# Line Around Propeller



## LakeSuperiorGeezer (Oct 8, 2010)

Someone I recently met said that a line accidently wrapped around the propeller could cause $30,000 damage to the engine. Is this an exaggeration? What kinds damage if any have you experienced?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

If you chop power at the sign of trouble, I'm having a hard time believing one could add up that much damage. I suppose there are plenty that remain in denial and try to power through, but that is still too much.

Yes, I have wrapped a propeller...... once. No damage, other than getting the line off.

A Spurs line cutter is only several hundred dollars installed. Other than the holes for the holding block that need to be tapped, its a very easy do-it-yourself project for less. I wouldn't be without one.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

LakeSuperiorGeezer said:


> Someone I recently met said that a line accidently wrapped around the propeller could cause $30,000 damage to the engine. Is this an exaggeration? What kinds damage if any have you experienced?


$30-large? He must have had a huge, expensive boat. Even if I totally ruined my engine, prop and shaft, and paid someone to do ALL of the work, I'd be looking at about $10k.


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## Arpegecap (Sep 19, 2011)

On a large power boat, maybe. On a sailboat, nah.


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## patrscoe (May 9, 2011)

I have motored in reverse over our neighbors "excessively hanging in the water" dock lines last year. If you don't know about it, your engine will stall and you will drift backwards... and try to gain control over your boat. Difficult to remove from the shaft and prop at that point but only damage was a loosen stuffing box. Per the Marina's mechanic, typical problem is this is cutlass bearing damage and that is about it. $30k is a ridiculous amount of damage but if the situation is right and perhaps you have collapse motor mounts or issues with your transmission, or any other poor existing condition to your drive, etc... you could make those conditions worse and cause compounding damages but really not the direct cause of the dock lines.

But on the other hand, if I was unable to control my sailboat after I stalled out and ran into a $250k boat, sure, there is a good chance you could cause $30k worth of damage... to someone else's boat.


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## Blissopia (Jan 6, 2012)

A friend of mine got a line wrapped around the prop on his 29ft sail boat. It bent the prop shaft and tore the motor off it's mounts. It cost $9000 to fix all the related damage. The damage may have been amplified because the line was still attached to the dock.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

LakeSuperiorGeezer said:


> Someone I recently met said that a line accidently wrapped around the propeller could cause $30,000 damage to the engine. Is this an exaggeration? What kinds damage if any have you experienced?


Yes it's likely an exaggeration. I've yet to see a sailboat with a 30k engine.. A line around a prop CAN cause damage but often the damper plate minimized engine damage. Could bad damage occur to the engine? Sure but it is quite rare...

On boats with 30K engines they chew this stuff up and spit it out like a piece of spaghetti in a garbage disposal.. Used to run 50+ foot sport fishers and you'd never even feel it.... When enough line finally wrapped you'd notice a slight vibration and dive to clear it but the engines never missed a beat.. We even once hit some floating net and while it was a pain to clear it we never felt it..


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

Blissopia said:


> A friend of mine got a line wrapped around the prop on his 29ft sail boat. It bent the prop shaft and tore the motor off it's mounts. It cost $9000 to fix all the related damage. The damage may have been amplified because the line was still attached to the dock.


I simply don't charge enough if there are people willing to pay 9K for some shafting and motor mount work...


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## patrscoe (May 9, 2011)

He must of caught the line while motoring near a dock. I think most of the time, you catch a line while motoring out of your slip or in, those speeds would be slow and your attention to detail to resistance, speed, surroundings, etc... would be high. Any resistance would cause you to immediately stop to ensure you are not causing damage.

My situation above is more on a typical basis. i.e. docking. I think any boat, especially a powerboat cruising at 25 knots, hits a line of any type will cause a lot of damage.


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

$30k would replace my whole boat multiple times over. 

99% sailor.


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## pyewackette (Apr 2, 2011)

Question, if one runs over an anchor line on a boat that is unmarked in a channel, who is liable for the damage?

Second question, if one runs over a line of a crab trap in a channel, who is liable?


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## Lflowers230 (Jan 7, 2012)

Look peeps, 30k is a lot of money for a 'line' around a prop. Maybe he just mis-spoke.
I worked many years on a towboat that had eight foot diam wheels, had many mishaps of 1.5 cables getting caught in them. Never came close to 30K. Even if a diver couldn't get it and we had to go to dry-dock.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

I have had three wraps 

1) Hit a small piece of fishing net in the Pacific high while under power. It destroyed the transmission, no engine damage. Problem - no wind.

2) Wrapped prop with a non-floating painter. Got it off - no damage. Informed owner about polypropylene painters.

3) Gennaker sheet wrapped around prop. Got off - no damage.

I too have trouble believing $30K bill.


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## Kutter (Dec 11, 2006)

LakeSuperiorGeezer said:


> Someone I recently met said that a line accidently wrapped around the propeller could cause $30,000 damage to the engine. Is this an exaggeration? What kinds damage if any have you experienced?


No not an exaggeration, but maybe not that many doing that much damage. I've seen or been involved with two commercial fishing boats with reduction gearboxes that had serious damage. Because of the large reduction and high torque they don't notice until it's too late. The result has been that the gearbox is pulled off the engine, shaft is bent and if it has struts these are often bent and some hull damage is seen.

I've also come across a motor boat that had a rope between the shafts it pulled the shafts together so the props were nearly touching tearing the hull where the P brackets were mounted.

Another commercial vessel pulled the engine off its mounts breaking an oil line and the engine seized.

So new engine, new gearbox, new shaft, new P bracket/strut and hull repairs possible water damage can easily = $30K

Yachts do far less damage as they have less hp.

How do I know this? I supply shaver type shaft rope cutters and bearings


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

*I do know of one case where the line ripped the saildrive off the hull...*

... resulting in a sinking. Over $30,000 for certain.


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## sawingknots (Feb 24, 2005)

i once saw a large power boat get tangled in a crab pot,pulled the entire pot and all into one of the props,ruined i'm told a $3000 dollar prop and bent the shaft,depending on how much other damage it didn't look good,down in the gulf during stone crab season i've saw thousands of pots and if there was any particular formation i couldn't see it,the problem is during a heavy chop you can't spot them until its too late and yeah i've hooked them occasionally,i understand that the crabers are just trying to make a iving but i'm suprized the c.g. or dnr doesn't mandate some sort of pot free passage ways


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## -OvO- (Dec 31, 2011)

A commercial crab pot is ~ $100. You'd think the crabbers would get together and work this out among themselves to avoid losing traps.


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## sawingknots (Feb 24, 2005)

you would think!lol i followed a tow one time across one of those pot fields,the white bouys were poping up behind everywhere like confetti


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

Is there any way to create a weak point in the shaft that will let loose before everything starts getting twisted into a prezel?


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

Barquito said:


> Is there any way to create a weak point in the shaft that will let loose before everything starts getting twisted into a prezel?


Like a shear pin on an outboard?


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

How can a line wrap tear an engine off its mounts? I can see it twisting a shaft or strut if the engine is torquey enough but the MOUNTS? Surely it should just stall out before that even gets close.


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

I have no hands on experience with shaft cutters but they look impressive:

Rope cutter test - YouTube

Curious as to what drawbacks there might be?

Dabnis


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

The worst line-wrap damage I've ever seen was 15 years ago at Ocean City, Maryland's inlet. A 48-foot charter fishing boat, I believe it was either a Hatteras or Ocean, wrapped a length of hawser around the starboard prop. It snagged the strut, the strut snapped like a twig and the prop whipped around wildly on the bent shaft, sending the prop through the bottom of the boat and ripping a 4-foot gash. The boat sunk in less than a minute, it took most of the next day to remove the boat with a crane-barge. The damage was was in excess of $100,000 and the engine mounts at the base of the block actually snapped off.

In this case, much of the damage was done by the prop ripping out the boat's bottom. And, the engine was a 600-HP diesel revved up fairly high to punch through the standing wave at the end of the inlet.

Like everyone that has motored at night in Chesapeake Bay, I've managed to snag a crab pot or two. With the Atomic-4 the engine just stopped dead and I ended up anchoring up for the night, then going overboard the next morning to remove the line. Never experienced any damage from either event.

Cheers,

Gary


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

> Like a shear pin on an outboard?


Right. Line cutters would be the first line of defense. If that fails it would be nice to have something replaceable break.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

Barquito said:


> Right. Line cutters would be the first line of defense. If that fails it would be nice to have something replaceable break.


I think it would have to be inboard. I cannot imagine trying to fix something like that in our waters (PNW). The boat owner on one boat I was on donned a wet suit to get a wrapped gennaker sheet off the prop, but it was pretty quick.


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## christyleigh (Dec 17, 2001)

Barquito said:


> Is there any way to create a weak point in the shaft that will let loose before everything starts getting twisted into a prezel?


Yes, it's called a DriveSaver - http://www.globecomposite.com/pages/products_drivesaver
I installed one on my previous boat. The Nauticat comes standard with a similar although more complex coupling system.


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## LinekinBayCD (Oct 19, 2009)

pyewackette said:


> Question, if one runs over an anchor line on a boat that is unmarked in a channel, who is liable for the damage?
> 
> Second question, if one runs over a line of a crab trap in a channel, who is liable?


This just my guess and it might vary state to state.

1. If by channel you are referring to channels marked on a government chart such as the wide shipping channel on the Chesapeke then the marked or unmarked anchored boat might be liable to the passing boat who picked up his anchor rode or collided with the boat at night or in poor visibility. Might be different if the boat was disabled and a securitae was issued

If by channel you just mean a narrow entrance to a small cove then the anchored boat if properly marked with an anchor light or day signal should be OK with anyone who snagged his line. (i cant remember ever seeing a day signal for yan anchored boat) The offending boat would likey be on the hook for his own damage.

2. At least in Maine, lobstermen can put their pots just about anywhere. If you snag one and do some damage to your boat, well SOL. On the flip side if you need to free your prop and cutting a line is the only way to do it then it's SOL for their pot.

Just my guess.


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## sawingknots (Feb 24, 2005)

the solution is simple,don't snag a line or pot,give anchred boats a wide birth,uh huh


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

SK I have seen a couple of commercial traps set that they did not account for the tide. The traps were just under the surface.

Some private traps use floating line that extends away from the buoy.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

In Chesapeake Bay, it's illegal to set crab pots in any, marked (designated), navigable channel. Of course, the law is often completely ignored unless you contact the USCG and complain. There was a real problem with the pots in the mouth of the Gunpowder River for years, but the problem was quickly solved when the Park Service got enough calls to get the USCG involved. The pots owner was notified and told that in no uncertain terms they had to be moved out of the channel or they would not be there in the morning. Problem solved. If you check COMAR (Code of Maryland Regulations) you will find a section pertaining to this as well. My copy is more than 20 years old, but I don't believe this has changed.

Gary


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

Smaller lines just break, then you hear the prop cavitating with all that junk wrapped around. The bigger lines will make the motor stall. Since we are low rpm, not much danger of more damage...I know from personal experience. 

More junk in the water in the mallaca straits then i have ever seen before, except maybe in Indonesia, where we seemed to get tangled up in large pieces of plastic, there's a whole of shaking going on" when that junk gets wrapped around the prop and rudder...


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

travlineasy said:


> In Chesapeake Bay, it's illegal to set crab pots in any, marked (designated), navigable channel. Of course, the law is often completely ignored unless you contact the USCG and complain. There was a real problem with the pots in the mouth of the Gunpowder River for years, but the problem was quickly solved when the Park Service got enough calls to get the USCG involved. The pots owner was notified and told that in no uncertain terms they had to be moved out of the channel or they would not be there in the morning. Problem solved. If you check COMAR (Code of Maryland Regulations) you will find a section pertaining to this as well. My copy is more than 20 years old, but I don't believe this has changed. Gary


If you see a pot float in a channel, just cut the float off - they'll soon learn.

Fishermen are frequently like taxi drivers - they think they have more right to be there than anyone else because they are working.


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## LinekinBayCD (Oct 19, 2009)

SloopJonB said:


> If you see a pot float in a channel, just cut the float off - they'll soon learn.
> 
> Fishermen are frequently like taxi drivers - they think they have more right to be there than anyone else because they are working.


I think those who try to make a living on the water are the "burdened" vessels. We recreational sailors are the "i give way" vessels. It's a small inconvenience to cut them a little slack by avoiding their traps and boats while they are working. 
I can think of at least three or four instances in the last few years where Maine lobsterman came to the rescue of recreational boaters. When the nearest CG station may be 50 miles away they could be your only help in a bad situation

If you practice what you preach you ought to come to Maine to try it. Hopefully you can demonstrate the strength of your convictions by doing the cutting in full view of the lobsterman not like a thief in the night.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

LakeSuperiorGeezer said:


> Someone I recently met said that a line accidently wrapped around the propeller could cause $30,000 damage to the engine. Is this an exaggeration? What kinds damage if any have you experienced?


Hmmmm..... so between my two boats that I have owned I should have done about 90K of damage so far.

And yet all I've paid is for one tank of air so I could cut away the 12foot long putting rug that I sucked into my prop aperture and wrapped 16 times around the prop and shaft. No damage despite the engine going from 2400rpm to ZEROrpm instantly.

I would think that any marine architect that didn't design the likelihood of wrapping a line around the prop into the system is designing weak boats...

MedSailor


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

LinekinBayCD said:


> I think those who try to make a living on the water are the "burdened" vessels. We recreational sailors are the "i give way" vessels. It's a small inconvenience to cut them a little slack by avoiding their traps and boats while they are working.
> I can think of at least three or four instances in the last few years where Maine lobsterman came to the rescue of recreational boaters. When the nearest CG station may be 50 miles away they could be your only help in a bad situation
> 
> If you practice what you preach you ought to come to Maine to try it. Hopefully you can demonstrate the strength of your convictions by doing the cutting in full view of the lobsterman not like a thief in the night.


I always cut working watermen a lot of slack, as I do racers, towboats etc. BUT when they start using navigation channels as the fishing ground, laying lobster pots or nets where we are SUPPOSED to be operating, then they lose their rights. I haven't run into the situation you described but if I did and it was causing people problems, I'd have no problem with a little vigilantism.

Respect runs both ways.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I am frustrated by pots inside a tight channel. I've seen them block an entire entrance to a harbor in Maine, which simply surprises me. Are pots and lines so inexpensive in Maine that the lobsterman can afford to lose them to props? I thought RI was tough until I went to Maine.

However, they certainly don't lose any rights. Cutting them intentionally is criminal. However, I have no remorse if my prop cutter does its job in a busy channel, despite my best efforts.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

MedSailor said:


> Hmmmm..... so between my two boats that I have owned I should have done about 90K of damage so far.
> 
> And yet all I've paid is for one tank of air so I could cut away the 12foot long putting rug that I sucked into my prop aperture and wrapped 16 times around the prop and shaft. No damage despite the engine going from 2400rpm to ZEROrpm instantly.
> 
> ...


Like a lot of things in sailing, it depends. The small piece of fishing net that attacked our prop shaft and propeller also destroyed the transmission. No engine damage, luckily. That was beyond anything for which a marine architect could design.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Minnewaska said:


> I am frustrated by pots inside a tight channel. I've seen them block an entire entrance to a harbor in Maine, which simply surprises me. Are pots and lines so inexpensive in Maine that the lobsterman can afford to lose them to props? I thought RI was tough until I went to Maine.
> 
> However, they certainly don't lose any rights. Cutting them intentionally is criminal. However, I have no remorse if my prop cutter does its job in a busy channel, despite my best efforts.


Clearing a navigation channel of obstructions is criminal? To my mind, the person OBSTRUCTING the navigation channel for their own selfish purposes is the criminal, if anyone is.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SloopJonB said:


> Clearing a navigation channel of obstructions is criminal? To my mind, the person OBSTRUCTING the navigation channel for their own selfish purposes is the criminal, if anyone is.


While I don't like it, I'm not aware of a law against it. Are you?

If I went around intentionally damaging peoples property when they did things I didn't like, there would be a ton of broken stuff around.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Minnewaska said:


> While I don't like it, I'm not aware of a law against it. Are you?
> 
> If I went around intentionally damaging peoples property when they did things I didn't like, there would be a ton of broken stuff around.


So if a Taxi driver parked across your driveway while he waited for a call, you'd just wait for him to move? How about a moving van blocking the street all day while they load the contents of someones house? What's the difference?

Obviously, the pots in a channel situation should be dealt with by the authorities but we all know that ain't going to happen.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SloopJonB said:


> So if a Taxi driver parked across your driveway while he waited for a call, you'd just wait for him to move? How about a moving van blocking the street all day while they load the contents of someones house? What's the difference?
> 
> Obviously, the pots in a channel situation should be dealt with by the authorities but we all know that ain't going to happen.


Sloop, there are laws against blocking a road or driveway. If you go up to the vehicle and damage it, you are breaking one too.

Again, while I do not like pots in the channel,I am not aware of any law against it and it doesn't seem you are either.

Let's agree that these are a real PITA, but you can't intentionally cut the float off. As I've said, I have no remorse if my prop cutter does the job despite my best effort to maneuver around. They seem to have taken their chances in a busy channel.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Minnewaska said:


> Sloop, there are laws against blocking a road or driveway. If you go up to the vehicle and damage it, you are breaking one too.
> 
> Again, while I do not like pots in the channel,I am not aware of any law against it and it doesn't seem you are either.
> 
> Let's agree that these are a real PITA, but you can't intentionally cut the float off. As I've said, I have no remorse if my prop cutter does the job despite my best effort to maneuver around. They seem to have taken their chances in a busy channel.


I wasn't suggesting trashing such a vehicle - but I sure would get it towed in a heartbeat. Perhaps instead of cutting off the float, lifting the pot and putting it ashore would suit you better? That would be more akin to having them towed.

A personal example that may give you a better picture of how I act in the real world - I live about a mile from a major ferry terminal. In the summer and on long weekends, numerous people will park their vehicles on our street for days simply to avoid paying for parking at the ferry terminal lot while they walk onto the ferry. There is very limited street parking here at the best of times so they really cause the residents a problem.

I leave a note on their windshield, politely advising them of the situation and that it's not a ferry parking area. I also advise them that they will be towed if they repeat it. So far no-one has.

I'm not an Admiralty lawyer but I'm sure there must be regulations against intentionally obstructing a navigation channel - I don't believe it is legal to anchor in one for example. That's how they cleared the anchored boats out of False Creek here.

Luckily for me (or perhaps the crabbers ) it isn't a problem here.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

Minnewaska said:


> Again, while I do not like pots in the channel,I am not aware of any law against it and it doesn't seem you are either....
> 
> .... They seem to have taken their chances in a busy channel.


I know in Maryland it is clearly stated that pots cannot be set in any marked channel, not within certain proximity to beaches and marinas, and not within state or city mooring fields. This is in the crabbing regulations.

However, the crabs are often at the edge of the channels or around the shoals the markers indicate, so they cut it a little thin. As regards anchorage areas, well, it's a shared resource.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

I have a stainless blade bolted to my deadwood , razor sharp on the outside , pointing at a 45 degree angle to my shaft, just touching the prop hub. Any line trying to tighten around the shaft is instantly sliced, as it tightens across the blade. All boats should have some kind of line slicer at the prop shaft. That quickly and simply solves the crab pot lines in the channel problem, far more effectively than any government bureaucracy ever could. As anyone can do this, those who don't lose their bitching rights over crab pot lines,( or excessive government bureaucracy)...


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SloopJonB said:


> ........I'm sure there must be regulations against intentionally obstructing a navigation channel ......


That's the point. If there is, then you should "have them towed", not take matters into your own hands. If there isn't, then you can't take your whim out on a law abiding citizen.


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

I once wrapped a polypropylene line around my propeller. The line was attached to a cinder block. When the cinder block connected with my MaxProp, all three blades were torn and dog-eared and the engine stalled. 

PYI repaired the prop for about $400. The drive train seemed none the worse for wear.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

SloopJonB said:


> If you see a pot float in a channel, just cut the float off - they'll soon learn.


You would be very wise to know the laws of your state or province before doing that, or taking the law into your own hands. In Maine there are no restrictions on the placement of lobster gear (other than certain "management zones"). Cut a pot buoy just for the sake of being a vigilante, cause you just don't like where it was placed, and you're likely to get shot up here. These guys think nothing of shooting each other or sinking another guys boat let alone what they'd do to a guy just, at will, cutting pot buoys free...

A guy in our mooring field learned the hard way. He didn't like the fact that a local lobsterman had placed a trap close to his mooring. HIS BOAT NEVER CAME IN CONTACT WITH IT. But he cut it free anyway. He then was bitching about it on the launch and word got back to the lobsterman.

The guy was an "out of stater" and used his boat maybe once every other weekend. When he came back he found his cockpit filled with two 55 gallon drums worth of used, rotted bait and the scuppers had been plugged to keep it there. I suspect his boat was a total loss as you could smell it a mile away. He left Maine shortly there after, finding NO local support for his actions, and as far as I know he never returned.

If caught, and nursing your gun shot wound, you'll also be required to reimburse the lobsterman for TWICE the cost of the gear lost. Many guys run strings of 3-12 traps per string, depending upon the zone, so you can easily be talking reimbursements of $3000.00+ or more of gear replacement plus your civil fines. You would HOPE you only cut a triple string....

_*4. Restitution. If a person violates this section by cutting a lobster trap line, the court shall:

A. Order that person to pay to the owner of the trap line that was cut an amount equal to twice the replacement value of all traps lost as a result of that cutting; and [2007, c. 695, Pt. A, §15 (RPR).]*_

I've sailed for over 40 years along the Northern New England coast and Maritimes and rarely catch a pot. The only time I do is when they use "toggles".

In some instances it is safer for both you and the lobsterman to "cut" the pot buoy. This often prevents you from dragging one string across the bottom over another string and causing a multi-hundred dollar string tangle that now involves four or five fisherman.

I don't know a guy who would argue with you for cutting his string free with the explanation;

_"I didn't want to drag your string across four others on the bottom and cause a massive tangle so I cut it to prevent that. I'm very sorry I was unable to re-attach the buoy, I tried, but the current/wind was too strong"_

An "accidental tangle" and the "need" to cut a buoy is a LOT different than simply "at will" cutting pot buoys free because they are in an area where you've single handily decided they don't belong. Even if you have the law on your side you are still, in most cases, breaking the law.



SloopJonB said:


> Fishermen are frequently like taxi drivers - they think they have more right to be there than anyone else because they are working.


I won't even comment on that one... I will just say, they are WORKING and putting food on the table, which is NOT easy to do at a $5.00 per gallon dock price, and you are PLAYING... Come on cut the guys some slack...


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Maine Sail said:


> An "accidental tangle" and the "need" to cut a buoy is a LOT different than simply "at will" cutting pot buoys free because they are in an area where you've single handily decided they don't belong. Even if you have the law on your side you are still, in most cases, breaking the law.


I guess it's a good thing I live on the west coast - they aren't a problem here. 

Also, I never said or implied I'd consider cutting a pot float because I " single handedly decided they don't belong." I made it pretty clear I was referring to pots dropped in a navigation channel. Refer to post #36 that describes them blocking a harbour entrance. Just WHO is at fault here and who is acting high handedly?


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## Boasun (Feb 10, 2007)

You can say that it will never happen to you. But once you've made that brag, It Will.
lines wrapped around the shaft are incidences that you have to live with. Either know a diver who'll dive on your boat for nada, Pay for one or do it yourself... the choice is yours. 52 sea going years. Have had line, wire rope and chain wrapped around the shafts on the vessels that I've sailed on. So far no damage to shafts, trannies or engines themselves. Most of the time it was the person who was on watch that we'll blame when the vessel snagged. But when I was sailing as Captain... the resonsibility for said incidence still fell on my sholders, even if I wasn't on the bridge when it happened. But then if you want to be Captain, you will have to take on other people's mistakes. And if you don't want the responsibilities, then don't call yourself a Captain and go work in a burger shop.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SloopJonB said:


> If you see a pot float in a channel, just cut the float off - they'll soon learn.......





SloopJonB said:


> ....Also, I never said or implied I'd consider cutting a pot float because I " single handedly decided they don't belong." I made it pretty clear I was referring to pots dropped in a navigation channel. Refer to post #36 that describes them blocking a harbour entrance. Just WHO is at fault here and who is acting high handedly?


It reads to me like you are single handedly deciding they don't belong.

None of us are happy about maneuvering around the pots in a channel, but as MaineSail points out, there is no law against it in these parts. You just can't cut the pot to teach them a lesson, as you suggested.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

SloopJonB said:


> I guess it's a good thing I live on the west coast - they aren't a problem here.
> 
> Also, I never said or implied I'd consider cutting a pot float because I " single handedly decided they don't belong." I made it pretty clear I was referring to pots dropped in a navigation channel. Refer to post #36 that describes them blocking a harbour entrance. Just WHO is at fault here and who is acting high handedly?


There are a great many things in the world I see that I don't like. There is a crabber that loves to string his trot line right in front of my slip; often I have to straddle the floats, but I work with the situation.


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

Connecticut has a statute on fishing gear in channels, fairways and mooring fields, excerpted here: 
"26-142a-3a. Area-gear restrictions--- 
(d) No fixed commercial fishing gear shall be set at any time within any navigable channel as indicated by United States Coast Guard channel markers or within any fairway as designated by an approved harbor management plan adopted under Chapter 444a of the General Statutes. No fixed fishing gear shall be set in any mooring area as designated by an approved harbor management plan adopted under Chapter 444a of the General Statutes during the period May 1 through October 15."

That said, we've seen a number of pots showing up in the Mystic River over the past several years. The pots tend to be placed at the edge of the channel, but the floats can impede the channel, depending on wind and tide. I am not aware of anyone cutting the lines, even though they can be found in congested turning areas near the RR swing bridge, nor am I aware of any formal complaints to our Harbor Commission, whose ordinance cites the State statute in this regard.


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## LinekinBayCD (Oct 19, 2009)

SloopJonB said:


> Also, I never said or implied I'd consider cutting a pot float because I " single handedly decided they don't belong." I made it pretty clear I was referring to pots dropped in a navigation channel. Refer to post #36 that describes them blocking a harbour entrance. Just WHO is at fault here and who is acting high handedly?


Ya sure gave that impression.



SloopJonB said:


> If you see a pot float in a channel, just cut the float off - they'll soon learn.
> 
> Fishermen are frequently like taxi drivers - they think they have more right to be there than anyone else because they are working.


Navigation channel or not don't try it in Maine.


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## tomperanteau (Jun 4, 2009)

We once wrapped some line from part of our running around the prop. We drifted against a dock where cargo ships unload. Had about 20 people from the unloading crew at the dock helping us steady her (and laughing at us) until help arrived. The port patrol stopped by (again, laughing at us), and stated that it looked like we were okay.

We got hauled back and during the next hull cleaning had the line cut off the prop shaft. Cost? $50. Experience? Priceless.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

SloopJonB said:


> *Also, I never said or implied I'd consider cutting a pot float because I " single handedly decided they don't belong." I made it pretty clear I was referring to pots dropped in a navigation channel.*


It seems to me as if you're still suggesting it is okay to cut a pot if it is placed in a "navigation channel".?? That is vigilante style law enforcement which is frowned upon and illegal everywhere I know of. It is not your job or my job to enforce local, state or federal laws no matter how much it may anger me to see people breaking a law. It is my duty to report a violation but not to take the law into my own hands.

My point is that even if they are "illegally" blocking a channel, which in Maine they would not be, that it is still illegal to take the law into your own hands as you've suggested on a multinational forum.

In Maine you CAN place gear & traps in anchorages, mooring fields, "harbor entrances" and "navigation channels" and do so LEGALLY. The suggestion to cut them, on a forum read by people all over the world, can have implications beyond what your local laws may be. Ours laws on gear placement are very different and it is not illegal to block a "harbor entrance" or to place gear in a "navigation channel"....

I would hate for someone to read here that placing lobster gear in a "navigational channel" is illegal and cutting the pot buoys is ok to do. In Maine there are no restrictions on where the pots can be placed (other than some resource management zones). This is why I opened my post with;

*"You would be very wise to know the laws of your state or province before doing that, or taking the law into your own hands."*

I would guess that in most areas the only people allowed to touch fishing gear are the owners of it and the law enforcement agencies regulating and monitoring it. In Maine those are the only two groups allowed to touch fishing gear, owners and law enforcement.

IMHO suggesting the cutting of fishing gear, even if it is placed there illegally, is similar to suggesting running someone off the road because they were "illegally" speeding.

Two wrongs don't make a right and making yourself the "law enforcer" is also not the right thing to do......

In some areas up here you'd need a pretty sharp knife to clear the channel..


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

My line wrap ended up costing me around $3k. What happened was, it bent the bronze strut, instead of the shaft. This wasn't visible until I had the boat hauled. So with the haul-out, digging through the fairing to where the strut was attached to the hull, straightening, and then re-bedding and re-fairing, it took about a week to set it right. And off course, alignment had to be checked. Oh, and it took like 3 hours just to get the cutlass bearing out.

So, it can get expensive and remember to check your strut, as well as your shaft (if you have a stand alone strut).


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## xymotic (Mar 4, 2005)

SloopJonB said:


> I wasn't suggesting trashing such a vehicle - but I sure would get it towed in a heartbeat. Perhaps instead of cutting off the float, lifting the pot and putting it ashore would suit you better? That would be more akin to having them towed.
> 
> A personal example that may give you a better picture of how I act in the real world - I live about a mile from a major ferry terminal. In the summer and on long weekends, numerous people will park their vehicles on our street for days simply to avoid paying for parking at the ferry terminal lot while they walk onto the ferry. There is very limited street parking here at the best of times so they really cause the residents a problem.
> 
> ...


Think again. I once had a guy park in my driveway completely blocking it. The police would not tow it because it was on private property. The Tow Company would, I __I__ paid them $200.

I now have a signed contract with a tow company and marked signs so they'll come and tag the offender, but it's not 'normal' to tow somebody else's car.

Same with pots, yes, they might be totally illegal, but it's not your job to correct it. Molesting someone else's *anything* is illegal.


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## sawingknots (Feb 24, 2005)

thus far getting tangled in a misplaced crab pot has only cost me a little time and aggravation,but if one ever tears up something/shaft/prop etc i'll join sloopjon's side pretty quickly,intentually placing such an obstruction in a boat channel is just wrong,you know it,i know it and the crabbers know it!


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Maine Sail said:


>


Looking at that picture I'm surprised the pot owners get any support from anyone who goes on the water - I've never seen such an incredible display of piggish, selfish use of the water. How you can operate a boat in that mess is beyond me.


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## sawingknots (Feb 24, 2005)

exactly,the reason the crabbers put their pots in channals is because there's too many crabbers and not enough legitimate crabbing area to go around,maybe its time to increase crabbing licences and penalties,i also wonder if maine sail is a sailor or in the business of repairing boats damaged by crab pots! uh huh


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SloopJonB said:


> Looking at that picture I'm surprised the pot owners get any support from anyone who goes on the water - I've never seen such an incredible display of piggish, selfish use of the water. How you can operate a boat in that mess is beyond me.


I've never heard a commercial vessel Captain complain. That says something.


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## sawingknots (Feb 24, 2005)

i'm quessing big comercial boats have shafts and props built to withstand crab pots, i once followed a tow pushing about 10 lighters across a crabpot field in the gulf and the floats were poping up behind like shreded confetti,i guess crabs are fairly valuble


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

sawingknots said:


> exactly,the reason the crabbers put their pots in channals is because there's too many crabbers and not enough legitimate crabbing area to go around,maybe its time to increase crabbing licences and penalties,i also wonder if maine sail is a sailor or in the business of repairing boats damaged by crab pots! uh huh


Aaahhh, your just saying that to justify your screen name.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Minnewaska said:


> I've never heard a commercial vessel Captain complain. That says something.


Indeed it might. But then again, maybe Sawingknots has a point as well - perhaps their gear is simply big enough that they don't have to care. Around here debris in the water from logging and log tows presents a vaguely similar situation. The tug skippers around here don't seem to worry about floating logs and deadheads because they can simply brush them aside. Small boats, not so much.

The indignant responses here to what I thought was a not unreasonable response to a clearly unreasonable "provocation" has certainly illustrated a cultural or attitude difference between the East & West coast water people. I've never run across a situation quite like the crab trap mess you face back East. I've heard complaints from some people about the Salmon farms out here but that's mostly because they fill up some nice coves, not that they impede navigation and/or cause expensive damage to other peoples boats.

How do you deal with night navigation when you have situations like that shown in the picture? What happens when boats arrive at night from other areas? Do they just have to stand off until daylight?

Anyway, I stand suitably chastened and hereby publicly promise not to sail in those waters, or, failing that, I will not carry any edged weapons on my person. :hothead


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## Kutter (Dec 11, 2006)

dabnis said:


> I have no hands on experience with shaft cutters but they look impressive:
> 
> Rope cutter test - YouTube
> 
> ...


This test did not include the quicKutter shaver cutter, which has proved to be more effective and robust and has replaced spurs cutters on UK RNLI (cosatguard) and Royal Navy vessels. The test method was flawed as they fixed one end of debris to the Strut, this then pulled the debris close to the shaft and across the scissor cutters.

The type of wrap that causes the damage was not tested, this is when a rope is caught by th eprop blade and is rotating with the shaft and winding onto the shaft between the prop and the last bearing carrier (stern tube or strut) the build up of th erope/debris here exerts a force that is trying to pull the shaft aft or push the bearing carrier forwards. With a strut this can get bent, with a stern tube the weakest link gives, and this has proved to be either the gearbox bolts/studs or the engine mounts. With a yacht you will generally stall the engine before this happens.

I experienced broken engine mounts thanks to debris on prop causing massive inbalance vibration, as it was a sail drive the assembly was shaken so violently the engine tore itself off the mounts before I could kill it.

That photo of all those pots looked quite a challenge, not sure I'd be happy gping in there at night.


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## Kutter (Dec 11, 2006)

SloopJonB said:


> I
> A personal example that may give you a better picture of how I act in the real world - I live about a mile from a major ferry terminal. In the summer and on long weekends, numerous people will park their vehicles on our street for days simply to avoid paying for parking at the ferry terminal lot while they walk onto the ferry. There is very limited street parking here at the best of times so they really cause the residents a problem.
> 
> I leave a note on their windshield, politely advising them of the situation and that it's not a ferry parking area. I also advise them that they will be towed if they repeat it. So far no-one has.


Do you own the road or is it a public state owned road?

If it's a privately owned street that's Ok, however of it is a state owned/maintained road then don't they have as much right to park there as residents? The use of the roads is governed by the state and if the cars are legal, and there are no parking restrictions, these people are not breaking any laws then they are entitled to park there. If you happen to live in an area where there is demand for free parking (near a ferry terminal) then you can expect to find the road full of people looking for free parking. If your road is public then you have to live with that or move.

I do this when I fly from one large airport, I park my car in a residential area on the street where there are no restrictions when I fly out of town. There is no charge and I'm not breaking any laws. In my street sometimes I come home and I have to park 200yds from my house in the street as the road is full of cars of people eating in the local pub, thats fine I get the benefit of living near a pub.

You benefit from living walking distance from the ferry.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

Kutter

That may depend on where you live.

My in-laws live a few blocks from a university. Street parking for non-residents is limited to 2 hours. Residents and guests have to display a parking permit.

In another part of town some residents are selling their guest parking permits for up to $700. The city is putting a stop to that.


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## sawingknots (Feb 24, 2005)

i'm sensing that in maine the rights of crabbers superceed everyone elses! they say when in rome do as........,i've never been to rome nor plan to,ditto for the fine state of maine,down in my neck of the woods laws and peoples rights pretty much applys to everyone and when they don't all men bleed equally that seems to give inconcitorate people like crabbers pause


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## LinekinBayCD (Oct 19, 2009)

sawingknots said:


> i'm sensing that in maine the rights of crabbers superceed everyone elses! they say when in rome do as........,i've never been to rome nor plan to,ditto for the fine state of maine,down in my neck of the woods laws and peoples rights pretty much applys to everyone and when they don't all men bleed equally that seems to give inconcitorate people like crabbers pause


It's not as bad as it may appear in the pictures to navigate through the lobster pots, even a tight entrance to a small cove. It does require concentration but it does not prevent anyone from entering any harbor they desire. Its a little daunghting at first but after a while its not really that bad. The laws do apply the same to everyone. The lobsterman can put their pots where they want and recreational boaters can go where ever they want.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Kutter said:


> Do you own the road or is it a public state owned road?
> 
> If it's a privately owned street that's Ok, however of it is a state owned/maintained road then don't they have as much right to park there as residents? The use of the roads is governed by the state and if the cars are legal, and there are no parking restrictions, these people are not breaking any laws then they are entitled to park there. If you happen to live in an area where there is demand for free parking (near a ferry terminal) then you can expect to find the road full of people looking for free parking. If your road is public then you have to live with that or move.
> 
> ...


Actually, it isn't legal here to leave cars parked on the street for extended periods if you are a non-resident.

As an aside, the situation here can mean that I and other neighbours have to park up to three blocks from our homes where our cars are much more vulnerable to theft etc. In such a situation, leaving one's car in a residential neighbourhood for extended periods, using the obviously very limited parking available to the residents, just so one can save a buck on parking, qualifies one to most people as a completely selfish and boorish @$$hole.

And as for living within walking distance of the ferry - you might have a point if I ever walked on, but I don't - when I take it I need my car.


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## sawingknots (Feb 24, 2005)

i have no problem with crab pots in coves or out of the way areas but navigational channels are a completely different matter,durring periods of choppy water you can't see them until its too late,i can't imagine a boater just plowing across a pot buoy for the hell of it


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I wrapped a line from a pot, while motor sailing about 15-20 miles off shore from Boston in 150ish feet of water. It was a loner, black buoys, very hard to see. My line cutter didn't get it at first, but on the first attempt in reverse, I heard it chunk through and float out from under the boat. 

I was very surprised to see it out there (obviously too late). Then about every quarter to half mile I saw another. The subsequent ones were bright yellow and even had radar reflectors on pennants above them. Those were easily avoidable. I felt badly about the one I accidentally cut, given how expensive it must be to place out there. However, black buoys in choppy water aren't very smart either.


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## sawingknots (Feb 24, 2005)

i'm betting the crabbers don't cry much when a boater is shelling out hard earned dollars for damage the pots caused


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## sawingknots (Feb 24, 2005)

on second thought maybe i shouldn't say that,i'm sure that most crabbers are hard working honest people,i expect the biggest problem is lack of exceptable areas to crab in[too many crabbers,too few fish and game wardens]


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Honest, maybe most. Hard working, all for sure. Care about damaged caused to your prop, none.


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