# Stackpacks, Lazyjacks, and Mainsail Facts!



## dvuyxx (Jun 23, 2009)

I must admit the one thing I dread is putting the mainsail away. I have lazyjacks with a conventional sail-tie and buckle-down cover setup. I have uttered many profanities at the end of the sailing day.

What's the scoop on the Stack-Pack or mainsail drop-bag (term?) setup? I've seen a few threads on the subject, but I'm still confused?

- Can this type of bag work with my existing lazyjacks?

- Do you have to have full-batten sail for this system? Doyle shows full battens in their photos.

- Can't you just have a canvas shop make one that works around the lazys and flake it into the bag as you zip it up?

- Can the bag roll and tie up along the boom or does it have to stay vertically extended under sail?

- I'd like to see your setup if you have one!

- David


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

dvuyxx said:


> I must admit the one thing I dread is putting the mainsail away. I have lazyjacks with a conventional sail-tie and buckle-down cover setup. I have uttered many profanities at the end of the sailing day.
> 
> What's the scoop on the Stack-Pack or mainsail drop-bag (term?) setup? I've seen a few threads on the subject, but I'm still confused?
> 
> ...


We chartered a 47' Harmony in the Virgins last spring. It was the only boat I've sailed with any of the setups you mentioned and I loved it.

It was lazyjacks with a permanently mounted cover that the jacks went through. It wasn't in very good shape - the cover was well worn and we had to spend time adjusting the jacks - they had kind of slumped or pulled so they were over on the starboard side more than port. Despite this, even when badly adjusted, it was WAY better than flaking and tying a conventional main. It was set up permanently deployed. I'd be inclined to make it so it could be eased and clipped out of the way at the mast.

There was no need for full battens to make it work. The battens hanging up on the topping lift when raising & lowering required a bit of intervention but not a problem.

Best of all, other than the specially cut sailcover, it was all owner built and used a standard main - very low cost. I've seen designs that suggest using micro blocks at every line interface. I can't see this for any reason other than to buy some cool new gear.  They would add a lot of cost as well as chafe on the sail. Spliced eyes at each line intersection worked just fine. Remember the KISS principle. 

I'd *strongly* recommend it.


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## dvuyxx (Jun 23, 2009)

Thanks. Very helpful!


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

My new-to-me Cal 33-2 came with a Dutchman system. FAR superior to any lazy jack system. Sail just drops onto the boom like magic, and no hanging up or constant adjusting like jacks. Love it.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

JimsCAL said:


> My new-to-me Cal 33-2 came with a Dutchman system. FAR superior to any lazy jack system. Sail just drops onto the boom like magic, and no hanging up or constant adjusting like jacks. Love it.


Is that the system where vertical lines are threaded through grommets in the sail? Kind of like a suspension bridge cabling?

If so (even if not) what was the cost? Any downside or inconveniences?


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## dvuyxx (Jun 23, 2009)

With the Dutchman you take the main cover off when underway?


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## delite (Nov 2, 2009)

Sloop I believe you are correct. I assume these lines would attach to the topping lift and the boom. I wonder if the sail gets hung up if lines are not in perfect alignment? Would they hang up if you had an emergency and had to get the sail down quickly without pointing into the wind?


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## Michael K (Feb 27, 2006)

I've had a Dutchman system and it worked fairly well. It really does make a mainsail flake onto the boom well enough that little more needs doing than securing sail ties and putting the cover on. Getting the vertical lines through all the grommets on the sail was a PITA yet after that proper alignment was easily achieved. But the Stackpack or equivalent method appeals to me more as the cover is ready and waiting at all times and there aren't quite so many (intentional) holes in the sail. I've heard that full battens hang up on lazyjacks a bit too often when raising a mainsail. To remedy that problem some have anchored the top end of the jacks to the spreaders, creating a "V". I'll be trying this approach on a new rig next Spring.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

We changed our Harken lazy jacks this year for EZ jacks. They are far superior and very easy to deploy to drop the sail and hold it until its easy to tie it up. In additon the have a simple but effective way to release them and get them out of the way when you are not using them, so there is no way they are up when you raise the sail so no hangin g up the battens.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...4MzLBA&usg=AFQjCNEESYMstdWgE6JYj4Z39QAoZ0s67Q

Our EZ jacks are on blocks on the spreaders.

I would be concerned with them permanently in place as they would chafe the sails. Even though I beleive the Dutchman system may flake better, i dont like the idea of placing more holes in my sail.

As far as the stack pack, my friends who have tyhem have mixed reveiws. The positives are that it is very easy to zip up the final act of putting away your sail. Their negatives are increased windage and danagling fabric when underway, increased windage at anchor as it appears to be higher off the boom than a regular sail cover, and sometimes the top zipper hight is high to reach to zip up the top of the bag.

Dave


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## arisatx (Sep 2, 2004)

My rigger set us up with stowable lazy-jacks, kinda like the EZ Jacks. We went a bit "high tech" with 1/8" spectra to catch the mainsail - end for end spliced to double braid where it comes down from the spreaders and ties off to the mast cleats. And Antal low friction rings to build the cascading legs. Once the mainsail is dropped, we stow the lazy jacks under the reefing horns - so we can use a conventional mainsail cover, as well as no batten hangups next time we raise the mainsail.


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

SloopJonB said:


> Is that the system where vertical lines are threaded through grommets in the sail? Kind of like a suspension bridge cabling?
> 
> If so (even if not) what was the cost? Any downside or inconveniences?


Yes. Here's a link from Doyle Sailmakers on the system.

Doyle Sailmakers: Dutchman

Main disadvantage is that removing the main in the fall and installing in the spring is a bit more involved. The special topping lift wire with the monofilament lines must be removed and coiled. When I priced a new main last year, I got a quote of $800 to install a Dutchman system from North.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

I have the Mack sails version the "Mack Pack" and am happy with it.

I slacken the lazy jacks off and bungee them forward to the mast before raising the sail which means no battens get caught as you hoist. 

If you have a crew on the helm that keeps you dead into wind as you hoist you can avoid this.


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## cvsheppard (Jun 29, 2007)

I was under the impression that the lazy jack lines held the canvas cover upright and in place. If you slack the lines and pull them forword for raising the sail, what shape does the cover take? Does it fall away? Will the sails droop?


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## ggray (Jun 18, 2011)

Michael K said:


> I've heard that full battens hang up on lazyjacks a bit too often when raising a mainsail. To remedy that problem some have anchored the top end of the jacks to the spreaders, creating a "V". I'll be trying this approach on a new rig next Spring.


My lazyjacks are threaded thru holes a little ways out on the spreaders, but not sure it helps that muck; they can still snag the batten ends. When ordering my Mackpack, Mack cautioned me that under some conditions (off the wind) if the lazyjacks are attached too far out there may be an undesirable force on the spreader that it is not designed for.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

cvsheppard said:


> I was under the impression that the lazy jack lines held the canvas cover upright and in place. If you slack the lines and pull them forword for raising the sail, what shape does the cover take? Does it fall away? Will the sails droop?


Yes the sail does flop off the boom at the rear of the boom when I slack the lazyjacks but as I hoist the sail after doing this it is not a problem.

The cover only flaps if I undo the mast fixings.


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## dvuyxx (Jun 23, 2009)

It would imagine that with the stack-pack or Mack-pack bag one advantage is not having the sails stowed away so tightly allowing them to breathe more and lightening the creases.


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## JKCatalina310 (Nov 18, 2010)

My Catalina came factory with the Dutchman system. I like it better then lazy jack systems we have used in the past. 

It does not help with making a quick exit from the boat after a day of sailing. You still have to put on a traditional sail cover that can be slightly more complicated due to the monofilament lines. Also, taking the sails off and putting them back on is a little more complicated. However, that system can be made easier. We have a line that the monofilament is attached to that can be disconnected from the topping lift and be stored with the sail. So you don't have to re-thread the monofilament each year. 

One of the negatives I have heard about for the stack-pack/Mack-pack type of set up is that they can flap and be loud while under sail. Also, they limit the ability to have reef points for the mainsail.

If i were to pick, I would stay with the Dutchman.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

JKCatalina310 said:


> One of the negatives I have heard about for the stack-pack/Mack-pack type of set up is that they can flap and be loud while under sail. Also, they limit the ability to have reef points for the mainsail.


That system is only an enhancement of age old lazyjacks. How does it limit reefing?


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## j34035 (Nov 10, 2006)

I have had dutchman on 3 boats including the one I own now. I have had the Harken lazy jacks on one boat and took it off and did without rather than mess with them. I do like the dutchman, but replaced the monofilament with 1/16" vinyl SS wire. It does not stretch and make the system work a lot smoother. I can literally drop the sail and tie it off to the boom. Very little effort compared to fighting it when loose. My vote is Dutchman, though the parts are ridiculously expensive.
DD


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## jrd22 (Nov 14, 2000)

We had a stackpack style cover made and after a few modifications I really like it. There are a few negatives which I'll list first. The cover remains in place while sailing and on the windward side it bellows out a bit, never flaps or makes noise but obviously disrupts air flow somewhat. At the mast the cover attaches to the mast so you have to undo it to access the reefing hooks, not a big deal but makes it fractionally more difficult to hook the sail. On the plus side it's super easy to use, just zip it open to raise the main and when you drop it just pull in the reefing lines and zip it back up. Couldn't be simpler which means that we use the main more often than we used to for short sails and we also cover the main whenever we aren't using it (we used to leave the cover off while cruising unless we were anchored up somewhere for a few days). I wouldn't bother with one if I was going offshore, but for coastal cruising I wouldn't go back to a normal main cover.


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## knuterikt (Aug 7, 2006)

I have sailed with a lazy bag for the least 4 seasons - wont go back..
Used to have lazy jacks and sail cover, while cruising we now cover the sail when not in use.

These comments are based om my setup - I know there are lots of different designs around. 

It does not interfere with reefing lines or outhaul.
It can be stowed along the boom if I will improve air flow around the lower part of the sail
My main is loose footed and the lazy bag sits in the luff rope track on the boom. 
There is a batten on both sides to stiffen up the cover, I can also roll the cover onto the battens to stove it on the boom.

The lazy jacks are integrated into the system, there are 4 attachment points on each side made of strong webbing.

I have used SS rings to link the lines (less friction than rope/rope, cheap, noting to chafe the sail)

The bottom part of the cover is made of some mesh , except for aft part where it is open and only attached with webbing straps and slugs.

The cover are held together around the mast with webbing strops.

_In this photo the cover is rolled onto the batten and secured to the boom.
The lazy jacks are led forward and one of the SS rings are visible._ 









_Her you can see the hook used to hold the cover in place, notice that the hook opens downwards. You can also see the mesh in the bottom of the bag._









_This is the opposite side withe the eye and the bungee loop._ 









_At the end off the boom no mesh only two webbing straps with slugs holding it in place while giving room for reefing lines and outhaul._


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## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

I have a Mack Pack system from Mack Sails.

Its one of the best improvements we've made and their product is less expensive than competing similar products.

Well worth taking a serious look imho.



dvuyxx said:


> I must admit the one thing I dread is putting the mainsail away. I have lazyjacks with a conventional sail-tie and buckle-down cover setup. I have uttered many profanities at the end of the sailing day.
> 
> What's the scoop on the Stack-Pack or mainsail drop-bag (term?) setup? I've seen a few threads on the subject, but I'm still confused?
> 
> ...


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## nickmerc (Nov 2, 2008)

I made a set of stowable lazy jacks for my boat and the two charter boats I crewed on both had them. I have not the issue with lazy jacks that people have mentioned here. My boat has partial battens, one of the charter boats was a gaff rig, and one was marconi with full battens. I am just not sure why people have so many problems with them. In my opinion they are the biggest bang for your buck. I find them almost essential for single-handing.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Something I didn't mention in my previous post; I have done a fair bit of sailing on a boat with in-mast furling and on the boat with lazyjacks that I mentioned.

I'd take even the less than optimized lazyjacks any day over the in-mast furling. Easier to use, better sail shape and area, no jamming in the mast, WAY cheaper - it's no contest in every way.


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## tweitz (Apr 5, 2007)

I have the stack pack on my current boat, and had a Dutchman system on my prior boat. Both of them have pluses and minuses, but both are more convenient that a loose cover. The biggest negatives on the stack pack are that it takes a considerable amount of fiddling with the adustment of the lines each season until I get them optimized. It is also true that a little care needs to be taken to avoid the battens catching in the lazyjacks when raising sail, but that is not a big deal at all. The Dutchman was also a pretty good system, though that boat had an older sail and did not flake quite so smoothly as other seem to expect. Either system is pretty good.


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## wolfenzee (Jul 13, 2008)

I saw a lazy jack system where the lazy jacks went through blocks on the spreaders (flag halyard block was replaced with a double block to take lazy jack and flag halyard). this kept the lazy jacks from chafing the sail. The lazy jack lines went under the boom and back up the other side so when slacked off (with boom supported by topping lift or boom gallows) a regular sail cover could be installed. Cost = 2 double blocks (or just mount a single next to the single flag halyard block), and enough line to make the lazy jacks. My boat has a "jiffy reef" reefing system and I use the hooks on the boom when making up my lowered sail, a length of 1/4" line running back and forth the length of the boom then pulled tight....nice neat and cheap.


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## jimrafford (Jan 7, 2011)

We installed the dutchman system on our last boat when we had a new main built Took about a season to get the sail broken in but once that was done the system worked great. The main would fold itself in perfect flakes. The cover had to be modified to fit around the lines.
We have in boom furling on the current boat and I'd never go back. Fully battened main that goes up and down from the cockpit very quickly. Takes seconds to put the main away. Infinite reefing too. Down side is cost. Ours was $17k
Jim


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## wolfenzee (Jul 13, 2008)

I'm a poor sailor.....17K......that's what I paid for my boat. Marketing in this country is trying to get people to rely on "pre-made stuff" and frowns on ingenuity....I think I'll figure out something myself


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## wolfenzee (Jul 13, 2008)

For 17K I would expect to get a new mainsail, running and standing rigging a couple of headsails and maybe a storm try....and $10,000 change. My boat is 30', I just replaced the standing rigging with 300' of 1/4 316SS and am replacing halyards with 350' 3/8" and main sheet with 40-50' 7/16" low stretch Samson braid and have been pricing new sails so I have already figured the cost. I look around I can't afford to pay the first person I find to "have it done".


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## jimrafford (Jan 7, 2011)

Everything is relative. So people drive Hundai and others drive Mercedes.
Jim


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## wolfenzee (Jul 13, 2008)

some people do their own work and some people have been led to believe that they are incompetant and need to have a professional do everything for them...it's what keeps the marine industry alive, the concept that people have to have thing done for them by a professional and can't learn to do themselves....it's a trickle down of our whole economy.
It's the boaters that have more money than time and are willing to "have work done" that allows us poor boaters who are willing to do the work alive.
In the horse world there is a saying "Some horse owners muck their own stalls, and some have their stalls mucked for them"...same thing applies to boats. If you are too busy working to make money to pay the professionals to do the work for you you don't have the time to do it yourself.
I could not afford to have a fraction of the stuff I have done, done for me. One thing about learning to do for yourself when things do breakdown (and they will) you can fix them.


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## jimrafford (Jan 7, 2011)

What ever
Have a nice life
Jim


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

$17K for a main for a 40' is highway robbery, no matter how fancy it is.


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## jimrafford (Jan 7, 2011)

Main plus complete boom furling system. Price one out. That's what they cost.
Jim


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## jrd22 (Nov 14, 2000)

Offshore main for 40', boom furler, installation = 17K? Yeah, that's about what it would be, wish I had one.


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## downeast450 (Jan 16, 2008)

John,

I am going to "build" a stackpack fashioned after the kit Sailrite offers. Have you seen that one? I would like to get some feedback on the design before I start. It will be a wonderful upgrade to manage the main with simplicity.

Down


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## blutoyz (Oct 28, 2012)

downeast450 said:


> John,
> 
> I am going to "build" a stackpack fashioned after the kit Sailrite offers. Have you seen that one? I would like to get some feedback on the design before I start. It will be a wonderful upgrade to manage the main with simplicity.
> 
> Down


I would be interested in this review as well...I am one of those "poor sailors" that enjoys the "projects"


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## dvuyxx (Jun 23, 2009)

Did you ever see the stackpack that MMR (on Sailnet) posted a while back? Really nice self-made pack.

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-maintenance/92595-sailrite-sailbag-stackpack.html


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

I studied the forums and decided that the EZ-Jax system would be best for me. I like that the EZ-Jax retract out or the way, so that you can use them with an unmodified sailcover, and the battens cannot get caught when raising the sail. 

I placed an order, and never received it... They never charged my credit card either. After several conversations and email exchanges over two months with the owner of the business, in which he apologized for losing the order, I finally told him to cancel the order.

I studied the design, and built my own out of red and green (port & starboard) ¼" Sta-Set for less than ½ the cost of the EZ-Jax system. 

These are one of the best improvements that I have made to the boat!


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

> I studied the forums and decided that the EZ-Jax system would be best for me. I like that the EZ-Jax retract out or the way, so that you can use them with an unmodified sailcover, and the battens cannot get caught when raising the sail-eherlihy.


We love our EZ jacks and bought them a cuplke years ago. I added the lines so I can deploy them from the cockpit. Still have to go forward to pull them back,, but you can do that once anchored or at the dock.

If anythuing vreaks ( or when) I will fix myself. Glad you did it yourself. I will have questions eventually.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

The only furling main I would ever consider is the boom furler. You can still have the battens and it the sail can be dropped when necessary. Even though the mast furlers rarely jam, they dont appeal to me on many levels, sail trim and Murphy hides on my boat....with a mast furler I am giving him one more chance to come out and play.

JimRafford...I dont htiing Wolfee was insultimng you, he just has a different budget and he like doing things himself. I proably fall halfway in that category myself. The fact you have the boom furled main doesnt mean you are less that in sailing at all...or that you get someone to maintain everything on your boat. Everyone has differing priorituies.

dave


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## ccriders (Jul 8, 2006)

I made a stack pack style system for my boat and after a year converted it to a simple lazy jack system. The reason? I couldn't stand all that canvas along the foot of the main. Yes, it made the stowing of the main faster, but really messes with the loose footed main, and the control lines distort the set of the main. Last week I removed the Bimini, got back to nature so to speak. Sure made sailing easier and more fun.


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## wolfenzee (Jul 13, 2008)

William Atkin designed a lazy jack system for my boat 75 years ago. The rig has tweaked a little and I have my own ideas, but it's a base. I know alot of people who have done their own lazy jack system and subsequently know all the pros/cons and fixes.


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## wolfenzee (Jul 13, 2008)

chef2sail said:


> The only furling main I would ever consider is the boom furler. You can still have the battens and it the sail can be dropped when necessary. Even though the mast furlers rarely jam, they dont appeal to me on many levels, sail trim and Murphy hides on my boat....with a mast furler I am giving him one more chance to come out and play.
> 
> JimRafford...I dont htiing Wolfee was insultimng you, he just has a different budget and he like doing things himself. I proably fall halfway in that category myself. The fact you have the boom furled main doesnt mean you are less that in sailing at all...or that you get someone to maintain everything on your boat. Everyone has differing priorituies.
> 
> dave


Thanks, I try not to insult people, though I tend to be a bit antagonist (intentionally) sometimes by posting something contrary to someone elses belief that is also right...it's sort of fun when someone can't argue with something they disagree with, because it is right though a different point of view.


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

Wolf, Got pics? 

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk


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## wolfenzee (Jul 13, 2008)

I just added new pics to my profile


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## cookwithgas (Oct 8, 2007)

blutoyz said:


> I would be interested in this review as well...I am one of those "poor sailors" that enjoys the "projects"


I ordered a kit from Sailrite and built a sail pack for my boat last year. It has made single-handed sailing much more enjoyable. I laid everything out on the livingroom floor, set up my handy dandy Sailrite LZ1 sewing machine and starting cutting, folding and sewing. There was a lot of measuring too. It was a fun project and didn't take as long as I expected. Sailrite really supports their customers with videos, phone support and everything you need on their website.

I modified the plans a little to incorporate a harken lazyjack system I already had. I sewed some stainless eyelets in four locations to attached the lazyjacks. That way the pack is always held up and the sail is directed back into the pack when taking it down. Here are a few pics I took just after installing the finished product:


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