# I hate boats...



## MedSailor

Yesterday was supposed to be a happy day. After three months in the yard repairing $14,000 worth of damage caused by the Florida riggers Mack Sails who decommissioned my new boat for transport, we finally were launched into the water. Finally, nearly 4 months after buying the boat, and after insurance battles and months in the yard, we could finally put our first mile under the keel.

Then, the email from the yard. The engine won't start. No big deal, probably a dead battery right? Then, the next email, *the engine is seized. *

 --->  --->  --->  ---> uke

How is that possible? The engine surveyed well, the engine ran in Florida, and 3 months ago when I went in the water from the truck, the engine ran just fine. The yard did no work in, or around the engine. Surely it's not really seized.... I go down to the boat, and indeed, the sound of the starter trying to engage, the good voltage at the batteries etc indicate it sure sounds like it's seized. Then I pull the dipstick.

 --->  --->  --->  ---> uke

The dipstick reads grossly over full. Probably 3-5 times full. The color is greyish, brownish, not fully transparent and smells like kerosene. It's not cooking oil color, and it's not black. Worst part? The last 1.5 inches of the dipstick are blatantly rusty. I then pulled a sample of oil from the bottom of the engine.










That's not a frappuccino kids. That's what came out of the engine oil pan. Clearly it separated quickly and it doesn't look like coolant at the bottom. Since it separated so quickly, it's not likely to be diesel. I'm thinking based on it's color, the fact that it separated and the rust on the bottom of the dipstick that it's likely seawater. Peering into the top of the engine I can see the valves look rusty and when I run my finger over the valves at the top, I get a gritty rusty oily stuff on my fingers.

The yard suggested that water that was in the engine exhaust could have migrated up through the exhaust circuit and gotten in the engine during the bumps along the road in the 5,000mile road trip. I don't see how that could be possible because *I ran the engine for 5 minutes at the slip the day after I was unloaded from the truck*. If water from the exhaust got into the cylinders it wouldn't have started or ran, correct?

Another thought is a survey finding from the pre-purchase survey. I was told the oil coolers were bad (one for the engine, one for the tranny) and were due for replacement. Could the engine oil cooler have failed while sitting in the yard? Seems unlikely....

I'm not sure where else to look, or what to think. The engine surveyed well except for the above mentioned oil coolers finding and the finding that all the hoses were soft, squishy and due for replacement. The engine is a Ford Lehman 90HP 1985 naturally aspirated 4 cyl diesel with 1450 hours, and the boat is a 1985 Nauticat 40. Again, the yard did no engine work (though they did replace a cutlass bearing) and I can't imagine how this could be the yard's fault, though on the other hand, I gave them a boat with a working engine and I got back an engine that is seized.

I will know more on monday when the mechanics look at it. I really want to pull the injectors and valve cover right now and change the oil 10 times, but I am going to wait for the yard to look at it.

Thoughts? Maybe by next summer I'll actually have a functioning boat again...

MedSailor


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## brokesailor

So sorry bro! Was the boat at a slip?


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## dvuyxx

Sorry to hear. Hopefully it's not as bad as it seems.


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## T37Chef

Oh man...that sucks rocks big time...sorry!


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## capta

That is terrible, I am so sorry. I've been following your adventure and was hoping for a better launch day.
It's probably way too late, but if you empty what's in the pan and fill the cylinders, dowse the upper end and fill the oil pan with diesel, it might ease dismantling it. Even if you got it to turn over now, you still are going to need bearings and rings at the least. If you want to sail her down here, I'll help you with the rebuild.
Sorry again.


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## MedSailor

Thanks for the offer capta. You're a long way from Anacortes though. I bought the boat in Florida and trucked her over here. 

The boat hadn't been at a slip but had been in the yard which makes this really strange.

Also if the oil cooler went, the engine shouldn't be hydro locked right? Can you hydro lock an engine by grossly over filling a crankcase?

Damage wise i know saltwater in the oil and perhaps in the cylenders is.... um.... not good. What am i likely looking at for damage? Rings and bearings? What would have happened to them? 

The damn engine was barely broken in.....

Medsailor


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## Maine Sail

Was the engine winterized? Did anyone run it on the hard connected to a garden hose? Was an in/out bucket located above the siphon break at any point?

If the oil cooler leaked it could have allowed sea water into the oil and over filled it


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## MarkofSeaLife

These small problems often look insurmountable at first.

Its impossible to determine whats gone wrong and what neds to be done. So just relax and plan things for monday. One of the most important things is not to believe a damn word any mechanic says, especially when they shake their head and start counting prices on both hands. It can take several opinions before the truth be known. So don't just jump with what the first guy says. Get his ideas and then check them with us (or the people here that know somit about the thing under the stairs). Don't go sign your life away on Monday!

Now let me speculate  the oil cooler can corrode galvonicaly and some even have zincs in them. Thas an easy way to get water into your oil. Also its an easy fix. Those oil coorers can be opened, cleaned, renewed, resoldered etc for about $100. Its not expensive. Its done by a car radiator shop 

As for the seizing... Well, I wouldnt know. But a good mechanics kick in the right place may unseize it... Then you do the oil change ingy a few times and sail off into the night. I.e. You may not need to pull it down.

So just be wary of the guy who looks sorrowfully at it and asks for a few thousand dollars... Get a second opinion, and maybe a third.

Good luck! 


Mark


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## Faster

So sorry to hear this, Med.. and of the earlier issues too, must have missed that part over the summer.

Hope it's not as bad as it sounds.


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## MedSailor

Faster, you didn't miss anything. I optdd for radio silence while i figured out what to do. I thought there was a fair chance that i would sue Mack Sails over the incident. As it turned out my insurance was willing to pay and they are now suing them so i don't need to be quite as tight lipped. Suffice to say they messed up tge boat pretty bad and its taken 3 months to get her back to the condition i bought her in.

Now let me give everyone the sequence of events for troubleshooting purposes:

1.The boat sat in florida for sale for about 4 years with very light use. 

2. In june we took the boat for a trial sail and survey. Everything went well. Ok at WOT. Oil sample came back good excepr high copper (from sitting idle) and the engine surveyed wrll except fot all the hoses being old and the iol coolers needed to be changed. Our surveyors btw were flown out by us and have owned a diesel repair business for 40 years.

3. The boat was trucked from florida to Washington and arrived july 3. Nothing was done to the engine in prep for transportation. The ride was smooth and even lamps that were left standing were still upright on arrival.

4. Boat was yaken from tbe truck to the water. I started the engine and ran it for 5-10min.

5. Realized the boat was way too fubared by the riggers and the boat was pilled and put on the hard. Total time in the water in Washington; 5 days.

6. Yard fixed the steering pedistal, electronics, and masts were stepoed. No engine work was done. The cutlads bearing was replaced and the bottom painted.

7. They launched the boat. Checked the bilge pymps were 
Working and attempted to start the engine and it wouldnt crank. They put a wrench to the flywheel and determined it was seized at 4:50pm on Friday.

8. I went to the boat and tried to start it. I didn't try and turn the flywheel. I pulled the oil sample.

That's the story to date.

Medsailor

Ps. Apologies for the typos. wrote this post from a mobile gadget.


.


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## MarkofSeaLife

Florida to Washington _State_.

Oh.

Dunno where the water came from. It doesn't rain much in between.


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## Bob142

I'm with the don't panic crowd...engine maybe stuck rather then siezed...by putting a wrench on the front of the crankshaft or by pulling the starter and using a bar on the ring gear it may be unstuck...if this is the case then a good flushing and fresh oil may be all that you need...bearings that have been sitting in water have been compromised but it comes down to how much...they may need changed or they may just shorten engine life by a small amount...This can usually be determined by how much your oil pressure drops from what it was before...situation sucks but not life threatening...good luck...


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## jrd22

Sorry to hear of the engine problems Med. I'm guessing that the oil cooler(s) came apart internally due to vibration during the trip and when you ran it for a few minutes it pumped sea water into the oil. Hard to know what all will need to be done, sounds like crank bearings will need to be replaced at a minimum.
Good luck, you'll get through this.


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## Capt Len

Not good but bet not enough time went by to do real corrosion. Pull injectors and filter,drain and flush pan, fill with diesel ( plus a dollop in each cylinder),get it turning over, (put old blanket over the engine to catch the spurt) do it again .Refill filter and pan. Meanwhile determine what failed and fix. You know that thread about closing thru hulls? Maybe time to look at plumbing from inlet to anti syphon to pump to heat ex to riser. Oil and tranni ex 'S should be on fresh water side.


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## Minnewaska

That really sucks, Med. Sorry for the trouble. Oil cooler seems to be the most likely bet.


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## TomMaine

If the oil cooler failed, wouldn't it mix coolant and engine oil? My oil cooler is in the fresh water circuit.


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## guitarguy56

Think on positive side... You can always sulk away the pain in the hot steamy sauna.


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## JonEisberg

One other positive, that Ford Lehman is about as tough and as close to bulletproof as they come, just the sort of engine I'd want to have if dealing with a situation like this... 

Really sorry to hear this Med, that's a weird one indeed, best of luck getting it all sorted out...


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## Maine Sail

TomMaine said:


> If the oil cooler failed, wouldn't it mix coolant and engine oil? My oil cooler is in the fresh water circuit.


Depends on the engine, some oil & gear coolers are in the RW circuit. On every Ford Lehman I've worked on the oil cooler is in the RW circuit...


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## copacabana

Sorry to hear about your troubles on the new boat Med. Best of luck with sorting them out. Hopefully it's not as bad as it seems.


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## MikeOReilly

Really sorry to hear your tale of woe Med. I've benefited from the wisdom here so I won't pretend to offer any advice, but I really hope you can sort this out with minimal additional anguish. 

It's not boats I hate, but the damn engines. 


Why go fast, when you can go slow


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## TQA

I don't see any way round a total strip of the engine. The good news is the the Ford 4D engine that is the base for the Lehman conversion is a big solid cast iron lump with good spares availability from these guys http://www.americandieselcorp.com/

There are a few guys around who do rebuilds, Mr Google will find them.

Assuming the engine is rebuildable and it should be then you have to find out how the water got in there. The usual suspects are, oil cooler and exhaust syphon. Track the cause down and fix it. From the survey the oil cooler is your prime suspect.

I hope for your sake your engine can come out without too much internal woodwork dismantling. Mine can't.

Ya gotta bite the bullet and get the lump out.


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## Faster

Just occurred to me - could the 'seizure' simply be hydrolocked?.. pulling the injectors (or releasing the compression lever if available) and giving it a go with a big wrench might prove that.. or has that already been tried?


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## djodenda

What if the engine wouldn't start after it was splashed after the yard...
The yard cranked and cranked without the engine starting, and failed to shut off the raw water intake..
The water backed up from the waterlift muffler into the engine?
Engine stopped cranking after the engine filled with water
Assumption was made that battery was dead
Everybody went home...

I don't like to suggest that the yard is hiding something, but these things happen..


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## bobperry

Holy cow Med!
That's a real mystery. When you get it worked out come on up, tie to my mooring and I'll make you a nice dinner and we can look back and chuckle over it.


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## MedSailor

bobperry said:


> Holy cow Med!
> That's a real mystery. When you get it worked out come on up, tie to my mooring and I'll make you a nice dinner and we can look back and chuckle over it.


It's a deal! I promise to leave the whine at home, but to bring some good wine. And if you row out to the boat, we can relax in the sauna. I bet that even Bob Perry, with all the playing around on boats he's done, hasn't basked in a sauna aboard a boat at anchor. 

MedSailor


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## MedSailor

Faster said:


> Just occurred to me - could the 'seizure' simply be hydrolocked?.. pulling the injectors (or releasing the compression lever if available) and giving it a go with a big wrench might prove that.. or has that already been tried?


I'm probably using the term incorrectly. I was assuming that a hydrolock is a type of engine seizure. I'm hoping that once we pull the injectors, drain the oil, and turn her over she'll barf out whatever evil humors are in the cylinders and will run.

That's what I'm hoping, I just don't know what to expect from all the rust and such. Are the rings going to be so blow out that she might be at risk of running away, or is she now only good for 10K hours instead of 15K?

Monday the yard will pull the injectors and/or the head and I hope to know a lot more tomorrow. For now, I wait and don't know much.

The idea that the yard cranked and cranked and caused the problem did occur to me. My gut tells me that these are honest guys though. That aside, there is rust on the valves and there was lots of rust at the bottom of the dipstick, and that couldn't happen immediately after flooding the engine with water. That takes some time.

I wonder if any of this is covered by insurance? If it is a result of transportation it may well be covered. Even the oil cooler breaching would be much more likely to happen from vibration on a 5,000mile trip than while sitting idly in the yard.

MedSailor


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## MrA

Faster said:


> Just occurred to me - could the 'seizure' simply be hydrolocked?.. pulling the injectors (or releasing the compression lever if available) and giving it a go with a big wrench might prove that.. or has that already been tried?


you were reading my mine, I was just glancing at the replies looking for hydrolock if I didn't see that symptom mentioned I was going to suggest it...you beat me to it. I bought some flood cars that had cylinders full of water, the starter can't overcome the situation, real hard to cycle engine thru with a wrench. I suck the water out with a vacuum and small hose that would fit where the glow-plugs are, introduce denatured alcohol, squirt of transmission fluid wait a couple of days and put a wrench to the pulley, worked every time. You have water in the crankcase. is it salt? or fresh? and how did it get there? Thru the head or intake or???


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## MedSailor

MrA said:


> you were reading my mine, I was just glancing at the replies looking for hydrolock if I didn't see that symptom mentioned I was going to suggest it...you beat me to it. I bought some flood cars that had cylinders full of water, the starter can't overcome the situation, real hard to cycle engine thru with a wrench. I suck the water out with a vacuum and small hose that would fit where the glow-plugs are, introduce denatured alcohol, squirt of transmission fluid wait a couple of days and put a wrench to the pulley, worked every time. *You have water in the crankcase. is it salt? or fresh? and how did it get there? Thru the head or intake?*


That's the question....

I have a question for you about this hydrolocking thing. Is it possible to hydrolock the engine by overfilling the crankcase? ie can you put so much fluid in the crankcase that the cylinders can't travel downward?

If not, if the only way to hydrolock the engine is for water to be present inside the cylinders than it can't be my oil cooler can it? That would allow water into the oil, but wouldn't allow water into the cylinders would it?

I'm also thinking that all the rust on the valve covers speaks to exhaust water backflooding the engine as a more likely possibility. It's also been suggested that the head gasket blew, but to blow a head gasket by running the engine for 5 minutes or less at the dock, immediately after a good survey, seems highly unlikely.

MedSailor


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## capta

A hydrolock is when a cylinder with both valves closed is full of water. Water is not compressible in this situation. As you say, it's unlikely that the oil cooler would get water to the rocker arms and valves; it would most likely drain down to the pan. I think it unlikely that you could fill the pan sufficiently to prevent the pistons from moving, and most diesels do not have sealed sumps.
The only thing I can think of was that this happened in the slings, or the boat was blocked so that any water in the exhaust system ran back into the engine, or the anti-siphon valve failed when you shut down last, allowing the water to run back into the head. We did have that happen about 4 times before we figured it out. Our Groco vented loops are the highest maintenance item in the engine room. Hate them.


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## MrA

MedSailor said:


> That's the question....
> 
> I have a question for you about this hydrolocking thing. Is it possible to hydrolock the engine by overfilling the crankcase? ie can you put so much fluid in the crankcase that the cylinders can't travel downward?
> 
> If not, if the only way to hydrolock the engine is for water to be present inside the cylinders than it can't be my oil cooler can it? That would allow water into the oil, but wouldn't allow water into the cylinders would it?
> 
> I'm also thinking that all the rust on the valve covers speaks to exhaust water backflooding the engine as a more likely possibility. It's also been suggested that the head gasket blew, but to blow a head gasket by running the engine for 5 minutes or less at the dock, immediately after a good survey, seems highly unlikely.
> 
> MedSailor


yes to the first question...the oil cooler will not introduce water into the cylinders, oil cooler is usually inline with the oil filter...your engine got wet, sounds like inside and out, water makes rust. I had a Pontiac grand am, I was out of town it was parked at my daughters, her street flooded and the car got wet, she drove it back to my house and parked it, when I got home engine didn't sound right, checked the oil there was about 2 qtrs. of water in the crankcase, I drain it and drove the car another 100K miles. Your rust is just surface rust, really nothing to worry about, WD40, that's Water Displacement 40th try.


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## djodenda

Med:

I forgot to say:

"I'm really sorry this happened. A Nauticat 40, with or without a sauna will be a great, comfortable boat in the PNW. One day this will all be a (bad) dream.. I hope to see her next time I am in your neighborhood"

David


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## Chas H

MedSailor said:


> Is it possible to hydrolock the engine by overfilling the crankcase? ie can you put so much fluid in the crankcase that the cylinders can't travel downward?
> MedSailor


Yes, hydrolock could occur due to an overfilled crankcase. A piston going up or down needs to displace or compress the air in it's path. Water may have syphoned in through the oil cooler or through the exhaust past the piston rings filling the crankcase preventing piston movement.

My guess is through the oil cooler.
-CH


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## MedSailor

Chas H said:


> Yes, hydrolock could occur due to an overfilled crankcase. A piston going up or down needs to displace or compress the air in it's path. Water may have syphoned in through the oil cooler or through the exhaust past the piston rings filling the crankcase preventing piston movement.
> 
> My guess is through the oil cooler.
> -CH


I'm not visualizing this.... Oil usually doesn't get into the cylinders, so how would my new oil/seawater mix get in and fill them up? Better yet, since oil circulation happens by way of the oil pump, even if this was possible, surely my hydrolock would have to have caused a traumatic engine shutdown while it was running....

How can we test our theories? Pull the oil coolers and pressure test them?

Also, about the rust, there's no rust or evidence of high water on the outside of the engine. The rust I mentioned was on the bottom of the dipstick, likely where the stick was dipping into saltwater.

MedSailor


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## MrA

MedSailor said:


> I'm not visualizing this.... Oil usually doesn't get into the cylinders, so how would my new oil/seawater mix get in and fill them up? Better yet, since oil circulation happens by way of the oil pump, even if this was possible, surely my hydrolock would have to have caused a traumatic engine shutdown while it was running....
> 
> How can we test our theories? Pull the oil coolers and pressure test them?
> 
> Also, about the rust, there's no rust or evidence of high water on the outside of the engine. The rust I mentioned was on the bottom of the dipstick, likely where the stick was dipping into saltwater.
> 
> MedSailor


If the engine was running and your introduced water into the cylinder's you would bend a rod or put the rod thru the block. nobody said oil was in the cylinders it would only be water. 1st thing you need to do is change the oil...then carefully pull the glow-plugs and see if she will crank. too reiterate you could have water in your cylinders or water in the crankcase or both, I can't see an engine seizing in such a short amount of time


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## JonEisberg

MikeOReilly said:


> It's not boats I hate, but the damn engines.


Well, I suggest you start learning to love yours, you're gonna be stuck with it for awhile... 

I wish other things in life could be as dependable as a properly installed and meticulously maintained non-turbocharged diesel that doesn't suffer the sort of abuse many sailors subject theirs to... There's just no valid reason for cruising sailors to have to develop the sort of Love/Hate relationship with their powertrains that have become so commonplace...

I certainly have not been immune to issues with my own engines over the years, but in virtually every instance it's been my own damn fault...


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## Chas H

If oil entered a cylinder(s) (which I doubt) it may have been forced up past the piston rings as the oil sump filled. Possibly water entered a cylinder through the exhaust. Which I also doubt. Water may have begun to enter the oil sump through a leaking oil cooler when you ran the engine after the 5k trip from FL and siphoned in after shutdown through the oil cooler. (I'm jsut speculating of course.) Then after attempting to start later the hydro-lock was waiting to happen during attempted restart.

I'm assuming a heat exchanger oil cooler using raw water.

I'd also hope (I may be dreaming) that residual oil on the bearings somewhat protected them from corrosion from seawater.

If you do attempt to run the engine after several oil changes a compression test might be a good idea to give info of engine condition.

Now I can wait to see if my thinking is BS or has merit.

I wish you the best (mechanics).
-CH


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## bljones

MedSailor said:


> ...and if you row out to the boat, we can relax in the sauna. I bet that even Bob Perry, with all the playing around on boats he's done, hasn't basked in a sauna aboard a boat at anchor.
> 
> MedSailor







All banter aside, sorry to hear of your woes- monday will tell the tale, and i hope for an outcome with as little damage as possible, to both engine and bank account.


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## Wayne000001

oil floats. Water would be on bottom of dip stick, however it got there.


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## Bob142

I disagree about an overfilled crankcase being able to stop the piston... as the piston comes down it would force the oil or water out the dipstick tube and make a big mess ...


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## sailhog

Seizing isn't necessarily the end of the road for an engine. Markofsealife has the right attitude. My engine was seized five years ago after a year of dry dock. Popped the head, doused cylinder heads with ATP, tapped them with a small sledge against a wooden mallet and the cylinders became unseized. Be gentle... Definitely not the end of the world...


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## jimgo

Med, I've been gone for a bit, just saw this. Good luck tomorrow; I hope it's a simple and inexpensive fix.


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## Capt Len

Most likely source of hydrolocking a piston is thru the open exhaust valve from a filled riser from the failed anti syphon and open thruhull. Unless there is a visible high water line thruout the boat this is a local internal situation. Rings are stuck if it's reluctant to turn after injecters are out. (the rocker arm assembly may be tapped with rubber mallet if it's been wet to the top for long time)While we wait for feedback from Med,can we discuss the merits of plumbing secondary heat ex's with salt water. One reason I can think of from experience is that the smaller tubes easily clog up with bits of bark and stuff that got thru screens ,enabling the owner to charter a float plane to fly me up the coast to fix .I'd like to hear of other reasons why it's a good idea


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## MedSailor

jimgo said:


> Med, I've been gone for a bit, just saw this. Good luck tomorrow; I hope it's a simple and inexpensive fix.


Jimgo, nice to hear from you. I've been thinking about you the last couple days. As i recall the honeymoon with your new boat was very short lived as well.

Medsailor


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## MedSailor

MikeOReilly said:


> It's not boats I hate, but the damn engines.


I don't hate marine diesels at all! (Though they may very well hate me). Hell I'm a closet power boater who bought a MOTORsailor that holds 220 gallons of gas!

I thought i was getting competent with the mechanics of them and knew how ti stay out of trouble with them but this totally bkindsided me. I'm scratching my head trying to find the bonehead move. Thete has to be one right? Lehmans by reputation don't just $hit the bed for no reason.

I look forward to the mechanical CSI a tomorrow.

Medsailor


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## davidpm

Bob142 said:


> I disagree about an overfilled crankcase being able to stop the piston... as the piston comes down it would force the oil or water out the dipstick tube and make a big mess ...


That has been my experience. I was on a delivery and the cap over filled the engine and it soaked the engine room.


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## davidpm

sailhog said:


> Seizing isn't necessarily the end of the road for an engine. Markofsealife has the right attitude. My engine was seized five years ago after a year of dry dock. Popped the head, doused cylinder heads with ATP, tapped them with a small sledge against a wooden mallet and the cylinders became unseized. Be gentle... Definitely not the end of the world...


I had a student who overheated his Universal so hot it stopped. Waited till it cooled down, opened the raw water valve and started the engine up again.


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## jimgo

MedSailor said:


> Jimgo, nice to hear from you. I've been thinking about you the last couple days. As i recall the honeymoon with your new boat was very short lived as well.
> 
> Medsailor


Honeymoon? I never got a honeymoon! LOL Actually, kind of like in your case, my engine troubles started the day she came into my possession.

I read your post to my wife earlier this evening. We were both stunned, and felt bad for you, but in the perverse way that you can probably appreciate, we also took some comfort in the fact that SOMEONE else has our luck. In case it wasn't clear - I'm sorry it had to be you. You've always been one of the good guys, and it sucks to see stuff like this happen to one of the good guys.


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## MedSailor

Yeah my honeymoon so far has involved 2 trips in travel lift. 5min of engine time. Zero miles of voyaging and 15k in money spent on repairs with a LOT more to come.

She's playing hard to get methinks.... 

Medsailor


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## aeventyr60

" She's playing hard to get methinks.... "

Just wait til you get her out on the dance floor. Good luck!


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## MedSailor

Here is Friday's sample after sitting for a while. Definitely doesn't like coolant. Fresh water seems highly unlikely. It's gotta be salt water...










Medsailor


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## Skipper Jer

MedSailor said:


> Here is Friday's sample after sitting for a while. Definitely doesn't like coolant. Fresh water seems highly unlikely. It's gotta be salt water...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Medsailor


Taste the water.


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## MedSailor

Captainmeme said:


> Taste the water.


Bitter. It tastes very bitter.

MedSailor


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## Faster

Nice 'product placement'!  ... though I doubt Starbucks is going to want to give you any money for that picture!!.


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## MedSailor

So here's the update from the mechanics at the yard. 

They pulled the injectors and there was no water in the cylinders. The tried to turn it over with the injectors out, and she wouldn't turn. She IS seized. They then pulled the oil cooler and bench tested it and it's leaking. Rust is everywhere inside the engine and they're saying complete rebuild at best, but more likely a new engine is needed. 

It looks like the story of what happened is this:

1. The engine was surveyed in Florida (with me present) and the engine ran well at the time of the sea trial. An oil sample was taken and the oil tested good. 

2. The boat was immediately lifted out of the water in Florida and put in the yard to await trucking. The engine was started to move it from a travel lift waiting area to the travel lift which was only 100 yards or so of motoring.

3: The boat was trucked from Florida to Washington State.

4: The boat was taken directly from the truck to the water where I ran the engine for 5 minutes to verify that the engine functioned upon receipt of the vessel. At this time the oil cooler had likely failed (my guess is from vibration during transport) and this 5 minutes of running was long enough to circulate seawater throughout the engine, but wasn't long enough to over heat the engine and alert me to the problem. 

5: We realized the size and scope of the pedestal, teak and other damage and opted to be hauled in the yard for repairs. 

6: Insurance was contacted, survey done, and the repairs were conducted over the last 3 months. No engine work was done by the yard, so they could not have damaged it.

7: The boat was put in the water and the motor was found to be seized and internally rusted. The initial assessment is that I will likely require a complete rebuild, or more likely a new engine all together. 

I think that the survey and oil sample in Florida should help us prove the case that the boat was functioning with good oil in Florida and arrived in a damaged condition. Our hour meter should only have a few minutes more on it now than when it was surveyed and the oil sample taken. So, I'm hopeful that insurance will see that it was in good shape when it left Florida, and it arrived in a compromised condition, therefore it should be covered by insurance as damage sustained while trucking. 

At least, that's what I hope. A new engine is something like 25-30K..... 

Now, where did I put the rum? 

MedSailor


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## MarkofSeaLife

Get different mechanics to have a look.


Mark


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## djodenda

Your scenario makes sense, Med. 
Sorry, man.


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## Minnewaska

Not exactly sure how vibration would cause an oil cooler failure like this. Was it corroded? Do you have consequential damage coverage? Insurance companies love to deny coverage due to corrosion, it's often specifically excluded. 

Press the insurance company hard. However, the best you'll likely do is to get a check for the value of your used motor at the time of purchase. That may or may not be enough to rebuild it. However, I would substantially prefer to drop a few more bucks in the can and get a new one, than have a rusted out rebuild.

Good luck.


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## MedSailor

Minnewaska said:


> Not exactly sure how vibration would cause an oil cooler failure like this.


Well.... I'm not all that sure either, but on the other hand, how else could the whole works been working well at the time of trial and oil sample and be toast when it was delivered?

Even the idea of the owner changing the oil right before the sea trial occurred to be, but there was copper in the oil consistent with the boat sitting. ie, it didn't test out as newly changed oil.

I talked to my surveyor and he made an interesting point. He said this kind of failure shouldn't put seawater in the engine. He says that the oil pressure is higher than the seawater pressure and thus it should push oil into the seawater (not the other way around) and the symptom you would see is oil blowing out the exhaust pipe. I completely respect his opinion, but wasn't an oil cooler failure the cause of engine failure on S/V Triumph? When I asked him for other theories as to how the water got in the oil he didn't have any.

MedSailor


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## miatapaul

Yea, if the insurance company will pay, then I say get a new motor, if not find someone else to rebuild it. I can't think it rusted up that much to totally toast the motor. But if the insurance company will replace that is best. Does Ford still make the motor? I have never heard anything but good things about them. Biggest issue with new is the horse power you are looking pushes you into a Turbo on a Yanmar I think and I would try to avoid the Turbo as it is just one more thing to go wrong. I know they are reliable on cars and trucks but boats seem to go through them often.


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## Capt Len

The rocker arm shaft on those fords is partial to seizing too. maybe part of tough to turn. Now rebuild or replace?? I switched out my old ford (cooked it and needed a rebuild) for a susie DB4 95 hp contin from Klassin in Van. Price was right and a real work engine . New rings/bearings etc.would be cheapest and not really a challenge in a good shop.


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## bljones

an engine seized from passive water ingress is different from an engine seized due to oil starvation and overheating, ie no heat damage, no warpage. hone the cylinders, new rings, bearings and valves, and she's all good. it requires disassembly and reassembly and unless you are prepared to turn some wrenches yourself, you may find the rebuild cost might come close to the cost of a new engine.


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## SloopJonB

Bob142 said:


> I disagree about an overfilled crankcase being able to stop the piston... as the piston comes down it would force the oil or water out the dipstick tube and make a big mess ...


Also, as one goes down, another is going up, creating an equivalent space. Oil systems are pressurized, not sealed - if you just kept filling, it would rise up into the valley and the rocker box as well, through the drainback holes.

The problem with overfilling the oil is that the spinning crank will pick up the oil and aerate it (windage), not that it will lock things up.


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## capta

bljones said:


> an engine seized from sitting is different from an engine seized due to overheating. hone the cylinders, new rings, bearings and valves, and she's all good. it requires dis assembly and reassembly and unless you are prepared to turn some wrenches yourself, you may find the rebuild cost might come close to the cost of a new engine.


If you guys aren't particularly rich, you've gotta get this "new" engine idea outta your heads. There's long block and short blocks, both well below the cost of a new engine. There should be nothing wrong with the alt, riser, manifolds, fuel pump, expansion tank. If the head can be serviced cheaply enough and the oil pump salvaged (it's already been determined that the coolers need to be changed, or at least pressure tested), you are talking about about a quarter the cost of a new engine with a short block. This is by no means a catastrophic loss of an engine and may end up being a slightly expensive blessing in disguise. I would love an excuse to pull my engine and clean, prime and paint the area around and under the engine. New hoses, possibly some wiring and things and (especially on a motorsailor) the result will be a reliable engine (no wondering how well the PO cared for the engine when you really need it) in a nice engine space. Certainly no one dreams of being in this situation, but it will, in the long run not be the worst bad thing which could befall one of us.


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## SloopJonB

Totally agree with Capta - the length of time since this occurred makes it highly unlikely that the engine is unrebuildable.

Do you have enough clearance to remove the oil pan _in situ_? If so, pull it and remove a main bearing cap to check the state of the mains - if they aren't scored it is unlikely you will even need to turn the crank undersize.

If you have to pull the engine and you don't want to rebuild it yourself (which I highly recommend doing), don't take it to a marine shop, take it to a truck/tractor rebuilder - they will do it for about a third of the cost of a "boat" engine. Those Lehman's are about as common as a Perkins 4108 and about as indestructible.

The probable worst case scenario is the engine needs what racers call "freshening" - new rings, bearings and maybe a valve job. Pretty unlikely that the corrosion will have advanced to the point of requiring boring the cylinders, turning the crank etc.


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## MedSailor

capta said:


> If you guys aren't particularly rich, you've gotta get this "new" engine idea outta your heads. There's long block and short blocks, both well below the cost of a new engine. There should be nothing wrong with the alt, riser, manifolds, fuel pump, expansion tank. If the head can be serviced cheaply enough and the oil pump salvaged (it's already been determined that the coolers need to be changed, or at least pressure tested), you are talking about about a quarter the cost of a new engine with a short block. This is by no means a catastrophic loss of an engine and may end up being a slightly expensive blessing in disguise. I would love an excuse to pull my engine and clean, prime and paint the area around and under the engine. New hoses, possibly some wiring and things and (especially on a motorsailor) the result will be a reliable engine (no wondering how well the PO cared for the engine when you really need it) in a nice engine space. Certainly no one dreams of being in this situation, but it will, in the long run not be the worst bad thing which could befall one of us.


The tone of your post is heartening, even if I don't understand all of it. What's this about long and short blocks?

MedSailor


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## Faster

Med.. a long block is the engine with heads, and possibly other add-ons, a short block is the block, pistons, crank, rods etc all 'new' or reconditioned but with no cylinder heads or other add-ons.

There's also the issue of your gearbox.. how old, how 'good', re-useable with a short block or used engine scenario, but at this stage maybe you want utter peace of mind...


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## Capt Len

This is a pretty low hrs engine. i.e., same block is good. Plastiguage bearings for piece of mind and hone . Rings and shells, valves wouldn't hurt. New hoses going to the correct places. ( i've never liked the standard anti syphon and make my own . braze fill the vent part of the U and drill small hole for air suck' hose comes up from source and back down to pump. No dribble ,no fail and if engine not running no salt in the system.) muffler also drains. (water from exhaust can run pretty quick into pan thru rings. Note to self,, check fluids before start Went with a hurth 630 2 to 1 .Happy.


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## casey1999

MedSailor,
I was doing a search of Lehman's with water in the oil and got quite a few hits. This was an interesting post that might help you out:
Help ! Hydraulic Lock - Water in Lubrication Oil - Cruisers & Sailing Forums


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## Capt Len

Just read that thread and it seems everybody has same problems and uses same solutions,over and over. Multi oil changes or maybe re/re or new engine. Not to sound like I expect my way or the highway but how about some feedback on my solutions to these issues #1 anti syphon on suck side of raw water pump. #2 oil coolers on fresh water side #3 draining exhaust muffler (I use solenoid valve from oil press. switch).#4 RV type dagger board valve in exhaust at transom #5 check list (mental or cast in stone) In my humble opinion these may save some poor sod from saying "Oh Dear, something seem to be wrong!'


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## capta

Capt Len said:


> Just read that thread and it seems everybody has same problems and uses same solutions,over and over. Multi oil changes or maybe re/re or new engine. Not to sound like I expect my way or the highway but how about some feedback on my solutions to these issues #1 anti syphon on suck side of raw water pump. #2 oil coolers on fresh water side #3 draining exhaust muffler (I use solenoid valve from oil press. switch).#4 RV type dagger board valve in exhaust at transom #5 check list (mental or cast in stone) In my humble opinion these may save some poor sod from saying "Oh Dear, something seem to be wrong!'


1) a bit tough on impellers when you are sucking air all the time.
2) Engine water temp runs about 180 degrees, how will that cool the oil?
3) Another thing to fail (now electric not mechanical), and a failure underway could sink boat.
4) A bit less trouble to design the boat w/the exhaust well above the water line


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## casey1999

Question for MedSailor, maybe I missed it in the thread: When the engine is shut down, is the raw water inlet valve for engine cooling also shut?

Another question:
From what others have said, maybe salt water siphoned into the engine, but how would the water get from a cylinder or valve head into the engine? Would it leak by the cylinder piston gap (which is very very small) or through a valve guide (also very small)?


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## MedSailor

casey1999 said:


> Question for MedSailor, maybe I missed it in the thread: When the engine is shut down, is the raw water inlet valve for engine cooling also shut?
> 
> Another question:
> From what others have said, maybe salt water siphoned into the engine, but how would the water get from a cylinder or valve head into the engine? Would it leak by the cylinder piston gap (which is very very small) or through a valve guide (also very small)?


No the valve stays open.

How would it syphon exactly? Through the intake side, then into the oil cooler, then into the oilpan? Possible I suppose but wouldn't it continue to try and sink the boat by overflowing through the dipstick? I guess I should check and see exactly where the waterline is. If this was the failure mode, it would have happened during my few days at the slip before my 3 month haul.

Also, it doesn't explain the rust on the valves. I do think the failed cooler circulated the mess throughout the engine.

MedSailor


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## TQA

First of all I am an ex spanner monkey with some recognized diesel chops. 99.? % the damage is down to oil cooler failure this usually manifests itself with oil loss but water ingress is possible.

Like I said in post 22 the engine has to come out. 

Then you have a decision rebuild this engine or get an exchange unit. Spares availability on this engine is pretty good and unless there is some hidden horror only found when you strip it everything you need should be available. My best guess would be that the rings are seized to the bore. Leaving a mix of TQF and diesel in the bores for a few days then the piston should move with some encouragement from a large hammer. The crankshaft should be out and the piston covered with a wood block at least an inch thick. Protect the top of the block too unless you are sure you won't miss. 

Minor pitting to the bores and even the bearing surfaces is not serious. Hone the bores and remove any surface rust from the shaft with some 600 W/D. I would give the little ends a pass unless you see rust.

Now by the sounds of things you are not going to do the work yourself. In that case find someone who can strip that engine and get it stripped as quickly as you can. Everyday the engine sits the corrosion is getting worse. Changing the oil is no bad thing but it does not get fresh oil into the bores or bearing journals and that is where the damage is being done.

I have not dealt with salt water damage but I have had some success filling the engine to the top of the rocker box with 50% oil 50% diesel. You have to plug the dipstick, lift pump vent and crankcase breather. This does stop the corrosion as you are excluding the oxygen from the atmosphere. There are some salvage specialists around they may be able to suggest something better for salt water damage. 

If it were mine I would expect to get away with a full gasket set and set of piston rings. 

NB IF YOU HAVE TO HAMMER OUT THE PISTONS REPLACE THE RINGS EVEN IF THEY LOOK PERFECT. 

I would fit new crankshaft bearing shells too unless the old ones look perfect.


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## MedSailor

TQA said:


> First of all I am an ex spanner monkey with some recognized diesel chops. 99.? % the damage is down to oil cooler failure this usually manifests itself with oil loss but water ingress is possible.


Thanks for your thoughts. I'm listening....

Back to the cause of the failure, I'm hearing from more than one trusted mechanic that oil cooler failures put oil in the water, not water in the oil.  Of course, there aren't many competing theories out there yet.

The last mech I talked to said that almost certainly something failed (he was thinking seawater mixer at the exhaust) when I ran the engine for 5 minutes and over the last 3 months she's been rusting. I buy that. It fits well with the sequence of events.

Here's what I don't get: The engine was clearly in a failed condition THE FIRST TIME I TURNED THE KEY AFTER A FULL SURVEY WITH OIL SAMPLE. Now I know that a catastrophic failure can happen any time you turn the key but I would think that the first time you turn the key after a full survey would be slightly less likely to be the time for that failure.

What else is bugging me is that there was a major event between the time of the survey and the time I turned the key. That event was 5,000miles of trucking. I really don't know what happened, but this would have to be the world's biggest unlucky coincidence if a catastrophic failure happened immediately after a good survey, AND had NOTHING to do with being trucked.

I've had 2 mechanics mention the possibility of rain water getting in through the exhaust. One mentioned sabotage. Anyone else got any theories?

If it was the oil cooler, can they introduce water into the oil?

Anyone have any ideas how the trucking part may have caused this? It just can't possibly be a red herring that has nothing to do with this mystery....

MedSailor


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## MrA

this event has no workable cause? In the discourse something is being missed. if there is no water in the cylinders how did the motor seize? only logical progression is that you initiated the problem when you started the engine, it ran long enough to circulate salt water thru the oil ports, everything in the engine was coated with salt water, just have to figure when the water was introduced? oil pump is at the bottom of the pan in a sump.


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## casey1999

MedSailor- 
You say the raw water vavle is always left open, even with engine shut down. Now the oil cooler fails and when the engine is sitting water siphons in and is now in the oil cooler. The siphoned water is at a higher pressure than the engine oil since the engine is not running. Salt water siphones into the engine oil sump. When you ran the engine for a short time, the oil pump sucked the salt water from the bottom of the sump (sea water sinks, oil floats) and sent sea water to all parts of the engine. Now the engine is shut down with sea water covering the metal, not engine oil- rust happens.

From your op "I ran the engine for 5 minutes at the slip the day after I was unloaded from the truck."

1. Maybe the salt water sitting in the oil cooler caused more rapid corrosion and the vibration of the trucking broke the oil cooler. When you ran it for the 5 minutes and had the raw water valve opened before starting engine- that introduced the water to the engine.


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## MrA

^^^believe the mystery is solved when you started it after it came off the truck the 5 minutes elapsed time was enough to cause the damage, all the oil pump is looking at is water so that's what it circulated, now the internals are coated, then the boat sits, recipe for seizing engine. Salt water is not forgiving.


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## Capt Len

What's the likelyhood of a couple of wackos stuffing a hose and towel up the stump while the truck's parked at Denny's . Compare that to a stuck anti syphon. Could take less than a day to fill the engine to overflow.Can get past rings to sump toot sweet This is not rocket sc. As for my suggestion for placement of suck don't blow. (real small air hole) 40 years of damage to my impellers?? NOT! When the pump bearing seals went I was glad I had this system .. Never measured temp out of exchanger but not 180. Seems to work in auto trans in cars. and heat transfer in marine use to cold water works gooder. If you are afraid of electrical stuff failing just install a ball valve on the side of the aqua lift. Leave it closed so water can rise when not looking. Redesign whole boat so entire engine is well above the waterline and standing water in the exhaust pipe is not effected by running down the face of real waves Milky oil ?? No thanks.


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## MedSailor

MrA said:


> ^^^believe the mystery is solved when you started it after it came off the truck the 5 minutes elapsed time was enough to cause the damage, all the oil pump is looking at is water so that's what it circulated, now the internals are coated, then the boat sits, recipe for seizing engine. Salt water is not forgiving.


That's not really the mystery I'm trying to solve. Yes, I believe the 5 minutes of running with a failed cooler followed by sitting totaled the engine.

THE MYSTERY IS how could the oil cooler fail the first time I turned the key after a survey proved that it was working AND how could the trucking part (which seems like a big deal) have nothing to do with it. That's the mystery I'm pondering right now.

MedSailor


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## Oldboyracer

First of all I feel your pain and frustration . I know nothing about your particular engine other than it's an 80s dinosaur , which is a good thing . I went thru a similar thing , went out to the boat for a sail and checked the oil and it's at the top of the dipstick with sea water in the sump . Panic time I didn't have the funds to get some one to look at it so it was up to me . I obtained a workshop manual( internet for free ) and started pulling it apart ( it's already broken so what's the worst that could happen ) my water got in thru a broken anti syphon , the seacock also leaked when closed as I found out when I took the hose off ( water does come in real fast when it's a surprise ) . Mine is a 35 year old volvo the experts said throw it away and replace with a wonderfull shiny new one with lots of electronics to go wrong . I basically tore it apart in the boat gave it a rough hone sent the heads out to get rebuilt , new rings ( which I didn't bed in properly , live and learn ) I pulled a bearing cap and it was just alright so I left them alone , put it back together new cheap oil and turned the key . Success . Yes it blows a bit of smoke and one day I will maybe do again and do it right but while it keeps running I will leave it alone and go sailing . Total cost $700 . If you have a friend that can help it's not really that hard , stay away from " marine " mechanics take the parts well away from anywhere that would even have seen a picture of a boat to have work done and the price falls . Ebay is your friend , I picked up a complete motor for mine for $ 200. I stripped that one down and kept the basic parts for the next rebuild . I did all this on a swing mooring . For me it was a case of spend a thousand and see what happens , if it didn't work out I was still up for a new motor anyway and I would call the cost "experience" . If I had to pay some one to do the work I would probably have gone for new over rebuild . I now know my motor and cooling system and it has given me new found confidence in my abilities to get it running again should it stop . I don't know your situation but pulling something apart yourself is free . If it has to be replaced at least it's all disconnected for the mechanic . When the anti syphon went it came thru the exhaust down an open valve into the bore and trickled into the sump , there was rust on the rocker arms , inside all the engine covers and pretty much looked really bad to me , but it cleaned up ok . Hope fully you will have the same out come . Incidentally i was told it was most probably a head gasket that had failed allowing water to get into the oil , who knows now it could have been two problems . All the best and keep us posted on your out comes .


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## casey1999

MedSailor said:


> That's not really the mystery I'm trying to solve. Yes, I believe the 5 minutes of running with a failed cooler followed by sitting totaled the engine.
> 
> THE MYSTERY IS how could the oil cooler fail the first time I turned the key after a survey proved that it was working AND how could the trucking part (which seems like a big deal) have nothing to do with it. That's the mystery I'm pondering right now.
> 
> MedSailor


Could have been salt water setting in the oil cooler for a long time- creates more corrosion. The oil cooler was probably on its last leg and the trucking vibration did it in. In the end in don't really matter. What it is, is what it is. Fix it and move on. In the future maintain the engine well, use the engine and do what you need to do to make sure sea water does not make its way in- flush with fresh water, close sea cocks, maintain anti-siphon, install a exhaust valve if you plan to do some heavy weather sailing- close it and drain the water muffler when engine not in use.


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## Minnewaska

Med, how long did the boat sit in the water after it was trucked to you and when you ran it for those 5 mins?

The thought that your open thru-hull allow ingress, which was then circulated, is plausible. I would think it would have required a bit of sit time. Overnight maybe?


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## MedSailor

casey1999 said:


> Could have been salt water setting in the oil cooler for a long time- creates more corrosion. The oil cooler was probably on its last leg and the trucking vibration did it in. *In the end in don't really matter. *What it is, is what it is. Fix it and move on. In the future maintain the engine well, use the engine and do what you need to do to make sure sea water does not make its way in- flush with fresh water, close sea cocks, maintain anti-siphon, install a exhaust valve if you plan to do some heavy weather sailing- close it and drain the water muffler when engine not in use.


Oh, but it does. I'm not sure yet because insurance hasn't called me back, but I believe the cause will help determine if this is a covered event or not. If it's covered, great. If it's not, I'm really not sure what I'm going to do.

Tearing it apart myself sounds like fun, and it's winter anyway, but I'm currently working 50+ hours/week and have a 2 year old and a 3 week old at home. I don't have tonnes of time to tear into an engine.

For now I wait....

MedSailor


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## Minnewaska

Also have to wonder if this was due to galvanic corrosion, which could happen again.


----------



## MedSailor

Minnewaska said:


> Also have to wonder if this was due to galvanic corrosion, which could happen again.


The cooler has it's own zinc. It sat for 2 days or so before I started it. Of course, this theory predicates on the idea that the oil cooler arrived in a failed condition, yet it wasn't failed when I left florida.

I'm really looking forward to cutting the offending cooler open...

MedSailor


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## Minnewaska

Makes me wonder how diligent the PO was in servicing that zinc. If the interior structure had corroded, perhaps the vibration of trucking broke it open. Then sitting for two days with the thru hull open allowed ingress. Running the engine circulated the saltwater. 

Horrible, but plausible.


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## MedSailor

Minnewaska said:


> Makes me wonder how diligent the PO was in servicing that zinc. If the interior structure had corroded, perhaps the vibration of trucking broke it open. Then sitting for two days with the thru hull open allowed ingress. Running the engine circulated the saltwater.
> 
> Horrible, but plausible.


Horrible thing is, I have already learned the lesson of not letting an oil cooler fail courtesy of Doug Sabbag. I was planning to replace it myself as soon as I got to my slip. Of course, I didn't even have a chance to get that far...

I haven't taken a look at the zinc on the cooler myself yet, but I'm looking forward to seeing it.

In other news the yard is willing to fill the engine with oil and let it sit for a few days an see if it'll unseize. Cost for this experiment would be about $800. They don't recommend it and say that the bearings are likely toast and could easily seize back up (in a more permanent way) within 10 hours of motoring.

On the other hand, new engine quotes seem to be coming in from all directions. I've even been blessed with the courtesy of follow up phone calls already on the new engine quotes. I feel like the family is arguing over the estate while the body is still warm...

MedSailor


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## casey1999

MedSailor said:


> Oh, but it does. I'm not sure yet because insurance hasn't called me back, but I believe the cause will help determine if this is a covered event or not.
> MedSailor


Insurance should not cover rust and rot. If they do, no wonder our rates are so high.. and I got some claims to submit...


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## Bob142

800 Dollars to fill with oil and let it sit for a couple of days...Are they on drugs???


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## MarkofSeaLife

Did you have another mechanic look at it?

I liked the idea of a truck mechanic. Some guy from a long way from water.

Its crazy and they are ripping you off.

I still doubt you need a new engine. But most folks are so scared of mechanics they would prefer to pay out $10,000 than have someone else look at it. Just weight the figures up... Whats been the quotes on a new engine?
Land I will bet no one has talked about reconditioned engines... They just want to shove a brand new one in an old boat... Ripping you off.




Mark


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## MedSailor

casey1999 said:


> Insurance should not cover rust and rot. If they do, no wonder our rates are so high.. and I got some claims to submit...


Easy there buddy. I spent nearly $5,000 to fly out 2 of the best surveyors I could find to tell me the condition of the boat. The boat arrived and it was already broken. It's not like I ran around for a year at WOT with this as a known impending issue and deferred addressing it. I never got a chance to address the issue at all.

From my perspective I went above and beyond to try and mitigate risk and when the dice rolled I got owned. That's what insurance is for right? When the guy who does what he's supposed to gets struck by lightening? I'm not reckless or careless and filing claims all over the place raising your rates. I tried my best to avoid a situation like this and still got owned.

MedSailor


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## Skipper Jer

Bob142 said:


> 800 Dollars to fill with oil and let it sit for a couple of days...Are they on drugs???


Arrrr mateys, theres booty to be had out in them there yards. We fill the engine with $10.00 of oil in 5 minutes and we get $800.

Arrrrrrrr
Pirates of the Marina


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## casey1999

MedSailor said:


> Easy there buddy. I spent nearly $5,000 to fly out 2 of the best surveyors I could find to tell me the condition of the boat. The boat arrived and it was already broken. It's not like I ran around for a year at WOT with this as a known impending issue and deferred addressing it. I never got a chance to address the issue at all.
> 
> From my perspective I went above and beyond to try and mitigate risk and when the dice rolled I got owned. That's what insurance is for right? When the guy who does what he's supposed to gets struck by lightening? I'm not reckless or careless and filing claims all over the place raising your rates. I tried my best to avoid a situation like this and still got owned.
> 
> MedSailor


Well let's just put it this way, there are no "experts" in life, only people whom call themselves experts. So you got a couple surveyors whom think they are experts and never miss a thing. Yea, when I got my boat and houses inspected by those "Professional Inspectors or Surveyors" they missed a lot of problems. But instead of suing them, I just fixed what was broke and moved on. I am sure the fine print of your "Professional Surveyor Contract" will exclude things that are not glaringly obviously broken. Do what you like, but I stay away from "experts" and lawyers as best I can, and doctors too, but that is another subject.


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## TQA

Sure it could be to do with the trucking. 5000 miles of shake rattle and roll was the last straw for the corroded oil cooler it failed and the salt water water in heat exchanger drained down into the sump. A small hole would be sufficient.

5 minutes of running circulated the salt water round the engine, the oil pickup pipe being at the bottom of the sump in the salt water.


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## casey1999

MedSailor said:


> Easy there buddy. I spent nearly $5,000 to fly out 2 of the best surveyors I could find to tell me the condition of the boat.
> MedSailor


MedSailor,
Let me put it this way, I hold a "Professional Mechanical Engineers License". I am not really sure what that means and not sure if I am an expert at anything. But if you want to pay me $2,500 to inspect your boat's engine prior to sale, I would be happy to.


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## TakeFive

casey1999 said:


> Well let's just put it this way, there are no "experts" in life, only people whom call themselves experts...


I call BS. There _are_ experts. Experience means something.

There are also people who claim to have more expertise than they actually have, but to say "there are no "experts" in life, only people whom call themselves experts" is a total overstatement.



casey1999 said:


> ...Yea, when I got my boat and houses inspected by those "Professional Inspectors or Surveyors" they missed a lot of problems. But instead of suing them, I just fixed what was broke and moved on.


I don't sense that this guy is planning to sue anyone. Those surveyors were there to protect the insurance company. That's what insurance is for - to cover damage that occurs during transit. If the surveyor says it was fine before shipping, and there was damage during shipping, the insurance should pay. Med's expectations are reasonable. I disagree with your suggestion otherwise.

This clearly isn't some trumped up fraudulent insurance claim. The vast majority of "experts" here are saying the damage likely occurred in transit. That doesn't guarantee that it's correct, but it certainly is plausible enough for Med to pursue.


----------



## MedSailor

casey1999 said:


> MedSailor,
> Let me put it this way, I hold a "Professional Mechanical Engineers License". I am not really sure what that means and not sure if I am an expert at anything. But if you want to pay me $2,500 to inspect your boat's engine prior to sale, I would be happy to.


Casey,

Can I ask you a personal favor? One sailor to another?

Back off please.

Have you ever heard the expression too soon? If you want to roast me please at least do me the favor of allowing me to get back on the f---ing water before you do so.

I get it about experts but if you want to go down that road you also have to fault the people at Caterpillar labs for their bad assessment of my oil sample. You'd think even "experts" like them could see seawater in the sample they analyzed.

Medsailor


----------



## MedSailor

Captainmeme said:


> Arrrr mateys, theres booty to be had out in them there yards. We fill the engine with $10.00 of oil in 5 minutes and we get $800.
> 
> Arrrrrrrr
> Pirates of the Marina


(Raises eyebrow) umm.. not exactly.

The quote is to:
Change the oil and filter.
Fill the engine with oil.
Let me continue to block their teavel lift dock for a few days.
Drain the oul from the cylinders.
Replace the injectors.
Try and unseize the engine and start it.

Like it or not (not in my case) the labor rate around here is, with tax, $100/hr. Car mechanics are only $90/hr.

The quote is for all the above in 8hrs. I do know a guy that used to pay $500 for a routine oil change on his "megayacht" but in this case i feel the quote is (unfortunately) fair.

Medsailor


----------



## jimgo

MedSailor said:


> Tearing it apart myself sounds like fun, and it's winter anyway, but I'm currently working 50+ hours/week and have a 2 year old and a 3 week old at home.
> MedSailor


HOLY CR&P!!! I disappear for a few weeks, and your family expands!?!? CONGRATULATIONS dude! That is awesome! And it further explains your exasperation and frustration. Oh man. What crappy timing for this to happen to you. I remember those days. My kids are 2 years and 5 months apart. Those first few weeks are just kinda surreal, especially when one of you is alone. I used to get my oldest ready for daycare in the mornings (my wife left early for work). I remember the third or fourth day after our second son came home, and I woke up and had to go to work. My wife had just fallen asleep after being awake nearly 24 hours straight and was (understandably) out cold, I needed a shower, the oldest desperately needed his diaper changed, and the little one was just starting to stir. I was like - wow, what do I do? I can't take the oldest out and change him, cause the little one will cry. The little one HAS to be fed, and if I take him out, the oldest will cry. And I don't have the coordination to feed one and change the other at the same time. And my poor wife needs sleep, and I gotta get to the new job I just started 2 weeks ago, and... and that was just the first of many such mornings. So I'm envisioning you going through your own permutation of this, AND throwing the boat crap in on top of it.

You have my sympathies. It never fails, does it? Sounds like you did everything right to try to avoid this situation. If you're ever on the DC-NYC area, or in the LA area (though I'm not there quite as often), I'll buy the first round.


----------



## davidpm

Mr. Med

It might be too early but in hind site is their anything you can think of you could have done differently that would have been both reasonable and doable to prevent this problem.

To me it looks like you ticked all the boxes but still got bit.

But maybe you can think of a process that would have caught this.


----------



## casey1999

MedSailor said:


> Casey,
> 
> Can I ask you a personal favor? One sailor to another?
> 
> Back off please.
> 
> Have you ever heard the expression too soon? If you want to roast me please at least do me the favor of allowing me to get back on the f---ing water before you do so.
> 
> I get it about experts but if you want to go down that road you also have to fault the people at Caterpillar labs for their bad assessment of my oil sample. You'd think even "experts" like them could see seawater in the sample they analyzed.
> 
> Medsailor


Sorry dude. Not sure about them cat folks, like I said, there ain't no experts. If I depended on experts I would be fired- I gotta keep the equipment running or I lose my job. Your other problem is that you curse your boat. I would not do that if she were sinking under me, but too each his/her own.
Aloha- outta here


----------



## Minnewaska

For those arguing over whether insurance should cover, I would steer clear of using intuition. Insurance contracts are very hard for the consumer to fully understand, which is one reason why I always recommend an independent agent. They know the nuances and a good one can be sure you know what you are buying. 

No insurance contract covers any loss. They all define what losses they cover and, by exclusion, what losses they don't. Then the insurance company calculates its odds of losing and determines a premium. A bet, if you will. In a sense, the insurance company bets you won't have a loss and you bet you will. 

Just like a bet at the craps table, there is no discussion over anything other than what you exactly bet on. The insurance contract defines your bet. 

While I understand that Med did everything humanly possible to prevent a loss in this case, if the contract doesn't cover corrosion (and that turns out to be the cause), there will be no way to get the house to pay on a bet they didn't make.

I would pound on this being caused by the trucking, if corrosion is not covered and is determined to be the issue. It's conceivable that never determining the cause would put Med it a better position for a claim. However, the house probably wouldn't want to make the bet again (ie, you get cancelled), because they can't determine the odds.

This is where you really could use an independent agent to help make your case. I hope Med used one. I truly wish Med a good outcome, this is a really lousy situation.

(and congrats on the new baby! went right by me earlier)


----------



## TakeFive

Minnewaska said:


> For those arguing over whether insurance should cover, I would steer clear of using intuition. Insurance contracts are very hard for the consumer to fully understand, which is one reason why I always recommend an independent agent. They know the nuances and a good one can be sure you know what you are buying...


These are all assumptions that we are making.

FWIW, my assumption was that it is the trucking company's insurance company that may be on the hook for this. No shopping around for insurance, since Med didn't pick the insurance company. He may have shopped for trucking companies, and could have used their insurance coverage as a criterion for selection, but how many people do that?

If the trucking company's insurance isn't involved, Med should get them involved. If he hasn't, I would expect that Med's insurance adjuster may get them involved. Let them cancel the trucker's insurance, not Med's boat policy.


----------



## Minnewaska

TakeFive said:


> These are all assumptions that we are making.
> 
> FWIW, my assumption was that it is the trucking company's insurance company that may be on the hook for this....


That's an interesting point and likely dependent on insurance laws in the state of claim, assuming liability can attach to the hauler at all.

I recall some nasty language in a hauling contract I once considered. I actually had her delivered on her bottom, in part, because the over road exposure was much greater. I have a sense these over ground haulers have you sign away some of your rights there.


----------



## TakeFive

MedSailor said:


> 5: We realized the size and scope of the pedestal, teak and other damage and opted to be hauled in the yard for repairs.
> 
> 6: Insurance was contacted, survey done, and the repairs were conducted over the last 3 months. No engine work was done by the yard, so they could not have damaged it.


Note that there was already an insurance claim for other damage during shipping. Whichever insurance company covered this would likely be the one responsible for the additional hidden damage.


----------



## steel

Sounds like the oil was contaminated with water for a while which rusted the dipstick, and then running it circulated saltwater oil which rusted things up.



davidpm said:


> Mr. Med
> 
> It might be too early but in hind site is their anything you can think of you could have done differently that would have been both reasonable and doable to prevent this problem.


I can think of something. On anything in a questionable state of upkeep like this, check the oil for water contamination before and after running. If there is water or rust before, then drain the oil, cut off all source of sea water, refill/change the oil, run the engine, possibly change the oil again if it's saltwater, then find and fix the leak. If water contaminated oil is found after running, immediately restart the engine, shut off all sources of seawater, idle it or have someone start it periodically so it doesn't lock up from rust and immediately find a source of any kind of motor oil, even dirty oil from another engine. It won't overheat at idle since it's diesel. Then change the oil, run it, and change it again. You might be able to bypass the oil cooler if that is leaking so you can get all the water out of the oil.

It's really bad how there aren't any low oil pressure or high temperature alarms or systems to prevent oil contamination like this even though it could probably be installed for less than $50. This is especially true for cars. It's hard to see a red warning light during the day, and some cars don't even have that.


----------



## miatapaul

steel said:


> Sounds like the oil was contaminated with water for a while which rusted the dipstick, and then running it circulated saltwater oil which rusted things up.
> 
> I can think of something. On anything in a questionable state of upkeep like this, check the oil for water contamination before and after running. If there is water or rust before, then drain the oil, cut off all source of sea water, refill/change the oil, run the engine, possibly change the oil again if it's saltwater, then find and fix the leak. If water contaminated oil is found after running, immediately restart the engine, shut off all sources of seawater, idle it or have someone start it periodically so it doesn't lock up from rust and immediately find a source of any kind of motor oil, even dirty oil from another engine. It won't overheat at idle since it's diesel. Then change the oil, run it, and change it again. You might be able to bypass the oil cooler if that is leaking so you can get all the water out of the oil.
> 
> It's really bad how there aren't any low oil pressure or high temperature alarms or systems to prevent oil contamination like this even though it could probably be installed for less than $50. This is especially true for cars. It's hard to see a red warning light during the day, and some cars don't even have that.


Well one would think having the oil tested at a professional lab would show any problems. So I think this was a sudden occurrence. I do agree that the yard should have checked oil before attempting to fire her up.


----------



## RobertMw

MedSailor said:


> Yesterday was supposed to be a happy day. After three months in the yard repairing $14,000 worth of damage caused by the Florida riggers who decommissioned my new boat for transport, we finally were launched into the water. Finally, nearly 4 months after buying the boat, and after insurance battles and months in the yard, we could finally put our first mile under the keel.
> 
> Then, the email from the yard. The engine won't start. No big deal, probably a dead battery right? Then, the next email, *the engine is seized. *
> 
> --->  --->  --->  ---> uke
> 
> How is that possible? The engine surveyed well, the engine ran in Florida, and 3 months ago when I went in the water from the truck, the engine ran just fine. The yard did no work in, or around the engine. Surely it's not really seized.... I go down to the boat, and indeed, the sound of the starter trying to engage, the good voltage at the batteries etc indicate it sure sounds like it's seized. Then I pull the dipstick.
> 
> --->  --->  --->  ---> uke
> 
> The dipstick reads grossly over full. Probably 3-5 times full. The color is greyish, brownish, not fully transparent and smells like kerosene. It's not cooking oil color, and it's not black. Worst part? The last 1.5 inches of the dipstick are blatantly rusty. I then pulled a sample of oil from the bottom of the engine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's not a frappuccino kids. That's what came out of the engine. Clearly it separated quickly and it doesn't look like coolant at the bottom. Since it separated so quickly, it's not likely to be diesel. I'm thinking based on it's color, the fact that it separated and the rust on the bottom of the dipstick that it's likely seawater. Peering into the top of the engine I can see the valves look rusty and when I run my finger over the valves at the top, I get a gritty rusty oily stuff on my fingers.
> 
> The yard suggested that water that was in the engine exhaust could have migrated up through the exhaust circuit and gotten in the engine during the bumps along the road in the 5,000mile road trip. I don't see how that could be possible because *I ran the engine for 5 minutes at the slip the day after I was unloaded from the truck*. If water from the exhaust got into the cylinders it wouldn't have started or ran, correct?
> 
> Another thought is a survey finding from the pre-purchase survey. I was told the oil coolers were bad (one for the engine, one for the tranny) and were due for replacement. Could the engine oil cooler have failed while sitting in the yard? Seems unlikely....
> 
> I'm not sure where else to look, or what to think. The engine surveyed well except for the above mentioned oil coolers finding and the finding that all the hoses were soft, squishy and due for replacement. The engine is a Ford Lehman 90HP 1985 naturally aspirated 4 cyl diesel with 1450 hours, and the boat is a 1985 Nauticat 40. Again, the yard did no engine work (though they did replace a cutlass bearing) and I can't imagine how this could be the yard's fault, though on the other hand, I gave them a boat with a working engine and I got back an engine that is seized.
> 
> I will know more on monday when the mechanics look at it. I really want to pull the injectors and valve cover right now and change the oil 10 times, but I am going to wait for the yard to look at it.
> 
> Thoughts? Maybe by next summer I'll actually have a functioning boat again...
> 
> MedSailor


Read the seventh paragraph again


----------



## MedSailor

RobertMw said:


> Read the seventh paragraph again


I did. And I eagerly await your point.

If it did rust through on the hard, then why would the engine be seized? It hasn't been started, and so the saltwater wouldn't have circulated, since it was on the hard.

Your post was too short for me to know what you're trying to tell me.

MedSailor


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

Having an insurance background for a coupla years after uni and before losing grip on reality I can only offer comment of long ago policies in a different country.
Policies don't like mechanical failure and are often completely excluded except for a few exceptions to the exclusions, like fusion in household policies.
In your own marine policy I think engine failure would be excluded unless specificly stated to be included.
The policy of the trucking company or the marinas, yards etc, would allow claims if they dropped the engine and caused mechanical damage. But if the survey already said the oil cooler is stuffed then the constant vibration of a truck going from Florida to Washington State could, foreseeably by you, damage it further. The comanpy would then decline the payout for the oil cooler, and damage consequent to its failure.

Its a long haul by road and a reasonable man could expect rattling the whole way and any substandard fittings may break without the negligence of the truckin' mob.

It was your duty of care to have the oil cooler fixed as soon as you bought it and before it was put in the water again and before the engine was run again.

Sorry 

I would still whack it in the claim... But dont be expecting to be paid out for it. Oh, and you must provide the surveyors report on it because if you knew it was suspect and didnt say that to the insurance company then thats fraud, or attempted fraud.

As you or someone said in an earlier post... Its all in the wording of al the bits of paper from the carriage documents to the various insurance documents. Its an exciting job to check them all *Yawn* Glad I got out of that job!!


----------



## MedSailor

Mark,

You say that I should have known that vibration while trucking could push a part over the edge, and thus I should have fixed it, yet the yard here says "there is no possible way that vibration from trucking could have contributed". So opinions vary on that part. For the record the surveyors didn't say it looked like it was about to imminently fail. They said it was due for replacment. Also, I'm not planning on hiding anything from anyone. My insurance can read this thread if they want. I'm too good looking to go to prison.

Another finding I had was that a holding tank was leaking. It is being fixed on this end (waiting for a special order tank to arrive), but should I have stopped the press and had it fixed in Florida lest it crack open during transport? If that happened, I'd say it would be closer to neglegent on my part than not fixing the cooler that "was due for replacement." Maybe I should have, on the other hand they yard monkey's in Florida's shoddy work WERE THE CAUSE of my first claim. I hired them to do less than $1000 worth of work and they did $14,000 worth of damage. If I had hired them to do more, who's to say they wouldn't have done more damage. If I would have stayed longer I would have been sitting around in hurricane season. And a hurricane did come where the boat was parked....

Damned if you do... Damned if you don't....

Minnewaska's point actually has helped my stress level immensely. Don't use intuition. Heck, don't even try and understand where this fits into the policy. All the facts still aren't known and won't be until the forensic surveyor shows up and even after all the facts are known, who knows the true vagaries of my policy or if they'll cover it. 

I'm trying to be more Zen about this. I have no control. Oooooohhhhmmmmm... 

(surveyor has been contacted. Hopefully he'll look at it today or tomorrow)

MedSailor

PS Quotes to pull the engine and put it back in have been given by 2 yards. One says 20hrs round trip, the other says 48hrs. Hmmmm.....


----------



## jimgo

That's because one yard's rate is about 2x the other's.


----------



## SloopJonB

MedSailor said:


> they yard monkey's in Florida's shoddy work WERE THE CAUSE of my first claim. I hired them to do less than $1000 worth of work and they did $14,000 worth of damage.


How about some details? Or are you waiting for the insurance to be settled first?


----------



## aelkin

Hey Med;
I have no insight, but I'm reading this thread with interest.

Just thought I'd point out that I'm impressed with your conduct in a number of ways - for a guy with a young family, you're holding it together really well.

Good luck!


----------



## MedSailor

SloopJonB said:


> How about some details? Or are you waiting for the insurance to be settled first?


I was actually planning on telling the whole story as a SalNet epic. Initially I was keeping quiet because I didn't want to shame the riggers and wanted to give them a chance to redeem themselves. They refused all contact with me. My insurance (plug for Safeco) paid up for all the damage even though it wasn't initially clear that everything would be covered. Now that that issue is all settled I was all set to tell the eipc, but figured I should at least wait until I was back in the water to ensure a happy ending. Well I'm in the water, but the happy ending is delayed for now.

Short version of the story? I hired Mack Sails in Florida to take the steering pedistal off the boat and prep it for shipping. They cut all my electrical wires (instead of unplugging them) and didn't even label what they cut. The left the hydraulic lines uncapped and hydraulic fluid ruined teak inside the boat and out. They had difficulty unbolting the pedistal, so they drilled out the bolts (unncesssary). As carefully prepping the interior for shipping, they didn't take any measures to store thing well below but intead chucked all kinds of deck gear below (like anchors) to slosh around the teak interior on the 5,000mile trip.


































MedSailor


----------



## djodenda

Yes, indeed, Med, you are a gentleman.


----------



## Skipper Jer

HOLY FU*&!!!!!!!! 

How can any one in the business be so lame brain, careless, lazy, unprofessional and STUPID? Were they high on dope? I am surprised they didn't take either a torch or a sawzall, maybe even a chain saw to your boat. 

WTH were they thinking?


----------



## MedSailor

Captainmeme said:


> HOLY FU*&!!!!!!!!
> 
> How can any one in the business be so lame brain, careless, lazy, unprofessional and STUPID? Were they high on dope? I am surprised they didn't take either a torch or a sawzall, maybe even a chain saw to your boat.
> 
> WTH were they thinking?


I would have been better off leaving the pedistal and electronics in place and just hitting a low bridge....

The insurance surveyor told me he'd seen bigger claims and more damage, but had never seen anything quite as blatanly careless and neglegent before.

Mack sails' response to these and many other photos, and a nicely worded letter from me asking how they wanted to handle the issue, since I assume this is not reflective of work they would be proud of, was met with TOTAL RADIO SILENCE.

MedSailor


----------



## MobiusALilBitTwisted

TakeFive said:


> These are all assumptions that we are making.
> 
> FWIW, my assumption was that it is the trucking company's insurance company that may be on the hook for this. No shopping around for insurance, since Med didn't pick the insurance company. He may have shopped for trucking companies, and could have used their insurance coverage as a criterion for selection, but how many people do that?
> 
> If the trucking company's insurance isn't involved, Med should get them involved. If he hasn't, I would expect that Med's insurance adjuster may get them involved. Let them cancel the trucker's insurance, not Med's boat policy.


Sure blame the trucking company, been waiting for it in this thread.
the trucking company had nothing to do with the running of the motor, so there insurance company will not pay out,now if they messed up the hull in some way or lost the mast or boom, sure, but i am betting NOT the water in the sump.

sounds to me that the oil cooler was at the end of its life and was not pulled and inspected, planning to do it later, and it failed now it needs to be repaired and paid for...ouch that hurts.

did you even check the oil before you started it at the delivery?

not busting your chops Med, i hate this happened to your boat.


----------



## MedSailor

MobiusALilBitTwisted said:


> sounds to me that the oil cooler was at the end of its life and was not pulled and inspected, planning to do it later, and it failed now it needs to be repaired and paid for...ouch that hurts.
> 
> did you even check the oil before you started it at the delivery?


Yes and no. The "planning to do it later" was pretty much immediately upon delivery. Before the very first turn of the key? No. Before I accumulated the first hour on my hour meter? Yes. My slip is really close by and I had no reason to suspect it would fail before I could motor less than 1 hour. If I or my surveyor syspected as much we also shouldn't have let the broker motor the boat 100yards to the travel lift to be put on the truck.

Who else (without the benefit of hindsight) would have paid an unknown yard across the country to fix this (during hurricane season) before shipping it out? Even with the benefit of hindsight the quality of work out there was so poor that having them do it doesn't look like a good option either.

I wasn't there the day the truck picked up the boat, but yes we looked at the dipstick at the time of the sea trial, and even better we took an oil sample and sent it to the lab.

I'm not sure we're going to find someone to clearly fault here:
-Was it me for ignoring a non urgent survey finding before turning the key for the first time? I don't think so.
-Was it the surveyor for not knowing it was about to fail but not making it an urgent/immediate finding? No, I don't think so.
-Was it the trucker for going over bumps? No.

Whatever caused this is a collection and combination of very unlikely events that would have been difficult to mitigate and a bad thing happened. Sometimes unlikely stuff happens and you still get burned. Hopefully that's what insurance is for...

MedSailor


----------



## MobiusALilBitTwisted

MedSailor said:


> Whatever caused this is a collection and combination of very unlikely events that would have been difficult to mitigate and a bad thing happened. Sometimes unlikely stuff happens and you still get burned. Hopefully that's what insurance is for...
> 
> MedSailor


Yes, hope you get it repaired soon...


----------



## TakeFive

MobiusALilBitTwisted said:


> Sure blame the trucking company, been waiting for it in this thread...


I never blamed the trucking company. I made assumptions, and clearly labeled them as such:



TakeFive said:


> These are all assumptions that we are making.
> 
> FWIW, my assumption was that it is the trucking company's insurance company that may be on the hook for this...If the trucking company's insurance isn't involved, Med should get them involved. If he hasn't, I would expect that Med's insurance adjuster may get them involved.


An insurance company getting involved does not imply fault. Much of the reason for getting insurance is to avoid the lengthy litigation process required to determine fault. When that happens, everyone loses.

If there is a strong case that the ultimate failure of the cooler happened while the boat was being transported (such as an irrefutable timeline and hour gauges that prove there was no use of the boat prior to failure), then it is possible that one of the insurance companies should pick it up. Depending on the wording of the policy, that may or may not include additional damage resulting from the initial failure.

So I'm not blaming the trucking company for this - though I would like to, based on the information that Med provided.


----------



## Maine Sail

MedSailor said:


> *Mack sails' response* to these and many other photos, and a nicely worded letter from me asking how they wanted to handle the issue, since I assume this is not reflective of work they would be proud of, *was met with TOTAL RADIO SILENCE. *
> 
> MedSailor


Wow that in and of itself is a horrible way to do business. Not even a response??

I know many people that have been happy with Mack Sails but this is just a reprehensible level of workmanship that deserves at least a response or a "yeah sorry we f'd up"......


----------



## weinie

Looking at Mack Sails' web sight (and by judging by the name), I would assume they don't exactly specialize in the work you required.

Being in the commercial real estate biz and dealing with contractors frequently, I've learned to stay away from companies who claim to "do it all"...like a roofer who also does siding or masonry. In other words, if you need a roofer, get a roofer.

That being said, even getting a specialist is no guarantee s&*t won't go wrong. My friend in the slip next to me wanted to ship his Catalina down to florida. He paid a rigger to take the mast down. Now this rigger has been the "go to" rigger in the area for, well forever. Well, this "pro" managed to cut every wire in the mast!

Good luck to you. Here's hoping you get everything shipshape real soon!


----------



## SloopJonB

"Not being in the business" is no excuse for making that mess. Someone who had never seen a boat before couldn't do worse.

I've seen more care taken with boats getting scrapped.

That looks SO bad and SO inexcusable it makes one wonder if you did something to pi$$ them off. 

Sorry for all your travails Med. Just keep looking ahead to better days in that sauna in a quiet cove in winter.


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

I think all work on boats needs to be supervised. One just cant ring a yard and say "haul it and whack on two coats of Micron". I have learned I MUST stand there and watch.


Mark


----------



## svHyLyte

MedSailor said:


> Yes and no. The "planning to do it later" was pretty much immediately upon delivery. Before the very first turn of the key? No. Before I accumulated the first hour on my hour meter? Yes. My slip is really close by and I had no reason to suspect it would fail before I could motor less than 1 hour. If I or my surveyor syspected as much we also shouldn't have let the broker motor the boat 100yards to the travel lift to be put on the truck.
> 
> Who else (without the benefit of hindsight) would have paid an unknown yard across the country to fix this (during hurricane season) before shipping it out? Even with the benefit of hindsight the quality of work out there was so poor that having them do it doesn't look like a good option either.
> 
> I wasn't there the day the truck picked up the boat, but yes we looked at the dipstick at the time of the sea trial, and even better we took an oil sample and sent it to the lab.
> 
> I'm not sure we're going to find someone to clearly fault here:
> -Was it me for ignoring a non urgent survey finding before turning the key for the first time? I don't think so.
> -Was it the surveyor for not knowing it was about to fail but not making it an urgent/immediate finding? No, I don't think so.
> -Was it the trucker for going over bumps? No.
> 
> Whatever caused this is a collection and combination of very unlikely events that would have been difficult to mitigate and a bad thing happened. Sometimes unlikely stuff happens and you still get burned. Hopefully that's what insurance is for...
> 
> MedSailor


It is the nature of life that all endeavors involve some measure of risk of untoward event(s). Often there is no one at "fault" but merely a sequence of unfortunate, unforeseeable events that, collectively/cumulatively, lead to some misfortune or other. Regrettably, in the US, a certain class of predators has emerged that make a handsome living by implying blame for such events and, essentially, extorting compensation, often from compliant insurers that fear the potential consequence of taking a case to court as we now have several generations that have been raised on/imbued with the idea that no one has to accept responsibility if they have the remotest chance of laying blame on someone else's doorstep and extracting payment for same.

I hate to say this, but the reality is--shoot happens. Call it/them "An Act of (a malevolent?) G_d."

We had a not dissimilar experience the very first time we started the engine on our new (to us) boat after it had sat in a yard being refit for four months after we bought her and shipped her to Florida at multi-thousands of dollars of expense. I/We could potentially have made a claim against the Yard but, aside from the fact that the family that owned the place were old friends, I knew that there really was no reasonable basis for doing so as I suspect you may/do also given you latest post, above. Our subsequent repairs took several more weeks, and thousands of dollars, but such is life. And, we preserved our friendships and relationships with all of the craftsmen, boat-rights and mechanics that worked to get us back on the water that persist to this day and continue to serve us well.

Given the foregoing I suggest you have your yard jerk that motor out of the boat; give it a good rebuild; and, chalk it up to experience. I suspect you, as did we, will be glad you do so, in the long, if not short, run.

Here Homer Nods...


----------



## davidpm

Mr. Med
Everyone is focusing on the oil cooler but what about the Anti-siphon.

I just read an article by Tom Neale and he said he had an anti-siphon valve fail on a relatively new boat and overnight water siphoned in a filled up the cylinders of his engine with water.
If the valve fails it can cause the exact situation you experienced.
http://www.forespar.com/products/boat-marine-plumbing-vented-loop-thru-hull.shtml

If the anti-siphon failed we know it can back fill the engine with raw water it has happened on many boats. It is just a single failure and the damage is done.

For it to be an oil cooler problem several things would have had to happen in just the right order for you to not have seen it during your last run.

Of course taking a look at the oil cooler is an easy diagnostic test.

The other really high possibility is that someone tried to start the engine for a few minutes with the raw water open and pumped water into the heads. Then they left for a while and figured they would try again the next day.
I know this scenario has been raised and you didn't think the yard owner would do that. What often happens is that the yard owner doesn't even know. Someone did the deed and didn't fess up even to the yard manager, it happens a lot. Look if you are 18 and someone tells you to start the motor on dock a4 and bring the boat around and you can't get it started and you just *)&(*)* up big time last week are you sure you will tell the boss what happened this time and get fired or just keep your mouth shut?

Unfortunately I don't know how any of this gets your boat fixed but maybe just knowing what happened can help in some way.


----------



## davidpm

This is the definitive list of how to get water in your cylinders.

WATER in the ENGINE


----------



## Minnewaska

davidpm said:


> ....What often happens is that the yard owner doesn't even know. Someone did the deed and didn't fess up even to the yard manager, it happens a lot.......


There is a lot of thruth to that. I am convinced of several stories where I know the yard tards messed up and wouldn't come clean. Have you ever seen what a Vibram sole workboot does to a weathered teak side deck? It's a pretty distinctive foot print. They did come to do work, but completely denied leaving the marks.

I also ate an impeller that had 45 mins of use. After that first 45 min shakedown of the season, the tards came to finish up some commissioning works, it may have been the fuel filters, I don't exactly recall. I know they needed to run the motor and highly suspected they did so without opening the seawater thru hull. The impeller disintegrated on the next run. When I queried the manager he said the guys know to open my thru hull because I'm the only one in the marina that closes it! Sure sounded more like a reason they would forget, let alone a lie that I was the only one anyway. Very frustrating. I was motivated to check with a couple of neighbors. Half closed theirs.


----------



## Minnewaska

I'm on a roll. My valve cover is essentially in two parts. A lower side housing and top cap. I have my valves adjusted at the beginning of the season, which requires removing the top cap, although, that would loosen the sides. A month into the season, there is oil leaking from the seem at the bottom of the sides of the housing (the part that was not removed).

I ask the manager if it was possible his tard did not re-tighten the lower bolts before reinstalling the cover. He said, no way, I needed a new gasket. A week later, when they realize the only way to removed the lower housing and replace that lower gasket was to R&R all the injector lines (hours of work, given some odd placements), they sheepishly suggest re-tightening the lower bolts. Not a drop since. Of course, they charged me to go back and do it.

Want more? I have hundreds of them. Grrrrrr


----------



## Maine Sail

davidpm said:


> This is the definitive list of how to get water in your cylinders.
> 
> WATER in the ENGINE


Totally different scenario than Med had. Med's oil cooler is leaking, his oil pan was full of water, not a cylinder. In a hydrolock situation you get only a little blow by into the _oil pan_ but you have water in a _cylinder_.

*Hydrolocking Can Occur From:*

*Improper Winterizing Practices (bucket higher then siphon break)
*Improperly Flushing The Engine (direct garden hose connection)
*Improperly Running Engine On Hard (direct garden hose connection)
*Scoop Type Strainer Installed Facing Forward
*Failed, Stuck or No Vacuum Breaker
*Using a "Flushing" Style Seacock Incorrectly

I use only Scot Pump siphon breaks and have found them the most reliable for this critical application......

P.S. I have seen and know of hydrolocking events from all of the above scenarios. In the scoop strainer hydrolock the boat had worked "fine" for 15 years then while surfing a some big waves, sailing down wind one day, it forced enough pressure up and over and hydrolocked. Vacuum breaker was perfectly fine.. The most common hydrolock is by far the "garden hose" by an inexperienced owner......


----------



## MedSailor

DavidPm's post has got me thinking. I/we are focusing on the oil cooler and are pretty much convicting it as the culprit. It's true symptoms and signs do point to it, but on the other hand the circumstances surrounding its failure are so unusual and involve so many coincidences that it's hart to take it as a satisfying answer.

Are there other things we should be considering? What about water from the exhaust circuit dribbling back in, and not getting into the cylenders, but rather draining back into the oil somehow? Could the truck have driven down a hill and gotten oil in the cylenders which then, over the next week, leaked down past the rings into the oil pan? My engine anatomy knowledge isn't good enough to know if this is possible or not. 

There was mention that the job the riggers did, was so bad that perhaps I pissed them off to cause it. If that's the case it would imply that the poor quality of work was intentional, which would make the act a criminal act of vandalism. I consider this highly unlikely, but what about sabotage at the Florida end? 

I've heard suggestion of rainwater entering the engine somehow through the exhaust. Again my engine anatomy isn't great and I have a hard time seeing how that's possible?

MedSailor


----------



## Skipper Jer

"I've heard suggestion of rainwater entering the engine somehow through the exhaust."

That is why I suggested you taste the water in the Starbucks cup to determine fresh or salt.


----------



## Maine Sail

This is an oil cooler on a Lehman I was working on a few days ago. As can easily be seen it is smack dab in the middle of the RW circuit. RWP on right>oil cooler>hose to HX.

If the inner tube pack fails in the oil cooler sea water simply pushes into the oil circuit or oil into the exhaust/RW circuit.

With the engine running oil pressure would exceed sea water pressure and some oil will be expelled with the exhaust. When you kill the engine it works in reverse.. Pretty simple stuff. Please note that this oil cooler has been recently replaced. These failures are NOT uncommon.....


----------



## MedSailor

Captainmeme said:


> "I've heard suggestion of rainwater entering the engine somehow through the exhaust."
> 
> That is why I suggested you taste the water in the Starbucks cup to determine fresh or salt.




I've since realized you were serious, but when you first posted I thought you were kidding. I guess I should have some rum on standby to sanitize my mouth after attempting such diagnostics..... though having rum on standby sounds like a good idea for lots of reasons.

MedSailor


----------



## MedSailor

Maine Sail said:


> With the engine running oil pressure would exceed sea water pressure and some oil will be expelled with the exhaust. When you kill the engine it works in reverse.. Pretty simple stuff. Please note that this oil cooler has been recently replaced. These failures are NOT uncommon.....


Is there any feasable way to retrofit fit a keel cooler and dry exhaust before I replace my engine?

MedSailor


----------



## Maine Sail

MedSailor said:


> Is there any feasable way to retrofit fit a keel cooler and dry exhaust before I replace my engine?
> 
> MedSailor


The question I would be looking to find answers on is:

Does a Lehman, in your boat, even need an oil cooler...... ?

My shoot from the hip guess is that it may not even need it...

Those engines cary lots of oil and not all _applications_ really require an oil cooler....


----------



## miatapaul

Captainmeme said:


> "I've heard suggestion of rainwater entering the engine somehow through the exhaust."
> 
> That is why I suggested you taste the water in the Starbucks cup to determine fresh or salt.





MedSailor said:


> I've since realized you were serious, but when you first posted I thought you were kidding. I guess I should have some rum on standby to sanitize my mouth after attempting such diagnostics..... though having rum on standby sounds like a good idea for lots of reasons.
> 
> MedSailor


My thought was to taste it too, but I am sure there is enough emulsified oil in the water, that you may not be able to tell via taste. Perhaps better to test it for dissolved salt solids, I believe the testers that people use to test water from water makers are not expensive, and perhaps you could borrow one from a dock neighbor who has a tester.

Here is a diy tester:
Does Your Tap Water Have Salt in It? | Education.com

If you have an electronic meter you could test for resistance and compare to collected rain water (or tap water) and water from your marina. That would save you from tasting it. May not be definitive but should work. Just put a piece of plastic between the probes and hold together with a rubber band so you know they are the same distance apart. Push down into the Starbucks cup, and then do a sample of tap water, then sea water. Note I have never tried this, just kind of brain storming.


----------



## jimgo

I don't know that I'd put the leads in through the oil. I don't know the conductivity of the oil to say how the contamination might impact the readings.

Why not put the oil and water mixture into a fat separator and pour off the oil? Amazon.com: Norpro 3024 4-Cup Separator and Strainer: Measuring Cups: Kitchen & [email protected]@[email protected]@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/[email protected]@AMEPARA[email protected]@41Kd1Jr798L

Or poke a small hole in the bottom/side of the Starbucks cup and pour out the majority of the water (covering the hole before the oil spills out).

Or cover the end of a straw with a piece of plastic wrap, push the straw into the bottom, and suck it out with a turkey baster.

Or...

I do like the idea, though, of taking a sample of water from near the marina as a baseline for the impedance/conductivity reading. Same with some rain water.

To your earlier question about sabotage, I find that kind of interesting. The way the boat was handled when it was "disassembled" does kind of give that impression. But if someone put water in the system while it was in Florida, would the engine have started when it arrived at your marina?


----------



## MedSailor

jimgo said:


> I don't know that I'd put the leads in through the oil. I don't know the conductivity of the oil to say how the contamination might impact the readings.
> 
> Why not put the oil and water mixture into a fat separator and pour off the oil? Amazon.com: Norpro 3024 4-Cup Separator and Strainer: Measuring Cups: Kitchen & Dining
> 
> Or poke a small hole in the bottom/side of the Starbucks cup and pour out the majority of the water (covering the hole before the oil spills out).
> 
> Or cover the end of a straw with a piece of plastic wrap, push the straw into the bottom, and suck it out with a turkey baster.
> 
> Or...
> 
> I do like the idea, though, of taking a sample of water from near the marina as a baseline for the impedance/conductivity reading. Same with some rain water.
> 
> To your earlier question about sabotage, I find that kind of interesting. The way the boat was handled when it was "disassembled" does kind of give that impression. But if someone put water in the system while it was in Florida, would the engine have started when it arrived at your marina?


Not unless there is a way for water to get from the exhaust circuit to the oilpan without getting in, or staying in, the cylinders.

As Main_Sail has suggested, oil cooler failures are common, and when not running the water can siphon in.... but there are still some missing pieces. If that happened, it would have happned after I shutdown the engine from my 5 minute test. If so, how did the saltwater get up to the top of the engine to rust the valve arms? Then there's also the nagging fact of the cooler being proven to work in Florida and then failed after trucking, which some experts tell me is a coincidence and others say vibration may have played a role.

MedSailor


----------



## Capt Len

Regardless of your method of determining salinity have the rum close by. I would think that unless the Leyman is in a tug boat ,it could get by nicely without an oil cooler. That would leave you with a tranie cooler on the fresh water side .Gotta check all the zincs once in a while.


----------



## weinie

Pull the oil cooler off and pressure test it. The suspense is killing us!


----------



## Capt Len

On whose word was there no water in the cylinders? Was the head off when this was determined? It sounds like nasty oil/water was distributed thru out the last time the engine ran and continued to fill engine after shutdown.Left long enough the remaining oil would be in the bilge and later on the deck head (oil floats) so it could be worse. Longer it sits seized is closer to needing replacing. I once had a tech come to the boat to recharge the reefer.(watched closely) and I shopped for my sails. Everything else I can complain to the builder about. It's what I call 'an Appletons moment'


----------



## krisscross

miatapaul said:


> If you have an electronic meter you could test for resistance and compare to collected rain water (or tap water) and water from your marina. That would save you from tasting it. May not be definitive but should work. Just put a piece of plastic between the probes and hold together with a rubber band so you know they are the same distance apart. Push down into the Starbucks cup, and then do a sample of tap water, then sea water. Note I have never tried this, just kind of brain storming.


I work in a lab and we do conductivity testing all the time, using conductivity probes and very sensitive meters, but your method as above should work reasonably well. Keep the probes close to one another, not more then 1/4" apart, and make sure the meter reading is steady. Tap water will have high resistivity, brackish water will have fairly low reading and salt water will read close to zero.
Tasting bottom water from an oil pan is flat out dangerous, as antifreeze and heavy metals are very bad for you. And that bitter taste described earlier can be anything (most likely anything but good for you and your engine).

To the OP: sorry for your troubles and expense. I can imagine how frustrating it must be. As a general rule I do not trust people, and I double check what I can before I use things, especially if they are expensive. Checking oil in your engine after that big move would have been something I would have done if it was my boat.


----------



## jimgo

Kriss, if you put the exposed leads into the stuff in the Starbucks cup, won't you potentially coat the leads in oil? I see that oil isn't conductive (Why is oil not a conductor of electricity), so won't a coating of oil give you bad readings? Shouldn't you separate the water first?

Sorry, not trying to start a debate/derail Med's thread, just curious since you have more experience at this than me.


----------



## Maine Sail

MedSailor said:


> Not unless there is a way for water to get from the exhaust circuit to the oilpan without getting in, or staying in, the cylinders.
> 
> As Main_Sail has suggested, oil cooler failures are common, and when not running the water can siphon in.... but there are still some missing pieces. If that happened, it would have happned after I shutdown the engine from my 5 minute test. If so, how did the saltwater get up to the top of the engine to rust the valve arms? Then there's also the nagging fact of the cooler being proven to work in Florida and then failed after trucking, which some experts tell me is a coincidence and others say vibration may have played a role.
> 
> MedSailor


Moisture inside an engine, especially salt water, will try and escape through evaporation any way it can. As temps change it can condensate out and rust all the internals. The layer of oil on top of the water helps minimize this but if you ran the motor, with any water in the oil, now the water/salt is everywhere oil should be.....


----------



## MedSailor

krisscross said:


> Tasting bottom water from an oil pan is flat out dangerous, as antifreeze and heavy metals are very bad for you. And that bitter taste described earlier can be anything (most likely anything but good for you and your engine).


I thought the suggestion to taste it was a joke, so I responded with a joke. Bitter, as it bitter defeat.... I'll try harder with the humor on the next go round.



MedSailor


----------



## Skipper Jer

Here is another idea. Take a big sample of the water/oil mixture. Let it sit, decant or poke a hole in the bottom to get the water. Collect the water in a sauce pan. I'd taste it at this point but for those who are afraid of the bogey man in the water, boil it, or microwave it. Now taste the water or boil all the water off then taste the deposits. How many of us have siphoned gas and got a mouth full of the stuff? We are still on this side of the grass. The take away from this is "taste, don't swallow"

Edit: Yes I did understand the reference to the bitter taste of disappointment/defeat.


----------



## casey1999

Med 
I am reading this post hoping to learn something, and I have. Now feel totally free to ignore my post, and I don't me to offend you. However I assume you are a doctor and carry a large malpractice insurance. It seems as if you are hell bent in finding someone to blame for the water in the oil, and have insurance cover the damage. How would you feel if you patients did that? when I had my first son, the doctor screwed up big time, actually several doctors, my son almost died, but recovered after a week in the nicu. I was told by knowledgable people I could sue, but I did not. the docs where not malicious , just made mistakes. I moved on and happy I did. Not sure where you are in this fiasco, but if it were me I'd pull the engine and get her done.


----------



## MedSailor

MedSailor said:


> ...
> I'm not sure we're going to find someone to clearly fault here:
> -Was it me for ignoring a non urgent survey finding before turning the key for the first time? I don't think so.
> -Was it the surveyor for not knowing it was about to fail but not making it an urgent/immediate finding? No, I don't think so.
> -Was it the trucker for going over bumps? No.
> 
> Whatever caused this is a collection and combination of very unlikely events that would have been difficult to mitigate and a bad thing happened. Sometimes unlikely stuff happens and you still get burned. Hopefully that's what insurance is for...
> 
> MedSailor


Casey,

I think you're conflating the idea of blame and insurance. As I said above, I really don't think there's anyone to blame here. I DO hope that MY insurance pays for the damage, but that has nothing to do with blame. I don't think anyone has committed malpractice upon my boat with this engine issue (though they clearly did with the pedistal).

What I have here with the boat is more like your family health insurance than malpractice. If you get cancer, it's nobody's fault and the insurance you pay for pays out.

If insurance payouts were only about events where someone is to blame, then all any of us would need is liability insurance. Certainly that is an option. I could have only had liability only, or no insurance at all, and if anyone wronged my boat, then their insurance would make it right.

Instead, like with a car policy, I have comprehensive coverage. If lightning strikes the boat, I'm not going to go after God's insurance, I rely on the extra money I paid for comprehensive coverage.

I searched for a good policy that does include things like catastrophic engine failures and it wasn't the cheapest insurance out there, but I chose it based on this kind of coverage. I did this because I would rather pay an extra $500 every year, wether I need it or not, so that IF I have a $25,000 loss I won't have to absorb the cost. I found an insurance company that also was willing to take the bet.

Lightening and hurricanes are really cut and dry. All the stress of late is because even after reading my policy, I'm not sure this is covered that's all. I'm currently in a position where I do NOT have the time to rebuild it cheaply myself, and if insurance doesn't pay I can't afford a new engine. It wouldn't be a good position to be in, so I tried to mitigate that risk with the high-quality insurance I bought.

MedSailor


----------



## jimgo

When do you expect to hear from the insurance adjuster?


----------



## casey1999

Med,
some post back you stated you leave the engine raw water valve opened all the time. I wonder if the valve had been shut when the engine is not running if that would have prevented the water entering the oil sump. In any case always best to keep valve shut while not in use.


----------



## MedSailor

jimgo said:


> When do you expect to hear from the insurance adjuster?


Hopefully before the ulcer perforates.



casey1999 said:


> Med,
> some post back you stated you leave the engine raw water valve opened all the time. I wonder if the valve had been shut when the engine is not running if that would have prevented the water entering the oil sump. In any case always best to keep valve shut while not in use.


Maybe. If what everyone says about oil pressure keeping the water out of the oil when the engine is running, then yes, in theory if the raw water valve was always closed when not running, and open when running then no backflow of seawater would occur.

However.... The advice on the other thread to close seacocks was advised for those that leave their boat for an extended period of time. In my experience with siphons and things below the waterline, they happen pretty quickly. So IF one was to close their raw water intake IMMEDIATELY after shutdown and only open it JUST BEFORE starting, then it could be prevented. Who here would be willing to go below and close the valve once the sails are up, for example? Nobody does it now I would bet.

I guess I think that the raw water valve could have theoretically been used to prevent this, but _in practice _I don't think so.

MedSailor


----------



## casey1999

MedSailor said:


> Casey,
> 
> I think you're conflating the idea of blame and insurance. As I said above, I really don't think there's anyone to blame here. I DO hope that MY insurance pays for the damage, but that has nothing to do with blame. I don't think anyone has committed malpractice upon my boat with this engine issue (though they clearly did with the pedistal).
> 
> What I have here with the boat is more like your family health insurance than malpractice. If you get cancer, it's nobody's fault and the insurance you pay for pays out.
> 
> If insurance payouts were only about events where someone is to blame, then all any of us would need is liability insurance. Certainly that is an option. I could have only had liability only, or no insurance at all, and if anyone wronged my boat, then their insurance would make it right.
> 
> Instead, like with a car policy, I have comprehensive coverage. If lightning strikes the boat, I'm not going to go after God's insurance, I rely on the extra money I paid for comprehensive coverage.
> 
> I searched for a good policy that does include things like catastrophic engine failures and it wasn't the cheapest insurance out there, but I chose it based on this kind of coverage. I did this because I would rather pay an extra $500 every year, wether I need it or not, so that IF I have a $25,000 loss I won't have to absorb the cost. I found an insurance company that also was willing to take the bet.
> 
> Lightening and hurricanes are really cut and dry. All the stress of late is because even after reading my policy, I'm not sure this is covered that's all. I'm currently in a position where I do NOT have the time to rebuild it cheaply myself, and if insurance doesn't pay I can't afford a new engine. It wouldn't be a good position to be in, so I tried to mitigate that risk with the high-quality insurance I bought.
> 
> MedSailor


Rodger that-did not realize you had catastrophic failure insurance.


----------



## casey1999

MedSailor said:


> Hopefully before the ulcer perforates.
> 
> Maybe. If what everyone says about oil pressure keeping the water out of the oil when the engine is running, then yes, in theory if the raw water valve was always closed when not running, and open when running then no backflow of seawater would occur.
> 
> However.... The advice on the other thread to close seacocks was advised for those that leave their boat for an extended period of time. In my experience with siphons and things below the waterline, they happen pretty quickly. So IF one was to close their raw water intake IMMEDIATELY after shutdown and only open it JUST BEFORE starting, then it could be prevented. Who here would be willing to go below and close the valve once the sails are up, for example? Nobody does it now I would bet.
> 
> I guess I think that the raw water valve could have theoretically been used to prevent this, but _in practice _I don't think so.
> 
> MedSailor


I do shut the valve after I flush the engine with fresh water at the dock. At shut down I check oil level. After I leave the dock, and while sailing short passages, I leave the valve open in case I need to run engine in emergency, long passage I would close. Just think a broken raw water hose could sink your boat at the dock if the valve is left open.


----------



## Capt Len

It only takes a few hrs of failed vacuum break to nasty an engine. Thane operated for years in stop and go charter.Nothing got beyond the sucking vacuum break unless the engine was running and nofear of flooding as muffler drained automatically . Not once in 40 years did I have to replace a failed impeller .Maybe too complicated for some but I've made a lot of money fixing others problems so far be it for me to advocate changing your pipes on your new engine Hope it works out. Insurance should cough up and all will be good.


----------



## krisscross

jimgo said:


> Kriss, if you put the exposed leads into the stuff in the Starbucks cup, won't you potentially coat the leads in oil? I see that oil isn't conductive (Why is oil not a conductor of electricity), so won't a coating of oil give you bad readings? Shouldn't you separate the water first?
> 
> Sorry, not trying to start a debate/derail Med's thread, just curious since you have more experience at this than me.


Good point, I should have mentioned that. Oil will 'shock' the conductivity probe rendering it unusable until cleaned off, so the oil layer needs to be removed.


----------



## krisscross

MedSailor said:


> I thought the suggestion to taste it was a joke, so I responded with a joke. Bitter, as it bitter defeat.... I'll try harder with the humor on the next go round.
> 
> 
> 
> MedSailor


I get it now. My bad. Given the set of characters frequenting this forum, just about anything written here can be true... or not.


----------



## davidpm

miatapaul said:


> If you have an electronic meter you could test for resistance and compare to collected rain water (or tap water) and water from your marina. That would save you from tasting it. May not be definitive but should work. Just put a piece of plastic between the probes and hold together with a rubber band so you know they are the same distance apart. Push down into the Starbucks cup, and then do a sample of tap water, then sea water. Note I have never tried this, just kind of brain storming.


I have tried this and couldn't get it to work with any reliability. I was all excited when I thought I found a new diagnostic trick but sadly I couldn't get it to work.


----------



## davidpm

MedSailor said:


> I don't think anyone has committed malpractice upon my boat with this engine issue (though they clearly did with the pedistal).


Coincidences happen all the time. I really don't like them though. They make me very suspicious.

Could our wire cutter experts had started the engine dry for a few minutes, maybe to pressurize the hydraulics or maybe for no reason at all just because they are idiots.

As MS says this would cause water in the cylinders and only a little in the oil pan.

But still having people like that working on your boat, they would be capable of anything.

Based on what I know of some yard workers they may have been high, drunk or stoned.

You might have to really think out of the box to even imagine what they would do. Maybe they thought your oil coolers were part of the hydraulic system and did something with them.

No proof of course but the sequence of events makes one think that some pieces of the puzzle are missing.


----------



## Chas H

I have two questions about the oil and water flow through the Ford Lehman system. 
1. Is oil under pressure from the pump to the cooler before it goes back into the engine oil galleries? 
2. Does raw water cool the oil and does the same water pump cool the engine coolant through another heat exchanger?

OK, three questions.
-CH


----------



## MedSailor

Chas H said:


> I have two questions about the oil and water flow through the Ford Lehman system.
> 1. Is oil under pressure from the pump to the cooler before it goes back into the engine oil galleries?
> 2. Does raw water cool the oil and does the same water pump cool the engine coolant through another heat exchanger?
> 
> OK, three questions.
> -CH


1. I'm not certain on the sequence of pump, cooler, filter, galleries etc but it stands to reason that in order to get oil to flow through the cooler (and not just sit in it) it shouls be under pressure from the oil pump.

2. Yes. Salt water cooled oil cooler and in the same circuit salt water cools the engine coolant through another exchanger.


----------



## Bob142

Yes the sequence can change with different systems but the oil in the cooler is always under pressure when the engine is running...That is why people were saying that normally when a cooler fails you get oil in the water rather then water in the oil...It is possible with the engine shut off and the position of the cooler with respect to sea level providing head pressure, water may be able to get past the pump and or filter and find it's way to the oil sump...


----------



## Minnewaska

This is like waiting for the next episode of a mini-series.

Cut that oil cooler open yet?


----------



## MedSailor

Minnewaska said:


> This is like waiting for the next episode of a mini-series.
> 
> Cut that oil cooler open yet?


There's an idea. If insurance doesn't pay, I could sell the rights for a daytime TV movie. I'll only sell out however if the part of MedSailor is played by Hugh Jackman opposite some Hollywood babes and I would insist on a "steamy" sauna scene. 

Haven't cut open the cooler yet. I want to do that with the insurance surveyor present. I'm calling him this morning to try and schedule my survey.

MedSailor


----------



## MedSailor

Bob142 said:


> Yes the sequence can change with different systems but the oil in the cooler is always under pressure when the engine is running...That is why people were saying that normally when a cooler fails you get oil in the water rather then water in the oil...It is possible with the engine shut off and the position of the cooler with respect to sea level providing head pressure, water may be able to get past the pump and or filter and find it's way to the oil sump...


Oil coolers fail, but rarely destroy engines I gather. A friend of mine who just sold his boat found out at survey his that his was leaking, but no engine damage. So am I the only one with the cooler/engine mounted below the waterline? I kind of doubt it.

Something is missing here....

MedSailor


----------



## MedSailor

davidpm said:


> *Coincidences happen all the time. I really don't like them though. They make me very suspicious.*
> 
> Could our wire cutter experts had started the engine dry for a few minutes, maybe to pressurize the hydraulics or maybe for no reason at all just because they are idiots.
> 
> As MS says this would cause water in the cylinders and only a little in the oil pan.
> 
> But still having people like that working on your boat, they would be capable of anything.
> 
> Based on what I know of some yard workers they may have been high, drunk or stoned.
> 
> *You might have to really think out of the box to even imagine what they would do.* Maybe they thought your oil coolers were part of the hydraulic system and did something with them.
> 
> *No proof of course but the sequence of events makes one think that some pieces of the puzzle are missing.*


I like the way you think. You can play on my team anytime!

Here's a thought. The local yard DID changed the dripless packing out because it was 5 years old. I have learned through the college of Sailnet that it's good to stay ahead of one of those failing. There is a line in the engine's raw water circuit that feeds the packing gland and the yard would have messed with it. Any chance that incorrectly connecting or replacing that line could have put oil in my water?

Here's another thought. IF the failure mode of oil coolers is NOT to put water in the oil, maybe the cooler was already in a failed condition at the time of the survey and is not to blame for any of this...

I'm just casting the net wider here before I commit to a specific diagnosis. The working theory is still the most likely but is surely isn't a satisfying diagnosis and involves too many unlikely coincidences...

MedSailor


----------



## Capt Len

If the' packing gland' is feed by a line in the raw water side ???? doesn't that have the potential to flood everything connected to the interior of the boat thru the shaft log.? I'm kinda old fashioned and prefer the slowly failing flax type. A couple of gallons of water in the bilge is nothing unless it came in thru an open exhaust valve past the rings,albeit slowly, and out the dipstick.


----------



## casey1999

MedSailor said:


> There's an idea. If insurance doesn't pay, I could sell the rights for a daytime TV movie. I'll only sell out however if the part of MedSailor is played by Hugh Jackman opposite some Hollywood babes and I would insist on a "steamy" sauna scene.
> 
> Haven't cut open the cooler yet. I want to do that with the insurance surveyor present. I'm calling him this morning to try and schedule my survey.
> 
> MedSailor


Instead of cutting open, just put low pressure air on one side and then the other (water then oil side)and see if there are any leaks Say 10 psi (use hand air pump as too not over pressurize)or as spec by oil cooler. Attach accurate pressure gage and look for pressure drop. Spray outside with soapy water to test for external leaks. This way you do not destroy evidence. Cutting open you may or may not see a leak.


----------



## Capt Len

An oil cooler has to be able to handle more pressure than that. How about a water filled garden hose hoisted up the mast.? iIf the oil side gets wet it's toast.


----------



## casey1999

Capt Len said:


> An oil cooler has to be able to handle more pressure than that. How about a water filled garden hose hoisted up the mast.? iIf the oil side gets wet it's toast.


With air you can put as much or as little press as you like, 150 psi with an air comp if you like. Hose up a mast will give you no more than 25psig. Oil press side operating is around 50 psi. But a failure by siphon would only put maybe 3 psi and no more on the cooler. No need to blow the cooler at test.


----------



## davidpm

Med 
Is their any chance that at any time during the move the boat was subjected to freezing temperatures?


----------



## davidpm

Med
So lets say that the insurance company decides that the damage is due to a failed oil cooler.

The insurance is for accidents not for parts that fail due to old age.

Therefore they say you are not covered 

You say that the failure of an oil cooler does not typically cause the engine to need a rebuild.

Since is was an unforeseeable specific accidental set of circumstances they are responsible for the engine you are responsible for the oil coolers.

A partial payment is due.


----------



## MedSailor

For the viewing audience at large, here's the latest:

The insurance surveyor and I talked for 30min or so, and he doesn't like the oil cooler theory at all, and also doesn't like the circumstances in general. It's hard for him to believe that an engine was in good condition and surveyed well, went for a trucking ride with no issues reported, ran for 5 minutes and is now toast. He doesn't think this is going to be quick or easy to figure out.

That makes 2 of us.

So, what he has requested, on behalf of the insurance company who hired him, is to haul the boat, and have the engine removed in as much of an intact condition as possible for a full autopsy on the bench. He wants to be there when they pull every part and he wants to get all CSI on this issue.










Good news for SailNet, as this will likely continue to provide compelling reading for a while. Also, hopefully, we'll get a definitive and satisfying diagnosis (that we can all learn from) when it's all over with. Will it be a happy ending or a sad one for MedSailor? Stay tuned....

Spoiler alert! In the end, I'll make sure it's a happy ending. Boats are important to me, and if it means sacrificing my kids college fund, so be it, the new boat deserves a new engine, be it one paid for partially by insurance or paid for by me.

Here's a shot of us in the water with our new lifelines, new lee cloths, new graphic, new running rigging. Doesn't she look nice in the water? Dead in the water yes, but in the water at least...









MedSailor


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## Minnewaska

David,

Are you speaking about Med's policy from experience or knowledge or just just trying to provide hope?

I don't think insurance contracts work the way you are describing. If the cause is not covered, the subsequent damage is not covered either is my understanding. For example, say you have a corroded thru-hull that falls off and sinks your boat, without consequential damage coverage. That does not mean that you have to pick up the tab for the new thru-hull and insurance pays for the boat.

Big, big question for Med is whether his policy has consequential damage coverage. Most do not, especially very old hulls. All should have it, but it can be pricey.


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## MedSailor

If water was never in my cylinders, how did my injector get so corroded?










THIS can't be good....









I'm really looking forward to the autopsy. As for if it's covered or not, I'm trying to just let that one go and let the gods decide. Even if I knew the cause, I don't hardly know my policy well enough (after reading it 10 times) or how the language is really interpreted to know. So, we'll find a cause and see if it's covered.


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## casey1999

You are a sailor-don't need a stinkin engine...


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## T37Chef

ouch, they look bad, but I would think able to be rebuilt? Worth it, that's the bigger question I suppose


----------



## casey1999

Med , the pics a while back about how the yard hacked your boat prior to hauling. That was pretty bad, were they thinking the boat was to be scrapped? I cannot imagine what went on. Even an inexperienced yard worker would have a supervisor inspecting the work.


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## MedSailor

casey1999 said:


> You are a sailor-don't need a stinkin engine...


But I'm a _closet powerboater_ and I bought a _motorsailor_!

Chef, Unfortunately the cost of a rebuild is the same as a new Yanmar. Strange but true. The rebuild only comes with a 6 month warranty as well, which is a bit thin if you ask me.

MedSailor


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## Skipper Jer

At least you get the engine pulled for FREE!!!!!


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## casey1999

Med,
While your at it pump the fuel tank and have surveyor inspect the fuel pumped out (does it have water in it?). Also clean and inspect the tank and replace all fuel lines while your at it, if they are 1985 vintage they are due for replacement.

Beta engines are getting good reviews also and may be less expensive than Yanmar. In any case, a new engine is going to save you a lot of fuel expenses.
Good luck


----------



## casey1999

Med,
On the boat diesel forum there was this post. I am not a member, but maybe someone else is an can offer what response was, or it may be worth the $25 membership.

http://boatdiesel.com/Forums/index.cfm?CFAPP=114&Forum_ID=104&ShowTopic=27240

Ford Lehman Date: 09 May, 2007 - 01:16 AM

TOPIC: [27240] 
Water in Oil

Aloha forum members. My Ford Lehman SP90 has water in oil, oh no! Upon commencement of pumping oil from the sump during recent oil change there was approximately 2 litres of water at bottom of sump and remaining oil was milky colour and very thick. I am not loosing any fresh water from fresh water cooling system and therefore suspect contamination by raw water. I have bypassed the oil cooler and problem still exists and therefore not a leak in the oil cooler. I suspect water may be syphoning into the engine via the exhaust manifold? Engine is difficult to start each day due to hydrolock (water is therefore entering cylinders and possible oil contamination thereafter). After flushing contaminated oil and replacing with new, oil was perfect for couple of days then on one occasion water intake rapid during one event i.e. no gradual increase of water/oil level rather one off events. Can anyone offer fault diagnosis and further action? Hoping it is not head gasket or craked engine block etc... could be an expensive trip to Dr Lehman.......

Another post may be of interest:

http://boatdiesel.com/Forums/index.cfm?CFAPP=114&Forum_ID=104&Thread_ID=29525

FORUM: 
Ford Lehman Date: 05 October, 2007 - 12:17 AM

TOPIC: [29525] 
Raw water siphoning

Ford Lehman Super 90 (1985). If the raw water sea **** (thru-hull) is left open for apporximately 1 hour or more when the engine is not running, the engine will hydrolock next time try and start. The engine starts perfectly (no hydrolock) each time if the raw water sea **** is closed when the engine is not running. Can anyone suggest possible cause for this problem? I was thinking likely cause at either the exhaust elbow or raw water (jabsco) pump?


----------



## single2coil

Hang in there. I feel for your troubles. BTW: Anacortes is a great place. Small paradise. I went to high school there. Thought I was in heaven. 

Like the previous gent said: get more than one opinion. Mechanics see $$$ Ka-Ching.


----------



## miatapaul

casey1999 said:


> Med,
> While your at it pump the fuel tank and have surveyor inspect the fuel pumped out (does it have water in it?). Also clean and inspect the tank and replace all fuel lines while your at it, if they are 1985 vintage they are due for replacement.
> 
> Beta engines are getting good reviews also and may be less expensive than Yanmar. In any case, a new engine is going to save you a lot of fuel expenses.
> Good luck


Unfortunately the 90 horsepower he has kind of falls between the Beta 75 and 105, with the 105 being turbo. He falls into the same gap with Yanmar, with real advantage going to the Beta 75 being normally aspirated while both Yanmar's are turbos. John Deer does make a 84 HP normally aspirated motor but I am not familiar with them. Seems he will be limited to a turbo motor unless he wants to give up some power. It is kind of a shame that he has not had a chance to use the boat with the old motor. I would be very tempted to go rebuild just so I did not have to deal with a turbo. Seems the old motor could be worked on in any corner of the world, Yanmar/Beta not as much.


----------



## Skipper Jer

Sitting here watching the rain come down I recalled the Bumfuzzles had a similar problem with a Ford Lehman engine. They too had water in the oil. You can read all the hoops Pat jumped through or you can jump here Bumfuzzle » It?s a Hole to see the cause.


----------



## Maine Sail

Med,

You need to pressure test that oil cooler to rule it in or out. This takes all of two minutes and should have been done before the top end came apart. 

Remove from engine
Connect garden hose to one end (some adapters/hose clamps is all you need)
A valve to the other (same as above)
Mostly close outlet valve (allows it to build pressure but not too much)
Leave oil ports open/unobstructed
Turn on hose and watch for any water coming out the oil ports
If any water comes out the oil ports from the raw water side it is junk


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## MedSailor

Spawning a new thread about what engine I should put in next. Click below and come help me pour more money into my boat!

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-maintenance/170578-turn-frown-upside-down-lets-talk-new-engines.html#post2276514










Something like this, ought to be good for a closet powerboater like me!









MedSailor


----------



## MedSailor

Maine Sail said:


> Med,
> 
> You need to pressure test that oil cooler to rule it in or out. This takes all of two minutes and should have been done before the top end came apart.
> 
> Remove from engine
> Connect garden hose to one end (some adapters/hose clamps is all you need)
> A valve to the other (same as above)
> Mostly close outlet valve (allows it to build pressure but not too much)
> Leave oil ports open/unobstructed
> Turn on hose and watch for any water coming out the oil ports
> If any water comes out the oil ports from the raw water side it is junk


I was told it was "tested" and that it "had failed". I don't know the details, but I agree that if a hose is connected and water starts barfing out the oil ports, that would be mighty compelling. The forensic surveyor isn't keen on receiving much diagnostic input from me but I'll want to make sure this test is done for sure.

MedSailor


----------



## casey1999

Maybe you could figure a way to "marinize" this engine:


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## MedSailor

casey1999 said:


> Maybe you could figure a way to "marinize" this engine:


I would, but I fear it's already been done. 










MedSailor


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## weinie

MedSailor said:


> I would, but I fear it's already been done.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MedSailor


lol


----------



## MedSailor

Captainmeme said:


> At least you get the engine pulled for FREE!!!!!


I wasn't sure this was going to be true, but today Safeco told me that they will pay all costs to pull the engine and investigate. They'll also pay for the labor incurred so far to pull the injectors and diagnose what we know now.

Yay Safeco. I may become a lifetime customer, and Safeco, if you're reading this, I promise that I'm not a high-risk customer! Once I actually get the boat in my possession and start maintaining it I plan to never need to claim anything! Heck, I just spent a bunch of money the other week replacing my extinguishers with genuine Halon ones, and buying an auto engine room fire suppression system.

I may be reading too much into this, but hopefully their willingness to pay for the investigation means that there is some likelihood that they'll pay for this catastrophic engine damage.

MedSailor


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## TQA

In the UK I was a vehicle assessor and sometimes asked to arbitrate in disputes.

If this had happened to a car [ c'mon use your imagination ] and the it was decided to fit a new engine rather than repair the old one " betterment " would be applied. If the engine had a projected life of say 10,000 hours and had done 6,000 then the car owner would have to stump up 60% of the cost of the new engine and ancillaries.

Does this get applied in the USA?


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## MedSailor

I believe it does on most policies. I've been calling it depreciation. Basically if my engine is new and blows up they owe me a new one. If the engine is old and well worn they pay a percentage.

My policy does depreciate the engine if it is over 10 years old. My engine is 1985 but it's hours are only 1450 and the projected life is easily 10k. Not sure how they'll do the math on that but even if the cause of failure is covered I'm not expecting them to pay 100% of the cost of a shiny new motor.

Med


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## mitiempo

MedSailor said:


> .... I just spent a bunch of money the other week replacing my extinguishers with genuine Halon ones....MedSailor


Halon? Banned in fire extinguishers (with military exceptions) years ago.


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## MedSailor

Yup. Halon 1211. Works better than anything else. Accept no substitute!!

Actually the Montreal Treaty banned its manufacturer forever due to its horrific ozone depleting properties but in a rare act of temperance the treaty recognized also the amazing firefighting qualities and life saving potential of the stuff. It therefore allowed existing stocks to exist and be re-bottled (you can't easily dispose of it anyway). So the halon in my new auto system and my new extinguisher was probably made in the 80s. 

Funny thing is, a cheap dry chemical extinguisher from home Depot is nearly as effective but if I fired it off in my engine compartment the aftermath (corrosive fallout) would result in an insurance claim for a new engjne and all new wiring. The extra money spent on halon might save the insurance company money one day. 

Not entirely selfless of an act though. I'd rather spray the halon, fix minor damage and move on with life than spend months dealing with insurance again.

Medsailor

PS Stay tuned for an informative thread soon on fire extinguishers and boats. I've learned a lot lately about this important topic and I think it's knowledge worth sharing.


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## smackdaddy

MedSailor said:


> I would, but I fear it's already been done.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MedSailor


Jeez - that sailboat _screams_ with only a tiny scrap of jib out. I gotta get me one of those!


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## MedSailor

smackdaddy said:


> Jeez - that sailboat _screams_ with only a tiny scrap of jib out. I gotta get me one of those!


Don't you already have one? The MacGregor 26 is a type of Hunter isn't it?


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## smackdaddy

MedSailor said:


> Don't you already have one? The MacGregor 26 is a type of Hunter isn't it?


You heartless (Hunterless) bastard!


----------



## capecodda

Hey you guys, none of us can water ski behind our boats....so there!!!


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## capecodda

MedSailor said:


> Spawning a new thread about what engine I should put in next. Click below and come help me pour more money into my boat!
> 
> http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-maintenance/170578-turn-frown-upside-down-lets-talk-new-engines.html#post2276514
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Something like this, ought to be good for a closet powerboater like me!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MedSailor


Wait, then again, I think if MED props this correctly, he'll be able to do one of those cypress gardens water ski shows whilst enjoying the on board sauna. Now that's living


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## ccriders

smackdaddy said:


> Jeez - that sailboat _screams_ with only a tiny scrap of jib out. I gotta get me one of those!


I'll trade you even steven for your Hunter.
John


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## Capt Len

When CCG required me to install fire suppression on Thane I choose (actually directed) the state of the art Halon, double tank double pull because it's wood and we all know how well wood burns. That was four grand and I installed it myself. Yearly inspection, including weighing the tanks was required. Wasn't long before CG tells me it's banned now and must be donated to the military. Whole system junk because not compatible with the the new state of the art FM gas. An other 4 grand for a double tank system. Good thing they certify my work so I saved a bundle. Would have gone for CO2 but required tanks so much bigger couldn't find the room.All the big boats do high pressure mist now but not practical for the smaller vessel.


----------



## MedSailor

Capt Len said:


> When CCG required me to install fire suppression on Thane I choose (actually directed) the state of the art Halon, double tank double pull because it's wood and we all know how well wood burns. That was four grand and I installed it myself. Yearly inspection, including weighing the tanks was required. *Wasn't long before CG tells me it's banned now and must be donated to the military. *Whole system junk because not compatible with the the new state of the art FM gas. An other 4 grand for a double tank system. Good thing they certify my work so I saved a bundle. Would have gone for CO2 but required tanks so much bigger couldn't find the room.All the big boats do high pressure mist now but not practical for the smaller vessel.


Whaaa?  That's strange. Maybe it is banned up in Canada, but that sure would be strange because the treaty adressing halon is called The Montreal Protocol. I hope that you saught primary source verification before scrapping your system. Officers at the enforcement level are often not as up to snuff on the details of the laws they enforce as we'd like them to be. 
MedSailor


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## jrd22

Med- not familiar with your engine so this may not apply but some raw water pumps are gear driven and the seal can fail on the engine side and allow water in. Just a thought, but yours is probably an external pump.


----------



## Capt Len

Med, I was carrying passengers. A whole new category of bureaucracy called dept of transport, ships safety..When dealing with them you address them as yer lordship and touch your forelock. Because I was 22 tonnes and 18 pass. I followed the same list as the Queen of Burnaby. The Coho gets off easy because it's registered in US. And vessels like Martha have nearly a free ticket on safety stuff. (raft)


----------



## MedSailor

Capt Len said:


> Med, I was carrying passengers. A whole new category of bureaucracy called dept of transport, ships safety..When dealing with them you address them as yer lordship and touch your forelock. Because I was 22 tonnes and 18 pass. I followed the same list as the Queen of Burnaby. The Coho gets off easy because it's registered in US. And vessels like Martha have nearly a free ticket on safety stuff. (raft)


Understood. Now it all makes sense.

MedSailor


----------



## Barquito

MedSailor said:


> I would, but I fear it's already been done.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MedSailor


That picture always makes me vomit just a little in my mouth. No offense to owners of that hybrid, or the stink-potters from whence it was birthed. Just doesn't fit my world view.


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## casey1999

Barquito said:


> That picture always makes me vomit just a little in my mouth. No offense to owners of that hybrid, or the stink-potters from whence it was birthed. Just doesn't fit my world view.


I had a friend on chesapeake bay that had McGregor 26. He kind of liked it. He could sail as far as he wanted from Friday evening until Sunday afternoon, then hightail it back to its mooring so he could be at work monday morning- it widened up his cruising range quite a bit.


----------



## smackdaddy

casey1999 said:


> I had a friend on chesapeake bay that had McGregor 26. He kind of liked it. He could sail as far as he wanted from Friday evening until Sunday afternoon, then hightail it back to its mooring so he could be at work monday morning- it widened up his cruising range quite a bit.


You've got it backwards. What it really means is that he had to spend more time on a McGregor. No thanks.


----------



## casey1999

smackdaddy said:


> You've got it backwards. What it really means is that he had to spend more time on a McGregor. No thanks.


Well, he always had several chicks on board as his crew and they seemed to enjoy the ride... So I am sure he did too...
Those were the days before the GoPro crowd- so sorry now vids for the BFS...


----------



## Minnewaska

MedSailor said:


> I.....I may be reading too much into this, but hopefully their willingness to pay for the investigation means that there is some likelihood that they'll pay for this catastrophic engine damage.
> 
> MedSailor


You don't need your bubble burst, but be careful. The company that will have to pay you is doing the investigation. Sound conflicted? Do you think they would accept you doing your own and just paying whatever you find?

I can work out fine, just keep your eyes open. Good luck.


----------



## casey1999

Med,
I am curious as to how it is working with the insurance company. Apparently you and the insure company agreed to pull the engine and then they take the engine apart to find out what went wrong. Have you and the insure company both agreed the engine is a total loss and there is no way it will be rebuilt? Otherwise will the investigation destroy the engine or is there potential it could be rebuilt. In other words it appears you and the insure company have both agreed the existing engine is shot and a new engine needs to be installed (and it has not decided who will pay at at what percentage). If this is the case, is it in writing? Just tryiing to understand how this works in case I ever run into the same problem.


----------



## Capt Len

When I bent a couple of rods one time , engine ran but not up to snuff. my insurance paid and even paid me an hourly wage to re and re .As my deductable was 5 grand that was a big help and in the end we each paid half.


----------



## mitiempo

Barquito said:


> That picture always makes me vomit just a little in my mouth. No offense to owners of that hybrid, or the stink-potters from whence it was birthed. Just doesn't fit my world view.


But you can water ski behind it.


----------



## casey1999

Capt Len said:


> When I bent a couple of rods one time , engine ran but not up to snuff. my insurance paid and even paid me an hourly wage to re and re .As my deductable was 5 grand that was a big help and in the end we each paid half.


How is it that boat insurance is different than auto insurance? I am not sure that auto insurance would ever cover a bent rod. Does all comprehensive boat insurance cover the engine or do only certain policy types or certain insurance companies? I could see if you hit an object in the water with your prop and bent the rods it would be covered. How were the rods bent?


----------



## Capt Len

Casey,I've mentioned the importance of shut down before on other thread .My engine room is well sound insulated and so difficult to know when engine is running. Stop is by pull cable. If you time it just right you can release cable prematurely,engine hiccups and sucks back a goodly dollop of exhaust water. Hence the bent con rods. Expensive and so easy. I've installed engines from Kermaths and Budas,,,4 108's to GMC locomotives and big Volvos in really tough installations but screwing my own engine over like that was annoying.If I had planned it better I would have had a smaller deductible.


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## MedSailor

Minnewaska said:


> You don't need your bubble burst, but be careful. The company that will have to pay you is doing the investigation. Sound conflicted? Do you think they would accept you doing your own and just paying whatever you find?
> 
> I can work out fine, just keep your eyes open. Good luck.


I appreciate your cautionary advice. I feel okay though, with how things are proceeding. The surveyor is accredited in the usual manner and while he is hired by the insurance company, he is supposed to be impartial.

When you think of it, insurance is always in a conflicted position regarding paying their client. If your car is wrecked, they send an estimator, who works for them, and hopefully pay out. I don't pretend to understand how insruance decided who to pay and who not to. I don't know if it's 100% lawer-style interpretation of the contract, or if they have wiggle room one way or the other, but I know if a company never pays out for legit claims they'll get a bad reputation, and if a company is generous with payouts (like USAA) they'll get a good reputaion. Again, not sure how that plays out in practice, but I have faith. This is the same adjuster and surveyor that decided the damage done by Mack Sails when de-rigging my boat was covered.

Casey,

I'm happy to help others learn from my misfortune. Ask away! So far the way this has worked is I filed a claim, they hired a surveyor and he and I talked. He determined that a short, in the water survey would be insufficient for determining what really happened and he and I agreed that the engine, while not totalled, is beyond the point of being repaired in situ. He therefore suggested that we pull the motor "because it has to come out anyway for a rebuild or replacement," and do the investigations on the bench.

At this point I stopped him and told him that while I agreed the motor must come out, Medsailor is low on funds and I don't want to go back in the yard and pay to pull the motor if I can't afford to put another one in yet. My plan B was to be towed to my slip where I could enjoy the boat in the water for a few months while funds recovered. I then got an estimate from the yard for pulling the engine and tearing it down for the surveyor and contacted insurance.

Insurance agreed to pull and dismantle the engine for their surveyor, but has not yet agreed to pay for anything else. If it is determined to be a non-covered cause of loss, I'll be paying everything from here on out. If it's a covered reason for loss, they'll likely pay for the price of a rebuild, minus depreciation, and I'd have to pay any difference for a new engine. At that point I could be in the yard with not enough money to fix or replace the engine, but it's a risk I have to take, and while I'd miss being able to enjoy the boat at the slip, the yard's storage rates are reasonable and once the engine comes out, it's not likely safe to put the boat back in the water with so many things below the water taken apart.

MedSailor


----------



## Minnewaska

Did you buy the policy direct or use an agent? As you've noted above, the latter should be at bat for you, if you used one. At the least, they should provide good advice on how to best position your claim.


----------



## MedSailor

Minnewaska said:


> Did you buy the policy direct or use an agent? As you've noted above, the latter should be at bat for you, if you used one. At the least, they should provide good advice on how to best position your claim.


I did use an agent. I didn't know that they're supposed to be advocating for me at this point (until you pointed it out recently). I haven't yet involve the agent, but I may do so. Based on my very recent experience with Safeco's adjuster I feel that they are fair. Thanks for the reminder though about this potential avenue for help if I need it.

MedSailor


----------



## Minnewaska

Med,

The adjuster is very possibly an independent contractor. If your agent isn't helpful, you have the wrong agent.

Good luck.


----------



## MedSailor

Minnewaska said:


> Med,
> 
> The adjuster is very possibly an independent contractor. If your agent isn't helpful, you have the wrong agent.
> 
> Good luck.


That may be the case. They guy who sold me the insurance was really good and proactive during the sales part of the process. For example, the person at the underwriter's office who reviews marine surveys was on vacation and my survey got rejected initially for silly stuff. He helped a lot with that process.

When I called my agent's office to make my initial claim against mack sails I was routed to someone else who was less than useful. She basically said, after 30 seconds of dialogue, "nope that's not covered, but since you have told me about damage I'm going to report it to your underwriters." 

If I need to bring my agent back into things, I'm going to ask for the first guy...

Engine teardown and insurance diagnostics are scheduled for Wed. I'm not sure how that's possible since they quoted 20 hours of labor to pull the engine, and the boat was only hauled yesterday afternoon.... we'll see....

MedSailor


----------



## Minnewaska

MedSailor said:


> .....She basically said, after 30 seconds of dialogue, "nope that's not covered, but since you have told me about damage I'm going to report it to your underwriters."


Makes me wonder if your agent outsources claims processing or referred you directly to the carrier themselves. If so, you need a new agent. It would be highly unusual for an agent to gratuitously inform the carrier of a claim you haven't decided to make.



> Engine teardown and insurance diagnostics are scheduled for Wed. I'm not sure how that's possible since they quoted 20 hours of labor to pull the engine, and the boat was only hauled yesterday afternoon.... we'll see....


They probably have two or three people on it at the same time. It is a pet peeve of mine in marine billings. Often there is a skilled guy and a helper and we're billed the same hourly rate for each. I'm sure the yard believes their rates consider this average, but I still find it hard to take.

I pay the guy that rolls paint on the bottom of the hull the same rate I pay for a diesel mechanic to diagnose a malfunctioning turbo. I paid the electrician that was fixing a radio problem the same rate I paid the winch grinder that hauled him up the mast. Crazy.

Good luck!! Can't wait to hear what they find.


----------



## TakeFive

Minnewaska said:


> ...I paid the electrician that was fixing a radio problem the same rate I paid the winch grinder that hauled him up the mast. Crazy...


Since the electrician's life depends on the winch grinder, he probably wants to keep the guy happy.


----------



## MedSailor

Minnewaska said:


> Makes me wonder if your agent outsources claims processing or referred you directly to the carrier themselves. If so, you need a new agent. It would be highly unusual for an agent to gratuitously inform the carrier of a claim you haven't decided to make.
> 
> They probably have two or three people on it at the same time. It is a pet peeve of mine in marine billings. Often there is a skilled guy and a helper and we're billed the same hourly rate for each. I'm sure the yard believes their rates consider this average, but I still find it hard to take.
> 
> I pay the guy that rolls paint on the bottom of the hull the same rate I pay for a diesel mechanic to diagnose a malfunctioning turbo. I paid the electrician that was fixing a radio problem the same rate I paid the winch grinder that hauled him up the mast. Crazy.
> 
> Good luck!! Can't wait to hear what they find.


That makes sense... Pulling the engine is definitely not a one man job. I know what you mean though about getting charged the higher rate for cheap labor. The previous riggers I used (the same ones who brought down Northoceanbeach's mast) showed up one day to work on my boat and introduced their student from the local community college. They laughed and told me the CC was a source of free slave labor for them. Then they billed me full price for his time.... 

MedSailor


----------



## MedSailor

In a rare piece of good news regarding the new boat, I was taking advantage of being in the water for a couple days before another long haulout and was running some systems and checking out a few things. 

The boat has 2 separate and huge air conditioners and I was running these to excercise them and the genset that powers them when I was dismayed to find HOT air coming out of one of them. Grrrr.... another broken system?

Further investigation reveals that the system is in fact not only an air conditioner, but is some kind of heat pump that can heat the boat as well! I have a thermostatically controlled forced air heater that I didn't know about!! 

Yay!!! Winter boating here we come!

MedSailor


----------



## MedSailor

Engine autopsy and survey tomorrow at 11:00....



















MedSailor


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## Minnewaska

TakeFive said:


> Since the electrician's life depends on the winch grinder, he probably wants to keep the guy happy.


The kid winch grinder was being paid pretty low by the marina, I'm sure. I'm just charged the same. If anything, the kid should be pissed that I paid 4 or 5 times more than he got.


----------



## CarbonSink62

MedSailor said:


> Engine autopsy and survey tomorrow at 11:00....


I'm running out to the lobby for popcorn; don't start until I get back.


----------



## MedSailor

CarbonSink62 said:


> I'm running out to the lobby for popcorn; don't start until I get back.


If there's a betting pool I want some off the top. It's my boat after all!!

MedSailor


----------



## jimgo

Sorry bud, it doesn't work that way.


----------



## Capt Len

But it could. We all make a guesstimate and put $10 in the kitty. Closest to the final damage gets to take the pot or maybe even split it with a needy sailor. No need to point fingers and if this takes a long time deduct cost of popcorn.


----------



## jimgo

So Med, how much longer are you going to keep us in suspense?


----------



## Skipper Jer

jimgo said:


> So Med, how much longer are you going to keep us in suspense?


Maybe he is still picking himself up off the floor. 
Or is still throwing up over the quote.
Or hasn't stop screaming over the phone.

OK, your turn.


----------



## MedSailor

The plot thickens....

The oil cooler tested out fine. Much much more was learned and at the end of the day, the surveyor said, "I'm going to have to sit down with a bottle of wine and think about this for a long time to figure out what happened. I hate to say it, but we may never know what happened."

To be continued (with pictures!)...

MedSailor


----------



## Skipper Jer

Med, is this a raw water cooled engine?


----------



## TakeFive

MedSailor said:


> The plot thickens....
> 
> The oil cooler tested out fine. Much much more was learned and at the end of the day, the surveyor said, "I'm going to have to sit down with a bottle of wine and think about this for a long time to figure out what happened. I hate to say it, but we may never know what happened."
> 
> To be continued (with pictures!)...
> 
> MedSailor


Wow. In my non-expert opinion, your case just got a little stronger. Since the oil cooler was really the only deficiency your surveyor mentioned, and thus the most likely "exclusion" based on initial condition, ruling out its failure as the root cause could be a big deal.


----------



## weinie

Sir, we have been sabotaged!


----------



## jimgo

You are really living up to your name, you know that Med? Just like all medical practitioners, you like to keep us waiting! 

(Kidding! Hopefully this works out to be good news in the end)


----------



## davidpm

See I knew it! When all the signs point to the butler as the murderer it always ends up being the favorite cute teenage niece that is supposed to be confined to the wheel chair that no-one suspects.

Now IMO the most likely cause is some odd combination of things.

And somehow the riggers are involved. It is just too much of a co-incidence that shortly after these saboteurs were on your boat the engine fails.

Maybe Wenie is right.

Sherlock Holmes says:

"When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

Maybe Wenie is right.

What about something simple. The riggers poured water into the oil fill.

Maybe you pissed them off somehow. It would be interesting to know if the guys who did your job are still employed at the same place. Maybe they knew they were going to be fired and figured they would teach their company a lesson.



Do we now have more information?

Was there rusting in the cylinders, but no water?
Was there lot of water in the oil sump?


----------



## Minnewaska

Wow. I suspect that is pretty good news when it comes to insurance coverage. Get that agent in line to advise you.


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## UnionPacific

Allow me to hypothesize. 
If the lift muffler was never drained, and the truck went down the road, wind going up the tailpipe may have caused water to flow backwards into the engine. This would have caused the damage. 
When hauling anything with a turbo, we always covered the stack, but not with non-turbos.


----------



## miatapaul

UnionPacific said:


> Allow me to hypothesize.
> If the lift muffler was never drained, and the truck went down the road, wind going up the tailpipe may have caused water to flow backwards into the engine. This would have caused the damage.
> When hauling anything with a turbo, we always covered the stack, but not with non-turbos.


Or even going up and down hills could cause water to pass a siphon break?

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk


----------



## davidpm

miatapaul said:


> Or even going up and down hills could cause water to pass a siphon break?
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk


Unless we get more information from the autopsy a lot of water was found in the oil sump not in the cylinders.

Passing the siphon break would cause it to enter the cylinders and then the engine would not have started properly after the move.


----------



## UnionPacific

davidpm said:


> Unless we get more information from the autopsy a lot of water was found in the oil sump not in the cylinders.
> 
> Passing the siphon break would cause it to enter the cylinders and then the engine would not have started properly after the move.


there would be water on top of the pistons, but anything higher then the ridge would have flown past the rings and into the sump.


----------



## davidpm

UnionPacific said:


> there would be water on top of the pistons, but anything higher then the ridge would have flown past the rings and into the sump.


Have you seen this happen? I was thinking that if the engine had good compression then the rings would prevent any water that got into the cylinder from leaking out.

But I see your point that each ring has a split and because they are off-set compression is maintained but a slow drip might let water escape.

If that is the case what is the cause of hydro-locking? You just have to wait until the cylinders drain out?


----------



## UnionPacific

davidpm said:


> Have you seen this happen? I was thinking that if the engine had good compression then the rings would prevent any water that got into the cylinder from leaking out.
> 
> But I see your point that each ring has a split and because they are off-set compression is maintained but a slow drip might let water escape.
> 
> If that is the case what is the cause of hydro-locking? You just have to wait until the cylinders drain out?


yes, with a hydro lock you could just let the water trickle down thru, but thats not how I would do it, lol.
But if this happened early on on the 6-8 day truck ride, thats plenty of time for the water to seep down. 
If you dont think water can go thru a small perforation, but a Taiwanese boat with a teak deck. So tight that light cant get thru, or air, but water can.


----------



## MedSailor

This is a bit of a head scratcher....

To recap, the history is this: 1985 Nauticat with original Ford Lehman 90 (non turbo engine) and 1,450 hours.

--Sea trial in FL, engine ran for 1.5 hours or so. WOT got to within 5% of max RPM. Oil sample was good with only a little extra copper. Surveyors were flown out by me and have owned a diesel truck repair shop for 41 years. 
--Next day engine was started by broker and moved 100 yards and hauled in FL.
--1 month later it was trucked to Washington state from FL. Lamps remained upright down below indicating a very smooth ride. 
--Boat was lifted from truck to water. 2-3 days passed. I started the engine and it started up quickly and ran well for 5 min. Shutdown was normal. 
--Boat was hauled and worked on for 3 months. No engine work done except the dripless seal was changed and it does have a raw water feed from the engine oil cooler. 
--Engine seized. I was told the oil cooler failed a pressure test and when the injectors were pulled it wouldn't turn indicating no hydrolock and water was found in the oil pan.

Now the survey findings:

1: Approximately 2 gallons of water in the oil pan. Assumed to be seawater.
2: Water in all 4 cylinders. Rear 2 cylinders full, front two are half full. 
3: Rust in the exhaust manifold, especially where it connects to the rear 2 cylinders.
4: Oil cooler was re-tested and tests out okay. 
5: No significant rust on the valve cover assembly or push rods indicating seawater may not have circulated while the engine was running. (I'm not sure I agree with this finding). 
6: (this one is a fun one) The surveyor said, "Has anyone else noticed that all the pistons are at the same height?"  
7: Sea water impeller appears old and one vane is slightly cracked.


















































MedSailor


----------



## ianjoub

Fresh oil, new gaskets, and run it on the bench to test.


----------



## Faster

> Approximately 2 gallons of water in the oil pan. Assumed to be seawater.


Why 'assumed'? Seems it would be critical to determine which it is/was - though I guess if it was coolant that would be obvious....


----------



## MedSailor

Faster said:


> Why 'assumed'? Seems it would be critical to determine which it is/was - though I guess if it was coolant that would be obvious....












The coolant tank was full of coolant (red in color) when the engine was removed. We have no real reason to suspect fresh water though the "latte" was kept in case we need to test it.

MedSailor


----------



## UnionPacific

was the boat pressure washed by a new guy? maybe he sprayed water into the exhaust outlet. That would explain a lot.

Check if it is fresh, or salt water.


----------



## UnionPacific

MedSailor said:


> 6: (this one is a fun one) The surveyor said, "Has anyone else noticed that all the pistons are at the same height?"












depends on firing order.
Ignoring the last one, this engine looks like they are the same height, and if the pistons were not connected to the crank any longer, they would all be at the top, not the middle 

AND FYI this is what a common rail engine looks like inside after an injector failure.......


----------



## MedSailor

MedSailor said:


> Now the survey findings:
> 
> 1: Approximately 2 gallons of water in the oil pan. Assumed to be seawater.
> 2: Water in all 4 cylinders. Rear 2 cylinders full, front two are half full.
> 3: Rust in the exhaust manifold, especially where it connects to the rear 2 cylinders.
> 4: Oil cooler was re-tested and tests out okay.
> 5: No significant rust on the valve cover assembly or push rods indicating seawater may not have circulated while the engine was running. (I'm not sure I agree with this finding).
> 6: (this one is a fun one) The surveyor said, "Has anyone else noticed that all the pistons are at the same height?"
> 7: Sea water impeller appears old and one vane is slightly cracked.
> 
> MedSailor


Discussion: The oil cooler was quickly eliminated as a source because it pressure tested ok and because there was obviously water in the cylinders and it didn't likely get there from a failed oil cooler.

The coolant tank was full, and the coolant is red, so it doesn't look like the fresh water heat exchanger went bad or there was any other kind of coolant failure. Head gasket also checked out okay.

Impeller pump seal is not a failure point because there is a place that it would leak from first, and it also doesn't explain the water in the cylinders.

Sabotage by running fresh water into the exhaust was considered, but the engine would not run upon delivery if this was the case. We hadn't considered the pressure washing water entry avenue...

We considered that the engine could have backfired upon shutdown when I ran it for 5 minutes and sucked up some seawater from the exhaust side but this could not possibly account for the 2 gallons of water in the oil.

Failure of the seawater cooled exhaust manifold was beginning to seem likely. That would allow seawater to enter the cylinders and then drain down into the oil pan. This could not have happened in florida, or in transit because the engine would not have run. It is suggested that it spontaneously corroded through at some point during my 3 months on the hard and the water in the seawater strainers and exhaust system drained into the cylinders and down into the oil.

Problems with this theory, as raised by me, with "answers" below:

1. Q: Why is there still water in the cylinders? 
A: The water drained to a point and then rusted the rings watertight. 
1(a). Q So you're saying that the exact moment it rusted to a watertight status was when there were 2 gallons in the oil, and still enough left in the system to fill the cylinder? Oh, and this event repeated itself in all 4 cylinders? 
A: Yes/maybe.
2. Q: If the pistons are all at the same height, this would imply bent rods and that the water entered the engine while it was running and the damage was traumatic.
A: Not so. You can have bent rods and the engine will run just fine. These could have been bent for a longtime. 
2(i). Q: Youvegottobefuckingkiddingmeright? 
A: No, serious. You can have an engine purr and pass a survey with bent rods. The bent rods may have nothing to do with the issue.
3. Q: Can we please pull the bottom of the engine and look for bent rods? I feel that this would help us determine if the damage happened traumatically and suddenly (ie a covered event) or as a result of something slow and insidious.
A: See answer to 2(i).

The exhaust manifold is to be sent out for pressure testing to see if it has failed. If it is in a failed condition it would provide a route for seawater to enter the cylinders, and is our most likely culprit at this point. On the other hand, I'd have to swallow all of the above answers at the same time...

Surveyor says that if the manifold is shot, it'll likely be reported by him as "normal wear and tear", which was "preexisting" and "corrosion" is a significant contributor. All the preceding words in quotes are words which are excluded from my policy's coverage FYI.  He also suggested that if it was inadequately cooled for long periods of running that it would contribute to manifold failure. He was looking at the old impeller with great interest. Personally I don't see how slightly inflexible vanes of an old impeller and a single small crack in a vane could account for "inadequate cooling". The exhaust discharge when we ran it at sea trial and when I got ito to Washington looked just fine...

If true, that would make for some spectacular bad luck on my part. Engine manifold didn't fail in 29 years, but decides to fail on me during the longest haulout of my life where it has time to rust everything to bits....

MedSailor


----------



## ianjoub

The rods could have bent when you hit the starter and figured out that it was seized.


----------



## MedSailor

ianjoub said:


> The rods could have bent when you hit the starter and figured out that it was seized.












You really think so? I don't have that much confidence in my starter....

The mechanic also apparently put a wrench on the engine and tried to turn it when the injectors were out... but the injectors were out, so that wouldn't have done it either.

MedSailor


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## Capt Len

If you can get the engine to turn over just measure the piston top clearance at TDC. Otherwise just get it apart Doubt if anything is bent anyway. Dumbass comment about piston all same height mid stroke. I'm not familiar with a stuffing gland piped direct to the raw water side. Seems that if the outer seal fails that would allow water into the system ;and bypass the 'closed thruhull' Doesn't matter which side of failed anti syphon it's on it's easy access to fill cylinders. (Are drip less shaft seals designed to take the pressure of the raw water pump or is hose on the suck side.? If the manifold gaskets failed same situation. Worn impeller has nothing to do with the situation Bet the engine is still rebuildable with good results but some systems need to be looked at. Just my 2 bits while I open valve and check my oil before starting


----------



## weinie

BoatUS: Seaworthy



> How did water get into the cylinders? (Hint: It's not supposed to be there.)
> 
> There are several possibilities, but if you guessed "Act of God," try again. More likely, saltwater passed into the cylinders through a leak in either the raw-water cooled exhaust "manifold" or the "riser." Once water gets inside the cylinders, the result is usually catastrophic engine failure. It can ruin your day, and much of your summer by the time busy mechanics get around to a total engine rebuild (if possible) or replacement. Because the engine is often the single most expensive part of your boat, it makes sense to inspect or replace the risers and manifold periodically before an internal leak occurs, which is more a question of "when" than "if." Once it happens, there is usually little or no warning before the engine is ruined.


----------



## casey1999

Med,
I find it a little hard to believe an engine will run fine with bent rods. The compression/ignitioin of the diesel would be off and the engine would be out of balance. I would think if it did run, it would be very rough and banging. If I am wrong about this, someone please explain.

Here is another thing to consider- I assume the exhaust manifold is cast iron. Now there is a good rust called black rust and a bad rust called red rust. If the cast iron is kept submerged in salt water the rust will stay good black rust. Once that exhaust manifold is dried out the black rust turns to red rust and corrosion rapidly increases. I am not sure of you haul and and on the hard time periods but maybe your exhaust manifold went dry and corrosion rapidly increased. When you went back into the water you now had a path for water to enter cylinders.

Black Rust:
http://www.gasenginemagazine.com/Gas-Engines/Rust-in-Marine-Engine-Water-Jackets.aspx

I am about to haul my boat for a few months and I am concerned about my direct sea water cooled Yanmar 3gmd getting ruined by this black to red rust phenomenon. I am thinking of running antifreeze (anti-corrosion) begore I shut the engine down for a few months to protect the cast iron block and cast iron exhaust manifold.


----------



## MedSailor

New information just came in from the yard. My engine's exhaust manifold is _*freshwater cooled*_. I just verified this with my engine's manual as well. All the coolant is still where it's supposed to be, and what was in the oil pan was not coolant....

Except for the possibly bent rods and the unlucky timing etc the exhaust manifold failure WAS starting to look like the most likely culprit. Now I'm back to having no idea what's going on.....

Below is an email exchange between the yard and myself just now:

Yard to the surveyor with me cc'd on the email:
_You told Ralph to pressure test the exhaust manifold. He looked at it and it is fresh water cooled not sea water cooled. While cleaning up he noticed the intake part of the manifold has had sea water in it doe to the evidence of deep rust pitting in the intake side. Also when moving the intake there was still sea water in the intake ports. We have all the parts here on a pallet if you want to see them again._

Me responding to the yard:
_Thanks for the new information, I'm sure it'll be useful as the mystery unfolds. I have a question though. If the manifold is fresh water cooled, and corroded through, then shouldn't the engine be full of coolant instead of salt water? Is Ralph SURE it is a fresh water cooled manifold?_

Yard responding to me:
_Yes, he is sure it's fresh water cooled. The reason their isn't coolant in the engine instead of fresh water is because it wasn't leaking coolant. All the coolant was still in the engine._

Any ideas now? the idea of fresh water coming in through pressure washing is intriguing, but it made me think about how _the incoming fresh water would first push the existing salt water in the system into the engine._ Thus, even if this happened, the sample would test salty wouldn't it?

The comment about how a shaft seal supplied by raw water could sink your boat and there is no through hull to stop it is an interesting thought as well. Hey Minnewaska, do you want to put a ball valve on yours and add it to the through hulls you close each time? Might not be a bad thing to consider...

MedSailor


----------



## GeorgeB

To paraphrase Doc McCoy: D*mn it Jim! I'm a sailor, not a diesel mechanic!".

Dumb "freshman diesel" question: Could there be something wrong in the hydrolift that is causing it to fill up and then back-drain into the cylinders when the engine is shut down? Perhaps there is a sticking check-valve between the hydrolift and exhaust port on the hull?


----------



## tommays

It would seem to me the exhaust waterlift muffler and piping to the transom could hold hold plenty of water that could slosh around depending on how far below the waterline everything is ?

MANY powerboats are built with the requirements DONE WRONG

On land for example my generator requires that you store the motor at TDC (top dead center)so the valves are closed keeping out humidity


----------



## Capt Len

' Perhaps there is a sticking check-valve' Holy suckin atmospheric pressure .Why didn't we see that? They fail regularly and fill the muffler, then the engine. Shutting the thruhull limits the action but doesn't help the engine much. Funny how 'sailors' can crank and crank their cranky engines to filling the exhaust without figuring the water has to go somewhere. So simple to avoid these issues with my patented 'sucking air vent' on the raw W intake and a dumping valve on the aqua lift .I may be an old fart but at least I can think outside the box.


----------



## Capt Len

I see tommays got in there while I was typing. So I'll add that it's pretty hard to keep all the valves closed on a multi cylinder engine. That's why I install and advocate a gate valve at the transom to prevent winter damp air from whistling past the open valves (also good to prevent inward rush of a big following sea) RV black water valves are cheap and easy to install. If a sailor can remember to zip up his/her fly, he/she should be able to handle this increased workload


----------



## Minnewaska

MedSailor said:


> .......Hey Minnewaska, do you want to put a ball valve on yours and add it to the through hulls you close each time? Might not be a bad thing to consider.....


You're gonna laugh. I do have a valve on the intake for the PSS shaft seal.

What a mystery with the engine. As for power washing, it takes a long time to pump 2 gallons through a pressure washer. Seems unlikley.

Sabotage is intriguing. However, I can't figure how saltwater poured into the oil fill, for example, would get into the cylinders.

This one is bizarre.


----------



## casey1999

Med,
A while back you reported the oil cooler failed now the 2nd test the cooler is showing ok. I guess it does not matter seeing in is coolant cooled and you have water in the oil, but why the two different test results off the cooler?


----------



## casey1999

Med, seeing you have the cylinders exposed how about pouring some water on the tops and seeing if it leaks down. That would give you some idea if it is possible.


----------



## MedSailor

casey1999 said:


> Med, seeing you have the cylinders exposed how about pouring some water on the tops and seeing if it leaks down. That would give you some idea if it is possible.


They actually tried penetrating oil and a block of wood and a sledge. The pistons didn't move and the oil didn't leak down. The theory is that while cold it could have leaked down but now its rusted to a hermetic seal.

Not sure how they botched the first OC test. Perhaos a loose fitting allowed gas to escape. An OC failure shouldn't allow water in thr cylinders anyway.

Med


----------



## paul323

I don't buy the bad impeller story. A couple of times when I replaced the impeller - I do it annually - two or three of the blades had broken of (and needed to be fished out of the heat exchanger). Engine still cooled fine, strong pump of water out the exhaust.

But I gotta say this beats the heck out of me. You ran the engine for a few minutes before it sat on the hard; it ran fine, so water wasn't in the engine then. So when you stopped the engine, it sucked up a few gallons into the cylinders? Makes no sense. 

Of course, a bent rod indicated water did get in while you ran the engine, and bent the rods...

Did you check the water in the cylinders for salinity? If you get white crystals when they dry out, perhaps that would indicate salt...

So much water...so the engine sucks up water (how?) when you ran it, tries to compress it - bending the rods, and forcing the water into the oil (and thereby the oil pan)...is that even possible?


----------



## Capt Len

Mystery? This happened while engine slowly filled after the initial start and shutdown at launch. When? while the boat waited to go on the hard. Where the water came from is the question .The pistons are mid stroke and seized. Nothing got bent.Simply something leaked. If the thruhull was secure and not weeping and if the anti syphon didn't fail and the line from the stern gland wasn't dribbling into the manifold from the now filled exhaust it doesn't leave much.Just a rebuild and and a close look at how things are plumbed. I've got popcorn !!!


----------



## Capt Len

On this same thought, I once rebuilt a '42 Chrysler Crown that had sat 7 years with the head off and full of rain water. Cleaned up and ran well for years, So this is no biggie.


----------



## jimgo

Where is today's update?!?! Man, I hate being the squeaky wheel and all, but c'mon!!


----------



## Skipper Jer

Could there be a spot that rusted through in the raw water pump well? I'm not really sure what the housing is called where the raw water pump vanes reside so I refer to it as a well. 
Or maybe the raw water pump is external much like an alternator.


----------



## Minnewaska

Captainmeme said:


> Could there be a spot that rusted through in the raw water pump well? I'm not really sure what the housing is called where the raw water pump vanes reside so I refer to it as a well.
> Or maybe the raw water pump is external much like an alternator.


I don't know Med's motor, but it is very possible there is a seal between the raw water/impeller side of the pump and the drive side, which would be exposed to oil. However, getting 2 gallons through there in such a short time seems implausible, even if there was no seal at all.


----------



## Skipper Jer

Minnewaska said:


> I don't know Med's motor, but it is very possible there is a seal between the raw water/impeller side of the pump and the drive side, which would be exposed to oil. However, getting 2 gallons through there in such a short time seems implausible, even if there was no seal at all.


Maybe the seal failed in Florida after the survey allowing some Florida water to flow into the oil pan. The rest of the water is Seattle water. Pressure test the raw water pump.


----------



## jrd22

I suggested the raw water pump seal but Med said there was a gap on the shaft between the pump and the seal to the block so any sea water would leak out the back of the pump before it got in the block.


----------



## TQA

We need to remember that the original survey stated that there were issues with the heat exchanger. 

I was initially pretty certain that the the heat exchanger had failed dumping water directly into the oil system after that short run. . 

But the current engineers appear to have tested it and say it is not leaking. 

So I think it would be good to know what did the first surveyor see that made them suspect the heat exchanger. I think the answer may lie there.


----------



## MedSailor

ianjoub said:


> The rods could have bent when you hit the starter and figured out that it was seized.


I owe you an apology. I spoke with 2 mechanics and they both thought this was possible if the piston had some distance to travel before it hit tge water anh hydrolocked.

I guess i didn't think your idea was too hair brained since I was asking around about it. 

Medsailor


----------



## MedSailor

ATTENTION!! POSSIBLE SMOKING GUN!!!

After the yard's email email noting that my exhaust manifold is fresh water cooled basically torpedoed our most likely cause of water entry into the cylinders, I spent several hours yesterday at the yard looking over the engine and going over the cooling and exhaust installation. I found some new facts that may just be the missing piece we are looking for.

#1 The boat was NOT pressure washed in Washington state at any point. I had it washed when it was hauled in Florida, but it spent so little time here I told them not to spray it as to preserve the bottom paint. I also realized that even if someone stuck a hose in the exhaust and put 2 gallons of water in there, it would mix with the existing salt water in the system and thus the sample that would be tested would show salty water.

#2. All 4 cylinders are NOT at the same level. I checked this again and Cyl #1 and #4 are at the same height. Cyl #2 and #3 are at the same height. The pairs of cylinders are not at the same level as each other. Their levels differ by approximately 3/8" I believe this is a condition of normal operation for my motor indicating that bent rods are less likely to be present.

#3. My boat DOES have anti siphon loops, which appear to be related to the engine and genset. (I was previously told the install did NOT include an anti-siphon loop) I apologize that I wasn't able to trace exactly where they went before the yard closed yesterday, but they are made of marine exhaust hose, and are located directly next to the engine and genset exhausts (see picture). It is unlikely these are related to heads heads as they located are as far as possible from the heads. I believe (but have not yet verified) that at least one of these loops is part of my engine's raw water circuit.

#4 One of the anti siphon vent loops is completely clogged and the other may be clogged as well. See photo. The forward-most vent hole is completely plugged with something greyish that looks like mud, or putty. On the inboard side of the vent there is a plug for easy inspection and cleaning of these vents. I left the substance in the vents for the surveyor's inspection.

My engine anatomy is not quite good enough to grasp exactly where and why a siphon will start when the boat's exhaust outlet is above the waterline (ie not sailing at an angle of heel) Several websites say though (so it must be true!  ), that this is a common place for water to enter the exhaust system and cylinders.

From: Vented loops and anti-siphon valves ; how they work on boats
"In an exhaust system without an anti-siphon valve, when the engine is shut down, raw water continues to siphon into the exhaust system until it reaches the same level as the outside, i.e., the waterline. If the engine is installed below the waterline the water will flow back up the exhaust pipe and into the engine itself."










I did see from my engine manual that the shaft seal water feed is in a location whereby it is possible for it to feed into the exhaust elbow (and into the engine), though I'm not sure how it could have done this on the hard. See photo from my engine manual attached. Again, I don't know how and where the water siphoned into the cylinders, if it did so at all, but I keep looking at this possibility simply because the system was altered and it is the system that likely caused the failure. (I'm really not sure it's related though)

If this is a failure mode that can cause my engine's condition and the plugged vent is the one that goes to my engine (and not something else) then these new facts could be our "smoking gun." I have no idea how a plugged vent like this relates to my coverage, but what's more important to me is that this may represent the actual failure point which caused the sudden engine loss. If this is the failure point, and we had not found it, it very likely could have happened immediately after an engine replacement or rebuild which, depending on who is paying for it, would have cost me, and/or, Safeco significantly more money as a second engine would have been damaged.

Photos attached:
--External through hulls. The smallest and forward-most one is the severely plugged vent loop.
--Inside view of the vented loops x2. Access panels have been left removed for easy access to this location. 
--Photos from my engine's manual showing the arrangement of the salt water flow. The external drawing is of the 6cyl Lehman, but it demonstrates the salt water flow well. 
--Close up of plugged siphon loop vent.


















































Let me know what you think,
MedSailor


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## UnionPacific

Allow me to be the jerk that points out the obvious.
All those thru hulls need a seacock, even above the waterline, because on a sailboat, they can go below the waterline.


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## UnionPacific

My next question where is the exhaust manifold in relation to the waterline?
In my boat the manifold is above the waterline, and would have a hard time flooding unless healed dramatically. I do not have anti siphon on mine.
The debris looks like wasp debris, or bug debris. 
I doubt that would affect anything, unless the thruhull was below the waterline, as all the siphon break does is prevent water from being sucked from an airless exhaust hose that is underwater back into the boat.
So no, this was not your problem, sorry.

I think I missed something, was the water salty or sweet that was in the oil?

I am pointing at sabotage, unless the water was salt water...


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## TQA

A blocked anti siphon vent has certainly been the cause of water being introduced into an engine. But in my experience only relatively small quantities of water and usually only into only one or at most two cylinders.

TOP TIP Run some flexible pipe from the vent to somewhere easily accessible and blow into it at regular intervals. A blockage is easily detected.


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## MedSailor

Every part of my engine is below the waterline. (Thank you Sparkman and Stevens). My understanding of the purpose of the anti siphon loop is to stop a siphon from occuring if the exhaust through hull is submerged while heeling. My boat never heeled over in the water since it was last run though...

Could it siphon in through the raw water intake, past the impeller and fill up the motor? If so it would be odd that it didn't do this BEFORE I started the motor but DID do it after. 

The boat sat in the water in Washington for approximately 3 days before I started and ran the engine for 5 minutes and approximately 3 days after I ran it.

Med sailor


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## casey1999

MedSailor said:


> Every part of my engine is below the waterline. (Thank you Sparkman and Stevens). My understanding of the purpose of the anti siphon loop is to stop a siphon from occuring if the exhaust through hull is submerged while heeling. My boat never heeled over in the water since it was last run though...
> 
> Could it siphon in through the raw water intake, past the impeller and fill up the motor? If so it would be odd that it didn't do this BEFORE I started the motor but DID do it after.
> 
> The boat sat in the water in Washington for approximately 3 days before I started and ran the engine for 5 minutes and approximately 3 days after I ran it.
> 
> Med sailor


I think you mentioned the impeller had a cracked vane. Maybe having the boat sit for a long time the impeller got rigid, then when the engine was run the vane cracked and allowed siphoning when you shut off the engine. You mentioned the impeller looked old, and the boat has been in storage for a Long time, could make sense the vane cracked the last time engine did run-then water flooded cylinders on shut down . The siphon pressure would be equal to the height of sea level over you pistons. That pressure could force the water past pistons and into the oil sump.


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## Oldboyracer

My engine is below waterline , the exhaust outlet is above the waterline . My anti syphon blocked up and filled the engine with water thru the exhaust manifold . I was lucky as its my practice to decompress the engine and turn by hand one revolution ( yes I know it's just me ) before I hit the starter button . In my case the seacock was faulty and didn't seal when it was turned off . I discovered that when I disconnected every thing to rebuild . It could have been blocked for a long time and for some reason just this once it siphoned back , why I don't know I just know that it did .


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## MedSailor

Oldboyracer said:


> My engine is below waterline , the exhaust outlet is above the waterline . My anti syphon blocked up and filled the engine with water thru the exhaust manifold . I was lucky as its my practice to decompress the engine and turn by hand one revolution ( yes I know it's just me ) before I hit the starter button . In my case the seacock was faulty and didn't seal when it was turned off . I discovered that when I disconnected every thing to rebuild . It could have been blocked for a long time and for some reason just this once it siphoned back , why I don't know I just know that it did .


A THROUGH HULL FAILED TO SEAL??!! Great. Now you're going to give Minnewaska nightmares.


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## UnionPacific

even if your engine is below the water line, the mixing elbow is above. Well, it should be. If not, thats a big issue.



> Exhaust design
> 
> Below is a typical sailboat exhaust installation. The waterlock silencer (muffler) is the collection point for water in the exhaust system when you shut the engine down, and as such needs to be the lowest part of the exhaust system. You need a drop of about 9" from the exit of the exhaust elbow (X on the drawing below) to the inlet of the waterlock muffler. If you are unable to accomplish this then we suggest using a high rise exhaust elbow which will raise point x up by the required amount.
> 
> If you are using a plastic waterlock muffler or a fiberglass one, then we suggest a minimum of 12" length of hose between the exit of the exhaust elbow and the entry point of the waterlift muffler. This allows enough time for the water in the exhaust system to cool the gases down so you do not have any muffler problems.


Beta Marine US: Exhaust design


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## Capt Len

I mentioned dribbling thru hulls earlier Apparently I'm not the only one to experience this. Then depending on the integrity of an impeller pump to seal the system might not be wise.If the pump's shaft seal fails ,that's direct access to the bilge. At least it doesn't fill the engine first. Then depending on an anti syphon flapper thingy that's designed to be frail or screwed by wasps that allows the exhaust system to fill to the piston rings ??. Takes a small tablespoon of water to bend a con rod and couple of hours of drip can fill the ex and then the crankcase. I bet one should know where the hoses go, what they're supposed to do and if they're doing it.


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## Minnewaska

If the mixing elbow is indeed below the waterline (very odd and concerning) and there was a cracked impeller blade that was positioned right over the in/out on the pump, then an open thru hull would apply pressure (not siphon), until the system filled to either the water line or the point where no more fluid could enter.

If that's even possible in this motor's setup, which I would find a major design flaw, then I would immediately believe this wasn't the first time.


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## UnionPacific

Minnewaska said:


> If the mixing elbow is indeed below the waterline (very odd and concerning) and there was a cracked impeller blade that was positioned right over the in/out on the pump, then an open thru hull would apply pressure (not siphon), until the system filled to either the water line or the point where no more fluid could enter.
> 
> If that's even possible in this motor's setup, which I would find a major design flaw, then I would immediately believe this wasn't the first time.


One broken blade would not span the entire in/out on the pump, but water will indeed seep by as the pump is not water tight, at all.

Mixing elbow location to waterline is the next question he must answer for us to help him.


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## MedSailor

Minnewaska said:


> If the mixing elbow is indeed below the waterline (very odd and concerning) and there was a cracked impeller blade that was positioned right over the in/out on the pump, then an open thru hull would apply pressure (not siphon), until the system filled to either the water line or the point where no more fluid could enter.
> 
> If that's even possible in this motor's setup, which I would find a major design flaw, then I would immediately believe this wasn't the first time.


Shrewd and a keen observer as always Minnie. The mechanic told me that as he was cleaning up the exhaust manifold he saw some abnormal pitting indicating that the motor has sucked water up the exhaust before.

The crack in the impeller blade is very small. It's not even a full tear and you can see, if you look close, where I'm folding it back to show the tear in the photo. Of particular interest to me though is how 2 of the blades in the pump are folded backwards. This is the position the impeller was in when the failure occurred.... Could water get past this easily?

I'm with you though on the install being a major liability if the whole works is under the waterline. That would mean the vent on the anti-siphon loop is THE only thing keeping hydrostatic pressure from filing the engine. Even with a new impeller I don't trust it to seal out water.

IF the elbow is below the water, a possible series of events could be this:

1: The anti-siphon loop was patent in florida during sea trial and the trip to the haulout. During the 3 weeks it sat in florida, or the one week on the truck some wasps filled up the vent hole. (or the yard monkeys did it as sabotage)

2: I am put in the water for 2 days and the impeller miraculously keeps out the water.

3: I run the engine and, beause the impeller is old and fatigued, the impeller blade folds in an awkward way upon shutdown and allows water in (because of the plugged vent) and it fills up the motor.

Hmmmm..... IF this is what happened, you're going to see me obsessively checking the patency of the vent AND I'll be installing a seacock on the shaft seal and becoming a member of the "I always close my through hulls club."



















Another theory that's still being kicked around is the idea that the diesel backfired upon shutdown and sucked in water. I don't see it sucking in 2 gallons, but if it did spin backwards right before it croaked, shouldn't all the impeller blades be facing the wrong way? I'll have to think about that one...

MedSailor


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## MedSailor

UnionPacific said:


> One broken blade would not span the entire in/out on the pump, but water will indeed seep by as the pump is not water tight, at all.
> 
> *Mixing elbow location to waterline is the next question he must answer for us to help him.*


Agreed. I'll have to put the block back on the head and dummy-fit the elbow and measure it to the mounts. I can then take that measurement to the boat and measure from the mounting stringers. I won't be able to do that until late next week.


















MedSailor


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## Faster

When you stop a high compression diesel it's not unusual for the engine to 'kick back' a few degrees of rotation when the momentum isn't enough anymore to overcome the resistance of compression.

That could easily account for your two 'inverted vanes' in your pump impeller so that is probably of no consequence.

If indeed it turns out your elbow is below the waterline that's something I'd be keen to find a way to remedy on the re-install, whichever engine is ultimately chosen or rebuilt... clear anti-siphon or not.


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## Capt Len

'then an open thru hull would apply pressure (not siphon)' That's what the anti siphon is for. The hoses go above the water line and sucks air back down to the the wl as it drains down. when you shut down. IF IT can suck. Some have a little floppy gasket that easily sticks and some piddle water like an outboard when engine is running and all is pressurized. Either way .any failure can cause bend rods, frequent oil changes, engine rebuild or sump oil on the deck head as the boat settles at the dock. I sailed a 42' with a 6 foot high stand pipe (mixing elbow) Still managed to fill the engine in really nasty off Cal coast. No shutting of pipe at transom) On a deep hull the mixing elbow is nearly always below the WL . Cure is simple and fool proof. (nearly) That fancy thing on a big hose is salt water cooled ??And bolted to the manifold??


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## casey1999

Capt Len said:


> 'then an open thru hull would apply pressure (not siphon)' That's what the anti siphon is for. The hoses go above the water line and sucks air back down to the the wl as it drains down. when you shut down. IF IT can suck. Some have a little floppy gasket that easily sticks and some piddle water like an outboard when engine is running and all is pressurized. Either way .any failure can cause bend rods, frequent oil changes, engine rebuild or sump oil on the deck head as the boat settles at the dock. I sailed a 42' with a 6 foot high stand pipe (mixing elbow) Still managed to fill the engine in really nasty off Cal coast. No shutting of pipe at transom) On a deep hull the mixing elbow is nearly always below the WL . Cure is simple and fool proof. (nearly) That fancy thing on a big hose is salt water cooled ??And bolted to the manifold??


I am with you. Don't understand the talk about the mix elbow cannot be below water line. Sure it can. Mine is and my engine has not sucked water for 30 years including a lap around the planet. The savior is the anti siphon being installed properly, and for good measure I shut off the engine raw water seacock when at dock.


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## Minnewaska

I can't really tell which Med has. A siphon would be created if there is a part of the raw water system that is below the thru hull, which would create a siphon until the water level in the system was the same as the water level outside the boat. However, hydrostatic pressure wants to fill the raw water system up to the water level, with or without a siphon. I think of it like I installed a fixed open pipe on the thru hull. The pipe would only fill to the water level, even if open on top. Med indicated that his entire motor is below the water line and I'm only suggesting that's a hydrostatic pressure issue, rather than siphon. I find it odd that the raw water tubing does not loop above the waterline? I'm probably not familiar with the anti-siphon being discussed above, but I'm not seeing how a vented loop, which stops a siphon, will stop hyrostatic pressure. I think of it as simply any loop above the water line will stop hydrostatic pressure. Then again, Med says nothing is above the waterline. Edgumacate me.


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## UnionPacific

MedSailor said:


> MedSailor


oh goofy goodness, please tell me that elbow injects down from where that fitting is, just before the exhaust hose?


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## TakeFive

Minnewaska said:


> I can't really tell which Med has. A siphon would be created if there is a part of the raw water system that is below the thru hull, which would create a siphon until the water level in the system was the same as the water level outside the boat. However, hydrostatic pressure wants to fill the raw water system up to the water level, with or without a siphon. I think of it like I installed a fixed open pipe on the thru hull. The pipe would only fill to the water level, even if open on top. Med indicated that his entire motor is below the water line and I'm only suggesting that's a hydrostatic pressure issue, rather than siphon. I find it odd that the raw water tubing does not loop above the waterline? I'm probably not familiar with the anti-siphon being discussed above, but I'm not seeing how a vented loop, which stops a siphon, will stop hyrostatic pressure. I think of it as simply any loop above the water line will stop hydrostatic pressure. Then again, Med says nothing is above the waterline. Edgumacate me.


Maybe this is too obvious to bother saying, but the anti-siphon vent MUST be above the waterline. If it's below the waterline, then the technical term for it is a LEAK.


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## casey1999

Minnewaska said:


> I can't really tell which Med has. A siphon would be created if there is a part of the raw water system that is below the thru hull, which would create a siphon until the water level in the system was the same as the water level outside the boat. However, hydrostatic pressure wants to fill the raw water system up to the water level, with or without a siphon. I think of it like I installed a fixed open pipe on the thru hull. The pipe would only fill to the water level, even if open on top. Med indicated that his entire motor is below the water line and I'm only suggesting that's a hydrostatic pressure issue, rather than siphon. I find it odd that the raw water tubing does not loop above the waterline? I'm probably not familiar with the anti-siphon being discussed above, but I'm not seeing how a vented loop, which stops a siphon, will stop hyrostatic pressure. I think of it as simply any loop above the water line will stop hydrostatic pressure. Then again, Med says nothing is above the waterline. Edgumacate me.


I have the same anti siphon (vacuum break) as med. it is installed such that the "u" is above sea water level and an air tube tees off the top of the u and goes out board of the boat hull so the vent is always above sea level even when heeled . If this tube is clogged and air tight ,as meds might be, the anti siphon will not work and he can siphon in the sea. The air tube works by allowing air in on a negative pressure thereby breaking the siphon. The air tube must be able to pull air otherwise siphoning will occur.


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## Capt Len

UnionPacific said:


> Allow me to be the jerk that points out the obvious.
> All those thru hulls need a seacock, even above the waterline, because on a sailboat, they can go below the waterline.


 If those lines are for access to atmospheric anti siphon , a close seacock would guarantee real trouble (as the wasps may have demonstrated.


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## casey1999

Med,
Here is another thing to ask your engine surveyor: Is your water lock muffler large enough? 

The water lock must be large enough to contain all the "back flow" water from the engine to the water lift muffler and from the water lift muffler to the exit of the exhaust on the hull of your boat. If the water lift is not large enough the excess water can go back up into the exhaust manifold and flood your engine. The water lift muffler size is based on the diameter and length of your exhast system (ie- the volume of your exhaust).


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## Jaramaz

Capt Len said:


> If those lines are for access to atmospheric anti siphon , a close seacock would guarantee real trouble (as the wasps may have demonstrated.


Now it wasn't perfectly clear where these thru hulls are mounted, they should be mounted high enougth that they would never be submerged. Which is difficult to ensure 100%.

If they are submerged and the raw water intake is not closed then ... bye bye.

From the we conclude that it is essential to close the raw water intake if sailing in bad weather.

Personally, I fail to see any harm in having seacocks at the anti-siphon outlet as well. Question is just when you are going to use them - are they easy accessible?

And, for the record, I doubt ther wasps can be blamed for the problems Med have. But it is difficult to speculate so far away.

/J


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## casey1999

Med,
Your survey in Florida should have included an inspection and even pictures of the vented loop and the through hulls (including the vented loop). My survey did this on my boat and even mentioned to me to keep the vented loop clear. Did your survey include this? Also, is the blockage of the vented loop somthing hard? Or soft like mud wasp? Is it air tight (remove hose off U tube and gently blow)? It almost looks like a two part epoxy used to repair metal. It does look like sabotage if that is what it is- would be nice to be able to show this plug did not exist in Florida.


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## Faster

On our boat neighbours Nauticat 37 the antisiphon vent is in a similar position.. IIRC I've seen water coming out of that when the engine's running, as a water pressure telltale.. and that flow will also keep/prove the vent path clean.

I also think UP's point about the injection location is worthy... over and beyond the riser elbow, surely? Not the side mounted elbow shown?


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## Capt Len

The design size of a muffler Aqualift is only good when things are good. When things go bad the difference of a few extra gallons is nada. Med had a couple of gallons in the sump and a while more dribble the oil would have been coming out the dipstick and breather. This often happens when boaters have no understanding of what's what and just turn the key. I just read back what's been written and wonder where the mystery is. My posts#266,267 and 273 in particular .I rant again about a small sucking air source on the raw water intake. A dumping valve on the muffler and a shut off at the transom. Then you close thruhulls when you leave. Check oil and stuff before you start. So simple.


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## casey1999

Med,
When you get a chance look at this (post #20);
Steam in the exhaust: Ford Lehman SP135 - Trawler Forum

Some pics of an exhaust elbow (it does look as if water could enter manifold- but guess not, seems to work as designed). Also some pics of the water lift muffler.


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## casey1999

Capt Len said:


> The design size of a muffler Aqualift is only good when things are good. When things go bad the difference of a few extra gallons is nada. Med had a couple of gallons in the sump and a while more dribble the oil would have been coming out the dipstick and breather. This often happens when boaters have no understanding of what's what and just turn the key. I just read back what's been written and wonder where the mystery is. My posts#266,267 and 273 in particular .I rant again about a small sucking air source on the raw water intake. A dumping valve on the muffler and a shut off at the transom. Then you close thruhulls when you leave. Check oil and stuff before you start. So simple.


You may be right. But meds boat operated for many years without flooding the oil sump with water. So what caused the flooding? Was it the "plug" in the vent for the anti siphon (may or may not be sabotage)? Or was it somthing else?


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## casey1999

Capt Len said:


> ' Perhaps there is a sticking check-valve' Holy suckin atmospheric pressure .Why didn't we see that? They fail regularly and fill the muffler, then the engine. Shutting the thruhull limits the action but doesn't help the engine much. Funny how 'sailors' can crank and crank their cranky engines to filling the exhaust without figuring the water has to go somewhere. So simple to avoid these issues with my patented 'sucking air vent' on the raw W intake and a dumping valve on the aqua lift .I may be an old fart but at least I can think outside the box.


Med does not have a check valve on his anti-siphon, he has a vent line that breaks the vacuum- if it is clear...


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## Capt Len

A long and shady youth of siphoning gas has left me with a pretty good understanding of the physics.By definition the hose comes above the fluid level (WL) and back down to lower where liquid will flow if the is no air in the hose. Simple ,eh. Now block off the air source of an anti siphon (stuck flapper, bent vent hose, goober in the vent line, wasp's mud, closed vent seacock) and it's dribbling into the bowels of mysteerios engine stuff. (If that gizmo on the rubber exhaust hose (picture) is a jacketed water cooled coupling. I wonder if it leaks.)


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## MedSailor

UnionPacific said:


> oh goofy goodness, please tell me that elbow injects down from where that fitting is, just before the exhaust hose?


Are you suggesting that injected exhaust water could just flow right back into the manifold from this location? Well then.... um... yeah.... hmmm... it looks like it could do that doesn't it.

I don't have a picture of the construction of the elbow but basically the exhaust gas goes through a 2.5" diameter elbow and surrounding that elbow is a jacket that makes the downstream end of the elbow 3". The pipe you see injects water into this jacket and then mixes at the point where the 3" hose connects.

If this jacket system failed it could represent a failure point for sure. Visually it did not appear failed when I looked at it. I wonder why they have the exhaust exiting UP at a 45deg angle like they do. See picture with my pen pointing to the location of the elbow.


















MedSailor


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## MedSailor

Faster said:


> On our boat neighbours Nauticat 37 the antisiphon vent is in a similar position.. IIRC I've seen water coming out of that when the engine's running, as a water pressure telltale.. and that flow will also keep/prove the vent path clean.
> 
> I also think UP's point about the injection location is worthy... over and beyond the riser elbow, surely? Not the side mounted elbow shown?


The anti siphon loop vent does appear to be an overboard discharge type. There are no valves in it and it directly exits the boat. The vent loop, where it goes through the boat (way above the waterline) is actually a "T-fitting" with one end open to the through hull and the other end being a bronze plug. Presumably the bronze plug is for easy removal and cleaning of the overboard vent. Seems like I could unplug the inboard side of the "T" and stick a wire coat hanger in there and easily clean it out. I left the offending substance in there for the surveyor to examine.










When the impeller is turning and the anti-siphon loop is pressurised with seawater, since there is no valve in the vent, I can't see any other way that it would work except to pee water out the side. I've heard reference to "a pisser" on Ford Lehman engines before, but this doesn't look like a Lehman specific thing, but more of an install specific thing.

MedSailor


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## Capt Len

Incidentally, fast moving hot salt water can cut steel amazingly quickly so things can fail in where the sun don't shine.


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## casey1999

MedSailor said:


> Are you suggesting that injected exhaust water could just flow right back into the manifold from this location? Well then.... um... yeah.... hmmm... it looks like it could do that doesn't it.
> 
> I don't have a picture of the construction of the elbow but basically the exhaust gas goes through a 2.5" diameter elbow and surrounding that elbow is a jacket that makes the downstream end of the elbow 3". The pipe you see injects water into this jacket and then mixes at the point where the 3" hose connects.
> 
> If this jacket system failed it could represent a failure point for sure. Visually it did not appear failed when I looked at it. I wonder why they have the exhaust exiting UP at a 45deg angle like they do. See picture with my pen pointing to the location of the elbow.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MedSailor


This also design is typical of yanmar GM series engines. It is called a mixing elbow. The elbow typically aims down 45 degree.


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## casey1999

Ford Lehman SP90 SP135 Exhaust Elbow 1A397 for Marine Diesel Engine Manifold | eBay

Does above look like your elbow?


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## Faster

Presumably the water injection nozzle extends at 90deg into and down the outlet of the elbow.. so RW can't possibly drop straight into the exhaust manifold....


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## casey1999

Faster said:


> Presumably the water injection nozzle extends at 90deg into and down the outlet of the elbow.. so RW can't possibly drop straight into the exhaust manifold....


See pic of the elbow above you post- there is an annular space (can be see in my attached pic) that takes the sea water down the elbow. But as posted, a hole in the metal that creates annular space could flood the exhaust manifold with sea water.


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## casey1999

Interesting exhaust design reading:
Designing a Marine Exhaust System


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## MedSailor

casey1999 said:


> Ford Lehman SP90 SP135 Exhaust Elbow 1A397 for Marine Diesel Engine Manifold | eBay
> 
> Does above look like your elbow?


Exactly yes. Holy Cow it's expensive though! I should drive down to Everett and smack the guy selling it...

I have a desire now to stick a garden hose to the elbow, hold it at the appropriate angle and see where the water goes...

MedSailor


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## casey1999

From:

Designing a Marine Exhaust System

7) Never, never, never do you want a boat that has saltwater cooled wet risers or pipes unless they are installed in such a manner that when they leak they are downhill of the engine "spill-over" point 
It is not IF they are going to leak, it's when they are going to leak as it is a 100% given that they will. If this is the only viable option, then be sure that you realize that they need to be inspected annually (or more often), or changed out after every few years to be safe. A few examples below of perfectly good low hour engines that had a "wet riser" or something similar and when they failed internally, the owner was into the BIG bucks as to repair.

Destroyed Turbo are the results from the failed "wet riser" on the right. This "wet" riser failed in less that 700 total hours hitting the owners wallet big time. As mentioned, you NEVER want a wet riser cooled w/ salt water, even as "cool" as you might think they are.


----------



## bfloyd4445

MedSailor said:


> Yesterday was supposed to be a happy day. After three months in the yard repairing $14,000 worth of damage caused by the Florida riggers who decommissioned my new boat for transport, we finally were launched into the water. Finally, nearly 4 months after buying the boat, and after insurance battles and months in the yard, we could finally put our first mile under the keel.
> 
> Then, the email from the yard. The engine won't start. No big deal, probably a dead battery right? Then, the next email, *the engine is seized. *
> 
> --->  --->  --->  ---> uke
> 
> How is that possible? The engine surveyed well, the engine ran in Florida, and 3 months ago when I went in the water from the truck, the engine ran just fine. The yard did no work in, or around the engine. Surely it's not really seized.... I go down to the boat, and indeed, the sound of the starter trying to engage, the good voltage at the batteries etc indicate it sure sounds like it's seized. Then I pull the dipstick.
> 
> --->  --->  --->  ---> uke
> 
> The dipstick reads grossly over full. Probably 3-5 times full. The color is greyish, brownish, not fully transparent and smells like kerosene. It's not cooking oil color, and it's not black. Worst part? The last 1.5 inches of the dipstick are blatantly rusty. I then pulled a sample of oil from the bottom of the engine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's not a frappuccino kids. That's what came out of the engine. Clearly it separated quickly and it doesn't look like coolant at the bottom. Since it separated so quickly, it's not likely to be diesel. I'm thinking based on it's color, the fact that it separated and the rust on the bottom of the dipstick that it's likely seawater. Peering into the top of the engine I can see the valves look rusty and when I run my finger over the valves at the top, I get a gritty rusty oily stuff on my fingers.
> 
> The yard suggested that water that was in the engine exhaust could have migrated up through the exhaust circuit and gotten in the engine during the bumps along the road in the 5,000mile road trip. I don't see how that could be possible because *I ran the engine for 5 minutes at the slip the day after I was unloaded from the truck*. If water from the exhaust got into the cylinders it wouldn't have started or ran, correct?
> 
> Another thought is a survey finding from the pre-purchase survey. I was told the oil coolers were bad (one for the engine, one for the tranny) and were due for replacement. Could the engine oil cooler have failed while sitting in the yard? Seems unlikely....
> 
> I'm not sure where else to look, or what to think. The engine surveyed well except for the above mentioned oil coolers finding and the finding that all the hoses were soft, squishy and due for replacement. The engine is a Ford Lehman 90HP 1985 naturally aspirated 4 cyl diesel with 1450 hours, and the boat is a 1985 Nauticat 40. Again, the yard did no engine work (though they did replace a cutlass bearing) and I can't imagine how this could be the yard's fault, though on the other hand, I gave them a boat with a working engine and I got back an engine that is seized.
> 
> I will know more on monday when the mechanics look at it. I really want to pull the injectors and valve cover right now and change the oil 10 times, but I am going to wait for the yard to look at it.
> 
> Thoughts? Maybe by next summer I'll actually have a functioning boat again...
> 
> MedSailor


When the survey said to replace the oil cooler why didn't you? My guess is it began leaking during the survey. I've done dumb things like this myself, putting off making repairs when I know there needed only to have to make even larger repairs later because of not fixing the problem when discovered.
I hope the engine isn't ruined. I've had water in a engine before without engine damage but I didn't let it sit in the engine it was flushed out immediately


----------



## MedSailor

bfloyd4445 said:


> *When the survey said to replace the oil cooler why didn't you? My guess is it began leaking during the survey.* I've done dumb things like this myself, putting off making repairs when I know there needed only to have to make even larger repairs later because of not fixing the problem when discovered.
> I hope the engine isn't ruined. I've had water in a engine before without engine damage but I didn't let it sit in the engine it was flushed out immediately


Well if it leaked during the survey, it wouldn't matter when I replaced it now would it? Or should I have replaced it during/before the survey? 

I know this thread is large and intimidating but it's generally best to read the entire thread before contributing; the answers to your questions have been covered. We're way past the oil cooler as a possible cause.

MedSailor


----------



## Capt Len

Better than that fancy would be simple black iron NPT elbows and nipples wrapped in glass tape. Then inject on the down side.I usually weld two SS injection nipples (aimed into the rubber) into the last SS nipple to better take the heat away. Even if your fancy failed big time it wouldn't account for 2 gals of water in the sump unless PMP (previously mentioned possibilities) were paramount. That gasket shown is where the manifold cooling water gets into the engine when it fails. Rare but seen it happen.


----------



## casey1999

MedSailor said:


> Exactly yes. Holy Cow it's expensive though! I should drive down to Everett and smack the guy selling it...
> 
> I have a desire now to stick a garden hose to the elbow, hold it at the appropriate angle and see where the water goes...
> 
> MedSailor


Yes, hook up that garden hose and tell us what happens. And five the siphon vent a gentle blow and do tell what happened.


----------



## MedSailor

Capt Len said:


> Better than that fancy would be simple black iron NPT elbows and nipples wrapped in glass tape. Then inject on the down side.I usually weld two SS injection nipples (aimed into the rubber) into the last SS nipple to better take the heat away. Even if your fancy failed big time it wouldn't account for 2 gals of water in the sump unless PMP (previously mentioned possibilities) were paramount. That gasket shown is where the manifold cooling water gets into the engine when it fails. Rare but seen it happen.


This is a fine point. (I assume by "fancy" you really mean "exhaust mixer elbow"). This kind of failure would spit water into the engine and some could leak back into it, but it wouldn't account for the gallons of water.

I really think a siphon has to be the culprit for many reasons. Not the least of which is that it's vent appears to be currently in a failed condition and while many points from the article about incorrect installations are valid, the boat has had this installation for many years.  I feel there has to be some point of recent failure, and the plugged vent may be it. So far it's the only part we've come across that is in a failed condition. The slight, small tear, in the impeller hardly counts.

One possible explanation for why the engine didn't flood when the boat was first lifted into the water is that while the vent may have been plugged, the anti-siphon loop itself wasn't full of water. If the vent was patent at the time of the sea trial, upon shutdown the anti-siphon loop would have drained to equal the hydrostatic pressure at the waterline.

Only then, after I ran the engine with the vent closed, would the entire anti-siphon loop be full of water and purged of air, allowing a siphon to form from the raw water intake OR the dripless shaft seal water supply, into the system filling it completely.

MedSailor


----------



## bfloyd4445

casey1999 said:


> From:
> 
> Designing a Marine Exhaust System
> 
> 7) Never, never, never do you want a boat that has saltwater cooled wet risers or pipes unless they are installed in such a manner that when they leak they are downhill of the engine "spill-over" point
> It is not IF they are going to leak, it's when they are going to leak as it is a 100% given that they will. If this is the only viable option, then be sure that you realize that they need to be inspected annually (or more often), or changed out after every few years to be safe. A few examples below of perfectly good low hour engines that had a "wet riser" or something similar and when they failed internally, the owner was into the BIG bucks as to repair.
> 
> Destroyed Turbo are the results from the failed "wet riser" on the right. This "wet" riser failed in less that 700 total hours hitting the owners wallet big time. As mentioned, you NEVER want a wet riser cooled w/ salt water, even as "cool" as you might think they are.


Great link thank you very much. Didn't understand some of the subtle differences but I learned from your post.

You engineers are all alike, your always looking for excuses to calculate the correct way to do something. Aint you heard of duct tape? You can do anything with that stuff and I never sail without several rolls. So the question is: How many engineers does it take to replace a single roll of duct tape?/// anyone got an answer...:laugher


----------



## casey1999

bfloyd4445 said:


> Great link thank you very much. Didn't understand some of the subtle differences but I learned from your post.
> 
> You engineers are all alike, your always looking for excuses to calculate the correct way to do something. Aint you heard of duct tape? You can do anything with that stuff and I never sail without several rolls. So the question is: How many engineers does it take to replace a single roll of duct tape?/// anyone got an answer...:laugher


Hey, duct tape save Apollo 13. I love the stuff.

Since owning a boat, I never really have understood this whole wet exhaust system. I mean why would anyone have a water pipe connected up to an exhaust system? Seems like a real good way to ruin an expensive engine. So I am trying to learn how these systems operate. Even a knockdown on your sailboat could send water into the engine even on a well designed wet exhaust system. I also understand part of the reason to have the "water lock muffler" is to prevent the corrosive salt air found in coastal areas from getting inside your engine. I was thinking draining my water lock after each use may be a way to protect engine from flooding, but the result may still be a rusted engine.

Maybe we convert to dilithium crystals and ion drive.


----------



## MedSailor

Here is the input from the Nauticat forum, which I haven't checked in over a week. I did NOT tell them yet about the plugged vent and at the time thought it was an oil cooler issue.

Several of them piped up and told me it was more likely a plugged anti-siphon loop vent. Perhaps this IS something that is a known issue on Nauticats afterall.... One even mentions the species of wasp that commonly causes this issue. Here's what they wrote.

---------------------------
*Post#1*
The Nauticat Lehman engines were all installed with an antisiphon hose which you will know is working if you see a small stream of water pouring out of it 's fitting high up in the freeboard, the pressure increases as you increase the rpms and won't be as noticeable at low idle.

When you shut doen the engine it prevents a vacuum from sucking raw water back up through the exhaust system and allowing same to get to the cylinders via the exhaust elbow, manifold etc.

Bob Smith and his son, American Diesel designed the Ford Lehman and basically make the same engine, same footprint today. They also stock a great inventory of Lehman parts and re more than helpful on the phone. --(Name removed)

------------------------------------------------
*Post#2*
Affectionately known as the "pissor"

(Name removed) 
Nc38-177
Sausalito, cA
------------------------------------------------
*Post #3*
the most common reason this happens is that mud dauber's build their homes in the anti-siphon hose while a boat is on the hard. Everything looks good when you start your engine after a winterization. However, when you turn off the key, the sea water continues to flow...

Placing cotton balls in the ends of the vents is a common checklist task when winterizing. Other people may have other suggestions.

The fact you didn't discover the issue until a long time after the water sat in the engine is awful.

We always check there is water coming out of the "pissor" when we first start the engine at dock. Sometimes you have to rev it up a little bit to be sure. If not, then either you have no water flow through the engine which means it will overheat, or you have a risk of siphoning water which means you need to be careful about how you shut down the engine... A coat hanger or vacuum might be in order before shutting off the engine, or you need to time turning off the seacock with shutting down the engine. 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

MedSailor


----------



## casey1999

Med,
If it was the Mud Dauber, things could have been worse:





"Birgenair Flight 301 was a flight chartered by Turkish-managed Birgenair partner Alas Nacionales ("National Wings") from Puerto Plata in the Dominican Republic to Frankfurt, Germany, via Gander, Canada, and Berlin, Germany. On 6 February 1996, the Boeing 757-225 operating the route crashed shortly after take-off from Puerto Plata's Gregorio Luperón International Airport.[1][2] There were no survivors. The cause was a pitot tube that investigators believe was blocked by a wasp nest that was built inside it. The aircraft had sat unused for some time without the required pitot tube covers in place."

Investigations later showed that the plane was actually travelling at 220 knots (410 km/h) at the time. The investigation concluded that one of three pitot tubes, used to measure airspeed, was blocked.

No tubes were recovered so investigators were unable to determine for certain what caused the blockage. Investigators believe that the most likely culprit was the black and yellow mud dauber, a type of solitary sphecid wasp well-known to Dominican pilots, which tends to establish its nest in artificial, cylindrical structures, or make its own cylindrical nest out of mud. According to final report, section 2.3 - "Aircraft maintenance factors", the aircraft had not flown in 20 days, however, this was not the period in which pitots remained uncovered, but enough to giving the wasps an opportunity to build nests in the tubes.[8][9]


----------



## bfloyd4445

casey1999 said:


> Hey, duct tape save Apollo 13. I love the stuff.
> 
> Since owning a boat, I never really have understood this whole wet exhaust system. I mean why would anyone have a water pipe connected up to an exhaust system? Seems like a real good way to ruin an expensive engine. So I am trying to learn how these systems operate. Even a knockdown on your sailboat could send water into the engine even on a well designed wet exhaust system. I also understand part of the reason to have the "water lock muffler" is to prevent the corrosive salt air found in coastal areas from getting inside your engine. I was thinking draining my water lock after each use may be a way to protect engine from flooding, but the result may still be a rusted engine.
> 
> Maybe we convert to dilithium crystals and ion drive.


all kidding aside, outboards today live a long time in the salt without any complicated exhaust system and raw water cooled......How can that be if salt air is so bad? Well Mercury does treat the insides of their engines with special coatings just to protect them so maybe that's the secret. Then we have the thumpers in the oil fields along the coast in salt air some have been operating for thirty years non stop injecting steam into the wells to force out crude. When I worked for epa we tested a few of them to insure they were in compliance with environmental regulations. They were slow engines if I remember correctly like 150rpm 24/7/365..year after year


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## casey1999

Med,
I think you found your smoking gun:
Beware of mud dauber wasp in Florida - SailboatOwners.com


----------



## casey1999

Deja Vu
Post #5

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/general-discussion-sailing-related/97476-salt-water-cylinders.html

water-cylinders.html

Re: Salt Water in the Cylinders

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A few years ago the "Siphon Break" vent to the outside in the above picture was clogged by a Mud Dauber Wasps nest. I only sail on weekends. The result was - Sometime during the week they made their nest. I went sailing the next weekend and everything worked fine, but when I shut the engine down I didn't realize that the hot engine Sucked exhaust cooling water as it cooled down into the cylinders. So..... the next weekend I tried to start but I was Hydrolocked, no turnover. A mechanic pulled the injectors, turned over the engine and sprayed out the water. The Oil Was Fine - No Water In It. Fired up the engine and all was well.
BUT...... if I didn't clean out the vent that was clogged the exact same thing would have happened again (I cleaned it out and installed a screen to keep them out).
So...... maybe you have a partial blockage in the vented siphon break ?

Follow up: Above was posted by:
Stan
'Christy Leigh'
NC 331
Wickford/Narragansett Bay RI 
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/members/christyleigh.html

Sailing a NC331 (NatiCat)


----------



## MedSailor

casey1999 said:


> Med,
> If it was the Mud Dauber, things could have been worse:
> Birgenair Flight 301 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> No tubes were recovered so investigators were unable to determine for certain what caused the blockage. Investigators believe that the most likely culprit was the black and yellow mud dauber, a type of solitary sphecid wasp well-known to Dominican pilots, which tends to establish its nest in artificial, cylindrical structures, or make its own cylindrical nest out of mud. According to final report, section 2.3 - "Aircraft maintenance factors", the aircraft had not flown in 20 days, however, this was not the period in which pitots remained uncovered, but enough to giving the wasps an opportunity to build nests in the tubes.[8][9]


Dang! I wonder if they live in Malaysia...

MedSailor


----------



## UnionPacific

MedSailor said:


> Are you suggesting that injected exhaust water could just flow right back into the manifold from this location? Well then.... um... yeah.... hmmm... it looks like it could do that doesn't it.
> 
> I don't have a picture of the construction of the elbow but basically the exhaust gas goes through a 2.5" diameter elbow and surrounding that elbow is a jacket that makes the downstream end of the elbow 3". The pipe you see injects water into this jacket and then mixes at the point where the 3" hose connects.
> 
> If this jacket system failed it could represent a failure point for sure. Visually it did not appear failed when I looked at it. I wonder why they have the exhaust exiting UP at a 45deg angle like they do. See picture with my pen pointing to the location of the elbow.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MedSailor


your elbow was mounted pointing up???????????? uke
There you go.


----------



## MedSailor

UnionPacific said:


> your elbow was mounted pointing up???????????? uke
> There you go.


The elbow was mounted as in the pictures in the manual. By "UP" I'm referring to the first half of the 90deg elbow as designed.

Like this:









Or this, but with the head and manifold attached. 









I'm not sure I follow what you're getting at. What do you see???

MedSailor


----------



## UnionPacific

MedSailor said:


> This is a fine point. (I assume by "fancy" you really mean "exhaust mixer elbow"). This kind of failure would spit water into the engine and some could leak back into it, but it wouldn't account for the gallons of water.
> 
> I really think a siphon has to be the culprit for many reasons. Not the least of which is that it's vent appears to be currently in a failed condition and while many points from the article about incorrect installations are valid, the boat has had this installation for many years.  I feel there has to be some point of recent failure, and the plugged vent may be it. So far it's the only part we've come across that is in a failed condition. The slight, small tear, in the impeller hardly counts.
> 
> One possible explanation for why the engine didn't flood when the boat was first lifted into the water is that while the vent may have been plugged, the anti-siphon loop itself wasn't full of water. If the vent was patent at the time of the sea trial, upon shutdown the anti-siphon loop would have drained to equal the hydrostatic pressure at the waterline.
> 
> Only then, after I ran the engine with the vent closed, would the entire anti-siphon loop be full of water and purged of air, allowing a siphon to form from the raw water intake OR the dripless shaft seal water supply, into the system filling it completely.
> 
> MedSailor


This is going to be hard to explain but here it goes.

when running, your exhaust hose is filled with water AND air. 
When you shut off the engine the air stops, but the water is still there.
It is not a solid tube of water, it is about 30% water, 70 air.
the siphon would only need to do any job if the entire pipe was FULL of water, AND the end sticking out of the boat was under water. 
Thats ALL it does, is prevent water coming into the boat from the opening at the end of the pipe IF the end is under water.
It has nothing to do with the pump at all.

Answer this

1. why did the first surveyor think the oil cooler was broken?
Water in the oil???????

2. Is the mix elbow ABOVE or BELOW the external water line?

3. Is the elbow extremely pitted inside?


----------



## casey1999

Well next time I go to the boat I am checking my vented loop, and before each use. I got tons of mud wasp on my boat and in the sails.

Also a heads up to check your fuel tank vent- clogged vent the tank will pull vacuum until fuel flow stops, then engine.


----------



## MedSailor

UnionPacific said:


> This is going to be hard to explain but here it goes.
> 
> Answer this
> 
> 1. why did the first surveyor think the oil cooler was broken?
> Water in the oil???????


No. An oil sample was taken and sent to the lab. 0% water was found. He thought it looked old and corroded from external visual inspection. It tested ok to 120psi on the bench at autopsy.



UnionPacific said:


> 2. Is the mix elbow ABOVE or BELOW the external water line?


Not certain about this. I'll be able to answer this definately on Thursday or Friday. I believe it is below the water line



UnionPacific said:


> 3. Is the elbow extremely pitted inside?


No, it looked good to my visual inspection. Some carbon, but no caking or anything like that. No visible corrosion or pitting.

What I also don't know right now is exactly WHERE in this system the anti-siphon is. I don't think it matters much though because if the siphon tube is the only part of the system that is above the waterline, and the vent plugs, than it will fill that 70% airspace you referred to. That's dependant on the elbow being below the water though...









MedSailor


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## casey1999

UnionPacific said:


> This is going to be hard to explain but here it goes.
> 
> when running, your exhaust hose is filled with water AND air.
> When you shut off the engine the air stops, but the water is still there.
> It is not a solid tube of water, it is about 30% water, 70 air.
> the siphon would only need to do any job if the entire pipe was FULL of water, AND the end sticking out of the boat was under water.
> Thats ALL it does, is prevent water coming into the boat from the opening at the end of the pipe IF the end is under water.
> It has nothing to do with the pump at all.
> 
> Answer this
> 
> 1. why did the first surveyor think the oil cooler was broken?
> Water in the oil???????
> 
> 2. Is the mix elbow ABOVE or BELOW the external water line?
> 
> 3. Is the elbow extremely pitted inside?


Don't quite agree. My vented u tube is like meds. It prevents sea water siphoning from seacock, through sea water pump, then to the engine or bypass direct to manifold and exhaust mixing elbow. My exhaust at boat hull is always above water, yet I still need anti siphon.


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## tommays

MedSailor said:


> The elbow was mounted as in the pictures in the manual. By "UP" I'm referring to the first half of the 90deg elbow as designed.
> 
> Like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or this, but with the head and manifold attached.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure I follow what you're getting at. What do you see???
> 
> MedSailor


The elbow has a homemade Stainless Steel look ? or what welded material is it made of

Welded SS has not proven to be great exhaust material as all kinds of funny things can happen to the weld in places you cant see 



450 dollars is pretty normal for and elbow BUT in looking at the ebay picture i can in fact see all kinds of chaos happing to the inside welds


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## UnionPacific

casey1999 said:


> Well next time I go to the boat I am checking my vented loop, and before each use. I got tons of mud wasp on my boat and in the sails.
> 
> Also a heads up to check your fuel tank vent- clogged vent the tank will pull vacuum until fuel flow stops, then engine.


Do yourself a big favor, and just make sure your exhaust exits above the water line. Otherwise, do worry about the loop unless your sailing. 
Just an FYI mine does not even have a loop.;..;.l;.l.;.kojlkjhlj/;kll;'kk"l;k
Not really needed in a properly setup system.


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## UnionPacific

casey1999 said:


> Don't quite agree. My vented u tube is like meds. It prevents sea water siphoning from seacock, through sea water pump, then to the engine or bypass direct to manifold and exhaust mixing elbow. My exhaust at boat hull is always above water, yet I still need anti siphon.


NO, that is not what it does at all.
:batter:batter:batter:batter:batter


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## MedSailor

UnionPacific said:


> This is going to be hard to explain but here it goes.
> 
> when running, your exhaust hose is filled with water AND air.
> When you shut off the engine the air stops, but the water is still there.
> It is not a solid tube of water, it is about 30% water, 70 air.
> the siphon would only need to do any job if the entire pipe was FULL of water, AND the end sticking out of the boat was under water.
> *Thats ALL it does, is prevent water coming into the boat from the opening at the end of the pipe IF the end is under water.
> It has nothing to do with the pump at all.*


I don't believe an impeller will stop flow. Therefore, if my engine is below the waterline the siphon can come IN the raw water intake, go past the impeller, through the oil cooler and trannie cooler, and up and into the cylinders. This is how I believe it can happen on my boat without the exhaust outlet being underwater.

MedSailor


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## UnionPacific

MedSailor said:


> I don't believe an impeller will stop flow. Therefore, if my engine is below the waterline the siphon can come IN the raw water intake, go past the impeller, through the oil cooler and trannie cooler, and up and into the cylinders. This is how I believe it can happen on my boat without the exhaust outlet being underwater.
> 
> MedSailor


I agree, if your exhaust elbow is under the water line, this may happen.
Has nothing to do with the anti-spihon valve, simply poor design, and I highly doubt this is the problem. Wish the boat was still in FL, I would be over in 5 min, and find the issue.


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## MedSailor

UnionPacific said:


> I agree, if your exhaust elbow is under the water line, this may happen.
> Has nothing to do with the anti-spihon valve, simply poor design, and I highly doubt this is the problem. Wish the boat was still in FL, I would be over and 5 min, and find the issue.


Why would the anti-siphon vent not prevent this? If the clogged vent isn't the issue, and it's a bad install design, why isn't it happening every time the boat is in the water?

To put it another way, if the raw water intake is open, and the engine is below the waterline, (forgetting everything else) what stops water from freely flowing into the cylinders with a design like this?

MedSailor


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## UnionPacific

water cannot flow uphill, AKA beyond the waterline.
Or are you saying this anti-siphon is on your water intake hose this whole time?


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## casey1999

UnionPacific said:


> NO, that is not what it does at all.
> :batter:batter:batter:batter:batter


http://j30.us/files/yanmar-manual.pdf

go to page 11 and view the lower diagram engine below water. This is my installation (and similar to Meds from what I understand) except I have a vented U anti siphon- just like Meds. It has worked for thirty years.


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## UnionPacific

MedSailor said:


> Why would the anti-siphon vent not prevent this? If the clogged vent isn't the issue, and it's a bad install design, why isn't it happening every time the boat is in the water?
> 
> To put it another way, if the raw water intake is open, and the engine is below the waterline, (forgetting everything else) what stops water from freely flowing into the cylinders with a design like this?
> 
> MedSailor


because the only way(aside from a failure in the oil cooler) for water to enter the engine from the water intake/thru-hull is thru the exhaust elbow. 
In order for water to get that high, it would have to be below the water line, or have failed.


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## tommays

Med


I did got to school for well over 1000 hours as a youngster





I would capping off the end of that elbow and pressure testing it as that is a really common inboard anything failure point


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## casey1999

tommays said:


> The elbow has a homemade Stainless Steel look ? or what welded material is it made of
> 
> Welded SS has not proven to be great exhaust material as all kinds of funny things can happen to the weld in places you cant see
> 
> 
> 
> 450 dollars is pretty normal for and elbow BUT in looking at the ebay picture i can in fact see all kinds of chaos happing to the inside welds


Med,
I believe that is why these elbows are maintenance items, probably should be changed out every few years to be safe as one of the links I posted stated it should be. Actually, the exhaust manifolds are considered a maintenace item and should be changed based on your observed corrosion rate.


----------



## MedSailor

UnionPacific said:


> water cannot flow uphill, AKA beyond the waterline.
> Or are you saying this anti-siphon is on your water intake hose this whole time?


In my example the engine is below the waterline. It's not going uphill relative to the waterline, only relative to the raw water intake. 

The water at raw water intake will have a certain amount of hydrostatic pressure which is proportional to depth. If once connects a hose to the raw water intake and opens the seacock, the hose spills water right? It travels "uphill" in the hose and out of the hose until you hold the hose higher than the waterline. Then there is no hydrostatic pressure at all.

If my engine is below the waterline, and you take that same hose (that is below the waterline and is spilling water, and attach it to the exhaust elbow, it would fill the engine yes?

So, the anti-siphon loop is installed somewhere before the exhaust elbow. Since it is open to the atmosphere (when not plugged) it is like the open ended hose. Water flows "uphill" on one side of the loop until it reaches the waterline and then it stops.

In my case, the vent was plugged, so it did not act like the open end of a hose, it acted more like a closed loop of hose and water was allowed to flow into the engine.

Make sense?

MedSailor


----------



## UnionPacific

You have TWO oil coolers, he did check the one for the engine, right?
Dumb questions are helpful sometimes....


----------



## UnionPacific

MedSailor said:


> In my example the engine is below the waterline. It's not going uphill relative to the waterline, only relative to the raw water intake.
> 
> The water at raw water intake will have a certain amount of hydrostatic pressure which is proportional to depth. If once connects a hose to the raw water intake and opens the seacock, the hose spills water right? It travels "uphill" in the hose and out of the hose until you hold the hose higher than the waterline. Then there is no hydrostatic pressure at all.
> 
> If my engine is below the waterline, and you take that same hose (that is below the waterline and is spilling water, and attach it to the exhaust elbow, it would fill the engine yes?
> 
> So, the anti-siphon loop is installed somewhere before the exhaust elbow. Since it is open to the atmosphere (when not plugged) it is like the open ended hose. Water flows "uphill" on one side of the loop until it reaches the waterline and then it stops.
> 
> In my case, the vent was plugged, so it did not act like the open end of a hose, it acted more like a closed loop of hose and water was allowed to flow into the engine.
> 
> Make sense?
> 
> MedSailor


That is what I asked before, was the anti-siphon on the intake hose, or the exhaust hose?


----------



## MedSailor

UnionPacific said:


> That is what I asked before, was the anti-siphon on the intake hose, or the exhaust hose?


Unfortunately I don't know the answer to this. It was disassembled when I wasn't there by the yard guys who said the boat didn't have an anti-siphon loop. I'll try and figure out where it is installed when I go to the boat later this week.

Luckily I have a diesel genset that was also installed at the factory and it has an identical loop and vent and muffler etc. Basically it should be a mirror image of my engine install that is still in situ. I'll hopefully be able to figure out exactly where it was in the system.

Good point about checking the trannie cooler.... Though now that I think about it, a failure of it would only put oil into the transmission, not the engine. Also the engine oil cooler couldn't have put water in the cylinders, and it was definitely there.

MedSailor


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## UnionPacific

let me get this straight.
water goes into your intake, thru the pump, thru the heat exchanger, then the water goes to a siphon break, then to your mixing elbow?
If so, and that siphon is not working it WILL flood the engine.

I need to know what point the siphon break is exactly to tell you if this was the cause.


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## UnionPacific

If the elbow is below the waterline, I suggest this for ANY engine you get next...








Then you don't need a siphon break.


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## UnionPacific

Is the siphon at the gooseneck location or the "air vent" location?
like I said above.










Time for a high rise elbow, once the insurance pays, because really, if that was plugged, then it really was an outside force, not a mechanical failure.
Your negligent, but insurance covers that


----------



## UnionPacific

The problem I am having is with the size of this hose.

Upon further review, its not your exhaust hose, BUT, it seems too big for a waterhose?
Could this be for your maceration?


----------



## Capt Len

Before we all get carried away with nonsense. A valid question about placement of anti siphon. Usually placed so that the vent pees overboard and output goes to elbow and drains that length of hose to the muffler which is big enough to hold it and any water still in the exhaust pipe. This part is below the mixer as far as possible. No room ? raise the mixer .I like to have it downhill to the transom so that means an up from the muffler. (less water lying in the pipe.) But thats my choice. I have a shut off at the transom for unwanted ingress from swells. And the muffler has a valve on the side to prevent just what happened to Med. Used to be manual ball valve and then on a pull cable and finally solenoid closed by oil pressure switch.I really like that. The other place for anti siphon is on the raw water inlet This is my choice too. Ordinary U with a small hole drilled in the top plug. Hose up from seacock and back down to pump. which now sucks a bit of air when it's running. Shut off and no more water can get in. If pump seal fail it drains couple of litres ?? to the bilge. That's it! Except for closing thruhull just because it'a good idea and checking dipstick for the same reason.


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## Capt Len

Med, was that a picture of your manifold end with the two plugged bolt holes? If so what holds the coolant in when the mixer plate gasket fails. Most likely find it in a cylinder. Needs all 4 bolts evenly torqued and even then easily screwed. Edit.. found the pic, not yours,,, but comment holds.


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## sailorbill1

Just ad to say, seen a tai boat with a teak deck leak like a sieve, absolutely poor in; the water in the oil is very interesting, dip stick in !


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## mitiempo

What I don't understand is why an anti-siphon tube from an exhaust elbow exits through the hull side. I have seen several installations where it exits in the cockpit (over a drain) where it spits a bit with the engine running - a quick and easy visual tells you that the cooling water is flowing and that the opening is clear of debris. No matter how high it is installed on many boats it can be underwater at times.


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## casey1999

mitiempo said:


> What I don't understand is why an anti-siphon tube from an exhaust elbow exits through the hull side. I have seen several installations where it exits in the cockpit (over a drain) where it spits a bit with the engine running - a quick and easy visual tells you that the cooling water is flowing and that the opening is clear of debris. No matter how high it is installed on many boats it can be underwater at times.


The vent should run horizontal from the u tube at the anti siphon. If runs up vertically to a higher point, a siphon will occur until air enters the u tube. The vent tube should be as short as possible for the same reason. Many engines flood at sea, the reason one should secure the raw water seasick as well as secure the exhaust from following sea entering, and drain water muffler when conditions could lead to knock down.


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## UnionPacific

casey1999 said:


> Many engines flood at sea, the reason one should secure the raw water seasick as well as secure the exhaust from following sea entering, and drain water muffler when conditions could lead to knock down.


I had never thought of emptying my lift muffler while at sea. I think thats a great idea, I am not 100% sure it has a drain thou...


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## casey1999

UnionPacific said:


> I had never thought of emptying my lift muffler while at sea. I think thats a great idea, I am not 100% sure it has a drain thou...


I have one of the Vetus models- they have a plastic plug cap I can unscrew- I will probably modify using a valve and hose to carry the water direct to the bilge.


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## zedboy

Just wanted to share this with the class, especially those (like me) who are struggling to understand a lot of things they have thankfully never had to deal with:

Exhaust Risers - Marine Engines : Boats and Yachts Maintenance, Repairs and Troubleshooting :

This is a nice illustrated article by David Pascoe on the fun of marine wet exhaust systems. He only touches on the siphon issue that seems to be the culprit here, but there is a lot of good background info for how these systems work and how they fail.

Pascoe is controversial on some topics (eg osmotic blistering) but here I think he's pretty safe.

Med, may the good karma and education your experiences are providing for the rest of us come back to help you when you need it most!


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## JonEisberg

UnionPacific said:


> I had never thought of emptying my lift muffler while at sea. I think thats a great idea, I am not 100% sure it has a drain thou...


I've always been amazed the ability to pump out or drain a waterlift is not more common, I rate it as an important feature in a boat likely to encounter heavy weather offshore... No matter how any exhaust system is configured, an engine can easily be disabled in a knockdown... Then again, even something as fundamental as a shut-off valve/seacock of the exhaust is pretty rare, you're lucky if you get so much as one of those little flapper valves on a boat, today... 

One reason I like a thicker-walled waterlift like those from Verna-Lift, it's much easier and more secure to tap in a drain plug or similar fitting from which to evacuate the box... I hate those waterlifts from Vetus, I think they're crap and typically undersized, and those plastic walls are way too thin for comfort, or to thread a fitting into...

Evans Starzinger rates water backing up into the engine as far and away the most common manner in which engines are disabled offshore, or in heavy weather... There's just no excuse for how vulnerable so many installations are to such an occurrence...

I'm a big fan of the exhaust thru-hulll discharge being located in the topsides at the stern quarter or side of the hull, as opposed to the transom. First off, the run is often considerably shorter, thus reducing back pressure and the amount of water that will drain back into the waterlift. Of course it's less vulnerable to water being 'driven' or forced back into the exhaust by a following sea. And, it's generally so much easier to 'monitor' the status of your exhaust discharge while underway with it moved further forward. Transom exhausts often become a case of 'Out of sight, out of mind', as they are sometimes submerged by the wake, or inaudible to a watchstander that might be situated some distance away from the transom or helm, huddled up under the dodger, for instance. Also, if you have a shut-off valve at the exhaust fitting, placing it in the transom usually makes access to it very inconvenient, one might have to climb down into a cockpit locker, and re-arrange a lot of stowed gear to reach it. On my boat, shutting off the exhaust seacock is simply a matter of opening the starboard seat locker lid, and it's sitting right there...

Med's Nauticat might seem a good candidate for what is often referred to as a 'North Sea' exhaust setup, where beyond the waterlift the exhaust line runs to a tee, which splits the run to discharges out either side of the hull... The rationale being, no matter what the conditions, one outlet will always remain above the water, and inhibit the development of any sort of backflow or siphon...

Still, there's no better substitute for a shut-off valve that can be easily accessed, in my opinion... As long as you remember to reopen it before re-starting the engine, of course  You must absolutely configure some fail-safe method of the reminder to do so, I have an assortment of labels that get clipped to the ignition key that indicate anything that might need to be done prior to starting - opening the raw water seacock, uncapping the fuel vent, and so on...


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## MedSailor

John, thanks for your thoughts. I've been dreaming of ways to improve my exhaust setup, as you might imagine. 










My exhaust discharge is located amidships on the port side, (engine is the larger lower one, and the genset exhaust is next to it. The smallest ones up top are the siphon vents. Others are discharges for some of the boat's 9 bilge pumps) which is a location I approve of. I need not worry about a following sea, or filling it up if lying to a JSD etc. I even approve of their choice of sides, as heaving to on a starboard tack is preferred. It's almost as if they thought of this stuff.... I do plan to install shutoff valves on these exhaust exits and either hang the ignition key on them when closed, or get some "remove befor flight" tags to use.

Yet, they didn't idiotproof the setup, or wasp-proof it. 










I've also imagined ways to run the "pisser" (anti siphon vent) to the cockpit where it's visible, or to both sides of the boat. Running the exhaust to both sides I had not yet considered... I'm definately putting in a drain to the lift muffler. It would come in handy for lots of reasons, like cranking while bleeding the engine, or just emptying it in heavy weather. This one (mine) looks like it's in need of emptying right now. 










Lucky for me there is an easy engine room access hatch from the sauna that puts me right on top of the lift muffler, and gives quick access to the intake through hulls and sea strainers. It'll make access to a muffler bilge drain easy. Again, it's almost like someone was thinking about all this....

MedSailor


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## bfloyd4445

Capt Len said:


> Before we all get carried away with nonsense. A valid question about placement of anti siphon. Usually placed so that the vent pees overboard and output goes to elbow and drains that length of hose to the muffler which is big enough to hold it and any water still in the exhaust pipe. This part is below the mixer as far as possible. No room ? raise the mixer .I like to have it downhill to the transom so that means an up from the muffler. (less water lying in the pipe.) But thats my choice. I have a shut off at the transom for unwanted ingress from swells. And the muffler has a valve on the side to prevent just what happened to Med. Used to be manual ball valve and then on a pull cable and finally solenoid closed by oil pressure switch.I really like that. The other place for anti siphon is on the raw water inlet This is my choice too. Ordinary U with a small hole drilled in the top plug. Hose up from seacock and back down to pump. which now sucks a bit of air when it's running. Shut off and no more water can get in. If pump seal fail it drains couple of litres ?? to the bilge. That's it! Except for closing thruhull just because it'a good idea and checking dipstick for the same reason.


Why not add a flapper valve at the vent or discharge port which only allows free flow out not in to prevent ingress from swells? I've never had issues like this but I can certainly appreciate the problems that can be caused by poorly engineered exhaust systems


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## miatapaul

Hey one simple thing, have you happened to contact the former owner, and ask if they have any advice as to how this happened. He/she may have some insight if you make it clear you are not blaming them or trying to get money back from them. They might have experienced something similar.


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## casey1999

JonEisberg said:


> Still, there's no better substitute for a shut-off valve that can be easily accessed, in my opinion... As long as you remember to reopen it before re-starting the engine, of course  You must absolutely configure some fail-safe method of the reminder to do so, I have an assortment of labels that get clipped to the ignition key that indicate anything that might need to be done prior to starting - opening the raw water seacock, uncapping the fuel vent, and so on...


Jon,
I plan to install an exhaust shut off valve- what would happen if the valve were accidentally left closed and the engine was cranked to start? What type of valve do you use for the exhaust shut off? When you cap your fuel vent, does not changes in atmospheric pressure causes stresses on your fuel tank (I was considering a vent cap but was concered about maybe making stress cracks in the tank, but maybe it is a non-issue).


----------



## bfloyd4445

casey1999 said:


> Jon,
> I plan to install an exhaust shut off valve- what would happen if the valve were accidentally left closed and the engine was cranked to start? What type of valve do you use for the exhaust shut off? When you cap your fuel vent, does not changes in atmospheric pressure causes stresses on your fuel tank (I was considering a vent cap but was concered about maybe making stress cracks in the tank, but maybe it is a non-issue).


why not use a flapper type valve? These are like a pet door, foot valve, check valve, but only open one way so they allow free flow out but when the sea hits them from outside the presure just seals them closed. I've used lots of these valves for fuel storage to keep water out


----------



## casey1999

bfloyd4445 said:


> why not use a flapper type valve? These are like a pet door, foot valve, check valve, but only open one way so they allow free flow out but when the sea hits them from outside the presure just seals them closed. I've used lots of these valves for fuel storage to keep water out


I would rather use say a nice bronze marine ball valve (that gives 100% port opening). Flappers are like checks- not 100%. And any rubber flapper on the outside of my boat will not last long in the strong UV of Hawaii. When I say 100 o/o I mean 100 o/o reliable.


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## tommays

The flapper thing never worked out long term on sterndrives as something always goes wrong that cant be seen till its to LATE

Believe it or NOT even the current BIG outboards on fishing boats have to wary of shutting down the motors when fishing in big swells as water can reach the lowest cylinders


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## Capt Len

May I suggest again that sliding dagger type valves designed for rec vehicle black water tanks (about $20) are easy to install anywhere in the rubber exhaust hose remote with a broom handle push/pull .For many years I've been making SS aqua lift mufflers with a threaded fitting for draining .Even a manual ball valve gives you some alternatives to flooding the engine but I eventually ended up with a normal open solenoid ganged short nippled to the ball valve .Height placement of fitting determines draining all, some or just insure no flooding engine at rest. AS for flapper, consider if each wave allows in a 1/8 cup of ocean once in a while. It's surging forth and back in the poorly thought out hose.and will, I can guarantee, eventually fill any muffler and then the mixer elbow Poorly equipped resistance is futile. AS for side dumping a wet exhaust never liked it. At some condition you will defiantly smell the fumes. Side of boat is dirty and a roll or side slam of big chop water will enter the workings If plumbed thoughtfully two side exhaust has its advantages one of which is two holes in the sides for water entry !


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## bfloyd4445

casey1999 said:


> I would rather use say a nice bronze marine ball valve (that gives 100% port opening). Flappers are like checks- not 100%. And any rubber flapper on the outside of my boat will not last long in the strong UV of Hawaii.


there not made of rubber but some do have a rubber or teflon like seal on the inside. Here is a discussion of two different types of stainless flapper valve materials

Eng-Tips: Material engineering other topics - Help: Uddeholm 716 vs. Sandvik 7C27Mo2

these are more what I was referring to to give you an idea. Alpi Industrial Supply


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## JonEisberg

casey1999 said:


> Jon,
> I plan to install an exhaust shut off valve- what would happen if the valve were accidentally left closed and the engine was cranked to start?


I only made that mistake once  If the engine does start, something's gotta give, in my case it simply blew the hose off one of the elbow fittings somewhere in the system... No real harm done, but I imagine it could have been worse...



casey1999 said:


> What type of valve do you use for the exhaust shut off? When you cap your fuel vent, does not changes in atmospheric pressure causes stresses on your fuel tank (I was considering a vent cap but was concered about maybe making stress cracks in the tank, but maybe it is a non-issue).


I've used a Marelon seacock from Forespar...

I can't imagine capping my fuel vent is ever gonna create a problem, it's probably not an absolutely airtight seal anyway, the primary purpose is to keep water, and hopefully the worst of the winter moisture here out of the tank... I built my fuel tank myself using West System epoxy, it's pretty overbuilt, hard for me to visualize it ever being burst due a change in atmospheric pressure... It survived being capped during Hurricane Sandy, after all, the the barometer dropped more than a little bit that night, I seem to recall...


----------



## bfloyd4445

JonEisberg said:


> I only made that mistake once  If the engine does start, something's gotta give, in my case it simply blew the hose off one of the elbow fittings somewhere in the system... No real harm done, but I imagine it could have been worse...
> 
> I've used a Marelon seacock from Forespar...
> 
> I can't imagine capping my fuel vent is ever gonna create a problem, it's probably not an absolutely airtight seal anyway, the primary purpose is to keep water, and hopefully the worst of the winter moisture here out of the tank... I built my fuel tank myself using West System epoxy, it's pretty overbuilt, hard for me to visualize it ever being burst due a change in atmospheric pressure... It survived being capped during Hurricane Sandy, after all, the the barometer dropped more than a little bit that night, I seem to recall...


there's lots more going on there and simple air pressure. If your intent is to do this when layed up for the winter you will be fine however, gasoline changes over time decomposing into all kinds of stuff so don't forget a feul stabilizer. If Diesel you can get microbial decomposition so you should aditives to stop this.
Don't forget to take the cap off in the spring....I've never had an issue but I always store boats with full tanks stabilized, well except for my trawler but that got run often so it wasn't an issue

oh, almost forgot, if that's a pix of your boat she is looking good!


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## Faster

bfloyd4445 said:


> ......
> 
> oh, almost forgot, if that's a pix of your boat she is looking good!


Yes but his front lawn, not so much!!


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## Capt Len

And the lawn ornament (the one with the mast showing) isn't doing so well either.


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## mitiempo

casey1999 said:


> The vent should run horizontal from the u tube at the anti siphon. If runs up vertically to a higher point, a siphon will occur until air enters the u tube. The vent tube should be as short as possible for the same reason.


All the more reason to run the anti siphon vent to the cockpit well. It certainly will be lower than exiting just under the deck in the topsides as pictured.


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## mitiempo

bfloyd4445 said:


> Why not add a flapper valve at the vent or discharge port which only allows free flow out not in to prevent ingress from swells? I've never had issues like this but I can certainly appreciate the problems that can be caused by poorly engineered exhaust systems


Wouldn't work - the anti-siphon works because it lets air in which would be restricted by a flapper.


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## casey1999

mitiempo said:


> All the more reason to run the anti siphon vent to the cockpit well. It certainly will be lower than exiting just under the deck in the topsides as pictured.


Depends on the boat. To get to the cockpit on my boat would add 2 feet of vertical and defeat the anti siphon.


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## mitiempo

casey1999 said:


> Depends on the boat. To get to the cockpit on my boat would add 2 feet of vertical and defeat the anti siphon.


This post isn't about your boat.


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## MedSailor

The surveyor and I have emailed back and fourth a couple times, and he's finalizing his opinion he says. He doesn't buy the siphon theory, and is favoring the theory that I was loaded on the truck bow down and while going down a hill water from the exhaust came up into the engine.

We thought of this when it first happened but it was discounted because I could start the engine. Surveyor says, the water leaked past the rings and residual oil allowed me to start and run the engine.

This photo apparently shows my boat improperly loaded. It looks pretty level to me, with some photographic foreshortening....

From Sailnet
Here's another:

From Sailnet

I'm at the point where I've said my piece a couple times and I get the distinct ipression that further input from the peanut gallery (me) is no longer welcome. He says he will submit his findings to insurance soon.

Do you guys think his version of events in possible? What about the siphon? If my engine is indeed below the waterline, what the heck does keep it from flooding?

The question I'm tempted to ask, but won't is, "So you're okay with insurance buying me a new engine and me putting it in the boat with the siphon vent still plugged? Are you okay with me running the new engine a couple times at the dock with the (supurflous) plugged vent???"

Meanwhile someone on the Nauticat forum posted twice about what an idiot I am and is incredulous that any Nauticat owner would be so stupid as to not know about "the pisser" and not know that ignoring it can ruin your engine...

MedSailor


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## paul323

Well, if the boat was improperly loaded, then surely that means insurance - either yours or the shippers' - will cover it? If so, I'd accept the Surveyors findings gracefully - and make sure your new engine installation takes into account the "vulnerabilities" we have been discussing here. So perhaps a good outcome all around?


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## UnionPacific

your giving me a headache now.
I have moved dozens of boats, some cantered at 35 degree angles, some nose high, some nose low. The inclines it will be subjected to are up to 40 degrees at times going in and out of lots, not to mention hard braking, and large bumps. 
The boat would have needed to be prepped prior to movement, this means ALL fluids drained except engine oil. Even the diesel tank should have been mostly empty.
As the transporter we are not responsible for any interior damage whatsoever.
Your boat needs to be ready to be subjected to every road co0ndition imaginable.
We are only responsible for external physical damage and theft.
This is a false premise that it was nose down, and frankly your surveyor sounds like a lot of other surveyors I have heard about, a real POS. Most don't know their ass from a cutlass bearing, but are old fogies who think they have a clue.
Stop calling him, and call the insurance CO with your ideas, he can't tell them to bugger off.
OR hire your own engine surveyor.


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## paul323

Union, you're right about the shipping, and how the boat should be prepped - but remember this is the yard that vandalized the pedestal, cutting the wires and letting hydraulic fluid leak all over the place? And left the cabin contents unsecured so everything could be thrown around? It seems surprising that a company that did that would carefully drain all the fluids. So I mis-spoke; perhaps I should have said "improperly prepped" not "improperly loaded."


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## UnionPacific

Med also said that the surveyor said it was improperly loaded.


----------



## Skipper Jer

Does the amount of water in the oil pan match the water capacity of the exhaust system? 
And is the water fresh or salt?


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## Capt Len

So now it's insurance finger pointing time .If the finger is pointing away ,good , let them scrap it out. Accept a newly rebuilt engine installed and using what we've all learned on this thread to MAKE SURE it does't happen again.


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## MedSailor

Fair warning to all, I may not be able to talk about all this publicly much in the coming days to weeks. This may suddenly get more complicated. 

As far as the competing theories go, for the purposes of staying safe in the future, I'm going to list ALL of them that have been discussed as possible failure points and address ALL of them. ie if th exhaust elbow wasn't at play, or the manifold wasn't an issue, or head gasket, they're all going to have the eye of suspicion upon them from now on as they represent possible major failure points in my engine/installation. 

MedSailor


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## casey1999

Med,
I am not sure how this might effect engine flooding, but with a wet exhaust system there are a lot of unknows as to what conditions exactly could lead to flooding.

You may want to check any obstructions in your exhaust system including the mixing elbow, all hoses, and the water lock muffler. I would imagine an obstruction could lead to backing up water and say a water lock muffler that is partially filled with gunk would mean you have less reservoir capacity to hold the backwash of cooling water that is contained in your exhaust system. Extra water your water lift can not contain could enter your engine.


----------



## Jaramaz

MedSailor said:


> Fair warning to all, I may not be able to talk about all this publicly much in the coming days to weeks. This may suddenly get more complicated.
> 
> As far as the competing theories go, for the purposes of staying safe in the future, I'm going to list ALL of them that have been discussed as possible failure points and address ALL of them. ie if th exhaust elbow wasn't at play, or the manifold wasn't an issue, or head gasket, they're all going to have the eye of suspicion upon them from now on as they represent possible major failure points in my engine/installation.
> 
> MedSailor


Yes, Med, I think you should. Not say much more, that is.

To answer your earlier question - No, it is difficult to think a less working - in the way you have described it - anti-siphone would cause this ( I am not going through all arguments here).

Honestly, these engines are in many NC as you have pointed out. Not many have these problems. Among my friends more than one have a NC (quite popular jere for some strange reason) - no one has had these problems.

Best of luck !

/J


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## casey1999

mitiempo said:


> This post isn't about your boat.


Changing the configuration on Meds boat to do as you state may render the anti siphon useless in certain situations. Why mess with something that has worked on many similar NC boats when one is really not sure what the outcome would be? My motto is if it ain't broke don't fix it. As with many things like wet exhaust system, one may try to make "improvements" only to actually make matters worse. For example in some situations it may work great to have the siphon vent in the cockpit. But what happens if your cockpit is flooded by a wave? Now the water will be forced into the siphon break through the vent and that alone could cause engine flooding.

You say we are not talking about my boat. Sure we are not, however we are all trying to learn from this post and Meds' issues to try to correct and deficiencies on all our boats to try to prevent a similar occurrence.

Me, I know I am going to be checking for mud wasp at my vent tube, and take the tube off and do blow both into the anti siphon and the hull fitting. I am also going to check my exhaust for obstruction and replace my rusty mixing elbow. And will probably change out my raw water cooled exhaust header in the next few months, along with adding exhaust shut-off valve, and vent tube shut off valve, and an easy drain system for my water lock muffler.


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## Capt Len

A good start ,Casey. I'll bet many readers of this thread are saying 'there but by the grace' If not they should. Now we wait for the exciting conclusion to this reality lesson After a word from some late comers who haven't read the whole thread. Or perhaps we could morph into techniques for lifting wet engines on to the dock or plasta gauging journals before ordering parts. Stuff that many might find interesting if not useful after filling their own engines


----------



## IStream

Med,

Let's give your insurance company's engine surveyor the benefit of the doubt for a minute. You posited at one point that the engine wouldn't have run for you in WA if it'd had all that water in the case already. However, that's not necessarily true. 

Let's say the water did back into the engine during delivery and leaked down into the case. The damage at that point would've consisted largely of rust in those cylinders with open exhaust valves, more so in the ones closest to the aqualift, and water in the sump but not a lot else. Obviously, it's not healthy for the motor to have rusty valves and rings in a couple of cylinders but it wouldn't necessarily have prevented it from starting and running. 

Fast forward to when you fire it up and run it for five minutes. Now you're circulating water through the motor's oil passages, bearings, etc. but if you didn't put it under a significant load, I can imagine it seemingly running fine despite the main bearings getting trashed, especially since it's a new motor to you and you're not familiar with its normal sound and vibration characteristics. It's only after some time that it would seize due to the systemic distribution of the water in place of oil followed by corrosion. 

I think this is entirely plausible and would make the plugged vented loop a red herring. The vented loop is designed to deal with the specific circumstance of the engine being shut down while the exhaust outlet is under water. If neither condition is true, the vented loop doesn't do a thing because there's no continuous water column in place to pull a vacuum and maintain a siphon into the engine. After all, if Nauticat's original engine installation was prone to self-destruction immediately upon the failure of a vented loop these suckers would be dying left and right.


----------



## casey1999

Capt Len said:


> A good start ,Casey. I'll bet many readers of this thread are saying 'there but by the grace' If not they should. Now we wait for the exciting conclusion to this reality lesson After a word from some late comers who haven't read the whole thread. Or perhaps we could morph into techniques for lifting wet engines on to the dock or plasta gauging journals before ordering parts. Stuff that many might find interesting if not useful after filling their engines


Hey Capt,
Yes I think we are all on the same page. I tell you what, I have learned a lot from this thread about wet exhaust. Meds system may be installed correctly, but I'll bet there are a lot of boats out there that have wet exhaust installed by experienced people that are still done wrong. Even some of the engine's manufacturers' installation literature is wrong, or at least confusing. Even a "correctly installed" wet exhaust could lead to engine flooding under certain conditions. There are some good ideas in this thread how one can make their wet exhaust "nearly" bullet proof.

Regards to all for the advice- now I got some work to do.


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## Maine Sail

mitiempo said:


> All the more reason to run the anti siphon vent to the cockpit well. It certainly will be lower than exiting just under the deck in the topsides as pictured.


Personally I prefer an internal vacuum breaker such as teh one made by Scot Pump Co.. I have not seen one go bad, they are extremely reliable, and have some on boats with 6k plus hours...

Personally I am not a fan of _hose vented_ siphon breaks because they can, well, get plugged by bugs etc... Some of them are also of a horrible design or botched by the builder










This hack job by Ericson Yachts sprayed salt water all over an engine compartment for at least 12 hours, but had been leaking for a while. There was salt water & corrosion everywhere, and the rust that goes with it!!!!


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## UnionPacific

Maine Sail said:


>


looks like a steel bung on a bronze pipe?


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## casey1999

IStream said:


> Med,
> 
> The vented loop is designed to deal with the specific circumstance of the engine being shut down while the exhaust outlet is under water. If neither condition is true, the vented loop doesn't do a thing because there's no continuous water column in place to pull a vacuum and maintain a siphon into the engine. After all, if Nauticat's original engine installation was prone to self-destruction immediately upon the failure of a vented loop these suckers would be dying left and right.


I agree with what you have said, however I believe the vent loop also provides protection against siphoning from the engines raw water inlet, passing the raw water pump and to the engine and finally to the exhaust header/ mixing elbow.

On many engines, depending on the depth below water line of the engine, the resistance of leakage past the raw water pump, the engine and other parts, even if the anti-siphon failed, it might not be enough water pressure to actually flood the engine.

I say this based on the fact the PO of my boat sailed around the world and never closed the raw water valve. I imagine there were many times when the vent on my anti-siphon was below water (while sailing my boat generates a very high stern wave that covers the vent outlet. All of this and the engine did not flood (note the exhaust exit at the hull was also submerged).


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## Capt Len

Quote plugged vented loop a red herring. The vented loop is designed to deal with the specific circumstance of the engine being shut down while the exhaust outlet is under water. WRONG WRONG Also,,, 'it might not be enough water pressure to actually flood the engine.' Don't count on it. Just happens a bit slower.


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## Capt Len

With so many understanding so little it's a wonder this flooding scenario does't happen more often . The right stuff is available. It shouldn't take a rebuild to benefit from it.


----------



## casey1999

JonEisberg said:


> I only made that mistake once  If the engine does start, something's gotta give, in my case it simply blew the hose off one of the elbow fittings somewhere in the system... No real harm done, but I imagine it could have been worse...
> 
> I've used a Marelon seacock from Forespar...
> 
> I can't imagine capping my fuel vent is ever gonna create a problem, it's probably not an absolutely airtight seal anyway, the primary purpose is to keep water, and hopefully the worst of the winter moisture here out of the tank... I built my fuel tank myself using West System epoxy, it's pretty overbuilt, hard for me to visualize it ever being burst due a change in atmospheric pressure... It survived being capped during Hurricane Sandy, after all, the the barometer dropped more than a little bit that night, I seem to recall...


Jon,
Where was the pic taken? Looks like one house has a lot of pv panels. Do you have pic when water level went down?
Nice...


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## IStream

Capt Len said:


> Quote plugged vented loop a red herring. The vented loop is designed to deal with the specific circumstance of the engine being shut down while the exhaust outlet is under water. WRONG WRONG Also,,, 'it might not be enough water pressure to actually flood the engine.' Don't count on it. Just happens a bit slower.


Please enlighten us, captain.


----------



## Capt Len

I,,Just to make it simple,,, Water runs down hill,,,, If the hose is connected to the WL and the end is lower i.e. the mixer, water will dump into the exhaust. Maybe if the water pump is pretty tight it will trickle. IF the hose goes above the waterline before it goes down ,,no matter If the looped hose gets air in it the SYPHON ing stops . If the thru hull is shut the flow stops. IF the muffler drains to bilge when engine stopped it can't fill up to flood the engine. Did I miss anything??


----------



## UnionPacific

Capt Len said:


> I,,Just to make it simple,,, Water runs down hill,,,, If the hose is connected to the WL and the end is lower i.e. the mixer, water will dump into the exhaust. Maybe if the water pump is pretty tight it will trickle. IF the hose goes above the waterline before it goes down ,,no matter If the looped hose gets air in it the SYPHON ing stops . If the thru hull is shut the flow stops. IF the muffler drains to bilge when engine stopped it can't fill up to flood the engine. Did I miss anything??


yes, you do not understand siphoning and small diameter hoses.


> IF the hose goes above the waterline before it goes down ,,no matter If the looped hose gets air in it the SYPHON ing stops


It will not stop until the vacuum of the water in the downward side is less then the weight of the water in the upward side.
Siphoning does not work by pressure, but by vacuum.

(vacuum is a form of pressure, or a lack thereof, please do not get distracted on this tangent, I hope you get the point, air breaks the siphon, as does the end of the hose going above the waterline at the end, but only at the end, not the middle.


----------



## IStream

casey1999 said:


> I agree with what you have said, however I believe the vent loop also provides protection against siphoning from the engines raw water inlet, passing the raw water pump and to the engine and finally to the exhaust header/ mixing elbow.
> 
> On many engines, depending on the depth below water line of the engine, the resistance of leakage past the raw water pump, the engine and other parts, even if the anti-siphon failed, it might not be enough water pressure to actually flood the engine.


Here's the reasoning behind my statement. The engine raw water inlet is, by design and necessity, always below the waterline. The exhaust outlet is above the waterline except in the exceptional (but not impossible) case of a large following wave, extreme heel angles, etc. When the outlet is above the waterline, it can't draw water backwards into the engine due to the air gap and it can't support a siphon outward from the raw water inlet (i.e. the normal raw water direction of flow) because it's higher than the raw water inlet, regardless of the presence or absence of high loop, vented or not.

Now consider the case where the exhaust outlet is under water due to exceptional circumstances. You still can't get a siphon to pull water from the inlet and out the exhaust (i.e. the normal raw water direction of flow) because the relative heights of the inlet and outlet haven't changed, the exhaust is still higher.

That leaves the case of reverse flow through the engine when the exhaust is underwater. If you've got a standing wave behind the boat that's covering the exhaust outlet, you're effectively connecting a higher water column at the exhaust to a lower water column at the inlet. If you don't have a loop above the (highest) waterline, you will get spontaneous flow without any vacuum in the system at all because you're effectively just connecting a higher reservoir to a lower one with a pipe. In this case, a vent is useless because there's no vacuum to break. If you do have a loop above the waterline, you need a vacuum to pull the water through the uphill leg of the loop before it heads back downhill, establishing a siphon. Once it's flowing, it's the difference in overall head pressure that sustains the siphon but only as long as the vacuum high in the loop can be maintained. This is the circumstance that the vented loop prevents by allowing air into the water column to relieve the vacuum.

So let's say you've got a loop with a faulty vented loop:

1. If the engine is running, it's actively pumping water against the reverse flow, both with the raw water pump and with exhaust gases, so you're safe.

2. If the engine isn't running and the raw water pump happens to block the flow backwards through the engine (by design or by accident), you're safe.

3. If the engine isn't running and the raw water pump doesn't completely occlude flow but there's not enough transient reverse flow to get the water all the way up the loop, you're safe.

4. If you've got case 3 and a siphon gets started but the exhaust is briefly unsubmerged, the siphon will break and you may be safe depending on how much water flowed while it was established.

The reason I cited the engine shutdown as a dangerous time is because the engine is actively pumping water uphill through the exhaust plumbing. When shut down, that water will rapidly reverse direction and its momentum can take it up through the loop to establish a siphon in the absence of a functional vent in the loop.


----------



## MedSailor

IStream said:


> Here's the reasoning behind my statement. The engine raw water inlet is, by design and necessity, always below the waterline. The exhaust outlet is above the waterline except in the exceptional (but not impossible) case of a large...
> 
> NAUTICAT 40 WITH A SAUNA


See above. I fixed it for you.

The rest of your treatise was great and relevant to 95% of the sailboating community that has their engines (and exhaust mixing elbows) above the waterline.

If you're in the lucky 5% (me) that have their engine below the waterline you don't need a following sea. You always have hydrostatic pressure trying to climb into your boat, by way of the raw water intake, up to the elbow (below the waterline remember?) and into the engine's innards.

It's not that it came in through the exhaust through hull (because it didn't ) its that it came in through the raw water INTAKE and went up and inti the exhaust by way of the mixing elbow WHICH IS BELOW THE WATERLINE.

When i started the engine with the plugged siphon vent it filled the system (primed the pump) and as you describe, the flow was started and continued in the same direction.

Instead of siphonibg out the exhaust through hull it chose the lower airspace which was my engine' cylinders.


----------



## Capt Len

quote from up yes, you do not understand siphoning and small diameter hoses. Gee I'm sorry I didn't realize what were dealing with here. Apparently it's all about sucking and blowing.


----------



## casey1999

Capt Len said:


> Quote plugged vented loop a red herring. The vented loop is designed to deal with the specific circumstance of the engine being shut down while the exhaust outlet is under water. WRONG WRONG Also,,, 'it might not be enough water pressure to actually flood the engine.' Don't count on it. Just happens a bit slower.


If my raw water pump seals well, 1psig may not be enough for leakage past it. However, another boat may have an installation deeper in the hull that provides 2psig, and that might be enough pressure to leak past the pump. Remember, a siphon occurs when a fluid at a higher pressure reservoir flows to a fluid reservoir at a lower pressure through an air tight and full conduit. As long as the conduit connecting the two reservoirs does not rise higher than about 33 feet at sea level.


----------



## UnionPacific

MedSailor said:


> See above. I fixed it for you.
> 
> The rest of your treatise was great and relevant to 95% of the sailboating community that has their engines (and exhaust mixing elbows) above the waterline.
> 
> If you're in the lucky 5% (me) that have their engine below the waterline you don't need a following sea. You always have hydrostatic pressure trying to climb into your boat, by way of the raw water intake, up to the elbow (below the waterline remember?) and into the engine's innards.
> 
> It's not that it came in through the exhaust through hull (because it didn't ) its that it came in through the raw water INTAKE and went up and inti the exhaust by way of the mixing elbow WHICH IS BELOW THE WATERLINE.
> 
> When i started the engine with the plugged siphon vent it filled the system (primed the pump) and as you describe, the flow was started and continued in the same direction.
> 
> Instead of siphonibg out the exhaust through hull it chose the lower airspace which was my engine' cylinders.


Easy fix.... even for someone with a sauna.


----------



## IStream

MedSailor said:


> See above. I fixed it for you.
> 
> The rest of your treatise was great and relevant to 95% of the sailboating community that has their engines (and exhaust mixing elbows) above the waterline.
> 
> If you're in the lucky 5% (me) that have their engine below the waterline you don't need a following sea. You always have hydrostatic pressure trying to climb into your boat, by way of the raw water intake, up to the elbow (below the waterline remember?) and into the engine's innards.
> 
> It's not that it came in through the exhaust through hull (because it didn't ) its that it came in through the raw water INTAKE and went up and inti the exhaust by way of the mixing elbow WHICH IS BELOW THE WATERLINE.
> 
> When i started the engine with the plugged siphon vent it filled the system (primed the pump) and as you describe, the flow was started and continued in the same direction.
> 
> Instead of siphonibg out the exhaust through hull it chose the lower airspace which was my engine' cylinders.


Med, look at the diagram in your post #282. The loop that rises above the waterline that's between your raw water intake and your mixing elbow prevents spontaneous flow when you open the seacock. If this loop was missing or was installed entirely below the waterline or somehow sagged below the waterline, your scenario would apply.

EDIT: I should also mention that if the vent is blocked, that loop could possibly hold water in the downhill vertical leg when the seacock is closed and then start a siphon when opened, which is consistent with your scenario. However, it would depend on the diameter of the hose. If it's a narrow diameter, this is more likely. If it's a wide hose, the weight of the water can be sufficient to allow it to flow down while allowing air in past the water, draining the leg and preventing a siphon the next time you open the seacock.


----------



## JonEisberg

casey1999 said:


> Jon,
> Where was the pic taken? Looks like one house has a lot of pv panels. Do you have pic when water level went down?
> Nice...


I live at the northern end of Barnegat Bay in NJ. We were in the NE quadrant when Sandy made landfall about 30 miles to the south, pretty much Ground Zero on the Jersey Shore. The highest concentration of devastation from the storm was within about a 5 mile radius of where I live...

Normally, I'm quite protected in big storms, the winter northeasters have historically been the worst along our coast here. With the roughly N-S orientation of the Jersey coast - at least the northern section - hurricanes have always struck a glancing blow... Whouda thunk a hurricane would ever make it to the latitude of NJ, and then make a hard left turn to hit the coast head on?  Sandy was, indeed, another "Perfect Storm"...

We've always been fairly invulnerable to a big storm surge, as the only way water can rise in the bay is from inlets at a considerable distance from me to the north, and south... Until Sandy, that is, when this breach of the barrier island occurred just about 2 miles away at Mantoloking, and allowing Barnegat Bay to see an unprecedented rise in the water level, roughly 4 feet higher than anyone had ever seen before...










This pic was taken the morning prior to the storm, which came thru about midnight... The water level at that time was about average, perhaps 6" lower than normal...










At the height of the surge, the water level was just about level with the tops of my neighbor's pilings across the lagoon... The wave action was incredible, it had in effect become completely open to the bay... When the water began rising above my floor, it occurred to me it might have been a good idea to have run a safety line tethered from the house out to the boat, in the event I had to "step up to my liferaft"  My biggest fear at that point had become a fire, the spookiest thing about that storm was that the sky off to the west was turning red, the low cloud ceiling being lit up with the numerous house fires that were being started... Totally surreal, had a real End of the World aspect to it, and it actually took me quite awhile to figure out what was going on... 

The white house across the way was originally built in 1949. It sits fairly low compared to many in the neighborhood, and yet has NEVER had water inside, even during the Great Storm of '62, probably the most powerful ever to hit the Jersey Shore... During Sandy, he got 34" of water in his living room...

I was definitely one of the lucky ones... Many of the homes in my neighborhood are now gone, all of the ones exposed to the bay completely destroyed. Even now, 2 years later, it's still gonna be a LONG time before things around here get back to normal...


----------



## MedSailor

The flags the day before the storm are a nice touch.


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## IStream

MedSailor said:


> The flags the day before the storm are a nice touch.


Better than after the storm... ;o)


----------



## casey1999

JonEisberg said:


> QUOTE]
> 
> Jon,
> I remember this pic just after Sandy. Always curious as to was the sand returned to its pre-Sandy condition or did those that lost property due to erosion lose the property forever?


----------



## casey1999

Interesting reading:
Marine Exhaust Systems

A well-designed exhaust system will Keep water from drowning an engine

The following article has been printed in several journals. I got this copy from Professional BoatBuilder Magazine. If your a Marine Mechanic and are not getting this magazine, you are missing some of the most up to date information available to the marine repair business.
Note: the above link opens in a new window.

============================================

Most of today's pleasure boats with inboard engines have wet exhausts: Water is injected into the system to cool exhaust gases, and then passed overboard through the exhaust outlet.
A wet exhaust has several advantages over a dry exhaust. The injected water lowers the temperature of the exhaust gases from as high as 2,000oF to below 212oF, cooling the gases sufficiently to allow the use of flexible hose after the water injection point. Flexible hose is easier to run than pipe, is not subject to corrosion or stress cracking; and absorbs the movement and vibration of a flexibly mounted engine. The water-cooled exhaust needs no insulation, and does not pose a fire or burn hazard to either the boat or crew. What's more, as the temperature of the exhaust gases falls, the volume of the gases declines proportionately, reducing exhaust noise. At the same time, the minimal exhaust back pressure generally needed to lift the exhaust water out of the boat also muffles the sound.

This is a significant list of benefits. On the downside, ever since water has been used to cool exhausts, there have regularly been cases of engines flooding with water from the exhaust system. Boats have sunk on their moorings from water first filling the engine, and then trickling out of engine apertures until the boat goes down. It's simply unacceptable that such things still happen, because the principles of a safe cooling and exhaust installation have been understood for decades.

How Engines Flood
On a boat with a water-cooled exhaust, the water in which the boat floats--called raw water--cools both the engine and the exhaust. In the most common arrangement, a raw-water pump draws water from the engine intake seacock and through a strainer. It then pumps this water through a heat exchanger-and perhaps an oil cooler or two, into the exhaust pipe via a water-injection nipple or mixing elbow. The water flows with the exhaust gases into a water-lift box, also called a water silencer. The discharge pipe of the water-lift box is set slightly above the bottom of the box. The water level rises until it blocks the discharge pipe, at which point the trapped exhaust gases build up sufficient pressure to lift the water up the exhaust pipe and out of the boat.

Problems occur because on almost all sailboats, and on many powerboats, the engine is installed below the waterline. Even if it's not below the waterline when the boat is at rest, the engine may well end up there when the boat heels, or when it is heavily loaded. This latter case can be particularly dangerous: because the boat's designer or engine installer may not have adequately planned for it. If the engine is or any time below the waterline, any cooling circuit that allows raw water into the exhaust has the potential to set up a siphon action. Water may siphon in from the water injection side; or, if the exhaust outlet is below the waterline, from the exhaust outlet side.

Even if the exhaust outlet is normally above the waterline, water may siphon into a heeled or well-laden boat, as mentioned previously. It may he driven up the exhaust pipe by following seas; or, in an otherwise calm anchorage, be forced up the pipe by repeated wakes from passing boats or water-skiers. This phenomenon is known as water hammer. I heard of an interesting case of this recently in which waves, deflected off a seawall, repeatedly hit the stern of a boat, eventually sinking it. If a boat has more than one engine, but is backed down under only one, water can be driven up the exhaust of the second engine. Similarly, on a boat with a generator, backing down can force water into the generator exhaust.

Finally, repeated cranking of a difficult to-start engine can pump excessive water into an exhaust. With every cranking attempt, the raw-water pump will move more water into the exhaust. In a typical installation, this water will not be pumped out until the engine fires by which time, there may be enough water in the exhaust to flood the engine.

Whatever the mechanism, once the exhaust fills with water, the water will back up the exhaust pipe into the exhaust manifold and the engine. If the engine has more than one cylinder, one or more of the exhaust valves is likely to be open. The water will run through this valve into the cylinder below, and will then dribble down the sides of the pistons and rings into the crankcase. Given enough time, the crankcase will fill until the water begins to trickle out of one aperture or another, perhaps the dipstick tube, into the boat.
Recognizing these potential problems, the American Boat and Yacht Council (ABYC) standard P-l, Installation of Exhaust Systems for Propulsion and Auxiliary Engines, says that a wet-exhaust system must be designed to keep water out of all engines, in all situations, including when the boat is backing down or not in use. The question is, what is the best way to comply with these requirements?

The Supply Side
Let's look first at the supply side. Almost all raw-water pumps are the rubber-impeller type. In theory, when these pumps are at rest, they act as a check valve, allowing no water to pass through the pump. That's why some engine installers rely on the pump to prevent a siphon from developing. But as we'll see, this is fool hardy in the extreme. It's not uncommon for a rubber impeller pump to lose a vane or two from the impeller, but still move enough water through the engine to keep it operating at normal temperatures, particularly in colder; northern waters. The operator may well be unaware that there is a problem. But when the engine stops, if the missing vanes of the impeller should come to rest between the inlet and outlet ports on the pump, there will no longer be any siphon protection.

The only sure way to protect against siphoning is to install a siphon break, also called a vented loop, between the last heat exchanger or oil cooler on the cooling circuit, and the point at which water injects into the exhaust. A siphon break is a very simple device set at the top of a loop of hose. An installer takes the hose as high under the deck as possible, to a point that will always be several inches above the waterline, at any angle of heel and at maximum boat loads, and plumbs in the siphon break at this point. The device consists of nothing more than an upside-down U-shaped pipe with a small valve on the top of the U. The valve is usually a rubber flap. When the water pump is operating, water pressure closes the flap: when the engine is shut down, the weight of water in the hoses sucks the flap open, allowing the water column on either side of the U to drain down, thus breaking the siphon.

A siphon break is a good idea, even on boats where the raw-water injection point is above the waterline, making the development of a siphon theoretically impossible. As noted previously, these "level state;' calculations often do not hold at sea. The boat may be heavily laden and down a few inches on its waterline. There may be times when the angle of heel puts the injection point below the waterline, a particularly likely scenario on twin-engine boats, where the engines are offset from the centerline. Or, there may be occasions when substantial waves surging past the boat create sufficient hydrostatic pressure to set up an intermittent siphon, eventually flooding the engine.

Siphon breaks will be effective as long as they are working. Unfortunately, it's not uncommon for them to foul up. What happens is this: Every time the engine shuts down, a few drops of water are left around the valve seat. The residual heat from the engine evaporates this water, leaving a grain or two of salt. In time the valve becomes clogged. It may then either fail to close, allowing salt water to spray over the engine when the motor is running; or it may refuse to open when the engine is shut down, and not break the siphon. Sometimes a salt-encrusted valve will do both! These valves require regular maintenance: Periodically remove the rubber flap and rinse it in fresh warm water.

A device that may require less attention than a siphon break is a vacuum breaker from the Scot Division of the Ardox Corporation (Fort Lauderdale, Florida). This consists of a plastic poppet valve held against a Delrin seat by an external stainless steel spring. Since the valve is normally closed, neither fluid nor vapor in the system can get past the seat. Salt crystals do not have a chance to form, so there is less likelihood of problems developing than with a traditional vented loop. When the engine stops, the weight of the water in the lines sucks the valve open. admitting air to the system, and breaking any tendency to form a siphon. These valves work well, with just one potential problem: Opening the valve against the spring requires a certain minimum suction pressure. For this suction to develop, the valve must be installed 2' above the waterline at all angles of heel. On many boats, this height may be difficult to achieve.


----------



## zedboy

Just have to ask: can anyone find a production inboard which is above the W/L?


----------



## Faster

zedboy said:


> Just have to ask: can anyone find a production inboard which is above the W/L?


Many INJECTION ELBOWS themselves are above normal DWL, although even those can become below waterline when heeled or in a seaway. Depends on how tall the engine is vs the actual hull draft of the design. In many cases the elbow might be intentionally 'raised'.

The location of that RW injection elbow vs the WL is the critical aspect..


----------



## rgp

MedSailor,
Mark Hanger, Marks marine service, has been doing work for me and my father for years in Anacortes, he is a fantastic mechanic. I would perform acts that are illegal is some states to keep on his client list. My wife isn't very happy about this, but she understands.


----------



## albrazzi

mitiempo said:


> What I don't understand is why an anti-siphon tube from an exhaust elbow exits through the hull side. I have seen several installations where it exits in the cockpit (over a drain) where it spits a bit with the engine running - a quick and easy visual tells you that the cooling water is flowing and that the opening is clear of debris. No matter how high it is installed on many boats it can be underwater at times.


My CS30 (Volvo) has a line from the thermostat to the port rail up high that lets that small stream out and I'm told its the way its done on these Motors.
I don't see why it wouldn't work very well (and it does apparently) if there is a danger it would be shutting off the motor with this opening under water and it not being able to let air in. An unlikely scenario the motor would be running and then shut off with a dipped gunnel. This point is considerably higher than the cockpit floor. I'm curious how is your CS setup? Also I'm assuming the protection for water intrusion through the wet exhaust hose on my Boat is just the loop, its about as high as it can go behind the helm seatback so again as long as I don't shut the motor off under an extreme following sea while the hose is full(er) then starting a siphon is unlikely. I have seen closely spaced following seas in protected waters come up to the transom on a previous boat. And it was a very high freeboard Columbia 8.3 hourglass stern shape. It was so long ago I cant remember if the motor was running or not and frankly didn't give this water intrusion issue any thought, but I am now. OK I will stop rambling...


----------



## Capt Len

Are you fresh water cooled? I suspect the thermostat is not involved and the line does let air into the raw water side when you shut down. The up loop at the end of the exhaust pipe is hardly ever fully adequate for a big following wave and water surging forth and back will 'hydroram' into the low part of the system. (fancy word for 'filling the engine with salt water') This is not likely with Med's BIG loop out the side but any system with considerable longitudinal hose is at risk .Results vary because boats do. Further note ...water up the butt is not likely syphoning, it's inertia .


----------



## Faster

Med.. any news/progress??


----------



## MedSailor

Faster said:


> Med.. any news/progress??


Nothing. Tomorrow I'll probe and see if the surceyor has submitted his findings. That'll tell this wheel in which direction he should start squeaking...


----------



## Minnewaska

At the least, it doesn't seem to be adding up to an obvious cause. If the surveyor can't prove it was caused by an excluded event, only assumes, you may have that to argue in your favor. Good luck.


----------



## albrazzi

Capt Len said:


> Are you fresh water cooled? I suspect the thermostat is not involved and the line does let air into the raw water side when you shut down. The up loop at the end of the exhaust pipe is hardly ever fully adequate for a big following wave and water surging forth and back will 'hydroram' into the low part of the system. (fancy word for 'filling the engine with salt water') This is not likely with Med's BIG loop out the side but any system with considerable longitudinal hose is at risk .Results vary because boats do. Further note ...water up the butt is not likely syphoning, it's inertia .


No I'm RWC if it were FWC this vent would only loose cooling water, not good..
As for the wet exhaust I understand its not a siphon (at first anyway) and though unlikely, in the right conditions, and shut down full, it could turn into one that's why some fit a shut-off to the exhaust line. but then maybe this line is never full enough to cause a siphon but with enough gulps from a following sea will work back through the water lock.
But that's not what happened to Meds boat so I will get out of the way.


----------



## bfloyd4445

good article and explains what I was trying to explain earlier about flapper anti siphon valves. The spring loaded types open with a few inches of H2O, many at 1psig or less.
The simplest solution and most economical would be to go back to using the infallible old methods of sailing in which no fossil fuel engines are used...Kinda like my new hero Rimas...you all are familiar with Rimas ad his $500 J26 right? Now there is a real MARINER


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## albrazzi

Good point but this ship has sailed (read the pun if you want) I read your point on no motors as I finish a 1 hour call to my help desk just to reset a password. I'm not giving my motorized sailing vessel up any more than I'm going to give up my laptop.


----------



## MedSailor

albrazzi said:


> Good point but this ship has sailed (read the pun if you want) I read your point on no motors as I finish a 1 hour call to my help desk just to reset a password. I'm not giving my motorized sailing vessel up any more than I'm going to give up my laptop.


I actually looked at replacing my motor with electric, and I may actually look into it a little bit more. With a 6KW westerbeke diesel genset I'm in a different category than those who bemoan the limited range of batteries alone.

Medsailor


----------



## Capt Len

Yeh, I can see how a 6kw assist would be a big help getting past Point Hudson on a good ebb.


----------



## casey1999

Based on this thread, I took a close look at my wet exhaust system. Found my air vent siphon break was clear with no blockage in the air tube.

However I did find my Vetus LP 50 water lift muffler was connected backwards and has been like this for about 10 years and 30,000 miles. Never had water in the engine. The problem is that if I install the LP50 the right way, the vertical distance from the engine exhaust outlet (mixing elbow) to the LP50 inlet gets reduced, and now it is only about 1-inch (too small but the water lift is already resting on the hull of the boat). So I am a little hesitant to swap the connections on the LP-50 seeing it is working.

I did find this Vetus catalog, and while some may not like their products, it has the best explanation of wet exhaust systems I have seen.

Boat Systems 2013 by Vetus

and on Page 72 there is a calculation as to how big (volume wise) your water lift muffler should be to contain all the water backflow- I have never seen this equation before.


----------



## Capt Len

IF you need to raise the outlet .... A couple of 45 el's and short nipples in Blackplumbing fittings can do it without any welding .a neater job can be a few cuts almost all the way thru a nipple and bend/weld.The last one accepts the thread on mixer. I've made many like this .and they last well enough and give plenty of warning of potential failure.(which is more than most of the crap on the market) I'd bet that a muffler/waterlock on backward would cause more than designed resistance to flow and more water left in system at shut down. The normal outlet takes water off of the bottom of the unit leaving a layer to act as sound/shock absorber. The inlet sets up some circulation for same .Apparently it will work either way.Just sayin.


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## bfloyd4445

albrazzi said:


> Good point but this ship has sailed (read the pun if you want) I read your point on no motors as I finish a 1 hour call to my help desk just to reset a password. I'm not giving my motorized sailing vessel up any more than I'm going to give up my laptop.


yeah and I'll bet you won't give up your Lattee or your cell phone either....chuckle....

I'm with you on this issue but I still have great respect for those that have stripped themselves of all this candy going naked onto the oceans bosom confident in their ability to survive the wrath of Poseidon


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## casey1999

Capt Len said:


> IF you need to raise the outlet .... A couple of 45 el's and short nipples in Blackplumbing fittings can do it without any welding .a neater job can be a few cuts almost all the way thru a nipple and bend/weld.The last one accepts the thread on mixer. I've made many like this .and they last well enough and give plenty of warning of potential failure.(which is more than most of the crap on the market) I'd bet that a muffler/waterlock on backward would cause more than designed resistance to flow and more water left in system at shut down. The normal outlet takes water off of the bottom of the unit leaving a layer to act as sound/shock absorber. The inlet sets up some circulation for same .Apparently it will work either way.Just sayin.


My engine/mixer elbow looks like the attached pic. I am afraid that if I modify the mixer elbow to have an extension that takes it to a higher elevation the back wash from this new "riser" could back flow into my engine. I think you are right that it would be better to turn the water lift muffler around and connect as designed. I never could get full rpm on my engine- maybe hooked up backwards the water lift creates too much exhaust back pressure- like you say.


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## bfloyd4445

casey1999 said:


> My engine/mixer elbow looks like the attached pic. I am afraid that if I modify the mixer elbow to have an extension that takes it to a higher elevation the back wash from this new "riser" could back flow into my engine. I think you are right that it would be better to turn the water lift muffler around and connect as designed. I never could get full rpm on my engine- maybe hooked up backwards the water lift creates too much exhaust back pressure- like you say.


they are designed for the flow to be in one direction and if you have it installed backwards you will increase back pressure on engine. Why was it ever installed backwards in the first place?


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## christian.hess

backpressure isnt the devil!

some engines need specific backpressure...id be very very interested to know just how much more backpressure he is seing

I bet just because its backwards he wont be so off the chatrts...

its obvious after so many miles that having the waterlift backwards isnt catastrophic in any sense...(however never attaining mx rpms is a clear sign that installation isnt correct)

ps I love vetus engines btw...waterlifts too

they are for some reason not to popular here in the west but I cruised with a 3 cylinder beast and became a great fan of this engine...fwiw


----------



## Capt Len

Pretty fancy (and expensive) unit on the end of that manifold.If you think height is a problem ,I've built several that weld directly on the end plate or bolt on with a flange.. elbow and nipple up, elbow and nipple out ,and SS nipple down to mixer fitting of choice(threaded) Wrapped in glass tape it looks almost professional. I admit to scrap yard foraging so your costs could vary. Option B ..weld up a custom SS can that fits the space and does the job. I've made some pretty funny looking trapezoids (rhomboids??) to fit close to rubber cushions and hull.


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## bfloyd4445

Capt Len said:


> Pretty fancy (and expensive) unit on the end of that manifold.If you think height is a problem ,I've built several that weld directly on the end plate or bolt on with a flange.. elbow and nipple up, elbow and nipple out ,and SS nipple down to mixer fitting of choice(threaded) Wrapped in glass tape it looks almost professional. I admit to scrap yard foraging so your costs could vary. Option B ..weld up a custom SS can that fits the space and does the job. I've made some pretty funny looking trapezoids to fit close to rubber cushions and hull.


Hey, post some pictures of them, they sound interesting.


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## casey1999

bfloyd4445 said:


> they are designed for the flow to be in one direction and if you have it installed backwards you will increase back pressure on engine. Why was it ever installed backwards in the first place?


I am not sure why it was installed backwards. Probably installer not paying attention to details. The Vetus water lift lp-50 inlet and outlet look about the same. Imprinted on the water lift is "in" and "out", but someone could easily miss seeing that. The inlet is slightly higher in elevation than the outlet, and with my set up I am nearly horizontal from the mixer elbow to the water lift muffler, and cannot raise the engine nor lower the water lift. The yanmar spec is too have 10 inch of drop to the water lift- no way I can get that unless I put a hole in the boat.


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## casey1999

Capt Len said:


> Pretty fancy (and expensive) unit on the end of that manifold.If you think height is a problem ,I've built several that weld directly on the end plate or bolt on with a flange.. elbow and nipple up, elbow and nipple out ,and SS nipple down to mixer fitting of choice(threaded) Wrapped in glass tape it looks almost professional. I admit to scrap yard foraging so your costs could vary. Option B ..weld up a custom SS can that fits the space and does the job. I've made some pretty funny looking trapezoids to fit close to rubber cushions and hull.


Ok here is a pic that I had. Not too clear but the corrugated hose on the right that makes a 180 deg bend is the exhaust hose leaving the Yanmar mixing elbow and the entering the Vetus lp-50 (you can see about 1/2 of the LP-50 in the upper right side of pic. A little hard to see but the corrugated hose has almost no drop to the water lift. Note this is a V-drive yanmar thus you see the prop shaft coupling in the lower middle of pic. You can see the LP-50 is backwards as if you look close, you can see the drain plug of the LP-50. That drain plug is below the outlet of the LP-50, per the drawing of the LP-50.


----------



## bfloyd4445

casey1999 said:


> I am not sure why it was installed backwards. Probably installer not paying attention to details. The Vetus water lift lp-50 inlet and outlet look about the same. Imprinted on the water lift is "in" and "out", but someone could easily miss seeing that. The inlet is slightly higher in elevation than the outlet, and with my set up I am nearly horizontal from the mixer elbow to the water lift muffler, and cannot raise the engine nor lower the water lift. The yanmar spec is too have 10 inch of drop to the water lift- no way I can get that unless I put a hole in the boat.


Well its a good thing you found the mistake. Maybe now you will get full rpm


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## casey1999

christian.hess said:


> backpressure isnt the devil!
> 
> some engines need specific backpressure...id be very very interested to know just how much more backpressure he is seing
> 
> I bet just because its backwards he wont be so off the chatrts...
> 
> its obvious after so many miles that having the waterlift backwards isnt catastrophic in any sense...(however never attaining mx rpms is a clear sign that installation isnt correct)
> 
> ps I love vetus engines btw...waterlifts too
> 
> they are for some reason not to popular here in the west but I cruised with a 3 cylinder beast and became a great fan of this engine...fwiw


I am not sure how much back pressure I am seeing. I will be pull the boat in a few weeks and doing quite a bit of work. At that time I will probably flop the water lift around. In any case the max rpm of my Yanmar 3gmd is about 3600 rpm per specifications, if I remember right. My tach never goes over 3100 rpm (even when in neutral and full throttle). The tach may be off or maybe too much back pressure. In any case I can motor at 7 knots and about 2200 rpm so I got all the power I need (maybe over proped). But it would be good to run the motor as it should be run.


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## bfloyd4445

casey1999 said:


> Ok here is a pic that I had. Not too clear but the corrugated hose on the right that makes a 180 deg bend is the exhaust hose leaving the Yanmar mixing elbow and the entering the Vetus lp-50 (you can see about 1/2 of the LP-50 in the upper right side of pic. A little hard to see but the corrugated hose has almost no drop to the water lift. Note this is a V-drive yanmar thus you see the prop shaft coupling in the lower middle of pic. You can see the LP-50 is backwards as if you look close, you can see the drain plug of the LP-50. That drain plug is below the outlet of the LP-50, per the drawing of the LP-50.


thanks for the pix. Not sure I understand whats going on there but it looks fine to me cept for the zip ties. I used to clip off the tails then turn the point down to make a nice clean looking installation but after slicing myself on the sharp point left from cutting now I leave the tails on and point them down. Not as neat an installation but certainly safer for the next repair.


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## casey1999

MedSailor said:


> I actually looked at replacing my motor with electric, and I may actually look into it a little bit more. With a 6KW westerbeke diesel genset I'm in a different category than those who bemoan the limited range of batteries alone.
> 
> Medsailor


May not work for you, but looking through the Vetus catalog (page 176) they offer a hydraulic powered propeller drive. Never have seen that before. The hydraulic motor would still work while submerged (like accidental flooding) unlike an electric motor.
Boat Systems 2013 by Vetus

And folks who fear engines mounted below the water line could mount the diesel hydraulic power unit right on deck- keeping an eye on the diesel as you steer.


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## mitiempo

Hydraulic drive is not new - the Nicholson 35 had one over 30 years ago. Apparently problematic and there are power losses.


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## Jaramaz

mitiempo said:


> Hydraulic drive is not new - the Nicholson 35 had one over 30 years ago. Apparently problematic and there are power losses.


Yes, there is another thread on Vagabond 42 (I think it was) where one owner had gone rather far to remove the hydraulics. Hydraulics is expensive, introduces new potential problems and suck some power. 
In that thread it was said that in particular when revving up there is a irritaing latency before the response, which in harbours may cause some problems.

There is one upside: engine can be positioned where ever.

/J


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## Minnewaska

casey1999 said:


> Ok here is a pic that I had. Not too clear but the corrugated hose on the right that makes a 180 deg bend......


A mechanic once told me that you needed to add one inch of exhaust diameter for every (can't remember if it was 90 degs or 180 degs) of bend in the path from the elbow to the thru hull to accommodate the increased backpressure.

He would bemoan sailboats in general, but some production boats in particular, for having way too small an exhaust for the contortion it takes to get from the motor to the hull.


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## christian.hess

^^^bingo minnewaska, some production installations leave much to desire...


the key to having any engine perform at spec and happily is first to give it enough air i order to produce power, more importantly flow of air and fuel

so that means for a diesel correct diesel flow
correct airbox size and volume or better said enough engine room air and correct(not too hot temps inside said engine bay, this could be monitored or rigged to blowers to start at certain temps with a switch)
and most importantly in my book a free enough run to the water outlet or exhaust at correct temps...

too cold bad, cooled to early in the run bad, too much restriction very bad i.e just as bad as too much backpressure(they are not the same)

too hot to melt fibreglass or paint BAD

etc...

free airflow in slightly less free out as a general rule.

anywhoo


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## ianjoub

bfloyd4445 said:


> thanks for the pix. Not sure I understand whats going on there but it looks fine to me cept for the zip ties. I used to clip off the tails then turn the point down to make a nice clean looking installation but after slicing myself on the sharp point left from cutting now I leave the tails on and point them down. Not as neat an installation but certainly safer for the next repair.


One needs to cut the ends square and flush with the lock tab portion to avoid nasty sharp edges ... or don't cut them.


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## casey1999

Minnewaska said:


> A mechanic once told me that you needed to add one inch of exhaust diameter for every (can't remember if it was 90 degs or 180 degs) of bend in the path from the elbow to the thru hull to accommodate the increased backpressure.
> 
> He would bemoan sailboats in general, but some production boats in particular, for having way too small an exhaust for the contortion it takes to get from the motor to the hull.


I would not agree with this. In order to fit the goose neck to prevent water coming up the exhaust at the outlet (as most engine makers recommend) requires two 90 deg and a 180 degree bends and at a minimum that would add 2 inches to the exhaust diameter. Now remember by adding 2 inches diameter, the volume of the exhaust system has increased significantly. Now you will need a significantly larger water lift to accommodate the increased volume of water. And if the water lift is not big enough- flooded engine.


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## casey1999

ianjoub said:


> One needs to cut the ends square and flush with the lock tab portion to avoid nasty sharp edges ... or don't cut them.


I have cut them and then file down to prevent cuts. I left mine un-cut as I can take a small flat head screw driver and slide it into the zip tie racket and un-do the tie for re-use. Sorry about all the zip tie, just hold things a little tighter when things start vibrating. Probably don't really need them, but they are not hurting anything either.


----------



## bfloyd4445

Minnewaska said:


> A mechanic once told me that you needed to add one inch of exhaust diameter for every (can't remember if it was 90 degs or 180 degs) of bend in the path from the elbow to the thru hull to accommodate the increased backpressure.
> 
> He would bemoan sailboats in general, but some production boats in particular, for having way too small an exhaust for the contortion it takes to get from the motor to the hull.


180 degrees of bend in order to get the same flow as a straight run you would have to double the size of duct or pipe


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## casey1999

bfloyd4445 said:


> 180 degrees of bend in order to get the same flow as a straight run you would have to double the size of duct or pipe


True, but then do you make the entire exhaust the up size or take losses with all the reducers? In reality. A few bends do not really hurt anything.


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## Minnewaska

As I said, the upsize rule of thumb wasn't mine (I couldn't even recall it specifically), I'm just repeating a mechanics advice. He's got a hard core reputation, so I'm inclined to believe him.

As I think about it, the size of the outlet at the elbow must anticipate some bends in the exhaust pipe. Almost no boat goes direct. Perhaps the science is to know when you've exceeded the cumulative radius that was already accommodated.


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## bfloyd4445

casey1999 said:


> True, but then do you make the entire exhaust the up size or take losses with all the reducers? In reality. A few bends do not really hurt anything.


To do the job correctly first you must know the recommended back pressure the engine needs for optimal operation then you calculate the size tubing necessary taking the bends into consideration. 
Yes they do make a big difference unless the pipe size is adjusted upwards to compensate for the bends. When the engineer designed the system he took the bends into consideration and sized the tubing accordingly. Only a fool would assume that one can drive as fast on a curve track as a straight one. This isn't rocket science. Using a car for an example: On a two mile straight track you can get going at a very high speed but try to attain the same high speed on a two mile track with several 90 degree curves and you will wreck or will have to slow down to negotiate the curves. Your exhaust system obeys the same laws of physics.


----------



## Capt Len

Unless you're running a larger 6 cyl the very convenient dia of three inch is adequate for exhaust outlets. Iron pipe fitting are cheap and threaded or weldable. Stainless pipe is easily found for muffler assembly and transom fittings .RV shut off valves are cheaper than an oil change.The expensive part is the 3" rubber hose and clamps to connect it all. If that's a 20 hp popper in the bilge, downsize, as long as the engine can still breath OK,ok? Err on the big side. Just my humble opinion! (if I need a 90 I weld two 45's)


----------



## Minnewaska

Capt Len said:


> Unless you're running a larger 6 cyl the very convenient dia of three inch is adequate for exhaust outlets.....


I have a 4 cyl, 100hp turbo diesel. I've not measured, but I know it isn't 3". From eyeball, it's 5". It takes two 45 deg turns, just to exit the engine compartment and run beneath the aft cabin floor. I must turn a bit more to go through that box that accumulates water (can't recall it's name) and then out the aft quarter. My mech says the motor would actually be happier, if it was slightly larger still.


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## christian.hess

minnewaska I would tend to agree with you here, the waterlift is the box you are reffering too or it can also be a muffler in bigger engines that is attached right before the exit

thing is for you to REALLY know you have to measure flows and that can only be done by measuring pressure, exhaust flow, and water flow and compare to what your engine specs for these.

sometimes you cant even find this info for certain engines some you can

I know in the motorcycle world you can attain all sorts of flow charts for different exhaust systems ariflow etc but this isnt the same

however in essence you can only try out a bigger exhaust "hole"

on my islander 36 with a gas engine(they for the most part runner smaller exits say for an atomic 4 or palmer p60) the exit is 3 inches nice bronze outlet.

on my older diesel yanmar 2gm it was 2.5, again bronze

on the vetus 3 cylinder diesel I cruised on it was 3 inches

so 3 or there abouts is indeed a great midway ground however on a turbo up on 3 digit horsepower I think your mechanic is right on...

you could benefit a bit if only to reduce exaust temps a bit and ease flow

remember the faster exhaust gasses exit the cooler and better performing your engine will be overall

you can go overboard on this but in essence it will eliminate carbon deposits that can or could combust(this mostly applies to gas fuel engines obviously however excessive heat can and will ignite) while in the exhaust system if enough heat is present.

so free flow out is the motto here

peace

if you do modify make sure you scientifically report on temps in the exhaust system before and after as well as flow, and engine temps, specifically exhaust manifold area

id bet youll be pleasantly surprised


----------



## Capt Len

"I have a 4 cyl, 100hp turbo diesel". You're right Minnewaska I neglected to mention the extra big lungs of a super charged engine.


----------



## bfloyd4445

christian.hess said:


> minnewaska I would tend to agree with you here, the waterlift is the box you are reffering too or it can also be a muffler in bigger engines that is attached right before the exit
> 
> thing is for you to REALLY know you have to measure flows and that can only be done by measuring pressure, exhaust flow, and water flow and compare to what your engine specs for these.
> 
> sometimes you cant even find this info for certain engines some you can
> 
> I know in the motorcycle world you can attain all sorts of flow charts for different exhaust systems ariflow etc but this isnt the same
> 
> however in essence you can only try out a bigger exhaust "hole"
> 
> on my islander 36 with a gas engine(they for the most part runner smaller exits say for an atomic 4 or palmer p60) the exit is 3 inches nice bronze outlet.
> 
> on my older diesel yanmar 2gm it was 2.5, again bronze
> 
> on the vetus 3 cylinder diesel I cruised on it was 3 inches
> 
> so 3 or there abouts is indeed a great midway ground however on a turbo up on 3 digit horsepower I think your mechanic is right on...
> 
> you could benefit a bit if only to reduce exaust temps a bit and ease flow
> 
> remember the faster exhaust gasses exit the cooler and better performing your engine will be overall
> 
> you can go overboard on this but in essence it will eliminate carbon deposits that can or could combust(this mostly applies to gas fuel engines obviously however excessive heat can and will ignite) while in the exhaust system if enough heat is present.
> 
> so free flow out is the motto here
> 
> peace
> 
> if you do modify make sure you scientifically report on temps in the exhaust system before and after as well as flow, and engine temps, specifically exhaust manifold area
> 
> id bet youll be pleasantly surprised


good advice. Keep in mind its better to error on using a larger size than needed than smaller. If you choose to small a size and then to fix the problem you will have to do the whole job over with larger tubing. If your first attempt results in to large a diameter its simple to add a restriction anywhere in the system for the correct back pressure. Ih this case you can sleep at night knowing you have designed in a large safety factor.


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## christian.hess

EGGGZAAAAAAAAAAAAACTLY

in the motorcycle world they are called baffled tips, most ALL offroad mufflers come stock with an epa restrictor which is a coned shaped mesh screen that not only muffles sound but flow

if you want to race plop that puppy out and you get much more sound and flow, having said that I was a 95% baffle user as the sound felt much nicer to me and more respectable

I did do temp recordings and the engine went down only a little in temp without the baffle HOWEVER THE MUFFLER itself was a solid 20f degrees or so COOLER without the baffle meaning its obvious that the baffle restricted and kept hot air inside more than the free flowing baffle less setup

same concept on a boat

really


----------



## MedSailor

Maine_Sail,


























Can I just replace my overboard discharge "pisser" anti siphon break with the one you linked to?










Do I need any special modifications? Looks like I may have to shorten the hoses a little... Checking the valve on what you linked to (yearly? Quarterly?) seems imminently preferable to what I have now. While I can check what I have now with every engine startup, I WOULD HAVE TO check it with every startup to avoid catastrophe. For the genset in particular this seems like a royal pain.

MedSailor


----------



## Capt Len

While you wait for Mainsail I'll throw my two bits in. Your hose are somewhat bigger than for the unit shown so would be a big restriction or need bigger unit. (VL 10 ??) My experience with that type of flapper valve is if it doesn't seal perfectly when under pressure (engine running) it will dribble If flapper sticks when you shut down you've got syphoning and that sucks as you know. A3/8 tube on your pisser type would be fine if you check for wasps. There's not an easy way to daily check the flapper type. Either they work or not.


----------



## casey1999

For the vacuum break to work, follow these instructions:
http://www.scotpumpmarine.com/sn/SN-890-913.pdf

A certain amount of vac needs to build before the valve will release (equal to 2 feet of head- see diagram)- thus the need to raise the vacuum break higher than your existing air vent vacuum break- then again looking at your hull pic on post #370, maybe your ok in most conditions. Instructions say 2 feet above water- remember that would be heeled, water line or water line caused by wave action ect.


----------



## bfloyd4445

Capt Len said:


> While you wait for Mainsail I'll throw my two bits in. Your hose are somewhat bigger than for the unit shown so would be a big restriction or need bigger unit. (VL 10 ??) My experience with that type of flapper valve is if it doesn't seal perfectly when under pressure (engine running) it will dribble If flapper sticks when you shut down you've got syphoning and that sucks as you know. A3/8 tube on your pisser type would be fine if you check for wasps. There's not an easy way to daily check the flapper type. Either they work or not.


you can keep the wasps out with a piece of screen


----------



## Capt Len

The suspense is palatable. Whassup in the shop?


----------



## MedSailor

Capt Len said:


> The suspense is palatable. Whassup in the shop?


The thing to remember about reality TV is that it actually is real to the folks you're watching.... yes palpable suspense is right!

Safeco has asked for rebuild estimates and now I'm waiting.... waiting.....

Is Medsailor going to tear up the waves in his motorsailor with a cloud of diesel exhaust behind him? Or am I going to go engine less, with a sauna, diesel genset and an electric winch?

Stay tuned! But hopefully for not much longer! I dunno about ypu but this add break is getting long...

Medsailor


----------



## Capt Len

Med ,if you like those vents Main suggested. you could extend the top of the existing U's up to whatever is convenient with small line (doesn't hold much water) and place the plastic thinga mabobbi high to ensure suck back opens the vent on shutdown Wouldn't need any replacing or cutting. Plug existing pissing ports'


----------



## Minnewaska

MedSailor said:


> The thing to remember about reality TV is that it actually is real to the folks you're watching....


This is the part of the episode where you get really drunk and in a big hissy fight with someone. Anyone really. Fills the space. Or better yet, if you can find some women in the episode, get them drunk and in a fight with each other. Now back to the main story line. 

Getting rebuild estimates sound encouraging. I suspect a negotiated settlement offer. It may not be wise to jump on the first offer. I also bet they will want you to sign a document that says they don't really have to pay you. I've never understood that doc and refused to sign it myself. Maybe its to protect them from having to pay everyone.

Also, prepare yourself for this. If they pay, there are pretty good odds they will drop your coverage.


----------



## weinie




----------



## MedSailor

Minnewaska said:


> This is the part of the episode where you get really drunk and in a big hissy fight with someone. Anyone really. Fills the space. Or better yet, if you can find some women in the episode, get them drunk and in a fight with each other. Now back to the main story line.
> 
> Getting rebuild estimates sound encouraging. I suspect a negotiated settlement offer. It may not be wise to jump on the first offer. I also bet they will want you to sign a document that says they don't really have to pay you. I've never understood that doc and refused to sign it myself. Maybe its to protect them from having to pay everyone.
> 
> Also, prepare yourself for this. If they pay, there are pretty good odds they will drop your coverage.


Negotiations would be interesting. I wonder what grounds they'll negotiate on? When your car gets smashed they don't say "I'll repair the left fender, but not the hood." I expected negotiations for depreciation, (engine is old but low hours) but a rebuild seems harder to negotiate the details of.

As for dropping coverage, I appreciate the advice on that. I'd be a little miffed if they did, because these are no-fault events, but on the other hand I know that insurance is all about numbers. My first claim date was 24hrs after I bound coverage. My second claim, right after the first. On paper I probably look like Med$ailor. Will they look past the costs and, for some reason, decide to stick by me? This is my first year with SafeCo, so it'd be hard for me to imagine they would. If they do though, I'll be really impressed and I'll recommend them to everyone I know.

I have a local broker that I really like, but for various reasons we decided to change brokers/insurance when we bought the new boat. I'd be happy to go back to the old broker if they drop me, just so long as this doesn't make me uninsurable. THAT would tick me off....

MedSailor


----------



## guitarguy56

Medsailer... I have SafeCo insurance out of the Bremerton office... They seem to be fine folks there and hope I never have to make a claim but I have heard good things from them which is why I chose them. 

I am keeping tabs on your ordeal and hope they honor your claim amicably.


----------



## bfloyd4445

MedSailor said:


> The thing to remember about reality TV is that it actually is real to the folks you're watching.... yes palpable suspense is right!
> 
> Safeco has asked for rebuild estimates and now I'm waiting.... waiting.....
> 
> Is Medsailor going to tear up the waves in his motorsailor with a cloud of diesel exhaust behind him? Or am I going to go engine less, with a sauna, diesel genset and an electric winch?
> 
> Stay tuned! But hopefully for not much longer! I dunno about ypu but this add break is getting long...
> 
> Medsailor


I'll bet he will notice a more responsive throttle


----------



## TQA

Adding my 2 pennies worth to the siphon debate. I dislike the valve in the loop that is hidden away in the engine room. I do like the simplicity of extending the vacuum break with a small bore hose that takes it up to the helm. Blow down the hose every time you use the engine to check that the siphon vacuum valve is clear. 

The marine engineers out here are kept busy with engine replacements/rebuilds all as a result of blocked anti siphon valves.

On the subject of owners contribution to betterment my background is automotive. I had to arbitrate in a number of cases where older engines were being overhauled or replaced. The first offer by the insurance company would be in the order of a 1/3 contribution with the insured coughing up the other 2/3.

It was a rare day when they moved past 45% with an older engine. 

I will be interested to see what they offer. 

I recently spent time in the USA touring in a RV and met some people who suffered major issues and was surprised at how rapidly their claims were settled IN SOME CASES. In others the fight seemed to be ongoing for many months.


----------



## MedSailor

TQA said:


> Adding my 2 pennies worth to the siphon debate. I dislike the valve in the loop that is hidden away in the engine room. I do like the simplicity of extending the vacuum break with a small bore hose that takes it up to the helm. Blow down the hose every time you use the engine to check that the siphon vacuum valve is clear.
> 
> The marine engineers out here are kept busy with engine replacements/rebuilds all as a result of blocked anti siphon valves.
> 
> On the subject of owners contribution to betterment my background is automotive. I had to arbitrate in a number of cases where older engines were being overhauled or replaced. The first offer by the insurance company would be in the order of a 1/3 contribution with the insured coughing up the other 2/3.
> 
> It was a rare day when they moved past 45% with an older engine.
> 
> I will be interested to see what they offer.
> 
> I recently spent time in the USA touring in a RV and met some people who suffered major issues and was surprised at how rapidly their claims were settled IN SOME CASES. In others the fight seemed to be ongoing for many months.


TQA, thanks for your thoughts. There is a simplicity to keeping the "Pisser" and I can indulge my new neuroses of checking the water flow ever 5 minutes. A small screen on the vent seems like a good idea...

What's the rationale behind only paying for part of a rebuild? Never had someone offer to only pay part of body damage for example. I can understand paying part of a new engine, because it's an "upgrade" to what I have. Repairing mine is really just putting back together what's broken. I suppose a recently rebuilt engine is better than a used one that's not rebuilt, but my engine was just fine before all this happened....

What's the rationale behind splitting the cost?

MedSailor

PS Just got another rebuild quote from a local shop that said "It won't take me long at all to rebuild this." $15k.  Crazy!


----------



## Skipper Jer

"PS Just got another rebuild quote from a local shop that said "It won't take me long at all to rebuild this." $15k. Crazy! "

I see the pirates have expanded to rebuild shops. 

Is rebuilding a diesel similar to rebuilding a gasoline engine? Hone the cylinder walls, new rings, bearings, lap the valves, maybe shave the head. How can rebuilding an engine cost almost as much as a new one?


----------



## MedSailor

guitarguy56 said:


> Medsailer... I have SafeCo insurance out of the Bremerton office... They seem to be fine folks there and hope I never have to make a claim but I have heard good things from them which is why I chose them.
> 
> I am keeping tabs on your ordeal and hope they honor your claim amicably.


I'm staying optimistic. They seem reasonable and my last claim wasn't straightforward and they ponied up and paid the whole thing. I am grateful for that.

With 30,000+ unique views on this thread, you're not the only one watching how this turns out.  I can't play that card though, that wouldn't be right. We'll just see what happens and everyone can make their own decisions and judgements about it.

MedSailor


----------



## Minnewaska

MedSailor said:


> Negotiations would be interesting. I wonder what grounds they'll negotiate on?


Not necessarily clear grounds. They may start with the premise that they are not obligated to pay at all, but offer something low for good will.



> Will they look past the costs and, for some reason, decide to stick by me? This is my first year with SafeCo


You'll be the first to know, I'm sorry to say. At the least, you will be paying an increased premium for having a loss. I think there are no exceptions to that. I had a weather related (ie no fault) dock rash loss and my premiums jumped 10-20% for several years. I know..... what is insurance for, if they just charge you back for using it. Frustrating.

Why did you ditch the local broker you like? I'm really curious.


----------



## MedSailor

Minnewaska said:


> Why did you ditch the local broker you like? I'm really curious.


Strange circumstances, but fortuitous in the end. Got a minute? 

It started with me being a bit late in getting quotes. I know from prior insurance dealings that you can't bind coverage on something you don't own, so I wasn't quoting the boat I didn't own until the last minute. In hindsight, I should have gotten quotes on the new-boat-to-be much sooner. I was also running around trying to keep the sale of the Formosa together as it nearly fell apart on the last day. (long story)

The sale and purchase closed on the same day and suddenly I owned a really expensive boat that was not insured. Not a good idea.... I called Anchor Marine/Red Shield, our local folks, and NBOA/Safeco. I had liked a guy from NBOA I met at the boat show, and they were one of the few places that could quote insurance on an old Formosa. So I had dealt with them in the past and liked their broker.

A day or two go by and I'm getting really edgy about owning a boat that's not insured yet. Finally it comes down to needing to bind coverage NOW because they are about to take down the masts. I had visions of cranes falling on the boat, masts being dropped etc.

When it came down to it, the quotes were close to identical, (NBOA/Safeco about 10% cheaper) and Anchor marine's computer system went down and they told me they couldn't finalize my quote or bind coverage until the next day, if it got fixed.

I went with NBOA/Safeco because I NEEDED coverage on that day, and they seemed acceptable. If I had waited to go with Red Shield/Anchor Marine I wouldn't have been insured on the day the yard monkeys damaged my boat. It wouldn't have done me much good to have been insured with my favorite local outfit the day AFTER the damage occurred....

Strange coincidences and timings of events. Perhaps that should be a lesson that the gods on Olympus Island want this to turn out well for us in the end... Trying to stay positive.

MedSailor


----------



## Minnewaska

Interesting story. Makes sense that you took what you needed at the time. 

Still, I prefer having a local resource to help with situations like you're in now. Obviously, you did the right thing at the time.


----------



## casey1999

Capt Len said:


> Med ,if you like those vents Main suggested. you could extend the top of the existing U's up to whatever is convenient with small line (doesn't hold much water) and place the plastic thinga mabobbi high to ensure suck back opens the vent on shutdown Wouldn't need any replacing or cutting. Plug existing pissing ports'


Should probably check with "Scot Company" prior to modifying their product. If the new "small line" is small, it will clog with salt and debris and defeat the purpose and allow siphoning. In any case, water will siphon until air hits the U tube- that could siphon enough water to damage your engine depending on the length of the "small line". A "big line" will not clog as easily but will allow more water to siphon into the engine works.


----------



## MedSailor

casey1999 said:


> Should probably check with "Scot Company" prior to modifying their product. If the new "small line" is small, it will clog with salt and debris and defeat the purpose and allow siphoning. In any case, water will siphon until air hits the U tube- that could siphon enough water to damage your engine depending on the length of the "small line". A "big line" will not clog as easily but will allow more water to siphon into the engine works.


I think I'm going to just stick my motor on TOP of the pilothouse and fit a saildrive with a REALLY long leg. That way I don't have to mess with siphons...

MedSailor


----------



## bfloyd4445

[pertaining to insurance
I've used Boast US without issues in the past. I insured my Wooldridge Alaskan before it was even built as soon as a hull number was allocated. The insurance wasn't effective till I took delivery and confirmed that with boatsus but it was smooth and the policy was in place. They also gave me a quote on my 1977 Down East trawler before it was mine and when I signed the papers and faxed them the survey and bill of sale the boat was insured.


----------



## bfloyd4445

MedSailor said:


> I think I'm going to just stick my motor on TOP of the pilothouse and fit a saildrive with a REALLY long leg. That way I don't have to mess with siphons...
> 
> MedSailor


that's funny, I know the feeling


----------



## Capt Len

You could put the fuel tank on top of that so you don't have to worry about pumps.Along with all the suckin an blown some common sense is valuable.


----------



## casey1999

MedSailor said:


> I think I'm going to just stick my motor on TOP of the pilothouse and fit a saildrive with a REALLY long leg. That way I don't have to mess with siphons...
> 
> MedSailor


Better run that design by S&S, now you are changing the stability of your yacht.


----------



## UnionPacific

MedSailor said:


> I think I'm going to just stick my motor on TOP of the pilothouse and fit a saildrive with a REALLY long leg. That way I don't have to mess with siphons...
> 
> MedSailor


They invented this thing a few years back, called an outboard.
They now make diesels, again.


----------



## TQA

MedSailor said:


> TQA, thanks for your thoughts. There is a simplicity to keeping the "Pisser" and I can indulge my new neuroses of checking the water flow ever 5 minutes. A small screen on the vent seems like a good idea...
> 
> What's the rationale behind only paying for part of a rebuild? Never had someone offer to only pay part of body damage for example. I can understand paying part of a new engine, because it's an "upgrade" to what I have. Repairing mine is really just putting back together what's broken. I suppose a recently rebuilt engine is better than a used one that's not rebuilt, but my engine was just fine before all this happened....
> 
> What's the rationale behind splitting the cost?
> 
> MedSailor
> 
> PS Just got another rebuild quote from a local shop that said "It won't take me long at all to rebuild this." $15k.  Crazy!


The rational was termed 'betterment'. It was applied to body panels as well as engine and driveline items.

Say the life of the vehicle was 10 years/100,000 miles. Your vehicle was 7 years old with 70,000 miles on the clock. as a result of the accident it needed a new engine and a new front wing.

The ins co would only pay for 30% of each.

They could get quite creative too on working out repair v replace costs to their benefit.


----------



## aa3jy

MedSailor said:


> Again, the yard did no engine work (though they did replace a cutlass bearing) and I can't imagine how this could be the yard's fault, though on the other hand, I gave them a boat with a working engine and I got back an engine that is seized.
> MedSailor


Been there done that..dealing with a boat yard and a engine re-builder pointing fingers at one another..took 6 months to get a similar issue resolved.. Thankfully our boat insurance came through for us and played mediator and resolved it... If your thinking about getting a lawyer involved...don't..that will only add more (frustration)time and $$ wasted...


----------



## bfloyd4445

TQA said:


> The rational was termed 'betterment'. It was applied to body panels as well as engine and driveline items.
> 
> Say the life of the vehicle was 10 years/100,000 miles. Your vehicle was 7 years old with 70,000 miles on the clock. as a result of the accident it needed a new engine and a new front wing.
> 
> The ins co would only pay for 30% of each.
> 
> They could get quite creative too on working out repair v replace costs to their benefit.


dose anyone get a policy that dosent state replacement cost for a vehicle in like condition? Every policy I have ever had stated something to that effect but I have had insurance companies try to weasel out but they always ended up [paying pretty much what I demanded


----------



## casey1999

So Med, did they ever tell you what caused the engine flooding? Seeing we can now land a probe on a comet, I hope we can figure out how the engine flooded.


----------



## aeventyr60

MedSailor said:


> I think I'm going to just stick my motor on TOP of the pilothouse and fit a saildrive with a REALLY long leg. That way I don't have to mess with siphons...
> 
> MedSailor


That kind of drive is called a "longtail' here.


----------



## MedSailor

casey1999 said:


> So Med, did they ever tell you what caused the engine flooding? Seeing we can now land a probe on a comet, I hope we can figure out how the engine flooded.


We're close to being able to break radio silence. Hopefully tomorrow. Really don't want to wait through another weekend....


----------



## Skipper Jer

MedSailor said:


> I think I'm going to just stick my motor on TOP of the pilothouse and fit a saildrive with a REALLY long leg. That way I don't have to mess with siphons...
> 
> MedSailor


Do it, then bolt a hydraulic pump on the output shaft, pipe it to a hydraulic motor connected to the prop shaft. Maybe you will get enough money to make that happen.


----------



## Minnewaska

Come to think of it, exactly why do our diesels mix the raw cooling water and exhaust in the first place? There are some motors that don't. Clearly, doing so creates the risk we've been discussing. What's the reward that makes it worthwhile?


----------



## casey1999

Minnewaska said:


> Come to think of it, exactly why do our diesels mix the raw cooling water and exhaust in the first place? There are some motors that don't. Clearly, doing so creates the risk we've been discussing. What's the reward that makes it worthwhile?


Marine Exhaust Systems

A well-designed exhaust system will Keep water from drowning an engine

The following article has been printed in several journals. I got this copy from Professional BoatBuilder Magazine. If your a Marine Mechanic and are not getting this magazine, you are missing some of the most up to date information available to the marine repair business.
Note: the above link opens in a new window.

============================================

Most of today's pleasure boats with inboard engines have wet exhausts: Water is injected into the system to cool exhaust gases, and then passed overboard through the exhaust outlet.
A wet exhaust has several advantages over a dry exhaust. The injected water lowers the temperature of the exhaust gases from as high as 2,000oF to below 212oF, cooling the gases sufficiently to allow the use of flexible hose after the water injection point. Flexible hose is easier to run than pipe, is not subject to corrosion or stress cracking; and absorbs the movement and vibration of a flexibly mounted engine. The water-cooled exhaust needs no insulation, and does not pose a fire or burn hazard to either the boat or crew. What's more, as the temperature of the exhaust gases falls, the volume of the gases declines proportionately, reducing exhaust noise. At the same time, the minimal exhaust back pressure generally needed to lift the exhaust water out of the boat also muffles the sound.

This is a significant list of benefits. On the downside, ever since water has been used to cool exhausts, there have regularly been cases of engines flooding with water from the exhaust system. Boats have sunk on their moorings from water first filling the engine, and then trickling out of engine apertures until the boat goes down. It's simply unacceptable that such things still happen, because the principles of a safe cooling and exhaust installation have been understood for decades.

How Engines Flood
On a boat with a water-cooled exhaust, the water in which the boat floats--called raw water--cools both the engine and the exhaust. In the most common arrangement, a raw-water pump draws water from the engine intake seacock and through a strainer. It then pumps this water through a heat exchanger-and perhaps an oil cooler or two, into the exhaust pipe via a water-injection nipple or mixing elbow. The water flows with the exhaust gases into a water-lift box, also called a water silencer. The discharge pipe of the water-lift box is set slightly above the bottom of the box. The water level rises until it blocks the discharge pipe, at which point the trapped exhaust gases build up sufficient pressure to lift the water up the exhaust pipe and out of the boat.

Problems occur because on almost all sailboats, and on many powerboats, the engine is installed below the waterline. Even if it's not below the waterline when the boat is at rest, the engine may well end up there when the boat heels, or when it is heavily loaded. This latter case can be particularly dangerous: because the boat's designer or engine installer may not have adequately planned for it. If the engine is or any time below the waterline, any cooling circuit that allows raw water into the exhaust has the potential to set up a siphon action. Water may siphon in from the water injection side; or, if the exhaust outlet is below the waterline, from the exhaust outlet side.

Even if the exhaust outlet is normally above the waterline, water may siphon into a heeled or well-laden boat, as mentioned previously. It may he driven up the exhaust pipe by following seas; or, in an otherwise calm anchorage, be forced up the pipe by repeated wakes from passing boats or water-skiers. This phenomenon is known as water hammer. I heard of an interesting case of this recently in which waves, deflected off a seawall, repeatedly hit the stern of a boat, eventually sinking it. If a boat has more than one engine, but is backed down under only one, water can be driven up the exhaust of the second engine. Similarly, on a boat with a generator, backing down can force water into the generator exhaust.

Finally, repeated cranking of a difficult to-start engine can pump excessive water into an exhaust. With every cranking attempt, the raw-water pump will move more water into the exhaust. In a typical installation, this water will not be pumped out until the engine fires by which time, there may be enough water in the exhaust to flood the engine.

Whatever the mechanism, once the exhaust fills with water, the water will back up the exhaust pipe into the exhaust manifold and the engine. If the engine has more than one cylinder, one or more of the exhaust valves is likely to be open. The water will run through this valve into the cylinder below, and will then dribble down the sides of the pistons and rings into the crankcase. Given enough time, the crankcase will fill until the water begins to trickle out of one aperture or another, perhaps the dipstick tube, into the boat.
Recognizing these potential problems, the American Boat and Yacht Council (ABYC) standard P-l, Installation of Exhaust Systems for Propulsion and Auxiliary Engines, says that a wet-exhaust system must be designed to keep water out of all engines, in all situations, including when the boat is backing down or not in use. The question is, what is the best way to comply with these requirements?

The Supply Side
Let's look first at the supply side. Almost all raw-water pumps are the rubber-impeller type. In theory, when these pumps are at rest, they act as a check valve, allowing no water to pass through the pump. That's why some engine installers rely on the pump to prevent a siphon from developing. But as we'll see, this is fool hardy in the extreme. It's not uncommon for a rubber impeller pump to lose a vane or two from the impeller, but still move enough water through the engine to keep it operating at normal temperatures, particularly in colder; northern waters. The operator may well be unaware that there is a problem. But when the engine stops, if the missing vanes of the impeller should come to rest between the inlet and outlet ports on the pump, there will no longer be any siphon protection.

The only sure way to protect against siphoning is to install a siphon break, also called a vented loop, between the last heat exchanger or oil cooler on the cooling circuit, and the point at which water injects into the exhaust. A siphon break is a very simple device set at the top of a loop of hose. An installer takes the hose as high under the deck as possible, to a point that will always be several inches above the waterline, at any angle of heel and at maximum boat loads, and plumbs in the siphon break at this point. The device consists of nothing more than an upside-down U-shaped pipe with a small valve on the top of the U. The valve is usually a rubber flap. When the water pump is operating, water pressure closes the flap: when the engine is shut down, the weight of water in the hoses sucks the flap open, allowing the water column on either side of the U to drain down, thus breaking the siphon.

A siphon break is a good idea, even on boats where the raw-water injection point is above the waterline, making the development of a siphon theoretically impossible. As noted previously, these "level state;' calculations often do not hold at sea. The boat may be heavily laden and down a few inches on its waterline. There may be times when the angle of heel puts the injection point below the waterline, a particularly likely scenario on twin-engine boats, where the engines are offset from the centerline. Or, there may be occasions when substantial waves surging past the boat create sufficient hydrostatic pressure to set up an intermittent siphon, eventually flooding the engine.

Siphon breaks will be effective as long as they are working. Unfortunately, it's not uncommon for them to foul up. What happens is this: Every time the engine shuts down, a few drops of water are left around the valve seat. The residual heat from the engine evaporates this water, leaving a grain or two of salt. In time the valve becomes clogged. It may then either fail to close, allowing salt water to spray over the engine when the motor is running; or it may refuse to open when the engine is shut down, and not break the siphon. Sometimes a salt-encrusted valve will do both! These valves require regular maintenance: Periodically remove the rubber flap and rinse it in fresh warm water.

A device that may require less attention than a siphon break is a vacuum breaker from the Scot Division of the Ardox Corporation (Fort Lauderdale, Florida). This consists of a plastic poppet valve held against a Delrin seat by an external stainless steel spring. Since the valve is normally closed, neither fluid nor vapor in the system can get past the seat. Salt crystals do not have a chance to form, so there is less likelihood of problems developing than with a traditional vented loop. When the engine stops, the weight of the water in the lines sucks the valve open. admitting air to the system, and breaking any tendency to form a siphon. These valves work well, with just one potential problem: Opening the valve against the spring requires a certain minimum suction pressure. For this suction to develop, the valve must be installed 2' above the waterline at all angles of heel. On many boats, this height may be difficult to achieve.


----------



## Minnewaska

Cool exhaust, flexible piping. Of course.


----------



## casey1999

Minnewaska said:


> Cool exhaust, flexible piping. Of course.


When I first started working on marine diesels, I thought the same thing- why the heck do they stick a water hose in the exhaust manifold exit? I guess it is a necessary evil.


----------



## Minnewaska

Funny. I've never really given it a second thought before. Just the way it was.


----------



## Faster

Ever cruised on a boat with a Jimmy 3-71 and dry exhaust? without earplugs??


----------



## MedSailor

Union Pacific (I think it was him) posted the following picture on this thread of an alternative type of exhaust mixing elbow.










While this would do nothing to prevent siphon issues, it should hopefully help with exhaust elbow failures. Seems like a good idea, except there is going to be a longer run of non-cooled pipe. I see the pipe is insulated, but it still seems like it could be a fire-hazard. Anyone have any more detail on elbows like this?

MedSailor


----------



## Faster

That's essentially the setup we have now.. a heat wrapped solid/hot section with the injection point some distance downstream.

Our engine is directly under the companionway and we've certainly never been concerned about any kind of fire hazard - but you do want to make sure that nothing flammable or meltable ends up draped across an unprotected section. Doesn't seem to cause any inordinate amount of heat either.

Our old one eventually became porous, and we had a sister part made out of SS a couple of seasons back, so far so good.


----------



## bfloyd4445

aeventyr60 said:


> That kind of drive is called a "longtail' here.


Is there such a thing?


----------



## Minnewaska

Our turbocharger is wrapped in heat shield. That exhaust can't be any more of a fire hazard.


----------



## Capt Len

More of a hazard is the failing fixture. Porous welds or fatigue fractures can cause severe drowsiness leading to death.(this was not uncommon on the old dry stack fish boats) Well made black iron eventually fails but give good warning.Problem with binding it with tape is no inspection .so it should be on the maintenance list. I usually make it shorter than those pics show and weld one or two 1/2" nipples at an angle into the last SS nipple so that the squirting water enters just before the rubber hose that connects to the aqua lift .That gives enough cooling to the end of the unit .


----------



## aeventyr60

bfloyd4445 said:


> Is there such a thing? I knew a girl once nick named long tail because of her never ending endurance


Different propulsion systems. The endurance model is called a "long time".


----------



## Capt Len

As long as she didn't label you 'short shaft'


----------



## bfloyd4445

Capt Len said:


> More of a hazard is the failing fixture. Porous welds or fatigue fractures can cause severe drowsiness leading to death.(this was not uncommon on the old dry stack fish boats) Well made black iron eventually fails but give good warning.Problem with binding it with tape is no inspection .so it should be on the maintenance list. I usually make it shorter than those pics show and weld one or two 1/2" nipples at an angle into the last SS nipple so that the squirting water enters just before the rubber hose that connects to the aqua lift .That gives enough cooling to the end of the unit .


I would think that you would have installed a co monitor to warn of the hazard. The problem isn't so much low oxygen as the fact that co is attracted to hemoglobin in your blood at least 30 times stronger than oxygen and remains attached to your hemoglobin. In a high co environment as ones blood is less and less able to bind with oxygen you get sleepy and you pass out often never to awaken. co is odorless, tasteless and has no other symptoms except tiredness so its extremely dangerous. Co is admitted by combustion, catalytic processes. All boat cabins should have a co monitor and in my opinion if people sleep in the boat an o2 sensor as well.


----------



## Capt Len

People still ride their Otto cycles to their deaths, modern warning systems notwithstanding. The usual alarm back in the day was stepping out on deck for a breath of fresh air on a long night run and next thing you know, that's your stern light over there fading. Knowing the technical aspects of bio chemistry is helpful at that point.


----------



## UnionPacific

casey1999 said:


> The injected water lowers the temperature of the exhaust gases from as high as 2,000oF to below 212oF,


This is where the writeup lost credibility with me.
If your diesel exhaust is blowing 2000F your engine is going to last about 30 seconds. The hottest exhaust at full throttle should not be more then 800-1000 on a non-turbo, and no more then 1250 on a turbo.
Where the water enters the exhaust will not be more then 600-900 degrees.
Moving on, I have invented a better system for cooling exhaust today.


----------



## UnionPacific

MedSailor said:


> Union Pacific (I think it was him) posted the following picture on this thread of an alternative type of exhaust mixing elbow.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> While this would do nothing to prevent siphon issues, it should hopefully help with exhaust elbow failures. Seems like a good idea, except there is going to be a longer run of non-cooled pipe. I see the pipe is insulated, but it still seems like it could be a fire-hazard. Anyone have any more detail on elbows like this?
> 
> MedSailor


yes, me. As I stated with the photo you want this above the waterline, then it will indeed prevent siphoning. Best option is custom made. Its simply bent stainless steel with manifold wrapping. Same material they use for fireplace gaskets. Cannot light on fire at less then like 2800 degrees. 
Should cost less then $250.


----------



## bfloyd4445

UnionPacific said:


> This is where the writeup lost credibility with me.
> If your diesel exhaust is blowing 2000F your engine is going to last about 30 seconds. The hottest exhaust at full throttle should not be more then 800-1000 on a non-turbo, and no more then 1250 on a turbo.
> Where the water enters the exhaust will not be more then 600-900 degrees.
> Moving on, I have invented a better system for cooling exhaust today.


I think the difference is that the temps you list are with engineering controls in place and higher temps are without. Engine systems we use are all engineered with controls to limit temperature excursions if they weren't they would destroy themselves in short order


----------



## weinie

UnionPacific said:


> yes, me. As I stated with the photo you want this above the waterline, then it will indeed prevent siphoning. Best option is custom made. Its simply bent stainless steel with manifold wrapping. Same material they use for fireplace gaskets. Cannot light on fire at less then like 2800 degrees.
> Should cost less then $250.


That looks like the standard exhaust on catalina 27 as well as a few other models i've seen.

Nonetheless, that exhaust STILL requires a vented loop before the hose is plumbed into that top nipple.


----------



## UnionPacific

weinie said:


> That looks like the standard exhaust on catalina 27 as well as a few other models i've seen.
> 
> Nonetheless, that exhaust STILL requires a vented loop before the hose is plumbed into that top nipple.


Negative. Only time that is needed is if the water injection point is below the waterline.


----------



## MedSailor

bfloyd4445 said:


> I would think that you would have installed a co monitor to warn of the hazard. The problem isn't so much low oxygen as the fact that co is attracted to hemoglobin in your blood at least 30 times stronger than oxygen and remains attached to your hemoglobin. In a high co environment as ones blood is less and less able to bind with oxygen you get sleepy and you pass out often never to awaken. co is odorless, tasteless and has no other symptoms except tiredness so its extremely dangerous. Co is admitted by combustion, catalytic processes. All boat cabins should have a co monitor and in my opinion if people sleep in the boat an o2 sensor as well.


SIDEBAR: not true! The first, and most consistent symptom of CO poisoning is headache. This won't wake you from sleep (hence the need for alarms) but ic you're paying attention headache will clue you in to the fact that you're getting CO poisoning before its too late to act.

People are too quick to dismiss headaches. They all have a cause. Common causes include dehydration, caffeine withdrawal, facial or neck muscle spasm (stress) and everything else....


----------



## weinie

UnionPacific said:


> Negative. Only time that is needed is if the water injection point is below the waterline.


Aren't the tops of most sailboat engines and their exhaust risers going to be quite near if not below the water line anyway, especially when excessively heeled ?


----------



## Minnewaska

weinie said:


> Aren't the tops of most sailboat engines and their exhaust risers going to be quite near if not below the water line anyway, especially when excessively heeled ?


Most, I'm not so sure. Really depends. Some yes, some no.


----------



## Capt Len

Many smaller sailboats would require an engine room cubby built on the deck where the cockpit used to be just to clear that apparatus and hoses . Vibrating that long SS pipe on the end of the manifold has got to ask for fatigue fractures. I'll take big dia ,compact, inexpensive ,easily available ,easily designed, easily welded/threaded. plumbing parts every time. As to the topic of applying water to the unit ,that depends!! I know where my water line is and can recognize suck and blow.


----------



## MedSailor

Great news! SafeCo is going to pay the claim!









I got the news that they're going to pay 100% of the investigation costs, the full rebuild costs and reinstall costs. Basically they're paying 100% of everything. They were even willing to let me choose a more expensive quote from the local shop (that I'm not going with).

Yay SafeCo!









Now I can FINALLY get back in the water and start enjoying my new boat!!!









Well, not yet.... It's going to take the rebuild shop 5 weeks to rebuild, plus shipping both ways to the shop, and reinstall time. Thrown in the holidays, and I hope to be sailing by spring. Still, I stretched the budget to buy this boat and right now isn't the best time for me to have a $25K unexpected expense. Hence, the insurance. Wow, it's really nice when something (insurance in this case) works as advertized. 

MedSailor


----------



## Minnewaska

Hey, congratulations!! Great news, Med.


----------



## Capt Len

That's good news Med. Does this mean you won't be going to 'Frisco?


----------



## Skipper Jer

Congrats! Bet your shoulders popped up a few inches when you got the news.


----------



## davidpm

Congratulations:

So what was the final official cause of the engine failure.

You have a deductible yes?
So you have to pay that anyway.

Probably seems like nothing considering the alternative.


----------



## tankersteve

Congrats, Med!

I have been casually following this thread and as a new boatowner, I am happy to hear your news. Let us know how the rebuild and install go.

Tankersteve


----------



## Minnewaska

davidpm said:


> .....So what was the final official cause of the engine failure.....


I'm interested as well. I have two guesses.

1. Design failure that was not picked up during survey, or they would have denied coverage, if it wasn't upgraded.

2. They can't say for sure, so they have no exclusion to use to deny coverage.

The big question is whether they will renew coverage for next year.


----------



## mitiempo

Minnewaska said:


> The big question is whether they will renew coverage for next year.


The bigger question is can it be prevented from happening again?


----------



## TQA

Good news indeed.


----------



## Capt Len

Did we eliminate the connection to the drip less fitting as a source of wet.?


----------



## guitarguy56

Medsailor... great news and indeed and as I figured they would honor your claim... they are a great insurance company and glad you are overwhelmed with joy at this time.


----------



## smackdaddy

Hey med, you may have already found this, but I came across a pretty exhaustive Nauticat refit thread over on CF:

Nauticat 52 Refit - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

Check it.

AND CONGRATS ON THE CLAIM!


----------



## MedSailor

Cause of the claim? Why I thought y'all would never ask. 

So, there's more than one answer to this. First, there's the answer to what actually happened, and then there are various shades of grey as far as what insurance has told me happened... or not.

Originally, after the autopsy, I was corresponding with the insurance surveyor regularly about the facts and details. His resposes started to become less verbose, more vague, and less frequent. The best I got in the end was that he was "leaning away" from the siphon as a cause and that it likely occured as a result of shipping.

Why the decrease in information? I asked a couple times for things to look out for to make sure this doesn't happen again. Nothing, except putting a drain in my water lift muffler would be a good idea.

Perhaps he was getting weary of my pestering. I've had that happen in medicine when an overly-zelous layperson with access to Google is continually trying to "help" me diagnose a patient. I'm aware of our reversal of roles here, and wouldn't be surprized if this was the case from his point of view.

Or is it in the insurance companies' best interest not to tell me everything for some reason? Are they going to play the internal finger pointing game and try and split the cost with another insurer somewhere? I don't know.

In the end they paid up, so either they found the case, and it's covered, and they're not sharing the specifics with me, or they are not certain of the cause and since it's not excluded, they have to pay me. One really nice thing is that they bundled this together with my recent claim so I don't have to pay my $2k deductable again. Yay SafeCo!

So, what REALLY happened to my engine? Opinions differ it seems between me and the surveyor, but he was also acting on some poor information initially. The yard, who removed the engine, told us that there was no anti-siphon loop in the raw water circuit at all. I found they were wrong. I also measured and found my exhaust mixing elbow IS below the waterline, by about 12 inches.

For some reason I wasn't able to impress my surveyor with the importance of the above paragraph. He kept getting stuck, it seemed, on the idea that the prurpose of that anti-siphon loop was only to keep water from coming back in through the exhaust. That's not it's purpose on my boat. It would be if my engine was above the waterline.... but....

My engine (and more to the point) the mixing elbow is below the waterline. (I mentioned that right?  ) If there is no operable way to break a siphon, then when you start the flow of water in through the intake, and it goes through the exchangers, and to the elbow, *it will keep flowing after shutdown.*

The siphon break "pisser" was working in florida, so no issues on shutdown there. It got plugged by a wasp and delivered to me. I ran it once, and upon shutdown, the siphon formed. Water came in the intake, around the impeller, through the exhangers, and continued to pour in the exhaust mixing elbow. With no exhaust gas to expel it, it filled and filled, until the system was full, as were my cylinders and oil pan.

MedSailor

P.S. If I don't unplug that hole, or take other corrective action, I'll ruin the new engine upon shutdown the first time I try it out. Thanks everybody for helping me find the real cause. I'd REALLY be hating life if this happened again as soon as it was fixed.


----------



## davidpm

So I plug this into my costs thread for posterity what do you figure the total bill will come to?


----------



## MedSailor

davidpm said:


> So I plug this into my costs thread for posterity what do you figure the total bill will come to?


$14K to un-do the damage done by the riggers.
$25K for engine investigation, removal, rebuild, and reinstall.

Sorry SafeCo. 

MedSailor


----------



## guitarguy56

MedSailor said:


> $14K to un-do the damage done by the riggers.
> $25K for engine investigation, removal, rebuild, and reinstall.
> 
> Sorry SafeCo.
> 
> MedSailor


Thanks a lot Medsailor... my SafeCo policy just went up $$$... literally.... my renewal was just this month! :hothead :laugher


----------



## jvlassak

I'm happy the insurance decided to cover the full amount - they seem to be a decent company to do business with. Excellent news for MedSailor.


----------



## bfloyd4445

fantastic! I have a homeowners policy by safco and the two claims I have had id fifty years were handled fast without problems and I got full payment for everything. Never thought of them for boats but now I know. Thanks. 
Now stop talking and get out on the water


----------



## Capt Len

Once the dust about payment has settled, maybe let your surveyor know he could read this thread for his amazement and edification. Maybe he's a car salesman with the wrong shingle out.


----------



## MedSailor

guitarguy56 said:


> Thanks a lot Medsailor... my SafeCo policy just went up $$$... literally.... my renewal was just this month! :hothead :laugher


Since you're helping pay for my rebuild, I'm pretty sure that buys you rights to use the sauna a couple times. C'mon over, anytime! 

MedSailor


----------



## UnionPacific

please do buy an exhaust elbow with a loop above the waterline.


----------



## aeventyr60

Glad you avoided the short shaft. Happy days ahead for you.


----------



## MedSailor

UnionPacific said:


> please do buy an exhaust elbow with a loop above the waterline.


I wish it were that easy. Putting the elbow above the waterline would involve cutting a hole in the pilothouse floor and allowing the elbow to protrude 12" above the floor.



MedSailor


----------



## Capt Len

A strategically placed Dutch milking stool would fix that.


----------



## Jaramaz

UnionPacific said:


> please do buy an exhaust elbow with a loop above the waterline.


The current installation has worked for many years, and do so on many similar boats - probably a lot of NC. No need to change to engine installation at all.

Two, or maybe three things to consider in the future:
1) always close the raw water intake seacock when engine isn't in use. (nobody likes this. a magnetic valve may be used - think before install.)
2) always check the pissing vent, in one way or the other
3) when hauling the boat, always empty all raw water. directly - do not wait to next day.

Myself I do not always follow these.

/J


----------



## jimgo

Just getting caught up on this thread. VERY glad to hear you had better luck than me, Med! I've been on the sidelines cheering you on!


----------



## Faster

By the by... I had a conversation with our Nauticat dock neighbour the other day and mentioned Med's issues - he had had the same situation himself. The 'pisser' had become blocked at some point and and after a short time at anchor after a run he decided to check the oil and found it 'like a milkshake'...

The engine had not seized, he did a number of serial oil changes and managed to clear things up, and it's running still with reasonable but not totally consistent compression. He definitely ties the experience to the blocked anti-siphon.

He's currently contemplating a precautionary rebuild. His has been quite a project.. full repaint, solid handrails, galley and head total refits, total electrical redo, and now perhaps the powerplant!?!. She's a beauty, though.


----------



## MedSailor

Jaramaz said:


> The current installation has worked for many years, and do so on many similar boats - probably a lot of NC. No need to change to engine installation at all.
> 
> Two, or maybe three things to consider in the future:
> 1) always close the raw water intake seacock when engine isn't in use. (nobody likes this. a magnetic valve may be used - think before install.)
> 2) always check the pissing vent, in one way or the other
> 3) when hauling the boat, always empty all raw water. directly - do not wait to next day.
> 
> Myself I do not always follow these.
> 
> /J


I agree, that these are all going to be part of my new OCD procedures. In particular, I'm going to make checking of "the pisser" a part of the shutdown procedure. It doesn't matter if the engine continues to run if the pisser is clogged, the damage happens at shutdown. I think what I'll do is rev the engine up a bit for a few seconds before shutdown, which will help empty the exhaust water circuit and allow good visualization of "the pisser."

MedSailor


----------



## smackdaddy

I'm definitely going to be checking my engine a bit more closely after this debacle.


----------



## christian.hess

#1 rule of maintenance stay ahead of failure...

aka preventative maintenance


----------



## MedSailor

smackdaddy said:


> I'm definitely going to be checking my engine a bit more closely after this debacle.


I'm thinking I'm going to make sure to have monitors for:

1. Engine coolant temp
2. Engine oil temp
3. Raw water temp
4. Raw water flow meter
5. Coolant flow meter
6. Oil pressure
7. Exhaust temp
8. Fuel flow meter
9. Voltage
10. Amperage
11. and an alarmed flow meter on "the pisser"

Did I miss anything? 

Medsailor


----------



## JonEisberg

MedSailor said:


> I agree, that these are all going to be part of my new OCD procedures. In particular, I'm going to make checking of "the pisser" a part of the shutdown procedure. It doesn't matter if the engine continues to run if the pisser is clogged, the damage happens at shutdown. I think what I'll do is rev the engine up a bit for a few seconds before shutdown, which will help empty the exhaust water circuit and allow good visualization of "the pisser."
> 
> MedSailor


Great news about the settlement, congrats... I'm glad to hear you're going the rebuild route, that Lehman is a great engine that is certainly worth saving, IMHO...

One thing I'd consider re establishing a fail-safe shutdown procedure. How about installing an electric pump to evacuate the waterlift muffler? Doesn't have to be pumped dry, but only have the residual water level lowered beneath the level of the inlet and outlet ports to break any siphon...

Seems to me you really need to do a thorough evaluation of the size of your waterlift relative to the amount of water that drains back into it after shutdown... I'm not clear how high your exhaust discharge is above the waterline, but I'm still mystified how a siphon would have ever been created assuming it's a reasonable height above the water at rest. Raising the height of your exhaust outlet might be something you'd want to consider, as well...

Mine is visible in the pic below, it's higher than most that are situated in the transom, just above the waterline. I'd prefer to have mine even higher, but that's as high as I can go while maintaining a loop in the exhaust hose - the top of which resides slightly above deck level, tucked inside the cockpit coaming...

How high is your current loop or gooseneck fitting? At the very least, you want to get that as high as possible. Of course, that has the consequence of draining a greater volume of water back into the waterlift after shutdown, always sort of a balancing act going on there... That's why I feel having an easy, push-button way to drain or pump out your waterlift might be of great benefit to you...


----------



## UnionPacific

MedSailor said:


> I wish it were that easy. Putting the elbow above the waterline would involve cutting a hole in the pilothouse floor and allowing the elbow to protrude 12" above the floor.
> 
> 
> 
> MedSailor


Not sure I can believe that without more proof. what your saying is the engine compartment is entirely below the waterline, and so is the floor of your pilothouse? That would make the bottom of your engine about 40" below the waterline? I mean is your keel about 30" deeper? Something sounds off.

We have a moderitly deep bilge, and even the bottom of our bilge to the top of the waterline is only about 24". This is barely half way up the engine. I know some are deeper, but 3.5' seems a bit much.

If you are correct, put the water injection elbow where all those vacuum breaks are located.



> The current installation has worked for many years, and do so on many similar boats - probably a lot of NC. No need to change to engine installation at all.


Nothing wrong with redundant protective systems.
Having one protection failed him.


----------



## UnionPacific

Is this what your engine bay looks like?









Dont think straight up with the exhaust.


----------



## christian.hess

jon what about a manual gusher pump that ca do the same? manually drain the slosh of water that goes back...less electrical to go wrong

Im not saying those mods are bad(the list med posted) but the more you add on to an engine the more you have to maintain, especially electrical

to me an engine needs and oil pressure sender, an oil flow, low oil buzzer unit off the pump, meter would be good too, temp, and coolant level if it has one...

an exhaust flow meter would be excessive for me but not opposed to it...

thats it!

prefferably mechanical gauges not electrical...

just sayin

you want to make a diesel into a rocket space ship thats cool just remember that KISS applies here to engine maintenance

btw med congrats on the settlement..you are a rare bird my friend so enjoy it! jajaja


----------



## MedSailor

UnionPacific said:


> Is this what your engine bay looks like?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dont think straight up with the exhaust.


Yes, mine looks exactly like that, only minus the engine. 

I can't route the elbow to where the anti-siphon breaks are as that would involve 5ft of traversing to the port wall and plumbing it up behind the bulkhead. Since we're talking about plumbing before the mixing elbow, we're talking rigid hot pipe. It would vibrate itself to death, and be a fire hazard.

There may be an area under the stairs where I could run it to, but I am leary of uncooled lengths of pipe. Not saying it can't be done, but the consequences of failure if we get too carried away re-engineering something like this are either ruining the engine again, or fire.

I'm more interested in focusing on the siphon break itself. When it works, bad things don't happen. What about using Main-Sail's Scott siphon valve AND the pisser? The valve would be useless so long as the pisser vent was open, but if it were to clog (and they do) the Scott anti-siphon valve would save the day.

Thoughs?

MedSailor

PS I was KIDDING about adding all those gauges!


----------



## christian.hess

jajajaja damn Im too damn gullible damnit

congrats med

get it working again


----------



## Capt Len

I think that big plastic muffler is big enough to hold any residual exhaust water on shut down. It's the 'just possible continous drip' of a failed plumping unit that will cause some difficulty. Adding the internal plastic doohicky may be double insurance Provided there is enough pressure in the line to actually close it when running. It may dribble like crazy if it can't decided open or closed. Just pumping the muffler out on shut down doesn't address the long time drip and fill .Draining into bilge or containing bucket/pump and leaving drain open does. Pearsonally ,I like to get that(evaporate able) water away from the engine internals for shutdown when I close the gate valve to prevent winter winds from to and fro.The whole system as designed and built looks pretty good. Just tweak it and watch out for bugs. (test run next spring on a trip to Naniamo??)


----------



## casey1999

Remember folks that the wasp clogged the anti-siphon vent tube and that caused raw water to come in through Med's raw water engine inlet via the mixing elbow (the valve was left open after engine was shut down). The water did not come from the engines exhaust system or from the engines hull exit.

If Med keeps the air vent open, he should have no further trouble. This boat along with many other NC's have the same design proven over many years. Many times we try to "improve" something we fail to see the problems we mistakenly just created- until our "improvement" leads to a failure.


----------



## desert rat

And I thought that I was parinoid. 
Coolant temp
oil temp
oil pressure
voltage and amperage
Exhaust temp (turbo charger only)
low point drains manual
anti siphon reliable no expense spared
all the best to the man who loves his boat.


----------



## casey1999

MedSailor said:


> I'm thinking I'm going to make sure to have monitors for:
> 
> 1. Engine coolant temp
> 2. Engine oil temp
> 3. Raw water temp
> 4. Raw water flow meter
> 5. Coolant flow meter
> 6. Oil pressure
> 7. Exhaust temp
> 8. Fuel flow meter
> 9. Voltage
> 10. Amperage
> 11. and an alarmed flow meter on "the pisser"
> 
> Did I miss anything?
> 
> Medsailor


I would add this, that NC seems well appointed and after a few drinks, massage from the lady, and a good hot tub soak, you may need it:

DRIVE ALERT MASTER
"The Drive Alert Master is an electronic sleep warning device for sailors, motorists, machinery operators, students---Just about EVERYBODY! It can save lives! It only takes a split second to doze off at the wheel of a vehicle while driving, when operating equipment, studying late at night and near surroundings where dozing off would be dangerous- like sailing a Nauti-Cat.

Now, it is no longer necessary to take such risks! If the driver of a vehicle, or sailor, starts to doze off ever so slightly, The Drive Alert Master sounds a sleep stopping alarm. It rests comfortably over the ear. It is made of high impact plastic and includes a button-type battery that is easily replaceable.

It has a colorful descriptive package with easy instructions. It easily fits into a pocket, purse or ditch bad. The suggested retail price is $39.95. However, our confidential wholesale price to our Dealers is only $15.00 postpaid, which may be paid through Paypal.

Of course our Dealers may also buy in quantity from our website at www.gadgetwholesalers4u.com."


----------



## Capt Len

Gotta get me one of them . will it alarm if my fly is open or under wear showing over my belt? (Sue has to do this and it would save her a lot of work)


----------



## SailRedemption

Anyone have a link to those Scott anti siphon loops? 

I'm in the stage of buying these for all my through hulls, as they are all below the waterline. Not too sure about my mixing elbow yet but I'll definitely be looking at it when I get off the ship! This thread has definitely opened my eyes to these issues. 

Glad you had a successful insurance settlement Med, hope your rebuild/fit goes smoothly and swiftly!


----------



## bfloyd4445

MedSailor said:


> I'm thinking I'm going to make sure to have monitors for:
> 
> 1. Engine coolant temp
> 2. Engine oil temp
> 3. Raw water temp
> 4. Raw water flow meter
> 5. Coolant flow meter
> 6. Oil pressure
> 7. Exhaust temp
> 8. Fuel flow meter
> 9. Voltage
> 10. Amperage
> 11. and an alarmed flow meter on "the pisser"
> 
> Did I miss anything?
> 
> Medsailor


mercury outboards do most of these functions already. Should be an after market program you can use to log sensor data into with alarms that would work. If merc can do it everyone should be able to.


----------



## albrazzi

MedSailor said:


> Cause of the claim? Why I thought y'all would never ask.
> 
> So, there's more than one answer to this. First, there's the answer to what actually happened, and then there are various shades of grey as far as what insurance has told me happened... or not.
> 
> Originally, after the autopsy, I was corresponding with the insurance surveyor regularly about the facts and details. His resposes started to become less verbose, more vague, and less frequent. The best I got in the end was that he was "leaning away" from the siphon as a cause and that it likely occured as a result of shipping.
> 
> Why the decrease in information? I asked a couple times for things to look out for to make sure this doesn't happen again. Nothing, except putting a drain in my water lift muffler would be a good idea.
> 
> Perhaps he was getting weary of my pestering. I've had that happen in medicine when an overly-zelous layperson with access to Google is continually trying to "help" me diagnose a patient. I'm aware of our reversal of roles here, and wouldn't be surprized if this was the case from his point of view.
> 
> Or is it in the insurance companies' best interest not to tell me everything for some reason? Are they going to play the internal finger pointing game and try and split the cost with another insurer somewhere? I don't know.
> 
> In the end they paid up, so either they found the case, and it's covered, and they're not sharing the specifics with me, or they are not certain of the cause and since it's not excluded, they have to pay me. One really nice thing is that they bundled this together with my recent claim so I don't have to pay my $2k deductable again. Yay SafeCo!
> 
> So, what REALLY happened to my engine? Opinions differ it seems between me and the surveyor, but he was also acting on some poor information initially. The yard, who removed the engine, told us that there was no anti-siphon loop in the raw water circuit at all. I found they were wrong. I also measured and found my exhaust mixing elbow IS below the waterline, by about 12 inches.
> 
> For some reason I wasn't able to impress my surveyor with the importance of the above paragraph. He kept getting stuck, it seemed, on the idea that the prurpose of that anti-siphon loop was only to keep water from coming back in through the exhaust. That's not it's purpose on my boat. It would be if my engine was above the waterline.... but....
> 
> My engine (and more to the point) the mixing elbow is below the waterline. (I mentioned that right?  ) If there is no operable way to break a siphon, then when you start the flow of water in through the intake, and it goes through the exchangers, and to the elbow, *it will keep flowing after shutdown.*
> 
> The siphon break "pisser" was working in florida, so no issues on shutdown there. It got plugged by a wasp and delivered to me. I ran it once, and upon shutdown, the siphon formed. Water came in the intake, around the impeller, through the exhangers, and continued to pour in the exhaust mixing elbow. With no exhaust gas to expel it, it filled and filled, until the system was full, as were my cylinders and oil pan.
> 
> MedSailor
> 
> P.S. If I don't unplug that hole, or take other corrective action, I'll ruin the new engine upon shutdown the first time I try it out. Thanks everybody for helping me find the real cause. I'd REALLY be hating life if this happened again as soon as it was fixed.


This thread is very long so forgive me if I missed this but in order for a malfunctioning loop to let water in your impeller needs to be letting water through, right? Would I assume from this that all impellers will leak and cause this issue or could a good impeller save the day if the loop is malfunctioning.
I have to wonder how many water pumps make or break this potential problem. How did yours look in the "autopsy" ?


----------



## Skipper Jer

"Remember folks that the wasp clogged the anti-siphon vent tube......If Med keeps the air vent open, he should have no further trouble. "

Maybe build a screen cage around the anti-siphon vent tube so bugs can't get to it.


----------



## albrazzi

Captainmeme said:


> "Remember folks that the wasp clogged the anti-siphon vent tube......If Med keeps the air vent open, he should have no further trouble. "
> 
> Maybe build a screen cage around the anti-siphon vent tube so bugs can't get to it.


Maybe you weren't trying to answer my question but it would seem to me two things would have to happen in order for water to intrude this way. I don't ask as a challenge just as a curiosity.


----------



## Capt Len

Leak by an impeller is nearly a given. If the thru hull is open so is the entire salt side to the anti syphon hose/device. If that doesn't let air in, the exhaust fills up and problems ensue . I solved this years ago by leading the raw water up to an anti syphon (which has a small sucking vent) and back down to the pump inlet. Could have the usual anti syphon on the hose to the mixer (redundancy doesn't hurt. This has been a successful solution for years and ignore it at your peril.:


----------



## JonEisberg

Capt Len said:


> Leak by an impeller is nearly a given. If the thru hull is open so is the entire salt side to the anti syphon hose/device. If that doesn't let air in, the exhaust fills up and problems ensue . I solved this years ago by leading the raw water up to an anti syphon (which has a small sucking vent) and back down to the pump inlet. Could have the usual anti syphon on the hose to the mixer (redundancy doesn't hurt. This has been a successful solution for years and ignore it at your peril.:


Yup, I'm amazed that's not more commonplace, but I rarely see an anti-siphon in the raw water inlet side on any of the boats I run...

I've done mine a bit differently, by running up to anti-siphon roughly 2 feet above the waterline _AFTER_ the water pump, then back down to the header tank. The anti-siphon vent is situated outside of the engine compartmant, above the counter surface in the galley and beneath the level of the port cockpit seat, making it very accessible and easy to inspect...

Like you, it's been a good solution for me so far, no problems whatsoever...

Knock on wood...


----------



## Capt Len

The solution I mentioned was an independent development to the suck and blow of water management issue. When I blew the seals on my raw water pump it only leaked when the engine was running so I didn't have to fix it right away. If a hose clamp fails or ?? it only leaks when the engine is running If I forget to close the thruhull, no biggie. The engine starts because it's not full of water as a result of a tiny little flopper gasket failing or a bug laying eggs. But whatever works for you!!!


----------



## MedSailor

Capt Len said:


> The solution I mentioned was an independent development to the suck and blow of water management issue.


Forgive me captain but sometimes I have a hard time understanding you. What do you mean by a sucking vent?

I get the impression you have a novel solution but I can't picture it. Can you diagram it or take photos?

As for altering what I have, I could, and might, add a screen to the pisser. I worry that it won't piss as far and thus will inhibit inspection.

Is there any reason i couldn't just add the scot vent to the pisser fitting? Seems to me like that might be the best of both worlds. The inspect ability of the pisser with a failsafe in case it clogs.

Med


----------



## Faster

Aren't most 'anti siphon' valves really 'vacuum breakers'?.. ie they'll close against pressure but open in the event of a vacuum developing.. If so, your 'pisser' wouldn't piss.. so to speak...


----------



## albrazzi

Capt Len said:


> The solution I mentioned was an independent development to the suck and blow of water management issue. When I blew the seals on my raw water pump it only leaked when the engine was running so I didn't have to fix it right away. If a hose clamp fails or ?? it only leaks when the engine is running If I forget to close the thruhull, no biggie. The engine starts because it's not full of water as a result of a tiny little flopper gasket failing or a bug laying eggs. But whatever works for you!!!


You lost me, if your seal is leaking and I assume the one on the water pump shaft then its almost always below the water line so I don't get the only when its running comment. If it only leaks when running it will surely be just a matter of time before it leaks al the time. A failed clamp would let water in the boat no matter what.


----------



## albrazzi

MedSailor said:


> Forgive me captain but sometimes I have a hard time understanding you. What do you mean by a sucking vent?
> 
> I get the impression you have a novel solution but I can't picture it. Can you diagram it or take photos?
> 
> As for altering what I have, I could, and might, add a screen to the pisser. I worry that it won't piss as far and thus will inhibit inspection.
> 
> Is there any reason i couldn't just add the scot vent to the pisser fitting? Seems to me like that might be the best of both worlds. The inspect ability of the pisser with a failsafe in case it clogs.
> 
> Med


I agree with Faster, you cant have both, the pisser is just a loop without a vent Vacuum breaker allowing a small amount of water to redirect from cooling your motor, I have concluded there is enough flow so that doesn't affect cooling.


----------



## Capt Len

Judging by the last few posts it's apparent there is some misunderstanding going on . Meds 'pisser' is at the top of a loop ,It's under pressure from the raw pump (so it pisses) and lets in some air to break the syphon effect when the pump stops It's already done its cooling thing and is on the way to the exhaust mixerThe weight of water in the hoses then sucks in some air as the water drains down to the wl or into the mixer and hydo lift. A plastic doohiky on the venting loop would also let in air so no pisser needed. These doohikys pictured earlier work pre.tty good most of the time and can solve some installation problems .the external pisser like an outboard motor shows its condition when working but faith or maintenance needed when shut down .(Did bugs make a plug?)Adding a doohiky to the existing U vent and pisser hose is a possibility but personally ,it belongs in the department of redundancy department. However, I really like having a anti syphon vent on the inlet side of the raw water pump.Hose comes up and over WL and back down to pump inlet. Since the line is negative pressure when running a small hole in the Uvent top will SUCK a bit of air.Not enough to effect the pump operation but will allow a vacuum break when you shut down. I usually add a couple of inches of small copper pipe to a NPT fitting , plug end with solder and drill out suitable diameter hole A long as this hole stays open(airborne particles,bubble gum?) the ingress of salt water stops with the engine. Any failure down the line ,,hoses ,pump. heat exchangers, mixing mufflers are isolated from Neptune And if raw cooled like so many A4s, offers a good place to fill with antifreeze after draining for winterizing .Just pull the hose off the U and pour. While I'm ranting here I may as well mention again the value of a ball valve on the bottom of the water lift muffler and a gate valve on the end of the exhaust hose. All part of controlling water on board.


----------



## aeventyr60

The gate valve on the exhaust side suffers to much wire drawing from the mix of salt and exhaust gas residue, I'd stick with a ball valve.


----------



## albrazzi

Capt Len said:


> Judging by the last few posts it's apparent there is some misunderstanding going on . Meds 'pisser' is at the top of a loop ,It's under pressure from the raw pump (so it pisses) and lets in some air to break the syphon effect when the pump stops It's already done its cooling thing and is on the way to the exhaust mixerThe weight of water in the hoses then sucks in some air as the water drains down to the wl or into the mixer and hydo lift. A plastic doohiky on the venting loop would also let in air so no pisser needed. These doohikys pictured earlier work pre.tty good most of the time and can solve some installation problems .the external pisser like an outboard motor shows its condition when working but faith or maintenance needed when shut down .(Did bugs make a plug?)Adding a doohiky to the existing U vent and pisser hose is a possibility but personally ,it belongs in the department of redundancy department. However, I really like having a anti syphon vent on the inlet side of the raw water pump.Hose comes up and over WL and back down to pump inlet. Since the line is negative pressure when running a small hole in the Uvent top will SUCK a bit of air.Not enough to effect the pump operation but will allow a vacuum break when you shut down. I usually add a couple of inches of small copper pipe to a NPT fitting , plug end with solder and drill out suitable diameter hole A long as this hole stays open(airborne particles,bubble gum?) the ingress of salt water stops with the engine. Any failure down the line ,,hoses ,pump. heat exchangers, mixing mufflers are isolated from Neptune And if raw cooled like so many A4s, offers a good place to fill with antifreeze after draining for winterizing .Just pull the hose off the U and pour. While I'm ranting here I may as well mention again the value of a ball valve on the bottom of the water lift muffler and a gate valve on the end of the exhaust hose. All part of controlling water on board.


I get it now, basically you are creating a "reverse pisser" (sorry for that image) where the pisser lets out some water, the same thing on the suction side lets some air into the system. The down side as I see it is there is no indication it is working where at least if the pisser is flowing then its venting too. What you're doing with this system is moving the siphon protection to a point before the water pump. I can decide if this is right for me as will others, tanks for the thorough explanation.


----------



## JonEisberg

aeventyr60 said:


> The gate valve on the exhaust side suffers to much wire drawing from the mix of salt and exhaust gas residue, I'd stick with a ball valve.


Agreed... I hate gate valves, and don't think they have any place, on any boat...

Exhaust shut-offs are essential, IMHO, for any boat going offshore or with any reasonable expectation of encountering heavy weather. But on the overwhelming percentage of boats with transom exhausts, they are likely located in places so inconvenient to access, that they should not be relied upon as being a necessary component of any system designed to prevent flooding of an engine after a routine shutdown...



albrazzi said:


> I get it now, basically you are creating a "reverse pisser" (sorry for that image) where the pisser lets out some water, the same thing on the suction side lets some air into the system. The down side as I see it is there is no indication it is working where at least if the pisser is flowing then its venting too. *What you're doing with this system is moving the siphon protection to a point before the water pump.* I can decide if this is right for me as will others, tanks for the thorough explanation.


As I said before, I'm surprised this isn't more common... However, I wonder about venting the raw water line _before_ the water pump, rather than _beyond_... Seems to me, upon startup with that configuration, the impeller will momentarily be running 'dry' to a certain extent before a full water flow can be re-established, no? With the siphon break between the pump and the header tank, there will be no air in the line before the water pump, and you won't be trying to suck air thru the pump itself...


----------



## Minnewaska

Okay, Med. Now that you are back on the path to having your boat in repair, you're going to have to do some formal ritual to apologize to Neptune for saying you hate boats. That kind of karma is going to follow you around.


----------



## Capt Len

Jon, you're right about a momentary passing of air but unless the hoses are huge, I don't think thats a problem. It's not like the pump starts from dry as the only air is in the portion above the WL and I'm not advocating a hose run up into the wheel house. A heat ex doesn't usually have a header tank on the salt side and should be mounted low enough that the fresh side can circulate without an air lock anyway. The impeller can outlast the belt that drives it (not likely to be tested like that) so the regular maintenance change is on the list anyway. My choice for an exhaust shut off is the type used for RVs holding tanks Easily installed anywhere along the exhaust hose but at the hull or transom makes most sense. Dagger board ,various sizes ,inexpensive, very durable plastic ,can be remoted with a push/pull broom handle. Lots of ways to manage water on board, but if a sailor fails to get a grip on it, he should go ashore (and sit to pee)


----------



## Capt Len

An after thought about putting the ASV (anti syphon vent) before the pump .If you have a drip less water cooled shaft gland tied into the system ,give some thought as to where it's tied in. I've never had one so not a concern but if it were to let any water in thru the hind seal it's down the hose to ????. Personally ,I consider them to be frail little things that can't stand a little trodding on. (which can easily happen considering the hired help) A bit of planning and a before and after ASV would be my choice.


----------



## UnionPacific

Capt Len, please stop. I cannot sit here and rebut everything you said, so I will just say its all wrong, on many levels.


----------



## MedSailor

Faster said:


> Aren't most 'anti siphon' valves really 'vacuum breakers'?.. ie they'll close against pressure but open in the event of a vacuum developing.. If so, your 'pisser' wouldn't piss.. so to speak...


I think I CAN have my cake and eat it to. But please, comment on what I have in mind. I think it should work, but I'm no expert in this area. First, a picture of the status quo.










The top of the vent loop has a 90deg elbow, and short run of hose to a T-fitting at the hull. Half of the T-fitting is plugged up, but easy to open, so you can clean out the pisser exit vent. Essentially, it's functioning as a 90deg elbow when operating, and water, under pressure from the impeller, travels up the loop, and through both 90deg elbows and a small amount of it "pisses" out the vent (unless plugged by wasps).

What I would like to do, is change the 90degree fitting at the top of the vent for a T-fitting. To the T-fitting I would fit a traditional anti-siphon vent.










Under normal operation, the newly fitted anti-siphon vent should be under pressure, and closed. The pisser remains open, so it pisses. If the pisser were to clog, the anti-siphon vent should open under the "suction" of the induced siphon, and it will break the siphon.

So, in theory, I have the piece of mine of being able to see the pisser functioning, but if I fail to check it, and it is clogged, the anti-siphon vent may save the day.

MedSailor


----------



## IStream

MedSailor said:


> I think I CAN have my cake and eat it to. But please, comment on what I have in mind. I think it should work, but I'm no expert in this area. First, a picture of the status quo.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The top of the vent loop has a 90deg elbow, and short run of hose to a T-fitting at the hull. Half of the T-fitting is plugged up, but easy to open, so you can clean out the pisser exit vent. Essentially, it's functioning as a 90deg elbow when operating, and water, under pressure from the impeller, travels up the loop, and through both 90deg elbows and a small amount of it "pisses" out the vent (unless plugged by wasps).
> 
> What I would like to do, is change the 90degree fitting at the top of the vent for a T-fitting. To the T-fitting I would fit a traditional anti-siphon vent.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Under normal operation, the newly fitted anti-siphon vent should be under pressure, and closed. The pisser remains open, so it pisses. If the pisser were to clog, the anti-siphon vent should open under the "suction" of the induced siphon, and it will break the siphon.
> 
> So, in theory, I have the piece of mine of being able to see the pisser functioning, but if I fail to check it, and it is clogged, the anti-siphon vent may save the day.
> 
> MedSailor


I think this is a good idea but I'd modify the implementation. Leave the 90 on the loop, pull the plug on the T, and install the vent there so it's a little higher, a little more accessible, and uses existing hardware.


----------



## Capt Len

When I first joined Sail Net I thought it a great site where boaters of all sorts could post questions,opinions solutions about common issues. We as a group have the the responsibility to ponder advise,cajole ignore or just troll. Further personal responsibility to sift and reject before any action is ill-advisedly taken without peer pressure acceptance. I,personally will discuss,defend, modify or retract any post I've made based on your due diligence (read and respond) With a 'like rate' of 25% I'm not unhappy with the system. (not that I'm keeping score) .When I'm told to stop !!! Well, that's the job of the moderators .AS for rebuttals note that Med did not rebute me on my flippant solution of a Dutch milking stool to your not well thought out post to him. It may come as a surprise to you, UP, that it's not all about you and your really stupid blog. If rebuttals tax your obviously limited talents ,not my problem. Sorry to the rest of you but this was not a drift. I steer the course I plot ,.But UP, since I think you needs some practice in pondering, ponder this.....XXXX YOU


----------



## UnionPacific

Capt Len said:


> My choice for an exhaust shut off is the type used for RVs holding tanks Easily installed anywhere along the exhaust hose but at the hull or transom makes most sense.


So your going to install a PVC shutoff from an RV that mounts using 4 screws in some cob job fashion? A device that is not designed for pressure, heat, shock loading, or for its ability to be air tight.








What is most likely to happen, is your most likely to kill MedSailor with the CO2 leakage, or it splitting off from the cob job mount and flooding the boat. I may not tell you to stop, but I asked you to. The reason is, and I thought I was very tactful, that advice like what you have given rises to a not before seen, S/V Flying Hawaiian level, where you're brainstorming and calling it an idea. I work with an ID woman who would have more sense then to try what you have suggested. After reading that little tidbit I thought it was the best time to stop you.

Frankly given your history of advice and opinion, I don't care what you think of our blog. Your opinion is worth less to me then the crud on my dogs eyes in the morning. Go ahead, cob your own boat, and get killed trying. Don't offer your demented ideas as advice to others. Thank you, and I shall not respond your your last self censored comment of hate. Have a nice day, and do try and stay safe.


----------



## casey1999

MedSailor said:


> I think I CAN have my cake and eat it to. But please, comment on what I have in mind. I think it should work, but I'm no expert in this area. First, a picture of the status quo.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The top of the vent loop has a 90deg elbow, and short run of hose to a T-fitting at the hull. Half of the T-fitting is plugged up, but easy to open, so you can clean out the pisser exit vent. Essentially, it's functioning as a 90deg elbow when operating, and water, under pressure from the impeller, travels up the loop, and through both 90deg elbows and a small amount of it "pisses" out the vent (unless plugged by wasps).
> 
> What I would like to do, is change the 90degree fitting at the top of the vent for a T-fitting. To the T-fitting I would fit a traditional anti-siphon vent.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Under normal operation, the newly fitted anti-siphon vent should be under pressure, and closed. The pisser remains open, so it pisses. If the pisser were to clog, the anti-siphon vent should open under the "suction" of the induced siphon, and it will break the siphon.
> 
> So, in theory, I have the piece of mine of being able to see the pisser functioning, but if I fail to check it, and it is clogged, the anti-siphon vent may save the day.
> 
> MedSailor


Med,
You might have at least two problems with your proposed install:
1. Per the Scot instructions, the Scot siphon break needs two feet of water vacuum head to break the spring. Will your modified break provide the two feet (note this assume your pisser is clogged and not providing the "break")?

2. Per the Scot instructions, the Scot anti-siphon depends on your sea water pump pressure to keep the spring valve shut. Seeing your pressure will drop due to you pissser also installed (assuming the pisser is not clogged) then you may end up getting some sea water spraying out of the Scot vent.

3. The above could be intermittent problems. That is at times your mod may work fine. However, at times the mod may spray or dribble water into your engine room area causing corrosive damage to equipment there.

Here is the Scot install instructions:
http://www.scotpumpmarine.com/sn/SN-890-913.pdf

I would contact Scot and talk to there engineering dept to get their opinions on any mods.


----------



## casey1999

Med,
Me personally I would just stay with your current "pisser" design. I have the exact same design on my boat and it has worked for over 30 years. I am considering installing a couple of ball valves and a manual "blow" hose on my vent so that I can "orally blow" my "pisser" in two directions (I hope you are following me). One direction would be into the U tube and the other would be to the thru hull. If one were to do this at every engine start up, you should be nearly 100% covered on your "pisser" clogging. I will see if I can delegate this task to my wife. I bet one never knew boating could be so exciting. You could even run these "pisser" blow hoses to the cockpit, but that is for another discussion.


----------



## Faster

I'm with Casey..

I think you've got two 'keepers'... Keep your current 'pisser'.... Keep It Simple.... Keep the pisser clear...

OK.. that's three


----------



## IStream

casey1999 said:


> Med,
> You might have at least two problems with your proposed install:
> 1. Per the Scot instructions, the Scot siphon break needs two feet of water vacuum head to break the spring. Will your modified break provide the two feet (note this assume your pisser is clogged and not providing the "break")?
> 
> 2. Per the Scot instructions, the Scot anti-siphon depends on your sea water pump pressure to keep the spring valve shut. Seeing your pressure will drop due to you pissser also installed (assuming the pisser is not clogged) then you may end up getting some sea water spraying out of the Scot vent.
> 
> 3. The above could be intermittent problems. That is at times your mod may work fine. However, at times the mod may spray or dribble water into your engine room area causing corrosive damage to equipment there.
> 
> Here is the Scot install instructions:
> http://www.scotpumpmarine.com/sn/SN-890-913.pdf
> 
> I would contact Scot and talk to there engineering dept to get their opinions on any mods.


I see where #1 is mentioned in the instructions and it's definitely something to check, but I'd be surprised if Med didn't have 2 feet from his pisser to the waterline.

I don't think #2 is correct. If the valve is "normally closed" by spring pressure, it doesn't need water pressure to keep it closed. Any water pressure just adds to the spring pressure and I think that's what the (slightly vague) language in the instructions is saying. As you suggest, a quick call to Scot will clear up any ambiguity.

In the end, I tend to agree that this mod is probably unnecessary. The boat was on stands and on a trailer overland for a long time and that's probably when the pisser got "wasped". I think the odds of it happening out on the water, here in the PNW, on a frequently-used boat are very low. That said, stranger things have happened and I don't think there's any harm done in adding the anti-siphon and with such a high downside to a clogged pisser, it's not a bad idea.


----------



## casey1999

IStream said:


> I see where #1 is mentioned in the instructions and it's definitely something to check, but I'd be surprised if Med didn't have 2 feet from his pisser to the waterline.
> 
> I don't think #2 is correct. If the valve is "normally closed" by spring pressure, it doesn't need water pressure to keep it closed. Any water pressure just adds to the spring pressure and I think that's what the (slightly vague) language in the instructions is saying. As you suggest, a quick call to Scot will clear up any ambiguity.
> 
> In the end, I tend to agree that this mod is probably unnecessary. The boat was on stands and on a trailer overland for a long time and that's probably when the pisser got "wasped". I think the odds of it happening out on the water, here in the PNW, on a frequently-used boat are very low. That said, stranger things have happened and I don't think there's any harm done in adding the anti-siphon and with such a high downside to a clogged pisser, it's not a bad idea.


I thought as you did on item 2, but then I read the Scot cut sheet and it states "pressure in the loop keeps the valve closed". This tells me the spring may not seal the vent valve in all situations. And if salt water exits the vent even once, the salt build up may make the valve not seal 100 percent. That defeats the purpose of the Scot design. In any case a call to Scot would verify.

Me, I would have one or the other. I am not sure if both types of breaks increases reliability and now one has two types of breaks to maintain.


----------



## MedSailor

Thanks for the thoughts on this topic. This particular modification appeals to me because it is not a big change, and may add the level of redundancy I am looking for. big changes invite unintended consequences, so I'm staying away from major system modifications. Whatever modification I do, I am definitely keeping the pisser. There's no way I'd easily sleep at night without a verifiable way to see that the system is working. 

My big beef with the pisser is the man-in-the-loop part. I'd really like to idiot proof this whole thing, considering the consequences. It should be really clear that I'm a idiot, so theres that, but also most boat operators aren't used to checking a pisser. I'd like to be able to have a yard launch my boat in my absence, for example, without having to give detailed instructions about a pisser. Even if I did this, what would my instructions be if the pisser wasn't flowing? It gets complicated too quickly for non-owner operators. 

I recognize that this particular brand of wasp doesn't live in the PNW, but I feel that's missing the point. A catastrophic failure mode has been identified and it can happen again if ANYTHING clogs the vent. I'm also planning on sailing to Mexico, the South Pacific and Australia. Surely there's some pre-historic, poisonous, spiky, pouched thing that would love to climb in the vent and make a home. Heck, when I was camping in the outback a bug did exactly that in my friend's ear. 

As far as the functioning of the vent, I think I'm okay here. I can easily add the vent by teeing into the system at the top of the loop. If the system fails to keep the valve closed, I'll easily be able to see leakage and go back to the original system. I definitely have over 2 feet of head, so I expect this will work. I don't imagine any way where installing this vent will CAUSE a siphon to form and invite catastrophe, so I feel it is a safe and easy modification to try. 

As far as 2 systems to maintain, the second system is a backup and if it were to fail, I'm exactly back where I started. I'm pretty likely to want to maintain this item though, considering what happened. 

MedSailor


----------



## IStream

MedSailor said:


> Thanks for the thoughts on this topic. This particular modification appeals to me because it is not a big change, and may add the level of redundancy I am looking for. big changes invite unintended consequences, so I'm staying away from major system modifications. Whatever modification I do, I am definitely keeping the pisser. There's no way I'd easily sleep at night without a verifiable way to see that the system is working.
> 
> My big beef with the pisser is the man-in-the-loop part. I'd really like to idiot proof this whole thing, considering the consequences. It should be really clear that I'm a idiot, so theres that, but also most boat operators aren't used to checking a pisser. I'd like to be able to have a yard launch my boat in my absence, for example, without having to give detailed instructions about a pisser. Even if I did this, what would my instructions be if the pisser wasn't flowing? It gets complicated too quickly for non-owner operators.
> 
> I recognize that this particular brand of wasp doesn't live in the PNW, but I feel that's missing the point. A catastrophic failure mode has been identified and it can happen again if ANYTHING clogs the vent. I'm also planning on sailing to Mexico, the South Pacific and Australia. Surely there's some pre-historic, poisonous, spiky, pouched thing that would love to climb in the vent and make a home. Heck, when I was camping in the outback a bug did exactly that in my friend's ear.
> 
> As far as the functioning of the vent, I think I'm okay here. I can easily add the vent by teeing into the system at the top of the loop. If the system fails to keep the valve closed, I'll easily be able to see leakage and go back to the original system. I definitely have over 2 feet of head, so I expect this will work. I don't imagine any way where installing this vent will CAUSE a siphon to form and invite catastrophe, so I feel it is a safe and easy modification to try.
> 
> As far as 2 systems to maintain, the second system is a backup and if it were to fail, I'm exactly back where I started. I'm pretty likely to want to maintain this item though, considering what happened.
> 
> MedSailor


Med,
I understand where you're coming from and as long as you've got the two feet at the top of the U, this looks like a good backup system.

That said, I think the simplest and most reliable redundancy mod would be to put a second pisser in, tee'd off the first or off the top of the U. No diaphragms, no springs, no height considerations, just a second hole near the rail, ideally (but not necessarily) on the other side of the boat from the first.

As we've discussed ad nauseum, single pisser systems have proven to be very reliable over huge numbers of boats and lots of years of use, with your boat being the unfortunate exception that proves the rule. If you add another pisser, the odds of both clogging at the same time for any reason other than a plugged U port (to which your current plan is also vulnerable) will be infinitesimally small.


----------



## casey1999

Med,
Why not just call Scot Inc. and run by your fail safe idea? They should know their product and how the mod would impact their design? Would be too bad if the mod caused damage to your engine or boat in some way.


----------



## casey1999

If you want to just buy the Scot vent and no U tube, looks like this is it for $20:
Vacuum Breaker Scot Marine vb-38 Sailboat Supplies, Engine Parts and Boat Parts


----------



## miatapaul

So I have to ask, is the motor back in? how is she running?


----------



## MedSailor

miatapaul said:


> So I have to ask, is the motor back in? how is she running?


No. Not yet. The motor is being shipped to Georgia where these guys for the remanufacture. They told me they were out of engines on the shelf and there were 5 people in line in front of me for Lehman super 90s. That translates to 5 weeks total turnaround time, so I guess they must remanufacture a lot of these engines.  That's a good thing. They sure seem like the pros.

My engine was sent off last week. I figure I'll be back by the end of January with the holidays. Hopefully in the water by the end of February?

MedSailor


----------



## bfloyd4445

MedSailor said:


> No. Not yet. The motor is being shipped to Georgia where these guys for the remanufacture. They told me they were out of engines on the shelf and there were 5 people in line in front of me for Lehman super 90s. That translates to 5 weeks total turnaround time, so I guess they must remanufacture a lot of these engines.  That's a good thing. They sure seem like the pros.
> 
> My engine was sent off last week. I figure I'll be back by the end of January with the holidays. Hopefully in the water by the end of February?
> 
> MedSailor


Lehman's are very good engines last forever with care. I don't think any of the new designs can match them for economy of operation and longevity do you?


----------



## Bill-Rangatira

bfloyd4445 said:


> Lehman's are very good engines last forever with care. I don't think any of the new designs can match them for economy of operation and longevity do you?


or weight


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## MedSailor

bfloyd4445 said:


> Lehman's are very good engines last forever with care. I don't think any of the new designs can match them for economy of operation and longevity do you?


This is a question I pondered at length. In the end, I decided that if the prices were exactly equal, for a full install (driveaway price) I would _prefe_r a well remanufactured Lehman super 90 over a brand new yanmar.

I based this on a lot of specifics that apply to me, but not likely to many others. Among them (in no particular order) were:

1# I don't really care about a few hundred pounds of weight on my boat.
2# The lehman turns slower, which should equate to longevity.
3# No turbo. Not having a turbo removes a failure point and a maintenance item.
#4 Easier service. For example Lehman recommends servicing the injectors only when there is a problem. Yanmar recommends servicing frequently at great cost.
#5 No common rail injection. This is a double edged sword. I have no doubt that the common rail engines are more fuel efficient, but they use higher pressures, smaller injector orifices and have catastrophic failure modes. Fuel efficiency for me is not a big deal. Sure, I'd like to have more fuel efficiency, but I carry 220gallons of diesel without having a single jerry can on deck. That's enough to motor every single leg of my planned PNW to circumnavigate Australia trip except for the Marquesas crossing. 
#6 The Lehman seems to be designed for reliability from the ground up. Simple things like dual belts on the water pump, the ability to use engine oil in place of tranny oil, and many other little details. I'm planning to go to some far off places, so reliability is key. 
#7 The devil you know. There's a lot of information on the Nauticat forums on this engine and the original designer of the engine himself does classes where he tears it down and builds it back up again. Those casses are held yearly in my little town.

MedSailor


----------



## IStream

The Lehman's a beast and I'm sure it'll serve you well for the foreseeable future. Can't wait to see you on the water. Please plan a trip down to Seattle as a shakedown and we'll raise a glass on me!


----------



## MedSailor

Beast is right! I was moving parts around after the autopsy and I lifted the head and realized it was about as heavy as I could possibly lift. I could only carry it a few feet before I had to put it back down.

The whole motor must weigh a ton! 

MedSailor


----------



## UnionPacific

bfloyd4445 said:


> Lehman's are very good engines last forever with care. I don't think any of the new designs can match them for economy of operation and longevity do you?


Yes, kubota will outlast the old fords by many thousands of hours.


----------



## UnionPacific

MedSailor said:


> #6 The Lehman seems to be designed for reliability from the ground up. Simple things like dual belts on the water pump, the ability to use engine oil in place of tranny oil, and many other little details. I'm planning to go to some far off places, so reliability is key.
> 
> MedSailor


Many old timers will tell you how poor having twin V belts is. I have to agree for the most part, they make some valid points.


----------



## Bill-Rangatira

UnionPacific said:


> Many old timers will tell you how poor having twin V belts is. I have to agree for the most part, they make some valid points.


unfortunately that is a hard to verify statement don't see many 50+ yr old kubota's but in 40 years who knows


----------



## UnionPacific

white74 said:


> unfortunately that is a hard to verify statement don't see many 50+ yr old kubota's but in 40 years who knows


Many 60's and 70's kubota tractors still running like new.


----------



## IStream

UnionPacific said:


> Many old timers will tell you how poor having twin V belts is. I have to agree for the most part, they make some valid points.


If you're trying to drive a 140A alternator with twin V belts, it can be a problem. You need both belts to carry comparable loads and any size difference between them will cause one belt to wear disproportionately and fail, leaving you with just one to carry the whole load until it quickly fails too.

Twin belts on a lightly loaded pump work just fine, even if not perfectly matched, and will enhance reliability.


----------



## seaner97

davidpm said:


> I had a student who overheated his Universal so hot it stopped. Waited till it cooled down, opened the raw water valve and started the engine up again.


Overfilled my universal during an oil change on the hard when it wasn't level and I was green, it dieseled, overheated and fried the thermostat. Changed the thermostat, impeller and have many hours on her since.


----------



## dwblueblue

Med, et al,
I wanted to thank you for the incredible detail and the thought given to this thread. I wish only to add that mud wasps not only clog the "pisser," but from our painful experience, they also go up the fuel tank vents and clog the screens. 

Our search for the cause of periodic air in the fuel lines went on for months until we found the mud nests. That will be another story on another thread.

Best of luck with your rebuilt Lehman.


----------



## captain jack

SloopJonB said:


> Also, as one goes down, another is going up, creating an equivalent space. Oil systems are pressurized, not sealed - if you just kept filling, it would rise up into the valley and the rocker box as well, through the drainback holes.
> 
> The problem with overfilling the oil is that the spinning crank will pick up the oil and aerate it (windage), not that it will lock things up.


overfilling can also cause seals to leak as the extra oil pressure can force oil out through the seal.


----------



## MedSailor

It's a beautiful, beautiful, *beautiful! thing*

It's a new, rebuilt, but looks new, engine in my boat! She's sitting on her engine mounts and they (the yard) tell me that they'll launch tomorrow!   

Even though she's not a new engine, I swear she has that "new engine smell!" I've never owned an engine with parts that are actually shiny enough to reflect light!  I think I'm going to cry. 

I am THIS HAPPY. 









MedSailor

PS Safeco just sent me a check (2 days ago) refunding my deductible for this whole debacle. That means they have successfully sued (subrogated) Mack Sails for the costs incurred to them for what they did to my boat.

PPS SUCK IT MACK! You screwed my boat royally and after I sent photos and a nice letter (copies available by PM) of what you did (and wanted to charge me to do) to my boat, you stopped returning my calls. Guess you had to return the calls for the sopena...


----------



## Faster

Great to hear, Med... Enjoy the upcoming season, lord knows you deserve it!


----------



## eherlihy

MedSailor said:


> It's a beautiful, beautiful, *beautiful! thing*
> 
> It's a new, rebuilt, but looks new, engine in my boat! She's sitting on her engine mounts and they (the yard) tell me that they'll launch tomorrow!
> 
> Even though she's not a new engine, I swear she has that "new engine smell!" I've never owned an engine with parts that are actually shiny enough to reflect light!  I think I'm going to cry.
> 
> I am THIS HAPPY.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MedSailor
> 
> PS Safeco just sent me a check (2 days ago) refunding my deductible for this whole debacle. That means they have successfully sued (subrogated) Mack Sails for the costs incurred to them for what they did to my boat.
> 
> PPS SUCK IT MACK! You screwed my boat royally and after I sent photos and a nice letter (copies available by PM) of what you did (and wanted to charge me to do) to my boat, you stopped returning my calls. Guess you had to return the calls for the sopena...


WOOO HOOO!!!!:thewave:

You've been through the wringer on this. Now you have earned the enjoyment that you get from that sauna.

Thank you for sharing the names of the insurance co, and the bone-heads that caused the damage. (and then tried to screw you)
:batter


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## miatapaul

Well I hope your not quite that happy! Congrats what a long strange trip it has been! 

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk


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## djodenda

Ummm.. I don't mean to mess with the happy vibe, but from your picture it seems that they installed your engine vertically instead of horizontally...


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## MedSailor

djodenda said:


> Ummm.. I don't mean to mess with the happy vibe, but from your picture it seems that they installed your engine vertically instead of horizontally...


The yard told me that non-linear installs are "the carbon fiber equivalent" of modern diesel installs. I'm super stoked because they say they are only going to charge me 10k extra to install it this way!!! 

In real news the engine rebuild company forgot an external part (here's hoping they didn't forget any crucial internal parts) and thussly my boat won't be ready until next week.

To cheer my spirits I am donating my day tomorrow (as I had cleared my calendar for launch) to a friend with a 50ft wooden boat that is now leaking (thats wooden boat speak for SINKING). Lest you all think I am a humanitarian I will tell you that using my wooden boat experience to help him is not entirely selfless. After seeing what evils lurk in his bilge I may be happy and thankful for my own allotment of troubles.

Medsailor


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## Bob142

That is the natural state of wooden boats...good luck ... with friends like you...he will be able to postpone...


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## Minnewaska

Congrats Med!! Hope to hear of your first shakedown soon!!


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## bfloyd4445

MedSailor said:


> It's a beautiful, beautiful, *beautiful! thing*
> 
> It's a new, rebuilt, but looks new, engine in my boat! She's sitting on her engine mounts and they (the yard) tell me that they'll launch tomorrow!
> 
> Even though she's not a new engine, I swear she has that "new engine smell!" I've never owned an engine with parts that are actually shiny enough to reflect light!  I think I'm going to cry.
> 
> I am THIS HAPPY.


Hey, that engine looks like mine??? Hummm....wonder were they found this purdy engine for you


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## Capt Len

Unless there's room under the deck to hunker around I bet you've got longish ,strongish arms. a belly pillow and someone sitting on the backs of your legs come fix anything time. Let us know,eh! Looks good happy time now, watch for bugs.


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## MedSailor

Launch day is upon us. Up to date flares have been bought, tide tables checked, lost paperwork (USCG documentation) found and we're ready! Only

*One *

*little *

*glitch. * 

I got _the call_ from the yard. "Please call me immediately, there's a problem with your boat."

So..... the new engine is in, they fired her up the initial report is that coolant was coming out the exhaust, oil was in the exhaust jacket, saltwater is in the oil again, and when they took the head off they found sandblasting sand inside the engine. 









Dear King Neptune,

May I please, pretty please, take my new boat on your ocean for ONE NAUTICAL MILE?

Sincerely,

MedSailor

Anyone else think I should take up a new hobby?  Golf? Knitting? Right now there are so many unknowns it's too much to think about. Was I wrong about the cause of the water in the oil in the first place? If so, WTF about the sand? Did the rebuild company do a crap job? Will they honor their warranty or stiff me like Mack Sails? Even if they honor their warranty, are they really going to pay all the costs of having my yard take the engine out and put it back in? What about the yard? Did they F-up? Will they step up? Will I be sailing this summer or will I be in court suing someone with the lawyers putting liens on my boat to cover the cost?

For those keeping track we are now at 9 months after I bought the boat and 40K in insurance claims and repairs laters. That was before today's phone call. Haven't gotten out of the yard yet. Haven't sailed/motored/drifted one nautical mile yet.

This news is really, really, REALLY, not what I was hoping for, but it was what I was fearing. There were just so many moving parts with this job for something not to go wrong. After all the engine was removed, shipped across country to get rebuilt and re-installed. As upset as I genuinely am, I went to the yard and received this news about my boat immediately after delivering much, much, MUCH worse news to a patient. As much as I want to cry/scream/etc over this new news I find that I just can't after the news I just delivered. The Harsh Lens of perspective that I can't ignore just doesn't allow it. So, along that line of thinking, my family is healthy. I am healthy and I hope you and yours are well.


































MedSailor


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## Faster

I checked the calendar... it's not April 1st yet so I have to believe this is actually happening?

Unbelievable...

You're right about 'perspective' and relative tragedy, of course, but there's no denying that this latest just plain sucks...


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## Bob142

Bad luck but good attitude....stay the heading...

...


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## UnionPacific

WTH.....
Did you call them?
There are very few steps in the process that could put sand in the engine.
Sandblasting being the only one.

If you have not called them the call should go like this:
Hi my new engine is shot.
Ok, we will send you a check.


Don't even ask them to rebuild it again. They are clearly incompetent. 
Check for shipping, install, and all costs.
Then call beta marine, and get a real engine.


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## Minnewaska

For cripes sakes!!! That is gut wrenching, but I'm impressed by your proper perspective on life itself. 

It's hard to even say where to begin. If there was ever a reason to award pain and suffering.

Did they even claim to have test run the engine on the stand? I'm not sure if that is SOP for a marine motor rebuild. Needless to say, it's trashed now and the rebuild shop is clearly at fault. I would press for a brand new motor to settle. Rebuilding this one now, seems futile.


----------



## aeventyr60

Sorry for your pain. Go deal with Stewarts Marine in Ballard. After 20 years my Perkins still running like a top. Sounds like gross negligence on the rebuilders part, and another insurance hassle for you. If you get a wild hair and need to get to the islands...I'd be happy to have you onboard for some sailing in paradise.


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## SVTatia

Med

I am impressed with your ability to deal with this situation – you are either holding in, is a very cool guy or both. Hats off to you. Your analogy of a life experience puts the incident in perspective. After all, this is entirely optional, although this is supposed to be your therapeutic realm, good health comes first and if you deal with this the wrong way, mind and body will be affected and the cycle begins.
Go after the inept “professionals” with a cool head as you have done. Check the possibility of getting a new diesel, and I hope you’ll be able to enjoy your sauna soon so that you can be.
Best of luck.


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## djodenda

Sorry, Med..
Weather's getting nice.. Come on down to Edmonds. I will take you and your family sailing. Free beer on the boat.


----------



## alctel

Wow. Unbelievable! I hope you get it resolved painlessly


----------



## seaner97

That blows. And sucks. And any other euphemism you'd like to use. Does sound like you will be getting a new engine out of the deal, but not potentially in the timeframe you were hoping. It's amazing how being in medicine gives you some perspective on this stuff, though- isn't it? Been there, but still not pleasant.
Best of luck, and if you ever sail north to Maine (eventually) I'll find you a mooring to hang off if you need it.


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## IStream

Unbelievable. All I can say is, you've got the right attitude and it'll be all the sweeter when you do finally get out there.


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## paul323

Sandblasting sand makes it a pretty open and closed case, IMHO. As has been said, push for a new engine. Damn sorry about it - but your attitude is spot on, so Karma will come around...


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## guitarguy56

No words Med.... there simply is nothing to say but silence on what has happened to you and your sailboat... Hope it gets resolved quickly... my hat's off to you... you are one cool cat... keep it this way.


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## JonEisberg

guitarguy56 said:


> No words Med.... there simply is nothing to say but silence on what has happened to you and your sailboat... Hope it gets resolved quickly... my hat's off to you... you are one cool cat... keep it this way.


Yup, what he said, in spades...

Damn, Med, I can't believe what you've been put thru with with deal... Really a pity, because in my opinion your Ford Lehman is a damn good engine, I've had wonderful luck with them over the years, and would be happy to have one in my boat if they made one small enough...

Really admire your attitude, certainly helps me put the comparatively minor frustration I'm having trying to troubleshoot an issue I'm having with my radar in perspective...

We're all pulling for you and your beautiful family, this will all come right sooner or later...


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## albrazzi

Is the guy who installed the motor in contact with the builder or does he not want to get involved. It would seem to me at some point someone needs to sort some things out and be responsible for their work or maybe too many people are involved in the process.
As a contractor ( I am) nothing is worse than doing a job with all the equipment furnished by the customer. If I'm missing something here forgive me but this thread is so long with all the condolences its hard to get to the point.
Ditto on the personal outlook, no profession calls for more perspective than yours. We all thank you.


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## MedSailor

albrazzi said:


> Is the guy who installed the motor in contact with the builder or does he not want to get involved. It would seem to me at some point someone needs to sort some things out and be responsible for their work or maybe too many people are involved in the process.
> As a contractor ( I am) nothing is worse than doing a job with all the equipment furnished by the customer. If I'm missing something here forgive me but this thread is so long with all the condolences its hard to get to the point.
> Ditto on the personal outlook, no profession calls for more perspective than yours. We all thank you.


You're right on the money with this question. Once the yard realized that the ship had hit the fan they notified me, and we waited until the rebuild place (east coast time) was open the next day. A phone call later, we know what happened.....

And believe it or not, *it's good news! * (or appears to be) 

Here's what happened. The yard screwed up. The engine has many plugs in the block that connect to the internals. You can use these plugs for oil or coolant gauges or to tap into the supply of either for filtration or to install cold starting heaters or tap into the coolant to heat a hot water tank etc.

One of these taps is tapped into for the return circuit of coolant that goes to the hot water heater. Problem is, the yard hooked up the coolant return circuit to a plug that was connected to the oil galleries.

Water pump > galley hot water heat exchanger > block plug connected to coolant = correct.

Water pump > galley hot water heat exchanger > block plug connected to oil galleries =  oops.

So what happened upon startup was that the oil pump reached 80psi, the water pump started trying to pump coolant through the exchanger, and the two fought each other. The 80psi oil pump apparently won and oil was being pumped into the coolant and over-filled the coolant header tank which started geysering from the cap. The engine was apparently shut down before oil pressure was lost or over-heating could occur.

So the water in the oil isn't salt water, it's coolant. That's good. But what about the sand you say (and I asked at this point).

The rebuild shop says that some sand-blasting sand is always left over inside their heat exchangers as part of their process. Because the sand is in the coolant circuit they don't worry about it (hmmmm.... I don't really like that, buy if you say so) and thus the sand that was found is not because some hung-over joe forgot to take the sand out of all of the engine. Definately good news.

Now the question is, because sandy coolant was mixing with oil, did sand get into the oil? If so, it'll be in the bearings and in all the places where you want lubricant, not abrasion. That could mean pulling the engine out of the boat again and tearing down the whole thing again to clean it out.

In theory because the oil pump was stronger than the coolant pump, and their outflows were connected together, the only direction things flowed was oil into the coolant, not the other way around. Theory...

The yard, for their part, immediately took full ownership of the mistake and promised to make it right. Before I even had a chance to suggest it they told me that they're sending an oil sample to the lab to look for sand because they want to be SURE there isn't any in there. They have assured me that they will fix it all at their cost.

The yard also explained how the mistake was made (and were careful not to call it an excuse) by telling me that these plugs all look alike, are all right next to each other, and when they shipped off the engine it still had the bronze elbow attached to the correct plug. When they got the engine back the elbow was gone, and only one plug was loose and half threaded in. All the others were tight and painted over. Apparently the loose/obvious one was the wrong one. In addition, when the called the rebuild place and started explaining the symptoms the rebuild place apparently asked "oh, does this boat have a hot water heater? I bet you hooked it up to the oil. This happens pretty often."  Really? Yes the yard should have known better, but a "remove before flight" flag or some equally obvious marking wouldn't take the rebuild shop much time. Still... the yard's fault.

If there isn't sand in the oil, then it may just be a matter of flushing both systems a million times and I might still have an un-harmed engine. If sand got into the oil, it should still "just" be a matter of pulling it out and cleaning the heck out of it instead of a complete re-rebuild. I also have some questions about how this affects the warranty on my rebuild. Did this void the warranty? If so, will the yard give me a warranty?

As it is, it looks like it's not as bad as it sounded, which is pretty damn amazing considering the initial report of symptoms. Salt water in the oil again, coolant mixing with oil, coolant coming out the exhaust (turns out this was mis-information) and sand in the block and now they're telling me that they might have me back in the water in a couple weeks. That's like a nurse telling me that a patient is flatlining, stroking, and the defibrillator paddles set him on fire, but when I get there he's sitting up eating lunch.  I'll take it. 

Thank you everyone for your kind words and support. I am now _cautiously_ optimistic.

Medsailor


----------



## Minnewaska

MedSailor said:


> ......a patient is flatlining, stroking, and the defibrillator paddles set him on fire, but when I get there he's sitting up eating lunch.  I'll take it.  ......


Classic analogy. It's a keeper.

Glad it seems much better than you imagined. That yard owes you one and it only starts with their assumption of the warranty.

Oil analysis are usually a sample, so I'm not sure they are proof of purity in this situation. I would have multiple flushes done, with multiple filter changes and have them all tested. I assume they sent the oil filter too.

Hope you are on the water forgetting about all of this soon.


----------



## UnionPacific

MedSailor said:


> You're right on the money with this question. Once the yard realized that the ship had hit the fan they notified me, and we waited until the rebuild place (east coast time) was open the next day. A phone call later, we know what happened.....
> 
> And believe it or not, *it's good news! * (or appears to be)
> 
> Here's what happened. The yard screwed up. The engine has many plugs in the block that connect to the internals. You can use these plugs for oil or coolant gauges or to tap into the supply of either for filtration or to install cold starting heaters or tap into the coolant to heat a hot water tank etc.
> 
> One of these taps is tapped into for the return circuit of coolant that goes to the hot water heater. Problem is, the yard hooked up the coolant return circuit to a plug that was connected to the oil galleries.
> 
> Water pump > galley hot water heat exchanger > block plug connected to coolant = correct.
> 
> Water pump > galley hot water heat exchanger > block plug connected to oil galleries = oops.
> 
> So what happened upon startup was that the oil pump reached 80psi, the water pump started trying to pump coolant through the exchanger, and the two fought each other. The 80psi oil pump apparently won and oil was being pumped into the coolant and over-filled the coolant header tank which started geysering from the cap. The engine was apparently shut down before oil pressure was lost or over-heating could occur.
> 
> So the water in the oil isn't salt water, it's coolant. That's good. But what about the sand you say (and I asked at this point).
> 
> The rebuild shop says that some sand-blasting sand is always left over inside their heat exchangers as part of their process. Because the sand is in the coolant circuit they don't worry about it (hmmmm.... I don't really like that, buy if you say so) and thus the sand that was found is not because some hung-over joe forgot to take the sand out of all of the engine. Definately good news.
> 
> Now the question is, because sandy coolant was mixing with oil, did sand get into the oil? If so, it'll be in the bearings and in all the places where you want lubricant, not abrasion. That could mean pulling the engine out of the boat again and tearing down the whole thing again to clean it out.
> 
> In theory because the oil pump was stronger than the coolant pump, and their outflows were connected together, the only direction things flowed was oil into the coolant, not the other way around. Theory...
> 
> The yard, for their part, immediately took full ownership of the mistake and promised to make it right. Before I even had a chance to suggest it they told me that they're sending an oil sample to the lab to look for sand because they want to be SURE there isn't any in there. They have assured me that they will fix it all at their cost.
> 
> The yard also explained how the mistake was made (and were careful not to call it an excuse) by telling me that these plugs all look alike, are all right next to each other, and when they shipped off the engine it still had the bronze elbow attached to the correct plug. When they got the engine back the elbow was gone, and only one plug was loose and half threaded in. All the others were tight and painted over. Apparently the loose/obvious one was the wrong one. In addition, when the called the rebuild place and started explaining the symptoms the rebuild place apparently asked "oh, does this boat have a hot water heater? I bet you hooked it up to the oil. This happens pretty often."  Really? Yes the yard should have known better, but a "remove before flight" flag or some equally obvious marking wouldn't take the rebuild shop much time. Still... the yard's fault.
> 
> If there isn't sand in the oil, then it may just be a matter of flushing both systems a million times and I might still have an un-harmed engine. If sand got into the oil, it should still "just" be a matter of pulling it out and cleaning the heck out of it instead of a complete re-rebuild. I also have some questions about how this affects the warranty on my rebuild. Did this void the warranty? If so, will the yard give me a warranty?
> 
> As it is, it looks like it's not as bad as it sounded, which is pretty damn amazing considering the initial report of symptoms. Salt water in the oil again, coolant mixing with oil, coolant coming out the exhaust (turns out this was mis-information) and sand in the block and now they're telling me that they might have me back in the water in a couple weeks. That's like a nurse telling me that a patient is flatlining, stroking, and the defibrillator paddles set him on fire, but when I get there he's sitting up eating lunch.  I'll take it.
> 
> Thank you everyone for your kind words and support. I am now _cautiously_ optimistic.
> 
> Medsailor


Get everything in writing, get the yard confession in writing too. TELLING you they did wrong will not hold up in court, if needed.

If your going to stay with this engine, get a coolant filter to get that sand out of the lines. BTW sand in the coolant is abrasive too.


----------



## TakeFive

UnionPacific said:


> Get everything in writing, get the yard confession in writing too. TELLING you they did wrong will not hold up in court, if needed.


Sometimes you need to be careful not to poison the water. This yard has come clean and offered to fix everything. Yes, it's their fault, so they would lose their ass in court. But creating a litigious environment by trying to force them to sign a document admitting their mistakes could create a situation where everyone loses except the lawyers. It's best to try to stay out of court.

OP should follow his instincts (which so far have proven to be pretty savvy) and keep things on a course leading to an amicable resolution.


----------



## capecodda

TakeFive said:


> Sometimes you need to be careful not to poison the water. This yard has come clean and offered to fix everything. Yes, it's their fault, so they would lose their ass in court. But creating a litigious environment by trying to force them to sign a document admitting their mistakes could create a situation where everyone loses except the lawyers. It's best to try to stay out of court.
> 
> OP should follow his instincts (which so far have proven to be pretty savvy) and keep things on a course leading to an amicable resolution.


Concur completely. I've experienced a bad yard mess-up of the same scale $$$ as Med, although I cannot say it was recurring like Meds...his is one for the history books. We sat down and figured out a reasonable resolution. We are all still on talking terms. It's a small industry, and a small world of sailors, and most yards are smart enough to know that. And Med you're attitude is exemplary! What goes around, comes around, although sometimes it takes longer than any of us would like.

You deserve some good luck, and a hot sauna underway MAN!


----------



## seaner97

Wouldn't hurt to have emails or texts back and forth about the repair process as those are still documentation that are less likely to create the litigious environs.


----------



## UnionPacific

I see no difference between them saying "we will take care of it, our fault" and them putting it in writing. It may make them a bit nervous, but to cover your buttox in today's world with something in writing is just intelligence, but then I am from NY, and almost everyone so far in the south has tried to screw me over in some way in business deals since I have arrived. This includes the first sail loft I visited giving me a $150 price, and delivering my sail with a $375 bill when it was done. Guess what, I didnt have the price in writing. 
I would love to take everyone at their word every time, its just not the USA we live in.


----------



## weinie

UnionPacific said:


> I see no difference between them saying "we will take care of it, our fault" and them putting it in writing. It may make them a bit nervous, but to cover your buttox in today's world with something in writing is just intelligence, but then I am from NY, and almost everyone so far in the south has tried to screw me over in some way in business deals since I have arrived. This includes the first sail loft I visited giving me a $150 price, and delivering my sail with a $375 bill when it was done. Guess what, I didnt have the price in writing.
> I would love to take everyone at their word every time, its just not the USA we live in.


Yeah, good luck with getting them to put it in writing.:laugher


----------



## MedSailor

Minnewaska said:


> Classic analogy. It's a keeper.
> 
> Glad it seems much better than you imagined. That yard owes you one and it only starts with their assumption of the warranty.
> 
> Oil analysis are usually a sample, so I'm not sure they are proof of purity in this situation. I would have multiple flushes done, with multiple filter changes and have them all tested. I assume they sent the oil filter too.
> 
> Hope you are on the water forgetting about all of this soon.


Interesting thought about testing the flushes and filters. Once the dust (sand?) has settled a little bit I want to have a sit down talk with them and make a plan whereby I can be confident that the engine I will motor away with is still in top shape. I think I like the idea of testing the filters.

So what would the pilot analogy equivalent be for the news I just go? You're over the pacific, half way to Hawaii and the flight attendant stops serving the food and informs you that you're being hijacked by a bunch of muslim extremists.  Then you open the cockpit door and find that it's really just the Hawaiians saying "Aloha Snackbar!" :laugher

MedSailor


----------



## MedSailor

UnionPacific said:


> If your going to stay with this engine, get a coolant filter to get that sand out of the lines. BTW sand in the coolant is abrasive too.


Perhaps the sand is a good thing and will continually abrade the internal scaling and build up. It's a value-added kind of thing at no extra cost....  Or not. Got any links to coolant filters? I've never heard of one. With the multiple flushes I may not need it, but then again since I do have soft hoses going to my hot water heater it would be quite easy to plumb something in-line.

MedSailor


----------



## UnionPacific

MedSailor said:


> Perhaps the sand is a good thing and will continually abrade the internal scaling and build up. It's a value-added kind of thing at no extra cost....  Or not. Got any links to coolant filters? I've never heard of one. With the multiple flushes I may not need it, but then again since I do have soft hoses going to my hot water heater it would be quite easy to plumb something in-line.
> 
> MedSailor


Coolant filters are a gimmick.... Unless its a rare case like yours.
Your not going to get the sand completely flushed, no matter how much you flush it. Its just going to slowly be released over time. 
Something like this, I am sure you can find a better price.
Amazon.com: 6.0l Ford Powerstroke Coolant Filtration Kit: [email protected]@[email protected]@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41su%[email protected]@[email protected]@41su%2Bu0yfDL
Sand will abrade your waterpump, and eat its seals. I am shocked they didnt cover all the orifices before they blasted.

Head bolts.... Are single use. make sure they use new ones.

No excuse for what happened. I hope they give you a full refund for the work they sort-of did.


----------



## albrazzi

Good find and an Honest yard mechanic. Oil pressure will usually win out against a pressurized cooling system, certainly 80# on a 15# + or - radiator cap. Foam will rise in your coolant tank as long as there is some contamination. A turkey baster in the filler neck (cold motor) will remove better than a flush after a while. Oil analysis and a lot of watching for a few months should clear it all up, at least you have the right attitude and communication between the yard and the builder, and at the end of the day the yard is on the hook. 
Just in time for sailing season..


----------



## MedSailor

A thought just occurred to me. A grain or three of sand won't likely go undetected in the oil because the sand would have had to get there by riding along with the coolant. So if there's no coolant (water) found in the oul I should be in the clear.


----------



## Minnewaska

MedSailor said:


> A thought just occurred to me. A grain or three of sand won't likely go undetected in the oil because the sand would have had to get there by riding along with the coolant. So if there's no coolant (water) found in the oul I should be in the clear.


Not bad logic, but I know I would be flushing and sending analysis for a while anyway.

I'm having a hard time with the rebuild shop's excuse for leaving sand in the exchanger in the first place. Presumably, they are claiming to have sealed the passages on the block, but not on the accessory? Are there other exceptions? Do you have an intercooler or oil cooler? If we don't trust that they properly sealed the block, there would be no way to exclusively contaminate the coolant passage over the oil passages.

Further, the exchanger must have needed to be descaled in the rebuild process. Would they have done that before blasting the paint? If their process intentionally contaminates the interior of the exchanger, you would think the necessary descaling would be done afterward and simultaneously remedy it.

Just offering some food for thought to be sure you track down the whole story, in order to properly address it. I can't get my head around why a rebuild shop would be okay with sand in the closed coolant circuit.


----------



## IStream

Med, I agree that if there's no water in the oil and you never lost oil pressure, you're probably in the clear. That said, I'm mystified as to why any the rebuilder would leave sand anywhere in the engine, cooling loop or otherwise. There's just no good that can come of it and it's so simple to eliminate with compressed air. It's just lazy not to do it.

"You left a sponge in the patient?"
"Don't worry, it was in the small intestine."
"Oh, okay. We can claim it's not in the patient so we're all good."


----------



## Johnniegee

I would fill cylinders with a mixture of ATF and acetone. pour said mixture over thee rocker shaft and let it sit for a while the try to brake it free. Nothing .... repeat If nothing again I would take a rod and tap the pistons and try to brake it free. If it frees up change the oil a few times and thank the boating gods


----------



## MedSailor

Johnniegee said:


> I would fill cylinders with a mixture of ATF and acetone. pour said mixture over thee rocker shaft and let it sit for a while the try to brake it free. Nothing .... repeat If nothing again I would take a rod and tap the pistons and try to brake it free. If it frees up change the oil a few times and thank the boating gods


Thanks for the suggestion. A few months ago we did try that. We even used a sledge to a block of wood trying to free the pistons. No go.


----------



## MedSailor

I got the oil sample back. There is coolant in the oil. So that means there could be sand in the oil. It doesn't necessarily mean there IS sand in the oil, but it if there wasn't water in the oil it would mean I'm in the clear.

Now, the next question, how do I KNOW if there is sand in the oil (carried there by the coolant)? Will sand show up on an oil analysis or not really? If there MIGHT be sand in there should I push to have them pull the motor out of the boat, pull the bottom end and clean it manually, or will the oil filters do their job and filter out any sand that might be in there?

Opinions? If it's only a case of "might be a little sand and it'll get filtered out soon and won't likely destroy things," then that's one thing. If, on the other hand, a few grains will spell death to the bearings of my new engine, that's another. 

Convincing the yard to pull the motor, tear it down, and reinstall it is not going to be a small ask. if I'm going to ask, I want to make sure it really does need to be done, and that I have ammo for the fight. 

If a full tear down isn't necessary I could have my boat in her slip by the weekend.... Whatever the outcome, a bypass oil filter is going on this new puppy. 

MedSailor


----------



## UnionPacific

Pull the pan. sand and debris will be evident in the pan. also pull the filter, and crack it open.


----------



## UnionPacific

Oh, and if the rebuild shop gave you a complete refund, including the install cost, shipping, ect, just leave it and run it 3000 hours, then get it rebuilt again. Its not going to last very long if it started life with sand in the bearings.


----------



## Skipper Jer

What if the oil system is pressurized by an external means? That would circulate the oil through the engine and filter without any pressure on the crankshaft bearings.


----------



## UnionPacific

Captainmeme said:


> What if the oil system is pressurized by an external means? That would circulate the oil through the engine and filter without any pressure on the crankshaft bearings.


Thats not how the oil system works. Works like a bilge pump, that discharges into the main salon, and trickles back into the bilge. :laugher:laugher


----------



## MedSailor

Pulling the pan sounds like a nice idea but involves pulling the engine and putting it back in. Trying to avoid that if I can.


----------



## Minnewaska

A refund of the rebuild cost would be a good approach, then give the flush method a shot. When you need a new rebuild and I'm afraid you will, go elsewhere, for sure.


----------



## UnionPacific

well.... keep a spare oil pump and seals on hand. The oil is now circulated, and what is not in the filter is now in the pan. It goes from the pan, to the oil pump, to the filter. So now its just going to eat your oil pump. You will notice a slow loss of oil pressure over time, it will not fail quickly. Change the oil filter every 20 hours for the first hundred, each time opening the filter, and inspecting the paper filter media. If you not seeing much in the filter, resume normal changes. remember your looking for non-magnetic debris, not metallic. Metallic will always be there, as a normal part of wear for the first 50 hours.

MAKE SURE your oil drain plug has a magnet built in.


----------



## albrazzi

Its a tough spot to be in. Keep in mind the oil goes through the filter first then the bearings, cutting the filter open would be the thing to do. I would at least run and do some oil changes. There IS a warranty so if it runs and cleans up the fluids then I would keep a good eye on the oil pressure. What does your yard guy recommend he's the one on the hook.


----------



## MedSailor

Minnewaska said:


> A refund of the rebuild cost would be a good approach, then give the flush method a shot. When you need a new rebuild and I'm afraid you will, go elsewhere, for sure.


This would be a nice thing if it were to come true, but unfortunately the rebuild company thinks that sand in the cooling system is just fine. The yard clearly hooked things up wrong and now coolant (sand) have been together at the dance without a chaperone. The rebuild company isn't going to own any of that. If I can play this out ahead of time I will say that the rebuild company will call no foul and I'm left trying to ask the yard to spot me the refund on the rebuild cost (10K). Not going to happen. The yard has a very good reputation in my town and they want to keep it, so that's my card. They're going to try and make this right, but they're not going to spot me 10K for the rebuild just to be kind.

If the plan is to go ahead and just see how things go then I'm thinking that I really should bring out my "closet powerboater" side and motor the crap out of this boat for the remainder of the warranty. I'll be sure to wave while under power in perfect sailing conditions for the benefit of flyingwelshman and johnesisberg. If it's time to play hardball, then I need to tell them now that they need to pull the engine and pull the bottom end to make damn sure that there's no sand in the bearings.

In other news, the yard wanted to take my boat out for a 4 hour break in/sea trial today while I was at work. I declined, after seeing the oil sample and wondering about sand in the oil and I told them they could do what they deemed fit at the slip but I would like to be present for the sea trial. I am available tomorrow for the entire day, just name the time I say.

They just emailed me and told me that *they took MY boat out for an hour and everything went great*. If you've never seen Medsailor mad before, you can now say that you have. 


What do you all recommend now? I'm thinking I should go sit down in the reverse-cross-legged-lotus-position on the top of a mountain and meditate with one book in each hand.  In the right I should read The Book of Job and in the left hand I should read Zen and The Art of Diesel Maintenance and Letting Go of the Illusion of Control.  On the other hand, these are minor problems that, knowing the things I know, I feel guilty even having. Perhaps I should just HTFU. I probably should, but right now I AM mad.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACCCCKKKKKKKKKKKK!

FUUUUUUUUUUUUCK!

MedSailor

PS If things are all going great 1 year from today, I promise to mail the booz of your (or my) choice to the first person who best reminds me (my rules, no ref) of all these troubles and helps set me straight with perspective and life and all things that really matter.


----------



## Minnewaska

MedSailor said:


> ......They're going to try and make this right, but they're not going to spot me 10K for the rebuild just to be kind.


Got it. You contracted the rebuild company separately? I was thinking the yard sub contracted the rebuild and you owed the yard. In which case, I would not be paying that tab, until this was fully sorted out. I take it the rebuild shop made you pay before they shipped it back.



> In other news, the yard wanted to take my boat out for a 4 hour break in/sea trial today while I was at work. I declined, after seeing the oil sample and wondering about sand in the oil and I told them they could do what they deemed fit at the slip but I would like to be present for the sea trial. I am available tomorrow for the entire day, just name the time I say.
> 
> They just emailed me and told me that *they took MY boat out for an hour and everything went great*. If you've never seen Medsailor mad before, you can now say that you have.


Okay, I don't know your yard and their real intent. However, that is simply not right. Generously, they may be anxious to get your boat running for you and testing the extent of the damage.

However, that one hour run proved nothing at all. The damage from this scenario is going to be incipient. If they are any good at all, they know that. If there was sand in the bearings, which they can't know, the damage is irreversible now. They may just be trying to document that the motor runs fine. However, that's not the question.

Any way to research whether leaving sand in the coolant passages is commercially reasonable? I'm surprised a motor head around here hasn't been definitive. That may suggest a suit against the rebuild company. An attorney is going to suggest adding the yard to the mix. Plus emotional distress.

You may also be calling your insurance company again. Rest assured, they would aggressively pursue all parties and maybe you should leave it to them. A successful claim doesn't necessarily mean you have to rebuild the motor again immediately.

What a ***** of an ordeal. I feel so badly for all of this.


----------



## UnionPacific

Call a lawyer in the state of the rebuild shop. Screw those monkeys. Get documentation from the yard on the sand. Also out the rebuild shop in public. start a new thread, with name, number, and a warning that they are worthless losers. Not only here, but on SA and CF as well. Let everyone know that in their opinion, sand in the engine is as natural as an unshaven woman. up the pressure, and cut the business to them. I would also recontact your insurance CO, see if they can help with the rebuild shop.


----------



## Faster

MedSailor said:


> ..... I should read The Book of Job and in the left hand I should read ........


Med, no need to read the Book of Job.. I think you've rewritten the first few chapters already yourself.

This is an unbelieveable saga... my heart aches for you with every setback.


----------



## weinie

Call the insurance company and follow up with a letter to document it so at least it is on record. Who actually wrote the check for the rebuild and install, you or the insurance company?


----------



## MedSailor

Minnewaska said:


> Got it. You contracted the rebuild company separately? I was thinking the yard sub contracted the rebuild and you owed the yard. In which case, I would not be paying that tab, until this was fully sorted out. I take it the rebuild shop made you pay before they shipped it back.
> 
> Okay, I don't know your yard and their real intent. However, that is simply not right. Generously, they may be anxious to get your boat running for you and testing the extent of the damage.
> 
> However, that one hour run proved nothing at all. The damage from this scenario is going to be incipient. If they are any good at all, they know that. If there was sand in the bearings, which they can't know, the damage is irreversible now. They may just be trying to document that the motor runs fine. However, that's not the question.
> 
> Any way to research whether leaving sand in the coolant passages is commercially reasonable? I'm surprised a motor head around here hasn't been definitive. That may suggest a suit against the rebuild company. An attorney is going to suggest adding the yard to the mix. Plus emotional distress.
> 
> You may also be calling your insurance company again. Rest assured, they would aggressively pursue all parties and maybe you should leave it to them. A successful claim doesn't necessarily mean you have to rebuild the motor again immediately.
> 
> What a ***** of an ordeal. I feel so badly for all of this.


Actually you're right. The yard subbed out the rebild. Thanks for reminding me of that important fact.


----------



## Minnewaska

Another thought that worked for a yard offense in my past. Not nearly as bad as yours. I told the owner I was going to post my saga on every boating website on the planet, if they didn't make good. All I wanted was a refund of the excess cost of a straightforward repair that cost twice what they quoted. They said 4 to 6 hours, and billed 12. I was going to post the written quote and their bill. I had to pay their minions over a weekend, because they wouldn't launch me without the account being current and there was no one there to debate it with. They literally had me hanging in the slings, waiting to be paid, before splashing.

He sent the refund under the agreement that I not out their name or post the evidence and I havent.


----------



## UnionPacific

MedSailor said:


> Actually you're right. The yard subbed out the rebild. Thanks for reminding me of that important fact.


woah......


----------



## UnionPacific

BTW if they did a 1 hour test, does that mean they reused the head bolts? Like I said before, they are single use, and you will end up with a blown gasket if they were reused.


----------



## capecodda

Minnewaska said:


> Another thought that worked for a yard offense in my past. Not nearly as bad as yours. I told the owner I was going to post my saga on every boating website on the planet, if they didn't make good. All I wanted was a refund of the excess cost of a straightforward repair that cost twice what they quoted. They said 4 to 6 hours, and billed 12. I was going to post the written quote and their bill. I had to pay their minions over a weekend, because they wouldn't launch me without the account being current and there was no one there to debate it with. They literally had me hanging in the slings, waiting to be paid, before splashing.
> 
> He sent the refund under the agreement that I not out their name or post the evidence and I havent.


This is the real incentive for everyone in the business.

And you don't even have to post it. The boating community is so small everyone knows when things go bad, who made it right, and who didn't. If I lived in your neighborhood, and I knew there was a cool boat with a sauna in it, it wouldn't take a lot of work to figure out what yard it was in. And I'd be watching how you were treated to see if I ever wanted to have that yard do anything for me.

So won't everyone else.

On the other side of this, to be fair, I know of yards that have "fired" customers for being unreasonable. From your posts here Med, I am 100% sure you are not being unreasonable, but I do know of boat owners that are.

In the end, this is going to work out. The good guys win, sometimes it just takes longer than you'd hope. Keep smiling if you can


----------



## MedSailor

Minnewaska said:


> Another thought that worked for a yard offense in my past. Not nearly as bad as yours. I told the owner I was going to post my saga on every boating website on the planet, if they didn't make good. All I wanted was a refund of the excess cost of a straightforward repair that cost twice what they quoted. They said 4 to 6 hours, and billed 12. I was going to post the written quote and their bill. I had to pay their minions over a weekend, because they wouldn't launch me without the account being current and there was no one there to debate it with. They literally had me hanging in the slings, waiting to be paid, before splashing.
> 
> He sent the refund under the agreement that I not out their name or post the evidence and I havent.


I do have some leverage, but right now things are quite muddled up from my perspective. I'm not even sure exactly what I want to demand to make things right. I'm not sure that a second rebuild, and months more in the yard, and the potential for more mistakes is what I want. I may have wanted them to pull the motor and the pan, but it seems that ship has sailed.

As for taking the boat out, that just makes me mad and is a trust issue. Not really anything to do there except hopefully apologise and not do it again.

I guess my plan today is to go talk to them and see if they can convince me that they're on the right track here. I'd like to believe they still are, and I actually think they're trying their best to make this right, I just need a little more convincing....

It occurred to me that I should be able to frequently sample my oil and if there is sand and destruction in there, even if I don't see the sand on the analysis I should see increased wear metals. If the wear metal numbers don't go up during my warranty period then maybe I'm okay....

Either way, the sun is out and I'm about to go out for a 4 hour sea trial on my boat. That'll be the longest trip I've had underway so far. Engine issues aside, I'm going to try and enjoy being out on the water on my new boat.

MedSailor


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## UnionPacific

nothing less then a full refund from the yard should be accepted. then figure it out.


----------



## Minnewaska

I do hope you enjoy being out on your boat. You seem to be very level headed here, so I'm sure the excitement won't cloud your judgement. 

Are you willing to share how much of the tab you've oaid so far? More simply, is this a matter of not paying the tab or getting something refunded? They teach you all sorts of UCC and tort law, but it always comes down to who actually has the money.


----------



## MedSailor

I've paid about half of a really big bill. The other half has not been handed over yet. Of note Safeco wanted to pay the yard 100% in advance instead of paying me and my paying the yard. I said no way. I trust the yard but I also wanted to keep my leverage. 

Today's trial was short lived. A coolant leak turned us around. Will try again tomorrow.

In addition I feel incompetent at docking all over again. Will have to learn the ways of the new girl.


----------



## Minnewaska

A coolant leak in a system with sand in it. Come on man!

I did forget that it's insurnace paying. That's complicated, but they may be a real ally.


----------



## UnionPacific

MedSailor said:


> I've paid about half of a really big bill. The other half has not been handed over yet. Of note Safeco wanted to pay the yard 100% in advance instead of paying me and my paying the yard. I said no way. I trust the yard but I also wanted to keep my leverage.
> 
> Today's trial was short lived. A coolant leak turned us around. Will try again tomorrow.
> 
> In addition I feel incompetent at docking all over again. Will have to learn the ways of the new girl.


I would say get it running, and call it even. 50% loss is not that bad. 
When it is time for the next engine call me, I will help you slot in a proper kubota, with a dry exhaust.


----------



## Minnewaska

UnionPacific said:


> I would say get it running, and call it even. 50% loss is not that bad.
> When it is time for the next engine call me, I will help you slot in a proper kubota, with a dry exhaust.


The complicated part is that the insurance company paid for a good overhaul. If you don't get a complete overhaul, because you negotiate to pay half and then have a further loss, insurance will only then pay for a depreciated motor.


----------



## UnionPacific

Minnewaska said:


> The complicated part is that the insurance company paid for a good overhaul. If you don't get a complete overhaul, because you negotiate to pay half and then have a further loss, insurance will only then pay for a depreciated motor.


That may be true. However at this point insurance will not cover the engine when it breaks. Its considered a mechanical failure to have a spun bearing. So he will not be covered if the engine fails due to this incident, unless it fails right away (not likely) I hope they charged him a marina's price for the rebuild, then there is enough money left to replace the engine himself next time.

Coolant leak? from where? Sound like they don't understand anything about engines.


----------



## Minnewaska

Insurance isn't likely to pay him the balance. The checks are typically made out to the insured and the vendor, do the insured can't just pocket the money. Very messy.


----------



## UnionPacific

Minnewaska said:


> Insurance isn't likely to pay him the balance. The checks are typically made out to the insured and the vendor, do the insured can't just pocket the money. Very messy.


some states have an option to get the check in your name, as long as you do not have a lien... I think he said they paid him.


----------



## albrazzi

WOW this just gets better. I would inform the Insurance of everything at the end of the day its their money (arguably but lets not) I can't reread 69 pages but if there is a reason to not have just replaced with a new motor before then surely that's what (I) would do now. I cant second guess you so far only you can do that. Either stay after everything with the yard to keep it running within the warranty period or pull the plug and have the Insurance litigate with the Yard. You mention a coolant leak but no details. 
Its been interesting to follow but I could respectfully suggest you lower the buzz a little with all the comments. No disrespect guys but Med needs to do some soul searching here.


----------



## MedSailor

Details are a little thin because I have food poisoning today. Ick... It really took a lot of the potential fun out of the sea trial. I did make it though, and I didn't even have to christen my new holding tank. 

The coolant leak is not something I'm worried about. This picture is my engine, pre-rebuild. Notice how the water pump has 2 exit ports for the coolant flow? One is in use, the other isn't and is covered by a rubber turquoise plug with a single hose clamp. I noticed this, and photographed it, because it looked like an awful design and a huge failure point. Apparently the rubber cap that they shipped with the rebuilt engine doesn't fit perfectly, combined with it getting some oil on it from all the unpleasantness and combine that with the shiny new paint and it is slipping off and leaking. Shouldn't be hard to fix and doesn't appear related to sand or larger badness. I'm of a mind to attach a blind end pipe fitting and JB weld the crap out of it.










The yard explained further how they've gone to great lengths to make sure that everything was cleaned out of the oil. Before I had a chance to suggest it, they asked if I'd like to be present when they cut open the next oil filter. They've doubled down on their promise that they believe they can make this right and are standing by it and their warranty. They want me to sample the engine oil after the break-in period to be sure that there are no bearing wear metals in the oil.

In addition there a few nagging things left. The rebuild shop sent oil and temp senders designed for one helm station. I have 2, so they're not working. I also noticed a slight weep of diesel at one of the injectors at the pump. Hopefully this is all little stuff, but I'm realizing that with so many things having been touched it's going to be a long time before I really trust this engine.

Tomorrow we go out to sea (to see) again.

MedSailor


----------



## UnionPacific

Thats weird, I have done many injector jobs, none leaked fuel when I was done.
Did you see the engine head bolts issue I mentioned?


----------



## MedSailor

UnionPacific said:


> Thats weird, I have done many injector jobs, none leaked fuel when I was done.
> Did you see the engine head bolts issue I mentioned?


Forgot to ask. I will tomorrow.


----------



## MedSailor

Gather round kids, It's time for this thread's first installment of:

*Some really good news! *

The sea trial went great yesterday and I kidnapped the yard's mechanic, took him along, and wouldn't let him out of the bilge until the entire engine break in procedure was done.

The engine purred like a (large) kitten and we went through all sorts of RPM variations for hours as specified by the rebuild company in order to set the rings and break in the engine. After a successful docking all that is left is an oil change and one last job I specified (putting a ball valve shutoff on the dripless packing water supply) and we're DONE.

Done. Actually Done. I'm in shock and can't believe that we might really be done, but we are. I'm sure when the yard bill is put in front of me that'll be the slap I need to realize that I'm not dreaming.

Regarding recent and outstanding issues:

- The yard is very confident that there is no sand in the oil and never was. It was all explained to me in excruciating detail. The long and the short of it is that they say sand/water never did get into the oil in any significant quantity and they flushed all of it out before the engine was restarted.

This requires some trust to believe, but not total trust, as we're sending off yesterday's oil sample for testing and I'm invited to watch them cut open yesterday's oil filter. In addition, since THEY subbed out the job, AND hooked it up, if I come back while it's under warranty and they weren't found to have cleaned sand that THEY put in the oil, they'll be on the hook for ANOTHER full rebuild. They are happy with this, confident in their work and are willing to honor the warranty. Furthermore, the incipient destruction of the bearings and other bits by undetected sand can't likely go undetected with the frequent oil sampling that I expect to do.

- Coolant leaks. They found a better rubber cap than the one supplied and it has 2 hose clamps. It didn't leak, though I'll be watching it whenever I first try the engine out at WOT.

- Diesel seen near the injector. Didn't re-manifest. It was about 2 drops when I saw it.

- Head bolts. On Lehmans they do not need to be thrown out with each use. The mechanic was aware of this and says it's manufacturer specific. Apparently, just for fun, on newer engines not only do they need to be thrown away, a special $600 wrench is needed to install them as a Torque wrench isn't spec anymore. They did replace my head gasket every time they took the head off (3 times) as this part does have to be replaced every time the head comes off.

-- little stuff. One oil pressure gauge works, the other is dead. It's an off the shelf VDO gauge and I can fix it easily. Temp guages work now. Tach works but the hour meter doesn't turn over. I'll fix all that myself. Several other things don't work, which are mostly a hangover from the Mack Sails damage. Things like the chartplotter/radar GPS, the anemometer, the boat speed paddle wheel etc. They don't bother me right now because my previous boats never had any of these things anyway. I'll fix them as time allows.

--Anti siphon. I'm really glad I installed the new double anti-siphon setup. It still pees out the side but has a backup Scott valve for if it were to get plugged. Appears to be working like a charm.

9+ months after delivery, I'm ready to take her home and park her in my slip. After that, some more proving trips with guy friends and lots of tools aboard before I really feel comfortable enough to take out the family, but that's all now going to happen on my schedule because *I'm finally getting out of the yard! *

Lets go motor-sailing!









MedSailor


----------



## SVTatia

MedSailor said:


> ...Even though she's not a new engine, I swear she has that "new engine smell!" I've never owned an engine with parts that are actually shiny enough to reflect light! :eek: I think I'm going to cry. :D ...[/quote]
> 
> Then you did cry but for the wrong reasons...
> 
> [QUOTE="MedSailor, post: 2655466, member: 149793"]Gather round kids, It's time for this thread's first installment of:
> ...
> Done. Actually Done. I'm in shock and can't believe that we might really be done, but we are. I'm sure when the yard bill is put in front of me that'll be the slap I need to realize that I'm not dreaming.
> [/quote]
> 
> Halleluyah!!! Now you can cry for the right reasons!!
> Way to go .... how many pounds lighter are you now?
> You'r done, but this isn't the end, its the start of a beautiful relationship....:)


----------



## Faster

REALLY good news, finally, great to hear.

Now, about that trip North.....


----------



## djodenda

Wonderful news!

Congratulations!


----------



## TQA

.


----------



## guitarguy56

Excellent news Med... While the saga was like... WOW... glad it's over (not yet) as time will tell... several hundred hours on the engine meter will tell you’re confident to put the tools away... again enjoy the sail and the sauna... Ok... YOU WIN!


----------



## SVTatia

Oh, one more thing Med...
After you come back from an enjoyable sail and sauna, start a new post

I love boats


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## tdw

So do we change the name of the thread .... "Love is in the Air" perhaps ?


----------



## IStream

tdw said:


> So do we change the name of the thread .... "Love is in the Air" perhaps ?


Let's hope it dies a quick death. It's time for a new thread, "Making memories with a Nauticat in the PNW"


----------



## tdw

Med ... would you like this thread closed so you can get on with your ongoing adventures in a new thread ?


----------



## Minnewaska

Cheers Med. Good karma! You earned your success. Here's to many more.


----------



## MedSailor

Fuzzy, 

For superstition's sake lets leave the tale open until after tomorrow's successful delivery. Once I'm tied up in my own slip further (mis?)adventures will be chronicled elsewhere and we can shut this thread down. 

In other happy news the yard has comped me quite a bit of labor charges that took place after their oops. To be clear this is for expected charges in addition to the free charges for fixing their oops. I didn't ask them for it but I sure do appreciate it. 

There was one funny moment when I was handed a warranty form to sign. I was told that the rebuild place gives a 6 month warranty but the yard gives a standard 3 month policy on labor.

When he saw the look on my face he did not even pause for one second and said, "but in your case it'll be 6 months. Let me print you out another form to sign." 

I eould have paid to see the look on my own face just then.  

I think they're a good yard who made an honest mistake and tried realky hard to make it right. I respect that and I don't expect perfect from everybody. Surgeons and pilots, yes, everybody else? No. But if you screw up I really do appreciate it if you genuinely try your best to make it right. 

Medsailor


----------



## Skipper Jer

"Surgeons and pilots, yes, everybody else? No." 

What about nuclear reactor operators? 
Sounds like this is a stand up yard and is a keeper. I think its called.......integrity.


----------



## MedSailor

Delivery successful! The boat is safely tied up in my slip and everything went off without a hitch. 

Some tight docking maneuvers mademe really appreciate this new keel profile and my larger engine and prop. She's wonderfully responsive. 

Friends family and rum capped off the event. A good time was had by all. 

Mods feel free to lock down the thread. This chapter is over. New happier chapters are now to be written!

Medsailor


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## tdw

MedSailor said:


> Delivery successful! The boat is safely tied up in my slip and everything went off without a hitch.
> 
> Some tight docking maneuvers mademe really appreciate this new keel profile and my larger engine and prop. She's wonderfully responsive.
> 
> Friends family and rum capped off the event. A good time was had by all.
> 
> Mods feel free to lock down the thread. This chapter is over. New happier chapters are now to be written!
> 
> Medsailor


Consider it done. Now for the good times.


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