# Our Medical Experiences in Mexico



## sww914 (Oct 25, 2008)

We've been in Mexico for 4 months now and we've had to seek medical and dental care here. The dental work was about 1/6th the price of California and 95% as good. The medical care that we've received has been superior. 
My wife was electrocuted 6 years ago, ended up in a wheelchair and was unable to care for herself for about a year. I don't want to go on and on about that but it was hard.
She has seen about 35 doctors between the worker's comp doctors and the disability doctors. When we arrived in Mexico we learned that a very expensive muscle relaxant that she had been using, Amrix, is unavailable here. We sought out a doctor to help deal with her sometimes debilitating abdominal (growing to involve her whole left side and her diaphragm) spasms. We found an internist who, on the first visit, talked with her for 2 hours for 500 pesos, about $40.00. Each of the next 8 visits were between 1/2 an hour to an hour and the 500 pesos included all the meds and supplements in that price. He said that he could prescribe medicines like the American doctors had ($1000.00 a month in the US) and that they would be very expensive like the American prescriptions were, or that they could try to fix the problem.
He performed many tests totaling about $120.00 and determined that her thyroid gland wasn't working any longer in addition to many other dietary deficiencies. He put her on a radical 6 week diet. No dairy, meat, wheat, no sugar, no gluten, etc. No large pelagic fish, only small fish, and chicken once a week max. After 2 weeks he gave her a medicine to kill all of the bacteria in her gut and a week later he re-introduced beneficial bacteria. His theory was that the electricity had killed most of the good bacteria and bad bacteria had taken over.
Results? She has lost almost 50 lbs in 3 months so she's back to her weight from before the injury, she is able to eat normally and go to the bathroom normally for the first time in 6 years, and her prescriptions which are mostly free of side effects unlike before, total about $150.00 a month. Her eyesight has improved and her hair isn't falling out anymore. She must take many dietary supplements now to keep her system running smoothly.
Our trips to the ER have gone from once a month to once in 5 months and maybe after what we learned last week, never again.
We did need to have her hospitalized last week and we were SHOCKED at the difference in care between the US and Mexico. Caring is still a part of healthcare in Mexico. Between the ER visit and 2 days in the best hospital in Ensenada, the bill was right at $1000.00.
You can read about the incident and the hospital on our blog, here-
Landfall Voyages » And There We Were in a Mexican Emergency Room: Part 1

Part 2 will be up tonight.


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## Don Novello (Sep 21, 2012)

looking forwards to part 2. I feel your pain, i've been to some pretty scarry 3rd world countries and have experienced the worst, but also wonderful outcomes from difficult situations. new friends, cheap dental care  sounds like you'll have the content for a book by the time this is over.


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## IslanderGuy (Apr 26, 2008)

Wow, what a story, thanks for sharing! Looking forward to part 2, and checking out your blog now...


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Having spent 15 years working in cardio-pulmonary medicine at two of Baltimore's largest teaching hospitals, I can unequivocally say that 95-percent of the physicians I've come across in my lifetime are not worth a damned. The vast majority are pill pushers who hope to make enough money to retire early and put their kids through medical school.

When you do come across a knowledgeable physician or surgeon, which is rare, they tend to be the ones that take the time necessary to make a proper diagnosis, and then provide the correct regiment of treatment. The major problem that most individuals have is they have no way of determining whether or not the physician or surgeon they're seeing is competent. Sure, you can look on the Internet and find out if they have some malpractice suits filed against them, but other than that it's next to impossible to do anything more than make a WAG (wild-assed guess).

The best advice I have for sailors is to have a fully stocked first aid kit onboard, one that contains not only the usual array of bandages and aspirins, but additionally, antibiotics, pressure dressings, splints, sutures and needles, and an adequate supply of any prescription drugs you may be taking. In my case, I even have a bottle of nitroglycerin tablets on the boat - just in case I have that third heart attack while anchored in the Dry Torgugas.

You were very fortunate to find a highly qualified physician while visiting Mexico. Most of the better ones tend to head north to the U.S. where the pay scale is much higher. I knew a couple of ex-patriots from south of the border, both of which have since passed away. Both were excellent surgeons and outstanding diagnosticians. 

Cheers,

Gary


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

many of the physicians here in mexico are trained in usa. there is nothing inferior about medical care outside usa. 
914--i knew you wouldnt have a problem here with healthcare, as is very inexpensive.
i wasnt sure what meds you would be able to find--i knew most on your list were readily available.
i know here in mexico one is not allowed to buy certain antihistimines, but those werent on your list. i am glad you found good folks and proper care.
i donot trust physicians in usa, as most are into the greed factor--quite a few of the GOOD ones give up after so long with a corrupt system. in usa, is all about money --money for insurance companies, is all about the lobbies dictating the prices and fees. no humanity anymore.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Mexico is no exception to poor med care. Be careful of conclusions based on single anecdotal stories, I'm nevertheless glad to hear of the above success.

Epidemiology of medical complaints in Mexico: identifying a general profile


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## cupper3 (Jun 30, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> Mexico is no exception to poor med care. Be careful of conclusions based on single anecdotal stories, I'm nevertheless glad to hear of the above success.
> 
> Epidemiology of medical complaints in Mexico: identifying a general profile


Good article.

However, as a single data point, it is rather non-instructive. What would be of interest is the same method being applied to other countries, and then see those results.

That would be informative. Study is dated 2006 (6 years ago) and I wonder if changes have happened now? Does the area of Mexico a doctor practices in matter (my guess is yes)? Those that target medical tourism I would suggest are every bit as capable as those in first world countries.


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

On a related note, I had some dental work done in Thailand. First rate care all the way. Inexpensive, first rate customer service in reception and billing. Dentists in the USA seem to hire pit bulls for receptionists and think you are lucky they can fit you in after an hours wait.


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## LoboPops (Jul 28, 2012)

AARP has had some good articles on this thread. Like the USA, there are good and bad practioners with many in between.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

cupper3 said:


> ...... Study is dated 2006 (6 years ago) and I wonder if changes have happened now? ...


Can't say, but Mexico certainly hasn't thrived over the past 6 years, particularly the past few.

I have a good friend that lives in an ex-pat neighborhood outside Mexico City. He loves it, but it's not getting better.


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## sww914 (Oct 25, 2008)

On the subject of Mexico's health, the first Disney Cruise ship landed in Ensenada today. That's a good sign.


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## LoboPops (Jul 28, 2012)

Just had one leave Galveston....Is it the same one?


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## sww914 (Oct 25, 2008)

I doubt it, wrong coast of Mexico.


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## dongreerps (May 14, 2007)

A few decades ago I took surgical residents down to Mexico to repair cleft lips and palates. We worked with a Mexican plastic surgeon, and had excellent rapport. We frequently sent him patients for cosmetic surgery. Everyone was happy with the arrangements. 
The Mexican PS was injured in an automobile accident, and had to have his spleen removed by his friend, a gynecologist, who was the best qualified surgeon available. The gynecologist then had my friend the PS flown to our hospital in the states for recovery. 
Those are the facts - you draw the conclusions.


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## therapy23 (Jul 28, 2007)

dongreerps said:


> A few decades ago I took surgical residents down to Mexico to repair cleft lips and palates. We worked with a Mexican plastic surgeon, and had excellent rapport. We frequently sent him patients for cosmetic surgery. Everyone was happy with the arrangements.
> The Mexican PS was injured in an automobile accident, and had to have his spleen removed by his friend, a gynecologist, who was the best qualified surgeon available. The gynecologist then had my friend the PS flown to our hospital in the states for recovery.
> Those are the facts - you draw the conclusions.


Did that include re-operation?

recovery is simply rest, and maybe some blood.


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## sww914 (Oct 25, 2008)

Sorry for the delay, it's been a rough week. Part 2 is finally up.
Landfall Voyages » Mexican Emergency Room Madness, aka Part 2


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

wow, 914---wow. the potassium deficiency is a good call-- with a level just lower than optimal, muscles spasm hard. i am very glad that was discovered. hopefully things will improve.
thinking about you guys--come south--in nov i go to zihuat....mebbe end nov, mebbe mid nov, not sure yet.


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## dongreerps (May 14, 2007)

The recovery in the states was prompted by the Mexican Medical staff's unease in following a patient who had had significant intraabdominal injury. No intervention needed, just experienced observation.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Removal of a ruptured spleen due to an automobile accident is a routine procedure in most, major, metropolitan hospitals. The recovery time is usually just a few weeks at most, and most individuals undergoing the procedure live normal lives.

The biggest problem that occurs is usually infection, which often is the result of poor sterile technique in the operating room. This is frequently a problem in third-world countries, and keeps a lot of malpractice lawyers in pocket money here in the states.

Depending upon your age, nursing care in the states ranges from poor to non-existent. Unfortunately, quality nursing care is a major component of the post surgical healing and recovery component. The one thing that those of us who have experience in the medical field enjoy is the ability to determine when something is going wrong. Those who do not have that hands-on experience are at the mercy of their caregivers.

I witnessed a classic example of this two weeks ago during a post MI visit with my cardiologist. He's a good guy, knows his stuff, but is part of a large cardiology practice that I consider nothing than a revolving door people mill. There were at least 30 patients in the waiting room when I arrived, and they were there to see two cardiologists. The wait time was nearly an hour, more for some. 

The receptionist called my name, she took me to an exam room, told me to take off my shirt, and within a few minutes a technician came into the room with an EKG machine. She seemed to be in a hurry, quickly attached the electrodes, snapped on the wire leads, ran the EKG, took my blood pressure, pulse and oxygen level, then quickly moved to the next room saying "The doctor will be right with you."

The room was cold enough to safely hang a side of beef, I waited about 20 minutes, and was just about ready to put my shirt on when the doctor walked in. He listened to my lungs, heart, looked at the chart and said "Well, everything looks OK, your blood work is all great, and your EKG has an inverted T-wave, but that's Ok - it's part of the healing process."

Well, it wasn't OK, I had no eschemic damage when I had the MI because I have a lot of collateral circulation, and on the previous 20 EKGs there has never been an inverted T-wave. We had a real serious talk at that point, and I had him repeat the EKG. I suspected that the leg leads were reversed, and the repeat EKG had NO inverted T-wave. He came back into the exam room shortly after the EKG was completed and said "Well, everything looks OK now. Stop at the receptionist desk and make another appointment for six months from now - just as a follow-up." 

Kinda gives you that warm, fuzzy feeling - doesn't it?

Cheers,

Gary


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## cupper3 (Jun 30, 2010)

travlineasy said:


> ................
> Depending upon your age, nursing care in the states ranges from poor to non-existent. Unfortunately, quality nursing care is a major component of the post surgical healing and recovery component. The one thing that those of us who have experience in the medical field enjoy is the ability to determine when something is going wrong......


I went to my doctor for my annual, and saw him again a week later to review the tests and do a scheduled mole removal. I had set up both appointments in the past 2 weeks. He reviewed my blood work, and ensured that I understood every component.

I don't want to turn this into a US healthcare bashing post, however, I happen to be in Canada, you know, the home of 'socialist medicine'. Where it takes 8 months to see a doctor, the government tells you who to see, and you have no choice. All bunkum. I get to see who I want, I get in quickly, and my doctor owns the clinic, hires and pays the staff, and pays the overhead.

The only difference is that there is one payer... the government. My tax rates are lower, we spent 1/3 less as a percentage of GDP, and we live longer. My guess is we live longer because we don't have to worry about our co-pay or full pay if one does not have insurance, and go for regular medical care.


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

nice to know my years as a critical care rn in the usa are so deeply appreciated.
there IS a problem in healthcare in usa--IFF you are allowed to have a rn who is trained in usa, you get a decent nurse. if you are the drawer of the short straw and have a foreign nurse as your caregiver, you are in deep stuff. sorry, but it is truth. usa has been recruiting rns from other nations for over 50 yrs as most of the usa trained are too snotty for bedside care. the pay was also horrifically low forever. however, the problems with usa healthcare these days, besides those poorly trained foreign nurses, is the government itelf--corruption in form of lobbies and insurance out of control and other systemic glitches are the cause of high er than god healthcare pricing and fees. go figger. there ye have the nutshell version.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

If you had to wait 8 months to see a doctor for that mole, and it was a melanoma, it's likely that you would not have been able to post the information above. Consider yourself very fortunate. I've had a couple relatives and a few close friends die from melanomas - it's not pretty.

Good Luck,

Gary


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## cupper3 (Jun 30, 2010)

travlineasy said:


> If you had to wait 8 months to see a doctor for that mole, and it was a melanoma, it's likely that you would not have been able to post the information above. Consider yourself very fortunate. I've had a couple relatives and a few close friends die from melanomas - it's not pretty.
> 
> Good Luck,
> 
> Gary


Not sure where you got the 8 months from, it was two weeks as I indicated in my original post. The point I was trying to make was that contary to the propaganda from the insurance industry in the USA, Canadians do not have to wait, we do have choices for doctors, we don't need to be part of any darn HOA, and most of all, we don't have to worry about getting cut off for pre-existing conditions.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

More people immigrate to the US than nearly the next four countries combined. Overall, on average, we have something more attractive than anywhere else on the planet. Warts and all. Mexico didn't make the top 15. Canada, with their nationalized health care, made a good showing at about a quarter of the US. Seems to take more than nationalized health care.


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## tspooner (Jun 18, 2011)

Glad to hear that you found a practioner who could (would) find an approach to better and more permanent results. You would think that in this electronic day of age the International Medical community could post and share symptons, diagnosis and treatments that show positive results in some library forum that could be accessed by other practioners. This would save extended suffering and costs to the patient.


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## PAULCR1 (Dec 9, 2011)

Had a medical situation in Cuenca, Ecuador where my wife needed surgery on her elbow. Went to the Drs. office, he said come back tomorrow and I'll have a surgeon here. We did and he did. He operated on her elbow, took about 30 minutes. It had started raining so after the surgery the Dr. drove us back to the home where we were staying. Cost of surgery & taxi service.....$70 and my wife is fine.


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## therapy23 (Jul 28, 2007)

cupper3 said:


> Not sure where you got the 8 months from, it was two weeks as I indicated in my original post. The point I was trying to make was that contary to the propaganda from the insurance industry in the USA, Canadians do not have to wait, we do have choices for doctors, we don't need to be part of any darn HOA, and most of all, we don't have to worry about getting cut off for pre-existing conditions.


I don't get it.

We have Canadian friends. One works in health care. She has told us the propaganda. Her family is included.

Maybe she is from a different part of Canada.


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## therapy23 (Jul 28, 2007)

PAULCR1 said:


> Had a medical situation in Cuenca, Ecuador where my wife needed surgery on her elbow. Went to the Drs. office, he said come back tomorrow and I'll have a surgeon here. We did and he did. He operated on her elbow, took about 30 minutes. It had started raining so after the surgery the Dr. drove us back to the home where we were staying. Cost of surgery & taxi service.....$70 and my wife is fine.


What exactly was the surgery?

A mole or a fractured ulna?


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## cupper3 (Jun 30, 2010)

therapy23 said:


> I don't get it.
> 
> We have Canadian friends. One works in health care. She has told us the propaganda. Her family is included.
> 
> Maybe she is from a different part of Canada.


Are there waiting lists? You bet, especially for lifestyle induced problems like hip replacement and knee replacements. They are by far the result of being overwieght. I have no empathy for those that now need to go through some quality of life issues when they didn't think about it or did anything to reduce the risk.

Have a medical required procedure? You get taken care of, and now.

Have a pre-existing condition? Your insurance will never get cancelled.

The fact remains, Canada pays 1/3 less as a percentage of GDP on healthcare that the USA does, we live longer and our taxes are lower. I'll take our healthcare over the huge issues my friends in the States have any time.

When I hear that friends need to postpone doctor visits because of the expense of co-pays, when I hear that they do not have the choice of who to see because of HMO's, when I hear that they need to stay in a job they hate because of medical insurance that they would lose because of pre-existing conditions and when I hear that their premiums are in the hundreds and hundreds of dollars, I just wonder how, with all the other innovation that the people of America are famous for, how they can be so bamboozled by the health insurance industry.

I just don't get it.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

cupper, this is certainly merging into an off-topic discussion. If you are Canadian and like your system, you've made your point. Why beat on it. Do you have some axe to grind?

Just to keep you thinking. If pharma and med device manufacturers weren't making a fortune in the US, do you think cost would remain as low elsewhere, or would they try to make it up over seas. Good luck. I say we should level the playing field.


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## delite (Nov 2, 2009)

Cupper3 I dont know where you live or how much you make but you are seriously wrong when it comes to Canadian taxes. They are significantly higher than most industrialized countries. In BC my marginal tax rate is about 48%. I'm not aware of any place in the US that comes close to that unless I'm making $500k/yr. Even then I get to deduct my mortgage interest. Do we have a better medical system than the US, probably. Are there other places with better health care and/or tax systems, definitely.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Cupper,

Sorry I misread your post about the time it took for you to get the surgery - my mistake. Guess my eyes are getting older faster than I anticipated.  Glad you dodged the big bullet.

Cheers,

Gary


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## therapy23 (Jul 28, 2007)

cupper3 said:


> Are there waiting lists? You bet, especially for *lifestyle induced problems *like hip replacement and knee replacements. They are by far the result of being overwieght. I have no empathy for those that now need to go through some quality of life issues when they didn't think about it or did anything to reduce the risk.
> 
> Have a medical required procedure? You get taken care of, and now.
> 
> ...


One of the slippery slopes we don't use so much in the US is rationing according to lifysyle. What if it is genetic? (and you are fat )

Yes, we do have some pretty greedy insurance companies and do need reform there.

Yes the fact remains. But do you live longer because you have a different health care system? No, you don't.

Higher co-pays may be a way for us to begin rationing our over indulgence in all things health care.

All universal govt systems survive by rationing. Ours will have to start doing that too in some fashion because 50% of every Medicare dollar is spent in the last 3 (three) days of a beneficiaries life!  That's right. Save Granny!! Do everything! Spare nothing!----that will have to change.

My Canadian friend's mom had a MRI. Yep, you got cancer here there and everywhere. Call your minister and your family. Here it is call the oncologist and lets see what we can do about it. Spend and spend.

And then there are the two 75 year olds. One healthy (could live to be 100), the other not (probably keel in a few months) but both on the same rationing.

That is not fair or right either.

Neither system is really good and fair.

Nice that you are Canadian and live in Canada and like your system.

Stay there.

We will work something out here as we get the public to learn more of the hard truths about some conditions and their real prognoses.


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## tapske (Oct 17, 2012)

I am a native Texan and have spent a fair amount of time in Mexico over the last couple of decades. There are some beautiful out of the way, not overly touristy places. Progresso (inland a bit). Isla Mujeres (becoming a little more touoristy, but they still don't allow gas burning motor vehicles on the island).. so a slower pace is garaunteed. 
As far as medicine goes.... YES, when you remove the corrupt Pharma companies, and the Corrupt insurance companies.....both of which have to grease the corrupt politicians.... It is AMAZING how inexpensive "unisnsured" care and medicine really is. 
I have an old ACL (knee) injury, and 3 years ago I twisted it getting off of a boat Cozumel. I was in a lot of pain. I went to a local pharmacy bought 10 prescription strength pain pills, for $12 and 3 days later the swelling was down....I didn't have to suffer through the pain..and all was better. 
The trip to to the pharmacy was 10 minutes, and I was out a total of $20 including cab fare. 
Compare that to state-side : $200 a month in medical insurance premiums, to take Half a day off of work, to sit in a Dr. office, to pay a $20 co-pay, and get a note (RX), to go to a pharmacy to pay a $20 deductible, to get pills worth about $5 in REAL money. So State side WITH insurance = about $240 and half a day. Over there without insurance cost me $20 and about 30 minutes for the same results. 
Amazing how effeceint and affordable healthcare can be, when there is some similance of a "CAP" or limit to the corruption controlling it. 

---Tapske

NIF


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## HeartsContent (Sep 14, 2010)

The reality of the Canadian health care system is that a bureaucrat, not a doctor will determine what your healthcare needs are.

Friend of mine in Canada and I both injured a knee playing hockey on a Sunday. Monday I scheduled an MRI in the morning and had it read and got checked out by a knee doctor. All was well, just a sprain.

My friend was not so fortunate. He waited six months to get an MRI (guess Canadian medicine is way behind US) and he needed surgery. His bureaucrat determine that he was not a professional athlete so the motherland, oh I mean Canada didn't see the need to fix it. He could just use a cane with a slight limp.

Socialism sees no value in the individual. Unless you are a party member of status. My friend had no political connections to get his "priority" elevated. At least I have the opportunity to change my "priority".


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## cupper3 (Jun 30, 2010)

HeartsContent said:


> The reality of the Canadian health care system is that a bureaucrat, not a doctor will determine what your healthcare needs are.


That is unadulterated B.S.!!!!

I am Canadian, and needed to use the system a few years ago for a serious illness. Guess what? My choice of doctor, my choice of specialist and my needs met NOW. No delays, no 'panels' and no bureaucrats.

I called my doctor for to get an annual done last month, I was in 3 days later, he wanted a specialist to check out one thing, I saw that specialist 4 days later, and all was fine.



> Friend of mine in Canada and I both injured a knee playing hockey on a Sunday. Monday I scheduled an MRI in the morning and had it read and got checked out by a knee doctor. All was well, just a sprain.
> 
> My friend was not so fortunate. He waited six months to get an MRI (guess Canadian medicine is way behind US) and he needed surgery. His bureaucrat determine that he was not a professional athlete so the motherland, oh I mean Canada didn't see the need to fix it. He could just use a cane with a slight limp.


Yup, but he could have gone to a private MRI and got it done the same day, at worst the next. He chose the government pay route. His obviously was not a life threatening issue. I had my MRI and catscans done as needed. No waiting. No charge.



> Socialism sees no value in the individual. Unless you are a party member of status. My friend had no political connections to get his "priority" elevated. At least I have the opportunity to change my "priority".


Your friend had the option of going to a private MRI clinic. Your point is?

Keep in mind, Canada sends 1/3 less as a percentage of GDP on healthcare as opposed to the USA and guess what? We get better results... we live longer.

Our taxes are less... even Romney commented on that in the debate last night. Our debt as a percentage of GDP is far less than yours, and our deficit should be gone in 3 years. We have a trade surplus, and considerably less unemployment than the USA. Our banking system is recognized as the best in the G8.

I would not trade you my health care system for yours ever. My friends in the States, who have healthcare coverage, can only go to doctors their HMO allows, need pre-approval on procedures, have to consider their co-pays in the timing of appointments, and need to make decisions based on financial considerations, and not health ones. And they work for a government agency, not a private concern.

I don't lose coverage due to preexisting conditions, and I don't have to worry about changing jobs and worrying about what will change in my coverage.

Nope, won't trade ours for yours, ever. We pay less to get healthcare and we live longer. The proof is in the pudding.


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## sww914 (Oct 25, 2008)

Tapske, I agree completely with everything you said.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

cupper. Who is asking you to trade? Why do private MRI facilities even exist up there?

The US healthcare system is broken and we didn't come close to fixing it with Obamacare. That was predominantly a social program, not a fix. However, when we do, the Canadian system won't have the same availability it has today. Like all business, your most profitable customers are typically carrying the load for the rest. Business considers the smaller players to be incremental profit at lower margins, that's how Canada gets away with negotiating capped pharma costs with the suppliers. However, once you start making less on your most profitable, that gets passed to the rest. If I were in your shoes, I would want the US to keep things just the way there are, but we won't.

Mexico is going to have the same problem. However, Mexico also has a serious pharma counterfeiting problem. One out of every 10, in fact. Counterfeiting exists everywhere, but can you imagine going to a pharmacy in the US and thinking there is a 1 in 10 chance that your bottle is fake? That's scary.

Latin Business Chronicle


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

cupper3 said:


> That is unadulterated B.S.!!!!
> 
> I am Canadian, and needed to use the system a few years ago for a serious illness. Guess what? My choice of doctor, my choice of specialist and my needs met NOW. No delays, no 'panels' and no bureaucrats.
> 
> ...


Sounds more to me like you got lucky... Are you in BC? My experience and the experience of most of my friends is very different. I've been on waiting lists and trying to get a doctor for a couple years now. My choices are the walk in clinics(where you are under pressure to hurry up and leave and have <10 minutes to meet, explain try and convince them to think about checking something, or the ER(where you wait even more hours than the walk in, last time was several hours while I was coughing up blood, and almost unable to breathe, to be given a chest x-ray and told to piss off as it "probably wasn't TB or cancer"). Wwhether the cause is immediately life threatening or not, I'd prefer not to feel like I'm drowning if I lie down, this has happened at least once a year for the last several.

Even relatively minor stuff, which I know could be inexpensively dealt with and which would make a big difference to pain at work for me won't be done(cost about 10$ for a syringe every few months, or a very short day surgery).
The reason nobody would deal with it, and the first time I even found out it could be dealt with was when I was dating a doctor's daughter. 
He was not surprised, but gave me a good explanation as to why they'd always told me it was something that couldn't be fixed, as the billing they could send the government for dealing with it wouldn't cover their cost for it, and that it was a common problem with Canadian medical care. He fixed it in under a minute, with a single small syringe. The only doctor back here I could bother into dealing with it took a half hour, poked my wrist full of holes, broke a syringe and generally made a mess.

He figured out a few other health issues I've had for years, and suggested that I see if I could pester a doctor here into sending me to a specialist, but I've had no luck so far.


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## cupper3 (Jun 30, 2010)

Jgbrown said:


> ..............
> He was not surprised, but gave me a good explanation as to why they'd always told me it was something that couldn't be fixed, as the billing they could send the government for dealing with it wouldn't cover their cost for it, and that it was a common problem with Canadian medical care. He fixed it in under a minute, with a single small syringe. The only doctor back here I could bother into dealing with it took a half hour, poked my wrist full of holes, broke a syringe and generally made a mess.
> 
> He figured out a few other health issues I've had for years, and suggested that I see if I could pester a doctor here into sending me to a specialist, but I've had no luck so far.


It is unconscionable that a doctor would not treat you.

I just had a friend give me the bad news he was diagnosed with a tumor in his bowels on Thursday. He will be in surgery on Tuesday to get it removed. I cannot think of a possible faster situation any where.

It just reaffirms to me, at least in Alberta, that if you need health care, it's there. I suspect YMMV depending on where you live, but I'm sure that is the case in United States, and I know it is in Germany and Ireland, where I have cousins who are doctors.svs


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

cupper3 said:


> ......I suspect YMMV depending on where you live, but I'm sure that is the case in United States.......


Not really. If more expedient or appropriate medical care is too far away in the US, and you don't have the means to get to it, we have an infrastructure to fly you there for free on private aircraft. I know, because I volunteer to fly for them.


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## tankersteve (Jun 22, 2007)

I am in the military so I am the recipient of socialized medical care here in the United States. My wife recently had a significant surgery. It was handled expeditiously, outsourced to a top-notch surgeon in Nashville. No issues, but Tricare capped the payment to the doctors at approximately $9k. It was billed at $38k, so there must be a pretty significant markup.

We also lived in Canada for a year, as part of an exchange program. My younger daughter was born in Toronto. The experience was excellent. Our first doctor was an ass - we immediately requested a new ob/gyn and got one who was much more in tune with my wife's needs/desires (second birth). 

Our first child was born in Germany. Not a great experience, but the quality of the care was very good. Still, setting the mood with candles in the delivery room was unique. We also visited a pediatric emergency room in Sicily once, and left after great care and didn't owe a cent.

We intend to head out in a few years when I retire, and are actively following threads like this, discussing the kind of care available in other countries in the Caribbean and Central America and Mexico. We have high expectations about the potential care we will receive.

While living in Korea several years ago, my wife saw a doctor on the economy on very short notice and received excellent care. 

Americans need to get over the idea that we are always the best and everything is done the best way possible here. Our experience is that medical care isn't too shabby in lots of other countries, and while sometimes you need to manage expectations, often the care is just as good as, if not better than, the US.

Steve


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

Minnewaska said:


> More people immigrate to the US than nearly the next four countries combined. Overall, on average, we have something more attractive than anywhere else on the planet. Warts and all. Mexico didn't make the top 15. Canada, with their nationalized health care, made a good showing at about a quarter of the US. Seems to take more than nationalized health care.


I know this is an old discussion but I have been off sailing. My comment is not about foreign healthcare, although we have been pleased on the few times we have needed it in places like French Polynesia and Fiji. Rather it is about chart reading and the conclusions that one can and should draw. This looks like a chart from The Economist (great publication by the way, not sure why they call it a newspaper though). There are two sets of stats in the graphic. You use the bars graphs to suggest that the US is the most attractive destination for immigrants by saying that there are more in the US than in the next four countries combined. This is true, but the point is moot since the population of the US is more than 4x that of the other four. More instructive are the numbers to the right (foreign-born popn). Using this measure the US is not close to the highest so this would suggest that other places are highly attractive (Switzerland, Canada and Australia stand out). Don't know if this data includes illegal immigrants or not, but I suspect it does.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

killarney_sailor said:


> ......the point is moot since the population of the US is more than 4x that of the other four. More instructive are the numbers to the right (foreign-born popn). Using this measure the US is not close to the highest so this would suggest that other places are highly attractive (Switzerland, Canada and Australia stand out)......


While graphs can be misleading, I think this one is correct.

As the world's population considers where it might emigrate to, its decision is not based upon how many people are already in the destination country. The proper denominator would be the planet's population. More people on the planet chose to go to the US during that decade than any other country. That's what the graph is saying. The US would still be in the same relative attraction, whether it's population doubled or halved.


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## biology (Oct 25, 2012)

my two cents... and this will have nothing to do with which country has better care, is more affordable, provides faster care, or who has lower taxes. This isn't in response to anything anyone has said in particular, but a general response to comments about greed and/or money.

Care is based on the individual care provider, and there are good and bad people everywhere you go (in every way). There are good doctors everywhere you go, just more of them in some places...

On the point of the cost of healthcare, no matter where you go: don't be upset that your surgeon or physician wants to make good money. Doctors have worked incredibly hard to obtain their education and training, and sometimes the things they do are just plain amazing. 

Frankly, if a pediatric heart surgeon who can repair the still-beating heart of a premature neonate by hand and see that child become well enough to leave the hospital and live a healthy life, then if he or she wants to drive a Porsche or Ferrari and live in a huge house then I have absolutely no problem with that what-so-ever. Now let me contrast that with the money an NBA basketball star is making and I'll ask you which one is contributing more to humanity? People are willing to spend thousands (and thousands and thousands) of dollars on season tickets to professional sports while wearing their team sweatshirt they paid $100 for because it's got a licensed logo don't seem to have an issue with it. But then if they have to pay a co-pay for a surgery they're upset. 

Again, this is not in direct response to anyone or any post. Just an observation of where we spend our money and how I feel it's misdirected at times. 

Another thing to consider is that health care in the US is often expensive to make up for those that aren't paying for it. You go the emergency department here and you cannot be turned down based on your ability (or inability) to pay due to Federal law. Many of those bills go unpaid and the cost is recouped in other revenue streams. Nope, it doesn't actually cost a few grand to get an x-ray, but the last three people might not have been able to pay for theirs. Fair? nope... not saying it is, just saying it's a reality. Also, bear in mind hospitals have non-revenue departments that need to be paid for... like security, IT, grounds/maintenance.... They don't make money for the hospital, but that's going to have to be paid for too, thus procedures and care start looking expensive.

Anyway.... just wanted to interject a few of these thoughts. How any country pays for healthcare is not a simple equation. It's complicated stuff and is different from one region to another. I personally don't have any experience as a patient outside the US, but have taught emergency medicine in South America and feel confident that we take a lot of things for granted in North America, whichever country you're in.


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## therapy23 (Jul 28, 2007)

biology said:


> my two cents... and this will have nothing to do with which country has better care, is more affordable, provides faster care, or who has lower taxes. This isn't in response to anything anyone has said in particular, but a general response to comments about greed and/or money.
> 
> Care is based on the individual care provider, and there are good and bad people everywhere you go (in every way). There are good doctors everywhere you go, just more of them in some places...
> 
> ...


biology,

You are so right!

And the bolded part is why I do not and will not support professional sports of any kind. (I also hate t-ball through high school stuff too).


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## Geoff54 (Oct 30, 2011)

tankersteve said:


> My wife recently had a significant surgery. It was handled expeditiously, outsourced to a top-notch surgeon in Nashville. No issues, but Tricare capped the payment to the doctors at approximately $9k. It was billed at $38k, so there must be a pretty significant markup.


'Glad that this worked out ok but you are only seeing this from one side. It's not that there is a significant mark up as such, it's that insurance companies demand large discounts, which has created inflated charges. (Tricare is effectively acting as a government medical insurance company).

Not so long ago, if you were sick or injured, you went to a medical provider (doctor, hospital, etc.) where you were treated. There was some flexibility but mostly there was a charge for whatever you had done and you paid it.

Then someone figured that they could take the uncertainty out of your personal medical costs and make a profit, by providing a service - you paid them a regular amount and they paid for your medical treatment. Medical insurance was born and it created some upward pressure on medical costs because they were no longer as constrained by how much you could afford to pay. But this was minor compared with what happened next.

As employers started to contribute to medical insurance and more and more people were covered, the insurance companies, with an eye on their profits, created networks of approved medical providers and negotiated discounts for services with those providers. As the insurance companies got bigger, it reached the point where doctors and hospitals couldn't survive if they weren't part of the network, so the insurance companies negotiating power became greater and greater and they demanded bigger and bigger discounts. But the medical providers still had to make a living, so they started increasing their fees to compensate. This created an upward pressure on "published" prices across the medical community.

We are now at the stage where published charges are much greater than are actually being paid - as long your medical costs are being paid my an insurance company, that is. The problem is that some poor smuck who is uninsured or not covered by their particular insurance, ends up paying a very inflated price. Sometimes a doctor will try to help those who pay out of pocket and who don't have much money by "cheating" on the billing but it is a big risk for them.

And this is only one of the problems. But of course, we don't need healthcare reform.


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