# Another noob- another raft of questions



## fschaefer4 (Sep 28, 2015)

I've been trolling the boards for a few months now and think I have a pretty good approach to getting into sailing. The people on this board have done it all when it comes to sailing. I'm so impressed.

I'm open to any input from people who've gone down this path before me.

Background info:
~45 yr old guy and his girlfriend
~From Austin, TX
~I used to work on fishing boats in AK (when I was 20-25)
~I'm handy. Can do anything to a house and a lot of things to motorcycles. (enough to mess them up sometimes)
~Have some $$ saved, but definitely not able to drop out of the workforce.
~Girlfriend is less experienced around water, but game for a change as well. She's a total trooper.

Approach:
Buy a $10K +/- live aboard. Get a job. Work on the boat, take lessons, crew whenever work/life permits, get to a point where I can crew racing as everyone says that's the best way to learn.

At $10K +/- I'll have a cheap place to live (slip fees), can learn a lot about boats and sell it after I've spent time around boats and have a better idea of what I want. I'm sure other expenses will add up, but that will be part of learning my way around.

Seems like 30' loa or less is cheaper to maintain, easy to learn on, easy to sell and move up when I have a better idea of what I want.

I like the idea of sailing PNW, especially Alaska, but what do I know? My dream trip is Galapagos on a motorcycle or sailboat...

Questions:
I'm on the wait list for a live aboard slip in Shilshole. Is it worth looking at other marinas? I mean, c'mon. It's right next to Golden Gardens. Am I missing something?

Is it worth using a boat broker for a $10K +/- boat?

I wouldn't be able to move until April 2016. Does buying a boat before then and making it up a few weekends make any sense? Are prices lower going into winter?

Would you get a boat surveyed if you couldn't attend the survey?

People can discuss this boat vs. that boat ad nauseam. I don't want to do that. But a couple of boat questions.
What the hell is an "arch" on a boat? Is it like davits off the back for hanging a dinghy?

My short list of things I'd like on the boat:
Bimini
Hot water (not necessarily a shower)
toilet or porta potty
shore power
5'9" of head room.
some electronics.
Any input on baseline necessities for a live aboard? (yes, that's a totally open ended question- sorry)

AND finally- props the the thread that said something along the lines of "if you want to sail, go sail."

I'm trying to get there.

Thanks in advance y'all!


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## amwbox (Aug 22, 2015)

I've lived aboard here in the PNW (and am originally from Alaska)...and basically the biggest liveaboard issue is condensation. You need proper ventilation (and heat and/or dehumidification) in order to not have everything be damp and drippy every morning for about 7 months of the year.

As for cruising here, you can make it all the way up the Alaskan panhandle with very little open ocean exposure by taking the Inside Passage. Just get good charts and tide tables. And be prepared to do some motoring. In a lot of places the tides are more like rapids lol.

Sailing northwards against the wind and current is pretty rough. Northern California clear up to the tip of Vancouver Island is rocky coastline with famously rough seas. Not the best for beginners. And the inlets generally involve bar crossings...especially the Columbia River. Which can also be famously nasty:Graveyard of the Pacific
Also, super cool video of the Coasties at the Columbia Bar: Here

I'm not trying to scare you away from the PNW, but its best to start somewhere sheltered in the Salish Sea or the Columbia River Gorge as a newbie rather than fight your way north up the coast if your planning on cruising over from Texas. Look into trucking the boat, if she's small enough. If the plan is to buy a boat that's already here, disregard the above. Just be aware of the amount of rain and clouds your in for. Surprises people. :wink



> I'm on the wait list for a live aboard slip in Shilshole. Is it worth looking at other marinas? I mean, c'mon. It's right next to Golden Gardens. Am I missing something?


Look at lots of marinas. Depends on your situation of course, but consider the smaller spots on the fringes of the metro as well. So much less activity at night. Better sleep for folks wanting to liveaboard.



> I wouldn't be able to move until April 2016. Does buying a boat before then and making it up a few weekends make any sense? Are prices lower going into winter?


Might be able to negotiate a better price in the winter...but you really don't need to haul and store your boat here, so people are less pumped to avoid winter storage fees.



> Would you get a boat surveyed if you couldn't attend the survey?


Nope. I'd be there, taking pictures, asking nonstop annoying questions, and generally being a pain in the ass. Ideally your going to be getting the sea trial done right then anyways.


> People can discuss this boat vs. that boat ad nauseam. I don't want to do that. But a couple of boat questions.
> What the hell is an "arch" on a boat? Is it like davits off the back for hanging a dinghy?












Basically its what it sounds like, and yea, you can hang your dinghy with the right hardware. Mostly people use them as mounts for radar, solar, wind generators, etc.

As for boats...entirely your own comfort level. I knew a guy that lived for 16 years on a tiny Pacific Seacraft Flicka...which greatly resembles a bathtub toy. Awesome, indestructible little boat. He sailed it all over the Pacific. Have no idea how he didn't lose his mind, though.


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## fschaefer4 (Sep 28, 2015)

I'm looking at buying a boat already in the PNW. Ideally is would already in Seattle as sailing it/trailering it seems like a huge chunk to bite off being so new to this. Seems like Puget Sound would be a great learning place where one can get as much exposure to open ocean or as much sheltered sailing as they wanted.

Good info on heat/dehumidifier for condensation. Makes all sorts of sense, both for personal comfort and well being of interior of the boat. I've seen some boats with heaters on board. 

Is shore power rated by how many amps are at your electrical service? For example each slip has a shore power plug in. Depending on slip or marina, each plug in would provide 50 amp service? And it's up to the boat owner to keep electrical draw lower than that?

Finally, any input on the Catalina 27' for a live aboard? Seems like there are more than a few of those out there for sale.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

If you get to live aboard Catalina 27 for more than a week you will quickly find out whether you and your girlfriend are meant to be together in life.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

I read the OP, but not the replies. 

I will offer you one hard and fast rule (that I have learned the hard way) about buying boats; it is cheaper to pay 3X for a boat in bristol condition, than it is to pay X for a fixer-upper. And by buying a boat in bristol condition, you and your GF can start living the dream sooner.

My observation is that if you hope to find a 30 foot with a bimini, hot water, MSD, shore power, 5'9" of head room, and "some electronics," with a $10K budget, you are going to see a lot of fixer-uppers. Also, any electronics that are more than 5 years old are most likely obsolete.

Good luck, and check in with us as you pursue the dream.


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## sailpower (Jun 28, 2008)

eherlihy said:


> Also, any electronics that are more than 5 years old are most likely obsolete.


Obsolete??

I've had ten year old electronics that worked just fine.

A gps is a gps. A new one will have more features but an old one that works will do the job.

I was on a MY recently that had it's original 1984 radar. It was big, bulky and had a ton of knobs but it worked!


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

sailpower said:


> Obsolete??
> 
> I've had ten year old electronics that worked just fine.
> 
> ...


Ya, I have a 9 year old chartplotter. I love it, but I doubt that I could sell it for more than $10. I'm not saying that it is worthless. It won't display AIS information though, so I am likely to toss it someday (or use as a backup)

What I AM saying is that no one (in their right mind) is should PAY for old equipment. Those whizzy-gizzy LORAN units make great doorstops. CRT Radar? VHF from 2000? Datamarine depth sounder? - puh-leez!


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## fschaefer4 (Sep 28, 2015)

eherlihy said:


> I read the OP, but not the replies.
> 
> I will offer you one hard and fast rule (that I have learned the hard way) about buying boats; it is cheaper to pay 3X for a boat in bristol condition, than it is to pay X for a fixer-upper. And by buying a boat in bristol condition, you and your GF can start living the dream sooner.
> 
> Good luck, and check in with us as you pursue the dream.


I agree with that rule. BUT what I'd like to do is get a year under my belt with A boat, not THE boat. That would give me a cheap(er) shot at learning the ropes and what I want in a real investment.

I could move to Seattle and rent an apartment and just go out on other people's boats, but buying a cheap live aboard seems like a good way to understand what I'll want when it comes time to spend real money. And by real money, I mean... awe hell, I don't even know yet.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

If you want the most cost effective use of your dollar to learn to sail I suggest that you join a sailing school/club in the area near where you work, while you continue to make money doing whatever it is that you do. 

For example, I live in the Boston area (some of the year), and I first joined the Boston Harbor Sailing Club, which was an ASA affiliate school. For less than the cost of my slip (never mind depreciation, maintenance, upgrades, winter storage, or insurance), I got to learn how to sail their dirty old boats, with a bunch of people that were near my level of experience (so nobody laughed at the dumb things that I did). Plus I could daysail any time I wanted, and take a boat out for a week long cruise, with my own crew, after I passed whatever course I was enrolled in. There are other schools like this in the Boston area, Boston Sailing Center is another example.

Now I see that you are in Austin, TX. You have Texas Sailing, NauticEd, Outbound Sailing, Austin Sailing, Austin Sailing Adventures, and Austin Sailboat Rentals right in your back yard... I would start by giving all of them a call.

DISCLAIMER: I am not affiliated with any of these organizations


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

One more thing, and I hate to burst anyone's bubble; I would forget about your dream of going to the Galapagos on a motorcycle, and focus instead on learning how to sail.:boat :



fschaefer4 said:


> My dream trip is Galapagos on a motorcycle or sailboat...


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## azguy (Jul 17, 2012)

fschaefer4 said:


> ........any input on the Catalina 27' for a live aboard?


Clearly you've never been on a C27 or a C30, seriously, while many people "claim" to live on those, that's not living. It's existing. :eek

$10k isn't even close and you need at LEAST 35/36 ft.


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## fschaefer4 (Sep 28, 2015)

azguy said:


> Clearly you've never been on a C27 or a C30, seriously, while many people "claim" to live on those, that's not living. It's existing. :eek
> 
> $10k isn't even close and you need at LEAST 35/36 ft.


Yeah, I'm getting that idea. I'm marking that off my list of potentials.


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## fschaefer4 (Sep 28, 2015)

eherlihy said:


> One more thing, and I hate to burst anyone's bubble; I would forget about your dream of going to the Galapagos on a motorcycle, and focus instead on learning how to sail.:boat :


ha. yeah, I know I can't make it there on a motorcycle. But I can get close and close the gap on a boat.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

azguy said:


> Clearly you've never been on a C27 or a C30, seriously, while many people "claim" to live on those, that's not living. It's existing. :eek
> 
> $10k isn't even close and you need at LEAST 35/36 ft.


I don't know biggest thing with smaller boats is headroom and storage. I almost bought (well actually bought it but the seller sold it to a higher bidder the next day) an Ericson 27 and I have to say I could have certainly lived aboard it. It has been a while since being on a Catalina 27 but have been on several Catalina 30's and plenty of room to live aboard. Now I would not want to live aboard them with more than a significant other, they would work fine for someone looking for a minimalist life style. As long as you are looking at it like one of the tiny houses everyone is raving about now a days. My 33 is fine for me alone but is short on storage and would not want to have anyone else living with me on it, mostly due to storage. So it can really depend on the boat, some less than 30 footers have way more storage than many 35-36 footers.


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## fschaefer4 (Sep 28, 2015)

miatapaul said:


> ...some less than 30 footers have way more storage than many 35-36 footers.


Ok, now there's a good tidbit of info.

So which 30'-ish boats would you guys say have more room than bigger boats?


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

fschaefer4 said:


> Ok, now there's a good tidbit of info.
> 
> So which 30'-ish boats would you guys say have more room than bigger boats?


Well the Flicka has a ton of storage, but is a 20 foot boat, same with a Bristol Channel cutter in mid 20 foot range, and the Westsail 32 has a lot of storage. Thing is many of the boats that have lots of storage will have rather sluggish performance. But that is not all that bad, as if you have lots of crap on the boat (relative to a weekender/day sailor) you will be heavier anyway. But I wanted something that had pretty good performance in our locally low wind environment, so I went with more of a racer/cruiser rather than a more cruising oriented boat with more storage and comfort. I will pay for it in the lack of storage, but will have more fun once I can actually get out and sail it, or at least that is the plan.


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## amwbox (Aug 22, 2015)

fschaefer4 said:


> Ok, now there's a good tidbit of info.
> 
> So which 30'-ish boats would you guys say have more room than bigger boats?


Honestly, for the sake of interior volume look at some hunters. A little more upscale, maybe Island Packet..they tend to be beamy and have lots of storage. Also, when living with someone else on the boat, try to find something that has a bulkhead and door dividing the space. Psychologically, even a small measure of privacy is irreplaceable sometimes. Being able to retreat to the v berth and close the door behind you and let each other cool down...this isn't possible on an open plan boat. You are _going_ to be in each other's grills all the time and it _going_ to make you crazy.

This is where a 40 or 50 foot boat starts to seem like a nice idea. People just need space sometimes.

As for above comments about "living" as opposed to "existing" on a smaller boat. Gross generalizations. Its entirely a matter of personal tolerances. Some people need to surround themselves with a nest made of copious amounts of stuff packed into as large a volume as possible. And some others are true minimalists who require only enough room to stretch out and sleep and read a good book, who are ready to upend the whole lives with 20 minutes notice and a single bag.

Consider making a list of the items you simply are not willing to live without...and then figure out what size boat will be required to contain them...when added to that other person's stuff. I lived on a 28 footer for quite a while, half the time with a woman. (who, in the final analysis, decided she REQUIRED a proper bathroom, rather than a tiny enclosed head where you shower trying to trip over the toilet.) Worked fine for me, though. Definitely check out the marina's shower situation.

Just saying.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

A 30 footer is a bit tight for those new to living aboard, but certainly doable.
I think if it was me, I'd save a bit more and try to find a good deal on a cruising boat in one of those areas where there are a good number of "broken dream" boats (St. Martin, Trinidad, Honolulu, for instance. Then you'd at least begin your liveaboard experience with a bit of fun sailing as you move the boat to it's new home. 
You might require a bit of help to do this, but there are plenty of experienced sailors on here who would jump at the chance to accompany you, for expenses only I'm sure.
You'd certainly get a lot more boat for the buck, if you chose wisely. For instance, but I'm not saying these are good boats for you, only giving an idea of what could be found; "Oct 16 40'Endeavour $15000 (st.thomas)" " Oct 17 Willard 8T Cutter $7500 (STT) "
Good luck.


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## fschaefer4 (Sep 28, 2015)

capta said:


> A 30 footer is a bit tight for those new to living aboard, but certainly doable.
> I think if it was me, I'd save a bit more and try to find a good deal on a cruising boat in one of those areas where there are a good number of "broken dream" boats (St. Martin, Trinidad, Honolulu,
> 
> "Oct 16 40'Endeavour $15000 (st.thomas)" " Oct 17 Willard 8T Cutter $7500 (STT) "
> Good luck.


I LOVE this idea and think it would be fairly easy to pull off if planned correctly. Expect to go to one of those locations and see things in person instead of from afar. Could plan a month or so on the cheap and then take care of it in one fell swoop. I'll take your word that it would be easy to find someone to help sail it back.

Still, I'd like to have an idea of what I really want to own. Am looking into ASA sailing lessons in Austin (as per eherlihy's suggestion). The coast is 3 hours from here, so can make it down once a month to crew for people. Then I'll have a better idea of what I want when I make the jump.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

fschaefer4 said:


> Still, I'd like to have an idea of what I really want to own.


Unfortunately, the ONLY way I know of to get any idea of what you'd really like to own, is to sail on a wide variety of boats, and that takes time.
I usually advise those with little experience to consider the livability of whatever boat you are looking at. After all, first and foremost, it is going to be your home. Sailing ability and aesthetics come in a long way down the list below a comfortable home, IMO.
But there are always going to be surprises. For instance, many lovely double enders hobby horse like crazy, both at anchor and underway. This can be a very uncomfortable motion.
Many boats will sail on their anchor or others will roll horribly in some conditions, at anchor. Even though cat owners swear up and down that their boats are more stable than a monohull, a lot of cats have a very jerky motion at anchor and underway, which I find MUCH more uncomfortable than a long, slow roll or the pounding to weather of our boat.
There is no perfect boat. Every one is a compromise.
As for finding someone to help you move a boat, perhaps I'm wrong. Ask on here and see what kind of response you get.


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## fschaefer4 (Sep 28, 2015)

Another specific question.

In Austin, I can take ASA classes. ASA 101-106.

But classes are in Lake Travis.

Is it better to take these classes in an actual ocean instead of in a land locked lake?


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## danvon (Dec 10, 2012)

You can certainly learn basic sailing on a lake. if you want to learn coastal navigation, dealing with tides/current etc., then you are better off on salt water. If you are seriously thinking about moving to Seattle, there are a couple of rental clubs/sailing schools here that can teach you and let you check out a number of different boats. You can see what you like and what works for you in the local conditions. That's probably much cheaper in the long run than buying the "wrong" boat. Also, if you know a little bit of sailing you would likely have no trouble finding boats here to crew on. 

Sailing a boat here from anywhere else could be a big undertaking. Personally I might sail it up here on a truck.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Take the class to get the basics, the certifications, and learn boat handling on Lake Travis. Then continue to seek out opportunities to sail on the ocean with the certifications in hand. Lake sailing is a great way to learn.


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## sirtang (Mar 15, 2015)

Lake Travis would be fine, when I took Intro to Sailing and Basic Keelboat we only ventured about a mile N/S and a mile E/W.
Almost all of your courses would be tacking back and forth, learning to jibe, learning to reef, shaking reefs, learning to anchor, learning to dock...so many times.

There is really no reason to not jump in a do that for 6 months at least if you can join a kind of sailing club where they rent you the daysailer for something like $1500/year. Then you have all of the basic skills and experience to do the coastal navigation classes and basic cruising. I'm a US Sailing kind of guy instead of an ASA guy so the courses are different but the same type of progression.

The other thing to think about is taking a bareboat cruising class, there they teach you all that is required (basic level) for chartering a boat where you are the skipper. You would likely do this in the caribbean during the winter for a week or two. They go through all sorts of procedures like clearing in to port, provisioning the galley and the boat for a short voyage, diesel maintenance (sometimes), and all sorts of other stuff. Check out the place I go to for some context of what you could get (soundsailing.com)

If your dream is PNW, you could certainly jump in but one man's escape is another man's dream! The Gulf really does have a lot to offer, single high/low tides daily and lots of ports and anchorages from Texas to Florida. Check out activecaptain and explore what others say. 

Personally after my first 6 months sailing I would be more comfortable sailing my Ensign for another few months before I had enough experience to really get the benefit out of the cruising course. Sailing in different conditions is really valuable, from looking at different wind directions and strengths to different tide encounters there really is a lot to process and things get more second nature every time. After about 100 practical hours (that works out to about 35 3 hours sessions which is what I average), I think I'll be ready for that next step. 

My plan is more like a 10 year plan to start checking out, but thats mostly because of my kids age and all of that. Whatever you decide, best of luck


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## jwing (Jun 20, 2013)

In case you missed this part of azguy's post, I'll repeat it:



azguy said:


> ...
> 
> $10k isn't even close and you need at LEAST 35/36 ft.


Think of it this way: Would you consider living in a house that you could buy for $10K? Maybe that's a bad analogy...how about a $10K recreational vehicle? Heck, I can't even find a decent used car for $10K. Then add sails, rigging, a power generation and storage system, a domestic water storage and pumping system, a self-contained sewage storage and disposal system. Then cram it all onto on a bobbing, rolling platform in saltwater. Now, does buying a home that does all that for $10K sound like a reasonable endeavor?

I'm all for buying a low-cost boat for learning how to sail, but I would not want to live in a low-cost boat, nor would I want to use my home to learn how to sail. But that's me; maybe it will work for you.


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## fschaefer4 (Sep 28, 2015)

@sirtang- that's some good info right there. Great approach.

Thanks for the input everyone. I'm listening to y'all.

We just signed up for ASA Keelboat 101 with Austin Yacht Club and got out copies of the text book for the course. I carry that darn book with me everywhere and read a little hear and there whenever work permits. I'll probably read the thing 2 or 3 times by the time I get to the class.

The class is December 12 and 13 on Lake Travis.

While at AYC, we met a gentleman who gave us a couple names of people who like to take out noobies. Also, my girlfriend signed us up in a sailing meetup, so we're looking forward to checking that out too.

In short, I hear you guys loud and clear. Learn and sail as much as possible before I even worry about getting a boat. It's easy to dream and put the cart before the horse.

I'll check back here and let everyone know how it goes.

I'll just put this out there hoping I can make it happen in the future. Looking at the ASA certified sailing schools around the world, it would be great to get advanced certifications somewhere like Greece or the Bahamas.

Thanks again All!
Frank


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## fschaefer4 (Sep 28, 2015)

Well it's been a while, but sailing is still a growing thread in my life.

I took everyones advice and didn't buy a boat. Decided to get experience on as many boats as possible.

My girlfriend and I took ASA 101 on Lake Travis here in Austin, TX through Austin Yacht Club. Since then, we've been doing a lot of sailing with a friend on his Albin Ballad 30'. I don't have a lot of points of reference, but seems like a sweet boat. Definitely solid and fast. (who am I kidding, I'd probably enjoy anything as long as it moved. I approach sailing like motorcycles- very little discrimination. 2 wheels and a motor? sounds cool.)

We joined Texas Sailing so we can get some experience on a few different boats. We booked their Bene 22' for our first outing. Ironically, I was so excited to get out on the lake, I reserved the boat a week early even though the forecast was 80% rain chance. I mean hell, it's sailing. Seems like a little rain wouldn't hurt. When we showed up to take the boat out, 0% chance of rain and 0 wind... We took it out anyways figuring we could practice docking. For the record, Texas Sailing seems very helpful and a pretty solid-all-the-way-around kind of place. We found some wind, went swimming and had a successful first outing. We'll probably take it out a couple more times and move up to their Catalina or one of the other Benes. 

I definitely like that they teach you docking. That seems like a big hurtle to me.

I figure after we get a little experience on their boats, we can start chartering out of Houston to get sea legs on the weekends.

Thanks again for all the input. This is a great place to learn a lot.


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