# Is a marine survey really worth it for an inexpensive boat?



## matthewwhill (Dec 10, 2012)

Hi

I am looking at 24-25 foot used sailboats (San Juan, Catalina, Coronado, Kent Ranger). The asking prices are $2000-$4000. Most of my sailing will be in the Seattle lakes, and occasionally I'd like to take it out on the sound. Ultimately trips to the San Juan Islands etc are the goal.

All have been in the water for 40 years, are currently sailing and have dry bilges.

With a haul-out and the cost of an inspection that could easily be 25-50% of a potential purchase price.

I have or will actually sail the boats in a sea trial. I will confirm that all electronics, motor, sails, rigging are as advertised.

My question is: is it really necessary. I take as a given that the boats will require some work.

Thanks


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

This can be a tough call. If you know what you're looking for and don't need to finance/insure the boat then a survey may represent an unnecessary expense esp for a very simple, uncomplicated boat such as some of the examples you cite.

But in many cases this type of purchase will be a first boat.. if you end up paying $3-4 K for a real POS then you stand to lose the whole $4K (plus associated costs)... whereas a survey would/should have detected the issues and cost you only 6-700 and left you much the wiser.

If in fact you need to insure the boat, or finance it, those institutions may insist on a survey.

But it can be a hard pill to swallow... at the very least try to get an experienced owner to tag along and filter out the real dogs... no one wants to buy 3 or 4 surveys before finding the 'right one'.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

> electronics, motor, sails, rigging are as advertised.


Are you qualified to tell if the hull is ok? Can you check for moisture, rsut at chainplates Thats as or more important than the above.

IMHO, Since your cost is not a lot a full survey may not be necessary and a quick look over by a surveyor may suffice. At the very least find someone who knows boats with experience to look it over. There are many Sailnetters in your area who may be willing to do that.

If you dont have the expertise to know what you are loooking at or for it is a good person who asks for help. Not saying you are dumb...just maybe have had the time to develope the knowledge or experience yet. In two years after owning a boat that will change somewhat although we are always learning from each other.

dave


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## aeaston (Aug 5, 2011)

I had a Tanzer 22 for 3 years which I never had surveyed. Towards the end, I had to switch insurance companies, because they suddenly required a survey for the boat, which I had no intention of paying for.

My new boat was finally surveyed two weeks ago, after we'd done a complete refit of her. Refit wasn't quite finished, but again, the survey was suddenly required if I wanted to keep the boat in the water year round.

Surveyor was a very nice guy, and we didn't have to haul the boat for it. Just had to provide some pre-launch photos of the bottom.

So I would say the only reason I would survey a boat in that price point is if you're really unsure about what you should be looking for (or looking out for), or if insurance requires it.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

For a boat like that, I wouldn't (and didn't) do it...especially if it's in the water, has been sailing, and has a dry bilge. That's just me.

A bigger boat, more money, bigger goals, I'll definitely do it.


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## matthewwhill (Dec 10, 2012)

Thanks everyone.

No, I am not qualified to inspect a hull for moisture, rot, etc...

I am not financing the boat, and the marina I will moor at does not require insurance.

In addition, the boat I'll likely make an offer on comes with a 2012 5hp 4 stroke outboard with battery charging capability (MSRP $1700). So if the boat is a complete loss I'll still have that as well as an auto-tiller, power inverter and a number of other useful things.

This is not my first sailboat, but it is the first "real" keelboat I will have owned. If my sailing continues to progress as I hope, then this would be a stepping stone to the last boat I'll hopefully ever by - much more expensive and definitely will get a survey then.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

As Faster said. And if you want to tie up in a marina, while you are out sailing, THAT marina may require insurance, but you may not need a survey if you can find "liability only" insurance.

However, it can cost $10,000 to have a $3000 boat hauled away and disposed of, because it is HAZMAT disposal. So even if you are buying a $3000 boat, that boat can cost you $13,000 if there's something you miss and it can't be easily fixed.

Whether a surveyor can prevent "Oh, well, it only needs another hundred. Ergh, five hundred. Ergh, gee, is that really gonna cost a grand?" is something else again.


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## Cruiser2B (Jan 6, 2011)

I did not have a survey done. I did have a quick haul and inspected everything that seller claimed had been done. I did some research on the internet as you are doing and just decided that the 800-1000(quotes for a 30ft) was just not worth that money. I have since put that 1000 buck toward new standing rigging.

Seems surveys are a good idea on a big $$$ boats but after reading through some sample surveys online I kinda got the feeling I was paying someone to do nothing more than a visual inspection. That I can and did do.

There is a book at Barnes and Noble : BARNES & NOBLE | Inspecting the Aging Sailboat by Don Casey | NOOK Book (eBook), Paperback, Hardcover

This is all you should have to send and maybe a bit on a haul. I use progressive insurance and no survey required for liability.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

For a cheap, small & simple boat, spending 25% or more of the price on a survey seems foolish to me. Sort of like getting a home inspection for a garden shed.

Casey's book is good - study it in advance and take it with you to look the boat over.

The sticky at the head of this forum on "Inspection trip tips" is also good - again, read it first and take a copy with you.

Taking a knowledgeable friend is always a good idea - they don't have those stars in their eyes.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

There's a boat inspection thread around here by a dude name Sailingdog. It's actually pretty good. Look that one up for what you can do yourself.


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## blutoyz (Oct 28, 2012)

I am in the same boat (pun intended) here. The one advantage is that mine was already on the hard so hull inspection was easy. To pay $500 or more to survey a $3-4K boat just seems too much to swallow unless insurance requires it.

Just my opinion but common sense and some reading should get you through.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

I wouldn't do a survey due to the cost.
However, be aware that because surveys are so often used for boat the seller and sellers broker don't mind lying through their teeth about the boat as they assume your surveyor will sort it out.


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

I did not get a survey on my first boat (cheap boat) - I read the one from three years previous. If available that's a good option.


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## kjretlaw (Jun 22, 2010)

It a risk an reward answer, if you can justify the risk of not having a survey then save the money and purchase Don Casey's book. My first 27" Keel boat was only 3500.00 it was sound with a strong outboard and good sails. I did all the rigging checks myself and took the risk of no survey. Did I find issues after I owned the boat..you bet, but I could live with them or fix them myself. 
My new boat was to much of an investment and I wouldn't have thought of not getting a survey, well worth every dollar. Thanks Rob Eberle out of New Bern NC.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

It's worth talking to a surveyor or two and finding out what they are willing to do for you. Most are really good guys, some semi-retired and not making that much money anyway. The real work is writing up the report so if all you want is a verbal opinion they may cut you some slack. Can't hurt to ask.


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## paul323 (Mar 13, 2010)

Ask your insurance company if they require one. Could answer the question for you!


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

I'm also in Seattle and bought my first boat without a survey. It was a Catalina 25 tall mast/fin keel that I kept on Lake Union. I currently have a larger boat that I keep at Shilshole Bay.

I read all of the DIY survey instructions that I could find and think I did a pretty good job of finding all of the major issues on the boat. I was able to get the price lowered by $1500 (more than 25% of asking) as a result. I didn't have the boat hauled, and if I were doing it again (especially at this time of year) I would have it hauled. It would be good to see what the hull really looks like.

A surveyor really has two jobs, one is to be completely objective (if not defaulting towards telling you not to buy the boat) and to have more experience in knowing what to look for. I think you can learn the latter for a simple boat like the ones that you are talking about, but only you can decide how objective you can be.

I wouldn't think too much in terms of "how bad can it go" and what parts can you sell off of the boat. An outboard that is $1700 new will sell for under $1000 on Craigslist here, even if it is only a few months old. Disposal of the boat is going to be very expensive and probably cost more than your purchase price. You really do need to survey the boat, you just need to decide if you can self-survey or pay someone for it.

My second boat did get a survey. It was useful and paid for itself in negotiation value. It was also required by my insurance (they require a survey for boats insured for over $20k I think). I'm not sure that I learned much from the survey that I hadn't already figured out myself, but the negotiation power was stronger.

If you do buy a boat and keep it on Lake Union you really need to come out for Goose Bumps (Jan/Feb) and Duck Dodge (May through August). They are very fun casual weekly races and even if you aren't competitive you'll learn a lot about boat handling. Go out a few times with someone who has raced before so that you learn the rules and get comfortable on the course, then do it on your own.

I know of a cheap slip on Lake Union that is available (it is right in front of my old boat), PM me if you want details.

Even if you aren't required to have insurance you should get it. Insurance on this cost of boat is very inexpensive (a couple hundred a year) and liability insurance is going to save you a lot of money if you get into even a minor accident while docking or sailing. If you are sailing on busy Lake Union or going through the locks you'll really want the peace of mind that it offers.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

davidpm said:


> It's worth talking to a surveyor or two and finding out what they are willing to do for you. Most are really good guys, some semi-retired and not making that much money anyway. The real work is writing up the report so if all you want is a verbal opinion they may cut you some slack. Can't hurt to ask.


I agree, it costs nothing to ask. I am not semi-retired and do need to make a living however, I have spent time looking over boats in this situation for little or no charge depending on A. If I liked them as people B. if I was in the neighborhood.

I have also on occasion completed survey reports free of charge for young people who impressed me with their passion for the endeavour and whom I knew were squeezing every penny to get on the water.

It might be a little much for a boat of this type but take a look at Marine Survey 101 that will give you an idea of what to look for.


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## matthewwhill (Dec 10, 2012)

Thanks everyone. Very very helpful. Alex W I will PM you once my sailnet account is 7 days old and they allow me to.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

matthewwhill said:


> Thanks everyone. Very very helpful. Alex W I will PM you once my sailnet account is 7 days old and they allow me to.


Matthew.. I think you'll need 15 posts before you can PM..


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

I sent him a PM with my email address. Hopefully that works.


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## deltaten (Oct 10, 2012)

While I didn't really need a(n official) survey to buy my boat, now I find BoatUS will require one for insurance purposes. I truly understand the need for one by the Company... just that I didn't *need* ta pay for one. 
At near to 10% of the price paid, it's a bit of a bitter pill to swallow. At only 3% of the insured/established value...not so bad.

There's only a few items I need to sort before survey. Since it's still on the hard, it should be easier/faster/cheaper ?!?! 

The biggest question I have is; will a springy foredeck down-check a survey for insurance?


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## Mor22 (Jun 18, 2012)

I am not suggesting to anyone that a survey be required for a cheap boat, but be careful. We bought our old very cheap boat subject to haulout showing little or no blisters. All was good until she started drying out on the hard. Then so many blisters popped out we got help and found the hull was waterlogged. By then we had already put $1500 into new rigging so were not going to trash it. We ground off all the gelcoat, dried her out, fibreglassed, faired, epoxied etc. Add on new blocks and running rigging, wiring, sails,paint and lights,centreboard cable, bilge pump etc and the cheap buy wasn't in anyway cheap any more. Learned a heck of a lot though, and we rescued a vintage boat that would have been in the junkyard very soon.


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## NJBoatDad (Apr 2, 2013)

Too many variables in play with boats. Even if you know a lot about all things marine, a second set of eyes cant hurt. If you dont want the full survey just see if you can pay for hourly consulting.


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## ChesapeakeMC (Jul 19, 2011)

When we bought our first boat, a couple of years ago, we were looking for a cheap boat so we could get into sailing and see if we liked it. We bought a 1970's (about $5k) boat without a survey, but since the previous owner had insured it with BoatUS, we were able to just transfer his insurance to us, and didn't have to get a survey. Things have worked out for us on this boat, and in the 2 years we've owned it no major problems have cropped up. We're now in the process of buying our next boat, and are getting a survey this time, but the cheap boat definitely served its purpose of getting us into sailing and helping us figure out what was important for us on the next boat.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

Mor22 said:


> I am not suggesting to anyone that a survey be required for a cheap boat, but be careful. We bought our old very cheap boat subject to haulout showing little or no blisters. All was good until she started drying out on the hard. Then so many blisters popped out we got help and found the hull was waterlogged. By then we had already put $1500 into new rigging so were not going to trash it. We ground off all the gelcoat, dried her out, fibreglassed, faired, epoxied etc. Add on new blocks and running rigging, wiring, sails,paint and lights,centreboard cable, bilge pump etc and the cheap buy wasn't in anyway cheap any more. Learned a heck of a lot though, and we rescued a vintage boat that would have been in the junkyard very soon.


Good reflection...my advice is that the survey gives you a ballpark idea of just how expensive your "inexpensive" boat will become...


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## asdf38 (Jul 7, 2010)

It's a tough call and from a purely financial point of view it may not make sense. 

That said, consider that after buying it, without a survey you'll own a boat that you may not know very well. When the weather pipes up you'll find yourself wondering how good the rigging actually is and what about the chain plates etc? 

I found myself in exactly this situation, bouncing around in 12' seas with the nearest port closed for the conditions and the next one 6 hours away with far too little experience on a boat that I realized I didn't know at all. Following the season I bought a survey just to alleviate these questions and feel better having done it. 

So the survey is for more than jus financial risk, it also gives you extra peice of mind.


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## Shinook (Jul 13, 2012)

Yes, without a doubt. 

We had 3 surveys done on 3 different boats, we passed on two of them because of the survey results. It was not only educational for me, it saved us a lot of money and from buying two boats that looked ok on the surface, but should have been sent to the scrap heap.

All 3 were in your price range (roughly)


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