# Do you use your spinnaker?



## Cruiser2B (Jan 6, 2011)

I have been told my boat does not sail well in light winds(Alberg 30). I have the opporunity to buy a spinnaker made for my boat(new) for what seems as a good price. I am located in the lower chesapeake and have been told that wind is sometimes hard to find during the summer. 
I guess what I am asking is if this is a good desicion? Is there another sail that is easier to fly and move my boat, btw I have never used a spinnaker on any boat. I know that my boat is setup for one. It have a halyard and a spinnaker pole on deck. 
I am gonna do my hardest to make this boat sail in all conditions and if a spinnaker would help it go in light air then I will buy it. Just wondering what you all use.

Thanks


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## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

Sounds like if you want to make it go in all conditions then you'll need the spinnaker.


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## thehardaground (Jan 19, 2011)

A spinnaker won;t make ir go in light air, but it will make it go _better_ downwind in light air.


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## JaredC (Dec 4, 2010)

Keep in mind that there is more to the rigging than a halyard and a pole... You will want to check all of it thoroughly, the loads on spin gear can get pretty serious.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Flying a spinnaker is a rewarding experience when it goes right, and can be downright terrifying if it doesn't. The key is to learn in the correctly moderate conditions (neither too light nor too heavy), perfect your dousing techniques as a priority to get yourself out of trouble.

But given a long deep run I'd rather run a spinn than run wing on wing any day.You can comfortable run deeper without hassle and with less worry of an accidental gyble..

I would suggest that once you've sorted things out you'll use it enough to make it worthwhile. As has been suggested though, there's a fair bit of hardware and rigging involved if the boat is not already so equipped.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

For ease of handling, a gennaker may be more appropriate. A flatter cut gennaker can point higher than a spinnaker, as much as 60 degree off the wind. It can also be used on a broad reach.


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## FoolishMuse (Oct 12, 2006)

Until you fly a spinnaker you are not really sailing. Go get it and start having fun.

For some strange reason people seem to be afraid of them. You don't have to use it in a gale like some do, but it is a lot better than white sails in normal conditions.


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## carl762 (Jan 11, 2010)

Haven't tried mine yet. Don't feel I'm ready. This year, I'll sail with the jib and genoa.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

FoolishMuse said:


> Until you fly a spinnaker you are not really sailing. Go get it and start having fun.
> 
> For some strange reason people seem to be afraid of them. You don't have to use it in a gale like some do, but it is a lot better than white sails in normal conditions.


EXACTLY what I was going to post. Nothing to add.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

It is quieter than running the engine.


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

Yes, I use all my sails.


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## mgiguere (May 22, 2004)

Absolutely...especially on the Chesapeake Bay. Since the Bay runs north and south and is relatively narrow, we use the spinnaker often enough on our 1967 S&S Apache 37 sloop. In light air, the chute does help catch more air if you are on more of a beam reach. I can almost go upwind (apparent) with my chute up and have done so going up the West River in light air. Of course, if the wind is strong (over 7-8 knots on the beam), then it's not really possible. 

Of course, beyond a spinnaker halyard, you'll also need good lines for the sheet and guy...obviously you know the difference: guy's have (the) pole(s) :>)


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

Yes but going UP is one thing 

Coming down is quite another and were the adventure begins


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

Cruiser2B said:


> ...I am gonna do my hardest to make this boat sail in all conditions and if a spinnaker would help it go in light air then I will buy it. Just wondering what you all use.


 If that's your attitude, absolutely go with a spinnaker. The spinnaker's role is not just a light air sail....

- in 6 knots true wind, when closehauled you may move smartly with a genoa, but you will completely die as the wind moves aft the beam. A spinnaker will keep you moving a few knots, permitting sailing through about 180 degrees of apparent wind angle....

- in 10 knots true wind, you will blast upwind, but find your speed drops sharply to a few knots as the wind moves aft of beam. With a spinnaker you can also sail smartly off the wind perhaps doubling your speed through 180 degrees of apparent wind.

A spinnaker can double your time spent sailing during the summer. I always take the sail when cruising, its a shame most non-racers dont' count the sail as a cruising sail.

The first class way to go is to upgrade to a big asymmetric, which requires mounting a bowsprit. The gear would run $3-4000 for a 30' but you end up with an easy to use but powerful sail. That Catalina is equipping many of their new models with bowsprits means this doctrine is growing beyond the racing fraternity.

A symmetric is also an effective solution but more demanding to set and use. My opinion is to practice for a while on a smaller keel boat...Running the sheets and guys when you want to use the sail is a pain, I would usually leave mine in place and just coil up the ends, and hang the sheets off the stern rail.

A cruising chute is better than nothing, but wont have the range or power of either of the above.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Some cut of an asym spinnaker is probably the way to go. A full spinnaker takes a lot of hands to fly, particularly to fly safely in some conditions. A asym with a dousing sock can easily be flown by two people. The question is which cut: full, gennaker, drifter, blooper, code zero......

A good sailmaker will know your boat and after describing what you want it to do, will give you the best advice. What works on mine is not necessarily best for yours.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

*I'm a cruiser, not a racer.*

I had two lessons on how to use one. After my turn at the helm (the next guy was at the tiller) we almost broached. Lesson over.

I also raced for a season in the harbor, but never did get the hang of rigging the damn thing. One evening a squall line passed through during a race. We saw it coming, and doused the spinaker AND the jib. Several of the other boats did not. One of which broached and (because you had to remove the water tight doors to stow the friggin' pole) sank!

When I'm on a boat, I am trying to relax. I don't need, or want the hassle... If there is that little wind, I'll start the motor.

Although an asymmetrical spinaker looks intriguing....


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

Yes, we use them all. Hard to imagine sailing downwind without one especially in wind > 15kts.


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## Cruiser2B (Jan 6, 2011)

thanks for all the input. I am still considering it. but for the money it might be hard to turn down and its new. I am still in the learning stages of the new to me boat. All of my experience prior was a sprit rigged sharpie and a 16ft oday daysailor. I am learning all these terms like gennaker, drifter...All I know is I would like to only use the engine to get me in and out of the marina. I know for sure I don't want to be stuck in the middle of the bay with a boat that won't move either. I was able to sail about 3.5-4 kts a week ago with 8-10 kts or so from the NE with mainsail and 110genoa. I did 4.5-5 in higher gusts. keep the input and ideas coming


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## mgmhead (Jan 14, 2007)

Buy the spin and get a sock for it too. That makes setting and dousing the sail so much easier. I only fly mine four or five times a season but when the wind is light on the Chesapeake it's much better than turning on the engine. I'm glad to have a spinnaker and would miss it if I didn't Go for it.


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## rikhall (Feb 7, 2008)

We don't have one (yet) on the IC34, had one on the T22 and two on the T28. Loved them!

My only advice:

NEVER put a stopper knot at the end of the sheet or the guy.

Have fun with it.

Rik


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

Get a symmetrical or asymmetrical spinnaker. Your boat and the Chesapeake will love it. Learn how to use it and you are golden.
I've had some great cruises on a friends boat near Annapolis where the spin was the best sail we could use, sometimes by itself.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

While I certainly echo Caleb's sentiments, I would not advocate flying a spinnaker alone unless you've got a sock setup.

Dousing a chute in a suddenly rising breeze with no main to hide it behind can really make life interesting.....


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

Faster said:


> While I certainly echo Caleb's sentiments, I would not advocate flying a spinnaker alone unless you've got a sock setup.
> 
> Dousing a chute in a suddenly rising breeze with no main to hide it behind can really make life interesting.....


Amen.


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## Mark F (Mar 7, 2006)

Hi Cruiser2b,

Another option is to set an asymmetrical spinnaker on a sprit with a furler. With the furled asymmetrical you have the sail available whenever you want it and it is unfurled/furled from the cockpit.


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## CapnA (Jan 2, 2010)

We sail on the upper Chesapeake and use our asymmetrical spinnaker a fair amount. As a previous poster mentioned, the north/south alignment of the bay with light summer winds make it ideal for using the sail in the prevailing conditions.

I would recommend that you get an asymmetrical spinnaker/gennaker rather than a symmetrical sail. They are easy to learn with. A sock helps when short handed, but ultimately really can be almost as much work. I saw some posters mentioned a sprit for use with an asymmetrical. You really don't need one, although it might give you more speed by projecting the sail forward. I imagine that it would also affect your PHRF rating if you have one. 

Go to Bacon's in Annapolis and see if you can find a cheap used sail to learn with. That way you won't worry so much about hurting it while you learn.


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## Hudsonian (Apr 3, 2008)

The loads on the sheet and particularly the guy are quite significant. Look at the Harken equipment specifier page to get a sense of the strength needed in the turning blocks. Although you may wish to go with a less expensive alternative (e.g., Garhauer), this not an application for blocks from Home Depot. 
Similarly the guy -- the line that you use to trim the outboard end of the spinnaker pole -- should be low stretch and light weight. The length of the guy between the pole end and the winch will be over 40' when you're on a reach. Given the length of the line avoiding stretch is important. Otherwise the pole that you trimmed perfectly in 8 Kn of wind may well smack the forestay when the guy stretches when you get a puff of 12 Kn. On my 30' slop we use low stretch 5/16" sheets which provide the necessary stretch resistance while being light enough to avoid weighting down the clew of spinnaker in light air.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

That would be a yes.


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## FishSticks (Nov 16, 2007)

Since you are sailing in an area which, in the summer is (1) defiicient in wind and (2) excessively hot, I would say get that spinnaker if for no other reason than it will cast more shade.


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## nolatom (Jun 29, 2005)

I echo all the above, but if you are looking at a sym and already have the pole and topping lift set up, go for the sym if you have enough crew (2 in light air, 3 or more in moderate) to set and douse it. 

Why sym? 

It will run all the way down to dead downwind, while the assym will collapse below a medium broad reach. On a log 'cruising' run, the former will save you lots of jibes, while the assym won't, since you can't sail low enough to avoid most of the jibes.

I don't think the assym is all that much easier to handle. I'd rather deal with the pole than the retractable bowsprit.

Jibing the assym is actually more of a pain, if your helmsman rounds up too fast after jibing (happens often) and the sail ends up inside the headstay before you can pull it around. The sym, with the pole, usually stays forward of the headstay.

You don't have a "tack line" on a sym, which can be a hand-burner if you have to ease it under pressure (which please don't, but it happens sometimes). Easing the guy on a sym is usually easier on the hands during a douse

Your visibilty ahead is better, you can see "under" the sym, not so with the assym.

Now, it won't beam-reach as well as the assym, but that's what your genny is for anyhow.

Maybe I'm just old-school, and prejudiced. But the days you want a spinny cruising tend to be the ones where you're deeper than a broad reach. So you need the sym. Then you're making 3-4 knots in light air instead of 2, so your engine is off and you're not breathing its exhaust all day.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

FoolishMuse said:


> Until you fly a spinnaker you are not really sailing. Go get it and start having fun.
> 
> For some strange reason people seem to be afraid of them. You don't have to use it in a gale like some do, but it is a lot better than white sails in normal conditions.


+1000!

Practice with it in very light air until you feel comfortable. There are symmetrical and asymmetrical spinnakers. Your boat is proabably rigged for symmetric, with a pole, blocks for guys and all that jazz. You can fly an asymmetric without all of that jazz. Sometimes referred to as a "cruising chute".

I'm in the Chessie, same as you and that's what I did. Fear not the sail, fly it!


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## sailtobike (Oct 26, 2010)

*Absolutely!*

I learned to sail in Oklahoma where the winds were always screaming. Rarely a bad wind day. The I moved to the Cheasapeake and discovered sailing in low to dead wind days. So what does one do on those days? Fly spinnaker! You can entertain yourself for hours and torture your crew on what we be an otherwise dead boring day.

Go for it.

Sunfishlee


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I live in the middle Chesapeake Bay area and use my spinnaker a lot. The summers are pretty light around here and because of the prevailing summer winds and the orientation of the Bay and many of its tributaries, you will spend a lot of time deep reaching and running. Having spent a lot of time sailing on Alberg 30's and on race courses with them, I would suggest that these are not great light air boats, but the one thing that the Alberg 30 has in its favor is that they carry very large spinnakers and as soon as the winds get above 5-6 knots they can sail at pretty deep angles, allowing them to make surprisingly good VMG's. Unlike more modern designs, they don't benefit much from sailing 'hot angles' and so an asymmetrical chute is a poor choice for these boats. 

On my boat I only use symmetrical chutes because I typically fly my chute single-handed. It is far easier to have a wrap with an assym and without crew, it is very hard, if not imposible to clear a bad wrap. That said, I would not try to learn to fly chutes single-handed. 

I also strongly discourage against getting a sock for the chute if you will be short-handed. It is too easy to have a bad launch with a sock and short-handed you do not have the crew to deal with too bad a mess. I typically do my raise and and drop behind the main, doing an old-fashioned 'flag drop' under the boom and into the companionway. A good harness and jacklines are a must. 

Jeff


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## neoxaero (Feb 18, 2010)

Get the Spinnaker - Its great in light air.

Not to mention you can always go spinnaker sailing when you're anchored - Its a BLAST
I picked up a worn out spinnaker from a buddy's J29 to use just for this purpose

See a video of this activity here
YouTube - Dave Spinnaker Sailing


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

Jeff_H said:


> ....I typically do my raise and and drop behind the main, doing an old-fashioned 'flag drop' under the boom and into the companionway. A good harness and jacklines are a must.
> 
> Jeff


An engaged auto-pilot too...


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

And as Sailing fool very rightly points out, a good autopilot makes single-handed symmetrical chute jibing way easier. 

Jeff


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

*Solo spin?*



Faster said:


> While I certainly echo Caleb's sentiments, I would not advocate flying a spinnaker alone unless you've got a sock setup.
> 
> Dousing a chute in a suddenly rising breeze with no main to hide it behind can really make life interesting.....


Both Faster and JackDale are correct that using only the spin (without a main to hide it behind) is a potential recipe for disaster if you run out of water. In this configuration you can only sail down wind and you need the main to ease in lowering or raising the spin.
It is fine for someone like Jeff_H to use his spin while soloing. He has the confidence and experience to do so. I'm not ready for flying the spin while solo and would not suggest trying this to anyone trying to learn the in's and out's of spinnaker sailing.
On a sail last fall we raised the spin shortly after passing through Knapp's Narrows and used it all the way to the South River, then into Harness creek and right into the little gunk hole where the spin came down. Some boats that were anchored there watched us and clapped as they saw the sail come safely down. Of course there were 5 of us, each capable sailors in our own rights and we made it look easy. We only started up the engine to be able to back down on the anchor.

You would be surprised how cheap a used spin might cost. See the listings at Minnies: SPINNAKERS - ALL SIZES
Does Bacon's in Annapolis also sell used sails?


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## rikhall (Feb 7, 2008)

CalebD said:


> Does Bacon's in Annapolis also sell used sails?


Yes

Rik


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

nolatom said:


> .....the assym will collapse below a medium broad reach.


Not always true. That will depend on the cut, the weight and wind speed.



> I don't think the assym is all that much easier to handle. I'd rather deal with the pole than the retractable bowsprit.


A bowsprit isn't required. You can use everything from an ATN tacker with a tack line to the bow all the way to a snatch block running an adjustable tack line back to the cockpit. Lots of possibilities to keep it much simpler than a symmetrical spinnaker.



> Jibing the assym is actually more of a pain, if your helmsman rounds up too fast after jibing (happens often) and the sail ends up inside the headstay before you can pull it around. The sym, with the pole, usually stays forward of the headstay.


True. A furler for the asym is an option. Maybe I'm wrong, but needing to jibe any kind of spinnaker often is usually a deal breaker if you're cruising.



> You don't have a "tack line" on a sym, which can be a hand-burner if you have to ease it under pressure (which please don't, but it happens sometimes). Easing the guy on a sym is usually easier on the hands during a douse


When dousing with a sock, you can ease the sheet while dousing and leave the tack or blow the tack completely first.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Looks like a yes on my part too! This is with out a sprit mind you. I do have a full crew on board when this pic was taken, hence no sock. I so use a sock when it is spouse and I alone. no sock racing with crew. We also are playing with poling the tack of the spin out to get better down wind angles too. Works reasonably well, altho with no experience using a symetric this way, I can not really say which is better.

This chute for me is about 590#, design spec is a 740 Sym. Built a bit small initially to make sure we knew how to handle the spin, better to be a bit small was my idea than too big initially. Hopefully I will get one either 695 or 725 or there abouts, depending if I want to stay with a PHRF code 5, ie 695# or take the 3sec hit with a code 6 or 725#. I will probably go with an AS again too. We can point to with in 60* when we pull this sucker in, tighten the tack to the bow..........

Marty


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

I use an asym tied to a metal loop at the top of our anchor roller. Works great. No sprit required.

I have flown it "simulated solo" with DavidPM standing by if needed. I could do it (with a sock).

Regards,
Brad


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Bene505 said:


> I use an asym tied to a metal loop at the top of our anchor roller. Works great. No sprit required.


Bene, is that a metal loop that is independently anchored to the boat? Most bow rollers themselves are not engineered to take the sideloads of an asym. Mine is not, yours might be. I can't say. Some get away with it in very light winds, until they push just a tad too far and need a few boat units to fix it.

But you are right, no sprit required, just a tack point on the bow.


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## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

Minnewaska said:


> Bene, is that a metal loop that is independently anchored to the boat? Most bow rollers themselves are not engineered to take the sideloads of an asym. Mine is not, yours might be. I can't say. Some get away with it in very light winds, until they push just a tad too far and need a few boat units to fix it.
> 
> But you are right, no sprit required, just a tack point on the bow.


The P.O. of my boat tacked the asym to the anchor retaining loop on the bow roller and got away with it, but it worried me.

I use a stainless steel caribiner to fix a snatch block to the stem fitting below the tang for the forestay. My assumption is, if thats strong enough for the jib loads, it ought to be strong enough for the loads of the light air asym.


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

Minnewaska said:


> Bene, is that a metal loop that is independently anchored to the boat? Most bow rollers themselves are not engineered to take the sideloads of an asym. Mine is not, yours might be. I can't say. Some get away with it in very light winds, until they push just a tad too far and need a few boat units to fix it.
> 
> But you are right, no sprit required, just a tack point on the bow.


Thanks Minne, very good thought.

Our bow rollers are really beefy. (The side loads from the the anchor when we are in a blow and tacking-at-anchor are probably more anyway.) But it's comments like that, that make me glad I'm on this forum.

Regards,
Brad


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## Cruiser2B (Jan 6, 2011)

thank you for the input. I would definetly have to rig the control lines. I hope to have the spinnaker in a few weeks.

Why are the Forespar whisker pole so expensive? I understand the loads involved but while looking at spinnaker setups I cam across whisker poles and found the are almost $1k for my 30ft boat  I understand its for a boat therefore= more money but really what techology is in this equipment that I cannot see that warrants that type of price?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

You don't need a pole either with an asym.


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## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

Cruiser2B said:


> thank you for the input. I would definetly have to rig the control lines. I hope to have the spinnaker in a few weeks.
> 
> Why are the Forespar whisker pole so expensive? I understand the loads involved but while looking at spinnaker setups I cam across whisker poles and found the are almost $1k for my 30ft boat  I understand its for a boat therefore= more money but really what techology is in this equipment that I cannot see that warrants that type of price?


And why aren't there any used ones available? There are enough boats totaled by storms every couple of years, it seems like some of them would have salvagable whisker poles.

For a cruising equipped boat a whisker pole, offers the ability to sail a deeper angle than an Asym. I'd like to have a whisker pole to go along with the Asym to have more options depending on conditions.


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## Waltthesalt (Sep 22, 2009)

I'd go for a cruising spinaker. Unless you have several experienced crew you can have a difficult time raising , lowering andtrimmig it. Go sailing with someone who sets one to see what's involved. You also need the sheets, pole, pole guys, turning blocks for the sheets, mast and deck blocks for the guys... as well as places to make up the lines so people can tend them. In light wind going down wind there's nothing to speed you up becase boat speed is subtracting wind speed. What you want to do is to broad reach and "tack downwind". There a cruising or reaching spinnaker will be as good as or superior to a parachute spinnaker. If you must have a regular spinnaker can find spinakers at the used sails places on line. Bacons will give you the info how to measure. So why are there spinnakers there? Racig boats change them out and curisers are shiftig over to cruising chutes. You can find some used cruising spinnakers but they're harder to find this time year. The fall is the best.


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## Cruiser2B (Jan 6, 2011)

Waltthesalt said:


> I'd go for a cruising spinaker. Unless you have several experienced crew you can have a difficult time raising , lowering andtrimmig it. Go sailing with someone who sets one to see what's involved. You also need the sheets, pole, pole guys, turning blocks for the sheets, mast and deck blocks for the guys... as well as places to make up the lines so people can tend them. In light wind going down wind there's nothing to speed you up becase boat speed is subtracting wind speed. What you want to do is to broad reach and "tack downwind". There a cruising or reaching spinnaker will be as good as or superior to a parachute spinnaker. If you must have a regular spinnaker can find spinakers at the used sails places on line. Bacons will give you the info how to measure. So why are there spinnakers there? Racig boats change them out and curisers are shiftig over to cruising chutes. You can find some used cruising spinnakers but they're harder to find this time year. The fall is the best.


I have the spinnaker pole and some snatch blocks I could use for the sheets. My boat has a track on the front of the mast for the pole and a spinnaker halyard. I know there will be some additional rigging involved but not too much. I can pick up a new sym spinnaker specically for my boat very reasonable. That is why I am thinking of getting it. I used to sail in the north east(Cape Cod) and never had a shortage of wind especially in the afternoons, but I here the Chesapeake is rather calm July and August....I have a 150 Genoa that should help if I can't get the hang of the spinnaker....All i know it that I wont be tied to the dock and I wont be burning fuel...so what ever I need to do I will....Within a reasonable budget.

Thanks for everyones input


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

If one uses a whisker pole to pole out either the tack or clew for that matter on an ASpin, you will bend the pole some. For a 30' boat, you can pickup a 12' alum spin pole for about $600-700 that WILL NOT bend under the stress of a spin in winds above7-8 knots. Even 3-4 knots a WP at your J length will bend some, if you have a 10-16 WP as I have for my 30' boat. A WP does work better when wing on wing with a 155. But for a spin, get an actual spin pole, as they are bigger and stronger. 

We used our AS today with a pole on the tack to the opposite side of the main, talk about sweet. There were at minimum 3-4 others I saw today doing the same thing. Most boats were using sym spins, but a few of us were using AS's poled out, worked quite well. I was the smallest, along with an older custom RP65 and a newer potential sprit style boat. 

Sorry, did not get pics, as my camera had a dead battery, and did not realize the chargable battery was toast before getting on the boat, otherwise, I would have charged it last night. Along with the 10-20 knot winds did not show......grrrrrr...... only 2-8 knot winds, with three 180 wind shifts........not a fun day! And Neptune got a winch handle, first of those we've lost overboard!

Marty


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

Cruiser2B: We have a conventional spinnaker and a gennaker. With just 2 of us in the boat, we found a gennaker to more user-friendly than a regular spinnaker. As Jackdale indicated, the gennaker is more versatile, too. 

Our gennaker came with a conventional sock, which we eventually replaced with an ATN funnel-like device for less hassle when dousing it. We do see a noticeable increase in boat speed in light air but if the wind picks up we'll start thinking about switching back to the regular genoa at 10-12 kts. Going downwind, we'll usually drop the main to keep the gennaker flying.

Perhaps we've gotten conservative in our old age or maybe we learned our lesson from 15 years of sailing a gaff-rigged catboat, but we douse the gennaker when we first think about it in the 15 years we've had our sloop. Consequently, our stories of boating terror do not involve a gennaker.


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## Cruiser2B (Jan 6, 2011)

fallard, thanks. i was very interested in spinnaker, but guy selling from Canada has been wishy washy about the price he originally quoted me....he know wants to take it to a sailmaker to make sure we both are happy with the sale(not sail)....what a clown! i found a guy locally that has an asy one but wants tooooooo much loot...like $2k or something silly.


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

Agree: $2K sounds like a lot for a used sail for a 30' boat. BTW, you might want to have a sailmaker check a used light air sail before you sign on the dotted line.


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## AdamLein (Nov 6, 2007)

Personally I love flying my symmetrical. The ability to see under the sail really changes the experience. I have practiced setting, jibing, and dousing the sock in light air, solo, no sock.

To me the main issue is that once the chute is down, it's down for the day. I'm usually too busy with other things to take the time to repack it correctly. Perhaps with practice, and with somebody else to keep watch so I wouldn't have to do it in the cockpit, this will get easier. Any tips?


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## wsmckelvy (Jul 21, 2009)

I bought a C&C 40 last year it came with a spinnaker and all the gear. Mostly my girlfriend and I sail the boat out of Annapolis. We used the spinnaker a few times, but with a 16' foot pole to deal with there was really to much going on during jibes for the two of us handle. (When we have at 2 others on board that know what they are doing it's a blast!) We bought a asymmetrical! While it isnt as fast dead down wind, it is very very easy to handle, and we dont even have to think about throwing it up. For what its worth I got it at Bacon Sails for 2,300 with everything included.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

AdamLein said:


> .......To me the main issue is that once the chute is down, it's down for the day. I'm usually too busy with other things to take the time to repack it correctly. Perhaps with practice, and with somebody else to keep watch so I wouldn't have to do it in the cockpit, this will get easier. Any tips?


Though this works best with boats with non overlapping jibs, if you can make a bag/turtle that fits your companionway (or find a way to hang yours there) AND your sheets/guys are long enough you can hoist and douse in and out of the bag, leaving your lines attached and all you need to do them is get onto the proper jibe for rehoisting. You hoist and douse under the boom, no need to 'repack' in between. Once hoisted pull the guy to stretch the foot and bring the pole to where you need it. With roller furling you can roll out the jib and the takedown is easy in the lee of both sails.

A 150 can get in the way but it works well with small headsails - and there's always the option of furling the jib/genny before hoisting or dousing.


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## booboonme (Mar 11, 2011)

Using a spinnaker will rock your world, we have an Alberg30 and our primary sail is a 110% Polyester laminate small headsail that works really well from about 10 knots right up to 35knts with a double reed in the main. Our spinnaker is an oversized cruising chute where the luff and leach are only 1 foot different so we can fly it like a cruising chute or with a pole. The thing about using a pole is its a bit more complex to run although you get used to it. Also you need a bit more rigging. For example a topping lift for the pole, I also use tweakers for the sheets and guys for control. With the cruising chute you only need a downhaul which I run through the bow roller and then I still use tweakers as the help with sail shape a lot. We have actually broken 10 knots with the spinnaker up a headsail and the main in 30 knots and let me tell you that was rocking. Not for the faint of hear though. But make no mistake once you learn how to use a spinnaker and have a nice run with one your life will be forever changed.

Give it a go its all good and its fun.

Good Luck!
Booboonme


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## mgiguere (May 22, 2004)

WSMC...always liked the C&C 40. There were two in Marblehead years ago when I lived there and they won everything.


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

AdamLein said:


> Any tips?


douse into the forehatch. leave everything attached. just remember what side you doused on and set it again from that side. no need to repack unless it came down in a big twisting mess. Round the cans racing you can do the companionway, but then the entrance to the cabin is blocked.


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## AdamLein (Nov 6, 2007)

Faster said:


> Though this works best with boats with non overlapping jibs, if you can make a bag/turtle that fits your companionway (or find a way to hang yours there) AND your sheets/guys are long enough you can hoist and douse in and out of the bag, leaving your lines attached and all you need to do them is get onto the proper jibe for rehoisting. You hoist and douse under the boom, no need to 'repack' in between. Once hoisted pull the guy to stretch the foot and bring the pole to where you need it.


Sounds like a great idea, but I've read so much about how important it is to pack correctly that I'd be worried about the chute coming back out twisted. Is that not an issue because I'm leaving lines attached?

I like the whole under-the-boom aspect. So far I've been hosting from the foredeck or side deck and dousing down the companionway, but since I single-hand a lot I'd rather stay in the cockpit if I can.

Also no furling. Means I do have to leave the cockpit, but only long enough to pull the jib down and secure it, or release the securing line.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Adam it's the same principle as a 'stuff bag' for a coil of rope. It will come out the reverse it went in... and, as you suggest, if the sheets/guys/halyards are not released they can't get twisted about in the bag.

We sailed a Martin 242 with this setup for years with no snags. It's important that you have no sharp 'grabbers' or pinch points on the boom/rig in the hoist/douse path. It is a bit more effort to haul the kite up against the sail and at times the shroulds, but with no tear points it seemed to not be a problem.

On the hoist, halyard full up, sail in lee of main, pull guy through till you fetch up the pole, and trim for pole angle (height was preset) and only then trim the sheet as it fills.

On the douse, grab the sheet under the boom, release the guy and let it run through.. gather the entire foot if you can (you may need to ease the halyard a few feet) then with the clews together haul the sail down and stuff the 'tube' in the bag, leaving everything attached.

If you find yourself forced to hoist on the opposite gybe from the takedown, you can do a windward set, but that requires some agile crew, otherwise grab the bag with sheets/halyard attached, and walk the entire thing around the front of the boat, rehang the bag and you're good to go.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Cruiser2B said:


> fallard, thanks. i was very interested in spinnaker, but guy selling from Canada has been wishy washy about the price he originally quoted me....he know wants to take it to a sailmaker to make sure we both are happy with the sale(not sail)....what a clown! i found a guy locally that has an asy one but wants tooooooo much loot...like $2k or something silly.


Bacon Sails here in Annapolis has some that are affordable and will fit your boat. No affiliation here, just a satisfied customer.

Alberg 30 spinnakers for sale


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## AdamLein (Nov 6, 2007)

Faster said:


> It's important that you have no sharp 'grabbers' or pinch points on the boom/rig in the hoist/douse path.


Was just thinking I'll have to look carefully for this... my instinct is that the chute should never touch anything but air.



> On the douse, ... release the guy and let it run through.


I was going to ask about this. I'm used to going up to the foredeck to quick-release the guy at the tack. It keeps the pole under control until I'm ready to lower it. You're suggesting letting the guy run all the way through the pole jaws until the free end is back to the cockpit? I'd have to go to the foredeck later to put it back in the pole jaws. Just trying to foresee the gotchas.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

AdamLein said:


> ...I was going to ask about this. I'm used to going up to the foredeck to quick-release the guy at the tack. It keeps the pole under control until I'm ready to lower it. You're suggesting letting the guy run all the way through the pole jaws until the free end is back to the cockpit? I'd have to go to the foredeck later to put it back in the pole jaws. Just trying to foresee the gotchas.


You do let the guy run all the way through.. As I mentioned earlier if your sheet/guy is long enough then it will reach from the hatch, around the bow and back to the cockpit. So it can stay in the jaws. In fact you might even be able to simply drop the pole to the deck down the forestay and tack over it with the jib. This usually needs a bungee cord to retract the pole lift out of the way. Then for the next hoist you simply reset the pole height and reverse the process.


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## AdamLein (Nov 6, 2007)

I see. I think my guy is probably long enough. I think I can picture it now.... from the hatch, over the lifelines aft of the genoa turning block, then forward.

Getting the pole down sounds important. I have sailed with the pole still connected to the mast, tacking the genoa over it as you say. It sticks a bit through the pulpit which would keep it from swinging back. There would be a hairy minute or so while the spinnaker is going into the bag and the pole doesn't have any lateral control. I guess I could try to keep it snugged up against the stay with the foreguy but the angle of pull is pretty vertical.

Like everything, this will require some practice and experimentation; step one, figure out how to hang the bag in the companionway.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

AdamLein said:


> Like everything, this will require some practice and experimentation; step one, figure out how to hang the bag in the companionway.


If you or you're other half can sew, it's a simple matter to make a rectangular bag that hooks onto the hatch slider rails, and it needn't be so deep making it possible to get below with it in place.(esp with that large Catalina companionway - it could live in the forward section) A mesh bottom for those wet days, and a velcroed top will keep things secure while you're sailing white sails in between runs.

Anyhow, some or even all of this might work for you once you've sorted out your own situation. Hopefully this will help.


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## AdamLein (Nov 6, 2007)

Yeah, thanks for all the tips. My situation is complicated in a variety of ways, but given enough weekends I'm sure I'll work it out.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Adam, can you clarify something for me? When you do a take-down, you ease pole forward to the headstay, then does your bowman trip the guy? I'm assuming then you then take the kite onto the boat somewhere between the shrouds and bow? When we don't have time to do a re-pack we do something similar to Faster's "letter box" drop. Instead of tripping the guy, we run it (like Faster) we take down on the bow and "squirrel" it down the fore hatch. Bowman takes the sail in and stuffs while a "squirrel" down in the cabin pulls the sail into the vberth. As long as the head doesn't completely twist around, you will be ok and the tapes will run free. Once the sail is in the vberth, pull the clews and head out so they are just clearing the hatch then drop and dog the hatch to lock the corners into position(with the head sticking out on the front side). You can then unclip the spinnaker gear and reposistion it for the next hoist. The squirrel needs to make sure that the sail doesn't hang up on any doors or interior furnishings and that one dog on the hatch is free of sail material. To hoist, just reattach the gear to their appropriate corners, un-dog and open the hatch and hoist away. Obviously, this doesn't work on the open ocean or in crappy conditions, but then, you will probably want to do the "letter box" drop anyways. The biggest problem I have is Mrs B doesn't like wet, dirty sails in her nice vberth.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

GeorgeB said:


> ..... The biggest problem I have is Mrs B doesn't like wet, dirty sails in her nice vberth.


Funny, that.......

That's another advantage of the companionway bag... no wet sails on cushions anywhere. btw I think the practical limit for this idea is likely about 27-30 footers esp with masthead rigs.


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## AdamLein (Nov 6, 2007)

GeorgeB said:


> Adam, can you clarify something for me? When you do a take-down, you ease pole forward to the headstay, then does your bowman trip the guy?




Precisely... the guy stays cleated off and the shackle keeps it in the pole jaws, so I always have three control lines on the pole.



> I'm assuming then you then take the kite onto the boat somewhere between the shrouds and bow?


Nope. I pull the sheet in under the boom and the chute goes down onto the cabin sole/settee/galley/dinette.



> When we don't have time to do a re-pack we do something similar to Faster's "letter box" drop. Instead of tripping the guy, we run it (like Faster) we take down on the bow and "squirrel" it down the fore hatch.


Neat idea. Why not use a sail bag hooked up under the forehatch to catch the sail?

I also like the benefit of leaving the lines clipped on for the next hoist, though on the other hand, being able to stow them someplace means I don't have to worry about them fouling the jib's rigging. This might work for me but either way it means spending a lot of time away from the cockpit, so I probably wouldn't do it without a second hand.


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## JordanH (Dec 13, 2008)

The following articles / instructions are intended for racing. However, the instructions illustrate the proper way to set and douse a kite. I've never flown a spinnaker solo so I'm not sure how full-crew instructions will apply to you. At a minimum, I hope these help you visualize what is happening.
http://j44resolute.com/coachscornerpage.html

I have no idea who's website that is, but the instructions are fantastic.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

The launch bag using line for slides works until the spinnakers get a bit to BIG


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## AdamLein (Nov 6, 2007)

Convenient for washing your sails down as well.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Adam, I like your way of tripping the guy. When we run it, the pole bangs on the head stay during the take down. On the Cal 40, we letter box into the companionway, but then bow and mast man go down below and run the tapes after the genoa is set for the windward leg. It might be a big boat thing as I believe that the Santana 22s, Moores and Melges do the companionway drop. Faster, clarify something please. If you keep all the spin gear attached after the take down, won't it be on the wrong side when you're back at the windward mark? Wouldn't it force you into a gybe-set at the mark? Also, how do you keep the spin halyard from flipping behind the cap shroud? Thanks for the interesting discussion. Our family Catalina is mostly in "cruise mode" and as you can see, the dodger makes a companionway drop a little problemmatic.

_







_[/font]


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

GeorgeB said:


> Faster, clarify something please. If you keep all the spin gear attached after the take down, won't it be on the wrong side when you're back at the windward mark? Wouldn't it force you into a gybe-set at the mark? Also, how do you keep the spin halyard from flipping behind the cap shroud? Thanks for the interesting discussion. Our family Catalina is mostly in "cruise mode" and as you can see, the dodger makes a companionway drop a little problemmatic.


George, you're right, of course. Doing a leeward drop would typically require a gybe set at the next mark assuming a standard triangle/WL course. So, depending on the situation we either did a windward takedown in anticipation, or did a last minute windward (poleless) set. Of course either of those maneuvers means having to go forward and disengage the pole, negating a big part of the advantage of this method. And it requires some agile crew to pull it off. The other tactic was mentioned already, walking the bag all the way around the boat to the other side on the beat to prepare for the next set. This also requires releasing and resetting the guy in the pole.

The cap shroud issue is valid... it would occasionally get on the wrong side of the rig but not as often as you might think ( we had swept spreaders, which helped there I think.)

But, it does avoid having to repack the chute every lap...

Great shot of your boat, btw.... I hope you have a copy without the watermark!.. and yes, a dodger does change things altogether and is why we no longer use this method on our current boat. But a collapsible dodger could be folded out of the way.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

On W/L courses the only time I have seen a jibe/set pay off is if there is huge wind shift 

on races that go around various government marks it's a huge advantage to able to do it well 

The double spreader rig on Zzzoom loves to snag halyards so we can never hook in the halyard to the last moment 

I prefer the weather take down as it gets into higher winds as i find it less effort to sort out the sheets and guys then fight with the spinnaker


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## mgiguere (May 22, 2004)

Moe's ChrisCraft (S&S) 1967 Apache 37


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## mgiguere (May 22, 2004)

Guess I don't know how to include the pic...:>(


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## AdamLein (Nov 6, 2007)

Can you guys explain what you mean be weather and leeward takedown? I thought the spinnaker always comes down on the leeward side. Or do you mean before vs. after rounding the leeward mark?

I'm thinking of the spinnaker mostly for cruising, so I generally have a bit of luxury in terms of deciding what tack I want to be on for setting and dousing (I try to always do it on starboard).

George: are you ever concerned that pole/headstay contact is going to cause some damage? On thing I could see doing is rigging a permanent afterguy or pair of afterguys to keep the pole back once you let the chute's guy run.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

For a weather take down we would trip the outboard end of the pole and as soon as the sheet and guy are out of it get the pole off the mast and try NOT to lose it 

Then i would pull like heck on the sheet /guy and drag the spinnaker around the head-foil at which point its held in the boat much better by the Genoa and down it comes 

No matter which way you take it down If the person at the helms main focus is not holding the correct coarse till you get it down you end up pretty screwed


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## JordanH (Dec 13, 2008)

AdamLein said:


> Can you guys explain what you mean be weather and leeward takedown? I thought the spinnaker always comes down on the leeward side. Or do you mean before vs. after rounding the leeward mark?


Hi Adam,
In my post above, I linked to a bunch of articles. There are 4 different types of take-downs described; Weather (windwoard) and leeward drops included.

The weather drop essentially means you collapse the sail behind the jib and the take it down around the forestay on the windward side. A good benefit of this, if you're racing, is that you don't need to re-rig it all later at the weather mark.

The direct link to read more about it is here: The Anatomy of a Takedown: Part I - The Weather Takedown

Regards,
J.


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## SpcAlan1 (Aug 31, 2009)

I have the opportunity to buy a brand new spinnaker from my boat's previous owner. I have a 30 Islander, the spin is from a 27 Hunter... he says it will work.

problem is... I have never flown one before.... but my boat is rigged to fly one..
I figure 150 bucks for the sail - can't hurt to try it.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

You would have to compare the sizes as is gonna be kind of small and at some point there to small to use correctly


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## SpcAlan1 (Aug 31, 2009)

I agree, but since I have never used one.. I might want a smaller one to get used to it.


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## JordanH (Dec 13, 2008)

SpcAlan1 said:


> I agree, but since I have never used one.. I might want a smaller one to get used to it.


I think you may find it harder to use if the sail is ill fitting. For a sail that's too small, I imagine you'll have a tough time with pole height and may find that your spin pole is too long - but that all depends on the dimensions of the sail.

Find out what the size range is for your boat and equipment and then make sure you buy a spinnaker in that range; Too big or too small, you'll have a hard time trying to fly it.


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## SpcAlan1 (Aug 31, 2009)

Ok, since we are talking about ill-sized sails..

I bought my Islander 30 with a rolle furling. The sail is a North Sail and is HUGE.

When completely unfurled, the sail comes all the way back to the cockpit - NO LIE. This is a huge mother of a sail. Someone said yes that is correct - it is a 150% sail. I have yet to sail with it out more than 5-6 feet out. Almost over powered.


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

Which islander 30 model, and which hunter 27 model? 

Both are masthead rigs I'm assuming? The following info is from sailboatdata.com

Hunter 27 
I: 34.50' / 10.52m J: 11.50' / 3.51m 

Islander 30
I: 32.80' / 10.00m J: 10.80' / 3.29m 

Going by those dimensions, the hunter 27 spin would be bigger than one for an Islander 30. So for that $150, it'll be a little oversized. Also, for $150 check the sail carefully for rips and patches. Also blow on the fabric and make sure its not shot. It should be very noisy. Not soft. But the alternative is $2000+ for a new chute. 

Also you won't be able to race PHRF without taking a hit.


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## JordanH (Dec 13, 2008)

I think we may be hijacking the thread. However, that's not what I meant about ill-fitting.
A 150% genoa is likely sized correctly for your boat; your deck hardware is in the correct place for it, the luff, leech and foot are all the correct dimensions. Although it may not be the correct sail to choose for your wind conditions.

What I meant by ill-fitting is that the luff, leech and foot of the spinnaker *may* not be sized correctly for your hardware. For example, if you hoist the sail to the correct height, will you be able to get the pole out to the tack at an appropriate height so that you can give the sail the correct shape?

hmmm, I made the assumption that you are looking to buy a symmetrical spinnaker. I suppose you should confirm or correct my assumption.

Lastly, if you aren't able use your genoa yet, the spinnaker is likely an unsafe choice for you to use at this time.


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## JordanH (Dec 13, 2008)

zz4gta said:


> Which islander 30 model, and which hunter 27 model?


Good question.
Some of the other Islander models I see are
Islander 30....
I: 38.50' / 11.73m J: 12.60' / 3.84m (ISLANDER 30-2 Sailboat details on sailboatdata.com)
I: 40.00' / 12.19m J: 12.80' / 3.90m (ISLANDER 30-2 TM Sailboat details on sailboatdata.com)

Also, there are multiple sizes or cuts of spinnakers for the same I/J combination as some boats are more tender than others.

The bottom line is that you need to find out from a sailmaker what size is correct for your boat and hardware and then make your decision about the sail.


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## SpcAlan1 (Aug 31, 2009)

zz4gta said:


> Which islander 30 model, and which hunter 27 model?
> 
> Both are masthead rigs I'm assuming? The following info is from sailboatdata.com
> 
> ...


The sail is very crisp and noisy. 150 bucks - I figure I can try it.
So this sail may be too large for my boat.


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## SpcAlan1 (Aug 31, 2009)

JordanH said:


> I think we may be hijacking the thread. However, that's not what I meant about ill-fitting.
> A 150% genoa is likely sized correctly for your boat; your deck hardware is in the correct place for it, the luff, leech and foot are all the correct dimensions. Although it may not be the correct sail to choose for your wind conditions.
> 
> What I meant by ill-fitting is that the luff, leech and foot of the spinnaker *may* not be sized correctly for your hardware. For example, if you hoist the sail to the correct height, will you be able to get the pole out to the tack at an appropriate height so that you can give the sail the correct shape?
> ...


I do not a pole yet, so that will be an additional purchase.
I figured it was a good deal - too goo to pass up, even if I don't know how to use it ( yet ).

No racing - just cruising..

Genoa - I use it, just 5-6 feet unfurled.. I would be CRAZY to unroll is completely while blowing more than 5knots.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

I would hold off on the spinaker untll you see the full cost of all the gear as it sounds like you missing a lot more than just a pole 

There and easy 2k++ worth of stuff you may not need and not have 

Not to sound harsh BUT if rolling out the 150 above 5 knots is your current comfort level a spinaker is gonna go way over that


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## SpcAlan1 (Aug 31, 2009)

tommays said:


> I would hold off on the spinaker untll you see the full cost of all the gear as it sounds like you missing a lot more than just a pole
> 
> There and easy 2k++ worth of stuff you may not need and not have
> 
> Not to sound harsh BUT if rolling out the 150 above 5 knots is your current comfort level a spinaker is gonna go way over that


I think I am going to hold off. for both of your reasons.

I am still trying to get used to this new boat, and even though I have 'sailed' ( loose term ) for 2 years, i still have stupid questions regarding the basics of sailing...


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## JordanH (Dec 13, 2008)

SpcAlan1 said:


> I do not a pole yet, so that will be an additional purchase.
> I figured it was a good deal - too goo to pass up, even if I don't know how to use it ( yet ).
> 
> No racing - just cruising..
> ...


You're right, $150 may be a great deal, but I think you're making a choice in holding off. You don't want to by an incorrectly sized pole, to match an incorrectly sized spinnaker and all the rest of the necessary hardware which you'll want to replace once you go and buy a nice spinnaker later. I'd make sure you know the right size for your boat and then wait for a good deal... they do come up more often than you'd think.

That 150% genoa should take care of you for a while until you are comfortable with it. I don't know your particular boat, but the 150% genoa should be quite a usable sail for you especially if you live in an area (like me) where the winds are often 5-10knots. If you think the 150% is large, wait until you get a load of the spinnaker - it's HUGE! Talk about fun.  If you get a chance, go out with someone else flying a chute then do it! See what it feels like to fly one... I warn you though, you may want the spinnaker more than ever after that.


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## SpcAlan1 (Aug 31, 2009)

I think it is the best decision to hold off.
Heck I could push my jib cars further up and use the genoa as as 'spin' sail. haha.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Faster, thanks for the kind words. David Lyons is one of our local boat photographers and he cannot take a bad picture of us. We wind up buying three or four pictures from him each year and have amassed such a collection that we rotate our pictures both in the office and at EYC. Unlike H20Shots, he knows that the guys like me are always looking for good boat portraits so he always tries to get shots of us guys in the "cheap seats" too.

Adam, the pole banging on the foil is a problem especially once the tack is recovered on board and the guy is no longer running (while it runs it will pull a slight tension on the guy helping to keep the pole against the headstay). Your pit man needs to drop the topper as soon as he sees this. If the lift is at the mast, your mast man has to do double duty along with taking the sail in.

Windward takedown: Are you guys taking in the kite behind the genoa? I've done a version where we tack at the mark, collapsing the kite and dropping it windward of the genoa, using it as a scoop to guide the kite onto the deck. Very fast and the boat maintains it's speed all the way around the mark (genoa goes up before the mark rounding). Just like the gybe set, you might wander into the wind lanes for boats yet to round and although you may have rights as leward boat, you still are sailing in disturbed air. We did this a lot on the Areodyne with her A-kite, not so much on the Cal 40.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

A windward take down to me is:

Unclip the pole, grab the guy, blow the sheet and drag the sail down a hatch on the windward side.. on larger boats a belly takedown line helps here. On larger boats you'd likely use the forehatch, on our little 24 footer we brought it back into the companionway bag.

The trick is to blow the halyard at the right rate so that you can recover all the cloth before it goes into the water in front of you.... if that happens it can get real ugly... and slow.... and embarrassing..... Don't ask.


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## AdamLein (Nov 6, 2007)

GeorgeB said:


> Adam, the pole banging on the foil is a problem especially once the tack is recovered on board and the guy is no longer running (while it runs it will pull a slight tension on the guy helping to keep the pole against the headstay). Your pit man needs to drop the topper as soon as he sees this. If the lift is at the mast, your mast man has to do double duty along with taking the sail in.


I am all of the people you mention.

My foreguy and topping lift are shackled onto rings permanently connected to a bridle to the ends of the pole. I think I might run a lightweight line from one of these rings back to the cockpit, maybe one on either side, to keep the pole back after the guy has run through.



> Are you guys taking in the kite behind the genoa? I've done a version where we tack at the mark, collapsing the kite and dropping it windward of the genoa, using it as a scoop to guide the kite onto the deck.
> 
> ...
> 
> We did this a lot on the Areodynewith her A-kite, not so much on the Cal 40.


Neat idea... was just about to ask what happens to the pole during all this, but I guess I have my answer.


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## JordanH (Dec 13, 2008)

GeorgeB said:


> Windward takedown: Are you guys taking in the kite behind the genoa? I've done a version where we tack at the mark, collapsing the kite and dropping it windward of the genoa, using it as a scoop to guide the kite onto the deck. Very fast and the boat maintains it's speed all the way around the mark (genoa goes up before the mark rounding). Just like the gybe set, you might wander into the wind lanes for boats yet to round and although you may have rights as leward boat, you still are sailing in disturbed air. We did this a lot on the Areodyne


Hi George, when flying a symmetrical chute, the kite is never on the windward side of the jib.

When we talk about windward/weather drop vs. leeward drop, we are talking about collapsing the chute behind the jib and then for a windward drop, pulling the kite in around the forestay (remember, kite is blowing out to leeward at this point). For a leeward drop, we are pulling in the kite under the jib on the leeward side of the forestay. The former is nice, because we don't need to re-rig everything for the next go at the top mark. The latter is used when it's just too windy to pull the kite around.

I've never flown an asymmetrical spinnaker like yours on the Aerodyne, so I suspect you have different tricks in your sail bag. 

Once again, here are some links:
Symmetrical spinnaker how-to's: http://j44resolute.com/coachscornerpage.html
Asymmetrical spinnaker how-to: http://www.j105.org/docs/Dousing.pdf


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

Guys, there is a Windward take down, usually need a 'human guy' while someone stashes the pole. 

There's a leward takedown / stretch and blow, leaving the pole up, pretty easy short handed. 

A letterbox or mailslot/box takedown, under a lose foot main, over the boom. 

The one George B is talking about is a "Mexican" takedown. Which puts you on starboard coming into the leeward mark. Your on STB raise the jib, drop the pole to STB, quickly jibe the jib and the main while the foredeck hauls in the kite on port. As the boat turns up, the chute flops into the trimmed jib and away you go upwind with the gear run and stored for a bare away port rounding set. It's beautiful but takes perfect timing, in close quarters, good crew and driver, and a pair of brass ones. If it goes bad, all those port tackers can protest you for taking too much room to round.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

We Californians call it a “Mexican” because if things don’t go according to plan, the boat will be in Mexico before the crew gets things sorted out (expression started out in SD). As you guys are aware, roundings are one of the areas where you can really improve boat posistion and pass other boats. It’s amazing what we will go through in order to shave off a little time.


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## JordanH (Dec 13, 2008)

zz4gta said:


> Guys, there is a Windward take down, usually need a 'human guy' while someone stashes the pole.
> 
> There's a leward takedown / stretch and blow, leaving the pole up, pretty easy short handed.
> 
> A letterbox or mailslot/box takedown, under a lose foot main, over the boom.


Hi zz, yes, see the links I've posted above. It documents the 4 types, including mexican, that you mention. However, these are all for a symmetrical spinnaker.



zz4gta said:


> The one George B is talking about is a "Mexican" takedown. Which puts you on starboard coming into the leeward mark. Your on STB raise the jib, drop the pole to STB, quickly jibe the jib and the main while the foredeck hauls in the kite on port. As the boat turns up, the chute flops into the trimmed jib and away you go upwind with the gear run and stored for a bare away port rounding set. It's beautiful but takes perfect timing, in close quarters, good crew and driver, and a pair of brass ones. If it goes bad, all those port tackers can protest you for taking too much room to round.


GeorgeB is flying an asymmetrical spinnaker. He has no pole. He may be talking about an A-sail version of the Mexican, but when they do it, their spinnaker stays on the windward side of the jib.

I've never seen a symmetrical spinnaker to windward of a jib... Please correct me if I'm wrong. When we do the Mexican, the spinnaker streams out to leeward as we haul arse to bring it on board. I could only wish it fell neatly on deck.


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

If the kite is going to leeward, then you're not doing a mexican douse. The idea is to over sheet the spin as the boat turns down for the jibe. So when you jibe, quickly, the chute collapses into the jib.


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## JordanH (Dec 13, 2008)

You may very well be correct. I'm curious to see how you get a symmetrical sail on the windward side of the boat. It's possible that we're saying the same thing, only that you are taking the sail in faster than we are (from leeward) so it looks like it's collapsing inside the jib.
I couldn't find a video of it, do you have a link? I'd like to see that.

This article ( http://www.sailnet.com/forums/racing-articles/20879-spinnaker-takedown-basics.html ) shows a good example of a windward takedown (second picture), a leeward take down (fourth picture), and talks briefly about a Mexican:
"The object here is to have the whole crew time the maneuver so that as the helmsman steers through the jibe and the mainsail and headsail trimmers jibe their sails, the spinnaker is released and rapidly gathered down below. "
That description is what we call a Mexican. The jibe and take down in one manuevre.

This article, http://www.sailnet.com/forums/racing-articles/20753-asymmetrical-vs-symmetrical-spinnakers.html , gives a good description of A-sails on Mumm 30's (now Farr). They talk about the Mexican of an asymmetrical sail as you describe; the sail collapses into the jib.

Yes, I think we are saying the same thing. Over sheeting the spinnaker, just as you go into the jibe is collapsing the chute as you jibe, although it is still technically flying to leeward and you still end up pulling it around the forestay.

It's possible that I'm incorrect, please feel free to send along a link so I can visualize this better.


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

The J44 Resolute articles are good, but I don't agree with them when they discribe a Mexican. They're not doing one. They're jibing the kite, and doing a windward douse. In a Mexican, you don't jibe the kite, you don't rotate it infront of the boat. The sheet is over trimmed and the boat is spun very quickly around the mark so the sail doesn't have a chance to be blown out to leeward. 


> The so-called "Mexican" takedown is a common variation where the pole is removed first, the boat jibed, and the sail is then gathered on the bow as it backs into the jib as the boat turned upwind. In both cases, fast hands are needed to get the sail into the boat before heading upwind.


This can be used in sym boats and asym boats. No huge difference, but you need more time to store the pole before you jibe the jib and main. 


> MEXICAN TAKEDOWN: n. spinnaker douse in which the boat jibes, but the spinnaker is left flying on the new windward side, where it collapses against the jib as it is pulled down. Used on camera by Dennis Conner during the race on April 13, 1995, but is believed to have been coined by Buddy Melges during the 1992 campaign. In '92 it might have referred to a conventional floater drop and port rounding, during which the spinnaker blows off to the southeast, towards Mexico. See KIWI DOUSE.
> 
> NELSONS


America's Cup Sailing Dictionary



> KIWI DOUSE n. Spinnaker douse similar to MEXICAN TAKEDOWN, but with a symmetrical spinnaker. First used in 1987 America's Cup races by New Zealand crews.


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## nolatom (Jun 29, 2005)

usually the name of a country, followed immediately by the word "jibe", is not a good thing....;-)


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

I’m not sure that I want to “poke the bear” or let this thread fade away quietly, but let me try to add to the Mexican. On the Aerodyne, it was a no brainer. Go into the leward mark, tack quickly, drop the A-kite on the windward side of the jib and onto the deck. Bang! That quickly. The reason behind the maneuver is if you are behind someone but no inside overlap, you exit the mark on the opposite tack and approximately same ladder as the lead boat. Otherwise, you are being close covered by the lead boat and one ladder rung behind. On the Cal with it’s symmetrical kite, the maneuver works best if you are coming in for a close rounding and are sailing really deep. You first hoist the genoa, then as you are entering the mark, you trip the pole like you are going to gybe, but instead of resetting the pole, you drop it. Helm continues to gybe the boat to windward, then past head–to-wind and onto the new tack, pirouetting the boat around the mark. Again very fast, but very complicated. We tried this during the Rolex BBS which wasn’t the cleanest which instead of gaining a position, we dropped one. I do mainsheet on the Cal and this is murder as I have to trim in from a deep run to a beat on the opposite tack in a heartbeat, and those of you familiar with a Cal 40, there is a mile of line I’ve got to haul through the mainsheet blocks.


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## JordanH (Dec 13, 2008)

Hi George,
You're not poking the bear. It's been an informative discussion and I'm always open to learn new things.

I understand what zz4 is saying, although I've never seen that version done myself. And what we've been doing is the 'Mexican' as listed in the J44 and Sailnet links. It appears that people call two different types of douses by the same name. It's good for me to be aware of the difference.

I'm going to bring zz4's method up with the skipper and see if we can give zz4's version a try. I'll add another tool in my toolkit and maybe have a little more excitement in the club races. Nothing like pulling a new rabbit out of the hat when competing against the usual competitors.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

JordenH, I apologize, I really didn’t mean to direct a comment your way. I think that I’m just a little battle fatigued – wading through all other recent nasty threads. On the Areodyne, I did mast and pit and even though the takedown is simpler, the division we were in was a real dogfight. Holes would open up and close just as quickly and half the time we, the crew wouldn’t know which takedown until the last moment. Boat already head to wind and the hole closes then the helmsman bears off for a windward douse. Chaos ensues. Good times.

I do enjoy these threads and this dialog a lot. I'm constantly picking up little pointers and benefiting from others points of view. Good to have a serious discussion about sailing.


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