# First Sailboat Opinions



## Elijah (Jul 16, 2020)

Hello, I am looking for my first sailboat and am interested in some opinions.

My experience is limited to a couple of summers playing with small racing boats (snipes, lasers) and a cansail 1 course.

Sailing for the next few years will be mainly in the North Channel of Lake Huron, Ontario.

Will be joined by my wife and 3 young kids.

I am looking for a bluewater, stable, boat, 32-36 feet. Ok with it being a bit slow if it means safer, more stable/comfy in weather. Under 30k

I like the idea of the centreboard in a full keel as it provides better ability to sail into wind and off of a lee shore if necessary. But can also be pulled up for shallow water and the full keel seems like the better option for a novice sailor.

Considering a *Hinterhoeller C&C Frigate36*

Any opinions on the Frigate 36 or retractable centreboard would be appreciated.

Other boat suggestions?

Things to consider?

Thanks.


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

Welcome to Sailnet.

Lots of choices. I am OK with centerboards, but they do involve additional maintenance. You say full keel for upwind performance, but a fin keel is actually better for that. For $30k or under in that size range you are looking at older boats. Up on the Great Lakes you should have lots of Tartans to choose from. I like the Tartan 33 for your requirements.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Also look at C&C which were built on the Great Lakes. Also Sabre. Many are centerboard boats. Rarely see a centerboard and full keel. Fin keel performs better. Tartans as mentioned good boats though C&C will have a bit more speed. There are many good boats in you range. Choose the boat in best condition.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

I sailed a Nonsuch 30 from Bermuda to Antigua. It was a good sailing boat.... big as a 36' interior... easy to sail... one sail to deal with... large cockpit. Good for a family


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Not an ideal boat with that oversized main. They have a difficult time going to weather.
My friend owns one. I’ll never forget the beer can race into a 25 knot breeze where he tacked time and time again and couldn’t get it to cross the start line.


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## Rush2112 (Jul 12, 2020)

It looks like we have similar preferences, and both looking for our first sailboat, even the same budget. Though I have the added difficulty of needing a sun shelter for too sun sensitive skin. And very few boats it seems accommodate a Bimini or other shelter while actually under sail. So I'm kind of forced into the motor sailors.

Here's a link to a Nonsuch 30 review, based on SanderO's recommendation. It actually sounds quite beginner friendly.








Nonsuch 30


This modernized catboat simplifies life under way. "Classic Plastic" from our November 2009 issue.




www.cruisingworld.com





Good luck in your search.


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## roverhi (Dec 19, 2013)

Own a full keel center board 35' boat, wouldn't reccomend it for ease of manueuverig for a novice. Boat likes to go straight ahead despite what I want it to do. Often use the board as a pivot point to make a turn and much use of prop walk to get the boat into a slip. Once out on the open ocean not a problem but it's tight quarter maneuvering has discouraged use. Fin keel boats, with or without a center board, are much easier to maneuver in tight quarters but may require more attention under sail.


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

Rush2112 said:


> It looks like we have similar preferences, and both looking for our first sailboat, even the same budget. Though I have the added difficulty of needing a sun shelter for too sun sensitive skin. And very few boats it seems accommodate a Bimini or other shelter while actually under sail. So I'm kind of forced into the motor sailors.


Don't understand the comment about not being able to use a bimini under sail. Lots of boats can. The major issue is the location of the mainsheet. Boats with the mainsheet far aft have a problem. Ones on the coach roof do not. Ones with it on the bridge deck may be limited to a smaller one.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

JimsCAL said:


> Don't understand the comment about not being able to use a bimini under sail. Lots of boats can. The major issue is the location of the mainsheet. Boats with the mainsheet far aft have a problem. Ones on the coach roof do not. Ones with it on the bridge deck may be limited to a smaller one.


I didn't understand that either. Unless you have the traveler in the cockpit it's quiet easy to construct and even there it's possible.


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## Rush2112 (Jul 12, 2020)

JimsCAL said:


> Don't understand the comment about not being able to use a bimini under sail. Lots of boats can. The major issue is the location of the mainsheet. Boats with the mainsheet far aft have a problem. Ones on the coach roof do not. Ones with it on the bridge deck may be limited to a smaller one.


I have looked through hundreds of photos and only seen a couple where a bimini was deployed while sailing, and they were very large boats > 45 feet. Literally every boat I have seen except one the main sheet is in the way, either actually in the cockpit, or right behind the helmsman's wheel, which is right at the back of the boat, so even if a bimini were deployed, the wheel and presumably the helmsman would still be in the sun.


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## Rush2112 (Jul 12, 2020)

chef2sail said:


> I didn't understand that either. Unless you have the traveler in the cockpit it's quiet easy to construct and even there it's possible.


Yeah again, I just don't see any examples of this being possible. Literally every boat I've considered- Westerly 33-36s, Moody 33-34s, etc, either the main sheet traveller is right in the cockpit or right behind the helmsman with the main curse being the wheel at the extreme rear of the boat.

Can you give an example of any of these boats where such a sun shelter would work?
I'm just going off off recent learning and have virtually no experience with sailboats, outside of small day sailor rentals, so the advises are much appreciated.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Contest 36s has a bridgedeck traveler. The bimini is aft of the main sheet,,, and for full cover at anchor you can zip in a connector panel with a hole for me mainsheet.


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## Rush2112 (Jul 12, 2020)

SanderO said:


> Contest 36s has a bridgedeck traveler. The bimini is aft of the main sheet,,, and for full cover at anchor you can zip in a connector panel with a hole for me mainsheet.


Well that's an interesting example. So the roof doesn't actually need to be continuous, and the bimini not actually connected to the dodger. Thanks.


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

My previous boat (Cal 9.2) had the traveller on the bridge deck, just aft of the conpanionway. I had a bimini and used it when sailing on hot sunny days. My current boat (Cal 33-2) has the traveller on the coach roof. I have a dodger and a sunshade that zips into the dodger, providing shade for the entire cockpit with no gap.

LOTS of boats can use a bimini when sailing. Just look for where the traveller is located.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Here's the sketch


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## Rush2112 (Jul 12, 2020)

JimsCAL said:


> My previous boat (Cal 9.2) had the traveller on the bridge deck, just aft of the conpanionway. I had a bimini and used it when sailing on hot sunny days. My current boat (Cal 33-2) has the traveller on the coach roof. I have a dodger and a sunshade that zips into the dodger, providing shade for the entire cockpit with no gap.
> 
> LOTS of boats can use a bimini when sailing. Just look for where the traveller is located.


Location of traveler, is officially added to my criteria, thanks.


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## Rush2112 (Jul 12, 2020)

SanderO said:


> Here's the sketch


That's an interesting solution, thanks for the pic.
Also nice because you can stand up at the point where you have access to reef.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Rush2112 said:


> That's an interesting solution, thanks for the pic.
> Also nice because you can stand up at the point where you have access to reef.


The way we are using... the boat when sailing dictates our decisions. Wife is usually occupying the stbd side rear and I the port side froward where I control AP and have the instruments and close at hand.... and engine controls as well, I usually have shade provided by the dodger... except lower sun angles when we are sailing easterly headings.

The connector panel is really for when we are anchored or moored.

This bimini is a Fall/Winter project.


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## danvon (Dec 10, 2012)

I don't know that I'd pick the mainsheet location (and by extension the boat) on the bimini issue. If you often single-hand, or are effectively doing so because you are also wrangling little kids, having the mainsheet near the helm is really nice. If it is up on the cabin top or bridgedeck, you likely can't trim the main without leaving the helm (depending, of course, on the cockpit size).


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## DaySailerMawd (Jul 21, 2020)

Retractable center board / keel will give you more options for mooring or navigating in shallow waters and launching ramps.


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

Rush2112 said:


> I have looked through hundreds of photos and only seen a couple where a bimini was deployed while sailing, and they were very large boats > 45 feet.


Here is a 19 foot boat with Bimini. Pretty sure Potter 15s are also sailed with Biminis. The reason you are likely not seeing more photos of boats sailing with biminis is it makes the boat less photogenic but more comfortable those for on the boat.


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

5 boats later, here's some advice for what it's worth.

Worry less about the exact type of boat or specific features, worry more about condition. Buy something that's up and running, fully commissioned (hasn't been sitting), been maintained by a knowledgeable owner, and go sailing right away. 

If you have a specific constraint (like your dock is shallow), then take that into consideration. But don't get hung up on details. You'll get 1000 opinions here on what matters, what keel, what anchor, what sail configuration, hull shape, builder, etc. Everything matters far less than condition.

The first "cruising" boat will teach you what you like and don't like. But if you buy one that needs lots of work, it will teach you that you can spend all your time fixing things, and zero time sailing. Sail it for a few years, and buy something else.

Don't go bargain hunting. The cheap part of boat ownership is the purchase price. No one wants to talk about annual cost, but trust me, it's the expensive part and becomes even more expensive if you buy the wrong boat. If inexperienced, do some looking around for a good broker to guide you and when you find the "right one" hire a surveyor. Not hard to find, marine industry is tiny, everyone knows who the good and bad guys are. Ask around.

YMMV. Good luck, welcome to the madness!


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## alanr77 (Jul 24, 2009)

OP- Read Capecodda’s Post and then read it again. Sage advice to be found in it. AA🤙


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## Scandium (Mar 27, 2018)

Elijah said:


> the full keel seems like the better option for a novice sailor.


As a somewhat novice sailor myself I'm curious what you base this on? I've never sailed a full keel, but this is certainly not the sense I have from reading about it.

I get wanting a "stable" boat for the family, though personally I'm not sure a massive blue water full keel beast is the best for family sailing, but that's just IMO. I take my 2 young kids out in a 23 ft, wing keel boat (I stay home in rough weather though). And for example, you'll hopefully be docking more often than being out in severe weather, and (from what I've read) with a full keel this is more difficult. Focusing on maneuvering and docking single-handed while your wife try to hold down a tired, screaming kid who wants to climb out is also a hazard (don't ask how I know..)


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## Rush2112 (Jul 12, 2020)

danvon said:


> I don't know that I'd pick the mainsheet location (and by extension the boat) on the bimini issue. If you often single-hand, or are effectively doing so because you are also wrangling little kids, having the mainsheet near the helm is really nice. If it is up on the cabin top or bridgedeck, you likely can't trim the main without leaving the helm (depending, of course, on the cockpit size).


Well that is a dilemma isn't it. I am planning mostly single handed sailing. Maybe then a center cockpit will be best as the mainsheet connects behind the cockpit, so I still have access. This is a really frustrating decision and not knowing much about sailing frankly except the few rental days I've had doesntt help. I might just end up paying one of those experts to pick a boat for me.


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## Rush2112 (Jul 12, 2020)

jephotog said:


> Here is a 19 foot boat with Bimini. Pretty sure Potter 15s are also sailed with Biminis. The reason you are likely not seeing more photos of boats sailing with biminis is it makes the boat less photogenic but more comfortable those for on the boat.
> View attachment 136426


On your boat it actually looks pretty good. The bimini balances the dodger aesthetically.


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## Elijah on the Water (Jul 21, 2020)

Scandium said:


> As a somewhat novice sailor myself I'm curious what you base this on? I've never sailed a full keel, but this is certainly not the sense I have from reading about it.
> 
> I get wanting a "stable" boat for the family, though personally I'm not sure a massive blue water full keel beast is the best for family sailing, but that's just IMO. I take my 2 young kids out in a 23 ft, wing keel boat (I stay home in rough weather though). And for example, you'll hopefully be docking more often than being out in severe weather, and (from what I've read) with a full keel this is more difficult. Focusing on maneuvering and docking single-handed while your wife try to hold down a tired, screaming kid who wants to climb out is also a hazard (don't ask how I know..)


A full keel, heavy ballast boat is (I think) going to be better for a novice sailor because it will be easier to control/stay safe in rough conditions. If we are doing multi day trips and exploring new areas, I assume we will at some point be in less than ideal conditions.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Why is it easier to control? What do you base that on. 
What makes a boat SAFE is the captain of the boat, knowing it and their own limitations
You can take the most seaworthy boat made captained by all ow it all nimrod.....so is it safe🙀🙀🙀🙀


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Elijah on the Water said:


> A full keel, heavy ballast boat is (I think) going to be better for a novice sailor because it will be easier to control/stay safe in rough conditions. If we are doing multi day trips and exploring new areas, I assume we will at some point be in less than ideal conditions.


Not necessarily. A lot of those old full keel designs heel a lot and are wet to sail. It's not so much a function of the keel design as the hull design. But you do mostly find full keels on old designs. A lot of more modern designs will be more pleasant to sail in less than ideal conditions.

Research "form stability" for an explanation.


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## Elijah on the Water (Jul 21, 2020)

chef2sail said:


> Why is it easier to control? What do you base that on.
> What makes a boat SAFE is the captain of the boat, knowing it and their own limitations
> You can take the most seaworthy boat made captained by all ow it all nimrod.....so is it safe🙀🙀🙀🙀


Obviously the skill and experience of the captain is a significant factor, probably the most significant. However being a relatively inexperienced sailor I'm trying to determine the best type of boat to learn and gain experience on. A racer is going to be more challenging than a cruiser for example. The safest course of action is to not go at all. 😜


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## Elijah on the Water (Jul 21, 2020)

Arcb said:


> Not necessarily. A lot of those old full keel designs heel a lot and are wet to sail. It's not so much a function of the keel design as the hull design. But you do mostly find full keels on old designs. A lot of more modern designs will be more pleasant to sail in less than ideal conditions.
> 
> Research "form stability" for an explanation.


Thanks for that info. It seems that it's a bit of a trade off. Wide flat hulls/high form stability = more comfort in good conditions less comfort in rough conditions. And the opposite is true for more traditional v shaped hulls.

Given our budget of 30-40k and need to fit five people I think we will by default be looking at a 70's era more traditional v shaped design.


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## Rush2112 (Jul 12, 2020)

chef2sail said:


> Why is it easier to control? What do you base that on.
> What makes a boat SAFE is the captain of the boat, knowing it and their own limitations
> You can take the most seaworthy boat made captained by all ow it all nimrod.....so is it safe🙀🙀🙀🙀


Now I don't doubt what you say about the value of experience. But a novice is a novice, they're kind of stuck with that fact for some time. So I think the relevant question is which is the better boat design for a novice until they get to the point that experience can overcome other factors.

So I have also read the same from multiple sources that a full keel tends to be associated with more stability.
I have read that a full keel makes the boat maintain direction better which is a big positive in big weather, especially to a novice who will have less than optimal reaction time to unwanted and unexpected changes in direction. Also I saw a video of a circumnavigator in a fin keeled Van De Stadt who was lamenting not having his old full keel boat anymore in both running downwind in a following sea, he had far less stability, and he was really struggling with weather helm and keeping the boat not pointed into the wind, which it kept tending to do. He fixed it with sail adjustments, but then again, a novice might not yet know exactly how.



Arcb said:


> Not necessarily. A lot of those old full keel designs heel a lot and are wet to sail. It's not so much a function of the keel design as the hull design. But you do mostly find full keels on old designs. A lot of more modern designs will be more pleasant to sail in less than ideal conditions.
> 
> Research "form stability" for an explanation.


Isn't the full keel also a benefit because it tends to be encapsulated so no bolt on issues to have to worry about?
And also they tend to have a higher ballast to weight ratio, making them more upright.
And also on a full keel, the rudder is more protected from poorly marked fisherman's lines and debris in the water, also protecting the drive shaft and the prop?
And also aren't full keel boats more protecting of the rudder in the case of accidental grounding, which a novice is more likely to do?

Sure seems like a lot of stability and safety and boat integrity benefits of a full keel to dismiss?

I think this is an important topic and appreciate a detailed discussion.
Full keel is also almost top of my list for my first cruiser as I'll be in the North Sea.


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## Rush2112 (Jul 12, 2020)

Elijah on the Water said:


> Obviously the skill and experience of the captain is a significant factor, probably the most significant. However being a relatively inexperienced sailor I'm trying to determine the best type of boat to learn and gain experience on. A racer is going to be more challenging than a cruiser for example. The safest course of action is to not go at all. 😜


You pretty much beat me to the punch on that one. 
Also our search criteria, and budget are quite similar- I'm also looking at mostly 70s, and early 80s boats.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Elijah on the Water said:


> Thanks for that info. It seems that it's a bit of a trade off. Wide flat hulls/high form stability = more comfort in good conditions less comfort in rough conditions. And the opposite is true for more traditional v shaped hulls.
> 
> Given our budget of 30-40k and need to fit five people I think we will by default be looking at a 70's era more traditional v shaped design.


Fin keels with decent form stability were widespread by the 70s. Even then, full keels were long in the tooth from a design perspective. I had a 1974 Grampian 30 with a fin keel and not bad form stability that had sleeping accomodations for 6. I paid $7500 for it. I am not saying that's the ideal boat for you, but you can definitely get a fin keel boat from the 70s.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

I’m trying to figure out whether you are a novice by your posts. You’ve developed some opinions from reading, but tend to ingnore opinions contrary from those with practice experience.

Full keel does not necessarily mean more stable, I know some full keel slugs which have very unkind sea motion. You cant make some generalization. Flat bottom boats are built that way to increase volume not to make them more stable. Racing boats are just that, very few boats are strictly racers, . There are full keels, notched keels, fin keels and many variations. My point about the Captain is that the person who controls the boat can do things to make even a narrow racing boat quite safe and comfortable. It doesn’t require as much experience as you think.. Every boat you look at will have characteristics for that boat. Those who already own that model can tell you. To make some generic statement about eliminating 3/4 of the boats out there by eliminating boats other than full keel because of something you have read doesn’t make sense. 

You seem to be worried about being caught in difficult weather which is understandable. North Sea sailing is heavy wind sailing. So with little experience how many times are you going to put yourself in a 35 knot, 6-7 foot situation?
If you get caught in it it’s probably lack of planning, again under the Captains control.

. I have friends who saill blue water . They have many different variations of keels. Some are full keeled dreadnaughts who don’t sail well into the wind, some are notched keel like a Hans Christian Cristina, some are narrow fins like SunDeers ( they are on their way around the world) 

Try and keep your mind open to all boats. Your small limited budget should be able to get you and the family a nice boat , really one for you to leern on. At that point you have the experience and seen other boats first hand, talked to their owners to get that super cruising boat. You have understood the other aspects of owning a blue water boats systems. Experienced can not be rushed or learned from a book. It’s a function of time and “experiences”. 

Good luck in your search.


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

I am not sure who to attribute the statement to but I have heard "fast is safe," regarding sailboat designs.

A narrow, heavy, slow full keeled boat is more likely safer in conditions where the boat might be in extremely snotty conditions, where the boat may get knocked down and rolled. The downside is they are heavy and slow. A racer cruising boat with a 6 foot keel might be 20% faster and point 10 degrees higher. This boat might be in harbor hours or days ahead of a heavy cruising boat. The owner might have more opportunities to test the superior capsize ratio of their boat.

The one advantage I can see to a full keeled boat is draft. A full keeled boat might be 5 feet or less, a performance-oriented fin keeled boat might have you drawing 6+ feet, the more the better until you hit bottom or can't enter a marina. The true downside of a full keeled boat is performance under power. The most dangerous part of sailing for a newbie is docking and a full keel can make that much harder.


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## Rush2112 (Jul 12, 2020)

chef2sail said:


> I'm trying to figure out whether you are a novice by your posts. You've developed some opinions from reading, but tend to ingnore opinions contrary from those with practice experience.


I have said that I am a novice, I've sailed about a dozen times I guess, mostly on small, open, rental boats so I'm sure I have a lot to learn. I'm not saying those are my 'opinions' necessarily, but just the impressions from what I have read is why I find it interesting to see the idea of full keels being safer being challenged. I am actually listening, sorry if it didn't come across that way



chef2sail said:


> To make some generic statement about eliminating 3/4 of the boats out there by eliminating boats other than full keel because of something you have read doesn't make sense.


Well actually in the limited price range that I'm looking at, most options are pretty old, and full keel is pretty common in the 70s.



chef2sail said:


> You seem to be worried about being caught in difficult weather which is understandable. North Sea sailing is heavy wind sailing. So with little experience how many times are you going to put yourself in a 35 knot, 6-7 foot situation?
> If you get caught in it it's probably lack of planning, again under the Captains control.


Yep I'll do my best to avoid the nasty weather especially in my first year. However as you say the North Sea has a reputation for heavy winds and can change pretty quickly or so I hear.



chef2sail said:


> Try and keep your mind open to all boats. Your small limited budget should be able to get you and the family a nice boat , really one for you to leern on. At that point you have the experience and seen other boats first hand, talked to their owners to get that super cruising boat. You have understood the other aspects of owning a blue water boats systems. Experienced can not be rushed or learned from a book. It's a function of time and "experiences".
> 
> Good luck in your search.


Oh by the way, the guy with the family going onboard is the other guy. After sometime getting acquainted and more experienced on relatively protected waters I'll be venturing forth between Sweden and Scotland, Netherlands, and Norway mostly, and mostly single handed. As my family has a proclivity for sea sickness, my dream is literally their nightmare LOL.

Anyway, stability points noted and I will keep options open. 
I have no idea what average marina depth is around here, though that may be a concern. I'll have to look into it.
Somebody said in a prior thread that condition should be a bigger factor in an early purchase so as not to sink the financial boat so to speak. Though I sill wonder what you think of the other points about full/long keels?

Does that mean it's encapsulated so you have less concern about bolt issues?
Also does the added protection for the rudder and propeller make much difference in practice?

Being single handed or expecting to be shortly, durability is actually just as big or bigger concern.
I have actually read about a surprising number of people losing their bolted on keel at sea, either slowly sinking straight down or flipping right over, and I can't imagine much worse. Also read about people losing their rudder. And I'd like to insure against those possibilities as entirely as possible!

Thanks again for the information.


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## Rush2112 (Jul 12, 2020)

jephotog said:


> I am not sure who to attribute the statement to but I have heard "fast is safe," regarding sailboat designs.
> 
> A narrow, heavy, slow full keeled boat is more likely safer in conditions where the boat might be in extremely snotty conditions, where the boat may get knocked down and rolled. The downside is they are heavy and slow. A racer cruising boat with a 6 foot keel might be 20% faster and point 10 degrees higher. This boat might be in harbor hours or days ahead of a heavy cruising boat. The owner might have more opportunities to test the superior capsize ratio of their boat.
> 
> The one advantage I can see to a full keeled boat is draft. A full keeled boat might be 5 feet or less, a performance-oriented fin keeled boat might have you drawing 6+ feet, the more the better until you hit bottom or can't enter a marina. The true downside of a full keeled boat is performance under power. The most dangerous part of sailing for a newbie is docking and a full keel can make that much harder.


I suppose that's a good argument, if a big storm is coming, the safest boat is the one to fastest high tail it out of there. Haha- it has validity, good point. Perhaps investing in an extra large engine would be a good safety move.

Again, I'll have to look into the local marina depth- hadn't even considered that factor.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

For your offshore sailing I could see a heavier displacement and protected rudder.
Encapsulated keels are not the bees knees. Any corrosion is buried. 

I prefer a bolt on keel. They can be tightened, lowered and worked on etc. while yes there are stories of keels falling off...they are extremely rare. You can get at and inspect and work on potential keel bolt deterioration,.

We’ve had our keel lowered and inspected at the 25 year mark, no issues. We tighten torque ours every other year. Very often no adjustment


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

Rush2112 said:


> Perhaps investing in an extra large engine would be a good safety move.


Most boats sail and powerboats speeds are limited by a 'theoretical hull speed' based on its waterline. No amount of practical up sizing your engine on a cruising boat is going to get it to exceed this speed.

One of the differences between fast boat and a slow boat is the amount of wind it takes to get it moving or at what wind speed or sea conditions would you sail vs motoring. I would guess I would need at least 10 knots of wind to want to raise the sails on a full keeled boat. So the slower the boat the more time you would likely spend motoring vs sailing.


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## Rush2112 (Jul 12, 2020)

chef2sail said:


> For your offshore sailing I could see a heavier displacement and protected rudder.
> Encapsulated keels are not the bees knees. Any corrosion is buried.
> 
> I prefer a bolt on keel. They can be tightened, lowered and worked on etc. while yes there are stories of keels falling off...they are extremely rare. You can get at and inspect and work on potential keel bolt deterioration,.
> ...


Interesting, I wonder if they ever came up with an encapsulated fin keel? BTW, somebody here recently recommended that I go with a 'bilge keel', which looks strange as heck, just plain wrong in fact, but I'm told they work 'ok' and the canals here in The Netherlands are quite shallow and a bilge keel or shallow keel is better as there is a vast network of waterways inland to explore. So now I'm considering bilge keels!

I found a Moody 34 (and maybe this is a good one for Elijah (the OP) as well. It looks just huge inside, has a large rear cabin with a 'normal' size bed that looks fantastic, and a bilge keel (well technically there's two). Maybe it will be better for me to consider living space more since it will be a liveaboard.

Any thoughts on these bilge keel Moodys?


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## Rush2112 (Jul 12, 2020)

jephotog said:


> Most boats sail and powerboats speeds are limited by a 'theoretical hull speed' based on its waterline. No amount of practical up sizing your engine on a cruising boat is going to get it to exceed this speed.
> 
> One of the differences between fast boat and a slow boat is the amount of wind it takes to get it moving or at what wind speed or sea conditions would you sail vs motoring. I would guess I would need at least 10 knots of wind to want to raise the sails on a full keeled boat. So the slower the boat the more time you would likely spend motoring vs sailing.


It seems that top speed is somewhere around 7 knots?

Your post kind of reminds me of this video I saw a while back- motorsailer with full spinnaker out, as one responded 'still isn't moving!'. LOL true.


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## Rush2112 (Jul 12, 2020)

By the way I also read that a windvane is a great spare rudder in a pinch. So as long as the bolt on's stay bolted, this could effectively replace the full keel's rudder protection. Just a thought...


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

Rather than research for which model is a great first boat pick the characteristics of a boat you want. Pick a reasonable budget for that quality of a boat and see what is available near you or within a reasonable delivery distance. It is an exercise in silliness to search all the boats models available in the world looking for the "perfect one." Then just hope there happens to be one in your marina or nearby for sale in your price range, in the condition you want, equipped as you want. If cost is no object this is a great way to go about it, you can even pay a broker to get one delivered to you.

When I surf the internet for my next "big" boat there are about a half dozen manufacturers I put into my search engine and certain builders I consider because they meet the reputation of quality and have design features I want.


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## Scandium (Mar 27, 2018)

Elijah on the Water said:


> A full keel, heavy ballast boat is (I think) going to be better for a novice sailor because it will be easier to control/stay safe in rough conditions. If we are doing multi day trips and exploring new areas, I assume we will at some point be in less than ideal conditions.


I'm a bit mixed up with who's who/where here, but for some reason I thought we were talking great lakes? I know they're huge, and it can get quite rough there, but it's not the pacific.. Yes if you're 14 days from land and a survival storm catch you with nowhere to hide maybe a full keel, heavy boat is what you want. But in the great lakes or coastal you're never that far from land. You're likely to have reliable forecast for the time you're on the water. So if a storm is coming you a) stay home. b) if you're out, find shelter. c) if ought out reef down, heave to, drop all the sails. There are plenty of options. (For the person sailing the north sea it's a bit different, but most of the boats there are still fin keel)

And regardless; the vast, vast majority of boats sailing everywhere are modern fin keel boats. We don't hear about these flipping, sinking, keels falling off in huge numbers every year. It's so rare that when it does it's news.

Encountering a situation so severe that the difference between life or death is whether or not you have a fin or full keel is highly, highly unlikely. Most likely you never will unless you're crossing oceans. But you will have to live with the drawbacks of heavy, full keel boat every time you use it. So would you choose boat based on something that is unlikely to occur, or having to deal with backing up a full keel monster twice each time you take your boat out, something that is notoriously difficult?

Sure, choosing a full keel boat isn't necessarily wrong. I just got the impression that OP didn't fully see the drawbacks, just that "they're safer".


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

The shape of the keel has nothing to do with ultimate stability. The depth and amount of weight in the keel is what creates the righting moment. The cross sectional shape of the hull matters. If you have a round-ish hull, it will heel more easily than a wider/flatter hull. However, it will also be more likely to pop back up after a knock-down. A really wide boat may turtle, and stay that way. I think the choice between an encapsulated vs bolt on keel is about a wash. There is a step up in the maintenance requirements for a centerboard boat, and more for a swing keel boat. Smarter people could explain this better than me. I think most people tend to buy smaller boats, and work there way up to larger boats over a number of years.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

What extra maintainence is there for a centerboard boat. I have one and I guess I haven’t been doing it.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Rush2112 said:


> BTW, somebody here recently recommended that I go with a 'bilge keel', which looks strange as heck, just plain wrong in fact, but I'm told they work 'ok' and the canals here in The Netherlands are quite shallow and a bilge keel or shallow keel is better as there is a vast network of waterways inland to explore. So now I'm considering bilge keels!


I do a lot of canal cruising on my sailboat. It's fantastic. I bought a specialised boat for it. Folding mast and shallow draft.

The easiest way to determine what draft to go for is check the maximum permitted draft for each of the canals you are interested in transitting. It will be published.

Then, rather than buying a "shallow" draft boat, you can buy a boat that has the necessary draft for the area you wish to transit.

I know for me, lock cills on the canals I like to visit are 60 inches.


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

chef2sail said:


> What extra maintainence is there for a centerboard boat. I have one and I guess I haven't been doing it.


Don't clean and apply antifouling to the board and unwind of the trunk? Don't inspect and replace when necessary the cable? Don't inspect and replace/repair the winch used to raise the board? Gland where the cable exits the trunk?


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Yes, we do that.

It’s very minor though.

Aside from painting inspecting the pennant is all we do. I’ve replaced the pennant 2 times in 23 years
Mostly preventative. Takes 10 minutes.

having a centerboard is really no big deal as long as you use it regularly


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

chef2sail said:


> Yes, we do that.
> 
> It's very minor though.
> 
> ...


I think your boat has benefited by having a loving devoted owner most of its life. I think a CB/Keel boat would be an ideal setup. As far as i know the uber expensive French Aluminum boat is the only one making them. If you are looking to buy one for under a million, you will be looking at a 30+ year old boat, and if it has not been maintained there could be extremely expensive repairs.

I am not sure how often it happens but since I have read about it does happen. A leaking centerboard can swell and needing prying out and rebuilding, a pennant can break and a swinging centerboard can cause other damage. Just one more thing to have inspected carefully when looking at a boat.

There was a C&C 40 a while back for sale with a Centerboard, I fell in love with, if I was closer to where it was I would have at least had a look at it.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

I think issues you see occur in non weighted center boards thrown into boats . Bristol, Tartan, Sabre, C&C and others did a great job with them. Those who have sailed with a CB on their boat can attest to their overall advantages.


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## Rush2112 (Jul 12, 2020)

jephotog said:


> Rather than research for which model is a great first boat pick the characteristics of a boat you want.


Hmm, OK, well I want something sturdy enough for regular sailing on the North Sea.
And tends to be very 'stiff' and not knocked over easily in a gusting wind.
And with tons of space below for a liveaboard in relative comfort.
And can be single handed with relative ease.



jephotog said:


> Pick a reasonable budget for that quality of a boat and see what is available near you or within a reasonable delivery distance. It is an exercise in silliness to search all the boats models available in the world looking for the "perfect one."


And here is where it all falls apart- budget. My starting budget is 30K. So I'm stuck with boats basically from the 70s and 80s.

Indeed. I am not finding the 'perfect one'.
So far, maybe the closest I've seen is either a Westerly or Moody 34 center cockpit with back cabin accessible from interior walkthrough. Believe it or not the hardest thing to find in this price range and size is a hot water shower!
Never thought that would top my priority list but its quickly moving up.



jephotog said:


> When I surf the internet for my next "big" boat there are about a half dozen manufacturers I put into my search engine and certain builders I consider because they meet the reputation of quality and have design features I want.


I'm spending endless time on yachtworld and every day finding new manufacturers. 
It is an exercise in futility and frustration. Sometimes I fear I'll burn out on sailing before I buy my first boat!


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## Rush2112 (Jul 12, 2020)

Arcb said:


> I do a lot of canal cruising on my sailboat. It's fantastic. I bought a specialised boat for it. Folding mast and shallow draft.
> 
> The easiest way to determine what draft to go for is check the maximum permitted draft for each of the canals you are interested in transitting. It will be published.
> 
> ...


Hmm, yeah I need to find out what depth the canals in The Netherlands are.
I know a lot of people here just sail the canals, and never bother with the sea.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Having spent enough time on a Moody 34 to get a pretty good sense of how it handles in light air and heavier conditions, the Moody 34 is a pretty crumby design in terms of motion comfort, seaworthiness, and sailing ability. They are neither stiff (having good form stability) or particularly stable, needing to be reefed early. These are difficulty boats to sail short-hand and are a really poor platform if your goal is to learn to sail. The elevated center cockpit amplifies the large roll and pitch angles that this design is prone towards. 

The layout is appealing if you are a small person who spends a lot of time at the dock. Otherwise the bunks in the main cabin and forward are tight for an adult and not useful in rougher conditions. The Thorneycroft engine typically fitted to these boats is out of production and parts are expensive and becoming hard to get. It shares some BMC diesel parts so some parts are available, but some next to impossible to obtain. For example, you cannot buy the original transmission or a transmission with the original gear ratios. 

I would scratch the Moody off your list. I have sailed a number of Westerlies and generally they are not any better. 

Jeff


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

@Rush2112... if you're in Holland... why not look for a used Contest? Well built and designed for the North Sea. I have an '85 36s and find the boat comfortable, fast (enough)...well built... easy to short hand... excellent accommodation plan and huge cockpit.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

The contests are excellent.....$30k though


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## Rush2112 (Jul 12, 2020)

Jeff_H said:


> Having spent enough time on a Moody 34 to get a pretty good sense of how it handles in light air and heavier conditions, the Moody 34 is a pretty crumby design in terms of motion comfort, seaworthiness, and sailing ability. They are neither stiff (having good form stability) or particularly stable, needing to be reefed early. These are difficulty boats to sail short-hand and are a really poor platform if your goal is to learn to sail. The elevated center cockpit amplifies the large roll and pitch angles that this design is prone towards.
> 
> The layout is appealing if you are a small person who spends a lot of time at the dock. Otherwise the bunks in the main cabin and forward are tight for an adult and not useful in rougher conditions. The Thorneycroft engine typically fitted to these boats is out of production and parts are expensive and becoming hard to get. It shares some BMC diesel parts so some parts are available, but some next to impossible to obtain. For example, you cannot buy the original transmission or a transmission with the original gear ratios.
> 
> ...


Hey Jeff, thanks for the feedback on the Moody 34 and the Westerly 34.
It looks like you helped me dodge a bullet, so yeah- thanks ;-)



Scandium said:


> I'm a bit mixed up with who's who/where here, but for some reason I thought we were talking great lakes?


The OP 'Elijah' mentioned a 30K budget, same as me...

And he mentioned a need to take a family, so he needed large living capacity for the length, same as me.. Since I need a liveaboard.

The OP also mentioned that he preferred a full-keel (same as me!), and options for relatively shallow (same as me!) cruising.

So... I kind of tagged along 

However he will be on the Great Lakes, and I will be on the North Sea.
And I'm not sure how much difference that makes in our decisions, frankly, because I'm actually still more than a bit a novice and have only sailed (and loved it!) about a dozen times.

Sorry for any confusion. I don't mean to 'steal' his thread, just looked like we had a lot in common.
So we might have some similar questions.



Scandium said:


> So would you choose boat based on something that is unlikely to occur, or having to deal with backing up a full keel monster twice each time you take your boat out, something that is notoriously difficult?
> [/QUOTE
> 
> Well... difficult as long as you don't have a bow-thruster ;-)
> ...


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## Rush2112 (Jul 12, 2020)

Rush2112 said:


> Hey Jeff, thanks for the feedback on the Moody 34 and the Westerly 34.
> It looks like you helped me dodge a bullet, so yeah- thanks ;-)
> 
> The OP 'Elijah' mentioned a 30K budget, same as me...
> ...


Sorry Scandium.. the quotes worked out a little weird, anyway that's my reply.


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## Rush2112 (Jul 12, 2020)

Jeff_H said:


> Having spent enough time on a Moody 34 to get a pretty good sense of how it handles in light air and heavier conditions, the Moody 34 is a pretty crumby design in terms of motion comfort, seaworthiness, and sailing ability. They are neither stiff (having good form stability) or particularly stable, needing to be reefed early. These are difficulty boats to sail short-hand and are a really poor platform if your goal is to learn to sail. The elevated center cockpit amplifies the large roll and pitch angles that this design is prone towards.
> 
> The layout is appealing if you are a small person who spends a lot of time at the dock. Otherwise the bunks in the main cabin and forward are tight for an adult and not useful in rougher conditions. The Thorneycroft engine typically fitted to these boats is out of production and parts are expensive and becoming hard to get. It shares some BMC diesel parts so some parts are available, but some next to impossible to obtain. For example, you cannot buy the original transmission or a transmission with the original gear ratios.
> 
> ...


Thanks of the information on the Moody 34 and the Westerly 34.


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## Rush2112 (Jul 12, 2020)

chef2sail said:


> The contests are excellent.....$30k though


Well if you step down to the 34 foot category, same as the Moody and Westerly 34, you're in the under 30K ballpark


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## Rush2112 (Jul 12, 2020)

SanderO said:


> @Rush2112... if you're in Holland... why not look for a used Contest? Well built and designed for the North Sea. I have an '85 36s and find the boat comfortable, fast (enough)...well built... easy to short hand... excellent accommodation plan and huge cockpit.


So based on your recommendation I checked the sailboat data for both the Moody 34 and the Contest 34S, here's what I found:
Attribute Moody 34 Contest 34
Bal./Disp.: 40.18 40.62

Disp./Len. 233.98 381.85

Comfort Ratio: 22.28 37.12

Capsize Screening
Formula: 2.09 1.71

Now I'm no expert at interpreting these numbers, but for my sailing in the North Sea, it appears that the Contests are far the superior boats, much heavier, and more 'sea kindly'. 
Thanks again to Jeff_H and SanderO for stearing me the right direction.
The Contests appear to have much more the kind of sailing characteristics that I'm looking for while still having good size and livable interiors.


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## Scandium (Mar 27, 2018)

Rush2112 said:


> Sorry Scandium.. the quotes worked out a little weird, anyway that's my reply.


Well there are other disadvantages with a full keel boat than backing up, mainly they're slow and sluggish, especially in light winds (so for example they sound great for the trade wind areas!). So again; do you want to endure a boat you can't get to move in less than a 12 kt wind, and takes forever to tack, because once, or never, in your life you'll find yourself out in weather so extreme you'd die in a fin keel boat? That's up to you (both of you). Personally that's unlikely for my situation. If crossing the pacific, or living full time in the Caribbean on the other hand I'd love a beautiful island packet..

Second; I love doing research too, but your sailing experience is even more limited than mine. It's possible, but the chance that your first boat is the one you'll sail single handed across the north sea (in foul weather) I'd consider pretty slim. What I thought I wanted/needed in a boat has changed quite a bit after owning one only a short while. I'd look for something good to learn on (i.e. Smaller? Tiller?), and appropriate for shorter/coastal trips. Then after a while find an ocean vessel once you are ready to do that.

edit: bow thrusters are extremly rare on smaller sailboats (<40 ft?). They require lots of electric power, I don't even know if one could get a full keel boat to turn around! Not to mention it's another propeller and motor to maintain..

edit2: this guy sail the north sea, quite seriously. Believe a Contessa 35, which to be fair is a pretty heavy, fin-keeled boat. 








Erik Aanderaa


Follow my adventures across the North Atlantic ocean as I sail my little boat alone wherever I go, seeking strong winds and high waves. I guess Im not anothe...




www.youtube.com


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Contest are good solid boats with great accomAdations for the size range. Pretty pricy but solid boats


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## Rush2112 (Jul 12, 2020)

Scandium said:


> If crossing the pacific, or living full time in the Caribbean on the other hand I'd love a beautiful island packet..


Island Packets are nice aren't they. 
They're in that short list of boats that on first sight I was like 'wow, that's nice!'



Scandium said:


> Second; I love doing research too, but your sailing experience is even more limited than mine. It's possible, but the chance that your first boat is the one you'll sail single handed across the north sea (in foul weather) I'd consider pretty slim. What I thought I wanted/needed in a boat has changed quite a bit after owning one only a short while. I'd look for something good to learn on (i.e. Smaller? Tiller?), and appropriate for shorter/coastal trips. Then after a while find an ocean vessel once you are ready to do that.


Yeah I think maybe you're right. I was shooting for a 36-39 footer, a 60s or 70s boat.
Now I'm going for more of an 80s boat around 32 ft. A little smaller, perhaps more forgiving to learn on.



Scandium said:


> edit: bow thrusters are extremly rare on smaller sailboats (<40 ft?). They require lots of electric power, I don't even know if one could get a full keel boat to turn around! Not to mention it's another propeller and motor to maintain..


Again I think you're probably right. My first boat will be my first boat- once I have more knowledge and experience I can upgrade later. Plus there is a very large inland body of water in The Netherlands which is a perfect training ground for a year before I go out to the North Sea. So maybe I won't rush things...



Scandium said:


> edit2: this guy sail the north sea, quite seriously. Believe a Contessa 35, which to be fair is a pretty heavy, fin-keeled boat.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Speaking of rushing things I watched some of Erik's videos, thanks for the link, his videos are great.
The one where he gets caught out in a force 10 on the North Sea, doing the boat delivery reminds me how much I need more experience before even thinking about it 

So now my shortlist is basically as follows:
Contest 32CS 
Van De Stadt Excalibur 36
Sparkman & Stephens 34

They all have skeg mounted rudders, and from what I see a good reputation for quality.
The first 2 have long-ish keels but not full keels.
I'm leaning toward the Contest.


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## Rush2112 (Jul 12, 2020)

chef2sail said:


> Contest are good solid boats with great accomAdations for the size range. Pretty pricy but solid boats


I think the Contest 32CS is my pick at this point, thanks. Just as you describe- strong, and good living space, not the fastest but allegedly still moves under a lighter wind. Sounds perfect.


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## Rush2112 (Jul 12, 2020)

I found two Contests in the price range of <30K, both look pretty great to me, but then I know just about nothing about actually buying a boat.

The 32 looks clean enough and has a great price, so I could have a decent budget to upgrade. 




__





Contest Yachts for sale - YachtWorld


Find Contest Yachts for sale in your area & across the world on YachtWorld. Offering the best selection of Contest Yachts to choose from.




www.yachtworld.co.uk





The 36 has a lot of new things purchased already, and 'extras' included, and is a bit larger.




__





Boats for Sale - YachtWorld


Find new or used boats for sale in your area & across the world on YachtWorld. Offering the best selection of boats to choose from.




www.yachtworld.co.uk





What do you guys think?


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Like the 36 except for the camping style burner set up. 32 looks well maintained.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Rush2112 said:


> Island Packets are nice aren't they.
> They're in that short list of boats that on first sight I was like 'wow, that's nice!'
> 
> Yeah I think maybe you're right. I was shooting for a 36-39 footer, a 60s or 70s boat.
> ...


Contest 31HT is a nice boat too


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Rush2112 said:


> I found two Contests in the price range of <30K, both look pretty great to me, but then I know just about nothing about actually buying a boat.
> 
> The 32 looks clean enough and has a great price, so I could have a decent budget to upgrade.
> 
> ...


34 looks fabulous!


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## Rush2112 (Jul 12, 2020)

chef2sail said:


> Like the 36 except for the camping style burner set up. 32 looks well maintained.


I know right? So much for making a spot of tea underway...
Though I suppose I'd manage with an electric kettle or something, it is a weird omission. Seems most boats I've seen have the gimble style setup.


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## Rush2112 (Jul 12, 2020)

SanderO said:


> 34 looks fabulous!


Yeah, I mean I'm no expert but it sure looks clean in the photos. And it seems like they have some pretty expensive parts too- new-ish engine with 900 hours, bowthruster, electric winlass, bimini shade cover, and a whole laundry list of electric gizmos I have no idea what they do. Sounds great! LOL

Even diving equipment, and a decent looking dingy.


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## Rush2112 (Jul 12, 2020)

I actually have to say I like the layout of the 32 better- having a double size bed in the back, with more headroom back there. I wonder how much would a new engine cost since it looks like it has the original?


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

34 is worth a real look. Contact Dick Zaal... He's in Medemblik and designed for Contest... A super nice guy.... I went to visit with him! He should be helpful.


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## Rush2112 (Jul 12, 2020)

SanderO said:


> 34 is worth a real look. Contact Dick Zaal... He's in Medemblik and designed for Contest... A super nice guy.... I went to visit with him! He should be helpful.


Yeah that 34 really sounds good, the more I think about it, thanks for the advice!
These forums have been super helpful in steering me the right direction


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## Rush2112 (Jul 12, 2020)

So I sent Dick Zaal an email. Considering he is now working on million dollar boat projects I'm not sure that my 30K used sailboat question is worth his time to respond to, but we'll see. Thanks for the tip.

He has a pretty nice website by the way:


Yacht Design and Naval Architecture | | Dick Zaal Yachtdesign


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Rush2112 said:


> So I sent Dick Zaal an email. Considering he is now working on million dollar boat projects I'm not sure that my 30K used sailboat question is worth his time to respond to, but we'll see. Thanks for the tip.
> 
> He has a pretty nice website by the way:
> 
> ...


He's a humble guy and no way a snob... I would think he'll respond to you. Good luck!
BTW a photo of Shiva sailing was used on his website for a while


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## Elijah on the Water (Jul 21, 2020)

The contest has a really low S.A./Disp.: of 10.60. One of the lowest I've seen. What make's you think it will move well in light wind? It seems like it would be slower than molasses.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

So I’m confused again,

you posted you had very little ( none actually) experience sailing and keel boat sailing. You are looking for a boat for a family of 5. They have zero experience being on a boat also. You obvious do some reading, but a smattering of disconnected book knowledge compared to opinions put forth by experienced sailors who own boats already is something you want to debate.

Sander owns a Contest. They are not racers for sure, but not slow boats. A more stable boat you’d be hard to find. That would interest me if I was inexperienced , with a large inexperienced family who just starting out with a boat. Scaring them by buying a Ferrari will not accomplish what I think your intent is....sharing the boat together.

instead of using the selective book knowledge I suggest you listen openly to the other experienced sailors opinions. Experience Trumps the written words in my sailing experience.

right now this is an intellectual exercise. Have you visited or are you planning on visiting any boats or is this entirely a fantasy thread. I suggest you start exploring and visit some boats and return with some physical knowledge of what you found and what looks like boats which match up with your family. We are all here to help you😀


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## Elijah on the Water (Jul 21, 2020)

chef2sail said:


> So I'm confused again,
> 
> you posted you had very little ( none actually) experience sailing and keel boat sailing. You are looking for a boat for a family of 5. They have zero experience being on a boat also. You obvious do some reading, but a smattering of disconnected book knowledge compared to opinions put forth by experienced sailors who own boats already is something you want to debate.
> 
> ...


Hi Chef2Sail, perhaps I can help clear up your confusion.

I was not debating your superior knowledge, I was asking a question. My understanding of a SA/Disp Ratio of 10.60 is a very slow boat, especially in light wind. Since others have stated this is not the case with this boat, I was hoping to understand why and therefore expand my knowledge.

The jump from that question to I want to scare my family with a race boat, and debate your expert opinion on this "fantasy thread" is something you made up entirely on your own and has nothing to do with me.

In regards to your suggestion, I am very open to the experience and knowledge of the sailors on here, that's why I'm here asking questions. But just a heads up, I may not agree with your opinion about everything all the time. . Ultimately I will have to decide for myself what boat to buy and deal with the consequences of those decisions. I'm ok with that.

I appreciate your willingness to be helpful, but if it's going to be causing you so much upset please (for your sake) do not try to help anymore. ?

Best Regards,

Elijah


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

Elijah on the Water said:


> Hi Chef2Sail, perhaps I can help clear up your confusion.
> 
> I was not debating your superior knowledge, I was asking a question. My understanding of a SA/Disp Ratio of 10.60 is a very slow boat, especially in light wind. Since others have stated this is not the case with this boat, I was hoping to understand why and therefore expand my knowledge.


While I agree some can be a bit easily offended here, I have my pet peeves also.

You need to check your math, if you are going to bring in sophisticated calculations, at least get your figures right. An SA/D of 10.6 can't be right, did you find that somewhere or calculate it yourself.






CRUNCHING NUMBERS: Sail-Area/Displacement Ratio - Wave Train


Article on how to calculate sail-area/displacement ratios for sailboats




wavetrain.net


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## Scandium (Mar 27, 2018)

jephotog said:


> While I agree some can be a bit easily offended here, I have my pet peeves also.
> 
> You need to check your math, if you are going to bring in sophisticated calculations, at least get your figures right. An SA/D of 10.6 can't be right, did you find that somewhere or calculate it yourself.
> 
> ...


S.A./Disp = 10.6


https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/contest-32-cs



For the contest 34 it's 12.08


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## Elijah on the Water (Jul 21, 2020)

I also wondered if it was a mistake as it's much lower than average. Hence my surprise about the comment regarding it performing well in light air.


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

Scandium said:


> S.A./Disp = 10.6
> 
> 
> https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/contest-32-cs


Looks like it's an error. SA doesn't include the mizzen, only the main and jib.


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## Rush2112 (Jul 12, 2020)

SanderO said:


> He's a humble guy and no way a snob... I would think he'll respond to you. Good luck!
> BTW a photo of Shiva sailing was used on his website for a while


Hey SanderO, 
I just wanted to get back to say thanks a lot for the reference to Dick Zaal!
He responded to my email pretty much right away, and we've had a conversation going.
You're right he really is a helpful and very knowledgeable and accessible guy, which I didn't really expect as he's kind of a legend in the boat architecture/design world.

Anyway, so he basically steered me away from the Contest 32 as he describes it as more of a 'coastal cruiser', and guided me towards the Contest 34 and 36 as 'go anywhere' boats.
The 34 is a sloop, the 36 a CC ketch, and both are in my 30K budget range.

The 36 has that wonderful airy spacious aft cabin, which makes it very attractive as a live aboard. And I don't know what it is I've always found something special about the ketch boats- they just appear kind of old school, stately. And I've read about them being great for single handing as in a sudden squall you can just drop the main sail and run on jib and mizzen. Often times they say there's no need to reef at all. Again, for me this is all just stories that I've read, but it sure sounds great.
Anyway, I'll keep posting as the discussion progresses.
And thanks again!


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## Rush2112 (Jul 12, 2020)

Elijah on the Water said:


> The contest has a really low S.A./Disp.: of 10.60. One of the lowest I've seen. What make's you think it will move well in light wind? It seems like it would be slower than molasses.


Nice catch! If you saw that on sailboatdata.com, where I found it, it's actually misstated.


https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/contest-32-cs



They state 389.00 ft2 sail area. So I did a little research and dug up the original Contest brochure:


http://www.joshua-contestyacht.nl/Contest_2032_20CS.pdf



And found that for example with the ketch with a main, genoa, and mizzen, you're looking at a very respectable 708 sq ft. If you add the optional mizzen stay you're up to a whopping 959 sq ft! Well over double the sailboatdata's figure of 389.

Even if you are only running the main, jib (instead of genoa), and mizzen, you are still at a respectable 561.

The only way to get the 389 figure they stated is with a storm jib up front, hardly ideal for cruising!

So I started checking other boats, and it seems that the most unreliable data on sailboatdata.com is in fact the Sail Area ;-)

Possibly because of so many options available...

Anyway, still a nice catch, thanks!


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## Rush2112 (Jul 12, 2020)

chef2sail said:


> Sander owns a Contest. They are not racers for sure, but not slow boats. A more stable boat you'd be hard to find. That would interest me if I was inexperienced ...


Yep, and the more I look into Contests the more I want one. Excellent build quality, good size living area, and very stable. Not the very fastest but not bricks either. Perfect not just for me, but for my girlfriend who is generally speaking scared of boats!

I'm not surprised in the least to find that these family cruisers are actually from The Netherlands, which just happens to be right on the North Sea.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Rush2112 said:


> Hey SanderO,
> I just wanted to get back to say thanks a lot for the reference to Dick Zaal!
> He responded to my email pretty much right away, and we've had a conversation going.
> You're right he really is a helpful and very knowledgeable and accessible guy, which I didn't really expect as he's kind of a legend in the boat architecture/design world.
> ...


That's excellent! I was pretty sure he would be helpful and kind... He was with me when I went to Holland to visit and decided to see the factory and meet the designer. You could not have found a better mentor to guide you.

Ketch rigs are "handy" as you noted. The aft cabin plans are great. I look forward to reading the next steps in your adventure and I am very gratified that this seems to be working out for you and I was able to steer you in the right direction.


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## Rush2112 (Jul 12, 2020)

OK, well I've still had my chat going with Dick Zaal and what a fantastic help he as been.
In comparing the 34 Sloop to the 36 Ketch, I do like the 36 CCs aft cabin, and for a liveaboard with most comfort, a large bed aft in a spacious and airy space scores high with me. Dick says the sloop may initially be easier to single hand, but that older more experienced sailors usually preferred his ketch designs. So again I'm leaning toward the ketch as it is something to grow into. 

Performance wise he says the sloop is a little better to the wind, but the ketch out runs it downwind, especially with a mizzen stay, which considerably increases sail area.

Also Dick Zaal's center cockpit designs are not known for the excessive sway (and resulting sea sickness!), of other CC boats like the Moody's and Westerly's. Nice to know.

And finally, they are about equally easy to shade both requiring custom biminis for best effect.

Oh and I almost forgot- I had a concern about placing a Hydrovane (which I'm pretty much sold on!) on the back as the Mizzen boom extends aft of the boat. He said this was overcome by custom mounting brackets, so it definitely can be done.

In short I can't go wrong with either decision, the 34 sloop or the 36 CC ketch which are both in the budget range, but somehow I'm really attracted to the classic majesty of the ketch, and it's wealth of options available, that I can grow into.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Elijah on the Water said:


> The contest has a really low S.A./Disp.: of 10.60. One of the lowest I've seen. What make's you think it will move well in light wind? It seems like it would be slower than molasses.


As a broad generality (that is greatly altered by the amount of wetted surface of the boat), it takes an SA/D around 23-24 (calculated based on the sails being flown rather than the more traditional 100% foretriangle calculation of sail area used for comparing disparate boats) for a boat to sail in winds under around 5 knots.

When you see a boat with the normally calculated S/D's down below around 20, trying to sail in light to moderate air, in order to sail at all requires the use of larger overlapping genoas in the 140 to 150% range. These tend to be lower aspect ratio sails so they are a lot less efficient . Due to this inefficiency, the larger overlap makes them harder to handle since it means carrying much more sail area to achieve a similar effect, When you see a boat with a very low SA/D, it typically means that the boat does not have a lot of stability relative to is drag (and displacement) making it harder for the boat to carry these larger sails into a building breeze and so they typically need to be reefed or have sail changes at a lower wind speed. Ironically this normally results in a boat that does not sail well either at the heavier end of the wind range nor at the lighter end of the wind range, and does not accommodate changes in wind speed very easily.

I readily acknowledge that this is something of a broad generalization, but by and large it is consistent with the thinking of the designers of these boats as can be seen in the sail plan drawings for these boat showing a range of 3-4 jibs on the sail plan drawing. It should be noted that in practical usage on coastal cruisers this is often addressed in part by partially furling a genoa and in part by just not sailing in the lightest winds or the heaviest winds, choosing to motor instead. Modern high modulus sail cloth also helps to increase the wind range of any given sail, but few owners of boats with an SA/D below around 18 care about performance enough to invest in these more modern sails.

Jeff


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## Rush2112 (Jul 12, 2020)

Jeff_H said:


> As a broad generality (that is greatly altered by the amount of wetted surface of the boat), it takes an SA/D around 23-24 (calculated based on the sails being flown rather than the more traditional 100% foretriangle calculation of sail area used for comparing disparate boats) for a boat to sail in winds under around 5 knots.


The Contest sail area/displacement actually is something closer to 20, just FYI, we discussed this earlier in the thread the sailboatdata is incorrect. They state something like 400 sail area when in fact it can range from 600-900 depending on the boat and sails deployed.

That being said, some boats like the Contest are actually designed to work best in heavier weather in 20-35 knots they're supposed to be fantastic. But yeah, like you say, in less than 20 they struggle to get going.

It seems some like the ketch Contests for the flexibility without having to reef or change sails. When it really picks up they say you can just furl the genoa a bit, and drop one of the other sails, depending on conditions, and hardly ever have to change sails or reef. I have no actual experience with these things, but it sure makes a ketch sound appealing to a single hander.

Somehow reefing and changing sails just doesn't sound like fun.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Rush2112 said:


> Somehow reefing and changing sails just doesn't sound like fun.


Whether it's fun or not, reefing is a fundamental aspect of sailing. Reefing in sailing could be compared to using the gas pedal on a car.

A decent reefing system should only take minutes. Roller reefing takes seconds.

It is not difficult, once you are proficient at it.


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