# any frigoboat cool keeler owners care to comment?



## dadio917 (Apr 4, 2011)

Am thinking of abandoning our 20 year old seafrost engine driven system for 12V.

the keel cooler setup looks very compact , efficient and simple.

anyone have good or bad things to say?
thanks
Paul


----------



## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Have two frigoboat with keel coolers. One for frig -one for freezer.
Pluses
Low draw
Quiet
Fast to get to temperature after turned off
Simple

Minuses
Very sensitive to any moisture in system. Have had chronic issues with this. Will relate history below.
Short life to cooling fans over compressor. Very easy to change and cheap part but carry extras.
Very sensitive to having the EXACT pressure and correct coolant to function.
Have coastal climate controls. Way too complicated with multiple unnecessary features which are never used. Requires hitting two buttons very close together to reset. Hard to do correctly. I have big fat fingers. Wife is 4'10" so can't reach them without climbing on to counters so I get to do it. Annoying.

When on first passage with new boat the frig failed. Turned thing off and placed rag soaked in very hot water over capillary tube and it restarted. Failed again in a few months so cleared again. Good for rest of season.
Second season both failed. Got both going but then hired hvac guy to vacuum both systems and recharge. Worked for rest of year with hot rag trick needed only after defrosting.
Third season same thing. Had them vacuumed, recharged and dryers installed in both systems. Work done in Caribbean.
Fourth year no troubles so far except just before passage freezer would only go down to 22F and compressor wouldn't shut off. Now in the states so got local frigoboat dealer tech on the boat. He tells me in Caribbean they may use any gas available. Even propane regardless of what's said on canister. Also may overcharge system which is just as bad as undercharging. Finally pressure meters they use may be dropped/abused hence not reliable. Finally dryers I had installed in Caribbean were done incorrectly. Must be vertical to function correctly.
My system was overcharged. What gas is in it is unknown and indeterminable. We are starting from scratch. This Monday will vacuum both, and recharge to correct pressure. Hopefully that will solve issues.
Above does not reflect on frigoboat. Rather this is a device that may require you to get skilled professional help with good supplies and tools from time to time. Avoid any servicing from non frigoboat dealers. 

Last issue is the keel coolers. They are delicate things. Can't sand them aggressively nor coat with bottom paint. If you are in a high fouling area it's a good idea to dive with a wood or plastic spatula are clean them time to time. 

All in all after talking with other cruisers/liveaboards I would still have spec' keel cooled frigoboats. Considering what's out there at present seems the best choice in a full time application. Especially if you're concerned about electric draw.


----------



## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

My boat came with a Frigoboat keel cooler system. Probably original from 1985. Still works well and I have had no issues with it, but I only use it on my annual summer cruise. Agree with outbound that it's quiet and efficient.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Breeze (Mar 30, 2015)

The story from your Frigoboat tech sounds like it may contain some smoke. I have no experience with refrigeration techs in the Caribbean but a lot of the Frigoboat tech's advice does not sound correct for general refrigeration. 
First a little about my background: I have worked in commercial refrigeration since 1982 and owned a commercial refrigeration service business since 1993. I have designed, built, and serviced coolers, freezers, chillers, and specialty refrigeration systems (including one to cool the inside of a specialty window type to demonstrate the insulating ability of the inventors product) from 1/5 hp to 100 hp. First, if Frigoboat built a product that did not have a drier but was contaminated with moisture (which it sounds from your description) they should have had to clean the system and recharge it under warranty. Any service tech who opens your system should have a micron gauge and when he is pulling a vacuum it should hold below 500 microns with the pump isolated as a guarantee that you do not have any moisture in the system nor pinhole leaks. The appropriate refrigerant charge should be weighed in and then checked by either a superheat or subcooling method. Refrigerants are not interchangeable as the metering devices and compressors are designed for specific refrigerants and temperature ranges. As for the drier, most driers are not position sensitive, the only drier combination I know that is position sensitive would be a combination drier/receiver but if your system is capillary tube fed it would not need, and in fact could be harmed by the addition of a receiver due to excessive refrigerant charge. The best advice I can offer is to know the basics of your equipment and avoid those service people who cannot explain to you how it works and why it isn't working properly. Be leery of those who talk a lot but say little.


----------



## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

RMB
Above is my best attempt to report what frigoboat told me as well as local dealer. Dryer is to be installed in vertical position. Apparently works better when this is done. First failure was when we were out cruising but still in the USA. Other failures were out of my home country. 
Wonder if you ever have tried to get warranty work done when you don't speak the local language and there are no licensed dealers on the island you're on. You sail to the next nearest island only to find there are many hvac people but no licensed dealers. So you have a choice. No freezer or have local people work on it. We usually precook our meals vacuum bag and freeze them for passage. Foods a big deal to keep crew happy. Fortunately we lost an insignificant amount of food each time freezer failed as we have portable insulated Rtic bags (recommended).
Had a service tech on the boat yesterday from a licensed dealer/installer.
Respect your prior experience/expertise. However much not applicable in the cruising setting and apparently not to these very small volume applications. Will go with explanation and fix provided by local frigoboat dealer. Other cruisers say good things about them. Expect service from shops that are dedicated marine refrigiration dealers/service shops know the quirks of their products.
Think most folks understand the basic physics of expanding gasses, boiling points and heat pumps but appreciate your comments.

End of day frigoboat is a good product. Only have folks who know their way around marine refrigeration mess with it. Ideally frigoboat shops. Use only type of gas required by manufacturer, at pressure recommended, make sure no moisture is introduced and even so if you go cruising probably a good idea to have dryers installed from the get go.
No smoke there to my knowledge.


----------



## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Just curious after reading your last post RMB. How likely there's a pin hole leak if thing was worked on near end of May and what I believe is a reliable tech tells me it was overcharged when tested yesterday on 4August? One would think even if severely overcharged and leak was small over greater than 60d pressure would come down. Also thing worked fine through passage and until about 2 weeks ago as far as I know. Admittedly I don't check it daily unless I'm concerned about it for some reason. Noted compressor was running too long recently. Moved food into frig and turned freezer off being concerned about having the compressor running when it started to run constantly shortly after we became aware it was constantly on Way we picked up something was up was while making dinner. The controls are in a locker. Opened that locker to get freeze dried tomatoes and saw freezer was at 22F instead of 12F. Then checked compressor, listened in the box etc. and found compressor wasn't turning off or coming down to set temperature. Interestly still had ice and ice cream was good. 
I don't see any "smoke". Tech put gauges on it. Said overcharged, probably moisture in system, may have had improper gas put in it, at this point compressor maybe shot but he can't tell until it's vacuumed properly for at least greater than 4 hours, new correct gas put in at correct pressure and then run. Please tell me the "smoke". What should I be looking out for. Don't want to have to deal with this issue over the winter. Thanks.


----------



## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

outbound said:


> Have two frigoboat with keel coolers. One for frig -one for freezer.
> Pluses
> Low draw
> .....


Have you tracked the daily amp draw...say, average over a month...or have a figure in your head after the use you've had?
BTW, good post.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Breeze (Mar 30, 2015)

Outbound: If the system had a pinhole leak it would have been undercharged, not overcharged by the time you had it checked in the US.
Overcharging will cause flood back which washes the oil from the compressor bearings and can cause valve damage as well as broken rods or crankshafts in the compressor.

If it had been charged with the wrong refrigerant I don't think it would have produced proper temperatures for any length of time, certainly not several months.

Moisture in the system would produce a vacuum in the low side with no cooling as it forms an ice ball at the outlet of the capillary tube and prevents circulation of the refrigerant in the system. I would suspect you did have moisture in the system since you reported that placing a hot towel on the inlet of the evaporator with the compressor off would allow it to work again. That would melt the ice ball and it would take a bit to work its way back around through the compressor and condenser to the metering device (cap tube). 

A drier is merely a tube filled with desiccant, maybe some activated charcoal, with a fine screen at the outlet. Do they state a preference of the position of the outlet? I would assume that they want the outlet down if they believe the system will not have enough refrigerant to bring a solid supply of refrigerant to the entrance of the metering device, even so, it is the sign of a poorly designed system in my opinion.

A vacuum pump is used to remove all non-condensables, moisture, and other vapor contaminants from a refrigeration system. The level of the evacuation is determined by a micron gauge. Water vapor is completely removed if the vacuum is below 700 microns, industry standards usually call for a vacuum below 500. In my business we generally can pull a vacuum below 300 microns on a 1/2hp or smaller system in less than a half hour so I suspect that the Frigo tech either does not have a micron gauge or does not understand the evaluation of vacuum levels. 

As for evaluating the tech, it is hard for the layman to determine the proficiency of the people they deal with. It is hard for me to evaluate the proficiency of a tech who applies for a job without actually seeing his work practices in the field and hearing the explanations for the reasons of his diagnosis so I understand why you may have questions concerning my statements and your problems. In my experience less than 25% of the techs in the field are proficient or honest. Some have knowledge but no integrity, some have integrity and no knowledge, and others are just out to take advantage of everybody they can. Good luck and if you have more questions feel free to post them or I can send you my e-mail address.


----------



## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

Not sure what the mystery is, but those Frigoboat units use the very reliable Danfoss BD 35 and BD 50 compressors. 
Bad seals in the connection from compressor to evaporator/holding plates? 
Yes overcharging does have a detrimental effect. Very, very small amounts of R-134a, say in the 100 gram amount are all that is needed. I like to pump down the system for 24 hours. Seems that always works better then the quickie...that so many guys want to do.
Pin hole leaks? Sure. Does the tube set from the compressor to the evaporator/holding plate touch anything? Vibration and the marine environment are tough on the alloy tubes. When the tubes come away from whatever they are touching then a small leak occurs. In a pinch some liguid metal may solve the problem. 
Understand about the offshore "qualified" refridge techs. Have sailed a long way to get to somebody who actually knows what they are doing.


----------



## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

A & RMB are both to be thanked. Think the above posts demonstrate how intelligent, experienced people can reach contrary opinions. But more specifically the take home message is the devil is in the details so as a end user on a sailboat serving as a home it's wise to first judge if that individual has wisdom gained by experience with the specific system that's the concern. This becomes increasingly more important as the systems on boats become more diverse and complex.
To illustrate this concept:
Cardiologists take care of myocardial ischemia ( heart attacks). Neurologists treat brain ischemia ( strokes). Both are intelligent, educated and motivated to provide best care. Still one would repetitively run across times where there was a divergence between them in the simple management of a key parameter-blood pressure. Occasionally a cardiologist was called on to intervene on a stroke victim with high BP and they would lower it to normal values. The neurologist would suggest no intervention or even holding BP meds to allow the BP to rise. Both understand laminar flow and fluid dynamics. Both understand the biology of ischemia. But in the very specific setting of stroke depending on the specifics of that individual case one maybe able to decrease the ischemic penumbra and ultimately amount of brain tissue lost by allowing a higher BP. Here you have one saying one thing - lower BP and another the opposite- allow brain auto regulation or intervene to raise BP. 
The one with specific experience and knowledge of that specific system is the one to listen to.
The last line of the above post is wisdom. See nothing junior about your membership. Problem I still have is determing who that person who knows what their doing is. Hoping that will come with time.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Breeze (Mar 30, 2015)

The problem with using vacuum pump without a micron gauge is that you cannot determine the level of evacuation. If you have a pinhole leak, moisture contamination, or even excessive refrigerant in the oil from an overcharge condition, you cannot tell simply by the time factor if all of the contaminants have been removed. You also cannot tell the condition of the vacuum pump. I normally test my pump with the micron gauge monthly to determine if my gauge set, hoses, and pump are in good condition. Any good working vacuum pump should be able to pull a manifold gauge set with 5' hoses into less than 50 microns of vacuum within 2 minutes. If not, something is not right. Hoses are often overlooked as a source for contamination as age, normal wear, and the UV rays from sunlight can cause deterioration of the hose making it permeable by gases. I learned this the hard way early in my refrigeration career when I could not find what I thought was a very small leak in a system I had just installed. While spraying leak detector solution near the access ports some of the solution landed on my hoses and proceeded to run down them, leaving a path of small white foam balls from microscopic perforations in the hose and liner. I know replace my hoses annually. Little things make big differences.


----------



## dadio917 (Apr 4, 2011)

well....all these responses have me relooking at the air cooled seafrost BD system with optional water cooling.

btw...appreciate all the responses. too many options on this stuff!


----------



## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

Keep in mind that most of the discussion above about evacuation, charging, etc. applies to all refrigeration systems - air-cooled, water-cooled, or keel-cooled. And most of the marine refrigeration companies seem to use the same brand compressor (Danfoss) so they are more similar than they are different.


----------



## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Some follow up. We had tech placed both on vacuum for >6h. Figured no real extra cost. Both came right down and stayed there. Then replaced gas. Carefully bent driers to be vertical. Set frig at 38F and freezer at 12F. So far so good ��.

btw- all the techs,even the ones in the Caribbean, used micron gauges. Even good tools are only as good as the person holding them.
Boat is 4 years old. Tubing is copper. Entirely hidden in living spaces. Compressors are in work room/ utility room. Get as much tan as my behind ( yes I have tan lines even in the French islands). Therefore think problem was initially moisture or particulate or oil. Probably just moisture. Then improper evacuation of system. Then possibly improper gas and definitely improper pressure when recharged. Think fundamental systems are fine. Nothing bad to say about Frigoboat. Would not take it off your short list.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I'm pretty sure that Frigiboat keel coolers are the standard others are measured by these days. Don't let a few maintenance stories set the tone. All boat systems will require maintenance. 

Indeed, both of our frigiboat keel coolers needed to be dried out and recharged. The tech left the driver running for a day. I think he said it was heated nitrogen, circulating through a desiccant. He also installed a permanent drier. But that was when the system was between 10 and 12 years old. Nothing recurring. Not super expensive either. 

I do understand Out's suspicion of techs. Since we are both in RI, it's not impossible to think we've used some of the same. My HVAC guys name is Scott. He also told me that one of my heat pumps was shot and needed replacing. It was and still is the best functioning one aboard. That was three years ago. I am always on guard.


----------



## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

I will add to the discussion that I was considering converting one of my two existing ice boxes with a Frigoboat system, but went in another direction. Price for the components of the Frigoboat was close to $3K, plus installation, and I would lose an icebox. I decided against it because of price (hey, my income is derived from teaching sailing, and occasional electrical gigs part-time - see my sig.), the need to put another hole in the hull (and a strainer and hose clamps, and on-and-on), and maintenance concerns.

Instead, I bought a 50 quart 12VDC Dometic refrigerator, which fits PERFECTLY under my Nav Station. Installation was as simple as installing an 8A breaker (the most that this thing will ever draw), a 12VDC outlet to plug it into, and a strap to secure it. It uses the same Danfoss BD35 compressor that the Frigoboat system uses, and it displays error messages on the panel if there is an issue. It is VERY quiet and the TOTAL cost was..... $680! I could buy 4 of these, have cash left over to put food in them, and it would still cost less than the Frigoboat system.

In one season of use, I would estimate the total electrical draw to be about 20AH/day to maintain 32ºF while bopping around Narragansett Bay. So far it has worked like a charm. The _only_ issue is if I try to start the motor shortly after I start the refrigerator. If I do, the error message (#3) indicates that the rotor is blocked or the differential pressure in the refrigeration system is too high (>5 bar)). I clear this by shutting the refrigerator off for about 2 minutes and then restart.


----------



## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Minnewaska said:


> I'm pretty sure that Frigiboat keel coolers are the standard others are measured by these days. Don't let a few maintenance stories set the tone. All boat systems will require maintenance.


I installed our air-cooled AB system 12yrs ago and haven't thought about it since. I'm not sure what maintenance one should expect in a reefer system. I don't expect any at all.

While we don't have a Frigoboat system, I believe every single boat we have met that were struggling with their refrigeration have a Frigoboat - and we have met very many. The problem is always the same: ice or other junk blocking the cap tube. One of the main reasons is that the o-rings in their reusable connectors start to leak and should be replaced every 5yrs. Other less common reasons seem more difficult to pin down, but appear to do with their keel cooler.

This is a well-know and common problem now with this system, and I believe Frigoboat attempted to fix it in the past couple of years by installing an additional drier on the discharge line. So maybe their current systems will not have this issue. Particularly if one stays abreast of the o-ring maintenance.

I don't know what makes a "standard" and why Frigoboat would be considered such. Our air-cooled BD50 AB system runs a 10F 4cf freezer spilling over to a 34F 6cf reefer and uses 40-60Ah/day - the difference being whether we are in the Bahamas in winter (40Ah/day) or Panama in summer (60Ah/day). In New England summer, it used ~30Ah/day.

Mark


----------



## dadio917 (Apr 4, 2011)

I'm really leaning away from keel or water cooling now and thinking air cooling will be just fine especially given ducting intake air from the bilge. So now the question becomes cold plate or evaporator which kind of leads to seafrost or dometic. 

Big advantage of cold plate is being able to locate the compressor farther away (15-20')than for a evaporator (I think 6-9'). I already have a seafrost AC (for dockside) compressor mounted under our aft lazerette. A space not used or really useable for anything else. So if I stick with a cold plate I could put the new compressor there and not give up any storage space in our little boat.

So the next question, which I should probably do a new post for, is does anybody have comments on cold plate versus evaporators? The 'new' cold plates from seafrost are only 1/2" think versus our old 4" thick. Would fit fine in out fridge which is a top access 8.5cu ft box divided fairly equally between freezer and fridge.

There is probably at least $1k difference between a domitec cold machine setup and seafrost. But i'm not all that tight of a budget.


----------



## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

You have more choices than the two you list - for both evaporator and holding plate systems.

Waeco sells custom evaporators, so I don't think you are limited to short tubing runs with evaporators. Ours is definitely longer than 6-9' - I'm guessing 15'. However, there may be some practical limit to tubing length in evaporator systems due to gas volume limitations.

The main operational difference between the two is how the coolant is controlled - typically a thermostatic expansion valve for holding plate systems, and a restrictive capillary tube for evaporator systems. The TXV is less susceptible to plugging and contaminants and is adjustable. It is also more expensive and arguably more complicated. There are good arguments on both sides of this, although neither side will agree with the other...

The main practical difference between holding plate and evaporator is how you power the system. If you have large amounts of electrical production in timed intervals like generator or engine runs, then holding plates will store that energy when available and use it when it isn't. If you have more continual energy production, like solar and wind, then evaporators can be a better choice.

For a well-found cruising boat, particularly with current equipment, I don't really think there is a lot of practical difference between the two types in terms of energy usage.

Regardless of what the different manufacturers tell you, 95% of efficient refrigeration is a well-designed and well-insulated box. Another 4.9% is proper installation of the compressor. Get these right, and which particular system you install will not matter.

Mark


----------



## dadio917 (Apr 4, 2011)

thanks mark,
currently have 160W of solar and ~550+AH of batteries. Am looking to double the solar.

Spec on the fridge from the owners manual is 4" of closed cell foam. Not sure how accurate that is. 

Box is split into two roughly equal 4.2cu ft chambers, with cold plate on the "freezer" side.

Was thinking cold plates could be charged during the day via solar then compressor off at night via a timer thus limiting cycling the batteries.


----------



## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Turning any type of reefer system off during the night doesn't save any energy, and generally uses more. If the batteries can't last during overnight cycling, either the reefer is massively inefficient, or there isn't enough battery capacity.

To operate a 4cf freezer with a spillover to a 4cf reefer will require a custom evaporator bent around at least 3 sides of the reefer, and a BD50 compressor. A "box" evaporator or single wall one won't be enough. A holding plate system may work better, but may take up more space inside because I don't think a single plate will be sufficient unless it is also custom sized.

Besides insulation, placement of the box greatly effects efficiency. If the box is next to a dark hull side or engine compartment, it could use more energy than one standing in free space.

Best thing is to contact some of the manufacturers like Cool Blue, Waeco, etc, give them your box sizes, insulation, placement, etc, and let them make recommendations. I've found many of them to be quite accurate at this.

Mark


----------



## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

colemj said:


> Turning any type of reefer system off during the night doesn't save any energy, and generally uses more. .....


It will cost more energy to get you back to desired temp if you shut it down at night. That can make a real mess of things.
Very true.


----------



## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Oh, I forgot to mention one feature of the Dometic refrigerator; the power supply has an integrated voltage sensor. You can choose HI, MED or LOW cutoff. On High, the refrigerator will shut off when the available voltage reaches 12.0 volts, and will not restart until the available voltage exceeds 12.6 volts. The power supply will also run the unit off 110VAC, and it places a priority on switching over to AC power for operation rather than continuing to draw DC.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Breeze (Mar 30, 2015)

To add to Colemj's comments the cold plate is actually less efficient due to the fact of physics (the controlling laws of refrigeration) that as the evaporator temperature drops (yes a cold plate is still the evaporator as refrigerant is being converted from a liquid to a vapor, ie: evaporating) so does the capacity of the compressor as the ratio of incoming pressure to discharge pressure increases. The advantage of the cold plate is that it will continue to absorb heat and keep the contents of your refrigerator or freezer at an acceptable level long after the compressor has shut down, depending on the mass and the type of the eutectic fluid used in the plate.


----------



## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

The OP might want to consider that the standard length of the tube set, from compressor to evaporator is 2m or 6'6". This may make it difficult to mount in a remote location.

Since you will be spending about a BOAT buck on this project, spend an extra 100 bucks on re insulating the box. Not sure if your voyaging will get you out of lake tahoe, warmer climes play havoc with the duty cycle and increased energy requirements. Your batteries will be a lot happier too.

Those quick connect/disconnect fittings are good for maybe one additional connection after the initial install. I replaced mine with some better connectors.

The Dometic, also badged as Waeco use aluminum tubes, coated with a white plastic type coating. Make sure to pad, support and keep these tubes from touching anything. Very thin walled tubes, easy to develop leaks. Salt water also plays havoc with the alloy tubes. 
The Adler Barber units still use copper tubes. A bit more money for the AB units.


----------



## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Regardless of what you do would think about having two systems with two boxes divided by a removable slide out insulated board. This permits no loss of food if one should fail. We also carry insulated bags. Use Rtic rather than the ones with the role up tops. The Rtic are rectangular so hold more, work as well and are cheaper. Used to carry provisions but also backup if refrigeration troubles or g-d forbid electrical troubles.


----------



## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

A my quick connectors have now been used repetitively. Should I replace them now while I have the opportunity? Would expect it would mean recharging the systems yet again. Arrgh


----------



## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

I think it is only the o-rings that need replacing, not the entire connector. Can't the o-rings on the Frigoboat be replaced without loss of refrigerant?

Mark


----------



## Rocky Mountain Breeze (Mar 30, 2015)

We do not use quick connectors with any refrigeration system but cut them out during installation. How many times is a refrigeration system removed during its lifetime? I would think not many. We only service systems that have failed in the commercial world. Is it common for sailboaters to remove and reinstall their refrigeration systems due to other reasons? I cannot fathom how you would replace the o-rings in a line set coupling without losing refrigerant or requiring an evacuation.


----------



## dadio917 (Apr 4, 2011)

ok..here is a question that demonstrates my ignorance....if you have a fitting that leaks and you need to replace an o ring, can that be done by the boat owner in the middle of nowhere accompanied by a wrench or two and a can of refrigerant? Or does it need a tech with special equipment?

I want a system that I can do the maintenance on.

As for several comments on holding plate systems and not running a compressor at night....this is how our current engine driven cold plate seafrost system works. We can go a couple days without running the engine and recharging the cold plate and everything stays frozen. Have done this many times in 90+ degree days and 70 degree nights. So going 10-12 hours during the night without a compressor running (i.e. running only during solar hours only) seems easy with a cold plate system. 

Would not swap our current system except it is 20 years old and with solar we have excess electrons but only finite (70gal) fuel tanks.
Paul
Sugar Pine
Valiant 39 currently SF bay


----------



## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

Inside the OEM, quick disconnect fittings is a male fitting in one end, and in the other end is a female fitting. As you tighten the coupling the male side enters the female, allowing coolant to flow flow through. When disconnected the female side closes up...So this push pull fitting sometimes goes bad. Yes, there is an O ring on the female side that goes around the male fitting. I don't think this O ring is the key failure point. Could it be replaced? Maybe. The O ring fits in a little groove. I don't see how you'd get one back in with out damaging it. 

A few pictures of the fitting in question.


----------



## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Thanks again aeventy. Your contributions are greatly appreciated. Seems you have deep knowledge and experience in marine refrigeration.

Update. As noted above swapped out gas after vacuuming. Once again same issue. Waited the obligate 24 h for system to settle down. Manual says wait that 24h before judging effect of any changes in temperature settings or manipulation. Now at setting of 14F goes down to 17F and compressor doesn't turn off. Frig which was purged as well runs perfectly.

Boat hasn't been out of the water since April 2016. There is growth on the keel coolers. Manual says put no paint on them.
? Could growth on coolers have this degree of impact on function?
? In fact is it alright to put something on keel coolers? Perhaps transducer paint?
? Any other thoughts about how to pursue this problem?


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

dadio917 said:


> ok..here is a question that demonstrates my ignorance....if you have a fitting that leaks and you need to replace an o ring, can that be done by the boat owner in the middle of nowhere accompanied by a wrench or two and a can of refrigerant?........


You might make a quick fix, but likely will do more damage in the process. Proper HVAC service requires specialized tools and knowledge. I have a set of books, written on the topic for the cruiser with average or better mechanical skills (which you need in the middle of nowhere anyway). I think they are good. Here's the guys website.

Kollmann Marine

The two best mechanical skills to have, imo, while cruising, are HVAC and Diesel repair. You'll be in demand and can barter for all sorts of stuff you also can't find in great supply in the middle of no where. You'll need to stock the tools and gasses for HVAC, but you'd be the envy of the anchorage. I think most people can hobble together an electrical problem.

p.s. I have the books, but don't feel competent to do my own HVAC yet. I just wanted to understand what the tech was telling me and be able to call bull$hit when necessary. That has been helpful.


----------



## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

OMG I have been reading this thread. 

Tiny systems with tiny Parts tiny refrigerant charges require very unique skills. They can't be purged, they don't "settle down" the refrigerant charge is usually less than 5 oz which most people have no idea how to properly weigh into a system.

Connecting, disconnecting gauges and hoses one time will loose most of the very small refrigerant charge.

Cutting out quick connect fittings from pre-charged pre-charged systems is best done by professionals because it brings the installer OR technician right back to the necessity of getting the proper refrigerant charge back into system.

Equipment and tools needed are :
deep vacuum, vacuum pump with micron gauge (highly recommended.) Electronic scale or an old fashion item called "dial a charge" a dual manifold gauge set so the hoses are not disconnected and reconnected from vacuum pump to refrigerant cylinder. 

From what I've learned about these little systems with the keel coolers and other type of water cooled condensers is that they also have a air-cooled condenser in the circuit also.

A vacuum should be pulled on a little system like this for 12 to 24 hours when the compressor is no longer cold from the refrigerant leaching out of the oil it is probably well evacuated.

Can this be done by the do-it-yourselfers? no but they will do what everybody does. run to the auto store, get a can of 134 give it a shot and get lucky! and many people do get lucky but only takes like a millionth of a drop of water to clog up a strainer. 

If you want to fix it yourself stay with an engine driven system that is XXX times larger than you need LOL


----------



## Rocky Mountain Breeze (Mar 30, 2015)

I have not seen the type of quick connect fitting shown by aaeventyr60 for some years. Most today are the piercing type that do not reseal when disassembled. Even with the "hydraulic type" couplings you are likely to get contamination in your system if you disconnect and reconnect the fittings, as well as some refrigerant loss. Fouling of the condenser would give you long run times of the compressor but the efficiency of your condenser tubing can easily be determined by measuring the temperature of the line before the capillary tube. It should be water temperature plus 30 degrees or less. I would prefer to see less than 20 degrees but most systems are designed for the 30 degree range.


----------



## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Denise I agree with you. That's why I've only had marine refrigeration techs touch this system. The only thing I've done is replace the little fan that cools the cooling vanes on the compressor. But now I've had the tech on the boat twice while in the states and several times when in the islands. Thing still doesn't work right Above question was aimed at trying to understand what other possibilities there are and to not let current tech off the hook if he says "is what it is- go clean keel coolers and see if that fixes it".


----------



## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

outbound said:


> Boat hasn't been out of the water since April 2016. There is growth on the keel coolers. Manual says put no paint on them.
> ? Could growth on coolers have this degree of impact on function?
> ? In fact is it alright to put something on keel coolers? Perhaps transducer paint?
> ? Any other thoughts about how to pursue this problem?


Good question about the ban on paint. They are bronze so I suspect the ban is to avoid copper based antifouling and the possible damage that could result. I would think one of the new non-copper based bottom paints would be just fine.


----------



## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

"Now at setting of 14F goes down to 17F and compressor doesn't turn off. Frig which was purged as well runs perfectly."

Within three degrees of a setting is not bad at all!! That seems like a very good freezer to me!! I would not expect the compressor to shut off. the beauty of high-efficiency electric is that they run on less electricity they don't want less often! Type of box, how well it's sealed, and how much infiltration can always be improved, the lid is the most overlooked culprit. Gravity really doesn't help that much when it comes to sealing a door or lid


----------



## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Looky look 

http://www.veco-na.com/technicalinformation/frigoboattechnicalinfo.html

http://www.veco-na.com/images/Frigoboat_BD35_and_BD50_Refrigerant_Charge.pdf
Slightly overcharged system
_Too much refrigerant in the system will result in liquid still evaporating back to a gas past the end of the evaporator and inside the tubing 
going back to the compressor. This means that there is still some of the refrigeration process going on inside the tubing, and there will be a 
build-up of frost or ice on the exposed section. If additional insulation has been added, it may be concealing this symptom and should be 
removed. The evaporator may appear and sound normal, but will be at a higher temperature than designed, resulting in poor efficiency and 
longer than expected run times. _

Bottom paint the damn keel coolers already! just keep them slime free if you can.

I remember when quick-connect fittings were introduced into the air conditioning Refrigeration business here it is nearly 50 years later most unitary equipment is shipped without them and set up for a field connections. The do-it-yourself boat systems use them for good reason!!

Outbound have you been around your system enough to see where the frost line forms on the lines going to the compressor the compressor should not be cold if it is, it's overcharged. I'd be surprised if your technician actually has the type of equipment needed to accurately weigh in ounces not pounds of refrigerant.


----------

