# No Engine Sailing .. thoughts ..



## jasper (Dec 30, 2008)

I've got my eye on a nice 30' boat. She is in very good condition, hull/deck..
rig/sails/ground tackle .. but :: she has an old, original Atomic 4 gasoline engine. Been there, done that, not going back . NEVER. Since she is a 4 hour drive from home base, kinda puts me at a big disadvantage. For fun, and some knowledge, I called a local re-power marina. $10,000 .. That was for a small diesel, and to get it in place, and maybe the price would be a little more.. 
I mulled and sculled .. Then I thought :: $12,000 sure would buy a pretty good zodiac/with outboard .. In fact, a second hand sure dingy with second hand outboard !! Heck, for a couple of thousand I'd find something very sweet. So, I got thinking .. no inboard. Use just the push dingy. A no inboard motor sailor. At least until boat is back at home port. Anyone do anything like this? 
Is there some work around, besides the AT4? Is there a little engine that could be placed where the AT4 is now? Something simple? I love the boat, but I am not living with another Atomic 4 engine, no way. Those aren't engines, they are diseases. I hate the ... things. Had three cruising boats with the AT4, big pain in the ass.. 

No engine? Any thoughts ? Work around s ?


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

Jasper,

Check out "Wind and Tide: An Introduction to Cruising in Pure Sailing Craft" by Jermone FitzGerald ISBN 0-595-21733-8. That entire book is about sailing without an engine, it is definitely done, I don't know by how many. The author doesn't even talk about using a dinghy with a motor, he talks about having oars and/or a sculling oar to move the boat when it must move without sail power. Check it out, it is worth reading, lots of interesting information. Chapter 1 - "Why Choose to Cruise in an Engineless Sailboat ?"

One especially interesting thing in the book is the argument that sailing without an engine actually makes the boat sail better because it doesn't have all that weight in the back of the boat.


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## MorganPaul (Sep 16, 2008)

> Those aren't engines, they are diseases. I hate the ... things. Had three cruising boats with the AT4, big pain in the ass..


Those old Atomic fours get it done.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

But you keep looking at boats with A4s in them. there are thousands of boats out there that can't be given away. keep looking!


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## Leither (Sep 30, 2008)

I'm with Denise on this one - keep looking.

The idea of a motorless existence may have some superficial attraction, but it sure wouldn't be for me. On the basis that, no matter how careful and well prepared you are, there is always that outside chance of ending up in a situation where the motor is going to save you from death or, even worse, a wrecked boat. The rest of the time, a motor just makes simple things like docking that much easier.

With a bit of patience, you should be able to find something you can fall in love with which also has a nice Yanmar, Volvo or Universal diesel to aid propulsion.

Stuart


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## paulk (Jun 2, 2000)

When you can call the shots, using a tender as a "pusher" can work. When was the last time you called all the shots? I can just imagine you wanting to get into a harbor over a bar in a building 4' sea, trying to jump into the dinghy and tow yourself in before it gets too rough or dark or dangerous to make it that day. We had friends who had to heave to for three days outside a port once, because it was too rough to run the channel -- and they had a 50' schooner with an inboard. Sailing is about reducing the chances of drowning when you can. This is one of those chances.


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## imagine2frolic (Aug 7, 2008)

I have to agree with MP. The Atomic is the bomb, and a great motor. To have the skills to sail without a motor is great, but there will come a time when you wishede you had one. Even Lynn & Larry have taken a tow........*i2f*


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

Don Street has sailed Iolaire a 46 footer for 50 odd years all over the Caribbean and around the Alantic circuit without an engine.

I believe he has finally relented and installed an electric jobbie though.


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## klem (Oct 16, 2009)

If the question is just to do the delivery, then do a repower, I would say go for it in most instances. If there is an area that you will definitely need an engine because of something like current, then think twice but if it is a relatively easy sail, do the delivery.

There are a few options for getting limited propulsion. One is using an inflatable as a yawl boat. I think that a lot of people would be shocked that all but 3 of the Maine windjammers have no inboard engines and use yawl boats and they are operating commercially. The other option would be to mount an outboard bracket on the stern and use that for the delivery.

For a permanent fix, neither of those two options are ideal unless you are a purist and don't want an engine. I suspect that you would really miss the inboard quickly if you went engineless. There is also the cost of the repower to consider.


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

I just can't let all of this go by without poking a stick at it. 



Jerome FitzGerald said:


> The degree to which engines make power-assist sailing trivial is disguised. Sailing, in good conditions, takes nearly no ability at all. One can log off a thousand miles under the keel with hardly touching a sheet. One could be asleep, or dead even, and the boat would have continued along its way. While this sort of sailing is pleasant, it is certainly not challenging, nor does it teach or demand much of the sailor aboard. No, sailing, and "seamanship" does not so much involve the thousand mile passage in ideal conditions, although it is involved in producing it - "seamanship" involves much more that hundred feet of contrary current off the point that one cannot make way against. It involves getting under sail in good manner and entering a harbor with proficiency after a passage. People like to think of themselves as 80% sailor and 20% motor-sailor - although such a ratio is dangerously close to a "yachtman's gale." They like to think in terms of hours underway, or miles underway, for this ratio. This disguises or belittles the fact that without the engine, had they encountered that hundred feet of contrary current and not been able to deal with it - even after a thousand miles, they would still have _failed _to make port. Properly, then, their ratio should be expressed as 100% power-assisted sail, as they would have been helpless without the engine. It is important to note that in any activity that is judged by its completion, a 1% failure means 100% failure... Let us be 100% sailors..."


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## jasper (Dec 30, 2008)

I've owned three boats with an AT4. The F..'n things are junk, pure junk. If it isn't the fuel, its the carb, of the fuel pump, or the wires, or the distributor or the coil .. .. JUNK! 
That, off course, is why the small diesel came along. Anyone who has ever had to live with the AT4, and had their vacation ruined, or ended up paying hundreds of dollars because the junk didn't start, or kept going off .. knows this. The problem? There are some darn nice boats for sale that still have the AT$ in them. The owners are hoping, praying, that some unsuspecting moron will come along, and purchase his boat. The sales pitch is always the same "ya can't kill one, they always run, simple like a lawnmower". Then the poor victim buys the boat. After getting everything ready, he tells the marina to drop her in. It is normally within the hour, that the AT$ begins its assigned role in life; drive the new owner into therapy. It does not start. It starts but then quits. Exhaust gas starts coming out of the exhaust pipe .. the plugs are plugged. The wires are no good. It overheats .. And another like has been altered. The AT$ has struck again. Hundreds of dollars later, after the marina has collected enough to offer its employees a pension and free medical coverage; the thing kinda works. Never really working like it should, just working enough to pretend to work, so that the new boat owner heads for open sea, and the lift bridge.. haaahhaha . the lift bridge .. that is where the AT$ always shuts down. The bridge is up, the current running toward the bridge, and the AT$ shuts down, too late for the anchor, and WAMMOOO.. the mast is knocked down the side of the boat gets all smashed .. and once the boat has floated to the other side of the bridge .. ROAR.. the AT$ comes to life.. hahahahah ... Too bad sucker, the AT$ thinks as it purrs.. hahahahha

Not me.. been there .. done that.. can't wait to take the pile of **** engine and dump it into the ocean.. Watching the bubbles.. as it sinks to the bottom to rust away.. a slow death.. that is what it deserves..


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## redstripesailor (Sep 6, 2006)

I used to have a 28' Pearson Triton with no engine. A4 was pulled and aperture was glassed over. I sailed out of Woods Hole MA, which has ridiculous currents and I never had an incident. So yes, with a little prudent seamanship it can be done. Yes, there will be moments when you'll wish you had one. There will also be plenty of times you'll be glad you don't have to mess with the maintenance and expense of having an engine. I found that I enjoyed sailing sans engine much more than I ever missed one. 

You need to be honest with yourself about what you want out of a boat. If you're looking for something to use when it's convenient you will certainly need an engine. However, if you're more interested challenge than convenience and don't mind wait out wind and tide when needed (sometimes days) then maybe engineless sailing is for you.

Jerome Fitzgerald does make for an interesting read, I highly recommend it. And no one has mentioned this before but there is a company that makes an electric motor that drops into the A4's old mount and uses the existing shaft and prop. That might be worth a look if you're not interested in motoring far and have a reliable way to charge the batteries.


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## bobmcgov (Jul 19, 2007)

The Atomic4 certainly has a reputation as a problematic engine. And they have blown up a boat or two -- gasoline in large quantities is a scary thing to have on a boat. Tho thousands of people with gasoline-powered sailboats & stinkpots apparently fail to blow up every year....

Thirty footer: how heavy? If it's under 10,000#, you could forget about the tugboat scheme and just use the dinghy outboard to move the main boat. Gotta hang the dink motor on the aft rail anyhow, right? Hang it on a lowering mount. A 9hp outboard will push a 30' medium cruiser 95% of what you need. (The other 5%, you'll need to find a workaround. Even sailors w/ big inboards need workarounds, for the 5% chance their engine croaks. It _will_ happen.) Still gotta store gasoline, but if your plan is docking/mooring use only, then an outboard with a small gasoline supply would serve. Cheaper than most diesel repowers.

It is very hard to get by without an engine today. But people did so for centuries and some still manage. Denise has a good point: if the A4 is a deal killer, find a boat that doesn't have one. Most boats don't. I'm like that with balsa coring: some people continue to champion it, despite the vast number of sailboats with rotten balsa hulls and decks. I went ahead and bought a SJ21 with balsa deck, and yup, it's bad. The defenders of balsa can have it -- my next boat *won't*. It's on the Deal Killer list.


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

I am simply not a good enough sailor to go without a motor, but I would like to be. I think if you are good enough to go without a motor then having a motor really is a safety feature. But if you can't get along without a motor, it isn't a safety feature, it is a necessity, and that's like having training wheels, you can easily get into situations where a motor failure could cause you a great deal of harm. I'd rather know how to sail without the motor and then have one. I wouldn't call people who sail without motors purists, they're just sailors who have skills I wish I had.  If I thought I could get along without a motor, I would, not because I'm a purist, but because I didn't take up sailing to motor all around everywhere!


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

Followup - I think motors are mostly for people who have schedules to keep. I could see where a delivery person would need a motor, or someone who charters boats, because they have schedules to keep and not having wind can really cause them a lot of trouble. And I can even see having a motor for people who can only sail on weekends for the same reason, it would really limit your range if you couldn't count on a motor to get you back to port (and thus back to your life on Monday). But for cruisers who are out there and have all the time in the world ? At best I would think of a motor as a safety feature, otherwise what is the purpose ? Maybe if you just had such an active cruising social life that you had to be at every potluck and rally on time, but that's not really my idea of cruising ...


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## mightyhorton (Dec 3, 2006)

Buying a boat with an Atomic 4 is sort of like deciding to start dating a girl with a meth problem, or a drinking problem. You know you are going to have trouble, so why start? I'd suggest you keep looking for a boat with a nice little diesel. Then, you can practice sailing without turning the engine on, but will have it when you need it. The first couple of times you try to dock under sail you can have the engine running in neutral, just in case!

I agree with WindMagic, engines are more important for people with schedules. Without a schedule, and with plenty of food and booze on board, you can just wait for days for the wind to change to make it into home port, who cares how many days? Assuming you are not drifting onto a lee shore or a Navy torpedo firing range. I personally have an engine and like it. Even when I'm living on the boat with no particular place to go and no particular time to get there by, it's nice to just be able to turn on the engine after the wind dies and make it to the next anchorage so I can have a cocktail and a nice night's sleep.

I say stop loving the boat you are looking at, find one with a diesel!


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

I do not share your antipathy towards the A4 engine but we are all entitled to our own opinions.
Beta Marine makes several models of Kubota diesel engines that are 'drop in' A4 replacements. Beta Marine US Ltd. Distributors for Kubota based marine diesel engines and generators for sailboats, yachts and trawler boats.
I will point out that diesel engines have their own set of issues although they are definitely the preferred propulsion choice for a re-power. Diesels can be quite noisy and need maintenance as well.
At least once I had a guest on board our boat while motoring in low/no winds who commented how quiet the A4 engine was compared to his friends diesel powered sail boat.
Good luck whatever you choose to do.


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## cnc33voodoo (May 15, 2008)

I say buy the boat and sell me the a4.
Running or not, ill take it.


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

mightyhorton said:


> Buying a boat with an Atomic 4 is sort of like deciding to start dating a girl with a meth problem, or a drinking problem. You know you are going to have trouble, so why start?


Oh god, I cried when I read that. Ain't it the truth...


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

*I wuz going to say sell it*



cnc33voodoo said:


> I say buy the boat and sell me the a4.
> Running or not, ill take it.


You very well might be able to get $800 - $1K for the old A4 from some masochist who wants parts for their old engine. You really shouldn't dump old engines full of oil into the ocean anyway.


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## tager (Nov 21, 2008)

Yea, sell the A4, and then go sink your anchor in a couple nice gunkholes for those satisfying bubbles.


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## celenoglu (Dec 13, 2008)

> but I am not living with another Atomic 4 engine, no way. Those aren't engines, they are diseases. I hate the ... things. Had three cruising boats with the AT4, big pain in the ass..


This means that you tried to use engines even they are not working. Although it is possible to use a sailing boat without an engine, you should be used to do so.


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## Dirtboy (Jul 13, 2009)

I've had both: with and without. 

Lived in Finland in the 50's and had a sweet little 24 footer with no engine. Had her for three years and sailed her just about every day in the summer (ice boating in the winter!) We kept her on a mooring right out back of the house. Sailing in the Baltic was easy with no engine and I don't ever recall wishing I had one. 

Fast forward 50 years and I'm sailing in Florida now. It's 6 miles and two fixed bridges up the ICW to Gulf access. There is one very narrow section, about half mile long and 100 yards wide and very shallow on either side. I don't like to use the engine but I always warm it up before leaving the dock (diesel's should be warmed before use) and if the wind's on the nose I'm not too proud to motor up the ICW to open water.

I think the local conditions should fingure in to your decision.

As a semi-retired service manager I can tell you (and I have no experience with the A4) timely preventative maintenance would have forewarned or prevented many major problems we've dealt with.

DB


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

On long Island Sound you will have a motor OR a really good anchor and not have the need to get home on sunday night 










I am fixing the freshwater cooled A4 in this CAL 29 BUT a 4HP outboard got it home if it turns into to big a deal i can get the Beta for 6K

And the A4 would sill be fine BUT the PO got lazy changing the water pump  which happens on diesels all the time and just happened on a two year old Beta in my friends boat this summer


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Tommays! I love that motor mount!!!!


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## nolatom (Jun 29, 2005)

You all are ruining my mostly pleasant memories of the Atomic and Utility Fours.

These memories go back a while, when gas was more common than diesel, even in the fiberglass hulls. In the average 30-footer (think Cheoy Lee, Morgan, Islander, Seafarer) they were way too much power (idle, 900 rpm, hull speed, 1400) and ran way cold on raw New England salt water. I did some deliveries then, so the engines were mostly new, and worked okay. They instilled in me the practice of *always* sniffing the bilge before lighting off anything electrical, and closing up everything while refueling.

Now I teach sailing in the OPBC, on sport boats with 4-horse outboard, occasionally we'll have one of those "Motor?? We don't need no stinkin' Motor!!" moments, and will sail down the narrow, shadowy canal and into the slip under sail. But for most close-quarters harbor work, and flat-ass calms (lessons run on a schedule), and just-in-case, I'm happy to have the semi-reliable outboard on hand.

I admire those who are true "purists". But I've also given them a tow in a few times too.


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## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

wind_magic said:


> I just can't let all of this go by without poking a stick at it.


YA ..I read His book...

For me it boils down to the risk of liability of my actions...there are just too many expensive things to bump into out there anymore....I doubt he has insurance nor any tangible wealth to loose if he did ding the wrong guys boat so his way works for him...I would not touch it with a 10' pole.

To each his own.

He is right about one thing..you do have to be in tune with your boat and your surrounding to go engine less...rather that makes you a better sailor or an eccentric is the argument...as most of us when pushed can put our boats where we want them to go....just not when....niether can he.

It has its place no question..but so does an engine in our busy marina's and harbors now-a-days...with others afloat that will not respect you decision to go engine-less causing them to take evasive actions to avoid you.

You choose your path and your liability risk levels and go from there with your choices...its a personal thing for every one of us....I would rather have the A4 headache myself...

Rip it out and hang on an outboard...


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

Great post and observations Stillraining.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

Well

I have boated and kept boats pretty much everwere on Long Island 

Way back in 1981 me and my race dingy had a water front apartment on the patchogue river and lived motor free 

When i went to a 18' boat to please the wife in the same place NO motor sort of did not work out that well as the patchogue river is kind of narrow 

When we moved the 18' boat to South Jamesport you sort of took and ass kicking trying to get home some days without a motor.

Which was a good thing becasue i bought my first J24 and did not get anymore ass kickings 

Then we moved the J24 out to greenport/orient point and while the motor was rarely needed there were times you would have had to have packed a lot of food and water as sometimes the wind did not blow for 3 days 

And now i am in Northport even when the winds blowing you better be ready to sail for 3 hours just to make Long Issland sound when the currents is in full flood and the wind is west


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## sarafinadh (Jun 16, 2009)

Wish I could remember where I read about a young solo sailor with no engine who was wrecked on the coast of Nova Scotia in a storm because He couldn't back off the reef. He was really, in hindsight, wishing he had had an engine. 

We can NOT get in and out of our marina with out an engine, and I don't think our dock neighbours would look kindly on us trying to sail out, no matter how good we were (which we aren't).

I would hate to be limited by no engine as to where I could and couldn't go... and I would really hate to wish I had an engine after the fact...

maybe no engine is ok in some places, but I would say that in most cases, just as you don't NEED radar, Radio or GPS to sail... most folks think it a good idea to carry them in case.

You only have to use the engine when you want to.

Himself has a wonderful memory of a honeymoon with one of his starter wives back in the day when he was perfecting his abilities as ballast and scotch containment. The 44 Bene they chartered for 2 weeks in the BVI was skippered by an amazing Swede who never turned the engine on. Sailed into and out of every port with out motor assist. That guy seemed god like. Something to aspire to, but still, we have an engine, even if it's a little 6hp Johnston Sailmaster...


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## jaschrumpf (Jun 22, 2002)

I've often thought about installing a set of oarlocks towards the front of the cockpit on my Newport 28 and getting a pair of 10-12' sweeps for her. I bet she'd move pretty well in anything but rough water. It'd be good exercise, too!


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## AndrewMac (Sep 11, 2009)

> No, sailing, and "seamanship" does not so much involve the thousand mile passage in ideal conditions, although it is involved in producing it - "seamanship" involves much more that hundred feet of contrary current off the point that one cannot make way against. It involves getting under sail in good manner and entering a harbor with proficiency after a passage.


I agree with those who say that sailing with no motor available is assuming more risk (and more hassle) than is really necessary. Having said that, I sometimes wonder whether the motor doesn't make me lazy with respect to dealing with more difficult issues. Two years ago I was cruising and had the electrical system fail, such that in the morning we could get any systems to work. Found ourselves at the end of the day with a 20 knot wind on our nose and a falling tide producing a 2-3 knot current, tacking into the narrow mouth of a harbor on a 40 ft boat with 15 ton displacement. Luckily it was late in the season and there was plenty of room in the harbor once we got in, so was able to drop the anchor under sail w/o incident. It did make me think that pushing yourself a little in situations where you might otherwise motor can only be a good thing from an experience standpoint. I'm not suggesting taking unnecessary risks or being foolishly reckless, but rather safely practising for inconvenient contingencies - something that I know I don't do enough of.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Putting in a single one on the transom and sculling with a longer oar might be easier and make more sense.


jaschrumpf said:


> I've often thought about installing a set of oarlocks towards the front of the cockpit on my Newport 28 and getting a pair of 10-12' sweeps for her. I bet she'd move pretty well in anything but rough water. It'd be good exercise, too!


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

AndrewMac said:


> I agree with those who say that sailing with no motor available is assuming more risk (and more hassle) than is really necessary. Having said that, I sometimes wonder whether the motor doesn't make me lazy with respect to dealing with more difficult issues. Two years ago I was cruising and had the electrical system fail, such that in the morning we could get any systems to work. Found ourselves at the end of the day with a 20 knot wind on our nose and a falling tide producing a 2-3 knot current, tacking into the narrow mouth of a harbor on a 40 ft boat with 15 ton displacement. Luckily it was late in the season and there was plenty of room in the harbor once we got in, so was able to drop the anchor under sail w/o incident. *It did make me think that pushing yourself a little in situations where you might otherwise motor can only be a good thing from an experience standpoint.* I'm not suggesting taking unnecessary risks or being foolishly reckless, but rather safely practising for inconvenient contingencies - something that I know I don't do enough of.


Nice post AndrewMac.

I think all of these conveniences are in a way self-reinforcing. The more people spend on their boats, motors, etc, the less willing they are to take "risks", as a rule. Sailors without as much financially invested are able to do things like sail without a motor to build up their skills, but as you add the motor, the ice maker, and all the rest, the price goes up and up, until you get to the point that a lot of people are at where they'd really be afraid to do something like sail in and anchor under sail because they're so afraid it wouldn't hold. By that point everything is "too risky" and foolishly reckless, because one wrong move and you're filing expensive insurance claims. At some point the boat simply becomes too expensive to lose, or even sail.

I think of this whole not having a motor thing as being a part of an overall minimalistic approach to cruising that lets you have maximum freedom to do what you want. All these systems - motors, electronics, radios, water makers, they all add up, and though each one individually doesn't make the boat too expensive to sail, collectively they can turn what was once a fairly carefree pass time into something not nearly as fun. Next thing you know you're one of those people who gets upset every time a bird &^$%s on your boat, stuck on the boat because you're afraid to trust the anchor or the weather, etc. The more of these conveniences you put on a boat, the more like a prison it becomes, the boat ends up owning you (credit Fight Club for that thought!)


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> Putting in a single one on the transom and sculling with a longer oar might be easier and make more sense.


The author I quoted earlier who wrote "Wind and Tide" mentioned putting oar locks in the hole on the top of your winches. The book is worth reading, he also talks about how to choose the right size sculling oar, etc.


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## sarafinadh (Jun 16, 2009)

wind_magic said:


> Sailors without as much financially invested are able to do things like sail without a motor to build up their skills, but as you add the motor, the ice maker, and all the rest, the price goes up and up,


I think the minimilist approach is a reasonable one, having something so tricked out you don't use it for fear of getting it messed up is counter productive.

But I think equating an engine with an ice machine takes the concept a bit far. There are many reasons related to being safe while sailing in regards to having or not having a motor. No one ever died because they didn't have ice in their G & T. Even if they THOUGHT they were going to...


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

sarafinadh said:


> I think the minimilist approach is a reasonable one, having something so tricked out you don't use it for fear of getting it messed up is counter productive.


Well I was kind of counting on someone who heats with an oil lamp to agree at least a little bit. 



> But I think equating an engine with an ice machine takes the concept a bit far. There are many reasons related to being safe while sailing in regards to having or not having a motor. No one ever died because they didn't have ice in their G & T. Even if they THOUGHT they were going to...


Fair enough - though people make that same "safety" argument for SSB's, EPIRB's, dinghy motors, chart plotters, water makers, and everything else *except *ice makers. 

It can't *all *be necessary, because 100 years ago people sailed without any of it.


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## sarafinadh (Jun 16, 2009)

wind_magic said:


> Well I was kind of counting on someone who heats with an oil lamp to agree at least a little bit.


ok. so I am busted... Sometimes I wonder if I am a minimalist because it's my nature to reduce things to their simplest elements, or just because I am cheap... prolly both, huh?

and I have to say... my engine is a 6 hp outboard on my Cal28... not exactly a monster, power wise...


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## Waltthesalt (Sep 22, 2009)

I'm replacing my A-4 with a Beta 16. Its a drop in however you need to raise the stringers about 2 1/2". Then there's things like is it also time to rfeplace the fuel tank etc. It's a smaller engine so it fits well otherwise. 12K sounds about right if you're not doing you own work. I'd look for a boat with a recent diesel replacement. You'll never recover the money spent on a repower when you sell the boat.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

There is a company in the UK that charters engineless sailboats. have a look at their 28 footer. Lullaby Class Boats - Sailing Holidays, Norfolk

Only chartered their day sailor myself but it is good practice and great fun.


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## WanderingStar (Nov 12, 2008)

I sailed without motors for about ten years total. Year round, in and out of mooring fields, canals, even marina basins. The boats were a 20' keel sloop and a 26' yawl (four tons). It was challenging and rewarding, and improved my skills. But I learned to handle them under sail while I still had power available. Later the engines were removed. This also restricted my sailing days. Holidays and weekends were rare, tacking out of our narrow inlet in heavy boat traffic would have been reckless.
You probably can use your yawl-boat idea, just think ahead and leave plenty of time and room for adjustments. It helps if you have towing experience. Watch the weather.


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## Dockhead (Nov 10, 2009)

If you can live with a cruising boat with no engine, more power to you (so to speak). 

But lee shores, narrow channels, and little things like docks will become real challenges, in the best case (and life-threatening situations, in less than best cases). You will lose the ability to move in a calm, or move upwind in an emergency. Maneuvering in close quarters becomes a real nightmare.

Just taking the engine out would be my own very last choice, personally, after (a) just buying a different boat with a diesel; (b) stop groaning and live with the A4, as millions of people have done over the years; (c) remove it and fit an outboard on a moving bracket; (d) remove it and fit an electric motor and a small generator (instant series hybrid), in order of my own subjective preferences.

You are a great writer, by the way. Your colorful description of the (colorfully exaggerated) evils of the A4 is a classic.


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## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

It only works for those free of any time restraints *or* willing to not venture far within a tidal swing or weather window the later is not a given.

Sorry no can do..... I still have to get to work in the morning...

Carry on


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## sassafrass (Jun 27, 2006)

no engine....

well i sail both ways, but cruise with an engine, mostly because my boat already has one, and i feel it displaces too much to single hand safely on a regular basis, and for many reasons given here, convenience, time, safety in narrow high current passes, etc. one of the boats i race on doesn't have an engine. smaller lighter craft like jerome sailed when he wrote this book are easier to man short handed with no engine.

jerome used to live in my town, and i have read his books (he has others). i would say he is a principled man. the PNW is not known for its high winds in the cruising months, lots of light air, and we have current here. this is the area where he developed and tested his theories about sail.

sara...i think the point you make is the same jerome would make but on the opposite side. it is different knowing you have power available on a boat even if you don't use it. that is you can make different decisions (because of the safety net) with an engine on board. you can put your boat closer to the rocks, try tacking a channel and fail, try sailing into the marina/slip...you can TRY all of these things without using the engine, but if you have an engine as "back-up" the outcome is known.

jerome states removing an engine will give you substantially better performance under sail. the mass of the engine/tanks is one thing, but the drag of the prop/strut is another. i don't remember but i believe he stated something like 5 degrees pointing better and 1/2 knot of speed. this is a tremendous boost to vmg. i am not sure i believe this entirely, at least that the boats were an even test in before and after engine (without updating rig or sails, or something else).

i think jerome is right in this concept...the last 100yards of the trip requires the most seamanship. by using the engine for to tame this part of the trip over and over in a persons life you do limit growth of important boat handling skills. especially in marinas. sailing into a slip is very rewarding, even if illegal by the regs of you port authority. however, it is difficult to do short handed, or with a heavier boat. warping, and other skills will come into play. jerome finds this element of seamanship rewarding. most people call it hard work.

actually i don't think calms are the big issue (with docking), as you can use muscel power but high winds/cross winds over 25 knots. if you want to go out of a marina or enter a marina without an engine in these conditions, that is going to be difficult to manoever into/out of a finger slip. so your trip will be delayed one way or another.

i would also say most people who have sailed engineless that have responded in this thread had a mooring. this is totally different than sailing into an enclosed marina/finger pier situation. far easier and safer. if i was going to sail engineless cruising, i would anchor a lot, especially in visiting marinas and row ashore or have mooring for the permanent wet storage.

again, most people don't want to do that, but after scoping things out, one can always move the boat. again more work, but safer and more seamanlike.

i think the best way to take jerome is with a grain of salt. there is some truth, but he has found his touchstone with sailing engineless and it is a bit preachy, which i think is understandable.

if you have the skills or want to develop the skills, then by all means get a smaller lighter boat and go engineless. i would say 8-9000 pounds displ would be the most you would want to single hand. add half of that for each additonial crew you regularly have.

a main reason for keeping an engine (diesel) in your boat if it already has one is economic. that is, when you sell the next guy is going to want one, or you are going to have to discount the boat enough to have him get one installed. on a single or double hand boat (older) this will render it nearly free.

this is how jerome got started.

tom


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## nemier (Jul 9, 2005)

This is a fantastic thread! Engineless...the word just reverberates within my soul. I'll be buying "Wind and Tide" by Jermone FitzGerald - thanks for the info. I just love to hear of folk still doing this, there's something so pure about it. I'll report back when I'm washed up on the shore in the PNW, dreams dashed and totally disallusioned, but hey, I am going to give this a go for a season and get that itch scratched.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

I can't imagine EVER sailing into a harbor like Annapolis without getting in trouble with the harbor master, police or whatever. 

Has anyone thought of "sculling" off the transom? Oars would work but they need to be LOOOOONG!


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

A couple of years ago we shared an anchorage in Jervis Inlet with Lin and Larry Pardey's Taelisin, the famously engineless sailing couple. It was Musket Island park for those of you familiar. We did not meet them there, but later briefly met Lin at the wooden boat festival a week or two later.

The next morning we watched them patiently weigh anchor with their manual windlass, put sails up and gently, slowly, patiently, slowly manage to drift their way out of the tiny nook and on to Georgia Strait. They did not have to break out the long scull stored alongside the foredeck/bowsprit.

While I found it inspiring, and for the record in our former marina we regularly sailed into the dock engineless on one of our boats, I can only dream of having such an open schedule that I could deal with the delays, slow trips and waiting for usable conditions, esp in the PNW in summer.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

I'd never cruise without an engine but I do enjoy doing stuff under sail just for the challenge or for the peace and quiet.

Sailing on and off a mooring, sailing on and off an anchor are pretty satisfying things to do. 

I must admit however that I do less of all of that with our 34' steeler than I ever did with our plastic 28'er.


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## Jasper Windvane (Mar 2, 2006)

Well gee wiz.. I started this, and I'm glad I did . I've learned much. I have ordered the book recommended here. Should be good reading. Maybe I should have started this from a different prospective .. here is the issue. Or issues. I have looked at a couple of boats with Atomic 4 engines that are, if not gonners, just about gonners. The boats are structurally sound, good sailing boats, but the cost of repower would be wasted money. The engine work, install, purchase makes these boats a very bad purchase. So, I asked myself, a work around. Something besides a new engine, maybe not totally engineless sailing but nearly. .. still working on it .. thanks ..


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## Dockhead (Nov 10, 2009)

Jasper Windvane said:


> Well gee wiz.. I started this, and I'm glad I did . I've learned much. I have ordered the book recommended here. Should be good reading. Maybe I should have started this from a different prospective .. here is the issue. Or issues. I have looked at a couple of boats with Atomic 4 engines that are, if not gonners, just about gonners. The boats are structurally sound, good sailing boats, but the cost of repower would be wasted money. The engine work, install, purchase makes these boats a very bad purchase. So, I asked myself, a work around. Something besides a new engine, maybe not totally engineless sailing but nearly. .. still working on it .. thanks ..


If I may offer on honest piece of advice, which assumes that your question is sincere and not a troll -- unless you have independent means of support and don't have anything else to do with your time than spend a year or three working through a boat project of some kind or another --

Just buy a boat which is already more or less what you want, adjusted to your means of course. Because every boat, even the platonic ideal of a boat, even say a brand new Oyster, has got an assortment of problems which will filll a whole A4 sheet of paper, if not more. And will always have a list of problems about that long -- you are doing good on maintenance if the list just doesn't get longer. The point is -- you will have plenty to do in the best case, and if you get to sail a day for every day of working on your next boat, count yourself lucky.

If you are starting out already with some major redesign/ reconstruction of the boat on your plate, from day one, well -- actually sailing is going to not be a big part of your life for a good long while. If you just adore tinkering with boats -- and I could understand that -- then that's one thing. But if your real goal is to get out on the water, then just try to buy whatever you can afford which is closest to what you actually want, and then live with it (working through the list of problems methodically, to keep it from getting longer at least). If that means a cruising boat without an engine -- well, by far better to buy it from someone who already did the conversion, than do it yourself. Ditto if you decide on a Kubota converted A4 boat. Best of all -- and what a thought -- just buy a boat that had a normal diesel engine in it in the first place, and go sailing!


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## Capt.Fred (Oct 17, 2004)

It's interesting after all is said, how determined and creative one can get when your back is against the wall. If it's a case of do or die, you will amaze you self at the adrenalin rush and the things you can do. I sailed my 50' 23 ton cutter yawl Daedalus with a blown 4-108 with my mate Carol from Cabo San Lucus to The Coast Guard & Customs buoy up in San Diego Harbor It took five days of tacking and anxiety. After I secured to the buoy I stumbled into the cockpit and doubled up in pain "Carol, please a shot of Ricia" (tequila). We survived. That was back in '79. If you want to see my creation, go to Google, "sail the Daedalus". I sold her in '02


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## Jasper Windvane (Mar 2, 2006)

My last boat.. off of Bidderford Maine .. the AT4 gives up.. 
I sail for the harbor, and at some point realize I'm not going to 
make it .. tack back out, tack back the other side of the island,
and sail in between breaking waves on both sides.. I still can't 
believe I did it .. and yet it was really simple sailing..


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## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

Capt.Fred said:


> It's interesting after all is said, how determined and creative one can get when your back is against the wall. If it's a case of do or die, you will amaze you self at the adrenalin rush and the things you can do. I sailed my 50' 23 ton cutter yawl Daedalus with a blown 4-108 with my mate Carol from Cabo San Lucus to The Coast Guard & Customs buoy up in San Diego Harbor It took five days of tacking and anxiety. After I secured to the buoy I stumbled into the cockpit and doubled up in pain "Carol, please a shot of Ricia" (tequila). We survived. That was back in '79. If you want to see my creation, go to Google, "sail the Daedalus". I sold her in '02


Cool Boat Fred....so I have to ask ...Why the "has-been"

Any problems with sealing that window to the sea?


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

Sailing without an engine is fine . . . . . right up until you need an engine.

For example, if you're entering Nuku Hiva (Marquesas) under sail and the wind dies and you have no engine or no-one to tow you, start swimming. There is a wicked current that sets across the entrance channel and if the wind settles/switches/changes and you are not making decent way, your boat is lost. I know - I was lucky enough to get a tow.

There are times that an engine is irreplaceable and sailing without an engine is IMHO far more dangerous than sailing without an EPIRB (excuse the heresy).


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## sarafinadh (Jun 16, 2009)

a thought here...

back in the day when sailing with no motor was the rule, not the exception, I suspect that berthings and mooring and marinas took that into account.

I don't think you would have seen views like this one? ANyone know if marina design has changed?


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

sarafinadh said:


> ok. so I am busted... Sometimes I wonder if I am a minimalist because it's my nature to reduce things to their simplest elements, or just because I am cheap... prolly both, huh?


This would make a good winter discussion thread. 

30 tips for living with less on a boat ...


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## Capt.Fred (Oct 17, 2004)

Stillraining said:


> Cool Boat Fred....so I have to ask ...Why the "has-been"
> 
> Any problems with sealing that window to the sea?


Stillraining, Those windows are lexan and that whole cabin is also sealed from below with a salvaged Herreshoff teak sliding hatch with a full bronze cover to below Most all the asseccories were salvaged from a 50' 1920's Herreshoff sloop 'The Last Straw' that broke up and sank at Point Conception California. I salvaged all the bronze hardware, Skylights,Winches, Sails, old swing stove, blocks, thru hulls, tracks etc.,etc. That was the most beautiful pile of boat jewelry I ever saw. I knew then I was going to build the boat of my dreams While I worked at UCSB in Santa Barbara, We lived in a boat yard next to a take out taco Factory.
I guess I got everything Except the keel. Then some farmer chain sawed the beautiful hull into pieces, because he wanted it off 'his' beach That was back in '74.

Also, "It is better to be a hasbeen that a never hasbeen."
Thanks for the interest, Capt.Fred


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Sarah—

I think the advent of the parking lot style marina is a pretty modern one. In the older days, there weren't as many boats and the marinas didn't have the density of slips they do today. The density of slips we have today is pretty much impossible to navigate without an engine in most places. The slips are often setup in such a way that the current or prevailing winds will make it impossible for you to either leave or enter under sail. While you might be able to do one, the other will generally be much more difficult. Some harbors, which are far more sailboat friendly, will consist mainly of a large mooring field. Most moorings can be picked up or left under sail.


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## bobmcgov (Jul 19, 2007)

sailingdog said:


> Sarah-
> 
> I think the advent of the parking lot style marina is a pretty modern one. In the older days, there weren't as many boats and the marinas didn't have the density of slips they do today. The density of slips we have today is pretty much impossible to navigate without an engine in most places. The slips are often setup in such a way that the current or prevailing winds will make it impossible for you to either leave or enter under sail. While you might be able to do one, the other will generally be much more difficult. Some harbors, which are far more sailboat friendly, will consist mainly of a large mooring field. Most moorings can be picked up or left under sail.


True observations. That's why motors have become almost unavoidable. Guess you could wait for calm and scull in.... Even some mooring fields are impossible w/out strong aux power, like the tightly-packed fore-and-aft moorings at Catalina. When we arrived at Isthmus cove, the wind was honking 20+ kts straight out the fairway. Our SJ21 was assigned a place on the stringline, but our little 45# trolling motor just couldn't make way. We'd toodle up the fairway, come to a halt, lose steerage, then fall off and have to come around again. We offered to short-tack our way in (we've gotten pretty sharp at that), but the vision of us pinballing thru $15m of yachtage brought the Harbor Patrol running with a tow line. We probably _could_ have made it, but....

(Plan C was to swing wide, tack outside the field, and drop anchor til the wind settled. We did have a plan C.)

FWIW, the passenger boats _Girabald_i and MDR Express -- both big catamarans with powerful dual engines -- both missed on their mooring and docking and had to try again. It was really blowing. That is a consideration -- most sailboats, esp older ones, are seriously underpowered even when their motors are working perfectly. Not unusual to see a 10hp engine in an 8000# sailboat with lots of windage. Their props are not especially powerful, either. In certain conditions, the motor may get you into trouble (eg, halfway into a twisty marina with crosswinds ) it can't get you out of.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Jasper? 

"I've owned three boats with an AT4. The F..'n things are junk, pure junk. If it isn't the fuel, its the carb, of the fuel pump, or the wires, or the distributor or the coil .. .. JUNK! "

If you'd spent an equal amount of quality time, with diesel engines of similar age in similar maintenance conditions, you'd have said:

"I've owned three boats with a diesel. The F..'n things are junk, pure junk. If it isn't the stuff growing in the fuel, its the injectors, or the high pressure fuel pump, or the air in the lines, or the stink of the fuel,... JUNK! "

An old engine that has not received proper maintenance is a piece of junk, regardless of the fuel. Diesel engines have no ignition system, but the subtle problems with diesel fuel and fuel injection systems can be just as bad, if not worse.

If you are not willing or able to pay a good mechanic to overhaul your engine and put it in great condition, and not willing or able to do the same job yourself, and not willing or able to outright buy a new engine (usually accompanied by a new boat) then you are going to have engine problems, regardless of the fuel you use. 

And forget about warp drives, the black-market counterfeit dilithium crystals have made those unreliable as well.


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## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

hellosailor said:


> And forget about warp drives, the black-market counterfeit dilithium crystals have made those unreliable as well.


Funny!...


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

Jasper Windvane said:


> My last boat.. off of Bidderford Maine .. the AT4 gives up..
> I sail for the harbor, and at some point realize I'm not going to
> make it .. tack back out, tack back the other side of the island,
> and sail in between breaking waves on both sides.. I still can't
> believe I did it .. and yet it was really simple sailing..


Did you answer your own question here? Seems that if you can handle sailing in/out of a harbor with breaking waves you should be able to do most anything without the need for a problematic boat anchor of an engine, right? Just buy the boat with no worries about the engine because you've "been there/done that" :laugher

Personally; I would not want to sail a keelboat without aux power, but I look at this from a safety and liability standpoint, not IF it can be done (which surely it can). In an ideal world every sailor would be able to maneuver their boat into any harbor without the need for an engine. But to enter or leave an unknown harbor under sail without hitting something, you either must be a complete expert or incredibly lucky. I've seen this done and it is really a sight to behold when done correctly.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I'd point out that many modern marinas are setup in such tight quarters with relatively narrow fairways that sailing and out of the slip is not a possibility.


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## nemier (Jul 9, 2005)

This whole 'sailing without an engine' thing can not be coupled with normal sailing routines, and that is exactly the point. Consider that there is no such thing as a marina slip, a job, a home, commitments, or anything else that ties you to mainstream land-life. You go where the wind takes you. Your day consists of the sun rising & setting and your absolutely honoured to be consciously apart of it. All that is epitomized (for me) by the words 'sailing without an engine'. It's beautiful!

Btw, my wife thinks I've completely lost it, & so do my kids for that matter, but I can't keep the dream repressed for much longer.


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

nemier said:


> This whole 'sailing without an engine' thing can not be coupled with normal sailing routines, and that is exactly the point. Consider that there is no such thing as a marina slip, a job, a home, commitments, or anything else that ties you to mainstream land-life. You go where the wind takes you. Your day consists of the sun rising & setting and your absolutely honoured to be consciously apart of it. All that is epitomized (for me) by the words 'sailing without an engine'. It's beautiful!
> 
> Btw, my wife thinks I've completely lost it, & so do my kids for that matter, but I can't keep the dream repressed for much longer.


I think it's cool nemier. 

RESPECT ... I totally respect anybody who sails without a motor.


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

Why not just get a stern engine mount for your sailboat. Use the engine from your dinghy. $2500 for a brand new 20hp Tohatsu at Defender. At 117 pounds you can put it on and off with the help of a halyard. Buy something a little smaller if that's too much weight. Get one with electric start so you can charge your batteries. Then take the old engine out and use the space for food storage of to STORE (not run) an little Honda generator. 

When the engine died on my Victory 21 I would paddle it. Did it that way for years. Put your knee next to the tiller and steer with a little bit of pressure to counteract the force of paddling on only one side of the boat. It made me a better sailor, especially in light winds. Fortunately the dock was easy to get into.


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

BY the way, there's an Atomic 4 on eBay right now. I think it's at $450.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

All engines need proper maintenance or they're "junk" eventually. I agree with hellosailor on this point. I think you should know how to sail into a tight spot. But in this day and age I don't think you should always rely on sailing. There are places you just are not able to visit under sail. In B.C. I can think of several places where you are not allowed to sail. False Creek in Vancouver, under the Lion's Gate Bridge in Vancouver I believe, and most definitely in Victoria Harbour where I live aboard. Victoria Harbour is I believe unique in Canada as it is not classified as a harbour as much as an International Airport with 180+ take-offs and landings daily. No sailing period. And there are probably many more elsewhere. 
Brian


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Not sure where Jasper is, but here's what looks like a good boat for a very reasonable price that's been repowered with a 13hp 2 cylinder Westerbeke.
It's in Boston. Tartan 27 Sailboat (hull #220)
Brian


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## mccary (Feb 24, 2002)

lporcano said:


> Years ago I had a 25' boat with an outboard that decided to stop running. Rather than not sail while I waited for it to be repaired, I sailed with no engine for a month.


IN 1978, my wife and I had saved our pennies and purchased a new Seafarer 22. To save some money, we had a used outboard. It died the first week! But, rather than NOT sail, we sailed all summer and into the next season without an engine. Our slip was on the inside of a narrow channel that it seems we always had to tack through. But, after a few trips we sailed with ease. The Chesapeake Bay is known for its light winds in summer, so occasionally we had to quit early to make it home. We were never towed in, but knew that was always an option.

Today, over 30 years later, I sometimes sail into my slip and think back to those enginless times fondly.

Also, lets not forget; the British blockaded the French coast for over 20 years and NEVER lost a single ship! Those ships were not exactly easy to tack and not very close winded. I thought of that when I was beating into my slip.


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## Blin (Aug 15, 2011)

Ok, here goes! I am new here but was advised there would be a sailboat in my future by a minister on St. Thomas. Well, where is it? This may well seem like it should be the last place a newbie should be but this is where I am at in my desires for a boat. Going electric has been in the forefront of my plan for a boat, with going without a probability. There have been some very interesting posts here with even the negatives giving good cause to go without. Here's to ya as I know there will be much gleaned from this and to hopes that I may inspire someone to act rather than react.

Everybody's searching for the end of the rainbow. I'm just trying to smell the rain. - Mike McClure


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## Sublime (Sep 11, 2010)

wind_magic said:


> Followup - I think motors are mostly for people who have schedules to keep. I could see where a delivery person would need a motor, or someone who charters boats, because they have schedules to keep and not having wind can really cause them a lot of trouble. And I can even see having a motor for people who can only sail on weekends for the same reason, it would really limit your range if you couldn't count on a motor to get you back to port (and thus back to your life on Monday). But for cruisers who are out there and have all the time in the world ? At best I would think of a motor as a safety feature, otherwise what is the purpose ? Maybe if you just had such an active cruising social life that you had to be at every potluck and rally on time, but that's not really my idea of cruising ...


I think this sums it up quite nicely. If you need to go against a current and the conditions don't allow you to overcome the current, then you'll just have to wait for more favorable conditions.
I've had to sail without a motor. You have to have a good weather eye and you need several hours of cushion on your time in case conditions change and becomes a big PIA to return. Wind shifts, dieing winds, all of that becomes a much bigger issue. 
Also, most marinas are set up with boats having power in mind. Coming and going under sail requires some room. I think I could get my 26' boat out but some of the guys using the same size passage way with 50' boats could have trouble. It's also dependent on the wind direction. The prevailing winds would push my boat out, I could sheet in and be gone. Those with stern to the wind wouldn't be able to get out as often.

As far as rowing or sculling, you'd have to have a boat where the design had that in mind. My Drascombe is designed where you can row and scull. It requires 10' oars (this on a low freeboard dinghy-I'd hate to see what my hunter would need) so in tight spaces you have to scull. I need more practice but it's not like trying to move a kayak and that's only an 800lb boat. Even the pros look like they work pretty hard to get it to move a little.

Sailing without a motor is possible, and I think all sailors should be able to dock under sail since motors aren't 100% reliable. I think most could, it just wouldn't be pretty.
But sailing without a motor is not nearly as romantic as it sounds.

As far as weight on the transom, I think designers are taking into account that there will be a motor on the transom.

All that said, I wonder what the big tall ships did when they got to port considering motors weren't even around at that time. Did they have rowable tug boats? :laugher


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## steel (Sep 1, 2010)

chrisncate said:


> Well.. if the motor craps out, and you are in a place you _can't_ sail..


Use the anchor and try to get a tow!


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

I am really thrilled with my mooring neighbors recent attempt to avoid a tow and its only setting him back 1500 dollars


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Tell us what happened please.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

He had motor trouble returning from Block Island in dead calm conditions BUT the wind picked up and as anybody would sailed home and things were fine till the last 50'

The mooring field is* rather tight* and when its blowing up towards 20 knots a boats that is fully loading the mooring will have its stern within about < 10' of the slack mooring ball your trying to pickup with boats to both sides  so you cant really screw up very much

The launch service is use to the issue and will come out and get you on SAFE which is what the did anyway as he was stuck there and did a quick Anchor job before any further carnage of the field

All and All it could have been MUCH worse


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

He speared you amidships? That's too bad but at least you know who did the damage and I'm guessing he will make good on it. 

Our entire harbor is motor only so we don't have that issue - but some are bad enough under power.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

I steered a Hunter 33 without rudder for about an hour one time.. wasn't real difficult on the river. used wind and current to keep her from running aground while the owner got the cable back on the quadrant.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

Chris we do distance races all the time and it's pretty common to have to anchor and wait till you can sail again to finish the race 

When I go out for two hours on a weeknight that is not really and option 

Part of mooring a boat in a 1000 boat field is it's gonna be tight and there NOT staying still like a dock and when it's blowing 20 there moving around a LOT


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

The anchoring is fine and correct of course, I should have been more clear... 

Calling for a tow on the other hand... 

(a tow in a mooring field by a mooring field sponsored vessel is also fine, I was speaking more generally overall, really..)


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

chrisncate said:


> The safety argument always biases towards an engine by default it seems.
> 
> _With_ an engine... you can get into places/deal with currents and wind that you cannot under sail (as the argument goes).
> 
> ...


I've gotta ask, from where does this distrust of yours of things mechanical derive? Have you actually experienced engine failures on boats that placed you in an untenable situation? Or, is this all just "theoretical"?

In my experience, the diesel engine is one of the most reliable devices ever created by man... Hell, life would be a piece of cake, if everything were as simple, straightforward, and robust as a properly maintained diesel engine... I've been delivering boats for over 30 years, and never ONCE have I found myself in a situation that couldn't be dealt with due to an engine "crapping out"... And, anyone who repeatedly finds themselves in such situations, well - chances are it's not the engine's fault...

Best of all worlds, it seems to me, is to have an engine, but sail as if you don't...

Again, I can appreciate your desire to sail and cruise as purely as you can, that's great... But I'm a bit puzzled with what seems to be a bit of an obsession with the potential for engine failure, it's really an exceedingly rare occurrence, in my experience...


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

chrisncate said:


> So basically just accept that you are so reliant on a motor for your sailboat that you can't do anything else but drop the hook and call for help? No thanks (but you did highlight my point... ).
> 
> A variety of sails and some nice sweeps (and maybe a sculling oar to boot), coupled with a little skill can do much more than many think they can.
> 
> *They should call this place MotorSailNet..*.


You have an awful lot of disdain and mouth for someone who hasn't even gotten underway yet.

Although I disagree with your choices, I fully support your right to make your own decisions and I refrain from disparaging you. If you disagree with everyone else's decision to employ auxiliary propulsion that's fine, but keep the snark and the insults to yourself.

If you had even 5% of the sailing experience of your engine-less heros that you constantly refer to, then maybe I'd agree that you'd earned the option to be such a snit. Why don't you save the disdain until you've made your first engine-less trip down and back up the ICW? Then you can tell us how it's done.


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## OtterGreen (May 10, 2011)

i think it is a safety issue to be honest. i would be a little more than angry if a boat that size was trying to maneuver around my or anyone elses boat without an engine. engine failure is one thing. no engine is another.


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## OtterGreen (May 10, 2011)

i agree it is good practice to be able to dock a boat with no motor. but as i have stated in previous posts, for someone with a slip like mine it is not an option. i can sail OUT of the slip with an east wind, but it is lined with very expensive homes with very expensive boats. narrow and no wind reaches the canal except very hard west or an east wind. its just not an option. too risky. i would be livid if someone hit my boat because they were practicing an engine out procedure if the engine they had was working.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

If anyone is in the UK and fancies a go at engineless sailing there is a company called Hunters Boatyard that will charter you a yacht that has no engine. In fact none of the yachts they charter have engines. They are all wooden classics [the largest will sleep 4/5] and available to rent.

The boats have a variety of sail plans but all are optimised for short tacking up the narrow channels threading through the Norfolk Broads.

Lovely boats on which to do a bit of proper sailing, the ale in the waterside pubs is good too. Ask me how I know this!


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

If, when sailing a boat larger than you can easily row, without a working engine, in areas where there is large commercial traffic and you lose your wind, you become a hazard to navigation, likely putting others and yourself at risk.

Dabnis


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

So Chris, how many hundreds or thousands of miles have you sailed without an engine?


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

chrisncate said:


> Motors (diesels) are reliable, and they can fail like any system, these are just the facts. They run well, and properly maintained should preform as expected. I have no issue with this. The part I never get about the motor folks who swear by the safety issue, is the fact that if you can't sail somewhere (or handle a situation) without your motor, it's maybe not a great argument to call it a safety thing then...


Personally, I wouldn't necessarily go so far as to brand an engine as a safety issue, but it can certainly be a pretty damn effective thing for a sailor to have in his bag of tricks on occasion... I would guess there have been more than a handful of instances over time, where having an engine could have saved the bacon of even the most skilled and prudent engine-less cruiser...



chrisncate said:


> Plus, as someone who takes great pride in handling my boat, I find it somewhat insulting when people dismiss the skill it takes to handle a sail only vessel in certain situations - as if a motor somehow removes the need for sailing skills, while at the same time adding safety.


Frankly, I don't see many people here dismissing such skills required to go without an engine. Personally, my admiration for what folks like the Pardeys have accomplished is boundless...

It's just not for me, however - it would be virtually impossible for me to go much of anywhere from where I live and keep my boat without an engine. And, as I've said previously, there are so many cool places I never would have made it to without an engine, so I'll accept the tradeoff...

For me, life is too short to go cruising without an engine... I like to keep moving and see as much as possible when I'm out there, and very often an engine can increase your time to explore exponentially... Sometimes, spending an hour or two ghosting into an anchorage under sail can be just what the doctor ordered... Other times, getting in early enough to spend some time ashore or exploring before darkness falls might be preferred, and having an engine simply gives one such options...



chrisncate said:


> Some factors for us were our small boat, living aboard cruising year round, costs, personal satisfaction at not needing to feed an oil company, the overall engineering theme of our refit (simple systems, simple reinforced boat, no thru hulls), no motor in our living room, etc. Think about what a Yanmar 2GM occupies in an Alberg 30.. under the _best_ circumstances it's horribly loud in the cabin and smells like a diesel engine where you live.


Again, those are all good reasons for going without... Except the last, perhaps - there is simply no need for a small boat to smell like diesel, it can easily be avoided with a proper installation and maintenance, and good ventilation of the machinery space...


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

Think of an engine as a safety device, particularly where there are currents, and most particularly with tidal currents. An added safety device is membership in SeaTow or TowBoatUS (for when your engine fails and safe harbor is directly upwind with an increasingly foul current and sundown approaching.)

Using a typical tender as a tugboat in all but the calmest conditions is not a serious option.


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

mitiempo said:


> So Chris, how many hundreds or thousands of miles have you sailed without an engine?


500 billion miles.

You all win, I should have known better than to open my pie hole in a motorless thread.

As always, I appreciate the decent attempts at responding to my posts.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

chrisncate said:


> Meh, so I have my opinions... why not just handle it without all the chastising and snakiness yourself?
> 
> <snip>
> 
> ...


You have been very open online about your sailing resume, I've had no need to "guess".

My whole point is, you talk the talk, but you don't walk the walk. It's pretty screwed up to insult people who use their engines when you haven't even set out on your grand, engineless cruise yet yourself.

Once again- I am not at all disparaging your choice to sail engineless. I could care less. You are so hypersensitive to criticism these days about engineless sailing, that now you lash out at anyone who even remotely questions the concept. What I'm busting your balls about, is you throwing paint all over the entire forum about what a bunch of motorsailers we all are just because we don't aspire to your level of purism.

Once you move aboard, and sail engineless down the ICW and bounce around the Bahamas and come back, you can tell us what a bunch of loser, motorsailers we all are for polluting the pureness of sailing. 

Until then, you only _aspire_ to engineless sailing. It's admirable, go for it, and stop slinging s**t until you've done it.


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## emoney (Jun 2, 2010)

chris, I find it interesting that you commented on the "argument aspect" of such threads, and as you enter, it begins. Just an observation, as we all should choose our verbage more wisely than we do, I'm afraid, and yes, I would agree, the "Motorsailnet" comment was the beginning of said 'argument'. Again, just an observation.

As to the whole "engine vs. engineless" idea, I would say to each his own. I do, however, find it ironic that we mention the boats of centuries ago when it was those very type people who found a way to get a motor on a sailboat in the first place. I assure you, had there been a more efficient way to enter/exit a harbor, etc., they would've more than likely chose such, and we're having this mild debate on the internet, of all things. The bottom line, to me anyway, is that engines are an "improvement" to the concept of sailing, because if I didn't have one, I wouldn't be able to sail. At least as I desire. I am lucky enough to live on a main channel, but with a zero-lot-line. The builders, in their infinite wisdom at the time, chose to put my dock-lift combo and the far west end of my lot while putting my neighbors at the far east end of his. You may have guessed it, he's west of me, so both our 27' sailboats have about 2' separating them, my bow to his stern. Couple that with the fact that our private channel is only about 18' wide in some spots, and once you're outside it, the continental shelf greets you at about 2 feet. I've known some very skilled sailors...lifelongers if you will, that wouldn't consider bringing a boat into my house under sail alone. It's not "prudent". 

Now, if I was retired, and didn't own this house, and lived on my boat, and was currently on my 3rd trip around the world, with no particular agenda.....heck yeah I'd like to have the extra storage. We're all similiar, yet worlds apart.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I wish you would all refrain from quoting the one and only poster on my ignore list.... I then have to read the dribble anyway. The constant disagreeable nature just isn't worth my time.


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## OtterGreen (May 10, 2011)

just like in surfing, people tell me , geez otter, you surf till end of november in a 3/2 wetsuit! youve got balls! nope.. im cheap. i could call myself a purist, but i dont. i dont feel like buying a 600 dollar suit if i dont have too. just because someone gets into the whole engineless debate about how motors are the devil, chances are they are too cheap, broke to afford one, like justifying a bad decision. im not saying the poster is or isnt, its just my observation. take me with my new suv.. moonroofs, leather and heated seats are great. i could say nah , all that stuff is meaning less blah blah but i just didnt want to shell out an extra ten grand for it, i dont say well moonroofs and leather are a horrible choice, and anyone who has them is a wimp for wanting/ having them. the poster will see the first time hes trying to get in or out of a tidal surging inlet while impending doom looms in the shape of a jagged jetty. alot of steel hull boats have become a statistic on the jettys here in NJ. a fiberglass boat stands no chance. good luck and godspeed.


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

Reading this brings back some memories about my Dad. We were in partnership on a Coronado 25, sailing out of Sausalito on SF Bay for 10 years. As he had many, many years of sailing experience on the Bay he was considered the "Captain". He fiercely hated to run the motor except for the 2 hour run outside to get to Double Point to fish for Salmon. One day, with my wife and our two small daughters aboard we were becalmed on the east side of Angle Island. It went something like this: Me:" Dad, there is a ship closing on us with a big bow wake, we better start the motor and get out of the way",
Dad: "we can make it, I will scull with the tiller" Me:" he is gaining on us fast" Dad:" we can make it". I then pushed past him, lowered and finally started the motor. The ship passed us no more than 50 to 100 yards away, way too close. Me: " What the he*l
were you thinking, we were almost rundown", Dad:" We could have made it". Interestingly, the ship never blinked, no course or speed change, no 5 blasts from the whistle (horn?), nothing. If the motor had not started we would have all been killed.
Feel free to sail a boat you can't row in waters that have commercial traffic, it is a free country.

Dabnis


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## Undadar (Mar 24, 2011)

I really admire you guys that are engine-less. That conjures up great images of the good old days. However; I know I am years away from having the experience/skills/knowledge to do such a thing. Getting into a slip or anchorage WITH an engine is often a stretch for my skills - maybe someday.

JdFinley.com | Sailing, development, and life with JD


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## glassdad (Feb 21, 2009)

If you want to sail enginless, that is your choice. I do not have the skills or the inclination to go that route. If you want to go into some harbors, Avalon or isthmus in Catalina for example, you NEED an engine. The harbor master requires it. My slip can be sailed into if you are skilled enough, but I will only do it if I have an engine failure. 

For all the enginless sailors out there, what do you do when you are on a lee shore in an area of poor holding for your anchor with a storm comming. I start the engine and get out of there. 

People have said that in the past, ships did not have engines and they got around. Many of them did not get around dangerous points. The area around Point Conception north of Santa Barbara, CA is littered with shipwreaks. Sometimes an engine will save your life. 

Several years ago, my wife and I were in a rented Catalina 27. We went out for a day sail around Anacapa Island. As we were passing through the slot between Anacapa and Santa Cruz Island a strom came up. The winds were about 50kts and the seas were 12' to 15'. The weather was predicted to be 10 to 15 kkts all day. We dropped the sails and motored out of the slot. As we cleared the islands, the wind calmed down to 10 kts. We had a pleasant sail home. The engine saved our bacon on that day. 

I would not leave the slip without a working engine now.


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## WindchaserPY23 (Dec 29, 2010)

Well, to tell the truth our PaceShip PY23 has a 9.9 Johnson hanging off the back of it but we try not to use it except for safety and charging the battery. I'll admit that some days it does take a while to moor or slip a mooring in becalming winds but it is all part of learning how your ship handles. Kind of like parallel parking after years of mall parkades, it gives you a sense of pride and accomplishment. If you like the boat then get a lowering motor mount on the transom and you can stop worrying about your money and safety.


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

"Regarding your lee shore question, what would you do in that situation? I'd prolly try all my hooks until one grabbed, or maybe I'd claw off, I dunno.. I'd have to have more info on the variables of the scenario to give you a better answer.["/QUOTE]

Chris,

I am not familiar with the waters you sail in. If losing power or not having any to begin within the SF Bay or outside ocean areas it could be challenging.
In the ocean waters outside the Bay much of it is deep right up to the shore line with a rocky bottom, very hard to get an anchor to hold. Also, high ridges tend to blanket the wind close to the shore line. Inside the Bay after you get past the entrance, about a mile or so in, it is not too deep with a mud bottom allowing one to anchor if necessary, but not in the ship channels. I suppose a lot depends on the area you sail in? As mentioned earlier, Commercial traffic is a big threat if you are dead in the water. The Duck boat back east that had engine trouble, anchored and was then promptly run down by a barge comes to mind.

Dabnis

Dabnis


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## nolatom (Jun 29, 2005)

Getting past who has the wrong or right 'tude for the moment, has anyone suggested towing a dinghy with a small outboard? It's fun for exploring ports and shallow places once you're anchored, and you could hip it up to you in calm weather and just steer from your tiller, especially in those narrow marina streets and alleys where power can be handy.

I've done this on occasion, though not as a steady diet. Worked pretty well. And you could always use it on a transom bracket, though the long shaft for that might make you kinda deep on the dinghy.

I'm staying away from the lee shore in snotty weather discussion. A hipped-up dinghy isn't for that obviously. But for the everyday stuff it could be.


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

nolatom said:


> Getting past who has the wrong or right 'tude for the moment, has anyone suggested towing a dinghy with a small outboard? It's fun for exploring ports and shallow places once you're anchored, and you could hip it up to you in calm weather and just steer from your tiller, especially in those narrow marina streets and alleys where power can be handy.
> 
> I've done this on occasion, though not as a steady diet. Worked pretty well. And you could always use it on a transom bracket, though the long shaft for that might make you kinda deep on the dinghy.
> 
> I'm staying away from the lee shore in snotty weather discussion. A hipped-up dinghy isn't for that obviously. But for the everyday stuff it could be.


Another possibility would be to have some kind of power available, inboard or outboard, but never use it unless you, or somebody else, are in danger of assuming room temperature, That way you could pretend you are pure but with a way out to stay alive.

Dabnis


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

dabnis said:


> "Regarding your lee shore question, what would you do in that situation? I'd prolly try all my hooks until one grabbed, or maybe I'd claw off, I dunno.. I'd have to have more info on the variables of the scenario to give you a better answer.["/QUOTE]
> 
> Chris,
> 
> ...


I guess it is called "DUKK" boat? Here is a link to the story:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/seamanship/66265-had-happen-duc-overturned-phila-pa.html

Dabnis


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## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

LOL, how did I miss this beauty of a thread?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I would love to see the no-engine zelots use one of those sculling oars or sweeps on my boat. The last time in history they were used on a 45,000 lb boat, the rowers wrists were chained to them.


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

LandLocked66c said:


> LOL, how did I miss this beauty of a thread?


I put many an hour behind a scull oar in my scull boat hunting ducks. I think one would need a really long oar and a lot of muscle power to effectively move a larger sailboat? Sounds good but not sure how practical it would be?

Dabnis


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## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

Minnewaska said:


> I would love to see the no-engine zelots use one of those sculling oars or sweeps on my boat. The last time in history they were used on a 45,000 lb boat, the rowers wrists were chained to them.


That sounds very unsafe! I would recommend you downsize to a safer boat that you could manage if/when your engine fails...


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## glassdad (Feb 21, 2009)

Chrisncate, if push came to shove, I probably could have sailied out of the storm. But in a rental boat of unknown maintanence history, it would not have been smart. I beleive an engine is a vital piece of gear and would not leave the dock if it was not working. 

Sailing for me and my family is a fun sport. I don't want it to turn into a life or death situation if I can avoid it.


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

All of this has been an interesting read but probably didn't change anybody's mind about anything. Chris, let us know how it works out to be engineless.

Dabnis


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## emoney (Jun 2, 2010)

I wonder why there isn't a great "Rudderless Sailing" debate? I mean, if we're truly purists, purist, then they probably started without one.


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## OtterGreen (May 10, 2011)

would and insurance company see this as an unnecesarry risk if something were to happen and you were completely without engine? sorry if thats been covered before


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## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

emoney said:


> I wonder why there isn't a great "Rudderless Sailing" debate? I mean, if we're truly purists, purist, then they probably started without one.


I'll take it further with sail-less sailing! Drifting is the purest form of boating and cheapest! :laugher


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Lose the boat while you're at it. Just go swimming.


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## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

BubbleheadMd said:


> Lose the boat while you're at it. Just go swimming.


Now you're getting radical! :laugher


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## glassdad (Feb 21, 2009)

Chrisncate: You said "Keep in mind that the motorless cruising sailor typically wouldn't be in a rental boat situation either, there is a difference in the overall way you sail when you know ahead of time that you have no motor. A boat in distress isn't really the same as a dedicated sail only vessel."

I agree with you. Where are you planning on going? Are you going long term cruising or short hops? Are you on any kind of timetable? If not, I kind of see your point but it is not for me.


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## jppp (Jul 13, 2008)

Powerboating enthusiast friend of mine said to me when we picked up the boat, "best part of a great sailboat is a great motor".


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## rbrasi (Mar 21, 2011)

I sailed into my slip for the first time last night. Perfect. It helped that A) I have a downwind slip and B) there was virtually no wind. Getting out without the engine on is more of a challenge, but I'm almost there. My goal is to use the engine only when absolutely necessary. BTW- I have a Vetus (Mitsubishi) Diesel 20hp that works great. After roughly 40 hours of water time, I'm still on my first tank of gas .


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