# best used boat for wold cruise, under 140K??



## john232 (Aug 18, 2003)

Will retire at age 49 in 3 months and my Wife and I need a live board boat that can World cruise. She wants a boat with alot of room but seaworthy. Center cockpit or rear. Sloop with adjustable fore stay for a storm jib when needed. We like the Hylas 44,47, wauquiez 47, Passport 42, Hans Christian 43, Beneteau 456 first, Slocum 43, J44,Swan 47, Swan 44, Most the boats we want will have a 3 cabin layout ,generator, A/C and heat, Hot and cold running shower stall, We want a boat that can move in light air and handle heavy weather with a decent motion at sea. I am a very skilled wood worker and worked for a year at Aerospatial doing Composite fabrication, making molds, lay-ups vacume bagging, and re-enforcing Coast Guard Helecoptors, I will be retiring from General Motors with 31 years of service. I only have about 40K to put down on a loan for a used yacht. But I am very handy and skilled at alot of trades and I worked in the paint shop at GM for most of my time there. Thanks for your opinions.


----------



## kwaltersmi (Aug 14, 2006)

All of the boats you listed, with the possible exception of the Beneteau 456, should suit your needs. My choice from your list would likely be the Hans Christian, mostly for aesthetic reasons.

If I were shopping in your price range, I'd also consider these: Crealock 37, Ta Shing Baba 40, Valiant 40, Alden 44, Gozzard 36, Lord Nelson 41.

As you can tell, I prefer the salty, more classic lines over the more modern designs.


----------



## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

John,

What is world cruising? Do you mean circumnavigation? If so, or if you plan to cross oceans, you are correect and are on the right path with most of those boats. If you have not cruised or lived aboard yet, make sure you are realistic about the boat and what you need. THis is a topic spoken on this board and others many times: People buy a blue water boat (what I call a bullet-proof shoe box) because they think they want to go around the world, then realize after the first good storm offshore that they have no interest in spending weeks or or leaving this hemishpere. They are now confined in a tight little boat that can verge on being uncofortable and not the best boat for coastal cruising/cruising in this hemisphere. You get burnt out and dump the cruising dream.

If that is not you and you and your wife are seasoned sailors that have not intention of sticking around here N/S America, read on:

Everyone has their preferences. I am a Hylas fan, followed by Valiant for serious offshore work. I would say Swan and Passport next (and maybe better than the first two), but I have not spent enough time on either to say definitevely. You should add Mason to your list. Good boats. 

However, I am not sure how many of those boats you are going to get for under 200k. Maybe a REALLY old one, and very likely one that will need a lot of work.

The Baba's are nice and another to consider as a go-anywhere would be a Tayana 37. The T-37 will not meet your cabin requirement, probably not your generator requirement either. But it meets you money requirement. The Baba only has 2 cabins, but is well made and you could probably get a genny in there. However, with maybe a couple of exceptions (Swan, X, maybe passpot or Hylas... maybe), these boats are traditionally slugs in light air. I find it an oxymoron to have a boat that handles well un light air and handles well in a hard blow. Many of these boats are very heavy and several have full keels. This may make them a great passagemaker but a poor light air.

Others that have sailed swans, X (like giulietta), Passports (like Labatt), or Hylas (like labatt) may know better. I CAN tell you I will sail circles around a valiant, Baba, Tayana, and any boat like that. I have an awesome boat for this hemisphere, but not the best choice to cross oceans in. 

I hope that is a start to your search. Again, I hope if you are seriously considering buying a boat to circle the globe, you have considerable experience offshore (both you and wife). If you have not sat in a storm for day(s) before, it has a way of readjusting your cruising aspirations.

ALl the best,

- CD

PS At 140,000... you will be limited on the boats you can get. Also, you will probably have to pay cash for a boat since if you take out a loan for a boat they want you to have insurance and it is VERY difficult to get full coverage insurance to circum.


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Go for it, John! Two more to consider:

Corbin 39 and Lafitte 44 (another great Bob Perry design). Both fit the parameters you described.


----------



## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

John...some of the boats you have on your list are so radically different from each other that I can't begin to tell you what to look for. How you can have a Beneteau and a Hans Christian and a J44 or your list together??...Simply means to me that you don't really know what you want or need other than a boat that meets your budget. You need to think things through a lot more about what you really want in a boat.


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

John, 
I am a little biased in that I own a Slocum 43 and believe she is one of the safest & most comfortable vessel whether underway or dockside. If you have any specific questions about a Slocum 43 reply via this thread.


----------



## RandyonR3 (Oct 2, 2005)

John
The last post, concerning the Slocum, sounds like an Idea to me, Ask those that cruise what they have and why they chose that boat, there your getting first hand knowledge of the boats..
A couple things to remember, most of your time, your setting at anchor. and how stable is it at that area.
As for myself, I'm living and cruising on a Beneteau FIRST 42, much like the 456 you mentioned. The price is right, as you can pick one up for 100K or less. The wife and I chose the 42 as we couldnt find a FIRST 38.
We wanted a boat we could both handle, singlehanded if needed, and roomy enough to be comfortable at anchor. We've turned the rear quarter into a pantry with ELF shelving and the forward head into a a water closet, as thats where the watermaker is now and a tool locker. spare parts and such.
Its a fast boat, and very seaworthy as it was built for all-out racing in open ocean events. more than we will ever put it through. Easy to move around, will turn in its own length and a real pleasure to sail.
At anchor, we have had to do a couple inventive features to get the boat to settle in, as to run a line off the anchor chain to the rear winch to point the boat into the swells, but thats the point.. The boat is workable.
I guess the main reason was that I dont like bad weather, and this boat gives me the ability to run my butt of to avoid such weather..If I can keep myself a couple hundred miles below the 564 milibar line, I'll be doing fine.
Check out the books from Lisa Copeland where herself,her husband Andy and three sons traveled around the world on a FIRST 38... He goes into detail why he chose a modern racing hull for cruising.....


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Norseman... Wow!*

In looking at your original posting I see that you failed to select the Norseman 447 CC. THat boat is considered by many as a great boat for a couple with a nice cutter rig, center cockpit and all the stability needed for blue water. I met a couple in Morro Bay just coming off a 7 year run through the south pacific and there boat was everyting I saw as desireable. Currently there are a few available on both the west coast and the eastern seaboard priced in the $200's. You might want to take a look at them.

Good sailing


----------



## john232 (Aug 18, 2003)

*cruiser or racer or both*

My Wife is kind of new to sailing but I have grown up sailing on the Great lakes with my father and his friends although mostly in smaller boats (20 - 27 ft range) As far as being commited to ocean crossings - it not a matter of commitment the storms are scary to my wife - but her solution to this is actually going out into storms with experienced crews and facing her fears. As far as boats go I'm caught between a slow stable boat or one that is more a racer-cruiser that can handle bluewater - Like the Waquiez 47. So any suggestions on the ideal cruiser that is fast and stable in heavy weather - Yes we do plan on bluewater crusing but we are not going to get the boat and take off 2 months later - we will cut our teeth on the gulf of Mexico - while we build our confidence up - then little trips etc - looking at being based a good 18 months just getting used to it all before actually cutting the lines.


----------



## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

For your price range, Baba 40 or Tayana 37 would be my preference. They are very traditional and can pretty much go anywhere. They will suck in light winds... you WILL use your motor. Not sure of what exceptions there are in that price range. Some of thosse boats I just do not have a lot of first hand knowledge of, so will give way to others with more knowledgeable.

I will say with though that the gulf is often misscharacterizdd as a great place to cut your teeth. I dare say it can really be a bad place. The seas are not like what you get in the Atlatic and Pacific in a storm. THey do not roll, but tend to build square and break. THere are a lot of dicussions on this, but I can honestly say the worst storm I have EVER been in was in the gulf after a northern came through that was not suppsed to and brght 1000 miles of fetch with it. 

Between the hurricanes, the strong northerns, rigs, and shallow water, I find many people get more than they bargained for. Of course, these are just my opinions and there are others with more offshore experience than I have. Just another thought to consider in all these thoughts. 

Don't forget my warning on insurance. Getting a policy for the Western Carribean will be difficult at best. Also, if you have not started checking into financing, I would suggest it now. I just spoke with a lady from Essex last weekend and things are tight for them too. They now really like to see 12 months liquidity AFTER the down payment on the boat. You also better not tell them this will be a liveaboard. You will likely need a residence (preferably a house) in addition to the boat. I think if you have great credit and the total note is under 100k, then you get some flexibility on income verification... but lending seems to have gotten tight in the marine market, just like the housing market.

This is what I have been told, so I cannot verify it other than to say it came straight from Essex.

- CD


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Given your budget, the degree of experience your wife has and the skills you have, I'd suggest that you look for a boat that's sailable but in need of a little bit of work.

Spend a couple of years getting to know the boat and the sea. While you are doing this you can refit her. You won't save any money over the long run, but you'll know where everything is on the boat, how it was instaleld, and how to fix it when it breaks.

The alternative - finding a boat in good shape that has the size and features you are looking for may prove difficult given the dollars you want to spend.


----------



## avazquez (Sep 8, 2006)

*Beneteau First 456*

I have a Beneteau First 456 and contrary to others I do understand why it was in your list. Designed by Frers, very similar to the Swan 46 of the same era. Confortable, seaworthy and faster than most cruisers you'll encounter. For the price there is no comparison.


----------



## hulaa (Oct 22, 2007)

I Have A Bruce Roberts,38,big Beam Lots Of Living Quarters.
Steel,all Work Mostly Finnished. She Sails Ok But For Safety,
She Feel She Can Handle Any Thing. Ive Sailed Twice To Southern
Part Of Chili From South Florida


----------



## TSteele65 (Oct 19, 2006)

Here's a nice HR352:

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...rrency=USD&access=Public&listing_id=1893&url=

The engine is probably ready for a rebuild, but it looks solid otherwise.


----------



## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

Not that I'd want a mono - but when I was dreaming I always saw the Gulfstar 50's as a good design that fit your budget, lots out there coming back off extended cruises.

Of course, if you get tired of dragging lead downwind all the time you might want to look at multihull's. They are a lot more forgiving for new sailors, and much better sitting at anchor which is where you WILL spend most of your time.


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Beneteau First 456 review:

http://www.sailingmagazine.net/UBN_0203.html


----------



## kwaltersmi (Aug 14, 2006)

Those who are pro-Beneteau First 456: Would you take this boat on a bluewater passage or consider it a proper boat for a "world cruise"? 

I don't have an opinion (or experience with the First 456), I'm honestly just seeking your personal opinions.


----------



## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

kwaltersmi said:


> Those who are pro-Beneteau First 456: Would you take this boat on a bluewater passage or consider it a proper boat for a "world cruise"?
> 
> I don't have an opinion (or experience with the First 456), I'm honestly just seeking your personal opinions.


CD said it all really. What is world cruising ? Something that won't go to windward for love or money but is fast yet comfortable off the wind would be great for a circum. in the forties/fifities.

On the other hand for the run across the Pacific in lowish lattitudes and then plodding around the islands a lighter, nippier thing would be fine.

Reality is while lots of people talk about circumnavigating very few ever do. I'm quite happy to think of my cruising area as Pacific Islands, New Zealand, Tasmania, North East and Northwest Australia. Once I've done all that the who knows. I have a strong desire to cruise Europe and North West America but doubt that I'll sail there from Oz.

No offence meant but your list does indicate a certain lack of experience and an overindulgence in sailing magazines. You really won't know what you want until you have that experience. I'm guessing that maybe this is your first cruising boat ?? Do you like to day sail ? I'd go the Beneteau or the J44. Should be easy to find one and relatively easy to resell provided you screw a good price out of the seller. Do you want to voyage to Antarctica? Steel is good. Swans are fabulous boats but have you had a good look at access from the cockpit in the older designs?

Live aboard and cruise locally for awhile. You'll soon realise what is important to you, the kind of weather you like to stay out in for instance, the type of sailing you like to do and how you spend your time onboard when not sailing.

One of this boards contributers has been looking at the dreaded Catalina. For a first off cruiser maybe not a bad addition to your list. I must admit when looking at the ads in Yacht World I was surprised by how much I took to them.


----------



## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

tdw said:


> One of this boards contributers has been looking at the dreaded Catalina. For a first off cruiser maybe not a bad addition to your list. I must admit when looking at the ads in Yacht World I was surprised by how much I took to them.


Ahh, you saved yourself from the dreaded photoshopping!! HAHA!

BTW, I understand Catalina is now settin up shop in your home country. No, I am not kidding. I do not know what all they are selling over there, but apparently they are finally spreading out from the US/Canada market.

- CD


----------



## avazquez (Sep 8, 2006)

I am by no means a world cruiser but I can tell you that the 
First 456 is an oddity for Beneteau. Very different from the rest and I know of one called Klondike that finished a circumnavigation (do a search and you will find their blog). Going upwind they are very fast and powerful, of course draft can be a problem in some areas if you have one like mine which is 8ft. yes 8 ft. but there is a shallow draft version of 6 ft. +/-. I have posted two videos in youtube:













kwaltersmi said:


> Those who are pro-Beneteau First 456: Would you take this boat on a bluewater passage or consider it a proper boat for a "world cruise"?
> 
> I don't have an opinion (or experience with the First 456), I'm honestly just seeking your personal opinions.


----------



## labatt (Jul 31, 2006)

New to the thread but saw CD's comments about Passport's not necessarily moving in light air. In 6-7 knots of true we're doing about 2-3 knots of boatspeed. At 10 knots of true, we're at about 5 or a little bit more. We don't play a lot with sail shape (wife won't let me - set and forget), but if I did I could probably eek out another few points. I was surprised at how well our Passport 40 does in light air. We used all of 30 gallons of fuel this season, and that included a motor up the Champlain Canal and halfway up Lake Champlain with our mast strapped to the deck. We rarely motored, even in light winds, since we'd usually still be moving. 

You MAY be able to pick up a Passport 40 for under $140k. My wife and I constantly comment that it would be the perfect boat for a couple. Two cabins, 1 full head, 1 day head, separate enclosed shower, excellent galley, incredibly comfortable and LARGE cockpit, good nav station, HUGE storage, wonderful motion in heavy weather, not bad in light winds... We are going to be really really REALLY sad to let her go, but she won't do well for a couple year cruise for a family of four. And I'm sorry - there's no comparing her fit and finish and quality, or the ability to Bluewater Cruise, against a Beneteau - even a First.. They are two completely different kinds of boats.


----------



## LyleRussell (May 3, 2006)

Get your boat loan BEFORE you retire. Learn from my mistake.


----------



## avazquez (Sep 8, 2006)

The Passport 40 is indeed one beautiful and well built sailboat. It all depends on your taste and purpose. For fast passagemaking I guess the 456 with a phrf between 58-65 would provide better performance still providing lots of space. The Passport seems to be a bit slower at phrf of 138 but its a solid well built beautiful sailboat. Again I guess it all depends on purpose and taste.


----------



## paul77 (Jul 5, 2007)

Someone more knowledgeable than me please correct if i'm leading astray..

I focused on PHRF for boat selection, but remember PHRF is a race handicap.. not a cruising handicap, it takes a whole bunch of variables and gives one value.. You really got to look at those variables.

Hull speed, SA/D, and D/L are the interesting performance stats. The extra 7 feet of waterline on the beneteau 456 is the majority of advantage here.

With an MCR of 31 for the passport and an MCR of 21 for the beneteau, the boats are definitely going to feel pretty different on the open ocean. MCR is generally an indication of seakindlyness.. Have seen a rule that you want > 25 MCR to go out and do blue water.. However you might like the feel of the MCR 21 boat on the ocean, but your wife probably won't. 

The CSF is > 2.0 for the beneteau, though laden this number would end up below 2.0 the weight is really not in the right spot. A CSF over 2.0 is an indication that the boat may not right itself. You want under 2.0 and lower = better.

You can either calculate these values yourself or look at one of the databases around the internet.


----------



## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

john232 said:


> My Wife is kind of new to sailing but I have grown up sailing on the Great lakes with my father and his friends although mostly in smaller boats (20 - 27 ft range) As far as being commited to ocean crossings - it not a matter of commitment the storms are scary to my wife - but her solution to this is actually going out into storms with experienced crews and facing her fears. As far as boats go I'm caught between a slow stable boat or one that is more a racer-cruiser that can handle bluewater - Like the Waquiez 47. So any suggestions on the ideal cruiser that is fast and stable in heavy weather - Yes we do plan on bluewater crusing but we are not going to get the boat and take off 2 months later - we will cut our teeth on the gulf of Mexico - while we build our confidence up - then little trips etc - looking at being based a good 18 months just getting used to it all before actually cutting the lines.


Hey John,
Welcome back to the board. We haven't heard much from you since early 2005 - good luck with your plans for ocean cruising, chase the dream.

But I gotta ask, how has the Santana 30 worked out - has she been the sailboat you expected? Back in 2003 when you announced your winning bid of $500 you outlined some ambitious plans for her. Hopefully a lot of water has passed under her keel in four years.

So what is the rest of her story?


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

This man is talking about crossing OCEANS people having crossed the Atlantic and completed 3 other ocean passages i could safely say that most of these boats would kill him. Please look at steel boats or something of the sort the cost isn't much different. i'd recommend swans personally. If you really want a small inexpensive boat that's great but do NOT cross any Ocean your life will be at risk.


----------



## CBinRI (May 17, 2004)

I am partial to Swans, as they are both built like tanks and fast. You will be looking at thirty years old in that price range but most have held up well (be careful with teak decks) and they do not depreciate at the same rate as many other boats.


----------



## CBinRI (May 17, 2004)

rsn48 said:


> Beneteau First 456 review:
> 
> Sailing Magazine


I have spent some time on the First 42 from that era, which is a great boat. The only draw-back with the 456 from my persepective is that it appears from the article that it only comes with an iron keel (the 42 offered both lead and iron). I would lean towards lead, for reasons of maintenance.


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

The only problem with what the man is looking for is that he has a really low budget. I would like to know if you have any more money to make improvements to the boat to bring it to I.M.O standards or if that's it?


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

While he's got a budget of $140,000, it's plenty, provided you don't get a huge boat... the problem is that his budget and his wife's desires are at odds with each other. 

Also, getting a loan for a boat, given that he's retiring, might be a bit problematic. Most banks aren't going to be interested in giving a loan on a boat that may be disappearing over the horizon, unless he has substantial other assets to use as collateral.

He's also looking for that rare beast that can move well in light air but has a comfortable motion in heavy seas... with a lot of room for fairly limited budget. 


Personally, I'd recommend he look at something in the 37-40' range, which will be considerably less money than something in the 45-50' range, and much easier for him to handle. He doesn't say what kind of experience he and his wife have in terms of sailing or if he has any prior boat ownership experience. He may be in for a rude awakening... owning a boat ain't cheap. Longer the boat, the more it costs to own.


----------



## BlandingFarm (Mar 18, 2008)

*Catalina 42*

Check out the 3 cabin Catalina 42. It has sailed around the world more times than any sailboat. Plenty of room and your wife will love it.


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

My guess is that you have a catalina 42 and are somewhat biased in your opinion, especially given some of your other posts.



BlandingFarm said:


> Check out the 3 cabin Catalina 42. It has sailed around the world more times than any sailboat. Plenty of room and your wife will love it.


----------



## avazquez (Sep 8, 2006)

CBinRI said:


> I have spent some time on the First 42 from that era, which is a great boat. The only draw-back with the 456 from my persepective is that it appears from the article that it only comes with an iron keel (the 42 offered both lead and iron). I would lean towards lead, for reasons of maintenance.


Not True. Mine has the LEAD keel 8ft draft.


----------



## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

BlandingFarm said:


> Check out the 3 cabin Catalina 42. It has sailed around the world more times than any sailboat. Plenty of room and your wife will love it.


Eh??? I love Catalinas, but that comment about sailing around the world is absolutely not true. I also do not believ eit is the right boat for sailing around the world in... at all. However, the wife will love it. The 2 cabin pullman is probably my preference though.

- CD


----------



## CBinRI (May 17, 2004)

avazquez said:


> Not True. Mine has the LEAD keel 8ft draft.


Duly noted and all apologies. I love the firsts. That might be my next boat.


----------



## CBinRI (May 17, 2004)

As my pennance for slandering your keel, I post the following link that proves both that the First 456 can you get places fast and that you can hang on the top of the mast like a madman even while flying a spinnaker:

YouTube - TITERE - FRERS BENETEAU FIRST 456 - CULEBRA TO VIEQUES


----------



## eharan (Jul 8, 2008)

*slocum 43*



slocum43wt said:


> John,
> I am a little biased in that I own a Slocum 43 and believe she is one of the safest & most comfortable vessel whether underway or dockside. If you have any specific questions about a Slocum 43 reply via this thread.


Just bought a Slocum 43. Could you drop me a line? I'd like to compare notes.

Regards.

Ed


----------



## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

eharen...slocum made 3 posts here last october and hasn't been seen again.


----------



## ozesailor (Jul 31, 2006)

*The perfect blue water cruiser*

A few years ago, John Holtrop, a sailboat designer did some work on a method of selecting sailboats on the basis of "fuzzy logic", and he produced a set of spreadsheets to find good cruising sailboats.

The spreadsheets contain a searchable database of over 1280 different sailboats, including all their design parameters. You can select one make and model of boat and search for other boats that are similar in terms of handling and performance to the one you select.

This is very useful if you have your heart set on say a Jeanneau 40 and can't find any good ones around. You can go into these spreadsheets and find several other boats that are very similar to the Jeanneau in performance and handling.

I've made a short screencast video at sailingmates.com showing how to download and set up these spreadsheets. You'll also see how to use the spreadsheets to uncover other boats that may work for you.

There's also a series of virtual boats in the spreadsheets, including the Ideal Cruising World Boat, the Optimal Blue Water Cruiser and the Ocean Cruising Club Ideal Cruising Yacht. You can use these boats as your "template" boat and find all the boats in the database that are similar to tthese in handling and performance

I'm not allowed to put a link here, but if you want to find the article on fuzzy logic and the download link for the spreadsheets google "John Holtrop" + "fuzzy logic"

It's good stuff

peter


----------



## Robby Barlow (Apr 23, 2006)

What boat should I go for... now that's about the worst question you can ask. All the things you liked about certain boats will be trampled on by some, the ones you didn't like will be praised by others, and the really good ones you probably can't afford. 
The truth is people have sailed around the world in just about anything, even a windsurfer, so go for something YOU like, and if the surveyor says it's ok, enjoy. 
I know of a guy who singlehanded a Bavaria 36 around the world, and guess what: He neither sunk nor did he loose the keel or any other vital parts. Which goes, I suppose, to prove that 'it takes 2 to tango'.


----------



## tomaz_423 (Feb 5, 2006)

This forum constantly tries to convince us that Beneteau can not cross Oceans. 
It is true, that if money was no object I would prefer something else, but:
Just on the last ARC rally there were 44 Beneteaus who finished the Atlantic crossing in just this one event. By far more then any other brand.
It is not fair to compare the 43 feet Bene with 43 feet Hallberg Rassy for example. They do not cost the same. 
The question is: Would I rather live (and perhaps cross an ocean or maybe not) on a 140k$ Bene or a 140k$ Halberg Rassy. You can get 5 years old Bene for that money - perhaps in the 39 to 43 feet range. Fast, comfortable in protected waters, but capable of crossing if equipped right.
Or you get a 30 years HR. With 30 years old boat you have to expect all sorts of problems and high costs of maintenance.
Or you get a 15 years HR but 30 feet long. 
You can not get any 5 years old HR for that money.


----------

