# Last Night at the Harvard Club



## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

This "new thread" is actually sort of a phase II from S/V Triumph. You might want to review that thread in order to understand the background to this one.

My wife and I exchanged emails this morning, related to that "event" roughly 1000 miles between Boston and the Azore Islands this past July 27th, as we lost our vessel the Triumph:
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Boy, it is so rough to meet up with a group of sailors  I expected the initial rehashing of the 'story', but I couldn't get anyone off of it. After going through the "what you should have done..." the group I was talking to quickly moved to the "thank god you're still alive..." Then, I tried to change the subject by asking about their boats. That garnered a quick "Cape Dory, etc." then back to survival stories. I started crying at one point when Donna kept recounting stories of people who had fallen overboard and were either lost at sea or drowned or had a heart attack in the Gulf Stream. This was embellished liberally with "it's a wonder Doug survived. Don't know how that happened..." Okay, so now I'm crying here at my desk. Do people honestly think this helps? Or are they just ghouls? Which is my conclusion. I know you were the one that was in the water the longest and faced death the closest, but, whether you believe it or not, I don't know how I could have gone on without you. You are my soulmate and the love of my life. Without you, everything is meaningless... And I wish to hell people would quit deliberating over how close I came to losing you... I hate them. Love you.


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

Oh boy.... you are such a "woman". 

I would rather look at the amazement that I somehow survived as a cause of great relief and happiness.
Whenever I allow myself to dwell on the shear terror and surety that I was lost, I come back out of that zone with the happiness that instead, I did "make it" to a life buoy, and back to my life with you.

And, from our experience, together we can learn from this. When I continually state: "this was the worst mistake of my life", that is not to heap blame or bad feeling upon either of us, it is to share something clearly learned from this.

That is not to never venture out again; it is to trust in our own abilities, resources, and the basic strength of our vessel before we ask for "assistance" ever again. Once I placed our lives in the hands of the Kim Jacob, as we have learned, we were in a much less secure position, with the associated much greater probability of total loss. 

As I have also experienced with my "discussions" on the Sailnet blog, many / most people, are eager to rationalize how this couldn't or wouldn't happen to them because they would have done such and such, differently. I think this is a self serving protection and shield from their inner fear of what could happen, to regain their own security that it won't happen to them.

The majority of the people last night, as with any group of "sailors", all have those same inner fears. It is not natural nor healthy to stoke those fears, rather is is natural to resolve them, in as healthy a manner as possible; which is to both learn from others' mistakes, and to believe in oneself enough to still set sail again.

I made many mistakes on July 26th & the 27th, which destroyed our vessel, and placed both of us in harms way.
Even my first reaction was to ERRONEOUSLY blame you.... i.e., anyone / anything but me. 
That is clearly wrong, and yet, we must learn from this if we ever plan to try again. Whether it be to cross an ocean, or even go out for the day, we have to do our best in preparedness, of the ship, all of her equipment, but most importantly, ourselves. 

It takes a certain personal strength and drive to not give up the ship; and now we know the consequences of arriving at that decision too easily / carelessly. 

The Triumph wore us down to the point that we therefore accepted the erroneous opportunity to push the "easy" button. Now we know it can be much worse to push that button, than to just suck it up and deal with the RELATIVELY minor issues. Relative to the consequences of pushing that button.

I did come closest to being killed, so perhaps it is appropriate that I see what is to be learned the clearest.

I truly thank God that I was not lost, and that the resulting weight and pain of that was not placed on your shoulders.
We avoided that bullet, though it did come very, very close to us. But, we avoided that bullet, after all the other equipement / resources available were either not properly used, or appllied, which is a testament to what did save us in the end. Ourselves. And from that we should learn to trust what we have learned is really the strongest part of everything we have, again, ourselves.

Everyone else who will ever hear our story, like the people last night, will likewise resolve within themselves what they need to in order for them to set sail again. I think this is all part of the funny little 2 legged creatures called human beings. 

And all of that brings us to the point that we are shopping for another sailboat. WOW, we are funny creatures.

All my love,
Doug


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Doug, thanks for sharing those emails. I'm very glad to see you guys being drawn together through all this.

And it's good to see you back dude.

(PS - this really should be in the sailing section - not OT. It's definitely relevant.)


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

To Sailnet,

Last night, as was referenced in the title of this thread, we attended a meeting, as guests, of a sailing club in Boston called "Cruise for Life" which is also known as the Bluewater Sailing Club. This meeting was held in the prestigious Harvard Club room at 1 Federal St. in downtown Boston.

The previous postings were the email exchange between Evelyn and myself this morning, as a personal review of last night; and as you may imagine, of our experience this past July in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean.

I thought that I should share that exchange with you folks, though it was a very private discussion, in order to better conclude the S/V Triumph thread which is on this Sailnet site. Or, perhaps, to re-open that discussion, in a healthier manner.

I say healthier, because as you may note, that thread was "closed" by the moderators after I became somewhat hostile with some posters, who relentlessly focused upon the "you should have done this or that" concept.

FYI, I will be the featured speaker at a meeting of the Pelagic Sailing Club, again, in Boston on May 24th this year, wherein I will provide an overview of the entire event which we survived. It is open to the public, and a large attendence is expected.

There will be a question and answer period after the initial speech.

My wife and I are still "shopping" for a replacement sailboat of our lost Triumph. We are travelling to California next weekend, to view / survey a number of fine vessels.

Thank you,
Doug


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

Thank you Smack Daddy! Good to be "back".

Sorry about the erroneous categorization of this thread; as it was, it took me quite a while to figure out how to post a new thread.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

Doug
Thank you for posting. I agree totally that people do try to hide their own fears in discussions such as yours. Crossing oceans is a scary business and bad stuff can happen. I think Nietzsche certainly had it right and you will be (much) stronger for your experience.

Good luck with your boat search. Any particular reason why you are looking in California? I always had the impression the boats were more expensive on the west coast.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

DougSabbag said:


> Thank you Smack Daddy! Good to be "back".
> 
> Sorry about the erroneous categorization of this thread; as it was, it took me quite a while to figure out how to post a new thread.


No worries. Hopefully the mods will move it.


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

killarney_sailor said:


> Doug
> Thank you for posting. I agree totally that people do try to hide their own fears in discussions such as yours. Crossing oceans is a scary business and bad stuff can happen. I think Nietzsche certainly had it right and you will be (much) stronger for your experience.
> 
> Good luck with your boat search. Any particular reason why you are looking in California? I always had the impression the boats were more expensive on the west coast.


Well, our search has evolved from the Amels to the Taiwanese boats, i.e., the Formosas, Mikelsons, Hudsons, and even the Cheoy Lees. Going through the internet listings, the ones we're seeing of those, on the West Coast, appear to be in better condition, and there are more of them on that coast.

Though the logistics of bringing one from there to Boston, really sucks. So, though our first shopping trip is to Southern Cal., that will be followed by a trip to Texas, where we will see 1, and then drive to see a few more along the Gulf, eventually making it to the panhandle of Florida.

We really like the solid teak / mahogany interiors vs. the veneered interiors of so many others. The solid wood can be sanded and repaired so much better than bothering with the veneered wood. And, the pilot house cockpits provide some advantages which we like a lot, both pragmatically for line of sight steering, and the associated interior space that allows.

As far as the prices of these boats, actually, for the condition as we see from the pictures, the prices are lower on the West coast for these boats than slightly worse condition examples nearer to us.

There are a couple much nearer to us, which we've not been successful in even getting replies from the posted "agents" as to their availability! Which is very frustrating.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

smackdaddy said:


> No worries. Hopefully the mods will move it.


Done...


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

As an over view of our search for a replacement of the Triumph, this is a message I recently sent to someone which provides a pretty good view of what we're looking for, and why:

Actually, we placed a bid on a 2001 33.7 Beneteau a few weeks ago, which was a salvage sale. The mast was broken right where it meets the deck. Though we were only interested in her for re-sale given that she was so relatively new, and I could fix the mast fairly easily. Our bid of $18K was outbid, and we let it go at that.

While surveying that Beneteau, we were impressed with some of the basic design strengths, while not so impressed with the cabin wood work. It was all that sort of cheap wood work, which has become the "standard" of so many of todays' boats.

Wherein we are "liveaboards" we want our home to be as comfortable as possible, with the sailing speed taking a back seat to the quality of our life at the dock, living inside this vessel.

I can't write those words without a little embarrassment, especially amongst "sailors", and have taken a good amount of derision at our installation of granite counters in the Triumph; as you may have read. 

So, with all of that in mind, that is why we are now focused on those Taiwanese boats. Their interior cabin space is quite spacious, the woodwork is high enough quality to warrant restoration, and the sweeping decks are something I would love.

The prices are right around $100K, plus or minus $20K, which is great too!

We also looked at the Bavaria sailboats. We found late model (2003 - 2005) 50 - 55 footers, in the price range of $135K, which was quite enticing. But, again, when we got to look at an interior, we were not very impressed with the wood work quality, and then understood why their prices had plummetted so much from their original costs of $450K + 

There are so many good boats out there for reasonable prices, it is very hard to focus the shopping effort. And that is a real problem, if you want to buy a boat ASAP.

So, while occasionally veering off into looking at a Herreschoff, (sp?) or whatever, it helps us a lot in this process to first decide which brand to buy, and then be able to just focus on those.

Otherwise, we could easily be just "looking" for years.

I spent almost 10 years before finally pulling the trigger in 2000, and buying the Gulfstar 50 ketch I named the Triumph. We surely can't wait that long again.

Thank you very much for your input, and in case any of you happen to run across a boat for sale with the sort of interior quality I am talking about, in the $100K price range, I sure would love to hear about her!
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Thank you!
Doug


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

Faster said:


> Done...


Thank you very much! I apologize for having mis-categorized this in the first place!

It is good to be amongst the sailing / sailors, where we would like to believe we "belong".


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## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

Doug is back? Wholly SHIITE!

Welcome back man!


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

LandLocked66c said:


> Doug is back? Wholly SHIITE!
> 
> Welcome back man!


Thank you LandLocked!

We're going to California next weekend to look at some Taiwanese sailboats there, so that we can get back to the blow boats ASAP. 

But, in the mean time: Go Patriots!


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## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

DougSabbag said:


> But, in the mean time: Go Patriots!


Brady put on a clinic for Baby Tebow! I enjoyed that win immensely!


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

Good to see you Doug.

You are the resident expert on certain things. The forum is better for you being here.

Regards,
Brad


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

LandLocked66c said:


> Brady put on a clinic for Baby Tebow! I enjoyed that win immensely!


Turned out that Tebow was really injured in the third quarter, but played on!
Perhaps he has the spirit of a sailor! 

Nevertheless, Brady & Co., seriously ended their season, and sadly that game wasn't that "exciting".

Tomorrow should be very interesting, from a Patriots' fans point of view, we're on pins and needles wondering how this will turn out. Not only are they going to the SuperBowl, but if they can beat the Ravens, then there really is a very good chance they will win the SuperBowl.

But, more importantly..... should we buy a Taiwanese sailboat? 

We're seeing them for around $100K, plus or minus $20K, in varying conditions. But, I've never SAILED one!? Having sailed that Gulfstar, for over 10 years, I suppose it won't take too much to satisfy me. 

So, relative to the Triumph, I will be very curious to experience a Formosa or Hudson, or Force 50... under full sail, with light winds, and with strong winds, and see how she deals with it.

Will they sail fairly similarly, or will there be any appreciable differences; and what will those differences be??

Have you (anyone) sailed any of those boats? And sailed a Gulfstar 50 ketch? I would love to hear peoples' thoughts / experiences who have sailed both.


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

Bene505 said:


> Good to see you Doug.
> 
> You are the resident expert on certain things. The forum is better for you being here.
> 
> ...


Thank you Brad! If there is anything I can share, any specific highlights from my experience(s), which could be best used by others, they would be:

1. Really try to have your boat READY to do whatever long cruise you might be planning, such that you won't be worn down by daily / hourly "issues". Or else don't leave the dock until you really have addressed the various weak links in your systems.

Before we left Boston, we had already burnt ourselves out addressing larger issues, for instance I rebuilt about 7 feet of the deck, by removing the soggy wood, replacing it, then re-fiberglassing / gel coating that whole area. And I only finished that about 1 day before we left.

Yes, we had spent years addressing zillions of other big and small issues, but there still were some things left - all of which reared their ugly heads while out to sea. And a small issue, at the dock, is a big issue out to sea.
The biggest "cost" is that addressing even the smallest of these things while out to sea, stresses the crew 10 X as much.

The ocean / weather will already provide plenty of surprises requiring actions and efforts to adjust to, you sure don't also need to be fixing something while a storm is bearing down on you.

2. Tune your rig.  What I had no knowledge of was that it HAS to be "dynamically tuned". When we stepped our main mast about 10 months before we headed East, without having dynamically tuned it after that, in effect, I did a lot more damage to our boat than if I hadn't stepped it at all.

We had 2 completely different rigger "companies" providing our out and in needs, but neither one mentioned the need to dynamically tune the rig.
One rigger was from West Marine, and the other was the best one in Fort Lauderdale: Nance & Underwood. Both had / have decades of experience and seemed to know their stuff. Which I still don't question; but, perhaps I didn't ask the right question, or something, but now I know, and am therefore sharing the mantra: Dynamically tune your rig.

Now I seriously doubt any of this is really new or unique info to many of you sailors, but what might make me the "resident expert" here, is what happens when you don't do these things, and whatever else was discussed on the original S/V Triumph thread.

If nothing else, I am the luckiest bastard here, who did so many things wrong, and yet by a very slim last minute chance, ended up alive.
For that, I will accept the "resident expert" moniker.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

DougSabbag said:


> But, more importantly..... should we buy a Taiwanese sailboat?
> 
> We're seeing them for around $100K, plus or minus $20K, in varying conditions. But, I've never SAILED one!? Having sailed that Gulfstar, for over 10 years, I suppose it won't take too much to satisfy me.
> 
> ...


Well, I'll offer the same opinion I did back in Post #567 of the other thread...

I have racked up a considerable number of miles delivering Island Trader 51s, probably less than 1% of them under working sails alone... I'll leave it to you to deduce the likely reason for that... (grin)

Suffice it to say, sailing a Formosa/Hudson/Force 50 in light airs is unlikely to produce a rewarding sailing experience, for most... Furthermore, if you did locate one on the West Coast and wanted to bring it back East, they are not a particularly weatherly boat close-hauled, and beating back out of the Caribbean from the Canal could be a very arduous trip...

Again, if you are serious about looking for a Taiwanese boat of that vintage, I'd strongly suggest you speak to Bob Perry, and consider using his consulting service... I doubt anyone knows more about the variety of boats and the quality produced by various yards in Taiwan during those years than Bob does, and availing yourself of such knowledge could be money very well spent...


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

JonEisberg said:


> Again, if you are serious about looking for a Taiwanese boat of that vintage, I'd strongly suggest you speak to Bob Perry, and consider using his consulting service...


Or at least buy his book:
Amazon.com: Yacht Design According to Perry: My Boats and What Shaped Them (9780071465571): Robert Perry: Books


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

So I gotta know. It seems like your objective is to be the "expertest". That's kinda weird.



JonEisberg said:


> Well, I'll offer the same opinion I did back in Post #567 of the other thread...
> 
> I have racked up a considerable number of miles delivering Island Trader 51s, probably less than 1% of them under working sails alone... I'll leave it to you to deduce the likely reason for that... (grin)
> 
> ...


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Doug,

I'm glad to see that you are back, and that my offer to get you involved with the Pelagic sailing club has been followed up on! 

RE your next boat: May I suggest a Shannon?


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## BostonSailor (Sep 14, 2010)

Thanks for the tip on your presentation at the Pelagic club meeting in May. Looking forward to hearing more and meeting a local Sailnet'er


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## rgscpat (Aug 1, 2010)

Good luck with the boat search -- hope it's fun. I think people mean well and just don't know what to say and that it's time to move on... and they may have met people who had a big experience and didn't move on. Is Sea Hag on this board to talk about her Leaky Teaky?


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

Well good luck Doug, and I wish you the best of luck in your search and I hope it all works out for you as you desire - hopefully the old thread and past conflicts can be left back in 2011, and we can _all_ start fresh for the new year 2012 with a clean slate.

Again, best of luck!


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

Those 3 boats are all dogs. A 50 footer for 100K? There goes a few more years addressing a zillion small and big things. Best you get a smaller boat that actually sails so you can address those issues while sailing locally, and not waiting to be offshore to find them out.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> So I gotta know. It seems like your objective is to be the "expertest". That's kinda weird.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, Doug solicited opinions about the sailing qualities of a particular 50' design, one with which I just happen to be quite familiar... So, I simply offered mine...

If that seems "kinda weird", so be it...


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## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

Who let Smack off his leash???


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Smack, what ever came of trying to get open water boat to boat rescue incorporated into safety training?


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Minnewaska said:


> Smack, what ever came of trying to get open water boat to boat rescue incorporated into safety training?


Still working it. I've gotten some great input from some big hitters, have written an article that I'm shopping for publishing right now, and have also taken a pass at presentation content for a Safety at Sea seminar session.

It looks like I'll attend the SAS seminar in March at the New York Yacht Club to run everything by Trossbach and Jobson. We'll see what they say.

I'll let you know when I know more.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Welcome back Doug. 


I'm not surprised that all the yachties wanted to talk with y'all about was the disaster. I've only ever met one person who has swum from a lifeboat to a freighter (you belong to a small fraternity my friend). He was a doctor that I worked briefly with. What did I do when he told me that he sunk his boat offshore and was rescued by a tanker? I asked him when and where I could meet him for the story and what the price was. It happened to be 4AM in the ER (and the price was coffee) as he was getting off shift, so I got up at 3AM to hear the story.

Why did I do that, when most other yachtie's stories I could take or leave? Because I'm obsessed with the possibility of things going wrong. We all are. 

How many threads on sailnet are about safety gear, the best boat for offshore storms, storm tactics, drogues vs para-anchors etc etc etc.... Few threads on sailnet are about the perfect margarita recipe. Why? Because we're all obsessed with the big, scary, looming "What IF?" 

Well "What IF" rarely happens, so we are left to obsess about it in the absence of first hand knowledge. "What IF" actually did happen to you, so everybody wants to hear all about it, and get first hand answers about their own personal fears from the oracle himself. 

It's a pity that we're all so disaster obsessed, but we are. I think it's a cultural thing of our time. Too much TV and sensational news I supect. We're so much more obsessed and scared of the remotely possible events, like airplane crashes, terrorism, or rare plagues (but never real risk like high cholesterol or heavy car traffic) that it impedes our ability to enjoy life I fear. 

In any case, to a sailor, you are like a 9/11 twin towers survivor is to an office drone. Everybody will want to hear your story, and everybody will want YOU to address THEIR version of what they fear most. Unless you want to keep the fact that you did have that experience quiet, you're going to run into the Harvard Club experience a lot. 

I wish you well in your boat search. I hope that even though you lost your beloved Triumph, you can still enjoy the thrill and possibility of searching for, and falling in love with another boat again. 

MedSailor


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

davidpm said:


> Or at least buy his book:
> Amazon.com: Yacht Design According to Perry: My Boats and What Shaped Them (9780071465571): Robert Perry: Books


Thank you David! Perhaps my wife can download that onto her Kindle!

It would make good / valuable reading while we're flying to California this weekend.

Thanks again!


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

eherlihy said:


> Doug,
> 
> I'm glad to see that you are back, and that my offer to get you involved with the Pelagic sailing club has been followed up on!
> 
> RE your next boat: May I suggest a Shannon?


Thank you.

We went aboard a Shannon at a Fort Lauderdale Boat Show a couple years ago, and were very impressed with their quality.

But, from what we've found, they are rather expensive, and we didn't see any large enough to accomodate our liveaboard / chartering needs.

As much as many people can enjoy living aboard high 30 - mid 40 foot sailboats, after 11 years on a Gulfstar 50, we are really looking forward to a more spacious interior and deck space.

And, on the monetary issues, we want to be aboard a sailboat ASAP, instead of working for a couple of years to save up more hundreds of thousands of dollars, and we would rather not have a loan to pay.

So..... as much as we know there are better boats, we're sort of forced toward the Taiwanese boats, built in the 1980s, which at least offer the spaciousness we're looking forward to, and they generally have solid wood interiors which can be restored. As opposed to the veneered interiors which aren't worthy or able to be sanded and varnished to restore their interiors.

If on the other hand you know of a 50 + foot Shannon, for sale at a price well under $200K, (our upper limit is about $150K), we sure would be interested. Their interior quality clearly supports restoration, but, again, I haven't seen any 50 + footers. I am just not aware of that size Shannons existing....?

We are also focused on ketches! Are there any Shannons which are ketch rigged?

And, just to further complicate the issues, either a pilot house cockpit or center cockpit configuration is also high on our list of requirements, again, because these allow the interior space, (especially the aft cabin) to be "spacious", and they allow very good "from the cockpit" single handling of the rigging and line of sight steering, especially for a short guy like me.... 


All of this keeps bringing us back to the 1980s Taiwanese boats; but we sure are "open" to another brand which meets these requirements.

1. Spacious interior / pilot house or center cockpit
2. Price $150K or less
3. High quality wood work
4. Ketch rigged
5. Sweeping deck would also be welcomed, vs. those (like the Gulfstar) whose cabin tops sticks out from the deck.

Of course, we value a lot of other items like good engines with low hours with 120 HP or more, bow thruster, full keel(?), furling main / mizzen, at least 2 heads / room for a washer & dryer, stall shower, B&G equipment, auto helm, radar.... then such extravagances as forward seeing sonar, granite / marble counters  electric toilets, watermaker, generator, etc.

So, "shopping" for this, within our budget is challenging.


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

BostonSailor said:


> Thanks for the tip on your presentation at the Pelagic club meeting in May. Looking forward to hearing more and meeting a local Sailnet'er


I'm putting together a Power Point presentation, with lots of pictures! I hope / trust that my "story" will be entertaining and perhaps might even offer some valuable things to think about when making a long passage for "pleasure" amongst a family setting.

I will look forward to meeting you too!


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

MedSailor said:


> Welcome back Doug.
> 
> I'm not surprised that all the yachties wanted to talk with y'all about was the disaster. I've only ever met one person who has swum from a lifeboat to a freighter (you belong to a small fraternity my friend). He was a doctor that I worked briefly with. What did I do when he told me that he sunk his boat offshore and was rescued by a tanker? I asked him when and where I could meet him for the story and what the price was. It happened to be 4AM in the ER (and the price was coffee) as he was getting off shift, so I got up at 3AM to hear the story.
> 
> ...


Lets' start with Thank You for that thoughtful comment! I do appreciate the consideration which inspired your words. And, I surely can't argue that what you said is absolutely acurate.

What I want to result from this is not to hide or keep this all to myself. Evelyn is more along those lines than I have ever been, but time should resolve that, theoretically.

I do want to be useful toward any improvement(s) which might be possible of deep sea rescues. The pure entertainment aspect of our story is not my goal. Though I well understand, as you also outlined, the lure of this to the majority of people. Even people without any marine experience are drawn to the stories of near death experiences. And that's just how it is.

In order to effect any improvements, I strongly suspect, I somewhat have to parlay the entertainment lure, toward the issues which could be improved.

You said at the beginning of your comment that a Dr. swam from a lifeboat to a freighter: "I've only ever met one person who has swum from a lifeboat to a freighter...."
Well, I'm not sure what you might have meant to specifically describe there, because I doubt he actually swam FROM a LIFEBOAT...?

But, the inclusion of a lifeboat into the rescue process would have been greatly appreciated by me.

Because I did not swim from a lifeboat to a tanker, or from the water to a lifeboat.
I swam from a trashed Gulfstar to a tanker; and in the last possible second, after over 3 hours of sinking below the waves, and miraculously rising into the air, again and again and again, I managed to make it to a life bouy, thrown from that tanker, and was pulled up to their deck from that.

The lifeboat(s) never left the deck.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Good to hear from you again Doug. Unfortunately, voyages like yours grabs everybody’s attention whereas my (uneventful) crossing from Las Palmas to Grenada last December sparked just passing interest. When you go to your next talk, just put on your chain mail shark suit on and enjoy the feeding frenzy. I’m assuming that you are going to Southern California for your boat search. If you find should yourself up in the San Francisco area, let me know as I’d love to buy you a drink at the bar. One of my friends has a Taswell 49 which he loves and is absolutely gorgeous, but he will be the first to admit, is not the fastest boat in the marina.


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

GeorgeB said:


> Good to hear from you again Doug. Unfortunately, voyages like yours grabs everybody's attention whereas my (uneventful) crossing from Las Palmas to Grenada last December sparked just passing interest. When you go to your next talk, just put on your chain mail shark suit on and enjoy the feeding frenzy. I'm assuming that you are going to Southern California for your boat search. If you find should yourself up in the San Francisco area, let me know as I'd love to buy you a drink at the bar. One of my friends has a Taswell 49 which he loves and is absolutely gorgeous, but he will be the first to admit, is not the fastest boat in the marina.


Thank you George! I'll take an "uneventful" cruise any day over the one we had. 

Yes, we're landing at Long Beach, then visiting a few S. Cal., marinas.
Sadly, we won't be making it up to SF. Though I lived in that area throughout the 1980s! First Alameda, then up in Marin County.

I used to love to sail in that Bay! Quite challenging, always.

Considering we were in a Gulfstar 50 for 11 years, and now we're looking at the Taiwanese 50s, speed is surely not very high in our criteria. 
We are liveaboards, so comfort is much higher, with high quality wood to keep me busy restoring, a sweeping deck, a center or pilot house cockpit, a large aft cabin a spacious main salon, with a good engine and rigg....
Oh, not to mention a stall shower, washer & dryer and granite counters. 

That last "requirement" is really an homage to a lot of comments in the S/V Triumph thread.


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

DougSabbag said:


> Thank you David! Perhaps my wife can download that onto her Kindle!
> 
> It would make good / valuable reading while we're flying to California this weekend.
> 
> Thanks again!


OK, to all the Perry supporters, Evelyn downloaded his book to her Kindle and I will be happily reading it while on the plane to look at the various Taiwanese boats in Cal.

Thank you for the advice!


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

DougSabbag said:


> Lets' start with Thank You for that thoughtful comment! I do appreciate the consideration which inspired your words. And, I surely can't argue that what you said is absolutely acurate.
> 
> What I want to result from this is not to hide or keep this all to myself. Evelyn is more along those lines than I have ever been, but time should resolve that, theoretically.
> 
> ...


Doug,

Just to clarify, I wasn't trying to say that everyone wants to talk to you for their entertainment. I believe everyone wants to talk to you because you can answer questions that relate to their deep seeded fears.

As for my ER doctor acquaintance, I should have been more precise with my language. Indeed it was a _liferaft_ that he swam from, not a _lifeboat._. I'll relate the short version of his story here:

He was crossing the pacific single-handed to Hawaii on a well found steel sailboat (can't recall the rig or specifics). During the night he felt a sudden thump and rushed on deck. He couldn't see anything despite good lighting but he figured he had hit something. Quickly he realised he was taking on water fast. He had "several" bilge pumps and an engine driven pump but quickly was loosing ground with the water. It was about 2hours of searching for the leak (which he underscores is very hard to do once there is water IN the bilge) when he realized that he was going to have to abandon ship.

He was about 2-3 days sail from Hawaii and he readied his gear and raft, activated his epirb and continued trying to find/fix the leak. He truely did _step up_ to his life raft when the decks were awash.

After a couple hours a C-130 came overhead and he radioed them by VHF. They told him that a ship was being re-directed to him and should be there soon. He waited in the raft for about 18hrs and the ship arrived. It had a hell of a time finding him in 6-8ft seas but the C-130 returned and was able to relay radio messages. For some reason he wasn't able to radio the ship directly, but he could radio the Coast Guard C-130 and they could relay.

The plan was to have the ship maneuver to hit his raft. The plan was to hit him forward of amidships of the freighter and a jacob's ladder was at or just aft of amidships. This is the part when he got scared as he realized that if the ship ran him over, he was toast, and if he contacted after the ladder, he would be in the prop and would be shark-kibble.

As the ship drew near, since he was unable to maneuver the inflatable raft, he took a gamble that he had to get to the jacob's ladder and swam from his raft to the ship, aiming to contact the hull about 1/3 from the bow, which he did. He slid along it until the ladder reached him, and climbed up. He said he wasn't scared during the sinking, or in the raft, but when he had to leave the raft and swim to the ship, he wasn't sure he would make it.

He did make it, and is still sailing. Never figured out what hit him, but it just goes to show that sometimes even the best preps (steel boat and engine-driven pump) can't stave off disaster. Sounds like his handheld VHF and Epirbs were lifesavers.

MedSailor

PS I wonder how much better off he would be with a maneuverable life-boat like the Portland Pudgy. Seems like you could intercept a nearly stationary ship under your own power, and multiple attempts could be made.


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

MedSailor said:


> Doug,
> 
> Just to clarify, I wasn't trying to say that everyone wants to talk to you for their entertainment. I believe everyone wants to talk to you because you can answer questions that relate to their deep seeded fears.
> 
> ...


MedSailor!

I wasn't referring to you when I inidicated many people are entertained by the stories of people in harms' way. It is a generic / human characteristic well documented, for instance by the spectators at car races, and many likewise dangerous sports.

And thank you for the story of your friend! I can really associate with his trepidation / anxiety at leaving the raft to swim to the ladder of the rescue boat. At least they had a ladder hanging down. The Kim Jacob did not.

But, I sure would be scared sh_tless swimming right up to the freighter, knowing that overshooting the target ladder, would be quite disasterous.

Swimming around these freighters / tankers is not a comfortable activity, but is only inspired when all else has failed.

As much as I agree that ideally his raft would have had its' own power, but the other alternative would have been if the freighter would deploy a lifeboat to pick him up. Which I might assume they had at least one of.

I have been wondering if perhaps some AMVER participant training of how to use their lifeboats, and how to bring them to their own stern and tow them if there is an issue with retrieving them using the deployment cables.
Coupled with the establishment of a *Sea Rescue Reward Fund*, wherein sailors / civilians contribute, much like to AAA or SeaTow, to a central fund which pays any merchant marines who conduct a lifeboat deployment and retrieve any sailors, a substantial, i.e., $5000.? reward.

Between the training and the reward, I would think a lot of their hesitation to deploy what would clearly greatly improve the rescue / transfer process: their lifeboat(s), would be resolved.

Just a thought.......


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## dmcMaine (Sep 1, 2010)

Doug...

Probably not even close to what you're looking for. But I saw this on craig's list and thought of you...

47 Foot Ketch


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

dmcMaine said:


> Doug...
> 
> Probably not even close to what you're looking for. But I saw this on craig's list and thought of you...
> 
> 47 Foot Ketch


Thank you very much!


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

DougSabbag said:


> Thank you.
> 
> We went aboard a Shannon at a Fort Lauderdale Boat Show a couple years ago, and were very impressed with their quality.
> 
> ...


Look here: http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/boatMergedDetails.jsp?boat_id=2294456&ybw=&units=Feet&currency=USD&access=Public&listing_id=50186&url=


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

Well, so far, in our boat shopping mission, we have travelled to Long Beach, Sab Diego, Kemah TX, and New Orleans. We have seen many Formosa 51s, Hudsons, and the other Taiwanese ketches on our radar. We even looked at the S/V Wanderer which was used in the sailing scenes of the Captain Ron movie. But, what we have learned is that even in this "economy", you still only get what you pay for. Which applies here in that these boats were asking anywhere from $75K to $125K, and all were absolutely beat.

Not to mention that most of these happened to not have the actual pilot house cockpit which we wanted in order to have the spacious aft cabin we wanted even more.

So, we regrouped, and upped our budget to $200K, and have found THE perfect boat for us. The *Ta Chiao CT 54 ketch*.

Now, from what we have learned, these vary substantially from boat to boat, depending upon how much involvement there was during the original build process by the initial owner / customer.

Some people have tried to draw a line in the sand and say that pre 1981 TC 54s are "Leeky Teekys", but some further detective work leads back to the amount of owner involvement with the build process being the real delineator between a well built, and a not so well built TC 54.

We have found about a half a dozen of these boats for sale; and they are scattered from the VIs to Europe. And all of them are roughly in the $250K asking price range.
So, apparently we have to go look at all of them to pick one, then we can focus on that one to try to negotiate as far down as possible.

IF, by any chance, any of you people happen to know of a Ta Chiao CT 54 ketch for sale, even if she has a blown engine, I would REALLY APPRECIATE the reference!

THANK YOU!
Doug


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## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

This one's only 195 euro...

Ta Chiao CT 54 Luxury Ketch for sale in South Oban, Argyll


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

That IS an excellent example of a CT 54! Thank you LandLocked.

While looking for those, I happened upon this:

2012 53' Pavel Shaposhnikov Schooner (Google on them!)

Apparently, this Ukrainian boat yard will build a 53 foot schooner for you for $145K!?

Has any body heard about these people? When you read up on them, they will build many different boat designs for you. 

So we're very intrigued! A 2012 bran new 53 footer for under $150K.... and did you see the pictures? This is not a stripped hull. Well, I'll have to contact them and see what the deal really is......


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## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

So it would be a wood hull? Interesting.

Have you consulted with Bob Perry yet, he's involved in quite a few builds right now.


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

Land locked:

Well, the concept of the Ukrainian boat yard was a momentary voyage down a tributary; but, back on the proper course, we are focused on the Ta Chiao CT 54 or 56 boats.

Here is a CT 56, in Florida, which we are especially interested in:

1986 Ta Chiao CT-56 World cruiser Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

I wonder what I would ask Mr. Perry which would be of value to this search?


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## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

DougSabbag said:


> Land locked:
> 
> Well, the concept of the Ukrainian boat yard was a momentary voyage down a tributary; but, back on the proper course, we are focused on the Ta Chiao CT 54 or 56 boats.
> 
> ...


Not totally sure, but he is a respected designer that works with a bunch of yards. Maybe you could build through him and arrive at an american built boat built to your specs. Wouldn't hurt asking, more information is never a bad thing.

I like the Captain Ron thing that you are going for!


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

Landlocked,

I recently read Perrys' book; great reading! But, to pay for a new build, with Perry designing her, would clearly cost well over our $200K budget!
Though there might be the possibility of having that Ukranian yard build her at their greatly lowered prices.... so that is an interesting concept.
I would still be very surprised if the total cost would be below $200K, and have all the required equipment, and quailty of wood we want.

The CT 56, in St. Augustine (see link previously posted), is not the Captain Ron boat. That was a Formosa 51, named the "Wanderer", and she is in Kemah, Texas. Though the CT 56 is another Taiwanese built boat, and likewise designed by Perry.

I just spoke with the broker, and he said she has the "original" standing and running rigging, deck, and sails. So, original from 1986, means: beat.

So.... with all those negatives, there is clearly enough to negotiate the price down with, toward our top budget amount of $200K.

Now I need to look at her to learn how much else is beat; and whether or not we really want this particular one, or not.


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## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

DougSabbag said:


> Landlocked,
> 
> I recently read Perrys' book; great reading! But, to pay for a new build, with Perry designing her, would clearly cost well over our $200K budget!
> Though there might be the possibility of having that Ukranian yard build her at their greatly lowered prices.... so that is an interesting concept.
> ...


I figured it would be cost prohibitive, but with the state of things these days who knows... So how expensive would standing rigging be for a behemoth like that - I hate to even know!


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

It would be interesting to see how much custom boat you could get with $200k - my guess would be about 26'.


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

Well, I can only assume the standing rigging would cost around $35K, give or take. But, however much it might cost, would be used as a negotiating point. We need the price to move from $295K down to below $200K, which is about 1/3 of the whole. That is a long way down.....


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

killarney_sailor said:


> It would be interesting to see how much custom boat you could get with $200k - my guess would be about 26'.


For sure.... BUT, if you Google this: 2012 53' Pavel Shaposhnikov Schooner
You would see that that Ukranian boat builder, (who claims to have built boats for such notables as the Queen of England), is asking $145K to build that 53' Schooner! WOW!?


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

DougSabbag said:


> For sure.... BUT, if you Google this: 2012 53' Pavel Shaposhnikov Schooner
> You would see that that Ukranian boat builder, (who claims to have built boats for such notables as the Queen of England), is asking $145K to build that 53' Schooner! WOW!?


Hmmm, does he have any _PICTURES_ of any boats supposedly built to all those designs, or only _drawings_, or _CAD renderings_?

Have you looked at where Sumi, Ukraine, actually IS? There's usually a pretty good reason why most boatbuilders are located remotely close to the water. How eager would you be, own a 53' schooner built in a yard located, say, near the North Dakota-Montana state line?

Hope you're not seriously considering this... (grin)


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

JonEisberg said:


> Hmmm, does he have any _PICTURES_ of any boats supposedly built to all those designs, or only _drawings_, or _CAD renderings_?
> 
> Have you looked at where Sumi, Ukraine, actually IS? There's usually a pretty good reason why most boatbuilders are located remotely close to the water. How eager would you be, own a 53' schooner built in a yard located, say, near the North Dakota-Montana state line?
> 
> Hope you're not seriously considering this... (grin)


"he" is a boat yard with over 400 people working there; according to their information.

You know Jon, with this recent "doubting Thomas" reply of yours to a relatively friendly posting of a boat yard advertising attractive rates, you have again presented the sort of "attitude" which inspired me to clearly tell you to get lost in the prior thread we "conversed" on.

With comments like: "*Hope you're not seriously considering this... (grin*)" in one fell swoop, you not only denigrate the boat yard, but you also denigrate the person who is talking about it.

This attitude does not work well with people. Perhaps you should consider changing it to a more socially acceptable one. Or not, your choice.
But, I just thought you might be enlightened by this review, considering the freshness of your vile posting.

Try reading your post, as though you were the recipient, and then you might be able to "feel" your attitude and how it presents to people. Or not, your choice.

Sincerely,
Doug Sabbag


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

It is an interesting-looking boat. I wonder how they could built it for that price though. Certainly labor is going to quite a bit cheaper less in Ukraine, but can it be that much less. If you look at boats made in China where labor is cheaper than Ukraine they are cheaper but not that much cheaper. Also a wooden boat requires more skilled labor force than fg construction.

Worth checking out though to see if they have delivered any boats you could see. The pics show lovely interior finish but it sounds like a company that builds commercial craft which is something different. Also, having a 53' wooden boat to look after scares the crap out of me. Once considered a 28' gaff-cutter but returned to my sanity before doing anything silly.


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

killarney_sailor said:


> It is an interesting-looking boat. I wonder how they could built it for that price though. Certainly labor is going to quite a bit cheaper less in Ukraine, but can it be that much less. If you look at boats made in China where labor is cheaper than Ukraine they are cheaper but not that much cheaper. Also a wooden boat requires more skilled labor force than fg construction.
> 
> Worth checking out though to see if they have delivered any boats you could see. The pics show lovely interior finish but it sounds like a company that builds commercial craft which is something different. Also, having a 53' wooden boat to look after scares the crap out of me. Once considered a 28' gaff-cutter but returned to my sanity before doing anything silly.


Yes, I was quite intrigued by this yards' advertisement. Though as far as the wooden hull, on the specs I looked at for their schooner, it stated an epoxy over wood lay up.

Regardless, we're still only interested in the CT 54 or 56s. I was just amazed about this yards' existence and $145K price for a NEW 53' schooner!


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

DougSabbag said:


> Land locked:
> 
> Well, the concept of the Ukrainian boat yard was a momentary voyage down a tributary; but, back on the proper course, we are focused on the Ta Chiao CT 54 or 56 boats.
> 
> ...


I have a real soft spot for visuals like this beauty. I can understand why you are attracted to her. I always remind myself that these beauties take a lot of money and/or effort to keep that way. I'm sure you know that. Just keep lust and logic independent.

From reading the listing, I see some yellow flags. Lots of attention to aesthetics, but not much to systems. I see things like a compass and bilge pump listed (that always cracks me up). For the motor, all i see is a reported cruising speed, but no detail on engine, hrs, etc. A real pretty paint job is often intended to distract from the rest of the house.

Keep your eyes wide open and good luck.


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## Sea Diamond (Jan 2, 2012)

You're absolutely right about some of the design strengths of the Beneteau, most people don't know about the carbon fiber used in these. The design of our 2000 Oceanis 38 is so well thought out that everything seems to be right where it should be... winches, clutches, etc. Although the woodwork looks nice it but is clearly mahonogy veneer, and I find is less attractive in the newer models.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

DougSabbag said:


> "he" is a boat yard with over 400 people working there; according to their information.
> 
> You know Jon, with this recent "doubting Thomas" reply of yours to a relatively friendly posting of a boat yard advertising attractive rates, you have again presented the sort of "attitude" which inspired me to clearly tell you to get lost in the prior thread we "conversed" on.
> 
> ...


My apologies for the flip response, just sounded a bit too good to be true, to me... And, having more than a passing familiarity with some of the methods/practices of the Far Eastern boatbuilding industry in its infancy, I can only imagine what some of the goings-on might be in a place like the present day Ukraine...

OK, so I fired up the Google Machine, and one of the first things I came across was this thread over on Cruisers Forum... Some _interesting_ reading, to say the least...

Sorry, but I don't know any other way to put it: People are free to believe what they want to believe, of course... But, _after reading this thread_, I hope you're not still seriously considering this...

Ukraine Boat Builders Inquiry - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

But, hey - if you have no problem sending him a non-refundable deposit of $5K simply in order to obtain a list of detailed specifications (such as type of engine(s), and so on), I say Go For It! (grin)


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

Doug
Curious about what made you so interested in the CT 56? If it is aesthetics I can imagine it since they are beautiful. Just seems like an awfully big boat for a couple to cruise with. Heck, at times, my boat seems too big, but is much smaller 36K displacement vs 60k.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

I'd hardly rate Jon Eisberg's post as "vile". 

Seems to me that anyone has the right to doubt the veracity of claims by a yard to be able to deliver a 53' timber schooner for under USD$150,000, to employ between 30 and 400 people, to have a EU750,000 order book through to then end of 2011 and yet unable or at least unwilling to produce a single photograph of a completed or even semi completed boat. 

Maybe just maybe me and Eisberg are simply lacking in faith but Doug, if you are interested I have an Opera House going cheap ... 

Simply put - doubt and/or disagreement does not equal "vile".


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

Minnewaska said:


> I have a real soft spot for visuals like this beauty. I can understand why you are attracted to her. I always remind myself that these beauties take a lot of money and/or effort to keep that way. I'm sure you know that. Just keep lust and logic independent.
> 
> From reading the listing, I see some yellow flags. Lots of attention to aesthetics, but not much to systems. I see things like a compass and bilge pump listed (that always cracks me up). For the motor, all i see is a reported cruising speed, but no detail on engine, hrs, etc. A real pretty paint job is often intended to distract from the rest of the house.
> 
> Keep your eyes wide open and good luck.


Thanks Minnewaska.

As far as the lack of equipment, etc., it is those missing items which will work for us during the negotiations phase. And, I would just as soon buy the newest and what I want, myself.

You might have noticed they are asking $295K, yet we can't pay over $200K. So we need as much negotiation "room" as we can find.


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

killarney_sailor said:


> Doug
> Curious about what made you so interested in the CT 56? If it is aesthetics I can imagine it since they are beautiful. Just seems like an awfully big boat for a couple to cruise with. Heck, at times, my boat seems too big, but is much smaller 36K displacement vs 60k.


Well, initially we were shopping through the various Taiwanese boats, i.e., the Formosas, Hudsons, Force 50s, but most of them were beat to hell.
We wanted the sweeping decks, and the beautifully carved wood work.
But, most of the ones we saw did not have the pilot house cockpit we wanted which would provide the larger, more spacious aft cabin.

There are not many new ketches being built. No Beneteaus, Sabres, Jenneaus, Bavarias, etc., so, right off the bat, only the older boats are ketches with such beautiful lines and wood work.

The new boats, also don't have very good "fit and finish" and have a lot of veneered wood.

Besides the Fort Lauderdale boat shows, which we have attended for years, we just attended the Boston Boat show this past weekend. The new boats suck. All sloops, all with junky fit and finish. I pointed out the loose and poorly installed fittings on a Hanse I was aboard at the show to the salesman. And he didn't care! He said, this is a production boat.

These sloops have aft cabins like coffins, and I enjoy the ability to sail "jig and jigger" especially in strong winds.

So....... after we found mostly beat Formosas, etc., all in the $75 to $125K asking price range, we upped our "budget" and found these CTs. 
Well, these HAVE the beauty and the spacious interior space we are looking for! Did you see the interior on that link? WOW.

Now, we also have a chartering enterprise, so we need a boat which can accomodate 2 couples plus us, with an almost luxurious quality. The classic sailing lines of these CTs plus the gorgeous interiors, and the great aft cabins with 2 other ample staterooms, meets all those needs.

And all for around $200K! We are liveaboards. So, there is also the reality that we are at the dock around 90% of the time. And we want our "home" to be as comfy as possible.

Only a very few sailboats are away from the dock more than tied up to it.
Wherever we have been, for the most part, we are away from the dock more than all of our neighbors, and as I said, we aren't sailing anywhere near as often as we are tied up.

That's why.


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

tdw said:


> I'd hardly rate Jon Eisberg's post as "vile".
> 
> Seems to me that anyone has the right to doubt the veracity of claims by a yard to be able to deliver a 53' timber schooner for under USD$150,000, to employ between 30 and 400 people, to have a EU750,000 order book through to then end of 2011 and yet unable or at least unwilling to produce a single photograph of a completed or even semi completed boat.
> 
> ...


Perhaps "vile" was not the best choice of words. Yet, Mr. Eisenwhatever, may focus his choice of words a tad more acceptably if he wants to converse in a friendly manner, with me, or anyone.

He may well not believe the claims of a viable yard, however he need not associate his skeptical attitude toward the poster; in this case me.

As far as pictures of their completed builds, many do exist; but it is not my job to provide them. Anyone who wishes to may investigate that yard to their hearts delight, and in that investigation they may well confirm the globally known customers of that yard, starting with the Queen of England.

So, be a skeptic if you want to but don't focus that attitude on ME, when I am not the salesman, only the person sharing their existence. But, if you do choose to focus your skepticism on me, don't be too surprised if I react as anyone would who is being treated / associated with the target of that skepticism.

I don't need it, deserve it, and won't accept it.

The anonymity of the internet as a place to converse seems to allow those who choose to, to "speak" to others in manners which they generally would not do face to face.

I am only trying to raise that bar, if you want to talk to me. Pretend I am standing right in front of you, and then as we are enjoying a drink and appetizers together, with our wives beside us, you might notice that you are not asking: "Hope you're not seriously considering this... (grin)" Which denigrates me if I were to be seriously considering this.

Lets' play nice. That's all I am trying to accomplish. But, this person is especially adept at not. And I don't like being pushed onto my defensive mode while talking with "friends".


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Why is it that a word of warning is perceived as an attack on one's own integrity, or intelligence or manhood or whatever?
Doug, chill out. Skepticism is a GOOD thing, it makes one think.
*Mike Brady moment /on*
When you say "let's play nice," remember that "let's" is a contraction of "let us", and you are part of the "us," so don't forget to do your share.

*Mike Brady moment /off*


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

bljones said:


> Why is it that a word of warning is perceived as an attack on one's own integrity, or intelligence or manhood or whatever?
> Doug, chill out. Skepticism is a GOOD thing, it makes one think.
> *Mike Brady moment /on*
> When you say "let's play nice," remember that "let's" is a contraction of "let us", and you are part of the "us," so don't forget to do your share.
> ...


I am not the proper entity to focus skepticism of that yard upon.
I do not appreciate condescending attitudes, and his reaks of it.

Do you like people who act condescending to you? I doubt that settles well with anyone. He can stop that with everyone and enjoy the resulting improvement in his social life. Or not, his choice.


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## Dean101 (Apr 26, 2011)

tdw said:


> I'd hardly rate Jon Eisberg's post as "vile".
> 
> Seems to me that anyone has the right to doubt the veracity of claims by a yard to be able to deliver a 53' timber schooner for under USD$150,000, to employ between 30 and 400 people, to have a EU750,000 order book through to then end of 2011 and yet unable or at least unwilling to produce a single photograph of a completed or even semi completed boat.
> 
> ...


I'm just going to say it. I'm skeptical! I've spent the last 10 minutes trying to find a photo of a completed boat and cant. Everything I can find is rendered and dated for sometime in the future. I can type in Robert Perry and all kinds of information comes up, including photo's of proud Perry owners who want to show off their boats. I get the same results with William Garden and Carl Alberg.

I don't doubt that the person and design firm exist but I would not want to invest that kind of money in a boat from a company with that little notoriety. Not only that, I would definitely want to see examples of their work, period. This would apply to any expensive service or purchase, not just a boat.

Those CT's Doug seems to like have a proven and widely available history to them. He should well know what he's getting into with them. They are definitely beautiful, and who knows, Mr. Perry may even be somewhat familiar with the yard that built them and might share his thoughts if asked nicely.


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

Dean101 said:


> I'm just going to say it. I'm skeptical! I've spent the last 10 minutes trying to find a photo of a completed boat and cant. Everything I can find is rendered and dated for sometime in the future. I can type in Robert Perry and all kinds of information comes up, including photo's of proud Perry owners who want to show off their boats. I get the same results with William Garden and Carl Alberg.
> 
> I don't doubt that the person and design firm exist but I would not want to invest that kind of money in a boat from a company with that little notoriety. Not only that, I would definitely want to see examples of their work, period. This would apply to any expensive service or purchase, not just a boat.
> 
> Those CT's Doug seems to like have a proven and widely available history to them. He should well know what he's getting into with them. They are definitely beautiful, and who knows, Mr. Perry may even be somewhat familiar with the yard that built them and might share his thoughts if asked nicely.


From what little I have learned about this boat builder, they are by no means as "main stream" as Robert Perry, et. al., so.... perhaps if you are interested in them, you might consider contacting them directly.

Their contact information is readily available. I would assume they would provide you with all the information you might want.


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

I do think it would make a lot of sense for me to ask each of the sellers of the small number of CT 54 and 56s, globally, what their build number is; then I could ask Mr. Perry if he happens to know which of those would be the better built one out of this list.

Considering his involvement in their construction, he might well know the specific build history which sure would save me from a lot of research and investigation if he shared that with me.

Thanks everyone for pointing me in that direction.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

DougSabbag said:


> As far as pictures of their completed builds, many do exist; but it is not my job to provide them. Anyone who wishes to may investigate that yard to their hearts delight, and in *that investigation they may well confirm the globally known customers of that yard, starting with the Queen of England.*


Damn, I'm starting to wonder if there is a Royal Family anywhere out there who is NOT a customer of that yard?

However, you do realize that there is at least a minor distinction between _Naming_ your designs _After_ a Royal personage, and actually _Building_ said yacht _For_ an actual living, breathing Royal, right?

2013 361' Pavel Shaposhnikov Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II | Boating Life 360

Pavel Shaposhnikov Design The Queen Of Denmark à vendre sur Boats.com

2012 Pavel Shaposhnikov Design Queen Sofía of Spain - Boats.com

https://www.theyachtmarket.com/boats_for_sale/121405/

https://www.theyachtmarket.com/boats_for_sale/121663/

502' Pavel Shaposhnikov Design | Grand Dubai | 2014-Megayacht for sale Ukraine

238' Pavel Shaposhnikov Design | HSH Prince Albert II | 2014-Offshore Yacht for sale Ukraine

132' Pavel Shaposhnikov Design | HRH Princess of Hanove | 2013-Motoryacht for sale Ukraine

128' Pavel Shaposhnikov Design | HRH Crown Prince Fred | 2013-motoryacht for sale Ukraine

Last, but not least, you've gotta love some of the ad copy from this guy... Who wrote this stuff, the screenwriter of BORAT: Cultural Learnings of America for Make Benefit Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan ?



> Highness Name "Grand Dubai". Fourth Vessel of series Highness Vessels named by seven Emirates each. "Grand Dubai" Vessel were design by me as a mark highest respect for Mr. President HH Sheikh Khalifa bin Zayed Al Nahyan and People the State United Arab Emirates, . Year built: 2012


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## Dean101 (Apr 26, 2011)

DougSabbag said:


> From what little I have learned about this boat builder, they are by no means as "main stream" as Robert Perry, et. al., so.... perhaps if you are interested in them, you might consider contacting them directly.
> 
> Their contact information is readily available. I would assume they would provide you with all the information you might want.


Hi Doug.

Perhaps if they are not so mainstream, that could be why I couldn't find information on them. I know their contact information is online but one of the largest flags for me is the fact that I couldn't find anything about them that wasn't presented by the firm itself.

No matter what I'm in the market for, if I research it, I will very rarely ever look at reviews found on a website or any forum that the company controls. I'm not saying that all companies censor their reviews but, frankly, it's within their ability to do so. I look for unbiased, professional reviews which generally contain both positive and negative comments. Let's face it, no product is perfect. It is the lack of these independent sources that raise my skepticism.

Personally, I think those CT's speak well for your taste in boats. But then, I'm probably biased because they (the smaller versions) are on my list of possibles and I happen to think they are absolutely beautiful boats. After looking at pictures of the Triumph, I would really like to see what you could do with a CT! Did you see the video of the Irwin posted in one of the other threads? Talk about some quality work!


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Bit if a thing for pre WWII Dreadnoughts by the look of things.

https://www.theyachtmarket.com/boatImages/2011/5/19/11204695.jpg

Doug,
Ref the advice to speak with Bob Perry ... not so much to get him to design you a boat but BP offers an advisory service to folk looking to buy a used boat.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Those are not boats, keptin. Those are wessels.
Properly crewed by folk who cannot pronounce the letter "v" and are commanded by a Scot with a lisp pretending to be a Soviet U-boat commander.


Seriously, holy steampunk rethink of "Potemkin", Batman.


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

Well Sailors, we made an offer today on a 1986 Ta Chiao CT 56! 

If our offer is accepted, we should close on her March 31st. She is a beautiful boat, we're very excited to possibly be her next owners.

Can't wait to unfurl her sails!

By the way, we travelled to Long Beach / San Diego, Guatemala, Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands, Texas, New Orleans, Florida, and Long Island NY while searching / shopping for our boat.

We learned that just looking for a boat on-line is a lot like internet dating... when she opens the door you suddenly realize the pictures were taken years ago, before she stopped her regular maintenance....


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## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

Nice looking!


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

That's great news, Doug - hope everything goes smoothly on this one...

Really, I mean that... (grin)


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

LandLocked66c said:


> Nice looking!


She really IS a beautiful boat.

This is the description:

A Superb Blend of Old World Charm and Exquisite Craftsmanship, this is one of the most beautiful yachts ever built and can circumnavigate the globe with confidence. It's steady motion under power or sail make it an exceptional passage-maker, easily sailed short handed. Powered by a Ford Lehman 135hp engine, many updates have recently been done, including new Barrier Coating, New Hard Top with overhead windows, New Awlgrip Deck and Hull, Solar Panels, New Hard Dodger, Full Enclosure, NavNet Furuno Color Radar/Plotter/Weather, Robertson Autopilot and new Custom Electronics box at the helm. She offers air conditioned sleeping accommodation for eight, she has six ft. six inch headroom, and abundant creature comforts only found in much larger yachts. The raised saloon is at the foot of a grand stairway with double hand carved handrails and is a masterpiece of teak and rosewood. From the teak and holly sole to the teak paneling and beautifully carved doors, the rich hand varnished interior provides a warm and welcoming home, or home away from home. She is luxurious, bright and extremely spacious with lots of light and vetilation through out the yacht.


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## Dean101 (Apr 26, 2011)

DougSabbag said:


> Well Sailors, we made an offer today on a 1986 Ta Chiao CT 56!
> 
> If our offer is accepted, we should close on her March 31st. She is a beautiful boat, we're very excited to possibly be her next owners.
> 
> ...


Congratulations Doug! That really is a beautiful boat! You should take pictures on your first trip aboard and post them here. I at least would love to see more of her.


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

Dean101 said:


> Congratulations Doug! That really is a beautiful boat! You should take pictures on your first trip aboard and post them here. I at least would love to see more of her.


I will be more than happy to do just that!

By the way, Evelyn and I have arrived at a plan for our next Atlantic crossing attempt; she will be our remote weather person. She will communicate any storms or adverse weather conditions related to our course and position to us, from a land location.

When the (new) Triumph arrives in Europe, she will fly over to begin the cruising of the Med.

But, before we go, we do have a few things to test / check and then address. And you can bet the farm that I will replace the engine oil cooler, and will have the rig / chainplates thoroughly tested and replaced as needed.

With the experience of the last attempt behind us, we won't cast off until there aren't any "weak links", that we know of, or could imagine exist.

The ocean finds them, if we don't first.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Are you going to have a thorough survey done? I've often considered hiring a surveyor to do an "ocean crossing" survey. Ie, nothing held back, everything checked, die tests, engine, etc. even most prepurchase surveys fall way short. Honestly, for a boat of the size, a very thorough survey should take an inspector plus a helper (spare hands gofer) nearly two full days to complete. You might even need multiple players for structure, engine and electronics.


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## olddog60 (Oct 20, 2011)

This maybe worth the cost just to gain maximum confidence that nothing has been missed. Because of my limited knowledge I hired the best surveyor I could find at twice the cost of the competition for my prepurchase survey. He and I spent over 12 hours doing the inspection. The previous owner was not happy! However, I am confident I bought a solid vessel. Now I just need to get some experience and confidence in myself. For those of you in the Clear Lake area keep a keen eye out for the rookie!


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

DougSabbag said:


> ....By the way, Evelyn and I have arrived at a plan for our next Atlantic crossing attempt; she will be our remote weather person. ....


...the Mrs. passes judgment on the penultimate lesson one should take out of this never ending thread. Go Evelyn.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

DougSabbag said:


> She really IS a beautiful boat.
> 
> This is the description:
> 
> A Superb Blend of Old World Charm and Exquisite Craftsmanship, this is one of the most beautiful yachts ever built and can circumnavigate the globe with confidence. It's steady motion under power or sail make it an exceptional passage-maker, easily sailed short handed. Powered by a Ford Lehman 135hp engine, many updates have recently been done, including new Barrier Coating, New Hard Top with overhead windows, New Awlgrip Deck and Hull, Solar Panels, New Hard Dodger, Full Enclosure, NavNet Furuno Color Radar/Plotter/Weather, Robertson Autopilot and new Custom Electronics box at the helm. She offers air conditioned sleeping accommodation for eight, she has six ft. six inch headroom, and abundant creature comforts only found in much larger yachts. The raised saloon is at the foot of a grand stairway with double hand carved handrails and is a masterpiece of teak and rosewood. From the teak and holly sole to the teak paneling and beautifully carved doors, the rich hand varnished interior provides a warm and welcoming home, or home away from home. She is luxurious, bright and extremely spacious with lots of light and vetilation through out the yacht.


Ya, that's all nice... But, does it have *granite countertops*?


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

Minnewaska said:


> Are you going to have a thorough survey done? I've often considered hiring a surveyor to do an "ocean crossing" survey. Ie, nothing held back, everything checked, die tests, engine, etc. even most prepurchase surveys fall way short. Honestly, for a boat of the size, a very thorough survey should take an inspector plus a helper (spare hands gofer) nearly two full days to complete. You might even need multiple players for structure, engine and electronics.


Well, what we are looking for in the surveyor we need to hire for this purchase, which by the way, we have reached an agreement on the sale, (closing July 16th), is a surveyor experienced with these Ta Chiao CTs.

We are buying the boat: "as is", so whatever is wrong will be ours along with the boat. However, I would like to know what they can see is wrong with her; and someone experienced with these would be the best to spot the issues with one of these boats.

As far as an "ocean crossing" survey, well, we'll see how things are looking as we approach that time. Our tentative date for our next crossing will be years not months from now.

So, back to the present, we need a surveyor in the St. Augustine area who is experienced with Ta Chiao CT 56s, or 54s.


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

eherlihy said:


> Ya, that's all nice... But, does it have *granite countertops*?


I hate to bring this up but there are *marble* counter tops in the heads.

We'll just have to learn to live this way, as tough as that might be.


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

sailingfool said:


> ...the Mrs. passes judgment on the penultimate lesson one should take out of this never ending thread. Go Evelyn.


It would be sad if that would be your "judgement", and you would deny yourself the opportunity to try again, because of all the things that went wrong.

So, that's it, never try again? REALLY?! Is that the "penultimate lesson"?

Ever heard of the advice to "get back on the horse"?

My boat(s) which carry the name Triumph, are so named *not* because they (or I) have never experienced failure(s), they are so named because of the exquisite pleasure(s) of Triumph in life; and that almost always has failure as a stepping stone to get there.... thus the pleasure is so much stronger.

But, as I have asked so many times, of so many people, if YOU can claim to have never failed, then you may throw that rock.... otherwise, respect those who keep trying, for without that spirit we might still be hiding in caves.

Evelyn is not passing judgment, she is making a choice.


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

olddog60 said:


> This maybe worth the cost just to gain maximum confidence that nothing has been missed. Because of my limited knowledge I hired the best surveyor I could find at twice the cost of the competition for my prepurchase survey. He and I spent over 12 hours doing the inspection. The previous owner was not happy! However, I am confident I bought a solid vessel. Now I just need to get some experience and confidence in myself. For those of you in the Clear Lake area keep a keen eye out for the rookie!


We are buying our CT 56 "as is". She is a "solid vessel".


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

DougSabbag said:


> Well, what we are looking for in the surveyor we need to hire for this purchase, which by the way, we have reached an agreement on the sale, (closing July 16th), is a surveyor experienced with these Ta Chiao CTs.
> 
> We are buying the boat: "as is", so whatever is wrong will be ours along with the boat. However, I would like to know what they can see is wrong with her; and someone experienced with these would be the best to spot the issues with one of these boats.
> 
> ...


Does "as is" mean the contract is not subject to a survey of any kind? That would be pretty gutsy for me. Is the survey just for your own info?

Best of luck with her, she's a beauty. Having several years to prepare is great, but all the more reason to get an "ocean crossing" survey done now to create your to do list.


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

Minnewaska said:


> Does "as is" mean the contract is not subject to a survey of any kind? That would be pretty gutsy for me. Is the survey just for your own info?
> 
> Best of luck with her, she's a beauty. Having several years to prepare is great, but all the more reason to get an "ocean crossing" survey done now to create your to do list.


Well, the contract is somewhat conflictual on that point.... on the one hand it does state that this is contingent on the survey, but on the other hand it also states that the yacht is purchased: "as is".

But, we do have the "right" to decline the purchase until a specific date, which is after the survey should occur.

The survey which we will have done is for us, and for the insurance.


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

Addendum.... considering we will sail her from St. Augustine to Boston, immedietly after the closing, I suspect that will be the best "survey" which could be done.


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

sailingfool said:


> You.


So, what does "you" mean in relation to this "discussion"? You may well be a man of few words, but this is just too brief to consider sentient.

Have a nice day.


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## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

Did I miss the pics? Which one did you decide on?


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

LandLocked66c said:


> Did I miss the pics? Which one did you decide on?


I hadn't posted any pictures, but she is a 1986 Ta Chiao CT 56, currently named Bali Hai, in St. Augustine, FL.

She really is gorgeous! Negotiations are done, we close on her July 16th.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

LandLocked66c said:


> Did I miss the pics? Which one did you decide on?


She's on YW with lots of pics. And she is definitely a beauty.

Congrats Doug.


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

And, I created an album here, with a few pictures.

Thank you!


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## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

Ah, found it! Very cool, I remember looking at that one before. Can't wait to see her resting at the dock.


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

LandLocked66c said:


> Ah, found it! Very cool, I remember looking at that one before. Can't wait to see her resting at the dock.


And I can't wait to unfurl her sails! It should be a great cruise to Boston this summer!


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

One of the "issues" with this CT 56 is that the current owner had the teak deck sealed using Cetol. Well, as that is so infamous for doing, it has turned orange. 

So, I am wondering how to strip the Cetol off without being too violent, i.e., sanding.
Will "Strip Eze" do it?
Amazingly, the deck is not leaking, so I surely don't want to change that condition. 

Any ideas on this?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

DougSabbag said:


> Well, the contract is somewhat conflictual on that point.... on the one hand it does state that this is contingent on the survey, but on the other hand it also states that the yacht is purchased: "as is".
> 
> But, we do have the "right" to decline the purchase until a specific date, which is after the survey should occur.
> 
> The survey which we will have done is for us, and for the insurance.


Sounds fairly standard. You have the right to survey and reject by a certain date. But when you take delivery it will be "as is".

I think I would actually be reluctant to do a full ocean crossing survey, as I've now coined it, and hand that to an insurance company. I might, on the other hand, hire the same surveyor to continue on day two, after the report is written.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

DougSabbag said:


> One of the "issues" with this CT 56 is that the current owner had the teak deck sealed using Cetol. Well, as that is so infamous for doing, it has turned orange.
> 
> So, I am wondering how to strip the Cetol off without being too violent, i.e., sanding.
> Will "Strip Eze" do it?
> ...


Scrape it and then sand it. Is any of the caulk standing proud? Of so, you will want to trim that down first, which is a serious PITA.


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

Minnewaska said:


> Scrape it and then sand it. Is any of the caulk standing proud? Of so, you will want to trim that down first, which is a serious PITA.


Thank you.


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## manhattan08 (Mar 2, 2009)

Doug - Beautiful boat. Can you give us an idea as to how much leverage you had in negotiating? Would you say it is still a buyers market? you had mentioned earlier that you were looking to spend 200k. Was the seller willing to come down off of his price?


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

DougSabbag said:


> And, I created an album here, with a few pictures.
> 
> Thank you!


As my 15 year old daughter would say: "OMG times 3!"

Now that's what a sailboat is supposed to look like. Doug, best of luck to you and Evelyn. And please let us know if you plan on giving any of those talks in the CT area.


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

manhattan08 said:


> Doug - Beautiful boat. Can you give us an idea as to how much leverage you had in negotiating? Would you say it is still a buyers market? you had mentioned earlier that you were looking to spend 200k. Was the seller willing to come down off of his price?


Well, he came down from $295K asking, to $240K sold. Yes, it is a buyers market.

We "shopped" from Long Beach / San Diego to NY, with New Orleans, Texas, and the VIs in between. The other boats we looked at were more willing to negotiate; but this boat doesn't have a "list" anywhere near as extensive as the majority of the others did, so there was a lot less to point to as price diminishers.

All we were left with was the "buyers' market" to leverage. 

We decided to pay the extra $40K to save at least a year worth of work.
Plus, this boat is really gorgeous.


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

mstern said:


> As my 15 year old daughter would say: "OMG times 3!"
> 
> Now that's what a sailboat is supposed to look like. Doug, best of luck to you and Evelyn. And please let us know if you plan on giving any of those talks in the CT area.


THANK YOU!!! X 3 

This boat IS really gorgeous inside and out. I can't wait to unfurl her sails!

I sure will publish any speaking dates which come up.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

DougSabbag said:


> One of the "issues" with this CT 56 is that the current owner had the teak deck sealed using Cetol. Well, as that is so infamous for doing, it has turned orange.


Damn, anyone who attempts to "seal" a teak deck using Cetol should just be shot... Perhaps, in exchange for allowing him to live, you can do a bit more bargaining? (grin)

Sorry, no experience with attempting to remove that stuff, but I'd guess you'd have to get pretty aggressive with it... You might have a look at Rebecca Wittmann's book BRIGHTWORK, it's the definitive work on teak treatments, she might have some useful ideas...

If you need to do any yard work before you leave St. Augustine, I've had very good experiences with both Oasis Boat Yard, and the yard over at Camachee Cove... Oasis is very friendly to DIY-ers, and they're renowned for their work with Awlgrip... Pretty sure Camachee permits DIY as well, but their staff is first rate, and their diesel mechanic is one of the best I've ever come across...You might be pushing the limits of their Travelift, however, with your ketch rig... My experiences with both yards are dated by 6-8 years, however, so there's always the possiblilty things might have changed, of course...


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

I have had good luck with a cabinet scraper blade. Or a smoothing plane blade ground almost square. Create a burr with a mill file. You get about three strokes scraping and three with a file to replace the burr. Very, fast, safe and old school.


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

Well folks, we're in the middle of the delivery from Fort Lauderdale to Boston of our CT 56 / Triumph.

Initially John (a "hired friend"), and I had to spend 5 days, from Friday 7/20 through Tuesday addressing various issues in preparation for the cruise North. We had to address hydraulic steering hose replacements, engine starting issues, and batteries and their associated wiring, and charging systems. This effectively ate up the extra time I had allocated for the cruise north from work. The largest time "lost" was because of the elusive true engine starting issue of the ignition key mechanism being the real culprit; not the battery, wires, terminals, etc. Probably 2 days were eaten up until we discovered the ignition key mechanism was faulty.

We cast off on Wednesday, 7/25, and made it as far as Beaufort, N.C., where we put in at a Marina on Friday the 27th, in order to address leakage from the stuffing box. 

While there, John and I had discussions of the remaining course to follow wherein his priority of his personal comfort was determined to be in conflict with my time constraints. It sort of all came down to his demand to hug the coastline and then sail inside Long Island NY., and my calculation to make a straight line from where we were to Buzzards' Bay if I would have any chance of making it to Boston within my remaining time off from work. 

So, from this conflict, John and Evelyn switched as the "crew", and Evelyn and I headed out on Saturday the 28th, after John and I replaced the packing / stuffing in the stuffing box. 

When doing this stuffing box work, though we had access to supplies of stuffing materials, John indicated no need to acquire any other than what happened to be onboard, so that is what we used. There were 3 different sizes of this material, and we used them all.

As Evelyn and I headed North, I noticed more leakage from the stuffing box than was healthy, so I tightened the packing; this boats' stuffing box is the type which has 2 rectangular plates held together with 2 bolts, with the inside "plate" having a collar which fits inside the outside plate, and a packing material is inserted in the gap of these collars. Each tightening action temporarily stopped the leakage, but within minutes the leakage returned. Luckily the bilge pump kept up with this leak. 

Finally, I saw that the packing material was being broken up by the propeller shaft and the leak was in full flow status.

Also, the SW winds picked up to 30 + knots, inspiring us to head into them, effectively returning to Beaufort, NC. We pulled into that marina Sunday, 7/29, at about noon.

So, considering it would require acquisition of the correct stuffing box packing material on Monday, and the time to install it, we no longer had anywhere near enough time available from work to proceed.

Time and wrong choices worked against us.

The stuffing box has been repaired by competent people, and we have a delivery Captain about to bring her to Boston while Evelyn and I at our jobs.

And there you have it. Never easy or boring.

Doug


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## copacabana (Oct 1, 2007)

Good to hear you're back in the saddle again Doug. I'm sure you'll soon work your way through the teething pains of your new-to-you boat so you can resume your sailing adventures again. 

All the best!


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

I am already making lists....


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

Congrats and kudos to be on your way again Doug.

Not to sound judgmental but the stuffing box is too important to leave in the hands of 'competent people' to repair for you if you are planning to head across the pond again. I am not familiar with the stuffing box arrangement on a 54' boat like yours but I have learned that using the correct size packing is quite important. Using packing that is even 1/16" too small or too big can lead to problems that can bite you in the a$$ when there are no 'competent people' to take care of it for you.

You might have seen this tutorial on stuffing boxes but I'm linking it anyway: Re-Packing A Traditional Stuffing Box Photo Gallery by Compass Marine at pbase.com
I doubt your 54 footer has the same kind of stuffing box but the principles are the same.

Nice to read that you are back at the helm.


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

What's the granite situation?


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

Wondering about the "Dynamic Tuning"?


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

CalebD said:


> Congrats and kudos to be on your way again Doug.
> 
> Not to sound judgmental but the stuffing box is too important to leave in the hands of 'competent people' to repair for you if you are planning to head across the pond again. I am not familiar with the stuffing box arrangement on a 54' boat like yours but I have learned that using the correct size packing is quite important. Using packing that is even 1/16" too small or too big can lead to problems that can bite you in the a$$ when there are no 'competent people' to take care of it for you.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your helpful link / video and advice. I used the term "competent" less for the knowledge of how to replace the packing in my stuffing box, but more for the error my friend and I made in using the packing which we found onboard which was the incorrect size. So, I was making a humble sideways comment that we always have more to learn.

You are correct, the stuffing box in this CT 56 (not 54 footer) is different from what was in the Gulfstar I had. This one uses 2 opposing plates held together with 2 bolts. The previous one was the type with 2 large nuts requiring 2 monkey wrenches to adjust.

Though the packing in each of those follows the same general concept from there.

Thanks again,
Doug


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

aeventyr60 said:


> Wondering about the "Dynamic Tuning"?


Well, after I get the new Triumph to Boston, I will be modifying / changing the rigg. For instance I will be removing the roller furling / behind the mast mizzen mechanism and returning that to the track / halyard design. And, replacing numerous turnbuckles, some cable(s), and lets not forget the CHAINPLATES!

After all of that, I will be tuning the rigg while underway, besides at the dock.

Thank you for asking....
Doug


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

chrisncate said:


> What's the granite situation?


Too funny.... 

Actually, the galley has the typical white counter material, but the heads have some beautiful marble!

We will be replacing the faucets, shower plumbing, sinks, all the lights, and all of the door knobs.

But, we have no plans for installing granite, at this time.

Doug


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Pics when you get a chance!


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

DougSabbag said:


> We cast off on Wednesday, 7/25, and made it as far as Beaufort, N.C., where we put in at a Marina on Friday the 27th, in order to address leakage from the stuffing box.


Wow, even if you had departed at 0001 on Wednesday, and arrived at 2359 on Friday, that's a pretty quick trip... You guys must have nailed the Stream, for sure...

Very odd that after such a passage, your crew would want to hug the coast north of Hatteras... Given favorable weather, your inclination to shoot straight for the CC canal would definitely have been the preferred route, especially for a shorthanded crew...

Some may disagree with this, but you might want to consider a dripless shaft seal at some point in the future, I've found them to be very reliable...

Congrats on your new baby, and good luck getting her the rest of the way home...


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

smackdaddy said:


> Pics when you get a chance!


Look in my "album"! I would insert some into these posts, however from what I understand they have to have an url / link in order to be inserted.


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

FYI.... the boat and delivery crew should be arriving in Boston Harbor at approximately 6:00 pm this evening!

We will take them to the North End to celebrate with some Italian food, and put them on a plane tomorrow at noon.

Then... we can move onboard.  And with that, we will have nearly completely "recuperated" from last summers' disaster.


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## carl762 (Jan 11, 2010)

Hey Doug, beautiful boat. which post # has the picture album? I missed it. 

Congratulations on your new boat. Sorry you had to go through what you did to get here.

Sure wish I had the means to get into what you just bought. However, I'm enjoying immensely my little 23-foot Sundance. Makes me joyous just thinking about her, and I didn't want to leave her this morning to head to work. Looking for a live aboard situation in the next few years.


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

carl762 said:


> Hey Doug, beautiful boat. which post # has the picture album? I missed it.
> 
> Congratulations on your new boat. Sorry you had to go through what you did to get here.
> 
> Sure wish I had the means to get into what you just bought. However, I'm enjoying immensely my little 23-foot Sundance. Makes me joyous just thinking about her, and I didn't want to leave her this morning to head to work. Looking for a live aboard situation in the next few years.


Thank you! If you click on my profile / name, it will bring you to a picture album here on Sailnet.

On Fridays I have the great pleasure of "working from home" doing my computer programming job. 

I can well understand your love of your boat.... I think most of us have that disease.


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## carl762 (Jan 11, 2010)

In a very bad way. Thinking of buying a Catalina 27 tall rig in December. Thinking hard about it. Then, I'll have two boats.

"Invalid Album specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator" was the message I got when I clicked on your albums created link.


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## Chadfunk48 (Jun 8, 2006)

Yea I got the same message when I tried to view the album. ADMINSTRATOR THIS THINGY IS BROKED. There I told the administrator, it should work now.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

Doug, any chance of posting some pictures in a regular post. The album link is broken.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

DougSabbag said:


> Look in my "album"! I would insert some into these posts, however from what I understand they have to have an url / link in order to be inserted.


No you can just upload a jpeg.
Might have to shrink it down to a smaller size.
Just scroll down to manage attachments and and upload.


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

carl762 said:


> In a very bad way. Thinking of buying a Catalina 27 tall rig in December. Thinking hard about it. Then, I'll have two boats.
> 
> "Invalid Album specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator" was the message I got when I clicked on your albums created link.


If you send me your email address I will send lots of pictures.


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

davidpm said:


> No you can just upload a jpeg.
> Might have to shrink it down to a smaller size.
> Just scroll down to manage attachments and and upload.


For whatever it is worth, my album is fully functional for my viewing... ?


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

Our first weekend onboard surely was a messy one... first moving onboard while the boat is at a mooring was more of a challenge than the usual "moving day" for people. However, the guy running the launch was amenable to filling his boat to the rails, and then all the passing of boxes, etc. Not to mention the "bell hop" from Boston Harbor Hotel that helped transfer all those items from a van to the dock; 2 loads of 2 carts, in almost 90 degree heat.

Both were tipped well.. 

Then, we found the boat was out of water; the water maker high pressure pump is not working, and after we tied up to a dock and stole 300 gallons of water, we learned that the delivery crew had apparently allowed the water pump to run dry for too long, which ruined the "stator", i.e., an impeller type part.

And, we learned that the toilets only run from fresh water!!!! How sick is that!? So, we can't take showers, or flush a toilet.

The air conditioners are dysfunctional, the refrigerator and the freezer are likewise dysfunctional; and without water, obviously the washer & dryer are out of the picture.

The delivery crew left the main halyard at the top of the mast; and the spinnaker pole hoist is stick on a block half way up the main, so the pole is embarrassingly askew.

We have been relocating all the things onboard, besides what we brought onboard, since the previous owners barely ever used her, and hadn't at all for the last few years, her various parts were in the weirdest of places.

Anyway, happy Monday! 

Today I'll be ordering 2 new FrigoBoat systems, and a stator for the water pump to be delivered ASAP.


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## Chadfunk48 (Jun 8, 2006)

Wow, sounds like the delivery crew really did a number on her. But at least she is in one piece and you are getting situated aboard. Good luck and I hope your new home comes together nicely!


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

Chadfunk48 said:


> Wow, sounds like the delivery crew really did a number on her. But at least she is in one piece and you are getting situated aboard. Good luck and I hope your new home comes together nicely!


Well, as far as the burnt out water pump, a good part of the "blame" should go to whoever decided to feed the toilets fresh water! That must have sucked up a good amount of the water, considering there were 3 people onboard for 4 days.

The main sail had a ludicrous "tab" of material for the halyard to connect to, instead of a healthier reinforced connection point. 
So, though it would have been nice for one of them to retrieve the halyard, the sail design was at "fault".... 

Overall, the previous owner was clearly a motor boater stuck in a sailboat.
He should have bought a trawler or a Hatteras.

We will bring her around though!! Without running an 8Kw generator 24 X 7, and without flushing fresh water....

Doug


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Flushing fresh water is desired by many, to avoid odor from decaying organisms in salt water. But I'm with you. It isn't necessary, especially if you use the heads often and pump out often.

I do not know what a stator is on a water pump, unless it only refers to a component of the motor itself. Still, I thought that was a generator/alternator part. In any case, fresh water is a life critical system and I would swap the whole pump out, as well as buy a spare to be vac packed and kept aboard. In fact, that is precisely what I did when the same happened to my current boat.

Making water with a water maker in a harbor is generally a very bad idea for the water maker. Too many contaminants.


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

Minnewaska said:


> Flushing fresh water is desired by many, to avoid odor from decaying organisms in salt water. But I'm with you. It isn't necessary, especially if you use the heads often and pump out often.
> 
> I do not know what a stator is on a water pump, unless it only refers to a component of the motor itself. Still, I thought that was a generator/alternator part. In any case, fresh water is a life critical system and I would swap the whole pump out, as well as buy a spare to be vac packed and kept aboard. In fact, that is precisely what I did when the same happened to my current boat.
> 
> Making water with a water maker in a harbor is generally a very bad idea for the water maker. Too many contaminants.


The "stator" in this case is basically an impeller, except it doesn't look like an impeller at all. It looks like a rubber upside down cup, without any handle.
The spinning end of the pump is twisted and fits inside the stator, which is inside a housing, wherein the water flows.

At the price of these pumps, I will NOT be buying more. Though I do understand the reasoning.

I have used water makers in many harbors.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Not sure of the cost of the pump on your boat, but I bought a very nice Shurflo self regulating pressure pump for a couple hundred dollars, IIRC. Two, in fact, as being aboard with no fresh water is a serious problem. BTDT. It puts out pressure exactly like at home and is variable.


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

Minnewaska said:


> Not sure of the cost of the pump on your boat, but I bought a very nice Shurflo self regulating pressure pump for a couple hundred dollars, IIRC. Two, in fact, as being aboard with no fresh water is a serious problem. BTDT. It puts out pressure exactly like at home and is variable.


This water pump has an accumulator tank. I think it is a rebuilt Galley Maid, rebuilt by a place in Fort Lauderdale called Raz Marine.

Raz Marine | Head Pumps | Water Pumps | Fort Lauderdale Florida

Luckily, the circuit breaker kept the motor from burning out; so all we need is the "stator", i.e., the rubber part. I ordered 2 of those.

I have experienced a lot of Shurflos... and every time I buy one, I get the product insurance with it. We went through 3 "Extreme Series" Shurflos, (advanced variable model), within 1 year before I let them off of the hook and took a lesser model. Being liveaboards, we find out within about 6 months what products are built to last, and which are not.

Once we have water again, I will be redesigning the toilets to actually do what the switch the prior owner had installed says it does: use either ocean or fresh water. Currently, the pretty switch does nothing. :-(

And, the 110v cold plate refrigeration systems are being ripped out to be replaced with FrigoBoat air & water cooled systems. These use variable controls on the compressors which are much more efficient.

Anyone interested in some 110v with cold plate(s) systems?? 

We are also going to be replacing the air conditioning systems. I have long ago learned to just replace anything with freon in it when it is past its prime.
It isn't worth the repair costs / labor, especially when you consider that todays' technicians don't know how to fix things. They only replace modules.

Never boring....


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

carl762 said:


> In a very bad way. Thinking of buying a Catalina 27 tall rig in December. Thinking hard about it. Then, I'll have two boats.
> 
> "Invalid Album specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator" was the message I got when I clicked on your albums created link.


A friend of mine up here just told me that he wants to sell his 1984 Pearson 303 to move to a motor boat, to liveaboard.

If anyone is interested in a 1984 Pearson 303 sailboat: 
Contact Jack Cleary at: [email protected]

Fair winds....


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## copacabana (Oct 1, 2007)

DougSabbag said:


> Our first weekend onboard surely was a messy one... first moving onboard while the boat is at a mooring was more of a challenge than the usual "moving day" for people. However, the guy running the launch was amenable to filling his boat to the rails, and then all the passing of boxes, etc. Not to mention the "bell hop" from Boston Harbor Hotel that helped transfer all those items from a van to the dock; 2 loads of 2 carts, in almost 90 degree heat.
> 
> Both were tipped well..
> 
> ...


Now aren't you glad you have a big boat with all the mod cons?? 

Seriously Doug, this is what we were talking about on the other thread. Big boats = big headaches! 

Seriously, I hope you get things settled quickly so you can both resume your travels. All the best!


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

copacabana said:


> Now aren't you glad you have a big boat with all the mod cons??
> 
> Seriously Doug, this is what we were talking about on the other thread. Big boats = big headaches!
> 
> Seriously, I hope you get things settled quickly so you can both resume your travels. All the best!


As we sit on deck while moored in boston Harbor, near where a lot of ferries and other large boats are passing us frequently, we have noted that the 20 - 30 something sailboats are bouncing around like mad, while we barely move.

When we pulled into the dock at Boston Harbor Hotel Sunday morning to fill up our water tanks, Evelyn and I were able to leisurely tie up, without any dock people there to throw our lines to, because our boat is not easily pushed or moved by the tide / currents or even the wind. She sits there allowing us to tie her to the dock easily.

Granted our boat has a water pump problem, and a refrigeration problem, and an AC problem, etc., but doesn't your boat have a water pump, and a refrigerator with perhaps a freezer too? Most boats we were around in Florida, regardless of size, also had AC systems.

Regardless of the size of vessel, when a pump breaks, you have to fix it.
And any boat people would live in and not be "camping out" in will have these same systems, possibly just not as robust, but, they break too....

If your water pump, or toilet(s), or refrigeration, or AC if you have it, or bilge pump(s), or engine(s), or windlass, etc., have never broken, died, hick upped, or otherwise required some sort of attention, you either started boating within the last year, or you are "exaggerating".

And finally, neither Evelyn nor I have any interest in down sizing from our spacious wonderful vessel in order to what.... have less room?

We like the spacious room, the strong and full sized equipment, the smooth tracking, the 65,000 lbs of displacement, and all of our guests do too.

If I won the lottery I would buy much BIGGER. Can you say Perini Navi!?


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

DougSabbag said:


> A friend of mine up here just told me that he wants to sell his 1984 Pearson 303 to move to a motor boat, to liveaboard.
> 
> If anyone is interested in a 1984 Pearson 303 sailboat:
> Contact Jack Cleary at: [email protected]
> ...


As an example of a recent "liveaboard" who is regretting buying too small, Jack bought this Pearson 30 footer last summer.

If he had bought a 50 footer, or larger, I highly doubt he would be as inspired to shift to the M/V world.

Which brings us back to what I advise anyone venturing toward a liveaboard life: *Buy as big as you can afford.* You will much more likely regret buying too small than you will regret buying too big.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

DougSabbag said:


> Which brings us back to what I advise anyone venturing toward a liveaboard life: *Buy as big as you can afford.* You will much more likely regret buying too small than you will regret buying too big.


Different strokes for different strokes, as always, but I'd disagree with that to a certain extent...

No question, for most people living aboard in a marina setting, their boat functioning primarily as a _houseboat_, that approach will work for many people...

However, once a typical Mom & Pop cruising couple really start really going places, I think there's much less validity to such an approach... Especially as people age and become less fit, there's a real value in keeping the size of the boat within reason, and relatively modest... I'm often shocked at the extent to which some people out there today are "over-boated", and entirely dependent upon electrical or otherwise complex systems to deal with the physical loads larger boats bring to bear...

I've seen lots of clients over the years who succumbed to the desire to buy "the biggest boat they could afford"... Unfortunately, the tendency appears to be to greatly underestimate the costs involved beyond the initial purchase price, and such purchases invariably result in the boat's sitting still over time, instead of being actually used...


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

As is often the case a pinch of truth to both sides of the coin. 

LOA is often a poor method of discerning boat size but we knew after spending almost every weekend and a couple of months a year on board that our 34'er was too small for us. I'll readily admit however that had I been able to own her thirty years ago she would have been damn near perfect for that much younger me.

That said and having had our 40'er for over a year now I'd not like to go much larger. We rarely have guests staying so we only need to worry about room for two and our girl has enough of that. I can see that an extra few feet would bring us a slightly bigger galley and perhaps an island v-berth up front or a great cabin in the stern but at what price in terms of handling, maintenance and of course dollars ?


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

Buying a bit bigger than you think you need, and smaller than the max you can just barely afford strikes me as a good balance. I'm happier buying parts for my A30, and happier working on the big 45'+ powerboats with more elbow room when someone else buys the parts and pays for fuel/moorage.
I wouldn't want a 60' boat for example, for my needs it's just too much, especially when it comes to cleaning!. However a 36' feels just a bit too big for me, including extrapolating extra space for things I don't own but may want, and including space for a partner down the road if needed. Everyone's needs may be different, but general guidlines could apply. 
The A30 I own, is just right for me now, but I suspect I'll want more room later, and then I'll have a nicely outfitted boat for someone else to enjoy the fruits of my labor.

EDIT: Also, you have inspired me to add some granite to my A30, I used to fabricate and install granite countertops, and there's one granite that would be just perfect, it's a strange mix of cream, orange, black and translucent, the kind of look no synthetic has. 
I'm keeping my eye out for a small piece to do my galley with if I don't go full synthetic.


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## copacabana (Oct 1, 2007)

Just curious JG, how thin can the granit slab be to safely use over a plywood counter on a boat? Granit is very cheap in Brazil and I'm getting ready to replace my formica counters. I just don't want to add a ton of weight though.


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

copacabana said:


> Just curious JG, how thin can the granit slab be to safely use over a plywood counter on a boat? Granit is very cheap in Brazil and I'm getting ready to replace my formica counters. I just don't want to add a ton of weight though.


I'm not sure, usually we didn't use it over plywood sheet though. Just mounted on the upper edges of the cheap wood the cabinets were made out of. Interestingly, the fragile granite I was talking about the back was usually fiberglassed for strength. Regular granite didn't need that. It was about a half inch thick as I recall, maybe a bit less in thin sections(such as in front of a sink) a metal rod was placed into a groove cut with an angle grinder, and epoxied in place. This was more so the sheet could be carried up stairs etc without breaking, than for strength after install. When the middle might only have a couple inches wide either side, and need to handle two guys hoisting and carrying it by hand things could get a little dicey.

To do the edges, we'd make a cut about an inch in from the edge, flip the cut off piece underneath and epoxy it in place, then grind the edge smooth and polish it. This gave you the thick edge feeling like a full thickness, a smooth shiny bottom edge, even nicer than a full thickness slab and some extra strength too.

Perhaps you could do the same(with the fiberglass on the back, and the laminated edge, skipping the metal rod if not needed.)

I was always amazed at the amount of abuse these slabs took being carried around. 
The only thing more durable was the quartz contertops(basically stone+acrylic. They didn't need the re-finishing like granite, and we even dropped a slab without damage once.

Ours were usually a single layer of glass and resin, but I did a little googling, and came across this:
Lightweight Stone for Yachts Elevator Floors & Walls,Transparent Marble,Granite,Onyx

GRAMA BLEND LUMO
4mm of stone and 5mm of GRP backing, might be even better/lighter! 
Looks like it's rated for countertops and floors, might be easier than making it yourself, though if it's economical to find granite there, I'd think going with the thinnest avail over 3/8" and then having the back done in fiberglass up to a couple inches off the edge, with the edge doubled over for visual/physical appeal would do the job quite well, and possibly be overkill


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

Jgbrown said:


> Buying a bit bigger than you think you need, and smaller than the max you can just barely afford strikes me as a good balance. I'm happier buying parts for my A30, and happier working on the big 45'+ powerboats with more elbow room when someone else buys the parts and pays for fuel/moorage.
> I wouldn't want a 60' boat for example, for my needs it's just too much, especially when it comes to cleaning!. However a 36' feels just a bit too big for me, including extrapolating extra space for things I don't own but may want, and including space for a partner down the road if needed. Everyone's needs may be different, but general guidlines could apply.
> The A30 I own, is just right for me now, but I suspect I'll want more room later, and then I'll have a nicely outfitted boat for someone else to enjoy the fruits of my labor.
> 
> ...


Interesting story on our granite installation a few years ago.... a quote for replacing the formica was $4500 in just the galley. Instead, a likewise "burnt orange / cream / black" mixture, (which really added a lot of zip), for the galley AND both heads came to $2500. I ended up having to install it as they were gouging the teak all around the granite, but nevertheless, it was much better than the formica and cost a fraction as much. Also it didn't create any list or imbalance to the boat, perhaps because the aft head offset the galley, and the bow head was more centralized.

When you liveaboard, and especially if you are married, it is some of these little touches that appease the "nest building" portion of us.


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## copacabana (Oct 1, 2007)

Thanks for the information JGBrown. Sorry I didn't reply earlier, but I just saw your post now. Very good advice and I like the idea of using fiberglass as a backing and doubling the edge. I think I'll go with a half inch as you suggest and dispense with the plywood. As I said, granit is very cheap here (around US$100 for 10 spare feet / US$100 per square meter, and that's custom cut, polished and ready to install). I think it might actually come out cheaper than formica! 

Cheers!


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

Last Sat my wife and I took a trip to see Doug and Evelin's beautiful boat in Boston.
They were very generous in letting us look around as I know their time is very precious as they are getting ready for the winter.

Thanks Doug and keep in touch.
The two of you are an inspiration.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Very cool dpm! SN coming through again!


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