# How much maintenance and repair, really?



## Neosec (Jun 25, 2013)

I'm new here and have been reading through the forums; much is written about maintenance and repair. The visions I have in my head are that something(s) break(s) every day and a couple nights each week you need to sleep with a finger plugging a leak through the hull. Is a 40ft sailboat that much more work to maintain than a 3,500 sqft, house on, say, 3 acres?

How about examples of what broke this week (or should this be month) and how you fixed it, i.e. yourself or a pro or didn't yet. And cost if you don't mind sharing.


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## dvuyxx (Jun 23, 2009)

Yup. Things on water take a constant beating. But I think that you are also hearing from people that are essentially restoring old boats project by project. That gives the illusion that things are suddenly breaking. In the case of my boat, I'm slowly addressing things that are 34 years in the making. My list is long.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

If you buy a moder, fiberglass boat there is little mmaintenance.
If you buy an old ****-locker there is a LOT of maintenance. However those people on junk piles will tell you I am wring.

But see threads like this: http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-review-purchase-forum/94255-pros-cons-steel-sailboats.html
300 posts to justify a pile of rust!

Mark


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## dvuyxx (Jun 23, 2009)

Yes. Get a survey of the boat and then you should (to some extent) know what to expect.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Okay, neo, I am going to give you the answer to absolutely every sailboat question, from navigation to rigging to construction to maintenance...
Ready?

Here it is:


It depends.


if you buy a $10K boat sight unseen for $5K , expect to do $5k in work. But, if you do your due diligence, crawl the online classifieds daily, have cash in hand and a surveyor on call, or at least a solid working knowledge of boats and associated gear, enough to sift the chaff from the wheat, then you may get lucky.

In any event, a good solid rule of thumb is to allow 20% of the purchase budget for immediate maintenance, then set aside that amount every year for ongoing stuff.
you may not use it some years, in which case you can shuffle those funds over to the "improvements" budget, which , for some reason, always seems to run short.

another way to look at it is:
What does maintaining a boat cost?
What do you have in your pocket after you have paid for a mooring or dockage and living expenses?
That money is your maintenance budget- no more, no less.


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## Neosec (Jun 25, 2013)

> In any event, a good solid rule of thumb is to allow 20% of the purchase budget for immediate maintenance, then set aside that amount every year for ongoing stuff.


Thanks for the replies all. I know this is like trying to define how far is up.

does that 20% annually mean doing the work yourself, having a marina do it or a combination of the two?
Let me guess... it depends. 
For the DIYer 5-10% covers it, for the unhandy 25-30%. Then there are those that have one working head out of two, for years on end and claim not to spend even 10% on maintenance. I know everyone is different and has very different expectations. To each his own, and rightly so. I should probably avoid a boat because I don't like to have anything not operating the way it should. And that will likely run me broke, drive me insane or more likely, both.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Neosec said:


> I should probably avoid a boat because I don't like to have anything not operating the way it should. And that will likely run me broke, drive me insane or more likely, both.


Oh, hell no.

You're never gonna survive unless you get a little bit crazy.

Buy a boat. 
Buy the best boat you can find with 80% of your boatbuying budget.
Then spend $250 or so on the nigel calder library and the don casey library.

Then start dealing with the maintenance issues that need to be addressed to makeyour boat legal- yes, buying life jackets and in-date flare shells IS maintenance.
Then figure out what jobs yu need to accomplished soonest, while sailing your boat.

If you are unsure about inspecting a boat yourself, if you find assembling IKEA bookshelves daunting, then hire a surveyor to look a solid prospect over.

(Yeah, i know some think that the $500 survey cost on a $5K boat is folly, but if it prevents you from buying a boat that needs $2K more work than you expected... which is $2K beyond your budget... the math works.)
make your list, check it twice, then break it down into years, based on immediacy.
every boat owner, whether they have consciously thought about it or not, has a five year maintenance plan.


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

If you do ALL the work yourself, AND you start with a boat in OK shape, you can probably keep it in that shape for about 10% of the purchase price per year (give or take). But, that doesn't count upgrades, accidents, et cetera. 

So, buy a boat for $10k, expect to spend about $1k (on average) every year. Buy the same make, model, and year boat for $20k (assuming both boat were bought for "fair" prices) and it will take about $2k per year to keep her in the better shape her higher price commanded. In other words, if you buy a boat in OK shape it will take less $$$ every year to keep her in OK shape then you would spend to keep a "really nice" boat in "really nice" condition.

Then again, buy a $40k boat and only put $1k per year into her and she'll pretty quickly become a $10k boat. By the same token, if you buy a $10k boat and sink another $10k into her in upgrades, you should expect to spend about $2k per year to keep her at that higher condition.

Remember, these are just rough averages. Your "milage" may vary.


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## CaptainForce (Jan 1, 2006)

I can only supply a little annecdotal data, but here's a list of my most recent two month's activity on my 41' liveaboard/cruising 1973 ketch.

1- Replace LED anchor light at masthead (ca $20)
2- Change oil in Yanmar & Kubota genset (ca 1.75gal of oil)
3- Change braces under genoa sheet blocks (two cut tennis balls)
4- Change two Raycor 500 filter bails (ca $40)
5- Check Kubota zinc (no cost)
6- Re-set stern pulpit stainless braces (no cost)
7- Refit & replace forward head macerator, momentary switch & fuse case (ca $215)

I think this is typical for me, but sometimes I do much more and sometimes much less.


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## FinallySailing (Feb 12, 2013)

There are monetary maintenance costs and then there is also the time necessary to fix things. I spend both willingly, as part of the passion that sailing and owning a boat has created in me. It's also part of the learning process, to understand how things work I need to know how to repair them. One day, I hope, I will be going on adventures much further afield (obviously with a different boat that I have now), so anything I learn now may well come in handy when there is nobody else to do it.


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## wingNwing (Apr 28, 2008)

Our projects last couple of months, for a 1980 33-foot boat, full-time liveaboard:

Little stuff: 

* water pump knocking: <$20 for extra clamps and screws to hold hoses firmly, ~ 1 hour
* VHF radio not receiving properly: ~ $100 for a tester, 3 trips up the mast, ~ 5 hours tracking the problem + 1 hour to fix corroded connector when we finally found it. VHF itself was fine, but decided to upgrade to DSC when we found one on sale for $200
* oil exterior teak: ~ $50 for supplies; 15 hours so far and counting (we have a lot of teak)
* clean hull and check zincs; NO WAY am I going for a swim in the muck that is Back Creek. Pay diver $3/foot = $100.
* air conditioner not working efficiently; check strainers and discharge (okay, ~30 min). Call repair guy to recharge refrigerant; $200.

Every year we do one "big" upgrade project in the $3,000 - $5,000 range. Last year, we hauled for two months and paid to have someone strip 12 years of bottom paint, fair the hull and apply CopperCoat epoxy bottom paint. The year before, new sails. This year, all-new electric panel, battery switches, and our boat-fire-waiting-to-happen DC system completely brought up to ABYC standard. 

Boat surveyed at $65K four years ago. That puts us exactly on track for spending 10% of the value per year to keep her at that level.


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

I can say this. My boat was never in better shape, and never costs me less money in repairs, than the year I lived and cruised on it. When you are constantly on the boat, and constantly on top of things, it is amazing how often small problems are detected and corrected before they become big problems.

You also get really good at fixing things yourself out in the boondocks, that you would pay someone to do, sitting at the fancy dock.


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

To add to some of the data points above, assume yard labor rates are $80-$100/hour.

I also agree with BLJones on the survey. I wish I had gotten one on my old boat, and I only paid $1000 for her. What I didn't realize at the time was that, by joining Sailnet and other forums, I would come to look critically on all of the work the previous owners had done (and the stuff they hadn't done) and start to wonder in what order I should tackle the various projects. It also left me wondering what ELSE was there that I didn't know about. $300-500 for a survey is a decent chunk of cash, but it would have been very valuable for peace of mind.

I also agree with the comment above that many of the posts you see are from people asking questions because they've just found a problem, or just bought the boat. But look for example, at the number of time T37Chef, Chef2Sail, BLJones, CruisingDad, or DRFerron posts actual questions or talks about the problems/things that broke on their boats. They've thad their boats for a while, have worked through most of the issues, and are now at the maintenance/upgrade cycle where things become more stable.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

I think the only thing that you can count on is that there will be repair and maintenance costs. Whether it's boat systems or environmental (re: unexpected hull cleaning, haul for hurricane, etc.), there will always be something to either fix yourself (so time not sailing) or pay someone else to do it ($$ and possibly time not sailing while you wait).

During our first year as a larger (than our previous 22 footer) boat owner we had the yard do almost everything. As we became more familiar and gained confidence that we weren't going to blow up or sink, we took on almost all of the repairs/maintenance. Annual costs have so far dropped dramatically since those first few years.


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## copacabana (Oct 1, 2007)

I'm going to offer a slightly different view on this. I think your maintenance costs and time input are directly proportional to the complexity of your boat. The simpler you keep your boat, the cheaper and easier to maintain it in good working order. Unlike most people, I have been removing "systems" from my boat only to replace them with reliable, inexpensive-to-maintain manual systems. Some examples of my "upgrades" are:

Foot pumps for all fresh and salt water (No pressurized water anywhere. I carry 2 new foot pumps in case one fails)

Nature's Head composting toilet (Simplicity itself. Nothing can go wrong with it and there is no maintenance)

Manual windlass (no electric motor, wiring runs, breakers, extra batteries and complex charging systems)

Solar power for all my energy needs (no genset, wind power or complicated charging systems)

All LED lighting (never change a bulb! Allows you to reduce your battery bank size and charging systems)

One large 160amp house battery for all my power needs (simple wiring and less to go wrong). I also have a 70amp starter battery for the diesel engine.

Windvane and tillerpilot driving the windvane for my autopilot needs (simple, extremely energy efficient and cheap and if the tiller pilot fails you can carry a spare to switch out while you repair the other one)

By leaving off the following items you will save yourself a LOT of expense and maintenance down the road:

Genset (another motor and electrical system to maintain)

Watermaker (high maintenance - build in bigger tanks for more water)

Electric windlass (high maintenance and requires extra battery power and wiring)

Air conditioning (need I say anything??)

Pressurized water (not very high maintenance perhaps, but requires more battery power and charging systems)

RIB and outboard engine (A hard rowing dinghy -admittedly for purists- is rugged and gives almost zero maintenance and can be propelled by oars, saving the expense and headache of an outboard engine)

External teak (it is a labour of love and some people enjoy it)

Fridge (This is one item I'm prepared to keep and maintain, but if you can live without one, it does simplify everything, especially your charging system)

The hull, mast, rigging and bottom are a given for every boat and will involve some sporadic maintenance (hauling and painting, changing rigging periodically etc.). If you read cruising blogs I think you'll get a pretty good idea of the kinds of things that break down the most on boats (basically the things I mention above). If you have lots of money and are not sailing abroad, then a complex boat isn't much of a problem (when stuff breaks, replace it at the yard), but if you are thinking of cruising abroad (and far from West Marine) there is a lot to be said for keeping the boat as simple as possible and carrying all the spares you need. I cruise in Brazil where boat parts are probably 4 times the price of American chandleries and qualified labour is often very hard to find. I think once you leave the US, Canada, Europe, Australia and New Zealand (and perhaps a few other places) you will find that parts are hard to find and specialized labour even harder (but perhaps you can fix it all yourself if you are the DIY type). 

Anyhow, just a few things to think about when you buy and outfit the boat.


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

Neosec said:


> Is a 40ft sailboat that much more work to maintain than a 3,500 sqft, house on, say, 3 acres?


If you buy a brand new 40' sailboat, maintenance will be about the same as a brand new 3,500 sq/ft house. But as they begin to age, the boat maintenance will begin to take the lead over the house. Unless, of course, you bought your boat from an top quality manufacturer and your house from a hack builder.

Things that will affect needed maintenance are:
1. Original build quality
2. Regular maintenance by the previous owner(s)
3. Amount of use by the previous owner(s)
4. Type of use - was it raced hard? chartered? liveaboard? etc.
5. Seasonal usage or full time in water?
6. Has it had full sun exposure? 
6. Salt water or fresh water?
7. Possible damage from storms or through "mishaps"?
8. Has it sat for years not being used?

There are other things, for sure, but, so far, this is the list I'm using in our search.


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## johnnyquest37 (Feb 16, 2012)

Maintenance is neither time-consuming nor expensive - if you don't do it. This seems to be the motto for most of the boats in my marina. On the other hand, I tend to be pretty OCD about maintenance on my boat. I actually got rid of my house with a yard so I could spend more time on the boat. Time wise, mowing the lawn, cleaning the gutters, fixing the faucets, etc. was about equal to the time spent working on the boat.

My boat - bought it new nine years ago. Routine maintenance is routine maintenance: same requirements for an old boat or new boat - if you decide to actually do it. I spend around 20 man-hours a month doing routine maintenance/cleaning. The list of things to repair does get longer as the boat gets older, but things break even on new boats. I probably spend another 20 man hours a month on repairs, but this varies. In the last few months, my repairs included:

-- Blew out the mainsail, replacing with new one
-- Replaced the boom vang control lines 
-- Re-caulked the head bulkheads, liner, and so on.
-- Fixed a few dings in the gelcoat
-- Replaced the port navigation light (twice - it's a long story)
-- Replaced the galley faucet
-- Repaired the windex
-- Replaced two pelican clips on the lifelines
--


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## Neosec (Jun 25, 2013)

CaptainForce said:


> I can only supply a little annecdotal data, but here's a list of my most recent two month's activity on my 41' liveaboard/cruising 1973 ketch.
> 
> 1- Replace LED anchor light at masthead (ca $20)
> 2- Change oil in Yanmar & Kubota genset (ca 1.75gal of oil)
> ...


Ah, Thanks!
Seven items in two months! Then there is time for Margaritas!


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

A house and land are an awful lot of maintenance. Typically 8 -12 hours per week and several thousand dollars a year.


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## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

Ran down to the boat yesterday to take on some fuel, and pump out the holding tank.
Noticed the Float switch on the bilge pump wasn't working. Circuit checked out ok. Removed the switch inspected, found cracked casing, replaced with a new switch..works fine. $35.00 part, about an hour or so of labor. Little stuff like this happens no matter how diligent you are. Not much different than a house or a car. 

I just finished putting brakes in the truck and painting the deck at the house. 

Among my friends we have a saying " Life is one big equipment adjustment" 
The more " stuff" you have the more adjusting you have to do. 

I'm ready to sell the house, clear out the stuff...and get back to basics.


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## Neosec (Jun 25, 2013)

Wow! Thank you all for the examples and advice! Real world data is quite useful for pondering the whole boat-owning equation. I'm the DIY type through and through so I'll lean to the 10% figure. Used to work in aircraft maintenance.


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## Neosec (Jun 25, 2013)

Tempest said:


> Noticed the Float switch on the bilge pump wasn't working. Circuit checked out ok. Removed the switch inspected, found cracked casing, replaced with a new switch..works fine. $35.00 part, about an hour or so of labor.


How does a casing crack sitting in the bilge? I suspect I'd pend 80 hrs a month redesigning and building stuff for higher reliability.


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

CaptainForce said:


> I can only supply a little annecdotal data, but here's a list of my most recent two month's activity on my 41' liveaboard/cruising 1973 ketch.
> 
> 1- Replace LED anchor light at masthead (ca $20)
> 2- Change oil in Yanmar & Kubota genset (ca 1.75gal of oil)
> ...


Add to that the "prorated" costs of re-doing the bottom every few years, replacing sails, running rigging, standing rigging, et cetera every 10 years or so........

It all adds up.


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## copacabana (Oct 1, 2007)

And let's not forget the relation between boat size and maintenance costs and man hours. There is a certain point in boat size where it becomes an onerous task to keep everything tidy and working. Scraping the bottom of a 32 footer with a mask and snorkel is an hour's work or less. Doing the same on a 50 footer is a lot of work!! I had the enlightening experience of visiting a French couple's 45 foot catamaran recently. I invited them over to my boat for a beer. They said it was their "cleaning day" and they had to wash the boat and dust and clean inside first. They didn't arrive for that beer until 7 hours later!


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## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

Neosec said:


> How does a casing crack sitting in the bilge? I suspect I'd pend 80 hrs a month redesigning and building stuff for higher reliability.


Who knows. I left the mast up this winter. Water gets in to the bilge via the mast. Can't really be helped. Though, I put anti-freeze in the bilge and remove a centerboard bolt that allows water to drain out of the bilge through the centerboard trunk above a certain level. I periodically pump out any water that remains and add more anti-freeze; it's possible that there may have been a freeze thaw cycle that I missed. I should look for a better widget or process.


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

johnnyquest37 said:


> Maintenance is neither time-consuming nor expensive - if you don't do it. This seems to be the motto for most of the boats in my marina. --


:laugher:laugher:laugher:laugher:laugher

Good signature line as well!


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## johnnyquest37 (Feb 16, 2012)

T37Chef said:


> :laugher:laugher:laugher:laugher:laugher
> 
> Good signature line as well!


I support the moderators' decision to remove political tag lines. Just wish they'd remove that last remaining one...


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

I am in my 11th year as a ful time cruising liveaboard. I can roughly divide the people I see into three groups. 

Type 1 Some people buy old wooden boats with wooden masts and lots of exposed wood which is beautifully varnished and lots of complex systems like water makers, generators, complex fridge freezes and air conditioning. They do not own the boat, the boat owns them especially if they keep the varnish work in concours condition. That is fine some of them like keeping busy which is good as it will be just about a full time job with a little time left over to go sailing. If they are seen in the early morning wiping the dew of the varnish you have a type 1 for sure.

Type 2 Some people buy boats with little or no exposed wood, grp hulls and solar panels instead of generators, large tanks instead of water makers and kep the boat as simple as they can. Anything safety related like a suspect clamp on a thu hull is fixed immediately but a scrape on the topside can wait till haul out and even then only gets attended to once the bottom paint is on and the zincs changed. Type 2s do not sweat the small stuff. Other than the annual haulout they may only spend a couple of hours a week working on the boat. Of course they may have spent the last week tracking down something they needed and arranging for it's delivery. ANybody who does a fair amount of sailing say 7+ days a month tends to be a type 2. I regard myself as a type 2.

Type 3 May have any kind of boat but their watch word is "If it ain't broke don't fix it. " They rarely fix anything. Their boats often have rust streaks down the side, frayed ends to ropes and display 2 or more outboards none of which run reliably if at all. Their main engine is often U/S for long periods. When they do have to fix something it tends to be a major job. Some of their boats have really unusual repairs or adaptations. They often have a fairly large dog, a large stock of beer/rum/mind altering substances and most rarely sail if at all. Surprisingly some type 3 s manage to circumnavigate. 

Type 1s are slaves to their boats. Type 3s defer work until it is a major job and some have boats whch are at risk of sinking. They actually may spend more time on maintance work than a type 2. In my view it is best to be a type 2. The boat may be a little scruffy but it is fit to go to sea most of the time and all safety related items will be working when they do.


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## svhandy (Dec 6, 2013)

I rapidly scanned this thread from start to finish and the one line I missed was....

No matter what type of boat and what personality / maintenance style you have. the more frequent and effective your Planned Maintenance on your boat the less time you will spend fixing broken items.

Bill.


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

copacabana said:


> And let's not forget the relation between boat size and maintenance costs and man hours. There is a certain point in boat size where it becomes an onerous task to keep everything tidy and working. Scraping the bottom of a 32 footer with a mask and snorkel is an hour's work or less. Doing the same on a 50 footer is a lot of work!! I had the enlightening experience of visiting a French couple's 45 foot catamaran recently. I invited them over to my boat for a beer. They said it was their "cleaning day" and they had to wash the boat and dust and clean inside first. They didn't arrive for that beer until 7 hours later!


You got that right. There are a lot of days I wish I had my 32 footer back, instead of the 42 footer I have now.

It's rarely the sailing part of the boat that breaks. It's usually the "Winnebago" stuff that needs working on and the 42 footer has ten more feet of that stuff.


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## CaptainForce (Jan 1, 2006)

SlowButSteady said:


> Add to that the "prorated" costs of re-doing the bottom every few years, replacing sails, running rigging, standing rigging, et cetera every 10 years or so........
> 
> It all adds up.


Absolutely right! When I look back over the long term, 29 years with my current boat and over 40 total years, I come up with about $2,000/year for the prorated costs of rigging, sails & bottom jobs and another thousand/year for new motor or genset. I'm stingy with all these big purchases. I replace my own standing rigging and I've bought some sails on the used market. There are some high quality, good condition sails on the used market. So, this comes to $500/month for the expenses that are big ticket items, but sometimes many years apart. I have 6,445 hours on my very reliable and well running Yanmar 4JH3E. It's good for plenty more, but I need to be ready when the time comes.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

My take on this is that if something breaks on the house, you can turn it off, or do without, until you get around to fixing it. A leaky faucet, or broken power line isn't the end of the world. You make some calls, or grab your tools, and get it taken care of when it is convenient. On a boat, if a through hull gives out, or if the engine dies, you could be in serious trouble, depending on where you are at the time.

The Admiral and I downsized from a 4 BR, 2K sqft home with a pool (and a mortgage) on ½ an acre of land to a 2BR condo with no mortgage. Our monthly living expenses have been cut in half.

I believe in proactive maintenance, and I have strived to keep the boat SIMPLE. No racing, no wind instruments, no autopilot, no genset, two (new) batteries, new injectors, new canvas, new alternator and mounting bracket, tons of replaced/improved wiring, two new fans, new through hulls, and G10 backing plates, new bilge pumps and hoses, spare raw water pump, all new plumbing (except the water pressure pump - works like a champ), the sails have been sent out to the loft for cleaning, inspection and repair. I had the bottom soda blasted, barrier coated, and painted with 3 coats of ablative paint two years ago. I removed the teak handrails, and replaced them with stainless steel. I, just tonight, ordered a new heat exchanger. The keel was dropped, the bolts replaced, and the keel rebedded by the PO after my first survey. I believe that the boat is in better shape now, than when I bought her. 

The stuff on the boat didn't break, per se, the systems simply got to a point where I was uncomfortable relying on them, or I felt that they needed replacement, spares, or upgrading.

Overall, in the three years that I have owned her, I have spent as much on maintenance and improvement as the boat cost. And, that does not count the cost of marinas, storage, insurance, or taxes... To address the OP's question, the costs are less than the cost of keeping the house, but much higher than the maintenance fee on the condo.


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## MarioG (Sep 6, 2009)

CaptainForce Has it figured out on his boat where he knows what needs to be done now over what can wait till the next port location to get supplies. I have mine figured out to spend $1500 to $2000 a year on upgrades of repairs such as new ports to really nice used sails. You will learn to fix things on your boat as you go along you will also learn what you need, what you want for the style of boating you will be doing.

I've been aboard 3 yrs I try to keep my boat in top shape for an older boat,( fix and replace 5 min before it goes bad). and still think the cost of maintain the boat is cheaper then the house was.


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

+1 for size and complexity proportional to cost. And it isn't linear, it's geometric with size.

When we owned a 22 ft keel boat, maintenance was close to zero. Bottom paint, and we did everything ourselves.

When we owned a 52 ft boat, it had everything. ….I counted 15 electric pumps for everything from heads to sumps to fresh water to AC/fridge water condensers to…. I cannot remember more than a week when everything worked. Maintaining the boat was a full time job for me or a boat yard where you become the cash cow.

For my fellow nerds out there, lets say that an electric pump has 5 years mean time between failures. Question: how many pumps did I replace or repair annually on average? 

If you want to keep cost under control, sail the smallest, simplest boat you can stand to live on. You'll see the same sunset as the guy on the Perini Navi, and you'll have time to take a look instead of managing a yard crew or having your head in the bilge.


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## Dave_E (Aug 7, 2013)

You've heard the old saying about a boat being a hole in the water to throw $ into...

All the above answers are spot on. Here's one more angle ONLY YOU can determine (and you must do so honestly). What are YOU willing to live with? Does that rats nest wiring behind the breaker panel drive you nuts? Are you meticulous about your engine maintenance? Does the dirty sail bother you? Does the grey woodwork bother you? (does me)  These questions that only YOU can answer, will determine how much (more) you spend on your boat. Now "broke" is obvious and must be repaired. But would it have broke if...? See where this is going? 

Dave


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## Nauti Ladd (Dec 8, 2013)

Just thought I would put my "list" on for fun… I have a 1999 42' (Jeanneau) sailboat. In the last couple months I have replaced my shore power plug, added a new GFCI ($26 for a "Marine" grade with wiring at $1.50/ft) I also replaced the hot water heater and battery charger. I am not super-anal, but I want things to be safe and work. I am also "catching up" because when I bought the boat it had sat for 4 years without too much use… the death of a boat. I do have a long list of "would like to's" and am slowly working through them. My friends tease that BOAT stands for "Bring Out Another Thousand" and I certainly have spent more than I thought I would originally.

It seems like just when I get things caught up, something else breaks. Don't get me wrong, I like the challenge and a hot water heater could have gone out in a house too. I think if you are proactive, then it is not too different than a house, but that being said, none of my "normal" friends had ever done a shore-power plug, so I couldn't just call my buddy and have him come by… For the record, I do all the work myself. (So far)


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## Lurking and Looking (Sep 17, 2013)

Couple things are wrong with the way this thread is going;

1) yearly maintenance has NOTHING to do with purchase price. Paying 10k or 20k in no way shape or form says a 1 to 2k a year maintenance bill.

2) IF you are not comfortable "working" on things yourself DO NOT BUY A BOAT!!! When you go sailing to the Bahamas and get 50 miles off shore and can't fix it yourself, or at least make it so you can continue on in "limp home mode"... The Coast Guard is NOT triple AAA.

3) IF you call someone for everything that goes wrong on your boat... you boat will end up as the $10 heaps on ebay or sinking somewhere. You will eventually stop spending money on it and eventually stop spending time on it altogether.

Paying 20k on a heap just means you fell for the "used car salesman" doubletalk...

As others have pointed out many times, GET A SURVEY. That is your check list for what has to be done.

And then prepare to address what ever issue comes up when it comes up and don't put it off for another day.

If you are CONSTANTLY having things break, you are missing the true issue or you are trying to save $$$ in some way that simply is not working. "Quality" parts don't fail year after year. A boat that your life may depend on someday, is hardly the place to start buying discount parts for...

And as also has been pointed out many times in many, many places, the more systems or complex the boat is, the more it will cost to maintain. If you only plan on going sailing on the weekends, you hardly need a boat that has every electronic device known to man, 2 or 3 heads and just as many showers, fridge, freezer, air, heat, multiple autopilots and on and on... but then again people are "well my boat has..." monkeys...


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## Yorksailor (Oct 11, 2009)

Copacabana has it right I used to have a simple 31 ft tri that required minimal maintenance because it lacked 'systems' I sailed it 25 days per month and worked on it 1 day/month.

However, I love sailing with my wife, a true sailing/cruising partner who can stand her solo watch, at night, in any weather and not an 'Admiral' so we now have a 55ft boat with more systems than the 'Star Ship Enterprise and unfortunately I am no Scottie!

Sorry I have to go... I need to fix the generator, the bow thruster and rebuild a winch!!!!!!


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## luhtag (Mar 5, 2003)

The way I look at it, if you buy an old boat, you only have to fix everything once. Then you're good for a few years.


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## bigdogandy (Jun 21, 2008)

I think a couple of posters here have made good points about the relative cost of maintenance being dependant on the size and condition of the boat, as well as how susceptible the captain is to the dreaded illness called upgrade fever. I didn't fully recognize the risk for that when I bought my current boat.

I love my boat, and one of the reasons I bought it was that it was in solid enough condition for me to be able to sail her safely and happliy on day one, but being an older boat there were lots of opportunities for projects. Well, I sure haven't been disappointed in either regard. In the 6 years I've owned the boat I've spent half the amount of the original purchase price in upgrades (new portlights, autopilot, VHF, chartplotter, AIS, adding a dodger, etc.) to things I "wanted" but didn't necessarily "have to have". These things all made the boat more liveable and enjoyable, but were purely discretional.

As for the actual maintenance of the boat and her original systems, I have averaged almost $2,000 per year, or a little more than 15% of the original purchase price, and that includes having new standing rigging installed, a couple of bottom jobs, lots of new wiring, replacing all of the mast mounted lights and interior fixtures, sail repairs and cleaning, replacing bimini and sail cover, etc. If I had not spent the money on these things the boat wouldn't be seaworthy today.

Also - I love working on the boat, and I've managed to do most of this work myself, with the replacement of the standing rigging and the bottom jobs the only things I've paid the yard to do (I know, I know - I should do my own bottom painting and replacing the standing rigging is easy, but the rigging work scares me (like doing the brakes on my car - what's the worst thing that could happen if I screw something up?) and as long as I'm getting a paycheck life's too short to do the bottom paint myself).

So, if you're shopping for a boat, be careful to assess the potential costs for these two types of cost issues.


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## olysux (Feb 17, 2014)

good info


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

Lurking and Looking said:


> 2) IF you are not comfortable "working" on things yourself DO NOT BUY A BOAT!!! When you go sailing to the Bahamas and get 50 miles off shore and can't fix it yourself, or at least make it so you can continue on in "limp home mode"... The Coast Guard is NOT triple AAA.
> 
> .


I agree. There are only two kinds of people who should own boats.

One, the self reliant kind who likes to learn new skills, and whose first thought when something goes wrong, is to roll up his sleeves, get out his tools and fix it.

The second kind is the multi-millionaire, who has completely unlimited funds for flying people and parts into where ever he is, whenever something breaks.


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

there is a third kind...
those of us out here doing it for not a lot of money.
each boat and each owner is different. 
each boat takes a different amount of money to maintain. each owner spends a different amount of money for same repairs..lol that is the fun of this.
you can figger anything out from the safety and warmth of an office and desk. 
it is a whole different story once you are living the lifestyle in reality.
i have yet to find the reality, alleged, of many of the prices you guys come up with for repairing stuff. 
my costs are and have been so much less yet excellent repairs have been done. 
of course there is the unmentionable repair guy here who will not repair an engine for less than 10,000 usd..lol.....i found better for much much less...lol but that is another story...i dont use the scam artists posing as repair guys..i did fall once, but there aint gonna be a second time, thankyou.

in many places there are native souls who do repairs better than that ****** scammer...lol... and machine shops and motor rewinders shops and everything...omy they even have electronix and repair thereof.... wow... dont have to "limp home"-- fix as you travel.


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

zeehag said:


> there is a third kind...
> those of us out here doing it for not a lot of money.
> each boat and each owner is different.
> each boat takes a different amount of money to maintain. each owner spends a different amount of money for same repairs..lol that is the fun of this.
> ...


The only two things I have had to get someone else to repair was recharging the AC ($160) and flashing the generator ($250 - his minimum charge although it only took him ten minutes to do it) and sewing a rip in my mainsail ($70 because I just didn't feel like sewing it by hand myself, but I could have because I've done it before) . I can now flash the generator myself, but I'll still call an HVAC guy next time the AC needs work.

Everything else, I figure out myself. I do have the advantage of having a really good marine engine mechanic's phone number who has talked me through some interesting repairs (I watched him repair a burned out starter from loose pieces of wire he had in his tool box). 

But, I've been running less than new boats my whole life, and there are few things that can break on one, that I haven't seen break. And, I grew up on a farm, where my Dad pretty much made us fix anything we broke.


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

i would love to be able to continue doing by self...but hands are deteriorating noticeably, so i need to farm some stuff out....
so far my complete rebuild is under 900 usdollars,and i only still need parts...the rebuild kit of whatever sort and sleeves and gasket kit...
unfortunately we have no stamped/imprinted engine numbers to deal with....and my book is not identical to my engine....so we looking all over mexico and wherever else we need to look...
injector pump rebuild was three items rebuilt and rebuilder charged me 2975 pesos..lol lift, injector pump plus rebuild the heat exchanger for transmission.


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

I've owned badly maintained old, slightly maintained old, brand new, and now a so-so maintained older lady. 

Every one of them took as much as I had and good have used more; and until now other than warranty work on the new boat I've never hired out any of it. 
I have a basic visceral level need to know how to fix everything on board, and to know when to fix it.

Pulling the rig on a 38 footer and replacing it and the chain plates, not in my list of abilities. I'm pulling the plates and doing the grunt labor of grinding, epoxying and fairing the new ones in but only because my work will be checked by professionals. I'll be doing all the fiberglass and wood joinery work to rebuild the inside (the plates on an Irwin are embedded in the hull). I can't bear the thought of paying someone 100 an hour to splooge epoxy on and then sand/grind it to shape and fair. 
Especially when that someone is a kid I saw working at the grocery store this past winter who is obviously yard help / a summer hire. 

I've had cruisers stop in at my dock for days, and sometimes weeks so they can catch up on maintenance and allow mail order stuff to catch up so they can do that maintenance. I've had locals drop in for a day and do the same. Maintenance and or upgrades never end nor should they.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

Most mornings are spent doing boat chores of some kind or another. If you don't like messing about in boats you won't like voyaging.


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

aeventyr60 said:


> Most mornings are spent doing boat chores of some kind or another. If you don't like messing about in boats you won't like voyaging.


Or anything else on them. A couple I know delivered boats for 20 years, everything from broken down sailboats, to brand new yachts straight from the factory. Their favorite saying was that they learned that they could be delivering a 30 year old, broken down Chris Craft, or a million dollar yacht, straight from the factory, and the odds of something important breaking seemed to be about even.


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## Bejasus (May 23, 2009)

capecodda said:


> If you want to keep cost under control, sail the smallest, simplest boat you can stand to live on. You'll see the same sunset as the guy on the Perini Navi, and you'll have time to take a look instead of managing a yard crew or having your head in the bilge.


Trust me, the guy on the Perini Navi won't be caring about the costs. If he did, he wouldn't have a Perini Navi.


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

To quote BlJones : "In any event, a good solid rule of thumb is to allow 20% of the purchase budget for immediate maintenance, then set aside that amount every year for ongoing stuff.
you may not use it some years, in which case you can shuffle those funds over to the "improvements" budget, which , for some reason, always seems to run short."

I can't offer better advice than this. I bought my 40K boat 3 years ago, and spent 25% in the first year, 20% in the second, and 15% in the third. That's for maintenance and upgrades, doing most things myself, but I paid for bottom work and a re-rig. The boat's essentially had a partial refit.

I expect the long term expense to level out at 10 to 15% per year, that's for maintenance, including a haulout for bottom paint every 2 years (and something else always seems to pop up), and the odd upgrade. 

At some point in the future the dreaded engine replacement is likely... better have saved up some funds by then!

So far, the boat has appreciated slightly, or is at least holding its value.


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

Another thing to keep in mind is that the more mechanical stuff you have on a boat, the more maintenance is required.

The two biggest items to maintain on my boat, cost and trouble wise, have been my diesel generator, and my air conditioning, two things that are definitely luxuries rather than necessities.

The greatest thing, graded by the value provided, versus amount of maintenance required, have been my two Kyocera solar panels. Zero maintenance (although I did remount them after a year, but it wasn't really necessary, I just came up with a better idea). They just keep making electricity, and all they seem to ever need is an occasional hosing off with fresh water.


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

Group9 said:


> Another thing to keep in mind is that the more mechanical stuff you have on a boat, the more maintenance is required.
> 
> The two biggest items to maintain on my boat, cost and trouble wise, have been my diesel generator, and my air conditioning, two things that are definitely luxuries rather than necessities.
> 
> The greatest thing, graded by the value provided, versus amount of maintenance required, have been my two Kyocera solar panels. Zero maintenance (although I did remount them after a year, but it wasn't really necessary, I just came up with a better idea). They just keep making electricity, and all they seem to ever need is an occasional hosing off with fresh water.


exactly why i dont have built in air cond..a window unit is less care and i can suffer the indignities of looking like granny klampetts old boat.....lol
and i havent NEEDED a generator in 4 years .. go figger.....


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

I think some people are being pretty pessimistic about the annual costs. Our maintenance budget is nowhere near 10% of our purchase price, let alone 20%. Note that this does not include upgrades like new sails but we have only spent $13k on new sails (including brand new ones to go) in 35k miles. Perhaps the 20% rule (or 10%) works with smaller boats where the purchase price is low but the cost of oil, antifouling, etc is relatively high. By the fixed percentage rule, someone buying and refitting a boat for $500k will spend $50k to $100k a year on maintenance?!? Not happening at all. I would be surprised if the first year's maintenance was $5000 (1%). As the years proceed, it will go up, but only slowly.

BTW, in all these estimates I am assuming owner-maintenance. Paying for everything could cost a ton of money.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

I bought my current boat for $115k. I keep track of most money I spend on boating and my repair/maintenance costs doing all the labor myself the past 3 years have been:

2011 - $878
2012 - $3458
2013 - $1978

All it takes is an electronic thingie to go bad to made a big increase (like an autopilot).

But it really are the small everyday very low cost maintenance things that keep stuff from becoming big problems. This morning while walking the topsides and inspecting the rig I found one of my mast struts had split. I figure that will cost me a couple hundred dollars to fix, but if I hadn't found it I could have lost the whole standing rig. Leaks are probably the best example of staying on top of stuff, fixing a new small leak is cheap compared to the cost of repairing the damage of letting a leak continue.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

killarney_sailor said:


> I think some people are being pretty pessimistic about the annual costs. Our maintenance budget is nowhere near 10% of our purchase price, let alone 20%. Note that this does not include upgrades like new sails but we have only spent $13k on new sails (including brand new ones to go) in 35k miles. Perhaps the 20% rule (or 10%) works with smaller boats where the purchase price is low but the cost of oil, antifouling, etc is relatively high. By the fixed percentage rule, someone buying and refitting a boat for $500k will spend $50k to $100k a year on maintenance?!? Not happening at all. I would be surprised if the first year's maintenance was $5000 (1%). As the years proceed, it will go up, but only slowly.
> 
> BTW, in all these estimates I am assuming owner-maintenance. Paying for everything could cost a ton of money.


No one has ever had to cut their cruise short, or sell their boat, because they UNDERbudgeted maintenance. However, the opposite is all too common.

in the context of this thread we're not talking about $500K sailboats. Hell, this is sailnet, do we EVER talk about $500K sailboats?

The "how much will it cost" question is a greenhorn question, and is often accompanied by a search for the biggest possible boat for the least amount of money. it behooves those of us who have been there, done that, to err on the side of caution when it comes to costs.


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## Yorksailor (Oct 11, 2009)

We have a 55 ft boat with lots of systems. The boat is 30 yrs old but was refitted 14 yrs ago. It is a full time live aboard, on average we sail 5,000 nm/yr and we have been getting ready for a Pacific crossing. So far this year we have done the following maintenance and I do about 75% of the general work.

New main sail................................................................$4,500
Repairs on jib and genoa..................................................$1,000
Haul out and bottom job..................................................$1,500
Spare raw water pump for main engine...............................$1,000
Generator parts and repairs..............................................$1,500
New foot blocks for genoa/spinnaker and labor help to fit.......$1,000
Parts and labor bowthruster.............................................$1,200
Oil changes, filters etc....................................................$ 300
Water maker membranes and parts....................................$1,500
New Dinghy...................................................................$4,500

That is $18,000 or about 7% of value and it is only June! While the dinghy and main are long term buys everything on the boat has a 5 to 15 year lifespan so if you want to maintain the boat you have to replace what breaks. 

Insurance is $6,500 and that gets us up to almost $25,000 a year to run a $260,000 boat! I used to have a 31 ft tri without any systems and it cost me $1,000/yr to sail 200+ days/yr but she did not have agenerator, A/C, water maker or a washer/drier!!!

I am sure many cruisers have simpler and less expensive boats. I used to have a 31 ft tri without any systems and it cost me $1,000/yr to sail 200+ days/yr but she did not have a generator, A/C, water maker or a washer/drier and she was very uncomfortable in 20 ft seas!

If my arithmetic is inaccurate it is because I usually do not add up the cost so as to prevent psychological damage!


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

If my arithmetic is inaccurate it is because I usually do not add up the cost so as to prevent psychological damage!


Yea, me too! I plead guilty to this one!


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

Yorksailor said:


> We have a 55 ft boat with lots of systems. The boat is 30 yrs old but was refitted 14 yrs ago. It is a full time live aboard, on average we sail 5,000 nm/yr and we have been getting ready for a Pacific crossing. So far this year we have done the following maintenance and I do about 75% of the general work.
> 
> New main sail................................................................$4,500
> Repairs on jib and genoa..................................................$1,000
> ...


Yes, the more amenities you have onboard, the higher the cost:

FYI.... we bought this CT for $240K, which I could easily claim was $40K too much, i.e., more than I wanted to pay - I tried real hard to stick to $200K, especially considering that right away we had to replace, rebuild or install:

1. New refrigerator & freezer compressors and everything. $3K
2. Fix the badly leaking hydraulic steering.
3. New shower plumbing, for both showers.
4. redesign rebuild the helm: remove the giant stupid box containing all the gauges etc., (half of which no longer worked), which obstructed the view, and replace the wheel.
5. Replace every single line, all halyards, etc., on deck. $$$
6. Have all the sails repaired. $3.5K
7. Replace every single door knob - at $300 ea. X 7
8. Rebuild / replace every single interior light. $$$
9. Replace all the soft goods, $15K in leather & 2 recliners.
10. Rebuild and replace the 2 AC / heating units ($5K & $2K)
11. Rebuild the watermaker $4K
12. Replace all ground tackle. (still in process - buying a Mantus and a Fortress)
13. Add a new arch to support a new center cockpit dinghy. Arch: $3K Dinghy $12K
14. Lots of interior wiring, circuit breakers, etc.
15. Addressing some leaking issues - skuppers all bad.
16. New hatch hardware.
17. Repair the AC plug to the ice maker to stop using an extension cord.
18. Replace the microwave.
19. Repair the LP gas solenoid etc.
20. Replace all the dock lines. $450
21. Repair the washer - plumbing, electrical, and fix it.
22. Repair the running lights - shorting out, etc.
23. Replace all interior fans.
24. Replace all interior curtains.
25. Replace electric toilet motors, and address clogged output hose in aft head.
26. Remove the stupid Cetol coating on the teak deck! Bizarre!!
27. Install a battery charger and rewire and add new batteries.
28. Install 2 TV monitors.

Plus MANY smaller projects too many to list....

Plus still need:

1. Replace the autohelm with a modern one.
2. Fix the 8K diesel generator..... (electrical issues)
3. Replace the obsolete / not working solar panels.
4. Upgrade the navigation gauges - the really old B&G ones either don't work or suck.
5. Need new compass, and one with a light would be nice.
6. A bow thruster would be wonderful.

etc., etc.......

So, boats cost some serious money, either now or later.


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## night0wl (Mar 20, 2006)

In my calculations, i just bucketize all things boat...including insurance, haulouts upgrades, repairs and even boat slips. If you're looking STRICTLY on break-fix, upgrade, and preventative maintenance, its probably less than the 10% purchase price per annum...but not by much when you truly amortize the costs of major items like sails and engines (I set aside reserves monthly for eventual sail upgrades...and engine too).


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

zeehag said:


> exactly why i dont have built in air cond..a window unit is less care and i can suffer the indignities of looking like granny klampetts old boat.....lol
> and i havent NEEDED a generator in 4 years .. go figger.....


What is truly 'needed' and what is appreciated / enjoyed are clearly 2 entirely different things.

We enjoy setting the thermostat(s) to the temperature we want and having the warm or cool air (per the season) distributed evenly throughout the boats' duct work.
We enjoy all the devices we can use whenever anchored / moored by having a generator, like a washer / dryer, TVs, hot water, *battery charger*, microwave, computers, cell phones, etc., etc.
We enjoy not having an AC unit sticking out of a hatch while cruising.

So, there IS a wide range of ways to enjoy life; on land and on the ocean.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

i am going to add my two cents. you are right about boat maintenance being like house maintenance. however, you are fooling yourself about the real cost of house maintenance. most people only fix the things that stop working or have deteriorated beyond the point of tolerance. most people accept flaws and wear in a house.

the same is true on a boat. as all have said, a lot depends on the initial condition of your boat and your expectations. you say you shouldn't buy a boat because having something not in perfect condition would drive you batty but, have you ever really examined your house through a contractor's eyes and seen just how many flaws it has?

the minute something is done being built, it begins to deteriorate. it is only in perfect condition for a few hours. buy a new house and by the 11 month walk through you will be pointing out drywall cracks that need fixed. that's the way of the world, my friend. you just have to accept that.

some things you will have to fix. some things you will want to fix. some things you will deal with til they become things you have to fix. improvements are the same way. some things you will feel compelled to improve and some things you won't.

life has costs in effort and money, no matter how you look at it. if you begrudge the costs of boat, or house, maintenance, it means you really don't care about either that much. most folks love their boats and, although they gripe or joke about the expenses and work, they gladly put forth the effort and find the funds. take it from a broke guy restoring a $300 boat.


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