# Catalina wing keel or fin keel?



## gwmontana (Jan 18, 2008)

Hi Forum,
I am considering purchasing a late 80s Catalina 27 with either a wing keel or fin keel. Can't sail in Montana in the winter to discover the difference, so I need help in considering the sailing characteristics of both of those Catalina keels. Would truly appreciate hearing from you who have Catalina experience and or wisdom on that keel topic. Your insights would help this winter as I look at and sail prospective boats on the west coast. Also, is Catalina still using that late 80s wing keel?
Thank You,
Gary


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

As I understand it the older Catalina 27's come in 4 varieties: std rig, shoal draft, shoal draft & tall rig and tall rig w/slightly deeper keel. I'm not sure that the shallow draft models are wing keeled models but they might be.
You can look up the different types here:
CATALINA 27 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com
For the Pacific coast of the US you should have no need for a boat with a smaller keel from what I hear.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

One difference between the wing and the fin is that when you go aground with the wing, it digs into the bottom and you usually stay stuck. With a fin, which is what we have, we have always been able to just plow through with no problems. 

Another difference is the draft. Your boat won't draft as much with a wing keel and that is usually preferable if you sail in shallow water.


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## jsaronson (Dec 13, 2011)

Deep keel = better performance upwind. It's that simple.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

DRFerron said:


> One difference between the wing and the fin is that when you go aground with the wing, it digs into the bottom and you usually stay stuck. With a fin, which is what we have, we have always been able to just plow through with no problems.
> 
> Another difference is the draft. Your boat won't draft as much with a wing keel and that is usually preferable if you sail in shallow water.


Donna,
This keeps coming up, but it hasn't been our experience sailing on shallow Barnegat Bay.

So far we've had no problems getting off when we've bumped bottom.

I really think the difference is overstated, though some claim a difference between mud and sand, that I'm not sure about as we didn't go aground with her on the Chesapeake.

Jim


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

JimMcGee said:


> Donna,
> This keeps coming up, but it hasn't been our experience sailing on shallow Barnegat Bay.
> 
> So far we've had no problems getting off when we've bumped bottom.
> ...


Of course there are no absolutes. As with just about any question asked about boats "It depends" is usually the best answer but very unsatisfying for the person who asked.

I'm not sure about it being overstated for those who sail in areas with mud bottoms. I've heard quite a few say that they got stuck and could only get free with help. I suppose sand won't create that same suction that mud would.


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## azguy (Jul 17, 2012)

As someone that just bought a C22 I sailed a bunch of boats before making a decision plus a few C25 and C27's also. Most had wings and a couple had fins and I do believe the fins point slightly higher but you also need good sails to get that advantage.

Like others said, in the Pacific draft does not seem to be an issue.

Overall, I would buy the best conditioned boat with the most upgrades and maintenance history regardless of the keel set-up IMHO...


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

If you're planning on keeping the boat in the West coast there's no reason to seek out a wing keel and the question is somewhat moot.

If you're lake sailing it would depend on the lake. If there's a prospect of trailering the boat to different regions, a shoal/wing keel will facilitate ramp launching better than a deep keel.

If there's zero interest in racing, or in maximizing performance upwind under sail, then a wing keel isn't likely to be noticeably different to you and perhaps you simply choose the nicest/best value package you come across, as azguy mentioned.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

DRFerron said:


> Of course there are no absolutes. As with just about any question asked about boats "It depends" is usually the best answer but very unsatisfying for the person who asked.
> 
> I'm not sure about it being overstated for those who sail in areas with mud bottoms. I've heard quite a few say that they got stuck and could only get free with help. I suppose sand won't create that same suction that mud would.


This always seems to come up with folks who sail the Chesapeake. Like anything else "best" really does depend on your cruising grounds and how you use the boat.

Not to hijack the thread but how did you make out with your new diesel? Did you go Beta marine?


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

Faster nailed it. It is all about whether or not you need the shallower draft that the wing keel provides. If you do, get it. If you don't, then either will suffice, but the fin keel will probably sail just a bit better.

Here in Florida it would be a no-brainer for me--wing keel all the way. Where you are...?


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

JimMcGee said:


> ...
> 
> Not to hijack the thread but how did you make out with your new diesel? Did you go Beta marine?


Yep. Love that l'il red Beta.


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

> I'm not sure about it being overstated for those who sail in areas with mud bottoms. I've heard quite a few say that they got stuck and could only get free with help. I suppose sand won't create that same suction that mud would.


I would think heeling the boat over to get unstuck wouldn't work with a wing keel. It would just dig that edge in more. OTOH, if you wanted to dry her out in tidal conditions, it would probably sit on the wing nicely.


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

Barquito said:


> I would think heeling the boat over to get unstuck wouldn't work with a wing keel. It would just dig that edge in more. OTOH, if you wanted to dry her out in tidal conditions, it would probably sit on the wing nicely.


No, it works, you just have to heel it over a little bit more (I have one). And, yes it will sit up, on the hard, straight up, with no supports (but, not recommended).


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## MikeGuyver (Dec 13, 2008)

We have a C-390 now after selling our C27. Both fin keels. The 390 has a 7'2" draft. We spent 7 weeks last summer sailing from Portland Ore. to B.C. Never had a problem with depth. Mostly what we found is a lot of rocks and very deep anchorages. There are mud and/or sand bottom areas but mostly we like to anchor in 20-30' so draft isn't an issue. I trailered the 27 and had her launched with a travel lift. Most of the ramps I found were too steep to haul 10,000# of boat and trailer up anyway. Unless you find one with a tabernacling mast you will have to have a crane to step it up. There is a nice 27 for sale at Passion Yachts in Portland.


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## mananamon (Feb 5, 2012)

I don't want to raise a red flag if it's not deserved but does the rudder on the wing keel Catalinas extend deeper than the keel? I recall a friend of mine grounding his C28 and bending the rudder shaft. That would be enough for me to go with the fin keel.

Again, I can't claim to be an expert, maybe some the Catalina owners can add some information here.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

mananamon said:


> I don't want to raise a red flag if it's not deserved but does the rudder on the wing keel Catalinas extend deeper than the keel? I recall a friend of mine grounding his C28 and bending the rudder shaft. That would be enough for me to go with the fin keel.
> 
> Again, I can't claim to be an expert, maybe some the Catalina owners can add some information here.


Looking at some profile drawings it appears that the rudders are as deep, but not deeper, than the shoal keep option, even with a deep keel...


image from sailboatdata.com


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

On my Catalina 30 (1995) the keel is a bit deeper than the rudder - not a lot but it is a bit deeper.


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## weinie (Jun 21, 2008)

I wouldnt trade my full keel on my 27 for anything. I can point just about as high as a j105 when my sail trim is dialed in.


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## engineer_sailor (Aug 27, 2011)

We absolutely love our mid-eighties fin keel tall-rig C27. We found a model with the M-18 diesel and low hours. Definitely want the inboard.

Josh


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## kwaltersmi (Aug 14, 2006)

I think most of the relevant answers posted in this thread. However, no one has yet mentioned the wing keel shoal draft designs usually have a bit more ballast than a fin keel of the same model. I think the wing keel C27 has about 220lbs more ballast than the fin keel. The extra weight is probably negligible unless you're a hardcore racer, in which case you're probably shopping for a fin keel. Ballast and draft differences also mean different centers of gravity, etc, but that's all too much math for my meager cruising sailor's mind. 

We recently purchased a wing keel C-34 and are very happy. We don't require a shallow draft, so a wing keel was not a "must have". In fact, I suppose if I had my choice of equal boats, I'd take the fin keel just because. However, overall condition of the boat was our top priority so the keel design didn't really matter. We don't race so I don't really care about a bit of extra speed or marginally better pointing.


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## nolesailor (Oct 29, 2009)

We have a C28 with a wing keel, which in my opinion is quite desirable here in Florida, where shallow water is everywhere. I agree with all of the above posts...the main consideration for a wing would be the depth where you sail. If you have plenty of depth and it is not a consideration, general consensus is that the fin will point higher, perhaps be a little stiffer, and be slightly lighter. The above observation is correct that wings are usually heavier to compensate for the shallower draft.

I can't comment on whether the wing is more difficult to get unstuck if grounded...but how often does one run aground?


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

mananamon said:


> I don't want to raise a red flag if it's not deserved but does the rudder on the wing keel Catalinas extend deeper than the keel? I recall a friend of mine grounding his C28 and bending the rudder shaft. That would be enough for me to go with the fin keel.
> 
> Again, I can't claim to be an expert, maybe some the Catalina owners can add some information here.


It's close, at least on the 42, but the rudder is shorter, but not by much.


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

nolesailor said:


> We have a C28 with a wing keel, which in my opinion is quite desirable here in Florida, where shallow water is everywhere. I agree with all of the above posts...the main consideration for a wing would be the depth where you sail. If you have plenty of depth and it is not a consideration, general consensus is that the fin will point higher, perhaps be a little stiffer, and be slightly lighter. The above observation is correct that wings are usually heavier to compensate for the shallower draft.
> 
> I can't comment on whether the wing is more difficult to get unstuck if grounded...but how often does one run aground?


Yeah, when shoal water is not an issue, the fin keel wins every time. But, when sailing in shoal water, give me the shoal draft keel, no matter how you configure it.


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## nolesailor (Oct 29, 2009)

"I don't want to raise a red flag if it's not deserved but does the rudder on the wing keel Catalinas extend deeper than the keel? I recall a friend of mine grounding his C28 and bending the rudder shaft. That would be enough for me to go with the fin keel."

Sorry, don't know how to block quote/copy from a previous post...


Concerning the above statement from an earlier post...while I haven't measured the rudder as compared to the keel, when viewing her on the hard the rudder seems as deep, but not deeper, than the keel. I would even say that the rudder is slightly shallower than the keel. This was all eyeball though. If a main advantage of a wing is a shallower draft, I would like to think that the designers at Catalina would have at least made the keel as deep, if not deeper, than the rudder. There are quite a bit of wing-keeled Catalinas here in FL, and I haven't heard of rudder shafts bending/breaking due to rudders being deeper than the keels - not the I would though...


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Nole... every post has a 'quote' button at the bottom of it.. click on that and the text appears in a quote box... add your text outside the '


> ' brackets.


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## bratzcpa (Oct 18, 2011)

Good morning - - whereabouts in Montana are you sailing?? We're over in Flathead Lake.

We have a 27' Catalina, tall rig, fin keel - - LOVE it. We're fairly new, and really like the stability that the deep/heavy keel provides. It points well. We have no problems with the extra depth of the keel (here). However, this past summer, we trailered it to Florida and went to the Bahamas for two months. The extra foot (of draft) was concerning many times there. But here, pshaw, plenty of water depth. 

Say "hi" if you get over this direction (Flathead Lake),


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## nolesailor (Oct 29, 2009)

Faster said:


> Nole... every post has a 'quote' button at the bottom of it.. click on that and the text appears in a quote box... add your text outside the brackets.


Hey...look at that! Thanks Faster!


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## CBinRI (May 17, 2004)

Go for the fin, unless you really need the shoal. The difference in performance is substantial.


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## FSMike (Jan 15, 2010)

I believe that some of the earlier shoal draft and wing keel Catalinas did have rudders that were deeper than the keels. I don't remember what years were involved.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

CBinRI said:


> Go for the fin, unless you really need the shoal. The difference in performance is substantial.










Well we certainly have different definitions of *substantial*.

This topic comes up a *LOT* on Sailnet, and I'm always amazed at the bad information and how many folks get their panties in a bunch over this.

Wing keels are a bit heavier to compensate for the reduced lever arm of the shorter keel. The idea is you apply a bit more force to the lever arm (keel) via additional weight to get the same effect attained through leverage with a longer lever (deeper keel).

How much weight? In the case of my Catalina 30 MKIII the difference is only 100lbs in a boat weighing 10,300 lbs. In other words the weight difference is not substantial. In fact I _know_ I have over a hundred pounds of tools, spare parts, clothes and food on board. Most boats do and we don't give it a second thought.

What about performance?

The PHRF rating difference between a Catalina 30 fin and a Catalina 30 wing is 9 seconds per mile because there is a *slight* difference in pointing ability.

Let's quantify that slight difference. 1 MPH is 3600 seconds per hour. *9 seconds is 0.0025 MPH. Would you call that substantial? *

The condition of your sails make more of a difference. More importantly *the skill of the skipper will have a much greater impact than the type of keel*.

If you're racing seriously you want every advantage so getting a fin is a no brainer. But if you're cruising in thin waters I doubt anyone here could sail two otherwise identical C30's and be able to tell you what kind of keel they had based on how they sailed.

As for hard groundings I'm on my second wing keeled boat and have gone hard around once with each. The first was a C22 that went aground on the Delaware River on what I would describe as a mix of mud, sand and industrial waste. We broke out hoagies and cokes and waited about an hour for the tide to lift us off. The second was on a sandbar in the Barnegat with our C30. It took a few minutes to work her off, but it wasn't a huge amount of drama. I can't comment on the stickiness of Chesapeake mud as I have no experience with it.

Bottom line - pick the keel that makes sense for the water depth in your area and go sailing. It's just not a big deal.


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

FSMike said:


> I believe that some of the earlier shoal draft and wing keel Catalinas did have rudders that were deeper than the keels. I don't remember what years were involved.


If they did, that had to be the engineering faux paux of the century.


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## salucas2000 (1 mo ago)

JimMcGee said:


> Well we certainly have different definitions of *substantial*. This topic comes up a *LOT* on Sailnet, and I'm always amazed at the bad information and how many folks get their panties in a bunch over this. Wing keels are a bit heavier to compensate for the reduced lever arm of the shorter keel. The idea is you apply a bit more force to the lever arm (keel) via additional weight to get the same effect attained through leverage with a longer lever (deeper keel). How much weight? In the case of my Catalina 30 MKIII the difference is only 100lbs in a boat weighing 10,300 lbs. In other words the weight difference is not substantial. In fact I _know_ I have over a hundred pounds of tools, spare parts, clothes and food on board. Most boats do and we don't give it a second thought. What about performance? The PHRF rating difference between a Catalina 30 fin and a Catalina 30 wing is 9 seconds per mile because there is a *slight* difference in pointing ability. Let's quantify that slight difference. 1 MPH is 3600 seconds per hour. *9 seconds is 0.0025 MPH. Would you call that substantial? * The condition of your sails make more of a difference. More importantly *the skill of the skipper will have a much greater impact than the type of keel*. If you're racing seriously you want every advantage so getting a fin is a no brainer. But if you're cruising in thin waters I doubt anyone here could sail two otherwise identical C30's and be able to tell you what kind of keel they had based on how they sailed. As for hard groundings I'm on my second wing keeled boat and have gone hard around once with each. The first was a C22 that went aground on the Delaware River on what I would describe as a mix of mud, sand and industrial waste. We broke out hoagies and cokes and waited about an hour for the tide to lift us off. The second was on a sandbar in the Barnegat with our C30. It took a few minutes to work her off, but it wasn't a huge amount of drama. I can't comment on the stickiness of Chesapeake mud as I have no experience with it. Bottom line - pick the keel that makes sense for the water depth in your area and go sailing. It's just not a big deal.


 I think the math is a bit off. 1 MPH = 1 mile / 3600 sec., or .000278 miles / sec. So 9 seconds x .000278 miles/sec would be .0025 miles (not MPH). .0025 miles x 5280 ft / mile = 13.2 ft. (Or I could be completely wrong).


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

Welcome to SailNet, salucas2000. Keep'n it real, correcting a 9 year old thread.


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## salucas2000 (1 mo ago)

I couldn't resist


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## salucas2000 (1 mo ago)

Barquito said:


> Welcome to SailNet, salucas2000. Keep'n it real, correcting a 9 year old thread.


I couldn't help myself 😄


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