# LA to Portland Nov 2008



## TSOJOURNER

Hi, picking up a 1978 Hunter 27 in Long Beach, CA and sailing to Portland, OR.

I am considering two courses. Jump from coastal harbour to harbour or head out for the long tack and hope to find less of a foul current and less disagreeable winds and seas Then head in and hit San Fransisco or? Ideas, experience, pointers.

I know a lot about the "foul northern course" but I don't know a lot about the specific currents, tides and their affect on the current, where the best route is for motoring, for sailing? Is it to hug the land until the last possible moment around pt. conception and then make my long tack? And, what angle off the wind should I calculate for? I expect to be close hauled and about 45 of the wind and about 60 for course made good... 

things like that- specific aspects of the Hunter and Channel island/S. California Coastal/ Channel Island specifics like how to take advantage of currents or at least decrease their effect... I am flying to Long Beach on election day... should be interesting.


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## JohnRPollard

Logos,

You are new here, so forgive me but I don't know too much about your experience level/background. 

Have you made any trips like this previously?

How is the boat equipped, particularly with respect to safety equipment and sail inventory?

I have never sailed that patch of water, but from what I've read and seen, and been told first hand by those that have, once you get north of Pt. Conception it's a much tougher environment, with a nasty lee shore, and safe harbors few and far between. The H27 is a small boat for that voyage, so hopefully you've taken every necessary preparation.

I expect others more familiar with that coast will chime in, but you would give them more insight if you could flesh out some of the details about the boat and preparations taken.


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## sww914

November is typically when we start seeing more than 10' swells coming down from Aelutian storms and more local storms. It's likely that you will have wind north of Point Conception, hopefully less than 25-35 knots.
I surf and I have surfed in 20' conditions here in November. Not anymore, too old for that.


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## sailingdog

Logos-

I'll second what JRP said... not the friendliest section of shoreline, especially this late in the year.

Knowing your background and experience would go a long way to being able to give you good advice. So would knowing how the boat is equipped and what experience your crew, if you're going to have any aboard, has.

There have been several threads on this previously, and weather delays are going to be inevitable, so knowing how much time you have to make the delivery would also be useful.

Most of the Pacific coast of North America is a nasty lee shore...and the harbors are not ones you can get into if the weather goes bad... if you've seen what the Columbia River Bar entrance can look like on a bad day, you'll realize how dangerous this type of trip can be.

TO give you an idea...this is a photo of a very large ship crossing the Columbia River Bar:










Consider the size of the tanker in this photo and the size of the waves breaking over its decks and think about how an H27 compares... Get the picture now??

BTW, here's a photo of a "calm" day crossing of the Columbia River Bar:


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## doubleeboy

Not only is the Columbia Bar a disaster waiting to happen, but so is the bar at darn near every port on the OR coast. Calm and polite one minute, nasty as can be a half hour later. Bandon, Florence, Newport just to name a few are very tough to cross when the weather kicks up, in a lightly built 27' forget it. There is good reason few people pound north in the fall or winter. 

michael


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## TSOJOURNER

I like the pictures! The Columbia River Bar is the main Crux of this voyage- the other just being the long slog on ship and crew. But the bar is only impassable in a storm or unusually high, breaking seas. You're absolutely right though, the November winds and storms are coming in the north west coast. If winds are in the 10- 25 knot for the trip to San Fransisco I will be happy. 

But trust me, decommissioning the boat and trucking it if it's condition, the weather or cost/benefit out determine otherwise since the boat is mine, not a delivery in those terms.


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## sailingdog

DEBoy—

I just use the Columbia River bar as an example, since I know they have good photos for it...


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## TSOJOURNER

Oh, about my experience. I am an able bodied sailor. I have sailed primarily the North West Coat and Rivers since I was born and raised here. Father had a boat when I was a lot younger and started there. It became "mine" for 7 years through college and some early positions. Then moved on to larger boats and finally suffered a personal loss and worked at the premier boat yard's in this area but also one of the best boat builders in the world- right now they are working on two 65ft cat's... on the web of course... anyway- know the beasts inside and out... and plan to spend some time shaking it down as I'm not in a terrible hurry.


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## TSOJOURNER

equipment I think necessary: (don't have a full manifest yet) besides all required safety equipment:

back up gps
back up, hand-held, marine radio
offshore personal gear:
suit
vest
harness
synthetic layers
gloves
sunglasses
goggles
heat supply on boat
extra fuel
extra food & water
charts
sextant & tables/calculator

epirb like ACR AquaFix 406 MHz GPS I Personal EPIRB

life raft with survival kit... 
would like at least a thousand feet of rode... could use it as a warp if needed

you know pretty much what the racing committees require lol I guess... anything else?


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## Faster

Put it on a truck.. honestly. This is not the season to be trying that patch of water in a H27. 

"The Columbia Bar is only accessible in foul weather".. true enough but, as with all the (many) bar harbours along this coast the times you most likely NEED to get across could well be in foul weather, at which time you're locked out with nowhere to go.

The $3K (or less - just going to Portland) you're looking at to truck the boat home will be money very well spent. If you want the coastal experience do it next year - sail up to BC and Puget sound for starters in late spring or early summer...

The "gales of November" is not just a Great Lakes tale.. I doubt you'll find anyone to wholeheartedly recommend this plan esp at this time of year and esp in that type of boat.


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## Paul_L

logos said:


> ... The Columbia River Bar is the main Crux of this voyage- the other just being the long slog on ship and crew. .... If winds are in the 10- 25 knot for the trip to San Fransisco I will be happy.
> ....


That is a bit of a naive statement. The winds will not limit themselves to 25kts if you head offshore. You need to plan for much more difficult weather than this. Watch the weather off of Cape Mendocino for awhile. While the Columbia Bar is tough, it is at the end of the trip and you can wait out for better conditions. When you are offshore of Northern Cal and OR you cannot wait out anything. You just have to deal with it.

This is an ill conceived trip at this time of year. For a boat like this you are better to ship it or plan a long coastal trip where you can wait out weather at a better time of year.

Paul L


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## TSOJOURNER

That is one thing I especially lack knowledge of- The 1978 Hunter is purportedly built stronger than later ones, but will she take, if all is in reasonable condition for a 1978 27', a pounding to weather for weeks with up to 30 knot winds? I am not too concerned about the weather for myself but mainly the boat... which I haven't seen yet. Don't mind sailing around south for a while or all winter then doing it in bits or later. I think the LA to SF leg is doable but not advised- I don't need landfall or safe harbors unless we get something


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## TSOJOURNER

I imagine I will be reefed at anything over 20 and so will have the main reefed or double reefed the whole time past Pt. Conception... and then just tack out a couple hundred miles... the current auto pilot is an autohelm 800 and I plan to upgrade to the simrad tp32 or raymarine st2000 plus with a remote

radar would be nice... but no doubt this is sailing and people have done it throughout history I've seen some seas that were alarming but haven't encountered "survival storms" or felt I was in danger of capsize... so I lack some of that extreme experience...

we'll see when I get down there... maybe just spend a nice winter in cali for once exploring that part of the coast... maybe get a job at a boat yard lol


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## TSOJOURNER

The yanmar is the key I think as motor sailing or beating into it. I will carry spare parts of course and am not relying on it but it would make the journey, while sickening, possible in some ways that are precluded otherwise.


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## Paul_L

Logos,
Count the number of brabs on these wind roses for a current GRIB of the NW coast.

Paul L


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## CharlieCobra

logos, this Fall has been strange with virtually NO bad weather to speak of. Now that the Pacific High has gone South, I fully expect Ma Nature to give us the drubbing she's been holding back. Someone cruising North along this coast in November in an H27 will likely make the Darwin list and deservedly so. While I happen to enjoy the occasional Gale sail, I wouldn't do it, not at this time of year, especially in an H27.


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## sww914

I've read many sea stories. All the disaster stories had two things in common. 1- a series of small problems compounded, will not necessarily apply to you or your boat.
2- The calender told them when to go rather than good sense, I'd be sure that this doesn't apply to you.
Southern California Beach Cities are an exceptionally nice place to spend the winter, weather-wise. I'd opt for that. Spend some time on the boat, fixing things, sailing around, enjoying the many many things to do in So Cal, get a low stress job around a marina and have a nice winter. Next year let the weather dictate when you leave on a long trip against the wind and currents.


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## sailingdog

Making a plan that involves your inboard diesel as a key component on a small sailboat, during what is known to be one of the worst times of the year weather wise, strikes me as a bit beyond foolish. Everyone knows that small boats don't have reliable engines, especially if you're counting on them to save your butt...

Since you say you are picking it up....I am guessing it is new to you-*so you don't know this boat-or what condition it and its engine are in. Yet, you're willing to bet your life that the rigging, sails, hardware, and engine are in good enough condition to take on an offshore passage along a nasty lee shore during a season where storms and bad weather are more the rule than not??*


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## J36ZT

Logos,

Several years ago I bought my boat in San Diego and sailed it into SF Bay. I had limited crew, no open ocean experience, and the boat was new to me. I know first hand the anxiety and apprehension you must be going through. The journey took me two weeks to complete and included a three day wait in Santa Barbara for a weather window (we stopped every night otherwise). I too "sailed north" during a less than favorable time of the year (mine in April).

You're right that you have two route choices: Hug the coast or get way out to sea and come back in. I chose to hug the coast due to crew, experience, and unfamiliar boat. In doing so, I felt I had a greater margin of safety (closer to land should I need to abort). You should carefully consider each route and equipment that will be needed for each.

The greatest distance between ports was from Santa Barbara to San Luis Obispo (101 nm). There is an anchorage just before "The Point," Cojo anchorage, that's safe provided a storm isn't coming from the wrong direction. Once around Point Conception, the seas and wind will pick up dramatically. I was in 14ft+ seas and 35 knots of wind on several occasions (8' seas and 25 knots are almost the norm, and 4-5' seas/15 knots is the best you can hope for). I found the seas and winds were the worse starting in the early afternoon and lasting 'til just after midnight. You need to know that being on a sailboat in 14 foot seas is no picnic. Be ready to be very wet and very cold (and probably have the sh*% scared out of you) from Point Conception to SF Bay. Don't panic, keep a clear head, and plan/evaluate what you're doing.

Helpful hints: 1) Make sure the engine is in good shape and you have enough fuel to travel 150+ nm (should you need to motor your way back to port) 2) Make sure the anchoring tackle is appropriate (maybe even larger than needed) and in good shape 3) Santa Barbara does have a West Marine store right next to the marina for emergency boat equipment 4) If you anchor at Cojo and see whitecaps...stay put or retreat to Santa Barbara 5) Coming into San Louis Obispo can be tricky (don't try it if the weather is nasty) and I had to anchor there (no docks or moorings) 6) Listen on Ch12 for marine traffic when coming into SF (freighters can run you over) 7) The first marina in SF Bay sits almost beneath the north tower of the Golden Gate (run by the Presidio YC...good place to stop, eat, and relax but no fuel available) 8) Time your entrance so you have a following tide (current can be 4 knots)

Equipment advice: As a minimum I'd have 1) Charts for each port/marina along the way 2) A good maping GPS or chartplotter 3) Life-raft 4) EPIRB 5) Good warm foul weather gear 6) Jacklines/harness/tether 7) A boat that's in good shape with all necessary safety equipment 8) Radar and/or AIS this time of year

What you're proposing to do is likely to be the roughest sailing conditions you'll ever experience. Not all sailors, even experienced ones, have returned from the voyage you are talking about making. Make sure you've got a good weather window, and know that the sea is not forgiving...especially around "The Point!"

Skipper, J/36 "Zero Tolerance"

PS I can't help you on the journey from San Francisco northward. From what I've heard though, the sea just gets nastier the farther north you go.

PPS NOAA lies! Be very careful about your weather window. Things can change from calm to "holy sh*%" in the matter of a few minutes...especially if a storm is near.

PPPS I was asked, "Are you suicidal or just stupid?" Only you can decide if the risks are worth taking.


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## J36ZT

Oh, did I mention I had 36 feet worth of boat beneath me and not 27...


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## dabnis

Logos,

Suggest you CAREFULLY read "Going north San Diego - Crescent city" on page 4 of the Cruising archives. As I said to Jordan, my intent in writing this is to save you some major grief and maybe your life. This is about the worst time of the year to try it.

Dabnis


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## TSOJOURNER

Thank you J36T! That is some useful, first-hand information, and that is what I have gathered so far. Looks like a good time to explore that area and gather the boat together. I am neither foolhardy nor suicidal and am not afraid of a blow... I have spent far too many solo hours but I also am not a risk taker

I just have always heard about this trip at this time of year and worked with someone who tried with a 26 o'day or something and gave up shortly after Pt. Conception. The price on the boat is too good to pass up with my budget since it leaves me enough to make some improvements/live for awhile... 

And believe me, I appreciate the experience and warnings... a lady friend wanted to go upon hearing of the idea and she has no boat experience of any kind whatsoever! I had to nix that as you know, even for experienced sailors, this trip is probably passed without absolute necessity.


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## TSOJOURNER

dabnis,

I will read it. I am quite sure I will survey the trip a last time or two and then settle in for the winter.

It is nice down there compared to the Pacific North West winters- long drawn out wet.


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## CharlieCobra

Yep, the good weather be gone now, for the next 6 months or so.


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## LazylighningII

I have a 47' offshore boat and would not do it. I sailed this boat down from Seattle 4 years ago and would not suggest you do it in 27 footer. I also sail this part of the coast on a 900' container ship and we have gotten our butts kicked in Nov. If you a must do this April -July is the Time and you still must watch the weather with a very close eye.


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## TSOJOURNER

I was relieved to read you will not be coming up this time of year...


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## TSOJOURNER

Not sure yet. I am moored at the Cabrillo Yacht Club in San Pedro.Got here on the 4th and took possession of the "Karana" the same day. I have been out twice beyond the breakwater once when gusting to 30kts with about 22 continuous. Swells 5-6 feet with wind waves 2-3 feet. Mostly testing the motor's ability to push her in those conditions. Had a storm jib flying. Other than that I am pulling as much of the engine apart as reasonably possible to de-rust and clean it. Using 10% phosphoric acid solution and a lot of scraping and scrubbing with wire brushes and cleaners. It's a lot lot better. I have pictures and will post them later.
She needs a top coat and so will be scrubbing and degreasing and priming and painting. Hull too.
The wiring was atrocious and still is but better. Bough new batteries. Emergency signaling gear etc.
She's a great boat and strong. Being in California the core is dry(er) than it would be elsewhere. I snorkelled the bottom for a bit checking through hulls, the keel, and rudder welds among other things. Clean bottom with fair paint. Time to be stripped though.
I have things to do but am keeping her ready to sail within a day and am planning a trip to Catalina Island on Saturday. More later. Logos


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## sailingdog

Logos—

Being in California will have very difference on whether the core is wet or dry... that is determined purely by how well bedded and maintained the deck hardware was.


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## TSOJOURNER

maybe you are thinking too quickly, lol, water intrusion goes on all the time, sailingdog, with fiberglass boats as you probably know. a boats hull absorbs water unless epoxy coated etc. That is why they "blister": water intrusion!- this is because the (often vinyl ester) resin matrix is porous and will osmotically as well as just by mechanical pressure be takingn on water until it is saturated... the saturation point depends on the reference gradient- this is why I say southern california boats will typically have less problems with deck core problems- the humidity is generally a lot less than other places, portland, or for instance. thus you would expect anything, including your deck core, to maintain, over time, an internal moisture content similiar to the average humidity. that is why we find old cars sitting around here that have not rusted to the ground whereas in hawaii for instance you can park a car on the side of the road and it won't be there a few years later! the extremely high humidity is pushing water into anything that is not a similar 80-90% humidity.
If someone had a boat that was damp and put it in a very low humidity environment, like a giant refridgerator, it would lose moisture until it was as dry as the air around it.

logos


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## sailingdog

Logos-

Hate to break it to you. Most water intrusion problems for decks are due to leaks and poorly bedded hardware. Airborne water isn't going cause OSMOSIS, the diffusion gradient is too low. The vapor pressure of water vapor isn't high enough to force it into fiberglass laminate.


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## Harryeod

Some of the worst weather I've ever been in, besides sailing through a couple of typhoons, but those are other stories, was coming out of the straits of Juan de Fuca mid November. Anyone that wasn't on watch was secured to their racks (ordered to stay in their beds for you land lubers). The smell from 20 to 30 sailors puking was herendous!


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## TSOJOURNER

No. No. No.


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## Harryeod

Harryeod said:


> Some of the worst weather I've ever been in, besides sailing through a couple of typhoons, but those are other stories, was coming out of the straits of Juan de Fuca mid November. Anyone that wasn't on watch was secured to their racks (ordered to stay in their beds for you land lubers). The smell from 20 to 30 sailors puking was herendous!


Ok, I'm an idiot!

This was on a US Navy Frigate.


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## TSOJOURNER

the "vapor pressure of water" is not the right concept here. Whether water will permeate the fiberglass is unquestionable in or out of water- it is the gelcoat and paint that prevents it. It is just much slower- water is pulled in, not pushed or forced, there is an osmotic gradient... maybe you were thinking of the partial pressure of water vapor in the atmosphere? A 30 year old boat will show signs of degradation to the gelcoat and underlying material just due to water, sailingdog, I have seen it over and over. Decks, interiors, bottoms. If there is an open channel to the core, you will see problems lots sooner, rather than the general degredation of the resin matrix. The two killers of those bonds are primarily radiation from the sun and the weakening of the chemical bonds due to the presence of moisture. For the same reason salts will split into their constituents in water, other materials' bonds are weakened in the presence of an ionic species of molecule/atom- water is weakly ionic going from H2O to OH to H3O so is both a weak acid and base!

Water is getting into moist things on your boat and weakening it. Even your gelcoat- ask someone else- it is just a problem over 10's of years rather than years with direct water access to core.

The point was, with a low humidity gradient water will not tend to migrate in as much as with a high humidity gradient- this boat is much dryer in so far as moisture content, than others I have seen in the NW and NE.

Furthermore, this boat has not been maintained well at all. But, even with exposed core in some places, there is no water damage- why? it's really dry here. Makes sense doesn't it? Since when it does get wet, rarely, the air sucks the moisture back out of it, like your body in the santa ana wind.


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## sww914

When my wife was in the USCG they had to decommission their 30' self righting boat because it was 800# too heavy. No core there, just solid fiberglass. Their theory was that the water would wick up any exposed fibers and into the fiberglass. It seems like a good theory to me, a few gazillion flex cycles through the fiberglass and it seems like the resin would loose some of it's bond to the glass fibers and the water would creep into the spaces.


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## TSOJOURNER

Interesting. You are saying the boat had gained 800lbs of water, presumably into the fiberglass throughout the boat... Well, I think that if they park it in the desert protected from the sun, it will lose the 800# gorilla after awhile. But I think sailingdog is correct to assume most of that water weight would be below the water line though I would guess the entire thing has increased in moisture content. And yes flexing will weaken the bonds ...


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## rocinante33

After your trip to Catalina, come up to the northern Channel Islands. You will get a little more weather up here. There are four islands in the chain running east to west. The weather in these islands can be a microcosm of what you may experience going north. From the east, Anacapa, Santa Cruz, Santa Rosa and San Miguel have progressively more significant winds and waves. By the time you get out to San Miguel, you may face weather as significant as at Pt. Concepcion. The neat thing is, you can take it in small doses. Try it and if it is too tough, head to an anchorage or back to Santa Barbara, Ventura or Channel Islands Harbors. There is a lot of upwind work to get out there, just like you will experience going farther up the coast. It is good experience with conditions that can vary greatly.

Get the cruising guide to Southern & Central Cal by Brian Fagan. It will likely help.

Also read about Skip Allen & his boat "Wildflower' on Latitude38.com. Wildflower was a seaworthy custom 27 footer with 16 trips to an from Hawai'i to her credit. Skip Allen was (is) described as, "one of the two or three best sailors on the planet." He won the single handed Pacific Cup race (SF ti Hawai'i) beating many bigger boats. Yet he had to abandon Wildflower about 200 miles off the California coast & be rescued by a freighter.


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## TSOJOURNER

*Hunter 27 to Portland? Hold your horses...*

No can do. This is not a safe trip for a two cylinder Yanmar 20hp Hunter 27 and inexperienced coastal sailors. Believe me, I am a senior offshore sailing instructor for Club Nautique out of SF (US Sailing's #1 offshore school) and a busy Delivery Captain. I have done the west coast many times and I can tell you you're making a big mistake. Experienced sailors on larger boats have died doing this in winter. I've seen force 12 winds and suicide bar crossings in November north of SF. Other reasons:

1) First the Hunter 27 couldn't push through a wet paper bag let alone a 8-12 foot wind chop. The criteria for going north in a Hunter 27 is less than 10kts of new breeze over a calm sea or mild southerlies of less than 15kts. October was the last month that you might have a slight chance of finding such weather. (BTW, I've delivered several small Hunters up and down the coast...but never would do so in winter.)

2) You didn't list a life raft...

3) You don't have the experience otherwise you wouldn't have posted this question. And you'll be risking the lives of anyone with you!

4) Once offshore this coast you are committed because you are unlikely to re-cross a bar unless conditions are perfect.

5) At 2-3 kts SOG in mild weather you'll be hanging out so long offshore you're bound to collect changing weather like a new unwanted hobby.

6) Tankage of 15-20 gallons won't get you far...extra jugs present stability issues, etc.

7) A Hunter 27 is made for bay sailing ONLY

Truck it and stay alive.

Be Jolly,
Arnstein Mustad
Mustad Marine


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## camaraderie

Welcome Arn...note that the original planned trip HAS been abandoned. No worries!


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## TSOJOURNER

...and this kind of scare monguering isn't really helpful to anyone let alone an experienced sailor who was wondering what that trip is _really_ like, in otherwords not these vague, fearful stories of stories but as in earlier posts, first hand experience of these waters. I know the Northern West Coast, that is where I was born and live and am from (hello?). Some people seem to be so ready to say something they perhaps stay up at night worrying about, they forget to read and think about the discussion at hand.

But that being said.

The 1978 Hunter 27 is a sound boat. I wouldn't be expecting it to fall apart in gale force winds (rigging in reasonably sound condition etc.) Falling off a wave and a wave falling heavy on the cabin top are the concerns for anyboat. Would she crack? Owner's report that they are built like tanks but I will have to inquire as to real accounts of heavy weather sailing (if any can be found)- other than that, if the boat is sound, it is seamanship that keeps one afloat...

And that is what I mean about vague scare mongering: What is the danger of a gale force wind and heavy seas? The invocation of a storm by itself is a useless warning to someone without telling them _why_ it is dangerous. So, if you are not just relating your own fears and misunderstanding of heavy weather sailing, and actually trying to warn someone, take the time to elucidate the dangers- and if you have the knowledge, include the tactics one may employ in case the person you are warning does it anyway! That is being a responsible forum contributor imho.

Also, in what winds can a 1978 Hunter 27 be sailed effectively? And the engine is a single cylinder yanmar rated at [email protected] rpm if you know the boat so well, why list it as you did... try to be more helpful?


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## TSOJOURNER

...furthermore, the list includes a liferaft with survival kit (see post near bottom of page 1)... please everyone, try to read the posts before you jump in- just a tiny little idea that might be helpful.


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## TSOJOURNER

...furthermore, do you know what question I did ask, Amustad?

I suggest you reread the original post. Do you truck boats for a living? Do you know anything of the local waters in and around southern california that would be helpful or pertinent to my question?

I do appreciate your wish to save lives and applaud it. I just suggest reading the posts carefully and then perhaps picking the forum for posting innaccurate, fearmongering will no longer appear to you to be this one, because it is not- and I do not mean to be rancorous, but feel the world would be better if we stayed on topic.


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## erps

> The 1978 Hunter 27 is a sound boat. I wouldn't be expecting it to fall apart in gale force winds ( rigging in reasonably sound condition etc.) Falling off a wave and a wave falling heavy on the cabin top are the concerns for anyboat. Would she crack? Owner's report that they are built like tanks but I will have to inquire as to real accounts of heavy weather sailing (if any can be found)- other than that, if the boat is sound, it is seamanship that keeps one afloat...


Part of good seamanship is knowing when to make the trip.


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## dabnis

Logos,

Seems like you are still considering the trip, "not sure yet"? Don't mean to be redundant, but I have over 50 years of experience in northern Calif ocean waters and due to some unwise decisions I am lucky to be here. You couldn't pick a worse time of year. As I said in my previousl post, suggest you go back and read all the replies carefully. Save yourself some major grief and maybe your life, don't do it.

Dabnis


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## TSOJOURNER

Sorry, I don't have time to lay out an online course for offshore sailing....there are good on-the-water schools for that.

And Hunters? I've sailed nearly every Hunter made except for maybe two models over the last 20 years. The newer Hunters have a little more hp than the older ones. However, the older little Hunters like yours were probably the best made and fastest Hunters....from there they went downhill fast. The new Hunter 30's are absolutely amazing...in a bad way. That said, the H27 is not an offshore sailor and has no business trying to negotiate gales in winter time. You'll go backwards, yaw uncontrollably and take a pounding the hull/deck joint system has never before seen. Even with two-reefs you'll be so overpowered and slow that she won't be able to keep her head up to the seas. You'll be shipping so much water your bilge won't be able to keep up...and 20+ years of bilge crud will clog your little pump strainer. And if you turn and run with a mainsail up you'll broach continually followed by accidental jybes until the rig fails. One thing after another... 

I did a delivery of a new Tayana 52 a few years ago in November to Friday Hbr. We were holed up in Coos Bay for 10 days waiting out incredibly severe weather. We barely had a small weather window to clear out. Even then all the remaining west facing bars were closed due to swell. It was all or nothing...everything worked out and we made it around Cape Flattery. It worked because I minimized the risk and didn't let anything else influence my decisions.

Two weeks later another delivery skipper -- not as familiar -- took his inexperienced crew up the coast and was lost around Cape Blanco in nearly an 80kt storm. Their bodies have never been found. The skipper was warned by people like me several times while he was in SF preparing for the trip. His arrogance led to the deaths of the two crew who put their lives in his hands. It's the crew I feel badly for...not the skipper.

If you go, go alone. I wish you the best of luck!

BTW, I don't mean to be rude and I don't usually post messages on this board...however, your initial post caught my eye. I just don't want to see anyone get killed, especially crew who rely on the skipper's judgment.

Be jolly,
Arnstein Mustad
Mustad Marine dot com


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## artbyjody

logos said:


> ...furthermore, the list includes a liferaft with survival kit (see post near bottom of page 1)... please everyone, try to read the posts before you jump in- just a tiny little idea that might be helpful.


You should be aware - that if you are going to post a question as such (on Sailnet or any other public access free exchange), you are going to get answers that you do not want to hear (but you should). Just because you will outfit with EPIRBs, LifeRafts, or whatever - doesn't make you SAFE. A safe transit up the coast in a 27 footer with the weather conditions as they are this time of year was a HUGELY helpful post if you take the time to read the intent.

In the end it is your choice, but please do not even begin to suggest that when you post a question - that we must post only helpful information that allows you to think you can make your goal. World of experience on here and no one is bashing you or boat, farther from the truth.

Best of luck with your adventure - but I would strongly suggest, listening to those that have done it.

I would suggest trucking it - see BoatUS for transport companies. Or, leave the boat up there for the winter and grab it and sail it down when you can find some folks that may want to sail down with you - with a decent weather window.


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## CharlieCobra

Good lord! Are you still thinking about this Logos? I thought we covered everything weeks ago. If ya do go for it, do the other families out there a favor and do it solo.


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## Harryeod

Amustad said:


> Sorry, I don't have time to lay out an online course for offshore sailing....there are good on-the-water schools for that.
> 
> And Hunters? I've sailed nearly every Hunter made except for maybe two models over the last 20 years. The newer Hunters have a little more hp than the older ones. However, the older little Hunters like yours were probably the best made and fastest Hunters....from there they went downhill fast. The new Hunter 30's are absolutely amazing...in a bad way. That said, the H27 is not an offshore sailor and has no business trying to negotiate gales in winter time. You'll go backwards, yaw uncontrollably and take a pounding the hull/deck joint system has never before seen. Even with two-reefs you'll be so overpowered and slow that she won't be able to keep her head up to the seas. You'll be shipping so much water your bilge won't be able to keep up...and 20+ years of bilge crud will clog your little pump strainer. And if you turn and run with a mainsail up you'll broach continually followed by accidental jybes until the rig fails. One thing after another...
> 
> I did a delivery of a new Tayana 52 a few years ago in November to Friday Hbr. We were holed up in Coos Bay for 10 days waiting out incredibly severe weather. We barely had a small weather window to clear out. Even then all the remaining west facing bars were closed due to swell. It was all or nothing...everything worked out and we made it around Cape Flattery. It worked because I minimized the risk and didn't let anything else influence my decisions.
> 
> Two weeks later another delivery skipper -- not as familiar -- took his inexperienced crew up the coast and was lost around Cape Blanco in nearly an 80kt storm. Their bodies have never been found. The skipper was warned by people like me several times while he was in SF preparing for the trip. His arrogance led to the deaths of the two crew who put their lives in his hands. It's the crew I feel badly for...not the skipper.
> 
> If you go, go alone. I wish you the best of luck!
> 
> BTW, I don't mean to be rude and I don't usually post messages on this board...however, your initial post caught my eye. I just don't want to see anyone get killed, especially crew who rely on the skipper's judgment.
> 
> Be jolly,
> Arnstein Mustad
> Mustad Marine dot com


Oh My GOD! I'm selling my boat and moving away from the ocean, maybe Kansas!

Seriously, that was a good post, I would definitly be rethinking about making that trip this time of year.


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## tommays

Having spent enough time being the seas ***** during races with 55 knot winds and seas that the boat kept launching off of hard enough to cause back problems i dont think it is fear mongering at all


It is kind of hard to believe how bad the sea can beat you up till it does


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## TSOJOURNER

One of the worse nights I had coming up on the Columbia the winds were reported at 30 knots. 30 knots felt like 50, with seas to go along with it. At least I know there isn't any sediment in my fuel tank now  Spotting shipping in that kind of weather is an art form. Radar is useless.


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## KeelHaulin

I think in respect to Amustad's experience as an Offshore sailing instructor; you (logos) should not take the position you have anchored yourself to. I think we sailnetters have talked several other "new boat owners" down from their position of "I'm going to sail down the coast now; who wants to come?" plans; and if that did not convince them the trip out to Pt Conception did. The conditions outside of the protection of Pt Conception, Northern Monterey bay, and -maybe- the NE quadrant of Drakes Bay (if you can get in there and find shelter) are really, really treacherous during the winter. I mean it's almost "closed" to offshore sailing no matter how big your boat is and it only gets worse after early November. I think that's a big reason why Tom Perkins set off back out to sea abord the 289' Maltese Falcon on the last week of October after spending a month in SF; he just did not want to needlessly beat the boat up or wait out the storms that regularly come in. This last week was relatively light in terms of weather systems here; but the offshore conditions were nasty. Heavy storms are continuously coming in anywhere north of the Ca/Oregon Border with many reaching hurricane force as they come ashore.

Two years ago a new ~50' catamaran being delivered from South Africa IIRC was rolled and all hands were lost as it sailed north from SF to Seattle. The seas were up around 40-50' mean height and based on their last known position they were probably either in heavier seas due to the shallower waters inside the continental shelf; or they were rolled by a rogue wave. They were trying to find shelter in a small cove behind Cape Blanco

December 18, 2006

I really hate to burst your bubble; but it's the arrogance like that of this delivery skipper (and yours) that cause lives to be needlesly lost at sea. Have a little respect for the people who are telling you it's pretty much a no-can-do in your little 28' boat that appears based on what you have mentioned to be in need of a total refit before sailing it home to Portland. If you can't justify the cost of slip fees for the next 6 months; then you should put it on the hard somewhere and wait until spring. If you can't afford either; then find a place to moor it that you won't have to pay for (if there is such a place in the San Pedro or LA Basin). OR - Now this is a GREAT idea: Send it home on a Truck! It's called the I-5 passage and it is regularly taken during the winter!

Please, take our advice. Anywhere north of Pt Conception is really is not a place to be offshore sailing in a boat that is not just completely designed for heavy weather (like something steel hulled or a heavy displacement motor-sailor); and even in that instance it could be considered a gamble to head north at this time of year. The "storm door" has opened on schedule/early this year; so I don't think you can safely do either a coastal trip or a long offshore "tack". The Pacific High is unreliable now so there is no safe zone to sail west into if you went far offshore in an attempt to get away from heavy wind/seas.


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## Faster

Logos

None of we naysayers here are into fear-mongering... it's a simple concern for your safety and that of your vessel.(and, I suppose, for those that may have to try and rescue you in one of those nasty bits of weather)

Some of the most vehement against your plans HAVE been there done that, so please don't take their comments lightly. Many experienced offshore crews will remember the trip up or down this coast as one of the roughest/most uncomfortable (on a number of levels) than any other.

I've done the reverse trip in July and couldn't believe how cold it was until we crossed the California border.. weather was relatively benign for us, but still layed ahull one night off Cape St George in a gale.

Fog, shipping, gales, impassable bar harbours, there's simply too many things against you even if you were sailing a well-found known quantity, never mind a new-to-you boat in need of some TLC.....


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## TSOJOURNER

Of course I'm considering it. I am also considering heading to Hawaii first. Then to Japan to see a friend and then home. 
As I have said most likely I will be sailing these waters (the southern west coast of north america) until further notice. Just because I haven't yet and there is lots to explore etc.
I just think, on this other note, that some of you don't realize which conversation to have with me. You shouldn't be thinking: uh oh, someone who has never stepped foot in a boat and who knows nothing of the pacific coastal waters of north america is going to attempt to go north in a rowboat made of papermache in a bathing suit uphill both ways.
Instead think, oh an experienced sailor who has heard many many stories, some first hand, of this passage this time of year, is curious to hear this end of it, so to speak, as my original question asks, what are the waters like at this end of the coast? Is there much of a current around the Channel Islands? What is the current like down here: North to south as it is to the north or does it diminish or change? Things like that, local knowledge of the waters.
Like other boaters have at the dock here. No one, and all have heard just what we all have, that I am thinking about the passage north this time of year, ... no one... is lined up at my boat begging me not to go, to reconsider, to spare my life and truck my boat.
Rather, like any common sense people, we say, yah, rough trip, tricky- not the time of year to do, can be done but not easy etc. but we don't spend time raving about how it's suicide etc etc ad naseum. Get over it.
Life rafts and EPRB's are very important to have when offshore period. Regardless of weather expectations. 
Dabnis, how many times have you completed a trip north this time of year in that 50 years? That kind of information would be of interest to me.
You guys may not believe it, but I might be able to tell you more stories about storms and boats in it from my neck of the woods than anyone else. I might even have first hand experience crossing the bar in ... less than perfect weather... hmmm... 
So, what about local observations of the south coast? What about the old trade route (going out to sea then back in some hundreds of miles at anytime of year? 
Does anyone have any real experience of these things directly.
And I do expect off topic, ghost stories, complaints about dry rot, etc in any thread or conversation- as you might expect me to steer the thread, started by logos, back to topic ; )
Now, I do hope we are all having fun, I am!
P.S. I have been in my 21' ted hood design flush deck racing sailboat in the upper columbia in 50kt (bare poles) winds- the sailboarders say it is, "nuking" at those speeds. 10' seas in the Columbia R.? Yes. (and that is upper, not mouth)
But hey, it's just a big mud puddle, right? lol


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## erps

> Life rafts and EPRB's are very important to have when offshore period/QUOTE]
> 
> especially when not adhering to time tested weather windows for sailing particular routes.


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## TSOJOURNER

I really have to point out, Keelhaulin', the arrogance is not mine. I just don't need the fearmongering. Have I claimed to be the world's greatest sailor? Have I claimed to be able to singlehandedly sail my dinghy through the eye of every hurricane? ... hmmm... no, I just object to needless rehashing of how horrible the weather is this time of year in the northwest pacific. Really don't. Other people you have advised not to go north may have been planning to and perhaps shouldn't. I am going to consider going north and gather information about it as much as I like- will I ever make the trip now or at some other point? Who knows.
But sometimes just talking about something has people up in arms just because they like to be up in arms. Rather than have a useful discussion about the difficulties of the trip, the absolute vehement goal of the gallery is to see that the merest mention of going north is immediately and irretrievably stamped out of the perpetrator's mind.
Perhaps this is because if one doesn't have first hand experience of something but has heard so much about it, the urge to throw in two-cents is too much to resist.
Privately, and in other circles, sailors and I talk realistically about the trip north and other ocean areas of difficulty because we know that sooner or later we will encounter conditions for the first time or again that become survival situations. I suppose we could all float in aqeous solutions in vaulted tanks seeing the world through mediums... we might live forever that way... but for me, I like sailing, and while I am not afraid of dying and of the sea, I certainly have the greatest respect for both.
I do have to say though that wading through it, many of you have offered useful knowledge and first hand experience- thank you!


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## TSOJOURNER

here it is in short (lol):

Logos:
Hmmm... what is the trip really like from someone who has done it this time of year?

Everyone:
Oh my god, don't do it, please, you'll die, oh god help us, he's going north, are you out of your mind, you poor fool, someone chain him to the dock.

Logos: hmmm... what is it really like going north.

Everyone: oh god, hear that, he's going north!? You poor sap, what is wrong with you, don't you know it is impossible or worse? You'll die for sure, those that have done it died and those that didn't wish they had, you'll be killed for sure and the murderer of anyone who dies at all in the same year anywhere in the world...

get the idea at all, guys? what about little bit chill? lol

Because I was really hoping for some (more) useful info but it's not that important. I thought the post would be interesting because there is so much hullabaloo about it, but not this provocative.

So, on to some other post. Moderator let's just delete this one jeesh!


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## TSOJOURNER

*Voyage of madmen...*



logos said:


> Of course I'm considering it. I am also considering heading to Hawaii first. Then to Japan to see a friend and then home.


I hope you're taking a jet :laugher

I think you give yourself and your boat far too much credit.

I've made seven passages to/from Hawaii and once across from Japan. The world record for this crossing from Japan to Calif. in a small boat I think is 21-ft. Was done by an experienced Japanese sailor with a well thought out boat...not a Hunter 27.

You might survive the passage to Hawaii if you stay in the trades and pick the right month, but Japan is another matter all together. The hardest part about sailing to or from Japan is sailing to or from Japan. The only time to do it is in summer, typhoon season. This area of water near the warm 'black current' is typhoon alley. The typhoons around this area are far more frequent than in the Caribbean. If you make it alive it was because *Jesus* was at the helm.

Sorry, you're talking total nonsense...go solo.

Good luck and please share your stories with the group if/when you make it. It should make for some interesting reading.

BTW, read _"Desperate Voyage"_ by John Caldwell. You sound exactly alike...

Be jolly,
A Mustad


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## CharlieCobra

Nah, Caldwell had no friggin' clue what he was in for and nobody to tell him different.


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## TSOJOURNER

*GO Then!*



logos said:


> here it is in short (lol):
> 
> Logos:
> Hmmm... what is the trip really like from someone who has done it this time of year?
> 
> Everyone:
> Oh my god, don't do it, please, you'll die, oh god help us, he's going north, are you out of your mind, you poor fool, someone chain him to the dock.
> 
> Logos: hmmm... what is it really like going north.
> 
> Everyone: oh god, hear that, he's going north!? You poor sap, what is wrong with you, don't you know it is impossible or worse? You'll die for sure, those that have done it died and those that didn't wish they had, you'll be killed for sure and the murderer of anyone who dies at all in the same year anywhere in the world...
> 
> get the idea at all, guys? what about little bit chill? lol
> 
> Because I was really hoping for some (more) useful info but it's not that important. I thought the post would be interesting because there is so much hullabaloo about it, but not this provocative.
> 
> So, on to some other post. Moderator let's just delete this one jeesh!


Selfish and immature thinking on your part, really.

Go. Do it! No one is stopping you. However, take responsibility for your own actions and decisions. Go solo; don't carry a life raft or EPIRB so as not to endanger anyone else. No guts, no glory, they say!

Then you can come back to this posting and say how stupid and cowardly we all are. I'd gladly accept that ridicule and admonishment. Perhaps you could become a hero to other newbie's and write a book telling of your exploits (See "Deparate Voyage"). You might even encourage other salty dog wannabes to shove off in their trailerable boats for adventures in world cruising. Heck, who needs experience or sound vessels anyway? It's all about wind and water, no?

Be jolly,
A Mustad


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## TSOJOURNER

If you do go invest in a nice waterproof camcorder and some mounts so you can show us how nice it was  Maybe even with a satellite up link like the VO 70's have. That way some footage would survive after the ditch (jk) I'd pay $20 to tune in


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## dabnis

Logos,

Made two trips this time of year from San Francisco to Victoria in a Destroyer Escort, a long time ago. Most of the time the bow was totally buried. My dad and I had a commercial salmon troller out of San Francisco and in an attempt to pay the expenses went out when we shouldn't have. I have on the water experience from San francisco to Crescent City and have observed many breaking bars all up the Oregon coast. You asked for information, take it or leave it.

Dabnis


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## GeorgeB

Oh darn, you guys ran Logos off, just when this thread was getting interesting. O.K., in the interest of the “fairness” doctrine I’ll attempt to answer Logos’ questions about heading North in winter albeit I’m a bit chagrined in that he would even ask them as he is obviously a better sailor than even the professionals that frequent this board. I can only speak to the Santa Barbara to San Francisco leg. Someone else will have to chime in on points north. Costal Conditions: You will be sailing against the North American Longshore current so expect about a knot difference between boat speed and SOG. This will vary depending upon where you are on the coast. Tides: They mainly affect bar crossings and the approaches to San Francisco. In a normal winter the major ebb can run five knots though the Gate (and can reach 7 if it has been raining that week). You will feel the current effects as far south as Montera and north to Duxbury Reef. The ebb running against the normal current pattern will cause the sea swell to break (north) or increase the wave heights dramatically (south). Expect shore like breakers all along the South Shoal. You will experience breaking waves inside the ship channel too. Wave patterns: You will be fighting two distinct wave patterns. One from the North (caused by the Longshore current and a second one about 30 degrees to the West which is generated by storms in the Bearing Sea. Remember that Mavericks, where the Big Surf competition is held, is just outside Pillar Point Harbor and the highest recorded wave that was ever surfed happened there. Weather: The typical winter storm is a tropical warm front pushed to California by a sagging jet stream. Expect 30 – 40 knot winds or more from the south causing a contra wind wave pattern of several feet resulting in confused seas. These storms will also effectively close down the entrance to all the harbors, bays and coves for small craft. These storms come in “pulses” every four to five days. In between storms, the winds will veer back to the north and blow 25-35 kts down the coast. A high settling in over Western Nevada/Eastern California for a more than a week will tend to calm the wind conditions along the coast. For specific information about entering harbors, you should consult your copy of Coastal Pilot.

Are you referring to the “Clipper Route” to San Francisco? The gold rush clipper ships stayed 400 or so miles off the coast until about 40* north before turning east to San Francisco. That route would put you between the Bearing Sea Storms and the tropical depressions from the south. The old time whalers would sail north from Hawaii up west of the high to the Bearing Sea and then return back south along the coast. Returning sailboats from Hawaii do a modified version of this except they cut the corner across the high. The high isn’t there in the winter so you will get gales and big storms to speed you back to the coast.

O.K. Logos, there is my assessment of winter along the Central California Coast and is gleaned from my thirty years experience of sailing these waters. I was hoping that you would be a little more open about yourself because your lack of communicating makes you sound like a newbie at best and a troll at worst. (You’re not Smackdaddy in disguise are you?). Please tell me more about yourself. I know that Ted Hood was an America’s Cup Defender and sail maker, but did not know that he built small sail boats. Do you have a picture? Please give me more details on your new Hunter 27. Was this an internet sale or was it from a relative? I’m in the process of outfitting my C34 for offshore passages and I’d be interested in your preparations. I’m especially curious on where you are going to fit a thousand feet of rode on your boat and how you are going to manage an autohelm, radar and all your other gear off of a pair of Group 24s. This year in the Pacific Cup, there were a pair of Moore 24s entered as double handers and it was rather bizarre when we crossed paths with one of them about a thousand miles out to sea. One of my friends is a Moore 24 driver out of the Royal Vic in Canada and has done that regatta on the Columbia several times. I’ve driven by the Columbia numerous times but never sailed there. I hear that it really honks around the Dales. Is that where you sail (and not Portland?)<O


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## sailingdog

Logos-

Basically, people who are familiar with the west coast and sailing conditions there during this time of year are saying it isn't a good idea. The weather is generally against you, the coast is usually a hostile lee shore.....

You apparently don't seem to understand what they're saying or just don't like the answer... and are now whining about it... really classy... really mature... I'm sure someone with your level of maturity is more than capable of making his own mind up as to whether to go or not.

If you want to go... go... Ain't no one stopping you. The one thing I'd add is that since you're so gung ho about it... don't take the EPIRB... leave the Coasties alone... IMHO, they really don't deserve to risk their lives for a fools who go out against all good advice. This may sound heartless... but there's more than enough work for the Coasties without you making more.



logos said:


> here it is in short (lol):
> 
> Logos:
> Hmmm... what is the trip really like from someone who has done it this time of year?
> 
> Everyone:
> Oh my god, don't do it, please, you'll die, oh god help us, he's going north, are you out of your mind, you poor fool, someone chain him to the dock.
> 
> Logos: hmmm... what is it really like going north.
> 
> Everyone: oh god, hear that, he's going north!? You poor sap, what is wrong with you, don't you know it is impossible or worse? You'll die for sure, those that have done it died and those that didn't wish they had, you'll be killed for sure and the murderer of anyone who dies at all in the same year anywhere in the world...
> 
> get the idea at all, guys? what about little bit chill? lol
> 
> Because I was really hoping for some (more) useful info but it's not that important. I thought the post would be interesting because there is so much hullabaloo about it, but not this provocative.
> 
> So, on to some other post. Moderator let's just delete this one jeesh!


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## KeelHaulin

sailingdog said:


> If you want to go... go... Ain't no one stopping you. The one thing I'd add is that since you're so gung ho about it... don't take the EPIRB... leave the Coasties alone... IMHO, they really don't deserve to risk their lives for a fools who go out against all good advice. This may sound heartless... but there's more than enough work for the Coasties without you making more.


Yeah; that's about the best advice I have heard on this thread. If you want to do it, go alone and leave all the distress radios and EPIRB behind. We really don't want to hear about the life of some young guy being lost while trying to save your @ss. And to say that my advice to wait for a better time of year is "arrogant" is well troll-like.

The last person I told to wait was SimonV and while he made it it was a pretty damn rough ride for him setting out into a gale. Everyone here was worried that he would not make it through the strong gale conditions in his 39' boat while singlehanding; and when we did hear from him his report was that it he had had a difficult time, broke the vane on his autopilot; but was OK. He had to reef down to 3'rd reef and hold on with water coming over the stern and flooding the cockpit. That was a 3 day downwind sail from SF in early May; in a 39' boat uke

Honestly; the only reason I am posting to these threads is to hope that people who read them will listen to our advice and heed the warnings. We don't really give a rats @ss if you take the advice or not; but at least we told you the truth about the conditions and hopefully others considering doing the same will read the post and consider the issue of the coastal conditions (at all times of year) here more seriously. I have not sailed in that kind of weather; and when the time someday comes that I do you can bet that I will be prepared to do so and it won't be a situation where I decided OK I think I will sail into a patch of ocean that is known for breaking 40' seas for a couple of weeks. It will probably be during a passage when the weather is predicted to be moderate but turns far worse than predicted. But I'll be prepared for it; it will pass and I will continue on to the destination; as most experienced sailors do.

I won't put myself in harms way just to say "I did it". That's what you might call 'suicidal' or 'manic' or just another form of someone in a mid-life crisis that is looking to have the hell scared out of them so they can justify continuing with their life. In any case the best place for someone with that kind of mentality is in a Psych ward (for their own protection); not off the CA/OR coast during the storm season. But it's a free country unless you have killed or mamed someone else and you have every right to go out there and live, or die. Please don't drag anyone who is not as screwed up in the head as you are out there with out having them at least read this thread first. And again; please don't take an EPIRB, it really is not a "mommy button"; as you would be using it for that purpose in your ill-planned trip. SAR simply won't come if you are too far out of if the conditions are bad anyway; so it would just be a waste of good money.

As far as gleaning good info goes; well it really makes no difference. We are all happy to provide information, but we don't want to encourage you to go so really there is a lot more info you would get if your trip plan was in agreement with the correct weather window. There are not many people who have sailed up or down the coast after early November; at least not too many who have lived to tell. There is a reason why Pt Conception is called "The Cape Horn of California"; people have been trying to explain why it's a bad idea to set out at this time of year for a pacific voyage. The north coast of HI and Mavericks get the biggest surf between Nov-Jan; and it's for a reason. The storms are roaring across the 20's and 30's most with hurricane force this time of year. It's a well known fact; it's almost a continuous SCA/Gale/Storm warning. But what do I know; I've never sailed in it (nor do I ever plan to).

Should we start another "BFS - Rescued" thread now or wait until he is actually picked up?

Fair Winds and Following Seas - Oh wait... that probably won't apply... 

BTW - the price of Dungeness Crab is dictated mainly by how bad the weather is. If it's bad the price is high; because the fishermen won't go out to retrieve their pots; and they lose lots of gear if the storms don't subside. If the weather is clear they can stay out but as soon as another storm starts coming in they ditch the pots and head in. Every year a boat or two is lost because they wait too long (get greedy). It's always a good idea to follow what the fishermen are doing; oh wait, you are a foolhearty BFSailor not a coastal fisherman, you probably won't be close enough to a port to head in if the WX is coming.


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## sailingdog

Keelhaulin'

The advent of EPIRBs has reduced the effectiveness of Darwin's theories IMHO.


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## TSOJOURNER

logos said:


> ...
> P.S. I have been in my 21' ted hood design flush deck racing sailboat in the upper columbia in 50kt (bare poles) winds- the sailboarders say it is, "nuking" at those speeds. 10' seas in the Columbia R.? Yes. (and that is upper, not mouth)
> But hey, it's just a big mud puddle, right? lol


I love it.


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