# Baggy Mainsail question...too much outhaul?



## NewportNewbie (Jul 30, 2011)

My main has been floppy and baggy and when I first got the boat I couldn't get the main tensioned no matter what I did. I didn't have a vang on it. Once I put the vang on it, now I can keep it tensioned...its holding its shape much nicer, except there is still a pocket and almost a crease. The previous owner said that he was trying to remove the bags by tensioning the outhaul...but in my opinion the foot of the sail is very tight..maybe too tight. This pic is from my sail today. Shows a VERY tight foot, with a baggy pocket above it. My thoughts were ease the outhaul a bit, that would make the bagginess more uniform, then tension the vang to try and remove all the bagginess...thoughts? It seems that the vang now is just below flat, how much past horizontal is it ok to go if I go that route? Thx!


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## monet (Mar 2, 2012)

Yep too much outhaul but you need lots more some luff tension. Looks patchy too - maybe the track is sticky? Crank on the halyard or cunningham.


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## celenoglu (Dec 13, 2008)

The halyard is loose. Tighten the halyard. If not possible,the sail might be too high for your mast. Either adjust the size of the sail or try to lower the goose neck connection on the mast.


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## NewportNewbie (Jul 30, 2011)

don't think I can get tighter on the halyard...I got a few extra cranks with the winch once it went all the way up. it could be too long for the boat, but its been on the boat for 15 years or so...cant imagine that North Sails botched it and the previous owner didn't get it fixed...maybe it stretched? Lower the goose neck connection??? boy do i have lots to learn...lol. Will look at the cunningham as well.


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## weinie (Jun 21, 2008)

I had a similar issue after receiving a mismatched sail. Although its hard to see all the way to the top of the mast, you should be able to feel and hear if the headboard or shackle is hitting the masthead versus not having enough tension on the halyard. Its easier if you try this at the dock with zero wind.


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

Santana should also have a cunningham... More halyard tension sure and ease off a bit on outhaul, but cunningham allows you to bring those crinkles out if the halyard is stretched a bit... and your up as much as it'll go.
Cunningham looks like this - note in this picture the owner hasn't tightened his cunningham:


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## jimrafford (Jan 7, 2011)

1. Halyard tension
2. Cunningham
3. Sail is 15 years old. Replace it
Jim


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Agree with everyone else-

Not enough luff tension. When you hoist the sail at the dock, step away, and use a pair of binoculors to see if the headboard really is as high as it can possibly go.

If it is, see if you can apply enough cunningham to tighten the luff. If you can't, then the sail really needs to be replaced, or a least cut down a little.

If you have a fixed gooseneck, don't go altering the mast so that you can drop the boom, just replace the sail. I have a "floating boom". Older boats had this instead of a cunningham. The boom/gooseneck rides a short track and you'd apply a downhaul to tighten the luff.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

SHNOOL said:


> ...
> Cunningham looks like this - note in this picture the owner hasn't tightened his cunningham:


That is a reefing line, there is no cunningham rigged....


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

Sail does not look all that bad and until you get enough movement out of the haylard or cunningham the draft will be in the wrong place and it will look like it looks


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## AllThumbs (Jul 12, 2008)

I had a sail where the bolt rope had shrunk in the sail. Couldn't get the wrinkles out not matter the halyard tension. I had to cut the bolt rope stitches in the luff at the bottom of the sail (rope was stitched in at very top and bottom only) and allow the bolt rope to slide up into the luff. I restitched the bolt rope in about 6" above the foot and all was well after that.


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## Gary3675 (Jul 17, 2006)

First thing would be to rig a Cunningham......can't tell from the picture if you have an eyelet for that. I think (100%) that will fix your problem. Also the foot should be tight and the vang also going upwind in a breeze. Top batten should be parallel to the boom. Those wrinkles may be over bend wrinkles.....do you have your back stay pulled tight. If so try letting off on the backstay and see if they go away. Cunningham should get rid of those.....


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## WDS123 (Apr 2, 2011)

Halyard boltrope
Cuningham

Ease mainsheet & work traveler


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## SimonV (Jul 6, 2006)

The leach looks very tight. Release the main sheet and boom vang before tightening the main halyard.


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

sailingfool said:


> That is a reefing line, there is no cunningham rigged....


Tru dat... sorry used this guys boat as an example where mine is! Right next to that on my boat is the cunningham, run through the grommet just below his... He's got his reef run up and through, I have my cunningham run below that and around...

Same diff... and YEP he could use the reef line as a cunningham if he wants more tension on the luff (assuming his runs the same way).

Like others said, if your boom is fixed, and you know your main is all the way up... then cunningham on to tighten, if it still looks sad, it's time to get the luff rope shortened cause it's stretched... better would be a new mainsail.

Try sailcare to repair this one if that's the case...


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## nolatom (Jun 29, 2005)

Use a smaller shackle or knot at the peak, you could save a couple of inches that way, and hence need less Cunningham to get the luff taut.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Without being able to see the top and bottom, it's hard to guess where the problem might be. Do you have a downhaul or any method of tensioning the luff? In any case, with that amount of slack in the sail, it is seriously affecting performance. Getting tension on the luff is probably the most important trim factor in the entire rig. When you fix it, you'll see a big difference in balance and upwind performance.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Can the topping be let out a little to drop the end of the boom? Is the leech tight? Cant see in the picture. I would measure the luff of the sail and compare it to the dimensions for your San Juan.

How about reefing the main at the dock and looking at the baggyiness then, If you have the ame problem it would be something other than the halyard tension.

You may have a sail cut for another boat.

Dave


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## weinie (Jun 21, 2008)

I'm no expert, but perhaps the forestay and backstay aren't tensioned correctly?


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

jimrafford said:


> 1. Halyard tension
> 2. Cunningham
> 3. Sail is 15 years old. Replace it
> 
> Jim


This^^^^^

at least have a sailmaker look at it for a re-cut if funds are tight.


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

weinie said:


> I'm no expert, but perhaps the forestay and backstay aren't tensioned correctly?


No. It's way beyond that. Back stay flattens the middle of the sail (outhaul, the bottom) and opens up the top if the rig bends enough... It's just a sail that's in poor condition and needs some work. If funds are available, it should be replaced.


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## NewportNewbie (Jul 30, 2011)

I'll start with raising the sail WITHOUT tension from the vang or the main sheet. Both were tightened down before raising. Maybe it's that simple.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

NewportNewbie said:


> I'll start with raising the sail WITHOUT tension from the vang or the main sheet. Both were tightened down before raising. Maybe it's that simple.


Indeed... could well be. If a cunningham is not rigged that would be a good move, esp if you're long on the luff.


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## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

I would try:

1. Halyard tension.
2. Cunningham.
3. Then I would try to play with the backstay to see if you can put a little mast bend to take some of the bag out of the middle.
4. Maybe get a quote for a recut. 

Are you racing? If not, just enjoy!


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## imiloa (Mar 17, 2004)

Bolt rope shrinkage may be the issue. Over time the repeated tensioning and relaxing of the luff bolt rope actually causes it to shorten. Eventually this prevents the full hoist of the main. I had an older main that I thought was blown out. It had symptoms very similar to what you've described. I had a sailmaker take a look at it and he identified the problem and fixed it for minimal cost and the sail was fine.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Vang and mainsheet tension before hoisting explains a lot. Newport – note that you have good luff tension from the spreaders up and a tight leach. This is the tell-tale sign. A couple of other things to point out on your picture: Your lower batten is inverted. You never want to sail this way as the compression loads will try to break it. You need to really watch for this when running deep. Second, your main is stretched. See the scallops between the full battens? The battens are stretching your sail. Too late to do anything about it now. But the good news is full battens will help correct many of the problems associated with a stretched main and you can sail it for more years to come albeit with some degraded performance.


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## BarryL (Aug 21, 2003)

Whoa,

You should never raise the main with tension on the main sheet or vang. If you try to do that, you will have the halyard fighting the sheet and you won't be able to get proper halyard tension.

To raise the main make sure the topping lift is on, then ease main sheet and / or vang. Tension the main halyard until the leech is smooth without wrinkles. If it's real windy then tighten the halyard a little more. Finally, ease the topping lift, trim the sheet and you're on your way.

Barry



NewportNewbie said:


> I'll start with raising the sail WITHOUT tension from the vang or the main sheet. Both were tightened down before raising. Maybe it's that simple.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

NewportNewbie said:


> I'll start with raising the sail WITHOUT tension from the vang or the main sheet. Both were tightened down before raising. Maybe it's that simple.


I also never can get enough luff tension by just the main haylard alone. What I need to do is fully raise the main sail, then use the cunningham to get proper tension. All my sail slides operate smoothly but for some reason this is the only way I can get proper tension.

With no tension on vang and main sheet, raising main then using cunningham, I think you will be in much better shape.


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

That sail is not properly raised (look at the 'scallops' between the slugs) ... the luff is not stretched out to remove the preload in the boltrope. 
If the sail is too big for the the mast track, get it cut to proper luff size. Careful/precise measurement of the mast sail track is required.

Probably 95% of all non-racing sailors never correctly raise their woven dacron mainsails ... and have bagginess (even with brand new sails!) and sailing performance problems. 
Here's *how to properly raise* a boltroped dacron mainsail, and also includes what to do if the boltrope has 'shrunken' due to 'aging' (even if the sail is too large for the mast dimension): How to properly RAISE a woven dacron mainsail - SailboatOwners.com

Edit - Barry and Casey have it absolutely correct: there MUST be no load from the mainsheet, vang, etc. when raising a sail. 
;-)


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## Sublime (Sep 11, 2010)

RichH said:


> That sail is not properly raised ... the luff is not stretched out to remove the preload in the boltrope.
> If the sail is too big for the the mast track, get it cut to proper luff size. Careful/precise measurement of the mast sail track is required.
> 
> Probably 95% of all non-racing sailors never correctly raise their woven dacron mainsails ... and have bagginess (even with brand new sails!) and sailing performance problems.
> ...


^He knows his stuff. 
I followed his guide on mine and simply raising the main properly corrected a bunch of issues I was having.


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