# Current State of Sailboat Racing is Pretty Bad



## dougc

I''m prepared to be tied to a stake and burned for stiring up a little controversy...

"The general state of club level racing is pathetic. Sure there are some good, tight fleets, but I''ve seen too many skippers starting at the wrong end of a starting line on the unfavored tack. I port tack start these cream puffs all the time. If most skippers are having trouble with this Racing 101 problem, how can they be expected to know the more technical aspects of the sport. Why are most racers so bad?"

Okay. I''m ready. Take your best shot!

Douglas Chew - s/v Challenger - Berkeley, CA


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## Sailormon6

Douglas,

Yacht racing is one of the most complex of all sports. Newbies want to learn to race, but they are awed by all that you need to know. The start of a sailboat race is tremendously intimidating when you first see all those boats bearing down on each other, all trying to occupy the same space at the same time, and all yelling right-of-way rules at each other. When newbies start at the wrong end of the line, they are just trying to survive, and stay out of everyone else’s way while they learn. And what do they get for their efforts? Guys like you go down to the wrong end of the line and harass them. You said you could take some heat.  

If we experienced racers discourage newbies from participating, we can end up racing against each other, with no “fresh meat” to keep the game interesting. Experienced racers should understand that newbies are not likely to win, and that it is unnecessary to use aggressive tactics against them. Until they develop enough skill to become a threat on the race course, we should leave the newbies alone. We should save our more aggressive tactics for the race-toughened skippers who are capable of beating us. When newbies ask questions and seek advice after the race, we shouldn’t be stingy with our knowledge. We should share it generously with them. If a newbie is liable to beat us just because we shared a little information with him, maybe we aren''t as good as we think we are. 

Don’t wait for newbies to ask for help. Invite them to crew for you, and when they do, explain everything you do and why you are doing it. I once suggested that a newbie crew for an experienced racer as a learning experience, and he said that he didn’t learn anything, because the racer was so intent on racing that he didn’t take the time to explain anything. When I have a newbie crewing for me, teaching the newbie is the most important concern. Winning the race is secondary. If I win the race, I might collect another, frankly, cheesy trophy at the end of the season. If the newbie learns to enjoy racing, I will have another opponent to share the excitement and camaraderie of racing for years to come. 

In short, the size and skill of the local racing fleet depends primarily on the attitudes and generosity of the experienced racers.


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## tsenator

Jeez Douglas,

Maybe they are just beginners and trying to learn the sport before they get in the more "serious" racers way. 

If you really see these green sailors doing tactical errors on the race course why don''t you be a better person and pull them aside after the race and give them a few pointers. I''m sure they would be very thankful.

It seems that the state of todays sail boat racing is intimidation and constantly *trying* to feel superior....and THAT is what is wrong with sailboat racing today. Most people ask "Why don''t more people get into sailing?", "Why does it seem all the sailors are just getting older and older, why aren''t all the younger folks joing the sport?". Sounds like its because people like you.


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## TSOJOURNER

Doug,
It''s because of people like you that I don''t race.
The sport is to have fun and enjoy. To be intimidated and harrassed when you are trying to learn is not fun. Winning is great, but these "beginners" aren''t going to win anyway, why shadow and taunt them. If you truly want a good race you should encourage and teach. "Why are most racers so bad?" Because people like yourself discourage them.
Larry


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## Jeff_H

Er Doug....Two of the races that we won last year we purposely chose to start down near the wrong end of a starting line on the unfavored tack but in clear air and able to cross on starboard the log jamb that started on the so-called favored end of the line. Sometimes you have to study the fleet and do something different. 

The fact that there are a lot of poor racers in club racing can actually add to the fun. One of the things that I enjoy doing is going out with these poorer racers and coaching them around a race or two (as experienced sailors did for me when I was trying to learn). By improving the skills of these poorer racers, it becomes more fun to race against them, and also, it really helps the comradery of racing when you can help many of these sailors with thier racing skills. 

To be frank, at least in the areas where I sail, club racing is really pretty healthy, with good close racing across a spectrum of skills levels, but with all due respect, I don''t think that the attitude reflected in your original post is especially helpful in altering the general state of club level racing, if you believe that the quality of club level racing is so poor.

Respectfully,
Jeff


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## Bart Toby

This year I got back into club racing on a J-24 that I picked up. So that my better half could have fun racing as she has litterly no experiance in sailing. 

First several races we went to the unfavored side to get away from the pack and not to place any undue stress on my crew or me. 

Also to see how agressive the fleet sailed.

For many people boats cost a lot of money and should be treated with care at the dock and on the course. So when someone comes barging at me on a port tack, being bigger or smaller, experianced or not, right or wrong, I''m getting the H*** out of the way. to much damage can be done (crew & boat). 

Fastest way to kill a good racing fleet is to let people knock boat around like a bunch of cowboys. 

If this guy was good at sailing than we should be no concern of his! 

However if he is just going out there to make an ass of himself than a the rules should be changed so that people like this are not allowed to race. 

by the way I''ve sailed all of my life and done my fair share of racing. but I would not race with you in the fleet.

Bart


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## dougc

Okay. I thought I''d give everyone a week or so to take a swing at me. Some of you should be classified in the heavyweight division. Ouch!

Thanks for the responses, guys. You’re all right, based on the limited information I gave you to work with.

I remember my early years of dinghy racing asking and getting friendly advice from the better racers. I know all too well about helping others so they''ll give me a better fight and so I''ll have to sail better, too. Experience racers know the best part of the sailing game is NOT winning, but the drama of closely spaced boats.

Actually, I''ve been VERY good about offering to share advice. Have offered to hold a tuneup clinic for others in our one-design fleet and not one person responded. Before you imagine anything different, let me say that I''m a well liked, friendly guy in the fleet.

Offering unsolicited advice is not my style. So I try to offer advice indirectly. For example, I''ll ask some of the slower drivers if they''ve read any good sailing books. They''ll reply, "No." But they won’t ask if I can recommend any good books.

That''s what I mean about the "poor state of sailboat racing". Nobody jumps on the "tuneup clinic" offer. Nobody asks for advice. Nobody does any reading. Yet they consistently finish at the back of the fleet. How can you help others that won’t do a thing to improve? Would you think that racing is in good shape?

I will say I think dinghy racing has far more better drivers than found in keelboat fleets. Do you think so, too?

Thanks.

Douglas Chew
s/v Challenger
Berkeley, CA


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## Jeff_H

I am not sure that you can make that broad generalization about drivers in dighies vs keel boats. I would say that some of the worst sailors that I have ever encountered have raced keelboats. If they had been racing dinghies they would not have made it to the course without a visit or two from the chase boat. 

On the other hand, most of the best helmsmen that I have ever encountered were racing keel boats. Then again I never competed above a college level in dinghies and may unfairly base my opinion on that. 

Jeff


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## paulk

Our club has had great results at clinics and "how-to" sessions. Lots of people go to them and have many questions. They''re not all run by National class champions (though some are) so that neophytes aren''t embarassed about asking basic questions. Each club is different, however, and pre-conceptions can be difficult to overcome. Maybe people in your group feel that free seminar advice is worth what they pay for it--- nothing. Charge admission (just so you can get refreshments, even) and bring in someone from a fleet up the coast a way so that he''s not a known quantity, and see what happens. Getting one person to commit, and then have them bring a friend, and then talk up the first session can lead to a great second session, and third, etc. Good Luck!


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## nelly

Well done Doug. I''m with you. You can''t help people improve who don''t want to learn. I think you Americans don''t do enough dinghy sailing, and that is the root of your problem. Dinghy sailors are better than yacht sailors, period.


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## capnjim02

I agree with Jeff 100% Many times a savy race commitee will purposely set up the line to have the pin end favored to keep the pack away from their stern. I have done the "port tack start at the pin end" with great results. Why start in a pack with very few options of where you can go and when. I always felt that starting on time with full speed and clean air was always better than on the favored tack ,in a pack,slow and pinned. this is especially true if your like me with the highest handicaped boat in your class. A Winabago on water "O''Day 30 centerboard" By using these tactics, sail smart and always keep clean air we"ve collected more than our share of the tin over the years.
Capn Jim of Que Pasa?


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## graham1

Good job in opening up an interesting topic, Doug.

At a recent regatta I chaired, I actually had two sailors come up to me and complain because the race committee waited for the last place boat to finish before starting the next race! (We got both races in in about 3 hours). Both these guys win all the time. Imagine what that says to the new sailor: your effort isn''t worth our time - get out of the way. 

Inviting a new sailor aboard your boat is a great idea. But, how ''bout offering to go aboard his boat? Not only can you give him specific advice, but maybe you''ll remember what it''s like to come in DFL or to never have won a (even cheesy) trophy!

Fair winds,
Graham


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## RobGallagher

Gee Doug, I think you must be the poster boy for the "Why I Don''t Bother To Race Club". Just kidding  BUT, there is a lot of attitude out there and it keeps many of us away from racing. Some of us don''t really need to sail for a plastic trophy and a bunch of screaming, even if we do have competative boats. I know some people who race with the intent of finishing at the back of the pack because they just want to have a little fun without the hastle.

Definition of "CREW" : Rude, noisy, beer can/fast food bag littering, non boat owning people, who take up every available parking spot (usually 1.5 spots per car) on race day, can''t clean up after themselves in a public rest room, carry little 6 pack coolers and huge $250.00 duffle bags with trendy sailing related logo''s on them.

Good luck this season. I hope none of us get the way of your next engraved pickle dish.


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## yesterdayswine

I''ve never raced in my life, but have been asked to crew many times. I will tell you that I am the guy your talking about. I have 1 year experience and plan to enter a few races this year. I don''t care if I make you mad...unless I hit your boat. I have never raised a spinnaker yet, but plan to learn during my first race. When it''s all over, you''ll have something to [email protected]%ch about, & I''ll have something to laugh about. See you on the water! lol


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## gungho24

What a bunch of mess. How in the world will we ever get crew with these attitudes??? Someone has to grind the winches. I know lets invite people we dont like without talent insult them yell at them give them lots of beer and hope they return to do it again next Sunday. Oh yeah when they actually learn something and contribute to the art of sailing lets kick them off the boat because one day they may actually figure out a way to buy a boat and beat us at our own game. (Man that felt good!)


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## TSOJOURNER

*A different take........*

Racing for me is not for competition but rather just an excuse, and a good one at that, to get out on the water a few nights a week. With grandkids and dogs aboard, we don't place very well and don't feel very competitive but our racing group is fun and carefree. As the kids get older, I think the competition side will kick in and we'll get more serious. Until then, fun is the name of our game despite participating in racing.


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## toastchee

>>Good luck this season. I hope none of us get the way of your next engraved pickle dish.

That's awesome. Good one.

This season we finished last except for one race but I claimed we were '#1 in fun'!!!

Good luck with that next coronary infarction!


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## AndrewMac

Interesting thread. I frankly avoided racing for years partially because I was intimidated by the whole thing. Bad reason, I know, but true nonetheless. While I respect the fact that Doug was trying to be provocative to get the discussion going, I have always had the distinct impression that many out there do indeed possess something similar to the attitude he expressed in the initial post. I just recently signed up at a sailing club here in NYC and, while I was researching where to join, looked hard for a place that went out of its way to communicate a willingness to accept and mentor newbie racers. I'm hoping they practice what they preach. I've always thought that racing must really help sharpen one's overall sailing skills and, if pursued in a collegially competitive attitude, is probably hugely enjoyable in its own right. Looking forward to finding out....and wishing winter wasn't so long in the northeast!


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## paulk

We just heard at our annual meeting that our club had a record number of races and boats starting this year -- several thousands of "boat-starts" including the one-design and handicap fleets. Not bad for a club with less than 300 members.


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## fendertweed

I agree with those who observe that the sort of attitude in the original post (intolerance for less skilled) is exactly why many (including me) decide that we have better things to do with our boat time than to race (I have raced in the past).

I have no interest in spending my precious boat time being yelled at or derided by those with a superior attitude, even if they may be superior racers.


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## Melbournian

Our club has a wednesday Twilight race which is suppose to be a fun race and to introduce more people to racing. The first few races were really fun and everyone enjoyed it. But just 4 races into it, I find that its getting competitive and people are getting nasty esp. the more experienced sailors. Now I know why I was so reluctant to join the race and we belong to the club! I so totally agree with fendertweed.


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## St Anna

Couldnt agree more than with melbournian.
BUT, club racing is a fast track method of learning your boat.

We sometimes used to follow a club race, clean up the stragglers but keep out of the way. We were asked to stop or join! 

DOnt need the ansgt. Also very often, the crew off a racer have egos and mouths beyond abilities.


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## Stillraining

St Anna said:


> DOnt need the ansgt. Also very often, the crew off a racer have egos and mouths beyond abilities.


Yep ..2 minutes over as SA will tell you it hasn't gotten any better...drives me bananas.

I would like to race a little bit some day...but I'm not going to put up with that junk.

This is an old thread and a good one...doesn't seem to be a large racing crowed here anymore...SA started around 02/03 so maybe they all were lured away...


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## St Anna

Still,
If you get a good crowd, you learn to push your yacht under different wind conditions. Remember 2 boats = a race [ guy speak!] Also you learn to 'thread the eye of the needle' - closer than comfort when cruising.

But, It can bring out a different side to people


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## fendertweed

absolutely (2 boats = race) for me, too, LOL ... I just don't need/want the crowding, the crowing, &c.


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## zz4gta

I find it interesting that some people who have replied to this thread have never raced and don't want to race. They're the ones who base their opinions on racers from hear say and drive away new blood. Along with the ego crazed skippers. 

If you're on a yelling boat, find another boat, they aren't that good if they're yelling. Yelling means they don't practice, don't have their timing down, and their tactician may be an idiot. Racing (and sailing in general) isn't a sport of instant gratification. You don't jump in a formula one racer and expect to do well just b/c you've been driving for years. Same goes with sailing, and racing sailboats. 

I find that most cruising skippers fall into 2 groups. The first one is the guy who wants to learn more about sail trim, tactics, and hydrodynamics, but is scared to screw something up on a boat with sails that cost more than a car. 

The second is the skipper who likes to sail in his or her own little world and can't handle being critiqued or questioned. His ego is fragile, his boat is grand, and he is the best sailor he knows, just ask him. It's this one that deep down inside doesn't want to race b/c of fear they'll end up at the back of the pack. 

There's nothing scarey about racing. Things need to be done quickly, boats get close to one another. But good crews don't yell. Good skippers know how to shut up and drive and leave the trimming to the trimmers. Leave the take downs to the foredeck gods, and leave the tactics to the snactitian.


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## Melbournian

St Anna, you are right. We are definitely learning to sail better and in different conditions. We have a catalina, and we know her strengths and weakness. So far we have done pretty good..coming in the top end of the pack of 28 boats in our division. For a cruiser , she's doing good. I am just going to enjoy a great competition and have fun and learn...and also learn to ignore the asses out there . The last one is easier said then done


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## bloodhunter

Melbournian
Looks like you've got the right idea. Your club also seesm to be doing something right -- 28 boats in your division, that's a really good sized fleet.
I raced in the Annapolis Wednesday night series for 20 years and while there were lots of boats, I don't thing there ever was a class that big. 
As everyone has pointed out, racing really makes you learn about your boat. I know it took as about three years of racing and practice before we could consistently place up at the top and we all had a lot of years of sailing experience but very little big boat (I had a C&C 40) racing. From what you've written it sounds like you're ahead of the curve. In any case, we raced against a lot of really good sailors and most of them were more than happy to discuss tactics after the races -- that and practioce was how we learned. After a while we were on the other side trying to help out newbies. 
There will always be loudmouths no matter where you go or what you do but with that many boats in your group they should be easy to avoid. We found that mostly they talked a better game than they sailed .
I gave up the Wednesday night series mainly because I couldn't get there in time for the first race. (Work is a *****) 
Anyway good luck and good sailing.


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## paulk

We found that a good way to keep people happy is to have a white sail (main & jib) division and a separate spinnaker division. The slower boats don't get as frustrated trying to keep up with the "hot shots", and the race committee can provide different courses and starts. If the RC does it right, everyone finishes at about the same time so they can share stories on the club porch afterwards. Another trick is to manipulate the ratings. We had about 60" added to our rating for Wednesday night club races after we won the club championship a few times. Others had theirs adjusted too, so that the race results became much more equitable. We had to sail our best every time if we wanted to keep first place. Others had a better chance to beat us if they came out. Participation increased to the point that we needed to create two divisions, and the story goes on with new tweaks each season, based on what we think will work.


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## Melbournian

Morning All,

Bloodhunter, our Twilight starts at 6pm, so there's plenty of time for us to get there. Its so popular becos its alot more relaxed then the usual Sat race and alot of friends come along who are not members of the club. Also we don't have to sail throughout the season. Anyone can just let the race committee know if they want to join the race the day before. We have 2 divisions. We usually get about over 40 boats as the weather is getting better. For wed nights, there's no spinnaker. Less stressful and more fun.
Yes our race committee has done a great job to encourage sailing. We had over 250 people coming into the club on our open day a couple of weeks ago.
Paulk, we use Topyacht program to do the handicap and everything else ..except to sail  . I help out on Sat to keep time. Its a pretty good program. All the other sail clubs in the bay is using it so we have a uniform handicap system. 
Happy Sailing everyone


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## puddinlegs

dchew said:


> I''m prepared to be tied to a stake and burned for stiring up a little controversy...
> 
> "The general state of club level racing is pathetic. Sure there are some good, tight fleets, but I''ve seen too many skippers starting at the wrong end of a starting line on the unfavored tack. I port tack start these cream puffs all the time. If most skippers are having trouble with this Racing 101 problem, how can they be expected to know the more technical aspects of the sport. Why are most racers so bad?"
> 
> Okay. I''m ready. Take your best shot!
> 
> Douglas Chew - s/v Challenger - Berkeley, CA


Just curious, but what local SF Bay series or races are you schooling everyone there champ? There are such a number of ridiculously good sailors on the Bay in so many classes that your post just sounds silly. When you're winning the ocean series, on a winning ride during big Big Boats, crushing the Etchells fleet, or doing the 505 worlds, get back to us. It seems you're not at all familiar with where to find the appropriate venue for your talents, and believe me, if you are talented on the Bay, folks will know. Trolls like yours do very very little to encourage participation and not at all indicative of how most really great sailors on the Bay look at newer racers at all.


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## smackdaddy

Hey Puddin - welcome to SN dude.

DChew's is a lament that I've seen a lot of on SA and elsewhere. What is the answer to ramping up participation?


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## zz4gta

Puddin, read the whole thread.


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## smackdaddy

Yeah, he has had 7 years to improve. Maybe he IS crushing the Etchells by now.


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## nhsail

Berkeley? 

No wonder dude, its not about racing out there on the circle, its more about survival or boredom, depending on the wind. The marina is so nasty with moss and dirt you can't tell what color your lines are. (We just bought a Merit 25 that's been there for years, moss on dock lines, and all the running rigging is grey/black, not to mention the home port of our lady of perpetual mildew) 


Figure out why some of the best BYC sailors bring their boats to the Estuary to race at OYC, Island, Encinal beer cans.


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## MSN2Travelers

*Club Racing*

Interesting thread. Four years ago, I was a novice cruising sailors that signed on as crew on a Pearson Flyer. The skipper had one and a half seasons under his belt. We would have been one of those boats that *dchew* loves to hate. 

There are two brick `n mortar yacht clubs in the greater Milwaukee area, Milwaukee (MYC) and South Shore (SSYC). Both run a Wednesday evening social racing series and the two combine to sponsor a Saturday PHRF regatta series. MYC has about 24 boats on the water for Wednesday racing; SSYC has about 70.

I'm with SSYC. We have two divisions with roughly 45 boats flying spinnakers and 25 in JAM. Spins are split in 3 sections and JAM in two. We manage to get in 15 Wednesday races in our short Lake Michigan season. The two race committees share ownership of the weekend PHRF series. The wide variety of conditions on Wednesday's helps us to grow individually and gel as a crew. The skipper has gained confidence handling his boat and the crew has become a team. We have become pretty successful.

I dug into the archives and found the social series has had about the same level of participation over the last decade. The Saturday regattas have suffered a significant decline, a decline that is starting to alarm our race committee and prompted a questionnaire being sent out to past racers asking why they don't participate on Saturdays any more. The two clubs routinely put 90-100 boats on the water every Wednesday evening yet they have trouble getting 20-24 boats to race one or two Saturdays a month.

What sort of trends, if any, do you guys see out in your area?


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## COOL

smackdaddy said:


> Yeah, he has had 7 years to improve. Maybe he IS crushing the Etchells by now.


I realize the original post has aged out,
but just to echo Pudding's comments,
I have to add that if you can not find 
good competition somewhere on S.F. Bay
you are either the worlds best sailor in every
conceivable discipline and class or you have not yet
ventured far enough from your duck pond.
I often envy the 'bay' sailors when I see the level
of participation they have for many of their events.


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## smackdaddy

+1 on that Cool. The bay area has some of the best racers around. I don't think anyone would dispute that.


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## nhsail

Bay sailors are good in wind and small waves. 

Some of the Ocean racing division do well offshore, but the central bay is its own little world of strong afternoon winds across the tides. 

Buzzard's bay can match it, with fresh SW stacking up a chop. Lake sailors 
and LI Sound/Chesapeake bay have better light air skills.


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## puddinlegs

nhsail said:


> Bay sailors are good in wind and small waves.
> 
> Some of the Ocean racing division do well offshore, but the central bay is its own little world of strong afternoon winds across the tides.
> 
> Buzzard's bay can match it, with fresh SW stacking up a chop. Lake sailors
> and LI Sound/Chesapeake bay have better light air skills.


Shouldn't comment, but...

nh, this thread isn't about who's is bigger, or about Buzzard's Bay or anywhere else east of Stockton. It's about someone who couldn't seem to find 'good' competition on SF Bay. Sailing year round does help develop pretty good skill sets.


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## tommays

*Were spending money already

Thursday, February 25th at 7:00Pm
Strategy and Tactics Around the Racecourse

Presented by: Paul-Jon Patin

followed up by

For a full day on Sunday Feb 28 OF NORTH U

And we will meet at least 6 more times before the boat even goes back in the water*

On this coast we gotta go against the best even on Wednesday night which would be the current top J80 and J44s owners just for starters and the classes will be filled with people looking to get and edge

We went to a presentation at Stevens Institute on there Current model 
http://hudson.dl.stevens-tech.edu/maritimeforecast/maincontrol.shtml
and had to fight old ladies for a seat


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