# Canadian resident registering boat in US. Duty question



## ykmaggie (Jun 1, 2012)

Hello

I'm hoping someone can help me with this question

We are in bit of a unique situation because we live in the Yukon and sail in Alaska

We have to register our boat there or leave US waters every 90 days. Obviously with a sailboat this doesn't work

The new boat we are thinking of buying is registered in Washington state and is a US flagged vessel

We were told my Canada customs that we would have to pay duty and GST on the boat when we cross the border into BC enroute to Alaska, and import the boat

This makes no sense to me, as it will go to Alaska to be registered and used there

We heard that they we a temporary transit form that can be used called From E 99. But when I talk to customs I get vague answers like it is up to the discretion of the officer whether we can use this

This situation would apply if we ever transitted back though Candian waters later, enroute to the US

Anyone have any insights on this?

I am a dual US/Canadian citizen and am able to also US document the boat, if that would help

Any thoughts?


Thanks

Ykmaggie


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

If it's a North American built boat there will be no duty, but there would be taxes. If it's euro or Asian built then duty would apply. BUT... none of that should matter until you actually import the boat, so I guess it's going to come down to the definition of 'importing' (I'd hope that involved actually registering or licensing the boat, as opposed to 'passing through')


With your dual citizenship you can be an 'American' passing through Canadian waters, n'est pas?
Or....
Ask Jackdale to help you sail it from WA to Alaska around the outside!!


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## ykmaggie (Jun 1, 2012)

Hi Faster

Its a Tashiba 31, so built in Taiwan. There is no State tax in Alaska

But I'm not importing it to Canada, it's already been imported to the US, and we would simply be taking it to Alaska. Why the Canadian government also feels I need to import it to take it there is beyond me. As an American flagged vessel, sailed by an American citizen, I don't understand why we would be treated any differently than visiting boats from the US in Canadian waters. The customs person said is was because our residence is in Canada, despite the fact that boat will be kept in the UAS


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Pt Roberts WA is a popular marina for lower mainland Canadian boaters.. but I believe the boats there (Canadian ones, that is) are registered or licenced in Canada. So they would have paid taxes etc, and need only clear customs in and out as usual.

Not sure how you're going to get 'around' the residency issue.. interesting.


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## ebs001 (May 8, 2006)

We bought our boat in Detriot and had to transit the Welland Canal. We were told by Canada Customs that we too would have to import the boat and pay the taxes. With the help of a local marina manager we were able to get special permission to transit the canal without importing the boat and thus avoiding the taxes. If you take the inside passage you will be in Canadian waters for quite some time where as we were in the canal for only a few hours (8 I think). You may be able to get a temporary work form that will allow you to have work done on your boat in Canada. Then you will have to return the boat to the US. This might work for you and would be worth investigating. You enter Canada from Washington State. Have some work done and then return to the US only this time to Alaska. I cannot give you form numbers but Canada customs issue these exemptions on a regular basis. It's worth a shot.
My first question to Canada Customs would be, as an American citizen what do I have to do to transit through Canadian waters. As an American you do not have to import the boat.


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## ykmaggie (Jun 1, 2012)

Hi ebs

The customs people told me the fact that I am a dual citizen makes no difference, it is because we reside in Canada that we have to pay the taxes and import the boat


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

ykmaggie said:


> Hi ebs
> 
> The customs people told me the fact that I am a dual citizen makes no difference, it is because we reside in Canada that we have to pay the taxes and import the boat


That is my understanding. Some friends had a US registered boat that they kept in Anacortes; they could not bring it to Canada. Another had his Canadian registered boat in Point Roberts; no problems.

WA to AK on the outside - ouch; against wind and current, and cold.


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## ebs001 (May 8, 2006)

ykm, so try the "having work done" route. Another way is to hire a US captain, actually any nationality but Canadian and he doesn't have to be a captain, to deliver the boat and don't take ownership until it's delivered to Alaska.
Canada Customs has some strange rules. Another frustrating rule is that, as a Canadian, you cannot rent a car in the US and drive it into Canada. In fact you cannot drive someone elses car.


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## ykmaggie (Jun 1, 2012)

Thank guys

I might end up having to do that. I have a American captain that would be able to do it for us. I just wanted to have the experience sailing it up here. We can always go along. I have emailed our MLA and asked him to get clarification on the form E 99 for temporary transit


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## ykmaggie (Jun 1, 2012)

Ok, the other thing I wondered about this residency thing, is what if I say we live half time in Alaska, on the boat?? We have a monthly shore power bill for our current boat to show we are there. Long shot I guess:laugher


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

ykmaggie said:


> Hi Faster
> 
> Its a Tashiba 31, so built in Taiwan. There is no State tax in Alaska
> 
> But I'm not importing it to Canada, it's already been imported to the US, and we would simply be taking it to Alaska. Why the Canadian government also feels I need to import it to take it there is beyond me. As an American flagged vessel, sailed by an American citizen, I don't understand why we would be treated any differently than visiting boats from the US in Canadian waters. The customs person said is was because our residence is in Canada, despite the fact that boat will be kept in the UAS


*big meany alert*
Uh, because you LIVE in Canada? You got your answer, you just didn't like it.
Remember the health care and other benefits you like about living in Canada? Taxes pay for it. Part of evading paying taxes is it requires some inconvenience. If the inconvenience is such a pain in the ass, pay the taxes. The rest of us have to.


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## ykmaggie (Jun 1, 2012)

I think you missed my point. I live in Canada but will ONLY sail this boat in Alaska, the USA unless you missed that too. This is evading taxes? Uh, I don't think so!

Thanks for the reply and have a wonderful evening)


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

What proof does the Canadian government have that you will ONLY sail this boat in Alaska?
See, that's the point. You live in Canada. You are bringing the boat into Canadian waters. Not paying the tax, sunshine, is tax evasion. You may not like the term but that is what it is. Oh, I know, I know, you don't plan to KEEP the boat here, you know, even though you LIVE here. You';re just going through to Alaska yeah, that's it.


How often do you think Customs hears THAT story?

You got the answer direct from the source, you didn't like the answer, you came here looking for advice on how to evade the tax due, and now you're gonna fire off a hissy letter to your MLA?

Not a smart move if you like to sail on the downlow and sometimes enter canadian ports.

Why did you buy the boat you bought, where you bought it?
It was a good deal.
Why do you sail Alaska? 
No tax. It's a good deal.
Now you're complaining about paying taxes that everybody else has to pay, because you think you have a better story?
If you're an American citizen, why not list your Alaska slip as your American address, thereby making it all legal?

duh right back at ya.


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## ykmaggie (Jun 1, 2012)

I'm not sure what is up with you, or if this is the way you always are

I don't care for the tone or the disrespect. Clearly you have a large ego and like to hear your voice

We live 1.5 hours from the Alaskan Coast. That is why we sail there. It would take us 2 straight weeks of sailing to hit the Canadian border at Prince Rupert. That is why we don't sail there

Two other things, yes I do have a US post box and a slip, but no I don't need to use those, because I am not importing the boat. 

Second, I wrote to our MLA 6 weeks ago, not this second

Conversation closed

Have a great night!


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

What did your MLA say?


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## cupper3 (Jun 30, 2010)

bljones said:


> What did your MLA say?


If he truly contacted his MLA, the answer probably would be "Huh?".

MLA's are provincial, and have nothing to do with customs, which is federal jurisdiction.

His MP, however, may be able to help.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

If the boat will be moored in Alaska and the OP is a US citizen who has an address in Alaska and the boat will only be used in Alaska, why is the OP not registering the boat using the Alaska address therefore doing everything all nice and legal-like and no issues with taxation?


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

cupper3 said:


> If he truly contacted his MLA, the answer probably would be "Huh?".
> 
> MLA's are provincial, and have nothing to do with customs, which is federal jurisdiction.
> 
> His MP, however, may be able to help.


Hey, you better watch that tone and that disrespect, mister.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

bljones said:


> Why do you sail Alaska?


BL

A little Canadian geography. Yukon is essentially land locked.










Yes, the OP would be best off to pay register the boat in Canada, pay the Canadian taxes, and enjoy the inside passage.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Yes, I get the geography, jack.


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## Siroco (Nov 10, 2006)

I am canadian and sail lake Champlain in NY/VT, owning a canadian registered boat. 

I am no expert in the matter but many canadian boaters around us own US registered boats and bring them to the canadian side every winter and are knowned as "inbound" boats. The only draw back is that they have to be back in US water by a certain date (July?) and need to apply for longer stays to perform repairs. 

Maybe this works for boats entering and leaving canadian waters through the same custom? May be the OP can check with Transport Canada?

I wonder how long (or short) is the sailing season in Alaska...

Good luck


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## ebs001 (May 8, 2006)

bljones said:


> If the boat will be moored in Alaska and the OP is a US citizen who has an address in Alaska and the boat will only be used in Alaska, why is the OP not registering the boat using the Alaska address therefore doing everything all nice and legal-like and no issues with taxation?


This will not work. Because he lives in Canada he has to import the boat to transit BC. The boat will never see Canadian waters again. If he bought the boat in Washington and kept it there this would not be an issue. It's only because he wants to relocate the boat and has to transit through Canada to do so and he is a Canadian resident, that it becomes a problem. 
I believe we should pay taxes that are due, but this import tax is unjustified. He does not want to import the boat. As a solution, before taking ownership, YKM can have anyone other than a Canadian take the boat through Canadian waters. He can even accompany the "rental" captain. That makes no sense


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## ebs001 (May 8, 2006)

jackdale said:


> BL
> 
> Yes, the OP would be best off to pay register the boat in Canada, pay the Canadian taxes, and enjoy the inside passage.


In the OP registering the boat in Canada would present another set of problems and he would have to then re-register the boat in Alaska. This is not about enjoying the inside passage but about relocating a boat which unfortunately for this purchaser is through Canada where being a resident is a disadvantage.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Tax evasion is criminal, but applies if you actually owe the taxes and lie about not owing them.

Tax avoidance is not criminal and applies when you follow the rules and don't owe them.

The OP is clearly asking about tax avoidance. When you ask the guy with his hand out for advice on how to legally not pay him, you wonder if there might be a better idea out there when he says you owe him no matter what. That's legit.

Its become a recent revelation to me that there are so many Canadians that use the US to legally avoid their own taxes.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

ebs001 said:


> ykm, so try the "having work done" route. Another way is to hire a US captain, actually any nationality but Canadian and he doesn't have to be a captain, to deliver the boat and don't take ownership until it's delivered to Alaska.
> Canada Customs has some strange rules. Another frustrating rule is that, as a Canadian, you cannot rent a car in the US and drive it into Canada. In fact you cannot drive someone elses car.


I am Canadian and have many times rented a car in the US and driven back into Canada with it. Rental companies I have dealt with include a permission letter with the rental contract.

I have also delivered Canadian boats into US waters with the sales contract in my pocket (not a broker, just a messenger), then handed the boat over to the American buyers so they do not have to pay sales taxes here as technically with the hand over of the vessel that completes the sale.


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## ebs001 (May 8, 2006)

Siroco said:


> I am canadian and sail lake Champlain in NY/VT, owning a canadian registered boat.
> 
> I am no expert in the matter but many canadian boaters around us own US registered boats and bring them to the canadian side every winter and are knowned as "inbound" boats. The only draw back is that they have to be back in US water by a certain date (July?) and need to apply for longer stays to perform repairs.
> 
> ...


My understanding is that these US registered boats get a temporary work permit to bring the boat into Canada. At the expiration of the permit they must return the boat to the US. I have suggested this solution to the OP.
These permits are issued by CCBA (Canada Customs)


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

It was the insulting "duh" that set me off.
And the persistence in wanting to hear the answer they want to hear even though,
They have already talked to customs, they already know what forms they need, they have already gotten their territorial rep involved. 
The OP has already gotten the answer- the OP just didn't like it.


Why do buyers NOT do this homework BEFORE they buy the boat?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

bljones said:


> .....Why do buyers NOT do this homework BEFORE they buy the boat?


Because trade is instinctive. Taxes are man made.


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## ykmaggie (Jun 1, 2012)

Thanks guys for all the great responses!

It looks like we have 2 options, one is to try and get the temporary permit. My husband talked to customs, they told him it is called form E99, and is a legitimate way for Canadians to transit their US registered boat through Canadian waters. 

We can't register the boat in Canada, it has to be registered in Alaska, because otherwise we would have to move it out of US waters every 90 days. Not an option. It would take us a month to sail to Prince Rupert and back. 

The other option is to hire a US captain as you say, and I have one in mind that would do the trip with us

I did hear back from the MP initially, just to say he would get back to me. I emailed him because I was getting conflicting information when I called customs. The issue seems to be somewhat discretionary, and this is a fairly unique situation. Now that seems to be sorted out hopefully but we will never know until we get there with the boat. We have the form printed out

To answer the question about the sailing season here, yeah it is short - April - August. But there's no place in the world I'd rather be than Southeast Alaska on a nice summer day


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## safira (May 10, 2010)

You may want to research out the "rights to passage" this would bypass all the customs hoo haa if you claimed it .... it has to do with maritime law


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## Trapper (Jun 2, 2012)

bl... YKM was responding to your 'Uh' in your initial post with the same word... the 'duh' was all yours.

Further to the discussion tho', the Canada Customs officials have a great deal of discretion in how the E99 can be applied. I believe it's intended to be used for a short period of time as opposed to a two week transit to Wrangell, Alaska. While the official can support the application, it would be unfortunate to be greeted by one who's having a bad day.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Then, OP, I apologize for seeing a "D" that apparently wasn't there.


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## ebs001 (May 8, 2006)

boatpoker said:


> I am Canadian and have many times rented a car in the US and driven back into Canada with it. Rental companies I have dealt with include a permission letter with the rental contract.
> 
> I have also delivered Canadian boats into US waters with the sales contract in my pocket (not a broker, just a messenger), then handed the boat over to the American buyers so they do not have to pay sales taxes here as technically with the hand over of the vessel that completes the sale.


As far as renting a car is concerned this has not been my experience nor does it agree with the information I have been given by Canada Customs. Rental companies would not rent me a car if I was a Canadian and wanted to bring it into Canada. This was about 6 years ago so maybe things have changed.
As far as delivering a boat from Canada to the US that is a completely different scenerio than what we are discussing here. The OP only wants to transit Canadian waters.


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## ebs001 (May 8, 2006)

ykmaggie said:


> Thanks guys for all the great responses!
> 
> It looks like we have 2 options, one is to try and get the temporary permit. My husband talked to customs, they told him it is called form E99, and is a legitimate way for Canadians to transit their US registered boat through Canadian waters.
> 
> ...


YKM, just a word of caution regarding the E99. When we were trying to transit the Welland Canal we were told by one CCBA official we could use the form. Another said no. Another said maybe. Another said something else. CCBA seem to have no idea what they doing. You ask three CCBA officials and you'l get at least 4 answers. So if you can, get the form pre-approved then provide little information unless asked. Good luck, you'll need it.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

ebs001 said:


> As far as renting a car is concerned this has not been my experience nor does it agree with the information I have been given by Canada Customs. Rental companies would not rent me a car if I was a Canadian and wanted to bring it into Canada. This was about 6 years ago so maybe things have changed.QUOTE]
> 
> I've been doing it at least twice a year since the early 90's. Never had a problem with the rental company or customs.


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## jentine (Sep 4, 2000)

Let me see if I understand the problem correctly: An American citizen wants to take a US flagged vessel from a US port through Canada to a US port and Canada requires import and GS taxes. What am I missing? Where is the need to check into Canada? Proceed through their waters non stop and rest up in Alaska.
Personally, I would sail the boat to Mexico.

Jim


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

jentine said:


> ....What am I missing?....


Dual citizen who actually lives in Canada and benefits from the stuff that those taxes are supposed to be paying for.

(not that I'm defending Canada's tax system)


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

ebs001 said:


> ykm, so try the "having work done" route. Another way is to hire a US captain, actually any nationality but Canadian and he doesn't have to be a captain, to deliver the boat and don't take ownership until it's delivered to Alaska.
> Canada Customs has some strange rules. Another frustrating rule is that, as a Canadian, you cannot rent a car in the US and drive it into Canada. In fact you cannot drive someone elses car.


Not quite true. We were living in the New Jersey (Canadians) and had a car registered in NJ in my wife's name (she was on a work visa). I drove to Niagara Falls on the way to Toronto by myself and was denied entry - which caused a bit of a problem when I went back across the bridge to the US. For awhile I thought I might have become a resident of the Horseshoe Bridge - not able to enter either country. Anyway, I digress. The Canadian customs guys said this problem happens fairly often and said I should go to the US and rent a car to enter Canada. Did this and there was no problem entering Canada - just showed the rental agreement. Left my car in long-term storage at Buffalo airport.


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## ykmaggie (Jun 1, 2012)

YKM, just a word of caution regarding the E99. When we were trying to transit the Welland Canal we were told by one CCBA official we could use the form. Another said no. Another said maybe. Another said something else. CCBA seem to have no idea what they doing. You ask three CCBA officials and you'l get at least 4 answers. So if you can, get the form pre-approved then provide little information unless asked. Good luck, you'll need it.

EBS001, that above is exactly what we're worried about, and why we've put off buying this boat until we know what's up. This is also why I asked our MP to look into it. It makes me nervous to get multiple and conflicting answers from different officials. I'll see if we can what you suggest and get it preapproved

We might have to regroup and buy a North American made boat, which solves the duty problem. We just pay the GST and be done with it because the Yukon has no territorial tax. I love the Tashiba boat, but not at any price. We also looked at a Pacific seacraft that was very nice


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## ykmaggie (Jun 1, 2012)

> YKM, just a word of caution regarding the E99. When we were trying to transit the Welland Canal we were told by one CCBA official we could use the form. Another said no. Another said maybe. Another said something else. CCBA seem to have no idea what they doing. You ask three CCBA officials and you'l get at least 4 answers. So if you can, get the form pre-approved then provide little information unless asked. Good luck, you'll need it


EBS001, that above is exactly what we're worried about, and why we've put off buying this boat until we know what's up. This is also why I asked our MP to look into it. It makes me nervous to get multiple and conflicting answers from different officials. I'll see if we can what you suggest and get it preapproved

We might have to regroup and buy a North American made boat, which solves the duty problem. We just pay the GST and be done with it because the Yukon has no territorial tax. I love the Tashiba boat, but not at any price. We also looked at a Pacific seacraft that was very nice


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"You ask three CCBA officials and you'l get at least 4 answers."
We have the same problem with agencies in the US. The answer is that you ask in writing, with a letter, and because the agency can still say "well that was only an opinion" you ask for a _formal _"advisory opinion" or other statement that will be upheld by the entire department.

Taxing is all about venue and jurisdiction. If the tax laws say "any resident" or "any citizen" and any presence within the boundaries...Yes, crossing into home water for ten minutes while in transit could still trigger tax jurisdiction.

If it does, and the formal written statement says it does, and your elected politicians can't get you a more powerful letter saying otherwise...then you either PAY because that's the law, or find another way around it.

Sell the boat to an American for $100. You'll pay some title or registration fee or maybe just a temporary tag fee. Now sail up to Alaska with them and buy it back. Voila, no Canadian tax jurisdiction. Or sail it up the outside. If you can't get a written qualification and don't want to pay the tax, get creative and get the boat outside the tax jurisdiction.

Or just sail up in a hurry on a moonless night, making sure your powder is dry and you shoot first. Stranger things have been known to happen.


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