# Easiest State Registration - Non-HIN ?



## kaakre (Oct 19, 2006)

Ok its a long story--- but I am wondering if there is a state that will register a boat to a non-resident without a HIN. Also, while I am at it - no taxes beyond registration.

It is a 1972 56 foot ketch that has never been registered in or entered the US. I have a valid bill of sale and am a US citizen.

Also, How can I apply for a HIN to import a boat? Is there a USCG form for this? Is an inspection always required?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

HIN's weren't required until 1977 or so, so the fact that your boat does not have one shouldn't be much of an issue. Most states have some sort of excise or personal property tax for boats. USCG documentation is also an option, and may be cheaper in the long run than state registration, and in many states if the boat is USCG documented, they will waive the need to state register the boat. USCG documentation is a one-time fee, rather than an annual fee. In Massachusetts, you break even after only five or six years IIRC. 

Are you planning on going to Canada, Mexico, the Caribbean or Bahamas in your boat. If so, you will probably want to get USCG documentation instead, as it has some serious benefits when sailing in foreign waters. Some countries will not recognize a state registration as a valid form since states are not sovereign nations, but merely subdivisions of the USA. USCG documented vessels are flagged vessels of the US and have diplomatic, legal and financial considerations and protections that aren't given to state-registered vessels.


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## kaakre (Oct 19, 2006)

I agree with most of Sailingdogs post regarding state versus USCG documentation. Some more info:

The boat is in South America and is registered in Europe. USCG documentation requires, among other things, a certificate of removal from the foreign registry as a condition precedent to the US documentation application. Obviously obtaining this document and getting through the USCG documentation process will take 3 months or more. But USCG documentation is my goal.

The only way that I can come up to avoid three months on a "boat without a country" in a bad environment is to do a registration in a US state. This is in spite of the fact that the boat may never enter US waters. When the US documentation shows up we celebrate, but in the meantime we need to sail North with something. Forgery?

HIN's in the US were implemented in 1972, are 12 digit and are required by most state bureaucrats and their boat registration software. It is a BIG deal in most states. Show up without one and they choke. If you know of one that doesn't care I would like to know.

Keith


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Get state documentation if you want to... IIRC, if you've applied for USCG documentation, you should be able to sail the vessel back, even if the USCG documentation hasn't gone through. I sailed my boat for a month, and was stopped by the USCG and it wasn't an issue. I had a copy of all the sale paperwork as well as a copy of my USCG documentation application with me and explained that while I had applied for USCG documentation, it had not been processed as of yet. They said it was fine, especially since I had all the required safety gear.

Of course, you should probably consult with an attorney that specializes in marine law for specifics. Going with a forgery is a really bad idea, especially in the much more paranoid post-9/11 USA that exists today.


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## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

kaakre,

think about what you're asking...

"is there a state that doesn't care about..."
a)sales tax revenue
b) if the boat you're trying to title is actually yours or not...
c) doesn't care if you actually reside there. 

Lets see if this flies....

Lets say that I live in Toadsuck, Arkansas, and show up in Tallahassee one day and say... "I've got this boat, right here, lookie this, ain't she pretty?, can I register it in your great state?

state worker: "sure, whats your address here in florida?"
me: "uhhh, I don't live here"
state worker: "ok, show me the title for the boat"
me: "uhhh, I haven't got one, but heres this wonderful bill of sale that I got in a South American country, oh btw, its currently registered in france, you read french don't ya?" 

state worker: "So, bub,you don't live here, and tell me how I should know that the bill of sale wasn't made up on a pc using notepad and printer yesterday? and I don't give a tinkers da** about those frenchies.... what...? 'cuz you say so? 
oh, yea, that'll work... NEXT!" 
wait... no... "LUNCH!!!"

let me know how that all works out for ya...


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## kaakre (Oct 19, 2006)

*Toadsuck Cardaic*

Hey there Cardiac,

Some answers for the boy from Toadsuck:

A) Most states do not tax boat sales between individuals. Resident applicant or non-resident
B) A notarized/certified bill of sale is required anywhere you go- resident or non-resident
C) Believe it or not-- all states register boats for non-residents but the requirements vary

At any rate now that we have finished our lesson in the basics--thanks for your help!

Guys like you provide a wealth of help and inspiration. Thats what these forums are for and we appreciate your assistance.


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## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

If its going to have any type of a state registration, you can bet, that state is going to collect a fee.... be it named registration, casual sale of a motor vehicle, if its commerece, the state is going to get a cut. 

notary... most of those are in the "states"... if you already have a bill of sale, is it notorized by a recognised US entity? 
think about it, you show up with a piece of paper from another country, with some seal on it, how does the state recognise it as valid? 

as far as registering it cross state.... operative word... STATE... and you better have a title. not a bill of sale. 

thems the basics


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Most states have excise tax or personal property tax of some sort for boats.


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## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

florida:

Use Tax 
Use tax is a component of Florida's sales and use tax law. Use tax applies to taxable goods and services that are brought into the state untaxed or taxed at a rate less than Florida's 6 percent rate. Discretionary sales surtax is also due on the first $5,000 of these purchases. 
The "use" component of Florida's sales and use tax law provides uniform taxation of items purchased outside Florida but stored or used in this state. A credit for lawfully imposed taxes paid to another state, a U.S. territory, or the District of Columbia is permitted. Credit is not given for taxes paid to another country. 
Example: If a boat is purchased in a state that has a sales tax rate of 4 percent, the owner may be required to pay an additional 2 percent when the boat is brought into Florida. 
Under most conditions, use tax is due on boats brought into Florida within 6 months from the date of purchase. However, use tax may be due immediately upon importation into Florida, under either of the following conditions: 
The boat is owned by a Florida resident. 
The boat is owned by a corporation and used by a corporate officer or director who is a Florida resident or who owns, controls, or manages a dwelling in Florida.

texas:
Attention All Documented Vessel Owners

Effective January 1st, 2004 all recreational vessels, shrimp boats and commercial fishing boats 115' or less in length, operating on Texas waters are required to be registered with the Sate of Texas.

If the vessel continues to be documented, the Texas registration "decal" must be attached and displayed in the appropriate place on the vessel. The Texas Registration number does not have to be attached and displayed on the vessel.

The Texas House Bill 2926, Legislative Session (78)R passed the House and Senate and was signed by the Governor of Texas June 20, 2003. The legislation took effect September 1, 2003, however, the legislation allowed the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department time to develop implementing instructions, procedures, update computer systems, etc.

Section 14(a) states "Not later than January 1, 2004, the Parks & Wildlife Commission shall adopt any rules necessary to implement this Act."

An application must be made and the appropriate two-year Texas registration fee must be paid for the documented vessel. Vessel/Boat Application for Texas Certificate of Title & Registration can be found at http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/boat/pwd143.pdf

(You may need to copy and paste this address)

For a listing of Registration offices go to http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/boat/boatlist.phtml

A Bill of Sale that includes the sales tax paid or other acceptable tax document indicating that a sales tax has been paid on the vessel is required at time of application, along with a copy of the current USCG Documentation Certificate and registration fee.

If sales tax has not been paid, a Bill of Sale or invoice showing date of sale, sales price, description of vessel and/or outboard motor (make, TX or serial number and year built), purchaser(s) name and seller(s) signature is also required.

need more?

Louisiana: Any boat bought from another state and brought into Louisiana has to have sales tax paid on it to a state tax collector. You must send this in along with the original notarized bill of sale and proof of registration from the previous state showing the person you bought the boat from as the previous registered owner and a registration application along with the proper fees.
New Application
Proof of ownership - a copy of invoice from dealer or manufacturer's statement of origin. Proof of state and local taxes paid must be evident on the invoice, or application must be accompanied by an original Tax Certification Form (R-1331), signed and stamped by local tax office and Louisiana Department of Revenue and Taxation.

Boats coming into Louisiana from another state must have the out-of-state registration or title, invoice from dealer, or a notarized bill of sale with raised seal. In addition, if the boat is 10 or less years old, a completed original Tax Certification Form R-1331 is required. If out-of-state registration/title is not available, a certified original letter from the state that the boat is leaving acknowledging the status of the boat or documentation of origination of the boat is required.

Homemade boats without a Hull Identification Number (HIN) that are applying for new registration must go through INSPECTION. A registration application and an inspection application are required. Original receipts for materials indicating taxes paid must be provided at the time of inspection. Applicants for inspection of boats other than homemade must provide proof of ownership and a notarized affidavit of history of the boat at the time of inspection. DO NOT SEND ORIGINAL RECEIPTS WITH INSPECTION APPLICATION. THEY MUST BE PRESENTED TO THE AGENT AT THE TIME OF INSPECTION.

I'm tired...


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Paul
visiting boats also have to be registered with Texas ?? Or are boats registered in other states and based there exempt ? How do they base fees ? Percentage of boat value or a flat fee per foot ? 

Next question, of NC, TX, which is the most 'boat friendly ' ? I have noted from others much more reasonable slip and mooring fees in TX. Although I could live at what I've been quoted in NC. 

I'm just looking for a boat friendly state to base out of and to refuel/refit in.


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## kaakre (Oct 19, 2006)

Too long to read. What about the other 47?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Kaakre-

If you're too lazy to read what people are posting, in an effort to help you... I don't think many will continue to try to help you. BTW, a little work on google would get you the information you need, but apparently you aren't capable of thinking/researching for yourself. UGH...


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## kaakre (Oct 19, 2006)

*Cardiac*

OK Cardiac,

That's 3 states down and 47 to go.

The question was -- does anyone out there know the best state for such a transaction. If you don't have anything to add, then a simple "no" is fine. Blathering on about the reasons it won't work in one place or another near Toadsuck is not useful to me.

BTW-- Delaware appears to be the current leader for non-resident state registration at about $250 a year (based on a three year payment) with no tonnage survey required and a one week cycle.
Not sure of tax issues yet. See www.offshoregate.com


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

BTW, Massachusetts is $80 for two years for boat registration. Don't believe there are any survey requirements. Tax issues are based on which city you have the boat registered in.


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## kaakre (Oct 19, 2006)

*Thank You*

Thank you Sailingdog.

I will look into MA.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

BTW, if you're anchored in Boston Harbor, they have some odious enforcement tactics...including a new harbor registration sticker... and large fines for violations.


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## kaakre (Oct 19, 2006)

*Sailing dog*

No-- at this point I am trying to stay between 30 degrees North and 30 South. Too many years in MN!

However, my daughter is interviewing in Boston next week so I may be instructed to head North if she gets the job.

Goal is to get to Puerto Vallarta if I can get the deal worked out.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I know it feels like the only reason the government has the registration/documentation process in place is to collect money from us, and mostly it has ended up that way.

But, the optimistic side of me hopes that by filling out the endless pages of forms and paying the various fees that the system stops the transfer and use of stolen property.

Everyone can understand the situation where you don't have one or two of all the requirements...but when someone has NONE of the requirements...it doesn't pass the smell test.


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## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

Jake, if your out of state reg is current you're fine here (I think if its going to "stay" you need to do the texas dance, ymmv) & its based on length.

the "regs" keep the honest people honest. 
The following has happened more times than the states or insurance companies care to admit.

A stolen boat has the HIN numbers ground off, repainted, and registered as a "home built". What about VIN Numbers for the engine? -no big deal, a GM 350 targetmaster "crate" motor has nice ones that can be used. With "fresh" documentation, the boat can then be sold.

Kaarke, its not my fault that you have an undocumented hole in the water. You're the one that asked for help, sorry you don't like the answers... 
Delaware...
http://www.fw.delaware.gov/NR/rdonl...7-B06D79A2AFCA/0/D19701DEBoatRegistration.pdf
please note page one, item 6.

Perhaps you should have done your due diligence before you paid the nice man.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Doing due diligence is good idea...but too many don't do their homework. 

Of course, the boat being in a foreign country, and being registered and flagged in a different foreign country, is definitely going to make the paperwork far more complicated. But that was a choice Kaarke made in buying in Brazil and buying French flagged vessel. *IMHO, he should have hired an attorney that is knowledgeable about the laws in whatever state he plans on registering the boat to help with the purchase and paperwork. *Since, it appears, he doesn't even know what state he is going to register the boat in, that obviously wasn't possible. Taking shortcuts on something like the purchase of a large sailboat is a good way to get screwed.


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## catamount (Sep 8, 2002)

Kaarke,

you can get state-by-state summaries of registration and tax information from the BoatUS website here: http://www.boatus.com/gov/state_info.htm

I suggest New Hampshire -- no sales tax, no personal property tax on boats, no titles on boats (just proof of ownership such as bill of sale)...

The Bureau of Marine Patrol, part of the Division of Motor Vehicles in the Department of Safety, handles boat registrations: http://www.nh.gov/safety/divisions/ss/marinepatrol/faq.html#boatreg

Good Luck,


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## kaakre (Oct 19, 2006)

*Catamount*

Thank you Catamount.


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