# First boat: Cal 2-27, Pearson 28 or Islander 28?



## kotyara (Oct 28, 2012)

Hi all,

I've been bitten by the sailing bug a couple of month ago and since then I've been lurking through this forum dreaming about buying my own boat. Well, now I'm getting more serious about it and spent the weekend visiting various boats up for sale, and I would very much appreciate some help picking the right one. 

Here's what I'm looking for in a boat:
- Easy to learn on, easy to singlehand. From what I gathered here and on other forums, that means 30' or less with moderate displacement and good maners (not overly twitchy or tippy).
- Should be fast enough to be fun on SF Bay. Some racing is definitely on the agenda, but will probably need to get some experience first 
- Should be able to get out of the Gate for day or two and be capable of handling bad weather to some degree. I don't plan on going on month-long cruises, but short trips to Half-Moon Bay, Santa Cruz or Monterey should be doable.

Now, here're the boats I'm seriously considering at this point:
- Cal 2-27 (don't know the exact year, they don't have complete paperwork yet). 
The cleanest of the lot, inside and out, really spotless as far as my layman eye can tell. Nice ST winches for the jib, 4 secondaries, all lines aft, 2-3 jibs (foil type), spinnaker. Looks like the owner maintained her really well. Apparently, he raced regularly. Inboard engine is a Farymann 1-cyl, reportedly has a blown head gasket and not running. Boatyard quoted $3K to fix it. But, for an extra $900 they'll throw in a 2006 Honda 8hp and mounting plate. 

- '77 Pearson 28
Looks roomier than the Cal, but not by much. Not as clean, but definitely not neglected. Hardware looks much more "used". Roller jib. 2 jibs, no spin. But, has a running Atomic 4 that the owner starts up every week. Sounded good, if a bit louder than I'd expected, but then I've never heard them run before. The owners never raced it, just cruised around a fair bit.

- '82 Islander Bahama 28
In decent shape, but has that air of being well used and being maintained just enough to be respectable. Has a Yanmar 2GM20, big plus, but costs $3K more than the Cal. Has an awful name that I would definitely need to change, which brings all the superstitions into play. By the numbers it looks like this will be the least stable boat of the three, but I could be way off on that point.

Cal is $4K (with the outboard), Pearson $5K and Islander is $7-7.5K

What are your thoughts? How do they compare purely on sailing characteristics? Which one would be the fastest, the most stable? How significant is outboard vs. inboard? Any potential problems to look out for, weak areas? I am definitely going to do a survey, but never hurts to know more...

At this point, I'm leaning towards the Cal, simply because it's by far the cleanest of the bunch. I am a little weary of the outboard, but then it might give me a chance to fool around with electric propulsion... or learn how to fix diesels  Atomic 4 would've been nicer there, with the parts and support readily available. Yanmar is the main reason I'm considering the Islander, as the boat seems somewhat less seaworthy then the other two, but I'm basing this on second/third hand information, so...

I also looked at a Cal 3-30, but it sat in the water for 4 days so needed a lot of work, and an Ericson 29, which was not very well maintained.

Cheers,
Alex.


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## svHyLyte (Nov 13, 2008)

I cannot comment of the Pearson although they were reportedly good yachts. I have sailed on both the Cal 2-27 and the Islander 28. The Islander was a somewhat more costly yacht at the outset than the Cal with quite nice finishes and more elaborate detailing. That said, however, the Cal was quite well built and in similar conditions, sailing out of Sausalito, Ca., we found the Cal a somewhat better sailor. Both yachts performed well however, so I think it is more a question of how well the boats were maintained and are equipped. (For what it's worth, we purchased and sailed a Cal 2-29, the big sister of the 2-27 for 20+ years. Great boats.)

Good luck...


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## ECS-IB30 (Oct 24, 2011)

If the Islander 28 is anything like the Islander 30, which I would guess it is, you'll find it easy to work on. Mine has been a pleasure to work on, and though I have not sailed her yet, I did motor it across the bay (Chesapeake) using the emergency tiller and she responded well in both forward and reverse - a friend has a Pearson, and the IB30 is broader with more room below - which I prefer. Have not had any experience with Cals, so cannot comment there - but it comes down to what you like!


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## emoney (Jun 2, 2010)

Neighbor has the Islander 28 and it's a really nice boat. Having said that, current condition and PO's schedule of maintenance is key here. I, for one, think there's a very large difference in the motoring performance of an outboard and an inboard. I've had both and can say a diesel inboard was much better suited for my uses, which entails about a 2 mile motor out before I can really hoist the sails. Also, roller furling up front is VERY much worth the extra $$. It just makes things a lot simpler, especially if you plan to do any solo sailing.

Most important, however, should be what's the real price for all 3 of these boats? You may be very surprised how much difference there is between "asking" and actual sale price. If that Islander can come down closer to the other 2, then your decision may get a lot easier. I'd go look at all 3 boats, let each owner know that you're a serious and qualified buyer (assuming you are, of course) and prepared to buy one of them, but you're looking for the best value. Get all 3 final prices, and then come back and share with us where you are then. Pics of all 3 wouldn't hurt either.


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## kotyara (Oct 28, 2012)

Thanks a bunch for the responses. 

HyLyte, could you provide some more details on the Cal vs Islander comparison? Was the Cal faster, steadier, easier to handle? These boats are pretty similar on paper, so anything you could add would help get the picture.

emoney, prices are pretty much set in stone at this point (I did do some bargaining). Islander has another offer pending, so there's not much room there. Condition-wise the Cal is by far the best, the Islander the worst (although still pretty good), and Pearson somewhere in the middle. Engine-wise it's the exact opposite: Islander the best, Cal the worst. I guess what I'm really trying to find out is which one is the better sailboat.

Any opinions on the Pearson? From what I read it's supposed to be a very good boat, but it would be nice to hear from someone who can compare first-hand to the other two.

Cheers,
Alex.


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## scratchee (Mar 2, 2012)

Alex,

I bought a Cal 2-27 back in March of this year. Though I learned to sail years ago, this is the first boat I've ever owned, skippered, and single-handed. Mine cost just a little more than the one you looked at, but it had a working Atomic 4.

We've really enjoyed this boat. It's simple, apparently bullet proof, and pretty nice in the interior compared to other boats I've seen in the same class. I love all the wood. I've told many people, "it's the perfect boat for us" (family of four, mostly new to sailing, not a lot of extra cash to throw around, etc.) It's a nice size for doing some overnighters while not being impossible to get in and out of our tight slip. That said, I would not be overly enthusiastic about getting one with an outboard. My own personal preference is to have an inboard, and not having one would be a show stopper for me (unless repairing the inboard worked out in the total dollars.)

As far as changing the name of a boat, my feeling would be to pick a new name, paint it on the transom, and do a dance on the fo'c'sle daring Neptune to do anything about it since it's your own damn boat and not his.


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

I have a Cal 2-27. They're good boats. Very roomy for their size (they're actually about 26.5' LOA), and well built for that vintage. Self-tailing winches are about $1K a pop, so that makes this particular boat that much nicer. Somehow, I can't imagine it costing $3K to change a head gasket; it's just not that big a job, particularly on a little engine like this. If you have any mechanical inclination at all, you can probable do the job yourself. Or, look around and see if you can get someone to give you a more reasonable bid. You can probably save a bundle by pulling the engine yourself and taking it to a shop for the head gasket, and whatever else it needs. Then re-install the engine and have a mechanic align it once you've done all the reconnecting, et cetera. Or, as you said, take the opportunity to fiddle around with electric propulsion. When/if the Yanmar in my boat ever dies, I'll likely replace it with an electric unit; problem is that with just a modicum of maintenance a diesel auxiliary can easily out-live its owner.

That said, if you are really new to sailing, I wouldn't buy that big a boat right now. Instead, get yourself a sloop-rigged dinghy of some sort (FJ, 470, Thistle, Lido, Coronado 15, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera), and sail the bejesus out of it for a year or so. THEN, look at "yachts". You'll be in a much better position to make some intelligent choices about which boats would really be a good fit for you, AND you'll have the sailing skills to have a lot more fun with your new toy. Such a plan may sound like delaying your "dream" for a bit, but in the long run you'll probably save yourself a lot of headaches.


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## baboon (Aug 7, 2008)

One thing to keep in mind is what else is wrong with the diesel in the Cal 27. If it does not run at all it is hard to know if it is just the head gasket or is there more damage. I know little about the farymann, but they are old engines and part availability might be an issue. If you go with the Cal you might want to negotiate an engine tear down to really get into what is wrong as part of the transaction. Another option would be to get the price down so you can plan on a total re-power if needed. 

Pushing the Cal with an outboard is not a great option. It is 7000lbs so not only does the motor have to be up to the task, but the mount has to be very heavy duty and the stern re-inforced. It can get rough where you are sailing and having an outboard bouncing around at the end of the boat is not so great.


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## kotyara (Oct 28, 2012)

The more I read about Farymann engines, the more I realize that it would have to be scrapped. Apparently, it wasn't that good to begin with, and the parts are not produced any more, so it would be an uphill battle. The price already reflects that fact, so it won't go down (it's already pretty damn low, considering the condition of the boat). 

At this point I think I'll go for the Cal and use the outboard to start with (I won't go far in the next few months anyway  That would give me time to properly research and build an electric drive system, which should suffice for my purposes and still be much cheaper than a new diesel. I might even keep the outboard as a backup! The old diesel might even provide some parts for that, like a shaft coupling.

As for starting with a dinghy, my first try at sailing was on a 14' dinghy, and I didn't much like it. Just couldn't get over the need to always watch the boat so that it wouldn't capsize. Besides, I was led to believe that dinghy sailing skills are not directly transferable to the keel boats...


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

kotyara said:


> ...
> As for starting with a dinghy, my first try at sailing was on a 14' dinghy, and I didn't much like it. Just couldn't get over the need to always watch the boat so that it wouldn't capsize. Besides, I was led to believe that dinghy sailing skills are not directly transferable to the keel boats...


Whoever told you that didn't know much about sailing.

Learning to sail is in large part learning to integrate ALL the cues available. If you can master sailing a flippy little dinghy you'll be in a far better position to sail a ballasted boat, particularly when you get caught in nasty weather (and you WILL get caught in nasty weather, sooner or later). But, it's your life. Just do us all a favor and don't get a boat-load of friends and/or kids hurt or killed when you find out how valuable it _*would*_ have been to have developed your sailing skills on a smaller boat.


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## kotyara (Oct 28, 2012)

SlowButSteady said:


> Whoever told you that didn't know much about sailing.
> 
> Learning to sail is in large part learning to integrate ALL the cues available. If you can master sailing a flippy little dinghy you'll be in a far better position to sail a ballasted boat, particularly when you get caught in nasty weather (and you WILL get caught in nasty weather, sooner or later). But, it's your life. Just do us all a favor and don't get a boat-load of friends and/or kids hurt or killed when you find out how valuable it _*would*_ have been to have developed your sailing skills on a smaller boat.


I don't doubt dinghy sailing experience would be advantageous, I just don't think it would be the only way to learn. I would think it would be more dangerous to take out a "flippy little boat" on the SF Bay, especially in bad weather, than a sturdy keel boat. Maybe it would've been different on a lake.

Not sure why this point of view irritated you, but if it makes you feel better, I did state that I plan to single-hand most of the time. I also intend to take plenty of lessons and stay in protected waters until I'm confident in my sailing abilities, as well as take every safety precaution possible. If that seems reckless to you, well, we'll just have to agree to disagree.


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

Like I said, it's your life.

BTW, I learned how to sail on SF Bay, Berkeley Aquatic Park, and Lake Merced, in a dinghy.


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

Maybe I sound a little harsh. But I'm getting tired of hearing about novice sailors (often with an ASA class or two to "brag" about) who get themselves in way over their heads and make dumb (sometimes fatal) decisions because they never learned to control a boat in marginal conditions. Sailing a dinghy gives you some of that experience, because dinghies are far more often "on the edge". 

But, I say this all the time, and people ignore me and learn the hard way. So be it.


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## flo617 (Mar 3, 2010)

Sometimes I think I'd feel safer in a small dinghy. At least it won`t go anywhere if I fall overboard.

For pure sailing, a smaller boat is so much nicer... sigh. There is nothing like the sensation of being part of the boat, one arm feeling the wind through the sheet and the another one feeling the flow of the water on the tiller.

Dinghy sailing skills are completely transferable in the sense that you will know when you are doing something stupid even if your large boat does not immediately sends the feedback. Now, knowing how to right a boat should hopefully be less useful.


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## baboon (Aug 7, 2008)

Although I have always liked the Cal, a re-power alone may end up costing more than a whole boat with a working motor. The cost to the prior owner to re-power my boat was twice the asking price of the boat you are looking at. My boat is about the same size and age and came originally with a A4 or Ferrymann diesel. For comparison here is one in my area that has been on the marked for a while, with a working diesel,
Cal 2-27 Sailboat,
If you go with the outboard you will come out ahead for a time, but if the long term plan is to work out some type of inboard power you might be in for a pretty big total investment compared to a ready to go boat. That may not be a bad thing if you have the $, love the boat, and have the time and skill to get it done.


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## kotyara (Oct 28, 2012)

Funny you should mention it, I just completed ASA101 course  I wouldn't "brag" about it though, it's more an indication of how "green" I really am, not the other way around.

I didn't mean to sound ungrateful for the advice, and I do understand your point. It's just that I don't think it's the only way to learn, although I fully accept that it may be the best one.

Although I'm very new to sailing, I've been a car driver for 20 years, so I'll try to compare to that. I drove different kinds of cars, from 300hp tuned sports cars to delivery trucks, different conditions, from highway cruising, to mad Paris driving, to club time trials on the track. That still doesn't qualify me as an expert, but I do believe I have enough experience to appreciate the insight driving a small sports car gives you, that feeling of being connected to the road, getting feedback that helps you understand the consequences of your actions. Ideally, everyone should learn to drive by getting into a go-cart, as that gives you the most feedback. Unfortunately, it's very seldom the case and you can become a very good driver even if you drive an SUV, all you need is a desire to learn and proper instruction. Safety is, of course, an issue and should be taken very seriously, especially when there're passengers or other people on the road are involved. Practicing trail breaking on a freeway in the middle of rush hour is hardly a sane thing to do, but doing the same thing on a track with an instructor in the passenger seat would be very useful.

Now, does all this relate to sailing as well, or am I way off? If I am, I would be grateful for any insight. In my, admittedly uneducated, opinion starting to sail on a 27' moderate displacement boat would be like staring to drive in a Camry. Probably not the best choice, but far from the worst. Am I wrong to draw that parallel?

All that said, I do appreciate all the feedback, I really do. I just reserve the right to respectfully defend my own views on the subject, however naive and baseless they may be. 

Cheers,
Alex.


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## kotyara (Oct 28, 2012)

baboon said:


> Although I have always liked the Cal, a re-power alone may end up costing more than a whole boat with a working motor. The cost to the prior owner to re-power my boat was twice the asking price of the boat you are looking at. My boat is about the same size and age and came originally with a A4 or Ferrymann diesel. For comparison here is one in my area that has been on the marked for a while, with a working diesel,
> [link removed] Cal 2-27 Sailboat,
> If you go with the outboard you will come out ahead for a time, but if the long term plan is to work out some type of inboard power you might be in for a pretty big total investment compared to a ready to go boat. That may not be a bad thing if you have the $, love the boat, and have the time and skill to get it done.


I actually looked at that boat a while ago, but I figured it would be too much hassle to get it transported to SF. Now that I've looked into parts availability for Farymanns, I'm not so sure it's such a good deal.

I realize it'll cost a sizable chunk of money to convert to electric, but I figured it'll be a fun project and would cost a lot less if I do some of the non-specialized work myself and use components or kits, rather than turn-key systems. I'm estimating around $5K to do the conversion over the next year or two, which would still be about half the cost of a diesel repower. Add to that a pair of good ST winches, and the dollars start to make a lot more sense. The outboard would be just the means to still be sailing in good weather while I'm doing all that.

Cheers,
Alex.


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## baboon (Aug 7, 2008)

kotyara said:


> Funny you should mention it, I just completed ASA101 course  I wouldn't "brag" about it though, it's more an indication of how "green" I really am, not the other way around.
> 
> I didn't mean to sound ungrateful for the advice, and I do understand your point. It's just that I don't think it's the only way to learn, although I fully accept that it may be the best one.
> 
> ...


I think your analysis is a reasonable one. I started sailing high performance dingys, and still do. I also windsurf and sail my 30 ft keel boat. I really do think the learning curve is much faster in a dingy, but that does not mean you should go buy one. As long as you are conservative with your first sails, and perhaps take someone with you with more exerience, you should be fine. Your choice for a first sailboat is good, solid and safe if in good repair. I am surprised when inexperienced sailors buy a big new boat, it must be pretty depressing the first time you bounce it off the dock.

Having said that, a few hours in a dingy will teach you sail control and other skills that can take days to master on a bigger boat. Try to get out on a Laser or similar aboat at at local club. You will be glad you did.


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## paul323 (Mar 13, 2010)

I can't give you direct feedback on that particular Pearson, but have sailed in smaller and larger models. What I can tell you is the Pearson has a very good reputation for solid, well-build, well-designed boats. They used quality materials throughout. Personally - I am biased  - I would have thought the Pearson is likely to be the best built of the three.

As always, it comes down to condition and price. All three are quality boats, but if you intend to sail in The Slot (I think you mentioned SF), then I would err on the side of a strong, well-built, seakindly boat. it can get rough and windy out there. 

BTW, don't worry about changing the name. Just follow an "official" de-naming ceremony, and don't stint on the champagne. An awful name is worse luck than a rename.....


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## kotyara (Oct 28, 2012)

baboon said:


> I think your analysis is a reasonable one. I started sailing high performance dingys, and still do. I also windsurf and sail my 30 ft keel boat. I really do think the learning curve is much faster in a dingy, but that does not mean you should go buy one. As long as you are conservative with your first sails, and perhaps take someone with you with more exerience, you should be fine. Your choice for a first sailboat is good, solid and safe if in good repair. I am surprised when inexperienced sailors buy a big new boat, it must be pretty depressing the first time you bounce it off the dock.


Thank you for the reassurance, it is good to know I'm not totally off my rocker  As for bigger boats, I was really tempted at first. Dreamed about crossing oceans and all that. But then, I've made that mistake before, when I tried to get into motorcycles. Bought a brand new 130hp sport bike... it's been sitting in the garage for the past 4 years with only 2000 miles on the clock. I remembered that when I was lusting over that beautiful Cal 3-30 or an Olson 30 add in Latitude. Bottom line, I still have a 5 year old daughter and a beautiful wife to home to, so I doubt I'll be taking stupid risks.



> Having said that, a few hours in a dingy will teach you sail control and other skills that can take days to master on a bigger boat. Try to get out on a Laser or similar aboat at at local club. You will be glad you did.


Now that is a very good idea. I don't think I'll want to start that way, but will definitely give it a try if only to gain an appreciation for that type of sailing.

Cheers,
Alex.


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## svHyLyte (Nov 13, 2008)

kotyara said:


> ...
> HyLyte, could you provide some more details on the Cal vs Islander comparison? Was the Cal faster, steadier, easier to handle? These boats are pretty similar on paper, so anything you could add would help get the picture.
> 
> ...


Alex---

Keep in mind that my "experience" was over 30 years ago so specific details are a bit out of reach. The Cal we sailed was out of Sausalito, near where we had our own boat at the (then) Marina Shipyard in down town Sausalito. The Islander was owned by my one-and-only's uncle and was berthed at the Berkeley Marina on the east side of the Bay. On both boats we sailed relatively similar tracks albeit with different starting points. Around Angel Island, out to the Bridge, back to SFYC, back over the Berkeley Circle and then home. For what it's worth, sailing across the Bay from the southwest end of Raccoon Straight to the south end of the Bridge near the Coast Guard station and than back along the shore to the City Front puts one in some fairly heavy winds, water. (Learning to sail in SF really does prepare one for relatively rough going).

N'any case, I just recall that the Islander seemed to labor quite a bit more in the conditions then did the Cal which just flew, especially so once we turned off the wind (Lapworth's hull/keel/rudder design). The Cal also seemed to handle better, in general, and was somewhat more forgiving of "sloppy" helming than was the Islander. Of course, once moored up at Ayala Cove, the Islander was more "shippy" than the Cal, particularly with basket weave cabinet fronts and polished brass oil lamps in the "salon" while we sipped Irish Coffee (verses Dos XX's and Taco Chips).

FWIW...


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

kotyara said:


> H
> What are your thoughts? How do they compare purely on sailing characteristics? Which one would be the fastest, the most stable? How significant is outboard vs. inboard? Any potential problems to look out for, weak areas?
> Alex.


*Thoughts:* They are 3 comparable boats, all suitable for your purposes, although few people actively campaign these boats racing in PHRF. If you are really interested in racing in S.F. Bay area, I would try to find a planing keel boat, such as an Olson 30, Hobie 33, Santa Cruz 27, Moore 24, J/27, J/29, etc., for double or triple the cost.

*How do they compare on sailing characteristics? Which one would be the fastest, the most stable? *

Research the PHRF ratings in your area for relative speed. There is not a whole lot of difference between the boats - I see the P28-1 at 198 and the I28 at 201 in Northern Calif., the Cal 27-2 rates 207 in N.E. PHRF, where the P28-1 rates 195.

*How significant is inboard?*

On boats this size and displacement, very significant. An outboard propeller will struggle to stay in the water in any kind of waves on a moderate displacement 28 foot boat. You should look for a diesel, if possible. Don't buy a boat without a working engine.

*Any potential problems? *

You need to research each boat to discover the common problem areas and pay particular attention on your own pre-contract inspection to those problem areas.

I enjoy my Pearson 28-1 and would encourage you to view my 20 videos on youtube at jameswilson29 channel to see its sailing characteristics for yourself:


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## kotyara (Oct 28, 2012)

LOL, wrote this yesterday, but forgot to hit the send button 

Hylyte, thanks for the info. I'm pretty much set on the Cal at this point, but it's still nice to know it'll be the steadier of the two. Looking forward to the summer winds on the bay 

James, I'm not really expecting to win any races, especially singlehanded, I just find that a healthy amount of competition keeps my interest level up and provides a useful checkpoint on how I'm progressing. The point is to improve, not necessarily win (although that would be the icing on the cake of course 

There's the Singlehanded Sailing Society on the SF Bay that runs several races each year and I intend to take part in some of the shorter ones next year. All sorts of boats compete there, from Olsons to Tritons, including 3 other Cal 2-27s, so I should be in good company.

Thanks for the vote for the Pearson (nice video!). I've been oscillating between it and the Cal, but conditioning and hardware, and the fact that Pearson is longer and heavier for the same PHRF rating (NCPHRF has both at 198, it's on YRA site, can't post links yet), made the difference.

I hear you on the inboard. In fact I've heard many similar opinions. To that end, I've decided to go for the electric conversion, so the outboard is just an interim measure. I'm a techie, so I'm reasonably sure I'll be able to do a good job of it.

Cheers,
Alex.


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## svHyLyte (Nov 13, 2008)

kotyara said:


> LOL, wrote this yesterday, but forgot to hit the send button
> 
> Hylyte, thanks for the info. I'm pretty much set on the Cal at this point, but it's still nice to know it'll be the steadier of the two. Looking forward to the summer winds on the bay
> 
> ...


Alex--

Reserve judgment on the outboard verses inboard debate until you have sailed the yacht for awhile. The inboard has it's merits, but also adds complications, and costs, that one doesn't have with an outboard. One could, in theory, use an electric drive with a Cal, but I suspect you'll find it's really more of a project than the yacht merits/needs.

FWIW...


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## emoney (Jun 2, 2010)

And to add to the conversation, don't jump into the "electric propulsion" idea right off the bat. Not to think for others, but I'd at least be willing to wager that after a year you'll find yourself browsing back through the "for sale" ads, as by then you'll start to know what it is you truly do "need" and "want". Today it's all just suposition. That electric propulsion is going to be a lot more costly than you're probably thinking, as it's been a real-life subject around here quite often. Search the forums and you'll get a feel for what I'm talking about. I can almost promise you it won't be cheaper to build the electric motor than it will be to repair the one installed, at least I'm relatively confident in that not knowing the true story on what's in there. You won't recoup the cost of electric propulsion as it's still an idea that hasn't gained a lot of traction. Batteries take up a lot more room and add a lot more weight than you think. Even though it's not always prudent to enter into a purchase thinking about resale, I do know that it's unwise to not consider it.

The word "dinghy" doesn't necessarily mean a 14' Snipe, btw. Lots of folks consider anything under 25' a dinghy and some even under 27-30'. I will say that the transition from a 22' keel boat to a 27' keel boat was a LOT bigger jump than I had anticipated. I went in assuming, "what's the difference, it's just 5 foot". Famous last words I'm sure said by many more folks than just me.

Having said all that, I will add the most important piece to this thread: pics or it did not happen. So, at this point, none of us have believed anything you've mentioned because we've not seen photographic evidence. Proof is in the pudding, you know. Good luck and keep us posted......I mean, if you ever decide to look at a boat (which means posting a picture of said boat).


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## kotyara (Oct 28, 2012)

Actually, I'm not going into the electric project completely unprepared. I've been reading all I can about it the past month or so, including the wealth of information on electricboat yahoo group. The reason is I've been looking at another motorless boat back then. There're a few boats very similar to the Cal that have been converted, so there's some data available. Anyhow, from all I've read, it should be possible to put together a system that would push the boat at 5 knots for an hour or two, or 4-5 hours at 4 knots, or 4 knots on a portable generator as long as the gas lasts. Total cost should be under $5K, which would make it half of a diesel repower. I realize I'll loose at least half of that investment if/when I sell the boat, but considering the screaming deal I'm getting on the boat, it might still be worth it. Besides, it's a fun project, much more so than trying to hunt down out-of-production parts for an old diesel at the end of his rope. I know there're drawbacks to it, I think I can live with them, given that I don't see any long cruses in the next few years at least, but only time will tell.

I don't know how you can consider a keel boat a dinghy, and I don't think that's what was being suggested earlier. FWIW, I did ASA101 on Merit 25 and Cal 24. Didn't like the Merit much, it just felt too twitchy, Cal felt a bit more solid. They both were easy to handle though, but not nearly as much feedback as a 14' real dinghy I tried a bit earlier. I'm hoping 27' won't be too far away from those two, but we'll see...

Pics, yes, I need to snap a few. My wife's been waiting for them as well (she's far away and can't go visit the boat with me). I've been to see the boat twice now but got so excited both times that completely forgot about the camera. I'm waiting for the seller to straighten out all the paperwork, after that a survey needs to be arranged. Hopefully it won't take more than a couple of weeks. I'll try not to forget to snap a few next time I'm there.


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## svHyLyte (Nov 13, 2008)

kotyara said:


> Actually, I'm not going into the electric project completely unprepared. I've been reading all I can about it the past month or so, including the wealth of information on electricboat yahoo group. The reason is I've been looking at another motorless boat back then. There're a few boats very similar to the Cal that have been converted, so there's some data available. Anyhow, from all I've read, it should be possible to put together a system that would push the boat at 5 knots for an hour or two, or 4-5 hours at 4 knots, or 4 knots on a portable generator as long as the gas lasts. Total cost should be under $5K, which would make it half of a diesel repower. I realize I'll loose at least half of that investment if/when I sell the boat, but considering the screaming deal I'm getting on the boat, it might still be worth it. Besides, it's a fun project, much more so than trying to hunt down out-of-production parts for an old diesel at the end of his rope. I know there're drawbacks to it, I think I can live with them, given that I don't see any long cruses in the next few years at least, but only time will tell.
> 
> I don't know how you can consider a keel boat a dinghy, and I don't think that's what was being suggested earlier. FWIW, I did ASA101 on Merit 25 and Cal 24. Didn't like the Merit much, it just felt too twitchy, Cal felt a bit more solid. They both were easy to handle though, but not nearly as much feedback as a 14' real dinghy I tried a bit earlier. I'm hoping 27' won't be too far away from those two, but we'll see...
> 
> Pics, yes, I need to snap a few. My wife's been waiting for them as well (she's far away and can't go visit the boat with me). I've been to see the boat twice now but got so excited both times that completely forgot about the camera. I'm waiting for the seller to straighten out all the paperwork, after that a survey needs to be arranged. Hopefully it won't take more than a couple of weeks. I'll try not to forget to snap a few next time I'm there.


Alex--

Two thoughts. Firstly, do not make your decision without your wife's agreement unless you plan to do your sailing alone more often than not. An unhappy wife makes for an unenthusiastic crew/partner and that is not what you need. Like it or not, unless you want to do this as "your own" entertainment/hobby the wife needs to feel safe, secure and comfortable aboard the boat. The Bay can get fairly nasty at times and a frightened, nervous, wife doesn't/can't help the situation.

Secondly, the electric drive may have some merits but it isn't likely to be viewed as a positive attribute by many when it comes time to sell the boat, so you may/will be limiting the market for your boat. I realize that there are relatively more "environmentally sensitive" folks in the Bay area than in other areas but they are a relatively small percentage of the population never-the-less and an awful lot of them have a rapid change of heart when confronted with the practical limitations/trade-off's. (That said, I have often thought that a diesel-electric drive would make more sense for a boat then not given that such an arrangement allows one to place the diesel in a more opportune location from a weight and balance perspective with the drive where it needs to be.) N'any case, to test your theory about electric drive you might opt for an electric outboard to begin with which you can do relatively inexpensively. You'll need a fairly sizable battery bank for much running but that's not such a big deal given your objectives and the system will allow you to test your patience/tolerance for such a system. If you like it, an electric outboard can easily be resold and an internal drive substituted. Or not.

FWIW...


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## kotyara (Oct 28, 2012)

svHyLyte said:


> Alex--
> 
> Two thoughts. Firstly, do not make your decision without your wife's agreement unless you plan to do your sailing alone more often than not. An unhappy wife makes for an unenthusiastic crew/partner and that is not what you need. Like it or not, unless you want to do this as "your own" entertainment/hobby the wife needs to feel safe, secure and comfortable aboard the boat. The Bay can get fairly nasty at times and a frightened, nervous, wife doesn't/can't help the situation.


Oh, trust me, I'm well aware of that. Unfortunately, I can't get her in-person approval (long story), but fortunately she likes the idea and is adventurous enough to give it a good try.



svHyLyte said:


> Secondly, the electric drive may have some merits but it isn't likely to be viewed as a positive attribute by many when it comes time to sell the boat, so you may/will be limiting the market for your boat. I realize that there are relatively more "environmentally sensitive" folks in the Bay area than in other areas but they are a relatively small percentage of the population never-the-less and an awful lot of them have a rapid change of heart when confronted with the practical limitations/trade-off's. (That said, I have often thought that a diesel-electric drive would make more sense for a boat then not given that such an arrangement allows one to place the diesel in a more opportune location from a weight and balance perspective with the drive where it needs to be.) N'any case, to test your theory about electric drive you might opt for an electric outboard to begin with which you can do relatively inexpensively. You'll need a fairly sizable battery bank for much running but that's not such a big deal given your objectives and the system will allow you to test your patience/tolerance for such a system. If you like it, an electric outboard can easily be resold and an internal drive substituted. Or not.
> 
> FWIW...


The problem with reselling electric boats is that people tend to do the conversion with turn-key kits and expensive batteries that end up costing more than a diesel repower. They expect to recoup a large portion of that cost when selling the boat, but predictably get much less than a comparable diesel boat. No surprise there, if I had a choice between diesel and electric, all else equal, I'd go for diesel every time. Now, if you compare electric to Atomic 4, it's a different story  So, I'd expect an electric conversion to sell for a little more than an Atomic 4 boat, but well short of diesel price.

It doesn't make financial sense to repower that boat with a diesel, it's a big upfront cost and little chance of getting it back on resale ($4K boat + $10K conversion - $8K resale tops = $6K loss). All I'm looking for is a reasonable inboard option that won't break the bank ($4K boat + $5K conversion - $6K resale = $3K loss). I suppose I could probably put an old Atomic 4 in for about $2K, but that's just plain wrong...

Electric outboard is an interesting idea, but it kind of defeats the purpose. If an outboard will be enough for me, I'll just stay with the Honda. Besides, I can probably resell inboard electric components for around 2/3 of their purchase price if it doesn't work out (assuming I don't short them out of course 

All that said, I'm fully prepared to leave it with the outboard Honda if it turns out to be sufficient for my needs. The real attraction of this deal is that I'll have options and won't need to do anything about it right from the start.

Now, if only the seller would get off his *ahem* and get the paperwork straightened out...


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## baboon (Aug 7, 2008)

I think it is great that you are being something of an inovator with the electric power plans, but would urge some caution moving forward. You will be using the boat in an area known for challenging sailing conditions and big tides. I think most new sailors end up using their motors more than they think they will, it was certainly true for me. As it turns out sailing in fog, against tides, or into a big headwind and seas takes a lot experience. Unless you have a small boat on a lake (not the Great Lakes), having a reliable motor means more than just getting in and out of the marina.

I have no personal experience with electric propulsion, but do note that most estimates of run time on batteries are under ideal conditions. Your sailing venue is kind of the oposite of that. I also sail in an area with tides and have experienced huge variability of transit times based on conditions. This summer we were heading home on a course that under ideal conditions would have taken 30-40 mins. The weather, forcast to be wet but calm, went bad, with wind and chop right on the nose, we got slowed down and ended up hitting the ebb tide just wrong, and were making zero headway under sail. The resulting motor home took about 2 hours and burned a lot of desiel, using about 50% more throttle to go 1/2 the speed compared to good conditions. Knowing that my tank still contained many hours of extra energy to get home was a big help.

Others will point out that many sailors have traveled the world with no motor at all. This works if you have great boat skills, or no time constraints. In the situation above we could have turned tail and anchored in the lee of the weather and been safe. By the time the tide turned and the weather settled down it would have been after dark. 

All said and done I will follow your expereince with interest, please keep posting. In the end my prediction is that you will end up keeping the ourboard, if it works ok, even if the electric drive works out too, kind of like the Chevy Volt. Having 2 auxillary systems is ok, but might be a bit crowded on a 27 foot boat.


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## kotyara (Oct 28, 2012)

That's a point very well taken. Despite deciding to go ahead with the electric, I still have some reservations about it, range and power being the biggest ones. From what I gathered, it seems most people have a small portable gas generator (Honda 2000 seems to be the usual choice), which alone is capable of providing around 4 knots of speed under calm conditions. It can also be run in addition to the batteries to get hull speed for a couple of hours. However, I'm not very clear on how it is deployed on the boat, particularly in bad weather, as it cannot be run in the cabin and I'm not sure it's designed to be doused in salt water all that much. I guess I'll start with it, and if turns out to be insufficient, there's always the possibility of mounting a proper diesel genset, although that would be expensive. 

Another thing I'm worried about is the safety of that much electrical current running in the boat. Most installations I've seen pictures of look completely open and vulnerable to cabin flooding. I think I'd rather build a watertight enclosure for the whole system, but again, not sure how workable that would be.

So, all in all, I think these issues are workable, but the outboard will stay on the boat for a long time, until I'm absolutely sure the electric will do the job in all possible situations. 100lbs of dead weight is a small price to pay for added security.

Anyway, I'll keep you posted on the progress, but it's probably going to be at least another week till I get the boat surveyed and there's any new information...


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## SeaMck333 (Dec 5, 2011)

I learned to sail on a pearson 28. Although I love my Ericson I always remember how kind that person was to my less than salty maneuvering. All these boats are great, but I can say from experience that the Pearson is a great boat, and great for the novice sailor. In fact I know a ASA instructor who looked for that boat to teach his 101 classes on because its so forgiving to the unexperienced, while performing well for a more mature sailor. Plus the cabin has some serious headroom for us 6'2" boaters.

Cheers, and remember you'll fall in love with it no matter what your first boat is, and thats the real tick anyways.

Sean


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## baboon (Aug 7, 2008)

kotyara said:


> That's a point very well taken. Despite deciding to go ahead with the electric, I still have some reservations about it, range and power being the biggest ones. From what I gathered, it seems most people have a small portable gas generator (Honda 2000 seems to be the usual choice), which alone is capable of providing around 4 knots of speed under calm conditions. It can also be run in addition to the batteries to get hull speed for a couple of hours. However, I'm not very clear on how it is deployed on the boat, particularly in bad weather, as it cannot be run in the cabin and I'm not sure it's designed to be doused in salt water all that much. I guess I'll start with it, and if turns out to be insufficient, there's always the possibility of mounting a proper diesel genset, although that would be expensive.
> 
> Another thing I'm worried about is the safety of that much electrical current running in the boat. Most installations I've seen pictures of look completely open and vulnerable to cabin flooding. I think I'd rather build a watertight enclosure for the whole system, but again, not sure how workable that would be.
> 
> ...


I have an older version of the Honda 2000 generator, and with it wired to a motor it might push a small boat, but I would imagine the real value is in charging the batts. Mine will run a leaf blower or a few lights, but it does not take much of an increase in demand to trip the breaker. It does not take much grunt to move a sailboat in calm conditions, I once towed my 9k lb boat with a rowing dingy for serveral hundred yards. As I noted earlier my 20 HP diesel with a lot of torque can struggle to move it against chop and headwind.


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## kotyara (Oct 28, 2012)

Well, as I understand it, the rule of thumb is electric has to be half the power of the diesel it is replacing. Don't ask me why, something to do with torque curves  I'm shooting for 8.5Kw (~11hp), that should beat the crap out of 8hp Honda outboard and the broken 12hp Farymann and be more than enough for the boat. The big question is how long will the battery hold out at that power level if I need it. Probably not long, but I'll have to figure out how much power I would really need to get out of a tight spot. At some point any engine would be overpowered.


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## kotyara (Oct 28, 2012)

Finally got some traction on the boat, hopefully will be able to get the inspection done some time late next week. However, one bad piece of news is that the Honda outboard they promised me has been sold :/ So, now I have to look for motor separately. Would a 6hp 4-stroke be enough for it, or should I look for a 8-10hp? I'm trying to avoid 2-strokes for noise reasons, but besides weight, are there any advantages to them over 4-strokes?

Also, is there a big advantage to a x-long (25") shaft? I've been considering a new 6hp Tohatsu sailpro, which is only $1500. The main attraction is the long shaft, so I'd appreciate any opinions on that.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

You might reconsider. Why buy a boat without a working engine in this market?

I know others will disagree, but I am concerned about seeing a boat designed to have an inboard, carrying an outboard engine added to the transom. It looks like someone cut corners and was too cheap to repair the inboard.

If I were you, I would not get too attached to any particular boat. Just look for the best deal in your price range.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

kotyara said:


> It doesn't make financial sense to repower that boat with a diesel, it's a big upfront cost and little chance of getting it back on resale ($4K boat + $10K conversion - $8K resale tops = $6K loss).


This is why it makes sense to spend a little more upfront and find a boat with a good inboard diesel engine. I just also bought a new boat (a 1986 Pearson 28-2, little in common with the 28-1 that you are considering) and walked away from a couple of boats that appeared to need a repower. My 28-2 came with a pretty well maintained Yanmar 2GM20F.

An Islander 30 was one of our top choices too (the other contender was a C&C 30). One aspect that I didn't like was the fabric headliner that covered all of the deck hardware bolts. It made it difficult to inspect for leaks and the zippers to the headliners were frozen. In comparison my old Catalina 25 (a good first boat with none of the inboard headaches) had no headliner at all, and the Pearson that we bought has a rigid one with access panels to all deck bolts. I really prefer either of those options.

Electric inboard reduces your resale value because it limits how the boat can be used. It is great for a boat that is only going to be used on the bay, but the limited range makes it much less useful for short duration cruising (weeks not months or years). You can add a gas generator, but that's another big thing to be carrying around, and not something that I want in my cockpit when I'm forced to be motoring.

Anyway, I think you should be looking at other boats. It doesn't sound like any of these three are ideal for you.

I will say that a little smaller boat with an outboard (25' is about the upper limit) is a great way to get into sailing. Outboards are cheap and work well on smaller boats. Our Catalina 25 was motored in 4' seas without the prop coming out of the water using a 25" shaft length outboard. I learned a ton on that boat through lots of races, cruising (including a 12 day trip), and tons of day sailing. The smaller size (it's about 60% of the weight of my Pearson) made it more comfortable to single hand and the simpler systems made it very easy to work on. The are 22-25 foot boats available that are well suited to many types of sailing and that are a real blast. Outboards aren't awesome (they are noisy and even 4 stroke ones don't have great fuel economy), but they are good first boat motors.

You probably will get 3-to-5-foot-itis later on (as I did) and move up, but when you do the cheaper boat will be easy to sell and you'll have a much better idea of what you want on the bigger boat.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

kotyara said:


> Also, is there a big advantage to a x-long (25") shaft? I've been considering a new 6hp Tohatsu sailpro, which is only $1500. The main attraction is the long shaft, so I'd appreciate any opinions on that.


You will need a 25" long shaft to have an outboard even have a chance of working well on a 28' boat.

A 10hp (or maybe slightly larger) motor is what would normally be recommended for a boat of this displacement.

4-stroke motors are quieter, cleaner, more efficient, and don't require blending oil into the fuel.

Our Catalina 25 (over 2000lbs lighter than the Cal 2-27) had a Tohatsu/Nissan 9.8hp 4 stroke 25" shaft motor. It normally ran at the lower end of the throttle, but the higher power was occasionally useful when fighting big headwinds.


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## Greeng (Aug 9, 2012)

Some thoughts from an actual Cal owner with an outboard. I have a Cal T/2 which is the IOR version of the Cal2 27. The outboard saves you 200+ pounds and prop drag, but does require a reinforced stern mount (mine came that way from the factory).

A 9.9 longshaft will push you to hull speed at low RPM's and stays in the water in all but the biggest waves.

The Cal is a good solid boat - mine has been bulletproof for 38 years. It's also a big cheat with an outboard because it's rating is based on the inboard version - it won't take long for your local club to catch on should you do the outboard conversion.


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

Greeng said:


> Some thoughts from an actual Cal owner with an outboard. I have a Cal T/2 which is the IOR version of the Cal2 27. ...


Nope. The T/2 was based on the original Cal 27 hull. The 2-27 is about a foot shorter and has a completely different keel (encapsulated and 3100 pounds on the 2-27, verses external and 2500 pounds on the T/2 and original Cal 27).


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## Greeng (Aug 9, 2012)

Yep. I stand corrected. That said, in the protected conditions I sail in (waves 1-5 feet) the outboard has served me well - light weight, low cost, tiltout for racing.


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## kotyara (Oct 28, 2012)

Well, after a long search, it looks like I found my boat, and it's none of the above. It's a Cal 29. A little bigger than the others, but should still be manageable. By all accounts she should be stiff and well balanced, and a little faster.

It comes with an 8 year old 22HP Beta diesel and is fully setup for single-handing. The owner actually raced her single-handed all last season. 2 year old standing rigging, which is good, but a 2 year old bottom that would probably need a refresh. The sails seem a bit old, but I'm no expert and she seemed to do well to windward on the test sail... survey will tell. 

The only iffy part was quite a lot of play in the rudder. It could be just the bolts holding the tiller, but then again could be something else. Could this be a serious issue?

Mast support beam, which apparently is a problem spot on these boats, is the original steel, so it's probably rusted to some degree. The was no noticeable sagging and the owner said the new rigging didn't need to be tightened in the two years since the installation. Again, survey will tell.

Another thing is that the deck is covered by those rubber non-skid panels that look like they're inset into the deck. Is there anything I need to know about those? They seemed to be in good shape...

Other than that, she could use a repaint on the deck and inside the cabin, refinish on the few teak pieces on deck, maybe some minor cleanup in the cabin, but I'm not planning on cruising so that's not really an issue.

I guess that electric project will have to wait a few years 

Ok, off to arrange the survey now. Wish me luck 

Cheers,
Alex.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

You should carefully inspect the rudder to determine why there is play. May be simply a worn bearing or could be more serious.

My concern with the rubber nonskid is whether they were applied to cover up a cheap drill and fill wet balsa core job.

Were you able to inspect the mast step?

Why is the owner selling?


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

If the play is in the rudder post, the bearings in the rudder post tube are probably shot. In that vintage Cal the tube goes all the way from the hull to just below the tiller head (there is no stuffing box, et cetera). The shaft is aligned by a couple of plastic sleeve bearings/bushings pressed inside the tube. These bearings get worn over time and some play results. You could get a couple-three new plastic bearings machined out of Delrin plastic, but that will probably be a bit pricey unless you can do it yourself. The "classic" fix is fairly cheap and easy, but can be a little messy; you simply fill the space between the rudder post and the tube with epoxy. There are at least a couple of descriptions of the process on the net (there might even be one on SN; Google is your friend). It's not to difficult. But does have to be done with the boat out of the water.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Often a good bit of play can be found in the tiller head itself.. so a careful look for the source is in order.

New bushings would not be that big a deal, esp if the stock itself has not worn too badly.


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## svHyLyte (Nov 13, 2008)

kotyara said:


> Well, after a long search, it looks like I found my boat, and it's none of the above. It's a Cal 29. A little bigger than the others, but should still be manageable. By all accounts she should be stiff and well balanced, and a little faster.
> ...
> 
> The only iffy part was quite a lot of play in the rudder. It could be just the bolts holding the tiller, but then again could be something else. Could this be a serious issue?
> ...


Alex--

We owned a 1976 Cal 2-29 from inception through 2011, sailing her everywhere from San Francisco to Mexico and later on both the east and west coasts of Florida.

During the course of our ownership our rudder shaft eventually wore the rudder tube and became "Loose". (Some here have claimed that the shaft had bushings/bearings but that was not the case with our rudder--perhaps others.) The fix was pretty straight forward. We dropped the rudder, thoroughly waxed it and then covered it with bond breaker and then remounted it, blocking the blade in the proper position. While the blade was dismounted, we drilled roughly 3/16" diameter holes at roughly 90º intervals around the top of the tube, roughly 3" below the cockpit deck with a second row, offset from the first roughly 1" lower. With the rudder reinstalled in the tube, we created a "tinker's dam" around the shaft at the bottom of the tube with plasticine modeling clay. With that, one can inject thin epoxy into the tube until it begins to drip from the second, lower, "weep holes". With that, a little blob of modeling clay is pressed over each weep hole in turn until the epoxy cures. The epoxy will fill the interstitial space between the rudder shaft and the tube and, once cured, creates a firm mounting shaft for the rudder. A few twists of the rudder will free it and you're good to go. (We did ours in one go although you can also inject the epoxy in lifts, if necessary.)

We made the foregoing repair to our rudder in, roughly, 1989 and the rudder was still firm and functional when we sold the yacht in 2011. (Interestingly, the yacht has since been returned to San Francisco, now sailing out of Alameda.)

FWIW...


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## kotyara (Oct 28, 2012)

Thanks for advice on the rudder guys. I've done a bit or research after I posted and it does seem to be a common problem on Cals. I haven't seen any mention of bushings or bearings, but there were several methods suggested to fix it, from shoving pieces of a plastic coke bottle down the shaft, to epoxy injection, to wrapping the rudder shaft with UHMW tape. All told, it doesn't seem like a huge issue, and I'm glad to see confirmation of that here.

Rubber non-skid seems to be factory-installed, seems to be inset into the deck with small recessed water channels around the pieces. Did these boats really come from the factory like that?

Mast step looked fine, if a little weathered. It looked a lot like an aftermarket piece I've seen advertised on the net, basically a rectangular plate with sides that protruded about 1-1.5" from under the mast, bent upwards a little with holes for fittings in them. I was under impression old factory steps didn't have those fittings, so maybe it is an upgrade... Didn't look like stainless, more like aluminum, but I'm not sure.

The owner said he was moving on to a 35 footer, which I tend to believe, given that he seems to be really getting into racing now.

Survey is set for this Wed., I'll post the results.

Cheers for all the advice!

Alex.


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## kotyara (Oct 28, 2012)

Well, it's done. Survey went well, didn't find any major issues. The sloppy rudder turned out to be just the loose tiller head. There was a little bit of play in the rudder itself when the boat was hauled out, but not excessive. There was also a good amount of blisters (about 100-150), but they were small, about the size of a dime, and the surveyor advised not to worry about them.

So, now I just need to get the boat to her new home across the bay. That should be an interesting experience for a first sail 

Thanks for all your help guys, it was much appreciated.


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## firecracker (Apr 30, 2012)

Hello. My first boat was a Cal 2 27.i bought it with no experience.no engine.good boat to learn. Fun and fast for its size.will definitely be good choice. The pearson 28 is also a great boat.i havent sailed on one but have on many others including the 29.i beleive the pearson performs better upwind, the cal downwind.
question? Is any of the boats actually sailing?you must consider the condition of rhe rig and deck.the 8 hp will be too small to move the cal specially if its rough.
Islanders had a lot of problems with blisters sometime in the 70s


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## firecracker (Apr 30, 2012)

Sory didnt read all the posts. Cal 29, good for you sure you will love it.


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## svHyLyte (Nov 13, 2008)

Alex--

A couple of thoughts now that the boat is yours.

1. Icebox Drain. The drain from the ice box discharges through a small tube into the bilge. If you are like most of us, "stuff" will be spilled on the bottom of the box and eventually make it's way into the bilge drain. That can lead to some pretty unpleasing smells. And, the drain allows the cold air to bleed out of the box reducing it's usefulness. We solved these issues by carving a wine-bottle cork to fit the drain hole and plugging it and adding a layer of cut to shape "DriDeck" on the bottom of the box, sitting on a 1/4" layer of shaped closed cell foam. These can be lifted out and cleaned easily and the box cleaned out with a sponge. The closed cell foam improves the performance of the box. Also, depending upon where you live, many markets carry "dry-ice" in a little sub-zero freezer near the front of the store. These will keep the box quite cold and yet do not make a mess as they thaw as will water. As for Ice, keep a could on 1/2 gallon milk jugs. Thoroughly cleaned out these make good water bottles that can be frozen in advance, keeping the box cold and providing good drinking water to boot. I had planned to one-day add a refrigeration unit under the box--there is room--but found the foregoing arrangement sufficiently satisfactory that I never got around to it--in 26 years.

2. Engine Bilge Sump. The bilge sump under the motor is separated from the rest of the bilge which is good as drips of oil, fuel, etc. do not mix with bilge water and so are not discharged from the yacht when/if the bilge pump kicks on. I made up a "mobile" bilge pump, just a small submersible pump, that I attached to a 1"x2" piece of lumber and fitted with a 6' or so 1/2" diameter tube and powered by Alligator clamps that I could temporarily connect to the ships batteries. Sump water was pumped into a bucket with a POL absorbent pad that seemed to collect the vast majority of oil after which the pad was placed in a plastic bag for shore side disposal and the water tossed overboard. This seemed to work very well as we very rarely observed any "rainbows" on the water after dumping the discharge.

3. Chain-plate deck penetration covers. Keep a close eye on the chain-plate backings, particularly for the lowers. The deck plates are famous for leaking and the plates are mounted in positions where it it difficult to inspect the fastenings to the bulk-heads, but they must be inspected periodically and repaired as necessary. Crevice corrosion has been a problem with the chain-plates on these boats if they are not kept dry and clean which requires periodic replacement of the sealant under the deck plates.

Good luck with the new boat...


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## kotyara (Oct 28, 2012)

Thanks Hylyte, that sounds like very good advice.

I was wondering about that bilge under the engine. In fact, I already dropped a 2" stainless hook in there, so I'll have to get really well acquainted with it soon 

Chain plates look ok, the PO had replaced the rigging two years ago and said he re-sealed the plates at that time. The interesting thing is that they seem to be attached to a pretty wide glass tab that holds the bulkheads in place. I thought the original arrangement had them attached to the actual wood, so maybe one of the previous owners had the bulkheads fixed (the last one hadn't done it). I'll have to poke around them, as the surveyor wasn't all that thorough.

I think the most encouraging thing about this boat is that the PO did his first ever coastal ocean race on her last year, so he said he really went through all the important bits and made sure everything was tightly attached. Not to mention that we're keeping in touch and will probably end up belonging to the same club  This really feels like just the right deal for me.

Cheers,
Alex.


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## svHyLyte (Nov 13, 2008)

Alex--

I do not know what side of the Bay you are living on but one Club to investigate is (click on) Richmond Yacht Club Your contact there would be Antonia Vanoni at (510) 237-2821. She can/will be happy to introduce you to some of the members and get you acquainted with folks. RYC is a real sailing club--both racing and cruising--and the members are very friendly and helpful. We have been members since the mid-1970's and maintain our membership even though we now live in southwest Florida. Never the less, we still display an RYC Burgee on our Transom (crossed flags) and will occasionally race under the BYC Burgee. If you're interested send me a PM.

FWIW...

_PS: RYC has an excellent yacht harbor by the way, and quite affordable. _


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## kotyara (Oct 28, 2012)

Actually both Cal 2-27 and Pearson 28 were at RYC, and Cal 29 is still at BYC until tomorrow, so I visited there a few times. The club and the harbor looked very nice and active, lots of boats, lots of events it seemed. I was there on the day of their season-ending halloween regata and it looked like lots of fun, lots of costumes, a live band cruising around the docks.

Unfortunately, I live in Cupertino, right next to San Jose, it takes me over an hour to get there without traffic, so for now I'm planning to get a slip at Coyote Point in San Mateo, about 30min drive and I'm hoping somewhat within reach of the Gate. Next year I'm thinking of moving to the city, if that happens I'll have to look around for something closer to all the action, RYC would definitely be high on the list.

If you find yourself back in the area, drop me a line. I'd love to thank you in person for all the good advice.

Cheers,
Alex.


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

In that size boat, Coyote Pt. to the Central Bay is close to a three hour haul.


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## kotyara (Oct 28, 2012)

Yes, that is what I'm guestimating. I'll have to start early to peek out of the Gate, but it is still better than about 5 hours out of Redwood City. The next harbor north is Oyster Point, and that would be close to an hour drive... There's also Santa Cruz and Half Moon Bay, but ocean sailing is a little out of my reach just yet. As I said, if you know of other options, I'd appreciate them.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

Since it is your first boat and you'll probably be doing some work on it I'd keep it close to home at first. You can move it closer to better sailing destinations later. I'm on my second boat, and on both my first and second boats I've been visiting it multiple times per week for the first 4-6 months as I work on projects and get it setup the way that I like. After that my visits trailed off and having it farther away wouldn't be a problem. Boats are easy to move and moorage isn't hard to find when you aren't in a hurry.


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

Alex W said:


> Since it is your first boat and you'll probably be doing some work on it I'd keep it close to home at first. You can move it closer to better sailing destinations later. I'm on my second boat, and on both my first and second boats I've been visiting it multiple times per week for the first 4-6 months as I work on projects and get it setup the way that I like. After that my visits trailed off and having it farther away wouldn't be a problem. Boats are easy to move and moorage isn't hard to find when you aren't in a hurry.


Alex has a very good point. You probably won't want to take the boat into The Slot until you get some experience anyway. Keep her closer to home so you can work on the bizzilion little projects a newly acquired boat always seems to have and polish you sailing skills in the South Bay for a while. Just keep off the shoals and keep away from those old pilings/submerged breakwaters/et cetera.


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## svHyLyte (Nov 13, 2008)

kotyara said:


> Yes, that is what I'm guestimating. I'll have to start early to peek out of the Gate, but it is still better than about 5 hours out of Redwood City. The next harbor north is Oyster Point, and that would be close to an hour drive... There's also Santa Cruz and Half Moon Bay, but ocean sailing is a little out of my reach just yet. As I said, if you know of other options, I'd appreciate them.


I suggest you click over to Activecaptain.com and register (it's free) and use the interactive charts/google maps to inspect the areas around the Bay that you can more easily access from Cupertino. Frankly, from Cupertino, there are few really "convenient" harbors although some are less inconvenient than others and I agree that, initially, you'll want the boat rather closer to home than not. It will also be advantageous to have a sailing area that is relatively less demanding vis-a-vis weather and traffic while you are "learning the ropes" and the boat. The Cal 29 is quite a good safe, fast boat but you'll need time to learn her what-fors. Later on you might move her up to somewhere like the Alameda estuary where there is an abundance of good marinas and reasonable access to the Central Bay. We had our boat there for awhile, at Barnhill Marina--now known as Marina Village--mostly because my (much) better half was addicted to the Oyster Stew that used to be served at the adjoining Rusty Pelican after we finished sailing, and she liked Jack London Square, which was a short hop across the Estuary.

N'any case, good luck with the boat.


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## kotyara (Oct 28, 2012)

Thanks for the advice guys. I completely agree, keeping her within easy reach of home/work would be important, as there're quite a few little things I'd like to work on. Coyote Point seems to be a good compromise in that sense: 30min drive, what seems like a pretty calm sailing area, but still within a one-way daysail to central bay. I'm not planning to go anywhere near the Gate for the foreseeable future, but it'd still be nice to have the option. 

With that in mind, I moved the boat there yesterday. Time was a little short and wind very light, so I had to motor-sail once I crossed the Bay bridge unfortunately, but it was a nice trip nevertheless. Made me appreciate a good diesel as it could move the boat at hull speed without straining. Traffic was pretty hectic around there, I passed two container ships and a tug towing a large barge in the span of 45min it took me to cross the bridge.

The entrance to the Coyote Point is pretty tight and I managed to run aground lightly (I was barely moving at around 2 kts), but a gentle reverse got me free. Hopefully, I won't find any damage once she gets a haul out in a few weeks (I got it as part of the survey deal, might as well use it).


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

Be careful going in and out of Coyote Pt. Marina. Many a boat has been grounded when they stray out of that channel. Keep an eye on the range markers as you enter AND leave, and stay lined up even well before the first set of marks.


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## br3nt (Mar 28, 2009)

Congrats on the boat. I'll second the advice about going in and out of Coyote Pt. We were at Coyote Point up until a few months ago. We really liked it there, staff was great and the other boaters were generally friendly. Once you get in it's pretty well protected with nice weather for work days. After we got a little more comfortable we moved up to Oyster Pt as we got really tired of looking at the airport so much. Oyster Pt isn't quite as nice and there's no protection but it ends up feeling a lot closer to the City and the bay. The wind at Oyster Pt is brutal coming out of the marina towards the end of the day. You may want to consider getting on a waiting list at Brisbane if you want something more protected and you're planning on moving up this way.


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## kotyara (Oct 28, 2012)

Oh, believe me, I will be careful. I've looked at the depth charts around the channel, there's no room anywhere past the entrance markers. I'm sure it'll be even more exciting come summer winds.

Thanks for the tip on Brisbane, I missed it somehow when I scouted the area. Even their web site looks more inviting somehow, and it looks like it's quite a bit cheaper than Oyster Point to boot, so maybe it would be a good idea to get on a waiting list, especially with the exodus from Pete's Harbor.


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