# Looked at a Valiant 40 Today



## montenido (May 14, 2008)

Hi all,
I looked at a Valiant 40 today that was located near me (Ventura, CA). Wow, what a great looking boat for cruising! At the risk of heavy flaming, I will admit that my current boat is a Catalina 36, and that I am planning on sailing her to Mexico and the Sea of Cortez. My dilema is that I might want to make the Pacific puddle jump after that. I know the C36 is not considered a "Bluewater" vessel, which is why I thought I would take a look at one that is.

This one is old (1976) which is good from a blister standpoint - not one of the bad years. It has lots of cruising gear including a full suite of sails, storm and otherwise. Watermaker, vane, SSB, weather fax, etc., and is in pretty good shape. All the standing rigging is bullet-proof and oversized. So the general ballpark cost of outfitting a boat that I have heard here (25-30% of purchase price) should be much less. The boat is listed for $99K. If I was actually going to put in a bid, I would go somewhere around $70. 

Now here is where I could use some advice. My current boat meets the first part of my future cruising plans, Mexico and the Sea of Cortez, which will be in about 1 1/2 years. Not so if I continue on with the puddle jump. Should I try to sell my boat now and get the boat that I will eventually need, or stick with my current boat and do Mexico to see if in fact I want to venture further? If I keep my boat, I will be putting some time and $ into her to get her ready for the trip. This same money could go towards getting the "Bluewater" boat ready also.

Opinions? 

Thanks in advance, Bill


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## youmeandthed (Jan 19, 2012)

It could take a while to sell your old boat, or you will have to drastically reduce the asking price.

My advice is at no point own two boats. If that is the case you will never get to go.

Other than that it's all about time and money. I wouldn't try to sell the Catalina in Mexico, you will probably get less for it down there.

good luck


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## erps (Aug 2, 2006)

> If I keep my boat, I will be putting some time and $ into her to get her ready for the trip. This same money could go towards getting the "Bluewater" boat ready also.


I personally don't have the resources to do it twice, so I would try and do it only once. We went through the same decision making process a few years back when we were trying to decide whether to keep the Catalina 34 we had for local cruising, or get the next boat a little earlier than we needed to. Upside, a bigger better boat to enjoy sooner. Downside, bigger expense for insurance, moorage and maintenance over a longer period of time. Wish I had a goose that laid golden eggs.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Yeah, if you're quite certain that the second phase of your cruising is going to happen it would make more sense to get THAT boat now.

We've had a couple of friends buy mid 70s Valiant in the past few years.. no one paid over $80K.. one of them was a 'blister boat'. I was sorry to see that that didn't just mean underwater blisters.. the cabinsides look just awful in the setting sun - bad case of pimples.


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## night0wl (Mar 20, 2006)

Wouldn't underestimate the costs of restoring a 1970s era valiant. By now, that engine is probably nearing 40 years of age. Think about a car or truck engine that old!! Repower on a yacht like that is probably easy $15k. 

Rigging may look good, but I've seen more than one blog of catastrophic failure of chainplates on older Valiant...or not the chainplates, but the knees themselves. All appeared fine on the surface, but the issues were subsurface cracking and substandard metal. On a 40 year old boat, those should be replaced anyway...they've well outlasted their useful life if original.

Why look at the low-end of the market? Why not try and cherry pick a valiant thats gone through an extensive re-fit at a reputable facility and has had owners plans that have changed. A boat like this (or similar like Baba/Tashiba/Panda, Pacific Seacraft, Nordic/Norstar) comes up about once a year. Just be ready with cash to pounce on it with a near full price offer!


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

I may be off base on this - if I am I'm certain I will soon be corrected,  but IIRC Valiant had a unique position in the history of blisters in that the Parent corporation, Uniflite, used a fire retardant resin that was particularly prone to blistering.


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## night0wl (Mar 20, 2006)

SloopJonB said:


> I may be off base on this - if I am I'm certain I will soon be corrected,  but IIRC Valiant had a unique position in the history of blisters in that the Parent corporation, Uniflite, used a fire retardant resin that was particularly prone to blistering.


You're on track...Valiants from roughly 1976 - 1980 used a fire retardant resin that never really kicked with the glass and tends to wick out and form hundreds of pimple blisters. Some have said this is cosmetic and other say structural. The legal issues around this failure led to the bankruptcy of the Uniflite yard, and the eventual buyout of Valiant by a dealer who relocated to Texas. Unfortunately, they stopped production in Jan-2011

I dont really know about the whole blister situation...the very thought of resin not kicking and not bonding with the glass makes me think that the structural integrity of the glasswork is not as strong as it should be, which is scary. But then again, there are no stories of Valiants splitting in two or being holed by a structural blister...just lots of time in the yard grinding, filling, fairing, & painting. Valiants are out there plying the seas as we speak...although it seems more and more are now in port, tired and worn out looking for a full refit that may never happen because the cost wouldn't justify the return due to depressed resale values because of the economy and blister issues.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

All the more reason that the Valiant 40 may be the "diamond in the rough"...a proven pedigree no doubt, bought for a song, breathed new life by an enthusiastic adventurer who understands that the sum of the parts are worth more the whole...why is is that every everybody seems to know the cost but not the price....it works both ways. seen many a Valiant plying the distant seas, more then one owner I know who is laughing his head off about the bargain he got and the miles he's put on...Easy for the naysayers to wax their gobs off on this stout sailing vessel....


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## night0wl (Mar 20, 2006)

aeventyr60 said:


> All the more reason that the Valiant 40 may be the "diamond in the rough"...a proven pedigree no doubt, bought for a song, breathed new life by an enthusiastic adventurer who understands that the sum of the parts are worth more the whole...why is is that every everybody seems to know the cost but not the price....it works both ways. seen many a Valiant plying the distant seas, more then one owner I know who is laughing his head off about the bargain he got and the miles he's put on...Easy for the naysayers to wax their gobs off on this stout sailing vessel....


Thats one perspective. But many people think of cruising for 4-5 years and then need to sell the boat to get back into life on land. When you spent $60k buying a boat, poured in another $100k to deal with upgrading and blister jobs...finish your cruise and find that the boat is worth $80k at resale minus brokerage costs, it tough gruel to swallow.

Valiants are fabulous boats, they're on my short list. But I'd be looking for one thats already has a blister bottom peel already done with a nice set of cruising gear already included thats in relatively new shape (<5 years). One of these boats comes up for sale every year...


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## montenido (May 14, 2008)

Hi all,

Thanks for the replies so far. I guess I should clear up the fact that I am not planning to make an offer on, or purchase this particular Valiant. Just looking and weighing my options. It is well set up for cruising though.

BTW, here is a link to the boat.

1975 Valiant Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Cheers, Bill


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## MarkCK (Jan 4, 2009)

I personally would keep the Catalina. Owning two boats at one time will be a huge anchor around your neck. You know the Catalina, you know what it can and can not do, what it will take to make it into the boat you want it to be. You are giving up a lot of known quantities and buying a boat that has a lot of unknown's for the possibility of an adventure you might not take.


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## curtcee (Jul 10, 2011)

I thought I'd remind anyone interested in Robert Perry designed boats that he (Perry) is available for consultation for a fee. You can reach him at Robert H Perry Yachts Designers Inc. Home Page

Curtis


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

curtcee said:


> I thought I'd remind anyone interested in Robert Perry designed boats that he (Perry) is available for consultation for a fee. You can reach him at Robert H Perry Yachts Designers Inc. Home Page
> 
> Curtis


+1. Awesome guy - and would be worth every penny.

He also posts here every now and again - as well as over at CA.


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## night0wl (Mar 20, 2006)

montenido said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Thanks for the replies so far. I guess I should clear up the fact that I am not planning to make an offer on, or purchase this particular Valiant. Just looking and weighing my options. It is well set up for cruising though.
> 
> ...


So this is a 1975. This could be a pre-blister boat. In which case, I'd say that the price is right in line. You may have a bit of wiggle room on price. What is the hull number? Anything around/above hull number 120 - 250 are the "pox" boats.

Here are some drawbacks to look out for. Its got the Westerbeke 4-107 engine...which is original to the boat! That engine is almost 40 years old now! Its going to need serious overhaul ($5k) or a repower entirely ($10-$15k).

Also, those electronics are a long in the tooth. The Autopilot alone has been out of production 10 years old. Its probably only got another couple of years left before it gives up the ghost. Factor about $12-$15k for a new suite of electronics (plotter, radar, depth, speed, ais, vhf, cabling and communication boxes, etc).

Hell, you're probably looking to rewire the entire boat after almost 40 years. You can do this job yourself, but its not fun and is painful. Probably $5-$7k to pay someone to do it.

I'd really really look at the chainplates and the chainplate knees based on what these guys experienced on their transocean trip: Syzygy Sailing » unromantic update (they had some very unkind words regarding the situation with those chainplates).

Valiants used aluminum tanks for water & fuel. As they age, they'll pitt and corrode and need to be replaced. $2-$5k job there.

All of the above points to me that this is an old tired world cruiser that probably was sold to a person with grand plans to fix her up again...but just never followed through with it. She's a boat with good bones, but will require a ton of money and time to bring up to world cruiser standards again. A lot has changed in the past 10 years in terms of kit & gear, and its all gotten so much more expensive due to commodity price inflation. Even engines and hoses since it seems like China is gobbling up near every commodity to feed their machine...I've seen 10-15% year on year price increases on things like engines and wiring.

If you can find a pre-blister boat with a new(er) engine, better electronics, rewired, with new tanks and redone chainplates for <$120k, I'd take that boat vs this one!


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

I'm not so sure about that 1976 start date for their blistering. My understanding was that their use of that fire retardant resin was connected to, or a result of their military gunboat work, which was Viet Nam era.

FYI, the river gunboat dropped from the chopper in "Apocalypse Now" was a real Uniflite gunboat.


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## night0wl (Mar 20, 2006)

SloopJonB said:


> I'm not so sure about that 1976 start date for their blistering. My understanding was that their use of that fire retardant resin was connected to, or a result of their military gunboat work, which was Viet Nam era.
> 
> FYI, the river gunboat dropped from the chopper in "Apocalypse Now" was a real Uniflite gunboat.


My sources:
BoatUS.com: Boat Reviews by Jack Hornor, N.A. - Valiant 40
Valiant 40 Review : Bluewaterboats.org


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## curtcee (Jul 10, 2011)

Robert Perry's book states that "...the first Valiant was launched in the fall of 1974..." It also states "...Uniflite faltered and went out of business in 1984 due to a fiasco with its Hetron fire-retardant polyester resin. Hetron was the resin Uniflite had used in the boats it had built for the U.S. military deployment on the Mekong delta in Vietnam."

Curtis


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## Jd1 (Aug 16, 2011)

night0wl said:


> Valiants are fabulous boats, they're on my short list. But I'd be looking for one thats already has a blister bottom peel already done with a nice set of cruising gear already included thats in relatively new shape (<5 years). One of these boats comes up for sale every year...


The problem is that a "blister job" is not necessarily the end of things. There have been blister jobs that required re-doing and there have been blister jobs that are supposedly holding up. I use the term 'supposedly' because the only known blister job that works is if the vast majority of the old fiberglass is peeled off. The term 'see thru' has been used for the material that is left. On the other hand, most 'blister jobs" actually done involve a surface peel and adding a couple of layers of fiberglass. If the job was done well you will get a build up of all the blister stuff at the junction of the old and the new fiberglass. If it wasn't done well it will penetrate. Maybe not in the first few years but what about ten years down the road? You also removed a bunch of fiberglass 'structure' and weakened the original structure and now you add a new layer or two of fiberglass that may contain any new blisters and cause structural weakness between the old fiberglass and the new.
Was the blister job done on just the hull? The entire boat is affected by the problem. Was the deck patched here and there or was it all peeled to the core and fiberglassed over ?
IMHO, the original issue isn't so much a structural issue but once you start peeling layers and have doubt about the inter-layer adhesion you have a potential structural issue on your hands.

As always, buyer beware .....


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

On the short term that 100 K seems like a lot, spread it over a few more years and your looking at about the right amount of money. One needs to take into account they are using up some of the value, dollars, with each mile they sail. No free lunch in cruising...especially when the fish aren't biting.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

A number of experienced pro's completely decry peeling for blisters. Blisters are, with few exceptions, a surface phenomenon and should be dealt with as such.

Most of the techniques I'm aware of state you shouldn't remove the gel coat any more than is necessary. A thorough drying out followed by a good epoxy barrier coat on top of spot blister repairs should be more than enough - unless you have something more than simple blisters going on.

The depth of the blister into the laminate should tell you a lot about your situation. I've seen boats from reputable builders COVERED in blisters - like a terminal case of acne on a teenager - but none of then were deeper than the skin coat of mat - I've never seen a blister that went into the laminate proper.

My current boat is old enough to have never had a blister but my previous cored boat had a few - none were anything to worry about - not even deep enough to warrant fiber thickened filler.

I'd like to hear what CharliCobra has to say on this - he said he had a new peeling machine stolen from him, which certainly implies he intended to use it.


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## rugosa (Aug 30, 2011)

Pretty boat from a far. BTW - brokers often refer to owning 2 boats as "the sickness"


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## night0wl (Mar 20, 2006)

SloopJonB said:


> A number of experienced pro's completely decry peeling for blisters. Blisters are, with few exceptions, a surface phenomenon and should be dealt with as such.
> 
> Most of the techniques I'm aware of state you shouldn't remove the gel coat any more than is necessary. A thorough drying out followed by a good epoxy barrier coat on top of spot blister repairs should be more than enough - unless you have something more than simple blisters going on.
> 
> ...


I'd say the same about most blisters out there...but Valiants are different. Because of resin never kicking, there can be large overlapping large blisters that are so bad, they are at the point where they are structural. So a peel job becomes a matter of saving the boat rather than just aesthetic.


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## Jd1 (Aug 16, 2011)

SloopJonB said:


> A number of experienced pro's completely decry peeling for blisters. Blisters are, with few exceptions, a surface phenomenon and should be dealt with as such.


The Valiant blister issue is definitively not a 'standard' blister. I wish I knew where I read this (but I don't) .... it is not just a simple matter of the resin not setting. Apparently a gas forms (I seem to recall this formation is accelerated by temperature) which over time forms an acid and makes itself a nice little home. It applies to ALL the fiberglass and not just the hull or the under water area. As a result, you can peel as much as you want, whatever is left of the original fiberglass will continue doing it's thing.


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## Jd1 (Aug 16, 2011)

Ok, found it. This a a cut-and paste from http://www.unifliteworld.com/models/models.html

"The Famous (infamous) Blister Problem" The issue regarding the fire-retardant resins causing blisters in later years (1975+) was a result of a change in suppliers of the fire retardant resin (Hetron). Earlier models (prior to 1975) contained a fire retardant called "Hetron" manufactured by Dupont Chemical and these boats did not have any blistering problems. When Dupont ceased production of Hetron 1975, a different fire retardant was used from a different manufacturer. Unfortunately, the new fire retardant contained a solid form of the chemical bromine which, unfortunately, evolved into a gas when the fiberglass was warmed sufficiently. This happened to Uniflites in warmer climates like Florida and California more then it did in the Pacific Northwest. This bromine gas created an acid that ate its way out of the gel coat. For this reason, if you were to grind out a deep blister you would notice a "gooey" material. The only way to remove a blister properly is to grind it out, let it dry, then fill the hole with a vinylester resin ($$). It doesn't solve the problem entirely but should provide a strong barrier (plug) to prevent the blister from reaching the surface again. In reality, the blisters will likely return.


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## SimonV (Jul 6, 2006)

Bill, the boat you have is a well known boat here in Oz, I have a couple of friends that bought C36s after they crossed the puddle and landed in Oz. Going back the way you came is tough and for that direction you will need a blue water boat. Set up for long range sailing they get good money here in Oz. When I crossed there was quite a number that I bumped into at different ports and they did fine also a couple of islander 36s. You will need to have a water maker {not big}, solar panels, a good auto pilot and maybe a back up, and definitely a tow generator. Its very doable and a blast. Oh I forgot lots of fuel cans.


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## montenido (May 14, 2008)

Hi all, thanks for the great replies. For the record, I do not intend to EVER own two boats at the same time (been there, done that ). 

Simon, at the risk of igniting a major fire, I am considering keeping my C36 and making the trip with it. I have heard from others as well that C36s are popular in Oz. They only get there one way - on their hulls! So, I know it is possible. 

In the mean time, the search goes on. I am quite enjoying looking at other boats and seeing what is out there. 

Thanks again, Bill


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Montenido

This might be a good boat for you. It is well equipped, overbuilt, and in good condition. Crealock « Southbound Solar


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## montenido (May 14, 2008)

Nice boat mitiempo. I'll give it some thought.

Thanks, Bill


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## sejohn59 (Apr 29, 2013)

We own one of the "blister boats" and had the blister repair job done, but some of the blisters came back. Just little ones, but annoying. In the overall scheme of things, though, our old Valiant40 has been a fabulous boat for us for 26 years. We sail the British Columbia coast and this boat has taken everything nature could throw at her and then some. Sometimes she comes out better than we do! We have hit our share of rocks over the years (6, I think at last count) and she never needed anything more than a quick repair of the leading edge of the keel. Built like a brick. She holds endless memories for us and I love our boat! Yes, the small blisters are annoying and I know off-putting to some. But this is a true sea boat and I trust her completely.


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