# Boat Inspection Trip Tips



## sailingdog

After reading a bit about what people think is or isn't necessary when going to look at a boat... I decided to put together this thread. *

Please note*: _This thread is about going to visit a boat to see if it is worth looking at further. *It is not designed to replace a proper survey and sea trial*. This type of trip is what you should do to see if it is worth making an offer on a boat and spending the money on a survey and sea trial. IMHO, you really need to have a survey done by a competent surveyor. YMMV. _

When you're going to look at a boat, as a possible future purchase, I would make some recommendations about what you should and shouldn't do. I would ask that anyone else chime in with recommendations they have as well. I'll edit this post to add the ones I think are most important. 

*Basic Inspection Kit*

First, put together a kit of tools for your boat visit. The kit should include the following:
*Small Notebook*-reporters notebooks or pocket-sized Moleskines are excellent choices for this.
*Pencil*-preferably .5mm mechanical for making notes and sketches in notebook
*Small tape recorder*-preferably with a lapel mic with windscreen, to record your visit to the boat, as it is often easier to make notes by speaking than writing when looking at a boat
*Digital camera*-I prefer the small pocket sized Olympus Stylus SW series, as they are waterproof, shock proof and have a decent lens on them
*Tape Measure*-Preferably a 25-30' tape
*Small Flashlight*-Preferably LED, like the Gerber Omnivore or Firecracker
*Pocket Multitool*-Get a good one, like the Leatherman Surge
*Phenolic Resin Hammer*-a small one will do
*Small Magnet*-preferably one with a lanyard attachment
*Inspection Mirror*-preferably one with a telescoping handle
*Small Volt-Ohm multimeter*-preferably digital with a rubber casing
*Moisture Meter*-see section below
*Additional Supplies:*
*Clean White Rags*
*Awl*
*Waterless Hand Cleaner Wipes*
*Spray Cleaner *(like Fantastic)
*Burgundy Scotch Brite Pad*
*The Trip*

*First Impressions*

Now, when you get to the boat, take some photos of the boat as you approach it... Turn on the tape recorder and speak clearly about your first impressions of the boat. Make sure you get your first impressions down. _The human brain is a weird thing and often the first impressions are the best ones... and there's usually a reason for them. _

Systematically go through the boat from bow to stern, from top to bottom, recording what you find either on the *tape recorder* or as sketches and notes in the *notebook*, and document everything with photos using the *digital camera *if at all possible. If you have specific requirements, use the tape measure to take measurements.

Don't forget to note the make and model of the various equipment and parts aboard the boat. Some pieces of equipment, like specific models of engines and such have known weaknesses and specific problems to be aware of.

The *magnet* is to be used to check stainless steel hardware. If the magnet sticks, it ain't marine grade stainless. _Austenitic stainless, which covers most marine grade stainless steel, is non-magnetic and includes 304 and 316 grades of stainless. _The cheaper martensitic stainless is magnetic.

The *flashlight* and *inspection mirror* are used to look in nooks, crannies, deep unlit lockers, the bilge, engine compartment, etc. Looking in lockers and such can often tell you a lot about a boat's true condition, since many people will spruce up and clean the interior of a boat for sale, but will often forget to do the same for the less visible spaces. _A good example of what you may find is traces of a visible waterline in the higher lockers may indicate that the boat was sunk at some point. _

Tapping the deck with the *phenolic hammer* near stanchion bases may give you an indication if the deck has started to delaminate or has a wet core. _Most boats have a cored deck and stanchions are often places where the water intrusion can start due to the loads that they're often subjected to. _*Caution:* If you are not skilled with a phenolic hammer please DO NOT go pounding on an Awlgriped deck!!* They are used for TAPPING not pounding.
*
Most manufacturers do not do a very good job of potting the fasteners or deck area around the stanchions or other deck hardware, especially on older boats, made when the water intrusion problems weren't well understood.

Look for cracks in the gelcoat-most spider cracks are normal and often due to the gelcoat being laid too thickly. Parallel cracks in the gelcoat, which often indicates stressing of the fiberglass there. Star-shaped cracks in the gelcoat are usually the result of an impact.

Look for flat spots in the hull or places where the hull doesn't follow a natural curve. These can often be indicators of previous damage or bad construction. Often, places where the hull isn't following a fair curve are due to bulkheads being improperly glassed to the hull and causing a hard spot-which can cause the laminate to hinge along the hard spot and results in the laminate fatiguing prematurely there.

Check mechanical systems to see if the parts that should move do, and that the parts that shouldn't move don't.  If something sticks, like the tiller, and shouldn't-it is probably an indicator of something wrong or about to go wrong. Excessive play is often an indicator of wear and that something may need to be repaired or replaced soon. If a cabin door or cabinet door doesn't open or close smoothly, it may mean the hull and deck have changed shape and causing it to bind-this can often happen if a compression post has started to weaken.

The *multimeter* can be used to do some quick checks on the electrical system. If you don't know how to use one, take a class at a local vocational/technical school and learn-you need to know how to trouble shoot electrical problems using one if you're going to own a boat.

Go through the boat and open every locker if at all possible. Lift settee cushions. Look in the bilge. Photograph the rig. Get detailed photos of the chainplates, the rudder attachment points, the steering quadrant and other important pieces of equipment.

As for the *pocket multitool*... you'll figure out why I included it in the kit... they're just too damn useful not to have one around. I carry the Leatherman Surge with me almost 24/7, except when I know I'm going through airport or federal building security. _The blades on it are just about long enough to qualify as a felony if carried in a federal facility.  _

*Going Aloft*

I generally won't go aloft on a boat that I'm a complete stranger to, unless the rig is vouched for by someone I know and trust.







*Also, I doubt most owners would let you go up the rig given the liability issues if the rig should fail and you get injured. *Finally, many boats are on the hard when up for sale, and_* going aloft on the hard is a really, really bad idea IMHO. *_

That is why I recommend taking photos of the rig from the ground. The amount of detail you can pull off of a 8-10 MP image nowadays is astounding, even if the camera only has a fairly short focal length lens.

*Moisture Meters*

If you are in the market for a 10k+ vessel do yourself a favor and invest in a moisture meter. It will pay for its self the first time you use it and rule out a boat!!

Surveys run $600+ clams, moisture meters are $169 clams. If you found a boat you really loved but the surveyor came out and found moisture your out $600 if you do your own "checking" you can rule out many boats safely without a survey and with each boat you rule out die to sever moisture the meter costs less and less until it's free! When you are done simply sell it here on Sailnet to another member or keep it which is what I'd suggest!

Please do NOT listen to the neigh Sayers like David Pascoe on this subject. He is a surveyor who DOES NOT want you to own a meter. He uses scare tactics and discuses how "difficult" it is to use one. That is complete BUNK! Using a meter, to a level where you can rule out a boat with severely wet decks, takes about a half hour to learn! More accurate and detailed use takes more time but that is not what you are after in this stage.

Trust me he and his cohorts WANT to survey three or four boats for you before you find one to buy. My buddy Eric surveyed five boats before finding one in salable condition. He spent over 2k in surveys. He could have ruled at least four of these boats out, if not all five, with about a half hours worth of reading and a $300 meter saving $1700.00....

I use an Electrophysics CT33 moisture meter. This is basically the SAME EXACT meter as the $325.00 J.R. Overseas GRP33. The only difference I know of are the graphics on the analog display. As long as you don't mind ordering from a Canadian company you can save HUGE money. The current price for the CT33 is $169.00 plus shipping from Canada. Oh and don't forget to order the calibration block @ $10.00..

So $169.00 - CT33 Moisture Meter
$10.00 - Calibration block
$9.00 - US Shipping 
*Total $188.00 Delivered
* 
$169.00









Electrophysics CT33 Moisture Meter Ordering Informationn (LINK)

If you want fancier analog graphics $325.00:









As Maine Sail says: "_when you DIY the tools are FREE!! There is NO excuse for anyone investing more than 10K in a new boat to NOT own a moisture meter.._" I agree with him. Owning the right tools makes almost everything you do easier.  BTW, his article on the CT-33 is located *HERE*.
*
 Specific Inspection Areas:

#1 Sails & Canvas* - If the sails are on board find the UV cover or luff end of the head sail and scratch the threads with your fingernail. If they fail or break the sails need at a minimum re-stitching. If you can find the head board of the main sail,it sees lots of UV as it's not folded into the sail when flaked do the same here. Do the same for any canvas..

*#2* *Driveline* - On inboard powered boats grab the prop and wiggle it back and forth up and down. If there is any play the cutlass bearing is mostly shot and will need replacement.

*#3* *Driveline* - Inspect the strut, prop shaft (if bronze) and prop for any signs of dezinctification. This will appear as areas of discoloration more pinkish or coppery in color as opposed to the gold hue of bronze. A Scotchbrite pad is a good thing to add to the inspection kit as it will allow you to get down to bare bronze.

*#4 Rudder* -Grab the rudder and move it from side to side and fore and aft. If there is significant play the bearings or bushings may be past prime.

*#5 Rudder* - Move the rudder by hand from full port to full starboard. If you feel any difference in resistance it could be a bent shaft or steering gear issues.
*
#6 Steering* - Inspect the entire steering gear assembly and look for excess play or "meat hooks" on the steering cable. Make sure the wheel brake works. A broken wheel brake, or one that does not have adequate locking to prevent you from turning the rudder by hand, means the rudder was allowed to move freely at the dock or mooring. This is BAD and adds to unnecessary premature wear and tear on the entire steering system.
*
#7 Steering* - Inspect the rudder stuffing box. You are looking for signs of drips or leaks. they will usually run from the top of the rudder packing gland down and will be green in color if it has a bronze rudder packing gland.

*#8 Rudder* - Look for any rust colored drips emanating from the rudder. This is a good sign of water intrusion.

*#9 Keel* - Look for any signs of water seepage or discoloration stains along the keel to hull joint. Leaking keel joints lead to crevice corrosion of the keel bolts and can be a bad situation.

*#10 Keel* - Look in the bilge for any signs of un-sealed screw holes, possibly left over from a float switch or bilge pump, with brownish rust stains around them. This could mean the boat has a plywood laminated keel stub that has been moisture saturated. If the stub has wood and it's wet the keel bolts will likely be suffering from a good deal of crevice corosion.

*#11 Keel* - Look at the keel bolts and make sure they are no circular stress cracks emanating outward from the backing plates. This is another sign of a rotting and compressing keel stub. Solid fiberglass does not compress enough to create circular stress cracks.

*#12 Bulkheads* - Using a Awl (please be courteous and do this in an inconspicuous area that can not be seen) poke the areas around the chain plates lightly. If the wood is rotten the Awl will sink in. Do the same around the bottoms of the bulkheads where they meet the bilge.

*#13 Glassed in Bulkheads* - Inspect all tabbing and make sure NONE of it is peeling or broken free from either the hull or the bulkheads. Do your best to look at the entire mating surface and this will usually require the flashlight and inspection mirror. If you notice any discoloration of the wood lightly poke at it with the Awl. Look for any signs of the teak veneer bubbling or lifting. This is always a red flag for moisture in the bulkheads.

*#14 Screwed in Bulkheads* - Many production boats used bulkheads that are screwed in place. Make sure the screws are entering at a 90 degree angle to the wood. Screw heads that are cocked or off the 90 degree angle, and if there are more than just the occasional one, are a good indication the bulkhead has been over stressed and has moved. Awl same as above and PLEASE be polite about your use of the Awl!

*#15 Deck (Under-side)* - Do your best to remove anything that will get you to the backing plates of deck hardware. Please do not dismantle the boat! This is only for areas of easy access. If you can unzip a headliner for example, and the zipper does not stick, visually inspect deck penetrations for any signs of "coffee drips". Any brownish drips or brownish colored stains dripping from through-bolted hardware or any holes on the underside of the deck are signs of a seriously deteriorating rotting deck. If you see "coffee drips" in more than one location walk away and find another boat..

*#16 Seacocks* - Visually inspect the "balls" from outside with a flashlight and look for any signs of corrosion. If they have handles that turn like your hose spigot at home know that they will need to be replaced because they are gate valves. Real seacocks should have handles that turn only vertically to be in-line with the valve and horizontally to be in-line with the hull only. Turn the handles and visually make sure the balls are opening and closing from outside the boat and make sure they turn freely.

*#17 Seacocks* - Check for a UL Marine rated listing and dezinctifacation (coppery pinkish coloring)

*#18 Seacock Backing Blocks* - Poke these with the Awl. If they are soft they are wet and will need replacement. The Awl should not "sink in" under light pressure.

*#19 Hoses* - Visually inspect hoses, including exhaust hoses, for any signs of dry rot, cracking or reinforcement wire bleed or break through. If you see rust spots mid hose this is a good sign that the reinforcing wire is rusting inside the hose. Check for double hose clamps at all bellow water fittings. Also check to make sure there is no clear, un-reinforced hose that leads to any through hull fitting.

*#20 Seacocks* - Check for a UL Marine rated listing and dezinctifacation (coppery pinkish coloring).

*#21 Engine* - Check the oil and make sure it was recently changed and that it is clean and not black. An owner that puts a boat away, or lists one for sale, with dirty oil, is also an owner that does not maintain the vessel to a good standard!
*
#22 Engine* - If you've checked everything else, and are a VERY SERIOUS BUYER, remove the engine/heat exchanger zinc and make sure there actually is one and that it is in good condition. DO NOT do this with the boat in the water and the seacock open and do not do this if you are tire kicking this vessel. Ideally this should be left to the surveyor but most don't do this!

*#23 Engine* - Using a clean white rag run it under the engine any where you can reach. If you find a drip record it in the notebook and jot down it's location. Turn the rag to a clean spot and continue. Many owners will spot clean an engine to hide oil leaks. The rag trick usually finds them.

*#24 Engine* - Wiggle the engine and visually inspect the motor mounts for dry rot or oil degradation. make sure the motor mounts are still working and not cracked.

*#25 Engine / Fuel* - If the boat is equipped with a fuel/water separator device such as a Racor. Use an empty Coke bottle to crack the pet **** and drain off just a touch of fuel. If it is laden with sediment or all you get is water this is a bad sign. Do NOT drain the entire bowl just a quick crack of this pet **** will show you what you need to know and won;t require the owner re-bleeding the engine. Be polite and clean up ANY fuel drip with the spray cleaner you brought. Even ONE drop is being impolite and rude diesel stinks!!!

*#26 Winches* - Rotate the winches and make sure they rotate freely and smoothly. Wiggle them side to side, especially if they are aluminum. There should be NO play in the drum. Any play in an aluminum winch is a good sign that the bearing mating surfaces are worn or corroded due to dissimilar metals corrosion. DO NOT overlook this, winches are big $$$$$$$!

*#27 Blocks Sheaves* - Make sure all blocks and sheaves rotate freely and are not frozen.

*#28 Running Rigging* - Look for any signs of chafe and wear especially halyards. Scratch the surface of the lines jacket with your fingernail and if threads give way or break it is time for new running rigging. 
*
#29 Portlights* - Look for any visibly signs of leaking.

*#30 Lifelines* - Look for rust / corrosion at the fittings and between the white jacket of the wire and the swaged fitting.

*Warning Signs:
*
_*If the boat owner doesn't want/allow you to do this... it may be that they are hiding something. *_ A boat owner who is proud of how well kept and maintained his boat is should have no problem allowing you fairly complete access to the boat and its systems.

* Walk the Docks*

Once you've gone over the boat with a fine tooth comb... walk the docks and talk to the other marina residents. They can often give you a lot of information about the boat.
Was it used regularly or was it a dock queen?
Did the owner come out to check the lines and fenders before and after a storm?
Did the owner have regular maintenance done to the boat?
How long has it been for sale?
*All this stuff can often be discovered just by being friendly and talking to other people at the boat's marina.*​
*When you get home*

Put everything aside for a day...and then come back and look at it... this gives your subconscious mind a chance to process what you've seen and things that you may have not realized on the initial trip may jump out at you.

_If you get a hunch about some equipment or part on the boat, look at your photos and notes about them and see if you can figure out what your subconscious is trying to tell you. 
_
Don't forget to do a bit of research on the various pieces of equipment you saw on the boat to find what specific problems are common to them.

*What to do next:*

If you really like what you saw and didn't come across any glaring warning signs, it is probably time to make the offer. *When you make your offer, ask for maintenance records, and make the offer subject to survey and sea trial. *

Remember, if you're married or have a significant other... *GET THEIR INPUT.* If you don't, you probably will regret it in the long run. 

I hope this helps.


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## Zanshin

Nice post!


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## sailingdog

thanks Zanshin.  I hope it helps some of the people that have are looking to buy their first boat....especially if they're buying used.


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## Zanshin

I'm buying my 2nd used boat and the first time around I restricted myself to opening things up and taking pictures (lots and lots of them) - then writing down notes once I left the boat. That wasn't good enough, so I will take a more structured approach and start off with your system. Would you bring your own bosun's chair or climbing rig and go aloft?


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## sailingdog

I generally won't go aloft on a boat that I'm a complete stranger to, unless the rig is vouched for by someone I know and trust.  *Also, I doubt most owners would let you go up the rig given the liability issues if the rig should fail and you get injured. *Finally, many boats are on the hard when up for sale, and_* going aloft on the hard is a really, really bad idea IMHO. *_

That is why I recommend taking photos of the rig from the ground. The amount of detail you can pull off of a 8-10 MP image nowadays is astounding, even if the camera only has a fairly short focal length lens.


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## Giulietta

*Hey..Get Smart....you forgot something..*

....adding to SD's anti-KAOS spy Gadgets for the "prepared boat buyer"...I would add..














































You don't want to be caught out there un-prepared do you??

you're welcome SD...


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## sailingdog

Here I thought I was dealing with a smart portagee, and in reality Gui's a SMART-ASS portagee.


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## AlanBrown

Excellent suggestions!

One thing I would key in on with the owner/broker is the boat's maintenance history. I'd want to know what had been serviced or replaced and when. I would not be shy about asking for repair receipts.

For example, I had all my standing rigging and chain plates replaced on my Hunter 30 in 2002. Should you just take my word on this, or should you verify my claim? Most owners would save these receipts. One of the reasons I decided to purchase my current boat was the fact the the engine had be recently overhauled and the owner showed me the repair receipts.


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## Freesail99

It is really a very helpful post, nice job dog.


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## Allanbc

I carry a clipboard with a checklist and the other items mentioned.


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## Cruisingdad

Good post SD - especially good idea on the magnet. I never thought of that.

- CD


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## Valiente

This thread should be a sticky under the heading "PUT A SURVEYOR OUT OF WORK".

Still, good advice.


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## cardiacpaul

thanks, now I gotta go to my back-up career...

porn star.


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## Maine Sail

Valiente said:


> This thread should be a sticky under the heading "PUT A SURVEYOR OUT OF WORK".
> 
> Still, good advice.


Unfortunately most insurance companies require surveys from NAMS or SAMS accredited surveyors. I can obviously do my own, have worked with a close friend for years who is a very good surveyor, but I am not acredited by NAMS or SAMS so I still pay for them.

there is however absolutely NO need to be surprised by what a surveyor finds. You can also work out a cheaper deal to do an "insurance only" safetya and value survey if you are comfortable in what you've seen and inspected.


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## Valiente

I would never forgo a surveyor, because I'm not a full-time one either, not to mention that insurers generally want proof of competence in the form of accreditation.

But as you say, if you do the "preface", you put the whole story in context or simply save a lot of time by identifying "deal breakers" early.

I drove 200 miles to see a boat once that it took 30 seconds to see had been T-boned and partially flooded. That was the last time I assumed a broker was anything but a lying whore.

I have since found a couple of _truthful_ whore brokers, mind you...


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## fullkeel7

Man, I love this site! It always amazes me the amount of great info and entertainment on SailNet. Very nice posts SD and MS. Giu and Val....you guys are just sick....TWO times .. in one thread, I've choked on my own spit!  That's three times today! Must be some sort of Sailnet record!..for me.... LMAO....Bob


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## chucklesR

I'd add hire a qualified surveyor at the end of the list, because basically, a buyers opinion doesn't matter and the insurance company will want a survey anyway.


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## T34C

Great post/thread. I'm sure many new buyers will find this very helful. A couple of issues that I think are worth touching on:

*Was it used regularly or was it a dock queen?* Not indicative of much of anything. A "dock queen" may be in more original condition and lightly used, but a regularly used boat that is well cared for may be better. I'd rather have one that has been used and all problems identified and fixed.

*Did the owner have regular maintenance done to the boat?* Owner may have done the maintenance themself. Just because someone paid for work to be done doesn't mean it was done right.

*How long has it been for sale?*
In this market you can't tell anything by this. The boat may have been over priced for a year before it was reduced. May have been listed with a bad broker, etc...

*If a cabin door or cabinet door doesn't open or close smoothly, it may mean the hull and deck have changed shape and causing it to bind-this can often happen if a compression post has started to weaken.*
Or, it could be that the wood has expanded from 20+ years in a marine environment, etc...

Keep in mind that older boats especially are going to have problems. None are perfect. Some problems are bigger than others and some problems are big to one owner and not important to the next. It is good to identify problems and potential problems, but most all of them are repairable if you're willing to spend a few $$ and a few hours.


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## Giulietta

fullkeel7 said:


> *MS. * Giu


Are you sure you want to go down that road..boy???


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## T34C

BTW- My insurance company didn't require a survey, or CG documentation, and is quite affordable.


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## Maine Sail

T34C said:


> BTW- My insurance company didn't require a survey, or CG documentation, and is quite affordable.


What company and is it just liability or do you have a agreed value hull policy??


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## fullkeel7

Giulietta said:


> Are you sure you want to go down that road..boy???


AAAAA....maybe not...probably would get a little bumpy!


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## T34C

Maine Sail said:


> What company and is it just liability or do you have a agreed value hull policy??


I have an agreed value policy (it's and old boat) thru USAA.


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## Giulietta

you guys with your surveyors are soo funny...

we here have none of that, really we don't....if you're dumb enough to get fooled by someone selling you a boat..your problem...most people that buy a sailboat, know minimally what they need to know to see if it's good or not...if they can't there is allways a friend that helps


here anyone buying a boat does their own "survey"..none of that stuff here...

Looks like stuff to protect you from you, by not having you do what you should do.....makes sense???

Imagine if to get my boat insured I neded to get a surveyor...ahaha that's funny...you guys are soo lazy...even need to hire a guy to look at a bota for you...


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## tommays

Boat US did not require a survey on my J24 only good photos that showed the boat 

And older J24 can be a real nightmare of core problems and for example if you look at one that has been frozen all winter things will seem to fine till it thaws out and the core turns back to mush 


I think a survey is a good thing if you dont know were the warts are on boat brand X and does give a more objective look at the boat 


The one thing i have nevr liked is that the survey person has nothing to lose if he misses something


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## Maine Sail

T34C said:


> I have an agreed value policy (it's and old boat) thru USAA.


Yep you must be under their window or had it prior to their changes in yacht Policies..

I too have USAA for everything except for my boat. They will not insure bigger more expensive boats anymore. Mine is insured for 70k agreed and they won't touch it.. I keep asking!! I'm currently with Amica..


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## jrd22

Great post SD, wish my son had it two weeks ago when he bought his first boat. Fortunately he found a great surveyor (Eberle?) in NC. I vote for this to be a sticky in Buying a Boat (do I get a vote here?).

John


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## mccary

*Very nice !!*



sailingdog said:


> After reading a bit about what people think is or isn't necessary when going to look at a boat... I decided to put together this thread.


This is a wonderful set of tips. I am not in tghe market for a boat but have copied and saved this for future use. Maybe one day I will be looking and this might be handy.


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## sailingdog

A couple of points... 

I didn't mention asking about the service receipts or getting an official survey done, since those are the steps after you decide you want the boat. This tip is pretty much written to deal with everything up to the point where you decide to push ahead and make an offer or not.  

Yes, IMHO, you really need to get a survey. However, if you've done this part right, you should have at least a pretty good idea of what to expect on the survey.


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## knothead

Giulietta said:


> you guys with your surveyors are soo funny...
> 
> we here have none of that, really we don't....if you're dumb enough to get fooled by someone selling you a boat..your problem...most people that buy a sailboat, know minimally what they need to know to see if it's good or not...if they can't there is allways a friend that helps
> 
> here anyone buying a boat does their own "survey"..none of that stuff here...
> 
> Looks like stuff to protect you from you, by not having you do what you should do.....makes sense???
> 
> Imagine if to get my boat insured I neded to get a surveyor...ahaha that's funny...you guys are soo lazy...even need to hire a guy to look at a bota for you...


SD, Good info in your post as well as some of the follow-ups from others.

Giu, I actually agree with you to a point. 
It wasn't too many years ago that sailors, at least the ones I knew, were in general a lot more competent and self sufficient than the average boater today. At least that's my observation.

There are probably a lot of very different reasons for this. Among them would be the development of the GPS system or the fact that there is a glut of cheap used small vessels. 
Also, I think that insurance has help to make it easier for people to neglect their personal responsibility.
I see cases often where someone expects the insurance to pay for a new rig when the cause of failure was a 20+ year old chainplate or U-bolt that caused the dismasting. Even people that are in the marine industry, used their boat hard, should have known better and should have inspected and replaced the offending parts.

Anyway, there are a lot more people on the water these days and there is nothing necessarily wrong with that. Hell, it drives an industry. A lot of people make their livings based partly on the fact that anyone can just go buy a boat and go sailing in relative comfort and safety without having to go to the trouble of becoming sailors.

Boy, when I read that, it sounds harsh. I don't really mean it that way.

Sailing, Cruising, Boating, Yachting, whatever you want to call it, is a lot more obtainable than it used to be. 
Technology has made learning how to do real navigation unnecessary. There are so many incredible products and services out there we don't really have to do much ourselves anymore.
EPIRBs and the Coast Guard are a pretty good backup plan if you stay close to shore, right? 

I applaud SD's efforts to get people to stick their heads into those lockers and wiggle those shafts and to climb that rigging and knock on their hulls with little plastic hammers. And I would venture to guess that many of the participants here at Sailnet are pretty handy. But I fear that in general, the vast majority of boaters in the US would have a real hard time performing tasks that a boater 30 years ago would have considered basic.


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## sailingdog

Knotty-

True, many are far less skilled than those who were boating several decades ago... but if we hope for the masses to return to a shadow of those skilled sailors, we need to start someplace.


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## artbyjody

Speaking of surveys and to add to the list.

If a boat is interesting enough to you to do all this work, in advance of coming to the boat to begin with - have the owner's last survey sent to you. It can be used as a checklist - and furthermore you can use it with your surveyor (if boat passes your inspection) to verify that previous issues have been addressed. It'll also demonstrate the level of care the PO had with the boat.


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## edstill

Damm! I wish I had read all this 12 hours and 500 miles ago! A saw a winner today, and am making an offer in the morning, but all this would have helped a lot. HALF of this would have helped a lot!

Still, I did giver her a very good looking over - to the best of my ability, and of course the offer will be survey contingent.


----------



## denby

Very good thread Dawg, I'll refer to this thread next time I'm in the market for a boat and it will be helpful in keeping up my boat. 

But do you ever sleep or work? you posted this at 4am and have been on line all day.


----------



## T37SOLARE

Maine Sail said:


> Yep you must be under their window or had it prior to their changes in yacht Policies..
> 
> I too have USAA for everything except for my boat. They will not insure bigger more expensive boats anymore. Mine is insured for 70k agreed and they won't touch it.. I keep asking!! I'm currently with Amica..


My coverage is through USAA, they are now selling Markels "Helmsman Yacht Insurance" on the larger vessels they had stopped covering in-house. My cost from USAA/Markel was 1/3 of what Boat US quoted and is an agreed value policy with twice the liability the Boat US was offering.


----------



## Maine Sail

T37SOLARE said:


> My coverage is through USAA, they are now selling Markels "Helmsman Yacht Insurance" on the larger vessels they had stopped covering in-house. My cost from USAA/Markel was 1/3 of what Boat US quoted and is an agreed value policy with twice the liability the Boat US was offering.


I'll call them tomorrow! I bought two years ago and at the time they were not taking any more yacht policies for bigger boats! Amica is EXPEN$IVE..

Thanks for the heads up!


----------



## cardiacpaul

I'm going to make a generalized no, I'm not looking for business from anybody statement. 
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/buying-boat/39218-special-interest-declaration-2.html#post237459

All of the above are VERY good policies and procedures. 
If EVERYONE that was looking at a hole in the water to throw money into followed the advise above, the world would be a better place and we'd have pretty sunsets too.

Alas, 
Thats not the case. 
I find MANY potential owners of both sail and powerboats looking at some real junk. Unsafe, unseaworthy POS's that had they followed even some of the advise posted above, they would have never laid out cash, or in some cases, "broke the dream".

I'm finding people have purchased, without survey in one case, a 30 ft SeaRay that had the motor mount stringers coming apart in my hand.

Another party bought a 38ft Trojan where the hull/deck joint was repaired with automotive bondo. (about a 6 foot chunk) They paid top dollar too... Why? as per the new owner "its a Trojan!"

I see horror stories as I come in after the fact for an insurance survey, where there is a lot of "pressure" (pffft, like that matters to me) to "write it nice". 
Needless to say, that doesn't happen. Not with me. 
And, its getting worse, not better. The economy is forcing SOME people to to put the boat up for sale, most times after sitting idle for some time, as we all know its the deathnell of any watercraft.


----------



## CalebD

Not to answer the Portagee's question but the reason there are Marine Surveyors in this country is for a number of reasons. #1 is such that the first time keel boat buyer will have an approximate idea of what is wrong with the boat they love but happens to be in a bad state. Many first time buyers do not even know that the boat they want to love has a stuffing box or a cooling water impeller on their engine much less what function a chain plate plays in keeping a rig aloft. #2 is to protect insurers from perhaps well intended people from buying non-seaworthy craft that will fall apart on them since they did not check out everything on the boat (CP's examples illustrate this). #3 is to keep people like SD and Mainesail in line so that even if they are not actually Marine Surveyors the boats they insure are deemed really seaworthy by someone else.
That said, a first time buyer could find themselves scratching their heads at this thread and asking themselves what a 'multimeter' or moisture detector is. This tread is a good attempt to alert folks as to the depth of discovery one should take when buying a boat. 
The same rules apply when buying a boat as a house or home: caveat emptor, or buyer beware. The more knowledgeable the buyer, the better of they are; like second or third etc. boat owners. For first time buyers there are a whole lot of pitfalls they can stumble into and the insurance industry knows this and supports the idea of Marine Surveyors.


----------



## sailingdog

I do sleep, just not a whole lot.  I do work, and wish I had been on-line all day. I was actually snaking out a clogged sewer line for a friend... UGH... next time I have to do that, I'll trade ya...  It's almost as bad as working on the head on a boat.

*BTW, updated the OP in this thread... *


denby said:


> Very good thread Dawg, I'll refer to this thread next time I'm in the market for a boat and it will be helpful in keeping up my boat.
> 
> But do you ever sleep or work? you posted this at 4am and have been on line all day.


----------



## xort

Maine Sail said:


> I'll call them tomorrow! I bought two years ago and at the time they were not taking any more yacht policies for bigger boats! Amica is EXPEN$IVE..


Post your results please!


----------



## thesnort

A most excellent post! A list of 'problems' categorized as 'dealbreakers', 'major concerns', 'minor concerns' would make this complete.
Who's up for it?


----------



## sailingdog

I don't know if that is possible, since what one person may consider a dealbreaker might be just a good reason to knock down the price for another person.


thesnort said:


> A most excellent post! A list of 'problems' categorized as 'dealbreakers', 'major concerns', 'minor concerns' would make this complete.
> Who's up for it?


----------



## N0NJY

Very good set of instructions there.

Wife and I went through this recently - and some of these things didn't apply exactly but the majority did. I actually did some reading on this very subject before even looking at boats.

Worked out good and I think this post has ALL the high points plus some.

(Note: I've used a moisture meter to check wood for other things... didn't think about it on a boat! Seems pretty logical now.)


----------



## TxLnghrn

For me with my limited time, limited funds and limited boat knowledge....
Dealbreakers: 
Any delamination  (for that matter it would be a dealbreaker for me with unlimited time.....just not worth it). 
Problems with spars. 
Non-functioning engine.

Major concerns: 
standing rigging issues, 
engine issues (assuming usable but needing more than routine maintanence).
osmotic blisters ( I understand this is a form of delamination, but minor issues that I feel could be solved on next haulout wouldn't be a dealbreaker)
Unusable sails
Unsafe electrical systems 

Minor concerns:
What makes me think I can afford this or any boat  
Okay pretty much everything else, running rigging, cosmetic blisters, canvas condition...etc...

BTW Dawg, Thanks for starting this post, great info,
Michael


----------



## therapy23

Sailingdog,

On that moisture meter.........are there directions for use on fiberglass?

Do you just touch the fiberglass or do you have to make a hole to reach underneath to the material (core) you are actually measuring?

I know nothing of using a moisture meter obviously but would follow your advice when I am able to begin looking seriously.

Thanks.

edit

Never mind.......I went to the site and read a little. 
Will ask for a short course when I buy one.


----------



## sailingdog

Therapy-

The whole reason for using a moisture meter is so you don't have to drill holes in the deck... It is a NON-DESTRUCTIVE TESTING TOOL. So, no holes.


----------



## therapy23

sailingdog said:


> Therapy-
> 
> The whole reason for using a moisture meter is so you don't have to drill holes in the deck... It is a NON-DESTRUCTIVE TESTING TOOL. So, no holes.


Thanks.

I think you posted while I was reading and then edited.


----------



## davidpm

What things do you check during a sea trial?

Off the top of my head:
Winches work smoothly
Engine does not overheat after running hard.
Gages all work?

What else to you have?


----------



## therapy23

davidpm said:


> What things do you check during a sea trial?
> 
> Off the top of my head:
> Winches work smoothly
> Engine does not overheat after running hard.
> Gages all work?
> 
> What else to you have?


I would want to use the head(s).


----------



## captbillc

i have mentioned this in other threads. as a retired diesel mechanic, one of the first things i do is take off the oil filler cap. if it has water dripping from it the engine has water in the crankcase. this is because water evaporates and then condenses in the valve covers. it will show up here even if there is not enough to look milky on the dipstick. other things to look for have been posted on other threads at sailnet. i don't remember which ones , but perhaps cam can help out on this.


----------



## sailingdog

Bill—

Good tip on the oil filler cap.


----------



## davidpm

captbillc said:


> i have mentioned this in other threads. as a retired diesel mechanic, one of the first things i do is take off the oil filler cap. if it has water dripping from it the engine has water in the crankcase. this is because water evaporates and then condenses in the valve covers. it will show up here even if there is not enough to look milky on the dipstick. other things to look for have been posted on other threads at sailnet. i don't remember which ones , but perhaps cam can help out on this.


What does water in the crankcase mean in dollars? Cracked head, bad gasket or either. 
One is more expensive than the other. Can you tell?


----------



## tpohara

Excellent thread SD and others... I'm just starting to look and am saving this thread's pointers to give me a better chance to make the experiece better. Sounds like the stuff folks tried to teach me years ago when I sailed as a teenager...


----------



## sailingdog

Glad to help... if you haven't read it yet, I'd highly recommend you read the *POST* in my signature to help you get the most out of your time here. It has tips on searching sailnet, writing a good post, etc..

Welcome to the asylum.



tpohara said:


> Excellent thread SD and others... I'm just starting to look and am saving this thread's pointers to give me a better chance to make the experiece better. Sounds like the stuff folks tried to teach me years ago when I sailed as a teenager...


----------



## tpohara

*yup...*

SD:

yup, figured out pretty quick that you were one of the hands here and already followed that link. I do appreciate the time you take to answer folks, even the long land bound like me. Slainte!


----------



## heron2387

*no boat is a perfect boat*

what boat doesnt have keel issues, deck issues, mechanical issues, rigging issues? Buy the damn thing if it will float. Or buy new, never been in the water and discover them for yourself. If it's a well founded boat go sailing and have fun.


----------



## sailingdog

While no boat is perfect, there's no point in looking at a boat that has serious issues. This thread is all about how to figure out if the boat you're looking at is a POS or worth investigating further. It applies to some degree to even new boats IMHO, since even new boats can have some serious issues...


heron2387 said:


> what boat doesnt have keel issues, deck issues, mechanical issues, rigging issues? Buy the damn thing if it will float. Or buy new, never been in the water and discover them for yourself. If it's a well founded boat go sailing and have fun.


----------



## jorgenl

I would like to add one tip to the list:

Bring a video camera.

It has been invaluable to use during our search, we have a small Sony with 40GB har drive and you can shoot a lot of video, which really contains more info than still pictures and give you a better sense of 3D. We have watched and re-watched the videos we took during the search many times during our deliberations. It also allows you (of course) to add verbal comments as you go along an reduces the need to take written notes.


----------



## outthere09

Your inspection 'thread' is brilliant and I've printed it out as I go off today to see my first boat.

Question..what if you are buying a boat lying in another country? I assume you have plenty of exchanges with US owner prior to making a commitment...but can one rely on a boat surveyor in say, Panama? So if satisfied with owner's answers, do you go ahead and make a deal, subject to inspection and survey, like a house? Or is it best to get a broker involved (there isn't one now).

Any input appreciated.


----------



## dandas

What a fantastic post.

That is a really helpful list.

Thanks


----------



## sailingdog

Jorgen-

Didn't recommend this because not everyone has a video camera, and some people freak out when they see video cameras, but are perfectly fine with regular cameras. Also, still cameras are generally smaller than video cameras, and many newer ones have limited video capability as well.



jorgenl said:


> I would like to add one tip to the list:
> 
> Bring a video camera.
> 
> It has been invaluable to use during our search, we have a small Sony with 40GB har drive and you can shoot a lot of video, which really contains more info than still pictures and give you a better sense of 3D. We have watched and re-watched the videos we took during the search many times during our deliberations. It also allows you (of course) to add verbal comments as you go along an reduces the need to take written notes.


If you don't have access to the boat due to distance, things become a bit more complicated, unless you have a person that is local to the boat that you trust. If hiring a local surveyor makes you nervous, you can always bring in one of your own, though this is only recommended for very high-end boats, due the increased expenses of doing so.



outthere09 said:


> Your inspection 'thread' is brilliant and I've printed it out as I go off today to see my first boat.
> 
> Question..what if you are buying a boat lying in another country? I assume you have plenty of exchanges with US owner prior to making a commitment...but can one rely on a boat surveyor in say, Panama? So if satisfied with owner's answers, do you go ahead and make a deal, subject to inspection and survey, like a house? Or is it best to get a broker involved (there isn't one now).
> 
> Any input appreciated.


Glad to help...that's why I started the thread. 


dandas said:


> What a fantastic post.
> 
> That is a really helpful list.
> 
> Thanks


----------



## TSOJOURNER

Thanks for the advice sailingdog. I'm new to sailing (sorta) and your information is helpful.


----------



## jorgenl

sailingdog said:


> Jorgen-
> 
> Didn't recommend this because not everyone has a video camera, and some people freak out when they see video cameras, but are perfectly fine with regular cameras. Also, still cameras are generally smaller than video cameras, and many newer ones have limited video capability as well.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> Dog,
> 
> I agree that some people might freak out when they see a video camera. Therefore we always asked the broker politely if it was OK for us to take video film. All of them said OK. A video camera really is helpful. Ours is a very small Sony Handycam with a 80GB of hard drive, it holds somethiing like 3-40 hours of video and takes reaaly good still photographs as well.
> 
> Anyway, it worked good for us, we still have all the films of all the boats we looked at.


----------



## TSOJOURNER

Sailingdog, Great post, that Im sure will save others and me valuable dollars.

Not sure if explanation as to how to use the moisture meter and in what areas of the hull to test and how to probe/test the core was given on the thread.

Could you please elaborate on this procedure?

Thanks!


----------



## jstorm41

*Boat inspection Tips*

As a surveyor (SAMS and NAMS certified - 10 yrs and over 1000 boats) I applaud the general spirit of these tips. I think it is very smart to give a boat a very careful personal inspection before entering into a sales contract and hiring a surveyor. I really don't enjoy taking money for giving clients bad news about a boat that they could have seen for themselves.

Most of yacht surveying is not "rocket science" or fancy meters but is simply careful observation. Often the first indication of a poorly maintained boat is the dock lines, which you can observe without even boarding. If they are old, sun-rotted, chafed, or inadequate it is often a sign that maintenance elsewhere is neglected.

I agree with the suggestion that you take and use a flashlight. It is a simple tool that, in the hands of a buyer, will strike terror in some brokers and sellers - don't look at a boat without one. Use it to look in all the accessible but dark places. Anyone can see dirt, debris, rust, messy wiring, etc.

A digital camera is also another good tool. In addition to the obvious photos, you can hold it in inaccessible places and snap pictures that you can then study. (Always put the strap around your wrist first - a lesson I learned by sad experience.)

However, although I have and use one, I think that a moisture meter is probably not so useful - unless you have a good deal of experience with it. They do not measure moisture - they measure the electrical conductivity in a region around the sensor. That can be affected by many things other than moisture.

Moisture in fiberglass boats and blistering are also complex issues depending on construction, age, and location of the boat (New England is different from Florida) that I won't get into here. You do need to get good advice from someone with a lot of first hand experience in your area (and no high-dollar repairs to sell).

I also have a different opinion about the appearance of the oil in a diesel engine. The oil in a diesel will become black in just a few hours running. This is not necessarily a sign of poor maintenance (except if the boat is laid up for storage with old oil). If I see completely clean clear oil, I am concerned that the oil was just changed prior to the inspection to hide evidence of fuel dilution (smell) or water emulsion (cloudy, creamy color). An oil analysis in conjunction with the survey can sometimes be useful, but will not find anything if the oil is new.

I also would also leave the multi-tool, screwdrivers, hammers , and awl in the car. Most hull surveyors do not disassemble equipment. If it appears useful, I will have a yard or mechanic do the disassembly while I observe. If a potential buyer with unknown skills and intentions showed up at my boat with screwdrivers, wrenches, hammers and awls, I would not let him aboard.

As a matter of liability, I also don't let anyone other than a qualified and insured rigger go aloft on my boat. (There was an interesting case a few years ago where a halyard parted during an inspection, and a surveyor fell on top of the broker.) A good surveyor, mechanic, or rigger has insurance to cover his liability for damage or injury during the inspection - Do you?

However, the rig is an important part of a sailboat, and there is a lot that you should be able to see without special tools or going up the mast. A careful look at rigging terminals at deck level will often reveal swage cracking (a little magnifier helps).

Failed chainplates are probably the major cause of dismastings. Are the chainplates easy to see? or buried? Are there drips of rust staining below decks, distorted bolts, cracked sealant or other evidence of movement?

For photos of some of the evidence you can look for in the way of rig problems, you could check out the article on my web site. (Unfortunately I am not authorized to post a link here - so you will have to google "Dixieland marine rig problems" to find it).

Although, I may have some differences of opinion on details, I agree fully with sailingdog on the fundamental issue - do your homework and look carefully and in depth at any boat you are considering for purchase.

J. Stormer
S/V TROPICBIRD


----------



## sailingdog

Welcome to sailnet. I would highly recommend you read the SPECIAL INTEREST thread sticky in the boat buying forum, as it requires full disclosure by marine industry people when they post here.

As for rigging, please note, I don't recommend going aloft. I wouldn't go aloft on a strange boat, much less recommend any one do so. I do recommend taking photos of the rigging from deck level. The detail in a good digital photo, especially with a longer lens, is amazing nowadays.

I do carry a multitool pretty much 99.8% of the time, and don't see a problem with carrying one. I do recommend you ask before tapping the deck with a hammer or poking wooden backing blocks or bulkheads with an awl.

I disagree about the utility of a moisture meter. After a bit of use, you can learn how to use one well enough to determine if the deck has substantial core problems or not.

As for posting links to your website. You need to have 10 posts to post links, and be careful regarding posting links to your website, as if they are seen as trying to drum up business... you'll get nuked. 


jstorm41 said:


> As a surveyor (SAMS and NAMS certified - 10 yrs and over 1000 boats) I applaud the general spirit of these tips. I think it is very smart to give a boat a very careful personal inspection before entering into a sales contract and hiring a surveyor. I really don't enjoy taking money for giving clients bad news about a boat that they could have seen for themselves.
> 
> Most of yacht surveying is not "rocket science" or fancy meters but is simply careful observation. Often the first indication of a poorly maintained boat is the dock lines, which you can observe without even boarding. If they are old, sun-rotted, chafed, or inadequate it is often a sign that maintenance elsewhere is neglected.
> 
> I agree with the suggestion that you take and use a flashlight. It is a simple tool that, in the hands of a buyer, will strike terror in some brokers and sellers - don't look at a boat without one. Use it to look in all the accessible but dark places. Anyone can see dirt, debris, rust, messy wiring, etc.
> 
> A digital camera is also another good tool. In addition to the obvious photos, you can hold it in inaccessible places and snap pictures that you can then study. (Always put the strap around your wrist first - a lesson I learned by sad experience.)
> 
> However, although I have and use one, I think that a moisture meter is probably not so useful - unless you have a good deal of experience with it. They do not measure moisture - they measure the electrical conductivity in a region around the sensor. That can be affected by many things other than moisture.
> 
> Moisture in fiberglass boats and blistering are also complex issues depending on construction, age, and location of the boat (New England is different from Florida) that I won't get into here. You do need to get good advice from someone with a lot of first hand experience in your area (and no high-dollar repairs to sell).
> 
> I also have a different opinion about the appearance of the oil in a diesel engine. The oil in a diesel will become black in just a few hours running. This is not necessarily a sign of poor maintenance (except if the boat is laid up for storage with old oil). If I see completely clean clear oil, I am concerned that the oil was just changed prior to the inspection to hide evidence of fuel dilution (smell) or water emulsion (cloudy, creamy color). An oil analysis in conjunction with the survey can sometimes be useful, but will not find anything if the oil is new.
> 
> I also would also leave the multi-tool, screwdrivers, hammers , and awl in the car. Most hull surveyors do not disassemble equipment. If it appears useful, I will have a yard or mechanic do the disassembly while I observe. If a potential buyer with unknown skills and intentions showed up at my boat with screwdrivers, wrenches, hammers and awls, I would not let him aboard.
> 
> As a matter of liability, I also don't let anyone other than a qualified and insured rigger go aloft on my boat. (There was an interesting case a few years ago where a halyard parted during an inspection, and a surveyor fell on top of the broker.) A good surveyor, mechanic, or rigger has insurance to cover his liability for damage or injury during the inspection - Do you?
> 
> However, the rig is an important part of a sailboat, and there is a lot that you should be able to see without special tools or going up the mast. A careful look at rigging terminals at deck level will often reveal swage cracking (a little magnifier helps).
> 
> Failed chainplates are probably the major cause of dismastings. Are the chainplates easy to see? or buried? Are there drips of rust staining below decks, distorted bolts, cracked sealant or other evidence of movement?
> 
> For photos of some of the evidence you can look for in the way of rig problems, you could check out the article on my web site. (Unfortunately I am not authorized to post a link here - _(edited SD)_.
> 
> Although, I may have some differences of opinion on details, I agree fully with sailingdog on the fundamental issue - do your homework and look carefully and in depth at any boat you are considering for purchase.
> 
> J. Stormer
> S/V TROPICBIRD


----------



## jstorm41

I apologize for mentioning the web site. For the record, I'm actually not really interested in more business as I am trying to retire and do more sailing. Thanks for your comments. - J. Stormer


----------



## therapy23

jstorm41 said:


> I apologize for mentioning the web site. For the record, I'm actually not really interested in more business as I am *trying to retire *and do more sailing. Thanks for your comments. - J. Stormer


Dang!
Where are you?
I was going to ask what it would cost to go to Puerto Rico and do a survey on a small cat.
Maybe another thread.

Dog......is a new thread in classifieds "Wanted surveyor to go to PR" an OK thing to do?


----------



## sailingdog

LOL... asking for a surveyor is not the same as being one and posting on the forums... AFAIK, it is fine to post help wanted ads...not kosher to try drumming up business.... not that Jstorm was doing that AFAICT.


----------



## therapy23

sailingdog said:


> LOL... asking for a surveyor is not the same as being one and posting on the forums... AFAIK, it is fine to post help wanted ads...not kosher to try drumming up business.... not that Jstorm was doing that AFAICT.


OK thanks.
Low-balling now.
Might need one.


----------



## shawnkillam

Sailingdog,
most excellent post / idea. I have printed it and will be using it for a guide in a couple of days.

Any thoughts about arranging to charter the boat for a few days. Under an extended sea trial (charter) what additional things would you look for.

sk


----------



## davidpm

It is doubtfully than someone would allow you to charter their boat if they were not already in the business. Insurance, paperwork etc. 
Unlikely to get the boat without the owner and maybe less likely with the owner. What owner would want to put themselves through that.


----------



## bardia

Thanks for starting this thread Dog. I'm off to check out my first boat ever and wasn't sure if I knew what to look for, and for that reason wouldn't have known if and what offers to make. Was just going to go, hope for the best with my instincts, cause I have to start somewhere right?
Thanks everyone for your input.
Giu your a wild one!!!


----------



## bardia

Jstorm, just read your site. Thanks for directing us to it. I'm glad you didn't get nuced. Dog and you are a good team!!


----------



## sailingdog

Glad to help Bardia.  Good luck with the boat.


----------



## therapy23

SD,
I too will be going to a survey on Monday and will take some of the info with me. Really new boat so some does not apply but...........

Thanks.


----------



## TSOJOURNER

dam good tips I never thought about buying a moisture meter. I guess you just use this devise anywhere you think there could be water like around chainplates or whatever. I may just have to purchase this thing when I really get serious about buy some boats. So I see on the meter it may go from 0-30% so when you take a reading I assume you are wanting that reading to be 0 all the time correct and the higher the number the more expensive the repairs could be? 

Thanks
Chris


----------



## eherlihy

No, the meter will read up to 10% on a dry deck from the moisture in the air, and moisture that should be in the Balsa or marine ply. 

I use my meter to detect changes in the moisture readings as I slide the meter over the deck and hull. I wipe the deck with a cotton cloth as I slide the meter along to remove dirt, or any surface moisture (even on a dry day). When the meter reads over 20% that is a good indication of excessive moisture in a cored deck or hull. 

- Ed


----------



## Mimsy

Don't nuke *Jstorm* yet! He was the surveyor who recommended us to another surveyor who met the ARE's definition of a thorough survey. I can vouch for the fact that he was more than willing to pass on the name of another quality surveyor when he was too busy to schedule us. In my experience with him, his motivations were absolutely not to put more cash in his pockets but to help us find the quality of survey we were looking for in a timely manner. His first concern was our needs, not his.

Back to your regularly scheduled thread...


----------



## JimMcGee

*Couple of thoughts*

Great Post! Here are a couple of things that came to mind while reading through the thread.

- No matter how knowledgeable you are get a survey. I went over my current boat in detail. The surveyor found a couple of things I missed and I picked up a couple of things he missed. Between the two of us I had a really good snapshot of the boat.

- For every electrical upgrade or bit of electronics added take a look at the electrical installation. My boat was OK, but I've seem some things that made me cringe.

- Before looking at the boat spend some time online researching both the boat and the engine. Knowing what problems are common to a certain model can save you a lot of time, heartache and dollars.

- CAREFULLY read what is supposed to be included with the boat. I found two versions of the listing for my boat. The first one listed a dinghy and outboard the second didn't. It turned out the seller was no longer in the area and the broker was trying to keep the dinghy and motor for himself. The "oversight" was only corrected when I pushed the issue with the broker.

Jim


----------



## sailingdog

JimMcGee said:


> Great Post! Here are a couple of things that came to mind while reading through the thread.
> 
> - No matter how knowledgeable you are get a survey. I went over my current boat in detail. The surveyor found a couple of things I missed and I picked up a couple of things he missed. Between the two of us I had a really good snapshot of the boat.


My post was never intended to replace a proper survey... just help eliminate the boats that aren't worthy of investing the money for a survey.



> - For every electrical upgrade or bit of electronics added take a look at the electrical installation. My boat was OK, but I've seem some things that made me cringe.
> 
> - Before looking at the boat spend some time online researching both the boat and the engine. Knowing what problems are common to a certain model can save you a lot of time, heartache and dollars.
> 
> - CAREFULLY read what is supposed to be included with the boat. I found two versions of the listing for my boat. The first one listed a dinghy and outboard the second didn't. It turned out the seller was no longer in the area and the broker was trying to keep the dinghy and motor for himself. The "oversight" was only corrected when I pushed the issue with the broker.
> 
> Jim


Very good points... and many boats have issues that are common to the make and model, especially for specific years, like the Catalina "Smile" and the plywood keel stub support.


----------



## TSOJOURNER

Thanks Ed so I assume surveyors if there unshore of the outside of a hull after pounding on it will then maybe use the meter or is a meter really mainly used for the decks?? I would think if there doing a moisture test they would need to fully dry off the boat before so. 

Thanks sailingdog I know you were just giving pointers for someone to save a little money and i truely appreciate that because that is a fear of what if I go see a boat I like it and use a surveyer and he finds stuff that makes me not want the boat I just wasted 500+

Thanks,
Chris


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## jstorm41

*Moisture meters*

If you buy or borrow a moisture meter to use while looking over a boat for possible purchase there are a couple of things to keep in mind:

1. The meter measures the radio frequency electrical conductivity of the material it is in contact with (and below the surface to a variable depth). The meter does not directly measure water. Many materials, including fiberglass laminate and various gelcoats and paints, have some RF conductivity. You will not get a zero reading even on "bone dry" fiberglass. It will vary to some degree with the type of resin and fiber (typicall about 10%-15% on the "wood" scale see #2 below). Of course, water saturated materials do have higher RF conductivity. Primarily what I look for is large variations around chainplates, deck mounted Genoa track (often a culprit), and other penetrations.

2. The "Percent" scale is for WOOD only - not fiberglass. On fiberglass you can only use it for relative measurements. Look for anomalous areas - real wet deck core usually will "peg" the meter.

3. If the boat is wet stored, or has only recently been hauled, the meter will not tell you very much about the bottom below the waterline. You probably need several days and perhaps more, depending on how long the boat has been in the water. All resins (including epoxy and vinylester) have a finite diffusion coefficient for water (i.e. they all will absorb some molecular water over a long enough period of time). In New England, where boats typically spend less than 6 mo/yr in the water, the bottoms should dry quickly. In Florida and TX where they sit in hot water for years at a stretch, resins will absorb quite a bit of water over that time. On a 1 hr quick-haul for survey (normal here in TX) the bottoms ALWAYS read wet on a meter.

Hope this helps you-all.

J Stormer


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## eherlihy

*A nit...*



> 1. The meter measures the radio frequency electrical conductivity of the material it is in contact with (and below the surface to a variable depth). The meter does not directly measure water.


 According to the manufacturer, pinless meters (ie CT-33) actually measure the capacitance, that is the ability of the material to store an electrical charge. In effect the back of the meter has an electric plate, which acts as one plate of a capacitor. The water, which is conductive, acts as the other plate, and the fiberglass, which does not, is a dielectric between the two plates. This is why moisture (dew) on the surface of the fiberglass dry will give spurious (high) readings.



> Primarily what I look for is large variations around chainplates, deck mounted Genoa track (often a culprit), and other penetrations.


Right on!! The theory of how they work is less important than where and how you test, and interpret the results.

I bring a deck / hull diagram with me, and make sure that my meter is calibrated immediately before I use it (it can vary from day to day with humidity) and try to establish a baseline on the particular boat that I am checking. The baseline reading is at a point that I feel confident has not been compromised by moisture. I then at moisture prone areas, and only look for large variations in the readings. I have found that most decks that I have checked have a baseline, on the CT-33 meter, between 5 and 10. When I see the needle pass 25% I note that area as being "moist" on my diagram. I then search around the deck and continue to note the 25% moisture cline on my diagram as I scan around.

HTH!

Ed


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## TSOJOURNER

Thanks J stormer yeah I was thinking here in Louisiana boats are always in the water so useing this meter below the waterline here is kinda pointless but yeah i can see how it could be used up north more. The more I keep reading the more I feel like i need to try and buy something on the north east coast although it may cost me more to get it back here it maybe better off in the long run.

Thanks
Chris


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## sailingdog

Most bottom paints would throw the meter off in any case, since they're full of metallic salts... 


chris2998 said:


> Thanks J stormer yeah I was thinking here in Louisiana boats are always in the water so useing this meter below the waterline here is kinda pointless but yeah i can see how it could be used up north more. The more I keep reading the more I feel like i need to try and buy something on the north east coast although it may cost me more to get it back here it maybe better off in the long run.
> 
> Thanks
> Chris


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## TSOJOURNER

thanks, I sure do like that little moisture meter i may ahve to get one. I was telling ag uy at work about it and he never heard of it either


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## TSOJOURNER

test


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## JimMcGee

*Inexpensive meter*

JStorm and Ed are correct about the meters and how to use them to spot wet areas.

For inspecting boats, and just trying to identify wet deck cores, I'm thinking this $35 meter from Woodcraft might do the trick.

It would also be a good idea to check around any stains in plywood or wood trim to get an idea if there are any leaking hatches.

Great thread SailingDog!


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## eherlihy

JimMcGee said:


> JStorm and Ed are correct about the meters and how to use them to spot wet areas.


Thanks for the confirmation!



> For inspecting boats, and just trying to identify wet deck cores, I'm thinking this $35 meter from Woodcraft might do the trick.


Unfortunately, this meter won't work - at least for checking moisture in the core of a fiberglass hull or deck. If you watch the video, you'll see that the moisture probe requires pulling the black cover off the pins, and then inserting the pins into the surface of the object that you wish to test. (This is a resistance type meter.) Before you stick pins through the fiberglass and into the core of any part of the boat, you better check with the owner..



> It would also be a good idea to check around any stains in plywood or wood trim to get an idea if there are any leaking hatches.


Evidence of moisture here usually dosen't require a meter. You can either see tracks of stain, or (in several boats that I've seen) the wood has begun to decay.

- Ed


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## swimnfit

Thanks for the link to your post Saildog. Fantastic advice and much of it I will use while I cull the herd of candidate sailboats.


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## stewsam

Any thoughts on steel yachts...what (apart from rust) should I be looking for..?


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## sailingdog

Swimnfit—

Glad to help... good luck and keep us posted.  

StewSam—

corrosion is clearly the greatest problem affecting steel boats. However, there are some other issues, and many of them won't be readily diagnosed or recognized by the average boater. The type of steel used is often a huge factor in the longevity and durability of a steel boat, as is the preparation and surface treatment of the steel. Neither of these are something that you can tell by just looking at the boat. 

There are also issues of balance and performance with steel boats that are less obvious. If the boat wasn't drawn as a steel boat to begin with, there may be some serious compromises to the boat's performance and stability.


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## stewsam

It's a van der stadt Cumulant II design, made by van der vliss shipyard in holland, it's a folkboat derivative, there are lots of them for sale in holland...


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## TSOJOURNER

All I can say is WOW! Thanks so much for the heads up. Great information.


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## TSOJOURNER

*When is a surveyor not needed?*

Excellent posts! I am finally starting the process of getting a boat bigger than a hobiecat and am looking for a trailerable 20-25' and looking to spend $2-4k. At what point is a boat too small or too low in price to pay for a surveyor (would still definitely use the checklist!)? I am not sure of their cost structure but saw pricing in the $600 range in an earlier post.


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## Curm

jstorm41 said:


> As a surveyor (SAMS and NAMS certified - 10 yrs and over 1000 boats) I applaud the general spirit of these tips. I think it is very smart to give a boat a very careful personal inspection before entering into a sales contract and hiring a surveyor. I really don't enjoy taking money for giving clients bad news about a boat that they could have seen for themselves.
> 
> J. Stormer
> S/V TROPICBIRD


I respectfully disagree. I would never make an offer on a boat or enter into any binding contract until a surveyor had seen it and reported back to me.

First, you save yourself the travel costs. If you have to get on a plane to see the boat and stay overnight, a survey is always cheaper than going yourself.

Secondly, a surveyor is going to see things that I don't see. He evaluates hundreds of boats and has a basis for comparison of this particular boat to similar boats. I don't.

If the surveyor gives me a positive report, then and only then will I go see the boat.

But before retaining the surveyor, I ask the broker for any prior surveys, for pictures and other details that were not in the advertisment. I call the builder and ask questions, or if the builder is defunct I try to find someone who worked for the builder. I scour the web for information on the boat. I try to locate the person who owned the boat before the present owner. If it's in a marina I talk to the manager. At that point I should have a fairly good idea of whether or not I am interested enough in this particular boat to invest $500 or so in a survey.

Brokers and sellers hate it when you want to survey the boat before entering into a P&S. So it must be the right thing to do.


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## JohnRPollard

Curm said:


> ...Brokers and sellers hate it when you want to survey the boat before entering into a P&S. So it must be the right thing to do.


The surveyors must love you!! 

But I couldn't disagree more with the advice.

Why would an owner let a stranger with whom they have no contractual relation send a surveyor aboard their vessel? 

As an owner, that one would not even pass my giggle test.

Also, as a prospective purchaser, I would not rely on a surveyor's opinion to determine whether I wanted to place an offer on a boat. I would rely on my own inspection and research first. As likely as not, the answer will be that I don't want to make an offer. When and if I do make an offer that is accepted, I would then hire a surveyor to confirm the condition of the vessel and rule out the possibility of hidden defects as part of my caveat emptor due diligence.

If you are worried about the cost of travel, a good approach is to focus on boats in your geographic region that do not require expensive travel arrangements to inspect.

If your dream boat is in a distant location -- some surveyors will agree to do a quick "drive-by" for a minimal fee and let you know whether it might be worth the trip to see it for yourself (we also have a list of folks here at Sailnet who have agreed to do the same.)

Except in very unusual circumstances, I would not hire for a full survey sight-unseen, and of course not until a P&S agreement had been accepted by both buyer and seller.


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## Curm

JohnRPollard said:


> The surveyors must love you!!
> 
> Why would an owner let a stranger with whom they have no contractual relation send a surveyor aboard their vessel?


Because the owner wants to sell the boat. A prospective buyer who is willing to pay for a survey is obviously interested.

The prospective buyer is also a "stranger with whom they have no contractual relation." Why is it ok to let one stranger inspect the boat but not another? The surveyor in this case is acting as the buyer's representative, just as a buyer's broker would be.

What the sellers really fear is a very knowledgable person examining the boat before some poor fish of a buyer has signed on the dotted line.

If the boat is in good condition, no owner should object.


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## JohnRPollard

Curm said:


> Because the owner wants to sell the boat. A prospective buyer who is willing to pay for a survey is obviously interested.
> 
> The prospective buyer is also a "stranger with whom they have no contractual relation." Why is it ok to let one stranger inspect the boat but not another? The surveyor in this case is acting as the buyer's representative, just as a buyer's broker would be.
> 
> What the sellers really fear is a very knowledgable person examining the boat before some poor fish of a buyer has signed on the dotted line.
> 
> If the boat is in good condition, no owner should object.


Precisely because my boat _is_ in good condition, I would definitely object.

The distinction I am drawing is between a situation where you have a contract with a stranger -- one which stipulates the obligations of all parties to that contract -- and one where you have no relation whatsoever with that stranger.

It's a common misperception that signing "on the dotted line" binds the buyer to pay the offered and accepted price. In a standard boat purchase agreement, it does no such thing. The agreed price is subject to renegotiation or even rescission CONTINGENT UPON THE OUTCOME OF THE SURVEY.

So if you are worried that you will get stuck with some major problem that the surveyor finds, your concerns are misplaced. You can re-negotiate or walk away entirely at your discretion.

In fact, getting the survey in advance would likely place you at a disadvantage in the price negotiations. Without an agreed sales price, you have no figure (except the asking price!!) against which to place the surveyor's repair estimates for any shortcomings that are detected in survey.


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## Curm

I'm an experienced business lawyer. I understand contingencies in a P&S.

No matter. It's not worth the effort to enter into protracted price negotiations after a survey has revealed significant defects in a boat.
You are paying for the survey in either case, aren't you?

If you think enough of the boat to seriously consider an offer, a survey before making the offer costs you nothing, since once you make the offer, you are committed to hiring a surveyor anyway.

Also, getting the survey up front allows me to take all of the significant defects into account up front. If I still like the boat enough to make an offer, I will make the appropriate price adjustments then. I'm not going to get stuck with an uncompensated problem in any event.

That's the way its done in business-- a non bindling letter of intent followed by due diligence, and if the diligence is acceptable, then a P&S with appropriate closing conditions. The residential real estate model, where the P&S is signed first, is far too advantageous for the seller, for whom the brokers work (as do yacht brokers).


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## Naughtylus

I have no axe to grind here, but recently bought a boat in San Francisco while working in Dubai. The fact was that the only boats on offer of the type I wanted were in the states.

I had a pretty good idea of the boat's condition from a lengthy correspondence with the PO, and having shown a definite interest in buying the boat I asked him if he would mind having a survey done at my expense.

He did not object having realized from the correspondence that I was serious. (In fact the very act of paying for a survey indicates a serious approach I guess.)
The air fare was $2000, and the survey fee from an accredited surveyor was $500.
For me this was a no-brainer and after the successful survey I committed, paid the deposit, then went to SF to complete, and pack up the boat for transport.
I made a good friend of the PO, and my boat arrives tomorrow!

OK - I took something of a risk buying the boat unseen except for photographs, but the survey was my insurance.

All round success so far. (The boat's still to be craned off the container ship and motored round to the marina for mast stepping.. fingers crossed)


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## ottos

Curm said:


> If you think enough of the boat to seriously consider an offer, a survey before making the offer costs you nothing, since once you make the offer, you are committed to hiring a surveyor anyway.


Not exactly. You are only committed if your offer is accepted.

I think that the premise is that you negotiate to what you are willing to pay to get that boat. If it needs repairs to make it serviceable, you will deduct those costs from your agreed price. (Of course some more bargaining will go on.)

If you were offering asking price, then I would agree with you, but I think most people bargain down.

Why go through the expense of a survey if your offer is not a sure thing?


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## Curm

Even if an offer is not acxcepted, a majority of sellers will counter offer. No one pays full list in this market. Not on a houise, not on a boat. The broker will know this even if the seller does not.

As a practical matter, sending the surveryor first saves me time and money. My time is valuable, and so is yours.

As a legal matter, sending the surveyor first protects me in the following case: the surveyor comes back and says, there's nothing really wrong with it, but there's alot of mileage on it, and I've seen this same model in better condition for the same price. In fact, there's one in a marina 20 miles away from here that's much nicer. I surveyed that boat but the deal fell through and I know she's still available.

Try dealing with that scenario if you've already signed the standard Yacht Broker's form. If you want to get out, say goodbye to your security deposit.


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## davidpm

Curm said:


> surveyor comes back and says, there's nothing really wrong with it, but there's alot of mileage on it, and I've seen this same model in better condition for the same price. In fact, there's one in a marina 20 miles away from here that's much nicer. I surveyed that boat but the deal fell through and I know she's still available.
> Try dealing with that scenario if you've already signed the standard Yacht Broker's form. If you want to get out, say goodbye to your security deposit.


I know you are an attorney but you obviously don't know about an immutable law of boating.
Never under any circumstances will anyone tell you about another boat nicer and cheaper than the one you are looking at until you sign the contract. When the survey is done does not matter. the law states very clearly that you have to sign the contract before you can be told of the better deal.

A corollary to that law is that if you weasel out of the deal the "other boat" will be a dog and you will not want it. When you come back to buy the first boat it will have sold for less than the contract that you broke.

Even the best of attorneys can not evade immutable laws of the sea.


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## davidpm

Naughtylus said:


> For me this was a no-brainer and after the successful survey I committed, paid the deposit, then went to SF to complete, and pack up the boat for transport.
> I made a good friend of the PO, and my boat arrives tomorrow!


Just curious did you pay list. If no how was the matter of price worked out. I assume you guys came to verbal agreement before you sent in the surveyor.

If so, in better times, if the owner happed to be around when the survey was done and figured out the boat surveyed well there would be reason he could not sell the boat to someone else the next day.
With a verbal agreement he knows your highest number and is free to beat it.

In this market maybe not much of a risk though.


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## davidpm

Personally I would love it if someone wanted to survey my boat before putting in an offer. In fact the more they spent looking at my boat the better. Now when they put in an offer that is less than list I can ask to see a copy of the survey, since that is the basis of the reduced amount.
I now have all this time with a recent survey paid by someone else to attempt to sell it to someone else. If my contract avoider and I come to a verbal agreement on the price before that is even better. I now have a floor price I can try to beat.

The fact of the matter is that even if a contract is signed many brokers will still show a boat just in case the deal falls through. I would be interested in hearing from any brokers what percentage of deals fall through. I'll bet it is at least 10%.

I suspect our new lawyer friend is looking for a very limited edition boat so he has to search a large area. After he does everything he can by phone, spending the $500 makes sense. The advantage of not signing a contract is he doesn't have to worry about getting his 5,000 deposit back. If he looses the boat, not likely in this market, oh well.
For those of us who are looking more locally and maybe not spending as much on a boat the contract first approach might work better or at least will not matter much.

There are three risks:

Getting your money back from the deposit (It should be a no brainier but you never know. Brokers I have talked to say that they return deposits for what they consider trivial reasons all the time because they don't want the hassle of forcing a sale on an unhappy customer.)
Finding a better deal after you have a contract
Loosing the deal you have because you don't have a contract
Frankly all three are possible but unlikely. 
Folks will do what causes them the least worry.

The bottom line is that that no matter how careful you are buying the boat is just the first of hundreds of decisions you will make to manage risk.

I would find it interesting if our lawyer would read a standard contract and report back to us (no charge of course). I always understood that the contract was binding on the seller. They could not sell the boat I had a contract on even if they were offered more money. The contract was binding on me the buyer in theory only as all I had to do was find something that was not exactly as specified in the listing or found on the survey and I could walk.

I believe the reason why brokers and sellers like the contract is purely physiological not legal. Buyers are 10 times more skittish than sellers and the act of signing a contract and putting down money shows they are serious and emotionally commits them. 
Has anyone ever heard of someone not being allowed to walk away from a boat sales contract. I have not. I'm sure some salesman are tougher than others. It's like the federal penalty for ripping of the tag on your mattress.
(Yes I know it does not apply to the end user)


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## Naughtylus

davidpm said:


> Just curious did you pay list. If no how was the matter of price worked out. I assume you guys came to verbal agreement before you sent in the surveyor.


The asking price came down considerably over a period of about three months when the PO and I were communicating. This was a 'limited edition' boat, and so the PO and I knew of pretty much all the others currently on offer.

He was being cornered by a broker specializing in these boats who was looking for a 6 month exclusive contract, meaning even the PO wouldn't have the right to sell it, and expecting him to transport it across the States to their local yard, at his expense. In addition they were going to raise the price considerably. 
The eventual outcome might have been that the boat could have taken months to sell, and maybe the price would have come down again. 
Take off the brokers cut and he would have been worse off.

He eventually reduced his price enough to avoid that situation, and made me an acceptable offer, at which point I agreed, subject to getting a positive survey result.

I should comment that the brokers concerned are reputable, professional, useful as a central information resource for these boats, and have to make a profit , but for a buyer and seller who had already been in contact for a period of time, their input was unnecessary.


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## Curm

Well there are two downsides to doing the survey first. 1. You have to pay for it. 2. There is no "standstill" arrangement. Until you sign the P&S, another buyer could come along and grab the boat.

I am happy to give the seller a copy of the survey whether I choose to make an offer or not.

As for the surveyor, of course he will tell you about other boats. He works for you, the buyer, not the seller. Also, I look for a surveyor who is familiar with the model in which I am interested and has done recent surveys of that model.

I used this procedure in two cases. In the first, a boat in NC, the surveyor told me that at some point the cabin had been full of water, even though they had disguised it nicely. I did not make an offer. Several months later the surveyor told me that the next boat in which I was interested was in "cherry" condition. So I made an offer that was 12% below asking (a good offer in today's market) and it was accepted immediately. The only negotiating was what equipment would be included in the boat i.e. the inflatable. I got that too, even it was not mentioned in the listing.

IMHO instead of trying to learn how to be a surveyor, a buyer should spend his or her time very carefully going over the listing and making sure that everything you want is included. What about the inflatable, the outoard, the oars? Galley equiment? Fenders? The flat scxreen TV? Extra sails? Map chips for the chartplotter? Engine spares? Let your sureveyor deal with structural or mechanical issues.


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## JohnRPollard

Curm said:


> Try dealing with that scenario if you've already signed the standard Yacht Broker's form. If you want to get out, say goodbye to your security deposit.


Curm,

I get the impression that you've never read the standard purchase agreement used with boats sold through brokers.

In the standard boat broker purchase agreement, the contract language is tremendously advantageous to _the buyer_. As I previously mentioned, the language allows the buyer to survey and sea-trial the vessel, after which the agreed purchase price may be accepted by the buyer, or it may be subject to renegotiation or rescission.

If the buyer does not like the shine of the gelcoat, or the way the boat sails, or its speed under power, etc etc, the buyer may walk away or renegotiate-- at the buyer's sole discretion.

Provided you meet your obligations under the purchase agreement, there is absolutely no problem getting your deposit back. It is held in escrow by the broker -- the seller never touches it -- and in most cases your check does not even get deposited until the purchase is consummated (in the case of both boats we've purchased, our deposit checks were returned to us and we wrote a second check at closing for the full amount.)

Your approach -- surveying first -- seems devised to address a problem that doesn't exist. Either that or you have -- as some do -- circumstances where previewing a vessel yourself is problematic. But most folks can and want to have a look at a boat themselves before making an offer -- and will save themselves the cost of the survey if they and the seller are unlikely ever to come to terms on a purchase price.

_________

Okay, those are just my opinions as a Sailnet member. But this thread was supposed to be a repository of helpful advice and tips for folks that plan to preview/inspect a boat themselves prior to making an offer. So now, as a moderator, I'm going to suggest that we take this other discussion to a new thread. If somebody wants to start a new thread titled along the lines of "Survey Before or After Making an Offer??", have at it. Let's not derail this one any further.


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## Curm

JohnRPollard said:


> Curm,
> 
> I get the impression that you've never read the standard purchase agreement used with boats sold through brokers.
> 
> In the standard boat broker purchase agreement, the contract language is tremendously advantageous to _the buyer_. As I previously mentioned, the language allows the buyer to survey and sea-trial the vessel, after which the agreed purchase price may be accepted by the buyer, or it may be subject to renegotiation or rescission.


Yes, you can walk away unless the "acceptance date" has passed, less any expenses incurred by the broker or seller.

I don't see the standard agreement as particularly favorable to the buyer. The time is of the essence provision hurts the buyer, as does the warranty disclaimer at the end.


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## southwindphoto

Thanks for all the information. I’ve made check list with it.


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## Shipislandpirate

Thank you so much for this post...I am currently in the process of buying my first boat..A Sabre 34 and you have help ease my fears of missing something and have gone ahead and made the offer subject to a survey and sea-trial...

John


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## closehauled14

Sailingdog- this is a great thred. Lots of good info in here.


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## Estragon

Good post. Probably not a bad idea to go through the list on boats we already own!


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## davidpm

Based on a recent post I wonder if it is worth the trouble to hoist a tape measure up to the top of the mast to measure how tall it is. I have heard of people cutting the mast down a few inches to eliminate damage.


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## TSOJOURNER

Thanks for that im about to buy my first boat and that is all good info


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## northernnecklon

Excellant list. Most helpful. Printing it out in prep for next boating trip next week.


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## SPC

It is ironic that the previous comments have forgotten one of the very best sources. Search the web, especially sites devoted to that make and/or model. 

I was very interested in a boat not too far from here and by using the Internet, learned that there was post compression, deck leaks, that the new engine didn't match the propeller, and that the sails were NDG. The seller knew all this but did not disclose it to the broker or to me -- at least that is what the broker said. So, apparently the plan was for me to negotiate an offer as if the boat was as advertised, spend several hundred dollars to discover the truth -- best case -- and then try to negotiate a more reasonable price.

I have two rules of thumb when buying used cars -- that I do a lot-- and I think that they apply. The first is that the seller is the most important variable. If you can believe in the seller (previous owner), then 90% of your problems disappear. Second, no one sells a vehicle that they are perfectly satisfied with. That would be ridiculous. If you can identify the straw that broke the camel's back, then you can make a very reasonable purchase. If you can't, then it is still important to rely on your assessment of the seller. Sometimes, it was the last repair they had to pay for -- that is terrific.

In my case, I was able to force the seller to divulge more of what they knew, including sharing the previous survey. I did not buy the boat, but it was purely a difference of opinion about reasonable price.

There are many protections in CA for home buyers, especially regarding disclosure of known problems. There ought to be something similar for boats and cars -- in my opinion. At a minimum, do Internet due diligence and see what you can find.


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## sailingdog

Yes, owners associations and websites devoted to the boat can be a great resource, but many boats don't have the luxury of having a strong owners association or website devoted to them. 

I'd also agree that the seller is a huge variable. The reason they're selling is often key to getting to the truth of what the boat is really like and why it is priced the way it is. I'd disagree that people don't sell boats that they love because there are many reasons for selling a boat, many of which have little to do with the qualities or condition of the boat itself. I've seen boats that were being sold because the spouse wanted it gone... or they were getting divorced, or they were getting married, or they were moving, or they were getting too old to handle it... etc... none of which means has any reflection on whether it was or is a problem boat.


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## cockerline123

useful post. thanks!


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## gregwet

Thanks for this incredibly helpful post.


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## dantaden

I'll share an experience referencing back to sailingdog's list of things to check in a survey - Motor Mounts.

Prior to purchasing our current boat, we made multiple inspections, a trial sail and SAM survey. As a result, came up with a short list of defects for the previous owner to repair prior to sale, and I was very confident in what I knew I purchased.

We have a 72hp Mercedes Diesel engine weighing approx. 640 lbs. The boat was originally fitted with an engine drive compressor for refrigeration. We removed the compressor and opted to re-fit for a battery powered unit.
I believe this was a significant change which resulted in the engine moving forward off its mounts by 3 ½ inches. Unknown to us at the time, we luckily motored home in this condition without known serious damage. In fact after the initial inspection I had to call a dock buddy for a second opinion because I couldn’t believe what I was seeing.

During the repair we found that 2 of 4 mounts broke long before I bought the boat, realized by traces of rust on the post at the break point. We also believe the old compressor and belt held the engine in place, but by removing it added further pressure on the mounts to the breaking point.

Although this may have been a very difficult defect to find, lessons learned – when buying an older boat, motor mounts would be considered one of the first things to replace, for peace of mind and savings in the long run.

The inspections and surveys paid off – after our first year we had no other problems, the engine purrs, and we are very happy with what we bought.


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## sailingdog

Glad to help guys...


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## smbragg

*Thank You*

Sailingdog, Appreciate this post and it is very timely. After 20 years of racing small boats, ready to purchase first cruiser. Will re-inspect the vessel again tomorrow and will carry this equipment. Am lucky--boat well maintained and meticulous maintenacne/repair records.

Question--offer is made contingent on succesful survey. Is it customary that seller is responsible for all improvements identified in survey?


----------



## davidpm

Many buyers would prefer a dollar adjustment to the price of the boat rather than having the seller do repairs. The seller may be tempted to do the repairs the cheapest possible way while the buyer may want to upgrade a little while doing repairs.


----------



## sailingdog

No, typically, any defects found in the survey, if serious, are used to adjust the price. _Either the seller adjusts the price, or pays to have the work done, or the deal falls through. _

As DavidPM notes, the best and most palatable option for both parties is usually a price adjustment. The seller doesn't usually cover the full price of the repair, and the buyer gets to have the repair done to their satisfaction after taking ownership of the boat.



smbragg said:


> Sailingdog, Appreciate this post and it is very timely. After 20 years of racing small boats, ready to purchase first cruiser. Will re-inspect the vessel again tomorrow and will carry this equipment. Am lucky--boat well maintained and meticulous maintenacne/repair records.
> 
> Question--offer is made contingent on succesful survey. Is it customary that seller is responsible for all improvements identified in survey?


----------



## marinelite

*moisture meter*

Would you elaborate on how and where you use a moisture meter?

Thanks

Mike


----------



## marinelite

Would you elaborate on how and where to use a moisture meter?

Thanks, Mike


----------



## Diceman

Bing a newbee to sailing and the site. The 13 pages of this post have been very helpful as I look for what to look for in the sailboat when I do fine the one I like.
Diceman


----------



## 7yrstogo

Very nice post thankyou. Also very appropriate. I was a dinghy sailor as a kid, and have been inspired again in my old age. Kids and husband think I have gone totally bonkers, but are going along with me patronisingly. I am on a very tight budget with lots of requirements, including getting them all on board with their surfboards. Your tips above at least let me look intelligently at a boat on initial inspection. I think I will leave the going aloft for more experienced collegues when I have narrowed down my selection of used boats from your suggestions and my personaly preferences.


----------



## rjcaudle

*Price*

Saildog,

How do you come up with a reasonable offer, not offensive to seller?

newbie


----------



## eherlihy

rjcaudle said:


> How do you come up with a reasonable offer, not offensive to seller?


Here is my rule of thumb. 'Dog may do otherwise:

I look at the boat. I take copious notes, then sleep on it. The next day I come up with 3 numbers: Initial offer, Target price, Walk away price. If my Initial offer is within 80% of the asking price, I make an offer. If not, I proceed to the next boat. If the seller counters, and it is above my Walk away price, then I proceed to the next boat. If the counter is less than my Walk away, then we continue to negotiate.

I believe that most sellers actually believe that their boats are all in Bristol condition, and are asking TOP dollar for their boats. Unfortunately, most of these sellers are mistaken. A boat that is truly in Bristol condition is worth a substantial premium over a typical boat. One that has been neglected, however, is worth substantially less than a typical boat, and quite possibly, *less *than $0.


----------



## dhays

*Saildog, another question on this topic...*

An old but very helpful thread, thanks.

I've made an offer on a boat in SoCal that I was not able to see ahead of time. In essence, I made an offer sight unseen. The offer was contingent upon satisfactory inspection, sea trial, and survey. They countered and I accepted the counter offer.

I've found the local surveyor that I want to use. He is an accomplished sailor, familiar with the type of boat I'm looking at, and was highly recommended by a local sailor in my own Yacht Club who used him for a purchase a couple years ago. He is also specifically listed as an "approved" surveyor by my insurance company. So far so good.

The question is this. The surveyor is very happy to do the survey for me at a rate that sounds reasonable. However, he would also be willing to accompany me on the sea trial as well ahead of time. He would charge for this service, about 1/3 of what a survey would cost, but would have the chance to view the boat, systems, sails, and rigging in a dynamic environment as they are actually used. I'm tempted to do this. While I have lots of sailing experience, I'm not that experienced with yacht maintenance. I can tell if the boat sails well, but I don't think that I'm experienced enough to pick up on things that he might. If we see things that are deal-breakers, then the boat won't be hauled and it won't be surveyed, saving me the cost. OTOH, if the boat checks out OK, I still may get some worthwhile advice, opinions, etc... from an experienced circumnavigator on the boat.

The hat that he would be wearing during the sea trial is different that the one he would be wearing when he surveys the boat, I understand that. Given all that, do you think it may be worth $250-$300 to have him participate in the sea trial?

Dave


----------



## sailingdog

Maine Sail has written an excellent article on the use of a moisture meter, which you can read *HERE*. Basically, you would want to use a moisture meter to see if there has been water intrusion into the deck and such. In many cases you can't use it to check the hull, since the bottom paint can throw off the meter, especially if the boat has been in the water recently.



marinelite said:


> Would you elaborate on how and where to use a moisture meter?
> 
> Thanks, Mike


----------



## sailingdog

Yes, I think it would be worthwhile to have the surveyor accompany you on the sea trial.


dhays said:


> An old but very helpful thread, thanks.
> 
> I've made an offer on a boat in SoCal that I was not able to see ahead of time. In essence, I made an offer sight unseen. The offer was contingent upon satisfactory inspection, sea trial, and survey. They countered and I accepted the counter offer.
> 
> I've found the local surveyor that I want to use. He is an accomplished sailor, familiar with the type of boat I'm looking at, and was highly recommended by a local sailor in my own Yacht Club who used him for a purchase a couple years ago. He is also specifically listed as an "approved" surveyor by my insurance company. So far so good.
> 
> The question is this. The surveyor is very happy to do the survey for me at a rate that sounds reasonable. However, he would also be willing to accompany me on the sea trial as well ahead of time. He would charge for this service, about 1/3 of what a survey would cost, but would have the chance to view the boat, systems, sails, and rigging in a dynamic environment as they are actually used. I'm tempted to do this. While I have lots of sailing experience, I'm not that experienced with yacht maintenance. I can tell if the boat sails well, but I don't think that I'm experienced enough to pick up on things that he might. If we see things that are deal-breakers, then the boat won't be hauled and it won't be surveyed, saving me the cost. OTOH, if the boat checks out OK, I still may get some worthwhile advice, opinions, etc... from an experienced circumnavigator on the boat.
> 
> The hat that he would be wearing during the sea trial is different that the one he would be wearing when he surveys the boat, I understand that. Given all that, do you think it may be worth $250-$300 to have him participate in the sea trial?
> 
> Dave


----------



## sailingdog

Ed's approach is pretty similar to mine...


rjcaudle said:


> Saildog,
> 
> How do you come up with a reasonable offer, not offensive to seller?
> 
> newbie


----------



## smackdaddy

See! It's always good to float old threads!

Great info. Thanks dhays.


----------



## southwindphoto

While I am new to sailing, I’ve been around boats my entire life.

A moisture meter that is readably available today will separate bad boats from your consideration list quickly. 

I’d recommend buying one of them, and checking the boat personally before spending any money.. 

In one day, I dropped 5 of 7 boats from consideration… with a moisture meter


Also.. Knowing how a boat should sail.. Does it really tell you a boat is bad, vs rigged wrong? or how that boat sails vs how you feel it should sail? just a question. like I said.. I'm new at sailing


----------



## dhays

southwindphoto said:


> Also.. Knowing how a boat should sail.. Does it really tell you a boat is bad, vs rigged wrong? or how that boat sails vs how you feel it should sail? just a question. like I said.. I'm new at sailing


I think someone with enough experience on a number of different boats, can make those determinations. There are a lot of sailors who have raced in a large number of boats who can evaluate a rig under sail and know what rigging adjustments would help and what the potential for the boat may be.

This is partly why I asked the question I did about having a surveyor go along with the sea trial. (Thanks for your answer SD) I know if a boat sails poorly, but despite a fair amount of dinghy racing experience, I'm not confident that I can tell you if it is because of poor rigging or just the poor sailing qualities of the design. A person more knowledgeable than I can do a much better job of making that determination. My broker (friends wife) has had lots of racing experience, but even so an uninterested observer could be helpful.

Dave


----------



## Sandflea

*A+ thread, glad it was bumped*

First off I want to thank all of you for making this forum a wealth of knowledge and even a source of laughter at times. I am deployed to Iraq and what downtime I have is spent reading, learning via online celestial navigation courses and researching everything sailing related I can find.

That said, I have zero real knowledge but consider myself much more aware of what I must learn to master, in part, thanks to all of you fine people. 

On to the purpose of this post; Thank You Saildog for this thread; I have read it several times over the past few months and may be utilizing the tips you and everyone else has shared upon my return stateside.

The plan is now to purchase a modest daysailer that needs some work, learn as much as I can, hands on, by restoring her myself; which I had not planned to do for 2 years, after taking some ASA courses and having at least enough experience to confidently say I can at least sail. But then it happened, while looking at listings one jumped out at me and now I am currently "looking" at a 20' sloop modestly priced and have only begun e-mail correspondence with the broker and to be honest, I was very discouraged by his vague responses to very specific questions, which I would not have known to ask, if it wasn't for you all.

I will let you all know how this first step into being a 1st time boat owner turns out, and Thank You again, everyone, for sustaining this great community.

Ben


----------



## smackdaddy

Hey flea - keep us posted on the purchase. And thanks for your service dude. Sailing is way better than eating sand....I'm told.

PS - Your avatar is a classic. Nice work.


----------



## lightlyone

So many great, welcome tips here. As a newb, these are invaluable to me. This, too, gives a good sense of the comraderie, experience, and intelligence of our members. 

One thing that largely seems to be missing in the various forum areas here and on other sailing forums are tips and general info on trailering, such as tow vehicle ratings, great trailerable boats, etc. I did find what appears to be good guidance over on the h260.com site under towning-basics.html. This kind of info seems to almost need its own forum area. But the boatloads of other info here are great and needed, no doubt, by so many shoppers and buyers.


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## rgscpat

*I go where I'm towed.*

One thing about towing that people might not think about is that the published towing capacity of a vehicle is really only a starting point. A little bit under doesn't mean you're necessarily okay. The trailer being towed, windage, wheelbase and weight distribution of the towing vehicle, tires, brake set-up, terrain and altitude, and weather will all have their say.

In general, you can get away with bumping your limit when moving a tow a few blocks to a boat ramp with moderate slope and good traction whereas you want to have a huge amount of reserve capacity for towing cross-country through mountains, weather, traffic, etc.

Overhead power poles are of course a sinister threat. Trailer tires generally need quite a lot more pressure than car tires, so check frequently. Protect tires from sun damage. And don't forget to be sure to have your hitch ball and coupler match, lock your coupler, and cross your chains. For a big cross-country trip, I could see wisdom in having pre-greased and bagged spare wheel bearings.

We once had a power outage at our lake cabin when someone towed a sailboat away from the lake -- until they encountered their first overhead powerline, which knocked the boat off the trailer.

We once know someone who tried to tow about 7500 lbs. with a 3500 lb. capacity towing vehicle. It sort of worked -- until they got to the first downhill and the trailer decided to pass them. Fortunately, the body damage that resulted was to the Cherokee and not to any people.


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## sailingdog

To add to what Pat has said about trailers-

Tandem axle trailers should have brakes on all axles, not just one. This isn't always the case, and is illegal in many states.

The towing capacity of the vehicle needs to be well above the stated weight of the trailer and boat for any serious towing. I'd also point out that many boat and trailer combinations are far heavier than the manufacturer says.

Checking your trailer and boat against a calibrated truck scale is a good idea.

Weight distributing hitches are a great thing for heavier trailers.



rgscpat said:


> One thing about towing that people might not think about is that the published towing capacity of a vehicle is really only a starting point. A little bit under doesn't mean you're necessarily okay. The trailer being towed, windage, wheelbase and weight distribution of the towing vehicle, tires, brake set-up, terrain and altitude, and weather will all have their say.
> 
> In general, you can get away with bumping your limit when moving a tow a few blocks to a boat ramp with moderate slope and good traction whereas you want to have a huge amount of reserve capacity for towing cross-country through mountains, weather, traffic, etc.
> 
> Overhead power poles are of course a sinister threat. Trailer tires generally need quite a lot more pressure than car tires, so check frequently. Protect tires from sun damage. And don't forget to be sure to have your hitch ball and coupler match, lock your coupler, and cross your chains. For a big cross-country trip, I could see wisdom in having pre-greased and bagged spare wheel bearings.
> 
> We once had a power outage at our lake cabin when someone towed a sailboat away from the lake -- until they encountered their first overhead powerline, which knocked the boat off the trailer.
> 
> We once know someone who tried to tow about 7500 lbs. with a 3500 lb. capacity towing vehicle. It sort of worked -- until they got to the first downhill and the trailer decided to pass them. Fortunately, the body damage that resulted was to the Cherokee and not to any people.


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## CatalinaFan

What is wrong with the word petcock?

Do you feel the word is evil?


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## rgscpat

*the censored orifice*

The word censoring (pet****) may have been done by a computer somewhere or may have been done by a poster who has "nanny" software on his or her computer. Some of these programs may be so sensitive and devoid of contextual knowledge that they don't allow bird watchers to talk about a titmouse, diesel mechanics to talk about a petcock, or dog breeders to discuss their best bitches. Whereas at the anarchists' website....

To try to get back on topic, how much error is there in an amateur's use of a moisture meter to look at boats, and what are there the limits of how much you can learn with a moisture meter about a boat that is in the water?


----------



## brak

rgscpat said:


> To try to get back on topic, how much error is there in an amateur's use of a moisture meter to look at boats, and what are there the limits of how much you can learn with a moisture meter about a boat that is in the water?


Error depends primarily on your experience with the meter and knowledge of material (isn't everything?). Someone who just bought whatever meter and went to use it on a first boat likely won't derive any useful information whatsoever. Someone who had used moisture meter consistently (and took time to physically inspect materials he tests) - would probably be as good (or better, as my last survey had shown  ) as anyone. It's not magic - but it does require some knowledge and experience.

You can always check the deck of a boat in the water. With cored deck and non-cored hull construction, deck is where moisture meter most useful anyway.

A good moisture meter should also be designed to ignore "surface moisture" and take readings at a small depth (to ignore any mist or run-off), and have atmospheric moisture adjustment (without that you will have different readings of the same surface on humid or dry days). Appropriate equipment is a significant part of success.


----------



## LakeSuperiorGeezer

lightlyone said:


> One thing that largely seems to be missing in the various forum areas here and on other sailing forums are tips and general info on trailering, such as tow vehicle ratings...


Go to rv.net forums. Lots of info on tow ratings and more for various vehicles.


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## mouldy

An excellent article saildog, any special tips for steel hull and decks?
Mouldy.


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## sailingdog

LSG's point about tow vehicles is a good one. Most boating forums, unless it is the Trailer Sailor's BB, don't have much information about tow vehicles or trailers for that matter. 

Mouldy--

Steel hulls and decks have special needs, since they can suffer very badly from corrosion, and repairs to them have to be done properly and the steel has to be etched and protected from water and air. Corrosion never sleeps and a lot of the steel boats in the US are home-built ones and many of the home-built ones used less than appropriate grades of steel and are far more susceptible to corrosion problems than professionally built boats. 

Another key issue for metal boats is to make sure the galvanic bonding of the through-hulls was properly done. Galvanic corrosion can be a huge issue, more so on aluminum boats than steel, but still a problem on steel boats as well. Bronze, which is commonly used for through-hulls is more noble than steel or aluminum and if the boat's zincs have been neglected will cause galvanic corrosion if they haven't been isolated from the hull. Marelon through-hulls would make much more sense on a steel or aluminum boat, as it avoids the issue of galvanic corrosion entirely. 

Also, if you do decide to go ahead with a survey, make sure your surveyor is EXPERIENCED IN STEEL BOAT CONSTRUCTION. If they aren't, there are too many things they can miss. 

BTW, I am not a big fan of steel boats. In boats under 40' LOA, it is a horribly heavy material and will generally be more tender than a fiberglass design of the same size, since the boat's center of gravity will be higher up and there will generally be less ballast. Unless you plan on going places where floating ice and such are going to be an issue, getting a steel boat doesn't make much sense IMHO. Of course, there are a few insane people, a certain fuzzy rat comes to mind, that do own steel boats.


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## oceanscapt

#31 - I measure the bunks and beds to make sure they'll fit my 6' height with a bit to spare.
#32 - I measure the cockpit seating and coaming heights. I tend to spend a lot of time in the cockpit and if I can't stretch out and get marginal back support, then I'm less interested.
#33 - Check the cockpit drains for size, hose and clamp integrity and blockage.
#34 - Run the wheel/rudder from lock to lock checking for binding. With visual access to the rudder post repeat the movement, checking for any wobble, looseness, or frayed cables.
#35 - I power up every system I can, checking that the breakers/fuses are properly labeled and function.
#36 - I open the breaker panel and look inside. A rats nest does not inspire confidence.
#37 - I check for loose items that should be secured (filters, batteries, strainers).
#38 - I pull up every floorboard, looking in the bilge for any water or problems. Deck accesses that don't come up are grounds for concern.
#39 - I sit on the toilet and and make sure there's room for me.
#40 - I look inside every locker and drawer. I'm not a perv, I just want to see what the space looks like, get an idea of the construction (or deconstruction), and make sure the locker and drawers can be properly secured.
#41 - I'll ask to see any manuals and maintenance logs. I generally get little of the former and less of the latter. Manuals are especially important if the gear is no longer in production and, to me, shows the owner kept the boat up.
#42 - I've got the listing with me and I'll annotate the sheets with model numbers, functionality, notes, and comments.
#43 - I stand behind the wheel and look forward. Does the dodger block my vision? Does the bimini rub the top of my head? Can I sit behind the wheel or move around the cockpit easily?
#44 - I sit and rest for a bit, listening, smelling, and getting the feel of the boat.
#45 - As the OP suggested, I'll download the pictures from the camera and then let what I saw, smelled, heard, and felt percolate through the gray matter. If I'm still interested then I take it to the next logical step.

I do this before I bring in the surveyors. If the boat doesn't meet my criteria or I find something that sets off warning bells, I move on. If I think this might be "the one" then I'll negotiate a price for the vessel, provide a refundable deposit and make sure the contract is to my specifications, not the sellers, not the broker(s), not some broker boilerplate; my time frame and requirements.

If the seller agrees, then I'll bring in surveyors: a general one first to make sure I've missed nothing structural; then a mechanic to check out the engine and transmission; and finally a rigger.

So far, 90% of the boats I've looked at have been in the water, so doing hull inspections comes after the surveys are done. The haul is generally done about the same time as the sea trial although I've had a separate sea trial in a couple cases.


----------



## sailingdog

All excellent point OceansCapt.

*I'd point out that you need to clarify in writing what gear and such comes with the boat. * One friend of mine bought a boat and assumed all the gear that was on the boat at the time they had done the walkthrough were part of the sale....and was rudely surprised when almost none of the required USCG gear was aboard when they went to pick up the boat.


----------



## HDChopper

Exellent thread ! Thanks SD and all others for the great input 

I am glad to see that most is common sence !


----------



## sailingdog

HDChopper said:


> Exellent thread ! Thanks SD and all others for the great input
> 
> I am glad to see that most is common sence !


Unfortunately, that's the part so many people are missing... :laugher


----------



## therapy23

HDChopper said:


> Exellent thread ! Thanks SD and all others for the great input
> 
> I am glad to see that most is common sence !


A lot of common sense disappears when one is starry-eyed and in love.

A lot.


----------



## sailingdog

therapy23 said:


> A lot of common sense disappears when one is starry-eyed and in love.
> 
> A lot.


True..but then again, some people didn't have much to start with...


----------



## rattleshirt

Very helpful, thank you, any tips specifically for dinks? I'm going to look at a Rhodes Bantam and any help would be great.


----------



## Cap't Wally

Really nice, concise, post...Thanks!


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## Arendek12

whoa... a simple post and so many responses and links. My apologies for not doing the search first, that was stupid of me. Thanks for all the pointers, though!
i know this isnt possible though the settings
but is there a back door to this?


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## Captain Flint

In reading the helpful list, what different thougts come to mind when looking at a ~30-ft boat with diesel that's been only on freshwater?


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## AKAPeterc

Very informative, god post thanks


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## tsent

Add Content


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## smaynard

Sailingdog
a big thank you. my wife and I are going to start kicking some tires in search of a sub 10 year old boat in the 40 ft. range and even though her father, a very meticulous surgeon and lifelong sailor, did not have nearly as comprehensive a list (with reasons you are doing this) to give me.
Thanks again


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## Dick6969

I am looking at a larger boat and this is going to make my mind up for me. I am going to order one tonight. This is the reason I joined Sailnet. THANK YOU...


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## LoboPops

Wished I had seen this before I went on my last window shopping. Thank you.


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## LoboPops

OK, this thread helped tremendously in many ways but is making me reconsider whether to buy a day sailor or one large enough to live on?


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## Faster

Try starting your own thread with your specific questions, I'm sure you'll get some more help.


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## Cruisingdad

LoboPops said:


> OK, this thread helped tremendously in many ways but is making me reconsider whether to buy a day sailor or one large enough to live on?


Agree with Fast. If you start a new thread, you'll get more info and feedback.

B


----------



## smresq

Very helpful.

Thanks!


----------



## dwblueblue

The boat inspection trip tips remains thoughtful, timeless advice. A good reminder of the responsibility anyone with limited resources should accept when looking for a used boat. It is also a reminder of how much time it will take. I got tired just reading it! 

I suspect few brokers expect such lengthy pre-survey inspections.

I suggest it makes sense, if you are scheduling to visit a boat, that you inform the broker or seller that your inspection will take "quite some time." Explain that you will not do any heavy handed, invasive or damaging testing (ice pick, drill, etc.), but you plan to take your time. Offer that they can surely wait or leave you with the boat and you will call them when you are finished. Otherwise, they might expect you are going to "just look it over before deciding on a survey" and after a while, start putting pressure on you to finish up. 

Even if they have nothing to hide, they may well have other things scheduled for their day. Having a clear expectation at the onset is important.


----------



## Doman83

Great post, most helpful. Do you inspect the underside if the boat is in water?


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## smackdaddy

dwblueblue said:


> The boat inspection trip tips remains thoughtful, timeless advice. A good reminder of the responsibility anyone with limited resources should accept when looking for a used boat. It is also a reminder of how much time it will take. I got tired just reading it!
> 
> I suspect few brokers expect such lengthy pre-survey inspections.
> 
> I suggest it makes sense, if you are scheduling to visit a boat, that you inform the broker or seller that your inspection will take "quite some time." Explain that you will not do any heavy handed, invasive or damaging testing (ice pick, drill, etc.), but you plan to take your time. Offer that they can surely wait or leave you with the boat and you will call them when you are finished. Otherwise, they might expect you are going to "just look it over before deciding on a survey" and after a while, start putting pressure on you to finish up.
> 
> Even if they have nothing to hide, they may well have other things scheduled for their day. Having a clear expectation at the onset is important.


That's some good advice as well.


----------



## JulieMor

Some really great tips and information here. They are going with us on our trip east, along with Don Casey's book and Marine Survey 101 tips. We're also packing super-duper surveyor tools







(we'll see how that goes) and both a still and video camera.

And when we get to Annapolis, we're going to enjoy a painkiller or two. That's something I _*KNOW*_ we can accomplish! 

Not sure which I'm looking more forward to.....


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## daledog

very good post. You did a good job explaining and describing the points. Very helpful.


----------



## Kpt. Borchardt

Very useful!


----------



## Watercolor

It sounds like a great list


----------



## Marunio

Very helpful "sticky".

I would second dwblueblue suggestion about clarifying expected time to be there. Unless a deal braker is found fairly quickly....

If the boat is in my close proximity I would make 2 trips: first to meet the owner and do a preliminary check. If the boat checks out ok I would go 2nd time clearly communicating the amount of time needed.

m


----------



## Dissident

Hello Everyone, 
I'm new to Sailnet. I've been looking at purchasing a boat, and am going to take a long drive to go and see the boat in person, all your suggestions are great for this. Thanks also for the repair receipts comment. Since I haven't seen the boat in person, just in photos, I can see that the bow looks to have been damaged and repaired. The repair looks 3 to 4 feet in length, my question is: How can I tell if the bow has been repaired properly, and that it will withstand sailing conditions?


----------



## smackdaddy

Hire a good surveyor. Definitely worth the money.


----------



## ChristinaO

Wow! I am starting to look for my first boat and your list is great! 

I had some conversations with experienced boat owners and everything they noted as a major item to look for is on your list, such as delamination and rudder issues. I was also told to watch out for models with a rudder that is lower than the keel because when the boat hits the bottom of the bay (as it will in the Barnegat Bay NJ) the rudder will take a bigger hit than the keel will. And the keel should be the one taking the hit. 

thank you so much for this list and i plan to print it for sure! 

Christina


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## CalebD

bump


----------



## caperss

Thank you for all those points to check. I had a basic idea as to what to look at but you had a lot more than I would have considered. Well done!


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## eherlihy

I've been mulling adding this one to the list for some time. All of the keel horror stories that have popped up of late have made me decide to add the following to the list.

If you are looking at an older (10+years) boat with a bolt on keel, I strongly suggest that you add language to support the following to the offer to purchase. IF the deal should get to the point of a survey, that as part of the survey that you remove and re-torque at least three of the keel bolts. 

Here is why;

When I went to look at my current boat, with the intent of purchasing, here is what the bilge looked like 









and here are the keel bolts;








Note the manual pump in the above picture... There was a "little" water in the bilge, and this pump was right here when I looked at the boat on its mooring.

















Not too bad - or so I thought...

I eventually made an offer on this boat, and when it went to survey here is what the keel looked like; 
Pre powerwash;









Post powerwash;









Something struck me as odd about the keel, and the way that it sat in relation to the hull... After much insistence to the surveyor, and the broker, and the owner, and the yard manager, the surveyor checked it out...

Sure enough, the keel was loose, and the bottom would move about ¼" from side to side. Not a lot, but enough to kill the deal.

The owner faced with this prospect wisely decided to repair the problem and go from there. He had the keel dropped, and here is what we saw;

























































Four of the seven bolts were TOAST 
The only way that this would have been caught, if I didn't make such a fuss, would be to remove, and re-torque several of the keel bolts.

The owner paid over $9500 to have this situation addressed by the yard. Better on his dime than mine, or yours!


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## JTSmith

Absolutely awesome thread. Particularly since I'm about to launch a 10-day keel kicking tour of southwest Florida. Here's my question. Since I have a dozen or so yachts to visit and given the exhaustive nature of the list, how long should it take to look at a prospective boat? And how many should I be able to effectively see in a day (given that they are all within a few miles of one another)?

Thanks for the input. 

JT


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## eherlihy

Plan to spend an hour, looking at every boat on the first pass. Do not make an offer on the spot, unless you know that it is the perfect boat and perfect deal for you. (IMHO there is no such thing, but what do I know...) 

After you have seen a couple of comparable boats, re-visit the one that you really like, and spend another hour, or two.


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## fstarocka

captbillc said:


> i have mentioned this in other threads. as a retired diesel mechanic, one of the first things i do is take off the oil filler cap. if it has water dripping from it the engine has water in the crankcase


Could one put in a pcv (positive crankcase ventilation for those who dont know) valve so the moisture could be drawn in thru the engine instead of being trapped and accumulating inside the crankcase?


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## DanBat

On inspection of a trawler recently I found this?? Port engine was a ford lehman while starboard was a perkins.....! 

Never have seen this before. So what do you think about dollar value of this boat?


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## Slayer

Sailingdog, I know this was posted some time ago, but this is a great thread and I want to thank you.


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## eherlihy

Glad to read that you enjoy the thread. However as an FYI - SD hasn't been here for well over a year. 

Also, after the sh!t that some here gave him when Maine Sail told us that SD's boat, named after his deceased wife, went up in flames last year, I seriously doubt that he'll ever be back.


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## wbjr

*keel bolt inspectio*

Is it proper to unscrew bilge covers to inspect keel bolts? I have the boat narrowed to one. The surveyor did not unscrew the bilge covers. I would like to do so in wrapping up the transaction.


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## miatapaul

*Re: keel bolt inspectio*



wbjr said:


> Is it proper to unscrew bilge covers to inspect keel bolts? I have the boat narrowed to one. The surveyor did not unscrew the bilge covers. I would like to do so in wrapping up the transaction.


Well really you should have just grabbed a screwdriver and opened it yourself for him, though I have never seen any covers that needed to be "unscrewed" other than a quick release type screw and that the surveyor should have done that. They are not supposed to remove any permanently attached panels or cabinets, but I don't think that means "bilge covers" seems he may be taking a bit too literal interpretation of not unscrewing things. It means there is no "destructive" inspections, or where there is risk of damaging something by unscrewing it, I can't imagine if the bilge covers were screwed down that he would not ask the owner, the broker or at least you (at least you and the broker should have been present) to unscrew the covers if he was really unwilling to do it himself. I think I would be refusing to unscrew my wallet to pay for a survey where he did not check the keel bolts on a boat I was looking at.


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## davidpm

eherlihy said:


> Sure enough, the keel was loose, and the bottom would move about ¼" from side to side. Not a lot, but enough to kill the deal.


How did they determine that the keel was loose.


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## wbjr

The owner agreed to unscrew the panels. This worked out well. Thank you. I am now under contract.


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## Southbound Irish

following


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## eherlihy

davidpm said:


> How did they determine that the keel was loose.


He pushed it from the starboard side toward port while the boat was in the slings. The keel moved, while the boat didn't.


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## boatpoker

*Re: keel bolt inspectio*



miatapaul said:


> Well really you should have just grabbed a screwdriver and opened it yourself for him, though I have never seen any covers that needed to be "unscrewed" other than a quick release type screw and that the surveyor should have done that. They are not supposed to remove any permanently attached panels or cabinets, but I don't think that means "bilge covers" seems he may be taking a bit too literal interpretation of not unscrewing things. It means there is no "destructive" inspections, or where there is risk of damaging something by unscrewing it, I can't imagine if the bilge covers were screwed down that he would not ask the owner, the broker or at least you (at least you and the broker should have been present) to unscrew the covers if he was really unwilling to do it himself. I think I would be refusing to unscrew my wallet to pay for a survey where he did not check the keel bolts on a boat I was looking at.


Many "bilge covers" are teak/holly plywood and often with multiple coats of varnish over the dozens of screws. Removing those screws will often damage the veneer and the surveyor will often be blamed and expected to pay for new panels. I specify to all clients that all panels/covers/hatches that need to be removed for inspection should be removed before I arrive. I will not remove such fasteners as the seller will often be ticked off with me because I found stuff he did not want found and will be looking for a little pay back.


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## NJ Mc Call

Excellent Thread!

Great Job by Saildog. Sad that he lost his boat, his effort created a thread with diverse comments.

I had a GIANT Dah moment. Contrary to those that live in the lower 48 there are fewer than 25 vessels under $150,000 that I could see without a plane trip. To get to a area with some vessels to look at would require in excess of $1000 air fare hotel rental car. It makes a no brainer to have a survey first. very lively discussion that made me think.

Thank to all for questions and those that replied.


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## Davenier

Excellent thread!

Learned numerous things. Also got several books on my xmas wish list. Got to prepare for next summer!


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## Whiskymac

Thanks, got it printed out


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## SailRN

Thanks for sharing this. My first boat purchase is a disaster. I'm hoping for another boat and considering one in the Savannah, GA area. Is there anyone recommended that will do an inexpensive "drive-by" to determine if further investigation is warranted?
Thanks,


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## Capn Jimbo

Curm said:


> I'm an experienced business lawyer. I understand contingencies in a P&S.
> 
> No matter. It's not worth the effort to enter into protracted price negotiations after a survey has revealed significant defects in a boat.
> You are paying for the survey in either case, aren't you?
> 
> If you think enough of the boat to seriously consider an offer, a survey before making the offer costs you nothing, since once you make the offer, you are committed to hiring a surveyor anyway.
> 
> Also, getting the survey up front allows me to take all of the significant defects into account up front. If I still like the boat enough to make an offer, I will make the appropriate price adjustments then. I'm not going to get stuck with an uncompensated problem in any event.
> 
> That's the way its done in business-- a non bindling letter of intent followed by due diligence, and if the diligence is acceptable, then a P&S with appropriate closing conditions. The residential real estate model, where the P&S is signed first, is far too advantageous for the seller, for whom the brokers work (as do yacht brokers).


I could not disagree more with these posts, but thanks to the posters for expressing their view. My unequivocal position are these...

1. There is no justification whatsoever to survey first, offer later. Way too many of us have had a really nice boat at a nice price sold to the next buyer to walk in the door. The seller has no obligation to hold or sell the boat to you. BIG mistake.

The idea is to tie up the buyer pending survey and sea trial, and even after to allow a counter.

2. Most brokers use pretty much similar purchase offer and sale docs, with minor variation. ALL of them favor the buyer (just as in real estate). Post survey - and at the only the buyer's complete discretion - the BUYER can kill the deal (or make a counter offer) for any reason whatever (and which does NOT have to be stated).

Remember, none of these contracts are chiseled in stone. There is NO standard deposit, and you have every right (and should) make a minimum deposit - even $1. After all it is you - the buyer - that will be spending upwards of $600 or $700 for a survey. It's not a bad idea to insist that the seller pay for the lift, and many contracts make that so.

Bottom Line: only a purchase offer and sale ties up the buyer completely, while you - the buyer - can extract at any time, for no good reason. It would be the height of foolishness to pay $700 for a survey, just to inform the seller who can sell the boat to anyone else before the ink is dry.

Always insist on a P&S. Make only a token or minimal down payment (keep in mind that brokers are NOT to be trusted as escrow agents, and do NOT offer title insurance. Brokers even do a half-arsed job of the title search (more on this later).

Your witness...


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## Capn Jimbo

Great thread! I would add the following from my personal experience:

1. Great inspection tips on the first page. I would add only the great value of purchasing Don Casey's "Inspecting the Aging Sailboat". He covers a complete and detailed inspection you can learn, but also provides a "30 minute quick inspection". Of the latter he states that the 30 minute inspection can quickly eliminate boats that don't even deserve a complete self-inspection, and definitely don't warrant a survey.

2. Using a combination of the OP's tips, and Don's 30 minute method, I can't tell you how many boats I was able to eliminate quickly, with no further waste of time or money. I found that Florida is rife with junk boats that pass the 30 foot rule (looks good from 30 ft away or in misleading photos). Broker's rep so many boats, they really don't know what they are showing. Example: found one with an inch of oil below the motor, and the broker didn't have a clue. Another had to be shown a huge wet area near the bow was fixed with bondo! I'm serious. Another was surprised when I showed him rotted shoulders around a chainplate.

They rarely know the boat.

3. I carry a small canvas bag with a couple of mini hi-intensity flashlights (one for me, one for my fiance), extendible combination magnet/light, a magnet, magnifying glass, some rubbing compound, couple of cloths, pocket knife, cheapo moisture meter, center punch or pointed tool (even a sharp nail), and a nylon headed tapping hammer.

Some tips:

1. You don't need a $300 analog meter. They are really no more accurate, and you are looking for relative changes anyway. I bought a refurbed Ryobi for around $35 and after examining over 50 boats, I KNOW it works.

2. The Ryobi has 4 settings (softwood, drywall, concrete, hardwood). I found the hardwood setting closely approximates the Electro anyway, shows from about 5-15% for dry areas. Anything over 20% is of concern, in the mid 20's to 30% is awful.

3. I start at the bow, and work back both sides, checking all fittings, stanchion bases, chainplates, mast base, below the portlights, etc. Anyplace there are holes in the deck. Look for silicon sealant (a cheap fix, usually too late). Before you start, check the top or back of the cabin - usually dry - to establish a baseline. If you see a 10 or 15 point jump near the fitting, walk.

Then use your nylon headed hammer (Harbor Freight has a good one - size of a regular hammer, with rounded cone on one side, full round on the other) to tap, tap from a dry area to the high meter reading and listen. You'll soon develop an ear. Still the meter is my primary tool for moisture.

4. Harbor Freight also sells a cheap battery tester (tests load, charge, charging level etc) for around $20.

5. Some key phone questions - before I even waste 30 minutes and driving time include: survey? age/condition of sails/standing rigging? maintenance log and receipts? blisters and treatment? delamination or soft spots? age/hours/model of engine? last time fittings were rebedded?

And this one: what does this boat need to put it back in not average, but good condition and ready for extended cruising? What will it need in the next 6 months? Year?

If the seller doesn't know, or hedges you may not want to bother, or do so only if you're seeing another nearby boat.

*Summary:*

Trust me - you will be shocked at how quickly and effectively you can perform a good screening analysis, that will eliminate many boats and save you TONS of time. It's quite possible to check out 3 or 4 boats in a day, to find the one of serious further interest.

You will also find that sellers and brokers will be properly intimidated, when they sense that you know what you are doing.


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## darknesscrown

I'm a newbie just trying to learn what to look for and how to actually go about buying a boat and stumbled across this post within the first minute of starting an account. Well done. This is excellent info. A lot of common sense, but I can tell you put a lot of thought into it.  Thanks.


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## Minnewaska

Kind of funny to read the original post made in 2008, about a year after the release of the first generation iPhone. Today, I don't think I need a separate voice recorder, notebook, camera and flashlight and I can take a video walking up for that first impression.


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