# I have resigned as moderator.



## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

First let me say that this is no joke and allow me to thank the many good friends and members who have made my job as moderator worthwhile and lent their support in tough times. I am NOT leaving sailnet; just ending my tenure as a moderator. Now let me get into why.

As many are aware, I started a "Prospective Tartan Buyers" thread here in summer of 2007. My initial purpose was to make members aware that there were reports of Tartan/C&C hull and outdrive problems and that a couple of owners had filed suit. I took no side then on that issue but merely alerted potential customers to a possible issue and suggested that buyers get a survey done and/or investigate the reports on their own. A year and a half and 464 posts later, the thread had taken on a life of its own and many unflattering facts had come to light about the management and legal and financial position of the company while the original issue I raised has still not been settled by the courts. It is not my intention to re-hash that thread here. The important thing to me is that the thread alerted fellow sailors to the possibility of some product problems that could possibly be a major issue at sea AND that Tartan/Novis has well over $1million dollars in judgment liens OPEN against them and several more suits pending. Prospective buyers should be aware of this so that they can take steps to protect themselves before taking possession of a boat or making deposits.

Imagine my surprise when Sailnet took this thread off line in late October. 
To make a long story short... William Ross, President of Novis/Tartan called Sailnet management to complain about the "biased" nature of the thread and asked them to take it down. He made it clear that there was a possibility of legal action if they did not.

Sailnet management removed the thread without understanding the content or context since they do NOT follow this board closely. They did understand the math...remove the thread at no cost...or face a possible lawsuit costing 10's of thousands of dollars.

Over the last few weeks, CruisingDad and I have been trying to help Sailnet management understand the thread and they have come to realize, I believe, that there is a moral issue here and a free speech issue as well as a business issue. The bottom line is that despite what they might like or choose to do in normal times... they simply cannot afford to get involved in a lawsuit even if there is an overwhelming likelihood that they would eventually win. I was told that they would have to lay someone off to be able to fight a suit. Given that stark choice, I told Sailnet that I would probably make the same decision to delete the thread... but could no longer remain a moderator for a site that deletes a thread so important to sailors.

So folks...that is the unvarnished truth. I am not sure if this post will be allowed to stand or be deleted too and would ask my friends to make copies of it so that if it is deleted, it may go viral!

I want to once again state that I bear NO ill will to anyone at sailnet as they are not the CAUSE of the thread being deleted...only the implementers and VERY reluctant ones at that. For those still interested in reading the content of the thread you can get it all but in bits and pieces at Google using their "cache" function and entering prospective tartan site:www.sailnet.com/forums in the google search box.

I intend to remain a contributing member here with my friends unless my posts start getting deleted in which case you can find me over at cruisersforum under the same screen name.

Again... thank you all for your support and understanding.

Cam


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

Cam, I don't know what to say, but I do understand. Your efforts have made the forum Great. My respect goes out to you the way you handled a thankless job.


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

So, not only is the formerly good name of Tartan Yachts ( & C & C) being dragged through the mud by their current management but our good friend and (former) moderator Camaraderie is resigning. 
This is a sad day for free speech my friends and a very sad day for the Novis/Tartan brand. This kind of strong armed tactic should be very reassuring to prospective buyers. 
I still like my pre-Novis built Tartan 27' from 1967 whent the company had a high standard of quality and integrity.
Mostly, I am sorry to hear of the anguish and BS you had to endure through all of this Cam. You have been nothing but a gentleman here, IMHO.
A sad day indeed.
CalebD
T27 #328, 'Odalisque'


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

The fact that they (Tartan) are actively engaged in pursuing discussion threads on the internet and requesting they be removed speaks volumes more than even the thread itself could ever say. Thank you for your service here on sailnet. I have always enjoyed your posts and respected your "moderation."


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## denby (Feb 21, 2007)

Cam,

Very sorry to see you give up your position. You did a very good job as moderator and will miss pocking fun at your red button, but I do understand your decision. glad you will still be here as a member to share your wealth of knowledge.


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

Camraderie -- Very sad to see you relinquish your post. You've been a great moderator.

All -- Is anyone going to try to capture the old thread? Just because sailnet can't host it, doesn't mean it has to go away.


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## captbillc (Jul 31, 2008)

cam_____ thanks for the help you have given me when i needed it . you did a great lob as moderator. sorry to see the elimination of free speech . do we sig heil to tarten with our upraised arm. i am old enough to remember hitlers fanatic followers with their upraised arms


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Cam...you'll get no grief from me for standing by your principles.......

Salute


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

tdw said:


> Cam...you'll get no grief from me for standing by your principles.......
> 
> Salute


ps - refer to my post re SA v SN on the DC thread....maybe this is part of what it's all about......


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## btrayfors (Aug 25, 2006)

Sorry to hear you're resigning as Moderator, Cam. Have always enjoyed and valued your posts.

And, I hope that you will continue to participate here and elsewhere. Your name and reputation are such that it won't matter a damned bit to most Sailnet participants that the "Moderator" title will no longer appear with your name.

Bill


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## Saildoggie (Aug 16, 2008)

Geez CAM, being kinda newbie here I always vaued your posts and also a sense of solidarity that this guy knows his stuff!!


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## jrd22 (Nov 14, 2000)

Say it aint so, Cam! I applaud your decision to resign based on the circumstances, glad you will still be participating. 

John


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

Cam,

It's a real shame that your efforts to help prospective Tartan owners should end like this. No good deed goes unpunished, eh?

But SailNet is losing a well-respected moderator -- ultimately their loss. 

I hope you're able to continue participating so we can all benefit from your experience and expertise. -JRP


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Hmm...

it would seem that there is a bit of a free speech issue happening here. Isn't this something that you Americans prize above all else ? I think that the responsible thing to do would be to post the thread on all the Sailing sites...

I don't think that they could afford to sue all the website operators at the same time could they ???


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## Joesaila (May 19, 2007)

*Sorry to see that.*

If Tartan put some of the effort into correcting the real problem that they put into legal intimidation, perhaps they would have saved what is now a sinking ship. Remember rule #1? The customer is always right. Thanks for the truth Cam. You did an excellant job.


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## dwightgry (Dec 5, 2007)

Around one year ago I posted a question as a newbie looking for info on bahamas cruising. Cam, you answered many of my questions (very well) and last Jan. I crossed the stream and spent almost 3 months having the time of my life, following much of your advice. Now I am really hooked on cruising whereas before I just liked boats. This is just one example of the positive impact you have on this community. Thanks for your service as moderator in the past, but please don't withdraw your insight and support from the community.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Applaud your position, Cam, yet very sorry to lose your services and contributions to this board as moderator.

Please do stick around, your "boatless" status will not be held against you!!


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

Sailormann said:


> it would seem that there is a bit of a free speech issue happening here. Isn't this something that you Americans prize above all else?


Americans of late seem more than happy to give up their cherished freedoms without much complaint. That being said, this forum is a privately owned enterprise, a service that SailNet provides to its users for free and SailNet absolutely has the right to control content. It's their sandbox, they just let us play in it. Free speech in this forum is what SailNet says it is. And that's as it should be.



Sailormann said:


> I think that the responsible thing to do would be to post the thread on all the Sailing sites...


I agree 100%.


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Gee, a man with honor, what a refreshing experience it is to encounter one. And a gentleman as well. There was nothing posted by our ex-moderator that could be construed as anything but what he has just said it was, objective information. And I'd say that the resignation was conducted with dignity as well, to Sailnet's loss. I fully understand Sailnet's position; they've all the risk while we risk little if anything.

As to Tartan, certain conclusions may be drawn and you may be sure that I probably agree with the membership's more obvious ones. I'm sure that they considered alienating Sailnet's vast membership when they vowed legal action. I'll be communicating my feeling about that elsewhere rather than here. I seem to recall a boat show coming up in Chicago where some other principled sailors meet annually.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

George

Sorry to hear you've resigned, but do look forward to your continuing contributions.


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## danielgoldberg (Feb 9, 2008)

Hmmm. Not to be a contrarian, but I don't think you should resign. Obviously you need to do what you believe is right, but you seem to accept that Sailnet did not do anything unethical or inappropriate. As you say, "they" made a business decision, and one that probably made sense. Being in that business of suing and getting sued, I can say that your estimate of tens of thousands of dollars in legal costs probably is off by a zero. Or two. No joke, the cost of litigation absolutely can crush a company, particularly one that is not very well funded. It happens all the time, and if you can't afford the fight, your only choice is to settle, regardless of how right you might be. From what you say, the culprit clearly is Tartan, and these kinds of things have a way of getting out, so I wouldn't worry about sailors not getting the word on this or future similar occurrences. Indeed, Tartan probably just ensured that this gets more attention than it otherwise would have gotten.

But more important than all of that, you can't do anything about it if you resign. The only way to have an impact is to stay in the fight, so to speak. If you resign, they win.

Anyway, as you know George, I have great respect and fondness for you, and whatever you decide you'll hear no criticism from me (at least not any that isn't followed by a smiley face). You're a great moderator and a great asset, not just to Sailnet but to sailors. That's why I would prefer not to lose you as a moderator. Of course you still can help by simply participating, but you can and would do more by moderating.

So, that's my pitch for you to stay on.

Respectfully,

Dan


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Cam, you did a great job as moderator/cat herder and a better job in resigning for your principles. 

I don't blame Sailnet, either; they are in a no-win situation.

Was the thread saved in any form? There is a chance it could be posted elsewhere as "fair comment".

You guys in the States still have "fair comment", right?


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## frankdrebin (Jan 14, 2008)

Playing devil's advocate here, Sailnet IS exercising their free speech rights. What is posted here, on THEIR site, is their business. If one wants to exercise their speech rights, they can get their own soap box.

We are guests.

Having said that, I too abhor strong arm tactics and the American habit of lawyering up.


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## artbyjody (Jan 4, 2008)

Always interesting when companies that have forums like this fall under the "100 ton threats". Legally speaking, there is precedence already established - and it occurred in the early BBS days that open forums where content is driven by users and not paid for - a company can not be held liable for the actions of, or content provided by those users. I should know - as I used to operate a mega-BBS back in the days and saw my own share of "frivolous intimidation threats to remove content"..

I highly doubt Tartan can spend $$$ to do such lawsuits, considering the amount of $$$ they are spending to protect whatever assets they have. 

None the less Cam, think about all the FREE time you will have to design a sail plan for your RV, and the time now you will have the family that you now will have to go on vacations with instead of sending us on temporary vacations... Life will be good...

You did the right thing...Its hard to see where Sailnet is going as of late - but I have noticed as of late that overall - not nearly as active as it used to be when I first started posting beginning of the year... You'll be missed as a moderator of reason and think the group of you did really awesome work to keep the atmosphere the type that made me at least enjoy the forums...

Best wishes


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

Its all been said above, and I echo all of it. As someone who has come back to this forum after a few years absence, your posts along with a handful of regulars jump out at me as the framework of a real informative warm sailing community. That you are a principled individual who is willing to stand by what he believes is commendable beyond comment.


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## tomaz_423 (Feb 5, 2006)

Cam, 
About your resignation: 
You did the right thing to resign and to tell us why. 
There is something good in this as well. With your moderator power you had also moderator obligations. You had to be objective and tolerate opinions which you maybe did not like. Now you are free to express your opinion, as it is only yours.
About Tartan (or any other company blocking information): If a product have issues I like to know about them. If the company openly talks about it and allow others to talk about them I can make educated decision and still buy the product. We all know Internet is not all gold, but let me decide it by reading it. 
But if the company does not allow others to openly speak about issues of their products it is a big STOP sign for me. If I do not know what are the issues I do not even consider that product. There are others on the market. 

Cam, thanks for good work, please contribute as normal user and in a year you may get bored and take moderation again.


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## Rockter (Sep 11, 2006)

Best wishes there Cam.

What a marvellous law it must be that the loser of a lawsuit does not pay the costs of the winner. When potential costs stop the potential winner from fighting, then the law is rotten to the core.

There will probably be silence on this issue for a while, but in the meantime, I won't buy anything from them. 

Is that libellous?


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

danielgoldberg said:


> I wouldn't worry about sailors not getting the word on this or future similar occurrences. Indeed, Tartan probably just ensured that this gets more attention than it otherwise would have gotten.
> Dan


I didn't know a thing about the Tartan thread, or any alleged issues with their yachts until this. In addition to knowing about the alleged issues, I know also now know that they appear to not be a particularly nice bunch of people.

This is a good thing for the firstmate and I, as now our list of potential dreamboats just got narrowed down.


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## JLBJR (Sep 16, 2006)

Cam:

A year ago I was accused of spamming when I described my positive experiences with Prism Polish. It was one of my first posts and I was quite taken aback by all the negative responses. You not only set the contributors straight, you contacted me privately to discuss the situation and to get the facts directly. You are a man of principle and integrity and your resignation is a loss to Sailnet as well as the rest of us. I am glad that you will remain as a member, but furious that Tartan would use the threat of legal action to intimidate Sailnet and to put yet one more crack into the bell of free speech. The funny thing about this is that until now, I was not aware of the Tartan problem. Had they let well enough alone, I most likely would never have been. Looks like I got some surfin' to do!!!

JLBJR


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Cam-

Your voice as a moderator will be missed, since you were always very proactive in keeping the rest of us in line with a great sense of humor and fairness. I do hope you stick around, even if you're only sailing an RV on dry land for the near foreseeable future, as the loss of your experience and knowledge would really blow chunks.

I also understand why you chose to resign your role as moderator, given the "legal politics" of the situation. You are a man of honor and integrity, which is passingly rare as our friend Sway has pointed out.

It does speak volumes about Tartan/Novis/Tim Jackett needs to go and threaten various internet fora regarding open and honest discussions of their product and the problems with them, rather than responding openly and defending themselves.

While Tartan/Novis/Jackett may not have the money to pay for any such litigation, the threat is a serious one to the financial stability of any company in today's economic climate. Also, the fact is, the US court system is pretty screwed up, and there is little consequence for filing a frivolous or baseless lawsuit the way it is currently structured-and many lawyers are greedy enough and unscrupulous enough to file a suit as such.

_I do feel let disappointed by the fact that you've now left us to the mercies of a mostly unchecked CruisingDad, who will be forcing his BBQ Catalina agenda on us without hesitation or restraint now that the sole voice of reason has vanished.  
_


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

Cam

Thanks for all you've done here.


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## wchevron (Oct 19, 2007)

sailingdog said:


> _I do feel let disappointed by the fact that you've now left us to the mercies of a mostly unchecked CruisingDad, who will be forcing his BBQ Catalina agenda on us without hesitation or restraint now that the sole voice of reason has vanished.
> _


SD, i heard the inside scoop is CD is pushing to get the name changed to BBQnet now that Cam is out.


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## raisin56 (Jul 26, 2008)

Thank You Cam
While there are many wonderful things about our country, SD is right, our legal system has its flaws. With the current ease of frivolous lawsuits and journalistic prying into every aspect of a persons life we find ourselves with fewer and fewer quality people willing to step forward int the public eye to lead. How many time have you had to vote against someone rather than for someone?
Thanks again Cam for you past service to the sailing community.

Dan


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## danielgoldberg (Feb 9, 2008)

chall03 said:


> I didn't know a thing about the Tartan thread, or any alleged issues with their yachts until this. In addition to knowing about the alleged issues, I know also now know that they appear to not be a particularly nice bunch of people.
> 
> This is a good thing for the firstmate and I, as now our list of potential dreamboats just got narrowed down.


I meant that if Cam hadn't posted it as moderator, someone else probably would have. And because he did, that became the thread rather than someone else starting one. Also, the Tartan situation actually had gotten some attention on other boards and I think in a rag as well.

Anyway, that was a very small point. My bigger point was that I would rather have Cam at the helm than be rail meat with the rest of us. But, of course he's entitled to be spelled every now and again too.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

CP-

The world becomes a more interesting place when you're bored... since you tend to solve the boredom problem rather creatively, much to the dismay of your target. 


cardiacpaul said:


> Cam,
> 
> Thank you for your service.
> Its Sunday morning here, and well, this just plain pizzes me off.
> ...


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## RestlessWind (Jun 4, 2008)

Cam
I applaud your honesty and integrity. novis/tartan AND Sailnet could benfit from assuming the same high standards. It maddens me to see "free speech" trampled under the weight of threatened lawsuits, ESPECIALLY when it is truthful/objective. Sad to see it happen, but very glad that you will be staying on.
Honor and Dignity.... many could learn from your example!


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## SimonV (Jul 6, 2006)

Cam
You deserve a big “THANK YOU” from all here. Yes you have deleted, edited and admonished some of my posts, but I will miss your moderation. I take my hat off to you for standing by your principals. I for one look forward to your future posts, as you can now come out and play without your moderators responsibilities. Welcome back into the trench.


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## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

Cam,

I understand the reasons for your decision but also understand Sailnets desire to avoid defending a lawsuit in these trying times. It costs money, even if you are in the right, and for most all of us, money is in short supply these days. 

I want to thank you for contributing your time and expertise to help educate your fellow sailors, be they neophytes like myself, or experienced world cruisers. You were willing and able to help regardless of the persons experience level and always gave useful advice. I know I personally benefitted from your advice, and want to again thank you for that.

I hope you will continue to be a regular contributor here, the forum will be greatly diminshed without you.


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## djodenda (Mar 4, 2006)

Cam:

Thanks to you for all you have done for us as moderator. I look forward to your continued contributions.

Thanks, Cam!

David


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Cam

You a a true man of principal and true to your principals and I admire that. I support your reasoms for resigning and protest Sailnets decision to "knunkle under" to the strongarm threats. 

One only has their reputation in life and no matter how you cut it the stance to give in on the principal of freedom of speech on the website to protect Tartans commercial interests is tantamount to agreeing with them. 

This is a sad day for the site as it means that all threads in regards to products should be held suspect. Be carefull what you all post no because if they have the reasources and do not like what you have written, they may threaten to sue and your comments will be now "edited" off the forum.

I assume this is the principal you are protecting and I applaud you. You are a gentleman with honor.

Dave


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Well so much for freedom of speech eh. I never really have had anything to say about tartan one way or another, but will probably make a point to bring up how they bullyed a sail forum to violate the freedom of speech to the people I meet, like other sailors and all around the docks and all the places I go, sad day indeed. Thank you for all you have done as a moderator and a nice person all the way around. I also think it is a big lost for sailnet. The best to you.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Thanks everyone for your kind words and good wishes. They are much appreciated. 
In answer to a couple of questions.
1. I DO have the complete thread which I immediately got from google once the original was deleted. It is piecemeal and I am in the process of reconstructing it so that it may be reviewed in the order and date which it was written. 
2. One additional reason for leaving as moderator was to allow me to post as an individual (as I always have) with NO possibility that my own posts in any way represent sailnet.
3. There is additional news since the thread was deleted that is both public and factual and I will be sharing this in the next day or two. Please bear with me as I am busy with other things but will fill in the gaps as soon as I have time. 

It occurs to me that it would be rather difficult to stifle a foreign based website/forum that would post the facts and then if there were lots of links to it, it would rise high on google search so that those interested in Tartan would have access to more than just marketing information about the company. It is also more difficult to stifle a hundred voices than just one.


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## denby (Feb 21, 2007)

sailingdog said:


> _I do feel let disappointed by the fact that you've now left us to the mercies of a mostly unchecked CruisingDad, who will be forcing his BBQ Catalina agenda on us without hesitation or restraint now that the sole voice of reason has vanished.
> _[/QUOTE
> 
> I'll miss Cam xing out or changing what I say on various threads. But I back him 100%
> ...


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Thanks for all your effort as one of the guards of this asylum. But, on the upside, it is always more fun to be McMurphy than Ratched.


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## Melrna (Apr 6, 2004)

Like the others, I want to thank you from my heart for all the work you did here on Sailnet. With your guiding hand it is what it is today.. Many heart felt thanks. Free speech is a dual edge sword. Here is swung both ways. In this case, it was a huge blow. Everyone loses here and no winners. 
Good luck and I hope you find a site to post the Tartan debacle. The good news now is you can make serious fun at everyone including BBQ man without repercussions from the moderator!  Enjoy your new found freedom!


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

Thanks, Cam, for your contribution. Moderating is no fun, as I well know, and your contribution to Sailnet in that respect was well-appreciated.

Jim


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

Two and a half years ago my family and I moved to hurricane country without really understanding what this potentially entailed. Two storm seasons quietly came and went, and we were a happy family. Then came last September, with Hanna lurking in the southern Bahamas.

The forecast was for Hanna to develop into a strong Cat 3 or a weak Cat 4, making landfall at Savannah and Hilton Head Island. If this happened, the island would be physically cut in half, thousands of boats and homes destroyed, and many lives lost. This got our attention. The problem was that the storm was still many hundreds of miles away, and moving in a figure-8. So what's a family of four to do? Leave now? Wait? What to do with the boat? Move it? Move it where? Strip it and leave it? Suddenly there were hundreds of decisions to be made.

When the island's fate first seemed to be in jeapordy, I began receiving PMs from Cam. He told me what to do with the boat ("Forget about the boat. It's gone."), and he told me when to PREPARE to leave ("Immediately"). He took the time to look at his charts and to discuss possible places to move it (way up the May River), but decided that the boat was probably safest where it lay.

He also told me to stay put. Cam's PMs came with his own commentary on the weather forecasts, and a few lines on what the island would likely look like in the event that a strong Cat 3 hit. The seabed here is like a gentle ramp that would send salt water sloshing across the island. He also took the time to point out a variety of scenarios that would affect us in less dramatic ways, some of which might allow us to stay put, saving us a great deal of time and money that came with evacuating. If you've ever had to prepare for an evactuation, you know what I'm talking about here. It is extremely disruptive. Cam advised us to stay put, but to be prepared to leave on a moment's notice.

Several thousand people on HHI left early to avoid the massive traffic snarl that would occur if a mandatory evacuation order was given. School was cancelled. In the face of this, my wife took a great deal of comfort in Cam's personal attention, as he has dealt with these situations for many a hurricane season. Simply put, we were getting the best personal advice anyone could ever get. He wasn't playing it safe by telling us to "Get out now!" He was offering nuanced advice, showing a family of hillbillies how to play it smart and safe.... 

Meanwhile, events slowly played themselves out. Well before the storm reached our lattitude, I got a PM that said, "I am greatly relieved by this morning's forecast. I think you're going to be okay..." This came many hours before the NHC said exactly the same thing. Hanna's top had been torn up by sheer and would be passing well to the east. We were out of the woods, and we hadn't wasted a bunch of time and money by jumping the gun.

Anyway, here's my final point: Cam took a great deal of time and trouble to look out for a family he'd never met. Why? APPARENTLY HE THINKS THE LIVES AND FINANCIAL WELL BEING OF STRANGERS IS IMPORTANT.

Sooo... am I sad to wake up this morning to read of Cam's departure?

Thanks, Tartan!


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

Valiente said:


> I don't blame Sailnet, either; they are in a no-win situation.


I don't blame them, per se, but it's unfortunate the site's been diminished again.



Valiente said:


> Was the thread saved in any form?


Google's cached copies. Search on the thread subject, gather the pieces, glue together in coherent order, pass out for others to paste all over the 'net  It's been done before. I suspect Novis/Tartan committed a tactical error here.

Btw: Why is it the Tartan name seems to be getting the most attention? Novis apparently owns both Tartan and C&C, and the original thread was about Tartan/C&C issues, no?



Valiente said:


> There is a chance it could be posted elsewhere as "fair comment".
> 
> You guys in the States still have "fair comment", right?


ITYM Fair Use. Fair use allows one to quote bits of an original work, and then only to support an original work.

Jim


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

artbyjody said:


> Its hard to see where Sailnet is going as of late - but I have noticed as of late that overall - not nearly as active as it used to be when I first started posting beginning of the year...


Could be the time of year. Last season, about this time, I pretty much stopped posting here. Abracadabra was on the hard, winter was setting-in, other interests kicked-in.

No this year, tho. Hmmm... Does that mean the sailing bug is kicking-in harder? 

Might also be Sailnet's made a couple decisions lately that have really annoyed some people. Killing-off the mailing lists like they did, with no warning. Implementing that brain-dead word censor that would whack things like "seacock" . (On a freakin' *sailing* forum, no less.) Gluing adverts to the end of peoples' posts.

Jim


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

artbyjody said:


> Legally speaking, there is precedence already established - and it occurred in the early BBS days that open forums where content is driven by users and not paid for - a company can not be held liable for the actions of, or content provided by those users.


I imagine you're referring to The Communications Decency Act, Section 230



artbyjody said:


> I should know - as I used to operate a mega-BBS back in the days and saw my own share of "frivolous intimidation threats to remove content"..


But you're *not* a lawyer, are you? No. Neither am I. But we both know this: Anybody can sue just about anybody in the U.S., for just about anything. And even if the plaintiff's case is frivolous, they can often prevail if the defendant cannot afford to mount a defense. I once watched a _thorougly_ frivolous case last months and months, costing the defendants tens of thousands of dollars, before the plaintiff finally dropped their case on the verge of the Court declaring it frivolous. If the plaintiffs had run out of money they would have lost by default. Yes, the legal system here is really that screwed up.

Jim


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

Wow, go away for a week in sunny Mexico and the world is split asunder.

*Hey Management!*

What's next one wonders??

Will Jeff H be forced to only submit positive reviews of the boats he discusses? After all he's a moderator as well as Cam.

Will SailingDog only be allowed to post positive reviews of equipment he has direct experience using?

Will I be reprimanded for being so frigging realistic and anti-hybrid when the makers of these products come whining to you?

Will West Marine demand a complete retraction or deletion of the thread that clearly shows they have defective products at prices that are higher than any competitor?

*Shame on Sailnet. Ban me before I ban myself you gutless wonders.*

Good luck finding another moderator you frigging idiots.

This forum just died.


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## Vasco (Sep 24, 2006)

Sorry to hear about your decision Cam, but I can understand how you feel. It's getting harder to find decent sailing forums, there's lots of them but most don't have much activity.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Actually this made my day. Motivated me to join up and post. Good to see you gone.As a moderator you were biased and condescending. Also, I see you are still posting incorrect information. Hope they delete this thread too.


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## farmboy (Jul 8, 2008)

*Troll?*



y111x said:


> Actually this made my day. Motivated me to join up and post. Good to see you gone.As a moderator you were biased and condescending. Also, I see you are still posting incorrect information. Hope they delete this thread too.


Care to post any "correct information" that contradicts him?


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

y111x = another one of those 'Novis' sock puppets with an IP address in Ohio and only 1 vitriolic post. Hmmm.
Hope you get deleted/banned Buddy boy.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Like a lot of threads on a BBS, this thread is taking a life of its own!

Gearge, 

Sorry to see you stop moderating. Enjoy life when it comes on the road! moding is phun, but not so phun at the same time. One needs to drive along a fine line. SOmetimes one goes over, sometimes one goes the other way!

Marty


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## Sequitur (Feb 13, 2007)

Cam,

I do not use this forum very much, probably because I'm too busy sailing. However, one of the things I have enjoyed here is your intelligent and even-handed input as a moderator and as a contributor. I thank you.

Integrity is seemingly a scarcer commodity these days, and I admire your decision to resign. I hope that we can all continue to enjoy your wisdom and clarity here. Let's not allow the Tartan/C&C/Novis/Jackett fiasco fade from our screens.


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## retclt (Nov 7, 2006)

As usual I'm coming on late to a thread.

This really really really sucks! I hope this isn't the beginning of the end. I have met a lot of friends at SN. It's my favorite place to hang out.

Cam . . . . . . . you are a good egg! I can't think of anything to say that hasn't already been said. I appreciate you! Please stay active in the forum.


.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

George;

I knew this was might be coming but I really hate that it came to this. I really hate to see you hang up your badge and guns. You did a lot of the heavy lifting around here. Hopefully, this will sort out in a way that entices you strap on those side arms and head out with CD and I to face down the next Miller Gang. 

Jeff


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Hey look peoples....Cam was one of the good guys. Ok so we are diametrically opposed on most things political but when it came to discussing anything to do with sailing he was always free and open with his thoughts. (Hell, that sounds like a bloody eulogy....) Me, I admire him for taking a stand on an issue he believed in. 

Anyway, whatever......I don't think this place is about to go belly up , we have these kind of upsets all the time, but if , and I do say IF we are the lifeblood of the place then management does need to listen occasionally and maybe even provide us with a bit of feedback.

Hopefully this will pass, like a fart in the wind, but it does worry me that yesterday I went back onto Cruiser Forum for the first time in over a year.

Look what you have made me go and do Cam....you should be ashamed of yourself....


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## retclt (Nov 7, 2006)

What time is it in Oz??? Do you ever sleep TD?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*reposting of "I have resigned..." and offer to host*

I am the editor of CascoBayBoaters.com and re-posted your announcement in the event it is taken offline from Sailnet.

CascoBayBoaters.com is based out of Portland, Maine, and is for all boaters on the bay; be they recreational, professional mariners, or commercial fishermen. I would be happy to host the thread in question if it can be re-created.

Our site is new, and a tad under-represented in the Sailing dept. Hopefully that will change. Please let me know if we can be of any assistance, and our thoughts are with you.

MonkeyFist
(emailable thru the blog; sorry I cant link directly to the site or my email address, this is my first post)


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

tdw said:


> Hey look peoples....Cam will pass, like a fart in the wind, Look what you have made me go and do Cam....you should be ashamed of yourself....


Fluffy; call's em like he sees em!!!! :chaser


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## denby (Feb 21, 2007)

y111x said:


> Actually this made my day. Motivated me to join up and post. Good to see you gone.As a moderator you were *biased and* *condescending.* Also, I see you are still posting incorrect information. Hope they delete this thread too.


y111x,

Cam? Biased and condescending? Our Cam?   You will have a very hard time selling that to anyone here or that know him personally. 
Care to post proof of your statement.
Most be from Novis.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

retclt said:


> What time is it in Oz??? Do you ever sleep TD?


Eight in the morning kiddo....Monday morning to boot.....I usually get into the office early, get a bit done then mooch about here for an hour or so before everyone else arrives around 9.00.

Hey now....ref Cam....shouldn't we have rowed him to shore in the Admiral's barge or some such ? or at least thrown him into the dinghy and set fire to it.....


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## denby (Feb 21, 2007)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdw View Post
Hey look peoples....Cam will pass, like a fart in the wind, Look what you have made me go and do Cam....you should be ashamed of yourself....



xort said:


> Fluffy; call's em like he sees em!!!! :chaser


Nice job Xort. :batter

How dare Fluffy call Cam a fart in the wind. :laugher


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## retclt (Nov 7, 2006)

y111x said:


> Actually this made my day. Motivated me to join up and post. Good to see you gone.As a moderator you were biased and condescending. Also, I see you are still posting incorrect information. Hope they delete this thread too.


At the risk of getting myself banned for bad treatment of new members . . . . . . . I won't call you biased and condescending

. . . . . . . but I'm thinking it.

Welcome to the Forum B&C

.


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## knothead (Apr 9, 2003)

George, you don't need SailNet's permission to moderate me any old time you think I need it. Matter of fact, I would consider it an honor.
You've always been fair and honorable from my perspective. I look forward to your continued presence and guidance.
Steve


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Cam, you might want to ask a lawyer about the terms "misuse of process" "Abuse of process" and "extortion".

In my limited understanding of these issues, if a lawyer for a fictitious company were to, say, threaten to place lawsuits against another company (which enjoyed certain legal status as a publisher) for the perhaps express purpose of extorting certain actions that might affect a lawsuit....

I've heard that lawyers can be disbarred for such actions, depending on the specifics and the courts who hear of them. Disbarred, fined, jailed, and sometimes when their clients have consented to and encouraged the actions, the clients get spanked with the big whip too.

Of course, this is all just what some uneducated unrelated hypothesizing bystander might have gleaned or misunderstood from the internet.


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## artbyjody (Jan 4, 2008)

denby said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by tdw View Post:
> 
> Hey look peoples....Cam farted in the wind,


So glad he did... glad he is not next to CD with the BBQs flaring - a whole marina would of went up in flames!!!!

(My AFOC membership is up this year - sorry)...


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## seawitch1906 (Oct 10, 2006)

*Cam it is more than sad ..it is demoralizing*

Cam I don't know you , and my relative short affiliation with this site , not allow me to have a full view of this nonsense .. but being a Broker myself who sell new and used sail boats it is blood boiling to learn that , what happened .. in many level
Our company have dropped brands before , for a very same reason : we learned about the product and experienced the problems and WE made the choice not to represent a brand what can not live up to the quality and value what we like to offer and standing by .. 
We in sailboat business... we don't selling used cars , but selling passion, lifestyles, honesty , and the art of the sailing life ..there is no amount of money worth to exchange that for any builder ,
If Sail Net bullied in to make a choice by a lawyer-ed up company ..it is not only sad but demoralizing ... If "that Builder" instead of muscle his way around correct that very much well known problems would be a better world for all of us ..but substandard people have substandard morals,

I hope we hear from you again , time to time ,

free speech we giving up, in all level of our life , and this is just a new nail to the coffin what we the "people" building so willingly .. is sickening !

I know what sailboat I will not sell ever again


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

HS,

The problem I see with you premise, is it sounded like Mr Ross of Novus was the one doing the calling etc, not an attorney! 

But, items like this are why another site I moderate on, if lawsuits etc are going against them, folks on the site take a grievance to court, or equal, ie BBB for instance, then all posts are deleted until the grievance has been heard etc. Then new posts by said person can be kept.

In the mean time, some of the issue being squaked about here IMHO with due respect to George, may be his own undoing. Along with sailnet to a degree. 

I do not have an issue with George, as he is a god guy, and does want to help etc those asking for help with issues, Is not afraid to jump into a quarrel, as I am probably doing here with my opin above, but what the hay, will not be the first time, nor the last. Along with he DOES have opinions as we all do, and is not afraid to say them!

Enjoy this while it lasts.
Marty


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## artbyjody (Jan 4, 2008)

Nice post...I think Cam did the right thing all the way around.. I followed the threads..and what swayed me the most was his diligence into the actions of the company in light of the issues. If sailnet continues to fall to the knees of lawsuits before they happen... this will be a sore place to get info from. Cam was at least always diligent and any issues I ever had - he chatted honestly with me or at least played third party (voluntarily) so I didn't blow up in the forums... A true class act...The more we know - the better we are as a community and I think honestedly he has always pursued that as a moderator...


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## Pamlicotraveler (Aug 13, 2006)

Cam helped me and my crew with our offshore trip this summer from Morehead City NC to Block Island, RI. We faced a challenge and needed advice, and he was there for consultation and weather interpretation etc. and he really had nothing to gain from being so helpful - He is just a nice guy. For that I am very thankful! In addition his posts here have been helpful and insightful on so many subjects and I, for one, have relied on them. Hopefully you will still post.

Sailnet, don't be easily intimidated. You could have required Bill Ross and his unsavory crew to notify you in writing of any specific posts with inaccurate statements and promised to remove them. That would protect your from the charge that you were abetting false information that hared the company. Even a cheap lawyer could have easily helped you navigate this rather than remove the whole thread. You (whoever the "you" in sailnet is, I really don't know) should definitely issue a formal reasoning for this removal. Alot of Sailnet members have put a lot of time into sorting through and understanding that thread. 

The word is out, Tartan is now a failed company. I talked to a broker last week who had one (a couple of years old) - He says it isn't getting any attention from knowledgeable sailors because the reputation is shot. All the high tech buzzwords don't mean a thing to the informed consumer. Muzzling the board through legal intimidation isn't a path for success. Believe it.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

You know, Cam, the old gray matter fired up and reminded me of something that happened in the early 70's. There was a minor disagreement about how someone would or would not let a public event be covered by a newspaper, a and the editor make a clear judgment call. "You don't want us to cover it our way? OK, we won't cover it. That's it people, everyone leave, no further coverage on this subject."

And we all left. After another week with zero coverage....at all in any way....we were told to go back to covering it exactly the way it had been covered. (Fairly and equitably, I might add.)

So here's a hypothetical exercise for folks to consider. Not a suggestion that they DO ANYTHING, just a hypothetical for consideration:

Since some parties seem to think that certain discussions of certain products could have an adverse effect on commerce, perhaps the owners of ALL SAILING AND BOATING FORUMS be encouraged to remove ALL MENTION OF THOSE BRANDS AND PRODUCTS and to put up a filter that makes sure they are entirely removed from the public view EVERYWHERE. If the lawyers feel that the courts are the only fit venue for discussion of their products, make it so.

After all, fair's fair. The lawyers don't want to see their name mentioned, OK, let's make that happen for them. And encourage other boating forums to do the same helpful thing. No further mention of the brand(s) being affected, anyplace, anywhere, anytime, until after the matter has been settled and some court-endorsed facts have been determined as fair for discussion.

Doesn't that seem, well, in the most helpful spirit?


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## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

y111x said:


> Actually this made my day. Motivated me to join up and post. Good to see you gone.As a moderator you were biased and condescending. Also, I see you are still posting incorrect information. Hope they delete this thread too.


Wow you must be pretty thin skinned and sensitive if you thought Cam was condecending.

If Cam irritated your tender sensibilites, I doubt you'll last long (or add much value) here since there are alot of members here that make Cam look like a saint.


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

y111x said:


> Actually this made my day.


So happy for you.



y111x said:


> Motivated me to join up and post.


And one can readily see Sailnet will be the better for it! 



y111x said:


> Good to see you gone.


He's not gone. Your reading skills could use some work.



y111x said:


> As a moderator you were biased and condescending.


Cites, please?



y111x said:


> Also, I see you are still posting incorrect information.


Care to back-up your assertion with some proof?



y111x said:


> Hope they delete this thread too.


What century you living in? The rest of us are in the 21st century. There is this thing called the "Internet." Companies and individuals are finding out they can run, but they can no longer hide. They find out, usually the hard way, that whacking one irritant only results in dozens or hundreds replacing it.

Jim


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

George...you know...good...all that we spoke

I'll call


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

tdw said:


> Hopefully this will pass, like a fart in the wind, but it does worry me that yesterday I went back onto Cruiser Forum for the first time in over a year...


What _are _we, separated at birth? I did the same thing last week...frankly, the sheer volume of serious, fun-free posts there depresses me.


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## TxLnghrn (Apr 22, 2008)

Cam,
Thank you for all the time and effort you have put into making the sailnet community a better place for all. Please stay around and provide your insights, knowledge and humor.
Michael


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Valiente said:


> What _are _we, separated at birth? I did the same thing last week...frankly, the sheer volume of serious, fun-free posts there depresses me.


absolutely......that place can really bring you down...lots of good information but I'm not sure about it at all.....I ran away cos I was censored for calling some thing without a mast a stink boat...for heavens sake....


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

One thing of course that everyone including SN management are ignoring is that wthile it would cost SN dosh to defend a nonsense law suit Tartan probably couldn't afford the dosh to lodge the documents......


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Cam,

Okay, I mean, you drive me crazy most of the time around here - but I'll happily knock some heads for ya on this one. You're a fellow sailor after all. Anyway, it'll be fun to have you around here "defrocked and ungloved". 

So now that your priest's collar is off - let's kick some N/T/C butt! What a bunch of chumps!

Smack


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Mr. camaraderie, please good bye I like you. who looks after me when my dad goes to work.

soccer is for girls, are you girl?


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

OPTIMANIA said:


> Mr. camaraderie, please good bye I like you. who looks after me when my dad goes to work.
> 
> soccer is for girls, are you girl?


The question du jour...man up cam!!!


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## gtod25 (Aug 5, 2000)

*y111 - you need to get our more!!*



y111x said:


> Actually this made my day. Motivated me to join up and post. Good to see you gone.As a moderator you were biased and condescending. Also, I see you are still posting incorrect information. Hope they delete this thread too.


uke

Cam, Sorry to hear you resigning as a moderator. I have always found your input mature and in the best interest of the posters. You should start consulting and coaching moderators on some other forums especially one that I have occasionally attempted to post on. The moderator recently refused to publish my post and when I accused him of censorship he replied that "In a private domain, such as the XxXXXXXX Forum it's called "circuit discipline," and not censorship. It's part of my responsibility to promote harmony within the organization." My post was about a rudder, very controversial, not. You guidance will be missed.


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

y111x said:


> Actually this made my day. Motivated me to join up and post. Good to see you gone.As a moderator you were biased and condescending. Also, I see you are still posting incorrect information. Hope they delete this thread too.


There really wasn't much competition in November for Horse's Ass of the Month but it seems we have a late entry prepared to sweep the field before him. It's frankly unimaginable how anyone could eclipse the manure posted above in only one short day without extraordinary effort. I'd say the prize is locked up.

If this was the motivation for the poster to join sailnet, one can only wonder as to what his motivation was in reading it otherwise and what future gibberish we can anticipate in the future. We'll just have to try to restrain our eager anticipation for more from this oracle.

Frankly, the only logical explanation for the above post is that, somewhere in the vast stretches of Wyoming perhaps, am ewe sheep has learned to type. I'd submit that her efforts are wasted here. The membership here generally prefers their sheep incapable of communication.


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Damn! 

I'm glad that the builders of the Catalina line have a thick skin! (g)


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

the sticky requiring all to be nice to new posters was created by Cam. Now that he's not moderating I guess that no longer applies.

Hey y111...you're definately a horses @ss


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## seawitch1906 (Oct 10, 2006)

*Y111x isn't a code for a new strain of VD?*

Originally Posted by y111x 
Actually this made my day. Motivated me to join up and post. Good to see you gone.As a moderator you were biased and condescending. Also, I see you are still posting incorrect information. Hope they delete this thread too.

Dear Y111X !

There is always one out there in a jungle we missed to to catch for the ZOO to display under the sign:" MORONUS MAXIMUS"

You not only uninformed, uneducated ,unstable , but also a coward.. 
hiding in your rented room , posting this vomit with out any merit , nor knowledge.. What was your last contribution to anything in your pittyful life , beside soil this community with your "present" ..
You not even good to insult ..just moronic .. 
Reminding me Cyrano , who schooling the vermin who try to ridicule his nose ..

naaa ,you not even good to be a moron //


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

sailaway21 said:


> There really wasn't much competition in November for Horse's Ass of the Month but it seems we have a late entry prepared to sweep the field before him. It's frankly unimaginable how anyone could eclipse the manure posted above in only one short day without extraordinary effort. I'd say the prize is locked up.


I dunno, my friend. That AE28 character raised the bar pretty damn high. This y111x in-duh-vidual appears to be nothing more than a painfully obvious, no-talent, uninspired, drive-by troll.

Jim


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## Cruiserwannabe (Jan 28, 2006)

xort said:


> The question du jour...man up cam!!!


Geesh Cam are you really gonna leave it up to Brian and Jeff?? have a heart Man

ok Ill put myself in time outs from now on !


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## painkiller (Dec 20, 2006)

sailaway21 said:


> There really wasn't much competition in November for Horse's Ass of the Month but it seems we have a late entry prepared to sweep the field before him. It's frankly unimaginable how anyone could eclipse the manure posted above in only one short day without extraordinary effort. I'd say the prize is locked up.


I'm working on it, I'm working on it!! Oh, the pressure....


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

y111x said:


> Actually this made my day. Motivated me to join up and post. Good to see you gone.As a moderator you were biased and condescending. Also, I see you are still posting incorrect information. Hope they delete this thread too.


y111x, You seem to have a problem with Cam, if thats the case then why not present an intelligent statement thats demonstrates why you do and on what basis? To come on here with effectively an anonymous indentity, and launch a 4 line antagonistic, unsubstantiated attack just says to me that your an angry little man.


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

I think y111x is AE28 under s new screen name. The timing is just to much of a coincidence.


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## rdstanley (Sep 23, 2006)

y111x, congrats on the horses ass award, you definately deserve it. Totally classless post but then again it's probably the best you could do. What a jerk off!!!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I'd be interested to know exactly what basis you have for saying this, given that this is your first post and that you joined SAILNET this month. You may have been lurking for quite some time, but if you haven't noticed you are in the very tiny minority with respect to your feelings about Cam. You're obviously an idiot and a troll, who is too stupid to realize that maligning someone who is as well respected and liked on a forum is not exactly a bright idea.

BTW, CD/Jeff H/mods-if you see fit to impose the one-week ban for picking on N00bs on me for this post, please feel free...but obviously, y111x is an idiot and a troll, and I stand by what I've said.


y111x said:


> Actually this made my day. Motivated me to join up and post. Good to see you gone.As a moderator you were biased and condescending. Also, I see you are still posting incorrect information. Hope they delete this thread too.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

OPTIMANIA said:


> Mr. camaraderie, please good bye I like you. who looks after me when my dad goes to work.
> 
> soccer is for girls, are you girl?


Thank you Fred...that is very nice of you to say. Are you dry from falling off your boat yet??!!
I will still be here...just no Moderator any more. I will still watch out for you!!
Now to answer your question. No...I am not a girl...goalkeepers cannot be girls...only strikers!
But, speaking of girls...I am concerned about your Papa.


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## poopdeckpappy (Jul 25, 2006)

bubb2 said:


> I think y111x is AE28 under s new screen name. The timing is just to much of a coincidence.


And here i thought it was CD :laugher

Cam, if all it means is that you removed " Moderator " from your screen name, which allows you to post important info for all our benefit, all that needs to be said is thanks.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

Cam if you put together all the facts of the case in as dry and technical way as possible with no judgment calls and post an article on Wikipedia you can move the problem to people for whom this is barely a murmur in the background. These folks have dealt with Abortion, Creation, stem cell, Scientology etc. 
As long as your report is factual the editors will probably let it stand. Controversy is something they are used to. They may delete it but maybe not.
You could add to or create a section on the history of the company.

This kind of thing is common in the Internet business. Groklaw - Digging for Truth
Check out the wikipedia article on SCO for an example of what they like. The SCO affair stirred up a lot of emotion among the technical crowd with billions of dollars of lawsuits that are still not resolved but there is still a pretty good wiki article about it.
It is not hard in todays wired world to get the truth out.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

To all who have posted since I last said thanks...again...Thank You. 
I will be in touch with those who have asked for a copy of the thread once I have put it all back in order from the google cache.


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## Rockter (Sep 11, 2006)

Hey, sail that Tayana to Loch Ness and I will stand you a beer, or 5.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Rockter-

He sold the Tayana and is in the process of getting a landyacht... 


Rockter said:


> Hey, sail that Tayana to Loch Ness and I will stand you a beer, or 5.


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## denby (Feb 21, 2007)

Rockter said:


> Hey, sail that Tayana to Loch Ness and I will stand you a beer, or 5.


I think Cam will have a small problem sailing his RV over to Scotland. He will have enough GPS units aboard.


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## Gramp34 (Oct 5, 2006)

blt2ski said:


> The problem I see with you premise, is it sounded like Mr Ross of Novus was the one doing the calling etc, not an attorney!


William J. Ross appears to be acting as Novis Marine Ltd's attorney in the case PORTER, WRIGHT MORRIS & ARTHUR vs. NOVIS MARINE LTD. ETAL (where Novis' former law firm is suing them). Search the Cuyahoga County Court for Civil Search under company name Novis. It's Case Number: CV-08-647213.

Very interesting is the docket entry for 11/12/2008:



> THIS COURT SETS A HEARING ON NOVEMBER 24, 2008, AT 10:00 A.M. FOR CONTEMPT AS ATTORNEY DONALD J. EZZONE FOR DEFTS BROAD AND JACKSON AND ATTORNEY WILLIAM J. ROSS FOR NOVIS MARINE, LTD, FAILED TO APPEAR AT THE SCHEDULED HEARING ON 11/12/08, AT 11:00 A.M. THE ATTORNEYS APPEARING FOR THE HEARING ON 11/12/08, ARE TO SUBMIT AFFIDAVITS OF REASONABLE ATTORNEY FEES AS THEY RELATE TO THE TIME AND EXPENSES FOR APPEARING ON 11/12/08. JOURNAL ENTRY TO ALL ATTORNEYS AND PARTIES BY CERTIFIED MAIL...NOTICE ISSUED


That hearing was postponed until December 1st at 9:00. Unless, the hearing tomorrow is to decide if Novis is to be placed in receivership.

Either way, it'll be interesting to see what happens tomorrow.


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## Delirious (Dec 16, 2001)

Cam,

I am saddened to come back from four days out-of-town (in Maryland eating crab & oysters along with turkey) to find this thread. God bless and following seas in your future pursuits. You will be missed as a moderator but hopefully will remain active among the Peanut Gallery. I applaud your conviction to make a decision and form an opinion: two arts that have fallen into disuse in society at large. 

While America guarantees free speech the Constitution and Bill of Rights does not guarantee us a means of expressing it. We all agreed to censorship when we joined on here (anyone remember the fine print we agreed to abide by?) SailNet is wrong in lacking the backbone to stand behind you, but the threat of litigation is probably a real one. If you were a paid moderator that's one thing, but as a volunteer (I assume it's volunteer) they have no liability to the content of any post on their forum, moderator or lowly minion. America grants freedom of speech but is also one of the few countries that allows suing for perceived monetary damages.

The last Atlantic City Sailboat Show I was at, might have been 2002 or 2003, the Tartan folks were correcting gelcoat cracks on a new boat while at the show. That's not an opinion.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

camaraderie said:


> To all who have posted since I last said thanks...again...Thank You.
> I will be in touch with those who have asked for a copy of the thread once I have put it all back in order from the google cache.


Please put me on that list Cam.
The Internet is our friend.


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## Johnrb (Sep 21, 2002)

Cam - sorry to see you leave under these circumstances. I look forward to your contributions as a land yachter though. I do understand Sailnets's position with respect to a SLAPP happy company and any costs associated with legal action. I just found this from a Tartan owner posted one year ago:

_"Earlier this evening I picked up papers that seek to punish me for telling the truth, asking tough & legitimate questions and expressing opinions based on hard data from other owners and dealers on things from stainless steel corrosion, sail drives corroding out, cracking and split epoxy hulls."

"Yes, that is right. Today I received a summons from an OH court that Novis Marine is attempting to use to prevent me from sharing all that I know and have discovered since May 2007 on the Tartan and C&C epoxy boats." _ 
Tartan and C&C Boats: Action: Customers Sue Novis. Re-Action: Novis Sues Customers

As for:


y111x said:


> Actually this made my day. Motivated me to join up and post. Good to see you gone.As a moderator you were biased and condescending. Also, I see you are still posting incorrect information. Hope they delete this thread too.


Likely a spammer kicked off by Cam.


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## nightowle (Aug 2, 2006)

Cam, you've hurt Tartan in ways they didn't think when attempting to silence you. This is the type of 'viral' marketing they never intended.....and will stay with them for a long, long time. What fools! And shame on Sailnet for not standing up for you. Check out: I hate starbucks.com as an example-- if their huge band of lawyers thought personal opinion was actionable, such thoughts would have been already quashed. But no....it's not worth raising the mainstream bad press they would get. (I only point to SBUX as an example...I'm a big fan of theirs). Hope to see your continued posts and advice in the future.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

George

add me to the list for a copy of that thread. And once again, thanks for all you contributions as a moderator, and your continuing contributions as a member.


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## saildork (Feb 20, 2007)

It saddens me that Cam is stepping down as a moderator. But it saddens me more, it's even frightening, that the SN management is so quick to go weak in the knees at the threat of legal action from the builder of a dangerously flawed product. What will they cave to next?

Many of us rely heavily on the knowledge, experience, guidance and opinions of contributors/moderators like Cam on matters of sail. This is especially important when contemplating purchasing one boat vs another. Where else are we going to get the unvarnished truth about the virtues of the many boats out there than in a forum like SN? I have found no other site that compares to the breadth and depth of knowledge I find here. But what good is it if we can only share 1/2 of the truth in this forum?

Shame on SailNet management for kowtowing to some corporate lawyer who can't handle the truth!


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

I'd be curious to know if sailnet even made one ounce of effort at looking into the seriousness of this threat. Did they actually have a lawyer take a look at what was really at stake? Seems to me a company struggling from other lawsuits might not have the ability to pursue a frivilous case.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Last night I sent a message to some of the moderators about a spammer that has recently posted on Sailnet's forums. When I did so previously, I'd get a nice little note from Cam that the bozo in question was toast... this morning I got nothing... and notice that the Spammer in question is now on more threads than it was last night.... 

It really is a loss for the Sailnet community, since I do think that Cam was the most active of the moderators we had.


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

Xort, I have been thinking the samething. I would also think a company like sailnet who is in the Internet publishing (catalog) would have authors and publishers coverage. There is a big difference between libel and opinion. The best example is the Texas Cattleman's Assoc vs. Oprah.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Bubb-

Just revisited the Sailnet Terms of Service... it clearly states:



> *Please remember that SailNet is not responsible for the contents of any message posted by SailNet members and we do not warrant the accuracy, completeness or usefulness of any information provided by SailNet members.*


Given this statement, I fail to see how Tartan could find Sailnet liable for what we, the users of the forum, posted.

I also find it very disappointing that Sailnet chose to give in to what is purely corporate bullying, by a company that has proven itself to be less than ethical in its business practices thus far.


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

Dog, I am sure if sailnet did not have insurance coverage for something like this, then the decision was made with regard to the cost of defense and Cam was thrown under the Bus or LIRR for you New Yorkers.


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> Bubb-
> 
> Just revisited the Sailnet Terms of Service... it clearly states:
> 
> ...


SD,
I'm sure you're already aware of this, but I'll mention it again... Sailnet is in the unenviable position of having to hire an attorney who is familiar with these kinds of issues just to make it go away. I think it's been made clear that Sailnet runs on razor-thin margins, which means they have to make a decision that runs against the very nature of an information-sharing forum. Years ago I worked for a small newspaper with a tiny budget. Everytime someone brought up a libel or slander issue, they had to look to the bottom line.

Consider this: Would you guys be happy to see Sailnet "stand its ground" but ultimately go away, or would you rather have Cam and everyone on this forum make their points and share this information over the course of several months (which has already happened), and see Sailnet back down but ultimately survive?

It isn't perfect. But I think in this case the perfect can be the enemey of the good. Cam provided a real public service, and so did Sailnet. I think we should all take a moment and try to appreciate the situation Sailnet is in.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

Yet another sterling example of the need for tort reform. Whether it's idiots suing to be rewarded for their own stupidity, activist groups suing to get their way, or corporate entities and other large groups suing to stifle dissent, the lawsuit has become the line of first defense.

With most politicians being lawyers, is it any wonder this is the one area where there is no call for regulation?

The right or wrong of Sailnet's decision is up to them. I would though, remind them that Sailnetters BUY things from Sailnet. Tartan doesn't even advertise (that I've ever seen) here. Evidently, they have decided it is better to please those who contribute NOTHING, than those who actually spend their dollars here, as well as make it a worthwhile destination to attract even more PAYING customers. After all, what's the point in saving the store, if you drive away your customers?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Who are you??? What have you done with Sailhog???

Ideally, Sailnet wouldn't have to back down to a corporate bully like Tartan, but I would rather see Sailnet survive, and hope they too learn something from this, and take measures to prevent having to fold to bullying in the future. Internet forums, like this one, are dependent on the goodwill of the users and if they do not provide an open and fair exchange of information, particularly those of public records on companies that have less than ethical business practices, that goodwill tends to go away.



sailhog said:


> SD,
> I'm sure you're already aware of this, but I'll mention it again... Sailnet is in the unenviable position of having to hire an attorney who is familiar with these kinds of issues just to make it go away. I think it's been made clear that Sailnet runs on razor-thin margins, which means they have to make a decision that runs against the very nature of an information-sharing forum. Years ago I worked for a small newspaper with a tiny budget. Everytime someone brought up a libel or slander issue, they had to look to the bottom line.
> 
> Consider this: Would you guys be happy to see Sailnet "stand its ground" but ultimately go away, or would you rather have Cam and everyone on this forum make their points and share this information over the course of several months (which has already happened), and see Sailnet back down but ultimately survive?
> ...


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

Hog and PB, both points are valid but we at the forum brought the problem to sailnet. Sailnet did not cause the problem for themselves. What I would like to see, is we must have some lawyers on the forum who on behalf of the members take this on Pro bono. I would write a check to help with the expenses.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

SD While George was probably the most active moderator, CD and I are still here. The fact that we did not respond to spam as quickly as we might have reflects the Thanksgiving holiday rather than some long term trend. 

As to Sailnet's unwillingness to go to war with Ross at Tartan/C&C, as much as I wish it were otherwise, and see Ross's threats as a bullying bluff that only further tarnishes my trust in Tartan/C&C, and suggests that only an idiot would buy a boat from a company with the kind of lack of responsibility reflected by this action, I completely undertand why Sailnet felt blackmailed into killing the thread by the threat of legal action. I would suggest that if the Sailnet board users wanted to fund a legal defence fund, the folks at Sailnet might reconsider their decision to engage in a battle with Tartan/C&C. Then again they may have better things to do with their time.

Jeff


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Good to know that we've got at least one moderator on the job still...  

I would definitely agree that any company that resorts to threats of legal action to kill off an open and honest discussion of themselves, their products and their current legal problems, has serious ethical issues. It would have been far more constructive and honorable for Tartan/Jackett/Novis/C&C to participate in a discussion of the issues and address them directly, rather than try to bury them. However, given the source of the problems at Tartan/C&C, I seriously doubt anyone in the management there is willing to try and discuss things openly or honestly. Their lack of integrity is appalling, but seems to be a bit more common in the marine industry than I'd care to think.


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## kbyte (Jun 6, 2007)

sailhog said:


> SD,
> 
> Consider this: Would you guys be happy to see Sailnet "stand its ground" but ultimately go away, or would you rather have Cam and everyone on this forum make their points and share this information over the course of several months (which has already happened), and see Sailnet back down but ultimately survive?


Sometimes you just have to stand your ground.

Once MacGregor, Hunter, Catalina, etc. find out that all it takes is one phone call to have all unflattering references to their products purged, there won't be a Sailnet anymore.

Will Jeff H be the next to resign because one of his always fascinating and insightful critiques rubbed someone the wrong way?

Sailnet has at least as much to lose by caving in as they do from "standing their ground".


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Folks...I am going to ask that you lay off Sailnet on this. While the initial reaction to pull the thread was knee-jerk, I can tell you that over the last few weeks ALL of the senior management (i.e. owners) of Sailnet have agonized over this decision. This is a VERY small company trying to make ends meet in VERY tough times. They tried to find a way to make it happen but felt (and I agree), that the possibility of a lawsuit was virtually a certainty. Defending themselves would cost a minimum of $25k even if the suit was thrown out early. That would cost someone's job. 
Their comittment must be to their business and their employees first however much they would wish it could be otherwise. There is no doubt in my mind that they would have fought this if they could. No one has thrown me under the bus...I simply stepped off.


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## TheFrog (Oct 25, 2007)

Cam,

To echo the rest here, thank you for your hard work volunteering as moderator. I look forward to reading your future posts, especially since you will no longer need to pull any punches


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

While I can certainly understand the pragmatic need to appease someone threatening a possibly damage legal action, I think it is to the best that Sailnet understands the opinions of it's members as well. After all, the main point here is open and honest discussion.

I doubt any objective person denies Sailnet felt a need for the action they took, nor deny them the right to take what ever action they feel is necessary. That though, doesn't mean we, as members and many of us as customers, shouldn't register our opinions.


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

sailingdog said:


> Bubb-
> 
> Just revisited the Sailnet Terms of Service... it clearly states:
> 
> Given this statement, I fail to see how Tartan could find Sailnet liable for what we, the users of the forum, posted.


As I stated earlier, and as any U.S. land-shark will tell you: In the U.S. you can sue anybody, at any time, for anything. Simply posting a "not responsible" disclaimer does not make one lawsuit-proof. One would think, for example, that anybody would know that steps and walkways can and will be slippery in icy, snowy weather, no? Yet many U.S. lawyers make a living off of "slip and fall injury" lawsuits. Posting a warning sign saying "Warning: May be slippery. Use at your own risk" will not save you. C'mon, dog, we're talking a country whose legal system is so broken a criminal can sue a property owner for injuries sustained while committing a crime on said property. You know this. We all know this. Tort law brokenness like this is why states passing so-called "Castle Doctrine" and "Stand Your Ground" laws generally add provisions prohibiting criminals and their relatives from suing people who've legitimately defended themselves with force. (The land-sharks, of course, fight these kinds of provisions tooth-and-nail.) Broken tort law is why the U.S. Congress had to pass a law protecting firearms manufacturers from frivolous lawsuits. Trial lawyers fought *that* one, too.

Sailnet did what it had to do. I find it unfortunate, but I can't knock 'em for it.

You want to stop this kind of nonsense? Hire better lawmakers, instead of the same old types, lawyers, mostly, these days, you've _been_ hiring. (And I say "you," because you won't often find _me_ voting for a mainstream Republicrat anymore.)

Jim


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## eryka (Mar 16, 2006)

Cam .. thanx for your contributions, and your integrity. Looking forward to hearing more from you as a Sailnet "civilian"


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Jeff_H said:


> SD While George was probably the most active moderator, CD and I are still here. The fact that we did not respond to spam as quickly as we might have reflects the Thanksgiving holiday rather than some long term trend.
> 
> As to Sailnet's unwillingness to go to war with Ross at Tartan/C&C, as much as I wish it were otherwise, and see Ross's threats as a bullying bluff that only further tarnishes my trust in Tartan/C&C, and suggests that only an idiot would buy a boat from a company with the kind of lack of responsibility reflected by this action, I completely undertand why Sailnet felt blackmailed into killing the thread by the threat of legal action. I would suggest that if the Sailnet board users wanted to fund a legal defence fund, the folks at Sailnet might reconsider their decision to engage in a battle with Tartan/C&C. Then again they may have better things to do with their time.
> 
> Jeff


Okay, then - it's money versus mouth time. Sailnet: set up a LD fund - then provide a link in the store for contributions. Easy as pie*. Bubb has offered to contribute. I'll do so as well. Who's with us?

We also need a lawyerin' Sailnet yachtsman to join the fray and work stupid cheap - you know, for beer money. Where's Surfesq when you need him? He'd be perfect.

Let's grass roots these Tartan chuckleheads!

Otherwise, all we have around here is a bunch of whining and arm-chair "I would haves...". And that gets pathetic real fast. What Sailnet has is a community that actually gives a damn - and if that community steps up you'll see results. It's clear that these Tartan dudes are engendering the exact opposite.

Let's show the Portuguese what we're made of!

Freedom!

(*Okay, I know there are issues with what to do with "unused" contributions, etc. - but surely you can figure this out. We want to help you guys fight. Let us help.)


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

*This just sucks!*

Cam,

Thanks for all you put up with and did for us over the years. As a moderator myself I have a deeper understanding than most about what you guys have to deal with and how difficult it can be. While it is too bad that Sailnet caved it is 150% understandable. Anyone with half a brain, and some case study, can see they would have easily won, but at how much legal expense to do so.

Scumbag companies prefer to employ lawyers on retainer or have them as a chief legal counsel or on staff so it really costs them little to be constantly running amok and threatening everyone with suit at a whim.

While I find the bullying of paying customers totally repugnant I find it even more offensive when it comes to free speech.

I suggest we blanket every boating blog and boating forum we can find
with direct links back to this post about the bullying Tartan/C&C has attempted.

Again Cam very sad to see you go.. Just think if they had been honorable, and just fixed the problems and made them go away, NONE of this every would have happened....


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## padean (Jul 5, 2001)

*Principles count*

I want to add my thanks for all your efforts as moderator, Cam. You will be missed in this regard, but as you can see by the volume and response of this post over the last 2 days, Sailnet lives on, and if probably stronger for all your efforts and ethical certitude. I hope that this thread, your original Tartan thread takes on a life of it's own over time, constantly acting as a reminder to any company so inclined that corporate threats and suppression can not overcome free exchange of valuable information by individuals.

We don't need to take up a collection to support our own legal action. The continued propagation of free and reasonable speech on this site will do more to demonstrate our commitment to a free exchange of information. I suspect that this thread is just what the corporate marketing types who like to control the flow of information lose sleep over.

Keep up the good work Sailnet!


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

smackdaddy said:


> (*Okay, I know there are issues with what to do with "unused" contributions, etc. - but surely you can figure this out. We want to help you guys fight. Let us help.)


Smack, they will no unused funds we are talkin' lawyers here. Anything left over after the litigation will go for hookers and booze.


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## AE28 (Jun 20, 2008)

Those who live by the sword die by the sword!!!


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

bubb2 said:


> Smack, they will no unused funds we are talkin' lawyers here. Anything left over after the litigation will go for hookers and booze.


Bubb - I like the way you think my man!

This thread is starting to sound like Cam's high school yearbook. Cam'll be fine. It's Sailnet we need to back here (which, in turn, will back Cam).

So, Sailnet, what's takin' you guys? Let's make something happen!


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

AE28 said:


> Those who live by the sword die by the sword!!!


I thought you left loser, your not even a man of your words.


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

Maine Sail said:


> I suggest we blanket every boating blog and boating forum we can find
> with direct links back to this post about the bullying Tartan/C&C has attempted.


Then all they have to do is *cough* appraise Sailnet's ownership of the possible consequences of leaving _this_ thread up, which, to my amateur "legal" mind, consists of nothing more than hearsay, anyway, and *poof* - this one'll be gone, too.

This is the downside of web forums such as this. There's a single point-of-failure. Back in the primitive old days we used mailing lists and Usenet news. The good/bad thing about those was once it was out, it was out. No calling it back.

Jim


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## djodenda (Mar 4, 2006)

So, Cam... Now that you are going to have a bit of extra time on your hands , I think it's time for you to start planning your Sailnet Grand Tour.

In the Tour, you drive your land yacht to other Sailnetters, and visit us, while we ply you with drinks and sailing as a thank you for all your hard work as a moderator, and you future contributions as an active member.

It usually stops raining in the PNW during July and August. You should plan on being here then. You'll have a choice of boats, depending on your preferences:

Want a comfortable pilothouse to protect you from rain and cold? jrd22
Don't really want to sail, but want to see a wood boat in pieces? CharlieCobra
Want to help figure out what all the ropes do on a Barberis 38? artbyjody
Like extreme fractional rigs and think it's cool that a coin is called a "loonie"? faster
Want to see how to (over) organize a boat? erps
Want to remember how to use a tiller? blt2ski
Interested in BBQ? djodenda

Come on over.. We're waiting for you!

David


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

AE28 said:


> Those who live by the sword die by the sword!!!


Look, AE coming from one who at times is also driven crazy by Cam (as I've told him plenty of times), I understand some people wanting to take shots at him. BUT, open your eyes, dude! Cam's not the real issue here.

The real question is are you willing to fight for this forum that you're a member of? I am. So either sword up - or shut up.

I'm smackdaddy, and I approve this message.


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

Smack, please read.

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/off-topic/49312-please-delete-my-membership-site.html


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## tonybinTX (Feb 22, 2008)

Cam - good on you for striking a balanced view of the situation and standing by your values. 

Unfortunately for the rest of us, those are the qualities that make a good moderator. May I suggest a political career? You'd get my vote!

Take care and hope you continue as an active, vocal participant of sailnet.

TonyB


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

AE28 said:


> Those who live by the sword die by the sword!!!


Congratulations, you have now confirmed your loser status by saying you were leaving and then not leaving.  Why am I not surprised?

Jim


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## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

AE28 said:


> Those who live by the sword die by the sword!!!


You still here?:laugher :laugher :laugher


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

bubb2 said:


> Smack, please read.
> 
> http://www.sailnet.com/forums/off-topic/49312-please-delete-my-membership-site.html


Thanks Bubb. I'd heard of him. So either he now does something worthwhile - or he doesn't.

So what do you say AE? Speaking "troll-to-troll" here, do you have the stones to move on or not?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Not arguing the point that the US legal system is royally and truly F***** up. My family was behind one of the most comprehensive drunk driving ignition interlock laws in the country, and even with the state senate's backing couldn't get it out beyond the committee, primarily due to the trial lawyers lobbyists killing it. It is far more profitable to have people killed by repeat drunk drivers and have lawsuits than it is to solve the problem.

If the courts required the losing side to pay the fees of the winning side, and would disbar lawyers who brought too many frivolous lawsuits, the number of frivolous lawsuits would drop dramatically, as would the costs of insurance, and the courts could concentrate on more important things.



SEMIJim said:


> As I stated earlier, and as any U.S. land-shark will tell you: In the U.S. you can sue anybody, at any time, for anything. Simply posting a "not responsible" disclaimer does not make one lawsuit-proof. One would think, for example, that anybody would know that steps and walkways can and will be slippery in icy, snowy weather, no? Yet many U.S. lawyers make a living off of "slip and fall injury" lawsuits. Posting a warning sign saying "Warning: May be slippery. Use at your own risk" will not save you. C'mon, dog, we're talking a country whose legal system is so broken a criminal can sue a property owner for injuries sustained while committing a crime on said property. You know this. We all know this. Tort law brokenness like this is why states passing so-called "Castle Doctrine" and "Stand Your Ground" laws generally add provisions prohibiting criminals and their relatives from suing people who've legitimately defended themselves with force. (The land-sharks, of course, fight these kinds of provisions tooth-and-nail.) Broken tort law is why the U.S. Congress had to pass a law protecting firearms manufacturers from frivolous lawsuits. Trial lawyers fought *that* one, too.
> 
> Sailnet did what it had to do. I find it unfortunate, but I can't knock 'em for it.
> 
> ...


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Sorry for the late replys. I was a the boat (and travelling this weekend for Thanksgiving). DId not get back until about midnight last night. Spent the last 2-3 hours trying to catch up here. 

I will post more in a bit. 

Brian

PS George, you did what you had to do. Support you 100%, as I have said.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

So, SD, remembering how well seat belt interlocks worked and how the explosive charges in air bags sometimes just explode...you want me to install more landmines in my car?

Technology is not the answer. Do as in Finland, drive drunk, spend a year in jail, no discussion about it. Or do as we used to do in the US: Put rooms and a whorehouse upstairs over the bar, let the boys sleep it off without driving.

Or simply, require the bars to be located 1/2 mile from their parking lots.

Just don't add more crap to my car or anyone else's, that's what's going to keep killing those technotoys.

Forget the lawyers, assemble the black gang on deck and let's just go have a quiet keel-hauling party to familiarize the attorneys with the admiralty law.

No doubt we'll need an EPA permit to do THAT simple job these days as well.


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

camaraderie said:


> First let me say that this is no joke and allow me to thank the many good friends and members who have made my job as moderator worthwhile and lent their support in tough times. I am NOT leaving sailnet; just ending my tenure as a moderator. Now let me get into why.
> 
> As many are aware, I started a "Prospective Tartan Buyers" thread here in summer of 2007. My initial purpose was to make members aware that there were reports of Tartan/C&C hull and outdrive problems and that a couple of owners had filed suit. I took no side then on that issue but merely alerted potential customers to a possible issue and suggested that buyers get a survey done and/or investigate the reports on their own. A year and a half and 464 posts later, the thread had taken on a life of its own and many unflattering facts had come to light about the management and legal and financial position of the company while the original issue I raised has still not been settled by the courts. It is not my intention to re-hash that thread here. The important thing to me is that the thread alerted fellow sailors to the possibility of some product problems that could possibly be a major issue at sea AND that Tartan/Novis has well over $1million dollars in judgment liens OPEN against them and several more suits pending. Prospective buyers should be aware of this so that they can take steps to protect themselves before taking possession of a boat or making deposits.
> 
> ...


Cam- I would like to applaude your sticking to your principles in this day and age when so many believe that right and wrong exist in some sort of gray area. Thank you, it says volumes about you and your character.

I do have to take exception with your statement, that I highlighted above, reguarding Sailnet not being the cause of the thread in question being deleted. On the contrary, they are FULLY responsible for what they have posted on their site and solely responsible for anything that gets deleted. That is, after all, the whole point of this. Sailnet chose not to stand behind their members, their moderator, and the ever dimming concept of Freedom of Speech. I understand the economic issues that lead Sailnet to the decision they made. I also understand the economics of MY wallet and where I choose to use it. I prefer my money to go to companies with a bit more moral and ethical fortitude. ( A concept that gets harder by the day.)

While I am a very happy Tartan owner, I am also shopping for that perpetual "Next Boat". In light of the current issues with Tartan/Novis and their strong arm tactics with this forum, my next boat WILL NOT be a Tartan or C&C since they seem to have forgotten that their "moral compass" is riding around in my right back pocket.


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## josrulz (Oct 15, 2006)

Hi Cam, I just want to say thanks for your contributions on Sailnet, and input on my boat-buying questions along the way. I appreciate your help, and I hope you'll continue to be around on Sailnet. 
Thanks,
J


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Everyone,

First of all, let me say this: Do not blame Sailnet. They did what they had to do. They contempleted this matter for a long time and we had many discussions over it, including a very lengthy conference call. It seems we have a flawed system in our country... very flawed. You can file a lawsuit for almost nothing, but the cost of defense is extraordinary. By the thime you have retained a law firm (one that is decent), and given them 400 posts to read and let them review previous cases, etc, you will be looking at some HUGE bills. Would they have won? I certainly believe so. But at what cost? And to who? 

Would YOU have potentially laid someone off at Christmas and the holidays? Would you have risked closing down the board? Would you have pulled your board/officers away from trying to make the most out of sales in a tough time to coming up with defnse strategies? Also remember that when you win, you have won nothing. You could counter sue - but what would you gain? Tartan apparently has more lawsuits than they can shake a stick at and is trying to sell itself off. Honestly - what would you have won?

Virtuous decisions are easy when they are free and without conscequence. When they are not, you must stand back and weigh your decisions with the reprocussions. This was not just about standing up for right or wrong. Again, I do not blame Sailnet. I would have begrudgingly made the same decision. So would George.

George is a great friend and was an outstanding moderator. He spent more time on this board than almost any other member. He definitely took the bulk of the moderating duties - but did so with pleasure. I support his decisions 100%. Of course he knows this. I am simply glad I was able to rope him into helping me as long as he did. 

Thanks again, my friend,

Brian


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

AE28 said:


> Those who live by the sword die by the sword!!!


Bearing a grudge against someone else for your own actions, as usual. You did it with Alex and now with George. You must be a wonderful person to hang around with.

- CD


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

CD-

Please don't let all the new found power rush to your head...


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

Cruisingdad said:


> Everyone,
> 
> First of all, let me say this: Do not blame Sailnet. They did what they had to do. They contempleted this matter for a long time and we had many discussions over it, including a very lengthy conference call. It seems we have a flawed system in our country... very flawed. You can file a lawsuit for almost nothing, but the cost of defense is extraordinary. By the thime you have retained a law firm (one that is decent), and given them 400 posts to read and let them review previous cases, etc, you will be looking at some HUGE bills. Would they have won? I certainly believe so. But at what cost? And to who?
> 
> ...


I continue to be impressed by the quality of the writing and the thoughts expressed by our moderators. CD, I struggled with writing something similar to what you just wrote this morning, but I never posted it because I couldn't get it to sound right. You just said it better than I could have hoped to. Thanks.

We all can debate the pros and cons of our legal system until the cows come home, but it is what it is, and nothing we say or write will change the repercussions of Sailnet's decision. Many Sailnetters have posted to this forum about how "spineless" and "thoughtless" Sailnet was in "caving in". However, the only people who are in a position to truly judge Sailnet's actions here (Cam and CD) have both said that they agree with the decision, as distasteful as they may find it.


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## TxLnghrn (Apr 22, 2008)

Cruisingdad said:


> Bearing a grudge against someone else for your own actions, as usual. You did it with Alex and now with George. You must be a wonderful person to hang around with.
> 
> - CD


Brian,
AE did ask for his account to be deleted. I vote you grant him his wish.

AE, if your still around. It's okay you don't need to give two weeks notice to quit. Just go.

Michael


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

TxLnghrn said:


> Brian,
> AE did ask for his account to be deleted. I vote you grant him his wish.
> 
> AE, if your still around. It's okay you don't need to give two weeks notice to quit. Just go.
> ...


Michael,

I responded to him in that thread.

Brian


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## LittleMissMagic (Oct 13, 2006)

Cam,
It was an honor to have you as the moderator for this board. We will all be sad to see your tenure end. I hope you really will stay around to let us share your wealth of knowledge.

ALL, 
Maybe we should all contact said boat manufacturer using our own channels and let them know that most of their prospective customers feel that thier actions were lowly and less than honorable. Maybe they should think about improving their product instead of attacking critics.


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

I am also very sorry to see Cam step down. He was a "flagship" here for Sailnet as a moderator; and I can't think of anyone who would do so well as a non-biased and even-handed replacement as Cam.

On the issue of Sailnet pulling the thread; well I can see both sides. While freedom of speech is a fundamental right in the US; well most of the slander/libel laws are there to protect companies from non-truthful accounts by the "freedom" of others to speak. And nowadays a company can simply make a threat to sue and get results because of associated legal costs. I'm not saying this is "right" but it is a reality of our legal system and without the ability to sue (tort reform) there would also be no balance for those who have problems with the actions of companies like "Brand-X" boat mfr. We live in a society where there IS freedom of speech; but it better be truthful! I think that our ability to speak freely has only been improved with the internet and forums who are willing to provide a forum like Sailnet; and we should be thankful (this is Thanksgiving BTW) that we do have these freedoms because so much of the world in this 21'st century still does not.

We need to take a step back and look at the potential for what could have happened if Sailnet did not pull the thread; we would all be without a forum, and it is -very possible- that some people who posted to the thread in question would be getting sued personally via the Sailnet disclaimer (your posts belong to YOU and are not the opinion of Sailnet). It's very important to remember this in your future posts; whatever company you bad-mouth could potentially come back at you with a libel suit. Sailnet has no control over the actions of outside companies and without completely dis-allowing discussion of products they simply can't protect themselves much less us from the litigious world. I think it was a wise decision for Sailnet to pull that thread, save them-self as a company, preserve the Sailnet Community, and protect some members from personal lawsuits. In doing this they may have conceded the battle over our freedom to speak on that particular issue; but they have preserved our ability to speak freely about everything else! Personally I think "Brand-X" boat mfr should go belly up at this point before they finish ruining the names of respected former boat builders; and with actions against their own customer base it will not be too long before they do.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

While it is certainly possible to go after each individual poster, it is unlikely except in the most obvious case of libel or slander, because they would have to start those legal proceedings without knowing who they were trully going after just to get the users personal info from SailNet.


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

I think. we that are going to be at the boat show in Chicago could wear T-shirts that read : Ask me why I won't buy a Tartan.


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## drgamble (Oct 28, 2008)

Cam - you will be missed. As most of my time on sailnet has been searching and reading prior threads, your posts have been consistently well thought out and insightful and have been a big help to someone relatively new to sailing and this forum.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Also, a corporation is generally going to go after whomever has the deepest pockets... so they'd most likely target the company rather than the individual members.


werebeagle said:


> While it is certainly possible to go after each individual poster, it is unlikely except in the most obvious case of libel or slander, because they would have to start those legal proceedings without knowing who they were trully going after just to get the users personal info from SailNet.


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## FormerAdministrator (Jan 10, 2000)

I would remind everyone that 'bad-mouthing" - aka bashing is not permitted on Sailnet. If you have a gripe with the company, pick up the phone and attempt work it out. Perhaps some more of that right now between India and Pakistan might diffuse growing tensions.

Regardless; among other rules listed in out TOS (Terms of Service)- here are the biggies:

* Have been untruthful during the sign-up process

* Post the same message in multiple forums - this is a forum rules violation

* Post messages promotion a commercial enterprise - this is only permitted for paying SailNet Advertisers

* Include links in your postings to commcerial enterprises in an effort to promote those enterprises regardless of your personal involvement in that enterprise - this is only permitted for paying SailNet Advertisers

* Register under multiple names in an attempt to hide your true identity and post under multiple screen names

* Post messages that are objectionable and meant to offend or incite conflict

* Cause undue labor on the part of volunteer moderators in the mediation of disputes arising from your posts

* Access this forum to gain knowledge of our features, promotions or programming techniques for use in enhancing competitive websites

* Use this forum to post messages that are meant to embarrass other members in an attempt to settle personal disputes.

* Exploit this forum by contacting members to sell products and services privately instead of becoming paying advertisers (Especially Vendors, Merchants, Dealers & Brokers)

* Join this forum and use it to berate a vendor, dealer or manufacturer. If you've got an axe to grind please go elsewhere.
------------------------------------ ###

As was demonstrated in the courts week in MYspace Suicide case, members of websites are bound by the Terms of Service whether they read them or not.

If you're determined to be heard and your posts/opinions would violate the SailNet Terms of Service Agreement you are always free to start a YAHOO Group and post your opinions there.
*
We at SailNet understand Camaraderie's decision, he understands ours and we have nothing but respect for each other.*


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> Also, a corporation is generally going to go after whomever has the deepest pockets... so they'd most likely target the company rather than the individual members.


Maybe; maybe not. If there are enough in-duh-viduals they could just add names to their list of defendants looking for a larger pool of money; and to add more substance to their lawsuit.



administrator said:


> If you're determined to be heard and your posts/opinions would violate the SailNet Terms of Service Agreement you are always free to start a YAHOO Group and post your opinions there.


Right; and of course that is subject to YAHOO's long-winded TOS contract


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

If having an opinion about the actions of a sailboat manufacture and stating that you don't agree with that decision constitutes bashing, then there is no point in any of us being here. In fact there is no point in this site even existing.

*Virtuous decisions are easy when they are free and without conscequence.*

And doing business is easy when it is done in a moral vacum. We all have to make hard decisions, both personally and professionally. Sometimes those decisions are made to a financial ends, and sometimes they are made because it is the right thing to do. Either way, you live with the consequences.


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## Jonesee (Nov 17, 2007)

camaraderie said:


> Folks...I am going to ask that you lay off Sailnet on this. While the initial reaction to pull the thread was knee-jerk, I can tell you that over the last few weeks ALL of the senior management (i.e. owners) of Sailnet have agonized over this decision. This is a VERY small company trying to make ends meet in VERY tough times. They tried to find a way to make it happen but felt (and I agree), that the possibility of a lawsuit was virtually a certainty. Defending themselves would cost a minimum of $25k even if the suit was thrown out early. That would cost someone's job.
> Their comittment must be to their business and their employees first however much they would wish it could be otherwise. There is no doubt in my mind that they would have fought this if they could. No one has thrown me under the bus...I simply stepped off.


Cam, there is insurance to cover just these types of lawsuits. It would be irresponsible for the owners of SN not to carry these covereages. At least as irreponsible as driving without insurance. I noticed that you never said their insurance company was ever involved/consulted.

There are 3 companies that specialize in this type of coverage and have for a while:

Lloyds of London
Media/Professional
AON (if I'm not mistaken, Aon may have purchased Media a while back)

If SN is not insured, SHAME ON THEM.. If they are insured they should have never backed down without consulting with the attorneys of their insurance carrier and let them look at the factual basis, intent and inherrent risk.

I can understand an individual folding under the threat, but if SN is insured, they should have never backed down. If for no other reason than they are acting as if they are guilty if there is ever a lawsuit brought later. Additionally, SN should have never pulled the thread without a Hold harmless and total release from Novis on their behalf to prevent any future action.

I understand we don't have the complete story and maybe attorneys and insurance companies were all brought on board. Maybe SN received a release in return for pulling the thread. But if not, SN needs to realize they are a grown-up business with grown-up problems and start managing their affairs in a more professional manner.

Cam, I completely understand your actions. I admire a man who makes a stand on what he believes is right. I wish it hadn't of happened, but do us all a favor and continue to post frequently. We all benefit.


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

Dear Administrator,
If we inform you of misbehavior on the part of particular members, will we be entitled to a steep discount at the Sailnet store?

Just asking.


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## alaska67 (Jan 3, 2008)

*how is warning*

how is warning potential buyers to what is already public knowledge bashing? as of yet i have not seen any bashing in this thread and only concern over the rash decision by tartan to threaten sailnet with suit over forum members doing other sailors a service. anyway tartan got what they deserve this topic is quite hot right now on multiple forums and on one of them the admins will simply tell them to go screw themselves. what they've done and who they've not paid and who they have blamed for splitting hulls is all public and already out there in the public domain. if they wanted attention they certainly got it. if you guys want a good place to discuss the tartan issue go to the sailing forum that has virtually no rules. those of you who know also know where to go.


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## Sapperwhite (Oct 21, 2006)

Cam is really just conflicted between his time as moderator here and his time as megaposter at RV Forum - Home (think SD post rate on four wheels).


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

T34C said:


> If having an opinion about the actions of a sailboat manufacture and stating that you don't agree with that decision constitutes bashing, then there is no point in any of us being here. In fact there is no point in this site even existing.


It's Sailnet's DUTY to uphold the TOS contract to the best of it's ability; which is the contract YOU agreed to abide to when you signed up for your account here. There is a huge amount of things to talk about other than "bashing" on various mfr's; evident in all of the posts and threads in the forums. Let's not drag down the entire site over one ill-fated thread.

I'd like to know if it is allowed to discuss the T/C&C problems and issues in a way that would be protect Sailnet from litigation; like if it were in agreement with the TOS contract; or is this subject now "Taboo" for the Sailnet Forum (should IT be moved to YAHOO)? (Administrator- You may answer with a uke emoticon for YAHOO; a  for Sailnet)


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## FormerAdministrator (Jan 10, 2000)

:laugher :laugher


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## FormerAdministrator (Jan 10, 2000)

sailhog said:


> Dear Administrator,
> If we inform you of misbehavior on the part of particular members, will we be entitled to a steep discount at the Sailnet store?
> 
> Just asking.


no, but I'll buy you a beer at Waterman's Crab House in Rock Hall, MD next summer.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Just as a head's up... Cam, your actions have been noticed over at the SBO forums. 

*LINK*

By having Sailnet pull the thread, Tartan may have opened a can of worms that would have been better left closed.


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

KeelHaulin said:


> It's Sailnet's DUTY to uphold the TOS contract to the best of it's ability; which is the contract YOU agreed to abide to when you signed up for your account here. There is a huge amount of things to talk about other than "bashing" on various mfr's; evident in all of the posts and threads in the forums. Let's not drag down the entire site over one ill-fated thread.
> 
> I'd like to know if it is allowed to discuss the T/C&C problems and issues in a way that would be protect Sailnet from litigation; like if it were in agreement with the TOS contract; or is this subject now "Taboo" for the Sailnet Forum (should IT be moved to YAHOO)? (Administrator- You may answer with a uke emoticon for YAHOO; a  for Sailnet)


That post had NO conection to the "ill fated" thread.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

BTW, its also on the Sailfar small boat forum: *LINK*


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

Cam,
Nothing but respect for ya buddy, but no, I will not lay off.

Further posts from the Admin in this thread have shown that further postings discussing negative aspects about ANY product that we, the users of said product have found to be defective will not be permitted.

Frankly, if I want happy speak about a boat product I'll read one of the many sailing magazines out there, none of which (Practical Sailor excepted) ever posts anything REAL in fear of losing advertising.

Time to take my persona elsewhere, or just bomb around in off topic, as a sailing site this forum has jumped the shark.


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

Chuck-

If you re-read my question about IF we can post about Tartan/C&C and their associated problems; the answer from the Administrator was YES. The problem I think with the prior thread was that it had some posts that were not within the TOS of Sailnet and so they did not have any legal ground other than to pull the thread. So again; if Joe Poster going to say something about "Brand-X"; be sure that it is within the realm of the truth. Not speculation, not "ranting" as a disgruntled owner; just the facts.


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

administrator said:


> no, but I'll buy you a beer at Waterman's Crab House in Rock Hall, MD next summer.


Well, I don't want to come off as a rat, but Sapper farted in Off Topic and tried to blame it on Alex. He also used a couple of curse words and gave me the address to a porn site.

So... where's my beer?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Cam,
You'll be sorely missed as a moderator. Best of luck and glad to hear you'll be staying active.


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## jimmalkin (Jun 1, 2004)

Cam - I have nothing to add but to embarrass you by saying that you are one of the most thoughtful, helpful and knowledgeable moderators/contributors to any site that I know. Your attention to detail and your concern for content and membership have been outstanding.

And since I work in a company that hosts a number of websites - I should tell you that we have a standard legal letter stating the legislative immunity and case law that applies to the hosts of sites that link communities. I respond at least weekly to various threats by sending the letter to threatening parties. Unfortunately, we still wind up in a couple of dozen cases a year needing to employ lawyers to go through the next steps which usually wind up with the complaining party dealing directly with the owner of the IP address that posted the offending remark.

This is a huge time and expense burden, but unfortunately in many cases it is not if you're right or wrong, but if you've got the best lawyer on the day.

Sad to see your mature presence leave the moderating post. Thanks, Cam.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

It strikes me that although the man has no relationship or presumably interest in Tartan, George Cuthbertson (the surviving "C" in "C&C Yachts") is still alive and kicking and might find this interesting.

I have no e-mail for him (unsurprising as he's pushing 90) but I do have a phone number as he is a social member of my club.

He might be a force of "moral suasion" should he realize that his name and legacy are being associated with corporate bullies.

EDIT: I'll wager this organization C&C Yachts - C&C Photo Album & Resource Center would like to have that thread forwarded to them...you know, "consumer alert" sort of thing.

The C&C label still is huge around here due to the Canadian-built aspect and the fact that the pre-Tartan era models are hard to kill and still sail (and sell) very well for increasingly antique boats. Adverse publicity would not earn Tartan friends here...and the Toronto International Boat Show (with expensive Tartans on sale) is a mere five weeks away.


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## NCountry (May 25, 2006)

In a restaurant bar one night I unknowling told a judge that our current legal system is "all the justice you can afford to buy". He went ballistic and started yelling at me in a very "un-judicial" like manor. Upon realizing what I had done I thought for a minute then responded with "Gee...if I had known you were a judge I would have made the statement sooner". Experience over the years has proven me right. Dang it, I sure miss the good ole US where all you had to be was right. Now you can be wrong and rich and win in court.


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

Val-

I think it's just best to let George C. live his retirement in peace and hopefully with fair winds and following seas. HE is very well respected in the sailing community and will not be remembered for the current state of the brand-name "C&C" which he had founded. IIRC "C&C" was sold off more than 20 years ago and has survived more than one failed holding company because the name brand he and Cassian developed was so strong. If he is keeping up witht the current state of affairs with Tartan/C&C I hope it is not wearing heavily on his mind or on his health. There is not much he can do anyway; that all lies with the current owner(s) in terms of their design efforts, customer service, and public relations. In reading about the issues it seems that all three areas need some serious improvement or the "under new management" banner might be flying again soon for Tartan/C&C.


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## travler37 (Mar 30, 2007)

*Simply a printer......*

Tartan Yachts Product Inquiries

I have resigned as moderator.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

First let me say that this is no joke and allow me to thank the many good friends and members who have made my job as moderator worthwhile and lent their support in tough times. I am NOT leaving sailnet; just ending my tenure as a moderator. Now let me get into why.

As many are aware, I started a "Prospective Tartan Buyers" thread here in summer of 2007. My initial purpose was to make members aware that there were reports of Tartan/C&C hull and outdrive problems and that a couple of owners had filed suit. I took no side then on that issue but merely alerted potential customers to a possible issue and suggested that buyers get a survey done and/or investigate the reports on their own. A year and a half and 464 posts later, the thread had taken on a life of its own and many unflattering facts had come to light about the management and legal and financial position of the company while the original issue I raised has still not been settled by the courts. It is not my intention to re-hash that thread here. The important thing to me is that the thread alerted fellow sailors to the possibility of some product problems that could possibly be a major issue at sea AND that Tartan/Novis has well over $1million dollars in judgment liens OPEN against them and several more suits pending. Prospective buyers should be aware of this so that they can take steps to protect themselves before taking possession of a boat or making deposits.

Imagine my surprise when Sailnet took this thread off line in late October. 
To make a long story short... William Ross, President of Novis/Tartan called Sailnet management to complain about the "biased" nature of the thread and asked them to take it down. He made it clear that there was a possibility of legal action if they did not.

Sailnet management removed the thread without understanding the content or context since they do NOT follow this board closely. They did understand the math...remove the thread at no cost...or face a possible lawsuit costing 10's of thousands of dollars.

Over the last few weeks, CruisingDad and I have been trying to help Sailnet management understand the thread and they have come to realize, I believe, that there is a moral issue here and a free speech issue as well as a business issue. The bottom line is that despite what they might like or choose to do in normal times... they simply cannot afford to get involved in a lawsuit even if there is an overwhelming likelihood that they would eventually win. I was told that they would have to lay someone off to be able to fight a suit. Given that stark choice, I told Sailnet that I would probably make the same decision to delete the thread... but could no longer remain a moderator for a site that deletes a thread so important to sailors.

So folks...that is the unvarnished truth. I am not sure if this post will be allowed to stand or be deleted too and would ask my friends to make copies of it so that if it is deleted, it may go viral!

I want to once again state that I bear NO ill will to anyone at sailnet as they are not the CAUSE of the thread being deleted...only the implementers and VERY reluctant ones at that. For those still interested in reading the content of the thread you can get it all but in bits and pieces at Google using their "cache" function and entering prospective tartan site:www.sailnet.com/forums in the google search box.

I intend to remain a contributing member here with my friends unless my posts start getting deleted in which case you can find me over at cruisersforum under the same screen name.

Again... thank you all for your support and understanding.

Cam
__________________
Moderation in temper is always a virtue; but moderation in principle is always a vice....Thomas Paine

And i push PRINT and make a reem of copies.Hand them out or simply place a few on a table...

betting the rest of the sellers would IGNORE THEM ON THE SIDE.........iF IT WAS NOT A TARTAN TABLE.............

I have read ,,,,,,,cant count but how many pages here saying byby to CAM....

For What??? Letting us know a ISSUE with TARTAN.......

And we/YOU the people type nice notes to him saying BYBY......

SHAME ON YOU ALL...............

Am going to CHICAGO AND ANAPOLIS THIS YEAR......
Bettting security asks me to leave for handing out $20 worth of paper...

And all of you saying BYBY should rethink your morals...

Hats off to Cam that stands for his........
Mark

Tartan Yachts Product Inquiries

Contact them and tell them about your,Not there, BOAT SHOW YOUR ATTENDING...with your ream of printed paper....


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

travler- I'm actually planning on making my presents a little more personal. Tim Jackett is usually at the Chicago Strictly Sail show.


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## dcarey (Jul 21, 2007)

Cam,

Just found out the other day where you are. We have been going just south of you for the last 28 years. Twice in the last three years I have done a delivery to Coinjock. Unfortunately didn't have time to go farther. If you're around in 8/09 I'ld love to stop by and shake your hand. Thanks for for all your input, advise, comments, wisdom, thoughts, etc., etc., etc..

Dave C


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I also plan on heading up to Chicago for the meet up, and will go by the boat show since I'm there. I will definitely stop by the Tartan booth, if there is one. While I'm not now or anytime in the foreseeable future in the market, they don't have to know that, and will have the impression that I was considering a Tartan before this happened.


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

Oh boy! AFOC conventioneers land in Cook Co jail! Hot time in January in the windy city.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Traveler37-

You're making an awful lot of assumptions about what people are or are not going to do.


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## Sapperwhite (Oct 21, 2006)

Did you check that site out yet? Its a one stop shop...



sailhog said:


> Well, I don't want to come off as a rat, but Sapper farted in Off Topic and tried to blame it on Alex. He also used a couple of curse words and gave me the address to a porn site.
> 
> So... where's my beer?


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## travler37 (Mar 30, 2007)

sailingdog said:


> Traveler37-
> 
> You're making an awful lot of assumptions about what people are or are not going to do.


 Realy?
Read Fish Food.

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/general-discussion-sailing-related/49359-cam-fish-food.html

I think 30 people reading this will be more than happy to give there time/paper/printer ink to SAVE SOMEONES JOB...And a mod...Read between the lines people....

Why do you think this is a low figure...Take 30..
my Question To You SIR
Mark


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

xort said:


> Oh boy! AFOC conventioneers land in Cook Co jail! Hot time in January in the windy city.


Like you haven't been there before!


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## travler37 (Mar 30, 2007)

T34C said:


> travler- I'm actually planning on making my presents a little more personal. Tim Jackett is usually at the Chicago Strictly Sail show.


 That is the CHICAGO show i am talking about..... 
Now if i stand in front of TARTAN'S booth handing out a ream of PRINTED paper while reading this???

Does SECURITY ESCORT ME OFF THE GROUNDS?
mark


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## retclt (Nov 7, 2006)

. . . . . . . Spooling . . . . . . . spooling . . . . . . . spooling . . . . . . . 

I'm gettin ready!

So we get to make new friends at County?


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

You know if you do start handing out propaganda at the Chicago SS you will be arrested. If Tartan/C&C is there; they are paying to have a booth and slips for their boats, where as you are a random group of protesters who did not get permission to protest or hand out anything that would defame the retailer who was given a permit to sell their product. It could not only land you in jail; but Tartan/C&C would probably sue your pants off for defamation, libel, etc, etc. Go ahead; do it... But don't say you were not warned. PLEASE STOP THIS CRAP BEFORE IT REVERTS BACK TO THEM THREATENING TO SUE SAILNET.


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## T37SOLARE (Feb 1, 2008)

> PLEASE STOP THIS CRAP BEFORE IT REVERTS BACK TO THEM THREATENING TO SUE SAILNET.


nuff said.....


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

If Tartan is paying for slips at the StrictlySail boat show in Chicago it might explain much about this matter. (g) FWIW, the show is on the last weekend of January.

I otherwise agree with Keelhaulin's points. It's enough to simply convey a strictly personal sentiment to a Tartan salesperson at the show. Anything more would just be grandstanding.

We should consider the implications for sailnet as well. Two things seem apparent. 1) Sailnet is likely to outlast Tartan in existence. 2) This has gone far enough now that one can honestly wonder how there will be any question asked anywhere on the internet, or elsewhere, regarding new Tartans that these issues will not be raised. (If Tartan was doing better they would have had someone on their staff with enough PR experience to advise them to just ignore these things...threats only garner more bad publicity and give backhanded credence to every charge, legitimate or not.

Let's leave it go, until you and I personally can have a real chance at making a difference that does not threaten our benefactor.


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## retclt (Nov 7, 2006)

KeelHaulin said:


> PLEASE STOP THIS CRAP BEFORE IT REVERTS BACK TO THEM THREATENING TO SUE SAILNET.


Fine!!!

I'll just enjoy the show. There's going to be some really good seminars there. Pizza, beer . . . 

I looked at the list of boats on display. I don't see how it's possible to have so many.


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

sailaway21 said:


> If Tartan is paying for slips at the StrictlySail boat show in Chicago it might explain much about this matter. (g) FWIW, the show is on the last weekend of January.


LOL! Forgot about the winter back there!! Our Strictly Sail is in April; and we never get any freezing so the boats are being shown and walked through at the slips in Jack London Square. Why the heck do they hold a sailing boat show in Chicago in January??


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

KeelHaulin said:


> LOL! Forgot about the winter back there!! Our Strictly Sail is in April; and we never get any freezing so the boats are being shown and walked through at the slips in Jack London Square. Why the heck do they hold a sailing boat show in Chicago in January??


I cannot believe I have to explain this! (g) In any sales operation, you "sell the sizzle, not the steak". When this is applied to boats it means you're not selling a boat, you're selling a dream. If you're familiar with the northern Midwest in late January/early February you'll know that summer is but a distant dream at that time. In fact hope for summer, and sailing, will reach it's nadir at the end of February when all sailors become convinced that, this year, winter will never leave. But, if you bought a boat at the show, you are brimming over with hope and you _know_ it's going to be a great and long summer. Boat salesmen are high dollar bartenders; they're dispensing dreams. In February, dreams are all we've got.


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

Very true; I understand the "boater's cabin fever" as so many people here become disgruntled and snippy in jan/mar as they await the spring. I guess since we don't live in snow country it's hard to imagine going to look at buying a boat when it is not dockside. Do they have floor models "on the hard" in the tents so that people can walk through and look at interiors? I remember going to look at powerboats many years ago at the Cow Palace in SF and they had lots of boats on display for prospective buyers. They still do this here and it usually is just before the warmer weather comes (for the same "dream selling" reasons I'm sure).


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

No tents at mccormick place. yes they do have boats on display for open perusal. it's a BIG place so there's plenty of room to display lots of boats. it's heated too!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

One clarification... if what is printed is factually true, it won't be defamatory... can't be in fact... Tartan can ***** about it all they want, but that still wouldn't make it defamatory. And yes, Tartan/C&C could sue, but the negative publicity they'd gain from doing so would probably far outweigh any gain they might get-financial or otherwise.



KeelHaulin said:


> You know if you do start handing out propaganda at the Chicago SS you will be arrested. If Tartan/C&C is there; they are paying to have a booth and slips for their boats, where as you are a random group of protesters who did not get permission to protest or hand out anything that would defame the retailer who was given a permit to sell their product. It could not only land you in jail; but Tartan/C&C would probably sue your pants off for defamation, libel, etc, etc. Go ahead; do it... But don't say you were not warned. PLEASE STOP THIS CRAP BEFORE IT REVERTS BACK TO THEM THREATENING TO SUE SAILNET.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Is this relevant?*

Our migratory trip South brought us in to Charleston SC late last month where we tied up close to a spanking new Tartan. I mean she gleamed from bow to stern! The owner, however, seemed quite downcast. We struck up a conversation and he explained that the boat was his dream but he'd been disappointed by the seemingly endless list of 'shakedown' issues. He was inclined to blame himself for not understanding that this was part of the process of taking the helm of a new boat.

The latest issue, he said, was that all the wiring in the mast was shot and would have to be replaced at the end of his trip South. All of this left me in a bit of a quandary. On the one hand I wanted to tell him he was far from alone in his experience with Kilty, on the other hand he'd already bought his parade, so why should I rain on it? In the end I simply didn't have the heart to add to his woes. Thhe truth, like murder, will out.

Thanks, Cam, for the enormous time, and effort and thinking seamanship you've poured in to this cyber shipyard.


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

sailaway21 said:


> If Tartan was doing better they would have had someone on their staff with enough PR experience to advise them to just ignore these things...threats only garner more bad publicity and give backhanded credence to every charge, legitimate or not.


This is a very good and overlooked point. For a tiny fraction of the cost of an attorney they could have had a marketing person monitor the thread and thoughtfully address the concerns that were being raised. If a sailor (potential future customer) said something that was innacurate or misleading, this Tartan representative could have politely pointed out the error in their logic. They would have had entre to a lot of sailors and generated an enormous amount of goodwill.

But no... Tartan had to offend nearly every subscriber to "The World's Largest Sailing Community" with the threat of a lawsuit...

This thread should be published in a PR textbook as a prime example of how companies should not deal with the public.


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> ... *if* what is printed is factually true...


Well, if *any* of it is not they have grounds; so unless you have a lawyer read all of it (more than once) you really don't know what could be considered libelous and what could not. If you re-print without permission something posted here to Sailnet; well you may also be putting yourself up for copyright violations as well (regardless of who posted it to Sailnet). We've seen some pretty strange actions from sue happy companies before so I would not expect a company with such track record not to sue a bunch of protesters who were arrested for an illegal demonstration/disruption of commerce during an economic recession at a boat show. That's like shooting ducks in a pond but I guess I'm just not the type to put my future at risk over a silly thing like protesting OP(new)B construction defects.


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

sailhog said:


> This is a very good and overlooked point. For a tiny fraction of the cost of an attorney they could have had a marketing person monitor the thread and thoughtfully address the concerns that were being raised. If a sailor (potential future customer) said something that was innacurate or misleading, this Tartan representative could have politely pointed out the error in their logic.


While this may sound true and logical; it may also be true that the lawyer(s) representing them on the hull failure claims told them not to say anything to the public. In addition their legal defense might have told them to try and get the thread pulled so that jurors can't read it outside of court if they search for more information. A consensus of opinion here could easily sway a jury to find against them and it might have been the reason they wanted the thread removed.

It ALL comes back to the company in terms of customer care and PR; and that is why it is best to avoid litigation and letting customers get angry enough to vent their anger to the public on personal websites. Once you "lawyer up" to fight your customer; there is no good PR...


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## alaska67 (Jan 3, 2008)

just an interesting observation. it took 1 1/2 years to get to 460+/- posts and with mr ross & crew heavy handing the forums this thread has hit 210 posts in just two days. it seems their muscle and intimidation tactics have backfired. the sa site will not bend over to bogus threats so anyone who wants should move this over to sa - sailing anarchy site where there is already a thread going on regarding the sailnet bs.

Tartan/C&C Bully Sailnet Into Pulling A Thread !!!! - Sailing Anarchy Forums


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

Not that you can draw too many parallels, but here's something to consider before taking a swipe at Sailnet...

Colo. man charged with libel over Craigslist posts - Yahoo! News


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## SteveRobison (Dec 2, 2008)

Nice to know how Tartan runs there business, sounds like a real can of worms.


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

retclt said:


> Fine!!!
> 
> I'll just enjoy the show. There's going to be some really good seminars there. Pizza, beer . . .
> 
> I looked at the list of boats on display. I don't see how it's possible to have so many.


NO PIZZA! Cheeze brger!!!


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

T34C said:


> NO PIZZA! Cheeze brger!!!


:laugher :laugher :laugher


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Admin - just a friendly note that you're probably already very aware of...

You guys need to be careful here. There is some serious potential blowback regarding your membership as this whole thing bleeds over into SA. I'm a member of both sites. I like it here because it's typically good clean fun (e.g. - "principled"). However, I like it there because it's no-holds-barred (e.g. - "free-fer-all").

Now think about that for a moment. If you're losing the "principled" argument with this Tartan thing and your membership is bleeding over to SA so they can say what they want because they feel that SA will "stand behind them" - you're in trouble. And that's doubly so due to the attitude over there about Sailnet.

Let me be very clear...I love Sailnet. I really do. ALL of us members - ESPECIALLY NOW - need to support it even if we don't agree with what the admins are doing. However, you admins need to think through the PR ramifications of your actions (especially in light of the spate of various member complaints we've seen in the past couple of months) just as we all know Tartan should have thought about the same. Bottom line: there are some very sobering similarities here. And that ain't good.

ALL US SAILORS need to ensure that this Tartan crap doesn't sink the wrong boat. That would really suck.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

One thing to remember, is that Sailnet is not a democracy. They can do whatever they please with the site. And, that's fine by me, I have no qualms with it.

If we expect them to listen to us though, then we have to make our concerns known in a respectful and non-threatening manner. I don't doubt they want our input, but they don't need us piling on either.

The ironic thing for Tartan is that now, instead of just bringing up quality issues, whenever asked about their boats, I'll be bringing up their business practices as well. And I can guarantee, they will be of a very negative measure.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

PBzeer said:


> One thing to remember, is that Sailnet is not a democracy. They can do whatever they please with the site.


Neither was Tartan. That's my point. Otherwise I agree with you PB. But one of the big differences I'm seeing here is that the admins themselves are just now coming into the fray. I offer that they need to be far more visible and active in addressing the various complaints and questions from their membership (as opposed to having the mods do that kind of heavy lifting). And that timing is now critical.

On thing that I think attracts people to SA - apart from it's anarchist bent - is that the founders themselves are involved in the forums. This lends a lot of credence to the site and makes the membership feel connected.

At this point, especially with Cam's resignation, the admins (whoever they are) would do well to involve themselves similarly. This is simply good PR for Sailnet - especially as many SA members are going to come over and poke around. My point is that this can either turn into a very good thing for Sailnet (solidarity of sailors) - or a very bad thing (loss of membership) - depending on how it's handled by those that have the most invested in this site.


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

smackdaddy said:


> Admin - just a friendly note that you're probably already very aware of...
> 
> You guys need to be careful here. There is some serious potential blowback regarding your membership as this whole thing bleeds over into SA.


I'm thinkin' "probably not." Two entirely different kinds of communities. The only thing shared being a love of sailing.

Jim


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## retclt (Nov 7, 2006)

smackdaddy said:


> ALL US SAILORS need to ensure that this Tartan crap doesn't sink the wrong boat. That would really suck.


Good point.

Hey daddy . . . . . . . get your glasses fixed!

.


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## N0NJY (Oct 19, 2008)

Stop, look, and listen.

I'm an Administrator of several sites - with... let's say years and years of experience.

I'm going to say two very important things here..... I hope someone listens carefully.

First, the BEST wishes to Cam - and thanks for the personal invitation I got to join this site from him. A Moderator has the most thankless task of all people in these forums. Their job doesn't end when the close down the computer and log out for the night. Moderators are, in essence what we call a "SME" - Subject Matter Experts.

When an admin hires one - if they've done their job right, and OBVIOUSLY in Cam's case the job was properly thought out - the person is reasonable beyond reproach, intelligent, "can spell" usually and has the maturity level of someone who seems to be much older in years than he or she really is.

Secondly, when an Admin (or OWNER of the site) makes a decision to remove material from a site based on a complaint and, perhaps not a legal response or "Cease and Desist Letter" (which in general CAN be ignored unless it involves copyrights.... but, then I'm not a lawyer, but I've spent time daring someone to sue me, to no avail... anyway)....the Admin is making a bad decision the first time out.

What I MEAN is simple. Removing something based solely on a complaint is tantamount to blackmail. Now, I say this without knowing the full details of what transpired. 

But what I read in the first message (Cam's) is that he was doing a FAVOR to the community by setting up the thread.

The Administration is NOT doing the community a favor by removing the material.

I have personally gone through this EXACT situation as both a Moderator and Administrator of some forums.

It never works out good for a site to remove material (unless that material is copyrighted without attribution, illegal/porn, spam or trolling) and damages a site in two ways.

1) It removes data from the site (perhaps not physically, but from being physically retrieved by posters and site visitors) and

2) It disrupts the "history" of the site - disallowing searches (and search engines) to find something others who might not even visit the site, to find.

My personal opinion here (and it's mine, so take it for what it's worth) - unless the material removed had a legal action associated with it (and I don't know, I've not read the whole thread) then it ought to be replaced forthwith.

If there is a legal reason for removing it (a lawyer is involved) then that ought to be explained to the original poster (in this case a moderator) as well as the public who might be seeking that information.

All that said, Admins do what Admins do, and site owners usually dictate things. While the site itself is a "privately owned site" (And I DO understand the situation, BELIEVE ME, more than you think) it still is providing a PUBLIC SERVICE, with FORCED ADs... 

In other words, I don't think that removing the material is a very good idea - at all, based solely on the fact that this site runs ads and forces the community as a whole to read and see those ads.

Since there are only a couple of good "Sail Forums" - most people will continue to visit for information, including me.

But I won't be offering much in the way of help on things in the future here.

I don't like to see Moderators treated with indifference and attitude, based on the fact they are pretty hard-working, VOLUNTEERS and unless I miss my guess, Cam wasn't paid for his position here, just like most others aren't.

Take this for what it's worth.


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

SEMIJim said:


> I'm thinkin' "probably not." Two entirely different kinds of communities. The only thing shared being a love of sailing.
> 
> Jim


Very different "communitites", but a lot of crossover membership none the less.

Great point smacky- but hopefully the admin- took that into consideration when they opted for the course of action they they took.


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## N0NJY (Oct 19, 2008)

sailhog said:


> Not that you can draw too many parallels, but here's something to consider before taking a swipe at Sailnet...
> 
> Colo. man charged with libel over Craigslist posts - Yahoo! News


There's NO parallel.

When you make up something about another person and state it or write it publicly - you can be sued.

If the things the man said were true, he can still be sued, but it will come out in the wash and he'll win.

Simple as that. Especially in that case, he has a preponderance of evidence (such as emails, letters, or tapes of the woman showing she actually traded sexual favors for legal service).


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## N0NJY (Oct 19, 2008)

camaraderie said:


> I want to once again state that I bear NO ill will to anyone at sailnet as they are not the CAUSE of the thread being deleted...only the implementers and VERY reluctant ones at that. *For those still interested in reading the content of the thread you can get it all but in bits and pieces at Google using their "cache" function and entering prospective tartan site:www.sailnet.com/forums in the google search box. *
> 
> Cam


umm... Probably not, Cam:



> N0NJY, you do not have permission to access this page. This could be due to one of several reasons:
> 
> 1. Your user account may not have sufficient privileges to access this page. Are you trying to edit someone else's post, access administrative features or some other privileged system?
> 2. If you are trying to post, the administrator may have disabled your account, or it may be awaiting activation.
> ...


Same for ALL pieces and bits of information.

It appears to be completely locked out of sight now.....

If anyone is interested in discussing the Tartan stuff... contact me privately. I can offer a choice that has nothing to do with sailnet. Have a nice day.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

KeelHaulin said:


> Val-
> 
> I think it's just best to let George C. live his retirement in peace and hopefully with fair winds and following seas.


Sure, I wasn't seriously advocating pestering an old sailor about a situation decades from his control. If I see him around the club, I might ask him of his opinion of Tartan's business practices.

But I was serious about sending the thread to the admins of the C&C owners' site...it's a big and popular site that includes the current C&C offerings as "legitimate C&Cs"...even though they don't bear much resemblance.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

N0NJY said:


> umm... Probably not, Cam:
> 
> Same for ALL pieces and bits of information.
> 
> ...


Do the same thing, but click on the 'cached' - not the thread linking it back here. All of the information is there.

- CD


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

Cruisingdad said:


> Do the same thing, but click on the 'cached' - not the thread linking it back here. All of the information is there.


I wonder if William Ross will call Google, as he allegedly did Sailnet?

Jim


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## ReverendMike (Aug 1, 2006)

My first draft was too cranky, this is version 2:

Cam- You are and have been one of the best resources on this site. I have nothing but respect for your decision and can only imagine how hard it was for you. Thank you for all that you have done here and I hope you continue to be so valuable to the many sailors here.

You deserve every nice word that has been said about you and more. But, that said, I couldn't even bear to finish this thread. To check back in after a few weeks and see this on the front page... maybe I'll try again tomorrow...


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

The Devils Advocate strikes again..


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

*One thing I think should have been done was leaving the thread in place with a a place holder, rather than removing the thread in its entirety. *The place holder would have a short statement about why the thread's content had been removed.

This would leave a clear understanding to both the long-time users of the forum as well as any visitors that were following search engine links-rather than having it just disappear. It would also serve to preserve the "history" of the site.

Finally, it would show that the removal of the thread's content was done due to threats of legal action and under duress, rather than as a complete capitulation to corporate bullying.


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

*complete capitulation*- Hmmmm, Sailnet must be French.


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

That is a damn good idea, Dog.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Why thank you sway...  

I think it makes more sense so that people who do a google search and come to sailnet's forums don't end up with a 404 message and wonder what happened.


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## travler37 (Mar 30, 2007)

sailingdog said:


> Traveler37-
> 
> You're making an awful lot of assumptions about what people are or are not going to do.


 And... 
Look where this has gone.

I KNOW WHAT I AM GOING TO DO.....
What are your intentions?More than just a few lines here?
mark


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

If nothing else, my resignation has contributed to world peace by bringing Sway and Dawg together! Can we get a group hug? (sans the Hawg please!)


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Hey, Sway and I agree about a lot of things, aside from his foaming-at-the-mouth, I-love-Rush-Limbaugh-and George-W-Bush, radically conservative political stances, and even some of those I agree with, since, I'm not really a liberal..more an anarchist... 


camaraderie said:


> If nothing else, my resignation has contributed to world peace by bringing Sway and Dawg together! Can we get a group hug? (sans the Hawg please!)


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## N0NJY (Oct 19, 2008)

PBzeer said:


> Yet another sterling example of the need for tort reform. Whether it's idiots suing to be rewarded for their own stupidity, activist groups suing to get their way, or corporate entities and other large groups suing to stifle dissent, the lawsuit has become the line of first defense.
> 
> With most politicians being lawyers, is it any wonder this is the one area where there is no call for regulation?
> 
> The right or wrong of Sailnet's decision is up to them. I would though, remind them that Sailnetters BUY things from Sailnet. Tartan doesn't even advertise (that I've ever seen) here. Evidently, they have decided it is better to please those who contribute NOTHING, than those who actually spend their dollars here, as well as make it a worthwhile destination to attract even more PAYING customers. After all, what's the point in saving the store, if you drive away your customers?


I wasn't either aware of the Tartan issues, until this message was posted.

I was invited here by Cam - to this site, due to some other issues, elsewhere. Some of you might be aware, but, either way those issues aren't issues now.

Thing is, my wife and I are ACTIVELY looking at bigger boats - and we've not even sailed our starter boat yet. We're planning to eventually spend a lot of money in the next 4-5 years.

The Company List just got shorter. I've also reconsidered how and where I will order parts and things as well. I've not made a final decision on that yet, but understand that as a moderator on other sites, administrator and a CONSUMER, and as a true believer in Capitalism I believe that when it comes right down to it.... SAFETY comes first and foremost for ALL consumers.

Companies that fail to address safety issues first and then try to hide those issues are NOT being ethical... rock and hard place, notwithstanding.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Rick-

It isn't only a matter of safety... but ethics and integrity. Jackett and company have repeatedly tried to engineer an assets only sale of the company, knowing full well that it would ditch any warranty liability to the existing owners of boats that are currently under warranty. IIRC, this isn't the first company that Jackett has pulled this stunt with. One of the major selling points for both Tartan and C&C is their long warranty period... which is very misleading if Jackett succeeds in pulling off an assets-only sale.



N0NJY said:


> I wasn't either aware of the Tartan issues, until this message was posted.
> 
> I was invited here by Cam - to this site, due to some other issues, elsewhere. Some of you might be aware, but, either way those issues aren't issues now.
> 
> ...


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> Rick-
> 
> It isn't only a matter of safety... but ethics and integrity. Jackett and company have repeatedly tried to engineer an assets only sale of the company, knowing full well that it would ditch any warranty liability to the existing owners of boats that are currently under warranty. IIRC, this isn't the first company that Jackett has pulled this stunt with. One of the major selling points for both Tartan and C&C is their long warranty period... which is very misleading if Jackett succeeds in pulling off an assets-only sale.


Dog- Do you have examples of other companies TJ has done/tried this with. It had to have been a long time ago right? He's been part of Tartan for a long time.


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## N0NJY (Oct 19, 2008)

sailingdog said:


> Rick-
> 
> It isn't only a matter of safety... but ethics and integrity. Jackett and company have repeatedly tried to engineer an assets only sale of the company, knowing full well that it would ditch any warranty liability to the existing owners of boats that are currently under warranty. IIRC, this isn't the first company that Jackett has pulled this stunt with. One of the major selling points for both Tartan and C&C is their long warranty period... which is very misleading if Jackett succeeds in pulling off an assets-only sale.


Note that I also stated that - Ethics in this case is really part of the point.



> Companies that fail to address safety issues first and then try to hide those issues are NOT being ethical... rock and hard place, notwithstanding.


I agree with this. I work for a company that contracts out to the government. If we screw something up (which, honestly doesn't happen) we couldn't hide it because if we did, it would be WORSE in the long run than saying "Oops, we screwed up, we fixed it, here's the fix and here is how we will mitigate this from occurring again".

The government is happy, we're happy, no one "gets fired", we fixed the problem, we've mitigated it, and it's not going to happen again in any of our lifetimes.

The Government is a pretty tough "customer" in all respects.

CONSUMERS should be just as tough and DEMAND high ethical standards from the companies with whom they deal. *I* do.

And if a company violates what I personally consider to be good (high) ethical standards I don't deal with them any further. Several large companies have caused me personal problems based on their lack of such standards.

So - with that in mind everyone should know that myself and others have contacted Tartan and explained that while we will be certainly searching for a new/used boat in the future, they are one company that has come off the extensive listing of boat makers.

Such is life.


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

With the LARGE group from this forum that appears to be meeting at the Strickly Sail Chicago show, we just might be able to make our feelings heard if we all stop by the Tartan booth and express our displeasure at the way this was handled. It is easy for them to look at Sailnet in the abstract. It is quite another when 30 people stop by their booth at one show and complain about it. If this were to start happening at other shows too....


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Can I show them my butt???


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

Giulietta said:


> Can I show them my butt???


Yes, as long as I'm not around when you do it.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

IIRC, it was in the July 1997 issue of PS magazine, and the company was actually Tartan, in one of its former incarnations-NavStar Marine.

The relevant passage from the article is:



> Matters deteriorated further when Salamon** pressed Jackett for payment in June, 1996, and he encountered a change in Jackett's tone. He was informed by letter that the company that had manufactured his boat and issued the warranty, *NavStar Marine Company, was no longer in business, having been reorganized as Tartan Yachts, Inc., in October 1993. The new owner, Polk Industries, an investment company, therefore disavowed responsibility for warranty work because only** the assets** of NavStar had been purchased.*


*This is basically what Jackett was trying to do with Novis Marine in the failed Grand River deal.* The brand stays the same, but the legal company holding title to the brand keeps changing.

**Salamon was a Tartan owner who was requesting re-imbursement for warranty issues on his boat.



T34C said:


> Dog- Do you have examples of other companies TJ has done/tried this with. It had to have been a long time ago right? He's been part of Tartan for a long time.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

I am telling you man..over here that guy would be done and fried already....


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

Dog- Thanks for the documentation. I'm not sure if you had posted that before, but it gives a lot of credence to your arguments along those lines.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Hey - you AFOCs make sure to take photos of the fight that breaks out at the Tartan booth. That'll be sweet.


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## knothead (Apr 9, 2003)

T34C said:


> With the LARGE group from this forum that appears to be meeting at the Strickly Sail Chicago show, we just might be able to make our feelings heard if we all stop by the Tartan booth and express our displeasure at the way this was handled. It is easy for them to look at Sailnet in the abstract. It is quite another when 30 people stop by their booth at one show and complain about it. If this were to start happening at other shows too....


The St. Pete show starts tomorrow and I know that at least one or two members talked about attending. Can't remember who at the moment though.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Tartan Novis news since the original thread was taken off line"
 Today: The former Novis lawyers PorterWright withdrew their receivership motion today in court in Cuyahoga. They were joined in the original motion by ChaseBank and FrybergDoor Co..
The suit for recovery of fees owed (about $200k) has not been dropped and Chase and Fryberg will now need to decide what they wish to do. Don't know what this all means but does take off the table the possibility of Tartan/Novis going into receivership this year.
10/28 Jake Legvold filed suit for brach of contract against Tartan/Novis in SanDiego court on issues surrounding his purchase contract on a new boat. Amount $55k+ Case:## 37-2008-00094956-CU-BC-CTL
11/12 Investment Group representative appeared before Connaut City council. "Charles Rowe Jr. of IRG Capital Group of Wadsworth. Rowe said *he represents investors poised to acquire Tartan Yacht, which operates the Novis Marine business in Conneaut, and a Rhode Island boat-building business. "*
*Just to recap both outstanding OPEN judgements and pending litigation since the old thread was deleted. *
Plaintiff Issue Venue Amount Judgement or Active
TEAGUE Customer 2 Boats Warranty Breach IO $234K J

BORING/Yanmar Breach of Contract NJ $138+K J

CONNEAUT Foreclosure-Back Taxes Broad/Jackson/Ousky OH 283k J**

MORGAN CHASE Loan w/ personal guarantee Chase Bank OH 500k J

COMPOSITES ONE Breach of Contract Composites/Resins OH 100k J

*Total Open Judgments * $1.255M * 
* Note&#8230;there are also a number of unpaid Workment's Comp judgments open.
** This is a completed foreclosure action against the landlord for Tartans plant in Connaut. The landlord is Larry Ousky who is also the registered statuatory agent for Novis/Tartan. 
****************

*PENDING SUITS*
LORENZO Boatowner Product Liability NJ $250+K A

VITO Warranty Fraud-Customer IL $250+k A-2/09

PORTER/WRIGHT Lawyers Bills Unpaid/ OH $200k+ A-

STENER Warranty/Fraud- Customer TX $250+k A-2/09

LEGVOLD BOAT Purchase Contract Breach CA $55k A

ASHLAND Breach of Contract Supplier of Resin OH ?? A

WEST MARINE Breach of Contract Supplier of Rigging Batts etc OH 100k A

UllmanSails Breach of Contract Supplier of Sails OH ?? A


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Cool Cam. BTW - for what it's worth, this issue has heated up many folks at SA. They're "looking into it". Stay tuned. This could be fun.


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## denby (Feb 21, 2007)

smackdaddy said:


> Hey - you AFOCs make sure to take photos of the fight that breaks out at the Tartan booth. That'll be sweet.


Better yet a video would be really sweet.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Thanks for the update Cam.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Camaderie, a true gentleman of honor, will be missed as moderator. I almost feel I am reading a eulogy! Hopefully, he will remain an active member of this forum. 
As stated by others above, it speaks volumes about Novis that they should stoop so low as to use strong-arm tactics to squelch honest opinions: it further speaks volumes about the legal profession in this country that Sailnet (or anyone else) believes there are lawyers who would pursue such litigation! Since we all know that to be true, Sailnet really had no choice but to delete the thread. Free speech is only as free as the lawyers will allow it. I still believe this to be the best country in the world, but the greatest problem with the laws in this country is that those laws are written by lawyers! While sailing, I have noticed that sharks never eat lawyers -- professional courtesy!


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

I just might have to cancel my trip to the Blue Man Group and join the AFOC's at the Tartan booth.

I've got a better idea than starting a fight.

What say we all go there, pretend we are wanting to buy, now, at the show - and tie up the brokers so much they can't get a single sale...
Gosh, they may sue me for that suggestion huh?

My real name is BiteMe Butthead, google me up scotty


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Thanks again for all you've done Cam, and for the update.

-Spencer


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## scottbr (Aug 14, 2007)

chucklesR said:


> My real name is BiteMe Butthead, google me up scotty


Aye Captn'..... but why would I want to Google you ?????


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## ckgreenman (Aug 22, 2008)

chucklesR said:


> I just might have to cancel my trip to the Blue Man Group and join the AFOC's at the Tartan booth.
> 
> I've got a better idea than starting a fight.
> 
> ...


Now THAT might actually be effective. Getting into a fight will most likely get you thrown out of the show. Would be even better if they were offering test sails


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

bubb2 said:


> Hog and PB, both points are valid but we at the forum brought the problem to sailnet. Sailnet did not cause the problem for themselves. What I would like to see, is we must have some lawyers on the forum who on behalf of the members take this on Pro bono. I would write a check to help with the expenses.


Bump Bump


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

This is becoming eerily similar to the Brett Favre story.


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## artbyjody (Jan 4, 2008)

smackdaddy said:


> This is becoming eerily similar to the Brett Favre story.


Don't give Farve that much credit - I have from personal channels, info that indicates CAM was his inspiration...


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