# Alcohol Fire!!



## RNGypsy03 (Oct 31, 2010)

Well, as we get ready to leave for the islands next spring, we are trying to use the original Galleymaid alcohol stove oven combo that is in this 1979 Endeavor Sloop. We had originally planned to "upgrade" to propane and read extensively about the pros and cons of it. My previous sailboat had propane, and Im sorry but I personally never felt safe....

I hiked the Appalachian trail this year and saw many people using the little soda can alcohol stoves. They worked great, were cheap to use, but my fears about them was their extinguishability...in other words how do you put them out?

The stove on the boat has been serviced, and Thanksgiving dinner complete with all the trimmings came out perfectly....so my inclination is to just put the $3500 earmarked for the propane upgrade, into something else....but I still haven't answered that one nagging question. What is the best way to put out an alcohol stove/oven/fire?

I've heard throw water on it...I've heard "dont" throw water on it...I'd really like to hear from someone who knows for sure...

Thanks,
RNGypsy03

Our dogs are still blogging from the boat. Follow along with Joey and Simon as they make their way to Costa Rica. Sailboat DogSailboat Dog


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

A fire blanket is a good choice—so is a CO2 fire extinguisher. A dry powder fire extinguisher would work but generally tends to leave a lot of nasty corrosive powdery mess behind, so isn't a great choice if you have other options. 

The reason water isn't recommended for alcohol fires is that alcohol burns pretty well down to about 40% by volume. If you can't douse the fire with a very heavy spray of water and get the dilution down low enough and cool the area enough, the burning alcohol can pour down into the bilge and continue to burn there, sight unseen.

This is why the MSDS for a lot of alcohols often SPECIFY HEAVY WATER SPRAY as a fire extinguishing technique. However, this is generally not something we have available on a sailboat.


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## ccriders (Jul 8, 2006)

Your greatest risk for a fire is when you are refilling the cannisters or otherwise handling the alcohol. While the stove is operating there is almost no risk unless the stove becomes upset. So refill in the cockpit and have a fire blanket or wet towel at the ready and your risks will be greatly reduced. 
I once fell asleep on the sofa after turning on an electric glass top stove to heat up a pot full of oil. I awakened to the popping and snapping of an electrical circuit shorting out (the vent hood) and saw the most flames I've ever seen inside a house. I grabbed up a table cloth, put it under the faucet and then put it over the flaming pot and grease puddles on the stove top. And it worked. Made a lot of smoke, which finally set off the fire alarm and ruined my wife's prized linen table cloth which had been hand woven for her by a friend. While the whole episode scared the be-jesus out of me that old training to use a fire blanket, then an extinguisher really paid off.
John


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## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

myself i use an old kenyon homestrand alcohol stove. refuel on deck and when ever im cooking or preheating the stove i have an old stovetop coffee pot full of water i place on top while preheating alcohol burns off usually has about 6 cups water in it to make tea later then after i finish cooking i put the pot on to boil and shut the stove off so in the event of a fire just as an incidental i have plenty of water to douse the fire with so far in all these years no fire but better safe than sorry. the only two times i have ever spilled alcohol is refueling about 2 ounces on deck and one time when filling preheat cup i spilled about 1/2 oz i just let it evap prior to lighting stove or wipe it up with napkin or small bit of tp. never saw a boat burned beyond repair from alcohol stove accident but have seen several go boom from leaky propane alcohol is safe as long as you pay attention to what you are doing like you should at all times on board.


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## CaptainForce (Jan 1, 2006)

Long ago we had an alcchol stove. The only fire we've ever had aboard was due to a guest that did not understand the preheat stage required to burn the vapor. This resulted in a flow of burning liquid alcohol that he promptly extinguished with the pot of beef stew that he had planned to heat. Messy, but effective with this volume. I think the risk of spreading the fire with water or this method depends on the volume of alcohol. Take care and joy, Aythya crew


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## wayne56 (Mar 28, 2009)

I would never again run a pressure alcohol stove. My last experience was trying to light one of these things after a period of sever weather during an overnight race; not realizing that the supply tube had fatigued and split and was pumping what i would guess would have been a litre or more of alcohol around my feet and into the bilge. 

Images of a blue flamed human torch launching up into the cockpit and over the side still pop into my imagination....not sure what might have happened to the sleeping crew if the puddle had caught fire.


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## skipmac (Oct 31, 2007)

I have owned and lived aboard boats with alcohol and propane. The only problem I ever had was with alcohol, almost caught the boat on fire when alcohol leaked onto the stove top, caught on fire and I tried to douse it with water. Too much alcohol and not enough water resulted in burning alcohol washing down under the stove and onto the sole. Took a fire extinguisher and a huge mess to put it out.

With just a little attention and proper set up propane can be perfectly safe.

I recall a comment from Donald Street I read years ago. Something to the effect that he would rather be blown up all at one time by a propane stove than tortured slowly to death by an alcohol stove. I heartily agree.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I'd also point out that one of the most common causes of boat fires, according to BoatUS's book on 20 years of insurance claims, Seaworthy, was pressurized alcohol stoves. The decline in the use of those stoves has seen a dramatic decline in the number of boat fires.

The non-pressurized, Origo-type stoves are fairly safe as long as you remember to let the cans cool down completely before trying to re-fill them. Carrying an extra can aboard is not a bad idea, so that if you run out in the middle of cooking a meal, you're not trying to re-fill a hot can.


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## SailingWebGuy (May 5, 2010)

The timing of this post is perfect...considering I was cleaning up and testing a pressurized alcohol stove just yesterday. I'm new to most things boating. Could someone explain the preheating procedure that was mentioned a few posts back? My stove is old (but never used). I read the instructions a few times and then gave it a whirl. The first time I tried to light it I ended up turning the knob a tossing matches in its direction (I'll admit I was a little scared). Since that didn't cause an explosion I braved up and held a match right to the burner. 

Unfortunately, while I was throwing all those matches, alcohol was running out of the burner and into the bottom of the stove top...it had filled up what looked like a little collection tray below the burner. When it lit, I had a foot high fire that burned for about 10 mins (I did all this outside the boat in my driveway and far away from anything else...cause I was scared).

The instructions didn't mention any preheating process to burn vapors. But I sure would like to know them.

After the big burn I experimented a little and got it lit safely a few times.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

My recommendation to you would be to dump the pressurized alcohol stove and either get an Origo, unpressurized setup or a propane one. 


SailingWebGuy said:


> The timing of this post is perfect...considering I was cleaning up and testing a pressurized alcohol stove just yesterday. I'm new to most things boating. Could someone explain the preheating procedure that was mentioned a few posts back? My stove is old (but never used). I read the instructions a few times and then gave it a whirl. The first time I tried to light it I ended up turning the knob a tossing matches in its direction (I'll admit I was a little scared). Since that didn't cause an explosion I braved up and held a match right to the burner.
> 
> Unfortunately, while I was throwing all those matches, alcohol was running out of the burner and into the bottom of the stove top...it had filled up what looked like a little collection tray below the burner. When it lit, I had a foot high fire that burned for about 10 mins (I did all this outside the boat in my driveway and far away from anything else...cause I was scared).
> 
> ...


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

SailingWebGuy said:


> The timing of this post is perfect...considering I was cleaning up and testing a pressurized alcohol stove just yesterday. I'm new to most things boating. Could someone explain the preheating procedure that was mentioned a few posts back?


Briefly; the procedure to light my friend's Alcohol stove is to;
add fuel to the tank
pressurize the tank by pumping the priming pump (10-30 times - depending on size of tank and pump)
open the burner valve to let out about 1 teaspoon of fuel. Enough to just complete a ring around the burner.
turn off burner
light the ring of alcohol in burner
wait for alcohol to burn off (you are pre-heating the burner)
immeadiately open burner and re-light
observe and adjust flame

There is often some swearing involved if the burner fails to light correctly. If so, you have to wait for the burner to cool off, and then start the whole process over from step 2.


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## mitchbrown (Jan 21, 2009)

I'm not sure if the OP's stove is pressurised of not and ive never used a pressurised alchol stove but I have used an origo non pressurised and i believe it is the safest way to go. I also agree with the OP that i dont feel good about having propane on the boat. So I just ordered a new origo 6000 which i will be installing on my (New to me ) boat and I will be getting rid of the propane bottles, and using the propane locker for trash. Its a prefect place to store the trash while away from the marina.

Mitch


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## genieskip (Jan 1, 2008)

One of my least fond memories from racing in the sixties and early seventies is that everyone had alcohol stoves, and some pretty big ones to feed 8 or 9 hungry crew. It was always a big procedure to light them and to fill them when empty, which seemed to be most of the time. I also remember a couple of interesting little fires. But the worst thing about them was the smell of alcohol when in heavy weather and battened down. You wanted to get food into the crew to keep seasickness at bay yet the stench from the alcohol stove had a tendency to aggravate a queasy stomach. 

No thanks, I'll keep my modern propane stove. Burns hot, (alcohol doesn't burn nearly as hot and takes much longer to heat your food) no smell, no preheating procedures. I admit that I am also concerned about an explosion so I carefully turn off the tank at the source as well as at the solenoid after use. If you are careful and fanatic about that then safety shouldn't be an issue.

It reminds of the story Bill Snaith, legendary skipper of the racer "Figaro", used to tell about the 1960 Transatlantic race to Sweden. The weather turned really cold at one point so one of the crew went below to start the coal heating stove while one of the other crew members was below making dinner. Coal is notoriously hard to start and the guy was huffing and puffing on the kindling to get it going. Meanwhile, the cook at the alcohol stove had gotten a semi serious flare up with the alcohol. So Bill looks down in the main cabin to see one guy furiously trying to start a fire to keep them warm while another is trying to put another fire out to keep them alive. 

I believe alcohol on a boat should be saved for internal consumption in small doses and at appropriate times.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Good practice for alcohol or other fires is an old fashioned box baking soda. In most commercial kitchens the cooks keep that at their stations for the occasional grease/ trash can fires.

Dave


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## SailingWebGuy (May 5, 2010)

Ok, I'm abandoning that stove I have. Sounds too risky. I sure was looking forward to making coffee on the boat today though..


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

The topic of marine stoves comes up often. This is a response that I wrote during an earlier discussion. 


Over my sailing career I have used marine stoves of almost all descriptions, but over the past 22 years I have exclusively used an Origo Alcohol stove on all of my own boats. I love these stoves, simple, safe, reliable, cheap to run. Despite the complaints from those who have never used one, Origo stoves are not any slower than your average marine propane stove. 

Alcohol has a bum reputation which dates back to the days when Alcohol Stoves were used pressurized burners such as the old Kenyon, Galleymaid, and Homestrand stoves. While I have cooked many meals on these old style alcohol stoves, they took some skill to operate, burned a lot of fuel and were limited in the amount of heat that they produced. I strongly recommend against them as they were not very safe or reliable, especially since proper parts are hard to come by these days and we used to have to replace many key parts every few years. 

<OOrigo stoves are very different from these old style alcohol stoves. the big difference is that Origos do not use pressurized alcohol burners. Instead they use burners, which catalyze the alcohol, allowing for more uniform and reliable combustion. They are also much easier to light. The Origo burner consists of a container that is filled with alcohol and which has a mesh at the opening. The amount of heat produced is controlled by a metal flap that partially covers the flame rather than throttling the fuel supply. <O

You often hear claims that alcohol is not as hot as propane. This is a bit of misinformation that comes from a basic misunderstanding. While Alcohol has a lower heat density (heat produced per pound), the actual amount of heat produced by any fuel on any specific stove is related to the design of the burner. An Origo burner produces 7,000 BTU Each Burner. A typical marine propane stove burner produces 6,000-6,500 BTU each burner. Three-burner propane stoves and asymmetrical burner 2-burner propane stoves will sometimes have a single larger burner which can produce as much as 11,000 per burner but most propane stoves do not produce this much heat and propane burners lose efficiency and output over time. 

<OThere are tricks to using the Origo like any other stove. I bought one of those small liquid stove fuel bottles with a pour spout at a camping supply place and that greatly simplifies the filling process and makes it bullet-proof reliable, even in rough weather. Also some burners come with a small indent in the screen but for some reason some don't. If I have a canister without the indent, I carefully push the screen down so that the indent is about a 1/4" deep and the size of a quarter and that also simplifies fueling. I also find that one of those extended length butane lighters made for barbeques makes lighting easier. I keep hearing people claim that Alcohol has an invisible flame but in the Origo the flame is the same color blue as a propane stove.

<OThe canisters should only be refueled once they are cool. My experience with the Origo burner canisters are that they are cool to the touch within minutes so refueling is not a big deal, and they will burn for 4 or so hours on a complete refill. I use about between a half and 3/4 gallon of alcohol a year in pretty heavy weekend usage (maybe 10 weekend a year) and a longer cruise (typically a week to 12 days).

<OWhen I was researching the decision about what stove fuel to go with and which stove to buy, I liked the sound of diesel stoves, which I thought meant only carrying one kind of fuel on board. As a I researched this further I found that most diesel, like most kerosene stoves still ended up needing alcohol as a pre-heater and that pressure alcohol type flare-ups were still possible, only now it was with a fuel that was much harder to extinguish. The neatest stove that I encountered was a diesel stove in which the combustion took place in a sealed chamber and which was ignited by a piezoelectric system. This stove also functioned as a water heater and offered options which could be set up to heat the interior of the boat in winter. 

<OMy current boat came with a propane stove on it that I switched to an Origo. I ended up removing the propane stove in part because it was cheaper to buy and install an Origo stove and oven than to upgrade my boats propane system to modern standards, but mostly because I do not trust Propane. I know that some people love their propane and so will bad mouth Alcohol, but having sailed with both I would not be so quick to say, "Propane is good, Alcohol is evil". 

In my life time, virtually every sailboat explosion or major fire except one, that I have direct knowledge of have been boats with propane stoves and diesel engines. Over and over again I hear people who would not think of having a gasoline engine for fear of explosion, but who readily advocate propane stoves, which requires all of the same safety precautions of a gasoline engine (and them some) but which rarely get the same kind of attention to such important saftey measures as having and using bilge blowers, and explosion proof alternators, switches and other electrical components.

<OFor me, this is a no brainer. In my sailing career I have spent too many sleepless nights nervously trying to track down the source of very obvious smelling propane leak.

<ORespectfully,<O</O
Jeff<O</O


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## mitchbrown (Jan 21, 2009)

Jeff 

as i mentioned before im installing an origo 6000 on my boat. I agree with everything you said in your post. I'm very excited to try out the oven on this stove. Do you have any advice for me?

Mitch


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I must say that haven't used the oven all that much.I am a vegetarian and so beyond some occasional baking (mostly for curiousity), or reheating caseroles I made at home, I just have not used it all that much and I haven't needed it in a while. I did make a lasagne once and that wasn't too bad in terms of the over itself, but frankly trying to make a lasagna from scratch in a small galley was a bit of a tactical error. 

My recollection is that the oven was a little harder to light than the burners and took a while to pre-heat as I recall, but I can't say it was any worse than any other marine stove. 

Jeff


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Gypsy, I can understand "I don't want to use that" and guessing that you are an RN, I suspect you know what a burn ward is like and that's one reason you have a healthy fear of flames.

But personally...I'd rather eat cold food than use an alcohol stove of any kind. I know, propane and butane sometimes goes BOOM and that's a bad thing that blows up homes and businesses all over the world every year. The thing it, the stuff COOKS very well. Alcohol is by comparison a cold wet flame. It produces lots of moisture in the combustion process, and sooner or later your boat becomes a rain forest from that. It produces the lowest temperature flames, so it takes the longest to cook things. And the nearly invisible flame is the damngerous part, that makes it responsible for more boat fires than ANY other cooking fuel.
I don't like it, I don't trust it, and the way it leaks out past seals is almost as treacherous as a gas leak--except gas usually has enough odorant in it to be smelled. I'd rather use the $20 Korean BBQ Butane single-burner stoves, and I have used them on many boats. They work very nicely and can be kept stowed in a small closed (sealed) place or deck locker. If they rust in five years, hey, for $20 you throw it out and buy a new one.
I'd urge you to consider propane, professionally plumbed, with proper safety fittings and two "sniffers" since sniffers eventually always fail. But alcohol...that's something you probably will really change your mind about, once you read up on all the problems it has caused.

SD-
"SPECIFY HEAVY WATER SPRAY" There are "foam" fire extinguishers that should be good for this, I've seen them reasonably priced in the big box stores although a quick check online didn't find them tonight,just gobs of dry powder and the new "Tundra" extinguishers from First Alert. Those seem like a good alternative for a galley extinguisher, although they carry no ratings at all which makes me wonder about them. Memo, ask friend at FD about whether he's ever met one.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

hellosailor said:


> Gypsy, I can understand "I don't want to use that" and guessing that you are an RN, I suspect you know what a burn ward is like and that's one reason you have a healthy fear of flames.
> 
> But personally...I'd rather eat cold food than use an alcohol stove of any kind. I know, propane and butane sometimes goes BOOM and that's a bad thing that blows up homes and businesses all over the world every year. The thing it, the stuff COOKS very well. Alcohol is by comparison a cold wet flame. It produces lots of moisture in the combustion process, and sooner or later your boat becomes a rain forest from that. It produces the lowest temperature flames, so it takes the longest to cook things. And the nearly invisible flame is the damngerous part, that makes it responsible for more boat fires than ANY other cooking fuel.
> I don't like it, I don't trust it, and the way it leaks out past seals is almost as treacherous as a gas leak--except gas usually has enough odorant in it to be smelled. I'd rather use the $20 Korean BBQ Butane single-burner stoves, and I have used them on many boats. They work very nicely and can be kept stowed in a small closed (sealed) place or deck locker. If they rust in five years, hey, for $20 you throw it out and buy a new one.
> I'd urge you to consider propane, professionally plumbed, with proper safety fittings and two "sniffers" since sniffers eventually always fail. But alcohol...that's something you probably will really change your mind about, once you read up on all the problems it has caused.


Completely agree with you on this...



> SD-
> "SPECIFY HEAVY WATER SPRAY" There are "foam" fire extinguishers that should be good for this, I've seen them reasonably priced in the big box stores although a quick check online didn't find them tonight,just gobs of dry powder and the new "Tundra" extinguishers from First Alert. Those seem like a good alternative for a galley extinguisher, although they carry no ratings at all which makes me wonder about them. Memo, ask friend at FD about whether he's ever met one.


I know about the foam fire extinguishers, but have yet to see one, marine-approved or not available at a reasonable price... most of the small fire extinguishers that are suitable for carrying on a small sailboat are dry powder ones. I've seen a couple of CO2 ones, but they're generally far bulkier for the same fire stopping power.

The foam ones I have seen are very pricey, about $200-215 for a small one:


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

hellosailor said:


> Alcohol is by comparison a cold wet flame. It produces lots of moisture in the combustion process, and sooner or later your boat becomes a rain forest from that. It produces the lowest temperature flames, so it takes the longest to cook things.


This is excellent example of incorrect misinformation that just gets repeated again and again. A little research on adiabatic flame temperature and some knowledge of combustion analysis would quickly reveal that propane and ethanol have about the same flame temperature - approx 3600 F for propane and approx 3525 F for ethanol. And both produce about the same amount of water vapor when burned. Hydrogen (which produces the most water vapor of any fuel) has an adiabatic flame temperature of over 4000 F.


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## souljour2000 (Jul 8, 2008)

All I know is this debate seem to be" heating up" quite well and I am subscribing to the thread as I have to make a decision someday soon on what to do with the old copper alcohol stove thats on my old 1971 Seafarer...


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## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

anyone on the west coast removing their pressure alcohol stove im looking for parts to keep mine running. im in the puget sound area. pm me and i will get back to you.


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

I have a single burner Origo on my boat, and a Origo "HeatPal" as an additional burner. If never had any trouble with them. If they are slower cooking than propane stoves (a debatable point), it's not enough of a difference to notice. 

The only issue at all is that if I let the burner run completely out of alcohol there seems to be a very faint formaldehyde smell. I'm particularly sensitive to such odors, having work with a lot of formaldehyde as a college student. But, for most people it's probably not even noticeable, and it goes away when one refills and uses the stove. You might also note that, unlike propane, the flash point of ethanol is high enough (about 13C) that the stove often won't light with just a spark, you need to apply an actual flame directly to the working part of the burner. I realized this when I used a little butane "bbq lighter" that was just about out of gas to light the stove; in the summer it lit the stove fine with just a couple of sparks, but when the weather turned cooler the spark from the lighter wouldn't get the stove going (I had to resort to an old-fashioned match).


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## delan (May 2, 2009)

I use a Compressed Natural Gas or CNG system, unlike propane, it's lighter than air, so in the event of a leak, it dissipates, instead of laying in the bilge like propane. 
I forget the make, but I have a three burner , gimballed oven that's made for it.

I couldn't refill in the bahamas, but a bottle lasts me a couple of months, so I take a full one with me.


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## sck5 (Aug 20, 2007)

I have an Origo on the boat and propane at home. If it takes longer to heat water for coffee on the boat then it cant be very much because I cant tell the difference. I have heard many many people comment on how slow alcohol is to cook things but I dont think a single one of those people actually have an Origo stove.

I have used the oven and the only "trick" is to make sure there is a thermometer in the oven that works. Any grocery store will sell you one if you dont have one.

Finally, DONT buy alcohol at West Marine or any other chandler. You can get denatured alcohol for literally half the price at the paint department of any hardware store. Home Depot is where I usually get mine.


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## donradclife (May 19, 2007)

Just in case you were thinking of cruising, here is a quote from the Cruising Guide to Belize and Mexico's Caribbean coast, by Freya Rauscher:

"Propane is inexpensive and plentiful throughout Belize, Mexico, and Quatemala"...

"Alcohol is extremely difficult to locate and is expensive. If you have an alcohol stove on board, you better stock up with plenty of fuel before you leave the USA."


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Jims-
Ignoring the fact that ethanol is (by your numbers) only some 98% as hot as propane...that would still make it "colder". But stove fuel isn't pure ethanol, it is usually or commonly "denatured alcohol" which may be ethanol with methanol (the denaturing agent), methyl ethyl ketone, acetone, water, and other chemicals. Pure ethanol? You're going to pay "distilled booze" taxes on that, and buy it at the liquor store, aren't you?

You're sure none of that affects the temperature and moisture content, huh?

I think it has earned the rep of being the coldest and wettest fuel out there, and the rest is just a matter of how much colder and wetter it has to be to be noticed in real life. I've never known a propane flame to create the condensate problems that alcohol has (not "can" but "has" as in I've been there and not enjoyed it) and never known propane to cook as slowly as alcohol. 

I'd also suspect the "heat of combustion", i.e. btu's produced per poiund of fuel burned, has a role to play in this. Propane produces abot 22,000 btu's per pound, gasoline about 20-21,000, and alcohol? About 9-11,000, depending on type. Pound for pound, propane is producing twice as many btu's and that might also allow for a much hotter burner (more btu's in less space?) even if there only is a 2% difference in the flame temperature.

I don't know the combustion science, I do know which fuel does a better job boiling the water for me.


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

"Heat of combustion" is properly measured on a molar basis; essentially, the amount of energy released per molecule. While this is of interest to chemists (and the stuff of nightmares for freshman chemistry students), it doesn't directly bear on the current discussion. What we are interested in is the "energy density" of a fuel. This can either be measured in energy per mass or energy per volume, the latter being the more commonly used in such an application as ours. Here, the pertinent values are 25.2 megajoules per liter for propane and 24.0 megajoules per liter for ethanol, about a 5% difference. The trace stuff in denatured ethanol will lower its energy density a bit, but not enough to make a big difference.


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## baboon (Aug 7, 2008)

Discussions about fuel for heating and cooking seem to generate more conflict than most other topics. I get the impression lots of people weigh in without a lot of real experience. I have cooked with propane, presurized alcohol and non-pressurized alcohol, all on the same boat. They all cook at about the same rate, all have flame that can be hard to see, and all generate about the same amount of moisture. There might be scientific differences in these areas, but from a hands on standpoint it all seems about the same.

Of the above options I have decided the origo style is the best for me. It has proven to be simple, safe, easy to light, and the fuel has been easy to find and store. The pressurized cooktop was scary, flame ups could occur even if I thought I did everything correctly. The storage, plumbing and need for extra layers of safety (snifers, leak checks, solenoids, vented lockers) that come with a propane system was not worth it, particularly on a small boat like mine (30 ft).


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

hellosailor said:


> Jims-
> 
> I think it has earned the rep of being the coldest and wettest fuel out there, and the rest is just a matter of how much colder and wetter it has to be to be noticed in real life. I've never known a propane flame to create the condensate problems that alcohol has (not "can" but "has" as in I've been there and not enjoyed it) and never known propane to cook as slowly as alcohol.
> 
> I'd also suspect the "heat of combustion", i.e. btu's produced per poiund of fuel burned, has a role to play in this. Propane produces abot 22,000 btu's per pound, gasoline about 20-21,000, and alcohol? About 9-11,000, depending on type. Pound for pound, propane is producing twice as many btu's and that might also allow for a much hotter burner (more btu's in less space?) even if there only is a 2% difference in the flame temperature.


If you think that Alcohol has earned its rep as being the coldest wettest fuel out there, you obviously have not removed a propane stove from your boat and replaced it with a modern alcohol stove as I have. I can assure you that having done this, that the key to comparing fuels is not the heat per pound, but the heat per burner and frankly a modern alcohol burner puts out as much heat as a typical marine propane burner (Origo burner=7,000 BTU per Burner vs typical marine propane burner @ 6,000-6,500 BTU per burner). If you have never known propane to heat slower than alcohol then you obviously have not experimented (as I have) with boiling equal quantities of water on adjacent boats, one with a modern alcohol stove and one with a propane stove. 

Moisture production (and smell issues) was a problem with older pressure style alcohol stoves which burned less efficiently and at lower temperatures than modern catalyzed alchol burners. It is not an issue with modern alchol stoves. In back to back experiments the catalyzed alcohol stoves clearly seem to produce less condensation than the propane stove that I removed. 

The heat per pound thing is a total red herring unless it deeply concerns you that you are carrying 40 pounds of alcohol vs 25 pounds of propane, and if the issue really is weight to you, the combined weight of propane tanks, valves, regulators, emergency cut offs, piping, sniffers and and the sealed compartment should more than offset the slight weight penalty of alcohol in its plastic container. 

In fact the one thing that I agree with in your post is where you say, you _" don't know the combustion science"_. Here, I have to say that you are 100% correct.  

Semi-respectfully,
Jeff


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

Jeff_H said:


> In fact the one thing that I agree with in your post is where you say, you _" don't know the combustion science"_. Here, I have to say that you are 100% correct.
> 
> Semi-respectfully,
> Jeff


Now, now. Let's not pick on the thermodynamically challenged.


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

BTW, I just did a quick calculation of the amount of water produced by propane and ethanol. Burning ethanol does produce about 15% (about 30g/hour/burner) more water than burning the same volume of propane. Not a big enough difference to get excited about ... and probably far less than the amount of steam produced by the water in ones cooking pots.


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## L124C (Oct 4, 2007)

*Don't fear alcohol stoves, respect them.*

Alcohol stoves have been covered extensively in this forum.  I have participated in several threads on the subject and did one specifically on priming. Search the forum for them if interested. I have a pressurized alcohol stove and love it. As with any flammable material on a boat, you have to be careful and use your head. However, I have found almost all the horror stories regarding alcohol stoves to be without merit, unless someone wasn't using their head. For example; If a "liter or more" of fuel leaked out of a cracked supply line while someone was trying to operate a stove and they didn't realize it until they were standing in a puddle of alcohol, SOMEBODY wasn't paying attention, or may have already had too much alcohol of another type (even then, it's hard to believe)! They probably should have heard the leak, and CERTAINLY should have smelled it. If you over prime a stove with even a quarter cup of fuel (FAR too much BTW!) it should be obvious. Liquid alcohol has a pungent odor, and if you see anything resembling a puddle, you've used too much fuel. When you realize you screwed up, the solution is easy. DON'T LIGHT IT! Soak it up, let whats left evaporate (only takes a minute), start again, and pay attention this time. No offense to anyone, but I think pressurized alcohol stoves have a undeserved bad rap (which I totally bought into before I happened to buy a boat with one). Anyway, search the forum. Plenty of info available.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Hey L. or Mr. 124C if you prefer,

I saw your post and it piqued my interest. When I used to use Homestrand and Kenyon pressure alcohol stoves, there were parts that periodically needed to be replaced. It seems to me that we had a rebuild kit and every couple years would replace some gaskets, a needle valve and valve seat if I remember right. Of course at some point I could not find sources for these replacement parts and so stopped using these stoves. (I have a perfectly good two burner in my garage that I have probably not used in twenty-years)

Have you had to replace burner parts, and if so, where do you get them? 

Regards,
Jeff


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## L124C (Oct 4, 2007)

Jeff_H said:


> Hey L. or Mr. 124C if you prefer,
> 
> I saw your post and it piqued my interest.
> Have you had to replace burner parts, and if so, where do you get them?
> ...


It's Mr. L124C to you...

My stove is a Hillerange/Seaward, and the last pages of this thread say it all.
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-maintenance/4139-hillerange-alcohol-stove-fittings.html
A & H might be able to help.
Best of luck!
Bill


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

These guys have parts and do rebuilds of Kenyon/Homestrand stoves:

HOMESTRAND STOVE PARTS & REFURBISHED STOVES

I would still recommend getting an Origo however.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

That is very cool. Who knew that someone actually stocked parts for these old stoves? 

I agree with you and also still recommend an Origo as well, but I thought it might be fun to refurbish the old Homestrand to use as a back up when the power goes out at the house. 

Jeff


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

Jeff_H said:


> I agree with you and also still recommend an Origo as well, but I thought it might be fun to refurbish the old Homestrand to use as a back up when the power goes out at the house.
> 
> Jeff


I have the Kenyon I pulled out of my previous boat in my basement for exactly that reason. It was working fine, but I got a great deal on an Origo at the local WM (<$150) when they were closing them out. Best upgrade I ever made.


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## scottyt (Jul 19, 2008)

not adding to the fuel of the fight 

i have an old non pressure stove on my boat, factory 1983. i have used it to heat oil in a wok to deep fry, so it does get hot enough.

screw worring about the fire worry about the 400 degree oil ( or what ever your cooking ) splashing on you. fires can be put out, a bad burn will kill you much more slowly if you cant get major medical care


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