# What a beach apparently looks like after a Sunsail flotilla has visited



## Telesail (Dec 28, 2011)

A friend is sailing in Greece and posted the following to her Facebook page. I wonder if this is a rogue occurrence or have others experienced similar?

"We have been anchored at this lovely beach for several days. Tad and I spent about 5 hours in total cleaning up plastic bottles, caps, and other rubbish that had accumulated on the beach, just because we hate to see rubbish. Yesterday a Sunsail flotilla came in, and not only anchored practically on top of us, but decided to have a little BBQ ashore last night. This is how they left the beach! Admittedly, Tad went over and had a word with the flotilla skipper (boat pictured here) and they did some tidying up. The rest of the flotilla simply sat by and had their breakfasts on board watching! Is that what you pay for when sailing in a flotilla? Sunsail, you should be ashamed of yourselves!"


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Did SunSail themselves organize and sponsor the flotilla or were they just SunSail boats?


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## Telesail (Dec 28, 2011)

Good question. I will ask and then post the answer.

Apparently the skipper and mechanic on the lead boat were from Sunsail but it may have been a group of charterers who decided to sail together. Stand by........


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## vagabundoII (Jan 6, 2014)

That is pretty bad. It's going to be a hard one to regulate but something has to be done.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

WOW! I would think that a tip/note from your friend to the local government in Greece might put SunSail on notice that this is not only unacceptable, but will not be tolerated...


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

How the hell can you blame Sunsail for the dirty hanits of some charterers???


Mark


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## aloof (Dec 21, 2014)

Aaack! Don't go to the government. Their easy solution will be to simply outlaw cruising...or in Greece today a $200 per day user fee.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Just curious do you know where the charterers are from?


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## Telesail (Dec 28, 2011)

I have sent the link to the person who was there and hopefully she can answer the more specific questions. 

The reason I posted it was because I was curious as to whether others had experienced the same thing. I have seen similar from other charter boats and I suspect there is a difference in mindset about how a charterer treats the environment vs an owner (just as there is with how people treat hire cars more harshly than their own)

If it was simply a group chartering from Sunsail and there were no Sunsail staff in any supervisory capacity then it would be hard to blame the company. If they were captained charters with Sunsail captain and mechanic for the flotilla then I would say that, regardless of whether you can "blame" the company, there is a reputational risk. 

When the details were posted to Sunsail, rather than responding and saying they were horrified, they simply deleted the post. This is not the best way to handle these things historically imho. 

As I say, I am not blaming anyone except the litterbugs themselves. Although, if the company does not at least respond to say they are looking into it and do not condone littering, I would probably think less of them. But then I am probably not going to be a client so why should they care what I think........


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I don't think the phenomenon of drunk vacationers has anything specifically to do with SunSail. People can be jerks. How old was this crowd? 

If it was a group, unrelated to SS, that hired a captain as a guide, he/she would not have been in a position of authority. More like a paid servant. Pays the same too. 

In your picture, I see fenders, a fender board and cooler. Did they really leave them on the beach and not have them aboard for turning the boat in? That usually comes out of one's deposit.

Also, there is a plastic chair seat that I'm having a hard time thinking came from one of the boats. Could some of this trash have been gathered from the beach, rather than brought there?

I'm with you, we should all have a great time and "leave nothing but footprints behind". I'm just not sure we know the whole story here.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> How the hell can you blame Sunsail for the dirty hanits of some charterers???
> 
> Mark


I don't believe that anyone is BLAMING Sunsail, but that does not mean that they shouldn't be held responsible for the behavior of their charter guests. The local authorities could find out who the captains were, and; go after them with fines, etc., let Sunsail know that they will be paying special attention to their boats, warn Sunsail not to charter to these pigs again, or any combination therof.


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## Telesail (Dec 28, 2011)

So I checked......

A group of British charterers with a Sunsail captain and mechanic leading the group. The reaction of this captain to being asked not to leave rubbish all over the beach was initially hostile but then he sent the mechanic to bring back some of the rubbish and to bury the rest. My friend says that the beach was clear before the other group arrived because she had just spent several hours cleaning up the area that was subsequently littered. It is possible they sent a foraging party far and wide to find unexpected junk that could not possibly have been on a boat. The cooler looks like a throwaway item rather than part of the boat inventory so I would definitely believe that came from the boat. I agree that it seems bizarre to leave fenders and a fender board on the beach.

I don't think that the general issue has anything to do with Sunsail specifically. But in this instance, the flotilla consisted of their boats chartered and their skipper in charge. It must be hard to balance that role with being Chief Fun Officer as well and knowing that your review and potential tip may be at risk if you tell people that they need to clean up after themselves.

I am sure that if we were talking about a safety incident here, rather than littering, then nobody would say that the captain (employed by the charter company, presumably to protect their asset and their clients) should not be responsible, whether he was being treated like a paid servant or otherwise. In fact this would be the case whether he was a Sunsail captain or not. But nobody treats littering as seriously as safety - for understandable reasons. 

However, I suspect that it would matter to every charter company that government officials responsible for renewing their business licenses think that their clients treat the environment with respect. 

The good news is that they have now decided that they are interested in the issue.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

It's a shame those charter boats didn't have trash compactors aboard....


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## Telesail (Dec 28, 2011)

From the Director of Marketing on Sunsail UK Facebook page:

"We were very sorry to see the photos from Robin. I have asked her for some more information so we can find out what happened and ensure it does not happen again. Many thanks"

Looks like Sunsail stepping up.......


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Good on your for getting SS attention. In the end, it seems this is really on the backs of the pukes that chartered the boats. Shouldn't be tolerated.

However, without further evidence of the hired Captain's involvement, I'm totally neutral on him/her. In fact, safety and litter ashore are explicitly different when it comes to their responsibility. Unlike what we think of as Captain, they are not in authority over the conduct of the crew ashore, only the vessel. From a public relations standpoint, SS would certainly appear badly and they've clearly figured that out. I'm only arguing the technical here. What if the Captain simply didn't approve of drinking alcohol and making a ruckus on the beach. Does he/she have the authority to ban it? Most charterers I know would tell them to piss off.


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## Telesail (Dec 28, 2011)

You are, of course, right. Even if it were a safety question ashore, it would not be the responsibility of the Captain in his capacity as Captain.

I don't think it is a legal issue so much as a leadership question. Not all authority stems from rank.......


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Telesail said:


> You are, of course, right. Even if it were a safety question ashore, it would not be the responsibility of the Captain in his capacity as Captain.
> 
> I don't think it is a legal issue so much as a leadership question. Not all authority stems from rank.......


I agree.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"I don't believe that anyone is BLAMING Sunsail, but that does not mean that they shouldn't be held responsible for the behavior of their charter guests. "

So when I see some tourists in a Hertz rental throwing trash out the window, I should blame Hertz for not...what? Doing a better job of screening the customers? Or failing to send along a scullery maid to clean up behind them?

Maybe Sunsail should require ASA 805 from all charterers. You know, the "Ecological Correctness" course?


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## Telesail (Dec 28, 2011)

hellosailor said:


> "I don't believe that anyone is BLAMING Sunsail, but that does not mean that they shouldn't be held responsible for the behavior of their charter guests. "
> 
> So when I see some tourists in a Hertz rental throwing trash out the window, I should blame Hertz for not...what? Doing a better job of screening the customers? Or failing to send along a scullery maid to clean up behind them?
> 
> Maybe Sunsail should require ASA 805 from all charterers. You know, the "Ecological Correctness" course?


If you were giving someone a ride in your car and they wound down the window and started throwing trash out, would you ask them to stop and think twice about whether you would give them a ride again?

Take it a step further, if you were a paid chauffeur and your client committed an offence, would you just turn a blind eye and say nothing?

Sunsail is not to blame for the loutish behaviour. How their captain chose to react is, however, their responsibility. I would hope that I had the sense to recognise that my reputation would be affected by the actions of my clients if I did nothing to rectify the situation afterwards.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"If you were giving someone a ride in your car"
Ah, but that's not at all the same. If I'm giving them a ride, I'm there to supervise or chastise them.
If Sunsail charters out boats, plural? Sunsail "corporate" isn't there. Sunsail's local base management isn't there. And for all we know, the guy who was there, isn't a full time Sunsail employee, much less interested in doing anything to reduce their TIP from the charterers.

Can't fairly blame Sunsail (corporate) for actions they probably have never been informed of, nor had control over. What you can do is inform them that there's a problem, and see what they have to say. For all you know, they may send a clean-up crew out twice a month to keep destination beaches clean. But we wouldn't know, without asking them. Or suggesting it.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Telesail said:


> ....if you were a paid chauffeur and your client committed an offence, would you just turn a blind eye and say nothing?.....


That's exactly the analogy here. The Captain is a paid chauffeur, nothing more, unless it was a SS sponsored event.

Yes, I think almost all chauffeurs would think littering was beyond their ability to influence their boss.


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## Telesail (Dec 28, 2011)

I guess that is why I could never have been a chauffeur.

However, perhaps you are right - that is all that a flotilla captain is. Pretty sad state of affairs that the role of a ship's captain has been demoted to that level.

Anyhow, Sunsail clearly feels that this sort of thing should not happen so perhaps there is hope after all......


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

Seems to me, the charterers should be billed for the cleanup just as if they had left the mess on the boat. While I don't think Sun Sail is responsible for the actions of it's charterers is the right thing to do, to make sure they clean the beach, after all they profited from the charter. It is also in there best interest to clean it up as it keeps there charter grounds clean and helps improve there image. Seems they have seen the wisdom in doing the right thing.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Telesail said:


> .... Pretty sad state of affairs that the role of a ship's captain has been demoted to that level.....


I've known my fair share of quality charter company skippers. One was even crew in an Americas Cup boat a couple decades earlier. Although, he mostly taught the others. On the other hand, I've known more 20-something sail bums, with fancy sunglasses and as much a party attitude, ie chauffeurs, without the nice clothes.


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## scratchee (Mar 2, 2012)

Telesail said:


> ...I don't think it is a legal issue so much as a leadership question. Not all authority stems from rank.......


Littering is one of the most infuriatingly brainless habits I encounter. I have found over the years that simply setting the example by beginning to clean up (even if it's not my mess), and pointing out receptacles as people begin to make a mess, goes a long way toward getting people to put a little effort into picking up after themselves. I feel strongly enough about it that I'm not above cleaning up someone else's mess as they watch. Sometimes that results in them being shamed into helping, and other times it results in, well, me cleaning up someone else's mess.


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## clutters (Jun 24, 2015)

We have just come back from Bare boating with Sunsail and I recognize this boat as the lead boat of the Kefalonia Flotilla that we bumped into during the week (they may not be the same crew of course but i understand they tend to stick to their yachts). I had cause to speak to the lead boat 'Quest' crew several times owing to a challenge we were having with our outboard, I found them remarkably courteous and helpful and I came away feeling pretty pleased that we had chosen Sunsail has an operation to sail with. We were not part of the flotilla but they clearly felt a duty to go above and beyond to help us and were flawlessly professional.

I'm surprised to learn that this same team were involved in this incident. I noticed this post on the Sunsail Facebook page yesterday and saw that the base manager had asked for more details, the pictures will certainly give her enough to be able to get to the bottom of this. I agree Sunsail have a duty to police their charterers in this respect and encourage respectful chartering. The initial charter briefing we were given laid on thick that we all have a responsibility to keen our oceans and sailing areas clean.

Not being there means you may never truly understand context as a spectator to this debate but often context helps us understand initial reaction. It's not unusual for people to respond adversely when being berated for something they aren't directly responsible for; right or wrong. Their limbic centre takes over and the defences come up often fuelled by frustrated regret that they hadn't dealt with it themselves before being called on it; it happens to the best of us and more often when we are younger. Is it possible that the clear incredulity of the situation was expressed in such a way as to appear condescending and thus exacerbated this? If so there are lessons for the guys who pointed it out in the firest instance, heed them and you will be truly helping educate the next generation (These guys are the next generation, they're the future base managers and operators). The great and good things have been done here to ensure this is a learning experience and I'd be fairly certain that lessons have been learned will serve those involved for years to come. In my experience that lead crew are good guys and Sunsail are a responsible company that i'll be pleased to charter from again.


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