# Jamaica



## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

Jamaica is in the news right now because of hurricane Dean. I went there on vacation a couple of times in the 70's. Why isn't Jamaica ever discussed as a cruising ground ?


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Free,

It's location would be my best guess.

- CD


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## Waymar83 (Jun 5, 2006)

Fortunately Jamaica was not hit as bad as it could have been. Kinston I hear got the brunt of it.

On the issue of cruising I think its a good question. I was there in April for a conference and was looking for any place to rent a boat for a day. Could not find one, even with the help from this Sailnet! I ended up renting a Hobie 14 for a few hours...

There does'nt seem to be much infrastructure and I've also heard that crime can be an issue (although on the North shore I cannot see how that could be with all the touristy all-inclusive hotels...).

But again with all of the places to choose from in the Caribbean and the fact tha Jamaica is off the beaten track (probably the no 1 issue), there are many easier alternatives.


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## welshwind (Feb 27, 2005)

We had friends who spent some time in Jamaica at one of the all-inclusive resorts. They were told that under no circumstances, should they leave the compound after dark due to crime.


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## Gary M (May 9, 2006)

Crime is definately a problem in Jamaica, there is no way I would anchor in a remote area. I would even be nervous on the main town dock. 

However I think another reason is that there are very few anchorages. The north coast does not have much and I don't think the south coast does either. 

Gary


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

I talked to several Jamaican nationals working in the BVI while I was there, all of whom had left because of the crime.


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

In the 80's I was told not to leave the hotel compound at night while in the Virgin Islands. St. Thomas if I remember right. I think I had one hell of a time there as I remember little of that trip


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## Waymar83 (Jun 5, 2006)

I hear ya Freesail, 

It's all a question of perspective. I currently live in Guyana and if you rely only on the news reports etc, everyone should be walking around with armed guards and bullet proof vests....

I feel just as safe walking around Georgetown as I do in Montreal, Ottawa or Toronto (OK maybe Georgetown is safer than Toronto!).


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

I messed up my post. What I meant to say was that the Jamacian nationals were living in the BVI due to the crime back in Jamaica.


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## Waymar83 (Jun 5, 2006)

Hog,

You are right, and I interpreted your previous post in that way as well. Many folks from the Caribbean get tired (justifiably so) of the crime, corruption, lack of opportunity that their home countries exhibit. Hence the huge exodus of very skilled labour.

In Guyana for instance a recent study stated that almost 90% of university graduates leave the country shortly after graduation!

Of course Jamaican crime, particularly in parts of Kingston are extreme.


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## Waymar83 (Jun 5, 2006)

What I also wanted to add is that once people leave, as most have left out of frustration and fear and I find that they are unforgiving towards their ex-home country. They become the country's worst critics...Certainly true for Guyanese....

(mind you, in fairness, if I owned a business, crime would be big on my mind as well)


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

Waymar83 said:


> What I also wanted to add is that once people leave, as most have left out of frustration and fear and I find that they are unforgiving towards their ex-home country. They become the country's worst critics...Certainly true for Guyanese....


That's interesting. I've heard the Africans who were able to leave their respective countries in order to get an education, say, in Western Europe, almost never go back. Much of the work that the various NGOs do on the continent simply goes to enabling the poor but smart to get the hell out of there. What's left behind is an intellectual blight.


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## retclt (Nov 7, 2006)

It's sad to hear all of this crime talk of some of the islands. I have a good friend at TI here in Dallas who is from Jamaica. I asked him once how often he goes back home to visit family. He said he'll bring them here for visits but he will NEVER go back. He said he spent too many long years of hard work and study "to get off that [email protected]#& island!"

Sad.


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## retclt (Nov 7, 2006)

I'd like to add, 

I have had several Jamaican friends over the years and all were the most wonderful people I've ever known. Especially the ones who bring the meat pies back for me. Jamaican meat pies and Red Stripe . . . great stuff!


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## Waymar83 (Jun 5, 2006)

Hog,


There are 53/54 countries in Africa so I won't pretend to generalise to the continent. I do know a little about some of the countries in Western/Sub-Saharan Africa. 

Its true that many nationals from these African countries, especially when trained abroad tend to stay abroad. (This is less severe in Africa than the Caribbean by the way) This is especially true when the country is stagnant politically and/or economically. There is serious research that also indicates that if these same graduates feel that there is progress and hope, many will choose to go back after their studies or their work terms abroad. In cases where, after years of stagnation/repression, once there is regime change, there are a significant number that tend to return (I'm thinking of countries such as Ghana and Mali). Many will give up lucrative careers and lifestyles to "make a go of it" back home. 

When the West had very limiting immigration options (up to a few years ago), often getting there through an educational program was the only way out for many in the developing world. What started out to be a exercise in training locals to build capacity turned into an institutionalised brain drain of the best and brightest.

It still goes on but the "West" has realised it needs skilled immigration and so it is easier for many to apply without having to go through the "scholarship" program first. They know they can essentially apply at any time. There have also been a number of legitimate regime changes, particularly in Africa with significant political and economic progress in the last 15 years. So the skilled have options, its the unskilled that tend to try the illegal route.

From experience, I've found that hope, or at least the perception of opportunity (as opposed to the level of absolute wealth) is the best motivator. Countries I have worked in where there was legitimate hope, even if very poor, had a strong retention and return rate. and this of the "very bright".

The "NGOs" or Non-Governmental Organisations are an interesting group. (I used to work for several back in the 80's). They are a mixed blessing (and a mixed bag). Many recognise that to be successful they have to work themselves out of a job. Many do and have their programs taken over by homegrown "sister organisations" that they in turn continue to fund. Others look to this kind of work as their only "raison d'être" and continue to pursue a limited program of dependency.

Bob T,

As I mentioned earlier, I find the "bright" Jamaicans and Guyanese (in particular) who have left, to be the harshest critics of their countries. I think this is mainly out of a sense of frustration, simply because they know what "could be" and then get very frustrated by "what is" and they have little or no power to change it so they essentially slam the door.

On a lighter note, you must be able to get the Jamaican patties somewhere in Dallas. Heck, they've become so popular in Canada that we can get frozen ones in boxes at Costco!

For the red stripe, I prefer mine with jerk chicken and pork while listening to some Reggae on the beach and getting e-mails from co-workers, friends and family complaining about the snow storm that dumped 12" of snow....again.


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## retclt (Nov 7, 2006)

Mark,

I believe you're dead on target. I agree 100%. I can tell my co-worker would like to go home to visit . . . deep down . . . very deep down.

. . . and yes, we can get the meat pies here and they are similar to the home made ones my friends bring back . . but not quite the same. There is a place here called the Caribbean Grill that is a really nice (not expensive or dressy) restaurant with live Caribbean music, great jerk chicken and the beer is cold. The majority of the crowd is Jamaican which makes it even more of a treat. They have an attached grocery store with all things Caribbean.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

From friends that I have known that still have family in Jamaica... If they do go back and apear to be doing well for themselves the Jamaican gangs will extort money out of you via your family or simply not allow you to leave. I can confirm that the Jamaicans that do end up leaving would rather fly their family out than risk flying in. They do not like to mention this for fear of said family. 

As far as renting a boat in Jamaica, they do have to pay the local gangs to start up your own business and it just is not worth it.  The same friends that I was refering to used to be fishermen and wanted to start a fishing charter to cash in on the tourism. Unfortunatly they had to venture here instead.

~Tyrone


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## ReverendMike (Aug 1, 2006)

Re: Island life/Brain drain

If you're not working in the tourism industry, you're working in menial labor. There generally aren't jobs for educated people on the Islands. There's little or no industry, few or no universities, and damn little to do except kiss the tourists' _behinds_. I grew up (2-8 yo) on Bermuda, and it was great (for a kid); but even if I had the option of citizenship (I don't) I wouldn't take it. Seen enough of it to know that a *** job in paradise is still a *** job.

just my 2¢
Mike

(feeling surly, please forgive)


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

Tyrone,
That's incredible... I didn't realize the problem was that severe and extensive.

Mike,
The Sailnet police are coming for you. Expressions of surliness are against the forum's bylaws. I'll PM you with the name of a good lawyer.


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## ReverendMike (Aug 1, 2006)

SH
You did turn me in! You pig! I've now been edited twice this month, am I about to turn into the next CapeCodWeirdo or what? I can feel it, a powerful change deep within ..... no, wait, that was just gas. Sorry everyone for the profanity.
M

(Cam - you missed one, I'll get it)


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Thanks Rev...gas 'll do that to ya! (G) BTW...no need to get even with the Hawg...did that all by myself so you can photoshop me instead!


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## Waymar83 (Jun 5, 2006)

Well.....to add another 2 cents (canadian - now only slightly less that US )....

I work on a daily basis with alot of folks from the Caribbean: Diplomats, academics, engineers, media, bureacrats, business folks, development people, other professionals. In the larger islands (+ Guyana), the business sector is surprisingly diversified: Jamaica, Barbados, Trinidad and Tobago. Extensive banking and insurance, manufacturing of all sorts, agricultural production and processing, call centres.... Canadians are not the most agressive of foreign investors but I was surprised to learn that the Caribbean has over $550 Billion in FDI from Canada alone... My guess is that most of it is not in tourism as that is not really an investment focus of Canadian businesses...

What tourists tend to see are the goods and services related to their immediate interest, i.e. "the tourist thing". 

Rev, you are right about the areas within the "tourist centres". I saw that in Jamaica near Ocho Rios. The locals are totally fixated on tourists and responding (and living off of) tourist needs. But on the drive from Montego Bay you drive by a bauxite mine. That needs miners, engineers, mechanics, accountants, pay clerks, dock hands, etc.. I'm sure they could not care less about which cruise ship has docked...

There is a whole "Island life" that goes on that is not centered around the beach or other tourist "magnets". I have many Jamaican friends working here in Guyana. They are professionals and often go back home for holidays, etc. In most cases they have kept their houses there as well. (I,ve no clue if they've tried investing back home though)

There are the usual focal points: certain Parishes in Jamaica are totally controlled by gangs. You can't even go in....The recurrent kidnappings of business people in Trinidad is apparently masterminded by members within the police force. Both countries have regular shoutouts between rival gangs etc... 

Is there a security issue? Yeah there is. Is there organised crime that tries to extort money in certain industries? Absolutely. True for other countries as well.... Try opening a bar in Montreal and tell me who comes around to "visit" the first few weeks .....


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## ReverendMike (Aug 1, 2006)

Cam - Just kidding, he 'threatened', so I just had to respond. I'm starting to worry about going over to the *DARK SIDE*. Once that 'edited' nut is busted, it's just a slippery slope....  (no photoshop skills, just bad "Star Wars" references. "Help me Obi-Cam, you're my only hope.")

Waymar - Good points, Bermuda is a smaller island than some, with darn little space for any industry not essential to living. They used to have significant agriculture, but the land is too valuable to not put hotels on it. The larger islands do have space for mines, factories, etc. for now.... But probably still hard to have 'enough' professional jobs to avoid 'brain drain'.


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

I live near Detroit & drive through it regularly!!! Miles and miles of boarded up houses. Corruption & gangs. Murder, robbery & assult. No big deal.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

May the farce be with you Rev...Obi-Cam-Kan-Edit


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## ReverendMike (Aug 1, 2006)

camaraderie said:


> May the farce be with you Rev...Obi-Cam-Kan-Edit


IJSM from ROFLMAO


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## N0NJY (Oct 19, 2008)

I know this is an old thread, but I asked a question and was pointed here by Cam.

I visited Jamaica four times in the last three years. Stayed in St. Annes, place called Runaway Bay. Spent some time in Ocho Rios and visited a lot of places around the area.

I did not observe crime - other than every third person attempting to sell me ANYTHING they happened to have on them, including various forms of drugs. Usually if I said, "Not interested" or "I don't use that stuff, don't need it" they left me alone. 

One persistent fellow - nice enough guy, followed us around for about ten minutes asking if we wanted to ride in his taxi. He was making my wife nervous so I stopped and faced him and said, "We don't require your taxi services today, I know my way around and we're trying to get someplace within walking distance. Do you need anything else?"

He stopped and responded, "No, do you want to buy some drugs?"

I laughed and said, "Taxi to drugs... do you sell other things?"

"Wrist watches...."

So I responded... "The people for whom I work at home would likely frown on Federal Agents buying drugs or counterfeit watches"...

He scurried off.

(No, I didn't say I was a Federal Agent, I simply said that the people at home that I worked for would frown on Agents doing those things... and they would )

Anyway, over the past few years I've only seen the touristy areas so I can't speak about the south side of the island. Then again, seeing the rampant poverty in some of the areas through which I passed, I can only surmise that these things would all be true.

So - as much as we like the area - I think we will avoid going back there, as cruisers.


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