# transatlantic in a catalina 27?



## thatirishguy (Feb 15, 2011)

would a catalina 27 make transatlantic crossing with 2 to 3 people? Is there mods i would have to do? its a bone stock C27! thanks


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## kd3pc (Oct 19, 2006)

it would, more than likely. However, without proper gear, crew, planning and such - it may not turn out like you hoped.

I would opt for a more "blue water" boat..search here for ideas on that, there are plenty


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

Hey maybe it would.

But you wouldn't find me aboard 

It would be far from the ideal boat......kinda like doing the Dakar rally in a bright pink Smart car.
You could argue all the reaons why it _could_ make it, and it might make it there and back 5 times but however it was not designed/built to accomplish such a feat. It would only take the wrong weather to bring about your undoing in such a vessel.

With mods you could improve your odds, but it would still be far.....very far from the ideal vessel.

The easiest way to cross the Atlantic for beginners with improved safety and support would be to join the ARC. However I doubt you would be able to join the ARC in a Catalina 27. That you can't join the ARC in a Catalina 27 speaks volumes as to why you probably shouldn't cross the Atlantic in a Catalina 27.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

IIRC, one of the books on small cruising boats, possibly John Vigor's 20 Small Sailboats to Take You Anywhere, has a long section on beefing up and retrofitting a small coastal cruiser--IIRC, a Catalina 27--to make it seaworthy for such a passage. 

It discusses the modifications you'd need to make to such a boat at fair length. Some of the modifications would include adding a bridgedeck to the cockpit, to help increase the seaworthiness and reduce the chances of the boat downflooding and sinking if it gets pooped. Another major upgrade is adding proper backing plates to all the deck fittings, most of which were not backed, but were through-bolted with fender washers IIRC. Adding seacocks to all the through-hulls was another issue, as some were not equipped with them from the factory. 

IIRC, a lot of the information in John's book are based on the work done by Patrick Childress, who circumnavigated in a modified Catalina 27. IIRC, Childress took three months, working full-time, to retrofit/upgrade/modify his boat for his voyage. 

That said, I doubt that a Catalina 27 is going to be big enough for more than a single person for a transAtlantic passage, as it doesn't have enough space, stowage or load carrying capacity to handle two people considering the stores you'd need. A rough rule of thumb is that you need ONE GALLON of water per person per day at a minimum. A Catalina 27 will be hard pressed to make 100 miles per day... and the Atlantic crossing is roughly 3000 miles, or 30 days. 

For one person that means you will need at least 30 gallons of water aboard. Generally, you'd want at least a 50% safety margin on water, which brings it up to 45 gallons. Ninety gallons for two people. A gallon of water weighs 8.35 lbs., so you need 765 lbs. (rounding it up to 8.5 lbs/gallon to account for the jerry cans) of water for two people. That doesn't include food, clothing, electronics, fuel for the boat, cooking fuel, or any other equipment. Figure that two adults will weigh in at 300 lbs. or so. 

With two people, you could probably do it... but it wouldn't be a comfortable trip, since you'd be living in each other's pockets. 

I would ask what sailing experience you have? It would be rather foolish to try and do this unless you are a fairly experienced sailor, with a wide breadth of boat maintenance and repair skills. The fact that you're asking the question in your OP pretty much says that you don't have the knowledge, skills or experience to try such a voyage yet.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Sailing a Catalina 27 across the Atlantic is like sleeping with your wife's best friend who keeps flirting with you. 

Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. If you are lucky, you might get away with it, but if you're not, you're not just screwed, you're f**ked.


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

Oh and hey he forgot to say it because you are new here you should read the link in SD's signature


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## kwaltersmi (Aug 14, 2006)

Sure it can be done. Lesser boats have made it. The real questions are:

Should you do it in a C27?

Is the crew up to the task?

And SD is right, Patrick Childress made it all the way around the globe on his C27: http://www.catalinayachts.com/pdf/halfoffame/ACFB0.pdf

Try a Google search for "Catalina 27 circumnavigation" for lots of opinions and tips for preparing the C27 for bluewater.


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## LauderBoy (Mar 15, 2010)

Well on the water front. You could use a water maker, so you'd effectively be converting petro to water and be able to take a lot less petro. But if you water maker or generator went on the fritz you'd be left using a backup hand water maker which is pretty limited.

But I think 2-3 people crammed into a 27ft boat for 30 days sounds less than wonderful.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

You'd need more petro but less water. :laugher What you said would leave him short of both.


LauderBoy said:


> Well on the water front. You could use a water maker, so you'd effectively be converting petro to water and* be able to take a lot less petro.* But if you water maker or generator went on the fritz you'd be left using a backup hand water maker which is pretty limited.
> 
> But I think 2-3 people crammed into a 27ft boat for 30 days sounds less than wonderful.


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## QuickMick (Oct 15, 2009)

all of the safety/modification/logistical issues aside--there are always going to be 'maybes,' a lot would depend on the size of the 'maybe' you can accept--my 30' is comfortable for one and the occasional guest, but i doubt i could stand have 1-2+ people on her for more than a week unless it was tuesday wells or some such.

actually, i could probably handle one person for extended periods of time, if i really liked them. heck, i mutter to myself enough as it is...


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

I own a C27. My particular boat is definitely NOT one I'd take out into the open ocean without doing a lot of work to her. But she's fine for lake/bay/close-in cruising around.

I have little doubt the C27 (well prepped) could take you anywhere if you were careful with the weather. As has been pointed out above - they've done it just fine. And I also personally think it's fine for 2-3 people in a passage situation. It's cozy - but has enough room.

So, as always, it's not really the boat you have to worry about as much as it is you and your crew. Can you do it?

I couldn't at this point. No way.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Having owned a C-27 and having my a$$ handed to me in the middle of Chesapeake Bay during moderate storms, I would unequivocally say NO! The boat is not an ocean going vessel by any stretch of the imagination. The boat, and crew might make it across the pond, but only if conditions are ideal. Ideal conditions NEVER exist in the real world.

Gary


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## thatirishguy (Feb 15, 2011)

sorry guys i did not read SD's signature but i just did so i will try not to make a a** of myself  so ok i have a C27 but i could sell it and buy something else! are the boats in John Vigor's 20 Small Sailboats to Take You Anywhere a credible source? i'm looking for something around the 10,000 range if i do sell it. i say 10,000 because i'm thinking i will need about another 10,000 to outfit it to take on the task! also if need be i might be able to pull another 5,000 to fix it up or buy something in better shape!


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## thatirishguy (Feb 15, 2011)

also i have about 4 years sailing exp. i have faith in me being able to do it but the crew have about a day before we go they will have about 9 months. so it would have to be something i could handle on my own


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## MikeinLA (Jul 25, 2006)

Where's that popcorn smiley when you really really need it?

Mike


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I'd point out that the Catalina 27 is one of the 20 boats in John's book



thatirishguy said:


> sorry guys i did not read SD's signature but i just did so i will try not to make a a** of myself  so ok i have a C27 but i could sell it and buy something else! are the boats in John Vigor's 20 Small Sailboats to Take You Anywhere a credible source? i'm looking for something around the 10,000 range if i do sell it. i say 10,000 because i'm thinking i will need about another 10,000 to outfit it to take on the task! also if need be i might be able to pull another 5,000 to fix it up or buy something in better shape!


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## omaho5 (Jun 5, 2008)

You could do this in the worst boat possible and make it. Also, you could sail the best possible boat and fail.
There is always the element of luck.
I would want the best possible elements in my favor. A cat 27 is not a favorable boat.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Yes, luck is a factor but I believe that you really create your own luck to a great extent. 

I think a Catalina 27 has to be modified extensively to consider the trip.

Bulkheads are not glassed in - constant wracking in seas will loosen their fastenings.
As posted above all deck fittings need solid backing plates.
The main hatch amd companionway are way too large. a proper companionway has parallel sides and there is a proper bridgedeck. The sliding hatch is not large. See below. The second pic is what you want for offshore use.

Can the design of the hull and rig do this - yes, in the right hands.


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## sailjunkie (Nov 4, 2009)

LauderBoy said:


> But I think 2-3 people crammed into a 27ft boat for 30 days sounds less than wonderful.


Well said. We sailed C27's in our sailing co-op, from 1996 to 2009 when we bought our own boat. If you have the wrong 2-3 people, a weekend can seem like an eternity. Using SD's estimate of 30 days? You may not be friends by the end of the voyage! :laugher :laugher :laugher

I'd like to thank SD and some of the others for identifying who did the C27 circumnavigation. However, at the end of the day, just because crossing the Atlantic in a C27 is possible doesn't mean that it is a good idea.


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## CrazyRu (May 10, 2007)

if you search the web, you will find the list of modifications around the world Catalina 27 had. The owner basically rebuilt the boat from inside out, including reinforcements, backing plates, new companionway, etc.

I sailed Catalina 27 in ocean for a few days, and it is most definitely not ocean going vessel.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Here's a worldwide search of boats under $10K... Contrast and compare and some of these will appear obviously better candidates, assuming they've been kept in good condition.. or at least have 'good bones'.

(Sail) Boats For Sale


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## SailingWebGuy (May 5, 2010)

CrazyRu said:


> I sailed Catalina 27 in ocean for a few days, and it is most definitely not ocean going vessel.


Hey! Just curious... What about the boat, compared to others, did you not consider ocean going?


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## LakeSuperiorGeezer (Oct 8, 2010)

John Vigor also states that the original spreader sockets may be cast aluminum and crack. Some early boats had pipe nipples glassed into the hull for through hull fittings. The standing rigging needs to be one size larger. Also need self steering gear. Avoid shoal-draft keels and inboard engines. The tall-rig, aft-galley, deep keel is preferred. And, keep the boat light.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Avoid inboard engines?


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

MikeinLA said:


> Where's that popcorn smiley when you really really need it?
> 
> Mike


Yeah, forget about Trans-Atlantic, how about the Northwest Passage, instead?

It's the new ICW, or so I hear...


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## captbillc (Jul 31, 2008)

LakeSuperiorGeezer==avoid inboard engines??? i wouldn't go across the atlantic with an outboard engine. what is your reason for that advice ?


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Northwest Passage?? The Catalina 27 is not an offshore boat and most certainly not an icebreaker.


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## LakeSuperiorGeezer (Oct 8, 2010)

*Why Outboard?*



captbillc said:


> LakeSuperiorGeezer==avoid inboard engines??? i wouldn't go across the atlantic with an outboard engine. what is your reason for that advice ?


John Vigor states that half the Catalina 27s are fitted with inboard engines, but when the deck and cockpit are bolted on after engine installation it is almost impossible to service and therefore is neglected. Also, an outboard will free up a lot of stowage space. There is an outboard well, but John recommends mounting a 9.9 horsepower (or as low as 5 horsepower for use when not enough wind to sail) on the transom. An outboard propeller can also be raised out of the water and the boat speed will increase, unlike the inboard; the 5 horsepower outboard can be also be used on an inflatable dinghy (would need to swap propellers, but that is easily done).


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## CrazyRu (May 10, 2007)

SailingWebGuy said:


> Hey! Just curious... What about the boat, compared to others, did you not consider ocean going?


Narrow, almost non existent side decks. It is just plainly dangerous to walk on a boat.
Twisty. In any sea the boat is hard to steer, it is tiring thing to do. It is just bobbing around, not precise. This actually surprised me since so much said about good sailing ability of C27. I understand it is small boat, however handling was not precise and direct as I'd expect from sort of "performance " boat. It wasn't "running on rails" either. Loose, in one word.
With wind building up to around 22-25 knots the boat become less and less 
manageable. I had a feeling that the boat has a limit, and limit was near.

Companionway is an obvious thing.

On another side I was surprised by sturdiness of the built. Boat looked and felt solid (it was early 70-s boat)
I liked interior too. Layout, I mean, it is quite functional for two.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

With an outboard a Catalina 27 is not as suitable for offshore in my and others' opinions. I have 2 neighbors with Cat 27's. One with a diesel and it is a solid coastal cruiser, no cutout in the transom, no volatile fuel to mess with and store, and almost twice the miles/gallon as with an outboard as diesels are more efficient. I can't imagine either leaving an outboard mounted on the transom cutout or fighting with removal/replacement in any but calm water. If it is removed you also have to store it safely somewhere. In any sloppy sea the outboard is not efficient, the prop leaving the water some of the time. The other neighbor suffers with the outboard and its issues. For daysailing it works, but not for offshore. 

There are circumstances when an engine can be needed NOW, not after you remove it from storage and install it.


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## LakeSuperiorGeezer (Oct 8, 2010)

*John Vigor and smackdaddy agree*



smackdaddy said:


> I own a C27. My particular boat is definitely NOT one I'd take out into the open ocean without doing a lot of work to her. But she's fine for lake/bay/close-in cruising around.
> 
> I have little doubt the C27 (well prepped) could take you anywhere if you were careful with the weather. As has been pointed out above - they've done it just fine. And I also personally think it's fine for 2-3 people in a passage situation. It's cozy - but has enough room.
> 
> ...


From "Twenty Small Sailboats to Take You Anywhere" page 42 of the conclusion for the Catalina 27: "We live in an age when it is both fashionably and legally advisable to warn people about the many ways in which they can harm or kill themselves. One is forced to wonder how people ever managed to survive before this fashion was all the rage, how the human population of the world ever manage to grow to the record level it is at today.

So while it is correct to say that going to sea in a Catalina 27 can be harmful to your health, one always harbors the hope that anyone imbued with the human spirit of adventure and the need to explore will deem the risks necessary, even invigorating.

Of course you should not go to sea in a 27 if you're an absolute beginner with no knowledge of sailing or navigation. But if you're a reasonably experienced sailor with a good deal of common sense, and are prepared to work to get the boat right, and study to make sure you're in the right places at the right seasons, there is no practical reason why you shouldn't sail an old Catalina 27 around the world, others have before you. And a whole lot of us would cheer you on."

I thought Vigor's conclusion needed to be said about the Catalina 27. By the way, Vigor considered the Cal 20 a better blue water boat than the 27 with less than half the displacement and at an even 20 feet in length.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Narrow side decks are common on many boats, mine included (CS27). Leading all lines aft is one solution as well as jacklines for needed trips forward. I don't think the handling should be an issue - reefed for the conditions there should not be any more issues than with other well designed small boats. Of course you will not make much headway to windward in a gale but most small boats won't anyway - wait it out hove-to or bear off. 
There are 2 problems with the companionway - the obvious letting water in, but that big an opening weakens the cabin top structure as well. The bulkheads should be glassed to the hull all around, not attached to a liner with screws. The basic structure is fine for the boat's design purpose, but the constant wracking from motion at sea will show its weakness over a short time. A month at sea is more wear and tear than several years daysailing in calm waters.
The layout is workable.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

"prepared to work to get the boat right"

That is really the issue - how much work do you want to do to a Catalina 27? In my opinion it will require a lot.


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## LakeSuperiorGeezer (Oct 8, 2010)

*Better Boats than Catalina 27*



mitiempo said:


> "prepared to work to get the boat right"
> 
> That is really the issue - how much work do you want to do to a Catalina 27? In my opinion it will require a lot.


Patrick Childress, who sailed his Catalina 27 around the world in the 1980s, spend three months full time to prepare her. Seems like a lot of time and money to me, especially in today's market. Start near the top of the list for the "Twenty Small Sailboats to Take You Anywhere". The following in the same approximate size from that book, which rate higher than the Catalina 27 in descending order are the Albin Vega 27, Contessa/J.J. Taylor 26, Pearson Triton 28, Cape Dory 25D, and the Bristol 27.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

I agree. at a certain point, depending how much structural work is required, you are better off to start with a more suitable boat. The other items like running lines aft will probably apply to any boat unless it has already been done.


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## LakeSuperiorGeezer (Oct 8, 2010)

Is this off topic?  Darwin Awards Web Site: A Little Dinghy


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

And a lot stupid.


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

Question is, can a _15 year old girl_ circumnavigate solo in a C 27...

Smackdaddy? Thoughts?...:laugher


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## CrazyRu (May 10, 2007)

does anybody want to donate a girl? I'll buy a boat.


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## norsearayder (Dec 19, 2006)

on one of the c27s that went around all the capt did was upgrade the rig 1 size and added 300 lbs of ballest to the bilge. temp 18 deg,the sea ice is in


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## thatirishguy (Feb 15, 2011)

thanks for all the info guys! my order for Twenty Small Sailboats to Take You Anywhere should be in soon. so i'm going to give it a good read and see where to go from there. any more advice would be grate and I will keep you all updated as to what I end up doing! also if anybody has any more suggestions on books i should pick up all is welcome Thanks


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## HDChopper (Oct 17, 2010)

Many good books in here ..... http://www.sailnet.com/forums/general-discussion-sailing-related/18184-recommended-reading.html


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## thatirishguy (Feb 15, 2011)

thanks HDChopper. That was just what i was looking for. i see my paycheck gone from ordering books already


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## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

I say go for it!


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

thatirishguy said:


> thanks for all the info guys! my order for Twenty Small Sailboats to Take You Anywhere should be in soon. so i'm going to give it a good read and see where to go from there. any more advice would be grate and I will keep you all updated as to what I end up doing! also if anybody has any more suggestions on books i should pick up all is welcome Thanks


You asked earlier about which boat would work for that and your $$ of 10k or so. My first choice would be the Albin Vega 27, which has a proven track record for long passages, fits your money requirements, and has a loyal following. Trick may be finding one in decent shape that someone will let go of.

Brian


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Also, I would check out a thread here called The Philosophies of Cruising in our cruising section.


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