# Why is this a bad idea?



## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

I'm on a water budget (on the beer to champaigne budget scale), but I like to dream, and I like to figure out what changes I might make to make my "next" boat better for my family and me. One of the things that we REALLY want in our next boat is a good swim ladder. It was a real challenge to climb aboard our 1984 Catalina 25 via the ladder. The round rungs hurt my kids' feet (and mine), and the stern rail was VERY awkward to get over/under. I'd really like a sugar-scoop transom, or even a swim platform (like the O'Day 272's), but I'm not overly picky.

One idea that struck me was to just put a small, powerboat-style swim platform on the back. Sure, with the way the transom slopes on many sailboats boats, I'd probably have to find a way of offsetting the mouting brackets, I'd want to reinforce the transom in that area, etc., but that all is "do-able". And it strikes me that a lot of people want to, and actually do, swim off their boats or use a dinghy, and both scenarios seem to benefit from such a swim platform. So, why don't I see a lot of them on sailboats? Or, put another way, why is something like the picture below (which is from a sailboat, if you couldn't tell) a bad idea?


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

How about this simple solution. Not expensive either. Get some teak boards or nice oak boards Cut to fit each step, Taper or round edges so they arent sharp. Then attach with 3 tube straps to each rung of your swim ladder.

I did this 12 years ago and take them off every 5 years or so to revarnish.

Here are examples, but you can get wood amywhere

Two Hole Strap by CADDY - Pipe Hangers and Clamps by Zoro Tools Industrial Supplies

Teakwood 23 1/2 Inch Boat Step

Putting steps into the boats stern will require backing plates and a lot work for the expected reward I think. They will have to sipport a lot of weight in a small area.


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

jimgo said:


> I'm on a water budget (on the beer to champaigne budget scale), but I like to dream, and I like to figure out what changes I might make to make my "next" boat better for my family and me. One of the things that we REALLY want in our next boat is a good swim ladder. It was a real challenge to climb aboard our 1984 Catalina 25 via the ladder. The round rungs hurt my kids' feet (and mine), and the stern rail was VERY awkward to get over/under. I'd really like a sugar-scoop transom, or even a swim platform (like the O'Day 272's), but I'm not overly picky.
> 
> One idea that struck me was to just put a small, powerboat-style swim platform on the back. Sure, with the way the transom slopes on many sailboats boats, I'd probably have to find a way of offsetting the mouting brackets, I'd want to reinforce the transom in that area, etc., but that all is "do-able". And it strikes me that a lot of people want to, and actually do, swim off their boats or use a dinghy, and both scenarios seem to benefit from such a swim platform. So, why don't I see a lot of them on sailboats? Or, put another way, why is something like the picture below (which is from a sailboat, if you couldn't tell) a bad idea?


I like it, there is no reason it wouldn't work in your application. The only drawback would be the peanut gallery on the water harumphing at your DIY solution and straying from the norm.

I say go for it!


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

Chef, that was already in the plans if there was an existing ladder. I figured a board cut to the full width of the ladder would work (my plan was to use the white PVC "boards" they sell at Home Depot, since they are outdoor rated, and should be cooler than darker woods). Drill or cut a 1" notch/half hole in the middle of each end, and slide into place. Secure with the U-shaped clamps in your link, and voila.

But some of the boats I've looked at don't have a ladder. If I'm going to have to make/install something anyway, why not go with something like this? I agree about having to put a backing plate - a large piece of starboard should work. Of course, I'll need access to that area of the transom, but assuming that's available, are there any other down-sides?

One idea that struck me was that, if I was in rougher water, the force of the water on the swim platform might be significantly more than the force of my fairly substantial butt on that same platform. So, I'll need to make sure the transom is properly reinforced. A swim platform would also limit my ability to add an outboard on a proper outboard bracket, should one become desirable for some reason. But, if it's done properly, the platform could also serve as an emergency mounting bracket for an outboard.

So, what else am I missing?

By the way, I'm not entirely convinced that this is really what I want to do, just soliciting opinions.

Thanks!


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

We've seen lots of similar platform projects - even on a C&C 35 MkIII !!  

No reason it can't work. You'll still need a good, deep ladder for ease of boarding from a swim.. the ladder could be make to match the angles from the platform, up the transom, and even up against the stern railing if that works.. And it all needs to be well reinforced, as you say.

Do a good looking job and I don't think there'll be too many naysayers..the practicality outweighs any negatives and it's easier than taking a chainsaw to the transom to create a "modern" walkthrough .... In many marinas it may cost you a few bucks a month in moorage if they catch on.


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## Geoff54 (Oct 30, 2011)

From the angle of the picture, it looks like the example that you used could do with better hand holds for the upper steps.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

jimgo said:


> Chef, that was already in the plans if there was an existing ladder. I figured a board cut to the full width of the ladder would work (my plan was to use the white PVC "boards" they sell at Home Depot, since they are outdoor rated, and should be cooler than darker woods). Drill or cut a 1" notch/half hole in the middle of each end, and slide into place. Secure with the U-shaped clamps in your link, and voila.
> 
> But some of the boats I've looked at don't have a ladder. If I'm going to have to make/install something anyway, why not go with something like this? I agree about having to put a backing plate - a large piece of starboard should work. Of course, I'll need access to that area of the transom, but assuming that's available, are there any other down-sides?
> 
> ...


Many sailboats with rear ladders also have a gate in the back so you dont have to go over the rail.

If you construct this Just make sure you have a way to get onto the platform which drops in the water as Faster said. Its hard to lift up or put you foot on your platform out of the water, especially with the stern bobbing up and down. Thats why the bootom two rungs of most ladders are under water out of the water

Another thing you could do is put a shoe and have a side ladder.

Side boarding boat ladder - BERMUDA-B - PRASOLUX, Peter Prass


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## justflie (Apr 10, 2012)

Be salty and make a ladder from manila line! Ladder step mat for the the bottom rung and maybe wood slats for the rest? Throw it over the side when you need it and wrap it up for storage when you don't.


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

Justflie, I actually DID make a rope ladder! Not out of manilla, but the red poly line from Harbor Freight. When my old boat was on blocks last winter, the first few times I visited the marina, I could get to the swim ladder and get aboard. Then one day, they moved a boat behind mine, close enough that I couldn't get to the swim ladder, and basically making entring from the transom very difficult. I couldn't fit a big enough step ladder into my car, so I made the rope ladder. I was able to scrounge enough stuff at the marina to reach up and attach the rope to a cleat, and then I could climb aboard.

I learned that the problem with "hull mounted" rope ladders is that when you put your weight on them, they press against the side of the hull, and the little rope "steps" just aren't wide enough to be useful. If you're lucky, you'll get the tips of your toes on each step. Don't get me wrong, they'll do in a pinch, but in my experience, they just aren't that practical. One thing I considered doing was adding wooden treads to give me more surface area to step on.

All that being said, a rope ladder could work if it hung off the swim platform.


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## justflie (Apr 10, 2012)

Sweet deal. To bad it's not practical but good on you for trying it out.


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## Trailblazer (Apr 29, 2012)

I mounted a small teak swim platform on each side of the center mounted boarding ladder on my '81 Hunter 30. I had to do some adjusting (cutting and bending) on the stainless steel supports to level the platforms on the angled transom, but it worked great. I just used stainless steel fender washers for backup plates. One Gulf Stream crossing I was buffeted by 35 knot winds and 15 ft seas for 12 hours with no damage to the swim platforms. I even had a 1 gallon can of gas for a generator strapped to on one of the platforms.
An earlier post suggested galvanized conduit straps to attach treads for the ladder steps. This will work fine in fresh water, but the galvanized metal would only last a few months in salt water.


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

ease of access is not a bad idea until someone enters your boat because of this ease of access and beans you and robs you. i have nice high freeboard and no access. not a big deal.


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

Other than structural support and watertight issues the only thing you want to pay attention to is to make sure that the bottom step/platform is out of the water by 12-18 inches, that will keep it from dragging along when you are at speed and have a stern wave. 
You'll need to have a ladder that hooks to the bottom so you can climb up out of the water of course.


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

Thanks everyone! If you look at the timing of my thread, the swim platform idea came to me late last night. I've been able to do some research since then, and have come across some really great threads here and on CruisersForum. Here are a few links, for those interested:

Teak Swim Platform - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/attachments/gear-maintenance/3360d1234754343-swim-platform-66d6_1.jpg
This is the quote from SailNet user Guidera48 on the above platform:


> I recently inspected a Hunter 30 in Havre de Grace, MD. The owner is an avid carpenter and had many wood upgrades made. One of them was this swim platform. It looked good and was very fuctional. The chains are necesary but look a little home made. A solid tube would double as a handle, however it would not allow the platform to be folded. A divers ladder attached under the platform. Sort of a trailer hitch 2" square pipe receiver for the ladder. It suported a fully equipped diver.


This thread had some interesting side-boarding ladder ideas:
Swim Platform - Pro & Con - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

Here's another with some interesting pictures:
Swim Platform Design - Cruisers & Sailing Forums


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## knuterikt (Aug 7, 2006)

jimgo said:


> I'm on a water budget (on the beer to champaigne budget scale), but I like to dream, and I like to figure out what changes I might make to make my "next" boat better for my family and me. One of the things that we REALLY want in our next boat is a good swim ladder. It was a real challenge to climb aboard our 1984 Catalina 25 via the ladder. The round rungs hurt my kids' feet (and mine), and the stern rail was VERY awkward to get over/under. I'd really like a sugar-scoop transom, or even a swim platform (like the O'Day 272's), but I'm not overly picky.
> 
> One idea that struck me was to just put a small, powerboat-style swim platform on the back. Sure, with the way the transom slopes on many sailboats boats, I'd probably have to find a way of offsetting the mouting brackets, I'd want to reinforce the transom in that area, etc., but that all is "do-able". And it strikes me that a lot of people want to, and actually do, swim off their boats or use a dinghy, and both scenarios seem to benefit from such a swim platform. So, why don't I see a lot of them on sailboats? Or, put another way, why is something like the picture below (which is from a sailboat, if you couldn't tell) a bad idea?


It's done on many boats around here.
There are even kits available
Ankarspel Badplattform Badstege LED Peke | Btsystem

Direct link to swim platform catalog
Product Catalog

Gallery
Show News


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

Knuterikt,
Thanks! I especially like the one with the rudder cut-out! Very cool!


Zeehag, I can appreciate your concern, but I expect my boat to spend most of her time at the dock, where everyone will be easy able to climb aboard anyway.


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## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

I needed a better swim ladder but in that we sail in Maine mostly, our swim ladder gets infrequent use. The best ones were high cost for our use, so I decided to build a simple something I could knock down and leave in the lockers for a few days a year.

I sort of ended up with this as a mock up, I thought, but I think it's permanent now. I used a set of old boarding ladder hitches mounted on the hull to affix the new one. I got a lot of laughs on it in the design stage from my family as put it together at home. "Ha ha...dad,...you can't be serious,..."

But I put this on the side of the boat after arriving in Cuttyhunk from Maine a few years ago, and everybody stopped laughing.

For the first time, they had a nice wide foot sized step, well below the water, for an easy use climb. The hand holds take all the work out of easily stepping up. The dinghy fender material attached to the rails just below the carriage bolt head that slide into the old mounts, stabilizes the ladder against the hull.

Your weight pins it plumb and tight to the hull. The problem now, people like to linger and hang out on it so there can be a line to board.... 

Now the first thing I have to do when the water is warm, is pop the rails into the gains cut in the treads, and tighten the wing nuts(it stows to a small package). Just pine, some hardware, paint.

They don't laugh at my ladder anymore,...


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

Thanks Tom! In researching what you meant by "old boarding ladder hitches" I came across this thread, and at the bottom is another great example of a side boarding ladder:

Swim ladder- anybody have a great one?

The problem with ladders is that they don't give a wide platform, and I would love to snorkel/scuba off of my boat at some point. Though, as a practical matter, that won't probably happen until my kids are about 7 years older than they are now, and I may be on another boat at that point!


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

The only issue, if the platform is made very large, is the effects of following seas crashing down on it. Keep it fairly small, allow the water to flow through, and it's no problem. The one in the picture looks perfect.

Just don't get carried away. I've seen boats with what looked like a back patio attached to their transoms. Not only abominable looking, but dangerous in a following sea.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

The C-25 ladder is bad, but most sailboats have a transom mounted ladder that solve your main two concerns. This is what the ladder looks like on my Pearson 28-2:









That isn't my boat, but it's the same model. I've seen the same design on dozens of other boats.

The latter has real treads (an optional upgrade on the Catalina 25, Catalina Direct sells the treads) which makes it easier to walk up. When the ladder is swung down it opens up the stern pulpit so that you don't need to go over or under it. It's not as easy as a sugar scoop, but it's a lot easier than the C-25.

One downside of the addition that you are suggesting is that it increases LOA and thus moorage fees. That addition would cost me $80/mo since it would push me from a 30' slip (my boat is 29'6" long from the front edge of the bow pulpit to the tail edge of the transom) into a 34' slip.


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

I had that same thought, Alex. Did you see the folding platforms?


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

Sorry, I missed the folding ones. I actually went back through and still didn't see them.

To answer something else that came up: I did snorkel off of my C-25 ladder a few times. I used fins with booties and put the fins and mask around one arm as I went down the ladder. Put on the fins and mask in the water. To climb out I did the reverse and tossed the gear into the cockpit before climbing in. The booties make the C-25 stairs less annoying.

This would be a lot harder with scuba, but not so bad if your dive buddy got in the water first with no gear, you passed gear down, and then got into the water and put it on. A pain compared to a dive boat, but not that bad.

The other style of ladder that I showed would make it a lot easier since you don't need to haul stuff up and over the stern pulpit. The ladder on my Pearson is also much wider than the C-25 ladder (I'd guess another 6").


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

Alex,
The links to the folding platforms are in post number 14 in this thread , which you should be able to see here.

But here's a picture of what I meant:









I like your idea of passing the stuff down to your dive buddy. Getting out, when you're tired, could be more exciting. And I like the Pearson's rail and ladder; that's much better than the C25's. I'm 99% sure the 25's rail actually leaned out, which made climbing over it very awkward. The cleat location made it really hard for my kids to climb under it, too. So, we're looking forward to a new solution!

Thanks for the pointer to Catalina Direct for the ladder "steps".


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## SailingJackson (Jan 1, 2011)

Generically it's a fine idea, except the C25 has a transom hung rudder. Where does your rudder go when the back of the boat is filled with those beautiful steps?

GJ


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

I don't have my C25 any more, but that's an excellent question. That's why I liked this platform:









Now, realistically, on the C25 I had an outboard, too, so I could only have hung one of the little platorms on the port side, but still, it's a neat solution.


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