# choice of manual windlass



## Rockter (Sep 11, 2006)

I have been considering a windlass for my boat.
It's a USC Polaris 36 (aka Union 36).
Laden, she weighs close to 11 tons.

The two options I have been looking at are....

Lofrans Royal Manual Windlass

...and....

The "Giglio" by the Italian outfit Italwinch.

The windlass must be a manual unit.

Does anyone have an opinion of either?

Thanks.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

I've had really good use and customer service from Lofranz. I'm on my second, after the first broke it's legs (still operated fine) after 30+ years.
If I may ask, is there a specific reason why you want a manual windlass? In my experience, for cruising a manual windlass can be downright dangerous, but if you have no interest in thinking about an electric windlass, I'll not continue now and waste your time.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Mine is a Plath bronze. It's worked flawlessly for over a decade, and is original equipment on my 43-year-old boat. They occasionally come up on the used market. 

The other windlass I own (but have never used) is the Simpson-Lawrence seatiger 555. Great reviews. And you can still buy them new of you want, but they also come up on the used market fairly frequently.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

I’m. It a cruiser but anchor well over 100 times a year. Love my Simpson Lawrence Hyspeed which I’ve used for 23 years with 1 rebuild for $250. Never let me down. 90 ft chain, 280 rope rode. Simple double action. 

I like the Lofranz. If we bit the bullet I would get that. No want for an electric one. To expensive, lots to go wrong you don’t have with a manual. It if you have the Seatiger...go with that


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## Rockter (Sep 11, 2006)

capta :

How is a manual windlass dangerous?
Why is an electric windlass not?


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Rockter said:


> capta :
> 
> How is a manual windlass dangerous?
> Why is an electric windlass not?


All sorts of _"what if!"_ scenarios can be tossed out. Of course, same goes for electrics, or indeed any piece of equipment.

I've cruised for the last 10 years with my manual windlass, traveling in some challenging areas. I almost always anchor out everywhere I go. And I've never yet been in a situation where my manual windlass placed me at any greater danger than having an electric. Might be more effort at times, or require different tactics than if I had an electric, but so far there's never been an unmanageable situation.

Here's a test: Compare the number of complaints and threads about electric windlass failures VS the number of similar manual windlass failures. Now, tell me which is safer .


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

MikeOReilly said:


> All sorts of _"what if!"_ scenarios can be tossed out. Of course, same goes for electrics, or indeed any piece of equipment.
> 
> I've cruised for the last 10 years with my manual windlass, traveling in some challenging areas. I almost always anchor out everywhere I go. And I've never yet been in a situation where my manual windlass placed me at any greater danger than having an electric. Might be more effort at times, or require different tactics than if I had an electric, but so far there's never been an unmanageable situation.
> 
> Here's a test: Compare the number of complaints and threads about electric windlass failures VS the number of similar manual windlass failures. Now, tell me which is safer .


Mine is better than yours is a silly discussion.

I began with no windlass and nylon rode. That was a lot of work and messy too especially shoving muddy ride into a small hole in the deck.

So I upgraded to a SL sea tiger I think... and it was easier to get the anchor and rode up. Paying out was usually never a problem. I don't recall if it handled chain and rope. But I decided to go offshore and would need a more robust anchoring system.

I decided after research to install a Maxwell vertical windlass w/ chain and rope gypsies and switch to all chain. As I short and single hand I put a reversing switch in the cockpit where I "drive" the boat from.... so I can do everything from the cockpit once the snubber is removed.

I developed a reliable anchoring technique with this system (mine).

I find it:

Easy to install... and not terribly expensive... $1,500 + few hundred for heavy electric cable and new chain.

MUCH MUCH easier that manually operating a lever on the manual windlass

faster in retrieving the chain

I can use 2nd anchor on nylon rode.

cleaner (as I can operate the windlass with foot switch and hose the chain coming up.

useful for things like sending someone aloft... I use a halyard on the rope gypsy

very reliable - lasted over 20 years with a lot of use... anchored every day for 3+ years

has a PITA manual override

does not need its own battery... runs off house battery which is being charged by engine when windlass is in use.

no strain on my back as the manual was.

No complaints!


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Rockter said:


> capta :
> 
> How is a manual windlass dangerous?
> Why is an electric windlass not?


 I have personally witnesses at least a half a dozen boats with manual windlasses caught in a sudden squall and begin to drag, including myself. Standing on the foredeck, most often in the middle of the night, cranking a manual windlass at a few inches per throw on the handle, leaves the anchor dragging across the bottom for at least a few minutes after it has broken free.

This is usually the point at which the person on the windlass is getting pretty tired and the person on the helm is having great difficulty keeping the boat bow to wind and in place. The boat is usually sliding from side to side, dragging the anchor closer and closer to the anchor tackle of other boats around it. I've seen the anchor foul another boat's and watched the ensuing difficulties, and rarely does either vessel come out of the encounter unscathed.
However, as most electric windlasses pull chain in the neighborhood of 60 feet a minute, it would need to be a very deep anchorage for that same anchor, in the same conditions, to be dragging across the bottom with the possibility of snagging another boat's anchor. Or consider, horrors of horrors, you have a big boat dragging down on you. Which do you think would give you the best chance of escaping damage free, 60' a minute anchor retrieval or a few inches a crank?

Furthermore, the one standing on the foredeck working the windlass has *two * hands available to steady themselves on a pitching deck foredeck, if they are using a foot switch.
Of course there are those who swear up and down that manual windlasses are the way to go, citing the fact that it is possible for the electrics to fail. Well, surprise of all surprises, every single quality electric windlass built for anything more that a toy boat has a manual back up with almost exactly the same mechanism (minus the double action) on any manual windlass. You just stick the supplied pole into the hole and crank, a few inches at a time. Of course, this shouldn't be necessary if one maintains their electric winch as one would any other piece of necessary and valued piece of equipment aboard, including the power source.
Like running aground, there are only two kinds of full time cruisers. Those who have experienced a sudden squall that brings a wind shift that puts them on a lee shore in the surf line, and those that will.

I've been one, with a manual windlass, and the boat pitching in the breakers, certain I was going to lose my boat. But as I had a friend aboard with the strength to pull up 200 feet of ½" chain and a 65# genuine CQR, hand over hand, I didn't. How many of you keep a 350# Fijian on hand for just such an eventuality? lol
Most of us need our engine running to operate our windlasses, so it would seem to me that the only cruisers who wouldn't install an electric windlass are those without the power to operate one.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

I might add that the retrieval speed of my electric windlass IS related to the force... In light wind the retrieval rate is I suppose spec. When there is virtually no or very little load it moves very quickly such as when the bow is almost over the anchor. Manual windlass moves at the same slow rate.

When I single hand and conditions are moderate and I am in an anchorage with boats around it is important to be at the helm with motor ready to be put in gear. The cockpit windlass switch allows more to get the anchor up AND avoid other boats and quickly steer out of the anchorage. Try that with a manual cranker.

Having had both I can without reservation say that the electric is far superior hands done.

I paid about $1,500 for Maxwell and the replacement and a new Lofrans lists for $1,300 a Maxwell sells for $2K. 

When I replaced my first Maxwell after 20 years I use a lower power model because most of my retrievals were not requiring 1,500# and I downsized to 1,000# and notice no difference.

I don't give a moment's pause if I think I want to move my anchor location... and have rather than ask someone who anchors after and too close to move. It's absolutely no effort to anchor with the electric windlass.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

SanderO said:


> I might add that the retrieval speed of my electric windlass IS related to the force... In light wind the retrieval rate is I suppose spec. When there is virtually no or very little load it moves very quickly such as when the bow is almost over the anchor. Manual windlass moves at the same slow rate..


Every windlass manufacturer I'm aware of does *not* recommend using the windlass to pull the boat forward, but power up on it so retrieval should be around max speed.
We mostly use the cantenary to get the boat moving forward unless the wind is over 25 knots, as I've found that powering up often wraps the chain around something, making retrieval more difficult.
As for your button at the helm, as convenient as it sounds, were you to pick up something like pictured below, in the middle of your chain, as it was ours, in Chaguaramas, Trinidad, a bunch of damage could be the result.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

SanderO said:


> I might add that the retrieval speed of my electric windlass IS related to the force... In light wind the retrieval rate is I suppose spec. When there is virtually no or very little load it moves very quickly such as when the bow is almost over the anchor. Manual windlass moves at the same slow rate.
> 
> When I single hand and conditions are moderate and I am in an anchorage with boats around it is important to be at the helm with motor ready to be put in gear. The cockpit windlass switch allows more to get the anchor up AND avoid other boats and quickly steer out of the anchorage. Try that with a manual cranker.
> 
> ...


You keep making references to manual windlass, have you ever had one?
I don't want to hear what your friends say, have YOU ever used one consistently. If so when and which one. They all are not the same.

Your electric is great, great when it works, but what about when it doesn't.

Also it sounds like your technique for weighing anchor is bastardized by you single handed nature. There should ne er be a difference in force pulling up the anchor unless of course you use the windlass to pull the boat toward the anchor.

When two people weigh anchor, which in most cases on here I would think, one person at the helm is responsible for moving the boat forward the other for reeling in the rode with either type of windlass. At no time is the windlass pulling the boat toward the anchor, so the load should not be changed.

When you get to be over top the anchor , the engine should be use to free it, not the windlass. Again your specific technique has bastardized that because you single hand. Make no mistake at no time should the windlass be used for that. I KNOW it's written in your electric windlass manual. Using the manual windlass to free the anchor put no strain like it would for an electrical.

I'm not against electric windlasses at all. What I don't understand is the vehemence against a manual one.

I know with CONFIDENCE that my mechanical won't ever fail.........do you have the same.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

I'm not anti-electric. I just know, after a decade of traveling and anchoring in pretty challenging areas, that a manual windlass has never been the limiting factor. It might require a different approach at times, but the idea that it is more dangerous simply isn't supported by any data I'm aware of.

Anecdotes are useful. Mine is I've never seen any boats come to harm due to their manual windlasses. I have personally known of a number of boats with electrics who have suffered serious situations when their electrics crapped out - something I've never experienced, or heard about, with a manual. Does that make electrics less safe?


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

capta said:


> Every windlass manufacturer I'm aware of does *not* recommend using the windlass to pull the boat forward, but power up on it so retrieval should be around max speed.
> We mostly use the cantenary to get the boat moving forward unless the wind is over 25 knots, as I've found that powering up often wraps the chain around something, making retrieval more difficult.
> As for your button at the helm, as convenient as it sounds, were you to pick up something like pictured below, in the middle of your chain, as it was ours, in Chaguaramas, Trinidad, a bunch of damage could be the result.


Thanks... I know how to use the windlass. The chain settles into a catenary and when you first retrieve you simply "pull" the chain taut and the cantanary is gone... but the boat begins to make way and the NEW caternary assists that and then you repeat now with some momentum way on.

I can only and do only pull the boats' weight in extremely calm conditions... and even then once it gets going it has momentum and doesn't require much force to keep it moving. My windlass is stronger than I am and I can pull the boat to the dock with a line.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

chef2sail said:


> You keep making references to manual windlass, have you ever had one?
> I don't want to hear what your friends say, have YOU ever used one consistently. If so when and which one. They all are not the same.
> 
> Your electric is great, great when it works, but what about when it doesn't.
> ...


YES..

I had a Simpson Lawrence from 1986 to 1991 when I departed. First year I had to anchor manually and I learned it was a *****.

When I have competent crew two people do the retrieval... one at the helm... the other at the windlass at the bow (me) usually calling out what to do.

I do not pull the boat to the anchor. I use the force of the catenary and the momentum of the boat... and usually there is not much load on the windlass.

So technically when you remove the catenary you are "pulling the boat to the anchor"... by lifting the catenary.

When it's windy and the chain is loaded it takes a bit of time because the boat doesn't get momentum and I retrieve in "small steps" removing the catenary then repeating and so on. When the bow is over the anchor or close to it, the anchor breaks free and the windlass can easily lift the chain and anchor.

I don't seem to need to motor the anchor free when I am "over it"... forward momentum seems to trip it out (CQR).. because the shank lifts from the sea bed to vertical and has little to no holding at that point.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Although I know the proper way to use a windlass, I will admit I often do use it to pull the boat up to the anchor . A little pull, a little centenary, another little tug. Certainly in benign to even moderate conditions, my manual windlass is more than up to the task. And as Sander describes, once you get a little momentum on, it becomes pretty easy.

With the manual windlass I can easily feel the forces at play. I can make constant and minute changes to respond to the changing dynamics. No way can I be as responsive using an electric.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

MikeOReilly said:


> Although I know the proper way to use a windlass, I will admit I often do use it to pull the boat up to the anchor . A little pull, a little centenary, another little tug. Certainly in benign to even moderate conditions, my manual windlass is more than up to the task. And as Sander describes, once you get a little momentum on, it becomes pretty easy.
> 
> With the manual windlass I can easily feel the forces at play. I can make constant and minute changes to respond to the changing dynamics. No way can I be as responsive using an electric.


Mike is correct.

Thought experiment. Windlass fails...

What to do?

You grab the rode or the chain and pull. What are you pulling as the anchor is still set?

Answer: You are pulling your boat toward the anchor.

Chain catenary is more "powerful" than a rope catenary... count on that. With rope you are pulling the boat and hopefully get some help from boat's momentum.

MOMENTUM is the key to retrieving an anchor without motor to it.

So I CAN motor to the anchor... AND retrieve it with windlass with the handy cockpit remote. And with some wind strengths that is exactly what I will do. A shot of foward.... neutral and let the windlass do its thing. 'Nother shot of forward and then the windlass again and so on... until windlass and boat's momentum are all that's needed. Boat's momentum takes it over the anchor and it breaks free and I can motor as the anchor is lifted through the water onto the bow roller.

I can also motor to a relatively crowded anchorage and drop the hook from the cockput with the remote switch. I have to get the anchor off the roller a bit... in advance so it's weight pulls the chain. I don't free wheel the windlass when I drop.

I let the wind push the boat as the windlass lays out the chain and I observe the depth markers in the chain. When I stop the windlass the wind will usually catch and push the bow off the wind. If the anchor sets... the bow will swing back. Then I observe that it the bow yaws back and forth as a sign the anchor is set. Then I set up the snubber... let out some more chain and observe the force on the compensator as it unwinds when the anchor is set.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Have had both manual and electric. Have had either one for decades. Single or been two running the boat. Very rarely more than two.

If I was on low 30’er and anchoring in 20-30’ feet but never more than that and never in very crowded anchorages don’t think it makes much difference electric v manual. However think the biggest advantage of electric is it gets the anchor up fast once it’s broken free. Although we stop the boat for the last few feet in a breeze or strong current you can drift a lot. Both when doing resets or leaving even with two you can get in trouble. Even pick up another rode. If you don’t stop you can scar up the front of your boat. If you power or sail around with the anchor in the water the chain can damage things even with a mixed rode. Going backwards slowly is sometimes a good technique to get the anchor up and flipped so it runs into the roller correctly oriented. Depends on the anchor. Hasn’t been necessary with the Rocna. 

Windlass never moves the boat. Use wave action or the bow thruster to break free not the engine. Pulling sideways take much less force. I worry about the pawls in the windlass be it manual or electric. Will do what I can to not excessively load the pawls. When stuck will tie a truckers hitch to the chain if a retriever wasn’t set up. Use that line doubled through a block to get 2 to1 purchase and run it to a primary if I think it safer than the windlass. Think folks don’t maintain their windlasses just like winches. Either electric or manual should last longer than you. Think if maintained it’s a non issue.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

I've found that once I'm straight above the anchor it will brake free in almost every case, though admittedly it takes a bit longer with the Rocna, but unless I'm in an emergency situation, I won't use the engine to break my anchor free. 

As for "Windlass fails..What to do?" I assume you are speaking of an electric. "Lots to go wrong you don’t have with a manual." Like what, specifically?

You put in the handle and presto, you have a manual windlass! What's the problem with that? So you have both available and that's got to be better than only manual. I can see no plus at all for a manual windlass.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

capta said:


> I've had really good use and customer service from Lofranz. I'm on my second, after the first broke it's legs (still operated fine) after 30+ years.
> If I may ask, is there a specific reason why you want a manual windlass? In my experience, for cruising a manual windlass can be downright dangerous, but if you have no interest in thinking about an electric windlass, I'll not continue now and waste your time.


I notice he did not actually answer your question, politely asked. I'm not a gadget guy, and I'm not a safety maven, but I'd have to give the nod to electric by a wide margin, and given production volumes, cheaper too.

---

And that after nearly loosing a finger in a windlass. I was kneeling on one knee only and a wake through my hand onto the chain at the same time my knee was knocked onto the up-switch. The glove saved me.

I mention this because after that experience I always either sat, stood, or knelt on BOTH knees. Never had another incident of any kind. If I were installing an electric windlass I would not use a foot switch for this reason; you can fall on it. I would install a switch on the rail.

---

I have had an electric windlass fail twice, probably with similarly sized ground tackle. Fortunately, the conditions were moderate. One of the times I was alone. It wasn't a big deal. The nice thing about a cat is that you can just pile the chain on the tramp for later sorting!


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

It makes sense for the foot switches to have hinged covers that can be easily flipped open with a toe.
I think of mine as if they are gas torch flames when near them
When you have others messing around on your boat, flip the breaker
I do like the foot switches


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

pdqaltair said:


> ...
> I mention this because after that experience I always either sat, stood, or knelt on BOTH knees. Never had another incident of any kind. If I were installing an electric windlass I would not use a foot switch for this reason; you can fall on it. I would install a switch on the rail.
> 
> ...


Why kneel? My foot switch are more than 27" aft of the windlass and right at the rail a place I actually never step... that is stand next to the life lines, They are FOOT switches and I will be standing... holding on to the line line with one foot near CL and the other pressing the switch. I also have an inner stay there I can hold. Switches are MOMENTARY and unless there is pressure they don't work. Falling would only turn it on for an instant if you managed to hit the switch with enough force to engage it. Your accident would not happen on my foredeck.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

pdqaltair said:


> I notice he did not actually answer your question, politely asked.


Gee, I thought I gave Lofranz a pretty good push, "I've had really good use and customer service from Lofranz. I'm on my second, after the first broke it's legs (still operated fine) after 30+ years"
Sorry it didn't meet with your approval as a good reference.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

'Nother thread off the rails...


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

capta said:


> I've found that once I'm straight above the anchor it will brake free in almost every case, though admittedly it takes a bit longer with the Rocna, but unless I'm in an emergency situation, I won't use the engine to break my anchor free.
> 
> As for "Windlass fails..What to do?" I assume you are speaking of an electric. "Lots to go wrong you don't have with a manual." Like what, specifically?
> 
> You put in the handle and presto, you have a manual windlass! What's the problem with that? So you have both available and that's got to be better than only manual. I can see no plus at all for a manual windlass.


Picture yourself on a 35 ft boat not you big boat
Picture layin heavy line back to your house bank or dedicated battery and
The expense. Plus holes for switches. $2500 to $3000 sound right
Picture most of us don't anchor in Caribbean anchorages 
Picture never had any issues with a manual......NEVER

Now that you have the picture , you now can see the advantage for me easily.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

RegisteredUser said:


> 'Nother thread off the rails...


And you consider *your* contribution helpful because?


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

capta said:


> And you consider *your* contribution helpful because?


You missed it...and auto lashed out.
Pdq referred to your good question

So now more lashing out
Jeez capt


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

chef2sail said:


> Picture yourself on a 35 ft boat not you big boat
> Picture layin heavy line back to your house bank or dedicated battery and
> The expense. Plus holes for switches. $2500 to $3000 sound right
> Picture most of us don't anchor in Caribbean anchorages
> ...


Fine, you don't want an electric windlass, but others may be interested in the advantages.
However, you didn't manage to answer the question I asked you specifically, "As for "*Windlass fails..What to do?*" I assume you are speaking of an electric. "*Lots to go wrong* you don't have with a manual." *Like what, specifically?"*


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

chef2sail said:


> Picture yourself on a 35 ft boat not you big boat
> Picture layin heavy line back to your house bank or dedicated battery and
> The expense. Plus holes for switches. $2500 to $3000 sound right
> Picture most of us don't anchor in Caribbean anchorages
> ...


This is my windlass

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Maxwell-VWC-1000-12v/113810361531?hash=item1a7fa04cbb:g:gGsAAOSwfgNdIk8s

$800

60 foot of #1/0 cable $144 on ebay

Maxwell foot switch on ebay $49 e/o

That's just over $1,000

Install is the same as for a manual... except running the cable to the main batt w/ fuse... and wiring/installing the foot switches.

++++

Scott on Oyster a sistership has a manual SL and he's out cruising in the Bahamas. He likes it and he's in maybe his mid 30s. ;-)


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## Lanealoha (Mar 5, 2017)

Good stuff. After figuring out my ground tackle set up this was going to be my next question. I was wanting to go manual as well for all the reasons mentioned re: electric. I'm down here at my boat and a dock neighbor wouldn't have it. So it got me thinking, since I never did, how about electric? I do see that there seems to be some suited for my boat that also have a manual function, so to me that sounds like a win-win. Other than the draw on the battery bank, and the running of wiring and switches and **** it seems that I have my bases covered for a power failure in the heat of the battle. No? What manual windlasses are out there other than this Lofrans one that I see?


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Lanealoha said:


> Good stuff. After figuring out my ground tackle set up this was going to be my next question. I was wanting to go manual as well for all the reasons mentioned re: electric. I'm down here at my boat and a dock neighbor wouldn't have it. So it got me thinking, since I never did, how about electric? I do see that there seems to be some suited for my boat that also have a manual function, so to me that sounds like a win-win. Other than the draw on the battery bank, and the running of wiring and switches and **** it seems that I have my bases covered for a power failure in the heat of the battle. No? What manual windlasses are out there other than this Lofrans one that I see?


Not a battery drain!!!!!!!!!!!!

When you are using your windlass your engine in on and it's replenishing amps drawn by the windlass. And it's on for no more than a minute or two at most I would think because it moves the chain at 50'/min or thereabouts.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

RegisteredUser said:


> 'Nother thread off the rails...


Nice contribution😊have anything positive to say😁


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

SanderO said:


> Not a battery drain!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> When you are using your windlass your engine in on and it's replenishing amps drawn by the windlass. And it's on for no more than a minute or two at most I would think because it moves the chain at 50'/min or thereabouts.


It uses no power?
Course it's a battery drain
How much does an average windlass draw

Also some of my friends have opted for a AGM separate battery in the bow area. Less weight ( short run of heavy wires) .

What size wire would you run to the windlass on say a 35 ft boat.? How much does it weigh or cost.

For our use, the $2500 spent on powered windlass isn't worth it.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

chef2sail said:


> SanderO said:
> 
> 
> > Not a battery drain!!!!!!!!!!!!
> ...


You use amps of course... but your alternator is replenishing as you run it. I find no loss of battery capacity. I used 2 30' 1/0 battery cable... runs in the bilge....to breaker then house bank. It adds a bit of weight...yes. Not as much as full water tank. ?. Didn't add battery weight... but the 2 8D are CL behind engine. Really... installation was easy.
Having had both... manual and vertical electric... I am all in for the electric.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

> Originally Posted by pdqaltair View Post
> I notice he did not actually answer your question, politely asked.


Well, I can post again what I immediately suggested: the Plath of SL Seatiger manual windlass. I even provided links.

For those considering electrics with viable manual backup (an fine combo), pay especial attention to how functional the manual option is. I know there are some excellent choices where the manual option actually works well, but there are many where it is only marginally functional in manual mode.


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## Lanealoha (Mar 5, 2017)

"


> When you are using your windlass your engine in on and it's replenishing amps drawn by the windlass. And it's on for no more than a minute or two at most I would think because it moves the chain at 50'/min or thereabouts."


Yes, I understood that.


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## Wewe (Aug 18, 2012)

A body have a hydraulic windlass?


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

MikeOReilly said:


> Well, I can post again what I immediately suggested: the Plath of SL Seatiger manual windlass. I even provided links.
> 
> For those considering electrics with viable manual backup (an fine combo), pay especial attention to how functional the manual option is. I know there are some excellent choices where the manual option actually works well, but there are many where it is only marginally functional in manual mode.


The manual option of the Maxwell VWC 1000 and 1500 is very slow. I've never used it actually but did try it. If I remember they provide an alum.. lever which you insert... rotate. remove and then reinsert, rotate and so on. YUCK

But so far the windlass is trouble free and the only PITA is running large cables to the house bank. But it is use for such a short time the battery drain is negligible... and as mentioned engine is running and replenishing amps windlass uses.

Also as noted the catenary does the real work...and the forward momentum of the boat.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

SanderO said:


> The manual option of the Maxwell VWC 1000 and 1500 is very slow. I've never used it actually but did try it. If I remember they provide an alum.. lever which you insert... rotate. remove and then reinsert, rotate and so on. YUCK


Yup, these are the kind which claim they can be operated in manual mode, but it is not very practical. I know there are some electrics which do operate in manual mode pretty well.

I'm not trying to suggest one type of windlass is better than the other in all circumstances. It's not hard to come up with _"what if?!?"_ scenarios where one would excel over the other. But I often see electric windlass owners claim they have the best of both worlds because they can use theirs in manual mode. For many (most?) electric windlasses this is more theoretical than practical.



SanderO said:


> But so far the windlass is trouble free and the only PITA is running large cables to the house bank. But it is use for such a short time the battery drain is negligible... and as mentioned engine is running and replenishing amps windlass uses.


Agreed. Kinda like the power required to start an engine, or even large pumps. The amp demand is big, but short.

I regularly sail off my anchor without starting the engine. I guess that would be less likely to happen with an electric windlass.



SanderO said:


> Also as noted the catenary does the real work...and the forward momentum of the boat.


Agreed. In light to even moderate conditions I use my windlass to pull the boat up to the anchor. But once the boat gets moving and gains a bit of momentum all you're really doing is just taking up the slack, while letting the catenary do the work to keep you going. Of course, this only works with chain rodes.

In heavy conditions we use the main engine to bring the boat up to the anchor. And on occasion we also need the engine to break the anchor out. But often the momentum will do the job.


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

MikeOReilly said:


> I regularly sail off my anchor without starting the engine. I guess that would be less likely to happen with an electric windlass.


Do you do that with an all-chain rode? I can see it with a nylon rode (let the boat sail till it tacks, pull in the slack madly, rinse and repeat) but I wonder how well that works with chain.

(maybe this is worth a separate thread: How to sail off the anchor/mooring)


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> Do you do that with an all-chain rode? I can see it with a nylon rode (let the boat sail till it tacks, pull in the slack madly, rinse and repeat) but I wonder how well that works with chain.
> 
> (maybe this is worth a separate thread: How to sail off the anchor/mooring)


Yup, all chain rode. I don't think the technique is much different. We hoist the main, but have it depowered. Then haul in till on top of the anchor, wait for the appropriate tack (if that matters), break and haul up the last length. Meanwhile helms person sails off using main.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Problem with winches is getting the chain or rode down inside the locker.... manually. THAT is it usually a royal PITA... like pulling it up manually piling on the deck and then getting it stowed getting it through the hawser hole. Chain will drop because it's heavy unlike rope.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

SanderO said:


> Problem with winches is getting the chain or rode down inside the locker.... manually. THAT is it usually a royal PITA... like pulling it up manually piling on the deck and then getting it stowed getting it through the hawser hole. Chain will drop because it's heavy unlike rope.


Depends on the boat and the hawse arrangement I suppose. On my current boat, with all-chain, it just falls down through the hawse naturally. I have a decent dead-fall height so it's easy, even if I'm doing it by hand.

My previous boat didn't have a windlass, so everything was done by hand. It was a rope/chain rode. The chain fell nicely through the hawse hole, but the rope was the PITA. Usually I'd end up with the rode piled on deck. Once underway I'd go back up and feed it down.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

SanderO said:


> Problem with winches is getting the chain or rode down inside the locker.... manually. THAT is it usually a royal PITA... like pulling it up manually piling on the deck and then getting it stowed getting it through the hawser hole. Chain will drop because it's heavy unlike rope.


That's so untrue Jeff of a manual windlass. Our horizontal windlass the chain drops right down the opening into the anchor locker , followed by the line rode. Falls in a nice coil.

So what you are saying is the winches for electric windlasses make them a poor vehicle for use when the electricity or winch doesn't work.

How often with an electric do you get a link jumping or jam.
?


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

chef2sail said:


> That's so untrue Jeff of a manual windlass. Our horizontal windlass the chain drops right down the opening into the anchor locker , followed by the line rode. Falls in a nice coil.
> 
> So what you are saying is the winches for electric windlasses make them a poor vehicle for use when the electricity or winch doesn't work.
> 
> ...


for a horizontal the drop is straight down through the hawserhole. But not for a vertical... unless I remove the cover with one small socket heat bolt which leads the chain down into the hawserhole. So YES I could remove the small cover and drop it straight down into the hold if I manually took in the chain.

So it's another step to use hand of hand.

Another advantage to the vertical w/ rope gypsy is that you have an electric winch to send someone aloft or even pull a bow line to bring the bow close to a dock etc...

I think I have had a hockled chain only a handful of times.. I reverse and let chain down and then slowly take it up... which I suppose cause to twist/hockle to move toward to anchor... and the anchor is clear it spins as it is pulled in and the chain straightens. Chain only twists when the boat is going round and round the anchor.

For me the electric has more benefits than risks and the cost vs manual... it seems worth it... in addition to being able to get the anchor up or down from the cockpit.

Now I have back and knee trouble and I welcome these sorts of mechanical assists. Makes a huge difference. I use a Milwaukee to raise my heavy main... and it's now easy peasy.


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

MikeOReilly said:


> Yup, all chain rode. I don't think the technique is much different. We hoist the main, but have it depowered. Then haul in till on top of the anchor, wait for the appropriate tack (if that matters), break and haul up the last length. Meanwhile helms person sails off using main.


I have done it very rarely, always with nylon and always single-handed. Oh, and I am the windlass. Let the boat 'sail' itself (main only). Keep the rode under tension (with round-turn around cleat) while it is sailing, then haul like mad when it is coming over. Belay when rode stiffens and repeat.

Now I have all-chain. I could do the same but the belaying part is not so obvious. And, relatedly, I am a bit concerned that something unforeseen happens during the fast pulling-up of the rode and I get a finger under the chain or something.

How do you do it with your slow manual windlass?


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> I have done it very rarely, always with nylon and always single-handed. Oh, and I am the windlass. Let the boat 'sail' itself (main only). Keep the rode under tension (with round-turn around cleat) while it is sailing, then haul like mad when it is coming over. Belay when rode stiffens and repeat.
> 
> Now I have all-chain. I could do the same but the belaying part is not so obvious. And, relatedly, I am a bit concerned that something unforeseen happens during the fast pulling-up of the rode and I get a finger under the chain or something.
> 
> How do you do it with your slow manual windlass?


I'm lucky in that I cruise as a couple, so one of us is managing the anchor and one is in the cockpit, managing the main and the helm. If I was a solo act I'd only consider sailing off under ideal conditions. So, very rarely.

I haven't had a problem using the manual windlass. I think that's part of the misunderstanding about manual windlasses; they're not really that much slower than electrics. You just have to work harder to go faster. So the final length just means I'm working harder to pump the handle faster.


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

MikeOReilly said:


> I'm lucky in that I cruise as a couple, so one of us is managing the anchor and one is in the cockpit, managing the main and the helm. If I was a solo act I'd only consider sailing off under ideal conditions. So, very rarely.
> 
> I haven't had a problem using the manual windlass. I think that's part of the misunderstanding about manual windlasses; they're not really that much slower than electrics. You just have to work harder to go faster. So the final length just means I'm working harder to pump the handle faster.


I have never used a manual windlass. If it is inches per pump stroke, as they say, you must be a virtuoso on the windlass :captain:


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> I have never used a manual windlass. If it is inches per pump stroke, as they say, you must be a virtuoso on the windlass :captain:


I guess... Give one a try. You might be pleasantly surprised.


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## Lanealoha (Mar 5, 2017)

The Lofrans Royal says you get about 12"/ pull . That doesn't seem bad.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

MikeOReilly said:


> I guess... Give one a try. You might be pleasantly surprised.


On a decently sized boat I still cannot see one single advantage. If you buy a proper electric windlass you are buying an electric windlass that can be changed into a perfectly good manual windlass just as quickly as you can insert the cranking bar into the hole.Plusan electric can be operated by remote foot switch, cabled or non cabled remote and even a switch at the helm,not my favorite as I've stated before.I sincerely believe this is another one of those boating situations that if you use the boat enough there will come a time when the manual windlass will put your boat and her crew in danger.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

MikeOReilly said:


> II think that's part of the misunderstanding about manual windlasses; they're not really that much slower than electrics. You just have to work harder to go faster. So the final length just means I'm working harder to pump the handle faster.


 Oh Mike please. I really respect most of your posts, but with this one you've gone a bit overboard! It is blowing about 15nknots, busting to 18, in calm water.

Let us say you anchored alone in 30 feet of water which would leave you about 100 feet of gear out there. You have need get it up fairly quickly because a 70' island cargo boat to windward is drifting down on you. You have cranked as fast and hard as you can, but your tenacious Rocna just doesn't want to break free. You've go to be tired, on your last legs energy wise, as the saying goes, so your choices are let it all back out so you can cut the chain pennant or crank even faster and hope you'll not snag any other boast's gear.
Next time you need a small project, mark 60; on your chain and time how long it takes to pull it up the first time, and then perhaps the20th time when you are really tired. I'd be curious, as I have seen guys, in the pouring rain around 3AM, near exhaustion, trying their very best ti get that last 30' up without fouling another boat's gear with a manual windlass. It is heartbreaking to watch.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

capta said:


> Oh Mike please. I really respect most of your posts, but with this one you've gone a bit overboard! It is blowing about 15nknots, busting to 18, in calm water.
> 
> Let us say you anchored alone in 30 feet of water which would leave you about 100 feet of gear out there. You have need get it up fairly quickly because a 70' island cargo boat to windward is drifting down on you. You have cranked as fast and hard as you can, but your tenacious Rocna just doesn't want to break free. You've go to be tired, on your last legs energy wise, as the saying goes, so your choices are let it all back out so you can cut the chain pennant or crank even faster and hope you'll not snag any other boast's gear.
> Next time you need a small project, mark 60; on your chain and time how long it takes to pull it up the first time, and then perhaps the20th time when you are really tired. I'd be curious, as I have seen guys, in the pouring rain around 3AM, near exhaustion, trying their very best ti get that last 30' up without fouling another boat's gear with a manual windlass. It is heartbreaking to watch.


Same scenario.

1- You press the button on you remote....ooops out of batterie
Or
2-You run up to the bow....oops footswitch disconnected...short won't work
Or
3- You turn on the engine, click click click....Chinese fire drill as your windlass is wired to your dead batteries.

Now you panick......You quick run back to the cockpit and find your undersized winch handle to put into the dead electrical windless and since you never really practice this you struggle mightily

Now the hyperbole , My manual windlass doesn't use some short lengthen winch handle but uses an iron bar 3 ft in length. It doesn't really strain you using it unless you are a weakling. Retrieving 100 ft of chain won't take that long as it's double auctioned. Will it be as fast as a FUNCTIONING electrical windlass.....no one I think here claimed that. But manuals aren't quite as obsolete and physically demanding as you make them out to be.

Most boaters on here don't have 50 ft boats with 300 ft of chain. Most are recreational boaters. Spending $2500-$3000 dollars is a good amount of money on something that is surely a luxury and nice to have, but is way down my list. Let's see what can you buy for the $3000. Chart plotter, radar,
Refrigeration, new sail, dinghy and nice outboard, and lots of good Pinot noir spread out over a year. $3000 for something I use infrequently, when a manual will be perfectly fine. Cost of a new manual $1000 or less.

So if you have money to burn, and you are a weekend or short coastal sailboater like I am.....get something that gives you the bang for your buck.

NOTE TO OTHERS: I am not saying electric windlasses are not. Nice to have. If someone gifted me one, a wouldn't toss it overboard. But don't believe the hyperbole of some of the posters about a good old fashioned manual windlass. They really are bad and never have been a Chinese fire drill.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

capta said:


> Oh Mike please. I really respect most of your posts, but with this one you've gone a bit overboard! It is blowing about 15nknots, busting to 18, in calm water.


Cap, I really don't want to get into a pissing match about this. We all get that you disliked manual windlasses, perhaps for very good anecdotal reasons. We can all spin "What If!?!" scenarios till we're blue in the face. Unless you think I'm lying, or really don't know what I'm talking about, I tell you I've never encountered any situation which my stout, and problem-free manual windlass has not been able to manage.

Perhaps if I sailed boats of your size I'd come to a different conclusion, but mine is a 37-foot, 15-ton craft. For my boat, my manual windlass does fine, and comes with its own advantages.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

chef2sail said:


> Same scenario.
> 
> 1- You press the button on you remote....ooops out of batterie
> Or
> ...


Your scenarios are rather unlikely.

Sure you can have an electric fault.

But not enough battery? or discharged battery? Hardly likely. A prudent skipper is monitoring his batts regularly. I do.. and I don't have a constant draw of a refer as many do. I cool with my engine.

I have two switches... up & down and in the cockpit a DPDT up / down. all could fail... but not likely. When I set the rode down.. I see that they are working... Pretty good chance that when I use it the next time... it will work.

I have a 36' boat and 200' of 5/16" chain and the whole windlass and wiring was less than 1500. I carry a spare motor, and foot switches... picked up for a great price.

Sure if I had a history of problems with the electric my views would be different. I haven't and it was a great upgrade. I would not have a manual next time.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Under a grand
Wiring not included
https://www.defender.com/product.jsp?id=599900


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

RegisteredUser said:


> Under a grand
> Wiring not included
> https://www.defender.com/product.jsp?id=599900


Not buying it. Undersized , only 1000 lb pull. Won't last. Toy windlass with no drum or capstan. Great for a Grady White. At least profer up something worth it . Doesn't get good ratings . The Maxwell, Lofrans, Muir that are worth anything start around &1500. Even the good Lewmars are that.

Is this the windlass you would recommend to a friend of yours putting one on his new boat?

You have foot switch's, heavy wire and a robust battery bank to add to the price .

I am a DYI person and could install but many won't / can't/ don't have the time. So add labor in. Then of course over the life of the windlass you have solenoids which seem to last 3-4 years.

If you are considering a new windlass to add to improve your sailboat don't undershoot what it will cost.$2500 is a good estimate.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

chef2sail said:


> Not buying it. Undersized , only 1000 lb pull. Won't last. Toy windlass with no drum or capstan......


Been working perfectly on my boat that last 3 yesrs


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

We don’t have a switch in the cockpit. The remote is on a wire ~30’ long. Our windlass has an up and down button. Both are extremely fast to the point I think down is faster than gravity free fall. I always want to see the last few feet come up. Having had small stones and other debris stuck inside chain links want to see the whole chain come up. I want to see the shank rotated correctly so it goes over the roller correctly. I want to see what’s on the chain and anchor. I commonly go up/down repetitively to clean either anchor or chain or both. See no advantage to a cockpit remote 
. I get the anchor up then slack it a wee bit. That takes the strain off the internals of the windlass leading to a longer trouble free life. I’ve used a short line or the mantus hook to have no strain on the last foot of chain if it’s bumpy or going for more than a short trip. Use plumber putty to block the hole if on passage.
Both manual and electric break. Usually having nothing to do with the electric motor but rather parts shared by both types.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Would also mention this year was taught another best practice. If it's bumpy and there's green water frequently across the bow it's a good idea to turn the windlass breaker OFF. We've always done that for the bow thruster but now have added that to the list.
Think the focus here on breakage is misdirected. Biggest mistakes are lack of routine servicing and using the windlass for anything but picking up the rode. We use the engine every time. Whoever is on the bow signals rt/lt, forward and stop. Chain is up and down when retrieving. Bow thruster is a big help doing this. If alone will go back to engine controls. Power up enough there's no strain on the chain and retrieve as we drift back. Think except in dead calm using just the weight of the chain is insufficient. We are ready to go but don't put sails up until we're outside the anchorage. Don't want bumper cars. 
When I had smaller boats had a mooring. Did sail on and off. To the point that when it came time to haul engine overheated. Too many mussels growing in the exhaust!! Think that year had less than 2 hours on the engine the whole season. So if and when I go back to small boats if possible want an electric with a good fallback manual setting. Found the nerve racking time is how rapidly you can get the anchor up, sorted out and leave to open water. Pushing a button as you watch it come up then quickly getting back to the helm seems preferable even on a small boat. However there's a size (~<30') where electric makes no sense and a size (>60') where hydraulic makes better sense. If manual was required would go vertical with a longest handle possible. Especially with manuals the lay out of the bow( sloop v cutter, position of chain locker, sprit or no sprit etc.) is more determinate of what windlass to use then other considerations.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

outbound said:


> We don't have a switch in the cockpit. The remote is on a wire ~30' long. Our windlass has an up and down button. Both are extremely fast to the point I think down is faster than gravity free fall. I always want to see the last few feet come up. Having had small stones and other debris stuck inside chain links want to see the whole chain come up. I want to see the shank rotated correctly so it goes over the roller correctly. I want to see what's on the chain and anchor. I commonly go up/down repetitively to clean either anchor or chain or both. See no advantage to a cockpit remote
> . I get the anchor up then slack it a wee bit. That takes the strain off the internals of the windlass leading to a longer trouble free life. I've used a short line or the mantus hook to have no strain on the last foot of chain if it's bumpy or going for more than a short trip. Use plumber putty to block the hole if on passage.
> Both manual and electric break. Usually having nothing to do with the electric motor but rather parts shared by both types.


You make some good points about bringing up muck and getting the anchor to properly seat in the roller.

Obviously if you are at the bow and with a hose you can get most of the muck off the chain and shank and get the anchor to seat properly when the chain is not twisted which might cause anchor to not seat properly.

I have addressed some of your concerns on my boat by:

1. Having brushes bolted inside the cheeks of the bow roller assembly which "scrub" the chain as it comes up. This still allows much to make its way on the deck and run down the inside of the slotted track where there are weeps. There is some mud residue.

2. if need be, re set the anchor by letting some chain down and taking it up again until the chain is untwisted enough for the anchor to seat properly. I do this motoring when clear of other anchored vessels.

3. I use the remote switch when single handing to set the anchor at times. I do a pass and survey the location and the depth from by cockpit display. I then motor to the chosen spot and control the throttle to bring the boat to a stopped or almost and lay down the chain for several seconds. If there is no wind I have to reverse a bit to get the anchor to set. If there is some wind... the bow will inevitable be blown off. I often do NOT approach the spot eye to wind... but off 10 or 15 degrees. The wind will push the bow and when the anchor starts to set the bow will swing back to the wind. Then I can lay out more chain. and go forward to resume with the foot switches. Now I can observe the chain markers which tell me how much chain I have down. When the desire length is out...I hook on my snubber between the windlass an the bow roller. Its end is tied to the port bow cleat... windlass switches are near the starboard bow cleat. My 30' snubber has a mooring compensator and a float in case it somehow get free... I can hook it with a boat pole. I lay out more chain until the snubber is taking the load. Now I have to determine if the anchor is well set. If there is wind the compensator will untwist and indicate the anchor is holding and not dragging. If it does not untwist the anchor is dragging and not set.
If there is no wind I have to back down to perform the compensator test. I can do this from the cockpit with a blast of reverse and then go forward to observe the compensator.

I have retrieved the hook from the cockpit in a crowded anchorage with calm to light winds.... such as the inner Rodney Bay anchorage in Saint Lucia. Then I slowly raise enough chain to get the hook over the roller and go forward to remove the snubber. I then return to the cockpit and reverse and steer so that I stay clear of other boats. If there is adequate space I can raise from the bow.

I can also drop in a crowded anchorage from the cockpit controlling the throttle and helm. I don't do this very much... as I don't like to anchor close to other boats. But what was a non close situation can become close when jerks come later and drop too close.

Cockpit windlass switch is used very rarely. But it has come in handy a number of times. It's a toggle switch...up one way, down the other. I use the AP and its dial to steer... not the helm itself.

With a second person there is no need for a cockpit switch.

Windlass circuit is OFF when underway.


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## Lanealoha (Mar 5, 2017)

Hey now! I don't know much about anything and certainly less than that when it comes to windlass's (?). I do know that my only experience with one was sailing from SD to La Paz and that vessel had a manual windlass. And I really liked it, it worked perfectly. I now have my own boat and am considering one (windlass) as well. I was always set on a manual but now I'm leaning toward an electric that has an emergency manual capability but am really trying to study up before a throw more $$ in the hole. Now, remember, I don't know jack shizzle so tell me, why do I see some windlass with capstan and with out them, so please enlighten me if you will....


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Lanealoha said:


> Hey now! I don't know much about anything and certainly less than that when it comes to windlass's (?). I do know that my only experience with one was sailing from SD to La Paz and that vessel had a manual windlass. And I really liked it, it worked perfectly. I now have my own boat and am considering one (windlass) as well. I was always set on a manual but now I'm leaning toward an electric that has an emergency manual capability but am really trying to study up before a throw more $$ in the hole. Now, remember, I don't know jack shizzle so tell me, why do I see some windlass with capstan and with out them, so please enlighten me if you will....


First and foremost... will you anchor regularly or pick up moorings and pay for slips?

If you do anchor frequently definitely consider a windlass.

And you might want all chain... which doesn't chafe and its weight assists in retrieval.

Many people pick up a mooring for a variety of reasons.

If your boat is not heavy and you can use lighter chain and a small windlass. it need not break the bank. Install will involve switches and wiring to a battery.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Very impressed by the Plath bronze manual windlasses. A piece of boat jewelry that should last forever.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

outbound said:


> Very impressed by the Plath bronze manual windlasses. A piece of boat jewelry that should last forever.


That's my baby. Original with my 43-year-old boat, and still going strong. Maybe this is why I prefer manual windlasses .

Lanealoha, perhaps it is I who is missing some terminology here, but to me a captstan is a vertically-oriented winch. Windlasses come in both vertical and horizontal models. Both come with benefits and liabilities. I think all manual windlasses are horizontal models, although some vertical electrics can be operated manually (at least in theory ).

Agree with Sanders about all-chain if you're going with a windlass. Just operates easier, regardless of it being electric or manual.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

SanderO said:


> First and foremost... will you anchor regularly or pick up moorings and pay for slips?
> 
> If you do anchor frequently definitely consider a windlass.
> 
> ...


We've discussed this before,

What sized boat is yours ( not in your profile) ? What is her displacement?

I've never chaffed my rode so it parted, so rule that out. Remember with a chain you need snubber and chaffing gear made with line type material. to also. That's a non starter of an argument.

All chain can be a big waste and seriously change the sailing dynamics of your boat with unnecessary added weight at the bow. On my boat an extra 300 ft of chain is 450 lbs more in the bow. That's a HUGE unbalanced weight on one end of the boat and would effect its sailing characteristics.

Your chain / rope rode should match the sailing / anchoring area you primarily sail in. If you aren't cruising in the Caribbean all chain is not a necessity. However if you get all chain then you might as well just spend the extra big bucks for an electric windlass.

We have 90 ft of chain, more than enough to aid the cantenary , but 300 ft of rope following giving enough to have a smooth anchoring motion. No extra effort or snubbers adding to the anchoring procedure. That's enough chain to prevent and chance of rock ledge sawing the rode on the bottom.

All electric windlasses have a manual override. Try to raise the anchor with the manual override It's pretty difficult. A manual windlass is set up for that and is much easier.

Save yourself some money ( cost of the windlass , cost of the extra chain, cost of the switches, battery set up, cost of snubbing capabilities) . Save you self 2-3k . Go manual. If electric don't by all chain unless your area requires it.

We have a capstan on our horizontal manual. Can be used just like any other winch. Sander referred to using it to hoist someone up the mast. I've only used ours once in a while.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

And it also has nothing to do with slips or moorings. We anchor 95% of the time.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

chef2sail said:


> We've discussed this before,
> 
> What sized boat is yours ( not in your profile) ? What is her displacement?
> 
> ...


Virtually all my anchoring is in water 20 feet or less. So I use 100' and it's 5:1. I carry 200' so 100' is unnecessary weight in the anchor locker. I carry a nylon 3 rode for a 2nd anchor as well. WEIGHT is a consideration. My boat displaces over 16,000 which I believe is 50% more than your speedy C&C... and cant take a bit more weight in the bow.

You can use a combi chain and rope...


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

SanderO said:


> Virtually all my anchoring is in water 20 feet or less. So I use 100' and it's 5:1. I carry 200' so 100' is unnecessary weight in the anchor locker. I carry a nylon 3 rode for a 2nd anchor as well. WEIGHT is a consideration. My boat displaces over 16,000 which I believe is 50% more than your speedy C&C... and cant take a bit more weight in the bow.
> 
> You can use a combi chain and rope...


Nope I'm 12,800 lbs on the last lift out on the travel lift. Not as light as you think. ????? just fast?????

The weight question was for the OP .


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## Lanealoha (Mar 5, 2017)

Nah, we already hammered all that out in a different thread. I'm set. I'm simply asking for brands of each, electric and manual, that have served people well. This thread has gone round about the benefits of each so I'm leaving that horse lye and simply wondering which models? And why the difference for with capstan or with out?


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Lanealoha said:


> Nah, we already hammered all that out in a different thread. I'm set. I'm simply asking for brands of each, electric and manual, that have served people well. This thread has gone round about the benefits of each so I'm leaving that horse lye and simply wondering which models? And why the difference for with capstan or with out?


I recommend Maxwell... VWC series I began with a 1100 and when I replaced after 15 years went for the smaller 1000 motor... everything else was the same. I have a spare 1100 motor.

You can see the slots at the base for the handle to use it manually. Slot at the top is to tighten/loosen rope gypsy.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

SanderO said:


> ...WEIGHT is a consideration. My boat displaces over 16,000 which I believe is 50% more than your speedy C&C... and cant take a bit more weight in the bow.





chef2sail said:


> Nope I'm 12,800 lbs on the last lift out on the travel lift. Not as light as you think. &#55357;&#56836;&#55357;&#56836;&#55357;&#56836;&#55357;&#56836;&#55357;&#56836; just fast&#55357;&#56833;&#55357;&#56833;&#55357;&#56833;&#55357;&#56833;&#55357;&#56833;


Not that this is a competition, but my boat weighs in at 30,000 pounds, so HA! :grin


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Manual
Ive used these and they are robust and easy to use and install, I would recommend. 
Lofrans- Royalhttps://www.p2marine.com/lofrans-royal-windlass-anodized-manual?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIjKn5hOq-6QIViJyzCh0R_QRYEAQYByABEgJ2JfD_BwE

Powered
Muir
Lofrans
Maxwell


All good many variations . Some have no free fall, some have no manual retrieval, different power - do not skimp here.


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## jeffhouseman (Apr 20, 2016)

I've got a Simpson Lawrence Horizon 600 electric windlass, controlled by foot switches. Though pretty old, it works well. Chain gypsy, clutch, and manual handle completes the package. I make sure to keep the breaker off to prevent my grandson from lowering the anchor while at the slip...


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Have the lewmar on current boat. It works fine and is geared for incredibly fast deployment and retrieval. Some sisterships have had failures. Been told bigger lewmars are more reliable than smaller ones but even at our size there been failures. Ours got taken apart last year. Was surprised by the amount of rust. Was able to repaint the whole thing and service it. Virtually all working parts sit below deck in the chain locker. Unless you leave the hatch open (doesn’t happen sailing) no ventilation. Chain does carry water/moisture in there as you retrieve. Even with drain holes just above the waterline it’s a humid environment. The lewmar is electric. The motor big enough it can’t be in a watertight enclosure as it would get too hot. So it does need attention and maintenance time to time.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

The maintenance on my Plath bronze has consisted of me tossing a bucket of water over it once or twice in 10 years to clean some of the exterior grime. Other than that I had to make a new handle for it when the old one broke due to metal fatigue. That's been it.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

outbound said:


> Have the lewmar on current boat. It works fine and is geared for incredibly fast deployment and retrieval. Some sisterships have had failures. Been told bigger lewmars are more reliable than smaller ones but even at our size there been failures. Ours got taken apart last year. Was surprised by the amount of rust. Was able to repaint the whole thing and service it. Virtually all working parts sit below deck in the chain locker. Unless you leave the hatch open (doesn't happen sailing) no ventilation. Chain does carry water/moisture in there as you retrieve. Even with drain holes just above the waterline it's a humid environment. The lewmar is electric. The motor big enough it can't be in a watertight enclosure as it would get too hot. So it does need attention and maintenance time to time.


Corrosion inside the locker did in my first VWC... it last 15 years though. I suppose a regular maintenance or covering it in thick grease might work... but I doubt it.


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## Lanealoha (Mar 5, 2017)

Now we're getting somewhere. Thanks for the info. Anecdotal evidence helps. I like the looks of the lofrans royal manual windlass, also like the maxwell rc 88 due to its low deck profile, while I like the idea of electric recovery and the recovery speed, I really lean toward the simplicity of a manual system. Its a lot of money either way to be second guessing your purchase decision, be nice to get it right the first time.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Lanealoha said:


> Now we're getting somewhere. Thanks for the info. Anecdotal evidence helps. I like the looks of the lofrans royal manual windlass, also like the maxwell rc 88 due to its low deck profile, while I like the idea of electric recovery and the recovery speed, I really lean toward the simplicity of a manual system. Its a lot of money either way to be second guessing your purchase decision, be nice to get it right the first time.


I'm sure the Lofrans windlass is an excellent option, but I'd also encourage you to look in the used market if you're considering a manual windlass. The Seatiger 555 comes up fairly regularly, and I've also seen the occasional Plath bronze as well. Given that there's so little to go wrong with these windlasses, buying used is a pretty safe bet.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

MikeOReilly said:


> I'm sure the Lofrans windlass is an excellent option, but I'd also encourage you to look in the used market if you're considering a manual windlass. The Seatiger 555 comes up fairly regularly, and I've also seen the occasional Plath bronze as well. Given that there's so little to go wrong with these windlasses, buying used is a pretty safe bet.


I agree I like my manual.

A new manual has to be 1/2 the price of electric at least. A used one even less.

My Simpson Lawrence Hyspeed Manual is 36 years old. With the recondition 5 years ago works like new. In that time My friend SanderO has gone through 2 windlasses. That doesn't include the new motor. Cost is important.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

The more deck space a unit takes up and the higher it is the more it’s a hazard when you’re up on the foredeck forced to mess around with something. It’s so nice to be able to sit while on a very short tether while trying to fix an over wrap in a furler or resecure an anchor lashed on for passage. This varies hugely on each boat. How to place it to get good support (have seen them ripped out of the deck), good chain fall and good ergonomics for deck work. That’s one of the good features of the lewmar. The footprint and profile are very small . You can sit on it without discomfort. There are no toe stubbing edges. Feed to the locker is very short and directly down. Think these are concerns for any windlass electric or manual.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

chef2sail said:


> I agree I like my manual.
> 
> A new manual has to be 1/2 the price of electric at least. A used one even less.
> 
> My Simpson Lawrence Hyspeed Manual is 36 years old. With the recondition 5 years ago works like new. In that time My friend SanderO has gone through 2 windlasses. That doesn't include the new motor. Cost is important.


I've gone thru one and am on the 2nd... and I picked up a spare motor for a song... Windlasses are spendy... I think my cost would average out at around $100 / yr.


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## oldfurr (Dec 25, 2012)

So... referencing O.P.s question, I realize it's a more European area type item while this board tends to be more N.A. focused but does anyone here have any experience of the Giglio or it's maker Italwinch? Even reputation - hearsay - experiences with the mail order sellers or ? The price and availability looks somewhat interesting to me even if the latest antenna I ordered from Latvia took more than twice the estimated delivery time.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

oldfurr said:


> So... referencing O.P.s question, I realize it's a more European area type item while this board tends to be more N.A. focused but does anyone here have any experience of the Giglio or it's maker Italwinch? Even reputation - hearsay - experiences with the mail order sellers or ? The price and availability looks somewhat interesting to me even if the latest antenna I ordered from Latvia took more than twice the estimated delivery time.


I have a friend with a beautiful newer 36 Sunbeam made in Austria.
It has and Italwinch on its bow. I have operated it at the dock once. It was shiny and new and worked effortlessly.

I don't know anything about their quality control.


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## Lanealoha (Mar 5, 2017)

> So... referencing O.P.s question, I realize it's a more European area type item while this board tends to be more N.A. focused but does anyone here have any experience of the Giglio or it's maker Italwinch? Even reputation - hearsay - experiences with the mail order sellers or ? The price and availability looks somewhat interesting to me even if the latest antenna I ordered from Latvia took more than twice the estimated delivery time.


I've seen that one as well. I researched the company best I could, found that winch on their site, sent them an email to ask about chain/ rope compatability and the response: "we don't have a manual windlass in our catalog", so it seems like a crap shoot to me...


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## ogada (May 12, 2020)

The two options I have been looking at are....

Lofrans Royal Manual Windlass
and
The "Giglio" by the Italian outfit Italwinch.


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