# Stuffing Box Hose Blues



## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

Da na na na na...
Got my stuffing box apart...
da na na na na...
brought it on home...
da na na na na...
got it all cleaned up...
da na na na na...
but now the hose is so tight...

Well it's, so tight baby, I can't get the fitting in...

So now I'm singin' ... singin' the stuffing box blues.

OK, ok, I'll stop. But, seriously, the ID for the Buck Algonquin hose is 1 3/4", and the OD for the fitting (the stuffing box body) is about 1 7/8". That extra 1/8" makes it REALLY tough to get it to fit. I left the heat gun on the boat, so that's not an option. Can I boil some water and let the hose soak in it? What other tips do you have for getting it to fit?

Any tips that would also translate well for when I'm installing this on the boat (which I presume has a similarly over-size fitting) are also appreciated.

Before anyone asks...yes, I have 4 of the hose clamps, not just the 2 in the picture.


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## oysterman23 (Jul 22, 2011)

jimgo said:


> Da na na na na...
> Got my stuffing box apart...
> da na na na na...
> brought it on home...
> ...


Enquiring Minds want to Know (i have to do this in May) 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

I do believe you are going to have to get the right hose. I wouldn't waste my time trying to fit the two together. Using enough heat to get that hose all the way on the gland will most likely damage the hose and weaken it considerably. This is a semi permanent installation, so it makes no sense not doing it right the first time.


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## desert rat (Feb 14, 2013)

If soap or glycerine doesn't work it is the wrong size, something will break putting it together.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

The o.d. of the shaft log is presumably going to be the same as the stuffing box, so you're in for a nightmare back aboard as well. You need the right size hose. You can't stretch an internally reinforced hose. An 1/8" is a lot. I've had nightmares trying to retrofit SAE hoses onto metric fittings that were so close, you could hardly tell.


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

Next size up in Buck Algonquin coupling hose is 2 inch. Looks like your choices are too small or too large.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

The barbs on that nipple look rounded over. Maybe you should consider replacing the whole unit. It's possible someone may have used a file on it already when they had the same problem you're having. Heating it up enough to stretch it that far is a bad idea. I would not take a chance with something so inaccessible and critical to staying afloat. Maybe you'll get lucky and the new threaded part will be the same as the old so you can leave the hull side on.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

Unfortunately you will need an 1 7/8" hose. It is too bad builders went this route but back in the day they went with the cheapest vendors and often times the cheapest vendors used odd ball sizes.. You will need to try and source a 4 ply non-wire reinforced wet exhaust hose. I was able to find one a few years ago but can't remember where. If you can't find a 4 ply then you will need to use a 2 ply such as Shields #200. Call Trident and Shields and see what they have in 1 7/8" in a 4 ply no-wire hose....

T-Band clamps should not be used in bilge areas! The spot welds are prone to crevice corrosion and failure.... Use AWAB 316SS no-perforated clamps...


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

Jim,

My solution to this problem was to convert to a dripless PSS shaft seal...


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

James, as I look at having to replace more and more of the stuffing box, the PSS is becoming more cost-effective. I may have to bite the bullet and install one.

Thanks to everyone for weighing in. I thought maybe I was nuts, or not doing something right. As JimsCAL pointed out, the only hose sizes I saw were 1.75" and 2". The 2" is listed as being for a larger diameter prop shaft, so I decided to go with the 1.75". I didn't even realize that there WAS an intermediate size!

Main Sail, thanks for your feedback, especially about the band clamps.

What I'm now having trouble understanding is how the shaft log works. On my boat, there is a large metal plate in the area where the shaft passes through the hull. The shaft log (I hope I'm using the right term; it's the pipe/tube that the shaft actually passes through) appears to be integrated into this metal plate. Am I wrong? Does the shaft log somehow get fitted into the metal piece (e.g., is it threaded in)?

The picture is big, so I'm not going to embed it in the thread, but here's a picture of the shaft log area. It's tough to make everything out because of the corrosion:

http://dragonwingsailboat.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/img_3667.jpg

If I go with a PSS, will I avoid having to replace the shaft log?


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## Dave_E (Aug 7, 2013)

Jim,

I'm replacing my PSS in a couple weeks. You've gone this far Bud... finish it as best you can. You won't regret it.

Dave


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Jim the PSS bellow tube still needs to go onto the shaft log tube. So it's still about ID and OD sizes. 
I did a PSS on my boat some 5 yrs ago, no regrets. and there is dust where there used to be water dripping 

This looks so easy under "show conditions" LOL 
PSS Install Video - YouTube

Shaft alignment; 





what shaft logs look like. there are many types, but yours is most likely something like this. In my boat it's a FG tube.


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

OK, a few more questions. In the picture in my original post, the stuffing box body has barbs. I agree with smurphny, the barbs are more rounded over than pointy. Assuming this was new, and the barbs were pointier, would you measure the diameter at the tip of the pointy part of the barb, or would you measure the diameter as the base of the barb? I was trying to see how big of a difference there was between the ID of the hose and the thing that I was trying to fit into the hose. When I got the 1 7/8", I was measuring right at the "mouth", and did not take the barb height into account.

When I look at the stuffing boxes sold by Hamilton Marine (e.g., Packing Box Body 1"" Plain bronze 1""), I see that they don't have barbs at all. So, is the rounded nature of my barbs a problem?

The reason I ask is that I know I can find 2" hose. With the barb height, I might be close to 2" (I'm at work and can't measure right now). If the stuffing box body really is 1 7/8", then I'm going to assume that the shaft log is also 1 7/8" (I'll measure to be sure before I buy anything). Given that I can't get the better quality hose in the size that I need, I am naturally a bit concerned about safety. If this was above the waterline, I wouldn't worry as much. But this is kind of an important part. In that case, I may go with the PSS. But, there again, I need to know the size of the shaft log and how to measure it properly, because (as is almost always the case when my luck is involved) PSS sells one that fits 1 3/4 to 1 7/8", and they sell another one that is for 2".


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

I think you measured right bud...fwiw well actually edit I think you should measure the tube diameter at the highest point since you are looking at connecting id on the hose and od on the box...so take into account the barb

I dont see any isssues at ALL with warming the new hose up in water and soaping up both ends

I would try this first, it should be tight and it might end up working for you, before you go pss...

just a thought

is the lip or barb corroded? it might be bigger than new, so try removing as much scale and corrosion as possible and try...or is the pic you are showing of a new box? or cleaned up old one?

if still no go go 2 inch psss


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

Thanks Denise! I didn't see your post until after I replied above. I think you are probably right about the shape of the shaft log. I think the wide base in the picture you posted is on the outside of my hull, and is bolted to the hull by the bolts you can see in this picture:

http://dragonwingsailboat.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/img_3667.jpg

In looking at my picture more closely, I see that the shaft log does not appear to have barbs. That should simplify the measuring!



christian.hess said:


> is the lip or barb corroded? it might be bigger than new, so try removing as much scale and corrosion as possible and try...


I cleaned all of the corrosion off. I may give the warm water bath and soap idea a try because I really have nothing to lose except damaging the hose. Though, as a practical matter, this isn't going to help me when I get to the boat, because if the shaft log is the same diameter, making it fit is going to be REALLY tough.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

You're Welcome Jim  
funny, doing a search for 1-7/8" only PSS comes up for the bellows, they call it a "stern tube" Loose fitting hose will leak even with good clamps! 

The barbs on cast bronze parts aren't usually well defined like the machined parts done on lathes


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

For what it's worth, I have calls in to Shields and Trident to get their recommendations on hose. I haven't heard back from them yet.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

I think this should be REALLY tight so warming and cussing , and using whatever methods to get it on should be tried

good luck!


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

Trident was very nice - they said they don't make a 1 7/8" hose in anything but 2-ply. I did find a company, NovaFlex, who makes a 4-ply marine wet exhaust hose. And they are in West Berlin, NJ (so, relatively close). Unfortunately they don't sell direct. They gave me the name of a reseller in NJ, and the reseller doesn't have the NovaFlex 260 in stock. He's going to see if he can get them to send him a sample that's big enough for my needs. I'm keeping my fingers crossed! Otherwise, it's looking like I'll either have to go with a 2-ply, or do the PSS.

I'd like to do a PSS, but we have some other major expenses coming up and I'd like to put off the cost of the PSS.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

It seems kind a strange that there is such a misfit with the available hose sizes. Is it possibly metric? Here's a link to the Buck Algonquin sizes:Packing Boxes for sale. Buy your Packing Boxes today and save. If you can id the exact unit you have maybe you can get the right parts. I do not agree that you should try to stretch a misfitting hose. It should slide over snugly, with a bit of effort. Applying a little hot-water type heat is ok but don't go for the torch! You'll carbonize the rubber and displace the wire inside, weakening the hose.


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

I would measure the OD of the shaft log as carefully as possible. Based on your comments that your measurement of the stuffing box didn't include the barbs, it could be a 2 inch hose will work. 

I understand those that like the PSS glands. I am not in that group however. I don't like the possibility (even if it's remote) that if it starts leaking in the middle of the season I have to haul the boat. A standard gland can be worked on with the boat in the water. And I really don't mind making occasional adjustments and the periodic repacking. KISS.


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

Jim, that's my current plan. I'm going to swing past the boat early Friday morning to take the measurement, then head to a local prop shop to get the shaft and coupling fit and faced. I'll also probably have the shaft trued while I'm there. I'll see what they have in the way of hose that might work. Then I'll head back and start the install.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I'm a big fan of the PSS shaft seal, but will offer more info for future consideration. They recommend replacement every 5 yrs. The cost difference between the entire unit and only the wearables isn't that great and many just do the whole thing. I still say they are worth it, but more to consider in the budget. The standard stuffing box should have this mystery hose replaced too, so you should buy a few extra lengths, just in case. 

p.s. the right size hose is really necessary. While I appreciate some suggesting you try, a reinforced hose just doesn't stretch. That's essentially the reason they reinforce them.


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

I took the day off and visited Dragon Wing today. I cleaned the shaft log and used calipers to measure it. The OD is 2". I used the calipers to measure the stuffing box the yesterday morning (rather than just using the tape measure across the widest part of the mouth), too - it's 2", not 1 7/8". That made me feel better, because I couldn't get any 1 7/8" hose that was more than 2 ply. I called a local dealer of Buck Algonquin hose, and they ordered some 2" ID for me. They said that their orders typically arrive next day, but they are only open M-F, so I took off today to get the hose. I also took the prop shaft and coupling/flange to the prop shop.

Have I mentioned that I don't really have the best of luck?

The owner of the prop shop is the only one who can run the lathe that is used to true the shaft and to do the fitting and facing. He had a doctor's appointment this morning, and the staff said they weren't sure if he was coming back today. Normally, it's the kind of thing they can do same-day, while you wait. But not today.

Since I was there and was waiting for the stuffing box hose, I knocked out a few small projects at the boat. I called the vendor at 1:30 PM to see if the package arrived. They had trouble finding the box, but eventually they did. When they opened it, the hose clamps I ordered were in there, but not the hose.

At this rate, I could have dropped the prop shaft off tomorrow (Saturday) and I could have ordered the stupid hose online, thus avoiding wasting a vacation day. 'Twas not a good day.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

That's a standard boat day. One step forward, one step back. Somehow, I still get where I am going. No one knows how. That 2" hose identification was a plus.

I just installed my entire dodger, bimini and side curtains in the dark. It is going to rain tonight. Can't wait to see what I did wrong in the morning.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

jimgo said:


> I took the day off and visited Dragon Wing today. I cleaned the shaft log and used calipers to measure it. The OD is 2". I used the calipers to measure the stuffing box the yesterday morning (rather than just using the tape measure across the widest part of the mouth), too - it's 2", not 1 7/8". That made me feel better, because I couldn't get any 1 7/8" hose that was more than 2 ply. I called a local dealer of Buck Algonquin hose, and they ordered some 2" ID for me. They said that their orders typically arrive next day, but they are only open M-F, so I took off today to get the hose. I also took the prop shaft and coupling/flange to the prop shop.
> 
> Have I mentioned that I don't really have the best of luck?
> 
> ...


I don't know if this will make you feel better, but I hope so. Yesterday one of the fittings on our fresh water pressure system manifold developed a leak. With the closest Home Depot 300 miles to the north west and since we're headed south, we tried a couple of o-rings with no success. Silicone sealant is holding for now, but being on a French island there is no chance for a fitting with US threads here. Next possible island which might, just might, have something which will do, is St. Lucia, but being a British island I'm not at all convinced their hardware stores will carry US threaded fittings. So, at my best estimate, it will be about 2 months before I can get a $3.00 part on the boat, never mind the $25.00 shipping on that $3 part. So, a week end to wait isn't really all that bad.  Ain't yachting fun?


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

Capta, thanks. I'm not sure that it makes me feel better, but it does put my problem into perspective.  I hope you guys are enjoying your honeymoon! FWIW, I have some "RTV silicone gasket sealant" from an auto-parts store. That seems to work well for applications where typical silicone caulk isn't quite robust enough.

Minne, I did get my dodger and bimini installed today. I realized that I was missing the straps that keep the dodger up, so I had to improvise, but hey, they are both up. I managed to do mine in the daylight, before the storm came. Good luck with yours; hope you got everything right!


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## arvicola-amphibius (Apr 14, 2012)

If there is too much free play in the shaft, you really should replace the cutless bearing while you are at it. Although it can be a bugger of a job, the consequences of not doing it include vibration, possible damage to gearbox and premature wear of the expensive shaft and PSS itself. These dripless seals are marvellous, but if they do fail, the boat will sink far quicker than would usually be the case with a leaky stuffing box.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

arvicola-amphibius said:


> .....These dripless seals are marvellous, but if they do fail, the boat will sink far quicker than would usually be the case with a leaky stuffing box.


Probably the same as the connector hose letting go on a stuffing box. Although, I've never heard of a PSS bellows letting go, especially within the 5 yr recommended lifespan. Has anyone else?


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Jim! It was not a bad day!


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## jimrafford (Jan 7, 2011)

About to start the same project myself. Been procrastinating this project since we purchased 2 summers ago and obviously the boat needs to be hauled. We're hauling out next week for new bottom paint. Going to replace the cutlass bearing while we're at it. As far as I can tell nothing has been done to the stuffing box in a long time. The coupler is a pile of rust. Have been soaking it w/ PB Blaster all winter. Was able to remove all coupler bolts last weekend. Next is cutting the coupler to remove it from the shaft. Good rainy day project.
Jim


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## jimrafford (Jan 7, 2011)

Mission accomplished. 
It took longer to set up dust control and fire prevention than to do the job. About an hour w/ 4 1/2" grinder cutting on top of the key way. A few taps on a chisel in the cut and the coupler is off. Much easier than I expected.
Can"t go any farther til I'm on the hard.
Jim


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Just amazing how well those metal cutting wheels work Jim isn't it? I have a 14" metal chop saw and when doing things on the wheeled cradle for my boat it's usually easier to use the grinder with cutting wheel


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

I feel your pain A couple of months ago, on a mooring in FL, I took on the long delayed task of separating the shaft coupling. The bolts had been soaked with PbB for a LONG time and were going nowhere. This is at arm's reach, mind you, of course, where it cannot be seen except with mirrors. Well, I went to Home Depot and bought that small profile Milwaukee rechargeable recip saw and a bunch of metal blades and succeeded in cutting off the nuts by feel. What a great little tool! It took the better part of a day and three or four blades but I finally got all the bolts cut off. The shaft alignment, which I had been worried about, since it had not been checked in so long was, of course perfect, needing no mount adjustments


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## jimrafford (Jan 7, 2011)

Made my day.
Don't think I'd want to do the same job in a gas boat. Quite the spark show! Melted the lens on one of my LED lights.
Jim


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

jimrafford said:


> Made my day.
> Don't think I'd want to do the same job in a gas boat. Quite the spark show! Melted the lens on one of my LED lights.
> Jim


Yes, that's why I didn't grind the bolts off which would have been much quicker. I have a small grinder on board that actually works off the inverter but thought grinding would be a great way to start a fire and to do damage to the tranny and anything else, not being able to actually see it. No way to control the sparks way in there. With the little saw, I was able to go slow and check it with a mirror now and then to make sure I was cutting only what needed to be cut. Was able to slice the nut side off flush with the coupling, doing no damage to the coupling, tranny seal, or anything else.

I'm not a big fan of Milwaukee tools but this is a great little saw to have on the boat:http://www.homedepot.com/p/Milwaukee-M12-12-Volt-Lithium-Ion-Cordless-Hackzall-Reciprocating-Saw-1-Battery-Kit-2420-21/202311908


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## jimrafford (Jan 7, 2011)

Bolts wasn't the issue. The coupler was. I have a coupler flange puller. Not enough room for it. The coupler had to be split. No way around it. I considered cutting w/ a saw but the grinder did a much faster and easier job. Lots of wet towels covering everything helped a bunch.
Jim


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Jim, two thoughts in the event that soap (or grease) and brute force won't do.

Maybe there's enough meat on that fitting to polish it down a bit, taking down the ribs without compromising the strength?

Or the opposite, have a shop fill it and shim it out, so it fits the 2" hose, and get that.

I wish someone could magically invent an inductively coupled electric motor/prop, so we could just stop making holes in otherwise watertight hulls...I know, all it takes is money.(G)


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

Hello, thanks for the suggestion. I re-measured with calipers, and it's 2". So, I'm good. I have the hose on order. I'll be assembling everything as soon as it arrives. Hopefully I'll have everything together soon. If I can get back to the boat.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

bingo


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

Well THAT looks a little better!


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Nice! I see some sailing in your future!


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

Minne, I sure hope so! 


So, does anyone want to purchase a 1 3/4" stuffing box hose and some band clamps? The cost to ship them back to Hamilton Marine hardly makes it worth trying to return them.


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

Persistence pays off Jim. Good work!

Someone at your club will want that Buck Algonquin hose and hose clamps. Just maybe not this year. But you will make a friend if you "donate" those items, when the time comes.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Jimisun... clamp on... clamp off....  sand de floor... wax on wax off


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

Tada!

I will say, I am REALLY glad that I had the shaft and flange fit and faced. The shop made sure the flange slid on fairly easily, which made assembly easy.


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## Dave_E (Aug 7, 2013)

Hi Jim,

Looks good! I tore mine apart today and the shaft pressed off OK! My stuffing box is only 1 3/4". Yours was 2", I guess the Allmands weren't standard. I'll post my pictures in a new thread this next week. I'm taking pictures as I go along.

Dave


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Nicely done. Nobody at a boat yard could have done it better!
Now you have a new trade, should your job get sent overseas.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

jimgo said:


> Tada!
> 
> I will say, I am REALLY glad that I had the shaft and flange fit and faced. The shop made sure the flange slid on fairly easily, which made assembly easy.


Looks great Jim!


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

nicely done!


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

Persistence pays off.
Well done Jim.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Terrific job. Both rewarding and piece of mind. Congrats.


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

Thanks for the encouragement and kind words. Dave, I am VERY jealous of you being able to remove your flange so easily.


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## jimrafford (Jan 7, 2011)

Took this past week off to do our short haul. New bottom paint and replace the stuffing box, coupler and cutlass bearing. All was going well til the cutlass bearing. While pressing the old bearing out the strut started to fall apart. Crap! Galvanic corrosion. All because the PO got lazy and didn't replace zincs.
Spent the last 2 days getting access to the area where the strut is bolted on. Remove a holding tank. Remove the fuel tank and yes it was full. Ground out 2 of the bolts today. Should be able to get the other 2 tomorrow and then grind out the strut. What a PIA but I'm glad I discovered the problem before the strut failed.


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

Jim, good luck with the replacement! Sorry to hear about the problem, but I'm glad that you found it before things got REALLY bad.


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

We splashed Thursday, and took the boat today. Had a little trouble starting her (batteries were lower than I expected), but eventually she started. Everything ran great! The packing gland dripped like it was supposed to. Maybe a bit too much, but not incredibly so, and I'll deal with that. I reached in over the engine at one point and although the engine was still hot, the stuffing box wasn't. So, I take that as a good sign.

Thanks everyone for your help and encouragement!


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

Good news! You must be feeling pretty good about this.


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## Dave_E (Aug 7, 2013)

Wahooooooooooooooooooooooooo!


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