# Reality at Sea - For Cruisers, Singlehanders, and Normal People.



## smackdaddy

I put this post in the BFS thread, then decided it deserves its own thread. I think it's pretty damn interesting - and will definitely spark some thought...if not wild-eyed, spittle-flying discussion. Great stuff.

Fire in the hole!

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Below is a series of 6 videos that, I think, show the very stark reality of cruising (especially singlehanding). It's sure to raise some hackles and fire off some vitriol (which is always fun) - but it's one of the most informative, honest, unadulterated, unglamorous, and real accounts I've seen.

Many of you will be seriously rolling your eyes and getting annoyed in the first three minutes of the first vid...but you should really just buck up and watch all 6 - then feel free to erupt...or sympathize...or whatever...

DrakeParagon and the "NYC to Bermuda Nightmare" in his Westsail 42:































This series kind of covers the gamut of issues faced and lessons-learned. And despite it all, he made it.

Thoughts?


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## LandLocked66c

Cool, the 6th one finally works! I couldn't view it for the longest time... Crazy time for Drake. I'm curious to see the damage done.


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## LandLocked66c

Here's Cha Cha's story! The boat looks ROUGH!

WOUNDED BOATS (AND FOLK) IN BERMUDA



















Titan 14


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## curtcee

I've only made it through part 2 but it appears he may have missed that thing some sailors refer to as a "shakedown" cruise.

Curtis


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## LandLocked66c

curtcee said:


> I've only made it through part 2 but it appears he may have missed that thing some sailors refer to as a "shakedown" cruise.
> 
> Curtis


Read the link above, it appears the guy in the disabled boat doesn't care... If I was his crew I'd kick him in the nuts for sure!


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## killarney_sailor

*Very interesting read*

A very interesting read, thanks for posting. I think this should be required reading for all those people who post here saying that they have been sailing twice and have a $10,000 budget to buy a bluewater boat to sail around the world.

I have a great deal of sympathy for Drake. I think he found himself doing something that was more than he was prepared for. He did his best with the tow of the other boat - so good on him.

Some specific comments based on my experience and his:

Fatigue is a terrible thing and will reduce your mental and physical capabilities enormously. At one point I was wondering why he was making a video telling us he was exhausted. He should have been sleeping.
He seemed inexperienced for the voyage he took. For example, not really having figured out when to reef (and importantly, when to shake out the reef and make some miles.) Also, did not occur to him that you will be deploying the drogue when the conditions really suck - that is what it is for.
He did not seem to have tested the boat and his knowledge base enough. For example, vane steering requires practice and possible adjustments to the installation based on trials - you don't do this on the way. Also no ditch bag and little things like no stoppers in the jib sheets. Can't imagine why the compression strut for the mast would bend - that is certainly scary.
 He had too much sail up the first time it got nasty and then over-reacted by keeping a double reef in when it appeared that the winds might have been 10 knots. He made a comment about not wanting to reef at night, you have got to be able to do it, no matter the conditions - is he always going to have a single-reef, what happens when he needs the second one?
He seemed too willing to fire up the engine. It is a sailboat and you only use the engine for specific purposes, not general progress on an offshore passage.
I got the impression that a lot of things he knew came from books and not from experience. I think having read too many of the standard books and thinking that gives you experience is dangerous.
 NYC-Bermuda is not a casual undertaking, especially single-handed and especially since it seemed he lacked experience. Get a crew to Bermuda. If he wants the single-handed experience the next stage from Bermuda to the Virgins (I am assuming that is the target) would make much more sense - better weather, much less traffic.


I don't want to be too critical of the guy, we have all been there and realize later that we could do better - hell, I am still there, always learning. He deserves the credit for doing it, while many people only talk about it. I hope his cruising experiences have continued and been pleasant.

I have major problems with the owner of the other boat, Cha-Cha. A boat that size floats on a small (or larger) sea of money. If he wants to go out in such an ill-prepared boat that is his business. He should not be taking along crew who might not know enough about cruising to realize that she is seriously taking her life in her hands.


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## elvishessler

That is great. Thanks for sharing. Real world. Do you think Drake is still sailing?


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## smackdaddy

elvishessler said:


> That is great. Thanks for sharing. Real world. Do you think Drake is still sailing?


As far as I've seen - yes. He does a lot of big sailing in a lot of nice places on a lot of nice boats. It's not like he's a complete newb.

Check out his YouTube channel.

(PS - I like the part where he admits his real fear in some pretty scary conditions, and I like that you can see him really mulling over what it will mean to answer that Pan-Pan. It's really great stuff. From a joyous dinner on night one to 6 more days of exhausted hell. His boat sure did right by him.)


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## therapy23

I made it through it all.

He apparently has sailed that boat to the Caribbean and as far south as Venezuela and as far north as Nova Scotia.

With all those miles he has trouble reefing in 35 MPH winds?

And he hove to and then put out a parachute off the stern?! 

Maybe I misunderstood.

Glad he is OK though.


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## jimrafford

That should be a video collection of what happens when you don't plan well and caca happens. He may have sailed a lot of miles but OMG. The list of what goes wrong is long.
Jim


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## travlin-easy

Watched them all, and it's obvious what sleep deprivation can do to someone's senses.

Thanks for posting,

Gary


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## itsaboat

Wow. Just finished all of the vids. Great post. I agree with killarney that all "I want to sell everything and move my wife and seven children aboard a sailboat" should be directed to this post.


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## Minnewaska

Conditions were as to be expected. Preparation was not. The most distracting for me was the blue masking tape around the companionway!! 

Paragon may not have been the best ship at sea, but clearly wasn't the worst and seems to have made it. No vid of landfall?

Edit: I should have given kudos to Drake for coming to Cha Cha's rescue. Good on ya!!


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## Dean101

Wow! That was one hell of a trip! I think the biggest thing I took from his experience was just how fatigued he was near the end. I could be wrong but as he was towing Cha Cha, the vessel was veering off to Paragon's port side. Upon the arrival of Titan 14, Drake reported that as he was towing Cha Cha the boat was veering to starboard. If I got that wrong, I apologize. If I'm right, poor Drake was so exhausted that not only did he NOT catch that but he looked as though he could have fallen asleep where he sat.

So, now I'm curious as to what techniques single-handers use for watchkeeping and sleep management?

I was surprised that he didn't have a ditch bag, although I assume he made one in a hurry, and seemed short on spares. His opening video, judging from his enthusiasm, the weather forecasts, and his emphasis on the chartplotter led me to think he had planned his trip carefully. Unfortunately, everything that actually happenned on his trip was apparently not planned for. 

These videos really validate the my belief that if you forgot it, Mother Nature will remind you of it. It was a shame that Drakes boat got damaged while he was trying to help out Cha Cha. A+ for effort in my book.

On a side note, the head injury during the storm that the skipper of Cha Cha suffered highlites the wisdom of wearing a helmet during heavy weather regardless of how uncool one may look. This was discussed in another thread but I wanted to point that out since that was my first thought when I heard the head injury report over the VHF.


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## UncleJim

First impressions of Drake...while he assumed that he was prepared for what he was undertaking, he was not prepared for things that could go wrong. Installing your own equipment is great and gives you a good deal of knowledge on how things operate. But for goodness sake test it out before you need to depend on it. I'm a noobe and even I know that the waters off of NY are major shipping lanes, plan on being well past them before you're too sleep deprived to put in a reef or run out a droge.

As for Cha-Cha... to be given a boat of that size and value and then to put it before the well being of your life and crew, well I just hope I never hear a pan-pan from him. 

I hope one day to be in a position to make a trip like that. But before I do I will have practiced with all of the equipment I'll need. I'll have been out with someone who knows what to do and when it needs to be done, I'll start with small steps and small sails, LFS as apposed to BFS and work my way up.


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## afrinus

I'm very new at this and one thing is for sure - not in the too distant future, I too want to get a boat out there and do what Drake does.

The sailing part that is - not the "How the hell not to properly prepare yourself for the sailing" part.

This is a very good lesson in what not to do.

I must say though - initially it was pretty annoying watching this guy, but later on, I kind of got a bit of respect for him.

Although he was dead tired, he still did the right thing - good for him.


Ok, now the most important part - Who's with me getting the donations going to help Cha-Cha. You know, struggling sailor - down on his luck - that kind of thing........or do we do that kind of thing only after a hurricane - ChrisnKate ??? 


Sorry - I couldn't help myself....


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## JonEisberg

killarney_sailor said:


> I have major problems with the owner of the other boat, Cha-Cha. A boat that size floats on a small (or larger) sea of money. If he wants to go out in such an ill-prepared boat that is his business. He should not be taking along crew who might not know enough about cruising to realize that she is seriously taking her life in her hands.


Yup, that's the major lesson to be taken away from this one, alright... You're far better off all alone out there, than having to share the ocean with a clown like CHA-CHA's skipper, and the possibility of getting caught up in another's incompetence...(grin)

too bad this goes down as another example of no good deed going unpunished... Two months ago, I departed Hampton at approximately the same time as the Caribbean 1500 fleet, and the possibility of getting drawn into another boat's drama was most definitely on my mind, and was a major factor in sailing due East out of the Chesapeake initially, in an effort to separate ourselves from the herd as they headed down the beach to cross the Stream closer to Hatteras...

No emergency tiller of some sort on a boat with hydraulic steering? Wow... And, he shows up in Bermuda on a POS 52-footer with no engine, no steering, blown-out sails, and claiming "he has no money for anything"??? Bermuda is a wonderfully hospitable place, but I doubt you'd get very far arriving in such a boat, then claiming to be destitute... (grin)


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## LandLocked66c

Drake posts here... He also posted on Sailboat owners that after he made it to bermuda he was forced to limp back to the US for repairs. His bowsprit and other stuff up front was all FUBARED... But he met a lady and will be taking her along, so good things did happen in the end...

Here's a thread he started: http://www.sailnet.com/forums/general-discussion-sailing-related/81539-westsail-42-fiona-video-tour-sailing-adventure.html


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## chrisncate

LandLocked66c said:


> Drake posts here... He also posted on Sailboat owners that after he made it to bermuda he was forced to limp back to the US for repairs. His bowsprit and other stuff up front was all FUBARED... But he met a lady and will be taking her along, so good things did happen in the end...


He seemed like a pretty cool personality in the vids, hopefully he reads this and chimes in. Gotta love the Drake?


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## smackdaddy

LandLocked66c said:


> Drake posts here... He also posted on Sailboat owners that after he made it to bermuda he was forced to limp back to the US for repairs. His bowsprit and other stuff up front was all FUBARED... But he met a lady and will be taking her along, so good things did happen in the end...


I hope he comes on at some point. I'll definitely give him a fist bump. These are great videos.

As for the exhaustion - the most I've done straight thus far is 3 days - but with a crew of 6 (all hand-steering though in a race, no AP). His puffy-eyed zombie look in video six is definitely familiar. I really didn't find it hard to keep going while we were doing it - but I was completely spent afterward. It surprised me.

I can't imagine 7 days _singlehanding_ in stuff like that. Of course he made some less than perfect decisions. Scary stuff. But he made good ones when they counted.


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## neverknow

Ok I watched them all and I'm thinking (keep in mind I'm a non sailor for now anyway)

Ever heard of a ditch bag, Sat phone, SSB, shake down cruise. Neither boat sounded prepared for a trip like this. Makes me think that after yrs of island hopping and coastal cruising they thought why not head out to Bermuda???


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## neverknow

I have a question for everyone here.

At what point does a skipper decide to "NOT" tow another vessel? In this case we had a 42 ft boat with a solo sailor being asked to tow a 52 ft boat that is completely disabled.

Would Drake been within his rights to refuse to tow them? I would have probably been more than worried. Another concern at least for us parodied ppl is what if the crew 3 strong took your boat over. Pirates?? You are in the middle of the ocean. They could throw your ass over board and claim they found your boat drifting.

If I were Drake once the first freighter showed up I would have stop the tow and told them to take a ride on the big ship. Putting my ship at risk to save CHA CHA's POS would not happen. Saving the crew is one thing saving his boat is another. Like one poster already said CHA CHA was broken and broke. What did he plan to do to fix his boat anyway with no money.


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## neverknow

chrisncate said:


> I couldn't imagine he was under obligation to tow them (specially after the freighter showed up and they refused to leave their vessel), but I don't know.
> 
> Jackdale would know I bet. Jack?


I guess I'm thinking Drake has already had some problems of his own. He was only a broken engine before he would find himself screwed too.


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## jackdale

chrisncate said:


> I couldn't imagine he was under obligation to tow them (specially after the freighter showed up and they refused to leave their vessel), but I don't know.
> 
> Jackdale would know I bet. Jack?


The requirement is to render assistance, without endangering your own crew / vessel. He had enough fuel to tow I presume.

I have not yet watched all of the videos - tomorrow's to do list.

Disclaimer - I am not a lawyer; I just get all legalistic sometimes.


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## neverknow

I have towed boats on Lake Michigan a few times. But they were only a few miles from port and the conditions were perfect. I could not imagine 150 miles on the open ocean, towing a boat with the rudder locked to one side. Than the guy refuses to pay for any damage or extra fuel cost. Give me a break.


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## JedNeck

Drake is sort of a hero to me after watching that...

He survived by his wits...kept his head and stayed calm...saved some people lives and their boat. 

A new windvane toy that was on the fritz is hardly a reason to condem his decision to go for it.


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## aeventyr60

No obligation for anybody to save anybody else's vessel. Maybe their lives, if they are willing. To put your own life, vessel and crew to save somebody's boat? NO. This is reality, offshore...


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## PCP

aeventyr60 said:


> No obligation for anybody to save anybody else's vessel. Maybe their lives, if they are willing. To put your own life, vessel and crew to save somebody's boat? NO. This is reality, offshore...


*Not maybe* saving their lives. If a Mayday is issued and people are in imminent life danger you have an obligation to assist and if possible save their lives.

But I agree, this is not normal. If someone needs a tow it should resource to professionals that deliver that service. Having an amateur given help may damage both boats as it happened.

This is not reality, unless it is BWS reality It had to do with guys that go to sea with boats in bad condition and not insured. If the boat was insured the tow service would be provided.

This is a kind of advise to the guys that think that by buying a used supposedly seaworthy big boat (and spending all of its money on the initial purchase) they are ready for the big adventure. An used big boat needs normally big money to put in seaworthy condition, the maintenance is very expensive as well as the insurance.

So, if one guy takes its risks and go out on the big blue without any insurance and in a boat in bad condition it is reasonable to expect that responsible guys with insured boats in good condition, that minimize their risks, take big risks (out of the insurance) to tow a boat of an irresponsible guy?

Their lives is one thing, their boat is another.

Regards

Paulo


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## jameswilson29

Drake seems like a nice person trying to do his best in a trying situation. I am not sure he was obligated to do anything beyond relaying the _Pan Pan_ to the Bermuda harbormaster and offering to bring them in on his own vessel. He was a good samaritan going above and beyond his obligations in attempting to tow _Cha Cha_ to Bermuda, and endangered his own life and vessel in the process due to _Cha Cha's_ frozen/inoperable steering system.

Although _Cha Cha_ was disabled and the skipper was healing from a head wound, there was no immediate danger to life or health. It seemed there was sufficient food and water for _Cha Cha_ to survive for the indefinite future. Everything that was done was done to preserve property, not protect lives. _Paragon_ could have offered to take them onboard, just as the freighter did, and bring them in to Bermuda. As close as_ Paragon_ was to Bermuda, the only other thing Drake might have done was offer them his EPIRB, if they did not have their own (to be returned when they made Bermuda) so they could have summoned help if and when an emergency developed. Once arriving in Bermuda, Drake could have done everything he could to alert those responsible for rescuing _Cha Cha_ to its situation.


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## Ajax_MD

LandLocked66c said:


> Here's Cha Cha's story! The boat looks ROUGH!
> 
> WOUNDED BOATS (AND FOLK) IN BERMUDA
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Titan 14


I haven't had a chance to view the videos yet, but I was able to read the text of the link posted above. Is the picture of hull damage above, also a broken chainplate?

I think I'm in agreement with ChrisnCate on this one- I'd rather have a smaller, simpler, 100% maintained vessel than a large yacht in poor condition, that I can't afford to repair, and that I can't trust.

Based on my current pay and financial obligations, my Pearson 30 is all the boat that I can afford to own _and_ maintain in peak condition.


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## LandLocked66c

smackdaddy said:


> (PS - I like the part where he admits his real fear in some pretty scary conditions, and I like that you can see him really mulling over what it will mean to answer that Pan-Pan. It's really great stuff. From a joyous dinner on night one to 6 more days of exhausted hell. His boat sure did right by him.)


Yep, the pause as the Pan Pan comes in is classic!


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## Minnewaska

While there is an obligation to assist a vessel in distress, there is NO obligation to endanger yourself. If sea conditions are such that simply sailing to the vessel in distress would endanger your crew, or you would run out of fuel or run out of food/water, you are not obligated to go.

Drake went above and beyond to agree to tow their boat and learned the hard way why it was. Conditions and his stores seemed to dictate that he should respond, but was only obligated to either take them aboard or remain on scene until more capable help arrived, which it did.

I assume most know this, but Bermuda does not have a Coast Guard, nor ocean rescue capabilities, and you are well outside the USCG range. Contacting Bermuda Harbor radio is little more that contacting most harbor masters. They will, of course, try to coordinate a volunteer to help, as any of us would.


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## Minnewaska

LandLocked66c said:


> Yep, the pause as the Pan Pan comes in is classic!


Good video drama. It appeared as if he wasn't going to respond, then you learn he had spoken to them 20 minutes earlier.


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## LandLocked66c

Here is Drake on SBO's



> Hi Larry,
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> I missed a bunch of clues when talking with Cha Cha's captain on the radio. All I could think of at the time was that we had just been through the worst storm, and that they were badly damaged, in danger, and in need of assistance.
> 
> I mistakenly thought that their engine had failed due to something that happened in the storm... I didn't realize that they had actually left Newport without a working engine... that it was suffering from overheating which is usually something very easy to fix... I also mistakenly thought that their staysail roller furler had become damaged in the storm, but later realized that they left Newport to go out in the Atlantic in a season plagued with high wind storms with a completely inoperable staysail roller furler as well.. probably the most important sail to have in a storm... I also thought their steering was somehow completely disabled by the storm beyond repair at sea... but in Bermuda my friend went aboard, tightened a hydraulic fitting with a 1/4 turn with a wrench, and they regained steering....
> 
> Had I realized that they weren't ready for this kind of voyage from the start, then I think I would have been much more cautious...
> 
> Cha Cha's rudder was locked steering them hard to port 100% of the time, and she constantly wavered between being directly behind me or 90 degrees to my port. Occasionally with her additional 10' LWL she would actually gain speed and pull ahead of me by as much as 50 feet... So we had a agreement. Since I was single handed and the tow was to last for days I would have to cat nap for as much as 10-15 minutes at a time.. With two aboard their vessel they would take watches to keep a constant lookout for possible collision. He didn't. At one point I saw that our boats were dangerously close to each other and just waited and watched. With binoculars I could see that no one was in their cockpit keeping watch. No one sounded the alarm.. Minutes later the boats drifted further apart and then I saw him come out in the cockpit... This was my biggest mistake... I should have screamed that they weren't keep watch and keeping with our agreement... I should have told them that if that had happened again or if I found them not keeping watch again then I would discontinue the tow... But I was so sleep deprived by this point that I just let it go... I thought "We're almost there... Just one more day..." Nothing like being woke up from the deepest sleep, in the middle of the night to the violent sound and shaking of a head on boat collision.. My adrenaline hadn't been that high in years if ever...
> 
> Immediately after we cut the tow line and I put safe distance between us I asked.. The captain said that it all just happened too fast for him to realize that we were going to collide... But I suspect that he was asleep..
> 
> I would do it again, but I'd be a heck of a lot more cautious.. I'd want information about why their boat had failed.. And I'd keep a watch on them keeping watch..
> 
> To this day I never thought about taking them aboard my boat before the tow... Maybe we should have done that! They would have been a lot more useful keeping watch with me on my boat than they were on theirs.
> 
> I'd like to point out that the 1 crew aboard was completely new to that boat... With very limited offshore sailing experience, she had just responded to the captain's ad on 'findacrew.net' and flown over from England to make this voyage. She tried for days to fix their SSB radio to call for help... and thank goodness she was aboard and understood that they could broadcast a pan pan on their VHF and did so every 15 minutes.. I'm scared to imagine what would have happened if she had not been there to understand that they could do that..
> 
> Drake


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## LandLocked66c

About the accidental jibe...



> I had that accidental gybe in 25-30 knots at night because I didn't have an adequate preventer... One of the invaluable lessons I just learned from Eric Forsyth on Fiona was how to correctly rig a preventer... I think I'm just getting used to new Aries wind vane... it works well, but just not as great as the old discontinued Aries Lift-up wind vane which is what I was used to from my previous boat (Westsail 32.)


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## LandLocked66c

Damage done to his boat...



> Hi RB, thanks for watching the Bermuda Nightmare story...
> 
> Here's a small excerpt from an article I wrote for the SSCA about it...
> 
> --------------------------
> We cut the towline, and I put safe distance between us. No one was hurt. We both drifted under bare poles. I wanted to cry when I saw the damage. Paragon's enormous stainless steel bowsprit was bent badly all over and in different directions.The thick steel attachment points to the bow sides were bent up by 20 degrees. The bobstay turnbuckle bolt was bent 20 degrees. I was worried about any of it failing and losing the mast and so tied a halyard to a bow cleat. Such misery!
> 
> We were in range of Bermuda Radio and reported everything. Throughout the night as Cha Cha drifted helplessly under bare poles, I motored circles around them as we waited for a towing vessel arranged by Bermuda Radio. In the morning we attempted several times to continue our towing, but soon gave up as the winds and seas and exhaustion made it too difficult to even get the towline across. Finally in the afternoon a 150' mega-yacht sailing vessel named Titan 14 arrived to continue towing Cha Cha, and I sped off for St. George's, praying to make it into the anchorage without any more problems and before dark.
> 
> This was one of the most difficult and nightmarish sailing experiences of my life. The damage to Paragon's bowsprit and rig forced me to put off plans for sailing on to the Pacific, and instead I had to limp back to North Carolina for repairs. Today I'm thankful beyond words for everything that happened. If I hadn't returned to the states then, I wouldn't have met the most wonderful woman! Now Monique and I are preparing to sail aboard Paragon on to the Pacific and around the world as many times as we can.
> ------------------------------
> 
> Since then I've replaced the bowsprit and repaired the other damage and we're looking forward to pushing off from North Carolina in the Spring, headed to Boston to spend the Summer on a mooring ball.


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## LandLocked66c

Here's Cha Cha's owners state of mind - frickin ridiculous!



> They were on the boat the first day I talked to him. The next day he and someone else (there's a story there that I won't get into) did some boatcleaning and it was gone. But, sometimes boats can look better than they are. In this case, I discovered that basically every single system aboard the boat didn't work! (I kid you not!) I talked with him about this. He wasn't really motivated to fix the boat, though. As he saw it, the boat was just fine as it was at anchor: it didn't leak, he could sleep aboard, and go fishing and swimming while at anchor. In other words, it was like an immobile houseboat and summer home on the water - with nice views, I might add. Not my idea of what to do with a boat, particularly that kind of boat, but hey, it's his boat and he seemed perfectly OK with the situation 'as is'.
> 
> Jerry


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## deniseO30

would it be correct to assume the passage from NYC to Bermuda is just too "busy" with other watercraft for a solo sailor to sleep? I know it's a dream to single hand long distance for many that love single handed sailing but.. one thing that can't be left out of the plan is sleep. Kudos to the guy just the same. Amazing trip!


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## RobGallagher

Great story, great videos, great replies. And the moral of it all is;

No good deed goes unpunished.

All persons of good character have been there more than once.


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## CapnBilll

Good post.


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## BluemanSailor

Denise -

I did this trip twice solo, once in 1998 and again in 1999, before I had my Furuno radar, and on a old 32' Bristol. Used 2 windup kitchen timers set for 20 minutes and also another alarm clock set for an hour in case I slept through the timers. I did sleep through the timers I believe twice but the alarm clock woke. 

I would wake up just enough to do a 360 pan around the horizon and if I saw nothing went back to winding up the timers and going back to sleep. Never had a near call except during the day once.. had to change course. After a couple of days you get used it. I continued across the pond on those trips with the same watch schedule working for me. But I also kept my VHF on - turns out big freighters use them to talk from bow to stern much like walkie talkies- so if I heard any chatter I knew a ship was in the vicinity, also had a CARD radar detection which worked occasionally.

In 2002 I went solo from Beaufort to St. Thomas and had a Furuno radar with the vicinity alarm. First couple of days did the timer watch and also kept an eye on the radar which sounded an alarm even when a squall came near me. After a couple of days I felt pretty comfortable with the radar and then would sleep for 2- then 3 then 4 hours at a time- radar seemed to wake me whenever something was nearby, loved it- true I guess I'll never would know what I missed while a sleep.

On my new boat I will again install a good radar system with alarm that works really well, probably Furuno again. But then I am a little older so I don't know how I'll be doing those watchs again. But I still plan on solo sailing as none of my friends are into long ocean passages and am not too keen on taking unknown people along on those long trips.


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## -OvO-

I think there's a bit of "framing" going on as Drake is trying to paint the skipper of Cha Cha as a complete bungler. But he evidently has had sailing experience beforehand -- a little Google-fu turns up

Day 210 « Coffee at Birkdale
CrewFile - Yacht Crew Jobs, Boat Jobs, Cruise Jobs, Sailing Jobs, Sailing Crew, Deliveries
rich littauer's Photos - RansomedHeart.NET

So, who knows. He's clearly been around, and the claim that he didn't know he could call PanPan on VHF is obviously nonsense.


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## LandLocked66c

Hmmm, well perhaps the bump to his head made him a bit cloudy... On the sixth video Drake had to clarify Rich's position to Titan 14.


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## smackdaddy

chrisncate said:


> Wow, what a trip. To me, this once again proves the value of simple, small and reinforced as a mantra for my personal sailing life.
> 
> NEVER do I want to find myself unwilling to do what needs to be done because it's so hard/heavy/overwhelming (Jordan Series Drouge in this case). Why do you think anyone _ever_ sets off without _every last thing_ tried and tested, then tried and tested again? Then one _more_ time before leaving? Are boat nerds who spend all their time building/planning for the worst really so rare?
> 
> I expect the worst (as a life philosophy), and hope for the best. You must expect that every possible thing that can go wrong absolutely will and just be grateful each time it doesn't. You must know your boat inside and out, every nut bolt and system (and if you can operate them under duress) _before_ you can even see the ocean over the bow. Of course anything can happen, but sheesh.. he was contemplating ditching at one point and didn't even have a ditch bag ready to go (luckily prolly in his case, but still)..
> 
> Good stuff either way, fascinating.


I always catch crap for this - but I honestly don't think it's possible to really "be prepared" - in the true meaning of the word - before setting off.

I don't care how good of a sailor you are, you're going to miss something that was right in front of your face. You're going to overlook a problem that had a simple fix. You're going to make a bad decision when the crap hits the fan. You're going to have not seen a weak spot that had been hidden. You're going to screw up. Period. Look at the VOR.

To think any other way is pure hubris.

Drake's problems started when he got hit with a fairly serious storm (F8?). It was that single moment that exposed all the problems (reefing, exhaustion, drogue, chute, no ditch bag, etc.) all of which cascaded very quickly. This to the point that he was ready to ditch what obviously turned out to be a rock-solid boat. You would "never do that"? Okay.

Let's just take the sails and the drogue for example. If you are _really going to prepare yourself_ for what happened to him, you actually need to intentionally take your boat out into an off-shore gale of 40+ knots and 20' seas. And you need to practice...with the sails....with the drogue...and hope that something doesn't break or you don't blow it. That's the bottom line.

Think about it. It's always easy to take this "how could a person go off-shore without experience" and/or "I would never..." viewpoint when it comes to systems, etc. - but there's only one way to gain the experience of how to deal with a storm.

So, who around here is going to _really_ practice and prepare...and walk that walk...intentionally?


----------



## LandLocked66c

smackdaddy said:


> So, who around here is going to _really_ practice and prepare...and walk that walk...intentionally?


I will, but i'll need your boat!


----------



## kwaltersmi

The debate about whether one is obligated to help another sailor out at sea reminds me very much of the age old mountain climber's code of ethics and debate over responsibility in the death zone above 26,000 feet. 

Rendering assistance almost always involves some level of risk, and I'm not sure anyone has an obligation to take on risk. The kind of risk found in bluewater and on mountain tops can cost much more than boat repairs. This is all obviously a value judgement and I think each case should be looked at and assessed independently by captain and crew.


----------



## SPC

Probably a dumb question, but why not transfer the English lady to Paragon? It would be safer for her and permit the Captain to get some sleep.


----------



## jameswilson29

smackdaddy said:


> So, who around here is going to _really_ practice and prepare...and walk that walk...intentionally?


You could go out and practice in heavy air. Rockdawg proposed doing that awhile back and got a bunch of criticism for it from some folks. I think it is a good idea if you plan to sail far offshore.

Start going out every chance you get when its 20 -25 knots or more, and work your way up to near gale conditions or gale conditions, to understand what sails you can carry, how the boat maneuvers, practice reefing and taking down sails, dealing with rain and wind, etc. Test your storm jib and your trisail or double-reefed main. Try hoving-to in heavy air. All good practice.


----------



## JonEisberg

-OvO- said:


> I think there's a bit of "framing" going on as Drake is trying to paint the skipper of Cha Cha as a complete bungler. But he evidently has had sailing experience beforehand -- a little Google-fu turns up
> 
> Day 210 « Coffee at Birkdale
> CrewFile - Yacht Crew Jobs, Boat Jobs, Cruise Jobs, Sailing Jobs, Sailing Crew, Deliveries
> rich littauer's Photos - RansomedHeart.NET
> 
> So, who knows. He's clearly been around, and the claim that he didn't know he could call PanPan on VHF is obviously nonsense.


Yup, perhaps the most sobering aspect to this tale is the fact that this guy actually has a 200 Ton Master's License...



smackdaddy said:


> I always catch crap for this - but I honestly don't think it's possible to really "be prepared" - in the true meaning of the word - before setting off.


True, but for a singlehander, there is _NOTHING_ more vital than reliable self-steering... To have set out for Bermuda without having his windvane sorted out really is hard to fathom...


----------



## Dean101

smackdaddy said:


> I always catch crap for this - but I honestly don't think it's possible to really "be prepared" - in the true meaning of the word - before setting off.
> 
> I don't care how good of a sailor you are, you're going to miss something that was right in front of your face. You're going to overlook a problem that had simple fix. You're going to make a bad decision when the crap hits the fan. You're going to have not seen a weak spot that had been hidden. You're going to screw up. Period. Look at the VOR.
> 
> To think any other way is pure hubris.
> 
> Drake's problems started when he got hit with a fairly serious storm (F8?). It was that single moment that exposed all the problems (reefing, exhaustion, drogue, chute, no ditch bag, etc.) all of which cascaded very quickly. This to the point that he was ready to ditch what obviously turned out to be a rock-solid boat. You would "never do that"? Okay.
> 
> Let's just take the sails and the drogue for example. If you are _really going to prepare yourself_ for what happened to him, you actually need to intentionally take your boat out into an off-shore gale of 40+ knots and 20' seas. And you need to practice...and hope that something doesn't break or you don't blow it. That's the bottom line.
> 
> Think about it. It's always easy to take this "how could a person go off-shore without experience" and/or "I would never..." viewpoint when it comes to systems, etc. - but there's only one way to gain the experience of how to deal with a storm.
> 
> So, who around here is going to _really_ practice and prepare...and walk that walk...intentionally?


I won't give you any crap for this post because I agree with you Smack. I think the best any person can do is to be as prepared as they can be, which still won't always be enough. That sentiment can be applied to just about any endeavor you care to name.

I don't think it was a good idea for Drake to have started his journey without properly testing his windvane. We, or even he himself, will never know if he could have got it to provide adequate control in case he lost his autohelm. And he definitlely should have had an abandon ship plan worked out and been properly equipped to execute it. I'm sure he learned a few things by the time he got to Bermuda and probably told himself the very same things that others comment on from the sidelines.

As far as towing that boat, he did what he felt was the right thing to do at the time and I respect him for it. It was probably more than some would do given the same situation. Sure, he could have done a few things differently, but at the time he didn't have the benefit of hindsight. At least he lived and learned from it.

Having said all that, what do you all think he could have done differently to better cope with fatigue? Is it common practice to acclimate yourself to an appropriate sleep cycle prior to departing on an extended passage?


----------



## smackdaddy

JonEisberg said:


> Yup, perhaps the most sobering aspect to this tale is the fact that this guy actually has a 200 Ton Master's License...
> 
> True, but for a singlehander, there is _NOTHING_ more vital than reliable self-steering... To have set out for Bermuda without having his windvane sorted out really is hard to fathom...


True, but he already had reliable self-steering with the AP...which did function just fine. The windvane was yet _another_ means of self-steering...redundancy...which is a very good thing in terms of seamanship and preparedness. He obviously dropped some coin on these two systems.

So isn't the only real problem in this particular argument that he didn't know enough about the windvane? That seems to be the case. Yet, he didn't really need it since the AP did its job.


----------



## LandLocked66c

JonEisberg said:


> True, but for a singlehander, there is _NOTHING_ more vital than reliable self-steering... To have set out for Bermuda without having his windvane sorted out really is hard to fathom...


I don't think he was using his windvane. It was his autopilot that went berzerk...

Important reading here folks!


> I missed a bunch of clues when talking with Cha Cha's captain on the radio. All I could think of at the time was that we had just been through the worst storm, and that they were badly damaged, in danger, and in need of assistance.
> 
> I mistakenly thought that their engine had failed due to something that happened in the storm... I didn't realize that they had actually left Newport without a working engine... that it was suffering from overheating which is usually something very easy to fix... I also mistakenly thought that their staysail roller furler had become damaged in the storm, but later realized that they left Newport to go out in the Atlantic in a season plagued with high wind storms with a completely inoperable staysail roller furler as well.. probably the most important sail to have in a storm... I also thought their steering was somehow completely disabled by the storm beyond repair at sea... but in Bermuda my friend went aboard, tightened a hydraulic fitting with a 1/4 turn with a wrench, and they regained steering....
> 
> Had I realized that they weren't ready for this kind of voyage from the start, then I think I would have been much more cautious...
> 
> Cha Cha's rudder was locked steering them hard to port 100% of the time, and she constantly wavered between being directly behind me or 90 degrees to my port. Occasionally with her additional 10' LWL she would actually gain speed and pull ahead of me by as much as 50 feet... So we had a agreement. Since I was single handed and the tow was to last for days I would have to cat nap for as much as 10-15 minutes at a time.. With two aboard their vessel they would take watches to keep a constant lookout for possible collision. He didn't. At one point I saw that our boats were dangerously close to each other and just waited and watched. With binoculars I could see that no one was in their cockpit keeping watch. No one sounded the alarm.. Minutes later the boats drifted further apart and then I saw him come out in the cockpit... This was my biggest mistake... I should have screamed that they weren't keep watch and keeping with our agreement... I should have told them that if that had happened again or if I found them not keeping watch again then I would discontinue the tow... But I was so sleep deprived by this point that I just let it go... I thought "We're almost there... Just one more day..." Nothing like being woke up from the deepest sleep, in the middle of the night to the violent sound and shaking of a head on boat collision.. My adrenaline hadn't been that high in years if ever...
> 
> Immediately after we cut the tow line and I put safe distance between us I asked.. The captain said that it all just happened too fast for him to realize that we were going to collide... But I suspect that he was asleep..
> 
> I would do it again, but I'd be a heck of a lot more cautious.. I'd want information about why their boat had failed.. And I'd keep a watch on them keeping watch..
> 
> To this day I never thought about taking them aboard my boat before the tow... Maybe we should have done that! They would have been a lot more useful keeping watch with me on my boat than they were on theirs.
> 
> I'd like to point out that the 1 crew aboard was completely new to that boat... With very limited offshore sailing experience, she had just responded to the captain's ad on 'findacrew.net' and flown over from England to make this voyage. She tried for days to fix their SSB radio to call for help... and thank goodness she was aboard and understood that they could broadcast a pan pan on their VHF and did so every 15 minutes.. I'm scared to imagine what would have happened if she had not been there to understand that they could do that..


----------



## tempest

I think he mentions that he hadn't considered transferring the crew of the Cha Cha. 

It was one of my thoughts, as I was watching the videos. 

There's a lot to be learned here, from sailing solo in the shipping lanes to having long range communications etc etc. In many ways Drake was pretty lucky the weather held as long as it did, and certainly the crew of the Cha Cha owe him big time! 

There's a lot to like about Drake. He's out there doing it. He readily admits his mistakes and fears, and luckily survived them to be able to laugh at himself. For the lack of tightening a nut on the steering system of Cha Cha, Drake would have towed them into the Harbor. 

I imagine that with Cha Cha pulling up along his port side, it would have been pulling his stern to port with it and Drakes auto-pilot over-correcting to compensate, it's amazing that he still got them 125 miles further along that way. It was a noble effort and sad that his boat got damaged in the process. He should never have to pay for a drink again in a sailing port!


----------



## Dean101

LandLocked66c said:


> I don't think he was using his windvane. It was his autopilot that went berzerk...
> 
> Important reading here folks!


I'm pretty sure he was bragging on both his engine and his autopilot. They didn't let him down. He made a fairly long statement about the troubles he was having with the windvane.


----------



## smackdaddy

Dean101 said:


> ....
> 
> Having said all that, what do you all think he could have done differently to better cope with fatigue? Is it common practice to acclimate yourself to an appropriate sleep cycle prior to departing on an extended passage?


+1 on everything you said.

As for how to deal with the sleep cycle stuff...I can't really give you a good answer. Guys like JonE, GeorgeB, JackDale (and many other salts I'm leaving out) who have done seriously long passages would give you far better advice.

As I said earlier, the longest run I've done is 3 days...with a crew of 6. And that's nothing. Yes, we were hand-steering the whole time - which is especially tiring - but the conditions were relatively mellow. Part of the reason for the hand-steering was that we were in a race...but the other part was that the _*AP fell apart while backing out of the slip*_! (Like I said, stuff happens). So we hand-steered on the return as well.

I didn't really acclimate prior to the race. But I'm very good at falling asleep when I need to. I got used to it pretty quickly...BUT, all of us were ALWAYS tired. And we completely cratered when we reached the finish.

I honestly can't imagine singlehanding for a week or more. The exhaustion must be incredible. And because of that, it's perfectly understandable that poor decisions are made at times. It's very hard to think ahead when you're a zombie.

That's why I totally understand Jon's point about self-steering being one of the (if not THE) most critical items for a singlehanded passage. He's been there. He knows.


----------



## Dean101

smackdaddy said:


> I honestly can't imagine singlehanding for a week or more. The exhaustion must be incredible. And because of that, it's perfectly understandable that poor decisions are made at times. It's very hard to think ahead when you're a zombie.
> 
> .


That statement is exactly half of the reason I try not to fault people for the decisions they make. I have also seen highly experienced, highly educated, and highly motivated project supervisors get so caught up in planning the next few phases of construction that they actually forgot to order concrete to finish the current task at hand. Poor decisions can happen to ANYONE, and for a variety of reasons to numerous to name. IMHO, nobody is immune.

Of course, there will always be a few whose make unexcusable decisions, but I think those are instigated by laziness.


----------



## -OvO-

It is simply not possible to acclimate yourself to sleep deprivation. All you'd be doing is ensuring that you start off the event sleep-deprived, instead of just getting that way after a day or two. The best thing to do before any kind of "ultra" event like that is to get three or four solid 8-9 hour sleeps. 

Having occasionally found myself in situations where I had to make critical decisions after 36 hours awake, I have learned to find the absolute minimum action I can take right now to stabilize the situation so everything is safe, and let myself get six hours of sleep so I can function with a clear head, and not do something stupid by mistake.


----------



## kd3pc

JonEisberg said:


> Yup, perhaps the most sobering aspect to this tale is the fact that this guy actually has a 200 Ton Master's License...
> .


this has nothing to do with anything...it means he passed a test, and had some hours on a boat...nothing more...some masters have never been aboard a sailboat, let alone know anything about their systems..


----------



## JonEisberg

smackdaddy said:


> True, but he already had reliable self-steering with the AP...which did function just fine. The windvane was yet _another_ means of self-steering...redundancy...which is a very good thing in terms of seamanship and preparedness. He obviously dropped some coin on these two systems.
> 
> So isn't the only real problem in this particular argument that he didn't know enough about the windvane? That seems to be the case. Yet, he didn't really need it since the AP did its job.


Well, then he had it backwards... For such a passage, the vane should have been his _PRIMARY_ means of steering, and the autopilot his backup... (What good is redundancy, anyway, if it hasn't been sorted out, and able to be implemented should the need arise?) Offshore sailors don't spend the money and go through the trouble of fitting a windvane as a _backup_, especially when a good vane will outperform an autopilot - without requiring electricity to do so - in most conditions...

Wouldn't surprise me at all, if his accidental jibe had something to do with the autopilot not being up to the task of handling the conditions at the time, either... And, it certainly sounds like it went haywire in the end, I don't see how he rams a boat he was towing, otherwise...


----------



## Dean101

-OvO- said:


> It is simply not possible to acclimate yourself to sleep deprivation. All you'd be doing is ensuring that you start off the event sleep-deprived, instead of just getting that way after a day or two. The best thing to do before any kind of "ultra" event like that is to get three or four solid 8-9 hour sleeps.
> 
> Having occasionally found myself in situations where I had to make critical decisions after 36 hours awake, I have learned to find the absolute minimum action I can take right now to stabilize the situation so everything is safe, and let myself get six hours of sleep so I can function with a clear head, and not do something stupid by mistake.


This may be something worth trying here at home. Over a long weekend I could do as I would normally do except never let myself sleep for more than 20 minutes as Drake did. Each time I wake up I would make myself get up and look out a window from each side of the house, simulating a watch. Hopefully I won't see ANY supertankers bearing down on me nut if I do, at least it won't be fatal!:laugher


----------



## Faster

I worked shift work half my career... you definitely get fuzzy thinking going after 24 hours or more without proper sleep...

In my limited experience long voyaging I recall realizing in the mid-watch dusk off the Oregon Coast that I had been conversing with a sailbag lashed to the base of the mast.. This after only a day or so of attempting to acclimatize to the watch schedule.

You never know how things will go until you go....


----------



## Dean101

JonEisberg said:


> Well, then he had it backwards... For such a passage, the vane should have been his _PRIMARY_ means of steering, and the autopilot his backup... (What good is redundancy, anyway, if it hasn't been sorted out, and able to be implemented should the need arise?) Offshore sailors don't spend the money and go through the trouble of fitting a windvane as a _backup_, especially when a good vane will outperform an autopilot - without requiring electricity to do so - in most conditions...
> 
> Wouldn't surprise me at all, if his accidental jibe had something to do with the autopilot not being up to the task of handling the conditions at the time, either... And, it certainly sounds like it went haywire in the end, I don't see how he rams a boat he was towing, otherwise...


Since the boat he was towing was longer than his would the increased water line length and greater theoretical hull speed combined with the skewing action caused by Cha Cha's jammed rudder cause her to overtake Drake much like a waterskier whipping up even with the tow boat? What I see wrong with this idea though, is that if the rudder caused the boat to steer constantly to port, I would think that it would circle to port in the event of a slack to line, unless it did a 360 degree turn. But then, Drakes constant speed would have outrun the disabled vessel, unless Drake was asleep and his AP failed... Oh, my head is going to explode!!! What a theory!


----------



## LandLocked66c

Dean101 said:


> This may be something worth trying here at home. Over a long weekend I could do as I would normally do except never let myself sleep for more than 20 minutes as Drake did. Each time I wake up I would make myself get up and look out a window from each side of the house, simulating a watch. Hopefully I won't see ANY supertankers bearing down on me nut if I do, at least it won't be fatal!:laugher


You could always try Polyphasic Sleep...

Polyphasic Sleep


----------



## LandLocked66c

Dean101 said:


> Since the boat he was towing was longer than his would the increased water line length and greater theoretical hull speed combined with the skewing action caused by Cha Cha's jammed rudder cause her to overtake Drake much like a waterskier whipping up even with the tow boat? What I see wrong with this idea though, is that if the rudder caused the boat to steer constantly to port, I would think that it would circle to port in the event of a slack to line, unless it did a 360 degree turn. But then, Drakes constant speed would have outrun the disabled vessel, unless Drake was asleep and his AP failed... Oh, my head is going to explode!!! What a theory!


Dude, he addresses this.



> Cha Cha's rudder was locked steering them hard to port 100% of the time, and she constantly wavered between being directly behind me or 90 degrees to my port. Occasionally with her additional 10' LWL she would actually gain speed and pull ahead of me by as much as 50 feet... So we had a agreement. Since I was single handed and the tow was to last for days I would have to cat nap for as much as 10-15 minutes at a time.. With two aboard their vessel they would take watches to keep a constant lookout for possible collision. He didn't. At one point I saw that our boats were dangerously close to each other and just waited and watched. With binoculars I could see that no one was in their cockpit keeping watch. No one sounded the alarm.. Minutes later the boats drifted further apart and then I saw him come out in the cockpit... This was my biggest mistake... I should have screamed that they weren't keep watch and keeping with our agreement... I should have told them that if that had happened again or if I found them not keeping watch again then I would discontinue the tow... But I was so sleep deprived by this point that I just let it go... I thought "We're almost there... Just one more day..." Nothing like being woke up from the deepest sleep, in the middle of the night to the violent sound and shaking of a head on boat collision.. My adrenaline hadn't been that high in years if ever...


----------



## killarney_sailor

*Only one thing to fear*



Faster said:


> I worked shift work half my career... you definitely get fuzzy thinking going after 24 hours or more without proper sleep...
> 
> In my limited experience long voyaging I recall realizing in the mid-watch dusk off the Oregon Coast that I had been conversing with a sailbag lashed to the base of the mast.. This after only a day or so of attempting to acclimatize to the watch schedule.
> 
> You never know how things will go until you go....


As long as the sail bag did not answer back you should be good to go.


----------



## Dean101

LandLocked66c said:


> Dude, he addresses this.


Yes, he did address it. At least the WLL and the rudder being hard to port. I was thinking (or typing) out loud, trying to visualize how that would work. With any headway, Cha Cha would continually try to turn to port, right? Drake said he was making 2 - 3 Kts during the tow. The only possible ways I can think of that the two boats could collide is either Drakes boat experienced a course change or Cha Cha swung on the tow line far enough forward of Drake that it lost its momentum and drifted into Paragon as he continued to motor ahead.

I'm just trying to visualize this in case I'm ever asked to tow a vessel with a jammed rudder. I honestly wouldn't have thought that Drakes towing speed plus the jammed rudder could have generated enough speed to move Cha Cha that far forward of Drakes position. if he was towing at a much faster speed, maybe, but I'm frankly puzzled by this but it's nice to know it could happen just in case.


----------



## smackdaddy

killarney_sailor said:


> As long as the sail bag did not answer back you should be good to go.


Heh-heh. Never singlehand again!


----------



## LandLocked66c

Dean101 said:


> Yes, he did address it. At least the WLL and the rudder being hard to port. I was thinking (or typing) out loud, trying to visualize how that would work. With any headway, Cha Cha would continually try to turn to port, right? Drake said he was making 2 - 3 Kts during the tow. The only possible ways I can think of that the two boats could collide is either Drakes boat experienced a course change or Cha Cha swung on the tow line far enough forward of Drake that it lost its momentum and drifted into Paragon as he continued to motor ahead.
> 
> I'm just trying to visualize this in case I'm ever asked to tow a vessel with a jammed rudder. I honestly wouldn't have thought that Drakes towing speed plus the jammed rudder could have generated enough speed to move Cha Cha that far forward of Drakes position. if he was towing at a much faster speed, maybe, but I'm frankly puzzled by this but it's nice to know it could happen just in case.


Yah, in the video you can see what the boat in tow is doing. What actually happened would be hard to know at this point. Glad I wasn't there!


----------



## killarney_sailor

I was thinking about the woman transferring to Drake's boat since that is where the more serious work had to be done. Also I am sure you would been happy to be on a boat that was not falling apart and the weather was pretty calm. 

Ah, 20-20 hindsight sitting at a computer is a wonderful thing.


----------



## LandLocked66c

smackdaddy said:


> Heh-heh. Never singlehand again!


I've been meaning to watch that movie again!


----------



## ccriders

Dean101 said:


> Yes, he did address it. At least the WLL and the rudder being hard to port. I was thinking (or typing) out loud, trying to visualize how that would work. With any headway, Cha Cha would continually try to turn to port, right? Drake said he was making 2 - 3 Kts during the tow. The only possible ways I can think of that the two boats could collide is either Drakes boat experienced a course change or Cha Cha swung on the tow line far enough forward of Drake that it lost its momentum and drifted into Paragon as he continued to motor ahead.
> 
> I'm just trying to visualize this in case I'm ever asked to tow a vessel with a jammed rudder. I honestly wouldn't have thought that Drakes towing speed plus the jammed rudder could have generated enough speed to move Cha Cha that far forward of Drakes position. if he was towing at a much faster speed, maybe, but I'm frankly puzzled by this but it's nice to know it could happen just in case.


It could have gone like this:
They were powering into the wind. Cha Cha skews out to port, pulls ahead of Paragon, pulls Paragon's stern to port, Cha Cha slows, wind and wave pushes Cha Cha's bow to starboard (or to port), Paragon's AP directs him back on course and plows into Cha Cha amidships.

I just wish that for his sake, when Drake closed on Cha Cha there had been heavier seas and wind, then he might not have continued with the initial premise that he could tow them to Burmuda. Later, just before the collision I think he realized that he should not be towing such a large boat in the conditions at hand, but was unable to think it through to a decision that would have left both boats not risking further damage.

One thing I have learned from this and other such accounts is to reef and furl before the sun goes down - every time. If you are not racing, then better safe than sorry.

Another is to heave to and go to sleep with radar/AIS/all that stuff set to awaken you when danger is near.

John


----------



## jackdale

jackdale said:


> The requirement is to render assistance, without endangering your own crew / vessel. He had enough fuel to tow I presume.
> 
> I have not yet watched all of the videos - tomorrow's to do list.
> 
> Disclaimer - I am not a lawyer; I just get all legalistic sometimes.


Watched the videos and did some extra reading.

I would suggest that Drake is a great guy who made a very good (not great decision) in the case.

Towing in calm seas is an acceptable rendering of assistance. Ending the tow after the collision is also acceptable as the tow proved to be unsafe. I would be interested to read what happened when Titan 14 towed Cha Cha in. Did they have the same problems?

I also believe that not only is Drake entitled to payment for the damages, he is entitled to remuneration for his assistance under the Convention for the Unification of Certain Rules of Law respecting Assistance and Salvage at Sea (Convention for the Unification of Certain Rules of Law respecting Assistance and Salvage at Sea (Brussels 1910))

Drake's actions in providing the assistance are hugely commendable. He acted reasonably and had reasons for his actions. I think the most telling action he took was ensuring that his engine was ready for the tow. How many here would think of changing the engine oil?

Could things have been done differently? Of course.

Should he have tested his wind vane - of course. But that had no bearing on the course of events. Should he have had a ditch bag, SSB, Sat Phone - probably a good idea. Again no bearing on the outcome. Should he have had the JSD set to deploy - definitely. The irony is that would have probably put him out of radio contact with Cha Cha, as would his being on a more appropriate tack when hove-to.

Should he be single-handing on an ocean passage - I think most here would know my opinion.


----------



## jackdale

killarney_sailor said:


> I was thinking about the woman transferring to Drake's boat since that is where the more serious work had to be done. Also I am sure you would been happy to be on a boat that was not falling apart and the weather was pretty calm.
> 
> Ah, 20-20 hindsight sitting at a computer is a wonderful thing.


 I was imagining how it could be done. You could attach a carabiner to the tow line with a line and then use a dinghy / tender to work you way over. There is a huge knot in the middle of the tow rope.


----------



## jackdale

Faster said:


> In my limited experience long voyaging I recall realizing in the mid-watch dusk off the Oregon Coast that I had been conversing with a sailbag lashed to the base of the mast.. This after only a day or so of attempting to acclimatize to the watch schedule.


Many single handed racers develop imaginary friends onboard. Robin Knox Johnstone claims it did not happen to him; but he describes an episode in his that is to the contrary.


----------



## davidpm

It sounds like the Bermuda trip is either no wind and motor or too much wind and suffer.
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gener...d/66106-just-arrived-branford-ct-bermuda.html

My trip was with a crew of 7 and I still felt massively beat up. Even though we had plenty of down time I could not sleep because I had an upper berth and was airborne most of the time and was in serious danger of falling out.

Unless you have experienced it it is hard to express the violence of the experience. Standing, moving, sitting even laying down takes a lot of care and concentration.
It sounds like he had it worse than we did by at least 10mph which is significant.

Also it is hard to convey the weight of command. I had no responsibility. It was not my 200,000 boat that sounded like it was breaking up. I didn't have to make the many decisions to keep boat and crew safe.

The emotional and physical toll I can only imagine.

The only thing I am disappointed about was his not sharing his personal insights after being in the the storm for two days.


----------



## killarney_sailor

*Not the simple*



ccriders said:


> One thing I have learned from this and other such accounts is to reef and furl before the sun goes down - every time. If you are not racing, then better safe than sorry.
> 
> Another is to heave to and go to sleep with radar/AIS/all that stuff set to awaken you when danger is near.
> 
> John


I think that it is too simple to say always reef before the sun goes down - very Royal Navyish to me. Like everything else it depends. When we left Norfolk to go to St Thomas in November 2009 there was a low forming just off the Delaware coast. Within a few days it was at 969 mb at the tip of Greenland with a cold front stretching to Cuba. This was all forecast. We left just around dark and pushed hard that night and the next to get as far south and east as possible before the storm got too nasty. We were prepared to reef at any time,night or day of course and did so, the first night as I remember and then continued to shorten sail for the next three days. Boats that left the next morning (remember we are only talking 12 hours), go the crap kicked out of them and most had to go into Bermuda with storm damage.

I would consider this to be a case of tactical thinking (push hard to avoid something nasty) winning out over strategic thinking (shorten sail when it is dark to make life easier). BTW, I don't consider myself to be an agressive sailor/cruiser, but you do what makes sense and don't fall back on simple rules of behaviour.

As to your other point, you have to get sleep anytime you can - even if it is in short naps (note my comment about why the guy was making videos when he could have been resting). Fatigue really matters. Also, single handing is inherently more dangerous than having a crew and watches. You have to decide what the correct balance is between sleeping and being watchful. Being really watchful may be more dangerous than getting the extra sleep. It is hard to make the balance.

We were going from NYC to Bermuda a number of years ago and were about 400 miles from New York and almost had a head-on collision with another sailboat heading the other way. Happened we had two crew in the cockpit and saw his tri-colour some distance away. Tried calling on the VHF and got no response and passed him within 100 feet (with a tiny course adjustment on our part) and yelled and shone a bright light into his boat with no reponse. Till this day he does not know how close he came to sinking both of us (and more likely him his boat was smaller and lot lighter than mine). At least he had his lights on.

NYC-Bermuda has lots of traffic near the US shore but not too busy once you get out past the shipping lanes. Freighters tend to follow the same directions. Fishing boats are the problem, they pop up all over the place. The exception for going to Bermuda are the cruise ships. They tend to leave Bermuda and New York at the same time pretty much and go the same speed. We had three of them overtake us one night on both sides within about 3 hours. This was prefer GPS so a very good LOP which was handy considering it was pretty cloudy and hard to get celestial sights.


----------



## jackdale

smackdaddy said:


> As for how to deal with the sleep cycle stuff...I can't really give you a good answer. Guys like JonE, GeorgeB, JackDale (and many other salts I'm leaving out) who have done seriously long passages would give you far better advice.


My $.02

1) I will not single-hand on passages.

2) I like at least 2 people on a watch.

3) I usually use a 2 watch system known as a modified Swedish system (Watch system - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

0600 - 1200 port on, starboard off 6 hours
1200 - 1800 starboard on, port off 6 hours
1800 - 2300 port on, starboard off 5 hours
2300 - 0300 starboard on, port off 4 hours
0300 - 0600 port on, starboard off 3 hours

The odd number of watches means that no one serves the same watch 2 days in a row. You do acclimatize to a 48 hour cycle.

If I have sufficient crew, as skipper I do not take a watch but am available at all times. I usually will knap in 45 minute blocks, with an occasional longer sleep. My standing orders require that I be awoken under a number circumstances like worsening weather, vessels close by, etc.. That is also how some navies, like the Canadian, do it. If I am a watch captain on another skippers boat, or we have an experienced watch captain, I will join a watch.


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## killarney_sailor

*Interesting*



jackdale said:


> I was imagining how it could be done. You could attach a carabiner to the tow line with a line and then use a dinghy / tender to work you way over. There is a huge knot in the middle of the tow rope.


I was thinking that, assuming she was comfortable with it, using a line as you describe and wearing a life jacket and swimming over. They were close enough to Bermuda that the water would be warm. I guess the question would be how would she get onto Paragon once she got there. Westail 42 has high freeboard as I remember and nothing like a sugar scoop to help.

If you used a dinghy, it becomes a question of whose dinghy and how to launch it and retrieve it. Getting into the dinghy in swells would be more dangerous than jumping into the water; but getting out would be easier than going up a boarding ladder or getting hauled up by a halyard.


----------



## jackdale

JonEisberg said:


> Yup, perhaps the most sobering aspect to this tale is the fact that this guy actually has a 200 Ton Master's License...


There was one incident that lead me to wonder about him; when he sustained the head injury puking in the head. I do not permit my crews to puke in the head as undigested food will block it. Every crew member has a large Ziplock bag for puking below.


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## ccriders

Kilarney Sailor,
You keep saying we... I think most exhausted singlehanders probably will not go out into that cold dark night a put a reef in the main even though the wind is screaming for him to do so. And those few that do so are at greater risk of being damaged or causing damage. I understand your point that sometimes you need to "out run" a storm system, but how often can a solo sailor actually do that? Fierce storms travel faster than any sailboat I've ever been on.
But then, maybe WE could do it your way.
John


----------



## GeorgeB

Smack - altogether, those videos are like an hour long… Where do you find the time? Unfortunately, I only clicked through them without the audio so I really can’t comment on them. Any chance someone will post the Clift Notes version? In regards to the sleep question: You’re never so rested as the day you step aboard and never so tired as the day you step off. Every time you sleep you put a little in the “bank” and every moment awake, you are withdrawing a whole lot more. The object is to pace yourself so you don’t have a zero bank balance at the end of the trip. At least during the beginning part of a cruise, I try to sleep every moment that I’m not actively engaged in driving the boat, fixing the boat or eating. Fortunately, I can sleep most anywhere and in most any sea state. The bad news is it is easy for me to sleep through alarms. To be really rested, I need three to four hours in one stretch which doesn’t happen when you are single handing. After about a week I get acclimatized enough so I can be up more. Until then, I’m pretty jealous about my beauty sleep. I also never sleep forward of the mast and have on occasion, slept on the cabin sole with a sail bag as a mattress. Boats are incredibly noisy and I sleep with ear plugs and a sleep mask or bandana during the day.

Double handing is just like single handing except you do get to sleep a lot more. The only time you see your partner is at watch changes so you get plenty of solitude. Crew of three is way, way better as everyone gets decent sleep cycles and you still get plenty of solitude.

Jon – I thought that this guy had a 50 Ton USCG license and that 200 Ton thing was something else?

Jack- How do you guys clean out your puke bags? We have a bucket available that we clean out with sea water.


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## vega1860

I really do not know what to say about this. 

Drake Paragon presents the real "cruising life? Not my cruising life!

I suppose it is a good insight for noobs though and it gives us something to talk about here on SailNet.


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## killarney_sailor

When I said 'we' I meant my wife and I - not pretending to speak for anyone else. We did not outrun the storm in question but we got to an area where it was not as bad 25 to 35 knots as compared to 35 to 45. We were going SW and the low pressure area was to move almost northward, so it was to stay ahead of the frontal development as much as possible.

About the exhausted singlehander not wanting to be out there putting in a reef:
a) I am with Jackdale - don't singlehand in such circumstances in the first place.
b) avoid exhaustion - see a) + if things are working as they should on your boat (self-steering, reefing, etc) you won't be as tired. Also if you look at the videos it was often not bad at all. Stop (heave to or lie ahull) and sleep.
c) Rig the boat so you can reef from the cockpit. To my way of thinking that is part of getting ready to single hand. My Bristol has inmast furling (from the cockpit), but my Niagara 35, which I took offshore a bit) reefed from the cockpit. Drop the halyard to a particular mark on the halyard; take up the outhaul, again to a mark; take the halyard back up snug - would normally take about 3 minutes if you were motivated and all while standing under the dodger staying dry.
d) if you on a two-person boat and the other person is asleep you are singlehanding. You don't call the person off-watch to put in or take out a reef. If you have to go on-deck (very rarely would you need to) you do have to get the other person up.


----------



## smackdaddy

Wow! Now this is some GREAT discussion! Lots to learn. Thanks to all the SN Salts...and keep it coming.

As for the issue of potentially transferring the woman - I don't see a good, safe way to do it if the seas were up at all. After watching all those videos of ship rescues, and even MOB recoveries, there's just no clean, un-dangerous way to do it.

That said, I think it was actually pretty calm when he arrived on scene. Still - it's complicated.


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## casey1999

In the video the Titan asked the Cha Cha if they would pay for damages to Titan during the tow- Cha Cha said they had no money, but apparently Titan towed anyway. 

Say you are going to give someone a tow. Is this a good question to ask? Seems like it is as it may give you some legal recourse. Say the boat to be towed replies like Cha Cha (got no money) then you say well will you agree that I will get a salvage payment for the tow and potential damage to my boat. Maybe the vessel to be towed could write all this down and toss it to you in a bottle prior to the tow. This may mean the vessel being towed needs to be sold once it reaches the port you are towing to.

Could Drake claim salvage rights on the Cha Cha for both the damaged he sustained and also for reimbursement fot his open ocean tow?


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## bgeddes

As a noob I think I learned a lot from this series of videos. 

It is common for a licensed captain to have no knowledge of how boat systems work? I ask this because the follow up claims the rudder repair was very simple. Leaving the port with a questionable engine seems reckless. How typical is it for blue water sailing sans long range communication capabilities? Either Sat Phone or SSB or both. 

Onboard a sailboat, I can not imagine not having a set of gear at the ready in the event of catastrophe. Alone on a boat in distress how could there possibly be time to assemble this stuff? 

Maybe I am naive, or over-cautious, or of a mindset that values the fact that things will always go wrong at the worst possible time, and will compound and create an unforeseen situation. One could reason that knowing the boat, having spares (perhaps an old sail to raise when the storm passes), and knowing the boat is as near 100% as possible prior to departure could minimize the impact of things going wrong.


----------



## jackdale

casey1999 said:


> Could Drake claim salvage rights on the Cha Cha for both the damaged he sustained and also for reimbursement fot his open ocean tow?


The crew of Cha Cha stayed onboard, so no salvage rights. But I mentioned earlier that Drake may be due remuneration.


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## casey1999

Seems to me this mate Drake is a pretty cool guy, very honest, and a much better sailor than most, and willing to put his life on the line to help out a stranger. A lot more to be said for this sailor than could be said for 99.99999999999999999999999999999999% percent of the rest of the people on this planet.

One question though, what about all the stuff strapped to the deck and rails of the boat? Diesel fuel bladders, two dingys, big cockpit enclosure, all kinds of stuff hanging off the stern rails. Some storms I have been in would rip all that clear off the boat, and would not want all those broken diesel bladders leaking fuel all over the deck and into the ocean.


----------



## casey1999

jackdale said:


> The crew of Cha Cha stayed onboard, so no salvage rights. But I mentioned earlier that Drake may be due remuneration.


Read your recent post with the web link. Still am not clear on the Salvage laws. My understanding you can be on your boat, be assisted or towed by another boat, and the other boat could still claim salvage. This can also be a problem during a hard grounding- the other boat could claim salvage. My understanding is that if you ask for assistance from someone, you should also ask is the assistance free, otherwise they could claim salvage.


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## chrisncate

casey1999 said:


> Read your recent post with the web link. Still am not clear on the Salvage laws. My understanding you can be on your boat, be assisted or towed by another boat, and the other boat could still claim salvage. This can also be a problem during a hard grounding- the other boat could claim salvage. My understanding is that if you ask for assistance from someone, you should also ask is the assistance free, otherwise they could claim salvage.


Addendum: Always give YOUR OWN line for a tow....


----------



## casey1999

casey1999 said:


> Seems to me this mate Drake is a pretty cool guy, very honest, and a much better sailor than most, and willing to put his life on the line to help out a stranger. A lot more to be said for this sailor than could be said for 99.99999999999999999999999999999999% percent of the rest of the people on this planet.


Need to add some clarification as to why I think this man is a excellent sailor, you never see him lose control of a situation, yea maybe he made a few mistakes, but here he was, operating alone trying to helps someone out and things go wrong- but never does Drake freak out as most people would. Sailing is 80% attitude and 20% technique- anyone can learn the technique if they want to.


----------



## JonEisberg

GeorgeB said:


> Jon - I thought that this guy had a 50 Ton USCG license and that 200 Ton thing was something else?


Just an assumption on my part, based on the reference in the blog post "Coffee in Birkdale" linked to earlier, which stated he was licensed to skipper yachts up to 200 tons...

Needless to say, it doesn't matter, this clown is an embarrassment to professional mariners... Bear in mind, he was the paid captain on CHA-CHA for a few years previous before the boat was handed over to him by the previous owner in settlement of unpaid wages, and yet _a complete stranger_ comes aboard in Bermuda, and restores the steering by simply tightening a hydraulic fitting??? UFB...

Just a hunch, but despite the inoperable engine, seized staysail furler, empty wallet, and on an on... I'm guessing the ONE thing which was likely not in short supply aboard that piece of crap, would be _RUM_... (grin)


----------



## JonEisberg

casey1999 said:


> Need to add some clarification as to why I think this man is a excellent sailor, you never see him lose control of a situation, yea maybe he made a few mistakes, but here he was, operating alone trying to helps someone out and things go wrong- but never does Drake freak out as most people would. Sailing is 80% attitude and 20% technique- anyone can learn the technique if they want to.


That's an assumption taken on quite a bit of faith, it seems to me...

The guy directed and edited those YouTubes himself, after all... (grin)


----------



## casey1999

JonEisberg said:


> That's an assumption taken on quite a bit of faith, it seems to me...
> 
> The guy directed and edited those YouTubes himself, after all... (grin)


Assumption is based on the VHF comms that were live and shown on the video. Yea maybe he did some edits but all the comms part was actually what was happening and not rehersed and is what I am basing it on. He seemed pretty level headed, relaxed, calm and in control of the situation during those times.


----------



## neverknow

casey1999 said:


> Need to add some clarification as to why I think this man is a excellent sailor, you never see him lose control of a situation, yea maybe he made a few mistakes, but here he was, operating alone trying to helps someone out and things go wrong- but never does Drake freak out as most people would. Sailing is 80% attitude and 20% technique- anyone can learn the technique if they want to.


I'm 100% sure he did freak out, probably many times. But we only saw a hour or so of a week long trip. Much like a so called reality show you can edit until you get what you want.

Besides I don't think anyone could blame him for freaking.

If I have not done so already I'd like to thank Drake for posting these vids. For us land locked ppl they are fun and entertaining to watch. Not to mention educational.


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## JonEisberg

casey1999 said:


> Assumption is based on the VHF comms that were live and shown on the video. Yea maybe he did some edits but all the comms part was actually what was happening and not rehersed and is what I am basing it on. He seemed pretty level headed, relaxed, calm and in control of the situation during those times.


Agreed, but I'm hard pressed to find much in there that would have caused anyone to "freak out, as most people would"...

Just pointing out that such snippets are pretty selective - there is no video whatsoever, for example, of "The Storm" - which _might_ have afforded the possibility to witness somewhat of a "loss of control"... (grin)


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## SlowButSteady

I'm not sure why some people seem to be ragging on Drake so much in this thread. He did get caught with too much sail up as a squall hit, and he wasn't _completely_ prepared for a passage like this one, but he got things under control without too much damage. If Drake has a glaring fault, it's that he is brutally honest (at least in these videos) when he messes up. He then managed to ride out a storm and continue to his destination without any more real trouble.

It wasn't until he got involved with _Cha-Cha_ that things really went south. _Cha-Cha's_ skipper almost certainly had a moderate to severe concussion, and was almost certainly still feeling the effects of such during the towing operations, so I'm not sure how hard we should come down on him either (although it is less clear how well prepared he was for such a passage). Mistakes were made, but sh1t happens, no one is ever completely prepared for everything.

Bottom line is that Drake did what he could to help (far more than most people would do) and everyone got to Bermuda in one piece (more or less). I'm sure Drake learned a lot for the experience; let's hope other can similarly profit.


----------



## tempest

I don't think Drake came down with yesterdays rain, he's got some miles under his keel.
He's quite comfortable out there. This is one of a two part 2005 video.


----------



## Faster

SlowButSteady said:


> I'm not sure why some people seem to be ragging on Drake so much in this thread.....


My impression is that most of the harsh criticism has been directed at the skipper/owner/resident of Cha Cha rather than Drake..?


----------



## vega1860

I won't fault Drake's seamanship. Sure, he made some mistakes but he kept his head and did his best under difficult conditions. I am certain he learned some valuable lessons in the process. Drake deserves kudos for his willingness to help in spite of the risk to himself and his vessel.

But, as a trained RTO, I was appalled at his running on at the mouth on channel 16. I hasten to add that this sort of thing is all too common among recreational boaters. _Please_ people. Learn to use the radio! It is not a telephone.


----------



## Skippyman

Just caught up with the thread. Great post, I learned a lot. I read somewhere that God, Nature, the Fates, what ever, allows you a bank of luck. You make deposits in the bank by practicing good seamanship. ie reef before dark, have a bug out bag, keep a tight clean well maintained ship, ect. By not cutting corners your credits mount up so when the s#@% hits the fan you can withdraw from your account and you earn the right to sail again. I don't know, but I think Drake maby made a withdraw or two, but I think he probably still has a full account.


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## Rockter

Handsome cat.


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## davidpm

Drake didn't seem to have a spare jib sheet available, had to use the tail of another line, the main sheet if I remember.
Did have engine spares he needed, oil, filters etc.
The amount of stuff you should have is significant.


----------



## smackdaddy

SlowButSteady said:


> I'm not sure why some people seem to be ragging on Drake so much in this thread. He did get caught with too much sail up as a squall hit, and he wasn't _completely_ prepared for a passage like this one, but he got things under control without too much damage. *If Drake has a glaring fault, it's that he is brutally honest (at least in these videos) when he messes up.* He then managed to ride out a storm and continue to his destination without any more real trouble.


Bingo. This is precisely why these videos are so good as opposed to most...and precisely why I really like/respect this guy...warts and all.


----------



## smackdaddy

Skippyman said:


> Just caught up with the thread. Great post, I learned a lot. I read somewhere that God, Nature, the Fates, what ever, allows you a bank of luck. You make deposits in the bank by practicing good seamanship. ie reef before dark, have a bug out bag, keep a tight clean well maintained ship, ect. By not cutting corners your credits mount up so when the s#@% hits the fan you can withdraw from your account and you earn the right to sail again. I don't know, but I think Drake maby made a withdraw or two, but I think he probably still has a full account.


Vigor's Black Box Theory.


----------



## smackdaddy

chrisncate said:


> Well what about being prepared in the sense of at least testing your gear in moderate conditions in a controlled setting like inland waters? (The Jordan Series drouge, reefing the big ol' main in airs for example)? what about having a ditch bag at the ready? I agree that no one can foresee everything, but what about the examples I give above? If you're going to single hand to Bermuda from NYC, these things are not an option imo. no?
> 
> I don't think you need test in actual conditions (moots the theory of the _test_ I'd think), I do think you need to test in "half" conditions to at least get a feel. no?
> 
> Me.


Absolutely...do all of the above. I'm just saying one should be careful with the level of shock over someone's mistakes...along with the use of the terms "always" and "never".

(Holy crap! Almost 3500 views in one day! I think that's a record!)


----------



## jackdale

vega1860 said:


> I won't fault Drake's seamanship. Sure, he made some mistakes but he kept his head and did his best under difficult conditions. I am certain he learned some valuable lessons in the process. Drake deserves kudos for his willingness to help in spite of the risk to himself and his vessel.
> 
> But, as a trained RTO, I was appalled at his running on at the mouth on channel 16. I hasten to add that this sort of thing is all too common among recreational boaters. _Please_ people. Learn to use the radio! It is not a telephone.


As a VHF Registered Examiner in Canada, I will not find fault with his radio use. In coastal, congested waters 16 must be reserved as a hailing and distress channel. I found his use of 16 in blue water quite acceptable. Why switch to a working channel when no one else is around?


----------



## jackdale

GeorgeB said:


> Jack- How do you guys clean out your puke bags? We have a bucket available that we clean out with sea water.


The irony is that ever since that rule came into play, no one has puked below. Dump overboard and rinse out with sea water, maybe a little fresh. The bag is always with you. The bucket may be elsewhere or in use. I do not like stuff laying around either. Is you bucket on deck or below?


----------



## neverknow

jackdale said:


> As a VHF Registered Examiner in Canada, I will not find fault with his radio use. In coastal, congested waters 16 must be reserved as a hailing and distress channel. I found his use of 16 in blue water quite acceptable. Why switch to a working channel when no one else is around?


To add to this by staying on CH 16 they might have other vessels come into range and over heard them. On the open ocean that would be a good thing.


----------



## bgeddes

> To add to this by staying on CH 16 they might have other vessels come into range and over heard them. On the open ocean that would be a good thing.


Good point, technically the traffic was still in the management of a distress call....


----------



## jackdale

bgeddes said:


> Good point, technically the traffic was still in the management of a distress call....


Actually it is an urgency call, not distress.


----------



## vega1860

jackdale said:


> As a VHF Registered Examiner in Canada, I will not find fault with his radio use. In coastal, congested waters 16 must be reserved as a hailing and distress channel. I found his use of 16 in blue water quite acceptable. Why switch to a working channel when no one else is around?


Perhaps you missed it when the coast guard came on and told him to switch to a working channel. Or maybe I am mistaken about that. 

Pet peeves and sacred cows are both on the menu here tonight.


----------



## chall03

Have now finally watched all the videos. 
Great thread Smack. A lot to think about, a real insight. 

I think if Drake had one fault it was in being too decent a guy. 

He would also appear to be a damn good sailor in my books who is probably still learning lessons along the way as most of us are.

On fatigue, been there done that.
The reality of fatigue on a sailboat is quite sobering, and only really understood once experienced I believe. 

One night offshore I was completely convinced that my compass and GPS were completely wrong for about 5 minutes. I was utterly adament the boat was going one way and they were obviously mistaken. Even after pulling out a backup GPS, and taking a round of bearings off known lights I couldn't accept the heading that I now knew to be true. I eventually came to my senses but ever since the realisation that despite being a competent and experienced sailor I could become so irrational under such fatigue is a sobering thought.


----------



## LandLocked66c

chall03 said:


> One night offshore I was completely convinced that my compass and GPS were completely wrong for about 5 minutes. I was utterly adament the boat was going one way and they were obviously mistaken. Even after pulling out a backup GPS, and taking a round of bearings off known lights I couldn't accept the heading that I now knew to be true. I eventually came to my senses but ever since the realisation that despite being a competent and experienced sailor I could become so irrational under such fatigue is a sobering thought.


That's pretty freaky! Too bad you didn't get that on tape, we could really have a ball armchairing that instance... :laugher


----------



## Ilenart

Great post Smacky, keeps it up.

Agree that Drake did a pretty good job all up.

Ilenart


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## Ajax_MD

I've only made it through the first couple of videos, so I haven't actually gotten to the "distress" part yet. I'm not going to diss the guy's sailing skills but he kind of comes across as the partially insane singlehander that Kevin Costner stumbled upon in "Waterworld".


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## jameswilson29

BubbleheadMd said:


> ...he kind of comes across as the partially insane singlehander that Kevin Costner stumbled upon in "Waterworld".


Why am I reminded of someone accusing someone else of "gunning [him] down like a thug in the street..." 

Let me get this straight, it is not o.k. to call someone a shrew, but it is o.k. to say someone is partially insane? :laugher


----------



## LandLocked66c

BubbleheadMd said:


> I've only made it through the first couple of videos, so I haven't actually gotten to the "distress" part yet. I'm not going to diss the guy's sailing skills but he kind of comes across as the partially insane singlehander that Kevin Costner stumbled upon in "Waterworld".


Haha! I was waiting for Drake to pull this maneuver!


----------



## smackdaddy

jameswilson29 said:


> Why am I reminded of someone accusing someone else of "gunning [him] down like a thug in the street..."
> 
> Let me get this straight, it is not o.k. to call someone a shrew, but it is o.k. to say someone is partially insane? :laugher


Heh-heh. Touché.


----------



## Ajax_MD

jameswilson29 said:


> Why am I reminded of someone accusing someone else of "gunning [him] down like a thug in the street..."
> 
> Let me get this straight, it is not o.k. to call someone a shrew, but it is o.k. to say someone is partially insane? :laugher


The difference that I see, is that you repeatedly pounded on that chick, and your "shrew" comment was sincerely meant, and in a malicious way, and my comment is made light-heartedly and in jest. If my comment was taken seriously, I apologize.

Drake _seems_ like a nice guy, I was just taken a bit by how much he giggles or laughs at the camera...like he's been on his own for a good bit, but more likely, he's just a cheerful guy.


----------



## smackdaddy

BubbleheadMd said:


> The difference that I see, is that you repeatedly pounded on that chick, and your "shrew" comment was sincerely meant, and in a malicious way, and my comment is made light-heartedly and in jest. If my comment was taken seriously, I apologize.
> 
> Drake _seems_ like a nice guy, I was just taken a bit by how much he giggles or laughs at the camera...like he's been on his own for a good bit, but more likely, he's just a cheerful guy.


That's what I meant in the OP about being driven a bit bonkers in the first couple of videos. He does giggle a lot, seems a bit detached, doesn't use "correct terminology", etc. So you kind of start rolling your eyes pretty quickly.

But after watching the rest of the videos, you realize that he really is just a cheerful, content, and very open guy that handles all the problems (self-inflicted or not) that come his way pretty well - and with refreshing honesty. On top of that, he puts a lot on the line to help another sailor in distress (deserving or not).

Then you understand that this guy has been doing some pretty big sailing for quite a while (the Boston/Bermuda passage in the 2005 video posted above - when they get caught in a 40 knot storm as well, Ireland to Portugal with Eric Forsyth, etc.). He's definitely not "clueless" by any means. He's just his own guy.

I was taken by this series because it shows almost the full gamut of stuff that can go wrong. And it all happens so quickly and then so relentlessly.

He dealt with it. And I learned a lot.

(PS - It also shows that it doesn't take a stack of certs and nautical omniscience to successfully sail off-shore.)


----------



## captflood

Greetings Earthlings. The need to get away somthing as simple as a stopper knot can cause so mutch greef thats wy everyone needs a check (done) list when setting off for a trip. Thanks for shareing SmakDaddy Geat post GO SAFE.


----------



## jameswilson29

BubbleheadMd said:


> The difference that I see, is that you repeatedly pounded on that chick, and your "shrew" comment was sincerely meant, and in a malicious way, and my comment is made light-heartedly and in jest...


The difference is between commenting on someone's behavior (something he or she can change - being a shrew) and commenting on someone's condition (something he or she cannot change - being partially insane).

I love humor, but the "just joking" defense is a cop out; suggesting someone appears to suffer from mild mental illness is hardly light-hearted. (Another possible line of defense: you could try to draw a distinction between appearing to be and actually being?)


----------



## smackdaddy

jameswilson29 said:


> The difference is between commenting on someone's behavior (something he or she can change - being a shrew) and commenting on someone's condition (something he or she cannot change - being partially insane).
> 
> I love humor, but the "just joking" defense is a cop out; suggesting someone appears to suffer from mild mental illness is hardly light-hearted. (Another possible line of defense: you could try to draw a distinction between appearing to be and actually being?)


Heh-heh. Dude, you are SUCH a lawyer!


----------



## smackdaddy

captflood said:


> Greetings Earthlings. The need to get away somthing as simple as a stopper knot can cause so mutch greef thats wy everyone needs a check (done) list when setting off for a trip. Thanks for shareing SmakDaddy Geat post GO SAFE.


No worries flood. Actually, I had the stopper knot thing happen to me and came within maybe 30 feet of being on the rocks.

Some friends had taken the boat out a week or two before and had, for whatever reason, _untied_ the knots in the jib sheets. I didn't check them before we went out. We got hit with a serious blast of wind in a very tight channel, wife lost the sheet in a tack, it pulled through the block and went in, and we started heading broadside to the rocks.

I grabbed the lazy sheet which had thankfully hung up and tried to get it around the winch so try to claw away...no luck. I pulled the lost sheet from the water - but was out of time. We had maybe another 30 seconds before things got crunchy.

Luckily the motor started first pull (which was never a given) and we clawed off.

I'm now pretty good at checking those knots (but I'm sure there's lots of other stuff I'm NOT checking - that I WILL be after it bites me).


----------



## LandLocked66c

smackdaddy said:


> Heh-heh. Dude, you are SUCH a lawyer!


I find it oddly refreshing???


----------



## Ajax_MD

smackdaddy said:


> Heh-heh. Dude, you are SUCH a lawyer!


That's exactly what my next comment was going to be.

Dude, don't lawyer up on me. Next you'll be telling me that I've offended mentally ill people everywhere, and that what I said isn't PC. I'm not PC and this isn't a court room.

Smack chose the words better than I did, and I'll agree to that- He seems kind of detached and I light-heartedly made fun of him for it. That doesn't change the fact that your comments towards that woman were intentionally mean-spirited, and that I consider you to be a borderline misogynist.

You can compare our comments for parity all you like, but you'll never convince me otherwise, so save your keystrokes.


----------



## killarney_sailor

*Exactly right.*



chall03 said:


> On fatigue, been there done that.
> *The reality of fatigue on a sailboat is quite sobering, and only really understood once experienced I believe. *
> 
> One night offshore I was completely convinced that my compass and GPS were completely wrong for about 5 minutes. I was utterly adament the boat was going one way and they were obviously mistaken. Even after pulling out a backup GPS, and taking a round of bearings off known lights I couldn't accept the heading that I now knew to be true. I eventually came to my senses but ever since the realisation that *despite being a competent and experienced sailor I could become so irrational under such fatigue is a sobering thought.*


I completely agree with you. At one point in the middle of the Atlantic I was convinced that I was sailing through a suburban version of Atlantis with big houses and lawns and the street replaced by water. To to this day I don't know if I fell asleep and dreamed it or was awake and hallucinated it - perhaps at some point there is no difference. I was extraordinarily tired when it happened but it was an incredible lesson. Now I do my best to get as much sleep as possible on a passage.


----------



## -OvO-

Formal checklists are a good idea - they make sure you're not forgetting something due to stress, or sleep deprivation, and allow you to reserve cognitive function for the truly unforeseeable events. I'm going to add "check stopper knots" to the "whenever I've not been sailing this boat during the last 24 hours" list.


----------



## killarney_sailor

*Oh know!*



smackdaddy said:


> I was taken by this series because it shows almost the full gamut of stuff that can go wrong. And it all happens so quickly and then so relentlessly.
> 
> He dealt with it. And I learned a lot.


Unfortunately that is not the full range of things than can wrong by a large margin - just a particular subset. He could have lost the engine had the autopilit decided to go on holiday, etc. It does illustrate the idea of a cascading series of problems where it just seems that one thing follows another.

Sometimes you can sail a couple of thousand miles and nothing untoward happens. The biggest problem can be boredom. Another time it is just one thing after another. It is the latter case that is so insidious since each incident, even a fairly minor one does tire you out a bit more and make you less able to handle the next thing that happens. Plus you are more likely to make a mistake which causes etc, etc.


----------



## jackdale

vega1860 said:


> Perhaps you missed it when the coast guard came on and told him to switch to a working channel. Or maybe I am mistaken about that.
> 
> Pet peeves and sacred cows are both on the menu here tonight.


That was Bermuda radio asking them to switch to their channel. Not unlike Victoria CG radio asking me to switch to 22A.


----------



## smackdaddy

killarney_sailor said:


> Unfortunately that is not the full range of things than can wrong by a large margin - just a particular subset. He could have lost the engine had the autopilit decided to go on holiday, etc. It does illustrate the idea of a cascading series of problems where it just seems that one thing follows another.
> 
> Sometimes you can sail a couple of thousand miles and nothing untoward happens. The biggest problem can be boredom. Another time it is just one thing after another. It is the latter case that is so insidious since each incident, even a fairly minor one does tire you out a bit more and make you less able to handle the next thing that happens. Plus you are more likely to make a mistake which causes etc, etc.


Good point. I was reaching a little there with "full".


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## downeast450

Thanks Smack! Good stuff! Stimulating!

Down


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## casey1999

smackdaddy said:


> No worries flood. Actually, I had the stopper knot thing happen to me and came within maybe 30 feet of being on the rocks.
> 
> Some friends had taken the boat out a week or two before and had, for whatever reason, _untied_ the knots in the jib sheets. I didn't check them before we went out. We got hit with a serious blast of wind in a very tight channel, wife lost the sheet in a tack, it pulled through the block and went in, and we started heading broadside to the rocks.
> 
> I grabbed the lazy sheet which had thankfully hung up and tried to get it around the winch so try to claw away...no luck. I pulled the lost sheet from the water - but was out of time. We had maybe another 30 seconds before things got crunchy.
> 
> Luckily the motor started first pull (which was never a given) and we clawed off.
> 
> I'm now pretty good at checking those knots (but I'm sure there's lots of other stuff I'm NOT checking - that I WILL be after it bites me).


On my jib sheets I tie them to a open base cleat near the sheet winch. Then if the sheet is lost off the winch it is a simple job to get it back on. Seems if I used a stopper knot the sheet would jam in the block and I might need to go on deck to get the sheet back. Am I missing somthing here?


----------



## therapy23

Can someone explain to me what happens when one is hove to with a parchute off the stern?

I am still baffled by this.

Thanks.


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## jackdale

casey1999 said:


> On my jib sheets I tie them to a open base cleat near the sheet winch. Then if the sheet is lost off the winch it is a simple job to get it back on. Seems if I used a stopper knot the sheet would jam in the block and I might need to go on deck to get the sheet back. Am I missing somthing here?


There is usually a turning block near the cockpit to ensure the angle of the sheet to the winch is correct. The stopper knot would prevent the sheet from going through that block. You should be able to reach the sheet from the cockpit.

Not a hijack, but in my experience the double overhand is a much better stopper than the figure 8.


----------



## smackdaddy

casey1999 said:


> On my jib sheets I tie them to a open base cleat near the sheet winch. Then if the sheet is lost off the winch it is a simple job to get it back on. Seems if I used a stopper knot the sheet would jam in the block and I might need to go on deck to get the sheet back. Am I missing somthing here?


I don't know. You're right, the stopper knot does hang in the block - and you have to draw in the line ahead of the block to bring the sheet back in (which means you need to head up to ease the pressure on the sail, which can be hard to do if you've lost the drive of the headsail, etc.). My biggest problem when I lost that sheet was that since it was not in the block, it was really hard to control over-wrapping with the winch. I couldn't trim.

(*One other thing...we used to only use the genny blocks on side deck tracks (directly to the winch). We do have turning blocks aft of the winches, but didn't really know how to use them at the time the above happened. With the turning blocks and a stopper knot, you still have plenty of line at the cockpit to work with as opposed to the sheet running out all the way to the genny block.)

So maybe your option is better if you have open cleats. Salts? Any tricks?


----------



## casey1999

jackdale said:


> There is usually a turning block near the cockpit to ensure the angle of the sheet to the winch is correct. The stopper knot would prevent the sheet from going through that block. You should be able to reach the sheet from the cockpit.
> 
> Not a hijack, but in my experience the double overhand is a much better stopper than the figure 8.


I have no turning block, the sheet can go directly to the winch at a proper angle.


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## misfits

What a good guy!
You could really see the fatigue setting in with the 3rd video.

Thanks for putting this up here

Bob


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## smackdaddy

casey1999 said:


> I have no turning block, the sheet can go directly to the winch at a proper angle.


Here's a photo that shows our block/primary set up...back when we were NOT using the turning blocks as you can see (i.e. - before I _finally_ figured it out this past summer after racing on another boat!).










You can see that if you run the sheet through that turning block, then have a stopper knot, you'll still have plenty of line to work with from the safety of the cockpit. Otherwise, you have to go forward to the genny block (probably the wrong name but whatever) to clear.


----------



## casey1999

smackdaddy said:


> Here's a photo that shows our block/primary set up...back when we were NOT using the turning blocks as you can see (i.e. - before I _finally_ figured it out this past summer after racing on another boat!).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can see that if you run the sheet through that turning block, then have a stopper knot, you'll still have plenty of line to work with from the safety of the cockpit. Otherwise, you have to go forward to the genny block (probably the wrong name but whatever) to clear.


That makes sense.


----------



## GeorgeB

Jack – I have a SS bucket that my dad picked up in Mexico. With a lanyard, it is very easy to scoop up water in almost any sea state. It’s great for collecting puke as well as washing out the cockpit/coaming/weather decks when victim can’t quite clear the side of the boat. It is readily accessible in a stern lazarette. When day sailing or harbor hopping, we make available the plastic lined wastepaper basket in the head. That way we can dispose of the puke on shore at the end of the day and it doesn’t stink up the cabin (very similar to your zip lock baggie method).

The big difference between us is we do not normally take out newbies so our risk of mal de mare is fairly low. Therefore, we do not have to issue baggies though we do have a couple of purloined airline barf bags onboard (mainly as jokes). My wife is especially good at spotting the signs of early onset sickness and we never have had a real accident down below. We’ve been pretty lucky insomuch we haven’t had any seasickness during the past ten years on the boat (touch wood). However, on one trip down the coast, the victim elected to bypass the bucket and wastepaper basket and proceeded to clog up the sink in the head. I was not able to work on the clog until we got down to Morrow Bay. Not much fun having a stinking head for a couple of days!


----------



## jameswilson29

BubbleheadMd said:


> ...That doesn't change the fact that your comments towards that woman were intentionally mean-spirited...


Sorry, Dude, did not mean to insult your wife...


----------



## LandLocked66c

smackdaddy said:


>


Have a look at those white caps! Was the drogue deployed?


----------



## vega1860

*Speaking of sleep deprivation...*

Damn! I stayed up 'til I was getting dingy last night on this thread. Now it looks like it will take me half the morning to catch up!

I subscribed to Drake's YouTube Channel last night. There are several lessons we all can learn from this video series and from this thread. I have not looked at all his stuff but I am sure it is worth watching. Thanks to Drake for letting us learn from his experiences and thanks to smackdaddy for starting this thread.


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## downeast450

I share Therapy's question RE: dragging a chute off the stern while hove to. It worked for him. I guess he was trying to slow down his progress. Seems like it might have been more effective rigged to a bridle to windward?

Down


----------



## NCC320

Smack....Thanks for posting

Drake....I think you did a great job. In handling the situation. And in being open enough to share the good and bad. It would be easy to have skipped your screw-ups and only presented the good stuff. That's what most people would do, but we arm chair sailors, newbies, and wantabes learn most from the screw-ups. As to screw-ups, we all make them...not checking out the windvane carefully before hand, not having stopper knots in sheets, not having a ditch bag ready, and having an accidental jib with preventer failure...were yours, but if we were all truthful, each of us have done similar things or worse.

In my opinion, you did the right thing to undertake the tow....yes, there was potential for damage and injury. But it would take a cold hearted person to leave a disabled vessel at sea, or put the other captain in the position that if he wanted rescue, he would have to lose/abandon his vessel. 

I looked at Drake's boat in the videos, and to me, it seemed well built and equipped, and well maintained and outfitted. Better than many that I see undertaking open water passages.

Cha Cha Skipper....something doesn't square here. Great glowing credentials, but undertakes a long open water passage with no money and in a boat in disrepair. The term "Big hat and no cattle" seems to fit him.

We Posters......For those of us who have been critical of Drake's actions, I wonder if we aren't in a state of self denial. Maybe we don't want to own up to the fact that fatique takes a massy toll when single handing for days around the clock and still believe we would keep a clear mind and be fully functional. Maybe we are saying to ourselves, Drake's difficulties come from errors that I don't make and that I would have done better in the situation. But aren't we kidding ourselves? And if we kid ourselves thus, we haven't learned a thing.


----------



## casey1999

NCC320 said:


> Smack....Thanks for posting
> I looked at Drake's boat in the videos, and to me, it seemed well built and equipped, and well maintained and outfitted. Better than many that I see undertaking open water passages.
> 
> Cha Cha Skipper....something doesn't square here. Great glowing credentials, but undertakes a long open water passage with no money and in a boat in disrepair.


I am also looking at the rest of Drake's you tube videos- they are great. Drake, thumbs up.

As for the Cha Cha, what were their plans- heading to Bermuda with no money- I understand that place is pretty expensive. How can you go cruising with no money?


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## LandLocked66c

I see drake lurking!


----------



## blowinstink

therapy23 said:


> Can someone explain to me what happens when one is hove to with a parchute off the stern?
> 
> I am still baffled by this.
> 
> Thanks.


I had the same question. I am not sure if hove-to accurately describes the way his vessel was riding (he mentions that he was traveling at 3kn -- and not DDW since he changed from NE drift to SW drift when he tacked). The severe heel also does not seem indicative of a boat heaving-to well. Maybe Drake will comment about that at some point . . ..

I want to add my thanks to Drake for posting the videos and to Smack for starting the thread. Drake's directness and honesty throughout the videos really makes them a pretty great contribution to the library of info available to noobs and dreamers. I recently returned from my first offshore trip (2up) during which we experienced a freakish number of the same issues which Drake faced. Well done. Thanks!


----------



## vega1860

jackdale said:


> That was Bermuda radio asking them to switch to their channel. Not unlike Victoria CG radio asking me to switch to 22A.


Yeah. Now that I am awake again


----------



## vega1860

therapy23 said:


> Can someone explain to me what happens when one is hove to with a parchute off the stern?
> 
> I am still baffled by this.
> 
> Thanks.


Not enough details to be certain, but it may have been necessary to keep the boat beam on to the wind while hove to. Otherwise, I haven't a clue.


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## vega1860

*Drakes apparently odd behavior*

It struck me, while watching the videos, that Drake's behavior - always laughing, giggling, smiling, joking etc. even when it may seem inappropriate, is what Hawaiians call "Lealea". :laugher


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## downeast450

Thanks to you Drake. Very thought provoking stuff.

down


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## tweitz

Chiming in: Even though Drake made a couple of mistakes I think he did an outstanding job and am quite grateful to him for posting this. It is a real picture of what happened, fatigue and mistakes and all. As for Cha-Cha's skipper, awful. I suspect what happened is the owner of Cha-Cha owed him money he did not have, gave the boat as settlement, and in that case you can bet the boat was not maintained. The captain then set sail for warmer waters with little plan and plenty of irresponsibilty. Someone said that there was no salvage because the captain did not abandon the boat. That is not how it works. It was not an abandoned vessel, but a rescuer still can look for salvage, and Drake would have had a very good case for salvage. The problem is that it is obvious the owner had no money to pay, and, while he could attach and sell the boat to pay a salvage judgment, it would take a long time and it is not clear how much you could realize for Cha-Cha. The mega yacht would also have a claim for salvage. Anyone who thinks you have to abandon a boat for the salvor to make a claim had better not accept a tow without negotiating beforehand.


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## tommays

It seems to me the BIG reason for his problems was helping Cha-Cha ?


----------



## neverknow

I looked up the West sail 42 in my Mauch's Sailboat guide and it says the Westsail 42' Disp is 31500LBS maybe this combined with the hull shape is the reason Drake never complained about CHA CHA pulling him all over the place as they came along side him.

Flipping through the book it's hard to find another 42 that weighs that much.








[/URL][/IMG]


----------



## GeorgeB

I got a couple of questions. From the video, Drake’s boat had a SSB radio antenna. Was the radio functioning? (Apparently, Cha Cha’s was not.) Isn’t there a scheduled radio net for Bermuda cruisers and why didn’t they go on that net immediately to find a more appropriate tow? What is make and HP of Drake’s engine? I got to believe that a Westsail of that vintage is going to be a bit underpowered for towing a boat weighing five tons (at least) more. Why didn’t Cha Cha deploy a drogue or at least some warps in order to check her speed while under tow? On Drake's boat, was the tow line attached to the drogue’s chain plates or was all the stress going to the boat’s mooring cleats? Call me heartless, but I’d never assume the responsibility of towing something that big and that far with me being a single hander. Scary enough encountering a close approach, let alone being tied a hundred feet from one! Besides, I’d never had an autohelm that didn’t “wander” from time to time especially in course mode. My hat's off to Drake, he is a true Samaritan.


----------



## tempest

On the Stopper knot thing. I always leave about 4 inches of line ( tail) after the knot on my sheets. That way if I lost the sheet and the knot goes to the fairlead I have something to grab on to, to pull it back.


----------



## jackdale

Tempest said:


> I always leave about 4 inches of line ( tail) after the knot on my sheets.


At least.


----------



## casey1999

GeorgeB said:


> Why didn't Cha Cha deploy a drogue or at least some warps in order to check her speed while under tow? On Drake's boat, was the tow line attached to the drogue's chain plates or was all the stress going to the boat's mooring cleats? Call me heartless, but I'd never assume the responsibility of towing something that big and that far with me being a single hander. My hat's off to Drake, he is a true Samaritan.


I was single handing my 34 when another similar size boat needed a tow into port (dead engine). I did not want to handle the tow lines and handle my boat at the same time so I told the disabled boat if you want a tow, I need one of your crew. One of the crew went into the water came aboard and I towed them in the short distance to the harbor with no problem. No where near the distance Drake towed.

I was also thinking maybe the Cha Cha could have used a drogue off to one side to maybe counter act the overtaking speed and the steering problem- may or may not help. Agree Drake a good samaritan.


----------



## jackdale

casey1999 said:


> I was also thinking maybe the Cha Cha could have used a drogue off to one side to maybe counter act the overtaking speed and the steering problem- may or may not help. Agree Drake a good samaritan.


I was thinking in the time that they were waiting for Paragon, Cha Cha could have been trouble shooting their steering issues.


----------



## casey1999

jackdale said:


> I was thinking in the time that they were waiting for Paragon, Cha Cha could have been trouble shooting their steering issues.


From what I saw and read about Cha Cha, trouble shooting is not in their vocabulary.


----------



## drakeParagon

Hi everyone!

Thank you so much for all of the wonderful comments! And thank you smackdaddy for starting this thread.

After arriving in Bermuda I was so exhausted, bruised, traumatized, and sad beyond words at the major damage to my boat and home... but most of all I remember feeling so alone as I went ashore and met no one who knew what I had been through.. For all the aloneness I felt then, I feel the polar opposite now and many many thanks. It's an honor and a privilege to be a part of this wonderful sailing and cruising community on SailNet.

At the time it was the most miserable experience, but today as I look back at all that has happened because of the towing and collision I'm so thankful. The damage to Paragon forced me to put off my plans to sail on to the Pacific and instead I had to limp back to the states for repairs. If it hadn't been for the collision then I wouldn't have spent the past 3 years in North Carolina repairing and renovating Paragon. Today I'm proud beyond words for all that we've done for her - she's stronger, faster, safer, more equipped, more beautiful, and so much more comfortable than ever. I never would met and made such good friends with Gail, the crew aboard Cha Cha. I might not have discovered how much I love making videos about living aboard and voyaging around the world. And I never would have met the most wonderful woman. Now Monique and I are preparing to sail all over the world aboard Paragon and can't wait to start posting our own "cruising life" videos on the drakeParagon's Channel - YouTube video channel. We plan to push off from North Carolina in the Spring, headed for Newfoundland, and stopping everywhere in between.
I read how many of you had questions about various scenarios in the 'NYC to Bermuda Nightmare' series. I will try to go through and answer any questions as best as I can. In the meantime I'm pasting in this story I wrote about it all for the Seven Seas Cruising Association's Commodores' Bulletin which I hope may be interesting and useful...
Thank you so much!
Fair winds, calm seas and happy sailing,
Drake
s/v 'Paragon' (Westsail 42) 
drakeParagon's Channel - YouTube
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SSCA Commodores' Bulletin, May 2011

Bermuda Nghtmare

My seven-day single-handed sail from New York City to Bermuda was difficult and eventful. I unexpectedly couldn't pick up Herb the weather router (South Bound II) on SSB and once again found myself sailing offshore without any way to get a weather report. Except for the time spent hove to, I never slept for more than 23 minutes between my three-minute "checking everything" routine. Most times I set the watch alarm for much less sleep time, and if I was worried about ships (which was often), then I'd set it for only three minutes.

Two days out on the rhumb line for Bermuda I hit my first snafu squall in the middle of the night. I'll never sail with a full main at night again! I was downwind with full main, jib and staysail when the preventer failed and the main jibed. I had a hard time furling the jib while trying not to jibe the main again, and then one of the jib sheets went in the water and got caught in the prop! I cut the jib sheet, finally got the jib furled and tried to furl the main. I lost the main halyard, and it went up and all came down. I tried to use the spinnaker halyard to raise a double-reefed main, but found it impossible to get it around the shrouds, jacklines and spreaders in the dark and ended up taking the main down completely. The prop was still spinning with a little jib line dangling off it. I almost turned back for New York City, but instead motor-sailed downwind with just a staysail up and decided to deal with the whole mess in the morning light. Thank God by then the seas had calmed. I was able to rig another jib sheet, got the main furled and continued on for Bermuda. I was so upset with myself for being so rusty. Stopper knots in the jib sheets and main halyard would have saved me from that whole mess.

A day later I hit a heavy-air storm. I don't know if it was the worst I've ever seen, but the winds were steady 35-45 knots, and at least six times I popped my head out the companionway to look at the wind speed indicator showing 50+ kn and as high as 56 kn. I spent two days hove-to with double-reefed main, backed staysail and a parachute drogue. I tried to reassure myself with knowing that I had just replaced all the chain plates, a cracked turnbuckle on the bobstay and had a full rig inspection and tuning. In the worst of the weather I was terrified to see the compression post under the mast constantly flexing out at the midpoint.

Was it supposed to do that!?!? I imagined the post breaking and the mast coming through the deck. I was perfectly hove-to and knew that there was nothing else to do but stay in my bunk. I spent much of that time imagining how wonderfully safe it would be to live in a cabin in the woods and spend my time growing a vegetable garden far away from ocean storms. I repeatedly told myself, "The storm will pass. The storm will pass." For food all I could manage was popping the lids off of cans of Progresso soup and drinking it all down cold over the galley sink before crawling back to my berth.

The storm passed. The only damage to Paragon was the loss of a deck vent dorade. I was completely exhausted. I got underway again with full jib, staysail and reefed main. A day-and-a-half later I heard a minute of static on VHF 16. I didn't think anything of it until realizing that the static was repeating every 20 minutes. Hours later I could barely make out a female voice over the static, "No steerage...no engine...need assistance...." They couldn't hear my hails at first, but hours later we made contact and I confirmed their position, 30 miles to my southeast, 150 miles from Bermuda. I adjusted course and pushed the engine to her safe limit. As I got closer the VHF reception improved.

Cha Cha was a 52', 40,000 lb, steel cutter-rigged sailing vessel with two 
aboard. She had been decimated by that storm. The captain hit his head badly and was just coming out of shock after 24 hours. They had no ability to raise sail. The outhaul for their in-mast furling mainsail had broken apart. Their enormous jib was completely torn to shreds. Their staysail roller furler had somehow seized, and they couldn't deploy it even with winches. They had left Newport bound for Bermuda with an engine that would overheat after five minutes of running. Their generator caught on fire. Their navigation lights shorted out. Their electric bilge and manual emergency bilge pumps broke, and they were bailing the cockpit and bilge with Tupperware containers. 
Their SSB was broken. They lost all steerage including breaking their emergency tiller, and their rudder was stuck steering them hard to port. They had no way to generate electricity. The woman told me that they had made contact with another sailing vessel, which decided it best to continue on to Bermuda to relay their distress situation to Bermuda Radio.

Six hours later I arrived on scene at the same time as the motor tanker Stenna Concept. The tanker was bound for Philadelphia, but had been rerouted by Bermuda Radio. The tanker was refusing the captain of Cha Cha's pleas for their boat to be lifted aboard with a crane and taken to Bermuda. There were only three options that I could see: the two aboard the sailing vessel Cha Cha could have abandoned ship and been taken aboard the motor tanker bound for Philadelphia. I could attempt to tow them the 150 miles to Bermuda. Or they could be left alone to await the next storm. I felt so sorry for them. It was hard for me to imagine someone losing such a big sailboat. I said I didn't know if it would be possible, but that I would be happy to attempt to tow them to Bermuda or until a more capable towing vessel could take over.

As the motor tanker circled us I rigged a bridle to 300' of 3/4" towline. I tied a light string to it and a weight to the end of that. I motored by and threw the weight over their deck. They retrieved the line and tied it to their bow. The captain of the tanker was very professional, helpful and kind on the radio. I told him that I had never done this before, and he said, "OK, now the most important thing is to go slow. You don't want the tow cable to ever be put under enough strain to break. The way we do it is to put the engine in slow forward for just a few seconds and then go into neutral. Wait a few seconds and then again in slow forward. Then neutral again. You have to increase your speed very gradually...."

I felt so privileged to be given instruction by the captain of such an enormous ship. We got underway at 1-3 knots in calm seas and the tanker stayed another hour before getting back on course for Philadelphia. The tanker relayed our situation and details to Bermuda Radio via satellite phone. He then told us that a cruise ship would be passing by our projected course in about 24 hours and would be on the lookout for us.

Cha Cha's rudder was stuck steering her hard to port. As I towed her she moved back and forth, between being directly behind me and 90 degrees to my port side. But we were making way in calm conditions. Unfortunately, I still needed to sleep! I told Cha Cha every time I closed my eyes, and they promised to keep a constant watch and to wake me with the VHF at the first sign of any trouble. As the winds came back 15-20kn I found it much better to motorsail with staysail and double-reefed main. After 35 hours of successful towing I asked about being reimbursed for fuel. Cha Cha's captain told me that they had no money and wouldn't be able to reimburse me for anything, which put me in an awful mood. I thought to myself, "We'll be there soon, and then I will be able to sleep soundly."

With only 25 miles to go, the conditions became adverse. Winds picked up to 20 knots out of the southeast, on the nose, and we were barely able to make way at all. At best we were being blown towards the reefs to the west of Bermuda, and I couldn't maintain any course to St. George's Harbor on the eastern side. Then in the pitch black of night, we collided badly. I was catnapping. Apparently they were asleep on Cha Cha too. Somehow our boats turned to face each other directly and Paragon's bowsprit ran down Cha Cha's starboard side, taking out all of Cha Cha's starboard side stanchions and lifelines. Then she hit Cha Cha's 10-hp outboard on the stern rail, breaking it and sending it overboard. I tried to use the engine in full throttle to get away from Cha Cha, but with the towline and sails causing problems, somehow Paragon came back around and rammed Cha Cha's port bow like a boxer in the ring throwing a knockout punch. I screamed, "Cut the line! Cut the line!" Gail aboard Cha Cha called a MAYDAY on the VHF. It looked as if Paragon's bow somehow got on top of Cha Cha's bow while I left the engine in full reverse and scrambled to get the mainsail down. My adrenaline hadn't been that high in years.

Cha Cha cut the towline, and I put safe distance between us. No one was hurt. We both drifted under bare poles. I wanted to cry when I saw the damage. Paragon's enormous stainless steel bowsprit was bent badly all over and in different directions.The thick steel attachment points to the bow sides were bent up by 20 degrees. The bobstay turnbuckle bolt was bent 20 degrees. I was worried about any of it failing and losing the mast and so tied a halyard to a bow cleat. Such misery!

We were in range of Bermuda Radio and reported everything. Throughout the night as Cha Cha drifted helplessly under bare poles, I motored circles around her as we waited for a towing vessel arranged by Bermuda Radio. In the morning we attempted several times to continue our towing, but soon gave up as the winds and seas and exhaustion made it too difficult to even get the towline across. Finally in the afternoon a 150' mega-yacht sailing vessel named Titan 14 arrived to continue towing Cha Cha, and I sped off for St. George's Harbor, praying to make it into the anchorage without any more problems and before dark.

This was one of the most difficult and nightmarish sailing experiences of my life. The damage to Paragon's bowsprit and rig forced me to put off plans for sailing on to the Pacific, and instead I had to limp back to North Carolina for repairs. Today I'm thankful beyond words for everything that happened. If I hadn't returned to the states then I wouldn't have met the most wonderful woman in the world! Now Monique and I are preparing to sail aboard Paragon on to the Pacific and around the world as many times as we can.


----------



## neverknow

Drake. I'd personal like to thank you for your input here on sailnet. You have no idea what stories likes yours means to ppl like us who are yrs away from living the dream.


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## svHyLyte

downeast450 said:


> I share Therapy's question RE: dragging a chute off the stern while hove to. It worked for him. I guess he was trying to slow down his progress. Seems like it might have been more effective rigged to a bridle to windward?
> 
> Down


If you listen to the audio, he was hove-too on a starboard tack but fore-reaching to the northeast at about three knots. By streaming the parachute drogue astern, he slowed the fore-reach. Presumably he also had pretty good seas and with that, absent the drogue, the yacht would have accelerated down the back of each wave, hastening his (disadvantaged) progress across the wind and risking a wipe-out and roll. Realizing he was headed into the wrong quadrant of the system, he "tacked" over and subsequently fore-reached to the south-west, taking him into the navigable quadrant. The drogue clearly slowed and stabilized the yacht. It is known as "Energy Management" and the young man clearly managed the situation and would have made an unremarkable passage, out of public view (and criticism), save for his efforts to assist Cha-Cha.

Why he did or did not do what the Monday Morning Quarter-backs here about think from the comfort of their chairs, he did well enough and acted charitably at his own, obvious, expense. (If I were going to create a recovery fund, it would be for the young man and not the rectum on Cha-Cha.)

With experience, one avoids mistakes. Unfortunately, one only gains experience by making mistakes (considering that one learns rather a great deal more by making a mistakes than not). Unfortunately, Experience is not inexpensive. The young man put no one at risk save himself on his journey and certainly comported himself admirably when others, no matter how undeserving, needed aid.

FWIW...


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## smackdaddy

drakeParagon said:


> Hi everyone!
> 
> Thank you so much for all of the wonderful comments! And thank you smackdaddy for starting this thread.


No worries dude. It's a pleasure.


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## mikieg

were there any pics of the damage to paragon? i m told that the westsail boats are tanks.


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## UncleJim

Drake, thanks for the updates. In an earlier post I criticized some of the presail judgment calls, your explanation and admission of being rusty would certainly account for all of those. Your handling of everything Murphy could throw at you attests to your skills as a sailor. As an admitted newbie I do appreciate your candidness so that we may Learn from your experience

While 'Drake and Monique' does not ring like 'Lin and Larry' I'm sure it will make a good read. Looking forward to some books as well as the videos


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## drakeParagon

Here are some pictures of the Paragon's damaged bowsprit and removing it....


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## drakeParagon

and installing the new bowsprit which I had made in California and shipped to me in North Carolina...


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## bljones

Now, THAT'S beef.


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## downeast450

sv,

Thanks for your interpretation of what was happening with the chute. I agree he did what was correct and it worked. Good on him. I learned a little more, too. I am appreciative of that. There are many lessons here for me. A great post.

Down


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## jameswilson29

Two more interesting aspects to Drake's ordeal are his concerns about the deck-stepped mast and the problems associated with his roller-furling jib during the storm.

Although the compression post survived its flexing during the storm, it appears he would have had greater peace of mind with a keel-stepped mast.

Again, we read about problems retracting a roller furling jib in heavy air, and all the associated problems it has caused. I seem to recall _Cha Cha's_ skipper experienced the same difficulty, leading to its roller-furling jib being ripped to shreds. I am still not convinced roller furling is the way to go offshore.

Both skippers would have likely been able to reduce sail area at the critical time more effectively and quickly by dropping a hanked-on jib to the deck and securing it, instead of having to contend with an uncooperative roller furling system.


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## Minnewaska

James, this is where "reef often and reef early" really comes into play. If you are ahead of the curve, either a hanked on or roller furler should be fine, with the later providing the ease of staying in the cockpit. 

But say you get just a little behind the curve....wind is picking up....you can still get the roller furler in.....but it would be uncomfortable going out on deck to reef a hanked on sail. I think you are more likely to get the reef in earlier with the furler. I think many take their chances to avoid being out on deck. In fact, Drake made some comments to that effect in his vid, which got him in trouble. It's also psychologically easier to reef a furler, as shaking it back out, if you're wrong, is a snap too.

The downside to furlers is the potential for the furling line to break or come undone or for the furler to jam. Although, that doesn't happen often with newer well maintained equipment.

I would also admit that a reefed jib on a furler can sometime be impossible to trim well. In snotty conditions, I don't really care that it may not perform perfectly, it's the flogging noises that just add to the stress. I find it worst if beating into the the wind coming from the side of sail that is furled, as the luff is blocked.


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## jzk

It seems that Drake was not as well prepared as he should have been for that first storm.

He should already know what to do with his boat and setup. And, he has to be ready to systematically take care of business despite the ruckus that is happening around him. And ruckus it will be.

All of the necessary changes could have been done from the comfort of his enclosed cockpit in a calm manner. Ease the main to let a bunch of air spill, then reef in the genoa, probably all the way in. Then drop the main halyard to the desired reef point, winch in the new clew, winch in the new tack, then bring the halyard back up. I would go for the genoa first as it will make the biggest difference. The main can handle a wider range of wind. Reefing during the night as a rule seems a bit extreme and maybe even silly. Having reefing lines run, however, is necessary. 

Our profurl has never had a problem in 10 years in this regard. We have reefed in in all kinds of wind including the 50+ knots storm in this years mac race at night. We, however, did not have reef lines run and were caught with full main. I was not about to send anyone forward to drop it (releasing the halyard would be futile alone). It was really not that hard to just let some wind spill as desired, and we were still racing. 12.6 knots under main alone is quite exciting. To be honest, I was just glad to get the chute down before destroying it. And, I can't imagine trying to argue a hanked on jib as more convenient than a profurl to reduce sail. But if it works, great. 

Not knocking Drake, he obviously went way beyond what most people would do to render assistance. But there should be some level of preparedness for shortening sail. And, it has to be doable when it is really piping up which definitely affects the decision making process. Same with the jordan series drogue. It sounds like conditions didn't really even warrant it. He would really need it in huge breaking waves. Then would he be ready to deploy it? Perhaps it was just his story telling style that made it sound like a comedy of errors. Easier said than done, of course, which is why this stuff needs to be practiced and well thought out in advance. When we were in the mac storm, once the genoa was reefed in all the way, the headstay began oscillating almost violently. I could have easily applied back stay (or called for someone to do so), but in the ruckus I didn't think of it. I was just trying to hold a course to not hit anything and hold on. And, it was scary. In those conditions it is very difficult just to communicate with the crew person right next to you.

Chacha not keeping the agreed upon watch is absolute recklessness. The cost of the repairs to Drakes vessel should come out of that boat.


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## Minnewaska

The skipper of Cha Cha is a parasite. I can't imagine how he sleeps at night.


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## jameswilson29

smackdaddy said:


> ...but there's only one way to gain the experience of how to deal with a storm.
> 
> So, who around here is going to _really_ practice and prepare...and walk that walk...intentionally?


Today's the day to practice your heavy weather sailing, Chesapeake sailors! Here's the NOAA offshore forecast:

"BALTIMORE CANYON TO HATTERAS CANYON OUT TO 36N 70W TO 34N 71W
400 AM EST FRI JAN 13 2012

GALE WARNING

TODAY
SW TO W WINDS 35 TO 45 KT DIMINISHING TO W 25 TO 35 KT.
SEAS 9 TO 15 FT BUILDING TO 11 TO 19 FT...EXCEPT W OF 1000 FM 6
TO 9 FT BUILDING TO 7 TO 11 FT...HIGHEST E. ISOLATED SHOWERS AND
TSTMS ENDING LATE."

...and for the lower Potomac River:

"Today...W winds 25 kt with gusts to 35 kt. Waves 3 ft."

High temps in the mid-40s. Sweet!


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## smackdaddy

jameswilson29 said:


> Two more interesting aspects to Drake's ordeal are his concerns about the deck-stepped mast and the problems associated with his roller-furling jib during the storm.
> 
> Although the compression post survived its flexing during the storm, it appears he would have had greater peace of mind with a keel-stepped mast.
> 
> Again, we read about problems retracting a roller furling jib in heavy air, and all the associated problems it has caused. I seem to recall _Cha Cha's_ skipper experienced the same difficulty, leading to its roller-furling jib being ripped to shreds. I am still not convinced roller furling is the way to go offshore.
> 
> Both skippers would have likely been able to reduce sail area at the critical time more effectively and quickly by dropping a hanked-on jib to the deck and securing it, instead of having to contend with an uncooperative roller furling system.


I have hank-on sails on my current boat. I'll have RF on my next boat. I don't want to be on the foredeck wrestling a sail when it's stinky unless I'm racing.

You bring up a point though that I was wondering about too...that is the heaving to in winds that high. Of course, I've never been in winds in excess of 50 knots (only up to 40 thus far...on a lake), so this is purely armchair analysis. But...

In reading Hal Roth's book about heavy weather sailing, his 4 "on-boat" tactics in the order of Beaufort magnitude are as follows:

1. Reefing sails (Force 6)
2. Heaving-to (Force 7)
3. Lying a-hull (Force 8)
4. Running off (Force 9)

Then you get into drogue/chute tactics.

It seems that having anything but a scrap of sail up in F9+ (which is what Drake faced) is going to put a tremendous amount of stress on the rig - unless you're actively running off. So maybe that's what caused the flex in the compression post? At 50+ knots, that's a hell of a lot of pressure. Still, the boat handled it.

Drake, have you yet deployed the JSD? Or is the chute your preference?

Here's a link to Jeanne Socrates' account of her knockdown off Cape Horn that covers some of this:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/seamanship/48237-heavy-weather-sailing-5.html#post698751

(PS - I'm probably going to be on of those guys that plays very conservative on Roth's tactics...like going for the JSD at F8, even though that may be overkill, and skipping the lying a-hull all together. I won't mind not making way in 50 knots.)


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## SlowButSteady

Minnewaska said:


> ...
> The downside to furlers is the potential for the furling line to break or come undone or for the furler to jam. Although, that doesn't happen often with newer well maintained equipment....


Also...Old or new, a rolled up jib/genoa still produces a lot of windage aloft exactly when one doesn't want a lot of windage aloft.


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## Ajax_MD

I'm not a hard-core purist, but so far, I can find no incentive to upgrade from hanks.


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## blowinstink

smackdaddy said:


> In reading Hal Roth's book about heavy weather sailing, his 4 "on-boat" tactics in the order of Beaufort magnitude are as follows:
> 
> 1. Reefing sails (Force 6)
> 2. Heaving-to (Force 7)
> 3. Lying a-hull (Force 8)
> 4. Running off (Force 9)
> 
> Then you get into drogue/chute tactics.
> 
> It seems that having anything but a scrap of sail up in F9+ (which is what Drake faced) is going to put a tremendous amount of stress on the rig - unless you're actively running off. So maybe that's what caused the flex in the compression post? At 50+ knots, that's a hell of a lot of pressure. Still, the boat handled it.


The Pardeys make a pretty strong case for never lying a hull and never running off. I believe that lying a hull has been broadly dismissed as a storm tactic (passive, puts the boat broadside to the seas exposed and vulnerable to being rolled). As for running off, we have all read accounts of boats sucessfully runnning off but the Pardeys argue compellingly (IMO) that it is the *failures* that should be examined and that boats which run off (and certainly those which lay a hull) are the ones which are damaged and do not survive storm conditions. As for when to heave to, they state as soon as you think of it, but also focus on the steepness of the waves rather than the wind speed (when the white horses become overhanging crests). They make a good case. I'll have to look at Roth again to compare (it has been a few years).


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## AdamLein

Minnewaska said:


> either a hanked on or roller furler should be fine, with the later providing the ease of staying in the cockpit.


Ditto for the former with a downhaul.



> it would be uncomfortable going out on deck to reef a hanked on sail.


I think we're talking about relative discomfort here. You can make the deck safe to work on, after all. The idea that you should arrange it so that you never have to go on deck in bad weather seems like wishful thinking to me. At some point you're gonna have to go, like when your furler jams with the sail out, so you might as well focus your effort instead on making it comfortable.



> that doesn't happen often with newer well maintained equipment.


I'm for strategies that minimize maintenance costs (both $ and effort).


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## smackdaddy

blowinstink said:


> The Pardeys make a pretty strong case for never lying a hull and never running off. I believe that lying a hull has been broadly dismissed as a storm tactic (passive, puts the boat broadside to the seas exposed and vulnerable to being rolled). As for running off, we have all read accounts of boats sucessfully runnning off but the Pardeys argue compellingly (IMO) that it is the *failures* that should be examined and that boats which run off (and certainly those which lay a hull) are the ones which are damaged and do not survive storm conditions. As for when to heave to, they state as soon as you think of it, but also focus on the steepness of the waves rather than the wind speed (when the white horses become overhanging crests). They make a good case. I'll have to look at Roth again to compare (it has been a few years).


I really liked the Roth book ("Handling Storms at Sea"). I've read pretty much all of these HWS books - and his is the best analysis of each technique that I've seen (judging purely as an interested reader).

Though Roth won't come out and say it in the book, the JSD is the pretty clear winner in the off-boat tactic category.

I'm always interested though in the thoughts of other dudes like Drake who have come through nasty conditions using their own techniques. Always lots to learn.


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## ccriders

There is an old thread here somewhere about the JSD vs a parachute drogue with adherents arguing the virtues of each. One poster commented on how much the JSD turned chaotic motion into a smooth sail and how the crew was able to get respite, rest and sleep while Mother Nature raged on. I see that as a major benefit when the going gets rough. 
The one significant storm I got caught in had no visibility, shallow water on one side and a shipping lane on the other (in the Deleware). My solution was to anchor where ships could not go. But the motion was so severe it was puke city for about 12 hours. Plus the concern of dragging anchor into too shallow water or into the shipping lane.
So it seems when weather gets beyond our ability to carry on and you have the sea space, deploying a JSD and going below for respite seems a viable plan.
Or what else does on do?
John


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## blowinstink

I don't have either, but I always think of the JSD as fancy warps -- to be trailed from the stern when you are running off and want to slow the boat to avoid a pitchpole / broach. The parachute wouldn't be used from the stern because it would slow you too much and expose you to breaking seas on the cockpit and companionway. Instead, you would deploy it off the bow quarter (the Pardeys run it with an adjustable bridle from the bow and either midships or the cockpit winch) with the goal of putting the boat in a hove to position bow 40-50' off the wind and drifting DDW. Can the JSD be used similarly?


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## jackdale

Drogues and sea anchors are also designed to be used with different hull shapes. I would trust a drogue with a traditional canoe stern / double ender with lots of flotation in the stern and small cockpit. A sea anchor is much more appropriate when you have a "modern" wide, open transom with a large cockpit. Getting pooped in the latter is a disaster.


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## AdamLein

jackdale said:


> Drogues and sea anchors are also designed to be used with different hull shapes. I would trust a drogue with a traditional canoe stern / double ender with lots of flotation in the stern and small cockpit. A sea anchor is much more appropriate when you have a "modern" wide, open transom with a large cockpit. Getting pooped in the latter is a disaster.


Good points. On the other hand, wouldn't a traditional hull form with a longer keel be more stable lying to a sea anchor?


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## casey1999

jameswilson29 said:


> Two more interesting aspects to Drake's ordeal are his concerns about the deck-stepped mast
> Although the compression post survived its flexing during the storm, it appears he would have had greater peace of mind with a keel-stepped mast.
> QUOTE]
> 
> Properly designed deck step mast should give equal performance as a keel stepped. Many boats that have sailed through the southern ocean have deck stepped mast, have done a 360 roll and not lost their mast.


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## casey1999

Can someone post the definition for:
1. Fore-Reaching
2. Lying a hull

I have heard different descriptions of these.
Regards


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## jackdale

casey1999 said:


> jameswilson29 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Two more interesting aspects to Drake's ordeal are his concerns about the deck-stepped mast
> Although the compression post survived its flexing during the storm, it appears he would have had greater peace of mind with a keel-stepped mast.
> QUOTE]
> 
> Properly designed deck step mast should give equal performance as a keel stepped. Many boats that have sailed through the southern ocean have deck stepped mast, have done a 360 roll and not lost their mast.
> 
> 
> 
> All or many of Bill Crealock's boats have compression posts. I also know that the Nauticat 37 has one as well, not sure about other Gustafson designs - he has strong views about design.
> 
> One thought is that if a deck step masted boats is dismasted the cabin roof will stay intact. On a keel stepped boat, it may be taken off.
Click to expand...


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## Minnewaska

I'm certainly not surprised that the differences of opinion remain on roller furling vs. traditional sails. Might as well debate anchors.

Since I've had both, by personal observation, I have been more likely to reef a furler than traditional sail. Same guy, same conditions. Whatever your physical condition or preparation, I believe this will apply.


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## Minnewaska

casey1999 said:


> Can someone post the definition for:
> 1. Fore-Reaching
> 2. Lying a hull
> 
> I have heard different descriptions of these.
> Regards


1. Forward movement while hove to
2. Just adrift with no sails or sea anchor


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## jackdale

AdamLein said:


> Good points. On the other hand, wouldn't a traditional hull form with a longer keel be more stable lying to a sea anchor?


I would also think so. Disclaimer - I never had to use either.

The sea anchor will essentially stop you with your bow into the wind or slightly off if you use a bridle.

The drogue will slow your progress.

As an aside - no one has mentioned pouring oil to windward when hove-to.


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## shanker

Wow!!

I've just finished the videos and reading all the posts. I started this about an hour before my work day and I just finished. 3 1/2 hours and I haven't done a stich of work today.

There have been many comments about this episode which I do not need to repeat. What intrigued me was how Drake took on the challenge of asisting Cha Cha. He had just survived a terrible ordeal, that lasted a couple of days. He was clearly, in the video at least, going down hill. Physically beat up, sleep deprived and mentally drained. Yet when the call came across the radio he reacted in such a way that tells me plenty about his character. At one point you can see it in his eyes; before he keys the mic, he knows what he is about to say will be greatly adding to his torcherous trip. At his lowest moment he does not waiver. He does the right thing. Again, this speaks volumes to me about the type of person he is. I think we would all be proud to call Drake a friend. Kudos to you Drake!

Thanks to Smack for posting this.

Drake, thank you. I have learned pleanty from your escapade that will stay with me. You mentioned that you also learned some personal things after that storm...good luck with them!

All the best!

Shanker.


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## Capt Len

A 31 ft tri lying to a bridled sea anchor north of Van Isle. Really heavy winter weather when the bridle chafed allowing the vessel to quickly come broadside and roll topside down.Two friends of mine and their dog spent several weeks in the hull until rescue by a passing fishboat Gotta watch that chafing, especially when it's real , not a test.


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## casey1999

jackdale said:


> casey1999 said:
> 
> 
> 
> All or many of Bill Crealock's boats have compression posts. I also know that the Nauticat 37 has one as well, not sure about other Gustafson designs - he has strong views about design.
> 
> One thought is that if a deck step masted boats is dismasted the cabin roof will stay intact. On a keel stepped boat, it may be taken off.
> 
> 
> 
> Both of the below described record breaking boats had deck stepped mast- as with anything, its all about proper design and build.
> 
> Jon Sanders was first man to circumnavigate Antarctica, circling the continent twice in 1981 - 1982. For this accomplishment, Gate 17 of the new Antarctica Cup Racetrack has been named after him, with sector 17 named after the S&S 34 monohull Perie Banou, the yacht he had used during the circumnavigation.[2] Sanders Gate is positioned mid-way round the Indian Ocean zone; the gate is close to where Sanders suffered an 180 degree knockdown. During the voyage, he passed south of the three great capes: Horn, Good Hope and Leeuwin, before rounding Cape Horn a second time. He turned north to Plymouth, UK and returning south around Good Hope and returning to Fremantle.[3]
> 
> This voyage was recognised in the Guinness Book of Records through the following records:
> 
> The first single-handed sailor to remain continuously at sea twice around the world
> First single-handed sailor to round the five southern most Capes twice on one voyage
> First single-handed sailor to round the five southern most Capes twice
> Longest distance continuously sailed by any yacht: 48,510 miles (78,070 km).
> Longest period alone at sea during a continuous voyage: 419 days: 22 hours: 10 minutes.
> 
> In 1986 Sanders set out again from Fremantle, and this time completed three solo non-stop circumnavigations aboard his 47-foot (14 m) yacht Parry Endeavour, rounding Saint Peter and Saint Paul Archipelago just north of the Equator each time to ensure that his course covered both hemispheres.
> Jon Sanders - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Click to expand...


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## killarney_sailor

*Parachute sea anchor and heave-to*



Minnewaska said:


> 1. Forward movement while hove to
> 2. Just adrift with no sails or sea anchor


Some comments:
- The Pardeys take on using a parachute sea anchor while hove-to is that it is virtually impossible to get a boat to not forereach, even if all sail is down. We have found that to be the case with our boat with no jib (other than rolled headsail) and a tiny amount of main (with inmast furling we have reduced sail to about 4' rolled out and flattened - our storm trysail is larger. We were still forereaching at close to 2 knots. This eliminates the ability of the boat to stay in the 'slick' created by the hull as it slides sideways, so exposes you to nastier waves. We have an 18' foot parachute sea anchor and all the gear for rigging it to a bridle. but have never used it. Even with the tripline I would imagine that it would be a great deal of work to get it back.

- Have talked to a few people who have used JSDs and they really like them. Have not talked to anyone who has actually used their parachute anchor in anger, but they are pretty commonly on cruising boats. This may be instructive. 

- We have hove-to quite a few times (with forereaching) and it does provide a reasonable amount of comfort.

- We have lied ahull once after being knocked down. Winds were F10 diminishing overnight to F8. After cleaning up the mess from the knockdown (and it was mainly cleaning and securing some broken items) we were really wiped and wanted to rest. Could not get the boat to behave while hove-to; thought we would try just lying there and it worked really well for the night and let us get some sleep. Had one wave really give us thumping (it certainly gets your attention), but we did not heel more than about 20° for ten seconds or so. I would feel ok with this approach again unless the waves were huge (25'+) or breaking.

- As for running-off, I know I am not the reincarnation of Moitessier and you need to be Superman like him to steer downwind in big wind and waves for very long at all. A storm that would require it is going to last for 12 hours or more I think and if you are cruising with a typical crew (1-4) it would be extremely doubtful that you could do it - assuming that you could even steer in those conditions which would be a challenge. A broach in 30' waves at 12 knots is not something to even think about.

- Finally, this is not a one-size-fits-all business. I don't think you can say in F8 you should always do this and F10 always do that. There are a lot of variables to consider: the characteristics of the boat, the number, skill, toughness and tiredness of the crew, the sea room you have, how long the storm has been storming - ie how high and regular the seas are, the direction you want to go in relation to the wind direction - probably missing some things that people can add but you get the idea.

- One other observation the force of the wind is relative to the square of the wind speed. The wind force at 50 knots is 4x that at 25 knots, not 2x. The power of the wind (and waves) is truly awe-inspiring and scary when you get much above 40 knots. I can't imagine what it would like at 70 knots - most we have had is mid 50s sustained and I would be really happy if we never get that 'opportunity- again.


----------



## jackdale

KS - great post.


----------



## sneuman

killarney_sailor said:


> Some comments:
> - As for running-off, I know I am not the reincarnation of Moitessier and you need to be Superman like him to steer downwind in big wind and waves for very long at all. A storm that would require it is going to last for 12 hours or more I think and if you are cruising with a typical crew (1-4) it would be extremely doubtful that you could do it - assuming that you could even steer in those conditions which would be a challenge. A broach in 30' waves at 12 knots is not something to even think about.
> 
> - Finally, this is not a one-size-fits-all business. I don't think you can say in F8 you should always do this and F10 always do that. There are a lot of variables to consider: the characteristics of the boat, the number, skill, toughness and tiredness of the crew, the sea room you have, how long the storm has been storming - ie how high and regular the seas are, the direction you want to go in relation to the wind direction - probably missing some things that people can add but you get the idea.


Hand steering is possible for awhile, but I agree that it's very difficult. Single-handed, I don't think it could be done for very long. But, there is a strategy, I discovered. Waves break intermittently and if you are running, you can actively steer for you ass to be perpendicular to a wave that breaks one wavelength back -- it won't break again until it passes you.

I agree that the boat and the fatigue of the crew are key. There does come a point where crew might be too exhausted to actively continue the fight. That's when you want a a wonderful, seaworthy keel and topsides under you.


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## captflood

GREETINGS EARTHLINGS, Are we all forgetting that all skipper's are resonsible to the integrity of there own vessel, Remember the saying safety first and me second one hand for yourself and the other for the boat. Drake Is one Sound Cookie And I'll buy him a beer, but as for the numptie who is sitting on cha cha need's to TANGO FOXTROT inland, and forget sailling ! It was becase of him others where put at risk, I hope that King Neptune is listening to all our posttings what goes round comes round GO SAFE.


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## eddie nelson

Hey captflood I was going to give you a Like but the" Greetings Earthlings " just freaks me out!


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## jameswilson29

That is when you know the thread is on its deathbed...(dammit, this used to be a good thread!)


----------



## casey1999

Nother question for the storm sailors:

What is the difference between "lying a hull" and "running with bare poles". I understand lying a hull is when you basically batten down the hatches and go below, pray, and wait out the storm basically doing nothing. 

Running with bare poles you are using the wind on the rig to push you down wind while you steer (or use windvane or auto pilot). But seems running with bare polls would be difficult since the following seas would be huge and the forces of the seas on your boat would overwelm the wind force on your rig and then your boat would go out of control. So how do you really control a boat while running with bare polls?


----------



## casey1999

chrisncate said:


> 'Sup Scott, how you been? I see your slumming today.. (from your usual forum), nice to see you here..
> 
> Great read so far regarding storm tactics btw, my only question is, is it ever appropriate to lie ahull as a storm tactic? I sure can't picture a scenario where that would be the preferable option. Seems like a bad idea to just leave it up to fate..
> 
> ?


Quite a few people have used that tactic- from books I've read from Jon Sanders and others. They have used it when conditions are to dangerous to be on deck and taking any kind of active management (large breaking waves sweeping the deck). Seems most boats using the tactic are in the 30 foot-40 foot range and can do a 180 degree knock down without damage, and hopefully keeping the mast up.


----------



## sneuman

Hey Chris,

Long time. You have to send me an update on the latest happenings with you.

Lying ahull? I wouldn't do it (and wouldn't have done it) if there were any other choice. Once the rig comes down and there's not even the windage of the mast to push you along, there's really not much else you could do. Even if I'd had a sea anchor, I am not sure it would have worked without at least a storm jib and trysail. That's just a guess though.

As for bare poles. Again in our case, the rig seemed to be dangerously compromised (it was), so keeping sail up would have proven a bad idea. As it turns out, it didn't really matter one way or the other. By even without the mast damage, I think bare poles would work with a drogue of some sort.

But, like I said, I don't think it's a one size fits all, so I am not sure how much you can generalize experience in one situation to another scenario -- somewhat, sure, but each storm/boat combination is going to be different.


----------



## casey1999

sneuman said:


> Hey Chris,
> 
> Long time. You have to send me an update on the latest happenings with you.
> 
> Lying ahull? I wouldn't do it (and wouldn't have done it) if there were any other choice. Once the rig comes down and there's not even the windage of the mast to push you along, there's really not much else you could do. Even if I'd had a sea anchor, I am not sure it would have worked without at least a storm jib and trysail. That's just a guess though.


Found a good link to Storm Tactics:
Heavy Weather
Now time to dive my hull for a cleaning then some sailing this long weekend-
Regards


----------



## casey1999

chrisncate said:


> Scary
> 
> I'm a believer in "the slick", and my hull shape is pretty good at heaving too. Never hove to in more than 25 knots (give or take). I'd prolly never give in to lying ahull, unless I was injured or there was some other factor. If waves are breaking, it's certainly the last thing I'd ever do.


Yea but think of this, look at all the boats that get left at sea (abandon by the crew because they thought the boat was unsafe or maybe someone was injured) and later the boat is found in near perfect condition. The boat survived on its own basically lying a hull. Most boats are probably stronger than the crew and may do better in a storm (assuming all sails are taken down) on their own than with actions from the crew.


----------



## chrisncate

sneuman said:


> Hey Chris,
> 
> Long time. You have to send me an update on the latest happenings with you.


Ditto, I'll shoot you a pm sometime this evening (heading out after this post). You wouldn't recognize her (or prolly us) anymore btw, we really went a lot farther than we had planned.. almost done, too..


----------



## killarney_sailor

*lying ahull and running bare poles*



casey1999 said:


> Nother question for the storm sailors:
> 
> What is the difference between "lying a hull" and "running with bare poles". I understand lying a hull is when you basically batten down the hatches and go below, pray, and wait out the storm basically doing nothing.
> 
> Running with bare poles you are using the wind on the rig to push you down wind while you steer (or use windvane or auto pilot). But seems running with bare polls would be difficult since the following seas would be huge and the forces of the seas on your boat would overwelm the wind force on your rig and then your boat would go out of control. So how do you really control a boat while running with bare polls?


Running with bare poles means sailing with no sail up. I seem to remember that Moitessier's approach was to have sail up (forward I assume) so that you would faster and hence have a greater ability to control the boat. So running with bare poles is really just a version of running off.

I mentioned that we did lie-ahull but it was not in survival conditions for sure. By the time we got to trying that it was blowing around 45 knots and decreasing and the waves were not too big - maybe 15' or so. In those conditions we were very pleased with the results, but we are extremely confident in our boat. It is an excellent capsize ratio and it is built like a tank with a very strong, simple rig. One can never know, but I would be very surprised if we lost the rig if we got rolled - don't want to test the hyothesis though.


----------



## casey1999

chrisncate said:


> Good point, but I'd still never do it... would you?


My boat is the same as what Jon Sanders used for a non stop double circum-navigation. It worked for him so in real survial conditions, I would go for it. Lie a hull may be safer than being on deck and rolled 360 degrees, below deck you have a chance, and even if active sailing in a small boat, you could still easily get rolled or 180 degree knock down in real survial conditions.

One thought, why do we always hear using drogues and sea anchors on sail boats? What do small, medium or large commercial fishing or merchant ships do? There are a lot of these ships out there in the 100 to 150 foot range that need to deal with these storms.


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## Capt Len

Fish boats just motor slow and take it on the chin. It's called dodging .If it gets real bad you die.The book 'Posted Missing 'has some interesting examples you wouldn't want to see first hand.


----------



## Dean101

casey1999 said:


> Yea but think of this, look at all the boats that get left at sea (abandon by the crew because they thought the boat was unsafe or maybe someone was injured) and later the boat is found in near perfect condition. The boat survived on its own basically lying a hull. Most boats are probably stronger than the crew and may do better in a storm (assuming all sails are taken down) on their own than with actions from the crew.


I partially agree with you on this Casey. I'm sure that many boats are abandoned before they are in danger of sinking and I'm also sure that as long as a huge wave doesn't break on the boat it will probably survive. It seems to me though, that if you just batten down the hatches and leave the boat to fend for itself, you run the risk of it turning beam on to the sea, which would not be good. And I'm not so sure you would be any safer inside the boat rather than on deck in case of a rollover or even a knockdown.

I watched a video that was posted on another thread where they rigged up the interior of a typical cruising boat with gear that would normally be carried. They even put crash dummies and video cameras inside the cabin to capture the action. They ran straps under the hull and then proceeded to roll the boat steadily over until it rolled 360 degrees. it was total chaos inside as things fell out of shelved and dropped across the cabin! I would NOT have wanted to be inside that thing. This was dockside in a controlled environment. I could only imagine the injuries you could sustain in an actual rollover during a violent storm. That video is on youtube.

With that said, I finally got my copy of the Pardey's book "Storm Tactics" and have made it to chapter 5 so far. They tend to look at lying ahull as a chancy and potentially dangerous thing and seem to favor heaving-to and add a para anchor with adjustable bridle when it really gets nasty. They say heaving-to creates a "slick" of disturbed water as the hull, pointing around 50 degrees off the wind, makes slow leeway as Chrisncate referred to. I've never experienced it but apparently this slick reduces much of the waves strength. They make several observations of waves breaking fore and aft of their boat but not on the boat.

Even disregarding the Pardeys experience, in my own opinion I would not want to trust to blind luck. At the least, I would want to deploy a sea anchor to keep my bow to the waves if it got that bad. After reading what little that I have of their ideas so far, they make sense and would be good tricks to have up your sleeve. I do think that several poster's have the right idea when they say that every boat/crew, wind, and wave combination is different.

Regards


----------



## jackdale

Dean

I just posted a link to the Yachting Monthly videos to which you referred.

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/general-discussion-sailing-related/82683-ever-wonder.html#post816551

Great minds ....


----------



## Dean101

jackdale said:


> Dean
> 
> I just posted a link to the Yachting Monthly videos to which you referred.
> 
> http://www.sailnet.com/forums/general-discussion-sailing-related/82683-ever-wonder.html#post816551
> 
> Great minds ....


Thanks for that post Jackdale. I hadn't seen the other ones but they are real eye openers. This is the one I was refering to...

Yachting Monthly's Crash Test Boat Capsize - YouTube

It's a link to the one I watched on youtube, which is part of the series that you posted. I really couldn't imagine the violence that would happen inside the cabin had that test been done during the dynamics of a violent storm. I can't recall if it was during a rollover, broach, or pitchpole but in the Pardey's book, Lin Pardey was thrown out of her bunk and noticed as she was getting up that she had left indentations of her teeth in the woodwork.

Scary stuff...


----------



## SlowButSteady

BubbleheadMd said:


> I'm not a hard-core purist, but so far, I can find no incentive to upgrade from hanks.


My first boat had a hanked-on jib, and I always wanted a roller-furler. My current boat has a roller-furler, and I sorta wish it hand hanks instead.

As long as a furler works, it's great. When it doesn't, it's a pain in the a$$ (and a potential disaster). If I had an off-shore boat I think I would definitely rig it with hanked foresails. But, since I don't, I'll just use what I have until it breaks or wears out, and then switch to hanks (and probably start wishing I had a furler again).


----------



## chall03

smackdaddy said:


> No worries flood. Actually, I had the stopper knot thing happen to me and came within maybe 30 feet of being on the rocks.
> 
> Some friends had taken the boat out a week or two before and had, for whatever reason, _untied_ the knots in the jib sheets. I didn't check them before we went out. We got hit with a serious blast of wind in a very tight channel, wife lost the sheet in a tack, it pulled through the block and went in, and we started heading broadside to the rocks.
> 
> I grabbed the lazy sheet which had thankfully hung up and tried to get it around the winch so try to claw away...no luck. I pulled the lost sheet from the water - but was out of time. We had maybe another 30 seconds before things got crunchy.
> 
> Luckily the motor started first pull (which was never a given) and we clawed off.
> 
> I'm now pretty good at checking those knots (but I'm sure there's lots of other stuff I'm NOT checking - that I WILL be after it bites me).


Maybe I should post this in the cruising with kids thread......
.......but for what it's worth we discovered recently that 11 month old babies find untying figure 8's very amusing.

In a squall off bundy we however were not particularly amused when a jibsheet slipped through the block in 35+ knots.

We no longer use figure 8's for stopper knots


----------



## drakeParagon

jackdale said:


> That was Bermuda radio asking them to switch to their channel. Not unlike Victoria CG radio asking me to switch to 22A.


Hi Jack,

Bermuda Harbor Radio kept me on channel 16 throughout the entire towing situation. They never asked me to switch to their working frequency, but rather cleared 16 of all other traffic so that Paragon, Titan 14, and Cha Cha could talk without having to switch, and so that they could stay tuned into our situation who whole time.

With their powerful VHF Bermuda Harbor Radio could hear and converse with many of other boats on VHF 16 that were too far away for me to pick up. In the video they're actually telling another vessel entering Bermuda waters to switch to channel 27 for the checking in procedure...

This makes me want to make another video which shows Bermuda Harbor Radio calling me on channel 16 throughout the night at regular intervals and having long conversations with me to make sure that I was ok... I have the greatest respect, admiration and appreciation of Bermuda Harbor Radio - I think those guys are the elite - incredibly aware, professional, efficient, and beyond helpful.. they're at the ready to handle any kind of emergency situation in Bermuda waters - just another day for them.

I think that one sure way to figure out if someone has experience with offshore sailing is by seeing how they use the radio... things like saying "Over and out" every time instead of just "over"... or like never responding to a request to switch to channel X by saying "switching to X" before they actually do it.... It seemed so bizarre when I had to explain this stuff on the VHF to someone who had a captain's license and was in command of a 52 foot boat.. 

It makes me realize that having a captain's license doesn't mean that the person knows much about offshore sailing.... before I left NYC and was talking about my preparations and watch schedule with a person who had a captain's license.. He told me that he didn't understand why I just didn't just drop my anchor every night and sleep for the night on my way to Bermuda... I confirmed that it wasn't a misunderstanding. He didn't know that the water gets deeper away from land...


----------



## -OvO-

> He didn't know that the water gets deeper away from land.


Unbelievable. That disturbs me more than the eighteen year-old I met who didn't know what an ear of corn was.


----------



## drakeParagon

smackdaddy said:


> It seems that having anything but a scrap of sail up in F9+ (which is what Drake faced) is going to put a tremendous amount of stress on the rig - unless you're actively running off. So maybe that's what caused the flex in the compression post? At 50+ knots, that's a hell of a lot of pressure. Still, the boat handled it.
> 
> Drake, have you yet deployed the JSD? Or is the chute your preference?


Hi Smackdaddy,

I'm certainly no expert on heaving to and would really appreciate to learn more from those who have actually done it storms, especially if their boats are full keel like mine...

On my Westail 32 and 42, I've always used a trysail or double reefed main with a backed staysail when heaving to. I'll never forget being hove to aboard my Westsail 32 in steady winds of 50+ knots and sitting on the windward side and watching the slick...It was bright sunlight out and I could see this slick and how it was buffeting the waves, but it always seemed that we were still moving forward too fast, getting too far ahead of the slick.. My objective has always been to put that slick between me and where the crashing waves were coming from. So I felt that I needed to slow our motion forward, thus I felt that anything I could drag off the stern to slow us down would be good.

A few times I tried to heave to as advised by Lin and Larry Pardey, by putting the parachute on an adjustable bridal between the windward bow cleat and windward jib sheet winch... But I just couldn't get it to seem to be effective that way.. My hove to boat was moving forward much faster than it was moving sideways so the parachute ended up going straight aft anyway.. The bridal didn't seem to work... I thought that maybe the Pardey's wooden boat just heaves to differently than my Westsail 32.. My boat was much much heavier...

I've completely destroyed a couple of military parachutes hove to in storms. Both times when I retrieved them they were torn to shreds.

I'd heard great things about the Jordan Series Drogue so when I saw it on sale in the used marine consignment store I had to try it. I've deployed it twice in non storm conditions as a test. I found that even in the calmest of conditions the tension put on the drogue was as if I was towing an aircraft carrier.. Even with hardly any movement forward I had to use the jib sheet winch to pull it all in, which takes half an hour..

I've since moved the JSD to a bag permanently mounted on the stern rail to make deploying it as easy and efficient as possible...

Thank you so much for starting this thread. I never read much or participated in discussion forums before.. I can't believe what I've been missing!

Drake


----------



## Dean101

drakeParagon said:


> Hi Smackdaddy,
> 
> I'm certainly no expert on heaving to and would really appreciate to learn more from those who have actually done it storms, especially if their boats are full keel like mine...
> 
> On my Westail 32 and 42, I've always used a trysail or double reefed main with a backed staysail when heaving to. I'll never forget being hove to aboard my Westsail 32 in steady winds of 50+ knots and sitting on the windward side and watching the slick...It was bright sunlight out and I could see this slick and how it was buffeting the waves, but it always seemed that we were still moving forward too fast, getting too far ahead of the slick.. My objective has always been to put that slick between me and where the crashing waves were coming from. So I felt that I needed to slow our motion forward, thus I felt that anything I could drag off the stern to slow us down would be good.
> 
> A few times I tried to heave to as advised by Lin and Larry Pardey, by putting the parachute on an adjustable bridal between the windward bow cleat and windward jib sheet winch... But I just couldn't get it to seem to be effective that way.. My hove to boat was moving forward much faster than it was moving sideways so the parachute ended up going straight aft anyway.. The bridal didn't seem to work... I thought that maybe the Pardey's wooden boat just heaves to differently than my Westsail 32.. My boat was much much heavier...
> 
> I've completely destroyed a couple of military parachutes hove to in storms. Both times when I retrieved them they were torn to shreds.
> 
> I'd heard great things about the Jordan Series Drogue so when I saw it on sale in the used marine consignment store I had to try it. I've deployed it twice in non storm conditions as a test. I found that even in the calmest of conditions the tension put on the drogue was as if I was towing an aircraft carrier.. Even with hardly any movement forward I had to use the jib sheet winch to pull it all in, which takes half an hour..
> 
> I've since moved the JSD to a bag permanently mounted on the stern rail to make deploying it as easy and efficient as possible...
> 
> Thank you so much for starting this thread. I never read much or participated in discussion forums before.. I can't believe what I've been missing!
> 
> Drake


Hi Drake! Impressive voyage by the way and I loved your videos. I was wondering about your sail configuration when you tried the Pardeys method of heaving-to. I'm in the process of reading their book now and have yet to get completely through it but the drawings they use show them under reefed main or storm sail only with no headsail. Did you try dropping your staysail when using the parachute to further reduce the forward drive of your sail configuration?

About the parachute anchors, do you think that the parachutes you blew out could have been too small for the displacement of your boat? They mention going to a 12' chute when they started cruising their larger boat but found it was too large and went back to the 8' chute. With the JSD, did the winch do any damage to the cones when you brought it back aboard?

Thanks again for sharing your experiences and happy adventuring!


----------



## smackdaddy

No worries Drake. This thread is what forums are all about in my opinion...newbs and salts just talking about sailing. As you can see, Sailnet is a great place for that.

As for heavy weather technique, here is one of the best threads I've come across:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/seamanship/48237-heavy-weather-sailing.html

Lin and Larry Pardey have posted in that thread - as well as many others that know their stuff.

I was pretty skeptical about the JSD early on because of the chance of getting pooped - and potentially damaging the rudder with a wave strike at the stern. But almost all the stories I've come across (including the stuff in Roth's book, Jeanne Socrates' account with her knockdown/recovery off Cape Horn, etc.) have been nothing but positive.

Here's a rather longwinded post from that HWS thread that goes over some technique Roth recommends and ends with a pretty cool idea on retrieval:



smackdaddy said:


> Okay, so back to the JSD. As I said, I've been reading the Hal Roth book mentioned above and it has some very interesting (and complimentary) takes on the JSD.
> 
> As for the "you only deploy under bare poles" dictum above, this seems to not be so cut and dried according to the experts. So be careful. For example, Roth cites numerous examples where boats deployed the JSD while running with a headsail to maintain directional stability. One example of this was _Egress II_, a Discovery 42 that was caught in a 5-day Force 10 storm near Tonga. They kept the headsail up as they deployed, then doused it shortly after. They did fine. Then you also have Jeanne's mention of Tony Gooch who said:
> 
> _*He told me that before he deploys it he could well be running under a headsail (probably staysail) alone. *_
> 
> And, though most of the examples of the JSD usage on the JSD website mention that those boats were, in fact, running under bare poles at deployment, it does not seem to be any kind of "requirement", or even recommendation, in the actual instructions for launch:
> 
> Jordan Series Drogue - Launching and Retrieval
> 
> _*One of the design objectives of the drogue is that it may be launched with one hand under storm conditions without leaving the cockpit and that it will not foul even if the boat is rolling or yawing. This capability has convincingly been confirmed as described in Performance at Sea.
> 
> To prepare for instant launching, the drogue is faked down with the bridle end at the bottom of the bag and the bridle legs led up the sides and fastened to the attachments at the corners of the transom. The weight (chain) is at the top of the bag.
> 
> To launch the drogue, the chain is dropped overboard and the drogue permitted to feed out. Within a few minutes, the drogue will gently take hold with no abrupt deceleration.
> 
> Through many launchings the drogue has never fouled. In fact, this launching capability has probably saved the lives of a number of sailors. *_
> 
> So what's the big deal about bare-poles- or sail-up-deployment? According to Roth, it's all about the design of the boat and the timing of the deployment (i.e. - the conditions). His 4 "on-boat" tactics in order are as follows:
> 
> 1. Reefing sails (Force 6)
> 2. Heaving-to (Force 7)
> 3. Lying a-hull (Force 8)
> 4. Running off (Force 9)
> 
> So in his method, bare poles come third. But he cautions that this method can be dangerous depending on the design of the boat, its windage, and the conditions (e.g. - it's easy to get beam-on to the waves). He uses the _Banjo_ disaster as an example of how things can go bad lying a-hull. He also mentions that you can get a great deal of roll, making for a very uncomfortable ride.
> 
> Then comes 4 - Running off, at Force 9, which is pre-deployment of the JSD. He talks at length about using the sails (specifically the headsail) to help the boat maintain directional control:
> 
> *In strong winds, a tiny hanked jib or staysail up forward will help the yacht stay on course. If the boat is still overpowered, try dropping most of the sail and show just the head.*
> 
> So, it's clear that as conditions build, Roth recommends going from bare poles at Force 8 (to lie a-hull), to showing a bit of headsail to start running as conditions go to Force 9. Then if you have too much speed as conditions build to upper Force 9, lower Force 10 - he says you go to bare poles. It's this middle ground between lying a-hull and running under bare poles that can be the most dangerous in terms of a wave strike....unless you gain the downwind momentum through use of some sail.
> 
> Therefore, it all comes down to the timing of when you actually drop the JSD chain over the side. On the one hand, according to the examples, you can deploy it a little earlier (while running with a headsail but before you go to bare poles), or you can deploy it a little later (after you've doused all sail and are running too fast under bare poles). Both have been done successfully as shown in these many examples. Clearly, neither technique is "wrong".
> 
> Now let's look at Jeanne's case...
> 
> She was basically at Roth's step 2 with conditions building from Force 7 to Force 8. Also, bear in mind that this is the southern ocean off Cape Horn, where seas can be way crazier than localized conditions. The critical issue here, according to Roth, is that, again depending on the boat, you'll not be able to effectively run off under bare poles until the wind has built considerably. And depending on sea conditions, lying a-hull can be one of the most dangerous techniques.
> 
> So, Jeanne opts to skip step 3 and prepares to quickly deploy the JSD (i.e. - earlier in the process rather than later). The chain is secure for the existing conditions:
> 
> *With the boat upright, even well-heeled, I made sure the chain stayed put without a problem.*
> 
> She's waiting for the right time to move from step 2 to step 4 for deployment when she's_ struck by a wave and knocked down_. The boat is now no longer "upright" - it's mayhem. During the knockdown (which happens while she's hove to) the prepped JSD deploys. Note that from that point on, she has no further knockdowns or serious danger, counter to what has been implied above. Obviously, its quite the opposite.
> 
> _Not knowing the JSD has deployed_, she tries to immediately move to step 4 and head downwind and drop the chain. Yet the mainsail won't fully douse - and as she tries to let out some more headsail to move downwind, the furling line breaks and the sail unfurls and flogs, so she has to douse it.
> 
> For a while, the remaining mainsail fights with the JSD which she now notices has already deployed. And though this would have been the point she would have actually dropped the chain over the side as would be the "proper order", she's fine, the boat's fine, it's all good. She sets the AP and goes to sleep.
> 
> The point is that it's all a matter of timing and situational judgment in horrific conditions far more than a matter of "strict technique". In fact, she was following the "proper technique" (per Hal Roth) for the existing conditions. And she had all the right equipment prepared and readied. What interfered with all this was a freakin' wave strike off Cape Horn (where "rookies" rarely survive) which resulted in a knockdown - which broke a lot of stuff on the boat (lines, cars, poles, etc.) - and which washed the chain and/or the body of the prepped JSD overboard. That's really the bottom line here IMUSO (in my usually superior opinion).
> 
> Jeanne sails very big. Jeanne handled a knockdown off Cape Horn, which even Hal Roth will acknowledge, requires serious seamanship. Jeanne rocks. She has earned respect.
> 
> End of story.
> 
> +++++++++++++++++++++++
> 
> One other interesting thing from Roth's book is a pretty cool retrieval idea for the JSD (retrieval being its Achilles' Heel). Check this out...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The question he has is how the windlass would handle the cones. So who knows? But it's the coolest idea I've seen in a while. Anyone want to test it?
> 
> In the mean time, you really should read Roth's book.


----------



## Minnewaska

Drake, welcome aboard. Your vids are a great escape for a winter on the hard. Thank you.

Looking at Hal Roth's idea on getting the drogue off the bow for retrieval, I wonder if you could set the autopilot and motor into it, while pulling it all up on the foredeck? I wouldnt want to do that by backing into it, for fear of fouling the prop. From the bow, you would think you could get back to neutral in time, if you began to run it over.


----------



## Deric

Thank you, Drake.

Your contribution to the sailing community is appreciated. You help those in trouble at sea, and help others who have not yet been to sea.

A very giving person you are.

Thank you for sharing, and teaching me many lessons of sailing, life, and the human spirit.

I salute you.
Deric


----------



## drakeParagon

Dean101 said:


> I was wondering about your sail configuration when you tried the Pardeys method of heaving-to. I'm in the process of reading their book now and have yet to get completely through it but the drawings they use show them under reefed main or storm sail only with no headsail. Did you try dropping your staysail when using the parachute to further reduce the forward drive of your sail configuration?
> 
> About the parachute anchors, do you think that the parachutes you blew out could have been too small for the displacement of your boat? They mention going to a 12' chute when they started cruising their larger boat but found it was too large and went back to the 8' chute. With the JSD, did the winch do any damage to the cones when you brought it back aboard?
> 
> Thanks again for sharing your experiences and happy adventuring!


Hi Dean101,

Thank you! My impression was always that my Westsail 32 was hove to better with the backed staysail... I also remember that she would ride much smoother with the staysail backed as much as possible.. I even ended up using a 3 part purchase block and tackle between the staysail clew and a stanchion base to bring the staysail as close to windward as possible.. but that's just my experience with my particular boat.. not necessarily what I'd recommend on other boats..

I'm not sure if having a bigger or smaller parachute would have a made a difference.. I think that the construction was just too light... With military surplus parachutes I also worry that they parachute might just collapse and get fouled in the water without me realizing it... That did happen to me once..

Just before I sold my Westsail 32 I purchased a Gale Rider drogue made mostly of webbing and was impressed by how good the construction seemed. I couldn't imagine it being ripped apart or getting fouled.. But I never got to use it..

It was really hard to not damage the JSD cones in the jib sheet winch when retrieving it, and i did end up having to sew quite a few of them back together.. I'm awestruck by HAL Roth's JSD Retrieval idea that I see in smackdaddy's last post here... I can't imagine that the cones could get damaged in my anchor bow roller or windlass.. WICKED COOL!!!  How come I never thought of that?!? Wow!!!

Drake


----------



## drakeParagon

smackdaddy said:


> As for heavy weather technique, here is one of the best threads I've come across:
> 
> http://www.sailnet.com/forums/seamanship/48237-heavy-weather-sailing.html
> 
> Lin and Larry Pardey have posted in that thread - as well as many others that know their stuff.
> 
> I was pretty skeptical about the JSD early on because of the chance of getting pooped - and potentially damaging the rudder with a wave strike at the stern. But almost all the stories I've come across (including the stuff in Roth's book, Jeanne Socrates' account with her knockdown/recovery off Cape Horn, etc.) have been nothing but positive.
> 
> Here's a rather longwinded post from that HWS thread that goes over some technique Roth recommends and ends with a pretty cool idea on retrieval:


I'm just AWESTRUCK by Hal Roth's JSD retrieval idea! WOW! Why didn't I ever think of something like that!?!?! Fantastic! And I'm really looking forward to reading all that thread on heavy weather sailing techniques. Thanks smackdaddy!


----------



## drakeParagon

Minnewaska said:


> Drake, welcome aboard. Your vids are a great escape for a winter on the hard. Thank you.
> 
> Looking at Hal Roth's idea on getting the drogue off the bow for retrieval, I wonder if you could set the autopilot and motor into it, while pulling it all up on the foredeck? I wouldnt want to do that by backing into it, for fear of fouling the prop. From the bow, you would think you could get back to neutral in time, if you began to run it over.


Hi Minnewaska, I'm really looking forward to trying Hal Roth's JSD retrieval idea. After half and hour of hand cranking the JSD in on the jib sheet winch a couple of times it's really exciting to think of using my electric Lighthouse windlass to bring it in instead! And maybe the engine would help too. Very exciting!


----------



## Dean101

drakeParagon said:


> Hi Dean101,
> 
> Thank you! My impression was always that my Westsail 32 was hove to better with the backed staysail... I also remember that she would ride much smoother with the staysail backed as much as possible.. I even ended up using a 3 part purchase block and tackle between the staysail clew and a stanchion base to bring the staysail as close to windward as possible.. but that's just my experience with my particular boat.. not necessarily what I'd recommend on other boats..
> 
> I'm not sure if having a bigger or smaller parachute would have a made a difference.. I think that the construction was just too light... With military surplus parachutes I also worry that they parachute might just collapse and get fouled in the water without me realizing it... That did happen to me once..
> 
> Just before I sold my Westsail 32 I purchased a Gale Rider drogue made mostly of webbing and was impressed by how good the construction seemed. I couldn't imagine it being ripped apart or getting fouled.. But I never got to use it..
> 
> It was really hard to not damage the JSD cones in the jib sheet winch when retrieving it, and i did end up having to sew quite a few of them back together.. I'm awestruck by HAL Roth's JSD Retrieval idea that I see in smackdaddy's last post here... I can't imagine that the cones could get damaged in my anchor bow roller or windlass.. WICKED COOL!!!  How come I never thought of that?!? Wow!!!
> 
> Drake


Thanks for the info Drake. Good info to know.

Isn't it amazing how much you can learn on these forums, no matter what your experience level? Sometimes the discussions get a little heated or attitudes turn ugly, but overall, I've read a LOT of great ideas and different techniques on here that I can adopt for my own use. Maybe one day, with some experience under my belt, I can pay it forward.

Take care!


----------



## smackdaddy

Dean101 said:


> Thanks for the info Drake. Good info to know.
> 
> Isn't it amazing how much you can learn on these forums, no matter what your experience level? Sometimes the discussions get a little heated or attitudes turn ugly, but overall, I've read a LOT of great ideas and different techniques on here that I can adopt for my own use. Maybe one day, with some experience under my belt, I can pay it forward.
> 
> Take care!


+1

Yeah it can get a little prickly every once in a while (like in the HWS thread), but if you just maintain a thick skin and realize it's just the interwebs (where people say all kinds of goofy crap) - it's _impossible_ to really get mad at _anything_ that's said (or even any names you're called). It's all just for fun.

That said, I totally agree with you that SN is one of the best places on the planet to learn a hell of a lot about sailing. Some really great guys around here.

Cheers!


----------



## jpqincny

There is a saying among motorcylists: $15,000 and 15 miles don't make you a biker. I don't sail much but I did qualify inshore skipper throught the US Navy sailing program in addition to having been an On scene leader for firefighting and damage control parties for all engineering spaces-rescue and repair, repair locker leader and fire marshall as well as damage control console operator, and relief on scene leader for helo crash and smash fire party. The reason I enumerate this is that the first thing that struck me in the first video (I haven't watched the rest yet) is the fact that the cockpit is a mess. When you prepare to get underway the VERY first thing you need to do is SECURE for sea. Drake obviously hasn't done even this basic first step, that he survived and learned is great, however, his learning curve really didn't need to be nearly so steep.


----------



## Ninefingers

Hey Drake, thank you SO much for your videos, they are huge for us folks just getting started!

Question, was this the Titan 14 in your video? That is some impressive vessel.

$5,000,000 was her price tag I believe.

Sail Boat Authority - Bartram & Brakenhoff Inc - TITAN XIV - Gallery


----------



## chall03

jpqincny said:


> There is a saying among motorcylists: $15,000 and 15 miles don't make you a biker. I don't sail much but I did qualify inshore skipper throught the US Navy sailing program in addition to having been an On scene leader for firefighting and damage control parties for all engineering spaces-rescue and repair, repair locker leader and fire marshall as well as damage control console operator, and relief on scene leader for helo crash and smash fire party. The reason I enumerate this is that the first thing that struck me in the first video (I haven't watched the rest yet) is the fact that the cockpit is a mess. When you prepare to get underway the VERY first thing you need to do is SECURE for sea. Drake obviously hasn't done even this basic first step, that he survived and learned is great, however, his learning curve really didn't need to be nearly so steep.


Maybe we were watching different videos? Things looked pretty shipshape to me.

If you get a chance I would recommend you watch the rest of Drake's videos.


----------



## aeventyr60

Even the saltiest, crustiest, been around sailors get whacked once in awhile. Lot's O doodoo happens out here!


----------



## drakeParagon

Ninefingers said:


> Hey Drake, thank you SO much for your videos, they are huge for us folks just getting started!
> 
> Question, was this the Titan 14 in your video? That is some impressive vessel.
> 
> $5,000,000 was her price tag I believe.
> 
> Sail Boat Authority - Bartram & Brakenhoff Inc - TITAN XIV - Gallery


Hi Ninefingers, Yup, that's her! Those photos are such a dream! Take it as rumor as I don't know if it's true, but someone recently told me that Titan XIV is actually just the support boat for a much larger one...

After Titan XIV arrived to continue the tow (12 hours after the collision) and I had relayed all of the relevant information I had to them, I had to speed off for Bermuda to enter the harbor and set anchor before sunset. Gail the crew on Cha Cha later told me that Titan XIV used some kind of canon/harpoon gun to shoot a light string over Cha Cha's bow.. To this they attached a spare halyard to use as the tow cable and asked Cha Cha to be extra careful with it because it cost over $3000.... here's a quote from a story which Gail wrote... I'll ask for her permission to post her entire story here...

"What followed was the tow from hell. It was so fast that it felt like we were inside a donut behind a speed boat. We radioed to ask them to slow down but they said they could not go below 8 knots as they were 'only idling' the engine and would lose steerage otherwise. This was almost as bad as being in the storm, but at least it only lasted four or five hours. "


----------



## Minnewaska

drakeParagon said:


> .........."What followed was the tow from hell. It was so fast that it felt like we were inside a donut behind a speed boat. We radioed to ask them to slow down but they said they could not go below 8 knots as they were 'only idling' the engine and would lose steerage otherwise. This was almost as bad as being in the storm, but at least it only lasted four or five hours. "


Gail doesn't seem to have deserved that experience, but the Cha Cha's skipper had some karma coming his way.

On the other hand, were you able to tell what would possess Gail to get on that rag tag boat with a stranger and set out to sea? From the pics of Cha Cha, I would question being below decks at a dock. Shake hands, throw my crew bag below and chop lines? No stinking way......


----------



## worldcruiser

*well done after all*

I was first amazed that he did'nt seem very prepared or trained, but after a while i really respected the way he turned out to help that other boat, and in the end he was not the amateuer but the 52 ft'er! What happened later, are there more videos?


----------



## worldcruiser

*titan 14*

Hi 
Do you know what kind of boat the titan is?


----------



## Ninefingers

worldcruiser said:


> Hi
> Do you know what kind of boat the titan is?


A very f'ing nice one. There's a link to it a few posts above.


----------



## Minnewaska

Google the Titan XIV and you will find she's available for charter for $70,000 per week or so.

Somehow, I find it amusing that the uber-rich have to pimp their things out so they can afford them. That's probably unfair, but honest. 

I will often google a mega yacht that we find in an anchorage, just to learn what it is. They are always for rent. 

Once, we had our lunch anchor down in the bay with a 150 ft power yacht several hundred yards away. When I looked it up, some newspaper articles said it was reportedly owned by a NYC mobster. We decided not to socialize. However, it too was for rent.


----------



## svHyLyte

Minnewaska said:


> ...
> 
> Somehow, I find it amusing that the uber-rich have to pimp their things out so they can afford them. That's probably unfair, but honest.


They/we don't. Offering one's yacht for charter makes it a business endeavor and, virtually, the entire cost of acquisition, operation and maintenance, tax deductible. One only needs show break-even or a modest profit once every 5 years or so.


----------



## Dean101

Minnewaska said:


> Once, we had our lunch anchor down in the bay with a 150 ft power yacht several hundred yards away. When I looked it up, some newspaper articles said it was reportedly owned by a NYC mobster. We decided not to socialize. However, it too was for rent.


Good call. You might have ended up swimmin' wit da fishes!:laugher


----------



## JonEisberg

jameswilson29 said:


> Again, we read about problems retracting a roller furling jib in heavy air, and all the associated problems it has caused. I seem to recall _Cha Cha's_ skipper experienced the same difficulty, leading to its roller-furling jib being ripped to shreds. I am still not convinced roller furling is the way to go offshore.


Well, I can only imagine someone like Brad van Liew might get a hearty chuckle, listening to us cyber-sailors debate the question of whether roller furling headsails are suitable for offshore sailing&#8230;. (grin)










Don't let your opinion be informed by an incident such as this, a failure suffered by an incompetent skipper in command of a piece of crap like CHA-CHA&#8230;Properly installed, maintained, and used, today's quality furlers like those from Selden, Profurl, Harken and the rest are virtually bulletproof, and among the most reliable gear to be found on today's boats&#8230; There is very little to "fear" about their causing trouble, I honestly can't remember the last time I had a serious issue with a headsail furler, and their universal acceptance among the elite singlehanded racing fraternity speaks volumes about their functionality and reliability&#8230;

Two weeks ago tonight, I was riding the first arctic blast of the winter down the Delmarva coast&#8230; It was a very sporty ride, a close reach most of the way, but the real work started at about 0200 when I made the turn at Cape Charles, and began the beat back up into Hampton Roads&#8230; Switching gears down from the genoa to staysail, I can't imagine having to do that with hanked-on sails on my boat&#8230; It was cold, in the 20s, the tide was flooding and kicking up a wicked chop against the 30 knot NNWly&#8230; I have no problem going to the mast to reef the main on a night like that, or in the conditions I just had off the Georgia/N Florida coast Friday night, but going forward of the mast is a whole different ballgame&#8230;

Another thing often overlooked on smaller boats and the use of hanked-on sails offshore, is the compromise forced upon one by the matter of stowage of your tender&#8230; On a boat like mine, the foredeck is really the only option for stowing the tender on passage, and it would seriously impair my ability to deal with hanked-on sails, and make it much more dangerous than on a clear foredeck&#8230; As always, just another tradeoff to be considered&#8230;

There may be good reasons for some to still prefer to avoid RF on a cruising boat, but fear of failure/problems should certainly not be among them&#8230; I would guess that 99.9% of those making the switch to RF never look back, if you know what you're doing with today's systems and don't abuse them, there's really very little chance of major drama with their use, IMHO&#8230;


----------



## davidpm

JonEisberg said:


> Well, I can only imagine someone like Brad van Liew might get a hearty chuckle, listening to us cyber-sailors debate the question of whether roller furling headsails are suitable for offshore sailing&#8230;. (grin)


I see what your mean. He has three of them just in case one or two break.


----------



## vega1860

JonEisberg said:


> ... their universal acceptance among the elite singlehanded racing fraternity speaks volumes about their functionality and reliability&#8230;


Members of the elite singlehanded racing fraternity generally have sponsors 



> I would guess that 99.9% of those making the switch to RF never look back,


I would guess that 98.9% of those making the switch to RF never go offshore at all.



> if you know what you're doing with today's systems and don't abuse them, there's really very little chance of major drama with their use, IMHO&#8230;


Agreed. But that is a mighty big IF.

"It is, of course, presumptuous of me to claim that I know the answer, but looking around I certainly can say that I have seen a great many people who presume to know the answer and do not." Col. Jeff Cooper


----------



## aeventyr60

Hardly see anyone here (offshore) using hank on sails. Not a whole lot of "If's" in using a modern RF system. Let's see for me it's been, what 14 years and NO, NADA, yep a big zero on the failure part. Not a whole lot to maintain either. Flush the bearings out once in awhile, check the extrusions, change the line every few years as needed and I'm good to go. I would not leave home with out it. But, hey i still use a manual windlass, so some things die hard for some folks.....


----------



## opc11

*Great Learning Experience*

Been lurking on Sailnet for the past year and only have a few posts but felt compelled to say thanks to the OP for starting this thread and I hope the good karma spread by drake is returned to him. Although it sounds like after finding Monique you may have to call it even As a matter of fact, you may owe karma one!

As to Cha Cha......I'm calling complete BS. Having been raised in the Newport, RI area, highly unlikely he was broke. That's not a cheap place to live. Yes, his engine didn't work well, but he still had to have fuel. Not cheap. He had to stock the boat w/ food. Not cheap. IMO Cha Cha was gambling on the kindness of strangers. You really think he was going to Bermuda w/ a woman he didn't know AND NO MONEY IN HIS POCKET? DOO DOO.

From this, I've learned to ask a lot of questions in a situation like this. Ask specifics about remedying the problems. Has he determined what's causing the stuck rudder? Has he even attempted to look? I'd definitely ask about the skipper's ability to reimburse for damages.

Last, I'd like to hear other's opinions on maritime law concering a situation like this. Could Drake have pursued Cha Cha legally?

Drake, I subscribed to your YouTube channel. I read this thread start to finish. A great thread! I've learned sooooo much from Sailnet and I hope to reconnect w/ the lifestyle in the years to come.

Now, I need to run. Velocity channel is running a show called "Against the Tide". It's an around the world race for amateur sailors (professional/experienced skippers on each clipper). Unfortunately, after looking into joining the next race. It turns out they charge each crewmember $70,000 to complete the entire race. Bummer!

Thanks again!
paul


----------



## Ajax_MD

JonEisberg said:


> Well, I can only imagine someone like Brad van Liew might get a hearty chuckle, listening to us cyber-sailors debate the question of whether roller furling headsails are suitable for offshore sailing&#8230;. (grin)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't let your opinion be informed by an incident such as this, a failure suffered by an incompetent skipper in command of a piece of crap like CHA-CHA&#8230;Properly installed, maintained, and used, today's quality furlers like those from Selden, Profurl, Harken and the rest are virtually bulletproof, and among the most reliable gear to be found on today's boats&#8230; <snip for brevity>&#8230;


You make a good case, Jon and you know I respect your experience and opinion. If I do ever upgrade to roller furling, I know I'll still be on the foredeck swapping sails (if conditions are safe enough), because I hate the shape of a partially furled sail.

However, I'll agree that when things go sour, that the ability to just roll the entire thing up from the safety of the cockpit, is probaby pretty nice.


----------



## JonEisberg

drakeParagon said:


> Just before I sold my Westsail 32 I purchased a Gale Rider drogue made mostly of webbing and was impressed by how good the construction seemed. I couldn't imagine it being ripped apart or getting fouled.. But I never got to use it..
> 
> It was really hard to not damage the JSD cones in the jib sheet winch when retrieving it, and i did end up having to sew quite a few of them back together.. I'm awestruck by HAL Roth's JSD Retrieval idea that I see in smackdaddy's last post here... I can't imagine that the cones could get damaged in my anchor bow roller or windlass.. WICKED COOL!!!  How come I never thought of that?!? Wow!!!
> 
> Drake


Perhaps it's just me, but I'm failing to see the brilliance of Hal's plan&#8230; And, far be it from me to take issue with one of my alltime sailing heroes, Hal Roth, but I would seriously doubt he had ever attempted to retrieve a JSD in boisterous conditions, using such a method, without at least damaging the drogue heavily&#8230;

The JSD, considering what it is asked to do, is still a surprisingly "delicate" piece of gear&#8230; And the only "proper" manner of retrieving it will be a rather careful, if not painstakingly laborious, one&#8230; IMHO, the only real way to do it is to heave-to, stopping the boat's forward motion as much as possible, and haul it back into the cockpit manually&#8230; As you know, that's gonna require a tremendous amount of effort, especially in conditions that are still rough, but have abated sufficiently that you want to hit the road again&#8230;

That's the big advantage of the Galerider, it's relative ease of retrieval using winches, and what recommends its use in somewhat more "marginal" storm conditions&#8230; The deployment of a JSD, you've got to accept you're likely to have to live with it for perhaps a longer period of time than you'd like&#8230;

But pulling one of those contraptions back over an anchor roller on a heaving foredeck in big seas (or, in your case, _THROUGH_ your bowsprit on your Westsail) using an electric windlass, well - I just don't see how you're gonna manage that without basically tearing the cones to shreds&#8230; Anyone who has spent many a winter evening performing the endlessly tedious task of constructing their own Jordan Series Drogue, will definitely want to keep the damage to a minimum&#8230; (grin)

For me, this is yet one more example in favor of keeping boat size "reasonable" for shorthanded sailing offshore&#8230; On a boat up to 40' or thereabouts, it should still be possible for an individual to manhandle such gear back on deck without mechanical assistance&#8230; But on the much larger boats so many people are now putting to sea aboard, the loads would simply be too great for the crew to deal with physically&#8230; (Not to mention, another argument for attempting to keep your stern rail as clean as possible by mimimizing 'de Crap on 'de Back... Try to either deploy or retrieve a JSD from inside a fully-enclosed aft cockpit, for example... (grin))

Finally, for anyone making up theit own JSD, I'd recommend considering the use of a Spectra rope like Amsteel instead of the more conventional double braid&#8230;. Because you can use a much smaller diameter rope, the weight of the assembly will be _much_ lighter, it won't absorb water, and will stow in a far more compact package&#8230; Amsteel's considerably more expensive, no doubt, but well worth it in this case, IMHO&#8230;


----------



## LandLocked66c

Smack, round up the Cha Cha's captain! Let's hear his story!


----------



## smackdaddy

JonEisberg said:


> ...
> 
> Finally, for anyone making up theit own JSD, I'd recommend considering the use of a Spectra rope like Amsteel instead of the more conventional double braid&#8230;. Because you can use a much smaller diameter rope, the weight of the assembly will be _much_ lighter, it won't absorb water, and will stow in a far more compact package&#8230; Amsteel's considerably more expensive, no doubt, but well worth it in this case, IMHO&#8230;


That's a great idea. I don't know how much the elasticity of the rope plays into the performance of the drogue - but everything else you mention sounds perfectly reasonable.


----------



## blowinstink

To Jon's point, there is some interesting material on JSD retrieval here:

Storm Tactics

One experienced voyager describes not being able to retrieve the gear until the winds subside to 15-20. Lots of other interesting bits on the site too.


----------



## AdamLein

JonEisberg said:


> Well, I can only imagine someone like Brad van Liew might get a hearty chuckle, listening to us cyber-sailors debate the question of whether roller furling headsails are suitable for offshore sailing&#8230;. (grin)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't let your opinion be informed by an incident such as this, a failure suffered by an incompetent skipper in command of a piece of crap like CHA-CHA&#8230;


If you get to say, "Cha Cha is an outlier; you don't have to worry about ending up like him," then I get to say, "Brad van Liew is an outlier; I can't hope to end up like him."

Much as I might try


----------



## drakeParagon

JonEisberg said:


> Perhaps it's just me, but I'm failing to see the brilliance of Hal's plan&#8230; And, far be it from me to take issue with one of my alltime sailing heroes, Hal Roth, but I would seriously doubt he had ever attempted to retrieve a JSD in boisterous conditions, using such a method, without at least damaging the drogue heavily&#8230;
> 
> The JSD, considering what it is asked to do, is still a surprisingly "delicate" piece of gear&#8230; And the only "proper" manner of retrieving it will be a rather careful, if not painstakingly laborious, one&#8230; IMHO, the only real way to do it is to heave-to, stopping the boat's forward motion as much as possible, and haul it back into the cockpit manually&#8230; As you know, that's gonna require a tremendous amount of effort, especially in conditions that are still rough, but have abated sufficiently that you want to hit the road again&#8230;
> 
> But pulling one of those contraptions back over an anchor roller on a heaving foredeck in big seas (or, in your case, THROUGH your bowsprit on your Westsail) using an electric windlass, well - I just don't see how you're gonna manage that without basically tearing the cones to shreds&#8230; Anyone who has spent many a winter evening performing the endlessly tedious task of constructing their own Jordan Series Drogue, will definitely want to keep the damage to a minimum&#8230; (grin)
> 
> Finally, for anyone making up theit own JSD, I'd recommend considering the use of a Spectra rope like Amsteel instead of the more conventional double braid&#8230;. Because you can use a much smaller diameter rope, the weight of the assembly will be much lighter, it won't absorb water, and will stow in a far more compact package&#8230; Amsteel's considerably more expensive, no doubt, but well worth it in this case, IMHO&#8230;


I really like your recommendation of using lighter and smaller diameter rope for the JSD! It's such a tedious task to pack all that thick and heavy stuff back in the bag..

In the 2 times that I brought in the JSD I used a self tailing jib sheet winch. A laborious task taking at least half an hour (and really killing my arm!).. I only ripped the cones when they got crunched in the self tailer part of the winch. My impression is that there would be less that could damage the cones if I did Hal Roth's way. I think the anchor roller and windlass drum are big enough for nothing to snag. Using the electric winch I could tail it myself... and I wouldn't have to kill my arm cranking... I'm looking forward to trying it! 



JonEisberg said:


> For me, this is yet one more example in favor of keeping boat size "reasonable" for shorthanded sailing offshore&#8230; On a boat up to 40' or thereabouts, it should still be possible for an individual to manhandle such gear back on deck without mechanical assistance&#8230; But on the much larger boats so many people are now putting to sea aboard, the loads would simply be too great for the crew to deal with physically&#8230;


On my smaller Westsail 32 I could always man handle the jib furler by pulling the line by hand. Difficult in heavier wind, but possible. But on my bigger Westsail 42 it's just about impossible to furl the jib in heavy air without a winch.. I think my big mistake was not installing a self tailing winch for furling the jib.. It made everything so much harder to correct when I accidentally gybed when that squall hit. I was spending forever battling with trying to get the jib in by pulling the line in by hand... Never again! I'm installing a self tailing winch for furling the jib before we push off...


----------



## Ajax_MD

drakeParagon said:


> <snip>
> 
> On my smaller Westsail 32 I could always man handle the jib furler by pulling the line by hand. Difficult in heavier wind, but possible. But *on my bigger Westsail 42 it's just about impossible to furl the jib in heavy air without a winch.. *I think my big mistake was not installing a self tailing winch for furling the jib.. It made everything so much harder to correct when I accidentally gybed when that squall hit. I was spending forever battling with trying to get the jib in by pulling the line in by hand... Never again! I'm installing a self tailing winch for furling the jib before we push off...


*Clueless Amatuer Alert*

I don't understand this statement. I admit that I have limited experience, and use hank-on jibs, but are you trying to furl while sailing off the wind? Couldn't you come close to the wind to unload the sail, and furl it, then fall back off and resume couse?

I realize that this may mean reversing course for a few minutes. What am I missing here?

Example: During last year's Governor's Cup, the wind built the point where the skipper ordered a headsail change. A less experienced driver was at the helm, and the crew couldn't haul the sail down (this sail was in a foil, not hanks). I nudged the helmsmen and told him to pinch up a bit to unload the sail, and it came right down. He thanked me for the reminder, later that night.


----------



## casey1999

Dean101 said:


> I partially agree with you on this Casey. I'm sure that many boats are abandoned before they are in danger of sinking and I'm also sure that as long as a huge wave doesn't break on the boat it will probably survive. It seems to me though, that if you just batten down the hatches and leave the boat to fend for itself, you run the risk of it turning beam on to the sea, which would not be good. And I'm not so sure you would be any safer inside the boat rather than on deck in case of a rollover or even a knockdown.
> 
> I watched a video that was posted on another thread where they rigged up the interior of a typical cruising boat with gear that would normally be carried. They even put crash dummies and video cameras inside the cabin to capture the action. They ran straps under the hull and then proceeded to roll the boat steadily over until it rolled 360 degrees. it was total chaos inside as things fell out of shelved and dropped across the cabin! I would NOT have wanted to be inside that thing. This was dockside in a controlled environment. I could only imagine the injuries you could sustain in an actual rollover during a violent storm. That video is on youtube.
> 
> With that said, I finally got my copy of the Pardey's book "Storm Tactics" and have made it to chapter 5 so far. They tend to look at lying ahull as a chancy and potentially dangerous thing and seem to favor heaving-to and add a para anchor with adjustable bridle when it really gets nasty. They say heaving-to creates a "slick" of disturbed water as the hull, pointing around 50 degrees off the wind, makes slow leeway as Chrisncate referred to. I've never experienced it but apparently this slick reduces much of the waves strength. They make several observations of waves breaking fore and aft of their boat but not on the boat.
> 
> Even disregarding the Pardeys experience, in my own opinion I would not want to trust to blind luck. At the least, I would want to deploy a sea anchor to keep my bow to the waves if it got that bad. After reading what little that I have of their ideas so far, they make sense and would be good tricks to have up your sleeve. I do think that several poster's have the right idea when they say that every boat/crew, wind, and wave combination is different.
> 
> Regards


I saw the video of the roll over test. What I got from that is prepare you boat so that if you do roll, things do not go flying around that can hurt you. Your boat should be prepared like this no matter if you sail around the world or in a lake. Also, in survival conditions, I would try to spend most time in the bunk with heavy lee cloth holding me in, in case of a roll over. No matter what you are always safer inside the cabin than outside in a roll over. Can you hold your breath for 30 seconds in 35 deg F water at night and while in a panic teathered to a rolling boat? I do not think I could. When I say I would lay a hull, I would only do it in survival conditons- basically to windy to hove to and deal with any thing on the deck. I think I would rather lie a hull than set a sea anchor as I would not want the bow to go in deep to a breaking wave and have that wave go over the boat which may equal a roll over. Other boats may react with a sea anchor better and maybe that would be a better choice.


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## casey1999

Drake, 
Did you do anything to strengthen you mast compression post? I was thinking that movement would really effect your standing rigging which may lead to a cable/fitting failure, as there would be a lot of fatigue and all your rigging pre-tension settings would be thrown off. I do not think you should have any noticable compression of the post.
Regards


----------



## smackdaddy

drakeParagon said:


> On my smaller Westsail 32 I could always man handle the jib furler by pulling the line by hand. Difficult in heavier wind, but possible. But on my bigger Westsail 42 it's just about impossible to furl the jib in heavy air without a winch.. I think my big mistake was not installing a self tailing winch for furling the jib.. It made everything so much harder to correct when I accidentally gybed when that squall hit. I was spending forever battling with trying to get the jib in by pulling the line in by hand... Never again! I'm installing a self tailing winch for furling the jib before we push off...


I found this out the hard way, going from my C27 to racing on two 37'-ers. Just 10 more feet, but everything regarding the sails was way more intensive. For example, just hoisting the main on my first race on a PSC37 was surprising. I was grinding way longer than I was used to on my C27. I started to wonder if there was a "top".

Then the force of the sails and lines quickly taught me about the utility of the turning blocks for the sheets (which I have on my C27 but had never used out of ignorance - as mentioned above).

The forces on a big boat are pretty incredible.


----------



## drakeParagon

casey1999 said:


> Drake,
> Did you do anything to strengthen you mast compression post? I was thinking that movement would really effect your standing rigging which may lead to a cable/fitting failure, as there would be a lot of fatigue and all your rigging pre-tension settings would be thrown off. I do not think you should have any noticable compression of the post.
> Regards


Hi Casey, I strengthened everything I could... I replaced the 3" diameter schedule 10 pipe compression post with a ridiculously overbuilt 3.5" diameter schedule 80 pipe. The walls of this pipe are a 1/4" thick! Way overbuilt. I also custom welded an additional I-beam and thru bolted it to the stringers underneath the old I-beam which supports the compression post... Now have 2 I-beams supporting the post. The 2.5" thick plywood/glass layered deck was crushed between the mast and the compression post, so I cut it all out and rebuilt it with layers of aluminum plate and fiberglass cloth saturated in West System... Then I figured "oh what the heck the mast down anyway", and spent months removing all the hardware, sanding it all down to bare aluminum and painting it myself with zinc chromate, Awlgrip 545 primer, and Awlcraft 2000 paint (oyster white...) I had replaced the chain plates before leaving NYC and they still look good.. I might replace the standing rigging before we push off in April...


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## killarney_sailor

*jib furling block*



drakeParagon said:


> On my smaller Westsail 32 I could always man handle the jib furler by pulling the line by hand. Difficult in heavier wind, but possible. But on my bigger Westsail 42 it's just about impossible to furl the jib in heavy air without a winch.. I think my big mistake was not installing a self tailing winch for furling the jib.. It made everything so much harder to correct when I accidentally gybed when that squall hit. I was spending forever battling with trying to get the jib in by pulling the line in by hand... Never again! I'm installing a self tailing winch for furling the jib before we push off...


I may be repeating myself here because I have posted this before - perhaps in this thread?!? My Bristol would be comparable in displacement (36,000 lb) and I probably have a larger jib since it is not a cutter, but I found two changes really helped with getting the jib in. One is a newer, good-sized Shaeffer furler to replace the very old, Hood system. With the Hood you needed to use a winch most of the time. With the Schaeffer only on rare occasions. The other change was that I have the furling line go through one of those Harken blocsk designed for furling that clamps onto the bottom of a stanchion. It has a ratchet system in that makes a world of difference since you can rest for a second or two between pulls without using any strength. I find it makes a big difference on the next pull where I might bring in 5' or so of line. I have turned the ratchet off to try it and then turned it back and the difference is huge. BTW, I am not a big, strong guy - 5'11", 170 lbs and in my 60s, so I am not getting the sail in with brute force. Up to about 15 knots my wife can pull it in.

I find the block is a little underbuilt for the loads of my boat offshore. The four bolts that hold it around the stanchion screw into brass 'nuts' set into the plastic and I have found after >10,000 miles of cruising that the brass nuts are pulling out of the plastic. I am going to modify the block so it through-bolts into real nuts and I think that should work ok. The ratchet mechanism is also a bit on the weak side as I had one break - it still works fine as a block and I use it at the first stanchion from the bown.

The block is a Harken 7401.


----------



## jackdale

I have not seen this comment yet.

When bringing out a roller furling foresail, it is essential to keep a little tension on the furling line to prevent a rats nest from developing in the drum. If you are single-handing just put a wrap around a winch.

Also the angle of the furling from the block just before the drum is crucial so that line will not just wrap around the bottom or the top of the drum, jamming it.


----------



## JonEisberg

vega1860 said:


> JonEisberg said:
> 
> 
> 
> and their universal acceptance among the elite singlehanded racing fraternity speaks volumes about their functionality and reliability&#8230;
> 
> 
> 
> Members of the elite singlehanded racing fraternity generally have sponsors
Click to expand...

Hey, kroozers can have sponsors, too&#8230; Take the Bumfuzzles, for example - their "Wanna buy us a pizza?" PayPal link could have been just as well titiled "Wanna buy us a roller furler?", no? (grin)

My point is, roller furling headsails by now have a superb track record of functionality and reliability among a wide array of sailors&#8230;

Another example, then - Rolf Bjelke and Deborah Shapiro&#8230;










If they are to be considered "Offshore" sailors, that is&#8230; (grin)



vega1860 said:


> JonEisberg said:
> 
> 
> 
> There may be good reasons for some to still prefer to avoid RF on a cruising boat, but fear of failure/problems should certainly not be among them&#8230; I would guess that 99.9% of those making the switch to RF never look back, if you know what you're doing with today's systems and don't abuse them, there's really very little chance of major drama with their use, IMHO&#8230;
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed. But that is a mighty big IF.
Click to expand...

Well, then I would suggest that any sailor incapable of routinely inspecting and maintaining a system that rarely requires either, or properly performing an operation as butt-simple as the operation of a furling headsail, well&#8230; they probably shouldn't be going up on the foredeck on a dirty night offshore to change their hanked-on headsails, either&#8230;. (grin)


----------



## drakeParagon

BubbleheadMd said:


> *Clueless Amatuer Alert*
> 
> I don't understand this statement. I admit that I have limited experience, and use hank-on jibs, but are you trying to furl while sailing off the wind? Couldn't you come close to the wind to unload the sail, and furl it, then fall back off and resume couse?
> 
> I realize that this may mean reversing course for a few minutes. What am I missing here?
> 
> Example: During last year's Governor's Cup, the wind built the point where the skipper ordered a headsail change. A less experienced driver was at the helm, and the crew couldn't haul the sail down (this sail was in a foil, not hanks). I nudged the helmsmen and told him to pinch up a bit to unload the sail, and it came right down. He thanked me for the reminder, later that night.


Hi BubbleheadMD!

You're certainly not clueless! I bet that was awesome helping all aboard by knowing how to unload the sail..

I think in general the bigger the boat and sails, then the longer it takes to furl, and the greater the forces are to the point of having to do things differently than on a smaller boat... I think that the bigger the boat the more important it becomes to furl in a much more controlled way...

On my boat, heading into the wind in a squall to furl the jib would cause the jib to flog like crazy with enough force and for long enough to likely damage the sail. I would also need my engine to head into heavy wind.. and doing that would cause my boat to hobby horse which is more of a problem with my hull than others...

I would rather try to keep the boat on course with the wind vane, slack the jib sheet until it just barely begins to flog, then furl it in a little bit with a self tailing winch. Then repeat until enough or all of the jib is brought in.. all without letting it flog..


----------



## smackdaddy

JonEisberg said:


> ...butt-simple &#8230;. (grin)


Now that's a term that needs far more exposure in the sailing world.


----------



## JonEisberg

drakeParagon said:


> On my smaller Westsail 32 I could always man handle the jib furler by pulling the line by hand. Difficult in heavier wind, but possible. But on my bigger Westsail 42 it's just about impossible to furl the jib in heavy air without a winch.. I think my big mistake was not installing a self tailing winch for furling the jib.. It made everything so much harder to correct when I accidentally gybed when that squall hit. I was spending forever battling with trying to get the jib in by pulling the line in by hand... Never again! I'm installing a self tailing winch for furling the jib before we push off...


In my opinion, and I think I echo the comments of killarney sailor above, something's not right, if you're not able to manage to furl your headsails - at least in normal conditions - without resorting to the use of a winch...

IMHO, such "abuse" of headsail furlers is perhaps the Number One contributor to problems on down the road... Winches can do damage, and of course electric winches are the worst, I'll bet lots of RF systems out there today are being mangled with the press of a button...

The problem is, most manufacturers size their furlers for "normal" use, the sort of coastal sailing most people do... Just like anchor manufacturers do with their sizing recommendations, for example... But if you're gonna sail offshore, it will never hurt to step up a size, IMO - that will give you the mechanical advantage necessary to furl with less effort, and have to resort to using winches, and whatnot...

Are you sure your lead is completely fair and absent any unnecessary friction? Ball bearing blocks are well worth it for this application, and as KS mentions, a ratchet for the final turning block is invaluable... And, the addition of a S-t winch just for furling seems like way overkill, can't you simply cross-lead to another available winch, if need be?

Finally, how are you generally furling the sail, to begin with? I find that whenever the loads have increased to where furling is gonna require some major effort, they can be lightened considerably by sharply falling off, and deeply easing the sail while it's being blanketed by the main... If you're still attempting to sail close-hauled and furl at the same time, even with allowing the sail to luff completely (further accelerating the eventual demise of both the furler and sail, of course (grin)) the loads are generally going to be considerably more than if you're sailing off the breeze, you may have immediately halved your apparent wind, after all...


----------



## Ajax_MD

drakeParagon said:


> Hi BubbleheadMD!
> 
> You're certainly not clueless! I bet that was awesome helping all aboard by knowing how to unload the sail..
> 
> I think in general the bigger the boat and sails, then the longer it takes to furl, and the greater the forces are to the point of having to do things differently than on a smaller boat... I think that the bigger the boat the more important it becomes to furl in a much more controlled way...
> 
> On my boat, heading into the wind in a squall to furl the jib would cause the jib to flog like crazy with enough force and for long enough to likely damage the sail. I would also need my engine to head into heavy wind.. and doing that would cause my boat to hobby horse which is more of a problem with my hull than others...
> 
> I would rather try to keep the boat on course with the wind vane, slack the jib sheet until it just barely begins to flog, then furl it in a little bit with a self tailing winch. Then repeat until enough or all of the jib is brought in.. all without letting it flog..


Ok, I have a better understanding of the difficulties you were facing now.

True, your boat is much bigger than the C&C 35 in my example, and very different, plus singlehanding is different than having a crew on the foredeck waiting to haul the sail down, and prevent it from flogging.

Thanks for the explanation.


----------



## casey1999

drakeParagon said:


> Hi Casey, I strengthened everything I could... I replaced the 3" diameter schedule 10 pipe compression post with a ridiculously overbuilt 3.5" diameter schedule 80 pipe. The walls of this pipe are a 1/4" thick! Way overbuilt. I also custom welded an additional I-beam and thru bolted it to the stringers underneath the old I-beam which supports the compression post... Now have 2 I-beams supporting the post. The 2.5" thick plywood/glass layered deck was crushed between the mast and the compression post, so I cut it all out and rebuilt it with layers of aluminum plate and fiberglass cloth saturated in West System... Then I figured "oh what the heck the mast down anyway", and spent months removing all the hardware, sanding it all down to bare aluminum and painting it myself with zinc chromate, Awlgrip 545 primer, and Awlcraft 2000 paint (oyster white...) I had replaced the chain plates before leaving NYC and they still look good.. I might replace the standing rigging before we push off in April...


Cool, sounds like you are ready for your next storm.


----------



## JonEisberg

smackdaddy said:


> That's a great idea. I don't know how much the elasticity of the rope plays into the performance of the drogue - but everything else you mention sounds perfectly reasonable.


Well, elasticity is quite important in a drogue system, but that's the beauty of the JSD - the "elasticity" comes from the _design_ itself, and is not reliant on the materials used... However, with a single point drag device like a Galerider, there is no way you'd want to use a rope like Amsteel, the snatching loads could be huge, and overwhelm the strength of the attachment points, etc...

One thing with using Amsteel, because the "weave" of the rope is far looser than a double braid, the recommended manner of attaching the cones will have to be revised, a simple knot will not do... I used small fender washers to prevent the webbing from being pulled through the rope, or you could simply tie the three ends together after threading it thru the rope...



smackdaddy said:


> I found this out the hard way, going from my C27 to racing on two 37'-ers. Just 10 more feet, but everything regarding the sails was way more intensive. For example, just hoisting the main on my first race on a PSC37 was surprising. I was grinding way longer than I was used to on my C27. I started to wonder if there was a "top".


Again, somethings wrong there - there is no way the main on a boat like a PSC 37 should require that sort of effort to hoist... One should be able to raise it to full hoist simply by pulling the halyard at the mast, only having to put it on the winch for the final halyard tensioning...

Ahh, but were the halyards led aft to the cockpit? Well, then _THAT_ gives you an idea of the additional friction induced by leading lines aft, rather than keeping them all at the mast - _where they should be_... (grin)

The owner of that boat should consider something like a Strong Track from Tides Marine, raising the main on a boat that size should not be that big a deal...


----------



## -OvO-

My understanding is that you really want as little stretch as possible in the JSD line. Somewhere I read that you're supposed to let out more line every hour to limit chafe, but I don't understand that. I need to get me one of these to experiment with.


----------



## Skippyman

Drake, What happened to the jib sheet that wrapped around the prop? How and when did you get loose?


----------



## drakeParagon

JonEisberg said:


> In my opinion, and I think I echo the comments of killarney sailor above, something's not right, if you're not able to manage to furl your headsails - at least in normal conditions - without resorting to the use of a winch...
> 
> IMHO, such "abuse" of headsail furlers is perhaps the Number One contributor to problems on down the road... Winches can do damage, and of course electric winches are the worst, I'll bet lots of RF systems out there today are being mangled with the press of a button...
> 
> The problem is, most manufacturers size their furlers for "normal" use, the sort of coastal sailing most people do... Just like anchor manufacturers do with their sizing recommendations, for example... But if you're gonna sail offshore, it will never hurt to step up a size, IMO - that will give you the mechanical advantage necessary to furl with less effort, and have to resort to using winches, and whatnot...
> 
> Are you sure your lead is completely fair and absent any unnecessary friction? Ball bearing blocks are well worth it for this application, and as KS mentions, a ratchet for the final turning block is invaluable... And, the addition of a S-t winch just for furling seems like way overkill, can't you simply cross-lead to another available winch, if need be?
> 
> Finally, how are you generally furling the sail, to begin with? I find that whenever the loads have increased to where furling is gonna require some major effort, they can be lightened considerably by sharply falling off, and deeply easing the sail while it's being blanketed by the main... If you're still attempting to sail close-hauled and furl at the same time, even with allowing the sail to luff completely (further accelerating the eventual demise of both the furler and sail, of course (grin)) the loads are generally going to be considerably more than if you're sailing off the breeze, you may have immediately halved your apparent wind, after all...


Hi JonEisberg,

My Westail 42 has a very large Profurl roller furler for the jib.

In lighter winds I have no difficulty pulling in the jib furling line by hand. I often wrap it around the dedicated winch, pull the line by hand, and then secure it in the self tailer.

In heavy air I think it would be next to impossible to furl the jib without a winch, even with bearing off or going down wind.

My biggest concern is always to not let the jib flog when furling it. With the wind vane steering, I let out a little bit of jib to the point where it might just start to flog. Then I furl it in a little bit with the dedicated self tailing furling winch.. Then I repeat the process until the jib is furled as much as I want.

On my boat I can't bring the furling line across the cockpit to another winch that's normally used for something else because the line would chafe on the cockpit coaming... and I would be uncomfortable with the line going through the cockpit like that...

But that's all just me and my boat... I've rigged everything as much as possible for single handing in all conditions and I get into heavy air every time I make a passage..

I wonder at what point do offshore sailboats get so big that they need winches to raise or furl all sails 100% of time? I wonder at what point do offshore sailboats get so big that they need all of these winches to be electrically powered...

Or I wonder if when I'm 95 years old and still sailing offshore on my Westsail 42 if I might switch all my winches to electric ones to keep me out there longer as the inevitable infirmity settles in...

We'll see..


----------



## aeventyr60

I always wonder why folks put such huge sails on the RF system when offshore. I sized down to a 107% working jib. In lighter airs I fly the cruising shute. When it gets heavy I'm on the hanked on staysail and when it gets really ugly the storm jib.

Always pulled in by hand as well. Not to difficult to luff up a bit or head a little further down wind. Butt simple....


----------



## MedSailor

Another epic thread. I don't think I've said it before, so I'll say it now. SmackDaddy, I'm glad you're here. You've contributed a lot to the value of Sailnet.

Now, for my comments. (MedSailor gets out his trusty armchair)

Well done Drake. You did a very good deed for helping out Cha-Cha. I also really like the style of your videos as they're raw. Unlike the mags and more polished sailing videos (that never show you the decision-making, fear or mistakes) your videos are the 99% of sailing videos. The magazines are the 1%.

*Fatigue* is an under-rated player in this story. It saps the will, it degrades the ability to make decisions, and it's cumulative. I know a little about sleep physiology and I cringed when you mentioned just how short your naps were. You will function MUCH better if you are able to allow yourself 20-25min naps occasionally. There are ways to calculate how long it would take to see a ship on the horizon based on speed. I would think that if you were going slowly it would calculate out that you might be able to take longer naps. Also, I think AIS is a huge boon for single-handers. The big boats that would turn you into flotsam usually all have AIS and the boats small enough not to have it are, I think, a little more likely to have a lookout/watch.

Another important thing to know about fatigue is that your perceived impairment does not increase as you get more tired, but your actual impairment does. Thus as you get more and more fatigued you should be suspicious of your own decisions and critical operations should be "idiot-proofed" in advance if at all possible.

*On drag devices*
I've never used a JSD but I've been on a boat that deployed a sea anchor off the bow in a storm off South Point HI. The boat was a 40ft plywood-fiberglass no-nonsense commercial fishing boat. The owner, a native Hawaiian has used the sea anchor off the bow countless times to get sleep in storms, or to just stop and fish. When I was aboard it was probably only 35-40kts and there were no breaking waves but they were short and confused due to our location. It was incredible how calm things became once the sea-anchor was out. I was very impressed. Why don't more people recommend launching the sea-anchor off the bow? Seems like it would be harder to fore-reach that way....

I like Roth's retrieval idea. I've done something nearly identical to transfer the load from a stern anchor to the bow in an overly-exotic anchor setup. It worked like a charm, even under a huge load anchored in 35kts with 6' rollers in the anchorage. . I think the bow roller, engine, and windlass would be a better set-up for getting it in. (care of course taken not to foul the prop) Another thing I REALLY like about his idea, is that if the JSD isn't working for you from the stern, you can release it form the stern, so that it's now off the boat and "give it a try" streaming from the bow as a sea-anchor. First-hand accounts of tactics in storms seem to show that different boats act differently in storms and what works for one, does not work for another. His rig allows you 2 options instead of one and it's easy to switch between.

The Amsteel idea I don't like. While a smaller-diameter rode allows for space savings, it makes you much more prone to chafe. Chafe, is the real enemy in these scenarios it seems. How many accounts have you read where everything was going great at anchor in the hurricane, or laying to a sea-anchor when chafe ruined it all. A small diameter amsteel line would chafe in no time flat. Were it not for this fact, I'd be using 1/4" amsteel for my anchor line... Also remember that amsteel doesn't hold traditional knots or splices well, they come undone under load. You have to know the more exotic splices and knots.

*On reefing:* I do not think that you should have to use a winch to reef your furler. You should have a rigger look at how your line is run. For as much thought as I put into my setup, my rigger (which I bent over and hired) came up with a better idea in under a minute. Everywhere the line turns we use Harken blocks, and before we come to our final block, there is a spinlock cleat. This is along the same lines as the ratcheting block, but works better. It also provides extra insurance against the line coming undone and releasing the sail. The rigger could also tell you if your lines are too big for your blocks (causing huge friction) and find other issues.

If you haven't taken a good look at Strong-Track by tides marine, I think you should. Anyone who single or short-hands can benefit from it. I've seen it work first hand (as advertised) consider it safety gear and it is prioritized in my budget accordingly.

For those that don't believe in furlers, I pity you. Life is SO much better over here.  I do have a recommendation though: You can install side-by-side headstays and permanently keep a jib and genoa hanked on, side-by-side. Combined with 2 downhauls you would have a pretty versatile rig that would require a minimum of time at the foredeck. Hardware such as this: will help separate the headstays.









Lastly, *on stopper-knots*. I've had a highly loaded figure 8 get sucked into a sheet-block and not want to come out. I now use 1/2 of a double fisherman's knot (would that be a single fisherman?). I agree with leaving a tail on the knot, but if you can afford the extra 6" of line you should tie a SECOND overhand, 8 or fisherman's knot at the very end. This knot gives you much better grip than just a bare tail for getting the line back in service.

Again, good on ya' Drake for going out and doing it, and sharing the un-glorified version with the unwashed masses so that we can all learn from it. It truly is the mistakes that we learn better from, and I prefer to learn from OTHER'S mistakes whenever possible.  Cheers for helping out another boat in distress. You're a class act.

MedSailor


----------



## drakeParagon

Skippyman said:


> Drake, What happened to the jib sheet that wrapped around the prop? How and when did you get loose?


Hi Skippyman, For a while I noticed that there was a small amount of the jib sheet spinning behind the boat as I motored on.. But by the time I got to Bermuda it had worked itself off by itself...


----------



## JonEisberg

MedSailor said:


> *Fatigue* is an under-rated player in this story. It saps the will, it degrades the ability to make decisions, and it's cumulative. I know a little about sleep physiology and I cringed when you mentioned just how short your naps were. You will function MUCH better if you are able to allow yourself 20-25min naps occasionally. There are ways to calculate how long it would take to see a ship on the horizon based on speed. I would think that if you were going slowly it would calculate out that you might be able to take longer naps. Also, I think AIS is a huge boon for single-handers. The big boats that would turn you into flotsam usually all have AIS and the boats small enough not to have it are, I think, a little more likely to have a lookout/watch.


I agree, a singlehander like Drake really needs to learn more about trying to manage sleep more effectively... Everyone's different, of course, but I think his "3 minute naps" are next to worthless, and find it a little hard to believe he never slept more than 25 minutes or so at a time during this entire voyage... There is definitely a better way...

Lots of literature available out there about managing sleep for such an endeavor, and if you're serious about singlehanding, I'd recommend attending one of Dr. Claudio Stampi's seminars offered in conjunction with the Bermuda 1-2...

Everyone wants the magic bullet/one size fits all solution to sleep management, but like so much else regarding sailing and passagemaking, it is largely a learned discipline, requiring a lot of practice... You have to come to understand your own body's circadian rhythm, and when sleep periods are likely to benefit you the most... Perhaps the biggest problem, is that in the Northern European/Anglo-Saxon/American culture, there is little emphasis placed on the value of "napping", nothing comparable to the Latin tradition of la Siesta... The ability to nap effectively really is a learned behavior, one that many sailors IMHO have a totally unrealistic expectation regarding how quickly they may be able to master...

Agreed, AIS is a game-changer for the singlehander, one which anyone now sailing solo would be foolish to do without...



MedSailor said:


> The Amsteel idea I don't like. While a smaller-diameter rode allows for space savings, it makes you much more prone to chafe. Chafe, is the real enemy in these scenarios it seems. How many accounts have you read where everything was going great at anchor in the hurricane, or laying to a sea-anchor when chafe ruined it all. A small diameter amsteel line would chafe in no time flat. Were it not for this fact, I'd be using 1/4" amsteel for my anchor line... Also remember that amsteel doesn't hold traditional knots or splices well, they come undone under load. You have to know the more exotic splices and knots.


As per the recommendation of Don Jordan himself, chafe should not be an issue with a series drogue... The bridle gets shackled to strong points at the corners of the transom, and the Amsteel would never come in contact with anything to chafe upon... In my experience, Amsteel is highly resistant to chafe, in any case...

Here's further explanation from John Harries on MORGAN'S CLOUD:

Jordan Series Drogue Deployment System On Expedition Sailboat

Not sure why you feel it doesn't hold splices well, Amsteel is one of the leading choices of rope for arborists, and on winch lines for offroad vehicles, after all... An eye splice in Amsteel is actually one of the easiest splices there is to make (if I can do it, anyone can), all it requires is a bit of additional lockstitching to make it secure...


----------



## smackdaddy

MedSailor said:


> Another epic thread. I don't think I've said it before, so I'll say it now. SmackDaddy, I'm glad you're here. You've contributed a lot to the value of Sailnet.


Heh-heh. Dude, don't say that out loud! You'll ruffle a lot of grumpy old feathers!

PS - Thanks.


----------



## ftldiver

I watched the 6 videos, and one after Irene...

haven't had a chance to read the entire thread but I WILL!

*I just wanted to jump in and say thanks to Drake for sharing! 
*
hopefully I and others can learn something the easy way.. for once! haha...


----------



## drakeParagon

JonEisberg said:


> I agree, a singlehander like Drake really needs to learn more about trying to manage sleep more effectively... Everyone's different, of course, but I think his "3 minute naps" are next to worthless, and find it a little hard to believe he never slept more than 25 minutes or so at a time during this entire voyage... There is definitely a better way...


When sleeping in the cockpit I use a wonderful product called the "Watch Commander" - I set a dial for how many minutes I want to sleep and when that time has elapsed it beeps lightly to wake me up... I get up and can usually check everything in about a minute or two... Then I press the big red button on the watch commander to reset the alarm and fall right back to sleep in about 5-10 seconds...

If the light beeping isn't enough to wake me within 60 seconds then a second piercing siren alarm goes off which is so loud that it's painful - Believe me, it doest just wake you up, it conditions you to automatically jump every time you hear that first lightly beeping alarm. You scramble to press that big red button so that you don't have to undergo that second painful alarm.. Hit the button, check everything, hit the button again, go to sleep and repeat... The only way to turn the watch commander off is by cutting 12 volt power to it from the ship's circuit breaker panel.

I never got so tired that the 2nd alarm couldn't wake me, or so tired that I was unable to effectively check everything after waking... I think I do that checking routine very automatically, and maybe don't really wake up 100% before going right back to sleep... If you're only awake for a couple of minutes at a time to check everything and then sleep soundly for 21 minutes then you're really sleeping the vast majority of the time, all day and night long... Of course if I found anything not right with the boat then I would snap to being fully awake to deal with it.

The timer settings on the watch commander's dial are for: 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18, 21, 30, 45, 60 or 90 minutes.

I only set the watch commander for as little as 3 minutes when sailing close to the coast or shipping lanes, or whenever I sensed there might be a danger, so the minority of the time. While 3 minutes asleep and then a couple minutes awake is incredibly taxing, it is worth a lot more than no sleep at all..

I recommend the watch commander even if there are two or more aboard doing watches... If anything happens to the person on watch on deck and they can't hit that button, then the second siren alarm wakes up everyone down below...

The only time I didn't keep my single handed watches like this was when hove-to in a storm, or when I was depending on another boat to keep watch while I slept..


----------



## Dean101

drakeParagon said:


> I recommend the watch commander even if there are two or more aboard doing watches... If anything happens to the person on watch on deck and they can't hit that button, then the second siren alarm wakes up everyone down below...
> 
> ..


Drake, that is a really great idea! If the person on watch was to fall overboard, or have any sort of incapacitating problem, it would minimize the response time of the other crew. I'm going to remember this. Thanks!


----------



## JonEisberg

drakeParagon said:


> When sleeping in the cockpit I use a wonderful product called the "Watch Commander" - I set a dial for how many minutes I want to sleep and when that time has elapsed it beeps lightly to wake me up... I get up and can usually check everything in about a minute or two... Then I press the big red button on the watch commander to reset the alarm and fall right back to sleep in about 5-10 seconds...
> 
> If the light beeping isn't enough to wake me within 60 seconds then a second piercing siren alarm goes off which is so loud that it's painful - Believe me, it doest just wake you up, it conditions you to automatically jump every time you hear that first lightly beeping alarm. You scramble to press that big red button so that you don't have to undergo that second painful alarm.. Hit the button, check everything, hit the button again, go to sleep and repeat... The only way to turn the watch commander off is by cutting 12 volt power to it from the ship's circuit breaker panel.
> 
> I never got so tired that the 2nd alarm couldn't wake me, or so tired that I was unable to effectively check everything after waking... I think I do that checking routine very automatically, and maybe don't really wake up 100% before going right back to sleep... If you're only awake for a couple of minutes at a time to check everything and then sleep soundly for 21 minutes then you're really sleeping the vast majority of the time, all day and night long... Of course if I found anything not right with the boat then I would snap to being fully awake to deal with it.
> 
> The timer settings on the watch commander's dial are for: 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18, 21, 30, 45, 60 or 90 minutes.
> 
> I only set the watch commander for as little as 3 minutes when sailing close to the coast or shipping lanes, or whenever I sensed there might be a danger, so the minority of the time. While 3 minutes asleep and then a couple minutes awake is incredibly taxing, it is worth a lot more than no sleep at all..
> 
> I recommend the watch commander even if there are two or more aboard doing watches... If anything happens to the person on watch on deck and they can't hit that button, then the second siren alarm wakes up everyone down below...
> 
> The only time I didn't keep my single handed watches like this was when hove-to in a storm, or when I was depending on another boat to keep watch while I slept..


Yup, the Watch Commander is an excellent product, for sure... It's a pity it's as expensive as it is, for something that is basically just a loud alarm clock... One can accomplish the same with one of the 12V alarms found through outlets specializing in products for truckers, the one I use has a setting that will wake the dead, as well... Not as convenient to re-set for another 20 minutes, perhaps - but if you're _really_ awake when you're doing so, that shouldn't be a problem, no? (grin)

Sorry, didn't mean to cast doubt on the validity of your claim about the sleep pattern on your trip... Everyone's different, of course, perhaps such a regimen does indeed work for you... But even an expert like Claudio Stampi would doubt anyone could go for a week or so, never sleeping more than 25 minutes at a stretch, without suffering a considerable degree of impairment as a result of sleep deprivation... All of the top solo racers attempt to manage their routine so they get at least the occasional spell of an hour or more of continuous, uninterrupted sleep, during passages of more than a day or so...

Perhaps a 3-minute nap is better than nothing, but I suppose what I'm questioning is the matter of sleeping at all, if one senses that one can really come into danger over such a short time span... Trust me, I know all too well how overpowering the desire to grab a few winks can become, but IMHO if you can't grab at least 20 minutes or so (the generally accepted minimum duration of a nap that is physiologically "effective"), perhaps you're not in a position that you should be sleeping at all, at least while continuing to sail... If you're close enough to other vessels, or the coast, where in only a few minutes you might have to take some action, well... that would seem a very poor time to be going to sleep at all, to me... (grin)

That's the primary reason why a singlehanded passage to a destination such as Bermuda is generally gonna be far less stressful than a coastwise passage, where you're in much closer proximity to an array of hazards and other traffic continuously... A series of 2 to 3 day hops down the East coast, for example, really takes it out of you to a greater extent than an equivalent duration offshore, and while it can offer the opportunities for frequent respites, it never affords one to get into the sort of "rhythm" one usually manages after being at sea for a couple of days...

Other's mileage may vary, of course, but that's the way it is for me...


----------



## smackdaddy

JonEisberg said:


> Again, somethings wrong there...


Dude, I'm starting to notice a pattern.


----------



## LandLocked66c

smackdaddy said:


> Dude, I'm starting to notice a pattern.


I notice pink sails and teal accents...


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## aeventyr60

I gotta call BS on this one. Sounds like the hallucinations are starting to come back...


----------



## JonEisberg

LandLocked66c said:


> I notice pink sails and teal accents...


LOL!

On Saturday afternoon, I came back inside at Ponce Inlet rather than continuing on out around Cape Canaveral... I'd had a pretty rough night on Friday off Georgia and N. Florida, and wasn't looking forward to dodging the procession of cruise ships returning and leaving Port Canaveral on Saturday night, either... But, I really wanted to stop that night and catch the NFL playoffs anyway, likely would have had trouble picking them up off Canaveral, so that's my story, and I'm sticking to it...

Spent the night near Titusville, and after about 2 hours of motoring early Sunday morning, I was blessed for the remainder of the day with a light to moderate northerly, blowing straight down the Indian River - which just happens to be the finest stretch of the ICW south of NC to do any sailing... Arrow straight channel for miles and miles, nothing but high level bridges south of Addison Point, I couldn't have possibly gotten a finer day's sailing DDW down to Sebastian... Sure, maybe 5 more knots of breeze would have been nice, but it was an extraordinarily relaxing day of sailing, with just enough breeze to maintain an average speed of perhaps 70% of hull speed, or what I would have been making under power...

Of course, I was eventually passed by a couple of bigger, faster boats... Both under power, driven from inside cockpit greenhouses... (grin) In fairness, one guy had actually unfurled his jib... Primarily just for visual effect, I suppose, it was hanging pretty limp as his speed under power nearly matched the apparent wind...

Needless to say, sailing through such a populated area on a Sunday NFL playoff day, I left the ambiguously gay spinnaker in the bag... Wing and wing was the way to go that day anyway, or at least that's my story... (grin)


----------



## LandLocked66c

JonEisberg said:


> Needless to say, sailing through such a populated area on a Sunday NFL playoff day, I left the ambiguously gay spinnaker in the bag... Wing and wing was the way to go that day anyway, or at least that's my story... (grin)


Good call Jon, Pink Spinnakers and the NFL just don't mix!

Although I do spy a DAYGLO PINK or Lavendar line on the starboard side - please explain yourself...


----------



## smackdaddy

I'm just glad I'm not the only one with dirty sails. Heh-heh.

And, Jon, if you really want to go all in - you need to ditch the dodger and be more like me. Spray in the face...manly scowl...shirtless icon...that kind of thing. You and your single walled greenhouse.


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## LandLocked66c

smackdaddy said:


> I'm just glad I'm not the only one with dirty sails. Heh-heh.


They are dirty because he actually sails his boat, not because it's in dusty Texas!


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## Melrna

Thanks for the great post that took me a few hours to read and totally messed up my day. 
Drake great sailing videos. Keep them up. The fatigue issue is huge that most people here don't realize and only read about. The 20 mins on/off is not for someone that has never done it before and shouldn't be done until practiced before hand. Like everything else in sailing it is an acquired skilled. 
I have a few questions for Drake.
1. How did you lose the main halyard?
2. Along with fatigue, eating the right food is also important in maintaining body and soul. What did you eat for those days at sea?

Observations: BIG freak-in question. Bermuda. It seems that they do not have any sort of rescue vessels on that island what so ever. My personnel friend who lost his boat only 50 miles offshore, Cha Cha and other who's vessels have become disabled seem to be at the mercy of other boats. How can this be for an island out in the middle of nowhere. Amazing. 

For those of you who think that Cha Cha is the except out there, need to rethink this. I cannot begin to tell you how many are out there. 

Great post, why I love SN and what in reality this bulletin is all about.


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## therapy23

drakeParagon said:


> The only time I didn't keep my single handed watches like this was when hove-to in a storm, or when I was depending on another boat to keep watch while I slept..


Is this just one more risk involved??? Because the big boats that will crush you do not slow much (wouldn't matter anyway would it?) and they are (and you are) harder to see in poor conditions.

It seems to me that in poor conditions your risk of being run down is higher than in good conditions.

I have done it only once in good conditions cause I was tired.

BTW

Awful nice of you to risk _your _life for ChaCha.


----------



## smackdaddy

therapy23 said:


> Is this just one more risk involved??? Because the big boats that will crush you do not slow much (wouldn't matter anyway would it?) and they are (and you are) harder to see in poor conditions.
> 
> It seems to me that in poor conditions your risk of being run down is higher than in good conditions.
> 
> I have done it only once in good conditions cause I was tired.
> 
> BTW
> 
> Awful nice of you to risk _your _life for ChaCha.


This brings up a good point. There are always a lot of contradictions in single-handing when it comes to watches. It's obviously impossible to do correctly according to the COLREGS.

I think Jon's point above about AIS being the singlehander's best friend is right on. But I think you have to broadcast as well as receive, especially if you're singlehanding, precisely because of what you mention above.

From what I understand, ships may ignore VHF, but they pay attention to AIS.


----------



## killarney_sailor

Responses to a couple of points made:
1. Bermuda has a number of vessels that could come in an emergency, including an offshore tug if you wanted to pay the bill. Like most places there is a big difference between what they would do to save a life and what they would do to save a boat. Harbour Radio are terrific and i have no complaints about them at all. Before you head to Bermuda they want you to fill out a pretty complex pre-arrival form that details a lot of things that you should have onboard to make a safe passage there. In most of the world, the local authorities will tend only to coordinate assistance efforts by vessels already in the area (and NYC to Bermuda is a pretty busy part of the ocean) unless there is a serious threat to life.

2. About collision dangers in good weather, we had a potentially close call heading south off the coast of Ecuador (lot of traffic along that shore btw). It was a lovely sunny day about noon with winds of maybe 12 knots. A Maersk container ship was coming right behind us and certainly would have hit run over us - the AIS cpa was basically zero. When they were about a mile away and we were just about to harden up and change course by 60° or so, I called the ship (nice with AIS to be able to use the name) and asked what there intentions were for passing us - port or starboard. A very startled Indian gentleman, after he recovered from his shock and looked outside said they would pass to starboard and they altered their course by something like 30°. Just goes to show that there are no completely safe situations.


----------



## blowinstink

smackdaddy said:


> I think Jon's point above about AIS being the singlehander's best friend is right on. But I think you have to broadcast as well as receive.


I think running active radar and receiving AIS is a decent compromise. Everything has a price tag and the price to broadcast AIS is pretty high (while reception only is comparatively low). Active radar is not cheap but it provides many of the notice benefits of AIS broadcasting and has so many other benefits. I imagine (I'd be happy to learn more / including that I am wrong) that most commercial shipping maintains both a radar and an AIS perimeter. We added AIS reception capabilities (+1 for the SH Matrix 2150) just before heading out to the Abacos and found it to be extremely useful. If I had to choose between AIS broadcasting and a radar system, I wouldn't hesitate to go with radar. I know you didn't present the question this way Smack, but it does all come down to $$$, don't it? That's where I'd put mine.


----------



## therapy23

blowinstink said:


> but it does all come down to $$$, don't it? That's where I'd put mine.


Yea.

And the batteries to fuel it.


----------



## smackdaddy

blowinstink said:


> I think running active radar and receiving AIS is a decent compromise. Everything has a price tag and the price to broadcast AIS is pretty high (while reception only is comparatively low). Active radar is not cheap but it provides many of the notice benefits of AIS broadcasting and has so many other benefits. I imagine (I'd be happy to learn more / including that I am wrong) that most commercial shipping maintains both a radar and an AIS perimeter. We added AIS reception capabilities (+1 for the SH Matrix 2150) just before heading out to the Abacos and found it to be extremely useful. If I had to choose between AIS broadcasting and a radar system, I wouldn't hesitate to go with radar. I know you didn't present the question this way Smack, but it does all come down to $$$, don't it? That's where I'd put mine.


Definitely comes down to money. And I honestly don't know much at all about these technologies. On the last couple of races I've done, we've had radar with AIS reception. And, if you're off-shore, that is technology that is DEFINITELY worth the money in my opinion.

I guess my point above on the AIS was more a question in the sense of how do you make yourself more visible to those things that might run you over...especially if you're single handing. Because if you're sleeping below, or hunkering down in a storm, it definitely helps to know you're visible - as opposed to _hoping_ you're visible.

So, I'm with you. I'd love to know more about it.


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## robinhood007

ahhh
tough realities i must say


----------



## -OvO-

I think that active radar is slightly more likely to alert commercial traffic to your presence than AIS is -- since it is possible for crews to configure AIS to ignore small craft, and I've heard enough stories to convince me that it's not uncommon.

broadcast AIS might be just a shade more likely to alert smaller vessels to your presence, since I think more of them have AIS receivers than radar.

Not having used marine radar, is it at all useful for weather forecasting?


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## killarney_sailor

I think to some extent it depends where you are sailing. If you are in Atlantic Canada or the North Sea where you get lots of fog then radar is a must. In the Caribbean and crossing the South Pacific we rarely turn the radar on and mainly use to see the size and shape of squalls - you often can avoid them if you know which way to zig (or zag). AIS transmission has proven very useful a number of times. We have seen freighters alter their course even before we can see the ship. It makes you appear 'big' in a sea filled with genuinely big vessels. I have cruised with and without AIS and feel it is a big plus. 

Our AIS was not expensive. It is the same one sold as the West Marine home brand but we got it at the Annapolis show a few years ago and I was pleasantly surprised by the low price.


----------



## svHyLyte

killarney_sailor said:


> ...
> 
> 2. About collision dangers in good weather, we had a potentially close call heading south off the coast of Ecuador (lot of traffic along that shore btw). It was a lovely sunny day about noon with winds of maybe 12 knots. A Maersk container ship was coming right behind us and certainly would have hit run over us - the AIS cpa was basically zero. When they were about a mile away and we were just about to harden up and change course by 60° or so, I called the ship (nice with AIS to be able to use the name) and asked what there intentions were for passing us - port or starboard. A very startled Indian gentleman, after he recovered from his shock and looked outside said they would pass to starboard and they altered their course by something like 30°. Just goes to show that there are no completely safe situations.


It is good to know that some ships actually monitor VHF. We have had occasion to try and speak with approaching ships and have received no response although other boats monitored our call indicated our signal was strong and clear. An approaching ship doing 18-20 knots indicated on radar that does not respond can be worrisome at night.


----------



## SVAuspicious

-OvO- said:


> since it is possible for crews to configure AIS to ignore small craft, and I've heard enough stories to convince me that it's not uncommon.


Not true. You're going to have to come up with some really good sources to validate that legend.

It is true that some older Class A AIS units did not properly show all the static data from Class B devices, specifically boat name. Those same units did show MMSI, position, course, and speed.

I have never seen any credible information to indicate that any AIS certified for use on any vessel required to carry it has any way to filter out Class B AIS transponders.


----------



## jackdale

SVAuspicious said:


> Not true. You're going to have to come up with some really good sources to validate that legend.
> 
> It is true that some older Class A AIS units did not properly show all the static data from Class B devices, specifically boat name. Those same units did show MMSI, position, course, and speed.
> 
> I have never seen any credible information to indicate that any AIS certified for use on any vessel required to carry it has any way to filter out Class B AIS transponders.


Is this the source?

Panbo: The Marine Electronics Weblog: Class B AIS filtering, the word from Dr. Norris


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## vega1860

There is one problem with AIS. In high traffic areas the alarm is constantly going off unless the radius is set very close - 1nm. If the transponders became ubiquitous on yachts, except far offshore, the alarm would be going off constantly and most would either turn it off or ignore it. The receiver is great but I am against having the transponder on a yacht smaller than, say 100 ft loa.


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## jackdale

Just did some more checking.

Apparently Steve Dashew sent out the information and then admitted that it was misinterpreted.

SetSail » Blog Archive » AIS A or B - A Disturbing Discovery

some other possible sources

Panbo: The Marine Electronics Weblog: The Class B AIS filtering myth revisited, arrrrrgh!


----------



## jackdale

Some more

Panbo: The Marine Electronics Weblog: Steve Dashew's IMO radar, an AIS myth resurfaces



> Oh my. This morning an email alerted me to this photo of an AIS Display Filter menu on a Furuno IMO-class FAR-2117 radar, and Steve Dashew's understandable misunderstanding of what it means. The seductive myth that ships have the technology to completely ignore Class B AIS transponders is back! And the comments that follow demonstrate just how destructive that myth is, like: "Wow. That is really disturbing. I am sure it is something that the manufacturers of Class B transceivers don't want us to know. I have been waiting for the Vesper Marine transceiver to become available - I might opt for the receive only unit now and save some $$$." *Here's the truth: No matter how that display filter is set, the 2117 radar will continue to track all AIS targets and will automatically display a filtered one -- in flashing red, with a buzzer, even! -- if it should enter the watch keeper's area of collision concern, which is exactly how the IMO intends to improve big ship AIS monitoring!...*


----------



## killarney_sailor

*Calling by name?*



svHyLyte said:


> It is good to know that some ships actually monitor VHF. We have had occasion to try and speak with approaching ships and have received no response although other boats monitored our call indicated our signal was strong and clear. An approaching ship doing 18-20 knots indicated on radar that does not respond can be worrisome at night.


Were you calling the ship by name? Before I had AIS onboard I had no success at all trying to call the "green container ship 10 miles south of XYZ Point". With the AIS I have had very ship I called (~10) answer promptly - one of the great things about the AIS. The one off Ecuador that I referred to answered the radio within 10 seconds even though no one was really paying attention to what was happening outside.


----------



## MedSailor

-OvO- said:


> I think that active radar is slightly more likely to alert commercial traffic to your presence than AIS is -- since it is possible for crews to configure AIS to ignore small craft, and I've heard enough stories to convince me that it's not uncommon.


Why would they ignore small craft? I expect my boat would at least compromise their anti-corrosion paint as they destroyed me. Corrosion on a steel boat sucks to fix.....

That's why when I register my AIS, under displacement and type of vessel I'm going to put "95,000tonnes, Nimitz-Class Warship"

For my boat's photo, I'll submit something like this:









MedSailor


----------



## MedSailor

vega1860 said:


> There is one problem with AIS. In high traffic areas the alarm is constantly going off unless the radius is set very close - 1nm. If the transponders became ubiquitous on yachts, except far offshore, the alarm would be going off constantly and most would either turn it off or ignore it. The receiver is great but I am against having the transponder on a yacht smaller than, say 100 ft loa.


It would be fine IMHO to turn off the alarms in an area crowded with shipping. Of course, in an area crowded with shipping, all but the most criminally negligent skippers will be keeping a watch with the Mark I eyeball and their X (and possibly S) band radars. In regard to the discussion on singlehanding, the singlehander also won't be napping much, if at all, in crowded shipping areas, so I would say this doesn't change it's huge usefulness for the singlehander trying to get extended periods of sleep when the coast "seems clear."

MedSailor


----------



## killarney_sailor

We tend to not have our alarm on with the AIS. It is just another thing to look at when on watch, like all around us for traffic and weather, and the other instruments. AIS appears on our chart plotter and we check this to see course and speed. We do this pretty often so no need to have the alarm on - unless there is some particular reason.

It was incredible coming into Colon harbor at the Caribbean end of the Panama Canal - there were probably two dozen plus little triangles and it took some care to figure out which symbol went with which ship - in particular, which ship that was moving since the vast majority were at anchor. Lots of fun for the Mark I eyeball and Version 0.9beta brain.


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## BentSailor

Damn Jack, I'm kind of proud at how quick I can locate a source of information on the interwebs, but your Google-fu is still an amazing thing to witness.

Less wordy, thanks for the details regarding AIS


----------



## smackdaddy

BentSailor said:


> Damn Jack, I'm kind of proud at how quick I can locate a source of information on the interwebs, but your Google-fu is still an amazing thing to witness.
> 
> Less wordy, thanks for the details regarding AIS


Jackdale kicks butt.


----------



## BentSailor

The "go to guy" for many a subject here. Though I have to say, you are providing him plenty of opportunity to shine, smack. Keep these threads coming!

Thanks too should go to drake - he put the videos up for you to find.


----------



## JonEisberg

LandLocked66c said:


> Good call Jon, Pink Spinnakers and the NFL just don't mix!


Au contraire...












LandLocked66c said:


> Although I do spy a DAYGLO PINK or Lavendar line on the starboard side - please explain yourself...


Those are my Hot Pink jib sheets from Marlow, one of the nicest ropes I've ever found, they've lasted forever... I wish they would actually fade just a bit, but once they've made the cover of CRUISING WORLD, too late to swap them out now... (grin)



smackdaddy said:


> I'm just glad I'm not the only one with dirty sails. Heh-heh.


C'mon, dude - that's what even a brand-new 3DL sail is gonna look like, strongly backlit by the Florida sun... (grin)


----------



## Capt Len

I've been following ships locations AIS on this site Login .It appears to me that ships either turn off their units at sea, it only works within VHF range or ,or what? Is there a better site? If a ship doesn't show on your plotter does that mean it's not a hazard ? If it does show but the information is several hours old, what then? Maybe it's a ' hard to teach an old dog thing'.


----------



## killarney_sailor

*AIS coverage*



Capt Len said:


> I've been following ships locations AIS on this site Login .It appears to me that ships either turn off their units at sea, it only works within VHF range or ,or what? Is there a better site? If a ship doesn't show on your plotter does that mean it's not a hazard ? If it does show but the information is several hours old, what then? Maybe it's a ' hard to teach an old dog thing'.


Don't know how internet sites showing AIS positions work but at sea the data you get changes every minute or so and we seem to get it from big ships for 20+ miles, so VHF range. All freighters have it and many pleasure craft (all the big ones and a growing number of ordinary folks size). It seems rare with fishing boats, even the really big ones. I suspect they may have it onboard but have it turned off so the competition does not know where they are fishing.


----------



## CharlieCobra

smackdaddy said:


> I always catch crap for this - but I honestly don't think it's possible to really "be prepared" - in the true meaning of the word - before setting off.
> 
> I don't care how good of a sailor you are, you're going to miss something that was right in front of your face. You're going to overlook a problem that had a simple fix. You're going to make a bad decision when the crap hits the fan. You're going to have not seen a weak spot that had been hidden. You're going to screw up. Period. Look at the VOR.
> 
> To think any other way is pure hubris.
> 
> Drake's problems started when he got hit with a fairly serious storm (F8?). It was that single moment that exposed all the problems (reefing, exhaustion, drogue, chute, no ditch bag, etc.) all of which cascaded very quickly. This to the point that he was ready to ditch what obviously turned out to be a rock-solid boat. You would "never do that"? Okay.
> 
> Let's just take the sails and the drogue for example. If you are _really going to prepare yourself_ for what happened to him, you actually need to intentionally take your boat out into an off-shore gale of 40+ knots and 20' seas. And you need to practice...with the sails....with the drogue...and hope that something doesn't break or you don't blow it. That's the bottom line.
> 
> Think about it. It's always easy to take this "how could a person go off-shore without experience" and/or "I would never..." viewpoint when it comes to systems, etc. - but there's only one way to gain the experience of how to deal with a storm.
> 
> So, who around here is going to _really_ practice and prepare...and walk that walk...intentionally?


Did ya really ask that question?


----------



## smackdaddy

CharlieCobra said:


> Did ya really ask that question?


Heh-heh. I mean _besides_ you.


----------



## drakeParagon

Melrna said:


> Thanks for the great post that took me a few hours to read and totally messed up my day.
> Drake great sailing videos. Keep them up. The fatigue issue is huge that most people here don't realize and only read about. The 20 mins on/off is not for someone that has never done it before and shouldn't be done until practiced before hand. Like everything else in sailing it is an acquired skilled.
> I have a few questions for Drake.
> 1. How did you lose the main halyard?
> 2. Along with fatigue, eating the right food is also important in maintaining body and soul. What did you eat for those days at sea?
> 
> Observations: BIG freak-in question. Bermuda. It seems that they do not have any sort of rescue vessels on that island what so ever. My personnel friend who lost his boat only 50 miles offshore, Cha Cha and other who's vessels have become disabled seem to be at the mercy of other boats. How can this be for an island out in the middle of nowhere. Amazing.
> 
> For those of you who think that Cha Cha is the except out there, need to rethink this. I cannot begin to tell you how many are out there.
> 
> Great post, why I love SN and what in reality this bulletin is all about.


Hi Melrna,

Even after many years of cruising, I still ended up forgetting to check for a stopper knot in the main halyard before pushing off... I should have had a checklist... I was trying to reef in a squall... In pitch black darkness with hellish thrash all around, I un-cleated the main halyard and started pulling down the main.. In the process I somehow let go of the halyard and BOOM! It flew up the mast.. A little stopper knot could have averted that whole mess..

I usually eat better offshore than I do in port! If the weather is nice then I love to cook at sea. I also enjoy preparing for cooking at sea before I push off. I have a full time freezer (Technautics Cool Blue) stocked with a full variety of meats, sandwich cold cuts, breads and tortillas.. I have dozens of gallons of various rices, pastas, nuts, oatmeal and cereal.. I carry hundreds of cans of various meats, fish, beans, fruit, and corn, tomatoes and soups.. I usually take on many dozens of big boxes of milk and orange juice that don't require refrigeration before opening. I have all the spices and sauces imaginable for cooking, and just before pushing off I load up the fridge with fresh fruit and veggies, and take aboard as many fresh eggs as I think I'll need.. I drink water from my tanks, but have a great water filter plumbed in before the faucet so it tastes great... and don't forget cookies and potato chips, and instant cup o noodle soups..

In a storm I can't cook so then it's just sandwiches, fruit, nuts, cookies, cereal and milk, cheese and crackers, sardines, or maybe boiling water for instant cup o noodle soups. In the worst of being hove to, I just popped the lids off of cans of Progresso soup and inhaled them straight over the sink before crawling back to my berth..

I certainly agree that cat napping is an acquired skill. I'm certainly much better at it now than I was when I first started single handing in 2003. On my first offshore single handed sail I woke up in the cockpit from the deepest 10 minute sleep and for the first 60 seconds I had no idea where I was... The alarm was going off but I didn't even know what it was or how to turn it off... I just sat there, totally perplexed and confused and kept looking all around until it hit me all of a sudden - "Oh my god I'm in sailboat at sea!" That only happened once.. in the beginning.. good thing I was clipped in...

I also find it surprising that Bermuda doesn't seem to have an offshore rescue boat or helicopter at the ready... They seem to have just the pilot boat and a couple of tugs which don't usually get sent out... But those guys at Bermuda Radio are certainly the masters of monitoring who's out there, assisting in any way by radio, monitoring the weather, and coordinating vessels that can assist in emergencies... I've heard of so many sailing vessels which had to be abandoned in Bermuda waters, with crews rescued onto freighters which were rerouted by Bermuda Radio. Those freighters would then continue on their voyage with the people they rescued aboard, on to Europe or even further...

I'm thrilled that people are enjoying my cruising life videos. Thank you for your encouragement! Many more episodes in editing right now, so please stay tuned!


----------



## Minnewaska

I sort of understand why Bermuda doesn't pay for a Coast Guard. Their citizens would essentially be underwriting dopes like Cha Cha, more than their own. They are just far enough to be adventurous and close enough to be enticing. Same for private pilots. There are small private aircraft that could make it there,but would be in the drink if they got lost or misjudged headwinds. It seems Bermuda solved that problem by discontinuing the sale of avgas many years ago (jet only now).


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## -OvO-

drakeParagon said:


> I usually eat better offshore than I do in port! If the weather is nice then I love to cook at sea. I also enjoy preparing for cooking at sea before I push off. I have a full time freezer (Technautics Cool Blue) stocked with a full variety of meats, sandwich cold cuts, breads and tortillas.. I have dozens of gallons of various rices, pastas, nuts, oatmeal and cereal.. I carry hundreds of cans of various meats, fish, beans, fruit, and corn, tomatoes and soups.. I usually take on many dozens of big boxes of milk and orange juice that don't require refrigeration before opening. I have all the spices and sauces imaginable for cooking, and just before pushing off I load up the fridge with fresh fruit and veggies, and take aboard as many fresh eggs as I think I'll need.. I drink water from my tanks, but have a great water filter plumbed in before the faucet so it tastes great... and don't forget cookies and potato chips, and instant cup o noodle soups..


Dude. If that girl of yours doesn't work out, I'll go for a sail with you...


----------



## drakeParagon

Melrna said:


> 2. Along with fatigue, eating the right food is also important in maintaining body and soul. What did you eat for those days at sea?


Even though we didn't have any eggs or fresh meats or vegetables (except for onions, potatoes, and tomatoes) I really did enjoy and appreciate the food that Eric Forsyth cooked aboard his Westsail 42 'Fiona' when we sailed from Ireland to Portugal...

Eric Forsyth interview, part 4 - YouTube


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## smackdaddy

Some new videos from Drake on his Vagabond 42 adventure. Lots of crazy stuff going on with the boat - and the rtrip. But a few shots of Kraken can kill the pains of ownership:

Vagabond 42 Fellowship Ep 1: Introduction - YouTube

Looks like he'll be on a Swan 42 in the next series.

Go the Drake!


----------



## Minnewaska

smackdaddy said:


> Some new videos from Drake on his Vagabond 42 adventure. Lots of crazy stuff going on with the boat - and the rtrip. But a few shots of Kraken can kill the pains of ownership:
> 
> Vagabond 42 Fellowship Ep 1: Introduction - YouTube
> 
> Looks like he'll be on a Swan 42 in the next series.
> 
> Go the Drake!


I've watched a few episodes. That is one cluttered boat. I couldn't stand being aboard. I know that some were shot from the dock, but even those underway look pretty messy. And all the broken stuff. Yikes.


----------



## smackdaddy

I ran across another handful of sailing videos that are pretty good:

RLWinters76 - YouTube


----------



## MedSailor

I found another good one. 4 videos of 3 regular guys on a 37ft Ketch on a 44day passage from Neah Bay Washington to the Marquesas. The boat isn't fancy and the guys seem like normal folks. I like that the video covers the true day to day life at sea. They document everything form the disposal of trash and doing laundry, to doing minor surgery aboard. They also document the highs and lows of their moods.

"I was prepared for everything. Heavy gear, storm sails. What I wasn't prepared for was crawling along with the sails slamming all the time."






MedSailor

PS One small piece of medical advice. DON'T get excited to stitch up every little cut on a boat. It drives me crazy that the first thing everybody wants to put in a remote medicine kit is suturing supplies. Stitching up a wound greatly increases risk of infection and it's often better to leave it open (even in a hospital setting it is often left open if dirty).

Watching stuff fall onto their "sterile field" in the cockpit was giving me hives. If you have a wound clean it COPIOUSLY with pressurized water using a syringe. 1-2 liters of water at a minimum. Don't apply any idodine, neosporin, hiblclens etc, use clean water only.Then close loosely with steri-strips (if you can apply tape with the skill of a kindergarderner you can use these). Finally, give oral antibiotics that have a high bioavailability in the skin and target staph and mycobacterium marinum. Docycycline is one good choice.

This for cleaning with water (might want eye protection for splatter)









Followed by this if the wound is really open wide (they usually stay on for a week or two):









Followed by this:


----------



## itsaboat

Good video and good medical advice, thanks Med. I don't want to highjack this thread, but I had a question about this:


MedSailor said:


> Finally, give oral antibiotics that have a high bioavailability in the skin and target staph and mycobacterium marinum. Docycycline is one good choice.


This is just for discussion and my own edification, not to question your advice. The tetracyclines do have good bioavailability in skin, but for that reason and the cyclic rings they often have the adverse effect of sunlight sensitivity. For land-based patients you can tell them to stay indoors, but this is harder to do for sailors. I'm not an MD, but I teach antimicrobial pharmacology to med students so I am more familiar with that aspect as opposed to practice. Are there other antibiotics that you would suggest throwing in the kit for skin wounds?


----------



## MedSailor

Off topic:

Yes you are absolutely right that Doxy will cause sun sensitivity in some, but not all patients. The quinolones (Cipro, levofloxacin) can do that too.

Unfortunately the question of which antibiotic to administer following a wound that has been contaminated by salt-water is NOT an easy one to answer. Ideally your ABX should cover Staph Aureus and Beta hemolytic Strep (not water based pathogens, but still the most common soft tissue pathogens) and the 5 most common water bugs:

From UpToDate Online:
_"...five bacteria that most commonly produce soft tissue infections in association with exposure to water or water-related animals. These include Aeromonas species, Edwardsiella tarda, Erysipelothrix rhusiopathiae, Vibrio vulnificus, and Mycobacterium marinum."_

In order to cover the 2 common bugs and the 5 water bugs UpToDate recommends the following (hold on to your hat):

_"Empiric antibiotic treatment - No randomized controlled studies have evaluated empiric antibiotic regimens for treatment of soft tissue infections following water exposure. Treatment regimens are based on the most likely organisms to cause infection in this setting, in vitro susceptibility studies, and treatment case series with some organisms. We recommend the following antibiotics for initial empiric therapy whether treatment is ambulatory (oral) or inpatient (parenteral):

Either a *first generation cephalosporin* (cephalexin 500 mg orally four times daily or cefazolin 1 g IV every eight hours) OR clindamycin (300 mg orally four times daily or 600 mg IV every eight hours, in those patients with immediate hypersensitivity reactions to penicillin)

*PLUS Levofloxacin* (750 mg once daily)

*PLUS either of the following* if the epidemiologic risk is present:
Metronidazole (500 mg four times daily) if exposure to sewage-contaminated water or if soil-contaminated wound; (not necessary to include if the regimen includes clindamycin) OR
*Doxycycline (100 mg twice daily) for coverage of Vibrio species if seawater exposure*"_

That's a lot of antibiotics for a cut finger. Enough to probably kill the bacteria in the person sitting next to you too.

They don't actually recommend coverage of M. Marinum from the outset, though I think it might be prudent because we won't be doing invitro culturing on the boat. Doxy isn't the best for M. Marinum (clarithromycin and Rifampin are) but it's got decent activity against it and seems like a good compromise choice to me considering it has good activity against our other actors.:

_"Empiric antibiotic coverage should not include coverage for M. marinum infection in most cases, since the presentation is subacute and without associated systemic toxicity. Instead, a specimen (eg, lesion aspirate, biopsy) should be obtained and the microbiology laboratory notified that M. marinum is suspected so that appropriate culture conditions will be included. If acid fast staining is positive, or if the exposure history and physical examination findings suggest M. marinum infection (eg, laceration from an aquarium), then we suggest that specific treatment for M. marinum infection should be initiated."_

To directly answer your question with a bit of a "seat of the pants answer" I would say that acceptable choices for monotherapy other than Docycycline (100mg twice daily) would be Bactrim DS twice daily, or Keflex 500mg 4 times daily all for 7-14days depending on wound healing time, immune status, and contamination of wound.

With any monotherapy on a salt water wound you'd be rolling the dice. That said, it should be noted by way of observation, that many many thousands of salt-water wounds heal just fine with no antibiotic therapy at all. I think you have to judge the aggressiveness of your therapy based on the severity of the wound and the immunocompetence of your patient. Certainly if fascia is involved, or if the patient was a diabetic or alcoholic, I would go all out with multi-drug therapy, with a superficial wound in an immunocompetent patient I might only clean and observe. For most common (but non-trivial) wounds I would clean, initiate monotherapy with Doxy, Bactrim or Keflex, monitor and NOT suture.

Thanks for the segue. Infectious Disease and antibiotic therapy are a hobby of mine (probably because it's so complex and it blends art/clinical judgement with science). We should probably get back on topic though. 

MedSailor


----------



## St Anna

thanks medsailor for a great and informative post.
cheers


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## smackdaddy

You guys don't ever worry about hijacking a thread. This is great info and fits right into the theme of "reality at sea".


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## itsaboat

Good stuff, Med, thanks.

If you haven't, you should check out Mark Crislip's blog.. Most of his ID case studies are pretty funny.


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## MedSailor

itsaboat said:


> Good stuff, Med, thanks.
> 
> If you haven't, you should check out Mark Crislip's blog.. Most of his ID case studies are pretty funny.


GOLD pure gold! (for an ID nerd like me)  If you don't see me posting on sailnet for a while, you'll know why.

I'm still trying to answer the question I have posed for myself (and to countless doctors): "If you were to go remote regions of the world on a boat, and you could only take 3 antibiotics, which ones would they be."

His website might help me find the elusive answer....

MedSailor


----------



## thesocket

This thread may be getting a little long in the tooth, but here's a slight update regarding Cha Cha... for those interested.

Striking but Abandoned, Yacht Could be Claimed by the City - Newport Now


----------



## thesocket

On another note...

@ drakeParagon - There seem to be a lot of armchair sailors who are quick to point out all the negatives of your journey on Sailnet, but I'd personally like to commend you. As one of those not currently in a position to "live the dream," I am envious of your ability and resources to actually be out there rather than sitting land-locked - hoping _that_ day comes.

Thanks for the videos, and I hope to see more in the future.


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## MedSailor

thesocket said:


> On another note...
> 
> @ drakeParagon - There seem to be a lot of armchair sailors who are quick to point out all the negatives of your journey on Sailnet, but I'd personally like to commend you. As one of those not currently in a position to "live the dream," I am envious of your ability and resources to actually be out there rather than sitting land-locked - hoping _that_ day comes.
> 
> Thanks for the videos, and I hope to see more in the future.












Question: Would I have done it the same way Drake did it while sleep deprived and out on the big blue ocean?

My honest answer: I don't know, because I'm not there, and that IS the point and that IS why the video is valuable. Because he WAS there.

I can tell you from experience that sleep deprivation WILL do strange things to you. I once worked 124hrs in a 7 day period and right at the end of the week I actually drove the ambulance away from the gas station while the diesel pump was still attached. I tell you, it looks different from the armchair than from the helm. I respect Drake for making the videos and not editing out the bad bits.

MedSailor


----------



## travlin-easy

MedSailor said:


> I'm still trying to answer the question I have posed for myself (and to countless doctors): "If you were to go remote regions of the world on a boat, and you could only take 3 antibiotics, which ones would they be."
> MedSailor


Having spent more than 15 years in the field of medicine, the first choice would be Doxycycline 



. Outstanding drug with very few side effects and the only known cure for Lyme Disease.

Augmentin Augmentin Official FDA information, side effects and uses. would be my second choice, particularly if you have dental problems.

A broad spectrum antibiotic such as Ciprofloxacin 



 to cover the oddball infections that don't tend to respond to conventional treatment is always good to have on hand.

Add to the above list ordinary Bayer Aspirin. It really aids in lots of situations, including some of the more serious situations such as heart attacks and strokes. It's a wonderful anti-inflammatory drug, excellent pain reliever, and very few side effects.

Hope this helps,

Gary


----------



## MedSailor

Nice choices! I hadn't really considered adding augmentin to my list, but it's an intriguing possibility especially since it has some activity against anaerobes, which is hard to find in anything besides metranidiazole (and that's not good for anything else).

My top three choices so far are:

1. Doxycycline: I love this drug, and it's currently under-used in medicine (which is a good thing for those of us who like it). Great for skin infections as it has good activity against staph and strep and has high bioavailbility in the skin (thus the sunburn problem). Very effective malaria and traveller's diarrhea prophylaxis, works great for pneumonia and urinary tract infections. In case of the end of the world it works for Anthrax, Plague, brucellosis, tularemia, and cholera.  Cheap as chips too. Heck, I'd spread it on my toast!

2. A quinolone. Cipro would be fine and is cheap but Levofloxacin and Moxifloxacin have expanded coverage. Coverage for bugs that you may not need, in our scenario, so again, Cipro would be fine. Bioavalibility is nearly as good orally as IV and tissue penetration is good everywhere! What's not to like.

3. Ertapenim: When you need a gun, why not use a cannon? This antibiotic choice could be construed as cheating, since it's not an oral antibiotic, but it can be given as a once daily intra-muscular injection. It has excelent anerobic coverage, which nothing else besides metranidazole has and works for dang near everything. It can even be used for intra-abdominal infections, so if you appendix bursts, you have a shot at survival. Another bonus here, is that if said appendix bursts, you're not likely to be keeping down oral antibiotics anyway.

The above list would essentially be used as follows:

1. Sorta' sick or exotic use (such as anthrax/plague) give doxi.
2. Sicker than usual but not actively dying, give the quinolone, or 1&2.
3. Trying to die, or anarobes are highly suspected, give door number 3.

Honorable mentions would go to:

1. Metranidazole. The anerobic coverage you desire, without killing every bacteria in you and the person sitting next to you, as Ertapenem will do.
2. Keflex. Sometimes a skin infection is just a skin infection, and you don't need the big guns messing stuff up in your gut. Or maybe you even have a bone infection from a broken bone or broken finger, and when that's the case you want REALLY good staph coverage and bone bioavalibility. It's dirt cheap too. 
3. Ceftriaxone (Rocephin) Same as keflex but much wider spectrum and is given by injection. Great all around drug, used every day in the hospital and is a heavy hitter to be sure. Also the only surefire treatment for meningitis.

You get a full 10 points for your suggested ABX and a bonus 5 points for being one of the few Doxy fans out there! They say it's old-school but I say it's better than sliced bread. Thanks for playing!

MedSailor

PS 10 more points for pointing out that Asprin is THE most important drug to have on any boat. Even if you're young and don't have heart problems you could save someone else some day.

Benadryl is also a good one. Great for allergies, even anaphylaxis (take 4), stops itch, helps you sleep, works for sinus congestion from hay-fever or a cold, works quite well for sea-sickness, and a crushed pill is a great topical anesthetic for wounds, or crushed and mixed with water is a topical anesthetic for dental pain or esophageal refulx stomach pain.


----------



## JonEisberg

MedSailor said:


> Question: Would I have done it the same way Drake did it while sleep deprived and out on the big blue ocean?
> 
> My honest answer: I don't know, because I'm not there, and that IS the point and that IS why the video is valuable. Because he WAS there.
> 
> I can tell you from experience that sleep deprivation WILL do strange things to you. I once worked 124hrs in a 7 day period and right at the end of the week I actually drove the ambulance away from the gas station while the diesel pump was still attached. I tell you, it looks different from the armchair than from the helm. I respect Drake for making the videos and not editing out the bad bits.
> 
> MedSailor


Perhaps it's time we attempt some sort of definition of what constitutes an "armchair sailor", as the term is so often leveled at those critical of others in certain situations...

Does mere criticism alone, or offering anything other than praise, define the armchair sailor? Or, the fact that one "wasn't there"? The latter would make _everyone_ not aboard a particular boat, in a particular situation, an armchair sailor, of course...

As one in this thread who was "critical" of certain aspects of what Drake did, I can only assume I might be one of the Armchair Sailors the socket had in mind in his last post... However, it is simply my belief that a series of 3 minute naps does not constitute a very effective sleep strategy for the singlehanded sailor. Is that opinion invalidated due to the fact "I was not there", or is it better to simply withhold such an opinion out of some sort of deferential respect for Drake's most admirable candor, or lest I be branded as just another Armchair Sailor?

For the record, I NEVER post here from the comfort of an armchair... Usually from a desk, or perhaps from a hotel room or an airport boarding gate, or in this instance, from the nav station on a Cabo Rico 42... (grin)


----------



## smackdaddy

JonEisberg said:


> Perhaps it's time we attempt some sort of definition of what constitutes an "armchair sailor", as the term is so often leveled at those critical of others in certain situations...
> 
> Does mere criticism alone, or offering anything other than praise, define the armchair sailor? Or, the fact that one "wasn't there"? The latter would make _everyone_ not aboard a particular boat, in a particular situation, an armchair sailor, of course...
> 
> As one in this thread who was "critical" of certain aspects of what Drake did, I can only assume I might be one of the Armchair Sailors the socket had in mind in his last post...


I think it has more to do with the attitude of the critic than anything else. If the critic only criticizes - without finding anything redeeming in the account or, worse, without acknowledging his own foibles, you have an A-S...even if that A-S has 100K miles under his keel. Worse, if the critic holds the "I would never..." or "What kind of dolt would..." stance in his criticism, you have an A-S, because it's the sea out there..._"he will"_ make similar mistakes.

Basically, if a sailor presents himself as "having arrived" at all things sailing, the only place he has really arrived at is his armchair.

IMUSO. Heh-heh.


----------



## thesocket

An "armchair sailor" falls in to the same category as "armchair quarterback" or "Monday morning quarterback." i.e., someone who (after-the-fact) sits in judgement, criticizing the performance of another - without having been there.

We're _all_ armchair sailors at one time or another.

Drake was the skipper of that boat, and it's obvious he's been around enough to know his systems and his limits. He is in charge of his vessel and the decisions he makes aboard. He also has to face any consequences for his decisions and actions. Picking those decisions apart because they don't constitute _your_ limits, or textbook limits doesn't change anything. It was his decision.

Single-handing on such passages is always risky - no matter how much experience you have or how wide a safety margin you plan in to your journey. Everyone has their own abilities and limits, which may not align perfectly with those of another. That's how it is on the water, that's how it is on land.

Taking away personal lessons from the experiences of others is one thing, but taking a pious and self-righteous position that you are beyond such elements is another.

...there's my armchair sailor rant for the day.



JonEisberg said:


> Perhaps it's time we attempt some sort of definition of what constitutes an "armchair sailor", as the term is so often leveled at those critical of others in certain situations...
> 
> Does mere criticism alone, or offering anything other than praise, define the armchair sailor? Or, the fact that one "wasn't there"? The latter would make _everyone_ not aboard a particular boat, in a particular situation, an armchair sailor, of course...
> 
> As one in this thread who was "critical" of certain aspects of what Drake did, I can only assume I might be one of the Armchair Sailors the socket had in mind in his last post... However, it is simply my belief that a series of 3 minute naps does not constitute a very effective sleep strategy for the singlehanded sailor. Is that opinion invalidated due to the fact "I was not there", or is it better to simply withhold such an opinion out of some sort of deferential respect for Drake's most admirable candor, or lest I be branded as just another Armchair Sailor?
> 
> For the record, I NEVER post here from the comfort of an armchair... Usually from a desk, or perhaps from a hotel room or an airport boarding gate, or in this instance, from the nav station on a Cabo Rico 42... (grin)


----------



## JonEisberg

smackdaddy said:


> I think it has more to do with the attitude of the critic than anything else. If the critic only criticizes - without finding anything redeeming in the account or, worse, without acknowledging his own foibles, you have an A-S...even if that A-S has 100K miles under his keel. Worse, if the critic holds the "I would never..." or "What kind of dolt would..." stance in his criticism, you have an A-S, because it's the sea out there..._"he will"_ make similar mistakes.
> 
> Basically, if a sailor presents himself as "having arrived" at all things sailing, the only place he has really arrived at is his armchair.
> 
> IMUSO. Heh-heh.


Yup, that's pretty much my take on it, as well... I'm not inclined to review the entire contents of this thread, however, but I doubt there's much in there that can rightfully be characterized as such... Perhaps someone will point to such an example? (grin)

However, I think within reason, it's legitimate for someone who was not there to still state without equivocation something to the effect of "Well, I would _NEVER_ do such and such..."

The example of RULE 62 comes to mind... I have difficulty imagining the circumstances, short of having someone holding a gun to my head, under which I would have attempted to enter that cut, at night, in those conditions... So, I think it's fair for me to say, that I would NEVER have attempted to do what he did, under those or similar circumstances...

Likewise, I think I can reasonably claim that I would NEVER depart Mexico for Hawaii, aboard a boat like that Yorktown, without having ever so much as having done an overnight shakedown cruise...

Then again, maybe that's just me.... (grin)


----------



## Barquito

If Payton Manning critisized Tim Tebow's choices in a game, it would be Monday Morning Quarterbacking. However, it is in a different category than if I critisized Tim Tebow's choices in a game. I think it matters what your attitude is, and if you have been "out there".


----------



## smackdaddy

JonEisberg said:


> Yup, that's pretty much my take on it, as well... I'm not inclined to review the entire contents of this thread, however, but I doubt there's much in there that can rightfully be characterized as such... Perhaps someone will point to such an example? (grin)
> 
> However, I think within reason, it's legitimate for someone who was not there to still state without equivocation something to the effect of "Well, I would _NEVER_ do such and such..."
> 
> The example of RULE 62 comes to mind... I have difficulty imagining the circumstances, short of having someone holding a gun to my head, under which I would have attempted to enter that cut, at night, in those conditions... So, I think it's fair for me to say, that I would NEVER have attempted to do what he did, under those or similar circumstances...
> 
> Likewise, I think I can reasonably claim that I would NEVER depart Mexico for Hawaii, aboard a boat like that Yorktown, without having ever so much as having done an overnight shakedown cruise...
> 
> Then again, maybe that's just me.... (grin)


Good points. On the other hand, though you might "NEVER do" A-or-B (i.e. - repeat a specific mistake), you, and/or any other seasoned sailor, will most likely do something, or miss something at some point that puts you and/or your boat in somewhat similar peril. You have to look no further than incidents such as the recent Farallones tragedy, Skip Allan's rescue, or the many other very seasoned sailors who have run into trouble.

I think that's really the main point here. While A-S'rs are scoffing at all those things "they'd never do", there's still a very long list of things that can take them down...things they're simply overlooking, or worse, dismissing as impossibilities.

Hubris don't float. And it's a major buzzkill at parties.


----------



## LandLocked66c

I ONLY post on SN from an armchair!


----------



## dmcMaine

smackdaddy said:


> Hubris don't float. And it's a major buzzkill at parties.


That's it Smack... if I ever do buy a boat this summer, I'm renaming it "Hubris". 

I think there is a definite line with the A-S thing. Case studies, and lessons learned are one thing. Shoulda-woulda-why did ya type talk is something entirely different. The first is an attempt at objectively looking at what happened hopefully without judgement, the second is an attempt to elevate yourself over the subject of the comment.

I know, personally, that when I'm talking about some incident or mishap I try to err on the side of sounding like a USCG mission briefing than on sounding like Cliff Claven downing one at the nearest Cheers.


----------



## AdamLein

smackdaddy said:


> I think it has more to do with the attitude of the critic than anything else. If the critic only criticizes - without finding anything redeeming in the account or, worse, without acknowledging his own foibles, you have an A-S...even if that A-S has 100K miles under his keel.


This is a terrible definition. Basically if you brown-nose a bit, you earn some points, and then you get to spend those points criticizing?

The name is clearly meant to suggest a person who spends significantly more time sitting in the comfort of their home and speculating about sailing, than they do actually sailing. Anybody who limits their criticism to their expertise and experience is not an armchair sailor, regardless of whether they say enough nice things to balance out the mean things they say.


----------



## smackdaddy

AdamLein said:


> This is a terrible definition. Basically if you brown-nose a bit, you earn some points, and then you get to spend those points criticizing?
> 
> *The name is clearly meant *to suggest a person who spends significantly more time sitting in the comfort of their home and speculating about sailing, than they do actually sailing. Anybody who limits their criticism to their expertise and experience is not an armchair sailor, regardless of whether they say enough nice things to balance out the mean things they say.


..clearly meant...? That's the issue I suppose. Different people seem to think it means different things. I think A-Sism can easily span the extremes of inexperienced speculation and uber-experienced hyper-criticism (at least in the context of a forum like this). After all, in either case, it's speculation isn't it?

The amount of time spent in the armchair versus the sailboat doesn't really matter in this regard.

See, I personally don't care as much about being "nice" as I do about being "objective". That's what I meant by my comment above. Objective is being able to see (and acknowledge) both the good and bad in things, as well as your own faults and mistakes.


----------



## JonEisberg

smackdaddy said:


> Good points. On the other hand, though you might "NEVER do" A-or-B (i.e. - repeat a specific mistake), you, and/or any other seasoned sailor, will most likely do something, or miss something at some point that puts you and/or your boat in somewhat similar peril. You have to look no further than incidents such as the recent Farallones tragedy, Skip Allan's rescue, or the many other very seasoned sailors who have run into trouble.
> 
> I think that's really the main point here. While A-S'rs are scoffing at all those things "they'd never do", there's still a very long list of things that can take them down...things they're simply overlooking, or worse, dismissing as impossibilities.
> 
> Hubris don't float. And it's a major buzzkill at parties.


Well, no way am I gonna revisit this entire thread, but I've taken some time to review a considerable portion of it... Sorry, but I'm just not seeing any real chest beating from anyone of the "I'd never do _THAT_ variety... Rather, most of the criticism is more in the form of the "well, this is another example of why the value of a shakedown cruise in advance of such a passage cannot be overstated..." variety...

I was critical of his failure to sort out his windvane prior to departure, for example... Well, I've done many, far dumber things than that in the past, some of them even more than once... but, I'm just not seeing where simply pointing out such errors or oversights necessarily falls into the category of second-guessing, or Monday morning quarterbacking...

In addition, I think the distinction should be made between judgements made, and "occurrences"... It's one thing to claim, for example, "I would _NEVER_ cruise a place like Labrador without paper charts..." Not everyone might agree, but that's simply the way I roll... But if I were to say "I've learned my lesson, have configured a bulletproof preventer setup, and will _NEVER_ again suffer an accidental jibe...", well... then _that_ would be an Armchair Sailor talking, one with precious little respect for the infinite variety of surprises the sea might have in store for you...


----------



## MedSailor

smackdaddy said:


> I think it has more to do with the attitude of the critic than anything else. If the critic only criticizes - without finding anything redeeming in the account or, worse, without acknowledging his own foibles, you have an A-S...even if that A-S has 100K miles under his keel. Worse, if the critic holds the "I would never..." or "What kind of dolt would..." stance in his criticism, you have an A-S, because it's the sea out there..._"he will"_ make similar mistakes.
> 
> Basically, if a sailor presents himself as "having arrived" at all things sailing, the only place he has really arrived at is his armchair.
> 
> IMUSO. Heh-heh.


John Esiberg,

Smakky pretty much nailed my take on the issue. My comments weren't aimed at you, by the way. It's been long enough since I've reviewed the thread that I've forgotten who had what opinion on the issue.

My intent was to refer to MYSELF as the armchair sailor in this case. If you look again at all the "I" and "me" statements in my post, I hope that it looks a little less accusatory. I have opinions based on what I've read, and I can try extrapolating my coastal and inshore experience to his situation, but I have not sailed offshore, and have not single-handed offshore. So I consider my comments to be those of an armchair sailor. My relating of my seriously idiotic move on the ambulance was an attempt at further self-depreciation (I'm half British, so it's a habit) as well as extrapolation of my experience (in sleep deprivation in this case) to fit his experience.

I was NOT trying to say that I thought he did everything right, I only wanted to say that I appreciated the story told as it was, and that I didn't feel qualified to criticize. Others with more similar/relevant may.

My comments were an attempt to honor the value I place in honest accounts of experience, especially mistakes. Much is learned from mistakes and often people aren't willing to tell all (so that we can learn) for fear of looking bad. Drake told it as it was, warts and all, and I think that has real value for those of us who want to listen to his story. Take notice of the post I chose to quote. I was echoing that sentiment.

I do think his story has more value than our armchair sailor/quarterbacking discussion of it, which is part of what I was trying to say, but I also DO value our discussion and our diversity of opinions. That's why I'm here posting and not just reading and lurking.

MedSailor


----------



## Cruisingdad

jackdale said:


> Watched the videos and did some extra reading.
> 
> I would suggest that Drake is a great guy who made a very good (not great decision) in the case.
> 
> Towing in calm seas is an acceptable rendering of assistance. Ending the tow after the collision is also acceptable as the tow proved to be unsafe. I would be interested to read what happened when Titan 14 towed Cha Cha in. Did they have the same problems?
> 
> I also believe that not only is Drake entitled to payment for the damages, he is entitled to remuneration for his assistance under the Convention for the Unification of Certain Rules of Law respecting Assistance and Salvage at Sea (Convention for the Unification of Certain Rules of Law respecting Assistance and Salvage at Sea (Brussels 1910))
> 
> Drake's actions in providing the assistance are hugely commendable. He acted reasonably and had reasons for his actions. I think the most telling action he took was ensuring that his engine was ready for the tow. How many here would think of changing the engine oil?
> 
> Could things have been done differently? Of course.
> 
> Should he have tested his wind vane - of course. But that had no bearing on the course of events. Should he have had a ditch bag, SSB, Sat Phone - probably a good idea. Again no bearing on the outcome. Should he have had the JSD set to deploy - definitely. The irony is that would have probably put him out of radio contact with Cha Cha, as would his being on a more appropriate tack when hove-to.
> 
> Should he be single-handing on an ocean passage - I think most here would know my opinion.


My opinion exactly. Only difference, Ii would have offered to save him and the passengers. WIth that rudder jammed, Ii would not tow him. And if it was not jammed, I would tell him that if the seas get rough or a storm is coming, all bets are off and you will be getting on my boat.

Good guy, Drake. Hope I can meet him out there. I might even buy him a drink.

Brian


----------



## TakeFive

I really enjoyed those videos a lot. As someone with zero offshore experience, it gave a real feel for what it's like. It seems that he didn't do everything perfectly, but had very sound judgement when it came time to recover from his mistakes. He had a heart of gold for helping out that penniless fool on the other boat. Littauer's poor passenger/crew Gail proves why you never want to head offshore with someone you don't know. (My wife won't even do a daysail with someone we don't know. And Internet pals fall into the "don't know" category.)

If I find myself in trouble someday, I hope there's someone like Drake nearby to render assistance. He just seems like a nice guy, and not at all self-absorbed like that publicity whore Dom "Mee Mee Mee."


----------



## Cruisingdad

RhythmDoctor said:


> I really enjoyed those videos a lot. As someone with zero offshore experience, it gave a real feel for what it's like. It seems that he didn't do everything perfectly, but had very sound judgement when it came time to recover from his mistakes. He had a heart of gold for helping out that penniless fool on the other boat. Littauer's poor passenger/crew Gail proves why you never want to head offshore with someone you don't know. (My wife won't even do a daysail with someone we don't know. And Internet pals fall into the "don't know" category.)
> 
> If I find myself in trouble someday, I hope there's someone like Drake nearby to render assistance. He just seems like a nice guy, and not at all self-absorbed like that publicity whore Dom "Mee Mee Mee."


Good post. Agree. Tell your wife the best way to get to know your internet friends is to babysit. I got two coming your way right now... (snicker).

In all seriousnes though, who is this Dom you referred to?

Brian


----------



## TakeFive

Cruisingdad said:


> ...In all seriousnes though, who is this Dom you referred to?


He's another guy who made a video of himself on a singlehanded ocean passage. Discussed in this thread.


----------



## sneuman

I think the problem in many of these cases is that would-be sailors get steeped in the mythology of single-handed ocean passages before they get any real experience. I'm not saying that's necessarily the case here, but it well could be.

So, instead of going from A to B, they want to go from A to Z in one go. The logical progression is some coastal, then progressive longer and more complex offshore passages -- with crew (preferably experienced). Instead, they want to go straight for the single-handed circumnavigation or some such. 

It's definitely not smart and potentially dangerous. After all, how many climbers start by trying to summit Mt.Everest without supplemental oxygen?


----------



## AncientTech

sneuman said:


> I think the problem in many of these cases is that would-be sailors get steeped in the mythology of single-handed ocean passages before they get any real experience. I'm not saying that's necessarily the case here, but it well could be.
> 
> So, instead of going from A to B, they want to go from A to Z in one go. The logical progression is some coastal, then progressive longer and more complex offshore passages -- with crew (preferably experienced). Instead, they want to go straight for the single-handed circumnavigation or some such.
> 
> It's definitely not smart and potentially dangerous. After all, how many climbers start by trying to summit Mt.Everest without supplemental oxygen?


I would have to agree with Sneuman, education,common sense and practice. Although living in Naples, FL I am very familiar with the lone lawyer story but I would think that the extremely rare exception and not at all the rule.


----------



## Night_Sailor

jameswilson29 said:


> Two more interesting aspects to Drake's ordeal are his concerns about the deck-stepped mast and the problems associated with his roller-furling jib during the storm.
> 
> Although the compression post survived its flexing during the storm, it appears he would have had greater peace of mind with a keel-stepped mast.
> 
> Again, we read about problems retracting a roller furling jib in heavy air, and all the associated problems it has caused. I seem to recall _Cha Cha's_ skipper experienced the same difficulty, leading to its roller-furling jib being ripped to shreds. I am still not convinced roller furling is the way to go offshore.
> 
> Both skippers would have likely been able to reduce sail area at the critical time more effectively and quickly by dropping a hanked-on jib to the deck and securing it, instead of having to contend with an uncooperative roller furling system.


Bearing away and reducing the apparent wind work fine for roller furling, even in high winds.


----------



## capta

Originally Posted by jameswilson29 

"Both skippers would have likely been able to reduce sail area at the critical time more effectively and quickly by dropping a hanked-on jib to the deck and securing it, instead of having to contend with an uncooperative roller furling system."

For my 2 cents worth, if one is having that much trouble furling a jib, I'm not too sure I want to be on the foredeck wrestling a hanked sail down and either tie it to the lifelines or unhank it and get it below. Much better to learn to work the furler in heavy weather, IMO.


----------



## Night_Sailor

Minnewaska said:


> The skipper of Cha Cha is a parasite. I can't imagine how he sleeps at night.


I realize this is an old thread, but I'm just reading about it after viewing a few of the Paragon video's. I agree completely. In 20/20 hindsight, I would have taken the crew off and left the ******* out there on his own.


----------



## Night_Sailor

SlowButSteady said:


> Also...Old or new, a rolled up jib/genoa still produces a lot of windage aloft exactly when one doesn't want a lot of windage aloft.


Windage is not the issue.

Ensuring the genoa doesn't come unraveled and tearing is a bigger concern. If it is rolled up well, then taking a spinnaker halyard and wrapping it around in the other direction will help protect it from coming undone.


----------



## Night_Sailor

blowinstink said:


> The Pardeys make a pretty strong case for never lying a hull and never running off. I believe that lying a hull has been broadly dismissed as a storm tactic (passive, puts the boat broadside to the seas exposed and vulnerable to being rolled). As for running off, we have all read accounts of boats sucessfully runnning off but the Pardeys argue compellingly (IMO) that it is the *failures* that should be examined and that boats which run off (and certainly those which lay a hull) are the ones which are damaged and do not survive storm conditions. As for when to heave to, they state as soon as you think of it, but also focus on the steepness of the waves rather than the wind speed (when the white horses become overhanging crests). They make a good case. I'll have to look at Roth again to compare (it has been a few years).


The issue with running off is you lose ground, but it is not a bad tactic. When waves are breaking on top of you, and your steering gets mushy, then you might find yourself rounding up and beam on to the seas. I'd like to try a really big para-anchor (24') in these conditions. The effects of a Von Karman (VK) vortex are really significant--take a look as some satelite images of clouds around an island for proof--600 miles of disturbed air; and in water a VK vortex will diminish waves for miles. I've hove to in gale conditions and found the results quite pleasing--instant anti nausea medication--miserable to comfy in 15 seconds.


----------



## Night_Sailor

AdamLein said:


> Good points. On the other hand, wouldn't a traditional hull form with a longer keel be more stable lying to a sea anchor?


Longer keels tend to fore-reach when hove to, sailing out of their protected slick of disturbed water, so a para-anchor is nice to have in that situation.


----------



## Night_Sailor

shanker said:


> Wow!!
> 
> I've just finished the videos and reading all the posts. I started this about an hour before my work day and I just finished. 3 1/2 hours and I haven't done a stich of work today.
> 
> There have been many comments about this episode which I do not need to repeat. What intrigued me was how Drake took on the challenge of asisting Cha Cha. He had just survived a terrible ordeal, that lasted a couple of days. He was clearly, in the video at least, going down hill. Physically beat up, sleep deprived and mentally drained. Yet when the call came across the radio he reacted in such a way that tells me plenty about his character. At one point you can see it in his eyes; before he keys the mic, he knows what he is about to say will be greatly adding to his torcherous trip. At his lowest moment he does not waiver. He does the right thing. Again, this speaks volumes to me about the type of person he is. I think we would all be proud to call Drake a friend. Kudos to you Drake!
> 
> Thanks to Smack for posting this.
> 
> Drake, thank you. I have learned pleanty from your escapade that will stay with me. You mentioned that you also learned some personal things after that storm...good luck with them!
> 
> All the best!
> 
> Shanker.


Drake is wiser now. After having rescued a dunderhead that put my boat in jeopardy, I can assure you I would not be so quick to render assistance. The completeness of the problems on Cha Cha clearly indicated the skipper should have been disregarded as an intelligent sailor, and my concerns would have been for his crew. Leaving a harbor with a motor that was overheating? Did he even check the strainer? I doubt it. Probably the heat exchanger had never been cleaned. He had no money? What was he doing out there? There were plenty of indications that skipper was a complete idiot. I would have demanded 100% salvage on that boat, or hove to and waited for them to run out of food and then taken it.


----------



## Night_Sailor

drakeParagon said:


> Hi Jack,
> 
> Bermuda Harbor Radio kept me on channel 16 throughout the entire towing situation. They never asked me to switch to their working frequency, but rather cleared 16 of all other traffic so that Paragon, Titan 14, and Cha Cha could talk without having to switch, and so that they could stay tuned into our situation who whole time.
> 
> With their powerful VHF Bermuda Harbor Radio could hear and converse with many of other boats on VHF 16 that were too far away for me to pick up. In the video they're actually telling another vessel entering Bermuda waters to switch to channel 27 for the checking in procedure...
> 
> This makes me want to make another video which shows Bermuda Harbor Radio calling me on channel 16 throughout the night at regular intervals and having long conversations with me to make sure that I was ok... I have the greatest respect, admiration and appreciation of Bermuda Harbor Radio - I think those guys are the elite - incredibly aware, professional, efficient, and beyond helpful.. they're at the ready to handle any kind of emergency situation in Bermuda waters - just another day for them.
> 
> I think that one sure way to figure out if someone has experience with offshore sailing is by seeing how they use the radio... things like saying "Over and out" every time instead of just "over"... or like never responding to a request to switch to channel X by saying "switching to X" before they actually do it.... It seemed so bizarre when I had to explain this stuff on the VHF to someone who had a captain's license and was in command of a 52 foot boat..
> 
> It makes me realize that having a captain's license doesn't mean that the person knows much about offshore sailing.... before I left NYC and was talking about my preparations and watch schedule with a person who had a captain's license.. He told me that he didn't understand why I just didn't just drop my anchor every night and sleep for the night on my way to Bermuda... I confirmed that it wasn't a misunderstanding. He didn't know that the water gets deeper away from land...


That nincompoop has a Captain's license? Well, I have met more than a few incompetent licensed Captains. And also a few RYA Yardmasters that were fit only for deckhand positions.

Lots of people ask me if I anchor at night offshore. This is a common misconception. For a Captain to think this is shocking.

I agree on Bermuda Harbor Radio. Queens Harbor Master (QHM Portsmouth, in the Solent) -- equally professional.

Radio stuff:

Drake should be praised for one thing in particular that no one has mentioned. He heard only their carrier and made a valiant and successful effort to establish contact.

Over and out means you are signing off. Over, means back to you and you are waiting for a response. It is easy enough to hear the carrier drop on FM but sometimes people un-key and re-key to continue speaking, if they are checking power output; saying over makes it clear they are passing it back to you. Some people say "clear" a the end to indicate they are clearing the frequency. Clear and listening, means they are going silent, but still listening on the frequency. I personally don't like this use, as people find it confusing. I'd rather say, standing by.

Giving the frequency 1-6 is helpful for those scanning more than one frequency. Give the other yachts name first, then yours, then your message, and then "1-6 over" to continue the conversation. I suppose giving the channel is a bit redundant on channel 16. I always give the channel when operating on other frequencies unless I want privacy and have made contact with the vessel I'm trying to tag up with. Protocol is the give the channel as single digits--1-6 not sixteen. The reason is for people scanning frequencies. It is confusing as heck to be scanning and then trying to find which of 4 frequencies the transmission was on if the other party goes silent.


----------



## Night_Sailor

chall03 said:


> Maybe I should post this in the cruising with kids thread......
> .......but for what it's worth we discovered recently that 11 month old babies find untying figure 8's very amusing.
> 
> In a squall off bundy we however were not particularly amused when a jibsheet slipped through the block in 35+ knots.
> 
> We no longer use figure 8's for stopper knots


Stopper knots are rather important. That was a huge goof. I use Blood-Knots.


----------



## Night_Sailor

drakeParagon said:


> I really like your recommendation of using lighter and smaller diameter rope for the JSD! It's such a tedious task to pack all that thick and heavy stuff back in the bag..
> 
> In the 2 times that I brought in the JSD I used a self tailing jib sheet winch. A laborious task taking at least half an hour (and really killing my arm!).. I only ripped the cones when they got crunched in the self tailer part of the winch. My impression is that there would be less that could damage the cones if I did Hal Roth's way. I think the anchor roller and windlass drum are big enough for nothing to snag. Using the electric winch I could tail it myself... and I wouldn't have to kill my arm cranking... I'm looking forward to trying it!
> 
> On my smaller Westsail 32 I could always man handle the jib furler by pulling the line by hand. Difficult in heavier wind, but possible. But on my bigger Westsail 42 it's just about impossible to furl the jib in heavy air without a winch.. I think my big mistake was not installing a self tailing winch for furling the jib.. It made everything so much harder to correct when I accidentally gybed when that squall hit. I was spending forever battling with trying to get the jib in by pulling the line in by hand... Never again! I'm installing a self tailing winch for furling the jib before we push off...


Probably the most important attribute of a good sailor is to be humble and admit your mistakes. The cocky sailors, get into trouble and don't learn from their mistakes. The humble sailor recognizes he can learn from anyone and constantly gets better. It sure beats golf where we tend to get worse not better.


----------



## northoceanbeach

It's good to be humble and listen to advice but you have to be cocky. You hve to have a big ego, lots of self esteem and be cocky. If not you will never leave. 

Plus, most people tell you not to go, probably because they feel they have to have crew, and if someone singlehands it, it minimizes their accomplishment. So they call it luck, or whatever. If you don't have hubris you'll just sit at home second guessing everything. 

This guy, while I didn't watch everything, left, made some mistakes, and made it to Bermuda. So he was tired for six days. Lesson here? Just do it.


----------



## SVAuspicious

Night_Sailor said:


> Over and out means you are signing off. Over, means back to you and you are waiting for a response.


Actually not quite.

"Over" means 'I'm done talking and will listen for your reply.'

"Out" means 'I'm done talking and closing down my station.'

So "Over and out" means 'I'm done talking and you can talk now but I won't be listening.'

*grin*

"Over and out" is a generation of TV (and we know how reliable _they_ are) and the CB craze of the 70s.

I've heard "Go" used as a synonym for "Over" which seems reasonable.

Interestingly I've seen TV police officers say "over and out" before leaping out of the car to chase after someone, so I guess they really meant "I'm done talking and you can talk now but I won't be listening." *grin* It always gives me the giggles.


----------



## outbound

Thought given you are suppose to monitor 16 continuously ending with s/v ---- on one six or s/v---- back to one six ( if changing back) was a good way to end and s/v--- to ---s/v ---or m/v or f/v--- on one six ( or current working frequency ) for turning mike back to them. ? Is this wrong?
Avoid "over" and "roger" as confusing although "roger that" seems ok


----------



## Night_Sailor

I enjoyed watching the video's although I had to skim through some and skipped the middle ones completely. Judicious editing would help a lot.

I like that he is not afraid to admit his mistakes. I dislike people who won't admit they can make mistakes. One of the best times I had was a night of sailors in a circle talking about their biggest screw ups. One fellow would not admit to ever having made a mistake, and it diminished him in my eyes, because we all have made mistakes. And talking about them is a good way to help others avoid those same mistakes.


----------



## JTSmith

smackdaddy said:


> As far as I've seen - yes. He does a lot of big sailing in a lot of nice places on a lot of nice boats. It's not like he's a complete newb.
> 
> Check out his YouTube channel.
> 
> (PS - I like the part where he admits his real fear in some pretty scary conditions, and I like that you can see him really mulling over what it will mean to answer that Pan-Pan. It's really great stuff. From a joyous dinner on night one to 6 more days of exhausted hell. His boat sure did right by him.)


The tension was absolutely palpable when the Pan-Pan came through. Highlight of the series. I've seen a few of his other shorts and was sort of on the fence about him. This made me like him.


----------



## Argyle38

Night_Sailor said:


> Probably the most important attribute of a good sailor is to be humble and admit your mistakes. The cocky sailors, get into trouble and don't learn from their mistakes. The humble sailor recognizes he can learn from anyone and constantly gets better. It sure beats golf where we tend to get worse not better.


Good advice.

If you're feeling cocky, go to sea. If your not humbled by the time you get back, you weren't out long enough.


----------



## smackdaddy

capta said:


> Originally Posted by jameswilson29
> 
> "Both skippers would have likely been able to reduce sail area at the critical time more effectively and quickly by dropping a hanked-on jib to the deck and securing it, instead of having to contend with an uncooperative roller furling system."
> 
> For my 2 cents worth, if one is having that much trouble furling a jib, I'm not too sure I want to be on the foredeck wrestling a hanked sail down and either tie it to the lifelines or unhank it and get it below. Much better to learn to work the furler in heavy weather, IMO.


Bingo.


----------



## smackdaddy

Night_Sailor said:


> I can assure you I would not be so quick to render assistance. The completeness of the problems on Cha Cha clearly indicated the skipper should have been disregarded as an intelligent sailor, and my concerns would have been for his crew.


BS.

You need to help a fellow sailor regardless of your assumptions. EVERYONE deserves help when they are in distress*. Period. If you're really that self-assured get off the ocean. Save the lecture for when you are home.

(*Drake knew that. Which is why I respect him.)


----------



## travlin-easy

Smack, I agree - you should always help someone in distress - ALWAYS! 

I watched this some time ago, and some of the things Drake did just didn't make much sense to me, especially deploying the parachute off the stern while heaving to. Seemed like a good way to take a big wave over the stern. And, it surely would not help him achieve the proper 50 degree bow angle needed to stem the vessel's progress.

I also could not believe he did not have stop knots in his halyards or sheets - I always thought that was just common sense, but maybe I'm wrong.

Also wondered why Cha Cha could not have rigged an emergency steering system. Maybe her captain was just dumb as dirt - at least it seemed that way.

Cheers,

Gary


----------



## smackdaddy

travlineasy said:


> Smack, I agree - you should always help someone in distress - ALWAYS!
> 
> I watched this some time ago, and some of the things Drake did just didn't make much sense to me, especially deploying the parachute off the stern while heaving to. Seemed like a good way to take a big wave over the stern. And, it surely would not help him achieve the proper 50 degree bow angle needed to stem the vessel's progress.
> 
> I also could not believe he did not have stop knots in his halyards or sheets - I always thought that was just common sense, but maybe I'm wrong.
> 
> Also wondered why Cha Cha could not have rigged an emergency steering system. Maybe her captain was just dumb as dirt - at least it seemed that way.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Gary


Trav..that's just it. When you live...you learn.

I hope to hell the Cha-Cha skipper learned. Because thanks to Drake...he lived.


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## snippys_dad

Hey thanks for that , I learned alot about complacency to be honest he told my similar story ,when it goes wrong it does spectacular ly , the naysayers can say what they like he was a very honest account and out there doing it . 5 stars .


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## JonEisberg

smackdaddy said:


> I hope to hell the Cha-Cha skipper learned. Because thanks to Drake...he lived.


Littauer sounds like a slow learner, to me...

Cha Cha Going on the Block | www.newportthisweek.com | Newport This Week

I call it a happy ending, if that clown is off the ocean for awhile...


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## smurphny

Night_Sailor said:


> Probably the most important attribute of a good sailor is to be humble and admit your mistakes. The cocky sailors, get into trouble and don't learn from their mistakes. The humble sailor recognizes he can learn from anyone and constantly gets better. It sure beats golf where we tend to get worse not better.


There is a big difference between self confidence and excessive hubris. Folks with real self confidence have no problem whatsoever in admitting and discussing mistakes. They have nothing to prove to anyone and are always willing to use mistakes to learn. Discussing mistakes with others is a way they learn. They are not acting any part. Those with excessive hubris are not willing to share their mistakes nor modify their preconceived notions because they are afraid others may jostle their little house of cards.


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## snippys_dad

Chch for sail , if I buy can any one give me a tow back to nz ?


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