# $3000/mo cruising budget



## Don L

Determining a cruising budget and trying to find out if it will work seems like one of the most important parts of cruising, yet is one of the hardest to find any answers on. Before I got into sailing I spent 2 years researching the cost issues and in the end kind of just gave up and placed myself on a path to cruising anyway.

The question frequently becomes all jammed up with "it depends" and "it costs whatever you can afford to spend" answers. Which are true, but of little value for planning. Planning becomes even more important for those not so young when the decision to stop working and go cruising equals an end to a career and little chance of returning to work at anywhere near the level they were when they sailed off. The goal becomes balancing leaving while young enough to get the most of of cruising, while working long enough to not run out of money.

But I'm becoming more and more job burnt out and more and more caught in the dream, so find myself looking for the answer. To do it I spend lots of time reading though blogs looking for what people are spending and comparing it to what they are doing. I read things like the "Interview with a Cruiser Project", waste my time on the various forums, and just plain taking a guess based on what it costs me to live on land and maintain my boat now and have a budget in mind.

The budget I'm currently planning for is $3000/mo, which has to cover basically everything. Now this isn't a down and dirty budget, and it isn't a live high budget. But it is expected to be a comfortable budget that allows sightseeing and not eating out of a can budget. And as an average amount is one that I could cruise on till I no longer an able (that $3000/mo, $36,000/yr budget becomes $52,500 when I'm 75 at 2% inflation).

If you are in the cruise for $500/mo group this isn't a thread for you. But if you are in a similar position for cruising on $3000/mo I would love to see comments on what you expect this to mean far as your cruising plans.


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## Tallswede

Don, I'm right there with you. Burnt out from working, eligible for retirement, have some savings but don't want to run out of money. The whole inflation thing gives me the heebie jeebies. I know I can survive barring anything drastic happening but want to do more than survive and wifey is not interested in constant camping. So you see I've been reading a couple of the active threads concerning cruising on a budget here and do believe $3K per month would be pretty good. I have the dream to do the great loop, seeing as many of the sights along the way as we can so I know it will take a little money to do it what with hitting a marina regularly and other sight seeing and travel. I have yet to decide on a boat to do this with but am leaning toward a smaller sail boat 27'-32' as I also want to do the Bahamas and Carribean eventually. I'm also very drawn to smaller trawlers too especially for the Loop. Another possibility I have considered is a trailer sailer. Something like a Hunter 26/260 would be very economical and if we decided to do our cruising in seasonal legs we could trailer quickly to where we wanted to go and trailer back home if a hurricane or very cold weather threatned. I know with any of these options we could keep our cruising expenses at $3K per month under normal conditions. What has me nervous is whether we can do it and keep the house. Guess I'll have to sharpen my pencil up some more and do the math. If it was just myself I would go this year but I have to keep in mind the family responsibilities. 

Kevin


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## xort

What is the 3000 meant to cover...

boat payment?
Health care?
Home mortgage?
Home maintenance, taxes, utilities?
Alimony or child support?
Etc.

To summarize, is the 3000 just cruising expense money?


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## Don L

xort said:


> What is the 3000 meant to cover...
> 
> boat payment?
> Health care?
> Home mortgage?
> Home maintenance, taxes, utilities?
> Alimony or child support?
> Etc.
> 
> To summarize, is the 3000 just cruising expense money?


It is to cover everything. But I wouldn't have a boat or home payment/expenses.


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## Total Chaos

Our buget is based on a monthly outlay of around 5K/ month when we start our long term cruising. Our boat is 65' on the deck so boat associated costs are significantly higher and we have kids. I would think that your $3K will serve you well. There a lot of factors, not the least of which is where you intend to cruise.


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## Total Chaos

I should also mention that our budget is for the total cost of crusing... no land based costs are included in that number ie house, etc. The budget does include all insurances, mainenance, food, fuel, fees of all kinds, excursions, upgrades, airfare etc.


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## hellosailor

A lot depends on where you want to be. If you're not on Medicare, good medical insurance can still cost you $1000/month. Depending on your health and any pre-existing conditions, there's room for a lot of variation in that. And if you're outside the US, the whole picture changes again. Changes from year to year, too, as some countries are now requiring that you have your own insurance rather than burden them.

Then there's where you stay at night. Let's say a 35-foot boat, and marinas easily ranging $2-5 per foot per night for transients. $70-175 per night? Split the difference and say $125 per night, and five or ten or is it fifteen? nights at a marina can rip your budget up.

I think the bigger question is not whether anyone can cruise on any particular budget, but whether you can cruise in the style you want, in the places you want to go, at whatever may be a realistic budget for that.


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## outbound

Just re did a spreadsheet with the finance guy to figure if we should own the boat totally or leave part owned by the bank. In short figured will sail until 80 and have resources to buy total boat from bank when we want which is why we did analysis. Figured in flights, all insurances, all living /boat expenses and hanging on to house for the first few years. For our 46' boat you're looking at ~50k/yr as base for the boat and living on boat.Figured in replacement schedule for sails/rigging/through hulls/ batteries etc. If you add in holding onto house/cars etc. you're looking at more. As TC says depends on boat size,age of boat and cruising ground. Realize you may need additional health insurance if your stateside insurance wouldn't cover you out of country. Many things are trade offs. Have watermaker- don't buy water, Need to service watermaker. Have wind/sun don't burn diesel for electricity- need initial outlay. Do a spreadsheet with an outside partner. Makes it all very real. Also thought 3k/m was realistic. Still think quite do-able but want "play" money to sight see. Now as we edge into the life find may have underestimated expenses.


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## Don L

I did a retirement spending thing with my finance guy a few weeks ago and he said my plan worked. Of course all the really means is that if I spend $3000/mo my money lasts as expected.

But since my finance guy is older than me and still has to work I don't really believe he knows anything more than me. And of course he knows nothing about the boat side of the question.

Far as keeping the house and paying off the boat loan, this all is betting that you can do better with the money that the interest getting charged. Hard to say, the only real asset is cash in hand (not invested in stocks, just cash)


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## Group9

hellosailor said:


> A lot depends on where you want to be. If you're not on Medicare, good medical insurance can still cost you $1000/month. Depending on your health and any pre-existing conditions, there's room for a lot of variation in that. And if you're outside the US, the whole picture changes again. Changes from year to year, too, as some countries are now requiring that you have your own insurance rather than burden them.
> 
> Then there's where you stay at night. Let's say a 35-foot boat, and marinas easily ranging $2-5 per foot per night for transients. $70-175 per night? Split the difference and say $125 per night, and five or ten or is it fifteen? nights at a marina can rip your budget up.
> 
> I think the bigger question is not whether anyone can cruise on any particular budget, but whether you can cruise in the style you want, in the places you want to go, at whatever may be a realistic budget for that.


The two biggest budget busters when we were cruising were marinas and airline tickets to and from the US. We spent a lot more nights in marinas than we should have, just because we had the money, and we liked the convenience for shopping and eating out. But, I bet we dropped about a $1000 per month average on airline tickets.

I own my boat, too and our medical is only $440 a month with boat insurance around $150 per month. I think we would have done fine on $3000 a month if we just spent more time on the hook and didn't fly home so much.

As it was, I was dropping around $4000 to $5000 per month, and it ended up cutting my trip short.


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## Total Chaos

I copied this over from Crusiers Forum... I thought it was extremely usefull. Hope I'm allowed to do this...

S/V BeBe says

"It is always somewhat amusing to me to read what people think they will spend once they are out cruising full time. The old adage was to calculate what you think you will spend.......and then double that figure and you will be close to reality. We calculated that it would cost roughly 35k to cruise very economically, and could do it on 24k if cut to absolute bare bones and did not do cosmetic maintenance on the boat. (And wouldn't that be a penny wise/ pound foolish thing to do!) We also knew that if we assumed 35k would do it, then the actual cost would likely be minimum 50k annually.

On 1 May we celebrated our 4th anniversary as full-time cruisers and I reviewed our actual expenses to date. Please note that I record every single penny we spend daily. I don't just ball-park numbers by making assumptions; I literally record every penny spent. In 4 years we have spent $212,619.72 and I posted the breakdown on our blog at S/V BeBe: Log and Costs

Boat insurance is a hefty chunk of that total and each year it is a hard decision to pay that large annual premium. But we personally knew as casual acquaintances 7 boats that have been lost in the South Pacific in the past 2 years, so we reluctantly renew the insurance each year and fork over the money. It isn't like the old days. If your boat is lost anywhere other than in open ocean, you will be responsible for paying for the environmental damage. That cost alone will be more than the annual premium for any insurance coverage. Friends recently lost their boat on a reef in Samoa and they did not have insurance. They had to pay $12,500 for hitting that reef before they were allowed to depart Samoa. As much as I would love to apply that 11.6% of our cruising expenses to being able to spend more years out here, that would be a reckless decision.

Whatever you think it will cost to cruise.....double that number."

Judy
S/V BeBe
currently in Malaysia and halfway through our circumnavigation


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## Total Chaos

If you go onto Judys blog for S/V Bebe, every penny is accounted for on a sweet little spreadsheet it's worth checking out.


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## Total Chaos

Here is a link to their cruising costs page, it's one of the better I've ever seen.

S/V BeBe: Log and Costs


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## outbound

Thank you for the link. Around 50k seems right. Think it's more if you do the med or west coast of Europe.


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## ebs001

Good person financial management should always involve having a budget whether your cruising on a boat or living on land. Good financial management means keeping track of expenses. I'm a crappy money manager but my wife on the other hand has everything budgeted and tracks *all* spending using Quicken program.

Making a proper budget takes a lot of work initially to get figures which make sense and cover all expenses. Then a constant review is necessary to ensure the budgeted amounts reasonably reflect actual expenditures.

Can a couple live on $3,000 per month? Sure, but is that the way your going to live or is it way high? Each couple has to figure it out for their comfort level.

Some expenses:
-food
-insurance
-medical
-fuel
-maintenance
-repairs
-marina
-moorings
-booze
-entertainment
-dining out
-communications; cell phones and internet 
-port entry fees
-land travel
-water
-charitable donations

On top of these there are expenses involved in land based stuff.


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## svzephyr44

I too was frustrated by the "it depends." I own a 42' sailboat and have done some cruising in North and Central American, Portugal, Spain and the Canaries, and in the Caribbean.

Initial Capital Costs

I owned my boat. It went through three phases: family cruiser, racer, and finally full time cruising. Each transition resulted in a major capital outlay. My racing outlay was almost completely for safety equipment: life raft, jacklines, harnesses, excellent life jackets, throwing lines, etc. Moving to cruising I had a new set of expenditures: dinghy, outboard motor, solar panels, water maker, SSB radio, email modem, satphone, mast steps, tricolor, AIS and so forth. Not to mention little things that cropped up: boom preventers, dingy hoist, etc. I strongly suggest that you make these expenditures before you retire and are living on a fixed income.

Ongoing Maintenance

Hard to quantify as it is very dependent on your cruising style. I have traveled about 4 to 5 thousand nautical miles per year since I was cruising. I have had to replace sails, paint the bottom regularly, and do a lot of small things that add up to a lot of money - I dragged in a fierce thunderstorm and had to replace the rudder, sails wear out or at least need to be restitched, shackles break, blocks pop, the wear and tear of salt water on little things like cotter pins creates a constant stream of maintenance expenses.

Clearance Costs
Where you cruise can have a major impact on your budget. I went from Key West to Guatemala. Checking into Mexico was about $400, Belize about $350, Guatemala another $350. After Guatemala I chose to return to the United States. I sailed past Belize and Mexico as just stopping in either for one night would have cost me the $350 to $400 clearance fees again. The Belize authorities came and looked for me (they apparently were tracking me on AIS) until they determined that I was just going to sail past them. Some islands in the Caribbean cost me $10 and some cost $400.

Cost of Living
I stopped at about 12 islands in the Caribbean over the course of four months. (Why is a story for another day, see my blog.) Prices in Guadeloupe rivaled those in Paris. $50 per day for groceries. $12 per pack smokes. Prices in Sint Maarten were so low that Wal-Mart would go out of business.

Dockage
Marina prices are all over the map. The winner, the Atlantis Resort on Paradise Island at $6.50 per foot per night - use of the resort was extra. Prices of $1.50 per foot were common. Mooring balls ranged from free to $20 per night. In most places it was possible to hang on the hook for free. Fuel and Water prices were pretty consistent wherever I went.

Lifestyle
I am almost always cruising solo. The only person I need to please is myself. I know many cruising couples where the need to agree results in higher costs. Not infrequently the rub is anchoring out vs going into a marina. Not to mention the need to return home to visit family. When I am out of the United States I don't fly home to visit my children. From most places outside the US that is a $1500 or more per person expenditure. It is just not in my budget. I know a not insignificant number of couples where one spouse needs to "visit family" while the other spouse sails the boat to the new destination.

The home fires
What will you leave behind? Many cruisers maintain a residence in the US. Many more have storage lockers full of stuff that doesn't fit on the boat. I have shed it all - no home, no car, no storage locker (OK my son does have a couple of boxes of memorabilia.)

Repairs
Paying someone else to repair your boat is very expensive. What is worse is that a large number of the people are totally unqualified or take the easy fix. For example I was having trouble with my refrigerator. I was told I need to spend $2000 on a new unit. A friend who knew what he was doing purchased a $150 part. That solved the problem.

Boat Parts
As bad as West Marine's reputation for high prices they are bargain basement compared to the cost of parts outside the United States. Budget Marine in the Caribbean had prices that were 135% to 150% of West Marine prices. Some countries charge import duties that can be very high. A very typical strategy is to invite friends to come visit and have them bring the parts with them to a duty free port such as Sint Maarten. Unfortunately now that the airlines are charging for extra baggage this is not the bargain it once was. Costs to ship packages outside the United States are extraordinary high by US standards. A couple of hundred dollars and a couple of weeks to get a package is not unusual.

Budget Breakers
By far for me the biggest budget breaker is meals ashore. You meet some fellow cruisers. You agree to go ashore for a couple of drinks and a meal. Goodbye budget if you do this very often

Summary
Your budget for me is generous. I sail on less. I think that $2,000 per month is a reasonable floor if you intend to do more than sit in a single place. That assumes you also carry insurance on the boat and have some form of heath care insurance in place.

FYI
1. One thing that surprised me was that the daily and monthly rates for dockage vary between the US and Europe. In the US break even for paying the monthly rate is 6 to 7 days. In Europe it is closer to 25 to 26 days.
2. If you are going to rely on Medicare remember that it provides no coverage outside the United States (OK and Guam.) Some cruisers purchase medical evacuation insurance so that they can get transported home if they get sick.
3. Remember if its "Red, Right, Return' you are in America!

Fair winds and following seas.


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## svzephyr44

*Cruising Destinations*

After I finished my previous post it struck me that there was an area that I had not really addressed in the lifestyle section: cruising destinations. If I was naive about anything (actually I was naive about a lot) it was how slow boats travel. I would decide I wanted to go to a destination, check _World Cruising Routes_ to make sure I was at least in the ballpark of appropriate courses and times of year and off I would go. Yes, I actually soloed across the Atlantic on a whim. I have learned that planning 100 NM per 24 hour day is about right for me. I can go faster but it is much more uncomfortable, a major factor when sailing 20 to 25 days non-stop. And there are the days when the wind just does not want to cooperate. I have learned the hard way that it is as important to figure out when you will get to a destination as it is when you are going to depart. Destinations "close out" for certain seasons. I have been told you don't want to be in the Med in the winter. It takes a certain amount of courage (?) to stay in the Caribbean in hurricane season particularly because hurricane coverage will most likely double you insurance costs (for me $1300 to $2800 per year so far depending upon the cruising area with no coverage after 24 hours of single handing until I make port for 12 hours and no named storm coverage in the hurricane/typhoon belt. Some cruisers will put their boat on the hard and fly "back home" until the season reopens. Some will live aboard. Living on the hook in bad weather for 4 or 5 months is hard on the spirit. I know cruisers who were unable to get off their pitching boats for a week or more in bad weather.

Times have changed - particularly with Schengen in Europe. The need for many cruisers to get out of Europe for an extended period has made the marina costs in typical wintering over places like Turkey much more expensive. (an aside - if you are planning to cruise to Europe and don't know what Schengen is make sure you find out before you leave the United States.)

No matter what you have read in the books about cruising in Europe and the Caribbean you are just one of a few thousand boats in the game. The interest of people on shore is your wallet. The only place that I experience the old cruising "why don't you come to lunch at our place" was in Newfoundland and Miquelon Island. Cruisers in the high latitudes are still a bit rare (but not in Nova Scotia.) The Ham radio operators who took care of me on a daily basis while I was offshore invited me into their homes and drove me around to the store and to show me the sights. It was a wonderful and welcome experience.

Pets
I am the proud staff to "XO the Wonder Cat." Please see his Facebook page or watch him on Cats 101 on Animal Planet. (Note that dogs have owners and cats have "staff.") He has kept me sane more than once on long trips offshore. But having an animal on board raises another set of issues, some financial. It cost me more to clear XO into English Harbor ($50) then it did _Reboot_ and crew ($22.) It is difficult to find someone to watch your companion for free if you want to take a multi-day shore excursion. I have not investigated putting him into paid care but rather have altered my own travel plans on his behalf.

Fair winds and following seas.


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## vega1860

Tallswede said:


> Don, I'm right there with you. Burnt out from working, eligible for retirement, have some savings but don't want to run out of money.
> 
> Kevin


I was there 8 years ago, except that I had a sh!tpile of debt. Sold everything, paid off the debt and quit my job. Now, debt free, we have been cruising for seven years very comfortably, averaging about $1K per month.

Groceries are now our biggest expense, but it depends a lot on mooring fees and maintenance. Our boat has run, on average over 25 years, about $100 a month for maintenance, including a new suit of sails, a new engine and one rebuild, standing rigging twice and running rigging five or six times. Mooring rates have ranged from free or low (Under $700 per year in Wrangell, AK) to over $800 a month in San Francisco.

Right now, mooring is $79 per month. Groceries are running about $500. Beer and cigars about $400 (I drink premium draft beer from a tap only). If there were a restaurant in town we might spend more but a pizza once in a while runs around $25. Internet access $25 a month, electricity at the boat around $60. Call it $1200 a month. During the summer when we are actively cruising, subtract the mooring, electricity, internet and half the beer. Make it about seven or eight hundred a month plus the occasional shoreside entertainment and temporary transient moorage.

Income exceeds outgo. Happiness

Laura is working on a detailed article about our budgeting process.


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## Sal Paradise

I would think that if you maintain a house then coming back for hurricane season should save you some money annually. Go home for 4 months, saves $12k per year minus hauling out and transport home.


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## blowinstink

vega1860 said:


> Groceries are now our biggest expense, but it depends a lot on mooring fees and maintenance.


Seems to me that if you could get that seasickness under control you'd be able to manage those grocery bills 

Glad you chimed in here. I was beginning to think I'd need to find 5K a month . . .


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## smackdaddy

Awesome thread.


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## engineer_sailor

The honest and open discussion about actually cruising costs is refreshing. I too have been frustrated with the "it depends" response and I've been (slowly) working on collecting actual data from various cruising blogs (especially families) as there is far too much anecdotal evidence and built-in assumptions. Perhaps we could collectively put together and share spreadsheets with collected/contributed data via Google Docs or similar. 

One big issue I've noticed is separation of true living expenses and amortization of big costs. For example, suppose someone choose to spend 15k for a piece of equipment to upgrade the boat. Totally skews the yearly outlay. Was it necessary? Just for comfort? Was it unique to the boat or preparation (e.g. could one pay more up front for the boat and not have to put that money out as part of yearly costs).

Also, some costs don't scale with the number of people so it doesn't matter if its a solo sailor or a family of 10. Others are directly correlated to people so it matters if its just a couple vs a family.

Settling on a set of categories might be helpful too. Is beer food? Fuel?  or does it deserve its own category? 

Thanks to everyone who is contributing real experiences and data with cruising costs. Makes the dream of cruising seem possible and helps others develop plans.

Josh


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## outbound

Very much appreciated Zephyr's input. Counter argument is wait until you need it before putting major improvements. First year with our boat was coastal with some multi day hops. Both my wife and I continued to work. Had no need for generator or watermaker or Sat phone. Installation about the same cost if done before or after building as builder put in appropriate electrical/plumbing knowing they were going in at a later date. This allows funds to grow until expenditure required.
Had ssb and all electronics installed with building in hopes of ridding of gremlins and learning use before taking off. Held off on satphone as believe prices will fall and technology improve.
Had detachable storm jib set up after building as wanted to research exactly ho to do it but deck fitting installed with building.
In short would advise improvements should be done after you are comfortable you have made the right decision and just before you actually need them even if this means it will be done after salary tap has been turned off. Still agree the should budget before hand.


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## svzephyr44

engineer_sailor said:


> One big issue I've noticed is separation of true living expenses and amortization of big costs. For example, suppose someone choose to spend 15k for a piece of equipment to upgrade the boat. Totally skews the yearly outlay. Was it necessary? Just for comfort? Was it unique to the boat or preparation (e.g. could one pay more up front for the boat and not have to put that money out as part of yearly costs).
> Josh


An excellent point. Let me expand by pointing out that one's risk profile can have a major impact on costs. I just paid the 5 year maintenance bill on my life raft - $1,700. When we popped the raft at Vane Brothers it appeared to be immaculate. Why the cost? Because just about everything in the raft was out of date - emergency food, first aid kit, flares, etc. The hydrostatic release was replaced. Of course the inflation cylinder needed to be replaced too. Could I have gone 6, 7, 10, 15 years without doing this maintenance? Sure. Would the raft have been OK if I needed it. Most likely. But my personal risk profile said "pay the money." Since I solo sail I have an immersion suit as a backup. Do I need it? Knowing it is on board makes me feel a lot more comfortable.

Sometimes a major expenditure turns out to be a risk mitigator. I had a factory installed autopilot on board. Since I do long distance cruising and power is always a problem during the winter months (the solar panels just don't get that much sun) I installed a Monitor wind steering system - they are about $3,000 but I added a special mount so I could still use the swim platform - total cost about $6,000. Halfway between the Canary Islands and Sint Maarten the wheel steering failed taking the Monitor with it. I ended up using the electric autopilot for the rest of the trip. When leaving the British Virgin Islands six months later the electric autopilot failed. I made the trip to the Bahamas and then back to the United States on the vane.

In other threads about boat purchases I have noted that many people underestimate the cost of getting a boat ready for cruising. Frequently they will reserve a small amount after the original purchase price for "outfitting." The boat may seem complete or near complete. My experience is that most used boats are sold when many of the components are old - sails, dingy motor, running rigging, etc. The boat will sail but many of my friends discovered that they were not comfortable without upgrades - new sails, life raft maintenance, a new dingy etc.

How does one budget for the unexpected? Anchored in a place I have been safely for a couple of months at a time I was hit by a freak thunderstorm - winds to 50+ knots and I dragged. New rudder and rudder post $2,000. Not to mention the cost of the haul out. (I had to wait 7 hours for TowBoat US. They were unwinding the 7 boats that had dragged into each other on the other side of Fleming Key.) In a thunderstorm off the North Carolina coast I lost the sacrificial on my jib. Restitching costs and repairs about $500. Tow in the Canaries when I snagged a fishing net - about $200. By the way I didn't know I had snagged a fishing net. The engine overheated when I tried to motor into port. It turned out nothing was wrong with the engine, it was the 2" rope wrapped around the shaft.

I do have a reserve fund for the smaller eventualites. But the big ones just blow the budget. Case in point: I just had my Xantrex inverter fail. No water damage, no voltage spike, no apparent reason. It was a little over 2 years old. I called a Xantrex "out of warrantee" repair center. I was told that the unit could not be repaired. I was also told they fail all the time and the specific component that had failed. I called Xantrex and complained. They offered to sell me a new unit at a discount. The discount turned out to be more than I would have to pay for the unit at Defender Industries I ended up purchasing a new inverter/charger from Victron Energy It cost twice what a new Xantrex unit would have cost. However I expect it to last more than two years and Victron's customer service is excellent. Certainly this was not an item in my budget.

A final note. Sometimes a shift in cruising grounds can result in an unplanned expenditure. When I took _Reboot_ to Europe I ended up purchasing a 220 Volt 50 cycle battery charger. (Actually its a "world charger" - 90 Volt to 250 Volt 50 to 60 cycles.) My solar panels were keeping the batteries charged but they were in sore need of a deep charge cycle. Since I was about to cross the Atlantic I chose to purchase a charger. It turned out to be serendipitous as when the Xantrex failed it was the only battery charger on board. Since it is winter in the US with ten hour days I did not have to be super careful about using the 12 volt systems on _Reboot_.

After four plus years of cruising I now reserve about 20% of my annual budget for the unexpected. Note: This does not include the unexpected costs of the beautiful women I meet along the way ... Most months it is the biggest chunk of my budget but as the alternative is to hit my retirement savings I am more comfortable doing this then hoping for the best.

Fair winds and following seas.


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## svzephyr44

engineer_sailor said:


> Is beer food?
> Josh


Of course. As are rum and smokes. There is an open question on the cost of tattoos.


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## svzephyr44

outbound said:


> Very much appreciated Zephyr's input. Counter argument is wait until you need it before putting major improvements.


Actually it is not a counter argument. I agree with you completely. Not only for the big things but the little ones too. One mistake I made (out of a universe of thousands) was purchasing items because I would need them in the future. Charts - they get revised. Flares - they go out of date. Tow Insurance - your paying for 12 months. When I came back to the United States I had getting tow insurance on my mind. If you travel the ICW you know why. It took great personal discipline (something I don't normally have) to wait until I was off the coast to call and renew my insurance. I most likely only got a week or so of additional time but I promised myself that I would wait until I actually needed the insurance.

The only exception to this rule was noted in my previous post - purchasing parts outside the US. In addition to the higher prices VAT is a killer. Yes, you can get it refunded but that is another process and another wait.

I waited until I was crossing the Atlantic before I purchased a Sat Phone. I was pretty comfortable with the SSB radio as long as I was only about 500 miles offshore. But I was not comfortable with it when I was 1000 miles offshore. A note on that - I know there are people who long distance cruise with just a VHF radio. I guess they assume they can raise another boat if they get in trouble. During our 27 day transit from Tenerife to Sint Maarten we saw exactly 2 other boats and heard a total of 2 more on the radio. I don't choose to bet my life on VHF.

As mentioned in my previous post redundancy is another cost driver. When I originally went SSB I used The Airmail Home Page
Although the software is free - thank you Jim Coreman - the SCS Pactor Modem was about $1,200. Since then the folks at http://www.winlink.orghave created a new mode called RMS that does not require a modem. It is slower but substantially cheaper. When I purchased the Sat Phone (a IsatPhone Pro - Inmarsat I ended up getting email too. Not cheap as I pay for airtime but I am happy to have a redundant system on board. BTW you are right the cost of these phones is dropping - dropping even faster is the cost of solar panels.

Anyway, I have spent far to much time posting. That may be because it is 21 degrees outside and _Reboot_ is covered in snow - in North Carolina. Oh well.

Fair winds and following seas.


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## cranki

Interesting thread with some good information. I am also working towards retirement and probably a 2-3K monthly budget for everything. Boat is paid for and I have no mortgage so I believe it is a reasonable figure. I am living aboard and gearing up while working (new dinghy, motor, replaced steel fuel tank, etc., etc.) 

I did notice that the 5K budget was for a high dollar 53' boat. My insurance, maintenance and marina fees should all be significantly lower. I am on an older, solidly built 41 foot ketch. I do most of the work on her myself and consider it prudent, responsible, commonsensical to learn all her systems inside and out in order to be self reliant while out on the water. My cruising plans are somewhat modest; I want to knock around New England and the Canadian Maritimes and then sail down to Florida, Bahamas, Caribbean. I am not a big sight seer and love hanging around at anchor swimming, snorkeling, reading, picking guitar, riding my bike...all free. Thinking 2Kish for me alone and add another K to that for periods when my girlfriend is along as there will be more marina stays and dinners ashore.


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## Faster

Eye opening thread. To be honest I would have guessed the average full time cruiser would spend half that.. goes in line with what most are saying is unrealistic expectations.

I know a couple who spend much, much less than $3K/month, but a small, simple boat, no refrigeration, mostly anchor off, rarely eating at restaurants, vegetarians shopping local produce, and mainly keep to more out of the way places avoiding higher prices in tourist traps. But they are clearly atypical.



cranki said:


> Interesting thread with some good information......... Thinking 2Kish for me alone and add another K to that for periods when my girlfriend is along as there will be more marina stays and dinners ashore.


... and conventional wisdom seems to suggest you'll double that!


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## xort

3000 is doable. But its also a dangerous level. Why? Because you have SOME money, and its easy to decide that you have SOME money to spend on an item that could be seen by some as an extravagance, yet you deem it to be a necessity. 
We did it when we upgraded our dinghy. The old one was certainly serviceable. It held air and we got around. But as a very old design it was a very wet ride. We got tired of that so we spent $3000 on a new AB RIB. Much nicer ride and we're happy. Necessity or extravagance? Keep up those kind of expenses and the budget can quickly expand to 6000/mo!!

We also keep track of almost every penny we spend so we see how these decisions affect us over time. When we control our urges, we can cruise for months at around $1500 per. But that ain't our annual spend rate!!! 

You should be able to calc some fixed monthly numbers to start with:

Health care and health insurance including prescriptions
Cell phone
Boat insur
Towing insur
Food
Booze
Cigs or other habits
Dining out based on number of times per week and level of price you're willing to pay
All other fixed monthly spending like netflix, yachtclub, porn paysites, etc

Diesel; how many miles will you travel per year? Easy to run some numbers. If you are coastal cruising, just figure motoring 100% of the time and any sailing time will be a bonus. Honest coastal cruisers will tell you they motor almost all the time or at least motorsail. Offshore is a totally different equation and you'll need to look at replacement costs of the sails instead. Figure new sails and rigging about every ten years as a starting point although that is widely variable.

Dock time: highly variable depending on your level of acceptance with always running to shore in the dink. Also, some places you might want to visit are not easily accessible via anchoring. You can get by with almost zero docktime but will you want to?

Bottom maintenance: Can you dive to clean your bottom periodically? Divers run from $50 to $200 to clean the average 40' boat and you likely need 3 to 4 per year. Then there is the haulout, blocking and painting of the bottom every 2 to 4 years. 

I'll repeat the question; where? Big differences in where you plan on cruising.


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## cranki

You speak the truth about motorsailing. I am guilty of that on my yearly 2 week cruises out of Long Island Sound. I clean my own bottom as well though it is exhausting with just a snorkel. (honestly, I can only do about half of it in one session) One of the items on my list to buy before leaving here is a hookah system...either that or get certified to SCUBA and buy tanks.

Good point about where. I will likely make some of my destination decisions based on cost. Is it worth it to go there? Will provisions/parts be cheaper where?


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## svzephyr44

cranki said:


> My cruising plans are somewhat modest; I want to knock around New England and the Canadian Maritimes and then sail down to Florida, Bahamas, Caribbean


Of all the place you mention - and I have pretty much been in them all - my favorites were the French Isalands - Micequlon; Longlad: Saint Pierre  and Newfoundland. A very short season but off the beaten path, the closest I have come to "old style" cruising with helpful and interested people on shore. I would also suggest Guatemala and the Rio Dulce. Another great favorite of mine.

Fair winds and following seas.


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## vega1860

blowinstink said:


> Seems to me that if you could get that seasickness under control you'd be able to manage those grocery bills


The seasickness is under control now, thank you. Dramamine is cheap.



> Glad you chimed in here. I was beginning to think I'd need to find 5K a month . . .


After reading through this thread, I realize that I can't afford to go cruising after all. Time to pack it in and move ashore


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## travlin-easy

I've also decided that based upon this thread, I'm gonna have to stop cruising - however, based upon my own experiences over the past decade, I can cruise like a king on $3,000 a month. I'm pretty much self sufficient, self employed and know how to catch fish better than most folks on this forum, so that can make a big difference. I also do 90 percent of my own repairs, and 100-percent of the boat's standard maintenance. Health costs are a non-issue with me, I'm old and on medicare with a $58 a month supplemental policy. I have a good dental and vision policy, that only cost me $35 a month. My major expenses aboard are gasoline and food - that's it. Whoops, almost forgot the booze expense, which is about $200 a month when I have lots of visitors, but normally much less. My Internet connections are mostly free Wi-Fi that I find pretty much everywhere I travel. Same is true for TV, which either comes in via my onboard antenna from local broadcast stations, and I get all the movies I want when I have an internet connection through www.crackle.com .

Some days I eat oatmeal for breakfast, hotdogs for lunch, and canned stew or ravioli for supper. Then there are days when I grill a salmon fillet for supper, add some vegetables to the grill while the salmon cooks, mix a tall Margaretta and pig out. Nice way to watch the sun set in the Florida Keys or Bahamas. Then there are days when a fresh caught mahi mahi hit the grill, or I bread some mangrove snapper fillets with beer batter and pan fry those rascals - OH YEAH! Wash that down with an ice cold Coors Light, turn on a good movie on the flat-screen TV and enjoy life on the hook.

Last winter, I spent less than $1,200 a month to live at a marina in the Florida Keys, and I had a ball, lived damned well, and ate out at a restaurant at least once a week.

All the best,

Gary


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## xort

Health costs are all over the place. 
Gary gets Medicare supplement for $58/mo, almost nothing. But you have to be 65 to qualify. At the other end of the spectrum are the invincible young people who will decide to spend zero. We're late 50's, that in between space where some of us have zero issues and others are already dead or infirm from major health issues. So each cruiser will need to evaluate this cost based on their situation. I've been self employed all my life, not dependent on some corporate or govt teet for care. So I pay for catastrophic health care and self fund the majority of routine care.
YMMV


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## travlin-easy

Xort, I've been self employed since 1975, so I know exactly where you're coming from. And, at age 73, I still work 5 to 7 days a week. The difference now is I have all the work I can handle, the income is better and the expenses are considerably less than they were 20 years ago when I was shelling it out as fast as it came it.

Good Luck,

Gary


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## hpeer

svzephyr44 said:


> Of all the place you mention - and I have pretty much been in them all - my favorites were the French Isalands - Micequlon; Longlad: Saint Pierre  and Newfoundland. A very short season but off the beaten path, the closest I have come to "old style" cruising with helpful and interested people on shore. I would also suggest Guatemala and the Rio Dulce. Another great favorite of mine.
> 
> Fair winds and following seas.


We have similar tastes. I'll bet you know the bakery by the water, near the carosell, with the lovely lady behind the counter and the worlds best pastries!

That alone is worth the trip. Been there on Bastile Day yet?


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## Minnewaska

Best way to limit a cruising budget to any level ($500 or $3000) is to limit the boat to fit. The remaining question is whether you want to live on that boat.

Size, equipment, condition, all variables.

To cruise perpetually, with no ongoing income, you likely have to own the boat free and clear. Let's face it, your assets would need to generate income to pay the loan, which means you would need more assets than you owe. Might as well pay it off. The exception might be having an annuity, like a retirement check that is used to make loan payment. However, that a very inefficient use of retirement cash flow.

Therefore, you are down to two major components, as I see it. Boat care, where you will have little choice after picking your vessel, and standard of living, where you have a lot of choice. 

Personally, I want to be comfortable and be able to enjoy myself. Both are subjective. On a long term cruise, I don't need to be entertained like a never ending vacation, but I don't want to deny myself a restaurant, sight seeing, etc, for being on a voluntary budget. I also want to be able to fly to the see the kids, whenever necessary or at least a few times per year. I expect good medical care. These are not required for everyone, but that's the reason the cost to cruise is so variable.


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## Group9

Yeah, that's a good point to emphasize. The guy who figures out how to successfully cruise on $500 a month is not going to be on a 50 footer with all the bells and whistles.

I lived in some pretty spartan conditions (think "hooch") as part of my job I recently retired from.

In a lot of ways, it was always kind of refreshing to get back to basics like that.


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## outbound

Minnie- flip of that is to pay attention to your assets. If the loan is <5% ( which it is) and return on investments is >5% ( which it is) makes sense to play with other peoples money. Also get tax benefit which I will lose once (and if) we ditch the house. Owning a depreciating asset such as a boat should be looked at as a cash flow exercise. Admittedly rate of depreciation varies but given there is always some rate of inflation the longer you run a loan the more you are paying things off with "cheaper" future dollars. If appropriately positioned your investments reflect this more than the artificially low loan rates of recent years. Would keep boat fully insured regardless as it's now required in so many places and it is a major asset. In short one size does not fit all. Caveat is you always must maintain enough liquidity to pay off all loans should review suggest that's financially prudent.


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## joethecobbler

travelingeasy - 73 years young !
you are incredible. I hope I'm still sailing if I make it to 73.
truly inspiring. hope you get to do another keys run.


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## chucklesR

I'm watching Xort on this subject. 
I don't have 3k a month to budget out (about half that) - but I have almost zero medical expenses as I'm retired Navy. 
I can maybe last a month or two on the bare minimum life style but then my urges to eat at restaurants and maybe dock a couple nights is going to kick in. 

I'm doing the boat upgrade and build out now while I'm working and hoping it will hold up for the years I think I can cruise before my health says it's time to go ashore. 
Of course rebuilding and upgrading from what seems like a rusty bolt and couple washers is taking a lot more than I expected. 

My serious goal at this point is be part of the 1% that actually make it away from the pier.


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## Cruisingdad

travlineasy said:


> Last winter, I spent less than $1,200 a month to live at a marina in the Florida Keys, and I had a ball, lived damned well, and ate out at a restaurant at least once a week.
> 
> All the best,
> 
> Gary


Are you sure about those numbers Gary? I would love to see how, and I do not mean that I am questioning you, but how in the world did you do that? Am I missing something?

City Marina (the cheapest here) is $19.75/ft, plus tax, plus that ridiculous, water tax, plus electricity fee. So if you have a MOI 33, which is what I think you have, your marina bill alone would be $755.86. (19.75x33 + tax + water fee + 45/mo 30amp).

That leaves $444/month left over. How do you eat, eat out, pay for gas, groceries, bottom cleaning ($2.50/ft), booze, diesel, insurance, etc on that amount of money... especially with the cost of groceries down here!?? We have not even factored in a bottom job every other year, sight-seeing, travelling, rent cars, clothes washing ($6/load), and God forbid something breaking.

Wow. I am impressed. If I could get by with twice that number I would be happy!!

Brian


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## vega1860

outbound said:


> Minnie- flip of that is to pay attention to your assets. If the loan is <5% ( which it is) and return on investments is >5% ( which it is) makes sense to play with other peoples money. Also get tax benefit which I will lose once (and if) we ditch the house. Owning a depreciating asset such as a boat should be looked at as a cash flow exercise. Admittedly rate of depreciation varies but given there is always some rate of inflation the longer you run a loan the more you are paying things off with "cheaper" future dollars. If appropriately positioned your investments reflect this more than the artificially low loan rates of recent years. Would keep boat fully insured regardless as it's now required in so many places and it is a major asset. In short one size does not fit all. Caveat is you always must maintain enough liquidity to pay off all loans should review suggest that's financially prudent.


Well, that is one solution.

In my experience, is a far better idea to simply own your boat and have no recurring financial obligations at all. It is impossible to properly manage investments without constant attention; the kind of attention that is quite impossible in any ordinary yacht at sea. (Mitt Romney may stop reading at this point). Maybe you can do it if you have a large yacht with a full suite of satellite communications with redundant back ups (And a crew) or if you hop from marina to marina each day along the coast where you can always reach your broker or connect to your online account. But what is the point?

If you intend to go voyaging to far shores in an average cruising sailboat, you will be out of touch from time to time, sometimes for quite a while. Personally, I don't want to be concerned that my portfolio did not perform or that a monthly bill might go unpaid. My solution is to have no recurring financial obligations (One exception is our annual property taxes on acreage we own). If we did have something like life insurance or such, I would just pay it forward for a year.

I manage our investments closely while we are in port but when we set sail for an extended cruise or long passage, I put trailing stops on all our holdings and forget about them. The worst thing that can happen is that we will arrive at our destination to find we have a lot of cash and no equities in our brokerage account.

I think, and this just my opinion, that cruising should be free from the cares and anxiety of shore life. Bringing them with you is counter productive. We have met a lot of people out cruising who have to fly home frequently to manage their affairs "Back home". The cost is a drain. The home base a source of stress rather than the security it is supposed to represent and all too often the boat winds up for sale in some distant port because the would be cruisers found they could not sail off into the sunset with one foot still on the dock. For us, it would completely destroy the cruising experience.


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## Cruisingdad

Well, let's see...

If you come to the keys, get ready for an eye-opener.

THe lowest cost marina here is $19.75/ft. My preferred marina is $21.50/ft. These lengths are OAL NOT LOA. In other words, they measure from the tip of your anchor to the back of your davits. My 40' boat runs right a bit less than $1,000/month.

My insurance is very low for what I have. The reason is it so low is I have fifteen years with them and zero claims and a lot of experience. My insurance costs for gulf coast, Fl, East coast and bahamas are right under $3,000/year for a $225k policy. Before you say, "I will not have a $225k boat..." let me tell you that a very good friend of mine, with equal experience, got a quote not long ago for the same policy, $125,000-$150,000 replacement, and he was quoted $5000. He did find it cheaper, but I would love to hear what others have to say about this.

We are a family of four. Our eating costs run about $1200/month down here.

We do not eat out much. Our eat-out budget is roughly $100/month. That basically is one good eatout.

My gas and diesel bills run about $150/month if we do not move much. That is 5g/week for outboard and 10g/month diesel.

My maintenance costs have been tough. I do all of my own maintenance and repairs. I feel I am a very knowledgeable boater and the tech editor for these boats. I also bought my boat new and she is only 10 years old this year (technically not that old as I did not splash her in 04). My average maintenacnce, not including major refits (bottom jobs, sat phone purchase, life raft or repack, etc) runs me about $225/month averaged out. This includes all things boat related but not major purchases.

My bottom job on my boat, which we do about every 24-30 months, is about $1600.

I dive my own boat except in some areas where the water sucks. I am a certified scuba diver and I generally do it once a month. If you do not want to invest in that gear or do it yourself, the costs down here run $2.50/ft.

It costs us $6/load down here to wash clothes. We average about $120/month. We bought a WonderWash to reduce those costs some, but that may not be for everyone.

Just adding those costs up, we are about $3,245. That is no boat payment, no plane tickets, not much eatout, don't smoke cigars, no rent cars, no sight seeing, no major purchases, no major problems, and ZERO health insurance costs. However, we are feeding four, not one or two, which adds to our costs (we only carry a catastrophic policy which runs us $500ish/month I think... note that I did not add that into the numbers). That is also being at a marina, which we do not always do. We are on a ball in Boot Key right now, and loving it. That is not an option in the summer though (way too hot). 

When we were further north, our costs were less. We were running about $1000 for the same groceries, slip was closer to $650/month, and laundry was much cheaper ($2/load in many places). However, when we went to Key West, we stayed at the cheapest marina in the basin (I hate the balls there), and that marina cost $34.50/ft/month PLUS about $60/week in electricity! Just our marina bill was pushing close to $2000!!!

Many of the comments and prices you will see from people vary because of the area. For example, my parents do not spend anywhere near that in the PNW. Insurance is much less and marinas are a lot less. Food is also cheaper. However, that is not 12 month cruising (at least not for me!!). 

So, the morale: can you do it on $3000? Sure. However, you will have to budget yourself. The keys and other places will be on a short schedule or you will have to 'vacation' there. Also, one major system malfunction and you can blow those numbers out the roof. My mom and dad lost the engine on their Tayana last season. The cost to replace? $25,000. How does that factor into your equations!???

Anyways, those are my real world numbers. The reality is that we spend much more than that, but we are a family of four. Others will see lower costs depending on the boat, the location, how many people, and your risk tolerance (and luck).

Brian


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## -OvO-

Don0190 wrote "the only real asset is cash in hand (not invested in stocks, just cash)". 

I got some bad news for you, bub.


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## Minnewaska

outbound said:


> Minnie- flip of that is to pay attention to your assets. If the loan is <5% ( which it is) and return on investments is >5% ( which it is) makes sense to play with other peoples money......


An arbitrage makes perfect sense for those with the ability to take more risk, which is usually the result of having an income that can replace a loss in this strategy. When its all you have, those asset values can decline temporarily and leave you without the ability to meet short term obligations. It would be very risky.


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## travlin-easy

Brian, the marina cost was $750 a month, but every day when the weather cooperated, I would motor through Sister Creek and sail offshore to the outer edge of the reef and catch a bunch of snapper, grunt, Spanish and king mackerel, and an occasional Mahi, all of which were quickly filleted and frozen in zip-loc bags filled with a small amount of water. That makes a huge difference in the cost of food. Now, I don't have a diesel engine - just an old A4 that is pretty economical at lower speeds.

I borrowed an old bicycle from a fellow cruiser at the marina and used it the entire time I was there for transportation to and from the grocery stores and the cheapest booze store in the keys, which turned out to be the drug store at the north end of the island. Most of the time I made my own Margaretta mix, which is pretty easy and inexpensive - about $4 per gallon. Melon liquor, which normally sells for about $29 at the local liquor store, was only $3.99 a bottle at the drug store. I bought the least expensive coconut rum I could find, and it was about $12 for a half-gallon. That's a lot of booze. Coors Light when purchased by the 30 can case, I found for about $20, which translated into a two week supply.

There was a produce stand directly across from the marina next to the gas station where I purchased lots of fresh vegetables and bargain basement prices. I found that if you washed them in bleach water they tended to last forever, V/S not washing them which meant they lasted about a week before turning nasty.

I purchased a fair amount of Chef Boyardee canned, Italian sausage ravioli on sale at the local grocery store, plus canned stews, etc..., all of which are a full meal and kept the food budget fairly low. For lunch, most days I fired up the gas grill and cooked either some Kielbasa, Italian sausage or a fish fillet, the aroma of which seemed to bring guests for lunch from long distances down the dock and inside the marina office. One afternoon I grilled half of a large egg plant that I sliced into half-inch thick pieces, basted with olive oil, sprinkled with garlic powder and then sprinkled Romano cheese on that - Wow! Lunch that day cost under $1 and I had leftover egg plant, so the following day I cut it into chunks, put it in a pot, poured on some spaghetti sauce, added some grilled Italian sausage, and after cooking for 20 minutes, sprinkled on lots of Parmesan cheese - OH YEAH! Another great meal, and only cost about $2.

There was a relatively young couple in Boot Key Harbor, Jim and Lynn, and Lynn just purchased a solar oven. She figured she would try her first bread making attempt with the solar over out on me. That was the best, homemade bread I've tasted in years. That went real well with the Egg Plant Parmesan. I made my own garlic butter by just adding garlic powder to soft margarine and mixing it thoroughly. When I spread that on the fresh, warm bread I thought I died and went to heaven. Wow!

There were a lot of days when I had fresh-grilled hot dogs for lunch. Hot dogs are dirt cheap, and really tasted great with chopped Vidalia onion, sweet pickled relish, a slice of American cheese wrapped around it and some yellow mustard. Hotdog rolls were always on sale at the grocery store. I also used the hotdog rolls for Italian sausage lunches as well.

Most nights I grilled fresh fish fillets for supper, but there were nights when all I wanted was something light. The grocery store had frozen TV dinners on sale all the time, many of which cost just $1 each if you purchased 10 of them. Some were actually very good, which was a pleasant surprise. I created a method of cooking them, which eliminates the need for a micro-wave oven, and does the job equally as well, and maybe better because the frozen dinners don't tend to dry out using my method.

I made a special lifting rack from a length of brazing rod that allows me to lower and life the TV dinner into a 7-quart saucepan that has about an inch of water in the bottom. The water is brought to a boil and in about 10 to 12 minutes that TV dinner is piping hot.










Now, when I needed extra money, such as the funds to have my full enclosure constructed, I plied my trade as a musician/singer/entertainer. Most nights provided sufficient tip money to take care of a week or more of expenses.

My biggest expense, underway, was gasoline. As you know, you cannot sail much of the ICW north of Miami, and gasoline in Florida was outrageously expensive, often more than $5 a gallon at the marina, while right across the street at the gas station it was $3.29. It was a gotcha for sure. The A4 burns about .5 to .75 gallons per hour and provided speeds to 7 MPH on calmer days. When I could, that jib sail went out and really cut fuel expenses a lot. Some days, by as much as 50 percent.

When It got so cold I had to stop at a marina so I could hook up to their electric and run the heat pump, the cost per foot ranged $1 to $2 depending on what the traffic would bear. But when you're freezing and shivering in the cockpit, you didn't really care about the cost - you just needed to get warm.

So, after returning home, I tallied up the expenses, divided them out over the six months I was gone, and my figures are pretty darned accurate. The next trip, though, I'll have a Honda 2000i generator onboard, which will eliminate the need for warming up in the marinas. The generator will run my 14,000 BTU heat pump with power to spare.

Cheers,

Gary


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## xort

chucklesR said:


> I'm watching Xort on this subject.


Stalker!!!


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## outbound

Health insurance remains an issue as many policies don't provide coverage when you leave the states. Would greatly appreciate advise on how people have handled this problem.


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## vega1860

Just read an old (2012) article by Lin Pardey. Excerpt: "I thought about how difficult sailing has become for those who have computers and internet on board their boats. There is always someone you should email, always some potential helpful website you should visit, webinar you should listen to, forum or facebook page you should visit."


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## Don L

outbound said:


> Health insurance remains an issue as many policies don't provide coverage when you leave the states. Would greatly appreciate advise on how people have handled this problem.


Always the 900 pound gorilla. Seems the biggest part that you need to decide is whether you are going to need US coverage. I've pretty much decided that unless you are rich or have some type of coverage from your old job etc, then you have to get out of the US to be able to cruise.


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## Minnewaska

Don0190 said:


> Always the 900 pound gorilla. Seems the biggest part that you need to decide is whether you are going to need US coverage. I've pretty much decided that unless you are rich or have some type of coverage from your old job etc, then you have to get out of the US to be able to cruise.


I think the best US care solution for a cruiser is to have a savings account that can buy you a ticket to fly home at anytime. Then buy a catastrophic policy to cover major illnesses only or has a huge deductible. Pay for ordinary health care as you go and expect a few thousand per year in ordinary expenses, depending on where you are. If you, lord forbid, get the big C or other major ailment, you're not bankrupt and you'll probably want to be home near family anyway. So far, it is highly confusing whether Obamacare will permit this strategy.


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## Don L

Minnewaska said:


> I think the best US care solution for a cruiser is to have a savings account that can buy you a ticket to fly home at anytime. .


I don't understand the need to be able to fly "home", just to good medical care that can be lots of non-USA places.


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## vega1860

Cruisingdad said:


> If you come to the keys, get ready for an eye-opener.


Wow CD! That's a pretty big nut to crack. I think it would affect my "Morale" too


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## CruisingCouple

Don0190 said:


> The budget I'm currently planning for is $3000/mo, which has to cover basically everything.


We we decided to go cruising, and got our boat, we could not afford to pay cash for the boat and fund the refits on it at the same time. So we financed part of purchase and decided we won't go cruising until we get it paid off. We are enjoying cruising local on the Great Lakes in the mean time.

We are also not job burnt out or anything, as we own our own business and will more than likely never retire from it. We want to cruise in the winter when the Great Lakes are frozen, for 6 to 8 weeks every year. And we do not want to cruise all over the world, only in the Caribbean.

When we get our boat paid off this coming May, she will be sailed down the river system to the Gulf in late summer and when she reaches the Caribbean she is never coming home. We will fly to where ever she ends up stored on the hard in a secured yard, splash her, enjoy our 6-8 week cruise, haul her out, fly home and go back to work for the rest of the year.

We have budgeted $10,000/year expense for our two month winter cruising vacations. And also have a smaller boat that we can still cruise with on the Great Lakes for summer enjoyment. Our expenses include haul out, storage and splash fees, insurance, plane tickets and living expenses. And we feel it will be very affordable for us as we are still working, still young (in our early 50's), and $10,000/year is quite cheap for us to enjoy 2 months "off" in the winter.

With everything we have put together, if you remove the plane tickets to fly home, and the haul out, storage and splash fees, I think $3,000/month is very reasonable for the rest of the expenses if you cruise full time.


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## vega1860

outbound said:


> Health insurance remains an issue as many policies don't provide coverage when you leave the states. Would greatly appreciate advise on how people have handled this problem.


Just a reminder, but -for Americans- the question is moot. We are now required by law to purchase health insurance. Whether it actually covers you or not is beside the point. Failure to do so will result in trouble with the IRS. Believe me, you do not want to be on the IRS "Naughty" list.

Before anyone asks what _I_ do about health insurance; as a disabled veteran I have full medical benefits from the VA. Laura, of course is still covered by her parent's policy


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## cranki

vega1860 said:


> Just a reminder, but -for Americans- the question is moot. We are now required by law to purchase health insurance. Whether it actually covers you or not is beside the point. Failure to do so will result in trouble with the IRS. Believe me, you do not want to be on the IRS "Naughty" list.


I think the fine is around $200. If so it is not that much of an incentive. I am 56 and healthy and just picked up a $5000 deductible policy for $394 a month.


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## vega1860

This is a hot topic, it seems. Laura just uploaded the budget article she has been working on. I think it is worth a look.

The Cruising Budget - A Big Subject


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## Don L

vega1860 said:


> This is a hot topic, it seems. Laura just uploaded the budget article she has been working on. I think it is worth a look.
> 
> The Cruising Budget - A Big Subject


Great just what we needed, another budget article that says "as much as you can afford" .


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## vega1860

cranki said:


> I think the fine is around $200. If so it is not that much of an incentive. I am 56 and healthy and just picked up a $5000 deductible policy for $394 a month.


I found this recent article from January 19th that suggests that the requirements are breaking down as more and more exemptions are added. Apparently, one may choose to pay a tax rather than buy insurance. It is a weird law. According to the article, it looks like you can pay the tax, wait until you get sick, then buy insurance due to the pre-existing condition clause.  Glad I am not in the health insurance business.

And now, having approached politics as closely as I dare...

:chaser


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## Minnewaska

Don0190 said:


> I don't understand the need to be able to fly "home", just to good medical care that can be lots of non-USA places.


As I said at the end of my post, I suggest one might want to be home with family, if they suffered from a catastrophic illness. I didn't mean to suggest flying home for all medical care.

That said, many people do come to the US for medical care, they can't get in other countries. Depends on where and what.


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## outbound

You break a bone,get appenditis, gall or kidney stone you are not flying home.


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## MarkofSeaLife

outbound said:


> You break a bone,get appenditis, gall or kidney stone you are not flying home.


For most medical you are not flying home.

If anyone has a $5000 deductable on their insurance they may as well stay where they are and get great medical services far cheaper than the $5,000. In fact in places like Panama, thats panama not florida, you get an american trained doctor who for $5,000 will probably transpant 4 or 5 of your limbs, give you a new heart, lungs and regrease your bearings and check under the hood.

America, as in the USA has definitly the worst medical system in the developed world and is out paced by clinics in the 3 rd world.

Medical is cheap, compared, in the rest of the world. Get out, look around and try it out.

Mark


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## Minnewaska

Let's keep the US bashing to a dull moan, okay. There is more than one medical miracle in my family that was treated here. I would be dead already, if not for our medical care. If I am diagnosed with cancer, while cruising the med, you can bet I will be flying home and will most certainly be able to.

I'm not trying to encourage others to do so. Suit yourself.


----------



## vega1860

Don0190 said:


> Great just what we needed, another budget article that says "as much as you can afford" ?


 Yeah, I know. But what are you going to say?

Cruising has cost me about $1k per month, more or less, over the past 7 years and I could certainly economize and do it for a bit less if I put my mind to it. I could also easily double or triple it without even buying a bigger boat. You have to set your own priorities and manage your own expenses. No blog post or book is going to do it for you. Only you know how much you spend and what you consider necessities.

I couldn't live ashore in Honolulu or San Francisco on less than $10K a month, but I know people who are doing it on a third of that. They live in smaller houses, In less affluent neighborhoods, have fewer kids, drive older cars and enjoy cheaper entertainment.

Cruising is the much the same thing.


----------



## svzephyr44

Don0190 said:


> I don't understand the need to be able to fly "home", just to good medical care that can be lots of non-USA places.


It is not a function of the quality of medical care, it is a function of money. If you are on Medicare in the US your reimbursement ends at the shore but not your coverage. If you get sick outside the US and fly home when you hit the shore Medicare picks up the Medicare share of the bills inside the US. In addition, for some supplemental insurance (such as the US Military Tricare for Life) the overseas reimbursement is a percentage of the US domestic reimbursement. So depending on your coverage it can make sense to return to the US not for better doctors but for more financial coverage.


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## Minnewaska

I think cruising cost me 3 grand a week, when the kids come along.


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## xort

Friend of mine was noticing a bit of difficulty breathing. Doctors in puerto rico were treating it as a breathing problem, lungs.
He happened to be going home to the US and stopped onto see his doc. 2 days later he was in surgery for quad bipass.


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## MarkofSeaLife

Minnewaska said:


> Let's keep the US bashing to a dull moan,


It is not USA bashing!
It being cognisant that $3,000 per month is not a lot of money and people can find different ways than spend huge amounts per month on medical insurance and then still be lumbered with air flights home and deductibles.

Yes, cancer and other gross terminal diseases are catastrophic, but should one sit at home their whole life in case they are one of the few, in percentage terms, who get cancer (4%), CVD, or something else?

Anecdotally, there have been very few, but some, admittedly, who die cruising from disease. In fact cruising probably gives people a much extended healthy life period.

Finally, flights home on an urgent basis are not discounted by the airlines. It might be fine flying from the Caribbean to the USA booking a flight tomorrow, how about further from home? Just as an example, a friend was flown home from St martin by a superyacht so they had no budget restriction, the next day, from st martin to Australia. Price.... ONE way... USD $4,200

So when cruising long range on $3,000 per month you need to factor in all the contingencies, unbiasedly.

Mark


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## travlin-easy

Guys and gals, I can assure you that quality medical care is not found in any particular nation - it mainly depends upon the physician administering the care and his or her abilities. I worked in two of the nation's largest hospitals for 15 years. Believe me, I would not allow 95 percent of the physicians and surgeons I worked with anywhere near me if I were to develop a serious health issue. Most, despite extensive training and many, many years of schooling, are not very good at the practice of medicine. And, I've worked with physicians and surgeons from all over the world. There wasn't a hill of beans difference in their approach to modern medicine. The best approach was plain, old, common sense, which unfortunately, among many highly educated people, isn't very damned common.

As for the cost, it's totally out of control in the U.S. and everyone knows it. The cost of a single day in the hospital is obscene.

All the best,

Gary


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## RainDog

Just noticed this thread, but I am very interested as $3000 per month is what we plan to live on while cruising. My plan is to spend $2000 per month, and leave $12K per year for insurance and major expenses (new sail, new dinghy, etc.). 

We own nothing on land, so all our money can be spend on the boat and living. We do 90% of our own work and keep a very simple boat. 

Few marinas, one or two meals a week ashore (lunches). We will only do this for a year or two at a time, so don't have as many major equipment replacement expenses as long term cruisers. Between cruising stints we will work but live on the boat (which is what we do now).

Great to hear from other people living on this budget and people who thought they could but could not. Keep the info coming!


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## mitchbrown

travelin is absolutely right in what he says, and the only thing I will add is this. In the past few years I have had the great displeasure of dealing with our wonderful medical system and the truth is, the greed in US medical system is staggering at every level, and incompetence is equally staggering. 

XORT says that someone was miss diagnosed in a foreign country and needed bypass surgery. 

3 years ago my sister died of a heart attack at 60 years. she had allergies all her life and went to see a rheumatologist whom did many tests and charged tens of thousands of dollars for his wonderful services. She was feeling some discomfort in her chest. I had heard about this and called her to urge her to get a stress test as our family has history of heart disease. She was convinced however that her doctors were so smart because they have lots of degrees and they were giving her the good and very expensive advice. 


After dealing with the medical system I feel that stories like this are the norm, its just that these people aren't around to tell their stories.


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## Minnewaska

MarkofSeaLife said:


> It is not USA bashing!





MarkofSeaLife said:


> .......America, as in the USA has definitly the worst medical system in the developed world and is out paced by clinics in the 3 rd world.......


Come on man, this was a bit of bashing.

For certain, there is a big difference between comparing the breadth and quality of care available in the USA from how it compares in cost or socialist access to it abroad. Some of the best docs and most modern medical technology is available within a couple miles of my home. There is no way a 3rd world clinic out paces it. On the other hand, it is undoubtedly the more expensive too. Two different arguments.



> Yes, cancer and other gross terminal diseases are catastrophic, but should one sit at home their whole life in case they are one of the few, in percentage terms, who get cancer (4%), CVD, or something else?


Who suggested anyone stay home? The discussion is about getting home, if you pull the short straw.



> Finally, flights home on an urgent basis are not discounted by the airlines. It might be fine flying from the Caribbean to the USA booking a flight tomorrow, how about further from home? Just as an example, a friend was flown home from St martin by a superyacht so they had no budget restriction, the next day, from st martin to Australia. Price.... ONE way... USD $4,200
> 
> So when cruising long range on $3,000 per month you need to factor in all the contingencies, unbiasedly.


Despite repeated efforts, you're really missing the point here. If I am diagnosed with a catastrophic, potentially terminal disease, I will pay what is necessary to get home to be with my family and thought most would. Maybe I'm wrong. Where's the bias? Anyone that wants to stay abroad is welcome to.


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## Don L

I believe the point is that if you have to pay for US medical coverage it will be a lot harder to cruise on $3000/mo.

Maybe we can move on now unless someone has cruised for $3000/mo while at the same time maintaining US coverage (paid coverage)

My planned $3000/mo budget for 2 people breaks down to:
food - $1200
boat (mooring, maintenance, insurance) - $1000
eating out & entertainment - $500
phone - $100
misc - $200


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## outbound

Be important to discuss this also in terms of size of boat,number of permanent crew and age of boat. I've been going back and forth to public profile in order to interpret posts. We are 2'in our sixties on 46' which is new. That's very different then a family of 4 on 53' which is 10y old due for new rig,sails and engine rebuild.. Please add particulars. Thanks.keep it going I'm learning a lot.


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## vega1860

Rant mode ON :hothead

For those not paying attention, the situation in the US, vis. health insurance is changing rapidly. The ACA has turned the insurance industry and the medical care industries upside down. The politicians are jockeying for position trying to avoid negative fallout from their constituents. The administration is issuing executive orders exempting favored political groups and pushing back implementation deadlines. The opposition in the house has voted forty times to defund the act but the senate refuses to vote on it. The individual and employer mandates have been postponed so as not to affect elections. The whole thing is not scheduled to kick in until 2015 (After the next elections) in the hopes that the Democrat party can hold their majority in the senate.

There is no telling what the landscape will look like a year from now and in 2016 we have national elections again that will give us a new President, while one third of the senate and all of the house of representative stand for re-election. By then, at the current rate of change, the US will be a completely different country. There is no guarantee that the money you pay out for insurance today will get you medical care when you need it down the road.

If you have a five year plan to go cruising and are concerned about medical services, I suggest you plan to have enough money to pay a doctor yourself. You will be amazed at how much money you save by dealing directly with your doctor instead of paying an insurance company to do it for you.

Above all, if you plan to go cruising, "Free your mind". Cut the leash and learn to depend on yourself instead of someone you send a check to every month.


Rant mode OFF


----------



## mitchbrown

Don0190 said:


> I believe the point is that if you have to pay for US medical coverage it will be a lot harder to cruise on $3000/mo.
> 
> Maybe we can move on now unless someone has cruised for $3000/mo while at the same time maintaining US coverage (paid coverage)
> 
> My planned $3000/mo budget for 2 people breaks down to:
> food - $1200
> boat (mooring, maintenance, insurance) - $1000
> eating out & entertainment - $500
> phone - $100
> misc - $200


1200for food and another 500 for eating out. Wooaa dude


----------



## xort

We have a high deductable health plan for the big one. Cost is around 350/mo. Varies widely by state. As part of a cruising decision domicile should be investigated. You can use a place like St Brendens Isle in Florida as your mail forwarder and mailing address but have a domicile in another state, and register the boat in a third if you choose.


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## Don L

Don0190 said:


> I believe the point is that if you have to pay for US medical coverage it will be a lot harder to cruise on $3000/mo.
> 
> Maybe we can move on now unless someone has cruised for $3000/mo while at the same time maintaining US coverage (paid coverage)
> 
> My planned $3000/mo budget for 2 people breaks down to:
> food - $1200
> boat (mooring, maintenance, insurance) - $1000
> eating out & entertainment - $500
> phone - $100
> misc - $200


The above was based on my current spending budget by taking out my land house expenses. I would expect that people want to live same basic quality of life when cruising that they were on land. But a better breakdown of the gross areas could be done if I really kept such detailed info, but for explanation:

Food - includes everything your normally buy at a grocery type of store. That is actual food, soda, beer, toilet paper, paper towels, cleaners, health products like soap

Boat - includes all things related to the boat. Insurance, permits, moorings, slips, maintenance, repairs, upgrades, haul outs. And it has to include an averaging of the big ticket items that come up every few years. The $1000/mo is really what the past 5 years of boat ownership have worked out to be and don't really have some of the bigger things like replacement sails in the number as I haven't done that yet.

eating out and entertainment - Includes dining out, movies, sight seeing costs including related travel. So basically dining and any money you spend on non free things done for just fun.

Phone - I don't really know what this might also include but my wife is typical in that she doesn't like the idea of being out of communication with the family.

Misc- includes everything that doesn't fit into the other areas, like cloths hair cuts, health reated costs


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## Group9

mitchbrown said:


> travelin is absolutely right in what he says, and the only thing I will add is this. In the past few years I have had the great displeasure of dealing with our wonderful medical system and the truth is, the greed in US medical system is staggering at every level, and incompetence is equally staggering.
> 
> XORT says that someone was miss diagnosed in a foreign country and needed bypass surgery.
> 
> 3 years ago my sister died of a heart attack at 60 years. she had allergies all her life and went to see a rheumatologist whom did many tests and charged tens of thousands of dollars for his wonderful services. She was feeling some discomfort in her chest. I had heard about this and called her to urge her to get a stress test as our family has history of heart disease. She was convinced however that her doctors were so smart because they have lots of degrees and they were giving her the good and very expensive advice.
> 
> After dealing with the medical system I feel that stories like this are the norm, its just that these people aren't around to tell their stories.


Everyone has horror stories because they happen. I had a friend (in the US) who suspected he was having an appendicitis attack. He went to the emergency room, and they gave him ant-acids and sent him home. That night his appendix ruptured. He was in the hospital a week recovering.


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## Don L

why post a health care rant on this thread, I believe everyone understands the health issue


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## newhaul

Don0190 said:


> why post a health care rant on this thread, I believe everyone understands the health issue


Would have been better if he had posted the financial s however the cost for quality care is a major concern for most budgets to keep in mind.


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## outbound

end of day- cruising expenses including health care for me and my bride are budgeted at~50k/yr. That includes 4 airplane tickets from Caribe, annual haulout and us doing zincs/bottom/oilchanges/heads and other routine maintenance. Also expect need for another 5-10k/yr into pit fund for unexpected expenses and expected replacements/major services. In year one which has been part time. Have spoken with owners of sisterships and other cruisers with similar plans/boats so believe this is realistic but we shall see.
Sorry about the rant- I really liked helping people its just a shame folks don't realize for insurance companies there are three groups
healthy-paying premium- profit
sick getting services-paying premium- less or no profit
dead not paying premium, not using services -revenue neutral . Everything flows from that for them. End of rant


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## Don L

outbound said:


> end of day- cruising expenses including health care for me and my bride are budgeted at~50k/yr.


I agree it is a major issue, it just is that we could sidetrack almost any cruising discussion on it.


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## Group9

Don0190 said:


> I agree it is a major issue, it just is that we could sidetrack almost any cruising discussion on it.


And, there are several different ways of dealing with that expense. Some are right for some people and different ones are right for others.

Hard to find a one size fits all budget for medical.


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## outbound

Other thing I wonder about is boat insurance. Any advise about how to lower this expense would be greatly appreciated. Shop this periodically but a bit of a catch 22. Experience and credentialing may bring it down but can't really get experience without doing it. I want to sail across the Atlantic. I would prefer to not have paid crew ( way too expensive-budget buster for me), or sail with folks I don't know. Sailing friends have their own boats and doing their own thing. Starting to do passages as mom and pop and so far so good. Would want four on boat for transit but others interested are in same boat as me as regards experience or less. Have thousands of miles offshore but mostly Bermuda and back. Question ends up self insure or just suck it up. 
Related issue is credentialing- How much is worth it? What's the pay back? Understand in EU some is required. Seems silly to sit in some of these courses but others will definitely fill the vast areas of my lack of knowledge. Often have learned more messing with a fellow cruiser fixing their or my boat or playing with the SSB or other electronic aid then in a course. So far the ones I intend to do make no difference to my insurer such as the Mack diesel course, Lee's multi day weather course or the Safety at Sea course. Getting ASA certs hold no interest. Thinking about getting a 50T but how much does this really apply to what we are doing? Input from people who have been there done that would be greatly appreciated.


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## MarkofSeaLife

Don0190 said:


> The above was based on my current spending budget by taking out my land house expenses. I would expect that people what to live same basic quality of life when cruising that they were on land.


This is a corect premis to start a budget. And for me its pretty corect in that I enjoy my food in a similar price bracket as home, same for entertainment, booze at bars and number of times eating out.

Then some people have another two options... 
A) To go cheaper than they were at home, perhaps due to go now philosophy. Yes that can be done to an extent but can create some unexpected hardships when reality sinks in, boat stuff breaks, and life happens.
B) retirement "We've been saving all our lives now lets hit the world and have fun!" By jingo, by crikey, thats gotta be the fun way! However, its easy for any budget to suddenly inflate so even those with tons of dosh to chuck about need to be quite careful, at least in the first year.

Remember too some other things throw a spanner in the works... Our currency is 20% lower than what it was 12 months ago. Spending 20% more than budgeted for can be quite a difficulty.


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## Don L

good question to ask your insurance company because what we say doesn't mean anything

I know I get a discount for 3 days of Captain training they my insurance provider made me get a few years ago


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## svzephyr44

outbound said:


> I want to sail across the Atlantic. I would prefer to not have paid crew ( way too expensive-budget buster for me), or sail with folks I don't know.


First - I soloed across the Atlantic. Nice feather in my cap. Not something I would choose to do again. It is a very tough trip. On the way back I brought on crew. I used https://www.findacrew.net/. Yes, I had to pay for the service. There are a number of other places to look for crew - I think Sailnet may even have a "crew wanted/available section." I did this because an Atlantic transit takes 3 to 5 weeks. None of my family, friends, associates etc. were willing to devote that amount of time to looking at the ocean. And frankly, there isn't much else to do. Veteran cruisers will tell you: transits stink, destinations are wonderful. The most important thing is knowing the people for a while before you set off. My objective was always at least two weeks. I have some documents I now use with potential crew - since this is off topic I will not post them here again but they are available on the links section of my web site.



outbound said:


> Other thing I wonder about is boat insurance. Question ends up self insure or just suck it up.


My simple answer - can you financially afford to lose the boat and all its contents? If the answer is no then you need insurance.



outbound said:


> So far the ones I intend to do make no difference to my insurer such as the Mack diesel course, Lee's multi day weather course or the Safety at Sea course.


I took Safety at Sea to encourage my ex-wife. It was one of the best sailing learning experiences of my lifetime. The highlight for me was when they popped open a life raft and I got to see what was actually inside that fiberglass box on my deck.

Fair winds and following seas.


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## RainDog

Of all the thread hijacking I have seen over the years, arguing about the US healthcare system in a global cruising budget thread might be the lamest.


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## outbound

Wife wants to do northern med coast and turkey. Hear nothing but horror stories about Med. so less encouraged. But maybe people only tell you those like Smack's BFS thread. In terms of budget would definitely break the 3k/m budget. Similarly scared of Atlantic coast of France. Personally be happy with US east coast, Caribe then S. Pacific ending in Thailand. We'll see. Its all just talk now. Still, saving and stressing to get me and boat up to speed for it.


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## tdw

The original ObamaCare rant has been deleted. I'm sorry if that offends Outbound but it is not on to be posting a political rant in an On Topic thread. Other folk will respond and then it all goes off the rails.


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## outbound

Think that's a great idea. Not offended at all. Sorry about it. Just flipped and ranted. My bad and my apologies to all.


----------



## tdw

To the subject at hand .... I'm enjoying both of the budget threads. Ok so this one is closest to the Wombat truth but the other too has its merits. 

For Australians of course, as Mark noted, things have taken a turn fo rthe worse and we now need to find AUD1.20 for each USD but such it is. A bugger but to be expected I guess. 

For us I fully expect that $3000 is probably close to the money. Our base plan is to spend a couple of weeks in relative isolation then a few days close to civilisation. We do like eating out but that is hard to budget for as we as much enjoy inexpensive Asian as we do anything else but then we also enjoy lots of anything else as well as inexpensive Asian. Pubs in Australian offer good food which with a nice bottle of wine and a couple of pre dinner drinks will set you back around AUD100-120 for two. Local Asian half that, fine dining double it and more. 

On board we still eat pretty well. Yes there is a bit of Tofu and rice but that is because we happen to enjoy Tofu and rice. Most dinners would be meat, fish or poultry. Depending on season salad or vegetables, maybe pasta. We almost always have a bottle of wine with dinner, couple of pre dinner drinks and if it is turning into a late boozy old evening then we'll make a dent in a bottle of whiskey. 

At this stage of the game we don't expect to cruise Europe though charter is not out of the question. Outbound .... when you say scared of parts of Europe is that scared of the weather or scared of the budget getting shredded ? I can understand both aspects but yes many parts of Europe can be very expensive when it comes to eating out though not so much for groceries and wine. Marina fees very high and in many places say, Iberia to Italy anchoring is not really an option in developed ports. New Shengen rules have upped marina fees in many previously cheap areas just outside the Shengen borders. I believe though that Western Med is still relatively inexpensive. 

South Pacific and S.E Asia still the best place to be if you want to save your pennies.


----------



## outbound

Right now being a newbie I'm scared of everything. :laugher. But fortunately the dream burns bright. I love the Azores. Was there on a research project and just want to go back. My limited understanding is the Med can be a dangerous piece of water to both your boat and budget. I have my brother in law living in Thailand and would like to visit. Best friend spends two months a year in Italy so it was also on the list. Had a few drinks with a cruiser who did north shore of Med. on a Bristol 54. Told me the mechanics and expense were a shock. Fees, preplanning and sailing were all difficult compared with his experience here and Caribe. Another on a Morris 46 also had a difficult time gong to Ireland/Baltic. Expenses were much greater than expected and difficult weather.Paulo may speak to this and maybe it why the French and other Europeans so dominant the blue water races now. Hate to say butttt... given how few of us there are in the big picture of things and how many good ports we have we are blessed. Even the east coast compared to the west ( except for the northwest) is easy to cruise.


----------



## RainDog

I have always planned on spending half my time in the very "affordable" places. That keeps the costs down for the rest of the year. I could very happily live in Honduras, Malaysia, etc. for <$10 day for the two of us for all our food and drink, including as many restaurants ashore as we want. Assuming we were mostly anchored out, that would bank some money to spend the other half of the year in more expensive places. 

Last time I was in Argentina, you could get two great steaks and a bottle of nice wine for < $10 in nice Buenos Aires restaurant. I wonder if it is still like that. It was for sure the travel deal of the century not too long ago.


----------



## Don L

RainDog said:


> I could very happily live in Honduras, Malaysia, etc. for <$10 day for the two of us for all our food and drink, including as many restaurants ashore as we want.


Have you researched this recently? I was reading one of the "affordable" places to retire to articles the other day and a lot of the places we used to think of as being less expensive aren't anymore. And if anything the ones along a coast will price increase the fastest and the anchorages will increasingly be far from town.

A fairly given thing is that places where cruisers/boats like to go because the harbor is good will over time become more expensive as development happens.

I think you just have to be sure you have a good marina budget and plan to stay there a month or so (other than a 1 day stop) to get a good rate.


----------



## outbound

RD- ?How did you get there? Was going south along the coast of Brazil difficult?


----------



## RainDog

Don0190 said:


> Have you researched this recently?


Noonsite says Honduras anchorages are still free. One of the keys to living cheap in the "developing" world is to avoid the popular places and get familiar with some small, less popular places. Another is to eat like the locals.

I am sure you can have a $30 meal no problem in the Bay Islands. You can also get Baleadas from a street vendor for $.50. In Panang you can eat a $100 seafood meal at any of a number of places, but there are also hundreds of places you can get one of the greatest meals of you life for <$1.50. Locals need to eat, and they are poor, so if you eat like them.... I realize this would not be to everyones liking, but I could eat Baleadas every day quite happily and Malaysian or Thai street food every meal for the rest of my life with glee.

I have not been to Honduras in a number of years, but looking online it looks like prices are much the same. I have been to Malasia and Vietnam recently, and you can still eat like a king there for $5/day per person.


----------



## RainDog

outbound said:


> RD- ?How did you get there? Was going south along the coast of Brazil difficult?


I got there by Airplane  Never been there (or anywhere outside the US) by boat. I doubt I would go there by boat either. Too cold for my tastes. I do have a friend who goes back and forth along that coast pretty regularly and he doesn't mind it. I did spend a week cruising on a boat down there, and it was super cool. I just took the fast route down and back.


----------



## aeventyr60

tdw said:


> To the subject at hand .... I'm enjoying both of the budget threads. Ok so this one is closest to the Wombat truth but the other too has its merits.
> 
> For Australians of course, as Mark noted, things have taken a turn fo rthe worse and we now need to find AUD1.20 for each USD but such it is. A bugger but to be expected I guess.
> 
> For us I fully expect that $3000 is probably close to the money. Our base plan is to spend a couple of weeks in relative isolation then a few days close to civilisation. We do like eating out but that is hard to budget for as we as much enjoy inexpensive Asian as we do anything else but then we also enjoy lots of anything else as well as inexpensive Asian. Pubs in Australian offer good food which with a nice bottle of wine and a couple of pre dinner drinks will set you back around AUD100-120 for two. Local Asian half that, fine dining double it and more.
> 
> On board we still eat pretty well. Yes there is a bit of Tofu and rice but that is because we happen to enjoy Tofu and rice. Most dinners would be meat, fish or poultry. Depending on season salad or vegetables, maybe pasta. We almost always have a bottle of wine with dinner, couple of pre dinner drinks and if it is turning into a late boozy old evening then we'll make a dent in a bottle of whiskey.
> 
> At this stage of the game we don't expect to cruise Europe though charter is not out of the question. Outbound .... when you say scared of parts of Europe is that scared of the weather or scared of the budget getting shredded ? I can understand both aspects but yes many parts of Europe can be very expensive when it comes to eating out though not so much for groceries and wine. Marina fees very high and in many places say, Iberia to Italy anchoring is not really an option in developed ports. New Shengen rules have upped marina fees in many previously cheap areas just outside the Shengen borders. I believe though that Western Med is still relatively inexpensive.
> 
> South Pacific and S.E Asia still the best place to be if you want to save your pennies.


The AUD getting a haircut has really crimped your mate's style. Now instead of drinking a dozen cans at the bar they only have ten, and blame it all on the yanks!

You'll do fine here TDW, and then you can afford to ship your boat to Turkey as the misses won't be having anything to do with the Indian Ocean....


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## tdw

aeventyr60 said:


> The AUD getting a haircut has really crimped your mate's style. Now instead of drinking a dozen cans at the bar they only have ten, and blame it all on the yanks!
> 
> You'll do fine here TDW, and then you can afford to ship your boat to Turkey as the misses won't be having anything to do with the Indian Ocean....


Well we all know its all the fault of the Septics.

Me would definitely do fine in your neck of the woods mate though its not just the missus who'd like to avoid the Indian. North or South.


----------



## Minnewaska

tdw said:


> Well we all know its all the fault of the Septics........


Don't blame us.

While we grouse about dependence on China, only 10% of our exports are dependent on the health of their economy. China is actually far more dependent on the US. The manufacturing they sell to us is far greater than their entire trade surplus! On the other hand, Australia's export dependence on China is over 30% and many say is on the brink as China will own your economy. Do you Ockers have a pejorative term for the Chinese? 

Oh yea, welcome to the club of exporting coal to the Chinese and then complaining about what they do to the environment with it. The Yanks and Aussies just aren't all that different, other than you guys butchered the language.


----------



## Don L

This thread is becoming like a Mexican shark fisherman, it just drifts.


----------



## outbound

Hate engine noise. It's ok by me if it drifts for a while as long as we get there.


----------



## tdw

outbound said:


> Hate engine noise. It's ok by me if it drifts for a while as long as we get there.


That's why god gave us Yanmar. 

Seriously though, mostly I have to agree but becalmed in a swell is effing purgatory. Then I'd put up with an old Volvo but give praise for our Yanmar.

Minne .... the Septics jibe was a joke though you are dead on the money when it comes to the hypocrisy of exporting coal. Nonetheless any nation that spells lose with two ohs cannot give us a hard time. I mean fair suck of the sauce bottle cobber .


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## Minnewaska

tdw said:


> ......Minne .... the Septics jibe was a joke.....


Of course it was. As was mine, noted by the ubiquitous smilies. Can't dish it out and not take it.

She'll be apples, mate. (whatever the hell that means)


----------



## Don L

tdw said:


> I mean fair suck of the sauce bottle cobber .


I had to Google it into my Aussies speak translator. And in case others are in the same position:

fair suck of the sauce bottle

(Australia, colloquial, informal) Used to protest against unreasonableness, such as somebody taking more than their share.  [quotations ▼]
Synonyms[edit]
fair crack of the whip!
fair go!
fair shake of the sauce bottle!
fair suck of the sav!


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## RainDog

Don0190 said:


> I had to Google it into my Aussies speak translator.


I am still trying to figure out what word he means by "lose", and even more so, how I could possibly formulate that as a question.

"When you say lose do you mean lose or loose? If you mean lose then how do you say loose? If you mean loose, how is your lose?"

Clear as mud.


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## Group9

Don0190 said:


> I had to Google it into my Aussies speak translator. And in case others are in the same position:
> 
> fair suck of the sauce bottle
> 
> (Australia, colloquial, informal) Used to protest against unreasonableness, such as somebody taking more than their share.  [quotations ▼]
> Synonyms[edit]
> fair crack of the whip!
> fair go!
> fair shake of the sauce bottle!
> fair suck of the sav!


All I know is that a sheila is a girl (I think).


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## tdw

RainDog said:


> I am still trying to figure out what word he means by "lose", and even more so, how I could possibly formulate that as a question.
> 
> "When you say lose do you mean lose or loose? If you mean lose then how do you say loose? If you mean loose, how is your lose?"
> 
> Clear as mud.


I've noticed that many Americans spell 'lose' as in not to win as 'loose' which to me means not tight. To an Anglo English speaker (of sorts) that really jars.

Otoh ... Australians probably should not be throwing stones. Oz english btw is known as Strine. The country of course is known as Straya or if you prefer Girt.

Thanks for the reply Minne. Sometimes the anti American jibes are taken seriously when in most cases it is just joshing.


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## tdw

Whoa ... sorry but this must stop. My apologies to Don for the hijack.


----------



## RainDog

tdw said:


> I've noticed that many Americans spell 'lose' as in not to win as 'loose' which to me means no tight. To an Anglo English speaker (of sorts) that really jars.


To an American that really jars too. That just means they can't spell, since they are always different words in American english too.


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## tdw

RainDog said:


> To an American that really jars too. That just means they can't spell, since they are always different words in American english too.


That is good to hear. Maybe there is hope for you lot after all.


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## Don L

tdw said:


> I've noticed that many Americans spell 'lose' as in not to win as 'loose' which to me means no tight..


I can drift some with it.

The Americans you are referring to to are special and what they are doing is referring to their self as being a loose loser. These are the one's trying to cruise on $200/mo plus a welfare check with their best "special" friend who is also their first cousin and the smarter one, having made it though the sixth grade.

I hope I have cleared up it mate. (did I do that right?)

BTW - what's the expected cost of a causal type dinner for 2 in Oz in a cruiser hangout?


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## tdw

Don0190 said:


> I can drift some with it.
> 
> The Americans you are referring to to are special and what they are doing is referring to their self as being a loose loser. These are the one's trying to cruise on $200/mo plus a welfare check with their best "special" friend who is also their first cousin and the smarter one, having made it though the sixth grade.
> 
> I hope I have cleared up it mate. (did I do that right?)
> 
> BTW - what's the expected cost of a causal type dinner for 2 in Oz in a cruiser hangout?


Hard to quantify that. For example we ate Korean last evening and that was AUD50 before tip and alcohol. Previous evening at a local pub including drinks came to just over AUD100 half of which was booze but we only had one starter. Otoh, lunch last month for the Wombet's birthday was AUD500 but that was very much out of the ordinary .... thankfully.


----------



## Group9

Go watch one of those restaurant rehab shows. They all say that the ingredients in a restaurant meal shouldn't cost more than 1/3 of the price charged for it. And, that doesn't even include the tip.

In other words, take the best restaurant meal you ever had, and know you should have been able to cook it yourself for 1/3 of what you paid.

Anybody here who drinks wine knows what the markup on that is at a restaurant. It can be anywhere from 200 to 500 per cent mark up. Does it taste better when you pay that much more for it?

Buying it yourself and making your meal on your boat, instead of eating out at the Tiki bar, doesn't mean you're a bum.

Neither does finding a place you can drop the hook instead of staying at a marina or on a mooring.

Knowing what I know now, I plan on spending a lot less on my next cruise.


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## Don L

Was there a point other that it costs more to eat/drink out than it does at home/boat? I believe everyone knows this it should be included as a separate thing in you budget.


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## Group9

Don0190 said:


> Was there a point other that it costs more to eat/drink out than it does at home/boat? I believe everyone knows this it should be included as a separate thing in you budget.


Everyone? You sure about that?


----------



## Don L

Group9 said:


> Everyone? You sure about that?


You are right I can not be 100% sure. There probably is someone who believes it is cheaper to eat out than cook in. In which case they HAVE to dine out to stay on budget.

In fact I'm 99% positive that eating out can be less expense:

It occurred to me the other day that if you eat out at McDonald's off the $1 menu and drank a glass of V8 juice that you could get all your daily needs for about $4. Which seems like a better deal than what some of the cheap cruisers eat for the same budget.


----------



## Minnewaska

Yes, a restaurant costs more. I'm certain more people understand that than they understand the systems they have aboard. 

I'm a pretty good cook, but not everything is going to be possible, at least not practical, to replicate aboard. I had a lamb shank with a red wine veal demi glace the other night. Are you going to make a demi aboard? It's just a different experience.

I'm also a big fan of the concept of a Public House (ie pub). Its more than a place to nourish, its a place for social interaction. Our favorite spot is an American Bistro, whose long bar is along the entire side of the restaurant and the dining tables are essentially in the same room. It's energetic, top notch food, we always know someone there. The entire staff knows us as well. Its an American public house with 5 star food. That can't be replicated aboard.


----------



## Don L

Don0190 said:


> My planned $3000/mo budget for 2 people breaks down to:
> food - $1200
> boat (mooring, maintenance, insurance) - $1000
> eating out & entertainment - $500
> phone - $100
> misc - $200


So we drifted off the thread and I had my part in it (except for the eating at McDonald's because that was genius talking).

The topic is the above budget for a long term cruiser (talking years) going from place to to place. Some of those months will be higher and some lower, but the location gets taken into account and you vary the time in each to make it work. The $3000/mo is in today's money and you have to be aware of inflation, you either have to spend less each year or have income increase to maintain.

If this budget seems wrong to you (high or low), why and what would you change?


----------



## Group9

Minnewaska said:


> Yes, a restaurant costs more. I'm certain more people understand that than they understand the systems they have aboard.
> 
> I'm a pretty good cook, but not everything is going to be possible, at least not practical, to replicate aboard. I had a lamb shank with a red wine veal demi glace the other night. Are you going to make a demi aboard? It's just a different experience.
> 
> I'm also a big fan of the concept of a Public House (ie pub). Its more than a place to nourish, its a place for social interaction. Our favorite spot is an American Bistro, whose long bar is along the entire side of the restaurant and the dining tables are essentially in the same room. It's energetic, top notch food, we always know someone there. The entire staff knows us as well. Its an American public house with 5 star food. That can't be replicated aboard.


You're right. You're definitely not ever going to make it on $500 a month.


----------



## Minnewaska

Group9 said:


> You're right. You're definitely not ever going to make it on $500 a month.


I hope not. It's far from my plan.


----------



## RainDog

Don0190 said:


> You are right I can not be 100% sure. There probably is someone who believes it is cheaper to eat out than cook in. In which case they HAVE to dine out to stay on budget.


I will be that person.

In some places, the locals eat all their meals out (for example: Penang, Malaysia) because it is cheaper than cooking at home (cook at home for special occasions). In India you can get a Thali for $.50. No way you could cook that at home for that price.

Again, in some places, if you eat like the locals, eating out is cheap.


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

Minnewaska said:


> .
> 
> I'm also a big fan of the concept of a Public House (ie pub). Its more than a place to nourish, its a place for social interaction.


Yep, those sort of places are great. Restaurants are fine if you have already got friends, but not if you've just lobbed in.


----------



## Group9

Minnewaska said:


> I hope not. It's far from my plan.


I'm glad for you.

I should show you the list of things that have happened to me in my life that were far from my plan.


----------



## Minnewaska

Group9 said:


> ......I should show you the list of things that have happened to me in my life that were far from my plan.


I've got one too. Cruising kitty isn't nearly the most important thing in life.


----------



## aeventyr60

tdw said:


> Hard to quantify that. For example we ate Korean last evening and that was AUD50 before tip and alcohol. Previous evening at a local pub including drinks came to just over AUD100 half of which was booze but we only had one starter. Otoh, lunch last month for the Wombet's birthday was AUD500 but that was very much out of the ordinary .... thankfully.


Burger at the Darwin Yacht club was 25 bucks, mate.


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## Don L

aeventyr60 said:


> Burger at the Darwin Yacht club was 25 bucks, mate.


Now there is something I never would have probably learned. Even the chance of walking by the outside of a Yacht Club and reading a menu outside would be a reach on my budget. I'm pretty sure that in some long lost language that Yacht Club means "to suck money out well dressed boaters pockets" and was developed as a high end choice for those that would normally go to a pub.


----------



## aeventyr60

Don0190 said:


> Now there is something I never would have probably learned. Even the chance of walking by the outside of a Yacht Club and reading a menu outside would be a reach on my budget. I'm pretty sure that in some long lost language that Yacht Club means "to suck money out well dressed boaters pockets" and was developed as a high end choice for those that would normally go to a pub.


Well, you just need to get out a bit more. A far better burger is available a the Phucket Cruising Yacht Club with fries for 4 bucks. Cruising yachties from all over the globe seem to manage at least one and a few $1.45 Singha Beers.

The owners wife threw a B day party 2 nights ago with free food for all. Talk about a good time. Still recovering from the fun and fellowship with sailiors from all over the world on all types of budgets. The smallest boat and the guy with the biggest heart and the most friends and the loveliest gal was on a vancouver 27.

Make sure you explore the little, tiny yacht clubs catering to the cruisers who ply the worlds water, you'll never ever meet a more generous and sincere group of folks.


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## Minnewaska

Don0190 said:


> .....in some long lost language that Yacht Club means "to suck money out well dressed boaters pockets"......


I heard it meant, place to get drunk where no one you will pick on you for having become successful.

I don't belong to one, but I often feel I need to be apologetic that I'm the first in my family to graduate from college, worked hard and can afford a few nice things now. My year end bonus had a full 50% deducted for taxes, but I'm told I don't pay enough. I totally get why private clubs exist.


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## Don L

Minnewaska said:


> I heard it meant, place to get drunk where no one you will pick on you for having become successful.
> 
> I don't belong to one, but I often feel I need to be apologetic that I'm the first in my family to graduate from college, worked hard and can afford a few nice things now. My year end bonus had a full 50% deducted for taxes, but I'm told I don't pay enough. I totally get why private clubs exist.


I understand and get the same feeling on some of the other threads. But I've never been to a Yacht Club in my 6 years of sailing (I've never even stayed in a slip) so can not really judge. My wife and I have decided that we are OK with being white trash with money and even though we used to go to fancy places 25 years ago when younger now prefer places like brew pubs.

I would think that doing Yacht Clubs would make it pretty challenging to cruise on $3000/mo for long.


----------



## -OvO-

Yacht Clubs and "gentlemen's clubs" used to provide valuable opportunities for the brasher youth of the gentry to learn about comportment, decorum, and noblesse oblige. Meaning, at the least, that it was considered unbecoming to bemoan the burdens of one's good fortune. Regrettably, American culture has been so broadened by the mass popular media, that too many young riches nouveau and ancienne are only distinguishable from the common lout by the scale of their coarseness, but not its character.


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## outbound

Was a yacht club member for twenty years.
Cheap launch service.
Acted as buyers club so cheaper supplies and services like winter sticks done right and for a good price.
Got reciprocality when cruising.
Had a great sailing program.in fact produced some girls who won the Olympics .
Easy to pick up crew.
Fun to race against boats you knew.
Now have owners of sisterships for advice and companionship scattered all over and slip mates. Serve the same kind of functions.
Guess I'm a lout. Can't stand pretentiousness. Didn't see much at our pretty down to earth yacht club.


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## MikeOReilly

I know I'm not supposed to post here b/c I'm one of the unwashed masses, but I just wanted to say not all yacht clubs are created equal. I have belonged to two so far. No sailor whites and no $12 burgers. But you can use the club BBQ if you bring your own propane, and if you want your boat hauled and mast taken down, then you better pitch in and help your neighbour do the same, b/c that's the only way things get done, no matter how "successful" one is.

We have millionaires, we have people on social assistance, and we have plenty of folks in between. We work together, and we play together. Incredible, eh?


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## outbound

Mike. +1 on your post. Had opportunity to join yacht club in town I was living in or town I work in. Snots v. Sailors. Many clubs are sailors and we are all equal before the sea.


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## Don L

I think of the "all members help or do volunteer work at the club" as Boat Clubs. Most (there are always exceptions) Yacht Clubs have full restaurants and facilities and Boat Clubs have a patio (with a tent over it at the nicer ones) with a gas grill that you can use and a couple of showers. Yacht Clubs have paid staff workers and Boat Clubs have members doing those things mostly

May come down to whether you think of your boat as a "yacht" or a "boat".

There is a place for both and I don't have anything against "yachties".


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## Minnewaska

-OvO- said:


> ....opportunities for the brasher youth of the gentry to learn about comportment, decorum, and noblesse oblige......


Good approach in the days of the Rockefellers and Vanderbilts, when their fortunes were made at the cost of human lives to build their oil wells and rail roads. Make no mistake that their noble oblige was as much a pay off.

I sit on three charitable boards, because I choose to. Not because I feel the need to provide recompense for what I've done to anyone.


----------



## -OvO-

I might put it another way: it don't take money to have class.


----------



## Sal Paradise

MikeOReilly said:


> I know I'm not supposed to post here b/c I'm one of the unwashed masses, but I just wanted to say not all yacht clubs are created equal.


I just hate it when those people from the $500 per month thread come over here.It just ruins the whole atmosphere.


----------



## Don L

I guess it's OK for the unwashed to come over (we would prefer a clean up first). But after all:

We got winners, we got losers
Chain smokers and boozers
And we got yuppies, we got bikers
We got thirsty hitchhikers
And the girls next boat over dress up like movie stars

Hmm, hmm, hmm I love this yacht club

We got cowboys, we got truckers
Broken-hearted fools and suckers
And we got hustlers, we got fighters
Early birds and all-nighters
And the veterans talk about their battle scars

Hmm, hmm, hmm I love this club


----------



## hpeer

MikeOReilly said:


> I know I'm not supposed to post here b/c I'm one of the unwashed masses, but I just wanted to say not all yacht clubs are created equal. I have belonged to two so far. No sailor whites and no $12 burgers. But you can use the club BBQ if you bring your own propane, and if you want your boat hauled and mast taken down, then you better pitch in and help your neighbour do the same, b/c that's the only way things get done, no matter how "successful" one is.
> 
> We have millionaires, we have people on social assistance, and we have plenty of folks in between. We work together, and we play together. Incredible, eh?


Mike,

If you make it to Newfoundland check out the Lewisporte Yacht Club. You'll feel right at home. Great place. Good to leave boat over winter.


----------



## MikeOReilly

hpeer said:


> If you make it to Newfoundland check out the Lewisporte Yacht Club. You'll feel right at home. Great place. Good to leave boat over winter.


Thanks Hpeer. It looks like a great place. I've got a few question for you, but I'll PM them. Don't want to intrude on the erudite discourse of my financial betters .


----------



## RainDog

-OvO- said:


> I might put it another way: it don't take money to have class.


Judging by 99% of the multi-million dollar houses on the lake I sail on, money is certainly no guarantee of taste either. I had to sail 30 miles up the lake to find the first attractive house.


----------



## tdw

aeventyr60 said:


> Burger at the Darwin Yacht club was 25 bucks, mate.


Even for Sydney that is one expensive burger. Hope it was one splendid lump of minced cow.


----------



## Group9

Minnewaska said:


> I heard it meant, place to get drunk where no one you will pick on you for having become successful.
> 
> I don't belong to one, but I often feel I need to be apologetic that I'm the first in my family to graduate from college, worked hard and can afford a few nice things now. My year end bonus had a full 50% deducted for taxes, but I'm told I don't pay enough. I totally get why private clubs exist.


I was in one here (one of the oldest clubs in the nation) for several years before I got out.

I began to notice a smaller and smaller percentage of members who actually had a boat, or cared anything about boating. The growing sentiment seemed to be that if they just get rid of all of the boaters and boating facilities, the "yacht" club would be a lot better off.


----------



## jerryrlitton

travlineasy said:


> [/URL][/IMG]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There were a lot of days when I had fresh-grilled hot dogs for lunch. Hot dogs are dirt cheap, and really tasted great with chopped Vidalia onion, sweet pickled relish, a slice of American cheese wrapped around it and some yellow mustard. Hotdog rolls were always on sale at the grocery store. I also used the hotdog rolls for Italian sausage lunches as well.
> 
> l:




















Travelinez:
Sometimes the simplest food tastes the best after a long day on the water. Enjoyed a few hot dogs at a remote anchorage in Thailand tonight. After all the fresh fruit, veggies and hot local thai food, a good ol hot dog with yellow mustard, heinz relish, onions and jalapeno pepper's sure hit the spot. Tomorrow it will be back to fresh fish and locally grown veggies...


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## hellosailor

Hot dogs, sausage, wursts, are a wide concept. Very wide price range depending on what is in them on how many health recalls the source has had. 

Eating out because you can't cook at home is also not what it might seem. In many places, including India, people can't afford to buy FUEL for their primitive cookers, it isn't like the urban Old World or New where all you do is turn the knob and pay by the unit.

Ditto for yacht clubs. In the US many of them have a restaurant as a split convenience or accommodation, and the members are required to spend xx dollars per month in the restaurant, in order to help ensure it makes enough money to keep it running. Others charge stiff rates to keep out the riffraff, while a few actually just run it along with the bar as a convenience to the members, at a reasonable price.

So what is "expensive" depends a great deal on where you are and local circumstances. I'm told that in ancient Rome, plain citizens weren't allowed to cook at home--weren't allowed to, even if they could afford to. And that when "Nero fiddled while Rome burned' it may very well have been traced back to a cooking fire. We'd save a lot of lives and property in the US by banning domestic "flame" cooking devices, too. (G)


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## Group9

First cruise I came back from (back in the 80s) we tore over to Pizza Hut, the second we had the lines tied off (before we even checked in with Customs).


----------



## fryewe

hellosailor said:


> We'd save a lot of lives and property in the US by banning domestic "flame" cooking devices, too. (G)


The body count due to the Saturday and Sunday afternoon Tailgate Riots in parking lots of football stadia across the fruited plain would offset any reduction in losses in other places...


----------



## aeventyr60

fryewe said:


> The body count due to the Saturday and Sunday afternoon Tailgate Riots in parking lots of football stadia across the fruited plain would offset any reduction in losses in other places...


Population control methods at it's finest. Now just open those stadiums for gladiatorial combat for the unwashed masses.


----------



## Don L

Don0190 said:


> My planned $3000/mo budget for 2 people breaks down to:
> food - $1200
> boat (mooring, maintenance, insurance) - $1000
> eating out & entertainment - $500
> phone - $100
> misc - $200


Seems nothing kills a thread faster than a couple of really off topic posts. So getting back to the topic as I believe there are still things to be learned, the above is the budget under consideration.

If your budget is, or is planned to be, more or less what numbers get changed to make it happen?

I've been clicking around on the internet more and keep finding cruisers with blogs that post years of their real numbers. I'm starting to believe this averages out to something between $2500-4000/mo. The $2500/mo seems to hold true till some larger boat work happens and then there will be a few months of $4000-5000, followed by some months of $1500-2000 where they try to recover some.

I think the lowest average I have come across on a blog from a real cruiser (as opposed to someone just living on their boat) has been about $1500/mo. But to be honest if I had to do the life they describe in their blog I would give it up and go back to work or something.

I also haven't found much far as real life examples of people cruising the way claimed on some of the "cruising on the cheap" threads (to lots of people THIS is a cruising on the cheap thread). Either it isn't possible or is so crappy that they quit. I thought maybe it was due to "they wouldn't have computers and internet" but based on how many will post about doing it on threads that doesn't appear to be true.


----------



## xort

Don...+1

You pretty well nailed it.


----------



## CLOSECALL

I think that a cruising budget would generally reflect one's regular lifestyle's budget.


----------



## Group9

CLOSECALL said:


> I think that a cruising budget would generally reflect one's regular lifestyle's budget.


Yep. Pretty much, I imagine. Mine did.


----------



## Cruisingdad

Don0190 said:


> Seems nothing kills a thread faster than a couple of really off topic posts. So getting back to the topic as I believe there are still things to be learned, the above is the budget under consideration.
> 
> If your budget is, or is planned to be, more or less what numbers get changed to make it happen?
> 
> I've been clicking around on the internet more and keep finding cruisers with blogs that post years of their real numbers. I'm starting to believe this averages out to something between $2500-4000/mo. The $2500/mo seems to hold true till some larger boat work happens and then there will be a few months of $4000-5000, followed by some months of $1500-2000 where they try to recover some.
> 
> I think the lowest average I have come across on a blog from a real cruiser (as opposed to someone just living on their boat) has been about $1500/mo. But to be honest if I had to do the life they describe in their blog I would give it up and go back to work or something.
> 
> I also haven't found much far as real life examples of people cruising the way claimed on some of the "cruising on the cheap" threads (to lots of people THIS is a cruising on the cheap thread). Either it isn't possible or is so crappy that they quit. I thought maybe it was due to "they wouldn't have computers and internet" but based on how many will post about doing it on threads that doesn't appear to be true.


I spend about 1200 now on food for me and wife and kids. That generally includes beer and wine but not alcohol. Alcohol reduces the beer and wine budget. We do not eat out much at all. In essence, i think your food budget is too high for two adults.

However, your maintenance, mooring and insurance budget is wayyyyy too low. A slip in Marathon in season is a cool 1000 by itself, per month on a 40' boat. Key West is 2000/month plus about 240 in electric. Aren't going to stay a month? No prob, but then you are dumping a cool 150/night and in 7 marina stops/month you just hit 1k again.

My insurance is 250/month and i have very cheap insurance because i am grandfathered in. Those with less experience and equally priced boats might double that. If you go to the carrib, you will likely double that (my rate did).

My maintenance is anywhere from 40-500/month. My generator parts are very expensive and I shudder every time something breaks. I do ALL of my own work for many reasons, money being one of them but not the biggest.

In all fairness, most places north of here get less expensive, but places south and east get more expensive.

For those cruising on 500/month, i have no idea how. The numbers dont add up to me... On this coast. Prices are cheaper in the pnw, as i shared, but that is not a place i enjoyed outside of summer. But just my food, FOOD!, is nearly three times that. Add in alcohol and it is 3 times that. My maintenance could easily hit 500 on some months, and possibly more on a really bad month. For example, my tach went out and a new one is just over 250. My macerator went out last week and that was 200. My head treatment is 40/month by itself. So if nothing else goes wrong this month, i am at 500 with me doing everything myself. Balance in a air conditioner failure or major equipment failure and those numbers go out the door to many thousands. And, those things WILL go out with 24/7 use.


----------



## guitarguy56

Cruisingdad said:


> I spend about 1200 now on food for me and wife and kids. That generally includes beer and wine but not alcohol. Alcohol reduces the beer and wine budget. We do not eat out much at all. In essence, i think your food budget is too high for two adults.
> 
> However, your maintenance, mooring and insurance budget is wayyyyy too low. A slip in Marathon in season is a cool 1000 by itself, per month on a 40' boat. Key West is 2000/month plus about 240 in electric. Aren't going to stay a month? No prob, but then you are dumping a cool 150/night and in 7 marina stops/month you just hit 1k again.
> 
> My insurance is 250/month and i have very cheap insurance because i am grandfathered in. Those with less experience and equally priced boats might double that. If you go to the carrib, you will likely double that (my rate did).
> 
> My maintenance is anywhere from 40-500/month. My generator parts are very expensive and I shudder every time something breaks. I do ALL of my own work for many reasons, money being one of them but not the biggest.
> 
> In all fairness, most places north of here get less expensive, but places south and east get more expensive.
> 
> For those cruising on 500/month, i have no idea how. The numbers dont add up to me... On this coast. Prices are cheaper in the pnw, as i shared, but that is not a place i enjoyed outside of summer. But just my food, FOOD!, is nearly three times that. Add in alcohol and it is 3 times that. My maintenance could easily hit 500 on some months, and possibly more on a really bad month. For example, my tach went out and a new one is just over 250. My macerator went out last week and that was 200. My head treatment is 40/month by itself. So if nothing else goes wrong this month, i am at 500 with me doing everything myself. Balance in a air conditioner failure or major equipment failure and those numbers go out the door to many thousands. And, those things WILL go out with 24/7 use.


So CD... if you tallied up your costs for one month say in Key West or Key Biscayne... are you in the $4500-5000 a month club (more costs in the Caribbean) more or less and reduces as you come back up the east coast?

I'm curious as that is what my wife and I would like to do albeit on a smaller craft (32-35 ft), your numbers seem more realistic than some others here and I trust it as you've _cruised_ it already.


----------



## MikeOReilly

Group9 said:


> CLOSECALL said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think that a cruising budget would generally reflect one's regular lifestyle's budget.
> 
> 
> 
> Yep. Pretty much, I imagine. Mine did.
Click to expand...

This is why these threads rarely result in good answers. There is no general answer b/c it depends on each person's lifestyle, their boat, their choices, and what they consider needs vs wants.

It's the same as asking how much it costs to live on land -- it depends. It depends on where you live, the kind of house you have, your lifestyle choices, what your needs are, etc.

To answer the "how much does it cost" question I think you need to specify the general boat size, the location you're cruising in, the size of crew, their lifestyle needs, and likely a bunch more parameters I'm not thinking of right now. To borrow from fine literature, you need to know the ultimate question before you can understand the ultimate answer.


----------



## xort

Are we talking livaboard...at the dock...or cruising?
Brian, first thing you mentioned is marina fees. Most of us out cruising spend little time at marinas. Less than 15 days per year is quite easy most of the time for most of us. Mostly.


----------



## Group9

MikeOReilly said:


> This is why these threads rarely result in good answers. There is no general answer b/c it depends on each person's lifestyle, their boat, their choices, and what they consider needs vs wants.
> 
> It's the same as asking how much it costs to live on land -- it depends. It depends on where you live, the kind of house you have, your lifestyle choices, what your needs are, etc.
> 
> To answer the "how much does it cost" question I think you need to specify the general boat size, the location you're cruising in, the size of crew, their lifestyle needs, and likely a bunch more parameters I'm not thinking of right now. To borrow from fine literature, you need to know the ultimate question before you can understand the ultimate answer.


And, on my cruise, I saw people living on a lot less than I was spending, and people who were living on a lot more. On the same size boats, and in the same places.

It's a fact of life. Some people just spend more than others.


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## Don L

In the last 6 years I've NEVER stayed at a slip. There are $55/night mooring balls up here that already cuts into the beer budget too much.

But I believe last I looked it up that moorings were around $300/mo in Key West.


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## Group9

Another point is listening to someone talk about how much air conditioning, or a macerator, can costs to repair, like every sailboat out there has air conditioning and electric heads. 

I have a friend who could point out how much it cost to keep his two jet skis running when he was cruising and how it would be a disaster if someone didn't budget those kinds of repairs into their cruising budget.


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## Don L

Group9 said:


> I have a friend who could point out how much it cost to keep his two jet skis running


hate the rich a-holes that rub it in our faces when we have to take turns or share rides on ours


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## Cruisingdad

guitarguy56 said:


> So CD... if you tallied up your costs for one month say in Key West or Key Biscayne... are you in the $4500-5000 a month club (more costs in the Caribbean) more or less and reduces as you come back up the east coast?
> 
> I'm curious as that is what my wife and I would like to do albeit on a smaller craft (32-35 ft), your numbers seem more realistic than some others here and I trust it as you've _cruised_ it already.


Hehe, well, just so you know, the last time we were in KW we spent about 2500 in a week between slip, gifts, bars and food. That was quite the exception though. Key West is also exceptionally high. A cheaper way out is the mooring field, but it has to be the worst mooring field anywhere. It is completely open to the north and a long, wet ride to the dinghy dock. I think they also hit you for some ridiculous $$ for tying up to the dinghy dock too. Basically, the ball was not something I would plan on spending much time at there.

Marathon mooring field, however, is fabulous. I am typing from here now. Completely protected on all sides and the balls are maintained very well. That runs about 350ish/month and includes dinghy dock and 1 pumpout a week where the come to your boat. If you choose a marina here, it runs as low as $19.75/ft up to 22.50/ft. Food is more expensive down here too as is gas and pretty much everything else. But we love it here.


----------



## guitarguy56

Cruisingdad said:


> Hehe, well, just so you know, the last time we were in KW we spent about 2500 in a week between slip, gifts, bars and food. That was quite the exception though. Key West is also exceptionally high. A cheaper way out is the mooring field, but it has to be the worst mooring field anywhere. It is completely open to the north and a long, wet ride to the dinghy dock. I think they also hit you for some ridiculous $$ for tying up to the dinghy dock too. Basically, the ball was not something I would plan on spending much time at there.
> 
> Marathon mooring field, however, is fabulous. I am typing from here now. Completely protected on all sides and the balls are maintained very well. That runs about 350ish/month and includes dinghy dock and 1 pumpout a week where the come to your boat. If you choose a marina here, it runs as low as $19.75/ft up to 22.50/ft. Food is more expensive down here too as is gas and pretty much everything else. But we love it here.


Thanks CD... I seen the fees for Key West moorage and slip fees... currently they want $24.43/ft/month for recreational slip and transient fees of $44/ft/month (that would be us) or $2.75/ft/day and dinghy dockage of $6.00/day or $26.50/week and $80/month. It amplifies more if there is a special event going on... but they have a good amount of amenities some other marinas don't have.

I didn't have Key West on my list of places to go except for maybe a week or less... but it's an eye opener for what the real world is charging in terms of transient voyagers.


----------



## Cruisingdad

xort said:


> Are we talking livaboard...at the dock...or cruising?
> Brian, first thing you mentioned is marina fees. Most of us out cruising spend little time at marinas. Less than 15 days per year is quite easy most of the time for most of us. Mostly.


15 days is one marina stop a month, or a tad over. That seems very low to me. How are you making your water last a month at a time? Watermaker? Seems there are a lot of places i would not run that. What about showers? You need hot water for showers. Generator or main? How are you keeping up with your power?

There are workarounds to these things. We have not been in a marina since The end of October. But we have also invested in the systems to make it work outside of one: generator, 780 watts solar, good tender, etc. I also prefer to keep a clean boat (wash it once a week or so), we prefer to shower aboard, etc. Others may not care about that stuff.

I am not here to tell anyone "this is how you should cruise". Instead, it is how we do it and make it work. I suspect that most of those in the 500 crowd will be in for some real surprises when reality kicks in, or they will be forced to live in a level of comfort most of us would not consider. I suspect that will lead to a very short cruise.

Understand, if I was taking a 6 month hiatus then i would just deal with a lot more lack of comfort. But we have been doing this a long, long time and the reason we have made it work (for us) was that we saw the boat as our home and we were determined to make our home comfortable to our level of standards. Others have a different level. But most of the folks which we have run across cruising on the cheap have generally had a very short timeline in which they would be on the boat and were willing to do without many creature comforts. We have no end, per se.

Another point about marinas, they allow you to run air conditioning. How are you going to get around ac unless you sail pretty far north for the summer? You have to be pretty hardcore down here to go without air conditioning in the summer. I suspect that Chesapeake south would be very, very uncomfortable. And while we could sail north, we actually prefer the keys in the summer so that is not an option for us right now. So the summer months land us in a marina full-time.


----------



## Cruisingdad

Don0190 said:


> In the last 6 years I've NEVER stayed at a slip. There are $55/night mooring balls up here that already cuts into the beer budget too much.
> 
> But I believe last I looked it up that moorings were around $300/mo in Key West.


Are you a fulltime cruiser and you never stayed at a slip in 6 years? Have you ever spent any time on those balls in Key West? They SUCK in the winter as they are wide open to the north, and in the summer, when our winds are light and the lows (LOWS) hit about 85, they are miserable. And have i mentioned the no-seeums that can fit through your screens? The typical screens do not stop No-seeums and while you can get the screens that do, they are so tight they shut down the air flow. If you sleep out in the cockpit as many try, you will wake up the next morning looking like you have measles and will be a piny low of blood. You will wake up soaking wet with sweat.

If that is ok with you, as it is with some, no problem. But I am curious how long that will last?


----------



## Cruisingdad

Group9 said:


> Another point is listening to someone talk about how much air conditioning, or a macerator, can costs to repair, like every sailboat out there has air conditioning and electric heads.
> 
> I have a friend who could point out how much it cost to keep his two jet skis running when he was cruising and how it would be a disaster if someone didn't budget those kinds of repairs into their cruising budget.


Just so ya know, a macerator is the pump which empties your black water holding tank. It has NOTHING to do with a electric head.

No air conditioning eh? Spoken like someone who has never spent a month down here in the summer. You telling me I should not have air conditioning is like me telling you that you don't need a heater in winter... Right? Just put on a pair of socks and a jacket to keep warm. It is the same comparison. The heat down here is lethal and takes lives every year. As i said above, the winds are light and the humidity is hovering around 100%. It is very, very uncomfortable. Can you get used to it? Sure. But you will have many nights where you sleep soaking wet in sweat and are chewed up with mosquitos or noseeums.

Very, very few people down here go without ac. Those that do are pretty tough and have acclimated to it. Have you acclimated to it and can you as a cruiser?


----------



## Cruisingdad

guitarguy56 said:


> Thanks CD... I seen the fees for Key West moorage and slip fees... currently they want $24.43/ft/month for recreational slip and transient fees of $44/ft/month (that would be us) or $2.75/ft/day and dinghy dockage of $6.00/day or $26.50/week and $80/month. It amplifies more if there is a special event going on... but they have a good amount of amenities some other marinas don't have.
> 
> I didn't have Key West on my list of places to go except for maybe a week or less... but it's an eye opener for what the real world is charging in terms of transient voyagers.


KW Is a cool place. We like it, but we have kids and is not very kid friendly after dark. If we didnt have kids, we would spend more time there.


----------



## Cruisingdad

Oh yeah, I should have mentioned that the Tayana blew its engine last summer. Cost? Just under $25,000 to replace. How do we factor that into our cruising budget?


----------



## Cruisingdad

Or do we just take that out as an anomaly?


----------



## guitarguy56

Cruisingdad said:


> KW Is a cool place. We like it, but we have kids and is not very kid friendly after dark. If we didnt have kids, we would spend more time there.


Yes it is... my parent in-laws have a condo at Pelican Key... so this was our honeymoon destination for a month... the Keys were my first taste of potato skins, conch fritters, and other delights, even though I lived in West Palm Beach for over 15 years at that time... I think the Keys have changed since the last time we have gone there (1978-1988) so much has changed not just there but all up the coast... we drove down last year to meet my parent in-laws as they live in Palm Beach Point so all the way it was a concrete jungle with few spots open... we drove A1A all the way down so we can go to Ron Jons' and visit friends on the Space Coast.


----------



## guitarguy56

Cruisingdad said:


> Just so ya know, a macerator is the pump which empties your black water holding tank. It has NOTHING to do with a electric head.
> 
> No air conditioning eh? Spoken like someone who has never spent a month down here in the summer. You telling me I should not have air conditioning is like me telling you that you don't need a heater in winter... Right? Just put on a pair of socks and a jacket to keep warm. It is the same comparison. The heat down here is lethal and takes lives every year. As i said above, the winds are light and the humidity is hovering around 100%. It is very, very uncomfortable. Can you get used to it? Sure. But you will have many nights where you sleep soaking wet in sweat and are chewed up with mosquitos or noseeums.
> 
> Very, very few people down here go without ac. Those that do are pretty tough and have acclimated to it. Have you acclimated to it and can you as a cruiser?


It's tough to take in Savannah with the gnats (no seeums/mosquitos) not to mention the high humidity/high temps during the summer months... it's tough without air conditioning for sure much more further south...


----------



## Group9

Cruisingdad said:


> Oh yeah, I should have mentioned that the Tayana blew its engine last summer. Cost? Just under $25,000 to replace. How do we factor that into our cruising budget?


I found a spare engine for my boat for $6000.

What's in that Tayana? Something like these? 

Pair Yanmar 6LP 6LPA Ste STP 315HP Marine Diesel Engine Rebuilt Repower | eBay


----------



## Don L

Cruisingdad said:


> Are you a fulltime cruiser and you never stayed at a slip in 6 years? Have you ever spent any time on those balls in Key West? They SUCK in the winter as they are wide open to the north, and in the summer, when our winds are light and the lows (LOWS) hit about 85, they are miserable. And have i mentioned the no-seeums that can fit through your screens? The typical screens do not stop No-seeums and while you can get the screens that do, they are so tight they shut down the air flow. If you sleep out in the cockpit as many try, you will wake up the next morning looking like you have measles and will be a piny low of blood. You will wake up soaking wet with sweat.
> 
> If that is ok with you, as it is with some, no problem. But I am curious how long that will last?


I have this wild plan of when I don't like my location due to weather or whatever and it goes on long enough, I move to somewhere else. Key West has always seemed to me to be a place to visit, then to leave.

I do have air conditioning on the boat. One of these days I'm going to find out if it works.

But CD if you really want to have some fun with your posts go over to the $500/mo thread and try to tell them how it can not done as they will go crazy on you.


----------



## Group9

> Originally Posted by* Cruisingdad*
> Just so ya know, a macerator is the pump which empties your black water holding tank. It has NOTHING to do with a electric head.


Well, there you go. We obviously have differently designed systems. My electric head has a built in macerator. I also have a macerator on the pump out for the holding tank, as well as for the pump out for the holding tank of the aft manual head (which does not have an integral macerator).

Once you take a few of these things apart, you learn that kind of thing. 

And, I grew up in Mississippi and we're probably a little more heat and humidity tolerant that people from farther up north. I've got an air conditioner, and I've had them on other boats, too, but the boat I have now, is the first boat I ever had with one I could run anywhere but at the dock.

Believe me, if you don't have AC you learn pretty quick how to anchor to get the breeze and to avoid the no-see-ums.


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## xort

Brian
most cruisers cruise. You might try getting out once in a while.

we do not use a watermaker. When we stop for fuel, the fuel docks always provide free water. In most of the harbors up north there is free access to a town dock with free water. We carry about 110 gallons of water and never come close to running out. We always shower aboard every 2 to 3 days.
Plenty of electricity from engine alternator, solar panels, wind gen and honda 2k when necessary. And we run a very large refrig.
we never use our aircon, no need to up north at anchor.


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## guitarguy56

Huh? Many people in the Keys and southern parts of the South along with many Caribbean islands have no air conditioning... many have survived and are thriving to the dismay of those of us living in our little air conditioned/sit on our rear end watching TV worlds... they don't even think about it... I'm sure many before air conditioning was invented lived and cruised just fine and they continue to do so today... for those that have it great... for those that don't it's just one less worry...


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## Cruisingdad

Don0190 said:


> I have this wild plan of when I don't like my location due to weather or whatever and it goes on long enough, I move to somewhere else. Key West has always seemed to me to be a place to visit, then to leave.


So do I. I move when i want. I dont want to so i make it work. That is cruising to me. We south floridians love it when you guys who are opposed to air conditioning sail north. The summer is the absolute best time down here but we generally keep that secret to ourselves. In summer, everything is green, you can dive or snorkel without a wet suit, the water clears up... But wait, I shouldn't have told you that, right? Because Maine is calling. Please ignore this post.


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## Cruisingdad

Group9 said:


> I found a spare engine for my boat for $6000.
> 
> What's in that Tayana? Something like these?
> 
> Pair Yanmar 6LP 6LPA Ste STP 315HP Marine Diesel Engine Rebuilt Repower | eBay


The engine was circa 16k, it was the new 4jh4e. However, you have to redo the exhaust, intakes, mounts, you have cranes, pro installers, new prop alignments, and a month or two of yard time. 25 k. You want a receipt???


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## Don L

Cruisingdad said:


> . We south floridians love it when you guys who are opposed to air conditioning sail north.


Please show me where I said I was opposed to air conditioning? I grew up in the desert where it would be 110 and 90% humidly, sometimes the wind would blow and that just made it dusty out. Lighten up some.

If you weren't talking about me please quote someone else when doing your posts.


----------



## Cruisingdad

Group9 said:


> Well, there you go. We obviously have differently designed systems. My electric head has a built in macerator. I also have a macerator on the pump out for the holding tank, as well as for the pump out for the holding tank of the aft manual head (which does not have an integral macerator).
> 
> Once you take a few of these things apart, you learn that kind of thing.
> 
> And, I grew up in Mississippi and we're probably a little more heat and humidity tolerant that people from farther up north. I've got an air conditioner, and I've had them on other boats, too, but the boat I have now, is the first boat I ever had with one I could run anywhere but at the dock.
> 
> Believe me, if you don't have AC you learn pretty quick how to anchor to get the breeze and to avoid the no-see-ums.


Yeah right. For some reason, I thought this thread was about reality instead of theory. Brother, boating and cruising is all i have done my adult life and had kids aboard damn near birth over thirteen years ago!

When a boater mentions a macerator pump, it is generally assumed the pump which dumps the crap out of your holding tank. My electric heads also have a macerator, but not all electric heads do (or did you know that???). It was the macerator on the black water tank which failed. The seal between the motor and the pump broke and was leaking crap water into the boat. That is an immediate break-fix unless you don't mind your boat smelling like an outhouse. If you are ok with that, fine.

I grew up in East Texas where 90 plus days over 100 were common and the asphalt melts and throws up on your car. I understand heat too. But i have zero interest in surviving on my boat. This is supposed to be fun, right? So when it is not fun we find a way and place to fix it. Even the die-hards down here that grew up down here have a problem with the heat. You want to come down here and sleep in your sweat and anchored out to save a buck... Fine. Maybe you should consider going back to the 500 thread? This is supposed to be about reality and fun. Come spend a decade down here anchored out and then you or anyone else can lecture me about not needing ac. I am 14 years cruising this coast and running and giving you guys reality instead of bs. You want BS, go read another thread.

I would also love to hear your wives comments about sleeping in your sweat for time on end. Lets see how that works out for ya. And my kids probably have more time offshore and cruising on a boat than everyone on the thread added up.

I thought this thread was about reality???? I have been up front that what i do and the costs and that may not be what everyone does, that is fine. I have no problem with that. But if you would rather me blow smoke and give you the party-line from the magazines, brokers, or those whose cruising has been in summed into months versus years, i can do that too. My point was to give you real costs and instead of a shred of appreciation, i get crap about not knowing what the hell i am doing when my kids know more about boating than probably everyone on this thread.

In fact, the more i think about it, all you rich guys cruising on more than $500 a month are unrealistic and need to read my newest fiction novel. It is called, "rich guys suck and you can cruise the world like a king on $500 if you know how to anchor out in the wind."

Best seller that. May not get a lot of buyers for the second edition though.


----------



## Group9

Cruisingdad said:


> So do I. I move when i want. I dont want to so i make it work. That is cruising to me. We south floridians love it when you guys who are opposed to air conditioning sail north. The summer is the absolute best time down here but we generally keep that secret to ourselves. In summer, everything is green, you can dive or snorkel without a wet suit, the water clears up... But wait, I shouldn't have told you that, right? Because Maine is calling. Please ignore this post.


Wait a minute. I thought you were the one that said you had to have air conditioning? 

I'm not opposed to A/C. Just don't tell me I can't live without it on the hook, because some people can't. 

Heat and humidity are definitely something you can get used to (if that wasn't true, I would have missed out on one of the best jobs I ever had). If you couldn't I would have dropped dead working summers doing construction when in college. To me, the absolute worst thing you can do is go back and forth from air conditioning to outside heat. That's knowing that from living in a lot of hot places, including Miami.


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## Cruisingdad

xort said:


> Brian
> most cruisers cruise. You might try getting out once in a while.
> 
> we do not use a watermaker. When we stop for fuel, the fuel docks always provide free water. In most of the harbors up north there is free access to a town dock with free water. We carry about 110 gallons of water and never come close to running out. We always shower aboard every 2 to 3 days.
> Plenty of electricity from engine alternator, solar panels, wind gen and honda 2k when necessary. And we run a very large refrig.
> we never use our aircon, no need to up north at anchor.


We have 4 aboard, not 2 as you well know. And as you well know from fb, we are sitting still in marathon because we have finally met a large group of kids and the boys love it here. Can i move on? Absolutely. Will I? Not yet. My kids love it here.

I have been very upfront about our circumstances. However, i dont agree with you on the water usage. But we will leave it at that. I gave this thread our reality which was quickly crapped on. So my newest line is that anyone who cannot cruise on $500/month has issues.


----------



## Group9

Cruisingdad said:


> We have 4 aboard, not 2 as you well know. And as you well know from fb, we are sitting still in marathon because we have finally met a large group of kids and the boys love it here. Can i move on? Absolutely. Will I? Not yet. My kids love it here.
> 
> I have been very upfront about our circumstances. However, i dont agree with you on the water usage. But we will leave it at that. I gave this thread our reality which was quickly crapped on. So my newest line is that anyone who cannot cruise on $500/month has issues.


I have to admit that at this point, I am completely lost on whether you and I agree or disagree.


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## Don L

Isn't this the $3000/mo thread? That is what it says at the top of my screen.


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## Cruisingdad

Group9 said:


> Another point is listening to someone talk about how much air conditioning, or a macerator, can costs to repair, like every sailboat out there has air conditioning and electric heads.


This was the post i was referring to. If this was a tongue-in-cheek then please accept my apologies. I have not followed the 500 thread because it is absurd.

Down here, not every boat has ac. But those that do not have a hard time in the summer. I would love to poll them against wanting ac versus not. They live without it because they have no other choice.

If i offended you i apologize. I just saw this thread as a great opportunity to discuss how people cruise and reality versus some bs by those who have never done it or have not done it long. Jaysus, this is our lives. I am giving our real-world numbers. Suddenly i feel like all eyes are criticizing me and i feel like you guys are thinking we are rich. I have seen rich in my previous life. That ain't us. We are just a middle class family which has committed itself boating from the beginning. Not everyone will agree with us. Not everyone will do it as we have or should. But there are some things which we hold strong to from experience that I wish others would at least take into consideration versus dismissing out of hand.


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## Minnewaska

I would pay $500 per month just to avoid having to go to Key West. Been twice. Set a margarita record of some sort at Sloppy Joe's once. Never going back. Marathon sounds nice, will have to put that on my list. I've been to Key Largo (Ocean Reef club). You'll need $500 for dinner.


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## Cruisingdad

Minnewaska said:


> I would pay $500 per month just to avoid having to go to Key West. Been twice. Set a margarita record of some sort at Sloppy Joe's once. Never going back. Marathon sounds nice, will have to put that on my list. I've been to Key Largo (Ocean Reef club). You'll need $500 for dinner.


Hey Minne,

I love kw. The butterfly consortium is fabulous. I could walk the fort for hours. Incredible history (but not as good as the Tortugas). Hemingway, a stroll down the historic distric, and quite frankly, we have met some of tje nicest and most traveled cruisers in our life there. However, kw has a night life not conducive to kids. So it is not for us. If the schools didnt suck, we would buy a house there and base there. But... They are not great and we would have to private which we might anyways.

Kw by boat is a completely different experience. Hope you at least try it one day. A lot of fun. When you do, let me know. I will but the first round at Kevins.


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## outbound

Brian- I for one really appreciate hearing your experience and slant on reality. You go man!!!. Still, wonder about the energy budget. I now know I can get by with no fuel use running everything including the entertainment systems without ever turning on an engine ( genset or other). I envisioned turning on the AC for 1-2h just before bed most days. Is this realistic in the Florida/Bahama/Caribe region? There's just two of us with occasional four aboard so figure water making will be limited to rarely occurring when outside U.S. waters. Don't mind slips but like not having neighbors at least most of the tme. Do you think its necessary to have more than one unit in a 40-50' boat for your region? How many BTUs of cooling make things livable?


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## Minnewaska

CD, the thing I disliked the most was going for a walk in the morning. We're early risers and like to head out for a walk, find coffee, whatever. I found it almost impossible not to stumble over beer bottles and drunks still sleeping it off on the street. Same both times I was there. Is that normal?

The night life was as you describe. Fun the first time, got old quickly the second time, no need to repeat.


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## xort

Cruisingdad said:


> We have 4 aboard, not 2 as you well know. And as you well know from fb, we are sitting still in marathon because we have finally met a large group of kids and the boys love it here. Can i move on? Absolutely. Will I? Not yet. My kids love it here.
> 
> I have been very upfront about our circumstances. However, i dont agree with you on the water usage. But we will leave it at that. I gave this thread our reality which was quickly crapped on. So my newest line is that anyone who cannot cruise on $500/month has issues.


sorry about the tone, didnt come out the way I thought it would.
I still dont think a family of 4 would need a watermaker for coastal cruising. What is your tankage? We saw a half dozen kid boats anchored in Newport harbor this summer. If water access is what is keeping you tied to the dock, you need to rethink that. As I mentioned, there are plenty of town docks you can pull the boat up to and fill water tanks. In Newport they have a water float in the middle of the harbor. Free water.
Saw kid boats in the Bahamas where water is harder to come by but they were making do.

I jumped on this because you seemed to be inferring a boat with 4 people couldnt coastal cruise without suffering a water shortage. Again, between fuel stops where water is available, free town docks where water is available and an occasional stop at a marina where you can wash the boat and fill up...there is quite a bit of water accessable. If you're burning thru 50 gallons a day then you need to stay tied to the dock.

I think it is necesssry for people to differentiate between livaboard at the dock vs cruising. Big difference in lifestyles and costs


----------



## Group9

Minnewaska said:


> I would pay $500 per month just to avoid having to go to Key West. Been twice. Set a margarita record of some sort at Sloppy Joe's once. Never going back. Marathon sounds nice, will have to put that on my list. I've been to Key Largo (Ocean Reef club). You'll need $500 for dinner.


That was my impression as well, when I lived and boated in Miami. I went a couple of times and despite a few nice tourist attractions, decided that what was going on there, just wasn't exactly my cup of tea. I really don't even think it's that great for boating.

Now, the rest of the Keys, are wonderful, as far as I'm concerned. On land, and on the water.


----------



## Sal Paradise

I love hearing about and learning from the experiences of guys who are out there doing it. For those of you posting real experience, do not think for a minute that I am critical of some detail or opinion. That pales in comparison, same thing with the quibbling. Its usually a misunderstanding. Know that I ( and I am sure many others) truly appreciate the sharing of information. 

I have been to key west many times by land and I like it but my wife usualy has a melt down after a day or two because of all the tourist traffic and drunks. So we end up back at Lorelei in Islamorada. I think if we were on a boat she would get enough time for decompression. we could stay on the hook once in a while but I am thinking a marina slip would be best for her. 

We will have somewhere between 3 - 4 k/ month to spend when we go. We will have to spend less then $100k for the boat. Probably closer to $50k. Cash. Depends on if we sell the house back here or keep it. 

We will have free health insurance. With the boat paid for and $3k +/ month budget will I have to avoid and worry about such attractive tourist traps? If I have to get too stressed out about the money it won't be worth it.


----------



## ltgoshen

Group9 said:


> I found a spare engine for my boat for $6000.


I put a 2GM20F in the east Coast Lady.
All together was 3,105.39
Great little engine. I did the work my self and saved a lot of money. Maintenance done by oneself saves quite a bit of crusing kitty.


----------



## ltgoshen

Cruisingdad said:


> Down here, not every boat has ac. But those that do not have a hard time in the summer. I would love to poll them against wanting ac versus not. They live without it because they have no other choice.


In 2018 2019 Deb and I are headed down south to kw. Do you think a generator will work to keep us cool in the hottest part of the day? Of is that not the efficient way to stay cool? the C&C 30 has only the basic stuff and with out a/c. So I need to way to keep her comfortable. Or is it better to stay north when its dead of summer? We will not have $3,000 a month to spend. in fact unless something changes, it looks like we will only have $1,200 to $1500 a month. so very little dock time will be in that price? I have a little Honda 2000 gen. We will keep our home in SC rented out while we are on our 5 year cruise.
LT


----------



## Group9

ltgoshen said:


> Is 2018 2019 Deb and I are headed down south to kw. Do you think a generator will work to keep us cool in the hottest part of the day? Of is that not the efficient way to stay cool? the C&C 30 has only the basic stuff and with out a/c. So I need to way to keep her comfortable. Or is it better to stay north when its dead of summer? We will not have $3,000 a month to spend. in fact unless something changes, it looks like we will only have $1,200 to $1500 a month. so very little dock time will be in that price? I have a little Honda 2000 gen. We will keep our home in SC rented out while we are on our 5 year cruise.
> LT


The best thing to keep a sailboat cool in the summer is shade. On my boat, I have awnings that cover it from the bow to the stern with a lot of overhang. I learned that back from boating in boats that didn't have generators.

I have two ACs and a 4.5 KW genset on my boat, and awnings, and I prefer the awnings. Awnings are the kind of thing you may not see on a boat on its first trip down south, but they usually will be there on the second trip (think how much nicer it is under your bimini, and then think about the whole boat being shaded). I have custom made ones now, but back in the day, I used to use those cheap blue plastic tarps (they didn't last but one season usually, but it was cheap to buy more).

I like being outdoors. I don't cruise to be shut up in a boat with the AC going all day. I can do that at home.

The big thing you have to prepare for, anywhere down south from June to September, when boating and living on the boat, is hurricanes. They don't come that often, but you don't want to be the guy with no idea of what to do, and no place to go, when one does show up. Hurricanes are really the only negative in the south in the summer for me.


----------



## Tallswede

I definately agree with the awnings! I use tarps when anchored on my boat and it really helps. Texas summers are really hot and getting in the water with some shade over you helps too. I look at those big catamarans and think to myself 'man, it would sure be nice to be floating under that bridge deck with a cool drink' at anchor. LOL

Kevin.


----------



## Cruisingdad

Minnewaska said:


> CD, the thing I disliked the most was going for a walk in the morning. We're early risers and like to head out for a walk, find coffee, whatever. I found it almost impossible not to stumble over beer bottles and drunks still sleeping it off on the street. Same both times I was there. Is that normal?
> 
> The night life was as you describe. Fun the first time, got old quickly the second time, no need to repeat.


Did you go by boat? Completely different. People are very friendly and helpful.


----------



## Cruisingdad

Minnewaska said:


> I would pay $500 per month just to avoid having to go to Key West. Been twice. Set a margarita record of some sort at Sloppy Joe's once. Never going back. Marathon sounds nice, will have to put that on my list. I've been to Key Largo (Ocean Reef club). You'll need $500 for dinner.


Marathon is more our speed too. But i do like kw for what it is. Sorry u had a bad exp.


----------



## Cruisingdad

outbound said:


> Brian- I for one really appreciate hearing your experience and slant on reality. You go man!!!. Still, wonder about the energy budget. I now know I can get by with no fuel use running everything including the entertainment systems without ever turning on an engine ( genset or other). I envisioned turning on the AC for 1-2h just before bed most days. Is this realistic in the Florida/Bahama/Caribe region? There's just two of us with occasional four aboard so figure water making will be limited to rarely occurring when outside U.S. waters. Don't mind slips but like not having neighbors at least most of the tme. Do you think its necessary to have more than one unit in a 40-50' boat for your region? How many BTUs of cooling make things livable?


Thanks. I appreciate that.

40 foot no teak decks is 20k btu in two units with biggest in bow because that gets hottest by many fold. Awnings help cut that by 30% or better.

50 is a solid 28 btu. Plan for two separate 30 amps. One 50 would work too.


----------



## Cruisingdad

I will reply more later.


----------



## Minnewaska

Cruisingdad said:


> Did you go by boat? Completely different. People are very friendly and helpful.


Well, no. We arrived by private aircraft both times.

But, I don't get it. If I went for a walk in the morning from a boat, there wouldn't be drunks and bottles lying around? It's that environment that's old.


----------



## Group9

Minnewaska said:


> Well, no. We arrived by private aircraft both times.
> 
> But, I don't get it. If I went for a walk in the morning from a boat, there wouldn't be drunks and bottles lying around? It's that environment that's old.


To me, any time I want the Key West Experience on the cheap, I just get in my car and drive the 50 miles to New Orleans, Same thing as Key West, in a slightly different package.

Last time I was down there on my boat, I was heading to Key West, and then remembered at the last second that we would be arriving right as Fantasy Fest started. As exciting as that would be for many people, I turned the boat around and started heading back toward Marathon. 

Obviously, though, lots of people like that kind of stuff.


----------



## jerryrlitton

Maybe we need to define cruising again. 

I have read this thread and the 500USD/month thread quite thoroughly. On this one the rule seems to be find an expensive spot (whether it is a mooring or a slip) stay a month and pay for expensive bar tabs, restaurant food, perhaps pay for the dinghy dock, pump out, pay through the nose for gas for your 2kw gensets, for their plasma tv's Then whine about it. You may as well buy an Airstream trailer, hook up to your F250 and hang out at a KOA

The other guys, may spend 2-3 days somewhere where they restock on local food, meet local people, see things close to the boat and just relax. They cruise cruise perhaps 30-50 miles and do it again. WTH is a gen set anyway? Almost no diesel used because they actually sail. May not be as fast or convenient but if the wind is not blowing they hang out a bit longer, doing those sailing chores such as whipping line, sewing sails, lugging empty water containers to the dinghy so you can refill the main tanks on the boat. 

At the end of the month the 3000usd/month guys will have run gallons of fuel through the lines, may or may not have taken the sail covers off and have seen the latest movies on blue ray. 

The 500usd/month guys have perhaps torn a stitch on the sails, went over the side to clean the prop, made a lot of friends on shore, and tried some new foods and beer. Not to mention better cruising/sailing stories. (its all about the stories)

Just a matter of priorities eh?

Jerry


----------



## Don L

I'm sure everyone thanks you for the insulting assumptions


----------



## Group9

Don0190 said:


> I'm sure everyone thanks you for the insulting assumptions


I find the $500 versus $3000 thread battle amusing, to be honest.

And, like many people here, I imagine, I've had $500 months when cruising, and $3000 (and worse) months when cruising.


----------



## Bene505

Enjoying the thread. Some musing to share...

We are on the boat all summer, but it's much farther north. We have a 12v fan over each berth, which does the trick. As everyone knows, when on a hook, the boat is always pointed into the wind. There is nothing like a cool breese from a hatch that's open 45 degrees, deflecting the clean fresh wind onto your face. I have a cord going up to the hatch to pull it closed if it rains. Just got a stick for re-opening it, but haven't used it yet. Now that's good sleeping.

If I get A/C, it will be to keep the boat dryer and the humidity lower. No need to be much cooler here. And I'll take the big air space over the headliner boards and put some "next generation" insulation up there. I'm a huge believer in insulation. Insulation gives you options.

I do wonder if there's a way to do A/C on the hook. Maybe that big wonderful awning (as mentioned above) could be a big flexible solar panel. Then just run the A/C during the day. I'm pretty sure cycling the batteries every night to run an A/C would quickly turn them into bricks. I just bought a household de-humidifier for the boat, that runs at about 268 watts. With 500 watts of solar, I could run that for a while each day.

One of the major costs of our "fine dining" is aluminum foil. It's amazing how much you use when cooking for family and friends over the coals of a beach fire. For potatos, wrap them like a tootsie-roll. First wrap one end then put a handful of clean seawater in, then close the other side. They end up perfectly salted.

Burgers are easy. Open the foil to add cheese, but watch for igniting the bit of captured grease. We call these burgers "Falcon burgers" since we started doing it when we met up with Falcon Riley (of "Education of a Falcon" fame). It is (and he is) everyone's favorite.

Not sure we could get away with these cookouts at an anchorage down in the keys, on those skinny beaches. I'm thinking it's one of the reasons why it costs more to anchor where there are a lot of people, where others park their cars. ...and that cruising on a bigger budget lets you be closer to 1st world civilization, with A/C, hospitals, stores, professional entertainment.

It's winter. Can't wait 'til summer.

Regards,
Brad


----------



## Sal Paradise

This thread is sort of inching towards a point I wanted to make;

Rather than ask " How much does it cost to cruise?" Ask-

What does $3000/ month look like where I want to go? What does this budget get me?

Then a local or someone with experience could fill you in. For instance, where I am on the Hudson we get a lot of cruising boats, almost all of them well off middle class to super rich. 

For $3000/month in the summer you could stay in a marina with showers, a pool, restaurant --a true full service country club with picnic tables... ect..plus you could eat out twice a week, and take the train into NYC once or twice a month for sight seeing and have money left over for beer. You would find friendly people barbecuing and drinking in the evenings and bands playing. And a laundry right there for you. You could sail in the "bays" which are the wider parts of the river, about 1-2 miles across. There are usually racing clubs you could probably crew with. You could rent a car to get up into the mountains to hike or just see the countryside and shop for cheap food and supplies. There are lots of farm stands . But you'd spend every penny of that $3k doing it. 

For $500 a month, you'd probably be anchored on the river some place you could hitch hike or walk down the railroad tracks to a convenience store to get overpriced groceries and maybe a case of cheap beer. Some locals might look upon you suspiciously if you anchor too often in front of their property. In my younger days we'd anchor anywhere and I remember one little wooded beach where a homeowner had his German Sheppard chase us off. If you come ashore in one of those odd places you had better be smiling and cheerful and try to make friends. People are shallow so it would really help if you looked good in a bikini. And because you anchored out a lot, the 57 varieties of local cops plus the CG would all get to know you - one at a time, one way or another. If you were legal, most of them would be polite about it. The jokes about how your boat smelled or how you flushed your toilet would influence how you were treated. Laundry would be sketchy. Its possible at a few marinas to base your dingy cheaply and moor the boat but that might cost you more than you can afford. 

Did I paint you two different pictures of the same place? Which one feels like your thing?


----------



## hellosailor

I can't see that the city fathers would allow drunks on the streets after daylight. I mean, pretty damn near every day of every month there are cruise ships unloading 2,000-10,000 of your new best friends into the streets and shops of KW. Day in and day out, damn near every day of every month, as on the official city calendar from this month. (Sorry, the HTML mangles a bit.)

February 2014

Sunday Monday Tuesday Wednesday Thursday Friday Saturday 

1
Disney Wonder (B) 1130-1800
Nieuw Amsterdam (OM) 0730-1700 
2
Constellation (B) 0700-1730

3
Freedom (B) 0730-1600
Riviera (OM) 0800-1700 
4
Ecstasy (OM) 0730-1330
Sunshine (B) 1000-1800 
5
Grandeur (OM) 0900-1700 
6
Majesty (B) 0930-1800 Norwegian Pear (OM) 1200-2000
7
Constellation (B) 0700-1700 
8
Eurodam (B) 0800-1700
Maasdam (M) 0900-1700

9
Constellation (B) 0900-1700 
10
Serenade (B) 1100-1700
Ryndam (M) 1230-1800 
11
12
SS Navigator (M) 0800-1600 
13
14
Victory (OM) 0715-1400 Carnival Magic (B) 0930-1700
15
Disney Magic (B) 0830-1700


16
Constellation (B) 0900-1700

17
Ryndam (M) 1230-1800
Freedom (B) 0800-1700

18
Ecstasy (B) 0730-1330
19
Fascination (B) 0700-1500
20
Majesty (B) 0930-1800 
21
Constellation (B) 0800-1700 
22
Eurodam (B) 0800-1700



Updated 2/13/2014 
23
Constellation (B) 0900-1700

24
Serenade(B) 1100-1700
Fascination (OM) 0700-1500
SS Navigator (M) 0800-1600 
25
Ecstasy (OM) 0730-1330
Brilliance (B) 1130-1730
26


27
Majesty (B) 0930-1800
28
Victory (B) 0730-0200
Westerdam (OM) 0800-1700


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

Re airconditioning on the hook with solar...

When I was a kid fish shops had water flowing down the glass of the front window keeping the interior cool.

Reticulating water via a small pump through a bladder on deck (say the coach roof) might be able to work in a similar way, couldn't it?

Sea water is always cooler in summer than the ambient temperature.

Would only consume 4 amps/hour when the sun is up.


----------



## hellosailor

Mark-
Seawater problems, intake pump clogging, salt buildup, but evaporative cooling is still used when AC isn't feasible. You'd probably do better using mist nozzles and getting more evaporation than simply pumping water over the deck, but I think salt is still going to be the big problem.


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

hellosailor said:


> Mark-
> Seawater problems, intake pump clogging, salt buildup, but evaporative cooling is still used when AC isn't feasible. You'd probably do better using mist nozzles and getting more evaporation than simply pumping water over the deck, but I think salt is still going to be the big problem.


I am not suggesting pumping water over the deck. I am suggesting pumping it through a bladder. 

Salt water misting would just build up salt.


----------



## hellosailor

Bladder? Bladders aren't good conductors. What you want is, after all, a normal "radiator". Thta's old tech too, folks used to run cold water through yards of copper pipe as a cooler, pre-air-conditioning. Again, it works fine with fresh water but your salt water pump may clog, and critters will grow inside whatever (pipe, bladder) you are using for the heat exchanger. Aside from monel pipe being unaffordable these days and copper being almost as pricey...If you drop an intake pipe below the thermocline (10-20 feet typically) and filter the intake water, you should be able to get good cooling, until you have some kind of scaling or clogging. Might even be able to get acceptable results with the cheaper PEX tubing that is used for in-floor heating and cooling as well.

Only one way to find out, right? (G)


----------



## Group9

hellosailor said:


> I can't see that the city fathers would allow drunks on the streets after daylight. I mean, pretty damn near every day of every month there are cruise ships unloading 2,000-10,000 of your new best friends into the streets and shops of KW. Day in and day out, damn near every day of every month, as on the official city calendar from this month. (Sorry, the HTML mangles a bit.)
> 
> February 2014
> 
> Sunday Monday Tuesday Wednesday Thursday Friday Saturday
> 
> 1
> Disney Wonder (B) 1130-1800
> Nieuw Amsterdam (OM) 0730-1700
> 2
> Constellation (B) 0700-1730
> 
> 3
> Freedom (B) 0730-1600
> Riviera (OM) 0800-1700
> 4
> Ecstasy (OM) 0730-1330
> Sunshine (B) 1000-1800
> 5
> Grandeur (OM) 0900-1700
> 6
> Majesty (B) 0930-1800 Norwegian Pear (OM) 1200-2000
> 7
> Constellation (B) 0700-1700
> 8
> Eurodam (B) 0800-1700
> Maasdam (M) 0900-1700
> 
> 9
> Constellation (B) 0900-1700
> 10
> Serenade (B) 1100-1700
> Ryndam (M) 1230-1800
> 11
> 12
> SS Navigator (M) 0800-1600
> 13
> 14
> Victory (OM) 0715-1400 Carnival Magic (B) 0930-1700
> 15
> Disney Magic (B) 0830-1700
> 
> 16
> Constellation (B) 0900-1700
> 
> 17
> Ryndam (M) 1230-1800
> Freedom (B) 0800-1700
> 
> 18
> Ecstasy (B) 0730-1330
> 19
> Fascination (B) 0700-1500
> 20
> Majesty (B) 0930-1800
> 21
> Constellation (B) 0800-1700
> 22
> Eurodam (B) 0800-1700
> 
> Updated 2/13/2014
> 23
> Constellation (B) 0900-1700
> 
> 24
> Serenade(B) 1100-1700
> Fascination (OM) 0700-1500
> SS Navigator (M) 0800-1600
> 25
> Ecstasy (OM) 0730-1330
> Brilliance (B) 1130-1730
> 26
> 
> 27
> Majesty (B) 0930-1800
> 28
> Victory (B) 0730-0200
> Westerdam (OM) 0800-1700


USATODAY.com - Four Cuban coast guardsmen defect in Key West

I was in Miami when this happened (and, ironically, I was in Cuba myself a week later). The really humorous part of this story is how far they had to walk before they even found a police officer. Now it was early in the morning. But, I always use this story to point out how laid back Key West is. Four Cubans, in Cuban military uniforms, one with a pistol on, who dock a patrol boat flying Cuban flags, can walk all over town, *and they have to initiate contact with the police.* 

If that doesn't tell the story of what it takes to get in trouble in Key West, I don't know what does.


----------



## newhaul

Remember in 82 they declared independence from America as the conch republic the USCG was involved and the us government backed down I don't know if they ever officially rejoined the USA you can still get a conch republic passport and it is actually accepted by some central american countries that don't like america a year or so ago someone posted on here in the piracy threads that they were left alone because they had those commemerative passports showing they were not Americans.


----------



## guitarguy56

Sal Paradise said:


> This thread is sort of inching towards a point I wanted to make;
> 
> Rather than ask " How much does it cost to cruise?" Ask-
> 
> What does $3000/ month look like where I want to go? What does this budget get me?
> 
> Then a local or someone with experience could fill you in. For instance, where I am on the Hudson we get a lot of cruising boats, almost all of them well off middle class to super rich.
> 
> For $3000/month in the summer you could stay in a marina with showers, a pool, restaurant --a true full service country club with picnic tables... ect..plus you could eat out twice a week, and take the train into NYC once or twice a month for sight seeing and have money left over for beer. You would find friendly people barbecuing and drinking in the evenings and bands playing. And a laundry right there for you. You could sail in the "bays" which are the wider parts of the river, about 1-2 miles across. There are usually racing clubs you could probably crew with. You could rent a car to get up into the mountains to hike or just see the countryside and shop for cheap food and supplies. There are lots of farm stands . But you'd spend every penny of that $3k doing it.
> 
> For $500 a month, you'd probably be anchored on the river some place you could hitch hike or walk down the railroad tracks to a convenience store to get overpriced groceries and maybe a case of cheap beer. Some locals might look upon you suspiciously if you anchor too often in front of their property. In my younger days we'd anchor anywhere and I remember one little wooded beach where a homeowner had his German Sheppard chase us off. If you come ashore in one of those odd places you had better be smiling and cheerful and try to make friends. People are shallow so it would really help if you looked good in a bikini. And because you anchored out a lot, the 57 varieties of local cops plus the CG would all get to know you - one at a time, one way or another. If you were legal, most of them would be polite about it. The jokes about how your boat smelled or how you flushed your toilet would influence how you were treated. Laundry would be sketchy. Its possible at a few marinas to base your dingy cheaply and moor the boat but that might cost you more than you can afford.
> 
> Did I paint you two different pictures of the same place? Which one feels like your thing?


So with your $3000/month budget on your C22... that should go a long way right? It's good you stay on this thread rather than the $500/month thread since on your small yacht you'll be welcomed anywhere you go... right?


----------



## hellosailor

The Cuban defection was in early 2003, more than a decade ago. Doesn't say much about conditions today. Let's put it in perspective, KW hasn't been a big cruise ship destination for all _that _long, either.

Of course, they could have been CIA sleeper agents returning home to the US, too. (VBG)


----------



## Group9

hellosailor said:


> The Cuban defection was in early 2003, more than a decade ago. Doesn't say much about conditions today. Let's put it in perspective, KW hasn't been a big cruise ship destination for all _that _long, either.
> 
> Of course, they could have been CIA sleeper agents returning home to the US, too. (VBG)


How many times have you actually been to Key West?


----------



## hellosailor

Just once, and not for long. Five thousand of my new best friends were having a flash mob from the cruise ships. 

What's that got to do with how and whether it has changed in the past decade? Everyplace changes. Especially when it goes from "way out there" to flash mobs.


----------



## Group9

hellosailor said:


> Just once, and not for long. Five thousand of my new best friends were having a flash mob from the cruise ships.
> 
> What's that got to do with how and whether it has changed in the past decade? Everyplace changes. Especially when it goes from "way out there" to flash mobs.


How would you know if it's changed if you've only seen it one time?


----------



## hellosailor

Perhaps I have spies everywhere? And a webcam in your...Oh wait, you're not supposed to know about that one. (VBG)

I've got a long list of places that used to be open fields and now are full of tract housing. You think I need to go there to confirm there's been a change?


----------



## Sal Paradise

guitarguy56 said:


> So with your $3000/month budget on your C22... that should go a long way right? It's good you stay on this thread rather than the $500/month thread since on your small yacht you'll be welcomed anywhere you go... right?


I was illustrating a point about what $3000/ month would buy on the Hudson. What is your point?


----------



## guitarguy56

Sal Paradise said:


> I was illustrating a point about what $3000/ month would buy on the Hudson. What is your point?


I was also illustrating a point as well... you quote that the guys voyaging on $500 would be met with criticism and malice anywhere they go but many are voyaging on vessels much larger and therefore taken as more a 'yacht' in the eyes of the so call CG and country bumpkin cops as you so mentioned... compared to the guys with little 20-22 foot boats talking about their plans... I merely mentioned if you have $3000/month to spend on your 22 foot boat... great! You get to enjoy the many benefits on the Hudson/local areas... but I doubt you'll be in the Keys or sailing the Caribbean/South Seas even if you did sail with $3000/month as many on the other thread plan to do.

Just sayin'... :laugher


----------



## Sal Paradise

I would really like to see a quote of me saying that "_ guys voyaging on $500 will be met with criticism and malice anywhere they go" ._ That doesn't sound like me. I never said that and I don't believe that. Nor do I look down on anyone, even if they have a small boat or small budget right now -- but that seems to me what you are doing. Now let's just go back to ignoring each other.


----------



## guitarguy56

Sal Paradise said:


> I would really like to see a quote of me saying that "_ guys voyaging on $500 will be met with criticism and malice anywhere they go" ._ That doesn't sound like me. I never said that and I don't believe that. Nor do I look down on anyone, even if they have a small boat or small budget right now -- but that seems to me what you are doing. Now let's just go back to ignoring each other.





Sal Paradise said:


> For $500 a month, you'd probably be anchored on the river some place you could hitch hike or walk down the railroad tracks to a convenience store to get overpriced groceries and maybe a case of cheap beer. Some locals might look upon you suspiciously if you anchor too often in front of their property. In my younger days we'd anchor anywhere and I remember one little wooded beach where a homeowner had his German Sheppard chase us off. If you come ashore in one of those odd places you had better be smiling and cheerful and try to make friends. People are shallow so it would really help if you looked good in a bikini. And because you anchored out a lot, the 57 varieties of local cops plus the CG would all get to know you - one at a time, one way or another. If you were legal, most of them would be polite about it. The jokes about how your boat smelled or how you flushed your toilet would influence how you were treated. Laundry would be sketchy. Its possible at a few marinas to base your dingy cheaply and moor the boat but that might cost you more than you can afford.


Seems to me you've forgotten your own post? Ignoring each other has nothing to do with this... If you say it live up to it!


----------



## Sal Paradise

You left out where I wrote -"For instance, where I am on the Hudson.."

That is just a realistic description of one specific area - The Hudson River. It is based on my many years of knowledge of the Hudson. No place did I say "anywhere you go" or "malice" and I did not criticise anyone.I am 100% in support of cheap adventure.

Am I wrong - about the Hudson? Then correct me. As for my little C22 - this is't the only boat I or my family have ever owned. But you with your 25 foot boat! What is _THAT_ like? You must have all the insight.I look forward to the benefit of your superior knowledge.

Or ignoring you.


----------



## guitarguy56

Sal Paradise said:


> You left out where I wrote -"For instance, where I am on the Hudson.."
> 
> That is just a realistic description of one specific area - The Hudson River. It is based on my many years of knowledge of the Hudson. No place did I say "anywhere you go" or "malice" and I did not criticise anyone.I am 100% in support of cheap adventure. I look forward to the benefit of your superior knowledge. Am I wrong - about the Hudson?


I guess my superior knowledge doesn't apply since I don't plan on sailing the Hudson and I imagine many others... but you seem to be the expert... I read some of your responses both here and on the chat forum... you're in no support of the $500/month thread!



> As for my little C22 - this is't the only boat I or my family have ever owned. But you with your 25 foot boat!


I don't know I guess size matters... but you probably know that right! 

Let's just agree to disagree...doesn't make sense to continue ranting on this... many don't plan to travel up the Hudson on their way down to the Keys or Bahamas.

PS... I see you edit your responses while I post mine.... My experience every weekend on Puget Sound sailing all the way from Everett to Seattle, Union Bay, Lake Washington, Port Townsend, San Juan's, etc... Yeah... all great and it's done with a working marine head (you know the water flush type) something I'm sure you don't have on a C22... maybe the Hudson cops and CG need to look at your potty holding bucket... best to do as you wish!


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## aeventyr60

Would it be possible to anchor in the Hudson river, dinghy to shore and find a pastrami on Rye? Maybe catch a subway to Yankee field and watch an afternoon game? If so, then it might just be paradise.... As long as the Mariners win!


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## Minnewaska

aeventyr60 said:


> Would it be possible to anchor in the Hudson river, dinghy to shore and find a pastrami on Rye? Maybe catch a subway to Yankee field and watch an afternoon game?


Yes, but it's Yankee Stadium! Humph, left coasters...... 



> If so, then it might just be paradise.... As long as the Mariners win!


This, however, is not possible. 

p.s. moved some time ago, but born and raised in NY metro. Delivered papers as a kid and couldn't stay up to watch the games. I read the box scores every day before I left on my route.


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## guitarguy56

Minnewaska said:


> Yes, but it's Yankee Stadium! Humph, left coasters......
> 
> This, however, is not possible.
> 
> p.s. moved some time ago, but born and raised in NY metro. Delivered papers as a kid and couldn't stay up to watch the games. I read the box scores every day before I left on my route.


I grew up in NY or Canarsie to be exact when the sand dunes were there and remember riding our bikes along the Belt Parkway... my dad had a medical practice there before we moved to Morristown, NJ. We used to sail our dinghies in Jamaica Bay... it was great and my dad used to take us up the Hudson with his fishing friends so I know the area as a child/young man would at the time... didn't change much in the way of life I imagine compared to what it is now, I grew up with many Jewish, Italian, and Spanish families that lived there so the culture/food was as expected growing up in the big city but small town Canarsie. Prospect Park was our park of choice when the entire family did their holiday hangouts.

I'll not say a word regarding the Yankees and the Mariners and just say the better team won last year!


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## christian.hess

^you guys sound like futbol fans down here

btw real madrid plays today the absolute best futbol team in the world! ajajajajajajaajajaja


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## newhaul

christian.hess said:


> ^you guys sound like futbol fans down here
> 
> btw real madrid plays today the absolute best futbol team in the world! ajajajajajajaajajaja


Really I didn't even know that the Seattle sounders had a game against Madrid today:laugher:laugher


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## Don L

I wonder what all this has to do with the topic?


----------



## Cruisingdad

jerryrlitton said:


> Maybe we need to define cruising again.
> 
> I have read this thread and the 500USD/month thread quite thoroughly. On this one the rule seems to be find an expensive spot (whether it is a mooring or a slip) stay a month and pay for expensive bar tabs, restaurant food, perhaps pay for the dinghy dock, pump out, pay through the nose for gas for your 2kw gensets, for their plasma tv's Then whine about it. You may as well buy an Airstream trailer, hook up to your F250 and hang out at a KOA
> 
> The other guys, may spend 2-3 days somewhere where they restock on local food, meet local people, see things close to the boat and just relax. They cruise cruise perhaps 30-50 miles and do it again. WTH is a gen set anyway? Almost no diesel used because they actually sail. May not be as fast or convenient but if the wind is not blowing they hang out a bit longer, doing those sailing chores such as whipping line, sewing sails, lugging empty water containers to the dinghy so you can refill the main tanks on the boat.
> 
> At the end of the month the 3000usd/month guys will have run gallons of fuel through the lines, may or may not have taken the sail covers off and have seen the latest movies on blue ray.
> 
> The 500usd/month guys have perhaps torn a stitch on the sails, went over the side to clean the prop, made a lot of friends on shore, and tried some new foods and beer. Not to mention better cruising/sailing stories. (its all about the stories)
> 
> Just a matter of priorities eh?
> 
> Jerry


Uh, no.

The difference is that this thread has at least some basis in reality. Food costs money. The days of no insurance are coming to a close. You are required by law not to pumpout within 7 miles of the keys, and the typical boat simply does not have a large enough holding tank for really long waits between. Things break on a boat and can be very expensive to repair, even if you do it yourself. The problem is that people don't want to hear that because it does not fit their perception of what reality 'should be' versus what it really is.

I have been sitting on a ball since October, only had a one day marina trip last Saturday. I haul my own water. I make power from solar, but even with 780 watts i run the generator periodically to supplement. I have not rented a movie since before Christmas because the closest Redbox is too far to ride that next morning. I do not own a car and ride my bicycle everywhere. Yet, I will tell you this post is more in line with reality than 500. I would rather people prepare for 3000/month and try to make 500 work, than prepare for 500/month and scramble trying to realize it is closer to 3000.

Brian


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## svzephyr44

jerryrlitton said:


> Maybe we need to define cruising again.
> 
> I have read this thread and the 500USD/month thread quite thoroughly. On this one the rule seems to be find an expensive spot (whether it is a mooring or a slip) stay a month and pay for expensive bar tabs, restaurant food, perhaps pay for the dinghy dock, pump out, pay through the nose for gas for your 2kw gensets, for their plasma tv's Then whine about it.
> Jerry


I think you are well off the mark.

First, I don't understand the competition from the $500 per month people. Yes, you can live on $500 per month on a sailboat. I did it on $800 per month for several months. Does this make you a hero? A saint? Special in some way? Reading the responses to my posts on the $500 per month thread I would have to conclude that spending more than $500 per month is evil. You seem to agree based on the above quote. That is why i stopped posting on that thread.

Second, I think for most people the question is: "what is a realistic planning number for full time cruising?" I find this thread much more enlightening then the $500 per month thread. When I started out I had no real idea of how much I was going to spend. My insurance cost $800 per year. I could handle that. As soon as I wanted to leave the US it jumped to $2,000 per year. And I had to pay for a survey on top of that.

Third, in the short term what one includes in one's "cruising budget" has a lot of variation. One can divide between "getting ready for cruising" and "the cost of cruising." So bottom paint, decent sails, life jackets, life raft, EPIRB, solar panels, wind generators, water makers, etc. can go into "getting ready for cruising." This accounting decision makes the "cruising budget" seem smaller. Over a five year period these things break and need to be repaired or replaced. For most people in my experience selecting the cruising lifestyle is a post career 5 to 10 year evolution. At that point for a variety of reasons they move on to land. So I think a 5 year or 10 year budget is much more realistic.

To my fourth and final point. Over the course of 5 years of world cruising I have found that $800 per month did not make it. Some people can live their entire lives on less. I had a crew member who build a home and lived off the grid for 10 years. He grew his own food, made his own electricity, etc. I guess his biggest expense was property taxes. There is an old saying "amputation with a dull spoon is possible, it just takes a long time and is very messy."  I think (and therefore I am ) that the average cruising couple would not want to try and sustain themselves on $500 per month. Could they? Yes. But for those coming here for an assessment of the average costs for most people to sustain a lifestyle that does not include ...



jerryrlitton said:


> expensive bar tabs, restaurant food, perhaps pay for the dinghy dock, pump out, pay through the nose for gas for your 2kw gensets, for their plasma tv's ...
> Jerry


... are more likely to find the answer here than on the $500 per month thread.

In the real world things cost money - country clearances, repairs, food, fuel, water in many places. When I raised the issue that clearing into the Bahamas was a $400 evolution I was told on the $500 thread "well, stay 10 months and it is only $40 per month." Why go at all? You can save $400. 

A final note. At some point one should take into account the loss of value to a boat. Presuming that at some point one is going to stop cruising and sell the boat what is the residual value? A boat with blown out sails, non-functional equipment, dead bottom paint etc. is going to be worth a lot less, just as a car with bald tires. This too is a "cost of cruising."

Fair winds and following seas.


----------



## Cruisingdad

xort said:


> sorry about the tone, didnt come out the way I thought it would.
> 
> I still dont think a family of 4 would need a watermaker for coastal cruising. What is your tankage? We saw a half dozen kid boats anchored in Newport harbor this summer. If water access is what is keeping you tied to the dock, you need to rethink that. As I mentioned, there are plenty of town docks you can pull the boat up to and fill water tanks. In Newport they have a water float in the middle of the harbor. Free water.
> 
> Saw kid boats in the Bahamas where water is harder to come by but they were making do.
> 
> I jumped on this because you seemed to be inferring a boat with 4 people couldnt coastal cruise without suffering a water shortage. Again, between fuel stops where water is available, free town docks where water is available and an occasional stop at a marina where you can wash the boat and fill up...there is quite a bit of water accessable. If you're burning thru 50 gallons a day then you need to stay tied to the dock.
> 
> I think it is necesssry for people to differentiate between livaboard at the dock vs cruising. Big difference in lifestyles and costs


Hey E, it's all good. We are friends. I also appreciate your comments and I think it is good for the thread because you are also cruising. I have been upfront that I am not telling anyone how to do it, but how we do it and how we have kept doing for now on 14 years (for the most part).

Lets see, water usage: 2.4 seemed to be the average per person/day on the cruisers i polled (though ours hits 2.2 without washing much if any an no boat washing). We can push that down to about 1.5 but that is pure water conservation and not enjoyable for long periods. 2.4 (wasnt that your usage too?) is not fun but doable. Something close to five, especially including clothes washing, probably comes in quite comfortable.

I have plumbed and wired for a water maker, but honestly, i have yet to find a real hard need for it. The places we enjoy staying, Boot Key Harbor for instance, i would not make water at... Nor would I at most other popular harbors. And honestly, water has never really been one of our most restricting issues, but an issue.

When you said,"water usage keeping you tied to the dock..." I was not sure if you meant me personally or a person in general. Certainly isnt keeping me from leaving a marina since (except for Saturday) i have not been at a dock in four months!!! Curiously, how long has it been for you? I do agree that if water is keeping a person at the dock, there are ways around that depending on the boat.

But that is not the only issue. Other issues are are black water. How much does your boat hold? The average person will make 1-3 gallons of black water waste/day. Electroscans are becoming increasingly prohibited and many areas, including the entire florida keys, are no discharge zones to seven miles out (not 3). How long before you have to get pumped out? You can get pumped out at some gas docks, but they generally charge you for it too (our last one was $25). When you begin adding that into your budget, many of whom will need 2/week, that bites hard into the 500/month business.

Now what about trash? Can you throw your trash into the local dumpsters or gas fuel docks? Well, maybe. We have been to places from Pensacola to the Keys where they let you... And others where they dont.

Come summer, the rules begin to change. I have little interest in going up the coast just to escape the heat. We have talked ourselves into going up the coast for years, and talk ourselves out of it every year. I do think we will do it one year, but as I love the west coast of Fl and the keys in the summer (more than the winter), it may be a while. Come summer, we have to have air conditioning. While i dont mind the heat during the day (dont enjoy it either), it is the heat at night that is the killer. A day? Nah. A few days or week-2 in the tortugas or marq? No problem. But day in day out for months? No. I neither want to be miserable nor does my budget require it. There are those who do it without ac, but they are tough brother! And they dont do it because they want, they do it because they have to. Some can do it long term, most get burned out (no pun intended). Before anyone says they dont need a marina or ac in the s fl summer, tell me how long you have done it on a boat! As i have said before, some days are frankly miserable.

So the water was only one thing which i was pointing out where i disagree with your 15 days/year marina bit. There other factors. For those who will sail to New England every year and back, maybe you can make the 15 days work. But you will also move out of this area in the most beautiful time and even going up the coast carries its own costs.


----------



## Cruisingdad

svzephyr44 said:


> I think you are well off the mark.
> 
> First, I don't understand the competition from the $500 per month people. Yes, you can live on $500 per month on a sailboat. I did it on $800 per month for several months. Does this make you a hero? A saint? Special in some way? Reading the responses to my posts on the $500 per month thread I would have to conclude that spending more than $500 per month is evil. You seem to agree based on the above quote. That is why i stopped posting on that thread.
> 
> Second, I think for most people the question is: "what is a realistic planning number for full time cruising?" I find this thread much more enlightening then the $500 per month thread. When I started out I had no real idea of how much I was going to spend. My insurance cost $800 per year. I could handle that. As soon as I wanted to leave the US it jumped to $2,000 per year. And I had to pay for a survey on top of that.
> 
> Third, in the short term what one includes in one's "cruising budget" has a lot of variation. One can divide between "getting ready for cruising" and "the cost of cruising." So bottom paint, decent sails, life jackets, life raft, EPIRB, solar panels, wind generators, water makers, etc. can go into "getting ready for cruising." This accounting decision makes the "cruising budget" seem smaller. Over a five year period these things break and need to be repaired or replaced. For most people in my experience selecting the cruising lifestyle is a post career 5 to 10 year evolution. At that point for a variety of reasons they move on to land. So I think a 5 year or 10 year budget is much more realistic.
> 
> To my fourth and final point. Over the course of 5 years of world cruising I have found that $800 per month did not make it. Some people can live their entire lives on less. I had a crew member who build a home and lived off the grid for 10 years. He grew his own food, made his own electricity, etc. I guess his biggest expense was property taxes. There is an old saying "amputation with a dull spoon is possible, it just takes a long time and is very messy."  I think (and therefore I am ) that the average cruising couple would not want to try and sustain themselves on $500 per month. Could they? Yes. But for those coming here for an assessment of the average costs for most people to sustain a lifestyle that does not include ...
> 
> ... are more likely to find the answer here than on the $500 per month thread.
> 
> In the real world things cost money - country clearances, repairs, food, fuel, water in many places. When I raised the issue that clearing into the Bahamas was a $400 evolution I was told on the $500 thread "well, stay 10 months and it is only $40 per month." Why go at all? You can save $400.
> 
> A final note. At some point one should take into account the loss of value to a boat. Presuming that at some point one is going to stop cruising and sell the boat what is the residual value? A boat with blown out sails, non-functional equipment, dead bottom paint etc. is going to be worth a lot less, just as a car with bald tires. This too is a "cost of cruising."
> 
> Fair winds and following seas.


One of the issues too I think is the longevity. Maybe i can see the disconnect now. When I talk about cruising, I factor it in over years. I have done it a long time and will continue to. For those that dont consider the outfittimg of the boat, nor repairs, but simply see 'can i cruise (survive) for a while on 500/mo' well, yeah. Maybe you can? But like I said, the engine in the Tayana blew last year. All said and done, 25,000. That is 50 months of their cruising... Or wait? We don't count that? Yeah right. Bottom job is, realistically with zincs, 1600-2000 done or maybe half that if you do it yourself. Or wait, we dont add that? Yeah right.

Like I said, at least this thread has some basis of reality especially when added in for long periods. Maybe a bit more than some, a bit less than others.

Oh, and I asked this before: how many of the wives have been chiming in on this thread??? Sometimes these posts (and many on the 500 thread) smack of a guys night out and a lot of bar talk.


----------



## svzephyr44

xort said:


> ...I still dont think a family of 4 would need a watermaker for coastal cruising...
> 
> I think it is necessary for people to differentiate between live aboard at the dock vs cruising. Big difference in lifestyles and costs


Let me take this backwards. I think that one reason this thread goes all over the place is that our assumptions of the definition of "cruising" is all over the map. Perhaps a better way to phrase the question would be:

If I want to:

Live aboard and occasionaly sail in the local area
Live aboard and travel the East or West Coast of the US
Live aboard and "snowbird" to the Caribbean
World cruise or circumnavigate

what is a reasonable budget?

I budget about $2500 per month which includes a substantial reserve for the unexpected. I have crossed the Atlantic twice and intend to cross the Pacific in the near future. I just spent $1500 (3 months budget on $500 per month) to have my life raft serviced. There are times when I spend no money but beat the hell out of the boat (like crossing from the Canary Islands to the Caribbean.) There are times when I spend a lot of money and don't do much sailing (like when I am repairing the boat after crossing the Atlantic.) There are expensive cruising grounds (Guadeloupe) and cheap cruising grounds (Montserrat.) Over the course of 4+ years $2500 on a 42 foot sailboat is what turns out to be my expense profile. That cost includes upgrades to the boat - some quite expensive (e.g. Monitor Wind Vane steering device) and a couple of unexpected repairs (like dragging in a freak thunderstorm and destroying my rudder and needing to repair my sails after another freak storm.)

I have a lot of equipment on my boat that a coastal cruiser can do without: Marine/Ham MF/HF radio, the Monitor, Solar Panels, watermaker, radar, dual chart plotters, XM Radio weather subscription, satellite telephone, etc.) They all cost money both to acquire and to keep in repair. I also have a lot of redundancy. Two autopilots - the vane and electric. Four VHF radios. Dual rather than one chart plotter. Would I want to solo across an ocean without them? No. That is why I have them.

Money is a limiting factor in world cruising. If one's dream includes circumnavigation ("_those far away places with the strange sounding names"_) or even significant island hopping in the Caribbean and East coast of North/Central America rather than staying at one's favorite sheltered anchorage and day sailing it is going to cost a lot more. Just three costs: charts, cruising guides, and country clearances can add up to quite a dent in your monthly budget. The world is also a far less financially friendly place then it was a decade or two ago. Many countries are enforcing length of stay restrictions (Europe for non-Europeans and the US for non-US boats.) The places one goes (such as Turkey) when one has to leave have caught on and raised their prices. Not to mention the occasional "Government sweeps" that seem to pick up boats at random and impound them as happened in Mexico last month. See http://www.cruisingworld.com/news/the-poop-from-impounded-boats-in-mexico-hits-the-fan A big unexpected expense for 338 cruisers. The golden lining, if there is one, is that world cruisers are, if it is possible, even more supportive of each other than in the past. Sharing or passing down cruising guide, charts, etc. has always been the norm. It is more important now than ever.

Fair winds and following seas.


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## Don L

One of the things I've been doing for some time now is searching blogs etc looking for info on what they are spending. One of the great things about this is that you also get to learn what they doing and where they are spending their time at to match it with the money. That allows you to make some decisions on how you would do it different. From this is how I identified the $3000/mo budget as a reasonable amount for ME. I even have PM'd forums members over the years once I get a feel for how they are spending their time cruising and the things they are doing.

One of the places to look is below that has a lot of interviews with different cruisers, some don't have any cost info but some do and you just have to go though them.

The INTERVIEW WITH A CRUISER Project


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## newhaul

Don0190 said:


> I wonder what all this has to do with the topic?


I guess not much to do with the topic of the thread but that's half of the posts on sail net have nothing perticular to do with the topic OK rant over tie in christian how much would it cost on average per person to go to an afternoons enjoyment at the game today between schalke and real Madrid include some snacks and a couple beers per adult and sodas per child for a family of four.


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## Don L

Here is another b log link with actual costs and if you follow the links for "boats we follow" there are some more that have cost sections in them.

Cruising Budget 2011-2012 | Come Along with S.V. Scream


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## svzephyr44

A funny note on maintenance - the cost of which I have been harping unmercifully about in this thread:

As I was getting up from the salon table I bumped into it. I heard a rattling sound. Reaching under I discovered that two of the eight screws were loose. Sure, it took 1 minute and a screwdriver. But my point is stuff like this is always happening even on well maintained boats.

Fair winds and following seas.


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## Don L

newhaul said:


> I guess not much to do with the topic of the thread but that's half of the posts on sail net have nothing perticular to do with the topic OK rant over tie in christian *how much would it cost on average per person to go to an afternoons enjoyment at the game today between schalke and real Madrid include some snacks and a couple beers per adult and sodas per child for a family of four*.


And that number would be something included in an entertainment budget, so if you have done this while cruising and have a dollar amount post it.


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## newhaul

Sorry if I piss people off here not my intent I happily glean any nuggets off all posts on the entire site the biggest thing I have seen here between the 500 thread and the 3000 thread 
1) the people in both seem to be more concerned with actual numbers titled in thread than the general 
Theme
2). In the 3 k they seem to be larger vessels with obviously higher operational costs ( heck some spend more on a bottom paint job than some others smaller vessels entire annual maintance ) not meant mean its just a fact. 
3). Most on 500 thread are trying to do it cheaper and looking for suggestions where to cut costs some 
4). More on 3k thread seem to post negatives about doing it cheaper. I know my . $300 boat would be just as accepted in an anchorage here as a multi million dollar yacht I have even gotten compliments from them about my boat. And yes it would cost more for me in the Florida and carrabian cruise grounds than here 
All in all good info from most posters in both I have gotten some great info and ideas from both 
(BTW I don't drink so that saves me a couple hundred right there but that's just me)


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## newhaul

Don0190 said:


> And that number would be something included in an entertainment budget, so if you have done this while cruising and have a dollar amount post it.


I don't have the numbers to post I'm not there to see the game costs 5 bucks to stream it live to me here


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## MikeOReilly

svzephyr44 said:


> Let me take this backwards. I think that one reason this thread goes all over the place is that our assumptions of the definition of "cruising" is all over the map.


I think Roger gets closer to asking the right question. As I posted here earlier (in one of my rare appearance in this thread), the reason these threads rarely produce useful numbers is b/c people are comparing apples to orangutans. There is no general answer. It depends...

It depends on:

each person's lifestyle,
the size of boat,
the age of boat,
crew size and age,
their lifestyle choices, 
where they are cruising, 
how they are cruising, 
their schedules, 
etc, etc, etc.
To answer to the "_how much does it cost_" question you first need to specify all these things, and probably a lot more. Or to borrow from fine literature, you need to know the _Ultimate Question_ before you can understand the _Ultimate Answer_ .


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## GeorgeB

For planning purposes, the monthly diesel fuel bill numbers are pretty meaningless to me. I want to know how much marine diesel costs per gallon in various locals so I can do some real planning. For example, marine diesel pumped at the waterside is over $5 a gallon (US) in the San Francisco Bay. “Road diesel” is $4.09/gal (US). The problem with road diesel for cruising is how do you jerry jug it back to the boat and how do you store your jerry can? I want to know what it cost per gal (US) in your locale. I am especially interested in Southern California, the PNW and Mexico. What say you? How about some planning numbers we can use?


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## newhaul

Try this site and I'm sure there are others like it
Fuel Docks | Pump Outs | NWBoatinfo.com


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## christian.hess

GeorgeB said:


> For planning purposes, the monthly diesel fuel bill numbers are pretty meaningless to me. I want to know how much marine diesel costs per gallon in various locals so I can do some real planning. For example, marine diesel pumped at the waterside is over $5 a gallon (US) in the San Francisco Bay. "Road diesel" is $4.09/gal (US). The problem with road diesel for cruising is how do you jerry jug it back to the boat and how do you store your jerry can? I want to know what it cost per gal (US) in your locale. I am especially interested in Southern California, the PNW and Mexico. What say you? How about some planning numbers we can use?


diesel at the docks in souther califronia anywhere from 4-7

mexico la paz down 5-6, or you can jerry can it

guatemala 5

el salvador 4-5
costa rica 5-6
panama 4 to 8 depending on marina


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## killarney_sailor

GeorgeB said:


> For planning purposes, the monthly diesel fuel bill numbers are pretty meaningless to me. I want to know how much marine diesel costs per gallon in various locals so I can do some real planning. For example, marine diesel pumped at the waterside is over $5 a gallon (US) in the San Francisco Bay. "Road diesel" is $4.09/gal (US). The problem with road diesel for cruising is how do you jerry jug it back to the boat and how do you store your jerry can? I want to know what it cost per gal (US) in your locale. I am especially interested in Southern California, the PNW and Mexico. What say you? How about some planning numbers we can use?


Don't assume you can always buy diesel at a dock. In many places off the beaten track there are no marinas or fuel docks or may be a fishing boat dock with a fuel nozzle that does not fit into your deck plate. We have four jerry cans and a very handy folding hand cart (can comfortably take three cans on the cart - 4 is a bit unstable) that have been used numerous times. Almost anywhere you can buy fuel at the local filling station. The secret is to find a gas station not too far from the boat. Best thing is not to motor too much and then you don't use much diesel.


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## DHusk

Kilarney, any pictures of the folding cart or perhaps a manufacturer? Sounds like a handy thing to have.


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## newhaul

Home - Folding Shopping Cart Store lots to choose from


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## killarney_sailor

Not one of those, Newhaul. More like one of these TRAC Utility Folding Cart/Dolly - Trac Outdoor Products T10042, although I thing this one has steel tubes. Ours is thick aluminum and plastic so we have had no corrosion issues. Really look at the size and quality of the wheels, you will be on lots of unpaved and poorly paved surfaces.

Lee Valley Tools had a terrific one but it was around $100. We paid around $35 but cannot remember the online company. You also need to figure out where you can store such a thing. It folds nicely but is still pretty large. Also good to figure out how to use it for grocery and other shopping. We use a folding plastic box on the platform and hang several cloth shopping bags from the frame higher up.


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## svzephyr44

*A Double Whammy*

Note both the clearing in fees and the abundant difficulty with the local officials. From the cruisers network online web site. My emphasis added...



> Good day, Nell-
> 
> Sundance is currently laying San Cristobal, Galapagos, having just checked in a few days ago.
> 
> We had originally planned to arrive a week earlier. However, after coming upon the World ARC fleet once again at Contadora Island, Las Perlas, we choose to give the flotilla a head-start. (It is our desire to follow in the ARC's wake due to crowded anchorages in the San Blas, limited slip availability at Shelter Bay, having our Canal transit date bumped (twice) due to ARC transits taking precedence, and concern about limited space in South Pacific anchorages.)
> 
> Upon our morning arrival into San Cristobal, after heaving-to to await daybreak, we were surprised to see several ARC boats still in the anchorage. Before our anchor was down, one of the ARC boats yelled over to us, and, subsequently, contacted us on VHF, to offer us a warning. We were also fortunate enough to meet up for sundowners and dinner that evening to hold a discussion at length.
> 
> Turns out the ARC fleet have endured overwhelming challenges in Galapagos! The following is a brief account provided by a few participants of the rally. Evidently, each vessel was boarded individually by a group of 10 officials. Several hours were spent on each boat while they thoroughly inspected every conceivable potential concern including, but not limited to, reviewing waste management, posting signs, fumigation, food stores and management, when was the last oil change, when will be the next, how are chemicals and oil disposed of, what type of agent is used to absorb and disburse oil (products were examined), calculating whether holding tank capacities could sustain the vessel's need through the duration of their stay, etc., etc.
> 
> Divers came and inspected each boat's bottom. 19 of the approximately 39 vessels were denied entrance into the Galapagos, and were informed they must put out to sea immediately. 1 of the vessels decided to sail on to the Marquesas, with a very dejected crew. The remaining 18 vessels were required to sail 70 miles north of the Archipelago and heave-to in the open ocean. ARC representatives negotiated an agreement with Galapagos officials to have several dive operators go out to the boats well offshore and clean their bottoms. The cost was *$5,000* and took an additional 2 days.
> 
> Fortunately, our check-in process was far less eventful. Our agent, Bolivar Pesantes, arrived via water taxi to Sundance within an hour of our arrival in the harbor. (We notified him of our ETA via Satphone). When questioned about the ARC situation, he indicated that he would take care of everything, and there would be no such problems. Bolivar collected our boat documents, payment, and garbage (his request) and returned a few hours later with the Port Captain, who completed our paperwork in short order, and departed the vessel. Maximum time onboard was about 10 minutes. Bolivar indicated that only 1 other individual would need to come out to the boat, and apologized that she was unavailable until the morning. We were allowed to proceed ashore at this time.
> 
> Bolivar returned, with the inspector, at 8am. The inspector conducted a casual search, opening several lockers and drawers, reviewing our produce hammocks, rummaging through the top half of our iceboxes, and looking in our garbage. Any produce that looked less than perfect (limes with brown spots) was taken away, along with our christophine (chayote), because she did not know what it was. Note - No oranges or passionfruit, live plants, or soil is permissible. We had a whole bunch (stake) of bananas from Las Perlas which she did not like. But, after picking through them for a couple minutes, she left them behind. She explained that all garbage must be separated, the garbage container must have a lid, and black water must not be discharged. Also, she was not happy that our Panama Fumigation Certificate did not indicate which type of insecticide was utilized. Bolivar expressed that Panama is a very professional country and they would, of course, use the correct products. The whole process, relatively painless, took about half an hour.
> 
> Note - In the last couple of days, 2 vessels arrived without an Autografo. One left the next morning. The other left on the second day, calling out that he was going on straight to the Marquesas. Unfortunately, I have absolutely no idea of why, or any any details whatsoever.
> 
> Given the nature of Latin American culture, it may be possible that the ARC was targeted for any multitude of reasons. Alternatively, the tides may simply be changing for the worst, and Sundance was fortunate enough to negotiate the turbulent waters unscathed. Bolivar knows the game and is an excellent player. We may have paid a little more than the going rate for his services. However, as is always the case in the Caribbean and Latin America, a little money and a couple beers goes a long way.
> 
> Worth noting - Much is often said about the challenges of obtaining an Autografo, and that the process requires several months. In our case, we sent out 3 agent requests via email in Spanish. Bolivar was the only one that answered (4-5 days response time). (Ironic, since m/v Domino also sent out 3 email requests months ago, and Bolivar did not respond. As Bolivar does not speak virtually any English, I assume this to be the challenge.) Bolivar's response (in Spanish) indicated that he would be our agent, outlined the fees, and requested copies of passports and documentation. We sent copies of the requested documents the next morning. 4 hours later, Bolivar sent us an email saying that our Autografo was approved! That was it. No deposit. No need to obtain any faxes or file attachments. No nothing. KISS. Even simpler than our Panama Canal Transit managed to be.
> 
> For your reference, I have outlined our fee structure below. Our agent took care of everything. We did not have to go to a single office. He took our passports and had them stamped, and obtained our National Park and Galapagos passes.
> 
> $270 - Port Captain: Service of Reception & Arrival (based on GRT; $12.27 per GRT)
> 100 - Service of Inspection and Quarantine
> 31 - Service of Immigration ($15 per person, plus $1)
> 200 - National Park ($100 per person)
> 20 - Council of the Government of the Galapagos ($10 per person)
> 25 - Photocopies & Transportation of Authorities (Water Taxis)
> 20 - Collection & Transportation of Garbage
> 25 - Inspection of Casco (Hull?)
> 148 - Agency Services
> 300 - Agency Services (Autografo)
> -------
> *$1139 - Grand Total*
> 
> Whether an Autografo is prearranged or not, all fees except the $300 will be applicable if you make landfall in the Galapagos. In our case, the Autografo ensured we adhered to the law, allows us to visit San Cristobal, Santa Cruz, and Isabela, for a period not to exceed 60 days maximum. Note - Floreana is not a possibility through Bolivar. Our understanding is that other agents may be able to include this destination, at risk of damaging their relationship with the National Park officials.
> 
> Unrelated closing thought: Fascinatingly enough, while the Galapagos Islands are arid and dry, relatively speaking, than the tropical mountains of Panama, the variety, quality, and cost of produce here is vastly superior to that found on the Isthmus. Much of it is grown right here, including oranges, mandarins, limes, passionfruit, tomatoes, bananas, watermelon, basil, cilantro, guava, avocado, green beans, and more. The remainder is supplemented, at higher cost, by imports from Chile and, to a lesser degree (ironically), mainland Ecuador. I remain at a loss, after traveling throughout South and Central America, as to why Panama lacks the remarkable abundance and variety of produce present in all the other countries (excepting beautiful Belize).
> 
> Hope this helps,
> 
> Glen D. Hurd
> s/v Sundance


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## MarkofSeaLife

Galapagos has changed since i was there!
Thats very expensive!

Glad i have done it. Lolol


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## tdw

For mine, these kinds of thread are useful if only because some item of expenditure might be mentioned that the aspiring cruiser had not considered.


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## christian.hess

we were there(galapagos) in 2002 holy crap how things have changed...we actually cruised to other islands and had no issues...

what crap today

man so sorry


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## Don L

found another actual costs from cruisers who keep track of them

Expenses


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## MikeOReilly

Don0190 said:


> found another actual costs from cruisers who keep track of them
> 
> Expenses


Thanks Don. Interesting. An overall monthly average of $2,767, with a low of $957 and a high of $8,893. Looks like they a healthy middle-aged couple who cruised the Caribbean for about seven years on an older, fairly traditional, 44 foot boat. Good to know.

Of course, this is just one data point. To make this truly useful (statistically significant) you need to know how many similar cruisers with similar boat size and type, similar crew compliment, similar cruising grounds, similar lifestyles, etc... were cruising at that time. You'd then need to collect similar datasets. Only then can you start to draw any general conclusions.

... but interesting none the less. Thanks.

Actually, since you're so driven for hard data, why don't you make this your mission? I, for one, would value a statistically valid analysis.


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## guitarguy56

MikeOReilly said:


> Thanks Don. Interesting. An overall monthly average of $2,767, with a low of $957 and a high of $8,893. Looks like they a healthy middle-aged couple who cruised the Caribbean for about seven years on an older, fairly traditional, 44 foot boat. Good to know.
> 
> Of course, this is just one data point. To make this truly useful (statistically significant) you need to know how many similar cruisers with similar boat size and type, similar crew compliment, similar cruising grounds, similar lifestyles, etc... were cruising at that time. You'd then need to collect similar datasets. Only then can you start to draw any general conclusions.
> 
> ... but interesting none the less. Thanks.
> 
> Actually, since you're so driven for hard data, why don't you make this tour mission? I, for one, would value a statistically valid analysis.


Correct Mike... each boat size and requirements would have different cruising budgets...

Here is another one Retirees Sail the Caribbean for 8 Years On a $1,000-Per-Month Budget


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## Don L

guitarguy56 said:


> .
> 
> Here is another one Retirees Sail the Caribbean for 8 Years On a $1,000-Per-Month Budget


Yes. Now go find one with a cost breakdown like the ones I've posted (more than just one) so we can see what is included in the dollar amount because as we have seen what people include in their reported costs varies greatly.

I would love to be able to believe that the budget amount I had in mind 6 years ago works.


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## guitarguy56

Don0190 said:


> Yes. Now go find one with a cost breakdown like the ones I've posted (more than just one) so we can see what is included in the dollar amount because as we have seen what people include in their reported costs varies greatly.
> 
> I would love to be able to believe that the budget amount I had in mind 6 years ago works.


Don I agree... I tried getting into the budget they used but it's a link that wants to have you register on their site and I didn't have time to do that but it would be interesting how they're doing it.

Regarding this budget you posted I could see where someone with a smaller boat and an outboard would not need the huge fuel bill which incidentally drops part of the maintenance cost, having a smaller boat from 44 foot to 25-30 foot would drop significantly the slip/mooring cost per month, if you have medical that is sponsored by Medicare, VA , or other plan that would drop from that budget, other than what I see it's save a little there or spend a little more there... so as I mentioned in the above post it depends on the size of the vessel and how each plans to spend the money. Another thought is on the food costs are they including beer/alcohol in that because for those of us that do not have a need for beer/alcohol I could see that dropped by $50/week or $200/month?

We actually need someone with a vessel of the size I mentioned to do an actual budget while cruising... it's the only way to get better numbers.


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## guitarguy56

Just for giggles here... I took the May budget and put in my numbers as I have currently... the dock fee costs are what they are for me now... it may be different during a future voyage... the medical is what my wife and I pay currently a month as the rest is sponsored. So you can see that by having a smaller boat you have less costs and they are the same style living as the person whose budget they posted... compare to the April budget which is theirs.


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## bpgoll

I own my boat, too and our medical is only $440 a month with boat insurance around $150 per month. I think we would have done fine on $3000 a month if we just spent more time on the hook and didn't fly home so much.


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## outbound

This remains a very productive thread. In catching up on posts and due to recent experiences I note one of the key variables is how you cruise. Even in the sub set of east coast snow birders there seems to be further subsets.
Some go up and down from George town
Some go up and down from N.E. or mid Atlantic to eastern Caribe.
Some bring the boat down and use a mooring with management contract and fly up and down keeping a residence on land or pay for land storage and use a northern land rental up north during hurricane season.
With each land costs go up and boat costs go down or vice a versa. 
With each boat costs vary depending on miles traveled. 
The thread title included the word cruising. To me cruising means traveling not stationary live aboard in a different place. It would be helpful in understanding people's posts if they defined miles traveled and cruising ground.


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## Bene505

outbound said:


> To me cruising means traveling not stationary live aboard in a different place. It would be helpful in understanding people's posts if they defined miles traveled and cruising ground.


Maybe the title ought to be "Cruising on $1,500/month and $1/mile".

Regards,
Brad


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## JonEisberg

outbound said:


> The thread title included the word cruising. To me cruising means traveling not stationary live aboard in a different place. It would be helpful in understanding people's posts if they defined miles traveled and cruising ground.


Agree completely, and that's the primary reason why I found some of the stuff in the "_Voyaging_ on $500/month" thread at least verging on the semi-delusional... 

Going places, actually using the boat full-time, costs money... In my observation, one of the biggest factors that people embarking on full time "voyaging" for the first time tend to underestimate, is the greatly increased wear and tear on a boat suddenly being used all the time, and the amount of time (and consequently, money) spent "fixing their boats in exotic locations"... I think many people grossly underestimate the costs of maintenance, or tend to attempt to defer them as long as possible. (Which of course can lead to bigger problems, and wind up costing more, in the long run) It can wear a lot of folks down pretty quickly, and I think it's definitely one of the primary reason why many quit the fulltime cruising life sooner, rather than later... Also, one of the most compelling arguments for avoiding complexity, and keeping things as simple as possible - within reason, of course...

Pretty good post from SAILFEED, regarding the maintenance costs on a couple out there on a Stevens 47... To someone sailing a modest boat like mine, these numbers certainly give pause to the notion of 'stepping up' to a comparable boat, to say the least... 

Cruising costs, routine maintenance, and the 10% (15%, 20%) rule | Sailfeed

The cost of cruising: Totem?s maintenance list | Sailfeed


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## Group9

bpgoll said:


> I own my boat, too and our medical is only $440 a month with boat insurance around $150 per month. I think we would have done fine on $3000 a month if we just spent more time on the hook and didn't fly home so much.


My medical is almost exactly the same and I had the take on my cruise. Marinas and airlines at least doubled our spending. We averaged a $1000 a month, just on airfare.


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## Ashley Gracile

what about exchange rate fluctuations


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## findrichard

This has been a very interesting thread. I am thinking it might be helpful to contact the gentleman who posts on here who just recently completed a 3 year circumnavigation with his wife and see if he kept an expense account for his voyage. Sorry I don't remember his screen name but it shouldn't be hard to find.


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## Sal Paradise

guitarguy56 said:


> Correct Mike... each boat size and requirements would have different cruising budgets...
> 
> Here is another one Retirees Sail the Caribbean for 8 Years On a $1,000-Per-Month Budget


This jumped out at me. WTH? Basically saving money by tresspassing. They are lucky the management didn't catch on.

"_We especially enjoyed being anchored off fancy resorts that charged $500 a night. We paid zero and had a much better view, without noisy neighbors. During the day we would go ashore to these resorts, using our dinghy, and wander the grounds and enjoy the amenities for free."_


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## Group9

Sal Paradise said:


> This jumped out at me. WTH? Basically saving money by tresspassing. They are lucky the management didn't catch on.
> 
> "_We especially enjoyed being anchored off fancy resorts that charged $500 a night. We paid zero and had a much better view, without noisy neighbors. During the day we would go ashore to these resorts, using our dinghy, and wander the grounds and enjoy the amenities for free."_


You're right. I don't think that is the money saving technique we want to be promoting on a cruising website.

That's kind of in line with tying up at marinas, and leaving early in the morning before the dockmaster comes around to collect the fees.


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## Minnewaska

Group9 said:


> ......That's kind of in line with tying up at marinas, and leaving early in the morning before the dockmaster comes around to collect the fees.


I agree. I hired a delivery skipper that was very proud of doing this to save me money on his trip. The closer to home he got, the more nervous I got. He's a great guy, by the way, but thought he was doing me a favor. I would have been mortified if anyone ever associated the dine and dash with our boat.

His more common technique was to grab an unused mooring at sunset and leave at dawn.

I grabbed a mooring once and couldn't find anyone to pay. All moorings had a bottle attached to put your payment, except mine. I assume it fell off. I actually tied a gatorade bottle to the mooring with the fee in it, before I left in the morning. I realized someone could have easily stolen it, but I felt better paying my tab.


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## MarkofSeaLife

Honesty pays off, Minnewaska.


Somewhere down the track it pays off, or maybe never, who cares, it feels correct to be honest.


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## guitarguy56

Agree... anchoring like they have in that site and taking advantage is not what I or others should be doing and should have carefully read that... I prefer to do things legally and amicably in all my pursuits and so should others. But that said we do not know the entire story and should read the entire background (needs registering to that site) to fully understand the meaning of what they are saying by enjoying the 'amenities for free' sort a the 'wedding crashers' sort of crowds.


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## Sal Paradise

Let's face it, we have all grabbed a dock or mooring sometime that wasn't ours,for a moment - life is too short to chase down every owner or to get mad. At least I know I have. The decent thing is to be ready to cheerfully move on the moment the owner gets there and no nasty words should be said by anyone. 


But "enjoying the amenities" of a resort for free could be using the laundry, bathrooms, showers or beach chairs, free buffet - who knows?


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## Bene505

Sal Paradise said:


> But "enjoying the amenities" of a resort for free could be using the laundry, bathrooms, showers or beach chairs, free buffet - who knows?


And this is in the $3,000/month thread!

Regards,
Brad


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## MarkofSeaLife

Sal Paradise said:


> Let's face it, we have all grabbed a dock or mooring sometime that wasn't ours,for a moment


I don't think I have.

I don't park in Handicapped spots either, even if I am just dropping someone off.

Nor do I double park.

Maybe I am just a looser to be vilified, but the rules of life, my life, are fine by me. If its not my toy I don't play with it


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## outbound

Called in to be assigned mooring. Told wherever is free in outer four rows and to call in when . Joined by another boat two rows over while waiting for launch to come get money. Told launch about other new boat figuring I'd save him a another trip in and out and they just didn't have a chance to get on the horn. He went there next and got paid. I got dirty looks and a moon after he left and generator noise all night. Think good deeds rarely go unpunished but still sleep well when you always try to do the right thing.


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## Minnewaska

Sal Paradise said:


> Let's face it, we have all grabbed a dock or mooring sometime that wasn't ours,for a moment ......


If by moment, you mean to drop someone off or pick up, then I'm sure we have. But no longer than a moment. I've never squatted intentionally on another's property for the night or even to go for lunch and ducked the responsibility. I have made effort to pay for a public mooring where there was absolutely no one around and I had to leave. I have felt badly for that, but truly tried to find someone to pay. I have never stayed the night on a private mooring/dock, without permission.


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## Sal Paradise

Minnewaska said:


> If by moment, you mean to drop someone off or pick up, then I'm sure we have. But no longer than a moment. I've never squatted intentionally on another's property for the night or even to go for lunch and ducked the responsibility. I have made effort to pay for a public mooring where there was absolutely no one around and I had to leave. I have felt badly for that, but truly tried to find someone to pay. I have never stayed the night on a private mooring/dock, without permission.


That's what I mean. Pick up or drop off, or maybe an emergency or breakdown. Picked up a passenger at a fuel dock. Or docked at a public dock and walked around. I once moored at the wrong ball, but had paid. Anyway, I don't really want to make a major point there, just an offhand comment meant to contrast normal getting around with literally squatting at a resort hotel as a lifestyle. I have never used someone's dingy davit to raise my mast. 

So, on my original point about the article - _"We especially enjoyed being anchored off fancy resorts that charged $500 a night. We paid zero and had a much better view, without noisy neighbors. During the day we would go ashore to these resorts, using our dinghy, and wander the grounds and enjoy the amenities for free."_

That struck me as really incredibly shady to live a life where you pull up at a resort hotel and use their amenities without at least going to the desk and offering to pay and getting permission. I can't imagine my wife and I doing that. It's stealing.

I mean , I just couldn't physically do it. My conscience would really bother me way to much.


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## Don L

meanwhile the $3000/mo cruiser budget allows one to not resort to stealing 



just to get back on thread maybe


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## outbound

Finding another dynamic is where you haul and get work done you can't or are not comfortable doing yourself. I'm still in the learning stage so learning by the saying "watch one, do one, teach one" as the best way to learn. Do it stateside in NE expensive but general done right. Do it south may be cheaper but watch every little thing. Do it in Caribbean highly variable and don't do anything unless you have spoken with friends/cruisers who have had exactly the same work done well and on time by that yard.


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## cranki

I have used unused mooring balls for stopping for a few hours for lunch and a swim and I have used them for overnight stays. I don't see it as a huge moral dilemma but then again perhaps I am morally bankrupt. I have never tried to tie up at a dock or a mooring for which fees are charged without paying though.


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## aeventyr60

Sal Paradise said:


> That's what I mean. Pick up or drop off, or maybe an emergency or breakdown. Picked up a passenger at a fuel dock. Or docked at a public dock and walked around. I once moored at the wrong ball, but had paid. Anyway, I don't really want to make a major point there, just an offhand comment meant to contrast normal getting around with literally squatting at a resort hotel as a lifestyle. I have never used someone's dingy davit to raise my mast.
> 
> So, on my original point about the article - _"We especially enjoyed being anchored off fancy resorts that charged $500 a night. We paid zero and had a much better view, without noisy neighbors. During the day we would go ashore to these resorts, using our dinghy, and wander the grounds and enjoy the amenities for free."_
> 
> That struck me as really incredibly shady to live a life where you pull up at a resort hotel and use their amenities without at least going to the desk and offering to pay and getting permission. I can't imagine my wife and I doing that. It's stealing.
> 
> I mean , I just couldn't physically do it. My conscience would really bother me way to much.


One of our favorite spots was in Los Hadas Mexico, the hotel where the movie "10" was filmed. Moorings were about 6 bucks a night and that included use of all the hotel amenities. Beautiful pool with white towels, drinks poolside and a reasonable BBQ evening and dancing. Most places we've come across are welcoming to yachties, have a drink, meal and the place is yours.


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## Sal Paradise

"One of our favorite spots was in Los Hadas Mexico, the hotel where the movie "10" was filmed. Moorings were about 6 bucks a night and that included use of all the hotel amenities. Beautiful pool with white towels, drinks poolside and a reasonable BBQ evening and dancing. Most places we've come across are welcoming to yachties, have a drink, meal and the place is yours". - aeventyr60

That sound so cool. One of the skills of any kind of traveling, is the ability to find friendly places to stop. I am probably violating some kind of forum rule but I will say it anyway - it's a *"good principle"* to basically to welcome strangers and to share what you have. No doubt there is a conflict between that and the mentality of always paying/always charging for everything and for too strenuously enforcing private property rights. Some will say that we have to survive and so pay us for everything, even a glass of water, but personally I like to see people being generous and friendly. Many waterfront owners who offer free hospitality end up doing very well financially as a result. Whether that is karma. or pay it forward, *or some golden rule *who cares, but it makes life more fun and we all know it when we see it and I like to patronize those places with our dollars when we can.


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## Minnewaska

It's also christian to not take others things, but wait to be invited.


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## Group9

Don0190 said:


> meanwhile the $3000/mo cruiser budget allows one to not resort to stealing
> 
> just to get back on thread maybe


I guess it depends on your lifestyle. I know lots of people who wouldn't even be funded for one fuel fill up on $3000 (I went salt water fishing on a giant twin diesel sport fisherman about 60 feet long last year and when we done, I was told my part of the fuel bill was $600. I paid it and said, "Please don't ever let me go fishing with you again".)


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## Minnewaska

Group9 said:


> .......I was told my part of the fuel bill was $600. I paid it and said, "Please don't ever let me go fishing with you again".)


That is a fairly common stinkpotter expectation that their guests will pay for fuel for the privilege of spending time on their boat. I've had family (blacksheep stinkpotters) that I know feel that way.

It may be why I never expect anything whatsoever from a guest.


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## Group9

Minnewaska said:


> That is a fairly common stinkpotter expectation that their guests will pay for fuel for the privilege of spending time on their boat. I've had family (blacksheep stinkpotters) that I know feel that way.
> 
> It may be why I never expect anything whatsoever from a guest.


My wife and I talked about that, too. There is no way to count how many people I have had out on my sailboats and my small center console powerboats, and I have never once, asked a guest I invited to contribute anything (hence the word "guest" and "invited").

I don't think he could afford to take it out unless he rounded up a bunch of folks to go with him like that.


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## Don L

When I got the idea to look into being a cruiser I was standing on a dock with my wife looking at the boats and it went like this"

"That's what we need, a boat so we can take our home with us while we travel"
"I don't think we could afford the fuel to travel very far"
"Well we will need a sailboat then"

And that's how we got into sailing!


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## Faster

Group9 said:


> My wife and I talked about that, too. There is no way to count how many people I have had out on my sailboats and my small center console powerboats, and I have never once, asked a guest I invited to contribute anything (hence the word "guest" and "invited").......


This is a different discussion, that has taken place elsewhere already.. but we've been guests and we've had guests on numerous occasions. We've never asked for anything from them, nor have be been asked. However when I can see added expense due to our presence (clearing fees that wouldn't have been incurred if we weren't there and they'd stayed put, eg, or extra food/drink) esp if they are normally frugal/limited budget cruisers I feel obligated to leave some funds or gifts behind to help out and as a token of our appreciation - and feel better for having done so. Usually despite some protestations these are graciously accepted.

But oddly I feel somewhat embarrassed when the situation is reversed and our guests do the same for us... go figure.


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## MarkofSeaLife

Minnewaska said:


> It's also christian to not take others things, but wait to be invited.


Even if one isn't a God-Squady, many think those commandments are pretty good rules for life.

I must re-read them, but i don't think it says "Thou shalt not steal unless no one is looking".


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## MikeOReilly

I found the best expression of the _Golden Rule_ on the t-shirt of a rough looking teenager.

On the front: _"Do unto others..."_
On the back _"...then split!"_ 

Not my philosophy of course.


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## smurphny

There are so many variables in the "cost of cruising" discussions that it makes little sense to come up with some set number of dollars. The very large variables are : dockage vs anchoring, eating out or aboard, travel via airlines back home vs staying aboard, marina labor or DIY, and the general snootiness premium of wherever you choose to visit. The cost can be $1000 or $5000+. It's all dependent upon your personal budget. I find that being on the boat cruising is no more expensive than being at home because I don't shift into "vacation" mode when on the boat but live essentially the same way I do when home. Unless you do not own a boat when living ashore, most of the boat expenses still exist. Some boat expenses when cruising are offset by the suspension of house expenses like tel., elec., heat, internet, tv. Fuel can go in the boat or in the oil tank!


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## findrichard

But back on topic, it might be best to develop a cruising budget based on personal experience. Cruse for a week and see what it costs. Then cruse for a month and see what it costs. Then cruse for a few months and see what it costs. Then adjust your lifestyle to fit your available funds and cash flow. It is not hard to determine costs and frequency of boat-gear replacement and repair. Owners manuals, shop manuals, repair specialists have most of this information. Then don't forget the emergency fund account because major repairs come suddenly and cannot always be paid for with payments spread over time. A secondary benefit of going through this exercise is it can help you determine how suited you are for extended cursing. There is always a glut of boats for sale cheep at the virgin islands because many have jumped into the cruising lifestyle, beat their way against the trade winds all the way to the virgin islands and then decided the lifestyle was not for them. Had they simply turned around and enjoyed the easy downwind sail back to the US they may be still sailing and enjoying their boats today. A cruse becomes a curse when you turn the "ru" around to a "ur".


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## Group9

I'll make a plug for a book I'm reading right now. _ The Capable Cruiser_, by Lin and Larry Pardey, (in the newest addition I have), has a lot of stuff about what people are actually spending on cruises based on some surveys they did on their last cruise with other cruisers.


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## Faster

Folks I cleaned up that recent 'religion' thread drift.. no disrespect to either viewpoint, but that was not even vaguely on topic anymore.

Carry on with the big spending!!


----------



## findrichard

Faster, I thought you might do that, after all the truth has been suppressed for thousands of years. Why not start a theological thread and see if there is any interest among the sailing community?


----------



## Donna_F

findrichard said:


> Faster, I thought you might do that, after all the truth has been suppressed for thousands of years. Why not start a theological thread and see if there is any interest among the sailing community?


No one is suppressing anything. You can discuss religion all you want in the Off Topic forum section that was created for it.


----------



## findrichard

Thank you for moving my posts to the off-topic forum.


----------



## Don L

Faster said:


> Carry on with the big spending!!


Big spending 

For the most part based on all the cruiser blogs I have read with cost info the $3k/mo is frugal spending!


----------



## findrichard

I bet some engineer type could figure out a boat expense budget based on dollar per foot per day in use and then index it to inflation.


----------



## Faster

findrichard said:


> Thank you for moving my posts to the off-topic forum.


FR... I didn't move anything - took them out of view. If you want to start a thread/discussion on that topic feel free to take it to the PRWG section of "Off Topic".


----------



## outbound

BWS did an article about satphones this month. My only experience to date is with Globalstar used briefly for gribs. Wonder if anyone has real time experience of the three main players and true expense over a year of snow birding on east coast. Also any recommendations would be appreciated. Tx.


----------



## Don L

outbound said:


> BWS did an article about satphones this month. My only experience to date is with Globalstar used briefly for gribs. Wonder if anyone has real time experience of the three main players and true expense over a year of snow birding on east coast. Also any recommendations would be appreciated. Tx.


I would like to read the responses, but I would think you would get better response as a new thread instead of just from people following this one.


----------



## killarney_sailor

Don0190 said:


> Big spending
> 
> For the most part based on all the cruiser blogs I have read with cost info the $3k/mo is frugal spending!


As has been discussed numerous times, cruising means one thing to some people and something else to someone else, but if I think of all the people we have met in the last few years from the BVI to Vanuatu, the budgets for most people, including ourselves, is substantially less than $3000 a month. If I had to pick a median I would guess more like $1800, but these are handy people rarely going near a marina unless there is no choice (most of South Africa for example) Boats are generally from 37' to 50'.


----------



## findrichard

Thanks Killarney. Please correct my facts and assumptions in this calculation: A 45 foot boat with crew of two on a 3 year circumnavigation averaged about $1,800 a month. 

$1,800/45 ft. = $40 per foot per year. $40/365 days = $1.33 per day per foot for a crew of 2. I am assuming this includes food costs which doesn't change with the size of the boat but that should be easy enough to extrapolate. So for example, my wife and I am planning a 3 month cruse up the east coast of the US in a 35 foot sailboat:

90 days X 35 feet X $1.33 = $4,189 add a little more for food & fun and toss the dock lines.

I am sure this idea can be refined with more information, but this is based on actual and recent costs covering all circumstances for an extended period of time. It will be interesting and helpful to know what costs will be necessary to get the boat ready for another 3 year circumnavigation (not implying you are planning such an event). It would also be helpful to know what percentage of the $1,800 per month figure was consumed by the boat and what percent by governmental requirements.


----------



## MikeOReilly

findrichard said:


> Thanks Killarney. Please correct my facts and assumptions in this calculation: A 45 foot boat with crew of two on a 3 year circumnavigation averaged about $1,800 a month.
> 
> $1,800/45 ft. = $40 per foot per year. $40/365 days = $1.33 per day per foot for a crew of 2. I am assuming this includes food costs which doesn't change with the size of the boat but that should be easy enough to extrapolate. So for example, my wife and I am planning a 3 month cruse up the east coast of the US in a 35 foot sailboat:
> 
> 90 days X 35 feet X $1.33 = $4,189 add a little more for food & fun and toss the dock lines.


Ah, the quest for the _ultimate answer._.. I think there are many more variables that you need to consider before you can come up with an equation that can be widely applied (lifestyle, cruising location, weather, entertainment needs, diet, boat age, and probably a bunch more). But I get where you're going.

One immediate problem I see with your equation is that it assumes a linear relationship of _costs_ to _boat length_. Everything I've read (and experienced to a lesser degree) suggests the costs rise _exponentially_ with increased boat length. What that exponent is will be debatable, but if this is true, your equation requires an exponential factor.


----------



## Group9

outbound said:


> BWS did an article about satphones this month. My only experience to date is with Globalstar used briefly for gribs. Wonder if anyone has real time experience of the three main players and true expense over a year of snow birding on east coast. Also any recommendations would be appreciated. Tx.


I have an Iridium. The biggest cost is, of course, buying the phone. I paid around $1300 for mine in 2010. The airtime costs are $1.50 a minute and I paid for $500 worth to start. I still haven't used all of that (I got the rollover minutes plan).

But, I didn't use mine to get on the internet every day, or chat for hours. Mine was just to check in with family, and for safety (if I sunk and was floating in the ocean some where, I thought it would be nice to start calling people who owed me favors and telling them to come get my ass).


----------



## Don L

findrichard said:


> Thanks Killarney. Please correct my facts and assumptions in this calculation: A 45 foot boat with crew of two on a 3 year circumnavigation averaged about $1,800 a month.
> 
> $1,800/45 ft. = $40 per foot per year. $40/365 days = $1.33 per day per foot for a crew of 2. I am assuming this includes food costs which doesn't change with the size of the boat but that should be easy enough to extrapolate. So for example, my wife and I am planning a 3 month cruse up the east coast of the US in a 35 foot sailboat:
> 
> 90 days X 35 feet X $1.33 = $4,189 add a little more for food & fun and toss the dock lines.
> 
> I am sure this idea can be refined with more information, but this is based on actual and recent costs covering all circumstances for an extended period of time. It will be interesting and helpful to know what costs will be necessary to get the boat ready for another 3 year circumnavigation (not implying you are planning such an event). It would also be helpful to know what percentage of the $1,800 per month figure was consumed by the boat and what percent by governmental requirements.


I'm just going to say NO!


----------



## Faster

I think the only 'linear w/ boat length' factor is moorage rates - and even that, in some places, may not hold true.


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## findrichard

Oh well, it was a fun exercise anyway. I'll plan $2,000 per month cash flow anyway.


----------



## killarney_sailor

findrichard said:


> Thanks Killarney. Please correct my facts and assumptions in this calculation: A 45 foot boat with crew of two on a 3 year circumnavigation averaged about $1,800 a month.
> 
> $1,800/45 ft. = $40 per foot per year. $40/365 days = $1.33 per day per foot for a crew of 2. I am assuming this includes food costs which doesn't change with the size of the boat but that should be easy enough to extrapolate. So for example, my wife and I am planning a 3 month cruse up the east coast of the US in a 35 foot sailboat:
> 
> 90 days X 35 feet X $1.33 = $4,189 add a little more for food & fun and toss the dock lines.
> 
> I am sure this idea can be refined with more information, but this is based on actual and recent costs covering all circumstances for an extended period of time. It will be interesting and helpful to know what costs will be necessary to get the boat ready for another 3 year circumnavigation (not implying you are planning such an event). It would also be helpful to know what percentage of the $1,800 per month figure was consumed by the boat and what percent by governmental requirements.


I think your assumptions are just way out of line in many respects. Just a couple of examples.

There are 'economies of scale' involved so it is cheaper to plan for say 36 months than for 3 months. Lets say you need new sails for either cruise. The monthly cost is much lower for a longer cruise.
If you are cruising for 3 months on the US coast the monthly cost will be pretty much constant. You will have some marina costs, access to restaurants pretty much everywhere, predictable US booze costs etc. When you are doing a world cruise there is more wear and tear on the boat (paid for in chunks when you get somewhere with an infrastructure or where you can buy parts or jugs of oil. On the other hand there are times when you are not spending much at all. From South Africa to Grenada (basically two months, you might have spent $400 in total, not including our boat insurance)

Not sure what you mean by governmental requirements? Is this just entry/exit costs? Varies wildly from place to place. In Panama (not including the canal costs) it was $700+. In Martinique it was free.

As for what we need to spend after 30,000 miles, right now I can think of:

new main and #2 - $7000ish
bottom paint (last done in Australia), the cost of the paint, sandpaper
finding and fixing minor leaks in a couple of water tanks - lots of work to get at them, but little cost
 several minor fixes - probably $1000, e.g. bearing kit for the Monitor ($150)

There are other things we will likely do, like rechroming winches but that is more because the boat is over 30 years old. Also, deciding what to do with all the teak on deck.


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## findrichard

Wow, refit costs are much less than I would have thought. That is encouraging. I have always thought sails and running rigging were only good for about 5 years of constant use and standing rigging was ready for replacement every 10 years of constant use.


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## christian.hess

many boats still have useable original or second set sails that are 20, even 30 years old...I have yet to buy a NEW sail for any of the 8 or so boats I have had yet...of those 8 I have done serious cruising on 3....all with old perfectly useable sails

Only on 1 of those boats did I do a complete new re rerig...only standing rig btw, on those other boats just a new halyard or sheet here and there...


----------



## christian.hess

killarney_sailor said:


> I think your assumptions are just way out of line in many respects. Just a couple of examples.
> 
> There are 'economies of scale' involved so it is cheaper to plan for say 36 months than for 3 months. Lets say you need new sails for either cruise. The monthly cost is much lower for a longer cruise.
> If you are cruising for 3 months on the US coast the monthly cost will be pretty much constant. You will have some marina costs, access to restaurants pretty much everywhere, predictable US booze costs etc. When you are doing a world cruise there is more wear and tear on the boat (paid for in chunks when you get somewhere with an infrastructure or where you can buy parts or jugs of oil. On the other hand there are times when you are not spending much at all. From South Africa to Grenada (basically two months, you might have spent $400 in total, not including our boat insurance)
> 
> Not sure what you mean by governmental requirements? Is this just entry/exit costs? Varies wildly from place to place. In Panama (not including the canal costs) it was $700+. In Martinique it was free.
> 
> As for what we need to spend after 30,000 miles, right now I can think of:
> 
> new main and #2 - $7000ish
> bottom paint (last done in Australia), the cost of the paint, sandpaper
> finding and fixing minor leaks in a couple of water tanks - lots of work to get at them, but little cost
> several minor fixes - probably $1000, e.g. bearing kit for the Monitor ($150)
> 
> There are other things we will likely do, like rechroming winches but that is more because the boat is over 30 years old. Also, deciding what to do with all the teak on deck.


killarney when were you in panama this time around?

its $700 now for a us flagged vessel? how many months till renew time?

man has stuff changed in 10 years


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## KuparukGypsy

Group9 said:


> .......
> 
> But, I didn't use mine to get on the internet every day, or chat for hours. Mine was just to check in with family, and for safety (if I sunk and was floating in the ocean some where, I thought it would be nice to start calling people who owed me favors and telling them to come get my ass).


Just make sure you're not calling someone who owes you a lot of money. "Who is this??? I can't hear you!! Who??? Say what????"


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## outbound

Are the rules the same with big difference under/over 50' true LOA now the new canal is open?


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## killarney_sailor

findrichard said:


> Wow, refit costs are much less than I would have thought. That is encouraging. I have always thought sails and running rigging were only good for about 5 years of constant use and standing rigging was ready for replacement every 10 years of constant use.


You don't sail around the world and then refit. You take advantage of opportunities when you see them. For example, we replaced our wire/rope main halyards in South Africa because the local rope manufacturer (Southern Ropes) had a terrific price on Dyneema.

I think from your questions you are looking for really clear, exact answers for things like budgeting. It does not work that way. We are all different and and our boats are all different. If you have an older diesel (ours is 1990 and 4000 hours) it can be working just fine one day and need a rebuild the next - or it might be fine for five more years - how do you build things like that into the budget. We travelled fairly cheaply (probably $1500 a month) but we have a good nest-egg available if we have a costly repair or want to head off for a couple of weeks in New Zealand or South Africa. Everyone's mileage will vary.


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## killarney_sailor

Panama answers:
We were there in 2010 so things may have changed. To be clear, there are two gets of costs: the Canal and the country.
Canal - You can check online to see the charges. What can really boost these are the extra things you can spend money on, like using an agent, hiring line handlers, lines and fenders. These can easily cost as much as what the canal charges. We did everything DIY and our total costs (including buying a cell phone and time) were about $15 beyond the canal fee.
They do measure your boat and if there is any way to get under 50 feet (counting everything that sticks out) it is well worth the effort. Our 45 footer measured 48.5 because of the anchor roller and Monitor vane (with the blade down for the measure; with it up it would have been more and very close to 50). We had friends with a 44' cat who removed their sprit. Removing davits would be a great idea if you are close.

- Country: It is not one charge, but they hit you for everything and at every opportunity. There are officials for immigration, health, port captains, biosecurity (I know I am missing some). After we did the canal we went to fuel up at the marina in Balboa and three more officials showed up. It was $30 for this and $75 for that. They all went out of their way to say how it could be more but they were being nice to you. I loved the Latin American countries we visited but the officials are a PITA.


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## christian.hess

so what was it for the boat and you and your crew?

back in 2000 it was about 150 for boat and another 100 per crew or so...

Im not talking canal...just entering panama

interested cause Im planning to go there again sometime this year


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## killarney_sailor

That was for boat and two of us. We entered in the San Blas and then went to Colon. Went back to the office in the San Blas to check out because you have to check in and out in each district. The port captain wrote something on our entry permit and signed an stamped it - no charge. When we got to Colon we were fined for not having the proper exit permit from San Blas. Turns out the fine was less than the cost of the exit permit (fine was $25 and permit was $30). Later on we got in trouble because we did not have 'mariners' visas'. No one when we checked in in the San Blas or in Colon mentioned this but it became a big issue in Balboa. Don't know if there is a way around this, but it just goes to show that not everyone gets the same treatment in the same ports at (almost) the same time.


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## christian.hess

well thats 100 percent true

we went up the pacific from perlas...simple enough back then, in fact pretty lax as I stayed with the boat even overtsayed my visa and crew left for the states and came back a year later...we left with same boat...

it was not expensive at the time and the canal all said and done after refund of deposit was around 800 for a 30 footer

heard that went way up a few years ago too

bummer
anywhoo


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## killarney_sailor

christian.hess said:


> well thats 100 percent true
> 
> we went up the pacific from perlas...simple enough back then, in fact pretty lax as I stayed with the boat even overtsayed my visa and crew left for the states and came back a year later...we left with same boat...
> 
> it was not expensive at the time and the canal all said and done after refund of deposit was around 800 for a 30 footer
> 
> heard that went way up a few years ago too
> 
> bummer
> anywhoo


Our cost for the canal was not much more than that. The cost increase for >50' was huge; not so bad below.but still an increase.


----------



## Don L

Don0190 said:


> Determining a cruising budget and trying to find out if it will work seems like one of the most important parts of cruising, yet is one of the hardest to find any answers on. Before I got into sailing I spent 2 years researching the cost issues and in the end kind of just gave up and placed myself on a path to cruising anyway.
> 
> The question frequently becomes all jammed up with "it depends" and "it costs whatever you can afford to spend" answers. Which are true, but of little value for planning. Planning becomes even more important for those not so young when the decision to stop working and go cruising equals an end to a career and little chance of returning to work at anywhere near the level they were when they sailed off. The goal becomes balancing leaving while young enough to get the most of of cruising, while working long enough to not run out of money.
> 
> But I'm becoming more and more job burnt out and more and more caught in the dream, so find myself looking for the answer. To do it I spend lots of time reading though blogs looking for what people are spending and comparing it to what they are doing. I read things like the "Interview with a Cruiser Project", waste my time on the various forums, and just plain taking a guess based on what it costs me to live on land and maintain my boat now and have a budget in mind.
> 
> The budget I'm currently planning for is $3000/mo, which has to cover basically everything. Now this isn't a down and dirty budget, and it isn't a live high budget. But it is expected to be a comfortable budget that allows sightseeing and not eating out of a can budget. And as an average amount is one that I could cruise on till I no longer an able (that $3000/mo, $36,000/yr budget becomes $52,500 when I'm 75 at 2% inflation).
> 
> If you are in the cruise for $500/mo group this isn't a thread for you. But if you are in a similar position for cruising on $3000/mo I would love to see comments on what you expect this to mean far as your cruising plans.


Just as poke as to what this thread was about before it went off the rails.


----------



## Group9

This subject really is only tangentially about cruising. It's more about who a particular person is, and what their necessary lifestyle is. After reading so many of these posts, it really starts to dawn on you, that just as many people have very different opinions on what level lifestyle constitutes minimum, adequate, and luxurious on land, many people have very different opinions on what constitutes these lifestyles while cruising.

I again think about how I lived in college and when first starting out, on very little money, and then how I lived when more money became available. It's easy to get the (erroneous, in my opinion) idea that you have to have a certain level of increasing money to remain happy throughout life.

I really want to get back to the basics and what made me happy when I didn't have any money. I've taken a few cruise ship vacations, and there wasn't one single port we went to that I didn't wish I was on a sailboat, any sailboat, and anchored there, instead of cruising there in the lap of luxury.

My last cruising partner didn't see it that way, and we spent an obscene amount of money on marinas and air fare going back home to vistit, in the year we cruised that still pisses me off (we could have stayed twice or three times as long if we had spent more time on the hook, and less time flying back for unnecessary trips) My wife and I just flew to Key West a couple of months ago for a week, and I pointed out to her that for what it cost us in air fare and hotel rooms, we could have spent a couple of months there on our boat. She is like a lot of people. She wants to go, but is really scared for us to cut the lines and go, and comes up with one hurdle after another that must be jumped before we can go. 

You either want the cruising lifestyle, or you don't. And, if you want it, you will find a way to make it work on the money you have. I think that has been proven over and over again by the people who have done it.


----------



## Don L

Group9 said:


> I really want to get back to the basics and what made me happy when I didn't have any money. /QUOTE]
> 
> So quit your job (if you have one) and give all your money and stuff away.
> 
> What is stopping you?


----------



## Group9

Don0190 said:


> Group9 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I really want to get back to the basics and what made me happy when I didn't have any money. /QUOTE]
> 
> So quit your job (if you have one) and give all your money and stuff away.
> 
> What is stopping you?
> 
> 
> 
> Too many people who depend on me for a living right now who I don't want to hurt. I'm trying to change that.
Click to expand...


----------



## MikeOReilly

This is not a large enough sample size, but I've been cruising the Great Lakes for 44 days now. I've have two engine problems that have demanded mechanic help and dock time. I've spent some time visiting towns and restaurants, but mostly anchored and enjoyed the life. With all this, and considering that we're passing through some of the most expensive cruising zones, I can't imagine how I would spend $3000 per month. I think $1200 is pushing it. 


Why go fast, when you can go slow


----------



## Don L

thread killed again by a "low end" post, of course 44 days definitely isn't any real data to use as a benchmark

The real difference between the $1500/mo and the $3000/mo cruiser is that in the $3000/mo cruisers budget there isn't a bunch of "it depends","not counting", and "the budget doesn't include" items.


----------



## jerryrlitton

Don0190 said:


> thread killed again by a "low end" post, of course 44 days definitely isn't any real data to use as a benchmark
> 
> The real difference between the $1500/mo and the $3000/mo cruiser is that in the $3000/mo cruisers budget there isn't a bunch of "it depends","not counting", and "the budget doesn't include" items.


I don't think Mike was trying to be a "benchmark". He was just relating his experience concerning this thread. Between you and I there will always be people who will do just fine on 500 USD a month and others who will complain and cannot make do with 15,000. You met them, I met them, we all met them. What do you consider a proper "benchmark" anyway? It is all a matter of perspective and we all have different perspectives.

Jerry


----------



## Don L

jerryrlitton;2127993 What do you consider a proper "benchmark" anyway?[/QUOTE said:


> A couple of years worth of itemized expenses while cruising, with no money left out for "it depends", "budget doesn't include x".
> 
> The lowest once I have ever come across that meets this benchmark ended up around $1500/mo.
> 
> PS - I bet age is a factor, I bet there are less older low end cruisers. You can find lots of camping on a boat stories from people when they were in their 20s.


----------



## aeventyr60

So Don0190, what keeps you from getting out and cruising on your 3000 a month? Your miserable in your job? Go. I don't think the 3000 will be enough for you anyway. Maybe time to walk the talk.? Plenty of folks doing it on all kinds of budgets.


----------



## jerryrlitton

I think both of these threads are saying pretty much the same thing. There is no magic amount of monthly income to cover all of the variables. (But of course some amounts are more magic than others) I think most of the examples of both of the threads are gentle kicks in the butt to individuals who are waiting for some magic number to aspire to, now they can tell themselves "now, I reached it, now I may go". A little shot of confidence if you will. I can relate to that. As you know I am in Nigeria, not exactly a garden spot however I can see retirement right around the corner. I want it to come. I am done. It is there, attainable but some of us are doing the howmuchwillineedtocoverthebases dance. Just a touch nervous. But if we can see him doing it (retire) her doing it, that may be all of the kick in the butt we need. I figure June of 15 I will be done with contract flying. I will be 57, nobody knows how many breaths we have left. I will keep you posted. Phuket, Krabbi, Ko Jun here I come....in the meantime a cup of coffee and time to go flying. 
Jerry


----------



## Omatako

A cruising budget is easy to establish.

It's $300 in January - still got lots of stuff left after Xmas
It's $55 in February, that's how much fuel it took for the month's sailing to and around that island group.
It's $3000 in March - the supermarkets and diesel are really inexpensive here so we've stocked up on all our supplies.
It's $0 in April - see March above.
It's $350 in May - see March above and wife's birthday with a dinner on the town + gift.
It's $3800 in June - the genoa started falling apart, needed replacing
July, August, September - $0 - spent the time lazing around the Tuamotus fishing, diving, swimming, reading, baking, a little fixing, doing the things that cruisers do.

Oh, you're looking for an average? Sorry, can't help you there.


----------



## Don L

aeventyr60 said:


> So Don0190, what keeps you from getting out and cruising on your 3000 a month? Your miserable in your job? Go. I don't think the 3000 will be enough for you anyway. Maybe time to walk the talk.? Plenty of folks doing it on all kinds of budgets.


The why, because I don't have enough saved yet to make the money last! Especially if I expect my wife to agree to come along along, which unlike many I do because her thoughts and wishes count with me

The rest of your post was just useless trash talk that contributed nothing to the subject other than to be insulting, but thanks.


----------



## MikeOReilly

All can relate is my actual experience Don, not some third-party, read it off the internet, wisdom. You keep asking the same question, and getting the same answer: it costs what you spend. You can budget all you like in your nice safe armchair, but you need to get out and live the life for a while to know what YOU need. I know I can spend very little by staying away from urban money traps, but for some people, visiting urban money traps is the whole point of them going cruising. To each his own I say. 

If you're a marina hopper, or your boat cannot manage to be away from shore amenities for a long time, then you will spend more. If you can stock cheaply and in bulk, and live on the hook most of the time, then you will spend much less. 

The lesson in all these threads is that there is no one TRUTH about financing. Only you can answer that question grasshopper. Now, get off your duff and go!


Why go fast, when you can go slow


----------



## Don L

Omatako said:


> A cruising budget is easy to establish.
> 
> It's $3000 in March - the supermarkets and diesel are really inexpensive here so we've stocked up on all our supplies.
> It's $0 in April - see March above.


So in April you just anchored and either sat on the boat or dinghied in and walked around, and you only ate or drank what you had bought the month before? No meals out, movies, bought a book, paid for internet, did any landry ashore, went to a museum, or anything.

Sounds fun  Then you repeated for July, August, and Sept.


----------



## Don L

MikeOReilly said:


> . You keep asking the same question, and getting the same answer: it costs what you spend.


Of course it costs what you spend. What a helpful budgeting statement. uke

I wonder what is going to work out better for a cruiser: spending $2000/mo when they had a $3000/mo budget, or spending $1000/mo when they had budgeted $500/mo.

BTW - when I say "cruising" budget I mean "living" budget. It has to cover everything!


----------



## killarney_sailor

Don0190 said:


> So in April you just anchored and either sat on the boat or dinghied in and walked around, and you only ate or drank what you had bought the month before? No meals out, movies, bought a book, paid for internet, did any landry ashore, went to a museum, or anything.
> 
> Sounds fun  Then you repeated for July, August, and Sept.


Don, you are continually putting down the experience of people who are actually doing what you say you want to do. Has it occurred to you that there are places where it is impossible (or nearly so) to actually spend money? There are no restaurants, movie theatres, book stores (and if there are, the books won't be in English - you use free book exchanges or load up an iPad before you go), there is no Internet, you do your own laundry rather than hiring a local woman to wash it by bashing it on a rock, there are no museums - basically there is no anything that requires money. Then you go somewhere else where you cannot avoid spending a lot.

Couple of examples. We spent several weeks in Suvarov in the Cook Islands. The only money you can spent there is the entry fee to the country ($50?). If you were coming from another island in the country you could not spend a penny. Add on the passage to and from Suvarov, (no museums and movie theatres in the middle of the Pacific) and you spend zippo for most of a couple of months. When you arrive in South Africa you have no choice but to spend money on marinas - there are no anchorages at all along the eastern part of the country. Food, wine and beer are all cheap, both for eating out and provisioning. You want to go see lions and elephants - for us it was a two week trip with car rental, hotels, etc. It was relatively cheap and terrific touring, but it still adds up.

What do you drink? Are you flexible? In some places you drink rum because it is cheap. In other places wine is the bargain beverage, while in others it is beer. If you insist on your favourite Scotch you will be shocked at how expensive it will be in some places (if you can get it at all). French Polynesia and Australia come to mind. If you are paying $80 a fifth for hooch that would be less than $20 in the US it can add up pretty quick. We found it made more sense to drink the $2 a litre Chilean wines and $8 a litre excellent rum we stocked up on in Panama, where we spent $1200 at the local version of Costco one day. The rum went really well with the limes we bought in Ecudador 70 for $1.

I haven't cruised the coast of Spain, France, and Italy in the Med, but I hear it is incredibly expensive. Almost no anchorages and marinas that are over $100 a night. Great food and great restaurants, but not cheap.

You tell me where you want to cruise, what kind of boat (size and complexity), and what your lifestyle is and I can make a broad guess as to the cost. Without that kind of information it is useless to say that you can do it on $500 a month, $3000 a month or any other amount.


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## Don L

killarney_sailor said:


> Don, you are continually putting down the experience of people who are actually doing what you say you want to do.


I don't feel I'm putting down anyone. I'm trying to explore real numbers, which is why I ask what they are doing and what is included in their "budgets". If people can't or don't what to share this info then they are only reading this thread for internet forum entertainment.


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## Group9

Don0190 said:


> I don't feel I'm putting down anyone. I'm trying to explore real numbers, which is why I ask what they are doing and what is included in their "budgets". If people can't or don't what to share this info then they are only reading this thread for internet forum entertainment.


You sound like you need a high degree of certainty about what is going to happen when cruising and what it is going to cost. All I can tell you from my previous cruising experience, is that that financial certainty can be found in a lot of lifestyles, but I'm not sure cruising is one of them.

Most cruisers deal with that uncertainty, by:

1. Accepting it.
2. Being very self sufficient.
3. Learning as much as they can, especially from people who have already done what they are trying to do, on how to cope with that uncertainty.

If you think the costs of cruising can be hard to pin down, wait until you see how uncertain the weather can be while cruising.


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## outbound

One thing Killarney says that strikes home is expense depends on locale. Over this summer have wandered around North east U.S. A major expense has been moorings when either no anchorage or no room in anchorage. Often have no choice- either pay for mooring or turn around and head out again which may be unsafe as both wife/myself are sleep deprived from sail getting to new harbor. So far have been able to avoid slips but this has required not going certain places where only slips are available. Other highly variable expense has been fuel. If no wind engine is on. If no wind or sun generator needs to be run even when on anchor. Image this will continue to vary after beginning of November and we head for BVI.
Good, cheap food seems to require local knowledge and often a cab ride. Have taken to looking at sterns and noting homeport boats. If anyone in cockpit dinghy over and politely ask they share knowledge.


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## MarkofSeaLife

Of course Killarney is quite right. But also, of course, OF COURSE the internet takes over a forum thread and the only person who doesnt realise it is the person most interested.

This thread would be attended to lots of people in that budget range of the subject box if they were allowed to. But they are not. One must learn and understand the internet and how it works.

You can't talk budget on this forum unless you are talking low budget. Thats why the $500 per month threads, and ridiculous as they are, work.

I was reading a trawler for big expensive motor boats and it was exaclty the same. Everyone deriding anyone who has a better budget than the bare minimum. Even the typical political slagging off saying anyone who spends more that the most miserly budget is some fascist. Except the most miserly budget there was $60,000 per year 

A few have the guts to toss their expenses sheets out for all to critisize... and the interesting thing is that all the budgets are quite close no matter if you have a living off the hook budget or cruise around in sailing style or the superyacht/trawler budget.

You can only eat so much and, yes, thats often regulated by your location.

The budget variations come from free food (caught, and very few boats catch more than a meal a week), supermarkets, how much food boght before their cruise.
Then theirs maintenance and what needs to be put aside for the 3rd, 5th and 12th years maintenance. If you include maintenance for a full decade it will be different to one year. Sorry, but thats true. Obviously it depends on your boat too.

Now, then theres the variables in budgets and this is what changes a low budget to a higher one:
Restaurants
Travel home
Insurances
Marinas
Travel off the boat.

And they are mostly discretionary.

if you are from the USA and fly home from the Caribbean is costs tuppence compared to flying home from Suvarov in the Cook Islands. So most don't till they can afford the flight.

One friends boat was on the exact same pittance of a budget as mine except for an extra $10,000 per year because he could not be in any port in the world without a rent a car every day! Why the hell do you need a rent a car EVERY day????????? But for he and his wife they liked making sandwitches on board and taking them on their daily trips.
If I had that extra money I would still go by bus, but I would be drunk 24/7!

If I did have some serious dollars to spend my own luxury would be to hire a helicopter in each country. I love the way you see terrain by helicopter.

So everyone's budget is basically the same its only our parameters individually that differ. But these threads will not allow discussion of those parameters and thats very sad.


Mark


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## hellosailor

Mark, you don't need money to be drunk 24/7. Surely, you can find a way to turn potatoes, rice, or grain into moonshine? No tovarich to tech you how to make wodka?! You've missed out on a basic sailing skill.(G)


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## MarkofSeaLife

Mine is a better quality moonshine... but the recipe says it needs to be aged 12 years...


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## Don L

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Mine is a better quality moonshine... but the recipe says it needs to be aged 12 years...


good reason to be in the Caribbean since good rum is less expensive than "other" stuff

See I think of ways to cut the budget


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## outbound

Spent a good part of today shopping insurance. Boat/ health/ liability etc. Here I think there is a clear cut difference.
Budget- own inexpensive boat and loses will be low so can self insure.
Retired or families or full time lives boards may have a substantial investment in boat with losses meaning the dream is gone for ever so are more likely insure.
Stinking rich- once again other than liability can afford to self insure. Also more likely to have boat inside a corporate shell with loses a write off.
Once again the working stiff meeting his obligations or having saved his pennies takes the shaft.
P.S.- can get great rum cheap in Plymouth MA - Dirty Water Distilleries "What Knot"


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## aeventyr60

Don0190 said:


> The why, because I don't have enough saved yet to make the money last! Especially if I expect my wife to agree to come along along, which unlike many I do because her thoughts and wishes count with me
> 
> The rest of your post was just useless trash talk that contributed nothing to the subject other than to be insulting, but thanks.


Nope, just calling you out. Your so concerned about the 3K a month budget when you don't even have it to spend? I asked you to get out here and cruise instead of being miserable in your job. Tough beans. Given your lack of understanding on the value of money, especially while out cruising in remote areas I don't believe you will able to cruise on the 3000 a month anyway.

In your analysis paralysis maybe you should do a bit of soul searching as to what your really want to do while cruising. Where do you want to go? How will you go? Long term? Short term? What do you want out of your cruising experience? Only you can decide on how much you'll spend once out here. It could be a lot more or it could be a lot less. We found it was a lot less.


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## aeventyr60

Don0190 said:


> I don't feel I'm putting down anyone. I'm trying to explore real numbers, which is why I ask what they are doing and what is included in their "budgets". If people can't or don't what to share this info then they are only reading this thread for internet forum entertainment.


The subject of what are people doing while cruising and the need to "SEE" something is a funny one.

We went cruising to actually sail to remote place and see interesting cultures.
A lot of what we've seen and done hasn't been too far from where the boats been anchored. On other occasions we've made deeper forays into the hinter lands to discover other places. A few come to mind:
Copper Canyon in Mexico by train.
A trip to the town of Tequila.
6 weeks in the Galapagos exploring the islands, diving with the hammerhead sharks, hanging out with George the giant tortoise, many days at the Darwin center listening to lectures by visiting scientists.
Most of the great walks in New Zealand. Heaphy, Keppler, Queen Charlotte, Able Tasman etc...
Sea kayaking in Doubtful Sound for a month.
A Winter spent skiing in Mt. Hutt on the South island. (season pass was 40 bucks, I skied 66 days!)
Numerous days spent fly fishing. Yes, I caught the elusive 10 pound trout!
A trip to Hong Kong to see the Rugby 7's-Go the All blacks!
2 trips to Nepal to trek in the Himalaya. Total of 101 days on the trail.
Plain of Jars in Laos, Angkor Wat, Cu Chi tunnels in Vietnam to name a few of the spots in Se Asia.....

Many many other adventures. Just a few highlights during the past 15 years and about to turn the 40,000 nautical miles under sail mark.

So, What are you waiting for?
What do YOU want to do?


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## Aquarian

vega1860 said:


> Rant mode ON :hothead
> 
> For those not paying attention, the situation in the US, vis. health insurance is changing rapidly. The ACA has turned the insurance industry and the medical care industries upside down. The politicians are jockeying for position trying to avoid negative fallout from their constituents. The administration is issuing executive orders exempting favored political groups and pushing back implementation deadlines. The opposition in the house has voted forty times to defund the act but the senate refuses to vote on it. The individual and employer mandates have been postponed so as not to affect elections. The whole thing is not scheduled to kick in until 2015 (After the next elections) in the hopes that the Democrat party can hold their majority in the senate.
> 
> There is no telling what the landscape will look like a year from now and in 2016 we have national elections again that will give us a new President, while one third of the senate and all of the house of representative stand for re-election. By then, at the current rate of change, the US will be a completely different country. There is no guarantee that the money you pay out for insurance today will get you medical care when you need it down the road.
> 
> If you have a five year plan to go cruising and are concerned about medical services, I suggest you plan to have enough money to pay a doctor yourself. You will be amazed at how much money you save by dealing directly with your doctor instead of paying an insurance company to do it for you.
> 
> Above all, if you plan to go cruising, "Free your mind". Cut the leash and learn to depend on yourself instead of someone you send a check to every month.
> 
> Rant mode OFF


I have to say, "amen and thank you!" I am a US RN. We, my husband and I, are prepping to head back out long-term on retirement. I just received a rough quote for MAJOR MEDICAL insurance for a family of 2 ages 48 and 60 for about $1000 per month with a $6000 deductible. Sorry, but NO - duh. Not happening. Do the math. How long would it take to fund a $25,000 or $100,000 operation when they don't pay anything until after we pay $18,000 per year. Obamacare is a scam to fund the insurance companies (this comment is about the medical law not American political agendas). If you fund your own insurance and pay your bills in cash, every medical facility in the US that I have ever dealt with immediately discounts your bill by as much as 50% - because they don't have to spend money to fight the insurance companies to get your payment.
If we had a bit of common sense, we would all do what I did before I got lulled into the system by employer provided free insurance. I called a prominent insurance company and asked for a quote for insuring my family. They responded with a number. I promptly opened a savings account and began depositing that amount of money into that account each month. If I had maintained that, my children would be set for life when I die almost certainly. It would take an amazingly drawn out illness to have spent it all - remember, I paid half as much as your insurance company PRETENDS to pay for healthcare. The cost of care is often far less when you get outside of the US. I cut off a finger in Dutch St Martin. It cost $250 to have it sewn back on, and it still works. Find a US surgeon that will reattach a finger for that - oh, and then remember, in the US, you will receive separate bills from the hospital and anesthetist, and whoever else in addition to your surgery bill. I have no plans of making a special trip to the US for health care. . . . If the current US health care system isn't good enough for the government members who put it in place, it isn't good enough for me. . . Not that it matters because I can't afford it anyway.


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## Minnewaska

outbound said:


> ..Budget- own inexpensive boat and loses will be low so can self insure.


It's all relative to your net worth. Both a $50k and a $500k boat can be too much for any given person to lose.



> Retired or families or full time lives boards may have a substantial investment in boat with losses meaning the dream is gone for ever so are more likely insure.


I know a few liveaboards of various means. I do not believe any can actually take the financial hit of losing their only home. Although, to my dismay, some seem to take that chance. I've heard it rationalized and I just shake my head.



> Stinking rich- once again other than liability can afford to self insure. Also more likely to have boat inside a corporate shell with loses a write off.
> Once again the working stiff meeting his obligations or having saved his pennies takes the shaft.


I don't know where stinking rich starts. I think I'm doing pretty well and can not afford to lose the investment in my boat, not even while still working.

Of course, I was coincidentally anchored among the New York Yacht Club cruise in Edgartown a few weeks ago. Most of their boats could have carried ours as a dinghy. Being more serious, I would say the smallest sailboat was 80 ft, up to 120ft. Stinkpotters were 120ft up to 250 ft. Several stinkpotters had their 45ft racing sailboat tied up along side their megayacht. They must be the stinking rich and I will bet you they all have insurance.


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## JonEisberg

Minnewaska said:


> I don't know where stinking rich starts. I think I'm doing pretty well and can not afford to lose the investment in my boat, not even while still working.
> 
> Of course, I was coincidentally anchored among the New York Yacht Club cruise in Edgartown a few weeks ago. Most of their boats could have carried ours as a dinghy. Being more serious, I would say the smallest sailboat was 80 ft, up to 120ft. Stinkpotters were 120ft up to 250 ft. Several stinkpotters had their 45ft racing sailboat tied up along side their megayacht. They must be the stinking rich and I will bet you they all have insurance.


Speaking of NYYC members, I'm hoping the guys involved in the collision and sinking of the pristine Concordia WINNIE OF BOURNE after being T-boned by a Swan 46 in pre-race maneuvering off Nantucket a couple of weeks ago are properly insured:

Sailboat sinks after collision 080714

The cost of bringing that beauty back could easily wipe out several _YEAR'S_ worth of a #3K/month cruising budget...


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## Minnewaska

JonEisberg said:


> Speaking of NYYC members, I'm hoping the guys involved in the collision and sinking of the pristine Concordia WINNIE OF BOURNE after being T-boned by a Swan 46 in pre-race maneuvering off Nantucket a couple of weeks ago are properly insured.....


Good point. I was nearby when the securite was being broadcast. We arrived the following day, and within those 24hrs, she was lifted and gone.

It raises another point that too often starts an argument. If you're not insured, you are much more likely to just leave the hulk sitting on the bottom. In this case, it blocked a navigable entrance. To go uninsured, you not only have to have the resources to lose your boat, but also enough to remedy the problem you create for the rest of us.


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## cthoops

I've read all of this thread and the $500/month thread with interest. Although we don't have the big boat yet and we're not heading out for another ten years, I already know that we will fall somewhere in between the two amounts. Just setting money aside for the inevitable maintenance/repairs, health expenses, and boat insurance will push us over $500/month. 

I am a firm believer that in general people will spend something similar to what they spend on land, less land-based only costs (i.e. mortgage, car, etc.). I also strongly believe that people can spend a lot less on land than they realize, and still be happy - maybe even happier. My assistant is getting ready to retire and she and her husband's annual retirement income will be over double what ours will be (because she's retiring at 65 vs. my retiring at 55). Yet she still frets over having enough and looks at me like I'm going to be in the poorhouse. Me? I'm not concerned because I know it will be enough. The difference? The things that they value and are spending money on vs. what we value and spend our money on. That's not to say her way is wrong. I used to be more like her when it comes to money and spending. But over the past few years I've realized that I can live with substantially fewer amenities than she can, and I'm more content than I've ever been.

Frankly, I don't think there's any reason why a couple can't cruise on $3,000/month with money to spare, UNLESS they need the items that push them over that amount. In some cases it may be truly needed. But someone who still has many years before they cast off the lines might try simplifying now to see how it feels. They may discover that they don't need as much as they thought.


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## Don L

aeventyr60 said:


> Nope, just calling you out. .............Given your lack of understanding on the value of money, especially while out cruising in remote areas I don't believe you will able to cruise on the 3000 a month anyway.


Aren't you just a judgemental ahole type looking for ways to be insulting. I don't understand why you keep reading and posting on this thread since all you are interested in is attacking me. What a valuable source of info you are!


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## Minnewaska

A cruising budget is a very different thing from a long term retirement liveaboard budget. While most cruisers will return to shore, almost all retired people do. That is, those that live to a nice ripe age. You also need the budget to get back on land and selling one's boat will almost never fund your final years ashore. If the premise is true that it is cheaper to liveaboard than ashore, that's a tough thing to plan for. All the talk of cheap foreign medical care is well and good when you break an arm or need sutures. I dare say that long term geriatric care ashore in a country you don't live in would be a different story.


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## Group9

Minnewaska said:


> Good point. I was nearby when the securite was being broadcast. We arrived the following day, and within those 24hrs, she was lifted and gone.
> 
> It raises another point that too often starts an argument. If you're not insured, you are much more likely to just leave the hulk sitting on the bottom. In this case, it blocked a navigable entrance. To go uninsured, you not only have to have the resources to lose your boat, but also enough to remedy the problem you create for the rest of us.


And, there is an in between option. You can get liability only, with wreck removal, at about a fifth of the cost of full coverage. Doesn't replace your boat (or your home if you're living aboard) but it is the responsible thing to do if you can't afford full coverage (or just don't think it's a good deal).

And, as the costs of full coverage go up, more and more will probably take the liability only route, and bank the savings for that day.


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## MikeOReilly

MarkofSeaLife said:


> So everyone's budget is basically the same its only our parameters individually that differ. But these threads will not allow discussion of those parameters and thats very sad.


Are you sure you weren't drunk when you wrote this Mark ;-)

Actually, if I follow your long ramble, I agree. Outside of food costs, most expenditures will be driven by individual parameters, or as I and others have often put it, wants vs needs. It all comes down to choices -- and the consequences that follow from those choices.

If you must have a big, expensive boat then the consequences are higher capital and maintenance costs. Dockage, equipment, insurance etc all go up exponentially. This is why I appreciate the concept of going with the smallest boat you can live with. For some, that is a 55 foot cat, for others it is a 27 foot mono. If that's what your parameters are (your nee)d, then fine. Consequences will follow.

I'm happy to discuss these parameters Mark. Not sure why you think we can't. But I gotta sail now. We're leaving our plush marina now. Hopefully on the hook tonight, or perhaps an overnight sail to somewhere east.

Why go fast, when you can go slow


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## Group9

MikeOReilly said:


> Are you sure you weren't drunk when you wrote this Mark ;-)


I've been there, done that.


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## Don L

Minnewaska said:


> A cruising budget is a very different thing from a long term retirement liveaboard budget.


Of course for those of us not so young the cruising budget is a living budget and a part of the long term retirement plan.


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## outbound

Minnie- I have full insurance . Can't afford to not have it. You are right but know several folks going bare. Been away cruising. One stop was sag harbor. We were the smallest boat in the anchorage. Our boat could be the dinghy for some of the sailboats in there let alone the wedding cake boats. Passed on the $31 hamburger offered in town and ate buffalo burgers on the grill. Yum. That $31 hamburger costs the same regardless of what boat you're on.
Still when the boat is a corporate asset and used to "entertain" clients the calculus is different for insurance. Last summer got friendly with a French couple. They have three kids.one borne on the boat. To my knowledge they just have liability insurance. Boat is sole asset. Would note even in our limited travels we have been asked for proof of liability insurance. Think that will increase as time goes by.
Being in a transition period so far find personal expenses less on the boat. Entertainment,clothes, food etc. are less. Obviously don't drive when on boat but fuel costs higher. Think differences between small ( <40') and moderate (40-50') may be somewhat overstated as actual living( food, drink, clothes, water, health insurance, flights etc.) 
expenses the same.


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## Minnewaska

Don0190 said:


> Of course for those of us not so young the cruising budget is a living budget and a part of the long term retirement plan.


What's a living budget? I don't follow.


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## Don L

Minnewaska said:


> What's a living budget? I don't follow.


the budget you live on, doesn't matter if it is on land, a boat, or a tent under a bridge


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## MarkofSeaLife

Minnewaska said:


> What's a living budget? I don't follow.


Instant noodles.

Ask any university student.


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## Minnewaska

Don0190 said:


> the budget you live on, doesn't matter if it is on land, a boat, or a tent under a bridge


Ok, but you were replying to the distinction between a cruising budget and retirement live aboard budget. I will translate your point to say that you understand a living budget will change dramatically (increase) as you move back ashore in the latter days of your retirement.


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## cthoops

I wasn't trying to make a distinction between a cruising budget and a retirement liveaboard budget. For us, retirement will mean full time cruising but we'll return to land when we're ready, not because we've run out of money. At the risk of stating the obvious, if a person can be in a position where their cruising budget comes from steady sources of income (e.g. a pension, earnings from investments) and they don't touch the principal, then it's not necessary to rely on the funds from selling the boat. 

All I was trying to say was that if people are willing to look outside the box, they may find that they don't need as much money as they thought to go cruising.


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## aeventyr60

Don0190 said:


> Aren't you just a judgemental ahole type looking for ways to be insulting. I don't understand why you keep reading and posting on this thread since all you are interested in is attacking me. What a valuable source of info you are!


Nope, wrong again. You want black and white answers when there are not any. You ask about reality while living in fantasy. Not having any kind of "cruising plan" must surely add to your angst. Why not answer the simple questions I posed? If you read the "Cruising Finances" thread you would know that the majority of folks have a PLAN and can articulate what it may be.. So again, whats your plan? Long term offshore cruising? Coastal? What's your ideal "cruising lifestyle". How are YOU going to make it happen?

Again I don't think you will be able to do it on $3000 a month, especially without being able to answer the questions above. If that rufffles your feathers now, what are you going to do when the **** hits the fan offshore?


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## Minnewaska

cthoops said:


> I wasn't trying to make a distinction between a cruising budget and a retirement liveaboard budget. For us, retirement will mean full time cruising but we'll return to land when we're ready, not because we've run out of money. At the risk of stating the obvious, if a person can be in a position where their cruising budget comes from steady sources of income (e.g. a pension, earnings from investments) and they don't touch the principal, then it's not necessary to rely on the funds from selling the boat.
> 
> All I was trying to say was that if people are willing to look outside the box, they may find that they don't need as much money as they thought to go cruising.


I agree with your point, but was trying to add a distinction that I thought was relevant to the current query. When you return to shore, you'll need somewhere to live. If you rent, you'll need that increase in cash flow to cover it. Maybe its an offset to one's boat costs, but that depends. If you buy a house or condo, you'll need that capital. For most, its pretty unlikely that the boat value is a swap. Finally, your medical or long term nursing care needs will need to be met as well, understanding a reasonable number of cruisers that go without medical insurance in younger years.

If one is cruising for a few years in their 40s or 50s with the understanding they will return to work, this is less relevant. If one's plan is to spend every moment until they can no longer be aboard, it's very relevant.


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## Group9

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Instant noodles.
> 
> Ask any university student.


I've never been so poor I couldn't live off Ramen noodles.


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## Group9

aeventyr60 said:


> Nope, wrong again. You want black and white answers when there are not any. You ask about reality while living in fantasy. Not having any kind of "cruising plan" must surely add to your angst. Why not answer the simple questions I posed? If you read the "Cruising Finances" thread you would know that the majority of folks have a PLAN and can articulate what it may be.. So again, whats your plan? Long term offshore cruising? Coastal? What's your ideal "cruising lifestyle". How are YOU going to make it happen?
> 
> Again I don't think you will be able to do it on $3000 a month, especially without being able to answer the questions above. If that rufffles your feathers now, what are you going to do when the **** hits the fan offshore?


I agree. It's like asking people, "What does it cost to build a house?" without knowing where you want to build it, or how big you want it to be.


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## Don L

was a lot more useful thread before it turned to just really be bashing

just where would internet forums be without bashers looking for a "cause"


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## Group9

Don0190 said:


> was a lot more useful thread before it turned to just really be bashing
> 
> just where would internet forums be without bashers looking for a "cause"


We're all trying to tell you the same thing, but because it's not the answer you want to hear, you think we are bashing you.


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## Don L

Group9 said:


> Don0190 said:
> 
> 
> 
> was a lot more useful thread before it turned to just really be bashing
> 
> just where would internet forums be without bashers looking for a "cause"
> 
> 
> 
> We're all trying to tell you the same thing, but because it's not the answer you want to hear, you think we are bashing you.
Click to expand...

i

You aren't telling me anything as the thread isn't about me. There isn't any answer I want to heard . I already know the answer for me


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## Group9

Don0190 said:


> i
> 
> You telling me anything as the thread isn't about me. There isn't any answer I want to heard . I already know the answer for me


Okey Dokey.


----------



## Don L

Don0190 said:


> Determining a cruising budget and trying to find out if it will work seems like one of the most important parts of cruising, yet is one of the hardest to find any answers on. Before I got into sailing I spent 2 years researching the cost issues and in the end kind of just gave up and placed myself on a path to cruising anyway.
> 
> The question frequently becomes all jammed up with "it depends" and "it costs whatever you can afford to spend" answers. Which are true, but of little value for planning. Planning becomes even more important for those not so young when the decision to stop working and go cruising equals an end to a career and little chance of returning to work at anywhere near the level they were when they sailed off. The goal becomes balancing leaving while young enough to get the most of of cruising, while working long enough to not run out of money.
> 
> But I'm becoming more and more job burnt out and more and more caught in the dream, so find myself looking for the answer. To do it I spend lots of time reading though blogs looking for what people are spending and comparing it to what they are doing. I read things like the "Interview with a Cruiser Project", waste my time on the various forums, and just plain taking a guess based on what it costs me to live on land and maintain my boat now and have a budget in mind.
> 
> The budget I'm currently planning for is $3000/mo, which has to cover basically everything. Now this isn't a down and dirty budget, and it isn't a live high budget. But it is expected to be a comfortable budget that allows sightseeing and not eating out of a can budget. And as an average amount is one that I could cruise on till I no longer an able (that $3000/mo, $36,000/yr budget becomes $52,500 when I'm 75 at 2% inflation).
> 
> If you are in the cruise for $500/mo group this isn't a thread for you. But if you are in a similar position for cruising on $3000/mo I would love to see comments on what you expect this to mean far as your cruising plans.


I'm back to looking at the budget with a planned leave target being Sept 2015. I'm still figuring $3k/mo on average spending budget to cover everything.

It is looking that on Sept 2015 we will have $442k in cash and 401ks. In 2022 & 2023 we each could start collecting about $1300/mo in social security. Had the financial advisor run the projections and he said it all works (was surprised a financial advisor would even say that).


----------



## newhaul

Don0190 said:


> I'm back to looking at the budget with a planned leave target being Sept 2015. I'm still figuring $3k/mo on average spending budget to cover everything.
> 
> It is looking that on Sept 2015 we will have $442k in cash and 401ks. In 2022 & 2023 we each could start collecting about $1300/mo in social security. Had the financial advisor run the projections and he said it all works (was surprised a financial advisor would even say that).


Did your planner take into account the new USCG document fee it may break the bank ya know. :laugher:laugher


----------



## travellerw

Maybe this won't add much to a thread 38 pages long... but...

Our family is planning on a departure date of Sept 2015. Our budget is exactly the same, $3000/month for everything. We are a family of 5 (kids under 10) and will have no other expenses except cruising. We will be on a 38-42 catamaran "somewhere". Currently we have no plan as it will depend on the purchase location of the boat. 

I have spoke through e-mail will multiple cruisers (some with kids, some without) to help arrive at my budget. Some of them have cheaper budgets (yes even with kids) and some had bigger budgets. One thing they all told me, "You will spend at least your budget", if you budget 2K, 3K, 5K then you can count on spending at least that amount (most months exactly). 

One person I spoke with who has been out there 7 years, said they went with one budget but have moved to a much lower budget. They said that once they realized they couldn't keep going unless they downsized the budget, they cut out a bunch of stuff. Their budget was cut in half and they were surprised at how little it affected the quality of their life. 

I hope to see you out there!


----------



## Shockwave

I've never bought into the 10~20% annual maintenance cost of the purchase price because it's an unknown what was paid for a used boat and what condition it's in. A new boat has new systems and can be sailed for many years before maintenance is an issue.

Some examples: 
A new Tartan 41 cost roughly $500k, will the owner be spending $50~$100k per year to maintain it? Of course not
A used Tartan 41 may cost $70k or $300k. The $70k 41 may have had a complete refit with new standing rigging, sails, engine, bottom, electronics... but the owner has decided to sell for any multitude of reasons. Will the new owner have to spend $7 to $14k every year to maintain it? Again the answer will be no. Meanwhile the $300k Tartan 41 may need new everything and the owner may well have to spend well over $120k to bring the boat back up to yare.

I've always believed the best way to look at annual maintenance is to compare the boat to a new replacement boat. I believe the average maintenance cost for a boat in private ownership used on a regular basis will require 1/2 to 2% of new replacement cost. So, if a new Chance 30 were built today it went out the door for $150k, your annual maintenance would be $750 to $3000. Some years will be light and some years will be heavy but over the long run it's going to be somewhere in this range.

And remember inflation, ten years from now that $150k Chance 30 may be $200k if newly built then.

Over the past 13 years we've done a ton of work on our boat (sails, rigging, engine, generator, instruments, hull and deck paint...) and have spent roughly 1.4% of new replacement.

At the end of the day the best value is to buy a good used well found boat that has been through a recent refit. You will buy for pennies on the dollar. The worst value, often, is to buy new and fit it out for cruising. Depreciation is the most expensive facet of boat ownership.

And I'm not saying one or the other form of ownership (new or used) is right or wrong, I'm strictly talking finances.



JonEisberg said:


> Agree completely, and that's the primary reason why I found some of the stuff in the "_Voyaging_ on $500/month" thread at least verging on the semi-delusional...
> 
> Going places, actually using the boat full-time, costs money... In my observation, one of the biggest factors that people embarking on full time "voyaging" for the first time tend to underestimate, is the greatly increased wear and tear on a boat suddenly being used all the time, and the amount of time (and consequently, money) spent "fixing their boats in exotic locations"... I think many people grossly underestimate the costs of maintenance, or tend to attempt to defer them as long as possible. (Which of course can lead to bigger problems, and wind up costing more, in the long run) It can wear a lot of folks down pretty quickly, and I think it's definitely one of the primary reason why many quit the fulltime cruising life sooner, rather than later... Also, one of the most compelling arguments for avoiding complexity, and keeping things as simple as possible - within reason, of course...
> 
> Pretty good post from SAILFEED, regarding the maintenance costs on a couple out there on a Stevens 47... To someone sailing a modest boat like mine, these numbers certainly give pause to the notion of 'stepping up' to a comparable boat, to say the least...
> 
> Cruising costs, routine maintenance, and the 10% (15%, 20%) rule | Sailfeed
> 
> The cost of cruising: Totem?s maintenance list | Sailfeed


----------



## Group9

So much of your maintenance budget depends of how good you are at figuring out how to fix things.

I will give an example: My ST4000 RayMarine Autopilot broke one day, coming into a pass with some pretty good waves (where I probably shouldn't have had it engaged).

There were three options to fix it:

1. New autopilot - cost $1500 to $2500

2. Replacement drive unit - $550

3. Take the thing completely apart myself, figure out what was wrong with it, and replace the six (out of 9) little plastic gears that I found had been stripped. cost - $45

I picked #3. But, someone who would have picked #1 or #2 option, is definitely going to need to set more money aside for maintenance than I have to have.


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## windnrock

$3000 per month is very doable. We budget at about $2000 have a 41 foot boat, international insurance for both the boat and health and fly occasionally. We stay on the hook, limit our restaurant spending and do almost all maintenance and repairs ourselves. We do go out, we do shop and we absolutely enjoy our life!


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## Don L

Been playing with the spreadsheet (what else is there to do boating wise in the frozen world). A recent real world numbers thread elsewhere got me to thinking that $3500/mo might be more reasonable (though not giving up on the $3k/mo yet) and that made me look more into the impact. Turns out that $3500/mo cuts the kitty to lasting till 81, and if I go up to $4k to 76. But that is assuming a lowery 0.5% interest because that seemed safe. If I go to 3-5% I made it into my 80s. 

So Social Security says that I'm going to last to 77.42 years old, my plan works on paper and that is about the best I can hope for.


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## chuck5499

Don0190 said:


> Been playing with the spreadsheet (what else is there to do boating wise in the frozen world). A recent real world numbers thread elsewhere got me to thinking that $3500/mo might be more reasonable (though not giving up on the $3k/mo yet) and that made me look more into the impact. Turns out that $3500/mo cuts the kitty to lasting till 81, and if I go up to $4k to 76. But that is assuming a lowery 0.5% interest because that seemed safe. If I go to 3-5% I made it into my 80s.
> 
> So Social Security says that I'm going to last to 77.42 years old, my plan works on paper and that is about the best I can hope for.


We put our 6 years of cost data out here someplace but this forum will not take excel data so someone put it on but it hard to use.

When we were in the Caribbean we spent between $2,500 and $3,000 a year. Now in then Med last summer we sailed over 3,000nm, did 31 ports of call, made inland trips to Albania, Macedona, Kosovo and Serbia. We had to get a new main sail and it cost us about $3,500 for the year. 
Good luck


----------



## killarney_sailor

Don
Not sure where you are planning to cruise, but in general I think you should be just fine on $3000 (or less) per month. I would be inclined to aim to spend considerably less per month and build a surplus for those unexpected items and opportunities. We have had months where we spent $0 and other months where we spent $10,000 plus (we just bought two new sails and cockpit canvas).

It gets tricky looking 10 or 20 years into the future because who can predict things like inflation, currency differences (in the last year cruising for Americans has gotten much cheaper while it has gotten more expensive for Canadians, Aussies, and Europeans), and market trends.


----------



## travlin-easy

Jon, I'm a real cheapskate when it comes to repairs and maintenance - I do most of it myself. Sure, there are times when this old codger cannot crawl into the engine room, but most of the time I can fix what is broke and at very little cost. I'll spend some boat bucks this spring, though. 3G radar, Honda 2000i and autohelm will run me about $4,000, but that will be the last big expenditures on this boat, and I think I might get some of it back when the boat is sold, but not much, though.

Believe it or not, much of the time I'm within that $500 a month category while cruising, and if I do go over that amount, it's usually not by much. 

Cheers,

Gary


----------



## hellosailor

"So Social Security says that I'm going to last to 77.42 years old,"
I find it comforting to know that the government knows my expiry date, down to the tenth of a day. Takes a lot of worry out of life.


----------



## windnrock

An update on my previous post - My wife and I have been full time cruising for the past year and a half, went to New England for the summer of 2014 and are now in the Bahamas. We have a 41' Bristol (1981) that we restored and upgraded. We have traveled about 4000 nm. With food, fuel, replacement parts and repairs as well as occasional outings and dining out we are managing to do about $1500 per month. Fees entering the Bahamas, when spread over three months is about $120 per month. Anchoring everywhere is free, the wind is free and the fish are free. Sure, we will need to do some haul outs, get new parts and even replace batteries at some point but with 400 watts of solar, wind gen and a watermaker we are pretty self sufficient. A 10 lb. bottle of propane lasts about 2.5 months because we use electric whenever we can with the inverter. We have no mortgage, no electric or water, no property tax and no cars to maintain. The trick is to conserve a portion of the "monthly" expense to build a kitty for future expenditures. With our initial budget of $2000/mo., we will have about $3000 for haul and refit every 6 months! While I do virtually all the work on the boat, I also know every inch of her. I would be doing work around the house and mowing the lawn or shoveling snow too. Sure I do repairs in exotic places, but then again, here I am in exotic places! $3000 is way good to live on! Someone with a smaller, less complex boat could do better than us and easily live on $1000 to $1100 per month. It all depends on the individual and the lifestyle. We also have a large deductible on our Boat Insurance and keep a savings account to cover that and the Health Insurance deductible. That helps keep those amounts down.

"Fair wind and smooth seas!"


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## Don L

windnrock said:


> With our initial budget of $2000/mo., we will have about $3000 for haul and refit every 6 months!


See here is the thing. In my budget that $3000 for haul/refit is part of the monthly $3000/mo budget. The $3000/mo budget doesn't mean you spend that every month, part of that goes into longer term expenses that will be occurring.


----------



## 123456Wannasail654321

Don0190 said:


> Determining a cruising budget and trying to find out if it will work seems like one of the most important parts of cruising, yet is one of the hardest to find any answers on. Before I got into sailing I spent 2 years researching the cost issues and in the end kind of just gave up and placed myself on a path to cruising anyway.
> 
> The question frequently becomes all jammed up with "it depends" and "it costs whatever you can afford to spend" answers. Which are true, but of little value for planning. Planning becomes even more important for those not so young when the decision to stop working and go cruising equals an end to a career and little chance of returning to work at anywhere near the level they were when they sailed off. The goal becomes balancing leaving while young enough to get the most of of cruising, while working long enough to not run out of money.
> 
> But I'm becoming more and more job burnt out and more and more caught in the dream, so find myself looking for the answer. To do it I spend lots of time reading though blogs looking for what people are spending and comparing it to what they are doing. I read things like the "Interview with a Cruiser Project", waste my time on the various forums, and just plain taking a guess based on what it costs me to live on land and maintain my boat now and have a budget in mind.
> 
> The budget I'm currently planning for is $3000/mo, which has to cover basically everything. Now this isn't a down and dirty budget, and it isn't a live high budget. But it is expected to be a comfortable budget that allows sightseeing and not eating out of a can budget. And as an average amount is one that I could cruise on till I no longer an able (that $3000/mo, $36,000/yr budget becomes $52,500 when I'm 75 at 2% inflation).
> 
> If you are in the cruise for $500/mo group this isn't a thread for you. But if you are in a similar position for cruising on $3000/mo I would love to see comments on what you expect this to mean far as your cruising plans.


I plan on

when my children graduate college (maybe before) I am selling this larger home I have for the family and buying a teeny tiny house/town home/condo for cash.

no debt.

As few monthlies as possible hopefully NONE.

Buying a boat for cash. One that has most of what I want.

27-32 footer 10-15K No loans. proven traditional design (albin vega pearson etc..) So I can go anywhere I want if I choose to.

Small and simple without a ton of expensive whiz bang doodads.

As few thru hulls as possible. (Simpler)
water maker

Anchor out as much as humanly possible. (free)

Prepare my own meals as much as possible (cheaper). I've eaten in tons of restaurants so I know I'm not missing much.

Basically insurance for the boat. Maybe NONE since its so cheap (not monthlies)
I'm not circumnavigating so its doable.

The wife can come if she wants or she can meet me there.

But I will be sailing long before that time.

36 grand is a huge yearly budget. at least to me. I plan on 1000 or less a month


----------



## chuck5499

windnrock said:


> An update on my previous post - My wife and I have been full time cruising for the past year and a half, went to New England for the summer of 2014 and are now in the Bahamas. We have a 41' Bristol (1981) that we restored and upgraded. We have traveled about 4000 nm. With food, fuel, replacement parts and repairs as well as occasional outings and dining out we are managing to do about $1500 per month. Fees entering the Bahamas, when spread over three months is about $120 per month. Anchoring everywhere is free, the wind is free and the fish are free. Sure, we will need to do some haul outs, get new parts and even replace batteries at some point but with 400 watts of solar, wind gen and a watermaker we are pretty self sufficient. A 10 lb. bottle of propane lasts about 2.5 months because we use electric whenever we can with the inverter. We have no mortgage, no electric or water, no property tax and no cars to maintain. The trick is to conserve a portion of the "monthly" expense to build a kitty for future expenditures. With our initial budget of $2000/mo., we will have about $3000 for haul and refit every 6 months! While I do virtually all the work on the boat, I also know every inch of her. I would be doing work around the house and mowing the lawn or shoveling snow too. Sure I do repairs in exotic places, but then again, here I am in exotic places! $3000 is way good to live on! Someone with a smaller, less complex boat could do better than us and easily live on $1000 to $1100 per month. It all depends on the individual and the lifestyle. We also have a large deductible on our Boat Insurance and keep a savings account to cover that and the Health Insurance deductible. That helps keep those amounts down.
> 
> "Fair wind and smooth seas!"


Keep going on the expenses and see what the longer term cost is IF you wander farther than the Bahamas. The East Coast of the USA and Bahamas are no expensive. But if you start wandering farther away the cost does add up.

We have 6 years of cost data on an excel spreadsheet that we will share with anyone and put it on other forums. give me a pm with your email and i will send it to you.


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## windnrock

chuck5499 said:


> Keep going on the expenses and see what the longer term cost is IF you wander farther than the Bahamas. The East Coast of the USA and Bahamas are no expensive. But if you start wandering farther away the cost does add up.
> 
> We have 6 years of cost data on an excel spreadsheet that we will share with anyone and put it on other forums. give me a pm with your email and i will send it to you.


I have no doubt that costs will rise as we move further away. Airfare, fees and fuel being some of the biggest. Some costs will decrease however. In any case, we continue to shelter a portion of the budget for those contingencies. I have met so many people that have such varying lifestyles yet manage to get out and sail. Some very well may be at that $500 level and some are obviously over the $5000 a month point. Most seem to be in the $2000 range. That is what I used to pay in mortgage! We are quite happy with the way our projected expenses have worked out. Last year we ended with a tidy surplus that can go into the contingency fund. Nothing is completely predictable and change is inevitable. Everyone must find their own way to make their dreams come true. However, if you don't take the chance, they certainly won't.


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## travlin-easy

Wow! I couldn't imagine paying a $2,000 per month mortgage. I'm really showing my age now. Back when I had a mortgage, which was many, many years ago, the payment was $150 a month for 3000 square feet of home on 5.5 acres of land. My how times have changed. When I get home again, I think I'll take a close look at my boating expenses over the past decade, just to get an accurate figure on what I really spend on cruising. I suspect it's a lot less than most folks, but I could be wrong. My loving spouse of more than a half century says I spend way too much of my income on boating. Who knows, she may be right, but I wouldn't tell her if she was. 

Gary


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## windnrock

I guess the real point is....be happy. If you aren't, do something else. If someone can be happy spending much less than me, they are the fortunate ones! I just want enough for my wife and myself enjoy our lives, cruise safely and not burden others. That amount could be smaller but, given our particular circumstances, it is unlikely to grow.
The nice thing about this discussion is that you can see the variations in peoples approach. 
Our primary goal was to get onto the water and we made that happen. That does not mean that someone with less resources couldn't do the same thing. They simply need to follow a different route. To be sure Gary, $2000 is a good chunk. We don't pay that anymore! Nor power bills, or water or property tax or car payments or even close to what we used to pay for fuel in those cars. 
Marc


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## travlin-easy

Marc, I haven't had a car payment in 40 years and will never have car payment if I can help it. I know folks that pay $500 and more for their car and often wonder why.

Our power bill is always fairly low in comparison to our neighbors that have children at home, we're on septic and well, so no payments there either. There are some distinct benefits for those of us that live out in the sticks, but to be honest, I would rather live aboard full time. My loving spouse, however, has a different perspective on that, though.  

All the best,

Gary


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## 123456Wannasail654321

if you are going to be a marina to marina sailor its going to be expensive.


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## travlin-easy

If you're a marina to marina sailor, run the engine a lot, you will easily drop $100 a day into the dockage fees, electric and fuel bills. However, if you spend your nights in a quiet cove, on the hook, cook your own meals, nothing extravagant, and sail every chance you get, the bill goes down considerably. 

TV dinners are a couple bucks apiece and those that I've tried lately have been pretty darned tasty. Some of the new canned stews, soups, Chef Boyarde stuff is pretty tasty as well. I know, everyone wants filet mignon and lobster for dinner, but lets be realistic, no one in their right mind eats that stuff every day and lives to a ripe old age.

The booze bill can also eat up a big chunk of the budget. I have a fully stocked bar on the boat, but most of it was purchased at "Cheap Charlie's Liquors." Instead of Midori melon liquor that sells for $30 a bottle, I buy the $6 a bottle stuff, which IMO, actually tastes a lot better. Same goes for coconut rum and tequila. I keep some Bacardi Oakheart onboard as well as some Jim Beam Honey, which I really enjoy. Not real expensive, but pretty darned tastey.

There are a lot of days when I get lucky and catch dinner while sailing relatively close to shore along the eastern seaboard. Bluefish, dolphin, small yellowfin tuna, Spanish mackerel, king mackerel, and when anchored, sea bass, grunt, porgy, snapper and an occasional keeper size grouper. All these are skinned, filleted and packaged in zip-lock bags filled with fresh water and frozen. They stay fresh tasting for months on end.

That cruising bill, obviously, can vary substantially, depending on your method of cruising, and your dietary preferences. If I blew $3000 a month cruising, I would not be cruising for very long. Not only would I wipe out my bank account, but before that happened, my wife would wipe me out. Like I said earlier, I'll check my quicken account and determine exactly what I spend each year. If it's above $500 a month, including slip rent and winter storage, I would be very, very surprised.

Cheers,

Gary


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## hellosailor

Chef Boyardee ?! Gary, you're dating yourself.

We called that Purina Bachelor Chow in the 70's, but the kids eat Ramen Noodles now.

They're too naïve to realize they can buy the same noodles, less a lot of slat and fat, for $2 for two dozen bundles in the oriental markets, then just add a shake of freeze-dried soup or veggies if there's nothing better around.

Bachelor Chow. UGH.

Do like the Viet Cong, ten pounds of _rice _will keep you alive and burn minimum fuel for most of a month. No can opener needed.(G)


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## travlin-easy

One of the great things about being old is all those fond memories.  

Cheers,

Gary


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## fryewe

travlineasy said:


> One of the great things about being old is all those fond memories.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Gary


Until you're so old even those slip away...


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## travlin-easy

Nothin's forever!


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## chuck5499

windnrock said:


> I have no doubt that costs will rise as we move further away. Airfare, fees and fuel being some of the biggest. Some costs will decrease however. In any case, we continue to shelter a portion of the budget for those contingencies. I have met so many people that have such varying lifestyles yet manage to get out and sail. Some very well may be at that $500 level and some are obviously over the $5000 a month point. Most seem to be in the $2000 range. That is what I used to pay in mortgage! We are quite happy with the way our projected expenses have worked out. Last year we ended with a tidy surplus that can go into the contingency fund. Nothing is completely predictable and change is inevitable. Everyone must find their own way to make their dreams come true. However, if you don't take the chance, they certainly won't.


You have hit it pretty close. The issue will be the boat and how much you spend on her and what your philosphy is on keeping her going. We spend about 25% of cost or so on the boat. One year is was 50% when we did massive upgrades. Our philosphy is to keep the boat in premo condition and try to make one major upgrade a year. This year was suppose to be a new jib until we blew out the main so we got a new main. 
As you use the boat more and more it does take a toll on the boat and she requires a lot of maintenance to maintain her. And parts get more expensive when you get away from the USA. 
And as you wander farther away you may want to begin to explore inland of the new places that may take several days. We choose to put the boat into a marina for those trips as someone will be looking out for it. And then you have to worry about the hurricane season. Along the east coast of the USA you head north and enjoy the sailing. If you are carrying full insurance on the boat the insurance companies will want you below a certain point and that is usually a summer in Trinidad. You can anchor out but most admirals don't cotton to that so it is a marina. In the western caribbean you can sail though out Panama and over to Colombia and no issues. Of course if you make the Med sailing in the winter is very very difficult so folks tuck in and that means a marina. 
So good luck and keep going.


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## Minnewaska

travlineasy said:


> .....TV dinners are a couple bucks apiece and those that I've tried lately have been pretty darned tasty. Some of the new canned stews, soups, Chef Boyarde stuff is pretty tasty as well. I know, everyone wants filet mignon and lobster for dinner, but lets be realistic, no one in their right mind eats that stuff every day and lives to a ripe old age......


Eating canned and processed foods over a long period just has to be bad for you too. Too much sodium and additives/preservatives. I hypothesize that these additives are responsible for the spike in diseases and allergies that were realatively uncommon only 100 years ago. That and household chemicals. All test safe, but no one can test the cumulative concoction that we all subject ourselves to over decades.

I say to eat freshly made foods, which don't have to be filet and lobster, as often as possible, but harder to do aboard.


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## hellosailor

Forget the additives, look at the cans.
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1279489/
There's considerable debate and suspicion that lead, leaching from the newfangled CANNED foods that were supposed to keep one expedition alive, killed them. Or contributed to their deaths.
Today, almost anything acidic is "protected" with BPA lining in the cans. A chemical totally prohibited in some venues and totally unregulated in others, gee, there must be a lot of coin-flipping going on instead of scientific examination. One side says it is an endocrine disrupter and will confuse every "male? female?" process in your body, the other side says no, it was only tested in pre-pubescent kids, there's no human evidence of anything in adults. Except, it gets into your blood faster than secondhand smoke and you get a fresh dose with every can of whatever.
Of course the butter-margarine debate flipped over the years, and now, cholesterol isn't supposed to be quite so evil, but sugar may be the leading toxin peddled to the world?
And something in our wheat (which has all been so finely cross-bred that effectively it has been a GMO crop for decades) is causing _major _increases in wheat allergies and/or celiac disease.
Wouldn't it be simpler to figure out what was safe, if Starbucks started serving double-skinny henbane instead of coffee? Coffee, which is just now supposed to help keep your arteries healthy and clear of plaque, if you have up to five cups a day.


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## Don L

nothing like some thread drift


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## newhaul

Further drift its four cups a day and protects against Alzheimer's they say and dad drinks a pot a day and at 90 is still sharp as a tack


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## capt jgwinks

When I finally make the move, I don't think we'll be buying airline tickets. The kids will be welcome to visit, but we ain't going back to Snowland. Especially after these last two winters.


----------



## mbianka

Just finished getting my taxes done. While going over my expenses for the past year I pulled out some numbers for the boat expenses. Currently, I only live on board for about half a year so these numbers include winter storage, mooring fees, groceries and some cruise expenses for the six months. Came out to $988 per month. Call it $1000. Of course I had no major maintenance issues and/or airline expenses. Plus I was a "single handed sailor". No women or pets on board! YMMV.


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## chuck5499

hellosailor said:


> A lot depends on where you want to be. If you're not on Medicare, good medical insurance can still cost you $1000/month. Depending on your health and any pre-existing conditions, there's room for a lot of variation in that. And if you're outside the US, the whole picture changes again. Changes from year to year, too, as some countries are now requiring that you have your own insurance rather than burden them.
> 
> Hellosailor -- can you expand on this please? I guess we missed it somewhere along the line. In 7+ years visiting over 30 countries and wintering/hurricane season overing in the Carb and now the Med we have never been asked for health insurance information. If we were to go for residence maybe but not as cruisers. We do not carry health insurance except Medicare that we get as our age is a bit high. We pay for all our medical out of pocket and not that high. So please explain!


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## killarney_sailor

We also have never been asked about health insurance.


----------



## Minnewaska

Cuba is the only place I'm aware of that requires health insurance. It's one thing about that country that makes sense. Why should local citizens pay/subsidize visitor's medical care? 

Since US companies can't do business there, US insurance isn't accepted. I believe it's also one of the legal snags for a US citizen to visit Cuba, since they make you purchase travel health insurance at immigration for your stay. Technically, there is no prohibition from being in Cuba as a US citizen, you are prohibited from transacting business, even if paid by a third party.


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## hellsop

Minnewaska said:


> Eating canned and processed foods over a long period just has to be bad for you too. Too much sodium and additives/preservatives. I hypothesize that these additives are responsible for the spike in diseases and allergies that were realatively uncommon only 100 years ago. That and household chemicals. All test safe, but no one can test the cumulative concoction that we all subject ourselves to over decades.
> 
> I say to eat freshly made foods, which don't have to be filet and lobster, as often as possible, but harder to do aboard.


Heh. 100 years ago was the PEAK of canned and processed foods. It was the only way to get veg that weren't roots all winter. Putting things in tins is a 200-year-old invention at this point, and starting about 100 years ago is when refrigeration (including chilled transport of fresh fruits and veg) and freezing of UN-processed foods started.


----------



## travlin-easy

Geeze, I wonder why I'm not dead. I've been eating canned foods for the better part of 75 years, my brain still functions quite well, but like most folks my age, some body parts are not functioning as well as I would like, and yes, there are some body parts missing. Missing a couple disks in my back, gall bladder, had a double hernia repair, but by and large none of that could be related to eating canned foods. 

When I was young, about the same time John Paul Jones joined the Navy, I was exposed to all the stuff that, according to the USEPA, should have killed me. Most of those guys that made those claims are all dead. Maybe they should have eaten canned foods like us old codgers.

The only element that I was exposed to that will ultimately do me in is asbestos. Pretty high exposure while I was in the US Navy aboard the USS Newport News, a heavy cruiser built in the mid 1940s. All the steam pipes were covered with asbestos and we had to remove the old stuff and put on new asbestos. No protection whatsoever back then, the late 1950s. Back then I had a better chance of dying from lead (being shot at by bad guys) than anything else I knew of. Also had a good chance of dying while diving using a Mark 5 outfit, which I wasn't very fond of. And guess what? The US Navy used a lot of canned foods, too. All the fruits for making pies and other forms of consumption came in 5 gallon tins, all of which were soldered together. Well, most of the guys I was in the Navy with are still alive today, we're in out 70s and 80s, still doing a lot of things we did back then. 

Now, if it were not for modern food processing, packaging and handling, many of you would be suffering the pangs of various food poisonings. Breads and pastries would only last a couple days at most, fruits and vegetables would be filled with insect eggs, larvae and hatchlings, most meats would be rancid, finfish and shellfish would have to be consumed the same day they were caught, and no one would be able to enjoy foods from sources other than local. 

I suspect I'll read some responses to the above such as "My grandfather lived on a farm, walked 10 miles through chest deep snow to the grocery store, and only at organic foods. He died at age 108, shot in the back of the head by a jealous husband while leaping from a second story window and an 18-year old gal screaming don't leave me - don't leave me." Well, (true story) my grandfather was a bootleg whiskey maker, lived on a small farm, all the crops went to making booze, and his shelves were stocked with canned goods, including canned meats. He was 97 when he died. Go figure.

Cheers,

Gary


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## hellosailor

Gary, you were born after lead and tin weren't so blatant in cans anymore, and before BPA got used on them. You grew up in the Golden Age when even antibiotics worked and worked well.

However, the BPA, as an estrogen disrupter, might either be protecting you from prostate cancer (if men live long enough, the _only _ones who don't suffer from it are castrati's) or perhaps, it has raised your voice an octave and thrown a wrench into your vocal career. Seems to be some confusion over that.

But I have no problem baking a bread with no preservatives except a dose of salt, that will last over a week without any fuzzy stuff growing on it. The trick is, simply not to HANDLE it with your hands directly, since they are normally loaded with critters.

Of course 50 years ago the now-normal science of epigenetics hadn't been discovered, and geneticists have only recently been acknowledging that pretty much every chemical in our environment has a direct physical chance to change our genetics. And WILL change them, by simple exposure. The only question being how much of what can cause which changes.

That much they ARE all agreed on.


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## Minnewaska

My grandmother lived to 97, smoked every day and died from natural causes, not heart or lung disease. That proves nothing about the safety of cigarettes. 

The proliferation of processed foods in American culture has a pretty clear correlation to obesity and related diseases. While I don't agree with Bloomberg's government driven soda ban, he was right that it is a scourge. I still believe (hypothesize) that the concoction of chemicals across our food supply, which is much more prevent than it was in WWII, is causing systemic illnesses overall, not for every single user. This impact is on the youngest of our current population, not the oldest.

If you dig frozen dinners and canned food, I fully support your right to eat them.


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## Don L

I'll drift some:

I don't feel the foods we are eating is really the issue, the problem is that that we sit on asses more now days.


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## MarkofSeaLife

Minnewaska said:


> My grandmother lived to 97, smoked every day and died from natural causes, not heart or lung disease. That proves nothing about the safety of cigarettes.
> 
> The proliferation of processed foods in American culture has a pretty clear correlation to obesity and related diseases. While I don't agree with Bloomberg's government driven soda ban, he was right that it is a scourge. I still believe (hypothesize) that the concoction of chemicals across our food supply, which is much more prevent than it was in WWII, is causing systemic illnesses overall, not for every single user. This impact is on the youngest of our current population, not the oldest.
> 
> If you dig frozen dinners and canned food, I fully support your right to eat them.


I agree with your right to eat crap... But as it costs everyone to support the eaters in hospital I support governments rights to tax the crap out of crap.

In Australia cigarettes are now over $20 per pack. In the Caribbean they are $2 per pack. More people here smoke than in Australia.

Coke kills people. Tax sweet drinks just like sensible countries tax smokes.

Mark


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## hpeer

Don,

It sounds like you may like this site. It's a retirement calculator, but far more nuanced than any other I have seen. It takes a while to get the hang of it, but fool around with it a bit. I think you may like it.

FIRECalc: A different kind of retirement calculator


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## Capt Len

Grew up healthy eating preserved food. Glass, not cans. Meat ,fish ,veggies. No salt and self grown. Lead from cans probably reduces IQ more than kills you False estrogene from plastic .Way too much salt in most foods and sugar consumption is off the scale. Figure that you die stupid,diabetic and obese of heart failure.(with large breasts). Self inflicted and personal. Might as well drink to compensate.


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## MikeOReilly

MarkofSeaLife said:


> I agree with your right to eat crap... But as it costs everyone to support the eaters in hospital I support governments rights to tax the crap out of crap.
> 
> In Australia cigarettes are now over $20 per pack. In the Caribbean they are $2 per pack. More people here smoke than in Australia.
> 
> Coke kills people. Tax sweet drinks just like sensible countries tax smokes.


Yeah, but there are a lot of practices that produce higher life risks. Should we ban all risky behaviour? Drinking booze is clearly bad. Should this be banned? Not eating enough veggies and fruit ... how about taxing meat eaters? Sailing over the horizon is probably more risky than bowling. Heck, if we really cared about lowing costs to society we'd ban private vehicles, and force everyone to take public transit. Just walking in a large city is a dangerous activity.

That's the problem with public health; who decides what is bad?


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## travlin-easy

Ain't it amazing how many folks sincerely believe that if you tax something those taxed will make things better.  Maryland has a rain tax and a poop tax, both of which are supposed to clean up Chesapeake Bay. Anyone that believes that will work obviously believes in the tooth fairy.

Gary


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## blowinstink

MikeOReilly said:


> Yeah, but there are a lot of practices that produce higher life risks. Should we ban all risky behaviour? Drinking booze is clearly bad. Should this be banned? Not eating enough veggies and fruit ... how about taxing meat eaters? Sailing over the horizon is probably more risky than bowling. Heck, if we really cared about lowing costs to society we'd ban private vehicles, and force everyone to take public transit. Just walking in a large city is a dangerous activity.
> 
> That's the problem with public health; who decides what is bad?


Did someone say "ban" (other than you)? I think Mark said "tax" behaviors which are costly to society. Pretty simple idea really . . . assign an activity its true cost. As for who decides what is costly . . . how about scientists?


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## MikeOReilly

blowinstink said:


> Did someone say "ban" (other than you)? I think Mark said "tax" behaviors which are costly to society. Pretty simple idea really . . . assign an activity its true cost. As for who decides what is costly . . . how about scientists?


I'm all for real research guiding public policy decisions. Ban, tax ... same thing. You're trying to alter behaviour; one is with hard force, the other with soft. Same thing.

My point is where we draw the lines. If we, as a society, want to dissuade all individual activity that may have a broader impact on the collective, then we are headed down a rather slippery utopian (or dystopian) slope. It quickly leads to no SAR, b/c we don't allow people to sail beyond the horizon -- heck, we don't let people sail at all. Or we tax them sufficiently so they pay the whole cost of SAR, which basically makes risky activity the purview of the rich.

I prefer to live in a society that is free enough to allow some level of risky behaviour. It's obviously a vast zone of grey. I can't give you a fine line of where things tip over such that we ban this specific stupid behaviour (like smoking, or motorcycling without a helmet). That's the job of adult societal discussion.


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## mr_f

travlineasy said:


> Ain't it amazing how many folks sincerely believe that if you tax something those taxed will make things better.  Maryland has a rain tax and a poop tax, both of which are supposed to clean up Chesapeake Bay. Anyone that believes that will work obviously believes in the tooth fairy.
> 
> Gary


I'm curious Gary. What is it that you object to about the "rain tax"? Impervious surfaces increase the amount of pollutants that enter the bay. Taxing impervious surfaces (which is what the tax was supposed to do) will either provide incentives to reduce the number of impervious surfaces, or will provide funds to better treat the resulting runoff. Either way, it works towards reducing bay pollution.

If it is about implementation, I can't disagree with you. There seems to be a real lack of clarity on how the tax should be applied and how the funds should be used. But, to me, that does not suggest the tax was a bad idea, just that the idiots in charge still have some work to do. There are, of course, other solutions: like attempt to reduce the amount of pollution generated in the first place.

As for the "poop tax", I assume you are referring to the Chesapeake Bay Restoration Fee, known as the "flush tax", which does not seem to have similar implementation problems. Funds go directly to upgrading all 67 major state sewage treatment plants "to the enhanced nutrient removal process to reduce the load of nitrogen and phosphorus discharged into the Chesapeake and its tributaries." The number of times I have seen sailnet members use the miserable state of sewage treatment as a justification for boaters dumping directly overboard, I am truly shocked to see anyone opposed to such a tax.

For now, I will keep my beliefs on the tooth fairy to myself.


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## chuck5499

This thread has way out used it's usefulness - maybe it is time for the mods to shut it down - if you want to talk freedom and taxes start a new thread - same with eating canned food.


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## aeventyr60

Don0190 said:


> nothing like some thread drift


Since we are drifting along.....ran into an old cruising friend who had to be hospitalized in Langkawi, Malaysia two weeks ago. Fours days in the hospital was a whopping, get this, hold on to your shorts,.....$300, yes THREE hundred US of A dollars.... including follow up medical care. BTW, the doctor has aN Ozzie med degree. I won't mention the medical care, as it involved a place where the sun don't shine. 
So my advice to you potential cruisers, is to get far, far, far, as remotely possible, from the unconsciousable scam being perpetuated on you by the North American medical system.


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## jerryrlitton

You want to see thread drift? Check this out....this is me, right now...









Here is the problem, I am in Nigeria, waiting for VIPs. If the world was going to get an enema it would be very close to where I am right this second. The other part of the problem is my boat, it is in Langkawi, Malaysia...*without me* so you guys can complain all you want about taxes. At least you are sailing. The grass may be greener but I am in the dust. Stay sailing my friends. 
Me
8°26'07.2"N 4°29'39.5"E

http://goo.gl/maps/6y25F

Sent from my LG Mobile


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## aeventyr60

jerryrlitton said:


> You want to see thread drift? Check this out....this is me, right now...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the problem, I am in Nigeria, waiting for VIPs. If the world was going to get an enema it would be very close to where I am right this second. The other part of the problem is my boat, it is in Langkawi, Malaysia...*without me* so you guys can complain all you want about taxes. At least you are sailing. The grass may be greener but I am in the dust. Stay sailing my friends.
> Me
> 8°26'07.2"N 4°29'39.5"E
> 
> http://goo.gl/maps/6y25F
> 
> Sent from my LG Mobile


Thanks for the keys to your new yacht Jerry! Great to see you in Langkawi! Will be my pleasure to prepare Tempation for it's voyage to Thailand. Wish you were here!

PS...Is it OK for me to take along some Swedish backpacker chicks I just met?


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## jerryrlitton

aeventyr60 said:


> Thanks for the keys to your new yacht Jerry! Great to see you in Langkawi! Will be my pleasure to prepare Tempation for it's voyage to Thailand. Wish you were here!
> 
> PS...Is it OK for me to take along some Swedish backpacker chicks I just met?


Only if you take pictures.


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## Don L

MarkofSeaLife said:


> I agree with your right to eat crap... But as it costs everyone to support the eaters in hospital I support governments rights to tax the crap out of crap.


Well this directly affects the $3k/mo cruising budget 

How could I expect to make it on that amount if they started taxing beer at $10/bottle.


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## aeventyr60

Don0190 said:


> Well this directly affects the $3k/mo cruising budget
> 
> How could I expect to make it on that amount if they started taxing beer at $10/bottle.


Duty free ports are just a voyage away...but beware of the highly lace palm oil confectioneries once your here..could lead to a double by pass, but wait, no worries, it's only a 15K procedure in Penang...


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## jerryrlitton

I hope this was not the last time I see the boat. After you arrive in Phuket just clean it out...and about the pictures, I want HD video ref the Swedish backpackers. Also thank you for helping me out with this. Seriously


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## jerryrlitton

I always said life is about the stories you can tell. So I will blow the hell out of the budget this month....think of the stories.....


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## travlin-easy

mr f, I have written extensively about both taxes, neither of which has, or will do anything to actually clean up Chesapeake Bay. The Rain Tax in particular, does absolutely nothing but penalize businesses and individuals for paving porous surfaces, all of which are completely surrounded by either dense lawns that absorb any and all run-off, or forested lands, that also absorb the runoff. In fact, there is a lot of research that was conducted many years ago that clearly shows those lawns filter far better than any forest lands and Maryland legislators rejected a bill that would mandate a 20-foot grass buffer zone around all tilled and no-till agricultural lands, a measure that would have prevented an enormous amount of run-off from entering the bay and it's tributaries.

That flush tax, which is in addition to all the other wastewater fees, was directed at homeowners that have failing septic systems, something that is fairly rare if you do your research. Additionally, when your septic system does fail, as my next door neighbor's did because he used chlorine bleach in every wash load, the red tape a person has to go through to get that updated septic system was so horrible that after three days of filling out forms and making phone calls that went unanswered, he gave up and spent $12,000 on a conventional system. The state agency that was supposed to provide assistance never did return any of his dozen telephone calls.

My major objection to those, and many other taxes is that they never accomplish anything other than create another bureaucracy and a bunch of pork barrel jobs, all at the expense of the low and middle income taxpayers. The rain tax has actually caused several profitable small business owners to either go out of business, or move their businesses to other states that do not penalize small businesses like Maryland does on a regular basis. I have a friend that has a body fender shop that sits upon 1-acre of paved ground. He pays more than $100,000 in additional taxes each year for his impervious surfaces and he has a collection pond for capturing the run-off. None of that runoff goes anywhere but into the collection pond where it evaporates. The only way he can recoup that tax money is to raise his prices, a move that would benefit no one but those holding down those pork barrel jobs. It will do nothing to clean up the bay. 

One more thing I though I should add. There have been studies conducted at taxpayer expense on Chesapeake Bay since the 1890s. All of those studies claimed they would cleanse the waters of Chesapeake Bay - none EVER did. Keep in mind that I'm an old guy and in the early 1960s was a commercial diver. At that time I was diving for oysters in Chesapeake Bay and harvesting them by hand using a pry bar from among the pilings of the old Chesapeake Bay Bridge at Sandy Point. The underwater visibility back then averaged about 20 feet during October. Since then, more than $12-billion taxpayer dollars has been spent on the Chesapeake Bay Cleanup program and associated research projects. Today, during the month of October, the underwater visibility at the same location is less than 6 inches, there are no longer any oysters there and any location where there are oysters there will be someone there tonging and dredging the bottom to remove them. And then, taxpayer dollars will be used to replenish them. 

Keep putting those teeth under your pillow - you'll eventually receive enough quarters to buy a huge sailing yacht. And, then you can sail that boat in the pristine waters of Chesapeake Bay that was cleansed by all those tax dollars you laid out. Get my drift.

All the best,

Gary


----------



## mr_f

travlineasy said:


> mr f, I have written extensively about both taxes, neither of which has, or will do anything to actually clean up Chesapeake Bay. The Rain Tax in particular, does absolutely nothing but penalize businesses and individuals for paving porous surfaces, all of which are completely surrounded by either dense lawns that absorb any and all run-off, or forested lands, that also absorb the runoff. In fact, there is a lot of research that was conducted many years ago that clearly shows those lawns filter far better than any forest lands and Maryland legislators rejected a bill that would mandate a 20-foot grass buffer zone around all tilled and no-till agricultural lands, a measure that would have prevented an enormous amount of run-off from entering the bay and it's tributaries.
> 
> That flush tax, which is in addition to all the other wastewater fees, was directed at homeowners that have failing septic systems, something that is fairly rare if you do your research. Additionally, when your septic system does fail, as my next door neighbor's did because he used chlorine bleach in every wash load, the red tape a person has to go through to get that updated septic system was so horrible that after three days of filling out forms and making phone calls that went unanswered, he gave up and spent $12,000 on a conventional system. The state agency that was supposed to provide assistance never did return any of his dozen telephone calls.
> 
> My major objection to those, and many other taxes is that they never accomplish anything other than create another bureaucracy and a bunch of pork barrel jobs, all at the expense of the low and middle income taxpayers. The rain tax has actually caused several profitable small business owners to either go out of business, or move their businesses to other states that do not penalize small businesses like Maryland does on a regular basis. I have a friend that has a body fender shop that sits upon 1-acre of paved ground. He pays more than $100,000 in additional taxes each year for his impervious surfaces and he has a collection pond for capturing the run-off. None of that runoff goes anywhere but into the collection pond where it evaporates. The only way he can recoup that tax money is to raise his prices, a move that would benefit no one but those holding down those pork barrel jobs. It will do nothing to clean up the bay.
> 
> One more thing I though I should add. There have been studies conducted at taxpayer expense on Chesapeake Bay since the 1890s. All of those studies claimed they would cleanse the waters of Chesapeake Bay - none EVER did. Keep in mind that I'm an old guy and in the early 1960s was a commercial diver. At that time I was diving for oysters in Chesapeake Bay and harvesting them by hand using a pry bar from among the pilings of the old Chesapeake Bay Bridge at Sandy Point. The underwater visibility back then averaged about 20 feet during October. Since then, more than $12-billion taxpayer dollars has been spent on the Chesapeake Bay Cleanup program and associated research projects. Today, during the month of October, the underwater visibility at the same location is less than 6 inches, there are no longer any oysters there and any location where there are oysters there will be someone there tonging and dredging the bottom to remove them. And then, taxpayer dollars will be used to replenish them.
> 
> Keep putting those teeth under your pillow - you'll eventually receive enough quarters to buy a huge sailing yacht. And, then you can sail that boat in the pristine waters of Chesapeake Bay that was cleansed by all those tax dollars you laid out. Get my drift.
> 
> All the best,
> 
> Gary


Gary,

I have already been admonished about contributing to the thread drift towards taxes, so I will leave this, although I would enjoy discussing further in a more appropriate venue. Things are not as you describe: runoff from impervious surfaces is a real problem; the flush tax is not aimed at septic users (80% of the tax is paid by public sewer users); and it is actually making a difference (around half of the sewage treatment plants have been upgraded -- on track to upgrade the remainder.) Will the bay end up pristine? Of course not. Will it help?

I am not sure I am catching your drift. Do you think the tooth fairy will clean up the bay if we decide not to fund upgrades to public infrastructure?


----------



## hellosailor

Gary-
Most of us east coasters know "Mary Land" as the fine little speedbump on I-95 that reduces their speed limit by 10mph just to raise ticket revenues.
Coupla years ago they also made the news for creating three "School Zones" because speeding in a school zone doubles the fine.
And the kicker? They created the school zones in areas where there are no adjacent schools, and no residences, so there are no schoolkids either. Just, oddly enough, double fines.

So, you know, making money by regulating things that don't exist? Yeah, they've got that down to an art form. You don't want to know what paperwork the tooth faerie has to go through, before she can recycle a single tooth there!


----------



## travlin-easy

Mr f, you've been paying for those infrastructure improvements since the first day you lived in Maryland. Guess what, most of those payments went into the general fund and were not directed at wastewater treatment plant upgrades. Instead, they went into pork barrel jobs.

As for the tooth fairy cleaning up the bay, you have a better shot at that than any of the programs that have been in place for more than a century. And, that is clearly evidenced by a huge number of agencies.

I got in trouble for putting this statement in print, but only because the truth hurts. That statement was "Every time there is a new baby born in the Chesapeake Bay watershed, that baby poops in Chesapeake Bay, and that baby produces many, many more babies that all poop in Chesapeake Bay. Nearly all of the water flowing down the Susquehanna and Potomac Rivers is completely recycled. If the good folks in Harrisburg don't flush their toilets, Havre de Grace, Port Deposit, Baltimore and many other municipalities wouldn't have any drinking water." 

Yes, it's true, the residents of all those cities are drinking recycled wastewater." I confirmed this with the EPA before I put it in print, but the $hit hit the fan when it was published. It was part of a major story I wrote about the quality of the nations waterways. It took two years of investigation to put t he articles together and believe me, there was very little cooperation from the feds and states - they really don't want people to know this stuff. What they want you know is in the news releases put out by their PR departments.

Now, the question you must ask yourself is why does the federal or a state government NEED a PR department? And, how many taxpayer dollars does that PR department cost annually? You could take that money from one county in Maryland and buy that megayacht you've always dreamed of owning.

That's my drift,

Gary


----------



## mr_f

travlineasy said:


> Mr f, you've been paying for those infrastructure improvements since the first day you lived in Maryland. Guess what, most of those payments went into the general fund and were not directed at wastewater treatment plant upgrades. Instead, they went into pork barrel jobs.
> 
> As for the tooth fairy cleaning up the bay, you have a better shot at that than any of the programs that have been in place for more than a century. And, that is clearly evidenced by a huge number of agencies.
> 
> I got in trouble for putting this statement in print, but only because the truth hurts. That statement was "Every time there is a new baby born in the Chesapeake Bay watershed, that baby poops in Chesapeake Bay, and that baby produces many, many more babies that all poop in Chesapeake Bay. Nearly all of the water flowing down the Susquehanna and Potomac Rivers is completely recycled. If the good folks in Harrisburg don't flush their toilets, Havre de Grace, Port Deposit, Baltimore and many other municipalities wouldn't have any drinking water."
> 
> Yes, it's true, the residents of all those cities are drinking recycled wastewater." I confirmed this with the EPA before I put it in print, but the $hit hit the fan when it was published. It was part of a major story I wrote about the quality of the nations waterways. It took two years of investigation to put t he articles together and believe me, there was very little cooperation from the feds and states - they really don't want people to know this stuff. What they want you know is in the news releases put out by their PR departments.
> 
> Now, the question you must ask yourself is why does the federal or a state government NEED a PR department? And, how many taxpayer dollars does that PR department cost annually? You could take that money from one county in Maryland and buy that megayacht you've always dreamed of owning.
> 
> That's my drift,
> 
> Gary


The flush tax does not go into the general fund. From the bill:



> The Bay Restoration Fund will consist of revenue generated from the bay restoration fee (as described above), net proceeds of bonds issued by WQFA, interest or other investment income, and any additional money from any other sources. Money in the fund may not revert or be transferred to the general fund.


Here is the status of the facility upgrades being funded by said fund:

http://www.mde.state.md.us/programs...nts/WWTP_Update_for_BayStat_December_2014.pdf

And here are charts explaining some of the benefits of the improvements

http://www.mde.state.md.us/programs/Water/BayRestorationFund/Documents/TNchart.pdf
http://www.mde.state.md.us/programs/Water/BayRestorationFund/Documents/TPChartfinal.pdf

My guess is that govt needs a PR department because of the large amount of disinformation being disseminated by people such as yourself.


----------



## BMLipiec

Let me get back to the thread topic before I digress...

We have been cruising in Mexico (Sea of Cortez) since November and have been able to easily stay under a $3000 per month budget. Granted, this has only been a little over 4 months, but we frequently stay in marinas, eat out, have boat insurance, and have had to use the health care system here. In other words, we feel we have a pretty good standard of living and are not just squeaking by. For those looking to cruise on a smaller budget I think a few factors make a difference.

1) We have a smaller boat (34'). If you plan on staying in marinas for any length of time, this matters. Bigger boats cost more money to keep in a marina, or haul out for repairs. We initially planned to live off the hook, but when we got to La Paz we liked having a slip and all the amenities that come with it. We use it as a home base and go out to the islands here for a couple of weeks, come back, re-provision, use the pool and hot tub, use the marina wi-fi, spend time in La Paz, and then head out again for another couple of weeks. Last week we called about getting a slip in San Carlos during hurricane season while we fly back for a wedding. All of the 40' slips were booked and had a long waiting list. However, we were able to get a 32' slip, no problem. A smaller boat is also cheaper to outfit. The standing and running rigging, anchor tackle, sails, etc are all smaller and cost significantly less. I could afford to buy top quality sails, anchor gear, etc for a 34’ boat, I would not have for a 40 footer. It all adds up, and will nickle and dime you to death.

2) Location. Mexico is much cheaper than the states (except for slips, which average more than San Diego for some reason). Food is much cheaper here, so we can eat out more often. We just went to the farmers market today and bought a weeks worth of vegetables for less than $10. Taxis are cheaper. Health care - my wife had emergency eye surgery (retinal tear) and it cost $450 dollars for top quality care. If money is really an issue, Mexico is hard to beat. By the way, we feel safer walking the streets here than anywhere in downtown LA.

3) Boat modification. I agree with those people that say go cruising for a year and then figure out what you need. However, I didn’t do that. We did A LOT of research, agonized over every decision and did everything prior to leaving while I still had a job. For us, that was key. I still had an income coming in and could afford the endless trips to West Marine. I can’t do that now, it would bankrupt us. Also, boat parts are really expensive here – they buy from West Marine, mark it up, add shipping and %16 sales tax. So far, our boat has been almost trouble free. We met a couple here that is ready to quit after five months, because they haven’t stopped fixing things since they got here. They are almost broke and are not having fun. We took a risk adding equipment that we might not have needed, but so far that hasn’t been the case. Plus, I did everything myself saving me thousands of dollars. I also know the ship inside and out and have most of the necessary specialty tools needed – like a stubby 24mm box wrench needed for the engine mounts. I wouldn’t have known that was needed if I had paid someone else to change or adjust my engine mounts. Also, if given the choice I went with simple, proven, high quality gear – let people with money experiment with the latest, greatest gadgets. Lastly, I leaned towards oversizing equipment – nothing too strong ever broke.

4) Get rid of debt. We paid off the boat. We sold our house. Sold all of our furniture and other stuff. Sold one of our vehicles (we kept my truck, which is paid off and stored with my Dad). We have almost no monthly payments. Having no debt hanging over our heads is to us, freedom. 

Now I’ll digress.
It amazes me that the cruising community (who rejects the rat race, lives on our own terms, free to live and go where we want when we want, takes complete responsibility for our ship and crew, independent thinkers and doers) can side with the nanny state crowd. To say that because it costs society (ie: health care costs for sugar, smoking, etc) it must be regulated (taxed, whatever) is crazy, and where do you draw that line? ANYTHING can be regulated on that theory. After the national news coverage of the cruising family that was rescued off the coast of Mexico awhile back, every one of my non-sailing friends made it a point to tell me how crazy they were and why do we let people do that? My point is that the same argument can (and will eventually) be made for us. It costs society to have and operate a Coast Guard. To save taxpayer dollars and lives the government should regulate cruisers by mandating the size and type of vessel for offshore use, the number of crew, training requirements (offshore classes, captains licenses), mandatory equipment and electronics, vessel inspections, recurring testing, etc. That would definitely reduce the number of Coast Guard rescues and probably save lives, but you would also make it cost prohibitive to the vast majority of us. Cruising would become similar to the America’s Cup race – only the wealthy need apply. No thank you, I’m an adult that can make decisions and take responsibility for those decisions.


----------



## travlin-easy

You are right, the flush tax does not go directly into the general fund, same as the transportation trust fund. Guess what, they get raided all the time. Maybe it's time for you to spend some time in Annapolis at the hearings and pay your dues like I did. I spent 20 plus years covering the Annapolis beat, and just because you saw something on the Internet doesn't make it a fact. 

Have a fun day,

Gary


----------



## TakeFive

hellosailor said:


> Gary-
> Most of us east coasters know "Mary Land" as the fine little speedbump on I-95 that reduces their speed limit by 10mph just to raise ticket revenues...


The speed limit on I-95 in Delaware is 55. Are you telling me that in Maryland it is 45?

Starting your whole rant with a blatant falsehood detracts from your whole story. I drive through Maryland all the time and have never seen any evidence that I-95 speed enforcement is any different than elsewhere. But then, I tend to obey the traffic laws, so maybe I'm not a representative example.


----------



## hellsop

Minnewaska said:


> The proliferation of processed foods in American culture has a pretty clear correlation to obesity and related diseases.


Correlation != causation. There's a perfect correlation between organic food sales and autism rates too, but no one seriously proposes that one influences the other.


----------



## mr_f

travlineasy said:


> You are right, the flush tax does not go directly into the general fund, same as the transportation trust fund. Guess what, they get raided all the time. Maybe it's time for you to spend some time in Annapolis at the hearings and pay your dues like I did. I spent 20 plus years covering the Annapolis beat, and just because you saw something on the Internet doesn't make it a fact.
> 
> Have a fun day,
> 
> Gary


So, you question my sources. Fine. Do you have any sources that contradict them? Do you have any sources at all? What evidence do you have that these funds have been raided? After all, the intended projects are being completed with these funds. How could that have happened if the funds were sent elsewhere?

Seems a bit strange to attack my understanding of the issue (when you do not know me at all) when as near as I can tell, you are simply pulling falsehoods out of your backside. It is true that reading something on the internet does not make it true. However, primary sources (like the actual bill, the government reports on the status of projects, etc.) are far more likely to be true than some guy just making stuff up because he "spent 20 plus years on the Annapolis beat" and for some inexplicable reason is opposed to paying his share of dealing with the large amount of sewage created by the people of his state.


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## hellosailor

Takefive-
You mean, I've confused Mary Land with Delaware ?!? Or maybe, things changed over the years.

Either way, at least one of them seems to grossly disagree with Mr. Eisenhower's design team, as to what the speed limit on that road can safely be.

If confusing those two states is the greatest mistake I've ever made, by all means, set Woodward & Bernstein on to fact-checking everything I misrecall!


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## TakeFive

hellosailor said:


> Takefive-
> You mean, I've confused Mary Land with Delaware ?!? Or maybe, things changed over the years...


I mean exactly what I said. When you start your rant with a falsehood, you undermine your credibility so that the whole story is called into question. Whether you confused your states or forgot that we're in the 21st century is for you to figure out. I was just pointing out that your statement was not supported by the facts, even though you thought it had an element of "truthiness." Truthiness - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.


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## travlin-easy

Mr f, the only thing I have is transcripts and taped interviews with senators and delegates during the hearings, but you are obviously right about the entire issue because you've read the entire bill, including the fine print, and the bay is becoming pristine as I type this. 

Keep paying those taxes and wake me up when you can see the bottom of the bay 20 feet beneath the surface,

Gary


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## hellsop

Heh. Lake Michigan's got parts where you can see 90 feet down now. But it's quagga mussels, not legislation, that's doing it.


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## jerryrlitton

WTF guys, I thought I was causing thread drift with a few pictures. If not careful the mods will regulate this thread to the dark reaches of the politics war religion and guns. It will not see daylight there.


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## Don L

Crazy thread drifters done killed my thread again 

I was looking at my cruising kitty spreadsheet today and thought it was a worry that it ran out of money at 80, then I noticed I had put in $4k/mo and accidently saved it. I fixed it and am now on path to boat party a long time.

So which country will take the best care of an old broken down US $4k/mo cruiser? After all there is going to come a time that with my experience it is going to be in major demand from the hotties.


BTW - Mark J will never know this lesson.


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## aeventyr60

For a boat buck you could have a different hottie every night for a month in some parts of the world...That item in excel might cause your system to crash....


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## mbianka

aeventyr60 said:


> For a boat buck you could have a different hottie every night for a month in some parts of the world...That item in excel might cause your system to crash....


Always remember:
"You can't buy love! But, it is possible to rent it."


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## jerryrlitton

Don0190 said:


> Crazy thread drifters done killed my thread again
> 
> I was looking at my cruising kitty spreadsheet today and thought it was a worry that it ran out of money at 80, then I noticed I had put in $4k/mo and accidently saved it. I fixed it and am now on path to boat party a long time.
> 
> So which country will take the best care of an old broken down US $4k/mo cruiser? After all there is going to come a time that with my experience it is going to be in major demand from the hotties.
> 
> BTW - Mark J will never know this lesson.


Without a doubt it will be Thailand. Between Singapore for batteries and a few other things, Malaysia for the teak, good place to haul out, and good labor, Thailand is but a few days sail away from these places. Nice water for diving, great food cheap, very pretty girls, and very reasonable medical. Very pretty place, many things to do if you open yourself a bit, and a lot of history. Just stay away from hanging out full time at some of the yacht clubs. This can be expensive and will suck the life from you. Thailand has some great cruising and diving spots. You won't get bored. The PI, Sumatra, Borneo are right around the corner. No doubts in my mind, this is the place. Also there are some things that don't belong on a spread sheet. Don't get me wrong though, if you have 4k burning a hole in your pocket you can spend it. However if you live right, you can live very very well and stay within your budget. And best of all, the SN east coasters will be jealous.


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## Capt Len

Jerry, glad you've made your choice. Missed you at the annual summit SN meeting on Koh Jum. Actually it was a short quarum of one .Naren ,our Mongolian songstress got tired of waiting for a ship to come in . Left for China. Snooze, yu loose. Our favourite part of the world is quickly filling up with expat types from all over who realize they can retire there on a really small income. Some even have boats. I can attest to the high quality and affordability of the new Krabi hospital as I spent a week there in ICU after we last met . Don, all that experience is not a valuable commodity. The hotties are just as keen to make their own mistakes as they always were.Still, we can stand on our wallets and hope.


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## Johnniegee

Just read the whole thread and I have to thank all who posted because now I believe I will have enough to sail into the sunset. I think when it is time to cut the dock lines have some money in your back pocket and if it lasts a while you are good to go.... if not time to regroup.


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## Capt Len

If you're not selling the dock lines when you sail into the sunset, regrouping may come early. Perhaps a figure of speech??


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## Don L

Johnniegee said:


> Just read the whole thread and I have to thank all who posted because now I believe I will have enough to sail into the sunset. I think when it is time to cut the dock lines have some money in your back pocket and if it lasts a while you are good to go.... if not time to regroup.


To just be a useful post on the thread:

How old are you going to be then and what is your budget for cutting the dock lines?


----------



## blowinstink

aeventyr60 said:


> For a boat buck you could have a different hottie every night for a month in some parts of the world...That item in excel might cause your system to crash....


Ahem, strike "excel" . . .. Should read: that item might cause your system to crash.


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## paradiselostparrot

Alex Dorsey and his wife spend 600 a month for two. Chuck and his wife 1200 including premium beer. Emerald Steel crew crew is in the South Pacific now on what appears to be under 1000 a month. And I can see all these people on the internet. Talk of 5k a month budgets and flying home every month to see the kids is all flubbery and self aggrandizement. I don't see these people doing anything more than a 6 month cruise to Chicken Harbour then back home to mother. Just my opinion. Which is not even worth 2 cents.


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## jerryrlitton

blowinstink said:


> Ahem, strike "excel" . . .. Should read: that item might cause your system to crash.


Don't strike "excel". The part about the hottie does not belong on a _spread sheet_. I crack myself up.


----------



## sneuman

ebs001 said:


> Good person financial management should always involve having a budget whether your cruising on a boat or living on land. Good financial management means keeping track of expenses. I'm a crappy money manager but my wife on the other hand has everything budgeted and tracks *all* spending using Quicken program.
> 
> Making a proper budget takes a lot of work initially to get figures which make sense and cover all expenses. Then a constant review is necessary to ensure the budgeted amounts reasonably reflect actual expenditures.
> 
> Can a couple live on $3,000 per month? Sure, but is that the way your going to live or is it way high? Each couple has to figure it out for their comfort level.
> 
> Some expenses:
> -food
> -insurance
> -medical
> -fuel
> -maintenance
> -repairs
> -marina
> -moorings
> -booze
> -entertainment
> -dining out
> -communications; cell phones and internet
> -port entry fees
> -land travel
> -water
> -charitable donations
> 
> On top of these there are expenses involved in land based stuff.


Odd, they specifically single out customs fees. While I can understand that they're more than they'd expected, it wasn't what broke their budget, from the looks of it. What's with all that money spent for clothes? Could they not have economized on marina stays? And what is "misc. boat supplies" and how does it cost $14,000/a year? Holy cow! I can't say it's out of line because I haven't done it yet, but it seems their budget requires a bit more explanation!

It also seems to point out the downside of "too much boat" that costs nearly $6,000/year in insurance (not to mention the $14K in "misc. boat supplies").


----------



## Don L

I've been playing with my spreadsheet and it is interesting how $500 here or there can effect the whole thing.

The other thing I'm finding is that a lot of smaller budgets people use to support their boating dream have a lot of "not counting X" things. I think X is a lot more that people credit it with.


----------



## newhaul

jerryrlitton said:


> Don't strike "excel". The part about the hottie does not belong on a _spread sheet_. I crack myself up.


Your right jerry the hotties don't belong on a spread sheet unless its a sheet spread on deck :devil


----------



## windnrock

41' sailboat. Two adults. Travel up and down the east coast and into the islands each year. Reasonable insurance (international), health and vessel. All living expenses, everything, the whole enchilada, as in "what we spent last year".....$28,750. Divide that by twelve and you have $2396 per month. Over the last 3 years that number has risen slightly from a low of $2130 per month. Budgeting is not difficult, using some restraint can be. Constant analysis is mandatory and doing work ourselves, anchoring and not using the engine are significant ways to make adjustments. Knowing ahead of time whether you can go spend $100 at a restaurant is important. Understanding your costs both immediate and amortized things like repairs and maintenance, insurance as well as travel (air) makes daily decisions like topping off fuel tanks or getting that second case of beer easy. You will need to paint the hull sometime, do you pay someone $800 to $1000 (my boat) or do it yourself for $450? When faced with a wedding that came up rather quickly, Goodwill had everything we needed to dress up, I mean designer stuff. Both of us were fully clothed for $65. Dress pants and shirt, sport coat, dress, shawl and a pair of women's shoes. Folks, it can be done and not difficultly.


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## Minnewaska

windnrock said:


> .......When faced with a wedding that came up rather quickly, Goodwill had everything we needed to dress up, I mean designer stuff. Both of us were fully clothed for $65. Dress pants and shirt, sport coat, dress, shawl and a pair of women's shoes. Folks, it can be done and not difficultly.


I routinely donate to Goodwill or an equivalent. I've never considered that the beneficiary was going to be a yacht owner. 

I always thought my old suit was going to help someone less fortunate go on a job interview or dress for work. I'm certainly not saying you're doing anything wrong. The money you spent presumably went to a good use. Although, I'm not always sure that's the case with these well intended operations.


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## aeventyr60

Goodwill a great resource for used luggage to tote all the crap back to the boat. Will be looking for a slightly used American Tourister with wheels that can hold my baggage allowance of 30 Kgs.


----------



## Brent Swain

Don0190 said:


> Determining a cruising budget and trying to find out if it will work seems like one of the most important parts of cruising, yet is one of the hardest to find any answers on. Before I got into sailing I spent 2 years researching the cost issues and in the end kind of just gave up and placed myself on a path to cruising anyway.
> 
> The question frequently becomes all jammed up with "it depends" and "it costs whatever you can afford to spend" answers. Which are true, but of little value for planning. Planning becomes even more important for those not so young when the decision to stop working and go cruising equals an end to a career and little chance of returning to work at anywhere near the level they were when they sailed off. The goal becomes balancing leaving while young enough to get the most of of cruising, while working long enough to not run out of money.
> 
> But I'm becoming more and more job burnt out and more and more caught in the dream, so find myself looking for the answer. To do it I spend lots of time reading though blogs looking for what people are spending and comparing it to what they are doing. I read things like the "Interview with a Cruiser Project", waste my time on the various forums, and just plain taking a guess based on what it costs me to live on land and maintain my boat now and have a budget in mind.
> 
> The budget I'm currently planning for is $3000/mo, which has to cover basically everything. Now this isn't a down and dirty budget, and it isn't a live high budget. But it is expected to be a comfortable budget that allows sightseeing and not eating out of a can budget. And as an average amount is one that I could cruise on till I no longer an able (that $3000/mo, $36,000/yr budget becomes $52,500 when I'm 75 at 2% inflation).
> 
> If you are in the cruise for $500/mo group this isn't a thread for you. But if you are in a similar position for cruising on $3000/mo I would love to see comments on what you expect this to mean far as your cruising plans.


I cant imagine how anyone could spend that much money cruising.
It is definitely a very high living budget. It will probably pile up while you are cruising


----------



## jonneely

In Mexico we have been able to cruise on a "Shoestring" budget as some would call it. Most months average $500, some under some over but our total average for last season was $550. We Anchor 99% of the time, make our own water, sail on and off the hook. We also Sail when most boats are motoring. Luckily we came to Mexico with an armada of light wind sails so we can move our 25,000 lb boat in the lightest of breezes, which saves on diesel. Since leaving SF we have used about 80 gallons of Diesel and 1 gallon of gas. We oar 99% of the time, but in San Diego A9 anchorage was a little far for us to ferry provisions so we mounted or 1.5hp Cruise and Carry. In Mexico we fished a lot with hard bait so we got to reuse lures over and over. Fish and rice is a normal dish for us. We make home made ginger beer out of ginger root, water, lime juice and yeast for our booze. Rum is surprisingly cheap in Mexico, our favorite is available in la paz for 26 pesos a liter ( less than $2 US) so we can make Dark and Stormys pretty much all we want. We enjoy this lifestyle, simple yes but we are making work!

Cheers,

Jon


----------



## MikeOReilly

jonneely said:


> In Mexico we have been able to cruise on a "Shoestring" budget as some would call it. Most months average $500, some under some over but our total average for last season was $550. We Anchor 99% of the time, make our own water, sail on and off the hook. We also Sail when most boats are motoring. Luckily we came to Mexico with an armada of light wind sails so we can move our 25,000 lb boat in the lightest of breezes, which saves on diesel. Since leaving SF we have used about 80 gallons of Diesel and 1 gallon of gas. We oar 99% of the time, but in San Diego A9 anchorage was a little far for us to ferry provisions so we mounted or 1.5hp Cruise and Carry. In Mexico we fished a lot with hard bait so we got to reuse lures over and over. Fish and rice is a normal dish for us. We make home made ginger beer out of ginger root, water, lime juice and yeast for our booze. Rum is surprisingly cheap in Mexico, our favorite is available in la paz for 26 pesos a liter ( less than $2 US) so we can make Dark and Stormys pretty much all we want. We enjoy this lifestyle, simple yes but we are making work!
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Jon


Hi Jon, I'd love to hear more about your experiences. But perhaps we should head over to the http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gener...5073-voyaging-$500-per-month.html#post3076706 thread. Leave the Lords & Ladies to their caviar and foie gras :wink.


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## Don L

MikeOReilly said:


> Leave the Lords & Ladies to their caviar and foie gras :wink.


such a cheap BS comment, but I figure these opportunities are the reason you read the thread


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## jonneely

- MikeOReilly- Sure! $3,000 a month is a staggering amount, but if you have a 40+foot boat, keep it in a marina every stop and have most of the work done to it but others, it makes sense. Nothing wrong with that by the way, we have friends that live to that code and love it! Our $500/mo does not include our original outfit, I dumped $20,000 in parts the first year and a half. $500/mo started October 1, 2014.


Cheers,

Jon


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## MikeOReilly

Don0190 said:


> such a cheap BS comment, but I figure these opportunities are the reason you read the thread


My friend, you have absolutely no sense of humour ... or did you forget to add the :laugh, in?


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## travlin-easy

Here's an extra that I had laying around!


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## MedSailor

Don0190 said:


> such a cheap BS comment, but I figure these opportunities are the reason you read the thread


I've done the sub $500/month budget and when I depart in a few years with family I'll be on the 2-3K/month budget.

Horses for courses and separate threads for discussion. In your intro post you referenced mike's thread and separated yourself from it.

I call fair play. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk


----------



## MikeOReilly

MedSailor said:


> I've done the sub $500/month budget and when I depart in a few years with family I'll be on the 2-3K/month budget.
> 
> Horses for courses and separate threads for discussion. In your intro post you referenced mike's thread and separated yourself from it.
> 
> I call fair play.


Thanks!

I was simply trying to direct Jon to the more appropriate thread. Since I've been admonished by Don in the past, I thought I'd do him and his precious thread a favour by suggesting Jon move over to the more obvious home. Silly me for thinking I could do it in a humorous and fun way.

BTW, I appreciate all these threads. To me, the dollar amount is simply a general guide. I don't get all anal about it (unlike some, so it seems). In the end, I think they're all discussing the same basic idea. I learn from all of them, and try and contribute positively as much as I can.


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## funcrew

From way early in the thread: "You will be amazed at how much money you save by dealing directly with your doctor instead of paying an insurance company to do it for you."

In my experience, just the opposite. The in-PPO-network doctor or lab bills for $1,000 list price. My insurance company applies a discount of $800, leaving $200 to be paid to the doctor. I pay $40 (20 percent) and the insurance pays $160. If I deal directly with the doctor, he gives me a 10% cash discount off list price, leaving my bill at $900. The main benefit of the insurance is not to pay their part, but to beat down the doctor on price.

In the USA, without insurance it's very easy to be bankrupted by hospital bills for a relatively modest ailment.

Anyway, I'm enjoying this thread and trying to sell my wife on the concept of floating retirement.


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## funcrew

After reading the rest of the thread, I apologize for my off-topic post above. Rookie mistake.


----------



## Brent Swain

A client, a retired Montreal fireman on a fireman's pension and all Canada pensions, far more than I have ever had to cruise on, was blown away by the fees for cruising boats in the West Indies. He couldn't believe there are no such fees in BC. So he came here, and lived happily ever after. Best simply stay away from areas with excessively high cruising fees. Easy to do.


----------



## hellosailor

Are there ever, anywhere, any such thing as "cruising fees" for a native in their own native country?

I don't think Bahamians have to pay a cruising fee in the Bahamas. Nor Fijians in Fiji. Nor Maldavians in the Maldives. Nor...anyone except "foreigners" in pretty much any place.

Or have I missed another memo?


----------



## Don L

hellosailor said:


> Are there ever, anywhere, any such thing as "cruising fees" for a native in their own native country?


In ones native country "cruising fees" are call something else like "property taxes" or "registration fee" or "excise tax".


----------



## jgragrg

I know I can survive barring anything drastic casesam happening but want to do more than survive and wifey is not interested in constant camping. So you see I've been reading a couple of the casesam active threads concerning cruising on a budget here and do believe $3K per month would be pretty good.


----------



## killarney_sailor

Brent Swain said:


> A client, a retired Montreal fireman on a fireman's pension and all Canada pensions, far more than I have ever had to cruise on, was blown away by the fees for cruising boats in the West Indies. He couldn't believe there are no such fees in BC. So he came here, and lived happily ever after. Best simply stay away from areas with excessively high cruising fees. Easy to do.


Fees in the West Indies are a lot less than those in places like Panama (even ignoring the Canal costs), Ecuador, the Galapagos and even Australia. I am of two minds about this. On one hand, it can be very expensive. On the other, these countries are selling a natural resource, just not something like oil or iron ore. In the case of Oz, most of the cost is a huge bio-security fee - was more than $300 when we were there.


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## mbianka

Don0190 said:


> In ones native country "cruising fees" are call something else like "property taxes" or "registration fee" or "excise tax".


In my town there is also a Mooring Fee which allows me the right to have a mooring dropped on the harbor bottom.


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## jgragrg

Yes..there is also in my town.


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## Minnewaska

You're not really free to roam, completely free as a US citizen in US waters. So I'm told, if you stay in a Massachusetts harbor or marine for more than two weeks, they are required to report you to the State, for determination on whether you should be paying to register and for their use tax. That's probably because Mass resident try to say their boat is in RI, where there is no sales/use tax on boats, and just bring it back to Mass. John Kerry did this several years back, but quickly paid the tax and presumably the penalties to avoid any more negative publicity.


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## chadc

If I had $3,000 a month for cruising I'd already be gone.


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## Don L

Even with all my research there's still a big monkey to deal with. Near as I can tell health insurance will run us $31 to $589 (on 2015 rates) a month. This $3000/mo thing is no where near as much as some who can not really do the math believe. For example that amount is less than my 2014 "Everything Else" spend which is everything other than savings, taxes, house costs and boats costs. So from the $3000/mo I need to spend less on "Everything Else" plus take out costs for boat maintenance, upkeep, and marina costs.


----------



## MedSailor

Don0190 said:


> Even with all my research there's still a big monkey to deal with. Near as I can tell health insurance will run us $31 to $589 (on 2015 rates) a month. This $3000/mo thing is no where near as much as some who can not really do the math believe. For example that amount is less than my 2014 "Everything Else" spend which is everything other than savings, taxes, house costs and boats costs. So from the $3000/mo I need to spend less on "Everything Else" plus take out costs for boat maintenance, upkeep, and marina costs.


This is an important issue and one I'm interesting in learning more about. Surely there must be exceptions for USA expats who live overseas where you won't get hit with the tax penalties.

As I recall, if you are a US resident but spend over 330 days outside the USA you are subject to no tax. I wonder if this applies to the tax penalties of not having US health insurance? If so, one could go without USA health insurance and pay out of pocket in each country one was in. Though, now that I research it further, it appears you must actually be working in another country for it to apply. See below.

See the IRS link below:
https://www.irs.gov/publications/p54/ch04.html

To claim the foreign earned income exclusion, the foreign housing exclusion, or the foreign housing deduction, you must meet all three of the following requirements.

1.Your tax home must be in a foreign country.

2.You must have foreign earned income.

3.You must be one of the following.

a.A U.S. citizen who is a bona fide resident of a foreign country or countries for an uninterrupted period that includes an entire tax year.

b.A U.S. resident alien who is a citizen or national of a country with which the United States has an income tax treaty in effect and who is a bona fide resident of a foreign country or countries for an uninterrupted period that includes an entire tax year.

c.A U.S. citizen or a U.S. resident alien who is physically present in a foreign country or countries for at least 330 full days during any period of 12 consecutive months.

See Publication 519 to find out if you are a U.S. resident alien for tax purposes and whether you keep that alien status when you temporarily work abroad.


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## Don L

Paying the tax penalty isn't an issue. Having health coverage is!


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## cthoops

Don0190 said:


> Paying the tax penalty isn't an issue. Having health coverage is!


We have no intention of paying for U.S. health insurance once we leave the U.S. We're either going to self-pay or get a global plan which is quite reasonable because it doesn't cover care in the U.S. As long as you're out of the country for 330 days out of each calendar year, you won't get hit with the ACA penalty.

If something major happens to one of us, we'll deal with it in the country we happen to be in at the time. Paying for U.S. health insurance when we aren't in the U.S. would take quite a bite out of our budget.


----------



## Don L

cthoops said:


> . We're either going to self-pay *or get a global plan* which is quite reasonable because it doesn't cover care in the U.S.


Do you have a budgeting number for that?


----------



## Ulladh

If you have medicare you are covered no ACA penalty, if you have tricare you are covered no ACA penalty, or get the cheapest bronze plan ($220/month with no subsidy in SE Pennsylvania) and add a Health Savings Account (HSA).

The HSA is from the GW Bush era and is tax free. Use the HSA debit card for medical expenses not covered by the bronze plan anywhere and keep all receipts.


----------



## aeventyr60

Don0190 said:


> Do you have a budgeting number for that?


$89 a month for full coverage in Thailand..Cigna

Last month a full men's physical $160. Stress test, MRI, Chest x-ray, full blood work up and Dr.Consult.

Skin cancer check up and spot removal $100.00

Minor surgery to remove a sebaceous cyst $225.00

No need to have US health coverage.


----------



## MedSailor

aeventyr60 said:


> $89 a month for full coverage in Thailand..Cigna
> 
> Last month a full men's physical $160. Stress test, MRI, Chest x-ray, full blood work up and Dr.Consult.
> 
> Skin cancer check up and spot removal $100.00
> 
> Minor surgery to remove a sebaceous cyst $225.00
> 
> No need to have US health coverage.


Awesome. Is this policy good in any country (besides the USA)? Is it global, as in useful in many countries under one policy or do you have to buy a policy for Thailand and then one for Indonesia etc?

MedSailor


----------



## Minnewaska

aeventyr60 said:


> ....Last month a full men's physical $160. Stress test, MRI, Chest x-ray, full blood work up and Dr.Consult......


A chest x-ray with a physical. Hope you don't have a specific need for it, that's a lot of radiation.


----------



## Minnewaska

cthoops said:


> We have no intention of paying for U.S. health insurance once we leave the U.S. We're either going to self-pay or get a global plan.......


Definite option and, if nothing super serious or unique occurs (and I hope it doesn't), that'll work. However, there are an awful lot of folks that come to the US for care, for some things that other countries treat archaically. Not say all do.

I don't plan to be away as long as you, so my thinking is to get a US plan with the largest deductible I can find. Then pay as I go abroad, when cruising, unless anything of significance occurs. If it does, I fly home and deal with it.


----------



## hpeer

Ulladh said:


> If you have medicare you are covered no ACA penalty, if you have tricare you are covered no ACA penalty, or get the cheapest bronze plan ($220/month with no subsidy in SE Pennsylvania) and add a Health Savings Account (HSA).
> 
> The HSA is from the GW Bush era and is tax free. Use the HSA debit card for medical expenses not covered by the bronze plan anywhere and keep all receipts.


Ulladh,

Just noticed you are in Philly, so am I.

I are retiring in January and moving aboard full time shortly thereafter. Have some cruising planned.

One thing I'm still trying to sus out, among many, is if there is any real advantage to changing residence to Florida. We will be using St Brendans Isle for mail forwarding in any case.

It's not a simple decision because we will retain a rental property I the city.


----------



## cthoops

Minnewaska said:


> Definite option and, if nothing super serious or unique occurs (and I hope it doesn't), that'll work. However, there are an awful lot of folks that come to the US for care, for some things that other countries treat archaically. Not say all do.
> 
> *I don't plan to be away as long as you, so my thinking is to get a US plan with the largest deductible I can find. Then pay as I go abroad, when cruising, unless anything of significance occurs. If it does, I fly home and deal with it.*


That makes a lot of sense, given your plans.

What to do about health insurance while cruising is something that deserves a lot of thought, with no two people likely to arrive at the same solution. Are we making the right decision for us? I hope so, but admittedly it's a roll of the dice.

When it comes to this particular topic, I occasionally find myself wishing I was still in my 20's and blissfully unaware of how things can change in an instant when it comes to one's health.


----------



## zboss

I don't usually comment very much on sailnet but from my experience cruising our big budget buster is due to our real desire to spend time with friends, and we have a lot of friends (as I am sure you all do) that always want to meet at some cruiser hang out drinking beer and enjoying the day or night. The preferred solution, of course, is to hang on each others boats but that is not always practical. We end up spending way more money in restaurants and bars than we should. 

We have developed three budgets:

1) A Non-Cruising Budget... where we are in a marina some where making money or doing boat improvements, or both. That comes to about $2850 a month.

2) A High Cost Cruising Budget... which comes to $3800 a month

3) A drop dead low cost budget...which comes to $2400 a month. 

So, the low cost budget per month includes:

Customs/Immigration Fees @ $80
Boat Insurance (liability only) @ $93
Taxes/Reg/Customs Decals/USCG Inspection @ $21
DAN Insurance (don't want stupid accident to kill our dreams) @ $11
Phone and Phone Data (have to stay in touch for family and get contract work back in USA) @ $20
Delorme InReach (safety and texting home) @ $25
DropBox (Data cloud backup) @ $9
St. Brendan's Isle (mail and legal address) @ $20
Grocery (Inc. Bottled Water) @ $250
Warehouse Grocery Stockup @ $150
Fishing Supplies @ $15
Water from Shore @ $105.00
Alcohol (rum and maybe 1 case of beer) @ $85
Cat Food @ $30
Cat Health @ $50
Marina/Mooring/Anchoring @ $100
Boat Maintenance Reserve @ $300
Restaurants @ $200
Boat Diesel @ $300
Gas for Dinghy/Genny @ $50
Propane @ $15
Credit Card Fees @ $7
Medical and Dental Insurance (Obamacare) @ $100
Clothing @ $30
Website @ $20
Misc @ $6
Entertainment and Tours (e.g. museum entrance fees, park fees, etc.) @ $70
Panama Canal Transit Reserve @ $100
Cash @ $65
Bottom Cleaning (scuba tank fill x 2) @ $24 

Things that you will see missing that are included on the High Budget are:

Bottom Cleaning (pro) @ $85
Higher Boat Insurance (full coverage) @ $270
Global Entry (I still work internationally) @ $17
Iridium GO (weather/getting work emails) @ $85
WiFi @ $100
Laundry @ $30
Pump Outs @ $24
Amazon Prime Membership (to help with shipping and TV viewing in USA) @ $8
SiriusXM @ $15
Chris Parker @ $16
Kindle Magazines @ $2
CBS All Access @ $9
Bigger Alcohol Budget @ $100
Bigger Cat Grocery @ $100
Bigger Cat Health Reserve @ $250
Bigger Marina/Mooring/Anchorage @ $525
Books/Movies @ $40
Gifts/Souvenirs @ $25
1 Day Car Rental @ $60 
Bigger Gas for Dinghy/Genny @ $100
Predictwind @ $42

These numbers come from our short time cruising (2 years now) in the USA and Bahamas.

I think in our low budget that:

* Food will be higher
* Restaurant will be higher
* Marinas/Moorings will be higher
* Cat food will be higher

So we need to watch these expenses very very carefully.

We included $100 a month for water but we are buying a watermaker before we leave, so for an on-going budget this item will instead be reduced and go into a watermaker repair reserve.

We increase our budget 2% per year.


----------



## cthoops

cthoops said:


> We have no intention of paying for U.S. health insurance once we leave the U.S. We're either going to self-pay or get a global plan which is quite reasonable because it doesn't cover care in the U.S. As long as you're out of the country for 330 days out of each calendar year, you won't get hit with the ACA penalty.
> 
> If something major happens to one of us, we'll deal with it in the country we happen to be in at the time. Paying for U.S. health insurance when we aren't in the U.S. would take quite a bite out of our budget.





Don0190 said:


> Do you have a budgeting number for that?


We're a few years away from heading out, so I haven't done any nitty-gritty research, but I've found quotes for global coverage excluding U.S. for $150/month for the two of us. The devil will be in the details, of course, but at least it gives us a rough idea for now.


----------



## Minnewaska

cthoops said:


> We're a few years away from heading out, so I haven't done any nitty-gritty research, but I've found quotes for global coverage excluding U.S. for $150/month for the two of us. The devil will be in the details, of course, but at least it gives us a rough idea for now.


As I think about it, does anyone have experience using global insurance in multiple countries? I've only had US insurance, but it can sometimes be a hassle to find the right covered doc/hospital in the same country. Secondly, how do you deal with a denied claim? I just pick up the phone, but I'm thinking you could have an international phone call on one's hands.


----------



## Don L

zboss said:


> I
> 
> We have developed three budgets:


Good detail and cost break down. This is what I find missing from most low budgets, details.


----------



## Ulladh

hpeer

I am in Philadelphia. I keep trying to retire but get sucked back in again.

If you have rental income in Philadelphia then I assume you will be filing a BPT/NPT tax form with the city each year and also PA tax, so it is not possible to completely escape.

My income producing assets are also in Philadelphia so I am all to familiar with the tax structure, including dividend and interest tax.

Home state for boat and taxes needs a tax professional to figure out.

My boat is so cheap it does not really matter if I keep it in PA or DE, but Delaware as a home state would be a huge advantage.

Leaving the US or Philadelphia permanently, is not something I am interested in. US citizens outside the US are still required to file taxes on both US and global income, and are not required to have a home state, but pay taxes to the state or states where the income producing asset is located.

So my budget for summer cruising includes cost of managing assets, healthcare, good wifi or 4G and return to Philadelphia when needed about $3,000 to $5,000 per month. I also teach design part time in the winter and that is just to much fun to give up.


----------



## Shockwave

We've been researching offshore health insurance and have found very good policies for around $400 per month for a couple. The only kicker is you cannot be in the USA for more then 35 days per year but you can be treated in the USA. Ideally we had planned on only buying catastrophic coverage and paying regular medical expenses out of pocket, Obamacare killed that. So, well spend less time in the USA, oh we'll.


----------



## MedSailor

Minnewaska said:


> A chest x-ray with a physical. Hope you don't have a specific need for it, that's a lot of radiation.


Don't you spend all day up in the air sucking up cosmic rays??  Chest x-rays these days are digitally sensed and processed and use much less radiation. Cat scans on the other hand.....

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk


----------



## Don L

Shockwave said:


> We've been researching offshore health insurance and have found very good policies for around $400 per month for a couple. The only kicker is you cannot be in the USA for more then 35 days per year but you can be treated in the USA. Ideally we had planned on only buying catastrophic coverage and paying regular medical expenses out of pocket, Obamacare killed that. So, well spend less time in the USA, oh we'll.


As long as you can come up with the minimum income in order to qualify for a subsidy (like withdrawing from a 401K) you can ACA Silver plan for $31/mo, or a Bronze plan (major medical with BIG deductibles and co-pays) for $0/mo.

I'm think it may be possible to have health insurance CHEAPER in the USA than not. This is 180 degree shift in my thinking from when I put myself on this cruising dream path.


----------



## killarney_sailor

Shockwave said:


> We've been researching offshore health insurance and have found very good policies for around $400 per month for a couple. The only kicker is you cannot be in the USA for more then 35 days per year but you can be treated in the USA. Ideally we had planned on only buying catastrophic coverage and paying regular medical expenses out of pocket, Obamacare killed that. So, well spend less time in the USA, oh we'll.


You can pay for an awful lot of healthcare for almost $5000 a year. In our travels we spent about $7000 for care after my major hand injury in South Africa. Dare in the public hospital would have been free but nearly as good. This included four nights in a very posh private hospital, surgery, daily therapy on the hand. Other than that, and it certainly might not have happened, we spent about $200 in total including a fair bit of care of an infected boil in French Polynesia and Fiji. A visit to the private hospital doctor in Fiji cost $6. Did not find out how much the public hospital was.

I think most Americans have gotten so used to how much things cost in the US that they don't realize how cheap it can be elsewhere. Remember that the company offering $400 a month coverage is making money. If someone is healthy, self insurance is the way to go - so long as you have money in an emergency kitty - the $400 could help build this up for any emergency (or semi-emergency) like a major repair to something.


----------



## MikeOReilly

killarney_sailor said:


> I think most Americans have gotten so used to how much things cost in the US that they don't realize how cheap it can be elsewhere. Remember that the company offering $400 a month coverage is making money. If someone is healthy, self insurance is the way to go - so long as you have money in an emergency kitty - the $400 could help build this up for any emergency (or semi-emergency) like a major repair to something.


This is our approach ... except when we're travelling in the USA. This is the only country where health costs scare me. I honestly don't know how my American friends manage it, even with Obama's apparent improvements.

KS's approach is one we take for most insurances. Take the money you were going to spend on insurance and tuck it away in the emergency kitty. Makes living, and cruising, to whatever budget you set a lot more achievable.


----------



## Don L

As someone who has already seen a $50k hospital bill; if you feel you can do without go ahead and do so. But it will be too late when (not if) that bill comes due.

BUT, the thread isn't about health care costs other than it being part of the cruising budget. It that it may be less expensive to stay in the USA with an ACA plan than go somewhere else. It would be helpful if some on the many many many USAers cruising would post their health insurance costs. But I've kind of given up on getting that info.


----------



## hpeer

Don,

My bservqtion is that a lot f folks ho talk about low ball cruising estimates simply ignore health care. They also seem to omit taxes from their budgets.

So to broaden your question a bit.....does $3,000/month include health care and is that $3,000 before or after taxes?

I've asked this before (here? Or elsewhere) and been pretty much ignored.


----------



## Shockwave

We are fortunate, our income level doesn't allow us to take advantage of subsidized Obamacare. We look at health insurance as protection of assets not protection of health. Health is what it is. 

So we want a policy that will protect our assets in the case of a major medical catastrophe. Some of the cruising policies look quite good but restrict us from spending time at home. I wish that weren't the case but it is what it is.


----------



## Minnewaska

MedSailor said:


> Don't you spend all day up in the air sucking up cosmic rays??


Not all day, everyday, but I'm clearly doomed. Save yourself. 



> Chest x-rays these days are digitally sensed and processed and use much less radiation. Cat scans on the other hand.....


I wonder if x-ray taken in Tailand is digitally sensed.

In addition to the cosmic rays, I've had two cat scans in my lifetime. Neither found what they were looking for, but the second found something else. Thankfully, benign.


----------



## Shockwave

We're budgeting $10,000/month. That includes health care, boat insurance, boat maintenance, food, clothing, entertainment, cruising fees and taxes. We don't think we will be traveling home very often or spending much time on marinas. The boat is paid off.


----------



## MikeOReilly

hpeer said:


> Don,
> 
> My bservqtion is that a lot f folks ho talk about low ball cruising estimates simply ignore health care. They also seem to omit taxes from their budgets.
> 
> So to broaden your question a bit.....does $3,000/month include health care and is that $3,000 before or after taxes?


I agree hpeer. As one of the low-ballers I've written many times that I won't be paying for healthcare insurance except when traveling through the USA. This may mean we will have to bypass, or severely limit, our cruising time in this wonderful country. This is just one of the many consequences of living within my means.

Taxes? Nope. Little income and no real estate, so no taxes.


----------



## Don L

hpeer said:


> Don,
> 
> My bservqtion is that a lot f folks ho talk about low ball cruising estimates simply ignore health care. They also seem to omit taxes from their budgets.
> 
> So to broaden your question a bit.....does $3,000/month include health care and is that $3,000 before or after taxes?
> 
> I've asked this before (here? Or elsewhere) and been pretty much ignored.


I'm said many times that the $3000/mo number includes EVERYTHING, its' a living budget.

It is after taxes in my case because it is all coming out of savings.


----------



## zboss

Don0190 said:


> Good detail and cost break down. This is what I find missing from most low budgets, details.


Thank you. We find that if you spend the time to break the costs down as fine as possible you find that there are a lot of ancillary costs that have not been accounted for. For example:

We accounted for $24 for scuba tank refills to scrub the bottom twice a month (We have a deep full keel and I don't have the stamina to hold my breath for as long and as often as required to complete the task without an air supply). However, what I discovered missing was costs to service the BCD and Regulator, account for loss/wear/tear on the equipment (set up an equipment reserve), and costs of losing or rusting out a scraper. That adds another $10 or so a month. These "petty" costs add up to substantial outlay every year.

As we break down each one of the categories it becomes increasingly obvious that I have NO IDEA how the "Cruising on $500" crowd could make it work. I mean... which 75% of the categories shown do you not spend money on?


----------



## hpeer

Don0190 said:


> I'm said many times that the $3000/mo number includes EVERYTHING, its' a living bidget.
> 
> It is after taxes in my case because it is all coming out of savings.


Don, I wasn't taking a stab at you. If you have clarified that, great. Many have not.


----------



## aeventyr60

"BUT, the thread isn't about health care costs other than it being part of the cruising budget. It that it may be less expensive to stay in the USA with an ACA plan than go somewhere else. It would be helpful if some on the many many many USAers cruising would post their health insurance costs. But I've kind of given up on getting that info."

No Don, you just ignore it, or just can't or won't believe the numbers. Several weeks ago I went to a Clinic in Langkawi, Malaysia to get some wounds looked after. The cost of the Clinic visit, wound cleaning, fresh bandages, antibiotics, and various ointments was 26 Malsysian Ringits or around $6, yes SIX US Dollars. This is about in line in what we found in NZ, OZ, French Polynesia. A bit more of an involved Doctor visit in Thailand, for my gals knee was a bit closer to $100.00 Including Xray, MRI, cortisone shot and follow up visits..

As some have pointed out, Americans have gotten too used to the high price of health care in the USA and can't believe when others share current, up to date pricing info.


----------



## aeventyr60

zboss said:


> Thank you. We find that if you spend the time to break the costs down as fine as possible you find that there are a lot of ancillary costs that have not been accounted for. For example:
> 
> We accounted for $24 for scuba tank refills to scrub the bottom twice a month (We have a deep full keel and I don't have the stamina to hold my breath for as long and as often as required to complete the task without an air supply). However, what I discovered missing was costs to service the BCD and Regulator, account for loss/wear/tear on the equipment (set up an equipment reserve), and costs of losing or rusting out a scraper. That adds another $10 or so a month. These "petty" costs add up to substantial outlay every year.
> 
> As we break down each one of the categories it becomes increasingly obvious that I have NO IDEA how the "Cruising on $500" crowd could make it work. I mean... which 75% of the categories shown do you not spend money on?


let's see:

You say:

$300 a month on Diesel? Are you a stink potter or a sailor?
$105 a month on water? Geez, are you really that dirty?
A ton of money on websites, Iridium, spot, delorne etc? No SSB, Ham, Sailmail or Winlink?
Cat food and and cat care?
Scrubbing your bottom every month? Maybe a new coat of anti fou is in order. Or is this the reason yur burning so much diesel?
Sounds like you are still working, maybe you should just go cruising...


----------



## goat

aeventyr60 said:


> let's see:
> 
> You say:
> 
> $300 a month on Diesel? Are you a stink potter or a sailor?
> $105 a month on water? Geez, are you really that dirty?
> A ton of money on websites, Iridium, spot, delorne etc? No SSB, Ham, Sailmail or Winlink?
> Cat food and and cat care?
> Scrubbing your bottom every month? Maybe a new coat of anti fou is in order. Or is this the reason yur burning so much diesel?
> Sounds like you are still working, maybe you should just go cruising...


Cat care for me would be a bag o' cucumbers.






goat


----------



## RobGallagher

Minnewaska said:


> MedSailor said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder if x-ray taken in Tailand is digitally sensed.
> 
> 
> 
> If you are in a hospital they are.
> 
> Perhaps some small town clinic they might not have digital.
> 
> The healthcare in Thailand is extraordinary.
> 
> I've had dental work done and once landed in the hospital under a neurologists care.
> 
> More like being in a high end spa that just happens to have first rate medical care.
> 
> No waiting and treated with respect and empathy.
Click to expand...


----------



## aeventyr60

RobGallagher said:


> Minnewaska said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you are in a hospital they are.
> 
> Perhaps some small town clinic they might not have digital.
> 
> The healthcare in Thailand is extraordinary.
> 
> I've had dental work done and once landed in the hospital under a neurologists care.
> 
> More like being in a high end spa that just happens to have first rate medical care.
> 
> No waiting and treated with respect and empathy.
> 
> 
> 
> ^+1
> 
> I actually had a wellness screening program done at the Adventist Hospital in Penang, Malaysia, just a short 185 NM sail from Phuket.
> 
> Here is a look at the program:
> 
> Penang Adventist Hospital
Click to expand...


----------



## newhaul

I would just like to bring to peoples attention there have been some changes to the VA- FMP recently so contact the vfw'service officer in your local chapter for more specific information. It seems 'we no longer have to pay for some services and wait for reimbursement from the us government.


----------



## zboss

aeventyr60 said:


> let's see:
> 
> You say:
> 
> $300 a month on Diesel? Are you a stink potter or a sailor?
> $105 a month on water? Geez, are you really that dirty?
> A ton of money on websites, Iridium, spot, delorne etc? No SSB, Ham, Sailmail or Winlink?
> Cat food and and cat care?
> Scrubbing your bottom every month? Maybe a new coat of anti fou is in order. Or is this the reason yur burning so much diesel?
> Sounds like you are still working, maybe you should just go cruising...


Not that I should have to defend myself here but since you asked so nicely.

I a sure you are not bashing me for coming to the table with a high and low budget that averaged out comes to about $3000 or am I just reading into your writing style? This IS the $3000 a month thread I am on right?

For the record we like to estimate high... its how we remain financially stable with no surprises - we prefer to be pessimistic when it warrants. I'm sure others have different techniques to achieve the same goals.

$300 a month on diesel is what we spent in the Bahamas for two months. Wish it was cheaper but wishing doesn't get you crap. We sailed every day but diesel is not cheap there. Actually, this got us from Marathon Florida, to the Berry Islands, up through the Abacos, and then all the way up the ICW to St. Augustine. With a torn sail and fouled injectors. When the wind is down is when its often best to make the passages in that area. Not sure of your cruising grounds but the gulf stream on the Atlantic Seaboard creates havoc and you need to go when the goings good. This often means motoring. Either that or eat your teeth just to save a few bucks.

$105 for water. I'm not sure how much water is where you are but in the Bahamas the water is very very expensive. And yes, if daily showers and clean underwear is what it takes to keep the wife happy and keep the deck clean we will spend it. The rule of thumb we subscribe to is 2 gallons of water per person per day. 2 people x 2 gallons x 30 days = 120 gallons. Then we splurge by washing our clothes and keep the salt off the boat so the salt doesn't destroy the boat we have put so much love into. So... we use close to 4 gallons a day per person I know - the horror.

Websites and such...Yes, we stay in touch. We like to read, stay informed, communicate, and have fun. Sometimes with people that are not cruisers. I have a full time job while cruising (I just turned 45 and have been cruising for 2 years - how old are you?). I intend to do it as long as possible - because I can. This requires me to stay in touch with the office. Also, my wife has elderly parents - They kinda like to know where their baby girl is and I am not going to say "Get an SSB!". My mother has breast and lung cancer...I kinda like to stay in touch.

Cat Care... would you have me throw the cats overboard or eat them? They are family.

Yes, we scrub the bottom at least every three weeks. We have pettit trindad sr and it works very well thank you. Regardless, in the Bahamas if you anchor near mangroves that are present nothing - nothing - kills the spores. Your bottom will quickly grow red fuzz if you do not stay on top. Good old bottom scraping is the key. We are not unusual, in fact we are the norm. In Florida, the water is so full of fertilizer runoff from the farming, big houses, and golf courses in two weeks you can have a prop inoperable due to barnacles.

I don't think I complained about our budget did I? Just stated what OUR budget was... I would not mind seeing how others have broken down theirs.


----------



## Minnewaska

RobGallagher said:


> Minnewaska said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you are in a hospital they are.
> 
> Perhaps some small town clinic they might not have digital.
> 
> The healthcare in Thailand is extraordinary.
> 
> I've had dental work done and once landed in the hospital under a neurologists care.
> 
> More like being in a high end spa that just happens to have first rate medical care.
> 
> No waiting and treated with respect and empathy.
> 
> 
> 
> Very cool. Did you happen to notice where the medical equipment came from?
> 
> Nothing I would like better than to see US healthcare cost decline. It's amazing that docs make less money, but healthcare costs more. On the other hand, it was only a generation or so ago that people just died when they were diagnosed with things like TB or contracting polio was just a bad luck of the draw. We now expect everything to be curable and it's amazing how much is. No one dies from AIDS anymore either, unless they don't have access to medical care or refuse to follow the protocols.
> 
> However, I'm convinced that if we reduce the cost of medical care here, it will rise in the rest of the world. Since the medical equip and pharma companies make so bloody much money here, if we take that profit margin away, others will have to make it up. I'm , at least, voting for reducing costs here.
Click to expand...


----------



## Minnewaska

aeventyr60 said:


> let's see:
> 
> You say:
> 
> $300 a month on Diesel? Are you a stink potter or a sailor?


I find many so-called cruisers, just sit on their boat for extended periods and don't actually go anywhere, at least not very far, very often. Others are trying to pack in as much as they possible can into the time they have available to cruise. I took a two week cruise up to Maine and back this summer and I'll bet I burned $200-$300 in fuel. We sailed a ton, but if there wasn't good wind, we had to or just wanted to keep moving. This same concept can be extended to months or years.

Many full time cruisers are better described as full time liveaboards and part time cruisers. Nothing wrong with that.


----------



## Don L

aeventyr60 said:


> No Don, you just ignore it, or just can't or won't believe the numbers. Several weeks ago I went to a Clinic in Langkawi, Malaysia to get some wounds looked after.


I don't know how I'm ignoring anything by discussing it. I would bet that by far most of us AREN"T IN Malaysia


----------



## Don L

zboss said:


> I a sure you are not bashing me for coming to the table with a high and low budget that averaged out comes to about $3000 or am I just reading into your writing style? This IS the $3000 a month thread I am on right?


No, you are right he was bashing you.


----------



## TakeFive

Don0190 said:


> No, you are right he was bashing you.


Yeah, and a real cheap shot. The guy spends the time to come up with the detailed list that people are asking for, and gets bashed for it. Good luck getting others to contribute.

Not good style, IMO.


----------



## aeventyr60

Don0190 said:


> I don't know how I'm ignoring anything by discussing it. I would bet that by far most of us AREN"T IN Malaysia


Yes, and we were discussing cruising budgets, which includes health care costs and includes people that are far, far away from the East Coast.


----------



## outbound

Was away for a year so far so still don't have good personal database but would note:
Hired crew on another boat broke his arm. Went to local hospital. Became septic. Dx. missed. 24 y. o. Healthy kid prior to accident. Tragic death.
Friend self treated pneumonia he developed while on passage. Like me another retired physician. Came home. Cultured. Placed on appropriate agent. Fine now and flying back to his boat.
Fellow cruiser has CML. Dx. after starting the life. Goes back to his home town on scheduled intervals. Doing fine.

As with many things you don't know who is good or bad at their profession or job until after you use them. When you travel the likihood or injury or illness may increase. These two things seem to be true in US as well as elsewhere. The glitz of pretty rooms and such is irreverent. However, for most it is easier to make an educated guess as regards competency in your home country. Having the social support system at your initial home also makes it easier to deal with injury or illness.

So for present have Medijet Assist. Will pay Cobra for wife when she fully retires late spring. Have used local services but have noted wide variance in knowledge base of providers.

Totally agree US health system broken with administrators getting seven figure salaries both at hospitals and in insurance companies. Having the US subsidize drug development for the world is ridiculous. Tort system also broken. Discrepancy between income of several specialities (derm,ortho, ophthalmology, path etc.) and the cognitive docs (peds, internal med, neuro) is not reasonably justified.


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## hpeer

Just priced ACA for my Wife. Luckily (?) she won't qualify for any assisstance. Looking like premiums will be around $600/month. She is 63 so this will go on for 2 years.

So that is $7,200/year, before tax or close to $10,000 total earnings.


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## hellosailor

hpeer-
Look out for some clever new cop-outs in the ACA plans. Often they are HMO/PPO only plans, and you will find that there may be no local ambulance service that is a plan member, and no local hospital that is a plan member. An ambulance run can cost $800 for 4 miles when you call 911. And they often are allowed to go only to certain receiving hospitals, which may be for-profit institutions these days that are strictly out-of-plan providers for many of the ACA plans.
A number of the ACA companies in recent weeks have said their plans will increase perhaps 30% for 2016, and at least one major player has said they will withdraw from offering ACA plans unless costs can be contained.

They are, after all, professionals at fine print.


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## hellsop

hpeer said:


> Just priced ACA for my Wife. Luckily (?) she won't qualify for any assisstance. Looking like premiums will be around $600/month. She is 63 so this will go on for 2 years.
> 
> So that is $7,200/year, before tax or close to $10,000 total earnings.


Don't forget to take the tax write off whatever portion of that is more than 10% of her income, if any. It may be well worth filing separately for those two years.


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## Shockwave

We're from the government, we're here to help. : )


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## hpeer

Yeah .... The whole health care situation here in the USA is just bizarre.


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## travlin-easy

In August, I had some health issues, one of which turned into a bizarre ordeal that was caused by physicians not communicating with each other, and not listening to the patient (me). I had to have a root canal, not the first one ever performed on me, and the dentist put me on Augmentin, just to be on the safe side. A day later, my GP put me on Doxicycline for a Lymne Disease flareup. The following week I had hemorrhoidal surgery, which is quite painful to say the least. Two days after the surgery, I developed Clostridium Difficile (better known as C.diff), which caused me to be hospitalized for 6 days. Believe me, no one can imagine what C.diff can do to you, but during those 6 days I lost 30 pounds and was unable to keep food in my digestive tract with eruptions from both ends during much of that time. While I was hospitalized, the attending physician decided that my blood pressure was too low, so he cut out most of my heart medications, which caused my blood pressure to sky rocket to 220/110 with a pulse rate of 110 to 115. With the C.diff on it's way toward resolution, I checked myself out of the hospital, resumed taking my heart medications at home, and after a couple weeks, things were looking better. I'm still not 100 percent over the effects of C.diff, and from what I've been told by others that have suffered from this disease, it could take as much as 6 months to feel normal again. 

Now, that 6 days in the hospital, even though covered by Medicare and a Blue Cross/Blue Shield Plan-F supplemental policy (High deductable) has cost me, out of pocket, $1,500, of which the hospital quickly grabbed $1,100. Now, that would take a big chunk out of my cruising kitty. And, I'm still getting bills from people that I've never heard of, folks who were called for consultations because the attending physician didn't have a clue what the Hell he was doing. 

Yes, the US health system is really screwed up, especially during the past four to six years, and it will take a lot of work to resurrect it. I spent 15 years working in Cardio-Pulmonary medicine at two of Baltimore's most prestigious hospitals, and worked with some of the top physicians in the field. Most have long since passed away, and I'm sure they would be rolling over in their graves if they were to see what has happened to the worlds greatest health care system.

Bottom line, a big chunk of your savings, especially later in life, will be going out for health care, therefore, best take that into consideration for your cruising budget.

All the best,

Gary


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## hellosailor

Not to go OT, Gary, but I've had family troubles with antibiotic resistant c.diff. The then-radical and approved fecal transplant proved to be the only solution after 18 months on every antibiotic proved useless. That was some five years ago, the latest thinking is that gut biomes are the real problem, and that balancing the biome with it's mystic brew of 40,000(?) life types may be the real problem that causes the c.diff. to go Godzilla on people, when some routine antibiotic or other change wakes it up.


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## Bleemus

Interesting. I have found my health care in the last 6-8 years to have improved and gotten cheaper. Sorry to hear your not seeing the same thing. Heal fast! 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## travlin-easy

Bleemus said:


> Interesting. I have found my health care in the last 6-8 years to have improved and gotten cheaper. Sorry to hear your not seeing the same thing. Heal fast!
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


That's interesting. My supplemental policy just rose in cost by 20 percent, I called the insurance company and asked why it increased and they said it was because of Obama Care guidelines for Plan-F. Just sayin'

Gary :cut_out_animated_em


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## Don L

I'm been doing more research and as part have been looking at marina costs. seems a big budget killer is "transient dockage". Of course everyone really knows that marinas, eating out, and health insurance are the biggest budget killers other than boat costs (that happen pretty regular really). But the marina costs for a monthly and longer term stays are so much less than for a few days or a week that I wonder if cruisers really stay in one location longer just because of this.

So cruisers the question is: do you regularly stay at a marina longer than you would like just to manage the associated dockage costs?

I got into boating to travel and I wonder how my sanity will hold if I sit around a place too long once I run out of cheap low cost things to see and do there.


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## travlin-easy

Don, when I was in Marathon, Florida, the City Marina pretty much owned Boot Key Harbor, mooring balls were $300 a month for my 33 footer, and tying up at the marina bulkhead, which provided me with water, electricity and internet connection cost me $758 per month. The only reason I opted for the marina bulkhead was the ease of loading and unloading my music gear, which is fairly extensive and does not tolerate getting wet or moist. In my case, the marina expense was quickly offset by my ability to play music at the local restaurants and tiki bars.

All the best,

Gary


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## Hannibal

This is a very interesting thread. Now I just need a day to read it all.


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## KCUSVI

In my opinion one could be living pretty darn well on 3K a month. The only variable would be slip cost. unless of course your on the hook then your living large. I pay roughly lets say right around $900/month for my slip, leaving me $2k, I think the average couple could live a pretty care free life financially with $2k. I suppose it depends on your life style. Im also assuming as in my case the boats payed for and and insurance is a one time payment yearly in full. Beyond that your just paying to eat and entertain yourself. I don't think you can figure in repairs etc, that should be a lump sum set aside each year to draw from in my opinion. And if you don't use it all then roll it over to the next year. Something expensive is bound to come along and you'll be glad you have the money set aside. Just my thoughts guys.


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## capta

Last week I had two teeth pulled (painlessly) in a state of the art dental clinic for us$62.00. That included the consultation and x-rays. 
When I had to renew my ticket, after battling the USCG over the mandatory use of US licensed doctors (and winning), I got all the necessary tests (including EKG & stress) and blood work in state of the art doctor's offices in Antigua for around us$150.00.
If you think you need to spend a fortune on medical insurance for US doctors and care, think again. Self insure and save yourself a bundle.


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## aeventyr60

*So cruisers the question is: do you regularly stay at a marina longer than you would like just to manage the associated dockage costs?
*

Yes, that is part of the strategy. We rarely pull into a marina for a few days. Marina time is usually associated with some major project, local inland travel or a longer trip to some place we can't get to by boat.


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## Don L

capta said:


> If you think you need to spend a fortune on medical insurance for US doctors and care, think again. Self insure and save yourself a bundle.


I don't have an issue with people doing the self health insure if living outside the States. In fact when I started down the path to cruising if as my assumption that it would only be possible if I got out of the USA. But I've yet to read a story of a cruiser doing the self insure and getting a major problem like a heart bypass etc.

Meanwhile there's still a new question for the thread:

So cruisers the question is: do you regularly stay at a marina longer than you would like just to manage the associated dockage costs?


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## travlin-easy

The only time I stayed at marinas was when weather conditions were too cold and I needed their electricity to run my heat pump, and in Marathon Key, Florida, when I docked at the City Marina bulkhead which was level with my deck and made it safer and easier to load and unload my music gear, which can be a bit cumbersome. The bulkhead was just a short distance from the marina driveway, where a friend picked me and my gear up and transported me to the venues where I performed. The money I made in tips alone more than offset the marina expense, and my food and booze costs. Had it not been for the music equipment, I would have lived on the hook, which would have saved me $758 a month in slip rent for residing in Paradise.

All the best,

Gary


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## outbound

Find a lot of that depends on lifestyle. If you need to go back and forth with any frequency it may be cheaper to have a yacht management company involved and have them deal with Marina.


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## outbound

should mention slip rate nearly half than if done as transient.


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## Victoria Demontelimar

We left with a €3,000 budget, 1000 for us 4 (mainly food), 1000 for the boat, 1000 for the rest (phone, internet, car rentals, marinas etc.). We actually were bellow over the past 3 years, more likely to be bellow 3000USD, probably around 2000-2500USD, without really counting. Now, we hate crowd, hence almost no marina, no car rental, no restaurant (only a few very good ones from time to time), only seclude anchorage where there is no daily fee (no internet, no restaurant, no shop, no spending). We fish and we drink water from the watermaker (no need to carry heavy packs) or rum, but with small kids, you tend to limit the consumption and this does not hit the budget. In remote areas, people give us fruits, fish (when we don't catch anything) and there is actually nothing to spend our money on. We trade books, eBook, films. In the Grenadines or the San Blas, lobsters are cheaper than tomatoes (if you find any), and shopping is limited to Amazon or eBay, when you have decent internet, but you still have nowhere to ship to and you actually need nothing. 
Then come the "unexpected", you need a new main, a new motor for the dinghy or something and the decision is always invest heavy or spend minimal to keep up and running, which could still remain in the original budget. And this is where it hurts, if you have reserves. If you don't have, then you don't spend. Simple.


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## jdThaw

to op, or anyone contemplating going...if you can't make do with 3 g's per month?...perhaps you should consider not going...my budget will 28% less on a good old 36'r


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## Don L

jdThaw said:


> to op, or anyone contemplating going...if you can't make do with 3 g's per month?...perhaps you should consider not going...my budget will 28% less on a good old 36'r


good for you, but so what!


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## goat

jdThaw said:


> to op, or anyone contemplating going...if you can't make do with 3 g's per month?...perhaps you should consider not going...my budget will 28% less on a good old 36'r


$2160 are you ****ting me? Nobody goes cruising on $2160! You'll need $2248 minimum or give up your dream. Now where's that sarcasm emoji....?

goat


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## MarkofSeaLife

jdThaw said:


> perhaps you should consider not going...my budget will 28% less on a good old 36'r


I spose you are being stupid ... but I will give u the benefit of the doubt.
The difference between $2k and $3k per month isn't much: air trio home one per year, rentacar once per month for a day, and a better dinner out once per week. that will chew it up.

mark


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## capta

jdThaw said:


> to op, or anyone contemplating going...if you can't make do with 3 g's per month?...perhaps you should consider not going...my budget will 28% less on a good old 36'r


Oh come on now. I see yachts every day that couldn't even operate a DAY on a pittance like 3 grand. Not EVERYONE'S dream is some tiny 50 foot blow boat without a crew of ten, all dressed in whites!


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## Don L

Dam, I thought I was going to get the pretty girl crew on my budget :crying


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## capta

Don0190 said:


> Dam, I thought I was going to get the pretty girl crew on my budget :crying


With your boat and budget, all you're gonna get are the gold diggers. I know, it sucks being one of the 1%, right?


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## Don L

capta said:


> all you're gonna get are the gold diggers. I know, it sucks


One can only hope :wink :devil


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## outbound

I'm a newbie at this and still figuring this out. But from my own experience and listening to others believe two things have not been discussed.
1. There is a learning curve. Many of your expenses decrease as you figure stuff out. This is especially true if you are in just a few cruising grounds repetitively.
2. Need to have an attitude like income averaging. Knock the hills into the valleys. To do this requires a pit fund and that calculus needs to be considered when thinking about how big the cruising kitty needs to be to not be overly stressed about dirty lucre. The older the boat and older the people the bigger the pit fund may need to be. Yes some years you will skate ( no new sails, nothing major breaks, not time to redo the rigging/chainplates, repower etc.). But some years you take a whack from something major breaking. 
Then think about something breaks that requires a haul. Then you have expense of haul, perhaps expense of hard storage until part appears, expense of land living until boat wet again. Friends went through this and given most people cruise in pretty vacation spots during high season expense of a room and eating out every meal ( no access to galley) as well as repairs when you have little choice for part supply or if needed skilled labor can be crushing. 
Or think about a medical event. Care in alot of places can be sketchy. You have no way to judge. Or you may need some thing not locally available ( lithotripsy, an MRI etc.). Now you have the medical expense but insurance may cover this. It won't cover yacht management or storage while you are gone. Nor thief in your absence. Nor transport.
So budgets are great and help you be realistic about what you can do but also need to think about the pit fund.


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## MarkofSeaLife

outbound said:


> 1. There is a learning curve. Many of your expenses decrease as you figure stuff out.
> 2. Knock the hills into the valleys.


Yes.

Most expensive is the year before one goes and the first year cruising. Because people WASTE money on what the are told, or think, are essentials.
My advice is to spend nothing on the boat. Buy one that works and spend nothing. Go cruising and at the end of 6 months write a list of what you need. It will be 10% of what you thought you need.

A fool and his money are soon parted and once its gone... And no, you can't sell the junk you mistakenly bought. You might get 10% value at a swap meet. Or you give it away, or it fills the cabin.

I am still shaking my head at that thread of the guy going for his first day sail and people telling him to buy a torch. FFS, you gotta stop the irrational expenditure of money before you start. Whatever it is you do not need it. Not even that! Nothing 

2) Knocking the hills down is tricky. It takes a longer term view that new cruisers can't understand because they are still throwing the money arround like confetti.
After the first year the calculations of what you've spent is such a shock that the 2nd year is often quite utterly frugal. The 3rd year you've learned I was right and you can begin to knock down hills.

Cruising is great after that. But that's 3 or 4 years down the track. All that enjoyment could have happened earlier if people just spend nothing in year -1 and year 1.

Mark


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## outbound

So Mark why didn't you tell me that two years ago.:laugh:grin


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## copacabana

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Yes.
> 
> Most expensive is the year before one goes and the first year cruising. Because people WASTE money on what the are told, or think, are essentials.
> My advice is to spend nothing on the boat. Buy one that works and spend nothing. Go cruising and at the end of 6 months write a list of what you need. It will be 10% of what you thought you need.
> 
> A fool and his money are soon parted and once its gone... And no, you can't sell the junk you mistakenly bought. You might get 10% value at a swap meet. Or you give it away, or it fills the cabin.
> 
> I am still shaking my head at that thread of the guy going for his first day sail and people telling him to buy a torch. FFS, you gotta stop the irrational expenditure of money before you start. Whatever it is you do not need it. Not even that! Nothing
> 
> 2) Knocking the hills down is tricky. It takes a longer term view that new cruisers can't understand because they are still throwing the money arround like confetti.
> After the first year the calculations of what you've spent is such a shock that the 2nd year is often quite utterly frugal. The 3rd year you've learned I was right and you can begin to knock down hills.
> 
> Cruising is great after that. But that's 3 or 4 years down the track. All that enjoyment could have happened earlier if people just spend nothing in year -1 and year 1.
> 
> Mark


Mark, once again, great advice! It's so easy to spend a fortune on things you "think" you'll need when cruising, but, in fact, you really don't need or use. People would be better advised to fix the essentials on their boat and head out and then see what upgrades really make sense. If I can find it, I'll post the link to a Don Casey article that really hits the nail on the head with respect to hanging on to your funds while preparing to cuise.

The only thing I don't agree with is the torch...  By all means, buy a good LED underwater torch to keep on the boat. Essential equipment!


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## MarkofSeaLife

copacabana said:


> The only thing I don't agree with is the torch...  By all means, buy a good LED underwater torch to keep on the boat. Essential equipment!


Those torches can be over $100!
I buy $6 torches at Cost-U-Less which incl the batteries. They are cheap crap but they work. I have plenty so I can always find them.
So I suggest in the first year buy the cheapy $6 torches.
If, after a year, you really, really wanna spring for a $100 torch you can.


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## copacabana

Mark, I'm a bit of a torch fanatic... The underwater torch is great for the unlikely event you have to go over the side at night to do something under the boat like free a line in your prop. And you can use them for snorkeling at night  I also have 2 very powerful narrow beam torches which I use as spot lights to check the boat position in relation to shore at night to see if I've moved. They can also be used to signal in an emergency (I used it once to signal a big stink pot that was lit up like an xmas tree and was backing up into me). These are also good to carry in the dink for safety if you go rowing at night. I've often used them to find my way back to the dink through the jungle after a hike that ended late. I have to say, I think having a few good quality torches should be high on the list of essential equipment. They are a one-time purchase if you buy a good one.


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## outbound

Did get a dive light which lives in the cockpit. Survives salt, spray and the occasional wave. Importantly beam width is tunable so can look at sails/rigging without losing night vision. Spreader lights do kill my night vision. Takes Li rechargeable batteries so never dead. Shopped it. Turns out batteries as much as torch but still <$100 for the whole thing. Seems indestructible so one and done purchase until it goes swimming.
Have to agree with C on this one. Sorry Mark.


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## RobGallagher

Mark's advice is good for ANY new boat owner, even those that will only day sail to start. When I think of the money I have wasted on crap I never really needed or used. I did the most in my first couple of years sailing, then it quickly slowed down to the bare essentials.


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## roverhi

We cruised for a year on just over $1,000 1976 dollars. That's not $1,000 a month but for the entire year. Does not include the supplies we left with which were fairly extensive. We never went into a marina, ate out seldom because there weren't any restaurants where we were and/or they weren't convenient. I got quite good at spearing our protein and fishing which helped defray costs. We'd built the boat, owned it free and clear, and it only had a couple years in the water before we left. Other than hauling the boat every 2-3 years, had virtually no maintenance costs for the 10 years we owned the boat and we didn't fly home or have any expenses to pay back home. We were young at the time and had no medical insurance. Boat insurance was dirt cheap which is probably why the company no longer insures boats.

So figuring the dollar is worth a 5th of what it was back then, we'd have lived like kings on $3,000 a month in todays money. We went to Islands that were off the beaten path at that time though probably no longer the case. Wasn't much we could spend money even if we wanted to. Not your marina on the left cruising hitting happy hour every afternoon and eating our regularly. You really have to look at the kind of life style you want to live while cruising. Doing it on $500 a month will mean staying away from civilization temptations. If you anticipate cruising like Don, $3,000 probably won't be enough.


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## Don L

roverhi said:


> If you anticipate cruising like Don, $3,000 probably won't be enough.


Just wanted to end your post on a high horse didn't you :|


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## Minnewaska

A school teacher retires on a pension of over $3k per month and wouldn't be criticized for spending all of it on their retirement lifestyle. Max social security retirement benefit is even close to that.

I'm impressed that many can get by on much less (although it's frequently without responsible savings or insurances), it's sort of comical that $36k per year is consider an opulent lifestyle.


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## caberg

Minnewaska said:


> it's sort of comical that $36k per year is consider an opulent lifestyle.


I pretty much agree with what you're saying, but let's not forget that this is $36k in expenditures after taxes, which is very different than someone living on a $36k gross annual income. I don't think you were confusing the two, but it's not real clear in the way you framed it.


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## Don L

caberg said:


> I pretty much agree with what you're saying, but let's not forget that this is $36k in expenditures after taxes, which is very different than someone living on a $36k gross annual income. I don't think you were confusing the two, but it's not real clear in the way you framed it.


Makes little difference for people retired. The thread is about spending not income.


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## MarcStAug

outbound said:


> Just re did a spreadsheet with the finance guy to figure if we should own the boat totally or leave part owned by the bank. .... . Do a spreadsheet with an outside partner. Makes it all very real. Also thought 3k/m was realistic. Still think quite do-able but want "play" money to sight see. Now as we edge into the life find may have underestimated expenses.


It would be VERY cool to see a spreadsheet like that with the different things you put in it. Anyone have one they might share with the masses?


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## outbound

Marc- thanks for the kind words but unfortunately financial adviser's software is proprietary. System is dynamic inputting what my holdings are doing, Yellin, inflation etc. I can access remotely but due to security issues even though encrypted do so only periodically for mutual review with adviser. The accountant does my bookkeeping and she inputs all expenses monthly into the advisors system. I'm given a fixed budget with a pit fund reserve for the boat and another for me and the bride. Thing looks at past expenses and my telling adviser of expected future expenses to modify itself. The thing is on autopilot so a once a month phone call to the advisor is all that's needed circumventing security issues. This decreases expenses as well as as it's difficult to conduct even simple business when not in the US. 
This requires at lot of trust in your advisor as although you can set up nearly everything on automatic payment some things you cannot. Also to a limited degree you are having the accountant watching the advisor and both watching for scams,hacks, or bookkeeping mistakes. 
Run multiple check books with active one for daily expenses kept at balance just adequate to cover day to day stuff. Same with credit cards. Kept at zero balance and only one has a high limit which is hidden on the boat. Less concerned about exposure that way. Advisor monitors and replenishs as needed.


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## Cande

This seems to be a timeless topic. We're one year from retirement and think we'll have met our goal of $100000 / annual post-retirement income. With that we plan to live "where life takes us." Maybe living on our boat, maybe daysailing, maybe visiting grandchildren. We'll always work at something, even just small jobs. There are some health issues we have to work through, but we'll do that, one day at a time.


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## Shockwave

caberg said:


> I pretty much agree with what you're saying, but let's not forget that this is $36k in expenditures after taxes, which is very different than someone living on a $36k gross annual income. I don't think you were confusing the two, but it's not real clear in the way you framed it.


If your net is $36k you're gross is basically the same, tax liabilities for those earning $36,000 are essentially zero. If you're earning substantially more but plan on spending $36k per year for cruising then that's a different question. And really, earnings of up to $100k annually are lightly taxed, ~10 to 13%.


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## guitarguy56

Cande said:


> This seems to be a timeless topic. We're one year from retirement and think we'll have met our goal of $100000 / annual post-retirement income. With that we plan to live "where life takes us." Maybe living on our boat, maybe daysailing, maybe visiting grandchildren. We'll always work at something, even just small jobs. There are some health issues we have to work through, but we'll do that, one day at a time.


Good plan Cande... We're in the same situation though not one year away from retirement (3-4 yrs left or maybe less). My main concern is hope that my wife's health condition allows us to cruise more than just the weekends. Wanted a new boat but can't see the need if we can't take it anywhere I wanted to cruise for a lengthier time.


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## guitarguy56

Shockwave said:


> If your net is $36k you're gross is basically the same, tax liabilities for those earning $36,000 are essentially zero. If you're earning substantially more but plan on spending $36k per year for cruising then that's a different question. And really, earnings of up to $100k annually are lightly taxed, ~10 to 13%.


Absolutely... I think anywhere from $40k-100K a year is about right for retirement... anything less than this is stretching your dollars to do much especially if you maintain a home while cruising... minimizing that 'land based' home could be less if you sell off the major real estate and move into a less expensive to maintain condo/townhome... something we plan to do.


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## Shockwave

Guitar, for those that have a couple bucks stashed away it is worth looking into qualified dividends, they pay well and are tax free for the first $100k or so. Granted not many people are fortunate enough to be in this position but if you have less and add that yield to your SS your tax burden can be substantially reduced. As an example, $500k in QD could yield $30k and a couples SS may be $3500 per month or $42000. Taxes on this combined total of $72000 is ~ $2,300.


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## outbound

QD are a good thing. Other good source for some is REITS. They fell on hard times so could be bought cheap. Allows more play against rental income from other sources with different aspect of tax codes (active/passive losses/gains). Requires no active involvement. Just get a check.
Finding going cruising for 1/2 the year very different than truly being gone. Being gone requires disinvestment from any holdings that requires active supervision. Being gone means supervision of rental properties, dirt dwellings, investments, fixed obligations and myriad other things (responsibilities to antecedents, descendants) in your absence. Difficult to transfer the supervision to another party. Usually involves expense or some loss of income ( same thing). Needs to be included in planning.
I thought Internet and phone would suffice. The past two years suggest this is not true even if just cruising the Carribean. Therefore believe it to not be true if going farther afield. Investments should be made or adjusted with this in mind.


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## guitarguy56

Shockwave said:


> Guitar, for those that have a couple bucks stashed away it is worth looking into qualified dividends, they pay well and are tax free for the first $100k or so. Granted not many people are fortunate enough to be in this position but if you have less and add that yield to your SS your tax burden can be substantially reduced. As an example, $500k in QD could yield $30k and a couples SS may be $3500 per month or $42000. Taxes on this combined total of $72000 is ~ $2,300.


Good points... We both have IRA's myself and my wife and we've been putting the max amount every year with 2016 being $13000 for married couples... but this isn't enough... we stash all my income into interest bearing accounts and rely on only my wife's salary to pay the everyday bills and living expenses... that is quite significant as my salary is 6 figures.

This along with substantial savings and trusts from both my parents (deceased) and my wife's grandmother's trust have accumulated a substantial amount we can take monthly over $2960 at a 5% withdrawal rate... This doesn't include any Social Security amounts for the both of us and my wife's teacher pension amounts she gets (even though she may lose some social security benefits)... We could take out anywhere from 6%-10% but why would we need to do this? I have our spreadsheet from Schawb open and can play with the numbers. Interesting how everything fits in with little on our part except insure the numbers are solid and not floating into others pockets.


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## Cande

It was getting the new boat that has prompted us to sail more, having searched for many years, and as we have been getting older, I was beginning to think our "dream" had become "the search" for the boat, not what finding the boat would allow us to do. That was getting old. It seemed it would never end. But then the boat magically appeared practically in our backyard, 12 hours after seeing it, it was ours, and the dream has become real. We're spending money left and right: A new cradle, winter storage, wrapping, some new equipment, a new mainsail, cleaning and repair of the existing ones... But, hard as it is to believe, I'm enjoying making these purchases and paying for these services. Maybe it will get old, but it's not yet!


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## Cande

These posts on this topic are very thoughtful! Thanks to all!


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## Shockwave

Out, you have to be careful with riet's, although they are preferred stocks they do not have qualified dividends so don't enjoy the tax benefits of other QD's. I also agree that unless you have a large real estate holding that can be professionally manged it may be better to sell off the property.

Another area for potential savings that some may be able to exploit is deferred salaries if you work for a company that offers such a program. My wife is able to defer a portion of her income, tax free and it earns 7 to 9%. She then takes the defered income at a later date when our incomes will be lower (ie lower tax rates) and spreads it out to minimize liabilities.

Figuring out what incomes to take and from where when when retired isn't easy. Tax rules are obtuse and timing "when to take it" is crazy. Do you wait and take SS at 66 or take it early, the same with pensions. Is it better to switch accounts to lower yielding QD's to minimize tax liabilities, do you carry a mortgage on the boat or pay it off, do you burn down some savings to postpone taking a pension early? It looks like every year you can postpone taking pensions or SS early it will increase by at least 6%/yr (ie SS; $22,000 @62 or $32,000 at 66).

Try to find a good retirement planer and think this through, at our age there is no "do over".


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## chuck5499

We just put 7 years of cost data out there -- it is what we spend and I mean every penny of what we spend - nothing is left out - hope it helps - search by my posting or 7 yrs of cost data


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## guitarguy56

Shock... most planners will tell you not to take early SS retirement if you have another means to support yourself for that very reason... maximize your earnings... I'm fully vested for SS at 66-3 months years of age... but I will file and suspend and wait till 70 to begin accepting SS payments. It is quite a difference in monthly gain by waiting those number of years of course the risk is dying before getting a penny from any of my lifetime of paying into the system. We have plenty saved to assure we can tap into our nest egg before SS ever hits our bank accounts monthly. By the way I'm 59 yrs. of age if this helps.

Good point on the REIT's... they're a good/bad investment depending on the real estate markets or investiture of those funds. We will continue to own our 2 homes for the sake of handing them over to our 2 children so this is something we cannot sell off. The biggest 'ifs' are what my wife will inherit in the next 2-5 years... that's the big elephant in the room as everything changes drastically in our financial portfolios.


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## Don L

guitarguy56 said:


> Shock... most planners will tell you not to take early SS retirement if you have another means to support yourself for that very reason... maximize your earnings...


I don't really accept this advise as a given and not all advisers say this anymore. It all depends on what you started out with etc.

I have 2 spreadsheets for cruising on my $3k/mo budget; one for SS at 62 and one for SS at 67. On those it is better for me to collect SS at 62 until I reach age 80, then it is better to have waited till 67 to have collected SS.

At age 70 I have $100k more in assets (cash) if I start collecting at 62 than if I wait till 67 to collect.

In fact I took the 2 SS amounts and used it for a math problem to find the age where I would have collected the same amount of money. That is the age that SS thinks you are going die. For me it was at age 78.3. So if I think I'm going to live a lot longer than that I should wait so I can drool longer as I wait to die.

The other thing to consider is that while I am waiting to collect SS I'm living off my assets and they are dropping. Since assets get carried over to my survivors and SS doesn't, it is better spend and live on the SS income than it it is to spend the assets.

BTW - I had a heart attack at 52 so I don't really have a lot of reasons to believe I'm going to be the long lived person. That is why I'm leaving this year at age 56 to go cruising and planning on collecting SS at SS. But when I get to 62 I will reevaluate the whole thing (but I've done the planning to know what I can about it currently).


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## Shockwave

We're 54 and 57 so close in age. Well be casting off the dock lines in 2018, keeping nothing but the boat, no land based assets. 

Our incomes streams are varied, defered compensation, savings, sale of the business, coupon clipping, SS, pension... we don't anticipate any inheritance to speak of. Early years will be defered compensation, coupon clipping and savings; mid years will be pension, sale of the business, defered compensation; late years will be pension, ss, coupon clipping, we think.... 

We hope to be aboard for ten years minimum then into a retirement community where you go from condo to assisted living to nursing home. We don't anticipate ever owning real estate again and will leave the kids cash unless we burn through it all. 

Staging how to "spend down" is a puzzle for sure. Good to hear ideas from others.


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## guitarguy56

Don good point... unfortunately I have to wait for my wife to retire on her teacher pension... she is 7 years younger than I so have the waiting game to play... I am referring to the fact I really don't need the Social Security to retire on and neither does my wife at the age we need to call it quits... for me it is 63-65 depending on how lucrative it is to continue working while I wait for my wife at 63 yrs of 'her' age to retire... I will be 70 yrs of age then and this will be my point of collecting the 'extra' funds of Social Security. 

I'm super healthy and don't even look my age... but my wife has much more complications with her health so retirement depends mostly on how she takes to continue working till 63... We have been stashing money left and right for our retirement as we don't want to change our lifestyles. Only big expense is purchasing a new boat should we both be in quality health to use it wisely. Otherwise we continue merrily with our Hunter... we have no slip fees for her as it's slipped on our home in Wilmington Island (2nd home).


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## outbound

The SS math is different depending on setting. One also deals with the uncertainty of how the gov't will restructure and tax. Think this may also be true for other entitlements ( don't get that word I paid both sides of mine for decades). Seriously doubt those already receiving benefits with ever see amount of benefit as a gross number decrease given it would be political suicide. See real possibility of Medicare benefits restructuring with the net result higher asset people pay more for medical care.
REITS like any speculative investment are not without risk but like alternative investments do aid in diversifying risk. Downside is absence of a liquid position. They are a very small perecentage of our holdings. 
Hardest issue is inability to plan with background of uncertainty concerning tax exposure. As net return after fees and taxes is only thing that matters. 
See people moving everything out of the states and buying citizenship elsewhere. Can't stomach that at all. Nor the Panama business. Even if legal just doesn't seem right. Finding out places like Wyoming run some of the biggest tax dodges was an eye opener for me.


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## colemj

I think the only calculation that should be done in determining SS benefits is that they might not be there at all when you think you will use them.

We used to make detailed spreadsheets exquisitely defining every conceivable parameter and contingency and pour over and adjust them constantly.

Then we just took off.

All that worrying and detail seems so quaint now...

Mark


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## guitarguy56

colemj said:


> I think the only calculation that should be done in determining SS benefits is that they might not be there at all when you think you will use them.
> 
> We used to make detailed spreadsheets exquisitely defining every conceivable parameter and contingency and pour over and adjust them constantly.
> 
> Then we just took off.
> 
> All that worrying and detail seems so quaint now...
> 
> Mark


This same talk about SS being insolvent made 30, 20, 10, 5 years ago and they're still debating it will not be there for 'us' when we retire and access those funds along with Medicare. Interesting that people retired today are using money I and others have been putting into the systems over 30+ years of working.... surely people today with higher incomes than the incomes of say 30, 20, 10 years ago workers were making are thus replenishing these SS funds today. This debate is not whether SS will be solvent as it will be... it is about planning for the eventual day we give up land based and move to the water based home... how to fund it with careful planning... some just take off and others need more security. I need to know I'll have a steady source of income regardless of SS/pensions, that's our 'plan'.

Glad it worked out for you and others... our day is just around the corner.


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## colemj

Another issue with SS besides solvency is the changing age eligibility. This has moved back 5 years since I started contributing, and another 3 look imminent.

My point was that if one is planning to take off in their 50's, SS is too distant to be meaningful in any financial calculation.

I didn't mean to imply that one shouldn't plan. I was just relaying our experience that in hind sight, all that detailed planning and worrying was a waste of time and energy. All that was really necessary (for us) was to simply know how much money we had, and a ballpark handle on how much we should spend at any given time/year. We certainly don't need very detailed spreadsheets or constant phone and internet access to brokers, accountants and financial advisers, etc.

Once out, you have much more control of spend than you did on land. For example, our first year out was the whole sub prime crash and we lost half of the value of our investments. So we hunkered down and cruised even harder, making sure we didn't take on any expensive boat additions or stay in or eat out in expensive marinas all the time. After a few years of very carefully enjoying ourselves, our investments recovered. 

So once one locks in a few fixed costs like boat and health insurance (about our largest yearly expense), then the rest of it is highly elastic and very controllable. 

If you don't rely on SS in your planning, then it just becomes a bonus at the end, or safety net should something go terribly wrong. If you absolutely need to rely on future SS income in 10-20 years to keep you solvent, then maybe the whole toss it all and take off thing should be rethought.

BTW, in real dollars, the people now contributing into the SS system are not making more than those in the past. And there are fewer of them.

We look forward to meeting you and everyone else out here.

Mark


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## Don L

colemj said:


> If you don't rely on SS in your planning, then it just becomes a bonus at the end, or safety net should something go terribly wrong. If you absolutely need to rely on future SS income in 10-20 years to keep you solvent, then maybe the whole toss it all and take off thing should be rethought.


So basically you have to be rich and not need SS before you can go cruising!

If I had to do this I would just get rid of my boat as a waste of money since I was going to have to work till I die.


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## Ulladh

A growing population and increased immigration adds more tax payers to support Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid. As long as people keep wanting to come to the US the social welfare system will remain solvent.

But to increase the value added by those new tax payers we need a more robust and better funded education system.


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## guitarguy56

colemj said:


> If you don't rely on SS in your planning, then it just becomes a bonus at the end, or safety net should something go terribly wrong. If you absolutely need to rely on future SS income in 10-20 years to keep you solvent, then maybe the whole toss it all and take off thing should be rethought.
> 
> BTW, in real dollars, the people now contributing into the SS system are not making more than those in the past. And there are fewer of them.
> 
> We look forward to meeting you and everyone else out here.
> 
> Mark


This is not what I would subscribe to and the reasons for careful planning, knowing where your funds are going, invested, returns on investment, interests now and in the future, inflation... all these need to be taken into account but relying only on SS is not the way to go. Pensions are also in that same category but at least they are managed (not most) and insures a check at the end of the month... My reasoning is that planning now (my entire salary minus taxes is saved) along with Roth IRA's and other instruments ensure we have a steady income regardless of what I get when I'm 70 yrs of age and what my wife at 63 yrs of age would then receive.

We hope to be at least $8-10k/mth (drawing ~10%) before any pensions or SS kick in (with SS/Pensions added we would be closer to $16-18K/mth then we would draw less on our investments down to 5-6%). This allows us to do much cruising, living our current lifestyle with no strain on any budget... no mortgage, no car payments, etc... only health insurance, home taxes, utilities, occasional travel abroad, and flights to see family/friends.

Would love to see everyone here sometime in the future on some Caribbean hideaway...


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## outbound

Mark appreciate your comments but as we are currently going through this transition find the real devils are in the details. Apologies for being self referenced but would note many of the expenses are in your response to others outside you and your bride.
When land based you could personally deal with the needs of your antecedents. Cost you nothing but your time. Now arranging assisted living, personally care attendants, transport and such. This is a big bite.
We've (and our antecedents) have accumulated various collections. Although for some the market is reasonable for others the market is down so secure climate controlled storage is in our future even after liquidation. We expect to return to land living in around a decade so some things (tools/furniture/artwork) is also being kept. Storage is a drip, drip, drip.
Some expenses disappear things like work suitable clothes, dry cleaning, car expenses. Some are transitional like getting rid of cotton and going to synthetics. Outfitting is a one and done or least rare replacement- watermaker, wind vane. Some savings are one and done as well like donating tons of "stuff" with resultant tax savings. 
Seems there are some who can cast off and have nothing which isn't on the boat. Some maintain attachments, obligations and a footprint on land for the transition back to land based living. It's a different calculus depending on that one thing. Can you truly leave with the only thing on land being your portfolio or do you still have land based assets and obligations needing planning and management?


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## colemj

Don0190 said:


> So basically you have to be rich and not need SS before you can go cruising!
> 
> If I had to do this I would just get rid of my boat as a waste of money since I was going to have to work till I die.


Aren't you 10 years out of eligibility still? The only way SS really works in planning is if you actually are receiving it pretty much from the start. Otherwise, if you are going to be destitute by the time you can get your hands on that relatively small SS payment, then you are cutting it too close.

30,000/yr is not rich for cruising. And a boat is always a waste of money, but you're too old for hookers and cocaine!

Mark


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## colemj

outbound said:


> Mark appreciate your comments but as we are currently going through this transition find the real devils are in the details. Apologies for being self referenced but would note many of the expenses are in your response to others outside you and your bride.
> When land based you could personally deal with the needs of your antecedents. Cost you nothing but your time. Now arranging assisted living, personally care attendants, transport and such. This is a big bite.
> We've (and our antecedents) have accumulated various collections. Although for some the market is reasonable for others the market is down so secure climate controlled storage is in our future even after liquidation. We expect to return to land living in around a decade so some things (tools/furniture/artwork) is also being kept. Storage is a drip, drip, drip.
> Some expenses disappear things like work suitable clothes, dry cleaning, car expenses. Some are transitional like getting rid of cotton and going to synthetics. Outfitting is a one and done or least rare replacement- watermaker, wind vane. Some savings are one and done as well like donating tons of "stuff" with resultant tax savings.
> Seems there are some who can cast off and have nothing which isn't on the boat. Some maintain attachments, obligations and a footprint on land for the transition back to land based living. It's a different calculus depending on that one thing. Can you truly leave with the only thing on land being your portfolio or do you still have land based assets and obligations needing planning and management?


No problem - I only meant to share my perspective and hind sight for our situation only. But I think one aspect is universal - once you are out there, you will do lots less detail planning, checking and following up, and probably find that a lot of your previous detailed stuff was overkill.

Instead, you will just transfer that obsessively detailed checking and planning onto the latest synoptic weather chart!

Yes, we truly left with every thing we own on the boat - then tossed a bunch of that after the first year. I'm pretty sure our portfolio exists only as a bunch of electronic bits distributed widely around a nebulous network. It seems like the closest we can ever come to physical contact with our assets is to electronically push a few of those bits from one lumpy area in the network sprawl to a less lumpy area.

The single most liberating thing we ever did was get rid of all the stuff we thought we needed to carry around with us the rest of our lives - antiques, heirlooms, emotionally attached stuff from our childhoods, etc. It was very hard to do that and made us feel bad until the very moment the last thing was gone. This moment was an intense regret followed quickly by waves and waves of pure freedom and joy. It felt like heavy weights being lifted of us and the future opening wide.

Everyone we have talked to who did similar describes the same feelings. Many we have talked to who kept a lot of their stuff with anticipation of returning later eventually got rid of it all anyway because they wanted different stuff when they returned.

But again, I'm only relaying our experiences for consideration and comparing. I'm not trying to tell universal truths, and things like supporting parents and investing in fine art or other physical tangibles are outside our experiences.

Mark


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## colemj

Watch out, retirement will kill you!

Retirement Will Kill You - Bloomberg View

Mark


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## Don L

colemj said:


> Aren't you 10 years out of eligibility still? The only way SS really works in planning is if you actually are receiving it pretty much from the start. Otherwise, if you are going to be destitute by the time you can get your hands on that relatively small SS payment, then you are cutting it too close.
> 
> 30,000/yr is not rich for cruising. And a boat is always a waste of money, but you're too old for hookers and cocaine!
> 
> Mark


I'm not planning on cruising only on SS. But between my wife and I SS is more than the $3/mo budget the thread is about. So SS defining goes into the planning budget for what I need to leave at 56.

I don't see planning for SS income as any different than planning for a pension income.

But I will keep the hookers and cocaine in mind if it comes down to me and I know my kick the bucket date. Sounds like a better plan than just letting the kids have it.


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## guitarguy56

colemj said:


> Watch out, retirement will kill you!
> 
> Retirement Will Kill You - Bloomberg View
> Mark


Thanks Mark... that was good for a laugh.

My parents (dad was a physician, mom a homemaker) he retired back in 1974 due to a minor stroke... he passed away at 93 yrs of age (chain smoker)... mom passed away 2 years ago at 89 yrs of age (non smoker)... My parent-in laws have been retired since they were 57/56 yrs of age (business owners) and he is 76, she is 75 today and they're still kicking around as we speak... they're both non smokers and lived a very glutinous unhealthy lifestyle but they had $$$ so everything was well off for them (silver spoon)... not sure they are going to be around in another 3-5 years based on what we're seeing in their health but that is long lifespan for seniors today that aren't of the centenarian group. Of course many will be today and into the future due to better health care, etc. 
I'm hoping to be of the centenarian group based on my extremely healthy regimes... wife is a whole different issue altogether. I believe genetics have more to do with it along with healthy living providing a much longer lifespan.


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## MikeOReilly

Great discussion. Seems to me the crux of it all is not really about money, social security, investments or pensions, but rather what each of us needs to feel safe and secure. Each of us is different, with different needs, different experiences, different skills, and different desires. This is why it's nearly impossible to answer the question: _How much does it cost to go cruising?_

Only one thing is for certain; none of us is getting out of here alive. My approach is to have fun, and try not to hurt too many people. The rest is just detail.


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## colemj

MikeOReilly said:


> Only one thing is for certain; none of us is getting out of here alive.


you just don't have enough money: Billionaires who want to live forever - Tech Insider

Mark


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## outbound

The anti aging stuff is interesting. Fundamental issue is at the ends of your dna is a string of repeating triplets. Ever time the cell divides one bit is lost. When all are gone the cell dies. So called programmed cell death.A variant of aptosis . One of main anti aging goals is to fool the enzyme system that does this. Another issue is cells make garbage. Many diseases result from not taking out all the garbage. The alpha synucleotidosies- Parkinson's etc. or the amyloid/tau protein diseases like A.D. So even if you solve the first issue the cells that don't divide (neurons) are all gummed up or die. So either make less garbage or be better at taking it out. Animals on bare subsistence diets live longer. This has been known for decades. After sex food is a primal drive. Don't know if I want to exist like that. 

Finally why would you want to live for ever. These folks didn't read their existentialists or didn't fully grasp or agree with the principles. Personally think there is too much people pollution now and life would be unbearable if a subset of rich didn't die. Social implications would be terrible. Reality even now is with genetic engineering you can breed with goals in mind and even manipulate the final product. Maybe there will be two species. Us free ranging mutts and ultra rich engineered "super" men. 

Returning to spitting up the anchor. I'm with you Mark. Just came back from renting a truck, filling it up with "stuff" and dropping it at the auction house. Already had three prior auctions. Damn business is specialized so different houses for different "stuff". Problem is the bride. Expect at some point will return to empty what we are now putting into storage but I love her and want to stay married.

Autocorrect is driving me nuts. Tired of retyping. Technical words close enough to google.


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## guitarguy56

I think it would be nice to have something to come back to after being out for some years... having a condo at the very least to keep the minimum stuff for living available would be at least something to come back for in case of emergency, or simply you're tired of cruising. This happens as can be seen by the number of 'dream' boats for sale in the Caribbean and elsewhere... not all dreams of cruising equate to reality.

I will keep at least one land based property since my cruising will not consist of crossing the Atlantic or Pacific and will strictly be doing the Caribbean loop.

That's us and it's how I perceive we will cruise since we have no desire to sail the Med, or South Pacific.


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## MikeOReilly

guitarguy56 said:


> I think it would be nice to have something to come back to after being out for some years... having a condo at the very least to keep the minimum stuff for living available would be at least something to come back for in case of emergency, or simply you're tired of cruising.


This is our approach to the security question as well. In our case it is a 14' storage trailer sitting (for free) on a friend's farm. We kept enough stuff to set up a basic household if/when the time arrives to head back to shore. It also contains a few items that we just couldn't get rid of (family treasures, photos, etc).

In reality, I've already forgotten what's in the trailer, but there is some comfort in knowing that if we sink we have enough stuff to cook an omelet.


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## guitarguy56

MikeOReilly said:


> This is our approach to the security question as well. In our case it is a 14' storage trailer sitting (for free) on a friend's farm. We kept enough stuff to set up a basic household if/when the time arrives to head back to shore. It also contains a few items that we just couldn't get rid of (family treasures, photos, etc).
> 
> In reality, I've already forgotten what's in the trailer, but there is some comfort in knowing that if we sink we have enough stuff to cook an omelet.


Mike... I'd seen you've been travelling the U.S. with the motorbike... are you back home or on the boat cruising? How long have you been out and has it been over a month yet? What are your expenses for the month so far... in the $500 or slightly over into the $1000 range?

Curious...


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## MikeOReilly

guitarguy56 said:


> Mike... I'd seen you've been travelling the U.S. with the motorbike... are you back home or on the boat cruising? How long have you been out and has it been over a month yet? What are your expenses for the month so far... in the $500 or slightly over into the $1000 range?
> 
> Curious...


Yes, our sailing got derailed due to life issues last summer (mom-in-law died), so we began our full-time cruising life with a motorcycle trip across Canada, down the west coast to mid-California, then meandering through the various deserts, over to the Gulf, and finally back up to Ontario via Mississippi, Tennessee Kentucky and Michigan.

We certainly blew the $500/month budget, especially early on when we were forced into motels too many nights (west coast storms). The second half was good though as we camped most of the time through the deserts. Overall we came in around $1500/month.

NOTE: I should add this is in CND $$$. Our $ took a real beating this past winter thanks to the oil crash. If I translate it to USD it's around $1000.

Our biggest controllable expense, outside of booze (which is pretty damn cheap in the USA), was camping costs. I equate this to marina costs. The truth on the bikes, and on the boat, is to stay away from organized parks and marinas.


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## outbound

Wow sounds like a great trip. Good on you Mike. 
Wonder if there is a migration north for refits, boat building and the like or has your tax structure made it unreasonably?


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## guitarguy56

MikeOReilly said:


> Yes, our sailing got derailed due to life issues last summer (mom-in-law died), so we began our full-time cruising life with a motorcycle trip across Canada, down the west coast to mid-California, then meandering through the various deserts, over to the Gulf, and finally back up to Ontario via Mississippi, Tennessee Kentucky and Michigan.
> 
> We certainly blew the $500/month budget, especially early on when we were forced into motels too many nights (west coast storms). The second half was good though as we camped most of the time through the deserts. Overall we came in around $1500/month.
> 
> NOTE: I should add this is in CND $$$. Our $ took a real beating this past winter thanks to the oil crash. If I translate it to USD it's around $1000.
> 
> Our biggest controllable expense, outside of booze (which is pretty damn cheap in the USA), was camping costs. I equate this to marina costs. The truth on the bikes, and on the boat, is to stay away from organized parks and marinas.


Mike... That's great you hit many roads traveling I'm sure... some great scenery in the SouthWest. I see you didn't make it my way to Savannah... get a glimpse of our little town.

I'm sure that's a decent budget and could probably be less once on the boat, reality is anything where you have to pay moorage or transient slip fees will strip that budget... One reason we are making sure to have ample funds for staying in slips and not anchoring much.

The idea of having plenty of booze is controllable and good thing it's not a requirement for me (the occasional beer/liquor) but good wine... that's another story... like Robert Plant's song 'where did the money go?'

Good to hear your back on the boat... :2 boat:


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## MikeOReilly

guitarguy56 said:


> Mike... That's great you hit many roads traveling I'm sure... some great scenery in the SouthWest. I see you didn't make it my way to Savannah... get a glimpse of our little town.


Unfortunately we didn't quite make it very far east. Had hoped to travel to Florida and then turn north, but the NE was still getting hammered with crap weather, so we decided to run up mid-continent. As it was, we barely made it back into Canada before our travel health insurance ran out due to lingering winter.



guitarguy56 said:


> I'm sure that's a decent budget and could probably be less once on the boat, reality is anything where you have to pay moorage or transient slip fees will strip that budget... One reason we are making sure to have ample funds for staying in slips and not anchoring much.


Our cheapest times were when we could get free or near-free camping. If our bikes were more off-roady we could have camped for free more often. So too with anchoring vs marinas. My plan has always been to avoid marinas like the plague, which fits well with the way my partner and I like to travel anyway. I really don't like urban areas. Give me a remote anchorage in a small cove any day over a busy downtown marina.

The cost of living out of our motorcycles was also higher due to not being able to carry much food. Our space was quite limited, which meant it was hard to buy cheaply. Added to that the fact that we were living out of a smallish hiking tent, which meant we retreated to motels during extended bad weather.

All in all, I expect boat life to be cheaper than truly camping , but I am still quite pleased to learn that even with all the eating out, all the motels and general costs of motorcycle life, that we still didn't spend anywhere near $3k/month.



outbound said:


> Wow sounds like a great trip. Good on you Mike.
> Wonder if there is a migration north for refits, boat building and the like or has your tax structure made it unreasonably?


Good question OB. I can't really tell you, although your $$ sure goes far up here right now. Actually, it's getting better (worse for you). As is typical for my financial acumen, I managed to hit the actual valley of the exchange rate. The CND$ is now at least 10 cents higher, and seems to be slowly creeping back up. But the US$ is still 20% higher these days, which means you get ~ $1.2 Loonies for every $1 Greenback.


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## guitarguy56

Good deal Mike... Seems like you both had a blast travelling... We did that same travelling when my wife and I got married but we trailered horses all along the East Coast from West Palm Beach up through Harrisburg, PA and then through Maine taking them to horse shows (wife was a Hunter Jumper)... a lot of fun but a lot of work. 

Now that you're on the boat you can gauge the true costs of what was discussed in the $500/mth thread although it was just a starting point... in actuality things will be much different once you're out there. I think you've gotten the idea of what to avoid and cruising will be similar... avoid the expensive locales and marinas.

See you out there one day!


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## MikeOReilly

guitarguy56 said:


> Good deal Mike... Seems like you both had a blast travelling... We did that same travelling when my wife and I got married but we trailered horses all along the East Coast from West Palm Beach up through Harrisburg, PA and then through Maine taking them to horse shows (wife was a Hunter Jumper)... a lot of fun but a lot of work.


Amazing trip GG. Sure sounds like fun.

It's a cliche, but travelling slowly through the USA gave me an appreciation for how vast, how diverse, and how wonderful, your country really is.



guitarguy56 said:


> Now that you're on the boat you can gauge the true costs of what was discussed in the $500/mth thread although it was just a starting point... in actuality things will be much different once you're out there. I think you've gotten the idea of what to avoid and cruising will be similar... avoid the expensive locales and marinas.
> 
> See you out there one day!


You bet!

Like all things, my spouse and I have been making this transition to full-timers rather slowly. We've seasonal cruised for up to four months at a time over the past decade as we build our boat, and our skills. On the financial side, I've learned we can cruise very inexpensively by staying out of urban areas and by DIYing most things. But what I've also learned is that it's the less predictable sudden costs that are the real killers to the bank account.

I think it's possible to operate at $500/month, or $3k/month or anything in-between, depending on needs and wants (and local economic realities). But whatever the operating budget, be sure to have a decent sized reserve fund to cover those big surprises.


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## outbound

Mike
What big surprises have you had? Can you give any guidelines on what's a reasonable pit fund? This uncertainty prays on the mind.


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## MikeOReilly

outbound said:


> Mike
> What big surprises have you had? Can you give any guidelines on what's a reasonable pit fund? This uncertainty prays on the mind.


So far my costly surprises have mostly centred around the engine, and associated marina costs. This is the one major area of the boat that remains elusive to my limited DIY skills, so we've had to use professionals way too often.

Far be it for me to give a specific number for an emergency fund. I think this would depend on boat size and type, and also where you are travelling. We currently have a comfortable five-figure amount we can draw on if need be, although we're also living on this money, so it will dwindle over time. At this point I wouldn't let our true emergency fund go below $10k.


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## outbound

Thanks Mike.
Wife gave me a diesel course as a delayed Xmas present. Was concerned she spent too much. Maybe as usually she is smarter than me.


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## MikeOReilly

outbound said:


> Thanks Mike.
> Wife gave me a diesel course as a delayed Xmas present. Was concerned she spent too much. Maybe as usually she is smarter than me.


My wife and I gave ourselves the same gift a few years ago. It was a good three-day course. Now at least I know what I don't know, which is much better than my previous state of not knowing what I didn't know :eek


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## outbound

Did the Mack boring many, many moons ago but unfortunately they no longer offer their course and refer to Annapolis School. Fortunately she was able to find a course locally. Psyched to learn new stuff.


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## MikeOReilly

outbound said:


> Did the Mack boring many, many moons ago but unfortunately they no longer offer their course and refer to Annapolis School. Fortunately she was able to find a course locally. Psyched to learn new stuff.


Yes, that was it. My spouse and I both took their three-day course. Was great for someone like me who had never even held a torque wrench in my life. By the end of it I was bleeding, changing filters and even setting the timing like a champ. The only negative (for me) was it was taught solely on Yanmars, whereas I have a Perkins. But the principles are the same.

Sadly I've forgotten too much, but it was a great course. A great investment in how to keep the boating budget under control. Too bad they stopped offering it.


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## outbound

It's a shame we forget so fast if we don't use skills like this on a regular basis so probably is a good present. When I did the course my boat had a Leman diesel. Parts where hard to find, imported and expensive. It was a converted race boat so engine access wasn't high on the list. I did my own routine maintenance but never really used the skills they taught me so now not secure I have even the basic skill set beyond fluid changes. Been asking others too many questions. Hope course will prevent me from wearing out my welcome..


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## Minnewaska

I force myself to do maintenance items on all boat systems, so that I am familiar with them. 

This year, for example, I removed the turbo charger to do a thorough cleaning over the winter. I could seriously take my time, understand what I was doing, try different things, etc. Since I was going to reinstall it myself, I also made it my "diesel" year. Just to get operational sooner, I often pay the yard to do the filters, impellers, etc. I did them all this year, just so I would be in practice. 

It's not really enough just to know what to do, it's being practiced on how to do it on your own boat. For example, accessing the secondary fuel filter on my Volvo requires some serious boat yoga positions. By practicing, I've realized that fully removing the companionway steps helps tremendously. Then I've fashioned a special drip container to fit the small space (ie cut off the bottom two inches of a plastic gallon water jug that will contort to get back there). Then, since only one arm fits back there, fashioning something to hold the filter against the threads, while the one arm turns it back on, took a few minutes of imagination. Just knowing how to get it off/on and bleed the system after install, is bluntly the easy part.

For every job I do, I think to myself what it would be like to do offshore, with high winds and heavy seas. That fuel filter would be near impossible.


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## mbianka

MikeOReilly said:


> Yes, that was it. My spouse and I both took their three-day course. Was great for someone like me who had never even held a torque wrench in my life. By the end of it I was bleeding, changing filters and even setting the timing like a champ. The only negative (for me) was it was taught solely on Yanmars, whereas I have a Perkins. But the principles are the same.
> 
> Sadly I've forgotten too much, but it was a great course. A great investment in how to keep the boating budget under control. Too bad they stopped offering it.


Took a three day course taught by the late Chuck Husick at Hanson Marine. Luckily they are a Westerbeke dealer/distributor so that is what we worked on and what I had on my boat. But, they gave us Yanmar manuals for study. Even got a discount on Westerbeke parts. I bought a lot of parts.  But, the thing I remember is the last day they bought in a new type of generator for a demo. A Honda 1000 amazingly quiet and powerful. Little did I know that I would eventually scrap my diesel and use it's big brother the Honda 2000 for my poor man's hybrid electric propulsion system.


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## travlin-easy

Don't worry guys and gals, all those mechanical skills you learned and quickly forgot will come roaring back into your minds when you get old. Things like this happen to old people, and we never know why.

For me, it's music and songs that filter in from the cobwebs of my mind. A few nights ago, I was sitting in front of my arranger keyboard, and like a bolt of lightning a sing slammed into my frontal lobes - the James Bond Movie theme You Only Live Twice. It wouldn't go away, and after two days of it swimming around in my brain, unmolested, I kicked it out and recorded it on the keyboard. Here it is:

https://app.box.com/s/d7hr2sk6xhsrlu28e4755z1p0nhw6al9

Now you know what you have to look forward to - gettin old ain't fer wimps and sissies. 

Gary


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## outbound

Can you move the filter? Have done that in the past on cars/boats to make servicing easier


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## Minnewaska

outbound said:


> Can you move the filter? Have done that in the past on cars/boats to make servicing easier


I've thought about it. The hard fuel lines from the filter mount to the fuel pump would need to be redesigned, or there would need to be a remote mount system available. I'm not sure there is a great place to relocate it to, that wouldn't end up in the way of something else. Pretty tight down there.

When I was done this year, I said to my wife, "I need an engine room". She likes the Passport 61, which has one, and said "okay". I just need to work long enough to afford one, which sort of defeats the purpose.


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## colemj

outbound said:


> Can you move the filter? Have done that in the past on cars/boats to make servicing easier


I can't tell whether this question was addressed to Gary's or Minnewaska's problem...

Mark


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