrr.....


lol


----------



## deniseO30

Almost without exception, whenever I see a couple on a boat the guy is at the helm and the Mrs is on the bow, jumping to the dock tying lines etc, even deploying or trying to break the anchor out. 

Yes, she may be weaker physically and yes, it would be sexist to say she should do less physical work but; to reverse it and justify why he's at the helm because; "it's his boat, women can't park, don't have the intellect for navigation or it's "traditional" and male privilege. Is a very mixed message also.

It's not because she's incapable of Being a helms-person. It's the simple fact the men take, push, lead, assume, direct, teach, advise across almost all areas of life, with impunity. When or if a woman steps out of the "mold" she's quickly set straight, told where she needs to be, called a ***** (often by other women) when the men are being called sir in the same position or situation. 

Many men thankfully in recent years are aware of these issues and don't coddle women or try to protect or fix things for them. These men, also often recognize this unique dynamic and don't step down or feel emasculated when she's trying to gain the skills that come so easily to males because she's not had the opportunities he has had. 

I could go on about how so many women are self defeated, done before they start, run and hide when things get difficult, or just defer to the Man to do what she's learned to get done by being feminine. Gossip, peer pressure and derision are a very large part of what keeps women from becoming more able in the many areas that are traditionally male. 

Mechanical advantage, "how things work" is a mystery to many women. (and many men) But, it can be learned.


----------



## JimMcGee

Hmm, here's a thought from a different angle.

Women have had a BIG effect on sailboat design in recent years, probably more than those America's Cup racers. 

Why? Because production boat manufacturers recognized that wives have a big say in the purchase so they started asking what was important to them. They found women had different priorities than men and that influenced design. 

So if manufacturers are catering designs to women why are there still fewer women owners?

First couples outnumber singles by a pretty wide margin in every marina we've been in. 

But maybe the reason you don't see more single women owning sail boats has as much to do with marketing as anything else. Boat manufacturers only advertise in sailing magazines, mostly read by people who already sail. 

Maybe advertising outside the sailing rags would bring new people into the sport and reach more women who might be interested. 

BTW, for us sailing is a reason to spend time together and that's a good thing.


----------



## JimMcGee

deniseO30 said:


> Almost without exception, whenever I see a couple on a boat the guy is at the helm and the Mrs is on the bow, jumping to the dock tying lines etc, even deploying or trying to break the anchor out.
> 
> Yes, she may be weaker physically and yes, it would be sexist to say she should do less physical work but; to reverse it and justify why he's at the helm because; "it's his boat, women can't park, don't have the intellect for navigation or it's "traditional" and male privilege. Is a very mixed message also.
> 
> It's not because she's incapable of Being a helms-person. It's the simple fact the men take, push, lead, assume, direct, teach, advise across almost all areas of life, with impunity. When or if a woman steps out of the "mold" she's quickly set straight, told where she needs to be, called a ***** (often by other women) when the men are being called sir in the same position or situation.
> 
> Many men thankfully in recent years are aware of these issues and don't coddle women or try to protect or fix things for them. These men, also often recognize this unique dynamic and don't step down or feel emasculated when she's trying to gain the skills that come so easily to males because she's not had the opportunities he has had.
> 
> I could go on about how so many women are self defeated, done before they start, run and hide when things get difficult, or just defer to the Man to do what she's learned to get done by being feminine. Gossip, peer pressure and derision are a very large part of what keeps women from becoming more able in the many areas that are traditionally male.
> 
> Mechanical advantage, "how things work" is a mystery to many women. (and many men) But, it can be learned.


Denise, just because someone is on the bow doesn't mean they're being demeaned.

And your comment about "self defeated, done before they start, run and hide when things get difficult, or just defer to (someone else)" could apply equally to a lot of men I know. I see that as a personality thing more than a gender thing.



deniseO30 said:


> When or if a woman steps out of the "mold" she's quickly set straight


Umm, my wife is a Philly girl. 'Nuf said :laugher

In any long term relationship you tend to fall into roles and habits that are comfortable. I tend to do the mechanical stuff on our boat. Not because I don't think my wife could learn, but because I enjoy it and she has no interest. But then I don't get everything she enjoys either.

But if we were exactly the same life would be boring wouldn't it?


----------



## aeventyr60

Whenever I've had new sailing friends (couples) on the boat, the Women are the better helmsmen(person). seems the gals have a better touch on the wheel, something about finesse I guess. The guys want to muscle it and drive all over creation. I'll take a gal at the wheel any day.


----------



## tempest

It's a pretty open ended question..

It seems to me that, Sailing is sailing. People like it or they don't. Many who don't seem to take to it view it as " alot of work" 

There's certainly enough men who feel the same way, evidenced by the number of powerboats and jet skiers who prefer to simply turn a key and go. 

Typically, I think people are introduced to sailing somehow..either by a parent, a friend, school etc. IF that was a good experience, there's a good chance you might continue. 
There are two sisters who occasionally sail with me, whose dad owned the same boat as me growing up. One likes the relaxing aspect, one loves helming, trimming and going fast. 

I think Wind Magic's point re: the loads on winches etc is valid and something for designers to consider. 
They do make electric winches and those power assist drills that I see at boat shows..I expect that I'll need them someday..or I'll make the typical trawler transition when I can't manage the forces. 

There's no shortage of women sailors in my marina. There are several women who own their own vessel. There are quite a few couples who appear to share all the work and the women are all very knowlegable, capable and enthusiastic sailors. My slip neighbor's wife made a leap to the dock last summer that I wouldn't attempt. He was getting blown away from the finger pier. She made the jump before I could get there to help.

I've worked with three female sailing instructors. though, there definitely seems to be more men. 

As it happens, my marina is family owned and run. 3 brothers and 6 sisters. ( one a competitive sailor) Three of the women are over 6' tall, any one of them could/would kick my @#$ if I suggested that they had limitations because they were female.


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## JennyWren

Hello. First post here, long one to make it worthwhile. 

I don't "get out much" in that we rarely race, don't use clubs and marinas and sail on our own or with only a few friends. We don't have much to do with other sailors, so my experience probably isn't typical.

Most of the sexism encountered personally is attitudinal over boat ownership and knowledge of one's own boat - not something that has practical consequences, just irritating.

For some - male and female - it seems women only own boats when there is absolutely no boyfriend, husband, brother or male business partner within cooee that ownership can be attributed to. They also automatically view a boat co-owned by a male and a female as "his".

I own our boats with my husband. In spite of one of them being entered in a particular event at a particular club for many years in both names every single time, he was not that long ago publicly noted as the sole owner with nil acknowledgement of me. I don't think anybody thought, "let's make sure we ignore the female owner because wives don't count" but that said, I doubt ownership of a boat co-owned by two men would have been attributed to one name only.

More than once, though it's a while ago now, I was asked questions about this boat in my husband's absence, which I answered, only to have the same men ask my husband the same questions about two minutes later. Hardly stops me getting on with life, but the dismissiveness is annoying. Things may be better now, a few years hence ... don't get out enough now to tell.

I note Sal Paradise acknowledges his wife's 50-50 partnership but feels the boat is his because he does the work. Some comments below are prompted by this, but *not *aimed at or in criticism of him - everyone's circumstances and views are different, and this is just my take on that issue.

My husband does the bulk of work on our boats too. He's the lifelong sailor; I am not. However, he/we only have the boats in the first place because my job pays for them and also buys him the freedom to be primary boat hand. He for his part works long and hard to minimise our maintenance costs and does jobs/makes things that would otherwise cost us thousands. At times I've put up with employment situations that if it weren't for what the boats mean to him would have had me walking out of my profession and settling for significantly lower pay. It's not "my" money because I earn it, it's "our" family income, but whether or not we have enough of it to remain boat owners with his time free for maintenance is mostly down to me.

He's stronger and fitter than I, yes, but not built like a front row forward and there's enough jobs that need my help. But that's not the point - I earned and owned our boats well before I ever picked up a sanding block or helped re-step a mast.

(As does - in my view - a non-sailing partner who supports family income being spent on boats instead of retirement savings or things of mutual interest.)

The odd man has tried to take over from me on board, as has the odd man ashore when spouse and I are getting to and from boats. I can tell when a man "gets" that I normally manage for myself and he just wants be useful, and that's kind and appreciated. When he starts giving me instructions, assuming husband knows what to do but I must be in need of direction from some random male I've never clapped eyes on before, that's another thing altogether. There's one individual, otherwise a decent bloke, that I won't have aboard because of takeover tendencies, though he's welcome to crew in my absence. I don't "justify" my place on my boat - push me aside more than once and you're not coming back. I'd blacklist a woman for this too, but so far haven't had cause. Ashore, if it's something I want to do myself, it's a polite "under control, thanks, nice of you to offer though". Gratuitous instruction doesn't stop me getting on with life, but is an irritation nonetheless.

In closing I'd also note that recognising that some people have a few extra roadblocks put in their way is hardly expecting life to be handed to you on a plate.

(Oh - and those women who say things to me like "there's nothing here [_at boat show X_] for us girls" or "we women don't know anything about [_insert mechanical item or process_]" or "we girls don't like _[insert any aspect of sailing that might mess up your hair_]" *really *annoy me. Ask my opinion before you presume to speak on my behalf, thanks very much.  )


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## northoceanbeach

I don't think it has anything to do with marketing. If ou are not into sailing in the first place ou don't see any marketing. It's not like Seinfeld has ads for beneteau.

The marketing is geared towards the target audience. It doesn't make the target audience.



JimMcGee said:


> Hmm, here's a thought from a different angle.
> 
> First women have had a BIG effect on sailboat design in recent years, probably more than those America's Cup racers.
> 
> Why? Because production boat manufacturers recognized that wives have a big say in the purchase so they started asking what was important to them. They found women had different priorities than men and that influenced design.
> 
> So if manufacturers are catering designs to women why are their fewer women owners?
> 
> Well first couples outnumber singles by a pretty wide margin in every marina we've been in.
> 
> But maybe the reason you don't see more single women owning sail boats has as much to do with marketing as anything else. Boat manufacturers only advertise in sailing magazines, mostly read by people who already sail.
> 
> Maybe advertising outside the sailing rags would bring new people into the sport. Since half the population is female - well do the math.
> 
> BTW, for us sailing is a reason to spend time together and that's a good thing.


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## Donna_F

Well said, JennyWren and welcome to SailNet!


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## zedboy

deniseO30 said:


> Almost without exception, whenever I see a couple on a boat the guy is at the helm and the Mrs is on the bow, jumping to the dock tying lines etc, even deploying or trying to break the anchor out.


Old the old boat (OB in well and too far forward for easy reach from helm), we anchored with me on the bow, my then-5-year-old son on the throttle, and my then-7-year-old daughter at helm. Worked good.

I would want whoever's got the most experience on the bow calling the shots.


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## Minnewaska

Sexism is self-perpetuating.

I read the example above of how one felt dismissed because a man was asked the same question that a women just answered. It could have been dismissive. However, the first thought that went through my mind is buddies that will continually ask me the same question, they would then ask the dog, a stranger or just talk to the piling. They often don't accept anyone's answer or just want to talk about the topic.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. If you want to see sexism, it will remain.


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## bljones

Minnewaska said:


> If you want to see sexism, it will remain.


and dismissing it won't make it go away.


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## poopdeckpappy

Ya know, I'm not so sure that sailing is sexist, where else can a women step foot aboard and immediately become ***ADMIRAL***

Wait, you may be right!!, it is sexist!! Well just kiss my a$$ from now on! Not me! I'm not gonna take this. Wormer, he's a dead man! Marmalard,dead! Niedermeyer... oops, sorry, got caught up in the moment


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## GeorgeB

Isn’t “Whenever I've had new sailing friends (couples) on the boat, the Women are the better helmsmen(person). seems the gals have a better touch on the wheel, something about finesse I guess. The guys want to muscle it and drive all over creation. I'll take a gal at the wheel any day.” a little sexist statement in its own right?

Mrs. B and I jointly own all the boats we’ve bought since our nuptials. We both appear on all the paperwork. The club membership is in my name (why pay double the dues?). Mrs. B is very familiar with all the boat systems (sometimes too familiar!) She is not a string puller and helms for personal enjoyment. Yes, she hands the helm to me during sea and anchor details and when the wind pipes up, and during nighttime… But she does this for enjoyment and not to prove anything (she already has about 1,000 open ocean miles on her resume). I need you female sailnetters to write her a stern letter and make her do all the things she personally doesn’t like to do for the sake of saving me from appearing sexist.


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## JennyWren

Thanks for the welcome, DRFerron. 



Minnewaska said:


> Sexism is self-perpetuating.
> 
> I read the example above of how one felt dismissed because a man was asked the same question that a women just answered. It could have been dismissive. However, the first thought that went through my mind is buddies that will continually ask me the same question, they would then ask the dog, a stranger or just talk to the piling. They often don't accept anyone's answer or just want to talk about the topic.
> 
> Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. If you want to see sexism, it will remain.


Quite so, but it would never have occurred to me personally to go looking for sexism, in fact the opposite. I work in a traditionally-male-dominated field, at times in the past with particularly male-oriented applications and subject matter, and have never personally encountered sexism from colleagues, so I wasn't on the lookout for it in the comparatively benign field of boat ownership.

It was just noticeable - to both of us - how often there was a different reaction to the same factual response (year of boat launch, boat builder, boat designer, stuff like that) when delivered by a female and a male.

Though hardly an issue that makes any difference to my ability to get on with life, it was a bit of a surprise.

I currently have a work colleague who *would* ask you, me, him, the dog, the piling, any passing seagull and the probably boat itself, and would not absorb a thing any of us said on an equal-opportunity basis.


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## Minnesail

Here's another example along the lines of the winches being geared for an average man's strength and are thus a little heavy for an average woman.

Yesterday I got a Mustang MD3184 inflatable PDF with harness (happy birthday to me!). According to the manual "The harness is designed to be worn by persons at least 5 feet 5 inches tall."

I'm guessing 90% of men are over 5' 5", but maybe 50% of women. My wife is only 5' 0", so she'd have to wear a separate PFD and harness if she were going to clip in. Not that this is horrible, but it's just one more little thing that women have to put up with that men never think about. As they say, privilege is invisible to those who have it.


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## deniseO30

Minnesail said:


> As they say, privilege is invisible to those who have it.


Very good observation!


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## TomMaine

bljones said:


> I put it to the ladies of Sailnet- is this lifestyle of ours as sexist as I think?


Absolutely. In a world where my wife or daughter will make on average, 75 cents to the dollar I'll make, doing the same task, how could the world of sailing possibly escape?

But those are salary averages. Fortunately, each person is different in regards to sexism, and can help to make the world in general(and sailing as well), less sexist.

Due simply to the archaic sexist title, no one ought to buy that book.


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## wind_magic

I don't know. A few people have mentioned this thought of men being more understanding, accommodating, or helping women overcome sexism in some way, and I don't think men can be as big a part of that as some might think. 

DeniseO wrote, "Many men thankfully in recent years are aware of these issues and don't coddle women or try to protect or fix things for them. These men, also often recognize this unique dynamic and don't step down or feel emasculated when she's trying to gain the skills that come so easily to males because she's not had the opportunities he has had."

Would a man ever write "Many women thankfully in recent years are aware of these issues" ? I don't think so, I think a man would just stick his thumb in your eye and tell you to pound sand, even the idea of wanting to be accepted for who you are and have the world be a more accommodating place is more of a feminine idea than it is masculine (traditionally)

I guess my point is, can you ever really win a traditionally man's game using traditionally women's rules ?

DeniseO also wrote, "It's the simple fact the men take, push, lead, assume, direct, teach, advise across almost all areas of life, with impunity. When or if a woman steps out of the "mold" she's quickly set straight, told where she needs to be, called a ***** (often by other women) when the men are being called sir in the same position or situation." and I think that is a big part of it.

To that I would respond that as DeniseO also said, women are often the problem as much as men, but because of that I think it might be fair to say that women are ultimately the WHOLE problem, because is it really a man's responsibility to fix this ? Isn't that part of the problem, that a woman might wait for a man to fix everything ?

Even allowing a man to be in a position to decide that a woman will or won't be treated fairly is allowing him being in charge. Someone above (I forget who, and I paraphrase for effect) said that on his boat the women are encouraged to do this and that, to take the helm, etc ... isn't that the whole problem, no matter what she's doing, he's still the one in charge! He's still making the decisions, what if he woke up tomorrow and decided he didn't like how it was going and started making different decisions, or what if the man wasn't sexist 99.99% of the time but still was sexist the 0.01% of the time that it actually mattered ?

I'm not even sure where I'm going with this except that I don't think a woman's problem is a man when it comes to sexism, no matter how she might be treated. They call it "taking charge" because it is TAKEN, not because it is given, and men who put themselves in charge don't wait around for it they just do it, it is as much about independence and daring as anything.

Zeehag, DeniseO, and others get respect here from men and women alike, that's a simple fact. They are independent people and I don't think any man here would believe for a moment that their strings are being pulled by anyone. No man gave them that right to be independent, I'm sure they just woke up one day and took it, the same as anyone in command of their own boat, and that's how it works no matter who you are.


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## TomMaine

The existence of sexism isn't debatable. It's undisputable fact, like racism. But that doesn't say an individual is sexist or not. And sexism goes both ways. I don't like being stereotyped by my gender. But sexism is primarily aimed at women. 

In the context of the OP, I again can't see how sailing would escape the effects of sexism. The title, which many women I know, would resent as stereotypical, is proof.


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## Minnewaska

Sexism most definitely exists. So does competition. Survival of the fittest is natural evolution or do we believe we can think that way? Big vs small, strong vs weak, dominant vs submissive. These apply woman to woman as well as man to woman. Its all too convenient and overgeneralized to suggest its all sexism. Every woman that I know that has made the same effort to learn to sail as I did, is at least as good at it. Those that haven't are not, and I'm having trouble attributing that simply to gender bias. Any man who has taken the back seat or made less effort is just as far behind the curve.

The book title is out of line.


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## LinekinBayCD

wind_magic said:


> I don't know. A few people have mentioned this thought of men being more understanding, accommodating, or helping women overcome sexism in some way, and I don't think men can be as big a part of that as some might think.
> 
> DeniseO wrote, "Many men thankfully in recent years are aware of these issues and don't coddle women or try to protect or fix things for them. These men, also often recognize this unique dynamic and don't step down or feel emasculated when she's trying to gain the skills that come so easily to males because she's not had the opportunities he has had."
> 
> Would a man ever write "Many women thankfully in recent years are aware of these issues" ? I don't think so, I think a man would just stick his thumb in your eye and tell you to pound sand, even the idea of wanting to be accepted for who you are and have the world be a more accommodating place is more of a feminine idea than it is masculine (traditionally)
> 
> I guess my point is, can you ever really win a traditionally man's game using traditionally women's rules ?
> 
> DeniseO also wrote, "It's the simple fact the men take, push, lead, assume, direct, teach, advise across almost all areas of life, with impunity. When or if a woman steps out of the "mold" she's quickly set straight, told where she needs to be, called a ***** (often by other women) when the men are being called sir in the same position or situation." and I think that is a big part of it.
> 
> To that I would respond that as DeniseO also said, women are often the problem as much as men, but because of that I think it might be fair to say that women are ultimately the WHOLE problem, because is it really a man's responsibility to fix this ? Isn't that part of the problem, that a woman might wait for a man to fix everything ?
> 
> Even allowing a man to be in a position to decide that a woman will or won't be treated fairly is allowing him being in charge. Someone above (I forget who, and I paraphrase for effect) said that on his boat the women are encouraged to do this and that, to take the helm, etc ... isn't that the whole problem, no matter what she's doing, he's still the one in charge! He's still making the decisions, what if he woke up tomorrow and decided he didn't like how it was going and started making different decisions, or what if the man wasn't sexist 99.99% of the time but still was sexist the 0.01% of the time that it actually mattered ?
> 
> I'm not even sure where I'm going with this except that I don't think a woman's problem is a man when it comes to sexism, no matter how she might be treated. They call it "taking charge" because it is TAKEN, not because it is given, and men who put themselves in charge don't wait around for it they just do it, it is as much about independence and daring as anything.
> 
> Zeehag, DeniseO, and others get respect here from men and women alike, that's a simple fact. They are independent people and I don't think any man here would believe for a moment that their strings are being pulled by anyone. No man gave them that right to be independent, I'm sure they just woke up one day and took it, the same as anyone in command of their own boat, and that's how it works no matter who you are.


You said it much better than I could.. Not to call out Denise, but when I read her post my first impression was that it highlighted the inherent differences between men and women.

Stereotypes exist because they have a basis in fact and reality. The problem arises when you discriminate against an individual because of general stereotypes. It does not mean the general stereotypes are not accurate.


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## bljones

wind_magic said:


> I guess my point is, can you ever really win a traditionally man's game using traditionally women's rules ?


Show me a game where there's two sets of rules. The only possible example i can think of is golf, where there are two sets of tees, which doesn't mean ****e if you can't putt.

Look, I get the whole big picture "take" vs. "give" argument, but why should one sex have to take what has been given to the other sex for free, simply for having a pulse, like the right to vote or equal pay for equal work?


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## Minnewaska

There is not a woman among the 1100 people that work for me that isn't paid exactly what a male is paid for doing the same job, with the same experience.

There are many women that take lesser paying jobs because they have more flexibility to get kids off the bus, etc. A male in that job gets paid the same. In at least one case, its the same job, but she only works 4 days per week, so she gets 80% of the pay for the job. 

Some of the comparisons are flawed. So, on average, the higher paying jobs probably have more men in them, but not at all exclusively. The women are paid the same, if they are doing the same job. In my last senior hire, I intentionally said it would be nice to have another woman on the team. Of the qualified applicants, they were 5 to 1, male. I hired a woman because she was the best of them. If she wasn't, I wouldn't have.

Anecdotally, we had a female that was the President of one of our subsidiaries. Men got along fine with her, but always watched their backs. Women hated her.

Want another? I know of a woman on a board of directors that fails to show up for most meetings. The only reason she hasn't been fired is because they are concerned over not finding another woman for the seat. True story.


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## Minnewaska

bljones said:


> Show me a game where there's two sets of rules. The only possible example i can think of is golf, where there are two sets of tees, which doesn't mean ****e if you can't putt.
> 
> Look, I get the whole big picture "take" vs. "give" argument, but why should one sex have to take what has been given to the other sex for free, simply for having a pulse, like the right to vote or equal pay for equal work?


If the putting analogy were good, there wouldn't be a different set of tees.

I once played with a woman in my foursome that played from the white tees, like the three men. She won. If you can do the job, you get the creds. If you can't, it's not always because mommy and daddy put pink ribbons in your hair. Some people win, some lose and it just isn't always fair.


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## bljones

Okay, so let's get back to sailing. Minnewaska, earlier you mention that it is no big deal for your wife to be on the bow handling the anchor, because you have a power windlass so there is no sexism in the roles...
...how about before you had a windlass- were you on the bow heaving and hauling, or were you stroking the throttle?


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## bljones

Minnewaska said:


> There are many women that take lesser paying jobs because they have more flexibility to get kids off the bus, etc.


Which is a great example of sexism- why is it HER job to pick up the kids off the bus? Why does SHE have to take time off work? Even in households where incomes are equal, and where both parties have hour flexibility, it usual does fall to the wife to take time off to pick up the kids, etc.

It's our knee-jerk response to say "No,I'm not sexist, it's just...." - but we are. It may not be overt or intentional, but we are. I'm guilty of it. And i get called on it. It just strikes me that our nautical world is more accepting of sexism than the world at large, maybe because it is a predominantly male environment.


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## Minnewaska

bljones said:


> Okay, so let's get back to sailing. Minnewaska, earlier you mention that it is no big deal for your wife to be on the bow handling the anchor, because you have a power windlass so there is no sexism in the roles...
> ...how about before you had a windlass- were you on the bow heaving and hauling, or were you stroking the throttle?


In fact, it was me. My father made me do it. Since she's been around, we've always had a windlass.

Maybe he was kid-ist


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## Minnewaska

bljones said:


> Which is a great example of sexism- why is it HER job to pick up the kids off the bus? Why does SHE have to take time off work?......


Why is it not? The fact that more women assume this role does not prove they are forced into it. When I had little kids, I brought them to school in the morning, because my wife had to be to work too early. However, I can absolutely guarantee that she felt a need to do so, more than I.

To this day, she feels like she has to 'be there'. No one is telling her to.


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## bljones

Minnewaska said:


> To this day, she feels like she has to 'be there'. No one is telling her to.


But you're also not telling her that she doesn't have to, because you will. If you don't do it, she has to, so saying she isn't "forced" into it isn't accurate. When you have to do something because somebody else feels it's not their job, you're being forced to do it.


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## kcblues57

Well, this thread got my attention. Personally I don't think the question should be "is sailing sexist" but instead should be "why should I give a flying flip if it's sexist?" Nobody is stopping me from buying a boat and filling that hole in the water with lots of my hard-earned money, so who cares if the guy at the marina assumes my husband is the captain? Although for the record, I've never had the sense anyone at our marina sees me as anything but an equal. 

When I was in high school and my friends told me the boys don't like smart girls, I graduated top of my class anyway. When my male co-worker said he'd never work for a woman, I earned the manager position anyway--and lo and behold, he actually would work for a woman! My husband is physically-challenged so I'm the deck monkey and as middle-aged and out of shape as I am, I can still wrestle everything into submission. One of the things I love about sailing is the sense of community, that we're all looking out for each other, and it doesn't matter whether that help comes from a man or a woman if it means your bow is saved from leaving a dent in the dock. 

Peace & Equality.


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## Minnewaska

bljones said:


> But you're also not telling her that she doesn't have to, because you will. .....


You really seem to want to believe your own story, but its simply one sided. Yes, I had told her she didn't have to. She still wants to.

You're the one having a hard time believing there actually could be equality. Which is a huge reason why there isn't.


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## Minnewaska

kcblues57 said:


> .....One of the things I love about sailing is the sense of community, that we're all looking out for each other, and it doesn't matter whether that help comes from a man or a woman......


This has been exactly my experience and a significant reason we love sailing.


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## bljones

Minnewaska said:


> You really seem to want to believe your own story, but its simply one sided. .


I'm not telling the story- I'm simply listening to you. I work with the information given, and with the statements you have made.


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## bljones

Minnewaska said:


> You're the one having a hard time believing there actually could be equality. Which is a huge reason why there isn't.


I'm the problem?

Wow, even my ego can't take credit for this one.
But thanks for admitting that there is no equality, Mr. "[Life] just isn't always fair"

Waitaminnit, weren't you the guy arguing a page or so or three back that there is equality? Something about everyone who works for you getting paid the same wage, whether male or female, for the same work?


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## bljones

Minnewaska said:


> In fact, it was me. My father made me do it. Since she's been around, we've always had a windlass.


Always a power windlass?


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## Minnewaska

blj, are you trying to score a date (i already have one) or just win some self defined debate?

Have the final word. You're boring me and this is destined for OT as its going.


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## bljones

Minnewaska, relax. When you use personal examples and personal anecdotes you open yourself up to scrutiny. If you and/or your positions can't stand scrutiny, or you don't have the tools or skills to defend them successfully, don't slam the guy on the other side of the debate. 

After all, not all of us can always win- life isn't always fair, right?

Thanks for the last word.


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## deniseO30

someone say last word? LOL


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## wind_magic

deniseO30 said:


> someone say last word? LOL


We have fun over in off topic, but we can never dress everybody up and go anywhere. See what we did to this thread in herSailNet ? This is why we never have any nice stuff in our forum.


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## sailordave

My experience has been that MEN are the majority. And SOME boats/owners/crew are patronizing towards women crew. Hot stuff race boats are more often than not the culprits here. Sometimes this gets better once the female has proved herself. 
Other boats, (mine, most of the people I hang w/) aren't like this; if you know what you're doing, then you've got a job. I'm not going to step in and "help the little girl" grind/tail/etc. unless she's doing it wrong. But that applies to anyone. 
Admiral is more than willing to take on galley duty, but only b/c sometimes that's what's needed and she can do it well. I also try to get her to do as much of the actual sailing as possible; she stood watch at night, offshore by herself! Okay, I was sleeping in the cockpit, but still....
Bottom line is if a woman wants to sail and has the desire she'll find a boat that will take her on as an equal. Just don't get offended when we whiz off the stern.


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## northoceanbeach

How are winches and handles designed for men? 

If you go to the sore they come in different sizes. So pik the size that's appropriate for you. Also pick a boat that you can handle. An average woman weighs about 160 these days? No, kidding. An average sailing woman weighs maybe 125? To a man's 175 and is 6 inches shorter? Than she doesn't new as big of a boat. Her clothes are smaller so weigh less, she new less calories so less food storage. Smaller boat. Less forces in the sail, easier to use the winches.


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## deniseO30

the most difficult thing I've encountered with other women on my boat is getting them to understand "low gear" is the other way she's cranking and that it doesn't have to go around in a full circle. Once a girl gets it "look out guys" is what I say!


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## wind_magic

northoceanbeach said:


> How are winches and handles designed for men?
> 
> If you go to the sore they come in different sizes. So pik the size that's appropriate for you. Also pick a boat that you can handle. An average woman weighs about 160 these days? No, kidding. An average sailing woman weighs maybe 125? To a man's 175 and is 6 inches shorter? Than she doesn't new as big of a boat. Her clothes are smaller so weigh less, she new less calories so less food storage. Smaller boat. Less forces in the sail, easier to use the winches.


In my own defense, I did say designed for men, but I thought it was obvious that I meant that the default winches installed on a production boat were ones that were designed for men. Reading what I wrote I admit it may have not been obvious to everyone.


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## zeehag

rodlmao.

all this pukky about smaller bs...bs bs bs bs....

in order to get thru a glass ceiling, which is what women do the days, as everything except home ec and nursing and teaching are man jobs, wear a helmet with a pointy top and jump high. it works....the glass breaks and you have your experience.

if i can do this with bad hands in a 41 ft formosa, ANYONE can do it...
doesnt need a smaller boat---gotta laugh some more on that posting---

and WHO is the small man who said we are smaller than .....rodlmao.....i am prolly bigger than you are--

there are small female sailors who are stronger than many men, and there are large women in sailboats who are waaaayyy stronger than many men---is not a strength contest--is like the glass ceiling----women face glass ceilings all the time and still win....jst get a sharper spike on that helmet---

as women have better reflexes than do men, have better eyesight than do most men, and the other lil things that make us special--and dont forget the weight lifting---men get guts from drinking--women get guts from carrying around big heavy things they push out into the world after 9 months....
and women can multitask, whereas most males cannot-----

who cares who picks up the kids after school--i made mine walk home...he is a boy--he can handle it..lol...i walked home from school--no reason my kid shouldnt also walk home from school...alone. good thing he is 40 and i dont have to go there anymore..i have a brother in law who is a bohunk---cannot do anything but is gorgeous--exactly what my sister wished for--a stay at home dad, aka, mr mom. 

we can argue forever on the benefits of being a woman vs being a male----rodlmao.....

but--we be sailing, and we rock.....yes , sailing, sports car racing, and some other stuff are sexist by design. is all good--is why we have those spikey helmets.....

anyone can do anything that indvidual wants to do. is a beautiful world....


so, did i get the last word?????


----------



## Minnewaska

zeehag said:


> ....as women have better reflexes than do men, have better eyesight than do most men, and the other lil things that make us special--and dont forget the weight lifting---men get guts from drinking--women get guts from carrying around big heavy things they push out into the world after 9 months....
> and women can multitask, whereas most males cannot-----
> 
> so, did i get the last word?????


I highly doubt you will with such obviously sexist comments as these.


----------



## zeehag

minnie--i am quoting medical journals...lol

speaking of sexist, you are rather defensive ........

do you ever have a light hearted moment with light hearted banter?????
mebbe humor is a stranger here.....more sexism, as males seem to think humor is only for males.....rodlmao.


----------



## Minnewaska

How much more lighthearted were you hoping for than the smiley at the end of the sentence?


----------



## zeehag

sooooooo........who gets last word--i made mine as not to be last..lol... and i got a bite...

flowers to ye, minnie---

ladies-happy momms day today....and i didnt say it for may 10. momms day in mexico.....(i get 2 i am SPECIAL...lol)


----------



## Minnewaska




----------



## zeehag

too bad there isnt a flowers smiley..i like those...


----------



## Argyle38

zeehag said:


> as women have better reflexes than do men, have better eyesight than do most men, and the other lil things that make us special--and dont forget the weight lifting---men get guts from drinking--women get guts from carrying around big heavy things they push out into the world after 9 months....
> and women can multitask, whereas most males cannot-----





zeehag said:


> minnie--i am quoting medical journals...lol


And when "jameswilson29" said very similar things earlier in the thread, he had people jumping all over him. And his statements were far less provocative than these.

Is it only ok to quote medical journals when the results show an advantage to women?


----------



## zeehag

most males with high insecurity complex factors will find these bits of info problematic...rodlmao.


----------



## Argyle38

zeehag said:


> most males with high insecurity complex factors will find these bits of info problematic...rodlmao.


As do insecure females when they are told they are smaller, weaker and less aggressive, on average of course.


----------



## northoceanbeach

Minnewaska said:


> How much more lighthearted were you hoping for than the smiley at the end of the sentence?


A smiley with a tongue. Maybe she thought you were tainting her.

What's laughable about smaller people getting smaller boats? Just because some woman are bigger most are not. If I weighed 300 pounds I would need a bigger boat, so I assume if I were shorter, a boat with 5'10" standing room would be comfortable but for someone 6' that's cramped.

Do most women not eat less? That's a good thing. I hate eating and storing and cooking on the boat so if you can get away with less that's good. It's all good actually. Smaller hosts are cheaper, easier to maneuver, less maintenance and tey still sail. You can do whatever you want on the right 32 footer as a 40 footer.

My dog is a corgi. She is short so she needs a smaller kennel than a lab.

This isn't about hither women can do in a boat what men can do, but whether they are held back from doing so by a boys club mentality which I do not think is too bad in sailing compared to maybe some other things.


----------



## zeehag

northoceanbeach---you try cruising on a tiny under 40 ft boat...aint happening with me--i chose 41 ft as it is big enough for my maine **** cat and me..has 6'4 headroom and real sized beds... yummmmy teakwood interior and lots of room for stowing lots of food and water for a looong trip of over 20 miles lol.....
considering i make my passages over 200 miles in length,which takes me about 2 weeks on occasion, a tiny boat wouldnt do me much good, now, wood it....

the boat must fit the needs and purpose, not the size of the individual sailing her....
my 5'6 male friend sails a 85 ft schooner..by your reckoning, he should be sailing a 28 ft sloop...rodlmao.


argyle must be a male...rodlmao..


----------



## Minnewaska

zeehag said:


> ....i chose 41 ft as it is big enough for my maine **** cat and me....
> 
> argyle must be a male...rodlmao..


Not sure that counting the bowsprit is fair when calling out the point on whether a boat is big enough or too big inside. Doesn't the Formosa 41 have a LWL just over 30ft?

rodlmao? I know roflmao. Must be girl thing.


----------



## zeehag

Minnewaska said:


> Not sure that counting the bowsprit is fair when calling out the point on whether a boat is big enough or too big inside. Doesn't the Formosa 41 have a LWL just over 30ft?
> 
> rodlmao? I know roflmao. Must be girl thing.


rolling on DECK laughing my ass off??? i dont have floors..i am on board 24/7/365....rodlmao.

my boat may have only a 30 something foot waterl;ine but overall is just under 50 ft....bowsprit is only 7 ft overhang...lod is 40.9 ft. huge room inside and decent sailing ability -- is a perfect cruiser. 
you shoul d do beter research on formosa/ct/hardin seawolf 41s....roDlmao.:laugher


----------



## JennyWren

northoceanbeach said:


> This isn't about hither women can do in a boat what men can do, but whether they are held back from doing so by a boys club mentality which I do not think is too bad in sailing compared to maybe some other things.


Not all sexism is of the degree of holding women back from doing things they'd like to do. The only sexism I've experienced in sailing, as described in my earlier posts, rates as "irritant", not "major impediment" but it's still sexism in the sense of treating males and females differently on the basis of gender.

In my opinion, its not correct to say that "any woman who wants it badly enough can overcome and find ways to become a sailor" = "there is no sexism in the field of sailing".

In my personal experience, but bearing in mind that I don't speak for the entire sisterhood and that I get to decide who steps on my boat, it is true that it's not too bad in sailing compared to many many other things.

(Zee - not a smiley, but just for you: @>--'--,-- )


----------



## zeehag

i think that 2 males walking into a propeller shop in lost angeles would have difficulty in talking the price down to less than half retail while wearing bathing suits and gulping the beer of the workers and wandering around the area....we did...395usd down to 125usd....sexism????? mebbe....

male obstructing education of female learning or trying to learn navigation techniques--yes it happens,,i know that one well...lol

kids of both genders learning to sail with unbiased teacher---none there----

it all depends on what you are doing and where you are dong it and how and in what manner sexism is used--

can be fun to gain parts for much less......


----------



## Minnewaska

zeehag said:


> rolling on DECK laughing my ass off??? i dont have floors..i am on board 24/7/365....rodlmao.


That's pretty cute, I like it. I really had no idea what you meant. Sort of defeats the purpose of a shortcut though.



> my boat may have only a 30 something foot waterl;ine but overall is just under 50 ft....bowsprit is only 7 ft overhang...lod is 40.9 ft. huge room inside and decent sailing ability -- is a perfect cruiser.
> you shoul d do beter research on formosa/ct/hardin seawolf 41s....roDlmao.:laugher


Since my understanding of the LWL seem right, I don't think I needed much more research. The point is, how comparable is your 41ft to the typical 41. I think to be fair, given it's various overhangs, it really is more comparable to most sub 40s. That was my only point.

I dig the look of your boat, nevertheless.


----------



## LinekinBayCD

JennyWren said:


> Not all sexism is of the degree of holding women back from doing things they'd like to do. The only sexism I've experienced in sailing, as described in my earlier posts, rates as "irritant", not "major impediment" but it's still sexism in the sense of treating males and females differently on the basis of gender.
> 
> In my opinion, its not correct to say that "any woman who wants it badly enough can overcome and find ways to become a sailor" = "there is no sexism in the field of sailing".
> 
> In my personal experience, but bearing in mind that I don't speak for the entire sisterhood and that I get to decide who steps on my boat, it is true that it's not too bad in sailing compared to many many other things.
> 
> (Zee - not a smiley, but just for you: @>--'--,-- )


The issues in this thread keep bringing me back to what I believe are some of the inherent difference between men and women. Although there are probably many stereotypical male attributes I don't consider a woman's reference to them, even the negative ones as sexist. Im Ok with the stereotypes, negative and positive. For example, the stereotypical man's reluctance to ask for help with directions to me is not a negative. It's an indication of tenacity and independence.

I don't think most men would even acknowledge male sexism. From a males perspective to acknowledge obstacles is counterproductive. It provides an excuse for failure. If you ignore them they are diminished. It's better from a performance standpoint to pretend obstacles don't exist. When you are sick before a big game you ignore it. It doesn't really matter in sports but in real life it can matter.

The difference between men and women are a good thing. I'm definitely not for women becoming more like men and women more like men.


----------



## zeehag

Minnewaska said:


> That's pretty cute, I like it. I really had no idea what you meant. Sort of defeats the purpose of a shortcut though.
> 
> Since my understanding of the LWL seem right, I don't think I needed much more research. The point is, how comparable is your 41ft to the typical 41. I think to be fair, given it's various overhangs, it really is more comparable to most sub 40s. That was my only point.
> 
> I dig the look of your boat, nevertheless.


my boat has a lot more under watwr than many today have---is 6'6 deep with a 2 ft wide base of keel, keel is full and deep...must be able to sail decently to drag allt hat stuf theu the water at a decent speed.....


----------



## zeehag

Minnewaska said:


> That's pretty cute, I like it. I really had no idea what you meant. Sort of defeats the purpose of a shortcut though.
> 
> Since my understanding of the LWL seem right, I don't think I needed much more research. The point is, how comparable is your 41ft to the typical 41. I think to be fair, given it's various overhangs, it really is more comparable to most sub 40s. That was my only point.
> 
> I dig the look of your boat, nevertheless.


my boat has a lot more under water than many today have---is 6'6 deep and ft wide at base, the keel is full and deep...must be able to sail decently to drag all hat stuf thru the water at a decent speed.....


----------



## JennyWren

LinekinBayCD said:


> From a males perspective to acknowledge obstacles is counterproductive. It provides an excuse for failure. If you ignore them they are diminished.


From this (female) engineer's perspective, acknowledging obstacles (defining the problem) is not always but often the first step in charting a course around them (defining the solution). It's a view that seems to be shared by male colleagues.  Depends how big the obstacle is, of course.

A few men I know see male sexism. One colleague is very sensitive to double standards where women appear to get away with behaviour and speech that is not OK from men. Another didn't think sexism was a big deal until he found himself excluded from freelance work for a particular customer because they preferred females. I think he was surprised at his own reaction.

On the other hand ... I asked spouse the other night whether he felt offended by a current beer ad on TV that seems to paint men as bumbling idiots. His response was that he didn't think the ad was aimed at all men, just bumbling idiot beer drinkers.


----------



## wind_magic

JennyWren said:


> On the other hand ... I asked spouse the other night whether he felt offended by a current beer ad on TV that seems to paint men as bumbling idiots. His response was that he didn't think the ad was aimed at all men, just bumbling idiot beer drinkers.


Those aren't as bad as the "my husband is an idiot" advertisements designed to sell things to women, they all seem to have the same scriipt writer ...

Husband doing something stupid
Smiling wife waves around new product husband has never heard of
Wife saves the day
Husband does one last stupid thing
Wife shrugs her shoulders, tilts her head, and smiles into the camera with that "we all know my husband is a moron, but it's our little secret" look on her face.

I think part of the reason for the male sexism commercials is that there's just nobody left that writers can make fun of without being accused of "ism". They know that husbands aren't going to complain.

(yes, scriipt was spelled wrong intentionally, Sailnet won't allow the real spelling)


----------



## LinekinBayCD

JennyWren said:


> From this (female) engineer's perspective, acknowledging obstacles (defining the problem) is not always but often the first step in charting a course around them (defining the solution). It's a view that seems to be shared by male colleagues.  Depends how big the obstacle is, of course.
> 
> A few men I know see male sexism. One colleague is very sensitive to double standards where women appear to get away with behaviour and speech that is not OK from men. Another didn't think sexism was a big deal until he found himself excluded from freelance work for a particular customer because they preferred females. I think he was surprised at his own reaction.
> 
> On the other hand ... I asked spouse the other night whether he felt offended by a current beer ad on TV that seems to paint men as bumbling idiots. His response was that he didn't think the ad was aimed at all men, just bumbling idiot beer drinkers.


As far as obsticals I'm referring more to physical ones, sick, injured, tired, cold, etc. not technical issues necessarily. In a work invironment I'm robably referring more to attitude, such as when facing a nearly impossible task but approaching it as if it was doable. Using a sports analogy it would be playing as hard as possible to the last second in spite of being down 50 to zip.


----------



## zeehag

linked in--i would call it more like cpr---you go and do it and succeed --or fail....but ye dont give up or quit.

that isnt sexist--is commonsensist...lol

is a grande thing that sailing is sexist--we ladies can don skimpies and go buy parts in some places--ie, specialty places, like propellers shops, for less than half brand new price....lol....is a GOOD thing...
also, for opening csx railroad bridges--a soft sexy lady voice produces results whereas a man voice yields delay. i learned that in louisiana.....lol


so, ladies--donot diss sexism--it works in our favor more often than not.....rodlmao


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## northoceanbeach

I could totally see that working in Louisiana.


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## smackdaddy

JennyWren said:


> ...bumbling idiot beer drinker...


 You rang?


----------



## zeehag

northoceanbeach said:


> I could totally see that working in Louisiana.


my experience was in lost angeles in the fascist state of kalifornikation....wilmington propeller, actually--the prop was spozed to be 385 usd...we drank their beer, ate their food, and got the prop for 125 usd. we dun gud.

works everywhere, as most businesses with boats as a center are owned and operated by males. some changes have been made, but, sailing is still very very sexist. women--just go to the specialty shops wearing skimpies--bathing suit--skimpies--and see how well you do and report back here on this thread....

yes a few females have done well and shown em how--however, it is still centered around the male ...not a problem---skimpy still works everywhere...not a problem. i have that....


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## KeelHaulin

Watched this on CNN last night; if you have a DVR set it to record 'mainsail' on CNN; it usually repeats a few times. Otherwise; check the link below and following segments of that episode...

Can female sailors make history? - CNN.com Video

Women have participated in large scale events like the VOR & Americas Cup, in the past, unfortunately they did not achieve their goals. Dennis Connors defeated the America True (all women) syndicate to challenge Australia for the Americas Cup; and the women who crewed the VOR fell out of contention because they lacked enough offshore experience/training (one of the former crew explains this on the Mainsail video).


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## Capt Len

Is this the ubiquitous gender bias expressed by undeveloped and unfulfilled id or just a blatant expression of envy (or use of)of primary or secondary sexual features ? Often threatened self esteem needs the cover. If we all did our own thing and flaunted what we got , social mores would have a more level playing field and talent/skill/accomplishment would have more value.


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## zeehag

funny how the america 3 team had faster times than dennis connor so he bough this position.didnt hear how much he actually paid for it, tho. ..is always nice to be in the right hot tub at the right time....with the tactitions of 3 ac teams in 1995......hhmmmmm....

and sailing has traditionally been a sexist pass-time.. this can be used in our favor..


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## KeelHaulin

I think Connor also needed to redeem himself after losing the first AC ever in it's history.


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## LinekinBayCD

zeehag said:


> linked in--i would call it more like cpr---you go and do it and succeed --or fail....but ye dont give up or quit.
> 
> that isnt sexist--is commonsensist...lol
> 
> is a grande thing that sailing is sexist--we ladies can don skimpies and go buy parts in some places--ie, specialty places, like propellers shops, for less than half brand new price....lol....is a GOOD thing...
> also, for opening csx railroad bridges--a soft sexy lady voice produces results whereas a man voice yields delay. i learned that in louisiana.....lol
> 
> so, ladies--donot diss sexism--it works in our favor more often than not.....rodlmao


Viva la difference


----------



## Ajax_MD

smackdaddy said:


> You rang?


Brilliant.


----------



## sailortrash

I would say there are a lot of sailors out there that are. Although I have to admit that after 60k+ offshore miles, My friend Christina bridge is still a better sailor than I. Sailing like alot of things in life can be learned but some people are just gifted.


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## JulieMor

I'm coming late to the party...

As my kids were growing up. I often looked at the whole sports thing and how many men (boys) participate in a given sport vs. how many women (girls). Men usually outnumber the women. When I looked at which gender created the sport, most have been created by men. So it made perfect sense more men would participate.

When I was growing up there were no sport teams for girls. That alone will take a lot of girls/women out of the ranks of participation. Today that's no longer true so more girls are getting involved in sports at an early age. And they often stay involved. 

Even though doors have been opening up for girls in the sports arena, there still exists gender roles that parents, family, friends, teachers (consciously or sub-consciously) steer the children towards, depending on what's between their legs at birth. And if parents are honest, many will admit they have dreams of their kids growing up to fulfill society's image of the perfect man and the perfect woman. We humans do like conformity. It makes things easier for us, but not always for the child.

I doubt women will ever equal the numbers in sports as men. But if we just stopped putting people in a box based on what we see, there will be less obstacles for those who want to participate in activities society doesn't deem "normal" for them. 

But what is "normal" anyway? That's easy. Since no two people are exactly alike, normal is unique.


----------



## aprilsails

I, too, am late to the party but as a sailor in the younger generation I want to jump in.

I think you will see more and more women owning their own boat. I have sailed since I was 14 and owned my own dinghy between ages 16 and 26. (29 now and am preparing to by my first cruising boat). In the past year, my hubby has decided to learn how to sail properly so that we can charter together, however, I will likely be the Captain for a long time.

I was lucky to have spent 2 years crewing on a Tall Ship with a female captain and all senior female crew (XO and 2 WO). In 2003 the only male senior officer was the cook (If you want to see mixed gender roles).


----------



## desert rat

Julie Male comment My heroes Jean-claud Killey and Picabo Street Giant slolum and downhill. Killy aint pretty.


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## Sal Paradise

I think sailing by its very nature looks like a dictatorship. The "captain" is barking orders and yelling " tacking!" and so forth. When docking under less than ideal circumstances there can be yelling and stress. Things today are so power driven and automated that people in general just aren't used to hearing that and seeing it. Its what a group of people working together looks like. 

Its a well known fact that we invent a narrative to fit what we see, a narrative based on our prejudices. The bumbling dictatorial male dufus has been drummed into all of our heads in every commercial since 1960. It just isn't helping anyone. I can totally see how in such a toxic environment women much prefer getting training from female instructors. Takes the narrative away. 


There will always be people of both sexes who exploit the "battle of the sexes" narrative or some other narrative. But really enlightened people ought to know that the person who is managing the boat, male or female , black or white, whatever ...is yelling to be heard and not to dominate and it really doesn't matter to the boat what is between their legs. Its what is in their brain and their heart, no? Its making the boat sail well and get home safe. 

In that sense, I would have to say that people are sexist, but sailing can't be.


----------



## JulieMor

Sal, what you said about commercials is why I mute them when watching TV. Then I usually get up and do something until the show comes back on.

But if you pay attention to gender roles in commercials, it's very clear cut. Women cleaning the house, men in the garage or yard. The women are always smiling, using those amazing cleaning products. Kinda reminds me of _The Stepford Wives_.

Title IX gets a lot of credit for female participation in sports but when you look at the statistics, you'll see it started before Title IX was actually enforced, during the Clinton years. It started during the Women's Liberation years when women had to get out of that house with those amazing cleaning products and live life.

There's a park adjacent to our property with a baseball field. Come spring we see kid's baseball teams fill the field. It's usually the girls. When they grow up they won't think twice about getting out there with their kids, be they boys or girls, and showing them how to play baseball. The use of those amazing cleaning products will, hopefully by then, no longer have gender attached to them.


----------



## Sal Paradise

Good point about the cleaning products Julie. You are right. 

Ahh, but life is messier than that. Mine is anyway. No woman ever appeared to clean up my life or house... 

I am sure you are right about the sports too, although I can't relate to it. I was poor, --- my Dad was laid off when the Ford plant closed here so I always working the night shift in high school to support my parents.....so I never did any organized sports. I used to imagine how great it would be to do sports...But I see the kids today, all they do is organized sports, girls as well as boys.. 

BTW ..I'm doing pretty well now though, and although I did coach little league for 7 years when our kids were growing up , my wife and I spent way more time with them on the water or hiking in the mountains than on any sports fields. We kind of feel sorry for our friends running running to every sports game and semi final this and that.. all over the country. We pass them on our way to the boat. 

And that I have never regretted.


----------



## kjango

I certainly hope so & I'm not kidding .....especially when I hear some gal bemoan the fact that most boat owners are men....duh Having said that.....when I see some gal Like Samantha Davies competing at the highest level of sailing I like oh yeah.....you rock . My question is ....Is mindless bitching sexist ????


----------



## WouldaShoulda

Probably.

But it's nothing you should worry your pretty little head over, Honey!!

:laugher


----------



## Donna_F

Did Woulda just call kjango "honey"?


----------



## Coquina

*Sailing* is not sexist, not being a person and all, but some people can be. WomanShip always struck me as insulting on one level. I used to make a living teaching people to sail and fly. I taught women and girls with no issues. The actual Womenship instructors/skippers were all great, it was just the concept that being male meant I could not do well teaching women bugged me. Kind of like "ManShip" where no women need apply would go over 

Anyway, one day Womenship needs a SSB installed THAT DAY for an offshore trip leaving the next day and my shop has the only one in Annapolis. The women they sent over to arrange the install was gritting her teeth the whole time. It was VERY obvious she was spitting mad at having to rely on men to do something she could not do. When we got to the boat the situation was 180 degrees changed. The female skipper was afraid we wouldn't finish the job on time and ran up to the bar to get us snacks and drinks while we worked  They left on time


----------



## JulieMor

Coquina said:


> *Sailing* is not sexist, not being a person and all, but some people can be. WomanShip always struck me as insulting on one level. I used to make a living teaching people to sail and fly. I taught women and girls with no issues. The actual Womenship instructors/skippers were all great, it was just the concept that being male meant I could not do well teaching women bugged me. Kind of like "ManShip" where no women need apply would go over


A lot of woman prefer being taught by another woman for the simple reason women communicate differently than men. They don't have a problem with men, they just have a problem with the way men communicate.

Of course that is not to say some women don't want to have to rely on men for anything. But I'm not one of them. I mean, I'd love for Chef Dave to teach me how to cook. In turn, I'll teach him how to bend conduit.


----------



## Coquina

I had female flight instructors when I was getting some advanced ratings and never had an issue understanding them. Perhaps they mastered "man-speak" in order to talk to me 

I guess one thing I did that was perhaps female oriented is when I got to function on the boat that was brute-strength related, I would try and point out ways to do it with more brains and less brawn. There is no reason to muscle your boat into 25 knots to get the anchor up if you have a working engine and no reason to break your back getting the anchor loose either.

We did learn real quick with sailing to NOT put husbands and wives on the same boat.
Example:
"Sir, not to be rude but I am a trained instructor and you are a student. Can you please not re-translate everything I tell your wife? Thank you"


----------



## Donna_F

Coquina said:


> I had female flight instructors when I was getting some advanced ratings and never had an issue understanding them. Perhaps they mastered "man-speak" in order to talk to me
> 
> We did learn real quick with sailing to NOT put husbands and wives on the same boat.
> Example:
> "Sir, not to be rude but I am a trained instructor and you are a student. Can you please not re-translate everything I tell your wife? Thank you"


Joe,

It's not always about the instructor. Sometimes it's so the women can learn in an environment away from their male SO who may, while trying to be helpful by "translating" your instructions, make things more confusing and harder for her to concentrate. Or he may be a yeller and by taking instruction at a women-only school, this gives her an out for not taking the class with him. Everyone is different.

Regardless of the reasons and where they go to learn, I prefer to see women get the instruction any way they can than not getting any and being in a position where they aren't a helpful, contributing part of the boat ownership and operation. Not every woman is strong-willed enough to exert herself and some need more gentle encouragement. Whatever. In the end we all win.


----------



## aprilsails

Coquina said:


> We did learn real quick with sailing to NOT put husbands and wives on the same boat.
> Example:
> "Sir, not to be rude but I am a trained instructor and you are a student. Can you please not re-translate everything I tell your wife? Thank you"


I just completed a week of Intermediate training with my husband and the trainer was complimenting us on getting along very well for the week together. He usually winds up with a lot of screaming husbands and upset wives.

I told the trainer that we were there so he could teach my husband since my husband will always second guess me unless I have someone to back me up. I'm also not a screamer so that helps.

In my experience with sail training on tall ships I found that forceful (loud) male captains turned the teenage girls away from sailing and we would have less female officers in training those years. My best friend really enjoyed sailing until Captain Bob came along and I don't think she's been out on a boat since. In years with gentler male captains or female captains the ratio was closer to 50/50 and occasionally there would be more girls than guys.


----------



## Seaduction

“Nobody will ever win the battle of the sexes. There's too much fraternizing with the enemy.” 

Henry Kissinger quote


----------



## johnnyquest37

I've taught plenty of husband/wife teams. It is important to understand the dynamic of the team when providing this instruction. Is the wife there to learn to be proficient in her own right or is she there because she wants primarily to be an assistant to her husband? Or is she there simply to placate her husband and would never have taken the class without his insistenence. By learning together as a team (especially on their own boat), they have the chance to develop cooperative strategies while under the supervision of the instructor. If the instructor understands the dynamic of the couple and their objectives (both individual and as a team), then the instructor can tailor the instructional approach accordingly 

These roles can be reversed. Once, I had a couple and he was there at the behest of his wife instead of the other way around.


----------



## JulieMor

DRFerron said:


> It's not always about the instructor. Sometimes it's so the women can learn in an environment away from their male SO who may, while trying to be helpful by "translating" your instructions, make things more confusing and harder for her to concentrate.


When a couple brings the dynamics of their relationship into a classroom environment, it can impair the learning process.

And ego needs to be left at the door in any educational environment. _"When you're green, you're growin'. When you're not, you rot."_ No shame in not knowing it all.


----------



## Tallswede

Wife and I went sailing with friends this weekend and a comment from one of them made us chuckle. She asked, do you two ever fight? You're so nice to each other "Hey sweetie would you hold this, please pull that line, okay, we're getting ready to do such and such". "No yelling or screaming, ya'll are weird, too nice"! LOL. I learned, if I want my wife to come out and sail with me, I need to be calm and polite. She enjoys boating as long as the stress level is low. It also makes your guests much more comfortable and willing to help.

Kevin


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## Sal Paradise

When I was in private practice ( I am an architect) for years and I did probably 15 houses a year so I got to meet many many couples who were going through a relatively stressful experience, namely building a house. 

I found it fascinating. The dynamics between husbands and wives vary widely. Sometimes the husband dominates. In some cases the wife dominates. Some fight and argue and some just hum along. The most interesting and enjoyable couples were evenly matched and dynamic. They complimented each other ( not literally), they argued a little, and power switched back and forth in the conversation as they together found answers that added up to more than either of them. They seemed to have fun doing it too. 

I think that's the ideal.


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## LeMerovingian

I am not sure if I am more surprised of a women writing a book on sailing or that women can sail or even that there is women in this forum?

*-I know there is a lady's sections here as I stalk it like a fly at a picnic on a hot summer day. *


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## Coquina

In my experience if the wife sees the husand getting all flustered and yelling the wife assumes he has no clue what the [email protected]@@ he is doing and gets nervous.


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## JulieMor

All this talk about yelling and screaming. I thought sailing was supposed to be fun, relaxing and enjoyable.


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## Coquina

It is for me.Not for everyone. We have all seen the clueless guy screaming at the bewildered wife and kids while he bangs off of 5 different boats and 7 pilings trying to get into a slip.

My wife likes to nap underway so I have perfected the art of low volume boat operations  If I am really good I am tied up or anchored and everyone is still asleep. We sometimes like 0400 departures so we can be in our next port by noon if the weather is going to be roasting hot.


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## AlaskaMC

I think a HUGE part of this is generational and location. My wife and I learned together, separate classes because that is good "best practice" in education. Never take a class with your SO, no mater what the relationship. It allows for different experiences and you can then come back and share and learn even more. We have both insisted on trading all tasks so that we are both comfortable with them all. We can't even imagine "pink and blue" jobs around the boat (or house). It would be insulting (to most men and women) to suggest there is such a thing in our generation and location. 

Living in rougher country, such as remote Alaska, usually flattens the differences between people. When it is -50F and your heater just went out, you don't really care who comes to your assistance. When I go south to larger cities, the gender roll differences REALLY stand out. This may have to do with the unrelenting barrage of media in the bigger markets.

On the "takeover for the gal" front, my wife sees this still on occasion and always points it out to me when it happens. It ALWAYS happens with the older, usually retired, male who is unable to even comprehend that a girl would want to do boy things. When working with guys our age, this never seems to come up.  But then my wife is 6' tall, ex raft guide, and is physically in better shape than most men. I wouldn't try and takeover a task from her either.

On the women only classes, don't assume that all women find that to be the best route. My wife cannot understand why someone would want to learn in a segregated environment and just the add in Sailing Mag bothers her. So to say that women learn better from women as a truism. Not all women agree. Nor do all men want male instructors. Again, not always true. We tend to want the most qualified instructor that is able to teach to our learning styles, vs the one with matching genitalia.

Sorry for the long response but I just had to say that I am so glad that most of what I hear in this thread is really out of date. In other sports these attitudes died a while back on both sides of the argument. Sailing is just a bit stuck in time it seems to me compared to other activities.

Having said that; my daughter was told yesterday in kindergarden that Batman was for boys and why did she have a Batman lunchbox (her pick not ours). So these attitudes of pink and blue are still out there. We just have to do our best to make sure she understands that it is her choice to ignore those that will limit her future. Sometimes I am scared that we "miss" the old ways as a society and are trying to push people back into the rolls that were blurred in the 70-90s. I hope not.


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## Sal Paradise

L_iving in rougher country, such as remote Alaska, usually flattens the differences between people. When it is -50F and your heater just went out, you don't really care who comes to your assistance......my wife is 6' tall, ex raft guide, and is physically in better shape than most men. I wouldn't try and takeover a task from her either._ -AlaskaMC

Sorry, but that just doesn't help the rest of us who _aren't_ married to Deep Woods Barbie.


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## AlaskaMC

Sal Paradise said:


> L_iving in rougher country, such as remote Alaska, usually flattens the differences between people. When it is -50F and your heater just went out, you don't really care who comes to your assistance......my wife is 6' tall, ex raft guide, and is physically in better shape than most men. I wouldn't try and takeover a task from her either._ -AlaskaMC
> 
> Sorry, but that just doesn't help the rest of us who _aren't_ married to Deep Woods Barbie.


I am a very lucky man, I won't argue with that

But Deep Woods Barbie, while very funny, isn't that kinda sexist too?  This stuff is just confusing. I think I am going to go sailing, see if my wife will run the tiller while I grind. Does that make me less manly?


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## Donna_F

AlaskaMC said:


> ...
> 
> On the women only classes, don't assume that all women find that to be the best route. My wife cannot understand why someone would want to learn in a segregated environment and just the add in Sailing Mag bothers her. So to say that women learn better from women as a truism. Not all women agree. Nor do all men want male instructors. Again, not always true. We tend to want the most qualified instructor that is able to teach to our learning styles, vs the one with matching genitalia.


No one said that ALL women want to learn in women-only classes. I would guess, however, that those who do are the ones who sign up for them. Speaking for myself, I was just presenting an argument for their existence. It wasn't something I even considered when I took instruction in: white water kayaking, scuba (to rescue diver), sailing, and any of the other interests I had, I just did it. But, as an instructor, I just want people to learn. However that happens is a good thing. If being in a single-gender class enables them to learn the rules of the road, who cares and what right does anyone else have to judge them for it?



AlaskaMC said:


> Having said that; my daughter was told yesterday in kindergarden that Batman was for boys and why did she have a Batman lunchbox (her pick not ours). ...


I'm 46. I still have the Yellow Submarine lunchbox I carried in elementary school. Someone told me it's worth about $300 now. And I couldn't stand Barbie. Mom used to buy them for me and I'd chuck them out the car window onto the train tracks. Now, my lime green Tonka truck that matched my lime green Easy Bake Oven, loved 'em.


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## AlaskaMC

DRFerron said:


> No one said that ALL women want to learn in women-only classes. I would guess, however, that those who do are the ones who sign up for them. Speaking for myself, I was just presenting an argument for their existence. It wasn't something I even considered when I took instruction in: white water kayaking, scuba (to rescue diver), sailing, and any of the other interests I had, I just did it. But, as an instructor, I just want people to learn. However that happens is a good thing. If being in a single-gender class enables them to learn the rules of the road, who cares and what right does anyone else have to judge them for it?
> 
> I'm 46. I still have the Yellow Submarine lunchbox I carried in elementary school. Someone told me it's worth about $300 now. And I couldn't stand Barbie. Mom used to buy them for me and I'd chuck them out the car window onto the train tracks. Now, my lime green Tonka truck that matched my lime green Easy Bake Oven, loved 'em.


I was just pointing out that there is more than one opinion on women only classes from the women themselves. Some of the commentary earlier in the thread was very harsh on this point. Not your comments by the way.

My girl is more of a mix of both, She likes to wear a princess dress, mudd boots and go fishing. That Yellow Sub lunchbox is a treasure!


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## mebiker

I hope to become a confident sailor! Glad to hear there are many women out there being strong! I just purchased a tartan 37 with my guy & hope we're equals out on the water! It's a beautiful world out there if we can just get along!


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## tdw

AlaskaMC said:


> Having said that; my daughter was told yesterday in kindergarden that Batman was for boys and why did she have a Batman lunchbox (her pick not ours). So these attitudes of pink and blue are still out there. We just have to do our best to make sure she understands that it is her choice to ignore those that will limit her future. Sometimes I am scared that we "miss" the old ways as a society and are trying to push people back into the rolls that were blurred in the 70-90s. I hope not.


Well he did spend an inordinate amount of time hanging out with sweet wee Robin.

btw ... did you know that up until the Victorian era pink was for boys and blue for girls ? Strange tale but true. No wonder people get confused about their sexuality.

Interestingly enough while me and the Wombet have been known to exchange the odd cross word, and nothing cryptic about that at all, when we have attended classes together we have had zero problems, indeed we become a very effective team.


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## AlaskaMC

tdw said:


> Interestingly enough while me and the Wombet have been known to exchange the odd cross word, and nothing cryptic about that at all, when we have attended classes together we have had zero problems, indeed we become a very effective team.


That is very cool and kinda rare. For us a big part of it has honestly been the situation at the time. One of us watch kids while the other goes for the class for a few days. With really small ones and no family nearby it is sometimes the only option. We are a great team in the course of doing, but we have very different learning styles and having recognized it long ago we have avoided it.

Pink for boys huh?  Just kidding. I hate the gender identity as color identity thing.

And yes, poor Robin. What exactly does a "Ward" have to do?


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## mebiker

I can so relate to all of this being that I've always been a tomboy, always disliked pink & frilly(also never had a Barbie) & know that I can do many things just as good as men can. Don't get me wrong I love men. I just don't feel beneath them.

I hope to meet many of you strong minded women on my cruising adventures!


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## wingNwing

I hate the *concept* of women-only classes, just as I strongly disagree with the concept of gender-segregated elementary and junior-high school classes. It's just too easy to go from "different" learning styles to lesser learning. Sorry, but last time we tried "separate but equal" in education in this country it didn't turn out so well, ya know?

That said, of course there are different styles in learning, individual differences not gender-caused. I'm an engineer and a visual learner and if a class doesn't include at least one vector diagram I probably won't retain much. Not because I'm a girl, just because I'm me. Dan, OTOH, doesn't like to work with numbers, even though he has an engineering degree also. 

I'm very pleased that we both learned together, from the same instructor in the same way, from our initial liveaboard/learn-to-sail vacation in the Virgin Islands; to our Coast Guard Aux navigation classes, to our Navy Sailing adventures. For us, that meant there was no debate of "my instructor said to do it this way" when his instructor said to do it a different way in a new or challenging situation.


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## Coquina

Be careful about letting the women learn too much about how the boat works! I know one poor guy whose wife ran off with the boat when he was ashore doing something and is now halfway around the world with it


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## Minnewaska

Not sure what point this makes, you decide.

I just moved my daughter into her dorm a couple of weeks back. Her floor has three bathrooms. One Men's, one Women's and one Co-ed. Each have multiple stalls and showers for approx 6 people to be using at once. Interesting liberal Ivy League idea. I swear I wondered if it is really a social experiment, run by a wacky professor.

After a couple of weeks, she says there are really two Men's rooms and one Women's room. The men don't seem to care if there is a woman in the next stall or shower, but the women do and never go in there.

There seem to be some differentiators between genders that are self selected, not imposed.


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## wingNwing

I'm not quite sure where you're going with this point either Minne. The reasons these women have for not wanting to share bathrooms with the guys may come from motivations that do are not relevant to the reasons they may not want to learn sailing together. I'm thinking of body-modesty taboos; or maybe the guys are sloppier, or drunken barfing after frat parties; or who-knows-what. 

And as for learning styles ... how many of the guys here can honestly say that they preferred learning in an environment where they were yelled at? I don't think that's a gender thing, I think its a respect thing.


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## Chilton0585

As long as that book gave directions on how to make the perfect sandwich, it was worth the money.


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## Sal Paradise

wingNwing said:


> I'm not quite sure where you're going with this point either Minne. The reasons these women have for not wanting to share bathrooms with the guys may come from motivations that do are not relevant to the reasons they may not want to learn sailing together. I'm thinking of body-modesty taboos; or maybe the guys are sloppier, or drunken barfing after frat parties; or who-knows-what. .


Fear of being sexually assaulted! Or just good common sense.

Neither of which belong in a this debate. 

Carry on....


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## Minnewaska

No intention to offend. Certainly not making any connection between co-ed bathrooms and sail training preferences. The discussion is over sexism. I just thought it interesting, when presented with an equal opportunity, there was clear self selected choice.


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## Omatako

My wife and I have sailed together for 4 decades. We have attended sailing schools over the years but never on the same course. The reason is simply we have different motives.

For example, I wanted to learn the finer points of celestial navigation (long before the wonders of GPS), she just wanted to learn the meaning of lights so that she would be more confident on a night watch. So we would go to the same school, different course. I would do an diesel engine course, she would do a cooking or victualing course. Is that gender discriminatory? No, I don't believe it is. We concentrate on what we're good at.

I don't subscribe to gender specific courses but I do support couples not being on the same course. Watching a stranger on a course shouting at my wife would be something to behold. And I also know the fact in our relationship that my wife can sail a boat competently and she cooks a meal at sea like nobody else I've met. But she has (self-acknowledged) "no feeling for machinery" - she never notices a change in the note of an engine running or the groan of something wearing or that the boat speed relative to engine revs has dropped.

Neither does she care. That's for me to worry about. And I don't know whether the chicken that defrosted three days ago is going to kill me. That's hers.


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## AlaskaMC

Omatako said:


> My wife and I have sailed together for 4 decades. We have attended sailing schools over the years but never on the same course. The reason is simply we have different motives.
> 
> For example, I wanted to learn the finer points of celestial navigation (long before the wonders of GPS), she just wanted to learn the meaning of lights so that she would be more confident on a night watch. So we would go to the same school, different course. I would do an diesel engine course, she would do a cooking or victualing course. Is that gender discriminatory? No, I don't believe it is. We concentrate on what we're good at.
> 
> I don't subscribe to gender specific courses but I do support couples not being on the same course. Watching a stranger on a course shouting at my wife would be something to behold.


I agree with everything you are saying and it is how my wife and I split up classes. We then try to exchange the information so we can both have knowledge in the area if the other is indisposed. We also both take core courses as some info we both need.

Then there is the problem of watching someone yell at their own wife (or husband in a class). I teach many classes and one of the most consistent pieces of negative feedback has been when a couple has been enrolled and one or the other (or both) bickered at each other, or corrected each other constantly. My point is that couples often don't perceive how their interaction affects others, especially in the context of a instructional setting for the other students. I have had many students pull me aside, or put in formal feedback that the class would have been much more enjoyable if it wasn't for "that opinionated jerk" or that "nagging spouse". Of course I will mention that EVERYONE in this thread that has stated they have a great time taking classes with their SO would never do this so I am talking about others here! Just making a point that sometimes what we are used to as everyday interactions between SOs, is not always appropriate in a classroom setting. Sorry for the rant, but if you have seen this as the teacher it is hard to get folks to recognize it happening. For the record, it also seems most common that younger folks are more offended at the relationship behavior of older couples and that is again a generational thing.


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## JulieMor

Imagine this...

There are two boats. Each has a race proven race crew. Each crew member has competed at a comparable level as the other. On paper, there is no difference, except one. One boat is crewed by men, the other by women. Who wins? And why?


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## bljones

Assuming both boats are equal, the boat that makes the least mistakes, sailed by the team with the most will, will win. Sex doesn't enter into it, in my mind.


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## mattt

There is an all-female team racing in the Volvo 2014 and they just cleaned everyone's clocks around Fastnet in a prelim. I hope they win the Ocean Race.


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## Minnewaska

JulieMor said:


> Imagine this...
> 
> There are two boats. Each has a race proven race crew. Each crew member has competed at a comparable level as the other. On paper, there is no difference, except one. One boat is crewed by men, the other by women. Who wins? And why?


Just the fact that you would notice that singular difference and ask the question is sexist.


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## Maine Sail

Tim R. said:


> I would not consider sailing sexist as I do not feel women are purposely excluded from sailing.
> 
> Take two people. One man and one woman. Both have the exact same desire to sail. I feel both have the exact same opportunity to sail. There are no obvious exclusions for women.
> 
> Also consider the fact that men and women compete in regattas on equal terms. How many sports do that?


Amen... Not many sports allow for equal competition between men and women.

Baseball, no. Hockey, no. Tennis, no, Soccer, no. Gymnastics, no. Football, no. Rugby, no. Volleyball, no. Golf, no/sorf of? Basketball, no. Swimming, no.

Sailing, YES and Racecar driving, YES.....

I'm sure I missed a few...

I'd say sailing is one of the least sexist sports out there.

I work for a number of women boat owners who don't have a SO, nor care to at this point.

Maria owns a Grand Banks and she keeps it in tip top shape all while raising two young girls on her own. She got the boat she wanted and no one excluded her. She also joined the club she wanted and they welcomed her with open arms. (ok not a sailor now, but was)

Carol owns and sails a 36' cutter rigged CCA era boat with her young daughter. She sails it solo with her child 95% of the time. She is also in the "club" as a single woman.

Megan owns a 74' foot steel schooner she runs a charter business from. She physically built the boat with a friend and does all the maintenance herself with the help of her hired crew.

Sara, also single, races two nights per week in one design and PHRF. She also joined her club as a single women..

There are so many more and I don't feel Maine is unique in this regard... Compared to most other sports sailing is about the least "sexist" I can think of...

If you want to seek out and find sexism you can always find it. Heck my wife went to Simmons where they preach sexism to the point of it being their currency... It was so bad and disgusted her so much that to this day she has not made a single donation to them because of it....

My sister grew up in very conservative NH and never found racism until she went to a very, very, very liberal university where THEY, the administration, made issue of her skin color. She never had a single issue, that she can recall, growing up in almost all white NH, but as soon as she got to a much more culturally diverse university, there it was, racism, beating down her door...

They made issue of her skin color by constantly offering her extra tutoring or "we think you should join this "minority group" or that one." or special incentives for tuition based on race etc.. Race and her skin color was pointed out to her by her professors and the administration at every turn. Not by the students or her friends....

She finally got so infuriated that she marched herself down to the dean, without and appointment, and tore him a new ARSE HOLE.

_"I am an American God dammit and my skin color has nothing to do with what I came her for. NOTHING !!!!!! NO, I don't need your special incentives or "extra help" because of the color of my skin. Go fu¢k yourself if you want to use me as your tool to meet your "quotas"!!"_

With that she walked out.....

She then called my mother and told her she though she was just kicked out of college.... My mother listened to her story and told her she did the right thing.

The dean profusely apologized, including written letter of apology on behalf of the university. He also physically walked himself to her dorm room to apologize in-person. Still, despite my sister pointing out this egregious level of insulting racism, at a university, they never changed their policies on "special treatment" based on skin color....Go figure that the most racism my sister ever encountered in her life was from the people who profess the most not to be racist.... :hothead

Sometimes sexism or racism, or any "ism", comes direct from the folks who claim the most not to be..... A thought anyway.....

Sorry for the rant.....


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## JulieMor

Maine Sail said:


> Sometimes sexism or racism, or any "ism", comes direct from the folks who claim the most not to be.....


I had a teacher in grade school who often said, "A guilty conscious needs no accusing." She's been proven right countless of times in my life.


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## Coquina

More context.
If they were on my boat, the women are going to win in the light stuff, on average weighing less.
In heavy air the men will win because they on average weigh more and can get more meat on the rail and brute strength gets tacks and sail changes done faster in heavy stuff.

* not to say there aren't heavy strong women and light weak men, but this is averages.

In smaller boats like a Laser there is a DEFINITE windspeed vs. winning crew weight formula. The 90 pounder and the 220 pounder each have a windspeed they'll win in, given equal skills.

On boats where a significant portion of the crew function as mobile ballast or human substitutes for hydraulic winches, if a program can have their pick of people very few women would have the size and strength for a top level program at the grunt/ballast positions. Not that I do either..........just sayin



JulieMor said:


> Imagine this...
> 
> There are two boats. Each has a race proven race crew. Each crew member has competed at a comparable level as the other. On paper, there is no difference, except one. One boat is crewed by men, the other by women. Who wins? And why?


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## Donna_F

JulieMor said:


> Imagine this...
> 
> There are two boats. Each has a race proven race crew. Each crew member has competed at a comparable level as the other. On paper, there is no difference, except one. One boat is crewed by men, the other by women. Who wins? And why?


To me having the opportunity is less important than the outcome.

I don't know of a big-league race that Dawn Riley has won, but she has had the opportunity to race in the same races as male sailors. She's on my To Be Admired list because she did it, not because she won.


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## Sal Paradise

Mostly I think its how you parents raise you. I grew up working for my dad, as a mechanic, equipment operator, pick and shovel laborer, carpenter helper, janitor. And I'm not talking odd jobs. Heavy adult jobs when I was 12, 14, 16. He is an immigrant and looked on a first born son as a resourse, a commodity. Nurturing was not part of the equation but plenty of on the job training was. 

My sister, by comparison, sat in the house and did nothing. My parents were sexist. very old fashioned. She had a lot of problems when she grew up because she was so coddled.

The point is - they made me into a jack of all trades who can figure stuff out . 

I raised my 3 kids a lot nicer, but I certainly didn't coddle them. I let them do a lot of stuff, on their own. Unsupervised. I figured letting them make a few mistakes when they are young is the cheapest and quickest life training. Turns out those kids we never coddled ( now all grown up) are good sailors, they are fast strong, tough, handy and never complain and they can work and fix stuff.


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## outbound

Spend part of my professional life reading stuff like:
If you record eye movements of males and females looking at the same picture they are different. If you record fMRI of m/f doing a task they are different. Of course their is overlap in the response curves but their is a biologic difference which transcends culture. This is a wonderful thing. I'll look at something and be confounded. She sees right off.Opposite happens too. What makes me POd is for either sex to not value and accept this difference.


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## TJC45

JulieMor said:


> Imagine this...
> 
> There are two boats. Each has a race proven race crew. Each crew member has competed at a comparable level as the other. On paper, there is no difference, except one. One boat is crewed by men, the other by women. Who wins? And why?


They let women race?


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## Sal Paradise

outbound said:


> Spend part of my professional life reading stuff like:
> If you record eye movements of males and females looking at the same picture they are different. If you record fMRI of m/f doing a task they are different. Of course their is overlap in the response curves but their is a biologic difference which transcends culture. This is a wonderful thing. I'll look at something and be confounded. She sees right off.Opposite happens too. What makes me POd is for either sex to not value and accept this difference.


Thats great, its like you are saying we are 2 different species. Fascinating but what does it get you when some one has to go forward in 20 knot wind and change a head sail or pull up a stuck anchor? I mean its not rocket science. Some one steers and some one works up front. Both people need to know what they are doing, and what the other person is doing. If your MRI could tell us something practical I'd be interested. Not picking on you, just pointing out what we are dealing with....


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## kjango

Is sailing sexist ??? hmmmmmmmm.......OMG I certainly hope so.........& on my boat most assuredly so !!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Donna_F

"sexist" kjango, not "sexy."


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## outbound

Was just pointing out misceptions can lead to unnecessary hostilities. By the way my bride has run the boat standing single watch ( I napped in the cockpit) in a gale. She Does just fine thank you. Neither of us can pull up stuck anchor. We go up and down and power or sail over it. Our headsails roll and we use a winch when neccessary. Brains not brawn makes for good sailors. Best sailor I ever knew was a slight lady town librarian. She was great on multiday passages. Taught me a ton of stuff. First day on new boat my bride went up the mast.said she just wanted to see the view after rigger had finished his stuff.


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## Coquina

My wife went up the mast because she said it was too much work to crank my fat butt up there.


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## Donna_F

Ooops. NOT that I'm saying you're fat...


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## TJC45

Fat? What was that sailing movie years ago where "No fat chicks" was painted below the waterline on a racing boat? Interestingly enough, as the story goes, that was taken from real life. I guess that was sexist boat?


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## Sublime

As a female sailor, I have found that I am only able to command a pink or purple vessel. If I'm on a boat that is of any other color, I get distracted, indecisive, randomly toss things overboard and require male direction. Otherwise I will just sit down below and either iron or churn butter.

Damn these ovaries....


Seriously though, I get better treatment from male sailors. I single hand my boat and generally get a thumbs up from other male sailors. Female sailors usually give me the stink eye or pretend I don't exist. 
I'm kind of shy plus I don't have an overwhelming need to socialize so eff someone like that. 

I'm proud of what I can do. I don't need anyone else's approval.


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## AlaskaMC

Went sailing with my 5 year old daughter today. We were tacking up past an island when she yells out "Come on Dad, go fast like Mom does". I don't think she thinks sailing is sexist. In fact, I think she doesn't know what that means yet. Good for her! 

She was great today in fact. She helped me do everything and even ran the tiller for a couple miles on the way home (with my hand poised if needed.) What a great day!


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## AirborneSF

A boat is a "SHE", nuff said!


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## bfloyd4445

Yes. I have never heard of a vessel being referred to as he, its always she handles well, etc. Us males should demand fair treatment!!! Grrrr


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## Solandri

JulieMor said:


> Imagine this...
> 
> There are two boats. Each has a race proven race crew. Each crew member has competed at a comparable level as the other. On paper, there is no difference, except one. One boat is crewed by men, the other by women. Who wins? And why?


That's pretty much already happened. The defender's series for the 1995 America's cup had three contenders. One team, America3, had an all-female crew (with a male tactician). If I remember right, they were on the verge of winning the last race and heading to the America's Cup as the defender. They were beating Dennis Conner on Stars and Stripes by several minutes heading towards the finish, when they made the odd tactical decision to split from Stars and Stripes. They hit a patch of dead air and ended up losing. (DC went on to lose to New Zealand 5-0.)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America%C2%B3

So luck and tactics are more important than gender of the crew. From what I recall, aside from briefly mentioning that the crew was all-female in the intro to the broadcasts, and some news interview questions asking the crew how it felt to be the first all-women crew, nobody made a big deal about it. They treated the boat and crew just like any other team. The fact that their "first" has mostly been lost to the annals of history I think is a testament to the lack of sexism in the sport. (At least in public. Dunno what went on in private.)


----------



## bfloyd4445

AirborneSF said:


> A boat is a "SHE", nuff said!


maybe I'll name my next boat Ralph.......is Obama a male or female name?


----------



## Donna_F

bfloyd4445 said:


> Yes. I have never heard of a vessel being referred to as he, its always she handles well, etc. Us males should demand fair treatment!!! Grrrr


Lloyd's no longer refers to ships as "she" so no one else should, either.

Lloyd's List sinks the tradition of calling ships 'she' - Telegraph


----------



## bfloyd4445

DRFerron said:


> Lloyd's no longer refers to ships as "she" so no one else should, either.
> 
> Lloyd's List sinks the tradition of calling ships 'she' - Telegraph


They must have moved their hq to San Francisco. But for me, any vessel I ride on, in, is gonna be a she. Vessels have always been she and they will remain so in my book. I don't take orders from Loyd's do you?


----------



## Donna_F

I'm not sure that I care what anyone calls their boat. My post was tongue in cheek.


----------



## bfloyd4445

DRFerron said:


> I'm not sure that I care what anyone calls their boat. My post was tongue in cheek.


< smile > all in fun. I was the guy that made the comment about how boats are always referred to as she, and my next boat was gonna be named Ralph. Well after the discussion I am inclined to go with tradition held since the dawn of sailing and hence forth my vessels will always be referred to as she, and spoiled like we men spoil all our women.

God bless you ladies, one and all with your beautiful bellowing sails that we men enjoy so very much.........<smile>


----------



## Sublime

I had learned that boats were called "she" because they carry, protect and then deliver the crew (or cargo) like a mother does her child.

Since we sailors are generally a suspicious group, and that it's know the name you give your boat affects the "personality", I'm not sure Ralph would be a good name. 
First, a male boat may run around trying to "hook up" with every female boat willing to give him the time of day. 
Second, a boat name Ralph may just "shoot your eye out" (Christmas Story) and spend too much money on Ovaltine.


----------



## bfloyd4445

Sublime said:


> I had learned that boats were called "she" because they carry, protect and then deliver the crew (or cargo) like a mother does her child.
> 
> Since we sailors are generally a suspicious group, and that it's know the name you give your boat affects the "personality", I'm not sure Ralph would be a good name.
> First, a male boat may run around trying to "hook up" with every female boat willing to give him the time of day.
> Second, a boat name Ralph may just "shoot your eye out" (Christmas Story) and spend too much money on Ovaltine.


she, because they carry protect and deliver the crew.....hum..I like that .

But while "she" is doing all that Ralph is keeping her from harm by caring cleaning and keeping her off shoals, navigating bars etc. Poor Ralph does all the hard stuff but no credit. When she skillfully crosses a nasty bar onlookers amply praise her, when she cuts a picture perfect profile against the sea onlookers again give her praise. No one ever says, look there goes ralph, dosent he look grand!....poor poor Ralph

personally I like the she thing, I have no desire to sail in a "he", do you?


----------



## johnnyquest37

“A ship is always referred to as a she because it costs so much to keep one in paint and powder.”
-- Chester W. Nimitz


----------



## bfloyd4445

johnnyquest37 said:


> "A ship is always referred to as a she because it costs so much to keep one in paint and powder."
> -- Chester W. Nimitz


makes good sense


----------



## Sal Paradise

While this thread has been meandering, my wife has gradually been turning into a pretty good sailor. This gives me a lot of hope. Didn't take an all female training program, or a marriage counselor. Just time, patience and a few perfect days. She just has/ had a bit more fear and less strength. But as she herself said - where I go, she goes. Not only is her fear less and less, but the work ethic and speed with which the work is done has improved at an amazing rate. What it really took was again endless patience, and letting her come to her own realizations about what needs to be done and how to do it.


----------



## caberg

I find the context in which some men refer to their wives as "The Admiral" to be sexist. I'd never heard that term for a wife before reading it here on almost a daily basis. To me, it sounds like giving the wife an important title to make her feel good, but really saying she's not good for much at all.

My wife is the co-owner of our boat, and she's just as likely to be at the helm as me.


----------



## Donna_F

caberg said:


> I find the context in which some men refer to their wives as "The Admiral" to be sexist. I'd never heard that term for a wife before reading it here on almost a daily basis. To me, it sounds like giving the wife an important title to make her feel good, but really saying she's not good for much at all.
> 
> My wife is the co-owner of our boat, and she's just as likely to be at the helm as me.


Ahhhh. That's a can of worms ye've cracked open.  I totally agree. A few other women I know totally agree. On the other hand, there are more women who think there's nothing wrong with it and then the argument from the men is that "admiral" is a higher rank than "captain."

I think that's a summary of this particular circle that we've gone around in this forum.


----------



## Minnesail

caberg said:


> I find the context in which some men refer to their wives as "The Admiral" to be sexist.


Yeah, that always strikes me as a bit off. That and the SWMBO thing. I understand the spirit in which it's used, but it just doesn't come off quite right for me.

That being said, when my wife saw our new (used) boat parked in the driveway she said "Well then I get a leather sectional sofa for the basement," and I said "Yes ma'am."


----------



## bfloyd4445

caberg said:


> I find the context in which some men refer to their wives as "The Admiral" to be sexist. I'd never heard that term for a wife before reading it here on almost a daily basis. To me, it sounds like giving the wife an important title to make her feel good, but really saying she's not good for much at all.
> 
> My wife is the co-owner of our boat, and she's just as likely to be at the helm as me.


I think it goes deeper than that. I had a german lady tell me before she died that American women as spoiled and don't know how good they have it. That was forty years ago and as time passed I realized that we American men do spoil our women. We always put them on a throne and give them the best we can so of course they would have to be the admiral because that is the highest position upon a vessel. Not sexest at all just a way of telling the lady friend that she is the best.


----------



## Argyle38

caberg said:


> I find the context in which some men refer to their wives as "The Admiral" to be sexist. I'd never heard that term for a wife before reading it here on almost a daily basis. To me, it sounds like giving the wife an important title to make her feel good, but really saying she's not good for much at all.
> 
> My wife is the co-owner of our boat, and she's just as likely to be at the helm as me.


That might be the case for some folks, but for a lot of people, that's just the nature of the on-board relationship. The wife often decides where to go and the husband, being the more experienced sailor, is in charge of getting the boat there. Very much like an admiral-captain relationship in the Navy.


----------



## Minnewaska

Argyle38 said:


> That might be the case for some folks, but for a lot of people, that's just the nature of the on-board relationship. The wife often decides where to go and the husband, being the more experienced sailor, is in charge of getting the boat there. Very much like an admiral-captain relationship in the Navy.


This one hit home. Almost exactly how it works here. Now, I don't refer to my wife as Admiral. Not because I consider it sexist, but because its corny. I also refuse to wear anything that has the word Captain on it either.


----------



## TomMaine

caberg said:


> I find the context in which some men refer to their wives as "The Admiral" to be sexist. I'd never heard that term for a wife before reading it here on almost a daily basis. To me, it sounds like giving the wife an important title to make her feel good, but really saying she's not good for much at all.
> 
> My wife is the co-owner of our boat, and she's just as likely to be at the helm as me.


Me too. It sounds derogatory to me, no matter who you're calling the "admiral", everybody aboard that boat, loses. 

Another one is "She who must be obeyed", which I finally figured out is abb. -swmbo-,... silly and sad.


----------



## Sal Paradise

I see it as corny and dumb, not derogatory. Sounds like something old people say. 

Some people really truly like to be told what to do. They want their spouse to make the decisions and they go along. Nothing terrible about that. Its not for my wife and me its the way some people are. And statistically, 50% of those people who want to be told what to do -- are male. So maybe thats where the admiral thing comes from some times.


----------



## Donna_F

Isn't "She Who Must Be Obeyed" from the Rumpole of the Bailey books? Or does it pre-date that?


----------



## Minnesail

DRFerron said:


> Isn't "She Who Must Be Obeyed" from the Rumpole of the Bailey books? Or does it pre-date that?


Apparently it goes back to 1886: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/She_(novel)


----------



## captain jack

Jeff_H said:


> Somewhat relevant to the title of this thread was an article in "Sailing" magazine. To me, I do not see sailing as inherently sexist. That said, many boats are set up with winch and line loadings that are designed around what an average fit man can routinely manage. My wife who is in good physical shape complains that these loads are bigger than she can handle easily. While there are many un-fit men out there, and many very fit woman, perhaps it is time for designers to increase the mechanical advantage so that a larger cohort of the population can easily manage the loads.
> 
> Anyway, below is the article on recent growth in sailing coming in the from women taking up the sport....
> 
> GROWTH: The secret is out, and she's female
> 
> You sail like a mom: It's a compliment, not a put-down
> 
> While sailing industry types scratch their heads trying to find the right formula to increase the number of kids in sailing programs, and sailing clubs and racing associations nationwide worry about declining memberships, sailing is shifting and growing under their feet.
> 
> Promoters repackage races to appeal to shoreside fans of testosterone-loaded extreme sports, selling sponsorships to brands which, in turn, hope fans will buy shirts or drinks, and sailboat builders seek designs hoping for mass appeal or some new "breakthrough" formula, all while sailing is being revolutionized from the inside out.
> 
> Sailing is becoming the activity of adult women.
> 
> Don't believe it? Quick, say the last names of Ellen, Dawn, Betsy and Anna. You got them all in a few seconds right? Now try to do that quickly with the names of four guys who sail.
> 
> But it's much more than a few popular female sailing athletes. This revolution isn't being led by pros or celebrities, but by grassroots changes and on all new terms.
> 
> Here's some evidence: Facebook analytics reports that among 1.1 million Americans who express an interest in sailing, women account for 51%, and 88% of them are over 25 years old. But they're not just fans. Women under 24 and over 35 share their own sailing experiences on Facebook almost twice as often as men.
> 
> Consider that only 20 years ago, men outnumbered women in sailing 7-to-1.
> 
> You might see it in your town. What sailing center's teaching staff isn't dominated by strong, athletic, articulate and confident female sailing instructors? What collegiate sailing team doesn't have at least as many women as men? What yacht club doesn't like to boast about its first female commodore? And what regatta doesn't overplay its all-female entries?
> 
> At the 2012 Soling Worlds for example, someone stood up at the opening ceremony to announce that boat No. 601, skippered by Whitney Kent and crewed by Cate Muller and Ashley Henderson, was the first all-female team ever in a Soling World Championship, and everyone loudly cheered and applauded, as if it was something strange and new. Sure, Soling fleet demographics lean to older guys who still seem focused on the Olympic trials of the 1970s, so they may not have noticed what has been happening recently in other fleets. The No. 601 team wasn't there as a novelty or to be called out as tokens. Between them, the three women have decades of sailing experience and stellar records, racing and winning in one-design and handicapped events all over the country. They had trained for the event all summer because it happened to be coming to their hometown, and sailed respectably against tough competition.
> 
> In many cities near water in the U.S., women are organizing all-women teams and events. These events often grow organically out of a small network of veteran sailors who cobble together some used boats and recruit and help train newcomers until they've built a decent-sized fleet. In my town, summer Monday nights (the night the women sail) are the busiest nights on the bay. You might also notice that unlike classically organized sailing events, those for women organized by women don't have a "yachty," "club" or an "exclusive" feel. They don't originate behind a closed gate or in the haze of cigar smoke at a bar. Instead, friends call friends and they go sailing. Everyone, regardless of skill, affiliation, age or experience is welcome, except, of course, for the men.
> 
> And here's something new and different: unlike most adult men in sailing who will tell you that they've sailed forever, many women are entering the sport as adults. Often it happens while seeking social connections before or after marriage or kids. A woman will move to a new city to take a job, and the local sailing center looks attractive as a place to meet people and relax in the evenings. Friendships are sparked and a lifelong sailing adventure begins.
> 
> Women who get a taste for sailing in women-only events or in community programs often join teams that also include men and when they do, they're just as good as the men, sometimes better. In my experience, among my crewmates, the women have the deepest commitment, train the hardest and can be the most motivated and motivational skippers.
> 
> Sailing belies gender. Women have everything it takes-strength, quickness, smarts and creativity-to sail at any level, from boat rides to blue water, from match racing to solo around-the-world adventures, from dinghies to tall ships.
> But there is a more important aspect to this trend. When women who sail also happen to be moms, as they often are or will be, sailing becomes the activity of their families too.
> 
> When a sailing mom's kids are very young, they get an inspiring early taste. They learn to be on and around boats and sailors, to wear life jackets, to touch water, and to be safe. Then, when her kids are old enough to be on a sailing team, the family becomes the team. Mom doesn't sit in the bleachers at a soccer field, she trims the kite, steers the boat or calls tactics.
> 
> So I propose that the most important person on any sailing boat is the mom. Think about it this way: When a mom sails with her kids (instead of driving them to soccer) she's doing something deemed suited only to men just a few years ago, and she is not doing the things thought to be the status quo for moms today. She's a renegade. An innovator. A leader.
> 
> And that, all you industry types, club and racing association managers, boat makers and sponsors, is how you get kids into sailing.


interesting article. all I have to say is," where are all these sailor women, darn it? I want one!"

seriously, though. I think there is something the article mentions but does not draw attention to: while more men, generally, tend to sail, than women, men do not keep women from sailing. they do not oppose it. the women sailors, however, do keep men out of their groups. if listen to the article, it is women that are sexist, in the sailing world; not the men. and the article doesn't find fault with that. we live in a double standard society and refuse to admit it. think about it

you can have an all minority group or school or other activity. 
but any all white organization or group is automatically racist.

you can have an all female group or club or whatever, and that is applauded.
but an all male group, activity, or club is sexist...even if it's because women just aren't interested.

it's a double standard. but it's an ok double standard. I think it's funny. we are such a self delusional society.

I want to point out that the writer was sexist in assuming cigar smoking is only a man's activity. I have known a number of women that smoked cigars and one that smoked a pipe, like I do.

it has been my observation that, often, the most racist or sexist are the ones going around griping that others are racist or sexist.

I bet no one ever tried to say that quilting bees were sexist. ever met a guy that was into quilting? it's a conspiracy, I tell ya!


----------



## captain jack

caberg said:


> I find the context in which some men refer to their wives as "The Admiral" to be sexist. I'd never heard that term for a wife before reading it here on almost a daily basis. To me, it sounds like giving the wife an important title to make her feel good, but really saying she's not good for much at all.
> 
> My wife is the co-owner of our boat, and she's just as likely to be at the helm as me.


I wouldn't say it's sexist at all. in some cases, when a man refers to his woman with a title of authority, it is a loving recognition of her importance. however, most of the time I have seen men refer to their wives as "the boss", it's because they are hen pecked and wouldn't dare make a decision, even regarding themselves, without their wife's permission. but I have never known a guy who referred to their wife with a title of authority that did so in a depreciating manner, with intent on implying she is useless.


----------



## captain jack

Sublime said:


> I had learned that boats were called "she" because they carry, protect and then deliver the crew (or cargo) like a mother does her child.


not accurate at all. calling a boat ( or a motorcycle or a car ) "she" comes from the pre-Christian Germanic culture ( we live in a world that is highly Germanic influenced ). it was ( is by those still true to the old Gods ) believed that all things have a spirit. some things have a more developed spirit than others. nothing can manifest in the material world if it does not also manifest in the spirit world.

a sword, and a boat, was felt to have a very developed spirit. the original spirit essence comes from the materials from which it's made, but the smith or boat wright gives to the sword/ ship a part of his spirit, as he makes it. future owners also give a part of their spirits, as they utilize these things. this is why you never loan your sword to someone who you do not believe is an honorable person: he might taint the spirit of your sword. there is a similar belief, about swords, in japan.

now, when you manifest your spirit, in something you use or make, it manifests as the gender opposite of yours. the sword is close and intimate with the swordsman, like a lover not like a brother.

traditionally, for almost 95% of human history, men were the sword smiths and the swordsmen. men were the ship builders and the sailors. so, naturally, these things had a female spirit and were called "she". this is not, at all, sexist. it is an honor. nothing is so cherished as a sword, by the swordsman, or a boat, by the sailor. these things were loved devotedly.

this tradition wasn't tainted by the coming of the church, which was very anti-woman. it follows it's old heathen roots. one must remember, no Viking, regardless how mighty, would even undertake a simple raid without seeking the advice of the oldest woman of his family or community. In those heathen societies, women were respected and honored; felt to be somewhat divine.

it was the cultures to the south that held women to be second class citizens. at one point, the church ( Christianity being a middle eastern religion ) was debating whether women actually had souls or not.

similarly, the tradition of giving boats, and swords, names comes from this belief. in fact, christening a boat is a Christianization of the name fastening ritual, in which a sacrifice is given ( that which is sacrificed gives it's life force to the ship ) and the name proclaimed to the Gods and Norns.

you have to remember that much of our nautical tradition comes from the Norse and other Germanic cultures, like the Dutch and English.


----------



## mattt

Sailing isn't sexist but half the sailors I've met are.


----------



## captain jack

how so? do they do things to deter or otherwise keep women from sailing?


----------



## MikeGuyver

how so? do they do things to deter or otherwise keep men from sailing?

Ironic isn't it


----------



## unimacs

Sailing exists within the context of the larger society. Like it or not, gender is a factor that sometimes steers us towards or discourages us from participating in certain activities. 

For other activities, people of different genders participate more or less equally. 

There are lots of hats that can be worn when it comes to sailing. Some of those hats are worn less often by women. In some cases, it could be that they are actively discouraged from wearing them. In other cases, it may be that for whatever reason women as a group are just less interested than men but the women that do want to wear those hats don't have to overcome any barriers to do so. And there are lots of areas that fall somewhere in between.

I think from a legal standpoint a lot has been done to open doors that were previously closed to women, or at least difficult to walk through. Attitudes don't change as easily as laws though. We don't treat men and women exactly the same, and I'm not sure that is really the ideal anyway. Everyone should have the same opportunities however, and whatever characteristics we initially judge a person on, we should be prepared for the fact that we may be wrong.


----------



## gamayun

I've been in a lot of sports and careers that are male dominated so these things can't bother you or you'll constantly be annoyed and I have enough of that when I'm driving. At least it appears to me that sexism continues to lessen and parity between partners is more commonly accepted these days. Recently, I was cleaning some lines on my boat leaving the Alameda Estuary and a (male) friend was driving. The Coast Guard pulled us over for a regular safety check and called out "captain," which they directed to him. My friend points to me. That was cool. I suspect they would have called me captain had I been driving, but that's just idle curiosity so see if my theory holds. There was, however, a young girl manning this HUGE gun on the front of their boat. Probably every guy she encountered that day had to bite their tongues not to make a joke. I asked my friend and he certainly did...so it does continue.


----------



## captain jack

MikeGuyver said:


> how so? do they do things to deter or otherwise keep men from sailing?
> 
> Ironic isn't it


ironic that i would assume sexist aganst women? not really considering that women are the only ones that complain about sexism even though there are frequently elements in society that are sexist towards men. ironic that it could go the other way? yeah. i suppose. is there another possible irony that i didn't see?

man. what is up with my 'h' key? i have to keep editing to put 'h's back in.


----------



## Capt Len

So I sell my boat after 40 years and my co pilot of 18 years tells me I'm not nearly as attractive now. I counter with,'I'm not really this tall (6'7") I'm standing on my wallet. We'll probably work it out but are our attitudes sexist?


----------



## MikeGuyver

You made the assumption that the sailors Mattt was talking about were men. 
That in itself points to the whole problem, sailing isn't sexist, men are.
Even the ones who try not to be have been programmed by society to think that way.

It's a hard habit to break isn't it? My wife reminds me quite often.


----------



## captain jack

MikeGuyver said:


> You made the assumption that the sailors Mattt was talking about were men.
> That in itself points to the whole problem, sailing isn't sexist, men are.
> Even the ones who try not to be have been programmed by society to think that way.
> 
> It's a hard habit to break isn't it? My wife reminds me quite often.


yeah. but you stating that ' sailing isn't sexist, men are' is also sexist. a non sexist statement would have been to say that people ( not men ) are sexist.

i assumed that the sailors in question were men because that was the idea behind this thread: sailing is sexist against women. thus, male sailors are sexist. this thread wasn't about women being sexist and, indeed, even the article which talked about female sailor's sexist behavior towards male sailors did not acknowledge that the behavior was sexist, just that it was justified and to be applauded. i didn't make that assumption because of some personal prediliction. in fact, if anything, my assumption that it was men being accused of sexist behavior was sexist against men.


----------



## mattt

It was kind of a joke, it's more like a quarter.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MikeGuyver

See.....products of our environment.


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## titustiger27

mattt said:


> Sailing isn't sexist but half the sailors I've met are.


Whew just got through this thread.

First I think the thread should be "How Sexist is Sailing."

And like many similar (ism) topics, the people defending that it isn't, tend to come off as if they are defending if they are or are not.

If a man and a woman go to buy a boat and when the salesperson comes up, the woman says: "We want to buy a boat" (or even if she says "I want to buy a boat.") if the salesperson is male, he will likely still talk to the man. But the same would be true if she wanted to buy a car.

We live in world with a large degree of a sexism.

If there isn't some sexism, then why do the ads in magazines (and the magazines themselves) mostly put the men in power positions and women in bikinis... (Speaking of which, are their any threads on Sailnet where a woman posted a picture of a man with kittens in his pants?)

The book that started the conversation... My guess the title (and the picture) was from the publisher and it was believed that the title --- sexist or not --- would move copies.

...all that said, I would prefer to see a discussion of sexism (all isms) with people not defending if they are a sexist, but by showing what they are doing to eliminate or prevent it

not in pants, but in a boat


----------



## Kielanders

What an interesting and predictable thread, I'm glad I found it.

I need to spend more time over at SA and CF...


----------



## TomMaine

titustiger27 said:


> Whew just got through this thread.
> 
> First I think the thread should be "How Sexist is Sailing."
> 
> And like many similar (ism) topics, the people defending that it isn't, tend to come off as if they are defending if they are or are not.
> 
> If a man and a woman go to buy a boat and when the salesperson comes up, the woman says: "We want to buy a boat" (or even if she says "I want to buy a boat.") if the salesperson is male, he will likely still talk to the man. But the same would be true if she wanted to buy a car.
> 
> We live in world with a large degree of a sexism.
> 
> If there isn't some sexism, then why do the ads in magazines (and the magazines themselves) mostly put the men in power positions and women in bikinis... (Speaking of which, are their any threads on Sailnet where a woman posted a picture of a man with kittens in his pants?)
> 
> The book that started the conversation... My guess the title (and the picture) was from the publisher and it was believed that the title --- sexist or not --- would move copies.
> 
> ...all that said, I would prefer to see a discussion of sexism (all isms) with people not defending if they are a sexist, but by showing what they are doing to eliminate or prevent it
> 
> not in pants, but in a boat


It has been an interesting thread. The original poster got her answer, 'affirmative', in the first page.

I just can't believe how many times she's gotten the same answer, since.


----------



## titustiger27

TomMaine said:


> It has been an interesting thread. The original poster got her answer, 'affirmative', in the first page.
> 
> I just can't believe how many times she's gotten the same answer, since.


and She might be a He

from his/her blog:



> Brian Jones
> 
> Sailor and boatbuilder in Norfolk County, Ontario, on the North Shore of Lake Erie.


I think that is the nature of conversation/forum dialog --- people repeating their point, because they don't think the other person is listening and the the other person doing the same


----------



## TomMaine

titustiger27 said:


> and She might be a He
> 
> from his/her blog:
> 
> I think that is the nature of conversation/forum dialog --- people repeating their point, because they don't think the other person is listening and the the other person doing the same


She could be he in the OP. Feminism comes increasingly from both genders today. There's an improvement.

Your question, "what are people doing to fight sexism in sailing?", is a good one. One of the best things to do, is just speak out against sexism.

I think the same improvements that are happening in society, in general, will be just as positive in sailing as in anything else.

The good news I see is, sexism(like racism and general bias) is dieing away in the generations around me, things are getting much better.

The bad news is, with sexism globally, it's hard to be as optimistic.


----------



## titustiger27

TomMaine said:


> She could be he in the OP. Feminism comes increasingly from both genders today. There's an improvement.
> 
> Your question, "what are people doing to fight sexism in sailing?", is a good one. One of the best things to do, is just speak out against sexism.
> 
> I think the same improvements that are happening in society, in general, will be just as positive in sailing as in anything else.
> 
> The good news I see is, sexism(like racism and general bias) is dieing away in the generations around me, things are getting much better.
> 
> The bad news is, with sexism globally, it's hard to be as optimistic.


I agree.. The one thing I am hopeful for is the number of women in college exceeds me... and is growing in sports. In the US, it is a matter of time before women have more power position (Liz Warren for president!), of course that doesn't eliminate it (in the US) no more than having a black president eliminated racism.

'speaking out' on the global level is very frustrating... our government tends to shy away from human rights abuse in the name of compromise or deal making.


----------



## Donna_F

titustiger27 said:


> and She might be a He
> ...


He is, indeed, a he.


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## Kielanders

One of our finest products as a nation of BPA leaching into the food supply thru containers; it should be very proud.


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## Multihullgirl

bljones said:


> I put it to the ladies of Sailnet- is this lifestyle of ours as sexist as I think?


Absolutely.

Example: I am the skipper of our boat, but almost invariably when conversation initiates with strangers on dock or at yacht club, males will speak to my husband about boat as though I'm not even standing there. I know I'm not pretty, but I don't think it's just that. Husband has noticed it too and will generally steer the stranger towards me for boat discussion which elicits surprised responses.

Other examples are rife within almost all Internet sailing fora. Observe the patronizing attitudes towards the "first mate" or "admiral," "blue jobs/pink jobs," etcetera.

To me, it seems that racing sailors and dinghy/small multihull sailors are less chauvinist, though


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## Minnewaska

If I walk up to a couple, I'm most likely to strike up a conversation with the guy first. No way its sexist. I'm a guy talking to a guy. No presumption on who ranks higher aboard. Most women will strike up a conversation with the woman aboard.


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## Donna_F

Minnewaska said:


> If I walk up to a couple, I'm most likely to strike up a conversation with the guy first. No way its sexist. I'm a guy talking to a guy. No presumption on who ranks higher aboard. Most women will strike up a conversation with the woman aboard.


I think I get that perspective. It also eliminates any thoughts that you're making a play for the woman (if the potential was there). I try to engage both in the conversation by shifting eye contact between the two of them so that both feel I'm asking questions that I assume either can answer. If one points to the other and says "That's his/her area" then I will address my questions to that person but occasionally still draw in the other.


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## captain jack

Multihullgirl said:


> Absolutely.
> 
> Example: I am the skipper of our boat, but almost invariably when conversation initiates with strangers on dock or at yacht club, males will speak to my husband about boat as though I'm not even standing there. I know I'm not pretty, but I don't think it's just that. Husband has noticed it too and will generally steer the stranger towards me for boat discussion which elicits surprised responses.


not sure that is due to sexism or your appearance. the truth is, most women are not sailors ( on their own, without the hubby being the driving force in the group interest in sailing ). that is changing but it is true. so, most men just assume it's the man, in the couple, who had the real interest, and they assume the wife is just partaking in his interest.

good example from experience:

i am a gearhead. i never considered myself one, but i have been forced to realize that i am. i build my own bikes, fabricating my own parts, so i can't deny it. i treat everyone i meet with the same respect and consideration. i was raised to give everyone the chance to prove themselves so i do. i don't judge a person by my interactions with any other person. so, if you talk to me, and mechanical stuff ( especially bikes ) comes up, i am not going to treat you like a child. i will discuss it with you. same with sailing, weapons, metal smithing....anything i know about, really. if it comes up, i will discuss it with you.

now, there are some really cool chicks who dig motyorcycles and can work on their own bikes. like sailor women ( also cool and very desirable ), they are hard to find and, when you find them, they are usually already taken.

so, 99% of the time, if the conversation goes to motorcycles, or anything mechanical, it's not long before the woman, i am speaking to, is looking at me with a blank face....as if i was talking in an alien tongue from a far off planet. ( now, to be fair, men, these days, aren't what they used to be. so, if i talk about mechanical things with a guy, now, i have about a 50% chance of meeting with a blank stare, to some degree. still, it's a safer bet that any guy you meet will be more likely to have mechanical knowledge than any woman you meet. it is changing but i'm not so sure if it's because more women are taking these things up or because more men are not taking them up. where most guys worked on cars or sailed or something like that, in the past, many younger guys are just video game fixated and know nothing else, today. of course, people make a big deal out of women doing these things, now, but there were always certain women doing these things. you just didn't treat them like puppy dogs that did a trick for you.)

now, if i get that response 99% of the time, so do other mechanical guys. so, if they assume a woman they meet is not mechanically minded, are they really being sexist or are they simply reacting to a lifetime of previous encounters?

like i say, i view every person and every situation as a unique, individual. most people don't. quickly judging a being, or situation, that you encounter by what you already know IS a natural survival mechanism. quick action, based on previous experience, can save an animal from sudden death....that includes humans.

so, applying that to sailing: i am willing to bet that 99% of the time, most of these guys you have run into have found that women, sailing with their male partner, are not the boat owner and are not the primary one who is interested. if you look back in this thread you will see the same thing mentioned...by women as well as men.

those guys who assume the boat is your husband's are only acting on previous experience. it has nothing to do with sexism.

if you want to look at it evenly, men do not have men only sailing nights or men only clubs ( that's not even allowed by law ). women do have women only sailing events and they also have tons of women only organizations, of all sorts. that's sexist.

as with motorcycles, i find that most men are not just supportive of a woman that sails, they think it is sexy. so, they certainly aren't trying to keep women from sailing, which would be sexist.

i find that the trouble with people who are always looking for an 'ism' and always trying to classify someone as an 'ist' is that, if you look hard enough, you can convince yourself that anything, however minor, fits that 'ism'.

why is it that there are never very many blacks playing hocky? is it racist? are the evil canadians purposely keeping them out because they secretly wished they had slaves? or maybe, it's just because black guys tend to prefer basketball. you could ask if basketball was racist because it is predominantly black. but both questions would just be seeking an 'ist' or finding an 'ism' where there isn't one.

not everyone likes all things equally. sexist women aren't keeping men out of knitting classes. men just aren't very interested in knitting.

and, if you assume the husband is the boat owner and the primary sailing enthusiast, it's not because you are an evil sexist jerk. it's because 99% of the couples you meet fit that description.

but then, som e people are always looking for the 'ists' of the world. the trouble is, if you are looking for it, you just focus public attention on our differences....which fosters 'isms'.

just let life alone. let people live as they will. don't assume everyone is an evil 'ist' out there trying to hold some other group down. most people are decent folk not trying to hold anyone down. there are buttholes in every group of people but the butthole minority doesn't define the group. it's an exception to the group.

i can't speak for any other guy here, but i think it is awesome when i meet women who are sailors, because they love sailing, or bikers, because they love to ride. i have spent a lifetime hoping to meet one of those elusive types of women. they would be the perfect partner to share a life with. on the other hand, a woman that will dedicate herself to a lifestyle because her husband/boyfriend is a part of that lifestyle is a very specisal woman, too. to dedicate yourself to something out of love for another....well, not everyone can love that selflessly.


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## captain jack

not to ramble but another point just came to me. and that is that the drive to stamp out 'isms' only creates a condecending attitude towards the subjects of said supposed 'isms'.

case in point:

i was sailing back river, in essex maryland, about two months ago. i was sailing from cox point, if any of you know the area. i was coming back into the dock, for the evening, sailing in circles waiting for the dock to become available.

on one pier, there was a guy loading up. he had one friend behind the wheel of his truck.

on the other pier, there was a group of 5 women, ranging between their late 20s and late 40s.

both groups were power boaters. no sailors in this example.

i have watched countless numbers of men load up their boats. some really sucked at it and some were deft and skillful. none of them ever made a big deal about doing it. it's just something you do, like washing dishes. you want to eat off of clean dishes so, you wash them. you want to take your boat home, so you load it onto your trailer. no big deal.

this group of women was war-whooping and patting themselves on the back, as if they were painting the Mona Lisa or solving world hunger, the whole time. it took them forever. they had started before the guys had even gotten the boat back to the dock.

when done, they exclaimed," it's not pretty, but we did it."

now, before i go any further, by making such a big deal out of something men do, out of routine without any fanfare, they might as well have been dancing around chanting," we are less than men but we succeeded in doing a manly task so praise us because we have risen above our lowly status."

seriously. that's how it sounded, although neither group saw it. if they truly thought themselves the equals of men, who do the same thing as if it was routine, like brushing your teeth, they wouldn't have been cheering themselves on as if it was a big accomplishment. it wasn't. they just put their boat back on the trailer. it's not a big accomplishment unless you think that you belong to a group that is not normally capable of achieving it.

so, back to my story:

after all the celebration, they realize that, although the boat was on the trailer and out of the water, it was almost a foot off center, at the stern. then they had to back up, into te water again, and it took them a deal more fanfare and back slapping to....not be able to get it centered.

all this time i am tacking and jibing in circles waiting to use the dock with nothing better to do than watch the show.

so, the guy who is loading the boat on the trailer walks over and tells them, step by step, how to fix the problem. and so, in short oder, the boat was actually on the trailer the right way. 

and then the celebration starts anew. this time, not only are they patting thmselves on the back ( for a task they actually weren't able to do without help ) but the guys, both of them, were congratulating them. i was amazed. the whole thing was just condecending to women and an insult to the, actual, skillful female boaters i have seen, while sailing.

it's like the women were proud to have achieved a lofty accomplishment; one only achievable by men....i can only suppose it was becase they didn't truly believe women could do something like that.

and the men....they were only doing what society has taught them they should do...but their congratulations just furthered the idea that loading a boat on a trailer is something that only guys can do so, you need to congratulate these helpless little girls for being able to do it( with the help of a man).

the whole scene was so appalling i had to share it with my girlfriend, when i got home.

there was nothing for them to celebrate or congatulate about. putting a boat back on a trailer isn't hard. men can do it. women can do it. they failed to be able to do it. but they got acclaim because they were women, which is sexist because it assumes that women can't really do that sort of thing.

in comparison, there is this nice, older lady....maybe 50 something....i have seen, in a johnboat, while i was sailing at lake marburg. we have spoken, in passing, a few times. she goes up and takes her numerous grandkids, and other family, out on boat rides. she is very skillful with her boat. she is also one of the few power bvoaters, up there, that i have met that is considerate and friendly on the water. 

when they are there, there is no doubt that she is the skipper. she is confident and sure of herself.

she also makes no big deal out of her abilities wth a boat. like all the guys you see, she treats it as just something she does....and so does everyone around her. no one pats her on the back or cheers her on. not because they don't respect her as a woman but, rather, because they respect her as a human, capable of the same things as any other human. the acceptance of her abilities as being a normal thing is a statement that no one considers her a lesser being that needs congratulated for doing the activities of her 'betters'. and it's her attitude, that her skill is just a normal thing on the water, which fosters this idea: the idea that her womanhood does not make her less than men doing the same thing.

i'm not sure if anyone will see this the same way i do, but that's how i see it. if women consider themselves the equals of men, and men are also supposed to consider them as equals, then there shouldn't be a big fanfare just because they do the same activities. 

you can't hope to have a group seen as being the same as another group if you keep pointing out that they are different.


----------



## Sal Paradise

TomMaine said:


> It has been an interesting thread. The original poster got her answer, 'affirmative', in the first page.
> 
> I just can't believe how many times she's gotten the same answer, since.


Thats so sexist.. assuming it was a woman asking!!


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## captain jack

Minnewaska said:


> If I walk up to a couple, I'm most likely to strike up a conversation with the guy first. No way its sexist. I'm a guy talking to a guy. No presumption on who ranks higher aboard. Most women will strike up a conversation with the woman aboard.


no. see. you are being sexist. women are allowed to address other women, first. you have to pay homage to the woman, before being allowed to address the man. anything else and you are just being sexist!


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## Multihullgirl

Not the same thing as 'strike up conversation with the guy.' My example is, 'once we have initiated a discussion, and woman has made cogent statements, chauvinist still turns to the man as though woman has said nothing or is disinterested.'

It's offensive, and as I've said, husband has noticed it too.


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## TomMaine

Sal Paradise said:


> Thats so sexist.. assuming it was a woman asking!!


Maybe, but some of this stuff is just silly. The sexism I'm talking about is abuse of woman worldwide, and unfortunately here in the US(Maine is one of the worst offenders of this abuse). Murder rates, starvation, this evidence is all easy to find.

Women getting paid 75 to 80 cents to my dollar per hour. Few women in government and biz management, stuff like that. Also documented and easy to find.

Sailing sexism isn't all that bad, likely fighting the "mens club" attitude a lot of sports are dealing with. We can all help there, call the offender out(the offender is not always a man).

But when people come out and say sexism doesn't exist, at any level, or make fun of the concept(same thing), then how do we even begin to correct the first major atrocities I listed?

At best, we'll never correct these problems in the US if we deny they exist. At the worst, denial makes us complicit in the atrocities.

Sexism exists, that part is simple.


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## Minnewaska

Multihullgirl said:


> Not the same thing as 'strike up conversation with the guy.' My example is, 'once we have initiated a discussion, and woman has made cogent statements, chauvinist still turns to the man as though woman has said nothing or is disinterested.'
> 
> It's offensive, and as I've said, husband has noticed it too.


Personally, I really dig it when the woman aboard likes to talk about sailing as much as the guy. However, that is rarely the case.

I even have to wonder if some walk around with a chip on their shoulder over this and convict every guy within site. If I sense an attitude, I will certainly talk with the more welcoming. Doesn't matter the subject. Doesn't matter the gender.


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## Minnewaska

TomMaine said:


> ....Sexism exists, that part is simple.


It certainly does. This thread is about whether it exists in sailing.


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## Sal Paradise

Tom,Tom,

Its a looong long way from " the abuse of women worldwide" to " The Perfect First Mate" which is a book for sailing wives and/or for well off couples who own large sailboats. The book deals with such issues as UV protection and "boat breath".


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## TomMaine

Sal Paradise said:


> Tom,Tom,
> 
> Its a looong long way from " the abuse of women worldwide" to " The Perfect First Mate" which is a book for sailing wives and/or for well off couples who own large sailboats. The book deals with such issues as UV protection and "boat breath".


Yes, Sal, but the OP finished with, "does sexism exist in sailing?"

And I say the OP was answered immediately, affirmative; both by those that recognize sexism exists in our society/therefore-sailing, and by those that said sexism doesn't exist in sailing.

My point is the latter answer, denial of sexism(that's not possible due to evidence to the contrary), keeps sexism alive and well, while proving it's existence.

Someone asked what are we doing to eliminate sexism in sailing? I'm calling out denial, on any level, as the enemy to eliminating sexism, world wide, and in sailing.


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## Sal Paradise

No one can deny that it exists in the world, and that many other horrible and wonderful things also exist in the world, and many things we can't even comprehend.

But anyone can deny that sexism exists in a particular circumstance. That doesn't make them the enemy of anybody or anything, nor does it entail keeping sexism alive. I can however see that line of thinking in some of the responses on this thread.

For the record, the myth that "women earn less than men for the same work" has already been thrown into the dustbin of falsehoods with " alongside men beat their wives after the superbowl"(God how many times did I have to listen to that one!) and a hundred other myths. Its just not true..

http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2013/08/gender_pay_gap_the_familiar_line_that_women_make_77_cents_to_every_man_s.html

I wouldn't rush to judge other couples or crews if what they are doing in their relationships works for them in their particular circumstance. There are many many things we can't comprehend.

By the way, my intitial comment toward you was just a tongue in cheek joke and you are a good sport.Thanks.


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## captain jack

TomMaine said:


> Maybe, but some of this stuff is just silly. The sexism I'm talking about is abuse of woman worldwide, and unfortunately here in the US(Maine is one of the worst offenders of this abuse). Murder rates, starvation, this evidence is all easy to find.
> 
> Women getting paid 75 to 80 cents to my dollar per hour. Few women in government and biz management, stuff like that. Also documented and easy to find.
> 
> Sailing sexism isn't all that bad, likely fighting the "mens club" attitude a lot of sports are dealing with. We can all help there, call the offender out(the offender is not always a man).
> 
> But when people come out and say sexism doesn't exist, at any level, or make fun of the concept(same thing), then how do we even begin to correct the first major atrocities I listed?
> 
> At best, we'll never correct these problems in the US if we deny they exist. At the worst, denial makes us complicit in the atrocities.
> 
> Sexism exists, that part is simple.


no matter what you do...what laws you pass...how much you preach, you will never rid the world of buttholes. racism is stupid but there will always be someone to hate someone else because of race. it's not just whites, either. there are asian racists, latino racists...heck, many black racists think they are justified because they claim minorities can't be racist.

it's kind of like homosexuality and gay marriage. everyone has their own opinion about that and no matter how the homosexual community tries, they will never force everyone to accept their way of life. but that doesn't really matter as long as they are allowed to live their lives as they choose.

you will always have some sexist people. it's not just men, either. i have known some seriously sexist women. in fact, as far as the entertainment industry is concerned, 'reverse sexism' is fine. there are tons of examples in movies and TV ( and female comedians ) of sexist, stereotypical attitudes towards men...stuff that would never be permitted if it was te other way around. and it's ok for women, out on the town, to wolf whistle and yell at guys but a guy who does it is a sexist pig. it's terrible for guys to go to strip clubs and strippers are supposedly being objectified and degraded by their jobs. yet, women go to strip clubs, to watch men strip, and that's ok. in fact, it is my understanding that women are much raunchier at strip clubs than men...and that's ok, too.

it's not a matter of changing everyone's attitude so that it meets with a cetain accepted criteria. that's the thought police. it's a matter of being limited or outcast because of gender. and i don't see that happening in the sailing community.

has anyone actually heard of a sailboat dealer or manufacturer refusing to sell to a woman because of her gender? are there any men's only sailing events? i am not aware of any in the US. there are, however, women's only sailing events. that's sexist, if you come down to it. and, while there may be some sexist buttholes, most of the guys i have known think it's cool for women to sail. the same holds true in the biker community. i can't think of anything i have seen, in the sailing community, that limits women's access to sailing or tries to push them out.

so, if the issue is 'is sailing sexist?' then the answer is absolutely not. if the question is ' are there any buttholes in the sailing community?'...well, that's another story. there will always be buttholes. some of the most PC people i have met are also the biggest buttholes.

the trouble is, if someone is not in a 'protected' group, then they are fair game. you can't say anything about someone's race ( unless they are white ), gender ( as long as that gender is female ), or sexual preference and you can't say sanything about mentally challenged or handicapped people. but you can say anything you want to about fat people. although the majority of Americans are overweight, we just love to pick on, insult, harrass, and poke fun at overweight people....and that's ok, too, because they aren't a 'protected' group. no one cares if you screw with fat people. and it's ok to mess with blondes, too. although, since only one ethnic group produces blondes ( naturally ), i think that is really a bit racist.

if you ask me, the whole PC thing isn't fair. it just determines who it is ok to be a butthole to. instead of protecting certain 'special' groups, perhaps we should just try to get people to stop acting like buttheads...teach respect for everyone, not just certain groups.


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## captain jack

TomMaine said:


> Yes, Sal, but the OP finished with, "does sexism exist in sailing?"
> 
> And I say the OP was answered immediately, affirmative; both by those that recognize sexism exists in our society/therefore-sailing, and by those that said sexism doesn't exist in sailing.
> 
> My point is the latter answer, denial of sexism(that's not possible due to evidence to the contrary), keeps sexism alive and well, while proving it's existence.
> 
> Someone asked what are we doing to eliminate sexism in sailing? I'm calling out denial, on any level, as the enemy to eliminating sexism, world wide, and in sailing.


so, let me see if i understand you. if you say something is not sexist, because you have not seen evidence that it is sexist, then you are sexist?


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## titustiger27

We need more men to say sexism doesn't exist.


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## TomMaine

captain jack said:


> so, let me see if i understand you. if you say something is not sexist, because you have not seen evidence that it is sexist, then you are sexist?


Good question. We'd need some data to prove my point, or yours.

If we could get; # of women owning boats, racing, racing as captains, racing professionally $, running their own racing campaign, members of yacht-boat clubs, in high positions in boating organizations.

Then maybe in the marine industry, number of women building boats, managing building boats, running sailing oriented businesses, running marinas, fixing boats, women that manage marine businesses, female charter captains.

Instruction, # of women that teach sailing instruction, riggers, sailmakers, that's enough to get a sense of any gender gap sailing.

If we find these stats show a reasonable ratio of women compared to men in those groups, say 30-40%(they are half the population), then I guess you're right. Then I will admit there isn't any sexism in sailing.

But if we find a mere fraction of these spots in the sailing world are filled by women, how do we explain that?

Can we then say there is no sexism in sailing, because some don't see it?


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## unimacs

Personally I think sexism exists throughout society and in sailing. However, where it all gets a little confusing for me is whether or not you can assume that the fact that only 10% of the people in a given role (like rigger for example) are women is the result of sexism.

I work in the IT industry and have for 25 years now. It's heavily male dominated even though some notable pioneers were women. There were quite a few women in my college level courses (though definitely not 50%) and I had a number of female colleagues over the first 10 years of my career but fewer and fewer since.

The first software developer I ever hired to work for me was a woman. That was over 15 years ago. The last time I tried to fill a developer position 6 months ago, there were exactly 0 female applicants.

So is that fact that we have no female developers in our organization due to sexism or something else? Now, I'm sure sexism plays a role but I have to think a large part of it is just the choice on the part of women not to pursue that kind of career. 

Are there some woman who'd like to go into software development but don't because they'd feel out of place or unwelcome? Probably. Is there some sort of subconscious gender training that steers women away from that kind of work? Probably. Are these the only reasons? I don't think so.


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## captain jack

TomMaine said:


> Good question. We'd need some data to prove my point, or yours.
> 
> If we could get; # of women owning boats, racing, racing as captains, racing professionally $, running their own racing campaign, members of yacht-boat clubs, in high positions in boating organizations.
> 
> Then maybe in the marine industry, number of women building boats, managing building boats, running sailing oriented businesses, running marinas, fixing boats, women that manage marine businesses, female charter captains.
> 
> Instruction, # of women that teach sailing instruction, riggers, sailmakers, that's enough to get a sense of any gender gap sailing.
> 
> If we find these stats show a reasonable ratio of women compared to men in those groups, say 30-40%(they are half the population), then I guess you're right. Then I will admit there isn't any sexism in sailing.
> 
> But if we find a mere fraction of these spots in the sailing world are filled by women, how do we explain that?
> 
> Can we then say there is no sexism in sailing, because some don't see it?


A woman owns the marina where i keep my boat.

i think the flaw in yoour logic is that, if at least 30% to 40% of the participants of a given activity aren't women, then that activity must be sexist. that means that any activity must have a 60/40 to 70/30 gender mix or it is sexist.

that would mean that quilting circles are hideously sexist.

of course, that is unless you are sexist and only apply your rules in favor of women.

the truth is, certain activities appeal to certain groups more than other groups. it's like motorcycles. every male biker i know thinks chicks that own their own bikes are cool. i think it's not only cool but very useful. if only the husband rides, you have to stop taking bike trips, once kids start arriving. if both partners ride you can have up to 2 kids and still get to take bike trips.

however, many women love to ride on the back of a guy's bike but a much smaller number want to ride their own bike. that number has increased but i'm willing to bet all the money in my wallet it's not a 60/40 mix.

does that mean that motorcycle riding is sexist? no. it means a lot more women want to be passengers than drivers, on motorcycles.

all the girlfriends i have had, since i began sailing, have loved it. guess how many have continued sailing since we broke up? none of them. is that sexist? not unless you think the cure for such 'sexism' is to go out and force the needed percentage of the female population to take up these activities, even if it's against their will.

" i don't care what you want to do. you will become a sailor. because it's not about your free will. it's about sexism. and i'm willing to deny women freedom if it means eradicating sexism."

or, perhaps if an activity does not appeal to a 60/40 mix of the population, based on gender, it should be outlawed so no one can participate in it. of course, that spells doom to quilters.

and what about all the women's magazines? or the men's health magazines? are they sexist, since they only appeal to one gender or the other? perhaps all gender specific magazines should be banned, too.

is that how it has to be for something not to be sexist? or is it equal opportunity to pursue an activity, rather than equal numbers, that decide if something is sexist or not?


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## jmessick

_"Although either of the sexes are free to choose their educational direction and occupations in the free industrialized world, there remains a much greater proportion of men in engineering, math, architecture, the physical sciences, mechanics, construction, and computer science."_

I hate to burst your little male bubble, but this statement just isn't true any more. Many schools of architecture are more than 50% female, and the trend is quickly heading that way in many of the engineering fields as well. Actually, the women are outperforming men in math in many areas.

Jeff ... a 67 year old architect


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## Donna_F

jmessick said:


> ...
> I hate to burst your little male bubble, but this statement just isn't true any more. Many schools of architecture are more than 50% female, and the trend is quickly heading that way in many of the engineering fields as well. Actually, the women are outperforming men in math in many areas.
> 
> Jeff ... a 67 year old architect


I've heard this as well. Not specifically for the architectural field, but the decades-long push to get more women into math and science has resulted in more women going into math and science with the men/boys numbers falling behind.


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## WinterRiver

DRFerron said:


> I've heard this as well. Not specifically for the architectural field, but the decades-long push to get more women into math and science has resulted in more women going into math and science with the men/boys numbers falling behind.


I believe the number of girls is rising, but there is still has a long way to go. At a recent high school robotics competition I counted 10 girls out of 40 team leaders, and of the top 24 teams my daughter  was the only girl. I couldn't count all the kids, but it seemed like it was less than 1/4 girls.

Girls make up about half of the math and science classes in the high school, but my daughter is the only girl in her engineering/tech class.


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## Sal Paradise

jmessick;1226985
I hate to burst your little male bubble said:


> Nope. Its mostly guys. I graduated architecture school 20 odd years ago and then it was mostly guys... did a tour of a bunch of architecture schools last year with my son , almost all boys in our groups..... kid ended up in engineering (yaa!) ,again mostly guys. Not that he is happy about that fact,quite the reverse. BTW - little advice here; keep your kid out of architecture, its a terrible field.
> 
> We have 3 architects and one assistant architect in my firm. All the architects are men. The assistant is a woman. I am her official NCARB mentor and I actually recruited her. Unfortunately, she way is too scared of making mistakes and too reluctant to take responsibility for the building design and she has decided on her own ( to my dismay) to never pursue her license and just assist.
> 
> As for motorcycling, of which I am also a member - its almost all guys. I bought my wife her own motorcycle years ago and she rode my bikes too. When she was young she was a halfway decent rider but as she got older she became, in her own words, too scared. Its okay.
> 
> Motorcycling is almost all guys. Most guys, myself included , love riding with momen. They give a great perspective. Difference is you don't hear many women complaining about the overwhelming number of guys. My guess is the women motorcyclists are a bit more adventurous and have learned to enjoy it.
> 
> Sal Paradise, Registered Architect


----------



## captain jack

Sal Paradise said:


> As for motorcycling, of which I am also a member - its almost all guys. I bought my wife her own motorcycle years ago and she rode my bikes too. When she was young she was a halfway decent rider but as she got older she became, in her own words, too scared. Its okay.
> 
> Motorcycling is almost all guys. Most guys, myself included , love riding with momen. They give a great perspective. Difference is you don't hear many women complaining about the overwhelming number of guys. My guess is the women motorcyclists are a bit more adventurous and have learned to enjoy it.
> 
> Sal Paradise, Registered Architect


yeah. that's what i was pointing out. in America, at least, i wouldn't say more than one in ten motorcycle owners are women. however, every guy i know that rides thinks it's awesome when they see women riding their own bikes. and it's no question that women love to ride on motorcycles. however, most women don't seem to have any interest in riding their own bikes. why? i don't know but it is certainly not because motorcycle riding is sexist. i think there are just certain things that attract women ( or men, for that matter ) and certain things that don't. biker women are very outspoken yet you never hear discussions like this in the motorcycle community. so, it would seem, the women who ride don't seem to think the fact that many more men own bikes is sexist.

it's been suggested that it's sexist because, in a lot of cases, men and women take certain chores as belonging to one or the other. but i don't see that as an argument with merit, either. i work on the cars. my GF does most of the cooking. notice i said most and not all. of course, i am the one who knows how to work on cars. she is a better, all around, cook. is it sexist that she doesn't do half of the car work and i don't do more of the cooking? no. she doesn't know how to work on cars and, although she enjoys having me explain what i am doing to her, she has no interest in actually doing it. believe me. i have a lot on my plate. if she wanted to take the auto work off of my hands, i'd let her. it would be less work for me to worry about.

it's easy to see discrimination in everything you see, if you have that frame of mind. that doesn't mean it's there. it's easy to be paranoid, if you smoke pot, but that doesn't mean anyone is really out to get you or that there is a cop behind every noise you hear.


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## Sal Paradise

I think you are onto something there, jack. I can only add that its weird the way the guys literally fall all over the place goofy eyed and giddy when they see my wife take off her helmet and that blond hair fall out. OMG - a woman rider!!! 

And riding with her in our group they are thrilled that she is with us. I mean, to me its almost embarassing attention but she seems like she either doesn't notice or she likes it. I really don't care. But its ridiculous. The guys are beside themselves with happiness that we have a woman rider in the group. Still, she isn't really interested.

I think that is something that women don't understand about men - how much guys enjoy sharing activities like sailing or riding with a woman.


----------



## PaulKroll

Their are problems with sexism everywhere. I used to be involved with feminist groups and "identify as feminist" as they say. Then I realized there was a much larger agenda at work that I wasn't on board with at all. I'm egalitarian about it, I think the system we have is something that evolved not something a bunch of men or people in general sat down and created. [text removed] I could go on but suffice it to say, yes, there's a problem, and no feminism is no solution. There has to be a better way, a gender neutral and to borrow one of the left wing extremists own buzz words a more "inclusive" way to get rid of this dehumanizing situation. Then, we can live like people not live stock segregated by our sex into roles .


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## WGEwald

The word _sexist_ has become as meaningless as the word _racist_...

Fodder for easily offended people. Who needs them?


----------



## Nancyleeny

WGEwald said:


> The word _sexist_ has become as meaningless as the word _racist_...
> 
> Fodder for easily offended people. Who needs them?


Really? I know lots of racists and sexists, sadly. What should we call people who use the "n" word, and call women "bitches"? And does the fact that I find those words and attitudes wrong mean I am easily offended?? I am clutching my pearls and getting the vapors as I type!! 
Nancy


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## WGEwald

Nancyleeny said:


> Really? I know lots of racists and sexists, sadly. What should we call people who use the "n" word, and call women "bitches"? And does the fact that I find those words and attitudes wrong mean I am easily offended?? I am clutching my pearls and getting the vapors as I type!!
> Nancy


That's called a strawman argument, Nancy. And just to acknowledge equality, the strawman in the UK is called an "Aunt Sally."


----------



## captain jack

Nancyleeny said:


> Really? I know lots of racists and sexists, sadly. What should we call people who use the "n" word, and call women "bitches"? And does the fact that I find those words and attitudes wrong mean I am easily offended?? I am clutching my pearls and getting the vapors as I type!!
> Nancy


interestingly, 3/4 of the peope who regularly use " the N word" ( the N word: because, like a bunch of little kids asking our parents about cuss words, we are not mature enough to say the word in a discussion about it's use) are black. i know this for sure because my GF is black and i have a lot of black friends and co workers. also interestingly, loads of feminist types seem to find being called a ***** to be a compliment. why, i don't know but, it's true.

and, if words upset you that much then, yes, you are too sensitive. if words can get you that upset and stressed, i can only imagine what having to deal with real problems, emergencies, and bad situations would do to you.

whatever happened to "sticks and stones may break my bones but words can never hurt me"? guess we've become too delicate and fragile for that, now. good thing the people of today don't have to face the world our ancestors had to face. if we did, the human race would be doomed. let's face it, if a word can throw a person in a tissy, having to deal with real hardship or danger would certainly be too much for them.


----------



## captain jack

PaulKroll said:


> There has to be a better way, a gender neutral and to borrow one of the left wing extremists own buzz words a more "inclusive" way to get rid of this dehumanizing situation. Then, we can live like people not live stock, segregated by our sex into roles .


i liked a good bit of your post but i have to raise a point about this. like live stock, we are animals. except for asexual animals, all animals are, by nature, separated by gender. each gender has it's own qualities that it is born with that, when combined with the other gender, allows the species to survive and propogate.

as with most communal mammals, males are primarily designed for defense and to provide while child rearing is under way. females are primarily designed to nurture and teach the young. notice that men have higher aggression, greater body strength (naturally built with heavier frames and a greater abiity to build muscle mass) while women have mammary glands and hips designed to carry children...not to mention wombs to give birth to them. did you know that, although men are more resistant to pain, as a rule, women are born with a far greater tolerance for abdominal pain? women can deal with abdominal pain that woud have a man in a fetal position, on the ground. it's an evolutionary quality they are born with to fufill the role that nature saw fit to give them. thankfuly so. if men had to give birth, i seriously doubt we'd see too many future generations.

each gender has it's own physical, mental, and emotional qualities that are specific to that gender and are qualities that have develped, through evolution to allow for the survival of the species. this is not to say that, in most areas, men and women can not perform the same tasks; only that we are separated and differentiated by gender naturally.

this is not an unnatural state we impose on livestock or on ourselves. it is a natural state of animal life on this planet... each species after it's own nature.


----------



## captain jack

that's one of the things about the feminist movement that has always bothered me. throughout the 70s and 80s, they have put down motherhood (calling housewives leeches and prostitues and only giving worth to "working women" as if mothers don't do any work) and anything actually feminine. they push the idea that women can only have worth if they do what men do. so, what they are really saying is that, by nature, women have no worth. that they have to shun their natural quaities and roles and become as men to have any worth. that's disturbing. not only is it important for women to give birth but, women have always shaped and maintained the fabric of human society by teaching children the proper way to be as a member of that society, during the most important learning years of life. what more important function could anyone possibly have? if the children are the future, then the people (mothers) who shape and guide those children must be the most important part of society. 

i refer everyone to the Norse story of Agnar and Geirrod and how they were raised by Odin and his wife, Frigga. it really puts this in perspective.


----------



## Donna_F

We are really getting far from the original intent of this thread.


----------



## Nancyleeny

OK, the usual argument for racism and sexism appears, "They say it, so it's not racist/sexist." Please. And if I had a dime for every strawman that shows up on controversial threads, I would be a gazillionaire!! And would be able to buy my own boat! 
Nancy


----------



## captain jack

DRFerron said:


> We are really getting far from the original intent of this thread.


i agree. however, it seems to be inevitable that a discussion of whether something is sexist or not...in other words, whether it is exclusionary or derrogotorry to women...ends up with someone saying something to the effect that gender considerations/differences are man made and sexist and could/should somehow dissappear as if gender doesn't exist. it's a valid point when considering race but not gender. as in most things in life, humans exist in a dichotomy. yin and yang. day and night, life and death, light and dark, summer and winter...man and woman. two distinct halves that make up the whole.

i just wanted to address the implication because i do think that, not only is it unrealistic but, it obscures the actual issue; that being whether sailing is exclusionary or belittling towards women.


----------



## ScottUK

Regardless of sexual dimorphism we all have a brain and that is where sexism originates. It is difficult to control our thoughts but we should be able to control our actions.


----------



## Multihullgirl

After reading this thread, I understand just how she feels:

Voodoo Mama Hot Sauce - YouTube


----------



## WGEwald

DRFerron said:


> We are really getting far from the original intent of this thread.


Yeah, but just to add this: It's a shame that the word _gender_ became interchangeable with the word _sex_.






And this: couldn't we tell nothing good was going to come from the subforum when it started with such tedious finger-wagging?

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/hersailnet/37302-hersailnet-ground-rules.html


----------



## captain jack

ScottUK said:


> Regardless of sexual dimorphism we all have a brain and that is where sexism originates. It is difficult to control our thoughts but we should be able to control our actions.


yeah. but what does that actualy mean in this discussion?

i almost think the word sexism needs to be defined for the purpose of the discussion. to my mind, sexism is descrimination, exclusion, and negative treatment based on gender. it can happen to either gender. for instance, all male events or organizations are considered sexist yet all female events or organizations are not...yet, they most certainly are sexist in that they are exclusionary to people of another gender.

however, some people seem to think that because people of one gender or the other are naturally drawn to a certain activity more than another gender that it means that activity is sexist. or that people tend to adopt chores or tasks, naturally, in a pattern that seems to reflect a gender preference for certain tasks over others that those people are sexist. yet, if people naturally choose certain things over others, not being forced to it, how can it be sexist?

if you look back through the thread, you will see what i mean in the above examples.

so, i really think a solid accepted definition is necessary before it can be determined if a things is sexist. otherwise, you get people comparing apples to oranges. i think the discussion to determine said definition will be just as heated and controvercial as this one; maybe moreso.


----------



## WGEwald

miatapaul said:


> Well I am disappointed on my phone I thought this was "is sailing sexy."
> 
> I will say if this forum's conservative bend is any indication it might be. There is also the fact that there cannot be true equality in real offshore sailing. Some one has to be in charge, in emergency situations decisions are made and followed. This is important to safety of all involved. To me it would not matter who is making the decisions man or woman. For me I would not have issues with taking orders from a female captain. But I know for some it would be an issue. I would love to find a woman to sail with.
> 
> Sent from my ADR6425LVW using Tapatalk 2


Your post reminds me of _The Perfect Storm_ (the book) where the male skipper of the yacht caught in the storm kept to his bunk and his female crew had to make the decisions about getting rescued. I believe my memory is mostly correct.


----------



## Donna_F

WGEwald said:


> Your post reminds me of _The Perfect Storm_ (the book) where the male skipper of the yacht caught in the storm kept to his bunk and his female crew had to make the decisions about getting rescued. I believe my memory is mostly correct.


It has been a while since I read the book, but it was my understanding that the male skipper/owner of the Westsail had been through several hurricanes already on that boat and knew what the boat was capable of handling and that was why he didn't want to call the Coast Guard. One of the women called and once the call was made, there was no reversing it.

The boat survived.


----------



## Multihullgirl

The reason the owner didn't want to call the CG is that the boat was all he had, and he knew the CG would make him abandon the boat.


----------



## WGEwald

northoceanbeach said:


> Who won the last America's cup?
> 
> Larry Ellison, Russell Couts, James Spithill.
> 
> Has a woman ever won?


Ellison has a history of excluding women, I believe. Also, see my post on the ADM vs. GGYC settlement.


----------



## WGEwald

Minnewaska said:


> Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. If you want to see sexism, it will remain.


Fifty-five years ago Alexander King wrote, "Some people see obscenity in the crotches of trees."

I still think that's funny.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_King_(author)


----------



## TomMaine

WGEwald said:


> The word _sexist_ has become as meaningless as the word _racist_...
> 
> Fodder for easily offended people. Who needs them?


You can't be serious.


----------



## WGEwald

TomMaine said:


> You can't be serious.


Can be. Am. Deal with it.


----------



## WGEwald

Multihullgirl said:


> The reason the owner didn't want to call the CG is that the boat was all he had, and he knew the CG would make him abandon the boat.


Got it. I forgot that detail.


----------



## seafrontiersman

WGEwald said:


> The word _sexist_ has become as meaningless as the word _racist_...
> 
> Fodder for easily offended people. Who needs them?


Exactly! Great point!


----------



## TomMaine

WGEwald said:


> The word _sexist_ has become as meaningless as the word _racist_...
> 
> Fodder for easily offended people. Who needs them?


I probably did deal with it- the OP question;sexism in sailing, about 30 pages before you posted this new statement above.

For those around the world that have suffered-and continue to suffer today(many with their lives) -from racism and sexism, denial is a slap in their face.


----------



## Minnewaska

I read the point as the accusations and terms are so overused, it actual dilutes the cause wherever it is real. I do agree with that. That's not denial.


----------



## clip68

Wow this thread went down the tubes!


----------



## Multihullgirl

308 posts.

by my best estimate, 78 of them from females.

Some 'HerSailnet' this is...


----------



## Minnewaska

Multihullgirl said:


> 308 posts.
> 
> by my best estimate, 78 of them from females.
> 
> Some 'HerSailnet' this is...


I do not favor segregation in any form.


----------



## WGEwald

Multihullgirl said:


> 308 posts.
> 
> by my best estimate, 78 of them from females.
> 
> Some 'HerSailnet' this is...


The whole concept should have been strangled in the crib.


----------



## Donna_F

I suppose it's inevitable that this thread gets off the beaten track but please, maintain some level of civility. Nothing says we have to think alike, but we can discuss opposing ideas without beating each other up and engaging in personal attacks (however cleverly cloaked).

I was never into the hardcore feminist movement like some wrote about here. I'm not against it but extremism isn't my thing. But I do believe that I (and all women) have been a beneficiary as I feel free to choose my path as a female. Some days are Little Black Dress days and some days are rebuild the head days. Some days I feel like standing up for an ideology, some days I don't. To me the main benefit of that movement was the (perhaps perceived) notion of being able to choose.

Every woman, just like every man, approaches sailing differently. Some women lack the self-confidence to try docking on their own, some women don't give it another thought and just do it. I learned to sail because I wanted to learn to sail. Just like I did with kayaking, scuba, and whatever other activity I wanted to try. The fact that I would have a problem doing any of it because I'm a woman never crossed my mind. What other people thought of me doing it never crossed my mind. I really don't think of it much at all until I read this thread.

There have been some harsh words thrown out in this thread. Again, I get that it's inevitable. I get the attitude that feels "life is harsh, deal with it" but I will try to stand for those women who have told me those attitudes are the main reason they don't participate more in forums and tend to just read and for those women who prefer that this forum follow the original intent. So, one reason why there are fewer women responding in HerSailnet let alone across the entire site. 

One thing that crosses my mind when I read a comment, usually from a male but not always, saying that he or she is against having a forum like this, is what happens to the women who are feeling their way? The ones who have been continually put down and are trying to break out of that pattern in baby steps? The ones who *thought* HerSailNet was a safe place to ask a question without being belittled? Do we simply let Darwinism kick in? It's really not about a segregated forum because those people who are going to attack them will do it *out there*, too. Those people who will be blunt to the point of being hurtful will be no matter where. But, the people who started herSailNet way back when thought it was worth a shot if it helped the less self-confident get into sailing and get enough of a foundation to sail into the big, "bad" outside world. At least they were trying to reach out. They tried to help. Whether it worked, I don't know. Probably not. Comments about how they shouldn't have tried serve no useful purpose, I don't think.

It really isn't segregated because, unlike the women-only forum on CF or the couple of women in sailing Facebook groups I belong to, men are allowed to post here.

In my mind, the women and men who can stand up to sarcasm and snarky remarks, the women and men who can but choose their battles and this is not one of them, the women and men who feel too intimidated but want to learn, they all deserve respect no matter how they choose to approach life (unless, of course, they are total flat out jerks or serial killers).


----------



## WGEwald

eryka said:


> I'm very much of two minds about this - I appreciate the spirit in which it was meant, and at the same time hope I'm strong enough to take care of myself out there in the big world...
> 
> Other opinions?
> 
> I have the same ambivalence about "women-only" sailing instruction, but perhaps that's fodder for a separate thread.


I liked Eryka's post. Was she really banned? Why?


----------



## Donna_F

WGEwald said:


> I liked Eryka's post. Was she really banned? Why?


She was not. She had an unfortunate incident with identity theft. I think at the time that was the best way the moderators felt to close that user name without losing her posts. She is still here but under a different name.


----------



## Donna_F

WGEwald said:


> The whole concept should have been strangled in the crib.


You're spending a good bit of time in herSailNet. You don't have to.


----------



## WGEwald

DRFerron said:


> She was not. She had an unfortunate incident with identity theft. I think at the time that was the best way the moderators felt to close that user name without losing her posts. She is still here but under a different name.


Thanks for the clarification.


----------



## Sublime

Sexism is prevalent for both genders.
Men and women gravitating to one sport/chore/event is more complicated than genes. Men and women are encouraged by parents, friends, society, etc to behave a certain way. And it starts the moment they leave the womb.

A pink hat goes on the newborn girl. A blue hat goes on the newborn boy. Little boys have their rooms decorated in blue with super heroes, cars and planes. Girls get pink rooms with dolls and stuffed animals. 
Boys are dressed in pants and shirts and when they dirty their pants, adults roll their eyes saying "boys will be boys". Girls get dresses and are scolded for getting dirty. 
Boys get footballs, boats and toy trucks to play with. Girls get dolls which they dress. Sometimes they are baby dolls that they feed, practice changing diapers, etc. They get pretty hair ties and toy makeup.

Eventually they align with the roles given to them via positive and negative reinforcement from society, parents, friends, etc as well as them observing those of the same gender. It continues throughout life where both genders are encouraged to act one way, discouraged to act another. It comes from parents, TV shows, friends, movies, commercials. 
You end up with men who "aren't sensitive" (which I think men in general are _more_ sensitive than women are-breakups are incredibly rough on them) and women who "are afraid to get dirty". Or men who "can't cook" and women who "can't do math". All ridiculous assertions. Men are perfectly able to cook. Women are perfectly able to do math. It's been proven over and over again that men and women are equally good cooking and at math. Men are sensitive otherwise they'd be robots. Women are perfectly capable of getting dirty.
You know, in a study, math and science scores went down for girls when it was suggested before a test that girls weren't as good in math and science as boys were. Nothing had changed except for someone planting a seed of doubt. Yet girls are constantly bombarded with things like that.

This shirt says it all.








^And some girls/women would be proud to wear that.

Think about your child. How upset would you be knowing someone was causing your child to doubt themselves, cause their scores to lower, cause them to neglect skills they have by whispering such ugly things to them? Well, it happens everywhere, every day, all of the time and not many are aware of it.

Occasionally you find someone who shrugs all of the outside influences, tomboys and such. By the way, what is the equivalent term for men? What do you call a man who wants to sew or cook dinner? Doesn't it say a lot that most terms you'd call a man with interests familiar to women are derogatory? So lets not forget what men go through.

Men are subject to such ridicule if they show anything other than what society deems men should and unfortunately are not offered the same protection women available to women for it. 
A man who honestly considers his wife or girlfriend's thoughts is "whipped" or she's "got his balls in her purse". If they cry then they're a pansy. If they want to bake a cake, then people call him a **** in a derogatory way. It's gotten even worse for them because TV shows and commercials are picturing them as complete idiots who are barely able to tie their own shoes without the instruction of a woman. And I can't tell you how many conversations strange women start with me to break the ice about "their stupid husband". I always think "Well, you married him so I guess that makes two idiots." 
So you see, both sides are subject. These days, I think men might have it worse.

If you really study society, you'll get disgusted by all of the outside influences stripping people of both genders of their individuality because these influences are so incredibly powerful.

Until society, family, friends, stop putting pressure on both sexes to act a certain way, we'll never be rid of it. That won't happen until people decide they've had enough with being put into a box.

Is sailing sexist? No.


----------



## captain jack

Minnewaska said:


> I do not favor segregation in any form.


right; because when you exclude someone based on their gender you are being sexist regardless of whether that exclusion is men excluding women or women excluding men ( which, in our moderrn word is thought of as not only ok but as excelent. everyone is al for an all woman group or event but dead set against anything all male).

the same can be said of any form of descrimination. however, so-called "reverse" descrimination is usualy justified, if not outright applauded, in modern society. descrimination is descrimination.


----------



## captain jack

Sublime said:


> Sexism is prevalent for both genders.
> Men and women gravitating to one sport/chore/event is more complicated than genes. Men and women are encouraged by parents, friends, society, etc to behave a certain way. And it starts the moment they leave the womb.
> 
> A pink hat goes on the newborn girl. A blue hat goes on the newborn boy. Little boys have their rooms decorated in blue with super heroes, cars and planes. Girls get pink rooms with dolls and stuffed animals.
> Boys are dressed in pants and shirts and when they dirty their pants, adults roll their eyes saying "boys will be boys". Girls get dresses and are scolded for getting dirty.
> Boys get footballs, boats and toy trucks to play with. Girls get dolls which they dress. Sometimes they are baby dolls that they feed, practice changing diapers, etc. They get pretty hair ties and toy makeup.
> 
> Eventually they align with the roles given to them via positive and negative reinforcement from society, parents, friends, etc as well as them observing those of the same gender. It continues throughout life where both genders are encouraged to act one way, discouraged to act another. It comes from parents, TV shows, friends, movies, commercials.
> You end up with men who "aren't sensitive" (which I think men in general are _more_ sensitive than women are-breakups are incredibly rough on them) and women who "are afraid to get dirty". Or men who "can't cook" and women who "can't do math". All ridiculous assertions. Men are perfectly able to cook. Women are perfectly able to do math. It's been proven over and over again that men and women are equally good cooking and at math. Men are sensitive otherwise they'd be robots. Women are perfectly capable of getting dirty.
> You know, in a study, math and science scores went down for girls when it was suggested before a test that girls weren't as good in math and science as boys were. Nothing had changed except for someone planting a seed of doubt. Yet girls are constantly bombarded with things like that.
> 
> This shirt says it all.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ^And some girls/women would be proud to wear that.
> 
> Think about your child. How upset would you be knowing someone was causing your child to doubt themselves, cause their scores to lower, cause them to neglect skills they have by whispering such ugly things to them? Well, it happens everywhere, every day, all of the time and not many are aware of it.
> 
> Occasionally you find someone who shrugs all of the outside influences, tomboys and such. By the way, what is the equivalent term for men? What do you call a man who wants to sew or cook dinner? Doesn't it say a lot that most terms you'd call a man with interests familiar to women are derogatory? So lets not forget what men go through.
> 
> Men are subject to such ridicule if they show anything other than what society deems men should and unfortunately are not offered the same protection women available to women for it.
> A man who honestly considers his wife or girlfriend's thoughts is "whipped" or she's "got his balls in her purse". If they cry then they're a pansy. If they want to bake a cake, then people call him a **** in a derogatory way. It's gotten even worse for them because TV shows and commercials are picturing them as complete idiots who are barely able to tie their own shoes without the instruction of a woman. And I can't tell you how many conversations strange women start with me to break the ice about "their stupid husband". I always think "Well, you married him so I guess that makes two idiots."
> So you see, both sides are subject. These days, I think men might have it worse.
> 
> If you really study society, you'll get disgusted by all of the outside influences stripping people of both genders of their individuality because these influences are so incredibly powerful.
> 
> Until society, family, friends, stop putting pressure on both sexes to act a certain way, we'll never be rid of it. That won't happen until people decide they've had enough with being put into a box.
> 
> Is sailing sexist? No.


a great and fair minded post! kudos to you!

the nurture/nature argument. there is a ot of nurture involved however, especialy with today's entertainment industry having so many movies with beautiful yet deadly, tough, heroic women that save the day, i'd say it's not as much as it used to be. there is an increasing amount of scientific evidence that suggests a ot more of our personaities is genetic than we formerly thought.

by the way, a guy that crys a lot is a pansy and i don't think anyone ever calls a dude **** in a good way. 

as far as society encouraging certain roles and behaviors based on gender, those aren't the evil that a ot of people seem to think. it is a matter of survival of the species. when your family group is faced with death by an attacking beast, tribe, or space alien do you realy want the males, those designed by nature to be physically better at fighting and killing, to be sitting around crying in fear whie the only ones that nature saw fit to give the ability to bear and nurse young wade in to their possible deaths?

and kids playing with socialy approved gender role toys is simply a reflection of the play of all species. young lions play at stalking and hunting and killing....because that's what they will have to do as adults and it's good preliminary training.

boys have aways played with war toys or construction toys or other such things because that would be the tasks expected of them as adults. the same goes with girls playing with dolls, especially ones that are like babies. play is prepation for life.

certain gender roles don't really mean anything in modern society. the man is no longer necessarily going to be the bread winner. some gender roes will never be meaningless. i don't think you will ever see guys giving birth.

not sexist just reality.

anyhow... again, awesome post.


----------



## WGEwald

DRFerron said:


> You're spending a good bit of time in herSailNet. You don't have to.


You can be as snippy as you want, but tell me how really valuable it's content has been. And you people who have been throwing around the word "gal" ought to know that a true feminist sees _that_ word as offensive as the word _"n****r."_


----------



## Donna_F

WGEwald said:


> You can be as snippy as you want,...


Thanks. 



WGEwald said:


> ...but tell me how really valuable it's content has been. ...


Obviously to you it has not been. Which is why I wonder why you continue to post here.



WGEwald said:


> ... you people who have been throwing around the word "gal" ought to know that a true feminist sees _that_ word as offensive as the word _"n****r."_


Since I've never used the term "gal" I'm sure this isn't directed at me so I'll leave the others to respond.


----------



## captain jack

WGEwald said:


> You can be as snippy as you want, but tell me how really valuable it's content has been. And you people who have been throwing around the word "gal" ought to know that a true feminist sees _that_ word as offensive as the word _"n****r."_


now now. be a little cautious with that word 'snippy', the jusy recently gave us another 'B' word that you can't say ( bossy ...oops! i said it. sorry ). you don't want another 'S' word that you can't say. remember George Carlin's bit about the words you can't say on TV? in our modern ultra sensitive mode, that bit would take a lot longer.

and, of course, that's how the first 'B' word became a cuss word. people didn't ike being insulted by being referred to as a femae dog so a perfectly good, innocent, and grammaticaly correct word got banned.


----------



## WGEwald

I'm going to take Donna's suggestion, so this will be my last post in the thread.

Just have to say it's amusing to me that privileged white women of the yachty set can see themselves as victims of discrimination.

That's just _Onion_ material.

Woman Takes Short Half-Hour Break From Being Feminist To Enjoy TV Show | The Onion - America's Finest News Source


----------



## Donna_F

WGEwald said:


> ...
> Just have to say it's amusing to me that privileged white women of the yachty set can see themselves as victims of discrimination.
> 
> ...


Oh, the irony.


----------



## tdw

If instrinsic value was the defining reason for the internet and if that which was so valuable the only thing here there'd not be a lot of content.

The word 'gal' is not in fact necessarily considered offensive by 'true feminists'. Reality is that it is all in the context. 

Oh yes and Mr WGEwald ..... tread lightly. Her SailNet is not in Off Topic. Sailing forum rules apply and that means be civil.


----------



## Sublime

captain jack said:


> a great and fair minded post! kudos to you!
> 
> the nurture/nature argument. there is a ot of nurture involved however, especialy with today's entertainment industry having so many movies with beautiful yet deadly, tough, heroic women that save the day, i'd say it's not as much as it used to be. there is an increasing amount of scientific evidence that suggests a ot more of our personaities is genetic than we formerly thought.
> 
> by the way, a guy that crys a lot is a pansy and i don't think anyone ever calls a dude **** in a good way.
> 
> as far as society encouraging certain roles and behaviors based on gender, those aren't the evil that a ot of people seem to think. it is a matter of survival of the species. when your family group is faced with death by an attacking beast, tribe, or space alien do you realy want the males, those designed by nature to be physically better at fighting and killing, to be sitting around crying in fear whie the only ones that nature saw fit to give the ability to bear and nurse young wade in to their possible deaths?
> 
> and kids playing with socialy approved gender role toys is simply a reflection of the play of all species. young lions play at stalking and hunting and killing....because that's what they will have to do as adults and it's good preliminary training.
> 
> boys have aways played with war toys or construction toys or other such things because that would be the tasks expected of them as adults. the same goes with girls playing with dolls, especially ones that are like babies. play is prepation for life.
> 
> certain gender roles don't really mean anything in modern society. the man is no longer necessarily going to be the bread winner. some gender roes will never be meaningless. i don't think you will ever see guys giving birth.
> 
> not sexist just reality.
> 
> anyhow... again, awesome post.


I'm not sure you're understanding my point.

You validated my argument though. You call a man who cries a "pansy". I know extremely tough men who do cry, tougher and braver than some I know who "refuse" to cry. Yet he'd be labeled a pansy by you because tears ran down his face and not by a measure of his true character.

So if it is personality that is the reason of why one gender over another gravitates towards certain tasks and mannerisms, then how do you explain such a generalized pattern when we all have individual personalities?

Yes, play is preparation for life for some species. However, society still encourages girls and boys to act differently yet many jobs traditionally held for men are now employing women. So how does encouragement to play with dolls and stay clean help a woman who is running a construction business if play is so important to preparation for life?
If play was indeed a way to prepare them for life, why not take away the toys and hand them a pretend bank account and hand them play bills crafted out of brightly colored construction paper? Or is the type of play we encouraged obsolete?

Is it fair that boys are handed toy cars, boats, planes to play with. Those are luxury items. And girls are given items like a toy oven, a baby changing table, etc? Cooking and cleaning, aren't those chores? Why must she play by feeding and clothing a doll rather than roll around in the dirt like the boys get to? Is it fair to either gender to be given such different toys, forbidden to play half of what is offered when they will be competing for and working the same jobs in the future? How did toy cars, boats and planes prepare a stay at home dad? Like I questioned, is the type of play we encourage obsolete?

Men giving birth, well that's not society discouraging him from doing so. He's physically incapable. That's not really a similar comparison to whether or not women should be encourage to do well in math and science. Women are capable of doing well in those subjects but are often discouraged from trying.

And there are many examples in nature of the female gender doing quite the job of protection. "Watch out for momma bear". We have females serving in the military so it's safe to say they aren't afraid to back down.

My post was about the doubts society has been giving both genders. I've heard men say to other men that their wife is the boss. Fifty years ago, would a man have ever said that? What changed? Personalities? Or societal pressure?
Is it fair to put someone in a box like that?


----------



## captain jack

Sublime said:


> I'm not sure you're understanding my point.
> 
> You validated my argument though. You call a man who cries a "pansy". I know extremely tough men who do cry, tougher and braver than some I know who "refuse" to cry. Yet he'd be labeled a pansy by you because tears ran down his face and not by a measure of his true character.


i'd say you missed the little grinning smiley face at the end of that statement. show of emotion is generally cultural. for example, traditionally, northern europe has not been the home or source of touchy feely men. the mediteranean culture accepts more emotional display from men.



> So if it is personality that is the reason of why one gender over another gravitates towards certain tasks and mannerisms, then how do you explain such a generalized pattern when we all have individual personalities?
> 
> Yes, play is preparation for life for some species. However, society still encourages girls and boys to act differently yet many jobs traditionally held for men are now employing women. So how does encouragement to play with dolls and stay clean help a woman who is running a construction business if play is so important to preparation for life?


dispite the roles played by people in modern life, due to physical design, women are still the birth givers and child rearers by nature (and most often in society). when it comes to natural design, nature doesn't give one wit about a woman running a construction business. it only knows that evolution, since the advent of placental birth, has designated and designed females to fulfill a certain role for the survival of the species. males as well.

while play designed to fulfill that role doesn't help her to fulfill a role that might normally be filled by a man, it certainly will help her if she ever has to fulfil her naturally designed role.



> If play was indeed a way to prepare them for life, why not take away the toys and hand them a pretend bank account and hand them play bills crafted out of brightly colored construction paper? Or is the type of play we encouraged obsolete?


playing at white collar work might be fitting training for the modern human controlled environment but, in the really for real world, outside of man's protective social shield, it is useless play for training either sex to survive...much less advance the species. if the lessons of history have nothing else to tell us, one thing is certain. every civiization has reached it's summit and then man has fallen back to a more 'natural' state during which survival and eventual re-emergence of civilization has depended on mankinds naturaly designed characteristics. to think that we are immune to the same eventual fate is simple vanity.

beyond that, despite individual choice and the paths that modern civilization has afforded people the luxury to follow, we are all naturally designed to fulfill certain roles. though we learn to fill others, we can not deny our true nature. it doesn't hurt anyone to play at their traditional roles. certainy, if it did, you wouldn't have women doing traditionally male careers and you wouldn't have the present trend in stay at home dads.

that particular trend is fueled by the loss of manufacturing and other such jobs, which have been shipped to 'third world' countries. once, manufacturing, and the like, was the big money maker and office work the non-revenue generating part that a business had to tolerate. still, most heavy manufacturing and construction type work is male dominated. i know because i have spent a lifetime doing that kind of work. there are some women you will encounter but, not that many. certain, light kinds of manufacturing seem to show no gender basis; soldering PC boards, for instance. but heavy stuff, like welding and that sort of thing does.

however, despite the difficulty of and training needed for many of those jobs, they aren't the big money makers in our society. we are a white collar society, now. we don't produce. we administrate. that is where the money is. at work, where i am doing heavy, fast paced work with no time to goof off, my salary is a good bit less than the office manager who i often see doing on-line shopping at her computer when i have to go deal with her about a paperwork issue.

the harder you work the less you make and the shorter lunch breaks you get to take. if you work in a nice, climate controlled environment with the liesure to surf the net and have conversations around the water cooler and you can go out right after work without changing your clothes (much less needing to take a bath to clean off the grime, the black, and the crud), then you are going to rake in more money and get longer lunch breaks.(a point that most of us in the blue colar world have often pondered as being a bit backwards.)

anyhow, in such an environment, it encourages the woman to be the breadwinner and the man to raise the kids. but, only certain women work those kinds of jobs. there are still plenty of working class families where the guy is working on the construction site and the woman is a waitress or works at the grocery store for a lot less money. that's a different situation completely.

you can't possibly have enough play variation to prepare individuals for their adult lives in this extremely variable world of modern society. however, not only does it not hurt to train for natural social roles through play, it could be a big help, if it turns out you need to fill those roles.



> Is it fair that boys are handed toy cars, boats, planes to play with. Those are luxury items.


cars, boats, and planes are only luxury items for some. they are jobs for others. tell the men risking their lives fishing in some of the most dangerous waters of the world that their boating is luxury and see what they say. perspective. traditionally, drivers, pilots, and people who make their living on the sea have been men. playing with toys of those careers was training for future roles not playing at luxury...certainly not initially. sailboats, in the modern would, might be pleasure boats and yachts but, in the days of sail, they represented a life of hard work and dangerous jobs from which you might not return.

things today are not always equal to things up until now. now, a 'home maker' does a little house work, goes shopping with her friends (who are also stay at home moms) while the kids are at school, then she drives them around from school and to activities like a taxi driver. in past days, a 'mother' churned butter, manufactured clothing and blankets and things, made home cooked meals from scratch, often worked the fields or tended livestock. meanwhile, the husband built or mended outbuildings, repairded other things, also worked the fields or tended livestock, and traded goods for meney or other goods, as well as being responsibe for defense of the family.

much of our play does stem from an older time. however, i would argue that any society that forgets it's roots and what it learned on the way up is in grave danger on the inevitable way down.

also, judging from the obvious dysfunction in modern society, perhaps the modern way of doing things isn't so good for us, as a species. time will tell on that one.

male and female elements are important, just as is day and night. yin and yang. a world out of balance is not a good thing. look around at what we value. as i pointed out before, it would seem to me that the male role is adored far more than the female, now, and there is far less of the female in modern society. imbalance.


> And girls are given items like a toy oven, a baby changing table, etc? Cooking and cleaning, aren't those chores? Why must she play by feeding and clothing a doll rather than roll around in the dirt like the boys get to?


both rolling in the dirt and playing with dolls is found to be fun by kids, in my experience. as an adult, digging ditches and wading around in the (sometimes very cold) water and mud trying to drain flooded foundations on a new building site (a job i have never seen a woman doing) is far less pleasant than you might assume. i notice a ot of women decide to be mothers but i haven't noticed them banging down the doors of construction trailers to do the former. perspective yet again.



> Is it fair to either gender to be given such different toys, forbidden to play half of what is offered when they will be competing for and working the same jobs in the future? How did toy cars, boats and planes prepare a stay at home dad? Like I questioned, is the type of play we encourage obsolete?
> 
> Men giving birth, well that's not society discouraging him from doing so. He's physically incapable. That's not really a similar comparison to whether or not women should be encourage to do well in math and science. Women are capable of doing well in those subjects but are often discouraged from trying.


when my mom was a girl, yes, women were often discouraged from seeking an education. but this isn't the 50s. i don't know of anyone trying to keep their litte girls from getting an education and i think any claim to that is a bit of a snalligaster hunt put forth simply to try to prove a point which is not really ironclad.

we live in a society where women only groups and activities are cool but not the reverse. where it's glorious for a woman to take a traditionally male job but often unmanly for a man to take a traditionally female job-like a male nurse. if gender roles persecute anyone, i would have to say it is men. women are touted as the smart ones and their husbands impotent, incapable idiots in advertising and entertainment. beautiful women are depicted as the great, unstoppabe heros who triumph over men, where other men were defeated. i don't think women are really being fed the weak incapable pill, anymore....not by society. just the opposite.



> And there are many examples in nature of the female gender doing quite the job of protection. "Watch out for momma bear". We have females serving in the military so it's safe to say they aren't afraid to back down.


for one, bears don't form male/female/child famiy units or live in social groups, like we do. male bears kill cubs and are the biggest threat momma faces. not a good comparison to human society.

no one said women could not defend. naturally, the line of defense starts with the man but passes to the woman, if need be.

i think the creation myth of the germanic tribes might clarify my point. it's not the sexist, woman dominating myth like the middlre eastern christian creation myth. different societies with different ideas about femae roles.

after shaping the wolrd from Ymir's slain body ( Ymir was the enormous originator of the Jutnar ( frost giants equal to greek titans, sort of )), Odin, Villi (Tyr), and Ve( Heimdallr) went in exploration of the realms outside of this middle earth that they had shaped. the Vana Gods (earth Gods as compared to the Asir sky Gods) populated earth with flora and fauna.

Odin and his brothers returned, after estabishing Asgard, and realized they needed someone, an ally, to help them maintain the order they had created from the constant attack from the forces chaos.(as the christian bible puts it, they needed someone to tend to the garden of eden)

so, walking across the beach, they came apon two trees. one was an ash. the other and elm. from these trees, they formed the first man and woman, equally and of equal importance; not one coming from or lesser to the other (as it is in christianity). man was made from the ash and woman from the elm. traditionally, ash wood is used to form spears because of it's physical properties. spears; which are used to defend or provide for society. elm wood is used to make cradles because it was thought to have a spiritualy nurturing and protective quality. i don't need to tell you what crades are used for. thus, men deal with that which is outside of the social enclosure, protecting and providing for what is inside of that enclosure. women nurture and protect that which is inside the enclosure. both ensuring the survival of society. again, check out the story of Agnar and Geirrod.

this is not to say that a spear can not be made of elm or a cradle of ash; only that those woods are, naturally, best suited to those uses.


> My post was about the doubts society has been giving both genders. I've heard men say to other men that their wife is the boss. Fifty years ago, would a man have ever said that? What changed? Personalities? Or societal pressure?
> Is it fair to put someone in a box like that?


the feminization of the male. something that was pushed by feminists from the 60s on. the idea that women wanted men that, basically, acted like women and guys that didn't were sexist pigs. white men fell for it big time other races not so much. not much of that in the back community, for instance. however, whatever women may have claimed they wanted, it would prove that instictivey they wanted something else. they wanted men who act like men. every guy has seen it. the confident 'manly' jerk...totally insensitive who treats women poory...gets all the girls whie the sensitive, touchy feely, nice guy...the one women claimed to have desired...spends most of his time in the friend zone. it would seem that, whatever we think we want in our minds, we are genetically designed to want what nature has programmed us to want. to wit: women realy want a man who demonstrates qualities that show the abiity to protect and provide for a family and to not view men who take on a more femae character as mates.

sexist or just nature?

as i am always telling my students (martial arts), humans love to pretend that we are pacifists but, at the end of the day, we are natural born killers and, if you intend to fight in your (or your family's) defense, you have to tap into that. we are what we are no matter how we pretend otherwise.

i repeat the idea here, you can pretend, and even successfuly live, as if we are different than what we are but, at the end of the day, we are what we are, just the same.

countless generations evolved us into what we are. a few decades of different social conditions will not cause any real change to that.


----------



## Minnewaska

Jack, my man, where do you find the time to type? For one, I just can't read posts that long to the end. Especially, when pushing the OT boundaries. 

If this thread weren't started with a high interest sailing related issue, it would have been banned to OT a long time ago.


----------



## Bill-Rangatira

I find that women make better sailors because their instincts tell them if the boat is balanced (feels good) or not


----------



## WGEwald

white74 said:


> I find that women make better sailors because their instincts tell them if the boat is balanced (feels good) or not


I said I would not post in *herhairnet* again but I can't resist this.

Men have better balance in sailing and darts because they have testicles. Everybody knows that. Just an anatomical fact.

As for telling me to "tread lightly" the guy who said that can kiss my entire ass.


----------



## captain jack

Minnewaska said:


> Jack, my man, where do you find the time to type? For one, I just can't read posts that long to the end. Especially, when pushing the OT boundaries.
> 
> If this thread weren't started with a high interest sailing related issue, it would have been banned to OT a long time ago.


that was written around 4:00 am this morning. i don't tend to sleep a lot.

i suppose that post might have been on the edge of being off topic. however, male/female roles has come up a good deal during the course of this thread so i think it's safely within the limits.


----------



## Donna_F

WGEwald,

You've told one moderator she's snippy and another moderator to kiss your ass. You aren't playing by the rules.


----------



## RynnCP

Siamese said:


> Sailing isn't sexist, but don't pretend that the sexes aren't different.
> 
> The great majority of sailboats in a given marina are owned by men, or if they're owned by a couple (hetero), then the man is the one who decided to get the boat.
> 
> If the man gets hit by a bus, the boat will be sold. Most likely to another man.
> 
> Women aren't excluded from sailing, but the female sailboat owner is still a rarity.


My husband and I have very different sailing histories. I was the SORC racer, he was the local small boat putterer. We both vetted our boat and it was a joint decision to own her.

Sailing doesn't HAVE to be sexist, it's just that men tend to have more time for hobbies in general. For instance, most working women I know who have a day off spend it doing laundry, cleaning house, etc. Men are more likely to be out playing golf, etc. Having said that, my own husband is very good at dealing with house stuff and having a hobby too. Our house has been something of a disaster since we bought our boat, but having cushions, sails, batteries, etc, is just part of the package, and I love sailing enough to deal with it.

Every person makes his/her own choice. If a woman wants to be a sailor/boat owner, there's really nothing to stop her. I know, I was lucky to have male mentors who respected my skills and didn't look at me as 'just another girl' but you make it what you want it to be.


----------



## Minnewaska

RynnCP said:


> ....Sailing doesn't HAVE to be sexist, it's just that men tend to have more time for hobbies in general. For instance, most working women I know who have a day off spend it doing laundry, cleaning house, etc. Men are more likely to be out playing golf, etc. .......


As they say in politics, this is just rallying your base, not mainstream anymore. I can't think of too many examples of this for those under 70.

Sailing is a hobby that both my wife and I have chosen to do together. When we arrived for our cruise on Sat, I had to change the oil, replace a plumbing fitting on the washdown pump buried in the v-berth and install a new 12v TV. In the middle of it all, the bilge pump starts running continuously and I have to replace the float switch.

All the while, my wife is reading her kindle in the cockpit. Maybe sailing is sexist?

She has zero interest in learning how to do these things. I, on the other hand, know how to do laundry and clean, to use your examples. In fact, we each do our own laundry separately at home. I made dinner aboard last night too. A paella with scrod, clams, chorizo, artichokes, red pepper, string beans and tomatoes.


----------



## Sal Paradise

I find that women who do most of the housework in their marriage then tend to generalize about the rest of us. 

I do as much , or more housework and domestic duty than my wife does. My wife has never done my laundry. I'm also the primary household money earner, mechanic and builder and sailboat captain. By captain I mean slave of course. I am sure a lot of guys are like me and some are different. But I don't doubt that there are marriages where the wife does all the menial work and the husband is lazy. I'm just not in one and I tend to resent the generalization that women are doing the work because I haven't seen it.


----------



## TomMaine

This interesting thread answered the original posters question on the first page, and continues to supply the same answer;

The question was not; "Are you sexist?" 

The question was; "Is sailing sexist?"

Answer, "Affirmative"  At least if you use the current definition of the word. 

Definition of Sexism;

sex·ism
ˈsekˌsizəm/
noun
noun: sexism

prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.

synonyms:	sexual discrimination, chauvinism, gender prejudice, gender bias


----------



## RynnCP

I should point out that I was speaking from anecdotal experience. In my marriage, it's just as likely clip is doing the laundry or vacuuming or cooking (the paella sounded fabulous, btw). As far as fixing things, I'm every bit as handy as he is though we each have our own strengths. So far we have both worked on refinishing brightwork, pulling up carpet, replacing weatherstripping, cleaning and waxing the hull, replacing the striping and putting on her name, and recovering the cabin cushions.

I stand by my statement -- it doesn't have to be sexist, it is what you make it. I want to be very involved. Your mileage may vary.


----------



## captain jack

RynnCP said:


> My husband and I have very different sailing histories. I was the SORC racer, he was the local small boat putterer. We both vetted our boat and it was a joint decision to own her.
> 
> Sailing doesn't HAVE to be sexist, it's just that men tend to have more time for hobbies in general. For instance, most working women I know who have a day off spend it doing laundry, cleaning house, etc. Men are more likely to be out playing golf, etc. Having said that, my own husband is very good at dealing with house stuff and having a hobby too. Our house has been something of a disaster since we bought our boat, but having cushions, sails, batteries, etc, is just part of the package, and I love sailing enough to deal with it.
> 
> Every person makes his/her own choice. If a woman wants to be a sailor/boat owner, there's really nothing to stop her. I know, I was lucky to have male mentors who respected my skills and didn't look at me as 'just another girl' but you make it what you want it to be.


i don't usually have to use days off for household chores because i do them after work. i mow as soon as i get home from work, before dinner. dishes get done immediately. i do my laundry at night (sometimes in the wee hours when most sane humans are asleep) and sweep and stuff while the laundry is in.

that way i have my days off for the boat, unless something comes up. i prioritize. sleep is less important than sailing so it gets cut, if need be.


----------



## captain jack

Minnewaska said:


> As they say in politics, this is just rallying your base, not mainstream anymore. I can't think of too many examples of this for those under 70.
> 
> Sailing is a hobby that both my wife and I have chosen to do together. When we arrived for our cruise on Sat, I had to change the oil, replace a plumbing fitting on the washdown pump buried in the v-berth and install a new 12v TV. In the middle of it all, the bilge pump starts running continuously and I have to replace the float switch.
> 
> All the while, my wife is reading her kindle in the cockpit. Maybe sailing is sexist?
> 
> She has zero interest in learning how to do these things. I, on the other hand, know how to do laundry and clean, to use your examples. In fact, we each do our own laundry separately at home. I made dinner aboard last night too. A paella with scrod, clams, chorizo, artichokes, red pepper, string beans and tomatoes.


i haven't the slightest idea what a paella or a scrod is but, great post.:laugher


----------



## captain jack

TomMaine said:


> This interesting thread answered the original posters question on the first page, and continues to supply the same answer;
> 
> The question was not; "Are you sexist?"
> 
> The question was; "Is sailing sexist?"
> 
> Answer, "Affirmative"  At least if you use the current definition of the word.
> 
> Definition of Sexism;
> 
> sex·ism
> ˈsekˌsizəm/
> noun
> noun: sexism
> 
> prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.
> 
> synonyms:	sexual discrimination, chauvinism, gender prejudice, gender bias


ok. an official definition of sexism. good. now, explain where you have seen it in this thread.

"prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, against women, on the basis of sex."

i have certainly seen it aimed at men (specificaly negative stereotyping). but i haven't noticed any posts that have been anti-woman or aimed at stating that women have no place in sailing. i also haven't seen anyone using anti-woman stereotypes. i have read a few posts recording stories of people dealing with incidents with sexist people but, nothing at all that shows that _sailing_ (as in the activity, sport, hobby, or community) is sexist, as per the definition.

if you don't mind, could you note the ones that fit that definition; so they can be discussed. it's easy to give a general statement that such and such has been proven without siting the actual evidence in support of that statement but, it lacks real merit. using the same statement, with the same wording, anyone could easily argue that the thread continues to prove that sailing isn't sexist...and i could be supported using the evidence in the thread, too.

post number 8 gave what i would consider to be the actual answer, based on your definition.


----------



## clip68

captain jack said:


> i don't usually have to use days off for household chores because i do them after work. i mow as soon as i get home from work, before dinner. dishes get done immediately. i do my laundry at night (sometimes in the wee hours when most sane humans are asleep) and sweep and stuff while the laundry is in.
> 
> that way i have my days off for the boat, unless something comes up. i prioritize. sleep is less important than sailing so it gets cut, if need be.


Sailing before sleep! Someone who has their priorities in order.


----------



## TomMaine

captain jack said:


> ok. an official definition of sexism. good. now, explain where you have seen it in this thread.
> 
> "prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, against women, on the basis of sex."
> 
> iif you don't mind, could you note the ones that fit that definition; so they can be discussed.


You don't have to go beyond the book title in the original question. "first mate"=woman. Dated, stereotypical.

Sexism isn't an option in any part of our culture. Google sexism in the USA or similar. It's just there.

You could be the least sexist male in the world, and sexism is still here.

In the sailing world, I think we've done a better job toward eliminating sexism than say, the work place in the US(we're not equal in $/work but we're improving) or many third world countries where sexism atrocities, are rule.

I'm sexist but I've become less so as I age. I'm also a white male in the US and have not been a victim of sexism.

No, there was one time. A girl I dated(once) told me in all seriousness, "All men are a**holes..."

Silly, but a lot of sexism is just silly, and dumb.


----------



## caberg

TomMaine said:


> This interesting thread answered the original posters question on the first page, and continues to supply the same answer;
> 
> The question was not; "Are you sexist?"
> 
> The question was; "Is sailing sexist?"
> 
> Answer, "Affirmative"


Well, I think it's impossible for sailing to be sexist. "Sailing" is not a person capable of bias or prejudice.

But of course there are people who sail who are sexist. One definition of sexism is "attitudes or behavior based on traditional stereotypes of sexual roles."

Now, walk into any number of yacht clubs around the country and tell me that sexism is not alive and well. How many female "Commodores" do you see. How many men are coordinating the social gatherings?

Today, thankfully, there is a whole new generation of sailing couples that want nothing to do with the old timey yacht club make-me-want-to-puke scene. We just like to sail. Leave all that other $hit at the dock.


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## TomMaine

caberg said:


> Well, I think it's impossible for sailing to be sexist. "Sailing" is not a person capable of bias or prejudice.
> 
> Today, thankfully, there is a whole new generation of sailing couples that want nothing to do with the old timey yacht club make-me-want-to-puke scene. We just like to sail. Leave all that other $hit at the dock.


I agree with that. But it's difficult to take sailors out of sailing.

And I couldn't agree more that a whole new generation(not always- age related), that wants' nothing to do with the 'good old boy' attitude in yacht clubs or just about anywhere in society.

These days, I know many more female sailors and sailboat owners than I did a couple decades ago.

And I know many couples that own a sailboat and sail together, or as families, where she brought them into sailing.

And in the sailing/marine industry, I know more females working as captains in all scale of boats. Racing, the gender gap is closing a bit too. It's a good time.

I have a daughter 23, and a son 22, both are fine sailors and will no doubt be involved in sailing for their entire lives. If they grow families, they too will be involved.

I don't see a lot of difference between the two of them-where it relates to sailing.


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## Multihullgirl

Those of you who say you don't "see" sexism? Here's something for you:

Next Time Someone Says Women Aren't Victims Of Harassment, Show Them This.


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## TropicCat

Of course there is sexism between the sexes. My lady demands it. She expects traditional roles for the sexes and for her doors to be opened for her and her guy to drive the car. I have attempted to shine some light into her world view, but with very limited success.


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## captain jack

TomMaine said:


> You don't have to go beyond the book title in the original question. "first mate"=woman. Dated, stereotypical.
> 
> Sexism isn't an option in any part of our culture. Google sexism in the USA or similar. It's just there.
> 
> You could be the least sexist male in the world, and sexism is still here.
> 
> In the sailing world, I think we've done a better job toward eliminating sexism than say, the work place in the US(we're not equal in $/work


most statistics quoting male/female income inequality do not do anything but quote the averages without regard to the types of jobs. women tend to go into careers and train for careers that make less money. also, there is time missing for work, to have or tend to children, which figures into yearly incomes and that is also not factored in. women making tons less than men in the same jobs is largely a thing of the past ( a point my girlfriend has made, herself, a few times in discussions about this thread)

but you are right, things are changing. more men do blue collar work than women. blue collar jobs used to be the big money jobs. now, white collar is where the money is and blue collar is not. secretaries and women doing data entry in the office make more than the men working and sweating their butts off doing the physical production. not sure i see that as an improvement, though. at least, not if you ask the guys trying to raise families on bue collar wages.



> but we're improving) or many third world countries where sexism atrocities, are rule.
> 
> I'm sexist but I've become less so as I age. I'm also a white male in the US and have not been a victim of sexism.
> 
> No, there was one time. A girl I dated(once) told me in all seriousness, "All men are a**holes..."
> 
> Silly, but a lot of sexism is just silly, and dumb.


that's the point exactly. women are very sexist. i have been wolf whistled at, hit on, flirted with...all by women i did not approach. if i was a woman, i'd call that sexual harrassment. maybe you don't have that kind of experience with women. sorry about your bad luck.

anyhow, i'm a guy so i am flattered by the attention. which is a logical response, in my opinion. but, you bring up an even more common type of female sexism against men. degredation. in fact, it's so common, and accepted, you actually don't seem to realize how much you are exposed to it. it's in their stand up routines. it's in tv ads and sitcoms and movies. women do it, in person, very frequently. but no one calls them on it. i guess it's only sexist if men do it. women are exempt.


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## captain jack

Multihullgirl said:


> Those of you who say you don't "see" sexism? Here's something for you:
> 
> Next Time Someone Says Women Aren't Victims Of Harassment, Show Them This.


in response, that is an editorial cartoon. it is an expression of opinion and not actualy proof of anything. i could just as easily draw a cartoon that says the exact opposite.

however, to address some of the points the cartoon brought up:

----abortion laws are not sexist in nature. they are a violation of people's religious freedoms and are based on christianity. rather than being sexist, they are just another example of how christians have been pushing their religion on everyone else for centuries.

----it truly is hypocritical for someone to dress in sexually provocative ways and expect to not be viewed in sexual ways. if you don't want me to look at your boobs( a very normal human reaction that has been a key element in making sure all sexual species reproduce), don't flash tnem at me. if i were to walk around with my equipment hanging out, i would be thought an idiot if i got offended at women looking at it. seriously. i guess all the male strippers should protest all the sexist women staring and wolf calling and shouting at them. just terribly sexist behavior.

---really? the cartoon makes it look as if women are just being groped 24/7 and having obscenities yelled at them from all sides constantly. you think that might be an exageration? i've had chicks squeeze my butt ( and even one run her hands 'accidentally' over my crotch) and i think every guy gets whistled at, flirted with, or had sexual comments made to them. i've dated some really hot chicks, over the years and they never complained of anything nearly like that cartoon depicts.

-----and, as far as how men speak of women amongst themselves:

A) as long as they aren't saying it to you, it's not your business what they say or think and

B) women do the same thing...often very vocally and openly. i can't tell you how many times i have heard women talking amongst themselves, in public, loudly and openly in a way that was treating men as sex objects. happens all the time. it happens at work. it happens at bars. i hear it after movies containing actors that women call 'studs'...a sexist term that views men in only a sexual manner. i can see it, now: "how terrilble. i can't stand it anymore. you only see me as big arms and a warshboard stomach. stop checking out my crotch ( i have had that happen a lot, too). my eyes are up here, lady!" no i can't. what guy would actuallty get upset that a woman checks him out or finds him sexy?

-----the reason a guy apologizes to another guy for hitting on his girlfriend or wife and not the woman has nothing to do with men viewing women as property. there is nothing wrong with men or women trying to get dates with people. that is natural and it's how relationships start and species continue. why would a guy apologize to a woman for that? however, if you realize you have been hitting on a woman that has a partner already, you apologize to him because you were trying to get involved with the person he is in a relationsip with. can you actually tell me that, if your woman friend were to realize she had been hitting on your boyfriend/husband, she would not apologize to you for the transgeression?

----as far as a guy being whipped; a guy who can't stand up and be himself, totally dominated by his girlfriend, is being submissive and weak. no one is saying a guy has to dominate. not at all. but, some guys just get bullied by their girlfriend/wife. they aren't man enough to be respected as a person by their partner. so, you say they sare whipped because they act weak and timid like a whipped dog. it's not sexist agsainst women at all. if anything, it's sexist against men because we expect strength, confidence, and courage from men and view them as less than a man if they act weak, timid, and cowardly.

---and, finally, i don't know about any of the other guys on here, but i claimed to be taken, once, to get a very unattractive woman to stop hounding me. i was definately not interested and she wouldn't take the hint and, rather than be mean and say 'i find you unattractive and sexually repulsive', it was just easier to say i had a girlfriend. that doesn't always work on women, though. a lot of my past girlfriends' friends have hit on my while i was with their friend. guys, though, usually respect other guys enough to back off. (in the pursuit of total honesty, i wil admit having stolen or 'borrowed' a number of other guy's girlfriends, in the past, but none that were attached to any of my friends. i never said i was a saint)

anyhow, that cartoon isn't so much evidence as it is propoganda in support of an opinion.

it's also shows just how meaningless the words 'sexism' and 'sexual harrassment' really have become. basically, if a guy you are not interested in compliments you or hits on (or even just asks you out) you it's sexual harrassment and he is sexist. but, if a guy you are interested in does those things, it's just fine. it really shows how one sided the whole thing is. it's ok for women to treat men as sex objects (in fact, it's empowering to women. they cheer each other for it) but it's wrong to do so. how can those words have any real meaning if you can apply them in any way that suits you or if they apply to only one gender? they can't.

and, am i saying there aren't guys who are offensive or guys that have a lesser opiniojn of women? no. i'm not. there are buttholes in every crowd. however, there are a lot of women who act and think in the same ways as those guys. in fact, it's more common and totally socially accepted for women to do those things.


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## TomMaine

Multihullgirl said:


> Those of you who say you don't "see" sexism? Here's something for you:
> 
> [/url]


I enjoyed this one; At a renovation project in a Manhattan high rise, the well to do client asked the project manager," Can we get pizza delivered on friday's, for all the guys?" A generous offer for the more than 30 on site construction people.

Then the client notices the project managers assistant is a young female. "Oh, girls don't like pizza!", he says with a smile. Thinking quickly, he adds, "Can we have shoes delivered to the girls?"

My daughter and I(she is the project managers assistant) had quite a laugh(and lots of groans!), as she told me this last week. She likes the client and went last friday for the pizza(she loves pizza).

I'm sure the client doesn't see sexism around him.


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## Minnewaska

I don't know any woman that don't like pizza. I know many that adore shoes beyond my comprehension. I don't insist on either.

What does this have to do with women sailors?

I have faith in humanity, as is I just finished a three week cruise and didn't come upon any female sailors that had a chip on their shoulder anything like that of this thread. Everyone was happy.


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## captain jack

TomMaine said:


> You don't have to go beyond the book title in the original question. "first mate"=woman. Dated, stereotypical.


i think this demonstrates a point about this thread. i think that everyone is totaly focused on the title but, i seriously have my doubts that very many actually read the review of the book linked to in the original post.

the writer of the review also made this big over blown issue about the title. but, their review of the actual book tells a different story as can be seen in this quote from the review:

"That breezy writing style is subversive- without directly spelling it out, *First Mate Smith makes it clear who really runs a boat... which maybe why a First Mate is often more correctly known as The Admiral*

If you've just bought a boat or are considering a boat purchase, this is a good place for new boaters of both sexes to start.

Just get past the cover."

i highlighted one section of the review because it seems to totally negate any sexism some people might read in the title. in fact, i might go a bit farther and say that that statement shows that THE review was actually a little sexist...against men.

on an ironic point, the review, which was a big rant about sexism, pointed out calling the woman 'the admiral' as a positive thing when some posters, here, tried to say it was a sexist name that was really poking fun at women. i guess the folks out looking to find isms everywhere forgot to compair notes about what constitutes an ism.

it sould also be noted that a woman, not a man, is the author of the book. also, it's subtitle indicates it as a book intended for, or at least aimed at, women.

so many posters have aimed their guns at how sexist male sailors are but, this isn't a book written by a man. in fact, i can't think of one sailing book that is written by a man (that i have ever seen) that is sexist in title or content, in any way...and i have a lot of old sailing books. when i first taught myself to sail (through reading books...no internet...and putting what i read into practice), i bought used books because of cost and a lot of them were written in the 60s and 70s. i was given one new book as a gift.

so, even back then, male sailors were not writing sexist sailing books. it took a woman to write the book (with a supposedly sexist title) that started this entire thread off.

it should be noted, if you read the review you will discover that it's author has a huge case of chip on shoulder. the first half of the review is a rant at how sexist sailing is; all of boating actually. the title really set the author of the review off... only to end up giving it a very good and positive review because, not only was there nothing sexist about the book but, it was a good book.

the trouble with walking around with a chip on your shoulder is that you take offense at just about everything even if there is nothing offensive intended or implied.


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## TomMaine

Minnewaska said:


> I don't know any woman that don't like pizza. I know many that adore shoes beyond my comprehension. I don't insist on either.
> 
> What does this have to do with women sailors?


I would bet they find the above scenario, at least, annoying? 
I haven't seen anyone in this thread with a chip on their shoulder.

The good news is, for sexism in general, for me it shows the downturn is there in a generational sense.

Like equal pay for equal work, sexism is still a part of society(documented), but, gender disparity is on it's way out.


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## TomMaine

captain jack said:


> i think this demonstrates a point about this thread. i think that everyone is totaly focused on the title but, i seriously have my doubts that very many actually read the review of the book linked to in the original post.
> 
> the writer of the review also made this big over blown issue about the title. but, their review of the actual book tells a different story as can be seen in this quote from the review:
> 
> "That breezy writing style is subversive- without directly spelling it out, *First Mate Smith makes it clear who really runs a boat... which maybe why a First Mate is often more correctly known as The Admiral*
> 
> If you've just bought a boat or are considering a boat purchase, this is a good place for new boaters of both sexes to start.
> 
> Just get past the cover."
> 
> i highlighted one section of the review because it seems to totally negate any sexism some people might read in the title. in fact, i might go a bit farther and say that that statement shows that THE review was actually a little sexist...against men.
> 
> on an ironic point, the review, which was a big rant about sexism, pointed out calling the woman 'the admiral' as a positive thing when some posters, here, tried to say it was a sexist name that was really poking fun at women. i guess the folks out looking to find isms everywhere forgot to compair notes about what constitutes an ism.
> 
> it sould also be noted that a woman, not a man, is the author of the book. also, it's subtitle indicates it as a book intended for, or at least aimed at, women.
> 
> so many posters have aimed their guns at how sexist male sailors are but, this isn't a book written by a man. in fact, i can't think of one sailing book that is written by a man (that i have ever seen) that is sexist in title or content, in any way...and i have a lot of old sailing books. when i first taught myself to sail (through reading books...no internet...and putting what i read into practice), i bought used books because of cost and a lot of them were written in the 60s and 70s. i was given one new book as a gift.
> 
> so, even back then, male sailors were not writing sexist sailing books. it took a woman to write the book (with a supposedly sexist title) that started this entire thread off.
> 
> it should be noted, if you read the review you will discover that it's author has a huge case of chip on shoulder. the first half of the review is a rant at how sexist sailing is; all of boating actually. the title really set the author of the review off... only to end up giving it a very good and positive review because, not only was there nothing sexist about the book but, it was a good book.
> 
> the trouble with walking around with a chip on your shoulder is that you take offense at just about everything even if there is nothing offensive intended or implied.


Jack, no offense but I only have time to skim the long posts.  I get the jist though, that sexism doesn't exist for you. I'm ok with that.


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## WindchaserPY23

Having just come back from a long weekend cruise on the high seas (Lake Superior), I can say only that while the boat was always a dream of mine, my wife fell in love with cruising and we work as a well oiled team. Only the lack of experience gives me the edge on sailing skills but she is a quick learner. 
If more women got involved earlier in sailing then the ownership ratio could be more even. A quick mental survey of the people we've run into cruising and at the marina does have more men buying boats but most couples in the boomer class tend to have both referring to the vessel as "our" boat. 

Capt'n Ed
S/V Talisman


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## captain jack

has anyone checked out the latest issue of good old boat? there is a story, titled "cruising memories generation to generation", about family carrying on the tradition of sailing that really shows just how sexist sailing really is.


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## titustiger27

captain jack said:


> has anyone checked out the latest issue of good old boat? there is a story, titled "cruising memories generation to generation", about family carrying on the tradition of sailing that really shows just how sexist sailing really is.


Just went to the site, if you fill out a form you can get a review copy

Good Old Boat - Welcome to Good Old Boat Magazine

the copy isn't this issue, but it is a way to consider the magazine


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## NoQuarter79

My straight forward answer would be "yes" but I don't think it's is sailing exactly that is sexist. Any field where one gender is the majority over the other is most likely going to have sexism embroidered into that. I had this discussion on another sailing board, despite the original thread not really being about gender. When my fiance and I were on as crew, the skipper had my fiance doing all the "hard stuff" while I felt like I sat there and assisted the men. Obviously you will choose whoever is best suited for the job, and I agree that most men have more upper body strength than most women. But that being said, that does not mean it is necessary to snuff women out of things, because women have fortes that men don't. 

If we could all learn to benefit from the opposite sexes' strengths, and combine them as opposed to comparing them, sexism wouldn't be as big of a deal, not only in sailing, but in the rest of the world.


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## paradiselostparrot

Siamese said:


> Sailing isn't sexist, but don't pretend that the sexes aren't different.
> 
> The great majority of sailboats in a given marina are owned by men, or if they're owned by a couple (hetero), then the man is the one who decided to get the boat.
> 
> If the man gets hit by a bus, the boat will be sold. Most likely to another man.
> 
> Women aren't excluded from sailing, but the female sailboat owner is still a rarity.







Husband died and got 35 footer. nice lady


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## wmartin78758

NoQuarter79 said:


> My straight forward answer would be "yes" but I don't think it's is sailing exactly that is sexist. Any field where one gender is the majority over the other is most likely going to have sexism embroidered into that. I had this discussion on another sailing board, despite the original thread not really being about gender. When my fiance and I were on as crew, the skipper had my fiance doing all the "hard stuff" while I felt like I sat there and assisted the men. Obviously you will choose whoever is best suited for the job, and I agree that most men have more upper body strength than most women. But that being said, that does not mean it is necessary to snuff women out of things, because women have fortes that men don't.
> 
> If we could all learn to benefit from the opposite sexes' strengths, and combine them as opposed to comparing them, sexism wouldn't be as big of a deal, not only in sailing, but in the rest of the world.


That last paragraph was direct and to the point. The ability to benefit from ALL of the crew must be a major goal. The synergy of a crew can so easily provide for a wondrous experience. A good crew can be so much stronger, so much more able than just the sum of the individual strengths.


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