# Vanishing Seamanship



## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

This has been bothering me for some time, now. I just don't understand what's going on with all these tall ships and yachts being abandoned or sunk, or like the racers off California last year, with significant loss of life.
For years vessels like the Bounty, the Astrid, the Nina and Concordia sailed the seas avoiding hurricanes, "downdrafts" and rocks, but they all perished in the last few years.
Never before have multiple vessels been abandoned in one season (that I know of) sailing from the East Coast to Bermuda, and it's happened two years in a row! Not racing, which is a whole other ball game, but just cruisers on their way to the Caribbean.
And now Archangel is lost in an area well known and oft traveled by forum members; a seemingly unexplainable loss.
So what is going on? Is the weather changing so drastically that experienced mariners are unable to adjust? Is it just a numbers game; there are many more boats out there doing this, so there are going to be more tragedies? Or is it the crews, the captains and owners?
I continually see professional captains operating charter and private yachts down here in the Caribbean who seem to emulate the most inexperienced bare boater. Of course, we all screw up now and then, but why is it always happening while I'm watching? Honestly though, ask any cruiser and they will all have astoundingly similar tales, of big bucks boats seemingly handled by novices.
Thirty years ago when I was operating the big bucks boats, I saw very few screw ups by professional crews. There was competence and pride in our boat handling (without bow thrusters or even twin screws) that seems to be missing in today's professionals and a serious lack of basic seamanship in many of the cruisers of today.
Or maybe it's just global warming.....


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

Sign of the times. Easy entry. Apps galore. I'd go on but I'm out here doing it...


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## poopdeckpappy (Jul 25, 2006)

Maybe it's just complacency due to over reliance on the next best thing in electronics.

I kinda just shake my head when I hear these guys talk'n about their new AP with the remote control.

And then there's a guy several slips down that couldn't go sailing for three weeks cause his BT'er wasn't working on his Bene50


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

capta said:


> This has been bothering me for some time, now. I just don't understand what's going on with all these tall ships and yachts being abandoned or sunk, or like the racers off California last year, with significant loss of life.
> For years vessels like the Bounty, the Astrid, the Nina and Concordia sailed the seas avoiding hurricanes, "downdrafts" and rocks, but they all perished in the last few years.
> Never before have multiple vessels been abandoned in one season (that I know of) sailing from the East Coast to Bermuda, and it's happened two years in a row! Not racing, which is a whole other ball game, but just cruisers on their way to the Caribbean.
> And now Archangel is lost in an area well known and oft traveled by forum members; a seemingly unexplainable loss.
> ...


Who knows? Too many helm stations, perhaps? Too many 15" Simrad Glass Bridge displays?

Or, not enough? 










If I had to point my finger at any single element, it would be at modern electronics and related systems that has made much of the business of running our boats all too easy... Certainly, all too easy to become complacent, or distracted, or whatever... Here we had a multi-million dollar yacht equipped with the absolute state-of-the-art equipment, theoretically there should have been NFW that boat should have hit the bricks on a short daysail on a perfect afternoon, while under the command of a professional captain... And yet, it did...

It's become all too easy to take this stuff for granted, I've been guilty of that numerous times, myself... Anyway, that's the most likely explanation I can think of...

Having said that, however, I doubt the incident involving ARCHANGEL is necessarily representative of any particular 'trend'... I imagine the captain may have been simply distracted, they were likely just getting underway with a new group of guests... I certainly don't envy the job these charter crews have, a crew of 2 on a 70-footer, the skipper has to be a bit of a one man band... And given how demanding of attention and being 'entertained' some of these charter guests can be today, it's not hard for me to imagine how easily the skipper might have been distracted...


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## PaulinVictoria (Aug 23, 2009)

I'm fairly sure that boats have been hitting rocks, sinking and generally not being boaty for a long time now. Perhaps the Internet just means you hear about it a lot more now with the "everything is instant news" that it gives you.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

I think Paul has a lot of it covered there. Another factor is that people are handling bigger boats sooner. I routinely see 38' boats advertised as "entry level".

Back in the G.O.D.'s EVERYONE started in small boats - dinghys & rowboats. Now they don't bother unless they have all the comforts of home along. I was just talking to an old timer & long time broker here. He just got back from a several week cruise through the islands. He said there were two very noticeable things - very few huge motoryachts (probably fuel costs) and very few small <30' sailboats.

Cruising a 35'+ boat with limited experience and completely relying on electronics to guide you is going to result in more trouble than before I think.

The ocean is a place where experience REALLY counts. There are simply too many things going on and too many possibilities to be able to think it all out - you have to have instincts developed from experience to go on.


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## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

PaulinVictoria said:


> I'm fairly sure that boats have been hitting rocks, sinking and generally not being boaty for a long time now. Perhaps the Internet just means you hear about it a lot more now with the "everything is instant news" that it gives you.


Bingo!


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I'm willing to say, it certainly hasn't gotten better. I'm not sure it's gotten worse. 

I know I would find myself in more "oh crap, how did we get this close to shallow, rocks, etc" moments years ago, than I do now. The electronics have actually helped, not hurt, at least me.

There is no question that electronic nav improvements have increased safety in aircraft, so why can't they do so in boats? It's all about training and cross checking. I am sure there are many that just want to get out there and play the video game. 

All that said, humans do make mistakes and that will never change.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

It's certainly true that we hear about more incidents now but that may be only part of the answer. It just seems that more people with no experience with their hands or with the way physical things work are buying big, expensive boats because they have a lot of money. Most of the boaters I grew up with had/have many years of experience with boats, starting with small boats, stepping up to bigger boats. Their boats had no e-charts, current arrows, large screens, no in-mast furlers, no rope clutches, electric winches or bow thrusters. In short, they learned the hard way how to handle a boat, navigate using DR, change an engine now and then, and hold a caulking iron. There may be a lack of appreciation of how quick things can turn to S**T and the consequences of cascading failures. I have noticed a lot of big expensive boats doing really stupid things.

Nowadays it's too easy. Until, of course, it isn't.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I've always maintained the position that whether it's appropriate to start small and move up is based upon one's aptitude and training. There isn't a one-size-fits-all approach. However, I do agree that electronics allow those with less aptitude and no training to get away with it until something goes wrong.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I think its important to add that it is estimated there are 1 million shipwrecks beneath the sea. It's not really a modern phenom.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> There is no question that electronic nav improvements have increased safety in aircraft, so why can't they do so in boats? It's all about training and cross checking. I am sure there are many that just want to get out there and play the video game.
> 
> All that said, humans do make mistakes and that will never change.


What I find so interesting about the ARCHANGEL accident, is that it is completely outside of the realm of what most are talking about, here... This was not an example of a newbie starting out in a big boat, with little experience or understanding of navigation, the potential effects of a side-setting tidal stream, and complete reliance upon a chartplotter... Instead, this was the example of a very experienced professional captain, who has shuttled this boat back and forth between New England and the Caribbean for years, has likely made that run from Camden to Pulpit many times before, and who made this error on an afternoon where the conditions were as close to perfect as one could imagine...

Not unlike the sort of conditions that existed at SFO on the day of the recent Asiana 757 crash, incidentally...

I simply think that the enhanced "safety" modern electronics afford will always be a double-edged sword, one that at the same time can so easily foster a degree of complacency, no matter where one is on the food chain of comparative experience...


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

SloopJonB said:


> *I think Paul has a lot of it covered there. Another factor is that people are handling bigger boats sooner. I routinely see 38' boats advertised as "entry level".
> 
> Back in the G.O.D.'s EVERYONE started in small boats - dinghys & rowboats. Now they don't bother unless they have all the comforts of home along. I was just talking to an old timer & long time broker here. He just got back from a several week cruise through the islands. He said there were two very noticeable things - very few huge motoryachts (probably fuel costs) and very few small <30' sailboats.*
> Cruising a 35'+ boat with limited experience and completely relying on electronics to guide you is going to result in more trouble than before I think.
> ...


The totality of comments here cover most of the contributing factors, but I especially agree with the part I've bolded.

I had the fortune to sail with Evans Starzinger (world cruiser, look him up).
He told me that just 20 or 30 years ago, 30 feet was considered a large boat, and people were sailing all over the world. Now, people will tell you that 30 feet is barely suitable for sailing across the Chesapeake Bay.

As someone who took up sailing later in life, let me attempt to assuage the fears of some of you old salts-

Except for racing, I try not to let my GPS lure me into cutting too close to obstacles and shoals. I try to exercise good seamanship, and put as many coins in Vigor's Black Box as possible. I carry paper charts, I know how to read them and plot a course.

I can't take a site with a sextant though, and the Chesapeake has such negligible current, that my memory has lapsed on calculating set and drift. 
I wouldn't mind sitting down with someone over a beer for a refresher on that.

Seamanship is such a nebulous term, because it encompasses so much; Knowledge, technique, experience, judgement. Seamanship is like a musical instrument. Once you learn the basics like reading music and the keys, you'll spend the rest of your life trying to perfect the craft.

Evans once related to me, that John Rousmaniere said when lecturing or teaching, he prefers the term "seamanship" over "safety" because people tend to tune him out when he uses the word "safety".

I think that's because the word "safety" conjures visions of nanny state-ism, and sucking the very joy out of what we all love to do, whereas "seamanship" brings forth images of hard-earned experience, skills mastered over time, and a sense of fraternity with other experience mariners.

I guess I'll end it here, as this is getting long-winded.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

BubbleheadMd said:


> I had the fortune to sail with Evans Starzinger (world cruiser, look him up).
> He told me that just 20 or 30 years ago, 30 feet was considered a large boat, and people were sailing all over the world. Now, people will tell you that 30 feet is barely suitable for sailing across the Chesapeake Bay.


C'mon, Rich - haven't you heard? According to a recent issue of SAIL, 55' is now where it's at, the most robust portion of the new boat market...

I about had to gag a couple of years ago, when CRUISING WORLD referred in their review of a Najad 352 to it as a "Pocket Cruiser"...

Last week in delivered a Wauquiez 47 to its new owners... It's their FIRST boat... (and, a 47' Wauquiez is a BIG, powerful 47-footer, comparable to Beth & Evans' HAWK) Over the past year I have delivered First-Ever Boats to three other owners, only one of them was under 44 feet...


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

JonEisberg said:


> C'mon, Rich - haven't you heard? According to a recent issue of SAIL, 55' is now where it's at, the most robust portion of the new boat market...
> 
> .


I read that, too. I wondered if anyone else but me thought BS reading that.


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## GrummanPilot (Oct 25, 2011)

Minnewaska said:


> There is no question that electronic nav improvements have increased safety in aircraft, so why can't they do so in boats?


That's actually being debated on some aviation forums. Many of us can see that, while GPSs have improved "positional awareness", in many cases it results in a loss of "situational awareness".


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

JonEisberg said:


> C'mon, Rich - haven't you heard? According to a recent issue of SAIL, 55' is now where it's at, the most robust portion of the new boat market...
> 
> I about had to gag a couple of years ago, when CRUISING WORLD referred in their review of a Najad 352 to it as a "Pocket Cruiser"...
> 
> Last week in delivered a Wauquiez 47 to its new owners... It's their FIRST boat... (and, a 47' Wauquiez is a BIG, powerful 47-footer, comparable to Beth & Evans' HAWK) Over the past year I have delivered First-Ever Boats to three other owners, only one of them was under 44 feet...


Lol..that's a riot. Opinions like that, are yet another reason why everyone thinks that sailing is only for the wealthy.

Evans still believes in small boat sailing. He did encourage me to take my P30, coastal cruising. I said "Maine" he said, "Go to Newfoundland". :laugher


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

capta said:


> This has been bothering me for some time, now. I just don't understand what's going on with all these tall ships and yachts being abandoned or sunk, or like the racers off California last year, with significant loss of life.
> For years vessels like the Bounty, the Astrid, the Nina and Concordia sailed the seas avoiding hurricanes, "downdrafts" and rocks, but they all perished in the last few years.
> Never before have multiple vessels been abandoned in one season (that I know of) sailing from the East Coast to Bermuda, and it's happened two years in a row! Not racing, which is a whole other ball game, but just cruisers on their way to the Caribbean.
> And now Archangel is lost in an area well known and oft traveled by forum members; a seemingly unexplainable loss.
> ...


I agree...

I go back to what I said in another thread, and have been saying for a while: Boating has become too recreational.

Where else, and in what other 'sport'/hobbie/adventure/lifestyle (pick your word of choice), can one person, with ZERO training or licensing, take sooo many other people's lives in danger? Like I said before, how many Sea Rays, Hatteras, and sailboats (especially the Benehuntalinas) are sold to people with ZERO boating experience? I see and have seen it all the time!!

I have a lot of stories of this. I used to work the boat show for a Catalina dealership. I did not work for them. I did not get paid. I just knew a bit about boats and could give 'lookers' at the boat shows a real owners perspective. It was a great marketing tool for them because I was honest. I sold a lot of boats for them, and also killed quite a few sells too. However, I cannot tell you how many people walked onto those boats (200-300k boats) and signed the paperwork with zero boating experience. It was typically a guy out with his wife (and sometimes the kids), about 40-50 years old, has money, and sees the boat as a great way to enjoy the water and escape. So you put him behind the wheel of a very expensive (and complicated) boat that can kill people. Maybe less so with our boats, but still a real possibility. A slight tangent here, but I think that is why Benehuntalinas get a bad name too. The typical buyer of a Hylas, or Valiant, or PSC, or other high-end boat is generally a knowledgeable boater who has chosen that boat for a specific need (long distance passagemaking, for instance). They have owned boats before and know about their systems and how and what it takes to keep them up (including their annual costs... $$$$). Those boats are kept in better condition and maintained better because the owners knew better to begin with. However, when you get the typical Catalina buyer, how many of them are long time experienced sailors? How many know what it takes to keep them up? SO you now put a boat in a situation where the person taking care of it screws it up or fails to appreciate the money involved in maintaining it. It isnt the boats fault! Any boat would suffer in those conditions. But that is why I think production boats get the worst rap. Not to say that the Hylas or PSC is not a better built boat. It is. But that is why I think production boats are often ridiculed by others.

Now, back to the subject, how about selling a 45-50 foot Sea Ray, capable of killing a LOT of people on the boat and off, to someone with zero knowledge of boating. I have seen that a LOT. My favorite story was me and my wife getting on a new Sea Ray with X (I wont mention his name). He wanted to take us out to eat on his boat. This is a true story: He steered that boat via the chart plotter. No kidding. He used his radar and chart plotter to get him where he wanted to go. And he did it at a half plane so he could not even see over his bow. He could kill someone and it was a miracle he didn't. After that one ride, me and my wife (esp my wife) refused to ever step on a boat with him again. SO it would happen, not long after that, he steered to another restaurant and the chart plotter was a little off on the channel (duh!!). He took that boat on full plane and parked it up on the shoal. It was so bad, that Sea Tow had to walk to his boat to tell him it was a hard grounding (not covered and $$$$) and they couldn't begin to get him off until the next day at noon. So he spent the night with his wife on that shoal with a bear claw and fifth of vodka. There is more to that story, but the reality remains that he should never have been behind that wheel.

We as sailors consider ourselves different, and in some respects we are, but the reality is that even we have become too recreational. How often on here do we have people with little to no offshore experience asking about buying a boat to sail around the world or the carribean? And they dont even know what boat to buy, much less how to sail it! They can do this because they can buy a chartplotter and plug in St Johns, and they're off. If they run aground, they can call Sea Tow. If their engine craps out from lack of maintenance - Tow Boat US. If they get in to trouble, they have a sat phone to call the USCG. If things get really bad, you can push the little button on your EPIRB and get rescued.

Want more proof? How often do you hear some clown get on ch16 and have no clue what they are doing? They carry on a conversation like it is their personal cell phone. You have no idea how many people have asked me what that little black ball I fly means when I am anchored (even had LEO ask me once... really???). I run across people cruising (CRUISING!) without a single paper chart. The anchoring these days is atrocious! Walk the docks and see how many people dont know how to tie up their boats. 'Red, Right, Return', right?... NO!!! Glow sticks for Nav Lights (if any at all). Anchoring without a light. Motoring without a steaming light (what's that for??). Learn how to dock your boat or pay for instruction.

These are the basic, very basic, pieces of seamanship. They do not require $5000 in ASA classes to learn. I dont expect everyone to memorize all the different light patterns (though good seamanship requires have a guide for them at quick reference). It just requires taking enough interest, time, and pride in what you are doing to learn what you are doing. Become a student of it.

Of course, that isn't the easy way. The easy way is buying a chart plotter and blaming the plotter or manufacturer when things happen. And as long as people can write a check, be covered by insurance, and sail away in any size vessel, with any size engines, without any type of required education (ie, licensing), it will never change. And it will never change - because the day people have to be licensed and take a good seamanship course, is the day Sea Ray goes banckrupt.

Rant over.

Brian


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Cruisingdad said:


> I agree...
> 
> I go back to what I said in another thread, and have been saying for a while: Boating has become too recreational.
> 
> ...


There is no amount of regulation or licensing that will eliminate "stupid".

"Zero" training is something of a misnomer. Other countries have safe boating courses, many US states require a recreational boater safety card, attained by completing a boater safety course.

The system we have now, is only marginally worse than our ground-based driver's licensing programs. A new driver can still ignore all common sense, pack her car full of her 5 closest friends and kill all of them while texting behind the wheel.

What's lacking, is a level of common sense and risk assessment. It's a massive and embarassing shame, that people at this level of wealth, don't have the common sense to say "I'm new to boating, and I should educate myself before heading out".


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## poopdeckpappy (Jul 25, 2006)

> while GPSs ..............
> 
> .........in many cases it results in a loss of "situational awareness".


yes and there is a danger in that...agreed

It seems to be the trend that a CP & AP w/ a RC are the primary tools while hands on refers only to the cocktail glass and the chart(s) is a place mat/coaster protecting the nav desk


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

poopdeckpappy said:


> yes and there is a danger in that...agreed
> 
> It seems to be the trend that a CP & AP w/ a RC are the primary tools while hands on refers only to the cocktail glass and the chart(s) is a place mat/coaster protecting the nav desk


Hey, what else am I supposed to protect the varnish with?!

Sheesh... :laugher


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## rgscpat (Aug 1, 2010)

While the skill levels or recreational sailors and power boaters are often horrible, many of the losses that caught the headlines were by supposedly professional seamen. That also applies to the terrible losses from the racing boat Low Speed Chase off Farallon Island with a "rock star" pro driving the boat close to the Farallons. The loss off Dutch tall ship Astrid off Kinsale, Ireland seems to have been just bad luck in spite of precautions. 

By the way, I'll try to thoroughly un-remember Red Right Returning if I go navigating in the Old World!


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## tweitz (Apr 5, 2007)

I really like my chartpolotter, but I have never bothered to connect my chartplotter to the autopilot, because I can't conceive of a situation where I don't want to be forced to be manually aware of a turn. 
It is true that a generation ago no one would have thought of buying a 30 foot plus boat who had no experience, to say nothing of the larger ones. I still think it is better with sailors than powerboaters, because people at least don't have the illusion that it is a car, you turn the key, turn the wheel and go. In a sailboat you need to learn something, though not enough. I first went sailing almost 60 years ago, and am still learning, as I hope we all are.


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## Coquina (Dec 27, 2012)

Commercial pilot here - it is by NO MEANS a settled fact that electronics are making flying safer. There is some evidence that we have passed the optimum point and are now having issues with pilots that cannot do their job when the electrons misbehave.


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## nolatom (Jun 29, 2005)

"more money than brains"? That's always existed. Savvy business winners, clueless out on the water and never get that 'seat of the pants' learining that small (aka poor-people's) boats give you.

My main beef? lack of visual lookout. I crewed recently on a 100' passenger dive boat, offshore for a couple of days/nights. And I had to remind myself, as I got fascinated with the Echart, radar, AIS interlink, GPS, et al, YOU STILL HAVE TO LOOK OUT THE WINDOW!! Some vessels don't have AIS, even offshore. there's a reason we keep wheelhouses dark at night. Used to be if you saw a blue glow in that other wheelhouse it was the dreaded TV. Now it might be the echart AND the TV.

I started a thread on "the Sun" and how it affect who (doesn't) see whom out on the water. take a peek and move it on up if you're so inclined..


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

BubbleheadMd said:


> There is no amount of regulation or licensing that will eliminate "stupid".
> 
> "Zero" training is something of a misnomer. Other countries have safe boating courses, many US states require a recreational boater safety card, attained by completing a boater safety course.
> 
> ...


Well, the difference between the girl and the boater is that the girl at least took a class to know how to parallel park, that a stop light means stop, what the lines in the road are, etc. That she chooses to ignore them is stupid, but not ignorance. The boaters that get out there have no clue what the impeller is for, what the lights mean, what a nun or can is, and not to mention how to park or anchor his boat (I have a lot more examples), is both ignorant AND stupid. You can fix ignorance, you can't fix stupid. But stupid might (MIGHT) not pass the course and very likely would not take it. There is a big difference between taking a course to drive a car and taking one to fly a plane.

BTW, I took one of those fancy boaters ed courses that are mandated so I could drop my insurance (if you have not, check into it). Pfft. They are a joke. Better than nothing, but not much. I think boating at a certain length, horsepower, and tonnage should be licensed much more like a pilot license or at the very minimum a drivers license. Many of the things I find absurd would be gone (mostly because the jerks that do it wont bother with a license).

But don't worry. It will never happen. Like I said, the manufacturers will never allow that because of the sales loss... and they have a powerful lobby group. SO I will just get used to listening about the party someone is having at their docks on CH 16 and explaining to my neighbor that his anchor won't hold like that, etc.

Brian


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

GrummanPilot said:


> That's actually being debated on some aviation forums. Many of us can see that, while GPSs have improved "positional awareness", in many cases it results in a loss of "situational awareness".


I was referring to the bigger picture of added electronic navigation to aircraft over the years. It was only 50 years ago that planes would accidentally fly into embedded thunderstorms, which is nearly inconceivable now. Approaches can be made in zero zero conditions, conflicting traffic that is not possible to see when IMC is displayed in the cockpit along with terrain warning.

While there will always be human error, electronic nav has reduced the number of accidents overall.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

JonEisberg said:


> ........ Instead, this was the example of a very experienced professional captain, .......


I get your point, however, I think it's the professional pilot community that has notably become safer, not more complacent, due to technology.

The difference may be that there are airborne threats that are not identifiable any other way, particularly when inside a cloud.


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## Coquina (Dec 27, 2012)

It is actually VERY conceivalbe now sadly 
Without onboard radar, most pilots stayed well away from thunderstorms. Now with cheap NEXRAD devices, they fly right into them, not realizing the image they see is delayed by 10 minutes or maybe more and things change quickly 

All the GPS/XMWeather magic in the world does not beat your own radar display.



Minnewaska said:


> I was referring to the bigger picture of added electronic navigation to aircraft over the years. It was only 50 years ago that planes would accidentally fly into embedded thunderstorms, which is nearly inconceivable now. Approaches can be made in zero zero conditions, conflicting traffic that is not possible to see when IMC is displayed in the cockpit along with terrain warning.
> 
> While there will always be human error, electronic nav has reduced the number of accidents overall.


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## C P (Aug 9, 2013)

I'm not sure this is the answer, as I think it may be a combination of things. But a nasty trend I'm seeing is reliance on a stupid cell phone. I've had two customers in the last three months get "in trouble", and neither had a marine radio, (despite my utter insistence that they should), that called me on the phone to try and figure out what to do. Both of these mishaps could have turned very serious, very quickly, and almost did. Mercifully I got help for them both, despite being 50 miles away. I have very strong opinions about the i-idiot generation that I will keep to myself, but that phone is useless in a pinch. Had they not been able to connect with me, I'm not sure what their recourse would have been. And the fact that I rarely answer my phone anyway may have been just luck. Or something..


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

I may be your target or goat.
I started sailing in my twenties on my own boats. I moved up from a cape dory 25 then Mariner 28 then SHE 36 then Tayana 37 then PSC 34 and now my last boat and best love. However, there is a HUGE jump in skill set. I've gone to Bermuda using lower limb moonshots and Davis toys. I've never had the complexity of electronics I have now. I've never had the complexity of systems. It's the same ocean but now I feel I'm flying a C150 and before a paper kite. Everything is different and more complex
naturally aspirated diesel to electronically controlled turbo - used to just worry about getting fuel and compression and the thing goes.
bulkhead mounted heater- now webasto hydronic and separate AC
Sun, stars and moon- now three chartplotters and a LAN and interfaces with my smartphone and Ipad.Hell I can see what the admiral is doing at the helm while I sit on the throne.
A Fleming or Hydrovane- now a beefy autopilot and worries about amp draw, rudder angle sensors etc.
Kerosene lamp over the saloon table. Now LEDs up your butt.
Dip sticks in the tanks. Now a Phillippi system.

Don't get me wrong I LOVE my current boat and have no regrets but for present until I learn the systems and get comfortable they are a major distraction. Yes, I grew up with old limited technologies ( even remember when LORAN started and used RDF) and think the new better. However, given how terrified I am I can't imagine what the owner of a 50'er feels if that's his first boat. Maybe the difference is he is not smart enough to be scared. You don't know what you don't know. Sorry for the ramble. Seeya in Newport then Annapolis.


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## fryewe (Dec 4, 2004)

Seamanship is not simply experience and skills and tools but - more importantly - attitude.

The "right" attitude engenders a keen sense of priority and urgency. It also wards off laxity and laziness...especially when priorities and urgency demand.

Knowing what is important NOW and what will be important LATER creates the focus needed for using your experience and your skills and the tools at hand. Whatever those tools may be.

I think this "right" attitude is what is vanishing in our instant replay world.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Seamanship is 'vanishing' because people don't have enough time to sail. Our lives are too hectic, too many things competing for our time and attention. At least this is how it is with me. I'm Larry-the cable guy kind of a sailor, sailing by the seat of my pants...


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Kriss- gotta tell you I chuckle every time I read one of your posts because of the great Plato quote you use. Still as one who cruises with a smart phone,laptop and iPad to stay in touch with my business I don't think you're on it.(all gone in less than a couple of years with the line only being sail mail). Rather,think Frye is closer to the real nut. In a world where I come flying out of the hatch because I hear breakers and are told there's nothing going on because neither the radar or GPS suggest trouble the world has gotten screwy. Those who have limited experience of the natural world and think after the crash you just press "new game" are not going to make good sailors. Even with all the technologic bells and whistles attitude is everything. That attitude is finely honed by those experiences where the fecal matter has hit the fan.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Coquina said:


> It is actually VERY conceivalbe now sadly
> Without onboard radar, most pilots stayed well away from thunderstorms. Now with cheap NEXRAD devices, they fly right into them, not realizing the image they see is delayed by 10 minutes or maybe more and things change quickly
> 
> All the GPS/XMWeather magic in the world does not beat your own radar display.


If you're making the parallel between the same guy with more money than brains in boating or aviation, I would agree. However, I've not seen stats that support the actual point you made above. There continue to be non-instrument rated pilots that fly into instrument conditions in general, but I haven't heard of a particular increase, let alone likely caused by technology.

However, I think it's indisputable that technology has made air carrier and professional flight crews safer, or any private flight crew that devotes themselves to proper training.

Not to lose my overall point in the weeds here, I am only trying to say that technology itself can and does improve safety. Its a matter of how its used and by whom.


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## Coquina (Dec 27, 2012)

Actually there IS a statistic someplace about increased thunderstorm issues. This is pretty big on the aviation boards - fancy shiny glass toys leading pilots into situations beyond their ability. Back to boats - anyone remember the recently lost Navy minesweeper that ignored local advice and their own eyes to run hard up on a reef because the magic chart plotter showed deep water?


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

Boats share a lot with planes, they both take people into environments where they couldn't survive without the craft and the skill to pilot it.

If a car breaks a person can just get out and walk. It is only when an unprepared driver's car breaks down during a blizzard or in death valley that they find out what it is like for boaters and pilots every time they sail or fly.

Edit, I guess what I am saying is that I think that a lot of people believe in this illusion of safety that really doesn't exist with boats. It is a big ocean, a lot can and inevitably will go wrong, and you can't just get out and walk to the next exit when that happens.


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## AKscooter (Jan 18, 2009)

*anyone remember the recently lost Navy minesweeper that ignored local advice and their own eyes to run hard up on a reef because the magic chart plotter showed deep water?
* Nope, in the Philippines it is a continual source of great amusement.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Crosscheck should be SOP for all electronic assistance, even the autopilot. The minesweeper certainly didn't do so.


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## AKscooter (Jan 18, 2009)

*Crosscheck should be SOP for all electronic assistance, even the autopilot. The minesweeper certainly didn't do so. *

I would really be interested in knowing their SOP for shipboard operations. Checklists and follow ups are great tools for myself to maintain an even keel......

Sorry for the pun......just cannot help it on a Saturday night!


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

There is always going to be the problem with boats (and airplanes) of the person who finances are much more developed than their piloting skills.

You can buy as fancy or big a boat as you want, but you still have to get experience the way everybody else gets it, and at the same pace.


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

Good thread, I've been sailing for more than 40 years, and a pilot for only 2. I'm a VERY conservative (wimpy) pilot working on an instrument rating. I launch into fog and "reasonable" heavy weather without a second thought in the sailboat.

I believe in escalating gradually the situations you put yourself in based on increasing experience. 


I think seamanship is knowing what you don't know, and acting appropriately.

The people that scare me don't know what they don't know.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

capecodda said:


> a pilot ....
> I believe in escalating gradually.


Very useful for a pilot.  Unless there is a mountain in front of you


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## SecondWindNC (Dec 29, 2008)

I'm not sure the losses really are becoming more common. Ships have always been lost at sea. And probably less so now with the additional navigation aids than in the Age of Sail. But when one is lost, we're far more likely to hear about it and discuss it.


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

My personal belief is that with modern 'electronic' navigation there are many 'errors of resolution' ... or improper 'scale up'/magnification of the base charting from which the e-charts are made, especially charting that is derived from old lead-line soundings, etc.

In the paper chart days, skippers would pass by most 'danger zones' at considerable margin of safety distances because they knew that the old charts simply were not that accurate. With todays e-Nav much of the base data is still derived from lead-line data, especially in areas not frequented by the 'large commercial boats'; and still may include the relative inaccuracy of lead line soundings, etc., which when originally surveyed the 'expected' inaccuracies ('tolerance ranges' of measurement) defined the 'scale' of the charting. With e-Nav its really easy to 'magnify' at a scale that is much much different (and entirely inappropriate) than the original scale and the 'resolution enhancements' that the modern e-navigator uses can be 'waaaaay off'. 
The message here is if youre navigating in areas that were charted/defined/derived by the pre-WWII (and later) survey methods, dont depend on extreme MAGNIFICATION of an e-chart to insure your safety. Another way to put this if the base data was properly accurate for 1:50,000 or 1:75,000 scale charts (NAD1927, etc.), the 'stack up' of intrinsic error due to the eNavigation magnification scale up of the 'intrinsic margin of error' in the 'old data' will leave you very vulnerable when reading the exact same chart MAGNIFIED to 1:5,000 scale (WGS1984). The resolution error comes from scaling up inappropriately to a a _higher value of the intrinsic 'margin of error'_.

This is the same as 'believing everything that you read in print to be true' ... and with no consideration a 'grains of salt' taken with such readings.


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## Yorksailor (Oct 11, 2009)

Rich has it right, cruising full time we see 2-3 boats per year on the reef and when we talk to the people it is often caused by people zooming in and magnifying the errors in the charts and then believing the chart plotter.

The last boat we saw sink had just completed a transatlantic and they attempted a night entry into a bay we would not enter in daylight in a location where the chart plotters are out by at least 50 yds and the coral has been growing for over 50 yrs since that last survey.

Eyeball navigation with wide margins is the only way to go. We have seen errors as great as 500 yds in the chart plotter.

Phil

Phil


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

I don't see thec correlation. On one hand I agree with Jon that for some electronics and has created a false sense of security and people with not enough eperience attempt passages they never would have before. On the other hand that same electronics includes many boats with better radar, AIS, rapid update on charts, GPS coordinates with direct location. I remember when LORAN came out, the old salts railed against it. I think the benefits of he electronics far outweight the distractions when used as ONE of your aids to navigation. 

The statistics doe not show an increase ( even if you look at the last couple of years) in incidents or rescues. They in fact show relatively the same numbers. The Internet has helped publicize them more. We all can point to our own personal stories of ineptitude and experiences with others as you have, but that really doesn't mean overall there has been an increase percentage wise. Again the stats show pretty much static.

The most important factor will always been the experience and brain of he sailor to interpret all the data available, and he seamanship skills thy have. 

Now to the issue of the first time purchasers buying larger boats. It almost seems like a bit of jealousy or criticism that others do this by some posters here. There's an attitude that since I came up the hard way so therefore you should. I started small and built up from that so that's the right way to go.

To me it doesn't make any difference whether your first car is a Yugo or. Mercedes. The expense nor the size of the car is relevant as to the persons ability to use the car safely. Just because someone starts with. 40+ boat doesn't mean they would be any safer with a 30 footer. It all goes back to the experience and seamanship skill of he individual captain and should not be generalized to a whole class of pople. We all know many idiots or stupids with smaller boats too. 

Stupidity does not know size. It also does not necessarily know experience. There is no training stupidity out of a person. We just have to be aware they are out t here.And protect ourselves accordingly.


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Very useful for a pilot.  Unless there is a mountain in front of you


yea, good think Cape Cod is pretty flat


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

I think the seamanship these days is far, far farrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr better than any time previously.

Out "here" in the wild blue yonder of the Caribbean its quite rare to see someone who has no idea and a brain to match.

The younger generation is much more aware than the older generation (as a generalisation). None under, say, 55 are using paper charts at all in primary navigation; everyone (under 55) who does not have an AIS sees their value; everyone who I meet who have recently taken up cruising is quite serious about the sailing, learning and skills.

I remember the old days before GPS when I was just a lad on my first few seasons racing off-shore along the Australia East Coast. The Navigator and Skipper never knew where the hell we were. We could never have won a bloody race becasue we couldn't find the bloody finish line.

For those old gits now to tell me that 'seamanship' can fallen into a cluster dump of refuse is patently wrong.

As that map of Hatteras in the earlier post shows there were many more disasters then than now.

Those at sea now 'living the life' who are modern in outlook and equipment should congratulate themselves for being the safest seamen of any age.


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

I disagree. 
The parallel would be ask what a 'modern' pilot would do when all the 'gizmos' fail in the aircraft ... and wasnt that exactly what happened to the Air France flight that nosedived into the Atlantic after it left Brazil? Sorry, give me an experienced 'stick and rudder' pilot for when the gizmos fail .... or are WRONG? Same applies to 'seamanship' ... its an acquired art, not something that only takes 'waiting for a boot-up' routine.


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## tweitz (Apr 5, 2007)

Heard the Coast Guard on the radio responding to a call for assistance. The boater's battery had died. He had no idea where he was. I heard the Coastie talking to the bay constable to see if they could help. All the boater could tell them is it was a white motorboat! Mind boggling.


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## chip (Oct 23, 2008)

SecondWindNC said:


> I'm not sure the losses really are becoming more common. Ships have always been lost at sea. And probably less so now with the additional navigation aids than in the Age of Sail. But when one is lost, we're far more likely to hear about it and discuss it.


I was going to say something very similar. There's a cool little museum in Beach Haven called the New Jersey Maritime Museum that has a database of 7200 known shipwrecks off the NJ coast, the vast majority before GPS, the vast majority professionally crewed, and that's only for like 130 miles of shoreline. I guess the more important technological advance since the old days is weather forecasting, but still...

At least when a ship went down in the 19th century, there was no public forum for the inland dinghy sailor to endlessly pontificate on what the skipper did wrong.


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## fryewe (Dec 4, 2004)

"Seamanship" in this discussion seems to be narrowly defined as the ability to navigate and pilot rather than the broader meaning. And clearly navigation and piloting errors are prime contributors to loss of vessels and crews being placed in danger.

Considering seamanship in this thread using that narrow definition:

- I think that those who go to sea now with near-continuous fix information have a limited understanding of how to translate fix information into what is commonly called "estimated position" or EP. How many who know how to do it still do so with the 3 or 4 GPSs (Plotter/AIS/Handheld/Smart autopilot) giving us continuous fix info? 

- In the "old days" when fix information wasn't continuous or necessarily accurate or reliable prudent mariners spent a good deal of time evaluating their navigation data to determine their EP. They realized that EP was the center of a "circle of uncertainty" within which - given various fixed and variable errors in navigation data - the ship would be located but that the EXACT position of the ship could never be known.

- They knew and continuously evaluated the errors that contributed to position uncertainty on the chart:
-- Fix error
-- Set and drift due to current
-- Leeway due to windage
-- Steering error
-- Compass error

and generally kept a hand DR from one fix to the next. They kept the entire circle of uncertainty safe until they could "collapse" the circle with a new fix.

They knew that all charts had errors and carefully evaluated every (paper) chart while voyage planning to understand the age and type of the survey(s) the chart was based on including sounding distribution and method. No one I know does this on a chart plotter.

With all that as background I ask:
- How often do you all evaluate your GPS fix for accuracy when underway? Do you do it periodically or is there some key you use to draw your attention to the need to evaluate fix accuracy? If you have to evaluate accuracy how do you assign error to the fix other than the "plus or minus 16 feet" or whatever the display says? Does your GPS unit signal with an audible signal when it has lost track on enough satellites to get a fix? 
- Do any of you still use the concept of EP when navigating with GPS?
- How many of you still hand DR to stay in practice on the odd chance that all your GPS fix equipment goes Tango Uniform on you?


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

SecondWindNC said:


> I'm not sure the losses really are becoming more common. Ships have always been lost at sea. And probably less so now with the additional navigation aids than in the Age of Sail. But when one is lost, we're far more likely to hear about it and discuss it.


I've had that same map framed on the wall in my 'office' for a couple of decades... Frankly, I think there's little relevance between those ships lost, and the spirit of the OP's post, and the sort of 'yachtsmen' I understand him to be referring to...

The overwhelming percentage of the Ghost Fleet on that map were sailing ships lost in the 19 century, prior to the age of steam... The next largest category is merchant vessels sunk by German U-Boats during WW II...

I'm gonna guess very few of those ships that were driven ashore along the Outer Banks were abandoned hundreds of miles at sea after being "caught in a storm", their crews called for rescue from another passing vessel, and drifted for several weeks until finally fetching up on the beach, little worse for wear...

Like this one, for instance... 

Sailboat That Traversed Sea Alone Scrapped for $1 | The Vineyard Gazette - Martha's Vineyard News


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

gfh said:


> At least when a ship went down in the 19th century, there was no public forum for the inland dinghy sailor to endlessly pontificate on what the skipper did wrong.


There was such a public forum, the difference is that it served beer.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

fryewe said:


> "Seamanship" in this discussion seems to be narrowly defined as the ability to navigate and pilot rather than the broader meaning. And clearly navigation and piloting errors are prime contributors to loss of vessels and crews being placed in danger.
> 
> Considering seamanship in this thread using that narrow definition:
> 
> ...


Good points

I am sure many don't do true DR anymore and a very dependent on their GPS fixes. Yes our CP as well as smart phone and IPad have audible signals when the lose the fix.

When we travel offshore or in fog we employ our charts and plot positions every hour. First by our estimations, then verified by our GPS fixes . Checks and balances not depending one on method. GPS when working has improved the system of DR.

In passages, races, I have previously taken there wasn't always the array of electronics there are today so that's how I was taught by other more experienced sailors. Even in recent years offshore experiences we have always kept a plotted chart with position. To plot expected course on a paper chart it is necessary to utilize the mitigating factors, current, wind drift or slide, to do the same on a CP you still have to do that. But can be used the same way as a paper chart, with the advantage of having a more accurate position than a circle of certainty that DR gives you.

We have always used the GPS as one of the tools for navigation, not the only one. I would say in my circle about 3/4 still do both DR as well as GPS navigation with about 1/4 whose only knowledge s the GPS.

That being said unless an EMP takes out all the satellites, isn't it fair to say that there are enough means on board to get a fix even if the electrical systems are all off. The position may be off 16 ft, but I trust its accuracy for exact position is more accurate and within my circle of DR position.

Seamanship to me is more than just navigation. It is also the ability to understand how to problem solve issues on your boat as well as continually assess changing conditions in weather, sea state and of curse wind and wind direction. There are so many facets of seamanship.

Some people i have found are great open water sailors, but when placed in confined spaces like NY Harbor, the Chesapeake, or any other closer quarter sailing they are not as confident or competent.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

How about a vote for the best navigator of all time?

I'll say captain cook.

What say you tribe?


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

aeventyr60 said:


> How about a vote for the best navigator of all time?
> 
> I'll say captain cook.
> 
> What say you tribe?


Amerigo Vespucci


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

chef2sail said:


> Amerigo Vespucci


"They live together without king, without government, and each is his own master...Beyond the fact that they have no church, no religion and are not idolaters, what more can I say? They live according to nature, and may be called Epicureans rather than Stoics."
- Amerigo Vespucci


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Noah

best intentional grounding ever


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

RichH said:


> My personal belief is that with modern 'electronic' navigation there are many 'errors of resolution' ... or improper 'scale up'/magnification of the base charting from which the e-charts are made, especially charting that is derived from old lead-line soundings, etc.
> 
> In the paper chart days, skippers would pass by most 'danger zones' at considerable margin of safety distances because they knew that the old charts simply were not that accurate. With todays e-Nav much of the base data is still derived from lead-line data, especially in areas not frequented by the 'large commercial boats'; and still may include the relative inaccuracy of lead line soundings, etc., which when originally surveyed the 'expected' inaccuracies ('tolerance ranges' of measurement) defined the 'scale' of the charting. With e-Nav its really easy to 'magnify' at a scale that is much much different (and entirely inappropriate) than the original scale and the 'resolution enhancements' that the modern e-navigator uses can be 'waaaaay off'.
> The message here is if youre navigating in areas that were charted/defined/derived by the pre-WWII (and later) survey methods, dont depend on extreme MAGNIFICATION of an e-chart to insure your safety. Another way to put this if the base data was properly accurate for 1:50,000 or 1:75,000 scale charts (NAD1927, etc.), the 'stack up' of intrinsic error due to the eNavigation magnification scale up of the 'intrinsic margin of error' in the 'old data' will leave you very vulnerable when reading the exact same chart MAGNIFIED to 1:5,000 scale (WGS1984). The resolution error comes from scaling up inappropriately to a a _higher value of the intrinsic 'margin of error'_.
> ...


Several times before, here and elsewhere, I have cited Nigel Calder's HOW TO READ A NAUTICAL CHART, which offers his usual lucid, analytical take on precisely these issues... May as well do it again, towards the end of this piece he did for OCEAN NAVIGATOR, he gets to the heart of what you are talking about... With so many folks today relying on e-charting exclusively, it's very important for 'navigators' to understand this stuff...

How accurate are our charts? - Ocean Navigator - January/February 2003

In my observation, what amazes me the most today, is the lack of appreciation for the distinction between your position on a _chart_, and your position on the _earth's surface_... The faith that many sailors today have that those are always identical is simply astonishing...

The last time I was in Allan's Cay, I met another cruiser who was headed back across the Yellow Bank towards Nassau. Only problem was, he was gonna be doing so in extremely poor light conditions... No problem, however - in speaking with him, it became apparent that he truly believed that Monty & Sarah Lewis had charted _every single coral head_ that existed along the track between Allan's and Porgee Rock, and as long as he steered around the little asterisks on his EXPLORER CHARTS, he'd be fine...

Now, to be fair, he probably would be, the odds of hitting a head with 6' draft along that route probably ARE somewhat slim... But still, it's the attitude and faith placed in the accuracy and completeness of cartography even as brilliant as Monty & Sarah's that often leaves me simply shaking my head at some of the 'seamanship' I see being applied today...

UFB...


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

chef2sail said:


> I remember when LORAN came out, the old salts railed against it.


Perhaps my memory is failing me, but I don't remember much of that at all  They don't come much 'saltier' than Down East lobstermen, and they sure embraced Loran pretty quickly, and even bitched like hell when the decision was made to discontinue the system...



chef2sail said:


> The statistics doe not show an increase ( even if you look at the last couple of years) in incidents or rescues. They in fact show relatively the same numbers. The Internet has helped publicize them more. We all can point to our own personal stories of ineptitude and experiences with others as you have, but that really doesn't mean overall there has been an increase percentage wise. Again the stats show pretty much static.


Well, I'm still waiting to see these statistics and facts _pertaining specifically to sailing yachts_, which of course is the subject under discussion... I keep hearing they're out there, somewhere, I just wish someone could offer a cite 



chef2sail said:


> Now to the issue of the first time purchasers buying larger boats. It almost seems like a bit of jealousy or criticism that others do this by some posters here. There's an attitude that since I came up the hard way so therefore you should. I started small and built up from that so that's the right way to go.
> 
> To me it doesn't make any difference whether your first car is a Yugo or. Mercedes. The expense nor the size of the car is relevant as to the persons ability to use the car safely. Just because someone starts with. 40+ boat doesn't mean they would be any safer with a 30 footer. It all goes back to the experience and seamanship skill of he individual captain and should not be generalized to a whole class of pople. We all know many idiots or stupids with smaller boats too.
> 
> Stupidity does not know size. It also does not necessarily know experience. There is no training stupidity out of a person. We just have to be aware they are out t here.And protect ourselves accordingly.


Different strokes for different folks, I suppose, but when I was delivering that Wauquiez 47 I referred to earlier, all I kept thinking is that this was NOT a boat that I'd want to try to learn how to sail on 

flyingwelshman's thread on walking before running supports the notion that many others feel the same way, that in starting out in a large boat with electric winches and bowthrusters, one misses many opportunities to learn the subtleties of sailing or boathandling that one can only detect on a boat small enough to lend feedback to minor corrections of the helm, the tweaking of a traveler or cunningham, whatever...

In the end, I rate this trend of starting out in larger boats as just one more thing that winds up reinforcing the powerboat mentality that's creeping into cruising and sailing today, and ultimately contributes to motoring more, and sailing less...


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

JonEisberg said:


> No problem, however - in speaking with him, it became apparent that he truly believed that Monty & Sarah Lewis had charted _every single coral head_ that existed along the track between Allan's and Porgee Rock, and as long as he steered around the little asterisks on his EXPLORER CHARTS, he'd be fine...


I'm laughing because my wife said basically the same thing one day when I had anchored in the Exumas. She pointed to one of the little asterisks and said, don't you think we are a little close to that?

I asked her. The water is clear as it can be. Do you see a coral head anywhere near us?


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Group9 said:


> I'm laughing because my wife said basically the same thing one day when I had anchored in the Exumas. She pointed to one of the little asterisks and said, don't you think we are a little close to that?
> 
> I asked her. The water is clear as it can be. Do you see a coral head anywhere near us?


Hey, as long as you're anchored on top of the little "Anchor" symbol on the chart, you're fine 

One sees this constantly, of course... I once arrived in Rock Sound, Eleuthera to ride out a strong frontal passage... It's a big, wide open harbor, and the obvious place to be with a strong breeze clocking from SW to N, would seem to me to be tucked up into the NW corner of the bight as far as your draft would allow...










When I came around the point and into the harbor, there were already about 8-10 boats huddled together somewhat on the W side of the harbor, but still seeming fairly exposed... As I inched my way past them to the north, I found I was able to get up into a much more protected spot, considerably further to the N... Next morning after the front had come through overnight, that little fleet was pitching and sailing about wildly in a considerable chop generated by 25-30 knots of breeze, while I was riding fairly quietly in wavelets topping out at about 8 inches...

Wasn't until my second cup of coffee, that it dawned upon me that all those other boats - several of which likely were shallower draft than I, and could have worked their way in much closer to shore - were clustered PRECISELY where Monty & Sarah's little anchor said they should be...


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

> ]Perhaps my memory is failing me, but I don't remember much of that at all - Jon Eisenberg


Same argument back then. The electronics will fail....then what will you do



> Well, I'm still waiting to see these statistics and facts _pertaining specifically to sailing yachts_, which of course is the subject under discussion... I keep hearing they're out there, somewhere, I just wish someone could offer a cite Jon Eisenberg


We've been through this before Jon. As a* whole *if you compare boating in general incidents/ recues and mishaps over the past few years the trend is downward. They probably don't break it down into sailboats, powerboats, rowboats, rubber duckys. But logic says that the percentage of sailboat, powerboat, rowboat and rubber ducky incidents would remain somewhat similar ( even maybe increasing for PB the way people talk about them here)



> Different strokes for different folks, I suppose, but when I was delivering that Wauquiez 47 I referred to earlier, all I kept thinking is that this was NOT a boat that I'd want to try to learn how to sail on Jon Eisenberg


Different strokes for different folks. They could afford it, more power to them. My wife has learned on a 35 footer. She did not go in a progression from smaller boats to larger boats like I did ( lasers, hobies, 28 Islander). She is no less adept, no less of a navigator, no less cautions and no less safety conscious.



> flyingwelshman's thread on walking before running supports the notion that many others feel the same way, that in starting out in a large boat with electric winches and bowthrusters, one misses many opportunities to learn the subtleties of sailing or boathandling that one can only detect on a boat small enough to lend feedback to minor corrections of the helm, the tweaking of a traveler or cunningham, whatever..Jon Eisenberg.


I understand what you are saying and even part of me somewhat agrees, but transferring that mentality to learning how to drive a car, does that mean people should start out learning and driving a Yugo with no power steering, no creature comforts, more feedback through the wheel and eschew vehicles with those features. There is no data to support that "assertion", just a feeling and a few personal anecdotal references. So who determines what walking is and what running is?

Are these people of today learning on bigger boats causing or having more accidents? Statistics say no. Causing more problems? No statistics to support that either. Some of us see more incidents....or do we?

If they have the bucks to pay for it....so be it. No jealousy from me.


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## Dean101 (Apr 26, 2011)

I think it all comes down to people. Some can learn from the mistakes of others or are capable of listening to sound advice without taking offense while others think it can't happen to them or don't want to be lectured to. My first boat was a 32' Endeavour. My only sailing experience was 20 years prior while daysailing with a friend on a Catalina 27 in San Diego, once in San Francisco, and once in Manilla Bay. Many on here may say that 32' was too much boat for a beginner. I would disagree. I disagree because from the start I respected the boat. She weighed 11,600 lbs and I had a good idea of how much damage that could do. I took her out in light winds. On my first trip I threw out an empty 2 liter bottle and made approaches to it both under power and under sail on a day there were very few other boats about. I spent over 4 hours approaching that bottle as if it was a concrete dock and I would sink if I hit it. I sunk my boat several times that day but all the sinkings were early on. I had much more confidence when I put her back in the slip.

I moved her shortly after that trip to a much larger lake. During the time of my move I realized I had made a very stupid mistake. I had learned 20 years ago that port tack/overtaking/windward boats must give way and powerboats give way to sail. When I got my copy of the navigation rules I realized their was so much more to know so I studied that book before I ever took her out again. I studied basic navigation. I got a current copy of the chart book for my area. My next trip was a weekend excursion on the lake. My only electronics was the depth meter and a handheld GPS unit. I followed my progress on the charts. Sure, I used the GPS but I knew exactly where I was on the chart at all times. With a 4'5" draft I mentally set a safe depth of 10'. Sand bars move so I kept a safe distance from the charted bars. When I actually anchored I had already selected a charted area with enough depth to allow me a 7:1 rode length with a clear 360 degree swing. I had my approach visualized and I had an escape plan if I needed it. It was a rather smallish cove. I had a great weekend of sailing even though the winds were only light to moderate. On the way back they were so light that I had to motor to get back before dark. The engine overheated. I cleaned the water strainer and restarted. Still overheating. Rather than tinker with it in the middle of a channel with barge traffic, I raised the sails and learned another lesson. Become better aquainted with a diesel engine. The long trip back at exactly 1 mph on my GPS and my 1st docking under sail taught me the folly of not knowing everything I could about my boat. Respect is not enough. I learned from my mistakes and have since made an effort to make sure those mistakes are not repeated.

If you've managed to stay with me this far then let me tell you how I could have done it. I could have jumped on that boat, backed her out of the slip without telling the people in the next slip it was my first boat and asking if they could lend a hand if needed, gunned the throttle and shoot out into the lake. I could have cruised around without knowing what was under my keel. Screw the practice, I can handle it. There are bumpers (yes, I know they are called fenders but I'm in character) on the boat so what the hell, let's have fun. On my weekend trip I would do the same thing. I don't need to read a book and I damn sure don't want to spend $15 on a chartbook. I have my GPS! Just keep it between the buoys! WOOHOOO!!!! What fun! Ok, drop the anchor. How much line to pay out? I'll tug on it. If I cant pull it up, then it should be fine. Damn engine overheated! Well, I'm in the middle of the channel. If anybody comes along they can see I'm not moving so they will avoid me while I spend the next hour or so reading the manual and figuring out what's wrong. Lucky thing I came back on deck. Why is that barge honking his horn? What the hell, he almost hit me! Who does he think he is? He don't own this lake. Guess I'll have to call the marina on the VHF for a tow. (On radio) "Hello, marina... Can you hear me?... This is Dean, can you come tow me in?" 

My point in all this is that I think no matter what type of gadgets you have, or even if you have nothing, it boils down to people. It's whether or not you are willing to learn and have some respect for what you are doing and what you are doing it on. Society seems to have become so fast paced and trained us to rush to the goal and forget the milestones. Technology has enabled that mindset. It allows us to do without learning to do. You will NEVER hear me say "that can never happen to me" because that is when Karma will bite me in the butt. I owned my boat for a year before I had to sell her. In that year plus the day sails in San Diego I've experienced a lost rudder at the mouth of San Diego Bay, engine failure on the lake, and a broken prop shaft. I've had to dock single handed twice under sail. Once at night in calm conditions and once in daylight in very stressful conditions. I posted about that in the thread "Big Freakin Sails". So yes, it can happen to me, or anyone else no matter what your experience level. If you think it can't then I feel for you.


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## poopdeckpappy (Jul 25, 2006)

Dean, that was a good post. once in a while I do a docking class here in SD and I'll do senarios like you did with the water bottle. You probably remember the customs dock at the south end of SI. if you do you'll know that half that dock is taken by off duty harbor patrol boats, add in a 80' boat clearing in and there's not much space left. 

What I would do is take students over to the dock ( on a not so busy day )and I would use whatever was avalable to mark limits ( boarding steps, Trash can or whatever) I would tell them that this step is a 3 million dollar boat, that trash can was a 7 million dollar boat and we have no insurance, now dock.

It was a fun drill, everyone has a good time and by the end of the 4hrs they were docking a C-32 in a 36+/- foot space, granted in the beginning we did around 60 million in imaginary damage.:laugher


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## foamy (Nov 26, 2012)

Been at this boating stuff on and off since the late 50's and still learning new things. I have owned three sail boats during the last 25 years. Done numerous 12 to 20 day passages and countless overnighters, racing and cruising. I also teach navigation. Some observations:

About 20 years ago I was returning from Catalina Island in dense fog in my 27 foot race boat in cruiser mode, stripped out, paper charts doing DRs, with confirmation using small LORAN unit. Big 50-some foot sport fisher comes out of the fog doing about 15 knots, then slows down and comes along side. The skipper asked what the heading was to Avalon. Excuse me, the vessel had about tens of thousands of dollars of electronic equipment aboard, go figure.

I had a slip that was in between two broker slips who sold 40-43 foot trawlers, a million plus dollars new. I met several new owners over the period of a couple of years. All were new to boating; these trawlers were their first boat!

Captain's licenses. I have met many individuals who has this license and do not know the first thing about navigation, etc. Some spent numerous hours as deck hands or less on commercial boats or what ever, but never in the position to handle the vessel, anchor, use radio communication, or navigate. But because they had the necessary sea hours or days, they qualified to take the license classes and exam. Just because you can pass an examination test does not reflect on your actual on the water skills.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

chef2sail said:


> > Well, I'm still waiting to see these statistics and facts pertaining specifically to sailing yachts, which of course is the subject under discussion... I keep hearing they're out there, somewhere, I just wish someone could offer a cite Jon Eisenberg
> 
> 
> We've been through this before Jon. As a* whole *if you compare boating in general incidents/ recues and mishaps over the past few years the trend is downward. They probably don't break it down into sailboats, powerboats, rowboats, rubber duckys. But logic says that the percentage of sailboat, powerboat, rowboat and rubber ducky incidents would remain somewhat similar ( even maybe increasing for PB the way people talk about them here)


yes, I know we've been over this before... Again, may I remind you it is simply my _impression_ that incidents of the sort the OP is referring to _seem_ to be occurring with greater frequency... This is SAILNET, we are discussing] the examples involving _sailing yachts_... It is not Sea Ray owners who are setting out for Bermuda, and abandoning their boats halfway there, after all - so whatever statistics they might be racking up really aren't relevant, here...

We'll just have to agree to disagree, but until someone can produce statistics specific to sailing yachts, I - not to mention others such as Donald Street, Herb McCormick, or Charles Doane - will remain skeptical of any claims that such examples of poor seamanship, or people 'out-sailing' their level of experience or ability, are on a downward trend...

And as for the argument that the internet has become one massive piece of cyber flypaper that catches each and every mishap, I'm not so sure about that, either... There is still PLENTY that happens out there that escapes our attention... Here's another Swan found adrift in the Atlantic recently - I hadn't heard about this one, had you? The Russkies found themselves a nice one, here, and towed it into Havana ... Impressive testimony to Swan quality, that it survived the freakin' tow 








chef2sail said:


> Different strokes for different folks. They could afford it, more power to them. My wife has learned on a 35 footer. She did not go in a progression from smaller boats to larger boats like I did ( lasers, hobies, 28 Islander). She is no less adept, no less of a navigator, no less cautions and no less safety conscious.
> 
> I understand what you are saying and even part of me somewhat agrees, but transferring that mentality to learning how to drive a car, does that mean people should start out learning and driving a Yugo with no power steering, no creature comforts, more feedback through the wheel and eschew vehicles with those features. There is no data to support that "assertion", just a feeling and a few personal anecdotal references. So who determines what walking is and what running is?
> 
> ...


Actually, I would suggest that someone who learns to drive with a simple vehicle affording qualities such as "more feedback through the wheel", or a manual transmission, and without automated control systems such as ABS, actually ARE likely to be better drivers, in the end... Every time I drive up to a ski area in a snowstorm, I can't help but think I might be seeing fewer Lexus SUVs in ditches along the way, if more of those folks had first learned to drive in the snow in a big old 60's vintage rear-wheel drive hunk of Detroit steel and chrome 

Look, I'm not suggesting that people starting out in large boats are having more mishaps, or whatever... I'm just always curious about, and wondering as to the possible causes, as to why I so often see such abysmal sail trim, for example, among cruisers out there... (On those rare occasions when I actually see a cruising boat under sail, that is ) And, I simply think that much of it comes down to many have never developed the 'feel' that is more likely to be learned from sailing smaller, more responsive boats... There are undoubtedly many exceptions, such as your wife, but I think that for many people out there, they're just never gonna pick up some of the more nuanced aspects of sailing required to keep an overburdened cruising boat moving in light to moderate conditions, that they would have from doing some racing, or sailing aboard more responsive craft...

One thing sailing small boats definitely teaches one quickly, is the importance of weight aboard, how important its distribution can be to performance, and the dramatic degradation of the boat's sailing qualities when overloaded...

There's an awful lot of Kroozers out there, who could have benefited from learning that lesson in a smaller boat, early on...


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## Elegua (Oct 22, 2010)

Interestingly, I just did have all my electronics fail. The PO had wired ships power, the inverter charger and a 1200 watt/12v windlass to the same 200 amp breaker. When it popped re-setting the anchor, everything went dead, except the engine, which luckily was already running. 

I'm very glad that I had completely independent luddite naviguessing tools - and a clear moonlight night - and low tide on arrival. Without that, the outcome might have been very different.


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## rgscpat (Aug 1, 2010)

The analogy to driving a car might be that most people don't start out at age 15 or 16 or whatever by learning to drive an 18-wheeler tractor-trailer rig hauling explosives... or start out driving one of Australia's "road trains". 

Although when I was 16, I was backing a boat trailer down the ramp... but it wasn't a particularly big trailer or boat.


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## poopdeckpappy (Jul 25, 2006)

How secure is GPS


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## Uricanejack (Nov 17, 2012)

When I were a lad. The Older and wiser sailors complained about.
The lack of respect for our elders
The music I listened to. 
Too much reliance on new-fangled technology like, sounders and RDF even binoculars.
And the losses of traditional seaman like skill’s such as hand lead lines, log lines and spotting islands from cloud formations or swell variations. 
And my generations general lack of seamanship.
Now I am older I can complain about everyone else’s lack of seamanship. And point out to all and sundry about how back in my day we were so much better.
I’m sure my Viking ancestors and each generation since have complained about the new lateen sails and rudders and compasses there descendants started using. Never mind Donkey engines Steam, Diesel down to the present day. And when todays new sailors grow old and experienced they will complain about the next and there loss of traditional seamanship.
What’s changed? 
To the grumpy old fart who once asked me if I knew the difference between a hickory fid and a marlin spike. The answer is yes. Fortunately another old sailor showed me once upon a time long ago. He’d be horrified by my use of tape instead of twine, a screwdriver instead of a spike, a mallet instead of rolling. 
What is the world coming to?
I sail for recreation, as do many thousands of other’s most with limited experience, a little bit of common sense and an ability to learn from our errors. We do just fine
A comparatively small number are unfortunate. There errors happen at a time when they all line up with other unfortunate circumstances which allow an accident to happen involving the loss of a vessel and or life. 
There but for the grace of my god go I


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## Uricanejack (Nov 17, 2012)

aeventyr60 said:


> How about a vote for the best navigator of all time?
> 
> I'll say captain cook.
> 
> What say you tribe?


Bligh?


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## MarkBarrett (May 31, 2013)

i need to ship now and go to sail on everytime..........


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## aprilsails (Jul 24, 2013)

I find the OP's post beginning odd especially in reference to how "high tech" gizmos are making sailors take risks or make mistakes that they wouldn't have made if they did things the old fashioned way.

I learned how to sail on Tall Ships. The first ship I sailed with had no GPS unit for the first 3 summers I spent onboard. When we went down the East Coast to Boston we finally invested in a haldheld GPS which was used to call in out position once a day for the Tall Ship races. We did have a depth sounder, a VHF radio, and a handheld windmeter but that was the extent of our high tech toys. We did speed estimates using a timer and a floating bottle on a rope and all of our fixes were done using dead reckoning and line of site navigation, as well as celestial when we were offshore.

So for a young sailor (29) I have a strong foundation in very traditional seamanship. That being said, I appreciate the convenience of GPS, love my speedometer, and I am a very cautious sailor. Years of navigating with a 12' draught and not being certain where the hell I really was except for once every 15 - 30 minutes means that I stay in the deep water and well shy of the shallows. My husband was laughing at me when we sailed a 5' draft boat around and I was avoiding areas charted at 15'.

It should be noted that I am absolutely terrible at sail trim since I suck at dealing with anything that doesn't have squares or isn't a dinghy. I'm going to take a course soon to learn how to handle a spinnaker.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

If you're a new boater what you'll see in articles, read in ads and hear at boat shows is that GPS is accurate to within 3 feet. 

You will hear it over and over as accepted fact. You will NOT hear about how the old the chart data is, that the shoals shift with every storm or that some hazards are simply put in the wrong place on the chart.

You are used to turn-by-turn directions in your car. When you're constantly told how accurate these systems are why would you assume differently?

Experience teaches you to keep lots of distance between yourself and hazards.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Once again I'll be your goat.
Last year cruised my PSC34. No trouble in/out pump outs/fuel docks any tight stop. No bow thruster just back down on springline to get the bow out. This year 46' boat with all the geegaws- bow thruster etc. Whole new ballpark. Whole new set of skills to learn. New level of stress as I'm moving my house not a weekend cottage. Thing is any time I can watch my slip mates do it I watch and learn. Any time I can get an experienced hand coach me I listen and learn. At end of the day many have no respect for the skillset so don't learn it even if on the water for years. They don't respect others, their lives and property. Without that basic respect for the sea and others the motivation to gain seamanship is not there. Whether being more technologically connected as made us less attached to each other and the realities of the world can be argued but as my grandmother once told me "when you stop learning you better be dead or you soon will be".


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
"The statistics doe not show an increase ( even if you look at the last couple of years) in incidents or rescues. They in fact show relatively the same numbers. The Internet has helped publicize them more. We all can point to our own personal stories of ineptitude and experiences with others as you have, but that really doesn't mean overall there has been an increase percentage wise. Again the stats show pretty much static."

Be that as it may be, the reality is apparently not showing up in those statistics.
There were three sailing vessel losses with fatalities over the last year or so off the California coast where there had never been a fatality in any of the three races before.
The abandonment of numerous vessels crossing from the east coast to Bermuda is unprecedented over the last three years. Thirty foot seas (or more) and seventy knot winds are not a rarity on a crossing from the east coast to Bermuda, in fact they are to be expected.
This post was not about the number of rescues the USCG does annually on coastal duties, but about experienced and sometimes professional captains losing or abandoning boats in situations that may be extreme, but certainly should not be life threatening.
The Bounty, Concordia and Astrid all had highly respected and experienced professional captains aboard at the time of their loss. If we keep losing tall ships at this rate, there will be none for our children's children to visit on the waterfront or sail on.
Even with the better communications today, I do believe that we are seeing a disproportionate loss of vessels operated by highly respected and experienced captains.
And please, guys, don't show those maps of the coasts of the US, UK or NZ showing the shipwrecks from the days before engines, electronic navigation and efficient rescues; that's just NOT the subject here.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

I live in a town where captains are a dime a dozen. These yahoo's that are taking cattle-maran boats with over 100 guests, or dragging them around behind a skiff para-sailing. Even my good friend who is 100 ton master with his ASA instructing thing, all of 'em, when I watch them are in my opinion, pretty crappy boat handlers and problem solvers. I often wonder how they convinced themselves they where any good in the first place. Where does the confidence come from. I was as nervous as a knocked up Nun runn'n boats for 10 years before I felt worthy of my 6 pack. Now I'm going through the same thing as I move around 400 foot boats. It will be another 10 years before, even though I'm licensed, That I'll feel worthy and take full charge of my own tug and barge. I wish more of Today's captains had gotten some old school seamanship training and where honest with themselves about there ability's before these nautical disasters take place.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

Capt.aaron said:


> all of 'em, when I watch them are in my opinion, pretty crappy boat handlers and problem solvers.


Aaron unfortunately there are a lot of captains out there who think they're good seaman if they make it into the slip without ripping out dock boards.

As a commercial mariner with a lot of miles under your keel, what do you look for and what do you consider signs of good seamanship?


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

JimMcGee said:


> Aaron unfortunately there are a lot of captains out there who think they're good seaman if they make it into the slip without ripping out dock boards.
> 
> As a commercial mariner with a lot of miles under your keel, what do you look for and what do you consider signs of good seamanship?


Prudence, Calm, slow and graceful movement in tight quarters. Humility with a sense of humor. Confident but not complacent. Good line handling skills, absolutely no dependency on electrical gadget to tell them anything about where they are, how deep the water is or which way the wind is blow'n. The ability to use the prevailing conditions to their advantage. The ability to communicate in clear, short and precise sentences. The ability to lead through example and follow common sense, even if it comes from the least experienced of their crew. The ability to cuss eloquently enough to make a queen laugh and a nun blush. Someone who puts safety of the crew, the boater's around them and the vessel above and beyond every thing else, in that order. Some one who will never ask a crew to do something they can't, haven't or won't do them selves. The ability to make quick decisions correctly, and change with the conditions as they change. The ability to choose the right anchor and deploy it proper. All these thing's and much much more I have seen in great Seaman and strive to achieve as I grow and learn about the sea.


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## GrummanPilot (Oct 25, 2011)

aprilsails said:


> I find the OP's post beginning odd especially in reference to how "high tech" gizmos are making sailors take risks or make mistakes that they wouldn't have made if they did things the old fashioned way.


I don't think it's as much about taking risks as it is about lack of planning.

Before GPSs became popular, planning ahead was necessary. Now you can just shove off and follow the line on the screen.


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## flandria (Jul 31, 2012)

Coquina said:


> Commercial pilot here - it is by NO MEANS a settled fact that electronics are making flying safer. There is some evidence that we have passed the optimum point and are now having issues with pilots that cannot do their job when the electrons misbehave.


The same fully applies to all activities, including our sailing. I sail on Georgian Bay that has an east coast full of (hard, rocky!) shoals and a coastline that has hardly any landmarks to visually help you with a land fall. Yes, I do enjoy my chartplotter but I am always checking against my chart, lines of position, dead reckoning, because electronics can and do fail without warning (and I have a very early-generation hand held GPS for back-up). Now, if I was totally without my GPS, my learning curve for navigating these waters (especially approaching from the west on a lake crossing) would be very slow. Take away my radar and the degree of risk increases even more.

As a society we have become utterly reliant on electricity-based (never mind satellite based) aids in virtually every activity that we undertake - all in less than one century. It is small surprise that kids growing up in this "sterile" environment have an inadequate concept of what constitutes "self sufficiency" and, I, myself, get lulled into a false sense of security, I have to make an effort to guard against that, as well...


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## flandria (Jul 31, 2012)

gfh said:


> I was going to say something very similar. There's a cool little museum in Beach Haven called the New Jersey Maritime Museum that has a database of 7200 known shipwrecks off the NJ coast, the vast majority before GPS, the vast majority professionally crewed, and that's only for like 130 miles of shoreline. I guess the more important technological advance since the old days is weather forecasting, but still...
> 
> At least when a ship went down in the 19th century, there was no public forum for the inland dinghy sailor to endlessly pontificate on what the skipper did wrong.


Just a comment to give this perspective:

1.- Most of these wrecks are (probably) sailing SHIPS or commercial fishing vessels of some sort (read: no engine); (The famous Bluenose started life without an engine in the 1920s);
2.- Most of these wrecks are commercial vessels. This means, the vessel and crew are out in all weather, and in all seasons;
3.- Most of these wrecks pre-date modern communications, including forecasting of hurricanes and a "get out of the way" window;
4.- Most of these wrecks were wooden hulls (how well maintained, how old?) and sails and rigging far less resilient than our modern stuff;
5.- NOW you can start adding crew error as a factor


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