# Best used racer/cruiser from the 1980's?



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Hello-

My husband and I are interested in replacing our much loved 1970 35' C&C MkI with a slightly more spacious racer/cruiser (or cruiser/racer!) from the 1980's. 

We are hoping to find a newer 36-38' boat that was both comfortable for weekend and week-long cruising with friends and family, as well as respectable for Weds. night racing and the occasional weekend regatta. Our price range seems to put us in boats from the late 70's-mid 80's.

We are considering Catalina 38's, Beneteau First 38's or Beneteau First 37.5's, or Pearson 36's. We only have experience with our classic C&C, so any information or advice on these boats or any suggestions for other boats would be appreciated! 

My husband is very concerned about build-quality, speed, and aesthetics (all for a decent price!).

Thanks!
Karen


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I really like the Beneteau First series. If you like your C&C than it is a logical step up in my mind. The Catalina and Pearson trend a bit more towards cruising.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Karen, don't forget the C&C Landfall series. Built by the same folks with the goal of fast passagemaking instead of outright racing, and generally well thought of.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*thanks*

Thanks, hellosailor, we will add that to our list. We love our 1970 C&C which is rock solid and a wonderful boat (our first sailboat; we've had her for 5 years). We are just looking for something slightly larger with a few more comforts below, that is still a capable club racer...


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

You might want to take a look at the newer C&Cs in a similar size range, for example the late 80's 35 and 37. Even the early 80's 36s might seem significantly roomier than your (classic) vintage 35. Assuming your price range is in the 75-100K range, some of these models may well fit. Even an older C&C 40 might catch your fancy.
Seeing as how pleased you have been with the current boat, there's a lot of carryover in the C&C line that you may appreciate down the road.
I like the Bene 37.5 alot, it has an added advantage of short J measurement, larger mainsail that eases headsail handling and spinnaker work, but see very few racing in our area - not sure why but assumed they may not sail to their ratings.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Thanks faster. We really like the mid-80's Beneteau First 37.5's, too- these are at the top of our price range (would like to keep it under $65k or so). We definitely will look at some early to mid-80's C&C's to compare with our boat!


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## Newport41 (Jun 30, 2006)

I was close to buying a C&C Landfall 38. The Landfall 35 is also very well thought out. The Cherubini designed Hunter 37 cutter is a great boat as well. I usually don;t think too much of Hunters but Cherubini has been a ledgendary designer. The other boat around that size that I've always liked is the Islander 36. Fast, well built, and pretty. As for the boat's you were already looking at, the First 38 is like the Hunter cutter. It's stands out from the rest of it's line up. And it's the quickest of the bunch.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

The search continues....We've looked at one Beneteau 38 that we liked, but that needed considerable work. We're now looking at a Jeanneau Sun Shine Regatta. Any opinions out there on this boat? We also looked at an Elite Yacht 364, but had considerable difficulty finding information about Elite Yachts on the web. Any suggestions?


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Karen,

I do not have a sunshine, but an 85 Arcadia that is 30' long. I found an original owner, well kept up etc. The only problem I have had, along with other Jeanneau owners of 20'ish yr old boats, is the headliner foam is rotting, and is falling off the hull or cabin top. I am going to be able to fix my rig for about $750'ish myself, but got quotes in the $6-8K range for someone else. Look at this potential problem on the Jeanneau, and I have heard about the same problem with Benateaus in the same vintage, altho at this time, there were seperate companies, not under the same "Group Benateau" affilitation as today.

You can tell if it will be a racer version by where the mainsail track is at. If on the cabin, it will be a older SO version if you will, the main sail track is in the cockpit, it will be more setup as a racer, with typically a deeper keep, less wt in the keel/displacement etc. If you go to www.jeanneau-owners.com, There is a link to ALL Jeanneau models general discriptions etc.

I would also add Tarten to your list. Altho a bit more cruiser-racer than Racer-cruiser if you ask me! Islander, Cal's and Ericksons would also make good rigs too.

Marty


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Five years ago plus, I went through almost the same search as you. If you are actually looking for racer- cruisers (rather than a cruiser-racer), then I would suggest that you might want to consider adding the following to your list:

Beneteau 38s5: Luxuious interior at the price of performance.

Cal 40's: More cruiser than racer

Dehler 38: Well built fractionally rigged with quite a bit of Euro-panache.

Express 37: Great all around boats. 

Fabola Diva 39: Good fast boat, that should be very easy to handle short-handed. 

Farr 37: These were more racers than cruisers but in good shape they offer reasonably good performance and a reasonably nice interior (with optional vee berth) I thought that the rig looked a little vulnerable and was put off by the IOR hull form but you find these boats in nice chape pretty cheaply. They were also a little deeper than I wanted to go. 

Farr 38 (Farr 11.6): Good all around boats. A little long in the tooth as an out and out race boat, but great short-handed performance cruiser. I ended up buying one in my seach and have been very impressed with the boat in a wide range of conditions. At the club racing level we have had 7 first, 2 seconds and a third the last season I raced her, and I have won all of the single-handed races that I have done with her. 

Frers F3 (36): Nice design crudely executed by Hinterhoeller. 

Frers 38: Nice design crudely executed by Carroll Marine. 

Hood 38 (built by Little Harbor, Bristol and Wauqiez): these are good all round boats. They excell in a breeze or where shoal draft is an asset. Not so great in light air and are not the easiest boats to sail short-handed. 

Hughes 38/Hinckley 38: These S&S designed early 1970's era were good all around boats for their day. Hughes built the hull and decks for both. Each built their own interiors. 

J-39: Somewhat spartan but nice boats. 

Oyster 37: I looked at one here on the Chesapeake. It was a pretty nice boat but it didn't ring my chimes. 

Ranger One Ton: I raced these boats back in the 1970's. They were a little squirely but some of these boats have been adapted as distance cruisers. They are similar in concept to the S&S designed Catalina 38 but seemed to be better built and slightly better sailing boats. 

Sigma 38: I thought that these were neat boats that made it onto my short list. 

Sweden 36: Very classy boat but not that fast.

Tartan Soverel 39: Pretty well built but limited by their IOR origins. 

Tripp 37 (Holby 37): Really well built, really neat boats. The full race versions has a bit of a spindley rig. 

X119: Fast and fun


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Thanks for all of the suggestions! We'll add some of those to our list. Our price range may limit us, as we do not want to spend more than $65K. We looked at a Frers 36 this weekend- we loved the deck layout and look of the boat, but felt as though the interior was somewhat spartan (similar to our current C&C). 

The boat definitely will have to have style (my husband is an industrial designer, and well, as for me, I just like a boat that looks good!  ) as well as substance (he's very particular about construction & sailing qualities and he wants to win a few races... I just want more SPACE, a refrigerator, hot/cold water, and privacy...the usual list of upgrades). We need a boat that will work in Hingham Bay, Mass which can be a tricky place to sail- we'd like to keep the draft below 7'. 

We'll keep looking and will let you know what we end up with!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*nice racer cruiser*

the 39 foot landfall is a boat to consider plenty of room good construction and just a a little heft great cabin and ventilation.


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## CBinRI (May 17, 2004)

Why not a bigger C&C? I like the Pearson 36, although it may not sail as well as your C&C. I am also a fan of the Beneteau First 42, although maybe that's a little big for you.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Thanks- we are going to look at some larger C&C's....My concern is that the cabin layout may be similar to our current our boat (open layout). We entertain family and friends on the boat every weekend in the summer and privacy (separate cabins) would be nice if we are going to make the leap and get a bigger boat. The early 80's Catalina 38's also have an open layout, but my husband is so crazy about the design of these boats, that they are staying on our list for now.

The C&C Landfall series might be of interest but it seems much more "cruiser" than "racer" which is highly concerning to my husband. He has the need for speed.  I have the need to cruise!

We love the look of the Benteau 42's, but I'm not sure what the draft is on these boats....We like the Beneteau 38's which I think are the next step below. We haven't found one in great shape, yet, though.


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## CBinRI (May 17, 2004)

The Beneteau First 42 is a deep-drafted boat. If memory serves, 7'11"? Not for shallow waters.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

... and privacy (separate cabins)..
One comment - consider very carefully three cabins in a size under the mid-40s, as fitting thre cabins in may require tradeoffs that reduce the overall livability. I owned a mid-80s Beneteau First 30E with a tri-cabin layout. It looked great on first impressions down bleow, but was totally un-livable. Although it "slept seven", there was no bunk big enough for a couple, or someone over 5'9", everything was cramped and there was no ventalation. Our previous boat was a '77 C&C 30, which while more spartan in appearance, was much more comfortable and liveable for a week or two. We had the C&C for six years, the Beneteau for one...


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## paulmcquillan (Jan 4, 2002)

I also like the C&C Landfall 38, and like your husband want the speed. My wife wants the livable interior.

We kept the Catalina 38, Landfall 38 on our final list until the Newport 41 caught our eye -- and won our hearts. The N41 also a C&C design


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## pigslo (Nov 22, 2004)

Ted Brewer designed Morgan 38 comes to mind.

pigslo


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

*Farr 38*

This excerpt taken from a Sailing New Zealand newsletter published in 2004:

"The NSW Coroner has recently completed his inquest into the deaths of two (of the six) members of the crew of the yacht Rising Farrster, a Farr 38 owned by a UK based organisation, and built in 1993.

The Coroner found that both deaths occurred as a result of drowning when the keel of the yacht separated from the hull causing the vessel to capsize and recommended that a précis of his summing up, findings and recommendations be distributed to owners of light displacement yachts fitted with fin keels built subject to pre 1994 ABS approval. His Worship made this recommendation so that appropriate decisions can be made by owners as to checking and/or modification of yachts."

Mmmmmm. . . . .


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Like most Farr 38 owners I am quite familiar with this case. _"Rising Farrster"_, the boat in question in the NSW Coronors report was not actually a production Farr 38. She was one of a number of illegally produced boats that had been built on a boot legged mould after Australian production of the legally licensed Farr 38's had ceased production. She was built by a company in Australia that had pulled a mould off an existing boat and began producing what they called a Farr 38 IMS. These boats were built extremely differently than the actual Farr Yacht Design engineered Farr 38's. The modifications from the original design were not designed by Farr Yacht Design and I understand that the company in question ceased production after being advised that the did not have the rights to produce the boat and that the modifications were questionable. 

To explain further, the stock Farr 38's have a deep sump and deep closely spaced transverse keel frames (floors) that are almost 14" deep. The bottom of the sump is made up of alternating layers of laminate from either side of the hull. The transverse frames are hand laminated in place, and the laminate from the transverse frames turns down into the sump to form the top most laminations in the bottom of the sump. The transverse frames cross a series of closely spaced laminated in place longitudinal stringers. 

The drawings on a Farr 38 calls for 36 mm of glass at the overlap of the glass at bottom of the sump (nearly 1 1/2" of glass in the sump). The keel bolts pass through this nearly 1 1/2" of glass and then through a roughly 3"-4" by roughly 5-6" long, 11 mm (5/16") SS plate that is shaped like the bottom of the sump. Stock Farr 38's have a simple fin and do not have bulb keels.

The counterfeit Farr 38's used a molded force grid that had transverse frames that were spaced wider than on the Farr engineered Farr 38's and only a single longitudinal stringer. The transverse fames in the force grid were less than 5" deep. The force grid was molded separately from the hulls and were then glued in. 

According to the detailed New South Wales Coroner report, as built, the glass thickness on "_Rising Farrister"_ at the centerline was found to be between 5.5 and 6.5 mm. (This is actually half the thickness of the 13 mm topsides thickness specified on a stock Farr 38, and 1/8th the specified thickness of the sump bottom). It is also way less than the 27 mm required by the 1994 ABS standards. 

Instead of the heavy SS backing plates used on real Farr 38's, the keel bolts on _"Rising Farrister"_ went through simple fender washers. 

Making matters worse, _"Rising Farrister"_ had a bulb keel similar to a Mumm 36 Keel. This keel was substantially deeper than the Farr 38 keel, slightly heavier and concentrated the bulk of the weight of the keel at the bottom of the keel. This combination greatly increased the stress on the keel bolts. 

Regrettably, this combination of changes produced a boat that was destined to fail, and sadly several lives were lost when it did. 

In my pre-purchase research on the I traded email with owners, several which had 10's of thousands of offshore miles on their boats and reported that they have held up very well. I spoke to a fellow who single handed his in from South Africa and he reported that the first 10 days he sailed in winds between 30 and 50 knots, recording at one point a GPS reading of 16 knots. At least as recently as 4 years ago, 20 year old Farr 38's were still racing as a one-design class in the trans-Atlantic Cape Town to Rio Race. The actual Farr 38's are pretty tough boats.

On the other hand, I would never say that these are ideal offshore cruising boats. Instead, based on my experience having owned one, I would suggest that they are excellent performance cruisers, and club racers that are easy to single-hand and which can be taken offshore short-handed without problem and I think that was the original question in this thread. 

Respectfully,
Jeff


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