# Getting the right size...



## Dean101 (Apr 26, 2011)

Hello to all.

I am looking for advice/input from true liveaboard cruisers on how much space you thought you would need when you first moved aboard versus how much space you actually require after a year or two of living aboard. I am very interested in learning from others how their perspective of space has changed as they became more accustomed to the cruising and liveaboard lifestyle. 

I have been researching boats in preparation of buying, living aboard, and cruising to wherever my whims take me. Since I have never lived aboard or cruised extensively, I am trying to get some idea of how much boat I am going to need. I have read accounts of how people who have made the transition from living ashore to living afloat have discarded much, if not all, of their material possesions and never looked back. They seem to find plenty of room on their boats for the few things they need. Others appear to upgrade to larger boats for the extra room and comforts they afford. I'm sure this is mostly personal preference.

As for me, I have camped comfortably (for me anyway) for as much as 7 days at a time from what I could carry aboard my 13' kayak and loved it. As I look around my 2800 sf house, I could pack everything I actually use on a regular basis in my Ford Explorer. I do want a little room to grow on my boat in the event of guests and I definitely require at least 6'2" of headroom minimum. In addition to spares and stores, about all I would require space for would be books, my carpentry and concrete finishing tools, and my kayak.

At this point, I have been thinking a boat around 37' would suit my needs but I'm wondering if my reasoning may be influenced by the fact that I'm writing this post from the couch in my 2800 sf home. What do you think?


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## captiantim68 (Oct 16, 2010)

My guess would be that you can drop anywhere from 5 to 10 ft off that 37 and be very comfy.

My wife and I have been living on our boats with 3 kids for 4 years now and found that 2/3 of the crap we thought we had to have to be comfortable got pitched within the first year.

Start looking at 27 to 32 and I think you will be nicely surprised how comfortable you can be in a smaller easer to maintain and defiantly cheaper in morage and maintenance fees, and most importantly easy for one or 2 people to sail.

We are currently refitting or 34' for a 5 year voyage with the kids ages 7, 9, 11


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## sawingknots (Feb 24, 2005)

my biggest problem comcerning space is i just can't rest unless i have bunches of stuff i'll probably never need and i have spares/backups of everything,a couple of times this paid off but still.....


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## tomperanteau (Jun 4, 2009)

One thing that the wife and I have learned over the past three boats, is that beam is probably more important than length. You will get more out of a 34 foot with a beam of 11.5 feet than you will with a 36 foot with a beam of 10. The obvious is that the additional room from the beam is available over a longer portion of the length. The additional length is only available to a small portion at the ends. This is of course a generalization that is dependent on many things, but it generally holds.

The wife and I are happy with our current 36 footer. We have found that, with the occasional guests for a weekend cruise, between 36 and 41 feet is a good length. Keep in mind that we have already sold the home, second car, and all of our belongings that would not have fit on the boat. Already pruned our lives down to the minimum. If we do upgrade to a larger boat, beam will be the prime concern, and we will not go longer than 42 feet. Chances are we will stick with what we have and tailor it to our needs. With as soft as the boating market is now, it might behoove you to buy a smaller (28-30 foot) boat and see how it works out for you. You would then be in a position to think of how many more feet you need to be happy.

Just my thoughts.


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## wingNwing (Apr 28, 2008)

Tom makes a valid point. We've spent the last 9 years living comfortably on a (wide) 33-footer. My advice would be, don't take your land-based understanding of what you "need" with you when you go boat-shopping. For example: on land, you may think you need a second cabin to serve as a home office. Once you move aboard, you realize that you never needed that, you can do just fine making your home office as your boat's nav station. 

One way to plan what you really need to move aboard, something we call "shopping at our house": take everything (EVERY THING) out of your kitchen cabinets and put it in the basement. Then, live your normal life. When you need something, go downstairs and get it. Sooner or later, a few weeks or a month into the project, you'll decide to use a chef's knife instead of going downstairs to get the super-special-tomato-slicer-gizmo that you discovered in an infomercial... at that point you'll have separated your posssessions - you'll have a kitchen full of things you really use, and a basement full of things to sell on ebay or donate or give away. Repeat the process with your clothing, tools, whatever, and you'll be well on your way to moving aboard!

E-books, scanned photos instead of photo albums, and iPod instead of a collection of cd's are your friends. Figure out what makes you feel like you're 'camping out' - whatever it is for you - and make sure your boat accomodates that. (For me, that was walking back from a marina shower at 6 AM in the winter with wet hair. So, our ideal boat demanded hot water and a head with hand-held shower hose.)

Good luck, we love living aboard and probably won't go back to land unless old age and illness force the issue.


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## vagabondette (May 19, 2011)

Thanks for starting this. It's something I've been thinking of recently. When I first started thinking of buying I was sure I'd need something in the 38-42 foot range. Then I lived aboard a 41' for 6 weeks and realized I could *easily* live in about half that space. So now I'm looking in the 26-30 foot range with a goal of about 28'. One thing that makes it easy for me is that I am already a traveler. I've been on the road with nothing more than a 60L backpack for over 2 years now so once I get on a 28' boat I won't know what to do with all the space I'll have!


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## tomperanteau (Jun 4, 2009)

There are a few boats that I have researched that, although they are too small for what we need, they have a lot of room for their size and they are totally charming.

First that comes to mind is the Dana 24. It is a great boat in its size and very well built. 

Next would be the Westsail 28 cutter. Great boat, although some would say that it's rather slow. Very sturdy and over-built for blue water. 

Then there is my favorite of the too-small-for-me boats; the Fisher 30 motor sailer. It's a really large 30 footer, and they sell larger boats, too.

Have a look-see at those and report back!


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## Lenchew (May 14, 2011)

*Advice needed for Beneteau 352.*

Hello All:

Can Beneteau owners please kindly share their experience with this boat as we are thinking of buy the 1997 Beneteau 352 for about 85000. Yanmar 3GM has 700hrs. Electrics basic.

We (me,wife and son 36) will use it mainly for day sailing and very occasional overnights.

Many thanks.
Len


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## JiffyLube (Jan 25, 2008)

I like the particular 36' boat we have, but we haven't lived on it yet. As I keep updating the current systems on board, I'm also thinking about where to put the other systems we'll be using when we go cruising. Now I'm beginning to think we should have gotten a slightly larger boat, but this is the boat we have so we'll make due with what we have. One person on our boat would be perfect, but as soon as you have two people the available space seems to shrink by half. For me I like the idea of having another compartment to set up like a small office, and it would give a person a good place to have a little privacy if they felt the need.


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## Dean101 (Apr 26, 2011)

*Many thanks for the input*

Thank you all for the great advice!

WingNwing, I like the idea you put forward. That would really put needs vs wants to the test so I may just try it. My camping expeditions have been almost exclusively in remote areas with only what I can carry so I can relate to the point that Vagabondette makes. I do have a tendency to leave anything that I find in the very bottom of my pack or the peak of my kayak's internal compartment at home on the next trip.

Tom, I like the picks you suggested, with the exception of the motorsailer. I am not a big fan of those for the reason of the motor. While I do use the motor for entering/leaving the marina area, I never liked listening to the hum of a motor. It tends to put me to sleep, LOL! But the Dana and the Westsail are both beautiful boats. I love the traditional looks and, indeed, the Westsail 32 is on my final list of choices. 32' to 41' comprise the range of lengths when I look at the list I've made. All have a full or at least long fin keel and most have the canoe stern with the Cape Dory's being one of the exceptions I can think of without actually looking at the list.

I can see the point you make concerning beam also. The Endeavor 32 that I briefly owned had 10' of beam and I often visualized what 1 more foot of beam would allow for that boat. All of the boats that made my list have the U-shaped galley, which seems safer to use at sea and is one of the things I had wished the Endeavour had.

CaptainTim, your plans of a 5 year cruise on a 34' boat with 5 individuals really makes me reconsider what I will actually need. As I will most likely be sailing alone I will probably not need the amount of space I think I do. When I sit down to look at boats I do generally start around the 32' range. When I think about my search habits, I tend to end up with the longer boats. Now I am thinking I'm getting caught up in the "bigger is better" mindset.

Lately, I have started viewing all the useless things I've acquired over the years as anchors. I drag them around, never use them, but the tend to distract me. One of the main reasons for wanting to transition to life afloat is to get rid of these things. When camping, I tend to feel much less distracted. My thoughts tend to be more focused because of it and I feel much less weighed down by, at times even free of, the materialism of mainstream society.

Out of curiosity, do marinas tend to require a certain boat length for liveaboards? I am planning on spending a year or two around Norfolk to attend some sailing schools and gain some much needed offshore experience before I head out. I was actually hoping to find a berth near other liveaboards so I can pick them for advice. I must say that I'm glad I ran across this forum. The posts made by all have taught me much so thanks again for your advice. Keep it coming!


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

Though biased, I have to admit I like my Ontario 32. The only change I would make to it would be to carry the beam back further (but hey, it's an '84 and they didn't really do that then).

It has 6'4" headroom, from the companionway to v-berth. 72 gals of water, w/hot water heater. More storage than I've been able to fill ... so far. And sails well. A bit bigger engine (it only has a 13hp) would be nice, but not essential.

It was designed by C&C to be an ICW, Bahamas, Coastal Cruiser and it does it well. Small enough for me to man-handle, yet big enough to let me stretch out. And it has good ventilation.

To me, the hardest part of finding a boat is knowing, for sure, how you want to use it. Not what you might do, but what you realistically WILL do. I knew I'd be happy as a coastal cruiser, so I didn't need a "bluewater" boat. So I looked for a boat suited to what I'd do.


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## arknoah (Oct 31, 2010)

Dean,

You may find this blog helpful: Simply Sailing Online.

They sail in a 34 foot cutter rig in the Virgin Islands, and the author speaks often about how they provisioned Eurisko, and how they have managed over more than nine years. Originally, they had five people -- the parents and three boys in the boat, and they managed quite well.


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## arknoah (Oct 31, 2010)

wingNwing said:


> One way to plan what you really need to move aboard, something we call "shopping at our house": take everything (EVERY THING) out of your kitchen cabinets and put it in the basement. Then, live your normal life. When you need something, go downstairs and get it. Sooner or later, a few weeks or a month into the project, you'll decide to use a chef's knife instead of going downstairs to get the super-special-tomato-slicer-gizmo that you discovered in an infomercial... at that point you'll have separated your posssessions - you'll have a kitchen full of things you really use, and a basement full of things to sell on ebay or donate or give away. Repeat the process with your clothing, tools, whatever, and you'll be well on your way to moving aboard!


We don't plan on living aboard, but we are cursed with far too much stuff. I bet I (we) could use this method in our house and really get rid of lots of things so our relatively small house would seem a lot bigger. Thanks for the idea!


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## Dean101 (Apr 26, 2011)

*Good point*

John, you bring up a very important point in my search. At many points I have read that one of the most important things to consider when choosing a boat is to decide where you want to sail. I didn't mention it in my first post but I do intend to cross oceans. Yes, I do intend to explore the coastal US. I also intend to experience the entire length of the Carribean. I also want to visit Europe from Norway to the Med and eventually head to the Pacific.

While in the Navy I had the pleasure of experiencing the sea from within 200 miles of Antarctica to above the Arctic circle in the Bering sea, the western Atlantic, around the horn, and into the Pacific and Indian oceans on an aircraft carrier. Now I want to experience those places on my own vessel and to go to places that carriers don't go. I do intend to stay relatively close to the Chesapeake while I learn, get to know my boat, and to gain offshore experience but I fully intend to voyage as master of my own boat. I definitely need something built to take punishment. Speed is not so important to me as strength and safety when the weather gets rough. I was on the USS Carl Vinson when her stem was buckled from hitting a wave during a typhoon and recall watching waves break over the flight deck a full 80' above her waterline. That was one hell of an experience!

Arknoah, thanks for the link! I checked it out briefly and yes, it is definitely helpful. I will be reading it more in depth later today.

Thank you both for the input!


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

Another thing you don't mention is the old bugagoo called money. Depending on your situation financially, you might want to consider a relatively inexpensive coastal cruiser to start, then, once you know, first hand, what you need, want, AND what it will take to maintain your lifestyle, you can move up to a bluewater boat.


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## Dean101 (Apr 26, 2011)

Yeah, no matter what, we all have to have a certain amount of money! That was one of the reasons I mentioned needing room for my tools. My reasoning is that since I am a carpenter and concrete finisher by trade, I can find work requiring those skills in order to refill the kitty when I need to. I would like to write also, although I have very little experience with it. The truth is that I don't require a lot of money to feel happy. 

I've noticed over the years that no matter how much money I bring home, my standard of living seems to keep pace. I am now consciously in the process of breaking that routine by drastically reducing my expenses while at the same time maximizing my income. I will be paying off all my debt, ditching the credit cards, living on my boat (when I buy one), and start living a much simpler life. I have read where people cruise on $500 to $1000 a month. I'm currently bringing home $650 to over $900 a week, depending on weather and work schedules. I figure if I can get the house sold I can pay off all my debt and save enough for a used boat at a reasonable cost within 2-3 years. If I continue to work while taking sailing classes, another year will get me pretty close to taking extended trips with experienced offshore sailors as crew. Another year of saving should leave me with enough to start my journey.

I don't want to wait till I have "enough" because I would then never leave the marina. Most of my friends ask me where I'm going to find the money to do this. Hell, they think I'm nuts for wanting it to begin with. I think they have pictures of wild parties at exotic marina resorts on megayachts! My visions are of a small boat swinging on her anchor off a pristine beach and me sipping cheap rum in my hammock swinging between 2 palm trees!


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## imagine2frolic (Aug 7, 2008)

You can alway move up in size, and to a stronger boat. The important thing is learning to handle the boat in al conditions. I lived on a 30ft. Columbia for years, and cruised her too. There was very little on the boat, and could sail with the time it took to slip the lines.

I now sail a 46ft. cat. Mostly it is wasted space until family, and friends show up. Which was often when we were cruising. Think about the space you need, and then a wee bit more, so you have something to grow into as life changes. The good news is your camping, and kayaking lifestyle is a big jump in the right direction for your transition........*i2f*


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

I was 3 years out when I made the decision to liveaboard. What I started doing at that time was buying nothing, unless necessary, that wouldn't be going on the boat. Also, paying off debt, and not buying anything on credit.

The early model Niagara 35's have the v-berth set up as a work space, by the by.


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## wingNwing (Apr 28, 2008)

I haven't seen the minimum length requirement for liveaboards in marinas here (Chesapeake/SE US coast) but have seen them in San Diego. BTW, if you can find one, add CSY 33 to your shopping list (photo in my sig); similar type to the boats you mentioned, lots of headroom, traditional look, and killer U-shaped galley.


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## Dean101 (Apr 26, 2011)

Thanks for the tip i2f! I'm pretty adaptable and can certainly pack enough stuff in my kayak to stay gone for a lot longer than a week. The problem lies in the fact that the longer I'm out there, the less I really want to come back!

Your advice about allowing just a wee bit more space for additions to the crew sounds good. I just don't want to fall back into the habit of collecting things I'll probably never use. I have thought about joining PRA (Pack Rats Anonymous) for help with that.

John, I'm already following your example of not buying on credit or buying eye candy. I think that credit is a serious trap that's easy to fall into. I will not be buying a boat until I can pay cash. I'm sick and tired of debt.

Does anybody have any regrets about moving aboard?


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## Dean101 (Apr 26, 2011)

I'll check out the CSY 33. Thanks wNw!


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## wingNwing (Apr 28, 2008)

Dean101 said:


> Does anybody have any regrets about moving aboard?


Just that we didn't do it sooner LOL!

think about this; We've saved vast amounts of money not having a house or land-based playthings. It may not be necessary to wait until all your debt is paid off if your situation is such that you can keep your existing job while moving from land to a marina-based boat and then paying down your bills at a faster rate. Just a thought.


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## wingNwing (Apr 28, 2008)

arknoah said:


> We don't plan on living aboard, but we are cursed with far too much stuff. I bet I (we) could use this method in our house and really get rid of lots of things so our relatively small house would seem a lot bigger. Thanks for the idea!


Ark, you're welcome! Husband Dan (the other "wing" of wingNwing) used to have a kitchen design/remodel business. This was the advice he used to give clients who came to him for storage issues, before he started their new designs.


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## Dean101 (Apr 26, 2011)

That's a good point and one that I have seriously considered. I live in Kentucky right now and have allowed for the possibility of finding a good deal on a potential boat. I could keep her on Kentucky lake, which is fairly large, and live aboard while I continue to pay off debt and save. They offer classes at one of the marinas there but only for basic keel boat. I haven't seen anyhing offered for heavy weather, offshore, navigation, etc. 

I can relate to your opinion that you wish you had moved aboard sooner. I've noticed that many people on here have that same opinion. I know I wish I had made this decision sooner...


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

No regrets here. Just wish I'd had more money at the time so I didn't have to stop and work for a while.


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## Dean101 (Apr 26, 2011)

PBzeer said:


> No regrets here. Just wish I'd had more money at the time so I didn't have to stop and work for a while.


HA HA! John, that statement says it all! I know I sound a little dismissive about money sometimes but I do understand what you're saying about the money issue. I think when it's all said and done, I will probably spend more than I planned just to get ready for my adventure. But I have made up my mind that it WILL happen. I'm flexible about time-frames, how and when I gain experience, where I move to when I get closer to the time, even whether or not I will have a special someone aboard when I leave. But leave I will. I'm committed to this dream.

I know there will be times I will wonder what the hell am I doing out here. I will go through weather that will scare the crap out of me. I'll probably say a thousand prayers when I see a giant wave coming at me off the beam. I'll cuss in languages nobody has heard of when I just can't get an anchor unstuck or the batteries go. But, all the fond memories I have of past adventures have one common thread. Not a single one of them was easy or without pain. I am definitely not going into this with my head full of cotton balls.

I'm learning everything I can from books, from online forums, any way I can. People like yourself, who take the time to answer questions from the inexperienced, go a long way in helping us newbies realize our goals and it is greatly appreciated.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

What I did, since I had a good sum of money when I retired, was spend it on the boat (no plans on getting a different boat later). If it needed repaired, but was marginal, then I got new. If it had life in it (10-15 years) then I repaired. Easier to spend the money when you have it, then to have to come up with it later.


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## Dean101 (Apr 26, 2011)

I guess that's the main reason for looking so hard at finding the right boat for me. I really don't want to buy something to learn on only to sell it later. I would rather buy something close to what I need and adapt myself to it. The mentality of boat size and my own tendency to look at ever larger boats prompted me to start this thread to begin with. 

I really don't think I need to look at boats over 37'. Many of the boats I've looked at are that length or shorter and seem to have all the room I really need. I think it's the fact that American society seems to condition one to the "more, more, more" attitude.


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## imagine2frolic (Aug 7, 2008)

You can definately find a boat to make you happy under 37ft. & in this economy there are some reasl deals out there. A 41 Choy Lee that was pristine just went for $14,000. That's an exceptional deal, but there are lots around. Just keep cruising yachtworld.com, and like sites, and don't be afraid to lowball.........*i2f*

Cruisers & Sailing Forums - View Profile: Soft Air


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## picomar (Aug 18, 2011)

Add Content


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## AlanF (Feb 27, 2012)

I went from living on a small-ish wooden 27 footer to an "enormous" 32 footer 19 years ago, and still haven't filled it up. As some have said before, beam, and the length that it is carried, is significant, and I'll add that the storage space is critical. My Westsail has relatively little living area, since the lockers are so deep, but I'm glad all that stuff is secure and out of sight.

When it comes to size for cruising, as compared to living aboard, I think there are additional considerations, not the least of which is will she carry a dinghy on deck or davits? And for living in a marina, it's not the size of the boat - it's the size of the dock box that matters! <grin>


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## DavidB.UK (Sep 11, 2011)

wingNwing said:


> One way to plan what you really need to move aboard, something we call "shopping at our house": take everything (EVERY THING) out of your kitchen cabinets and put it in the basement. Then, live your normal life. When you need something, go downstairs and get it. Sooner or later, a few weeks or a month into the project, you'll decide to use a chef's knife instead of going downstairs to get the super-special-tomato-slicer-gizmo that you discovered in an infomercial... at that point you'll have separated your posssessions - you'll have a kitchen full of things you really use, and a basement full of things to sell on ebay or donate or give away. Repeat the process with your clothing, tools, whatever, and you'll be well on your way to moving aboard!


Absolutely love this approach!


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## DavidB.UK (Sep 11, 2011)

Dean101 said:


> My visions are of a small boat swinging on her anchor off a pristine beach and me sipping cheap rum in my hammock swinging between 2 palm trees!


Fantastic!


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