# Getting back on the waves



## Robban (Jul 3, 2017)

Hi!

My name is Robert, a few years ago I used to be a liveaboard on my 28ft sailing boat. Then stuff happened and now I'm renovating my neglected sailboat with the goal of doing long distance sailing again by 2018.

I just love it when people tell me it can't be done, gets me trying even harder irateraft:. So I'll confess that I'm also planning on converting to electrial engine, now I've read quite a few posts around here that electrical engines would be for daysailors. I think it might also be an idea for very long distances, seeing as how you can "refuel" out at sea and without fuel costs.

Anyways, I'll be in Miami some time in late autumn without the boat. Would love to get some tips on where to go to meet other people working on their own boats, or liveaboard communities to get inspiration and ideas.

Cheers!


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## uacanoekayak (Jun 30, 2017)

Congrats on getting back into it Robert. Good on you for ignoring those naysayers!


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## zedboy (Jul 14, 2010)

Everyone who has done the math has come to the same conclusion: the electric engine will give you limited range. Yes, you can recharge, but only at a much lower rate than you consume. You won't get close to the 120 miles you could have done chugging along at 5 knots. For energy density, dinosaurs rule.

But that doesn't make it an unreasonable decision. Plenty of people do plenty of miles engineless, or with a kicker that's only for getting in and out of marinas.


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## Robban (Jul 3, 2017)

Aye, that's what I gathered as well, it would lessen the engines role quite a bit, from being a generator and alternative to sails it would become a help when going in and out of port and a generator when not going by engine.


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## ianjoub (Aug 3, 2014)

zedboy said:


> Everyone who has done the math has come to the same conclusion: the electric engine will give you limited range. Yes, you can recharge, but only at a much lower rate than you consume.


I think virtually every railroad engine in the US is diesel electric. They all run on electric motors with a diesel generator providing the power. Why is this not feasible on a sailboat?


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Robban said:


> become a help when going in and out of port and a generator when not going by engine.


As someone just beginning your long distance sailing adventures, I would think you'd want a lot more back up that just a few hours of motor power.
At best, your solar will give you around 20% of their rated capacity over 24 hours. So your batteries may not be topped up when you really need your engine the most. 
Don't think nice calm sunny day here, think force 6 to 7 and cloudy, not uncommon for cruisers (it's been cloudy for days), a lee shore and possibly even a current against you. You have to power 25 miles right into it in those conditions (perhaps you've blown out your jib/main, or had a halyard/shroud/stay let go), or lose your boat! Remember, under those conditions, your expected performance in calm conditions may be a lot more than what you're actually getting.
I would suggest you keep the damn noisy, stinky diesel engine until you have a few years cruising under your belt and then, if you still want to convert, you'll be doing so as an educated, experienced sailor.


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## Robban (Jul 3, 2017)

Good reply Capta, exactly what I need.

I agree on the solar panel, never imagined it would power much more than the most basic of the navigations. Main power source would have to be wind turbine and propeller.

I did the west coast of Denmark solo in 6-7, had an average speed of 10kts (over ground) from surfing on the waves for 32 hours and loved every moment of it. However, as you say, those 32 hours went without incident.

As it feels right now, the conversion is still happening, the 8 hour range i have planned for could be extended further by a small honda in case of emergency. However I still have almost a year to listen to reason.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

ianjoub said:


> I think virtually every railroad engine in the US is diesel electric. They all run on electric motors with a diesel generator providing the power. Why is this not feasible on a sailboat?


Quite simply, weight. For comparable performance, nothing practical right now can beat the old internal combustion diesel engine. My 86 HP diesel is equivalent to 64.13 KW. That's one *BIG* generator even if you halved it for the torque! The weight of the locomotive power on a train is insignificant compared to the weight of the rolling stock and it's cargo.
The USCG ran diesel electric cutters from WWII until just recently I believe, but they were susceptible to the caustic marine environment and broke down often. There are a lot of advantages, but they do not outweigh the vulnerabilities, and weight where important, of the system.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

ianjoub said:


> I think virtually every railroad engine in the US is diesel electric. They all run on electric motors with a diesel generator providing the power. Why is this not feasible on a sailboat?


It is feasible, but not as efficient as either a simple diesel with a transmission or diesel with a hydraulic power transfer system.

In the case of a diesel railroad engine, these are very efficient diesels operating in a narrow power band which is what they do best. There is proportionately little stored electrical energy. Weight is less of a problem.

The issues with a sailboat is are a mix of providing adequate energy to operate the boat systems, having adequate space for the somewhat redundant electrical system and diesel genset and tanks, maintaining adequate carrying capacity with the tremendous combined weight of the motor, battery banks, genset and its tankage, being able to spread an adequate amount of solar collectors to provide sufficient power to get by with minimal genset use (so the tank can be minimized), sizing the genset so that it can produce adequate power to motor at a reasonable speed on a steady state basis without it being bigger than the diesel engine being removed and so on.

In reality, boats have voyaged powered by the wind and without engines for millennia. And folks like the Pardey's have done it until pretty recently. Obviously, it takes more skill and patience, and adds more risks to do so. Potentially it is less comfortable. But it can be done.

Even if the goal is to primarily voyage by the wind, adding solar PV panels and larger battery banks allow better risk management by permitting brighter running lights, electronic navigation gear and communication equipment. Adding a small electric motor that is only used to get into port or avoid a collision at sea arguably reduces those risks and so on.

But in the end, we all determine what we consider an acceptable level of risk. We determine the trade offs that make sense. We employ differing strategies to deal with challenges. And hopefully we accept the consequences of our decisions without complaining or gloating.

(At the risk of derailing this conversation, I can give an example of how differently people can view the same situation. This spring I got caught out single-hand when a front came through our area. I was out there through my own poor judgement.

I was roughly an hour from home sailing through Annapolis Harbor when a friend on a dock hailed me and pointed at the sky to the southwest. I knew that I front was supposed to pass through the area but it was expected many hours later and I had gotten complacent about it. There above the tree line was emerging this black ragged topped wall of clouds, with smaller clouds scudding ahead of the larger mass. I made a judgement that that cloud bank was roughly 20 miles away and probably moving at 20-25 miles an hour.

In hindsight, I had a number of choices: drop my sails and try to find and grab an empty slip in the harbor (which did not occur to me at the time), or drop sails and motor home, or reef my sails and sail home, or carry full sail for as long as I could and try to get to shelter before the storm got to me. I chose this last option and bore off for home under full sail.

It was a fast broad reach towards home. The GPS was showing 9-10 knots most of the way with moments of brilliance above that. As I approached the turn towards Whitehall Bay I knew I would be turning closer on the wind, and that my approximately 15-20 kt apparent wind would climb dramatically. I bore off almost dead down and furled the jib in the lee of the mainsail before hardening.

Now, I was seeing bigger apparent winds into the high 20's, with bigger gusts, and yet I did not stop to reef the main, only feathering up and roaring along. I had taken a couple big knockdowns, but I have done that before on this boat and so it did not seem like a big deal. But that was in part because I had a plan! I figured there would be a small lee to duck behind near the shore line ahead, and that I would drop the mainsail in that lee. I could see flat water near the shore which played into my thinking and reassured me that I was still probably doing the right thing as I raced ahead towards the shallows and less sea-room at high speed.

But I also could tell that the wind was rapidly building, and it was questionable how bad it would get. And with the building wind, it was questionable how effective that lee would be as well. I knew I had one shot at this, and coiled my main halyard and sheet in figure 8's to make sure they could run, clipped my harness to the jackline, and when I figured I was close to shore as I dared, I fired up the engine, shot up into the wind, set the autopilot and let the main halyard run. As I left the cockpit the wind instrument showed around 40 knots of wind. Pulling the mainsail down was very difficult, it felt like it was bolted to the mast, but I was able to get it 3/4 of the way down or so.

Running out of water, and not knowing what was coming next, I did not stop to take the rest of the sail down. Instead, I threw some sail ties around the sail and boom and motored up the channel into Mill Creek. Once in the creek, and surrounded by land. the wind had dropped some, but there were still big gusts. I motored up to leeward of a steep bluff that has trees on top and flaked the sail in the lee.

But I had gotten seriously beat up in this exercise and things could have gone much worse.

So, in hindsight, the obvious safe thing would have been to drop my sail, and find a slip in the harbor. But hindsight, isn't foresight.

Traditional wisdom might have been to get rid of the jib and reef the mainsail, but that would have meant being out in the Bay exposed to the full force of the storm for much longer, since my speed would have been way slower. It may not have been possible to make it into Whitehall Bay against the full force of the wind as well.

Getting rid of all sails and motoring may have made sense, but again, motoring would have been slower still. So I selected what many would consider the riskiest choice.

But even with hindsight, even now its hard for me to say, that sailing under full sail was any riskier than the other two options. In making that decision, it came down to my sense of knowing my boat, my home waters and choosing what seemed like the safest options with the most likely chance of minimizing risk.

But As I have told this story, people have each seemed to think one or the other option was obviously right. And maybe it would have been for them, and maybe it would have been for me. And I am sure that each of you might have handled differently and maybe done one of those options or come up with an option that has yet to occur to me. Who knows?)

And that is what this discussion is about, knowing your vessel and her capabilities while also understanding the risks. The question about voyaging under sail with limited power options, may seem to be the obvious option to the O..P. given the boat and the venue, even if it isn't to us.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Robban said:


> I agree on the solar panel, never imagined it would power much more than the most basic of the navigations. Main power source would have to be wind turbine and propeller.


A windgen will put out much less amperage over 24 hours than you think. Ours is probably averaging between 6 & 8 amps total over a 24 hour day, here in the Caribbean. Of course, there are good days around 85 amps, but they are few and far between. 
Our 250 watt solar charges considerably more than our windgen, even on a poor day, but of course that is dependent on the size of the array.
The windgen seems to work best while sailing, but it alone still wouldn't keep up with *our* 12 volt usage. Running both we can usually maintain 12.4 to 12.6 volts (under load) in the batteries.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

capta said:


> The USCG ran diesel electric cutters from WWII until just recently I believe, but they were susceptible to the caustic marine environment and broke down often. There are a lot of advantages, but they do not outweigh the vulnerabilities, and weight where important, of the system.


My dad was on a diesel electric Destroyer Escort during WW II but they had fuel ships to top them up and were not all that fast.


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## zedboy (Jul 14, 2010)

I know the big low-speed marine diesels are the most efficient internal combustion engines in the world today (like 60% - that's nutty!) and that's what they use on most new ships. It would seem you get so much time running the prop and therefore the engine at the ideal picked cruising speed/efficiency, the little bit of time spent doing anything else doesn't count. My guess is diesel-electric for locomotives is because they need to operate over such a large speed range, it's worth the complexity and loss of the electric generation and consumption.


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

I work for a railroad, and the main reason that locomotives are diesel-electric is the advantage an electric motor provides; as it has been explained to me by our Mechanical Department, an electric motor has almost unlimited torque at low rpms. That makes it invaluable in getting those thousands of tons moving from a dead stop. The locomotive manufacturers have tried every kind of drive train, including the more traditional engine/transmission set up, and they keep coming back to the diesel-electric drive. 

As Jeff and others have noted, the diesel-electric drive train takes up a lot of space and weighs quite a bit; the advantages it provides don't outweigh the negatives in small boats. I have noted the appearance of Prius-like "hybrid" systems in some boats; a large yacht featured in one of those luxury yachting magazines showed a power plant that could run all diesel, all electric, or hybrid. But it looked very complicated and very expensive.


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