# Backstay Insulator for SSB



## trodzen (Jan 7, 2003)

I installed a SSB a while back. I did it when I was outside of the USA so I did a semi-temporary wire up the backstay. Now it's time to remove that and install a proper antenna using the backstay and insulators.

My question is with the insulators. I found sailnet offers the Sta-Lok version

http://shop.sailnet.com/product_info.php/products_id/32703
http://www.stalok.com/online_shop_items.asp?IC_ID=44&sec_id=1575

And Defender offers a version from Hyan called a HI-Mod Insulator

http://www.hayn.com/marine/rigging/himod.html

Anyone, please comment on the quality of either or experiences installing an insulator with the stick already up.


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## btrayfors (Aug 25, 2006)

*Why Break Up a Perfectly Good Backstay?*

Why break up a perfectly good backstay with 4 more possible points of failure?

How about a semi-permanent alternate backstay, made of s/s lifeline, hauled up with a spare halyard, and affixed at the lower end to the pushpit on one side of the boat?

I've used one on my 42' sloop for 17 years now; no problems. Works every bit as well as an insulated backstay, and without the expense or compromising the integrity of your backstay.

Bill
WA6CCA
S/V Born Free


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## trodzen (Jan 7, 2003)

my semi-permanent solution was similiar. I attached a covered wire to the backstay with zip-ties. I used it to talk with Herb in Canada while off the coast of D.R. I understand the issue with another point of failure but still prefer to go the route of an insulated backstay.

thanks
Todd
s/v Hestia


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## catamount (Sep 8, 2002)

trodzen said:


> Hyan called a HI-Mod Insulator
> 
> http://www.hayn.com/marine/rigging/himod.html


The Hi-Mod insulator is supposedly the only one that is fail-safe. I've not used their backstay insulator, but have used other of their fittings. I would go with them over StaLoks or Norsemen...

Tim


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## Bill Mc (Apr 10, 2006)

*SSB antenna*

My Personal preferance would be to not modify my backstay at all, but to install a split lead antenna that is removable should I have to replace the backstay or step the mast. The Product that I prefer can be found at 
http://gamelectronicsinc.com/ssb.htm
This antenna coupled to an antenna tuner should do you proud.

Merry Christmas,

Bill KI4GSV


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I would use insulated standoffs, and install the SSB antenna in parallel with the exisiting backstay. This is probably a better way to do it as it doesn't require modifying the rigging.


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## Bill Mc (Apr 10, 2006)

*http://gamelectronicsinc.com/ssb.htm*

Sorry to all, I didn't check the link. the Sailnet forum took over the hyperlink by converting the keyword ssb to dirrect you to there store hence the confusion. I hope this is helpful to you all now

http://gamelectronicsinc.com/ssb.htm

Bill


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## capecodphyllis (Dec 7, 2006)

Bill Mc said:


> My Personal preferance would be to not modify my backstay at all, but to install a split lead antenna that is removable should I have to replace the backstay or step the mast. The Product that I prefer can be found at
> http://gamelectronicsinc.com/ssb.htm
> This antenna coupled to an antenna tuner should do you proud.


Any thoughts on a reliable tuner? My Palstar tuner works great but keeps breaking down and has become rusty. I would like a tuner that can be used with any radio.


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## btrayfors (Aug 25, 2006)

SG-230 by SGC Electronics. http://www.sgcworld.com/

Been the standard for past 15-plus years by which all other tuners are compared.

Works with any radio.

Pricey, but well worth it.

Bill


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## capecodphyllis (Dec 7, 2006)

catamount said:


> I would go with them (Hayn) over StaLoks or Norsemen...
> 
> Tim


May I ask why you believe Hayn mechanical fittings to be superior to Stalock and Norseman?

Just curious.


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## catamount (Sep 8, 2002)

capecodphyllis said:


> May I ask why you believe Hayn mechanical fittings to be superior to Stalock and Norseman?


The Hi-Mod fittings are a "second generation" design that improves upon the Stalok and Norseman designs in a number of ways. See http://www.hayn.com/marine/rigging/himod.html

And in terms of the backstay insulator, the Hayn Hi-Mod has a built in "fail safe" (see http://www.hayn.com/marine/rigging/himod2.html), which the others supposedly don't have.


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## capecodphyllis (Dec 7, 2006)

*Navtec solid rod backstay, insulated*

Would reception be altered by the use of a solid rod, insulated backstay, as opposed to 1x19 wire?


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## Bill Mc (Apr 10, 2006)

btrayfors, Bill

That really looks like one heck of a tuner. I'm going to shop around and find a local dealer for that tuner. Most tuners want low power till they come on line but that is not a requirement for this one. I hope I can get one at a resonable price.

Fair Winds,

Bill


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## btrayfors (Aug 25, 2006)

*SG230 Tuner*

Bill Mc,

Yep, it's a dandy. I've got two. One was installed on my boat 17 years ago, and is still working perfectly. But, last year SGC was running a special price on these, and I bought a new one as backup against the time when my other one quits. Or, I may just install the new one next spring, and use the old one around the house. They're truly great tuners, and seem to last forever.

You can occasionally find them on eBay in good condition, and it wouldn't hurt to query SGC on whether they plan to run another special. The last one was run exactly a year ago, and dealers were selling the unit for $425. I got mine at HRO.

But, if you gotta have one now, guess you've gotta bite the bullet.

Good luck,

Bill

Disclaimer: I've got no relation to SGC at all. And, I can't endorse all their products. They've had some winners and some losers over the years. But the SG230 is definitely a winner!

B.


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## btrayfors (Aug 25, 2006)

Capecodphyllis,

No, Navtec rod rigging would work just fine. However, and I apologize for repeating this thought, why would anyone want to break up a perfectly good backstay, installing at least four-to-six more potential points of failure, when there are other perfectly good alternatives? 

Bill


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## Bill Mc (Apr 10, 2006)

That is a resonable price to me. I was going to purchase an Icom AT-104 but now I will hold off till I can further investigate this.

Thanx,

Bill


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

What are the recommendations for boats without backstays, such as Hunters?


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Kava...you could do like Bill suggests or get a long ugly whip antenna to mount on your stern.


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## cfreeman (Feb 1, 2001)

I've had Staloks up for about six years now with no problems, and they lived through the eye of Ivan, so I'm sold.

IMHO the idea of a parallel antenna on standoffs is a very bad idea; presuming your backstay is grounded you've created a very different animal than a proper long-wire antenna.

OBTW I have an ICOM AT-130 tuner on mine and it works extremely well, but I have an ICOM SSB too.


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## ebs001 (May 8, 2006)

For my ssb I use a long insulted wire from the top of the mast to a point on the aft pulpit, tied to the top of the mast and secured to the pulpit with a shock cord. As Trodzen stated it works fine and this would work for a Hunter.


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## k1vsk (Jul 16, 2001)

*Huh?*



jones2r said:


> Do any antenna experts have theories or knowledge of the effects of a grounded receiver in the proximity of an antenna on the signal strength available? Would it reduce the strength signal according to proximity? No effect?


I think what you are asking is what effect the radio DC ground has on the antenna counterpoise??? If tha't is what you mean, there is no negative effect. In fact, the radio should be electrically grounded seperate from the antenna RF ground.

One comment on tuners unrelated to the previous question but someone on this thread mentioned SGC brand. Before you go out and buy an SGC, do some research on quality and service life - you will find, as I have, that they are prone to failure for some design reasons. That's not to say some people who have them won't swear they are great but when I used to service marine radios, I found them to typically be more often than not the worst designed and built units and often the biggest source of income when I got paid to do electronics repair service.


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## gjurrens (Feb 7, 2010)

Gang, this is my first post, so if I screw it up, apologies in advance. 
I am considering cutting into not just one perfectly good backstay, but into TWO (on the same boat)... 
I have two full length 5/16" 1x19 backstays approx 49 feet long that share the load of supporting my mast. The bottom end of each is electrically isolated from DC ground and from my bonding system. My thought is to install one insulator (I'm favoring the Hi-Mod at this point) four feet or so from the masthead (which IS grounded) and connect my antenna feedline below deck to the chain plate securing the backstay to the hull, and thus avoid an additional thru-deck fitting for GTO-15. This will yield a 44 foot backstay radiator (plus a few feet to connect to the tuner (AH-4 connected to my Icom ham radio (either a 746 or 706MkIIG). I'll insulate the lower six feet or so of that backstay with PVC to protect against RF burns. 
Given those decisions are made, here is my question. Is there any advantage to insulating BOTH backstays and connecting them (electrically) just below the insulators near the masthead? This would give me the option of an effective 88 foot end-fed radiator in an inverted V configuration (the bottom of the backstays are about ten feet apart, yielding an acute angle between the two). 
Anyone have any experience doing this? Thanks in advance.


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## btrayfors (Aug 25, 2006)

Right the first time, i.e., ONE insulator near the top of ONE backstay. Tying in the other wouldn't be a good idea, IMHO; the acute angle would tend to cancel the radiated signal in places (just as it does with an inverted-V antenna with the angle too small). And, anyway, 40-ish feet is just about the right length for all-band operation. Longer favors the low bands, shorter the higher bands.

I've done a number of installs with one of two split backstays rigged just as you plan. Worked like gangbusters!

What are you planning to do for an RF ground?

73,

Bill
WA6CCA


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## gjurrens (Feb 7, 2010)

*One Backstay, Not Two?*

Thanks for the definitive answer, Bill. One backstay it is.

For an RF ground, I've been reading other posts on this forum. I have two large sintered bronze blocks on the outside of my hull (one small 12" and one large 18" DynaPlate), so my thought was to take advantage of them since they're there (I inherited one from the previous owner of this boat, and installed one myself before reading this forum!) and create an RF ground between the tuner (AH-4 coupler ground post), not the transceiver, and both blocks with approx 20 feet of 3" copper foil (maybe 10 mil thick) connection, and also take advantage of a KISS-type counterpoise with 1/4 wavelength 'radials' for each band (I have a pile of 450 ohm ladder line lying around), thinking I'd tune their length for the lower end of each ham band (I'm a CW guy first) and maybe also another set tuned for the middle of each of the marine SSB bands (for when I can afford to spring for an 802), and string 'em all longitudinally through the bilge, all tied to the AH-4 ground nut. My thought (altho not strictly wed to it) was to couple both directly to the salt water via the thru-hull bolts on the (RF) grounding shoes as well as capacitatively through the hull with the twin lead counterpoise wires.

Or would I be better served by connecting the grounding shoes (since I have them) to my DC ground bonding system for a low impedance path for lightening to pass to ground? I've heard that may not be the way to go as the bronze would certainly pass the juice, but might build up sufficient heat to melt 'em right outa the hull and sink the boat!

I am, however, reluctant to tie my thru-hulls, engine, etc into an RF ground plane as I'm in about the most corrosive salt water possible in the continental U.S. (I burn zincs at the rate of a set every 5 months or less, even with a galvanic isolator, etc.),  and wish to keep that stuff tied to my DC ground bonding system which is tied to the zincs.

Does this line of thinking make sense in the context of a marine HF install (this will be my first)? What say you? Am I overthinking this? (I'm a retired engineer and researcher) 

Thanks! 73 Gene K0GKJ


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## btrayfors (Aug 25, 2006)

Gene,

The grounding shoes you already have installed will work OK, by themselves. Of course you could add radials, but they probably won't add much. You certainly do NOT need a separate radial for the middle vs. the lower end of the band. Approximate lengths are good enough. 

For foil, I use 16oz soft copper. You can buy it at any roofing supply store. Heavy, easy to work with, and not too costly. It will way outlast the usual thin stuff found in radio suppliers.

I'd just connect the ground plates first, and see how that works. Tune all the bands. If you have any difficulty tuning a particular band, just add a 1/4 wave radial for that band.

And, CW Guy, be sure to check into the CW portion of the WaterWay Net every AM....0700 Eastern time on 7050.

73,

Bill
WA6CCA


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## gjurrens (Feb 7, 2010)

*It's a Plan...*

OK, Bill. Really appreciate the clear and practical advice. One insulator, 22 mil soft roofing copper and grounding shoes it is! Will look for some 2-4" copper and hold the radials idea in reserve...

Waterway Net does CW? Outstanding. Can't wait, as condo isn't at all antenna-friendly, so migrating the QTH to das bot (hi-hi).

One last question: is it practical to use the ham radio for SSB use (given adequate memories to store freqs, modes and offsets for some number of favorite channels)? Actually, I'm looking for justification to the XYL to invest in an SSB rig (ideally, a used 802 in good condition), but not sure I have sufficient 'ammo' (or cash) yet ;-)

73 Gene K0GKJ dit dit


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## btrayfors (Aug 25, 2006)

Gene,

Most ham radios can be made to work on the marine bands. However, as you no doubt know, this is illegal -- except in an extreme emergency. Lots of folks do it though, and take the risk.

If you don't need HF email -- or want to do it with your ham radio -- you can find used marine SSB's around for relatively little money....much less than a used 802 in good condition (if you could find one...very rare). Some of these older marine rigs are terrific....I use two of them every day on the nets (a Kenwood TKM-707 and an Icom M700). Also have a Yaesu System 600 on my boat. It matches my Yaesu FT-900CAT ham rig!

Happen to have a few older rigs for sale at the moment. If you're interested, PM me.

Good luck on the install!

Bill


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## gjurrens (Feb 7, 2010)

*cheaper ssb radio alternative?*

Hi Bill. You suggested I PM you about some marine ssb radios you had for sale that cost considerably less than an 802, but am not allowed (yet). Maybe you could PM your response to me... I imagine I can receive one.
You mentioned an Icom 700. Since I'm kind of an Icom guy, how much do you need for that rig? Is that different than the 700pro? Imagine it is. And how would that compare to the Kenwood (price, capability, signal quality)? If I decided to upgrade to an 802 later, are these units pretty readily marketable? Thanks for your thoughts, Bill.

73
Gene 
K0GKJ


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## btrayfors (Aug 25, 2006)

Gene,

Email me direct: bill at wdsg dot com

Bill


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## GreatWhite (Jan 30, 2007)

I am looking at back stay insulators right now and just about to order

...I thought I would need 2 insulators- one near the top and one lower but high enough to get the radiating element of the deck??? (I have kids and don't want to burn them or my wife for that matter)

could I get away with one insulator? 

The reason I am considering backstay insulators is I am re-rigging anyways.

The rigger said that 33 feet is what he heard is a good length

I have an Icom 735 and and Icom AT tuner btw

Cheers


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## gjurrens (Feb 7, 2010)

*one backstay insulator...*

Hi, Greatwhite.

There are those who are much more experienced than me, but to share my own thoughts on this very topic, since I just spent some time researching this exact issue myself  , here are my observations and conclusions:

1. They say any HF 'antenna' over 23 feet is good enough. As a ham operator, I know that longer is better, especially on the lower frequencies, and taking it all the way to the deck not only gives me a longer radiator, it gets the bottom end of it closer to my great salt water counterpoise,

2. Backstay insulators are expensive, and if I am able to get away with only one, that would be my preference. Also, one insulator instead of two yields fewer added points of potential failure (two instead of four), although history says that's probably not a huge issue for most of us.

3. If I could use the backstay all the way down to the deck for my antenna (after isolating it from the rest of the rig with one insulator aloft), I could make my connection to the below-decks tuner, well, below decks, which would offer superior weatherproofing for a signal-critical connection, and much preferrred to gooping over an exterior connection, and then having to space the feedline from the non-insulated (lower) portion of the backstay below a second insulator, and I'm opting to just avoid all that complexity. Worst case, I can always add a second insulator and feedline spacers and GTO-15-to-backstay connection later (no harm, no foul),

4. I would obviously also want to protect my family, friends and crew from RF burns should they touch the backstay while I'm transmitting), so my plan (haven't implemented yet, but others say it will work) is to place a length of PVC pipe over the backstay from the deck up about seven feet, and keep it from rattling around with a one foot length of pipe insulation stuffed into each end, topped with some sealing foam (e.g., "Great Stuff") at each end - this can easily be trimmed and sealed with a thin layer of silicone, RTV, shrink-tubing, etc.)

5. Even though on my boat, I have twin backstays, my wife was still concerned about taking a hacksaw to one of them, so I went with one Hayns Marine Hi-Mod insulator ($250 for 5/16" wire) from Sailboat hardware, rigging and standing rigging from Rigging Only. Idiot-proof installation, they say, but its quite large in diameter, yet very handsome (I think). I suspect the diameter in the middle (approx 2.5 inches on this one) is because its the only one on the market to offer a "failsafe" ball and socket affair, should the insulator itself fail. Result? Loose(r) backstay, but still intact.

So how did I know if just one insulator will serve? I tested for continuity between my backstay chainplate below decks with my ship's bonding system (DC ground). There WAS continuity until I temporarily disconnected the backstay from that chain plate (the mast is obviously grounded). Then there wasn't. If there was, and it was just a bonding wire to the chainplate, that could be disconnected and tested again. If on your boat the chain plate is grounded, and the mechanism for doing so is buried in the construction (i.e., underneath fiberglass), then you're stuck with two insulators...

Just to reiterate, I haven't installed this yet, but that's my research, for what it's worth.

BTW, I'm using GTO-15 high voltage wire (google "tesla" - same as connecting neon light to transformer - cheaper) from chain plate to my lazarette-mounted Icom AH-4 tuner (meant more for ham radio). The tuner ground lug will tie to my RF ground (bronze blocks on outside of hull) with 3" wide 16 ounce (22 mil thick) copper strap that I found (new) at a roofing supply house (a LOT cheaper for the same stuff from a radio supplier). The 22 mil thick stuff looks to be more awkward to work with, but won't dissolve in your bilge like the thinner stuff might. From the AH-4, I'll have an RG-213/U run of coax to my Icom 746 ham radio. Can't wait! Anchoring away from the marina (and shoreside commitments) for several days, and hope to make serious progress on this installation then.

Good luck in your planning, Greatwhite !

Gene


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## patrickbryant (Nov 28, 2010)

gjurrens said:


> Hi, Greatwhite.
> 
> There are those who are much more experienced than me, but to share my own thoughts on this very topic, since I just spent some time researching this exact issue myself  , here are my observations and conclusions:
> 
> ...


Gene,

I have used the same design you describe with very good results on a 32 foot sloop.

For my 26 foot Pearson Ariel, I lacked sufficient area to get good capacitive coupling to seawater. On that boat, I used a "delta loop" design: the entire rig is the antenna, and the loop consists of a loop formed by the path of forestay, to masthead, to backstay, to a copper strap running from the backstay base through the bilge to the forestay. Placement of the antenna tuner at either the forestay or backstay chainplate is appropriate. I choose the forestay because there is a convenient weather-protected compartment there that once contained the fresh water tank. In areas that are prone to lightning (which is rarely seen here in the San Francisco Bay area), I recommend a submerged ground plate at the stern that also connects to the backstay chainplate.

The delta loop does not perform as well as a backstay antenna does on a larger boat with sufficient hull area for a good counterpoise (or a boat with a metal hull). But if you have a smaller fiberglass boat, it will perform as well or better than a backstay antenna on the same small boat, and it has the advantage of not requiring any modifications to the rigging, along with providing moderate lightning protection when a ground plate is connected to the backstay chainplate.

RF burns are still a hazard, and I just follow the precaution of not transmitting whenever someone could be touching the backstay.

It's important to verify with an ohmmeter that the toe rail doesn't effectively shortcircuit the backstay to the forestay.

-Patrick


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## Antilag (Oct 3, 2011)

*Re: one backstay insulator...*

Hi gjurrens,

Sorry for thread revival. Did you ever do the installation as you described?

Michel



gjurrens said:


> Hi, Greatwhite.
> 
> There are those who are much more experienced than me, but to share my own thoughts on this very topic, since I just spent some time researching this exact issue myself  , here are my observations and conclusions:
> 
> ...


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## patrickbryant (Nov 28, 2010)

All great ideas. But I have one caution:

"... keep it from rattling around with a one foot length of pipe insulation stuffed into each end, topped with some sealing foam (e.g., "Great Stuff") at each end - this can easily be trimmed and sealed with a thin layer of silicone, RTV, shrink-tubing, etc.)"

Depriving stainless steel from free exposure to oxygen may accelerate corrosion. 

RF will couple to anything conductive nearby: your boom, boom topping lift (if it's wire), etc.; so people should still be cautioned not to touch the boom, stays, or mast when you're transmitting. I have a wooden tiller, but if you have a wheel, it might be "hot" too. Whether an object is hot or not hot will vary with frequency - depending on whether or not the objects resonate or carry standing waves at any given frequency. It's safest to just treat anything that's long and conductive as being hot. RF burns are nasty - I've gotten a few from boats with insulated backstay antennas.

73, N8QH


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## Antilag (Oct 3, 2011)

Indeed, I would definatly use something very loose to cover the lower backstay.


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## aloof (Dec 21, 2014)

Replace the obsolete steel backstay with one of Vectran. Simply run a cheap piece of insulated wire up inside the Vectran. Leave it a meter or two short of the masthead. Connect with GTO at the bottom. Simple, safe, effective.


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## patrickbryant (Nov 28, 2010)

btrayfors said:


> SG-230 by SGC Electronics. http://www.sgcworld.com/
> 
> Been the standard for past 15-plus years by which all other tuners are compared.
> 
> ...


I've been using the SG-230 for years on my boat, with a delta loop antenna fed at the forestay (the entire rig is the antenna - no insulators). You can see a description here: Delta Loop HF Antenna for the Ariel

That tuner will tune a paperclip! It's great.


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