# Staying Warm and Dry at Sea



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

In my first extended offshore experience, delivering a J-120 from Charleston to Key West with Captain Dan, we hit cold and windy conditions and the forecast indicated it wouldn't get any better. This was the first true test of my foul weather gear. I was wearing coastal jacket and trousers with layers beneath, and I can tell you that I didn't stay dry or warm for long, even with the help of the dodger.

I'd like to hear your suggestions, experiences and tips on managing the elements.


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

I have worn an old fashioned yellow rain suit over everything else I had on. It kept me dry. Think Gloucester fisherman......


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

First, layering is important, but you have to have the right layers.

The base layer should be synthetic, and something designed to wick perspiration and water away from your body. Most of the synthetic sports underwear out now will do this.

The next layer depends on how cold it is. On a nice day it might be pants and a shirt. On a colder day, it might be long underwear with pants and shirt over them. I'll often be wearing an REI t-shirt and set of Mountain Hardwear pants for my second layer, since they're synthetic, dry really quickly, and are tough as nails. BTW, the MH pants are fairly light, and can be converted into shorts... but, they're relatively warm compared to a lot of other pants I've seen.

The third layer is the real place you get the insulation. Polarfleece and related materials are excellent for this layer. Fleece provides a fair amount of warmth, even when wet, but is relatively light weight and doesn't restrict your movement much. When it is really cold, a set of heavy polarfleece sweats work wonders.

The outer layer should be either a good bib with a foul weather jacket or a drysuit, depending on how cold it is. A dry suit is better in colder, wetter conditions IMHO, but it is harder to regulate your temperature in a dry suit.

*Special considerations:*

*Head and neck:* Wear a fleece hat... 60% of your body heat is lost through your head. In really wet conditions, wearing a microfiber towel around your neck will help prevent water from going down the back of you foulies and soaking your clothes. Remember to wring the towel dry once in a while.  The high collar of off-shore foul weather gear is worth its weight in gold in really wet conditions.

*Feet:* Don't forget good socks... and boots that you can cinch the legs of your foulies around. Wet feet are no fun...and lead to blisters, and other problems.

*Hands:* The gloves have to be waterproof. I like 3mm Neoprene gloves. Ideally, they'll have a gauntlet type cuff that you can tighten your double cuff foul weather gear sleeves around-with one cuff inside and on outside of the glove.

*BTW, insulating your torso is far more important than your legs most of the time.* If you can keep your feet, hands, and body core warm, the rest of it doesn't really seem to matter all that much.

*Face:* A set of ski goggles does wonders when it is blowing like stink and driving rain/spray in to your face.

*Foul weather gear: * The good stuff is worth the extra money you pay for it. It has to be waterproof... and the breathable gear is better than non-breathable gear. A high collar, adjustable length hood, neoprene, latex or PVC inner cuffs on the wrists, with an outer cuff on the sleeves, double flaps for the front zipper, drawstring for the waist and bottom of the jacket, velcro adjustable straps on the leg cuffs are all important.

*Things to avoid:* Cotton... worst material you can have for clothing... it soaks up a lot of water and doesn't stay warm when wet. Wool or synthetics are much better choices for materials. Coastal foul weather gear seem to be water repellent, and in a really good storm, leave you soaked as badly as not wearing anything at all.

Shivering is always a bad sign... it means you're losing too much heat, and that your body is trying to generate more by shivering. If you're shivering and then stop and get sleepy... hypothermia is setting in... and that's really not good.

Keep well hydrated and fed. Your body needs fuel on crappy days. Avoid alcohol and caffeine since both tend to dehydrate you and cause you to loose more body heat more quickly. Alcohol is worse than caffeine, so if you need one or the other, go for the caffeine.


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## pegasus1457 (Apr 14, 2002)

I agree with everything that SD said in the previous post, but would like to add a detail --

I have been using a Henri Lloyd suit for the last 6 years and it is fantastic.
The fabric was called TP2000 (it may have evolved into a newer product) and the trousers are salopettes -- this model has a top like a wet suit that goes over the shoulders. It is much more comfortable than bib-with-suspenders, which end up binding on your shoulders. If you can find this style of trousers you should go for it.

You should also count on buying your foul weather gear in a bricks-and-mortar store (not online). I went to the store looking for a different brand that got good ratings in a sailing magazine, but they didn't fit me well, whereas the HL did. It is important that they fit comfortably allowing for a heavy layer underneath.

I sat in the cockpit one whole night waiting for wind during a pouring rain and remained warm and dry, wearing my HL's.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

One last point.... get your foulies a bit oversized, so that you can wear layers underneath them.  Salopettes are better than bibs, but not as common and harder to find. In any case, you want something with a fairly high top, so splashes and spray don't get down your pants from the top.


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## tomaz_423 (Feb 5, 2006)

I agree with Dog that head is important, only IIRC 40% of body heat is lost through your head, not 60%. 
Since head is perhaps about 10% of surface it really does not matter if you loose temperature 4 time faster or 6 times faster - it i important to remember to protect hour head. 
Dog, As I am not sure in my number - could you provide your source - I do not have the book here, but I think 40% is from a diving school and was consistent with my previous knowledge from scouts and climbing.


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## pegasus1457 (Apr 14, 2002)

sailingdog said:


> One last point.... get your foulies a bit oversized, so that you can wear layers underneath them.


SD, you really have to form the habit of *reading* the previous post before you respond to it  [I had just said that]


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Peg-

Hadn't even seen your post when I wrote that... 


pegasus1457 said:


> SD, you really have to form the habit of *reading* the previous post before you respond to it  [I had just said that]


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*LADIES!!*Don't make me put my heels on and come down there


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

I've been thinking about heated clothing too, like the kind bike riders use when they ride motorcycles in very cold weather. It's low voltage so you don't have to worry about electrocuting yourself I don't think  But I would make sure before I tried it on a boat.

I'm concerned about hypothermia too of course. Right now when I get really cold I go in the house and take a warm shower and that warms me right up, but that probably wouldn't be possible on a boat. The next best thing might be warm drinks and sitting near the heat, or some kind of an electric blanket, but I don't know how much electricity that would use.

I've heard (read ?) that there are emergency suits that some people carry in extreme environments to respond to hypothermia, I assume they are electric. I'm not talking about the survival suits for life raft deployment, I'm talking about an emergency suit you use to bring people out of hypothermia. I remember at least one boater who claimed to have one on their boat.

If it's really cold I sometimes use the little chemical packets that heat up when you open them up. They are not a long term solution, but it's amazing how good warming your hands up can feel when you are really cold, especially if you need to work on something with your hands.

Edit ..

I almost forgot one of my favorite things - a warm water bottle. Yes, straight out of the 1930's, a plain old rubber water bottle that you put warm water in and then keep it with you. Best used for camping when you are going to sleep, but might be useful in the cockpit of a boat too.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Some of the newer ski gloves have little vents that you can breathe into to warm the interior of the glove up. From what I've been told they work fairly well...but I don't own a set... stopped skiing years ago....


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

*My take..*

I'm a sailor, winter alpine climber, tele-skier, ice climber etc.. After spending nearly $600.00 on a Henri LLoyd jacket for an offshore trip I was sure glad I had my mountain climbing shell with me!

I had a Patagonia Gore-Tex mountaineering jacket with me that I paid $229.00 for that blew away my $600.00 Henri Lloyd.

Climbing jackets are designed to move freely. Your arms can move easily and the hood is articulated as well as the arms. They also tend to have better venting and are lighter in weight.

Wearing my Henri Lloyd was like wearing a firemans suit. Totally uncomfortable! It also did not breath worth a darn, and the fleece lined collar just collected salt spray and irritated my neck. The collar was so stiff it chaffed my ears until they bled. This was the point where I actually dug our my Patagonia. Granted it was a windy and wet trip but this is what the Lloyd stuff is supposed to be designed for. The hood on my Lloyd was designed like it was an afterthought. "Oh crap we forgot to put a hood on this jacket quick send a drawing to the guys in China before they go into production..." ????!!!

Since that experience I truly feel bad for people wearing "marine foulies". The design of the high altitude gear sold at Patagonia, The North Face, EMS, REI, Backcountry.com etc. etc. is meant to withstand winds of 80+mph snow, ice and freezing rain while remaining easy to move in and waterproof + breathable. Buy yourself a nice 3 layer Gore-tex shell from North Face, Patagonia, EMS, Mountain Hardwear, Arc'teryx, Cloudveil, Marmot or one of the other quality names and you'll be fine, most likely pay less and be far more comfortable and able to move.

The one thing you will miss on many alpine jackets is a waterproof drip cuff but honestly it's never been an issue for me. The key is fit, fit, fit! make sure you can fit your chin in the collar when the jacket is zipped all the way up and it's not strangling you. make sure you get a hood with good "cinching" and that seals well around your face. If it's real nasty weather a pair of ski goggles is a very nice supplement to your foul weather gear..


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Halekai-

Your chandler must rip you off... I got my top-of-line Musto MPX jacket for about the same price as you got your Patagonia... and never had a problem with it—other than the sleeves being a bit long.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

sailingdog said:


> Halekai-
> 
> Your chandler must rip you off... I got my top-of-line Musto MPX jacket for about the same price as you got your Patagonia... and never had a problem with it-other than the sleeves being a bit long.


Sorry that price was for jacket and bibs my mistake. If I racall the jacket was the major portion of that $600.00 though.

By the way the Musto gear is actually better fitting and has at least some articulation when compared to the Lloyd "astronaut suit" and that's not a bad price for a Musto. I still prefer my alpine gear though for it's fit, breathability and freedom of movement..


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

The Henri Lloyd gear must use mannikins to do the design... can't move in it at all... That's one reason I went with the musto gear. BTW, the Musto I got is off-shore quality, which is a lot more durable and heavy duty compared to the coastal stuff. The coastal gear is crap compared to most of the winter ski gear I've used or the offshore foulies.


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## genieskip (Jan 1, 2008)

I have very little use for Gore tex. Sooner or later (usually sooner rather than later) it weeps water the wrong direction, especially in harsh conditions. Yeah, I have a fancy offshore modern gear I wear when conditions are semi-tough, but when staying dry is really important I put on my godawful-neon-pink totally impermeable oilskins, bought in Nova Scotia at a fisherman's store. Fisherman's gear kept me dry through three Transatlantic races and a dozen Bermudas etc and I wouldn't go offshore without them


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## pegasus1457 (Apr 14, 2002)

Freesail99 said:


> I have worn an old fashioned yellow rain suit over everything else I had on. It kept me dry. Think Gloucester fisherman......


The trouble with the traditional yellow suits is that they are coated and not breathable. If you are reasonably active for a bit, working on the deck, for example, the perspiration you generate will end up soaking the inner layers of clothing, which will guarantee that you get cold.

The breathable stuff is expensive (perhaps $700 for a full suit) but worth every penny IMHO.


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## pegasus1457 (Apr 14, 2002)

sailingdog said:


> The Henri Lloyd gear must use mannikins to do the design... can't move in it at all... That's one reason I went with the musto gear. BTW, the Musto I got is off-shore quality, which is a lot more durable and heavy duty compared to the coastal stuff. The coastal gear is crap compared to most of the winter ski gear I've used or the offshore foulies.


That was the point I was making about trying it on. Everyone's body shape is different, and any brand of clothing is not going to fit everyone equally well.
So don't try to save a few bucks by buying it online -- go to a store or stores where you can actually try it for size and flexibility of movement.


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## timebandit (Sep 18, 2002)

wind_magic said:


> I've been thinking about heated clothing too, like the kind bike riders use when they ride motorcycles in very cold weather. It's low voltage so you don't have to worry about electrocuting yourself I don't think  But I would make sure before I tried it on a boat.


I use an electric vest on the bike and on the boat. It's is just like getting inside a toaster. I have had it soaked in rain water and it worked fine. It is 12 volt and you need a thermostat controller or you will be turning it on and off.
The vest it self is made with thinsulate and is warm by itself.
I wear pollypropolene long underwear next to my skin, vest, light wool sweater and my leathers.
On the boat if I get a chill I just put it on and in just a jiffy I am warm. I am not sure what salt water will do.


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## ekotopia (Jan 3, 2008)

Hi there, I just heard from a motor cycle guy - that there are suits with 12 volt hook-up. that warms U up almost instantly. Would be a good idea to have under the foulies- unless thinking of moving around a lot ( dancing etc )
Cheers


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

timebandit said:


> I use an electric vest on the bike and on the boat. It's is just like getting inside a toaster. I have had it soaked in rain water and it worked fine. It is 12 volt and you need a thermostat controller or you will be turning it on and off.
> The vest it self is made with thinsulate and is warm by itself.
> I wear pollypropolene long underwear next to my skin, vest, light wool sweater and my leathers.
> On the boat if I get a chill I just put it on and in just a jiffy I am warm. I am not sure what salt water will do.


I've heard that about the heated clothing, that it is incredibly warm. I know on my old bike that I got caught out a few times in cold weather without the right clothing and I wished I had some of that heated stuff to wear.

As far as salt water is concerned, one vendor site I read said that water didn't hurt the clothing because it was some kind of special plastic covered wire, I don't know, probably just marketing hype, but they did mention it in reference to sailing. Probably the hardest part would be bringing a 12vdc plug out to the cockpit to plug into and not getting it tangled up in lines.



ekotopia said:


> Hi there, I just heard from a motor cycle guy - that there are suits with 12 volt hook-up. that warms U up almost instantly. Would be a good idea to have under the foulies- unless thinking of moving around a lot ( dancing etc )
> Cheers


I think I am going to order some heated clothing and see if it'll work for me. Can't hurt to try, doesn't even cost that much really. Maybe I'll start with just a pair of socks or something, I can wear those while reading a book anyway. 

Maybe I can sit and read sailnet with some warm feet.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

I had a heated vest (from a company called Eclipse IIRC) when I was riding year round. It was great under winter motorcycle gear or a snowmobile suit. The vest was plenty to keep my whole body warm. The only downsides on a boat are unplugging and plugging when you have to leave the cockpit and the power drain.

I sailed the Skagerak in April and crossed the Atlantic in May/June wearing Gill Atlantic foulies -- they have an inner jumpsuit in addition to bibs and jacket. I've been very pleased with the system. 

For the innermost layer I'm a huge fan of Damart products. I was first pointed to them by a Chicago motorcycle police officer who said all his buddies wore them riding straight through Chicago winters. I carried #3 (medium) and #5 (super warm) level stuff sailing the Skagerak and then on the crossing. I never needed the #5 but I felt better knowing I had it. Damart has a very light presence in the US these days -- the last time I ordered anything it actually shipped from the UK. It is absolutely worth the hassle. No question.

Since I got back to the US and in the much more benign winters of the Chesapeake I discovered that Zippo (the lighter people) still make old fashioned fuel-powered hand warmers. I got one at a outdoor store and I'm sold. The next time I get the chance I'm getting more. On a full load of lighter fluid (3 oz?) it runs for 24 hours with a pleasant warmth. There is no open flame; it uses some kind of glassy catalyst material. Outstanding!

I also carry a box of the chemical handwarmers for guests who underestimate how cold their hands may get.


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

SVAuspicious said:


> I had a heated vest (from a company called Eclipse IIRC) when I was riding year round. It was great under winter motorcycle gear or a snowmobile suit. The vest was plenty to keep my whole body warm. The only downsides on a boat are unplugging and plugging when you have to leave the cockpit and the power drain.


I read up on the power drain because that is a concern of mine too, and it is certainly not non-existent. Using Gerbing as an example, they say that the socks use about 1.8 - 2.1 amps (at 12vdc'ish), pants 3.6 - 4 amps, and a vest liner uses 4.5 - 4.6. That's about 11 amps for the whole outfit, or 130 watts continuous. That's enough to be concerned about if all you had were solar panels, though it probably wouldn't be a concern at all with a wind generator in winter.

I ordered something earlier today to try it out and see how well they work.


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## billyruffn (Sep 21, 2004)

I'd second what 'Dog' to say and add that in addition to leaving room in sizing the foulies, the same applies for boots. I have two pair -- cheapo West Marine rubber boots for summer sized to fit my bare feet as I don't need them often, and a pair of Dubarry sailing boots (not cheap) sized to fit my feet with two pair of socks for cold weather sailing. I use a thin poly-prop sock under a heavy wool sock. On my first trip north of the Arctic Circle, I had only the cheapo rubber boots and tried to keep warm with heavy socks. It didn't work for two reasons: solid rubber is a very poor thermal insulator and the tight fit caused by the heavy socks cut the circulation in my feet. 

Goretex and other 'breathable' materials are definitely worth the money in both foulies and boots. I've found that if you wear 'wickable' material under non-breathing foulies you can end up getting 'wet' from the inside as the moisture wicked off the skin can't get through the waterproof layers of the the outer garmets.

If you want to stay warm and dry at sea, buy the best foulies and best boots you can afford. In my experience, it's hard to beat Henri Lloyd and Dubarry gear.


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## jheldatksuedu (Jul 4, 2006)

Synthetic or wool stocking cap and socks, layers of clothing and good fowl weather gear. Keep your head and feet warm, head because it's where most heat is lost and feet because that's where it seems to hurt the most when they are cold and wet. Get stuff big so things can breath, it's air that does the insulating. I wear my life vest under the fowl weather gear, BIG, BIGGER, BIGGEST, that's best. I use wool socks and big pullover boots, use the drawstring on your hood to keep the water and breeze out. Make sure your foul weather gear is big enough to fit over your high top boots. Good waterproof gloves, again with plenty of air in them, keep your hands dry when needed, if you have to tie a knot the gloves come off, but as long as the rest of the body is warm it's OK. The old kids mitten trick with the string through the sleeves to connect them together might be good, I do add a lanyard with a loop so I can "tie" them or hook them someplace. Never went so far as to string my sleeves though. The loop, a slip knot fits around the cuff before you put them on. A woodstove in the cabin is real nice too, burning coal or wood (preferred) or even diesel. I keep a couple milk crates of kindling full from trips ashore. It doesn't take much to take the chill off a sailboat and it sure is nice to have a place to warm your hands and keep a kettle of water warm for hot chocolate.


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## DrB (Mar 29, 2007)

*Dry suit*

I am an avid climber, skier, cyclist, etc. that likes to go out in all types of weather. Gore-Tex stuff is the best for a variety of reasons including, lifetime guarantee, waterproof and breathability. The problem with a lot of the lightweight Gore-tex stuff use in climbing or biking stuff is that it doesn't often do well with abrasion; which can be nemisis if you are sliding/rubbing against a deck surface on a boat. My Henri Llyod stuff is almost like pack cloth, so it is bombproof, but very heavy.

If you are going to be on-deck in nasty stuff all day, I recommend a good drysuit; specifically one designed for sea kayaking. The are very maneuverable, and waterproof. The newer models have very comfortable and waterproof punch through necks instead of latex seals and you'll have no water down the sleeve problems because of wrist seals. Almost all now come with integral WP socks. A layer or two underneath and you'll stay dry and comfy in water as low as 35 deg F.

The cost anywhere from 400 to $900, depending on gore-tex or not.

Check out NRS for models. I have one and use it all the time for both spring/fall and winter kayaking in the NOrtheast and the days where it gets crummy during an early spring or late fall sail.

Doc


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Keeping dry*

The only thing that will keep you dry is the old fashioned yellow rubber suit.
Not the high tech and expensive wear that will only keep you dry for a few hours.

SH


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

The only problem with drysuits is that they're more harder to get in and out of and make adjusting layers much more difficult.


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## soulesailor (Nov 18, 2007)

I've had all kinds of gore-tex shells over the years and eventually, out in the driving rain all day, they definitely get water-logged. PVC, even though it doesn't breathe and you soak yourself from within, is the only truly waterproof clothing I've encountered. It also drip dries in a moist environment whereas my gore-tex shells never seem to. 

DrB- be careful kayaking around in a drysuit. I lost a good friend who drown in a rapid in Oregon during a swim because his drysuit's neck gasket let water in. His suit filled with water and pulled him down before anyone could lend a helping hand. After that incident everyone of us got rid of our drysuits. I don't think this would be an issue on a sailboat, though.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

His drysuit's neck gasket either wasn't fitted properly or was damaged if that happened.


soulesailor said:


> I've had all kinds of gore-tex shells over the years and eventually, out in the driving rain all day, they definitely get water-logged. PVC, even though it doesn't breathe and you soak yourself from within, is the only truly waterproof clothing I've encountered. It also drip dries in a moist environment whereas my gore-tex shells never seem to.
> 
> DrB- be careful kayaking around in a drysuit. I lost a good friend who drown in a rapid in Oregon during a swim because his drysuit's neck gasket let water in. His suit filled with water and pulled him down before anyone could lend a helping hand. After that incident everyone of us got rid of our drysuits. I don't think this would be an issue on a sailboat, though.


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

My experience in heavy rain while hiking and camping is that it's hard to beat a poncho. On a boat I think a poncho and high boots would be good though I don't have enough experience to say for certain. A poncho over anything would be better than anything by itself, and if you have a poncho over most clothing and jackets it still breaths because the air can circulate under it. I think poncho's are highly under rated, even by hikers.


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## soulesailor (Nov 18, 2007)

Yes, his neck gasket was damaged, as was just about everybody's drysuit somehow or other. It showed us a scenario we never thought would happen could, and does. After that we dressed for warmth but not for water impermeability.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Salopetes: In YnGlish we call those "farmer johns".

Divers' neoprene booties, available in different thicknesses with soft or hard soles, also make great foul wx boots as long as your pants are long enough to overlap. Whatever water gets in, gets warm, and they are way lighter than conventional boots. Cheaper, too.

I used to wear a wool watch cap, but got tired of trying to duck the sun when looking aloft. One night I'm watching "MASH" and I see Radar is wearing a watch cap with a short bill on it--so I dug them up. They are called "Jeep Caps" and five years ago you had to search the surplus stores to find them, one size fits all in khaki or black. Now, they are a FASHION ITEM available in all sorts of fibers and colors. Plenty still to be found for $5-10.


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## jmunson2 (Sep 5, 2006)

*my two cents*

Namaste!

Been a while since I've posted (been busy with all kinds of things).

I'd like to add my two cents to the discussion.

I've "sailed" (OK, we motored as sailing wasn't an option) from Portsmouth, RI, to Annapolis, MD, in May of last year. It was very, very cold, very, very windy, and a bit wet (we were blessed not to get rained on).

Here's what I wore:

Undershirt. Can be anything, cotton, whatever. In this case it's the layer you want to add the air pocket you need.

Silk undershirt. Longsleeve. A MUST.

Silk longjohns. A MUST.

Thermal skiing tights. I have a pair from my cross-country days (not too many of them unfortunately). I skiied once when the windchill brought temps down to -20. I had no idea it was that cold (wasn't cold and didn't feel it, but the wind was definitely ripping). 'Twas up in Minnesota.

Heavy jeans. Helps keep the wind out actually.

Turtleneck. Heavy weight is better. The neck helps to retain body heat.

Fisherman's oiled wool sweater. Really heavy, stretchy, with good loft. Mine is an old Land's End sweater (maybe about 15 years old?). I can usually wear just that over a turtleneck, silk undershirt, t-shirt and be quite toasty - no jacket needed. Although on the water I DID need the jacket.

Synthetic skull/watch cap. EMS had a nice spandexy thing that really kept my head warm.

Fleece cap. Wore that over the watch cap. No problems with heat loss at all.

SLAM foul weather bib overall. Breathable PVC. Worked GREAT! A little tough to get out of with layers on, but, with practice it got easier.

SLAM jacket to match. Not great for heat retention, but did add a layer. 'sides, it matched. 

NorthFace Summit Series Mountain Parka/Climbing Jacket. That jacket is awesome! Warm, dry, waterproof, windproof, and lightweight. Great hood too! Held up under salt water spray pretty darn well to boot.

SmartWool socks. Can't beat 'em.

Waterproof, insulated, hiking boots. Perhpas a no-no as far as deck cleaning goes, BUT, in cold/wet, you can't beat 'em! Mine didn't leave any marks and I was glad I took them! EMS top o the line brand too.

Eddie Bauer thinsulate gloves. I used these as a liner.

West Marine cold-weather sailing gloves. Windproof and waterproof, with cuffs. Light on the insulation (hence the use of the other gloves above). Once lined the combination kept my hands from freezing.

One thing to bear in mind on a boat is that you do more sitting than moving in most cases. So, you have to dress a little heavier than if you were constantly moving. By varying the layers you can accomodate much by way of temps/conditions.

Also, go with wool or silk as either will still keep you warm when wet. Cotton won't do squat for you that way (although as an undershirt coupled with the silk it works out just fine). Fleece also keeps you warm when wet. Though fleece can easily cause you to become overheated. Watch the artificials as they may not function as advertised - such has been my experience as an outdoorsman of sorts.

The best advice is to dress such that you either don't sweat or keep that to a minimum. Lots of sweat is your enemy as that will eventually chill you.

Having used both breatheable PVC and GoreTex, I can recommend both. I like my SLAM gear - it isn't the offshore rig they sell, but it worked really well on top of the proper layers. I appreciated greatly my NorthFace jacket. I've bought NorthFace most of my adult life and don't intend to switch (despite their seemingly really high prices) as the garments hold up really well under the harsh treatments I give 'em.

In cold winds, wrap something around your neck such as a scarf - you'll appreciate that!

Well, that's enough - my 3 year old's behind needs to be changed (he refuses to train up at this point).

Peace, Love, and Light,

/s/ Jon C. Munson II

P.S. I don't know if these are made any more, but there used to be a two-layer "longjohn" system of cotton on the underside and wool on the outer. I used that when installing security alarms and that stuff kept me quite toasty! So I'd recommend that as well.


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## Don Huseman (Aug 22, 2001)

*staying warm and dry at sea*

in my experiance sailing the west coast ,I find that the hood on your foul weather jacket is very important. If it does not fit tight around your face then it is not vey good. If the neck part of the jacket go all the way up to your knose then it won't keep your face warm and dry. If the hood acts like a air scoop and blow air and water on your face, especialy your check then it is no good. I have West Marine offshore and it works great. 
As to the low voltage suit: when you are soaked in salt water 12v will shock you. I was working on a tweve volt running light taking green water over me and I was getting shocked by the tweve volts on my hands from the bare wires. If you could stay dry I think it would be ok. It is better than getting hypthermia.
Don


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Personally, I think it is better to dress appropriately for the conditions, than it is to rely on heated garments... chances are very likely that if it is so cold that you *need* the heated garments, the biggest danger you'll have is icebergs-at least on salt water.


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> Personally, I think it is better to dress appropriately for the conditions, than it is to rely on heated garments... chances are very likely that if it is so cold that you *need* the heated garments, the biggest danger you'll have is icebergs-at least on salt water.


Or your taking blood thinners


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## ughmo2000 (Feb 12, 2003)

Racer you could have stopped reading at Dog's post. He covered exactly what you need to know about staying warm in wet/cold environments.

Synthetics head to toe.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Even if you're taking blood thinners, I think you're better dressing appropriately, than you are relying on heated garments. If you're relying on heated garments, and not dressed appropriately, what do you think is gonna happen if the electricity craps out... if you thought you were in bad shape... you ain't seen nothing.


Freesail99 said:


> Or your taking blood thinners


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## Idiens (Jan 9, 2007)

I recommend a wheelhouse.


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## robertovillate (Jul 30, 2000)

A lot of good ideas on this thread.

One of the best and cheapest investments I made years ago was in a pair of goretex sox ($40?) If you wear a very thin pair of synthetic, cashmere, or merino sox underneath that will protect them and als help wick moisture away. You can wear deck shoes right over them or put another pair of sox over them if you want to wear sea boots (Dubarry's are awesome). Sometimes I wear neoprene boots with thin soles over the goretex sox because the feel under foot is so much better and less clumsy if you are working on deck aggressively. Obviously you need to fit everything properly in advance otherwise if things fit too tightly poor circulation will work against you. I cannot say enough about having "happy feet". 

I also kitesurf in very cold water. The Ocean Rodeo Pyro Pro suit has a front entry zipper and lots of reinforcement, goretex panels in armpits and neck area. I had a non-goretex drysuit before and I am now much happier with the goretex version...well worth the extra cost. I can layer up under the drysuit as needed for every conceivable wind/air/water temp combination. The drawback of a drysuit is that it requires proper care and maintenance and replacing seals from time to time. You must take really good care of the zipper because replacement is very costly. Plus repairs often need to be done by someone with the right materials and know-how.

I also use a neoprene surfing hood that has a dicky style collar and that help enormously, sometimes with a neoprene beany under that as well...The collar on the hood helps shed water away from my neck.

Hands: always a challenge to keep warm when air is below 40F, windy, and water temp below 50F. Neoprene gloves often constrict circulation. I often just wear a cheap ($2) pair of fleece gloves, sometimes with rubber gloves over them (either thin nitrile or loose fitting, high cuff heavy duty rubber gloves.

I've kitesurfed in 35F air (or below) with 45F water plus 20kts+ winds and my body has been plenty warm. The first thing to go cold are the hands and then feet, only because I cannot wear really thick footwear or gloves when kiting, bit for sailing that's not as much of an issue.

If you are not working vigorously and not generating lots of body heat I find that keeping your body super warm reduces the tendency for hands and feet to get cold. Once hand and feet are cold it's almost impossiible to rewarm. If you get overheated you can cool of quickly by taking your hood off.

A company called "Mystic" is making some "dry gloves" that I would like to try soon.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Umm... that's because, if your body core temperature drops, the body will reduce circulation to the arms and legs to reduce heat loss-leading to the hands and feet getting cold... Once you become hypothermic... it's a bad situation and if you're not dressed properly, it ain't gonna get better.


> If you are not working vigorously and not generating lots of body heat I find that keeping your body super warm reduces the tendency for hands and feet to get cold. Once hand and feet are cold it's almost impossiible to rewarm. If you get overheated you can cool of quickly by taking your hood off.


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## seamountie (May 29, 2001)

Greetings Group,
Just had to contirbute to this thread. I live and work on the water, live on a 37' sailboat, work looking after a remote fly-in fishing resort on the Central Coast of BC, Canada. Everything in this area (including the postoffice) floats. I have to get out in everything, if there are relieving lines to be strung, or another lodge needs help. I have tried most different types of wet gear, and investigated when they didn't work as advertised. 

gor-tex (note lower case - generic name like kleenex) 
I have found this type of fabric sadly over rated for our use. This fabric is know as micro-pore. A laminated fabric that has little holes in it that will not let liquid water through, but will let water vapour through. How efficient this is depends on the difference in vapour preassure between what's next to your body, and what's outside. At sea level in the rain, the atmosphere is almost super saturated, so there will be minimal transfer. At the top of a mountian - works great. Also Gor-Tex (brand name) is heavily controlled and you have to be licenced to make anything out of it. You pay big bucks for the name. If you feel you have to have micro-pore fabric, look at other brands as well.

As an alternative to the usual brands, look to hunting wear; particularly that make for waterfowl hunters. It is excellent stuff - at least as good as sailing; warm, flexible and very hardy. And generally much less expensive. AND if you look you do NOT have to get it in camo (ewwwww).

The one item of clothing that is NOT mentioned in here, that is the #1 choice among those of us here that live and work on the water, is the cruiser suit - aka a floatation suit. Not the survival kind, the next lighter one. Warm in ALL conditions (the floatation acts as a very good isulator). It will not breath or allow air circulation so if you work hard in it you will get wet by your own sweat (and I don't care what's been said, I have tried Gor-Tex and it gets me wet from the inside as well). BUT, and this is the big but, you will still stay warm!!!! I will take wet & warm over dry & cold.

The cruiser suit brands are different in flexability and the current favourite up here is the one made by Helly-Hansen. Mustang and Buoy-o-Boy also make them. There may be others in other parts of the planet that I have not seen yet - so investigate. If you are sitting at the helm most of the time, this is The Answer. If you are working the fore deck, I would use the hunting clothing (layered - but that has been delt with previously). In North America try Cabela's. They even have inexpensive micro-pore stuff.

This is a great forum, I love reading it as there is a minimum of flaming and getting off topic. Keep it up.

R


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## Mamu (Jan 7, 2008)

*Heat loss through the head with cites. Ending that discussion.*

*USCG's Federal Requirements and Safety Tips for Recreational Boats*

Hypothermia

Immersion in water speeds the loss of body heat and can lead to hypothermia. Hypothermia is the abnormal lowering of internal body temperature. If your boat capsizes it will likely float on or just below the surface. Outboard powered vessels built after 1978 are designed to support you even if full of water or capsized. To reduce the effects of hypothermia get in or on the boat. Try to get as much of your body out of the water as possible. If you can't get in the boat a PFD will enable you to keep your head out of the water. This is very important because about 50% of body heat loss is from the head.

*The Wilderness Medicine Newsletter - Frozen Mythbusters, Nov/Dec 2004*

Now, what about hypothermia and heat loss through the head? 
If the hypothermia victim is not shivering, they are at rest, and the heat loss through the head remains about 7%. But, this is important, if they are shivering, the percent of heat loss via the scalp can increase to upwards of 55%, so protecting the head well is a very important part of treating the hypothermia patient. And as you can imagine, the primary defense against the cold and hypothermia is vasoconstriction of the peripheral circulation, this shunts blood to the core, reduces circulation to the skin, and increases the percent of heat loss through the scalp.

#1 The difference is that the shivering hypothermia patient is indeed exercising, but they do not vasodilate the peripheral circulation; the shivering muscles increase metabolic demand and cardiac demand so the patients do increase their cardiac output; therefore, they do increase cerebral circulation; therefore, they do increase the percent of blood loss through their head.

#2 How does being in water change the equation?

Life-preserver, personal flotation device (PFD), research has shown that when in the water, if your head and neck are wet, you cool faster. This is why modern PFD's hold the person in the water with their head and neck out of the water; even if unconscious, to decrease the rate of heat loss into the water.

#3 What difference does hair on your head or facial hair make?

None. In order for hair or fur to provide a protective thermal barrier, it has to be much denser than what we humans grow and it has to be in layers of different types of fur to provide a thermal barrier. Beards are great, but they do not keep you any warmer. And bald is beautiful.

Mariners, I've enjoyed reading your thoughts about how to keep warm. It gives food for thought. However, you do lose 50% of your heat through your head as you can see and Wilderness answered the why.

Mamu, the sailor.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

thank you mamu good reading


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

Heated socks arrived but haven't had a chance to try them out yet. 

I will report back later!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

BTW, IIRC, water is about 20x as efficient at wicking heat from your body as air is... so staying dry is very key to staying warm. Carry a couple of changes of warm clothes in a waterproof bag... even if it is only a big ziplock baggie. If you get soaked, and get a chance, switch into dry clothes ASAP. 

Yes, I know this is basic common sense... but you'd be surprised at how many people forget it when they're out sailing. 

Also, avoid alcohol, since it dilates the surface blood vessels and makes your body lose heat faster and it tends to dehydrate you. Avoid caffeine for the same reasons.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

sd-
14x is what I've seen quoted, but who's counting? By all means avoid the caffiene, but seek out the coffeepot, it is often in a warm and dry location.<G>


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

HS-

I've seen figures as low as 14 and as high as 26...so I figure 20x is a good average.  Hunting down the coffee pot is an excellent idea, especially if it is full of hot coffee... Hugging it for warmth is usually frowned upon though. 

IIRC, it varies with salinity and temperature. At 25˚C, the thermal conductivity of air is 0.024 W/m K), pure water 0.58 (W/m K), and salt water a bit less than that. It goes down a bit as the temperature decreases IIRC. BTW, .58/.024=24.167. A couple of pages for reference. LINK, LINK, LINK


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

wind_magic said:


> Heated socks arrived but haven't had a chance to try them out yet.


Ahhhh ...

It is cold tonight and my feet were getting cold and so the little hamster wheel started turning in my brain and I thought ... heated socks arrived + feet are cold + get off butt and go get them and figure out how they work = warm feet. So, I went and got the socks and figured them out and now I am wearing them.

My quick review is .. pretty nice. 

They are not "hot", but very mildly warm. In fact I wasn't even sure they were working at first, and then I checked all the connections to make sure they were wired up right, and then I checked to make sure I was giving them enough power. But then they started to warm up some, not a lot, but just a kind of warm comfortable feeling. I really have to use the back of my hand to even feel any heat generated by the socks it's that subtle, I can't feel the heat with the palm of my hand. But the overall effect is a very pleasing warm pair of feet, especially around the cold toes area. 

Whether they work on a boat or not I have no idea, but they seem to work pretty well for writing reviews of heated socks in front of the computer. 

If I had boots on, or shoes, I'm pretty sure I would have to turn the controller down so they wouldn't get too hot. As is they are very comfortable. Hmm, I bet the heated glove liners would be really really nice outside when working on something.

Edit, I put some boots on and the socks do get a bit warm if you have them all the way up, but even with boots on it isn't uncomfortable. Nice ...


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## coconnor (Mar 3, 2004)

*Warm and Dry*

I agree in general with Dog's recommendations with one exception. Legs make a big difference in keeping warm. Torsos sweat a lot more and you have to continually adjust layering. Legs don't sweat as much and warm legs help your toes and also reduce the layering changes because you feel warmer without sweating.

I spent 4 weeks in Antarctica on a 54' sailboat. Normal gear - always polypropylene socks and synthetic underwear - Cabela's silk blend underwear is light and incredibly warm. Then, if it's cold enough, fleece pants, vest, and jacket. I wore a thinsulate bib over that. Then offshore foul weather gear. I usually had at least 2 pairs of socks (3 for diving). Thinsulate gloves and poly liners.

Here in Texas, if it's chilly, I find the socks and underwear above works with outer socks, jeans and a flannel shirt and fleece jacket. A fleece vest is great because it keeps you warmer but vents the heat too. Bibs are nice for the same reason as they keep your legs and torso warm but easily vent excess heat. Cabela's has thinsulate bibs that can substitute for pants if you need to go on deck in a hurry.

My two cents - varies for everyone but I would NOT skimp on foul weather gear. Get coastal or full offshore breathable gear, with seals to go around your foul weather boots. Being dry and warm makes all the difference in being able to stay above deck and handle the boat. A casually stashed windbreaker is miserable when the weather turns.

Clint


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

tomaz_423 said:


> I agree with Dog that head is important, only IIRC 40% of body heat is lost through your head, not 60%.
> Since head is perhaps about 10% of surface it really does not matter if you loose temperature 4 time faster or 6 times faster - it i important to remember to protect hour head.
> Dog, As I am not sure in my number - could you provide your source - I do not have the book here, but I think 40% is from a diving school and was consistent with my previous knowledge from scouts and climbing.


I haven't posted in a while... just lurking around, but I thought my First Aid background could help here. You're pretty much _both_ right... heat loss to the head is 50%. I quote:

_"Blood flow to the head comprises about 20% of the body's total cardiac output and cannot be restricted significantly by vasoconstrictive responses. This means that the heat loss from the uncovered head can account for as much as 50% of the body's total heat production at 4oC. Mother was right, if your hands are cold, put on your hat! Conversely, if your skin is hot, shade your head."_

This is from "Regulation of Heat Gain and Loss" a 1994 study by Dr. Charles Stewart, MD, FACEP

The entire study can be viewed here:
http://www.storysmith.net/Articles/Thermal regulation.pdf


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Looking—

Thanks for the link to the PDF.


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## Plumper (Nov 21, 2007)

I also have been lurking and enjoying this thread. Some of it is a bit confusing. For example, if you lose more than 50% of your heat from your head then why don't we wear hats before we put the rest of our clothes on. I think that the real figure is somewhat less than 50%. Best headgear: Toque (watchcap) on top of a ball cap. Cheap and warm. You will need more than one if it is raining.

As for wearing skiing or climbing gear while sailing, that is also silly. As a skier and climber I have to say that both those sports require a completely different way of dressing because they are activities where one works hard all the time. If I wore those clothes sailing I would freeze. They are purposely designed for extremely sweaty sports. something that sailing is not. Climbing is all about light. Skiing is all about looks. No one skiis in the rain!

Floater suits - okay but really for the other end of the exercise scale. The fishing guides, whale watchers and rich fishermen wear them around here because they do absolutely nothing but sit, sometimes in the rain.

Wetsuits and drysuits- okay in dinghies. not yachts unless you like spending your day in a pool of sweat and you are only out for a short time. Neoprene socks, like walking in slime. I tried them this past summer. I was better off barefoot.

The real challenge of yachting gear is living in it for days at a time with activity levels varying from the low end (helmsman) to short bursts at the high output end (foredeck). It is material that doesn't get clogged with salt (like goretex does) and dries fairly quickly. It is good design that breathes and allows multiple layers underneath because of the different levels of activity by the various crew members at different times during a watch. It is tough. It is designed allowing for lifejackets and harnesses. What did Francis Joyon wear on this last little cruise? Ski pants and rubber socks?

One fellow did get it right, a pilothouse.

I spent 4 months last summer sailing in the pouring rain between the north end of Vancouver Island and Alaska. My two sets of foulies, both from different but good companies, one goretex the other not, still got soaked but I was dry as a bone inside my pilothouse. Once that Dickenson stove was lit even the foulies dried out.


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## Idiens (Jan 9, 2007)

I would think the 50% figure comes from a dressed person with a bare head. If we put as many layers on our heads as we put on our bodies in cold weather, the losses would be proportional to area. But even with hats and hoods and goggles, we leave nose and mouth exposed to breath. Breathing must account for a certain proportion of heat loss - cold in, warm out every few seconds.

I still vote for a wheelhouse.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

Plumper said:


> As for wearing skiing or climbing gear while sailing, that is also silly. As a skier and climber I have to say that both those sports require a completely different way of dressing because they are activities where one works hard all the time. If I wore those clothes sailing I would freeze. They are purposely designed for extremely sweaty sports. something that sailing is not. Climbing is all about light. Skiing is all about looks. No one skiis in the rain!
> 
> The real challenge of yachting gear is living in it for days at a time with activity levels varying from the low end (helmsman) to short bursts at the high output end (foredeck). It is material that doesn't get clogged with salt (like goretex does) and dries fairly quickly. It is good design that breathes and allows multiple layers underneath because of the different levels of activity by the various crew members at different times during a watch. It is tough. It is designed allowing for lifejackets and harnesses. What did Francis Joyon wear on this last little cruise? Ski pants and rubber socks?


With all due respect I have spent far more time, in temps well below 0 degrees F, in "silly" alpine gear and been PLENTY warm while not "sweating" as you put it.

Such as a four day February traverse of NH's Presidential range including Mt. Washington. Mt Washington is one of the coldest and deadliest mountains in the US due to it's freak positions at the convergence of multiple weather patterns. Do you think we are "sweating" while sitting in camp at night when the temp drops to 22 BELOW ZERO F with winds racing by at well over 60mph in our "silly" alpine gear? Sorry but I've yet to experience, or sail in, weather even approaching 15 degrees F let alone 22 BELOW ZERO. Your statement makes no sense from a practical point of view. oh I do ski in the rain & freezing rain and snow...

The fabric weight of the outer material the jacket is made of makes virtually no difference in real warmth. It is the air space trapped by "layers" that make the real difference in warmth. The outer "shell" of the jacket is designed to do three things: 1) keep water out, which Gore-Tex does 2) stop wind which Gore-Tex does and 3) to be breathable which Gore-Tex is.

Adding a thicker outer fabric such as in a Musto, Lloyd or Gill off shore rated garment only limits the breathability of the jacket and also restricts movement and agility.

I have owned and do own top line jackets from "marine" foul weather gear makers and alpine makers and find my alpine gear to do everything my offshore stuff does just a lot more comfortably. The hoods for instance are actually usable on alpine gear and are mere afterthoughts, in my opinion, on most, if not all, off shore jackets. The only area where an off shore jacket wins is drip cuffs but I have never had that become a problem even in massive seas and high winds.

Take for instance a fleece lined collar from an off shore jacket. Think about it? What does polyester do? It wicks moisture and creates a "dead air" space for insulating purposes. OK so now we have a large piece of fleece sewn to a waterproof, breathable nylon collar to which any moisture, if the collar is actually designed correctly, which mine was not, should wick through in the form of "vapor" so it can pass thought the breathable membrane of the outer fabric.

So what happens to the salt from the spray on your face or collar? Yes, you guessed it, it sticks to the surface of the fleece, more importantly the side facing your skin, because salt is not "moisture" or convertible to vapor from body heat so it sits there sucking any last bit of moisture out of your skin until your neck gets dry, chapped and irritated. Been there done that, ask me how I know this...

Please be careful with your contradictions as well. You stated _"It is material that doesn't get clogged with salt (like goretex does) and dries fairly quickly."

_Just for reference the top of the line gear available from Musto & Lloyd, the top two makers of offshore gear, IS GORE TEX! The rest of the garment line ups, for true "off shore" capability outerwear from companies like Gill and West Marine, is made of FAKE, KNOCK OFF or IMITATION water proof breathable Gore-Tex "like" material. Here are just a few of the top line off shore capable jackets:

Musto - MPX Off Shore Jacket

Musto - MPX Off Shore Race Jacket

Henri Lloyd - Gore-Tex Ocean Racer Jacket

Henri Lloyd - Gore-Tex Ocean Racer Jacket

Gill - OC Ocean Racer Jacket OCJ2 - Fake Gore-Tex called 5-Dot

Gore-Tex does not "clog" as so stated, unless ruined by improper washing, but does become less and less breathable with thicker and thicker outer fabrics that need to be "pushed" through.

The "leaking" of Gore-Tex, some people claim to have experienced, comes from the outer fabric "wetting out" from the lack of replenishing the DWR coating & thus severely limiting the breathing of the Gore-Tex and it's ability to push the vapor through a wetted out nylon. This resulting wetness is what you get wet from sweat condensation &NOT because the Gore-Tex let water molecules pass through it's membrane.

To be sure ANY of these garments work as designed they must periodically have the DWR (durable water repellency) re-applied. If your outer shell is "wetting out" it's time to replenish it's water repellent capabilities. I have been using NikWax products on my foul weather gear for years and the stuff still beads water like it did when it was brand new. Always use the NikWax wash first though before applying the TX Direct water repellent coating. NEVER wash Gore-Tex with a detergent and always use an approved cleaning agent such as NikWax - Tech Wash or Ivory Snow powder if you must use a "grocery store" cleaner.

NikWax makes both a spray and a wash in version of their DWR and it's called TX Direct!

P.S. Part of the reason I understand a little about outdoor gear is because I have been involved in the product testing phase (read free gear for about an hour or two's of report writing!). Below is a sampling of some of my jackets. These are some of my alpine climbing jackets...


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## Plumper (Nov 21, 2007)

I think you missed my point regarding skiing and climbing gear. "Sitting in camp at night when the temp drops to 22 BELOW ZERO F" is not skiing or climbing. It is my experience that at that point in the day I am wearing all the clothes I brought and many times I am stuffed inside my sleeping bag drinking hot tea. While that does compare with being a helmsman,the methods of staying warm are completely different. You could hardly steer from inside your sleeping bag with all your clothes on. During the climb up to that camp is when the technical benefits of proper mountain clothing come into play. That is when you are working up a head of steam and are more worried about sweating and getting soaked. I have never worked that hard, for that sustained a period, on any boat.

On the other hand, I have sat at the helm in very cold wet weather, for hours at a time, when good mobility took second place to warmth. Under those conditions the things that make mountain clothing great are in conflict with what makes ocean gear great.

For example, my absolute favourite piece of mountain equipment is my down sweater. It packs down to nothing, weighs a few ounces and is as warm as toast. At the end of the day I slip it on and bask in its warmth. I never take it sailing because it soaks up water like a sponge. On my boat I live in fleece and other bulky things because I have the room to bring them and they are still warm when damp. They also dry very quickly when the chance presents itself.

Your rant about fleece lined collars also doesn't make sense to me. First of all, why make a collar breathable when it is open at the top to the air? Secondly, my Patagonia mountaineering jacket, as well as my Henri Lloyd sailing coat boat have fleece lined collars although with different designs. Finally, I normally wear a fleece underneath both those coats with the collar turned up for even more protection. I like the fleece lining. The salt spray thing...I don't know. What is saltier, sweat or ocean spray?

The Goretex question. As someone else mentioned earlier in this thread, breathable membranes rely on a moisture differential from one side to the other to work. The membrane only allows vapour through, not droplets. So, in order to work, the inside of the garment has to be warmer and more moist than the outside. Then the vapour is carried through the vapour permeable layer. The farther that vapour permeable layer is from the source of the moisture the less efficient it becomes. Once you add layers of insulation underneath (between the creator of the vapour and the membrane) it gets even less efficient. If the moisture condenses inside the membrane it stays there. Therefore, insulating under gortex defeats the breathability. What the goretex then becomes is simply a good waterproof material. Ever wonder why goretex was not successful as a tent fabric? Now you know why. The tent is too far from the source of the vapour and the moisture just condenses on the inside of the tent. Ever read about the challenge of making goretex sleeping bags? It would seem to be a perfect marriage but, as many folks have found out, the bag just keeps getting wetter and wetter from the inside as the moisture you give off overnight condenses in the insulation and won't pass through the outside goretex layer. They are very waterproof though. Goretex is a well marketed gimmck. Forget about breathablity. Think of it as very water proof but the breathablity comes from the design of the garment more than the material. That is why pockets and underarm zippers are important. They make it breathable.

Although mountain clothing will do on a boat, there are things about sailing gear that make it better. My sailing coats are designed so that chest harnesses can be worn under the coat and still be clipped into. They are designed so that my life jacket can be attached to the coat and stays there. It has a nauseating green hood with metalic reflectors so that you can see me (visually and on radar) when I fall off the boat. It has a beavertail to keep my groin warm when I fall in. on the other hand, my climbing jacket has pockets that are accessible while I am wearing a pack. It has pit zips for when I am working hard. It has pockets with thin mesh linings so that when I leave them open they help the coat breathe. It has a snow cuff arounb the waist so that blowig snow doesn't go up the bottom. It has a tunnel hood designed to trap a tube of dead air around my face to keep me warm. In short, the coats are different. They are designed to do a different job.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

Plumper said:


> For example, my absolute favourite piece of mountain equipment is my down sweater. It packs down to nothing, weighs a few ounces and is as warm as toast. At the end of the day I slip it on and bask in its warmth. I never take it sailing because it soaks up water like a sponge. On my boat I live in fleece and other bulky things because I have the room to bring them and they are still warm when damp. They also dry very quickly when the chance presents itself.
> 
> Ever wonder why goretex was not successful as a tent fabric? Now you know why. The tent is too far from the source of the vapour and the moisture just condenses on the inside of the tent. Ever read about the challenge of making goretex sleeping bags? It would seem to be a perfect marriage but, as many folks have found out, the bag just keeps getting wetter and wetter from the inside as the moisture you give off overnight condenses in the insulation and won't pass through the outside goretex layer. They are very waterproof though. Goretex is a well marketed gimmck. Forget about breathablity. Think of it as very water proof but the breathablity comes from the design of the garment more than the material. That is why pockets and underarm zippers are important. They make it breathable.
> 
> Although mountain clothing will do on a boat, there are things about sailing gear that make it better. My sailing coats are designed so that chest harnesses can be worn under the coat and still be clipped into. They are designed so that my life jacket can be attached to the coat and stays there. It has a nauseating green hood with metalic reflectors so that you can see me (visually and on radar) when I fall off the boat. It has a beavertail to keep my groin warm when I fall in. on the other hand, my climbing jacket has pockets that are accessible while I am wearing a pack. It has pit zips for when I am working hard. It has pockets with thin mesh linings so that when I leave them open they help the coat breathe. It has a snow cuff arounb the waist so that blowig snow doesn't go up the bottom. It has a tunnel hood designed to trap a tube of dead air around my face to keep me warm. In short, the coats are different. They are designed to do a different job.


*Down Sweater:* Try a Primaloft sweater they are great and I've been using them on my boat for years. L.L. Bean, North Face, Marmot and many more all make iterations of this and they are wonderful warm and considerably more comfortable than fleece in a strictly freedom of movement perspective.

*Gore-Tex tents:* The reason Gore-Tex tents don't work is because Todd Bibler patented the way to actually execute this not W.L. Gore. It involves a layer of moisture trapping fuzz laminated to the PTFE membrane (Gore-Tex is PTFE) which captures the vapor in the air and holds it to the tent wall and then transfers it to the out side through temp and moisture differential. I own both a Bibler tent and a Bibler bivy sack and they work incredibly well and we have far less condensation than in "double walled" tents. Biblers are expensive, at nearly triple the cost of a comparable double wall tent, so the market is very niche. Single wall tents DO work, and I've used mine all over, and have yet to have serious condensation issue. My Fitzroy is now 12 years old, and has some hard miles on it, but is no worse for the wear and still performs just like it did when I purchased it. The perception by most, that shop at REI, LL Bean or EMS, is that single walled tents must not work because they are not sold or seen at these "price point" shops and this is just not true..

*Gore-Tex Sleeping Bags:* - A few builders tried traditional Gore-Tex but after 8" of down insulation there was minimal temp differential to get the final "push" through the membrane so the idea was abandoned. W.L. Gore then came up with Gore DryLoft a highly water resistant membrane that has nearly double the breathability of regualr Gore-Tex. My 800 fill down summit jacket's shell is made with Gore DryLoft and it really works well.. While I've owned a DryLoft sleeping bag I switched back to a DWR microfiber shell for weight savings as the added membrane added a few ounces and stuffability was compromised some.

By the way we rarely hike or climb with a shell on. We have a climbing layer that consists of fleece layers only. We don't care if they get wet when we sweating and warm and our shells and insulating layers stay dry in our packs ready for camp. We usually wear this layer while setting up camp and as we stop sweating, but are still plenty warm, this layer gets about 90% dry it is then hung in the tent over night and ready for the next day of hiking/climbng. Only in severe snow, freezing rain or rain do we actually put on our shells when moving..

Bible Fitzroy Single Wall Tent- Tree line Mt. Washington








Bibler Fitzroy - Fuzzy walls (hard to see but it's there)









*Different designs different jobs:* While marine jackets do have some features alpline jackets don't I have never found these an absolute necessity. I wear my life jacket, with built in harness, and my strobe light with lithium batteries, on the outside of my shell. Don't get me wrong I actually own "marine foulies" but for 90% of my sailing time I find my alpine gear more comfortable and to have a far better functioning hood. I keep both types on my boat and 9 out of 10 times I reach for my alpine jackets and the guests get to wear my marine foulies....


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## Plumper (Nov 21, 2007)

Prima loft sweater - Got one, wear it under my foulies sometimes. Works well except the shoulder straps from my bibs slip on it.

Bibler tents - the fuzz is effectively the inner layer right? It stops drops from forming and dripping on you which would happen if the inside was smooth. Fine tents but too expensive.

Sleeping bags - Gore dryloft. More breathable less waterproof (in their own words). You did go back to a non gore bag!

Climbing without a shell - only in dry weather of course. 

Different designs, different jobs - I guess we can agree to disagree. After about 30,000 ocean miles (on the same jacket, two pairs of bibs), I like my foulies a lot. My alpine stuff is pretty alpine specific. Not very waterproof and too lightly built for my boat. (and the hood would collect water). 20 fourteeners and 10 or so ski seasons it is still holding up well. (I telemark too)

Great discussion. Strong opinions on both sides. This is way easier online than arguing in person because the medium gives one time to build good counterpoints. 

It is sunny and cool here today. I'll be wearing my down sweater for a walk.

Finally, do you ever have a lot of stuff. When is your next garage sale and what size are you?


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

Plumper said:


> Finally, do you ever have a lot of stuff. When is your next garage sale and what size are you?


You haven't seen a tenth of it.. With a few friends that work in the climbing/skiing industry as reps you wind up with lots of good deals, test market/sample gear and all the goodies. I have one to many hobbies & sailing is jut one of many. My buddy Andy will always call me when he stumbles onto a good deal at one of his distributors that how I picked up my Fitzroy and Bibler bivy..

I'm also a tele guy but I still fixed heel from time to time. 9.5 is my shoes size and I actually have a brand new, never worn, pair of classic Asolo Snow field leather back country boots if you're interested in those..

I actually have so much crap I had to build a barn to keep it in and I've been trying to find gear that will work across many hobbies but as you know it does not always work out. I always put my bib straps over my first layer then put a vest or prima sweater over the straps? I've never layered my bib straps over a second or third layer..?? Might help with the slipping or if they have an adjustable X strap, on the back, move the buckle a little more North...


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## Plumper (Nov 21, 2007)

Unfortunately I am a size 13 shoe. Getting gear to fit is always a challenge at 6'6" and 225. 

I like to have my bibs as the outer layer, right under the jacket so everything up to my chest stays dry when I am not wearing the coat. Staying dry is always the issue out here. If I am dry I am warm.


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## frankdrebin (Jan 14, 2008)

I don't know if they would scuff, but I was given a pair of inflatable boots. Rubber and on the heavy side. Mine are black, but I've seen white. They are Government Issue. Toasty warm.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Frank-
"inflatable boots...Government issue". Ah, I think you've made the wrong assumption there. The US military issues "plastic" boots with an "inflation" valve to PARACHUTISTS. But the valve is not for inflation, it is there to allow pressure equalization when the occupant is being flown up to high altitudes--or jumping from the plan and experiencing sudden depressurization, which would make for a rather dramatic change of boot fit.<G>

These are also called "Mickey Mouse" boots, after the big black "boots" seen on Mickey, as opposed to standard leather GI footwear. Been on the surplus market for a long time in black, and Winter White. Dunno how non-skid the Gi Rubber is but that's an interesting idea, they're usually well priced.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I'd also wonder what kind of marks those boots are going to leave on the deck.


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