# Jeanneau, the worst boat for the money?



## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

Jeanneau sailboats for sale by owner.

Just happened to be browsing here the other day, and noticed you could get a 51' Jeanneau for less then $100,000. WOAH.

Compared to any other boat claiming to be a blue water boat of the same age,
Tayana sailboats for sale by owner.
$100,000K will only get you a 42' Tayana, that is 8 years older.
For a boat in the same range and age your looking at $300,000.
Am I missing something or are these Jeanneau boats aging like an open bottle of wine?

Looks like you can score a 52' Tayana for $200,000


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## tomandchris (Nov 11, 2009)

Saw the two at $150K+, but not the one at $100K. What exactly is your question? Tayana's and Jeanneau are much different makers, especially 20+ years ago.

Many of the French boats of that era, and this era for that matter, were made for the charter trade. The boat in Mexico with 4 cabins and 4 heads screams charter to me. So, charter it for 5-10 years+, then put it to other use for 10+ years, and the price may be right. Not many Tayana's in the charter trade.


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

Question is, should a person looking for a yacht for themselves, be looking at a boat like this.
Your right, I do not know of any tayanas in charter. 
That in itself may be enough reason to not buy a new one for yourself.
Who is going to buy your well loved boat that is 20 years old, when there are ex charter boats for half price?


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

I don't see a Jeanneau 51 for 100k, although there is one in Mexico for 160k . I also see a Tayana 54 around the same age for $200k...

When you see an unusually cheap boat you have to look at the details. Where is the boat? What condition is it in? How desperate is the seller? I don't think you can judge a manufacturer's entire product line based on the asking price of a couple of 20 year old models. A lot can happen to a boat in 20 years!

You also have to look at the original purchase prices of the boats you are comparing. Does a new Tayana go for the same price as a new Jeanneau?


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## tomandchris (Nov 11, 2009)

The 20 year old well loved Jeanneau from today is a lot different than the 20 year old Jeanneau that was in charter. Hours on engine (s), wear and tear a lot different than a personal craft whether live aboard or not, etc. makes the difference. 

There are many people that buy boats out of charter after 5 years, refit them, and they are fine. Hopefully a buyer of this type of boat is smart enough to do their due diligence. They will definetely find lots of things to consider.

A beautiful new Jeanneau 54 DS is a lot different animal than a Tayana of any vintage. Space is amazing. Different strokes for different folks.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

UP,

I am not sure precisely what you are trying to say but you are comparing Tayanas which are generally very well built, and equipped, and which generally are truely capable long distance cruisers to Jenneaus which are comparatively lightly constructed coastal cruisers that are aimed at the value oriented marketplace.

For many people, who are mostly doing light coastal cruising, value oriented boats like Jenneaus, Hunters, Beneteaus, and Catalinas work just fine. 

But, as TomandChris pointed out, there is very good chance that the bargain-priced Jeanneaus were in the charter trade, which normally implies under equipped and beat to death. Having ridden shotgun through a few charterboat rehabs, I would have to say that the Tayanas at twice the initial price are probably way more than twice the boat for less money invested by the time you have put the Jenneau into an equal condition. At that point you are stuck with a Jenneau that has way to much invested in it to ever recoup a reasonable % of the expenditures because the value of the Jenneaus are limited by what they are. 

Jeff


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

Your very correct jeff, but many do a circumnavigation on a Jeanneau.
Tayana is one example, based on jeaneau calling themselves a true blue water boat.
Not sure if a catalina was ever sold as such? I would use the jeanneau along the coast, but for a transpac i would not.


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

tomandchris said:


> A beautiful new Jeanneau 54 DS is a lot different animal than a Tayana of any vintage. Space is amazing. Different strokes for different folks.


very true, they do a nice open look with huge flat open cockpits. great for days at the dock, not so much for force 10 seas. I like my twin forward bulkheads, rudder post isolated from the rest of the boat, aft bulkhead, and well attached keel, and rudder. I will take the smaller looking interior, with tons of storage and large tanks to a dock queen, but hey. everyone likes something different. Its not just tayanas, I enjoy a well built boat, with a lot of woodwork down below, and above.


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

As to the Jeanneau 51 for 100k, I always assume 2/3 asking price is the real price that an owner will take for a boat. Thou I typically offered 1/3 asking, or less, when I was buying mine.


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## tomandchris (Nov 11, 2009)

*Re: Jeanneau, the worst bost for the money?*

So, bottom line, this thread was your way of saying that your Tayana brand is so much better? Tayana is a great boat as designed, and if kept to standards, it continues to be a great boat.There are also crappy Tayana's out there waiting for someone to buy them...just not as many.

I know a couple that is out there now with a Jeanneau 54. I don't think that they are stupied enough, with all the equipment they have on board, to get into force 10, but force 8 certainly and the boat has come through just fine.

I know from previous threads on this and other boards that you KNOW that your boat will handle 30' breaking seas. I also know that you have turned back because of 8' breaking waves being over your crews limit. I give you credit for your dream, and the work you are attempting to upgrade your boat. However, a year ago you were planning your 6 day trip from NY to south Florida and you are now where? St. Augustine? How much of that did you actually sail?


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

UnionPacific said:


> ...
> Who is going to buy your well loved boat that is 20 years old, when there are ex charter boats for half price?


Because ex-charter boats, sometimes no matter the age, are usually not so well-loved.

Aren't you comparing apples (Tayana) and oranges (Jeanneau)?


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

Clearly the purpose of this thread is to express his disdain for Jeanneaus and boats like them. Calling them "dock queens" implies that if you own one then you must spend all your time tied up sipping cocktails. You are clearly not a real sailor like a Tayana owner is!

Get over yourself! People choose the boats based on the type of sailing they want to do, and different types of sailing require different compromises. Of course a properly equipped blue water boat is going to cost more than a coastal cruiser! On the other hand just because you bought a "blue water" boat doesn't make you a superior sailor, nor does it make your boat a superior boat when you are not crossing oceans. 

I am sure a well equipped Jeanneau 51 is capable of going anywhere a similarly equipped Tayana can go. It will probably even get there faster! And while they are waiting for you to arrive they can kick back and enjoy that nice comfy cockpit!


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

*Re: Jeanneau, the worst bost for the money?*



tomandchris said:


> So, bottom line, this thread was your way of saying that your Tayana brand is so much better? Tayana is a great boat as designed, and if kept to standards, it continues to be a great boat.There are also crappy Tayana's out there waiting for someone to buy them...just not as many.
> 
> I know a couple that is out there now with a Jeanneau 54. I don't think that they are stupied enough, with all the equipment they have on board, to get into force 10, but force 8 certainly and the boat has come through just fine.
> 
> I know from previous threads on this and other boards that you KNOW that your boat will handle 30' breaking seas. I also know that you have turned back because of 8' breaking waves being over your crews limit. I give you credit for your dream, and the work you are attempting to upgrade your boat. However, a year ago you were planning your 6 day trip from NY to south Florida and you are now where? St. Augustine? How much of that did you actually sail?


nah, not a Tayana praise thread. Just another reason I think jeanneau is a junk boat for offshore work.

You may view our entire voyage on our blog, nothing is hidden, and I am ashamed of nothing. 1/3 of the voyage had enough wind to sail, 2/3rds was offshore. The crew is still learning to adapt to bad seas, and she cannot wait to get back out again for another long trip. I am hoping she will be promoted soon, and we can move to the next location, as St Augustine is quite boring after the second month. I am glad we are here at a dock for a while, I had a lot of projects, both ascetic and mechanical, to do.

This has little to do with us thou, and a lot to do with yacht sale prices, and value holding ability.

To be honest, I am a fan of Albin Vega 27's. I am a complete fanboy. I like those more then Tayana.


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

SchockT said:


> I am sure a well equipped Jeanneau 51 is capable of going anywhere a similarly equipped Tayana can go. It will probably even get there faster! And while they are waiting for you to arrive they can kick back and enjoy that nice comfy cockpit!


I like that comment 
I bet its faster, so is a volvo ocean racer. When the weather gets rough, do they keep going flat out in their jeanneau? How does it handle the big waves? I am truely curious, and would not pass up a chance to sail on one so I may compare. All of the old salts I have talked to say going heavy increases comfort. It does decrease speed.

I challenge the Jeanneau to a drake passage, when they arrive in Antarctica they can sip all the cockpit cocktails they want.


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## tomandchris (Nov 11, 2009)

This is just one more instance of your asking a question, getting input, and then going with what you wanted to think in the first place. Your perceptions of yourself, your abilities, and your boat are far to inflated for reality. You are either one of those people that is dangerous to others because of their inflated opinions of their ability....or one of those people that talk about the adventure until you find an excuse not to make the adventure a reality. My bet is on both!

Currently you still have a potentially nice Tayana in need of a lot of work...and she is a dock queen. Bet your neighbors love her. Play some movies about the roaring 40's on your wide screen and pretend you are an expert.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

What type of boat is your Union Pacific? I’ve looked at your Blog, but it isn’t very evident. An “about us” or “Union Pacific” tab would greatly enhance the blog IMHO. Perhaps you can also provide a synopsis of your trip down the coast because, when I read it, it sounded that you were doing harbor hopping and not an offshore passage in the classic sense. For what it’s worth, I’ve been to both Horta and Gran Caneria, and there a lot of Beneteau and Jeanneau boats in both.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

So is Antarctica your next destination? Somehow I doubt that! I don't think I would take either boat there even if I was interested in such a n adventure.

Comparing a Jeanneau to a VOR boat? Really?

There are a lot of old salts out there that will tell you a lot of things. Ok sure, in big seas perhaps a Tayana is more comfortable. There are the compromises again. Some are content to go slow and be comfortable when they occasionally get themselves into stinky weather, others would rather go fast and tough it out in the bad stuff, and be more comfortable most of the time.

I am curious, you said that only 1/3 of your last journey had enough wind to sail....how much wind do you need? Do you think a lighter more performance oriented boat might have been able to sail more? Again the compromises!


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

GeorgeB said:


> What type of boat is your Union Pacific? I've looked at your Blog, but it isn't very evident. An "about us" or "Union Pacific" tab would greatly enhance the blog IMHO. Perhaps you can also provide a synopsis of your trip down the coast because, when I read it, it sounded that you were doing harbor hopping and not an offshore passage in the classic sense. For what it's worth, I've been to both Horta and Gran Caneria, and there a lot of Beneteau and Jeanneau boats in both.


Check the facebook page, we have a nice writeup there on what type, designer, ect.
I do not like the limited page format options on blogger.
Then I am not a webpage artist. 
Yeah, I think you could call it harbor hopping. We had no generator for the trip and the first 3/4 was freezing cold. If only I would have had 6 more months to prep...


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## zedboy (Jul 14, 2010)

I was on a couple of 10-15 year old Jeanneaus recently, while checking out the fleets of various sailing clubs here. Under gentle usage, they were holding up very nicely - club use is basically daysailing with max a long weekend out per month, nothing longer than ~150 miles and never out in more than 25 knots.

I think that reflects what they were designed for and do admirably. I could believe that amount of time in charter would take a lot more out of a boat, and I could believe a Ty could take a lot more of certain kinds of abuse.


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

SchockT said:


> I am curious, you said that only 1/3 of your last journey had enough wind to sail....how much wind do you need? Do you think a lighter more performance oriented boat might have been able to sail more? Again the compromises!


We were windless for 1/3. We had nights of motoring that apparent wind, was the only wind. the rest of the time was very rough. In fact we either had the #3 jib up, or nothing. I do not know about a lighter boat, never owned anything light.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Union, I do not have access to Facebook. Can you give be just the basic facts? (I’m getting really curious now!). I seem to recall that your original plan was to take Union down to Patagonia and run crewed charters to Antarctica? Now it sounds like you’re thinking of Europe via New York. Why the change? And why not do the Hamilton – Horta – mainland route? I’ve sailed in cold weather and sailed in warm(er) weather and I pick warmer every time.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

In 2009, when I was searching for a boat to buy, there were quite a few 51' 4 cabin/4 head Bene's coming out of the charter trade, being offered around 50k. Of course things were significantly different then, but still, if someone had no idea of what they were buying, they might think they were getting a blue water cruiser at a steal. There are quite a few of these still around (usually several in any anchorage down this way) that show their hard lives vividly.
I think you'd be hard pressed to pick the worst boat made, just by her asking price. There are plenty of mid-size boats out there, with asking prices well over 150k, that are nothing more than weekend condos that float, yet some people have circumnavigated them. Garbage is garbage, no matter how much one spends (or doesn't spend) on it.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

I just had a quick peek at your blog. Your "boat buyers guide" caught my attention:

I find it interesting and somewhat telling that you categorize boats based on fuel consumption!

Is your boat by any chance a motor sailed? You seem to place more importance on motoring than most sailors would....


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

GeorgeB said:


> Union, I do not have access to Facebook. Can you give be just the basic facts? (I'm getting really curious now!). I seem to recall that your original plan was to take Union down to Patagonia and run crewed charters to Antarctica? Now it sounds like you're thinking of Europe via New York. Why the change? And why not do the Hamilton - Horta - mainland route? I've sailed in cold weather and sailed in warm(er) weather and I pick warmer every time.


no, no crewed charters to Antarctica, lol. We had planned to visit.
My wife has no interest in the visit thou. I am looking to perhaps join a crew on drake's boat. I become very LT dan when the weather is bad. 
The plan is still fluid, and we will not leave until 2016.
This should give us coffers big enough to have a child, and cruise for 10 years, without stopping for money.

A more recent thought provides for starting by doing the great loop, for a last visit of family before we head off. We will decide in the last 4 months for sure. Our plans are written in the sand at low tide.

Our yacht is a 48' Tayana Bermuda rigged schooner.
What else would you like to know.


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

SchockT said:


> I just had a quick peek at your blog. Your "boat buyers guide" caught my attention:
> 
> I find it interesting and somewhat telling that you categorize boats based on fuel consumption!
> 
> Is your boat by any chance a motor sailed? You seem to place more importance on motoring than most sailors would....


I am a diesel mechanic. I can't keep my hands off the beast, and have been upgrading, and updating her for the entire year we have owned her 

Fuel consumption is a major cost for everyone. You must either rig your boat to run without it, at great expense, or you will end up burning fuel too.
Personally we are trying for 1400 watts of solar, and 400-1000 watts of wind. We wish to keep fuel cost a 3-5 times a year bill.

My foresight sees a global dock average of more then $10 per gallon in the next 10 years. In some places, it cost that now. When and if we ever build our custom boat, it will be a home made hybrid with an electric drive.


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

capta said:


> In 2009, when I was searching for a boat to buy, there were quite a few 51' 4 cabin/4 head Bene's coming out of the charter trade, being offered around 50k. Of course things were significantly different then, but still, if someone had no idea of what they were buying, they might think they were getting a blue water cruiser at a steal. There are quite a few of these still around (usually several in any anchorage down this way) that show their hard lives vividly.
> I think you'd be hard pressed to pick the worst boat made, just by her asking price. There are plenty of mid-size boats out there, with asking prices well over 150k, that are nothing more than weekend condos that float, yet some people have circumnavigated them. Garbage is garbage, no matter how much one spends (or doesn't spend) on it.


Very true. I would bring up the nordhavn 56MS. 
They made 9, 4 or 5 are for sale.
Asking price? 1,000,000+. For what? A boat that makes buyers suffer buyers remorse? I like the nord trawlers, but I think the 56MS is garbage, expensive garbage.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

I couldn’t find anything on your boat (albeit after only a cursory search). What is your hull number? And how many were ultimately made? The sloop and cutter 48s are a Perry hull – same as yours? What was your fuel consumption from New York to Florida? Hourly rate? I did a quick calculation on your proposed solar panel array and it comes out to between eight and 16 panels. How are you going to mount them? Don’t wind generators top out at about 500 watts? Not sure I’d like one of those things cranking out 40 Amps near my head. If you have two or three 4D batteries, why all the power production? What is your energy budget like and why is it so high? At sea, I’ve never really consumed more than 200 Amps in a 24 hour period. More typical was 150-160. Good discussion. My own plan is to shove off in the fall of ‘15, ’16 at the latest.


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

The boat is very rare. 5 or 6 made.
Its designed by Pieter Beeldsnijder. The same person who designed one of the three largest sailboats in the world.
It has been sloop rigged and cutter rigged as well. there are only two like mine. 
The true carbon copy is Prisanna II

For solar I am planning a folding array for on the boomkin. 
There will be 4 fixed 230 watt panels, 12' wide, and two folding 230 watt panels.
The folding panels will fold down when at a dock, or seawall.
I am also planning two panels on top of the future hard enclosure. thats 1700 rated watts, that will realistically deliver 1400 in full sunlight.

Batteries will be 5, 4D, for a total of 1000AH.

Loads will be a deep freezer and a upright fridge an alpha 3000, and portable electronics. 
Now and then we will use the TV and computer. The computer draws about 400-700 watts.
As for wind power, its not settled yet exactly what models, but I will mount the big one far up the mainmast, and I may mount one more on the boomkin.

All of this power will feed into the big bank, then into a inverter/charger.
This will be backed up by the new generator, 3500watts, and a 105 amp balmar I have just finished installing.

The plan is, if we are in a very hot location, before bed we can run the AC for an hour or two to cool the boat before we go to sleep, all on solar.
The main AC draws ~1500 watts two hours will use 300AH, and not even bother the batteries.
On a really nasty night we can use the bedroom AC, it only draws ~800 watts, we could run it almost all night, with maybe a 2-3 hour generator run midway thru the night.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

You found a 4D with 200 Ah? can you give me the brand name and dimensions? Have you considered going all golf carts? I'm assuming that your plan is to run "apartment style" appliances on 120 VAC? for example, I have a laptop that runs on a fraction of what you are forecasting. Personally, I do OK without airconditioning in the tropics. As long as there is a fan, I'm OK. For me, the biggest problem is sleeping in the V Berth while underway, when I cannot have a port light open for ventalation.


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

The battery is an interstate SRM-4D. 
I considered going with forklift batteries. These will last 6-7 years, cost $200 each. If one fails in 3 years from a defect, I am not out $800.

We have a mixture of both 120 volt, and low power items. I edit video, so a tiny laptop is out. We enjoy movies, so a big screen is being planned. When we are low on power for whatever reason, we have an ipad, and will be buying a macbook air next year. 

All of the lighting we use every day has been upgraded to LED, and I am upgrading all of the nav lights soon to LED. My wife also demands a daily warm shower. We will have a water marker, most likely home made, unless I spot a great deal 

we can deal with just fans too, but if it is humid, hot, and we are going to bed, then AC will be run for a bit.


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## tomandchris (Nov 11, 2009)

If anyone is really interested in the OP you can go to Crusiers Forum and search for Scoobert (which was his user name there) and NY to Fla thread which is long and gives a pretty good indication of just what kind of troll he is. The thread, and most he was part of, have been closed because they are very PC on CF and he left. Therefore no bad mouthing the guy who pissed everyone off and then left. However, it does give you an indication that you may not want to be his dock neighbor and definitely not his crew. You can, though, make a donation at his blog site! Not!!!!

The scary part is that he does not seem to be a real troll.......he just acts like one. Really dangerous!


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## tomandchris (Nov 11, 2009)

Based on his most recent blog it looks as though his real plan is to be a contractor for Tow Boat , because he may end up having more pumping capacity then they have on any of their boats.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

oh, so another BS type person. Only ONE boat that is any good, what they have and or design/build. No other options out there..........

Dang says the person with a Jeanneau that works VERY WELL for my purposes thank you very much. I do not see a use for the OP's choice of a boat frankly.......a schooner rig? didn't they go away at the turn of the century, ie 18 to 19th centuries?!? I could be wrong, been wrong before........will be wrong again in the future at some point in time.......

HERE is my boat in a national rag review. YES, my little 28' Jeanneau........

Marty


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## tomandchris (Nov 11, 2009)

Oh, check out his boat buying guide here on sailnet. That is how he gets to a $100K Jeanneau from a $150 K boat that he would then offer $50K for. I think that there is a reason it is the least subscribed thread ever here....it makes no sense. This person has no credibility at all, yet purports to be an expert on many subjects from boats, diesels, marinas, food, generators, sailing,,,,,


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

blt2ski said:


> oh, so another BS type person. Only ONE boat that is any good, what they have and or design/build. No other options out there..........
> 
> Dang says the person with a Jeanneau that works VERY WELL for my purposes thank you very much. I do not see a use for the OP's choice of a boat frankly.......a schooner rig? didn't they go away at the turn of the century, ie 18 to 19th centuries?!? I could be wrong, been wrong before........will be wrong again in the future at some point in time.......
> 
> ...


There is only one boat that is any good. Albin vega 27. All others need to learn from them.

A schooner rig works great. I have more sail area then I will ever need, and I can go from a storm trisail to 155 genoa, twin full size sails, and a topsail. Also have the possibility in a demasting of only losing one of two masts. I like those odds. It has drawbacks, but has debatable pluses, including uniqueness.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Only one boat that is any good eh?!?!?!? is it car toppable? Someone may want a sail boat that can be car toppable......not sure a Vega 27 is. It might be reasonably trailerable tho......maybe, so it could get to some of the larger land locked lakes for going about here and there for a few days. While one did go around the Americas a year or two ago, not sure it would be my first choice per say. 

Then again, your Tayana would not be my first choice for sailing around the world either. I do know of a 7 yr old jeanneau SO49iP I would sail around the world with. It has been from the NW US to Oz and back, with a family of 4 on board. Did 16 knots with one of the 100 lbs dripping wet 14 yr old daughters with a full main and Asym up. She was fingertip sailing it at the wheel in 20' following seas.....can your tayana do that? Then again, your tayana may motor up the inland waterway on the east coast, this rig at 65-70' tall would be on the outside.

Reality is, there is NO BEST BOAT! Or make, or model or whatever! ALL are a which positive is best vs worst. Just like your schooner rig as you admit. So to say a Jeanneau is a bad boat due to resale being lower than a tayana....hmmmmm.......it still might be a better boat, but which brand sells more boats? Not that that is a good way to say which is the best boat. Mickey D's sells more burgers than any one else too, they are not the best burger, nor is staryucks the best coffee! Heck, they can not even do a hot chocolate correct much less caugh-ee!

Marty


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## Jaramaz (Aug 9, 2013)

UnionPacific said:


> There is only one boat that is any good. Albin vega 27. All others need to learn from them.


The Vega is a true coastal cruiser. Designed by Per Brohäll for harbour hopping, during the 60-ies. Not intended for longer trips, and of course not Drakes or any such. Per Brohäll designed a series of boats in this size, then moved on to small boat maintenance - his family still running one of the largest maintenance yards in Sweden.

Build quality is ... not the best. The Albin company started as a marine engine maker (the petrol 021 is famous, the Volvo Penta MD 6 and 7 are based on Albin designs), unfortunately moved on to small sailboat building where they was one of the first to employ industrial methods to small boat building ... and went burst some few years later.

Vegas are being scrapped here now, no one wants them even if given.

Sorry to say, UP assessments doesn't make sense.

/J


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Doesn't really seem to be a credible need to defend Jeanneau, but I will for the sake of it. Our 54DS is one the most comfortable, fastest and I think, prettiest, boats I've ever been on. Build quality is good, not cheap. Certainly not bullet proof, certainly not at the level of the highest end builders, but brass and stainless abound, not the plastic or fake teak I see on some.

It was their flagship model at the time, so they may have put a bit more into her. I understand it remains the highest selling boat over 50 ft ever made.

Just as with a charter boat vs owner boat, I think quality can be model to model too. But I am a fan of Jeanneau, both for value and performance.


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## Jaramaz (Aug 9, 2013)

Minne, I will not argue against you. 

I do not agree with generalizations over a wide product range. Jen, as well as many other volume boat builders (bav, Bene, ...), have produced many different models over the years. 
- Not all of these sail well, which is understandable as not all have been designed for that (thare are other factors in life).

But, and this is the main point here: There is no real foundation for claiming the quality of Jen (and Bav, Bene, ..whatever) should be inferior. If that was the case, the company would cease to exist - it is a hard competition these days.

/J


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

Jaramaz said:


> The Vega is a true coastal cruiser. Designed by Per Brohäll for harbour hopping, during the 60-ies. Not intended for longer trips, and of course not Drakes or any such.
> 
> /J


vega's have been around the horn, across the pacific, into inland lakes, and back again. If I was single, that would be my 1st choice boat.

They are used off shore regularly. http://cruisinglealea.com/\
About the Challenge | Solo Around the America's Under Sail

A dana 24 is also nice, but far too expensive to recommend.

I am a small boat fan, and more impressed by someone crossing the pacific in a small boat, then a 90' cat.


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

Jaramaz said:


> But, and this is the main point here: There is no real foundation for claiming the quality of Jen (and Bav, Bene, ..whatever) should be inferior. If that was the case, the company would cease to exist - it is a hard competition these days.
> 
> /J


jean, lagoon, bene, all the same CO, all having major issues.
Rudders, keels, bulkheads that are not bulkheads. You can do a google search and find many issues on the build quality on them.

Lagoon Litigation » The facts, the litigation, the arbitration and issues.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Union, there is a dearth of information out there on the web for your boat which makes sense if there were only six made. Therefore, please fill in a few more blanks for me please. What is the size and make of your engine? Fuel tankage and hourly consumption? You talk of two bulkheads and that they are intrinsically different than modern ones. How so? And where are they placed on your boat? You talk of an isolated rudder - is that another way of saying “spade rudder”. Without a line drawing, I need your descriptions. Finally , can you define the phrase "LT Dan"? I am unfamiliar with the term (I even consulted my Patrick O’Brien dictionary with no avail)


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

LT dan was in forest gump, he climbed the rig of the shrimp boat and shouted at the waves as they grew larger.

The rudder is in the lazarette, its only joined to the main bilge by a 1/2" hole for water drainage. Even if my rudder, and skeg were sheared off, and there was a big hole in the bilge, it would not take on much more water the about 12" over a surface area of about 4' x 2', with only a 1/2" hole to let water into the main bilge, that could be easily plugged.
The rudder is skeg mounted.

The forward most bulkhead is the head door. the door seals, and again only a 1/2" hole exists into the forward bilge. The second is the door on the forward stateroom, however with 1' of water on the floor to the waterline from the bottom of the bilge, I am not sure if this would cause sinking or not? either way it would provide more time in the case of a major hull breach.

The engine was originally a peugeot diesel, 53HP, replaced by the previous owner with a 63HP westerbeke. Fuel tankage from the factory was 100 gallons, the previous owner added 40 gallons aft. Burn rate is rated at 1.2GPH, and that seemed on par at about 7KTs at 2200RPM, backing the revs down to 1500 brought speed to 6KTS and fuel burn to about 0.6GPH.


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

Here is an aluminum knock off of our boat 
PIETER BEELDSNIJDER 45 sailing yacht for sale | De Valk Yacht broker - Jachtmakelaar
No idea on productions number on these?


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

Here is one with our rig.
P. BEELDSNIJDER SURPRISE 45 sailing yacht for sale | De Valk Yacht broker - Jachtmakelaar


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

Here is the aluminum knock off after she was bought, I just found this one.


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## Jaramaz (Aug 9, 2013)

UnionPacific said:


> jean, lagoon, bene, all the same CO, all having major issues.
> Rudders, keels, bulkheads that are not bulkheads. You can do a google search and find many issues on the build quality on them.
> 
> ...


Union, this you have misunderstood fundamentally.

Firstly, you claim that the fact that some few Vegas has been doin this or that is some kind of sign of quality. It is not, it just proves that these guys did succeed to do this or that with that Vega.

Secondly, you do not have any understanding of statistics. If a model is produced in a series, lets say 1000 copies - what is then the likelihood of some damages reported?

Thirdly, you say "bulkheads that are not bulkheads". This gives the impression that you do want a bulkhead to be very solid and so on. Now if you could make a calculation of the strength of a boat with bulkheads ... then you would understand that strength doesn't come from being solid, or "tensile strength".

It seems you prefer solid and heavy things, preferably as they were done "before". You are not the only one in this, many others have the same interest. That is perfectly OK. Go on and enjoy your nice boat.
But do understand that there are other solutions, that fit others demands. There is no need to trash talk these people and their boats. 
(It is easy to trash talk anyone, and any boat - all boats are compromises, and thus open to criticism) .

/J


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

Jaramaz said:


> Union, this you have misunderstood fundamentally.
> 
> Firstly, you claim that the fact that some few Vegas has been doin this or that is some kind of sign of quality. It is not, it just proves that these guys did succeed to do this or that with that Vega.
> 
> ...


I am not talking about bulkheads adding strength or stiffness.
http://www.lagoonlitigation.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Survey-4-Survey-Report-Pic.pdf
I have been up enough 40' ladders made of fiberglass to know what flex is, I also understand that objects that are too stiff can snap, if pushed past the design limits.
I am talking about bulkheads used to prevent, or slow, sinking. Watertight, well attached. A fiberglass hull can be punctured, it happens, or more often a thru hull can rupture, or a rudder can be broken, Its better to be afloat with no rudder, then sinking.
As for solidly built, I see the keels are bolted on, and the backing plate being very small. I will pass on that one completely. the small mounting area, is very poor for strength. 
I will travel 1KT slower, in exchange for a hove to boat that will survive the storm that may come.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Faster can be safer too. Shorter passage windows. Greater ability to maneuver around the worst of it.

In the end, the skipper has as much to do with the passage as the boat. 

How any of these arguments supports the thread title is beyond me. Of course, Jeanneau's perennial viability disproves this thread anyway.


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

Minnewaska said:


> How any of these arguments supports the thread title is beyond me. Of course, Jeanneau's perennial viability disproves this thread anyway.


too many issues with them to ignore. I dont expect a 50' boat to drop a rudder, a 50' cat to sink, or a keel to fall off.


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

You know, if you were to debate pluses and minuses of specific building practices of a Jeaneau vs a (pick your brand) it could probably done in a constructive way. (ie. I prefer through bolted and glassed inward turned flanges to plexor and screw's and here is why).... Calling someone wife cheap only gets you a poke in the nose.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

dont waste your time guys...I can count 3 or 4 threads that go bust cause of this enlightened person...

honestly save yor breath

someone else said it better this is a troll who isnt actually a troll, therefore watch out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## FarCry (Apr 21, 2007)

UnionPacific said:


> I dont expect a 50' boat to drop a rudder, a 50' cat to sink, or a keel to fall off.


Expectations are just resentments waiting to happen. I don't let myself expect much out of threads started by UP, thus I have no resentment. It does have the feeling of a slow motion collision as others get sucked into the absurdity of trying to use logic against someone who apparently wishes to aggravate as many as possible. I'm frankly surprised that people here will continue to feed him.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

ohhhhhhhh another ignore thread is this! 

Master Denby will be so proud!

Ignoring, run along, nothing to see or hear here!

Marty


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

blt2ski said:


> ohhhhhhhh another ignore thread is this!
> 
> Master Denby will be so proud!
> 
> ...


ig·nore
igˈnôr/
verb

refuse to take notice of or acknowledge; disregard intentionally.

Thought you should know the definition of the word, as you obviously do not know what ignore means.

recognize is the word you seek.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

UP, I have been sailing for 40+ years and have done tens of thousands of offshore miles and I would never pretend to know as much about long distance passage making as you profess to. One of the most important things I have leaned in a circumnavigation is how much more there is to learn. You do yourself no favours when you pontificate about things you know little about.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

*Re: Jeanneau, the worst bost for the money?*



UnionPacific said:


> nah, not a Tayana praise thread. Just another reason I think jeanneau is a junk boat for offshore work.


This is me - rolling my eyes and shaking my head.



UnionPacific said:


> I like that comment
> I bet its faster, so is a volvo ocean racer. When the weather gets rough, do they keep going flat out in their jeanneau? How does it handle the big waves? I am truely curious, and would not pass up a chance to sail on one so I may compare.


You have an interesting way of asking to sail on someone's Jeanneau. Good luck with that.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

UnionPacific said:


> I have been up enough 40' ladders made of fiberglass to know what flex is, I also understand that objects that are too stiff can snap, if pushed past the design limits.


The simple answer there is to just lay off the twinkies a bit.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

This is a fun thread. Carry on.


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

killarney_sailor said:


> UP, I have been sailing for 40+ years and have done tens of thousands of offshore miles and I would never pretend to know as much about long distance passage making as you profess to. One of the most important things I have leaned in a circumnavigation is how much more there is to learn. You do yourself no favours when you pontificate about things you know little about.


Experience does not make one good at something. 
I know a lot of boaters, who have been boating for dozens of years, they still do not understand how their own engine operates. With years also comes complacency.


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

smackdaddy said:


> This is a fun thread. Carry on.


your correct, fun. It should be moved if we get too far off topic.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

UnionPacific said:


> your correct, fun. It should be moved if we get too far off topic.


That's okay. It's a goofy topic anyway.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

UnionPacific said:


> Experience does not make one good at something.
> I know a lot of boaters, who have been boating for dozens of years, they still do not understand how their own engine operates. With years also comes complacency.


So not having experience makes one more of an expert? That is an interesting take on it. I understand you are diesel mechanic but remember that your engine is just a small part of the whole business of extended cruising. BTW, I do know how my engine works and can fix most things on it.

Also have quite a bit of experience and knowledge with sailing (those big, mostly white things), navigation, anchoring, what a lot of countries are like, dealing with officials, weather, route planning, etc. There is a more to it than you think there is. If you found going from the the US Northeast to Florida any sort of challenge get ready for a big learning curve to bite you in the butt.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

UnionPacific said:


> your correct, fun. It should be moved if we get too far off topic.


what really is the topic :laugher


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

It was a challenge, only because the boat was not ready for the trip. 
It would have taken 6 more months to get the boat ready for the trip.
We enjoyed the trip up until the ICW, that was boredom, punctuated with brief stints of fun. We are hoping to be out of this town in the next 4 months, and onto the next location.
I am afraid the wife has no desire to do the extremely challenging things I want to do, 
so I will most likely be looking to crew a few places in the world. As I have said in the past, bad weather excites me, not scares me.

Yes, anyone could sail for 100 years, and not learn much. Some can circumnavigate and never get hit by a storm of any major force. Others die within sight of shore. Reading, both books, and journals of experience, can provide more information then one may gain in a lifetime. I happen to spend much of my time reading, and my absorption of information is very good. 

As I have done before, I will prove the nay-sayers wrong, and make the next trip, and the next trip. Thats not really what this thread is about..

In my reading I have come across many disturbing things about a major brand of yachts, the Jeanneau corp. From massive numbers of rudder failures, to the death of the people who lost the keel, to the sinking of a lagoon 500 due to a dinghy painter getting sucked into the prop. It does not speak well of build quality. Yes, there are many many examples of this yacht out there. I have compared it with what I know well, and that is the Tayana. the Tayana 37 has a production run of over 600. I have found records of a single sinking. Now that they are getting very very old they are showing common plastic boat issues.

Some would argue that Jeanneau is a coastal boat, but thats not how they are sold.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

UnionPacific said:


> ...my adsorption of information is very good.


Hah hah hah hah!!!! That's perfect!

"Adsorption" is a term from chemistry that means adhesion only to the surface. It is very different from "absorption" which means soaking in and spreading throughout.

It may be a chemistry term, but I think you used it appropriately here.


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## tomandchris (Nov 11, 2009)

I was ignoring this thread, but today have a reason to point to some really good things about Jeanneau.

Sailed a new Sun Odyssey 379 for a few hours today. Good wind, average 20 kts. The boat sailed like she was on rails.....and fast. It needed the RF main reefed above 15 kts true, but with furled main and 135% she settled down. Averaged high 7 kt speeds, and saw high 8 and low 9 more than once with following seas. I was really surprised, and impressed, with how well she sails down wind. I thought that the lighter weight and smaller dual rudders might make her squirrely, but she proved us wrong. Goes to weather very well, and seemed to be doing very well at 30 degrees off true. 

I found the boat harder to sail single handed because of the set up, but with 2-3 she was a lot of fun. She is a great coastal cruiser.....just what she was designed for. Did I say fast?


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

Minnesail said:


> Hah hah hah hah!!!! That's perfect!
> 
> "Adsorption" is a term from chemistry that means adhesion only to the surface. It is very different from "absorption" which means soaking in and spreading throughout.
> 
> It may be a chemistry term, but I think you used it appropriately here.


Sometimes a spellchecker may be incorrect. However yes, quite comical, I guess.


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8lsWs4W_os#t=204

and this is how it is being sold. I will tell you something, you sail with 9 people in this boat in a hurricane, you will have 9 dead people.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

UnionPacific said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8lsWs4W_os#t=204
> 
> and this is how it is being sold. I will tell you something, you sail with 9 people in this boat in a hurricane, you will have 9 dead people.


That's pretty funny. But, honestly, your UP would probably not fare too well in a hurricane either. At F11-12, it's a crapshoot prayfest anyway...regardless of brand.


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

There's absorb,adsorb and water off a ducks back.


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## tomandchris (Nov 11, 2009)

UnionPacific said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8lsWs4W_os#t=204
> 
> and this is how it is being sold. I will tell you something, you sail with 9 people in this boat in a hurricane, you will have 9 dead people.


I saw that Smack and Capt Len posted to this so decided to see what was happening. Smack got the hurricane part absolutely correct. In fact, if you don't know how to sail well, a small tropical storm can kill you.

You spend very little time watching what you post. If you check the specifics of that youtube video you will see that it is a used boat being sold by a boat broker. Unfortunately, the broker is one who should more time showing the upholstery in the salon that explaining ratings. Bene, Jeanneau, Catalina, Hunter, Hylas, Swan don't make the ratings. They design to them. They do not often market their boats based on the rating.....but they do have the rating. It is not something they slap on for marketing purposes. My Catalina 34 had an A rating, and not once did Catalina staff, sales people, or my broker ever tell me I could sail in a hurricane..,....or offshore for that matter.

You have enough problems with getting your facts to support your theories. Quit making up **** because you think it proves your point. The quote "Often wrong.....never in doubt!" could have been created for you.


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

The broker in the video was actually quite good IMHO and had a lot of things right. Too bad he started with the rating = 9 passengers on a relatively small boat in a hurricane, a situation that the captain of a super tanker would choose to avoid.

Reminds me of the classic tale of the car salesman who after you've said yes is writing up the order, and says something like "you must really like red." And then you say, "that car was red?" and subsequently stop the whole show. 

If you're a good sales guy, you gotta know when to quit, especially if you're going to post it on youtube. Just saying


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

European open ocean rating of Ax, x being how many people on board, only means that that boat should handle a force 10 wind, waves to 10Meters with in this case of this jeanneau boat, 9 people on board. THey many times also have a Bx and Cx rating. The B rating is IIRC force 8 with 8M waves in a semi protected environment. C is reasonably protected with force 8 or maybe lower winds, and smaller height waves. 

A boat the size of my jeanneau has an A6, B7, C8. Not that I would want to be offshore with it in these types of conditions. 

The A rating also means the boat has a designed in place for a life raft among other items that need to be for off shore useage. If you want a real off shore rating and how to setup a boat, look at the IRC racing rules requirements. THey are tougher yet than the Cat A european spec that I am attempting to say what they are. I with all seriousness, doubt the OPs boat will meet the IRC specs, nor will smacks hunter, nor mine! Then again, a lot of it is safety gear that many of us do not carry as a general rule. 

There is no discussion in the ratings as to IF said boat can get thru a force 12 hurricane style issue! 

Back to your scheduled ignoring of said post......should have done so myself!

Marty


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Here is a quick cut-paste from *nnma.org's definition of the CE Ratings*:



> ANNEX I
> ESSENTIAL SAFETY REQUIREMENTS FOR THE DESIGN AND CONSTRUCTION OF RECREATIONAL CRAFT
> 
> 1. BOAT DESIGN CATEGORIES
> ...


F8 (or 9 or 10 or even 11) _does not_ equal "hurricane". Someone needs to tell Buzz before he gets a client into serious trouble out there thinking they can sail into an F12 because there's an "A" on the placard.

Apart from Buzz's very flawed sales pitch - Jeanneaus are great boats. I'd definitely sail one.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Smack, 

Thanks for posting that. I guess my brain was a bit foggy on the actual specs meself. I am pretty sure the true ocean setup was supposed to be Force 10.....maybe that is another brands advertising spec, to show they are stronger/tougher the the CE spec for ocean use.

Marty


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

blt2ski said:


> Smack,
> 
> Thanks for posting that. I guess my brain was a bit foggy on the actual specs meself. I am pretty sure the true ocean setup was supposed to be Force 10.....maybe that is another brands advertising spec, to show they are stronger/tougher the the CE spec for ocean use.
> 
> Marty


No worries bluto. I'm sure F10 has been bandied about for Class A boats (winds up to 55 knots, waves up to 12.5 meters). I've seen plenty of evidence of production boats handling such conditions pretty well.

I just hope UP doesn't really think his Tayana can keep him any safer in a "hurricane" than a Jeanneau.


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

smackdaddy said:


> I just hope UP doesn't really think his Tayana can keep him any safer in a "hurricane" than a Jeanneau.


NO. I have no desire to be in a hurricane. My hubris will dissolve about the time waves get to 10 meters. However I am sure the boat can take many times more then I can. At that point the trisail would go up, drogue out, and I would go below, and hold on.

I had let the topic go until I watched that video.
Never heard anyone say a boat could take 9 people into a hurricane before.:laugher


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

I hope you all knew this fact.





Is this guy serious?


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

What fact?


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## UnionPacific (Dec 31, 2013)

killarney_sailor said:


> What fact?


90% of offshore sailing is on a reach, almost never downwind, or into the wind.

still watching the video, he goes on to say this 46' hunter has $20,000 worth of air conditioning, $20,000 watermaker, $20,000 generator. I should start a new thread, called best broker BS.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Best broker BS has been done before. Anyone in the sport for any amount of time has amassed stories.

None have anything to do with whether a Jeanneau is worth the money.


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## tomandchris (Nov 11, 2009)

UnionPacific said:


> 90% of offshore sailing is on a reach, almost never downwind, or into the wind.
> 
> still watching the video, he goes on to say this 46' hunter has $20,000 worth of air conditioning, $20,000 watermaker, $20,000 generator. I should start a new thread, called best broker BS.


You have enough BS to take care of all the categories. Now you are making a post using your post on a totally different matter to make a point. Stick it!


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## tomandchris (Nov 11, 2009)

UnionPacific said:


> NO. I have no desire to be in a hurricane. My hubris will dissolve about the time waves get to 10 meters. However I am sure the boat can take many times more then I can. At that point the trisail would go up, drogue out, and I would go below, and hold on.
> 
> I had let the topic go until I watched that video.
> Never heard anyone say a boat could take 9 people into a hurricane before.:laugher


Your hubris disolved at 8' not 10 meters.


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

T&C, some hubris knows no limits.


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## zedboy (Jul 14, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> F8 (or 9 or 10 or even 11) _does not_ equal "hurricane". Someone needs to tell Buzz before he gets a client into serious trouble out there thinking they can sail into an F12 because there's an "A" on the placard.


Translation issue, if you can call it that.

Force 8 is a fresh gale. The broker heard "gale" and registered "hurricane".

All about the same for a guy who stays on the hard!


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

UnionPacific said:


> 90% of offshore sailing is on a reach, almost never downwind, or into the wind.


Guess it depends on how you define reach. Most offshore sailing is reaching, often broad reaching. In going around the world I can count the number of times we were hard on the wind on one hand and have a few fingers left over. Sometimes you have to go directly downwind but you try to avoid it if possible because it is slow unless you have a chute or twin headsails up and not very comfy plus hard on the boat.

When we left Bali to go to South Africa our original intention was to go to the northern tip of Madagascar. Turned out not to be a good point of sail with too much rolling and a bit slow for the wind speed (would be worse with a schooner). Changed our minds after three or four days and altered to go to Mauritius and the southern tip of Madagascar. Not a huge course adjustment but made it a broad reach instead of an almost run. More comfortable and we gained 30 to 40 miles a day. You will find that your rig is best for reaching - that is where a schooner shines - upwind and downwind you pay the price.

Cornell's routes are pretty much predicated on giving you a reach. That is why it is west about in the trades and east about in the 40s. I think that it is probably fair to say that 90% of bluewater sailing is reaching (close to broad). This is not to say a boat should not be capable of going downwind or upwind.


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

UnionPacific said:


> 90% of offshore sailing is on a reach, almost never downwind, or into the wind.


I think this post comes under the legal doctrine of res ipsa loquiter. No comment needed.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

Trying to impress us with your French are you?!


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

zedboy said:


> Translation issue, if you can call it that.
> 
> Force 8 is a fresh gale. The broker heard "gale" and registered "hurricane".
> 
> All about the same for a guy who stays on the hard!


Exactly.

What struck me as odd was UP's tying this goofy statement to his subject of this thread, the Jeanneau - i.e. "how they are marketed". This was just a boneheaded (and dangerous) comment from a broker - not Jeanneau. Even so, it doesn't matter one bit what boat this broker was talking about in the video. A Jeanneau, UP's Tayana, an Oyster, an Open 60, whatever - are all going to have a hard time staying above the waves in the open ocean in an F12...hubris or not.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I was off the coast of Newport this past Friday and saw the participants of the Ida Lewis Distance Race heading offshore. As they were a few miles out, one of the boats "Jackknife" hailed the USCG because they lost steering. As the scenario plays out, they were concerned they were going to lose the rudder post entirely and it would threaten the ship. Looking up their tracker, it seems they were towed back to Portsmith. All the while, I wondered what brand boat it was and whether this OP would condemn it forever. Best I can research, she's a C&C Redline 41 that has successfully competed in several offshore races, even won one. Guess they're out, based on this one episode too.

The moral is that any boat can present a problem. It doesn't damn the whole fleet.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Minnewaska said:


> The moral is that any boat can present a problem. It doesn't damn the whole fleet.


It does when you're desperately trying to convince yourself you have the right boat.


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## goat (Feb 23, 2014)

smackdaddy said:


> It does when you're desperately trying to convince yourself you have the right boat.


Maybe after reading the Rebel Heart saga the OP is getting worried about his Made-In-China faux Tayana staying together.

Coincidentally, for the sailing he's done so far, the Jeanneau would have been the optimal boat for him (and he'd be sailing right now).

Scoobert, you really need to spend a bit of time on a Vega. If I recall you're a fairly large fellow and you might change your tune a bit.

goat


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

killarney_sailor said:


> Trying to impress us with your French are you?!


That's not French.


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