# Life Span of a Boat



## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Looking at 1960 through 1970's photos of Marinas around the world show large sailing and motor yachts. These were large yachts of 50 feet or more. If you look at a recent picture of these same marinas all the boats have been replaced with much newer yachts.

What is the life span of a yacht? Where did the yachts go? Were they cut up and landfilled?


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## Mobnets (Apr 24, 2011)

Particularly in the 60's there were still a lot of wooden hulled boats around. I suspect many of them have met an unhappy end, either rotting on the hard or stripped and cut up.

It takes a special mindset and lots of $$$$ to pursue the love and care of a large wooden-hulled vessel today.

Mobnets
1973 Paceship Chance 32/28 Westwind


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## rockDAWG (Sep 6, 2006)

casey1999 said:


> What is the life span of a yacht?


Indefinitely and will outlast the human race...... LOL. It certainly not biodegradable.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Still too early to say... if it turns out that 75/80 years after construction fiberglass turns to dust, another decade or so and a bunch of Pearson Tritons might be floating dustclouds...


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## Mirari (Sep 13, 2006)

Faster said:


> Still too early to say... if it turns out that 75/80 years after construction fiberglass turns to dust, another decade or so and a bunch of Pearson Tritons might be floating dustclouds...


Not likely, Plenty of FG boats aproaching 60 and still going strong. The real problem is all the systems will age and fail and unless someone keeps up with the boat it will end up being abandoned and subsequentially crushed. My storage yard typically crushes 3 or more boats on average every year. The fiberglass was fine, the systems and cosmetics had deteriated beyond the economic sense of restoration. My boat is 44 years old and I can see still owning her 25 years from now if I'm still breathing!


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Mirari said:


> Not likely, ......


I _WAS_ kidding!!!


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

43 and getting younger and better


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

boat i learned to sail on will be 110 june 2014.....still a registered historic treasure....


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## carl762 (Jan 11, 2010)

Nice boat Tommays. 

Mine's a 77, very rare, upgraded lots and will be even more beautiful as she ages, as long as I can keep up with her and don't age even faster than she.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

This is my response from a similar discussion:

I would not think that a well- constructed fiberglass has a life span per se. Neither concrete nor fiberglass inherently breaks down or loses strength simply on their own without other factors coming into play. They require other causes. In the case of fiberglass loss of strength can result from one or more of the following, 

-The surface resins will UV degrade. 
-Prolonged saturation with water will affect the byproducts formed in the hardening process turning some into acids. These acids can break down the bond between the glass reinforcing and the resin.
-Fiberglass is prone to fatigue in areas repetitively loaded and unloaded at the point where it is repetitively deflected. High load concentration areas such as at bulkheads, hull/deck joints and keel joints are particularly prone.
-Salts suspended in water will move through some of the larger capillaries within the matrix. Salts have larger molecules than water. At some point these salts cannot move further and are deposited as the water keeps moving toward an area with lower moisture content. Once dried these salt turn into a crystalline form and exert great pressure on the adjacent matrix.
-Poor construction techniques with poorly handled cloth, poorly mixed or over accelerated resins, and poor resin to fiber ratios were very typical in early fiberglass boats. These weaker areas can be actually subjected to higher stresses that result from much heavier boats. It’s not all that unusual to see small spider cracking and/or small fractures in early glass boats.
-Of course beyond the simple fiberglass degradation there is core deterioration, and the deterioration of such things as the plywood bulkheads and flats that form a part of the boat’s structure.

Earlier boats had heavier hulls for a lot of reasons beyond the myth that designers did not know how strong fiberglass was. Designers knew exactly how strong the fiberglass of that era actually was. The US government had spent a fortune developing fiberglass information during WWII and by the early 1950’s designers had easy access to the design characteristics of fiberglass. (Alberg, for example, was working for the US Government designing F.G. composite items when he designed the Triton and Alberg 35) The reason that the hulls on the early boats were as thick as they were had more to do with the early approach to the design of fiberglass boats and the limitations of the materials and handling methods used in early fiberglass boats. Early designers and builders had hoped to use fiberglass as a monocoque structure using an absolute minimal amount (if any) framing which they felt occupied otherwise usable interior space. 

On its own, fiberglass laminate does not develop much stiffness (by which I mean resistance to flexure) and it is very dense. If you try to create the kind of stiffness in fiberglass that designers had experienced in wooden boats, it takes a whole lot of thickness which in turn means a whole lot of weight. Early fiberglass boat designers tried to simply use the skin of the boat for stiffness with wide spread supports from bulkheads and bunk flats. This lead to incredibly heavy boats and boats that were still comparably flexible compared to earlier wooden boats or more modern designs. (In early designs that were built in both wood and fiberglass, the wooden boats typically weighed the same as the fiberglass boats but were stiffer, stronger, and had higher ballast ratios) 

The large amount of flexure in these old boats was a real problem over the life of the boat. Fiberglass hates to be flexed. Fiberglass is a highly fatigue prone material and over time it looses strength through flexing cycles. A flexible boat may have plenty of reserve strength when new but over time through flexure fiberglass loses this reserve. There are really several things that determine the overall strength of the hull itself. In simple terms it is the strength of the unsupported hull panel itself (by 'panel' I mean the area of the hull or deck between supporting structures), the size of the unsupported panel, the connections to supporting structures and the strength of the supporting structures. These early boats had huge panel sizes compared to those seen as appropriate today and the connections were often lightly done.

This fatigue issue is not a minor one. In a study performed by the marine insurance industry looking at the high cost of claims made on older boats relative to newer boats and actually doing destructive testing on actual portions of older hulls, it was found that many of these earlier boats have suffered a significant loss of ductility and impact resistance. This problem is especially prevalent in heavier uncored boats constructed even as late as the 1980's before internal structural framing systems became the norm. The study noted that boats built during the early years of boat building tended to use a lot more resin accelerators than are used today. Boat builders would bulk up the matrix with resin rich laminations (approaching 50/50 ratios rather than the idea 30/70), and typically used proportionately high ratios of non-directional fabrics (mat or chopped glass) in order to achieve a desired hull thickness. Resin rich laminates and non-directional materials have been shown to reduce impact resistance and to further increase the tendency towards fatigue. The absence of internal framing means that there is greater flexure in these older boats and that this flexure increases fatigue further. Apparently, there are an increasing number of marine insurance underwriters refusing to insure older boats because of these issues.

I have been looking at a lot of older fiberglass boats in the past few years. One thing that has struck me is the sheer amount of noticeable flexure cracking in areas of high stress, such as bulkheads, chainplate attachment points, hull to deck joints, cabin to deck lines, engine beds and rudder posts, and other high load hardware positions. 

There are probably other forms of hull degradation that I have not mentioned but I think that the real end of the life of a boat is going to be economic. In other words the cost to maintain and repair an old boat will get to be far beyond what it is worth in the marketplace. I would guess this was the end of more wooden boats than rot. 

In most cases the prices of these older boats are somewhat constrained by their obsolescence. Sailors who buy modern boats have certain expectations that these older boats cannot or do not deliver. These factors can be fadish or fashion, but many are simple functional matters. Newer designs potentially offer more space, better performance and ease of handling, bigger engines and more robust electrical systems to power all the conveniences of home. While there are clearly people out there who prefer the older styled boats, for better or worse, in the marketplace there is a sense that they are simply worth less. And it is that market value which sets a ceiling on how much a boat is worth, no matter how perfect a condition it is in. 

I can give you a bit of an example of how this works with land structures. When I was doing my thesis in college, I came across a government statistic, which if I remember it correctly suggested that in the years between 1948 and 1973 more houses had been built in America than in all of history before that time. In another study these houses were estimated to have a useful life span of 35 years or so. As an architect today I see a lot of thirty-five year old houses that need new bathrooms, kitchens, heating systems, modern insulation, floor finishes, etc. 

But beyond the physical problems of these houses, tastes have changes so that today these houses in perfect shape still has proportionately small market value. With such a small market value it often does not make sense from a resale point of view to rebuild and these houses are therefore often sold for little more than land value. At some level, this drives me crazy, since we are tearing down perfectly solid structures that 35 years ago was perfectly adequate for the people who built it, but today does not meet the “modern” standards.

The same thing happens in boats. You may find a boat that has a perfectly sound hull. Perhaps it needs sails, standing and running rigging, a bit of galley updating, some minor electronics, a bit of rewiring, new plumbing, upholstery, a little deck core work, an engine rebuild, or for the big spender, replacement. Pretty soon you can buy a much newer boat with all relatively new gear for less than you’d have in the old girl. Its not hard for an old boat to suddenly be worth more as salvage than as a boat. A couple years ago a couple friends of mine were given a Rainbow in reasonable shape. She just needed sails and they wanted a newer auxiliary, but even buying everything used the boat was worth a lot less than the cost of the “new” parts. When they couldn’t afford the slip fees, the Rainbow was disposed of. She now graces a landfill and the cast iron keel was sold for scrap for more than they could sell the whole boat for. 

Then there is the issue of maintainable vs. durable/low maintenance design concepts. Wooden boats for example represent the difference between a maintainable construction method versus a low maintenance/ durable method. A wooden boat can be rebuilt for a nearly infinite period of time until it becomes a sailing equivalent of ‘George Washington’s axe’ (as in “that’s George Washington’s axe. It’s had a few new handles and a few new heads but that is still George Washington’s axe”.) The main structure of a fiberglass hull is reasonably durable and low maintenance but once it has begun to lose strength, there is nothing that you can do. 

The best deals on older used boats are the ones that someone has lovingly restored, upgraded, and maintained. Over the years they have poured lots of money and lavished lots of time into maintaining the boat in reasonably up to date condition. No matter how much they have spent the boat will never be worth anything near what they have in it because as mentioned, there is a real ceiling to how much an older boat will ever be worth and they will often have several times that ceiling invested.

And finally if you buy an old fiberglass boat, paint the bilges white. It does nothing for the boat, but if you ever have to sell the boat, then someone may look in your bilge and say “Lets buy her because any owner who would love a boat so much that he went through the trouble to paint the bilges white must have enjoyed this boat and taken great care of her no matter what her age.”

Jeff


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## ReefMagnet (May 8, 2008)

Yep 44 years rolling around here to

I do think that fibreglass will eventually decompose, but it is a very, very, very long process


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## ReefMagnet (May 8, 2008)

ReefMagnet said:


> Yep 44 years rolling around here to
> 
> I do think that fibreglass will eventually decompose, but it is a very, very, very long process


Woo hoo now I got 10 posts I can post a picture


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

With the advent of the FG boat.. a lot of wooden boats were discarded and junked. Back in the money days of the 80s and 90s.. a lot of old boats were traded in on new ones. Rather than reselling the older boats.. they were stripped and crushed.

basically attrition through changing tastes. Look at older homes.. not too many survive compared to the strange things that archetecture is called now. Same with cars. People want better, faster, newer, and now.. and most people do not care about "old" things. To them, a 30 year old boat is just "old"


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## Lubrdink (Sep 1, 2011)

We plan on sailing the Glenn E until we rot into the ground. He'll still be around for the kids. 1970 Newport 27.


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## Lubrdink (Sep 1, 2011)

I have yet to figure out how to post BIG pics! A bit off the string but can you advise? Hopefully I'm a bit better at sailing than posting or I'm in big trouble!


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## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

casey1999 said:


> Looking at 1960 through 1970's photos of Marinas around the world show large sailing and motor yachts. These were large yachts of 50 feet or more. If you look at a recent picture of these same marinas all the boats have been replaced with much newer yachts.
> 
> What is the life span of a yacht? Where did the yachts go? Were they cut up and landfilled?


Many are gone forever, no doubt. Wooden boats don't survive much neglect. But the popular designs survive today. Take the Concordia yawls. I think 100 were built starting in the 40's, and I think they all survive today(one or two may have been lost).

They endure because of their design in form and function. You can keep a wooden boat alive forever if you have the means to do it(they may one day be the equivalent of Washingtons ax....)

Glass boats seem to survive neglect better than wood, but unless the design is popular, I think we'll see many of them disappear as well.

My glass hulled Alden is now 52 years old, and I don't think the half way point of the life of a good glass hull has been determined yet.

Here's a Concordia in my harbor. 100 of them now in their 50's, 60's and 70's, and no end in sight for them.


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## ReefMagnet (May 8, 2008)

Lubrdink said:


> I have yet to figure out how to post BIG pics! A bit off the string but can you advise? Hopefully I'm a bit better at sailing than posting or I'm in big trouble!


Use photobucket (.com) or flickr (.com) to upload your photos to. They then provide an


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## Lubrdink (Sep 1, 2011)

Thanks ReefMag!


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## blutoyz (Oct 28, 2012)

TomMaine said:


> They endure because of their design in form and function.
> 
> Here's a Concordia in my harbor. 100 of them now in their 50's, 60's and 70's, and no end in sight for them.


To scrap this would be the equivalent of scrapping the Mona Lisa (or whatever work of art you like)

Total awesomeness


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

I agree completely.. but it is amazing how many people don't like "old boats"

Just look at all the new boats being launched today.. they are wide and spacious inside.. more like floating homes than boats. And that is what people want


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

rockDAWG said:


> Indefinitely and will outlast the human race...... LOL. It certainly not biodegradable.


Yes, like anything that its worth preserving. Like a car or an airplane with time parts and pieces degrade and after many years little or nothing will remain from the original boat/car/airplane.

The question here is: It will deserve to be preserved for posterity as a part of human naval patrimony? If so costs are not taking into consideration if not all things, between them boats reach a point where the value of what you invest to maintain them is bigger than the resale value they have and maintain them it will no longer be a logical operation.

That's why cars are dumped away. Most of them would not have any problem to keep going if repaired. It is just not worth it.

I guess that one of the reasons that will lead to the disappearance of many old boats on the US will be the raise of costs to maintain a boat, I mean raising costs in Marinas restrictions to having a boat permanently moored on public waters. That has already happened in Europe and I guess it is happening in the US.

If you pay a significant amount of money to have a boat at the marina it makes no sense having a boat with almost no commercial value and one where you have to invest regularly considerable amounts of money to maintain it seaworthy. Lot's of money anyway for having an old boat that will perform poorly if compared with a modern one.

The exception, like in the cars or airplanes it will be the ones that are maintained almost exclusively by their owners but that implies a huge knowledge in many areas and they have to pay for the materials anyway and the spaces were they are allowed to work on the boats are becoming scarce.

Also, some can do it, but while they are doing it, they are not sailing and that has also a value since boats can live forever but not us

Regards

Paulo


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

I know here in NJ a lot of the marinas have been converted to Condos.. I understand that Florida is even worse.

Thankfully up here.. I have friends with waterside homes that rent out dockspace.. so I can get a good deal when I finally get my liveaboard.

your talk on cars is a good one though. I drive an older car. A 1987 Saab 900 Turbo to be exact. it is in near perfect shape (it could use a new coat of black paint) and is just as reliable as anything new (if not more) and is easily repairable if something were to break... but I have put several orders of purchase price into the car to get it to that stage. Not many people are willing to do that.. even the people that go.. "oh! I have not seen one of those on the road in ages!"


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## Coquina (Dec 27, 2012)

Like anything, a boat will last as long as someone is willing to pay for the upkeep. I have raced aboard a century old wooden boat and spent the night aboard a wooden ship built in the 1840s. In both cases the hulls were reinforced by laminating over them with epoxy-soaked wood strips.
IMHO the basic hull of a fiberglass boat will be good for a century or three or maybe forever if she is a solid glass boat. For a cored boat - YMMV.

Right now a lot of airplanes die because they end up being worth more as scrap and parts than airplanes.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

PCP said:


> Yes, like anything that its worth preserving. Like a car or an airplane with time parts and pieces degrade and after many years little or nothing will remain from the original boat/car/airplane.
> 
> The question here is: It will deserve to be preserved for posterity as a part of human naval patrimony? If so costs are not taking into consideration if not all things, between them boats reach a point where the value of what you invest to maintain them is bigger than the resale value they have and maintain them it will no longer be a logical operation.
> 
> ...


I have to disagree to some extent

The buyer of a New BOAT takes a killer hit in depreciation

My Cal 29 performs the same as always PHRF 184 something which is pretty MUCH the same as any brand new cruising boat with a 24' LWL

In fact there are some insanely expensive trendy day-sailors in the 29' range with 20 LWL that are SLOW

I sail with plenty of people that race and have funds we can only dream of and they stay with J44 programs because they done a great job in are area and there not hung up on owning the latests and greatest

No matter the marina cost my day on the water is exactly the same for Far less money


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

tommays said:


> I have to disagree to some extent
> 
> The buyer of a New BOAT takes a killer hit in depreciation
> 
> ...


Who is talking about new boats? Not me. I am just saying that you will only have a boat till it starts to become too expensive to maintain it comparing with tossing it away and having another more recent used boat till the same happens to that one. Same thing with cars.

Unless that boat has a value by itself, I mean if it is unique or some kind of naval patrimony and in that case money does not enter in the equation...same thing with cars. Some old cars worth a lot more than new ones, but that is not what we are talking about unless you are talking about an old rare classic with a big intrinsic value no matter its condition.

Regarding PHRF concerning a 29ft boat I am sure the Cal 29 was a fast boat for its day (PHRF 184), a performance cruiser. But good modern performance cruisers are way faster. It seems that there are very few of them in the US. I tried to find the PHRF of the Dehler 29 without success, not Even a First 30 (new generation). The only small modern fast cruiser I could find was the A31 that has a PHRF of 111. I know that it is two feet longer and I guess the Dehler 29 will have a PHRF about half way between the A31 and your boat. Anyway I am sure it will be way faster.

http://www.phrfne.org/page/567

Most European cruisers start their line at 30/32ft and it is hard to find a 29ft.

Have a look at how those boats sail, I mean A31 and company.

http://tv.yacht.de/video/Performanc...enschaften--/3bbf7f3754e975e60f5e4034755e1154

Regards

Paulo


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

yes and no.. something old and well kept is always going to have some value. Even the lowliest Cape Dory Typhoon will someday be worth a lot as they slowly disappear over the years.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

A comparable modern boat would be something in Catalina's line

If you pay a significant amount of money to have a boat at the marina it makes no sense having a boat with almost no commercial value and one where you have to invest regularly considerable amounts of money to maintain it seaworthy. Lot's of money anyway for having an old boat that will perform poorly if compared with a modern one.

It could be a translation thing but I really do not understand your POV

My old boats performance is still comparative to any apples to apples modern boat and it keeps a value consistent with it cost of upkeep

To go faster is to just go faster it does not change the pleasure of time on the water



















We collect plenty of top finishes by team work and good racing decisions rather than moden and on a really good day just plain win outright regardless of handicap and we have had many overall wins that have caused great dismay to modern boats


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

PCP said:


> If you pay a significant amount of money to have a boat at the marina it makes no sense having a boat with almost no commercial value and one where you have to invest regularly considerable amounts of money to maintain it seaworthy. Lot's of money anyway for having an old boat that will perform poorly if compared with a modern one.
> 
> Paulo


So you are saying that old boats should be scrapped because they are worthless, slow, and require a lot of maintance?

In a truely logical world.. that would have led to the HMS victory, the USS Enterprise, and just about any boat older than 20 years being removed from the water (or drydock in the case of the Victory) and being cut up and their few worthwhile parts being recycled into the newest glassfibre thing to make a splash on the ocean.

Sorry.. I do not buy it. Like I said, I have an old saab that is now 26 years old.. it looks and runs almost like new.. but because it is old, slower than the newest camry, and requires more maintance than anything built in this decade, it should go to the crusher? I am just not that logical.. and I am also that cheap. It is less expensive for me to keep my old saab running than it is to buy something equivilant (the last new saabs were in the 30 and 40k range) and that goes the same for boats.

Maintance may cost a lot.. but overall it is cheaper than a loan payment..


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

mad_machine said:


> So you are saying that old boats should be scrapped because they are worthless, slow, and require a lot of maintance?
> 
> In a truely logical world.. that would have led to the HMS victory, the USS Enterprise, and just about any boat older than 20 years being removed from the water (or drydock in the case of the Victory) and being cut up and their few worthwhile parts being recycled into the newest glassfibre thing to make a splash on the ocean.
> 
> ...


I have to agree with you here in a way... the older boats don't need to be destroyed for the sake of age... rather the upkeep does not merit the time of younger sailors getting into sailing to restore and revive... some do and will restore and keep a good vessel afloat... like cars and airplanes and yes it takes money... case in point I have several Italian cars that while aren't the latest Ferrari's or Maserati's... they have their own value and same upkeep as anything on wheels or afloat... here is my favorite in my collection... others are in the garage for safe keeping of course...

clocks.html

The Pantera is my friends car and we both take our cars to shows... I've been given a 'blank check' for my car at car shows and it puts a smile on my face but no dice... not for sale at any price... this coming from a guy driving a Porsche Cayenne... 

Nick


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

mad_machine said:


> So you are saying that old boats should be scrapped because they are worthless, slow, and require a lot of maintance?
> 
> .... ocean.
> 
> ...


Jesus, I am not saying that. I am saying that it will come a day were it happens. 10 years from know, 20 years form know. 50? 100? I don't know but it will happen unless your boat has an intrinsic value that comes not from function. One day it will come that it will be less expensive to toss it away than to maintain it and the same it would happen to your Saab. I don't see where is the doubt.

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

tommays said:


> A comparable modern boat would be something in Catalina's line
> 
> ....
> My old boats performance is still comparative to any apples to apples modern boat ...
> ...


No, your boat was when it was designed a performance cruiser and a very good one, not diferent in design criteria from the Cal 39, its big sister:

*Launched in 1978, the Cal 39..was a genuine performance cruiser before there really was such an animal.
*
Cal 39

*Cal Yachts (aka Jensen Marine) was a manufacturer of performance oriented fiberglass sailboats from the 1960s to the 1980s. ..*

Cal Yachts - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It was so advances to its time that it can still stand face to some slow 30ft cruisers like the Catalina 30. In fact the Catalina 30 is also an old design in what refers hull: It is a 1974 design.

*"The Catalina 30 .. first produced in 1974 by the Catalina Yachts Company in California.. has been through three revisions:
Mark I - Produced from 1975 to 1986
Mark II - Produced from September 1986 until 1993
Mark III - Produced from 1993 to 2006 (replaced by the C309).
All three revisions refer largely to revisions of the cockpit, rather than the hull itself..The Catalina 30 was the largest and longest continuous production keel boat in the world, with over 6,500 hulls produced. In 2001 it was inducted to the American Sailboat Hall of Fame."*






No, your boat that was as when it was designed a very fast boat, a performance cruiser, should be compared with modern performance cruisers and not with slow cruisers with hulls designed 40 years ago. In what regards comparison with modern performance 30fts your boat is much slower, no doubt about that.

I have no doubt that you are a very good sailor and winning races on compensated time has to do with that. In what regards winning in real time it only means that you are not racing against modern performance 30fts. In fact it seems they don't exist in the US. I cannot find their PHRF racing, not a single one, except that A31 and that is quite amazing and reveals the American love for old boats

Regards

Paulo


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

It is a Cal 29 and as of 2011 was found to meet current safety standards and it is certainly going to last the rest of my life without issue

General Summary/Risk Assessment/Values: This boat was found to be well constructed originally, and it has not suffered any major damage or repairs. The basic structure of the boat - the hull, deck, and interior, is sound. The foredeck has been largely rebuilt to correct a delamination condition. The work has been well done. The standing rigging is all new., and the mast and sails are in good condition. The engine, fuel and exhaust systems have all been rebuilt or replaced. The hull has been repainted. There are still some cosmetic upgrades to be made to the interior. In general, the boat has benefited from a knowledgeable and conscientious owner. If the recommendation is followed I would consider it to be an acceptable risk. :










We have all kinds and i have friends with modern










And friends still sailing 6 meters both classic and modern

You don't really understand sailing in America as well kept old boats are held in high regard


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

tommays said:


> It is a Cal 29 ..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, I understand Americans like more old boats than European, specially in what regards racing but I was only talking about performance regarding old and new designs.

The boat you posted (Cal 39) is certainly a great design and was a fast performance cruiser in its time but if we compare it with a modern performance cruiser, like the J 122 or the First 40 the difference is huge, like a PHRF of 108 to one of 36. In fact most modern mass production cruisers with 39/40ft are faster than the Cal (that was a performance cruiser) and some a lot faster. Maybe that's why Americans tend to call performance cruisers to all modern boats.

I understand that sail performance it is not all in a sailboat but it is certainly a factor to consider when you chose an old one over a new one.

But that is not the point, the point is that the ones that are today new ones will in time be old ones and with a worst performance regarding future boats. For them it will also comes the the day where they would be ditched out too.

Regards

Paulo


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

guitarguy56 said:


> I case in point I have several Italian cars that while aren't the latest Ferrari's or Maserati's... they have their own value and same upkeep as anything on wheels or afloat... here is my favorite in my collection... others are in the garage for safe keeping of course...
> 
> clocks.html
> 
> Nick


ah.. the (in)famous veglia clock cloud... I have had a string of Fiat 124 Spider.. from 74 through 78. Love those cars. I sold my last one when I got back into sailing... I just was not using her like I should have been.. so I sold her off to an enthusiast friend who occasionally lets me take her out


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

As much as I have always liked the Cals of that era, and the 29 was blazing fast for its day, in fairness when compared to a Laser 28 with a PHRF of 129 or J-30 at 135, it is not especially fast in relative terms.

By the same token, I agree with you point that the enjoyment of racing is not about relative speed. I really get a kick out of racing old technology, whether it is a Cal 25, a gaff rigger, or a J-22. The thrill and the winners circle goes to a well sailed boat.

But as cruisers, the faster boat will still have shorter passage times and may be easier to handle.



tommays said:


> I have to disagree to some extent
> 
> The buyer of a New BOAT takes a killer hit in depreciation
> 
> ...


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## wingNwing (Apr 28, 2008)

Hey, Jeff, thanx for the very articulate info on old fiberglass ... sobering to realize how exactly you've described our 1980 CSY in that summary. This is supposed to be our 'forever' boat. Sigh.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

wingNwing said:


> Hey, Jeff, thanx for the very articulate info on old fiberglass ... sobering to realize how exactly you've described our 1980 CSY in that summary. This is supposed to be our 'forever' boat. Sigh.


Thank you for the kind words. I would not get discouraged.

Here is the thing about a boat like yours,she functions well for your needs and is structurally suitable for how you are likely to use her. Boats like yours will remain functional and useful long after the latest performance cruiser or race boat becomes relatively functionally obsolete.

The down side is that the market for boats like yours ( i.e. quite small, older, live aboard cruisers which sail half way decently) is comparatively small, and it is that alone would tend to hold the price down quite a bit. On the other hand, when you sell a boat, you are only looking for one buyer, and the right buyer may pay more than the average buyer for a well equipped small cruiser in decent shape since that is precisely what that particalar buyer is looking for.

But in the end, like most things in life, it is how well your boat suits your needs. In the 1970's my dad and I owned an old wooden boat together. Most decent sailing days, I would get home from work, peel off my work clothes and run down to the boat for an evenings sail. We had bought that old girl for something like $2500. There was an older man in the next slip who sailed with me often. His boat was worth 30-40 times what Indian was worth.

One day he commented that for our meager investment, we enjoyed the water no less than he did. And that gets to the heart of this discussion. As long as your expectations are reasonable, then there is nothing wrong with owning an older boat

Where I often disagree with the court of public opinion is that not all used boats are made equal, nor are they always as good as the court portrays them, or sail as well as other, better designed, equal age boats, or for that matter, are seaworthy as better designed equal age boats. I my usual criticisms, I try to point out the relative merit of these boats and urge folk to make reasonably informed decisions and if they are going to go through the work to restore a boat, then buy the best design that they can, since it takes little or no more work to restore a junky design than a really nice one.

So enjoy your boat, take the value out of the joy she gives you, and do not worry about the rest.


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## wingNwing (Apr 28, 2008)

Thanx Jeff. I sincerely hope that the resale value of our boat will be of interest only to our heirs.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

guitarguy56 said:


> I have to agree with you here in a way... the older boats don't need to be destroyed for the sake of age... rather the upkeep does not merit the time of younger sailors getting into sailing to restore and revive... some do and will restore and keep a good vessel afloat... like cars and airplanes and yes it takes money... case in point I have several Italian cars that while aren't the latest Ferrari's or Maserati's... they have their own value and same upkeep as anything on wheels or afloat... here is my favorite in my collection... others are in the garage for safe keeping of course...
> 
> clocks.html
> 
> ...


*F*ix *I*t *A*gain *T*ony.  Very nice 124. The Italians sure made a nicer MGB than the Brits. 

The comparison to old cars here is valid I think. There are some very shrewd people in Arizona and other dry places that have junkyards full of old cars that they sell to restorers. The unrusted shell of a 60's Mustang is now worth much more than the car cost new. It's reached the point where restorers are even doing 4 doors  once they get old enough.

Since glass boats don't rust, the same can be done with them, only a whole lot easier. As boats become less beautiful and more and more soulless, I think the old hulls will eventually get the same care lavished on them.

John Huston had a great line in Chinatown - "Of course I'm respectable, I'm old. Politicians, ugly buildings and whores all get respectable if they last long enough".

Old cars & boats too I think.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Jeff_H said:


> ...
> 
> Here is the thing about a boat like yours,she functions well for your needs and is structurally suitable for how you are likely to use her. Boats like yours will remain functional and useful long after the latest performance cruiser or race boat becomes relatively functionally obsolete.
> 
> ...


It all depends how the boat is used and how hard it is sailed. There is some similitude with other machines. Some days ago I knew that one enduro racing motorcycle that I bought new in 1992 and raced for three seasons was still around and was being repaired to be given as a gift to the soon of the guy that bought it to me. The Motorcycle still has the same suspension and engine.

I sold the motorcycle back in 1995 because it needed a new engine and a new suspension, I mean for the kind and intensity of use I gave to the motorcycle. That would be so expensive that it would make more sense to sell it and have a new one

I was just a medium rider. A top rider would have sold the motorcycle at the end of a season. With the old bike he would not be competitive against top riders with new improved motorcycles.

In Europe we have also that kind of market for performance boats that seems not to exist in the US. I mean if a fast boat is not competitive anymore and I am talking of boats with 5 or 6 years, than the ones that use the boat to compete at a high level will sell it to buy a more competitive one and I am not talking about racers but about performance cruisers that race on ORCI or IRC.

That's a good way of buying an almost new boat at a discount price

If a boat is used for living and light coastal sailing the demands on the boat would not be the same as a boat that is used extensively for cruising and offshore sailing. A boat used like that can last a long time without the need of expensive structural refits.



SloopJonB said:


> .
> The comparison to old cars here is valid I think. There are some very shrewd people in Arizona and other dry places that have junkyards full of old cars that they sell to restorers. The unrusted shell of a 60's Mustang is now worth much more than the car cost new. It's reached the point where restorers are even doing 4 doors  once they get old enough.
> 
> Since glass boats don't rust, the same can be done with them, only a whole lot easier. As boats become less beautiful and more and more soulless, I think the old hulls will eventually get the same care lavished on them.
> ...


Yes, except that is not happening with all the cars, I mean being valuable and worth of restoring but just to a few precious few, the ones that have an iconic value. I guess the same will happen to the boats, I mean, not to all boats but just to a few iconic ones.

Regarding fiberglass, it will not rust but will degrade, as Jeff has explained previously.

Regards

Paulo


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

PCP said:


> Yes, except that is not happening with all the cars, I mean being valuable and worth of restoring but just to a few precious few, the ones that have an iconic value. I guess the same will happen to the boats, I mean, not to all boats but just to a few iconic ones.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


The cars without the iconic names but much older are showing up at Pebble Beach, Montery, Concours De Elegance car shows are costing hundreds to thousands more than the face value of the car when they were first sold... some of these cars are going for millions and yet they were sold for $500 or less when new... 

Many old boats/airplanes to a degree follow the same route albeit maybe not commanding the millions cars are doing in shows/auctions... boats seem to be in a different category that is hard to define in terms of 'value'... The value seems to be what the new owner sees in the benefits of new boat ownership rather than the value of investment for a future sale after restoring it or bringing it up to bristol state... a degree of satisfaction/pleasure???


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

IMHP the Cal 29 is nothing at all like a Lazer 28

It is far more like a Catalina 28 in weight and interior accommodations or a comparable Hunter as they all have almost exactly the same weight of about 8000# and 24' LWL and it why they BOTh sell a LOT of sailboats

We are talking about small boats with standing headroom for a 6'1" person like myself and silly things like and enclosed head area and fairly nice woodwork



















You have no IDEA how much at ease the fact a boat has and enclosed head puts people your introducing to sailing and its NOT and easy thing to find anymore on small boats






I can take a child out who has never BEEN on a sailboat and have them at ease and LOVING the experience on a large stable easy to sail platform which is what the 29 is all about


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

guitarguy56 said:


> The cars without the iconic names but much older are showing up at Pebble Beach, Montery, Concours De Elegance car shows are costing hundreds to thousands more than the face value of the car when they were first sold... some of these cars are going for millions and yet they were sold for $500 or less when new...
> 
> Many old boats/airplanes to a degree follow the same route albeit maybe not commanding the millions cars are doing in shows/auctions... boats seem to be in a different category that is hard to define in terms of 'value'... The value seems to be what the new owner sees in the benefits of new boat ownership rather than the value of investment for a future sale after restoring it or bringing it up to bristol state... a degree of satisfaction/pleasure???


But the cars that you see there selling for a fortune are not Chevies from the 70's but high-end cars or really old cars that are very rare . I had a look:






In fact we are saying the same thing: The value of a boat ( if we don't consider the subjective value that a owner attributes to it) like the one of a car, is the value at what it can be sold on the market.

Some old cars can have very high market value (but not any old car) and the same happens with boats.

Some old boats are, like the cars, part of a global heritage and the value comes from that. All sailboats designed by the great NA of the beginning of the last century worth a lot of money even if in bad shape and needing a lot of work. But the ones that worth a lot of money are just, like the cars, a minority and far from any old boat.

By the way a friend of mine bought in the US a Jaguar type E, bring it to Portugal and recovered it to knew condition. Beautiful car. He bought it not for much and now is worth a lot of money

Regards

Paulo


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

This is a classic 1970 35" boat and on the dead sea that is Long island sound










You need to make a good start and control the race as in typical 7 knots conditions that new fangled much faster 36.7 is STAYING right were he is BEHIND US unless we make a epic mistake










Thats pretty much were the spirit boat spent the rest of the day out of sight

ON the other hand on a different day with wind that favors there offwind speed they would kill us


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

PCP said:


> Yes, except that is not happening with all the cars, I mean being valuable and worth of restoring but just to a few precious few, the ones that have an iconic value. I guess the same will happen to the boats, I mean, not to all boats but just to a few iconic ones.
> 
> Regarding fiberglass, it will not rust but will degrade, as Jeff has explained previously. Regards Paulo





> It's reached the point where restorers are even doing 4 doors once they get old enough.


There're a lot more cars than the iconic ones being restored, hot rodded etc.

When I was a hot rodding teenager, we laughed at anyone who drove a 4 door anything but now if they are old enough they get used too - there simply aren't enough of the "good ones" to go around.

I doubt anyone will ever bring back an old trailer sailor from the grave but Cals, Ericsons not to mention old Pearsons and the like - it's already happening. There are a number of Aeromarine and Pearson Bounties that are like new for example.

An awful lot of people would drive old finned cars if they could fix and update them themselves like they can boats.

Just like people restore Victorian and Craftsman style houses - they aren't nearly as functional or liveable as current designs but they have a charm and attraction of their own.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

guitarguy56 said:


> The cars without the iconic names but much older are showing up at Pebble Beach, Montery, Concours De Elegance car shows are costing hundreds to thousands more than the face value of the car when they were first sold... some of these cars are going for millions and yet they were sold for $500 or less when new...
> 
> Many old boats/airplanes to a degree follow the same route albeit maybe not commanding the millions cars are doing in shows/auctions... boats seem to be in a different category that is hard to define in terms of 'value'... The value seems to be what the new owner sees in the benefits of new boat ownership rather than the value of investment for a future sale after restoring it or bringing it up to bristol state... a degree of satisfaction/pleasure???


I think it's mostly they just aren't old enough yet. The big deal in old cars for the past few years has been muscle cars - they were out of production before the big boom in glass boats hit.

Give it a few years - the kids who started sailing during the IOR years will be restoring old warhorses from little more than the mouldings. Those will be the boats they lusted after from afar when they were kids - just like cars.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

tommays said:


>


That boat is 43 years old - time you took the plastic wrapper off the toilet seat grannie.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

PCP said:


> But the cars that you see there selling for a fortune are not Chevies from the 70's but high-end cars or really old cars that are very rare . I had a look:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Paulo, the huge money goes to the very rare cars but pretty ordinary stuff commands big bucks as well, again, once it gets old enough.

My personal "missed chances";

289 Cobra FIA spec for $7K - now $250K +++
4.2 E-Type for $2700 - now $75k++
440 6 pack Cuda for $4k, now $100K+
DB5 Aston for $2700 - now $150K+
AC Ace Bristol for $3500 - now $100K+
AC Aceca for $7K - now $100K+
Ferrari 250 GT Lusso for $20K - now $800K
Shelby GT350 for $5500 - now $150K+

There's more but it's starting to hurt.  Note - they were all just "used cars" for enthusiasts then - well before they became classics. That's nearly $2 million worth of cars now that would have cost me $52K

How much will a Bermuda 40 be worth in 30 years?


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

One thing holding boats back from the kind of appreciation you see cars getting at Pebble Beach. The cars that are fetching gross sums of money are all restored to how they rolled out of the factory all those years ago. Boats tend to go through refits on a fairly regular basis.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Agree with Paulo any conveyance will have a "service life". Further agree that design,construction, maintenance and nature of use impact on service life. Finally agree that most of us would cry to see a Wlliam Fife hull put to the torch. But disagree that cost of ownership of a new boat is prohibitive if the boat is to be used voyaging or as liveaboard. Need to consider absence of need to replace many components ( haven't used a loran in some time) or need to upgrade or replace worn elements. With well constructed new boat one can expect those expenses will be mimimal for a decade or more. Also material costs can be expected to continue to rise. Glass re inforced plastic hulls are made of plastic from oil. Cost of a carbon fibre mast has doubled in my life time.In "real dollars" and annual expense it's not as bad as one would think at first blush. With sailboats going over 50kt+ and averaging over 20Kt in blue water the race crowd is on very different boats than the rest of us.Gone are the days when a boat could be both true racer and a cruiser. Following the service life thinking thinking maybe strip plank or cold molded wood epoxy boats are not such a bad deal or even traditional plank on frame. I say once you have educated your kids and seen them married go ahead and spend the inheritiance - just leave enough for a pleasant nursng home and to carry them throuh hard timesLOL.


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## Flatballer (Jan 19, 2011)

Depends on the boat. Laser? About 12 months.


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## smallboatlover (May 11, 2011)

ReefMagnet said:


> Woo hoo now I got 10 posts I can post a picture


Hey reef what kind of boat is that?


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

Nice write up Jeff. 
Some time ago you had made reference to USN studies of FRG hulls vs. long term fatigue endurance. Ive misplaced that URL reference ... any 'reminders' where to locate?

The ultimate problem for fiberglass, like any other 'plastic', is that its not a long term stable material if constantly stressed. The very definition of 'plastic' means that the material is subject to long term deformation, called 'creep'. In addition, the glass fibers used to strengthen are really not a 'true' solid but a visco-elastic 'hybrid liquid' with long term 'easy' deformation - an example would be: take a sheet of glass and 'lean' it against a wall at a large angle for several years and that glass plate after several years will be found to be 'bent' ... all by itself, due to the material quality called 'creep'. 

So after a few hundred years, your prized boat will probably be approaching the shape of a 'large puddle' on the ground, simply through the action of gravity and the nature of 'plastic' and not a true 'elastic'. "Creepy", huh? ;-)


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## steve77 (Aug 5, 2010)

For some ideas and pictures of what can be done with old boats, check out Tim Lackey's site:

http://www.lackeysailing.com/

He restored his own Pearson Triton to far better than new condition, and has numerous other projects on his site. Obviously this kind of thing can involve a lot of time and money, but the boat is willing if you are.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Rich,
Thank you for the kind words. There are three studies that I have have quoted over the years that you may be referring to.

The first was a US Navy document produced in the early 1950's which was intended establish design guidelines for F.G. Reinforced composites. I have a copy of that in my file and have quoted from that study on occasion, and make the point that this study existed and were widely circulated. Carl Alberg more likely than had been working with those standards when he designed the Triton. Charlie Wittholz told me that he worked with those standards at Rhodes and Alden in the 1950's.

The second is a marine insurance study which looked at the strength of fiberglass over time, and with one section particularly focused on early f.g boats. That 10 or 12 year old study was available on line but was not available the last time that I looked for it. This study was significant in comparing actual sections of older boats to what might have been expected simply from an identical new section with the same level of fiber and resin.

The third study was part of a series of Naval Academy student projects exploring the new sail training boats. That study looked at the failure modes of fiberglass in an impact situation. The lessons of that study is very interesting in terms understanding the behavior of glass reinforced plastics.

Jeff



RichH said:


> Nice write up Jeff.
> Some time ago you had made reference to USN studies of FRG hulls vs. long term fatigue endurance. Ive misplaced that URL reference ... any 'reminders' where to locate?
> 
> The ultimate problem for fiberglass, like any other 'plastic', is that its not a long term stable material if constantly stressed. The very definition of 'plastic' means that the material is subject to long term deformation, called 'creep'. In addition, the glass fibers used to strengthen are really not a 'true' solid but a visco-elastic 'hybrid liquid' with long term 'easy' deformation - an example would be: take a sheet of glass and 'lean' it against a wall at a large angle for several years and that glass plate after several years will be found to be 'bent' ... all by itself, due to the material quality called 'creep'.
> ...


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Jeff H- ? are you aware of any estimates of the service life of currently produced hulls.e.g. scrimp,cored, carbon, current conventional layup solid glass hulls etc.
Even with solid glass the chemistry is different than it was decades ago. Thought water migration. freeze/thaw cycles, osmotic stress and well as load/unload stress had more to do with degradation and that these should be better handled with current construction techniques and materials. ?Is this just wishful thinking


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

it's a good question and a lot depends on the builder. I have seen new boats with decks so flimsy they buckle when you walk on them and older boats with the glass so thick I am surprised they float.

Somewhere inbetween is the perfect medium between strength, lightness, and durability


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

mad_machine said:


> it's a good question and a lot depends on the builder. I have seen new boats with decks so flimsy they buckle when you walk on them and older boats with the glass so thick I am surprised they float.
> 
> Somewhere inbetween is the perfect medium between strength, lightness, and durability


Strength has not necessarily to do with weight. If epoxy and infused vacuum techniques are used you will have a lighter stronger and not less durable hull.

If carbon and epoxy are used and the carbon is protected from the sun, you would have an even a lighter, stronger and also not less durable hull.

Regards

Paulo


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## Arjen (Jan 18, 2012)

It is an economical and cultural question imo, not a technical one. 

The basis, the fiberglas hull, should live for ever (in humon concepts, very shortly in concepts of the life of the universe) if it is build properly. All the other stuff need to be replaced once every few decades. These things are rather expensive, but it is technically and economically feasible when for example these replacements required by age on an old boat cost you 2000$ per year (that is a new engine, rigging, sails and small stuff every 20 years) while a new boat of the same size costs 200.000$ and loses almost all of that value in 30 years.

The boat dies when these parts are more expensive than the value of the boat in good condition (with all these parts being in a good condition for at least a bunch of years to come) The value of boats of old boats purely depends on the ratio of people who like to buy shiny new stuff and support the production of more boats compared to those who prefer to buy an older boat. (even if its only a few years older)

This in turn also depends on the demographics of boaters. When there are many people who like boats in one decade and tons are build but boating gets out of fashion the next, boats will lose value fast and thus die young. Otherway around and they may never die.


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

Arjen said:


> It is an economical and cultural question imo, not a technical one.
> 
> The boat dies when these parts are more expensive than the value of the boat in good condition (with all these parts being in a good condition for at least a bunch of years to come) The value of boats of old boats purely depends on the ratio of people who like to buy shiny new stuff and support the production of more boats compared to those who prefer to buy an older boat. (even if its only a few years older)


People still miss the point. Just because something is not economical to repair does not mean people still won't do it. The heart is a terrific spender of money and time on things that make no sense to the brain. As long as there are beautiful boats, people will spend the money to upgrade and upkeep them.. even if technically worthless due to age and changing fashion.

I keep alluding to my saab, I bought the car for $900 a number of years ago. It was in decent shape, but need a transmission and a ton of little things. Many thousands of dollars later.. I have a car that worth maybe a couple grand at most.. but is beautiful, reliable, and unique.. I will never the money back I spent on getting it to this point, but it gives it back to me when I get behind the wheel and drive anywhere.

Boats are the same way. We pour thousands of dollars into them to keep them afloat and shipshape.. but in all honesty, nobody will ever get the money back that they put in. Even boats like JFK's Manitou (which is still afloat and being raced) are money pits from day one.

It is just one of those times when the heart is more powerful than the brain.. and if the heart had it's way.. no boat would be allowed to decay


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

ReefMagnet said:


> Yep 44 years rolling around here to
> 
> I do think that fibreglass will eventually decompose, but it is a very, very, very long process


Reefmag,
Where are you located? You must get extreme tides by the looks of those floating dock pilings?
Regards


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

mad_machine said:


> It is just one of those times when the heart is more powerful than the brain.. and if the heart had it's way.. no boat would be allowed to decay


And if the brain had its way, none of us would own boats.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

mad_machine said:


> One thing holding boats back from the kind of appreciation you see cars getting at Pebble Beach. The cars that are fetching gross sums of money are all restored to how they rolled out of the factory all those years ago. Boats tend to go through refits on a fairly regular basis.


Also, with a car you can moth ball and store in your garage for relatively low cost where as a boat it will cost you say 5-10% of purchase price per year to own even if you never sail (dock fees, insurance, dock lines, fenders, cleaning, waxing, bottom clean and paint). And there are a lot more car drivers than sailors in the world- bigger demand drives up price of historic cars.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Question:

Say you really like you boat, and all the gear and rig are in good shape, but the fiberglass hull is shot. Would it be legal to use your old boat as a mold to make a new fiberglass hull, or would this be considered theft from the original hull designer?


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

casey1999 said:


> Question:
> 
> Say you really like you boat, and all the gear and rig are in good shape, but the fiberglass hull is shot. Would it be legal to use your old boat as a mold to make a new fiberglass hull, or would this be considered theft from the original hull designer?


If you're just doing it for yourself, not commercial production, I think it would qualify as a repair - the way old wood boats are "repaired" by replacing all the wood in them.


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

it would only be theft if you attempted to sell more copies of the hull.

It gets vague if you decide to sell just stern pieces, or the Bow for repairs to boats that too significant damage to those areas


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

My steel 31 footer will be 29 years old in April, and is as good as the day I built her, with the original paint job. The trick was to get a lot of paint on her the first time, 25 gallons of epoxy tar , inside and out, plus regular paintings with marine enamel. I used hot galvanized plate for her decks, cabin and cockpit. Most steel boats have problems rusting out from the inside, because they don't bother to put any paint on the inside before foaming. I have seen far to many good boats lost that way, before their time. Foam is no protection for the inside of a steel boat. As long as I clean up and touch up any paint chips, the life of my boat is indefinite, certainly good for my lifetime.

Older fibreglass boats relied on far more shape for stiffness, which results in far less flexing than the flat surfaces of modern boats. Flat surfaces need a lot more support than compound curves, something most design rules take zero consideration of, making them far less connected to reality. A compound curve results in a fraction the flexing of a flat surface, something modern designers seem to lack any understanding of , possibly because it takes a bit of instinct, and ability to see things in three dimensions, rather than the two dimensions their calculations are based on, and is not easily converted in to numbers. They tend to regard all hull surfaces as flat surfaces, making them largely irrelevant, when applied to more complex shapes.

Another problem people have when calculating the cost of upgrading an older boats is the assumption that they absolutely "must have" all the modern toys that older boats lived quite well without, and all must be brand new.I sailed for 17 years and several Pacific crossings before I put my first electrical system on my boat. By the time I launched my current 31 footer in 1984, I had $4,000 in her, a bare shell. Another $2000 and she was sailing, and I was living aboard her. I've never had refrigeration and don' miss it. Wouldn't buy it if I won the lottery . Bought my first VHF in Mexico in 89, my first radar in 94, my first battery in 88, etc , after years of full time cruising without them. My interior evolved over time , spent cruising, and sleeping in as long as I pleased, as I gradually found the materials for free.
Do I regret not having gone deeply into debt to buy all the goodies new, before getting some enjoyment out of my boat? Not a chance! Do I regret not having spent all that cruising time going to work to pay for it all? Not a chance!

With the huge glut of boats on the market, the days of resale value in boats is over. The value in boats is the use you get out of them, plus the huge amount of money you can save living and traveling aboard, over spending the same amount of time living ashore, and traveling by far more expensive means .
Having a boat to live and travel aboard has enabled me to live on a month's work, average, per year ,since my mid 20's, and do many Pacific crossings, as well as cruise the BC coast 11 months a year. My boat owes me nothing. Not owning a boat would have cost me far more, many, many times more.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Brent Swain said:


> ... Flat surfaces need a lot more support than compound curves, something most design rules take zero consideration of, making them far less connected to reality. A compound curve results in a fraction the flexing of a flat surface, something modern designers seem to lack any understanding of , possibly because it takes a bit of instinct, and ability to see things in three dimensions, rather than the two dimensions their calculations are based on, and is not easily converted in to numbers. They tend to regard all hull surfaces as flat surfaces, making them largely irrelevant, when applied to more complex shapes.
> 
> ....


Brent, today NA work mostly if not only in 3D using computer programs have a look at a basic one that has nothing to do with the ones that big NA cabinets use. Those cost more than a boat.






Regards

Paulo


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## Arjen (Jan 18, 2012)

casey1999 said:


> Question:
> 
> Say you really like you boat, and all the gear and rig are in good shape, but the fiberglass hull is shot. Would it be legal to use your old boat as a mold to make a new fiberglass hull, or would this be considered theft from the original hull designer?


you're not being serious as in considering to do something like that are you ?


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## ReefMagnet (May 8, 2008)

SmallBoatLover: It's an Albin Vega. Swedish built. The only ones over here have come over on their own hulls. The only other one I know of I last seen in news footage last week floating down a flooded river whilst still attached to it's finger pontoon along with another 3 or 4 boats!



casey1999 said:


> Reefmag,
> Where are you located? You must get extreme tides by the looks of those floating dock pilings?
> Regards


Mackay, Qld, Aus. We get about 6m / 20ft on the biggest springs but the piles need to be higher as well to allow for storm surge in the event of a cyclone. Down south a little ways - maybe 100 nm - the maximum tides are 10m, which are the highest on the east coast of Australia. The Whitsunday islands are about 50nm north of here and the max tides are about 4m.


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## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

*Another boat with an unknown lifespan, the Hinckley B40*

Either a 100 or 200(I can't recall) were built over a decade or so. 50 years later, they sell for 3 times their original cost if only sparingly maintained. If they're kept under the Hinckley owner "carte blanche" program, they sell for much more.

Part of the allure is status symbol. Yet like the Concordia, I know many that are owned by experienced sailors and the boats are sailed extensively.

They'll never build anymore. They're anachronisms today for sailing performance. But any boat, racer, cruiser, usually the greyhound of it's time when new, is a performance anachronism in a decade, or three, no matter what they are.

It's small too for most of todays 40' boat buyers. Not the best liveaboard. But some people enjoy a simple proper boat for the type of sailing they do.

I suspect that the design will endure(and continue to flourish), because it's a pleasure to own, all around, and very well built. Whether you're under sail or anchored like this in a cove on the coast of Maine, it's a boat that the owner enjoys being on board.


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## blutoyz (Oct 28, 2012)

When I started looking last year I was drawn to the late 60 and early 70's boats with the real nice lines so pics like this really make me smile. 

I ended up with a 1981 because for a first boat it made more sense to get the most bang for the buck rather than get the one that I fall in love with....LOL


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Arjen said:


> you're not being serious as in considering to do something like that are you ?


Sure would consider. Figure all I need to to is remove the lead keel (keel would still be good), could reuse rudder and maybe even the entire deck, or at least the core. For maybe $25,000 in materials and providing my own labor I could have a new boat. Beats buying a new one at $250K and up. But from what others have said, the boat may be good for another two lifetimes, I'll let my greatgrand kids deal with the rebuild. I don't like throwing things away, if they can be reused or rebuilt.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

casey1999 said:


> Sure would consider. Figure all I need to to is remove the lead keel (keel would still be good), could reuse rudder and *maybe even the entire deck, or at least the core.* For maybe $25,000 in materials and providing my own labor I could have a new boat. Beats buying a new one at $250K and up. But from what others have said, the boat may be good for another two lifetimes, I'll let my greatgrand kids deal with the rebuild. I don't like throwing things away, if they can be reused or rebuilt.


The deck core would be the *least* likely part to still be good.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

SloopJonB said:


> The deck core would be the *least* likely part to still be good.


Maybe, maybe not. My current boat is 35 years old and has no core rot. Maintained maybe none in another 35 years.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

ReefMagnet said:


> SmallBoatLover: It's an Albin Vega. Swedish built. The only ones over here have come over on their own hulls. The only other one I know of I last seen in news footage last week floating down a flooded river whilst still attached to it's finger pontoon along with another 3 or 4 boats!
> 
> Mackay, Qld, Aus. We get about 6m / 20ft on the biggest springs but the piles need to be higher as well to allow for storm surge in the event of a cyclone. Down south a little ways - maybe 100 nm - the maximum tides are 10m, which are the highest on the east coast of Australia. The Whitsunday islands are about 50nm north of here and the max tides are about 4m.


Not sure if you've seen this:
Solo Around the America's Under Sail | An audacious attempt at sailing the Northwest Passage and circumnavigating entirety of both continents, to benefit Chesapeake Region Accessible Boating

Matt sailed around the Americas (northwest passage and cape horn) single handed and non stop in a Albin Vega 27.
Regards


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## Arjen (Jan 18, 2012)

casey1999 said:


> Sure would consider. Figure all I need to to is remove the lead keel (keel would still be good), could reuse rudder and maybe even the entire deck, or at least the core. For maybe $25,000 in materials and providing my own labor I could have a new boat. Beats buying a new one at $250K and up. But from what others have said, the boat may be good for another two lifetimes, I'll let my greatgrand kids deal with the rebuild. I don't like throwing things away, if they can be reused or rebuilt.


I dont know if you are talking about one of the special cases like posted here above that is worth 3 times its initial value now (although i doubt that could still be the case with a self rebuilt hull) Else wouldn't it be a lot cheaper to just buy another 30yr old boat, replace the stuff that you have that is better than on the other boat your buying and sell what is left over? Or just buy one of the many boats that has a good hull but nothing else that is good and go from there?

I mean the hull is the one part that usually lasts, so why build a new hull when there are 1000s of project boats on the market where the hull is the only good thing about them?


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

Considering that the majority of fibreglass boats spend over 90% of their life at the dock I think flexing is a non issue. Go to the archery club and see how far and the amount of flexing fibreglass bows can take for years , then compare that to the amount a boat gets in a slip at a marina, or at at sea for that matter.
For cruising purposes boat s have gotten progressively worse. Excessive bream has led to righting problems which were a non issue in the narrower ,older designs. Beam much further aft has led to less and less directional stability, in so called"Modern ' designs making it down right foolish to spend the exorbitant prices of newer designs, when older designs are available for far less than the cost of materials, and are far more suitable for cruising purposes.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Arjen said:


> > Originally Posted by casey1999
> > Sure would consider. Figure all I need to to is remove the lead keel (keel would still be good), could reuse rudder and maybe even the entire deck, or at least the core. For maybe $25,000 in materials and providing my own labor I could have a new boat. Beats buying a new one at $250K and up. But from what others have said, the boat may be good for another two lifetimes, I'll let my greatgrand kids deal with the rebuild. I don't like throwing things away, if they can be reused or rebuilt.
> 
> 
> ...


Agreed, that has to be one of the more harebrained ideas I've heard of in quite some time... (grin)

And, a price tag of $25K seems wildly optimistic, to me, and one could easily waste YEARS of potential sailing/cruising time on a project of such magnitude...

Not to mention, would a design whose hull is "shot" at this point in the era of fiberglass boatbuilding even be worth replicating?

When production boatbuilders go bust, one of their most valuable assets to be sold off are their existing molds... To use your boat as a plug, and then go through all the time and expense to create a female mold which would have no value - legally, at any rate - after such a one-off project, well... it's hard to imagine a greater waste of money on the resurrection of an old GRP boat from the dead... More effort and expense might well be expended on the creation of the mold itself, rather than the hull... Doesn't seem to make much sense, especially for someone who "doesn't like throwing things away"...

Here's the mold from which my hull was the very first one to pop out of... A couple of decades ago, after the Allied Boat Company went bust, some dreamer bought the molds... They're still sitting in some field up in the hills outside of Amsterdam, NY...










At least I know where I might find a spare deck, if the need should ever arise... Although, I would hope someone would have the good sense to convince me to just shoot myself, instead... (grin)


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Jon,
That is why I am leaving "the project" to my great grand kids......


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Brent Swain said:


> &#8230;. For cruising purposes boat s have gotten progressively worse. Excessive bream has led to righting problems which were a non issue in the narrower ,older designs. Beam much further aft has led to less and less directional stability, in so called"Modern ' designs making it down right foolish to spend the exorbitant prices of newer designs, when older designs are available for far less than the cost of materials, and are far more suitable for cruising purposes.


You seem to think that the contemporary generation of Naval architects are globally incompetent and that the sailors that have the money that permits them chose the boats they want and choose to buy boats designed by those incompetent NAs don't have a clue about cruising or sailing. I find amazing that you remain convinced that all are foolish and you know better.

Eventually you are right in what concerns your personal perspective of a cruising boat, a perspective that is very marginal otherwise you would be making thousands of boats. Note that contrary to what you are saying regarding the vast majority of cruisers, I am not saying that your perspective regarding cruising boats is foolish, but is obviously a very marginal one.

I guess that the ones that can choose will agree with Tom:



TomMaine said:


> ... But any boat, racer, cruiser, usually the greyhound of it's time when new, is a performance anachronism in a decade, or three, no matter what they are. ..


Most sailors, if they could, would like to have the last and better design (among the many type of cruising boats the market offers). Some have the money to change boats each 4 years or so, most of us just have the best our money can afford, according with our financial possibilities.

To call fools to the ones that can have the cruising boat they want just because they have the possibility to do so does not make sense as it does not make sense to assume that contemporary NA are globally doing worse cruisers than 20 or 30 years ago.

Regards

Paulo


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

JonEisberg said:


> Agreed, that has to be one of the more harebrained ideas I've heard of in quite some time... (grin)
> 
> Here's the mold from which my hull was the very first one to pop out of... A couple of decades ago, after the Allied Boat Company went bust, some dreamer bought the molds... They're still sitting in some field up in the hills outside of Amsterdam, NY...
> 
> ...


Trust me Jon, I would be the first to try to talk you out of it. But should you ever decide to scrap Chancy, at least save that beautiful keel.  or as a wise old friend of mine would say about now (grin).

Serious, seeing those molds stored like that, with their shiny side exposed to the sun is really sad. They must be shot by now if not decades ago.

Jeff


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

wholeheartly agree with Paulo. would only modify the comment by saying for some of us aethetics and comfort modify the quest for a fast boat. In my view Paulo is right. On another thread he praises the Boreal and it was on my short list. (A metal boat like Brent's). It seems to be a great purpose built beast. some crave the latest from NE Boatworks or an exotic one off. Others want a Morris . But its simple physics the latest generation of boats be they conservative or radical do represent an advance. I wonder if Brent believes we think all should be all sailing open 60s- I assure him that's not true. but many of us think many boats currently being constructed are beautiful, strong, comfortable and safe homes as well as pasagemakers.


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## ReefMagnet (May 8, 2008)

casey1999 said:


> Not sure if you've seen this:
> Solo Around the America's Under Sail | An audacious attempt at sailing the Northwest Passage and circumnavigating entirety of both continents, to benefit Chesapeake Region Accessible Boating
> 
> Matt sailed around the Americas (northwest passage and cape horn) single handed and non stop in a Albin Vega 27.
> Regards


Yes I followed Matt on his adventures via the Internet. A very impressive accomplishment. I was aware of the reputation of the Vega - that's why I grabbed one when one by chance came up for sale locally even though it was older and needed more tlc then I was anticipating!


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Jeff_H said:


> Trust me Jon, I would be the first to try to talk you out of it. But should you ever decide to scrap Chancy, at least save that beautiful keel.  or as a wise old friend of mine would say about now (grin).
> 
> Serious, seeing those molds stored like that, with their shiny side exposed to the sun is really sad. They must be shot by now if not decades ago.
> 
> Jeff


Yeah, that keel is definitely the most valuable scrap on my little tub - largely thanks to you, of course...(grin)

For sure, those upstate NY winters have taken their toll on those molds by now - they probably should have at least been stored upside-down, no?

Those pics were taken almost 15 years ago... Our old Cruising World forum buddy TalW was helping me with a delivery on the Erie Canal one spring, when a big flood shut the system down for a week. Dave Gibson came and fetched us, took us up to see the Allied bone yard, very spooky place... Then we met Chuck and Kate for dinner... Seems like only yesterday, time flies on these sailing forums, eh?

I may be passing thru your neighborhood to pick up a boat going south around the 15th, I'll give you a shout, it would be great to see you again...


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

JonEisberg said:


> I may be passing thru your neighborhood around the 15th, I'll give you a shout, it would be great to see you again...


Barbara and would certainly enjoy seeing you if you get nearby. We actually watched the Super Bowl with Steve Gr. I realized that I started here and Cruising World around xmas 1995. Time does fly.


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

Jeff_H said:


> Serious, seeing those molds stored like that, with their shiny side exposed to the sun is really sad. They must be shot by now if not decades ago.
> 
> Jeff


well.. that is how Egg Harbor Yachts stores their molds... granted, not for decades, but they are just wheeled outside and left until they need to build another sport fisherman


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## Rhapsody-NS27 (Apr 8, 2012)

mad_machine said:


> well.. that is how Egg Harbor Yachts stores their molds... granted, not for decades, but they are just wheeled outside and left until they need to build another sport fisherman


Other manufacturers leave their molds outside too so they might last a while. Maybe depends on how they're made.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Are you sure that is not junk?

A mold is a valuable thing with a limited life, at least if they want perfect hulls.

Normally shipyards take good care of molds at least while they are not outdated.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

PCP said:


> Are you sure that is not junk?
> 
> A mold is a valuable thing with a limited life, at least if they want perfect hulls.
> 
> Normally shipyards take good care of molds at least while they are not outdated.


Paulo,
Just curious would you know what a very rough material cost only (no labor) would be to build a hull for a boat using the molds you have pictured?
Regards


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## Arjen (Jan 18, 2012)

Rough guestimate:

that being something like 12m boat for about 50 square metres of fibreglass, at say 8mm thickness that would be roughly 100 gallons of rasin and 50 square metres of glass per layer. probably you get a better price when buying those amounts than when you buy 1/4th gallon 

(so those 25k should be more than plenty enough actually)


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

casey1999 said:


> Paulo,
> Just curious would you know what a very rough material cost only (no labor) would be to build a hull for a boat using the molds you have pictured?
> Regards


No, but I know that it depends on the technique. If vacuum infusion and epoxy resins are used you use a lot less material and that's why the boats made that way are lighter.

Regards

Paulo


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

I think the hardest part of laying your own hull up would be knowing where to lay it on extra thick and which areas get more glass.

The good news is.. for more money, you could always go CF. even if you don't vacuum bag it, it would still be stronger than FG


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## Rhapsody-NS27 (Apr 8, 2012)

mad_machine said:


> I think the hardest part of laying your own hull up would be knowing where to lay it on extra thick and which areas get more glass.
> 
> The good news is.. for more money, you could always go CF. even if you don't vacuum bag it, it would still be stronger than FG


I was thinking it might be easier to find a company that can sell only a bare hull/deck kit and finish it out. I haven't found many places that do hull's only.


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

if you are going to do that.. why not just buy a really shabby boat that still has a decent hull/deck and strip and redo it how you want?


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

mad_machine said:


> if you are going to do that.. why not just buy a really shabby boat that still has a decent hull/deck and strip and redo it how you want?


Exactly - when I bought my complete & floating Columbia 43 (that "demonstrated a high degree of deferred maintenance") a VERY similar bare hull moulding (no deck) from a local manufacturer would have cost 4X as much. Also, that was 10 years ago, before the big drop in used boat prices.

Building from a bare hull is virtually certain to be the most expensive way you can acquire a boat and it will take a BIG chunk out of your life, frequently including your wife and family.

Nowadays it makes no sense - buy something close with good bones and customize it.


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

look at what Lackey did with an old Pearson Triton hull

The Daysailor | Building a Classic Daysailor


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## Rhapsody-NS27 (Apr 8, 2012)

mad_machine said:


> look at what Lackey did with an old Pearson Triton hull
> 
> The Daysailor | Building a Classic Daysailor


I like looking at his main site at the project logs. I found his site from looking at certain models of boats and he just happened to restore one. Very good photo log of his work.


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

he took away my fear of rotted decks. I can do glassfibre work.. I had no idea how easy it was to cut off the upper layer, chipout/cleanout the old balsa, and replace


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

mad_machine said:


> he took away my fear of rotted decks. I can do glassfibre work.. I had no idea how easy it was to cut off the upper layer, chipout/cleanout the old balsa, and replace


It's simple, not easy. I spent last summer doing patch repairs of the deck on my old 43'. Not much more complicated than making peanut butter sandwiches but I sweated off 30 unmissed Lbs doing it.  As long as you are prepared to tackle a fairly big job there is nothing to fear about it.

I found stripping the bottom to the gelcoat, fairing and epoxy coating it to be as big a job and far harder due to having to work overhand.


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

working on the bottom, I might have to either farm out or do in small chunks. I have a problem with my right shoulder that makes it very sore to work overhead or if I pull my arm behind the centre line of my body.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

Those with a huge financial stake in constant design changes, and the building of new boats, are highly unlikely to support the concept of older boats still being good cruising boats.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

mad_machine said:


> I think the hardest part of laying your own hull up would be knowing where to lay it on extra thick and which areas get more glass.
> 
> The good news is.. for more money, you could always go CF. even if you don't vacuum bag it, it would still be stronger than FG


 When a boat lays on her side on a beach , initially, the only two places which touch are the turn of the bilge and the bottom of the keel. You could build those areas up to several inches thick, using scraps, and it would drastically improve your chances of surviving a grounding. Until they broke up , the beach would never touch the rest of the hull. It would also have zero effect on performance.
That could easily be done to an older, single skin hull, not so easy on a cored hull.


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