# Tragedy on Lake Texoma



## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

I know they're not sailboats but....

Five people lost their lives yesterday on Lake Texoma when their boats collided in a "poker run"

The man that owns the green boat, "Nashville Catz" spoke to me briefly Saturday AM. He had just pulled in, and As I was focusing the camera, he yelled over to me...

"Hey, You wouldn't happen to have 5 bucks so I can launch this beast would ya? I'm Broke! "

He laughed and said that he was just kidding. Less than 5 hours later his spouse would be dead, and he's in grave condition in Parkland Hospital.

The thing that really twists me about this is that its been said that the Flash Gordon boat had steering problems while at one of the stops, and had "problems" getting away from the gas dock because of the steering problems.

There is no excuse for two boats travelling at 100mph to be ANYWHERE NEAR EACH OTHER on a 89,000 acre lake.

Four people in the other boat "Flash Gordon" were killed on impact. 
That boats website is here...

http://flashgordonproductions.com/

I have enclosed pictures of the Nashville Catz boat, and Flash Gordons boat, before the collision.

Here is the story from the local paper.

The collision of two speed boats at Lake Texoma Saturday killed five people and injured another. Tim Hayes, vice president at High Port Marina, said Saturday started, "as a perfect day," but ended up "an absolute tragedy,"

He said the High Roller Poker Run II was under way with around 60 boats involved when the news started coming in that there had been an "awful accident."

"It involved six people, four in one boat and two in another," Oklahoma Highway Trooper Kera Philippi said.

Although Philippi couldn't release the names of the dead and injured pending the notification of relatives, Hayes confirmed that the four people killed in a boat called "Flash Gordon" were speed boat driver and promoter Gordon Mineo, his wife Anne and their daughter and future son-in-law.

Hayes couldn't identify the two people from the second boat. They were flown by medical helicopters to area hospitals. The sole survivor of the collision, Philippi said, was taken to Parkland Hospital in Dallas. A woman on that boat was taken to Texoma Medical Center in Denison "where she succumbed to her injuries," Philippi said.

Hayes said the accident happened about a mile west of the U.S. Highway 377 over pass on the west end of the lake near Willis Bridge.

The collision occurred when one boat was hit on its side in the middle by the other watercraft, Philippi said.

Hayes said Poker Run was not sponsored by HighPort, but the awards dinner was to be held there at the end. The game is played by participating teams getting a card at each of five different stops and then comparing their cards at the end of the game. The team with the best poker had at the end wins.

Hayes said the accident stopped the event but other activities at the lake continued. He said poker runs have been a tradition on the lake for around 20 years and none have ever ended in a tragedy like the one that happened Saturday.

After confirming that the events were an economic boom to the merchants around the lake, Hayes said he is not sure what kind of an impact the collision will have on the practice.

"I am sure it won't be good though," Hayes said.

He said the drivers of both of the boats involved "were world class" and have many years of experience.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

Frequent sailing of a midsize boat on the ocean provides a variety of thrills and pleasure and a few occasions which can be extra exciting: dense fog, carrying a spinnaker in too much breeze, rounding a mark in a crowd of big boats, heavy weather. etc. etc. 

However there's only once situation that actually scares me when sailing - having a cigarette boat pass close by at high speed. Operating a powerboat at 60+ knots within 100 yards of another boat is the mark of a fool who is playing with other peoples' lives. You just know that, should the operator need another beer, and find the cooler empyty, and have to reach under the console to pull out a new six-pack, that in that ten seconds of carlessness, he will cut though you as if you weren't even there.

But true terror comes from having two of these high octanne AHs cruising together, and perhaps pushing the pedals to see who has more horses, then the odds really go down hill. The most vivid memory of my thirty five years of boating, is passing through the narrow entrance to Boston Harbor one sunny Saturday, and having two cigarette boats come out of the Harbor at some ungodly speed, I'd guess 60-70 but who can say, there's no reference for that type of speed, one passed 30 yards to port and the other 30 yards to starboard, and we were truely terrified.

So if these folks didn't see this accident coming, I saw it for them. At least they didn't involve any innocent bystanders.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Then again there really is no need for any boat to be going anywhere near that fast on a public waterway. Boats don't have brakes that work. Steering on a fast boat is also a crap shoot....


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Let's see now...anyone with the money and the macho is allowed to just walk up and buy these things and put them on the water, right?

Yep, rich and dumb and macho. I'm just glad they only killed each other, instead of casual bystanders. No sympathy here.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I'd have to agree with hellosailor... unfortunately, this is an exception..as the idiots in the go-superfast boats usually end up killing innocent bystanders more often than not.


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## knothead (Apr 9, 2003)

I'm just glad they only killed each other said:


> A month or so ago I was driving south on I275 in the middle of the day. Traffic wasn't heavy, I was in the center of three lanes doing about 65. A crotch rocket entered, sped up and passed me in the right lane, then crossed over to the fast lane in front of me. I was wondering what the hell he was doing as he slowed down and I passed him, when suddenly he popped a wheelie right next to me and held it for at least a hundred yards or so. After screwing around like that for a minute or so he buzzed on and I was left to fantisize about rounding the next bend in the freeway and seeing the little a..hole pulled over by a trooper. I would have felt like crap if I had seen him splattered all over the freeway. I never even imagined the scenario.
> The lack of empathy I get from you guys is astounding.
> While I'm sure you all have never done anything foolish, foolhardy, discurteous or stupid, is it too much to ask you let the bodies cool before you start in with your selfrighteous, judgemental and thoughtless comments?


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"The lack of empathy I get from you guys is astounding. 
While I'm sure you all have never done anything foolish, foolhardy, discurteous or stupid, is it too much to ask you let the bodies cool before you start in with your selfrighteous, judgemental and thoughtless comments?"

Well, Knothead, speaking only for myself, sure, I've done things that were foolish or stupid. Lived through the stupid ones and later learned not to chance repeating them. Of course, once upon a time none of us drove with seat belts and that would be called stupid today.

But in the case of those guys? Anyone that can afford to burn $500-1000 on an afternoon beer run can afford to learn how boats work. What we see time and time again is guys who have more macho than brains, and I'd give you odds they were playing chicken to see who could get to the next point faster. That's just plain STUPID when you consider that boats at the speed simply CANNOT be controlled 100%, and any accident at that speed WILL BE FATAL.

If I killed myself the same way, I wouldn't expect much sympathy, drunk or sober. Wait to see if they recover enough body parts to do a blood alcohol reading, I'd bet on BWI as well as BWS (Boating while stupid).

Empathy? Yeah, I have empathy. What's left of it gets applied with the standard rules for triage. And these guys were just plain old Category 3, no matter what you do they're gonna die [sic], so you save it for someone else who might benefit from it.

If the crotchrocket jock spilled and you slid on his remains and wound up stuffing into a tree at 60mph and sitting in the hospital for a couple of months...would you feel sorry for HIM? I hope not. Terminal stupidity is a natural part of life, and if we weren't doing such a good job of fighting mother nature with bleeding heart regulations, we might have less of it in the gene pool.

Wanna do without seat belts? PFDs? Swim without lifeguards among rip currents and sharks? Hey, that's fine with me. Just don't expect me to mourn the folks who do it, and don't get lucky. We're supposed to know better by now.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I would have to say that the two boats were probably endangering other boats, given the speeds that they were capable and probably moving at. Have you ever been hit by the wake off of a powerboat like that moving at over 60 knots... I have, it's not a whole lot of fun, and a good way to get hurt by their actions.

I don't mind people choosing to be stupid, and a lot of people do it...*I do mind when it may possibly affect me and mine though...*Those two boats could have easily killed a lot more than just each other. If either one of those had lost control and plunged into a crowded marina on a holiday weekend, like this Labor Day weekend, how many people do you think could have been killed.

*No, I don't have much sympathy for people who are too arrogant to have consideration for others and aren't smart enough to boat responsibly.*


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## knothead (Apr 9, 2003)

Hey guys, if it makes you feel better somehow, go for it. 
This was a planned event, I don't get the impression that the drivers were new to the sport and I just don't think they or their families deserve to be labled as "idiots" or"rich and dumb and macho", or frankly anything by people who don't even know them. 
I don't see any reason why people need to go that fast on the water either but guess what, I don't own the freakin water. Neither do you. I'd like to see all the idiots who don't know how to drive taken off the roads too, but I don't own the damn roads. I just have to learn to coexist with the idiots. And when one of them dies, I just think it's a little more compassionate, or maybe even civilized, to withhold opinions about their character, than to berate the dead.


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## yotphix (Aug 18, 2006)

Nice Knothead. People are people and if one of us had a brother who liked to drive boats fast at events for gofast boats and was killed we would sure feel crappy. Unless there was another article posted I don't think any of us know the details beyond the fact of the boats being capable of dangerous speeds.
Lets also remember that there is no shortage of sailors who are dangerous to themselves and others.

Incidentally sailingdog, boats travelling at 60 knots plus generally don't make nearly the wake that they would while "in the hole" just before planing speed. They have so little hull in the water that they just don't move that much of it.


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## tommyt (Sep 21, 2002)

I have to agree with Knothead here. Unless you want to be known as a self rigtheous sailor who never takes risks or does something wrong ( good luck fella's) you should let the families of these people grieve and stop sounding like anyone that does something you don't like is wrong. In this case dead wrong. 
Look at those boats and the rigs pulling them. There guys are pros. Someone made a mistake. This board is beginning to get way to self righteous.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*I was there*

I was on Lake Texoma over the weekend. We motored right past the Nashville Catz boat in our sailboat. It was lying stern down in shallow water near shore and there were police boats around it as they worked to haul it onshore. The word on the lake was that the accident as due to severe steering problems on Flash Gordon as the sped from marina to marina on a poker run.

There were other go fast boats around us, even after the tragedy. With boats that fast, it could as easily been our sailboat that was struck as we motored at four knots. While the drivers of these boats may have skill, speed on the water has its risks, and no one can foresee a sudden mechanical failure at speed. I have to question the judgment of people who travel at these high speeds on crowded lakes on holiday weekends. For instance, there are also nearly invisible wakeboarders and swimmers in the water all over the place. Its not always easy to see that small head bobbing 200 ft away from the ski boat.

Our thoughts go out to the grieving families of these boaters, but we hope there is a lesson learned here.

Q


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## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

The flashgordon had TWIN TURBINE ENGINES OUT OF A UH-1 HELICOPTER AT 960HP EACH. 

The problem as I see it, is that it was not "sudden mechanical failure" it has been reported that flashgordon had problems approaching the gas dock due to steering problems at the previous stop. He then had steering problems getting away from that same dock due to steering problems. I know he was the promoter of he event. I know he had a vested interest. I know that there is no prize money for finishing "first". That being the case, 


a)why did he continue? 
b)how come there were NO sailboaters entered? 

Simple, it is understood that this event is for the gofast boys and their toys. 

I do have empathy for the families, but in my opinion, there is NO EXCUSE for him to continue the "non-race".

Q, 
You know what that lake is like on holiday weekends, you know the amount of adult beverage consumption on oh, say, north island.... what the hell were these people thinking? 
I'm not against gofast boats, infact, I've got dozens of pics of them on Sat. morning. I doubt that there was much booze consumed by the serious participants, but how many imbibed boaters were there on the lake Saturday? 
I'll wager quite a few.


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## FormerAdministrator (Jan 10, 2000)

hellosailor said:


> Let's see now...anyone with the money and the macho is allowed to just walk up and buy these things and put them on the water, right?
> 
> Yep, rich and dumb and macho. I'm just glad they only killed each other, instead of casual bystanders. No sympathy here.


yes, just like any kid can walk in a motorcycle dealer and buy a 200 mph street bike for abour $15,000 or person with enough money can walk in a Lamborghini showroom and drive out with a 220 mph car.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

administrator said:


> yes, just like any kid can walk in a motorcycle dealer and buy a 200 mph street bike for abour $15,000 or person with enough money can walk in a Lamborghini showroom and drive out with a 220 mph car.


I'd like to point out that there is a major difference. The person going in and getting the crotch rocket or the Lamborghini *probably has a driver's license, and probably had some education regarding driving. *Whether they have any common sense is a different story...but there should be a base level of knowledge, at least enough that they were able to obtain a license in most cases. This is not the case with boats. *There is no such requirement for any minimal education standard or licensing for an adult to operate a boat, regardless of how powerful in most states. * This may be changing, but at least in the states I am familiar with, there are no current requirements..

_Granted, there will the the occassional whack job, who goes and drives without any education or training in the operation of a motor vehicle, and who isn't licensed...*but in the majority of cases, the operator has had some training or education towards driving or operating a motor vehicle. *_


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## chrondi (Mar 24, 2004)

It is very hard, without knowing the exact circumstances, to generalise, judge and condemn the attitude of power boat owners and skippers. Nevertheless, isn’t it strange that the sailing community expresses repeatedly so many complaints about the aggressiveness of high speed vessels? There should be some truth in all these stories and unfortunately everybody has more than once experienced similar situations.


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## knothead (Apr 9, 2003)

sailingdog said:


> I'd like to point out that there is a major difference. The person going in and getting the crotch rocket or the Lamborghini *probably has a driver's license, and probably had some education regarding driving. *Whether they have any common sense is a different story...but there should be a base level of knowledge, at least enough that they were able to obtain a license in most cases. This is not the case with boats. *There is no such requirement for any minimal education standard or licensing for an adult to operate a boat, regardless of how powerful in most states. *This may be changing, but at least in the states I am familiar with, there are no current requirements..
> 
> _Granted, there will the the occassional whack job, who goes and drives without any education or training in the operation of a motor vehicle, and who isn't licensed...*but in the majority of cases, the operator has had some training or education towards driving or operating a motor vehicle. *_


What would you like to see, Licensing for boaters? 
I've got news for you, virtually no one upon recieving their first drivers license knows how to drive. A good driver matures with time and experience. 
Personally, I think we are losing too many freedoms as it is. 
If you can tell me that you have always been 100% prepared and educated before you took chances in you life, then I yeild. However, I don't think you can. 
There are a lot of people in this world who, if asked, would say that it's crazy to set sail in a little sailboat and cross an ocean. It's something they just don't understand. To you, it's a natural and even reletively safe. Tell me how many good sailors have lost their lives. How much money has the government spent rescuing sailors who have underestimated the conditions, their vessel or their own abilities? 
How would you like to be told that it's "stupid" "reckless" and that you can't live that lifestyle anymore because the majority doesn't think you should. 
I kinda think that your tune would change.


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## captnnero (Jul 19, 2006)

*looking down the road*



knothead said:


> What would you like to see, Licensing for boaters?
> I've got news for you, virtually no one upon recieving their first drivers license knows how to drive. A good driver matures with time and experience.
> Personally, I think we are losing too many freedoms as it is.
> If you can tell me that you have always been 100% prepared and educated before you took chances in you life, then I yeild. However, I don't think you can.
> ...


Hey Knothead,

Can you imagine what it would be like on the roads if those new drivers who don't know how to drive also didn't know the rules of the road ? At least the basic driving test catches a lot of those problems.

There is no substitute for a formal education and there is no substitute for experience. Sometimes we need some education up front so we don't kill ourselves or someone else before we can get experience. After all, that is why we have rules of the road such as yield to the right on our highways.

When it comes to high speed vehicles or vessels, when two operators on a 90 degree collision course see each other often it is too late to prevent. It is a fatal problem with fast cars, boats, and even airplanes on intersecting runways.

About 10 years ago Maryland started requiring a basic boating safety course for every boat operator born after about 1980. That way at least there is hope that the operators out there will have more background eventually through attrition of the older boaters. Of course the there needs to be real substance to the course and other pressures through insurance requirements and enforcement.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Tommyt-
"you should let the families of these people grieve " How on earth do you conclude that anything that anyone says or does here, in any way affects whether those families can be, will be, or are greiving? Or perhaps, celibrating? Yes, I know folks who would say "Thank God Uncle Bob finally killed himself without talking anyone else with him!"

"and stop sounding like anyone that does something you don't like is wrong." 
Ah, turning two boats and multiple lives into a pile of dead trash IS wrong. It's not just what I consider wrong, it is what most societies and most humans consider wrong. It is wrong by all societal norms. No society accepts "Ooopsie!" as a good thing when a captain is saying it and there's a stiff price being paid.

"There guys are pros. Someone made a mistake." Actually, what you are looking at indicates they were not pros. Sure, it is possible that there was a mechanical failure and this was no one's fault. And if that's announced, I for one will accept it with the same heartless equanimity that I accept the apparent macho accident as being just another accident. 

Even in basic defensive driving classes, and pilot training, and many other areas, you are taught that you have a perimeter, an impact zone, an action zone, and that as the "pilot" you must be aware of anything entering your zone--and take active steps to ensure you cannot impact it, or it you.

When you're moving at 100mph with no brakes, no shields, and you are within impact range of another missile moving at the same speed...You've already committed hubris simply by remaining in that exposed position without needing to be there. You're taking on more risk than is needed. Unless you're transferring vital goods between PT boats during a combat run, and these guys weren't. At 100mph you are crossing some 150 feet PER SECOND and that means if you are within 150 feet of something, all it takes is one BLINK and you've hit it. Two boats moving at that speed? That's right, you can hit each other head-on from opposite ends of a football field--in just a second.

I'm all for their freedom to go out and kill themselves, I just find it upsetting that they can also kill anyone else within sight, without restriction. So while we may debate licensing and freedoms...I won't mourn them until and unless I find out there's more here than has been reported. (As there often is.)

The price of their fuel for their afternoon run probably could have fed a thousand kids in the Sudan for a full year. Better to save the tears for the kids, who just happened to be born in the wrong place and time, than the folks who should have known better.


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## dakuehn (Aug 21, 2006)

I am new to sailing (pursuing both classroom and outdoor instruction) and was considering leasing a slip at Texoma since it is one of the largest and most topographically interesting lakes near the dfw metro area. I am reconsidering this option however, because of this and other similar stories involving Lake Texoma. In my opinion, if you can afford a boat like these, you should be able to afford a condo in Galveston, Corpus or the like to go with it--I would like to see them outlawed from Texas-area lakes or at a minimum their owners force to pay huge user fees for the inconvenience (harm) poised to others.


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## pigslo (Nov 22, 2004)

There is always the pull between those who want more government and those that want less. Both sides have their points in this case and so it is not clear or easy to choose a side. I prefer to keep government out of my life but at the same time it would be nice to see them issue a ticket to someone endangering others lives.

Actually, yes I do own the road!


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

I was on Lake Texoma over the weekend, but did not see the accident. I heard many details about it, although they were all second hand.

Let me start off by saying I am NOOOOOO fan of these boats. I went on one once with a friend of mine that had no shortage of money for toys. You cannot hear a crappin' thing. It is ZZHHHHEEEEWWWWWW across the water way. Your hair is blown to hell. Your eyeballs all dried out. Your lips flappin' like a monkeys. God forbid if anything flies off. It does not need to float b/c there is no way you could go get it anyway! Once we made it across the lake (in a matter of minutes), he stopped and turned to me and the wives, and said, "Wow! Was that sweet... Or what?"

The thought of saying, "Or what!!" came to my mind, but I did not feel like swimming back. We took them out on our boat later (sail boat). I think he fell asleep, though his wife liked it.

It just is not my speed (no pun intended!). I guess it is not anyones speed that probably reads this forum. But I like blue. Others like green. I don't own the water. Each to his own.

I for one am sorry they got hurt and killed, though I could not care less for their boats sinking. Maybe out of all of this some good can come: racing and speed regulation. On Fort Myers Beach, they have the annual racing circuit just off the coast. You can anchor out and sit there and watch them fly by at incredible speeds. It is regulated and patroled (C Guard, Sherrif, etc.). When a boat is moving that fast, it SHOULD be regulated unless they are far enough offshore that they are unlikely to hurt anyone else. Anyone who thinks they should be able to open up a boat to those types of speeds without a speed limit or regulation is CRAZY!! This is especially true on lakes and waterways that are open to the public. 

Those are just my opinios, but I am the only Republican that is a Bleeding Heart Liberal. I hate to see people hurt, anyone.. though I am glad it was only the people participating. There is still enough water on the world for us all to share. We just need to find a way to all get along.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I'm not saying that there should be mandatory licensing...but every boater, *especially one that is handling a lethal weapon, capable of killing quite a few people, because it is moving at 30+ knots without any real effective brakes, should at least have a basic understanding of boating rules of the road and boating ettiquette.* _A sailboat, doing seven knots is not going to cause that many problems, and isn't anywhere near as hazardous to innocent bystanders as a high-speed powerboat. _


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Shortly after we purchased our sailboat we along with many other sail and power boats on Lake Texoma witnessed our first poker run. This was last summer and it about scared both my wife and I half to death. Fortunately we are still around to talk about it. 

About ten minutes after the boats passed us (we were heading east and they were going in the opposite direction) the Coast Guard announced that there would be a poker run on the lake. Not that a timely announcement would have helped but it would have given us some warning.

As I understand it speed is not required to win the race the best poker hand wins. With that said Flash Gordon and other race boats passed us at excessive speeds if not at wide open throttle. We had no choice but to sit there and wait out the onslaught of boats heading directly towards us.

I have to agree with dakuehn that racing up and down Texoma (there are narrow areas) is not in the best interest nor safety of other boaters. The practice should be stopped on Lake Texoma before others are killed or seriously injured. 

The Coast Guard along with the Army Corp of Engineers needs to manage this situation and put a stop to any further events of this kind on Texoma and other similar size lakes.


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## resdog (Mar 29, 2006)

I'm appalled at the lack of empathy expressed in this thread. The offshore power boat community is deeply saddened by this accident if any of you would care to check in on the larger offshore power boat forums. I am both a sailor and a power boater, so I find this animosity between the two factions unfortunate.

Organized poker runs are not races although there are always individuals who are out to be the fastest boat on the lake, ocean, etc. Excessive speeds on a very crowded holiday weekend should not be permitted and it is up to the poker run organizers to police their participants for both speed and stupidity. I've seen rude and arrogant behavior equally displayed during sailing regattas.

From what I understand this accident was the result of mechanical failure and the boats are to be reconstructed to determine the exact cause.

We should all keep the families involved in this tragedy in our thoughts as fellow boaters.


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## knothead (Apr 9, 2003)

resdog said:


> I'm appalled at the lack of empathy expressed in this thread. The offshore power boat community is deeply saddened by this accident if any of you would care to check in on the larger offshore power boat forums. I am both a sailor and a power boater, so I find this animosity between the two factions unfortunate.
> 
> Organized poker runs are not races although there are always individuals who are out to be the fastest boat on the lake, ocean, etc. Excessive speeds on a very crowded holiday weekend should not be permitted and it is up to the poker run organizers to police their participants for both speed and stupidity. I've seen rude and arrogant behavior equally displayed during sailing regattas.
> 
> ...


You said it better than I did. Amen.


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## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

These events are held across the country, drawing thousands of spectators. I am not against these events, but common sense must prevail. Over 100 boats were entered in this poker run, and not one sailboat. 

Heres one suggestion. We, as sailing enthusiasts, enter these non-race poker runs. As a group, I believe we could make some changes. For example, it would take oh, 2 days with decent winds to make all the stops.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Resdog,

As I have said (and others): I regret the loss of life. I cannot speak for the others who do not share my sympathies, but I will say that after many close encounters, sailors in general have a problem with a speeding bullet that can kill them and their families.

I ENJOY watching the offshore races in Fort Myers. It is monitored and patrolled. A wide open free-for-all on a lake risks many more lives than just their own.

If I can make a view point, and maybe a bad one: If you go offshore, you take your life in your own hands. It is your risk (though you may risk the Coast Guard too, but that is another story). When they speed like that down a lake with little or no regulation, they take everyones lives in their hands. I think that is the frustration with many sailors in this thread... but I cannot and will not attempt to speak for them.

Again, to quote what I wrote earlier, "I for one am sorry they got hurt and killed..." Many, many others that have read this and may not have replied feel the same.


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## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

I have great empathy for the families of the people that lost their lives.

HOWEVER, while it was caused by mechanical failure, it wasn't a "sudden" failure.

As stated before, the flash gordon boat had steering problems at the previous stop. He also had steering problems leaving that stop.

These are not facts, these are observations of at least 6 people AT THE STOP.

It was not an accident. It was a collision.

How many of the sailors here would consider continuing a voyage with a questionable rudder?

It would be nice to ask flash why he continued, but he's dead, so is his wife, so is his daughter, So is his son-in-law, and so is the wife of another boatowner.

I do not have any sympathy at all for the individuals that recklessly put other people in harms way, without regard for any human life. In my opinion, thats exactly what happened here. If you want to skydive, knock yourself out. If you want me to strap my happy ass to you, you got another thing comin' .



resdog said:


> I'm appalled at the lack of empathy expressed in this thread. The offshore power boat community is deeply saddened by this accident if any of you would care to check in on the larger offshore power boat forums. I am both a sailor and a power boater, so I find this animosity between the two factions unfortunate.
> 
> Organized poker runs are not races although there are always individuals who are out to be the fastest boat on the lake, ocean, etc. Excessive speeds on a very crowded holiday weekend should not be permitted and it is up to the poker run organizers to police their participants for both speed and stupidity. I've seen rude and arrogant behavior equally displayed during sailing regattas.
> 
> ...


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Considering that one boat had serious steering problems... continuing to operate the boat, especially at high speed, is essentially committing suicide by boat. Continuing on was due to either extreme stupidity or arrogance on the part of the boat's captain. If his passengers chose not to get off a boat that was having mechanical issues, and about to be run at fairly high speeds, that was a choice they made.

I do have some sympathy for the captain of the second boat to some degree, as his wife was killed mainly through the actions of the first. However, he too had a choice not to continue. I would be interested in knowing whether he was aware of the problems that the first boat was having, and if so, why he decided to continue with the non-race.


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## windride27 (Jun 16, 2004)

*Oh Please!*

The way I see it, just the fact that these are power boats and not sail boats makes most of this group condemn these guys at the stake. Quite troubling really. Unfortunately it is human nature I guess. I must say that last month I was sailing on the San Juaquin river in the Sacramento Delta in California when a Poker run was going on and it was not making my sailing very comfortable for about 20 minutes until they all passed by. The wakes did knock the wind out of my main and Wow there was one the did pass a bit too close for comfort. I was glad it was finally over but 20 minutes is not a lot of time out of my day and it was cool to see. And Yes I would definately render assistance to one of them if the need arose without question. It also gave me something to remember about a great day sailing. Part of the beauty of life and sailing is the unknown that could come out of the blue. Otherwise life would get a bit boring. 
The Poker Run reminded me when I was on a fishing charter that ended up drifting into the rumbline of the oncomming Vallejo race regatta. You should have heard those fisherman cussing out those sailboats that were all flying their chutes and jibing within yards of our chartered fishing boat. Well such is life I guess, I was explaining to them all what was happening and why they were coming so close and what makes the boats work etc, etc. and by the time it was all over, about 40 minutes, all was well. 
Now if one of these boats was having a rudder or other problem I'd think that it be up to the skipper as to the proper handling of the situation, weather it be to dowse all sail and call the tow boat or to maybe dowse some sail or even rig a jury rig to get to the finish. After all that is why they are there is to get to the finish and the party if they can SAFELY. I know those fisherman would have helped out if there was a problem with one of those boats. 
In regards to the post stating that the two boats involved had a choice to continue on: My opinion is that Flash Gordon, the boat with mechanical steering problems was risking others if he decided to run too fast (If that is indeed the case). I could see him nursing the boat to the next port, maybe even keeping the boat just above planing speed where he could cut the throttles if getting too close to others ect. Of course he should try to get there on his own bottom if it can be done Safely. But the other boat involved? why would he NOT continue on? After all, that is why he was there. Maybe Flash Gordon was going slower and nursing the boat and it finally broke and swerved and the other boat could not dodge the other in time. We just don't know at this point, other than that it was an accident. MOST of these folks that run these boat are good knowledgeable, careing people. I know several, lets remember that they are one of us; if not only Boaters but Parents, Friends, Family, People that would help us in a bad situation, People with compasion. Talk is cheap but remember what you are saying. 
Crossing a street in a busy city is dangerous, one of those AH's in a car can take you out at any time by accident. Or maybe it is you behind the wheel during a sports car rally and you just lost a tie rod and took out a family of four. Everything we have fun doing includes some element of danger, maybe even to others. That is not gonna keep me from stepping off the sidewalk. My thoughts and prayers go out to all parties involved in the Texoma incident and their familys.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*a captain's responsibility*

I think Hellosailor (post #19 in this thread) put it well in saying that whoever pilots the boat has the responsibility to be aware of the impact zone of their boat relative to its speed, and cognizant of everyone/thing in that zone. Ideally, this zone would account for a catastrophic mechanical failure,allowing other boaters and innocent bystanders to be safe under all circumstances. When an incident happens like this, what does one say to the grieving family of the boat struck by the one with the failed steering? Somehow a shrug of the shoulders and an "Oh, well..." doesn't cut it.

I used to live on a lake in New England where a Cigarette boat whose pilot got lost in the dark struck the shore and became airborne and went into someone's home some 300 feet onshore. "Alcohol was involved..." I am as firm a believer in freedoms as the next guy, but not the freedom to endanger others' lives without a second thought.

A true professional never lets his equipment get out of the envelope of safety to others.

This incident will make me more vigilant as I sail on Texoma, although the collision avoidance capacity of a slow-moving sailboat is pretty limited. Hope to meet some of you sailboat lovers there in the near future!

Cheers and happy sailing to all.

Q


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## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

for me, its not the powerboats at all that are the issue. I love the look, the sound, the reverb of the motors. 

It is, for me, the gross disregard for safe boating practices. power, or sail. 
As I see it, the boat that had the steering problem had a responsiblity to himself, his crew, his family and every other boater on the lake to not continue. I don't know if it was moxie, macho, or attitude. The boat was not "limping home", the boats were traveling around 100 miles per hour. 
Pieces of both hulls have been found over 300 yards from the point of impact. 

thery were in "close proximity", and the flashgordon turned violently to port, crashing into the side of Nashville Catz.

here is some video of the poker run, (not mine) it shows the nashville catz boat as the second boat thru, and the flashgordon is the trhird boat thru... (poor quality and sound but you get the idea)


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## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

http://s115.photobucket.com/albums/...omaVideo/?action=view&current=ThePokerrun.flv


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

From that video clip and the descriptions I've read of the accident, it seems that most of the people participating in the "non-race" had a pretty low regard for the safety. They do not appear to be travelling all that far away from boats that are out fishing or there to watch the poker run. If the poker run is not a race, they should have some serious limits on how fast the boats can be travelling to help reduce the dangers to other people on the lake.

I generally don't have much compassion or empathy for people who put other lives at risk through their own arrogance, stupidity or foolishness. 

Given the cost of most of the powerboats involved in the poker run, most of the participants are fairly well off and that may have contributed to their sense of "we can do anything we want" entitlement. The lake is a public venue, not their private domain. They should respect the right of others to use the lake safely.


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## FormerAdministrator (Jan 10, 2000)

Our thoughts are prayers go out to all involved and affected by this tragedy.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

What is most tragic about this incident, is how unnecessary it was. Even without the indicated rudder problem, they were far beyond the limit of safety on a public waterway. I don't doubt this incident will lead to yet more regulation on our lives, because some can't be responsible enough to take care of their own.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Attention: hellosailor & sailingdog*

"But in the case of those guys? Anyone that can afford to burn $500-1000 on an afternoon beer run can afford to learn how boats work. What we see time and time again is guys who have more macho than brains, and I'd give you odds they were playing chicken to see who could get to the next point faster. That's just plain STUPID when you consider that boats at the speed simply CANNOT be controlled 100%, and any accident at that speed WILL BE FATAL."

It is ashame that you did not know these people, you're heart would sink. The Mineo's were good people that DID NOT DRINK LET ALONE WHILE BOATING and I know this to be FACT. I have heard the same about The Gibson's. THEY WERE NOT PLAYING CHICKEN and they were NOT "MACHO" by any means! They were good people doing what they loved to do! So put a flippin' sock in it! How dare you judge people you did not know! This was a horrific accident between 2 VERY experienced boaters. So before you go around dragging the dead through the mud, think about the possibilities! 
I was THERE when the bodies where brought in to my marina. I saw 2 dead and mangled, one mangled and gurgleing for her last breath, and one alive but did not look human. I wouldn't have cared who was macho, rich or even drunk...no one deserves what I saw. But the FACT is, they were ALL good people and they were experienced. They weren't drinking and they weren't playing games!People on that lake know when the poker run is and to stay out of the way. We enjoy watching these guys. With the exception of a few idiots in the run (VERY FEW) that drink and act arrogant...THESE PEOPLE WERE NOT THEM. Do you understand me????? I SAW THESE PEOPLE DYING! DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT????


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## Canibul (Sep 1, 2006)

Its a hard thing to see someone you know die violently. Its a hard thing to witness any death at all. Those who knew them, and their familes, have a tough time getting through this. Sympathy doesnt really help much, does it. empty words.
As for the rest of us, we can not prevent this. We can not change it. Its a fact that it happened.. immutable. All we can do is learn from it. If knowing the details of this stops one person from leaving the dock until everything is just right, maybe some good will filter down from it. Maybe another family will be spared the same sort of situation. I hope so.


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## ThunderFog (Aug 14, 2006)

*From the Beagle*

They were not boating safely.

Sounds like natural selection to me.

Signed,
Darwin


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## TejasSailer (Mar 21, 2004)

ThunderFog said:


> They were not boating safely.
> 
> Sounds like natural selection to me.
> 
> ...


Insensitive and inapproriate.


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## reflexx (Sep 10, 2006)

i'll make sure to point and laugh in the same way when one of you morons dies sailing by getting caught in a storm. then I'll say you weren't "boating safely". Gibson is my next door neighbor and a very experienced and professional boater. If anything, Mineo was at fault for continuing after mechanical trouble. Personally, I'd keep the offshore boats - offshore..., but no activity short of sitting inside a concrete house is 'safe'. You gonna go talk sh** about someone's grandpa that died falling off the toilet, too? He must have been crapping unsafely.

I drive race cars and we also take every precaution we can, but we know every time we go out there that there's a possibility of danger. Most kind of thrills carry some risk.

To be so unsensitive to such an incident is childish and moronic. I will be the first one to spit on your grave when lightning hits your mast when you're out 'boating safely'.


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## Canibul (Sep 1, 2006)

I would go spit on his grave, too, for that remark. But I aint standing in line again for anybody..


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## wlcoxe (Jan 26, 2001)

*Out of place...*

If "offshore" boats are kept "offshore" where there is room for them to run, isn't that the same as keeping 200 mph capable cars on the tracks where they can run relatively safely, and even the spectators know there are some risks involved? There are cigarette type boats that run on Fishers Island and Long Island Sounds, and they mainly keep away from other traffic. Regulations? In Connecticut, you are supposed to have a "Safe Boating Certificate". but it doesn't guarantee that the boater knows everything. Like a driver's license, it means a person has been exposed to the basics. Sorry for the tragedy and the trauma to the families and friends, and you cannot legislate judgement, and, we don't ever know everything.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I can not believe what I am reading. I found this forum by accident and can't believe the lack of sympathy. You guys are insensitive as hell. I have been powerboating for 15 years, I love it, the sound of the motor, the high speeds, it's a rush. If it is not your cup of tea, fine. Don't say we are reckless and act like we deserve to die.Hellosailor, you commented how Bruce and Gordon didn't know anything about boats, well let me tell you, Gordon built his himself, he was a retired pro. drag racer, he knew what he was doing. Bruce had his own crew, just like a race team, they both traveled around the country to poker runs and if they won gave their winnings back to the charity. They were all class acts. Alot more than I can say about the people on this site. Sailingdog, you are a f--king dumbass, a boat at 60 is not putting out any wake compared to one plowing not on plane. I have always been courtious to other boaters, I keep up with all laws in the states I go, and even took a safety class even though it was not required. But to the people making the bad remarks, I wish I knew where you boated because I would show you a fly by at 70, then I would come plowing at about 20 feet and knock everything on the floor including your sorry asses.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Another thing, some of you keep assuming there was alcohol involved, no there was not. They were non drinkers. Every poker run I have been in does not allow alcohol to even be in the boats, if you are caught with it you are disqualified. Lets stop assuming, when you assume you make an ass out of u and me.


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## pigslo (Nov 22, 2004)

*a couple of observations*



carriejones2003 said:


> People on that lake know when the poker run is and to stay out of the way. We enjoy watching these guys.
> 
> A bit arrogant wouldn't you say? It is a good thing that people know when to stay out of a few ciggarette boaters way isn't it. I am afraid that part of your post only reinforced the idea that ciggarette boats think they have more rights to the water.
> 
> That being said I would ask all of my fellow blowhards on this board to just shuttup for now until the facts are in. You blowhards know who you are. You post on every thread just regardless of haveing any contribution just to see your own words in print.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

923 said:


> Sailingdog, you are a f--king dumbass, a boat at 60 is not putting out any wake compared to one plowing not on plane. I have always been courtious to other boaters, I keep up with all laws in the states I go, and even took a safety class even though it was not required. But to the people making the bad remarks, *I wish I knew where you boated because I would show you a fly by at 70, then I would come plowing at about 20 feet and knock everything on the floor including your sorry asses.*


This is exactly the attitude that some powerboaters have that make them exceptionally rude people to deal with. Even though a boat on plane at 60 doesn't make as large a wake as one not on plane or just dropping off of plane, it does make a significant wake. You're an @$$hole for thinking that something moving at 60 knots isn't going to disturb the water.

The real issue I had with this particular incident is that _*one boat clearly had a serious mechanical problem, yet they decided to continue on even in spite of that fact, without taking the proper precautions.*_


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## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

923,*
" I wish I knew where you boated because I would show you a fly by at 70, then I would come plowing at about 20 feet and knock everything on the floor including your sorry asses."*

wow, all I can say is... wow... its attitudes like this that cause problems. here is something you should look at , does anyone see anything out of whack....

I love the poker runs, I love the boats. We all mourn the families loss. It has been determined that booze WAS NOT A FACTOR.

The investigation is continuing.

this is NOT from the day of the event.




please look at seconds :04 thru :09

heres another, NOT from the event.




I don't know the date or time of this video, but pay particular attention to seconds 1:04 thru 1:06, 2:08 thru 2:20

*
but this IS from the day of the event*





and so is this 




look at seconds :15 thru :19


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## Canibul (Sep 1, 2006)

Great attitude. Just goes to show that the mental capacity to start an engine and turn a wheel is at the very very lowest end of any perceived seamanship.


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## captnnero (Jul 19, 2006)

*What'd he say ?*



923 said:


> ...Sailingdog, you are a f--king dumbass, a boat at 60 is not putting out any wake compared to one plowing not on plane. I have always been courtious to other boaters, I keep up with all laws in the states I go, and even took a safety class even though it was not required. But to the people making the bad remarks, I wish I knew where you boated because I would show you a fly by at 70, then I would come plowing at about 20 feet and knock everything on the floor including your sorry asses.


Is it just me or does any one else have doubts about this "always been courtious to other boaters" thing ?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

captnnero said:


> Is it just me or does any one else have doubts about this "always been courtious to other boaters" thing ?


I wonder why you would think that... LOL


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Update on the Texoma accident... According to one eyewitness, the boats involved* were travelling at around 100 mph.* If that is true, then there is a lot of culpability on the part of both of the boats, and _especially in the case of the one that was having steering difficulties just prior to the poker run. _

* If a poker run is not a race, *_why were these two boats going at a speed that can not be considered in any way safe on a relatively crowded lake? _

I don't care what certain powerboaters on this site say, *because a boat running at nearly 100 mph is a serious hazard to everyone around it.*..and _even the most efficient planing hull design is going to have a serious wake at those speeds._


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

sailingdog said:


> Update on the Texoma accident... According to one eyewitness, the boats involved* were travelling at around 100 mph.* If that is true, then there is a lot of culpability on the part of both of the boats, and _especially in the case of the one that was having steering difficulties just prior to the poker run. _
> 
> *If a poker run is not a race, *_why were these two boats going at a speed that can not be considered in any way safe on a relatively crowded lake? _
> 
> I don't care what certain powerboaters on this site say, *because a boat running at nearly 100 mph is a serious hazard to everyone around it.*..and _even the most efficient planing hull design is going to have a serious wake at those speeds._


Agreed!...we we're racing last weekend when a fleet of cigarette style boats went flying past. I assume they were headed to some offshore oil field for re-fueling. All I could think of is what would have happened had they miss-judged the distance to our fleet? One little flick of the wrist would have done a lot of harm.


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## Shack (Sep 5, 2006)

Wow!! I can't believe I read this whole thread! Have to chime in.

*To the all the screwballs out there . . .*

Don't include me or my family in _your _personal fantasy.
That's why I have my own boat. Let me die my own way.


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## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

the latest is, they may "never know" but they've got a coastie onsite now thats taking over. 
http://www.newsok.com/article/2846366


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*I am Sick*

I was at Lake Texoma the day of the Accident and the victims were my good friends. I was searching the internet to see if any new details had been determined about the wreck when I stubbled across your distrubing website. I am a "idoit" powerboater and after reading your forum I understand why there is on ongoing "misunderstanding" between Sailboaters and powerboaters. But before you judge all of us let me shed some light on some facts about poker runs. And yes as with any group of entusiasts you are going to have some "idoits" including sailboaters as well. Poker Runs are set up in many different formats but never are they a race period (I understand that there are some people that do showoff and I am not opposed to regulating speeds on a lake and not having them on holiday weekends). You can enter most poker runs in a ski boat, jet ski, fishing boat and yes a sail boat (did you ever think to ask???????) in fact before this paticular poker run the rules stated that even if you did not make all of the stops you could still play your hand and that NO ALCOHOL could be consumed up to 6 hours before the event and during the event by the driver. Punishment being disqualification. Are you saying that sailboaters do not consume alcohol on the lake?? (I know it is only those go fast idiots) Poker runs are done in cars, motorcycles & boats. I need to ask if any of you have ever sped in your car? What about on a Holiday weekend? Well, Even those of you shaking your head NO I sure have maybe even unknowling....Well, let me tell you you were in dangering "other lives" on the road. Should you have hurt your self or an unsuspecting bystander would it be fair to tell your family that you deserved to die because you were an idiot?? Come on have some compassion. An accident is an accident. I know that I have probably opened a can of worms here and that was not my intention. I only want to say that a tragedy is a tragedy and I hope as a person that enjoys the lake that another tragedy does not occur in your community or ours.


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## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

lakelover,

Yes, it was indeed a tragedy and I'm sure that everyone here mourns the loss of life. 

I love those powerboats and am in true awe of the engineering and construction of those machines. 

Please understand that we ARE in the same community, we all love the water and the time spent on it. We have more in common than not. As sailboaters we are interested in the journey, the movement of the boat thru the water. Some of us are even interested in wrenching the last half knot of speed out of our watercraft. 

Please go back in this thread a bit and look at the videos of the days event, and other events on that lake. You'll notice no pfd's, high rates of speed and some unsafe boating practices. Consider that in a car, on a road, you have some "control" of others actions. For example, on a highway, you have some general inclination about which direction the other motorists are heading. Plus, you have a small annoying feature called brakes. 

In a boat, travelling at 150 FEET PER SECOND, you cannot predict others direction of travel. You do DO NOT have control to turn 30 degrees to port or starboard to avoid a potential obstacle within that half-football field. 

Given the time frame of the non-race poker run, a sailboater, jet-ski, paddleboat, pontoon-boat, could not have entered and completed the number of stops required in the time frame required. (to say nothing of the bridges we can't get under.) This is not an issue, however, don't throw up red herrings. You and I both know that the amount of money won at the event is secondary to the amount of cash that changes hands due to the "first card" "second card" and "lowest ET" side bets between the pilots and crafts. 

What is at issue is that everyone on the water that day, and every day has a responsibilty to themselves, their crew and other boats on the water for safe and sane operation of their craft. 

As you may know there are statements from numerous marina workers at the stops and spectators at the same stops that one of the boats was having steering problems as they came into, and problems leaving the dock of one of the stops. 

Speed alone does not kill, speed and reckless behavior, and/or mechanical failure often does.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Cardiacpaul, 

I have done poker runs all over the united states and have never witnessed any side betting going on. In fact we all joke amongest oursleves that we are simply buying an expensive T-shirt (they come with our hands) nobody really goes out there to win it is for the enjoyment of socialing with other boaters and on that particular run you did not have to go to any of the stops to play your cards. Trust me when I say that it is a rarity that a boat go over 100 mph (and again I am not opposed to regulating the speed on lakes for those that do). The rest of the pack was running at about half that speed including my boat. I completely agree with your statement that it is the captains responsibility for the safety of their crew and other boaters. I actually have not heard the statements that he was having steering problems BEFORE the accident and some of that can be hear say we may never know. It is very unfortunate that unsafe boating goes on on any lake. I hope that all boaters do get the message and start to practice safety first.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

All else aside, the main factor here is that NO boat should be travelling at those kinds of speeds unless on a closed and well marked course. PERIOD. No ifs, and or buts, about it.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

*rude and arrogant behavior*



resdog said:


> I'm appalled at the lack of empathy expressed in this thread. The offshore power boat community is deeply saddened by this accident if any of you would care to check in on the larger offshore power boat forums. I am both a sailor and a power boater, so I find this animosity between the two factions unfortunate.
> 
> Organized poker runs are not races although there are always individuals who are out to be the fastest boat on the lake, ocean, etc. Excessive speeds on a very crowded holiday weekend should not be permitted and it is up to the poker run organizers to police their participants for both speed and stupidity. I've seen rude and arrogant behavior equally displayed during sailing regattas.
> 
> ...


The animosity ain't about rude and arrogant behavior.

Its about the ruin-your-day, scare-you-sh**less, let-me-tramp-all-over-you, and put-YOUR-life-at-risk operation of high-speed motorboats, and even more, put-ALL-your-kids-lives-at-risk behavior. I personally cannot think of any other activity I experience as a father where I am more keenly aware that my children's lives are being needlesly put at risk by clowns who think their dangerous operation of their boats is OK. It is not Ok.
A near accident in an auto due to another's carelessness ain't as bad, because its unlikely the other party has been purposeful. When one, or the worst, two of these testosterone machines runs down your sailboat's course, where you hear them coming before you see them, and then have to wait minutes until they arrive ALONGSIDE and blur by thirty yards away, any sensible person is in terror, because its only Gods grace that they didn't screw up THIS time, and pass THROUGH you and over your kids, rather than BY you. All that's needed is a moment's distraction.

Last week was an annual local regatta http://hullyc.org/2006_results.html - 100+ sailboats participated. During the first beat, a line of three cigarette boats arrived and made circles around and through the pack of sailboats at what I guess was 50+ knots. On their second cicle they crossed me by about two boat lengths. Fortunately I was steering, so that by the time I realized how close they were coming, I couldn't get one of the SS Lewmar winch handles into my hand until they were out of reach...

I hate that behavior. It dangerous to you and me. It's way beyond rude and arrogant, there's nothing like it in sailing.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

How can you say that a near miss in an auto accident is not as bad because it is not purposeful. Powerboaters do not go out with the intention of running over sail boaters....AN ACCIDENT IS AN ACCIDENT and more people die in automobile accidents everyday then in boating accidents. What about the person that is leaving the bar and they get into their automobile and run down an innocent family. What about a person that drives in excess of a 100 MPH toward your family car. Every day people put themselves at risk. Let me point out that on our Lake a sail boater had words with a Pontoon boat and because he was drunk in front of his Family (wife and a child) he pulled out a gun and fired it at the pontoon boat that had another family on board and he was arressted for being drunk and firing the gun. Let me ask you is it safe to have a gun on a vessel with a child on board? is it safe to be drunk with your family on board? Would you call this "safe boating" Give me a break. Quit throwing stones. None of us should stereo type anybody. There are bad apples in every group.


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## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

I agree that the animosity needs to stop. period. We all have common concerns and values. I only take issue with one thing.

An accident is an unforseen incident. A collision, however....is quite another. 

Let us agree to do what we can to promote safe boating, and lets all go out and enjoy the water! 
(I'm really only jealous that I can't raft up at north island) LOL (tongue firmly in cheek)


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## yotphix (Aug 18, 2006)

Cheers Cardiac! RIP texacoma boaters. The rest of us...lets go boating, respectfully!


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## ThunderFog (Aug 14, 2006)

Let's put some things into perspective. A boat, on a lake, traveling 100 miles an hours is like driving a dragster throught the middle of town at 100 miles an hour. Yes the dragster can stop and has some control but the lake is probable not as crowded as the middle of town. 

Last I checked Dragsters are not legal on the road.... for some reason Hmmm.

So don't compare driving a boat at 100 miles an hour on a lake to exceeding the speed limit in a car. I have been know to do 5 over the limit but please don't compare my sense of control to the boat moving at 100.

I do give Darwin awards to sailors too. No one is safe from that label. When you do something stupid, ya get the label. I may even deserve one myself oneday. It happens.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

NO Sympathy here, how about some empathy? I can definitely live without open headers. More and more areas are outlawing loud boats, and when i think about loud, obnoxious is usually not far behind. Lets work with the facts though, and from what i can see there is really not much to go on. I would have to say from looking at the pictures of their equipment, these people were serious. The four occupants of "Flash Gordon" were a mother, father, daughter, and future son in law, and were reportedly killed on impact. "Nashville Catz" was a husband and wife. Do you think he will ever stop thinking, "If only I had done this, or if only I had done that, she would still be alive" . Both drivers were reported to be professional and experienced. They were all living in the fast lane, as far as I know that is not a criminal offense. Time and circumstance happen to all of us, let us not be quick to judge. Why not give them the benefit of the doubt, maybe they were some of the nicest people you would ever want to meet. I dont think any of us are ready to check out, and we will never be prepared for the death of a loved one. I'm going to pray for the survivor, and for the families of those who lost loved ones. And i know that there are some brothers and sisters out there who know what i'm talking about. I appreciate the post and thanks for letting me share my thoughts.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Dpat...dead thread from 8 months ago! Welcome aboard!!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

camaraderie-i guess they don't call me junior for nothing- thanks


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

dpat said:


> Both drivers were reported to be professional and experienced. They were all living in the fast lane, as far as I know that is not a criminal offense.


This was in response to a post from eight months ago...

The facts are that the two were racing at high speed, endangering others around them, and one of the boats *was known to have a mechanical problem with the steering not long before the accident occurred*.

_The accident's description makes it very likely that the steering problem that had been known was a strong contributing factor to the deaths of all involved_... You really should not go out and buzz around a highly-crowded lake in a high-power speedboat at high speeds if the boat has a steering problem. Doing so is not the actions of a professional, who should have known better.

Darwin's right... and these guys went out and won themselves a Darwin award... however they took some relatively innocent bystanders in the other boat with them.


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## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

As far as I know, there never was a "yup, thats what did it" moment. The Coasties and both states looked long and hard, there are many whispers, but nobody wants to take a stand. 
Oh well.

Take a look at some of the videos from the event on youtube.

YouTube - texoma poker run II

You will see flash buzz by within 20 ft at a very high rate of speed. (its been awhile but I think something like 5-7 seconds from in sight to out of frame.) IF a tuber, or a kid on a sea-doo, or an old guy in a jonboat decided to go across, well, we're glad none of that happened.

I don't mind them living in the fast lane at all. When their behavior endangers me and mine then I get cranky.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

_Perchance he for whom this bell tolls, may be so ill, as that he knows not it tolls for him; and perchance I may think myself so much better than I am, as that they who are about me...may have caused it to toll for me...and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee._

John Doane


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

To be or not to be.....

Isaac Einstein Churchill


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## bwalker42 (Jul 11, 2003)

Breaks my heart

What can one say in a situation like this? It's so easy to see both sides. In spite of how terrible this was, (8 mos ago). IMO It is an incident that will echo throughout the sailing/boating community for some time, and should be an excellent opportunity to reach out to other boaters who may not be as obviously educated as others. I say teaching one another is a form of caring about one another. There is no law against compassion.

Perspective..

My motto is better safe than sorry. My dad used to tell me "Be good Brenda, ignorance of the law is no excuse." But even in all my trying to be good, I still fall, I still make mistakes, and I still do my best to educate myself. (I love you dad!)

Would be interested as to how the sole survivor is doing, and as to whether there have been any new laws in place concerning this since so many valuable points have been raised.

Remembering Dale Earnhardt SR, loved him too. 

Curious to know what would cause a seasoned boater to overcome his conscience. What ever it was, you can't change the past, but you can sure learn from it. And help other people along the way.


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## Boasun (Feb 10, 2007)

You will find that many states here in the U.S. are requiring a minimum level of boat education. Which isn't even close to what I teach to those who want the 100/200 Ton Licenses. But at lease it is a start. The first step to really acquiring your Master's license for the class vessels you are sailing on.


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## bwalker42 (Jul 11, 2003)

Hey Boasun,
Thanks, I actually did that a few yrs ago I'm really glad to know there are guys like you..
(hugs)


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Brenda,
Thanks for the thoughtful post.

While doing an internship with USCG-MSO, Detroit I was involved in the investigation of a similar accident. A salesman, presumably experienced, was out on a test drive of a go-fast boat prior to customer delivery on Lake St Clair. He encountered some difficulty in switching over fuel tanks, was looking down, came off plane, got the fuel flowing again, and, just as he came back on plane tore the stern-sheets out of a 20' Chris Craft runabout. The two men on the Chris saw him coming and dove over the side to escape. The Labrador Retriever with them did not and lost his tail via prop damage. The Chris Craft was pretty much a total loss, while the Check Mate had a few scratches and bent props.

The inherent danger of this type vessel is that it does not come up on plane until around 30 mph. Given the design parameters, that makes for a significant blind spot dead ahead. On a crowded lake, such as St Clair, that can be, and is, a serious safety risk. I would venture to say that the operators of such craft have a greater burden of responsibility to ensure they are operating safely due to the design of their vessels.

Most of my sailing is done on a lake that is about one third the size of the most desirable sailing lake in my area. The sole reason I sail where I do is the lack of congestion. I can only be responsible for my actions, and the less boat congestion there is, the fewer boaters I have to be worried about. I am not in favor of licensing boaters as I view the only purpose of licensing to be a post-facto method of punishment. I see little in the licensing procedures, or the manifest results on the road, to indicate that licensing of motor vehicle drivers has any impact on safety whatsoever. The whole thing is a damn feel-good joke.

The only bigger joke on the topic is that, "speed kills'. Speed has nothing to do with it, per se. Stupidity kills. Ignorance runs a close second. 100 mph in a M-B 450 SEL on 'V' rated tires is quite comfortable and, in my view, safe. 100 mph in my F-150 pick 'em up with my recap specials I've been meaning to get the nails out of is stupid. Either one, with an inexperienced driver behind the wheel, defacto ignorant, is troublesome.

Asking the question, "how will my actions affect others" is the answer to the first question on the maturity examination. Maturity is no longer stylish. Too bad.


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## equitiman (Jul 1, 2004)

*Sympathy for the dead...*

I just want to bridge the gap between those who say "you should have nothing but sympathy for the dead" and those who say "they got what they deserve".

One of my best friends died a year ago in an avalanche. He was skiing off-trail and ignored the numerous signs and verbal warnings over the resort loudspeakers that there was a high avalanche danger that day. I don't want to sound cold-hearted, but while I was very upset about his death I couldn't feel too sorry for him since he spent his whole life taking what I perceived to be stupid risks. In fact, at his funeral the recurring theme was "well we always told him he was going to kill himself one day".

Was I sad that he was dead and did I feel sorry for his family? Of course. Would I expect others not to berate him for getting himself killed doing something stupid and putting other lives at risk? Of course not.

Death is always a tragedy to someone, but I think you can respect the dead and still be critical towards the poor decisions they made that lead to their death.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Speed Intoxication*

It's for real. The need to speed. I can't drive 55. For some, it's insatiable. For others it's a bore.

For me, unless it's somehow related to sailing I really pay little attention to it.

How about the motor boater that ran into the side of a Great Lakes freighter in the fog piloting a 36' Sea Ray on a plane? When asked what was he thinking he was reported to have replied, "how did I know that there was a freighter there? "

How about the motor boater that ran out of fuel after filling up both tanks in Mackinaw City and running just past Harrisville before both of the engines quit in a storm with both fuel gages still showing full after 150 miles on the water?

How about the sailor that let his wife lose her finger as she was suppose to lasso the dock cleat to stop the boat making it easier for him to stop?

How about the sailor in ship "Garbonzo" that set "otto" for stony point after a fun filled night of pirate tomfoolury at Marion Island, fell asleep at the helm, and ran aground directly on stony point?

Now we have a vessel making way at 100 mph with a known and confirmed steering problem, slaughtering innocent lives?

You just can't fix a stupid person, but you can seperate them from their freedom, and or assests.


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## skrap1r0n (Mar 6, 2007)

I haven't read all the posts, but I do want to comment on the crotch rocket comments on page one. Not all sport bikers are squids. In fact a lot of us detest them moreso than the average public because they give the rest of us a really bad name.

I am an avid sportbiker. When not riding on the street, I will try to take it to the track to really wind it out. As for street riding, we will send people home from a ride if they are acting like that or show up underdressed. We call the bozo's on bikes squids for a reason. Squid is an acronym for Stupid Quick Underdressed Immintently Dead.

At any rate, not all bikers are like that, some of us have a lot of time and money invested in our machines and our gear and treat it with respect.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

It's the old argument of "your right to swing your arms wildly ends at my face". 

We seem to allow and to even encourage some dubious behaviours in the name of recreation that we don't allow in our working lives. I think maybe the solution might be this: If you buy a fast car or boat or motorcycle, you sign a waiver to all health care and enshrine the ability of survivors to make your family indentured servants should you be found guilty of being a ******** operator. It's a "weregild" for the new millennium!

Of course, if you hit a rock and kill only yourself, your estate will only be charged the cost of environmental remediation and your kin will be issued a Darwin Award in your name.


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## skrap1r0n (Mar 6, 2007)

Valiente said:


> If you buy a fast car or boat or motorcycle, you sign a waiver to all health care and enshrine the ability of survivors to make your family indentured servants should you be found guilty of being a ******** operator.


We already pay liability insurance. Besides, define "fast". Is that fast overall or fast compared to what? Compared to an airplane my motorcycle is slow. Compared to a canoe, my sailboat is fast. Compared to other bikes the same size, mine is average. My boat can be faster if someone else that knows more is sailing it.

Fast is very subjective.

FWIW, my input on this matter, (the crash) is that it is tragic. I have little sympathy for the ones making the decision to run that fast on the lake, but the passengers etc that were killed make it a very sad incident. It was a stupid, avoidable mistake.


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## Kernix (Oct 5, 2006)

Took the words out of my mouth - the 2 drivers - A-holes - the passengers - feel bad for them - the families definitely feel bad for them - but it's like on the highway - there's always a jerk who swerves in and out of lanes at a high speed and no turn signal - I always hope those SOBs lose control and plummet over an enbankment - the reason why: they are risking everyone else's life who is on that highway at the same time.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Kernix-

As passengers, they had a say in how the boat they are on is operated, unless the captain was named Bligh. They also had a choice to get on board or stay on the dock...

If you're on a boat, and you have an issue with the way it is being operated... SPEAK UP... it may save your life...


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Valiente said:


> It's the old argument of "your right to swing your arms wildly ends at my face".
> 
> We seem to allow and to even encourage some dubious behaviours in the name of recreation that we don't allow in our working lives. I think maybe the solution might be this: If you buy a fast car or boat or motorcycle, you sign a waiver to all health care and enshrine the ability of survivors to make your family indentured servants should you be found guilty of being a ******** operator. It's a "weregild" for the new millennium!
> 
> Of course, if you hit a rock and kill only yourself, your estate will only be charged the cost of environmental remediation and your kin will be issued a Darwin Award in your name.


Darwin awards only go to those who don't have children..


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## Kernix (Oct 5, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> Kernix-
> 
> As passengers, they had a say in how the boat they are on is operated, unless the captain was named Bligh. They also had a choice to get on board or stay on the dock...
> 
> If you're on a boat, and you have an issue with the way it is being operated... SPEAK UP... it may save your life...


True - unless the passenger doesn't know about boating and the skipper ensures him\her "It's okay."


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Kernix said:


> True - unless the passenger doesn't know about boating and the skipper ensures him\her "It's okay."


Considering that boating was such a big part of their lives, I doubt that these particular people would be able to claim such ignorance.


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## leffklm (Apr 9, 2007)

sailingdog said:


> Darwin awards only go to those who don't have children..


Nice call SD--I hadn't thought of that before.

Some people think you are too particular, but I for one appreciate your attention to details.


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## equitiman (Jul 1, 2004)

*Darwin Award*

My old college track coach actually got an honorable mention in the Darwin Awards. He only received an honorable mention cus he didn't get himself killed. The funny thing is that we didn't know about it until one day we were reading the Darwin Awards and found one about a dude that went to the same college and had the same last name as our coach. At first we were like "wow what a crazy coincidence" and then we realized that it must be the same person. We asked him about it and he confessed to us that it was him. But then he made us swear that we wouldn't tell anyone (he was quite embarassed).

Anyway, the award he won was due to a bet he made with his friends to see how close he could get his face to a passing train (his defense was that he was really drunk at the time...). He wound up in the hospital but actually didn't have any permanent scars or such from the train-to-face impact.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

bwalker42 said:


> Remembering Dale Earnhardt SR, loved him too.
> 
> Curious to know what would cause a seasoned boater to overcome his conscience. What ever it was, you can't change the past, but you can sure learn from it. And help other people along the way.


Unfortunately, there is a major difference between the tragedy that happened with Dale Earnhardt Sr. and the events on Lake Texoma.

Dale Earnhardt Sr. was racing in a proper racing venue, in a car that was kitted out with the proper safety gear and had no known mechanical issues, and no innocent bystanders or spectators were at any real risk.

The people in the two speedboats were not in a proper racing venue, one of the boats had a known mechanical issue at a time just prior to the racing, and the spectators were definitely at risk. Just by the grace of God did they not hit a pontoon boat full of a family with little children.


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## bwalker42 (Jul 11, 2003)

sailingdog said:


> Unfortunately, there is a major difference between the tragedy that happened with Dale Earnhardt Sr. and the events on Lake Texoma.
> 
> Dale Earnhardt Sr. was racing in a proper racing venue, in a car that was kitted out with the proper safety gear and had no known mechanical issues, and no innocent bystanders or spectators were at any real risk.
> 
> The people in the two speedboats were not in a proper racing venue, one of the boats had a known mechanical issue at a time just prior to the racing, and the spectators were definitely at risk. Just by the grace of God did they not hit a pontoon boat full of a family with little children.


Yes Baby,
That's right! more differences than similarities.... In that I totally agree with you. 
I believe that there should be tougher regulations and education where these superfast types of vessels are concerned.... 
The problem is that these are people who died, people are valuable. And I'm having a hard time thinking that a man of this caliber would do anything intentionally to harm anyone much less himself and his family who put their trust in him.
Therefore...I wonder what would cause him to override his conscience.

And I believe that regardless, he and his family, survivors and non survivors of this collision/accident, as well as friends who loved them should have gotten a little bit more respect, sympathy, and empathy. 
(After all.. wasn't there a wedding that was supposed to take place that never happened?)
As I did take the time to read this whole thread and found their friends that loved them were looking for information. Broken down with overwhelming grief, looking for support from another boating community, agreeing that there are issues that need to be changed regarding these types of vessels of which they love, and found some very hard feelings when it was a time to embrace them.

However, I am not here to change your mind about that, even though I wish I could.

Still I am very thankful and grateful to God there were no other casualties in this terrible collision/accident.
Hoping that stricter regulations, especially regarding education for the owners/operators, and places of operation, have been put into place regarding these types of vessels seeing that they have the ability to wipe someone out before they know what's happened. (children)
Again,
I am not here to argue.. 
Kisses baby,
Brenda


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## Kernix (Oct 5, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> Unfortunately, there is a major difference between the tragedy that happened with Dale Earnhardt Sr. and the events on Lake Texoma.
> 
> Dale Earnhardt Sr. was racing in a proper racing venue, in a car that was kitted out with the proper safety gear and had no known mechanical issues, and no innocent bystanders or spectators were at any real risk.
> 
> The people in the two speedboats were not in a proper racing venue, one of the boats had a known mechanical issue at a time just prior to the racing, and the spectators were definitely at risk. Just by the grace of God did they not hit a pontoon boat full of a family with little children.


But who was at fault - was it both? I'd say know - I'd say one less experienced person made the wrong turn or it was the boat with the mech. issue - if either is the case, then the other people in the other boat should not be trashed so to speak - their joy is outrageous speeds in motor boats - I know I wouldn't enjoy that at all - but to each his own.


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## bwalker42 (Jul 11, 2003)

sailaway21 said:


> Brenda,
> Thanks for the thoughtful post.
> 
> While doing an internship with USCG-MSO, Detroit I was involved in the investigation of a similar accident. A salesman, presumably experienced, was out on a test drive of a go-fast boat prior to customer delivery on Lake St Clair. He encountered some difficulty in switching over fuel tanks, was looking down, came off plane, got the fuel flowing again, and, just as he came back on plane tore the stern-sheets out of a 20' Chris Craft runabout. The two men on the Chris saw him coming and dove over the side to escape. The Labrador Retriever with them did not and lost his tail via prop damage. The Chris Craft was pretty much a total loss, while the Check Mate had a few scratches and bent props.
> ...


Bravo!
I love the way you say this!

"I would venture to say that the operators of such craft have a greater responsibility to ensure they are operating safely due to the design of their vessels."

I so agree.
Excellent Post!


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## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

Both of the boaters involved were "professionals" at this, one was the promoter of the event. They both had many years of experience in the operation and maintence of these craft. The implication that the people involved were not skilled is troublesome. However, had one not "taken the chance" all would be alive today.

These craft are big ticket items, and the operators are not flybynighters. These events are held across the country, with very large purses.

some pictures and related gear are here
cardiacpaul/speedboat - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting

I believe that while very tragic, the collision was caused by operator error, (not maintaining a safe distance, speed not reasonable and prudent) and mechanical failure (conjecture, no smoking gun has been found).


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Well said CP.


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## bwalker42 (Jul 11, 2003)

Does anyone here remember what happened on Clear Lake with Dan Pastorini?? Think back.....


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

You mean this:



> On May 22, 1977, Pastorini was involved in a drag boat accident during a race on Lake Mizell in Liberty County. Texas. The boat veered onto the shore and hit a crowd of spectators after its engine failed, causing its automatic steering mechanism to fail. 3 people were injured and 2 people were killed including Sherry Machell Gaskins, 10 and Herean Dale Johnson, 33.


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## bwalker42 (Jul 11, 2003)

*Wow!*



sailingdog said:


> You mean this:
> 
> The boat veered onto the shore and hit a crowd of spectators after its engine failed, causing its automatic steering mechanism to fail.


Yes, Sailingdog! Thanks! I thought it was Clear Lake, but then I was only 16 at the time..
However, it does bring to light some extremely similar details to the collision/accident on L.Texoma IMHO.

Sailingdog.. you are an angel!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Glad to help Sea Angel... 

One major difference that I can see in that particular case though. I don't believe it was known prior to the accident that the boat was having mechanical problems. In the case of Lake Texoma, one of the two speedboats involved in the crash was having mechanical issues earlier in the day... yet chose to go on racing in spite of them, at least from what accounts I've read.


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## timebandit (Sep 18, 2002)

Fast is fast and slow is slow and never the twain should meet. People who go fast have minds that work in a compleatly different spectrum than those that go slow. I'm guessing that the two boats were going side by side when the accident happened. Weather one boat turned sharply in front of the other or one verred away and came back, who knows. I am sure they did not ram each other at nighty degrees from a distance. 
I like slow and I like fast but it takes me a little to get my brain up to speed but I can slow it down to sailing speed anytime.


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## sharkbait (Jun 3, 2003)

1


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

sharkbait said:


> It has been said many times on this site that multi hulls are dangerous


Exactly how are multihulls dangerous??? Speed boats, driven at excessive speeds on crowded lakes are dangerous... multihulls are at least as safe as monohull sailboats.


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## skrap1r0n (Mar 6, 2007)

timebandit said:


> Fast is fast and slow is slow and never the twain should meet.


speed it relative, but stupidity knows no bounds. You may have a fast sailboat, but it will be slow compared to an old beater car. The fastest car is slow compared to a passenger plane.

Put an idiot behind any of those and it becomes dangrous.


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