# Telstar 28 PHRF rating??



## Pathfinder (Feb 12, 2020)

Hello everyone! This year I purchased a Telstar 28 trimaran and am racing it at my club. Unfortunately we have not found any data for a PHRF on this design and are trying to make it up/narrow it down. Does anyone out there possibly have ratings that they have used at their clubs for this vessel?? Or know someone I could reach out to? Thanks in advance!


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## paulk (Jun 2, 2000)

Don't know how your boat compares to the Corsair lineup, but they have this chart for their boats:https://www.regattanetwork.com/clubmgmt/regatta_uploads/11954/SBMRRatingsandAdjustments.pdf
If you can find something that's similar to yours it might help you find the ballpark, at least. Trimarans in PHRF are not easy.


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## Pathfinder (Feb 12, 2020)

paulk said:


> Don't know how your boat compares to the Corsair lineup, but they have this chart for their boats:https://www.regattanetwork.com/clubmgmt/regatta_uploads/11954/SBMRRatingsandAdjustments.pdf
> If you can find something that's similar to yours it might help you find the ballpark, at least. Trimarans in PHRF are not easy.


Yeah, unfortunately the Telstar is nowhere near comparable to a Corsair or Dragonfly. The Telstar is more a "cruiser" than a "performance" boat.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I logged into the US Sailing site and checked the PHRF rating list,. It does not appear that a Telestar has ever been assigned a PHRF rating. That is not surprising. Generally, most PHRF regions do not assign PHRF ratings for multihulls. It is almost impossible to rate a multihull fairly against a monohull since their performance differences are so non-linear. Many regions do have multi-hull racing associations that assign ratings either under the Portsmouth Numbers, or under some system unique to the region. On the Chesapeake, for example, CMA has its own rating rule system. 

Unless you live in a region with a PHRF that rates multi's or which has a multihull association, it does not sound like racing your Telstar is in your future. 

Jeff


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## sailjumanji (Dec 6, 2000)

OMG people, "PHRF regions do not assigned PHRF rating for multihulls?" I guess no one has heard of Bay Area Multihull Association (California), Lake Michigan PHRF, ORCA, New England Multihull Association, Florida, Texas Offshore Multihull Association - just among a few that have historically published multihull PHRF ratings in US Sailing. And there is a US Sailing Multihull PHRF rating committee as well. I have not been active in US Sailing for some time, but have been on Corsair and/or TOMA PHRF rating committees for the last 20 years.

Yes, it is very difficult to rate light multihulls vs monohulls, as the performance varies widely with wind speed. The issues are not any different, as an example, in trying to rate a sport boat against a heavy-displacement monohull. At TOMA, we have a relatively-active group of multihulls that PHRF rate anywhere from -51 sec/nm (Corsair 31-1D) to the mid 100's (cruising cats). For large regattas, we divide up into fleets based on handicap window. It's typically the same as done in the monohull program.

And I know of at least one racing organization that holds regattas with both multihull and monohull entries racing together. It's a relatively-small group, and they do it because they would rather have the larger turnout. And as expected, when the wind pipes up, the multihulls tend to finish ahead. When they have typical, 10 knot winds, their ratings are set to provide for very competitive finishes.

I am on the TOMA rating committee. We have 40-50 boats rated over the years, and anywhere from six to 20 will come out for a regatta. We are the rating authority for Canyon Lake, Lake Travis, and Galveston Bay multihull racing, as well as the 150 nm Harvest Moon regatta in the Gulf of Mexico. Our ratings are performance based, and we don't rate skippers or crew. We measure and certify sails, generally try to weigh or estimate weight for the smaller boats, and use some modified MOCRA prediction formulas that are grounded in race results. And we evaluated a lot of race data. 

TOMA does not have a Telstar in its fleet. The last rating list I have for US Sailing is 2013, and it lists a "Telstar 8M" at 180 sec/nm, as rated by BAMA. I checked their website, and that boat does not have a current certificate. That said, I have issue with US Sailing's PHRF's as there is no record of what sails are included in the rating. My guess is that at 180 PHRF it is a JAM (jib and main) rating.

Where are you located anyway? Are you racing with a multihull group?


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## sailjumanji (Dec 6, 2000)

West Florida PHRF has ratings published for two Telstar 28's: Valid Certificates List - West Florida PHRF, Inc. I am not sure what the two ratings are - the slower might be non-spinnaker. We have a windward-leeward rating, and a distance rating (that includes reaching leg, and associated sails). I would contact them and they will probably provide the rating certificates for you. (The links to the cert's appear to be broken.) The other thing is to have your local PHRF rating authority look at the list and determine if the other boats are similar to how you would rate them. It may be necessary to shift the fleet numbers to match your local numbers.


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## sailjumanji (Dec 6, 2000)

Oh, and you will notice that West Florida PHRF assigns ratings for both monohulls and multihulls. They are not limited to either.

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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

sailjumanji said:


> OMG people, "PHRF regions do not assigned PHRF rating for multihulls?" I guess no one has heard of Bay Area Multihull Association (California), Lake Michigan PHRF, ORCA, New England Multihull Association, Florida, Texas Offshore Multihull Association - just among a few that have historically published multihull PHRF ratings in US Sailing. And there is a US Sailing Multihull PHRF rating committee as well. I have not been active in US Sailing for some time, but have been on Corsair and/or TOMA PHRF rating committees for the last 20 years.
> Where are you located anyway? Are you racing with a multihull group?


First of all, if you are going to quote me, at least quote me accurately. What I actually said was "Generally, most PHRF regions do not assign PHRF ratings for multihulls." I still stand by that. I base that in large part on the US Sailing, US PHRF published "HISTORY OF US PHRF® AFFILIATED FLEET HANDICAPS " PHRF Handicaps - US Sailing

That book lists all official PHRF ratings ever assigned in PHRF affiliated fleets. That book pretty much lists all PHRF ratings that have been assigned over a 30 year period of time. If you look at the Section 2 dealing with Multihull ratings, even if you look across all of the most popular classes of multihull (Corsairs, Farriers, Dragonflies, Stillettos etc.) shown in the PHRF Red and Blue book, there are in total 10 regions listed. That is 10 regions out of the 50 PHRF regions that existed during the period covered by the book. In other words, most PHRF regions have not assigned PHRF ratings for multihulls.

I am located on the Chesapeake and active in the Chesapeake Short-handed Sailing Society (CHESSS) and we have members who have tried unsuccessfully to get PHRF of the Chesapeake to assign a PHRF rating to their multihull. The majority of multihulls on the Chesapeake that race, do so using the CMA rating (Chesapeake Multihull Association, and the CMA does not correspond to PHRF in any way), or they race using a Portsmouth Number when that scoring method is available. The same was true when I lived in Florida. (Granted that is quite a few years ago and so it may have changed) On the west coast of Florida, the majority of racing multi's raced under a Gulf Coast Multihull Association rating system, which again did not correspond to PHRF ratings, but which was scored in a similar manner. Pretty much the same was true when I lived and raced in Georgia.

I do stand corrected on one point, There are two listings in Section 2 for the Telstar 8 M that date back to 1996 and 1998. I was looking at the current list of certificates when I did not find any PHRF ratings for the Telstar. Here are the two published historic PHRF ratings:
Telstar 8M
Bama 180 A 96
San Francisco 180 A 98
I did not see the West Florida PHRF inc. listings on that paqe so they may either be newer than the Red and Blue book, referring to the historic data, or have issued 'unofficial' ratings.

Jeff


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## sailjumanji (Dec 6, 2000)

Ok, Jeff, I misunderstood your comment. I apologize.

Just FYI, for our large multihulls - the cruising cats - we've tried to keep our PHRF ratings on par with the monohull fleet. The problem area is the light weight trimarans, where performance in 10 knots of wind might be displacement, but 12 knots is planing. Takes a lot more wind than that to get a cruising cat planing - typically reef conditions - so the mono vs cat performance is equitable thru a larger range of wind speed.

We also correspond with other rating authorities as we have trailerable boats that do Texas, Florida and Grest Lakes events. 

Might be surprising, but the largest fleet growth we are seeing is the large multihulls. Whereby ten years ago they were racing mostly JAM, now we see asymmetric spins, Code 0's, screachers, carbon sails - and a much more competitive group.

Finally US Sailing gets their multihull PHRF ratings by canvassing the local authorities for ratings. Again, my issue with them is the lack of data associated with the rating. For instance, a boat with square top main, spinnaker and screacher rates a lot faster than a JAM boat with pinhead main. Theres no way to differentiate that from the simple US Sailing tables.

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## Pathfinder (Feb 12, 2020)

sailjumanji said:


> OMG people, "PHRF regions do not assigned PHRF rating for multihulls?" I guess no one has heard of Bay Area Multihull Association (California), Lake Michigan PHRF, ORCA, New England Multihull Association, Florida, Texas Offshore Multihull Association - just among a few that have historically published multihull PHRF ratings in US Sailing. And there is a US Sailing Multihull PHRF rating committee as well. I have not been active in US Sailing for some time, but have been on Corsair and/or TOMA PHRF rating committees for the last 20 years.
> 
> Yes, it is very difficult to rate light multihulls vs monohulls, as the performance varies widely with wind speed. The issues are not any different, as an example, in trying to rate a sport boat against a heavy-displacement monohull. At TOMA, we have a relatively-active group of multihulls that PHRF rate anywhere from -51 sec/nm (Corsair 31-1D) to the mid 100's (cruising cats). For large regattas, we divide up into fleets based on handicap window. It's typically the same as done in the monohull program.
> 
> ...


I'm sailing at the Western Carolina Sailing Club on Lake Hartwell, SC. I'm not a hardcore racer but my club has put together a series of distance races for the cruising fleet with a pursuit start (some "race" boats like J22 etc, even a Corsair I believe a 23' or 24' also participate). So it's a really mixed fleet. I've always enjoyed participating normally sailing solo in the past on my monohulls and have done very well even with my old sails and such beating out crewed boats with better equipment. But I purchased Telstar and so far I'm not coming close to winning anything with the PHRF rating that they gave me at 140. They're bumping it up to 153 but I still don't believe it's nowhere near high enough. I want to be competitive but it's not even close. Initially they wanted to rate me sub 100 like a Corsair but I'm no where near the speed of a Corsair. His Corsair whoops the J22 every time, and I can't even keep pace with the J22... I'm close but not there. I'm thinking I'm in the mid to low 170's. The design and drag that this boat has is great for stability and yes it hits into double digits for speed at times but it's no performance/racing design. Even the older models of Telstar are quite different in their design. So I really don't know how they compare to the "newer" Telstar 28. Just trying to come up with more supporting evidence to relay to the individuals responsible for creating my rating.


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## sailjumanji (Dec 6, 2000)

I gave you a link to two rating certificates, and Jeff H gave you US Sailing ratings. Get it all together and present it to your local authority. 

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