# Spinnaker Pole Rigging



## geehaw (Jun 9, 2010)

Well please forgive me for not using all the correct terminology. So never used a spinnaker yet. I have one,told it looked like it never was used by PO who never used it. I never have taken it out of the bag. I have a pole, spinnaker halyard and the pole topping lift. My pole only has 1 bridle for the topping lift. Now I was shown on another boat that there is also a down-haul and an associated bridle on the pole, and he had a fitting on the deck for the down-haul. I don't have a bridle on the pole,or a fitting on the deck for a down-haul. Is this something I am missing or is it something that is not always needed? Greg


----------



## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

There is usually a downhaul as well as a topper. If the boat was rigged to run dedicated guys, meaning you have a set of sheets AND a set of guys, and the guy leads are quite far forward you _could _get away without a downhaul because the downward angle of the guy will hold the pole down. Ideally you should have a downhaul as it keeps the pole under control better. Although the foreguy is best going straight down to the foredeck, you could run it to a block at the base of the mast.


----------



## geehaw (Jun 9, 2010)

I wonder if maybe forward guy leads are what he used. I have a U-Bolt on the starboard side just forward of the shrouds, and a port-side one half way between shrouds and bow. I removed the starboard one because it leaked and couldn't find a use for it. Maybe blocks were used in these eye bolts.Greg


----------



## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

Block were probably used there but if they aren't even on both sides then I wouldn't use them. Install the right stuff, and be happy. 

What boat is it? Size? You can get away with sheets if the boat is >32'. Larger, and I'd look into guys as well. If you just do sheets then add twingers/tweakers. 

Foreguy/downhaul = You'll need one if you plan on sailing any hot angles. The only boats that do well w/o them that I've been on are the J24 fleet. All they race is w/l courses, so they're always sailing deep. If you're reaching, use a downhaul. 

Blocks at mast vs mid foredeck = if you use block(s) at the mast base, then you don't need to ease the downhaul to pull the pole back. However, the trade off is you don't get a good angle to pull the pole down. If you use a block in the middle of the foredeck then you get better purchase, but need to remember to ease the downhaul when you pull the pole back or trim it when you ease it forward. 

Bridle = if you have a tappered pole (probably not) then you'll need a bridle for the downhaul. 

Foreguy/downhaul (v2.0) = a foreguy is lead to the bow. Near the stem and somtimes goes through the front edge of the bow. A downhaul is lead to the foredeck and is a more common set up with end to end gybes.


----------



## svHyLyte (Nov 13, 2008)

geehaw said:


> I wonder if maybe forward guy leads are what he used. I have a U-Bolt on the starboard side just forward of the shrouds, and a port-side one half way between shrouds and bow. I removed the starboard one because it leaked and couldn't find a use for it. Maybe blocks were used in these eye bolts.Greg


I suspect the fittings were intended to take snatch blocks for storm jib sheets. On a spinnaker pole, you will need a foreguy to keep the outboard pole end from "skying", or being pulled upwards by the lift of the sail. If your pole has a bridle, your boat may be small enough that one can use an end-for-end gybe, wherein the mast end of the pole is detached, snapped over the lazy sheet and the working sheet freed and that end of the pole snapped over the mast fitting. In that case, one would normally find a fitting on the underside of the middle of the pole to take the foreguy, or, another, bridle, perhaps in the spinnaker bag that attaches to the underside of the pole and to be connected to a foreguy, typically connected to a snatch block at a pad-eye along the center line of the yacht forward of the mast.


----------



## DonScribner (Jan 9, 2011)

Geehaw,

I've never flown a spinnaker and don't own one, so I can relate. I suggest you do what I would do. Get the video. There's more than one out there dedicated to wrangling the beast. Pick one up and see what's going on. Study like you used to tell your parents you did while you were really making time with that someone special. Then, hit the water on a light day. 

I'm planning on making an asymmetrical this coming winter. No pole required and acts more like a huge, light air genoa, sort of. Sounds like a time anyway.

Have fun!

Don

Maine


----------



## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

If a pole only has one bridle on it it should be for the downhaul... two is probably best, though.

The pole should hang on it's pins (the image below is 'right side up')










Try that and see if the bridle is actually for the downhaul.. it gets a lot more load than the polelift. It's unlikely that foreguys were used on an ODay 25.. and rarely on end-for-end poles either.


----------



## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

The boat is an O'Day 25. I expect that it is an end-for-end set up. That would also explain the bridle. I think there should be two.


----------



## geehaw (Jun 9, 2010)

Ok so after getting all these responses I decided to trudge through the snow and take another look at my pole in the shed. And I see I have a pad-eye in the center, and if the hooks go up then it would be on the bottom. So PO must have run the downhaul to the mast base. Which seems to me to be right because the bridle sure does not seem to be strong enough to take much strain. Its coated wire and even with the coating on it it is for sure no more then 1/8th in.. But the ends do look like Faster showed so a bridle could be attached if wanted. Well thanks all for continuing my education.


----------



## svHyLyte (Nov 13, 2008)

Faster said:


> If a pole only has one bridle on it it should be for the downhaul... two is probably best, though.
> 
> The pole should hang on it's pins (the image below is 'right side up')
> 
> ...


Faster--I think the only difference between our descriptions is the vernacular. What you are calling a "downhaul" in our vernacular a "foreguy", i.e. a guy tacked forward of the mast verses an "after-guy", or guy tacked aft of the mast. If you look at your own illustration you'll note that the line leading to the lower bridle is identified as a "foreguy", Non?


----------



## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

You don't want a single point attachment to the bottom of the pole for the down haul. If the existing setup has a light bridle for the pole lift that's fine.. It only needs to support the weight of the pole. However the down haul has to withstand all the lift from the sail and that can be substantial in a breeze. Nowadays making an adequate bridle is a simple thing using dyneema, or wire, or even lo stretch rope.

Those forces will be concentrated at the tip of the pole; without a bridle the pole will bend until it snaps in a puff - and then you've got some fun. Add the bridle and you'll be fine.


----------



## geehaw (Jun 9, 2010)

Ok will do Faster if I ever decide to fly it. Hard to believe you would bend that pole but why chance it since they want all 3 legs for a new one. Greg


----------



## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

svHyLyte said:


> Faster--I think the only difference between our descriptions is the vernacular. What you are calling a "downhaul" in our vernacular a "foreguy", i.e. a guy tacked forward of the mast verses an "after-guy", or guy tacked aft of the mast. If you look at your own illustration you'll note that the line leading to the lower bridle is identified as a "foreguy", Non?


Oui .... For me a foreguy is part of a dip pole setup with double sheets and guys.. Here the pole lift and foreguy both terminate at the tack end of the pole, and all tip loads are managed and balanced there. There is no bridle in that case.

So yes, they both hold the spinn tack 'down, but despite the mixed up terminology I think the end-for-end pole uses a down haul, and dip pole uses a foreguy....


----------



## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

On small boats with tappered carbon poles they typically use a single point to attach the downhaul. Twingers will help ease the load on the foreguy as well.


----------



## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

Faster said:


> end-for-end pole uses a down haul, and dip pole uses a foreguy....YMMV


+1 spot on.


----------



## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

geehaw said:


> Ok will do Faster if I ever decide to fly it. Hard to believe you would bend that pole but why chance it since they want all 3 legs for a new one. Greg


You might be surprised the forces that a pole has to take, particularly when things go wrong, and the sail collapses and refills. The shock loading could rip a padeye right out or even snap the pole in two if it is point-loaded in the middle. A bridle is definitely preferable and doesn't cost much.


----------



## svHyLyte (Nov 13, 2008)

Faster said:


> Oui .... For me a foreguy is part of a dip pole setup with double sheets and guys.. Here the pole lift and foreguy both terminate at the tack end of the pole, and all tip loads are managed and balanced there. There is no bridle in that case.
> 
> So yes, they both hold the spinn tack 'down, but despite the mixed up terminology I think the end-for-end pole uses a down haul, and dip pole uses a foreguy....


Humm... Well, that is a nuanced distinction. Not unreasonable however. So long as one's own crew understands what one is referring to when one asks for "Six inches on/off the foreguy (downhaul) please!" one's good to go, Non?


----------



## rbrasi (Mar 21, 2011)

Last week, I got my new (to me) symmetrical spin. I also had never flown one. I borrowed a pole and off I went on a light wind afternoon. I got some advice from one of the nearby salts about how to rig/deploy. The first bit of advice- motor out at least three miles (wind tends to blow toward shore here). So, like the genius that I am, I motored out about a mile. By the time the chute was flying, I was about even with our breakwater, headed toward the beach in a hurry. I barely had time to snap a photo before dousing. Now, deploying a spinnaker single handed is a chore, but dousing is a whole other beast and I recommend having at least another pair of hands on board.


----------



## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

svHyLyte said:


> .....So long as one's own crew understands what one is referring to when one asks for "Six inches on/off the foreguy (downhaul) please!" one's good to go, Non?


Absolutely... but I think it's too bad that that terminology has become synonomous, and is widely published as you've noted..

The guy is often referred to as the 'afterguy'... making sense of the term foreguy as it opposes the aft pull and provides down pull too.

An end for end 'downhaul', esp if run to the mast base, has no 'forward' component, only 'down'. I suppose if the downhaul is run forward to a deck block and then aft, it qualifies as a 'foreguy'..

Ah well... like you say, as long as everyone on the boat understands the term, we're good... We had our own name for the cunningham... 'sly pig'... got some funny looks from guests on that one...


----------



## svHyLyte (Nov 13, 2008)

Faster said:


> Absolutely... but I think it's too bad that that terminology has become synonomous, and is widely published as you've noted..
> 
> The guy is often referred to as the 'afterguy'... making sense of the term foreguy as it opposes the aft pull and provides down pull too.
> 
> ...


Where the distinction becomes significant is in larger yachts with larger sails that really load up the pole. The closer to the wind one sails, the greater the apparent wind and the greater load on the afterguy, pole. The lifting force on the tack end of the pole really becomes quite enormous and one seriously needs a "down haul" (as you say) on the tack to hold the pole end in place. The afterguy positions the pole fore-in-aft, the foreguy/down-haul positions the tack end of the pole up-and down. Close reaching, with the pole near the headstay, one needs the foreguy/down-haul as nearly vertical as possible to avoid introducing unnecessary compression loads in the pole. On a larger yacht, a lower bridle is not suitable for this as the forward diagonal too sharply loads the pole, and more so if the tacking point of the guy/downhaul is aft of the apex of the bridle. (To say nothing of the loading on the deck fitting of the fair-lead for the guy/down-haul itself.) While I have never run the numbers, I'm guessing that at about 30 feet LOD with a roughly 10' pole is about the limiting length for a lower bridled pole and end-for-end gybes. On our boat, with an 18' pole and a 1570 SF Spinnaker, our foreguy is led to a point about 5' aft of the stem-head to a pad-eye bolted through deck and on the underside, to a bulkhead below. While one might argue that this is a less than optimal position when running off, at that point the apparent wind on the sail is lower and the fore and after-guys work together to hold the tack down, albeit both at relatively shallow angles. Considering the foregoing, "down-haul" logically seems to be the more apropos. Unfortunately, using it at this stage of the game would be confusing after so many years (old dogs, new tricks and all that)...

FWIW...

_PS: I apologize to the OP if this thread drift/leeway into technical minutia adds little to his comprehension. It's all only terms/words and, different ships, different long splices, eh?_


----------



## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

> PS: I apologize to the OP if this thread drift/leeway into technical minutia adds little to his comprehension. It's all only terms/words and, different ships, different long splices, eh?


I'll second that....

and agree with HyLyte on pretty well all points. Just a matter of termininology, really...


----------

