# the proper type of heat



## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

So, one of the items i am trying to overcome is deciding on a heat system.
hydronic, or hot air.
Hydronic has many advantages, distributed heat, longer life, hot water. 
The disadvantages are cost, you must buy the unit, plus hose, plus radiators, plus fans, plus thermostats, plus expansion tank. It uses more power. It also takes a very long time to install.

Hot air has been known to have a short life, and use more fuel. It also requires less power, and easy installation.

our use will only be on cold nights, other times we will be in favorable climates, and if it is bitter cold we will run the generator for reverse cycle heat, or electric heat. 

So my question is:
How many of you have used the air heat units, and how long did they last?
This is not the primary heat, and at the dock, we use the reverse cycle heat.

we will be on anchor more, but will follow the nice weather...


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Agree on the reduced cost of forced air vs hydronic, but wonder if installation (esp routing of hoses vs larger diameter ducting) is truly more difficult for hydronic outside installing the radiator units. Seems the other advantages would make it worthwhile in the long run.

If use is truly going to be limited, a central space heater, esp a 'diesel stove' can be very effective although perhaps less so on a boat of your size at 48ft.

I'm a tad leery of the typical Espar type air heater as on so many boats listed for sale that have them, they are often non functional. As with anything, though, steady use and proper maintenance goes a long way.


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## IStream (Dec 15, 2013)

Running 3/4" diameter water hose can be way easier than running 3" diameter air hose that can't have sharp bends. 

I bought a boat with hydronic heat and love it. It also ties in nicely with the engine for heat and hot water while underway.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

I'm surprised to hear of early failures on hot air systems. The Webasto AT2000 on my boat is 28 years old and works great. I did replace the exhaust and some ducting recently, and it needs periodic fuel filter changes, but otherwise it is a reliable unit.

What is the normal failure mode?


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

i only know what i read, no first hand knowledge of this. I understand the circulation fan burns up? and that is the heart of the system.


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

not going to start a new topic for this, but can a 24 volt heater be converted to 12v? I have found some nice 100,000BTU heaters, all 24 volts. as i want to heat the cockpit as well when cold, 100,000BTU will be a nice size.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

All of the parts for the Webasto are easy to source and replace. The fan is $295 retail, around here (Seattle) it would be pretty easy to get for $230-$250 through an installer.

12V vs 24V: You'd have to look at the parts diagram for the system. 

I do have to wonder what the fuel consumption of a 100,000 BTU heater would be. The Webasto/Espar heaters used on boats are typically 10% of that. 100,000 BTU is a bigger heater than what heats my 1800sqft house.


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

the exact unit i am looking at is 85,000btu, and burns 0.8GPH. how often it will run is another story. I was only planning to use it to take the chill off the boat in the mornings, and i will use it a lot in the polar trips. 

True, most home heaters are about 100,000BTU in the north east. But your house is insulated. My cockpit is not.


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## jrd22 (Nov 14, 2000)

I installed a hot air system (Wallas) because I didn't have room for the individual radiators at the locations available. Running the 3" ducts was easy, but I had lots of room and I could see that being a real pain (impossible) in many boats. As far as reliability goes, I've only had it for about 4-5 years (no problems or issues, completely dependable and it is used a lot) so can't really comment. I like the low power draw of the Wallas.


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## joethecobbler (Apr 10, 2007)

wood stove, inexpensive, simple installation, reliable, multiple fuel options, inexpensive.


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

joethecobbler said:


> wood stove, inexpensive, simple installation, reliable, multiple fuel options, inexpensive.


Its a good option, in fact i gave the wall mounted diesel heaters a lot of thought.
Issue is they do not put out enought heat. I want a warm cockpit too.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

I don't see a great solution for a heated exterior cockpit, even 100,000 BTU will just be a quick way to burn through fuel. 

If you had a pilot house that would be one thing, but from your blog it looks like your boat has a hard dodger and sometimes a bimini.


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

Alex W said:


> I don't see a great solution for a heated exterior cockpit, even 100,000 BTU will just be a quick way to burn through fuel.
> 
> If you had a pilot house that would be one thing, but from your blog it looks like your boat has a hard dodger and sometimes a bimini.


I am making the front half hard enclosed, and the back half soft enclosed. 
If i didnt have that mast in te way, the whole thing would be a hard enclosure.


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## joethecobbler (Apr 10, 2007)

been using mine for years, center cockpit, full canvas enclosure, the woodstove will blast you out of the cabin! open the companionway and heat rises into cockpit. also greatly reduces condensation and as a bonus you can cook on it.
spent the winter aboard last year in the Chessy,even use it underway. only drawback I have is it is dirty, you smell like woodsmoke.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Had bulkhead mounted diesel drip on T 37. Hated it. Moisture level in boat. Only local heat.
Had espar forced air in PSC 34. Adequate in small boat but noisy and needs fans/ tubing runs which seriously compromise storage lockers. Heat not even.
Have hydronic wabasco in current boat. Love it. Quite, three zones, even heat. Only issue has been thermostats( not wesbasco). May end up replacing them. Like furnace not in living space. Like plumbing runs are very narrow unlike air ducts. Like having hot water whenever. 
Have AC as well so can do reverse cycle. Run hydronic in preference. Much nicer especially if sleeping.


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## Delta-T (Oct 8, 2013)

IMO, and I am a professional HVAC designer, hydronic would be best and easiest to install. You can use a Pex tubing PEX Tubing , ThermaPEX PEX Tubing , Radiant Heat PEX Tubing , Wirsbo PEX Tubing , Radiant Heat - PexSupply.com and, forces air hydronic toe space heaters K42 - Beacon Morris K42 - K42 Kick Space Heater Toe space heaters have integral T-stats to turn fans on when the water comes up to temp. And if you have access to the underside of the cockpit floor or seats, in floor/seat radiant would work great. Everything you need to know and calculate what you need can be found here... PEX - Radiant Heat - Radiant Heating - Plumbing Supplies - PexSupply.com

Sorry, I have never used or designed for a boat application, but Pex is made for piping hot water and can be used with glycol, is very veritable and reasonably priced.

Edit: I am in no way affiliated with Pex.


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## Delta-T (Oct 8, 2013)

Also, as you know, hydronic can be connected to your engine cooling water to get free heat when under way. Here is a propane fired tankless instant hot water heater. It has the regulator and hose ready to go, just connect to tank. Water Heaters | Tankless Water Heaters - Gas | Eccotemp L10 High Capacity Tankless Water Heater | B602208 - GlobalIndustrial.com

And here is a 12V hydronic to air exchanger http://www.go2marine.com/product/20172F/radex-hot-water-forced-air-heater.html?WT.srch=1&WT.mc_id=gb1&utm_source=googlebase&utm_medium=productfeed&utm_campaign=googleshopping&gclid=CKC0o4KRprwCFeh0QgodLwMApg http://www.suremarineservice.com/REAL-fan-heaters.aspx


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Delta-T said:


> Also, as you know, hydronic can be connected to your engine cooling water to get free heat when under way. Here is a propane fired tankless instant hot water heater. It has the regulator and hose ready to go, just connect to tank. Water Heaters | Tankless Water Heaters - Gas | Eccotemp L10 High Capacity Tankless Water Heater | B602208 - GlobalIndustrial.com
> 
> And here is a 12V hydronic to air exchanger Dickinson Marine - Radex Hot Water Forced Air Heater Sure Marine Service, Inc. | REAL Hydronic Air Handlers


I've heard of some serious insurance related issues with the propane tankless heaters, looked at a boat a few years back that had had it ripped out for that reason, couldn't get coverage? Could be they are approved now. The size/location of the venting seems to limit installation options.

Like the idea of hydronic despite added costs..

Looked at the links for the heat exchangers.. bulky units that might be difficult to install under bunks or floors...

Out: are yours similar? or more compact versions?


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## Delta-T (Oct 8, 2013)

The smallest toe space heater, in only 120v (.45 amp), are 12" wide, 4" tall and 13" deep. Squirrel cage, two speed fans and wiper quiet. Having a nice toasty floor is the best. The toe space do not come in 12V. I looked up replacing the C frame 120 motor with a 12 VDC, but I am not finding any. The 12 VDC heat exchangers are a bit bulky, but you won't need many. The one I posted link to is 10" wide, 5: deep and 7" tall. Maybe I missed the size of the OPs boat, but I assume if he is considering heat, the boat is sizable and can handle the space requirements.

As far as the propane hot water heater goes, this is only one easy option. I would also assume the OP already has means of creating hot water. But the heater I posted does not involve gas piping, has all the fail safe bells and whistles. Electronic ignition with prooffer, water flow proofer, high temp shutdown and in a heat shielded case made to be wall mounter. and is setup to be used exterior. I was running this installation scenario through my head and was thinking it does not need to be used very often and could be a removable exterior instillation and stored when not in use. When needed you could have water quick connections and temp. mount near the propane tank. This heater also needs 120v to operate, but it is a transformer 120 and heater uses low voltage, I'm sure it could be modified to use 12VDC.

This was just a suggestion, as you know there are many means to create hot water for a hydronic system.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

Delta-T said:


> IMO, and I am a professional HVAC designer, hydronic would be best and easiest to install. You can use a Pex tubing PEX Tubing , ThermaPEX PEX Tubing , Radiant Heat PEX Tubing , Wirsbo PEX Tubing , Radiant Heat - PexSupply.com and, forces air hydronic toe space heaters K42 - Beacon Morris K42 - K42 Kick Space Heater Toe space heaters have integral T-stats to turn fans on when the water comes up to temp. And if you have access to the underside of the cockpit floor or seats, in floor/seat radiant would work great. Everything you need to know and calculate what you need can be found here... PEX - Radiant Heat - Radiant Heating - Plumbing Supplies - PexSupply.com
> 
> Sorry, I have never used or designed for a boat application, but Pex is made for piping hot water and can be used with glycol, is very veritable and reasonably priced.
> 
> Edit: I am in no way affiliated with Pex.


Most domestic hydronic kick space heaters have a pretty poor form factor for the hull curvature in boats as they are usually quite deep designed to fit under a deep & flat kitchen cabinet.. A 12V squirrel cage, in that configuration, would also be hard to come by and you'd now likely exceed the cost of a 12V hydronic air handler..

There are plenty of hydronic air handlers/exchangers available in 12V. In Europe they are more plentiful than here but shipping kills you.

*Hamilton Marine* has a slew of "bus heaters" that can easily be adapted to hydronic use but draw a bit more DC than one would like at anchor. They can be noisy but a DC fan speed controller can be added to keep it quieter and reduce DC draw..

If using PEX in a hydronic system be sure it as a hydronic heat rated PEX or what is called a vapor barrier PEX. Heatway Onix or similar will likely be the easiest tubing to work with on a boat because it is far more flexible than standard hydronic PEX.

*ITR* the folks who make the Hurricane Hydronic Boiler also have a slew of air handlers.

*Dickinson* also makes their line of Radex air handlers...

A bus heater, like the ones from Hamilton, off the engine, will supply PILES of cockpit heat. The lobstermen who fish winters here in Maine pretty much all use them...


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Have always thought it would be nice to have a heated helmsman seat. Have someway to heat core blood the rest stays warm. Don't like enclosures. Obstacle if you need to go,forward in a hurry and takes you out of the environment . Might as well be looking at a screen and be inside. Do hide under the hard dodger and crack the companionway. Warm , out of the wind and dry.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

outbound said:


> Have always thought it would be nice to have a heated helmsman seat. Have someway to heat core blood the rest stays warm. Don't like enclosures. Obstacle if you need to go,forward in a hurry and takes you out of the environment . Might as well be looking at a screen and be inside. Do hide under the hard dodger and crack the companionway. Warm , out of the wind and dry.


You could get something like this, but I don't think it is water proof.

Symtec Universal Seat Heater - JCWhitney


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

You know how sometimes you see those fiberglass/plastic bucket seats rigged up on a pedestal behind the wheel????

.. now I'm envisioning the heated seat out of my SUV mounted the same way


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## Delta-T (Oct 8, 2013)

Faster said:


> You know how sometimes you see those fiberglass/plastic bucket seats rigged up on a pedestal behind the wheel????
> 
> .. now I'm envisioning the heated seat out of my SUV mounted the same way


Here you go... Toast Heated Clothes - Heated Long Underwear - Heated Clothing


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Have used heated clothes hunting but don't think they would last long on a boat. Was thinking run a coil off hydronic system imbedded in seat with simple thermostat. KISS principle. Something like the HVAC systems in hard hat diving suits from my limited knowledge.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

outbound said:


> Have always thought it would be nice to have a heated helmsman seat. Have someway to heat core blood the rest stays warm. Don't like enclosures. Obstacle if you need to go,forward in a hurry and takes you out of the environment . Might as well be looking at a screen and be inside. Do hide under the hard dodger and crack the companionway. Warm , out of the wind and dry.


Love my wheelhouse with inside steering, right across from my wood stove. I have a 12 volt biker vest I plug in when motoring ,when I have lots of alternator juice. I am thinking about an electric blanket I can plug into my inverter when motoring, so my bunk will be toasty when I arrive in an anchorage late at night.

I have been living aboard year round ,mostly in BC, for over 40 years . I have tried other heat sources, and nothing matches my airtight stainless wood stove , I have built others, for people who were abandoning their oil stoves. All say they would never go back, and say the wood stove was the best heat source they have ever experienced. We are surrounded by beaches piled high with free firewood here, but in suburbia it can be harder to find. Construction sites can be a good source, as well as cutoffs from lumber yards.


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## mitchbrown (Jan 21, 2009)

I always try to talk people into doing things the simplest way possible. So along that vein I would suggest that the simplest heater is the bulkhead mounted diesel heater. I have a sigmarine 170 which is the largest bulkhead unit that sig/Dickenson makes, on my Bene 390 and it does a nice job of heating the thing. using a few fans to move the heat around. If you are interested in extracting heat from the engine you could get a Red dot heater from ebay for around a hundred depending on which unit you get. put it in series with the water heater loop and it will just work. Simple. 

To me a boat that's overly complex in time becomes an overly complex piece of junk which will do its best to make you miserable .


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

mitchbrown said:


> I always try to talk people into doing things the simplest way possible. So along that vein I would suggest that the simplest heater is the bulkhead mounted diesel heater. I have a sigmarine 170 which is the largest bulkhead unit that sig/Dickenson makes, on my Bene 390 and it does a nice job of heating the thing. using a few fans to move the heat around. If you are interested in extracting heat from the engine you could get a Red dot heater from ebay for around a hundred depending on which unit you get. put it in series with the water heater loop and it will just work. Simple.
> 
> To me a boat that's overly complex in time becomes an overly complex piece of junk which will do its best to make you miserable .


There is nothing simpler than a stainless airtight wood stove. Cant possibly over flow .


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Brent around here its illegal to go above the high water mark. You are trespassing. Some places you can get shot. There isn't much driftwood any way. Dragging wood into a boat is dirty and hard to store. Brings in bugs. In a boat of any decent size don't get even heat. Have to tend to the fire. Pain in the butt. Another chore.
Live in the nineteenth century. Have at it. I'd rather push a button on my hydronic heater. Not to hot not too cold just right.
BTW do you churn your own butter?
In past had a wood stove in a jacket with a fan and kettle on top. Also had a wood lot with oak/ maple. Let stuff season before burning. Other than chainsaw supplies free. Still a PIA. Feed it at least 2/3 times a day. Also need to get rid of ash. Cold in am until banked fire got back up to speed. Went to coal. Still cheap. Longer burn. Still a PIA. 
No thanks I'll stay in this century. Might surprise you even big boats are a small volume compared to a house. Cored boats or insulated boats( like mine) are easy to heat. Electric comes off solar/ wind. Sips diesel once boat warms up. Small expense and improves quality of life dramatically. Try it you' ll like it.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

outbound said:


> Brent around here its illegal to go above the high water mark. You are trespassing. Some places you can get shot. There isn't much driftwood any way. Dragging wood into a boat is dirty and hard to store. Brings in bugs. In a boat of any decent size don't get even heat. Have to tend to the fire. Pain in the butt. Another chore.
> Live in the nineteenth century. Have at it. I'd rather push a button on my hydronic heater. Not to hot not too cold just right.
> BTW do you churn your own butter?
> In past had a wood stove in a jacket with a fan and kettle on top. Also had a wood lot with oak/ maple. Let stuff season before burning. Other than chainsaw supplies free. Still a PIA. Feed it at least 2/3 times a day. Also need to get rid of ash. Cold in am until banked fire got back up to speed. Went to coal. Still cheap. Longer burn. Still a PIA.
> No thanks I'll stay in this century. Might surprise you even big boats are a small volume compared to a house. Cored boats or insulated boats( like mine) are easy to heat. Electric comes off solar/ wind. Sips diesel once boat warms up. Small expense and improves quality of life greater. Try it you' ll like it.


Around here anything below high water mark is public, and with 17 ft tides that is a lot of ground. Most of the coast here is public land anyway. Canada is a much freer country.
I've never had a problem of any kind with bugs on driftwood around here. Huge piles of driftwood here, free for the taking. Cut it with a chainsaw and its super clean inside, much cleaner than oil. With an inch and a half of spray foam insulation everywhere, the heat is very even in the first 15 minutes.
Fill her up, and I can go up to 14 hours with zero fire attending. To do that the stove must be airtight, and thus controllable.
Friends who insist on being able to simply push a button, work full time to support such demands , while us last century types work a month a year and cruise the rest of the year . Gathering firewood is a very pleasant activity, far more so that going to work to pay Shell Oil.
Fish boats here use oil , and frequently burn to the waterline , when the oil pours out and the valve sticks.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Brent folks may not be aware of your statements on other threads and your hostility and misleading statements which evoked the prior response. Please don't attack my country. Canada is not a much freer country in my view. Given the wait for services and absence of some I've helped many Canadians through the years. For most of us wood takes up significant volume if used as a heat source. We view our boats as a source of comfort and try to avoid needless chores. There's always a hit list on any boat. We wish to have reliable heat as we cruise. We are not stuck for weeks or months in one small corner of the world because driftwood is available. I for one have no room to store adequate wood. I'm not sailing a 74 ship of the line. Just a moderate sized sailboat rapidly filling with my brides "essentials". As stated- if a wood stove works for you have at it. But to make such a parochial statement that it is better for others is offensive. The reason I worked for decades is to have the freedom to sail in comfort. Forced hot water heat isn't a new technology. Maintenance is minimal for hydronic systems on boats and will last decades with a modicum of attention.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Brent- most of us are proud of what we've done for a living. Some of us be it Bob, Jon, Smack or me view it as a profession. We've contributed to the world every day at work. Somewhat more so then beach combing for wood or collecting lumberyard scraps. Please not attack those efforts. I grew up on the lower east side of ny. I've struggled in my time to stay fed,dry and warm. I never expected to be able to cruise. For you to say I'm working for Shell oil is once again absurd and offensive.


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## Pearson796 (Dec 21, 2013)

Faster said:


> I'm a tad leery of the typical Espar type air heater as on so many boats listed for sale that have them, they are often non functional. As with anything, though, steady use and proper maintenance goes a long way.


Espars require LOTS of maintenance and aren't reliable. I'm speaking from experience in use on Trucks. I wouldn't buy one are even assumed the unit would work if there was one installed on a boat.

Odd thing about Espar. One minute they will work find and the next they won't for unexplainable reasons.


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## joethecobbler (Apr 10, 2007)

Huh, as an American, a decorated veteran, and former NY resident, wasn't offended in the least by Brent's post.
of course I also share his philosophy in other ways, mainly concerning sailing/voyaging.
I think his reference to working 40hrs./ for 40 years has merit as well.
Another observation I've made is their seems to by two different camps when it comes to sailing/cruising.
in one you have the modern contemporary work, career, retirement, buy boat, slip boat.
the other being self sufficientcy,no slip,primitive simple independent approach.
I've noticed the first type detest and look down on the second and purport a moral high ground.
the second type take pleasure mocking the first for their financial extravagant purchases,pointing out a cheaper, but not necessarily easier method.
I've found it's difficult if not impossible to convince either that there is merit in the others approach.
I think it comes down to what you get out or expect from sailing, and apparently that's a little different for each of us.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Have sailed many years in all kinds of boats.big small fast slow old new. Don't see any moral high ground just sea level. Seen snots and saints in all kind of boats through the years as well. Just don't like anybody telling anybody my way is the right way and there is no other way. Brent been doing that for some time now. It just rubs me the wrong way. Some each other some help themselves. Some do both.
One of the worst things you can do to a person is approach them with preconceived attitudes. As an ex city boy. Please don't catch an attitude


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## joethecobbler (Apr 10, 2007)

oh,there's plenty of things worse,plenty.
if you're thin skinned such that something somebody says or writes is considered "one of the worse things "
you might be playing in the wrong places as far as the internet is concerned.
course that's just my perspective, wouldn't want to upset anyone cuz of it.

I probably won't agree with your opinion, but my opinion is you got a right to voice it, just like every body else. 

here's another one- 
it's your lie,tell it any way you want.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

A country where you can pick your firewood of any beach where beaches are all public access to the high tide mark is not as free as one where you can't ,where private property extends to the low water mark?
A country where health care is free, is not as free as one one where the amount of money you have determines whether you live, or are allowed to die? 
Ya sure!
When I leave here, I carry enough wood to get me to where the water is warm. Then I don't need it any more, and my wood stove becomes storage . Ditto coming home. People freezing in the ice storm power outages would have loved to have last century heating technology, especially with all those broken trees around .Much more security in just having it available.
My boat is a31 footer. I pile the firewood in the back of my cockpit. Don't have to pile much, as more is only 30 yards away. Takes me about 15 minutes to gather a weeks supply.


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## joethecobbler (Apr 10, 2007)

I spent last winter in the Chesapeake arrived right after Storm Sandy. there were so many trees down ,when I went ashore people were paying me to cut it up.
I stopped at one location and repaired a dock in exchange for dockage and when people saw I was heating with wood they were bringing it out and stacking in on the dock during the day when I was working! alot of nice cedar.
I like to cut the small stuff with a 18v ryobi I charge it from solar.
and a couple times there were power outages, but not for me!
I bag it,the cedar is very nice smelling and a natural insect repellent.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Joe thanks for the kind thoughts. Wasn't thinking of the internet rather general approach to life.maybe we'll cross paths and swap sea stories.


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## joethecobbler (Apr 10, 2007)

I've been know to go up and down the Hudson, hit the open house party at Castleton boat club where I take my mast down. ended up hanging for 2-3 days, even at a dock!! what a blowout, band,food,refreshments all night, big crowd, alot of boats.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

outbound said:


> Have sailed many years in all kinds of boats.big small fast slow old new. Don't see any moral high ground just sea level. Seen snots and saints in all kind of boats through the years as well. Just don't like anybody telling anybody my way is the right way and there is no other way. Brent been doing that for some time now. It just rubs me the wrong way. Some each other some help themselves. Some do both.
> One of the worst things you can do to a person is approach them with preconceived attitudes. As an ex city boy. Please don't catch an attitude


When people look for a better and more affordable way to do things, I simply give them the benefit of my over 40 years of experience living very comfortably aboard in a cold climate, on a shoestring budget. If that irritates those who give answers based on far less experience, so be it. If that undermines the credibility of their posts , so be it. This is about an exchange of information and experiences, to help others benefit from the experience of others, from those who have found solutions. When someone suggests trying something which I have tried, I will speak out, to help them avoid the mistakes and problems I have dealt with in the past. It is not a competition. When someone who has zero experience cruising the BC coast year round, something I have done for decades, give misleading information , then yes I will correct him, to help people avoid the pitfalls of following misinformation. When many, who have zero steel boat experience, give misleading information on a subject they know little about, and in some cases, almost nothing about , I will correct them, for the benefit of those who may be harmed by such misinformation. If some follow the advice of totally inexperienced armchair experts, then it is their choice. I give them an alternative . Whether they take it or not, the consequences are of their own making. If that person giving the misinformation happens to be a moderator, tough ! 
This is not a competition. If you want a competition, try the online poker sites


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

joethecobbler said:


> Huh, as an American, a decorated veteran, and former NY resident, wasn't offended in the least by Brent's post.
> of course I also share his philosophy in other ways, mainly concerning sailing/voyaging.
> I think his reference to working 40hrs./ for 40 years has merit as well.
> Another observation I've made is their seems to by two different camps when it comes to sailing/cruising.
> ...


Great post!
I believe there are the politics of envy at work here. When someone has based all their decisions on the super conventional persuit of wealth and materialism , judges himself and others by a standard that others don't value , or even recognise ,and has had that drummed into them by upbringing, family pressures etc., it comes as a cultural shock to see someone enjoying life far more, at a fraction the cost , in both time and money, and with far more freedom, by simply dancing to a different drummer. It challenges their beliefs . After dedicating their lives to one way of thinking, seeing someone enjoying life far more, coming from the opposite perspective , unintentionally mocks the ideas they have based all their life decisions on. Some just wish someone would simply "HIDE THE EVIDENCE!" 
Some live in a psychological and cultural strait jacket, held by upbringing and family pressures, which makes them envious of those who are not so bound .
Some ( thankfully) love that lifestyle . I'm glad they do. It would be crowded out her if they didn't.
As Arthur Black wrote, "Envy is an admission that you have made a screwup of your life. When people who are content with their own lives, see someone with a good thing going, they say "Great , more power to you". Its only those who are not content with their own lives, who envy. So should we let those who admit they have screwed up, call the shots for the rest of us? Would that make life better for all if us? 
I think not!


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## Pearson796 (Dec 21, 2013)

Hey guys, I hate to see people arguing and bashing each other over a differing opinion. 

I'm in the low income bracket and I can't afford all this fancy stuff you guys are talking about. I think others might be like me too, a lot of others who live on Sailboats full time. 

What might or has to work for one person might not work for everyone else. 

I don't think arguing is going to change anyone's mind. I know that if I had more money, I would definitely consider a better source of keeping my boat warm.


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## Total Chaos (Jan 28, 2014)

I for one vote for Hydronic heat... Love it. Hot water, engine pre-heat, unlimited heat zones (this is awesome for lager boats) Are they complex? not really. A flash boiler heats fluid, a circ pump moves the water around the boat through air handlers in a big loop, thermostats are wired to the registers, an aux heat exchanger can draw heat into the loop from the engine as well as preheat the engine. The system sips fuel, draws very little power and will last a very, very long time with little maintenance outside of a filter change now and again.

Now for the downside... Having installed a hydronic system I can tell you even though the consept is basic, be prepared for about 80-100 hrs of work.... If you have someone install the whole thing for you prepare for a $15-18K bill.

I have a freind who burns wood.... I think its great, not for but a nice heat source, wouldn't work to well in my boat, evening out the heat would be near impossible.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

Total Chaos said:


> I for one vote for Hydronic heat... Love it. Hot water, engine pre-heat, unlimited heat zones (this is awesome for lager boats) Are they complex? not really. A flash boiler heats fluid, a circ pump moves the water around the boat through air handlers in a big loop, thermostats are wired to the registers, an aux heat exchanger can draw heat into the loop from the engine as well as preheat the engine. The system sips fuel, draws very little power and will last a very, very long time with little maintenance outside of a filter change now and again.
> 
> Now for the downside... Having installed a hydronic system I can tell you even though the consept is basic, be prepared for about 80-100 hrs of work.... If you have someone install the whole thing for you prepare for a $15-18K bill.
> 
> I have a freind who burns wood.... I think its great, not for but a nice heat source, wouldn't work to well in my boat, evening out the heat would be near impossible.


Nothing evens out the heat like a good layer of insulation. My wood stove is along side my companion way ,but the forepeak is as toasty as I want it. It definitely wouldn't be in an uninsulated boat.
A friend with a centre cockpit boat asked about getting the heat to the aft cabin. I suggested a computer fan in a plastic pipe, sucking air from the aft cabin would work , trying to force warm air aft wouldn't, as it would cool in the pipe before it got there.


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