# Sailing La Vegabond



## Barquito

I see our YouTube friends have a noteworthy passenger for a late season trip across the pond:

https://www.npr.org/2019/11/13/7788...-sail-for-home-and-the-u-n-climate-conference

(I think there is an 'e' at the end of Vegabond)


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## bigdogandy

I hope that they have a safe trip!


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## RegisteredUser

Promotion never sleeps...


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## paulk

I think there’s an a in Vagabonde too. That’s how it’s spelled on their sail cover in any case.


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## Minnesail

Do we know their route? Isn't this a pretty sketch time of year to make that crossing?


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## RegisteredUser

The End...does not really matter
Its the show..before the end


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## bigdogandy

Don't know the route but can track their progress here:

https://forecast.predictwind.com/tracking/display/SailingLaVagabonde


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## capta

Are the You-Tubers mostly fair weather sailors or are they really capable of a wintertime crossing of the North Atlantic? It's certainly not a voyage I'd undertake lightly. The the Gulfstream in the roaring 40s in the dead of winter????


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## SanderO

Hmmmm I dunno about this crew, vessel and crossing from that location at this time of year. This could be interesting. It's not the "green" boat she came across on. hmmmmmm


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## Ninefingers

capta said:


> Are the You-Tubers mostly fair weather sailors or are they really capable of a wintertime crossing of the North Atlantic? It's certainly not a voyage I'd undertake lightly. The the Gulfstream in the roaring 40s in the dead of winter????


They've wrangled themselves a world class ocean sailor for the trip, so they're more crew at this point maybe.


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## paulk

capta said:


> Are the You-Tubers mostly fair weather sailors or are they really capable of a wintertime crossing of the North Atlantic? It's certainly not a voyage I'd undertake lightly. The the Gulfstream in the roaring 40s in the dead of winter????


Their YouTube homepage says:

We are an Australian couple with the dream of circumnavigating the globe by sail boat&#8230; initially having no clue of how to sail. We have now sailed over 60,000nm each across many oceans. Through our videos we hope to inspire others to explore alternative options of living and to spread ocean awareness. With YOUR support we can keep these movies coming every Monday/Tuesday (depending on your timezone)

They have 1.18 MILLION subscribers. Their web page https://sailing-lavagabonde.com now shows more then 90,000 miles sailed since 2014. It also shows the track for their current voyage. At this point it would appear that they know what they're doing. Winter doesn't actually start until 21 DEC. It should not take them that long to get to Spain. The Brest Atlantique multihulls went a good bit farther - from France to Brazil - in about a week.


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## SanderO

I don't watch or support them financially, but many do because they like the vids. No one is being harmed so who really cares? As long as they are respectful, leave a clean wake and maybe inspire others to experience the sea first hand... there is nothing to criticize. They were very clever in monetizing what they were doing... but clearly not every sailor could pull it off.


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## capta

paulk said:


> Their YouTube homepage says:
> 
> We are an Australian couple with the dream of circumnavigating the globe by sail boat&#8230; initially having no clue of how to sail. We have now sailed over 60,000nm each across many oceans. Through our videos we hope to inspire others to explore alternative options of living and to spread ocean awareness. With YOUR support we can keep these movies coming every Monday/Tuesday (depending on your timezone)
> 
> They have 1.18 MILLION subscribers. Their web page https://sailing-lavagabonde.com now shows more then 90,000 miles sailed since 2014. It also shows the track for their current voyage. At this point it would appear that they know what they're doing. Winter doesn't actually start until 21 DEC. It should not take them that long to get to Spain. The Brest Atlantique multihulls went a good bit farther - from France to Brazil - in about a week.


Number one, any ferry driver can rack up thousands of miles each year and never leave the harbor, as can fair weather sailors, with nary a puff of wind over 25 knots, so "miles" don't impress me much.
Next, their boat is hardly an ocean racing foiling multihull, but rather a big waterborne floating hotel room with huge windows and I'm pretty sure not set up for sailing consistently in winds over 50 knots and certainly is *not  going to be flying along at 25 knots plus and probably nowhere near their expected 7.5 knots much of the time.
As this is supposed to be a voyage w/o the use of polluting fuels, how are they expecting to keep all their fancy equipment going without operating a genset? On the same note, what happens when they hit the common easterlies if they do take such a southerly course? Fall off and spend days going the wrong way, south or worse north, or crank up their engines?
No, their best shot at a quick passage under sail is by the traditional northerly route and as I said, even with a lifetime as a professional seafarer that is not a voyage I'd contemplate lightly, and certainly not without 3/4" storm boards over every window.*


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## Minnesail

According to their track they are making 6 knots beating into 7 knots of wind. Course 174º into wind of 122º.

I'm sure the wind speed and direction is very approximate.


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## smj

capta said:


> Number one, any ferry driver can rack up thousands of miles each year and never leave the harbor, as can fair weather sailors, with nary a puff of wind over 25 knots, so "miles" don't impress me much.
> Next, their boat is hardly an ocean racing foiling multihull, but rather a big waterborne floating hotel room with huge windows and I'm pretty sure not set up for sailing consistently in winds over 50 knots and certainly is *not  going to be flying along at 25 knots plus and probably nowhere near their expected 7.5 knots much of the time.
> As this is supposed to be a voyage w/o the use of polluting fuels, how are they expecting to keep all their fancy equipment going without operating a genset? On the same note, what happens when they hit the common easterlies if they do take such a southerly course? Fall off and spend days going the wrong way, south or worse north, or crank up their engines?
> No, their best shot at a quick passage under sail is by the traditional northerly route and as I said, even with a lifetime as a professional seafarer that is not a voyage I'd contemplate lightly, and certainly not without 3/4" storm boards over every window.*


*

There catamaran is nowhere near your description. The Outremers are solid performance cruisers with great safety records. They have narrow hulls which give them good performance but they don't have the space of the more common " floating hotel room" cat. I would expect a pretty easy 7-8 knot average.
The owners are well known for their non polluting attitude and I'm sure they have plenty of solar to handle the loads.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk*


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## mbianka

I'm curious to see long how Riley will be able to put up with Greta the environmental drama queen for the entire voyage.  He has enough to deal with moody Elyna.


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## MSWhite

*Re: Sailing La Vagabonde*

I have no quarrel with them and the transportation of Greta. However, they also have their one year old, Lenny, with them. Ouch.

They did clock 22 knots on this Outremer when in the Med a year or so ago, but it was nothing like what they may experience on this trip.


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## midwesterner

capta said:


> Number one, any ferry driver can rack up thousands of miles each year and never leave the harbor, as can fair weather sailors, with nary a puff of wind over 25 knots, so "miles" don't impress me much.
> Next, their boat is hardly an ocean racing foiling multihull, but rather a big waterborne floating hotel room with huge windows and I'm pretty sure not set up for sailing consistently in winds over 50 knots and certainly is *not  going to be flying along at 25 knots plus and probably nowhere near their expected 7.5 knots much of the time.
> As this is supposed to be a voyage w/o the use of polluting fuels, how are they expecting to keep all their fancy equipment going without operating a genset? On the same note, what happens when they hit the common easterlies if they do take such a southerly course? Fall off and spend days going the wrong way, south or worse north, or crank up their engines?
> No, their best shot at a quick passage under sail is by the traditional northerly route and as I said, even with a lifetime as a professional seafarer that is not a voyage I'd contemplate lightly, and certainly not without 3/4" storm boards over every window.*


*

You clearly haven't seen their early videos. Riley was sailing solo, on an 80's Beneteau mono-hull he bought and fixed up. He admits that he didn't know fully, what he was doing, at first. He crossed the Atlantic a couple of times with that boat. He also has sailed in some extreme weather. On more than one occasion, he has cautioned viewers, to understand that most of their videos are shot during fair weather sailing, because, during storm sailing, they are usually too busy sailing, to do a video. He has stated this disclaimer several times. In one video, he made a point of setting up a couple of GoPros to capture some extreme sailing, to show some of what they hadn't shown enough of before.

In one video, he sailed single-handed from some island country, back to meet Elyna in Australia, and sailed through a storm. He described it in the end of the video, and apologized for not having video of it, explaining that he was busy at the helm, and managing the reefing of the sails, and couldn't worry about filming. But he included his description, because he didn't want non-sailors and novices to get the false impression that the cruising life is always the "smooth sailing" that their videos have made it seem.

When they got the Outremere catamaran, they were given some additional training in sailing the catamaran and motoring with a multi-engine boat.*


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## mbianka

*Re: Sailing La Vagabonde*



MSWhite said:


> I have no quarrel with them and the transportation of Greta. However, they also have their one year old, Lenny, with them. Ouch.
> 
> They did clock 22 knots on this Outremer when in the Med a year or so ago, but it was nothing like what they may experience on this trip.


Maybe they are planing to use Greta as an Au Pair for the trip. So they can finally have some couple time together  Then as the Wynns pointed out on their Pacific Passage it's not always serene as 
people think even in good conditions. Cats can be pretty noisy in the cockpit when moving along. Also it's a beamy platform. Hope no one gets hurt after being tossed about. It's not going to like a cruise in the Bahamas.


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## MarkofSeaLife

Well, I shall say nothing as Riley and Elayna are friends of mine and Riley is a member of Sailnet.

I have messaged Elayna and they are both clear on my thoughts and my message of 'good luck'.

Now that I have finished commenting on this thread, I shall change the subject completely.

Have I ever told you of my 1 (one) rule of cruising?

No?

My 1 (ONE) rule of cruising is ONLY EVER SAIL IN THE RIGHT SEASON.

My other rule of cruising, lets call it Rule 1A, is NEVER LET SOMEONE ELSE INFLUENCE THE TIMING OR THE ROUTE.

If anyone neglects either or both of these rules (of mine) (and Jimmy Cornells) (and Lin and Larry Pardy) (and about every other sailor who has put pen to paper) then I reserve the right to call them out.

I am sure they will come through this passage safely. However I expect them to be a tad reflective on their arrival. Taking this risk with a 1 year child on board is cause to be most reflective. And suddenly having to be responsible for a teenager and parents who are just a political agenda and the boat and owners just a *.* in the program, well....

Mark


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## caberg

Given their current track,

https://forecast.predictwind.com/tracking/display/SailingLaVagabonde

hopefully they get out of the way of this:

https://www.charlottestories.com/ma...life-threatening-flooding-to-nc-this-weekend/


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## Minnesail

Perhaps they saw the same thing.

Looking at their track it looks like they turned the engines on a little bit ago, and are now motoring almost due east directly into the wind.


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## Ninefingers

Minnesail said:


> Perhaps they saw the same thing.
> 
> Looking at their track it looks like they turned the engines on a little bit ago, and are now motoring almost due east directly into the wind.


I think they are still under sail, 4.6 knts isn't much a of a motor speed for that boat. Who knows what the wind is actually like where they are.


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## capta

Minnesail said:


> Perhaps they saw the same thing.
> 
> Looking at their track it looks like they turned the engines on a little bit ago, and are now motoring almost due east directly into the wind.


What?:eek


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## SanderO

Looks like a bumpy ride. hmmmm I question the wisdom to undertake this passage at this time.


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## Minnesail

Ninefingers said:


> I think they are still under sail, 4.6 knts isn't much a of a motor speed for that boat. Who knows what the wind is actually like where they are.


Very good point, I'm sure whatever PredictWind is showing out there is approximate at best.

It was their sudden change in course that made me think they motored up. A very noticable change, but not large enough to be a tack. Unless the wind made a sudden change, which is very possible.


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## MarkofSeaLife

That storm looks close in and still a day or so off. So motoring due east is probably best.
Obviously not good to burn fuel so early in a passage but c'est la vie.
Then the next one is Wednesday and Thursday... its just a never ending procession this time of year.


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## mbianka

Minnesail said:


> Perhaps they saw the same thing.
> 
> Looking at their track it looks like they turned the engines on a little bit ago, and are now motoring almost due east directly into the wind.


Not going to be fun pounding into head seas on their Cat with the storm low sucking in all that wind to the west. On the catamarans we chartered I was always watching the main cabin table shake each time a wave hit the bridge deck with a loud boom and glad it was not my boat. Add to that having passengers and a baby on board and it could be a pretty stressful situation for Riley. As I recall the helm position is pretty much in the open too.


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## smj

mbianka said:


> Not going to be fun pounding into head seas on their Cat with the storm low sucking in all that wind to the west. On the catamarans we chartered I was always watching the main cabin table shake each time a wave hit the bridge deck with a loud boom and glad it was not my boat. Add to that having passengers and a baby on board and it could be a pretty stressful situation for Riley. As I recall the helm position is pretty much in the open too.


They don't own a charter cat, completely different animal.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## mbianka

smj said:


> They don't own a charter cat, completely different animal.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Oh? Isn't a catamaran is a design and as such could be put into a charter operation or not. LaVagabonde is still a production boat not a custom designed foil racing cat. Sailing characteristics of boats like Vagabonde will similar as a design class. No?


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## Minnesail

Fountaine Pajot Lucia 40 (typical charter boat):
19,700 lbs
SA/D: 13.8
D/L: 154


Outremer 45 (La Vagabonde):
13,448 lbs
SA/D: 33.6
D/L: 67.6



I dunno about the bridgedeck clearance. I'm sure that makes a large difference.


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## smj

Minnesail said:


> Fountaine Pajot Lucia 40 (typical charter boat):
> 
> 19,700 lbs
> 
> SA/D: 13.8
> 
> D/L: 154
> 
> Outremer 45 (La Vagabonde):
> 
> 13,448 lbs
> 
> SA/D: 33.6
> 
> D/L: 67.6
> 
> I dunno about the bridgedeck clearance. I'm sure that makes a large difference.


And the Outremer 45 is actually 48' long. Compare that to a charter Leopard 48 at 32,000 lbs and the fact the Outremer probably has a higher bridgedeck clearance means it will ride on top of the water rather than through the waves. Two different boats with two different intents.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Sailorsone

paulk said:


> Their YouTube homepage says:
> 
> We are an Australian couple with the dream of circumnavigating the globe by sail boat&#8230; initially having no clue of how to sail. We have now sailed over 60,000nm each across many oceans. Through our videos we hope to inspire others to explore alternative options of living and to spread ocean awareness. With YOUR support we can keep these movies coming every Monday/Tuesday (depending on your timezone)
> 
> They have 1.18 MILLION subscribers. Their web page now shows more then 90,000 miles sailed since 2014. It also shows the track for their current voyage. At this point it would appear that they know what they're doing. Winter doesn't actually start until 21 DEC. It should not take them that long to get to Spain. The Brest Atlantique multihulls went a good bit farther - from France to Brazil - in about a week.


How have they sailed 90,000 miles? That's almost three times around the world. With the track I have seen, they sailed a boat in the Mediterranean and sailed to the South Pacific and now Mediterranean and Caribbean. Around 30,000 miles and not 90,000 as listed in the news.


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## MarkofSeaLife

Dunno.

Where they are right now plugging up hill under motor escaping a developing gale up my butt I'd want the fastest boat for that motoring.
, and then I'd want the heaviest boat for the next 2,000nms. 

The last 500 miles from Azores to Gibraltar can be in anything but those first few weeks with 2 gales per week coming off Hatteras... Yikes, you can flick that one right off. 

I did Caribbean to UK in June 2 years ago. And when I finished it I spoke to a mate who had his 42 foot boat shipped from Caribbean to UK for US$9,000... At that price any person is a fool to sail that passage... And that's in June, the best month for it.
The North Atlantic is a tricky puddle. Outremer, Lagoon or Queen Mary.


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## midwesterner

Sailorsone said:


> How have they sailed 90,000 miles? That's almost three times around the world. With the track I have seen, they sailed a boat in the Mediterranean and sailed to the South Pacific and now Mediterranean and Caribbean. Around 30,000 miles and not 90,000 as listed in the news.


They sailed the Beneteau for years and have made at least three Atlantic crossings. I think they've been sailing for 6 or 8 years.


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## Sailorsone

midwesterner said:


> They sailed the Beneteau for years and have made at least three Atlantic crossings. I think they've been sailing for 6 or 8 years.


They started in 2014. The Beneteau was in the med, once across the Atlantic to the Caribbean and then on to the South Pacific. The cat has been across the Atlantic once. All total, they aren't at a third of what is claimed in that quote.

The true mileage is impressive enough for a resume, so why telling fish stories? It's an ugly look


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## midwesterner

Sailorsone said:


> They started in 2014. The Beneteau was in the med, once across the Atlantic to the Caribbean and then on to the South Pacific. The cat has been across the Atlantic once. All total, they aren't at a third of what is claimed in that quote.
> 
> The true mileage is impressive enough for a resume, so why telling fish stories? It's an ugly look


So, four years. I watched most of their Beneteau era videos from the first one. I know they spent time sailing around a lot of Island countries. They have always seemed like pretty sincere young couple to me. Like you say, they would have no reason to pad their sailing resume. I wouldn't be too quick to believe that they have perpetrated some fraud against you.


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## SanderO

midwesterner said:


> So, four years. I watched most of their Beneteau era videos from the first one. I know they spent time sailing around a lot of Island countries. They have always seemed like pretty sincere young couple to me. Like you say, they would have no reason to pad their sailing resume. I wouldn't be too quick to believe that they have perpetrated some fraud against you.


It's not a fraud... it's marketing.


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## MarkofSeaLife

I don't see why they are going south.
They are working their way into this weekends storm. Going due east could make them miss the storm entirely if passageweatger is correct. Further south and they hit the headwinds under the Azores High. And no matter what team you bat for, cats don't like headwinds for 2,000 miles.
It's tricky nav for this one. 
Further, à weather router will not be the Magic Butterfly as most will not be experienced in small sailing boats in November. 
It does look like the Azores High pushes all the bad weather above it. That's fine. But headwinds...


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## SanderO

Dumb Questions for the peanut gallery...

Why are they making this passage? Was it planned before Greta need a ride back to Europe? Most boats on the East Coast head to the Caribbean at this time of year and to Europe on the Summer? Seems like there was no urgency to make this crossing now and it would have been more pleasant and safer had they waited out the winter before shoving off.

(These questions may be answered on the YT channel or website neither of which I follow.)

Any thoughts?


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## Minnewaska

MarkofSeaLife said:


> .....Further, à weather router will not be the Magic Butterfly as most will not be experienced in small sailing boats in November.......


Do they use a weather router? I don't watch much of their material, but don't recall hearing of one.

As for other early thoughts on slow motoring, that's pretty common on a long passage one can't actually motor across. It conserves fuel, disproportionately higher than the reduction in speed. Said differently, the slower you go, the more fuel efficient in miles per gallon/liter of fuel.

Crossing the North Atlantic in November, with a toddler, is reason to question their judgement. Ultimately, my position is they get to make the final call, they are the parents. However, I've seen some footage of them underway, with Elyna and the baby on the trampoline, with no pfds. In our Nanny State, that would get the kid taken away from them. Complacency kills.


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## SanderO

They likely have enough room to carry plenty of extra fuel in jerry cans. And it would be prudent for them to carry fuel for motoring more than 1,000 miles or similar.

Nothing I have read here inspires confidence in my that Riley is acting prudently as he should. Until I learn something to the contrary... I will not support this passage and recommend that they discontinue and wait for a weather window.


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## RegisteredUser

MarkofSeaLife said:


> I don't see why they are going south.
> They are working their way into this weekends storm. Going due east could make them miss the storm entirely if passageweatger is correct. Further south and they hit the headwinds under the Azores High. And no matter what team you bat for, cats don't like headwinds for 2,000 miles.
> It's tricky nav for this one.
> Further, à weather router will not be the Magic Butterfly as most will not be experienced in small sailing boats in November.
> It does look like the Azores High pushes all the bad weather above it. That's fine. But headwinds...


I dont think they had much of a choice with E winds
That will change to S winds and prob take them under bermuda all the way to the azores hi.
Then either over the hi..or thru it.
E of azores looks like it could be very nasty


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## mbianka

SanderO said:


> They likely have enough room to carry plenty of extra fuel in jerry cans. And it would be prudent for them to carry fuel for motoring more than 1,000 miles or similar.
> 
> Nothing I have read here inspires confidence in my that Riley is acting prudently as he should. Until I learn something to the contrary... I will not support this passage and recommend that they discontinue and wait for a weather window.


Maybe they are heading to Bermuda first so burning fuel at this point is not to much of an issue. Though I have not heard exactly what their planed passage is other bringing Greta back to Europe.


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## MarkofSeaLife

I think its pretty clear its to take Greta back to Europe. It has the feel of a quick decision, but Im no mind reader so how would anyone know? But I think I recall reading an article (or maybe just a headline as I don't read articles about her) only a few weeks ago that she (ie her parents) were looking for a (free?) way to get back home.

Of the many things I don't know, so I am just generalising the comments to anyone, is if Riley and Elayna have done much in the way of cold weather sailing? Hasn't all their stuff been tropical downwind passages? As I look out the window of my boat in London... I can tell you that its cold, windy and wet and Im really not qualified to sail today. But virtually every day of the last month has been either cold, wet or windy, or all 3. Each week a gale/storm or crappy weather. I know London is a lot further north than Hatteras... but Cape Hatteras has a reputation for a reason. and that line Cape Hatteras - Bermuda - Azores - Spain/Gib is a line that storms start Great Lakes to the Caribbean and hit Hatteras and then turn on that line to the Azores.
Yes, they will probably be fine, a tad cold but thats just a bit of experience, go put on more clothes and hunker down. However the risk percentage is much higher than the 'proper' months to sail.

Now, a word about persuasion.... and this is not meant to be a politically loaded statement whatever... (these, again, are general comments)
We all know not to be locked into time frames imposed by friends and relatives, but sometimes we do get persuaded. Why? Because Great Aunt Betsy has a persuasive personality. (I have a mate who is an ex-police murder detective... he can fry my brain in 5 seconds)
I get the feeling that Greta's parents are very persuasive people and have taught the child persuasion. Otherwise how could she scream at elected politicians and gain some worldwide attention? 
So I think its vital we guard ourselves in the future for people who might use some weird trick to persuade us to lock ourselves into their route or timing.

Again, I think back to those records to be the youngest to fly a plane across the usa, or sail solo around the world... Young male pilots would get younger and younger each year until girls took over and kept pushing the records younger and younger... In flying until a 6 year old "pilot" wearing a "Women Fly" hat crashed by taking off into a storm to make a media appointment.
Her death didnt stop the insanity. It only stopped when everyone refused award a record.

So it switched to sailing.... Until a little girl who was asleep when a ship crashed into her because she didnt put her AIS on... nearly died... and finally whoever records these 'records' told the world the would take no more records.

Now the world seems to be locked into the "Around the World without Flying" Google it! https://www.bing.com/search?q=Around+the+World+without+Flying&form=OPRTSD&pc=OPER
Now the age is going down and down... so this week a 16 year old, next week, 14, week after a 4 year old politically savvy round-the-worlder-without-flying....

So, we need to be aware of persuasion in all its forms and ensure our decisions are *our* decisions and no one elses.

Mark


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## mbianka

They are about 380 miles from Bermuda doing 6 knots. I'm looking at the Windy.com and it looks like tomorrow (Saturday) they will be in 30 to 40 knots as the low developing off of Georgia/South Carolina begins to move northeast. After they get through that it looks like they will have 20 to 30 knots on the nose if they are heading to Bermuda. Anyone else seeing this scenario?


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## RegisteredUser

My blind eyes see tomorrow turrning SE and then S winds.
They can make fast tracks east on the beam


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## RegisteredUser

A guess is that riley will decide whether or not he wants to run double digits into 1/4ing sea..or knot...


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## midwesterner

In a CNN interview, Riley, the skipper of La Vagabonde, said, _"It is a bit of a mission and we do have Lenny," Whitelum said. "Heading across at this time of year is not something you take lightly so there was always going to be a lot of preparation and a lot of big decisions to be made, but we were very happy to certainly entertain the idea."
The couple say they're working with weather routers to help keep them on course and feel confident ahead of the journey, whose endpoint isn't yet decided. "We're actually not too sure just yet," said Carausu. "It'll be either Portugal, Spain or France."_

Elyna said, _"We're just so lucky that we can take our jobs around the world and it is our home," she added. "Wherever the boat is we are, and we're home."_

It sounds like they are proceeding with caution.


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## MacBlaze

It bugs me when I read threads like this with all the speculation that accompanies it and no one includes all the salient facts.

Nikki Henderson.

https://www.sail-world.com/news/215197/Youngest-Clipper-Race-skipper-wins-Yachting-Award
[URL="[/URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikki_Henderson"]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikki_Henderson[/URL]

I am not a huge Riley fan, but can you really argue with Nikki's credentials? (apparently some can...on another thread on another site someone made a sarcastic comment about not having multi-million dollar shore support this time...sheesh.) Any hoo, afaik know they do have professional weather routers for the trip, in addition to an experienced round-the-world racer and all the resources she can bring to bear... Hopefully its not too rough a trip and all turns out well.


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## Ninefingers

MacBlaze said:


> It bugs me when I read threads like this with all the speculation that accompanies it and no one includes all the salient facts.
> 
> Nikki Henderson.
> 
> https://www.sail-world.com/news/215197/Youngest-Clipper-Race-skipper-wins-Yachting-Award
> [URL="[/URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikki_Henderson"]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikki_Henderson[/URL]
> 
> I am not a huge Riley fan, but can you really argue with Nikki's credentials? (apparently some can...on another thread on another site someone made a sarcastic comment about not having multi-million dollar shore support this time...sheesh.) Any hoo, afaik know they do have professional weather routers for the trip, in addition to an experienced round-the-world racer and all the resources she can bring to bear... Hopefully its not too rough a trip and all turns out well.


Yes, I posted that earlier. Perhaps no one read the post? I would gather that Nikki is making the decisions. Also, I think Greta's dad is with them. They will probably stop in Bermuda I think.


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## MacBlaze

Ninefingers said:


> Yes, I posted that earlier. Perhaps no one read the post? I would gather that Nikki is making the decisions. Also, I think Greta's dad is with them. They will probably stop in Bermuda I think.


Oops. But you forgot to say who :grin



Ninefingers said:


> They've wrangled themselves a world class ocean sailor for the trip, so they're more crew at this point maybe.


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## drew1711

MacBlaze said:


> It bugs me when I read threads like this with all the speculation that accompanies it and no one includes all the salient facts.
> 
> Nikki Henderson.


There's reference to NH up thread. I'm sort of puzzled what you mean by not including salient facts?

I don't know if it's salient or not, but I would like to point out that Joshua Slocum was lost one hundred years ago, yesterday, in the same general location as LV is right now.

I'm pretty sure he had a credential or two under his belt before he died.


----------



## MacBlaze

drew1711 said:


> There's reference to NH up thread. I'm sort of puzzled what you mean by not including salient facts?
> 
> I don't know if it's salient or not, but I would like to point out that Joshua Slocum was lost one hundred years ago, yesterday, in the same general location as LV is right now.
> 
> I'm pretty sure he had a credential or two under his belt before he died.


Never said I thought it was a safe idea :wink

I just meant there is a world of difference between two youtubers just taking off across the Atlantic on the edge of winter to satisfy some marketing agenda (although I will admit there is probably some of this) and an accomplished world class skipper agreeing that the voyage is feasible and accompanying the aforementioned youtubers. Personally I think it shifts the whole thing from a stupid stunt to an interesting adventure and possibly a priceless learning lesson-much more so than just watching the Youtube version of sailing or trying to learn something from following the Volvo or Clipper races.

I guess we will see.


----------



## Ninefingers

RegisteredUser said:


> My blind eyes see tomorrow turrning SE and then S winds.
> They can make fast tracks east on the beam


That's what it looks like to me. South a little more and then squeal the tires and book it Eastbound.


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

Goodness! A World Class Sailor!


I don't know where I stand in the sailor hierarchy.

But I am sure if I was speaking to a Worlder Class Sailor that me, ie someone, anyone, who has done more offshore ocean passage miles as on-board OWNER and Skipper than me I would tell them "you've got rocks in your head".

If they were are to show me a good route at that time that doesn't overly rise the risk of tbe 12 month old baby, them I would say, "Great. Correct my knowledge because I've never been there in November... Nor would I have ever, ever considered it."

So remember this post (if you read it at all): This world class sailor has rocks in the head if they think this passage safe enough for a 1 year old baby.


I don't mind if I am wrong.


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

Oh, and has the "World Class Sailor" gone uphill in November, cross the atlantic? 

If they haven't gone this way at this time why not? If its safe theres no reason why not.






.


----------



## MacBlaze

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Oh, and has the "World Class Sailor" gone uphill in November, cross the atlantic?
> 
> .


Well hopefully in 20 days or so the answer to this will be yes. If not, we will all look a bit pathetic. :|


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

MacBlaze said:


> Well hopefully in 20 days or so the answer to this will be yes. If not, we will all look a bit pathetic. :|


I don't think we should feel pathetic at someone elses success.


----------



## mbianka

MacBlaze said:


> I
> Any hoo, afaik know they do have professional weather routers for the trip, in addition to an experienced round-the-world racer and all the resources she can bring to bear... Hopefully its not too rough a trip and all turns out well.


Nikki Henderson on board and weather routers is a definite plus so Riley is not stuck taking on all the responsibility of the passage. He can bounce ideas off of Henderson and have her help as crew. More importantly hopefully he can get some rest. Meanwhile Elyana might have her hands full with their kid if their last video is any indication of the stress of having a toddler on board.


----------



## Ninefingers

Yes, but Mark you have always had the benefit of time and planning. These folks have turned it into a Smokey and The Bandit movie.

_East bound and down, loaded up and truckin',
We're gonna do what they say can't be done.
We've got a long way to go and a short time to get there.
I'm east bound, just watch ol' "Bandit" run.
Keep your foot hard on the pedal. Son, never mind them brakes.
Let it all hang out 'cause we got a run to make.
The boys are thirsty in Atlanta and there's beer in Texarcana.
And we'll bring it back no matter what it takes._

So given their insistance to jump into the pool of sharks, it's surely beneficial to have a racer who has been forced to do that same thing numerous times. Prudent decision would be not to go at all. But that page (#1) of the planning process appeared to get lost in the shuffle, or perhaps placed at the bottom of the paper stack. It also looks like they never going to turn on the motor, at least judging from the direction and variable boat speeds that get updated. 4 - 10 knts in various directions sort of indicates a boat under sail. Or a serious fight for the wheel.


----------



## mbianka

drew1711 said:


> There's reference to NH up thread. I'm sort of puzzled what you mean by not including salient facts?
> 
> I don't know if it's salient or not, but I would like to point out that Joshua Slocum was lost one hundred years ago, yesterday, in the same general location as LV is right now.
> 
> I'm pretty sure he had a credential or two under his belt before he died.


Remember Joshua Slocum also had a woman (wife) on board when he was lost. Riley has three! Just sayin'


----------



## RegisteredUser

Looking for max clicks, right...
Shoot the strait, land at barcelona, then lead catalan march to madrid..on ebikes
The climate bs could be a springboard to even greater things
Remember, seas will part....


----------



## drew1711

mbianka said:


> Remember Joshua Slocum also had a woman (wife) on board when he was lost. Riley has three! Just sayin'


No, Slocum did not have a woman aboard, or anyone else. He was alone.

His wife told the press she believed he was lost at sea and ultimately petitioned the courts to have him declared legally dead. That is my recollection, FWIW.


----------



## mbianka

@;


drew1711 said:


> No, Slocum did not have a woman aboard, or anyone else. He was alone.
> 
> His wife told the press she believed he was lost at sea and ultimately petitioned the courts to have him declared legally dead. That is my recollection, FWIW.


I stand corrected. Don't recall where I heard/read he and his wife set off and were never heard from again.


----------



## chef2sail

MarkofSeaLife said:


> I think its pretty clear its to take Greta back to Europe. It has the feel of a quick decision, but Im no mind reader so how would anyone know? But I think I recall reading an article (or maybe just a headline as I don't read articles about her) only a few weeks ago that she (ie her parents) were looking for a (free?) way to get back home.
> 
> Of the many things I don't know, so I am just generalising the comments to anyone, is if Riley and Elayna have done much in the way of cold weather sailing? Hasn't all their stuff been tropical downwind passages? As I look out the window of my boat in London... I can tell you that its cold, windy and wet and Im really not qualified to sail today. But virtually every day of the last month has been either cold, wet or windy, or all 3. Each week a gale/storm or crappy weather. I know London is a lot further north than Hatteras... but Cape Hatteras has a reputation for a reason. and that line Cape Hatteras - Bermuda - Azores - Spain/Gib is a line that storms start Great Lakes to the Caribbean and hit Hatteras and then turn on that line to the Azores.
> Yes, they will probably be fine, a tad cold but thats just a bit of experience, go put on more clothes and hunker down. However the risk percentage is much higher than the 'proper' months to sail.
> 
> Now, a word about persuasion.... and this is not meant to be a politically loaded statement whatever... (these, again, are general comments)
> We all know not to be locked into time frames imposed by friends and relatives, but sometimes we do get persuaded. Why? Because Great Aunt Betsy has a persuasive personality. (I have a mate who is an ex-police murder detective... he can fry my brain in 5 seconds)
> I get the feeling that Greta's parents are very persuasive people and have taught the child persuasion. Otherwise how could she scream at elected politicians and gain some worldwide attention?
> So I think its vital we guard ourselves in the future for people who might use some weird trick to persuade us to lock ourselves into their route or timing.
> 
> Again, I think back to those records to be the youngest to fly a plane across the usa, or sail solo around the world... Young male pilots would get younger and younger each year until girls took over and kept pushing the records younger and younger... In flying until a 6 year old "pilot" wearing a "Women Fly" hat crashed by taking off into a storm to make a media appointment.
> Her death didnt stop the insanity. It only stopped when everyone refused award a record.
> 
> So it switched to sailing.... Until a little girl who was asleep when a ship crashed into her because she didnt put her AIS on... nearly died... and finally whoever records these 'records' told the world the would take no more records.
> 
> Now the world seems to be locked into the "Around the World without Flying" Google it! https://www.bing.com/search?q=Around+the+World+without+Flying&form=OPRTSD&pc=OPER
> Now the age is going down and down... so this week a 16 year old, next week, 14, week after a 4 year old politically savvy round-the-worlder-without-flying....
> 
> So, we need to be aware of persuasion in all its forms and ensure our decisions are *our* decisions and no one elses.
> 
> Mark


Art of persuasion be damned . The captain has the final responsibility to be in charge of the safety. Sometimes that means being the one who says no.
We are not running the rage even though you are all sick...or no we aren't crossing the pond in November with a nor'easter developing off Hatterass.

I have crossed the Atlantic twice. Long before GPS and Satellites were used like today. First time 22 days piece of cake. Second time terrifying with 30 ft waves. I was young and dumb on a crew. Both times were in June the safest month.


----------



## TakeFive

Based on PredictWind it looks like the "ship is about to hit the fan." Will be interesting to see what it looks like tomorrow morning.

I have nothing against this young couple, but I've never been able to get into their YouTube channel. I've tried several times, and always come way feeling meh. There's just something a little too "look at me" about their attitude. And, of course, just feeling kind of sick about taking a baby out in what looks to turn into some pretty crap conditions.

I have zero experience with planning such crossings, but it sure looks a little odd to be heading so far south, only to beat against the trades toward Portugal/Spain. Are you sure they haven't decided to head for the Caribbean?


----------



## Minnewaska

Just for giggles, one has to wonder what role Outremer plays in these decisions. The deal for the brand new million dollar boat was made on assignment of their vlog revenue. I'm sure they remain in touch on plans for the vids. It was when they bought/leased the Outremer that the nature of their videos changed and I stopped watching. Prior to this, in the Pacific, it was much more of a travel vlog. It then became click bait and, as someone else said, "look at me". Well, it's clearly worked, as they have the most sailing subscribers of any sailing channel (although, revenue per subscriber is low). Great visibility for Outremer. 

I'm just guessing there were a lot of cooks in this kitchen.


----------



## hpeer

drew1711 said:


> No, Slocum did not have a woman aboard, or anyone else. He was alone.
> 
> His wife told the press she believed he was lost at sea and ultimately petitioned the courts to have him declared legally dead. That is my recollection, FWIW.


Different wife, different loss.
Same Slocum.


----------



## Sailorsone

Minnewaska said:


> Just for giggles, one has to wonder what role Outremer plays in these decisions. The deal for the brand new million dollar boat was made on assignment of their vlog revenue. I'm sure they remain in touch on plans for the vids. It was when they bought/leased the Outremer that the nature of their videos changed and I stopped watching. Prior to this, in the Pacific, it was much more of a travel vlog. It then became click bait and, as someone else said, "look at me". Well, it's clearly worked, as they have the most sailing subscribers of any sailing channel (although, revenue per subscriber is low). Great visibility for Outremer.
> 
> I'm just guessing there were a lot of cooks in this kitchen.


Outremer has a brand new larger model launching real soon. Could this "bonus" be the reason to risk it by sailing to Europe this year? The extra attention from Greta may be a factor, but I'm speculating a new boat is the real catalyst to this odd trip*.

If you've watched their growth in the past year, it's pretty apparent they have a management team now behind them. They've totally transitioned from trying to appeal to sailors to instead focus on the much, much broader reality tv market. Like any stars, i'm sure they have transitioned from just themselves trying to figure this out, to a large management team with market research coming up with ideas to appeal to this new demographic. I'm not a fan, never have been, but it's the right approach to make with the success they've had. Get it while the gettin's good!

*a November crossing is not an unheard of trip for a delivery captain or a race boat, but for a cruising family with a young kid, it doesn't make sense this time of year.


----------



## SanderO

It doesn't surprise me that the two narcissists who have successfully exploited their "charm" into gold. Outremer is also not a charity and so there's some exploitation on their part as well. So as long as no one loses and eye and the money flows... it's capitalism as work... and perhaps working well and there are no apparently losers except subscribers who likely feel that their money is not lost as the content is worth the price of admission. Fair deal.

++++

What is concerning to me is the behavior of Greta Thunberg. The vessel is by no means intended to be green... although sailing itself is green. I've read she wanted a free ride to Europe not a fossil fuel free one this time. That's kinda free loading. I doubt many random non sailor people can expect a free ocean passage from any boat sailing to Europe. All who have made ocean passages know that competent crew is sought... not passengers who can be a distraction to the critical work of ocean sailing... especially THAT passage at THIS time of year. It seems that Outremer and the SLV owners saw $$ from the publicity. So for them it's a marketing scheme pure and simple and so we see some mutual exploitation going on. Not pretty to me.

Then there's an infant. While the child was born and lived its life aboard it can only be a distraction understandably so to the sailing demands at times. Anyone who knows anything about sailing knows that this is no easy sail. It will likely be demanding and even dangerous. What sort of parents would take these sorts of risks? For publicity? 

I don't know a thing about the female "ocean racing" sailor they took as crew. At least they have one experienced crew who likely is not a catamaran sailor... correct me if I am wrong. She may have some good experience but she couldn't have a lot of it because I believe she is 25. I am not claiming she is not skilled. But skilled and heavy weather experience in a cat in the ocean are not the same thing.

This passage is usually demanding and difficult at this time of year in fair conditions. So far forecasts don't look terribly fair. Let's hope that conditions turn fair and favorable and they get across safe and sound.

This sailor is not impressed by what looks to be basically a publicity stunt. Who is advising Greta and her father?


----------



## Sal Paradise

Yesterday, from Instsagram

gretathunberg
Verified
Day 2. In the Gulf Stream. Yesterday was quite rough conditions in the shallow waters off the coast. Today much nicer. Slept really well. Great to be back on the ocean!


__
http://instagr.am/p/B42xJmNJEmu/


----------



## mbianka

As of 8 AM Saturday they are about 160 nm off of Cape Hatteras having made a turn to the northeast. So it looks like a stop in Bermuda is off the table. But, it may be difficult keeping anything on the table today on board:

"Severe
Storm Warning
From:	Saturday 16, 7:00 AM
To:	Saturday 16, 3:00 PM
Area:	Baltimore Canyon to Hatteras Canyon between 100 NM and 250 NM offshore
West central North Atlantic continental shelf and slope waters beyond 20 nm to 250 nm offshore, including south of Georges Bank from 1000 fm to 250 nm offshore. Seas given as significant wave height, which is the average height of the highest 1/3 of the waves. Individual waves may be more than twice the significant wave height. ...STORM WARNING... .TODAY...NE winds 30 to 40 kt, increasing to 35 to 50 kt. Seas 5 to 9 ft, building to 11 to 19 ft. Rain with vsby 1 nm or less. .TONIGHT...E to NE winds 40 to 50 kt. Seas 15 to 24 ft. Rain. .SUN...E to NE winds 40 to 50 kt. Seas 15 to 25 ft. Rain. .SUN NIGHT...E to NE winds 35 to 45 kt. Seas 15 to 25 ft. Scattered showers and tstms with vsby 1 nm or less. .MON...N winds 25 to 35 kt, becoming N to NW 20 to 30 kt. Seas 12 to 20 ft.


----------



## Sal Paradise

From a weather perspective, this seems ill timed. 100% agree with Mark on that point. No effing way - I would jump ship rather than go out into that, I don't care who you are. And everyone knew this was coming. But, the kid is tough and probably too young to know better so it might not affect her psychologically like it would most of us. I think she is pretty amazing , very brave and tough- too bad the adults taking her on this trip didn't know better.


----------



## mbianka

SanderO said:


> It doesn't surprise me that the two narcissists who have successfully exploited their "charm" into gold. Outremer is also not a charity and so there's some exploitation on their part as well. So as long as no one loses and eye and the money flows... it's capitalism as work... and perhaps working well and there are no apparently losers except subscribers who likely feel that their money is not lost as the content is worth the price of admission. Fair deal.
> 
> ++++
> 
> What is concerning to me is the behavior of Greta Thunberg. The vessel is by no means intended to be green... although sailing itself is green. I've read she wanted a free ride to Europe not a fossil fuel free one this time. That's kinda free loading. I doubt many random non sailor people can expect a free ocean passage from any boat sailing to Europe. All who have made ocean passages know that competent crew is sought... not passengers who can be a distraction to the critical work of ocean sailing... especially THAT passage at THIS time of year. It seems that Outremer and the SLV owners saw $$ from the publicity. So for them it's a marketing scheme pure and simple and so we see some mutual exploitation going on. Not pretty to me.
> 
> Then there's an infant. While the child was born and lived its life aboard it can only be a distraction understandably so to the sailing demands at times. Anyone who knows anything about sailing knows that this is no easy sail. It will likely be demanding and even dangerous. What sort of parents would take these sorts of risks? For publicity?
> 
> I don't know a thing about the female "ocean racing" sailor they took as crew. At least they have one experienced crew who likely is not a catamaran sailor... correct me if I am wrong. She may have some good experience but she couldn't have a lot of it because I believe she is 25. I am not claiming she is not skilled. But skilled and heavy weather experience in a cat in the ocean are not the same thing.
> 
> This passage is usually demanding and difficult at this time of year in fair conditions. So far forecasts don't look terribly fair. Let's hope that conditions turn fair and favorable and they get across safe and sound.
> 
> This sailor is not impressed by what looks to be basically a publicity stunt. Who is advising Greta and her father?


Seems like their are quite a few agendas that went into this decision as you outlined. IMO there could be some interesting dynamics on board as this trip progresses. First there is Riley and Elyna who have pretty much been sailing by them selves with their son Lenny with an occasional guest for a few days here and there. Now there are three other people in "their space".

Their son Lenny is only use to them being on board. Now has to figure out who these other people are. He's been tearing up the place now that he is moving about too.

Then there is the reaction from Greta when she finds out the Riley made his money to first buy his boat by working on Oil Rigs. That should be an interesting conversation.


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

I just did a plot and downloaded a Grib chart.
I add 5 knots to GFS when its about 20kts.

On their course of 080 the have gale force winds until late Thursday. Thats 30 knots gusting 40 knots pretty well the whole time.
Its very difficult to tell as theres bands of lighter weather all over the place and if they are lucky to 'thread the needle' they could go the whole way at 15 knots wind... But I think they will have tough conditions till Friday.
Thats fine if nothing breaks. 

For me the biggest problem is good food to keep the proper energy up... I eat huge amounts of steak and no sugar/carbs. I think this boatload of enviro's are probably vegans. Fine until you have to rely on your body! :grin

They are in a new boat with good equipment so Id think they'll be fine. Just a bit happy to see landfall in a few weeks.

If I was there I would be heading to Bermuda and chucking the passengers of a fossil fuel burning plane. And that could be on the cards as they are only 10 degrees off course to lay Bermuda.


----------



## Ninefingers

If you folks want to learn a bit more about what they are actually encountering, you can check Nikki's twitter or facebook.

_Our first family meal after an unsettled first 24 hours was a heartwarming start to day 2.

Seasickness took Greta, Elayna and Lenny out of action last night. Riley and myself spent the night making as much ground as we could. We have flown every sail on the boat already - which is a lot of work physically hoisting and dropping. We did 2 hours on 2 hours off shifts over night, and spent each watch change poring over the weather together - working out where is safest to go. We feel good about where we are going now - made a decision as a team - south - away from what looks like the strongest headwinds.

As dawn broke we sailed into the Gulf Stream. It got warmer, morale improved and the sun has shined all day. Porridge, cashew yogurt fresh berries and peanut butter - breakfast of champions! It feels like we are on a health food show ..._

From Riley:

_La Vagabonde is currently 33°11'N 72°10'W . We're safe and south of the 60 knot gusts and 6m waves according to all weather models we are running onboard. A massive thanks to PredictWind for helping us out here and our northern hemisphere man Christian Dumard. It'll be a very rough night ahead but we're looking good! #sailinglavagabonde

If you're interested in following our route, you can follow it on our website: http://www.sailing-lavagabonde.com_


----------



## MacBlaze

Some quotes from their various instagram accounts answers a few questions:



> elayna.carausu
> Day 3. Long days and long nights for this one. It's a tough life being a captain. Making all of the tough decisions, checking the weather over and over. A week ago we were cruising the Chesapeake, thinking we had a month to get down to Charleston for the winter.. and then we were running around like headless chooks trying to get our boat ready for this trip. HAHA. Life just continues to surprise us. Luckily, we love that and we can't wait to see what events the remaining weeks bring. It's the beauty of having a home and a job that moves around with you. This mission was just what we needed ??. We're headed towards Bermuda right now (but not stopping by, as much as I'd love to!). I'll let Riley give you a full weather update when he wakes up.
> 
> Ps we have the best crew!! @_nikkihenderson is an unbelievably good sailor and @gretathunberg is keeping @lenny.lavagabonde entertained for hours. Gretas dad is on coffee duty as well as cleaning and he also makes us laugh. Spirits are high onboard La Vagabonde. #sailinglavagabonde #gretathunberg





> riley.whitelum
> Verified
> La Vagabonde is currently 33°11'N 72°10'W . We're safe and south of the 60 knot gusts and 6m waves according to all weather models we are running onboard.
> 
> A massive thanks to @predict_wind for helping us out here and our northern hemisphere man Christian Dumard. It'll be a very rough night ahead but we're looking good! #sailinglavagabonde


----------



## Minnewaska

They've done this long enough to know what wind and waves are ahead. It's only a matter of whether it made sense to take them on. Hope they remain safe, especially the little one.


----------



## midwesterner

I admire Riley, and wish I had done something like he had done, as a young man. He saved up money, working on an oil rig, went to Italy, bought his Beneteau, not knowing anything about sailing. 

I don't think he's ever attended college, but he seems very intelligent and is very well-read. He realized he needed to learn how to sail his boat, if he was going to be traveling around on it, so he learned sailing and made some challenging passages. He wasn't always a luxury yacht owner. He maintained and repaired that Beneteau on his own. He taught himself diesel engine maintenance and repair, and general boat maintenance.

Then he sails into the Greek Isles and meets a lovely lady lounge singer from his home country, and falls in love. They begin to sail around, and explore the world together. 

At one point, before their YouTube and social media fame took off, they had to fly home to Australia to work for a few months to save up more money. Riley went back to work on an oil ship. 

They could have easily ended up living on land, toiling away at some job, like the rest of us, and sailing occasionally. Instead, they found a way to make money from their story, and the fact that they are both young and attractive. I say good for them.


----------



## cherylchecheryl

Minnewaska said:


> Do they use a weather router? I don't watch much of their material, but don't recall hearing of one.
> 
> As for other early thoughts on slow motoring, that's pretty common on a long passage one can't actually motor across. It conserves fuel, disproportionately higher than the reduction in speed. Said differently, the slower you go, the more fuel efficient in miles per gallon/liter of fuel.
> 
> Crossing the North Atlantic in November, with a toddler, is reason to question their judgement. Ultimately, my position is they get to make the final call, they are the parents. However, I've seen some footage of them underway, with Elyna and the baby on the trampoline, with no pfds. In our Nanny State, that would get the kid taken away from them. Complacency kills.


Not agreeing with the vBloggers' judgment, but apparently people have done dumber things with a boat and a baby...


----------



## Sal Paradise

I'm all in favor of what they are about, and how they make it work- , although I admit I am not really a La Vagabonde viewer. I am just really shocked they went into this gale just now.


----------



## Paul2000

midwesterner said:


> I admire Riley, and wish I had done something like he had done, as a young man. He saved up money, working on an oil rig, went to Italy, bought his Beneteau, not knowing anything about sailing.
> 
> I don't think he's ever attended college, but he seems very intelligent and is very well-read. He realized he needed to learn how to sail his boat, if he was going to be traveling around on it, so he learned sailing and made some challenging passages. He wasn't always a luxury yacht owner. He maintained and repaired that Beneteau on his own. He taught himself diesel engine maintenance and repair, and general boat maintenance.
> 
> Then he sails into the Greek Isles and meets a lovely lady lounge singer from his home country, and falls in love. They begin to sail around, and explore the world together.
> 
> At one point, before their YouTube and social media fame took off, they had to fly home to Australia to work for a few months to save up more money. Riley went back to work on an oil ship.
> 
> They could have easily ended up living on land, toiling away at some job, like the rest of us, and sailing occasionally. Instead, they found a way to make money from their story, and the fact that they are both young and attractive. I say good for them.


I agree with your entire post. I also add that for many who dream of sailing and visiting several beautiful places but can't due to medical reasons or financial reasons they are doing the world a favor. They make content for viewers, and if the content were not good they would not be the success they are today. I have followed them for a long time and really enjoy their video's. In the winter when it is a overcast condition for several days I find their video's a welcome change. I worry about Elayna. A couple video's ago she posted how having the child has made her mentally scared of the dangerous things they sometimes do now that the child is part of the risk. She looked like she was about to have a nervous breakdown and that wasn't very long ago. I believe they even took a bit of time in a safe location to kind of take a break and let her recover a bit. This type of voyage this soon might be too much for her. I support them and wish them all the best. I am fine watching them as a travel vlog in safe sailing conditions, and I wish them all the best. I realize many here are experienced sailors and have valid concerns. I will be a bit relieved to see them safely arrive at their destination.


----------



## mbianka

Paul2000 said:


> I agree with your entire post. I also add that for many who dream of sailing and visiting several beautiful places but can't due to medical reasons or financial reasons they are doing the world a favor. They make content for viewers, and if the content were not good they would not be the success they are today. I have followed them for a long time and really enjoy their video's. In the winter when it is a overcast condition for several days I find their video's a welcome change. I worry about Elayna. A couple video's ago she posted how having the child has made her mentally scared of the dangerous things they sometimes do now that the child is part of the risk. She looked like she was about to have a nervous breakdown and that wasn't very long ago. I believe they even took a bit of time in a safe location to kind of take a break and let her recover a bit. This type of voyage this soon might be too much for her. I support them and wish them all the best. I am fine watching them as a travel vlog in safe sailing conditions, and I wish them all the best. I realize many here are experienced sailors and have valid concerns. I will be a bit relieved to see them safely arrive at their destination.


Elanya's not the only one. I've noticed a few other sailing Vloggers starting to become a little apprehensive about continuing with their sojourns. Could be the Cruise Blues Robert Pirsig wrote about in his essay is setting in for some of them. I agree this trip might not help her mental state depending on the conditions they encounter. She did seem pretty stressed not so long ago. Though I also wonder how Riley will hold up if him and Kiki are stuck doing two hour watches. How long can they keep that up? So far things seem to be going all right though. I don't follow La Vagabonde that often but, I wonder if they have a liferaft? I never saw one on deck. Hope they have one for this trip at least and hope they never have to use it if they do.


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

Paul2000 said:


> I worry about Elayna. A couple video's ago she posted how having the child has made her mentally scared of the dangerous things they sometimes do now that the child is part of the risk.


Humans are sucessful because mothers are risk adverse.
They want to pair up with the fittest hunter with the biggest, safest cave. When she pops the sprog she hunkers down in that cave protecting the kids and sends the bloke out for food.

Family groups only move when forced to by dwindling game or some external pressure. 
As cruisers we need to acknowledge we are taking our partner out of their natural safe zone and to make them feel as comfortable as possible by turning the boat into their safe cave.
And to reduce risk. The percentage risk on this trip is higher than other months. It's do-able but the risk is higher. It's that increased risk that is assessed differently by each person... And can have long term effect. There's quite a few relationships that have suffered because 1 person assessed the risk in a different way than the other and now refuses to do the long passages... Or has gone home.

À coupla notes of their voyage so far: so dad, Greta, and mum are just passengers? Elayna has her hands full with the baby. That just leaves Riley & Nikki to sail the boat and they're doing 2 on 2 off. 
2/2 is unsustainable. I like 4 to 6 hour watches so the other gets good sleep. I would also ensure the others, seasick or not, take their turn on watch. If they are novices then get them learning now. If they are seasick getting them active is vital IMHO.

Getting proper, good HOT food in 3 times per day is *vital*... It's not just a nice thing to have when the weather breaks, but a vital necessity for everyone even if the boat is on its ear.

There was dome mention of a lot of sail changes and physical work... Ummmm, I tend to treat the boat very delicately on long passages. I don't want to break stuff. I'm probably less zealous about making sail in storms, I'm more zealous about reducing, keeping the pressure off the kit, than making fast days. Mind you with a storm brewing up the butt speed looks essential here.

Finally, as someone else mentioned, Riley and Elayna are used to passages by themselves. It must be a whole different dynamic with 5 extras on board. I noted the bit about decision making being shared. Don't come on my boat and try that. 

It's all a very interesting voyage. I am sure they'll be fine. I just think the risk percentage is well outside what I personally think is acceptable for me. Now they're out there they just need to mitigate risk and carefully plot a course around these constant gales.

Mark


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

I just checked the weather. They certainly look to be in the perfect spot on the navigatable quadrant of the low.
GFS is showing a nice avenue to remain in. 
It might be bumpy out there from waves coming from all directions but it doesn't look too bad for them. 
Fingers crossed it remainsike this.


----------



## midwesterner

MarkofSeaLife said:


> À coupla notes of their voyage so far: so dad, Greta, and mum are just passengers? Elayna has her hands full with the baby. That just leaves Riley & Nikki to sail the boat and they're doing 2 on 2 off.


Greta is a 16 year old girl and is helping entertain the baby. Sixteen year old girls and babies usually make quick connections. Elyna has pulled many watch periods at the helm, back in their mono hull days, as well as on their cat.



MarkofSeaLife said:


> Finally, as someone else mentioned, Riley and Elayna are used to passages by themselves. It must be a whole different dynamic with 5 extras on board. I noted the bit about decision making being shared. Don't come on my boat and try that.
> Mark


They have sailed plenty of times with guests, friends, and family. They have each had friends who have flown to different parts of the world to join them for a week or two at a time. For a while, they were holding drawings from their YouTube supporters, to boost interest in their videos. They would draw a name, and invite that supporting fan to join them for a week of sailing.

I believe they only have three extra people joining them, Greta, her dad, and Nikki. Nicki sounds like she has quite a sailing resume of her own, and is more of an asset to the trip, than a burden. It sounds like Greta's dad is manning the galley, and Greta is babysitting Lenny. It all sounds like a pretty great group effort, to me.


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## Minnewaska

Paul2000 said:


> .....I worry about Elayna. A couple video's ago she posted how having the child has made her mentally scared of the dangerous things they sometimes do now that the child is part of the risk. She looked like she was about to have a nervous breakdown......


Honestly, I'm not sure whether to take that video at face value, or whether to think that a little extra drama is helpful when you're publishing videos and making $10-20k per episode. Force me to make a bet and it's bit of both.

When they got the new boat, their subscriptions waned for a bit. I think they lost viewers like me, who were more interested in their previous South Pacific travels and depiction of living aboard. Then the catamaran viewers showed up and growth returned slowly. Once their baby was born, viewership went through the roof. One could accurately say they've exploited their baby, whether that is good or bad is in the eye of the beholder.

However, SLV has become a reality show, much more than a sailing show and reality shows are in fashion right now. Not unlike police dramas in the 70s and 80s. Reality shows sell with lots of drama.

The next to watch are SVDelos and SailingRan, both of which are having or just had their babies too. It's to be seen whether they return to the seas with them, but there is clearly a bunch of money to be made doing so.


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## mbianka

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Humans are sucessful because mothers are risk adverse.
> They want to pair up with the fittest hunter with the biggest, safest cave. When she pops the sprog she hunkers down in that cave protecting the kids and sends the bloke out for food.
> 
> Mark


Reminded me when earlier this year they moved onto land for a week or two. Elyana seemed to really enjoy it. Riley went out spear fishing one day off the beach and swam out pretty far to find some reef. He speared a fish but, also attracted three sharks who followed him as he swam back to the beach trying to hold the fish out of the water as he did. He got scrapped up coming to shore too. Don't think he will do that again.


----------



## SanderO

SN has become another publicity channel for SLV... don't they have enough already?


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## mbianka

SanderO said:


> SN has become another publicity channel for SLV... don't they have enough already?


Oh I don't think it's publicity. Personally I'm not a fan or a Patron. I think it's interesting being able to follow the passage and watching their weather routing and decisions. Riley seems a bit of a risk taker as in the video to spear fish off the beach shows. I still remember the hubris that doomed the Rebel Yell boat in the Pacific several years ago. Lavagabonde crew still has a chance to bailout to Bermuda. Curious if they are going to take the opportunity or as planned continue on.


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## SanderO

Mike... correct... Young tends be more risk taking then old. And there's the show off macho thing in play for their viewers I suppose.

There will be hell to pay if this doesn't have a good outcome.


----------



## Ninefingers

If I may ask some sailing questions?

The wind looks about 16-20knts on the beam or even a bit to the rear. Assuming this is correct, is 8.5 knots an expected speed of this cat? 

Mark, you mentioned waves, as a great lakes sailor I've always matched wave direction with wind direction. I gather it's not the same in the ocean. Do they tend to match up after a few days? Where would guess the waves are coming from in their current position?


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## SanderO

Waves in the ocean can have long fetch obviously. When weather systems move the local wind creates local waves... but they will keep going. This can lead to very confused.... as opposed to organized wave trains. On top of that very very large waves from storms very far away become what is best described as rolling hills... very long period. These are not difficult to sail in but sometime they are big enough that in the trough you can't see very much and on the crest you can see much further than what you would in normal waves and calm waters.

You can get waves come from directions which have nothing to do with the wind... and this makes for challenging steering... certainly for an AP. A helmsman has to be looking all around and play the waves.. avoid a huge following see from pooping his stern.

That's my experience.


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## mbianka

Ninefingers said:


> If I may ask some sailing questions?
> 
> The wind looks about 16-20knts on the beam or even a bit to the rear. Assuming this is correct, is 8.5 knots an expected speed of this cat?
> 
> Mark, you mentioned waves, as a great lakes sailor I've always matched wave direction with wind direction. I gather it's not the same in the ocean. Do they tend to match up after a few days? Where would guess the waves are coming from in their current position?


Here is a predicted look on Windy.com at the waves at their 16:00 GMT location. https://www.windy.com/-Waves-waves?waves,32.157,-67.542,5,m:eB6aejd
Wind is out of the south waves are out of the northeast in the 10-15 foot range if it is to be believed. Can't be a fun ride they may be running slower than possible so the boat (or crew) does not get beat up too much.


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## MarkofSeaLife

Ninefingers said:


> Mark, you mentioned waves, as a great lakes sailor I've always matched wave direction with wind direction. I gather it's not the same in the ocean. Do they tend to match up after a few days? Where would guess the waves are coming from in their current position?


They have a very slow boat speed for that wind and angle so the seas must be slowing them. 
4 meter/13 feet seas on a 9 second interval. That Fair Ground roller coaster stuff. 
Those seas from the south. 
They have 20ft seas a few miles away, also from the south but might be 2 different wave trains. 
Then you have 18 foot waves from the EAST just north of them. These waves would be hitting them as well... Doppler Effect.

Different to Lake waves which, after sloshing around, will dissapatevwhen the wind drops... Ocean waves can hold their energy for a lot lot longer.

If these wave heights were at 15 or 20 second intervals it would be fine... But from different directions and so short, you can get a very confused sea.

If 2 waves slosh together from different directions they go up. Straight up. This is what I think a "rogue" wave is.

So each wave will slow a boat unless you get it up your butt when you will then surf. But you don't want to surf in those conditions. (it's fun for a while but on a 3, 000nm passage you eventually break something)

The best the have is extremely steep short seas. But I think they have short steep seas from 2 directions with an occasional wave from the 3rd oblique direction from the south. Ie 2 wave trains from the south and one from the east.

Basically, your "20 knots" is sustained winds... Gusts will be 30 knots but I add 5 knots about 20kts GFS so they are in 35 knot winds with short steep seas.

If it's much different from that I Wi kneel down and apologise - if they survive! :grin

Ps I am sure they will survive but I think it's a tad uncomfortable.

Mark


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

Oh, just a thought....

What's the medical opinion on a 1 year old with seasickness? Can you feed it anti-seasickness pills?

Or are babies more resilient that older kids?


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## Sailorsone

Ninefingers said:


> If I may ask some sailing questions?
> 
> The wind looks about 16-20knts on the beam or even a bit to the rear. Assuming this is correct, is 8.5 knots an expected speed of this cat?
> 
> Mark, you mentioned waves, as a great lakes sailor I've always matched wave direction with wind direction. I gather it's not the same in the ocean. Do they tend to match up after a few days? Where would guess the waves are coming from in their current position?


If you take a look at Windy and go to the wave tab, what you are seeing is the combined average to form the primary wind driven waves. Under that tab are Swell and Swell 2 showing two directions of waves from weather systems further away or older leftover stuff from an old system.

These secondary swells can be dangerous when you suddenly get knocked around by a wave coming from a 90 degree direction that wasn't expected. It's part of ocean sailing.


----------



## mbianka

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Oh, just a thought....
> 
> What's the medical opinion on a 1 year old with seasickness? Can you feed it anti-seasickness pills?
> 
> Or are babies more resilient that older kids?


I'm not a doctor but, Lenny might be too young for a lot of drugs. I just hope they have plenty of clothes for him and plenty of water to clean them. If he is seasick and vomiting he's not going to be a happy sailor. With older children/adults you could encourage them to at least eat something to have something in their stomach even if it eventually comes up. Good luck trying to get a sick toddler to do it.  I was hoping we would get more reports of what conditions were like on board but, maybe they are saving that for You Tube. At least we can see they are moving in the right direction.


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## mbianka

Nikki Henderson has an update on her Facebook page:
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=120525779393858&id=114803459966090
She reports in addition to 30 to 40 knots of wind they also had a calm and a squall over the boat and were collecting water and taking showers on deck. I really do hope they have a watermaker too. I thought Lavagabonde did.


----------



## Minnewaska

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Oh, just a thought....
> 
> What's the medical opinion on a 1 year old with seasickness? Can you feed it anti-seasickness pills?
> 
> Or are babies more resilient that older kids?


I'm not a doc, but I don't think you can give a 1 yr old seasick meds. Of course, why would you want to drug the kid anyway. The passage was optional. Dehydration is the big risk and it's harder to convince the little on to drink, even if they are sick. Imagine seeing your toddlers eyes roll in the back of their head when you're still two weeks from landfall. Geesh.


----------



## mbianka

Noticed at 5:01 GMT La Vagabonde's speed dropped to 5.5 knots with 26 knots of wind from the south. Was at 7.5 knots for a long time.

Sail change? Slowing down for the night?


----------



## Minnewaska

MarkofSeaLife said:


> ....4 meter/13 feet seas on a 9 second interval. That Fair Ground roller coaster stuff.
> Those seas from the south.
> They have 20ft seas a few miles away, also from the south but might be 2 different wave trains.
> Then you have 18 foot waves from the EAST just north of them. These waves would be hitting them as well...





mbianka said:


> Noticed at 5:01 GMT La Vagabonde's speed dropped to 5.5 knots with 26 knots of wind from the south. Was at 7.5 knots for a long time.
> 
> Sail change? Slowing down for the night?


I'm not checking conditions online, but the stuff Mark describes is no joke. I thought I also read wind was opposed to wave direction. Depending on how you're taking the waves, slowing down may be crucial. I can't imagine the terror of having a seasick baby aboard in those conditions.


----------



## mbianka

Minnewaska said:


> I'm not checking conditions online, but the stuff Mark describes is no joke. I thought I also read wind was opposed to wave direction. Depending on how you're taking the waves, slowing down may be crucial. I can't imagine the terror of having a seasick baby aboard in those conditions.


Nikki Henderson seems to be the only one reporting what the conditions are like on board and she described it like being in a washing machine. Got to be careful someone does not get thrown into a table breaking something like a rib in those conditions. I see their speed is back up. Now at 9.3 knots. So hopefully the seas have calmed down a bit.


----------



## SanderO

I suspect the motion of the boat is because it's a catamaran... not that a mono would be a totally smooth ride... I suspect the motion of a mono out there is less like a washing machine. ;-)


----------



## midwesterner

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Humans are sucessful because mothers are risk adverse.
> They want to pair up with the fittest hunter with the biggest, safest cave. When she pops the sprog she hunkers down in that cave protecting the kids and sends the bloke out for food.
> Mark


You hit that nail on the head. I just watched the video, posted here, in which Riley swims out from the shore to spearfish, while Elayna remains back at the beach house of some friends.

When he gets back from his snorkeling outing, Elayna hears the story of how he had to battle several small sharks to keep his catch. He had to keep them at bay with his spear gun for quite a distance, as he swam back to shore. Riley admitted that he should have taken a small boat out to the reef, rather than swimming so far from shore.

Elayna, who has usually been very accommodating to whatever Riley decides, told him firmly, but lovingly, "You're never doing that again. Never again mister!" she reminded him, that his days of being a carefree, adventure seeking, bachelor, are over. He is now a husband and father, and must be careful to return home to his family after each outing.


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## RegisteredUser

I thought they were going to run south of bermuda. Nope.
Everything north is a rough weather churn..all the way


----------



## Ninefingers

SanderO said:


> I suspect the motion of the boat is because it's a catamaran... not that a mono would be a totally smooth ride... I suspect the motion of a mono out there is less like a washing machine. ;-)


I was on a cat in rough great lakes conditions, it was surprised at how jarring the motion was. Very abrupt lateral motion, gave me a sore neck!


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## Minnesail

Windy is showing 30 knots with 13' waves at 7 seconds.

They appear to be on a broad reach at 9.4 knots.


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## MarkofSeaLife

I kinda think "Rough" is 6 foot waves at 6 seconds. 13 feet in 7 is "quite rough"?


----------



## SanderO

MarkofSeaLife said:


> I kinda think "Rough" is 6 foot waves at 6 seconds. 13 feet in 7 is "quite rough"?


My wifey would be telling me to do something about knowing I can't... but it's still my fault!


----------



## mbianka

midwesterner said:


> You hit that nail on the head. I just watched the video, posted here, in which Riley swims out from the shore to spearfish, while Elayna remains back at the beach house of some friends.
> 
> When he gets back from his snorkeling outing, Elayna hears the story of how he had to battle several small sharks to keep his catch. He had to keep them at bay with his spear gun for quite a distance, as he swam back to shore. Riley admitted that he should have taken a small boat out to the reef, rather than swimming so far from shore.
> 
> Elayna, who has usually been very accommodating to whatever Riley decides, told him firmly, but lovingly, "You're never doing that again. Never again mister!" she reminded him, that his days of being a carefree, adventure seeking, bachelor, are over. He is now a husband and father, and must be careful to return home to his family after each outing.


Then there is the fact that he held on to his catch. A more prudent spear fisherman might have left it for the sharks to fight over and high tail it back to shore. He's lucky it did not end like this:

RILEY: Well I lost part of me leg to the sharks but, I kept the fish. Unfortunately, it was not quite as fresh or tasty after I got out of the hospital.


----------



## midwesterner

mbianka said:


> Then there is the fact that he held on to his catch. A more prudent spear fisherman might have left it for the sharks to fight over and high tail it back to shore. He's lucky it did not end like this:
> 
> RILEY: Well I lost part of me leg to the sharks but, I kept the fish. Unfortunately, it was not quite as fresh or tasty after I got out of the hospital.


I don't know, it's sort of like what pilots say about crash landings: "A successful landing, is any landing you walk away from".
In my younger days, I took chances on some of my adventures. They could have turned out badly, but I made it to my sixties with all my limbs, and mostly no serious mishaps. I wouldn't do those things now. And, like Elayna is doing with Riley, my wife got me to be a lot more safety conscious after I married her, and even more so, after we had kids. 
Riley seemed to have that shark situation under control, and he always had the option to give up his fish, but he didn't have to, and he got it back to shore without any mishap. In my book, that makes him "Da Man!" (Plus the fact that he learned from his mistake and has promised his wife that he won't do that again).


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

He got the fish! Doesn't matter how many legs he lost :grin


----------



## mbianka

midwesterner said:


> (Plus the fact that he learned from his mistake and has promised his wife that he won't do that again).


Yeah I will give him that. Learning from mistakes is important for everyone. Now I just wonder what is going on La Vagabonde. How Elyana is holding up with Lenny. Is Riley now sorry that he committed them to this trip? Their silence on their websites as to how things are going may be telling. At least Nikki Henderson seems to be enjoying things enough to take time to post daily so far. Hopefully they are all getting enough rest.


----------



## Minnesail

From Nikki's Facebook post:



> Day 5
> 
> All is well on board La Vagabonde.
> 
> Yesterday and last night the conditions were pretty rough. It was another 24 hours of sailing into the wind which - any sailor will agree - is wet and slow. The wind spent the day being flukey - dying in the terrestrial rain that came with each cloud - changing direction and then filling again. Each cloud had a different pattern. So there was a lot of work changing the sail plans back and forth.
> 
> Last night then arrived - we had all been looking forward to a bit of relief - we were expecting fast reaching conditions (with the wind on our side or behind us). But the upwind sailing prevailed. It was like that moment you think you have gotten to the top of a hill, to find it was a false summit and there is still another ahead.
> 
> We all know there is nothing to do in these conditions than to pull together, be safe and just get on with it - but it still tests on emotions. We have been here five days now, but it feels like we haven't actually made much progress towards Europe so the journey still seems long ahead. It was just one of those days!
> 
> I'd call today a 'hump day' for our team. Thankfully - as I am writing this - the wind is still strong. We are heavily reefed with the smallest mainsail we can get away with and barely any headsail. But the wind has tracked behind us and now La Vagabonde is rocketing along in the direction we would like. There is nothing like progress to put a smile on peoples faces - oh and a flat boat! (Everyone on land - enjoy your flat - stationary - beds and bathrooms and everything else flat today!!)
> 
> A few days ago it was my granny's birthday. If she were alive still she would have been 101. Greta, Svante and I spent some time over sunset yesterday - when the clouds broke and the sun stunningly shone through - to reflect on how important grandparents are and how much we value or have valued their presence, their wisdom and their outlook in our lives. It's comforting to share stories of home - of people you love.


----------



## Minnesail

I have never followed La Vagabonde before. I've never watched even one of their videos.

But I'm having fun tracking this crossing.


----------



## mbianka

"_*We all know there is nothing to do in these conditions than to pull together, be safe and just get on with it - but it still tests on emotions.*_ _We have been here five days now, but it feels like we haven't actually made much progress towards Europe so the journey still seems long ahead. It was just one of those days!"_

I find it curious no mention of Riley, Elyana or Lenny and how they are doing.

_"I'd call today a 'hump day' for our team. Thankfully - as I am writing this - the wind is still strong. We are heavily reefed with the smallest mainsail we can get away with and barely any headsail. But the wind has tracked behind us and now La Vagabonde is rocketing along in the direction we would like. There is nothing like progress to put a smile on peoples faces - oh and a flat boat! (Everyone on land - enjoy your flat - stationary - beds and bathrooms and everything else flat today!!)"_

I know this feeling from the charters we've done on Catamarans. After seven to ten days climbing in and out of the bunk to use the head in the middle of the night. One starts longing for the nice flat bed at home. That's when just at anchor. On a rocking and rolling Cat in the conditions they are sailing in 
the longing for a bed where you just sit up and move without bracing yourself sounds like pure luxury.


----------



## Minnewaska

mbianka said:


> .....I find it curious no mention of Riley, Elyana or Lenny and how they are doing.....


Agreed. Conspicuously missing. Hope all are well.


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

Yep. I'd be pretty pissed off if I'd put my boat and 1 year old at risk only to be left out of the discussion and the sunsets.

Im sure we're just rediculous l'y mind reading and over zealously reading between the lines. 

But if you look back a million posts I said I'm the captain of my boat. Riley and Elayna are 2 against 3.
Its one of the reasons why the 2 I took on as crew for that passage were novice sailors. I don't need someone second guessing my stuff. Nor will I (you'll find this interesting) go to sea where I could be phisically overpowered by the crew. Think that one through! 

As I said, we're mind reading and trying to pluck BS from something that's not there. 

The most likely reason is that each have their own publicity angles and each post for their market/timing/philosophy etc. 


Mark


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## MacBlaze

MarkofSeaLife said:


> The most likely reason is that each have their own publicity angles and each post for their market/timing/philosophy etc.
> 
> Mark


Well they are better sailors than I will ever hope to be if they can still keep their minds on maximizing publicity angles and market timing whilst beating into the wind in the Atlantic... and I do that sh*t for a living... :grin


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## RegisteredUser

Speculation..nation...
That 25yo nikki is prob the reason they didnt land bermuda. 
And more skilled support than riley has ever had..will be good for him long run
Mom looks after the literally bouncing baby
Other 2 are there..when they can be there
Took a big bite into something unknown...


----------



## mbianka

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Yep. I'd be pretty pissed off if I'd put my boat and 1 year old at risk only to be left out of the discussion and the sunsets.
> 
> Im sure we're just rediculous l'y mind reading and over zealously reading between the lines.
> 
> But if you look back a million posts I said I'm the captain of my boat. Riley and Elayna are 2 against 3.
> Its one of the reasons why the 2 I took on as crew for that passage were novice sailors. I don't need someone second guessing my stuff. Nor will I (you'll find this interesting) go to sea where I could be phisically overpowered by the crew. Think that one through!
> 
> As I said, we're mind reading and trying to pluck BS from something that's not there.
> 
> The most likely reason is that each have their own publicity angles and each post for their market/timing/philosophy etc.
> 
> Mark


You'll sing a different tune when the boat arrives in Europe with only three aboard and I'm not saying which three.  The Aussie cinema is full of such stories of the sea.  We might as well speculate a good yarn. 

Seriously, I like to know how they are handling the watches. How Lenny and Elyana are doing. Even how the boat is holding up in the conditions. I guess we will have to wait for the You Tube videos to be edited to find out. In the meantime we will have to rely on Nikki's reports that all is well in the meantime.


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

MacBlaze said:


> Well they are better sailors than I will ever hope to be if they can still keep their minds on maximizing publicity angles and market timing whilst beating into the wind in the Atlantic... and I do that sh*t for a living... :grin


Don't denigrate yourself!

a) sailing isn't that difficult
b) one learns much more, much faster as the owner/skipper. Has Nikki been a skipper, or and owner? Or both? Riley has sailed half the world as both owner and skipper.
c) You're in the industry, then you've seen star-lust surmount all.
d) Ive had 30 years in that industry too.
e) I know Riley and Elayna and I thought Elayna is employable in any/every TV station I know. This rough diamond, down home, rough as guts girl could be the Steve Irwin of any modern network. Everyone is waiting for the next Steve Irwin. She is it. But she has a steely edge to her. She wants and can achieve. 
Don't tell me that these 3 factions on this boat don't have the savvy to manipulate the/their media they way they want: 1 has spoken in front of the UN, the other has the highest grossing sailing video in the world. You're dealing with two of the best manipulators in their own fields... put together in a Big Brother floating household for 3 stormy weeks... the 3rd is the Wild Card, a young woman who appears to have experience, but never as an owner or skipper.

Any anyone wonders why we are talking incessantly about it?????????????????????

Mark


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## RegisteredUser

More spec..
If they can not catch a break, maybe will land horta or madeira to check over the boat
Weather could be such that they do stay south and shoot the strait
Sounds like theyve had some lay down to pee conditions


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## MarkofSeaLife

mbianka said:


> You'll sing a different tune when the boat arrives in Europe with only three aboard and I'm not saying which three.  The Aussie cinema is full of such stories of the sea.


Movie Trailer... slow, deep, Hollywood Voice Over: "7 people on a voyage of a lifetime! The teen vegan environmentalist; the dope smoking hippy; and, the Amazonian bare-breasted wench. Only 3 make it ashore. The witness can't speak. One clearly insane... and 1... with a smile. Maybe the angry planet chewed them up?, or, maybe it was something much, much more sinister."

Rated R (Rated X in some states)

Banned in 34 countries and Utah

.


----------



## mbianka

As Mark pointed out Riley and Eylana have the La Vagabonde Media empire operating smoothly even as they are getting bounced around in the middle of the Atlantic. The video of their Annapolis Boat show appearance has just been posted.


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## RegisteredUser

I havent gone/fallen that deep into it yet, but...yes, please do continue


----------



## MacBlaze

> Rough seas during the night with probably 50 knot gusts. We busted the furling line and made a quick fix but will re-run something when the seas calm. Fortunately we don't need much sail out at the moment anyway.
> These things will happen out here, what has given everyone onboard a lot of confidence is how well La Vaga handled in those conditions. Nothing quite like hand steering in 50+. Wonder and awe.


Riley's latest Instagram post. Things are starting to break...


----------



## TimMarks

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Yep. I'd be pretty pissed off if I'd put my boat and 1 year old at risk only to be left out of the discussion and the sunsets.


Nikki Henderson was brought along because she is an actual expert at sailing. At this point, having jumped into a voyage in the teeth of the storm, I could understand why she wouldn't be mentioning the skipper and his ill-fated decision making. Just wondering why she signed up for this... she had to be taking a close look at the weather before they set sail.

Greta, otoh, should be mentioning her hosts, who hazarded their boat in hopes of latching onto her star power (not that they were doing too bad already, but here is a chance to sign up another 60k viewers). But then, she is only 12yo, so her not doing so is understandable. Linking the instagram accounts of the S/V Vagabond owners probably gave them everything they wanted.


----------



## mbianka

MacBlaze said:


> Riley's latest Instagram post. Things are starting to break...


It will be very interesting to see how the boat holds up and what else breaks on this passage. It sounds like they are not stressing things. Though the weather sometimes has other ideas.


----------



## drew1711

"_A disturbance east of the Lesser Antilles may become the latest Atlantic tropical or subtropical storm, a reminder the 2019 Atlantic hurricane season isn't over yet.

The area of low pressure, known as Invest 90L, is over 200 miles northeast of the northern Leeward Islands, drifting northwestward. An "invest" is a naming convention used by meteorologists to identify disturbances that may develop."
_
_"It's also expected to curl soon enough to remain east of Bermuda. Jet stream winds and an approaching cold front will eventually catch up to it and sweep it into the North Atlantic Ocean."_

Oh, crap...

https://weather.com/storms/hurricane/news/2019-11-18-invest-90l-atlantic-basin-november-2019


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

Crikey.

https://www.tropicaltidbits.com/


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

Passage weather for thursday

When you poke your finger up the nostril of a lion... 

Oh wait.... Isn't the idea to prove global warming has made winter into summer? :|


This voyage is beginning to really piss me off.


----------



## Minnesail

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Oh wait.... Isn't the idea to prove global warming has made winter into summer?


No, that isn't the idea. I don't think anyone has said that.


----------



## MacBlaze

MarkofSeaLife said:


> This voyage is beginning to really piss me off.


Someone's getting cranky... Aren't you in London? Go see a free museum or two. Might even be fun now that the dumb tourists are gone :grin


----------



## drew1711

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Crikey.
> 
> https://www.tropicaltidbits.com/


LVB is at about N34 W60 right now. If this track holds, they will hit it in 72 hours.

I'm not the weather guy let alone a router, but I am clutching my rosery beads here.


----------



## MacBlaze

Nikki's latest post:



> So yesterday was amazing. We surfed at 10-15 knots all the way through the day. The sea state wasn't too big despite it still blowing above 30 knots - which meant it was comfortable - and also faster because we didn't sink down into the trough of too many big waves and stall. At the end of the storm we saw a rainbow glowing - so beautiful - the only colour in a sea of grey and black and white.
> 
> As the afternoon came in the wind started to ease and everything calmed down. It felt so good to make real ground east.
> 
> After poring over the weather we made the decision to intentionally slow down to ensure we miss the worst of the front ahead - we will be holding closer to 6 knots for a few more days. It's an unfamiliar position for me to be in - when you are racing, the idea of intentionally slowing down is almost unheard of. It's feels a bit like driving down the wrong side of the highway in my brain! And in my heart too - I sail for the freedom, for the self-autonomy - and being restricted to a certain speed feels very limiting.
> 
> But there is no doubt onboard - this is the right decision. It is safe and it is comfortable and these are without a doubt the priority. I have learned a lot from Riley - seeing how easily he made that decision - and how at peace he was with it once he made it. Unwavering confidence - and yet a humble openness to suggestion. Both qualities in my opinion that make an impeccable leader. It's reminded me how important it is to take the backseat from being in charge; there is always more than one way to do something.
> 
> Overnight - with a slower boat we managed to sort a few jobs which put our minds at ease. Definitely something therapeutic for me about doing something productive. Neither of us engineers, but Riley and I managed to get our heads around fixing and re-running the furling line that had snapped a few days earlier - this required more than a few brain cells! Then another hour spent sorting an issue with a stiff steering cables. It seemed there was some plastic covering caught in a pulley! #singleuseplasticshouldbebanned


----------



## cherylchecheryl

Minnesail said:


> No, that isn't the idea. I don't think anyone has said that.


I think Mark's point was that they are ignoring that this is the wrong time to be making this passage.


----------



## Ninefingers

MacBlaze said:


> Nikki's latest post:


That's a great post up!


----------



## mbianka

From Nikki's posts and the smiling Instagram pictures of the crew in their foulies and life vests. It appears as though all is well on board.
Looks like:

Elyana is not in a heap crying "I did not sign up for this!"
Greta and her father are not incapacitated by sea sickness.
Lenny is not sliding around on a vomit coated cabin floor.
Nikki and Riley are not fist fighting over the weather routing plans. 

Might make for some pretty boring Vagabond passage videos if this keeps up. But as Mark pointed out there is that storm that could coming up their stern.


----------



## MacBlaze

I know its not how it works, but wouldn't it be amazing if the weather just stopped moving around. Imagine what the last 5 days would have been like if this was the weather they had had —even I could sail that :grin


----------



## midwesterner

mbianka said:


> From Nikki's posts and the smiling Instagram pictures of the crew in their foulies and life vests. It appears as though all is well on board.
> Looks like:
> 
> Elyana is not in a heap crying "I did not sign up for this!"
> 
> Nikki and Riley are not fist fighting over the weather routing plans.
> 
> Might make for some pretty boring Vagabond passage videos if this keeps up. But as Mark pointed out there is that storm that could coming up their stern.


Yes, people seem to really underestimate Elayna, just because she's petite and pretty. She is no lightweight. When Riley met her, she was traveling around Europe, and was entertaining and waiting tables in Greece. I'm sure that she has had her share of experience fending off unwanted attention from drunk pushy men.

There was one episode during their time on their Beneteau, on a night passage, when she had to crawl in a locker to hide, when they thought they were being stalked by pirates. That was their plan they had worked out, so hopefully Riley would only get beaten and robbed, and she wouldn't get raped.

People who have not watched their videos, don't realize that she has pulled her share of night watches, sailing the first La Vagabonde through storms. She's one pretty tough cookie. And Elayna received the same training that Riley did, on how to handle and maneuver a twin prop catamaran. She has proved herself capable, doing that into anchorages, moorings and slips.


----------



## Paul2000

midwesterner said:


> Yes, people seem to really underestimate Elayna, just because she's petite and pretty. She is no lightweight.


When I said I was worried about Elayna, I was talking about her recent Vlog about being more nervous about things since they have the baby on board now. I know she is very capable. I follow their Vlog on youtube and like them both. I wish them a safe passage and hope they enjoy many years doing what they love and making others happy as they follow their travels.

Here is the recent video I was talking about. She talks about it around 9 minutes 40 seconds into the video.


----------



## RegisteredUser

Drama
Need more of it
Never enuff...

Chafe..duh..


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

Paul2000 said:


> Here is the recent video I was talking about. She talks about it around 9 minutes 40 seconds into the video.
> 
> ]


Thanks for posting that and especially the time code. I've not time to watch if all.

Yep, what Elayna says is very heartfelt.

They're out the *right now* in that 26 knit breeze but realizing that's just sustained, it's gotta be gusting well over 30... And knowing you have some tropical storm up to 70 knots sustained, gusting more, on a collision course to meet you in 48 hours.... 
Man, been there, done that when I had to duck south into the Azores High for SEVEN days to avoid a storm. But look at the wx now. There is no escape. The Azores High centre is tiny and way up north.

I better shut up now before my negativity takes over.... But you don't need to get damaged in a storm. Being in a storm can be really quite upsetting. And I know quite a few that have come safely through a blow but have never gone to sea again.


----------



## mbianka

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Thanks for posting that and especially the time code. I've not time to watch if all.
> 
> Yep, what Elayna says is very heartfelt.
> 
> They're out the *right now* in that 26 knit breeze but realizing that's just sustained, it's gotta be gusting well over 30... And knowing you have some tropical storm up to 70 knots sustained, gusting more, on a collision course to meet you in 48 hours....
> Man, been there, done that when I had to duck south into the Azores High for SEVEN days to avoid a storm. But look at the wx now. There is no escape. The Azores High centre is tiny and way up north.
> 
> I better shut up now before my negativity takes over.... But you don't need to get damaged in a storm. Being in a storm can be really quite upsetting. And I know quite a few that have come safely through a blow but have never gone to sea again.


I keep thinking about how that helm position is totally exposed on Lavgabonde. Lots of things to be concerned about in storm conditions beyond boat integrity too. Just finished reading about the Bounty sinking during hurricane Sandy. Sudden lurches of the ship during the storm injured the Captain and chief engineer on two separate occasions. They were not much help physically after that.


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

Oh, great.

In a storm. Another storm behind them and a tropical storm heading up from the Caribbean. 

Utter insanity

Edited to include:

I just downloaded the Grib file:
At their position now gusting 35 knots. Within a few miles its 37 and 38 knots.
At 090 at 4.5 knots... 108 per day 
Thursday dawn 42 knots
Thursday midday wind change 25 knots
Friday 25 knots
Saturday 20 knots 
Friday and Saturday they are a little over 100nms from the Tropical Storm as it reaches 80 knots.
Then 25 knots through all Sunday

Plus I add on 5 knots with GFS over 20 knots.... so that makes it: 42 knots building to 47 knots for 24 hours. Then 30 knots for 24 hours, then 25 knots of a day unless they tag that tropical storm then its anything. Then 30 knots through Sunday.


----------



## Minnewaska

Hoping they make out okay. Assuming they do, I wonder if they’ll acknowledge the mistake. Success does not confirm decision making. Ends do not justify means.


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

The route of the Tropical Storm Vs La Vag...









Too close pour moi!

And from the wonderful Levi Cowan at TropicalTidBits.com


















So its maximum intensity is when its closest to La vagabond.


----------



## SanderO

Excellent reporting Mark. This is very concerning. Let's hope they can make it without problems... Definitely not conditions any responsible skipper would subject themselves, the crew and passengers to if they had a choice..


----------



## midwesterner

By the look of the wind map that MarkOfSeaLife posted, it looks like their best option might be to turn south-by-southwest and try to sail behind the storm, then return to an easterly heading.


----------



## Minnesail

I trust Mark’s forecasting abilities much more than my own, but I hope he’s wrong about what they’re going to run into.

Using my own extremely scientific method of assuming they’re sailing 150 mile days and then measuring out the distance on my monitor with my thumb, Windy dot com shows that they’ll be getting:

Today SW	23
Thursday W	16
Friday NW	19
Saturday W	14
Sunday W	16
Monday W	15
Tuesday W	20
Wednesday	N	8
Thursday NW	20
Friday SE	9


Right now they’re reporting sailing 10 knots at 75º

Wind is 25 knots from 210º

Windy dot com shows 9 foot waves at 7 seconds


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

Minnesail said:


> Right now they're reporting sailing 10 knots at 75º
> 
> Wind is 25 knots from 210º
> 
> Windy dot com shows 9 foot waves at 7 seconds


Wow, you're right! *They've got going again and changed course.*
6 hours ago they were doing 4.9 knots at 090 ... with the idea to keep slow till the storm is passed. Now they are, indeed, at 9.7kts at 072.

This puts them on a nearly parallel course with the tropical storm.
The storm is much larger than I thought, with bands 10 degrees from north to south, 600 n miles.








See the Loop and you will see its looking quite volotile:
https://tropicaltidbits.com/sat/satlooper.php?region=20L&product=ir

I disagree with your wind assesment. Predict wind at their position is showing 26 knots sustained, ie about 32 or more gusting, plus I add on 5 knots when it indicates over 20. I reckon they are in 35-37 ish knots. But, hey, I'm in the Arm-Chair   
https://forecast.predictwind.com/tracking/display/SailingLaVagabonde

But when they hit squalls from the bands of the Tropical Storm then you can chuck your forecasts out the door. Whatever it will be, or is at the moment, its not a nice steady Trade Winds wind.

On the new course of 072 it will put them 270 NMs from the predicted centre of the storm, and the storm, as we said, is 300nms in radius to the outter bands. This gives them an extra margin of safety, and they can easily move and extra 30 or 50nms out of its way if they think its necessary.
Of course, I am mind-reading here. I dont know their thoughts. It seems like a better plan. But if they keep on that course too long they get another storm up their butt from the north-west on Sunday. But the TS will have passed, you say... No! Its gunna take an extra 300 nms to be completely gone past.
Obviously its really complicated to predict how those 2 weather systems will affect the water _in actuality_, but I think they are going to have very rough conditions now until Monday. I think they will try to turn right a little earlier and clip the bottom of the TS hoping it will have disipated a bit and getting themselves into the safety of the Azores High. Good plan, but, remember a big storm can make the Azores High dissappear completley and reinvent itself days later somewhere else.

We need to click on their Predict Wind location often to watch for speed and course changes.
https://forecast.predictwind.com/tracking/display/SailingLaVagabonde

But @Minnesail if I am completely wrong and they are sailing gently with a bit of sun then I'll buy you a beer. :grin

Mark


----------



## mbianka

The latest from Nikki Henderson:

*"Day 8

0540 ship's time and the dawn is nearly breaking the horizon. It's been a serious night! We sailed through two or three thunderstorms - rain like a monsoon, thunder that made me nearly jump out of my skin ... I was just waiting to see if there were monsters under my bed ... bunk ... although we sleep in the saloon to avoid disturbing our precious crew mates ... so perhaps under the sofa? - and lightning. Wow. It was blinding - electric - stunning and terrifying at the same time. We avoided it all successfully.

We are still playing the tortoise not the hare - the weather looks possibly slightly better up ahead with the latest forecast, but we are keeping an eye on things and holding back until we are 100% happy. Then it will be pedal down and fast sailing east - I hope!*"


----------



## Minnesail

It looks terrifying. All those red and orange rotating blobs to avoid.


----------



## mbianka

Minnesail said:


> It looks terrifying. All those red and orange rotating blobs to avoid.


Plus the chance of being one lightning strike away from losing the ability to get up to date weather data. Still wondering how they are handling the watches. Is it just Nikki and Riley?


----------



## chef2sail

This is like a real to life video game played out live on the internet with real peoples lives in the balance. I guess that’s what makes it so titillar and attractive to all involved in it. 

I mean it’s free, the excitement of using your experience in sailing, maneuvering, cruising, weather forecasting, sea state forecasting, interpersonal dramas, daily and modern electronic communications to keep this updated with constant real-time GPS. How exciting we have become and it involves anyone with chess to a computer.

In the old days this would either be a news report or chapter in a book.


----------



## SanderO

I find the "reality TV" aspect of this adventure... creepy. Bad time to make this passage... "passengers" put at risk for what? My take away so far is Riley is not to be taken seriously as a thoughtful and considerate person... but as a exhibitionist, risk taking narcissist.


----------



## TakeFive

Those who accused them of “selling out” to Outremer a few years ago may prove to have been prescient.


----------



## mbianka

chef2sail said:


> This is like a real to life video game played out live on the internet with real peoples lives in the balance. I guess that's what makes it so titillar and attractive to all involved in it.
> 
> I mean it's free, the excitement of using your experience in sailing, maneuvering, cruising, weather forecasting, sea state forecasting, interpersonal dramas, daily and modern electronic communications to keep this updated with constant real-time GPS. How exciting we have become and it involves anyone with chess to a computer.
> 
> In the old days this would either be a news report or chapter in a book.


Indeed we live in amazing times where we can follow voyages like this one in close to real time. Also their videos into their life might give clues to some other reasons for this journey beyond bringing Greta back to Europe. For example in a recent video Elyana laments that Riley has become "obsessed" with designing Catamarans for something like four months. Maybe an additional rational for the trip is since they are heading to Europe might as well make a stop at Outreamer where he can show them his ideas. A look at his Catamaran design obsession starts at 12:38 in this video.


----------



## midwesterner

chef2sail said:


> I mean it's free, the excitement of using your experience in sailing, maneuvering, cruising, weather forecasting, sea state forecasting, interpersonal dramas, *daily and modern electronic communications to keep this updated with constant real-time GPS*. How exciting we have become and it involves anyone with chess to a computer.
> 
> *In the old days this would either be a news report* or chapter in a book.


Yes, and I hate all of this. I keep hearing people say that sat phones are now so cheap, that there is no reason to go off shore without one. I don't want this sort of connectivity. I don't want to be out at sea and have my wife call asking something like, "Honey, it seems like the water in the bathroom isn't as hot as it usually is. Is there something I need to check on the water heater? And where are you, by the way? I'm hearing this loud howling whistling sound." I want to go sailing like Sir Francis Chichester, where my wife gets occasional reports of my whereabouts and wellbeing, when I'm able to shoot a message, in a film canister, onto the deck of a passing freighter, using a sling shot.


----------



## Minnewaska

SanderO said:


> I find the "reality TV" aspect of this adventure... creepy. Bad time to make this passage... "passengers" put at risk for what? My take away so far is Riley is not to be taken seriously as a thoughtful and considerate person... but as a exhibitionist, risk taking narcissist.


This could be the case now. Interestingly, they've told the story of how they originally got involved with vlogging. Riley wanted nothing to do with it. Elayna was the instigator and initial videographer and editor. Riley didn't become a believer and active supporter, until the money started rolling in.


----------



## chef2sail

Actually I was thing that they should make this into Hunger Games Mockinjay Part 3 with the audience voting on how the crew should respond be the SN members following them with their comments. 

Control whether they live or die.....whether they’re voyage is smooth or safe. Take all information sent by Vlog, Weather satellites, forecasters, Using crowd source comments

Kinda of the modern day Roman Collesium feel. Bloodsport involving humans. I struggle with the intensity and the fascination of the posters here with their comments either way. 

Why are we so fascinated and over involved in others lives?
What is the outcome you want to see, or is it just the sport of it?
Suppose something really happened to one of them?


----------



## RegisteredUser

Its the production that captures..or kills..the reality


----------



## mbianka

Minnewaska said:


> This could be the case now. Interestingly, they've told the story of how they originally got involved with vlogging. Riley wanted nothing to do with it. Elayna was the instigator and initial videographer and editor. Riley didn't become a believer and active supporter, until the money started rolling in.


As Cyndi Lauper sang "money changes everything". But, good on them if it allows them to fund their lifestyle. It still is work to produce those videos. It will be interesting to see what comes out of this sail. They had three days to prepare I wonder if they had time to video their preparations?

IMO Outreamer will owe them big time. I can picture their ads now: a smiling Riley, Eylana and Lenny standing on the trampoline with the words "Outreamer North Atlantic Tested.  Of course they need to make it across but, so far so good. Looks like the plan is to ride up and over the high to their east and get as far as they can from the low to the south.


----------



## Minnewaska

One thing is beyond dispute. They desire the public eye, the attention and the resultant money. This thread is exactly what they want. More eyes, more attention, more talk, more exposure. Nothing wrong with a business model, per se.

I just hope this passage was a garden variety bad idea and they make out okay. Not a publicity stunt.


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

Big course change, Household, BB says their new course is 045 from 070.

Speed 7.8k

https://forecast.predictwind.com/tracking/display/SailingLaVagabonde


----------



## SanderO

Minnewaska said:


> This could be the case now. Interestingly, they've told the story of how they originally got involved with vlogging. Riley wanted nothing to do with it. Elayna was the instigator and initial videographer and editor. Riley didn't become a believer and active supporter, until the money started rolling in.


I don't care to know the story...


----------



## mbianka

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Big course change, Household, BB says their new course is 045 from 070.
> 
> Speed 7.8k
> 
> https://forecast.predictwind.com/tracking/display/SailingLaVagabonde


Should be a sweet time for them running depending on the wave action. Then up and over the high no?


----------



## RegisteredUser

Couldve been the sea state

That badness coming from the south is the gut shot now
More spec....


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

mbianka said:


> Should be a sweet time for them running depending on the wave action. Then up and over the high no?


Nope. I'm with @RegisteredUser there's nothing more terrifying that being at sea with a hurricane pointed in your general direction. 
They are so unpredictable.

À few years ago on the way to New York I had 2 TSs aiming at me.

When registereduser says "gut shot" I can tell you that'd exactly the say if feels. 
I think they are more paralleling the predicted path of the TS. When they went from 90 to 70 they were almost doing it but still converging slightly, read my one about the 600nm diameter of this tropical storm. That's a BIG mf. 
Someone said earlier they should be turning back west and SW to avaid it. That's *exactly* what I would be doing... That's exactly what I did on my Azores trip 2 years ago, turned and ran at 90 degrees away from a big storm coming. I was an extra week at sea... But friends rode the first part of the storm into Horta, I asked them what it was like and they looked at me and said 'we are never going to discuss that'. So they must have had a fun trip.
That's why I'm worried about this mob. I know they will be OK, I just don't want them so terrified it affects them long term.



In 3 days when that TS is passed they will be far too far north in the heavy weather belt. They need to be further south near the high. Or that's where I would be. Stop now, or head west, wait till the TS goes past, then due east till I can skirt the high


----------



## RegisteredUser

I guess that that are just caught up in all this nastiness now, having gone north.
There is little room now. Squeezed
Exit lights are few and not brightly lit.


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

RegisteredUser said:


> I guess that that are just caught up in all this nastiness now, having gone north.
> There is little room now. Squeezed
> Exit lights are few and not brightly lit.


Few, and all are now up hill into a 7 second wave period. No chop for a cat. 
I'm actulaay thinking that stilopping would be a good idea. They have slowed down from 10 to 8.
I wonder if they have a drogue on board? Let the stuff to the N and NW of them go and then reassess for what they do with the TS.


----------



## RegisteredUser

Stay away from combat zones.
No...smart reason...to play on their edges.


----------



## smj

mbianka said:


> As Cyndi Lauper sang "money changes everything". But, good on them if it allows them to fund their lifestyle. It still is work to produce those videos. It will be interesting to see what comes out of this sail. They had three days to prepare I wonder if they had time to video their preparations?
> 
> IMO Outreamer will owe them big time. I can picture their ads now: a smiling Riley, Eylana and Lenny standing on the trampoline with the words "Outreamer North Atlantic Tested.  Of course they need to make it across but, so far so good. Looks like the plan is to ride up and over the high to their east and get as far as they can from the low to the south.


Outremer doesn't need the recognition as there have been plenty that have done voyages like this.
Kudos to the sailors on La Vagabonde for living life rather than sitting in armchairs commenting on those that are living life.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## mbianka

smj said:


> Outremer doesn't need the recognition as there have been plenty that have done voyages like this.
> Kudos to the sailors on La Vagabonde for living life rather than sitting in armchairs commenting on those that are living life.
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


So Outremer would ignore a chance to increase their reputation and sales? I don't think so. And the reason those on La Vagabonde can live the life they have is because many armchair sailors are donating to them via sites like Pateron.


----------



## smj

mbianka said:


> So Outremer would ignore a chance to increase their reputation and sales? I don't think so. And the reason those on La Vagabonde can live the life they have is because many armchair sailors are donating to them via sites like Pateron.


I don't think any company would ignore a chance to increase reputation or sales but Outremer has no need to as they have a stellar reputation and are way back ordered.
You do have a point on the donating armchair sailors but I think Riley took on this voyage because of his passion for climate change not their need for more downloadable content. Let's face it, they are doing very well without the press they're receiving from this voyage.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

Dramatic couse change. 005 at 8.7 knots keeping them tightly in the low wind zone between the 2 northern features. This intricate plan must have been suggested by routers relying on a lot of Vagabond luck. A few miles either way and they are in curry. 

TS south of them has intensified overnight to a Cat 2 strength. It's course does look a tad further easterly. I will plot it later when the boat warms up. It's slowed down considerably. 

Weather turns à bit weird as the storm comes up and sucks the energy from the north western feature. But then as it passes winds become favorable westerlies by still far too strong for the whole of the next 7 days.

All I can say is this whole voyage has been the exact reason why sailing this route in November is not "living the life" but risking everyone's lives for total BS. 
You can decide if the BS is money, politics or plain stupidity. 


Mark


----------



## Minnewaska

smj said:


> Outremer doesn't need the recognition as there have been plenty that have done voyages like this.
> Kudos to the sailors on La Vagabonde for living life rather than sitting in armchairs commenting on those that are living life.......


I'm not going tit for tat, but I'll bet the adventure in my day yesterday would best most, if not yours. Relaxing at the end of it, by engaging in these discussions does not imply one is not living life. SLV is specifically in the public eye, by their own desire. By extension, forbidding discussion of any current event, would be to douse all news.


----------



## Minnewaska

SanderO said:


> I don't care to know the story...


That's certainly fine. The head scratcher is why you'd bother saying so.


----------



## Minnewaska

RegisteredUser said:


> Stay away from combat zones.
> No...smart reason...to play on their edges.


append..... with your baby aboard.


----------



## SanderO

Minnewaska said:


> That's certainly fine. The head scratcher is why you'd bother saying so.


I am not much of a voyeur for this sort of thing and don't encourage feeding narcissists.


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

Quick Quiz:


a) What month was the storm that sank the Edmund Fitzgerald?

b) Where did that storm end up?

c) What dates was Superstorm Sandy?

d) What month was the Perfect Storm?

e) What was the peak sustained winds of the Perfect Storm in 1991 compared to the current predicted peak sustained winds of TS Sabastien? (i'll give you a hint: They're the same)



Mark


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

.



> I'm not going tit for tat


This is a speeding warning for both Tit and Tat.

Play the discussion, not the poster 

:grin


----------



## Sailorsone

smj said:


> I think Riley took on this voyage because of his passion for climate change not their need for more downloadable content. Let's face it, they are doing very well without the press they're receiving from this voyage.


I am genuinely curious enough about the whole endeavor that it has me wanting to ask questions on this social media platform. Apparently the ad and awareness campaign has already started working for LA! I actually watched a few episodes for the first time this week:grin.

I'd prefer to not be cynical about this, but the BS about their sailing miles put up red flags that makes the motivation more of a question (not that it really matters). So for those that have watched each LV episode, do they talk about Climate Change? If they have, then it is an important issue for them and you're statement is probably correct. If not, then while it may still be a part of the decision, I can't imagine any new family would take the risk with an infant for a cause that wasn't important enough to bring up before this opportunity to gain more fame.

Regardless of their reason, this is commendable to all involved. Not only for supporting climate change and Greta, but also for stirring up excitement in sailing and cruising that only large exposure like this can. I'm sure everyone, from Outremer to lessor manufacturers; from sailing mags to other youtube sailors; are appreciative of the extra attention this has brought to the lifestyle.


----------



## Minnewaska

I watched all their episodes, prior to leasing the Outremer. I don’t recall climate change being a big part of their lives. However, all sailors have an appreciation for the environment in which we sail and not everything about them would be documented. 

Nevertheless, even if CC is very important to them, it blows away my sensibilities that anyone would think public opinion of climate change, let alone anything pragmatic, would come of sailing across the North Atlantic with a baby and a 12 yr old activist. It would solely cause cheers from the choir. Zero actual impact on climate or opinion. 

The better guess is the hair raising drama of a reality series drawing in more attention, more clicks, more money. I only wish their baby wasn’t part of the ante.


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

If they get into trouble the rescue operation will consume more fossil fuel that 1,000 air flights.


And put further peoples lives at risk.

If those people who called in a mayday on the boat off Maine, were on Vagabond, Riley would have to secure the phones because what I see on the weather map isn't comforting.


----------



## RegisteredUser

They need a high to come between them and that storm to the south


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

Ive just downloaded the proper grib charts and LVs latest course change to 070 and lack of speed change... still 7.9 knots.

This is *my* look and ideas. I know they have professionals looking at this weather. Please dont think I am a professional or spent more than 10 minutes, ok 20, looking at it.

TS Sebastian has stopped overnight... its actually gone backwards in its predicted position for now. Its strongly intensified. It remains intensifying for the next 36 hours when its at its CPA with Vagabond. Its wind speeds in a few models show high Cat 2 at 90 knots. Others show it a little less. Most show it as cat 1 above 65 knots sustained.
Its RADIUS is now 600 n miles due north of its eye. Thats RADIUS not diameter. So its doubled in size since yesterday when its bands were 300 nms out.

I think the Grib files, PredictWind etc are underestimating the northerly reach of this TS.

As you can see from this image (you might need to click on it) the weather that LV is just reaching now and breaking into in the next 30nms is part of the TS that is 770nms south of them.

This is a serious problem as LV does not appear to be trying to slow down. This, imho, is the time you would be stopping a Catamaran with a Jordan Series Drogue, or in a Mono turning upwind and going South West. 
https://www.star.nesdis.noaa.gov/GOES/sector_band.php?sat=G16&sector=taw&band=07&length=24

In HD clarity:
https://www.star.nesdis.noaa.gov/GOES/sector_band.php?sat=G16&sector=taw&band=GEOCOLOR&length=24

Now the bad news from the NHC... Ive bolded the words I don't like! May as well bold the whole damn thing!



> The initial *motion of the storm is tough to assess given that there
> is more than the usual amount of uncertainty in the current
> position, but my best guess is 015/7 kt. * A deep-layer trough over
> the western Atlantic is approaching Sebastien, and that feature
> *should* cause the storm to accelerate to the northeast during the
> next few days. Although the models agree on the overall scenario,
> there are *major along-track or speed differences among the models,*
> with the GFS/HWRF/HMON being the fastest solutions and the ECMWF
> being the slowest. In fact, *at 48 hours, the spread between the GFS
> and ECMWF models is more than 700 n mi.* The NHC forecast lies
> roughly near the middle of the guidance envelope and ends up near
> the UKMET model, but *this prediction is of low confidence*.


*this prediction is of low confidence*

You must be frikken kidding! The NHC doesnt know where or when this damn thing is going!!!!!! And the wind starts to really affect our boat (above 40 knots) in 30nms!

I can just imagine what is going through the minds of Riley and Elayna.

Just as an aside to those from the north or areas that dont have a tropical influence... you can be a long way from the centre of the storm but have squalls with ferocious winds... maybe just for 15 minutes, but at over 50 or 60 knots these can be devestating to boats with sails. And idfficult to see them at night.

I hope they stop where they are. Turn back a hundred miles (SW) if they can, and wait till this has passed.

Mark


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

While I was writing that they have had another course change to 090 at 8.5knots. I think they are searching for this lighter band of wind before the pressure wall to the East. But GFS shows them on the pressure wall where as ECMWF shows its another 50 nms.

Its all a computer game... whose computer model is right? Look outside. A very careful look at the satellite images shows they may be able to do just that. Its its sunny theyre fine. Clouds in front is double-plus-ungood.


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

This satellite image is newer than Vag last predict Wind position by 15 minutes. I think it confirms GFS is closer to true than ECMWF.
But on the 'ground' we shouldn't be expecting any such accuracy... and relying on it!










Sorry its a bit blurry. I had to blow it up a fair bit


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

midwesterner said:


> By the look of the wind map that MarkOfSeaLife posted, it looks like their best option might be to turn south-by-southwest and try to sail behind the storm, then return to an easterly heading.


 @midwesterner said this 23 Hours Ago. Dashedly good advice 

Never worry about having an extra day at sea. 

If they did this 23 hours ago they would be 430nms from where they are now in 15 knots gusting 17. Fishing. Waiting for this thing to go away.

Below is a track of my 2017 june passage Caribbean to the Azores. How I had to miss a storm by deviating for 7 days. an extra week at sea. 









Mark


----------



## RegisteredUser

Getting south looks very very hard.
They didnt leave themselves an out.
So...within 300 or so miles of where they are now..36 hrs..where do you want to be.
Id be hoping for a weaking in that wall to the east and then bust thru there...


----------



## Ninefingers

From 3hrs ago:

Day 9

Well 2 am brought a monumental moment for us on our journey so far - we made it through the cold front!! The wind has started to shift from the south round to the west. It feels quite a relief.

Just as forecast, we spent the last 24 hours or so in gusty conditions - blowing 30 up to 45 knots from behind us. Thankfully the waves were not bad at all probably due to the fact that we kept ourselves south. But the rain on the other hand - wow - I’m British and even I thought that was a lot of rain ... everything is soaked - we have got to the stage where you barely have to wash you hands and your fingertips turn back to something closer to a prune.

When you sail in cold weather - or big winds - there are a few comforts that make it all so much more manageable. For me, nothing beats a hot cup of tea - even better when shared with friends. There has been a lot of those going round over the past few days - friends and hot drinks - which is no mean feat when you are sailing in 45 knots and there is no kettle! Just a pan, and a steady hand.


----------



## bristol299bob

Ninefingers said:


> From 3hrs ago:
> 
> friends and hot drinks - which is no mean feat when you are sailing in 45 knots and there is no kettle! Just a pan, and a steady hand.


Ocean sailing in 45 knots with a TS taking aim is one thing. But no kettle? Barbaric


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

Just wanted to point out the differences in the wind speeds of different computer models for those that may not be overly convescant with them.

If you have read my posts you may have wondered why I keep talking about much higher wind speeds that appear to be forecast. Have I rocks in my head? No. 
So lets have a look... We got this report from the boat a few hours ago: "we spent the last 24 hours or so in gusty conditions - blowing 30 up to 45 knots". So we know the wind speeds I have been talking about are more correct than some of the models.

Lets look at the same time/ same place on PredictWind using ECMWF - the Default, and compared to the one I use, GFS.



















in the same spot ECMWF is showing 26 knots sustained whereas the exact same time /location GFS is showing 38 knots sustained.

Ha, thats only 12 knots the difference! But *26 knots is 101 pounds per square inch pressure. 38 knots is 217 pounds per square inch. DOUBLE the pressure.*

Remember, we need to add the gusts too, and they will be much higher than the sustained.

So.... my rules of thumb are to take the highest wind speed model. To use the Gusts as the indicator, not the sustained. To add on 5 knots onto a model when its over 20 knots. (dunno why, it just seems to always bee more accurate. I take OFF 5 knots under 12 knots ).

So if youre new to newer to cruising thats what I do and why. you will find every person has their own method. Mine might be a bit more conservative than others, but hell, Im alive 

Mark


----------



## Minnesail

Minnewaska said:


> sailing across the North Atlantic with a baby and a 12 yr old activist.


I'm not sure that it makes a difference but Greta is 16, not 12. Still, that's two minors on a risky voyage.

Again using my Extremely Scientific and Undeniably Correct Protocol of going thumb-over-thumb on my monitor with Windy dot com, I have come up with this forecast for La Vagabonde:

Today	W 19
Friday	W 22
Saturday	W 8
Sunday	NW 14
Monday	W 13
Tuesday	SW 23
Wednesday	W 18
Thursday	NW 15
Friday	NW 8


----------



## mbianka

bristol299bob said:


> Ocean sailing in 45 knots with a TS taking aim is one thing. But no kettle? Barbaric


How frighteningly unprepared that boat is. I thought Elyana was a big Tea drinker? I do remember a video back when they had the monohull. They were pounding away in a sea and she thought it would be a good idea to make a pot of pasta. Cut to the pasta on the floor and Elyana nursing a bad burn. Now no kettle on board! It seems making a cup of tea carries a scalding risk unnecessarily.


----------



## RegisteredUser

Looks like they may ride that eastern wall NE for a couple of days, a high coming in below...and pop out at horta
Or sumping like that
That bad boy south may be held back


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

There's the difference 12 hours makes... TS disintegrating. NW feature heading up fast, the next 2 lows off Hatteras on Saturday and Monday also heading north.

LV in 25 to 30 and slowly dropping.

Bliss.


----------



## mbianka

MarkofSeaLife said:


> There's the difference 12 hours makes... TS disintegrating. NW feature heading up fast, the next 2 lows off Hatteras on Saturday and Monday also heading north.
> 
> LV in 25 to 30 and slowly dropping.
> 
> Bliss.


Well it's not all good news. Greta reports that La Vagabonde is still a Vegan vessel.


----------



## midwesterner

mbianka said:


> Well it's not all good news. Greta reports that La Vagabonde is still a Vegan vessel.


What's wrong with that? I go mostly vegan now, when sailing. The boat is so much cleaner now, than when I tried to have fresh meat and eggs.


----------



## mbianka

midwesterner said:


> What's wrong with that? I go mostly vegan now, when sailing. The boat is so much cleaner now, than when I tried to have fresh meat and eggs.


It's a JOKE! Enjoy your Veggie Burger in paradise.


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

midwesterner said:


> The boat is so much cleaner now, than when I tried to have fresh meat and eggs.


Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Fresh eggs!!!!!!! How did you do the bacon??

.


----------



## TakeFive

mbianka said:


> It's a JOKE! Enjoy your Veggie Burger in paradise.


I think his post was a joke too. Just look at his picture!


----------



## RegisteredUser

What happened with that guy who sailed around with a chicken
I lost track


----------



## midwesterner

mbianka said:


> It's a JOKE! Enjoy your Veggie Burger in paradise.


Yeah, Bianka, did you see my attached photo of my "fresh" chicken and eggs? (The guy in the photo is not really me)


----------



## MacBlaze

Nikki on Facebook-sounds like she might be a cat convert :wink


> Day 10
> 
> We are on the move again. It has been a glorious day. The big purple spinnaker was flying all yesterday afternoon and into the night, and we dropped it as the wind increased around 2200. The boat has been soaring - absolutely sending it! 10-20 knots all day. Amazing. The hum as La Vagabonde starts to plane is a familiar feeling now - and as the sea state flattens we are going even faster.
> 
> We have played around with which tack to sail on - right now the wind is coming from exactly opposite where we want to go - we are sailing angles, rather than dead downwind, so the decision of whether to sail more east or more north of our rhumb line is our main challenge right now. We are heading east for now, due to its better VMG (velocity made good - the speed we are moving in the direction of Lisbon). We can only sail about 10-20 degrees course on the other tack.
> 
> Not only has the sailing been good - but so has the camaraderie. We cracked open the bottle of Macallan and had a small dram before dinner, as well as a much awaited bag of crisps (a high commodity onboard!) and sat around our dinner table listening to Elayna play the guitar and sing. She has a beautiful voice.
> 
> For me - the only Crew member with no family onboard - moments like this are particularly special - to feel the closeness and love of community.
> 
> It feels like a bit of a come down after a week of poring over a challenging weather forecast - lots of upwind sailing - careful positioning - slow progress - with a very windy front inevitably awaiting us. So relief was in the air - at least from Riley and myself. Relief but never total relaxation .. we are not even halfway if you count the miles - and I'm sure the North Atlantic will have another challenge to throw our way - so we are as ever - on watch! ... and awake at 0300am.


----------



## Minnewaska

Sounds like attitudes are positive and reality is at hand. Makes for a successful, even if difficult, passage.


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

What a difference a day makes!

Someone should write a song.... 

Interesting point. They say they were flying a kite all yesterday afternoon. But NHC wasn't thinking the TS would disintergrat in their discussion then. However LV had dropped behind that Wall. 

They must have been shuffling their butt to keep up to, but not pass, that wall. 

Amazingly good call.


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

They also said, for the first time, Lisbon is their port...
Great circle rout from them to there is 72 deg. That's why they were on that à fair bit. 
Their course is a bit north of the Azores.


----------



## Minnesail

If I do say so myself, I'm getting good results from my Extremely Scientific and Undeniably Correct Protocol of going thumb-over-thumb on the monitor with Windy.

On Wednesday I predicted Thursday morning W 16 and Friday morning NW 19

On Thursday they actually got W 19. I revised my Friday forecast to W 22.

This morning they actually got W 20.



So continuing on with my ESaUCP, I now predict:
Today W 20
Saturday SW 18
Sunday N 11
Monday SW 7
Tuesday SW 15
Wednesday SW 20
Thursday W 21
Friday NW 9


----------



## mbianka

midwesterner said:


> Yeah, Bianka, did you see my attached photo of my "fresh" chicken and eggs? (The guy in the photo is not really me)


No I did not see it originally. Mystery of the Internet or old age perception.


----------



## mbianka

Elyana reports they are almost out of the prepared meals people in Norfolk donated to them and they are going to have to start cooking soon. They are skirting an area of light winds (10 knots) and confused seas. Looks like another front is coming up their stern. Did a screen capture from Windy which appears to show an ominous presence just north of their current location this morning. Spooky!


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

mbianka said:


> Did a screen capture from Windy which appears to show an ominous presence just north of their current location this morning. Spooky!


OMG, Mike !!

You've screen-captured Gretas Time Travel self checking to see if she's brushed her teeth!

Quick, email New York Times!

https://www.insider.com/greta-thunbergs-lookalike-been-spotted-in-a-picture-from-1898-2019-11

Mark


----------



## mbianka

MarkofSeaLife said:


> OMG, Mike !!
> 
> You've screen-captured Gretas Time Travel self checking to see if she's brushed her teeth!
> 
> Quick, email New York Times!
> 
> https://www.insider.com/greta-thunbergs-lookalike-been-spotted-in-a-picture-from-1898-2019-11
> Mark


If that is true and she is so smart why didn't she stop the combustion engine when she had a chance? Oh wait a minute maybe she was the one who pushed Rudolph Diesel off the ship in 1913.


----------



## cherylchecheryl

mbianka said:


> If that is true and she is so smart why didn't she stop the combustion engine when she had a chance? Oh wait a minute maybe she was the one who pushed Rudolph Diesel off the ship in 1913.


The Thread Police don't always approve, but it is quirky digressions like this that are one of the things I find so interesting about this forum. I found reading about Rudolph Diesel's life and his engine fascinating, and I probably would have never looked into it except for the click bait of pushing him off the ship. Peanut oil? I never knew.


----------



## RegisteredUser

Yeah, latitude allowed..nuggets available


----------



## cherylchecheryl

Minnesail said:


> If I do say so myself, I'm getting good results from my Extremely Scientific and Undeniably Correct Protocol of going thumb-over-thumb on the monitor with Windy.
> 
> On Wednesday I predicted Thursday morning W 16 and Friday morning NW 19
> 
> On Thursday they actually got W 19. I revised my Friday forecast to W 22.
> 
> This morning they actually got W 20.
> 
> So continuing on with my ESaUCP, I now predict:
> Today W 20
> Saturday SW 18
> Sunday N 11
> Monday SW 7
> Tuesday SW 15
> Wednesday SW 20
> Thursday W 21
> Friday NW 9


Guess one could say that you are all thumbs. lol


----------



## mbianka

The latest report from Nikki Henderson:

Day 12

The day started with no wind. Riley and I worried we had ended up too far south. So we spent a few hours creeping north - to much avail - awaiting us by 1000am was 15-20 knots from the south west and we have been sailing in it ever since! We flew the spinnaker all day, and have had a jib and main all night in various different reef set-ups. With a front approaching and the excitement of the last few days not far from our mind - we are being extra cautious of those ‘big black clouds’ on the horizon ...

What a difference a day can make. If we were are all flowers - today we bloomed. Music played - we did our laundry - danced a little - not to mention some stunning sailing - we did some exercise (the Swedes are particularly good at keeping up the routine in this department!) - we all freshened up with a quick shower, shave and so on - and had two great meals with our (amazingly) still crisp lettuce, cucumber, tomatoes and so on for lunch and a stellar gnocchi and vegetable dinner made by Elayna. Riley and I caught up on some much needed shut-eye with our longest naps of the trip. I think we made 5 hours each?! All in all - perhaps a typical Saturday at sea?

One thing we have all noticed is the traffic. Can you believe in this wide expanse of ocean that we have sailed within visual distance of four cargo ships and a fishing boat in the last day? So I guess you would call it a busy traffic day too ... it’s sort of nice to have the company - in a way - to know we aren’t the only ones out here - but also strange, to feel like our little private bubble isn’t as private as we thought!


----------



## Sal Paradise

mbianka said:


> If that is true and she is so smart why didn't she stop the combustion engine when she had a chance? Oh wait a minute maybe she was the one who pushed Rudolph Diesel off the ship in 1913.


Because every time traveller knows; you go straight for baby Hitler. Go big or go home.


----------



## mbianka

cherylchecheryl said:


> I found reading about Rudolph Diesel's life and his engine fascinating, and I probably would have never looked into it except for the click bait of pushing him off the ship. Peanut oil? I never knew.


Which begs the question when they were getting La Vagabonde ready for this trip did they at least put on few containers of Bio-diesel on board to prevent Greta from scowling at them during the trip.


----------



## mbianka

Sal Paradise said:


> Because every time traveller knows; you go straight for baby Hitler. Go big or go home.


Well that was a fail.


----------



## RegisteredUser

mbianka said:


> Which begs the question when they were getting La Vagabonde ready for this trip did they at least put on few containers of Bio-diesel on board to prevent Greta from scowling at them during the trip.


In the mornings you collect the flying fish and process their oil.
I thought all cruisers did this


----------



## midwesterner

mbianka said:


> cherylchecheryl said:
> 
> 
> 
> I found reading about Rudolph Diesel's life and his engine fascinating, and I probably would have never looked into it except for the click bait of pushing him off the ship. Peanut oil? I never knew.
> 
> 
> 
> Which begs the question when they were getting La Vagabonde ready for this trip did they at least put on few containers of Bio-diesel on board to prevent Greta from scowling at them during the trip.
Click to expand...

I don't understand why so many people enjoy hating this girl Greta. What's so objectionable about a teenager suggesting that it might be a good idea if we work to put less pollution into the air and water?

I respect her for being willing to sail across the ocean in a solar powered sailboat, and poop in a bucket. She has made members of her generation more aware of solar power and alternative forms of transportation. Schoolchildren the world over, are sitting in Science, Ecology, and Social Studies classes, watching news accounts of her travels. It has them talking about ways in which they might reduce the amount of plastic they consume in their lives.

I don't understand what she's done to get so many people to want to attack her.


----------



## bigdogandy

midwesterner said:


> I don't understand why so many people enjoy hating this girl Greta. What's so objectionable about a teenager suggesting that it might be a good idea if we work to put less pollution into the air and water?
> 
> I respect her for being willing to sail across the ocean in a solar powered sailboat, and poop in a bucket. She has made members of her generation more aware of solar power and alternative forms of transportation. Schoolchildren the world over, are sitting in Science, Ecology, and Social Studies classes, watching news accounts of her travels. It has them talking about ways in which they might reduce the amount of plastic they consume in their lives.
> 
> I don't understand what she's done to get so many people to want to attack her.


I think she makes some comfortable old white men feel uncomfortable about feeling comfortable.


----------



## cherylchecheryl

I don't think a joke about having some Bio-Diesel on board to prevent scowls falls into the category of an 'attack' by 'so many people'. 

This is a very full of herself young child who has been given a microphone to spout her often-hyperbolic predictions of entire ecosystems collapsing and the start of mass extinction. Someone who wants to grab the world stage and influence nations with outlandish statements should be prepared for some pokes of fun.

But what better way to silence detactors then to accuse others of constant attacks and claim victim status. 

Sorry, but when Greta first picked up a microphone and started telling others what to do with her free speech rights, she opened the door to criticism and comments by others with their free speech rights.

And comfortable old white men...seriously?


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

She's a mouthpiece of her parents activism.

And, whoever you are, don't yell at me. I have worked a lifetime not to be yelled at. Merci beaucoup  


Mark


----------



## Sal Paradise

Well I have 3 millennial kids, all grown up. It is through their comments that I sort of understand her differently. Most older people ( myself included) aren't yet aware how hyper moral the younger generations are. Something about coming of age after The Great Recession, where lot of the safe guards fell apart, then they went to college and saw the uselessness of that. So they are either hyper moral, or completely cynical. Greta is younger than that of course.

My generation, having come of age in the 1980's, was more in the middle...a mediocre suburban life......and had the message that you were considered a naive person if you really cared about morality. Sex, drugs , rock and roll, and later, money - were the goals. Remember " Save the Whales" ?? What a funny joke that was!! I don't think anyone laughs at dead whales these days. Back when I was a kid, only naive or manipulative people cared about the big moral issues. The smart people were cynical. Greed was good as Gordon Gekko told us.... and all that.

These kids are in a whole different frame of reference. They are super moral. You see it in the meetoo thing as well. They get it ina way I don't. When I was younger I thought everyone met their GF or spouse at work. I think a lot of comments are coming from the older amoral perspective. Also, if you make a critical comment, at least be self aware enough to realize what it is that bothers you, and why.


----------



## drew1711

Sal Paradise said:


> Well I have 3 millennial kids, all grown up. It is through their comments that I sort of understand her differently. Most older people ( myself included) aren't yet aware how hyper moral the younger generations are. Something about coming of age after The Great Recession, where lot of the safe guards fell apart, then they went to college and saw the uselessness of that. So they are either hyper moral, or completely cynical. Greta is younger than that of course.
> 
> My generation, having come of age in the 1980's, was more in the middle...a mediocre suburban life......and had the message that you were considered a naive person if you really cared about morality. Sex, drugs , rock and roll, and later, money - were the goals. Remember " Save the Whales" ?? What a funny joke that was!! I don't think anyone laughs at dead whales these days. Back when I was a kid, only naive or manipulative people cared about the big moral issues. The smart people were cynical. Greed was good as Gordon Gekko told us.... and all that.
> 
> These kids are in a whole different frame of reference. They are super moral. You see it in the meetoo thing as well. They get it ina way I don't. When I was younger I thought everyone met their GF or spouse at work. I think a lot of comments are coming from the older amoral perspective. Also, if you make a critical comment, at least be self aware enough to realize what it is that bothers you, and why.
> 
> Wall Street 30th Anniversary | "Greed Is Good" Trailer | 20th Century FOX - YouTube


This is a pretty thoughtful post, Sal. You and I are of the same vintage. We came of age faced with acid rain and AIDS. It's hard not to be a pessimist when rain is poison and sex means death.

In the plus column was young people protesting nuclear proliferation. Do you remember watching, "The Day After?" A lot of kids yelled as loud as Greta is now which no doubt contributed to the ultimate dismantling of the nuclear hair trigger. Not a bad thing.

Now, our friends on LVB appear to be in a happy place. As long as nothing major breaks, they're going to be just fine.


----------



## Minnewaska

Over generalizations of both generations. It’s not unlike saying our generation worked harder at their age. The median may or may not be moving around, but the generations are not as different as everyone would like to suggest. The most overused term is millennial and much research is showing their difference exists, but is just young vs old, not new. My fav is just how newly poor the college graduates are. So was I! For most of my 20s, I was one major car failure away from insolvency. 

Younger generations have always been passionate or rebellious about something. My parents generation was equally out of touch with us. Kids age and become more pragmatic on average. Will happen again. I now feel a whole lot like my parents did, when they were my current age, and I thought they were nuts.


----------



## Sailorsone

Sal Paradise said:


> Well I have 3 millennial kids, all grown up. It is through their comments that I sort of understand her differently. Most older people ( myself included) aren't yet aware how hyper moral the younger generations are. Something about coming of age after The Great Recession, where lot of the safe guards fell apart, then they went to college and saw the uselessness of that. So they are either hyper moral, or completely cynical. Greta is younger than that of course.
> 
> My generation, having come of age in the 1980's, was more in the middle...a mediocre suburban life......and had the message that you were considered a naive person if you really cared about morality. Sex, drugs , rock and roll, and later, money - were the goals. Remember " Save the Whales" ?? What a funny joke that was!! I don't think anyone laughs at dead whales these days. Back when I was a kid, only naive or manipulative people cared about the big moral issues. The smart people were cynical. Greed was good as Gordon Gekko told us.... and all that.
> 
> These kids are in a whole different frame of reference. They are super moral. You see it in the meetoo thing as well. They get it ina way I don't. When I was younger I thought everyone met their GF or spouse at work. I think a lot of comments are coming from the older amoral perspective. Also, if you make a critical comment, at least be self aware enough to realize what it is that bothers you, and why.


That was a great response and really helps to understand the mindset.

Here is a pretty good study on the US Public View on Climate Change:

https://www.pewresearch.org/science...lvl=100&ite=5010&lea=1139200&ctr=0&par=1&trk=

I find it amazing that it's not just a conservative vs liberal view, but also divides among age and sex even within the conservative community.

"There are also divides by age. Among younger Republicans - adults in the Millennial generation and Generation Z, ages 18 to 38 in 2019 - 52% think the government is doing too little on climate. By comparison, 41% among Generation X and 31% of Baby Boomer and older Americans say this. Republican women (46%) also are more inclined than GOP men (34%) to think the government's efforts on climate are insufficient.

Views about government efforts to protect the environment in areas such as water or air quality show similar differences among Republicans by ideology, generation and gender."


----------



## SanderO

YIKES this thread seems to not know what it's about.

What stood out to me... an elder so to speak... is the narcissist thing that young people.... and I include Riley and his wife embrace largely because of the fertile environment of social media. Not only is this how so many young people are making money... selling products and being paid for popularity - CLICKS... something youth from earlier generation did not know.

So you have R&E hunting for publicity and really $$ providing sailing porn for view... and young Greta whose father is chaperoning as well he should be since she's not even of legal age... who believes (right of wrong) that she has a critical message she wants to get out. She too is a creature of the media and social media. Actually nothing will be "$ucce$$ful" without the MSM and social media working for them. Bill McKibben and others before him tried to sound the alarm decades ago. Yet is this very young lady on the autism spectrum who has managed to get more people (especially HER generation) to take notice.

Recall Marshal McLuhan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_McLuhan) - "The media is the message"... boy did he turn out to be right https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_McLuhan.

I would call the present "The age of Narcissism"... where both voyeurism and exhibitionist are the norm. SLV simple turns the meme into a lifestyle and a healhy income.

Oh yea.... they are sailing across the Atlantic Ocean west to east at the wrong time of year... don't forget that one!


----------



## SanderO

ApparitionS said:


> Perhaps less judgment and more positive support would be a better path for all? Not directed at anyone in particular but having read the thread that's what I picked up from it. A


Hard to distinguish between a "judgment" (BAD!) and an (informed???) opinion (GOOD).

I don't think anyone on SN wants to see anyone fail in their efforts related to sailing. I happen to think the an "environmental" consciousness is something all human should have. That may mean understanding that what we do has long term and possibly irreversible consequences.

I personally couldn't care less about what some GenXers do with / on their boat. For me there is no redeeming social impact in what they do. It's entertainment I suppose for some... not for me.

I also think promoting any sort of irresponsible behavior as it relates to sailing is not a good thing. But yea people do risking things because risk is attractive to some. Ocean racers prepare for it to mitigate the risk... but they can't remove it.

What SN readers can learn from this effort is about ocean sailing, weather forecasting / routing... and several SN members have stepped up to the plate on that. Thanks to them.

Thank you very much... but reading about their tea kettle is of not impact.


----------



## Minnesail

It's OK everyone, there's a help! A video for the people triggered by this Swedish kid:
The Greta Thunberg Helpline: For adults angry at a child

I say good for her for acting on her beliefs. And she'd getting to have some incredible adventures, too! I think youth and idealism are good things.

Anyway they appear to have changed course and are heading straight to Lisbon now. Rocking 10.2 knots last I checked!


----------



## Sal Paradise

_Carbon is the slavery of the 21st century - Sal Paradise. 
_

It means that we accept as normal now, that which will appear to be completely immoral to future generations.


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## SanderO

Civilization needs fuel and they will exploit what they can... In the last 70 years or so society recognized that energy has a downside as well and it may likely be worse than imagined. Humans will have to find sustainable solutions or their civilization will be in peril... along with many other living things and eco systems. We can only postpone these solutions so long.

This has nothing to do with sailing any more than stamp collecting.


----------



## midwesterner

MarkofSeaLife said:


> She's a mouthpiece of her parents activism.
> 
> And, whoever you are, don't yell at me. I have worked a lifetime not to be yelled at. Merci beaucoup
> 
> Mark


Really, it's pretty normal for kids to adopt similar views to their parents. If your kids adopt your political and social views, or choose the same church, are they just brain washed mouthpieces of their parent's activism, or politics, or religious dogma? Maybe it reflects that they love their parents, and think that their parents are smart, and they are embracing the values they were taught.


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## midwesterner

SanderO said:


> YIKES this thread seems to not know what it's about.
> 
> What stood out to me... an elder so to speak... is the narcissist thing that young people.... and I include Riley and his wife embrace largely because of the fertile environment of social media. Not only is this how so many young people are making money... selling products and being paid for popularity - CLICKS... something youth from earlier generation did not know.
> 
> I would call the present "The age of Narcissism"... where both voyeurism and exhibitionist are the norm. SLV simple turns the meme into a lifestyle and a healhy income.


I disagree, I don't think it's anything new. People have been taking "selfies" at favorite vacation spots, ever since the portable camera was invented. Anytime a kid pitched a no-hitter in his little league team, his parents bought up all the newspapers, just to send a copy of the article and photo to all the relatives.

People got excited if they were asked to have their photo on the front of a Wheaties box. As far back as when fashion photography was first invented, young girls had dreams of getting paid to be fashion models.

There is a bit of narcissism behind every parent who has ever video taped a school play, or kids ball game.

And how is Facebook any different than the past generations who subjected their friends to pictures and home movies of their vacation?

I know a kid I went to grade school with, who's family got very excited when he was chosen to model kids clothes in the catalog of a local department store.

Narcissism is a basic human drive. That's why we invented the pronouns "I" and "me" in our language.

I've read many of Riley and Elayna's Patreon supporters say that they provide them something to fantasize about, while they are sitting at work, in some cold, snowy, northern city.

There are people who will never sail a boat, and drop anchor in the Canary Islands, who are willing to pay money to people like Riley and Elayna, so they can do it, and provide videos of it.


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## Damon Gannon

drew1711 said:


> We came of age faced with acid rain and AIDS. It's hard not to be a pessimist when rain is poison and sex means death.


Drew, you are absolutely right: acid rain and HIV/AIDS are terrible. But you couldn't have chosen two better examples to illustrate why we should be hopeful about today's problems. Thanks to good science and good public policy, the situation today is so much better with both of these issues. Acid rain in the U.S. has just about been eliminated. When was the last time anyone heard about it in the news? It used to be on the TV daily when you and I were growing up. Likewise, HIV still exists but it is no longer the killer that it once was. With modern medications, HIV is a treatable disease that causes relatively little disruption to one's life (I know the virus is still deadly for those who can't obtain treatment, but there is no denying that the public health crisis of the 1980s has been solved.).

It is safe to say that public activism, primarily by young people, played crucial roles in solving these problems. The stigma of AIDS discouraged drug companies and academic researchers from even searching for a treatment...that is until AIDS activists pressured change. Likewise, the power companies, manufacturers, state governments, and the federal government were unmotivated to do anything to solve acid rain until environmental activists took to the streets. The acid rain case study is particularly relevant to climate change problem. They are both large-scale issues caused by many of the same factors. The fact that we solved the acid rain problem (at least in North America) gives me the greatest hope that we can do the same for climate change. Climate change is a tougher nut to crack, but we have the benefit of our experience solving acid rain and ozone depletion (and 40 years of technological development since we started to grapple with acid rain seriously).

For our generation, acid rain and HIV shaped our outlook on the world. But looking back on both of these crises should give us hope. Now let's get back to sailing...


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## SanderO

midwesterner said:


> I disagree, I don't think it's anything new. People have been taking "selfies" at favorite vacation spots, ever since the portable camera was invented. Anytime a kid pitched a no-hitter in his little league team, his parents bought up all the newspapers, just to send a copy of the article and photo to all the relatives.
> 
> People got excited if they were asked to have their photo on the front of a Wheaties box. As far back as when fashion photography was first invented, young girls had dreams of getting paid to be fashion models.
> 
> There is a bit of narcissism behind every parent who has ever video taped a school play, or kids ball game.
> 
> And how is Facebook any different than the past generations who subjected their friends to pictures and home movies of their vacation?
> 
> I know a kid I went to grade school with, who's family got very excited when he was chosen to model kids clothes in the catalog of a local department store.
> 
> Narcissism is a basic human drive. That's why we invented the pronouns "I" and "me" in our language.
> 
> I've read many of Riley and Elayna's Patreon supporters say that they provide them something to fantasize about, while they are sitting at work, in some cold, snowy, northern city.
> 
> There are people who will never sail a boat, and drop anchor in the Canary Islands, who are willing to pay money to people like Riley and Elayna, so they can do it, and provide videos of it.


can't agree with some of your points... www was a game changer... to think that it's the same of same old... is to miss what it is as a social tool.


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## midwesterner

SanderO said:


> can't agree with some of your points... www was a game changer... to think that it's the same of same old... is to miss what it is as a social tool.


So were semaphore towers, the printing press, the locomotive, telegraph, telephone, automobile, the wireless, air travel, TV, and mobile telephones. If you talk to old people who remember each of those developments, they will tell you that each of these things were game changers, and many were predicted to bring about the demise of the family structure (young people courting in the back seat of cars, and farm kids travelling far from home, never to return). We adjusted to, and accommodated each.


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## RegisteredUser

Semaphore is cool
Got the merit badge...


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## Sal Paradise

midwesterner said:


> So were semaphore towers, the printing press, the locomotive, telegraph, telephone, automobile, the wireless, air travel, TV, and mobile telephones. If you talk to old people who remember each of those developments, they will tell you that each of these things were game changers, and many were predicted to bring about the demise of the family structure (young people courting in the back seat of cars, and farm kids travelling far from home, never to return). We adjusted to, and accommodated each.


Up the road from my house is an old cabin in the woods, owned once by the author John Burroughs. It is now a National Park Service Site. Burroughs was born in 1837 and he published an autobiography of his early life called " My Boyhood" in 1922. From it, writing obviously of his later life, to wit -

_
" ..the families have dwindled out and the social and neighborhood spirit is not the same. No more huskings or quiltings or apple cuts or raising or "bees" of any sort. The telephone and the rural mail delivery have come and the automobile and the daily newspaper. The roads are better, communication quicker....but the men and women and especially the children are not there. The towns and cities are now dominating the country ... and the rural districts are becoming a faded replica of town life."_


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## midwesterner

RegisteredUser said:


> Semaphore is cool
> Got the merit badge...


 And thanks for showing me the correct spelling.

All these old men on here are a hoot, "Why in my day we didn't have a world wide web or instabook. We had to work for a living. We dug coal in dark mines and smelted iron and zinc in stinky smelting plants to earn our money. We didn't get paid to sail around in our bikinis."

The above should be read in the voice of Gilbert Gottfried yelling.


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## Minnesail

I don't know how to turn on a scale in PredictWind, so I don't really know how many miles this is, but they did some funky direction changes. 

Curved slowly south into a broad reach, then straightened out into ddw, then headed north into another broad reach but on a port tack this time.


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## SanderO

midwesterner said:


> So were semaphore towers, the printing press, the locomotive, telegraph, telephone, automobile, the wireless, air travel, TV, and mobile telephones. If you talk to old people who remember each of those developments, they will tell you that each of these things were game changers, and many were predicted to bring about the demise of the family structure (young people courting in the back seat of cars, and farm kids travelling far from home, never to return). We adjusted to, and accommodated each.


true but

Nothing changed the world the way the www did.


----------



## midwesterner

SanderO said:


> midwesterner said:
> 
> 
> 
> So were semaphore towers, the printing press, the locomotive, telegraph, telephone, automobile, the wireless, air travel, TV, and mobile telephones. If you talk to old people who remember each of those developments, they will tell you that each of these things were game changers, and many were predicted to bring about the demise of the family structure (young people courting in the back seat of cars, and farm kids travelling far from home, never to return). We adjusted to, and accommodated each.
> 
> 
> 
> true but
> 
> Nothing changed the world the way the www did.
Click to expand...

Really? I think that's overstating its impact. I think a strong argument could be made that some things like, electricity, the internal combustion engine, semi-conductors, and air travel have had a greater impact.

The advent of widespread, easily available electricity made it possible for most of the world's workforce to work around the clock. Electricity catapulted the Industrial Revolution into a whole new level, creating an industry for things like washing machines, refrigerators, and air conditioners.

Electricity eventually prompted the development of semiconductors, which made space travel possible, and the very computers that make up the world wide web.

Air travel has made any corner of the earth accessible to most people within a day's travel, prompting huge cultural changes and the ability to spread disease clear around the world within a day.


----------



## Minnesail

Now they're heading almost due north on a beam reach and have slowed the boat to 3.8 knots. 

It's the middle of the night for them, right? I wonder if something broke and they're just taking it easy until daylight.


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## mbianka

Minnesail said:


> Now they're heading almost due north on a beam reach and have slowed the boat to 3.8 knots.
> 
> It's the middle of the night for them, right? I wonder if something broke and they're just taking it easy until daylight.


Interesting. Since Nikki Henderson described that both she and Riley are sharing the night watches and sleeping in the main cabin. So they can call on each other if their is some major sail change. The slow down is strange. But, then again they are above 40 degrees north and things are getting colder perhaps they don't want to get to far north to fast. Since they are now in the latitude of my location I can appreciate how nice and cozy it is under the covers in my non rocking bed and don't feel as jealous to be out on the cold north Atlantic with them.


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## mbianka

Hmmm speed has now dropped to 3.1 knots while they are in 26 knots of wind at 1:41 GMT. Wonder if there is trouble and they are just drifting in the Gulf Stream out there.

UPDATE: Just checked on Windy and it looks like they are actually only in 10 knots of wind, So maybe their 3.1 knot speed means there is really no problem. Though LaVagabonde's Predict Wind site shows them in 26 knots. That's a pretty big discrepancy.


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## mbianka

Looks like Windy.com had the wind conditions right compared to Predict Wind. Here is Nikki Hendersons latest post:

*Day 15

After a speedy day averaging 10 knots straight towards Lisbon, it's been a slow night. The wind is down to around 10 knots - which combined with a sloppy sea state left over from the wind we had today - makes for a relatively sluggish and noisy time - noisy due to the slapping of the sails from side to side in the swell. The sailors among you will I'm sure remember the sound well ... with a shudder perhaps! In fact good news is that it's just begun to fill in and shift - happy days for me at 1 am on watch!

We are heading north to search out the NWesterlies for the next few days and position ourselves well for the latter part of the trip - where there is a chance of northerlies / NEasterly winds down the coast of Portugal. Ideally we would be downwind or at least taking those on our beam (side) - hence the trip up the map now.

The day was a relaxed one. Lots of reading - sleeping - I think a game of Yatzy snuck in there. In our groove. It was our 14th day too - not quite close enough to the end to start thinking about land plans - so just another day in the office type thing!

(Riley poring over the weather he downloaded, Greta with her audio book and Svante with his page turner.)*


----------



## mbianka

The latest Lavagabonde video has exposed some interesting deficiencies in their provisioning for long cruises regarding food and fuel. Hopefully they have made corrections for their Atlantic crossing.


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## midwesterner

mbianka said:


> The latest Lavagabonde video has exposed some interesting deficiencies in their provisioning for long cruises regarding food and fuel. Hopefully they have made corrections for their Atlantic crossing.


I think, when they talk about being close to running out of food, Elayna is referring to fresh bread, avocados, and alfalfa sprouts. It means they have to resort to opening cans and cooking rice and risotto. They'll be okay. This is not her first rodeo. She's been doing this a few years.


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## mbianka

midwesterner said:


> I think, when they talk about being close to running out of food, Elayna is referring to fresh bread, avocados, and alfalfa sprouts. It means they have to resort to opening cans and cooking rice and risotto. They'll be okay. This is not her first rodeo. She's been doing this a few years.


I can certainly understand fresh vegetables like lettuce running out. But to only have half an onion at the halfway point is an outrage!  Then Riley only having 1/10 of a tank of diesel left on the passage. Makes one wonder what was he thinking before he set out the 1,000 mile passage. I make sure the Jerry jugs on board are full even it I'm only making a quick hop down the coast. Just in case I need to run the generator more than usual.


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

mbianka said:


> The latest Lavagabonde video has exposed some interesting deficiencies in their provisioning for long cruises regarding food and fuel. Hopefully they have made corrections for their Atlantic crossing.


Yes.

I remember when I was up myself and thought a 3 week passage would take 21 days.

I provisioned precisely for 21 days. Wonderful food!

At Day 21 I was about 10 days from land and I only had my emergency rations!!!!!!!!!!!!! (Pretty much exactly what their main rations are on this video: pasta, rice and SFA for 3 meals per day).

I even ration my chocolate and that ran out on day 21.

I had to eat rice and pasta for 10 day.

OMG

3 Lessons:

A) You're wrong
B) At sea you need food
C) At sea you need treats

Those last 10 days were hard.

Mark
PS Whats Emergency Rations? For me, real food. For Vegans: Meat.


----------



## midwesterner

mbianka said:


> I can certainly understand fresh vegetables like lettuce running out. But to only have half an onion at the halfway point is an outrage!  Then Riley only having 1/10 of a tank of diesel left on the passage. Makes one wonder what was he thinking before he set out the 1,000 mile passage. I make sure the Jerry jugs on board are full even it I'm only making a quick hop down the coast. Just in case I need to run the generator more than usual.


A large percentage of their viewers on Youtube are non sailors. I think they stress the adventure and challenges of their experiences, to provide more sense of drama, and to instruct about the challenges off the cruising life. I'm betting that they will pull in to port soon, with a bit of fuel left, and plenty of unopened dry goods.


----------



## midwesterner

mbianka said:


> I can certainly understand fresh vegetables like lettuce running out. But to only have half an onion at the halfway point is an outrage!  Then Riley only having 1/10 of a tank of diesel left on the passage. Makes one wonder what was he thinking before he set out the 1,000 mile passage. I make sure the Jerry jugs on board are full even it I'm only making a quick hop down the coast. Just in case I need to run the generator more than usual.


A large percentage of their viewers on Youtube are non sailors. I think they stress the adventure and challenges of their experiences, to provide more sense of drama, and to instruct about the challenges off the cruising life. I'm betting that they will pull in to port soon, with a bit of fuel left, and plenty of unopened dry goods.


----------



## SanderO

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Yes.
> 
> I remember when I was up myself and thought a 3 week passage would take 21 days.
> 
> I provisioned precisely for 21 days. Wonderful food!
> 
> At Day 21 I was about 10 days from land and I only had my emergency rations!!!!!!!!!!!!! (Pretty much exactly what their main rations are on this video: pasta, rice and SFA for 3 meals per day).
> 
> I even ration my chocolate and that ran out on day 21.
> 
> I had to eat rice and pasta for 10 day.
> 
> OMG
> 
> 3 Lessons:
> 
> A) You're wrong
> B) At sea you need food
> C) At sea you need treats
> 
> Those last 10 days were hard.
> 
> Mark
> PS Whats Emergency Rations? For me, real food. For Vegans: Meat.


Doesn't it make sense to change your meals as it appears the arrival date is pushed back? Do some revised planning????


----------



## RegisteredUser

Pasta with sauce plus parm and peppers, and rice with veggies plus a sauce..are <$1 meals.
Mark wants his treats to keep spirits up.

Its all a personal thing.

I last provisioned..heavily..with 5 different planned meals, and can add to that with shore sourced food. Ill often get on a kick and eat the same meal for several days, then another kick.

My meal planning is probably easier than most as im a 1 real meal plus a snack per day person. Youre attuned to the system you create


----------



## chef2sail

RegisteredUser said:


> Pasta with sauce plus parm and peppers, and rice with veggies plus a sauce..are <$1 meals.
> Mark wants his treats to keep spirits up.
> 
> Its all a personal thing.
> 
> I last provisioned..heavily..with 5 different planned meals, and can add to that with shore sourced food. Ill often get on a kick and eat the same meal for several days, then another kick.
> 
> My meal planning is probably easier than most as im a 1 real meal plus a snack per day person. Youre attuned to the system you create


Some people just eat because they have to survive like you
Others love the tastes of different foods and have enhanced pallettes as well as a bond to food and its inherent commradiere
Most fall somewhere between the two

Just because you are on a passage or cruising does not mean you have to take the minimalist approach of eating like you are in a war on the front and have to eat MREs.

SV Auspicious was very proud of his deliveries where he planned good ( not complicated) meals. Comfort foods , variety , can really break up and make a great passage or cruise.

We are not cruisers, however we have great creative foods made with basic food groups every time we are on the boat. Yes I may have an advantage due to my previous career in culinary, however basic ingredients cooked properly or creatively can be uplifting and add to any situation,

Most boats cruising, traveling have a very positive cooking setup with propane burners over seas and grills. It doesn't take any longer to make something good so why give in to the drab mundane day after day food.

Generally our leftovers become tomorrow's lunch.


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## SanderO

Fresh fruit and vegetables are to maintain is hard on a passage of more than week. I usually bought cooked and frozen meals.., stews and so on... which were easy to get ready and eat... no knife, fork and plate. Dining is for stable platforms. You can still eat tasty food on passage. Why not?


----------



## RegisteredUser

Again..all different.
I loaded 10 months of food, but shorted on rum. Only 8 months worth.
Will prob be back in states in a couple of months and will eventually sort thru and inventory whats left.
Overall, plan has gone very well. 
My interests and plans change quite often

Do what works for you, as that is what its all about


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## chef2sail

SanderO said:


> Fresh fruit and vegetables are to maintain is hard on a passage of more than week. I usually bought cooked and frozen meals.., stews and so on... which were easy to get ready and eat... no knife, fork and plate. Dining is for stable platforms. You can still eat tasty food on passage. Why not?


Lol...no one means fine center of the plate dining, with a knife and fork.

But everything doesn't have to be a MRE every day. Adding dried fruits, sun dried tomatoes, olives , roasted peppers, pesto, can brighten the most mundane of foods.

Sometimes it's just the ability or want to look at the ingredients you have present a going even a little to the creative side.

Listen, I live in a country of processed fast food where food is not respected vs let's say the European or Asian cultures. It has created and slowly drawn away the importance that food plays in brining people together. People blame families for not having meals together but very few families cook together. Food can be a great comfort on the lonely passage, a great sharing between fellow cruisers breaking bread together etc.

Nothing like a pan made bread from scratch with dried fruit or savory one. It's not hard to make, can be made in a rolling sea.

The psychological pickup on a long passage for the crew is a positive force.


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## SanderO

Pasta is a fine food to do at sea... and you do different shapes and sauces...


----------



## Sailorsone

Like you've said, everyone is different when it comes to food on passage. We've never been food oriented people in the first place, but at sea, my wife and I both lose any desire to eat. We've even had a chief as crew for one passage, but the only difference that made was the uneaten food we were pushing around the plate was pretty, overpriced and gourmet. 

Last 22 day ocean crossing we ate Granola and UHT Milk with an Ensure shake for at least 11 of those days at sea. Strength and energy seemed to hold up fine, but we've got enough reserve fat to keep the boiler running for months.


----------



## chef2sail

One of the keys before the passage is to survey the crew as to their favorite foods, snacks etc. don’t need a chef to make good nutritious food easily. 

I’ve traveled with a number of cruisers from other areas of the world not just the US. Having dinner or traveling with them is entirely different in many cases than my US friends. They seem to enjoy this additional aspect Of their lifestyle. 

We see this often in our weekending use of our boat also. Again I’m not talking about 4 star Michelin chef inspired food. Just adding something to it to kick it up and make it memorable.

Like I said many people just eat because they have to. To me that’s such a waste of time.


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## SanderO

Dave... I don't think anyone one on an ocean crossing sailboat (especially a monohull) expects to eat the same sort of means they would on dirt. Aside from that many people eat simply meals at home and leave the complexity to chefs at restaurants. We've found many tasty pre cooked and prepared foods on groceries these days. Why make pot stickers when you can buy them all prepared for example... or soups? At anchor we could eat the same sort of meals we do at home, but we do need to bring more things because we don't store as much aboard. While you can cook heeled over... it is a challenge.... and some meals are simply harder to pull off on the tilt. And of course eating on the tilt is also a challenge and changes what can be served. So something like Hungarian goulash could be eaten easily on the tilt... preparing it while heeled would be a changed to say the least. One simply needs to plan meals differently and for longer passages use more precooked meals not served on plates, but in bowls. And have plenty of snacks!


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## MarkofSeaLife

On passage I always eat well prepared food. The oven is always on. I cook from scratch, nothing pde-prepared. A huge amount of steak and other meats.

Being on passage give the time to get creative in the kitchen.


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## SanderO

MarkofSeaLife said:


> On passage I always eat well prepared food. The oven is always on. I cook from scratch, nothing pde-prepared. A huge amount of steak and other meats.
> 
> Being on passage give the time to get creative in the kitchen.


I suppose it depends what sort of prepared foods are available where you start. When I departed Bermuda several passages I would have a hotel prepare and freeze some means. They were fabulous. When I live there are may groceries which offer many decent prepared foods such as chicken pot pies... and home made soups. Sure you can do meat and fish but it can be hard to eat plated food on the tilt. Maybe save for DDW????


----------



## mbianka

MarkofSeaLife said:


> On passage I always eat well prepared food. The oven is always on. I cook from scratch, nothing pde-prepared. A huge amount of steak and other meats.
> 
> Being on passage give the time to get creative in the kitchen.
> 
> )


Why not? Other then in stormy conditions some creativity in the galley could deter the boredom that can creep up in long passages. On my trans-Atlantic passage for breakfast we often had fresh baked muffins or pastries and coffee with the sunrise. Followed by sausages, ham or bacon with eggs or omelettes. Save the Oatmeal for cold winter's days on land I say. Lunch might be some Paella or Pizza made on board with a nice Caesar or Greek Salad. Dinner one night was a creamy New England Seafood chowder and some Prime Rib. Those chefs on the Queen Mary 2 knew how to cook and made enough variety so we passagers never got bored with the selections.


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## mbianka

Speaking of meals on board. Here is Nikki Henderson's latest report.

*Day 16

What a good day!

There has been a lot of sails up and sails down. We flew both the Code 0 and Code D (upwind and downwind spinnaker) in efforts to keep moving. In fact - what we were referring to as "a wind hole day" turned out to be less 'holey' than expected. We managed to average 7 knots and make some ground north. Over the next few days - if all goes to plan - we should reap the rewards with some fast downwind sailing towards (ish ... always ish with sailing!!) Lisbon.

We had two sterling meals - fresh coleslaw made with the most invincible food on a boat ... yes you know it ? thanks Elayna - and then lentil and split pea canned soup combination for dinner ... thanks Greta (and this amazing company who make seriously the best canned soup I've ever had). Mmm I guess those were the most significant two events of the day! Greta finished her audio book - Lenny, Elayna and Riley took the morning for family time in their cabin - we had a few long conversations: not always too deep and serious ... one was about our favourite movies of all time. Very different tastes onboard! Forest Gump seemed to produce the most unanimous enthusiasm.

Isn't it amazing how something such a a film can be such a common ground for a group of people of such varying age, nationality - even mother tongue? Film - music - the arts - on reflection this was just one of many examples to support the idea that they are so important for us and for this world; they can be, if used respectfully, a universal language - communication - stretching to emotional and spiritual connection.*


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## MarkofSeaLife

SanderO said:


> it can be hard to eat plated food on the tilt. Maybe save for DDW????


Peas.

There was something else I've cooked that's stupid.... Something round. Meat balls? Brussel Sprouts?.... 
Ahhhh more simple than that: sausages. 
Cooked up a plate full and lost them on the floor in 5 seconds


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## SanderO

For years I tried to get the wifey to do Thanksgiving on board anchored at the Statue of Liberty. She quashed the idea... too much prep on board too much shlepping food... possible rocking at anchor... snow? High winds? (we got 30 today!)

We do lobster (steamed ashore) in Newport on Independence day... w/ corn on the cob and salad! (beer of course)


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## mbianka

SanderO said:


> For years I tried to get the wifey to do Thanksgiving on board anchored at the Statue of Liberty. She quashed the idea... too much prep on board too much shlepping food... possible rocking at anchor... snow? High winds? (we got 30 today!)
> 
> We do lobster (steamed ashore) in Newport on Independence day... w/ corn on the cob and salad! (beer of course)


I had one Thanksgiving on board I did not exactly cook it and there were still issues with it's implementation: https://biankablog.blogspot.com/2019/11/a-thanksgiving-to-remember.html

Sad to think that the non American crew on board La Vagabonde will not know the pleasure of a nice hot Thanksgiving meal in the cold North Atlantic. But, most are vegen so they really won't miss it. Though I suspect Nikki may be secretly thinking about at least having some Bangers and Mash once she is back in England.


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## RegisteredUser

Make 5 gal of chili.
Heat and serve in tumblers when stomach growls


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## chef2sail

SanderO said:


> Dave... I don't think anyone one on an ocean crossing sailboat (especially a monohull) expects to eat the same sort of means they would on dirt. Aside from that many people eat simply meals at home and leave the complexity to chefs at restaurants. We've found many tasty pre cooked and prepared foods on groceries these days. Why make pot stickers when you can buy them all prepared for example... or soups? At anchor we could eat the same sort of meals we do at home, but we do need to bring more things because we don't store as much aboard. While you can cook heeled over... it is a challenge.... and some meals are simply harder to pull off on the tilt. And of course eating on the tilt is also a challenge and changes what can be served. So something like Hungarian goulash could be eaten easily on the tilt... preparing it while heeled would be a changed to say the least. One simply needs to plan meals differently and for longer passages use more precooked meals not served on plates, but in bowls. And have plenty of snacks!


Jeff, hpullthat big catamaran isn't very heeled over. Of course you can't prepare the same on rough days on passage, but not every day is sailed that way. Plenty of reasonable days too.

I've only made two trans Atlantic passages, each 22-30 days. There were more days on that monohull to be able to make something other than an MRE, Chef Boyer Dee, or Dinty More.

We rarely eat per add food found in supermarkets or else where as we not only have the time or make the time to insure nutritional ingredients, freshness, and also preservatives. We also like the process of cooking our food.

Like I previously said, this prepackaged prepaid convience of food is an American thing. Many of my European, Asian, Australian , South American friends eat better, it isn't gourmet cooking at all it is cultural.

Food, family , crew meals can brighten a long passage. Even the weekend trips we take, one of our highlights is Sat night dinner anchored somewhere beautiful. Either alone or with other friends boats it is an addition to commadarie. The view of course is priceless.

Food ties people together. Food is a part of our DNA and culture. As we regress in America and pine for the days the family ate together it is us who destroyed that with the premade convience solutions to where food becomes a necessity . Like I sail while not just an American paradigm, if you spend ANY time in other countries you immediately see the difference. I have noticed on my own that cruisers from these countries have more commitment to preparing foods than using prepared foods.

Most galleys have enough proper equipment, it is a mindset.

One hopeful change I have seen in the food industry in the last 10 years is millennials are more concerned with nutritional values, chemical preservatives, and fresh local ingredients.i repeat you needn't be a chef in order to cook, experiment or make different food. It's an attitude

I'm trying to be observative not judgemental. That can be hard sometimes when I see good ingredients " doctored" and made "convienent":
There is a trade off for this convience.
,


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## SanderO

I did a 4000 mile delivery to Brazil and we were heeled over a lot. The guy who did the delivery with me was a brit who lived in English Harbor. He loved cooking and did ALL the meals... and we never had the same meal twice and they were brilliant. It's not that it can't be done.... but it's challenging. I see no reason to eat spam or whatever and not proper food.


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## MastUndSchotbruch

chef2sail said:


> Like I previously said, this prepackaged prepaid convience of food is an American thing. Many of my European, Asian, Australian , South American friends eat better, it isn't gourmet cooking at all it is cultural.
> 
> ,


You may be right in general. But the quantity and variety of dried convenience foods in a Japanese supermarket is impressive. As is the density of 7-Eleven, Famiy Mart and Lawson in Japenese cities and towns


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## Sailorsone

I do think you're over simplifying other cultures desires for home cooked vs premade. In most of Asia, Africa, and South America, prepared foods are too expensive for the average family to eat as often as we do in the US. We spent years in Vietnam and watched when KFC and other fast food joints came into the country. They were always full, not with average Vietnamese, but with the upper class that could afford the cost instead of eating at home. Europe's (Northern) taxes, wages and regulations make takeaway much higher priced than the states. 40 euros for burgers, chips and sodas for a family of four is a lot more dear than $25 for the same in the states.


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## RegisteredUser

I was a kid when the poliferation of convience stores started.
I asked why things were much more expensive.
My parents told me...youre paying for...convience...

Economics


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## chef2sail

QUOTE]

Japan is the closest and next society right behind America to lose food identity, especially on the big island where the population density is incredible. It probably mirrors the US in many trends non surprisingly due to US integration after WWII as well as a highly mechanized society where less than 3% of the population is involved in any type of food harvesting or production. The US is a close cousin behind where very few are involved in food production.

Japan as a non agrarian society always had unique ways to preserve foods because of its inability for fresh produce and livestock. It’s no surprise to see the incredible variety of freeze dried / frozen product in Japanese stores.


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## chef2sail

RegisteredUser said:


> I was a kid when the poliferation of convience stores started.
> I asked why things were much more expensive.
> My parents told me...youre paying for...convience...
> 
> Economics


There is no comparison of the European cultures in general feelings and appreciation of food vs Americans. It isn't about convienence or restatuarants or take out food.

Food is a revered part of family life in Europe. Many brought that feeling from there to the new world. In America that has been lost by future generations, while in Europe it persevered and family dining and cooking in general remains an important part of family fabric


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## Minnewaska

We have a local small chain grocery store that makes its own prepared meals. They are homade-ish. At least they aren’t processed with chemicals. Some are better than others, but they are all like buying something cooked at the deli. Then they’re packaged in those containers where I think the oxygen is replaced with an inert gas to help preserve them. If you pick up the new ones, they are good for 10 days, which is pretty good for fresh, non-frozen good. The lasagne is pretty good, as is the chicken and eggplant rolletini. We always buy a few and stick them deep in the fridge for passage. They’re generally backup meals. Easy to microwave underway, if too snotty, but we’d generally heat them in the oven. 

Underway, all meals are served in bowls. Not only is rolling a hassle, but wind too.


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## mbianka

Nikki Henderson's latest update. Things are getting silly on board but, no hallucinations reported. 

*Day 17

I thought I'd share some of our sunshine today with this less than 1000NM to go selfie! We have been absolutely sending it for 24 hours clocking an average speed of 9.7, and still going!

Oh we are very excited to get to Lisbon - and to see you all there.

Things are getting increasingly weird onboard - is this eclectic behaviour a symptom of cabin fever? This evening whilst cooking the most bizarre concoction of all our remaining orange-coloured soups of various flavours - Satisfaction by Otis Redding came on the speaker and Svante, Greta and I all broke into an impromptu dance. Like seriously going for it. Great fun - but so random! Then back to cooking as if nothing had happened. Riley woke up from an afternoon nap at exactly that moment ... to quite the scene. Naturally he joined in. Sadly no photos - too much jiggling and fun was being had.

It was Thanksgiving in America yesterday (or so our calendar said). None of us are from the States, but we thought we would take their tradition into our own hands.

Over dinner (butternut squash and carrot soup - all things orange) we shared with each other what we were thankful for: each other, the fact that this journey is possible, the privilege of being able to experience the ocean - travel - from this perspective, the freedom and the adventure that goes with it, our families, our health, food on the table, wanting for very little. It was special to recognise what we are grateful for - so many things - out loud - it really intensified and highlighted how lucky we are.

What a journey this has been - and now reaching the final stages. If the forecast turns out to be accurate we have one gybe left of the trip - a small sweep up north before our descent to the Portuguese coast. So many memories made - and so many more to make!
*


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## MarkofSeaLife

Geez that 'food' would be killing me.


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## mbianka

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Geez that 'food' would be killing me.


_"This evening whilst cooking the most bizarre concoction of all our remaining orange-coloured soups of various flavours_"

I suspect Nikki and possibly Riley are feeling the same hence the rush to get to Lisbon. They seem to be reduced to cooking by colors.


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## chef2sail

Orange vegetables on a whole have greater lasting power than green vegetables on passage. Great nutritional value. 

They are seeming to be in their rhythm and the boredom that may come with that on a long voyage. Having all that “family living “ space on a cat is great. Since they aren’t sailing heeled over also means there normalcy to their routines and comfort as opposed to a mono. 

After a while this fascination over them with me wanes as For me it’s like watching a bunch of spoiled rich kids who are funded live their lives...... kind of like watching Big Brother without the games and interpersonal drama. 

Many in my generation felt a need to contribute to make society better, their communities better, and make it better for their future generations. Our goals were to make it easier for our own children. I’m not sure where a whole generation of “La Vagabond types “ would help our world. I understand that not everyone feels as I do. 

Many feel no responsibilities to others. To make others pay for my adventure kind of goes against my grain. Buying a house ....and a boat was something I worked hard for. Sacrificing . Scrimping and saving. Worrying about paying for a roof over my head, college for my kids, retirement money for when I retire. I would never have thought to have others fund my hobby or passion. Many of today’s millennials think nothing of it. 
To me it’s incredibly selfish not an adventure in purity. We are teaching them to sell themselves by whatever means commercially possible by rewarding them with views. 

I guess that most “experienced “ members of our generation know that life has many highs and low points. Some of these financially caused. If you don’t know how to cope with that do you want to start in your 40. Eventually their “cuteness” will wane replaced by another power couple or internet fantasy. No spotlight, no money flowing in, no Outreamer. How will they handle that. I venture to say most of us with. Hildren didn’t teach them to be “ the newfound beggars” of the 21 century. 

I’m sure some will think this is harsh, but it is only one persons humble opinion watch their drama play out in public.


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## RegisteredUser

They are entertainers, working and being paid.
I dont understand the negativity
There is no la vag tax levied on anyone.


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## chef2sail

I wouldn’t expect you to understand. 

It’s just my own perspective/ opinion. We all have opinions . That’s what makes the world different. Does not mean you shouldn’t express your / my option because some might see it is negative. I expected pushback from some, especially people with similar values and goals. 

You see them as “ entertainers” . I don’t. Beggars using the new the new technology to maximize their message for money all rapped in in a pretty smart social reality show. Sign of the times for a small segment of our population. If everyone were like them we’d stop as a productive society. Their “schtick “ only works when everyone else works can contribute to them. 

As far as entertainers, There are plenty of UTube entertainers who post but don’t beg for money. 
That by the way is only a small part of the message I posted. I also talked about contributing to community, looking at raising money to send their child to college, being able to sustain their lifestyle in old age. Their position is not sustainable. While now their is no “laVagabond” tax, they will reach a point where the well runs dry. Guess the rest of us will have to pay for the advanced age requirement

Hope they have a plan B for when the money dries up. Frankly I don’t find their reality show type adventures to really be entertainment or informative. I do understand they are a reflection of a segment of what today’s society wants. If that wasn’t so they would be getting other jobs.


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## smj

La Vagabonde puts out entertaining videos which they appear to work hard at. Nobody is forced to pay for this FREE entertainment but you are also free to donate if you want. Ive never felt pressured at all to donate so the thought that they are beggars is ridiculous. 
Maybe your a little jealous? I know I am!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## mbianka

chef2sail said:


> Orange vegetables on a whole have greater lasting power than green vegetables on passage. Great nutritional value.
> 
> They are seeming to be in their rhythm and the boredom that may come with that on a long voyage. Having all that "family living " space on a cat is great. Since they aren't sailing heeled over also means there normalcy to their routines and comfort as opposed to a mono.
> 
> After a while this fascination over them with me wanes as For me it's like watching a bunch of spoiled rich kids who are funded live their lives...... kind of like watching Big Brother without the games and interpersonal drama.
> 
> Many in my generation felt a need to contribute to make society better, their communities better, and make it better for their future generations. Our goals were to make it easier for our own children. I'm not sure where a whole generation of "La Vagabond types " would help our world. I understand that not everyone feels as I do.
> 
> Many feel no responsibilities to others. To make others pay for my adventure kind of goes against my grain. Buying a house ....and a boat was something I worked hard for. Sacrificing . Scrimping and saving. Worrying about paying for a roof over my head, college for my kids, retirement money for when I retire. I would never have thought to have others fund my hobby or passion. Many of today's millennials think nothing of it.
> To me it's incredibly selfish not an adventure in purity. We are teaching them to sell themselves by whatever means commercially possible by rewarding them with views.
> 
> I guess that most "experienced " members of our generation know that life has many highs and low points. Some of these financially caused. If you don't know how to cope with that do you want to start in your 40. Eventually their "cuteness" will wane replaced by another power couple or internet fantasy. No spotlight, no money flowing in, no Outreamer. How will they handle that. I venture to say most of us with. Hildren didn't teach them to be " the newfound beggars" of the 21 century.
> 
> I'm sure some will think this is harsh, but it is only one persons humble opinion watch their drama play out in public.


Well said Chef. I hope not to many of today's youth lose all their work ethic and attempt to strike it rich with a You Tube financed lifestyle. Though I come across more and more sailing vlogs that are trying to get their share of the pie. Pretty soon there may be only crumbs and the future might be pretty bleak without them having saved for a rainy day. Personally, the nineteen years spent on the midnight shift from my 20's to 40's allowed me to save and invest. Did not leave much time for living but, I did get to do some nice traveling on vacations. But, I'm glad I did it then because I could not do it now. I am now enjoying the fruits of those labors and not having to depend on others to finance my desires. I still live a pretty frugal life but, can pretty much do what I want when I want. I try and tell the young people I come across to start investing as soon as they can. Make the money they worked for start working for them ASAP and life can be pretty sweet. Better than trying to sell T shirts with their boats name on the internet and spending hours editing in the cabin to put out weekly videos.


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## MacBlaze

mbianka said:


> Well said Chef. I hope not to many of today's youth lose all their work ethic and attempt to strike it rich with a You Tube financed lifestyle.


Having just spent a week+ editing (badly) three videos of our last trip, I sincerely doubt that the Vagabonde crew (or any other vlogger) has "lost" their work ethic. If anything they have gained more discipline. It took me almost 7 months to get those videos out-they are doing it weekly.


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## mbianka

smj said:


> La Vagabonde puts out entertaining videos which they appear to work hard at. Nobody is forced to pay for this FREE entertainment but you are also free to donate if you want. Ive never felt pressured at all to donate so the thought that they are beggars is ridiculous.
> Maybe your a little jealous? I know I am!
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Pah! Jealous of the La Vagabonde crew? Bouncing around in the north Atlantic in November in 60 degree F temperatures never. But, SV Delos riding the tradewinds toward Antigua maybe a little.


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## smj

mbianka said:


> Pah! Jealous of the La Vagabonde crew? Bouncing around in the north Atlantic in November in 60 degree F temperatures never. But, SV Delos riding the tradewinds toward Antigua maybe a little.


You couldn't pay me to roll downwind on a boat like Delos, but to be making 9-11 kts downwind on a boat like LaVagabonde? Pure bliss!!!!! 
Others opinions may differ 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## chef2sail

smj said:


> La Vagabonde puts out entertaining videos which they appear to work hard at. Nobody is forced to pay for this FREE entertainment but you are also free to donate if you want. Ive never felt pressured at all to donate so the thought that they are beggars is ridiculous.
> Maybe your a little jealous? I know I am!
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I am headed to PT for therapy on my new knee and will respond later, but I have to ask first ....you sail you are jealous of them .....can you explain what is it you are jealous of.


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## chef2sail

mbianka said:


> Well said Chef. I hope not to many of today's youth lose all their work ethic and attempt to strike it rich with a You Tube financed lifestyle. Though I come across more and more sailing vlogs that are trying to get their share of the pie. Pretty soon there may be only crumbs and the future might be pretty bleak without them having saved for a rainy day. Personally, the nineteen years spent on the midnight shift from my 20's to 40's allowed me to save and invest. Did not leave much time for living but, I did get to do some nice traveling on vacations. But, I'm glad I did it then because I could not do it now. I am now enjoying the fruits of those labors and not having to depend on others to finance my desires. I still live a pretty frugal life but, can pretty much do what I want when I want. I try and tell the young people I come across to start investing as soon as they can. Make the money they worked for start working for them ASAP and life can be pretty sweet. Better than trying to sell T shirts with their boats name on the internet and spending hours editing in the cabin to put out weekly videos.


Exactly😃😃😃😃😃


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## smj

chef2sail said:


> I am headed to PT for therapy on my new knee and will respond later, but I have to ask first ....you sail you are jealous of them .....can you explain what is it you are jealous of.


Maybe I should have said envious

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## mbianka

MacBlaze said:


> Having just spent a week+ editing (badly) three videos of our last trip, I sincerely doubt that the Vagabonde crew (or any other vlogger) has "lost" their work ethic. If anything they have gained more discipline. It took me almost 7 months to get those videos out-they are doing it weekly.


Yep like college professors the You Tube life is publish (upload) or perish. They will continue to do well as long as they do and things stay the same. I played around making a videos in years past for fun and they put a few bucks in the wallet. Not a lot but, enough to buy perhaps a new dockline once in awhile. It was fun and there was an upside of getting a buck or two. Until You Tube changed the game. No ads on a channel until you had at least a thousand subscribers. Too much like work trying to build the subscriber numbers for the few pennies in revenue IMO. I don't need the money but, it was a little bit of an incentive until YT suddenly changed the rules. Which they could do at anytime to channels like La Vagabonde's too.


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## RegisteredUser

Tomorrow...happened yesterday.
If necessary, have blinders surgically removed...
But its mental resistance, really
The salt mines and company store system of old
Complain about the flashy car that passed you..without a nod

Piece..


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## mbianka

While Riley continues Radio silence err Internet silence. Nikki Henderson continues to report from on board. Here is her latest:

*Day 18

The stars have just disappeared - after providing a glistening sparkly blanket for us all night. Ever since the front passed over us 24 hours ago, the sky has been clear; the exact same weather pattern that produces those winter mornings after a thunderstorm the night before - where there is frost on the ground being slowly melted by the low-lying sun. You know it's going to be a stunning day, but hats and gloves necessary. Svante, Greta and I took the morning to soak in some vitamin D and consider the excitement to come with the arrival and the COP.

OK some technical jargon:

We have spent the day heading ENE - keeping a true wind angle of about 140-150. Essentially we are trying to make best VMG (fastest speed) east to position ourselves well for when the wind tracks right around to the north east. This has already begun. We started the day yesterday with a wind direction of 270 and it is now (0500 UT-1) 295. We expect by tomorrow morning it will have gone to the right of north, and we should be pointing straight at Lisbon by lunchtime.

It's an interesting phenomenon that sailing 100 extra miles will get us there faster. It can often feel a bit ridiculous to draw these big s curves on the chart. But we will be thanking it for sure tomorrow when we are taking it aft of our beam, rather than smashing into the wind closehauled - as we would have done If we kept to the rhumb line. This boat in particular is just so much faster with a little downwind in the mix.

Ooo and I'm proud to say that at dusk today we smashed La Vagabonde's speed record and hit 23.8 knots!! I'd love to say it was due to expert helming and precision concentration ... but honestly, I was doing a bit of star gazing with Svante - coffee in hand - the credit goes to Agatha (our autopilot which we named a few weeks ago). She is pretty good in this flatter sea-state - and the way that she hums - she is obviously loving it ?

I was saddened to hear about the terror attack in London yesterday - and the anger that is so prevalent. I hope that following us and reading these blogs gives you a little cheer to your morning. There is definitely a feeling on-board that we are about to achieve something pretty special; making the impossible possible really. For maybe the first time today I allowed myself to register that we are likely to actually get Greta to the COP!! Wow. 3 weeks ago we hadn't even met. I've seen first hand from my talks I've given that a story like this can be a source of inspiration - a pocket of sunshine - for the day. I hope it is for all of you this Saturday! (Is it Saturday?? Losing track of the days!!)*


----------



## SanderO

Her reports are well done... and it appears that they will be fine... But I caution with my motto... It's never to late to f+ck up!

I would have thought as a monohull sailor she would have offered some comparison between the cat and a mono in ocean sailing.

And what's with "sail changes". I presume it's the headsail but it a roller reefed on... What are the sail changes she writes about? Storm sails? And spinnaker of course.


----------



## MacBlaze

SanderO said:


> Her reports are well done... and it appears that they will be fine... But I caution with my motto... It's never to late to f+ck up!
> 
> I would have thought as a monohull sailor she would have offered some comparison between the cat and a mono in ocean sailing.
> 
> And what's with "sail changes". I presume it's the headsail but it a roller reefed on... What are the sail changes she writes about? Storm sails? And spinnaker of course.


AFAIK they have two Code sails as well as the roller genoa-and the main of course. But that is about as much sail lore as I can manage :grin


----------



## boatpoker

chef2sail said:


> Orange vegetables on a whole have greater lasting power than green vegetables on passage. Great nutritional value.
> 
> They are seeming to be in their rhythm and the boredom that may come with that on a long voyage. Having all that "family living " space on a cat is great. Since they aren't sailing heeled over also means there normalcy to their routines and comfort as opposed to a mono.
> 
> After a while this fascination over them with me wanes as For me it's like watching a bunch of spoiled rich kids who are funded live their lives...... kind of like watching Big Brother without the games and interpersonal drama.
> 
> Many in my generation felt a need to contribute to make society better, their communities better, and make it better for their future generations. Our goals were to make it easier for our own children. I'm not sure where a whole generation of "La Vagabond types " would help our world. I understand that not everyone feels as I do.
> 
> Many feel no responsibilities to others. To make others pay for my adventure kind of goes against my grain. Buying a house ....and a boat was something I worked hard for. Sacrificing . Scrimping and saving. Worrying about paying for a roof over my head, college for my kids, retirement money for when I retire. I would never have thought to have others fund my hobby or passion. Many of today's millennials think nothing of it.
> To me it's incredibly selfish not an adventure in purity. We are teaching them to sell themselves by whatever means commercially possible by rewarding them with views.
> 
> I guess that most "experienced " members of our generation know that life has many highs and low points. Some of these financially caused. If you don't know how to cope with that do you want to start in your 40. Eventually their "cuteness" will wane replaced by another power couple or internet fantasy. No spotlight, no money flowing in, no Outreamer. How will they handle that. I venture to say most of us with. Hildren didn't teach them to be " the newfound beggars" of the 21 century.
> 
> I'm sure some will think this is harsh, but it is only one persons humble opinion watch their drama play out in public.


I have to admit I've never watched a single youtube sailing video. I've never felt the need to live vicariously and my Sharon is all the entertainment I require


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## SanderO

boatpoker said:


> I have to admit I've never watched a single youtube sailing video. I've never felt the need to live vicariously and my Sharon is all the entertainment I require


Exactly... the curious thing is the boat owner sailors who are subscribers...


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## MacBlaze

SanderO said:


> Exactly... the curious thing is the boat owner sailors who are subscribers...


Not so curious if you spend 10 months out of the year away from your boat :grin

I will admit to giving up on La Vagabond fairly soon after they got the cat. As someone else said, they transitioned away from a sailing channel to a lifestyle channel. I just skim a vid now and then as sort of "dead check."


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## smj

SanderO said:


> Exactly... the curious thing is the boat owner sailors who are subscribers...


Yeah that would kind of like be boat owners reading boating magazines, can you imagine.........


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## SanderO

You shouldn't be spending 10 months a year away from your boat. There will always be projects and planning if not sailing and of course checking that the boat is fairing well in winter lay up.

++++

A member here Chris Goodwin, and a local Long Island sailor was on the crew of Visit Seattle... which was the boat Nikki Henderson did the Clipper race on. Chris did the leg from Seattle to NYC... I believe in 2017 or 2018. Don't know if that was the same year Nikki did the race. The race is basically for amateur crew who train and then sign on for one or more of the 7 legs of the round the world sailing race with a professional skipper. That would be good experience I suppose ;-)


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## Minnewaska

mbianka said:


> Well said Chef. I hope not to many of today's youth lose all their work ethic and attempt to strike it rich with a You Tube financed lifestyle. Though I come across more and more sailing vlogs that are trying to get their share of the pie. Pretty soon there may be only crumbs and the future might be pretty bleak without them having saved for a rainy day.........


Not following the work ethic concern. Best I can tell, the videography and editing are a full time job. One working out of their house isn't the problem, I assume. Working at something one loves isn't the problem, I assume.

I would agree that not many can make it big, just like in all entertainment genres. Most will have to do something more traditional to make a living, because they just didn't have that one extra ingredient. I would also agree that some trying to live hand to mouth, like a beach bum, is not a responsible endeavor. This channel is the top of the pack and it's fairly easy to estimate they take in several hundred thousand dollars per year in revenue. It may be pushing $500k by now. Plenty to fund a very well to do financial household, even after expenses.

Exactly what are they doing wrong (other than risking this passage)? Should they become school teachers for $60k per year instead? I don't watch this channel anymore, but they are literally providing subscribed entertainment, perhaps a little travel education, to millions. There have been travel essays, PBS travel shows, all sorts of forms of this on different media over the years.


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## SanderO

smj said:


> Yeah that would kind of like be boat owners reading boating magazines, can you imagine.........


You think so? Hardly similar... except the medium is sail boat.


----------



## Sailorsone

Minnewaska said:


> I would agree that not many can make it big, just like in all entertainment genres. Most will have to do something more traditional to make a living, because they just didn't have that one extra ingredient. I would also agree that some trying to live hand to mouth, like a beach bum, is not a responsible endeavor. This channel is the top of the pack and it's fairly easy to estimate they take in several hundred thousand dollars per year in revenue. It may be pushing $500k by now. Plenty to fund a very well to do financial household, even after expenses.


Anyone at the top of their field deserves to get paid. I was curious so did a bit of research on Patreon averages from their site and other travel youtubers.

La Vagabonde has 3500 Patreons with average donation of $5. Typical reduction rates after the first video each month is 100% ($17,500) for the first video, 80% ($14,000) second, 65% ($11,375) third and 50% ($8,750)for the forth video of the month. That is $619,500 a year from Patreons.

They had 6.555 million video views in the past 30 days. The numbers from Youtube are $3-5 per 1000 views. Take the lowest of this at $19,650 a month and that is $235,800 a year.

Right there is $855,300 a year not including donations from Paypal, and sponsors like Audible.

What a business they are running! Pretty cool to see what's possible these days with a laptop, camera, good looks and a good story.


----------



## mbianka

Minnewaska said:


> Not following the work ethic concern. Best I can tell, the videography and editing are a full time job. One working out of their house isn't the problem, I assume. Working at something one loves isn't the problem, I assume.
> 
> I would agree that not many can make it big, just like in all entertainment genres. Most will have to do something more traditional to make a living, because they just didn't have that one extra ingredient. I would also agree that some trying to live hand to mouth, like a beach bum, is not a responsible endeavor. This channel is the top of the pack and it's fairly easy to estimate they take in several hundred thousand dollars per year in revenue. It may be pushing $500k by now. Plenty to fund a very well to do financial household, even after expenses.
> 
> Exactly what are they doing wrong (other than risking this passage)? Should they become school teachers for $60k per year instead? I don't watch this channel anymore, but they are literally providing subscribed entertainment, perhaps a little travel education, to millions. There have been travel essays, PBS travel shows, all sorts of forms of this on different media over the years.


Part of the reason they are successful is because of their work ethic. They know they have to feed the beast namely the You Tube channel. No video, no Internet money. They know how important that is. They are even having weekly videos being posted as they are sailing across the Atlantic. Same for all the successful channels out there. They are working for that weekly Internet paycheck and on a bit of a treadmill. Yes, it's a job but, it is still a pretty nice commute they've got.


----------



## boatpoker

smj said:


> Yeah that would kind of like be boat owners reading boating magazines, can you imagine.........


Haven't read one of those either in over 20yrs. :grin


----------



## Minnewaska

Sailorsone said:


> .....Right there is $855,300 a year not including donations from Paypal, and sponsors like Audible.
> 
> What a business they are running! Pretty cool to see what's possible these days with a laptop, camera, good looks and a good story.


While not really fair, it makes one wonder how many of their critics have been this successful. I'm absolutely not saying one's achievements should be measured in dollars, but some argued SLV was being fiscally irresponsible, which would imply anything less is even more irresponsible.


----------



## scratchee

MacBlaze said:


> I will admit to giving up on La Vagabond


I've been enjoying Sailing Project Atticus (on youtube). It's a decent mix of sailing, maintenance, and destination/travel-log. The videos are very high quality, and entertaining.


----------



## mstern

scratchee said:


> I've been enjoying Sailing Project Atticus (on youtube). It's a decent mix of sailing, maintenance, and destination/travel-log. The videos are very high quality, and entertaining.


Atticus is one of my two favorite "sailing" videos. The other is Sailing Soulianis. I also like White Spot Pirates, but I've stopped following Nike regularly.

My favorite is still Mads doing "Sail Life". DIY boat projects are the bomb.

As for the 500 lb. gorillas of the genre (La Vagabonde and SV Delos), I can't say I love them. I've seen a few episodes of each, but neither of them really do it for me. Nothing against them or their model, I just never got into them. I guess I find Atticus and Soulianis more my speed.

The one thing I really don't get about La Vagabonde at this point: how the heck do they do what they do with a infant/toddler aboard? I was just watching old home videos of my kids at that age, and they were all over the place. Uncontrollable. And not just because they would squirm like thirty pound greased worms to go explore, but also because they were too young to understand why they shouldn't be doing whatever it was they were doing (or trying to do). I bought my first "big" boat when my kids were 6 and 4; and I had to watch them like a hawk when we went out for a sail in protected waters. I just don't understand how Riley and Elyana can blue water sail, edit videos, cook meals, or really just get anything done with a one year old aboard.


----------



## smj

boatpoker said:


> Haven't read one of those either in over 20yrs. :grin


Damn, and your a surveyor!


----------



## mbianka

mstern said:


> Atticus is one of my two favorite "sailing" videos. The other is Sailing Soulianis. I also like White Spot Pirates, but I've stopped following Nike regularly.
> 
> My favorite is still Mads doing "Sail Life". DIY boat projects are the bomb.
> 
> As for the 500 lb. gorillas of the genre (La Vagabonde and SV Delos), I can't say I love them. I've seen a few episodes of each, but neither of them really do it for me. Nothing against them or their model, I just never got into them. I guess I find Atticus and Soulianis more my speed.
> 
> The one thing I really don't get about La Vagabonde at this point: how the heck do they do what they do with a infant/toddler aboard? I was just watching old home videos of my kids at that age, and they were all over the place. Uncontrollable. And not just because they would squirm like thirty pound greased worms to go explore, but also because they were too young to understand why they shouldn't be doing whatever it was they were doing (or trying to do). I bought my first "big" boat when my kids were 6 and 4; and I had to watch them like a hawk when we went out for a sail in protected waters. I just don't understand how Riley and Elyana can blue water sail, edit videos, cook meals, or really just get anything done with a one year old aboard.


I think the kid might be taking a bit of a toll on their lifestyle. Elyna has been a bit more stressed in some recent videos. They've also spent some time on land in friends houses and she seems to really like the conveniences who wouldn't after a couple of years living on board. I've watched all of those Vlogs mentioned here and there. Usually only after my boat is on the hard for the winter. As someone mentioned La Vag has become more of a lifestyle vlog. I agree. Though the Atlantic crossing may give them some new interesting material. I do like Ken Boothbay's How to Sail Oceans vlog. Single fellow on a wooden engineless sailboat but, he is not as prolific as others though. The Vlog harbor is getting crowded these days and most of the videos are becoming similar and boring. Though on a cold winter night I find it enjoyable climb into a cozy bed with the laptop and see some Caribbean Blue waters. At least until I head in that direction in a few weeks myself.

Meanwhile it looks like La Vagabonde seems to smell the barn in Lisbon. Boat is moving along at 11 knots Windy.com says 19 foot seas with 30 knots of wind gusting to 43. I just wonder how many reefs they got in.


----------



## boatpoker

smj said:


> Damn, and your a surveyor!


No magazines but around $35k on courses in that time frame


----------



## smj

boatpoker said:


> No magazines but around $35k on courses in that time frame


Cool. I'm a sailing enthusiast and actually enjoy reading the magazines and watching the YouTube videos. Quite a bit can be learned for the open minded.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## SanderO

smj said:


> Cool. I'm a sailing enthusiast and actually enjoy reading the magazines and watching the YouTube videos. Quite a bit can be learned for the open minded.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


That's great.... what sort of things are you learning from SLV for example?


----------



## RegisteredUser

SanderO said:


> That's great.... what sort of things are you learning from SLV for example?


Why do this
What is the upside?
Nada


----------



## smj

SanderO said:


> That's great.... what sort of things are you learning from SLV for example?


That people can live their dreams contrary to what people say in Internet forums.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## RegisteredUser

I lose interest when a vid seems 'too' professional..staged, planned
So its not lifestyle for me...a guess


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## MacBlaze

SanderO said:


> You shouldn't be spending 10 months a year away from your boat. There will always be projects and planning if not sailing and of course checking that the boat is fairing well in winter lay up.


Don't I know it. When we decided to move back ashore we were going to sell, but in the end put her in charter in the PNW. That way we have a boat almost cost-free and someone else puts in the work work.



scratchee said:


> I've been enjoying Sailing Project Atticus (on youtube). It's a decent mix of sailing, maintenance, and destination/travel-log. The videos are very high quality, and entertaining.


You know I started watching them way back when they first started working on their boat. Then they disappeared (working I assume) for a few years. I just never got back to them.


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

SanderO said:


> That's great.... what sort of things are you learning from SLV for example?


From this trip? I learned I am right. Sail only in the right season.

Yes, fortune favoris the brave.... But this was insane IMHO.

:|


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## RegisteredUser

MarkofSeaLife said:


> From this trip? I learned I am right. Sail only in the right season.
> 
> Yes, fortune favoris the brave.... But this was insane IMHO.
> 
> :|


Yes, odds are with the house.
And people..even know this...


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## RegisteredUser

Smart manager will milk the hell out of this one


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## mbianka

Another report from Nikki Henderson:

*Day 19

Well that was a pretty full on day. Now - with nightfall - the sea state has thankfully subsided slightly. The 5 metre waves today came as a stark reminder of who is in charge out here - the ocean did what it does and we managed the situation as best we could.

By managing ... I mean - it was such good fun! We surpassed yesterday and hit a top speed of 24.1 knots - surf after surf after surf hurtled La Vagabond eastwards. Riley and I helmed the entire day and the smiles / very wide eyes said it all. As we accelerate off the tops of the waves the boat starts to hum - faster faster faster - it's the best feeling in the world - the helm is light, the boat is flat, you are just carving through the water - I likened it to slicing a knife through soft butter (!) and then whoosh - we sink into a trough - the adrenalin kicks in as you concentrate to make sure the boat remains under control through the slow down - and then before you know it the next one swoops us up again.

We sailed 250 nautical miles averaging 10 knots - not too bad at all!

Meanwhile - life went on as usual. Elayna made the most delicious vegan pancakes. Everyone was shocked at my choice of lemon and sugar for a topping - apparently that's not universal?! Another new skill honed: surfing at 20 knots (see above) whilst looking down at Lenny every 5 seconds with a different funny face playing peekaboo. It's amazing seeing how much his cognitive levels have developed in just 3 weeks. Greta and Svante soaked up their usual morning rays, and then held a solid effort in the tea and coffee making department. Yes ... we are truly in a rhythm.

Just a few more days - less than 500 miles on our count. We await Lisbon with anticipation ... and I suppose a tinge of sadness that the adventure - as every adventure does - is soon to come to an end. But enough of that for now. Tomorrow is the start of advent, so preparations for the celebrations Swedish style are about to begin!*


----------



## Minnewaska

Outremer is going to market the heck out of this passage. Assuming it's completed in one piece.


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## mbianka

Minnewaska said:


> Outremer is going to market the heck out of this passage. Assuming it's completed in one piece.


Including Riley and Elyana.  I find that Riley is strangely silent about what's going on aboard. Elyana a little less so but, still not as informative or consistant as Nikki. I don't usually follow the LaVagabonde vlog and certainly don't give them any money. Wonder if he has only been reporting to their Patereons on a regular basis or is just wanting for this passage to be over ASAP.


----------



## mbianka

smj said:


> Don't you single hand across oceans?
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Yes Mark does. But, he always sails with the right latitude.


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## Minnewaska

mbianka said:


> Including Riley and Elyana.


Since Outremer is taking lease payments from the vlog revenue, which is giving exposure to their product, I have to believe they are actively involved in production, editing, creative or just content pressure.



> I find that Riley is strangely silent about what's going on aboard. Elyana a little less so but, still not as informative or consistant as Nikki. I don't usually follow the LaVagabonde vlog and certainly don't give them any money. Wonder if he has only been reporting to their Patereons on a regular basis or is just wanting for this passage to be over ASAP.


Riley was never the social media hound, that was always Elayna, who is undoubtedly consumed by caring for a 1 yr old baby in 19 ft seas. :eek


----------



## Ninefingers

Minnewaska said:


> I assume you mean you _couldn't_ care less.... :wink
> 
> Still don't understand why you keep saying so. Do people show up at activities you enjoy and repeatedly announce how much they dislike or disapprove of it? Was that your last experience at the opera?


I just want to say that I don't like the opera. It may be okay for some, but I don't get it, so I won't be giving my money to it. Also, snowboarding, I don't like it. Also, someone named Jerry at the marina. I don't like him. Also, my dog, right now I don't like him, but that may change shortly. Oh, yes I like him again. Dogs...


----------



## Ninefingers

mbianka said:


> Including Riley and Elyana.  I find that Riley is strangely silent about what's going on aboard. Elyana a little less so but, still not as informative or consistant as Nikki. I don't usually follow the LaVagabonde vlog and certainly don't give them any money. Wonder if he has only been reporting to their Patereons on a regular basis or is just wanting for this passage to be over ASAP.


I would imagine they are saving the story for a video. One that I will definitely watch btw, even though I haven't watched since they switched to the cat.


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## RegisteredUser

Good and better are the catchers..subjective
Buy your own ticket
Hopefully, enjoy the ride


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## RegisteredUser

Youre trying to equate both, i think
Im not sure why
Justify risks?

Different fruits...


----------



## Rezz

Locked pending mod review.

Members, please remember... 'tis the season of thanks, and not the season for personal attacks.


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

Thank you to the folks who reported posts in this thread.

37 posts deleted (a record for modern times!)

2 members banned until they can read the rules

https://www.sailnet.com/forums/sailnet-faq/101410-sailnet-terms-conditions-aka-forum-rules.html

Within those rules is the nice, newish one

NO TROLLING!

which is nice next to the No Personal Attack rules and ... chipped in stone... attack me personally and theres a Narwal spike at the ready 

Now back to the main program.

Mark


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## MarkofSeaLife

Brusk wind. and chilli too....


----------



## Minnewaska

Looks like a missed a melee. 

SLV estimating landfall in the next day or so? 10 deg west is getting close.


----------



## mbianka

Maybe the next to last post from on board by Nikki Henderson. Some parts may need to be translated from the British understated language. 

*Day 20

After a day sailing east, we reaped the rewards at midnight and turned to starboard onto a course (145°) straight for Lisbon.

The previous 12 hours had been painful. As forecast, around lunchtime the wind shifted east of north so we started smashing upwind - gaining headway east. I think I actually gained air in my bunk a number of times during my afternoon nap! Lenny and Elayna relocated to the saloon as they couldn't sleep down low - it was all a bit chaotic! We reefed down heavily at dusk, and thankfully so. It's been blowing 30-40 knots all night, and it's still going!

But at midnight it all became worth it for we gained about 15 degrees wider wind angle (this generally improves comfort, safety and speed) and the boat smoothed out. We can now say "only a day left"!

That's both sad and exciting. But the sense of achievement will start to seep in - there is nothing quite like arriving somewhere and looking behind you and going "woah 3000 miles that way is America and we worked for every mile!"

Life yesterday - well it's the 1st December so Svante and Greta kept in the Christmas theme with cinnamon oatmeal (porridge). We listened to a lot of Florence and the Machine whilst Elayna and I reminisced fun times at festivals. We have almost finished all our fresh food - so excellent provisioning Elayna. Actually some credit due - we all said we have honestly not wanted for anything - it's been amazing (apart from when the tea ran out...!)

It can be hard as you approach a destination after so long at sea. Things are probably a little tense onboard. Just the anticipation of getting there really. The knowledge that we nearly can have a little space and privacy makes the boat feel a little smaller. The reality of 'real life' stuff like emails and bills and so on looms on the horizon. Land life starts to integrate with sea life. For Riley and I it means we have to be extra vigilant not to make mistakes or get too caught up in getting there. Just keep doing what we have done - safely, calmly - not let emotions drive any decisions - and we will arrive when we arrive. But yes - we are excited - very!!*


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## MarkofSeaLife

My respect for this unknown entity, Nikki Henderson, has risen to another height with this post. And her writing is excellent.

The last paragraph is a movie in itself... or a Producers Dream for Big Brother. I re-read it about 3 times looking between every line. For those contemplating their first long passage (in the right season!) should print that paragraph off and stick it to the fridge.

"we will arrive when we arrive". A pearl of wisdom.


Mark


----------



## Minnewaska

Weightlessness in one’s bunk is far from simply uncomfortable. I would seriously worry about breaking something. 

If there is anything to read between the lines, they want this over. Who wouldn’t.


----------



## midwesterner

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Peas.
> 
> There was something else I've cooked that's stupid.... Something round. Meat balls? Brussel Sprouts?....
> Ahhhh more simple than that: sausages.
> Cooked up a plate full and lost them on the floor in 5 seconds


How about meat balls smashed flat, and sausage patties, rather than sausage links? A meat ball sliced in half won't roll but one turn. 
(And I'm not even an engineer.)


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

midwesterner said:


> How about meat balls smashed flat, and sausage patties, rather than sausage links? A meat ball sliced in half won't roll but one turn.
> )And I'm not even an engineer.)


Maybe... but I defy you to think so clearly in a big sea :grin :grin

Mark


----------



## midwesterner

Minnewaska said:


> Weightlessness in one's bunk is far from simply uncomfortable. I would seriously worry about breaking something.
> 
> If there is anything to read between the lines, they want this over. Who wouldn't.


I'm not reading it that way. Riley and Nikki are true adventurers. With a couple of days to recover, and re-provision, I think they'd be ready to go again. I know that feeling from my wilderness excursions.

Nikki wrote: "We can now say 'only a day left'!

That's *both sad and exciting*. But *the sense of achievement will start to seep in* - there is *nothing quite like arriving somewhere and looking behind you* and going "woah 3000 miles that way is America *and we worked for every mile*!"

I have felt those feelings after coming back from some of my most arduous adventures. My greatest reference for this feeling is backpacking. There have been trips during which, I thought, "I can't wait to get off this mountain and get back to civilization. My shoulders are sore. My legs are sore. It's rained almost the entire trip. I'm wet. I'm cold. I'm so sick of freeze dried backpacking meals. I can't wait for this trip to be over". Four hours later, I've had a hot shower, and ate a good meal. Then I might be driving on the highway, or someone has dragged me to a mall, and all I can think of, as I look back at the clouds ringing the mountain peak is, "God I'd give anything to be back on that mountain right now, sitting in my tent, in the rain, making hot cups of tea on my little cook stove, in the vestibule".


----------



## mbianka

midwesterner said:


> I'm not reading it that way. Riley and Nikki are true adventurers. With a couple of days to recover, and re-provision, I think they'd be ready to go again. I know that feeling from my wilderness excursions.
> 
> Nikki wrote: "We can now say 'only a day left'!
> 
> That's *both sad and exciting*. But *the sense of achievement will start to seep in* - there is *nothing quite like arriving somewhere and looking behind you* and going "woah 3000 miles that way is America *and we worked for every mile*!"
> 
> I have felt those feelings after coming back from some of my most arduous adventures. My greatest reference for this feeling is backpacking. There have been trips during which, I thought, "I can't wait to get off this mountain and get back to civilization. My shoulders are sore. My legs are sore. It's rained almost the entire trip. I'm wet. I'm cold. I'm so sick of freeze dried backpacking meals. I can't wait for this trip to be over". Four hours later, I've had a hot shower, and ate a good meal. Then I might be driving on the highway, or someone has dragged me to a mall, and all I can think of, as I look back at the clouds ringing the mountain peak is, "God I'd give anything to be back on that mountain right now, sitting in my tent, in the rain, making hot cups of tea on my little cook stove, in the vestibule".


I think that goes for any trip one makes away from the normal hustle and bustle. I did a two week coastal cruise from New York City where I was keeping my boat at Chelsea Piers. We sailed our way east out to Nantucket and back. Mostly anchoring here and there. After getting back to the dock in Manhattan we decided to head to a Mexican Restaurant for dinner. The noise level was so disturbing after the weeks of quiet solitude of anchorages and the sound waves on the hull we could not wait to get out of there and back to the boat.

I hope the La Vagabonde crew are ready for the return to "civilization", crowds, media and the disturbance all those can create after all that time at sea. Nikki may be familiar with it but, it might be particularly jarring for Greta with her mental issues. I would hope they have a day or two of downtime to decompress and to get ready at the dock before the hoopla begins but, I doubt that will happen.


----------



## Barquito

mbianka said:


> I think that goes for any trip one makes away from the normal hustle and bustle. I did a two week coastal cruise from New York City where I was keeping my boat at Chelsea Piers. We sailed our way east out to Nantucket and back. Mostly anchoring here and there. After getting back to the dock in Manhattan we decided to head to a Mexican Restaurant for dinner. The noise level was so disturbing after the weeks of quiet solitude of anchorages and the sound waves on the hull we could not wait to get out of there and back to the boat.
> 
> I hope the La Vagabonde crew are ready for the return to "civilization", crowds, media and the disturbance all those can create after all that time at sea. Nikki may be familiar with it but, it might be particularly *jarring for Greta* with her mental issues. I would hope they have a day or two of downtime to decompress and to get ready at the dock before the hoopla begins but, I doubt that will happen.


It may be jarring, but, I think she has a bit of experience with crowds, media, etc. She has been on the cover of Time, nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize, and spoken in front of the United Nations.


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

> Weightlessness in one's bunk is far from simply uncomfortable. I would seriously worry about breaking something.


Is breaking a 1 year old baby when it's thrown weightlessly around a bunk like a stuffed, plush, teddy bear 'breaking something'?

I sure don't give a hot damn about Nikki or Rileys resiliance... But babies and 16 year olds don't come cheap to replace but are easy broken.

Anyway, in a few hours they will have done it. All of them. But this does not mean the November North Atlantic "Season" is now open. These folks had a great boat, great sailors and Neptune's favor. Others, their wife, their baby may not be so... A l i v e


----------



## mstern

boatpoker said:


> Unfortunately USCG changed how they keep HIN/MIC records about ten years ago. They now routinely reissue old MIC's (the first three characters) to new builders when a previous owner of the MIC goes defunct. They have always done this but they used to also publish the history of MIC's which they no longer do.
> 
> This has rendered their website useless to many old boat researchers.


Hmmm. Methinks your post is attached to the wrong thread...


----------



## mbianka

Barquito said:


> It may be jarring, but, I think she has a bit of experience with crowds, media, etc. She has been on the cover of Time, nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize, and spoken in front of the United Nations.


Maybe. It's one thing when you are use to your handlers shuffling you about or your doing your normal day to day life thing. But, after staring at sea for twenty one days and you come back to the noise of the crowd and city plus other demands like interviews it might be too much to soon. We'll soon see.


----------



## boatpoker

mstern said:


> Hmmm. Methinks your post is attached to the wrong thread...


ooops ! LOL.
Thanks


----------



## RegisteredUser

Plenty of time on the boat to be well prepped
Should play her part well, as planned


----------



## mbianka

Nikki Henderson's final thoughts?

Reflections from the North Atlantic:

For what feels like the first time in the entire journey, we are pointing directly towards Lisbon. We have 100 NM left to run before we can officially announce ‘mission complete’. The mission being - to safely sail Greta to Europe in time for her to attend the COP25 climate conference in Madrid.

Riley and I have spoken many times this trip about the ‘mission’. About feeling like we are now part of something significant. Like this crossing had real purpose beyond the normal “go from point ‘a’ to point ‘b’” which of course, whilst so simple, is one of the true beauties of travelling by sea: purpose.

Reading back through my messages from - unbelievably - only 23 days ago, we were discussing whether I would be the best person to help him and Elayna with the trip. I wrote to him and advised he make whatever decision was best for their safety - for there was “something bigger at stake than any of us”. I ... we ... felt a pull to work together for this bigger ‘thing’. There were good reasons to choose someone else - for example, the fact that I had to fly was not ideal considering what the trip represented, even though I did buy carbon offsets. What ultimately brought us together was the pull of the adventure, yes, but also a deeper common interest - a shared purpose ...

We have had many conversations on-board about the climate emergency - about how bleak the situation is. There have been some heated discussions too - is it too late? Should we still hope? Can we feel positive? Is it constructive to be afraid? To name a few.

Every discussion for me has been informative, and interesting. I’ve learned in much greater depth about the issues at hand - and had some ideas about how to contribute to fixing them. This was one reason I agreed to be part of this and support the crew - so in my view a successful 3 weeks!

One of my favourite conversations was with Svante and Greta yesterday. We were considering how the sailing trip that we have just done - a voyage that Greta decided was necessary for her to take - is so symbolic. On departing the USA we sacrificed any control or strict agenda. We surrendered to the ocean and to Mother Nature. We relied on science - the weather forecast - to guide us. We supported science with our own instinct for survival. We gained a unique perspective of how small we are in this big world. We compromised many of at least a Westerner’s life luxuries - plenty of food, running water, fast internet access - to name a few. Despite this, we are arriving feeling richer and more fulfilled than we left.

Reflecting on what this trip was about - the bigger ‘mission’- this conversation feels extremely relevant.

Whilst it could be misinterpreted this way, this trip was not about telling people what to do, or how to live. It was not about Greta or any of us travelling in the most sustainable way possible. If it was, there were probably slightly better options - although none perfect. There may have been skippers who could have joined the boat in two days without flying. There may have been boats without a diesel engine as a back up for power. There may have been vessels that could monitor their carbon footprint more closely.

This trip was about the bigger mission. It was for us to enable Greta - one of our influencers - our role models - to travel in the way that she felt was most in line with the youth climate movement message: To highlight the need for big structural change to fight the climate emergency. To make the point that there isn’t a sustainable way to travel yet, and there needs to be.

‘Big structural changes’ - no one knows exactly what that will entail. But I think it’s so beautiful that just by choosing to sail across the Atlantic, we demonstrated that it is possible to adopt ‘big structural changes’ into our lives - even if just for three weeks. These changes surely correspond with some of the changes necessary to solve the climate crisis: trusting science, setting aside differences and working together, sacrificing some of life‘s indulgences, surrendering control, compromising, staying optimistic - finding a shared sense of purpose.

By sailing across the Atlantic we have shown what it is possible to achieve if you work with nature, and not against her.

In making it to Lisbon by the power of the wind, we have in a small way, contributed to the youth climate movement. We had ‘walked the walk’ and ‘talked the talk’ so to speak. Perhaps that was our shared purpose after all … ?

It has been a privilege to have helped Riley and Elayna sail Greta and her father safely to Europe, and ultimately to her family and her home. Being part of this project is something I’ll remember for the rest of my life. It’s been an opportunity to deepen my understanding of the climate emergency; to make five new friends; and best of all, to enjoy and share the purity, the perspective, and the peace that sailing across an ocean provides.
Image may contain: ocean, sky, outdoor, nature and water


----------



## mbianka

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Is breaking a 1 year old baby when it's thrown weightlessly around a bunk like a stuffed, plush, teddy bear 'breaking something'?
> 
> I sure don't give a hot damn about Nikki or Rileys resiliance... But babies and 16 year olds don't come cheap to replace but are easy broken.
> 
> Anyway, in a few hours they will have done it. All of them. But this does not mean the November North Atlantic "Season" is now open. These folks had a great boat, great sailors and Neptune's favor. Others, their wife, their baby may not be so... A l i v e


Riley finally posts a more detailed report of the passage if some what catatonically 

*"Apparent wind speed, sea state, how does she "feel" in the water, are the crew comfortable, check the sky, how much sail do we have up, how much should we, when is the latest weather update, true wind speed, when does the wind clock?, more main or more jib? Apparent wind speed, sea state, how does she "feel" in the water, are the crew comfortable, check the sky, how much sail do we have up, how much should we, when is the latest weather update, true wind speed, when does the wind clock?, more main or more jib? Apparent wind speed, sea state, how does she "feel" in the water, are the crew comfortable, check the sky, how much sail do we have up, how much should we, when is the latest weather update, true wind speed, when does the wind clock?, more main or more jib?"

*


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## midwesterner

mbianka said:


> I hope the La Vagabonde crew are ready for the return to "civilization", crowds, media and the disturbance all those can create after all that time at sea. Nikki may be familiar with it but, it might be particularly jarring for Greta with her mental issues.


Greta has been reported to have Asperger's Syndrome. That exists in a range from mild to moderate to severe. She appears to have mild to moderate Asperger's. It does not necessarily come with social anxiety. In fact, it is very likely that you have interacted, numerous times in your life, with people who have mild Asperger's, and you have not known it. She has chosen to conduct a public campaign to make people more aware of a climate crisis. She is driven by her concern. I'm sure she'll be fine.


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## Minnewaska

mbianka said:


> Nikki Henderson's final thoughts?.......


I'm very happy they seem to be safe and have/will make landfall.

Reading this poetic recap, I couldn't help but think how religious it really is. All the emotional rationalizations for a life threatening passage in the name of a cause, engrandizing their impact on said cause and feeling spiritual. If one is in the choir, they are reading it and saying amen. The parallel to religion is strong.

Science is firmly entrenched in the measurement of climate change and it's contributing factors, including human carbon emission. What we are going to do about seems predominantly to be religious. Sacrifice, change, follow the spiritual leaders. Little to no scientific evidence this will work, but do so anyway, as it proves one is faithful.

I'll stick to the science. I accept climate is changing. I understand we need to adapt to a different future. This passage has only provided evidence to me of the irrational side of CC. Most thankfully, my point wasn't proven by the death of a 1 yr old baby.


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## mbianka

midwesterner said:


> Greta has been reported to have Asperger's Syndrome. That exists in a range from mild to moderate to severe. She appears to have mild to moderate Asperger's. It does not necessarily come with social anxiety. In fact, it is very likely that you have interacted, numerous times in your life, with people who have mild Asperger's, and you have not known it. She has chosen to conduct a public campaign to make people more aware of a climate crisis. She is driven by her concern. I'm sure she'll be fine.


I have interacted with someone with Asperger's. It was a salesman. We were in a discussion when he suddenly left and proceeded to go out in a dingy and disappeared for about twenty minutes. I would have thought it strange but, he did mention his Asperger's. She also has OCD and selective mutism.


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## MarkofSeaLife

midwesterner said:


> Greta has been reported to have Asperger's Syndrome.


I 'fact checked' and yes, Gretas parents have stated she has Aspergers.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greta_Thunberg

Notwithstanding this, why has she not appeared in Nikki's posts as helping? No references to "Greta stood Watch" or Greta helped change sails, or did deck work, or steered etc etc.

I saw a group photo and she looks very small compared to the group. Really like a little child. 
But couldn't she start learning what she advocates as a preferred method of transport? 
Even with Asperger's isn't 3 weeks under the tutorlidge of Nikki and Riley time enough to get anyone actively involved?

When I took 2 girls on my past trans-atlanic neither had been on a boat before... But within 3 days both were doing full solo watches. (OK one did need, ummmm, constant supervision :| ) Every watch they did 20 minutes hand steering. 
They both went on to working full time on Superyachts.

I can assure you one appeared only slightly above the rank of incurably un-teachable, but after 3 weeks was a highly skilled as fish bait, and able to be left alone on midnight watch without waking the Skipper.

On the SLV passage there seems to be a news blackout on her, and her father's, sailing contribution... Or any contribution except for her father's coffee making.

No doubt I will be told I am totally wrong.

The BS is floating about chin level on a 7 foot giant.


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## mbianka

This morning finds them in the straits leading to Lisbon. A check of the boat shows a speed of 2.2 knots. Apparently they are sailing and not using the engines. At the request of Greta and frustration of Riley? I wonder. When you've been speeding along at 9 knots or more for weeks must seem a bit slow. Lots more traffic than they've been use to also. It might be a long slog since the tide is going out and low tide is not until 1:28pm. But, they are in the home stretch
Here is a screen shot from Marine Traffic. The black dotted box is La Vagabonde.


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## Minnewaska

mbianka said:


> This morning finds them in the straits leading to Lisbon. A check of the boat shows a speed of 2.2 knots. Apparently they are sailing and not using the engines. At the request of Greta and frustration of Riley? I wonder. When you've been speeding along at 9 knots or more for weeks must seem a bit slow. Lots more traffic than they've been use to also. It might be a long slog since the tide is going out and low tide is not until 1:28pm. But, they are in the home stretch
> Here is a screen shot from Marine Traffic. The black dotted box is La Vagabonde.


Who knows, but I can imagine a PR opportunity and welcoming committee. The choir would come out in full force. For appearances sake, they couldn't motor. Religious objections.


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## mbianka

Minnewaska said:


> Who knows, but I can imagine a PR opportunity and welcoming committee. The choir would come out in full force. For appearances sake, they couldn't motor. Religious objections.


Thanks to the Internet and You Tube we can watch the Greta Show LIVE from Lisbon:


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## mbianka

OMG They've dropped the sails and are using the diesel engines! Did not expect to see that. The media awaits but, I guess won't wait forever or maybe they just want to get back on land ASAP!


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## Minnewaska

mbianka said:


> Thanks to the Internet and You Tube we can watch the Greta Show LIVE from Lisbon:....


I could not get it to stream. One shot begins then streaming stalls. The one shot does show them motoring, with a parade of followers.


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## mbianka

Minnewaska said:


> I could not get it to stream. One shot begins then streaming stalls. The one shot does show them motoring, with a parade of followers.


Yeah it was coming and going. It did become stable for awhile after they got to the dock. They got some shots of Gretta getting her school strike sign ready and some hugs by Nikki to her father. Looked like her mother also came on board at the dock too.


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## mbianka

Live feed has been replaced by a four minute video of them mostly under sail.


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## midwesterner

mbianka said:


> OMG They've dropped the sails and are using the diesel engines! Did not expect to see that. The media awaits but, I guess won't wait forever or maybe they just want to get back on land ASAP!


Oh my gosh. nobody associated with this group ever said that they were looking to never use an engine. It's about REDUCING reliance on carbon emitting devices. All of us who sail reduce the use of fuel. Greta rode in trains, buses and cars while she was in New York. I've not heard one person call for the abolishment of internal combustion engines.

Greta has been successful in getting kids the world over, to think about our impact on the environment. If more kids of her generation ride bikes more often, reduce the use of plastics, recycle more aluminium cans, and learn to sail, how is any of that a bad thing. You'll keep doing whatever you do.

And, if a larger percentage of your electricity starts getting generated by wind, solar or tide generators, instead of coal fired power plants, what does it matter to the people who prefer to ignore environmental problems, as long as the lights come on when they flip the switch.

Now, just to make this spiritual, I offer a prayer to Anemoi.


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## MacBlaze

This stream is the Spanish version I think. Riley and Nikki talk at around 4:07:00

Seems that they lost one of their cool helm chairs to a wave


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## bigdogandy

Well, my congratulations to S/V Vagabonde and her captain & crew for a successful voyage and safe landfall. Hopefully they all get some rest before their next adventures begin.

This was an entertaining and educational event to follow, from many different aspects, to say the least!


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## Minnesail

Just a thought. Could one of the mods change the subject to the correct spelling?

I was just thinking that it would make this thread easier to find if someone is doing a search on:
La Vagabonde


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## mbianka

MacBlaze said:


> This stream is the Spanish version I think. Riley and Nikki talk at around 4:07:00
> 
> Seems that they lost one of their cool helm chairs to a wave


Lucky it was only the helm chair and not one of the crew.


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## midwesterner

mbianka said:


> This morning finds them in the straits leading to Lisbon. A check of the boat shows a speed of 2.2 knots. *Apparently they are sailing and not using the engines. At the request of Greta and frustration of Riley?* I wonder. When you've been speeding along at 9 knots or more for weeks must seem a bit slow.


No, I don't think that is a reasonable assumption. In their past videos Riley has talked about how he likes the times when they don't have to be in a hurry and they can sail along, even if the winds are light. I think he is proud of the fact that he taught himself to sail, and how much he has advanced his sailing skills in the past few years. In watching their videos, I have come to believe that he is a consummate yachtsman. He likes the challenge of sailing, and advancing his skills.

When I go sailing, I often challenge myself, by trying to see how long I can go without firing up the iron Jenny. I'm not anti engine, and it's not a religious thing. I like to challenge my light air sailing skills and I like to challenge my skills sailing into the wind.

I'd be pleased to sail Greta and her dad somewhere, and play games of Yahtzee with them. I'd say, "Hey kid, I understand that you like to reduce the burning of fossil fuels, and find alternative ways to travel. That's cool. As a sailor, I accept the challenge. I'd like to see if we can make it all the way with wind power alone. I can't promise that we won't have to fire up the engine, but we'll see how far we can go without".

In fact, I imagine that Riley and Greta may have had a conversation very much like that.


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## mbianka

midwesterner said:


> No, I don't think that is a reasonable assumption. In their past videos Riley has talked about how he likes the times when they don't have to be in a hurry and they can sail along, even if the winds are light. I think he is proud of the fact that he taught himself to sail, and how much he has advanced his sailing skills in the past few years. In watching their videos, I have come to believe that he is a consummate yachtsman. He likes the challenge of sailing, and advancing his skills.
> 
> When I go sailing, I often challenge myself, by trying to see how long I can go without firing up the iron Jenny. I'm not anti engine, and it's not a religious thing. I like to challenge my light air sailing skills and I like to challenge my skills sailing into the wind.
> 
> I'd be pleased to sail Greta and her dad somewhere, and play games of Yahtzee with them. I'd say, "Hey kid, I understand that you like to reduce the burning of fossil fuels, and find alternative ways to travel. That's cool. As a sailor, I accept the challenge. I'd like to see if we can make it all the way with wind power alone. I can't promise that we won't have to fire up the engine, but we'll see how far we can go without".
> 
> In fact, I imagine that Riley and Greta may have had a conversation very much like that.


Interesting about Riley's use of fuel. Since the latest La Vagabonde video has Riley having a boat come out of Montauk to deliver some diesel because they were worried about having enough fuel on La Vagabonde to make it into Montauk. Either he did not fuel up before starting the 1,000 mile passage or they burned a lot of fuel getting to Montauk. Their videos don't say how that situation happened.

Wonder if we will see some of those on board discussions in videos? Yes the discussions on board would indeed have been interesting. Especially since Riley made his initial money to buy a boat by working on Oil Rigs. Nikki makes mention of some the conversations they had on board which seems to indicate there was some disagreements _"We have had many conversations on-board about the climate emergency - about how bleak the situation is. There have been some heated discussions too - is it too late? Should we still hope? Can we feel positive? Is it constructive to be afraid? To name a few." 
_

Since Riley as you say like many sailors hates to put on the engine and would rather sail in light winds. I would expect he might look into Electric Propulsion on their next Cat or maybe a retrofit. It would fit in well with his sailing modes. I expect him to pay a visit to Outremer since they are in Europe with some of the Catamaran designs he has been working on driving Elyna crazy talking about them. Or at the very least get a new helm seat to replace the one that got washed over board on this trip


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## midwesterner

mbianka said:


> Nikki makes mention of some the conversations they had on board which seems to indicate there was some disagreements _"We have had many conversations on-board about the climate emergency - about how bleak the situation is. There have been some heated discussions too - is it too late? Should we still hope? Can we feel positive? Is it constructive to be afraid? To name a few."
> _


We're only speculating, of course, but I'd wonder if the disagreements might have been across generations. I remember being Greta's age and worrying about the Viet Nam War, the deaths of people of my generation, the environmental impact of Napalm and Agent Orange, the smog that regularly blanketed L.A., the fish kills that were washing up on the shores of the Great Lakes, and the fire that burned on the Cuyahoga River. I was convinced that the older generation had mismanaged things and the world looked doomed. I joined environmental groups and campaigns. I sometimes thought that God would be justified in wiping the human race off the face of the planet, leaving it to wildlife.

Fifty years later, I have the benefit of age and experience, to know that we survived, and that the human race continues to muddle along. I'm still concerned about the environment, and pollution, and I try to lead a life that, as much as possible, doesn't add horribly to the problem, and maybe adds to the solution a little. I'm glad for kids like Greta, and I applaud her effort. I don't see that her passion and concern does anything but good. She has found a platform that has other's of her generation thinking, and considering options. I'm more concerned about Kardashians, and kids of Jersey Shore, who seem more focused on fame and fortune, and promoting wasteful and selfish mass consumerism.



mbianka said:


> Since Riley as you say like many sailors hates to put on the engine and would rather sail in light winds. I would expect he might look into Electric Propulsion on their next Cat or maybe a retrofit. It would fit in well with his sailing modes. I expect him to pay a visit to Outremer since they are in Europe with some of the Catamaran designs he has been working on driving Elyna crazy talking about them. Or at the very least get a new helm seat to replace the one that got washed over board on this trip


I imagine that Riley understands enough about engineering, to know that electric propulsion is not realistic for the worldwide cruising that he does. Plus, now that he is a dad, I imagine that he doesn't want to risk times when they might find themselves stuck out at sea, waiting for either the wind to blow, or the sun to recharge his batteries.


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## SanderO

midwesterner said:


> I imagine that Riley understands enough about engineering, to know that electric propulsion is not realistic for the worldwide cruising that he does. Plus, now that he is a dad, I imagine that he doesn't want to risk times when they might find themselves stuck out at sea, waiting for either the wind to blow, or the sun to recharge his batteries.


Seems like a cat offers a large footprint to collect solar power. If they are not motoring a lot and have a genset to charge when absolutely needed... why not engineer an electric propulsion catamaran?

Stuck out where? How much fuel should he carry? Does he carry?


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## mbianka

midwesterner said:


> We're only speculating, of course, but I'd wonder if the disagreements might have been across generations. I remember being Greta's age and worrying about the Viet Nam War, the deaths of people of my generation, the environmental impact of Napalm and Agent Orange, the smog that regularly blanketed L.A., the fish kills that were washing up on the shores of the Great Lakes, and the fire that burned on the Cuyahoga River. I was convinced that the older generation had mismanaged things and the world looked doomed. I joined environmental groups and campaigns. I sometimes thought that God would be justified in wiping the human race off the face of the planet, leaving it to wildlife.
> 
> Fifty years later, I have the benefit of age and experience, to know that we survived, and that the human race continues to muddle along. I'm still concerned about the environment, and pollution, and I try to lead a life that, as much as possible, doesn't add horribly to the problem, and maybe adds to the solution a little. I'm glad for kids like Greta, and I applaud her effort. I don't see that her passion and concern does anything but good. She has found a platform that has other's of her generation thinking, and considering options. I'm more concerned about Kardashians, and kids of Jersey Shore, who seem more focused on fame and fortune, and promoting wasteful and selfish mass consumerism.


Yes funny how the Earth seems to survive and actually seems to get better. Despite all the Cassandra like warnings of the earths demise over the years. BTW I certainly had my activist days in my youth (20's into 30's) fighting the Shoreham Nuclear plant on Long island. I did not tend to join groups having seen that things done by committees tended to be a waste of my time. I instead did my own research wrote letters to the editor, government agencies and politicians at all levels. I clipped many stories about the industry. Putting my money where my mouth was. I also bought several hundred shares of the Power Company building the plant so I could address their annual meetings. Actually turned out to be a great investment in the end too.  I even made an editorial reply on my of the local New York TV stations against the plant. I spoke at Legislative hearings. I made my arguments with facts from my research. At one hearing a pro nuclear scientist came up to me and begrudgingly mentioned I had a "killer argument". I had over two file cabinet draws of articles and other clippings. I finally burned all those papers in the fireplace two years ago. Despite all the Cassandra like warnings that the lights would go out without the nuclear plant they have remained on. Many houses now sport solar panels and the system has become more reliable.



> I imagine that Riley understands enough about engineering, to know that electric propulsion is not realistic for the worldwide cruising that he does. Plus, now that he is a dad, I imagine that he doesn't want to risk times when they might find themselves stuck out at sea, waiting for either the wind to blow, or the sun to recharge his batteries.


I disagree. Just this past summer two boats with electric propulsion auxiliary systems have crossed the Atlantic. I know of at least one EP powered Cat that has done it too. Having had an EP system on my boat since 2008 I would never go back to having a diesel engine connected to the prop. My solar panels keep the batteries topped up most of the time but, I also have a small generator for charging at anchor and extended electro sailing. But, I use it much less than I originally thought I would. It sounds as though Riley did not use the engine on the recent passage except at the beginning and end for docking. Which an EP system could easily have done too. La Vagabonde or anyboat would have done nicely on this passage with EP. Not only making fuel (energy) using wind and solar. But, could also use EP's regeneration properties using the props for charging too. Greta might even have a little smile on her face for a change.


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## mbianka

Nikki Henderson's Land Ho post:

Day 21

Land ahoy! And just like that - a new continent appears. Yellow and orange and white twinkling lights across half our horizon. More than 10 targets showing on our chart plotter. The solitude of life at sea is now over. The shift can be overwhelming. All of a sudden - there are so many stimulants - people, smells (there is really a lack of scents at sea!), sounds, noise. It’s incredible how fast it changes and how quickly we adapt again to land life - in the same way as when you head out to sea, and once the land disappears the mood changes; things slow down, get quieter and your boat universe begins.

We had quite a day yesterday. As dawn broke Elayna and I were enjoying a morning mocha when we got thrown off our feet. The waves were building. By 0800am it was blowing 40 knots and 5+ metre breaking swells were soaring into our beam - building in slow motion up up up and then lifting us high to the sky as they flowed beneath us - and then if you watched to starboard you could see them crashing down into an abyss of turquoise and white and blue water. The colours in a storm are the most impressive thing of all. Shades of blue appear that you have never seen before - bright bright blue and the darkest deepest navy in the heavy swells - and they change so quickly all the time. It’s just so hypnotic. Yesterday reminded me of a time a few years ago in the North Pacific - not as treacherous now, and nearly as beautiful.

Thankfully the conditions only peaked for a few hours. By 1000am things began to subside as they have done gradually up to now. This was a welcome relief as we had things to do. Our last lunch and last supper were served - leftovers - trying to eat all the remaining fresh food so it doesn’t go to waste. So we have all overdosed on pumpkin. We spoke about what we have missed and what we are looking forward to - I said my family and friends. It’s been particularly hard to be away this time, as everyone else onboard had someone close to them. The other things in discussion - walking, exercise, land routine, choice, a full night’s sleep, home, dogs (Greta and Svante’s).

We took some last photos of us all at sea. Our temporary family - now friends. The sea has a magical way of forming bonds between people that go so very deep. You see the best and the worst of each other. It’s unavoidable out here. The result is a deep understanding of one another - an empathetic love - respect - the faith that you have each other’s backs, and will do again if needed. The process of achieving something so great and so challenging creates a shared common ground - an experience that ties you to each other, in a way, forever.


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## SanderO

This last post reminds me of the issues about who you go to sea with for long passages. You're out there with no way of getting off and have to work together for the most part. Yet we may find ourselves with crew who turn out to be very different from what we expected. I was crew on a delivery from Caribe to LIS years ago. Skipper and one crew were fabulous. Not so for the other two. One was a skipper on another boat and the other was his female companion. Who wants to spend weeks with people who you don't care for?

I've had crew along on Shiva for several ocean passages. I recall one guy who I think said he was a sailor and a commercial Jet pilot. He was seasick most of the time! On the other hand I took fiends of friends who were sailors and were fabulous. I totally loved having them aboard and these guys became friends and some have done the passage with me several times. So maybe I was lucky. You never know.

SLV is mixed crew on a difficult mission to sail the Atlantic West to East in late November. Greta and her dad clearly are no much use as far as sailing goes. The infant is a liability of course and takes the attention of his mother who should have been able to assist in sailing. They picked up Nikki who is an experienced young strong positive person with lots of ocean miles. I doubt they did any MOB rehearsals before departing or practice setting their sails etc. I don't know what sort of preparation was done for the voyage. My impression is not much... but I have not followed the vlog. I know on my passages we did drills and have pre departure meetings and coordinated the provisioning and stowing etc. Crossing the ocean is serious business and if you have crew which you need to work together... it's best if they work well together.

What are your thoughts about crew and prep for an ocean passage?


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## mbianka

Apparently Riley at first nixed the idea of having another sailor like Nikki on board. Good thing he reconsidered IMO. How this trip came about is here (translated from Swedish): https://translate.google.com/transl...eglar-greta-en-48-fots-katamaran/&prev=search


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## Minnewaska

mbianka said:


> Apparently Riley at first nixed the idea of having another sailor like Nikki on board. Good thing he reconsidered IMO. How this trip came about is here (translated from Swedish): https://translate.google.com/transl...eglar-greta-en-48-fots-katamaran/&prev=search


The article is very interesting and clearly draws questions around Riley's inherent decision making and risk taking. Jimmy Cornell's point that babies don't make passages any less safe may be debatable, if crew need be devoted to their attention or they require medical care without being able to verbalize the actual symptoms. Yes, the baby themselves are resilient, but I think he misses the point. The real point is that they can not care for themselves and can not participate in the risk decision. I've said before, it's the parent's call in the end. That doesn't make it the right call, it just clarifies who makes the call.

Riley has a risk taking gene, which itself can be used for good. However, if you mix that gene with any complacency over your actual skills or the actual level of risk, one eventually loses the draw.

The article also make clear they were recruited for the climate angle and no doubt the publicity it would provide. This thread is evidence of the viability of their strategy.


----------



## mbianka

SanderO said:


> This last post reminds me of the issues about who you go to sea with for long passages. You're out there with no way of getting off and have to work together for the most part. Yet we may find ourselves with crew who turn out to be very different from what we expected. I was crew on a delivery from Caribe to LIS years ago. Skipper and one crew were fabulous. Not so for the other two. One was a skipper on another boat and the other was his female companion. Who wants to spend weeks with people who you don't care for?
> 
> What are your thoughts about crew and prep for an ocean passage?


I don't think you have to do a trans-Atlantic in order to have a bad experience with crew on board. Problems can occur on any trip. I had a friend who was crew on a number of trips and was excellent. We did a long trip up the Erie Canal in summer. Mast was stepped on deck and it was all motoring. After a few days in the heat and motor noise all day he got pretty grumpy and complained he missed his walks. It was not fun for either of us but, we got over it eventually.

I've long since giving up on making a trans Atlantic passage on anything smaller then the Queen Mary2 or Cargo ship.  I just don't want to be that uncomfortable and/or bored for that long. Likewise I don't want take the boat south down the Intercoastal Waterway. Though they were certainly on the list in my younger days. I still have plans to head out on the Ocean far enough away from land so I don't see it. I will go out by myself and stay out as long as please and weather window remains good. I'll avoid any grumpy or seasick crews. I'll eat when i want. I'll make sure to rest. I'll just enjoy the solitude and avoid minimize the the stress. At least that's the plan.


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## SanderO

Minni makes excellent points. My take away from the article was that this was very much a publicity driven effort. Jimmy Cornell seems to be very willing to minimize risk and has ties to Outremer.... hmmmm.

Nikki appears to be a good choice for crew and in retrospect Riley could not have done it without her.

Greta is naive and doesn't know enough about the risk. I doubt her father or her did much due diligence before signing on.

I still believe they should have had more competent crew and not done this at this time frame. While Nikki is young and strong and has good offshore experience for such a young person my sense is she too is a risk taker like many young people are. They clearly were connected to shore support the entire time with lots of weather data and that adds a margin of safety to this mission.

Like everyone, I am pleased that they arrived safe and sound. I wonder what lessons learned will be or if we will ever hear them?


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## MacBlaze

SanderO said:


> Nikki appears to be a good choice for crew and in retrospect Riley could not have done it without her.


Not picking on Sander) but comments like this always make me wonder where people get their "facts." I was a bit obsessive about this trip mostly because it seemed like the first "real" sailing Riley had done and sometimes I worry about him (conservative he ain't). So I read all the posts of the participants on multiple social media outlets, followed several threads on various forums and checked the maps twice a day. Nowhere does it state, imply or even hint at Nikki being a lynchpin in the trip's success. Do I believe she was? Yes. But that is just a guess.

I look forward to the videos to get a glimpse into what things might have been like, although I in no way believe anyone will ever get the "real" story.


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## SanderO

MacBlaze said:


> Not picking on Sander) but comments like this always make me wonder where people get their "facts." I was a bit obsessive about this trip mostly because it seemed like the first "real" sailing Riley had done and sometimes I worry about him (conservative he ain't). So I read all the posts of the participants on multiple social media outlets, followed several threads on various forums and checked the maps twice a day. Nowhere does it state, imply or even hint at Nikki being a lynchpin in the trip's success. Do I believe she was? Yes. But that is just a guess.
> 
> I look forward to the videos to get a glimpse into what things might have been like, although I in no way believe anyone will ever get the "real" story.


This will be an absurd debate. My thinking was that Ekayne had to attend to her infant and Greta had no experience... except maybe watchkeeping. Her dad is an unknown to me but again I think he was not an experienced sailor.. This would have out a tremendous burden on Riley.... AND it seems that they shared all sailing duties while the others did essentially nothing but galley.

Sailing for a few weeks single handed in those conditions is brutal. With two is a huge difference. I did a 4,000 mile delivery with one other guy and that was tiring enough and we didn't see anything over 30 knots and that was only for a squall.

I did not follow SLV and only read one article about Nikki. She seems like a great crew.


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## chef2sail

MacBlaze said:


> Not picking on Sander) but comments like this always make me wonder where people get their "facts." I was a bit obsessive about this trip mostly because it seemed like the first "real" sailing Riley had done and sometimes I worry about him (conservative he ain't). So I read all the posts of the participants on multiple social media outlets, followed several threads on various forums and checked the maps twice a day. Nowhere does it state, imply or even hint at Nikki being a lynchpin in the trip's success. Do I believe she was? Yes. But that is just a guess.
> 
> I look forward to the videos to get a glimpse into what things might have been like, although I in no way believe anyone will ever get the "real" story.


Makes me laugh....what "facts"

The is a social media blog story. There is no fact checker.

The can embellish or leave out whatever parts of the story to make them look good or to meet their agenda of selling their website. Certainly you wouldn't expect them to post or revel anything which would negatively impact their ability to make money.

The rampant speculation of what they are thinking, what their motives are, what their true relationships are is EXACTLY the forum/ story they are hoping to weave. It will keep their "fans"/ patrons involved and keep their money flowing.

By the looks of the response here they are achieving exactly what their goals are. After all all these reality shows really have this in mind. This reality show takes place on water in a sailboat. Quite unique location.


----------



## MacBlaze

chef2sail said:


> By the looks of the response here they are achieving exactly what their goals are.


I agree in principle but you (and we all) fall into the same trap. No one has any idea what their "goals" really are, so stating it as a "fact" is a bit specious.

The glass half-empty people assume they are in it for the big bucks and will stop at nothing to manipulate their audience into buying into their story and emptying tier pocketbooks. The glass half-full will assume that they are in it to sail, live and enjoy themselves and share it while hopefully making a bit of cash along the way-in this case a nice chunk of change.

I worked in marketing for years. I know all about manipulation and yet I still like to look at things from the half-full perspective. I will take a lot of it at face value until it is proven otherwise. Why not? It is more enjoyable and hurts me not one iota.


----------



## chef2sail

MacBlaze said:


> I agree in principle but you (and we all) fall into the same trap. No one has any idea what their "goals" really are, so stating it as a "fact" is a bit specious.
> 
> The glass half-empty people assume they are in it for the big bucks and will stop at nothing to manipulate their audience into buying into their story and emptying tier pocketbooks. The glass half-full will assume that they are in it to sail, live and enjoy themselves and share it while hopefully making a bit of cash along the way-in this case a nice chunk of change.
> 
> I worked in marketing for years. I know all about manipulation and yet I still like to look at things from the half-full perspective. I will take a lot of it at face value until it is proven otherwise. Why not? It is more enjoyable and hurts me not one iota.


Sorry, I won't bite that Apple.

Nicely positioning your argument as a half full and a positive outlook, vs others looking at it as half empty therefore a negative outlook is self effacing. It isn't about positive or negative.

I'm a generally a very positive in attributing attributes to things. I See no altruistic idealistic attributes to this La Vagebond phenomenah. It reads like a reality show without the warts.

It's is achieving its desired results of raising money , sponsored by a high end catamaran boat builder allow them to travel in a vessel which the couple could not even begin to afford normally. There appears to be a sophisticated media production in order to project this " show" in the most positive way to get sponsors . Sponsors in this can be hits reading about the Outreamer . It's a smooth well oiled marketing production which I am sure you can recognize. Of course having this on a sailing blog like SailNet is I am sure part of their plan.

For some SN it is red meat allowing them to project their opinions and experiences in building the reality part attributing thought processes of the cast members and debating what they are thinking. Living vicariously through their voyage , knowing very little factually what was happening on board except some tidbits broadcast by the "cast " members.

There are no "Debbie downer" moments published, but why would they as it would take away from the positive marketing image. Hard to believe in over a three week period of time everyone had a kum-by-a passage.

No value judgement as this is par for the course as to what a segment of the population sees as entertainment in today's world.

Think of how different the commentary would have been has MarK Sea of Life or Sander O , or Tempest had been on this voyage and HONESTY writing about it without worrry of a sponsorship. Now that would be real to life I would bet. Now that would be a story worth reading and learning from.


----------



## MacBlaze

chef2sail said:


> It's is achieving its desired results of raising money , sponsored by a high end catamaran boat builder allow them to travel in a vessel which the couple could not even begin to afford normally. There appears to be a sophisticated media production in order to project this " show" in the most positive way to get sponsors . Sponsors in this can be hits reading about the Outreamer . It's a smooth well oiled marketing production which I am sure you can recognize. Of course having this on a sailing blog like SailNet is I am sure part of their plan.





chef2sail said:


> Makes me laugh....what "facts"


You really don't see how much your own ideology is creating "facts" out of thin air?

You can wish all you want that this is a "smooth well oiled marketing production" but it is still within the realm of possibility its two savvy young 'uns who were at the right place at the right time and cashed in.

Seriously, Riley just doesnt strike me as that savvy. You should read his "book." I don't think you can fake that kind of naivety. :grin


----------



## Ninefingers

Regarding not being able to make the trip without Nikki, Riley admitted to such in his statement ashore. Also said that having her was like having 3 extra crew. So he was clearly grateful for her abilities.


----------



## midwesterner

MacBlaze said:


> Not picking on Sander) but comments like this always make me wonder where people get their "facts." I was a bit obsessive about this trip mostly *because it seemed like the first "real" sailing Riley had done *and sometimes I worry about him (conservative he ain't). So I read all the posts of the participants on multiple social media outlets, followed several threads on various forums and checked the maps twice a day. Nowhere does it state, imply or even hint at Nikki being a lynchpin in the trip's success. Do I believe she was? Yes. But that is just a guess.


I don't think that's accurate, that this is the first "real" sailing Riley has done . I have followed most of their videos during their days sailing their Beneteau, before they got the catamaran. They crossed oceans, and did some pretty serious sailing.

There was one episode in which Elayna flew home to tend to some family matters, and Riley sailed single-handed back to Australia from, I believe some place in Southeast Asia, possibly Indonesia, through a storm. Riley posted a video afterward in which he apologized for not having any video of the actual sailing time through the storm. He explained that he was much too busy sailing through the storm to have time to set up any cameras or worry about filming. He cautioned their viewers not to conclude that sailing is always like they had depicted in their videos, because they often did not have time to make videos of the most extreme periods of sailing. In his processing of the single handed storm passage, Riley said that it was a challenging passage, and he wouldn't care to do one like that again, single handed.

Some people on here, who apparently have not watched many of their videos, seem to have the impression that Elayna has just sat around in her swimsuit, cooked, and played with babies. Before they got the catamaran, and before they had Lenny, Elayna took her share of watches, during which she sailed through some pretty extreme weather, while Riley took his sleep shift. She did sometimes mention on the video, waking him up early from his sleep shift, to consult with him about changing wind conditions and possible need for sail changes.
From watching the videos, I have been pretty impressed with what a brave and capable sailor Elayna is. She's a pretty tough woman, for her size.

I think the reason that Elayna put in less time at the helm, on this trip, has nothing to do with a lack of ability to handle it. In the past videos of their mono-hull sailing adventures, I've been impressed with Alayna's commitment to being an equal sailing partner to Riley, one who has certainly put in her time on watch. I think it probably has more to do with the luxury that they had Nikki there to split watches with Riley, leaving Alayna free to fill her much more important role as "Mum".


----------



## chef2sail

MacBlaze said:


> You really don't see how much your own ideology is creating "facts" out of thin air?
> 
> You can wish all you want that this is a "smooth well oiled marketing production" but it is still within the realm of possibility its two savvy young 'uns who were at the right place at the right time and cashed in.
> 
> Seriously, Riley just doesnt strike me as that savvy. You should read his "book." I don't think you can fake that kind of naivety. :grin


Course you are negating the possibility the chief sponsor , Outreamer, has nothing to do with their blogs. And yes you can fake naivety. Obviously that has charmed you.

Everyone's ideology colors their own perceptions, yours included. Your presentation as two groups " half empty" and " half full" represents that is your fact. I don't subscribe to that . It reflects a negative and a positive.

While I don't have a marketing background as you do, my masters in psychology has suggested to me that in the hierarchy of needs the need to be secure is important. To do that they have to eat and house themselves.

Yes the " two young uns" May have been at the right place at the right time, but yes they have learned and are getting assistance how to maximize that in today's world .


----------



## MacBlaze

midwesterner said:


> I don't think that's accurate, that this is the first "real" sailing Riley has done . I have followed most of their videos during their days sailing their Beneteau, before they got the catamaran. They crossed oceans, and did some pretty serious sailing.


I don't discount Elayna. The fact that everyone assumes that only Nikki and Riley stood watch is one of those things that makes me go "huh." All we know is that those two did the night watches. I assume others chipped in during the day. But I don't know any more than anyone else-its one of the things I think the eventual videos will illuminate.

As to "real" sailing, I guess I was being flip. I'd get on a boat with Riley. He's put more miles on than I ever will. But I do tend to assume he is quite casual about it from watching and reading along, and this is the first time (IMHO) that he's *had* to take it seriously - as many have pointed out deadly seriously. That's all I meant.


----------



## SanderO

YIKES.

Not very many passages get anything close to the sort of "attention" that this passage has received. And to me that is precisely the message:

This was a marketing effort first and foremost.

I believe that someone(s) who have lived aboard and sailed for a number of years would undoubtedly be or become a very competent sailor(s). SLV s a business. Outremer is a business. Both do what they do for money. Most people want to enjoy their work SVA is no different.

I think it is fine for Greta to choose sail as a more eco friendly means to get from here to there. That is part of her message. Unfortunately the calendar made this decision not a sound one. I seriously doubt SLV would return to Europe at this time if there wasn't a great marketing opportunity in it. I wish they had done it with a better weather window.... even that is a feat!

We know some people like to be voyeurs for whatever reason. Many pay for peeks as they do with porn. YES YouTubes can be instructive and learning platforms. I suppose some sailing vlogs are. Don't know because I am not seeing them nor will subscribe. I can ask you guys for help and the best advice is found here.

I think this thread needs to be closed. Everything to say about this voyage has been said.

Did anyone learn anything?


----------



## MacBlaze

SanderO said:


> I think this thread needs to be closed. Everything to say about this voyage has been said.


I'm good with that. :wink

BTW Elayna just posted an instagram video of them trying to reef in a 46 knot gust. So if we did want to keep the thread going...


__
http://instagr.am/p/B5qYLayhHuc/


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## RegisteredUser

The buy in was steep.
They walked away with all the chips


----------



## Minnewaska

You don’t close threads, because one or more people think enough has been said. They should just stop attending. Threads are closed, when everyone starts arguing over stupid things, getting personal and defending their own hide. 

I’d rather continue to discuss the passage, when and if new perspective is offered. I don’t really care if you’re right or if I’m right. It’s a discussion, not a debate, with a score.


----------



## mbianka

MacBlaze said:


> I'm good with that. :wink
> 
> BTW Elayna just posted an instagram video of them trying to reef in a 46 knot gust. So if we did want to keep the thread going...
> 
> 
> __
> http://instagr.am/p/B5qYLayhHuc/


Thanks Mac. Sure did not look like fun. Even Nikki looked a little panicked and Riley looked a little stunned when he came back to the helm. Could not tell if he was attached to a safety line as he was trying to reef the sail but, it looked like a pretty precarious situation. However it looked like to me they cut in some heavy sea footage from another time. Still a good example of some of the conditions they faced. Certainly a little tease for future videos they hope to have out before Christmas.


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## dimmy

MacBlaze said:


> I'm good with that. :wink
> 
> BTW Elayna just posted an instagram video of them trying to reef in a 46 knot gust. So if we did want to keep the thread going...
> 
> (link removed)


It looks like they still had both seats at that point, but those waves do _not_ look like fun.


----------



## chef2sail

SanderO said:


> YIKES.
> 
> Not very many passages get anything close to the sort of "attention" that this passage has received. And to me that is precisely the message:
> 
> This was a marketing effort first and foremost.
> 
> I believe that someone(s) who have lived aboard and sailed for a number of years would undoubtedly be or become a very competent sailor(s). SLV s a business. Outremer is a business. Both do what they do for money. Most people want to enjoy their work SVA is no different.
> 
> I think it is fine for Greta to choose sail as a more eco friendly means to get from here to there. That is part of her message. Unfortunately the calendar made this decision not a sound one. I seriously doubt SLV would return to Europe at this time if there wasn't a great marketing opportunity in it. I wish they had done it with a better weather window.... even that is a feat!
> 
> We know some people like to be voyeurs for whatever reason. Many pay for peeks as they do with porn. YES YouTubes can be instructive and learning platforms. I suppose some sailing vlogs are. Don't know because I am not seeing them nor will subscribe. I can ask you guys for help and the best advice is found here.
> 
> I think this thread needs to be closed. Everything to say about this voyage has been said.
> 
> Did anyone learn anything?


I'm with you Jeff, In everything but closing the thread. Let the people who need to watch reality shows have their fun.


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## paulk

I learned that it’s apparently easier to cross the mid-atlantic in the off season than I thought it was. Despite having some squalls hit them (It happens - I’ve been hit by squalls on boats in Long Island Sound, Lake Michigan, and the Irish Sea as well as the Atlantic.), they were able to pretty much mosey over at their own pace - certainly not as fast as the westbound raceboat trip to NYC - fairly steadily. Perhaps they had better weather than normal or were lucky. People had dire predictions that didn’t pan out. Perhaps the weather further North was worse, but that was not where they were. They didn’t need a full-keeled Colin Archer double-ender with 100 square feet of sail or freeze-dried rations heated up on a kerosene stove. Glad they made it.


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## TimMarks

One of the silver linings here is perhaps it will excite a younger audience about sailing, and get more people involved in the sport.

A whole group of youth who never would have payed attention to the "Vagabond Soap Opera / Reality Show" have now tuned in and maybe they will see something they like.



paulk said:


> I learned that it's apparently easier to cross the mid-atlantic in the off season than I thought it was.


It helped that they were in an extraordinarily fast sailboat, and could maneuver around or out run some of the more dire weather. In a monohull, they would still be out there slogging through crappy weather.


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## Ninefingers

chef2sail said:


> I'm with you Jeff, In everything but closing the thread. Let the people who need to watch reality shows have their fun.


If the snippet Elayna posted is any indication, i will be having a ripping time watching their videos. Pro level gear at the hands of pretty talented cameraman is a rare thing in the middle of the Atlantic.


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## Minnewaska

paulk said:


> I learned that it's apparently easier to cross the mid-atlantic in the off season than I thought it was.....


I have no idea how hard you thought it was, but the point about being off season in the north atlantic, does not mean the passage is impossible. It means the risk and difficulty is substantially higher and their success does not demonstrate otherwise. I don't think the squalls you've seen in LIS compare to being in 6 meter confused seas during one. At one point, they had a tropical cyclone bearing down on them and were lucky it petered out, before reaching them.

Nevertheless, I'm very glad they made it too. Ironically, their bad decision would be an even higher order of magnitude, if their success causes others to consider following their path.


----------



## mbianka

Minnewaska said:


> I have no idea how hard you thought it was, but the point about being off season in the north atlantic, does not mean the passage is impossible. It means the risk and difficulty is substantially higher and their success does not demonstrate otherwise. I don't think the squalls you've seen in LIS compare to being in 6 meter confused seas during one. At one point, they had a tropical cyclone bearing down on them and were lucky it petered out, before reaching them.
> 
> Nevertheless, I'm very glad they made it too. Ironically, their bad decision would be an even higher order of magnitude, if their success causes others to consider following their path.


Hard to imagine how it would have turned out had Riley stuck to his first decision to not have an additional sailor on board. Nikki's certainly added to making this a successful "mission". Though he has done passages by himself in the past. From the video posted it was far from a smooth passage. Losing one of the helm chairs is another example of how rough things got. No wonder they checked into a hotel. Seems they've had enough boat living for awhile.


----------



## paulk

Ninefingers said:


> If the snippet Elayna posted is any indication, i will be having a ripping time watching their videos. Pro level gear at the hands of pretty talented cameraman is a rare thing in the middle of the Atlantic.


For quality video take a look at the Brest-Atlantiques web page. https://www.brestatlantiques.com The four boats on the 14,000 race each had a dedicated media guy, with a drone, to make movies the entire time. The first boat has finished, BTW, less than 29 days after the start. They averaged better than 25 knots over the entire course, including a pit stop in Rio for repairs.


----------



## paulk

Minnewaska said:


> I have no idea how hard you thought it was, but the point about being off season in the north atlantic, does not mean the passage is impossible. It means the risk and difficulty is substantially higher and their success does not demonstrate otherwise. I don't think the squalls you've seen in LIS compare to being in 6 meter confused seas during one. At one point, they had a tropical cyclone bearing down on them and were lucky it petered out, before reaching them.
> 
> Nevertheless, I'm very glad they made it too. Ironically, their bad decision would be an even higher order of magnitude, if their success causes others to consider following their path.


Having crossed the North Atlantic IN season and encountered a week of fog, three storms with 18' waves and bitter cold in June, I would have anticipated much worse weather in November than what LaVagabonde seems to have encountered. It is also interesting to see how video editing meshes different scenes to give the impression that they are simultaneous when they are not. It just builds drama.


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## ronhughb

I don't think any of the sailing "vloggers" film when the s--t hits the fan unless there are a lot of extra crew onboard that can handle a camera while the real work is being done.
During their 20 days at sea we had over 65,000 deaths and 1.6 million injuries in the US, just from cars alone. maybe they were safer?

I think what they did was great for it being thrust on them at the last moment when the other boat back out. Their subscribers pay nothing to be entertained watching sailing and travel videos that evolve from their sailing. 
Less than .3% of the 1.2 million subscribers are "Patreons" that have pledged money per video or per month to help them. They obviously get money from You Tube for the views and ads that people have to see to watch their or any others videos.
La Vagabond, Delos, Zatara, etc. all say it takes about 60 hours of filming and editing to produce a 15 - 20 min video of quality. That's why they have so many followers, but it is a job.

It's entertainment...Not sure there is much difference between watching a NFL game on Sunday on the television or watching a sailing video. You didn't pay for either...if you do, you could go to the game and pay $70 - 200 per seat for a few hours of football and get a $12 hot dog.


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## SanderO

Is filming work?


----------



## bigdogandy

Is teaching work? Is creating art, architecture, music, food, poetry, or things like that “work”?

I don’t think what the LaVagabonde couple are doing with their video enterprise is that much different than what any other young entrepreneurs are doing who work hard, produce a product, and put it out on the market hoping to find willing buyers. It puzzles me that so many on the forum seem to consider them beggars? That they do seem to enjoy what they are doing doesn’t detract from the fact that the creative work of creating the videos actually involves a lot of hard work, in addition to the hard work of maintaining and sailing the boat, maintaining their relationship, and raising a kid.

I’m looking forward to seeing their vids from the trip!


----------



## MacBlaze

ronhughb said:


> It's entertainment...Not sure there is much difference between watching a NFL game on Sunday on the television or watching a sailing video. You didn't pay for either...if you do, you could go to the game and pay $70 - 200 per seat for a few hours of football and get a $12 hot dog.


Watching h$ll, what about the "performers"? I would totally rather lounging around my sailboat in my metaphorical bikini than be on the receiving end of a 300 pound tackle. You couldn't pay me enough to play pro football :wink The youtubers have the right idea even if it means sailing across the north Atlantic in the winter.


----------



## midwesterner

SanderO said:


> Is filming work?


I'd say it is. They do professional video editing to incorporate video from as many as 5 cameras, including underwater GoPros, shroud and mast mounted cameras, handheld cameras, and from a drone. Their videos include music dubbing.

Producing travelogue films to fund travel is nothing new. Marlin Perkins did it for Mutual of Omaha, Steve Irwin did it, now his kids are, as well. Anthony Bourdain did it for his Parts Unknown videos. Would we call those others freeloaders, because they found a way to fund what they love doing?


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## chef2sail

bigdogandy said:


> Is teaching work? Is creating art, architecture, music, food, poetry, or things like that "work"?
> 
> I don't think what the LaVagabonde couple are doing with their video enterprise is that much different than what any other young entrepreneurs are doing who work hard, produce a product, and put it out on the market hoping to find willing buyers. It puzzles me that so many on the forum seem to consider them beggars? That they do seem to enjoy what they are doing doesn't detract from the fact that the creative work of creating the videos actually involves a lot of hard work, in addition to the hard work of maintaining and sailing the boat, maintaining their relationship, and raising a kid.
> 
> I'm looking forward to seeing their vids from the trip!


Right....

They don't get extra credit for raising a child....many of us have ....it's a love of life and responsibility. Juries out how that turns out ..they've just started.
Taking an infant on a treacherous passage seemed a little foolhardy to me.

Maintaining and sailing a very expensive boat given to them. ( and by the way it can be taken away)They didn't earn it....they didn't work for it. I wonder how many on here were given their boats. I'll venture to say most on here worked their way up to the boats they own. That's not jealousy , but I think I appreciate what I have as I worked hard to get it .

Let's just say they are the best example of a Go Fund Me page I have ever seen. They are exceptional at leveraging what the market wants. I am not begrudging them that , it Is remarkable and I am sure Outreamer partners a great deal with them on their sophisticated marketing and videos. They have struck the right cord at the right time.

Their" job" is to be entertainers to keep the money flowing. Just like the circus performers , if their act isn't sensational it won't bring in the mullah. 
Someone will eventually replace them as we all know that's how entertainment works. Today's world doesn't show longevity as it turns from one entertainer to another. I wonder to those who have kids if they came to you with their idea what advice you'd give your children.

When that happens, hopefully they will have some kind of nest egg put aside for their family, child so when the gravy train switches to someone else they aren't just left high and dry.

Sign of the times are these reality shows. They take many forms. Many are TV . They must work as they keep popping up. The Apprectice, Survivor, The bachelor, America's got Talent, American Idol, and now La vagabond. I say it's ingenious of Outreamer to fund them.

Remember these work as long as they make money for the parent company...the only ones really investing the money.

Enjoy the glamor or the great videos why they last.. it's a production....a Reality Show.

Like I said before I prefer to hear the actual stories of our SN members and their adventures. So many on here are real people ( different backgrounds) 
And their experiences have made me learn, laugh, and think. Just look at the thread with the pictures of members adventures. Better yet look at the SN members pictures of themselves their boats and their families. 
I prefer that "reality show"


----------



## midwesterner

mbianka said:


> I disagree. Just this past summer two boats with electric propulsion auxiliary systems have crossed the Atlantic. I know of at least one EP powered Cat that has done it too. Having had an EP system on my boat since 2008 I would never go back to having a diesel engine connected to the prop. My solar panels keep the batteries topped up most of the time but, I also have a small generator for charging at anchor and extended electro sailing. But, I use it much less than I originally thought I would. It sounds as though Riley did not use the engine on the recent passage except at the beginning and end for docking. Which an EP system could easily have done too. La Vagabonde or anyboat would have done nicely on this passage with EP. Not only making fuel (energy) using wind and solar. But, could also use EP's regeneration properties using the props for charging too. Greta might even have a little smile on her face for a change.


That's awfully reassuring to hear. Much of what I have read about electric propulsion systems suggest that they just don't quite make the grade for long-range cruising.

I read the specs on this unit:
https://electricyacht.com/product/quiettorque-10-electric-motor/

On their website, they say it is good for boats up to 35 feet and 12000 lbs displacement, and they described it as being fine for costal cruisers. I saw one boat that was refitted with one of these, that was a 36 footer, probably weighing 15000 lbs (dry weight). I imagine that motor is not capable of moving that boat at hull speed. I wonder how often you would have to fire up the generator to recharge the batteries if you were going long distance.

I wonder if anybody has done the long-term cost comparison on the costs of operating and maintaining a diesel engine, versus an electric propulsion system, including the cost to replace a set of batteries, however often.


----------



## mbianka

midwesterner said:


> That's awfully reassuring to hear. Much of what I have read about electric propulsion systems suggest that they just don't quite make the grade for long-range cruising.
> 
> I read the specs on this unit:
> https://electricyacht.com/product/quiettorque-10-electric-motor/
> 
> On their website, they say it is good for boats up to 35 feet and 12000 lbs displacement, and they described it as being fine for costal cruisers. I saw one boat that was refitted with one of these, that was a 36 footer, probably weighing 15000 lbs (dry weight). I imagine that motor is not capable of moving that boat at hull speed. I wonder how often you would have to fire up the generator to recharge the batteries if you were going long distance.
> 
> I wonder if anybody has done the long-term cost comparison on the costs of operating and maintaining a diesel engine, versus an electric propulsion system, including the cost to replace a set of batteries, however often.


Because you can be using solar, wind and regen to recharge the batteries you should very rarely if at all need to use the generator for charging while at sea. I know my maintenance costs have dropped quite a bit. I did replace the AGM battery bank after eight years. But, only one battery was going bad. I replaced all four to keep them the same age. I probably could have gotten ten years out of them otherwise.

Apparently Jimmy Cornell is having Outreamer build a Catamaran with Electric Propulsion for him.
_"Jimmy Cornell, who expects to throw away on his next earthquake sailing in Magellan's wake next year. Unlike La Vagabonde, his Outremer catamaran is to a large extent built of carbon fiber, has a rotating mast, propulsion electric motors and completely independent of fossil fuel."

_


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

If you don't think filming is work then editing certainly is.

Long and exacting.


----------



## Minnewaska

SanderO said:


> Is filming work?


Snapping a quick picture at a beach bar, or a short vid, on your phone and texting it to your friends to let them see is not work.

It's also not what they are doing. I have to believe you don't watch any of this to have any idea what it must take to create these videos. There is the constant filming, during every experience you are having. That is work. Have you ever been the one who was responsible for filming your kid doing something. By the time you're done looking through the lens or at the screen and getting it all in frame, you feel like you missed it in real life.

There there is the B-roll of all the secondary shots they'll talk over later and all the set ups. One often sees a vid of a hike on an island, with both characters in the shot. They had already hiked up that trail, placed the camera, hiked back and re-hiked past it. Yes, it's work.

Then, imagine having to re-watch hours of awful footage that was being captured in bulk, just to find 15 minutes worth using. Finally, these popular channels have mastered real editing techniques. They aren't home movies.

Do you think TV shows, Movies, Travel Documentaries, etc, are work?


----------



## SanderO

MarkofSeaLife said:


> If you don't think filming is work then editing certainly is.
> 
> Long and exacting.


I DO think editing is work. Again the definition of work is key here. It is loosely and often defined as what you do to earn money. And so we have people who take pics for "fun" ie not for money and then people who are doing essentially the same thing for money, The latter usually have better quality and more advanced equipment and skill... such as a professional athlete or a professional photographer. My point was to suggest that documenting your time aboard by taking pics or vids is not what most people would call work. Some are better at it than others for sure.

But assembling the footage into a compelling presentation, editing and narration and so forth is much closer to what I think of as work. It may take time, and does take skill but it's not work like delivering mail or laying bricks or even doing research. Actors work too. They get paid to "play".... my grand daughters do not get payed but they do a lot of playing ;-) Making money from investing is not work either.... it's even called unearned income.

For sure people who produce vlogs that are compelling have talent... and people will pay to see the presentations for whatever reason. For sure it is enormous work to produce and publish and market a cruising guide. It usually takes many people with a range of skills and experience.

What we see now out there is the emergence of the "watch me" vlogs which produce a stream of dollars. Many of them are interesting. Many of them are not. I suppose it depends on what viewers want (to pay for). My wife is watching vlogs of women who are thrifting.. ie going to thrift shops and buying old clothes. This is of no interest to me, but these do get lots of viewers. They DO some editing... but these vlogs hardly looks like work to me. She also watches vlogs about house plants. Many of them are people showing off their plants and explaining in some cases how they water, feed and light, and display them. These vloggers do work at their collections. Some of them work very hard and plants are their living. These have high production values and are very informative... one of them is Plant One On Me. She writes books, produces courses, stages events, travels the world for content and is literally a expert botanists and introduces other experts on her vlogs.

Vlogs about boats can be informative content. I am sure these exist. I am sure most sailing vlogs with deal at some point with "mechanical things". But what I have realized.... is that the revenue model these days is about advertising and clicks.. and subscriptions with special perks. Outremer is not stupid... they are getting incredible PR and advertising about their product.

++++

Greta needed publicity because she had a message to get out whether you believe in its validity or not. Without the publicity she would still be doing her own protests in Sweden which only a handful of people knew about. She needed numbers to effect the changes she wants to see. She needed good PR. So people who could make money on her "deal" would do their thing. I suppose it's a win win and the price you have to pay at times. She paid...

Maybe.


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

I certainly don't think Greta is anything more than a spoilt kid who should be at school. Why has she had months away from school? 
She is not the producer, actor, presenter or writer of her life. She is the manipulated inanimate object of her parents activism.


Mark


----------



## bigdogandy

MarkofSeaLife said:


> I certainly don't think Greta is anything more than a spoilt kid who should be at school. Why has she had months away from school?
> She is not the producer, actor, presenter or writer of her life. She is the manipulated inanimate object of her parents activism.
> 
> Mark


Curious why you think she's being manipulated by her parents, Mark?

From what I've read of their family story her
Mom was an actress and her dad was a writer, and Greta's curiosity and passion for sustainability and climate issues came from influences outside the family. Her folks have supported her, surely, but it doesn't appear that they are the driving force behind her passion.


----------



## SanderO

MarkofSeaLife said:


> I certainly don't think Greta is anything more than a spoilt kid who should be at school. Why has she had months away from school?
> She is not the producer, actor, presenter or writer of her life. She is the manipulated inanimate object of her parents activism.
> 
> Mark


Valid points here. However at what age does an child have agency? She may have beliefs about the environment. She got them from some place....her parents? WWW? I don't know. She is still a minor and apparently her parents are supporting her. Recall Laura Dekker...

"Laura Dekker (Dutch pronunciation: [ˈlʌuraː ˈdɛkər]; born 20 September 1995) is a New Zealand-born Dutch sailor. In 2009, she announced her plan to become the youngest person to circumnavigate the globe single-handed. A Dutch court stepped in, owing to the objections of the local authorities, and prevented Dekker from departing while under shared custody of both her parents. In July 2010, a Dutch family court ended this custody arrangement, and the record-breaking attempt finally began on 21 August 2010. Dekker successfully completed the solo circumnavigation in a 12.4-metre (40 ft) two-masted ketch, arriving in Simpson Bay,[2] Sint Maarten, 518 days later at the age of 16"

Laura proved to be competent. Greta has somehow managed to become a icon the the youth's concern about the environment. Adults made most of that happen.... some for cynical reason... like Outremer etc.

But for people of all ages who care about the environment... they see her as raising consciousness and that is not a bad thing. Debate is ongoing.

People who go for "fame" make a sort of deal with the devil...it goes with the territory and most are more than willing to make the deal.


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

bigdogandy said:


> Curious why you think she's being manipulated by her parents, Mark?
> 
> From what I've read of their family story her
> Mom was an actress and her dad was a writer,.. .


Hi Andy,

[edited]

I'd start there.

Mark

I cut something out. Self moderating...? Lol


----------



## bigdogandy

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Hi Andy,
> 
> [edited]
> 
> I'd start there.
> 
> Mark
> 
> I cut something out. Self moderating...? Lol




My fault....I got off the sailing topic!


----------



## midwesterner

MarkofSeaLife said:


> I certainly don't think Greta is anything more than a spoilt kid who should be at school. Why has she had months away from school?
> She is not the producer, actor, presenter or writer of her life. She is the manipulated inanimate object of her parents activism.
> 
> Mark


That is one possible assessment. Another is, that she is a girl who learned a passion from her parents, about environmentalism and a concern for the future of our planet. Then her passion grew with the intensity of adolescence, and maybe she has parents who support her passions and interests and look for creative ways to inspire and enhance them. There are more ways for kids to gain an education than just sitting in desks in a classroom.

There are a lot of parents who allow their kids time out of school to train and compete in the Olympics, travel to do aid work in other countries, and sail around the world. There is the family on Sailing Zatara, the Casper Craven family, and Jamie and Behan Gifford, all home schooling their kids on sailboats. Their biology lessons might be snorkeling in the Azores, and their language lessons might be practicing their Spanish and Q'eqchi' in Belize.

Greta has now crossed the Atlantic Ocean twice, visited the US for the first time, and addressed the United Nations. As an educator, if Greta could write or speak informatively about her experience, upon her return, I'd have no problem signing off on a semester's worth of school credit for Social Studies, Geography, Environmental Sciences, Political Science, and maybe Language Arts.

Plus, she is traveling with her father. Have you ever done some extended adventure travel with your kids? Today, some of the best father/child bonding memories my kids mention, are the trips I took with them.


----------



## Minnewaska

Does anyone know where one could find Greta’s documented position on climate? I understand the benefit of raising awareness, but it’s hollow without a particular stance. What exactly does she want to see done and what does she see it accomplishing? I thought I’d find a website with this info.

Greta is currently 16 years old. I understand she got her start by skipping school and protesting outside Swedish government offices. I highly doubt she’s on a life experience study program. One can’t help but be impressed with her courage and conviction, but that’s not a full life.


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

midwesterner said:


> That is one possible assessment. Another is, that she is a girl who learned a passion from her parents,


The same as the 7 year old transgender Texan who is about to have its penic cut off?

Laws in most countries have adulthood at 18 by legislation... But scientists say the human brain hadn't developed fully until 25.

Whatever 16 is, it's as close to 7 years old as 25.

Preach when you've grown a brain.


----------



## SanderO

Minnewaska said:


> Does anyone know where one could find Greta's documented position on climate? I understand the benefit of raising awareness, but it's hollow without a particular stance. What exactly does she want to see done and what does she see it accomplishing? I thought I'd find a website with this info.
> 
> Greta is currently 16 years old. I understand she got her start by skipping school and protesting outside Swedish government offices. I highly doubt she's on a life experience study program. One can't help but be impressed with her courage and conviction, but that's not a full life.


I don't imagine Greta sought the position she now finds herself in. But she is not shirking it and perhaps exploiting it believing it spreads her core message that humans need to change their behavior and safe a planet's.... she sees (others do as well) from hastening the loss of species and habitats... life on earth as we know it. But sure the planet will go on as it cares not for life on earth or the level of the seas or the plastic floating on them. If she raises consciousness and gets people to reduce, reuse, recycle and so on she is accomplishing something. What's wrong with that?

Most posters will be long gone when her generation is left with what we hand them

Sailors on the boats out there understand the necessity of conservation and working with their environment. Sailors don't toss their refuse over board.


----------



## chef2sail

Minnewaska said:


> Snapping a quick picture at a beach bar, or a short vid, on your phone and texting it to your friends to let them see is not work.
> 
> It's also not what they are doing. I have to believe you don't watch any of this to have any idea what it must take to create these videos. There is the constant filming, during every experience you are having. That is work. Have you ever been the one who was responsible for filming your kid doing something. By the time you're done looking through the lens or at the screen and getting it all in frame, you feel like you missed it in real life.
> 
> There there is the B-roll of all the secondary shots they'll talk over later and all the set ups. One often sees a vid of a hike on an island, with both characters in the shot. They had already hiked up that trail, placed the camera, hiked back and re-hiked past it. Yes, it's work.
> 
> Then, imagine having to re-watch hours of awful footage that was being captured in bulk, just to find 15 minutes worth using. Finally, these popular channels have mastered real editing techniques. They aren't home movies.
> 
> Do you think TV shows, Movies, Travel Documentaries, etc, are work?


Such hard work..Hrs and hrs to edit....not hardly.

maybe what you mean is time consuming. I am sure it takes some time.

So many people when they work in a job work at least 40 hours per week. 8 per day. How many hours does it take to edit this stuff. Are you sure they don't have professional Outreamer help?

I'm not minimizing that it does take a certain commitment and time however let's get real and not make it out to be more than it is, They have no deadlines like a real job.


----------



## Minnewaska

SanderO said:


> ..... If she raises consciousness and gets people to reduce, reuse, recycle and so on she is accomplishing something. What's wrong with that?......


Nothing overtly wrong with it. It may not be time or resources well spent, unless I can understand what is actually being suggested.

Reforestation sounds like a very important and viable action we could all be taking. Recycling may actually be useless for some materials, soaking up huge amounts of funding.

The species is not going to move backwards, so any effort there is wasting time, as self righteous as the movement wants to be. The pragmatists will solve this problem. The activists never do.


----------



## mbianka

SanderO said:


> I don't imagine Greta sought the position she now finds herself in. But she is not shirking it and perhaps exploiting it believing it spreads her core message that humans need to change their behavior and safe a planet's.... she sees (others do as well) from hastening the loss of species and habitats... life on earth as we know it. But sure the planet will go on as it cares not for life on earth or the level of the seas or the plastic floating on them. If she raises consciousness and gets people to reduce, reuse, recycle and so on she is accomplishing something. What's wrong with that?
> 
> Most posters will be long gone when her generation is left with what we hand them
> 
> Sailors on the boats out there understand the necessity of conservation and working with their environment. Sailors don't toss their refuse over board.


People pretty much are on board with conservation. The world really does not need to hear angry lectures from a 16 year old or her leftist friends at Extinction Rebellion who today are demonstrating in Washington DC tying up traffic and making no friends in the process from people just trying to get to work. A better example are the people who are actually doing something positive like https://theoceancleanup.com/rivers/ coming up with solutions and implementing them. Unfortunately, they don't get the same media coverage as a scowling teenager.


----------



## boatpoker

Media is the new coliseum. The madding crowds are waiting to see the kid implode. It's a spectator sport in our society of celebrity cults.


----------



## SanderO

I am not a fan of media whores of any age. For sure her "side" is milking this for everything they can. Why wouldn't they? They have a character and a story which sells and attracts eyeballs to stories. Much of the news and media is like this... lots of eyewash and little content. So you need to read between the lines to extract the message.

I think the message is worth attention and debate and if man can do something to make this a better place... that's preferable to making it a worse place.

We are now seeing things like dingle use plastics disappearing. That's likely a good thing. This and other positive things for the environment are happening because consciousness has been raised. That IS a good thing. Maybe this is what appeals to young folks.

Maybe a lesson learned for adults is how (once again) media drives almost everything in the world today... 
That exploitation is alive and well
That cats can do the Atlantic in November with a small crew.
That very good real time weather data and forecasts is available to the offshore sailor
That you can do the Atlantic in gale winds with a dink on davits...

What else?

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...3wz2PDkA01FnMVJdHi_8r-RhM3yzQiID-EsZIfJv8WQNQ


----------



## midwesterner

MarkofSeaLife said:


> The same *as the 7 year old transgender Texan who is about to have its penic cut off? *
> 
> Laws in most countries have adulthood at 18 by legislation... But scientists say the human brain hadn't developed fully until 25.
> 
> Whatever 16 is, it's as close to 7 years old as 25.
> 
> Preach when you've grown a brain.


"Penic cut off"! Ha, no, that's not real.

the surgery talk was false news spread by the divorced father, to get attention. Nobody is talking about surgery on that child. You've been tricked by false news reports.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/28/us/texas-transgender-child.html

The kid wants to wear dresses, and the mom wants to let the kid figure it out, until he or she is old enough to make a truly informed decision. The dad wants to force the kid to act the way he feels more comfortable with his kid acting.

There is no evidence that Greta is being forced to do anything. There are certain kids who develop a strong passion for things early in life. Good, loving parents often look for ways to help kids explore their passions and interests. You never know, this could result in Greta one day becoming an environmental lawyer.


----------



## chef2sail

mbianka said:


> People pretty much are on board with conservation. The world really does not need to hear angry lectures from a 16 year old or her leftist friends at Extinction Rebellion who today are demonstrating in Washington DC tying up traffic and making no friends in the process from people just trying to get to work. A better example are the people who are actually doing something positive like https://theoceancleanup.com/rivers/ coming up with solutions and implementing them. Unfortunately, they don't get the same media coverage as a scowling teenager.


I say bull to this

If the message is a correct one who cares who delivers it. The message is what's importantant not the messenger.

I harken back to my Political and real awakening in the Mid to late 60s when I was her age. I was 14 when I first started working/ fighting/ protesting against my parents will for civil rights, equal rights, and the end to a illegitimate war. I helped work for election of a candidate for that. I watched Dr King get shot in April 1968 followed by the person I was working on the campaign for Robert Kennedy 2 months later. I was not alone in this protest , civil disobedience, and active peaceful demonstration. I was strident and pointed in my beliefs. Again I was hardly alone.

The birth of these movements transcended age as well and in April of 1970 went to the very first Earth Day on Belmont Plateau in Philadelphia with 80,000 friends and 20,000,000 nationwide.

To see younger people get involved against is a very good thing. 
The protest movement changed The whole political landscape in the 60s and 70s. Since then, not much seems to galvanize the youth of today.

It's funny the reaction to a youngster doing this is the same negativism being displayed as I saw back then. Change is hard for entrenched people to accept. It starts with denial the problem exists ( ie there is no climate change) .


----------



## MacBlaze

chef2sail said:


> Such hard work..Hrs and hrs to edit....not hardly.
> 
> maybe what you mean is time consuming. I am sure it takes some time.
> 
> So many people when they work in a job work at least 40 hours per week. 8 per day. How many hours does it take to edit this stuff. Are you sure they don't have professional Outreamer help?
> 
> I'm not minimizing that it does take a certain commitment and time however let's get real and not make it out to be more than it is, They have no deadlines like a real job.


Threads like this can be enlightening in such odd ways. I forget how many people have such a narrow definition of "work" and "job." I decided back in my early 20s that I want going to do anything that I didn't love to do. And I didn't. That meant sometimes I worked 80 hour weeks and sometimes I didn't work much at all. Then again, like Iceland, I came to realize that $$ was not the best indicator of quality of life-not everyone seems to be able to "buy" into that.

I probably couldn't do the Youtube thing, because contrary to what you think, deadlines are everything...you gotta feed the beast or you will just get swallowed up.


----------



## chef2sail

MacBlaze said:


> Threads like this can be enlightening in such odd ways. I forget how many people have such a narrow definition of "work" and "job." I decided back in my early 20s that I want going to do anything that I didn't love to do. And I didn't. That meant sometimes I worked 80 hour weeks and sometimes I didn't work much at all. Then again, like Iceland, I came to realize that $$ was not the best indicator of quality of life-not everyone seems to be able to "buy" into that.
> 
> I probably couldn't do the Youtube thing, because contrary to what you think, deadlines are everything...you gotta feed the beast or you will just get swallowed up.


Your tone is quite condescending by stating my views as "narrow" and implied that I saw $ as an indicator of quality of life. Maybe you didn't intend that , but that's how I am seeing it. Certainly anyone who knows me knows $ is not either what drives me or what I find as important in others or myself.

So let me try and redefine what I was saying and hopefully it will make sense.

Many of us work and subsequently usually you get paid in money. We need that in order to pay for our meager boats , our children's education, our living expenses, our health care insurance , our food , plan and take care of our futures when we no longer can "earn" . We don't beg or live off of others by subscribing to go fund me or similarly patrons. I know that may appear to be old school and I accept that. We budget and basically don't live a lifestyle we can't maintain ourselves. No where does that imply that $ are the measure of our/ my quality of life.

Yes you can play at that Simplified life by being a rebel, going off the grid for a period of time, choosing a minor variation of what your job is to earn money. Hopefully you choose something you love like I did, but the reality of responsibilities is that even if you go off the grid or pattern that you dreamed you never would do, that very few can keep that up for a lifetime.

Sooner or later the free handouts stop, the cutesy videos subsidized by your patrons/ backer dries up as they go elsewhere. Baby needs new clothes . Significant other gets tired of being a modern day nomad for themselves and their children. In my experience that's how I have seen this play out time and time again.

Those who " punch a clock", can invent things, make society better through research, make other humans happy, raise families , and contribute to their communities. All these " narrow " minded people are the majority of how people act . Without them there is no one to pay for the frivolities of traveling around on a million dollar yacht not paid for.

It's unfair to equate people who punch a clock, work in traditional roles as not being happy in what they do. That doesn't make them "less than " either. Other SN that I read on here who cruise and now lead a life of not "working" seem to have punched that clock to get where they are now. Me included.

None of them got where they were looking for handouts....they got there by planning and working hard for the later found freedom. Again that doesn't mean they didn't like what they did. If you ask Jeff (SanderO) , Outbound, and yes even Mark ?, they probably love what they contributed.

Everyone is different and has choice how they wish to live their life. Certainly it's a personal decision.

In many successful societies and the animal kingdom, Darwin intervenes and the tribe does not allow People to survive within it by not contributing To the tribes well being , unless the individual is too young, too old, or infirmed. Deciding to live off others is a choice met with exclusion and eventual death, so that limits them from reoccurring . Very very few people or animals can live entirely off the grid and by themselves on the fringe.

I wonder how many "slackers " will be onboard the colony first going to Mars. Will they allow that, or is it just the slackers ( film editors) who take advantage of the "holes" in our fruitful societies which enable them to exist and even survive.


----------



## MacBlaze

chef2sail said:


> Your tone is quite condescending by stating my views as "narrow" and implied that I saw $ as an indicator of quality of life. Maybe you didn't intend that , but that's how I am seeing it. Certainly anyone who knows me knows $ is not either what drives me or what I find as important in others or myself.


Sorry, no intention of being condescending, but I really do believe your view to be quite narrow. And I think your post just reinforces that. You insist that those who are riding the youtube wave (and other associated new media jobs) are "looking for handouts." I disagree. Vehemently. I've punched a clock. Did so for 16 years. It didn't make that "work" any more "real" than me sitting at home doing freelance work in my PJs or the stuff I or my partner managed to pump out in an anchorage. If I could leverage my creativity and make a living as an artist, I would do it in a minute. I can't imagine holding a grudge against musicians, painters, filmmakers, editors or even poets because they can produce something that the world is will to pay to consume and don't have to 9-5 it.

As for your Darwinian theories and the label of film editors as slackers... well see my comments above about narrowness. We live in a society that celebrates Larry Page Jeff Bezos and we (and yes I fall into this trap as well) still want to assert that working in traditional roles is the way to go. These days it's the people thinking out of the box that make the big bucks

And as much as I know nothing about you or what motivates you, you equally are off base by assuming I am some sort of "Simplified life by being a rebel, going off the grid for a period of time, choosing a minor variation of what your job is to earn money" kind of person. Capitalism is where it's at in this world and I make my money and buy my toys just like the next guy. I make money where the money is and the more flexible I am the more money I can make. Truthfully, my success has at that been sporadic but I've payed the bills.

Be that as it may, you obviously don't want or need to participate in what is a growing medium. I like Youtube, especially sailing related channels. I appreciate the content, be it good, bad or indifferent. If I don't like something I don't watch. It costs me next to nothing and frankly given the crappy state of Hollywood blockbusters these days I am generally quite happily save my $30. I f I find someone I think is doing good things, I chuck them a couple of bucks (blatant plug for Sailing Chuffed: a vet who sails around and delivery free vet services in central America).

I also like forums so I can learn more about my fellow human being's way of thinking. I've learned a lot about people here, and I really had no intention of looking down on anyone; I just get a bit uppity when people assert that those who are successful at something they don't approve of are somehow freeloaders. In my world view, entrepreneur is entrepreneur whether it's Kylie Jenner or Steve Jobs. Just because I despise one and like the other doesn't make either one of them wrong.

Ok, I'm done. Phew.


----------



## SanderO

Work is a good thing to like. You need not be defined by the work you choose although this is not uncommon. I went on a path of architecture something I could do in a corporate way to a small shop - sole proprietor / self employed and work from home. Along the way I did wood working and became a very competent woodworker. I had a good like worked hard and long hours then stopped and traveled for months... then returned to work.

When I got into sailing I realized I identified more as a sailor then as an architect. Architecture is more intrusive to nature, sailing is not at all. I like the SSCA's notion of leaving a clean wake... and this is a motto for one's life as well. Sailing has more lessons about life than architecture... and knowing how to sail are not the most important lessons.


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

Attack the argument, not the person. Please.


:grin


----------



## chef2sail

MacBlaze said:


> Sorry, no intention of being condescending, but I really do believe your view to be quite narrow. And I think your post just reinforces that. You insist that those who are riding the youtube wave (and other associated new media jobs) are "looking for handouts." I disagree. Vehemently. I've punched a clock. Did so for 16 years. It didn't make that "work" any more "real" than me sitting at home doing freelance work in my PJs or the stuff I or my partner managed to pump out in an anchorage. If I could leverage my creativity and make a living as an artist, I would do it in a minute. I can't imagine holding a grudge against musicians, painters, filmmakers, editors or even poets because they can produce something that the world is will to pay to consume and don't have to 9-5 it.
> 
> As for your Darwinian theories and the label of film editors as slackers... well see my comments above about narrowness. We live in a society that celebrates Larry Page Jeff Bezos and we (and yes I fall into this trap as well) still want to assert that working in traditional roles is the way to go. These days it's the people thinking out of the box that make the big bucks
> 
> And as much as I know nothing about you or what motivates you, you equally are off base by assuming I am some sort of "Simplified life by being a rebel, going off the grid for a period of time, choosing a minor variation of what your job is to earn money" kind of person. Capitalism is where it's at in this world and I make my money and buy my toys just like the next guy. I make money where the money is and the more flexible I am the more money I can make. Truthfully, my success has at that been sporadic but I've payed the bills.
> 
> Be that as it may, you obviously don't want or need to participate in what is a growing medium. I like Youtube, especially sailing related channels. I appreciate the content, be it good, bad or indifferent. If I don't like something I don't watch. It costs me next to nothing and frankly given the crappy state of Hollywood blockbusters these days I am generally quite happily save my $30. I f I find someone I think is doing good things, I chuck them a couple of bucks (blatant plug for Sailing Chuffed: a vet who sails around and delivery free vet services in central America).
> 
> I also like forums so I can learn more about my fellow human being's way of thinking. I've learned a lot about people here, and I really had no intention of looking down on anyone; I just get a bit uppity when people assert that those who are successful at something they don't approve of are somehow freeloaders. In my world view, entrepreneur is entrepreneur whether it's Kylie Jenner or Steve Jobs. Just because I despise one and like the other doesn't make either one of them wrong.
> 
> Ok, I'm done. Phew.


We live in a society that celebrates Larry Page Jeff Bezos and we (and yes I fall into this trap as well) still want to assert that working in traditional roles is the way to go. These days it's the people thinking out of the box that make the big bucks--.

Don't think so . Most inventions and advances in medicine, physics, chemistry are built on traditional research and work ethic. Don't confuse the openness and free thinking of someone's mind with the physical attributes of the hard methodical work it takes to produce their open thoughts into an invention.

I think you missed the mark. I too love the U Tube videos. I love self produced sailing adventures. In the case of these people I don't find that. It's a slick well though out Madison Avenue contrived marketing by a large company and their influence has been very successful. It's a reality show, plain and simple. And their is a large segment of the population which clamors for the reality show mantra. That's far different from U Tube. 
They have found a niche, and are marketing it. Hopefully the actors get more out of it than an all expense ride on a beautiful boat and that it fits in with their goals. The Reality Show La Vagabonde has all the elements including interpersonal relations. Thrown in is a background of the ocean and sailing. The "actors " are young , fairly good looking and very malleable.
I'm sure the play Outreamer gets from us is many times their investment ( or they wouldn't do it) . In order for it to stay in front of other Reality Shows it will have continual evolvement, just like any TV show does or it will not be renewed. Riley isn't the entrapenuer here, Outreamer is.

I am NOT placing judgement on this which you don't seem to understand, just call the elephant out for what it is.

Personally I am not a fan of reality shows. My own life is enough for me to have as a reality show. I don't find the need to live through others what may be missing in mine. U Tube videos, videos and pictures that SN show are very far distant from a series in a serial that LaVagabonde is. It's not fair to conflate the two different mantras even though they both use a visual medium.

I think enough said on this from me.


----------



## mbianka

chef2sail said:


> I say bull to this
> 
> If the message is a correct one who cares who delivers it. The message is what's importantant not the messenger.
> 
> I harken back to my Political and real awakening in the Mid to late 60s when I was her age. I was 14 when I first started working/ fighting/ protesting against my parents will for civil rights, equal rights, and the end to a illegitimate war. I helped work for election of a candidate for that. I watched Dr King get shot in April 1968 followed by the person I was working on the campaign for Robert Kennedy 2 months later. I was not alone in this protest , civil disobedience, and active peaceful demonstration. I was strident and pointed in my beliefs. Again I was hardly alone.
> 
> The birth of these movements transcended age as well and in April of 1970 went to the very first Earth Day on Belmont Plateau in Philadelphia with 80,000 friends and 20,000,000 nationwide.
> 
> To see younger people get involved against is a very good thing.
> The protest movement changed The whole political landscape in the 60s and 70s. Since then, not much seems to galvanize the youth of today.
> 
> It's funny the reaction to a youngster doing this is the same negativism being displayed as I saw back then. Change is hard for entrenched people to accept. It starts with denial the problem exists ( ie there is no climate change) .


It's not denial. Yes, the Earth does go through "Climate Changes" always has. My problem with the emotional Casandra's like Greta and those pushing the man is evil agenda is they ignore or give short shrift to earth's natural history. They refuse to debate and throw out things like "The science is settled". Science is never settled. I live on a land mass that was created by climate change. A glacier made it's way south and then due to "global warming" receded leaving sand and debris that is now Long Island. Only 15,000 years ago Long Island Sound where I sail today was once a dry patch prairie grass. The Hudson Canyon southeast of New York City (and others off the east coast) was truly a canyon that ended a hundred miles at the end of the continent. It's been underwater for a very long time due to climate change. The Maldives were also under hundreds of feet of water of water too. A single volcano eruption can disrupt the worldwide climate for years spewing sulfur and other gases that dwarfs any of mankind's impact. The strength of the sun also plays a major part in the earth's climate change. As does things like El Nino's. Money and time would be better spent adapting to the earth's changing climate and not thinking that mankind can influence the earth's natural cycles by students walking out of classrooms and banging drums. I'm all for solar energy and increasing energy efficiencies. Having converted my boat to Electric Propulsion over ten years ago I am glad my carbon footprint is less. I'm sold on it. But, I don't want to force others to convert their auxiliaries if they don't want too. IMO Man is better at adapting to the changes nature goes through rather than fighting them or mandating everyone become a vegetarian.


----------



## midwesterner

chef2sail said:


> I say bull to this
> 
> If the message is a correct one, who cares who delivers it. The message is what's important not the messenger.
> 
> I harken back to my Political and real awakening in the Mid to late 60s when I was her age..... Again I was hardly alone.
> 
> To see younger people get involved against is a very good thing.
> 
> It's funny the reaction to a youngster doing this is the same negativism being displayed as I saw back then. Change is hard for entrenched people to accept. It starts with denial the problem exists ( ie there is no climate change) .


Yes, you were not alone, I was out there too, and had similar experiences. I campaigned to get the vote for 18 year olds, when 18, 19, and 20 year olds were being sent to die in Vietnam, but couldn't vote for the leaders who were sending them there.

I remember watching the approval polls regarding the Vietnam War, and how they dropped during 1968 to 1973, from more than half the people in our country supporting the war, to dropping finally to a level well below half.

Those of us who campaigned against the war believed that we were acting as very patriotic citizens, fighting to end a war that was killing Americans, and damaging our nation. But we were spit on, I was spit on, and told that we were traitors to our country, and shouldn't be allowed to remain here. We were told by many, that the only option was to support our government and the war.

Now, the tapes of conversations from the White House have been released, tapes in which military advisers told Kennedy, Johnson, and then Nixon, that the war was a losing battle, was a mistake, and could not be won. We now know that each of those presidents resisted ending the war, because they feared it would hurt their chances of re-election. They continued to send people of our generation to their death, merely to maintain their approval rating.

It turns out that we were right, when we protested the war, and called it pointless, but we were spit on, we were called traitors, and were told that we were un-American.


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## SanderO

Forces of nature are no match for humans as Mike points out quite well. But humans have apparently according scientists been adding a significant amount of green house gases to the atmosphere such that they assert global temps are rising and this is contributing to melting of ice caps and making the climate more volatile. I believe this is "the science" that she refers to as "settled".. More CO2 in the atmosphere means higher temps with more disturbed weather and powerful storms. Time with tell if this is truly a trend. Anecdotally it appears in my lifetime... that we are experience more unsettled weather patterns.

The reasoning goes as we know... humans need to cut back on the greenhouse gas production and other things which seem to be contributing to this problem... deforestation is another one. You can accept this logic or not. But it is a long time scale solution and it may not be enough as other natural forces continue and may be stronger... such as earthquakes and tectonic movement.

We see something similar going on with the creation and use of plastics which are not conducive to recycling and end up being dispersed throughout the environment. Plastics are a product derived from materials found in nature, such as natural gas, oil, coal, minerals and plants. I believe most people accept that by and end products should not simply be discarded into the environment to pile up and pollute the land and sea. We support the notions of reduce, recycling and reuse to mitigate some of the problem. The science behind this seems sound.

The man made problems are clearly related to population. More people more of all of the above. If we don't figure out what is a sustainable population and do something to about it... population will simply grow and the impact of humans will grow with it. This is a settle principle.

Humans had no real environmental consciousness of behaviors to protect the environment. Many believe that nature will find solutions. And to an extent this IS true. But those solutions will likely be a very different world which humans will have no choice but to adapt to. Populations will be forced to move away from low lying areas if ocean levels rise. This is science predicted as well.

These changes typically take time and the scale is not days or weeks, months or years... but decades and centuries. The climate is a huge system with enormous momentum and so it is not going to be easily or quickly changed unless there is a catastrophic event such as a large meteor strike. One was believed to be the cause of many extinctions.

It seems to me that there is enough science out there to be concerned. It also seems that humans can change their behavior and not be part of the problem of these changes but part of the solution to mitigating or lessening them. We need to raise consciousness, accept that there is a problem and there are some solutions... such as limiting population growth, production of fewer greenhouse gases, stop deforestation and begin more planting and move toward more sustainable products and practices... such as wind and solar and lower greenhouse gas producing energy.

This is not difficult to understand. And it's not difficult to communicate. But it is difficult to put into global practice... and it won't happen unless the vast majority of humans are on board and doing their share... And THAT needs to be determined.

If a young person can get the message to resonate with her and older generations fine. The environment message has been around since Rachel Carson. Humans have proved to be slow on the uptake and most will be gone before it gets out of control. Getting any message out is a marketing problem or effort. Mad Ave has taught us we need "shiny objects" to get our attention.... you know "sex sells"... lede with blood and disaster. So a young activist sailing across the Atlantic in winter west to east is not going to attract the entire world and influence anyone to change. But it may get some attention and may wake some people up. That's not a bad thing. Many here see the exploitation in play and this seems to be in the DNA of humans. Hard to imagine that someone wouldn't be trying to exploit this passage.

Time will tell. It always does.

Interesting:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-UDYUGne8O1-9-U8WhyVFOdZLe_ifUKmhUnXjQmID-bu0


----------



## Minnewaska

MacBlaze said:


> ......I just get a bit uppity when people assert that those who are successful at something they don't approve of are somehow freeloaders......


I could not agree more and I think you've nailed the issue. There is something irrational to the counter argument.

I like to cook and discuss it with my friends, who also like to cook. Imagine trying to make the argument that producing cooking shows (Food Network, Julia Child's The French Chef, etc) was not work?

I've not read a single reason why the work product of SLV is any different than network/cable television or any other media company. Receiving sponsorships is also a standard in those businesses. Want to bet the Wolf stoves, knives, stand mixers, etc, etc, are all supplied to the Food Network at a discount. SLV made clear they are leasing their boat from Outremer at a discount, but it wasn't given to them. The discount was compensation for the exposure. This is exactly as Coke and Pepsi pay to have their products featured in the story line, not just advertising. When Tom Cruise picks up a Pepsi in a movie, it makes an impression. Basic marketing. Nothing unusual about SLV.

While the newer SLV product itself has not been my cup of tea, I'm fascinated by the entrepreneurial enterprise that has folks volunteering to pay for the product, while others get a scaled down version for free. Patron contributions typically get improved access of some kind. It's often first look, direct access to the crew or other creative economic incentives. They often get swag or other benefits for their contribution. Of course, those viewing for free are exposed to advertising and that drives revenue to the producer too. It's a business.

At the end of the day, SLV has no free ride. They put in enormous hours. They miss out on the experience we might otherwise have, as they must concentrate on getting it in the view screen. That's work.


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## SanderO

Minni... your arguments are fine. Works is different things to different people and compensation for "work" is all over the map.

I suppose one of the elephants in the room is what is the relationship between compensation and work? What is the role of time and inventiveness and creativity?

Musicians, entertainers, athletes, dancers, models and artists are compensated for their product. In some cases it takes years of study and training, And the actual "product" may literally be "hard work"... take something like ballet or opera. How is compensation related to what they do? Is a baseball player's compensation of $20MM sensible when compared to say a ballet dancer who would be well paid at 1/100 of that compensation? In a sense compensation seems somewhat irrational. Take sales.... if a salemen get a commission on the sale.... how much more work is it to sell a bunch of Jetliners compared to a compact car? Or is it harder / more work to sell a Maserati than it is to sell a Prius?

Entertainers and athletes compensation are also related to audience demand as well as "performance". 

It's well established that seeing for learning and voyeurism are common human attributes. Entrepreneurs exploit voyeurism for sure.... witness the success of porn. Porn acting, production is work.... but likely more fun than layer bricks.

Apparently people are more than willing to pay to peek at SLV's exploits. I suppose much the way they watch Housewives of LA or Below Decks. If people will pay and you have a "pretty product" to look at... you can cash out. Producing the episodes is "work" and it doesn't happen by itself. I suspect in the case of SLV it appeals to "dreamers" and people who are unable to do what they are doing. Everyone is entitled to their dreams. People pay for porn... so some (alot) they will pay for boat vlogs as well. LIkely not many sailors... who are doing it... but some will if the content is entertaining.

The vast majority of workers in the USA are low wage earners. They struggle to get thru their bills, don't sail, ski, or travel. They have smart phones and TV.


----------



## chef2sail

Minnewaska said:


> I could not agree more and I think you've nailed the issue. There is something irrational to the counter argument.
> 
> I like to cook and discuss it with my friends, who also like to cook. Imagine trying to make the argument that producing cooking shows (Food Network, Julia Child's The French Chef, etc) was not work?
> 
> I've not read a single reason why the work product of SLV is any different than network/cable television or any other media company. Receiving sponsorships is also a standard in those businesses. Want to bet the Wolf stoves, knives, stand mixers, etc, etc, are all supplied to the Food Network at a discount. SLV made clear they are leasing their boat from Outremer at a discount, but it wasn't given to them. The discount was compensation for the exposure. This is exactly as Coke and Pepsi pay to have their products featured in the story line, not just advertising. When Tom Cruise picks up a Pepsi in a movie, it makes an impression. Basic marketing. Nothing unusual about SLV.
> 
> While the newer SLV product itself has not been my cup of tea, I'm fascinated by the entrepreneurial enterprise that has folks volunteering to pay for the product, while others get a scaled down version for free. Patron contributions typically get improved access of some kind. It's often first look, direct access to the crew or other creative economic incentives. They often get swag or other benefits for their contribution. Of course, those viewing for free are exposed to advertising and that drives revenue to the producer too. It's a business.
> 
> At the end of the day, SLV has no free ride. They put in enormous hours. They miss out on the experience we might otherwise have, as they must concentrate on getting it in the view screen. That's work.


There are plenty of cooking shows which are Reality Shows.....then there are the ones which showcase real accomplished chefs who process creativity and usually are in businesss for themselves which are successful. Sure they have sponsors. Its advertising, it's about just making money.

The difference is the food reality show vs the true accomplished chefs. Anyone can cook and call themselves a chef. Anyone can follow someone else's developed recipie. Even in a real restaurant patrons often refer to the line cooks as chefs mistakenly. Like I said anyone can cook and discuss food. But a Chef is a professional who can develope new items, purchase correctly, lead and train a team, and most importantly have the ability to MAKE MONEY. Having that finesse to understand their consumer is what differentiates successful chefs. You can no more be a professional chef by watching these videos than you can watch a video, take a flying lesson and become a United Pilot.

If you want to watch instructional videos of accomplished chefs to learn to cook or improve your techniques that is a great way to do it. These are not reality shows.

There are plenty of food reality shows. Just like La Vagabonde, the Apprectice, American Idol, Cupcake Wars, Chopped and the Bachelor. The titulatiin of drama, feelings between people are part of the "sell" people like nowadays. There is a place for them just because the public has determined that through their wallets.

While they are not my cup of tea, I know there are others who like them, for whatever reason. That's fine different strokes for different folks.

What I don't understand is the intolerance of some who when presented with an alternative point of view concerning them to demean the alternative opinions and find it necessary to prove their opinions as wrong. Can't we just tolerate others opinions which are not similar, and move forward or is this a sign of the new times too.&#55357;&#56836;&#55357;&#56836;&#55357;&#56836;&#55357;&#56836;


----------



## SanderO

Winning is everything... haven't you heard this from our dear leader?


----------



## Minnewaska

I think it's a bridge too far to conflate sailing vlogs with porn, professional sports compensation or low wage jobs. Those are social or socioeconomic debates. If I produced one of these vlogs and my wife was considered porn-like, just because she's attractive and appeared in the vlog, I'd be quite insulted. 

The point here was solely about whether producing these sailing vlogs is considered work and whether sponsorships are some sort of indulgent freebee. Seems ultimately everyone agrees the sailing vlogs are work and the sponsorships are ordinary. That's all. The rest can be discussed in OT.


----------



## chef2sail

Minnewaska said:


> I think it's a bridge too far to conflate sailing vlogs with porn, professional sports compensation or low wage jobs. Those are social or socioeconomic debates. If I produced one of these vlogs and my wife was considered porn-like, just because she's attractive and appeared in the vlog, I'd be quite insulted.
> 
> The point here was solely about whether producing these sailing vlogs is considered work and whether sponsorships are some sort of indulgent freebee. Seems ultimately everyone agrees the sailing vlogs are work and the sponsorships are ordinary. That's all. The rest can be discussed in OT.


Just like it was a reach conflating sailing vlogs and professional chefs shows.
There are definitely reality food tv shows like the sailing vlogs
There are reality sailing vlogs as well as instructional u tube videos which 
Are different animals.


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## SanderO

Heck... go for virtual reality!


----------



## MacBlaze

chef2sail said:


> What I don't understand is the intolerance of some who when presented with an alternative point of view concerning them to demean the alternative opinions and find it necessary to prove their opinions as wrong. Can't we just tolerate others opinions which are not similar, and move forward or is this a sign of the new times too.��������


The reason this discussion has become completely pointless is because you can't see the irony in this statement.

BTW, if the comments are any indication, plenty of sailors watch LaV and it's ilk. Of course that will likely just spur another thread drift about "what is a real sailor?"


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## Minnewaska

SanderO said:


> Heck... go for virtual reality!


There is no doubt that will be part of the future. I'm sure the purists will object. However, I think it will allow people to have a multitude of experiences, without the necessary investment of time and treasure in all of them.

I'm also convinced that humans will retain some real life experience too, but VR will vastly expand upon it.


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## Andrew65

I’ve actually read the entire thread and it was enlightening for me. I didn’t know much of the background. 

There is another aspect to the story though I believe, imho, and it’s about the trench coat puppetmaster Cornell arranging it for the publicity benefit of Outremer. I wonder what his cut was in it all. His first choice backed out which isn’t a surprise, so he went with the alternative, Riley and co., to get the job done on an Outremer.

Personally, I think that it was rude (understatement) of Cornell to stealthy pressure them into the trip. I think that he was playing with their lives. I wonder what sweet package he offered Riley. I’d like to hear about it. 

Riley at first resisted. Sure, why stick your neck out when they’ve over 1mil of viewers and making enough money to do what they want with little risk. Cornell knew that suggesting an experienced captain/crew member was needed so the best would be a non-threat to Riley’s ego..i.e. a young woman (she’s no slouch for sure, but certainly not a brute of an old salt that could quickly piss off someone with the time frame they had to do this run within thus ruining the entire Outremer publicity stunt). She was a perfect choice. No damaged egos. 

Even Robin Knox-Johnston put it out there too, “Greta couldn’t be in better hands than Nikki’s”. In other words, Riley is an idiot and not really qualified to do the trip in question.

This whole saga has rightfully fired up many people in the sailing community because prudence and smart seamanship dictates to not tackle that trip in November (off season) with a timeframe and an unknown crew attached to it. Unknown crew are a scary lot to sail with. People change at sea. Been there, done that. No thank you. Never again. 

I wonder what Cornell would of said if the trip ended with a completely different outcome (not arriving or imparting a huge rescue operation).

“Oops, sorry”, isn’t an answer.


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## SanderO

Andrew65 said:


> I've actually read the entire thread and it was enlightening for me. I didn't know much of the background.
> 
> There is another aspect to the story though I believe, imho, and it's about the trench coat puppetmaster Cornell arranging it for the publicity benefit of Outremer. I wonder what his cut was in it all. His first choice backed out which isn't a surprise, so he went with the alternative, Riley and co., to get the job done on an Outremer.
> 
> Personally, I think that it was rude (understatement) of Cornell to stealthy pressure them into the trip. I think that he was playing with their lives. I wonder what sweet package he offered Riley. I'd like to hear about it.
> ....
> 
> I wonder what Cornell would of said if the trip ended with completely different outcome (not arriving or imparting a huge rescue operation).
> 
> "Oops" isn't an answer.


I don't know boo about Cornell except the usual marketing pap. His role seems pretty weird to me.... especially since word has it that he is getting a cat from Outremer. How's that for an ulterior self serving motive? I would have thought that he would know how ill advised this passage was at this time with such a small crew. I can only attribute this to some quid pro quo in there. Why take such a chance with people's lives? This is speculation, but if true it tarnishes Outremer, SLV, Nikki Henderson and of course the naive Thundbergs. This dude has some answering to do. But I doubt he will do it.

Another side of the story which is a turn off. Well done Jimmy!


----------



## chef2sail

MacBlaze said:


> The reason this discussion has become completely pointless is because you can't see the irony in this statement.
> 
> BTW, if the comments are any indication, plenty of sailors watch LaV and it's ilk. Of course that will likely just spur another thread drift about "what is a real sailor?"


Et tu,


----------



## MacBlaze

Andrew65 said:


> I've actually read the entire thread and it was enlightening for me. I didn't know much of the background.
> 
> There is another aspect to the story though I believe, imho, and it's about the trench coat puppetmaster Cornell arranging it for the publicity benefit of Outremer. I wonder what his cut was in it all. His first choice backed out which isn't a surprise, so he went with the alternative, Riley and co., to get the job done on an Outremer.
> 
> Personally, I think that it was rude (understatement) of Cornell to stealthy pressure them into the trip. I think that he was playing with their lives. I wonder what sweet package he offered Riley. I'd like to hear about it.
> 
> Riley at first resisted. Sure, why stick your neck out when they've over 1mil of viewers and making enough money to do what they want with little risk. Cornell knew that suggesting an experienced captain/crew member was needed so the best would be a non-threat to Riley's ego..i.e. a young woman (she's no slouch for sure, but certainly not a brute of an old salt that could quickly piss off someone with the time frame they had to do this run within thus ruining the entire Outremer publicity stunt). She was a perfect choice. No damaged egos.
> 
> Even Robin Knox-Johnston put it out there too, "Greta couldn't be in better hands than Nikki's". In other words, Riley is an idiot and not really qualified to do the trip in question.
> 
> This whole saga has rightfully fired up many people in the sailing community because prudence and smart seamanship dictates to not tackle that trip in November (off season) with a timeframe and an unknown crew attached to it. Unknown crew are a scary lot to sail with. People change at sea. Been there, done that. No thank you. Never again.
> 
> I wonder what Cornell would of said if the trip ended with a completely different outcome (not arriving or imparting a huge rescue operation).
> 
> "Oops, sorry", isn't an answer.


I'd be interested in your sources for all this. How much is reasonable and how much is supposition. Riley certainly has a a Cornell-crush but I've never heard of a "first choice"/second choice scenario. It would be nice to see some primary source material.

It certainly does cast a different light on the whole voyage if even half true.


----------



## bigdogandy

Andrew65 said:


> I've actually read the entire thread and it was enlightening for me. I didn't know much of the background.
> 
> There is another aspect to the story though I believe, imho, and it's about the trench coat puppetmaster Cornell arranging it for the publicity benefit of Outremer. I wonder what his cut was in it all. His first choice backed out which isn't a surprise, so he went with the alternative, Riley and co., to get the job done on an Outremer.
> 
> Personally, I think that it was rude (understatement) of Cornell to stealthy pressure them into the trip. I think that he was playing with their lives. I wonder what sweet package he offered Riley. I'd like to hear about it.
> 
> Riley at first resisted. Sure, why stick your neck out when they've over 1mil of viewers and making enough money to do what they want with little risk. Cornell knew that suggesting an experienced captain/crew member was needed so the best would be a non-threat to Riley's ego..i.e. a young woman (she's no slouch for sure, but certainly not a brute of an old salt that could quickly piss off someone with the time frame they had to do this run within thus ruining the entire Outremer publicity stunt). She was a perfect choice. No damaged egos.
> 
> Even Robin Knox-Johnston put it out there too, "Greta couldn't be in better hands than Nikki's". In other words, Riley is an idiot and not really qualified to do the trip in question.
> 
> This whole saga has rightfully fired up many people in the sailing community because prudence and smart seamanship dictates to not tackle that trip in November (off season) with a timeframe and an unknown crew attached to it. Unknown crew are a scary lot to sail with. People change at sea. Been there, done that. No thank you. Never again.
> 
> I wonder what Cornell would of said if the trip ended with a completely different outcome (not arriving or imparting a huge rescue operation).
> 
> "Oops, sorry", isn't an answer.


If you have any real knowledge or evidence of these things you're accusing or insinuating please share....otherwise you've just started a thread drift of unfounded conspiracy / slander / character attacks......


----------



## Andrew65

mbianka’s post #381 has an article for my source. It quotes Cornell and makes him out to be the coordinator. The boat is fully capable, he knows it too, but to put others at risk for the PR is not cool. He had to have offered some kind of carrot to persuade Riley.


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## MacBlaze

Andrew65 said:


> He had to have offered some kind of carrot to persuade Riley.


Objection! Speculation... :grin

Man, I could never be a lawyer or a judge...


----------



## bigdogandy

Thanks, Andrew... I hadn't read that article and it does give a lot of insight into Cornell's role in helping make connections between Greta, Nikki, and SLV. 

That being said, and maybe I'm a bit naive, but I don't see how from that article you interpreted that Cornell somehow pressured the LaVagabonde crew into making the voyage, or how it was all an Outremer PR stunt, or that Robin Knox-Johnston said Riley was an idiot......

Could be that the Google translation left a lot to be interpreted


----------



## Andrew65

The Robin Knox interpretation was probably a bit harsh, but it still was read as not giving Riley the confident nod of being qualified enough imo. 

I still believe Cornell was out to get an Outremer to transport Greta over.

He’s getting a custom build one built for himself. He and the yard guys discussed using an Outremer to transport Greta. He offered to do it on one he was going to sail which is fair enough, but loses my respect when he lines up someone else to do such an arduous journey because his trip fell through all in the name of using an Outremer. It’s too uncanny for me to accept as a coincidence.

Cornell probably didn’t pressure (bad choice of words) Riley, more like subtle persuasion.


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## chef2sail

The smoking gun reappears.........Subtle economic persuasion


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## RegisteredUser

Thread has turned really stupid..
Now has personal shoulder chip bloom


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## visional

Deleted


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## TimMarks

visional said:


> ...


Time to change your password!


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## MarkofSeaLife

Here's the cut and paste. Remember this is an auto translated text from Swedish
My bolding. 
Note... The first La Vagabond was not a cyclides 43 but a Beneteau 393 same as mine.



> It was the catamaran La Vagabonde that led Greta Thunberg to the Youtube stars, but the road there was not obvious despite the project being supported by some of the world's most experienced sailors.
> - It was crucial that a professional skipper strengthen the crew, says long-distance sailor expert Jimmy Cornell, who linked Greta and the couple at La Vagabonde.
> 
> In early November, Jimmy Cornell was on the French Mediterranean coast. He is well known among long-distance sailors, is a writer of the long-distance Bible World Cruising Routes and has sailed the earth around three times. Right now he is in the midst of preparing for a land-based cruise with a catamaran to be built on the Outremer shipyard in the seaside town of La Grand-Motte.
> - Me and some on the shipyard discussed Greta's call for a boat and crew that could take her across the Atlantic. Did we know any boat? Yes, I would sail an Outremer myself now in South Carolina on the east coast of the United States later this year. Perfect!
> 
> La Vagabonde
> Outremer 45: La Vagabonde is currently making the most notable crossing of the Atlantic this year. Here, the catamaran leaves Hampton in Chesapeake Bay.
> 
> Jimmy Cornell used his network to get in direct contact with Svante Thunberg, Greta's dad who was on the trip in the US, who handed over to an assistant who coordinated Greta's return trip.
> - We considered that it was not likely to reach the start of the climate summit in Madrid, but reasonable to arrive before it ends. But *unfortunately, the owner of the catamaran withdrew when he thought about it *and did not get together with the planning for his family. But we had already found then that Riley's and Elayna's boat La Vagabonde could also be a good alternative. It is an Outremer 45 and it was located in Chesapeake Bay on the East Coast.
> 
> The couple who sail the catamaran La Vagabonde is by far the world's most famous long-distance sailor in social media. They have over one million followers on Youtube and live on viewer donations and sponsorship contributions. After a world tour with a 43-foot Beneteau Cyclades, the couple switched to an Outremer catamaran in 2017 and have since extended the family with one son, Lenny. They return in their regularly published films to try to live sustainably on their boat.
> Riley Whitelum and Elayna Carausu have met Jimmy Cornell on one occasion in 2017 when they sought him out at a seminar in Paris for his Atlantic crossing with the new catamaran.
> 
> Jimmy Cornell
> Jimmy Cornell has, among other things, sailed through the Northwest Passage and three laps around the earth on his own boat. Next year he will be leaving again.
> 
> - I contacted Riley who said yes to letting the catamaran go directly and he had previously tried to reach Greta via social media without success. Then we contacted Greta's team who also made direct contact with Riley and Elayna. *But the circumstances of the sail are special and I judged that a more experienced skipper was required on board. We must have respect for the North Atlantic in the winter, *and we mobilized two ships with extensive experience of longer crossings on the high seas with a catamaran. *But Riley said no to the reinforcement. Then I advised Greta's team not to go further with La Vagabonde, says Jimmy Cornell.*
> 
> *But now the ball was rolling with many involved and within less than a day, professional skipper Nikki Henderson had agreed to be part of the crew. The couple at La Vagabonde accepted the solution*. Nikki Henderson is the same age as Elayna, 26, and thus nine years younger than Riley, but she is the most experienced sailor on board. Nikki started sailing as a 13-year-old (seven years before Riley bought her first boat) and has been the skipper of one of Clipper Around the World Race's boats 2017-2018, during three Atlantic crossings with the ARC squadron and on the Caribbean 600 sailing ship. has also sailed the Fastnet Race a couple of times and made countless transport sailing around the world. Nikki has also worked as a sailing instructor for beginners for several years.
> 
> Nikki Henderson
> As the youngest skipper ever in the Clipper Around the World Race, Nikki Henderson took her boat and crew to the finish as a second boat in 2018. Photo: CRWR
> 
> "Greta can't be in better hands than Nikki's," Robin Knox-Johnston told On the Cross.
> Knox-Johnston is one of the world's most experienced sailors and chairman of Clipper Ventures, which recruited Nikki for the assignment as skipper of the 2017 earthquake race.
> - She is a proven leader and sailor. Among other things, she led her team to a second place in the latest Clipper race. For her relatively young age, she has a tremendous experience of sailing at sea, says Robin Knox-Johnston, who was also the first to sail solo earth around nonstop.
> 
> Exactly how the division of responsibilities looks at La Vagabonde, so far only those on board know, but probably Riley is a formal commander, even if Nikki is most qualified for the task. Nikki himself wrote after the second day of the trip, in a post on Facebook, that the crew made a decision "as a team" to steer south in the face of harsh easterly winds. After a later blow to the East course, Nikki wrote that she and Riley "have increased confidence in each other". The fact that Nikki is an elite athlete and competitor was noticed when she stated in her Facebook log that it felt like "going on the wrong side of the highway" when the decision to reduce the sail surface to slow down, and not end up in an area with heavy winds, was taken during the sixth day. Nikki describes Riley as an excellent leader on board with "steadfast confidence, but at the same time a humble openness to proposals".
> 
> Greta Thunberg
> Nikki Henderson has limited experience with catamarans, but has sailed across the Atlantic several times before. Image: Nikki Henderson
> 
> The *crew also has the help of the very experienced skipper and navigator Christian Dumard who helps with the choice of his office in France. The Outremer ship, of course, gets valuable marketing of its boats thanks to Greta's journey and committed Christian to the mission. Christian has been fully monitoring the weather systems * that so far have offered a lot of snow.
> "There are quite a few boats out there now and not uncommon with boats crossing the Atlantic in November, December," Christian Dumard told På Kryss.
> - Most people are further south than La Vagabonde, which is a little more risky because it is not uncommon for heavy low-pressure like this year and because it can quickly form small heavy low-pressure in the cold fronts that sweep east. You have to be compliant with the systems and follow them closely, says Christian Dumard, who continuously communicates with Nikki and Riley via text messages.
> 
> So far, the voyage for La Vagabonde has largely gone as expected since its launch on November 13. After a tumultuous first day over the shallow waters outside the United States and across the Gulf Stream, the winds have changed a lot, but given a high average speed north of Bermuda with an east course towards the Azores. During the day, La Vagabonde has averaged around eight knots and night time around five knots over the past 24 hours. Sailing with a catamaran requires greater foresight with demolition and adaptation of the sail surface, than a single-hull boat, so as not to risk turning around. The line to the roll bar broke north of Bermuda, but the function of the roll sail could be retained after an improvised repair.
> 
> La Vaga
> Outremer 45: an La Vagabonde has a first name and a point for a hen / spinnaker. Image: Nikki Henderson
> 
> At the link below, La Vagabonde's position is updated with some delay. La Vagabonde has rarely in the last year chosen to use its ais transponder and it was put on for only a few days after the start of the ongoing crossing. The signal has long been programmed to show Sydney as a destination. Via the Orbcomm satellites, for example, the transponder can be monitored throughout the entire crossing.
> 
> Outremer 45: La Vagabonde is designed by Patrick le Quément. It is 48 feet long, 23 feet wide and runs down to 2 meters with a dagger board for each hull. In addition to a steering wheel there are a couple of rudder cults. The mainsail is 67 square meters and the thoroughfare 110 square meters. The spinnaker is 150 square meters and the boat has a pair of diesels of 30 horsepower each. The French word Outremer is pronounced utterly and means approximately beyond the sea. Unlike Greta Thunberg's crossing with Boris Hermann's Malizia, this time the diesel engines were used for propulsion, but during the sailing they produce electricity with a water generator.
> 
> Riley Whitelum's first La Vagabonde was a 43-foot Beneteau Cyclades that he learned to sail on after the purchase of the boat in Italy. He then met Elayna at Ios, who moved aboard a month later. To calm her worried mother, Elayna began sending videos of the couple's sailing to the mother, other relatives and friends. When Elayna noticed how appreciated the movies were, she persuaded Riley to also post the movies on Youtube. Starting with Malta in the Mediterranean, the pair's followers began to grow in numbers and they quickly became more en route across the Atlantic, but the films made no income and when the pair reached Grenada in the southern Caribbean, the pair broke. When the couple told on social media that they would put the boat on land to go away and make money together, several followers suggested that they donate money so that the pair would instead sail on and continue with their video log. The couple today has thousands of donors, patrons, who get to share social media posts earlier than others.
> The couple planned to spend the winter in the US ahead of new adventures next year, but thus have a winter in Europe to look forward to.
> 
> Greta Thunberg Outremer
> The entire crew of the catamaran is preparing for departure from Hampton, Virginia.
> 
> Many have expressed concern that the couple's children, Lenny, who turns one year on December 6 this year, are on board. But Jimmy Cornell is more worried about those who worry.
> "It is easy to transfer their fears to children, but the children are incredibly adaptable," says Jimmy, who sailed around the world with his children who were then five and seven years when the journey began.
> "Of course, safety has to go first all the time, but kids on board don't make the trip any more unsafe," said Jimmy Cornell,


https://translate.googleusercontent...700283&usg=ALkJrhh9gH2FJliteVd41FHdW7c8qAkshA


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

The translated article says


> But Riley said no to the reinforcement. Then I advised Greta's team not to go further with La Vagabonde, says Jimmy Cornell.


As far as I can see there's plenty of persuasion there.... Take Nikki or you're not going.

If the translation is correct then the article shows many interesting nuances.


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## Minnewaska

Some may not know the genesis of the Outremer "sponsorship". All companies of any size or sophistication monitor the page visits to their website to see what folks are looking up. Beneteau is said to have seen an unexplained exponential increase in the number of searches for a particular model. It was the model originally being sailed by Riley and Elayna. I don't think they knew of them at the time, but research made it clear that Sailing LaVagabonde YouTube episodes was causing thousands of sailing enthusiasts to look up the boat on Beneteau's site.

Imagine how good you'll feel about that, if you were Beneteau. I don't know if BGroup made any offers, but I vaguely recall that Riley wanted a catamaran for their next boat and other OEMs took note of Beneteau's increased exposure. Therein lies the deal with Outremer, which was publicly announced. It's not secret they made this sponsorship deal. They leased a brand new million dollar cat to them at some undisclosed discount. In exchange, they are required to feature the boat in some minimum amount of film time that was also not disclosed. 

Other popular channels, such as SV Delos, were also reportedly courted for deals. Specifically, I believe, by the manufacturer of their current vessel, Amel. Comments were made by the Delos crew that they ultimately did not want to be controlled by these deals, so they kept their old boat and their editorial freedom. On the other hand, SV Delos was the leading sailing channel at the time and has fallen to a distant 2nd, since SLV did the Outremer deal on the new cat (and started featuring their newborn baby in their vids).

Let's start a rumor that Outremer sabotaged their birth control. :grin


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## SanderO

It's all about the money. What you write is not unexpected for commercial interests who rely on publicity of all sorts to sell their product. Clicks and banners as well as product placement in media are how they are getting the word out aside from print ads of old. Word of mouth is way too inefficient to sell million dollar products. Celebrity endorsements seems to have currency as well.

We've moved to digital media / online to get news. be entertained... make purchases. YouTube became a revenue possibility to Jane Doe and YT... and manufacturers. People these days seem to accept this all as status quo and A-OK. News has turned to infotainment... even eye candy.

I suppose these sailing vlogs have perhaps turned more people on to sailing than they have turned off to it. They might inspire people to travel and so on. All mostly positive I suppose.

The back story is not as pretty as the one put out there with all sorts of ulterior motives and manipulation present.

As has been mentioned... sailing vlogs can be instructional, informative and useful to sailors. I doubt that brings in much cash. Why people are entertained by movies, or reality shows, quiz shows and such is anyone's guess. They are. They cost and they are produced to make money.... money to pay for production and distribution and pay the producers, actors and so forth. I suppose even free content comes with a cost.

They don't want you to know it's about the money. You'd feel manipulated and taken advantage of.

++++

What do you consume, see, attend etc. where you feel you are not being manipulated to hosed down for your cash? Are tickets to the Mets worth $500? to a movie for $25? to a Broadway show for $400? It's your money... spend it as you wish.

It's a nice gig to be paid to do what you like doing... call it work.. call it whatever.

It's all about the money. Money makes the world go round

++++

The thread was interesting to me for the discussions of the weather... the rest was social media blather.


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## mbianka

Minnewaska said:


> I think it's a bridge too far to conflate sailing vlogs with porn, professional sports compensation or low wage jobs. Those are social or socioeconomic debates. If I produced one of these vlogs and my wife was considered porn-like, just because she's attractive and appeared in the vlog, I'd be quite insulted.


We may not be too far from crossing the Sailing Vlogs and Porn line. There are some hints from the Lazy Geeko Vlog promo in this video I came across. Here is their spiel: "Are you ready to take this adventure to another level? We are!", "Our new server is up and running baby" with a promise of "special content". I don't follow them but, parts of her are going to be hard for others to compete with.  Below is a screen shot:


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## Minnewaska

mbianka said:


> We may not be too far from crossing the Sailing Vlogs and Porn line. .....


Sure. Porn exists. No idea, if that's what that vlog tease means, but it's entirely up to them.

That's a far cry from conflating every single attractive sailor in a bathing suit with selling sex.


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## chef2sail

The real motive now comes clear....money.....titillation....drama
All the elements of the current running Reality Show- La Vagabonde the Sailing Story

That separates them from Other instructional and educational U Tube endeavors
If you were among those who thought you were seeing an unfiltered experience, look behind the screen at the Wizard of Oz ( Outreamer)

This doesn’t mean it’s wrong or tainted.....it is what it is.....a commercial advertising enterprise


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## SanderO

chef2sail said:


> the real motive now comes clear....money.....titillation....drama
> all the elements of the current running reality show- la vagabonde the sailing story
> 
> that separates them from other instructional and educational u tube endeavors
> if you were among those who thought you were seeing an unfiltered experience, look behind the screen at the wizard of oz ( outreamer)
> 
> this doesn't mean it's wrong or tainted.....it is what it is.....a commercial advertising enterprise


nailed!


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## MarkofSeaLife

If La Vagabond is doing well for Outremer then it's not surprising Outremer is building one for Jimmy Cornell.

Jimmy is without doubt the best known cruising sailor in the world. And a completely different demographic than Riley and Elayna. It's a marketing pair made j heaven: the young sexy couple, and the old carmudgeonly suoer-salt to appeal to retirées.

One of my problems with Outremer is its too go-fast, too on edge, too uncomfortable for my sort of cruising. Give me a big fat Lagoon or that one with the front door and patio. But not the one with the Helm on the side-deck.

But this apprehension, and Cornell's demands, may be resolved in the future. 

Only one minor problem, Jimmy is not a Blogger, is he? Uses print more. It will be interesting to see what happens.


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## chef2sail

MarkofSeaLife said:


> If La Vagabond is doing well for Outremer then it's not surprising Outremer is building one for Jimmy Cornell.
> 
> Jimmy is without doubt the best known cruising sailor in the world. And a completely different demographic than Riley and Elayna. It's a marketing pair made j heaven: the young sexy couple, and the old carmudgeonly suoer-salt to appeal to retirées.
> 
> One of my problems with Outremer is its too go-fast, too on edge, too uncomfortable for my sort of cruising. Give me a big fat Lagoon or that one with the front door and patio. But not the one with the Helm on the side-deck.
> 
> But this apprehension, and Cornell's demands, may be resolved in the future.
> 
> Only one minor problem, Jimmy is not a Blogger, is he? Uses print more. It will be interesting to see what happens.


True,

But Outreamer is smart to also target another segment. The titillating stories which many of the "new generation" subscribes to.....their future buyers in years.

I am sure they thing long term as most successful companies do. To get the people interested in even purchasing a catamaran is no small task. To get blue water cruisers to purchase one vs a monohull ...another paradigm. Note: no value judgement and don't want to turn this thread into which design is best. If they can get with the glitz of using a reality video blog other generations to watch and get interested it's a plus for their future outreach

To be honest the Reality Shoe La Vagabonde does not interest me. Forget that it's a reality show mantra, I am much more interested in watching U tube experiences of seasoned sailors. Some reside here like Mark, Mark, Sander, Outbound. I used to follow extensive the couple with the big Hunter who traveled down the coast of South America.

Part of my reason also is that these old school sailors know how to fix what goes wrong on their boats. They aren't dialing up Outreamer, Balmar, Yanmar when the have issues. Being without that instantaneous support to me makes them more self sufficient .

I see this on a small scale in my limited coastal and Bay cruising. Some of my friends can tinker and fix anything and do. Their limitations are age ( crawling into cramped areas) and tools. Also some of them like me enjoy the maintainence part of owning a sailboat. Other of my friends call a marine tech for every issue. That can come from lack of time to fix things, lack of experience and some just don't want to get dirty. Many of them are the best internet researchers and have good technical knowledge and are opinionated, but if they break down somewhere remote, they have no hands on practical experience in fixing their issues. Also many of them are the first to complain about marine trades.

The people who produce these VLogs who fall into the do it themselves category have my attention. I continue to learn from them. I don't need the titillation factor from them. I don't need the interpersonal drama of whether having a baby influences their decisions.

That's why MaineSails videos are so great to me. Aside from that we met a number of years ago in Annapolis, his videos are no nonsense tried and tested SELF vetted , which you truly can learn from. They are direct and specific, as he is.

These other Reality Videos are ok for passive watching. I doubt you'd really leRn much, but to be entertained by someone else's travels is ok. To use them to question their routing decisions or use their course to pretend to understand and question their routes may fill somes need for it to be interactive Like the video games of this generation. You can travel with them vicariously from your couch and post your knowledge actively with no skin in the game. And then of course you can walk away.

The only negativeS to this particular Vlogs I saw where those who didn't recognize the Wizard of Oz ( Outreamer) and the pressure ( either overt or subconscious) that relationship put on them attempting this passage at a time not recommended by most seasoned sailors. Obviously two things came into play. One the financial relationship and two the lack of experience Riley had in saying no to something potentially endangering his family.

Only knowing some of you on line I would venture to say most would have said no to the passage because of the timing. And had you said yes I'll bet many would not put endanger your spouses as well as a one year old.

Crossing the Atlantic in off season against the flow is not the same as cruising the Mec, or the Caribbean . There is a heightened danger. Since most on here are very much danger and risk adverse ( a good trait for the captain) and very safety conscious, that reflected in the early posts. Despite that he pushed full speed ahead. Whether it was pressure, whether it was the challenge of going against the flow, whether it was ego to prove he could do it thus making himself stand out, I don't know. None of them should have factored into them going as a family. So it the pressure that having one million followers and that someone else would do it if he and Elena didn't. I don't know.

All I know is this could have ended with a far worse scenario. And those same posters from their couches would be vilifying these two for lack or judgement or worse commenting on that family demise.

Ahh the power of the internet and crowd sourced comments. Reminds you a little of the Hunger Games.


----------



## SanderO

Some great points Dave. And most certain thumbs up to MaineSail's work online. This is not only generous and thorough, but information any sailor can and should avail themselves of.

Vloggers may show a repair now and again. But that would not be getting more subscribers. Nothing wrong with a travel guide from a sailboat. Having said that I sailed to arrive and then go ashore and explore new cultures. Sailing from country to country and being like a turtle taking my home with me seemed way more appealing then staying in a hotel. I suppose most Caribbean visitors staying in hotels... do the beaches, snorkel and dive... power glide... bar hop and so forth. I really don't know. When I was out sailing I did connect with other cruisers and made some wonderful contacts... something unlikely from a hotel or beach bungalow. I was single and short handing and my life aboard would hardly make content anyone would be interested in seeing at any price (exception being the French GF who was topless all the time she was aboard which didn't last long hahahaha). I will never understand the appeal of these reality shows... especially Below Decks which wifey watches at times. What drivel!

Do you think people will run out and buy an Outremer or Cornell's books? I wouldn't!


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## chef2sail

Maybe Cornell, but he is way down my list.


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## Andrew65

This is why I posted my observations. It simply sat wrong with me to read Cornell overtly putting pressure on Riley with his advice to not be a part of Riley. Business deals or not, you just don’t put pressure on someone to sail such a journey. You do that if a guest is known to fart or talk during the movies. Thankfully all’s well that ends well, but what if it went wrong. Like I wrote earlier, “Oops, sorry” isn’t an answer. 

Mark, the translated article is good. I’m fluent in Norwegian. Swedish isn’t a far cry from it. It just takes me burning a bit more brain cells to read it.

I guess this saga of their crossing is a bit of the dark side to being caught up with sponsors and the feelings of obligation towards the manufacturer. Also towards ones cruising heroes like Cornell is to Reily.


I’m sure glad in that respect that I can do and have done everything fitting out my boat.


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## Andrew65

“It was the catamaran La Vagabonde that led Greta Thunberg to the Youtube stars, but the road there was not obvious despite the project being supported by some of the world's most experienced sailors.
- It was crucial that a professional skipper strengthen the crew, says long-distance sailor expert Jimmy Cornell, who linked Greta and the couple at La Vagabonde.”

It didn’t matter who supported them, Riley & co. were the ones taking the risk at their advice. I can tell my son how to swing a bat, but it’s his head that’ll get dinged by the ball if he doesn’t watch out when it’s coming his way. 

While I’m at it, in all the articles I’ve read about the trip, Cornell isn’t mentioned except in the Swedish article. Wonder why?


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## SanderO

I don't want to waste time researching Jimmy Cornell.... likely an assumed name. He's an opportunist or exploiter for sure. Some will be willing to pay him for what he does.... I wouldn't.

I think there are a bunch of sailors who had compelling stories to tell. Some did vids, others wrote books. Don Street wrote and published some useful cruising guides. I bought some of his work and they were helpful. Books, unlike vids you can thumb through and find what you are looking for. A specific how to can be indexed... and be in YT form. Why not!

I was upset at the decision by Riley to sail when he did. Seemed reckless and imprudent. And as Dave points out there were several wizards of Oz in this story and that makes it even more a turn off.

Someone needs to walk up to this turkey at a boat show and read him the news.

Any volunteers?


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## Minnewaska

SanderO said:


> I don't want to waste time researching Jimmy Cornell.... likely an assumed name. He's an opportunist or exploiter for sure. Some will be willing to pay him for what he does.... I wouldn't....


Are you really unfamiliar with Jimmy Cornell? He's written the most popular world cruising route guide and circumnavigated several times. Raised his family on his first trip around the planet, iirc. It's fair to say he is legendary.

His involvement in this passage is suspect, but there is little accounting of his actual role. It seems he was involved with planning or recruiting Riley, but also told Greta not to go, if he didn't take on professional experienced crew. Then there is no mention of him.

In the end, professional crews make winter Atlantic passages with some frequency. It's insane, but it's done. The big objection here is that self-taught Riley and Elayna risked their one year old baby to do so. That's on them, not Cornell, not Outremer, even though I'm sure Outremer was delighted to have the exposure, if not encouraged it.


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## SanderO

Minnewaska said:


> Are you really unfamiliar with Jimmy Cornell? He's written the most popular world cruising route guide and circumnavigated several times. Raised his family on his first trip around the planet, iirc. It's fair to say he is legendary.
> 
> His involvement in this passage is suspect, but there is little accounting of his actual role. It seems he was involved with planning or recruiting Riley, but also told Greta not to go, if he didn't take on professional experienced crew. Then there is no mention of him.
> 
> In the end, professional crews make winter Atlantic passages with some frequency. It's insane, but it's done. The big objection here is that self-taught Riley and Elayna risked their one year old baby to do so. That's on them, not Cornell, not Outremer, even though I'm sure Outremer was delighted to have the exposure, if not encouraged it.


Indeed I have heard of Cornell but know little about him except he organized some ocean rallies so cruisers could sail "together" for the passage. To many this provides more safety and I think it became popular. It's not a bad idea at all.

When I decided to do the ocean I entered the Marion-Bermuda race in 1991, not to race but to "experience" the ocean with the perceived safety of a fleet of boats with the same destination.

I have never read Cornell's books... nor know much about him. I had a vague understanding that he was an ocean sailor who had organized these flotillas and written some books.

It came as a surprise (I don't know why) that he was somehow involved in the Thunberg trip from the US to the environment conference. I can see how someone who is experienced and an accepted expert in ocean sailing might be called on... or might gratuitously offer to help out. Who in their right mind would refuse expert help?

But then I learn the intricacies of the SLV back story in this thread as I don't follow them at all. I recalled they had a French monohull and had a vlog. Now I learn that they somehow stepped up to a million dollar cat something they couldn't afford I assume. So there was obviously a quid pro quo. Outremer was "sponsoring" SLV for publicity. This is not unheard of... but maybe not at that scale???? I don't care.

In the thread there was an informed discussion about such crossings... weather routing and so on. Of course today they had sat comm and a professional weather router ashore. Why not? But who would advise Thundberg to hop aboard at this time of year? What did she know? NOTHING. To her mission sailing was the only way to go. I presume she relied on others to make it happen and with safety. Shouldn't her parents be "concerned"???? She's a minor still.

Upthread I learn that Cornell has a deal with Outreamer. Perhaps he's a millionaire now and can afford a custom cat. Who knows? Somehow the pieces came together. A young ocean racer was found to help the skipper. Wifey watched her toddler... and the experts told them where to go on the radio (I presume).

While the story ended well... and that's fabulous... there seemed to be something like "villians" in the tale. One of them was greed... another hubris... Of course all the players live to protect the environment. A story of triumph!

I could be wrong and I am often wrong. But the wizards of oz (outremer sycophants) leave a bad taste for me. Others may be impressed. I am turned off. Cornell comes off as something of a self serving pimp for Outremer. Nikki comes off as naive and not interested in the office and other politics. She was recruited to sail. And sail she did.

I wonder if any "bad" publicity will emerge from this tale or will it only add shine to SLV, Outremer and Cornell and of course the young heroines Greta and Nikki?


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## chef2sail

100% agree.

They were fortunate, skillful in this trip though taking the infant shows a lack of judgement IMHO.
There are many tales of voyages taken on here despite the risks vs rewards scenarios. Not all end well. When they don’t and there is a catastrophic ending the autopsy of it usually uncovers items like which in this case 

1- sailing to a schedule in spite of weather/ sea conditions : going against established norms in route taken per time of year. Pressure either overt or subtle from Outsider to complete the voyage

2- lack of complete preparation- it seemed they left fairly quickly after deciding to go when the previous plan was not to cross the Atlantic that time of year

3- lack of skill in heavy weather conditions- not enough skillful helmsman present with two of them

4- failure to adequately vet crew and passengers

Hopefully this is not turned into a success campaign and encourages their many followers to take unnecessary risks. The danger is that it will. 

I have never seen a Reality show turn into the death or serious injury of a participant.


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## SanderO

Dave makes an excellent point.

People who subscribe, read about the trip online or in the papers will clearly not learn about the stupid this effort involved... they will come away with WOW how cool missing all the risk that was involved. And of course it will be marketed heavily... look what Outremer can do... look at how it can be shorthanded in brutal conditions... look at how brilliant the crew was and so on.

99.99% of the consumers of this effort will miss what may be the most important lessons... about sailing for sure.

I suppose they will produce an episode of the channel... to entertain subscribers.


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## MarkofSeaLife

Minnewaska said:


> Are you really unfamiliar with Jimmy Cornell? He's written the most popular world cruising route guide and circumnavigated several times. Raised his family on his first trip around the planet, iirc. It's fair to say he is legendary.
> 
> His involvement in this passage is suspect, but there is little accounting of his actual role. It seems he was involved with planning or recruiting Riley, but also told Greta not to go, if he didn't take on professional experienced crew. Then there is no mention of him.
> 
> In the end, professional crews make winter Atlantic passages with some frequency. It's insane, but it's done. The big objection here is that self-taught Riley and Elayna risked their one year old baby to do so. That's on them, not Cornell, not Outremer, even though I'm sure Outremer was delighted to have the exposure, if not encouraged it.





SanderO said:


> Cornell comes off as something of a self serving pimp for Outremer.


Jimmy Cornell is 'legendary' and rightly so. He has done more for the cruising idea than any other single person, or group that I know of. Not only that, he is continuing to do it. The other old & bold are dead or retired, but he, at 79 is building a new boat.

World Cruising Routes was the first book to use old sailing ship data to show modern sailing boats good safe passages around the world. Its in it umpteenth edition and has a spot on my (very limited) bookshelves. Its fair to say that EVERY current circumnavigator has World Cruising Routes by Jimmy Cornell on their boat, or wished they did.

Furthering Jimmys LEGENDARY status is his forming and designing, and operating for many years the ARC cruising rallys of the World Cruising Club. These rallys visit every continent and and have multiple starts each year from the USA, Europe, Australia etc. This years ARC from the Canaries to the Caribbean, currently underway, has over 200 boats participating. Yes, some participants are new cruisers but many are not. As an entry avenue to cruising these rallys have been instrumental in getting people of all walks of life into cruising.

To denigrate Jimmy Cornell in any way is to be ignorant. He is not a pimp. Nor ought he be denigrated for his original name of Dragoș Corneliu Cișmașu was changed when he emigrated to the UK for ease of pronunciation at a time of less acceptance of migrants.

***********

I do think that BS political term "ill advised" is relevant to this passage.

We have said on this forum MANY MANY times that a passage should NOT be constrained, or need to conform, by times, by crew, or ANY other EXTERNAL factor. As you know I say "Only ever sail in the best season". Attached is a shot of Jimmys own book saying the best months are May and June for this passage.

Jimmy Cornell has broken every rule of modern cruising for a political purpose outside the relevance of cruising, and perhaps, commercially blinded by a presumed sponsorship with Outremer.
So 'ill advised', imho, he has put a 1 year old at an unacceptable heightened risk... and his dismissal of its relevance in the translated article is dumfounding to say the least.

The thing that sickens me most about political motivations is they cloud people intelligence.
Here a 16 year old was put at risk too. She is too young and has a diagnosed mental condition, both proving she does NOT have the ability to make life and death decisions.
To me its simple: Why is the life of a 16 year old political activist worth more than a 1 year old?

More a personal thing: I am the owner and captain of my boat. If someone tells me I am not competent to do a passage then that passage should not be done. To have a co-captain or someone to look over my shoulder is utterly not acceptable.
I think the reason why it was done was, again, for the commercial and political reasons. Disgraceful. 
As to reach landfall and people to say 'oh, Mark couldn't have done it himself'.
(This does not reflect on Nikki. I think she has done a terrific job)

Its wonderful they have achieved their passage, and achieved it so well. But it was wrong to do so. A family that attempts that trip next November because 'Riley and Greta did it' and dies... will be seared into my brain as un-necessary.

Mark


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## SanderO

Thanks Mark for the bio.... my knowledge about Cornell is limited. I am not nor have I ever considered "world cruising" so I haven't prepped for it in any way. It's great that there are books etc. about such things. Perhaps I went overboard on my characterization of Cornell. I was (wrongly) projecting by reading between the lines. This is not something anyone should do I suppose. So never met the man, nor read his books so what I wrote is not fact based.

Yet somehow, and for some reason(s) he was sort of a puppet master of this journey from what I read on this thread. Why? What was his motive since he must have known... given his experience... that his is the worst time of the year to make the attempt. We can surmise the motive of Outremer... publicity... the same for SLV.... more notoriety and subscribers etc. We know why Greta sailed, but not that she understood the risk. Same for her father. Nikki I presume is a gutsy young ocean sailor who loves challenges and wants to build her resume. Just a guess. Maybe she was paid?

What about the weather service? Aside from giving weather info is it expected for them to give green or red lights? I believe other routers do just that.... telling clients to sit tight,, when to go, where to head for better conditions and where not to for bad conditions. Do weather routers give routing advice sailors heading into the Caribe in hurricane season?

My own experience with routing was with SouthboundII and this was a free service from an amateur weather person, and sailor who worked from Bermuda. Many old salts will remember Herb and the great work he did helping sailors in the Atlantic mostly between the US, the Caribe and Central America. We listened to Herb and he gave sound advice. That was more than 20 years ago. Things have changed... we got all that satellite stuff.


----------



## mbianka

Andrew65 said:


> "
> While I'm at it, in all the articles I've read about the trip, Cornell isn't mentioned except in the Swedish article. Wonder why?


IMO the problem is we are so use to "pack" Journalism and those reporters who just follow the narrative. It was pretty much "The Greta Show" for most of the media. Riley and Elyana were sometimes just that "Austrian" couple. Nikki was even lower on the list. So when the Swedish publication actually practiced very good Journalism (Who, What, When, Where and Why) it stands out and provides a much more interesting and informative story than just Greta sailed back to Europe on a boat. Digging into the background as the Swedish publication did will do that. It was refreshing to read it.


----------



## Ninefingers

chef2sail said:


> I have never seen a Reality show turn into the death or serious injury of a participant.


You're clearly not watching enough of them!


----------



## caberg

chef2sail said:


> I have never seen a Reality show turn into the death or serious injury of a participant.


I'm sure a lot of people here have read A Voyage for Madmen by Peter Nichols, which is the story of the Sunday Times Golden Globe Race in 1968. In a way, that race was a reality show before cable TV and smartphones, and it did not end well for all participants especially Donald Crowhurst and Nigel Tetley, as most know.


----------



## chef2sail

caberg said:


> I'm sure a lot of people here have read A Voyage for Madmen by Peter Nichols, which is the story of the Sunday Times Golden Globe Race in 1968. In a way, that race was a reality show before cable TV and smartphones, and it did not end well for all participants especially Donald Crowhurst and Nigel Tetley, as most know.


It's now on my books to read list.....thanks

An no I don't watch reality shows at all. I have enough reality in my own life


----------



## midwesterner

SanderO said:


> Dave makes an excellent point.
> 
> People who subscribe, read about the trip online or in the papers will clearly not learn about the stupid this effort involved... they will come away with WOW how cool missing all the risk that was involved. And of course it will be marketed heavily... look what Outremer can do... look at how it can be shorthanded in brutal conditions... look at how brilliant the crew was and so on.
> 
> 99.99% of the consumers of this effort will miss what may be the most important lessons... about sailing for sure.
> 
> I suppose they will produce an episode of the channel... to entertain subscribers.


Yes, it's already happened. This couple, inspired by some of the video blogs, tried to enter the cruising lifestyle without much sailing experience.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...le-sells-everything-sailboat-sinks/326152002/


----------



## midwesterner

SanderO said:


> It's all about the money. What you write is not unexpected for commercial interests who rely on publicity of all sorts to sell their product.
> 
> We've moved to digital media / online to get news. be entertained... make purchases. YouTube became a revenue possibility to Jane Doe and YT... and manufacturers. People these days seem to accept this all as status quo and A-OK. News has turned to infotainment... even eye candy.
> 
> I suppose these sailing vlogs have perhaps turned more people on to sailing than they have turned off to it. They might inspire people to travel and so on. All mostly positive I suppose.
> 
> As has been mentioned... sailing vlogs can be instructional, informative and useful to sailors. I doubt that brings in much cash. Why people are entertained by movies, or reality shows, quiz shows and such is anyone's guess. They are. They cost and they are produced to make money.... money to pay for production and distribution and pay the producers, actors and so forth. I suppose even free content comes with a cost.
> 
> They don't want you to know it's about the money. You'd feel manipulated and taken advantage of.


I'm very concerned about this happening to me: The constant attention; hounded by my fans; having to make choices about endorsements; and the complete loss of my privacy that all of this will bring.

I fear that I'm very close to being thrust into the role of social influencer. After only three years on Twitter, I just yesterday got my fourth Twitter follower.


----------



## PhilCarlson

midwesterner said:


> Yes, it's already happened. This couple, inspired by some of the video blogs, tried to enter the cruising lifestyle without much sailing experience.
> 
> https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...le-sells-everything-sailboat-sinks/326152002/


They sank their boat, had a successful GoFundMe campaign, obtained another one, and continued their impulsive wanderings...

https://www.tampabay.com/pinellas/w...ass-theyre-off-on-another-adventure-20190218/


----------



## ThereYouAre

A bit off topic.

"Right now he is in the midst of preparing for a land-based cruise with a catamaran to be built on the Outremer shipyard in the seaside town of La Grand-Motte."

Is Outremer putting wheels on their cats now?

-Hugh


----------



## Andrew65

mbianka said:


> IMO the problem is we are so use to "pack" Journalism and those reporters who just follow the narrative. It was pretty much "The Greta Show" for most of the media. Riley and Elyana were sometimes just that "Austrian" couple. Nikki was even lower on the list. So when the Swedish publication actually practiced very good Journalism (Who, What, When, Where and Why) it stands out and provides a much more interesting and informative story than just Greta sailed back to Europe on a boat. Digging into the background as the Swedish publication did will do that. It was refreshing to read it.


Yes, it was refreshing to read. The journalist asked himself some very good questions to answer by digging a little deeper into the event. I was wondering why Cornell was never mentioned by Riley. You'd think that he'd at least give him a shout out and to at least thank the weather router. Maybe that was part of the conversation between them though. "Don't mention me. You take all the credit. Think of the increased subscribers you'll get afterwards. If you mention me, you may not look as heroic. You want to be heroic, don't you?". Meanwhile, Jimmy cashes in on his Outremer benefits.

Chef2sail and Mark sum it up beautifully. Everything about it went against good seamanship and for Cornell to be a big part of the arrangement was very surprising to read. I've been to one of his seminars. It was ok. He's definitely a legend, but still can make mistakes like anyone. Hero worship can be dangerous. Being a bug in Riley's ear was one of them, but thankfully it all turned out well. I also still can't help shaking my head about him being worried for the people who were worrying about Lenny. When he sailed, he could at least talk to his kids, tell them what to do or how to help. His were different than a dribbling 1 year old.

Cornell's book WSR has a spot on my shelf too. It's an excellent read.

I don't watch SLV because of the same reasons by many. If I watch any it's the little ones. They solve their problems and just don't throw money at it.


----------



## demongin

NPR lol it will put me to sleep


----------



## mbianka

Andrew65 said:


> Yes, it was refreshing to read. The journalist asked himself some very good questions to get answers for by digging a little deeper into the event. I was wondering why Cornell was never mentioned by Riley. You'd think that he'd at least give him a shout out. To at least thank the weather router. Maybe that was part of the conversation between them though. "Don't mention me. You take all the credit. Think of the increased subscribers you'll get afterwards. If you mention me, you may not look as heroic. You want to be heroic, don't you?". Meanwhile, Jimmy cashes in on his Outremer benefits.
> 
> Chef2sail and Mark sum it up beautifully. Everything about it went against good seamanship and for Cornell to be a big part of the arrangement was very surprising to read. I've been to one of his seminars. It was ok. He's definitely a legend, but still can make mistakes like anyone. Hero worship can be dangerous. Being a bug in Riley's ear was one of them, but thankfully it turned out well. Cornell's book WSR has a spot on my shelf too. It's an excellent read.
> 
> I don't watch SLV because of the same reasons by many. If I watch any it's the little ones. They solve their problems and Judy don't throw money at it.


I think we will have to see how the La Vagabonde folks portray how the idea for this trip came to be in their videos once they post them. Will Cornell's involvement be mentioned? Will Riley's initial opposition to having another experienced sailor on board be mentioned? It is interesting that we know a little bit more of the back story on the trip thanks to the Swedish article. It was a little more involved than the Riley just contacting Greta and her dad with the offer to take them across the Atlantic. I also wonder how keen Elyana was to make this trip since she has become little more cautious since having the baby. I think Nikki Henderson had an idea of what was involved in this passage but, did Riley and Elyana?


----------



## mbianka

PhilCarlson said:


> They sank their boat, had a successful GoFundMe campaign, obtained another one, and continued their impulsive wanderings...
> 
> https://www.tampabay.com/pinellas/w...ass-theyre-off-on-another-adventure-20190218/


I was wondering what happened to them.


----------



## Andrew65

The saga continues, eh?

I think Riley and Elayna have sailed enough to have known the risk ahead. I’m wondering what the tipping point in Cornell’s sales pitch was that finally committed them to commit. It came together rather quick, almost too quick. My money is on Riley having been star struck by Cornell and knowing they’d solidify themselves as a household name by being the only Johnny-on-the-spot to transport Greta to the dance. 

You’re right. The show isn’t finished yet.


----------



## chef2sail

Andrew65 said:


> The saga continues, eh?
> 
> I think Riley and Elayna have sailed enough to have known the risk ahead. I'm wondering what the tipping point in Cornell's sales pitch was that finally committed them to commit. It came together rather quick, almost too quick. My money is on Riley having been star struck by Cornell and knowing they'd solidify themselves as a household name by being the only Johnny-on-the-spot to transport Greta to the dance.
> 
> You're right. The show isn't finished yet.


Suspiciously.....or a film or book


----------



## TimMarks

midwesterner said:


> Yes, it's already happened. This couple, inspired by some of the video blogs, tried to enter the cruising lifestyle without much sailing experience.
> 
> https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...le-sells-everything-sailboat-sinks/326152002/


The story is even worse than that. Some kind soul in Tampa GAVE them a much nicer boat for free... which the couple managed (through much pain) to sail to just North of Fort Lauderdale... where they then abandoned it. Then split up.


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

TimMarks said:


> The story is even worse than that. Some kind soul in Tampa GAVE them a much nicer boat for free... which the couple managed (through much pain) to sail to just North of Fort Lauderdale... where they then abandoned it. Then split up.


Everyone has heard that story that lots of people who win millions on the big lottery end up broke.

I thought BS.

I checked it up, true. Many go broke including a guy wins $300 million, yep, $300.MILLION - went broke.

Loosers gunna lose.


----------



## midwesterner

MarkofSeaLife said:


> TimMarks said:
> 
> 
> 
> The story is even worse than that. Some kind soul in Tampa GAVE them a much nicer boat for free... which the couple managed (through much pain) to sail to just North of Fort Lauderdale... where they then abandoned it. Then split up.
> 
> 
> 
> Everyone has heard that story that lots of people who win millions on the big lottery end up broke.
> 
> I thought BS.
> 
> I checked it up, true. Many go broke including a guy wins $300 million, yep, $300.MILLION - went broke.
> 
> Loosers gunna lose.
Click to expand...

Similarly 78% of NFL players are bankrupt within 2 years of retirement, and 60% of NBA players are bankrupt within 5 years.


----------



## midwesterner

Well, it's official now, Greta Thundberg is now Time's person of the year. Let's all show a little respect now.


----------



## SanderO

Jeff the issue for me is not the skill of the helmsmen...clearly they are superb... but the fact that it appears that the course is strewn with boats... Depending in wind angle boats will tack and so this may mean that spectators need to be well clear... because a boat may tack at any time for any reason and they could be a hazard.


----------



## mbianka

midwesterner said:


> Well, it's official now, Greta Thundberg is now Time's person of the year. Let's all show a little respect now.


Time also named Stalin Man of the year too!


----------



## midwesterner

mbianka said:


> Time also named Stalin Man of the year too!


Well, she's in good company, in terms of having an impact on the world.


----------



## mstern

mbianka said:


> Time also named Stalin Man of the year too!


Not to mention Hitler too. IIRC, the Time Man (or Person) of the Year is not necessarily "great" or even good, just the most influential and newsworthy.

Amazing to me how quickly a powerhouse like Time became virtually irrelevant.


----------



## SanderO

People who want to influence public policy rely on recognition with the belief that the policies that interest them will get the attention they believe is necessary. Great may not be the best spokesperson for environmental science, but she appears to be the shiny object which will see her message receive attention. I suppose that any person who "protests" has the same goal. Individuals are usually ignored. Greta is not being ignored. I doubt this was her plan... notoriety.

Now Cornell and Outremer and SLV are literally selling something... and they DO need attention to raise the product's position in the market where they are competing. How clever they were to do this. It was no accident or gesture of good will.

Strange bedfellows you might say.


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

midwesterner said:


> Well, it's official now, Greta Thundberg is now Time's person of the year. Let's all show a little respect now.


Well...... Ummmmmm, Times opinion is one opinion.

As I think its good to have a diverstiy of opinions I shall quote Don Trump Jnrs tweeted reaction to the Time story:

"Time leaves out the Hong Kong Protesters fighting for their lives and freedoms to push a teen being used as a marketing gimmick.

How dare you?".

So, if youre gunna respect one point of view you gotta respect the other POV


----------



## chef2sail

midwesterner said:


> Well, it's official now, Greta Thundberg is now Time's person of the year. Let's all show a little respect now.


Respect for her cause and efforts yes.....for the LaVagabonde trip...no


----------



## chef2sail

mstern said:


> Not to mention Hitler too. IIRC, the Time Man (or Person) of the Year is not necessarily "great" or even good, just the most influential and newsworthy.
> 
> Amazing to me how quickly a powerhouse like Time became virtually irrelevant.


Time Warner---$56 BILLION DOLLARS not exactly irrelevant


----------



## mstern

​


chef2sail said:


> Time Warner---$56 BILLION DOLLARS not exactly irrelevant


Of all the properties owned by Time Warner (HBO, Cinemax, Warner Bros., DC Comics, New Line Cinema, etc.), I would venture to say that Time magazine is the "most" irrelevant.


----------



## SanderO

mstern said:


> ​
> Of all the properties owned by Time Warner (HBO, Cinemax, Warner Bros., DC Comics, New Line Cinema, etc.), I would venture to say that Time magazine is the "most" irrelevant.


so what?

What makes HBO, Cinemax, Warner Bros., DC Comics? To who? About what?


----------



## Andrew65

Time magazine wrote - “Late November is not the time of year to cross the Atlantic Ocean: the seas are rough, the winds are fierce, and the small boat—a leaky catamaran—spent weeks pounding and bucking over 23-ft. seas.”.

I do believe that I can hear Riley’s teeth grinding from my couch.


----------



## boatpoker

Greta's time would have been better spent in India.


----------



## RegisteredUser

Jeez...i hope there were no plastic straws in that mess...


----------



## mstern

SanderO said:


> so what?
> 
> What makes HBO, Cinemax, Warner Bros., DC Comics? To who? About what?


It seems my original point has gotten lost in the sauce. For better or worse, for over 50 years, Time magazine was a cultural touchstone, maker and breaker of politicians, "the" source for in depth news and analysis. I simply observed that I was amazed at how quickly it fallen from its lofty position atop the media heap to almost irrelevance.

My post about HBO et. al, was not related to the various entities intrinsic worth or merit; only to the other observation that "Time Warner" wasn't irrelevant because of its market value. My point in that post was that of all of those various business units, I would be willing to bet that Time magazine has the least monetary value.

Now that we've cleared that up, what exactly is a "Vegabond"?


----------



## SanderO

Monetary value is not important to anyone but the shareholders... or the owners. Obviously to reach people you need some sort of platform and to build that takes money. The interesting thing is that Greta is making a rather big splash... pun intended... with rather limited personal funds.


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

mstern said:


> for over 50 years, Time magazine was a cultural touchstone, maker and breaker of politicians, "the" source for in depth news and analysis.


As an Aussie I always knew I would be fully informed if I read the Sydney Morning Herald, London Times, Washington Post, New York Times, Time and National Geographic.

Now they are all biased trash. Except the Nat Geo which just sells expensive vacations 



mstern said:


> Now that we've cleared that up, what exactly is a "Vegabond"?


Obvious. A vegan in hand-me-down clothes.

Mark


----------



## mbianka

mstern said:


> ​
> Of all the properties owned by Time Warner (HBO, Cinemax, Warner Bros., DC Comics, New Line Cinema, etc.), I would venture to say that Time magazine is the "most" irrelevant.


I use to work in Rockefeller Center in New York across from the Time Life Building. I remember coming to work at midnight and seeing limos lined up and down the block. They were there to wisk those editors working on the next weekly edition of Time home. Now I don't even think they have a print edition. I suspect the Limos are long gone too.


----------



## RegisteredUser

Break wind too often on the elevator...suddenly you are riding alone


----------



## Minnesail

mbianka said:


> I use to work in Rockefeller Center in New York across from the Time Life Building. I remember coming to work at midnight and seeing limos lined up and down the block. They were there to wisk those editors working on the next weekly edition of Time home. Now I don't even think they have a print edition. I suspect the Limos are long gone too.


They have a pretty successful print edition. My parents get it. I prefer The Economist, but if it weren't for that I'd probably get Time:

Time (magazine)

List of magazines by circulation

You might be thinking of Newsweek. It went under and re-surfaced as an online only publication, and not a very good one.


----------



## chef2sail

Minnesail said:


> They have a pretty successful print edition. My parents get it. I prefer The Economist, but if it weren't for that I'd probably get Time:
> 
> Time (magazine)
> 
> List of magazines by circulation
> 
> You might be thinking of Newsweek. It went under and re-surfaced as an online only publication, and not a very good one.


Obviously someone still reads it with 3,000,000 subscribers in the US.
So I guess that metric means they don't miss some of you canceling your subscriptions


----------



## Minnewaska

Minnesail said:


> They have a pretty successful print edition. My parents get it. I prefer The Economist, but if it weren't for that I'd probably get Time:........


As noted in your link.......



> The following list of American magazines is in accordance with their paid and non-paid circulation


The thing you can't tell in circulation numbers is how many are actually subscribing to the periodical. These printed magazines are sending more and more complimentary or shelf sitting copies, just to have "circulation" numbers to attract advertisers. It's a losing battle, as the advertisers are on to it. The print mag business is in a death spiral and Time mag is clearly a shadow of it's former self.

I too prefer the Economist. Sometimes they go off the rails, but even then, it's thought provoking.


----------



## PhilCarlson

Nation Surprised To Learn Time Magazine Still In Print

https://babylonbee.com/news/nation-surprised-to-learn-time-magazine-still-in-print


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

The Bee is the best media out there. Way out there :grin
I love it


----------



## mstern

PhilCarlson said:


> Nation Surprised To Learn Time Magazine Still In Print
> 
> https://babylonbee.com/news/nation-surprised-to-learn-time-magazine-still-in-print


very Onion-esq.


----------



## jtsailjt

chef2sail said:


> Obviously someone still reads it with 3,000,000 subscribers in the US.
> So I guess that metric means they don't miss some of you canceling your subscriptions


Lots of dentists waiting areas....

The problem with any printed media is that by the time the information is gathered, written, edited, printed, and distributed, it's OLD news compared with what's available for free online. By the time you read it in a printed magazine, the story has moved on and what you are reading is often no longer very relevant. How do you sell that? Even with all the free copies that are sent out, and the dentists and doctors office waiting rooms, I'm pretty surprised that they send out three million copies.

I also wonder that all these print publications, from the NY Times to printed magazines like Time, most of which have a distinctly liberal editorial slant and regularly pay homage to all the PC deities, including those involving the environment, manage to justify the tremendous amount of forest that has to be cut down, the nasty chemicals used to process those trees into paper, and the fossil fuels it takes to distribute the printed copies far and wide. They cause all that impact to the environment to produce something that they know will become trash in a week or less and they repeat it every day (or week), while constantly expressing concern about climate change and other environmental issues. It seems to me that if they really believed in what they print about these subjects, they'd cease printing hard copies and disseminate their information online only. Their failure to do that and their continuing to crank out millions of hard copies every day that they know will become pollution by the next day tells us what their top priority really is. I support their right to make a buck any legal way they can, but just wish they'd lose their holier than thou attitude and be a little more honest about what REALLY matters most to them, $$$.


----------



## mbianka

Minnesail said:


> They have a pretty successful print edition. My parents get it. I prefer The Economist, but if it weren't for that I'd probably get Time:
> 
> Time (magazine)
> 
> List of magazines by circulation
> 
> You might be thinking of Newsweek. It went under and re-surfaced as an online only publication, and not a very good one.


Yeah probably. Newsweek became Newsweak and now is just online. Others like Colliers, Saturday Evening Post and Life are no longer sitting on coffee tables every week like they use to.


----------



## boatpoker

jtsailjt said:


> IIt seems to me that if they really believed in what they print about these subjects, they'd cease printing hard copies and disseminate their information online only. Their failure to do that and their continuing to crank out millions of hard copies every day that they know will become pollution by the next day tells us what their top priority really is. I support their right to make a buck any legal way they can, but just wish they'd lose their holier than thou attitude and be a little more honest about what REALLY matters most to them, $$$.


it's a given. The primary goal of any business is profit.
Many entities try to hide the fact that they are a business. See if you can think of a few


----------



## ronhughb

"Wake up Harold You've fallen asleep in front of the T.V. again"...Does anyone realize this thread has "morphed" from sailing to magazines??


----------



## midwesterner

mstern said:


> Now that we've cleared that up, what exactly is a "Vegabond"?


Vegabond is a cucumber based bio-resin adhesive used in various applications requiring a non-toxic substance.


----------



## jtsailjt

ronhughb said:


> "Wake up Harold You've fallen asleep in front of the T.V. again"...Does anyone realize this thread has "morphed" from sailing to magazines??


. ......and now we've gone from magazines to TV's! But if you have an aspect of sailing LV and this voyage that we haven't already discussed, and you'd like it to be discussed, please feel free to lead us back in that direction by posting something about the sailing.


----------



## mbianka

jtsailjt said:


> . ......and now we've gone from magazines to TV's! But if you have an aspect of sailing LV and this voyage that we haven't already discussed, and you'd like it to be discussed, please feel free to lead us back in that direction by posting something about the sailing.


I'm currently heading down the East Coast on Bliss an NCL cruise ship. I've been impressed with their environmental operations. All cloth napkins. I was expecting the bars to be serving drinks in plastic cups. Nope they are served in glasses. I ate at an onboard speciality restaurant called Q. Delicious BBQ and country music spot. The water glasses looked like the ubiquitous plastic Red Solo Cups that people use in backyard BBQ's They are actually reusable and are washed for repeated uses. Greta should have jumped on one of these ships doing a repositioning. I think she might be pleased at how responsible they are these days. Expect the 30 to 40 knot winds we will be facing tomorrow off of Cape Hatterras will be a much nicer ride than on La Vagabonde too.


----------



## RegisteredUser

Yeah, ok...but how bout dem straws


----------



## mbianka

RegisteredUser said:


> Yeah, ok...but how bout dem straws


I actually have not seen any straws in drinks so far. Though I did actually see a wayward drink umbrella on the outside deck. Just made out of paper and wood not plastic.


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

mbianka said:


> Just made out of paper and wood not plastic.


Paper and wooooooood. So, one drink costs 1 tree?

:devil


----------



## Minnewaska

I'm going to guess the cruise ships find it easier or less expensive to discharge grey water from dishwashers than to store and dispose of plastic. Makes sense. Did cruise ships used to have plastic?


----------



## chef2sail

Much less expensive for a restaurant if it’s large enough and has resources to purchase hard dishes than disposables. However you need the room, the Personel which are added expenses to be considered.


----------



## SanderO

chef2sail said:


> Much less expensive for a restaurant if it's large enough and has resources to purchase hard dishes than disposables. However you need the room, the Personel which are added expenses to be considered.


I convinced the owner of Copenhagen in NPT to switch from paper plates and plastic forks, knives and spoons to glass and metal cutlery. He made the switch and loves it... customers do as well. Eating on paper w/ plastic is tacky and wasteful... and probably more expensive for the restaurant.


----------



## mbianka

Minnewaska said:


> I'm going to guess the cruise ships find it easier or less expensive to discharge grey water from dishwashers than to store and dispose of plastic. Makes sense. Did cruise ships used to have plastic?


I seem to recall some with the ships logo on them. Have seen none so far this trip. I bought my own insulated mug. Good for walks at dawn with coffee and later for drinks. Little bouncy today with five to seven foot seas and some occasional rollers mug helps prevent spilling.


----------



## chef2sail

First of all there is much more to the finances of most private club than appears to the average person.
Most are built on a 501c non profit Tax basis which imposed restrictions like renting slips to just anyone, making a end of the year profit.

A club of this type cannot just throw its doors open in order to break even. Even the weddings and banquets revenues must be plowed back immediately to the infrastructure of the club.

In terms of being cheaper to use hard small wares vs plastic it requires a minimum of revenue to be cost efficient.

Labor is expensive in today’s world. A utility person washing dishes 40 hrs per week will cost a restaurant close to $60,000 in labor, benefits and taxes to the restaurant. A good machine costs $35,000 to buy and $15000 to maintain yearly. 

Then you get to the small wares. 3 dozen knives go for $140 and are constantly being replaced. Glasses are $48/ dozen. Plates even more. . You have to figure on 20% each year in replacement. 

Deciding to go this direction has its perils and risks. 

Everyone in general thinks it’s so easy to run a restaurant. Everyone views themselves as Julia Child’s. 
There’s a reason 98% of restaurants fail the first year. And 95% of the remaining fail each successive year to 5 years.


----------



## SanderO

chef2sail said:


> There's a reason 98% of restaurants fail the first year. And 95% of the remaining fail each successive year to 5 years.


Scale is always a factor as is market size. I have no idea of the actual economics of switching from disposable to non disposable but they worked for Copenhagen and it's win wind win.... the customers, the restaurant - employees and bottom line and the environment.


----------



## chef2sail

Increased food Bourne illness with ware washing vrs disposables.


----------



## mbianka

chef2sail said:


> Increased food Bourne illness with ware washing vrs disposables.


Have to add in expense for the lawyer.


----------



## SanderO

Fast food is the answer! Ticks off all of Dave's concerns ;-)


----------



## chef2sail

SanderO said:


> Fast food is the answer! Ticks off all of Dave's concerns ;-)


Lol....no...no...NO


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## SanderO

It's the Bourne Conspiracy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Ludlum's_The_Bourne_Conspiracy


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## RegisteredUser

Yet to be discussed in this thread...muscle cars and raising alpacas


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## MacBlaze

RegisteredUser said:


> Yet to be discussed in this thread...muscle cars and raising alpacas


I like my alpacas ripped. But it's hard to get them to go the gym.


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## RegisteredUser

Most ripped...goes to the ac cobra.
No question
Original testosterone fueled vehicle made

Love the different alpaca colors..beautiful animals


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## mbianka

Well it's official Riley and Elanya have hired an outside editor to edit their videos. They mention it in their latest video. Which also happens to be near some of my local waters in Montauk. I was wondering how the editing has become so much better recently. Will be interesting to see what he does with the Atlantic crossing videos the


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## RobGallagher

I am not a subscriber. (I do subscribe to Wynn's, Delos, Uma and Nahha.) I do watch La Vegabond on occasion and found the latest episode to no better edited than some of the previous I have caught.

I guess I enjoy the self edited 'reality' shows because they are showing what the film maker wants you to see, what is important to them. Even if sometimes they seem more like a well done home movie.

This show is getting lots of hype at the moment but I would suggest watching Uma from start. These two young people very good at what they are doing and watching them take apart and rebuild/repower and old pearson 36 is watching as much as their adventures.

YMMV/JMHO


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## Minnewaska

SLV has taken on crew before, with the express purpose of helping with production. Delos has former crew that went back ashore that still help with editing. She is often noted in the credits.


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## mbianka

RobGallagher said:


> I am not a subscriber. (I do subscribe to Wynn's, Delos, Uma and Nahha.) I do watch La Vegabond on occasion and found the latest episode to no better edited than some of the previous I have caught.
> 
> I guess I enjoy the self edited 'reality' shows because they are showing what the film maker wants you to see, what is important to them. Even if sometimes they seem more like a well done home movie.
> 
> This show is getting lots of hype at the moment but I would suggest watching Uma from start. These two young people very good at what they are doing and watching them take apart and rebuild/repower and old pearson 36 is watching as much as their adventures.
> 
> YMMV/JMHO


I check on the Wynns as they check out some interesting places in the South Pacific. Some of which I've visited. Also check out Drake Paragon sailing to Europe stopping in Greenland and Iceland. No desire to sail there but, I like their perspective as sailors checking out the local communities and navigation plans. Only subscribe to Delos, How to sail Oceans and Old Sea Dog. Have trouble keeping interested in Uma but, I do like they converted to Electric Propulsion and sailed across the Atlantic. Even La Vagabonde I hit only on occasion. Though I am interested to see how the Atlantic passage is portrayed. Seems like there are five or six new sailing Vlogs coming out every week these days not sure how much more the market can bare. But like Jimmy Buffet songs they are selling dreams for many people.


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## chef2sail

Living vicariously through others😁😁🏄*♂🏄*♂


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## mbianka

Looks like the first La Vagabonde video starring Greta has posted. IMO light on the details and nothing about Riley at first wanting to do it alone with Elyana. Before Jimmy Cornell advised the addition of Nikki Henderson to the crew.


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## MarkofSeaLife

Not that I am going to watch it but notice it's now de rigour to wear a national flag on your foulies à la spacesuit ?


:|


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## mbianka

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Not that I am going to watch it but notice it's now de rigour to wear a national flag on your foulies à la spacesuit ?
> 
> :|


Part of the plan to make Sweden Greta again!  In the old days sailors just use to write their name on their underwear in case their bodies were recovered.


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## Minnesail

mbianka said:


> In the old days sailors just use to write their name on their underwear in case their bodies were recovered.


Sailors wore underwear in the old days?


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## midwesterner

For all of the naysayers on this thread, who speculated all kinds of negative things like: Greta would pitch a fit if they had to use the engine for a bit; that Riley was burdened by a couple of lazy burdensome tag-a-longs; That they would all be in conflict; that Elyna would be of no help because of her mothering duties. 

It seems that Greta and her dad learned some sailing and seamanship skills and helped out. It looks like Greta helped with cooking and entertaining Lenny. It seems like they all got along well, and it seems like they all got into the challenge of seeing how much they could sail and avoid the use of the engine. As a sailor, I'd take that challenge. When I sail, I challenge myself to see how much I can rely on wind alone, and avoid turning on the "iron gennie". Why would anybody who calls themselves a sailor, do anything else?


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## mstern

A lot of posters were lambasting Riley and Elyna for being so cavalier about taking their infant son along for the ride. I found it especially interesting to hear how Riley felt about that responsibility. For those of you who won't watch the video, he seemed almost fanatical about making sure the boat was as prepared as possible specifically because he felt the weight of having Lenny with them. You may still disagree with the idea of them bringing Lenny along or even doing the trip at all, but I don't think you can say they didn't feel the responsibility.

BTW, this was only about the second or third SLV video I have ever seen; and I only watched it because of the kerfuffle that I read about here. I don't dislike them; they're just not my cup of rum.


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## Minnewaska

I guess I was part of the negativity that is now negatively being criticized. 

Anyone all that surprised that video was edited to provide the most positive light? 

It will take more than editing to convince me that one can be properly prepared to take an infant on a North Atlantic crossing in winter. Feeling responsible/guilty doesn’t change anything. However, like I said above, it is the parents choice to make.


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## SanderO

I am thinking that Riley has arrived at a place of over confidence as it relates to sailing. Of course not everyone faces a major challenge which tests their mettle. Zan who is a great sailor with much experience faced such a challenge on his recent passage in the Atlantic in winter.

Prudence would dictate other actions certainly with consideration to an infant. He could have flown his wife and child to Europe, assembled a delivery crew and transported Greta and her dad. And they still might have met with serious problems.

They were lucky and my sense is that this will only reinforce his sense of being invincible. He makes videos because it makes him lots of dough... and perhaps in this case it impacted his judgment. Having another "opportunist" and world class sailor who had a relationship with Outremer pushing this venture is also troubling.

I choose to not enable this sort of "behavior". YMMV


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## mstern

Minnewaska said:


> I guess I was part of the negativity that is now negatively being criticized.
> 
> Anyone all that surprised that video was edited to provide the most positive light?
> 
> It will take more than editing to convince me that one can be properly prepared to take an infant on a North Atlantic crossing in winter. Feeling responsible/guilty doesn't change anything. However, like I said above, it is the parents choice to make.


I'm not criticizing that point of view. I agree with it. I don't think any level of preparation would ever be enough to convince me that it was prudent to take an infant across the North Atlantic in the winter (or anytime really). And yes, no doubt editing played a large part in the presentation of Riley's feelings. My only point was that he looked and acted sincere to me with his concerns.

As you point out, we each weigh the risks/rewards, pros/cons, and make our own decisions. The fact that Riley and Elyna are living the life they do shows me that they and I aren't playing in the same league; heck, we're not even playing the same game. So I'm not going to pretend that I can understand why they make any of their decisions.


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## mbianka

Minnewaska said:


> I guess I was part of the negativity that is now negatively being criticized.
> 
> Anyone all that surprised that video was edited to provide the most positive light?
> 
> It will take more than editing to convince me that one can be properly prepared to take an infant on a North Atlantic crossing in winter. Feeling responsible/guilty doesn't change anything. However, like I said above, it is the parents choice to make.


Interesting that there was no mention that Riley was planning to just head out with Elyna, Greta, her father and the baby at first. When Jimmy Cornall heard that he advised Greta's father not to make the trip. That's when Nikki was added onto the crew. A wise move IMO.

Riley did have the right focus on prepping the boat even if it was rushed and stressful. Though the fact that he was still trying to secure the stored outboard at 12 midnight the night before they left says things were a little rushed to make the weather window and get Greta to her meeting. Also there was no mention of the leaking seal on one of the engine transmissions they discovered in Montauk. Though perhaps it was already corrected before they set out.


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## RobGallagher

mbianka said:


> Interesting that there was no mention that Riley was planning to just head out with Elyna, Greta, her father and the baby at first. When Jimmy Cornall heard that he advised Greta's father not to make the trip. That's when Nikki was added onto the crew. A wise move IMO.
> 
> Riley did have the right focus on prepping the boat even if it was rushed and stressful. Though the fact that he was still trying to secure the stored outboard at 12 midnight the night before they left says things were a little rushed to make the weather window and get Greta to her meeting. Also there was no mention of the leaking seal on one of the engine transmissions they discovered in Montauk. Though perhaps it was already corrected before they set out.


I think the "Greta" videos are jumping ahead of their normal video show. I enjoyed their last few videos so much I subscribed. If I have it right they jumped from departing Newport in the late summer or early fall to leaving the Chesapeake bay area after being there for a time. I believe the date of their crossing began Nov. 4th. Hardly 'winter'.

When I say hardly winter, I say that not to judge anyone or anything other than it seems that it was not really a winter crossing.


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## Minnewaska

Quibbling over a few weeks to the winter solstice is form over substance in the North Atlantic.


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## MacBlaze

https://www.yachtingworld.com/sailing-across-atlantic/greta-thunberg-atlantic-crossing-la-vagabonde-125068

A more sailorly view of the crossing from Nikki's perspective.


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## RegisteredUser

Gooo...drama...


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## mbianka

MacBlaze said:


> https://www.yachtingworld.com/sailing-across-atlantic/greta-thunberg-atlantic-crossing-la-vagabonde-125068
> 
> A more sailorly view of the crossing from Nikki's perspective.


The Lavagabond videos of the crossing have been kind of meh! Nikki alludes to some debates but none of that shows up in the vids. Only Elanya's virtue signalling and her once again looking forward to comforts of land living which she seems to relish more and more. Don't think she or Riley will be up for another passage like this. Hats off to Nikki who seemed to really enjoy the passage and deserves a lot of credit to it's success. I can't imagine how things would have turned out if Riley's original plan to not have any extra crew would have ruled the day.


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## SanderO

mbianka said:


> The Lavagabond videos of the crossing have been kind of meh! Nikki alludes to some debates but none of that shows up in the vids. Only Elanya's virtue signalling and her once again looking forward to comforts of land living which she seems to relish more and more. Don't think she or Riley will be up for another passage like this. Hats off to Nikki who seemed to really enjoy the passage and deserves a lot of credit to it's success. I can't imagine how things would have turned out if Riley's original plan to not have any extra crew would have ruled the day.


that would be

rued the day


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## mbianka

SanderO said:


> that would be
> 
> rued the day


Fixed it. On second thought "ruled" is more appropriate according to a definition in Merriam Webster: : "to exert control, direction, or influence on"


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## RegisteredUser

Rue is the later effect
Of ruled...in this case


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## MarkofSeaLife

mbianka said:


> Only Elanya's virtue signalling and her once again looking forward to comforts of land living which she seems to relish more and more. Don't think she or Riley will be up for another passage like this.


Its human behaviour by mothers to have a safe place to raise our offspring. Every animal does it and we are animals. Thats why the species that exist today are more successful than the extinct. And I sure don't think Elayna is a dill!! (Yes, a bit of a dill to have done this trip, but not so much of a dill she hasn't learned from it).

A few days ago I was thinking if I want a bigger boat. I clicked on La Vagabonds location to see if it was still in Lisbon and yes, it appears to be. I thought if I did want a bigger boat, and I wanted this type of boat, it would be the perfect time to slip them a quick message. Because sure as hell, Elayna has been thinking about it. Probably thinks about it every time a cloud goes overhead wherever they are in Australia. 
I deleted the "Bigger Boat" thread in my mind a few days after when the stock market caught the flu.
But I will stand by my feeling that if someone was wanting this type of boat in a good location at the perfect time coming into spring, without a broker yet attached, and before the seller knows their boat is even going on the market, then they ought to be flashing a message quickly, to Elayna... not to Riley. He's probably not noticed the clouds brewing on the horizon of his cruising days yet. 

Mark


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## chef2sail

Its human behaviour by mothers to have a safe place to raise our offspring. Every animal does it and we are animals.I think that's a bit of a sexist remark borne of past generations. It's not just the female of the species which takes the responsibility of providing a safe place for their children. The "Leave it to Beaver/ Donna Reed Days" are long in the past. The stereotypes of the past don't really apply anymore with both parents sharing and not having to fit in old roles.

Both genders bear the responsibility in the animal kingdom, whether it's building the "den" , protecting the troupe, or gather food.

Certainly it appears in LaVagabound case both parents seem to have cast aside old gender roles.


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## TakeFive

chef2sail said:


> I think that's a bit of a sexist remark borne of past generations. It's not just the female of the species which takes the responsibility of providing a safe place for their children. The "Leave it to Beaver/ Donna Reed Days" are long in the past. The stereotypes of the past don't really apply anymore with both parents sharing and not having to fit in old roles.
> 
> Both genders bear the responsibility in the animal kingdom, whether it's building the "den" , protecting the troupe, or gather food.
> 
> Certainly it appears in LaVagabound case both parents seem to have cast aside old gender roles.


As a USA citizen, I agree with you 100%. However, other cultures may be different. Australians, New Zealanders, and Europeans often have different norms. I see this all the time among coworkers and friends, but want to be careful not to stereotype too much. Just pointing out the possibility that things may be different elsewhere, whether we agree with them or not.


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## MarkofSeaLife

chef2sail said:


> It's not just the female of the species which takes the responsibility of providing a safe place for their children.


That's typical of the patricahy denying women another position of authority in the family that they have since since time immemorial.

:|


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## chef2sail

i think the point is at least here in America that neither man nor woman have no position of authority In the family over the other granted them because of their inherent sex. They are equal in every sense of the word. No one should be taking away the woman’s right. 

For time in memorium the patriarchal system set up by the men told the women they were to stay home and take careof the kids. It was their responsibility . It kept them from having careers, equal opportunity for jobs, as they were required to cook and run the household, while the men worked. It is precisely this which is changing in America. It is a difficult concept for many men to embrace but it has been changing. 

There is no need for the words patriarchal or matriarchal gender roles when all are created and treated equal. In that society all bear and have equal responsibilities. It takes nothing away from women to have men also responsible for the children’s well being and protection. 

Back to the thread,

One would hope that both parents on LaVagabonde would take the responsibility of taking care of the child. One would hope both would recognize and share in the responsibility of the danger the ocean voyage could have on their child’s well being and want to protect him. Maybe what’s happening here is that the father has not accepted his part in it, while the mother has. One would hope they both would take that responsibility , but if he doesn’t and she does and that continues , it may mean the end or them setting different life goals. 

BTW I personally questioned the decision making of taking the infant on this voyage. Maybe I’m to conservative , but I would never have taken my children of that type of trip. If it was dangerous or challenging for the adults it is no less for an infant. Many of us have given up cruising plans / use of our boats because children came aboard in our lives. It created a definite change as we no longer just had to think about us adults. Those with children certainly know that your kids care and well being changed the way you used or use your. boat. Most of us GLADLY sacrificed some of our goals ( boating ) for our kids goals/ well being. It’s possible what you may be seeing is her movement to this responsibility of having a child with him struggling with that. Course this all plays out and is exaggerated by the social media they have decided to post and share with the universe. 

As Rick mentioned this whole dive into equal rights thing may be colored by our own cultural perspective.


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## SanderO

I can't comment how how these share parenting roles. On the face it seems like poor thinking to bring an infant on a winter Atlantic crossing. However I met a Norwegian couple in Antigua whose two children were born on and lived their entire short lives (when I met them)... on their boat and I presumed sailed from Europe. I don't remember any details.

There was no necessity to make this trip... except to get Greta there on time... and that is just another sailing no no... schedules. Greta was in a spot and she and her father should have taken a plane... Oh the horror!... if being at the conference was so important. I am sure the attendees would still let her speak.

I consider anyone who encouraged or supported the decision had selfish motives... and the passage was ill advised... that goes for Outremer, Jimmy Cornell, the parents, especially the father... Nikki, Greta and her father. The only innocent was the infant.


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## MacBlaze

SanderO said:


> I can't comment how how these share parenting roles.


...



SanderO said:


> I consider anyone who encouraged or supported the decision had selfish motives... and the passage was ill advised... that goes for Outremer, Jimmy Cornell, the parents, especially the father... Nikki, Greta and her father. The only innocent was the infant.


Apparently you can comment on just about everything else though...

It kills me how most everyone in this thread seem to "know" the who, what,when, where and why about all the background and then turn around and claim that the only direct sources (Nikki, Elayna and Riley) must be concealing or manipulating all the actual facts.

Me, I don't know nuthin' - but I tend to take a more positive attitude to what is shared with me until proven otherwise. But you guys go ahead and knock yourselves out believing/assuming the worst.


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## RegisteredUser

'20...The Year of Outrage....another one...


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## MacBlaze

RegisteredUser said:


> '20...The Year of Outrage....another one...


What? Did I forget to put in a smiley face?

:grin


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## SanderO

MacBlaze said:


> ...
> 
> Apparently you can comment on just about everything else though...
> 
> It kills me how most everyone in this thread seem to "know" the who, what,when, where and why about all the background and then turn around and claim that the only direct sources (Nikki, Elayna and Riley) must be concealing or manipulating all the actual facts.
> 
> Me, I don't know nuthin' - but I tend to take a more positive attitude to what is shared with me until proven otherwise. But you guys go ahead and knock yourselves out believing/assuming the worst.


I only know what I see on my PC. I don't know the people, their vlog and so on. This is a discussion forum... so I shared my thinking. My thinking on the topic means no more or less than anyone else.

If people don't share their thoughts etc. there's not much of a forum. I would think that the OP expected people to chime in.


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## MacBlaze

SanderO said:


> *I only know what I see on my PC. * I don't know the people, their vlog and so on. This is a discussion forum... so I shared my thinking. My thinking on the topic means no more or less than anyone else.
> 
> If people don't share their thoughts etc. there's not much of a forum. I would think that the OP expected people to chime in.


I was going to let this go, cause in the big scheme of things, who really gives a rat's a$$ about people's opinions on media personalities (mine included) but that...that right there: " I only know what I see on my PC," that is what is going to actually bring about the end of civilization. Because if there is even a tiny bit of truth in that statement (and I know you don't really mean it) then you actually know nothing at all. Bloody computers actually make find good resources harder not easier: garbage in, garbage out has been around since the late 50s and we still haven't learned out lesson.

But I will shut up now. Please go back to you regularly scheduled programming.

:2 boat:


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## smj

They arrived safe and sound and Greta got to her destination on time. All’s well and the voyage was a success. I’m happy.


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## RegisteredUser

Entering a forum..a corral..notice if there is a lock
If so, know how to pick it
Some threads turn into Social Judgement Zones


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## SanderO

MacBlaze said:


> I was going to let this go, cause in the big scheme of things, who really gives a rat's a$$ about people's opinions on media personalities (mine included) but that...that right there: " I only know what I see on my PC," that is what is going to actually bring about the end of civilization. Because if there is even a tiny bit of truth in that statement (and I know you don't really mean it) then you actually know nothing at all. Bloody computers actually make find good resources harder not easier: garbage in, garbage out has been around since the late 50s and we still haven't learned out lesson.
> 
> But I will shut up now. Please go back to you regularly scheduled programming.
> 
> :2 boat:


You raise an interesting issue.

I am on this forum because I identify as a sailor.. a single hander... more than an architect. I have been sailing since 1985 on the same boat I bought as a new sailor. I have sailed tens of thousands of miles... done many offshore passages most single or short handed... delivered a boat from CT to Brazil and lived on my boat continuously for over 4 years... and a GF's boat in the Canary Islands. I am still learning and I am on this forum to learn...

AND to share my experiences and my perspective. I don't race and I don't know many other boats from direct experience.

I like to especially read the comments of seasoned experienced sailors.... there are several on this forum.

The vlog in question is a commercial venture. I viewed a handful of sailing vlogs and they are not my cuppa. But I think my experience and "membership" on this forum allows me to offer opinions about topics raised in threads.

I am not an expert and don't pretend to be one.

You don't have to be an expert sailor or expert parent to know that taking that child on that passage was a very bad idea.


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## mbianka

chef2sail said:


> Certainly it appears in LaVagabound case both parents seem to have cast aside old gender roles.


I disagree they seem very typical in the common role models of couples. Elyana is the female nurturer raising the child and desiring comfortable conditions to do it.

Riley is the male provider going out hunting (spearfishing) to provide food. When something breaks on the boat it is Riley who crawls around and gets dirty or climbs the mast.

It's not right or wrong it's just the nature of how things work out in most relationships.

The one IMO who breaks the mold is Holly on Another Adventure. A solo sailor living life as she wants with gumption and a skill set that is amazing. I doubt you'll see Elyana tearing down and rebuilding an outboard anytime soon.


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## chef2sail

I guess where we may disagree is to the typical roles. I think it may be because of our generational difference. We have many younger friends who have cast aside the old Hunter Provider/ Nuturing roles being separated between the two sexes. 

I would say that Riley and Elena are following the old model of their parents but it is no longer the norm and may not even be the majority. In most of our younger friends ( under 40) both sexed work and take the burden/ responsibility of hunting/ providing . The care of their children is split by both of them. No one of them has a majority role, it is whoever it’s easier for at the time, Both parents share equal responsibility and effort. In the end run it will be more beneficial for the children , particularly the girls to see their mothers in a more all rounder role so they can emulate them growing up. 

This is not an experiment but is something practiced by many cultures all over the world. It doesn’t take away from any “traditional roles” it adds roles to both sexes.


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## RegisteredUser

Husband talking to wife...

Will you have to go up the mast again?
Water is coming in. You need to look at this right now.
Which oil do you need for changing the outboard?
Do you want me to come up on deck or stay below?
Could you get us some more lobster today?
Where do you keep the snap ring pliers?
Do you really need to get all that blood in the cockpit?

Fantasyland...


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## SanderO

RegisteredUser said:


> Husband talking to wife...
> 
> Will you have to go up the mast again?
> Water is coming in. You need to look at this right now.
> Which oil do you need for changing the outboard?
> Do you want me to come up on deck or stay below?
> Could you get us some more lobster today?
> Where do you keep the snap ring pliers?
> Do you really need to get all that blood in the cockpit?
> 
> Fantasyland...


Tell that to the world class female sailors.

https://www.instagram.com/stories/just_livin_fbr/


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## RegisteredUser

SanderO said:


> Tell that to the world class female sailors.
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/stories/just_livin_fbr/


You tell that to the other 99.9%...


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## SanderO

RegisteredUser said:


> You tell that to the other 99.9%...


I am... I am telling it to you! :cut_out_animated_em:ship-captain::captain:


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## RegisteredUser

SanderO said:


> I am... I am telling it to you! :cut_out_animated_em:ship-captain::captain:


1st step:
Convince hasbro that baltic/med should be equal to boardwalk/park place.


----------

