# Great Minds Choose Smaller Boats?



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I've noticed that some people on this site seem to discount the idea that a smaller boat can be the ideal boat for a person. I guess it has a lot to do with what you got the boat for. 

If you want a floating condo, with all the pleasures and conveniences of modern life, including the microwave oven, the big screen TV, and the washer and dryer, you can't do that on a smaller boat. 

If you want to live aboard a boat and run a business from it, a larger boat may make sense. You need to have living space as well as office space. I know a man who runs a very successful company from an office on a 34' catamaran... where he lives and has his office. 

However, if you want to sail to far away places, and live a life that is based around sailing, a smaller boat may make a lot more sense.

Look at what boats some very well respected sailboat designers chose. Many chose smaller boats for their personal sailing craft. 

Capt. Nat Herreshoff designed for himself the 26' "Alerion III". When Capt. Nat was in his seventies and living in Florida, he sailed a 30' K/CB "Pleasure" 

Joel White sailed a Bridges Point 24 named "Ellisha" after his grandaughter

Phil Rhodes sailed a wooden 25 footer named "Nixie"

Carl Alberg sailed a 26' Pearson Commander named after his wife "Alma"

Bob Perry sails a 26' Cirrus called "Perrywinkle"

Part of the problem with a lot of the mass media is that they are driven by advertising dollars...and the larger boats are where all the money is. Look at the pages of Blue Water Sailing, Cruising World, and those magazines, it would seem that you can't sail across an ocean in a boat smaller than 40' in length. 

Part of the problem is that many people confuse cruising with chartering. Most long-term cruising sailors I know have tried to simplify their lives and have gotten out of the rat race, and the rat race's need to compete with the Joneses.

However, I believe you can go and do a lot of sailing, and even sail long distances in relatively small boats. In fact, this was in fact the norm until not too long ago. 

Look at Tania Aebi, who sailed a Contessa 26, Donna Lange, who is in a Southern Cross 28, Pat Henry, who was in a Southern Cross 31, have all circumnavigated the globe... okay, Donna's not quite done yet, but she's in the home stretch... The Pardeys sailed aboard two different boats, Talesin was less than 30' LOD, and Serrafyn was less than 25' LOD. Webb Chiles circumnavigated four times, once in a Drascombe Lugger, but that's an extreme example IMHO. 

John Vigor's book, 20 Small Sailboats to Take You Anywhere, lists boats all smaller than 35' LOA. Bigger isn't necessarily better... if your goal is to sail and cruise for as long as possible... then a smaller boat may make far more sense. 

A smaller boat costs less to buy....leaving you more money for the cruising kitty. 

A smaller boat costs less to maintain....making the money in the cruising kitty last longer. 

A smaller boat often can go more places than a larger boat. Bigger boats don't gunkhole well.

The small boat is often easier to repair. The hardware needed on a smaller boat is often simpler and more reliable than that on a larger boat. A manual windlass is going to have fewer maintenance problems than an electric or hydraulic windlass; an electric winch is going to need more maintenance than a manual winch; the electrical system is often far simpler, and require less work to repair; stepping the mast often can be done without a crane, and so on.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

While there is much to be said for "Go small, Go now", or even small boats in general, I think, that ultimately, you have to get the boat that speaks to you. There is a lot that goes into the equation though that in a sense, has nothing to do with boats, or their sailing ablilities.


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## skrap1r0n (Mar 6, 2007)

since I am a complete newbie to this, I would like to chime in here...

I have a specific goal in mind. I waould like to take some time off, and cirgumnavigate specifically, spending a bit of time in/around austrailia, new zealand, and around Europe/med-north sea.

I am in no way experienced enough nor financially able to do this now, but my long range goal is 10 years. That gives me enough time to learn, get certifications and save for a boat and travelling expenses (I am hoping sattelite internet is more accessable so I can work on the trip)

At any rate, back to the topic, in todays market, I could pick up a used Beneteau 38' for around 60-80k $USD. Now anything larger than a 40, in my mind, would be too much. But I am currently in a Catalina 25 and it's rather cramped for extended periods of time. I am average height, 6'1" and I would like to be able to stand up straight inside. Also, keep in mynd that my girlfriend who by then could verry possiblly be my wife will come along.

I would also like to have some basic creature comforts, such as a tv/vcr/dvd system, and since I am a techie and earn my living online, I would like to have some basic computer abilities.

I live in a very humble setting now, I drive an old car, have a small place that costs me next to nothing. and I don't really have a lot of "stuff", but things that I do have, that I use frequently, I try to make as nice and comfortable as possible.

Anyway, the point is, while I understand that it can be done in a much smaller boat, realistically, for my needs, I am looking for a 36-40 footer.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

That's very true John... 

One friend of mine, a lifelong sailor, always hated multihulls... went out for sail on a sister ship to my boat, and is currently awaiting delivery of a trimaran... When he called me to tell me he ordered one earlier today, I thought he was playing an April Fool's joke on me. 

Some people want a floating condo, with all the goodies of land-based life. i can understand that is what they want... Me, that isn't what I want. I go sailing to get away from the rat race... I'm hoping to sail from Buzzards Bay down to Norfolk, VA via the outside later this year. Unfortunately, the wind will probably be against me... since it tends to come out of the southwest along most of the coast... UGH... but I think it'll be an interesting trip.


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## Kacper (Oct 24, 2006)

> Look at Tania Aebi, who sailed a Contessa 26, Donna Lange, who is in a Southern Cross 28, Pat Henry, who was in a Southern Cross 31, have all circumnavigated the globe... okay, Donna's not quite done yet, but she's in the home stretch... The Pardeys sailed aboard two different boats, Talesin was less than 30' LOD, and Serrafyn was less than 25' LOD. Webb Chiles circumnavigated four times, once in a Drascombe Lugger, but that's an extreme example IMHO.


 Look at Kacper, in a 32' Bayfield, heading out across the Pacific this August


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Skrap-

Part of the problem you're going to run into is that most bluewater capable boats in the size range you're looking at aren't going to be all that spacious on the interior. I'm a techie too... and have to have some basic computer capabilities aboard my boat, but I don't see any need for the large screen TV and all that stuff. I don't see any point in carrying a DVD player, when my laptop is perfectly capable of doing all that. 

If I were you, I'd be looking at the Elizabethan 33, Southern Cross 35, Hallberg Rassy Rasmus 35, or the Alberg 37 (which came in yawl and sloop rigs IIRC). These are boats that are probably in your price range, and fairly seaworthy.


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## tenuki (Feb 11, 2007)

skrap1r0n, You can learn a lot on a that catalina 25, but I know what you mean about the headroom, heck I'm 5' 9" and they seem small to me. My boat is even worse but I don't plan on spending much time below.  I know people who are still stuck on their big boats 'getting ready' to take off, but there is always some maintenance or upgrade that needs to get paid for first.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

I just went from a 33 footer to a 41 footer for the purposes of passagemaking. I couldn't see me, the wife and our son, who will be eight when we leave and maybe 13 when we return, on a boat that wasn't essentially "compartimentalized" into deck, aft cabin, pilothouse, saloon, and forepeak workshop, which, currently accessible only via a heavy steel deck hatch, would make a nice sulking place if needed. The up/down nature of the boat further sub-divides things into distinct "zones"...I'm not even counting the head.

This was very deliberate a consideration as we were boat hunting. We wanted a small by current standards saloon for safety reasons and we wanted sea berths in that saloon. We wanted a pilot berth, or at least a place to curl up, in the pilothouse if we needed "spelling" during a watch. And I needed a place for my books and to write, which meant a folding office table in the dark and quiet aft cabin. Wait until I put crash doors in...it will be hermetic...

All this is going to be, I hope, vindicated during long passages when we might want to get away from each other a bit. But I don't think it makes for a great Lake Ontario boat. For that reason, I am in essence leasing my old 33 footer to a friend for a number of years, because I want to have the option of selling the "expedition" boat when we return and going back to the stripped out cruiser. My larger-boat-owing friends can't believe I'd ever go back to a smaller boat...and 33 feet isn't small, but it's smaller than it used to be...but I think I want to at least keep that door open, as the strengths of the smaller boat for all the Great Lakes and even doing coasting in say Nova Scotia to Newfoundland are more practical than maintaining an ocean-ready passagemaker. It's like those miniature panel trucks the post office uses to drop bags off to the mailmen: they are just right for the job they do.

Besides, I really do prefer the tiller to the wheel. I guess it's like when you love a petite brunette and a tall blonde...why choose when you can love both?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

> Besides, I really do prefer the tiller to the wheel. I guess it's like when you love a petite brunette and a tall blonde...why choose when you can love both?


Because you have to pay docking fees, storage fees, and taxes on both...and I'd rather just pay them on the smaller boat..  besides, I've never really like tall blondes... married a petite raven-haired beauty...  and I'm not Mormon...


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## tenuki (Feb 11, 2007)

I'm not even going to make the comment about docking fees....


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## labatt (Jul 31, 2006)

Kacper said:


> Look at Kacper, in a 32' Bayfield, heading out across the Pacific this August


Since Kacper is singlehanding on a 32', does that make it OK for my family of four to go out in a 112' vessel?

I understand what you're saying SD, but different strokes for different folks. Look at Dawn Riley - she lives on a Passport 40, just for herself!

If we wanted all of the comforts of home and if we weren't researching this carefully, we'd probably end up with a Hunter or Beneteau. I can get a smaller one of these with the three cabins I'm looking for (my wife and I, my son and my daughter). But we want a bluewater vessel. A boat capable of taking my family safely down the coast, perhaps across to South America, maybe to Europe - who knows. Money is not a major issue. I hate camping with a passion, but I love the water and I love turning off that motor. We launched Pelican on Thursday, and on Friday I sailed her into Back Creek under full sail and only dropped them when in sight of Port Annapolis Marina. I have a motor for auxilliary power only. Comfortable bluewater vessels with 3 cabins are almost all 48'+

Do I want a 50'+ boat? Yes. Why? Because I like to spread out. I love space. I love toys and gadgets. Do I depend on them? No way. But I sure do love them! Do I like my privacy? You bet! A 40' boat just doesn't give me enough privacy. It certainly doesn't give my two kids any privacy - sharing a cabin. I'm getting a larger boat so we have room for my wife's triathlon bike and my road racer, plus my kids bikes. Could we fit those on our 40 footer and also provision and bring other items? Nope. I want a queen or king sized bed since I'm not a small guy and I like to spread out while sleeping. I want a center cockpit so we have separation and privacy from the kids when my wife and I want it. We need a 50'+ boat for this.

So yes, I *could* get away with a smaller boat, but I'm not trying to prove anything. I want to be comfortable. I want to sail. I want to see culture, and show it to my kids. I want to enjoy myself. I want to anchor out instead of going to a marina. I want lots of things, and a bigger boat does it for us, and I'm not the least bit ashamed of it.

You mention that a smaller boat costs less to buy and maintain, so you have more money for a cruising kitty. I'm incredibly fortunate and this should not be an issue for my family as long as things don't change between now and when we go for our cruise (and if things do change, we won't even be able to do a smaller boat - owning a company has its disadvantages, like using your house as collateral for lines of credit).

You mention that larger boats aren't ask good for gunkholing. I don't disagree with this, but that's why we're now leaning towards a ketch and a keel/centerboard model. Hopefully, that combo will increase our ability to go places while allowing us to stay big.

I don't disagree on the maintenance problems, but we will be going into this with our eyes open. We will have identified the most major potential issues and drafted plans to deal with them.

For us, by going to a larger boat, we'll be more comfortable and our trip will be more about the sailing and our family time rather than being frustrated about our close quarters (even in a 50'-55' boat, quarters are still very close).

You ask the question "Do great minds choose smaller boats?" I proffer that if this is true, and smaller boats, less money and simplicity are what make great minds and great sailors, Mike Sanderson on ABN Amro One, Robin Knox-Johnston on his Open 60 Saga Insurance, and others must be complete idiots since they are sailing on huge, very complex, incredibly expensive boats.

I take offense that you feel that if you don't rough it and cruise in a small boat, you must not be a "great mind" and you aren't a true sailor. I'd actually lean in the other direction... you'd be stupid not to buy the biggest boat you can afford (from a purchase, refit, maintenance and cruising kitty perspective) and actually be comfortable. I'm not sure where comfort exactly is when it comes to determining your dedication to the sport. I recall reading that Joshua Slocum often wished for a larger boat - he just couldn't afford it.

To me, a great mind is one who chooses to sail. A not so great mind is one that chooses to discriminate based upon what others sail.

We'll buy each other rum punches some day and debate it for hours like true sailors should


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

> You ask the question "Do great minds choose smaller boats?" I proffer that if this is true, and smaller boats, less money and simplicity are what make great minds and great sailors, Mike Sanderson on ABN Amro One, Robin Knox-Johnston on his Open 60 Saga Insurance, and others must be complete idiots since they are sailing on huge, very complex, incredibly expensive boats.


Last I checked neither of them are paying for those boats, as they are sponsored boats and I'm talking about cruising boats rather than the much more expensive racing market. Also, I don't believe Mike owns ABN/Amro One. _You're taking things out of context._ Hell, if I could get someone to pay for it, I'd get a huge boat and be done with it.. but that isn't what I'm talking about. Please keep the comparison apples to apples so to speak.



> I take offense that you feel that if you don't rough it and cruise in a small boat, you must not be a "great mind" and you aren't a true sailor. I'd actually lean in the other direction... you'd be stupid not to buy the biggest boat you can afford (from a purchase, refit, maintenance and cruising kitty perspective) and actually be comfortable. I'm not sure where comfort exactly is when it comes to determining your dedication to the sport. I recall reading that Joshua Slocum often wished for a larger boat - he just couldn't afford it.


_ Again, you're putting words in my mouth that I didn't write._.. You might want to re-read my original post. I would appreciate it if you didn't start reading biases into my post that aren't actually there. If you feel a need to have a 40' boat, with a washer, dryer, microwave oven, satellite TV.. so be it... that's your comfort level. I don't have a problem with that.

I also agree that going too small is just not sane... but again, this is often detemined by your personal comfort level and need for space. What you need for a family of four, which is your situation, is going to be far different from what I need for single-handing.



> To me, a great mind is one who chooses to sail. A not so great mind is one that chooses to discriminate based upon what others sail.
> 
> We'll buy each other rum punches some day and debate it for hours like true sailors should


I don't discriminate against people on the basis of what they sail... Hell, I'm a multihull sailor...doing that would be ridiculous...we're outnumbered by the monohullers by a long ways... And you can buy the first round.


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## chris_gee (May 31, 2006)

There will always be a bigger more expensive boat than yours.
But you take a pleasure in yours.
I had more enjoyment out of a 12 dinghy fishing 2 x pw racing 1xpw than probably any other boat.
Probably more than the guy with the 110' yacht with a paid crew and paid female companionship, especially when some one else had one 111'.
Some few have mega $$ most don't. But if your bowels and most else works, and your family loves you who cares?


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

As small as possible, but no smaller.


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## tenuki (Feb 11, 2007)

sailaway21 said:


> As small as possible, but no smaller.


Exactly. This summarizes my personal feelings on the topic.


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## Kacper (Oct 24, 2006)

> Since Kacper is singlehanding on a 32', does that make it OK for my family of four to go out in a 112' vessel?


 I'm actually headed out with my Girlfriend, who's buying the boat with me(without her I wouldnt be able to buy the Bayfield, lol, she's selling her apartment and we're using some of the cash for the boat!)


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Kacper said:


> I'm actually headed out with my Girlfriend, who's buying the boat with me(without her I wouldnt be able to buy the Bayfield, lol, she's selling her apartment and we're using some of the cash for the boat!)


Kacper-

Remember to keep the Admiral happy.... no place for you to run to or hide in on a 32' boat out at sea....and if she's not happy...trust me, you won't be happy.  Have fun though and may you have fair winds when you go...


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## labatt (Jul 31, 2006)

Kacper said:


> I'm actually headed out with my Girlfriend, who's buying the boat with me(without her I wouldnt be able to buy the Bayfield, lol, she's selling her apartment and we're using some of the cash for the boat!)


OK.. OK.. I stand corrected... I can only buy a 64' boat then. 

P.S. Cam - can we get more smiley options?


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## labatt (Jul 31, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> I don't discriminate against people on the basis of what they sail... Hell, I'm a multihull sailor...doing that would be ridiculous...we're outnumbered by the monohullers by a long ways... And you can buy the first round.


You're a multihull sailor???? I didn't even know!! Talk about a size hog.. sheesh!!!! And here you are writing that smaller is better. For shame!! I'm not buying the first round. You're buying the first two - one for each hull!!! (or is it a trimaran?)


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

SD...that is a point but it only applies based on what you want to do with the boat...

Where does that leave me??? mine is 42...

There are those that have sailed almost all sizes of boats in a life time, that have gone from optimists to 420, to 470, to Star to dragon 25, 28, 32, and now chose a 42 for racing purposes..in my opinion...size depends on what you want to do, and HOW....

I single hand my boat, no problem here, I could cross the Atlantic solo on her...I can cruise with the family also, I can strip her and race...to me my boat is the best size for me now...and the important word is "good for now"...I believe.

All this to say that small may be good for one purpose, but larger will fit more purposes...hope I explained..terrible headach now...something I ate here


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Labatt-

I thought every one knew I sail a trimaran...  As far as I can tell, you're only sailing a third of a boat...  She does fit into a standard slip, since the amas retract, but out sailing she's got a 18' beam.  And I can generally run a 40' boat down without much trouble... 

Right now, she's in storage, just waiting for the season to start. She's next to a Cape Dory 25, and absolutely dwarfs her... But she is 3' longer LOA than the CD25.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Giulietta said:


> SD...that is a point but it only applies based on what you want to do with the boat...


 Never said otherwise.. if you want a fast racing boat that can cruise with a family of four... I wouldn't suggest anything smaller than what you've got... 



> Where does that leave me??? mine is 42...


 But she has no boom...so she's not going anywhere anytime soon... when's the new boom supposed to come in.



> There are those that have sailed almost all sizes of boats in a life time, that have gone from optimists to 420, to 470, to Star to dragon 25, 28, 32, and now chose a 42 for racing purposes..in my opinion...size depends on what you want to do, and HOW....


 I went from Sunfish, to Cape Cod Mercuries, to J/24s, to OPBs, and finally decided to stop mooching rides on OPBs, and got her...



> I single hand my boat, no problem here, I could cross the Atlantic solo on her...I can cruise with the family also, I can strip her and race...to me my boat is the best size for me now...and the important word is "good for now"...I believe.


 A family of four would go crazy on a boat as small as mine. 



> All this to say that small may be good for one purpose, but larger will fit more purposes...hope I explained..terrible headach now...something I ate here


 Must be the morcella...  Nasty stuff...


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## pmoyer (Oct 3, 2006)

*Back to those Volvo Open designs for a second....*

I just noticed the reference to Sanderson on ABN AMRO ONE, and RKJ on Saga Insurance, and I'd like to point out some things about the Volvo Open (VO) designs.

These boats are designed to be planing or semi-planing hulls. The materials engineering and designs are at least at the edge of safety (or over the edge of safety). There's no way comparing a cruising or even a crusing/racing sailor's needs to these gents, or the other VO racers, is even reasonable. There are three reasons for sailing big in racing: long waterlines sail faster (e.g., Wild Oats, the super-maxi that won the Sydney to Hobart), longer boats take bigger breaking waves to roll, and (most importantly) the notice of race includes the class specification. When you're entering the Volvo Ocean Race, you either sail a VO70 or you don't sail. Because of the speed requirements, they're super-uncomfortable boats to sail, particularly to weather when they pound horribly.

These designs are incredibly fast. "The Black Pearl" (Paul Cayard's VO70 from the last VOR) hit 48.something knots surfing in the Southern Ocean. Kojiro Shiraishi in the VO60 "Spriti of Yukoh" hit 52 knots rounding Cape Horn in a Force 9 - just a month ago in the Velux 5 Oceans (singlehanded).

These designs are also very dangerous, IMO, from a seaworthiness perspective. Alex Thompson abandoned his VO60 "Hugo Boss" in the first leg of the Velux 5 Oceans because (I think) the keel failed. He was rescued by Mike Golding in Ecover (another Open 60), which was partially dismasted two hours later. In the VOR, Movistar (an Open 70) broke her keel and had to be abandoned in the North Atlantic during a storm - the crew was rescued by ABN AMRO TWO. (An aside: somewhere on my drive at home is a picture I took, which is probably the last photograph of Movistar's ill-fated keel, taken in the slings in Baltimore.) Graham Dalton, in a VO50, broke two fingers in the Southern Ocean when the boat tripped on her keel. These designs require constant helm attention by very experienced helmsmen. Paul Cayard has actually said that he probably won't sail a VO design again because they're just too dangerous. In the quest for extra speed, some feel they go too far in design compromises.

That said, these are very sexy boats, and I really love them. If I had a chance to race on one, I would. But I wouldn't even think of using them as an argument for a particular boat design (other than one that wins races)....









(this is one of my shots from the VOR)


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## skrap1r0n (Mar 6, 2007)

sailingdog said:


> I don't see any point in carrying a DVD player, when my laptop is perfectly capable of doing all that.
> 
> If I were you, I'd be looking at the Elizabethan 33, Southern Cross 35, Hallberg Rassy Rasmus 35, or the Alberg 37 (which came in yawl and sloop rigs IIRC). These are boats that are probably in your price range, and fairly seaworthy.


Not wanting a big screen plasma, but one of those little flip down things like they mount in auto's would be really cool.

Also, thanks for those models. I am not really sure of all the manufaturers out there, I like those a lot. I am mainly looking for something that will be a good blue water home for a while and that is mostly affordable.



tenuki said:


> skrap1r0n, You can learn a lot on a that catalina 25, but I know what you mean about the headroom, heck I'm 5' 9" and they seem small to me. My boat is even worse but I don't plan on spending much time below.  I know people who are still stuck on their big boats 'getting ready' to take off, but there is always some maintenance or upgrade that needs to get paid for first.


I am on a lake, and don't get me wrong, I love the 25, and honestly, the only changes I would like to see would be for it to have an inboard rather than an outboard and a marine head rather than a portalet. I would then feel better about maybe putting it in the gulf and do some costal hopping. The size isn't really bad for now, but I am not sure I would want to spend more than a few days at a time in it.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Skrap-

Here are a few more boats that might make your list to look at:

Bristol 32 
Westsail 32
Allied Luders 33
Contest 33
Allied Seabreeze 34
Bristol 33 or 34

PMoyer-

That was my point about comparing apples to apples.. The Volvo Open racing designs aren't owned by a person, they're owned by a corporation... and they're not cruising boats... comparing a VO boat to a cruising boat is like comparing an Formula 1 car to a soccer mom's mini-van. _I am willing to bet if you asked any one of the VO sailors what boats they would pick to cruise on, the VO boats wouldn't be in the top ten of their list_...


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

SD, got into this late, but, you really know how to push the right buttons. I'm even thinking how I can defend me owning a 45 ft. heavy displacement boat. I just know, that I get caught out in some pretty heavy muck sometimes, that happens when you're out more than 150 days a year, and when it's blowing 45+ with 12-15 ft breaking seas, I don't want to be in a 27 footer. Could a 27'er make it, sure it could and have, but, while I'm having a hot coco in the center cockpit and I pass a 30'er with the sails blown out and the crew with that 1000 yard stare, I'm glad I have what I have.

In the middle of the ocean, all boats are small.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

pmoyer said:


> (this is one of my shots from the VOR)


Wow....look at those wheels!!!! where have I seen them???


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## pmoyer (Oct 3, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> _I am willing to bet if you asked any one of the VO sailors what boats they would pick to cruise on, the VO boats wouldn't be in the top ten of their list_...


No way. But it would be an interesting poll. I wonder what they _would _choose. I was planning on talking to a few, coincidentally, in a couple of weeks; I'll ask, just for grins.

Cheers!


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## pmoyer (Oct 3, 2006)

Giulietta said:


> Wow....look at those wheels!!!! where have I seen them???


Some of us without them are envious of those that have them.... 

I'll just go sit in the corner and play with my tiller.

Cheers!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Wouldnt it be a shame if we were all the same. I know an excellant family that traveled for ten years or so on a 28 bristol channel cutter with three children and an adult couple form Baja to Maine. They had an excellant time and fine folks. I know a friend singlehands a Grampyteau 36 and would like a fifty foot freedom ................ Whatever we can afford and handle, I would like a little bigger but can realistically afford a little smaller So just sail as much and as often as possible and have a great time. Seems to be the best plan.


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

I am late getting to this thread and did not read the entire thing, but I would like to add some of my views. 
We sailed a twenty-five Cal for a long time and loved the boat, but at best she would do only 6 - 6.5 knots. Moving up in size with longer waterline and more sail area gets you moving quite a bit better which gets you to your next port quicker which can get you to safety and out of harms way quicker. (Speaking from a costal cruisers perspective)
Also, we ran out of room in a hurry on the small boat. Try provisioning a
Small boat for an extended period of time. For us extended is only two weeks or so, with plenty of harbors to stop and replenish. We still ran out of room.
The other thing that drove me crazy was having to move something in order to get to what ever it is your trying to reach. I could load the boat the best I knew how and as soon as we left we always needed what ever was on the bottom. Had to move something three times to get what ever it was I was looking for. Now, every thing has its place and there is very little moving this to get to that.
I know everybody spends most of his or her time in the cockpit right, well what happens when your anchored and you get a nice down pour? Do you sit out in the rain in the cockpit or does everybody including all the gear, cockpit cushions, etc., go down below? On a twenty-five foot boat with all the gear stored, at anchor, in a rainstorm, your going below and you're going to be on top of each other.
Sailing dog mentioned marketing approaches in his original post and I have mentioned it in other threads. When I first started sailing entry-level boats were 20-25 feet. Now entry-level boats are 30-35 feet. I guess someone is doing a good job of marketing (and making more money).
I loved our small boat, but we find we are more comfortable with a little more elbow room.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> Because you have to pay docking fees, storage fees, and taxes on both...and I'd rather just pay them on the smaller boat..  besides, I've never really like tall blondes... married a petite raven-haired beauty...  and I'm not Mormon...


That's why I'm loaning the smaller boat (and its fees) to another guy...Two boats and no car make Skip crazy...

I already have a petite raven-haired beauty...ok, closer to redhead, but she's five feet tall.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

I've mentioned elsewhere that my co-skipper, though fit, is a mere 60.5 inches high and weighs about 115 with her foulies on. 41-42 feet (and with a relatively short mast at that) was all the boat she could physically work without getting into complicated mechanical aids and still stand a windy watch.

Actually, it's not even a strength issue: it's more a leverage issue and her being able to take in the main entirely solo in a freshening wind.

We decided that even though I was looking at 45 footers like the Kanter Atlantic, we needed a boat BOTH of us could sail if one of us was completely incapacitated. The kid will be eight years old during the first year of sailing, and could maybe keep a course in the daytime (hydraulic steering) for brief periods, but I doubt he'll have the strength, height or knowledge to take a daytime half-watch until age 10, which is probably the same as Giu's kid Fred.

That means that crew capacity, not stowage or "a place to put my stuff", played the biggest role in limiting our boat choice.

An older fellow at our club bought a 50 foot ketch a couple of years ago but had to sell it (I hear he's looking for a 30 footer now) because he simply couldn't handle that much boat, even with a bow thruster. He sold it to a 50 year old who I watched motor on and off the dock and to the pump-out solo and with zero problems, because he was fit enough to eyeball his coasting and to reach the amidships gate with a spring line in his teeth and a boat hook in one hand, and to actually jump two feet down without breaking a hip or something. It's sad for the older guy, but a boat that has a freeboard not much higher than the dock, plus a tiller he doesn't have to squeeze around to get to the lifelines, will likely still be able to sail a few more years than if he had stuck with the beautiful but inappropriate 50 footer.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Valiente said:


> That's why I'm loaning the smaller boat (and its fees) to another guy...Two boats and no car make Skip crazy...
> 
> I already have a petite raven-haired beauty...ok, closer to redhead, but she's five feet tall.


Does she know you're looking for a tall blonde to go with her...


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Well, as this is SD's thread, let me say he has it all wrong:

Great minds choose Catalinas, real MEN choose bigger boats. And why buy 3 hulls when you can get it done with 1?

HAAHAA!!

I can see SD's face crinkling up with rage as he reads this... just remember I am kidding.

The genreal rule for buying a boat:

1) People without kids should get the smallest boat they can comfortably cruise on (with comfort being the operative word, not smallest).

2) People with kids... bigger is probably better and all the rules change.

Funny SD, but I remember the salesman I bought my Catalina from (great guy, we have become good friends), said, "People are getting too big of boats. I remember when a big cruising boat was maybe 35 feet. You never saw 40+ footers."

Now, do I agree with him... yes, for the most part. I have only been on the water sailing "large" boats since 95, so my experience is limitied compared to you old farts (sorry, meant old salts... haha), but there has been a real progression towards larger boats. 

NOW I WILL TELL YOU WHY:

Baby boomers. That is your answer. They are retiring and wanting to go and enjoy life. THat is the reason a starter home in S Florida is between 300-500k. That is the reason you are paying 200-300k for a production boat. That is the reason the RV industry cannot make enough 500k RV busses. They are all retiring and ready to spend their money doing the things they enjoy. You will also see a trend toward trawlers and motorboats. Why? It is easier. In order to capture more of that crowd, sailboat mfg's have put in things to make the sailing easier (electric winches, bow thrusters, stern thrusters) and many amenities that would not have been seen many years ago. This trend will continue.

Now, what has driven up these prices, besides supply and demand, is that the technology really is available today to take the comforts of home with you. However, those comforts come at a great price. As we have discussed before, a washer-dryer will very likely cost you 20,000-25,000. Is it wrong?? No, it is not. It is just life. I don't begrudge someone wanting to be comfort on the water. I begrudge people that have more money than sense and depend too much on ship-board items meant to complement good seamanship, not negate it. But that is another discussion.

- CD


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## tenuki (Feb 11, 2007)

CruisingDad, if you are right (and I think you are) just imagine us Gen Xers retiring, we are gonna cash in on all the inexpensive, large, hardly used luxury yachts the current grey yuppy navy has wasted their money on. Yippee. Oh, wait, I don't want a large yacht. Nevermind.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

> Great minds choose Catalinas, real MEN choose bigger boats. And why buy 3 hulls when you can get it done with 1?


Oh... so many ways I could respond to the first part of your post... 



> I don't begrudge someone wanting to be comfort on the water. I begrudge people that have more money than sense and depend too much on ship-board items meant to complement good seamanship, not negate it. But that is another discussion.


Well said... unfortunately there are a lot of people who seem to think that they can buy safety with technology. An in-mast furling system is great, until it jams in 30 knots of wind... and you can't get the main down. Electric winches are fine and dandy, until you use one to tear a big section of your main apart, because you forgot to undo the reefing point ties... and so on. 

Sailing and cruising used to be about the voyages made... and the places visited. Now, many people buy sailboats to use as a vacation home, and want all the comforts of their house when they're out sailing. That's fine, if that is their priority... but I seriously hope they at least get the sailing skills up to spec before going anywhere far from land.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Tenuki & SD,

This probably deserves a different thread, but here are my guesses on trends:

1) The Used boat market will get very strong. I may be seeing that alrady. I got a letter the other day from someone wanting to buy my boat. First time in 12 years they are actually coming to me (and my boat is not for sale, incidentally). New boats are so freaking expensive (before outfitting), it amazes me. 

2) More and more manufactureres will move into the trawler market to catch the sailor-fall-off.

3) Slippage will become an incredible luxury. You will see people moving more and more into mooring balls. I also think the days of secluded anchocharges will dissapear.

4) Ma and Pa will opt for the comforts of living aboard and will buy an older larger boat than making do with a smaller, less comfortable boat (albeit newer).

5) Mortgage companies will make very creative ways for people to buy the very expensive boats they have chosen. 

6) In about 20-30 years, you will be able to pick up sailboats and trawlers for pennys on the dollar. Same thing for S Florida real estate (although some of that is happening now) and all the exotic homes in the islands. 

THOUGHTS ANYONE??


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

1) The used boat market will cannibalize the new boat market... it happened before, and I don't see why it wouldn't happen again. 

2) I don't know if that many manufacturers will move into the trawler market. I think it is more likely that some will go out of business... switching from sailboats to trawlers requires a lot of changes and probably a fair bit of capital investment that many smaller boat builders will not be able to make. 

3) Part of the problem is that slips are becoming endangered as many waterfront areas convert marina space into dockominiums or condo complexes. Mooring balls may become what is next... but for many people, a mooring ball isn't all that useful... since they need to have shore power supplied to their boat.  

4) Yes, because they're using the boat as a home, not as a form of transportation and exploration.


5) See this already happening in the residential mortgage market. Don't see any reason it wouldn't transfer over to the marine mortgage market as well. Biggest problem is the risk for the banks, as real estate tends to appreciate, boats do not... Interest-only loans will probably become available as well. The banks will probably take out insurance to cover the defaulters... spreading the risk of issuing such policies. 

6) Has basically already happened on the used boat market. An Alberg 30 is a pretty solid boat and cheap to buy in terms of what you're getting for the buck... Same thing with the Southern Cross 31, and many other quality used boats. In the future, the market will just have more larger boats available in it. As for the home prices, don't see that happening until the demand for waterfront dies down... and I doubt that will happen. The prices will probably adjust downwards on a cyclical basis, but I doubt we'll see the pennies on the dollar pricing we see with used boats. Land just doesn't depreciate like that, it is a scarce resource.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

I think the used boat market has pretty much hit bottom. How can it not? Just think of the depreciation on boats right now and look at how much a new one cost... without anything on it!!! I cannot believe it. New boat prices are absurd. A well maintained used boat is probably as good (in some cases better??) than a new boat. I say this... and I have always bought new, so my comments are honest.

As far as the waterfront property - it is high and always will be (proportionally). But what we have seen is massive development for 2nd homes (or investment homes to flip) where there is no real f/t residences or need. THe local market cannot sustain the cost of those homes. In California when you make 100-150k/year, 500k is tough but do-able. In SW Fl where minimum wage is alive and well, 500k for a starter is absurd and it will correct or plunge. It is doing that right now, in my opinion, and will not get better for a long time. 

Just my thoughts. Others that live in S florida are more than welcome to post their thoughts too.

- CD


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

By the way, related to this thread, I just heard that New Century filed for Bankruptcy. That sure won't help the real estate market in areas like Fl...


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

CD...we don't have baby boomers in Europe...and the same trend...

Try again....


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

What trend do you have Giu? Which one are you commenting about?


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

CD I was stating that we don't have baby boomers in Europe and boats are getting bigger too..the boat size trend I meant...


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

Speaking of larger boats CD, you're wanted on the Catalina forum.


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

Cruisingdad said:


> The general rule for buying a boat:
> 
> 2) People with kids... bigger is probably better and all the rules change.
> 
> - CD


CD,

In your expertise...is there a footage minimum per kid I could go by...say 20' for every kid, then I could move up to a 40' plus   May I use your expert consultation to inform my wife we need a bigger boat?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*



Valiente:

Click to expand...

*


> because he simply couldn't handle that much boat, even with a bow thruster. He sold it to a 50 year old who I watched motor on and off the dock and to the pump-out solo and with zero problems


Jeez, I hope I don't resemble that paragraph. I single hand a lot, when I come in I have a spring line amidships, stop the boat, throw bow and stern lines out onto the dock and secure the spring. Of course I usually have a 15kt cross wind and a 4 kt current either fore or aft.

In my early 60's I expect to be sailing this beast til i'm in my 80's.


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## skrap1r0n (Mar 6, 2007)

Giulietta said:


> CD...we don't have baby boomers in Europe...and the same trend...
> 
> Try again....


no baby boomer in Europe? I thought baby Boomers were the first generation of kids born after WWII.


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## tenuki (Feb 11, 2007)

I'm lucky Edmonds Marina just rebuilt on the old model/ratio of slip sizes before it became clear the trend was to bigger, although I'm expecting them to figure out a way to start transitioning. Shilshoal in Seattle is going through a resizing that will probably make 24' slips almost as hard to find as their larger slips currently are. It's annoying as a smaller boat owner. Everette Marina, the puget sound cheaper moorage location around here is opening up a new 'wing' that is 40' and up (140') only. When even walmart is going upscale you gotta take notice.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

skrap1r0n said:


> no baby boomer in Europe? I thought baby Boomers were the first generation of kids born after WWII.


Yeah... but only in the US... didn't really happen in Europe, mainly due to the difference in rebuilding infrastructure there... WWII beat the daylights out of Europe, and the US enjoyed a massive period of prosperity that Europe missed out on, as they were too busy rebuilding what got destroyed.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Giu,

I also posted that the reason was that people want all the amenities of home, which requires larger boats (at least I thougth I said that??). These are not based on scientific study, just my outside view. 

People want to be comfortable (at least in the US). I also wonder if US trends would not influence European trends. WHy wouldn't they, at least to some point. 

Thoughts?

T37:

Boat size justification: 

Take the number of children you have, multiply that times 30, and then add on ten feet for every year the child has been alive. Then take that figure and multiply it by the number of years you want to survive on the boat together.

Thus: 2 kids: 2*30*1= 60 footer for 1 year. 3 kids: 3*30*1=90 footer. 2 kids for 2 years: 2*30*2=120 footer. 

This is a well proven, scientific, study and THESE ARE MINIMUM REQUIREMENTS!!!

Sound too large? Well, you have not lived with kids on your boat, have you? (smile)

- CD


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

Like I say,
1 Wife + 2 Teenage Girls = 36 feet minimum.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

ianhlnd said:


> Jeez, I hope I don't resemble that paragraph. I single hand a lot, when I come in I have a spring line amidships, stop the boat, throw bow and stern lines out onto the dock and secure the spring. Of course I usually have a 15kt cross wind and a 4 kt current either fore or aft.
> 
> In my early 60's I expect to be sailing this beast til i'm in my 80's.


Well, I hope so, too! But people age differently. I was racing with an 85 year old at the helm one time...strong as an ox, had killed 50 Nazis, etc., but he was pretty clearly demented and probably had no place at the helm...people had to nudge him a lot.

Other people keep their wits about them but their hips or knees can't take jumping up and down into boats, or the companionway defeats them. A less obvious problem of older sailors is that sometimes the sense of balance goes and they get pretty bruised toppling over when a wave hits.

The good news is that all that fresh air and sunshine (and beer) means I see a LOT of very old guys (85 plus) still sailing and scraping their hulls every spring. We have a guy, "Diver" Don MacIntyre, who is 83 and still dives on our moorings and docks...in APRIL (3 degrees C)...to inspect and repair our chains and swivels. He took a month off for a bypass, but he's back at it. You should see him, falling backwards out of his 15 foot inflatable.

So I wouldn't worry. Worry kills you. Sailing extends your life...if you have a propane detector and can receive the weather band!


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## labatt (Jul 31, 2006)

sailortjk1 said:


> Like I say,
> 1 Wife + 2 Teenage Girls = 36 feet minimum.


Wouldn't you need at least 4 heads? I don't know if you can get 4 heads on a 36 footer.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

valiente:


> if you have a propane detector and can receive the weather band!


Nah, the secret is young women and good wine. Was born after they killed all the nazis


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

labatt said:


> Wouldn't you need at least 4 heads? I don't know if you can get 4 heads on a 36 footer.


CD wishes he had two heads aboard his boat...  So does the EPA...


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Um, Sd, I do have 2 heads. Wish I only had one, but that is another story.


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## tenuki (Feb 11, 2007)

Man, I came up with a really killer formula for calculating the 'captain's center of balance', but can't figure out how to do integral signs and limits using BBCode. 

I also developed a feedback analysis for crew stablity, but again, no math formula in bbcode.

ah well, just image the captain center of balance moving past the hull at deck level exponentially as boat size decreases and crew size increases and closed loop poles reaching into the right hand plane as time increases.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Cruisingdad said:


> Um, Sd, I do have 2 heads. Wish I only had one, but that is another story.


Must have been on the 380 then...


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

380 only has one, you are correct. 400 has 2.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

ianhlnd said:


> Jeez, I hope I don't resemble that paragraph. I single hand a lot, when I come in I have a spring line amidships, stop the boat, throw bow and stern lines out onto the dock and secure the spring. Of course I usually have a 15kt cross wind and a 4 kt current either fore or aft.
> 
> In my early 60's I expect to be sailing this beast til i'm in my 80's.


Ian...my guess is that you have people running over to catch your lines!!


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

Cruisingdad said:


> Um, Sd, I do have 2 heads. Wish I only had one, but that is another story.


Seems as soon as you hit 40 ft. you get two.
I would think the room could be better utilized elsewhere.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

I have two also    

She made me do it......   heavy crap....real heavy....  

I could have saved almost 150lbs weight with that....  

but Noooooooooo she wanted one just for her.....   

However...think positive....she didn't mind I don't have mirrors!!!! and its a very large EMPTY space in the front!!!! yupeeeeeeeeee


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Giu-

You're a very strange man... the sailing withdrawal is obviously having some negative side effects.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Yes the boat size thing is a personal choice but for me the maintenance issues on large boats is the main concern. With modern labour saving devices sail handling is not quite the problem it once was, bow thrusters make handling a large boat a little easier in close quarters but unless you have the dosh to pay someone else to do it, painting the hull of something bigger than 40 odd feet is no longer just a weekends work. 

We will never cruise with more than two (at a pinch, three) people on board so anything larger than around 40' is for me overkill. Sure I'd like the space but I don't need the aggravation that would go with it. 

As for the need for washing machines and dryers, perlease. Maybe others want to haul a bloody chinese steam laundry around the world with them but not this little brown rodent I can tell you. 

I don't care who you are, sacrifices have to be made if you want to live on a boat. Me I'll stick with smallish, not so expensive and within my capabilities to maintain myself. Bigger the thing the more chance I reckon that you'll spend most of your time tied up to a dock rather than out sailing.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Amen to that mr. Wombat..


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

Good points mate. Something else, that I think gets lost in this type of discussion, is the amount of larger boats now available, compared to even just 10 years ago. Not only in LOA, but in intent of usage. I think the "weekender" market is the really mover behind bigger boats. Ones that can be used for entertaining at the dock, showing off as "my Yacht", etc.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

You mean the floating condo/status symbol... rather a showplace for one's affluence, not meant for voyaging... 

That would explain the huge cockpits, and huge salons... which are dangerous in any kind of heavy weather.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

Exactly what I mean. There is though, obviously, a large market for them. Though some would buy some "big name" boats for status as well (Oyster, Swan, etc).


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

saildog, TDW


> That would explain the huge cockpits, and huge salons... which are dangerous in any kind of heavy weather


Well ya convinced me, tomorrow I'm listing my boat with a broker and will buy a 27' catalina, or maybe a three hulled thing made of plywood

NOT!

anything under a documented weight of 30 tons is a toy.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Hmmm.. seems like we hit a sensitive spot of Ian's... of course, he needs the larger salons and cockpits to have space for his deck fluff to lay about...


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Obviously, Ian is not that old. He will reach a point where the merits of the Flicka 20' become apparent-virtually no distance involved in chasing.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

sailaway-

If Ian were on a Flicka, and tried to photograph his deck fluff...they'd most likely try to kill him. A wide angle lens would make them look funny and they'd not be all that happy about it...and they'd blame the photographer... and attempt to hurt him... and on a 20' boat, he couldn't run away either.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Well, let's see, I'm sitting here at the office I've built into the port side below a pull out double bunk, watching satellite TV, using either my cannon i9900 or lexmar flatbed, or hp all-in-one for printing or to stay in contact with my clients, I'm heating water to take a nice hot bath in the tub, after which I'll turn on the dvd player, and watch a new movie on the remote TV in the aft cabin. As I slide into my new satin sheets (a birthday present), I'll think of the days I used to sleep on a hard deck on anchor watch before radar guard alarms and gps drift alarms.

In the morning, I'll find some portobello mushrooms somewhere in the 8 cu ft refrigerator, add eggs from the several dozen I keep, and make an omelet with fresh french bread that I've programmed into my bread machine to be ready by 5am. Watch Fox news as I check my email and go onto this forum to see what SD is trying to sitr up today. 

And, I can do this at the dock, or any anchorage on the eastern pacific.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

LOL.... I'll definitely have to visit you when I'm out on the left coast of the country...


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Anytime SD, you're welcome, I'll show you some of God's country but make it before August or September, then I'm heading south to "campo de dios".


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Are you at all near Mission Viejo? I have two nieces out there that I have to visit this year...


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## tenuki (Feb 11, 2007)

ianhlnd said:


> anything under a documented weight of 30 tons is a toy.


Anything over 30 tons is a heavy toy.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Hey SD, Mission Viejo, I think is down by San Juan Capistrano, about 150 mi. Or, in CA we don't work in miles, about 3.5 hrs at 3am or 5-7 hrs at 2pm, crossing Los Angeles anytime is slow. I once drove to San Diego, which is just a bit south of MV, and it took 12 hrs!

My gallery has a few pictures of the Channel Islands National Park, that's where we'd go (I go anyway), figure min 3 days, one day to get far enough out there away from the crowd, next day to the Cuevas and some nice diving, then back in. More days if you got them, can get out further.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I know what you mean... one time I was trying to follow my twin brother from UCSD to Simi Valley, and he beat gridlock, and took about 2-1/2 hours, we didn't and it took almost 5 hours... UGH.. 

Sounds good to me... I'll let you know via e-mail when I have the dates nailed down.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

sailortjk1 said:


> Seems as soon as you hit 40 ft. you get two.
> I would think the room could be better utilized elsewhere.


I have one Lavac in one head for two adults and a child. The emergency system is a deck bucket. It suffices.

I suppose the last option is to clip on at the bowspirit, perform the action, and let the waves stand in for toilet paper!


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## pmoyer (Oct 3, 2006)

Valiente said:


> I suppose the last option is to clip on at the bowspirit, perform the action, and let the waves stand in for toilet paper!


Well, that *is* where the name "head" came from.... 

Cheers!


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

tdw said:


> We will never cruise with more than two (at a pinch, three) people on board so anything larger than around 40' is for me overkill. Sure I'd like the space but I don't need the aggravation that would go with it.
> 
> As for the need for washing machines and dryers, perlease. Maybe others want to haul a bloody chinese steam laundry around the world with them but not this little brown rodent I can tell you.


We have the space to sleep several, but realistically, this isn't going to happen on passage, and if we have that many visitors, I would bite the bullet and come in to dock so they could have access to shoreside toilets and showers and I could have a power line for the inevitable constant fridge accessing...

What I have, which is a slightly different approach, is a double bed in an aft cabin that we will likely only use at anchor. We have approximately six to seven other bunks/daybeds, however, that can be rigged with lee clothes to provide pilot berths. Why so many? Because on passage you might have two out of three crew asleep below and on a single tack, one side of the boat will be more comfortable than the other for sleeping.

I am also considering putting in a folding pipe berth in the forepeak, which would make a rather Spartan but private separate cabin for any crew we take on. The toolbench would be on port, and the pipe berth on starboard. There's AC and DC outlets there, plus a 7 x 14" hatch portlight that would give loads of ventilation as long as water wasn't coming over the bow much.

So the solution for us is to not contemplate ever NEEDING the six or seven berths, which frees up half the boat for provisions and stowage. It's the opposite of a standard Moorings-type charter, with two or even three sleeping cabins.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

pmoyer said:


> Well, that *is* where the name "head" came from....
> 
> Cheers!


I am reminded of the port prostitute who was told by her doctor to reduce her salt intake, and who replied "But doctor, them sailors is so cute!"


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Ian,

I AM WITH YOU! 

I love large cockpits. Want to know why? That is where you spend the majority of your time. I cannot stand the little craped cockpits you guys think are a danger offshore. I dissagree. In hurricane conditions, maybe... but the 99.9999999999999% of the time you are laying back in the cockpit (even at sea), stretched out, reading a book, and glancing around every 10-15 minutes to make sure you are still alone. Buy your boat for the 99.99%, not the off chance of .001% (unless you are crossing the ocean where you have to deal with what mother nature throws).

Salons: There is another area that should have attention. That is where you will spend the down-below bulk of your time. It better be comfortable and have the things there to KEEP you comfortable. Being able to stretch out, read a book, (we honestly do not watch many movies, but can), etc. I also think it should have a nice Nav station that is comfortable. I cannot understand why many of the new boats are putting in smaller nav stations (or awkward) when you have more and more toys going in now than you did 10 years ago!

My complaint with many of the new boats is they skimp on the nav station to put in these luxurious berths... WHICH IS WHERE YOU SPEND THE VERY LEAST AMOUNT OF YOUR TIME. I spend more time on the crapper (during waking hours) than I do in the cabin. Cracks me up. I will tell you what else many boats lack: a dedicated, seperate shower. No big deal when you are a weekender... but as a Liveaboard, sitting on a wet toilet or getting the TP wet because you forgot to close the face of the holder, etc... sucks!!

As far as the 2 heads... I would prefer one large head versus 2 smaller heads (which is what I got). Unfortunately, Kris was fairly adamant about 2 heads because she had no desire of sharing her toilet with boys that miss the bowl half the time. Can I blame her... I guess not. But if it was just us, it would be different.

You make a lot of sacrifices on a boat with kids. Everything (costs) seem to go up exponentially. Chase is 6 and right now he eats almost as much as I do (and more than mom). Glen is quickly approaching behind him. I will tell you what: I GOTTA TEACH THOSE BOYS TO FISH OR I WILL BE BROKE!

Know what I mean??!!!


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> one time I was trying to follow my twin brother


*HOLLY JEAYSUS!!!*

*There's two of you???????!!!!!!       *

Like we say here, disaster never comes alone....


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

CD-

The small cockpit doesn't bother me much on my boat... I've got lots more deck space to spread out on to...  

Giu-

Were... My twin was killed by a drunk driver 20 years ago.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> CD-
> 
> The small cockpit doesn't bother me much on my boat... I've got lots more deck space to spread out on to...
> 
> ...


SD..sorry about that. I didn't know about that..

anyway...regarding your deck space, just be carefull not to drop any coins


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Dropping coins isn't a problem... I don't have any left over after doing all the boat needs done.....


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## skrap1r0n (Mar 6, 2007)

Cruisingdad said:


> My complaint with many of the new boats is they skimp on the nav station to put in these luxurious berths...


For some reason, in looking at boats on line, the first images I usually look at are the nav station and the cockpit in that order.

I will say, though, that I do like the looks of the sleek custom pilot house boats.

The Dix 38 Pilot House model and the Bruce Roberts Voyager 388 are both styles I like.


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## labatt (Jul 31, 2006)

Cruisingdad said:


> As far as the 2 heads... I would prefer one large head versus 2 smaller heads (which is what I got). Unfortunately, Kris was fairly adamant about 2 heads because she had no desire of sharing her toilet with boys that miss the bowl half the time. Can I blame her... I guess not. But if it was just us, it would be different.


Real sailors sit


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## labatt (Jul 31, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> That would explain the huge cockpits, and huge salons... which are dangerous in any kind of heavy weather.


The Catalina 350 springs to mind here... the first time I looked at it I said "Look at all this space!!!". Then I tried to figure out how to get from one side of the cabin to the other in heavy seas and said "Look at all this space!!!"


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## Idiens (Jan 9, 2007)

skrap1r0n said:


> ... I will say, though, that I do like the looks of the sleek custom pilot house boats.


The real pilot house test is whether you can sail them from the inside (get at the halyards, winches and sheets).


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## skrap1r0n (Mar 6, 2007)

Idiens said:


> The real pilot house test is whether you can sail them from the inside (get at the halyards, winches and sheets).


yeah, there is that...


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

Idiens said:


> The real pilot house test is whether you can sail them from the inside (get at the halyards, winches and sheets).


I've yet to see a pilothouse sailboat that passes that test - although I considered mounting winches just inside the port & starboard sliding doors, since the Genoa tracks are located adjacent to each. Turning blocks could be installed for the halyards and mainsheet, leading all lines to the inside helm station.

With the operable overhead hatch, sail trim can be checked as well:










The problem I see, is messing up all that beautiful teak cabinetry and teak/holly sole with soggy lines - considering heavy weather is what drove us from the aft helm to the pilothouse in the first place. 

However, we do on occasion sail from there very comfortably and effectively - when on a long tack.


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## skrap1r0n (Mar 6, 2007)

How are pilot house boats in warm weather? I can see where they would be helpful in cold and/or foul weather, but it seems like it may be a bit of a greenhouse.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

Not with ours, that large overhead hatch slides open along with 2 large sliding teak doors. With the hatches and ports opened in the aft and forward cabins below, the venturi effect creates a nice, naturally convective flow of air.

We feel like we're outside when fully opened - not confining at all.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Labatt,

Regarding the sitting... don't get me started!


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## Idiens (Jan 9, 2007)

TrueBlue said:


> I've yet to see a pilothouse sailboat that passes that test


Then look at the Danish Coronet Elvstrom 38 or LM. They are both designed to be sailed in comfort from within the protection of the wheel house. It was precisely the reason I chose the Elvstrom, the LM is better designed but they only go up to 32 feet, and I wanted more. Both have the trick of opening up to greet the sunshine too. Nauticat goes to the expense of duel positions, but I could not afford them.


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## Idiens (Jan 9, 2007)

skrap1r0n said:


> How are pilot house boats in warm weather? I can see where they would be helpful in cold and/or foul weather, but it seems like it may be a bit of a greenhouse.


Underway, there is usually enough wind to counterbalance the green-house effect. At anchor, spreading a bimini over the boom to stop the direct sunshine reaching the windows helps a lot. The glass barrier then stops the hot air below the bimini from reaching the wheelhouse. Nevertheless, every draft of air is welcome to blow it away.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Cruisingdad said:


> I cannot stand the little craped cockpits you guys think are a danger offshore.


They are only crapped cockpits if you are being chased by a breaking 50 foot wave, and then it's less about the cockpit and more about the scuppers.

The below "joke" photo is the best one I've found, but it demonstrates that you can have the small and safe "footbath" cockpit (the fellow is standing in it and failing to look seamanlike), combined with a flush deck and seating around the perimeter. Combine cushions on the rails and under the bottoms of those "benches", and add a bimini above, and it seats about 10 people.

The traveller is forward of the sailing wheel and the winches are directly on the flush deck, all within arm's reach of the helmsman.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

skrap1r0n said:


> For some reason, in looking at boats on line, the first images I usually look at are the nav station and the cockpit in that order.
> 
> I will say, though, that I do like the looks of the sleek custom pilot house boats.
> 
> The Dix 38 Pilot House model and the Bruce Roberts Voyager 388 are both styles I like.


Both those boats are from the same range as my boat and the Nauticat line.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Idiens said:


> The real pilot house test is whether you can sail them from the inside (get at the halyards, winches and sheets).


It's tough to really sail from the inside of a pilothouse. Of course the sails can be up, and the vessel making way but the visibility is somewhat restricted to sail shape, catching those catpaws on a calm day and the feel of the spray. It would be an awful spot to try and place in a race.

On the flip slide, those blasted bug hatches can be escaped by closing the door. Charts can be left open on the table with a dependable laptop at the helm running "fill in the blank" chart plotter program, sharing the screen with a Captain Ron dvd. In thicker weather green water can splash over the pilothouse and aft cockpit and inside it's dry. It can be snowing on the deck with the witches wind howling but inside it's quiet and warm, so warm that it sometimes produces guilt, but one can get over that easily with a sip of warm soup and knowing that other vessels just won't venture out in these conditions. Cockpit enclosures are very nice, I have had them. But now only a bimini is needed for the aft helm. 
I can not really sail as efficiently from inside of a pilothouse but the tradeoff can leave water behind the stern in conditions that only a fish could enjoy arirving at port not all beat up, half froze, wind and sunburned, and having more bug bites then Madonnas headboard has notches. It is a safer way, a more civilized way to sail, and I intend to keep my mate comfortable so that she enjoys our voyaging. I know way to many marriages whose mates no longer sail with them, for many reasons. I hope to circumvent that. I need her aboard, she is very dependable and has taken advanced boating classes with me and has logged as many sea hours as I. I am a very fortunate sailor.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

skrap1r0n said:


> How are pilot house boats in warm weather? I can see where they would be helpful in cold and/or foul weather, but it seems like it may be a bit of a greenhouse.


Think of a screened in porch with a sea breeze blowing through with your body sitting in the shade, with motion of the swells. Imho it just doesn't get any better then this.

It isn't just helpful in cold or foul weather, it can be life saving in cold or foul weather.


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## seabreeze_97 (Apr 30, 2006)

Kacper said:


> I'm actually headed out with my Girlfriend, who's buying the boat with me(without her I wouldnt be able to buy the Bayfield, lol, she's selling her apartment and we're using some of the cash for the boat!)


YIKES!!!!!!!!!


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## tigerregis (Nov 24, 2006)

One day in the ICW, down to shorts only, no shade. Next day, longjohns, watchcap and floater coat. Anything a sailor does to alleviate the pains of nature are jake in my book. If you haven't suffered, you will, unless you have the gear to offset it.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

RickBowman said:


> It is a safer way, a more civilized way to sail, and I intend to keep my mate comfortable so that she enjoys our voyaging. I know way to many marriages whose mates no longer sail with them, for many reasons. I hope to circumvent that. I need her aboard, she is very dependable and has taken advanced boating classes with me and has logged as many sea hours as I. I am a very fortunate sailor.


My wife is co-captain, and while it was me who found the pilothouse and urged for it as a good choice, she had to sign on...literally! We _sail_ from the aft deck steering station, but we have the option to "retreat inside" and still sail, instead of giving up a 'good day for the boat, bad day for the crew'.

What the boat lacks currently is a bimini (a dodger isn't really needed as the pilothouse and the general height of the "poop deck" keeps most of the spray on the foredeck). This bimini will have to carry solar panels and comm gear, but will also have to fold down for service and "extreme windage" and will need some lashable or snap-on canvas. I saw something another Sailnet poster posted that looked pretty good and which I may copy.

Back to the pilothouse...it's very nice indeed. We need to install a helm seat, but there's a "day berth" to port, and I intend to put in a retractable chart table to port also, and that's where I plan to stash the SSB, the radar and the laptop, the idea being that I want the actual helm to have a clear view forward with just the wheel, the throttle, a depth meter and the Ritchie compass. Everything else can be elsewhere, as I really subscribe to the notion that if you have a plotting display in front of your eyes, you'll look at it rather than the sea in front of you.

And let's face it...on passage you're not going to be actively helming much from the pilothouse...it's strictly a motoring thing...in good weather you'll be on AP or on deck, and if the weather's bad enough to overwhelm the AP...you have BETTER be on deck...unless you hove to.

One big plus...vast amount of handy and DRY stowage, plus a big hatch to reach the engine bay...it's not a room, but it's significantly bigger than a compartment. One minus...it gets stinking hot if you aren't moving. I need to have fans aimed at my head if I'm at dock.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

RickBowman said:


> Think of a screened in porch with a sea breeze blowing through with your body sitting in the shade, with motion of the swells. Imho it just doesn't get any better then this.
> 
> It isn't just helpful in cold or foul weather, it can be life saving in cold or foul weather.


In cold weather, you can seal up the pilothouse, crack an overhead hatch for ventilation and light an oil lamp, the minimal heat of which will send all the damp out of the boat. I have a hanging oil lamp and I am installing a wall-mounted lamp. Eventually, I will install a diesel heater. I follow the precepts of this book:
Nighthawk Marine Ltd. - The Warm Dry Boat


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Valiente said:


> In cold weather, you can seal up the pilothouse, crack an overhead hatch for ventilation and light an oil lamp, the minimal heat of which will send all the damp out of the boat. I have a hanging oil lamp and I am installing a wall-mounted lamp. Eventually, I will install a diesel heater. I follow the precepts of this book:
> Nighthawk Marine Ltd. - The Warm Dry Boat


This winter I installed a 40,000 btu furnace from Heatercraft. It is nothing but a simple fan powered heat exchanger that gets its heat from the hot engine coolant.

Otherwise there is a 17,000 btu reverse cycle furnace/air that kicks out the comfort if the vessel is connected to shore power.

I have looked at the diesel furnaces and am holding off for the time being, although for the type of sailing that you are planning, I would certainly be considering one of those heaters also. A diesel powered furnace can be hooked up to the heatercraft hot water system in the future if so desired. That would then also provide hot potable water besides hot air. I routed five 4" supply tubes through the pilothouse, galley and head. One of them blows directly on the front windshield. One small compartment under a quarter berth was sacrificed for the furnace; oh darn, but I carry to much stuff anyways. That sure was a nice spot to stow the cannon though in damp weather. 

Valiente,

Every time I stumble past another immage of your vessel here on sailnet it looks better and better. I can understand why you have high regards for her, I would also.

Rick


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

TrueBlue said:


> I've yet to see a pilothouse sailboat that passes that test - although I considered mounting winches just inside the port & starboard sliding doors, since the Genoa tracks are located adjacent to each. Turning blocks could be installed for the halyards and mainsheet, leading all lines to the inside helm station.
> 
> With the operable overhead hatch, sail trim can be checked as well:
> 
> ...


True Blue,

What an awesome looking vessel you own. I was able to look at one like yours last year near Mt.Clemens. Very impressive indeed. How is your Nauticat heated/cooled?

Rick


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

RickBowman said:


> True Blue,
> 
> What an awesome looking vessel you own. I was able to look at one like yours last year near Mt.Clemens. Very impressive indeed. How is your Nauticat heated/cooled?
> 
> Rick


Thanks Rick,
We have an Espar Airtronic 4 diesel heater , which is an upgrade to the original Espar 3DL that was commissioned with the boat. Rather than repair the old unit, the cost of the upgrade was not that much more.

It's a very efficient system which delivers thermostatically controlled, forced warm air to 6 separately ducted registers throughout the boat. The boat has uniform heat when away from shorepower while sipping fuel and only draws .6 to 3 amps of battery juice.

We do not have A/C onboard, but after 3 seasons in the northeast, never felt we needed it - due to excellent ventilation in all cabins.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

_This winter I installed a 40,000 btu furnace from Heatercraft. It is nothing but a simple fan powered heat exchanger that gets its heat from the hot engine coolant. _

I plan to plumb into the heat exchange for a simpler solution of a couple of 12 VDC fans mounted in a box that holds a heater core from a car. The aft cabin would be kept warmer and dryer this way. The pilothouse is rarely damp and I can vent warm air from the engine into it if needed. The aforementioned diesel heater would take care of the saloon, which is where we'll be "inside" when underway much of the time.
_
Otherwise there is a 17,000 btu reverse cycle furnace/air that kicks out the comfort if the vessel is connected to shore power. 
_
I have a Mermaid Marine Air system for the same purpose. I use it more for A/C than heating, however.
_
I have looked at the diesel furnaces and am holding off for the time being, although for the type of sailing that you are planning, I would certainly be considering one of those heaters also. A diesel powered furnace can be hooked up to the heatercraft hot water system in the future if so desired. That would then also provide hot potable water besides hot air._

I have an Atlantic six-gallon hot water heater that is part kettle (on shore power) and part heat-exchanger-heated (have yet to plumb into the existing heat exchanger on the engine).

_ I routed five 4" supply tubes through the pilothouse, galley and head. One of them blows directly on the front windshield. One small compartment under a quarter berth was sacrificed for the furnace; oh darn, but I carry to much stuff anyways. That sure was a nice spot to stow the cannon though in damp weather.  
_
Sounds like what a friend did instead of paying Webasto or Espar a lot of money. Warm is fine, but dry is better, I think. It's astouding how quickly mere condensation can lead to wet, miserable bunks and "cabin drizzle". So proper ventilation in some ways trumps heat, unless you are in Greenland or something. You can easily put on an extra fleece or sweater or socks, but if they are damp and nasty, you go from rainy day sailing to the Shackleton Players in one smelly, cold step.
_
Valiente,

Every time I stumble past another immage of your vessel here on sailnet it looks better and better. I can understand why you have high regards for her, I would also. _

Thanks for the compliment. Only the wife and I know that there's a hell of a lot of work to do in the next two years to get everything (or everything _necessary_) in order for offshore voyaging. Luckily, there's not a lot to undo from the previous owners, and the boat as it currently sits is quite livable, but is not ready for the open sea. Few of the floor and settee hatches are positively locked down, for instance, and the wood screws are not the right type for salty air. So there's a fair bit of basic carpentry to do, and about 27 months to do it in.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Many of the serious off shore sailors are sailing relatively small boats. Hal Roth, Lin and Larry Pardee, Joshua Slocum, Webb Chiles, just to name a few. By small i mean in the 35 foot range. Anything much larger than that can't be comfortably handled or maintained by a couple from a financial and phsyical force requirement point of view. the sailing magazines are rediculous in touting all those 50+ footers, Good Old Boat magazine being the exception. Living at the dock only might make the case for a larger boat but a shore based residence would be a better bet for that. And as indicated Bob Perry one of the most respected names in the sailing world sails a small boat.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

TrueBlue said:


> We do not have A/C onboard, but after 3 seasons in the northeast, never felt we needed it - due to excellent ventilation in all cabins.


TB: I like the fact you have some dials above your head...it's a neat way to get current away from the compass and to make space. I am thinking of putting a plotter screen on a pivoting arm so it's "pull down" when needed, like a sunshade in a car.

The first shot shows the current set-up (except there's a newer VHF now). The Raytheon plotter is right and the Marinetek 1980s cathode depth finder is left. It's getting replaced in favour of something smaller and more current that might just be a "black box" feeding a PC display.









The second shot shows that there's a lot of space above and to port for a nav area, SSB built into that port forward bulkhead, or further displays. I am thinking my S-H wind display should go on the centerline somehow. That way I can see it from the outside deck by looking down the companionway. Note the metal frames and hinges for future "battening down" interior hatches...the previous owners never did this, but it could save the boat if the pilothouse was breached.









Lastly, here's a shot of the main wheel. I've since polished it a lot, and oiled the spoke ends...it looks very shippy now. DC panels are at my knees and the less-used AC is to the right on the starboard locker/pilot berth (which I may enclosed for stowage). That old analog battery meter pair below the now-swapped out VHF is to be replaced with the Xantrex SCM display once I get the inverter in. The air vents are for the heat/air conditioning. The pilothouse portlights are 1/2 inch thick and are through-bolted every inch behind that trim.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

longwaterline said:


> Many of the serious off shore sailors are sailing relatively small boats. Hal Roth, Lin and Larry Pardee, Joshua Slocum, Webb Chiles, just to name a few. By small i mean in the 35 foot range. Anything much larger than that can't be comfortably handled or maintained by a couple from a financial and phsyical force requirement point of view. the sailing magazines are rediculous in touting all those 50+ footers, Good Old Boat magazine being the exception. Living at the dock only might make the case for a larger boat but a shore based residence would be a better bet for that. And as indicated Bob Perry one of the most respected names in the sailing world sails a small boat.


That was my point in starting this thread... Until it went way off topic discussing pilothouse boats..


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

Very nice pilothouse Valiente.  As you know, besides the comfort factor, pilothouses provide emotional and physical security during rough weather.

Although we're just coastal cruisers (for the time being), ours has proven that time and time again. My wife is normally the first to retreat to this space, while I endure conditions from the aft helm as long as possible.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

sailingdog said:


> That was my point in starting this thread... Until it went way off topic discussing pilothouse boats..


Sorry bout that sailingdog. Guilty as charged.

"You can't drown a sailor that was born to hang!" 










Now, try doing this in your trimiran.  Did you notice no other vessels at this harbor of refuge? Wonder why.....

BTW, this vessel is 32 LOA










This is a rather nice day to sail, as there was only 9 inches that blew in that evening, but of course after the morning paper and coffee. 










No alarm... for inside its a comfy 74 degrees


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

No worries, I enjoyed the photos of the pilot houses, but they're usually not on boats as small as the ones I was talking about.. 

Besides, I can't rightly keelhaul you... since I don't really have a proper keel on my boat—it's a trimaran..


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## CaptKermie (Nov 24, 2006)

A pilot house is the only way to go here in the Pacific Northwest, wish I had one to extend sailing seasons. As for small boats, I have a trailerable, why... because saling season here is usually about 4 months while the rest of the year it is in my driveway. Consider your geography, sailing venue and cruising style when choosing a boat. My wife and I sail the boat in my avatar and it gets us everywhere in the islands here. We like to marina hop and enjoy the marina facilities so extra facilities are not a requirement on board. The season is short and the boat is affordable and the view from the cockpit is the same as all others.


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## Idiens (Jan 9, 2007)

RickBowman said:


> It's tough to really sail from the inside of a pilothouse.


Not on a Coronet Elvstrom 38. It looks like this:-

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u149/Idiens/JLinZeebrugge0267cut.jpg

As you might be able to see, the genoa winches are port and stbd of the helm and the mainsheet is directly behind. The canvas doors protect the aft part of the wheel house adequately and let in a lot of air when removed.

The nav station looks like this:-

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u149/Idiens/Navstation2.jpg

It is well under the structural part of the wheelhouse and has place for a full paper chart and it's dry.

It's the best compromise I could find between a classic centre cockpit sailing boat and a motor-sailor. I sail it entirely from within the wheelhouse. There is no other place to sail it from....


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Idiens said:


> Not on a Coronet Elvstrom 38. It looks like this:-
> 
> The nav station looks like this:-
> 
> ...


A dismal sky...isn't life grand?










Another day in paradise....










Idiens,

You are right, sailing is a compromise. I can no longer feel a freshening breeze, but the foulies hang on a hook, and not on my shoulders.

Rick


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

A Rosebank wheel. They are really lovely things.

You know, every time I finally convince myself that I don't need a pilothouse and that an excepional dodger and cockpit cover will do the trick you lot start all this again.

Maybe what we need is a nautical version of a metal folding car roof.  Hmm , maybe not. Imagine how long it would take for one of those things to jam solid at sea !!


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

longwaterline said:


> Many of the serious off shore sailors are sailing relatively small boats. Hal Roth, Lin and Larry Pardee, Joshua Slocum, Webb Chiles, just to name a few. By small i mean in the 35 foot range. Anything much larger than that can't be comfortably handled or maintained by a couple from a financial and phsyical force requirement point of view. the sailing magazines are rediculous in touting all those 50+ footers, Good Old Boat magazine being the exception. Living at the dock only might make the case for a larger boat but a shore based residence would be a better bet for that. And as indicated Bob Perry one of the most respected names in the sailing world sails a small boat.


I'm very much a believer in keeping the size down. Maintenance and accessability being my major concerns. That said however it must be accepted that modern equipment, in particular, furling gear , has allowed for an increase in the overall size of boat while keepin it within the limits of a couple. I guess it depends on your definition of "much larger". I believe that low forties is a perfect size for two but others will disagree.

Ignoring things that are effectively used as house boats I like smaller because of the ease and simplicity of the systems. Our current boat is 34'. Jump on board and you are out sailing in 15 minutes. Relatively simple to sail on and off the mooring, can be easily single handed, two people can slip her , scrub her and paint in a weekend, blah de blah de blah. Twenty years ago she would have been for me the perfect size but now I'm looking for a bit more room down below plus the ease of working on a slightly larger deck.

On the other hand I still want to keep maintenance costs and time down to a minimum and that's why I'm not likely to go much beyond forty odd feet. (In fact of course LOA is not a terribly good way to compare boats but I guess it will do for now )

Now, while it is true that many cruising sailors do so in quite small craft, many do it in larger also. The Hiscocks, as legendary a cruising couple as it's possible to find, started off in Wanderer III which was 33' timber. Eric Hiscock always said that given the choice he would have gone larger but didn't feel he could afford the running costs. When they did upgrade to Wanderer IV she was 49' steel and the Hiscocks readily admitted that she was too big for them to handle alone. Wanderer V was back down to around 40' and even after Eric died, Susan was still sailing her by herself.

There is no perfect size for a boat. It all depends on your equipment levels, your personal fitness, your experience and of course your bank account. To some extent it also depends on what you want to use the boat for. Cold climates probably are more suited to larger than smaller.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

tdw said:


> A Rosebank wheel. They are really lovely things.
> 
> You know, every time I finally convince myself that I don't need a pilothouse and that an excepional dodger and cockpit cover will do the trick you lot start all this again.


Twist your arm some more?


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Rick that is a very sexy boat..congratulations...I like it


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Is the pilot house in the above pic and add-on, or part of the boat design?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Giulietta said:


> Rick that is a very sexy boat..congratulations...I like it


Thanks Giulietta, It was a real challenge getting her home...


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Hey...Rick...don't look back....someone's mother in law behind you....


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

RickBowman said:


> BTW, this vessel is 32 LOA


That's a hell of a lot of boat for 32 feet. No wonder you like TB's PH and mine...there's a distinct family resemblance!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

pluscard said:


> Is the pilot house in the above pic and add-on, or part of the boat design?


It's a 1997 design from Pacific Seacraft Corporation, California.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Tell me, Rick...do you bother with a windscreen wiper? I'm weighing whether it's worth it or not.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

RickBowman said:


> It's a 1997 design from Pacific Seacraft Corporation, California.


I like the white "coating"...are you in Colorado???


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Valiente said:


> Tell me, Rick...do you bother with a windscreen wiper? I'm weighing whether it's worth it or not.


Valiente,

Later, the green water cleaned it all off. Thanks for your earlier advice.

Rick


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Giulietta said:


> I like the white "coating"...are you in Colorado???


Giulietta,

Not enough snow for there for me, not enough fresh water either.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Valiente..and rick

You know something..all my life I have seen pilothouses and they really never triggered my curiosity.

now with all you guys showing your boats, I am starting to admire the level of confort you guys get from them, its really cool...

I still wouln't have one, (maybe later), but I am trully gratefull your showing them...I love boats...I really do..

even if they are so different from my concept, as yours are

Thanks for sharing


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Giulietta said:


> Thanks for sharing


Our pleasure...you know I started with a racer and I still crew on race boats when I can, but the steel and the pilothouse are to keep the family safe and the boat going for longer in harsh conditions. I can reef right down to a trysail and a reefed staysail in 50-60 knots (not that I've tried that yet! nor am looking for it), according to the designer, who has a sistership and HAS done this...and I can simply keep going in comparative safety, if not really "comfort". But even there, I have snug sea berths and plenty of ways to rig lee cloths.

The pilothouse actually has its own scuppers...they are currently blocked, but the design idea is to run engine room vents to the pilothose top, and to fully gasket and seal the access hatch (it's big enough to remove the engine to service within the pilothouse, or to unbolt the house top and haul it via the boom out of the boat). If I add watertight doors to the aft cabin and to the saloon, and make shaped plugs on "pull chains" for the limber holes, I have four watertight compartments: 1) the forepeak/workshop, 2) the saloon, 3) the pilothouse with engine room below, and 4) the aft cabin, where I might just put in the SSB.

So if a wave smashes onto the aft deck, it won't likely take out the steering station or the fully supported rudder, and if it takes out the companionway drop boards, the pilothouse can drain without getting the engine room or the living spaces wet.

Those sort of design and construction decisions impressed me, and the fact that it's a four knot boat in ten knots of wind doesn't bother me at all, because it's a seven knot boat in 20 knots of wind, and it's a seven knot boat in 40 knots when reefed down. It's a different type of sailing than I'm used to (if we surf in this boat, it's probably a bad thing, unlike the IOR boat!), but it's safer and more comfortable with a short-handed crew.

There are current boats (my wife wanted a $400,000 Tartan 4100) that have "performance cruiser" characteristics...I nearly bought a French boat, for God's sake...but I think this concept of medium-heavy displacement, semi-full keel, transom-hung rudder and short mast, long boom cutter rig (with brutally strong stays) is going to work for us.

Besides, in a 15 ton boat, I hit things. Things don't hit me. And if they do, I carry a lot of sandpaper, epoxy and paint!


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## Idiens (Jan 9, 2007)

Valiente said:


> Tell me, Rick...do you bother with a windscreen wiper? I'm weighing whether it's worth it or not.


I re-newed and improved mine as they can be very desirable in certain weather conditions. Apart from heavy rain when entering a marina, perhaps the worst is early morning fog condensing on the windscreen when leaving it. They save sticking one's head out.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Question for the pilothousers. I've always wondered what was the purpose of the reverse angle to the leading edge of the pilothouse that you see on some motor sailors in particular the English Fishers as well as on many trawlers (real ones not faux motor boats). I've always presumed it assisted in keeping the screen clear but is that the only reason/advantage whatever ?


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## Tartan34C (Nov 21, 2006)

It cuts down on the glare and reflection from the sun.
All the best,
Robert Gainer


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Pilot House Design*



tdw said:


> Question for the pilothousers. I've always wondered what was the purpose of the reverse angle to the leading edge of the pilothouse that you see on some motor sailors in particular the English Fishers as well as on many trawlers (real ones not faux motor boats). I've always presumed it assisted in keeping the screen clear but is that the only reason/advantage whatever ?









TDW,
As posted, you can see the the Pacific Seacraft Pilothouse does not use this reverse angle, instead Brewer decided to have an overhang of the coachtop. The Gulfs by Capital yachts if I remember right do the same but even increase the overhang a bit more.

As already posted by Robert,

*It cuts down on the glare and reflection from the sun.
All the best,
Robert Gainer*

I'm sure that is true for certain angles of sunlight. Could it also be for other resons besides even astehtic design considerations which could also be a part of it? The Fischer also has a small overhang on the coachtop on the forward edge and when added to the reverse angle should help a little with visibility in inclement weather.

In a heavy down pour or a good snow squall which some pilothousers prefer to the ansy pansy sunny ho hum afternoons when all of the sea fleas and motor boaters are about adding to gorbal warming  the overhang, not reverse angle is appreciated. I know that the overhang over my windshield does add visability as the snow doesn't accumulate in the field of vision and also shades the high noon sun rays for a while.

It still could be mostly a design issue that the reverse angle looks saltier then a square box? 

It would be great if other PH sailors could add their perspectives to this.

Thanks,
Rick


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

tdw said:


> Question for the pilothousers. I've always wondered what was the purpose of the reverse angle to the leading edge of the pilothouse that you see on some motor sailors in particular the English Fishers as well as on many trawlers (real ones not faux motor boats). I've always presumed it assisted in keeping the screen clear but is that the only reason/advantage whatever


As Robert said, it's glare-reducing, keeps the spray off the screen a bit better and you have more pilothouse roof to play with, plus a place to mount a lot of overhead (or forward of one's head!) instrumentation in the handy reverse angle.

It's not "pretty", though, and most sailboats like to look fast even when they're not, which is why a lot of 4-cylinder subcompacts have trunk lid spoilers...


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

I just thought of a question for you guys.
On chilly nights my doger can fog up, much like the windshield of a car.
Do you guys have this problem with the pilot house boats? Do you have a defroster/fan to give you clean vision? Just curious.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

RickBowman said:


> . . . I know that the overhang over my windshield does add visability as the snow doesn't accumulate in the field of vision and also shades the high noon sun rays for a while.
> It still could be mostly a design issue that the reverse angle looks saltier then a square box?
> 
> It would be great if other PH sailors could add their perspectives to this.
> ...


Ours dosen't have a reverse angle either, but agree the design intent behind this angle was to assist in protection from oceananic and climatic assaults. We do have an overhanging brow though, in addition to windshield wipers on each of the three forward tempered glass panels.

In this photo I took just after sunrise, during a raft up with friends last year, another benefit of pilothouses is shown . . . no morning dew on the glass, as occurs on their eisenglass.
​


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## Boasun (Feb 10, 2007)

Try "Fog-X" in a small corner of your dodger. To see if it is compatable with the plastic. If it is then give it a try.
There are 12V electric defrosters at some of the auto parts stores that you could plug in and direct the heated air onto the dodger. But don't get it to close or you will have melted plastic. Something you don't even want. If your cabin is heated then open the hatch and see if that will help. But sometimes the cooking down below will give the air a high moisture content and fog up everything that is colder then the ambient air.


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## Idiens (Jan 9, 2007)

tdw said:


> ...particular the English Fishers as well as on many trawlers


In light rain, the over hang also reduces the droplets that land on the glass and they run off easier. There's various clever treatments that also reduce the sticking power of rain drops. I not sure if they survive the first wave.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

TrueBlue said:


> Ours dosen't have a reverse angle either, but agree the design intent behind this angle was to assist in protection from oceananic and climatic assaults. We do have an overhanging brow though, in addition to windshield wipers on each of the three forward tempered glass panels.


TB, can you message me backchannel with the make of your wipers? Imtra makes stupidly expensive ones, and I am wondering if I can get away with "car grade". Obviously, I want to get it right before I start drilling holes in the steel frames, but I have to wonder if I can't just have watertight bushings to keep the sea from the motors "inside".

I wonder the same about a truck horn, actually. Not keeping it inside, but having a 12 VDC air horn for signalling under the PH overhang.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

After checking multible sources for arm and blade replacement, I actually found three sets at the marina Ship's Store. I believe however, there are very few (if not just one) manufacturer's that make stainless steel units. Distributors package them with their own logo.

I've seen the same wipers with numerous package labels - such as AFI :










This is the motor originally commissioned with my boat - actually a US made product:


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

Valiente,
I should add that my search difficulties were due to the narrow windsheilds and therefore, short wiper arm length limitations. Fortunately, the 14" arms I found were the exact length of the originals.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

TrueBlue said:


> Valiente,
> I should add that my search difficulties were due to the narrow windsheilds and therefore, short wiper arm length limitations. Fortunately, the 14" arms I found were the exact length of the originals.


Thanks. I think my panes are about 18". The Imtra stuff was nice, but was priced for the "my cabin cruiser get five gallons to the mile!" crowd.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

sailortjk1 said:


> I just thought of a question for you guys.
> On chilly nights my doger can fog up, much like the windshield of a car.
> Do you guys have this problem with the pilot house boats? Do you have a defroster/fan to give you clean vision? Just curious.


Aye, a heat duct at the inside helm winshield. Don't leave port without it. 

True Blue, would you mind braging about your Espar Heater? That has got to be the cats paw.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Valiente said:


> I wonder the same about a truck horn, actually. Not keeping it inside, but having a 12 VDC air horn for signalling under the PH overhang.


I have been satisfied with an all weather outside hailer/foghorn that is connected to the VHF. It also has an amplified listening circuit that makes it like having a bionic ear aboard. It isn't as loud as a 3 pipe airhorn but it's loud enough. A handheld loudhailer is also nice to have aboard.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

RickBowman said:


> True Blue, would you mind braging about your Espar Heater? That has got to be the cats paw.


Rick,
I did make some mention of our Espar in this post, a few pages ahead of this . . .


TrueBlue said:


> Thanks Rick,
> We have an Espar Airtronic 4 diesel heater , which is an upgrade to the original Espar 3DL that was commissioned with the boat. Rather than repair the old unit, the cost of the upgrade was not that much more.
> 
> It's a very efficient system which delivers thermostatically controlled, forced warm air to 6 separately ducted registers throughout the boat. The boat has uniform heat when away from shorepower while sipping fuel and only draws .6 to 3 amps of battery juice.
> ...


I'll add more tomorrow . . since it's a bit late.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Hey guys, can you take this discussion of heaters and pilot house boats to a new thread?


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## Neises (Feb 24, 2007)

My smaller boat doesn't have any of this stuff.
I was robbed!


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## CosmosMariner (Dec 21, 2006)

Thank God boats come in all sizes and configurations and even those weird ones with the foldy-wingie-thingies. I started out 40 years ago wanting to build a 36' Dick Newick type tri or a Arthur Piver design. Then as years passed other boats appealed to me. What I realized after a few years was that as my objectives changed so did the boat that best suited them. 

When my son, a life long sailor since he was age 3, told me that he intended to do a circumnavigation I suggested that he do a shakedown or proof of concept sail to help him decide what boat to ultimately take. He chose a Watkins 27 and did a 6 month cruise to the Bahamas and back. He has decided that while the 27 was good for the Bahamas trip that for a circumnavigation he wants a heavier boat for the 'comfort factor' and a longer boat for more room to stow provisions and equipment. 

My wife and I have a Watkins 25 and we have sailed her up and down the east coast and Gulf coast for 20 years. We intended to move to 37 foot center cockpit but ultimately decided the 25 was still the boat to keep to go to the Bahamas each winter and island hop the Caribbean. We are not minimalists. All the creature comforts we want are on board including freezer, R/O water maker, TV, VCR, Windlass, full cockpit enclosure with screens, AC/DC power, pressure water and shower, stove, oven, BBQ grill Avon tender with 5hp motor and we are installing a green house this weekend when we go aboard this weekend. All the ground tackle is oversized and all lines are lead to the cockpit with rope clutches and winches. There are double jib and main halyards and I installed additional shrouds. We have 3 GPS units, 5 VHF units, short wave receiver, marine CD stereo and carry on about 400 DVDs and 400 CDs when we cruise. We have complete snorkeling gear and will get wet suits prior to the Bahamas voyage. We have new custom 5" cushions below and the v-berth has two 2" mattress toppers. Its kind of like a Swiss Army Knife... not the biggest but it has everything we need. We have full length cockpit cushions and when we are at anchor we pour a Glen Morange, neat, for me and a Single Barrel Jack, neat, for the Admiral and sit in the cockpit with some munchies. If the boat was 60 ft I would still be occupying the same footprint (or butt print). We even have SS Martini Glasses and shaker for when the Admiral wants her 'dirty Martinis'. We are never in a hurry when aboard. Being on the water at anchor or under way just being there is great and when we get to a destination being there is great too. 

If we decide to circumnavigate a different boat would make sense because the requirements and objectives would change. There is lots of evidence that many sailors get more boat than they need and wind up downsizing for various reasons. Some get less boat than they want but what they can afford and some eventually size up. There was a great discussion of this in the Good Old Boat supplimental Bullitin last month. 

What really perplexes me is how do people afford to buy $350,000 40' boats in the first place and still go cruising? Maybe the ones that do don't cruise and still have jobs that allow them to finance. In any case there are as many reasons to sail big boats or small boats as there sailors in them.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Cosmos, you are very right and I admire your restraint and your taste. I have a stripped out 33 footer I'm "loaning" for several years, purely because it's a great sailer (if old...a year older than my wife!) and I am used to her ways. As my first boat, I realize I started a little big, but I don't regret that...except for the brown plaid upholstery...eeeeggghhh...

I think 25 feet is too small for me, just for my height and desire to have a couple of "stretching out" spots. I can't easily envision where you put all your stuff, but it must be snug down there... But it's good for you, and it's surely cheaper, plus you can physically handle a smaller boat a lot longer than something bigger.

My wife and I prefer "roughing it" for the type of sailing we like: a cooler, some beer and pop and a portable radio. But we have hank on sails and like to experiment, so the V-berth and quarter-berth tend to have a lot of bags down there. I really enjoy the performance aspects of boats after 30 feet, though, and the fact that yes, sometimes you have to wrestle tillers and winches until you find the sweet spots and she lays down and _moves_.

I am going to voyage in a larger boat, but not ridiculously so, because we need space for stores, self-reliance things like a small workshop, and "classroom space' for our son. But I went as small as I thought I could and still have a safety margin. Were I to stick in the Bahamas, I think I could have knocked off five feet and had just as nice a boat.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Cosmos-

How do you and your wife fit on-board with all that stuff?? 

Valiente went to a steel beastie that would give the Exxon Valdez a run for it's money..


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> Valiente went to a steel beastie that would give the Exxon Valdez a run for it's money..


The difference being I carry oil spill pads and don't commence drinking until the dock lines are secure.


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## CosmosMariner (Dec 21, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> Cosmos-
> 
> How do you and your wife fit on-board with all that stuff??
> 
> When I was in the Navy I learned how to cram '10 pounds of s**t into a 5 pound bag' and make it work.  My pics are too big so as soon as I can reduce them I'll post some.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Valiente said:


> The difference being I carry oil spill pads and don't commence drinking until the dock lines are secure.


I said it was the size of the Exxon Valdez... not that it was the Exxon Valdez...


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## CosmosMariner (Dec 21, 2006)

I posted a few pictures of Wu-Hsin in Galleries-CosmosMariner. I'll take some shots below deck this weekend.


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## CosmosMariner (Dec 21, 2006)

SD - some more pictures of how Wu-Hsin looks with all that gear on the Gallery:


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I am new to Sailnet, and it was nice to hear some encouragement for the fans of the smaller boats. Another good read is A Speck on the Sea by William Longyard. It definitely encourages me to keep on with the smaller boats.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I like smaller boats. You can still feel what the boat is doing, when it lifts and when it's fighting with the sea. Been on some big boats that felt like trawlers in anything under 15 knots. Still nice, in that you're out on the water, but not the same feeling of communion.


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## morganmike (Oct 31, 2006)

Look at MorganMike, heading south to the Gulf on the snowbird migration this fall in a 30' Morgan K/CB sloop.

I do have standinhg headroom though, and I'm 6'2".


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

My Son Fred must have a great mind...look how small his boat is!!  










And my other son Luis...he likes boats already.....


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I thought Fred was racing today?!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

ooops, I see now that it is next weekend


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## Waymar83 (Jun 5, 2006)

This is a great thread...even with the sidebars! I have a 32' (no pilot house... but I do have a BBQ  . I still have three teenagers with me and insist that we do as much as possible together...especially sailing. This often means taking a (or a few) friend(s) along.

I really enjoy that as it gives us more time to "hang out together". We did an 8 day cruise ...2 adults, 5 teenagers and a dog...(dog was'nt my call and I'll never do it again) but had a great time.

At first I wanted a smaller boat (22-26ft) but they are what they are. My wife would NEVER have come along.... 32ft, nice interior, real head, real galley, two cabins (with doors). and still simple to handle ( including tiller).

Do I want a bigger boat? not sure would I move to a smaller one...not a chance....It's perfect.......Now if only I could get back to sailing her....


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## RockoDelray (Apr 9, 2007)

*Great Post SailingDog! Small definitely has advantages...*

For a single hander everything is just plain closer at hand.

And I feel more confident that I can handle problems aboard my Westerly 25 than a forty footer anyday. Just the scale of everything is bigger on a bigger boat and bigger forces to be dealt with.

Rocko

Rocko Delray Likes to Sail, Explore and Travel


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Unfortunately, most of the current mass sailing media seems to believe that you can't cruise long distances safely in boats less than 40'+ long. However, you do have to realize that sailing long distances in smaller boats is not a new idea...and that only in the fairly recent past has the size of sailboats gradually inched upwards. Many of these larger boats aren't really meant to be used as sailboats, but are taking the place of summer or vacation homes—and are primarily status symbols, that will sit at the dock for most of their lives. 

Granted, there are exceptions to this rule... but most people can afford to go cruising, if they are willing to do so on a smaller boat. Generally, the people who choose to cruise on a smaller boat, want a simpler lifestyle, and don't want to bring most of the "ratrace" conspicuous consumption with them. 

Some of the people here will feel a need to go of cruising, or sailing, and have to have all the comforts of home—including a microwave, satellite large screen TV, Playstation 3, washer, dryer, hot tub, etc... That's fine... and a choice they made... but it will often push off their ability to go cruising until they are far older than the people who choose to go a simpler way. 

Most cruising boats are short handed—often sailed by a couple. Much of the time, a person is going to be effectively singlehanding their boat, since their mate will be down below—sleeping, doing navigation planning, cooking, etc. 

It is far easier to sail a smaller boat short handed than it is to sail a larger boat short handed. It is far less expensive to rig a smaller boat for short-handed sailing than it is to rig a larger boat for it. A smaller boat is less dependent on electrical, hydraulic or mechanical assistance—electric winches fail, often at the worst times... same thing for mainsail roller furling... 

Maintenance, repair and docking/marina costs are also lower on a smaller boat.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Good smaller boats are fine if you can't afford a good bigger boat! 
Good bigger boats are fine if you can afford them AND they are safer even shorthanded. Been there...done that and it is no contest as long as the captain and crew are comfortable with the boat. 
Even singlehanding...I'd get the largest boat I could comfortably handle.

I agree that electric winches are a convenience and you MUST be able to handle the boat in a manual mode. Roller furling booms (not masts) are SUPER safe and convenient and ADD to safety at sea as do well desiged jib and staysail furlers. 
We made a decision that we wanted all the things we love when we went cruising and didn't want to go camping or doing without for years and years. So that is the goal we WORKED towards for many years. Thankfully it worked out for us. I could have died while working and never gone sailing if I had been unlucky. But I know I (and my wife) would not be happy living on a small boat so that was a conscious risk I took for the hoped for benefit of comfortable and safe cruising. 
I can perfectly understand those who say go now...go small....Just making the point that going small ends many cruises early for those who cannot adapt to a radical change in lifestyle. It's tough enough to downsize to a 40'ish footer for most. 
There is a reason that the average full time cruising boat today is OVER forty feet (see SSCA survey of membership) and it is that more people find that size better for living aboard. 
Nothing wrong with doing it any way you want to... but there are tradeoffs with any choice.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Me, I grew up equating sailing with a bit of occasional discomfort, and a bare-bones simplistic approach to survival. My Dad always told me never to have anything important on board that I couldn't fix myself. This has proven to be very good advice on more than one occasion.

I sail for the peace, solitude and the process of working with the wind and the waves. I actually like the sailing in and of itself, it's not something that I do to get somewhere else that I want to be. When the passage is finished and the sails are down, my preference is not to be in a crowded marina listening to the TV blaring in the boat five feet away from me. I would rather curl up in the cabin and read or talk by the light of an oil lamp.

This newfangled (but still older) boat I have now with hot, pressurised water and a (primitive) shower and a bunch of electronic instruments that tell me more than I am really interested in knowing is great, and I am making an effort to learn to enjoy the "marina" lifestyle, which is quite different from a yacht club, but I don't think I'll ever really feel comfortable there.

For comfort, I have my house - and always will even if I do end up battling my way across the Pacific one day. For excitement I have my bike, for entertaining there's the cottage, but for my soul I have the boat.

Granted, I've never actually lived aboard a boat. I worked so that I didn't have to. But I can't wrap my head around the "even though I am floating I still want everything that I have ashore". My take on that is - fine, stay ashore, and get a daysailer. Absolutely nothing wrong with that ! Good to know what is a priority and be content.

The fact that I personally don't understand the whole floating condo concept, doesn't make it wrong, and I certainly mean no offense to the many thousands of folk who feel differently, but boats are boats and houses are houses.

I think that there is a certain amount of this spirit in many of those that have been mentioned in previous posts, and that is why they are sailing around the world in smaller boats.

It's not a financial thing for a lot of people - if we sold some of our other stuff, we could zip out and buy a nice gold-plated 6 figure maintenance-heavy, overly complicated machine that raises its own sails, entertains the crew and does the laundry while charting its own course, but if you're going to do that, then why not just buy a Bertram, and tie it up to the dock forever, cause it's not the sailing that you're out there for.

If, you're on one of the big boats, because you want to get from place to place, in comfort, and don't want to spend the money on fuel for a powerboat or can't afford to fly from hotel to hotel. Well, perfectly good way of travelling and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it, but it's a very different approach to sailing.

Not worse, less worthy, or ill-considered, just different...


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Sailorman...
*"but boats are boats and houses are houses"...
*except when you've sold the house and your boat IS your house 24x7...very different than weekend cruising or vacationing or even cruising with a land base to come back to. 
I take no offense at your remarks...or your desire for a simpler path. 
But is IS possible to have an air conditioner and generator and still enjoy passages under sail. It is possible to have a flat screen TV and enjoy a deserted tropical anchorage sunset. It is possible to want to sleep on an innerspring mattress and still enjoy doing your Cetol work.

And CRUISING is not just about sailing. It is having friends over and entertaining. Bringing in friends and family for a week or so and not hating each other by the end of the week. Seeing new places that you could never see any other way. Making new friends in exotic places. And on and on. 80% of a cruisers time is at anchor...why not enjoy that 80%?? I don't see any reason why NOT to have a bigger boat if one can handle the expense and the boat and it seems like most full time cruisers agree with that premise.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Cam - not disagreeing with you. As I mentioned, I have never lived on a boat, and certainly don't think the worse of people who own larger boats. I think it's more a case of my having "compartmentalised" my life (I'll probably be very crotchety when I get old), and my boat is where I go to seek simplicity and solitude. I think that I enjoy being alone more than a lot of other people seem to, and the boat is the only place that I can go and leave everyone and everything behind.

And I am _trying_ to learn how to do the marina thing


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## BocaGrande (Aug 24, 2006)

Saildog, 
Just wanted to share my personal experiences with you. Many years ago I purchased a new Perarson 365 at the New York Boat Show. (It cost just about as much to commission the boat as it did it purchase it) The three kids were small and I viewed the LARGER sailboat as a means of bring the family together; what a wondeful vision! 
Soon I found self spending most of my time in competition with dancing lessons, football, basketball, piano, violin, soccer, horseback riding lessons and a hundred other things that kids wish to do with other kids rather than to go sailing with the parents.
About two years after obtaining the Pearson 365, I was approached by my friend, Bill Robinson who at that time was the editor of Yachting magizine, who asked how the new Pearson was working out. I confessed my delima, that I was spending most of my week trying to get someone to go sailing with, since the kids had other interests.
His advice still stays with me today. He said; ' If you like to sail, get yourself a small boat that you can sail yourself, and if you want a larger boat, rent it! Bill Sailed an 18 foot Marshall catboat for most of his life and never owned a boat over 26 feet long. He sailed in almost every known sailing/cruising area of the world and yet, he said that he spent more time sailing than anyone he knew because he could sail it himself. He firmly beleived in the axiom that the larger the boat, the less it leaves the dock!
We can add his name to the list of folks who beleive that there is merrit in owning and sailing a small boat. Personally, I think boat types are like tools in the tool chest; many different jobs and you've got to pick the correct tool for the job. In other words, there is probably no correct ONE boat for all applications but certainly a majority agrees that the small the better.
Regards,
Bill


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Sailorman...gotha...understood...same here! (G)

Bill...You are absolutely right...the right boat for the right job. That's why mine is for sale now and a nice small one will be in my future (after the RV!).


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Cam-

Is the RV going to have sails on it???


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

No...bu maybe a stik! (G)


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Just remember the Solar Stik isn't meant to be used while the vehicle is in motion...


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## landlockvasailor (Aug 13, 2007)

Good lord hirammchittenden take a laxative ! 

Tom
http://landlockedvasailor.blogspot.com/


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

Mr. Chittenden,

Your comments against SailingDog are in poor form and uncalled for. I would urge you to find an alternative venue for your bile.

I would also ask that the moderators hasten Chittenden on his way.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Hiram-

Did you get a chance to talk to Mr. Perry??? Didn't think so...


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

now back to our regularly scheduled program and my 2 cents

Wife & I are planning on full time livaboard coastal cruising for an extended period. So we have certain things we want (not need) in order to be comfortable LONG TERM...

A bed where I don't have to climb over her to go pee in the middle of the night; island queen.

Room to stand up to get dressed, undressed

A separate shower stall

Plenty of water & fuel so we don't have to stop frequently or be miserly in usage

Good sized galley with good refer so we can eat well

Plenty of storage to carry everything we own as we won't have any other 'place'.

Good size cockpit to hang out at every evening.

Easy to sail as we get older; starting out at 56 and hoping to keep going to 76+.

Fast sailing is at the bottom of the list, we want to be on the water, not racing.

Those items would probably not be on a list 20 years ago but now they are tops.

We'll be going from 2600 sq ft house to a 45' boat so it's all relative. We were very suprised at the jump in space between 42' and 45' so that's where we're looking. Wife likes it so that counts a big heap.

Floating condo that does sail.


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

I say, whatever you are comfortable in, and whatever your needs are. I love sailing Hobie cats, and I drool over Knarrs. I also drool over larger boats, like Swans, with teak decks. This is the perfect place for that all too familiar answer, "it depends!" I like smaller boats for the Bay that I am in, feel that my 34' is the biggest I would want. But, if I venture out and my boat becomes my home for more than a month, I will want 40' or more, just for the surfboards alone!


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Hey Xort...step up to a 52 footer! (g)


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

camaraderie said:


> Hey Xort...step up to a 52 footer! (g)


With a 6 burner Viking BBQ grill on the back? Sweet!


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

Drifter2869 said:


> We all have are on thoughts and resons why we chose the size boats we own. I am loving life on my 34'er, but thats me.


We've got an 18-footer. Sleeps 2-and-a-1/2, just fits into the carport without needing to upsize the car and is comforable enough for weekends pottering around creeks and rivers.

If we wanted a bigger boat (which we do from time to time - for a week away or a coastal cruise) we just *hire* one. All care and no responsibility for berthing fees, slipping, etc...

I'd love a bigger boat.. but stuff it, someone else can worry about the antifouling - I've got better things to do (like sail!). 

--Cameron


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