# Boat People Scum



## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

Went ashore the other day to go to grocery store. Had on clean shirt, shorts, and sandals. We had our backpack and rolly cart along with a small bag of trash to toss in the trash can at the store. As I was putting the bag of trash in the can this older woman came out of the store and gave us a look of "I hate you homeless boat people scum!"

I'm trying to figure out how she could tell.


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

Don0190 said:


> I'm trying to figure out how she could tell.


Most non boaters don't take their trash with them to the grocery store.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Eye patch?


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Buck up! You are part of the other 1%.


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## scubadoo (Apr 5, 2014)

jephotog said:


> Most non boaters don't take their trash with them to the grocery store.


True, but now that you mention it, why not? Most of the by-products comes from there....


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## ImGary01 (Feb 8, 2018)

Maybe because you were happy, smiling, relaxed and going about your day (boating can do that to a person). What she said reflects more on her than it does you. Maybe she was having a terrible day, got bad news, etc. Maybe under different circumstances she could even be pleasant. I was going to call her a miserable old hag but I don't have enough info to come to that judgement right away.


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## PhilCarlson (Dec 14, 2013)

She's already consumed more of your energy than she deserves.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

jephotog said:


> Most non boaters don't take their trash with them to the grocery store.


True, they throw it out the car window. I know because we were picking it up as we walked.


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## john61ct (Jan 23, 2017)

Wow talk about projection, so many assumptions.

Maybe she suffered traumatic abuse in her childhood from someone who looked like you.

Maybe she had a spasm of pain from her terminal disease and wasn't even really looking at you.

And even if your telepathy was accurate, so what, really worth posting about?


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Chill pill.....


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## john61ct (Jan 23, 2017)

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f129/social-scale-question-216086.html


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## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

Maybe she was just jealous, wondering how your wife is so lucky to have such a Handsome, debonair husband with great legs. ;-)


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

What did you expect? 'Welcome Sonny?' 'Make yourself at home?' 'Marry my daughter?' You've got to remember that these are simply the nouveau riche of Florida. These are people of the land. The common clay of Florida's wealthy coastal cities.






It will get worse when you reach Naples...


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

john61ct said:


> And even if your telepathy was accurate, so what, really worth posting about?


it gave you something to post trash about, which is your goal and I'm tired of it and know what to do


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

I was having breakfast in a nice restaurant last week...didnt make a reservation and have to wait type of establishment.
Great food but i looked over and saw a guy put ketchup on scrambled eggs his waitress had just served him. So very wrong...
I couldve just kept my judgement private but i felt a need to berate him in public....you know that urge swelling up inside..a boiling..and my twitter followers might like it too.
The manager of that Waffle House told me to leave and to never come back. And she wasnt very nice about it.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

We remove as much packaging as possible when we make a purchase and leave it at the store.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I’ve asked permission to use dumpsters and almost never been turned down. I’m often told it could only be that one time, which has always been fine. Garbage removal is very expensive on a commercial contract. I would never presume it was there for public use. 

I’ll bet the old lady has been victimized by much worse and was overreacting. Many cruisers take advantage. My biggest peeve are those that pull the lid off park receptacles, designed to capture drinking cups and picnic plates, in order to jam two full garbage bags inside and then balance the lid atop that no longer fits. That’s low class.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Years ago Shelter Island instituted a policy that it would only accept bagged trash in their designated bags... which were sold in the hardware/marine store to boaters but probably distributed to local homeowners. Apparently boaters had been leaving huge trash bags from their boats. Lids were locked so you couldn't shove a large bag of trash into them. Dering harbor has hundreds of boats moored and lots of weekend sailors plus all those how pick up transient moorings and anchor. Their solution was reasonable and cost a few pennies. Disposing of trash from boats is a problem.

Northport has a dumpster in the parking lot next to the Harbor which anyone can use and many trash cans without small opening lids. This town has 2x the boats as Dering Harbor, but the town is willing to provide trash collection because the park is popular and many pedestrians, tourists and boaters visit it. They don't allow food vendors however, probably not because of trash but to support the local restaurants, and delis who sell take out food. The town is very clean and they provide dog poop bags free in the park.

Humans create waste and the packaging of everything we buy adds to it. We need solutions not NIMBY attitudes.


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

RegisteredUser said:


> I was having breakfast in a nice restaurant last week...didnt make a reservation and have to wait type of establishment.
> Great food but i looked over and saw a guy put ketchup on scrambled eggs his waitress had just served him. So very wrong...
> I couldve just kept my judgement private but i felt a need to berate him in public....you know that urge swelling up inside..a boiling..and my twitter followers might like it too.
> The manager of that Waffle House told me to leave and to never come back. And she wasnt very nice about it.


Ketchup on eggs is good. But not on waffles.


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## Uncle Bob the 1st (Mar 14, 2016)

Don0190 said:


> Went ashore the other day to go to grocery store. Had on clean shirt, shorts, and sandals. We had our backpack and rolly cart along with a small bag of trash to toss in the trash can at the store. As I was putting the bag of trash in the can this older woman came out of the store and gave us a look of "I hate you homeless boat people scum!"
> 
> I'm trying to figure out how she could tell.


Just give them a great big smile, say nothing and move on. It pisses them off even more. :grin:grin


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Given when traveling by boat or other means pickpockets and other untoward events occur. Regardless if you’re climbing off a mega yacht or old boat unless you’re surrounded by security personnel you’d be wise to dress down, wear no jewelry, not flash your money and in all ways be subdued.
Taking crap from keeping up with the Jones types is a small price to pay when you know you are living the life they can only dream about. I’ve seen this low key attitude in Boston Brahmins dressed in frayed rags who could “buy this town and put it in my shoe” as Jimi Hendrix said and farmers in their dirt encrusted overalls who could buy the city. Question is whether your choices are for you or how you’re seen in the eyes of others.


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

Minnewaska said:


> I'll bet the old lady has been victimized by much worse and was overreacting. Many cruisers take advantage. My biggest peeve are those that pull the lid off park receptacles, designed to capture drinking cups and picnic plates, in order to jam two full garbage bags inside and then balance the lid atop that no longer fits. That's low class.


This issue goes past boating and marinas.

Near my home is a Kmart and sometimes RVers will park and camp overnight there. One of the stores I frequent in this mall has a sign on the garbage can outside the store that says "small items only." My guess is they are sick of campers leaving large bags of garbage outside the trash for them to deal with.


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## john61ct (Jan 23, 2017)

nice, thanks


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## SailingStNick (Dec 13, 2006)

Ask her if she would rather you not give her your business (assuming she was the business owner), or visit her city and spend money?


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

So, am I to understand that most of the folks here actually would eat in a restaurant that serves commercially packaged ketchup? As opposed to fresh stuff they make on their own premises? Really now, have standards around here gotten so low?

I had been told, perhaps incorrectly, that Germany addressed the issue of excess packaging years ago, requiring stores to accept for recycling, whatever they were selling. So toothpaste tubes sold in cellowrapped cardboard boxes? Yes, you can leave all that at the store, just take the tube. I'm not sure that I see much of the trash "issue" though. Just spread it out knee-deep, hope it never decays, and sooner or later you can raise the ground level to mitigate the effects of global warming.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Cockroaches are an issue throughout the Caribbean. All non critical wrapping is taken off before the article goes on the boat. Especially cardboard (roach and other insect eggs) and plastic (won’t throw it in the ocean). 
Have a spray can of Bop and boric acid. Rarely need to use them.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Not all condiments are equal.
Good restaurants usually display the marine-grade sticker storefront.
Dont be fooled


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

boatpoker said:


> We remove as much packaging as possible when we make a purchase and leave it at the store.


I think often consumers think of moving the trash to the next stop.

That is to say, you buy your Groceries in one store and leave your trash where you buy your next bit of groceries

I wonder where the woman thought the garbage should go from her store??


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Let's say you live across from a popular dinghy dock and many cruisers use it to go to town. I'll bet, if a cruiser saw you in your driveway and asked you for a favor to dispose of a single bag of trash, in the can you pay to have picked up each week, you'd agree to help out. This thread is about that same cruiser sneaking up your driveway and putting their garbage into your pail, without asking first.


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## john61ct (Jan 23, 2017)

Such conflicts are simply prevented by the service being provided to boaters by the government. If some mechanism can provide for some level of "fair" user-pays, great, but if not, should not mean government creating such issues by just abandoning its responsibilities.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> Let's say you live across from a popular dinghy dock and many cruisers use it to go to town. I'll bet, if a cruiser saw you in your driveway and asked you for a favor to dispose of a single bag of trash, in the can you pay to have picked up each week, you'd agree to help out. This thread is about that same cruiser sneaking up your driveway and putting their garbage into your pail, without asking first.


Trash containers are not minded. People use them because they are there to place trash in. Sure a property owners and business PAY (usually) for trash to be collected and provide the appropriate container for it. Of course you would be pissed off if your container was filled up (and you end up paying for its removal).

So in Newport there IS a dumpster at the dinghy dock by the sailing center at the Armory. We use it. I believe there is one often at Kings Park pier... and we'll use that one too. There is also one or more over at Fort Adams. We put a grocery bag full because we don't store much rubbish aboard... at most to grocery bags.

Authorities should provide the service. I caught a woman.. who likely doesn't have a carting service leave a bunch of huge rubbish bags on the sidewalk next to a city trash can. Pretty creepy.

Hold your trash until you can dispose it properly.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

Minnewaska said:


> Let's say you live across from a popular dinghy dock and many cruisers use it to go to town. I'll bet, if a cruiser saw you in your driveway and asked you for a favor to dispose of a single bag of trash, in the can you pay to have picked up each week, you'd agree to help out. This thread is about that same cruiser sneaking up your driveway and putting their garbage into your pail, without asking first.


No it's not.

It's about putting a bag of trash into the trash can in front of the Publix's grocery store and some other shopper giving you the stink eye.

BTW - based on the average amount of money I spend at the Publix each time I've stopped and the average number of cruising boats there. If each are spending what I am then the cruisers are spending over $300k/yr at that store.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

The mafia ran the garbage business for quite a few years. Not real interested in turning it over to the most inefficient gang of gangsters, the government, unless absolutely necessary. At least like Mussolini the mafia made the trains run on time so to speak. 
Interested in pressing business to use less plastic in packaging and less packaging altogether.
I get a fair amount of stuff through the internet. It’s amazing how much wasteful packaging it comes in.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Don0190 said:


> ..... If each are spending what I am then the cruisers are spending over $300k/yr at that store.


Are you claiming you're entitled to use whatever you want of theirs? You got that look because you were doing something you did not have permission to do, but may have received permission, if you had asked.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

john61ct said:


> Such conflicts are simply prevented by the service being provided to boaters by the government......


I'd say that most places I've been, have a trash container for the boaters. Some, such as Cuttyhunk, requires a $5 per bag fee paid on the honor system. I'm guessing the tone of this thread would suggest a dump and dash was entitled, because one bought some ice cream and a lobster on the island.

I've been to marinas and town docks that have explicitly stated there is no trash facilities. Therefore, I either find some permission ashore somewhere, or I store it to the next anchorage. Pretty simple.

Often, it's clear (small island) that trash removal is a real problem for them and they can't handle the added load. I highly suspect, in other cases, our cruising brethren have ruined it for the rest of us.

p.s. The government can't pay for anything whatsoever, they don't make any money. The rest of us pay for whatever they provide. There are good reasons for doing so, but I'll bet those that live ashore aren't so interested in underwriting our cost of trash removal.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

outbound said:


> ....
> I get a fair amount of stuff through the internet. It's amazing how much wasteful packaging it comes in.


Received a package from amazon yesterday, the size of a midsize car glovebox.
Inside was the phone battery id orderee, the size of a saltine cracker...


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Although a lot of packaging is paper... it still is often burned. And if so that's not a great idea. Would be smart if packaging could be recycled.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

If technology could be developed to virtually eliminate toxic emissions from burning waste, I think it could be a very good solution. It is essentially recycling in the form of using waste to create energy. Some plants make heat, others make electricity (essentially from heat). Based on our ability to create waste, it's practically indefinitely sustainable. 

The present problem with trying to recycle waste back into consumer products is the math doesn't work and/or we don't have the need for as much source material. Now that China won't take it, we're all backed up.

I say invent a way to capture the emissions and burn it all.


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## makobuilders (Feb 7, 2014)

SanderO said:


> Although a lot of packaging is paper... it still is often burned. And if so that's not a great idea. Would be smart if packaging could be recycled.


Too bad it's impractical to fit an incinerator on a small boat like they have on ships. Perhaps a wood burning stove in the salon could serve double duty for burning paper, wood, etc.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

Minnewaska said:


> Are you claiming you're entitled to use whatever you want of theirs? You got that look because you were doing something you did not have permission to do, but may have received permission, if you had asked.


Man the ladder you must be using to get on your horse must be tall. Try for once to get a grip!

I got "that look" because the old lady shopper that gave it to me probably thinks everyone not driving a BMW is scum.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

Until recently the city of St. Paul didn’t have municipal trash pickup. Each homeowner had to contract their own, which meant that in some parts of the city there were as many as six different trash haulers. Instead of one truck a week coming down the alley, sometimes you’d have several trucks in the same day. It was inefficient and stupid.

They finally switched to a municipal system where the city contracts one hauler per area and you pay the fee on your water bill. It’s simpler, costs are lower, and there’s less heavy vehicle traffic which means less noise and less alley repair.


But wow did some people get mad. People wrote furious letters to the editor complaining that they make very little trash and just take a bag to the store once a week, so they didn’t see why they should have to pay.

Such cognitive dissonance. They recognize that trash removal costs money; that’s what they’re complaining about. Yet they feel that a store should provide that service to them for free.


In the case of this Publix, I’m sure they’re more than happy to provide trash as a loss leader for your grocery business. You’re not taking up a parking space, and their parking lot probably costs more to maintain than their trash service.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

To sum up;
A sailor got the stink eye while dropping a bag of trash in a trash receptacle in a Publix Supermarket.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

Don0190 said:


> Went ashore the other day to go to grocery store. Had on clean shirt, shorts, and sandals. We had our backpack and rolly cart along with a small bag of trash to toss in the trash can at the store. As I was putting the bag of trash in the can this older woman came out of the store and gave us a look of "I hate you homeless boat people scum!"
> 
> I'm trying to figure out how she could tell.


Don, she looked at you but didn't say anything? Seriously?

Maybe she's just a grumpy person. Why would you give it more than a passing thought?

You're out sailing, enjoy the life with all its good and occasionally bad times. If in doubt pour another rum drink.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Good advise...


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

You know

I just thought it would an amusing fun story

But nooooooooooo


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Don0190 said:


> ....Bet it hasn't ever occurred to you that Publix has already given permission for the cruisers to use the trash cans.


Of course, it hasn't. When I first mentioned putting trash where you didn't have permission, you responded by announcing how much money you and other cruisers spend there. You did not say you had permission.

If you did, I was wrong. However, if you didn't, it's the sort of thing that make the entire cruising community suffer a bit, as landlubbers like to bunch us all into the worst experience they have, with any one of us.



> I will admit I made a big mistake a few weeks ago concerning you and will now correct that error.


Care to clarify?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

There was an interesting article on the topic of garbage in yesterday's NYT. I bet we can all recall throwing something out that we no longer has a use for, but was fine and had no where else to send it. It isn't really trash at all, it's just stuff we no longer want or need. That clearly needs a better solution.

My wife brings all of our used clothing to the local thrift store. However, they sell very little of it. They simply get paid to have it chopped up into recyclable fibers, an industry I'm told is riddle with corruption. There has to be a better way. They also have standards that are hard to meet in some cases. If something works, but has a clear broken aesthetic piece, they won't take it. Someone might be happy to have it, but it ends up in the trash.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/07/...isco-zuckerberg.html?utm_source=pocket-newtab


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

I’m the poor relation in some places we cruise, and the rich phuck in others. I’ve learned there is absolutely no correlation between appearance or behavior and net worth. Before leaving this year had a genset installed at Hinckley yard. Next door neighbor on a NEB jewel was changing fluids. Thought he was a yard worker until I watched him get into his Cornishe. My crew was driving me nuts waiting to leave so the next day asked him about his car just to chat with someone else. We talked a bit and he related his belief the neighbor on the other side of the finger pier was opening the head through hulls at night. That boat was 55’ Z lander. I saw the lady on her dressed with more jewelry than seen in most jewelry stores. The man in Musto and HH head to foot. The captain with the boat name on his shirt. Said hi when I saw them but blown off every time. Truly boorish behavior.
So Don what do you do when confronted with boors? Let them rain on your parade? Or embarrass them when they act in a egocentric deleterious way then move on? 
When there was a moment the owners and captain were on deck together I walked over. Told them “pretty boat too bad it smells like ****e”. Told the NEB owner of the interaction. He laughed and laughed. Every time he walked past that boat he exclaimed about the smell (there was none of course) and held his nose if there was someone on deck.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Childish... ignore people who are not bothering you...


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## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

outbound said:


> We talked a bit and he related his belief the neighbor on the other side of the finger pier was opening the head through hulls at night.
> 
> .............
> 
> When there was a moment the owners and captain were on deck together I walked over. Told them "pretty boat too bad it smells like ****e".


Hey outbound, you seem like a really reasonable guy in all the stuff you write here on sailnet, so I'm assuming that this interaction had some nuances that didn't come across well in writing. Because, frankly, telling a stranger out of the blue that their boat smells like $hit (when it doesn't) based on the "belief" of some other guy, and some observations about jewelry and clothing, does not sound like a very reasonable way to interact with others.

In any event, it really doesn't matter, I'm sure you knew what you were doing and feel ok about it.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Yup a lot more to the story. Fair amount of evidence like very foul smell for 10-15m every night we were there. Occasional trash in water near their boat seen when first up on deck. Real snotty attitude. Water hose left across pier needed to be moved repetitively to roll things across such as the genset and food and water. In short very wealthy dirtballs. True low flyers.


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## jtsailjt (Aug 1, 2013)

outbound said:


> Yup a lot more to the story. Fair amount of evidence like very foul smell for 10-15m every night we were there. Occasional trash in water near their boat seen when first up on deck. Real snotty attitude. Water hose left across pier needed to be moved repetitively to roll things across such as the genset and food and water. In short very wealthy dirtballs. True low flyers.


If I were smelling that for 10 or 15 minutes I think that the next night when I got the first nasty whiff of it, right then I'd take a stroll down the dock and see where it was coming from. IF indeed it seemed to be coming from that boat I'd knock on the hull until someone responded and ask in a fairly loud voice that "there's a really nasty smell out here and I'm trying to figure out where it's coming from so would you please check and see if it could be coming from your boat?" That way, with the stink still in the air there's no way for them to deny it exists and I haven't directly accused them of anything but they know for sure that I know and hopefully will worry enough about me ratting them out so they'll stop doing it.

But.... last summer I was tied up in a slip and noticed a few people from down the dock talking outside my boat so I went topside to see what was going on. They were looking at a sheen on the water indicating something petroleum based and it started at my boat and extended downcurrent for several boat lengths along the dock. I'm sure they thought I'd been dumping fuel overboard or had spilled some but I hadn't. I hadn't fueled up that day or changed my oil that day and had been down below for quite awhile and there was no sign of fuel or oil in my bilge that could have been automatically pumped overboard or coming from my tank vents. I have no idea where the oily sheen came from but I'm pretty sure that most of the other boaters thought it came from my boat since it seemed to start right beside it and there was no oily sheen in the slip just upcurrent from my boat. Maybe it did come from my boat but it's still a mystery to me from where or how.

So, unless I have real proof as to the source of a leak of any kind, I will be careful to make any comments regarding it be in the form of a question. Sometimes it's really not as clear as it seems and if you directly ask a question the apparently "offending party" may also become curious and join you in trying to search out the answer, or if they've been doing it deliberately you've let them know that they're busted without having a confrontation.


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## makobuilders (Feb 7, 2014)

Minnesail said:


> Just off downtown we have the Hennepin Energy Recovery Center, or the garbage burner as it's called. It turns garbage into electricity and the waste heat...
> 
> It's very clean. It has always beat its emissions targets.


30+years ago when I was a high school geek in the engineering club (yes my kids still tease me about that) we visited a similar plant in Tamba Bay. It was truly amazing. They even pull all the ash particles from the exhaust using electrostatic plates.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

Well I’m now in Boot Key on a mooring. Boat scum has a completely different meaning here that in Palm Beach.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Don0190 said:


> Well I'm now in Boot Key on a mooring. Boat scum has a completely different meaning here that in Palm Beach.


Plastic scraper


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## cthoops (Apr 30, 2012)

Don0190 said:


> You know
> 
> I just thought it would an amusing fun story
> 
> But nooooooooooo


It's funny, I was just thinking the same thing when I read your post above.

Geez, people. He was telling a funny story! Boating season in the cold weather climates can't come quickly enough.

Don, if you're talking about the Publix near the North Lake Worth anchorage, Mr. cthoops and I were wishing there was better trash disposal there. A cardboard recycle would be nice too.

The anchorage has many boaters who provision before jumping off to the Bahamas. It's not a stretch to say that a substantial amount of money is being spent by cruisers at that Publix. While the uppity woman gave you the stink eye about it, I'm sure Publix is more than happy to take your many hundreds of dollars in exchange for your one bag of trash.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

Don0190 said:


> You know
> 
> I just thought it would an amusing fun story
> 
> But nooooooooooo


Don I couldn't stop laughing when I read this !

You have visited Sailnet before right??? :grin

BTW, welcome to Marathon !

If I can make a suggestion dinghy over to Burdines for dinner. I swear they sprinkle crack on the fries (they're that good) and try the deep fried key lime pie -- I know I thought the same thing until the wife talked me into it -- it's just that good. :wink


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

I’ve been here before but haven’t tried the fried pie. I’m closer to burdines than my last visit here and will consider dinghying over to try it. I am concerned that fried pie sends me down a whole new hell hole of scum level.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Yeah the fries are a complete meal.
Ketchup is in squirt bottles so you can write your name...like you do in snow...but in red.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

RegisteredUser said:


> Yeah the fries are a complete meal.
> Ketchup is in squirt bottles so you can write your name...like you do in snow...but in red.


If you write your name in the snow and it's red you need to see a doctor immediately.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

Minnesail said:


> If you write your name in the snow and it's red you need to see a doctor immediately.


But if you write your name in the snow with red pee in the Florida Keys you will need much bigger help.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Thanks. I already have an appt with the VA....early june.

Most people there wear clean t shirts so dress up...dont be boat scum


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

whoa.....

The original post.. I saw this was active and before looking at it I thought... 'you know that woman who was snotty... who was she? was she the owner of the store, was she just a customer....? heck was she had anything to do with anything ---> that is we all know people who want to be _xxx_ police, be it the unofficial town police or unofficial internet police'

Which to say it is still a funny story regardless, but maybe not much stock should be put into what some random person or just one person deciding who is the scum.

Add to it who knows what is going on with that person, like did her son just drown and no boat scum save him... maybe she didn't know you were a sailboat guy and thought you were a power boat guy (the real boat scum--- j/k)

I have to wonder about that with people on threads who end up getting into arguments --- which I have had happen to me and maybe even caused... I never think.. who are they... or I wonder what has upset them in their life... or can't a thought be expressed without a war breaking out (from either side)

Or.. I was surprised that somehow this anecdote about sailing triggered some friction... :captain:


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

Don0190 said:


> I've been here before but haven't tried the fried pie. I'm closer to burdines than my last visit here and will consider dinghying over to try it. I am concerned that fried pie sends me down a whole new hell hole of scum level.


Don, if that deep fried key lime pie sends you on some kind of a moral death spiral at least you'll go with a smile. A really big smile :grin

Remember in the Keys the difference between boat scum and the millionaires is you showered today and put on a clean shirt. We all look pretty much the same here :wink

And order an extra fries to go. They're great heated up with some eggs the next morning.


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## paulk (Jun 2, 2000)

Boat scum? https://www.sailnet.com/forums/general-discussion-sailing-related/329168-beating-bad.html

or here?
https://www.sailnet.com/forums/vessels-lost-missing-danger/329176-stolen-vessel.html#post2051595676

They're out there!


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

I just spent some time getting an early jump on summer staying on land in Key West and on Stock Island. There and on the drive up the Keys I noticed quite a few boats anchored in places like Cow Key Channel and elsewhere up the Keys. The Boats have also returned in the anchorage on the west side of Wysteria and Sunset Island. The last hurricane wiped a lot of these boats and many of those I saw looked like they could not go anywhere if they tried. After cleaning up hundreds if not thousands of boats after the last Hurricane I can understand why the authorities are not happy of a repeat of that event.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

I've been going down to the Keys pretty often since the 1980's when I bought my timeshare. The situation regarding less than sea worthy boats looks much worse than before IRMA IMO. I also noticed them located beyond Key West northward this year and certainly noticed an increase around Key West this year compared to last year. I guess IRMA helped clear a lot of the boats out which are now coming back. At the Stock Island Marina I found out a 35 foot (minimum) slip is $1000 a month. Which seems like pretty good deal for a modern marina in that location. Sailor I spoke with that includes pump out by marina staff every week at your slip. Plus pool, showers and laundry facilities. Might even be able to use the hourly Hotel shuttle bus into town. Sounds like a much better deal than anchoring out and worrying about if you dingy will get stolen making you late for work.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Controlling dinghy/shore access is a key.
KW has a similar muni program as marathon. 345 month mooring and 245 anchor gets dinghy landing shower trash wifi and weekly pumpout.
Iirc there is a 3rd muni marina somewhere else on same program...
So service workers can do the boat thing and actually get ahead...if they dont drunk it or put it up their nose....

The 'live to be free and weird' bunch..i am not referring to. Boat gig makes easy sense for many workers...so make it easy for them to get on the program.
Make it hard...then spend more in LE and etc...


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## cdy (Nov 10, 2013)

I had a Pearson 26 moored in Cocoa for 2 years - there were 20 boats on the west side of the intracoastal before Irma - 4 after, however over the last 2 years - the anchorage has filled up again - only a handful of boats get used - a few are livaboards that nver sail - others are just using it to park their boat for free - which is fine if they are in decent shape - but what I have found their are a number of owners without 2 nickles to rub together - they pick these boats up for free or for very little - wit the intent to fix them up and sail away or flip them - but reality sets in - very hard to work on a boat when on a mooring - they put a little effort into it at first then the boats just sits - they can't afford to fix it , and no one will give them anything for it - eventually the next hurricane or strong storm drives it ashore - they have no money for removal - county drags it out and takes it to dump and the whole process starts over


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

There is a certain romantic notion about the guy living on a sailboat with no rudder or mast who spends his time hanging out in some little dockside bar chatting up the tourists.

Here's the reality, there is a mate on a fishing boat who's living on a derelict sailboat behind our property, complete with the spray painted symbols on the hull from the first responders who went through Boot Key Harbor after Irma. The rumor is he bought the boat salvage after the storm as a temporary solution because his trailer was trashed. After two years I don't think it's temporary anymore.

He's anchored in a restricted, no-anchor zone because it's close to the boat he works on. I don't think the boat has ever moved and as far as I know there is no pumpout boat that comes in here (at least no one has ever seen one).

Now the mangroves behind my place are full of fish and lobster. Are they safe to eat or contaminated by raw sewage? Is it safe to swim off my dock? My guess is the answer is no. 

This isn't a "boat bum" conversation anymore, it's a sanitary conversation.

And what happens if this uninsured derelict drags anchor into someone's dock or boat during the next storm?


The real cost of housing, and how some people got into their current situation is a LONG and often contentious conversation with many layers that people on both sides want to over simplify.

Requiring boaters to meet safety, sanitary and anchoring standards - well that IS a simple conversation.


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## cdy (Nov 10, 2013)

Most of the ones living on their sailboats ( some without masts) weren't at the tiki bar at happy hour -they were in the park drinking out of bottles inside paper bags - not a romantic sight. There was a small group living on a dilapidated steel boat that somehow was floating - they hung out by the boat ramp - overheard a couple of conversations - each time involved someone getting out( of jail I assumed) or someone missing their parole appointment. ( made mental note to always lock truck door)


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

cdy said:


> Most of the ones living on their sailboats ( some without masts) weren't at the tiki bar at happy hour -they were in the park drinking out of bottles inside paper bags - not a romantic sight. There was a small group living on a dilapidated steel boat that somehow was floating - they hung out by the boat ramp - overheard a couple of conversations - each time involved someone getting out( of jail I assumed) or someone missing their parole appointment. ( made mental note to always lock truck door)


In my experience that's a pretty accurate description of the derelict crowd.

The flip side is my wife works with someone who lives on a nice trawler in Boot Key Harbor. Good folks, sound boat, no problem.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

You moved to escapeville.
This is not new.
Now youre pissed.
I also understand your frustration.

Id work hard to keep the lobster infestation under control


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

RegisteredUser said:


> You moved to escapeville.
> This is not new.
> Now youre pissed.
> I also understand your frustration.


Well this "gentleman" showed up after we moved here. A lot of things washed up with hurricane Irma, most days you roll with it. Other days it's frustrating how long it's taking to get back to normal. A lot of it - including the policing of derelict boats - is going at a crawl because FEMA money has been held up in Washington.

Don't get me wrong, we love living here.



RegisteredUser said:


> Id work hard to keep the lobster infestation under control


We're working hard at keeping ALL the seafood down here under control. We keep the grill busy.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Would think to have government board each boat. If not to some pre established standard for human occupancy condemn it just like you would do with a house. Use it to create artificial breakwater, reef, road base or other reasonable use. 
Homelessness is a huge problem. Homeless people are not bad, evil or other derogatory term. Some have substance abuse disorder, some have mental health issues, some are truly the result of occurrences not under their control. That is a separate problem from the destruction of the environment. Both need to be dealt with concurrently but they are separate issues.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

Had a Sailnet member boat scum stop by my boat this morning and tell me how they had planned to steal my dinghy last night, but then I brought it up onto the davits :devil


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

All i can say is that you married up...

If not for your "we dont call 911" decal....that dinghy wouldve been mine


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

RegisteredUser said:


> All i can say is that you married up...
> QUOTE]
> 
> Of course! It's stupid to marry into scum lower than yourself. That would you a trailer person.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

boy has this thread changed subject


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

I split the thread to get the Climate Change stuff into its own thread. 
Its here: https://www.sailnet.com/forums/off-topic/329394-climate-change-boat-people-scum-but-morphed.html

I also deleted some posts that had nothing to do with either by would distract.

I also deleted some gratuitous insults - really, do I need to change your diapers too!?

In general: The Mods have been busy and I was in Africa. 
When a thread is started by a senior member and it rolls along with senior members contributing its not the type of thread that Mods are going to watch too carefully if we're busy.

*So if a thread needs some fixing can you PLEASE hit the little triangle in the bottom of each post and make the suggestion, particularly if you are the OP.*

The little Triangle thing sends an immediate message to all the moderators and whoever is around can come an assist

Finally, have a look at your post count... if you have made it to 500 posts its kinda expected for you to help us out when theres a problem 

Mark


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## ScottUK (Aug 16, 2009)

My wife and I recently went into a police station and asked if we could toss our 2 pint cans of beer we were just finishing into their bin. No problems. I believe the reception would have been different had I asked an officer in the States. 

C'est la vie!


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

ScottUK said:


> My wife and I recently went into a police station and asked if we could toss our 2 pint cans of beer we were just finishing into their bin. No problems. I believe the reception would have been different had I asked an officer in the States.
> 
> C'est la vie!


was it craft beer?


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## ScottUK (Aug 16, 2009)

titustiger27 said:


> was it craft beer?


Sorry, no. I'm too cheap.


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

ScottUK said:


> Sorry, no. I'm too cheap.


some would say 'cheap' others would say boat scum


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## gulfsail (Feb 22, 2013)

john61ct said:


> Such conflicts are simply prevented by the service being provided to boaters by the government. If some mechanism can provide for some level of "fair" user-pays, great, but if not, should not mean government creating such issues by just abandoning its responsibilities.


In that case, it would seem like boaters should pay for it via something like a cruising tax. Much like homeowners pay property tax, and have their refuse collected. If someone uses the refuse collection that someone else is paying for, is that not an imposition of sorts? The problem, really, is that sometimes there is simply no other option, and not many of us think of garbage disposal as something we should have to pay for.

Another option would be that part of the price you pay for a product should be a tax that covers disposal of that item. Pre-paid, as it were. Then you are simply returning the packaging in a way you've already paid for.

Yet another option would be to tax industry based on how disposable their packaging is. I have noticed that some vendor-packaging is significantly stupid, as it's designed in such a way that efficient recycling is impossible.


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

gulfsail said:


> In that case, it would seem like boaters should pay for it via something like a cruising tax. Much like homeowners pay property tax, and have their refuse collected. If someone uses the refuse collection that someone else is paying for, is that not an imposition of sorts? The problem, really, is that sometimes there is simply no other option, and not many of us think of garbage disposal as something we should have to pay for.
> 
> Another option would be that part of the price you pay for a product should be a tax that covers disposal of that item. Pre-paid, as it were. Then you are simply returning the packaging in a way you've already paid for.
> 
> Yet another option would be to tax industry based on how disposable their packaging is. I have noticed that some vendor-packaging is significantly stupid, as it's designed in such a way that efficient recycling is impossible.


I think before you answer the question, one has to decide

do you want boat scum coming to your area?

I live in the Adirondacks and was talking to a tourism woman and she made an interesting point.

"at our docks, trailheads ... we have signs, pack it in, pack it out, but do we expect them to pack it alway way back to New Jersey?"

She said that because at all the boat launches and trailheads there were no trash receptacles. Part of that the most of the towns in the area had just stopped trash pick up and they didn't want the local (boat scum) to use public trash cans for personal use.

Indirectly she was saying, should we make trash disposal available if we want people to come here?

Much of that trash (trail snacks and beverages) may have been purchased in New Jersey... but some was purchased locally, but either way... it was sending a message: "we don't want your business here."

To some extent, boat scum aside, when I go to New Jersey I hope there is a place to put my trash, especially if I created it and likely bought it in New Jersey, but even if I did not.

In the next 25 years, we have gone from no public garbage cans to many around the area. Much of that is because we are a tourist destination and we want people to feel welcomed. Not just with a place to put their trash, but if you don't have trash cans, many people will just liter.

I wonder if the boat scum lady would be any less upset if the garbage was just tossed somewhere, like her yard.


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## gulfsail (Feb 22, 2013)

titustiger27 said:


> I think before you answer the question, one has to decide
> 
> do you want boat scum coming to your area?
> 
> ...


I think most people think of boaters as not really bringing all that much money into their area.

And the fact that people might mention that an alternative is throwing garbage into someone's yard may be part of the reason why. Landlubbers are going to be landlubbers. They're not seeing it from a boater's perspective. You're right, of course, that if a locality doesn't provide a useful alternative, such as garbage disposal near a marina or dinghy dock, they're presenting boaters with bad options. Boaters then look even worse.

Buying groceries in an area probably isn't enough value added for most people to think of boating as "income producing". A lot of people, right or wrong, think of boating as a cheaper alternative to land-based housing near the water.

In the Adirondacks, sure, hikers are big business. Most coastal areas make a LOT more money if you drive there, stay in hotels, and eat in restaurants.


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

gulfsail said:


> I think most people think of boaters as not really bringing all that much money into their area.
> 
> And the fact that people might mention that an alternative is throwing garbage into someone's yard may be part of the reason why. Landlubbers are going to be landlubbers. They're not seeing it from a boater's perspective. You're right, of course, that if a locality doesn't provide a useful alternative, such as garbage disposal near a marina or dinghy dock, they're presenting boaters with bad options. Boaters then look even worse.
> 
> ...


I would guess that many of the hikers here do NOT bring much money to the area... there are the young hikers who probably spend a week in the woods and maybe eat at a restaurant when they get out and there are the busloads of hikers (often from Canada) who drop at a trailhead, climb and then head home.

but if they leave garbage laying around, then the families of four who do spend money in the area won't find the place very welcoming. And you can't really say one can't come and the others can.

My guess it would be similar with cruising sailors, most who only go to the grocery store, maybe buy some fuel, but don't eat or drink out. Then there are the others who spend lots of money, but if you chase away one, you kind of chase away both.

I agree with you about where the money comes from, but you just don't want to start chasing people away... though some think it is okay (when I first moved here, convenience stores sold little cards that said: "tourist hunting license"), I am not sure the visitors to the area found it as funny as the cashier at the store.

I don't know what most thought in the original post, but my first thought was: "doesn't sound like a great place to visit." by land or sea.

In the Adks there is a discussion going on is the place welcoming to people of color. I think for the most part it is, but if you go visit a place and there is one truck driving around (or window) with a confederate flag... you wouldn't agree with that.

Discussion on the public radio facebook site is not especially good... there are people saying there are racists (and there are) and then the racists are saying, we aren't that racist.

If you looked at that conversation, you might question a visit regardless of your color.

How many places are prosperous enough they can say no to boat scum?


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

titustiger27 said:


> Indirectly she was saying, should we make trash disposal available if we want people to come here?
> 
> For the most part 100% of the money I spend is in the local community that I happen to be at.
> 
> ...


Some one also mentioned that people don't see boaters as contributors to the community, only as people "taking". Yet I'm spending my money everywhere I go and not using any other "service" other that common user things like the trash/roads. I'm not using schools or any other services, but still the local community gets the the indirect money I spend from the businesses etc. I spend them at while there in the form of the local taxes of the businesses I supported while there.

In this case, Publix grocery store, is getting $300k plus of business from cruisers. I'm not even expecting services from the local community, all I'm expecting is that Publix accepts (and they do) my common household type of trash.

Yet the old lady shopper looked at me in my nice clean clothes that looked the same as everyone else there as scum, just because I put a small of trash INTO THE TRASH CAN!


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## john61ct (Jan 23, 2017)

That whole neoliberal "user pays" ideology is BS

Just try to make the tax burden fair across the population

and provide the obviously justified public services across the board as efficiently as possible.

I mean, all the sparsely populated States are deeply subsidized by the 82% of the US population that live in urban areas.

So what, who cares?

And the huge boondoggles that go to corporate welfare, giveaways to the rich and war-mongering!

Why even waste time talking about rubbish removal from areas used by the public? 

Sheesh. . .


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## john61ct (Jan 23, 2017)

Don0190 said:


> the old lady shopper looked at me in my nice clean clothes that looked the same as everyone else there as scum


I reckon she just had a bit of gas at the time. 

seriously let it go dude


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## gulfsail (Feb 22, 2013)

john61ct said:


> That whole neoliberal "user pays" ideology is BS
> 
> Just try to make the tax burden fair across the population
> 
> ...


The dumpsters at a supermarket aren't public.

And most of what you're bringing up is a) political, and b) not relevant.


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## gulfsail (Feb 22, 2013)

Don0190 said:


> In this case, Publix grocery store, is getting $300k plus of business from cruisers. I'm not even expecting services from the local community, all I'm expecting is that Publix accepts (and they do) my common household type of trash.


I believe you're overestimating the value of $300K of groceries to the local community.

Supermarket profit is about 1%. So if your estimate is correct, you're talking about $3,000 profit there. Doesn't leave a whole lot to set up a public cruiser services branch. Many businesses frown on the public using their dumpsters, mostly because the public (not talking about cruisers here) has a tendency to abuse the privilege.

I mean, I get what you're saying. The lady eyeballing you is clearly wrong for doing so. But people here may have a tendency to overestimate the value cruisers bring to all but brokerages, marinas and the local West Marine.

What bugs me more than that, even, is when marinas look at cruisers in older boats as if they're not the kind of clientele they're looking for.


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

Don0190 said:


> Some one also mentioned that people don't see boaters as contributors to the community, only as people "taking". Yet I'm spending my money everywhere I go and not using any other "service" other that common user things like the trash/roads. I'm not using schools or any other services, but still the local community gets the the indirect money I spend from the businesses etc. I spend them at while there in the form of the local taxes of the businesses I supported while there.
> 
> In this case, Publix grocery store, is getting $300k plus of business from cruisers. I'm not even expecting services from the local community, all I'm expecting is that Publix accepts (and they do) my common household type of trash.
> 
> Yet the old lady shopper looked at me in my nice clean clothes that looked the same as everyone else there as scum, just because I put a small of trash INTO THE TRASH CAN!


you need to pause after: "...people don't see boaters as contributors to the community, only as people "taking".

beause regardless of how much *you* spend, if she sees you as a 'boater' she doesn't see you as an individual. you are just part of a group that she stereotypes into a taker. Like many stereotypes, there might be a bit of truth to the thought or was at one time, but most people who stereotype are not into much nuance.

A lot of people who have made up their mind, are not going to let facts change what they believe.

You might spend $500 a week and have donated $4,000 to the local little league... taking advantage of the garbage can makes you a bad person...

....just as you might have a home somewhere or even in that community, she thinks if you live on a boat you are homeless, she probably didn't want to discuss if your boat was a home or not.

I have this kind of thing happen to me all the time, judging me about things they should be judging their self on. What I really find funny is often these people are making decisions (and comments) about things that are not theirs to make. Like that store might WANT you to put your garage in their receptacle because they have found that boaters are 40% of there business.

I do know I am guilty of what you have done... even if I was at a fast food restaurant and putting the trash that was the containers for the food I bought there, I will add something to the mix.

I think part of the problem it is so hard to make a sign that says:

"you can only use our trashbin if you are shopping here regularly and spending more than $27 a week, if you are not a regular shopper, but you are only putting the trash in the garbage can that was recently purchased here, that is okay, but only that trash, not a cup you bought at starbucks"


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

At the risk of taking this thread a little off topic (again)

Do you think sailors litter more or less than non-sailors

I am not much of a litter, just in general, but after seeing many sailing videos and how much litter is in the ocean (not to mention any other sources where you find out about 'islands of plastic') I just can't feel the freedom to litter (I am the person who goes for a walk and takes a bag, so i can make my walk cleaner than I found it)

I do know in the sailing vidoes no one straight out says, I threw my oil change in the ocean. i did see some videos where people made comments that they thought throwing their cans in the ocean was okay... Which I am not sure how I feel about that.. I also have a feeling no one thinks of flushing their toliet in the ocean is litter (when I swim in the lake near me, I think the same about peeing)


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## gulfsail (Feb 22, 2013)

titustiger27 said:


> At the risk of taking this thread a little off topic (again)
> 
> Do you think sailors litter more or less than non-sailors


If I had to guess, I'd say that sailors are probably generally more educated, more in tune with the environment, and less apt to litter. At least I'd like to think so.

Even this discussion is about using a dumpster, not littering.


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## makobuilders (Feb 7, 2014)

gulfsail said:


> ... that if a locality doesn't provide a useful alternative, such as garbage disposal near a marina or dinghy dock, they're presenting boaters with bad options.


Garbage disposal is not something that most cruisers think about when planning either cruises or a new boat. My former big boat had a trash compactor and a dishwasher onboard. Never used the washer (still don't in my home either), but I have to admit that the compactor was really useful and practical.

It was difficult to find the heavy duty paper bags (nowadays you'd order on Amazon) so I used regular plastic trash bags. That worked out so-so as far as ripping goes.

The point is that it is much easier to dispose of a dense, compact rectangular trash than a giant garden bag loosely stuffed with paper, plastic and tin cans.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

makobuilders said:


> The point is that it is much easier to dispose of a dense, compact rectangular trash than a giant garden bag loosely stuffed with paper, plastic and tin cans.


I try and use items twice before they are put in the garbage. Cans are left on the counter to be stuffed with vegetable scraps, wrapping, used paper towels etc... only when they are full do they get transferred to a plastic garbage bag which was previously used to carry groceries. When that is full it gets transferred to a larger trash bag. I can go quite a long time before I need to dump the trash using this method.

For the Seltzer and Soda cans I drink. They go in a separate bag that I will take back for the 5 cent deposit on them. I try to never throw away money.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

There needs to be more vigorous recycling type trash containers... so you separate you trash and place it in the appropriate container. Some municipalities have two types trash cans - trash and recycle (for plastic and cans) some offer three... trash, plastic and metal.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

titustiger27 said:


> ....Do you think sailors litter more or less than non-sailors...


I'd be willing to bet sailors litter less than average.

However, the average litter is a coffee cup, beer can, wrapper, cigarette butt, or other sundry junk that was intentionally or unintentionally discarded. Cruisers are trying to dispose of a weeks worth of household garbage. Publicly available containers are most often established to capture the sundry trash or trash remaining from a single meal, not bags worth. I've routinely seen containers, typically near dinghy docks, overly piled with kitchen garbage bags, which I think is just as poor as tossing a single can on the ground. When the container was not designed for household garbage, one is just taking advantage, by forcing another to clean it up. Same as using any receptacle that one does not have permission to use. You can't rationalize an entitlement.

The best programs are those that either ask for a fee to dispose of a bag of garbage or charge a small landing fee for everyone that comes to shore. These are then used to provide services to the marine community, such as the docks themselves, trash containers, water, whatever. I gladly pay a few dollars to dispose of a bag of garbage.

Like I've said, I've asked permission to use trash containers and almost never been turned down. There is a marina we go to on an island that specifies they do not take trash. They make this clear. It's extremely expensive and this island requires extreme segregation (glass, plastic, food, paper, non-food, hazardous). They don't take it, because there is not container for general garbage and no boat does this much separation. I asked if could just pick out my large containers, separate them and use their containers once. They agreed to once, just for those bulky items. If they saw a transient using the containers without permission, presumably rationalizing that they paid for their slip and despite the prohibition, they'd be evicted and banned. Rightfully so.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

titustiger27 said:


> if she sees you as a 'boater' she doesn't see you as an individual


I don't really believe she had any idea I was a boater and only wrote that as fun. I am pretty sure she saw me as just scum in general for whatever reason. I may have sucked in some of HER air. Maybe she was just a snobby old b*tch of a women pissed off that SHE had to go to the store herself because it was the helps day off.

But for the most part all the fun I intended for the thread has gone into the trash and SNers are making feel like scum. So I think I'll just stop playing on the subject. :crying

Since I started this thread from Palm Beach I've spent time in the mooring field in Boot Key and now am in the mooring field at Ft Myers Beach and am getting back into touch with my "people". At least the people of Ft Myers Beach understand that visiting scum is important to their economy. :wink


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

Minnewaska said:


> I'd be willing to bet sailors litter less than average.
> 
> However, the average litter is a coffee cup, beer can, wrapper, cigarette butt, or other sundry junk that was intentionally or unintentionally discarded. Cruisers are trying to dispose of a weeks worth of household garbage. Publicly available containers are most often established to capture the sundry trash or trash remaining from a single meal, not bags worth. I've routinely seen containers, typically near dinghy docks, overly piled with kitchen garbage bags, which I think is just as poor as tossing a single can on the ground. When the container was not designed for household garbage, one is just taking advantage, by forcing another to clean it up. Same as using any receptacle that one does not have permission to use. You can't rationalize an entitlement.
> 
> ...


I assume they don't, but I think that might be an easy implication.

I hike and bike in the woods and through work do a road clean up. This is an opinion based on observation, not hard data, but I have a sense that the slower you go, the less you are likely to litter.

I noticed that when there is a bike race or running, the competitors leave lots of things in their path (gu wrapers, water bottles, etc.) more so then if they were on a more casual ride and I think walkers leave even less.

My thought is, if you are walking you will see garbage, where if you are driving a car, not so much.

Since sailing is a relatively slow mode of transportation, less garbage.

I definitely believe if you ask someone they are more likely to say yes, especially if you are holding up a small bag. I doubt they would be as agreeable if you were backing up a pickup truck.


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

Don0190 said:


> I don't really believe she had any idea I was a boater and only wrote that as fun. I am pretty sure she saw me as just scum in general for whatever reason. I may have sucked in some of HER air. Maybe she was just a snobby old b*tch of a women pissed off that SHE had to go to the store herself because it was the helps day off.
> 
> But for the most part all the fun I intended for the thread has gone into the trash and SNers are making feel like scum. So I think I'll just stop playing on the subject. :crying
> 
> Since I started this thread from Palm Beach I've spent time in the mooring field in Boot Key and now am in the mooring field at Ft Myers Beach and am getting back into touch with my "people". At least the people of Ft Myers Beach understand that visiting scum is important to their economy. :wink


Kind of changes the point of the story to me

Still funny

just now it isn't aimed at a certain group.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

Don0190 said:


> Since I started this thread from Palm Beach I've spent time in the mooring field in Boot Key and now am in the mooring field at Ft Myers Beach and am getting back into touch with my "people". At least the people of Ft Myers Beach understand that visiting scum is important to their economy. :wink


Well thread drift or not I hope you enjoyed your time in Marathon.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Talked with a local about this. In this region until two generations ago pretty much everything you threw away was an organic product and rotted rapidly. Non issue. Population density was so low that sewage pollution was not an issue. Even with land livers dumping their sewage into the bays. In the absence of an economic incentive it’s hard to change the population’s behavior. St. Vincent, Bequia and other places have signs and posters to encourage the change but with limited results. In Chatham got friendly with a Rasta. He told me if you gave garbage bag to a local even if you had paid a few bucks it would end up in the woods. When hiking about saw the truth of this. We kept our garbage through the SVG but found a dumpster in Carriacou where we dumped it. Expect it will be burned as is common throughout the eastern Caribbean.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

JimMcGee said:


> Well thread drift or not I hope you enjoyed your time in Marathon.


I did, more than the last time I as there because I didn't feel trapped due waiting for boat parts to show up.


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## Whalerus (Apr 24, 2019)

taking back what i said


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

Been here in the mooring field at Fort Myers Beach FL for 6 days now. This place has a whole different "boat people scum" feel to it. The "season" ends today and there are less "tournist people scum" around that the locals depend on. Thinking I'll stay an extra week and watch how it all plays out.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

The season ending didn't seem to change the Fort Myers Beach boat scum. In truth I barely even saw the liveaboards there. Other than the same dinghies always being at the dinghy dock, but at a different spot, I probably would hardy have known they were there.

Now I'm anchored at Punta Gorda, Fl and the boat scum here are different. They are mostly the power boaters blasting by me at anchor and rocking the crap out of me. But other boat scum must exist as I saw the police boat come out yesterday to check and take notes on 2 boats here on anchor. He didn't come check me as I dinghied in or even circle my boat or others.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

So you skipped Naples and Marco Island?


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

...MoNey.....


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Marco's cheap. Just drag your boat up on the beach and set up a tent on Dickman's. Nobody will bug you


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

eherlihy said:


> So you skipped Naples and Marco Island?


Yes, been to Naples on land and it wasn't anything to see a second time IMO. Near as I could tell marco had nothing to see worth the risk of taking my deep draft into.

It was less trouble to just do a straight shot from Dry Tortugas to Ft Myers Beach


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Arcb said:


> Marco's cheap. Just drag your boat up on the beach and set up a tent on Dickman's. Nobody will bug you


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Don0190 said:


> Yes, been to Naples on land and it wasn't anything to see a second time IMO. Near as I could tell marco had nothing to see worth the risk of taking my deep draft into.
> 
> It was less trouble to just do a straight shot from Dry Tortugas to Ft Myers Beach


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

eherlihy said:


>


I was only half joking 

I have done it. It was a bit of a gong show, surf lift stern, drop bows, bows dig into sand, surf lifts bows, rudders dig into sand, 90 degrees one way, 180 degrees back, straighten her out, rudders hit again annnnnd glide up on beach. It was something like that any way. The surf there is chaotic. I have a short vid for proof, but I never uploaded to Youtube or anything.

Seriously though, you can camp for free on several islands around Marco. There are enough unregulated spoil islands along the Florida gulf coast that you could sail the whole length of it and beach every night and legally camp. Might have to pay for some but even those are cheap.

:ship-captain:


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Yeah....can find no crowds.
Bring spray if wind isnt blowung.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Yes, and shark spray lol.

Marco and the 10000 Islands to Florida Bay is easily one of the prettiest and most interesting places I have been in the entire US, but shoal draft is pretty much a must if you want to see it.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Chainmail legging for when you need to walk her into deeper....


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

"Meanwhile back in San Fransisco" - Van Morrisson

https://www.wsj.com/articles/housin...pensive-some-people-live-on-boats-11557999002


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## ThereYouAre (Sep 21, 2016)

Don0190 said:


> Went ashore the other day to go to grocery store. Had on clean shirt, shorts, and sandals. We had our backpack and rolly cart along with a small bag of trash to toss in the trash can at the store. As I was putting the bag of trash in the can this older woman came out of the store and gave us a look of "I hate you homeless boat people scum!"
> 
> I'm trying to figure out how she could tell.


If you put on your blazer before disembarking your yacht these sorts of things wouldn't happen.

Harumph.

-Hugh


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## sailpower (Jun 28, 2008)

ThereYouAre said:


> If you put on your blazer before disembarking your yacht these sorts of things wouldn't happen.
> 
> Harumph.
> 
> -Hugh


Also, leave your Parrot on board.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

Funny how different places have a different view of boat people scum.

Rode over to this hole in the wall bad neighborhood liquor store on my bike the other day here in Gulfport MS. It didn't phase them at all that I rode up on a bike and got a few bottle of cheap alcohol, put them into my backpack and rode off back to the marina. All the bottles were behind the counter and I would point to one and say "I want a bottle of that cheap whiskey." And she would reply "Not cheap whiskey, it's life is good!"


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## GeorgiaTerrapin (Aug 27, 2019)

RegisteredUser said:


> I was having breakfast in a nice restaurant last week...didnt make a reservation and have to wait type of establishment.
> Great food but i looked over and saw a guy put ketchup on scrambled eggs his waitress had just served him. So very wrong...
> I couldve just kept my judgement private but i felt a need to berate him in public....you know that urge swelling up inside..a boiling..and my twitter followers might like it too.
> The manager of that Waffle House told me to leave and to never come back. And she wasnt very nice about it.


:laugh

There's a good reason to put ketchup on your eggs there:


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Most people dont know that in that old movie Water World, they were all searching for a Waffle Hiuse


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## svselkie02 (Feb 6, 2017)

Always carry a trash bag in your car, truck or boat.
They're sanitary, convenient, take up very little room and when they're full, simply toss them out the window.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

I’m back in Marathon where boat people scum have many levels. But there is enough land people scum around that it is hard to identify each and we all just into the scum catergory.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Simply..keys scum...


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## Eric C (Dec 8, 2019)

Some people's kids..........


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

Eric C said:


> Some people's kids..........


Especially the ones on scum boats :devil Sorry that's just the way it is sometimes.. Kids are kids and it all depends on the scum raising them.

There's a boat people scum boat moored not far from me with kids. I know of boats here that are pissed off that the kids run around on deck playing and swimming a lot making noise. I think that just makes them kids and prefer that to when the parents start screaming at the kids.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

My wife and I were at the bar for Happy Hour yesterday and across the bar heard this women say to her friend "I hate people living out on the boats. They are just scum!"

I kid you not and we don't think she was even talking about us!


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Thats the view looking out from burdines


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

RegisteredUser said:


> Thats the view looking out from burdines


It was at the Steak and Lobster and extra funny because she was a tattooed freak we would have thought would be more in touch with scum.

But yeah, between Burdines and the bridge there truly are boat SCUM.


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## Bill Hanna (Feb 19, 2020)

Shed just paid the mortgage payment on top of the water rates, the Med. insurance, house insurance, power bill, mower repair, parking ticket, car payment, Council rates, Oh did i mention the bad neighbour , You should feel sorry for HER .Poor thing.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

I recently learned on the other forum that the real problem with boat scum is ............ ME! Somehow it is my fault some sit at anchor and collect trash all over etc. Apparently the only thing sub-standard about this is my attitude.

So to all the boat scum scum (thats the scum of the standard boat scum) out there; I am sorry! But I am not accepting that just because you are poor that you collect trash all over your boat etc.. take the trash in, remove the 3 dead outboard engine that you have been “fixing” for 5 years, use some of that water you are sitting in a wash your boat to get dirt off t (rain will later rinse the salt off for free), take off that sail that is in tatters as no be believes that means you can sail away, consider jumping in the water a scraping an inch or two of the bottom growth off. Just make an effort to move up to the boat scum group.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Here's a thought Don; if it bothers you so much, maybe you should offer to help them. Clearly they don't care, but you do. And since you've clearly got too much free time on your hands anyway , why not put it to good use?

I'm only partly kidding here. I get why you want these "scum" to clean up their act. It reflects poorly on all boaters, and cruisers. And this is what can lead to boater restrictions. 

But for whatever reason, these people aren't doing what you think is best, so maybe you should go help them.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

scum scum aren't going to clean their boat anymore than the land scum scum is going to to pick the trash up in their yard (or call the junk yard to come get that car that has been sitting in the yard for 5 years, which the junk yard will do for free)


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Those cars keep people from stealing your cinder blocks


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

RegisteredUser said:


> Those cars keep people from stealing your cinder blocks


good point

maybe the trash on boats are to prevent people stealing those boats as we know the scum like to steal from other scum best


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

The liveaboards we have in our area are not very well liked, although I would hesitate to call them "scum", (with one notable exception!) One particular boat is a young family.

The problem is there are so many of them, and they have congregated in our little cove as they have been chased out of other areas. There are limited places to anchor, and they have taken up all those places so there is nowhere for visiting boats to go. This impacts the local businesses that miss out on the summer tourism revenue from the water. There are many users of the Cove in the summer, with kayak rentals, junior sailing, rowing etc and the live aboard clutter causes a lot of congestion.

Another problem is water quality. The Cove does not have good tidal flow, and the fecal coliform count sometimes gets to unsafe levels. I am the first to admit that there are other factors other than boater sewage that can cause this, but the fact remains, most of them never pull up their anchor, so how could they NOT be dumping their sewage in the Cove? They claim they use shore facilities, but I call BS on that. There is no way they dighy to shore and go to the public washrooms on the other side of the park every time someone has to go. Plus, the washrooms are locked after 10pm. What do they do at night? Hold it until morning? Right. They also claim they don't stuff all their garbage in the park garbage cans.

I could go on, but you get the idea. As far as I'm concerned they are squatters, and the sooner they are moved on the better.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

But there's the problem. NIMBYism raises its head, and the local constabulary is sent in to bust some heads and chase all these undesirables out. So they go ... where? As you say, they're in your cove because they've been chased out of other places. Where do they go next? 

Most of the people are living in this way because they don't believe they have better choices. I bet most are low to poverty-level income. So a real solution would be to raise social supports and institute a real living wage so people can afford to live where they work.

Oh wait ... that's so much harder than just chasing them away. As long as we on the right side of the economic line don't have to be bothered with these people, then all is fine.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

You are making the assumption that they are poor people. I don't think that is necessarily true. Certainly it is a cheap way to live, and yes, it is an expensive city to live in, but that doesn't mean they have the right to make that public space their home any more than somebody has a right to park their motorhome in a public park and make it their permanent residence. It also is not fair that a couple of boats in the area have gone through proper channels, paid for a water lease, and paid to have a proper mooring installed, yet these people feel they don't have to follow the same rules. (Not all the boats are liveaboards, some are just storing their boats there)

Some of them came to a public meeting on the subject recently, and they never claimed it was their only option, or that they had no other choice. They simply argued that they had a right to be there, but it was made clear by the authorities that they do NOT have that right. The biggest issue is overlapping jurisdictions, and which level of government was willing to step up and deal with the problem. 

In this case the proposed solution that is in the works is to ban long term anchoring. Apparently having those boats anchored there long term with their chains dragging across the ocean floor is doing serious damage to the ecology. 

Instead of anchors there will be a number of permanent moorings installed that are available to the public for short term (max 1 week I believe) for a fee. That way the limited space is available for everyone to enjoy rather than just a few.

I think that is a perfectly reasonable solution. I'm sure they don't like it...too bad. There are marinas that allow liveaboards. If they want to live aboard their boats in a major urban center close to all the amenities they should pay their way like everyone else.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

I am curious as to why you think you, or anyone for that matter owns the water. Is it only for wealthy people who own nice looking boats? 

I can understand if they were criminals, breaking the law. ( this of course excludes some bogus law created to get rid of them) . Are they breaking laws? I can understand if they were caught dumping their excrement. It appears by your description that they may be an eyesore because they don’t have an expensive boat. Hope that’s not the case. 

Where do you draw the line? People in Georgia have been prohibited from anchoring in many areas because some of the landowners feel it ruins their expensive view. There is a thread running on that here now. Laws restricting water access can go amuck easily. Especially if they are designed To target a “class” of people. The laws there are so restrictive as to ban people from many large swatch’s of water, no matter how wealthy they are. 

Your analogy about the public park refers to a definable property. Water by it’s very nature is not definable. Not sure what body of water this is, but many tidal estuaries have variable boundaries defined by riparian rights ( land ownership) . A distinction is drawn about land ownership vs the water. The end of land ownership being a high/ low tide line. Prevents a land owner from laying claim the the water. 

There have been many legal battles fought over municipalities/ states rights on waterways. 

Not trying to be argumentative just saying there may be another way of looking at this situation from another viewpoint like maybe the long term anchored. Your solution that acceptable to you would not be to them. There is another point of view here.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Most cruiser nets down in the Caribbean have a section called “safety and security “. Most of the reports are about dinghy thefts. Although some islands have a rep of being particularly bad it seems endemic. 
Had opportunity to chat with local law enforcement officers bending their elbows. Recovery rate is low. Arrests of perps even lower. But what surprised me was the universal opinion that many dinghy thefts were done by “boat scum”. These low life cruisers would steal a dinghy. Remove the engine. Sail to the next island and sell it via the “treasures of the bilge” section of that islands cruiser net. The cops believed that that was how some of these boat scum kept themselves fed. Dinghy and petty theft from other cruisers. 
We spend time in St.Vincent, St.Lucia and southern bays of Grenada. These are considered hotspots for dinghy theft. Used to use cable to lock up. Have switched to chain after talking with the cops. Cable is light and easy. Chain a PIA. 
Also pay close attention to the condition of the boats in an anchorage. Avoid like the plague sections where the boats look funky. Or I’m in reasonable swimming distance from shore. Ideal spot is near other cruisers with well maintained boats. Don’t care about size or make. Just care that the boats kept up.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

Some of you are going off the rails and climbing on your soapbox to preach social injustices. 

I just want boaters to clean the trash etc off their boats. To me it seems this is possible no matter what social level a boater is.

But it isnt, because some boaters are boat people scum SCUM. They are a problem to the regular boat scum.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

SchockT: I don't know the specifics of your situation, so I can't say what is happening here. I do know that, in general, people don't choose to live in substandard conditions. They do so when they don't see they have any other better choices. Instead of simply chasing them off, why not try and address the real causes?

... Unless all we care about is our own backyard.

Chef is absolutely correct. The gentrification of water vistas is a serious problem, and one that should be resisted. And all too often the laws are written by those of us with wealth and power to benefit us. The "scum" usually lack both wealth and power.

Don: As I said, if it bothers you so much, why not go help these people clean up their boats? Dinghy over. Offer to take their trash. Clearly you have some free time on your hands, and also clearly it is you who is bothered by the situation.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

MikeOReilly said:


> Don: As I said, if it bothers you so much, why not go help these people clean up their boats? Dinghy over. Offer to take their trash. Clearly you have some free time on your hands, and also clearly it is you who is bothered by the situation.


You know what? I find this continued holy bs just a load of crap! You are always writing crap like this like you are some more a moral type of person than others.

Tell me preachy man, besides posting on forums what are you actively doing to help people?


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Don L said:


> You know what? I find this continued holy bs just a load of crap! You are always writing crap like this like you are some more a moral type of person than others.
> 
> Tell me preachy man, besides posting on forums what are you actively doing to help people?


Wow, someone got out of bed grumpy.

Since *you're *the one always complaining about others, I'm simply suggesting YOU do something, instead of just whining like some little spoiled child.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

You are a funny man. I try and like you, but you make it so hard...


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

MikeOReilly said:


> SchockT: I don't know the specifics of your situation, so I can't say what is happening here. I do know that, in general, people don't choose to live in substandard conditions. They do so when they don't see they have any other better choices. Instead of simply chasing them off, why not try and address the real causes?
> 
> ... Unless all we care about is our own backyard.
> 
> ...


In this particular case the liveaboards are only part of the problem, it is also people anchoring their boats in the Cove as a cheap place to store them. Some of those ARE eyesores, and every windstorm it seems one of them drags or breaks loose and ends up on the beach or bashing on someone's dock. Those boats then become the taxpayers/homeowners problem as SOMEBODY has to pay to repair the damage they cause and haul the wrecks off the beach, not to mention the environmental impact.

The liveaboards are another part of the problem. One guy has an old powerboat, and he appears to also own a couple of the other boats anchored in the area. The suspicion is that he is buying old boats and flipping them. That particular guy has also caused at least one large oil slick in the Cove when he pumped the bilge off his boat.

Another boat, the one with the family living on it, appears to be running a business taking people on boat rides on their "pirate ship". It's not actually a bad looking old wood boat. One summer afternoon the public dock was very busy so they tried to land on our docks to offload their passengers. When it was explained to them that they could not dock because it is private they got very belligerent and unloaded a stream of profanities at us.

These are not poverty stricken people just trying to get by. They are people who have made a lifestyle choice.

Certainly there is an element of nimby-ism involved. The Cove is a beautiful area, and people pay millions of dollars for homes there, but it is also one of the most popular recreational areas in the region, used by thousands of residents and tourists.

These people have decided to lay claim to a patch of this little area to make it their home,and in one case a used boat business, and in doing so they are having a negative impact on the environment, the water quality, and other people's enjoyment of the waters, as well as preventing visiting boats from being able to visit because they have permanently occupied the limited anchoring space. They are also posing a hazard to navigation because none of them display anchor lights, (or lights of any kind) at night.

It seems to me THEY are the ones being selfish, not the residents of the area.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

SchockT said:


> In this particular case the liveaboards are only part of the problem, it is also people anchoring their boats in the Cove as a cheap place to store them. Some of those ARE eyesores, and every windstorm it seems one of them drags or breaks loose and ends up on the beach or bashing on someone's dock. Those boats then become the taxpayers/homeowners problem as SOMEBODY has to pay to repair the damage they cause and haul the wrecks off the beach, not to mention the environmental impact.
> ...
> 
> These people have decided to lay claim to a patch of this little area to make it their home,and in one case a used boat business, and in doing so they are having a negative impact on the environment, the water quality, and other people's enjoyment of the waters, as well as preventing visiting boats from being able to visit because they have permanently occupied the limited anchoring space. They are also posing a hazard to navigation because none of them display anchor lights, (or lights of any kind) at night.
> ...


Thanks SchockT, it certainly sounds like a complex situation. I have no problem running people off who are abusing a public good. Based on your description, it certainly sounds like a few people taking advantage of the public right to anchor.

I'd be interested to know what the outcome of all this is. You indicated there are actions afoot to discourage, or outlaw, this kind of behaviour. It would be interesting to know what transpires.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

MikeOReilly said:


> Thanks SchockT, it certainly sounds like a complex situation. I have no problem running people off who are abusing a public good. Based on your description, it certainly sounds like a few people taking advantage of the public right to anchor.
> 
> I'd be interested to know what the outcome of all this is. You indicated there are actions afoot to discourage, or outlaw, this kind of behaviour. It would be interesting to know what transpires.


Yes it is a complex problem, and unfortunately it ends up repeating itself over and over again. The boats will congregate in an area, the problem gets worse and worse until locals put pressure on their municipal government to do something, and once action is taken they just move on to the next unsuspecting community!

The problem is that the waters are the jurisdiction of the Port Authority whose mandate revolves around commercial activities, so unless the boats are interfering with shipping traffic they won't do much.

In this case the municipality is looking at purchasing a water lease from the port, which gives them control over the seabed within the lease area. They will then install mooring buoys and ban anchoring. Of course they still have to figure out who is going to pay for it, and more importantly who is going to enforce the time limits and collect the fees for mooring. The municipality is not equipped for any kind of bylaw enforcement on the water.

I don't think they are insurmountable problems but I suspect there will be more "studying" of the problem before anything actually happens.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Don L said:


> i am not grumpy. I am tired of your holy ******** and posts about issues that I am 99+% sure you do nothing about but try to tell others THEY should do something. Tell me your experience in personally having any direct knowledge of what the scum scum boats are like and the issue of derelict boats.There is nothing "Spoiled" about my wanting others to pick up THEIR trash.
> 
> It is an absolute bull suggestion that someone go over to some boat and say "Hey would you like help in cleaning up the **** pile on your boat?" What a stupid "suggestion!
> 
> And since I am on a roll, since you are a Canadian I am tired of your posts about what is wrong with the USA. Here is a hint WE dont care what you think.


Common Don....ease up. Everyone is entitled to their opinions...even me??


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Sounds a lot more of the eyesore issue of someone ruining someone’s view , course they thing they purchased the land so the water is theirs also. No one really owns the water, but that’s hard to convince the rich.

We have an issue on our creek where some rich dude got pissed that people anchored overnight in the Creek in front of his house. They were always respectful, but it “ruined his view” “which he paid big money for” 

His solution was to put 4 mooring balls there . Signs on the moorings said PRIVATE MOORINGS. After 2 months most of us noticed there was never a boat on the moorings. One weekend a bunch of us took up on the moorings. He came out yelling that we couldn’t do that. So we suggested he call the DNR...the local LEO.

When they arrived we explained the situation to the LEO. He made him remove the moorings. People of means do not own the water no mater how much money they flaunt. The water should be a shared resource and open to all.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Nice bookends to a complex problem Chef/SchockT. I have no doubt that some people will abuse the common spaces that should be available to all of us. But at the same time, the story of the rich and powerful gradually taking over these same commons, and turning them into private goods, is a story that's been going on for hundreds of years now. 

People should, and generally do, have the right to anchor as long as they are not impeding other traffic. But in a limited space, that right does not extend to permanently mooring. 

In Ontario, Canada every citizen can camp for free on public lands as long as they are not impeding other licensed activities. But that right is limited to three weeks at one location. That gives other people the ability to enjoy the same right. 

I'm all in favour of something similar when applied to anchoring.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

It's a good thing people have different points of view, otherwise there wouldn't be much to discuss 

The problem around here isn't anchoring or messy boats. It's those wake surfing boats. The ones with the trim tabs designed to create the maximum possible wake pound for pound possible. In a lot of the coves and rivers around here would never naturally encounter waves of that size. Shore line erosion, nesting sites, knocking over canoeists and kayakers.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Those boats take on water for wake boarding.
Not cheap boats, but desgned/built spexifically for that

A 60ft sportfisher coming thru...hold on bubba


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

Some of these posts are heading to or have crossed the line into being way too personal. Repeat after me: Comment on the IDEA, not the PERSON. 

Please do not continue with the personal attacks. Maybe even just move on if you can't disagree respectfully.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

No blood spilt.
Tis ok


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Arcb said:


> It's a good thing people have different points of view, otherwise there wouldn't be much to discuss
> 
> The problem around here isn't anchoring or messy boats. It's those wake surfing boats. The ones with the trim tabs designed to create the maximum possible wake pound for pound possible. In a lot of the coves and rivers around here would never naturally encounter waves of that size. Shore line erosion, nesting sites, knocking over canoeists and kayakers.


Good point. 
In Maryland you are responsible for your wake.

However what you present maybe a bigger issue overall.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

SchockT said:


> In this particular case the liveaboards are only part of the problem, it is also people anchoring their boats in the Cove as a cheap place to store them. Some of those ARE eyesores, and every windstorm it seems one of them drags or breaks loose and ends up on the beach or bashing on someone's dock. Those boats then become the taxpayers/homeowners problem as SOMEBODY has to pay to repair the damage they cause and haul the wrecks off the beach, not to mention the environmental impact.
> 
> The liveaboards are another part of the problem. One guy has an old powerboat, and he appears to also own a couple of the other boats anchored in the area. The suspicion is that he is buying old boats and flipping them. That particular guy has also caused at least one large oil slick in the Cove when he pumped the bilge off his boat.
> 
> ...


Recognizing the public also has the right to make use of the water ( owned by no one) I think it is realistic to insure that with a time limit that also insures it isn't closing it off to long term cruisers or vacationers.

I would object to it being short term ( a day or a couple of days) and leaving overnight should reset the clock. This would prevent a derelict vessel. Also the pollution laws should be reenforced.


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

Many areas already have laws against derelict boats and unlimited anchoring. All have rules against discharging. It often just comes down to lack of enforcement; sometimes due to politics, but most often because of a lack of resources. 

I don't know of any rules against looking untidy (sorry Don). As much as it disgusts me to see some of the crusty, moldy, ragged boats I've come across, I certainly don't want the government to have the power to make a subjective decision on whether or not my boat is sufficiently neat and clean. Actual garbage strewn about the deck? There are already laws against unhealthy nuisances. But I am not in favor of making sloppiness illegal.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

chef2sail said:


> I would object to it being short term ( a day or a couple of days) and leaving overnight should reset the clock. This would prevent a derelict vessel. Also the pollution laws should be reenforced.


Nothing prevents a derelict boat! No rule etc stops them and you can not even ticket them as in general no one even knows who the owner is.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

chef2sail said:


> Recognizing the public also has the right to make use of the water ( owned by no one) I think it is realistic to insure that with a time limit that also insures it isn't closing it off to long term cruisers or vacationers.
> 
> I would object to it being short term ( a day or a couple of days) and leaving overnight should reset the clock. This would prevent a derelict vessel. Also the pollution laws should be reenforced.


Agreed. This is why I offered my province's use of Crown Land as an example. People can camp freely for up to three weeks, but after that they have to move on. They can move to some other Crown Land spot, and that resets the clock.

This seems a reasonable timeframe for anchoring to me. It would eliminate the problem of those who want to abuse the commons, but would still provide reasonable access to all users.



mstern said:


> Many areas already have laws against derelict boats and unlimited anchoring. All have rules against discharging. It often just comes down to lack of enforcement; sometimes due to politics, but most often because of a lack of resources.


Exactly. There are laws, and even definitions of what Florida calls "At Risk" vessles in Florida Statute 327.4107. I bet every jurisdiction has a similar statute. The law defines an "at risk" vessel as:



> The vessel is taking on or has taken on water without an effective means to dewater.
> 
> Spaces on the vessel that are designed to be enclosed are incapable of being sealed off or remain open to the elements for extended periods of time.
> 
> ...


Note that looking junky or dirty is not one of the criteria. Although I bet junkier appearing boats are more likely to be an "at risk" vessel.



chef2sail said:


> I don't know of any rules against looking untidy (sorry Don). As much as it disgusts me to see some of the crusty, moldy, ragged boats I've come across, *I certainly don't want the government to have the power to make a subjective decision on whether or not my boat is sufficiently neat and clean.* Actual garbage strewn about the deck? There are already laws against unhealthy nuisances. But I am not in favor of making sloppiness illegal.


Well said.


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## wdonovan (Jul 17, 2019)

Was she a jet skier?


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

mstern said:


> I don't know of any rules against looking untidy (sorry Don).


Maybe no laws, but definitely places with rules. Here in the mooring field there are lots of rules and people do get tossed out if they get too scummy.

BUT just because there are no rules or laws it changes nothing about your scum level


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## SV Siren (Mar 8, 2013)

Sometimes I am thankful that I am in the Great Lakes. Abandoned or "scummy" looking boats are not in the water, but can be found on the hard in just about every marina. It's just sad to drive through boatyards and see all the unloved boats, usually classic plastic, just left to rot and make their final steps towards the inevitable chainsaw appointment.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=4225514524140742&set=a.3570958216263046&type=3&theater


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

SV Siren said:


> Sometimes I am thankful that I am in the Great Lakes. Abandoned or "scummy" looking boats are not in the water, but can be found on the hard in just about every marina. It's just sad to drive through boatyards and see all the unloved boats, usually classic plastic, just left to rot and make their final steps towards the inevitable chainsaw appointment.


'Tis true. Go into the back-40 of many on-land storage yards and you'll find the dreams that didn't pan out. Sometimes good deals for serious DIYers, or those looking for salvage.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

Just find the owner and offer to fix their boat!


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

SV Siren said:


> Sometimes I am thankful that I am in the Great Lakes. Abandoned or "scummy" looking boats are not in the water, but can be found on the hard in just about every marina. It's just sad to drive through boatyards and see all the unloved boats, usually classic plastic, just left to rot and make their final steps towards the inevitable chainsaw appointment.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=4225514524140742&set=a.3570958216263046&type=3&theater


Around here it is FAR to expensive e to store a boat on the hard. It is cheaper to pay for mooreage, and even cheaper to just leave it on the hook somewhere, hence the problem.

Amazingly I see neglected old boats moored in some of the most expensive marinas in the city such as Granville Island where mooreage can cost upwards of $12/ft per month! I guess some people just arent ready to admit the dream is dead!

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

$12/ft, wow that is cheap! I am surprised boat scum aren't lined up for that!


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## senormechanico (Aug 20, 2012)

I am only charging $5.25 / ft to a friend of mine for his Cal 34. I must be a bit behind the times.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

Don L said:


> $12/ft, wow that is cheap! I am surprised boat scum aren't lined up for that!


Why, how much do you pay for mooreage? That's pretty steep in my books!

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

Dp


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

SchockT said:


> Why, how much do you pay for mooreage? That's pretty steep in my books!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


I am paying $144 less to be on a mooring with no water or electric. Plus factor in time/trouble of having to dinghy in/out.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Its freedom, not trouble.
A positive
Embrace


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

I certainly wouldn't want the "freedom" of having to row out to my boat every time I had something to do on it!

I pay $1800/year for a 44ft slip, including power and water.

We don't even have mooring fields around here, it's all docks.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

SchockT said:


> I certainly wouldn't want the "freedom" of having to row out to my boat every time I had something to do on it!
> 
> I pay $1800/year for a 44ft slip, including power and water.
> 
> ...


Thats extremely cheap
That's a year round slip or are there restrictions on months?


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

chef2sail said:


> Thats extremely cheap
> 
> That's a year round slip or are there restrictions on months?


Year round. The only down side is it takes a couple of hours to get out of the harbour when going on a longer trip.

It's a pretty good deal!

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


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## SV Siren (Mar 8, 2013)

SchockT said:


> I pay $1800/year for a 44ft slip, including power and water.
> 
> We don't even have mooring fields around here, it's all docks.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


Up here in Michigan, where I am located, it is $4850 for a 6 month 50' slip including power and water, and another $1900 for storage on the hard, not including haulout related fees, as well as launch fees.

That is quite a deal!!


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

At Lewistporte marina where we're currently based out of they charge $1200 CND (so ~$900 US) for a seasonal dock. Power and water and wifi included. Full access to clubhouse with large galley, many fridges (which we can use to store food), big lounge area, BBQs, showers, laundry, TV, etc. Winter storage runs $338 CND and launch/haul is another $240 CND for me (all based on 40-foot LOA).

Downside is it's only for six months -- unless you're really tough. If you go much past November you'll be dealing with lots of frozen water, and they turn off all the services.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

I am $4200 for a 55x 19 slip year round. Clean showers and hurricane hole with 122 slips. 90% sailboats. 15 minutes from open CHesapeake. 
South of The Bay Bridge where there is consistently more wind

3 miles from Severn River ( Annapolis) 

Yard on premises owned by Hinkley with 30 ton travel lift and well trained boat tradesman

Portable pump out


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

At my marina (formerly a Brewer's, now a Safe Harbor), they charge by the slip size. I have a 25' slip, which they will allow up to a 30' boat to use. The base price (not including taxes or environmental surcharge, nor an early paying discount) is $3,690 for the season. I have a 28' boat, so that's about $132 per foot for the season. They're pretty flexible on the definition of "season". It's supposed to be over on Nov. 15, but there's no definitive start date. I've seen boats at the dock as early as May 1.

Winter storage is charged by the sq ft. I paid about $1,700 last winter.

This marina is really great. Restaurant/bar, lots of bbq's and picnic tables, a couple of pavillions, full service chandlery, wood shop, fiberglass shop, mechanics, etc.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

mstern, you’re saying your LOA is longer than the slip and they only charge for the length of the slip? First I’ve ever heard of such a fair deal. Everywhere up here, you pay for the longer of the two. Safe Harbor has been buying up everything here too. First they bought out Brewers and have since bought the marque Newport Shipyard, New England Boatworks and Jamestown Boatyard too. Monopoly coming and prices rising and our rates out here are pretty damn high already.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

Today i watched a 40’ sailboat with no sails leave the mooring ball under tow of a flat bottom dinghy with a 6 hp engine and being controlled by 2 other dinghies with small motors. It gives me no comfort knowing it now is anchored 100’ (just enough to meet the requirements) in front of me. I do see it has 2 anchors out that based on the distance each anchored boat next to it has would be about a 2:1. I of course know those anchors didn't get set.

I can do nothing about this and assume if they drag into me their “self insurance” policy will cover my damage.

They didn't strike me as boat scum scum till yesterday when the guy was drunk at 7am outside whistling and yelling for someone to come give him a ride in so he could go to work. My bet is they got thrown out of the mooring field for that.

Bet they started cruising on the “it costs what you can afford” budget, just to find out it doesn't cover it.


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## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

At least, in a boat, you can just weigh anchor and leave. I'm surrounded by 3 " Land people scum" on my block. Tired of fighting with the town's impotent property maintenance people, I need to buy another house and move. Preferably a good distance from neighbors. Will probably take a hit vs true market value, had I had neighbors that took pride in their homes.


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## haydenwse (Mar 5, 2019)

Don L said:


> As I was putting the bag of trash in the can this older woman came out of the store and gave us a look of "I hate you homeless boat people scum!"
> 
> I'm trying to figure out how she could tell.


I'm trying to figure out how YOU could tell.


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

Minnewaska said:


> mstern, you're saying your LOA is longer than the slip and they only charge for the length of the slip? First I've ever heard of such a fair deal. Everywhere up here, you pay for the longer of the two. Safe Harbor has been buying up everything here too. First they bought out Brewers and have since bought the marque Newport Shipyard, New England Boatworks and Jamestown Boatyard too. Monopoly coming and prices rising and our rates out here are pretty damn high already.


This marina was already a Brewer's by the time I moved in; when Safe Harbor bought them, I was bracing for a price increase and a general change in attitude. So far, not much has changed. Prices went up, but there have been so many empty slips around that the market won't let them raise fees more than a little. And the services are just as good as they've always been.

And yes, this marina charges a flat rate for the slip, regardless of boat size. As I said, they limit the size of the boats for each dock, mostly it seems based on the fairway width to the next dock. Most of the docks have the same amenities (water, electric, cable tv, all included in the slip fee), although some of the "smaller" docks don't have the TV hook ups I think.

This place is a real change from the last marina I used. Over there, it was very bottom shelf: only water at most of the docks, no services, a "camp-like" bathroom with no showers, no fuel dock, no chandlery, no office.... That marina was about half the price of my new place, and when I first bought a boat, was all I really could afford. Twenty-plus years later, my salary is much higher, my kids are out of the house and out of school, and I can afford to treat myself.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

mstern said:


> ...And yes, this marina charges a flat rate for the slip, regardless of boat size. ...


Just for the record, the marina I'm currently based out of also charges for slips this way. They have different charges for different sized slips. Not sure how much overhang they allow here (haven't been here long enough), but the rates are based on the length of the slips, not the length of your boat.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Brewers always had a reputation for quality slips and infrastructure. Shore facilities were highly variable. Never awful, but somewhere between acceptable to pretty good. And they charged for it, which makes sense. 

Safe Harbor is funded by private equity, which is how they are gobbling up so many marinas. Private equity is buying up everything with recurring cash flow these days. They will require an exit and healthy return on what they paid. That will require a strong ongoing market. If things turn upside down, they'll get desperate. 

The fixed fee per slip is truly a first and exactly how it should work. Not out here though.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

Currentl the boat scum people to me are:

The ones who feel the virus restrictions don’t apply to them because they are “safe”. I never realized how many boaters feel general instructions for everyone don't apply to them.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

You described most of the human population on this planet
I cant yet speak about other planets


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

RegisteredUser said:


> You described most of the human population on this planet


Sad isn't it? Forums are full of cruising wannabe lawyer sailors quoting things in the order on why a 24 hour curfew and stay in place doesn't apply to them


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Currently working on a workaround for the liquor store closings
Good for a month, but taking this seriously
Prob wont report back my solution

Will probably start heading back west in another month. 
In a good position now but will look for something different soon


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

Wait...they are closing your liquor stores??

Our government has declared them an essential service! It makes sense when you think about it...a lot of people in our society have alcohol dependencies. 

Fortunately we are not at the point of 24hr curfews and "stay in place" orders, so I am still free to go sailing without being labelled "scum"!

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

SchockT said:


> Wait...they are closing your liquor stores??
> 
> Our government has declared them an essential service! It makes sense when you think about it...a lot of people in our society have alcohol dependencies.
> 
> Fortunately we are not at the point of 24hr curfews and "stay in place" orders, so I am still free to go sailing without being labelled "scum"!


Here in Ontario as well; liquor stores are "essential". Far be it for me to quibble with my government .

Actually, when I look at the long list of "essential businesses" the Ontario government has published, I can't help but think it would be easier to list the non-essential businesses. I think the list would be a lot shorter.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

People thinking liquor stores are essential shows how much lip service is really going on. It also adds to people not fully taking the whole thing serious.

Lets be clear, if you currently leave you house and travel in public for anything other than food (and not because you are out of cookies, but that you really don't have food that you can survive on) or medical you are part of the problem. While that doesn't make you boat scum it definitely makes you a form of scum!

People stop with the stupid silly justifications and stay put out of contact. Don’t be SCUM!


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

If they are closed for a long time, an old craft will reemerge.
Shortage of drivers for nascar....they will be busy making deliveries


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Don L said:


> People thinking liquor stores are essential shows how much lip service is really going on. It also adds to people not fully taking the whole thing serious.
> 
> Lets be clear, if you currently leave you house and travel in public for anything other than food (and not because you are out of cookies, but that you really don't have food that you can survive on) or medical you are part of the problem. While that doesn't make you boat scum it definitely makes you a form of scum!
> 
> People stop with the stupid silly justifications and stay put out of contact. Don't be SCUM!


I'm not sure exactly where you are right now, but IMO things aren't nearly as apocalyptic here. I think it's time to chill a little and just enjoy the company of immediate family. If you're alone, maybe put on some soothing music.

The weather is turning beautiful, so simple pleasures of life like walking around town (without congregating in groups), walking the dog a few times a day, cleaning up yard debris from the winter, etc. are allowed and encouraged. Our mayor has asked us to buy carry-out from our town's restaurants (and/or buy gift cards) 2-3 times a week to help keep the businesses afloat. (I bought Chinese carry-out a few nights ago to resist the "yellow peril" that seemed to be emerging among certain people.) I've done all these things without coming within 6 feet of anyone aside from my wife for the past week.

Our Governor has made it pretty clear what businesses are allowed and what are not:

https://www.scribd.com/document/452553026/UPDATED-2-30pm-March-24-2020-Industry-Operation-Guidance

I work from home anyway, so things aren't that different from normal. We're staying in except to buy food a couple times a week. When we do, we go to the town COOP to buy our food. I'd have no qualms about driving to the boat to do some projects, but haven't had time to this week. I did go to the boat a few days ago to pull some tools that I needed to use at home. You can sue me if you want, but I didn't come less than 50 feet from anyone else, and didn't touch any community property, so no chance of exposure.

I'll leave you with a meme a friend posted yesterday. I think it helps to put things in perspective:


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Grain alcohol can be used to make sanitation stuff
A local pharmacy is making sanitizer from it and giving it out free if you shop there


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## john61ct (Jan 23, 2017)

And being able to purchase alcohol and other addictive products is **absolutely** essential for many, not joking around at all.

Even so-called "recreational" mind altering ones that many do not believe physically addictive help contribute to the population getting through this, and safe / legal distribution helps reduce COVID infection vectors.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Rick,

What’s how far away is the closest hospital?
In our area they are flooded with people ( first hand knowledge) . I wonder if the EMT/ police would share your feelings. It appears some areas even close to each other geographically have differing experiences. 
Density appears to be a contributing factor in its spread ( makes sense) where suburban areas not hit as hard. 

Hospitals, pharmacies, stores in many areas around you are very very busy. We get Baltimore/ Philly/ Delmarva TV stations . I have lots of family in Swathmore, Malvern , Bucks County, Medford Lakes and Cherry Hill. 

Having to lay off 1400 people with families is pretty apocolyptic . 

Good that you can work from home and have an ability to do that that many / most don’t have. 

Not doing testing Except for the very sick doesn’t show the true magnitude of the epidemic. 

I agree time to enjoy what you have. 

Stay safe for you and your family😄


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## jtsailjt (Aug 1, 2013)

SchockT said:


> I certainly wouldn't want the "freedom" of having to row out to my boat every time I had something to do on it!
> 
> I pay $1800/year for a 44ft slip, including power and water.
> 
> ...


 WOW, that price for a slip sounds like a real bargain to me! But I think that boaters who mostly use moorings don't row anywhere because they have a dinghy with an outboard on it. In recent years, electric start small (ours is 20hp) outboards are becoming more common and that means you can have an automatic bilge pump so no need for bailing after every rainstorm.

My boat (still offseason here in Maine) is currently in a slip but I can't wait to get it back on its mooring so all I have to do is drop the mooring pennant when I want to go for a sail! Also, once on it's mooring, we have privacy and the boat always points in the "right" direction. With solar panels and a wind generator and a WIFI antenna that pulls in the signal from almost a mile away, we lack few of the creature comforts or conveniences of being in a slip, and we tend to do a lot more sailing than if we were hooked up to electricity and had half a dozen dock lines to untie.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

Don L said:


> People thinking liquor stores are essential shows how much lip service is really going on. It also adds to people not fully taking the whole thing serious.
> 
> Lets be clear, if you currently leave you house and travel in public for anything other than food (and not because you are out of cookies, but that you really don't have food that you can survive on) or medical you are part of the problem. While that doesn't make you boat scum it definitely makes you a form of scum!
> 
> People stop with the stupid silly justifications and stay put out of contact. Don't be SCUM!


Yes, liquor stores are considered essential. Do you have any idea how many functioning alcoholics there are in society? People you know and wouldn't even guess. People will start to do stupid things if they run out of booze. The liquor stores are open but they only allow a few people in the store at a time, and people wait outside in spaces out lines. The sidewalk is marked every 2 meters and people abide by that. Not that lineups are long because there is no panic.

We aren't in a full lock down here. Things aren't that dire yet. I still go to work as my trade is considered essential service. Most of what I do does not require me to come into contact with people, but when I do I follow hygiene and distancing protocols.

If everybody is smart about what they do and where they go they can reduce their chances of spreading the virus to nil and still maintain some normality in their life.

Perhaps things are more dire where you are. Perhaps the government doesnt trust the population to listen to and follow health experts advice. Perhaps they are over reacting because while other countries were testing, tracking, and isolating outbreaks they were still in denial about the seriousness of the situation.

Whatever the reason, things are different here. So try not to be too judgemental about what other people are doing to cope with the situation.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

Guess the guy on the corner selling crack is now at the top of the essential services market

ukeukeukeuke


Guess in a month there will be less addicts and drunks around then

= scum reduction

Sorry some of you bleeding hearts don't like this, but the Others don't need to continue to risk infection for them


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

Don L said:


> Guess the guy on the corner selling crack is now at the top of the essential services market
> 
> ukeukeukeuke
> 
> ...


Wow! Really?

Do you honestly believe that all alcoholics are scum? Are you truly so ignorant that you don't believe that mainstream society isn't full of functioning alcoholics? Yes even rich people get addicted.

But then you are in a country where mainstream politicians are arguing that the elderly and vulnerable should be sacrificed for the sake of the economy, so I guess I can see where your attitude is coming from.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

SchockT said:


> Wow! Really?
> 
> Do you honestly believe that all alcoholics are scum? Are you truly so ignorant that you don't believe that mainstream society isn't full of functioning alcoholics? Yes even rich people get addicted.
> 
> But then you are in a country where mainstream politicians are arguing that the elderly and vulnerable should be sacrificed for the sake of the economy, so I guess I can see where your attitude is coming from.


I think we can all tell who the real "scum" is here.


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## john61ct (Jan 23, 2017)

Sociopathic tendencies and the ability to live inside an artificially belief-system defined "reality" are key attributes of "success" in American capitalism.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

To just save you all the trouble let me be clear.

I am not overly concerned about alcoholics or illegal drug users well being over the rest of us no matter how “ functional”they are.

Liquor stores are no more essential than crack dealers. If you feel the liquor store is an essential business in the current panic you need to reconsider yourself.


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## john61ct (Jan 23, 2017)

They are objectively essential from a social POV.

They are just not essential **to you**

nor to those whose lives you consider having greater worth than the addicts

and that is the point.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

Don L said:


> To just save you all the trouble let me be clear.
> 
> I am not overly concerned about alcoholics or illegal drug users well being over the rest of us no matter how " functional"they are.
> 
> Liquor stores are no more essential than crack dealers. If you feel the liquor store is an essential business in the current panic you need to reconsider yourself.


Maybe the difference is that we arent panicked. We have been dealing with this in a calm and orderly way. We listen to our public health experts, and so do our politicians. Our policies are based on their advice, not the whims of our politicians.

Down there you guys seem to be in full panic mode because of a lack of leadership at the top. You were caught completely unprepared because you ignored the warnings for many weeks before acting, and all that time the virus was taking hold. Even now your polarized politics are getting in the way of effective response. You have a federal government that cares more about the stock market than the health and safety of their citizens and it is left to individual jurisdictions to decide how to respond, and they have to deal with partisan attacks and resistance to their response.

This thing is far from over, and things will likely get worse before they get better. But for now, I am going to work, risking getting infected every day in order to keep our critical infrastructure functioning properly, and on the weekend, if the weather is nice, I will reward myself with a nice sail, and maybe a bottle of wine.

If you think that makes me scum....I can live with that!

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Don L said:


> Wonder where you think i am at?
> 
> Scum probably rarely understand they are scum and justify it away.


Why play coy? Just tell us where you are so we can take your local situation into account.

Your profile says you are in the Bahamas. Is that correct?

Your continued, repeated use of a pejorative detracts from civil discourse. Is that your intent? Are you in troll mode?


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

I've deleted a few posts and closed the thread.

It will be deleted in a few days giving you enough time to work out why I deleted it.

Also I have imposed a new rule - no I have no intention of wasting the other Mods time so I havent asked - any reference to "scum" is now banned and gets you banned. Including mentioning you might have scum on the hull....

I thought it was some nice, quaint Americian terminology but it appears to be a rude attack. We dont require people to be "nice" but we sure as hell REFUSE TO HAVE ATTACKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (Unless its me, of course  )


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