# C&C 34+ or CS 34 or CS 36



## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

I'm starting to shop and these two boats are on my short list.

I'm hoping to grab someones attention who is thinking of selling but not involved with a broker yet.

The draft needs to be near 5 feet.

The CS must have the sugar scoop transom.

The boat must be located someplace between the Chesapeake and Maine, on the East Coast.

Thanks!

Edit: CS 36, typo on the subject line (should not read "S 36" maybe a moderator can correct that?).


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Corrected..and a clarification needed.. CS 36T or CS36 Merlin? Both great boats but quite different, and both represented here by various SNers so you should get good feedback.

Of the three IMO the C&C34+ (as you know, a 36 footer) is the 'sexiest' of the trio. If it has the same huge galley sink as the 110/115 that seems a water hog to me. Interesting layout and, for you, a continuation of brand loyalty.

I've always found the CS 34 somewhat awkward looking (talking row-away factor). The house runs a bit too far forward for my eye but I imagine there are benefits below from that. I've not been aboard one myself.

The two 36s both have pretty good reps, I think the Wall designed 36T is one of the most robust fin keel/spade rudder boats every built. Assuming CS maintained quality, the Merlin ought to be faster, but as good a boat. I don't think I've ever met or talked to an unsatisfied CS owner. The Merlin's double aft berth will be an advantage, while it's galley is a bit of a tunnel. I suspect the 36T's near vertical companionway ladder might be a bit of a shin buster but other than that she's beautifully tooled and finished below.

Nice dilemma to have!!


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## Tanski (May 28, 2015)

Love C&C boats, own an older one. Balsa cored hull of the 34 kind of scares me off. Sucks because I really like both the 34 and 37. Have since I was on one of the first 37s at the Toronto boat show back in the 80's.
Not sure if it is much of an issue having a cored hull or not, seen what happens to the decks......have a small spot to repair this spring on the cockpit floor where the manual bilge pump is/was.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

I think wet hull core is much less an issue than decks, though it does happen. Generally hull penetrations are well known in advance and a good builder will avoid using core in those areas.. and once done, they are rarely modified, moved or added to. Deck hardware is often moved around or added over the years so the odds on compromising the core are higher.

That said, I do know of a Buccaneer 305 that had such a saturated core in the hull that a drilled drain hole ran water for weeks. Apparently the area around some hull ports was not adequately sealed. Would not expect that kind of issue with established brands like C&C or CS.


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## Tanski (May 28, 2015)

Sailed on dozens of C&Cs, live in the land of C&C they were built about an hour from me. Never seen a completely dry one.
Back in the day I was through their factory a number of times, part of the reason I like them, I've seen them being built.
I HOPE you are right about the hulls. Beautiful boats, be a shame to see them being scrapped due to moisture.
So much more character than the modern cookie cutter design boats.


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

I was under the impression that only the 36 Merlin had a step in the transom, but perhaps I'm mistaken. 

I spend a lot of time on my mooring so the step transom is important to me. 

As for the cored hulls, a thorough survey should find any issues. Those boats were built 20+ years ago so I figure if it ain't happened by now it probably won't.

My current boat is a C&C 30 MKII, my previous boat was a C&C 30 MKI, I must be part Canadian.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

RobGallagher said:


> I was under the impression that only the 36 Merlin had a step in the transom, but perhaps I'm mistaken.


You are correct - in that the CS36T does not have a transom step. But not ALL Merlins do either. It was a change down the production line. Not sure at what hull number.



RobGallagher said:


> ..... I must be part Canadian.


Nothing wrong with that, eh??


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

According to sailboatdata.com the Merlins were made to order with a choice of transom.


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

I wouldn't let a balsa hull scare you away. If they're dry and you don't do something to change that situation it should stay dry. And, if there is some moisture it can be repaired, vacuum bagging has changed the repair industry in a positive way. We like c&c's, they are nice boats and if you can find a Bruckman built boat you've essentially purchased a custom stick built boat. But the cs boats are very good boats to, excellent construction, better then production c&c I believe.


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

Shockwave said:


> I wouldn't let a balsa hull scare you away. If they're dry and you don't do something to change that situation it should stay dry. And, if there is some moisture it can be repaired, vacuum bagging has changed the repair industry in a positive way. We like c&c's, they are nice boats and if you can find a Bruckman built boat you've essentially purchased a custom stick built boat. But the cs boats are very good boats to, excellent construction, better then production c&c I believe.


Agree about the cored hulls. My 30MKII has a cored hull and it surveyed well.

As for the Bruckman Yachts, unfortunately, I think they might be out of my price range.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Here's a Bruckman built C&C that's not going to be out of your range too much, if at all...

1988 C & C Northeast 39 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Faster said:


> Here's a Bruckman built C&C that's not going to be out of your range too much, if at all...
> 
> 1988 C & C Northeast 39 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com


That spot pictured on the starboard side of the hull would bother me.

I looked at a Pearson 34-2 (a loong time ago) that had a spot that scared me away from balsa cored hulls. That spot looked like this:








A triangular area, with the pictured spot at the apex, between the spot to the keel pegged my moisture meter.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

RobGallagher said:


> The CS must have the sugar scoop transom.


IIRC only a small percentage of later 36 Merlins were built with a sugar scoop..


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Maine Sail said:


> IIRC only a small percentage of later 36 Merlins were built with a sugar scoop..


.. and IIRC it still required climbing the transom to get into the cockpit.


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

Faster said:


> Corrected..and a clarification needed.. CS 36T or CS36 Merlin? Both great boats but quite different, and both represented here by various SNers so you should get good feedback.
> 
> Of the three IMO the C&C34+ (as you know, a 36 footer) is the 'sexiest' of the trio. If it has the same huge galley sink as the 110/115 that seems a water hog to me. Interesting layout and, for you, a continuation of brand loyalty.
> 
> ...


You get used to kind of turning sideways to decend, just cant walk down like you would a regular marine stairs. I'm still unleashing all the potential of my 30 a Castro design quite similar the Merlin. You will not find an easier engine access than in my Boat. The bigger one not so much, but that's typical if sail design.


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## djodenda (Mar 4, 2006)

My Merlin is cored about the waterline only, which I think was standard. My transom has steps, but it's pretty narrow, and not what I would call "Sugar Scoop"

All being said, I do like my Merlin very much.


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## fast2tack (Jan 2, 2013)

There is more to the Merlin then transom choice.
Keel choice, transom style and to me more importantly the companionway style.
There are two styles.
Single staircase vs. 2 stage stairs with removable engine cover.
I would highly recommend the 2 stage stair set up. It allows for better engine access and opens up the galley.
Finding BOTH the preferable companionway and the Sugar scoop transom is going to be difficult.

Owned both C & C 30 and CS 36T 
Worked at the CS Yachts factory building 33's and 36's 
Lots of experience with C & C in the 1980's

The CS 36 Traditional is the better boat choice in my biased opinion.
Not even close.
Build quality, design and sailing "personality".
The Castro designed Merlin might look more modern and contemporary but it isn't the boat the "T" is.
However the Westerbeke mounted backwards with a V-Drive transmission and tight working space is a drawback of the "T".

Always had difficulty with the 34, (as mentioned previously in this post) the cabin top and deck look too big for the boat. The foredeck is too small and there are some ergonomic challenges moving around down below.

All good boats but the CS 36 T is the better boat.


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

Transom boarding has become a 'thing' for me. My boat is on a mooring and I spend 2-3 nights a week in season, schlepping people and loads stuff back and forth. My C&C30 MKII is a pleasure to load and unload with the fold down transom. It would be hard for me to go back to climbing aboard instead of stepping. Not to mention the whole sailing thing.

And I've fallen in love with the aft cabin set up for sleeping. I really want to stay in the C&C family, but the 36 Merlin seems like a good trade off if I can't find the right 34+

Nothing wrong with the Catalinas or Bennies, but to me it's just does not feel the same.


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## PaulinVictoria (Aug 23, 2009)

If you want to donate (and ship) your 30mkII, I know someone who'd love one


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

PaulinVictoria said:


> If you want to donate (and ship) your 30mkII, I know someone who'd love one


You would not like it, because it has a white hull!


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

Faster said:


> Here's a Bruckman built C&C that's not going to be out of your range too much, if at all...
> 
> 1988 C & C Northeast 39 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com


That is one sexy beast. Unfortunately, the draft is too deep for my mooring 

I have to stay at just about 5 ft or start paying for a rental.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

RobGallagher said:


> That is one sexy beast. Unfortunately, the draft is too deep for my mooring
> 
> I have to stay at just about 5 ft or start paying for a rental.


Small price to pay for sexy!


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## PaulinVictoria (Aug 23, 2009)

miatapaul said:


> You would not like it, because it has a white hull!


They make paint in orange.... :wink


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## sailordave (Jun 26, 2001)

Faster said:


> The two 36s both have pretty good reps, I think the Wall designed 36T is one of the most robust fin keel/spade rudder boats every built. Assuming CS maintained quality, the Merlin ought to be faster, but as good a boat. I don't think I've ever met or talked to an unsatisfied CS owner. The Merlin's double aft berth will be an advantage, while it's galley is a bit of a tunnel. I suspect the 36T's near vertical companionway ladder might be a bit of a shin buster but other than that she's beautifully tooled and finished below.
> 
> Nice dilemma to have!!


I've got a Merlin w/ the deep keel and I'm on the Chesapeake. Yeah, it cuts down on some places I can go but it's great for going to windward! AFA the galley being a tunnel... I (and the Admiral) like it. It's out of the way, and offshore you're very protected and secure. You DON'T get tossed around because you can brace yourself. 
Boat is fairly fast; I made it from Newport to Bermuda in the BDA 1-2 this year in 96 hours. Granted we had a NE wind but I've only ever made it faster in a 44' boat w/ a full crew. And it handled the confused seas and 40+ knots of wind from the remnants of TS BILL quite well thank you very much. I routinely singlehand it w/ ease and Admiral and I double hand for races and placed every time this past season.

The cored hull is only above the waterline and I've had no issues. Toerail and hardware is bedded w/ Butyl Tape which MAINESAIL can tell you more about. I removed the winch bases and it was still gooey after 25 years. I like the consistency of the single ladder companionway but can see the benefit of the two place ladder. That mod actually came about as I understand it because of a warranty engine replacement.

All in all you wouldn't go wrong w/ a Merlin. the ONLY drawback I can see is a lack of storage if you were going to do extended cruising. If you're putting into port every week or less, no problem.

DIANTHUS


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## fast2tack (Jan 2, 2013)

Other things to look for on a Merlin......

One of the idiosyncrasies to look for on the Merlin:
Check the starboard side bunk in the Salon, lift the cushion and check the fiberglass for a crack that starts at the mast step and migrates right through the starboard side and up the bunk.

The pan construction can create pressure from the mast step that migrates up the starboard side and manifests in a large crack that cover 2-3 feet. It especially noticeable on the cut outs for the tank access. I have seen it numerous times!

On one boat the owner told me that it was from over filling the water tanks! which is not very likely..actually impossible.
He was convinced because his neighbor with the identical boat (Merlin) had the same crack (because they suffered the same design flaw).
In reality the pressure of the mast step on the inner liner (pan) dissipated through the bunk/seat and cracked the fiberglass.
This is not a fatal flaw and could be cosmetically repaired but it is an Achilles heel of the construction.

I like the boat just have a critical eye when I look at boats.


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## fast2tack (Jan 2, 2013)

In response to a previous post that stated "The Merlins were built to a higher standard than the CS36T"

My response was;

"I respectfully disagree.

The Traditional is a better built boat.
The "t" has a solid glass "overbuilt" hull and the Merlin has a cored hull. Although cored might be lighter and possibly stronger when new....I prefer the solid glass hull of the "T" on a 30-35 year old boat.

All the options in the world don't make the Merlin a better built vessel.

I worked at CS yachts in the early 80's, in all facets of production, sales and commissioning.
The CS 36 Traditional's were well built and some of the best of Canadian boat building of the era. The Traditional has a loyal following and although they are over 30 years old, have held their value and the reputation as a above average "blue water" vessel.

Delivered them on both coasts and they are a pleasure to sail.

The Merlin is a whole other "animal".

Raymond Wall design (Trad.) of Camper & Nicholson fame vs. Tony Castro design (Merlin). The Merlin is a "pan" boat and has had problems with "shifting" or "cracking" as a result of the mast "butt" stressing the pan and it manifests in a nice crack on the starboard salon settee bunk. Just lift up the cushion and most have some signs of stress or complete failure in that area.

Of note is the fact that Merlin's are now priced the same as Traditionals in the current market. Back in 2008 Merlins were selling for close to a $100K in the last 5 years they have dropped down to around $60K the same as a well equipped CS 36 Traditional.

The Merlin offers a "euro" look and an interior closer to what the market is currently looking for BUT the Traditional is a better built boat.....hands down."


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

Interesting viewpoints. Thanks for the replies. And it's nice to see that CS followers are as fanatical as C&C fans.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

fast2tack said:


> The Merlin offers a "euro" look and an interior closer to what the market is currently looking for BUT *the Traditional is a better built boat.....hands down.*"


As one who physically crawls around boats for a living I get to see how all these boats are built. I have also owned a Cape Dory, multiple Catalina's and grew up sailing on a Hinckley, Tartan & Sabre among others. I would say the 36T, is in many areas, concerning construction, is actually better than the Hinckley. Having sailed many, many hundreds of boats the 36T sails like a dream. Straight tracking, excellent sea comfort balances with ease and for her weight has an excellent turn of speed.

She eclipses just about every boat I have worked on in terms of hull construction. IMHO the 36T is one of the most robustly constructed productions sailboats ever built and she also has excellent tankage for her size with a 100 gallons of water, 42 gallons of fuel and a 38 gallon holding tank. Many reviews get the tankage incorrect as she is rated in imperial gallons not US gallons.. She really is the proverbial _brick $hit house_.

That said, regarding hull construction, the ports, plumbing, seacocks and electrical systems on these boats SUCKED though I suppose not much worse than all the others of the vintage. I am also not a big fan of aluminum *LIFE*line stanchion bases and I have upgraded ours to a custom designed SS stanchion base...

I still like the Merlin, and all CS boats, but I agree with the construction differences. Ray designed the 36T like it was going to be sailing the North Sea 24/7/365..... Since buying the 36T I don't even glance at other boats because I know how they are built compared to the 36T.......:wink

P.S. A good friend who has Sabre figuratively _tattooed on his butt_ was over at the house one day _talking up his Sabre's construction_. I happened to have a lot of the interior out of our 36T during the re-wire and we went out to the boat. He left her with his tail between his legs.. He was jaw on the floor _shocked_ at the level of construction compared to his Sabre 34.. Not that the Sabre is bad at all, they are quite well built, but it is just _not _ at the level of a 36T...:wink


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## fast2tack (Jan 2, 2013)

Maine Sail said:


> That said, regarding hull construction, the ports, plumbing, seacocks and electrical systems on these boats SUCKED though I suppose not much worse than all the others of the vintage.


That reminds me!

The wiring used on the CS36T was not ideal or the correct choice.
Still a great boat.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

fast2tack said:


> That reminds me!
> 
> The wiring used on the CS36T was not ideal or the correct choice.
> Still a great boat.


Don't worry I have yet to come across a single production boat from the 70's or 80's with what I would consider a _well executed_ electrical system...


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## fast2tack (Jan 2, 2013)

I remember working on a CS36T with a household outlet (non marine, ferrous metal) in the lazarette with an automotive battery charger plugged in and wired to the batteries. It hung on some household strapping (rocked on every wave) and I couldn't believe it was still working after 30 years and a lot of rust.

Not a factory install. Still hasn't caught fire and I still see her sailing every summer....yikes!


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

> That said, regarding hull construction, the ports, plumbing, seacocks and electrical systems on these boats SUCKED though I suppose not much worse than all the others of the vintage. I am also not a big fan of aluminum *LIFE*line stanchion bases and I have upgraded ours to a custom designed SS stanchion base...


Same story with the Vented loops, my 30 had the loop on the wrong side of the head pump, and although removed now it looks like the Engine was the same way. The vacuum break is through a pisser coming off the thermostat housing and not completely trusting that (its probably OK) I put a shut-off Valve on the intake and hang the key from the valve handle.
This is the first boat I've seen with the shore power in the anchor well, the Surveyor didn't like it he said it was a "wet" location certainly no more wet than outside and aside from the length of conductors I like it (Bow in anyway) I know its not to current codes for overload protection.


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