# How to attach things to hull or fiberglass liner?



## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

I am in the middle or a rewiring project on two different boats and don't have many places with wood to secure the wires. Most of the places where I will be running wires is along the hull or a fiberglass liner.

I've got west systems epoxy and could use that but mixing epoxy is a chore I'd rather avoid in this project if I can avoid it. I am looking at either a 5 minute epoxy, epoxy stick or any other suggestion on something that can be whipped up in a small batch to attach one or two a ziptie holders at a time?


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Those Zip-tie holders are usually self sticking.. some of the 'industrial' ones are pretty tenacious. As long as the surface is smooth and clean they will stick pretty well. On a hull with exposed roving not so much. I think I'd use 4200 or some such for that application rather than fuss about mixing epoxy. Still need to clean the surface really well, and maybe rough up the plastic on the back of the fitting.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

I think epoxy is too permanent for that, perhaps you or the next owner might want to relocate/reorganize the wiring. Most have a double sided stick tape that should be fine unless it is raw fiberglass. Be sure to clean fiberglass well, with a quick evaporating solvent first. I did pick up some nice 3M double sided rubber (rather than the foam) tape that is rated at 35 pounds at home depot that I might be tempted to swap it out with what is on there on critical joints. For the most part the black ones are supposed to have more UV inhibitors in it, so if it will see much sunlight use the black ones. If it is going to hold a lot of weight I am planning on using a small screw when it is on the liner on my project.


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

3M molded mushroom Velcro works very well. It's pretty tenacious stuff, and if you ever do need to take it down to replace the wire bundle its at least possible.


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

miatapaul said:


> I did pick up some nice 3M double sided rubber (rather than the foam)


The 3M triggered a reminder of the most of a role of 3M VHB tape I have sitting in the garage. That's what I will use.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

jephotog said:


> The 3M triggered a reminder of the most of a role of 3M VHB tape I have sitting in the garage. That's what I will use.


The stuff I picked up (to hold the plastic outlet boxes) is likely some of the thick lower strength thick VHB just relabeled for household use.

I must say the folks at work think I am crazy. I got a package the other day at work with a tube of Dow Corning 795 in the mail at work. There comment was "oh is Paul ordering stuff from China again" as it came in a bubble envelope, and was cylindrical and all squishy. Lets just say they were a bit nervous when I opened the package!


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Those clips are easily ordered with double-stick tape on the back of them, and it works quite well as long as the "wall" is cleaned first, alcohol prep or similar.

If you've got the plain kind, 3M's structural mounting tape or VHB tape works just fine.

If you don't want to use the tapes or clips, consider a plain old fashioned hot melt glue gun! They make those in the standard electrical kind, and also using a butane refill, just like a torch or cigarette lighter.

And to answer the unthinkable...yes, you can use a glue gun directly to glue wires to the wall. Or to attach Velcro wire wraps, so that you can add or remove wires from a bundle without breaking the ties.


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## paulk (Jun 2, 2000)

Pleased to hear about sticky cable tie attachments. Someone used a screw-in type to organize the cables and wires of our engine controls under the cockpit. Condensation and any wayward spray dripped down the wires until they got to the screw, which directed the water right into the balsa core. Twenty-five some years later we had a 3'x2' delamination that was a hassle to fix. Sticky-based ties, even if they don't hold well, won't let water in.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Someplace hot, like against the overhead in the engine compartment, I don't think I'd trust the tie mounts that have the white foam double-sided tape on them. I'd rather use "plain" ones and put VHB tape on them. It doesn't degrade the way the white foam does, and I think it will be more reliable.
FWIW.


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## ReefMagnet (May 8, 2008)

Sikaflex 291 has always worked well for me. VHB tape is great stuff, but it's static load carrying capacity isn't that great, especially on rough surfaces.

If you don't want to spring for those tie attachments, short cut lengths of conduit make good supports and look very neat when used with split loom.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

I use the Weld-Mount system.. Not cheap but saves my customers quite a bit in labor...


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Maine Sail said:


> I use the Weld-Mount system.. Not cheap but saves my customers quite a bit in labor...


Another product I probably would not have known existed; THANK YOU!


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

capta said:


> Another product I probably would not have known existed; THANK YOU!


I use the Weld-Mount studs a lot as well as the tie mounts. The 2010 6min adhesive I use for a lot more than just Weld-Mount stuff...


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## SVTatia (May 7, 2007)

Maine Sail said:


> I use the Weld-Mount system.. Not cheap but saves my customers quite a bit in labor...


I have used most of the above methods, except 4200 and all worked well... for a while, until the hull/deck got hot and the weight of the wire bundle pulled the whole thing from the hull/deck. The problem is the plastic thingy that accepts the wire tie (wire tie anchor?). Not many adhesives are good for plastic, not for the long run anyway.

The old saying that poor sailors cannot afford cheap stuff is very true.
I have tried to avoid the Weldmount because of the price, but I'll have to bite the bullet and go for the permanent solution - there are too many good testimonials out there. I believe that someone (you Mainesail?) even used it to attach tanks and engine room insulation, so the stuff must be good.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

SVTatia said:


> I have used most of the above methods, except 4200 and all worked well... for a while, until the hull/deck got hot and the weight of the wire bundle pulled the whole thing from the hull/deck. The problem is the plastic thingy that accepts the wire tie (wire tie anchor?). Not many adhesives are good for plastic, not for the long run anyway.
> 
> The old saying that poor sailors cannot afford cheap stuff is very true.
> I have tried to avoid the Weldmount because of the price, but I'll have to bite the bullet and go for the permanent solution - there are too many good testimonials out there. I believe that someone (you Mainesail?) even used it to attach tanks and engine room insulation, so the stuff must be good.


I have used Weld-Mount for countless items including AC/DC back planes, mounting water heaters, and even my remote oil filter which sees the most abuse every time I twist the old filter off..


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## DonScribner (Jan 9, 2011)

MS is showing primarily studs adhered for mounting and they're pretty expensive. But, like he said (or alluded to) 1/2 hour of technician's labor to glue on studs instead of hours of the same fellow arranging for welding, glassing or who knows what else . . . "throw me the rope". For the boat owner, depending on size, it may or may not make as much sense, though I would recommend it. That said, WeldMount also offers plastic wire mounting brackets, not unlike the ones show in the original post. I'll assume they are PVC, acrylic or polycarbonate, not UHMW or HDPE, so the adhesive will work on them. Tensile is only around 150 lbs so use the thin wires! Heck, I could hang my dinghy, or my outboard, almost my dinghy AND my outboard, from one of those.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

DonScribner said:


> MS is showing primarily studs adhered for mounting and they're pretty expensive. But, like he said (or alluded to) 1/2 hour of technician's labor to glue on studs instead of hours of the same fellow arranging for welding, glassing or who knows what else . . . "throw me the rope". For the boat owner, depending on size, it may or may not make as much sense, though I would recommend it. That said, WeldMount also offers plastic wire mounting brackets, not unlike the ones show in the original post. I'll assume they are PVC, acrylic or polycarbonate, not UHMW or HDPE, so the adhesive will work on them. Tensile is only around 150 lbs so use the thin wires! Heck, I could hang my dinghy, or my outboard, almost my dinghy AND my outboard, from one of those.


Sorry I should have included their other options: Here is a display they use and it show all the various mounts.. The ones I use most are the wire tie mounts, like the one with the orange wire tie through it...

Image Courtesy Jamestown Distributors:









A good starting kit would include:

AT-2010 Adhesive 
AT-300 Dispensing Gun
AT-650 Mixing Tips
AT-5 Nylon Wire Tie Mounts


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## DonScribner (Jan 9, 2011)

Look at you GO! It's almost like you do it for a livin'! Did you make the Wooden Boat Show? I took my boy (24) there. Had good time. Struck up a great conversation with a kid from Portugal: apprenticing in Belfast. Met a guy from Nova Scotia that built one of my customer's schooners. Small world.


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## SVTatia (May 7, 2007)

Maine Sail said:


> Sorry I should have included their other options: Here is a display they use and it show all the various mounts.. The ones I use most are the wire tie mounts, like the one with the orange wire tie through it...
> 
> Image Courtesy Jamestown Distributors:
> 
> ...


MS -thanks for the information, this seems to be a pretty tough product.
Based on your experience, do you know what the shelf life of the Weldmount adhesive/dispensing gun is after the first use?
My experience with some of those, particularly the (methacrylate?) mixing/dispensing guns is that once you use and store it, they will either dry or become inoperable. I'd hate to keep buying Weldmount adhesives, as they are not available locally.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

There is an article in the current good old boat about basically DIY WeldMount stuff. I like the idea of the kit but seems to be a lot of money for a few projects. One of those things where being a professional in the field you get all the fun toys! Seems like a good thing for a yacht club to invest in though and make available for the members.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

Another similar option are these:










Sea-Lect Glue-on Studs

A major strength of the WeldMount system is the adhesive, which holds the stud in place while it cures. An advantage of the Duckworks type stud is that you can lay glass over and under for reinforcement...
but it needs to be secured while curing unless horizontal.

The GOB article is more for things were cosmetics matter or where the hull is cored and the skins need either more load distribution or protection from crushing. I've used both approaches.


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

miatapaul said:


> There is an article in the current good old boat about basically DIY WeldMount stuff. I like the idea of the kit but seems to be a lot of money for a few projects. One of those things where being a professional in the field you get all the fun toys! Seems like a good thing for a yacht club to invest in though and make available for the members.


I got the Good Old Boat article and was going to try this method with Starboard only to find out StarBoard does not work well with any glue, it needs to be fastened. I have been looking around for the FRP used in the article and so far have only found it in full 4x8 sheets starting at $200+. I might as well buy the Weldmount kit.

When I talked to the Chandlery they said you do not need the gun but can work around its need and hand mix the Weldmount mastics. Also the AT1030 comes in a smaller package and has the plunger like a 5 minute epoxy, designed for hand mixing.

Most of the products are listed at 6 month shelf life at 72 degrees. AT1030 and 2040 have a 12 month shelf life at the expense of a 40 minute dry time to working strength as opposed to 15 minutes with most of the other mastics. I am going to pick up some AT1030 and report back on its use.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

jephotog said:


> I got the Good Old Boat article and was going to try this method with Starboard only to find out StarBoard does not work well with any glue, it needs to be fastened. I have been looking around for the FRP used in the article and so far have only found it in full 4x8 sheets starting at $200+. I might as well buy the Weldmount kit.
> 
> When I talked to the Chandlery they said you do not need the gun but can work around its need and hand mix the Weldmount mastics. Also the AT1030 comes in a smaller package and has the plunger like a 5 minute epoxy, designed for hand mixing.
> 
> Most of the products are listed at 6 month shelf life at 72 degrees. AT1030 and 2040 have a 12 month shelf life at the expense of a 40 minute dry time to working strength as opposed to 15 minutes with most of the other mastics. I am going to pick up some AT1030 and report back on its use.


Yea, I was thinking of using plywood in place of the G10 style stuff they use. Places will sell smaller pieces of the G10 but it is expensive. Plywood is strong and as long as it is at least exterior grade (so the glue is water proof) or marine will last a really long time. G10 is really a lot stronger, but likely stronger than the hull so overkill. Or you could make up your own sheets by laying up some with epoxy if you have scrap fiberglass/epoxy from other projects. I plan on ordering some extra materials when I attack my delamination issues just to make some things like that.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

pdqaltair said:


> Another similar option are these:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


At $2.50 those are nice. I may just have to order a few to try out. I have a couple of projects it might work well for, like my electrical panel. Seems like you could put a small square of VHB tape under one of these before fiberglassing over it. that would certainly hold it well enough while the epoxy kicked.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"a small square of VHB tape under one of these before fiberglassing over it. that would certainly hold it well enough while the epoxy kicked. "
Or you could make Martha proud, and use a hot glue gun.(G) So many ways to skin a cat.


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## tschmidty (Sep 25, 2008)

I second the idea of the cheap wire mounts. Just get some small pieces of wood, small screws(go solid wood instead of plywood), screw the mount to the wood and glue the wood to fiberglass. You can get 1/4 inch wood at lowes or what have you so not too bulky. You can use gorilla glue and just tape it to hold until it cures. Pretty cheap, easy solution.


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

miatapaul said:


> G10 is really a lot stronger, but likely stronger than the hull so overkill.


I forgot about G10. I picked up some scraps a while back and can use that to mount some stuff. Next time you are at the plastic store ask to see their scrap bin. I like the idea of a chunk of drillable mountable material wherever i like it so I can mount things where I want, how I want, I don't mind overkill. At least G10 is purchasable in small quantities. So far I can only find FRP in 4x8 sheets running between $230-$1300/sheet which is an overkill I can't afford.

I have mounted some extra zip ties with different bonding materials. So far I have only mounted using some VHB and home depot "high strength" double sided tape. I will add glue gun and some other "fast and simple" fasteners to the test. I will be ignoring Weldmount and Epoxy because we have an idea of their strength and parts of the boat may break before the bonds will.

I have a 110# luggage scale on order and will be running some tests and reporting back.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

hellosailor said:


> "a small square of VHB tape under one of these before fiberglassing over it. that would certainly hold it well enough while the epoxy kicked. "
> Or you could make Martha proud, and use a hot glue gun.(G) So many ways to skin a cat.


I have been looking for my damn hot glue gun since you suggested it for my wiring. The (&(^%^&&*(^ X-wife must have found it and I will never find it again! I even bought glue for it, guess it is time to buy a new one. So it is kind of a sensitive subject for me! Why is it that it is so frustrating when you can't find something. I can see in my mind the exact box it was in. all the way in the back of the shed, where no one is supposed to go....... :clobber:clobber


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Paul-
The good news is, the damned things are CHEAP. The little ones in the craft section of Wallyworld, the bigger ones in the bigbox stores...And the refillable butane powered one that I got as a gift? SWEET! No GFI needed when using it afloat.(G)

If someone unnamed took off with your last one, look at the bright side. First, they didn't use it on you. Second, they will forever have a chance to get burned by it. Karma, nyeh?

je-
While you're testing, stop in the plumbing aisle for some of that "plumbers' poxy" they sell in a plastic cylinder. You know, slice a bit off, knead the center and outer layer together, and in 20 minutes it becomes rock hard? Does a fine job of bonding even if there's a little surface dirt. A marble-size lump with a zip tie embedded in it probably could hold a 10# Danforth, if you let it cure first.(G)


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

hellosailor said:


> Paul-
> The good news is, the damned things are CHEAP. The little ones in the craft section of Wallyworld, the bigger ones in the bigbox stores...And the refillable butane powered one that I got as a gift? SWEET! No GFI needed when using it afloat.(G)
> 
> If someone unnamed took off with your last one, look at the bright side. First, they didn't use it on you. Second, they will forever have a chance to get burned by it. Karma, nyeh?
> ...


Before I posted this thread I stopped at Home Depot and bought one of each type of glue i thought might work. After this thread I returned quite a few of them. I do have 5 min epoxy, marine epoxy, plumbers putty epoxy and marine putty epoxy that i have kept. I will add a choice selection of these to the test. Since I now have a Weldmount package on the way it is more just an academic exercise at this point.

FYI since everyone balked at the cost of the weldmount as I did, let me point out what $57 gets you: A tube of Weldmount AT1030, 25 zip tie mounts and 10 #10 studs. If this can save me a day of waiting for epoxy to dry, it is well worth it.

My local chandlery has the weldmount pieces sold individually, but did not have the AT1030 in so I had to mail order it. Since free shipping starts at $100 of course I had to fill my basket until I reached one boat unit.:wink


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## H and E (Sep 11, 2011)

If it is out of sight. I use a block of teak and construction adhesive on the inside of the hull to mount things. Last item was a water pressure pump. Clean the hull and teak with acetone. So far has worked well for me.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

So, sixty bucks for ten studs. Wow, I must be getting old. It has been hard enough accepting the fact that a buck won't buy two slices of pizza AND a Coke, and leave me change for a comic book anymore.

But at those prices, could you just crazy glue some $5 bills to the hull, and attach the wires directly to those?(VBG)


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