# Jib sheets, In or Out??



## Cope44 (Sep 11, 2008)

Hello again folks.

My question is should the jib sheets be run inside the stays or out side?

On my last sail I ran the sheets on the outside, the sheath was damaged and the line seemed to hang up on every tack. With the sheet ran on the inside of the stays it seems the jib will rub on the stays causing damage to it.

The boat is a 21' Clipper Marine. (Please don't move this to the orphan boats section, I have had a post there for a week with no responses. I think thats where post go to die?) 

Here is a pick of the sheet position.










Thanks for the help.

Cope


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

run on outside.

You can get PVC tube and cover the shrouds so they don't schaffe the sheets.

Several speciality houses sell a tube that is slotted along all its lenght so you can put it around the shrouds.

Hope it helps..

In the mean time I am locating the tube I refer to.

Edit...HERE YOU GO ...go buy a few feet of this and tell everyone uncle Giu sent you....


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## Cope44 (Sep 11, 2008)

*Thanks!*

Thanks for the answer.

I will continue to run the sheets outside the stays. (+ add some pipe to cover the rigging.)

I know this is not the right thread, But I would like to thank you for the "learn to sail vids". You have a beautiful boat and family, and inspire more than you will ever know.

Thanks again, and keep doing what you do so well.

Cope


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

You're welcome.

By the way..I really really love your avatar...

When I was young and couldn't afford much, we used tygon tubing or small diameter hose on the shrouds. Not as pretty but does the same job.

On the bottom, to cover the turnbuckles use a larger diameter pipe or tube.

Alex


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## chipdance (Sep 21, 2008)

I'm still very new to sailing, my first sail was on my first boat (1979 MacGregor Venture 25) which I bought about 4 weeks ago. On my boat there are some rope locks (the pinch kind, not cleats, proper name?) located to the outside and back of the cabin. There are three on each side. they are labeled and include one on each side for "jib sheet". I don't have a rolling furler, so when using my "storm jib" (approx 70%) the sheets seem to naturally run on the inside of the stays almost straight back to the "locks". The boat has had many mods so I am not sure if these locks are stock but it seems to be a good fit. When using the larger jib (genoa? about 130%) I find those locks not very useful because of the angle from the clew to the locks around either the outside or the inside of the stays. Does anyone have any thoughts about my particular setup? Are the locks stock? Is it a bad idea to run the sheets inside of the stays when using the storm jib?

Thanks

Chip

1979 Mac Venture 25 "Chinook"


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

chipdance said:


> I'm still very new to sailing, my first sail was on my first boat (1979 MacGregor Venture 25) which I bought about 4 weeks ago. On my boat there are some rope locks (the pinch kind, not cleats, proper name?) located to the outside and back of the cabin.


I think you're referring to clutches. Do they look kind of like something on this page?

Can't answer any of your other questions, as I've no idea what a MacGregor 25 even looks like.

Jim


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

SemiJim-

I think he's talking about either cam cleats or clam cleats, depending on whether the pinch is cause by pulling the rope into the slot or the cams "pinching" the rope.

Cam Cleat:








Clam Cleat:


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## eMKay (Aug 18, 2007)

On my boat, jib inside, genoa outside.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Sheeting inside or outside usually depends on the location of the jib/genoa tracks, the deck plan, and the sail itself.

The OP's picture looks like a situation that, with added tracks inboard, the working jib could possibly be sheeted inside. Any overlapping sail, of course, goes outside.

Chipdance: From your description it sounds like you are missing a step. The sheet should not go directly to your clutches/cleats, but through at least a padeye or a block on the cabin top or deck first.

From the pics in this link:
Gallery :: Venture 25
It looks like there's a short track and block on the coaming leading to a winch, and any cabintop cleats/clutches look to be for halyards run aft.

Though the boat is apart, these pictures may be helpful to you.


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## Cope44 (Sep 11, 2008)

Giu ,Thanks for the complement on my avatar. It makes me smile to think of someone like you (Sailnet guru, master cruiser, and bad a$$ boat owner) with little money and "just starting out". You truly are an inspiration to a novice sailor, in a little old boat, on a lake.  

Jib track?









This is looking down the rail. The chain plate is kinda hidden by the glare off the truck windshield. When I look at it from this angle it seems the line might run from the jib track around the stay and then to the sail. (causing excess friction)









How dangerous would it be to step the mast and hoist the jib while on the trailer? If I don't belay the jib sheet it should be fine right?

what about using a "pennant" to raise the jib over the bow rail? How can I combat the pennant moving the jib to far back towards the mast?

Pennant pick









As always thanks for everyones time and advice.

Cope


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## chipdance (Sep 21, 2008)

Thanks Faster & Dog. The "locks" I was referring to are the cam cleats. My boat is slightly different (newer version?) then the Venture 25 in the pictures you linked. On the cabin I do have some fixed blocks and padeyes with tracks. but also three cam cleats, one labeled "jib sheet". so it seems the jib setup was intended to run the jib sheets inside the the stays. To the side of the cabin and further aft, I also have a pad eye with track, then the winch and much further back a cleat but that is in an awkward position, so it seems I need something like a clam cleat just aft of the winch. That setup seems to indicate an outside run for genoa.

Thanks for the help, I'll try running with this setup next time I'm out.

Chip


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Cope44 said:


> Giu ,Thanks for the complement on my avatar. It makes me smile to think of someone like you (Sailnet guru, master cruiser, and bad a$$ boat owner) with little money and "just starting out". You truly are an inspiration to a novice sailor, in a little old boat, on a lake.
> 
> This is looking down the rail. The chain plate is kinda hidden by the glare off the truck windshield. When I look at it from this angle it seems the line might run from the jib track around the stay and then to the sail. (causing excess friction)
> 
> ...


Cope, first of all I am not a guru, except, maybe, in what I do for a living, most certainly not in sailing, second, I am not a cruiser either..I cruise a few months in the summer that's all..but I do have a bad a** boat..that you got right. 

Look, that is indeed a genoa/jib track.

It's like this. One a calm day, it's OK to hoist the genoa or jib to test it in the trailer. Make sure there is no wind, but if there is wind don't sheet the sail in.

Now...hoist the genoa, and pass it thru both sides of the shrouds to try it out, and see where it passes better. Try it.

Try to find out what is the J of your boat. (That is the distance from the mast to the bow. Then measure your sail from the tack to the clew. )

Calculate how much percent your sail is bigger than the J.

Your sail will be 110% or 115%, or 120, all the way up to 150%. So now that you know the size, come back here..we'll figure it out.

If the sail passes the shrouds by at least a foot or more, then your sail is meant to be passed on the outside.

If it only passes by less than a foot or so, it's meant to pass inside the shrouds.

You can add a penant to the tack of the sail, as long as, by doing so you don't max out the halyard on the mast, up high.

As far as having trhe sheets pulling the sail back, add halyard tension.

Helped?


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## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

Cope44 said:


> Giu ,Thanks for the complement on my avatar. It makes me smile to think of someone like you (Sailnet guru, master cruiser, and bad a$$ boat owner) with little money and "just starting out". You truly are an inspiration to a novice sailor, in a little old boat, on a lake.


OH PLEASE....Now not only does he profess to have the memory of an elephant you've given him the head to match..


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Stillraining said:


> OH PLEASE....Now not only does he profess to have the memory of an elephant you've given him the head to match..


Still, you're confused..the part of the elephant I have is another one, and it's not the trump....


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## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

Cope..And now I'm just as guilty as you adding to his poor delusional mind...

As the good book says we do reap what we sew..were just going to have to tought it out now..


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Those little brown blocks look like Gibbs from England...funky little fibreglass things that can't be destroyed*

_*I have tried._


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Valiente said:


> fibreglass things that can't be destroyed


Actually they are not...they are made of, thermosetting phenol formaldehyde resin, polyoxybenzylmethylenglycolanhydride , but you as a friend can call it BAKELITE!!!!

Yep..another American invention...but fibergalss it is not...

Engineer..you know...

Bakelite Corp. was formed in 1922 from the consolidation of three companies. General Bakelite Co., Condensite Corp. and Redmanol Chemical Products Company, an early plastics manufacturer formed in 1913 by Chemist L.H.Baekeland. The American Catalin Corporation acquired the Bakelite formulas in 1927 and currently manufactures Bakelite cast resins.

Bakelite Limited was formed in 1926 from the amalgamation of three suppliers of phenol formaldehyde materials: the Damard Lacquer Company Limited of Birmingham; Mouldensite Limited of Darley Dale and Redmanol Chemical Products Company of London. Around 1928 a new factory opened in Tyseley, Birmingham, England. (The building was demolished in 1998.) The company was acquired by the Union Carbide and Carbon Corporation in 1939.

Phenolics are seldom used in general consumer products today due to the cost and complexity of production and their brittle nature. An exception to the overall decline is the use in small precision-shaped components where their specific properties are required, such as moulded disc brake cylinders, saucepan handles, electrical plugs and switches and electrical iron parts. Today, Bakelite is manufactured and produced in the form of sheets, rods and tubes for hundreds of industrial applications in the electronics, power generation and aerospace industries, and under a variety of commercial brand names, including Garolite.

I'm not that smart...I knew they were bakelite, so I wikipedia Bakelite!!


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## parttimesailor (Sep 18, 2006)

Giulietta said:


> Still, you're confused..the part of the elephant I have is another one, and it's not the trump....


You have really big feet??


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

No, I believe that it is that cute little tail that pachyderms have that Gui is beating around the bush with!
Seriously though, Alex is a great asset here however big or small his body parts or ego are. You know how engineers are...
Two Engineers agree to paint a flag pole. Of course they need to know how tall it is so they can purchase the paint. One shimmies up the pole with a tape measure and falls after reaching about half way. While trying to figure out how they can possibly measure the pole along comes a Designer. After asking what they're doing he replies, "that s easy". He then reaches around the pole and pulls it out of the ground and lays it down. "There you go", he said as he walked away. The two Engineers look at each other and one said "that stupid guy will never get anywhere, we don't need to know how wide it is, just how tall"... 

A comment on the topic of the OP:
My Lightning 19' sailing dinghy is set up for racing and has two ways to set up the jib. There are adjustable tracks for running the sheets INSIDE the shrouds for close haul 'tacking' AND there are 'guy hooks' with jamb cleats mounted on deck just aft the stays for alternatively running the sheets OUTSIDE the shrouds when on a broad reach or sailing downwind. This set up allows the jib to perform optimally both upwind and downwind.


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

Giulietta said:


> Edit...HERE YOU GO ...go buy a few feet of this and tell everyone uncle Giu sent you....


At first, I was ready to run out and buy these; but then I started thinking about corrosion. Don't these snap on tubes fit close to the shrouds? Won't that hold salt water in close to the wire? Even fresh water trapped can cause crevise corrosion.
I think I'll buy 1" PVC tube


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

xort said:


> At first, I was ready to run out and buy these; but then I started thinking about corrosion. Don't these snap on tubes fit close to the shrouds? Won't that hold salt water in close to the wire? Even fresh water trapped can cause crevise corrosion.
> I think I'll buy 1" PVC tube


Jaysus Xort...please stop being so "American"..the World is not imploding if you do..I've used them for ages...and am still here....you are being too SD now....

If it makes you happy, you can remove them for cleaning in 5 seconds, and put them again in less than 10.....geee. Clean them every 3 months...

Sometimes you guys are so picky it annoys....stop reading stuff man....geee

Yes..use PVC tube until someone finds out it prevents the Raray bird from Swazilandia from mating...then writes a 1003 page book on it, SD reads it..and no one else in the Worls will use PVC tube...

I quit


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

We NEED to stop the Raray bird, it's eating the PVC and pretty soon we'll have a worldwide shortage of PVC.

If the PVC does the same job as the snap on thingies then that seems to be an easier solution. But it is a bit thicker and that might slow me down so maybe I should reconsider. What, oh what, should I do?  

SD, where are you? please help!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Giulietta said:


> Still, you're confused..the part of the elephant I have is another one, and it's not the trump....


Alex, you worry too much. No one stares at the big ears.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I'm on GUI's side this time... Use the snap on stuff..  Personally, I don't use them, but use a short piece of PVC coupler, just so the sheets don't get snagged on the shroud toggles...which was a major PITA.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Bakelite, eh? I should have known from the weight...Anyway, they look primitive, but I still have a couple on board the old boat if I need to run a tack downhaul or something.


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## Cope44 (Sep 11, 2008)

*"J" Value*

I just measured the J value, from the front of the mast steep to the tip of the bow is a whooping nine feet! I know, I know most of you have little experience on a boat as fine and large as this!

The jib measures in at a massive nine feet nine inches. So I'm thinking it should run inside the stays?

I think I'm safe using PVC as I never see a "Rayray" bird? I googled it and this was all I could find?









I think the Rayray bird and parasites it hosts (Morpions) are an upper class epidemic? Or may hap it's just to cold here? (The wiki info on Rayrays and morpions says they like warm climates and crappy boats, So I'm in the clear)

Thanks for the laughs and info.

Cope

Wiki first aid for ridding your self of Morpions.

Steep one, Shave a one inch square area of short and curlys.

Steep two, cover affected area in gasoline. (petrol for you non USA guys)

Steep three, Locate one BBQ fork (The two prong type are best)

Steep four, light Gas (petrol) with match.

Steep five, Stab Morpions with BBQ fork when they run to the one by one inch clearing.

Good luck!
Cope.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

OK guys, for a straight answer, I sailed a MacGregor Venture for several years after my daysailer and before I got a real boat. I always ran the jib sheets from the lower back corner of the jib (Yes, I know what to call it, does the novice sailor know?) to the turning blocks on the track outside of the stays, thence to the winches, then to a cam cleat on the cockpit coaming. If one runs the sheets inside the shrouds, you cannot let your sail out beyond the shrouds when running downwind! If I had to guess at the cam cleat labelled "jib sheet" on top of the cabin, I would look for a turning block at the base of the mast and decide the PO had no idea what a sheet is, and he really meant "Jib Halyard." Top of the cabin is a good place to cleat you halyards so you don't have to go forward to raise sails, and the sails on a Venture are small enough you don't really need a winch to raise them!


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## Cope44 (Sep 11, 2008)

Do I get any points if my final answer is "Clew"


My boat is not a venture and I cleat my jib and main halyards to the mast? 

The fact of not being able to let the sail out is a valid one, I would like to just test it for my self, my mast is down it's a pain to steep by my self....

Thanks again.

Cope


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