# Solid boats to look out for



## Phobiaphile (Nov 25, 2016)

So I have been toying with the idea of getting myself a boat this winter/spring. Something I can live in over the winter to escape these frigid Minnesota winters.

I'm not sure which sort of keel I would want. My sailing experience is limited to a little racer on small lakes. On a windy day you can take it to the absolute edge and it's a blast-until it tips over on you. Not so bad if I'm just trying to have some fun on the weekends at the lake, but a potential disaster if that is my home as well.

So a modified keel would fit the order, but I would also want something that can get going in a light breeze and maybe even get an adrenaline rush doing it. From my research online, the short keel sounds like an unruly beast that should just stay in the 60s where it belongs. Where does a conservative fin sit in this? Does it offer the benefits of a short keel while still allowing stability and control? 

This boat is going to be at least 22 ft, closer to 30ft would be better so I can have room for a little stove, skateboard, et cetera. I don't necessarily need a shower on board, and it will just be me living in this thing.

The kicker is this all has to be done for >$4k. So a boat from the 70s would probably be what I am looking at. I build guitar amps, have built speaker cabinets, rebuilt motorcycle engines, done a little plumbing et cetera... I'm fairly certain I could deal with a basket case so long as the fiberglass is in good shape and the gas tank is easily replaced (I understand some boats seal them away?) I can wire up a diode rectifier, I can make finger joints, I'm sure I could paint the hull too. I watched a video. EZ. 

I do not know diesel engines. These Atomic 4 engines seem popular maybe something with one of those.

I'm not worried about impressing women with my mahogany cabinetry and running water. I'm just wanting something which, with some elbow grease, will put me in a position to leave from Lake Superior and go south for the winter.

So what hulls am I looking at? Which boats, from the 70s, are seasoned veterans still ecstatic about? What is going to be the most bang for my buck, especially if I sell someday, that fits the above prerequisites?


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

I still have fond memories of cruising around in my first boat a 1968 Bristol 24. Did quite a bit of cruising in the Northeast with it. Though you might want to look at a 28 as well. Had just about everything I needed and nothing I didn't. Mine had a 9.9 Yamaha outboard with electric start was easy to maintain and no squeezing down below to work on it.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I'm not clear on your plan. Is it to sail in Florida in the winter and Minnesota in the summer?

If that is the case, I think travel by water in the type of boat you are talking about might be out of the question. The distance is too great and the trip too difficult to make twice a year in a 50 year old gas powered small boat. You would be looking at 6 months a year of hard travel.

If you have a truck or SUV I would be looking at a swing keel trailer sailor like a CS 22 or a Tanzer 22.

If you plan on leaving Minnesota once and keeping the boat down south, that's a different matter, there are lots of live aboard capable sailboats from the late 60's and early 70s that could work for you. I wouldn't worry about keel type, your budget is going to restrict you to mostly fin and swing keels. Unless you go with something like a Nordica 20, which is actually a full keel trailerable boat that fits your budget. No private head is the only downside there, just a porta potty in the living room so to speak. Alberg 22 is another small trailerable full keel boat with a good reputation. Again, no private head.


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## BarryL (Aug 21, 2003)

Hey,

You should check out the original Pearson 30 boats from the early 70's. Sweet sailing boat, small down below but good enough for 1 person. Cheap, plentiful, etc.

Good luck,
Barry


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Agree with Arcb about the practicality of making that trip twice/year on a smallish boat.. Different story if the boat is left in the south.

Pearsons, C&Cs, Cals, Catalinas, Rangers 26-30 ft from that era are all worth a look though for $4K or less you're definitely looking at a fixer-upper.


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## BrawleySmash (Nov 25, 2016)

I'm kinda in the same boat lol. But I'm in Oklahoma moving down to Texas coast to live aboard and get familiar and put the boat threw the paces for a few years before heading to USVI. Looking for a small 3/4 keel prefer 25-30 feet I've been looking at the Pearsons haven't really found the full keel style in much else.


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

I wouldn't concentrate so much on keel style. Look more to the areas that will make the boat what you want. Such as sailing performance, safety, storage... There are plenty of long keel boats that are handful in a blow, and plenty of fin keel boats that are slug-slow. There are usually unavoidable trade-offs. If you want a boat that is spirited, and fun to sail, it probably won't be as safe in a blow. If you want a cheap boat it probably won't be newer, or bigger, etc.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I was about to post pretty well exactly what Barquito said. Look beyond the keel. Not all full keel boats are built equal. For example, a Pearson 365, Alberg 37 and a Hans Christian 36 are 3 very very different fullish keel boats between 36 and 37 feet.

A Morgan OI, was built with comfortable shallow water island hopping in mind, while Alberg 37's were built more with blue water fast passage making in mind.

Full keel boats can be nearly as varied as fin keel boats.

Even full keel boats of the same model can be very different. I've seen Alberg 30's set up for racing, and I've seen them set up as live aboards. The results can be very different.

There are fin keel boats that will long outlast some full keeled boats in a storm and their are full keel boats that will destroy some fin keeled boats on passage times.


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## mikel1 (Oct 19, 2008)

Take a close hard look at any of the Ericsons . . . . great initial build quality, good reputation, nice interiors . . .


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## BrawleySmash (Nov 25, 2016)

Really wanting an old Pearson I had a 66 vanguard 33ft I loved her wish I had never sold her but moved backed to a land locked state. I had some time on the tiller on a Arial 26ft at the time thought she was to small but after time on the 33 single handed was a bit more then I need so guess bigger is not always better. I am dead set on rudder attached to keel for safety and sturdy. This boat will be my home for the first few years a port but after that a anchor hopping Caribbean adventure. That's the bad things about buying and old boat you really can't get a feel for them before buying especially in a fixer up in my price range witch I want for the fact I'm going to do a turn key refit to my wants and specs. Also will be nice for when that crap hits the fan if I put her to gather much easier to fix her


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

I am going to assume you meant < $4k as in less than. that is not much for a 30' even if someone pays you another 4K to take their boat. A 4k boat is going to need more than elbow grease before it is ready to sail down the coast to the Caribbean. it is very easy to spend 10k refitting a 4k boat to be ocean ready


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## BrawleySmash (Nov 25, 2016)

Guess I kinda hijacked this post I'm not the one that original posted. I know myself I'm looking to spend 5-10k myself. Yeah I know the refit will be costly but I can do the work myself and I have some parts that I have collected from scraped boats atomic 4, water maker and such. If I could find a late 60 Pearson Arial soild hull and decking I'd be thrilled lol I want to do new holding tanks and interior anyway


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

The Ariel was not a particularly good boat for that era, either in terms of sailing ability, motion comfort, space down below, carrying capacity, or seaworthiness. 

A better option for a live aboard on the Texas coast from the same era would be the Tartan 27, or the Halsey Herreshoff designed Bristol 26, Bristol 29, or 30. These were better boars in all ways. 

Most of these boats in this size range sell for around$10,000 if they are in decent to good shape and a little more if they are in great shape and updated. You would probably be ahead of the game if you bought one that was in good shape and spend a little more upfront. 

It's hard to find those neglected below market price boats. Brokers prefer not to list them and so they end up advertised on Craigslist or local papers.That means searching a lot of sources and being able to strike quickly when a candidate boat pops up. That is tough to do long distance.

Another strategy if you are local is to comb the boat yards. You might find a boat that is either tucked in a corner of the dry storage or in the water, and which appears to be sorely neglected cosmetically but otherwise in good shape. The boat yard will know how to reach the owner and may provide contact to tell the owner that you might be interested in buying thier boat. 

Jeff


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

Before you buy anything at least LOOK at a Catalina 30 especially down below, they are very spacious.

They also sail surprisingly well. If you want light air performance look the a deep draft tall rig version.

At 4k you are most likely looking at one powered by the ubiquitous gas A 4.


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

overbored said:


> I am going to assume you meant < $4k as in less than. that is not much for a 30' even if someone pays you another 4K to take their boat. A 4k boat is going to need more than elbow grease before it is ready to sail down the coast to the Caribbean. it is very easy to spend 10k refitting a 4k boat to be ocean ready


I am going to second this. A 4k 30 foot boat is likely to have negative equity. It might take more time and effort to get it to a 10k boat status than spending 10k upfront.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

OP is on the Great Lakes, fresh water and he's on a part of the great lakes with about a 4 month sailing season. I think he should have no trouble at all finding a good old 26ish foot boat for $4k. Especially if he buys Canadian, where his $4000 is actually $5200.

2 years ago I sold my old 1974 Grampian 30, which was a nice solid boat with roller furling Genoa and Main, new gas tank, new blackwater system, wheel steering, autopilot, new upholstery for $5k cdn and I was happy to get that much for it. It had an atomic 4 but it was in top running condition, no rust at all.

If he wants to get maximum bang for his buck, I would buy Canadian made too, just because they don't have the same international name recognition. Grampians and Bayfields are solid boats that can be had for very affordable prices, but there are many others as well.


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## Phobiaphile (Nov 25, 2016)

Buying Canadian is a very big possibility. Fresh water would be preferred. I'm not ready to buy one yet (a member already messaged me with one for sale, sorry, I can't send PMs until I have more posts) but when I do I want to know as much about it as possible.

I don't see why I can't have a fine boat for <$4k... remember, I don't need a shower I don't need GPS I don't need a watermaker... I can wire it up on my own, rebuild the engine, et cetera. In fact I would rather it be that I know the wiring and the engine/drive system like the back of my hand. 

Do you think a person would be able to fit a little 7ft dinghy on such a boat or any other tender if you have ideas? I would like to avoid docking fees if possible. 

Also, what are the laws of fishing? Do I need a state-by-state license? That seems kinda ridiculous...


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

There is a YouTube channel called "Shaun and Julia sailing" where the couple starts off not too distant from where you are in a boat much like what you are describing, an early 70's Bayfield 25 which is a fullish keel boat and can likely be had in your price range in good condition.

Their first season was an excellent sailing channel about fixing up and figuring out how to cruise a small inexpensive boat. 

I think you can get many answers to your questions by watching that first season and it's delivered in an entertaining format.

Edit:. Actually I just found Shaun and Julia's boat for sale on kijiji for $5900 cdn, apparently they gave up their attempt 1/3 of the way to the Bahamas. I bet you could offer them $5200 and have an excellent, well maintained diesel powered live aboard cruiser on budget.


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

Arcb said:


> Edit:. Actually I just found Shaun and Julia's boat for sale on kijiji for $5900 cdn, apparently they gave up their attempt 1/3 of the way to the Bahamas. I bet you could offer them $5200 and have an excellent, well maintained diesel powered live aboard cruiser on budget.


Note.... or watch their last video.. the boat's motor needs some work.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

titustiger27 said:


> Arcb said:
> 
> 
> > Edit:. Actually I just found Shaun and Julia's boat for sale on kijiji for $5900 cdn, apparently they gave up their attempt 1/3 of the way to the Bahamas. I bet you could offer them $5200 and have an excellent, well maintained diesel powered live aboard cruiser on budget.
> ...


Valid point Titus Tiger. They may only need a new head gasket.

But keep in mind, these two had already motored about 1000 miles. You could put 1000 miles on a brand new engine, especially if inexperienced and face a similar repair bill.

Have you read Don's thread where his fairly new Hunter needed $3500 in repairs last month? What's a new head gasket cost on a small engine? $200?


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## Phobiaphile (Nov 25, 2016)

I'm on the 12th episode of Shaun & Julia (lol), thanks for the recommendation!

These Atomic 4 have such low compression, blowing a head gasket it just about the last thing I would worry about, especially if you're running 91 octane. I don't even think Shaun properly baselined the engine. At least it's not in the videos.

I was hoping I would be able to do some fishing, but if I have to buy a license in Maine, then another in Connecticut, then in Florida... I think I'll pass on that.


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## amwbox (Aug 22, 2015)

It wasn't an atomic 4. It was a single cyl diesel iirc. Yanmar 1GM, maybe?


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Definitely not an atomic 4, it's a diesel, you can hear the tickety tack much better in season 2 when they are in the NYS canals.


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## Phobiaphile (Nov 25, 2016)

Oh I know it's a diesel. I was just trying to make a point I guess.

I don't know diesel systems so that would be something to avoid. In the first season he had a fuel filter that was worn. That's one of the first things I do when I get a new engine haha.


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

Phobiaphile said:


> I don't see why I can't have a fine boat for <$4k... remember, I don't need a shower I don't need GPS I don't need a watermaker... I can wire it up on my own, rebuild the engine, et cetera. In fact I would rather it be that I know the wiring and the engine/drive system like the back of my hand.


If you buy boat for under $4k, even if you do the work yourself it can turn into a $10k boat easily. By the time you rewire the boat, rebuild the engine and put new sails on it you are $10k into the boat. You will know the boat like the back of your hand and it will be ready for you next summer because you spent your first summer getting to know the systems. Given a choice of a $3500 boat in need of some TLC and Arcb's old boat for $5k, you'd be a summer ahead by buying a boat in sailaway condition.

Given a boat under 30 feet I think I would opt for an inflatable kayak over a dinghy.


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## Phobiaphile (Nov 25, 2016)

Ok so my budget is <$6k then!


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

You don't need to change your budget, just choose your boat wisely. Whatever you buy will need some work, don't take on a project if you can afford it.


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## Bleemus (Oct 13, 2015)

Shaun and Julias boat needed more than a head gasket. 

Sent from my Pixel C using Tapatalk


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## zedboy (Jul 14, 2010)

Especially if you're buying Canadian, do yourself a favor and pick up a Grampian 26. A diesel one will be up at the top end of your budget, but an OB-powered would be much cheaper. Not sure if you want that for a long motor. Big 26-footer and they built ~1k so they are easy to find. Solid sailing performance, way better than a Bayfield 25.

The Bayfield 25 (docked next to one for years) should really be called the Bayfield 23. They are not big inside if you buy the 25-foot marketing, and not great under sail. Cute pirate ships tho.

Edit to add: the other big winners of the "Ontario/Quebec Classic Plastic" in this size range/age/budget are probably the Tanzer 26 and slightly smaller 7.5. Both are good candidates but probably won't find with a diesel. Lots of both on the market.


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

Arcb said:


> Valid point Titus Tiger. They may only need a new head gasket.
> 
> But keep in mind, these two had already motored about 1000 miles. You could put 1000 miles on a brand new engine, especially if inexperienced and face a similar repair bill.
> 
> Have you read Don's thread where his fairly new Hunter needed $3500 in repairs last month? What's a new head gasket cost on a small engine? $200?


My point, was more buyer beware ..

I know so little about engines.. that I would be turned off for that right away.. especially since the video made it seem like it wasn't worth it for them to fix it.

Of course there is a difference between buying a boat and selling. If you spend (only) $200 or even if you buy a new engine... it would be going forward to take advantage of it. However, if you are selling, you might think what every you put into the boat... is going to be a loss, that you won't enjoy the benefits of.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

For a small boat that I wanted to use both in the south in the winter, and in the north in the summer I would look for tailorable boats. You can cover more distance in an hour on a trailer than you can in a day in a small boat! Plop her down near the keys and have fun all winter, and pull her out and drag her north for summer fun.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

Arcb said:


> There is a YouTube channel called "Shaun and Julia sailing" where the couple starts off not too distant from where you are in a boat much like what you are describing, an early 70's Bayfield 25 which is a fullish keel boat and can likely be had in your price range in good condition.
> 
> Their first season was an excellent sailing channel about fixing up and figuring out how to cruise a small inexpensive boat.
> 
> ...


Yea they left their boat in Kingson NY just north of me. I bet you could get a screaming deal on her, as it is pretty far from their home. If it was just a bit bigger I would go look at her, may still for fun. I think she does need more than just some motor repair, though. They ran that motor pretty hard to get through the canal, and it was knocking most of the route, so I guess it is likely toast, but who knows.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

No doubt they ran it hard.

My point really was that the OPs price point really isn't unrealistic.

As somebody earlier mentioned, a Bayfield wouldn't be my first choice, at this price, my first choice would be a Grampian 26 with a 4 stroke Honda. I haven't owned a 26, but I have owned a Grampian 30 and our boat when I was growing up was a Grampian 23. 

I don't think I would take a G23 to the Bahamas personally, but they are spacious and very inexpensive, usually around $1000-1500 cdn. 

I think the 26 would be a perfect compromise. A Grampian 26 would sail circles around a Bayfield 25.


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## BrawleySmash (Nov 25, 2016)

I know it's odd but I want the fixer upper not one that's shot but I'm going to rewire and rebuild the engine anyway so don't what to was the money. For me it's going to be a live aboard home at a dock with the when I have time sailing for the first couple years. After a few years Texas gulf will only be home only during hurricane season rest will be sailing the Caribbean. 10k is my max for initial boat purchase and needing to be live aboard and cruise able makes finding a boat hard. Found a J-Boats 30 has nice space seems solid unfortunately it's in a lake but going to take her out this weekend and see. Any thoughts on the J30 offshore??


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

A J-30 is a great sailing boat but a race boat first and a week end cruiser second, not a good live aboard. to light a boat to load down with supply and safety gear. Not really a good extended range cruiser. several headsails are required to adjust for different wind speeds. slow in light winds. J boats of that day tend to have wet cores in both hull and deck. almost always around the chainplates


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## BrawleySmash (Nov 25, 2016)

Thanks OverBoard. That's kinda what I was thinking from my research that it didnt like to heal either but it's a fresh water boat and the room on the inside was great. I really want a Pearson or C&C but I have a year to make a purchase


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

On the other hand, J-30's were raced single-handed trans-Atlantic in one of the OSTARs back in the 80's. There were a couple which survived the Fastnet storm as well. http://www.jboats.com/j30-articles-reviews/82-j30/372-j30-sailing-fastnet-storm

They are pretty tough boats and they sail quite well. Obviously they will loose some performance if loaded up with stuff, but they will carry as much as any 7,000 lb displacement boat. (When you talk about the size of a boat, displacement is a better indicator than length.)

That said, these boats are pretty long in the tooth and Overbored is right that wet cores can be a problem with these boats.

Jeff


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

Not sure I would want to cruise a J boat. Last year on the transpac when the fleet got out about 30mls offshore, they hit the 35kt windstream that typically blows off the SoCal coast and two of them had the decks rip off from the hull, and they had to turn around and go home. These were well maintained race boats prepped for the transpac.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Lazerbrains said:


> Not sure I would want to cruise a J boat. Last year on the transpac when the fleet got out about 30mls offshore, they hit the 35kt windstream that typically blows off the SoCal coast and two of them had the decuks rip off from the hull, and they had to turn around and go home. These were well maintained race boats prepped for the transpac.


I am very surprised to hear that. Where did you hear that? I was not able to find any reference decks being torn off any boats to anywhere on the internet or in the daily sailing news coverage of the race.

I did see in the incident report(and in the daily sailing news) that two J-boats withdrew from the race, a comparatively new J-133 with improperly bedded hardware leading to a bad deck leak, and a J-42 with a rudder stuffing box failure that was leaking.

I personally have been aboard a nearly 20 year old J-35 in winds in that range and saw no sign of flexing or stress beyond the high rigging loads that you would expect on a race boat being pushed hard in those conditions.

Jeff


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

Jeff -

A buddy of mine was a grinder on one of the boats.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Lazerbrains said:


> Jeff -
> 
> A buddy of mine was a grinder on one of the boats.


What did he say happened? The only report that I found referred to an improperly bedded jib track leaking badly. It sounds like he has more information than was published.

Jeff


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

Jeff_H said:


> What did he say happened? The only report that I found referred to an improperly bedded jib track leaking badly. It sounds like he has more information than was published.
> 
> Jeff


Or yet another example of a story that gets embellished as it is told and retold; a badly leaking jib track becomes a "deck being ripped off", and that morphs further into a problem that hit two boats.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Stern, 
To be fair.news, reports are not always accurate so I am not saying that I know the true story about the J-133 with the deck problem.

Laserbrains knew someone onboard that boat and that person would have a better sense of the true story. A deck failure is a serious issue so I would be interested in hearing whatever details can be provided. 

Jeff


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## Bleemus (Oct 13, 2015)

Raced a J30 in the Boston area many moons ago. While well built and strong the cockpit ergonomics and the cambered deck would eliminate it from my list for anything more than a weekender. We nicknamed it the Torture Chamber. 

Sent from my Pixel C using Tapatalk


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

Jeff_H said:


> Stern,
> To be fair.news, reports are not always accurate so I am not saying that I know the true story about the J-133 with the deck problem.
> 
> Laserbrains knew someone onboard that boat and that person would have a better sense of the true story. A deck failure is a serious issue so I would be interested in hearing whatever details can be provided.
> ...


True dat, fer sure.


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

Jeff_H said:


> What did he say happened? The only report that I found referred to an improperly bedded jib track leaking badly. It sounds like he has more information than was published.
> 
> Jeff


Jeff - I haven't seen him for awhile, so I will ask next time I do. What I remember him saying is that the deck separated from the hull in a large section once they hit the wind belt past Catalina island, and that another J boat suffered the same fate - they both had to turn back.


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