# Durabak non-skid: Complete failure! How to get rid of the stuff?



## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

If you open this month's Practical Sailor (page 5), you will find that they updated their recommendations for non-skid. In 2012, one of the highest rated products was Durabak, really a truck-bed liner but it tested well as a non-skid. Now it is downgraded to FAIR, their second-lowest grade. The reason is that, while nice when freshly applied, Durabak is a complete failure on the long term! It may be a great product for a pickup truck but, as PS now found out, on boat decks if peels off and leaves a mess after two years or so.

This is exactly what is happening to my deck! The Durabak layer is internally decomposing. It is disintegrating with parts of it peeling off in small flakes which are getting everywhere, leaving behind a grayish component that looks like flat paint being left behind on the deck. This "paint" is essentially smooth so there is zero non-skid any more on increasingly large areas of my deck. Not only is this cosmetically a catastrophe (the deck looks like sh*t, and the flakes are carried everywhere, including into the cabin) but it is becoming a safety hazard.

It is nice that PS is now warning potential customers about this but it is too late for me, I am (literally) stuck with the stuff on my deck.

So, my question: *How can I get rid of the stuff? * The paint-like stuff clings tenaciously to the underlying gel coat. The only thing I can think of is to sand it off with very coarse sand paper (80 grit? 50 grit?) and a band sander or a grinder. There are three concerns I have.

1) Of course, I worry about the damage this will do to the underlying gel coat (which was in good shape before I foolishly applied Durabak).

2) I also worry that there is enough of the rubbery stuff left (which is the part the makes it non-skid) to clog the sand paper constantly which will make this very tedious work

3) And then there is the isssue of the borders. There are many linear feet in a deck, many with a fine radius. How do I precisely sand to this line, without damaging the gelcoat outside the non-skid area?

Oh, and of course the obvious place to ask for help would be the seller (durabakcompany.com). Unfortunatelly, they say they have no idea what to advise. I would have thought that there might be a chemical way to dissolve the remnants, hopefully even without damaging gel coat. But if there is, DurabakCompany is not saying.

In the process of finding out what chances of redress I might have, I found out that the company is not listed with the BBB. Yes, I know, I should have done all this research *before* I bought and applied this stuff but I had relied on the PS test. Big, big mistake.

Any advice?

Thank you!


----------



## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

Sorry for all of this, it sounds like a big disaster to be honest. But I don't know what to suggest other than...

1) a belt sander for the big stuff. If it clogs the paper then gets an eraser and just keep at it. Go with a heavy grit and just stay away from the edges. 

2) for the edges you need a more delicate tool. A dremmel with a sanding blade, do it by hand, it's going to suck. 

3) when you get most of it off and are back to a scuffed, dinged gelcoat... don't even bother to try and fix it. You put this stuff on because your old non-skid was toast anyway right? Just buy some Hydroturf (with the 3m adhesive glue), cut patterns to fit the deck, and stick the turf down. 

Alternatively you could try just knocking off the worst of what you have and putting the hydroturf on top of the residue. It might stick, it might release, I have no idea. But it would be a lot less work. 

I would recommend the 2mm stuff for the general deck, and 5mm in the cockpit. It's a very high density foam, that is pretty much impervious to water and chemicals so it will last pretty well, and is reasonably cheap ($100/32ft^2). It is also by far the best non-skid I have ever used, and because it is a foam, it's very comfortable to lay on and isn't uncomfortable on knees and elbows like sand/aggregate non-skid is.

Below you can see it applies to the cockpit of a VXOne.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Sorry to hear this. I shake my head at Practical Sailor studies now. I really don't think they are always very scientific. I hope not to offend one of their test engineers, who I know posts here, but I think they recognize some shortfalls in several tests. The Mantus chain hook test, for example, was highly criticized for mismatching the recommended chain size. The running rigging test compared different brand lines, but used inconsistent line diameters and hand feel was one of the comparatives.....duh. I don't trust PS much anymore and it's really too bad, because the industry would benefit from a more reliable testing company.

How about an oscillating tool, like a Fein multimaster, with a scraper or saw blade? You might have to go back and clean little bits up with a sander. I wouldn't be too worried about the gelcoat, unless you dig through. You'll probably have to fair it all out anyway and then apply a new non-skid, so you'll never see the mess. Lots of work though.

I'm guessing ultra violet light did it in. Did PS consider that in their study of outdoor non-skid? I let my subscription expire.


----------



## AJC506 (Nov 3, 2016)

Google didn't reveal much for boats....but jeep and truck guys know more about removal

Durabak Sprinke Removal on Paint. - JeepForum.com

durabak | ECJ5

I don't know what brake fluid, aircraft stripper or xylene would do to your boat surface though.


----------



## gptyk (Mar 20, 2013)

Yup. Google around the off-road forums. Herculiner is the exact same product, you may get more hits using Herculiner as the search term. IIRC, there's a few threads on Pirate4x4 that mention brake fluid as dissolving it, or wire wheel it off. (Pirate is the SA of the off-road world) 

You'll also likely find the very famous "Herculiner on the Hootus" thread. There are places you should never get bedliner.


----------



## Wes (Mar 27, 2016)

Hey,

Sorry, man, sounds like a bit of a mess and some work ahead...

I think it's a combination of a multi-tool with scraper blade to lift off most of it won't grind off with a circular sander (for large areas), then a random orbital sander, then go with repainting your deck. To me, the first challenge is figuring out whether it will scrape off or, as you've pointed out, will it clog a circular sander...you may need to go down to like 40 grit or maybe even 36 to get it to "cut"...Be careful on the curvy places!!! You'll have to take it all the way down I suspect (at least in the non-skid areas will need to be sanded flat). Probably treat it as if you have just re-cored your deck and are now ready to tape off/paint/non-skid.

Dunno if it's in the budget to hire folks who fair stuff everyday to at least do the "heavy lifting"


----------



## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

I second the use of a scraper to avoid clogging hundreds of sandpaper belts. Maybe some kind of paint stripper or heat prior to scraping?

Interesting how the real world conditions products face stymie the best intentioned tests.


----------



## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

Stumble said:


> Sorry for all of this, it sounds like a big disaster to be honest. But I don't know what to suggest other than...
> 
> 1) a belt sander for the big stuff. If it clogs the paper then gets an eraser and just keep at it. Go with a heavy grit and just stay away from the edges.
> 
> ...


Yes, doing several HUNDREDS of linear feet with a dremel sander is going to suck. Big time!

I had not heard about hydroturf before. The picture looks good and it sounds interesting but I am not too keen on trying another 'unconventional' product. Some googling brought out some people that swear by it but others say, e.g. "My HydroTurf is breaking down badly on my skiff after less than a year. Admittedly it's uncovered a lot but heck it's flaking apart. I'm pretty discouraged." (this is from Seadek or Hydro Turf - The Hull Truth - Boating and Fishing Forum).

So, I am thinking something more like KiwiGrip about which I have only heard good things.

Once I get this stupid Durabak contamination off my deck!!!


----------



## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> So, I am thinking something more like KiwiGrip about which I have only heard good things.


I have nothing but good things to say about KiwiGrip. It was extremely easy to put on and it did a great job of covering up the crap beneath it.

My deck had some crappy looking non-skid applied over top of the factory non-skid. I did NOT sand down to gelcoat, I just used a wire brush to remove as much as I could. My thinking was that any of the previous non-skid that was still adhering well enough to withstand the wire brush is probably affixed for good.

I am two seasons in and the KiwiGrip still looks great.

Caveats: Small, freshwater boat in the north. No salt, it's out of the water seven months of the year, and under a cover five months of the year.


----------



## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> So, I am thinking something more like KiwiGrip about which I have only heard good things.


I applied KiwiGrip one year ago and it looked great, did everything the manufacturer said ...... two weeks later it looked ten years old. It's a dirt magnet, stains easily and is extremely difficult to clean. Some on another forum recommend waxing it with Woody Wax (surf board wax) and say that keeps it looking clean but has to be waxed almost monthly depending on useage and location.

$200/gallon and I have to wax it !!!!

It's coming off next summer and I'll try something else.


----------



## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

boatpoker said:


> I applied KiwiGrip one year ago and it looked great, did everything the manufacturer said ...... two weeks later it looked ten years old. It's a dirt magnet, stains easily and is extremely difficult to clean. Some on another forum recommend waxing it with Woody Wax (surf board wax) and say that keeps it looking clean but has to be waxed almost monthly depending on useage and location.
> 
> $200/gallon and I have to wax it !!!!
> 
> It's coming off next summer and I'll try something else.


That is really bad news. I had planned to use Kiwigrip on my decks. Did you do the course roller or use a finer texture?

Jeff


----------



## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> Sorry to hear this. I shake my head at Practical Sailor studies now. I really don't think they are always very scientific. I hope not to offend one of their test engineers, who I know posts here, but I think they recognize some shortfalls in several tests. The Mantus chain hook test, for example, was highly criticized for mismatching the recommended chain size. The running rigging test compared different brand lines, but used inconsistent line diameters and hand feel was one of the comparatives.....duh. I don't trust PS much anymore and it's really too bad, because the industry would benefit from a more reliable testing company.
> 
> How about an oscillating tool, like a Fein multimaster, with a scraper or saw blade? You might have to go back and clean little bits up with a sander. I wouldn't be too worried about the gelcoat, unless you dig through. You'll probably have to fair it all out anyway and then apply a new non-skid, so you'll never see the mess. Lots of work though.
> 
> I'm guessing ultra violet light did it in. Did PS consider that in their study of outdoor non-skid? I let my subscription expire.


Yeah, I agree that PS might have had some egg on their face in some cases (btw it was me who brought the PS test of the Mantus hook to Sailnet) . But this is not one of them, I feel.

They tested the product, it came out very well initially (as it did on my deck), and they recommended it based on the data they had. It turns out that after 2 or 3 years that Durabak is actually cr*p (at least for this application). But should they wait for every product for N years until they publish their test? For some items, you can simulate ageing (like keeping electronics at high temperature, in a salt mist etc) but that is not really practical for non skid on a boat deck.

PS did not specifically mention UV light.You would guess (and they probably expected) that something made for the bed of a pickup truck should be able to stand up to sunlight for a while. We don't know if that is what did in the coating, it could be exposure to salt, perhaps different expansion characteristics on a boat deck than on a metal substrate, or who knows what. I have to say that now, as I am looking for ways to get rid of the stuff in the car/truck groups, I am reading about A LOT of bad experiences with Durabak. Even in their main target market there are at lot of people that hate the stuff, after having applied it and having seen it fail catastrophically. Maybe PS could be faulted for not having paid enough attention to what is known about this product whose features turns out to be really controversial, to put it mildly.

Anyway, I don't blame PS, they did what they could within the means they have. And they are man enough to fess up and downgrade the product drastically.

Where I see the fault is with the manufacturer. First selling a sh*tty product, and then completely ignoring customers when they ask for help, just to get this contamination off their property.


----------



## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Jeff_H said:


> That is really bad news. I had planned to use Kiwigrip on my decks. Did you do the course roller or use a finer texture?
> 
> Jeff


Their roller produced a texture that was tough on bare feet. I used a tight foam roller that produced a more moderate texture yet still has high non-skid properties. I'd imagine the rougher texture would trap even more dirt.


----------



## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

AJC506 said:


> Google didn't reveal much for boats....but jeep and truck guys know more about removal
> 
> Durabak Sprinke Removal on Paint. - JeepForum.com
> 
> ...


I used Xylene on my gelcoat when preparing for the Durabak application. It did no damage, at least not during the wiping that the application requires. Xylene is the solvent used to thin it but I believe, it does not dissolve cured Durabak.

Durabak is a polyurethane DURABAK Spec Sheet. I don't know what specifically removes this, without eating my boat. They claim (in the link above) that it is "Resistant to acid, chemicals, UV exposure, salt water". Would be nice if they were a bit more specific in what they mean by 'chemicals.'


----------



## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

boatpoker said:


> I applied KiwiGrip one year ago and it looked great, did everything the manufacturer said ...... two weeks later it looked ten years old. It's a dirt magnet, stains easily and is extremely difficult to clean. Some on another forum recommend waxing it with Woody Wax (surf board wax) and say that keeps it looking clean but has to be waxed almost monthly depending on useage and location.
> 
> $200/gallon and I have to wax it !!!!
> 
> It's coming off next summer and I'll try something else.


Oh boy. And I thought my sorrows were over after I got rid of the Durabak nightmare.

What are you suggesting to use instead of KiwiGrip?


----------



## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

Jeff_H said:


> That is really bad news. I had planned to use Kiwigrip on my decks. Did you do the course roller or use a finer texture?
> 
> Jeff





Jeff_H said:


> That is really bad news. I had planned to use Kiwigrip on my decks. Did you do the course roller or use a finer texture?
> 
> Jeff


I used their supplied roller and do not have the dirt problems boatpoker has.

I have not done my entire deck, there are still a couple areas of the original Catalina non-skid left. The KiwiGrip does not get dirty any faster than the factory non-skid. I have also not had any problem cleaning it. A brush works great, as does a pressure washer.

In the spring of 2015 I did my coach roof. In the spring of 2016 I did most of the rest of the deck. If was a dirt magnet or stained easily I would not have continued with it as I did.

Usual caveats, small boat in freshwater. This is my first boat, so I may have lower expectations than others.


----------



## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

Minnesail said:


> I used their supplied roller and do not have the dirt problems boatpoker has.
> 
> I have not done my entire deck, there are still a couple areas of the original Catalina non-skid left. The KiwiGrip does not get dirty any faster than the factory non-skid. I have also not had any problem cleaning it. A brush works great, as does a pressure washer.
> 
> ...


I wonder about KiwiGrip as I have heard about 50-50 on the reviews on it. Seems either you love it or hate it. I had planned on using it on my boat, but my plans may be changing.


----------



## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Dirty decks are not acceptable to us.The name of our boat is "DIRT FREE".
Ironic huh ?


----------



## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> Yes, doing several HUNDREDS of linear feet with a dremel sander is going to suck. Big time!
> 
> I had not heard about hydroturf before. The picture looks good and it sounds interesting but I am not too keen on trying another 'unconventional' product. Some googling brought out some people that swear by it but others say, e.g. "My HydroTurf is breaking down badly on my skiff after less than a year. Admittedly it's uncovered a lot but heck it's flaking apart. I'm pretty discouraged." (this is from Seadek or Hydro Turf - The Hull Truth - Boating and Fishing Forum).
> 
> ...


For what it's worth I have my hydroturf installed directly on top of non-skid tape, and in other places on top of molded non-skid that was worn. In both cases I used the 3m adhesive, and it is still holding up great after two years. If the substrate is good I am pretty sure it will stick to anything.

The issue with some hydroturf is that the neon colors are not UV stable (they have warning signs about this all over their website). So if you use that stuff it lasts a year or so, if you stick with the UV stable stuff it seems to last a very long time, 4-5 years at least.

I can send pics of the stuff at five years old (light grey UV stable), and at 2 years (same UV stable grey).


----------



## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

miatapaul said:


> I wonder about KiwiGrip as I have heard about 50-50 on the reviews on it. Seems either you love it or hate it. I had planned on using it on my boat, but my plans may be changing.


Is there a small area where you could test it? I found it to be marvelous stuff. I like the texture, and it's goes on thick enough to cover a multitude of sins

I wonder if the foam roller boatpoaker used introduced small air holes that trap dirt or something. Mine gets dirty, but no dirtier than the factory non-skid, and it cleans easily.

Here's a shot from the middle of last summer after the nieces and nephews were climbing all over it. It's not spotless, but it's cleaner than the adjacent gelcoat.


----------



## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

Minnewaska said:


> Sorry to hear this. I shake my head at Practical Sailor studies now. I really don't think they are always very scientific. I hope not to offend one of their test engineers, who I know posts here, but I think they recognize some shortfalls in several tests. The Mantus chain hook test, for example, was highly criticized for mismatching the recommended chain size. The running rigging test compared different brand lines, but used inconsistent line diameters and hand feel was one of the comparatives.....duh. I don't trust PS much anymore and it's really too bad, because the industry would benefit from a more reliable testing company.
> 
> How about an oscillating tool, like a Fein multimaster, with a scraper or saw blade? You might have to go back and clean little bits up with a sander. I wouldn't be too worried about the gelcoat, unless you dig through. You'll probably have to fair it all out anyway and then apply a new non-skid, so you'll never see the mess. Lots of work though.
> 
> I'm guessing ultra violet light did it in. Did PS consider that in their study of outdoor non-skid? I let my subscription expire.


I would try a polyurethane caulk remover like Marine Debond (it's good in 3M 5200). I don't know, but I would try a lot of chemicals before I got out the belt sander. I seriously doubt it is resistant to everything.

Not offended. In fact, I've got over 50 test panels of fabrics, glazing products, adhesives, and protectants aging on my roof. They've been there for years and they will be there another 5. Every year I review old "reviews" for update reports. Bet you don't see 5-year up-dates in other mags.

a. Always check to see if a test is long-term. If not, obviously they can't know. I've done both sorts, though I try VERY hard never to report on anything less than 2 years old. remember that as a "news" publication, we are often pushed to test relatively new products, and as result, you get it wrong once in a while. That is a perpetual early-adopter risk.

b. The Mantus hook is a matter of how you look at it. I still use it frequently. Because it is intended to be used on a snubber, the correct working load is that of the snubber, in my opinion. At least for the rope I use, it meets that requirement with room to spare; my working load with a 60knot wind and wave exposure is less than 1000 pounds and the ropes have a long tern working load limit of about 1200 pounds. The snubber lines will break long before the hook. Other PS writers believe it should be as strong as the chain in case the user does something stupid with it. So there is no change in the original review, just an internal difference of opinion. There have been no reports of a Mantus hook failing. I think that last sentence is important.

Finally, reviews always have room for personal opinion. For example. I don't like any of the "high grip" nonskids. My preference is for paint sprinkled with very coarse salt. I've done it this way a number of times. I like the finish, it wears well, and refinishing is a single coat of paint. This last reason is why I like it so well; it can never do any harm, such as you have experienced. But this rating gets into the area of opinion, because it does NOT have the high non-slip performance of other products. In the case of the Mantus hook, I like it because it is fast. Many things, it seems, involve trade offs.

----

BTW, my favorite hook (even faster, can't come off, full-strength, works with multiple snubbers and multiple anchor rigs) is a custom made one of my own invention. I like it better than all of the commercial products and their trade offs. But I've got a suspicion not too many others would like it or I would market it. Personal preferences.


----------



## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

pdqaltair said:


> There have been no reports of a Mantus hook failing. I think that last sentence is important.
> 
> ----
> 
> BTW, my favorite hook (even faster, can't come off, full-strength, works with multiple snubbers and multiple anchor rigs) is a custom made one of my own invention. I like it better than all of the commercial products and their trade offs. But I've got a suspicion not too many others would like it or I would market it. Personal preferences.


Wasn't the issue with the Mantus hook that it weakened the chain because of the unusual angle it held it in, along with the sharp edge at that angle - and not with the hook's strength itself?

If your hook design is what I think it is from previous posts, I think others could easily fab it themselves, or even someone could undercut any commercial price, so not sure what the market would be (BTW, I like that design).

We tossed our Mantus hook this year in favor of a soft shackle and so far are very happy with it. The Mantus hook was just too large, heavy and cumbersome and that stupid plastic gate keeps breaking. Despite Mantus's denial, the hook falls off regularly without that stupid plastic gate. Besides, the whole thing is just too cumbersome to use in practice.

Don't get me wrong, there is nothing "wrong" with the Mantus hook (with the exception of it possibly weakening the chain) - it is everything it is advertised to be. It is just too impractical to use, IMO.

Mark


----------



## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

colemj said:


> Wasn't the issue with the Mantus hook that it weakened the chain because of the unusual angle it held it in, along with the sharp edge at that angle - and not with the hook's strength itself?
> 
> If your hook design is what I think it is from previous posts, I think others could easily fab it themselves, or even someone could undercut any commercial price, so not sure what the market would be (BTW, I like that design).
> 
> ...


Yup, that's about right. All of it.

I use a soft shackle once in a while too. It works fine, and I recommended that application in a different article. Honestly, a big factor in deciding the "best" connection is the geometry of the roller and how you have to reach. So long as it does not come off, it only has to handle the snubber load, which should be no more than 1/3 of the chain WLL if everything is designed properly.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

pdqaltair said:


> .......Always check to see if a test is long-term.


I understand there are scientific methods to simulate long term UV exposure. I'm guessing they are expensive and PS doesn't have the budget for them. Is funding the issue that limits testing? Why not acquire all the same size lines for the running rigging test? Were they only what the manufacturers were willing to donate?



> .....The Mantus hook is a matter of how you look at it. I still use it frequently. Because it is intended to be used on a snubber


But the review had nothing to do with it being attached to a snubber. You're offering Mantus' argument for the flaw in PS' review. It was specifically about it's propensity, compared to other hooks, to cut the chain under load and it turned out that PS mismatched the hook and chain size. Do I recall correctly that the chain was old too? While I'm not a fan of Mantus, nor that hook, that test turned out to be terribly flawed. I stopped following, but I know Mantus had to redo some of their own testing and last I read, theirs wasn't very convincing either. I think PS was on to something, it just botched the test.



> BTW, my favorite hook (even faster, can't come off, full-strength, works with multiple snubbers and multiple anchor rigs) is a custom made one of my own invention.


I would love to see it! I think I've tried every commercial hook on my 1/2" chain, without liking any. I did like the wichard on smaller chain, but they don't make one big enough and it's not suited to serious wind/surf. I find myself sticking with the good old rolling hitch.


----------



## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

pdqaltair said:


> I use a soft shackle once in a while too. It works fine, and I recommended that application in a different article. Honestly, a big factor in deciding the "best" connection is the geometry of the roller and how you have to reach. So long as it does not come off, it only has to handle the snubber load, which should be no more than 1/3 of the chain WLL if everything is designed properly.


Since it is a shackle, if it is properly made and installed, it should not come off. As for load, ours are made from 1/4" Amsteel, so pretty sure it is the strongest part of our ground tackle.

Mark


----------



## dbruce85 (Aug 17, 2007)

I applied Kiwigrip about five years ago, it worked and looked great. Mind you by the end of the job I had gotten better at getting the right texture on the deck. After five years it is starting to showing wear and I will reapply this spring. Mine did not stain and looked good thru the five years. It is not awful now, just showing wear in high traffic areas. I would be concerned applying it over a anything that is still peeling.


----------



## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

Stumble said:


> For what it's worth I have my hydroturf installed directly on top of non-skid tape, and in other places on top of molded non-skid that was worn. In both cases I used the 3m adhesive, and it is still holding up great after two years. If the substrate is good I am pretty sure it will stick to anything.
> 
> The issue with some hydroturf is that the neon colors are not UV stable (they have warning signs about this all over their website). So if you use that stuff it lasts a year or so, if you stick with the UV stable stuff it seems to last a very long time, 4-5 years at least.
> 
> I can send pics of the stuff at five years old (light grey UV stable), and at 2 years (same UV stable grey).


Thanks for the first-hand report.

How easy is it to apply (cleanly)? I suppose a bit more difficult than to tape it off and then roll on KiwiGrip (for instance)?


----------



## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

pdqaltair said:


> I would try a polyurethane caulk remover like Marine Debond (it's good in 3M 5200). I don't know, but I would try a lot of chemicals before I got out the belt sander. I seriously doubt it is resistant to everything.


Yes, I thought about Debond. It is for polyurethane, after all, and apparently safe for fiberglass. If it works, there may be a problem with cost: not exactly cheap at $30.- for 12oz (cheapest I have seen, at WM it is close to 40 with tax). And I did not find anywhere to buy it in larger quantities than those 12oz cans. How many cans would I need, 10? The cost would already be quite a bit more of what I ever paid for Durabak. But yes, it would beat hours of sanding if it works.

I curse that Durabak stuff!


----------



## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> I understand there are scientific methods to simulate long term UV exposure. I'm guessing they are expensive and PS doesn't have the budget for them. Is funding the issue that limits testing? Why not acquire all the same size lines for the running rigging test? Were they only what the manufacturers were willing to donate?
> 
> I would love to see it! I think I've tried every commercial hook on my 1/2" chain, without liking any. I did like the wichard on smaller chain, but they don't make one big enough and it's not suited to serious wind/surf. I find myself sticking with the good old rolling hitch.


We don't know if it is UV that converts Durabak to quick oats in two years, or some other factor. The manufacturer is not telling, for sure.

I also would like to see PDQ's boat hook design.


----------



## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

dbruce85 said:


> I applied Kiwigrip about five years ago, it worked and looked great. Mind you by the end of the job I had gotten better at getting the right texture on the deck. After five years it is starting to showing wear and I will reapply this spring. Mine did not stain and looked good thru the five years. It is not awful now, just showing wear in high traffic areas. I would be concerned applying it over a anything that is still peeling.


If I could get 5 years out of a non-skid coating, and then having the opportunity to overcoat it without having to get the whole shebang off again, I would be overjoyed.


----------



## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

Minnesail said:


> Is there a small area where you could test it? I found it to be marvelous stuff. I like the texture, and it's goes on thick enough to cover a multitude of sins
> 
> I wonder if the foam roller boatpoaker used introduced small air holes that trap dirt or something. Mine gets dirty, but no dirtier than the factory non-skid, and it cleans easily.
> 
> Here's a shot from the middle of last summer after the nieces and nephews were climbing all over it. It's not spotless, but it's cleaner than the adjacent gelcoat.


Yea, that was the plan, but my project may be taking a different tack. I may get a different boat, this one is not really working for my use as a live-aboard. I am looking at more cruising designs that have more storage, and gasp a shower.....


----------



## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> Thanks for the first-hand report.
> 
> How easy is it to apply (cleanly)? I suppose a bit more difficult than to tape it off and then roll on KiwiGrip (for instance)?


It's a giant sticker so not very hard. In my case I spent two weeks making templates because I a man obsessive and not very good at making templates. Then my wife made them in about two hours.

We took the templates then cut them out of a sheet of the foam. The actual application of the foam is pretty easy. I have been able to find an edge to index against, so you pull the backing off and press it down.

Including doing all the hardware cutouts, getting it lined up and sticking it down it took about 45 minutes to do my A-Cat.

The other places I have applied it have been under the wheel on the Beneteau to stand on while driving, and the same on our fishing boat. But we are considering applying it to the entire flybride of our power boat. The only issue there is size, it's about 300sq foot and we would have to template out all the current non-skid, which is in pretty good condition now.


----------



## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> We don't know if it is UV that converts Durabak to quick oats in two years, or some other factor. The manufacturer is not telling, for sure.


Oh, and I should add that Durabak comes in two versions, one (supposedly) UV stabilized and the other one not. Of course I used the former one.


----------



## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

Stumble said:


> It's a giant sticker so not very hard. In my case I spent two weeks making templates because I a man obsessive and not very good at making templates. Then my wife made them in about two hours.
> 
> We took the templates then cut them out of a sheet of the foam. The actual application of the foam is pretty easy. I have been able to find an edge to index against, so you pull the backing off and press it down.
> 
> ...


I get the obsessive part. It would probably take me a month...

Definitely something I will keep in mind. Thanks a lot for your insights!


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

miatapaul said:


> .....this one is not really working for my use as a live-aboard.........


Miata, are you living aboard now on the Hudson or just fitting out to live aboard in the future? What I'm really curious about is whether there is a Mid-Hudson marina that has winter liveaboards. All that I knew, back in the day, pulled their docks for the winter.

I have family in the area and have considered whether we might store there, in-water, over a winter, to have a place to visit. However, the idea of a winterized boat that we could technically sleep aboard, if we had shore power, hasn't jumped to the top of the list yet. That said, I bet we would have actually had a few winter weekends of sailing this year., its been so mild........ so far that is.


----------



## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

Haverstraw marina has in the water winter storage, is a fully protected marina, and they keep ice eaters going. Not a bad place. It's down in Rockland so further south than I wanted but doable. I think it is about 10 foot minimum so draft is no issue.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


----------



## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

Yea, I was wishing the boat was in "sailing shape" (my mast is down and in storage) as we had whales in the river reported from fall well into the winter. Would have been fun to see them.


----------



## dbruce85 (Aug 17, 2007)

Take a look a the Kiwigrip installation videos, I found them helpful and to the point, when I reapply I will just wash the surface and tape


----------



## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

dbruce85 said:


> Take a look a the Kiwigrip installation videos, I found them helpful and to the point, when I reapply I will just wash the surface and tape


Thank you, great idea! I watched several, the 'official' one and also some from a bunch of guys that add miscellaneous tips. For instance, applying the masking tape in small (1'-2') sections and remove it while you are painting (i.e. immediately after doing a small section) is a great idea that I had never thought of. I will definitely try this. Should be useful even beyond Kiwigrip application, for any fast-drying paint.

Still not sure what do to about the cursed Durabak. They do not reply to emails.  I was at the boat yesterday and found that the flakes into which it decomposes seem to become bigger. I now have several areas where flakes of several square inch size are coming off.

Perhaps this is a good thing. If I wait long enough, I will be able to tear off the whole deck in one piece


----------



## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Three years on my Kiwi Grip, no problems whatsoever. I just scrub it with a scrub brush and Comet cleanser and it looks like new for weeks on end. I love it!

Gary


----------



## RocketScience (Sep 8, 2008)

IME (in my experience) your options for fast and efficient removal of the Durabak is either 3M's Clean and Strip Disc, or their Bristle Disc. I've experienced minimal clogging with the Clean and Strip, but zero with the Bristle Disc. Both however will not be kind to your underlying gelcoat, but if you're reapplying nonskid, it doesn't matter.

Now, my 2¢ on what to reapply...
I've helped apply (on other people's boats) Kiwi grip, and found the same dirt and staining issues mentioned here. IMO, I would reapply a 2-part urethane product such as Interlux's Perfection, and a hand broadcasting of Interlux's Intergrip granules (*you're in control* of the amount of non-skid you prefer), followed by a second coat of Perfection. This is a time tested technique, using time tested products. Again, just my 2¢.


----------



## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

RocketScience said:


> IME (in my experience) your options for fast and efficient removal of the Durabak is either 3M's Clean and Strip Disc, or their Bristle Disc. I've experienced minimal clogging with the Clean and Strip, but zero with the Bristle Disc. Both however will not be kind to your underlying gelcoat, but if you're reapplying nonskid, it doesn't matter.
> 
> Now, my 2¢ on what to reapply...
> I've helped apply (on other people's boats) Kiwi grip, and found the same dirt and staining issues mentioned here. IMO, I would reapply a 2-part urethane product such as Interlux's Perfection, and a hand broadcasting of Interlux's Intergrip granules (*you're in control* of the amount of non-skid you prefer), followed by a second coat of Perfection. This is a time tested technique, using time tested products. Again, just my 2¢.


Thank you for both tips. I did not know about the bristle disk, it looks promising. As a matter of fact, I discovered there are LOTS of different bristle disks so I will have to learn a bit more about that. I am looking at a pressure washer, too, see my next post.

As for re-coating, I am not sure what to do. It seems like about half love Kiwi Grip and the other are not convinced (though nobody seems to actually HATE it, which is definitely the feeling I have for Durabak). I like the simplicity of applying a single product (KiwiGrip) vs the complexity of several steps which is, as you say, the traditional (time-tested) way. But I agree it likely gives more controle. I have never worked with two-part paints, either, and understand they can be a bit finicky. My cockpit is painted with a one-part polyurethane (Interlux Brightside) which I like for its ease of application and reliably good outcome. However, it needs to be repainted every 3 or so years at least if one is concerned about cosmetics. Not a big deal for the cockpit but I was hoping that I wouldn't have to do the deck every few years.

Thanks again, and I will do some more research on both removal and recoating. We have another 6 weeks of winter to look forward to, as Phil told us this week


----------



## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

travlin-easy said:


> Three years on my Kiwi Grip, no problems whatsoever. I just scrub it with a scrub brush and Comet cleanser and it looks like new for weeks on end. I love it!
> 
> Gary


Hm, maybe that is the secret why it works for you: Comet cleanser. This is a mild abrasive and I also don't know what else is in there. I have never used something like that on the deck, or elsewhere on the boat (maybe on a dirty pot in the sink ). The only products I have ever applied to the deck are Simple Green (rarely) and Woody Wax.

Even if the Kiwigrip is fine with it, I am not sure I would want it on the gelcoat (non-non skid) parts of the deck, or on the topsides.


----------



## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> Still not sure what do to about the cursed Durabak. They do not reply to emails.  I was at the boat yesterday and found that the flakes into which it decomposes seem to become bigger. I now have several areas where flakes of several square inch size are coming off.
> 
> Perhaps this is a good thing. If I wait long enough, I will be able to tear off the whole deck in one piece


Looks like my prediction is coming true. See the attached _Durabak Horror Picture Show_ showing the Spawn Of The Devil* coming off in increasingly large flakes. The first shows two prime specimen that I found on the cockpit floor yesterday. If you look closely, there are actually the two cockpit drains are right under the flakes which are being blocked by the stuff. The other pictures show various stages of decomposition of Durabak in different places on the deck.

But perhaps there is light at the end of the tunnel. Given how horrible this stuff really is, perhaps I can wash it off with a power washer? I have a reasonably good one, one of the smaller gas models. If needed, I could rent a more powerful one. That should take off a good part of it. Sure would beat sanding it off. Or, at least, whatever I can powerwash off is not going to clog the sand paper if I have to sand afterwards.

Thoughts?

*Hm, I don't tweet but #DurabakIsTheSpawnOfTheDevil makes a nice hashtag. Maybe I should get a Twitter account?


----------



## RocketScience (Sep 8, 2008)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> Hm, maybe that is the secret why it works for you: Comet cleanser. This is a mild abrasive *and I also don't know what else is in there*. I have never used something like that on the deck, or elsewhere on the boat (maybe on a dirty pot in the sink . The only products I have ever applied to the deck are Simple Green (rarely) and Woody Wax.
> 
> Even if the Kiwigrip is fine with it, I am not sure I would want it on the gelcoat (non-non skid) parts of the deck, or on the topsides.


Well, that would be (to name just a few) _Calcium hydroxide, Trichloroisocyanuric acid, and Trichloroisocyanuric acid,_ none of which will be very kind to that annual topside wax job that took you a whole weekend to apply. Nah, nothing hits my topsides for cleaning except water and Mer-maid's (won't eat your wax job).


----------



## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

RocketScience said:


> Well, that would be (to name just a few) *Calcium hydroxide, Trichloroisocyanuric acid, and Trichloroisocyanuric acid,* none of which will be very kind to that annual topside wax job that took you a whole weekend to apply. Nah, nothing hits my topsides for cleaning except water and Mer-maid's (won't eat your wax job).


Thank you for looking that up. :eek

"Don't put anything on your deck your great-great-great grandfather sailor wouldn't recognize" uke


----------



## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

RocketScience said:


> Well, that would be (to name just a few) _Calcium hydroxide, Trichloroisocyanuric acid, and Trichloroisocyanuric acid,_ none of which will be very kind to that annual topside wax job that took you a whole weekend to apply. Nah, nothing hits my topsides for cleaning except water and *Mer-maid's (won't eat your wax job)*.


This one? Boat Wash with 2% Carnauba Wax - 32oz -Mermaid And it works? And it doesn't make non-skid slippery?


----------



## RocketScience (Sep 8, 2008)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> This one? Boat Wash with 2% Carnauba Wax - 32oz -Mermaid And it works? And it doesn't make non-skid slippery?


That's it.

Cleans great. I have the Interlux Perfection/Intergrip combo nonskid on my boat mentioned previously, and doesn't make it slippery. It only contains 2% carnauba, which isn't much, and probably thrown in for marketing.


----------



## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"Well, that would be (to name just a few) "
That's why many folks have used BonAmi for years. Confusingly sold in both the old (yellow) box and the newer gold cannister, same product. It has always been a mild abrasive (feldspar or diatomaceous earth, aka Fuller's earth) just like traditional Crest toothpaste. Won't scratch, no harsh chemicals. As Comet and Ajax got more complaints about damaging fiberglass tubs surrounds in the 90's. they both switched to a similar software formula, but BonAmi still reigns king for "Won't harm". 
SoftScrub was pretty good too, but that went off the market for a while and is still hard to find.


----------



## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> But perhaps there is light at the end of the tunnel. Given how horrible this stuff really is, perhaps I can wash it off with a power washer? I have a reasonably good one, one of the smaller gas models. If needed, I could rent a more powerful one. That should take off a good part of it. Sure would beat sanding it off. Or, at least, whatever I can powerwash off is not going to clog the sand paper if I have to sand afterwards.
> 
> Thoughts?


Didn't get much Thoughts from anyone so I suppose using a power washer can't be horrible.

My plan is to go for it this weekend. The Durabak has been nicely decomposing further over the last months and now there are large areas (of square foot size) where the top layer is entirely gone. If I waited another couple months it might be gone entirely. Of course the season would be gone entirely, too, so that is not an option. But I am quite optimistic that power washing will get rid of most of the top layer.

Of course, there are still remnants sticking to the deck. For that, I don't think there is an alternative to sanding.

The nightmare continues...


----------



## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Best of luck..


----------



## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

I realize this thread is very old, but thought I would chime in about the Ki-Wi Grip. I am now at more than 4 years with it and it still looks like new. As for stains, about the only thing that has stained it is spider poop, which we see a lot of every year, and I can easily remove it with LA Totally Awesome Cleaner that I purchsed at Dollar General for $1 for a 20 ounce spray bottle. This stuff will clean anything on the boat, including nasty, black marks from folks boarding with black, rubber-soled shoes. However, it will remove any and all traces of wax, so you have to be careful where you use it. It will also remove Poli-Glo as well. I have never had a problem scrubbing my Ki-Wi Grip finish using Comet Cleanser, and I just rinse it thoroughly after scrubbing, which is what I would do if I used Dawn dish detergent, which I sometimes do because it does not attack the Poli Glo.

Hopefully, the OP has successfully removed the garbage finish he appled back in 2010 and refinished the deck with Ki-Wi Grip. As for it being a dirt magnet, this has not been my experience, and my boat is docked just a few hundred yards from a freight train track where huge trainloads of coal pass by nearly every day. The coal dust cleans off quite readily with Dawn Dish Detergent or Comet Cleanser and a scrub brush. Not a big deal to clean, even for a 76-year old sailor with some bad and missing body parts. 

All the best,

Gary


----------



## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

travlin-easy said:


> I realize this thread is very old...
> 
> Gary


Gary, I guess I am getting old and am not used to these fast-moving times any more... This thread was started (by me) on Jan. 16, so just over 2 months ago. Perhaps this counts as 'very old' for the whippersnapper population but for me it is still quite fresh :laugh


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I don't know if the power washer is a good idea or not. I do know a guy who used one to clean his decks and it popped several pea sized pieces of gelcoat off. That may not be a big deal, if you're resealing the gelcoat anyway. Just be careful.


----------



## egood (Apr 12, 2003)

Unfortunately I went through the Durabek non-skid issue and spent weeks removing it. I used the white durabek and within 2 weeks the black rubber was showing through; within in a month or two the paint began to flake. The only way I removed it was to literally burn it off with a heat gun and scraper followed by aggressive sanding. Needless to say it did a number on the gelcoat. Eventually went to Kiwigrip and have had no issues since applying it (~ 5 yrs ago). The boat is kept in Fl and subjected to all the issues you'd expect; O inly wish I'd been aware of the Durabek issues earlier!!!!!!


----------



## rbrasi (Mar 21, 2011)

I second Travelin'- LA Totally Awesome cleaner gets most of the hard to clean stains off the Kiwigrip. I'm only in year two of mine, so I can't speak to the longevity of the look. Like you, my deck is also painted with Brighteside.


----------



## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

MastUndSchotbruch, my mistake. I thought this thread was much older, but that was becasue I looked at your join date instead of the post date. Sorry about that.

Hope you are blasting that flaky junk off your deck at this point and getting ready to put down a fresh coat of Kiwi Grip.

All the best,

Gary


----------



## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> I don't know if the power washer is a good idea or not. I do know a guy who used one to clean his decks and it popped several pea sized pieces of gelcoat off. That may not be a big deal, if you're resealing the gelcoat anyway. Just be careful.


Sorry for not replying earlier, and thanks for the warning. I don't want to repeat myself, I will post a report on my experience in a few minutes...


----------



## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

egood said:


> Unfortunately I went through the Durabek non-skid issue and spent weeks removing it. I used the white durabek and within 2 weeks the black rubber was showing through; within in a month or two the paint began to flake. The only way I removed it was to literally burn it off with a heat gun and scraper followed by aggressive sanding. Needless to say it did a number on the gelcoat. Eventually went to Kiwigrip and have had no issues since applying it (~ 5 yrs ago). The boat is kept in Fl and subjected to all the issues you'd expect; O inly wish I'd been aware of the Durabek issues earlier!!!!!!


I am very sorry to hear about your disastrous experience with Durabak. As Practical Sailor report, you and I are not the only ones, this is simply a sh*tty product. At least for the marine market, perhaps it is the best thing since sliced bread for pickup trucks but I don't care. They sell it for boat decks and not only is it completely unsuitable, what is worse is that the company couldn't care less about their customers' problems once they have their money.

I realize that you had to go through the 'burn' process and damaged your gelcoat while doing so. I can report that I had more luck with a power washer, see my post below.


----------



## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

I'll be powerwashing the entire boat tomorrow morning, including the non-skid. Never had a problem doing this with Kiwi Grip.

Gary


----------



## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

travlin-easy said:


> MastUndSchotbruch, my mistake. I thought this thread was much older, but that was becasue I looked at your join date instead of the post date. Sorry about that.
> 
> Hope you are blasting that flaky junk off your deck at this point and getting ready to put down a fresh coat of Kiwi Grip.
> 
> ...


No problem. I was just pulling your leg :smile

Anyway, here is (DRUM ROLL!) how to get rid of the devil's spawn called Durabak. I can report with great pleasure that after two years in the fierce Maryland sun (ha!) the stuff had so decomposed that I could, indeed, blast it off with my power washer! I applied the usual precautions, did not get too close to the gelcoat and no damage whatsoever ensued. But the Durabak wafted away in huge flakes. Some were close to a half sq ft in size, I spent some time to collect it from the ground because I felt bad polluting the marina ground. The whole deck was cleared in less than 3 hours.

I expected some nightmare like egood reported and I am very relieved that I got rid of the stuff without doing additional damage, and with a very reasonable amount of work. I should notice that Durabak left a white residue on the deck which looked nearly rock-like. That took me another 4 or 5 hours to sand off with a random orbit sander and a 40 grit disk. I could have made it much smoother but this is non-skid anyways so I left it at the point where the cosmetics were kind-of OK.

Another observation: I carry my spinnaker boom on the deck and the Durabak coating was essentially preserved under it! So the problem is UV. Durabak comes in two versions, with and without UV protection, and of course I bought the version with it (for both of my ill-fated trials with the stuff). Maybe they sold me the wrong one. On the cans it clearly said WITH UV protection but my faith in the integrity of the Durabak Company and the manufacturer, Cote-L, is very low. Or their stuff simply does not work.

So, if your deck is entirely protected from the sun, Durabak may be just the ticket :devil


----------



## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> No problem. I was just pulling your leg :smile
> 
> Anyway, here is (DRUM ROLL!) how to get rid of the devil's spawn called Durabak. I can report with great pleasure that after two years in the fierce Maryland sun (ha!) the stuff had so decomposed that I could, indeed, blast it off with my power washer! I applied the usual precautions, did not get too close to the gelcoat and no damage whatsoever ensued. But the Durabak wafted away in huge flakes. Some were close to a half sq ft in size, I spent some time to collect it from the ground because I felt bad polluting the marina ground. The whole deck was cleared in less than 3 hours.
> 
> ...


As a further update for those interested, I decided finally what to replace Durabak with. I did not want to glue on something to my deck so my choices were KiwiGrip and aggregate in paint. Although most (but not all) experiences with KiwiGrip were positive, I decided against it, partly because of my experience with another special-purpose covering, the horrible Durabak, which also was recommended highly but turned out to be a nightmare. So I was left with the 'classical' aggregate-in-paint solution. So, the question was which aggregate and which paint.

I did not want sand since you cannot sand if off  if you ever want to. Considered walnut shells but in the end I decided on a product which is specifically designed for this purpose, Awlgrip. It has a specific weight similar to paint so it stays suspended in it which makes it possible to spray or roll it. Which paint? Recommended is a two-part paint which is harder than one-part but I have been painting my cockpit for years with Brightside, a one-part polyutherane that is very easy to use. And by accicdent the Off white Hatteras (1990) fits the color of my gelcoat perfectly.

So, this was the decision: Awlgrip in Brightside. I used the extra coarse (Jamestown has it, Defender would have needed to special-order it, they only have the finer grits). The standard way is to sprinkle sand on the moist paint and that is actually what Awlgrip recommends in their instructions if it is not sprayed. I started that way on the foredeck and found that the result was not very consistent. I then concluded that, if it can be sprayed, it should remain in suspension well enough to be rolled on, so I mixed it in the paint and rolled it on.

This worked like a charm! Not only was it more consistent, it also was more economical since I did not have to brush off the non-sticking Awlgrip particles from the deck. Fine if you use beach sand, not so nice if you do this at the tune of $34.- for 7 ounces (weight of the product in a quart)! And the Awlgrip particles blow off at the lightest breeze, even if it is barely noticeable.

So, this is what I ended up doing with the rest of the deck. I applied two layers everywhere and the foredeck is still less uniform than the rest. However, the rest looks great, the foredeck is acceptable (for my standards), and the antiskid properties are at least as good as with Durabak (which I liked from this point of view). My first priority is safety; if it is uncomfortable to kneel on, so be it.

So, there we are. I hope that this is the end of the nightmare. BTW during my spring cleaning I found Durabak flakes down in the deepest recesses of the cockpit lockers. Probably, my slip neighbors wonder where those funny flakes on their boats come from...


----------

