# What sailboats are "worth" restoring



## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

If one was to take on a project boat, a backyard special or dock queen I suspect that some brands/models may be generally considered a better choice than others. 


First a couple of definitions:
Worth: I'm assuming that any sailboat restoration is not going to be profitable. So by worth I'm not saying it could be sold for a profit. By worth I thinking in terms of, great sailing, reasonable resale value, historical value, amazing design not just dollars.
Restore: This one is a bit vague too. Not necessarily a like new refit but sail-able.

What are some brand/models you may or may not personally choose to restore but would at least understand the call and what makes that boat worthy in your view.

For example normal but put on this list is the Pearson Triton. Nice shape hull, solidly build nice lines good reputation.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Any Hinkley.
Any Herreshoff design.
Any Alberg boat. They are all the same, just different lengths and different builders.
Any boat that makes you see the potential, and you can defend without rationalizing when you inevitably have "the talk" with your significant other.


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## BarryL (Aug 21, 2003)

Hello,

Good thread.

I can't imagine someone letting a Hinkley or Herreshof get that bad in the first place.

Personally, I would think Tartan or Sabre. I think that some Sabres had problems with leaking chainplates resulting in wet decks. One of those could be a good choice to restore.

Barryh


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## tomwatt (Dec 11, 2009)

Worth is personal, to a point.
In locating my hull, I had specific things in mind, and the fact that the interior was in poor shape had little bearing on my final choice, as it is my intent (the scope of the project) to customize it to suit myself. So very few boats out there would have met my needs off the shelf anyway.
Having just spent part of this morning looking at a "project" that was sadly not salvageable, and being one of those sorts of dreamers that feels sadness at the thought of a fine old hull disintegrating through neglect, I suppose any reader can quickly peg me as "one of those"... 
Since most (I'm sure the yacht brokers would quibble and I wouldn't argue that their viewpoint is invalid, at least from their standpoint) would agree that resale value has little to do with worth, you have to decide somewhere along the line what you're going to commit to a project.
And is it something with a big budget up front, or will it be a little along (which is the typical American backyard mechanic's way of doing things)?


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## catamount (Sep 8, 2002)

I am quite happy with my Peterson 34, which I brought back from the brink.

Some other designs that I think would be worthwhile projects:
J35
Cal 40
C&C 35

I would think you should be looking for a boat that has a well-known reputation for its sailing qualities, and for which the original construction was decent (the Hinckley's and Alberg's mentioned above, for example). I would steer clear of boats that have a reputation for being cheaply-built. There's nothing really wrong with production lines like Bristol, Pearson, Catalina, but they don't really stand out, either. Of course, much depends on your intended use!


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## Sabreman (Sep 23, 2006)

I think that the question is too vague. Any boat is worth restoration if the end product meets the owner's needs and budget. The rest is just a matter of scale. There are "good" boats and "bad"; SailNet has lots of threads extolling the virtues and deficiencies of many brands. While I agree with BarryL about the virtues of Sabres and their chainplate issues, the list could be expanded greatly.


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## Perithead (Nov 16, 2007)

I would have to say that the Montgomery line of boats are well worth restoring, I would love to find a M17 to restore myself I love that boat!

But any boat really is probably worth restoring as long as the restorer thinks so.


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## eMKay (Aug 18, 2007)

I would say anything that can be brought back to life in one off season, but I like sailing more than restoring.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

A boat that sails well, was originally well built for its day. All older boats have issues, but the "project" should be restoring the boat to its original quality and modifying items you would like to change, but not to make up for bad design or build to start with. Everybody's eye for beauty is different, and I forget who said it but when rowing away you should want to turn around for another look. 

Hinckley, Sabre, CS, C&C, Cal, Pearson (Triton and others), Alberg, Spencer (B.C. built), Bristol, Contest, SHE (UK), Rival, Contessa (26 & 32) and many others as well as custom boats from good designers, S&S, Peterson, Rhodes, Lapworth, Crealock, Herreschoff (probably wood), Perry, Tripp and others.

And the Vega 27 all except for one.....


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## eMKay (Aug 18, 2007)

mitiempo said:


> And the Vega 27 all except for one.....


LOL!

That boat would be worth it to the right person, but not me.


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

Any boat that you are on in the middle of the ocean that suddenly breaks is worth restoring.  Especially if it starts letting water in!


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## jrd22 (Nov 14, 2000)

Like others have said I think it's a personal decision whether something is "worth" restoring. Given your parameters an inexpensive, small boat that was going to take a lot of man hours might not qualify but might still be a good candidate for restoration if someone can put sweat equity into it and have a nice boat that they wouldn't otherwise be able to afford. I've restored three boats from the brink of death and none of them have been classics, but all have filled a need for me personally so they were "worth" it. Surprisingly I haven't been hurt financially too much by them, unless you count the man hours of labor  . Our latest restoration involved settling for a boat that needed a lot of work when we were really looking for something that was in excellent shape and didn't need much. But due to my fixation on a particular model by a certain designer and not many to choose from we decided to take the plunge once more. I'm happy we did, but won't be doing another.


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

An S&S Swan... specifically a 44.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Did Olin Stephens ever design a bad boat? Any of the early Swans would be candidates for a proper restoration.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

I think the question also depends on your skills, your tool collection and the amount of time you can devote to the project.

If you're very handy, have lots of room, lots of tools and lots of time, then most of your investment is sweat equity.


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## RonRelyea (Nov 18, 2009)

How about this one? 
PJ Photos: Clearwater Renovation | poughkeepsiejournal.com | Poughkeepsie Local News | Poughkeepsie Journal


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

By far the big issue is being able to insure your master piece for anything remotly close to its "illusive" value 

In general a 1975 boat has value X and i have found i can insure new parts above that BUT NOT labor


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## degreeoff (Oct 25, 2009)

I would say my Catalina 30 (85) was and is a good resto project....but then again I am biased! BUT after all new rigging, sails, electric, plumbing, interior refinishing etc I will only be in it for about 15k and that is a good deal!. I am putting a value of ZERO on my labor but I will keep her for some time so the illusionary 50k in labor dont matter now does it? They do seem to hold their resale though.

Josh


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## petmac (Feb 27, 2007)

BarryL said:


> Hello,
> 
> Good thread.
> 
> ...


Here's a Hinckley in bad shape. Photo was posted on another board.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

I'd want to restore that old shoe of a hinkley because why?!?!?!?!

Any way, reality is, as mentioned, "in the eye of the beholder"!

If some folks did not want to restore an old model T, there would be none! or cobra charlie and his old woody! I would not do it, but Charlie would! Some would say what I did not my 85 Jeanneau was not worth it. to me it was and still is. 

So, the real answer is, "it depends" on whether you need them or not after you get the bill for the fix up/repairs to make the restoration shine!

marty


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## catamount (Sep 8, 2002)

tommays said:


> By far the big issue is being able to insure your master piece for anything remotly close to its "illusive" value


Insurance? what's that?

Of course, regardless of your boat's value you probably do want liability insurance...


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

What sailboats are worth restoring?
The one the person without the cash to buy a boat in good condition, nor desire (or ability) to borrow the money to do so is thinking of. It allows someone to buy a project at any level from needing a bit of work to probably the condition of the Vega on the other threads. And with money spent on a pay as you go basis and a lot of sweat equity they get a boat they couldn't afford to pay cash for. I think a lot of people do this. One only has to look at threads on this site, the Plastic Classic forum and the owner's groups. Hopefully they do a reasonable job of it. Because the problem with fiberglass boats is they don't go away, easily at least. Old wooden boats when totally ignored to eyesore stage have the decency to fade from sight eventually through rot and decay. But an ugly, ignored, filthy fiberglass boat seems to last forever.


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## eMKay (Aug 18, 2007)

petmac said:


> Here's a Hinckley in bad shape. Photo was posted on another board.


Look! The Hinckley Queen Family Truckster!


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

eMKay said:


> I would say anything that can be brought back to life in one off season, but I like sailing more than restoring.


Good Point


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

degreeoff said:


> I would say my Catalina 30 (85) was and is a good resto project....but then again I am biased! BUT after all new rigging, sails, electric, plumbing, interior refinishing etc I will only be in it for about 15k and that is a good deal!. I am putting a value of ZERO on my labor but I will keep her for some time so the illusionary 50k in labor dont matter now does it? They do seem to hold their resale though.
> 
> Josh


I would be interested in that project. Have you written it up any place?
What did it cost?
What about the engine?
Mind giving us a general breakdown on the budget items?


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

The restore in one season will depend upon free time you have to do the work, assuming you are doing the work! In Charlies case right now, he appears to have a few $$$ in the bank, maybe some unemployment to work a lot on Oh Joy! So potentially he could restore her in one season, 

Mean while if he was back at Boeing working as some are, 50-70 hrs a week, said restore of Oh Joy might take 5-10 yrs! 

In the end, it still comes down to the depends part, what your finances are, what you like, are willing to do etc. You could buy an older X-Yacht, take it to Denmark, and the factory will restore/refinish everything, and turn around and give you a 2 yr warranty to boot! 

Or as some have done, restore older woodies like Oh Joy. Or the USS Constitution or equal. If that boat went away, it would not exist in any way shape or form. 

What is the "restore" part of the restore are we doing. Sailing does an issue, January?!?!?! or there abouts with 4-6 boats that were bought used, and they show what someone did with up to 30-50% of base cost to make said boat really usable again. The % will depend upon what type of boat, and initial cost. 

But as Brian? mentioned, plastic boats are relatively easy to restore per say! Wood on the other hand, it might be easier to build a new one, if you are talking an Oh Joy or equal. 

I know my boat I am into it about 40K with a 20K used cost, with new cushions, varnish inside, head/hull liner, sails, lines, deck gear etc. Then again, not sure I needed to spend 15K on the cushions......but as they say, momma ain't happy, no one's happy!

In the mean time, I figure I have another 20 yrs before my boat will be like it was a few yrs back at 20 yrs old! 

Marty


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Marty
I don't think a wooden boat is harder to restore per se. For me or anyone not used to wood construction it is. And I think more skill is certainly required for wood restoration. But there are people with wood boats that find it easy to spile a new plank and don't want to work with glass and what that entails. I do think it is certainly easier to learn to work on a glass boat if you're diligent and handy with tools but have no prior experience. Even engine work isn't hard if you aren't totally inept and can read a manual. Don't force anything to the extent of breaking it and if you're stumped take the part to the expert. At least don't pay the expert his hourly rate to visit the boat and remove bolts that you are able to. Glass and epoxy work is easily learned as well I think.
What I was trying to say earlier is at least a neglected old wooden boat will eventually rot away and sink out of sight as they are basically biodegradeable but a neglected ugly mouldy fiberglass boat seems to be an eyesore forever.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Brian,

You are correct in the wood vs glass options. Having built two boat, ie an 8' pram and 12' sloop. like workng in wood, and do do work n construction, granted landscape construction........but none the less. What is entailed in the restore, "IF" doing it yourself, you need to choose a resto that has parts and pieces that the person doing the work can and will do themselves. IF NOT< then the resto will be a waist in most cases. Such as me trying to restore Oh Joy, I'd be taking so many short cuts it would be silly to try and do the work. For what I did to Amoretto, it was all fun and games for me! stuff I could do a weekend here, there and along the way, meanwhile, I was sailing her during the roughly 3 yrs the work took! 

So to me, while a season is a good thing to look at, not sure that a season is what should limit your resto, "IF" you can do it like I did, in parts and pieces over 3 yrs, then it was freetime relaxing at the boat meanwhile, it got me out of doing yard work! in my own home, as that is my wifes relaxation. for me it is work! wonder why?!?!?!?!?LOLOLOL

marty


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

I rebuilt (not restored) a wooden sailboat in 1970 and like working with wood - I used to work for a company that built interiors for Columbia 26 & 34 built in Canada by Coopers and worked for a fine furniture company after that. I also used to own a 35' wooden boat and rebuilt a lot of the interior on her. But I think it takes more devotion to do what is being done to Oh Joy. And I think a wooden restoration should be more "classic" somehow. The wooden restorations all seem to be boats with pedigree and that is how it should be. But what most of us are doing is more of a rebuild to make it work (as good or better than new) and look ok as well as some modifications and upgrades. And were they wood with some exceptions I don't think most would be considered "classics". My boat included. I'm not saying we're doing a bad job but the boats aren't all Swans and Hinckleys. Every once in a while you see an Alberg, Triton, or other real classic design that has been truly "restored" like the 200k chevys you see on Barrett-Jackson but those are the exception and not the rule. And that's how it should be as that first ding on a pristine awlgrip paint job hurts a lot. We're rebuilding to use not restoring to show.

ps That Hinckley wouldn't have been that beautiful when new in my opinion.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Re the Hinkley, ALL boats as to what is pretty is overall in the eye of the beholder, but, I do agree, it would probably not be that pretty to me overall either even when new. 

But then, I thought I would never see an ugly Swan either, and they built very few 38' version of one boat that is currently for sale here in Seattle, I would not pay what they are asking for it nor would I own it if it was 10K US$$! Now a Club Swan 42....oh la la. But some would say that is too ugly too.......

But the mors of us are rebuilding to use, not show is correct. Unless you have an older early 1900's classic woodie, ala 6M or some other classic boat with a pedigree to her. Othewise, chainsaw/fireplace time!


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## Danny33 (Nov 21, 2007)

o,man .. with out thinking a Mc greger ,,, What is everyone thinking ?
I have my Hans C working its way up here ,,, If I had only known !


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Here's 2 of the prettiest fiberglass boats (in my opinion), the Swede 52 designed by Knud Reimers (first 2 pics) and the Tripp designed Lecomte 33 followed by an older classic I believe was designed by Illingworth & Primrose (Maica class I think). All would be worth restoring (not just a rebuild) as far as I'm concerned.


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## reillyjd (Oct 14, 2006)

I would think twice about restoring any boat that doesn't have a good owners group who can share info about previous restorations. I brought a 1967 Pearson Vanguard back to life and it would have been a completely different (not to mention more frustrating and expensive) experience if I couldn't draw upon the experience - good and bad - of other owners. I was even lucky enough to have another Vanguard in my marina which had just been restored, and the owner was always kind enough to let me peek at this or that and see how something could work. 

Good luck, have fun, and go sailing.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

The owners groups are a valuable resource but one fiberglass boat isn't that different from another. By inspecting a boat solutions can easily be sought from many sources. Plastic classic forum, boat design forum, wooden boat forum and others as well as blogs of individuals building, rebuilding and modifying similar boats are valuable resources. There is a lot that can be learned from the building of a 40' boat that applies to rebuilding or modifying a 30' boat. My first rebuilds were before the net. West epoxy manual and a few books about boatbuilding and equipping boats as well as the magazines were what I used. Nowadays the information is at your fingertips, with or without an owners group. Being handy with tools and knowing the basics helps. But a lot of good restorations and new builds have been very well done by amateurs who have never done anything like it before. Devotion to the result and care can produce some awesome boats.


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## merc2dogs (Jun 5, 2004)

In my view there is only one boat that's worth restoring, That's the one you want and like.

If you don't like it, it's not worth a coat of paint. If you like it, it's worth whatever you want to put into it.

If you want to make money doing it, it's best to find someone else who has a boat they want/like and charge to do the work for them.

I like the looks of older boats, newer ones may be faster, and (debatably) more comfortable, but they don't have the look or feel that I like.
Since they are old, they often have issues that drop the price on them. Since I didn't need a loan, I don't have to be concerned with paying it off, so I have the time to enjoy it, and since I'm in michigan, all winter to work on it. 

Ken.


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## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

Ah yes, restoring an old boat. If I didn't restore Oh Joy, there'd be no more of her ilk, her being a one off of a Hinckley Custom Pilot drawn by Olin back in the day and built by Knutson before Hinckley started building their boats out of plastic. Sadly, not all boats, even the ones with pedigrees, like the Herreshof H-28 I just watched get cut in pieces, get a loving owner in time to save them. 

Could I restore Oh Joy in a single season given enough money for materials? No, the scope is too big and unfortunately, I have the time but not much of the other component. So I get what I can and do what I can. I'll soon not have the time once again and will be forced to work on her over the weekends. My motivator was the boat itself and the ridiculous price I paid for her. Even if I dump 20K in her, I'm still ahead.


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## kaluvic (Jan 14, 2009)

mitiempo said:


> Here's 2 of the prettiest fiberglass boats (in my opinion), the Swede 52 designed by Knud Reimers (first 2 pics) and the Tripp designed Lecomte 33 followed by an older classic I believe was designed by Illingworth & Primrose (Maica class I think). All would be worth restoring (not just a rebuild) as far as I'm concerned.


Yes...those are very nice.
I'm almost finished with my 1978 CT48.


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## petmac (Feb 27, 2007)

mitiempo said:


> Here's 2 of the prettiest fiberglass boats (in my opinion), the Swede 52 designed by Knud Reimers (first 2 pics) and the Tripp designed Lecomte 33 followed by an older classic I believe was designed by Illingworth & Primrose (Maica class I think). All would be worth restoring (not just a rebuild) as far as I'm concerned.


That Swede 52 is beautiful !


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## petmac (Feb 27, 2007)

mitiempo said:


> Here's 2 of the prettiest fiberglass boats (in my opinion), the Swede 52 designed by Knud Reimers (first 2 pics) and the Tripp designed Lecomte 33 followed by an older classic I believe was designed by Illingworth & Primrose (Maica class I think). All would be worth restoring (not just a rebuild) as far as I'm concerned.


Speaking of Tripp designs, this is my favourite....the Bermuda 40.


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## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

mitiempo, actually, that's a Swede 55 and a gorgeous example of a meter boat. The aft cabin is known as the love tunnel by most owners. They're a fast, if tender boat.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

You're correct it is 55. There is a custom wooden version built by Brooklin called Vortex. Its construction was profiled in Woodenboat. Apparently the glass version shown came out heavier than the designer intended - Vortex is lighter. I think all my ideal boats are slim rather than fat as long as their length allows it.


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## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

I agree for a couple of reasons. A slimmer boat is more easily driven and the other is that in heavy weather, you can actually reach the handholds from both sides when moving about the cabin. It saves many a bump, bruise or break.


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## cormeum (Aug 17, 2009)

One off S&S racing yawl









Ex "Inverness"









A good all around boat. That's the real reason to "restore" a boat- but a good history isn't bad either.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Started restoring my Alberg 35 last spring, got her into sailable (not prettycondition and sailed all summer and fall 2009 around the Northeast. She has been worth every effort. For < $30,000 and a lot of work, I have a boat with all new equipment, including nav systems, radar, windvane steering, etc. ready to go anywhere. She is eminently stable and seaworthy, offshore capable, and classically beautiful. The glass layup from 1967 is bulletproof. These classic boats were made to sail rather than to please people interested in fancy galleys and heads. She is certainly not as fast as modern fin-keeled boats but (as she demonstrated this summer) is capable of sailing through 45 knot winds as modern boats turn tail. She will heave-to easily and ride out almost any blow, is very economical to run on power (Yanmar), and is comfortably single-handed. The main issue with an old boat like this is the inevitable core rot. I ripped up and replaced about 60% of the total deck area. It's a messy, smelly job, not for the faint of heart but certainly doable by almost anyone with time, a small circular saw, grinder, organic vapor mask, new balsa core (really the best option), and many gallons of West System (hint: buy it by the 5 gal. pail). You can reconstruct the decks stronger than the original sprayed fiber. Areas to really beef up are the bow where anchor handling occurs, the cockpit deck where the pedestal sits, under the mast step, and under any deck hardware. I also got rid of the leaky thru-deck chainplates which are a constant source of water penetration and attached new beefier plates outside the hull. If you like the working as much as the sailing, you can't go wrong with this venerable Alberg design.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

smurphny said:


> Started restoring my Alberg 35 last spring, got her into sailable (not pretty


Sounds like you got a lot done in a short amount of time.
Would you consider starting a new thread and posting some pictures and we always like to know how the numbers worked out.
Original cost, Major item costs, total costs, hours, subcontractors.

Folks like to use case studies for education.
a lot of people would be appreciative.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

mitiempo said:


> You're correct it is 55. There is a custom wooden version built by Brooklin called Vortex. Its construction was profiled in Woodenboat. Apparently the glass version shown came out heavier than the designer intended - Vortex is lighter. I think all my ideal boats are slim rather than fat as long as their length allows it.


What is you definition of slim vs fat. Some ratio number perhaps?


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Well, the Swede 55 is 53' overall with a 39' waterline and a beam of 9.58 feet. Quite narrow but many of its type are. I've always liked Steve Dashew's designs (Deerfoot and Sundeer derivatives), Sundeer 60 is 60' overall, 60' waterline and a beam of 13'9". The 56' Sundeer has the same beam with a waterline of 56'. I am really not fond of overhangs either. As beautiful as they are they don't give you any benefit over a boat without overhangs. Higher speeds with the finer entry that a narrow boat allows. It is hard to get real narrow on a smaller boat though as the accomodation suffers. The Swede 55 is a good example of this and it isn't very roomy for its length. The first smaller narrow boat that comes to mind is the Tumlaren, designed by Knud Reimers who also designed the Swede 55. It is 27'8" long with a beam of 6'3". Adlard Coles, British sailor and writer (author of Heavy Weather Sailing) raced a 32' Tumlaren design named Cohoe very successfully in the 
60's.
A lot of more common boats from a few decades ago are quite narrow compared to todays racer/cruisers. The Alberg 35 has a beam of 9'8" and the Spencer 35, made famous by Hal Roth, is 9'6" beam.

For comparison the Catalina 30 has a beam of 10'10", the Catalina 36 a beam of 11'11" and the Hunter 37 Legend a beam of 12'5".

Here are pics of the Deerfoot 60 and the Tumlaren.


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## gaha_1 (Mar 29, 2002)

Anyboat is worth it.If you like the lines and want to put the money into it.I might like something and you may think that I'am stupid for even thinking about it.


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## olson34 (Oct 13, 2000)

davidpm said:


> What is you definition of slim vs fat. Some ratio number perhaps?


On this point alone, the easy-to-remember length/beam ratio for a cat boat used to be 3 to 1.
Then the rush to make sloops more livable at the dockside under the IRS "second home tax write-off" scheme led to increasingly porky designs where the deck was designed around the apartment-sized interior. By the late 80's the transition was in full swing. 
Gotta be realistic... if I were building production boats, I would also have to go where the market is. It's a business, after all, and not a charity.


That's one reason that the good-sailing designs from the 70's will always be in demand for restoration by boaters wanting to actually _sail_.

So keep restoring and enjoying those "classic" fast Cals, Ericsons, Ranger yachts, and Catalina 27's. 


L


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

The only issue to a degree I see with some of the 70's boats, is if they have the IOR buldge. Then even tho reasonably fast, not exactly something I want to sail on. BUT< this also comes into gaha's point, "ANY BOAT" if you like the lines etc is worth restoring/refurbing etc. I've made my what classic plastic I would not restore, nor would I restore and old shoe double ender equal full keeler std transom in plastic either! 

Marty


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## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

As far as the difficulty of restoring wooden boats is concerned. The actual bits of work done aren't all that hard. The hard part is peeling the onion to get at whatever needs replacing. Wooden boats are many thousands of little jobs done well. All of those little jobs relate or tie into one another. Oh Joy had a rotten clamp (main framing that the deck beams tie to as well as rib tops) that needed fixed. To get at it, the deck had to come off. The deck beams and house had to come off. The chainplate partner on that side as well as a bulkhead had to come out. All of this to replace an 8' section of bad wood. This is the main issue with a wood boat. While everything on it can be replaced, getting at it is another story all together...


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