# CS vs. C&C??



## ChuckBuck (Sep 4, 2011)

Hi everyone,

I sailed a newer (2006) production boat this last weekend. She was a beautiful boat (nice cockpit, open transom, HUGE cabin with all the creature comforts etc). I liked everything except....how she sailed...

Now I'm not going to disclose the name of the builder or the model for fear of offending someone. I'm sure she would make a great boat for some, but for me, it just wasn't my cup of tea!

This got me to thinking that maybe newer is not allways better. I've really enjoyed owning and sailing a 1979 C&C 29 and thought that now that I've sold her, that I wanted something newer and bigger. The more thought I put into it, the more I wonder if maybe I want a few feet bigger but not necessary newer....

Being eager to find my next boat, I've spotted a few interesting older boats that I wanted to get the groups perspective on.

1) 1985 C&C 33
2) 1982 CS 33
3) 1981 C&C 34

I'm looking to cruise & occasionally race on lake Michigan and think all thee would be ideal for my needs. Obviously I'd be giving up all the 'creature comforts' offered by the newer models, but when it comes to sailing, I want something that's going to perform well in all sorts of weather.

Many Thanks in advance!

Cheers!


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

My $.02 CDN.....

The mid 80s C&C 33 is a smallish boat and probably won't seem a lot roomier than your old 29 MKI

The CS 33 is a rugged, proven boat but not all of them have a quarterberth (maybe none? - someone else may know for sure) and so it's primarily a one couple boat.

The C&C 34 is a good, standard layout but there has been some history of core issues with the hulls and is said to be tender.

Of the three, all else being equal, and with infrequent guests planned, I'd probably go with the CS. I think they are a notch up in construction, fit and finish .


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## ChuckBuck (Sep 4, 2011)

Many Thanks for the quick reply.

In looking at the PERFs they are very comparable too. The CS 33 and C&C 33 are at 150base, and the C&C 34 is 144 (although I heard somewhere - probably here - that the C&C 34 is tough to sail to her rating. So all things considered they'd sail similar. And they'd sail slightly faster than my C&C 29 with a 174 base perf.

From what I can gather, the quarter birth is a rare find on the CS, and the one I found does not have one - thats a down side, as I used my quarter birth a lot on the C&C 29 (sometimes people, other times just storage). But I reckon, the upside is you get a TON of storage in the cockpit.

I think more folks use their CS's for cruising vs. racing, and the CS I found looks not to be raced so that could mean less wear and tear and less potential of being raced hard and put away wet - the down side is - I'd need to cough up $$ for sails and a folding prop etc.

I entertain lots (day sails) and am looking for a larger cockpit - do you know if the CS or C&C would provide a larger cockpit?

Thanks again for the insights - I'm sure others will pipe in with a POV as well.

Have a great day!


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Step up a little further to the C&C 35. We have the MKIII model. Her PHRF rating is a true 127 and she is frequently wins our beer can races and does well against larger production boats. The 35 is a rascing class to itself on the Great lakes.

With the 35 you dont give up the creature comforts you are looking for either. We take our up to NE and Long Island every year from the Chesapeake with no problems. She has great headroom, and the V berth is long and comfortable.

Dave


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## rugosa (Aug 30, 2011)

I agree on the C & C 35 being better choice over 33 or 34. Same for CS 36 over CS 33. I worked on CS deck tooling for 33 and 36, moved onto deck assembly for both, then field service. Never built C & C's but commissioned and serviced a bunch over 7 years at their Port Credit service shop. I believe there were 14 CS 33 built with quarter berth/remember the tight squeeze getting in there for service. 'Audente' is for sale in Port Dalhousie, ON for $44,900 listed with Niagara on the Lake Yacht Sales and I've seen for sale private information at Port Dalhousie Marina also, been for sale since 2010.

As for build quality - I found them similar in many ways, and they definitely competed with each other this side of the border. C&C was all about Barient, Yanmar, in-house furniture & upholstry. CS was Lewmar, Buhk (on 33) and Westerbeke (on 36) and perfected quality/subcontract philosophy by manufacturing all glass parts in house and subing most of the rest out - interior furniture, metal work, upholstery - more an assembly shop, and with great quality control. If you like a small amount of exterior brightwork it's C&C, if you prefer none it's CS. CS had their share of blisters too.

Interesting - around '86 there was an owner vs owner dispute about who's boat was faster - C & C Landfall (we called it the Landfill) 38 vs CS 36 (Raymond Wall design). Port Credit to Toronto & back with both boats cleaned up of excess non-essential gear - CS won the day.


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## CBinRI (May 17, 2004)

I would be concerned about the coring issues in a C&C of that vintage. Another option is to go back a few years to a seventies era C&C 35. I am fairly certain they had solid hulls (no core) and from what I have seen, the 35 is extremely competitive in PHRF racing. Once you go back that far in age, you may even save yourself some money. Of course, in shopping in that vintage, you should put some care into finding one where the prior owner has already put some work into it and that you're not going to have to pay twice for it (purchase and updating). 

I don't have any experience with the CS, but I have the impression is that it may not be as good for racing or light winds.


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## sailordave (Jun 26, 2001)

rugosa said:


> I agree on the C & C 35 being better choice over 33 or 34. Same for CS 36 over CS 33. I worked on CS deck tooling for 33 and 36, moved onto deck assembly for both, then field service.


So were your still working there when the Merlin came out? How would you rate them comparatively speaking? And the CS40? (which I race on still doing bow even at my age)


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## rugosa (Aug 30, 2011)

Was hired away in '82 by CS dealer Cow Bay Chandlery, Port Washington, NY, so was not there for any of the Tony Castro designs. I got pretty close to Raymond Wall on those projects and I definitely have a bias towards his designs. Maybe I saw the Castro designs as CS evolving into Catalina/Hunter, maybe I wasn't keeping up with the design evolutions. By the time Merlin and 40 came on line I was primarily commissioning C & C and other, plus working on government small craft projects. Those were fun days. By the way, I'm working the bow out of DYC but do feel the age the next day. It's worth it.

Where are you sailing out of?


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

As a former owner of both marques, I would say the C&Cs (non Landfall) focused more on the racer side of racer/cruiser while the CS more evenly balanced the racer with cruiser. So if one's interests is primarily racing, then C&C is a good direction. If you want to also cruise, or go offshore, then CS would fit better. Obviously either boat makes a great daysailer....

The CS is a stronger boat, and expects and deserves a premium price compared to a C&C. Depending on the intended use and budget, I would happily buy either marque again. the C&C35 Mark II is a very sweet boat, although I am not a fan of the newer C&Cs with cored hulls, in particular I dont feel the 34 or 36 belongs in the same class as the 35 II.


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## rugosa (Aug 30, 2011)

"The CS is a stronger boat, and expects . . ."

In the plant we hung fully finished 27, 33 & 36 on toe rails (5/16" on 4" centres on 36) aft and chainplates to install keel


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## ChuckBuck (Sep 4, 2011)

wow - some great insights - many thanks everyone!

So - it sounds like both a good boats - the CS is a tad more stable, and the C&C is a tad more race inspired.

what about a C&C 35 landfall?

http://www.yachtworld.co.uk/core/li...&access=Public&listing_id=1569&url=&imc=pg-fs

I know I;m all over the map, but hear me out...

She looks like a very comfortable layout, and from reviews she sounds just as 'rock solid' as any C&C...but with a 162 perf, I think I'd need hang up my dreams of long distance racing (Lake MI solo series, Chicago - Mac etc)...

Many Thanks!

CB


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Nice comfy cruiser... looks well kept. She's got a V drive gear, not good or bad really, but does complicate access to the stuffing box seal - hope she's got a dripless seal already.

Is this still in your budget?

If you intend to invite frequent guest couples this kind of layout is not ideal as you don't really have two 'doubles' without converting the dinette.. but for two it's pretty nice. This boat probably has a reasonably comfortable fwd V berth.

Cored hull? Probably... so watch for issues there.

Oh.. and a bit of a trucking bill on top! Here's another closer to home, maybe?

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...3/Portsmouth/RI/United-States&boat_id=1666663


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## gypsywindz.sailing (May 13, 2015)

DFoes anyone on here know how much headroom the CS 33 has??


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