# Need Refrigeration for Cruising - Suggestions?



## [email protected] (Mar 27, 2004)

I am planning a year long cruise from Maine to Bahamas with family on P365 Ketch. I have been leaning towards the Adler Barbour Cold Machine with cold plates. I would probably need a larger alternator (original on Yanmar 40). I am very interested in having input from folks with experience. My ice box is large and well insulated. Please share with me your experience and what size alternator is required. Would like to run refer off engine Vs. drain batteries


----------



## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

Alternators are designed to charge batteries, not run electrical equipment. You would be much better off designing a good battery bank and the means to charge it, then by using the alternator. Especially once you get into warmer climates. Otherwise you'll be running your engine quite a bit. Trying to avoid upgrading your battery bank (which it seems you are doing) would, in my opinion, be penny-wise and pound-foolish.

Regards,


----------



## bmunse (Feb 17, 2006)

Since you want to chill the plates with your engine rather than off the batteries, you should add an engine driven compressor instead of an electric compressor/condensing unit. I have a friend here in St Louis who took one off his 33 Hunter when he sold it. It is listed in the classifieds here on Sailnet. While cruising, his box was kept cold by running the engine twice a day for 20 minutes each time.


----------



## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Running your diesel to run your fridge is not a good idea for your diesel and will not only wear your engine agrressively but also REQUIRES you to be on the boat every day to run the engine for an hour or two if you don't want to lose your food. I don't know ANY long term cruisers who have CHOSEN such a plan. Many have boats that came with engine driven refrigeration...but none would CHOOSE to have it this way. Engine driven units drive a compressor for efficiency so you would not haveto upgrade your alternator.
If you go the conventional route then you need an upgrade to the 100Amp range alternators. We had good luck with a Balmar on a Yanmar44. Be sure to gt the smart Balmar regulator with this upgrade as well to take good care of your batteries. 
For your situation and space, I would recommend the SeaFrost BD system. I recently helped install one of these on a catamaran and was impressed how easy it was and how the company put everything together so it all fit our particular installation. The unit worked great too.
http://www.seafrost.com/bd.htm

They also make engine driven systems if you continue down that road.


----------



## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

The engine driven cold-plate system is a great system, but it is just that - engine driven.

Most of the "real" offshore-cruisers use a cold-plate system. They are very efficient and the "old" theory was that you have to run your main or genny anyways to charge the batteries, might as well put an extra load on it and refridgerate at the same time.

However, it seems to me there has been a considerable decrease of those as of late to more of an Adler-Barbor air (or air & water cooled compressor). They are less efficient (although I understand the combo unit is an improvement). They will draw about 5 amps when running, and we run our about 8-10 hours a day in the tropical climates (with really good insulation, which is another topic). How long they run, depends of course, on the insulation, how often you open your box, and how the box opens (ie, does it have a front opening door that lets out all the cool air every time you open it).

My boat came with the air cooled, as did my other two previous boats. Short of sticking a ice pick through the coils (don't ask), they are dependable, and very modular for ease of installation. They are also relatively cheap. Mine has never failed.

In my opinion, I think you will see cold plates dissapear. This will of course be very debated, but let me tell you why: The technology for charging batteries (outside of an engine) has vastly improved. If you invest in good (the emphasis being GOOD) solar panels, wind generators, and an awesome charge controller, you should find that you have ALL of your power requirements taken care of - and more than enough to run your refridgeration. You can also increase your battery bank capacity (I reccomend Lifeline AGMS) to get you through cloudy, no wind days when they happen... which does not happen much where you are heading.

In essence, if you do not upgrade your boat to "off the grid" cruising power systems, you will be running your engine all the time anyway... why not spend the extra money where it can serve dual purposes?

Just my thoughts. If you want specifics on this, including make/models of what I use, just PM me or you can ask here.

- CD


----------



## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

CD...so you used an ice pick eh? I find personally that a flat bladed screwdriver works better!! <LOL> THAT was an expensive mistake!!

Refresh my memory...what are you using for solar/wind generation? We had 160 watt Kyocera panels on our last boat with a 4-winds generator but were never able to get self sufficiency for our need despite a big battery bank. We were using about 150A/H a day but only generating 80-100 on average. What is your secret...living small or massive panels???


----------



## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

4- Kyocera 130's, wired in series. Outback mx60 MPPT. AirX wind gen. 

Like you , I also have a generator. I have the Whisper (Mastervolt) 3.5. Seems like yours is a 8kw Westerbeke?

The boat we are fashioning after (a Taswell 49) uses 6 - Kyoceras, same charger, and your wind gen. (PS PBeezer, if you are reading, that is the boat that is down there with you right now). He says he gets a solid 60-65 amps/hour form his panels, for most of the day (which is surprising, I guess... but he is the most knowledegeable E-Engineer I have ever met). He did not like your wind gen either. 

I may add another panel. Picked up the 130's for $601/piece!! 4 panels is about the minimum for the MX-60, really needs more.

How many panels are you running?

As far as the *&!#$ Ice Pick, My wife would not let me have another ice pick on a boat for YEARS afterwards. I am NOT exhaggerating. It was one of those stupid things where you say, "Defrost? Why? Here Baby, hold my beer and watch this!"


----------



## ebs001 (May 8, 2006)

CD, I note you are using an AirX have you had any trouble with th internal voltage regulation. My AirX stops generating due to "voltage hysterisis" and I am considering an external regulator. Have you had any problems with your AirX.
I am also interested in why you think "cold plates" are on there way out or by this do you mean the engine driven cold plates. I ahve been thinking of changing my air cooled Alder Barbour to a water cooled and instaed of evaporating coil using a cold plate which contains a substance similar to freezy packs. The people I have talked to have been unanimous that this is the way to go especially in warm climes.


----------



## btrayfors (Aug 25, 2006)

[email protected],

Just another vote for the electric Adler-Barbour air or water-cooled system. I've had one for the past 18 years, including 11 years in the Caribbean. No problems whatsoever; still going strong.

Reasons for this one:

- ultra reliable
- ultra simple
- relatively inexpensive
- allows you to leave boat for reasonable time, if you have adequate house batteries.

The previous post is right: engine-driven compressors are disappearing on cruising boats. They were once very popular, but no longer are.

The A-B Cold Machine may draw a bit more than 5 amps...maybe 6 or so, and it may run more than 11-12 hours per day. Mine runs more like 14-15 in the tropics, but my large top-loading frig/freezer is not very well insulated.

In my experience, you'll want a house battery bank of at least 400AH (e.g., four 6V golf-cart batteries in series/parallel). I moved up to 675AH a few years ago, and that was very beneficial. However, I have an onboard generator, a big battery charger, and a high-output alternator with smart regulator to keep these babies happy.

You could get by on a P365 easily with just about 400AH house batteries supplemented by a couple of good sized solar panels or a smallish and quiet wind generator (like the Ampair 100). Definitely go for a high-output alternator and smart regulator, though. A very good investment.

Good luck.

BTW, I know the P365 very well. Once chartered one in St. Thomas for a couple of months.

Bill


----------



## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

*CD-* Thanks for the info...you have a solar panel FARM!! My panels were on my last boat along with the wind generator. This boat came with the Westerbeke and we never got around to doing passive again since the gen works well. Are you really looking at Taswell seriously...they are wonderful high end boats. We looked at one seriously in FL before we got our Tayana but that particular one had poorly thought out engine access which would make you crawl OVER a hot engine if you had an oil or impeller problem underway. It was really hard to walk away from that boat . Since it was a custom interior, I doubt you'll have the same issue. Good luck on her!

*Bill..*.nothing wrong with the A-B's! Reasons I recommended Sea Frost were the "personalization" of the piping/fittings running to the cold plate prior to shipping AND the fresh air intake on the compressor which helps efficiency of the unit which is quite similar to the A-B. 
I actually have a much different sea-frost on my own boat...it is a battery driven 1/2 HP compressor driving 2 large cold plates. Draws 40 Amps when running but only runs about 2-3 hours a day so end result is good efficiency if you have a big battery bank and a large cube to cool.


----------



## SailorMitch (Nov 18, 2005)

Does anyone have experience with either Frig-o-boat or the Isotherm water cooled units?


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I've used some of the water cooled units on charter boats, and it seems to me that in warmer waters, they don't do so well... I guess it would depend a lot on where you're planning on sailing...if you're in temperate to cold waters, they should work well—in the tropics, probably not so good.


----------



## [email protected] (Mar 27, 2004)

Gentlemen - 
You all have given me some worthwhile input. I was thinking of putting two 130W solar panels, but my P365 is set up with only 3 batteries (two house >112 amp hour deep cell and one starting battery). I am concerned that I will not have enough battery bank to run the AB cold machine without running off the engine. Honestly this is very new to me (always had ice boxes before ). I am beginning to realize that this refrigeration decision is probably the most complex of all the decisions. So I would ask my question just a little differently and ask it this way..... I plan on cruising northern new england for 3 months and then head south to the bahamas (3 kids and a navigator), I have a fairly new < 400hrs Yanmar 40 with saildrive, what have you more experienced cruisers done for refrigeration and auxillary power (solar - size and Watts) as well as wind. 

Thanks all - Andy - P365 Ketch Hull 33


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Andy,

I'm currently outfitting for a year on the hook cruising around the southern california channel islands. I determined pretty quickly that some sort of refrig would be required, but that my current thermoelectric would be too power hungry. I wanted something easy to install, power efficient, and cheap enough to make sense.

I've settled on an Engel MT35 compressor driven cooler coupled to two SP75 (75W) solar panels on a regulator. Based on my calculations, this setup will provide for our basic refrigeration needs without having to run the engine. Total cost <$1500.

Andrew


----------



## capecodphyllis (Dec 7, 2006)

I checked out your fridge. That Swing Motor Compressor must be amazingly efficient because the box itself couldn't be more than an inch thick; based on the photo. I'm left wondering how efficient it will be in 90 degree heat.

If the compressor were available seperately, you could use with a homemade box with 4 to 6 inches of insulation and a vapor barrier.

http://www.minicoolers.co.uk/index.htm?url=products/engel/mt35.htm


----------



## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Andy...You definitely need a bigger house bank since you can only use 50% of the rated amp hours without damaging your batteries. Suggest AT LEAST 3 of the 4D or larger size batteries for your house bank. 
If you are committed to the passive route and you can FIT the dual 130AH solar panels. (CAN YOU??)....they will generate approximately 70A/H's per day in the Bahamas which may meet your needs but probably not with your crew! This assumes sunny days...so you'll need an alternate way to supply amps to your system as well...either a wind generator or perhaps one of the little Honda type gas generators or you can use your engine at the risk of hurting it over the long term. 
You will need a charge controller for those panels and an upgrade to your alternator to something around 100 amps as you upgrade your battery storage and try to minimize your engine running time. Suggest strongly getting a Link battery controller to monitor what is going on with use and charging routines. 
For what it is worth...
We used a total of 160W panels on our last boat with a 4 Winds Wind generator which consistently put more amps into the batteries than the panels...but with our 150/AH per day use...we still ran the engine every few days.


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

We had a Gulfstar 36 with icebox. I drilled about 30 holes in the shell of the box and inserted low expansion foam in the holes until the foam came out of adjacent holes, and then epoxied over the holes. I purchased a Technautics 12 volt holding plated system at the Annapolis show. This novice read the directions and actually installed it easily. Worked great, used little electricity, and froze the tomatoes until I regulated the thermostat. Highly recommend this system.


----------



## [email protected] (Mar 27, 2004)

Gentlemen - 
I have recently discovered the Waeco Coolmatic CB-36 or CB-40 which is a self contained insulated refrigerator or freezer from the makers of the Cold Machine that have the compressor mounted on the outside that would seem to fit into the large icebox on the P365. It is reported to only require about 6 hours per day running time in 86F ambient to cool to 41F. Anyone aware or have experience with these systems - they would seem to eliminate the need of rebuilding/insulating the icebox for efficiency


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Have you seen this site?


----------



## [email protected] (Mar 27, 2004)

*Update on P365 refrig system with Upgrades*

Gentlemen

Here is what I have come up with after all the research and discussion groups:

I am insulating my dry box (not large coffin ice box -13 cubic foot) the final internal dimensions will result in about a 3 cubic foot space - I used 3 to 4 inches of aluminum foil backed isocyanurate foam with an R value for 4 inches of 27. I used 6 mil poly encasing the foam. I will use a 1/4 inch pvc wall with silicone to finish the box. The equipment upgrades and approx. cost are as follows:
1) Sea frost DB compressor and cold plate (DC driven) = $1,200
2) 3 AGM type 27 batteries for house bank (100 amp ea.) = total $600
3) Balmar 70-YP-110 Yanmar Package 110 amp alternator and ARS 5 regulator with temperature controller = $800
4) Solatron system kyocera 130 watt panel and controller that can accomodate an additional panel = $800
5) Link 20 battery monitoring system dual bank = $275
I will use a marine electrician to hook up the regulator and monitor system at $65/hr =$700
Total cost for the 3 cubic foot refrigerator and the battery bank and power system to support it ======= $4,375

Boat yard said that if they were comissioned to do the job it would have probably run me about $12,000.00

I haven't bought all the equipment and finished the insulation due to the severe cold in the North East - but hopefully within the next couple of weeks I will start purchasing everything and button up the box.
Thanks again
Andy


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Here is my 2 cents..............*

The only way to go is a Engel or a pre-made pop in unit like a Norcold

Why dont you just cut a hole in the side of your ice box area, remove the box, and slide in a ready made fridge? ie Norcold or simular. This would be much much cheaper to install and much tougher than a complicated "marine" system.

http://www.norcold.com/acdc_de441.cfm
http://www.go2marine.com/product.do?no=83097F $$$

My 130 watt panel not only runs my Engel 35 but SSB, autopilot and everything else. Sounds like the system you are looking to get is a energy hog. 
******************************************************

All "marine" refrigeration is nothing but a nightmare. Rube Goldberg machines is all they are. Especially the engine driven units. Use a $20,000 engine and fuel to run a simple refrigerator? You have got to be nuts! Figure in the cost PER HR, including replacement and maintenance cost, to use your engine for refrigeration. Then you also have to fill them with refrigerant gas all the time, look at gauges and adjust valves etc. The 12v units are little better. They are still custom made and "custom" priced units. And then your cruising will soon be over because you spent all your money on installing it and now you have to repair it in the middle of nowhere. I have seen it all too often.

Why bother when you can have a mass manufactured, with economy of scale unit, that you just put in place/cut a hole and use? Then use a solar panel/wind generator that will last 15+ years to run it? The sun and wind are free and *IF* you run short from time to time then you can use a gennie/engine for power.


----------



## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

I have a Koolatron in the old boat. I run it on shore power and put in some frozen stuff before we leave. Then I cover it with a sleeping bag. That alone is good for 48 hours.

On the new boat, we have a NovaKool system http://www.novakool.com/products/conversion_units.htm
It draws 2.2 amps at 90 F ambient. I have a very well insulated and not overly huge fridge box, and have noticed that I need not adjust it above 2 on a scale of 1 to 7, even with the saloon at 90 F, which it can easily reach in summer (I won't tell you how hot the pilot house can get, just that I've bought windscoops!). It's a Danfoss compressor design, and is quiet, well-installed and well-vented. The previous owner did a great job.

I think that despite planning on having an enormous battery capacity (I am thinking of three to four 8D AGMs at this stage, as much for ballast as for capacity), the fact is that keeping large amounts of food cold is simply not worth it in terms of engine running or the other handstands you need to accomplish. It's easier to change one's eating habits, to shop for fresh, to fish, and lower wine into the depths to cool it off. I'm hardly a "simplicity over all" type like the Pardeys, say, but I don't have a vast fridge at home and the adjustment for us isn't severe. Planning is cheaper than just keeping a large cube of air cold.

But that's just me. I know people put great stock in their conveniences, and while I too will have a "solar farm" on the more sunlight parts of my deck and bimini, that will be to increase the amount of time I don't have to run the engine to make power, the time I can spend on the hook, and the time I can spend at sea independent of the shore. I may change my tune crossing the Equator some day, but I don't think so. The point of cruising to me is not to replicate my shoreside life, but to enjoy something a little more elemental. Certainly I see that a lot of cruisers seem to be delayed or stuck in distant ports with mechanical trouble, much of which seems to be refrigeration or diesel fuel-related.


----------



## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Andy-
Before you bring the marine electrician onto the boat, get a copy of "The 12 Volt Bible" or "The 12v Doctor" and read up. Then, ask the electrician to show you what he is doing and why he is doing it, you can be the apprentice and hold the flashlight for him. When you are done, you'll have a much better understanding of the what and why, and a good chance of being able to fix anything that fails at a later date--as things often do. 
12V electrics aren't that hard to get right, but sometimes it pays to hire a pro and get it done right fast. At least, to start with.<G>


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Check out :

http://www.avxcel.com/docs/TropiKool 40 Spec Sheet color 092205 r1.1.pdf


----------

