# Where can you go with 6'5" draft?



## BillMoran (Oct 1, 2016)

I'm looking at buying a 38' C&C with 6'5" draft.

Quick outlay of my "plan" (in quotes because who knows if it will change). I will berth the boat in Erie, PA initially, and probably sail it around the great lakes for 2 seasons. The plan then is to put it on the ocean in FL, move aboard full time, and sail the coast and the keys there for maybe a season. Then start hopping longer distances: the Bahamas, then into the Carribean. The eventual goal is to head west across the Pacific. Of course, with a multi-year plan like this, lots can change; but that's the plan as it stands now.

My concern is with the draft. Obviously the benefits of reduced leeway and the ability to point upwind are nice; but I'm concerned that it's deep enough to cause frustration while island hopping and exploring (i.e. reducing the available options for anchorages and even routes between destinations in some cases, like the FL keys)

Has anyone done a lot of island hopping on a boat with this kind of draft that can comment on whether my concerns are valid or just me worrying too much? Obviously, a dinghy with a good motor can overcome some of the limitations of the boat itself ... but is there a line somewhere? When is the draft just too deep that it makes things too difficult?


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Deep draft gives you a better safety margin out in the elements. But it also limits you to take St Lawrence Seaway out of Great Lakes. With careful navigation you can still visit pretty much every good cruising ground out there but limits you a bit in your choices of anchorage. Is it 38-2? If so, that is great IOR boat design. 38-1 is a bit light on ballast.


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## ChristinaM (Aug 18, 2011)

krisscross said:


> But it also limits you to take St Lawrence Seaway out of Great Lakes.


We did the Erie & Oswego canals with 6'2 draft with room to spare. The western Erie can be a little tight but taking the Welland canal to Lake Ontario then the Oswego canal to the eastern Erie canal then out to the Hudson would be fine. The only exception was the town dock in Rome, NY but there's a wall next to it with plenty of depth.

Parts of the ICW can be shallow so if you're considering that then 6'5 is a bit much. We mostly did outside hops down the coast other than one short section inside Hatteras.

It sounds like you might ship the boat to Florida anyway, which means none of that matters.

I don't know much about the Florida coast.

If you want to spend a lot of time in the northern Bahamas & Florida Keys, 6'5 will be annoying and somewhat limiting. 6'2 was manageable everywhere but annoying in the Abacos. We briefly sat on the bottom on a mooring in Man-o-War Cay  If you won't like doing 5+ knots in 8' of water, then you won't be happy in the Exumas. I don't think I'd have enjoyed a whole winter in the Bahamas with 6'+ draft but for a month or two it was fine.

For Puerto Rico, the virgin islands, and the eastern Caribbean, it won't be much of an issue. There are a few spots that might take some planning but it won't limit you much.

If you really think you might spend a lot of time in Florida & the Bahamas, you might find a shallower draft a lot nicer. If you're really going to get past that area relatively quickly, then just deal with the inconvenience for a bit.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

I came all the way down the East Coast and am currently in the bahamas. But of course I have a shallow draft of only 6'4".


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

About the only place I know where 6.5' draft will cause you serious problems is the Fla Keys, especially bayside.
As I said in your last post, I've done the Bahamas w/9.5' w/o any major problems. Lots of Rolaids, but no problems. There will be shallower places in the Bahamas where you might not be comfortable going w/your 6.5' draft, but there are so many other lovely places, you won't miss much. If you carry a proper dink w/a decent engine, you can always anchor out and still get in to see (or get water/fuel) a place you can't get into.
I really don't see your worry. You aren't going to want to anchor in anything less than 10' anyway. Only a fool tucks up close to the beach in the tropics. If the mosquitoes don't drive you out of there, an unexpected westerly certainly will, hopefully before you are solidly aground.
We draw 6.6' w/the board up and there has not been one single anchorage in the Antilles we have not gone to because of our draft.
If you are really interested in ocean voyaging, you will kick yourself if you buy a shoal draft vessel, in the long run.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

I came through Lake Erie a few seasons ago with my 6’ draft boat and definitely found some marinas and anchorages that were off limits or left me sweating pretty hard. If I were staying in the lower Great Lakes I would look at something around a 5’ draft. 

But as I said elsewhere, draft is never-ending search for nirvana. Shallow is great for gunk holing and getting into thin marinas, but deep is better for actual sailing. No matter what your draft, there will be places you can’t go, so I’d find the right boat for now, and worry about the future later. 

Buying a Lake Erie boat, sailing and learning on it for a few years, then selling and buying in Florida will probably not cost you any more than buying big now and moving it down south.


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

Why not have it both ways? Keel/CB or swing keel will give you variable draft. No argument that deeper is better for going "up hill", but no argument that shallower allows more options for safe harbor. 

My swing keel boat (1' 10"/ 5' 11" per specs, but measures 2' 2"/ 6' 3" equipped and loaded for cruising) is sailed with the keel fully down and does very well to weather. With the keel (and rudder) up, you had better be on a run or motoring. That said I can take short cuts and anchor where most sailboats can't and that means the harbors are bigger and I can sneak into gunkhole territory to get out of nasty weather. I would NEVER trade off the shoal draft capability. 

If the OP wants to do the Keys and the Bahamas, 6' 5" is not impossible, but is very limiting. Despite other protestation that you can do it, it will come at a price of convenience and safety. If the OP wants to chance hurricane season in the Caribbean, he might check out the draft required for some of the hurricane holes.


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## BillMoran (Oct 1, 2016)

fallard said:


> Why not have it both ways? Keel/CB or swing keel will give you variable draft. No argument that deeper is better for going "up hill", but no argument that shallower allows more options for safe harbor.
> 
> My swing keel boat (1' 10"/ 5' 11" per specs, but measures 2' 2"/ 6' 3" equipped and loaded for cruising) is sailed with the keel fully down and does very well to weather. With the keel (and rudder) up, you had better be on a run or motoring. That said I can take short cuts and anchor where most sailboats can't and that means the harbors are bigger and I can sneak into gunkhole territory to get out of nasty weather. I would NEVER trade off the shoal draft capability.


That sounds wonderful. Now all I need is someone who's willing to sell one for under $60k.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

fallard said:


> If the OP wants to chance hurricane season in the Caribbean, he might check out the draft required for some of the hurricane holes.


"Hurricane holes" in the eastern Caribbean are a fallacy. Where once one might have tucked into some fairly secure little hole, these days the locals will bring their boats in at the last minute, throw our an anchor or two (quite often on rope only) and go home to be with their families.
I'm talking about everything from small freighters to very shallow draft dive and tour boats.
A much more practical hurricane plan is to run from the storm.
We sail without fear in the hurricane season because the internet provides me with all the information I need to make an informed decision (not forecasts) about where I will go, and when. But the last thing I would do is go into a "hurricane hole", set out my 5 anchors and be left at the last minute making the choice between staying where I am surrounded by poorly anchored yachts and local boats or running at that late date.
I think draft has little to do with one's security in a hurricane, and much to do with the numbers of no-see-ums and skeeters one gets aboard by anchoring in skinny water near the land.


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

capta said:


> "Hurricane holes" in the eastern Caribbean are a fallacy. Where once one might have tucked into some fairly secure little hole, these days the locals will bring their boats in at the last minute, throw our an anchor or two (quite often on rope only) and go home to be with their families.
> I'm talking about everything from small freighters to very shallow draft dive and tour boats.
> A much more practical hurricane plan is to run from the storm.
> We sail without fear in the hurricane season because the internet provides me with all the information I need to make an informed decision (not forecasts) about where I will go, and when. But the last thing I would do is go into a "hurricane hole", set out my 5 anchors and be left at the last minute making the choice between staying where I am surrounded by poorly anchored yachts and local boats or running at that late date.
> I think draft has little to do with one's security in a hurricane, and much to do with the numbers of no-see-ums and skeeters one gets aboard by anchoring in skinny water near the land.


Fair weather or foul, you have fewer options the deeper your draft. Arguing otherwise is simply rationalization for owners of deeper draft boats.

You will always have the problem of yahoos in a hurricane situation--including here in the Northeast. Nonetheless, draft has a LOT to do with your options when push comes to shove. If finding a shallow water spot means skeeters, there's Deep Woods Off and screens. Besides, shallow doesn't always mean closer to shore. And shallow means fewer deep draft boats can blow down on you when their anchors drag: I've been there in Block Island salt pond when a 30'+ keel boat drifted down on our catboat fleet (2' draft) in a 50 kt sustained blow and ground to a stop dozens of feet from one our our fleet.

All that said, it's always best not to ride out a hurricane at anchor. But trying to outrun or otherwise avoid it has its risks, too. Even hauling out can be problematic--witness those boats on the hard in Grenada during Ivan. (But, aren't hurricanes not supposed to go there?)


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Everyone is a little different regarding how close to the bottom they want/allow their keel when anchoring, and bad conditions will often require more depth.

1 ft of depth difference can sometimes be a 1/4 mile difference to shore. Greater, less, whatever...on some banks it can be very drawn out.

Ideal for me is a good breeze to keep away the buggies and being able to walk to shore...


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

BillMoran said:


> That sounds wonderful. Now all I need is someone who's willing to sell one for under $60k.


I was seriously considering a Tartan 37 a few years ago. Swing keel. Serious boat. Pretty sure it was under $60K, and this was seven years ago.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

fallard said:


> Fair weather or foul, you have fewer options the deeper your draft. Arguing otherwise is simply rationalization for owners of deeper draft boats.


The biggest difference between a deep draft boat and a shallow one is how close to shore you are when you run aground.

In foul weather wave action can be a greater determinant of what water is too shallow than draft.

In fair weather there are certainly more options with shallower drafts.

That leads to the question of how shallow is "shallow."

Taking 9' into Back Creek Annapolis was more exciting than I would like. In the dark. In the rain. With a sailing icon on board.

Six or seven feet is pretty easy just about anywhere I have sailed regularly: US East Coast, Europe, Bahamas, Caribbean, Gulf of Mexico.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

I sailed from Maine thru Annapolis and the Caribbean with a 6'-3" draft for 32 years. Lots to see and I felt no restrictions because of draft.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

RegisteredUser said:


> 1 ft of depth difference can sometimes be a 1/4 mile difference to shore. Greater, less, whatever...on some banks it can be very drawn out.


Hell here in the Bahamas 1' of depth could be miles and miles! A couple of weeks ago 1' of draft would have made a HUGE difference of where I anchored during a nasty gale.

But, there's anchoring and then there's sailing.


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

In my neighborhood, shallow draft is a necessity. The place I want to tie up most of the time is shoal. If I lived in Maine, I'd think differently. You are either deep or on the bricks. We've had center boarders and shoal keel boats to solve this problem. The advantages and disadvantages of each has been discussed in many threads on SN. 

IMHO the OP has it right, buy the deepest draft vessel you can live with and will allow you to get into "most" of places you want to go. I'd have a deeper draft boat if I lived someplace else for sure. Nothing goes to weather like a high aspect rig and deep blade keel. It's a trade-off where the right answer for each of us is different.


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

my formosa has 6'6 draft. 
only place i find i am not able to go is dry tortugas. but i went there in a boat with 4'6 draft so i am good to go to other places. 
difference in draft and performance--i prefer the deep draft for sailing comfort in ocean sailing, which i get to do each time i pull out of a port, anchorage or slip. funny thing about pacific--not many shallow areas. 
shallowest is barra de navidad lagoon-- depth anywhere from 1 ft to 14 ft in the anchorage, a lagoon with bad holding, and none during a cane. the closest marina is a designated cane hole, designed for exactly what it does best--protection of boats during hellacious stormage.
made patricia not so bad, despite the damages i sustained, which were my own fault. 
get out your paper charts and plan your routings according to your depth. it is not that difficult. 
fla sound is shallow--and tortugas are shallow. some of caribbean may be shallower than you desire, but much is with good depth. 
it does not take much to plan a trip in deep water. 
gom--where the tugs n tows are able to go, so can you.


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

The chart makers have made it easy to see where 6' draft is limiting. Just look at the deep blue zone that usually indicates waters of less than a fathom in harbors and along the way.

With a properly designed and built keel/CB or swing keel boat you can have it both ways. The qualifier is "properly designed". My swing keel boat will go to weather with the best of them with the full 6' elliptical foil keel down. But I leave the deep draft boats behind when my 2' shallow draft allows me to take the shortcut to Watch Hill/Napatree Pt anchorage. 

We also have more options in the inner harbor at Cuttyhunk, like the time my water pump failed and SeaTow was able to bring me to the only available town dock slip-- with 3' at low tide. That location faciiitated a connection with the water taxi operator who delivered my repair parts shortly after noon the following morning, saving me the ferry trip to New Bedford. At that time the NYYC summer cruise had descended on Cuttyhunk, filling the inner and outer harbors. (Had I been on their mailing list I wouldn't have headed there!) We had lost time trying to sort out the raw water issue and got behind the curve on current in Buzzards Bay, with a contrary wind. Had we continued to sail to Cuttyhunk, we would have arrived in the dark and tried to anchor among the larger NYYC boats occupying the outer harbor. I would not have connected with the water taxi operator and probably would have lost a day sorting out the repair.

So, I can go anywhere a deep draft boat can go and sail well in the process.


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## ianjoub (Aug 3, 2014)

capta said:


> A much more practical hurricane plan is to run from the storm.


I am still picking the scabs off of my hands from when I was crucified for saying that....


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

ianjoub said:


> I am still picking the scabs off of my hands from when I was crucified for saying that....


If you're in capta's area it's a strong Ace to have up your sleeve.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

ianjoub said:


> I am still picking the scabs off of my hands from when I was crucified for saying that....


After something over 35 named tropical cyclonic storms on various vessels (only two at sea), not to mention unnamed depressions and tropical waves, it would be my preference not to experience another one. It is not a pleasant experience, IMO.
Down here in the Windwards, running is a very viable option, if one has the weather information upon which to make an informed decision.


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

capta said:


> After something over 35 named tropical cyclonic storms on various vessels (only two at sea), not to mention unnamed depressions and tropical waves, it would be my preference not to experience another one. It is not a pleasant experience, IMO.
> Down here in the Windwards, running is a very viable option, if one has the weather information upon which to make an informed decision.


Here in Southern New England, with a hurricane working its way more or less, sorta, maybe up the coast, you may not be able to outrun it or predictably avoid it. Anybody remember the Bounty sinking after leaving New London and trying to avoid disaster? They would have been better off staying in place.

Often it's better to hunker down in a protected place if you can't get hauled in a secure location above the predicted storm surge. There are a lot more anchoring options when shallow water is available and where the wave mechanics are more favorable than deeper water. I had a catboat survive Gloria (1985) in the company of one of Parker's 45'shallow draft boats that came over from the Newport boat show. We were in about 2 1/2 - 3' (MLW) near nun 38 in the Mystic River. There were about 100 boats that were destroyed in the deeper--but open--water in the Noank anchorage at the mouth of the Mystic River.


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## Philabaco (Jan 22, 2015)

I know people who have explored most out of the way places around the Bahamas you may have to anchor out bit generally ok


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

ianjoub said:


> I am still picking the scabs off of my hands from when I was crucified for saying that....


What you suggested was just silly. @capta is already down island with fewer options and in a place where running perpendicular to the predicted track can work, especially if you start early.

Your scenario was a last minute run along the track with all kinds of limitations that risked the boat.



fallard said:


> Here in Southern New England, with a hurricane working its way more or less, sorta, maybe up the coast, you may not be able to outrun it or predictably avoid it. Anybody remember the Bounty sinking after leaving New London and trying to avoid disaster? They would have been better off staying in place.


The Bounty sailed into the teeth of disaster - they weren't avoiding anything. Just silly.


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

SVAuspicious said:


> The Bounty sailed into the teeth of disaster - they weren't avoiding anything. Just silly.


My point exactly. They weren't trying to sail into the storm, but it happened. Yes it was silly. Trying to avoid a storm--and it doesn't have to be a hurricane--in the Northeast can mean traveling parallel to the danger, vs. the perpendicular escape route along the Caribbean island string. El Faro was lost in similar fashion to the Bounty: both were sailing alongside the predicted tracks--not perpendicular to them and were not gaining the separation they desperately needed.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

fallard said:


> My point exactly. They weren't trying to sail into the storm, but it happened. Yes it was silly. Trying to avoid a storm--and it doesn't have to be a hurricane--in the Northeast can mean traveling parallel to the danger, vs. the perpendicular escape route along the Caribbean island string. El Faro was lost in similar fashion to the Bounty: both were sailing alongside the predicted tracks--not perpendicular to them and were not gaining the separation they desperately needed.


The master of El Faro, according to a report I just read, was making decisions on weather reports as much as 21 hours old.
The Bounty would have most likely survived had the captain stayed well to the east of the storm on his original heading. I don't think I ever heard a good explanation of why he turned west and into the storm.
Neither relates in any way to we sailors of small craft trying to seek shelter from a dangerous storm.
Neither vessel was seeking shelter from a storm, they were both trying to reach a destination in spite of the weather.


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

capta said:


> The master of El Faro, according to a report I just read, was making decisions on weather reports as much as 21 hours old.
> The Bounty would have most likely survived had the captain stayed well to the east of the storm on his original heading. I don't think I ever heard a good explanation of why he turned west and into the storm.
> Neither relates in any way to we sailors of small craft trying to seek shelter from a dangerous storm.
> Neither vessel was seeking shelter from a storm, they were both trying to reach a destination in spite of the weather.


That's not how I see it. The Bounty's skipper elected to "escape" New London, thinking he could sail around a very large storm. He was seeking shelter from the storm in this manner.

The El Faro skipper thought he wouldn't get caught. Both of these skippers misjudged the storm tracks--which is evidence of the risks in trying to sail out of harms way---and were trying to shelter at sea.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

fallard said:


> That's not how I see it. The Bounty's skipper elected to "escape" New London, thinking he could sail around a very large storm. He was seeking shelter from the storm in this manner.
> 
> The El Faro skipper thought he wouldn't get caught. Both of these skippers misjudged the storm tracks--which is evidence of the risks in trying to sail out of harms way---and were trying to shelter at sea.


El Faro was on a regularly scheduled run, not trying to seek shelter at sea or thinking he 'wouldn't get caught'. He easily had the power, fuel and seamanship necessary to save his ship by going farther east (or taking the Old Bahama Channel), *IF* he had had up to date weather information. A discussion about the fact that he relied on a weather service that failed him, might be of more importance to small craft sailors than this one.
There was also some question as to whether the company pushed the Bounty's captain to leave, as the vessel had commitments in Fla and the dock in Conn was expensive. They have denied this, but what else would you expect, after the fact? However, his original course and intention to go east of the storm was a valid one and would probably worked out OK, but as I said, I've not heard a good explanation as to why he turned west and into the storm's path.
Again, neither has anything to do with small craft storm avoidance. 
In any case, I do not advocate 'seeking shelter at sea' for small craft. A run along the island chain out of a storm's path, 3 days in advance of a coming storm, is hardly 'seeking shelter at sea'.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Bill-
Consider this. Buy a chartbook, even a ten year old used chartbook, for the Florida coast and the islands you want to sail around. (Actually you can download and print the NOAA charts for Florida, if you don't mind pasting pages together.)

Now take a red highlighter, and start marking off the charted six foot depths. That's where you can't sail with a 6' draft. Or perhaps 5' or 7', whatever you choose. If you look at the options from, say, Miami to the Key West? Yeah, with a 6'5" draft and allowing for low water...You'll see why Charlie Morgan designed the Out Island 41 with only some 4'2" of draft. (That's the market he was targeting.)

Numbers are all well and good, but I think really SEEING the "NoGo!" areas marked out in simple color on a chart gives everything a better perspective.

The Landfalls are classic boats for good reasons, but they are not designed for gunkholing. They carry dinghies for that.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

It's amazing how many ships named Bounty have sunk. Anyone remember the wreck of the HMS Bounty in the Pacific? 

Gary


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

travlin-easy said:


> It's amazing how many ships named Bounty have sunk. Anyone remember the wreck of the HMS Bounty in the Pacific?
> 
> Gary


There are some decent youtubes of Pitcairn.


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

capta said:


> El Faro was on a regularly scheduled run, not trying to seek shelter at sea or thinking he 'wouldn't get caught'. He easily had the power, fuel and seamanship necessary to save his ship by going farther east (or taking the Old Bahama Channel), *IF* he had had up to date weather information. A discussion about the fact that he relied on a weather service that failed him, might be of more importance to small craft sailors than this one.
> There was also some question as to whether the company pushed the Bounty's captain to leave, as the vessel had commitments in Fla and the dock in Conn was expensive. They have denied this, but what else would you expect, after the fact? However, his original course and intention to go east of the storm was a valid one and would probably worked out OK, but as I said, I've not heard a good explanation as to why he turned west and into the storm's path.
> Again, neither has anything to do with small craft storm avoidance.
> In any case, I do not advocate 'seeking shelter at sea' for small craft. A run along the island chain out of a storm's path, 3 days in advance of a coming storm, is hardly 'seeking shelter at sea'.


None of this changes the fact that folks put to sea thinking they could avoid an approaching hurricane. Whether they had bad or late data, or had scheduling pressures, they got caught by not staying in a safe(r) harbor. Blaming it on the weather service belies the fact of poor judgement by the skippers. I don't understand how this is any different than stupidity or ignorance by a small boat sailor.

Wasn't it SVAuspicious who advised against sailing to a schedule?


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

I would like to add another dimension to the draft discussion.

How secure do you feel with your keel?

Let's say you have a lightly built boat with a 5-1/2' fin keel. What are the reprocussion of that thing touching? If the thought of you ever scraping makes your skin crawl and if you do you need to run for a lift to examin for damage, then you are going to sail very cautiously.

If, like me, you drive a 6-1/2" tank, (cut away full keep, 1/4" steel) then running over a rock or two ain't no big deal. I can drive right up in at low tide. Scrapped for about 50' coming out of Green Turtle the other day. 

So there is that element also.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

zeehag said:


> my formosa has 6'6 draft.
> only place i find i am not able to go is dry tortugas. but i went there in a boat with 4'6 draft so i am good to go to other places.
> difference in draft and performance--i prefer the deep draft for sailing comfort in ocean sailing, which i get to do each time i pull out of a port, anchorage or slip. funny thing about pacific--not many shallow areas.
> shallowest is barra de navidad lagoon-- depth anywhere from 1 ft to 14 ft in the anchorage, a lagoon with bad holding, and none during a cane. the closest marina is a designated cane hole, designed for exactly what it does best--protection of boats during hellacious stormage.
> ...


Zee,
Off topic.
We are 6-1/2' and were thinking of the Dry Tortugas next year. I've not done my due diligence yet but I thought I read I could carry about 7-1/2' into Dry Tortugas at the old fort.

Also you recall where the 6' limit was? I want to research it.

Thanks.


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## BillMoran (Oct 1, 2016)

hellosailor said:


> Bill-
> Consider this. Buy a chartbook, even a ten year old used chartbook, for the Florida coast and the islands you want to sail around. (Actually you can download and print the NOAA charts for Florida, if you don't mind pasting pages together.)
> 
> Now take a red highlighter, and start marking off the charted six foot depths. That's where you can't sail with a 6' draft. Or perhaps 5' or 7', whatever you choose. If you look at the options from, say, Miami to the Key West? Yeah, with a 6'5" draft and allowing for low water...You'll see why Charlie Morgan designed the Out Island 41 with only some 4'2" of draft. (That's the market he was targeting.)
> ...


I've already sort of done that. I didn't actually print them out and mark them up, but I went through ActiveCaptain with different drafts in mind to see where I'd have issues. While I drew a lot of my own conclusions, I still felt that the input of this group was valuable. In the end, the charts won't easily tell me if I'm going to feel frustrated. They don't really give a good indication as to whether I'll be sitting somewhere 2 years from now trying to plan a trip and realizing that too many of the places I _want_ to go are too difficult or off limits. Things like the bug situation are the kind of experiences that I'm learning from this community that don't show up on charts (although, it would be nice if the charts show bug infested areas ...)


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## BillMoran (Oct 1, 2016)

hpeer said:


> I would like to add another dimension to the draft discussion.
> 
> How secure do you feel with your keel?
> 
> ...


That's a whole 'nother question that I hadn't gotten around to asking yet. Obviously, any grounding with a fin keel is a concern because of the construction, whereas a lot of full keel boats can be run aground intentionally without worry. The more I process all this information, the more I think that a swing keel might be worth it, even if it means sacrificing on some of the other features I want.


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## ianjoub (Aug 3, 2014)

hpeer said:


> Zee,
> Off topic.
> We are 6-1/2' and were thinking of the Dry Tortugas next year. I've not done my due diligence yet but I thought I read I could carry about 7-1/2' into Dry Tortugas at the old fort.
> 
> ...


I was just there in a Jenneau 53'. I think it was 6'6" draft, we had no problems.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

fallard said:


> Wasn't it SVAuspicious who advised against sailing to a schedule?


Wow, I'm just amazed that you quoted SVAuspicious in this discussion of commercial vessels. I seriously doubt he had commercial shipping in mind when he wrote that.
Cargo carrying ships run scheduled routes and avoid bad weather as much is practical, but they do not stay in port just because there may be a storm in their path. They use whatever information they can to plan their routes safely, but if they are fed misinformation, then you cannot blame the captain for his choices. Not to say anything excuses him of the ultimate responsibility, but fault and responsibility are not the same thing. Ask Joseph Hazelwood.
Pis*ing about on a sailboat for pleasure is a far cry from operating a multi-million dollar vessel w/cargo worth more than the ship's value, and must be delivered on schedule. No ship's master would keep his job if he refused to sail at the appointed time. The company would have another on the bridge before the old captain had his stuff packed. That is the reality in commercial shipping. El Faro wasn't some little boat, either. She was nearly 800 feet long and though she had some deficiencies according to the CG, they were not severe enough to have the vessel kept in port.
The Bounty is a completely different scenario. Had the captain stuck to his original plan, he would have been well east of that storm and probably had great sailing weather for a big, old, heavy vessel like the Bounty. Why he turned west when he did, putting his vessel into the Gulfstream and into that storm, we shall never know. 
Now that we are chartering we must not only keep to a schedule, things like weather windows no longer exist. We must go when we must go and if we get our butts kicked, that's tough. We like the challenge of sailing from place to place and arriving on time, rather than sitting for days in some anchorage waiting for a weather window. Sure it's tougher on the boat and gear, but it makes us more competent sailors than we would be if we only sailed in fair weather. And I guess that's good if we are taking paying passengers.


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

capta said:


> Wow, I'm just amazed that you quoted SVAuspicious in this discussion of commercial vessels. I seriously doubt he had commercial shipping in mind when he wrote that.
> Cargo carrying ships run scheduled routes and avoid bad weather as much is practical, but they do not stay in port just because there may be a storm in their path. They use whatever information they can to plan their routes safely, but if they are fed misinformation, then you cannot blame the captain for his choices.


I thought we were talking about avoiding hurricanes. Good judgement applies to all mariners and, yes, the captain is ultimate responsible for obtaining good information, particularly when the risks are high. We just were discussing 2 large vessels that went into HURRICANES to keep to some schedule. In both of these cases their tracks were parallel to the storm tracks. Both took chances--and there is no other way to put it--and lost their gamble.

The point here was that we in the Northeast are not likely to predictably move out of the path of an impending hurricane and that having more options for hurricanes holes is an advantage of shallow draft.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

capta said:


> Wow, I'm just amazed that you quoted SVAuspicious in this discussion of commercial vessels. I seriously doubt he had commercial shipping in mind when he wrote that.


I sail to a schedule all the time. I can't imagine saying that as a sweeping generalization although perhaps in a particular scenario.

We've had people posit specific scenarios that were at best foolhardy. Running a 6 kt boat in front of a hurricane moving at 30 kts would be one. I am confident that @capta was thinking about heading South from down island in the face of a storm heading West. I'm also confident he was not talking about leaving two days before projected landfall.

Comparing commercial schedules (like El Faro, but not Bounty) to recreational boats is specious. They go three or four times faster than we do and have better data on board. The El Faro did seem to be in a bad place but they were at the wrong end of a cascade of failures. To all indications the Bounty was very bad judgment problems.

There is judgment in all sailing. Should recreational boaters all stay home just because there is a hurricane or cyclone anywhere in the adjacent ocean? Should you head to sea inside the 1-2-3 cone? Don't do dumb things.


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

my experience has been that sailing to a schedule written in stone causes more distress and accidents and shipwrecks than sailing to a looosely arranged guideline. we were "shipwrecked " in st joseph sound in 2010 when we had to get back to nola for a flight i was spozed to take back to san diego-- we were lucky to be able to limp back 290 miles to get into nola within 24 hours of rescheduled flight out. educational and challenging experience
nature follows no schedules, and it is presumptuous to not have a back up plan forever when planning or scheduling passages and excursions. 
remember the minnow. and sea boa. (hit sleeping whale in darkness, 2016, spring, on his way north for summer), and other recreational boating losses. 
i write my schedules in liquid jello and wet sand. 
and i have backup plans for the entire alphabet. i learned from my shipwreck that schedules suck it outta ye, leaving ye to exhaustion
and resultant errors. 
is nice to be able to avoid these disasters, but w eeach get our educational experiences from nature.
happy sails and be careful out here
as for draft in fort jefferson-- our boat was 4.5 ft draft-- we were able to use entire area at the fort as most of it is 5 ft depth. there are deep spots but i didnt record those for future use, sadly. closest to the channel is deeper than near the shoals/islands


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## ianjoub (Aug 3, 2014)

zeehag said:


> m
> as for draft in fort jefferson-- our boat was 4.5 ft draft-- we were able to use entire area at the fort as most of it is 5 ft depth. there are deep spots but i didnt record those for future use, sadly. closest to the channel is deeper than near the shoals/islands


We definitely had to use care as to where we went, but there is access to everything (within dinghy range) even with deep draft.

The chart pretty accurately represents what we saw with our depth finder and physical observation.

Chart 11438


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## jlubbimir2 (May 19, 2017)

We carried 8' draft into ft jefferson anchorage. Anchored in center near the white mooring ball.

s/v Patriot
Apogee 58


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