# Rapido 60 - The most perfect cruiser?



## paulanthony (Feb 9, 2015)

I discovered this little number from a company called Rapido - Home

To me it ticks all the boxes.

#1 More stability than a cat or mono.

#2 Safer than a cat.

#3 Rocket fast if you want it to be. 30 plus knots.

#4 Easy handling.

#5 Acres of space and one level living.

#6 Optimum size.

I have looked at 100's of craft and kept distant interest from tri's because they are all too small or too big or just weird. This is goldilocks porridge with extra sugar.

What you guys and girls think?

It does not have in-mast furling but I could live with that. (In joke for some people)


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

paulanthony said:


> #3 Rocket fast if you want it to be. 30 plus knots.


Ooooh, with that sort of speed you could "Sail around storms"... Hmmm, where have we heard that recently?

Cockpit looks cozy, and comfortable... And safe @ 30 knots, too...










Perhaps Prada still has some of their sailing gear from the last AC you could pick up at a good discount?










Go for it, sure looks "easy to sail", to me... The Perfect Cruiser, indeed...


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

I took a look at the website. Actually - it's pretty cool.

I still prefer a cat over a tri, but this thing is interesting. Pretty good polars:


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

It's a pretty interesting design. I probably would be looking more seriously at the Neel 65' were I in this market. Since they have a number of completed boats and worked thru some of the construction issues. But I would certainly look seriously at it.


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## paulanthony (Feb 9, 2015)

The Neel 65 looks a whole lot more complex to me and you can't see forward from the rear unless at the helm. Not being able to see forward would drive me nuts. The Neel design is just too holistically avant-garde for my taste. I think the design tries a little to hard and it does not know if it is a tri or a cat.

I agree that their would be a lot more production experience though with the Neel as they have completed a few hulls and I am sure there will be some big engineering issues to be proven off with this Rapido. Hull #3 #4 will have them ironed out.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

What are the advantages to a tri over a cat? It seems like a lot more expense for the extra hull without clear benefits.


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## paulanthony (Feb 9, 2015)

smackdaddy said:


> What are the advantages to a tri over a cat? It seems like a lot more expense for the extra hull without clear benefits.


I am no expert but I believe the tri is regarded as best platform for optimum sailing. Better balance, less pitching, more comfortable and basically combines the speed of a (fast) cat with the manoeuvrability of a mono. Usually though they don't lend themselves to decent accommodation plans and are more beamy than a cat. Not sure what a 40 foot beam would add as a multiplier in a marina. Big ouch factor.

With respect to safety I believe them to be less vulnerable to capsize than fast cats because they do provide a bit more warning and feel for the loads on the sail when approaching the limits and of course they have a bigger beam. I might be talking crap. I don't know, but this is what I have read.

I think on a tri you would run a greater risk of pitch poling before you flipped sideways. I have seen a few on youtube do this and there is an example of a dragonfly running a rate of knots when one of its pontoons buried itself and did not have the mass to push through the wave and it tripped and flipped. To be honest though it looked way out of control before this happened. Think it was racing.

Fast cats scare me somewhat. I would not trust them. Even Chris white has developed a mast foil to counter the problem of rapid main sail loading in a squall which has been the cause for some of his boats to flip.

I would consider a tri though but where would you keep a 2400 square foot boat such as the rapido? This to me is the biggest dent regarding it being the ideal cruiser although you could just use anchorages when in cruise mode.


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## paulanthony (Feb 9, 2015)

Stumble said:


> It's a pretty interesting design. I probably would be looking more seriously at the Neel 65' were I in this market. Since they have a number of completed boats and worked thru some of the construction issues. But I would certainly look seriously at it.


The Neel designs have come on some what "Stumble". The 65 has a roof patio. Had no idea. Yeh. You're right, worth a look if you were in that league but have a sneaky feeling it will come in 3 times the prices of the Rapido


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## paulanthony (Feb 9, 2015)

JonEisberg said:


> Ooooh, with that sort of speed you could "Sail around storms"... Hmmm, where have we heard that recently?
> 
> Cockpit looks cozy, and comfortable... And safe @ 30 knots, too...
> 
> ...


Silver is not my colour - Does not suit me...


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## hellsop (Jun 3, 2014)

paulanthony said:


> I am no expert but I believe the tri is regarded as best platform for optimum sailing. Better balance, less pitching,


My understanding is that tendency toward pitching is *largely* a simple matter of hull length and weight, and the "pitchy" people experience on a cat is because the thing has no keel full of ballast. Am I wrong? This thing also looks like it likely has no keel full of ballast either, so why would it be less pitchy than a cat of about the same size?



> more comfortable and basically combines the speed of a (fast) cat with the manoeuvrability of a mono.


Can you expand on this one as well? Why would cats be less manoeuverable? Is it just because of that (what looks like) 8-foot keel as opposed to the usually shallow draft that many cats have?



> Usually though they don't lend themselves to decent accommodation plans and are more beamy than a cat. Not sure what a 40 foot beam would add as a multiplier in a marina. Big ouch factor.


Based on the sketches, it certainly looks like the beam from the outside of one outrigger to the outside of the other is something on the order of 25-30 feet. That'll put you onto the end of any dock and only ones with a LOT of room out beyond at that.



> With respect to safety I believe them to be less vulnerable to capsize than fast cats because they do provide a bit more warning and feel for the loads on the sail when approaching the limits and of course they have a bigger beam. I might be talking crap. I don't know, but this is what I have read.
> 
> I think on a tri you would run a greater risk of pitch poling before you flipped sideways. I have seen a few on youtube do this and there is an example of a dragonfly running a rate of knots when one of its pontoons buried itself and did not have the mass to push through the wave and it tripped and flipped. To be honest though it looked way out of control before this happened. Think it was racing.
> 
> Fast cats scare me somewhat. I would not trust them. Even Chris white has developed a mast foil to counter the problem of rapid main sail loading in a squall which has been the cause for some of his boats to flip.


Yeah, well, that same giant canvas is part of the reason you might see the 30 knots.  That and the giant keel. If you sit down and do the math, the weight in the center might not be more stable than a catamaran with the weight outboard in two hulls. Any capsizing has to start with lifting a hull out, and that *should be* all but impossible. The discussion from cat owners is that any sensibly-canvased cat with reasonable keel management (windward swing keel only down, for example) will just slide sideways under any conditions that don't blow out the sail, and blowing out the sail solves the problem. (Tom Lack supposedly offered a not-insubstantial bounty for anyone that could get a Catalac to lift a hull. I don't think anyone ever claimed they had.)


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## paulanthony (Feb 9, 2015)

hellsop said:


> My understanding is that tendency toward pitching is *largely* a simple matter of hull length and weight, and the "pitchy" people experience on a cat is because the thing has no keel full of ballast. Am I wrong? This thing also looks like it likely has no keel full of ballast either, so why would it be less pitchy than a cat of about the same size?
> 
> Reply: I don't know if you are wrong. As I said I am no expert but it is generally what I have read and what I have been told by a friend of mine who is a senior aero designer at Red Bull F1. Think is is something to with C of G v's C of B, hull shape, buoyancy and and a myriad of other variables and constants that favour the tri with respect to comfort.
> 
> ...


..

Reply: Not all cats are using lifting keels and even if you have them how can we be sure we can make them disappear quick enough. I am told because a cat has high hull buoyancy the hull becomes a non compressing pivot point especially if the hull is thin. I agree that in theory they should all be safe but in practise we see performance cats (not racing cats) flipping because they get caught out by very fast weather changes. I think that a few companies have even introduced load censoring systems as fail safes because the human operator can not react fast enough. There is the alternative of a very heavy cat but that is more to do with lifestyle choice than fast sailing. There are some links knocking about that are an interesting read concerning a C White 57 cat that got blown over in a squall and another on a lake. There are quite a few tales of woe caused by high winds an not high seas with respect to cats.


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## FSMike (Jan 15, 2010)

That cockpit looks exposed to me. Is there a second helm under cover?


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## paulanthony (Feb 9, 2015)

I concluded that also. No second helm. I'm guessing they would put a bimimi over the rear deck of some sort but I'm thinking it needs a diagonal net after the rear beam else might lose some people overboard me thinks. )


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## FSMike (Jan 15, 2010)

I also wonder where the main sheet traveler is located?


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## paulanthony (Feb 9, 2015)

I think they will use a double mainsheet on the coach roof. Other than that would be a proper traveler after the rear deck. Think a double on coach would be safer. 

It is growing on me. You could really be a sea gypsy in that.


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## Paul Koch (Jan 23, 2016)

paulanthony said:


> The Neel 65 looks a whole lot more complex to me and you can't see forward from the rear unless at the helm. Not being able to see forward would drive me nuts. The Neel design is just too holistically avant-garde for my taste. I think the design tries a little to hard and it does not know if it is a tri or a cat.
> 
> I agree that their would be a lot more production experience though with the Neel as they have completed a few hulls and I am sure there will be some big engineering issues to be proven off with this Rapido. Hull #3 #4 will have them ironed out.


Hi All ,

I am actually new to this forum but I am not new to boat building ! The management team behind Rapido have actually have a combined 60 years multihull building experience including 1500 Corsair Trimarans and numerous large cats . Might be a bit more than most ! Check out the web site for the latest updates , first boat sailing late early March 2016 !

We have used the best designer and a really experienced team, and only bought the best equipment to put the Rapido 60 together , it will live up to expectations .

Regards Paul


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## Paul Koch (Jan 23, 2016)

paulanthony said:


> I think they will use a double mainsheet on the coach roof. Other than that would be a proper traveler after the rear deck. Think a double on coach would be safer.
> 
> It is growing on me. You could really be a sea gypsy in that.


The mainsheet is actually aft of the stern rail with " a proper travellor " and well out of harms way . Much safer where it is ! Winch is just in front of the helm .


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## Bleemus (Oct 13, 2015)

Paul Koch said:


> The mainsheet is actually aft of the stern rail with " a proper travellor " and well out of harms way . Much safer where it is ! Winch is just in front of the helm .


So it goes across the steps to the stern and tries to rip the stern pulpit thingie around the completely exposed cockpit off during a gybe?

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## Paul Koch (Jan 23, 2016)

Bleemus said:


> So it goes across the steps to the stern and tries to rip the stern pulpit thingie around the completely exposed cockpit off during a gybe?
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


No it cant rip the stern pushpit thingie off because the track is well clear of it and the mainsheet goes to the boom well behind it . I've done 30 plus tris like this before with no issues ! Much safer than most boats ! Sure if you tried really hard you could get your head knocked of by the mainsheet in a uncontrolled jibe but you have to consciously put it in harms way for it to happen !


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## Bleemus (Oct 13, 2015)

So where is the traveller in the drawing? If truly "well clear" then how do you have steps to the sugar scoop? 

Also, why are there wings on the rudder? 

What is the draft with the centerboard up and down? 

With the centerboard up the rudder is your lowest point. Does it retract somehow? 




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## Paul Koch (Jan 23, 2016)

Hi Bleemus ,

You will see many answers to your questions on our web site at rapidotrimarans.com

There is a gate in the stern rail , the track is between the rail and the first step and is recessed so you don't trip over it when going down the steps .

Draft board down 3.7 Metres ( 12 feet )

Draft Board and Rudder up .75 M (2.5 Feet ) Rudder and daggerboard lift up 

Regarding the rudder , please see the quote from Pete Melvin when I asked him to explain why the wings are on the rudder

"The Rapido 60 has winglets on the rudder for several reasons. Dynamic stability is improved, especially on the pitch axis. Pitch reduction increases the comfort of the people on board but also improves performance. Less pitching improves air flow over the rig and increases total drive force. More energy is used to drive the boat forward rather than being absorbed by pitching motions. Winglets also help control trim. Bow-up trim creates a positive angle of attack and vertical lift on the elevators, helping control excessive trim and associated hull drag. The boat is safer and easier to sail downwind in more extreme conditions since the elevators create downforce at the transom when the bow pitches down, helping lift the bow back up. 

When we first tested winglets we thought that there would be a tradeoff in performance where we would gain speed and control in windier conditions, especially in larger seas, but that there would be additional drag in lighter winds that would reduce performance. What we found in reality is that the winglets never seam to be detrimental and almost always actually improve performance through the range of wind and sea conditions."...

Best Regards, 

Pete Melvin 
Morrelli & Melvin Design & Engineering, Inc.


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## Bleemus (Oct 13, 2015)

Thanks Pete. 


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

Where do you dock a square boat?


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## Paul Koch (Jan 23, 2016)

Shockwave said:


> Where do you dock a square boat?


18 Metres x 12 metres is not square , but really made for sailing not docking ! There are still places in the world where you can dock it !

Life is one big compromise , can't please everybody !


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

Just reality, sometimes you have to park it to deal with other aspects of life. Unless you are able to find an end tie, what do you do?


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

If you are using it for extended cruising, and I wonder if it has the load capacity for this, you rarely tie up to a dock. You anchor out just about anywhere. Now we could ask the question about what kind of anchor would be best for this boat ...


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## css145hs (Jan 23, 2016)

If this was folding and ~50', I'd snatch it up. Criteria:
+ folding tri, to fit in normal slips, but offer faster passages and fun weekends
+ easy to single/double hand
+ good interior volume, comfortable for liveaboard

I'm not aware of any boat on the market that meets this. The DF35 and Corsair 37 do not have enough interior volume for living aboard (IMO)... not enough fridge/freezer/fuel/water capacity and I think I'd constantly be kicking my dog with the cramped layout. Also seems awkward to fit solar and dinghy davits to these. Oh please will someone design me a boat and take my money ;-)


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## paulanthony (Feb 9, 2015)

css145hs said:


> If this was folding and ~50', I'd snatch it up. Criteria:
> + folding tri, to fit in normal slips, but offer faster passages and fun weekends
> + easy to single/double hand
> + good interior volume, comfortable for liveaboard
> ...


But how much is that technology going to cost and weigh? If you could afford the extra tech I think you could afford to pay for a slip on the occasions you might need one. I think the cost v's gain kind of cancels each other out.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Did Newport to Bermuda race on a tri. Huge advantages c/w cat from point of view of working the boat. 
Have single centerboard instead of two daggerboards. Easier to use. Better to windward.
No slamming in a seaway. No bridge deck to catch a wave. No trapped air underneath.
Solid deck not netting underfoot when going forward to "play" on fordeck. Big deal anchoring or when using light air sails.
Easier to anchor. Need not use bridle if you don't want to. Easier to design in easy way to store and deploy rode.
Ala/ama set up means less wetted surface in very light air as one is out of the water.
Very narrow hulls. Much less likely to stall hitting waves when going to windward.
Single rudder and dynamics means much simpler steering system. Less likely to break. Can even use simple tiller even on large boats.
Engine in place were you can service or fix even when offshore.
Tanks can be much lower and near center of boat. Better motion. Or easier to set up water ballast.

Big downside is single narrow hull for accommodations and difficulty getting headrooms until they get over 40-50'. Still weight sensitive. Hauls/slips/ low speed boat handling all difficult. May even need cranes.
My 2 cents.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Pete that's one hell of a boat. Congratulations on an excellent design. Are any going to be on east coast U.S. to be seen?


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

smackdaddy said:


> What are the advantages to a tri over a cat? It seems like a lot more expense for the extra hull without clear benefits.


I've got a bit over half a circumnavigation on a Searunner 37' tri and I much prefer tri's over cats. I found her performance to be equal to any comparable cruising boat going to weather at sea. I was told by the Suez Canal authorities that we were the first multihull to sail the length of the Red Sea completely under sail. That was 1200 miles to weather in winds of 20 to 30 knots.
On a tri, you must sink one hull (ama or float, if you prefer) before you can raise the other (on a buoyant float tri, which is best for cruising), and neither float will support the weight of the boat so there is a much later point of no return than on a cat. 
Though the speed of a multihull can be handy when you've only got 4 hours before sunset to reach an anchorage 50 miles away, I personally am not comfortable letting a 'mindless machine' (autopilot/vane gear) sail the boat at much over 10 or 12 knots, so we didn't do a lot of super fast passage making. 
The only safety any multihull has against capsize or dismasting in a big gust is acceleration, so they need to be kept light. The new generation of catamaran 'roomarans' (OTOH, see Rudy Choy designs for performance cruising cats) are way too heavy for this and therefor would be subject to capsize, if they had the rig to do so. This is the biggest detraction of tri's, IMO. No scuba gear, air conditioning or a huge battery bank if you are looking at a safe cruising tri from 35 to 45 feet.
One other thing to consider if looking at a tri as a cruiser. Hurricanes! A good sailing tri (or any multihull) must be a very light boat (the 37' Searunner coming in at about 5 tons). If the cabin extends from float to float, you have a wing with lift that in winds exceeding 100 knots can actually give the boat lift, not the best idea in my mind. Non-solid wings can alleviate this but drastically reduce living space. Jim Brown solved the problem by ending the cabin half way out the wing and putting the lift upside down, driving the boat deeper into the water when anchored in high winds, making it more stable and safe.
I considered my tri to be the ultimate family cruiser and there are some days when I would trade all the luxury of my present boat to be back, skipping across the surface of the seas on a stable platform from which to set sails.


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## FSMike (Jan 15, 2010)

One thing's for sure - if you can afford to buy the boat, you can afford to build a dock.
And if you do buy it, can I go for a ride lol?


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## css145hs (Jan 23, 2016)

paulanthony said:


> css145hs said:
> 
> 
> > If this was folding and ~50', I'd snatch it up. Criteria:
> ...


The reason to fit in a normal slip isn't money savings. It's because I want to continue living aboard in downtown Seattle. If you can find a place to buy a large multi that allows liveaboards, then you're ahead of the 3-5 year wait lists I'm on.


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## Bleemus (Oct 13, 2015)

You are not the target market for this boat. 


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## Paul Koch (Jan 23, 2016)

outbound said:


> Pete that's one hell of a boat. Congratulations on an excellent design. Are any going to be on east coast U.S. to be seen?


Hull number 1 will be doing a bit of a world tour in 2016 !

March , Vietnam , Cambodia , Gulf of Thailand , Malaysia , Singapore , Langkawi , Phuket Thailand ,

Summer in Europe , then Newport Boat Show , Annapolis and so on.....

That's the rough plan anyway subject to change of course due to weather etc... Will be a great test for the boat and crew !


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## jdazey (Jan 16, 2016)

Paul - it's a very interesting boat, one designed for sailors. I hope to catch up with it at one of the shows. Fortunately I already bought a boat, so I don't have to figure out some way to pay for this one. Close call.


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## Ross from YBBN (Jun 10, 2017)

Maybe one day I'll own one of these. Love tris. Fastest sail craft around the World non stop single handed or crewed. Mad Frenchmen but do they know their tris! Every record for an ocean passage is held by the French in a tri. Now all I have to do is keep working on my wife and the bank.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Believe boat is 1.2m out the door. Floats fold to decrease area when put on the hard. Can put spray shield in front of helm position. Current APs may in fact be better helmsman than you at speed. Talk with NKE. Watts and Sea with Li bank should address battery bank issue. Small watermaker tankage.
Expect boat will anchor out much if not all the time. Wonder how ground tackle is spec'd to allow sufficient rode for this to occur when in deep anchorages.
Given apparent wind gets faster and moves farther forward as speed through the water increases expect this boat will nearly always be beating in a fresh breeze or stronger regardless of TWS or TWA. Wonder about ease of reefing while underway and balance as reefing occurs. 
Still think this is the best design to come out in years. A boat that truly performs and is liveable. Compared to G4 it makes so much more sense.


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