# Opinions on Helms 25



## kwaltersmi (Aug 14, 2006)

I have an opportunity to buy a Helms 25 with trailer for $900 (or less). I'm basically looking for something that I can fix up over the next year and turn into a decent first boat and weekend getaway.

Here's what I know about the Helms 25 from the owner:

"We have a 25 foot Helms sailboat with extra large cockpit and cabin. It has a drop keel, and double axle trailer. It has a mainsail, jib, genoa, and spinnaker. Some sails need some patching. Interior cushions are ok, but old. Boat is in very serviceable shape, but needs some work. We would like $900 for the boat."

Any opinions on Helms sailboats or this boat in particular?

Thanks!


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## kwaltersmi (Aug 14, 2006)

Here's a quick update on the boat description/condition after having checked it out this afternoon:

Sails: The storm jib appears to be in good shape. The spinnaker, mainsail and genoa all have 1 or more golfball size holes (probably from a rodent chewing).

The electrical system in the boat appears to be in very poor condition and will need to be replaced.

The cushions all need to be replaced.

The double axel trailer looks a little rough. I'm concerned about the wheel bearings.

The good: The hull and deck appear to be in good shape.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Hmmm... low-cost or free boats are often very expensive propositions... that's why they're low-cost or free in the first place. 

It can often cost more to bring the low-cost or free boat up to sailing condition than it would to have bought one that was in decent shape to begin with. The sails for a boat that size will be at least $1000 for new sails—assuming you want all three. The electrical system can add up to a lot of money fairly quickly, especially given the recent increases in the price of copper and wire in general, even if you do the work yourself. The cushions and upholstery aren't exactly cheap either.


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

kwalter,
I nearly purchased a helms 27 a year ago, and tried to research them without much success. What I did learn, however, is that the maker, Helms, wanted to make a "better Catalina." In my opinion, he didn't succeed, but I think they are well regarded for what they are. The H27 I saw was going for $12,000, and was in great shape. Minor osmosis, new sails, new running and standing rigging. Having recently purchased a boat (which I love), I'd definitely have it surveyed by someone who knows what they're doing, and who has no conflicts of interest. One thing I've learned over the past year is that some boats are actually worth less than $0. What I mean is that over time you'll see that it's a screwed up mess, and that you want something else. The problem: You won't be able to get rid of it because no one wants to buy it. Just have it surveyed, even if it costs you a third of what the boat costs.


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## knotaloud (Jul 6, 2007)

Hey, I like a good deal as much as the next guy, and $900 is pretty cheap for a boat on trailer, but I gotta go with the flow and say don't do it. Here's a realistic breakdown of the minimum requirements just to get it in the water, (if you go as cheap as possible):

$150 used jib
$300 used main (if you can find a used one)
$500 used outboard (I assume it has no motor?)
$150 new lines (sheets, dock, Halyards)
$100 Battery
$75 Charger
$150 Wire and parts to get lights working
$100 Coast Guard required safety gear (pfd's , horn, vhf, flare, etc)
$125 Anchor and ancillaries 
$100 Wheel bearings
$100 Sales tax on boat
$100 Boat registration
$50 Trailer Registration
$100 Insurance
$900 Purchase price

I'm sure there's lots more, but I'm already up to almost $3000. You do the math.


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## kwaltersmi (Aug 14, 2006)

Thanks for the replies (and keep 'em coming!).

I agree with this statement: "There's nothing more expensive than a cheap boat". 

However, my current budget will only allow a small purchase and lots of sweat equity. It's either buy now and sail a bit by next summer or wait 2+ more years to save up. 

There must be someone out there who is of the opinion that "Hey, it's less $1000. Go for it!" I can always eject (sell it/dump it) if I find it's going to cost too much. But I honestly think I can get it in seaworthy for not much money. That probably means I'll be patching the old sails and living without cushions for a while, but I'll be sailing and learning.


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## knotaloud (Jul 6, 2007)

kwaltersmi said:


> Thanks for the replies (and keep 'em coming!).
> 
> I agree with this statement: "There's nothing more expensive than a cheap boat".
> 
> ...


Okay, "Go for it!", but at lease ponder why the current owner is "dumping it", and don't say we didn't warn ya!


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## Tartan34C (Nov 21, 2006)

I don’t think anybody is going to encourage you to do this. You can find better boats for the same money if you look around a bit. That boat is lightly built to put it politely and has problems because of the balsa core in the deck just for a start. You will spend much more then the boat is worth and have a so so boat after you are done. To put the same time and money into a boat that has lasting value so you can recover some of your investment is a better choice.

Now having said that if you want to do this and don’t care about the money then go for and have fun. After all when you spend money for a vacation its money spent with no return and this will be the same thing. You will spend lots of money and just have memories afterwards.
All the best,
Robert Gainer

Edit. I was wrong and Knotaloud is brave enough to recommend the project. I wonder if he will feel bad after this turns out to be a mistake. VBG


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## kwaltersmi (Aug 14, 2006)

Thanks again for the replies! I know the wise the decision is to pass on the boat. But there's also a part of me that wants the challenge and enjoyment of cleaning up and old run down boat. I'll keep you posted on the decision.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Good luck if you get it... however, I still feel that getting a different boat would probably be the less expensive solution in the long run.


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## jumaggafanny (Jul 20, 2007)

I own a 25 ft Helms 1975. I would check around the foredeck for soft spots seems like 3 or 4 other Helmsies have had problems with softness. I drilled out over 200 spots on my hull to eliminate the core wetting issue at every fastner and found water intrusion to the degree of discoloring the wood only under the primary winches. 
You may notice the cockpit has scuppers aft on the pop top model and forward (not better IMHO) on the non camper. 
I've been pleased with mine and will answer any further questions you have if you buy.
David Applegate
[email protected]
Helms's 25 "CHIMERA"


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## kwaltersmi (Aug 14, 2006)

I took the plunge and bought the boat. 

So far I've powerwashed the hull and deck, striped the interior of all the old hardware and junk, clean out the bilge and have begun to paint the cabin.

I don't plan to launch her until mid-summer of 2008. 

I'll post some pictures soon if anyone is interested in what $400 buys.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Congrats I think... Good luck with it..


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## kwaltersmi (Aug 14, 2006)

I've started a web blog of our restoration. If you're interested, the blog can be viewed here: http://www.sailblogs.com/member/dreambegins/


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## Zogumwesterly (Jul 24, 2007)

*Helms 25*

I can't say much about helms cruising boats, but I did own a scow(Y-Flyer) that Jack helms built in lexington south carolina. this boat was about 35 years old when I sold it and it was still winning races. In the early days at helms he built all his own hardware camcleats(advanced for the time) his own blocks some of which were ball bearing, he was even had his own spar sections extruded and tapered them himself. That boat was built from aircraft grade plywood. He definitely payed attention to detail. But my experience tells me that boat deals work on a scale of diminishing return so you might expect to spend a lot on your boat.

Peace and Good luck
briggs


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## kwaltersmi (Aug 14, 2006)

So far so good. I've gutted the interior of the boat and am slowly repainting, restoring, and refitting the cabin. My goal is to finish up most of the cabin by the end of this season and then work on the exterior (deck, hull, rigging) early next spring.


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## Wayne25 (Jul 26, 2006)

*Helms 25*

kwaltersmi:

I bought my 1976 Helms 25 about a year ago. I sail in Delaware and this was a Peroia, Ill fresh water boat. It was complete with original trailer and a good condition 15 hp outboard. One main and 2 head sails that are old but clean and not torn but stretched out from age. Had a survey done on the deck before buying. PO put new bearings and lights on the trailer. Bought it for $5000. Going price for good condition 1976 Helms 25. 
The reason I picked a Helms 25 was for the ballasted fixed keel with a draft of 20". It also has a 300# centerboard with a 6' draft all the way down. The air draft is 33.5' which allows me to get under 3 35' bridges in my waterways. I really like this boat. It points well, handles rough weather ok, has a large cockpit for day sailing. Its not the fastest boat on the bay with my old sails. Mine is a popup which added a lot of head room when at anchor. For my use in shallow bays, I think it is a nice choice.
I'm curious why Tartan34C thinks it lightly built. I'm not an expert and would want to keep an eye out in the areas you think are marginal. Can you point them out for us? I know the bulsa cored deck has to be kept dry, but that's true of all bulsa cored decks of that age.

Wayne


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Thats a fantastic bargain. All boats are expensive to maintain. At least that one is almost free to buy.

A friend brought a Helms 25 all the way down from the Rochester area to launch it near the cottage I had at the time on LIS. I had a Cal 25 there in a slip. He launched it and rigged it up for the great race. 

Too bad for him that there was just about no air and I had a 165 genny on the Cal and we caught some whisper of air and sailed off. 

Thinking back on the thousands of $$$$ that I paid for the Cal that Helms is a gift. No yard storage either!


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