# Do you carry firearms while cruising?



## rockDAWG

I don't even own a BB gun, but just wonder if any of you carry guns while cruising to unfamiliar ports?

What kind do you carry? handgun, shotgun, machine gun?
Where ? 
1. when cruising within U.S. water?
2. Caribbean?
3. Around the world? 

I have met a sailor who circumnavigated the world a few times in his 17 years living in his boat. He told me that he never carry firearms. He said guns bring more trouble with the local authority. But the time has changed. How to protect yourself and your love ones.


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## jackdale

Do you really want to do this?

I suggest that you search the archives for previous "discussions."


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## DwayneSpeer

A 50 millimeter flare gun becomes a pretty fearful weapon when pointed directly at someone at close range but you only get one shot and it won't deter someone that really wants to come aboard and do harm.

No, I don't carry any other weapons.


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## puddinlegs

rockDAWG said:


> I don't even own a BB gun, but just wonder if any of you carry guns while cruising to unfamiliar ports?
> 
> What kind do you carry? handgun, shotgun, machine gun?
> Where ?
> 1. when cruising within U.S. water?
> 2. Caribbean?
> 3. Around the world?
> 
> I have met a sailor who circumnavigated the world a few times in his 17 years living in his boat. He told me that he never carry firearms. He said guns bring more trouble with the local authority. But the time has changed. How to protect yourself and your love ones.


Speaking only for myself, If I thought carrying a gun in US or Canadian waters were at all necessary, I'd move to rural Idaho and circle the wagons. I know of three different boatloads of friends and aquaintances currently circumnavigating. None are carrying weapons, nor do they ever plan to.


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## flyingwelshman




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## cb32863

What JackDale said.......


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## mdbee

Yep, do a search. I think it's all been said before, multiple times.

Although "wasp spray" does put out a pretty good stream...


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## MedSailor

Times have only changed in the gulf of aden. All I have changed is my plan before which was "I doubt I want to sail through the Suez canal" to my new plan which is "I will NOT sail down the red sea." 

I would love to carry firearms, it would make me feel more secure as do my bilge pumps, fire extinguishers and as an EPIRB would. Unlike the other items mentioned, firearms are a huge hassle, so I don't bring them to avoid the hassle.

MedSailor


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## jrd22

No firearms because we go into Canada and it's a hassle. I am going to get a Bear Banger though when we stop somewhere up there that has a sporting goods store so I can carry something better than the flare gun when we go on hikes.


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## omaho5

*Guns*

I own 'em. but never carry.


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## tdw

Oh crap , here we go again.

Look the whole world knows how dear to the heart of the average citizen of the good ol' USA is the 2nd Amendment but to be frank we don't really care. It is your right and privilege....in the USA....nowhere else.

If you take guns into most other nations around the globe you will at best have them confiscated, at worse you'll go to gaol, indeed you'll go directly to gaol, 'go' is not a waypoint on this particular chart, nor is collecting $200.00. 

Now you may well sit on your high horse and let those damned fureners know that they are trampling on your Gard Given Rights but you'll be doing it, eg, in an Indonesion gaol, and that is not a fun place to be, high horse or no high horse. Of course there may well be people reading this who are not in the least bit threatened by the thought of unprotected anal sex, hiv-aids, dysentry and hepatitis though I suspect their number is few so I'm preaching to the rest of you. 

The point then really is moot. Whether you would like to carry, whether it is you right and privilege to do so you would be a very silly person indeed if you did so outside of US territory.


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## Danny33

Sounds like TDW wishes he could but lives in the wrong country and would ever figure out which end to point at the target


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## cb32863

The problem is that most in the US don't even know the full text of the 2nd amendment.... they just like to cut off that part about a well regulated militia being the reason we all get to have our guns..... look it up and read it.


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## bljones

Danny33 said:


> Sounds like TDW wishes he could but lives in the wrong country and would ever figure out which end to point at the target


English- do you speak it?


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## DubeJ

I will carry when I am out, every time. I will carry a .44 mag lever action, as the same size round works for a revolver. I know that it is a hassle, but I have arrested too many pirates and been around too much bad stuff to not. I wish I didn't know what I know, but then again, don't we all.


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## Sixpoint

cb32863 said:


> The problem is that most in the US don't even know the full text of the 2nd amendment.... they just like to cut off that part about a well regulated militia being the reason we all get to have our guns..... look it up and read it.


"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

That's every bit of it, according to the national archives...

Bill of Rights Transcript


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## dhays

tdw said:


> Oh crap , here we go again.


You made a very valid point, that carrying a firearm in many locals can result in significant legal complications. What may be legal in the US, should not be construed to be legal elsewhere.

That point could also have been made without being quite so condescending and inflammatory.

Just sayin'...


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## mdbee

*CB, More reading for you*

You might do a bit more reading:

"The Second Amendment (Amendment II) to the United States Constitution is the part of the United States Bill of Rights that protects the right to keep and bear arms. It was adopted on December 15, 1791, along with the rest of the Bill of Rights.

Two Supreme Court rulings, District of Columbia v. Heller (2008) and McDonald v. Chicago (2010), clarified the meaning of the Second Amendment. *In Heller, the Court ruled that the Second Amendment protects an individual's right to possess a firearm (unconnected to service in a militia)*[1][2] and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home. Additionally, the Court enumerated several longstanding prohibitions and restrictions on firearms possession that it found were consistent with the Second Amendment.[3] In McDonald, the Court determined that the Second Amendment limits state and local governmental authority to the same extent that it limits federal authority."
Second Amendment to the United States Constitution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
[



cb32863 said:


> The problem is that most in the US don't even know the full text of the 2nd amendment.... they just like to cut off that part about a well regulated militia being the reason we all get to have our guns..... look it up and read it.


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## dhays

DubeJ said:


> I will carry when I am out, every time. I will carry a .44 mag lever action, as the same size round works for a revolver. I know that it is a hassle, but I have arrested too many pirates and been around too much bad stuff to not. I wish I didn't know what I know, but then again, don't we all.


It seems to me that it comes to balancing a number of opposing factors.

 Carrying a firearm can lead to legal issues in most non-US ports and possibly even in some US ports.
 Having a weapon available could possible prevent injury and death to your person.
 Having a weapon available could possibly escalate an encounter with those with criminal intent from robbery to violence.
 There is also the question of when and if the cruiser is willing to use deadly force. Not a simple question for any but the simple minded.
 Perceived risks in your particular cruising grounds.

I can see folks evaluating the above and coming to very different conclusions based on how much weight they give to each of those considerations.


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## dhays

mdbee said:


> You might do a bit more reading:
> 
> "The Second Amendment (Amendment II) to the United States Constitution is the part of the United States Bill of Rights that protects the right to keep and bear arms. It was adopted on December 15, 1791, along with the rest of the Bill of Rights.
> [


Yeah, but the OP question was about carrying a firearm on board a vessel, not about the 2nd Amendment to the US Constitution.


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## HDChopper

Ive owned MANY & gave them all away ( not sold given)..

Thier comes a time one understands your mind is faster than a bullet & sharper than a knife.

Needless to say I have no fear in me & haven't for a long time . hopefully getting into the middle of the ocean might bring some back ...but I dout it


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## cb32863

mdbee said:


> You might do a bit more reading:


I am fully aware of all of that. Most people aren't was my point.


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## omaho5

Now, now. I was of the opinon that this IS a sailing forum. This s not to be meant as a forum of digression into the keeping of firearms.
We cannot even have a discussion about 'em without some hostility.
Nuff said already.
We share a COMMON love...SAILING. not deadly force


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## WanderingStar

All ranting and slights aside, no, I don't carry a gun aboard or ashore. I do own some and I'm well trained in their use.


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## QuickMick

while im stateside only i do have one of these:: SIG witht the 'double action kellerman' setup. the only safety is between your ears...


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## gulfcoastcruiser

Glock 9mm. I never leave home without it.

I do however leave it secured in my automobile when only going out for a day sail. If I am going out overnight or longer the Glock comes along as well.

I do NOT currently sail outside of U.S. waters. In the future if I am to venture further I will take a look at the laws of the foreign ports before making a decision. I have read that it is possible to convert a flare gun to shoot a regular 12 gauge shell and this may be what I do in the future.


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## remetau

I believe that people get out of life exactly what they are looking for. I personally don’t entertain the idea of trouble in my life that would ever require a firearm, and therefore I don’t own one.


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## mdbee

*Response*

So, we aren't allowed to respond to other posters in this thread?



dhays said:


> Yeah, but the OP question was about carrying a firearm on board a vessel, not about the 2nd Amendment to the US Constitution.


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## mdbee

*Point*

Sorry, I suppose I missed your point. In fact I'm still not sure I understand it. Sorry to be so thick headed. 



cb32863 said:


> I am fully aware of all of that. Most people aren't was my point.


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## SEMIJim

rockDAWG,

The rantings of the USAian pro- and anti-RKBA factions, and the condescending lectures from those outside the U.S. aside: I would suggest you not consider it. You are correct in your observation that "times have changed," but the ways they've changed in the U.S. are the opposite of the ways they've changed in the rest of the world with respect to governments recognizing an individual right to self defense. If you get caught with a firearm in the vast majority of jurisdictions throughout the world outside the U.S.: The _best_ you can probably hope for is they'll merely confiscate your firearm(s). As for inside the U.S.: Even that might be tricky. Most U.S. jurisdictions have prohibitions against carrying a concealed weapon, and having a loaded, ready-to-use firearm in your transportation is regarded by many jurisdictions as "carrying a concealed weapon."

Even if you were in U.S. waters, possessed a state-issued carry license, and that state's carry license was recognized and honoured by the jurisdiction you were in: Anything other than a concealed pistol might be a violation. (Michigan, where I live, issues Concealed _Pistol_ Licenses," not concealed weapon licenses. The distinction is critical.) Note that violating U.S. state or federal weapons laws is often a felony.

Jim


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## rockDAWG

jackdale said:


> Do you really want to do this?
> 
> I suggest that you search the archives for previous "discussions."


My original post is not looking for discussion. I am looking for Yes and No answers for my questions to those reading this post NOW and not in the past. I don't need the reasoning or justification behind the answer. If you really try to help here.

You can do the followings:
1. Do a thorough search yourself.
2. Read and write a concise summary of your finding
3. Report back to Sailnet

If you are unwilling to do so, please stay out from my post. You are not welcome here. Please stop harassing others when the question is too boring for you. I have noticed you frequent harassing others, please stop and don't give Sailnet community a bad name. Please go somewhere else to do the trolling.

I thank you for those who took time to reply. Based on the feedback, it looks like that carrying guns is not the norm in the sailing/cruising community. This is a radical difference from the HD riders. Both enjoy the slow speed of cruising with wind in the face, but totally different approaches with dealing with guns.

I am not a gun person, so it is a welcoming trend and one less thing to learn.


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## diogenes726

*Firearm Survey*

If you just wanted a 'Yes' or 'No' why not just take a poll?


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## T37Chef

That flare gun used in Captian Ron worked pretty well IMO  LOL


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## mdbee

*Uscg*

Just curious if anyone has ever experienced or heard of an issue with the USCG and weapons on board? (while not committing other offenses, like drugs or boating intoxicated)

I have heard that they ask if there are weapons aboard and they see that they are secured while making an inspection. I would assume they would run a check on the captain for a criminal record?

I would also assume that the USCG can't enforce local firearm regulations but may make a report to local agencies?

This is all academic, I also don't see a need to regularly carry while on board in the areas I sail.


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## SEMIJim

mdbee said:


> Just curious if anyone has ever experienced or heard of an issue with the USCG and weapons on board?


It is my _understanding_ the USCG abides by local laws, where applicable.


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## cb32863

mdbee said:


> Sorry, I suppose I missed your point. In fact I'm still not sure I understand it. Sorry to be so thick headed.


No worries. 

rockDAWG - Dude, calm down..... No need to get all cranky now. If you don't want opinions, don't ask the question.


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## erps

Local waters in Washington State: Yes
Canada: No
International: undecided.


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## rockDAWG

cb32863 said:


> rockDAWG - Dude, calm down..... No need to get all cranky now. If you don't want opinions, don't ask the question.


I am too damn old and get constipated all the time. Look Jr, I will play nice if you play nice and don't be a troll.


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## Sixpoint

Been in law enforcement for fifteen years now. At home, I'm pretty interested in guns. In recreational boating...I'll just say that if I felt like I needed to carry on the boat, I wouldn't boat. The novelty of carrying wore off years and years ago.

My advice, if anyone wants it, would be not to carry unless you are highly trained and very proficient, not only in the use of firearms but in the use of lethal force in general and the legal/moral implications of such.

Seems to me that unless you're cruising in pirate infested waters, carrying a gun is making an issue out of something that would otherwise almost certainly never be an issue.

Peace,

6P


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## W3ODF

I'm new to sailing and hope to someday cruise the world. I am not new to firearms, self-defense, and improvised weapons though and consider myself something of an expert on physical and personal security doing consulting/ training in it as well. I do carry a weapon with me much of the time. Though as Mick said; the safety is between your ears. My weapons are always between my ears as well. Even if I have a firearm (and I have permits), I often have a blade as well. Also, a hot cup of joe works wonders against someone. 

The only reason I am chiming in, b/c I do realize this is a hot issue, is to hopefully save someone a painful learning experience. Flare guns cannot be converted to shoot regular 12 gauge shells. Don't try it - unless you put in a vise and pull it with a string - from far away. That said, a flare coming out of a flare gun is probably just as good as buckshot, ball, slug, etc. I've used the 26.5mm Czech flare guns in military simulaton exercises and even firing them horizontally on the range. They are very reliable and if you hit someone with it you can expect a horrible wound pattern from concussive as well as thermal factors. 

Another option is to look into a cheap paintball gun/pistol and carry CO2 12 gram cartridges. Paintballs are prone to deterioration in humid weather therefore you might decide to mold or craft your own projectiles. This still provides deterrence, especially if piracy is an issue. Also, for whatever you do choose to do, I would suggest training if you expect to utilize it. There is nothing worse than using an untried weapon in a fight. That is a recipe for disaster. 

Lastly, you need to think long and hard on all of this. Because, even if you win an altercation you can expect to suffer psychologically as well as physically and financially (legal repercussions). Aftermath, even for a survivor can be traumatic. 

Ultimately, avoidance is the best option, whether armed or not. 

Kind Regards,


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## rockDAWG

SEMIJim said:


> rockDAWG,
> 
> The rantings of the USAian pro- and anti-RKBA factions, and the condescending lectures from those outside the U.S. aside: I would suggest you not consider it. You are correct in your observation that "times have changed,"
> Jim


Good call. The anti-Americanism around the world concerns me. The economic hardship worldwide and local unrest create a situation is not quite suitable to the peace loving cruiser who happened to passing by. We can become a sitting duck in the middle of nowhere. A paradise can become hell in a second.

I will accept some calculated risk when cruising outside the U.S. How much you can protect yourself becomes an issue.


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## W3ODF

rockDAWG said:


> I don't even own a BB gun, but just wonder if any of you carry guns while cruising to unfamiliar ports?
> 
> What kind do you carry? handgun, shotgun, machine gun?
> Where ?
> 1. when cruising within U.S. water?
> 2. Caribbean?
> 3. Around the world?


My bad,

1. Smith & Wesson 4506 .45ACP. Ranger XTS-10 LE Grade/ Black Talons. Also carry a blade (usually an auto opener). Gun is stowed in my day pack, accessible though. Blade in my pocket.
2. Haven't been ther yet. Still deciding.
3. See #2


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## Noworries87

Im brining my 12 gauge with me and an Ar-15 just in case


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## SEMIJim

Noworries87 said:


> Im brining my 12 gauge with me and an Ar-15 just in case


I'd reconsider. Brining your guns will certainly damage them.


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## puddinlegs

W3ODF said:


> My bad,
> 
> 1. Smith & Wesson 4506 .45ACP. Ranger XTS-10 LE Grade/ Black Talons. Also carry a blade (usually an auto opener). Gun is stowed in my day pack, accessible though. Blade in my pocket.
> 2. Haven't been ther yet. Still deciding.
> 3. See #2


An armed man in a Widgeon! Now that's a hoot! Tough local fleet.

Blades... everyone on the boat has a proper knife. Large blade in the cockpit or strapped to the vang. All for boat safety, not for protection.

It seems there is a larger cultural issue. Anecdotally, it appears west coast sailors are less likely to be armed.


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## W3ODF

puddinlegs said:


> Blades... everyone on the boat has a proper knife. Large blade in the cockpit or strapped to the vang. All for boat safety, not for protection.


Serious question.. what do you use it for? Would you ever have to cut sheets or lines?


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## cb32863

W3ODF said:


> Serious question.. what do you use it for? Would you ever have to cut sheets or lines?


Yes, they can come in handy in various situations, emergency and otherwise. Always carry a good rigging knife.


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## jackdale

cb32863 said:


> Yes, they can come in handy in various situations, emergency and otherwise. Always carry a good rigging knife.


+1

A rigging knife is essential when tethered. Mine also has a shackle key and a marlinespike. It also has a bottle opener, but I prefer canned beer on board.

The knife attached to the vang on my last delivery was to cut the liferaft cannister free.

No guns - Canadian, eh?


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## carl762

Gun threads always go to @#)#)#)(.

So, my answer is "Don't Ask, Don't Tell."


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## rmeador

If you live aboard, and you exercise your 2nd A rights, do you really have a choice? It isn't always about protection. Though if you carry on land, I'd be puzzled that you did not on the water (aside from the hassle of visiting other countries). I've looked into sailing around the Caribbean with firearms and it seems possible. Most customs will allow you to check your firearms with them for the duration of your stay in the country. It seems to not be a big deal as long as you don't try to bring them _into_ the country. But I have no plans to go anywhere outside MA, NH and ME, so it's a non-issue for me.


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## NCountry

Wrist Rocket Sling Shot.....I shoot medium sized ball bearings with it. Leaves large holes, easy to handle. Started learning after reading all the fun gun threads on sail net.
Mostly inland waters and finally a little coastal... U.S.
(Am wondering about legality in foreign ports?)


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## rockDAWG

carl762 said:


> Gun threads always go to @#)#)#)(.
> 
> So, my answer is "Don't Ask, Don't Tell."


Don't have to be, just have to be civilized and respect other's choice


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## rockDAWG

NCountry said:


> Wrist Rocket Sling Shot.....I shoot medium sized ball bearings with it. Leaves large holes, easy to handle. Started learning after reading all the fun gun threads on sail net.
> Mostly inland waters and finally a little coastal... U.S.
> (Am wondering about legality in foreign ports?)


When I was a young boy, I was an expert with that. I used to shoot sparrows with it in the rice field. i shot the neighbor's cat too. Man i was bad.


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## ironworker

First of all, I am on an inland lake so international laws do not concern me. I have a permit to carry and do so on a regular basis. I take my pistol with me almost every time I go out on the water unless I am waterfowl hunting, in that case if a 10 guage won't protect me well enough then it is just my time to go!!


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## puddinlegs

Let me preface what I'm about to say. First off, no trouble with people carrying what they want. It's the law of the land like it or not. The bigger question is this; as a kid, everyone had hunting rifles, all pump or bolt action, small clips, etc... schools closed first day of deer season. We all were required to take hunters' safety and even learned to shoot bow & arrow in public school gym class in Jr. High. Only pistols anyone had were bear hunters and others with war souvenirs. I never knew anyone power or sail who ever carried a gun on a boat unless it was being transported to a hunting cabin or the like. To this day, I don't know anyone personally who boats with a gun on board. It seems like many of the gun toters here are in Ohio, Tenn, Tx, FL, etc... and not on the west coast. Any Great Lakes sailors following the thread sail armed? Looks like one PNW'er is carrying... personally, I've never felt I've had anything to fear that I felt the need to carry including 3 years spent living in E. Oakland CA. I guess I don't understand living with the fear necessary to feel the need even though it's fine and dandy with the law, particularly when out enjoying life on the water. I'm more likely to have a problem with a whale or get hit by lightning than have a confrontation w/ a human that would require a gun


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## erps

> I guess I don't understand living with the fear necessary to feel the need even though it's fine and dandy with the law,


Good post puddin. Although what some call making a choice out of fear, others might call making a choice out being self reliant.


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## tdw

dhays said:


> You made a very valid point, that carrying a firearm in many locals can result in significant legal complications. What may be legal in the US, should not be construed to be legal elsewhere.
> 
> That point could also have been made without being quite so condescending and inflammatory.
> 
> Just sayin'...


You may be correct re inflammatory but I don't think condescending is fair.

Really all I was trying to do was avoid the usual 2nd Amendment brouhaha.

In general....

If we are talking international cruising then one's rights as a citizen of the US are to a large extent irrelevent. You cannot claim US law or US rights and privileges as a defence outside of the territories of the USA.

In the past when we have had this debate remarks have been made suggesting that if e.g. Australia will not allow the overseas visitor to 'carry' then to hell with Australia we won't go there. Fair enough comment. Stay away but it's not that we don't want you its just that you will cause yourself a lot of grief if you come here and carry.

Danny33...."Sounds like TDW wishes he could but lives in the wrong country and would ever figure out which end to point at the target".....I'm with BLJones in wondering whether English is your first language or even your second but having a stab at deciphering the gibberish....you are proposing, I gather, that I secretly harbour a burning desire to live clasped to the bosom of Ms Liberty in the good old US of A but sadly for me I am doomed to live elsewhere. Further I suspect, though please correct me if I am wrong, you are suggesting I wouldn't know which end of a gun is which. Not so my good man, not so at all. You are wrong on both counts. I'm more than happy with my home amongst the gum trees and the kangaroos. As for my knowledge of shooters, my bowels are moved by one end of a gun and not by t'other. Knowledge sufficient I suspect.

DHays.....now that was condescending.....


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## steel

Hey you know what's missing in this thread?

There has not been one mention of throwing stuff overboard. You're surrounded by water. If the government agents are coming to inspect your boat, and you'll get in trouble if they find the gun, you can always get rid of it real fast by putting it over the other side.

That would only be for certain places where you would get in trouble, for instance you for some reason had to stop in Jamaica. A assume in other cases the customs authorities will keep them for you as others have said.

Jamaica is a sad case. Here is an interesting story of how all the guns were confiscated by the government and within a short time armed gangs were roaming the streets. How Gun Control "Worked" in Jamaica, by Tina Terry


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## carl762

> Don't have to be, just have to be civilized and respect other's choice


Sad to say, but it's usually the left side that attacks my right to own firearms. I have a carry permit for Oregon, Washington and am legal in a total of 7 states.

I'll maintain my "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" status as far as when and if I carry. It's always legal, I can tell you that.

Thinking a folding stock 762x39, chrome lined barrel, couple of 30 round plastic mags, would be the perfect boat gun. That is "if" I were to carry on das Boot!!!


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## puddinlegs

erps said:


> Good post puddin. Although what some call making a choice out of fear, others might call making a choice out being self reliant.


Interesting... again, I get the whole 'going to the hunting cabin by boat' thing and would do so myself, but I think a fishing pole and crab pot would go a lot further in the self-reliance game... not to mention solar panels and/or a wind generator.


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## dhays

mdbee said:


> So, we aren't allowed to respond to other posters in this thread?


Heck, I'm not a moderator. You can respond any way you want.

I just the think the question of whether to carry a firearm while cruising is an interesting and valuable discussion. I'd hate to see it get derailed by a 2nd Amendment religious war.


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## SEMIJim

puddinlegs said:


> Any Great Lakes sailors following the thread sail armed?


I have a Michigan CPL. (For those of you not familiar with that, it means I've taken a course in firearms safety, and the legal and ethical issues surrounding the use of deadly force, as well as proven a modicum of proficiency in being able to fire a handgun, so I'm licensed to carry one concealed most places.) As somebody else noted, previously: It's a burden, not a luxury. Nonetheless: Sometimes I carry. Most times I don't, because it's simply not practical. I have yet to have carried on either of our boats for reasons of practicality. It would get in the way and I don't feel comfortable stashing it just anywhere on the boat. Nor am I comfortable leaving a firearm in the car.



puddinlegs said:


> I guess I don't understand living with the fear necessary to feel the need even though it's fine and dandy with the law, particularly when out enjoying life on the water.


There _is_ a part of town thru which we travel, to-and-from the boat, where folks have been attacked and beaten by roving gangs of "disadvantaged" youth over the last couple years. So I may figure out a way. Especially since, at my wife's and my age, we appear to be the kinds of targets these gangs have been going after.

It's not a question of "fear," so much as being prepared. People _have_ been attacked, and I don't regard myself as having some mystical immunity from the laws of chance. Otherwise I'd never play cards . I have a carry license and sometimes carry for the same reasons we lock the doors and windows to our house, cars and boats; have homeowners, automobile and boat insurance; have fire extinguishers at home and on the boats; have flares on the boats; wear PFDs while on the boats; and so on, and so on. The odds of any of these precautions ever actually having to come into play are slim. But better to have and not need, then need and not have.

Some people regard Americans, like me, as being the kind of person who's just _looking_ for an excuse to shoot somebody. Nothing could be further from the truth. True: I enjoy target shooting. But I no more look forward to having to defend myself with deadly force than I do having to file an insurance claim on one of the aforementioned properties. But, like the time I found myself having to file just such a claim, I'll be damned glad I prepared in advance if ever I'm forced into a position of having to defend myself, my wife or another.

Back to the subject-at-hand: Another of the reasons I've heretofore not carried on either of our boats is we boat on waterways that are on an international border. There are no lines drawn on the water. I would as lief not accidentally violate our neighbour's laws .

Jim


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## Houze66

I met a guy in Key West who sailed solo. He related what time and money it took to get himself out of some lousy prison because he had hidden a gun aboard and they found it. I did not ask why he had it aboard. But he did not carry again after that. I knew another trawler guy who showed me his pull-out galley that led to compartment under his deck mid-ships that he claimed dogs could not sniff out and metal sweeps could not ping. I did not see the guns, I did not go trawler but went s/v. So far here in ME waters I need nothing like a gun aboard--just maintenance on the boat and a real fear of hypothermia if I fall overboard. That would be shooting myself in the foot.


----------



## rockDAWG

dhays said:


> Heck, I'm not a moderator. You can respond any way you want.
> 
> I just the think the question of whether to carry a firearm while cruising is an interesting and valuable discussion. I'd hate to see it get derailed by a 2nd Amendment religious war.


Yes, dhays is right. We don't need 2nd Amendment discussion here. I don't even need anyone to justify their answer here. My question has no hidden agenda and no political motive:

If you have an option and ability to carry firearm while cruising away from your home port, would you carry one? Just a simple Yes or No answer. If you are willing to share your justification or reason, please do so. I hope no one will take offend to it. I am not here to convert anyone into something else.

Frankly I like brunettes myself. So if you like blondes, more brunettes for me. I am sure you've got my point.

Peace.


----------



## erps

an interesting follow up question might be how many more would pack internationally if other countries on your route allowed it? It would be a no brainer for me, but that's just me.


----------



## dhays

tdw said:


> DHays.....now that was condescending.....


Yes, but in that case it was well justified.


----------



## dhays

rockDAWG said:


> If you have an option and ability to carry firearm while cruising away from your home port, would you carry one? Just a simple Yes or No answer. If you are willing to share your justification or reason, please do so. I hope no one will take offend to it. I am not here to convert anyone into something else.


- I have no perceived need to carry a firearm in my normal cruising grounds (Salish Sea)

- I do cross into Canada on occasion and would not want to repay their hospitality by violating their laws.

- If I was to cruise in some parts of the world, I would be tempted to carry firearms on board for protection.

- However, given the legal complications of carrying weapons across national borders, I would most likely choose to avoid those areas where I would feel that having a weapon would be advisable.

Disclosure. While I don't have one now, I have had a Concealed Weapon Permit in Washington State. I have carried a concealed weapon in the past when I felt it advisable. I have also crossed state lines with a concealed weapon in my vehicle, something of questionable legality depending on the state. During the time I carried, I maintained proficiency with the weapon through regular practice and drill. I currently do not own a firearm for protection (or any other purpose) nor do I feel it warranted given my current life situation.


----------



## chall03

Wow Gee great another gun thread.......I guess we were probably about due. sigh. 

TD's point and tone is valid in that he has been around here long enough to know the sad reality that despite the OP's question being valid and reasonable, these threads always seem to have a way of getting all angsty despite the best of intentions. 

Hey it only takes one nut on either side of the debate to make a gross over-generalization and then off we all go....

Hmm anyway for what it is worth, I work in the media in Oz and over this side of the world at least once a year we run a story on an American who get's caught up in an Indonesian Gaol because of a firearms misunderstanding. The Irony being that even as a lefty non gun owning Aussie I can understand why people cruising Indo may wish to be armed...


----------



## DubeJ

It may be illegal in many places to own or carry a firearm at sea or at all, but I am not going to tell the pirates that are boarding my vessel that. "Hey guys, this is illegal, please stop or I will call the Coast Guard."


----------



## omaho5

This has gotten stupid.


----------



## chall03

chall03 said:


> Hey it only takes one nut on either side of the debate to make a gross over-generalization and then off we all go....





DubeJ said:


> It may be illegal in many places to own or carry a firearm at sea or at all, but I am not going to tell the pirates that are boarding my vessel that. "Hey guys, this is illegal, please stop or I will call the Coast Guard."


:laugher :laugher :laugher :laugher :laugher :laugher :laugher


----------



## SEMIJim

DubeJ said:


> It may be illegal in many places to own or carry a firearm at sea or at all, but I am not going to tell the pirates that are boarding my vessel that. "Hey guys, this is illegal, please stop or I will call the Coast Guard."


Realistically speaking: Unless you have something like an M4 (successor to the M16), AK47, or similar [*], plenty to feed it, know how to use it, and get it out in time, you're also not likely going to successfully fight off pirates. (And maybe not even then.) Plain old average personal self-defense firearms, such as a pump shotgun or a handgun? All-but-useless against a pirate attack. The best way to deal with pirates is stay out of their hunting grounds.

[*] None of which can be legally purchased by civilians, even here in the U.S. [**], contrary to what some would have people believe.
[**] There are non-trivial exceptions. But this is true as a general rule.

Jim


----------



## SEMIJim

omaho5 said:


> This has gotten stupid.


You're new, here, aren't you? 

Jim


----------



## tdw

SEMIJim said:


> You're new, here, aren't you?
> 
> Jim


laughing my arse off......

as for you Omaho....what this GETTING stupid business.......the online gun debate is way beyond getting and well past got......

and DubeJ....you may well not tell the pirates it is illegal but the Indonesian judge may be slightly more interested in legal niceties.


----------



## chall03

Oh the pirates the pirates......beware the pirates.
Sigh.

Where exactly do you plan to cruise DudeJ????

You planing a summer cruise down the Somali coast??

http://www.noonsite.com/Members/sue/R2010-07-22-1
There were no offical piracy attacks anywhere in the world in the first half of 2010.......more people died in rollerblading accidents and incidents involving sheep than pirate attacks...

So why is it you therefore feel you have the right to disrespect the people, and disregard the laws of the countries you wish to visit in order to defend yourself against the great epidemic evil that is world piracy??


----------



## jackdale

chall03 said:


> .....more people died in rollerblading accidents and incidents involving sheep than pirate attacks...


You collect some pretty weird statistics. 

I was read that bowling has its fair share of injuries. Do not ask me for the source.


----------



## dnf777

I am a huge supporter of gun rights and own many guns myself. If I find myself in a position that I feel the need to carry a gun for my safety, I find something else to do. I only carry guns when hunting or going to the range.

I suppose I could duck hunt out of my P-15, but would have to have camo-sails made, and that would clash with the hull decor.

And someone thought this was getting stupid!?


----------



## chall03

jackdale said:


> You collect some pretty weird statistics.
> 
> I was read that bowling has its fair share of injuries. Do not ask me for the source.


lol. I actually googled weird statistics 

I guess this all comes down to your definition of piracy as well..........I had some kids poking around my dinghy onshore the other day here in Sydney when I was silly enough to have left it unsecured .....were they pirates????? Should I just of shot them??? Does this mean Sydney is now a known piracy hot spot???


----------



## jackdale

chall03 said:


> lol. I actually googled weird statistics


47.23% of statistics are made up.


----------



## erps

> I guess this all comes down to your definition of piracy as well.


Is this piracy or just armed robbery?



> October 18, 2010 - Quepos, Costa Rica
> 
> "October 12 was both exciting and costly for us here in Costa Rica," write Bruce Stevens and Clark Nicholson of the Dana Point-based Gulfstar 50 Two Amigos. "We were anchored off the beach at a resort town of Quepos. About 7:30 p.m., while it was dark and we were below watching a movie, we were silently boarded by six or more heavily armed bandits carrying shotguns and pistols.


Latitude 38 - 'Lectronic Latitude


----------



## flyingwelshman

chall03 said:


> more people died in rollerblading accidents and incidents involving sheep than pirate attacks...


Why are you picking on sheep?


----------



## rmeador

SEMIJim said:


> ... M4 (successor to the M16), AK47, or similar [*]
> 
> [*] None of which can be legally purchased by civilians, even here in the U.S. [**], contrary to what some would have people believe.
> [**] There are non-trivial exceptions. But this is true as a general rule.


I see you note there are exceptions, but in this case, I think there are so many exceptions you can't consider it a general rule. You're right that you can't get an M4 (it's too new). But an M16, an AK47, or any other machine gun (even vehicle-mounted ones), manufactured before 1986, is legal to purchase, own, and use, provided you comply with your state's laws, pay a $200 tax to the federal government, and jump through a few paperwork hoops. If you live in a state such as NH with no gun laws to speak of, essentially the only restrictions on your ability to own an automatic weapon is the $200 tax and manufacture date prior to 1986 (and the cost of the firearm itself, which is sky high due to the short supply caused by the ban).


----------



## chall03

erps said:


> Is this piracy or just armed robbery?
> 
> Latitude 38 - 'Lectronic Latitude


Yeah I am hearing you ERPS........but thats my point.....what is onboard theft.....what is local opprtunistic crime and what is piracy???

There is a case to make that "onboard theft' or whatever has been on the increase if online reports are to be believed in the Caribbean, which would be of some concern to cruisers.

Onboard safety while cruising is actually a real genuine concern for me. The closest international cruising destination to Australia is Indonesia( 2 days passage from Darwin) where local crime and general anarchy is actually very much a legitmate bonafide concern. Another popular destination for Aussie cruisers is Papua New Guinea and particularly the Louisaddes Archipelago, poverty there is such that opportunistic theft is a real consideration..........from there aussies often go to the near Pacific, places like the Solomons and Fiji also have real security issues to be considered.

I have an issue though with this sensationalized image of piracy as a para-milatary force of men in RIBs with AK47's approaching you everytime you enter open ocean.....I think it tends to encourage folk to think that they need to be armed to the hilt and ever at the ready for marauding boarding parties while cruising..which is simple false. Theft and opportunistic crime is a fact of land based living as well.....it should be no great surprise that one finds parallels on the water........


----------



## erps

I just came across the site that records reports for the Caribbean. Venezuela appears to be a hot spot. Numerous robberies and assaults. What I noticed was that several skippers were able to ward off the robbers using a flare gun.

Check out the stats for Venezuela Islands and mainland.

VENEZMAINLAND

VENEZISLANDS



> BOARDED BY 2 MEN ABOUT 0200, ARMED WITH KNIVES. HELD KNIFE TO CAPTAIN'S THROAT. CAPTAIN ABLE TO FIRE FLARE GUN, SCARED BAORDERS AWAY, CAPTAIN BURNED BY FLARE GUN


----------



## rikhall

I am serious with this question. 

Have any of you who carry on board, had to use your firearm against any adversary while cruising in US Coastal waters? If so, in which states.

And no - rabid seagulls don't count, nor do sea fauna such as seals, sea lions etc.

Thanks

Rik


----------



## chrisncate

I will pack hot lead for your ass when I cruise. You do what you want.

Sorry :gunner


----------



## chall03

chrisncate said:


> I will pack hot lead for your ass when I cruise. You do what you want.
> 
> Sorry :gunner





chall03 said:


> Hey it only takes one nut on either side of the debate to make a gross over-generalization and then off we all go....


:laugher :laugher :laugher :laugher :laugher :laugher :laugher :laugher :laugher


----------



## chrisncate

chall03 said:


> :laugher :laugher :laugher :laugher :laugher :laugher :laugher :laugher :laugher


:laugher

Hi there..


----------



## chrisncate

Seriously though, I'm packing heat when we go. Is that nuts? I don't think so at all.


----------



## chall03

chrisncate said:


> :laugher
> 
> Hi there..


Thankyou for proving my point about nutter red necks.

You genuinely believe "packing hot lead for our asses" is a considered, reasonable approach which will convince countries like mine to open our arms to you and let you in firearms and all because clearly you are a responsible individual who would of course would never abuse deadly force???


----------



## chrisncate

chall03 said:


> Thankyou for proving my point about nutter red necks.
> 
> You genuinely believe "packing hot lead for our asses" is a considered, reasonable approach which will convince countries like mine to open our arms to you and let you in firearms and all because clearly you are a responsible individual who would of course would never abuse deadly force???


Oh come on, I am neither a nut or a *******, lighten up. I didn't mean to make anyone all upset with my attempt at humor.

I am not interested in guns at all, especially to the the point of endangering you or my host country with crazy cowboy shoot em up behavior. I think many cruisers can argue that there are dangers you can encounter on the sea that you might need to defend yourself from. There are any number of reasons why a cruising couple might need to defend themselves, espeically if they put themselves "way out there" in certain areas of the world.


----------



## jackdale

chrisncate said:


> Seriously though, I'm packing heat when we go. Is that nuts? I don't think so at all.


What communication system do you have? VHF. SSB. Sat Phone. MF Are you licensed to use them. Do you have a station license?

What are your carrying in your first aid kit? AED. Morpine. Gravol in suppository form. Dental extraction kit. Sutures?

What first aid / medical emergency training have you taken?

What is in your grab bag?

When was your liferaft tested?

Is your EPIRB registered?

Have you practiced your MOB? Upwind? Downwind? Anderson? Williamson?

Are you using a drogue or a sea anchor?

How many anchors are you carrying? What types? How much chain / rode?

Are your charts up to date?

These are some of the real questions.

Now if you are really worried about dying at sea, do not go. The sea will kill more often than pirates.


----------



## chall03

chrisncate said:


> Oh come on, I am neither a nut or a *******, lighten up. I didn't mean to make anyone all upset with my attempt at humor.
> 
> I am not interested in guns at all, especially to the the point of endangering you or my host country with crazy cowboy shoot em up behavior. I think many cruisers can argue that there are dangers you can encounter on the sea that you might need to defend yourself from. There are any number of reasons why a cruising couple might need to defend themselves, espeically if they put themselves "way out there" in certain areas of the world.


I'm not upset man it is all good....

But there are extremist views (yes on BOTH sides) and so I must admit I didn't take what you said as humour......a couple of    usually does the trick!

Cruiser's could definitively argue that......however the counter argument is that they are very difficult to impossible to have onboard for your typical world cruiser so it is actually a mote point....this may be getting a little away from the OP's original question though.


----------



## DubeJ

i like how those in favor of guns get so much slack, as if it makes us bad people.. 
I absolutely agree with most of you about the laws and the rights and the thinking that Americans are better, blah blah blah, but as for the most part, I was just answering the question. 
Owning a gun does not make someone, it is how they use it, much like owning a sailboat does not make you a sailor.


----------



## chrisncate

jackdale said:


> What communication system do you have? VHF. SSB. Sat Phone. MF Are you licensed to use them. Do you have a station license?
> 
> What are your carrying in your first aid kit? AED. Morpine. Gravol in suppository form. Dental extraction kit. Sutures?
> 
> What first aid / medical emergency training have you taken?
> 
> What is in your grab bag?
> 
> When was your liferaft tested?
> 
> Is your EPIRB registered?
> 
> Have you practiced your MOB? Upwind? Downwind? Anderson? Williamson?
> 
> Are you using a drogue or a sea anchor?
> 
> How many anchors are you carrying? What types? How much chain / rode?
> 
> Are your charts up to date?
> 
> These are some of the real questions.
> 
> Now if you are really worried about dying at sea, do not go. The sea will kill more often than pirates.


None of your questions are stumpers, we could discuss/debate passage making all day long. The sea I can handle. None of that has anything to do with the gun topic though, so I am not sure why you asked all those questions.

Anyhow, I feel no need to make a big deal out of cruising with a gun, this is not a huge issue for me. If you, or anyone else choose not to cruise with a gun, great. I would though, does that make me less of a sailor to you somehow? Truth is, either way, in any situation for either of us while underway, we both might wish we'd gone the other way on the topic. Let's hope neither of us ever have to find out.

Plus, there are sharktopi out there, so there is also that.


----------



## SEMIJim

rmeador said:


> I see you note there are exceptions, but in this case, I think there are so many exceptions you can't consider it a general rule.


Yeah, I can. Especially compared to the image portrayed by the "news" media, Hollyweird and the anti-gun organizations here in the U.S. and elsewhere in the world. These would have the world believe the average U.S. citizen can walk into their friendly local gun store, buy a fully-automatic assault rifle and walk out. Ain't true and hasn't been since the days of John Dillinger.



rmeador said:


> But an M16, an AK47, or any other machine gun (even vehicle-mounted ones), manufactured before 1986, is legal to purchase, own, and use, provided you comply with your state's laws,


Some states prohibit them entirely. Michigan being one of them. (I think there's a grandfather clause for those already owned when the ban went into effect. I'm not real clear on Michigan's full-auto law, because I've little interest in owning one--if for no other reason than I can't afford it.)



rmeador said:


> (and the cost of the firearm itself, which is sky high due to the short supply caused by the ban).


"Sky high" as in several thousands of dollars per firearm.

Jim


----------



## SEMIJim

chall03 said:


> But there are extremist views (yes on BOTH sides) ...


And, as already written, all it takes is one of them to let 'er rip and off we go!



chall03 said:


> ...and so I must admit I didn't take what you said as humour......a couple of    usually does the trick!


I believe that's what the :gunner was all about 



chall03 said:


> ...this may be getting a little away from the OP's original question though.


Bound to happen. Always does. But as long as we can all keep it civil, it's all good, in my view.



DubeJ said:


> i like how those in favor of guns get so much slack, as if it makes us bad people..


There are several things at work that make gun-owning Americans look like John Waynes or Rambos to the rest of the world. No use complaining about it or criticizing the critics. It is what it is. Let it go. You're _not_ going to change anybody's mind. Trust me on this one.

Jim


----------



## trisstan87

Having once had my front door kicked in by armed inturders in a nice neighborhood during the peak hours of a weekday afternoon I myself feel it is best to have a gun and not need it, then to need one and not have it. The scar on my head from being pistol whipped and the rememberance of just how close I came to meeting my maker is more than enough reason for me to justify carrying a firearm. So I say that yes,I will have a firearm, and I will keep it locked away and I hope it gets about as much use as my life raft will.


----------



## rockDAWG

jackdale said:


> What communication system do you have? VHF. SSB. Sat Phone. MF Are you licensed to use them. Do you have a station license?
> 
> What are your carrying in your first aid kit? AED. Morpine. Gravol in suppository form. Dental extraction kit. Sutures?
> 
> What first aid / medical emergency training have you taken?
> 
> What is in your grab bag?
> 
> When was your liferaft tested?
> 
> Is your EPIRB registered?
> 
> Have you practiced your MOB? Upwind? Downwind? Anderson? Williamson?
> 
> Are you using a drogue or a sea anchor?
> 
> How many anchors are you carrying? What types? How much chain / rode?
> 
> Are your charts up to date?
> 
> These are some of the real questions.
> 
> Now if you are really worried about dying at sea, do not go. The sea will kill more often than pirates.





chrisncate said:


> None of your questions are stumpers, we could discuss/debate passage making all day long. The sea I can handle. None of that has anything to do with the gun topic though, so I am not sure why you asked all those questions.


Exactly..... ChrisnKate.
Jackdale, please stay on the topic. It is so pathetic. If you want to talk how much you know, please start your own thread. If you can't stay on the topic, you are not welcome here. Let it go, please.


----------



## SEMIJim

rockDAWG said:


> Exactly..... ChrisnKate.
> Jackdale, please stay on the topic.


I'd argue that his point _is_ on-topic. Or at least as on-topic as many of the other comments in this thread. He's trying to put the "need" for a firearm aboard into perspective, just as I was doing in relating why I sometimes carry on shore, and why chall03 and erps have in some of their comments. You may not agree with Jack's reasoning, but that doesn't necessarily make it any less valid.



rockDAWG said:


> It is so pathetic. If you want to talk how much you know, please start your own thread.


These are some of the kinds of comments, personal attacks, that cause threads to go wrong. Please refrain from them. Thank you.

Jim


----------



## rikhall

trisstan87 said:


> Having once had my front door kicked in by armed inturders in a nice neighborhood during the peak hours of a weekday afternoon


Well, from what you say, we know that where you live is probably a pretty scarey place, but, what about where you sail / cruise??? I asked a day ago "Has anybody needed a gun on your boat against armed intruders in the US where you sail?" - no answers. I KNOW you cannot prove a negative and that 'no response" proves little as well. But - do we have any first hand experince here? Not "_my barber told me about his cousin who heard the paper boy say . . ._ "

And yes - I know the mantra that it is "better to have it and not need it . . ." But I also don't carry a parachute with me at all times.

Rik


----------



## rockDAWG

SEMIJim said:


> Bound to happen. Always does. But as long as we can all keep it civil, it's all good, in my view.


Yes, respect each others view. This is a free world, we make our own choices, we pick out our religion, we buy our own boat, we marry our own lady. It is certainly improper to force me to try your woman.  :laugher :laugher :laugher


----------



## AE28

_It is certainly improper to force me to try your woman._


----------



## rockDAWG

trisstan87 said:


> . The scar on my head from being pistol whipped and the rememberance of just how close I came to meeting my maker is more than enough reason for me to justify carrying a firearm. So I say that yes,I will have a firearm, and I will keep it locked away and I hope it gets about as much use as my life raft will.





rikhall said:


> I asked a day ago "Has anybody needed a gun on your boat against armed intruders in the US where you sail?" - no answers.
> 
> Rik


Both you and Trisstan have stated your own reason. Both are perfectly valid reasons, I respect that. From your and many others replies, I will form my own decision. Since I am not a gun person, it will be a burden for me to learn to properly handle a gun. The risk outweigh the benefit in my case. I will most likes not to carry a gun on my vessel. I will stay away from any problem areas. But I think within the U.S. coastal water, I feel safe.

Thank you for those expressed their views. I did not realize how deeply rooted of this controversy.

Life is short but good. Use it fully.


----------



## PalmettoSailor

rikhall said:


> Well, from what you say, we know that where you live is probably a pretty scarey place, but, what about where you sail / cruise??? I asked a day ago "Has anybody needed a gun on your boat against armed intruders in the US where you sail?" - no answers. I KNOW you cannot prove a negative and that 'no response" proves little as well. But - do we have any first hand experince here? Not "_my barber told me about his cousin who heard the paper boy say . . ._ "
> 
> And yes - I know the mantra that it is "better to have it and not need it . . ." But I also don't carry a parachute with me at all times.
> 
> Rik


Have you ever used the fire extinguisher on your boat?

Do you believe the fire extinguisher on your boat can handle any possible fire you might encouter?

Same logic applies to carrying a gun. Its no use until you need it. It might not be enough to actually solve the problem. However, it might just save the day.


----------



## carl762

Well put. 

Ooooo, this thread is so entertaining. I marvel at the fear some of you folks exhibit about guns in general. There's no changing your minds, and I won't even try. It's the same on any forum, any subject. 

Guns are tools, like fire extinguishers. Yes. 

When I was a kid, my dad and other kids' dads taught us about firearms, and safety, hunting, etc. Back when men were still men  .

Who knows what the modern liberals teach their kids. Scares the hell out of me, quite frankly.


----------



## NCountry

Actually, yeah, at our marina we did have someone try to break into our boat while we were sleeping onboard. They fell coming down the campanion way which woke everyone up and they were so startled when the fell that they jumped up and ran off. I don't know if they were armed but I saw enough to know there were at least 3 of them. I have no idea what would have happened if they had all managed to make it onto the boat but I definately sleep next to something a little bit stronger than a knife now.
Generally, our marina is VERY safe and nothing like this has ever happened before or since. In fact, the marina is so considered so safe by most of the boat owners that they don't even lock up their boats when they're gone.


----------



## W3ODF

I like the fire extinguisher analogy. 

The little pocket lakes around my area have had several criminal issues. I watched a domestic altercation while I was pulling my kayak. A friend of mine was propositioned for oral sex from a male prostitute at the State Park Marina Launch. And another launch area had a robbery. I am glad the sea is much safer. I can't wait to get away from the perps who flock to the waterside.


----------



## remetau

midlifesailor said:


> Have you ever used the fire extinguisher on your boat?


Yes. Had an alcohol stove fire on our previous boat.



midlifesailor said:


> Do you believe the fire extinguisher on your boat can handle any possible fire you might encouter?


Most likely



midlifesailor said:


> Same logic applies to carrying a gun. Its no use until you need it. It might not be enough to actually solve the problem. However, it might just save the day.


But I doubt somebody would steal my extinguisher and commit a crime with it let alone kill somebody with it.

I'm also not likely to kill another person with it by accident.

I'm also not likely to escalate a situation by pulling out my extinguisher.

I'm not saying that you don't have a right to carry a firearm if you deem it appropriate, but I have no use for it.


----------



## remetau

W3ODF said:


> A friend of mine was propositioned for oral sex from a male prostitute at the State Park Marina Launch.


Did he pull out his gun? :laugher :laugher :laugher


----------



## gulfcoastcruiser

The following incident happened at the marina next to mine.

Man charged with murder in fatal stabbing of victim on boat in Seabrook | abc13.com


----------



## QuickMick

if you want something that is easy to learn how to handle (ie streetsweeper) you might consider this. all be it i am a grown man w/no little kids around, and do keep my sidearm secured... as was mentioned you dont wanna bring a knife to a gun fight, or 'better to have it/not need it than need it not have it'
although there were some hooligans on a neighboring dock the other night trying (probably just to joy ride) a boat, and were scared off by an air horn.

http://www.mossberg.com/images/Mossberg_Guns/930/New/51340.jpg


----------



## remetau

gulfcoastcruiser said:


> The following incident happened at the marina next to mine.
> 
> Man charged with murder in fatal stabbing of victim on boat in Seabrook | abc13.com


What does this have to do with firearms on board while cruising?


----------



## rikhall

midlifesailor said:


> Have you ever used the fire extinguisher on your boat?


Yes and yes. I also know others who have.

Thanks

Rik


----------



## rikhall

carl762 said:


> Ooooo, this thread is so entertaining. I marvel at the fear some of you folks exhibit about guns in general. There's no changing your minds, and I won't even try.


I have no fear at all of guns. I neither own nor carry at this time. I have shot hand guns competitively. I was a Hunter Safety instructor and examiner in two provinces here in Canada. Guns were something I used to put meat in teh freezer or were for shooting at the range.

Me, personally, I know of no one who has needed a firearm while cruising on board in Canada nor in the US of A. I do know personally those who have needed a fire extinguisher.

If someone were to steal (or try to steal) my dingy or outboard, it would never cross my mind to shoot them (or at them). Its only a thing.

So - as long as you keep them in control and don't aim them in my direction (and you are in your own country) feel free to carry or not.

Shalom

Rik


----------



## QuickMick

everytime this comes up on a thread it always just goes wackadoo on both sides of the fence... the hassle factor of international regs (even us costal) even deepens the quagmire. ie, in TX the castle law states that i can have a gun in my house/car w/o a permit for self defense. i have gone through and obtained a CHL (conceal handgun lic), but dont really use it. only some states have reciprocity in regard to such licenses, also probably worth noting--at least in TX--if you hold a CHL you are held to a higher standard of the law. ie, they can site you for dwi/dui/bui(boating under the influence?) soley on the basis of suspicion. is the risk of international jail time worth the trade off of the safety factor? someone will always have a bigger stick _...or can you make a false bottom in your saloon library where it wont be found?_

guess like everything else... need to use vs risk of breaking some law... its just a crap shoot.

flaregun and gaff may be enough in most cases....

Q


----------



## erps

> So - as long as you keep them in control and don't aim them in my direction (and you are in your own country) feel free to carry or not.


Thanks. However, our right to carry extends beyond the boundaries of our country (USA) out into the ocean, beyond the boundaries of other countries.


----------



## jackdale

rikhall said:


> If someone were to steal (or try to steal) my dingy or outboard, it would never cross my mind to shoot them (or at them). Its only a thing.
> 
> Shalom
> 
> Rik


In Canada, this could get you into a whole pack of trouble.



> Police have charged an Alberta farmer who they say shot a suspected thief, then called friends and family to help hunt for the wounded man.
> 
> Brian Russell Knight, 38, who lives on a rural property in Tees, northeast of Red Deer, faces seven charges including assault, criminal negligence causing bodily harm and discharging a firearm, RCMP said on Friday.
> 
> "Don't take the law into your own hands," said Bashaw RCMP staff Sgt. Darrel Bruno. "Contact the police as soon as possible, because all you're doing to do is get yourself into trouble."
> 
> Read more: CBC News - Calgary - Farmer charged for chasing, shooting thief


----------



## chrisncate

My nightmare scenario is being on an uninhabited island or some other far flung locale, away from help, and running into some bad guys while I am alone with Cate. Use your imagination, think about the worst possibility. That is why I would carry while cruising.

Someone stealing my dink or other boat stuff would not necessitate me shooting (at) them, just "life or death" pirate scenarios where help is unavailable. Nor would I draw a gun on someone breaking into my boat while I am sleeping in a marina in the states. 

my 2c...


----------



## St Anna

erps said:


> Thanks. However, our right to carry extends beyond the boundaries of our country (USA) out into the ocean, beyond the boundaries of other countries.


Goooday Erps,

Well, you do what you want.

Oh, say Hi to Darwin for us  [at the award ceremony]


----------



## W3ODF

chrisncate said:


> My nightmare scenario is being on an uninhabited island or some other far flung locale, away from help, and running into some bad guys while I am alone with Cate. Use your imagination, think about the worst possibility. That is why I would carry while cruising.
> 
> Someone stealing my dink or other boat stuff would not necessitate me shooting (at) them, just "life or death" pirate scenarios where help is unavailable. Nor would I draw a gun on someone breaking into my boat while I am sleeping in a marina in the states.
> 
> my 2c...


CNC,

Very salient concerns. I have read similar stories on Noonsite. Something to also keep in mind is advance detection of someone coming onto the boat surreptitiously. Having a weapon is near useless if you cannot access it (i.e. asleep). Can you lock the hatch to your boat while you are asleep? Is there such thing as a proximity alarm (might even double for other boats and debris getting close while you are anchored. It might also become a nuisance as well and then it gets disregarded making less than worthless.


----------



## erps

> Goooday Erps,
> 
> Well, you do what you want.
> 
> Oh, say Hi to Darwin for us [at the award ceremony]


Funny, but not cool.


----------



## SEMIJim

St Anna said:


> Oh, say Hi to Darwin for us  [at the award ceremony]


And people wonder why otherwise civilized threads go awry? 

St Anna, please enlighten us: How would somebody provisioning themselves with arms make them _less_ likely to survive? (Assuming they're not going to run afoul of jurisdictions in which doing so is against the law, of course, as erps indicated.)



erps said:


> Funny, but not cool.


Was neither funny _nor_ cool, IMO.

Jim


----------



## Boasun

If you are fully parniod then you may want to put some trip wires at key points on your boat, Nail board (points up) on the ladder going below into your cabin.
But if you wake up thinking or knowing that some one has boarded your boat. Please remember those trip wires & nail boards so you don't fall into your own booby-traps.  Painic mode can cause you or your SO major pains. So be careful if you go this route....


----------



## St Anna

Ok,

I shouldnt have reacted, but as I said "do what you want to do" - most of you are just speculating and are just weekend warriors. You lot only base your views on your own daily experiences. Jeez, it must be scarily bad over there.

Now Jim, in answer to your question; hypothetical situation - you walk/ sail with your family into a drug deal and you pull out your firearm. [because, as erps did say; you feel that somehow you have a 'right' ]

What the issue is about for me is that it is arrogance that makes someone feel they need to have a firearm when cruising to other cultures. None of you are talking about protection against a crocodile for example.

Anyway , you go for it Jim.


----------



## jackdale

Boasun said:


> If you are fully parniod then you may want to put some trip wires at key points on your boat, Nail board (points up) on the ladder going below into your cabin.
> But if you wake up thinking or knowing that some one has boarded your boat. Please remember those trip wires & nail boards so you don't fall into your own booby-traps.  Painic mode can cause you or your SO major pains. So be careful if you go this route....


That worked for Slocum - he used tacks.


----------



## erps

> because, as erps did say; you feel that somehow you have a 'right'


It's not a feeling. It's international law.



> Yacht on the high seas carrying firearms
> 
> The basic principle under Customary International Law is that only the Flag State is entitled to exercise jurisdiction over a ship/yacht on the high seas. Therefore there is no legal prohibition on having firearms onboard on the high seas.


http://www.noonsite.com/Members/doina/R2005-12-09-3


----------



## u4ea

Saved my life once off Costa Rica. So yes, in some places, you take weapons. 

But if you have them, you must really, really be ready to kill someone. That's that hard part, and the part you can't trust others to do, even if you can trust yourself.

But in general, you really want to avoid places where you need guns, ashore as well as afloat.


----------



## St Anna

erps said:


> It's not a feeling. It's international law.


Sorry mate, that has to be the biggest load of BS ever said.

That comment is all I am complaining about. You carry 'arms' if you want to, but you do not have any legal standing anywhere in the civilised world.

Firearms must be declared and in most countries, they will be held in bond until you leave.

As to this post - let us agree that we think differently. I wont say any more on it.


----------



## erps

> Saved my life once off Costa Rica. So yes, in some places, you take weapons.


Did you have to shoot, or was displaying it enough? Were there any repurcussions with the law afterwards? Was it a declared firearm when you entered the country?


----------



## erps

St Anna said:


> Sorry mate, that has to be the biggest load of BS ever said.
> 
> That comment is all I am complaining about. You carry 'arms' if you want to, but you do not have any legal standing anywhere in the civilised world.
> 
> Firearms must be declared and in most countries, they will be held in bond until you leave.
> 
> As to this post - let us agree that we think differently. I wont say any more on it.


You didn't read the law I quoted did you. I'm speaking of international waters/high seas, not territorial waters of another country. My country's laws apply to me while I'm on the high seas. Show me where it says otherwise. Show me where I said the laws of my country extends into other countries. Show me where I even hinted I would not respect the laws of other countries.

You're mistaken St. Anna. Prove me wrong.


----------



## GeorgeB

Like clockwork, this topic raises its entertaining head every year sometime between haul-outs and spring launches. Methinks people are suffering withdrawals a little early this year.

The thing that seems odd to me is the most strident advocates of weapons are in the USA (landlock'd and East Coast states mostly). This is a place where, if you exclude West Marine, there is no piracy to speak of. So I'm wondering if these skippers are actually arming to protect themselves from the unmentionable, unimaginable. I'm talking *MUTINY* fellas! I don't know where you guys are finding crew, but perhaps you should look elsewhere. A skipper shouldn't have to use a gun to encourage a crewman to "grind faster". Likewise, a skipper shouldn't fear getting tossed overboard if he is extolling his crew to short tack up the city front. I think I'm on to something because, have you noticed, female skippers never see the need to be armed. I'm beginning to think that they make for better skippers. Again, have you noticed that the West Coast skippers tend not to be armed? Is it our laid back surfer culture? Some of the Northwest skippers are big advocates for weaponry and I'm thinking that with all the rain up there, they can only find manically depressed crew. Then there was the guy who was planning on sailing to Alaska and was fearful of marauding bears swimming out to the anchorage and ravaging him in his bunk. Think about it, this is all starting to make sense. Mutiny - the skipper's secret fear.

Next week I'll be sailing down to Cabo San Lucas, unarmed and unafraid. Yup, narco war Mexico, sailing down the smuggler route, anchoring in remote bays etc. I'll let you guys know how I fare when (if?) I get back.


----------



## SEMIJim

Boasun said:


> But if you wake up thinking or knowing that some one has boarded your boat. Please remember those trip wires & nail boards so you don't fall into your own booby-traps.  Painic mode can cause you or your SO major pains. So be careful if you go this route....


Voice of personal experience talking? :laugher

Jim


----------



## PalmettoSailor

rikhall said:


> Me, personally, I know of no one who has needed a firearm while cruising on board in Canada nor in the US of A. I do know personally those who have needed a fire extinguisher.


So a fire is a foreseeable emergency that you should be prepared to deal with, but an armed intruder whose intent is to hurt you and your family is an impossibility?



rikhall said:


> If someone were to steal (or try to steal) my dingy or outboard, it would never cross my mind to shoot them (or at them). Its only a thing.


It would never cross my either, but what if their intent was to rape your wife and daughter before taking your dingy?

I think current events in your Country aptly illustrate that you can find evil in unexpected places.


----------



## Minnewaska

chrisncate said:


> .......Nor would I draw a gun on someone breaking into my boat while I am sleeping in a marina in the states.


This is the only scenario that I think justifies a gun aboard. As soon as you awake, the bad guy is most likely going to run like heck. Be sure not to block their exit and force them in a corner. However, if they do not flee, they will be exactly the type of criminal that you will need a firearm to defend against.


----------



## PalmettoSailor

GeorgeB said:


> Next week I'll be sailing down to Cabo San Lucas, unarmed and unafraid. Yup, narco war Mexico, sailing down the smuggler route, anchoring in remote bays etc. I'll let you guys know how I fare when (if?) I get back.


Yep, Mexico like other "civilized" countries would crucify a ****** for merely possessing a firearm, though they are incapable of controlling rampant crime in the country including beheadings of Law Enforcement Officials with the audacity to look into the murder of an American boater (we'll Jetskier anyway).

Good luck, we all really hope you're not the next to earn 15 minutes of fame as a international crime victim.


----------



## erps

> Next week I'll be sailing down to Cabo San Lucas, unarmed and unafraid.


Good for you. Have a safe trip. What I expect is that you'll get nothing but respect for your decision from the folks with an opposing view. No smart ass remarks, no questions on your motive or your rational. It's too bad that respect doesn't go both ways.


----------



## SEMIJim

St Anna said:


> most of you are just speculating and are just weekend warriors.


Of course people are just speculating. What else? And what's a "weekend warrior," in this context?



St Anna said:


> You lot only base your views on your own daily experiences.


Nope. Have had no daily experiences, or experiences at all, with crime, so far, other than my cars having stuff stolen out of them on three different occasions.



St Anna said:


> Jeez, it must be scarily bad over there.


Not particularly. In fact: Contrary to what people think they know: Our over-all crime rate isn't nearly at the top of the heap, internationally. You'd be surprised at some of the countries that have higher over-all crime rates than does the U.S.



St Anna said:


> Now Jim, in answer to your question; hypothetical situation - you walk/ sail with your family into a drug deal and you pull out your firearm. [because, as erps did say; you feel that somehow you have a 'right' ]


Yeah, except that's not how a rational person would behave. A _rational_ person would take stock of the situation and think "Okay, I'm just going to get the hell outta here."

You see: _This_ is _just_ the attitude to which I referred earler: People thinking that armed Americans, _just because they're armed_, automatically become John Waynes and Rambos.

Doesn't happen. It doesn't happen probably thousands, perhaps millions of times a day, here in the Wild, Wild West.



St Anna said:


> What the issue is about for me is that it is arrogance that makes someone feel they need to have a firearm when cruising to other cultures.


"Arrogance?" Now it's _arrogance_ to wish to possess the means to defend you and yours when you're in a strange land? Okay, xenophobia, I'll give you. But "arrogance?" Where do you get _that_ from? Arrogance would be reflected in the confidence that these other cultures are _obviously_ so inferior to ours that the denizens wouldn't conceivably _think_ of attacking us.

You want to see arrogance, perhaps you should look in the mirror?



St Anna said:


> Anyway , you go for it Jim.


Go for what? Have you even _read_ my comments? Apparently not. I've been counseling _against_ carrying arms while cruising.

Jim


----------



## chrisncate

W3ODF said:


> CNC,
> 
> Very salient concerns. I have read similar stories on Noonsite. Something to also keep in mind is advance detection of someone coming onto the boat surreptitiously. Having a weapon is near useless if you cannot access it (i.e. asleep). Can you lock the hatch to your boat while you are asleep? Is there such thing as a proximity alarm (might even double for other boats and debris getting close while you are anchored. It might also become a nuisance as well and then it gets disregarded making less than worthless.


I plan on using any and all tools at my disposal (tacks on deck like Slocum used, trip lines, etc). It won't consume my life or anything, but I will take precautions as a default setting. And carry a gun once we leave and go offshore. I can't for the life of me figure out why any cruiser wouldn't take as many precautions as possible.

I am also truly amazed at the reaction of many of the other nationalities posting here. If I make it to your country, I hope I feel safe enough to share your viewpoint on gun ownership. I cant even imagine what it would feel like to not feel like a gun is a good idea for protection of your home/boat. I live 15 minutes from Baltimore though, and murders and brutal crime just exist here on a daily basis (not in my neighborhood of course). Maybe that clouds my view...

For the non americans here, keep in mind, the US is a violent place sometimes. We are all nuts here, and totally armed. It's cultural...:laugher


----------



## SEMIJim

erps said:


> You didn't read the law I quoted did you.


I think he's not reading most of what others are writing that does not agree with his world view.

(Yes, somebody finally annoyed me. But, you'll note, not because of their opposing view.)

Jim


----------



## DubeJ

If you like having a gun, and carrying one, do so. 
If you do not like it, do not. Either way does not make one arrogant, ignorant, rude, an arse, or anything.
I am just an arse as is, gun or no gun, ask my wife


----------



## Iflyka200s

*I'm not...*

A Cruiser,

but I am a pilot and I am allowed to carry a gun and am bound by Federal Law to do so (and use it). I also sit next to a fire extinguisher.

As a Florida resident and a carry permit holder, I am very much in favor of Florida's no retreat law.

I've never felt uncomfortable carrying a gun, or the idea that I might have to use it to prevent an incident.

No one asked, but if it were me, I'd rather have a really nice semi auto .22 rifle like a Ruger 10/22 carbine... With a pistol you have to work too hard. A rifle is much easier to shoot.

OK, debate back on!


----------



## puddinlegs

carl762 said:


> Who knows what the modern liberals teach their kids. Scares the hell out of me, quite frankly.


Speaking as a more or less modern liberal (used to be center of the road until all the definitions have changed of late), knock the generalizations off, eh? I'll teach my son gun safety, how to shoot, and allow him to hunt if he wishes when he's old enough. He'll be welcome to own a rifle or shotgun. He'll be raised to have enough self-confidence, physical skill, and situational awareness to not to feel the need to arm himself against his fellow citizens (short of civil war of course). Strangely enough, it seems to get the vast majority of the citizenry through their days in peace and safety. Of course, if you'd like to carry, I'm fine with that as well. It's the law of the land. I don't feel the need myself, but that's my issue and not of concern to others... not looking to change anyones mind at all. It's time and $$$ better spent sailing.


----------



## puddinlegs

DubeJ said:


> If you like having a gun, and carrying one, do so.
> If you do not like it, do not. Either way does not make one arrogant, ignorant, rude, an arse, or anything.


Well said, and thank you!


----------



## erps

Good posts again puddin. I was with you until:



> He'll be raised to have enough self-confidence, physical skill, and situational awareness to not to feel the need to arm himself against his fellow citizens


many of us who are trained in situational awareness (law enforcement) came to a different conclusion


----------



## chall03

SEMIJim said:


> There are several things at work that make gun-owning Americans look like John Waynes or Rambos to the rest of the world. No use complaining about it or criticizing the critics. It is what it is. Let it go. You're _not_ going to change anybody's mind. Trust me on this one.
> 
> Jim


The assumption that minds are set and cannot be changed is fairly cynical and not necessarily true here. Call me naive, but I believe with civility and open minds at least we might be able to understand each other's perspective....you guys have a role in either confirming or changing our 'rambo' view 

Responsible intelligent gun owning American's actually gave me cause to pause and consider last time this thread came around. CD among other's went to the trouble of explaining what this 2nd amendment was all about, rather than just proclaiming it loudly in my face and he explained to me the cultural context in which people in his town generally all owned firearms, had been raised how to use and own them responsibly, and that this did make people stop and think twice before they broke into someone's house and knocked off their TV.....



chrisncate said:


> My nightmare scenario is being on an uninhabited island or some other far flung locale, away from help, and running into some bad guys while I am alone with Cate. Use your imagination, think about the worst possibility. That is why I would carry while cruising.
> 
> Someone stealing my dink or other boat stuff would not necessitate me shooting (at) them, just "life or death" pirate scenarios where help is unavailable. Nor would I draw a gun on someone breaking into my boat while I am sleeping in a marina in the states.
> 
> my 2c...


I understand your concerns......but I believe to view firearms as a solution is probably in most circumstances fairly idealistic and impractical. I say this as to get to these 'uninhabitated islands' one normally needs to get past customs officials who would take your gun off you anyway........

Now as for 'pirates' with high speed boats boarding with AK47's like I stated yesterday, this simply ain't going to happen outside of the Somalian coast/gulf of Aden..........where you probably don't stand much of a chance armed (I say this as their prime targets are commerical shipping vessels who now carry security personnel, so the pirates are of course now armed and prepared to deal with a professional armed force as a matter of business)

On top of all of this is also the arguable view that by you having a firearm a situation may in fact escalate beyond what it would of if you were unarmed....

Thats my 2 cents.....


----------



## Siamese

Let's drop the gun thing, ok? Can we just talk about abortion from now on? Or maybe religion? Politics? Boobs?


----------



## puddinlegs

erps said:


> Good posts again puddin. I was with you until:
> 
> many of us who are trained in situational awareness (law enforcement) came to a different conclusion


Well, you're in law enforcement. If I were, I'm confident I'd share your view seeing the things you see and deal with on a daily basis. If he has an interest and chooses a career in law enforcement, I'm sure he'll be carrying a weapon as well. I have no problem with that. You guys have a tough job. In Washington State given our recent history, you have plenty of reason to be armed at all times. Stood by and watched the processions go by last year... very very hard not to feel deeply saddened. Situational awareness means many things. Some with guns (law enforcement, military) and many without... like removing one's hat out of respect.


----------



## sailjunkie

Siamese said:


> Let's drop the gun thing, ok? Can we just talk about abortion from now on? Or maybe religion? Politics? Boobs?


Right on!

I don't think that anything said on this thread will change many minds. If you favour firearms, you'll probably continue doing so. If you are against firearms, you'll continue to be against them.

Personally, I think that a heavy discussion of either sex, politics or religion would be of more interest. If we got bored, we could always discuss sailing. What a novel concept!


----------



## jackdale

sailjunkie said:


> Personally, I think that a heavy discussion of either sex, politics or religion would be of more interest. If we got bored, we could always discuss sailing. What a novel concept!


Roland Barth wrote a book, Cruising Rules. If memory serves me correctly, one of them is "Controversial topics should only be discussed within swimming distance of shore."


----------



## sailjunkie

jackdale said:


> Roland Barth wrote a book, Cruising Rules. If memory serves me correctly, one of them is "Controversial topics should only be discussed within swimming distance of shore."


Good point!


----------



## DubeJ

Haha, well stated. This post went viral like a baby laughing on youtube. What's the next topic I ca bring up that will get people's brains in a frenzy...haha. I hope everyone here is still friends after this!


----------



## SEMIJim

chall03 said:


> The assumption that minds are set and cannot be changed is fairly cynical and not necessarily true here. Call me naive, but I believe with civility and open minds at least we might be able to understand each other's perspective....you guys have a role in either confirming or changing our 'rambo' view


Yes, it was a blanket statement and, as with all such blanket statements, there are exceptions.



chall03 said:


> Responsible intelligent gun owning American's actually gave me cause to pause and consider last time this thread came around.


Then, in my experience with discussions such as this, in venues both international and U.S.-only, you're the rare exception. This issue is one, like sex, politics and religion, where most people have made up their minds.

The vast majority of non-USAians, even including our immediate neighbours to the north and south, tend to regard our right to keep and bear arms as an anachronism, and those of us who ascribe to it as paranoid, ignorant red-necks, at best.



chall03 said:


> CD among other's went to the trouble of explaining what this 2nd amendment was all about, rather than just proclaiming it loudly in my face and he explained to me the cultural context in which people in his town generally all owned firearms, had been raised how to use and own them responsibly, and that this did make people stop and think twice before they broke into someone's house and knocked off their TV.....


Good on him. And good on your for at least considering his POV.

Btw: In most states the laws prohibit one from using lethal force for other than defending ones self or others from imminent attack likely to result in death, serious injury or sexual assault. IOW: You're not allowed to shoot someone for stealing your TV.

Jim


----------



## AE28

rikhall said:


> I have no fear at all of guns. I neither own nor carry at this time. I have shot hand guns competitively. I was a Hunter Safety instructor and examiner in two provinces here in Canada. Guns were something I used to put meat in teh freezer or were for shooting at the range.
> 
> Me, personally, I know of no one who has needed a firearm while cruising on board in Canada nor in the US of A. I do know personally those who have needed a fire extinguisher.
> 
> If someone were to steal (or try to steal) my dingy or outboard, it would never cross my mind to shoot them (or at them). Its only a thing.
> 
> So - as long as you keep them in control and don't aim them in my direction (and you are in your own country) feel free to carry or not.
> 
> Shalom
> 
> Rik


+1


----------



## dhays

St Anna said:


> Sorry mate, that has to be the biggest load of BS ever said.
> 
> That comment is all I am complaining about. You carry 'arms' if you want to, but you do not have any legal standing anywhere in the civilised world.
> 
> Firearms must be declared and in most countries, they will be held in bond until you leave.
> 
> As to this post - let us agree that we think differently. I wont say any more on it.


I think you may have missed his point. He was clear about sailing on the high seas, ie not within the territorial waters of a foreign government.

The problem comes when the cruiser decides to come within another jurisdiction. Most folks don't travel from the US to the US without stopping in a foreign port along the way.


----------



## dhays

chrisncate said:


> I plan on using any and all tools at my disposal (tacks on deck like Slocum used, trip lines, etc). ... And carry a gun once we leave and go offshore. I can't for the life of me figure out why any cruiser wouldn't take as many precautions as possible.


Once you go offshore, where would you go? Would you enter a country where possession of a firearm is illegal?


----------



## dhays

Iflyka200s said:


> but I am a pilot and I am allowed to carry a gun and am bound by Federal Law to do so (and use it). I also sit next to a fire extinguisher.


Wait a minute. I was aware of the ability of properly trained and certified commercial pilots to carry a firearm in the US while on board. However, I didn't think it was a requirement to carry even if they are certified?


----------



## puddinlegs

chrisncate said:


> I plan on using any and all tools at my disposal (tacks on deck like Slocum used, trip lines, etc). It won't consume my life or anything, but I will take precautions as a default setting. And carry a gun once we leave and go offshore. I can't for the life of me figure out why any cruiser wouldn't take as many precautions as possible.
> 
> I am also truly amazed at the reaction of many of the other nationalities posting here. If I make it to your country, I hope I feel safe enough to share your viewpoint on gun ownership. I cant even imagine what it would feel like to not feel like a gun is a good idea for protection of your home/boat. I live 15 minutes from Baltimore though, and murders and brutal crime just exist here on a daily basis (not in my neighborhood of course). Maybe that clouds my view...


There's a fine line between paranoia and dilligence... I think you're toying within the realm of the former. As a longtime resident of a couple of foreign countries, both with much stricter gun control laws, etc... than the US, and as a former resident of E. Oakland CA, I was certainly safer in the other countries than in Oakland. I've never carried a gun for my personal protection in my life including stays in 20 odd countries. Don't let irrational fear lead you. The world is not the evil place that many would have us believe.


----------



## dhays

erps said:


> many of us who are trained in situational awareness (law enforcement) came to a different conclusion


FWIW, years ago as I was trying to make the decision to get a CWP here in WA, I spoke to a number of folks in law enforcement about it. I am fortunate that I have a number of patients who have law enforcement and miliatary careers in local police forces, FBI, ATF, and even the WA State Gambling commission. They all have the right to carry a weapon, both on the job and off. The number of those that carry a weapon while off duty was only about 50%. Not a scientific sample, but these were professionals whom I respected and asked their opinion. I ultimately did get the CWP.

My point is only that from my experience, not all professionals chose to carry here in WA.


----------



## chrisncate

puddinlegs said:


> There's a fine line between paranoia and dilligence... I think you're toying within the realm of the former. As a longtime resident of a couple of foreign countries, both with much stricter gun control laws, etc... than the US, and as a former resident of E. Oakland CA, I was certainly safer in the other countries than in Oakland. I've never carried a gun for my personal protection in my life including stays in 20 odd countries. Don't let irrational fear lead you. The world is not the evil place that many would have us believe.


:laugher I am paranoid because I have a different world view than you? Come on now...

FTR, paranoid would be sleeping with a loaded gun under your pillow, or carrying a gun everywhere you go waiting for something to happen. I will do neither of those things, I will simply have a gun onboard and accessible if needed for certain areas of the world.

I do believe that most of the world is safe to cruise, however I also do believe that you never know who or what you may encounter while alone out there in spotty areas. We plan on leaving the beaten cruiser path and seeing some different and remote areas.


----------



## erps

> I've never carried a gun for my personal protection in my life including stays in 20 odd countries. Don't let irrational fear lead you. The world is not the evil place that many would have us believe.


That's reassuring. I'm sure the crime rate in my little rural county is much lower than Oakland. I've been carrying for 25 years while on the job. Can't say that I've never needed it though, although there were instances when I thought it would come to that. I got my ten hours in today, but I gotta work a few hours tonight. I'm probably good to just leave it at home then? I mean chances are pretty good that nothing bad is going to happen. I personally know other guys in my county that never had anything happen to them for years and years, then all of a sudden the fit hit the shan for them. That sucks. No one I know planned on it happening to them, yet it did.


----------



## birdpepper

Hell yeah! Sawed off shotgun- easy to hide and gets the job done!


----------



## eMKay

puddinlegs said:


> Let me preface what I'm about to say. First off, no trouble with people carrying what they want. It's the law of the land like it or not. The bigger question is this; as a kid, everyone had hunting rifles, all pump or bolt action, small clips, etc... schools closed first day of deer season. We all were required to take hunters' safety and even learned to shoot bow & arrow in public school gym class in Jr. High. Only pistols anyone had were bear hunters and others with war souvenirs. I never knew anyone power or sail who ever carried a gun on a boat unless it was being transported to a hunting cabin or the like. To this day, I don't know anyone personally who boats with a gun on board. It seems like many of the gun toters here are in Ohio, Tenn, Tx, FL, etc... and not on the west coast. Any Great Lakes sailors following the thread sail armed? Looks like one PNW'er is carrying... personally, I've never felt I've had anything to fear that I felt the need to carry including 3 years spent living in E. Oakland CA. I guess I don't understand living with the fear necessary to feel the need even though it's fine and dandy with the law, particularly when out enjoying life on the water. I'm more likely to have a problem with a whale or get hit by lightning than have a confrontation w/ a human that would require a gun


I sail the Great Lakes, and have guns. I don't carry on the boat, who is going to attack me on lake Erie? The Canadians? LOL! I do plan on circumnavigating though, will I try and carry? Probably not. There are many other things that can be used as weapons in case of attack.


----------



## BenMP

Sorry to jump in late, but I read earlier in the thread that you can use a flair gun with 12Ga. shotgun shells or with a converter to other ammunition. The BATF spent months trying to get a flare gun to work with this set up and almost every time the flare gun blew up. Also, a flare gun (even 25mm)with a flare (baring WP, or other military ordnance) is really not an effective weapon. In tests the flare failed to penetrate a cardboard target at close range often bouncing off. Think 3000f flare rolling around on the deck.

Sorry if I'm out of line just wanted to keep anyone from getting hurt.


----------



## gulfcoastcruiser

Here is a link to the official report from the ATF on the flare gun insert.

Flare Insert - Any Other Weapon

I figure in an emergency situation, the ability to fire one round might be worth the risk. Hopefully, I will never find out.


----------



## sailingdog

Be aware if you have that aboard and any ammo, you're going to be considered as carrying a firearm in most cases, and damn well better have the paperwork to back it up..



gulfcoastcruiser said:


> Here is a link to the official report from the ATF on the flare gun insert.
> 
> Flare Insert - Any Other Weapon
> 
> I figure in an emergency situation, the ability to fire one round might be worth the risk. Hopefully, I will never find out.


----------



## Boasun

gulfcoastcruiser said:


> Here is a link to the official report from the ATF on the flare gun insert.
> 
> Flare Insert - Any Other Weapon
> 
> I figure in an emergency situation, the ability to fire one round might be worth the risk. Hopefully, I will never find out.


That would cause major Owies.....

Note: I use to carry weapons all around the world in the first half of my sea going career... On Destroyers, Minesweepers and a Amphib ship. And also on Military sealift Command ships also. 
But it is a responsibility that you have to take seriously; No games, No playing, and having to be aware of your field of fire if you do have to use the weapon. Best for those who have never been trained or been too long out of the military to leave the fire power at home.
When most people say;_* I know what I'm doing. *_ Is a lie to themselves and the people around them...


----------



## QuickMick

how about a bow? or a crossbow?

Cabela's: Compound Bows

Cabela's: Crossbows

you could say you only use it for fishing?


----------



## SEMIJim

gulfcoastcruiser said:


> I figure in an emergency situation, the ability to fire one round might be worth the risk.


Absolutely not.

If you're going to arm yourself, for the love of Pete: Arm yourself and have done with it. This adapter is unreliable, possibly ineffective, at best, and quite likely presents a greater danger to its wielder than to anybody from whom one might attempt to defend one's self with it.

Furthermore: If I read BATFE's report correctly: It's *illegal* to possess, in its assembled state, in the U.S. It's an "unclassified" firearm. Possession is a *Federal felony* offense.

Jim


----------



## SEMIJim

sailingdog said:


> Be aware if you have that aboard and any ammo, you're going to be considered as carrying a firearm in most cases, and damn well better have the paperwork to back it up..


Near as I can tell from the cited article: There is no "paperwork to back it up." Possession of the assembled disaster-waiting-to-happen cannot possibly be legal, under U.S. Federal law.

If I got on a boat and found one of these, or the components, present: I'd get off that boat just as quickly as was feasible.

Jim


----------



## AE28

Boasun said:


> That would cause major Owies.....
> 
> Note: I use to carry weapons all around the world in the first half of my sea going career... On Destroyers, Minesweepers and a Amphib ship. And also on Military sealift Command ships also.
> But it is a responsibility that you have to take seriously; No games, No playing, and having to be aware of your field of fire if you do have to use the weapon. Best for those who have never been trained or been too long out of the military to leave the fire power at home.
> When most people say;_* I know what I'm doing. *_ Is a lie to themselves and the people around them...


Did you carry those weapons ashore, on foreign soil, all around the world?


----------



## jerryrlitton

Boasun said:


> That would cause major Owies.....
> 
> Note: I use to carry weapons all around the world in the first half of my sea going career... On Destroyers, Minesweepers and a Amphib ship. And also on Military sealift Command ships also.
> But it is a responsibility that you have to take seriously; No games, No playing, and having to be aware of your field of fire if you do have to use the weapon. Best for those who have never been trained or been too long out of the military to leave the fire power at home.
> When most people say;_* I know what I'm doing. *_ Is a lie to themselves and the people around them...


Exactly what Boasun said. However along with the proper training the proper mindset is needed. Not only the legal ramifications but the moral ones also. Once you are committed to defending yourself only 100% violent intent until the threat goes away (stops) should be employed. Anything less will get you or yours hurt or worse.


----------



## SEMIJim

Boasun said:


> ... and having to be aware of your field of fire if you do have to use the weapon.


It's even worse in a thin-shelled boat and on the water. Many of today's high-power, high-velocity self-defense rounds might well pass thru _several_ fiberglass hulls before coming to rest and bullets encountering water at a shallow angle can skip.

Jim


----------



## W3ODF

If you or only looking for a last ditch item then just get FOX Labs Pepper Spray. It darn isnt perfect, I have been sprayed several times as regular training and can fight through the effects for awhile (major owweee later), but it is better than nothing.


----------



## QuickMick

SEMIJim said:


> It's even worse in a thin-shelled boat and on the water. Many of today's high-power, high-velocity self-defense rounds would pass thru _several_ fiberglass hulls before coming to rest and bullets encountering water at a shallow angle can skip.
> 
> Jim


do you think that would even be true of wadcutters? or would the fiberglass impact be enough to create the expansion of the round? i prefer these:


----------



## sailingdog

Thanks for clarifying that...  If I was going to bother having a weapon aboard, it'd probably be a shotgun... Shotguns are generally seen as defensive weapons due to their relatively short range.



SEMIJim said:


> Near as I can tell from the cited article: There is no "paperwork to back it up." Possession of the assembled disaster-waiting-to-happen cannot possibly be legal, under U.S. Federal law.
> 
> If I got on a boat and found one of these, or the components, present: I'd get off that boat just as quickly as was feasible.
> 
> Jim


----------



## jerryrlitton

SEMIJim said:


> It's even worse in a thin-shelled boat and on the water. Many of today's high-power, high-velocity self-defense rounds would pass thru _several_ fiberglass hulls before coming to rest and bullets encountering water at a shallow angle can skip.
> 
> Jim


Poorly trained people have not heard or heed the basic firearms rules which are;
*1. Assume That Any Gun, at Any Time, is Loaded. *
When someone tells you a gun is not loaded, that's fine - but don't believe it until you see it for yourself. If you offend your buddy by checking a gun after he's told you it's unloaded, then so be it. Better safe than dead. Make it a habit to check no matter what. This is a very important habit to get into. Best yet always treat a weapon like it is loaded.
*2. Always Point a Gun in a Safe Direction. *
This one should be self-explanatory. It is the bedrock of all gun safety, and is the most important rule. Another way to say it, which Dad taught me many years ago, is, "Never point a gun at anything you're not willing to shoot, nor sweep it across anything you are willing to destroy.
*3. Keep Your Finger off the Trigger.*
This is something I see way too often. Some doofus will have his or her finger on the trigger of a gun they are simply carrying, looking down the sights of, etc. Don't do it! Keep that finger outside the trigger guard until you are ready to shoot, and after shooting, move it back out of the trigger guard. And please don't be offended that I used the term "doofus" if you have been guilty of this, because I have been a doofus before, too.
*4. Know What You're Shooting at.*
Your target is whatever you have decided to shoot. And - this is extremely important - it must be a conscious decision when you shoot something. Don't get lax about this. You need to know what you are going to shoot at, what is between you and it, and what is beyond it. Pay attention. YOU are responsible for EVERY bullet that leaves the weapon. Every bullet. 
*5. Be Familiar With YourWeapon.*
Take the time to learn about the operation and features of the firearm you are planning to use. The time to learn this is not while you are shooting... that is when you need to be learning about grip, shooting positions, trigger control, etc. When you step up to the firing line, you should already know how to operate the gun you'll be shooting.
*6. Don't Rely on a Safety Mechanism.*
Many guns have a safety device to prevent the gun from firing. These are often reliable, but not always. And some guns have even been known to fire when the safety is released, most notably Remington bolt-action centerfire rifles, which naturally leads to the conclusion that safety mechanisms are often useful, but not completely reliable. Use the safety, but don't count on it! Continue to follow the number one rule: Always keep the gun pointed somewhere safe
*7. Pay Attention! Remember a weapon is not dangerous. A weapon is an inanimate object totally incapable of killing or hurting you, much like a parked car. It is when people get involved is then the PEOPLE become dangerous. Take responsibility for your own actions, get trained, proficient then educate others. 
*


----------



## gulfcoastcruiser

FWIW apparently a flare gun is not a very effective weapon.

Jackass Flare Gun Stunt - Video

If stupid is funny, this is hilarious!!


----------



## SEMIJim

QuickMick said:


> do you think that would even be true of wadcutters? or would the fiberglass impact be enough to create the expansion of the round?


Far too many variables to say, with any degree of confidence. A .38 SPL or .45 ACP, standard loads... maybe not so bad. .40 S&W, .357 Magnum (especially!) and some others: Definite danger.

It would be interesting to find some representative pieces of fiberglass from scrapped boats, a cooperative gun range (most don't allow one to shoot at anything other than approved targets/materials), a half-dozen representative handguns (say a .357 Mag revolver, and 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP auto-loaders), a variety of typical loads, (defensive, ball and wadcutter) for each, and perform some unscientific tests.  :gunner

Hey, if I decided to do that, do y'all think _Sail_ or _BoatUS_ or something would publish it? :laugher

(/me starts thinking up a catchy title for the article...)

Jim


----------



## TheWhiteRabbit

QuickMick said:


> do you think that would even be true of wadcutters? or would the fiberglass impact be enough to create the expansion of the round?


just a point of clarification....wadcutters are designed NOT to expand, wadcutters and semi wadcutters are designed for target shooting: they cut a perfect full caliber circle out of target paper....










maybe you mean hollow points? these are designed to expand


----------



## W3ODF

There are several 'less-than-lethal' shotgun loads on the market that would not penetrate the hull. Some of these can be found in other calibers as well. I say 'less-than-lethal' with some mirth; they can very well screw someone up very badly and if that person goes overboard they are probably dead...

Be careful with whatever you choose.


----------



## jerryrlitton

TheWhiteRabbit said:


> just a point of clarification....wadcutters are designed NOT to expand, wadcutters and semi wadcutters are designed for target shooting: they cut a perfect full caliber circle out of target paper....
> 
> maybe you mean hollow points? these are designed to expand


Actually wadcutters are not designed to expand is true, also yes they are designed to cut perfect holes in paper to better aid in scoring. Wadutters are also not designed to not expand. That would be a function of a FMJ hunting bullet designed for penetration on dangerous (the kind that will kill you if you are stupid) game. That being said they (wadcutters) are made of soft lead and DO expand on hitting a hard surface, soft gelatinous mediums also. Just because it is a target round do not assume it will just bruise you and not go through a boat hull. No bullet is fool-proof, sometimes hollow points don't expand and FMJ's will sometimes deform. There is absolutely NO substitute for good training and LOTS of practical range time. None.


----------



## ffiill

Whats this got to do with sailing?BUT say you are attacked by Somali Pirates-several big RIB full of say 30 men ;mounted heavy caliber machine guns or even Canon;Rocket propelled grenades plus a mother ship armed with who knows what.
Start shooting and you will end up with your boat and yourself cut into little pieces!
What these guys want is money not a firefight which they are well equipped to win.
When Slocum took his Winchester to north African pirates it didnt stop them a blown out sail did.


----------



## jerryrlitton

ffiill said:


> Whats this got to do with sailing?BUT say you are attacked by Somali Pirates-several big RIB full of say 30 men ;mounted heavy caliber machine guns or even Canon;Rocket propelled grenades plus a mother ship armed with who knows what.
> Start shooting and you will end up with your boat and yourself cut into little pieces!
> What these guys want is money not a firefight which they are well equipped to win.
> When Slocum took his Winchester to north African pirates it didnt stop them a blown out sail did.


Like I said, a proper mind set and training is your best bet. If you have these and you still cannot avoid above then you still have options. With that in front of me maybe it would be better to give them what they want and hide the weapons. Who knows? Better to have more options then less. Slocum was smart enough to realize that. However I know there are some people out there who do not trust themselves with options.


----------



## jerryrlitton

Let me add that choosing to carry any weapon incurs all kinds of responsibility, ethical, moral, legal etc. And if you have one you should never feel obligated to use it just because you have it. It just gives you more options. Think about it. Train hard. the more your sweat during training you less you bleed in the field.


----------



## QuickMick

well.... i may be going to my friends lodge this weekend for a pig hunt/make sure all is ready for deer season. provided he isnt afraid that all the blasting would scare off the game, and given the fact that i have access to a sawzall and boats to cut up, what rounds would you like to see hit glass and at what range? worst case i can try the 'experiment' in a few weeks or after the rut. might as well try a shotty too.... scatter and deer loads? nothing like a good bill ney the science guy type of reason to blast stuff....


----------



## rmeador

QuickMick, I'd like to see 9mm FMJ and JHP, since that's what I shoot... I also wouldn't mind seeing .308 (out of a rifle, of course).


----------



## QuickMick

got it rmeador... if you wouldnt mind, pm me that list? any other interested parties are welcome to do the same.... dont forget the range part of the question....

scoped sks (of decent make... screw in barrel) @ 120 yds took down this guy (260#), im sure it would hole a boat... or a pirate....


----------



## gulfcoastcruiser

QuickMick,

Could you add 7.62x39 and various 12 gauge rounds to the experiment as well?


----------



## QuickMick

ok, to not steal the thread, and as it seems we are going 'off topic' im going to post a new thread under off topic entitled 'glass blastin'' where i will outline the experiment/take suggestions etc.... all are welcome to pm or send me personal emails... im gonna put it up now


----------



## Boasun

AE28 said:


> Did you carry those weapons ashore, on foreign soil, all around the world?


Yes I did! It was called Viet Nam


----------



## jerryrlitton

Boasun said:


> Yes I did! It was called Viet Nam


Hooahh and thank you for your service and welcome home.

Jerry


----------



## poopdeckpappy

I may soon

The Log.com News


----------



## OTIMO

I carry a .40 USP HK and a AR-15. 



Cheap Insurance...........


----------



## chrisncate

poopdeckpappy said:


> I may soon
> 
> The Log.com News


From the article:

*"They also were thinking of raping my El Salvadoran girlfriend, until she told the leader she had four sons who depend on her," Stevens said. "I am a former Marine and could have taken two or three out, but I was worried about my buddy and girlfriend."*

To the ones here adamantly against guns while cruising, can you imagine being duct taped and watching your wife/girlfriend being raped in front of you on your own boat?

Carrying while cruising is legitimate (the argument to do so I mean), like it or not.


----------



## poopdeckpappy

I don't know these people, but I remember this boat from our time at Dana Point


----------



## steel

> To the ones here adamantly against guns while cruising, can you imagine being duct taped and watching your wife/girlfriend being raped in front of you on your own boat?


I think most people simply can't imagine it until it happens.

Sadly, the people who don't want to mess with weapons out of fear will probably choose to not go sailing instead of changing their minds about it.


----------



## my900ss

chrisncate said:


> From the article:
> 
> *"They also were thinking of raping my El Salvadoran girlfriend, until she told the leader she had four sons who depend on her," Stevens said. "I am a former Marine and could have taken two or three out, but I was worried about my buddy and girlfriend."*
> 
> To the ones here adamantly against guns while cruising, can you imagine being duct taped and watching your wife/girlfriend being raped in front of you on your own boat?
> 
> Carrying while cruising is legitimate (the argument to do so I mean), like it or not.


To answer the OP yes...

In regards to this post ^^^^ Who do you know that sits around watching movies with a shotgun on their lap? My guess is it would of been no use in this case, besides A gun on your boat IMO is only useful to keep people off the boat. A gun fight inside your boat with 6 armed assailants will not turn out well for you and your guests. My 2 cents.


----------



## puddinlegs

chrisncate said:


> From the article:
> 
> *"They also were thinking of raping my El Salvadoran girlfriend, until she told the leader she had four sons who depend on her," Stevens said. "I am a former Marine and could have taken two or three out, but I was worried about my buddy and girlfriend."*
> 
> To the ones here adamantly against guns while cruising, can you imagine being duct taped and watching your wife/girlfriend being raped in front of you on your own boat?
> 
> Carrying while cruising is legitimate (the argument to do so I mean), like it or not.


Again, the odds of hitting a whale or a half submerged container are much much much much... did I say much? higher than anything you're talking about... I just don't get it. I'm not willing to live my life on the very very off chance of encountering the exception. I've met too many great people in interesting places without ever having had to think about killing them or thinking that they were going to kill me. I think you 'find' what you 'prepare' for.


----------



## chrisncate

my900ss said:


> To answer the OP yes...
> 
> In regards to this post ^^^^ Who do you know that sits around watching movies with a shotgun on their lap? My guess is it would of been no use in this case, besides A gun on your boat IMO is only useful to keep people off the boat. A gun fight inside your boat with 6 armed assailants will not turn out well for you and your guests. My 2 cents.


So don't even try, right? Just hope for civilized criminals?

Look, my handgun (357 stainless revolver, nice and simple, works every time) will be accessible on my boat, especially when we are anchored "out there". Would I prevail in a situation like the one noted here? Maybe, maybe not.

But I _CAN_ tell you for sure what my chances would be WITHOUT a gun in that situation.

0.

Board my boat, and poke your head into my companionway while we are way out there somewhere, and I draw down on you. You can't fit 6 criminals through an Alberg 30 companionway at once, you can only fit one at a time. If I kill the first one trying to climb in, maybe his pals will leave in a hurry, maybe not.

At least I would have tried. I am of the tribe who would rather die trying than hope for mercy.


----------



## chrisncate

puddinlegs said:


> Again, the odds of hitting a whale or a half submerged container are much much much much... did I say much? higher than anything you're talking about... I just don't get it. I'm not willing to live my life on the very very off chance of encountering the exception. I've met too many great people in interesting places without ever having had to think about killing them or thinking that they were going to kill me. I think you 'find' what you 'prepare' for.


It isn't the great people you meet that you would have to kill, it's the POS criminal(s) who want to do you harm far from your home port.

And I have no problem with that (your view), it's your decision. The problem as I see it, is just the _one_ time...

It only takes once to die needlessly. You do consider that, right? The chance that you can live or die based on your decision to protect your vessel and crew? Death is so _permanent_.. I want to live, and will do everything I can to do so.

I have guns now, and live on land. Do I think about my guns everyday? No way. Do I live in fear everyday? No way. I have tools to defend my home and wife, and I don't really think about it. I am not a gun nut, I am (like many) just prudent.


----------



## SEMIJim

poopdeckpappy said:


> I may soon
> 
> The Log.com News


From the cited article:


> It appears they live on an island that the police are afraid to enter.


In other words: The area is out-of-control, much like the Somalian coast, and should possibly be treated with the same precautions. (I.e.: Avoid.) We have a couple neighbourhoods like that, here in the U.S. People don't vacation in them.

Jim


----------



## SEMIJim

steel said:


> I think most people simply can't imagine it until it happens.


I think it's more likely preferring to think the odds are in their favour that it won't happen to them and, if it does, they'll be okay as long as they cooperate. (That latter being the message law enforcement has been dispensing for decades, which they're finding out doesn't apply anymore.)



steel said:


> Sadly, the people who don't want to mess with weapons out of fear will probably choose to not go sailing instead of changing their minds about it.


In the scenario cited: Unless you're prepared, you've six armed men with a lot less to lose than you that have the drop on you. Even if you were prepared: The odds would not be in your favour. Better to identify areas the local government is unable to keep reasonably secure and avoid them altogether.

I think some of you have been watching and taking far too seriously too many Hollywood action/adventure movies. Seriously. I'm as pro-RKBA and pro-self-defense as anybody you're ever likely to meet, but I'm realistic about what I can reasonably expect to do. In the scenario cited: Your guns would simply end-up enhancing the criminals' armory .

Jim


----------



## puddinlegs

chrisncate said:


> You do consider that, right? The chance that you can live or die based on your decision to protect your vessel and crew? Death is so _permanent_.. I want to live, and will do everything I can to do so.


Like I said, contact with large sea mammals or unidentified floating objects are a much greater danger. I have no plans to sail anywhere near well known pirate infested waters. Avoiding the problem to begin with is the best prevention. Though I'm sure there are plenty of bad folks taking things back and forth across the local border area, I can't recall any stories about someone on a boat having any life threatening incidents regarding other humans, and handguns are largely illegal in Canada. Don't know anyone who's circumnavigating at the moment who are armed or are considering being so.

So do I consider death? I'm not at all cavalier about my personal safety, but clearly my risk threshold is higher than yours. So be it. Odds are excellent that we'll both die of cancer (nearly managed that) or simple old age before being killed by pirates or the like.


----------



## AE28

Boasun said:


> Yes I did! It was called Viet Nam


That's it for "all around the world"?


----------



## chrisncate

puddinlegs said:


> Like I said, contact with large sea mammals or unidentified floating objects are a much greater danger. I have no plans to sail anywhere near well known pirate infested waters. Avoiding the problem to begin with is the best prevention. Though I'm sure there are plenty of bad folks taking things back and forth across the local border area, I can't recall any stories about someone on a boat having any life threatening incidents regarding other humans, and handguns are largely illegal in Canada. Don't know anyone who's circumnavigating at the moment who are armed or are considering being so.
> 
> So do I consider death? I'm not at all cavalier about my personal safety, but clearly my risk threshold is higher than yours. So be it. Odds are excellent that we'll both die of cancer (nearly managed that) or simple old age before being killed by pirates or the like.


Well, honestly I don't see the comparison to other dangers (large animals, hitting a shipping container, whatever). Sure, you are more likely to encounter those things, but they really have nothing to do with wether or not you believe in carrying while cruising. The odds of other dangers (to me) have no bearing on my decision to carry, because those other things aren't the particular danger we are speaking of here.

Anyway, I find it disappointing how some (not you specifically puddin, I am speaking in general now) posters just _have_ throw in stereo typical comments about the people who do carry or support carrying in general. I hate having some Rambo stereo type attached to this topic, like I am just some silly idiot sitting around in fatigues cleaning a pile of guns while watching to many "action" flicks that I want to some how emulate. It's so far off base, and if the posters who write that kind of stuff actually knew me in real life, you would never in a million years think that.

Why? For one, I don't ever want to shoot anyone. It would probably ruin me in a lot of ways. I don't think about it, and I don't seek a scenario where I get to actually use a gun. Two, because like any and all of my tools, my guns are stowed correctly and they aren't on my mind any more than a pipe wrench or a screwdriver from my toolbox. To me, they are a safety device no different than a seat-belt. Hope I never need to test it, but if I do I hope it works correctly.

Yes, there are a lot of gun nuts in America, but out of all the folks in this country who own guns, I would wager the "nut" portion is the same as any other group (very small in proportion). I, for one, am not one of the nuts (not for guns anyway).

Whew...:laugher


----------



## u4ea

In the late 70's I was at Acapulco Yacht Club. A family was there on their 35 or 40 foot sailboat. They were nearing the end of a multi-year circumnavigation out of San Diego, they went westward through the Pacific, SE Asia, and onward. They had passed through SE Asia in the mid to early 70's so recently after the US forces had simply left, leaving behind billions of dollars of weapons. Obviously, lots of these weapons had been picked up by the bad guys.

As the family entered that area, perhaps in the Philippines or thereabouts, they bought a 50 caliber machine gun on a steel rotating mount. They put it right in the middle of the foredeck. They needed to add some deck beams to hold the weight of the thing.

They felt that having the huge gun in plain sight kept them out of trouble. Lots of other boats without an obvious show of firepower.

As they left the area that at that time seemed dangerous, they sold the gun. The deck, and the under deck beams, still bore witness of the gun they never had to fire.

I hear about commercial vessels and yachts being captured by pirates, but I don't hear about war vessels being captured. Might happen, but I truly doubt it.


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## Death3

Yes i carry on board for mainly 2 reasons. one well i just do and two ive been reading in the news lately that Somalian attacks "i dont classify them as pirates they dont deserve it" IMHO but they have been spotted in Mexico waters as well as southern pacific. Now with that in mind they will keep coming closer and closer so you cant just say if your sailing in Africa waters thats where you will run into them.


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## poopdeckpappy

SEMIJim said:


> From the cited article:
> 
> In other words: The area is out-of-control, much like the Somalian coast, and should possibly be treated with the same precautions. (I.e.: Avoid.) We have a couple neighbourhoods like that, here in the U.S. People don't vacation in them.
> 
> Jim


We read this differently, I read it as they were anchored or moored in a cruising area, the banditos came from a no go zone

Either way, unless you know up front, well, ya just don't know, Coata Rica has not been on any watch list that I've heard and read, Hell, I hear more about Baja then I do Coata Rica


----------



## copacabana

I'm more concerned with Death3's Mexican Somalis ...


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## SEMIJim

poopdeckpappy said:


> We read this differently, I read it as they were anchored or moored in a cruising area, the banditos came from a no go zone


Yes, knowing that if they could get back to that (relatively nearby, I presume) no-go zone before the authorities arrived, they'd be home free.

Failing to see the disincentive for the bad guys. Thus my assessment that the entire area is unfavourable.

Jim


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## erps

In the article that Pappy posted, those cruisers now take steps to give themselves time to signal for help from others. What are the ethics involved in summoning supposedly unarmed folks nearby to help out with armed bad guys?


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## SEMIJim

erps said:


> What are the ethics involved in summoning supposedly unarmed folks nearby to help out with armed bad guys?


Maybe the other, nearby cruisers have enough sense to be armed? 

(Just keepin' it goin', folks, just keepin' it goin' )

Jim


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## jackdale

erps said:


> In the article that Pappy posted, those cruisers now take steps to give themselves time to signal for help from others. What are the ethics involved in summoning supposedly unarmed folks nearby to help out with armed bad guys?


Ray

You sail in Canada quite often; you may want to know.

Actually it is not a moral imperative it is a legal one:



> the United Nations Convention on Law of the Sea ("UNCLOS") says that every signatory to the convention must require the master of a ship flying its flag to render assistance to any person found at sea in danger of being lost and to proceed to the rescue of persons in distress.
> 
> Simultaneously, the Safety of Life at Sea Convention ("SOLAS") sets out the obligation on ships' masters to render assistance.





> "Every qualified person who is the master of a vessel in any waters, on receiving a signal from any source that a person, a vessel or an aircraft is in distress, shall proceed with all speed to render assistance and shall, if possible, inform the persons in distress or the sender of the signal.
> 
> "The master of a vessel in Canadian waters and every qualified person who is the master of a vessel in any waters shall render assistance to every person who is found at sea and in danger of being lost."





> Formerly $500, the maximum fine is now $1,000,000.


The Obligation to Render Assistance at Sea

Others may wish to check their nation's equivalents.


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## rikhall

I am a Canadian, I don't have guns on board, but I promise, if I see you sailing where I sail in Canada, and I see you being attached by Somali pirates, I will come to help you.

And if I get there and it wasn't really an attack, we can have a beer or something, eh!










Rik


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## erps

> render assistance to any person found at sea in danger of being lost and to proceed to the rescue of persons in distress.


unless the skipper determines that it is unreasonable to respond



> or considers in unreasonable or unnecessary to respond, he shall enter the reason in his official log book;


So we're back to whether it's ethical (reasonable) to summon supposedly unarmed help to an armed confrontation.


----------



## jackdale

erps said:


> unless the skipper determines that it is unreasonable to proceed


My understanding is "unless it endangers the crew or the vessel." I will try to hunt that down. (t is in our manuals, but I would like the legal reference.


----------



## St Anna

Hey guys,

I firstly want to apologise to ERPS - I was very abrupt and rude earlier on. Sorry mate.

Secondly, the current talk about assisting others' needing help is interesting. A different topic, but the Sydney-Hobart race 98 (I think) - a couple of boats kept plugging on instead of stopping to help and people died. The skippers were asked to explain!


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## Boasun

Well the Canadians have a lot of empty beer cans they can toss at those Dastardly pirates. And if the those empty beer cans are filled with the aftermath of drinking beer, those pirates will woe the day.


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## erps

> My understanding is "unless it endangers the crew or the vessel." I will try to hunt that down.


that sounds reasonable. It may not be in statute, but a result of case law.



> A different topic, but the Sydney-Hobart race 98 (I think) - a couple of boats kept plugging on instead of stopping to help and people died. The skippers were asked to explain!


I imagine it's settled on a case by case basis on whether non responding skippers failed in their obligations to others in need of help.


----------



## sailjunkie

Boasun said:


> Well the Canadians have a lot of empty beer cans they can toss at those Dastardly pirates. And if the those empty beer cans are filled with the aftermath of drinking beer, those pirates will woe the day.


B-urrp! Hiccup! You may have a point there.


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## killarney_sailor

For the sake of full disclosure, we will not be armed when we head towards Panama in 10 days or so. Just too much of hassle to do it legally and too much of a risk to do it illegally. I have no desire to find out what the jails of _____________ (name of country) _________ are like. 

The question we must answer (but not for close to two years) is a fundamental one for circumnavigators today, which way around Africa? Used to be something like 90% went through the Red Sea to Suez. Now many go around South Africa. Both routes have good and bad points. Northern route has the pirates along withheadwinds in the Red Sea, but lots of people still go that way - in convoys and with a watch from the NATO naval forces in the area. This route goes to interesting places and is much shorter. Going south around Africa you face the potentially nasty sailing conditions along the coast of South Africa. SA is a fascinating country to visit and I would like to visit Lesotho where I volunteered a few years ago, but if there is one place where I would like to be armed it is SA. The bad guys are armed and most of the good guys which leaves only the tourists who are unarmed. This route allows you to visit a different set of interesting spots (islands in the southern Indian Ocean, Brazil, for example) but is further. Right now we are leaning towards the Cape route but things might change.


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## smurphny

No. Organized criminals will have way more firepower than you, turning theft into a gunfight that you likely will lose. Unless you want to mount a .50 cal machine gun on your bow, forget it. The best way to combat piracy in these areas is to not go there. Tourism is the lifeblood of many cruising areas and the LAST thing local governments want is to lose those American dollars. I would think partnering up through suspect areas and in anchorages would be a good idea. Right now, avoid anywhere near Venezuela,Trinidad and the Red Sea. Noonsite offers some good discussion on this issue. If the word spreads and sailors stay away, these governments will act to catch the culprits. In the case of Somalia/Red Sea, I would choose to round the Cape of Good Hope and the southern ocean before I would venture anywhere near those waters.


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## oceanroadmike

I used to carry guns while cruising from west coast Latin America to New Zealand, and thru many Pacific Islands. When asked, I declared them, and when not asked they stayed out of sight. Aside from hunting for the stewpot it was more trouble than it was worth. If you were well enough armed to protect yourself against modern pirates, you would qualify as a pirate yourself. On my next voyage I think I'll carry a bow for hunting, and use common sense to avoid trouble.


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## Minnewaska

oceanroadmike said:


> ......If you were well enough armed to protect yourself against modern pirates, you would qualify as a pirate yourself......


I get your point, but a pirate is defined by their actions, not their weaponry.


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## BentSailor

Thread resurrection for the win :laugher


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## BlueH20

Thread re-resurrection! So most boards will tell you to lookup past posts on the subject as they do not want to get back into the back and forth who is right and who is wrong baloney that plagues this subject, Why is it so hard for certain people to refrain from running out they're political agenda, and simply let the question be answered?


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## vega1860

If I had a gun, I would use it to kill this thread. Unfortunately, this topic is like a zombie that keeps coming back to life.


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## mikieg

if you live in a place that trusts you enough to give you the right to, go for it. there are enough incidents periodically to make me think "if i could bring those victims back, i wonder if they would change their views as to what items are necessary or useful?". 
things happen. if you are comfortable playing the odds, do it. if you are comfortable in expecting someone else to come your your aid, do it. if you have the right to make a choice between being a victim or being a survivor, take advantage of that.
there are many here that feel that because they don't or because they are not allowed to, you should follow suit. there will be many hateful opinions expressed in this thread. 
just notice the poster's locations and give validity accordingly. 
if it's legal and you so choose to, keep it to yourself. nothing works on bad guys quite like the element of surprise!


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## jackdale

Blue the question has been answered.

Summary
- if legal in your country, carry them IN YOUR COUNTRY
- if not legal in the countries you intend to visit, LEAVE THEM AT HOME.


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## mikieg

hmmm. blue joined just to post THIS thread? THIS was his first post? he makes a valid point. but this smacks of a person (already on the board) wanting to stir the pot without their real identity being known. there are a few names that come to mind.


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## jackdale

mikieg said:


> wanting to stir the pot


This thread boiled dry some time ago.


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## erps

Summary
- if legal in your country, carry them IN YOUR COUNTRY and in internation waters
- if not legal in the countries you intend to visit, declare them upon entry or LEAVE THEM AT HOME.


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## BentSailor

The last point of Ray's (erps), is where all the "opinionated" stuff comes from. Because there is an either/or situation - whether you choose one or the other becomes a matter of opinion. Is it worth the hassle, will you get your gun back, and (in at least one case I read) is it worth _disobeying the law_ about declaring the weapon.

As soon as you need to make a value judgement like that, one's _values_ are going to come into the equation. It's kind of unreasonable to expect that people won't express their opinion on a choice that requires one.


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## mikieg

hey bent, what condition was it a good thing to be disobedient to the law? sir, please dont think i am trying to be argumentative or disrespectful of your post. i am just ignorant of the situation you are citing in your point.


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## BentSailor

I personally cannot think of a condition in which I think it is a good thing to be disobedient of the law (that opinion/values thing again  ). Others, however, have brought up the idea in this discussion (and related ones on SailNet if you've been around long enough to read them all). I think someone actually mentioned they did not declare guns aboard their vessel unless explicitly asked when in jurisdiction with gun control (which is still illegal).

The idea of non-declaration of guns aboard one's boat was mentioned at least twice in this thread (possibly more, but I'm not going to re-read the entire damned thing).
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gener...rry-firearms-while-cruising-6.html#post655839
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gener...rry-firearms-while-cruising-7.html#post655877


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## GeorgeB

I didn’t realize that there was a that big of a pirate problem on the lakes and reservoirs of Oklahoma.  It is your choice if you wish to carry or not. Carry if you want, just don’t look for validation here. We as Americans do have a reputation in the world as gun toters. This past December we cleared customs in a small port in Grenada and that customs officer grilled us both individually and as a group about guns on board the boat. He was pretty incredulous faced with the fact that we weren’t carrying.


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## mikieg

do not be confused that bad things happening is based upon geographic location. bad things happening are a result of human nature, and that knows no boundaries, i assure you.
this is more so true when alcohol is present. but i guess boaters would never consume alcohol, now would they? 
even back packers will tell you. stuff happens. they will tell you, it's not the wild animals they have to protect themselves from, it's the two legged civilized ones that are dangerous. especially when they are all alone with their victims, with no witnesses or possibility of anyone coming to their aid. this situation never exists in sailing, right?
so as you may have realized, bad things happen wherever there are people. 
my policy is simple... it's fine for you to drink all you want. but if you get stupid, i will plug your drunk a$$. simple as that.


----------



## chrisncate

Any thoughts on swords aboard?


----------



## travlin-easy

chrisncate said:


> Any thoughts on swords aboard?


Yep, the sword is attached to the end of the gun. 

Cheers,

Gary


----------



## chrisncate

travlineasy said:


> Yep, the sword is attached to the end of the gun.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Gary


:laugher you're gonna start trouble.. careful..


----------



## BentSailor

Given the size of knives I've seen aboard for purely legitimate reasons, I think a sword is unnecessary. I doubt you'd be able to wield it any more effectively than a decent-size kitchen or boat knife, you won't get awkward questions about it, and they're legal in pretty much every jurisdiction I've ever bothered checking.

With that in mind, I admit to owning a wakizashi that I keep in our bedroom. Decorative and easy enough to use should I need to reach for a weapon in the middle of the night. Not likely to be stolen and/or used to kill people at range either. *shrug*


----------



## mikieg

hey bent, there is something to be said for a quality knife. a person properly trained in the deployment of that tool will be deadly. you have heard, "never bring a knife to a gun fight"? that is not compleetly true. a knife will usually beat a gun out of the holster at distances under 21 feet. here surprise is key. 
still no contest for multiple threats, or bad guys intending on killing you proir to boarding.


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## BentSailor

No need to tell me about the effectiveness a blade can have in the right hands. At the very least, it was an Aussie that is famous for the _"That's not a knife... *THIS* is a knife"_ line 

However if we keep comparing knives & guns with their relative merits aboard a boat, we're again moving into that injection of opinion into the thread that some people dislike


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## mikieg

i cant believe that we have made it this far without the bashing and general useless aggression injected by certain folks.


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## St Anna

erps said:


> Summary
> - if legal in your country, carry them IN YOUR COUNTRY and in internation waters
> - if not legal in the countries you intend to visit, declare them upon entry or LEAVE THEM AT HOME.


Ray, [Erps] has completely summed up the way it is, succinctly and correctly.

regards


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## Minnewaska

mikieg said:


> i cant believe that we have made it this far without the bashing and general useless aggression injected by certain folks.


Agreed, and Bent hands it to them on a silver platter by announcing that he keeps a knife used by the Samurai to commit ritual suicide. When the bullets start flying, killing yourself first doesn't count as defense. :laugher

Sorry, Bent, couldn't help myself.....


----------



## BentSailor

Minnewaska said:


> Agreed, and Bent hands it to them on a silver platter by announcing that he keeps a knife used by the Samurai to commit ritual suicide. When the bullets start flying, killing yourself first doesn't count as defense. :laugher
> 
> Sorry, Bent, couldn't help myself.....


For something quick to grab hold of and use at a pinch, they're a hell of alot more handy than a katana - no matter how cool the movies portray them. Not to mention that ritual suicide was but the _last _job they were put to 

That said, I can definitely see where you're coming from and would do it in your place given the chance. Of course, we could always compare the amount of suicides committed with a wakizashi (or other sword for that matter) to that of firearms and really get the party started


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## CapnBilll

Not the gun thread again.

Actually it is sad we even have to have this discussion. I believe most of us would not even consider what we would have to do to defend ourselves, even the most rabid "gun nut", would not feel the need for carrying a weapon if it wasn't for the fact that.


 In many areas of the world tourists are regarded as "easy pickings".


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## mikieg

ok bill. thank you for your contribution.
bent, indeed the katana was the most advenced weapon of its time. the metallurgy is still awesome by today's standards. 
the katana however, does require a great deal of training to use it to it's full potential.
even though i am an anglo saxon male who has been a warrior for my country since i was 17 in the fi


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## mikieg

ok bill. thank you for your contribution.
bent, indeed the katana was the most advenced weapon of its time. the metallurgy is still awesome by today's standards. 
the katana however, does require a great deal of training to use it to it's full potential.
even though i am an anglo saxon male who has been a warrior for my country since i was 17 in the finest army the world has ever seen, it is of my humble opinion, that the samurai was the baddest warrior the human race has ever put forth. a very close second was the native american tribes.
the white man will dominate based on his intelligence of weapons and tactics, but there is something to be said about the heart of a true warrior. they are bred for the job, created over a lifetime, not an 8 week BASIC training.
we live in a world of hunters and gatherers. today there are far more gatherers than there are hunters. it never ceases to amaze me, how they will band together to rise up and bash the hunters, that is.. till they need them again.


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## chrisncate

A sword can multi task, no? Protection, fish filleting in a pinch, a handy spare chainplate if need be (you do carry a hand drill, right?)...

Swords ftw..


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## BlueH20

I didnt log on here to "kick" the hornets nest, I just wanted to know what others do, I really dont wish to start a "Why/Whynot" thread, I can see where it gets complicated, I would like to set a course from Hawaii south to Palmyra (Mac and Muff Graham's final port) Then South on thru to Christmas Is, (Au) Im pretty sure they dont allow firearms.

Im a friendly generous sort, And I wouldn't like to end up like the Graham's or have my head sawed off by some lunatic pursuing a bunch of virgins 

Im just interested in what other cruisers do Im not trying to incriminate anyone. And I dont need to hear a schlemiel on the whether it's right or wrong


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## xymotic

Well, in all honesty the only thing stopping me is that I haven't figured out a hidey hole that I'd be confident that a dog wouldn't find too easily... AND yet still be accessible enough to be useful.


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## chamonix

Firearms are a real bad idea. Long guns in the confines of a sailoboat are to awkward to use effectivly (even sawed off). Pistols are better but its an innacurate weapon. Even a small caliber firearm can still easily punch a hole through your your hull. Your standard 9mm will go from bow to stern through bulkheads without a problem. You gat in a gun fight and even if everyone on board manages to survive you might not survive your boat sinking. 
Sword have the same problem as long guns, no room to use them. Knives are better in confined space but chancy. there's a good chance of cutting or stabbing yourself, even with someone who knows what there doing, its not going to be like a holy wood movie.
The bottom line is that purpose designed weapons are illegal just about anywhere you go.
My advise is to get a large Maglite. Good in cofined area's, Non-lethal. I have one on board for people I don't like. Best advice is to run away as fast as you can from trouble.


----------



## killarney_sailor

In a couple of years of fulltime crusing and more than 20,000 miles I have yet to hear of anyone 'packing' or having a need to pack. The only comments you hear from cruising folks are variations on, "why would you need guns" and a few, "too much trouble".

Contrary to what some people seem to think (and I say think, rather than know), most of the world is a pretty safe place and if you display even a reasonable amount of common sense you will be just fine. 

Probably the worst place we have been is Colon in Panama which some describe as the most dangerous place in the Americas (I am sure there are worse places if you look). We did our business there arranging for a Canal transit and Port Captain stuff (3 visits as I remember) and doing some shopping and coming back from Panama City to line handle on a friend's boat. We went only during daytime, used a cab to get around ($1 a trip) and stayed out of areas we were told to stay out of - the other places: Cristobal where the Canal offices are, the downtown shopping area, the bus terminal were fine. A couple of young guys from another boat went clubbing and got mugged - not a surprise since the locals we talked to said that was crazy. We found that the local people really wanted to help you stay safe and would make sure you got a cab that sort of thing. BTW, the shanty town in Colon is worse than any I have seen in southern Africa or Middle East. We also went backpacking in Ecuador and Peru, mainly away from standard tourist areas and it was just fine.


----------



## chamonix

Other option is bear spray or pepper spray. In confined spaces your going to get some of it as well. You could end up being as icapacitated as the person your using it on.


----------



## chamonix

I'm with killarney, the vast majority of the world has no intrest in doing you harm. Trust to a good attitude and common sense rather than weapons.


----------



## mikieg

it would be an eye opener here if we could bring the grahams into this debate now wouldnt it? 
cham, you have cited many things that MIGHT happen in a moment of distress. remember these things MIGHT happen. what i know WILL happen in those times if you are not properly prepared is, you WILL end up as the grahams did. 
so in light of all the things that MIGHT happen, you are saying to do nothing. works for you sir!
i have heard some real effective means, maglights, bear spray, flare guns, knives and swords. all will end up in epic failures. if you cannot repel a boarding from any respectable distance, you WILL be boarded. at that point you have already lost.
so lets not even attempt to save ourselves or our vessel because "a bullet hole MIGHT sink my boat"! the least of the graham's worries were NOT what was going to happen to their boat.
admittedly, if you are not able to discourage a boarding from a distance, you are likely already lost. here is my policy...
if bad guys are planning on taking my boat and killing me, fine. it will be far from easy for them. during the course of the fight, i will likely be hit, fine. but i assure you as i lie bleeding out in my boat, i assure you neither vessel will float long enough to get the bad guys home. now we are ALL screwed. i have accepted this.


----------



## BlueH20

I could only foresee a need on passage in a "Hot" zone or at a uninhabited anchorage, I don't think I will be teetering on a empty rum keg shooting the mast lights off my neighbors yacht for fun, Sorry to those who can only see that eventuality, =P


----------



## mikieg

there is a movie that tragically was a true story. it is called alpha dog. everyone should watch it. the victim possessed the ability to defend himself. he chose the "if i don't resist, they wont hurt me" approach. 
seriously, watch it. heart breaking.


----------



## mikieg

i am very thankful that some people know themselves well enough that they know they should not possess such equipment. they know their mental stability and maturity might not be up to snuff, so they spare the rest of us and choose not to take on the responsibility of such sobering decisions. i do not fault any responsible decision based on their comfort level.


----------



## chamonix

Mikieg, who said anything about not defending themselves ? When your backs to the wall you do what you have to do. Its about whats practicle when cruising not some death or glory suicidal fantasy. Day in day out weapons on board are going to cause you more grief than the chance that the worst comes to the worst. Your attitude and common sense should keep you from getting boarded and if the worst does come to the worst? Well its a sailboat, you should have no problem finding something you can use.


----------



## drbuzz

OK, my first post on the forum. I came to this forum after searching for information on this topic. This is a big subject and I can see that it elicits some passionate responses. I won't dive into the why/why not at this point. I would be interested in hearing from someone who cruises internationally and who have guns aboard, or who have done so in the past and what their experiences were. Yes, I have read the previous posts in this thread.


----------



## vega1860

The main problem with carrying firearms (Other than people who do not know how to use them bringing guns along for a false sense of security) is the way government officials freak out when they see them.

Probably a better choice for defense is something called a Hawaiian Sling. Shown here in take-down form, it is basically a pole with a triple spear head on one end and a loop of surgical tubing on the other.










Also handy for catching lunch. Perfectly innocuous on a boat - just part of the normal gear anyone would expect to see.


----------



## jackdale

From Noonsite. Description of a boarding, assault and theft.

http://www.noonsite.com/Members/sue/R2011-07-12-2



> THE GUN OPTION
> 
> We have no moral objection to this option. It is fraught with practical considerations however. If you declare your weapon, it will generally be confiscated upon entry and returned (maybe) upon your departure. So it's useless to you. Failing to declare it is a serious offense (like a felony) with various but severe consequences. Even if you shoot someone legitimately, you have already committed a serious crime by not declaring. Also, whomever you have shot has lots of relatives, maybe in the government.
> 
> GOVERNMENTS DO NOT WANT FOREIGNERS TO BRING WEAPONS INTO THEIR COUNTRY, AS A CERTAIN NUMBER OF THOSE WEAPONS WILL END UP IN THE HANDS OF LOCAL CRIMINALS.
> 
> When all is said and done, at the end of an altercation, we would rather be alive.
> 
> This is an endlessly discussed topic and we'll leave it here.


----------



## jackdale

vega1860 said:


> The main problem with carrying firearms (Other than people who do not know how to use them bringing guns along for a false sense of security) is the way government officials freak out when they see them.
> 
> Probably a better choice for defense is something called a Hawaiian Sling. Shown here in take-down form, it is basically a pole with a triple spear head on one end and a loop of surgical tubing on the other.
> 
> Also handy for catching lunch. Perfectly innocuous on a boat - just part of the normal gear anyone would expect to see.


Do you honestly believe you would have time to deploy it?


----------



## vega1860

jackdale said:


> Do you honestly believe you would have time to deploy it?


Certainly quicker than a properly secured firearm; even a shotgun in a readily accessible rack (Something I have never seen on any cruising boat). Unless you are sitting with a shotgun in your lap cocked and locked or a pistol on your hip, the spear would be faster. Really, are you going to have a gun on you all the time on your boat?

BTW, I am a NRA Life Member. Not arguing against guns at all.

edit: Oh yeah, the take down spear in the picture is just for illustration. The one piece unit would be the way to go. No, there would be not time to assemble the one in the photo.


----------



## BentSailor

chrisncate said:


> A sword can multi task, no? Protection, fish filleting in a pinch, a handy spare chainplate if need be (you do carry a hand drill, right?)...
> 
> Swords ftw..


Yeah, but knives are still far more practical. I've always had a thing for Japanese swords and all but, even as uncool as it appears, the best I've found for confined spaces and use is still not much more than a foot long. Drawing a sword longer than that below deck would be problematic in most boats I've been in.


----------



## Brent Swain

In Spitzbergen, it's illegal to go ashore without a rifle. Polar bears are just that dangerous.
Grizzlies and Kodiak bears can be just as dangerous. A friend had her 11 year old son killed by a cougar , while playing in his own back yard. That is becoming far more common in the wake of ever toughening gun control. Those who live in areas where there are no large predators, have no right to point a sanctimonius finger at those who do, nor make the rules for them..
Fortunately, Canada's long gun registry is heading for the scrap heap at the end of this month, after squandering 2 billion dollars, and proving to be totally useless.


----------



## Lake Superior Sailor

Extremely bright light , like that of a camera flash: The kind that leaves you with biue dots to look at, may give you an edge. Bear spray is supposed to stop a charging animal,(and the canister looks & works like a fire extinguisher). Best weapons don't look like weapons.(winch handle. boat hook,ect.). I would not give in easy ! But I do not think a gun is the answer, or worth the hassel.--Dale


----------



## carl762

Ya, would be a bummer to shoot a hole in the boat and sink.


----------



## xymotic

How big a hole would you have to make to 'sink' in under a few hours?

oh, and I have a steel boat made of 1/4" plate. I think I'd rather get into a shoot out with a panga than a knife fight on board, but that's just me.


----------



## JonEisberg

drbuzz said:


> OK, my first post on the forum. I came to this forum after searching for information on this topic. This is a big subject and I can see that it elicits some passionate responses. I won't dive into the why/why not at this point. I would be interested in hearing from someone who cruises internationally and who have guns aboard, or who have done so in the past and what their experiences were. Yes, I have read the previous posts in this thread.


Highly unlikely you will get an honest response to such a question, if I were cruising the world armed, I'd certainly keep my trap shut about it...

The overwhelming percentage of world cruisers I've encountered - especially non-Americans - do not appear to be "carrying"... And, IMHO, most Americans obsessed with this issue are unlikely to be going much of anywhere beyond the Bahamas...

No subject elicits so much bluster from cyber-sailors who will never cross an ocean, or clear into another country... Really, it's SO much easier to simply cruise to places where the bad guys ain't... (grin)


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## Dfok

Pleased to say I have sailed NYC, Staten Island, the Jersey Shore, Barneget Bay, Delaware Bay up to Philadelphia ( made it past Camden, no cannon or 50 cal fired/ either side). Chesapeake from North East and Charlestown to Annapolis, on the Eastern Shore up from Rock Hall to Turkey Point - no pirates or British.
Natives seem pacified, enemies have retreated. No shots fired. All is well.
Can't speak of pirates in Oklahoma but we are okay here. Leave your firearms home.


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## StormBay

vega1860 said:


> Probably a better choice for defense is something called a Hawaiian Sling. Shown here in take-down form, it is basically a pole with a triple spear head on one end and a loop of surgical tubing on the other.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also handy for catching lunch. Perfectly innocuous on a boat - just part of the normal gear anyone would expect to see.


Or how about a bang stick / power head?








Good for sharks too!


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## neverknow

I've been dreaming up this method of electrifying the life lines. It would be easy to do on a fiber glass boat. A high voltage inventor and a safe activation system is all that would be needed. 

Once a threat has been determined all you'd have to do is turn the system on from the safety of the cabin. 

Let's face it most criminals are stupid people. If at the first sign of trouble you set off a loud siren and light them up with a spot light, throw in some flashing police lights etc the bad guys will more than likely decide to move on. If all that doesn't stop them than turn on the electric life lines and retreat to the cabin. With a step up transformer and a cheap inverter you can easily put 5000 volts @ 500 watts on the lines. That's enough power to either kill them or certainly make them decide it's not worth it.

Edit, I was thinking this would be more for the horn of Africa, gulf of Aden etc.


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## killarney_sailor

*No one goes that way anymore ...*



neverknow said:


> Edit, I was thinking this would be more for the horn of Africa, gulf of Aden etc.


The reality is that cruisers are not going that way. Even a year ago there were a few flotillas going from India, but this season basically no one is. Cruisers typically are smart enough people to see a potentially very serious risk and avoid it and not pretend that they are a match to highly-organized, heavily armed bad guys. The alternatives are to go around South Africa, do a Pacific loop, or stay in the Pacific or SE Asia and await developments.


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## flyingwelshman

Just came across this.

It's an Early Warning System that would give cruisers enough advanced warning of impending trouble to assemble spearguns, load cannons, charge electric fences, retrieve their 'piece' from that secure cubby hole etc.

It's new from Italy. It's called The Schettino Early Warning System.

It's very easy to operate. It just hangs out at different parts of the vessel. When it perceives danger the Schettino automatically ejects itself from the boat.

Having left the boat the Schettino will 'fall' into any vessel that is in close proximity - ideally the pirate ship.

Once safely aboard the other vessel the Schettino will lie on the deckboards making incomprehensible and fantastical statements and whimpering inconsolably, thereby totally confusing anyone within earshot.

Here's what the unit looks like:










And here you can see that the Cruise industry has reacted very quickly and equipped some of their liners with this new piece of safety equipment:










The Schettino Early Warning System: Safety First!


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## BreakAwayFL

Houze66 said:


> I met a guy in Key West who sailed solo. He related what time and money it took to get himself out of some lousy prison because he had hidden a gun aboard and they found it. I did not ask why he had it aboard. But he did not carry again after that. I knew another trawler guy who showed me his pull-out galley that led to compartment under his deck mid-ships that he claimed dogs could not sniff out and metal sweeps could not ping. I did not see the guns, I did not go trawler but went s/v. So far here in ME waters I need nothing like a gun aboard--just maintenance on the boat and a real fear of hypothermia if I fall overboard. That would be shooting myself in the foot.


Well he was dumb for hiding it. Even if you sail to Cuba, you just tell them you have it and they will lock it up for the duration.


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## johnnyquest37

To specifically answer the orginal question, no, I do not normally carry firearms when cruising. I cruise mainly in the Chesapeake Bay. Some of my regular crew have been law enforcement - they usually bring weapons aboard, and on occasion, I will too, but rarely.

Cruising out of the US - would like to carry weapons, but it depends on where you are going. When I have sailed out of the USA, I did not bring weapons because the areas I went to were safe enough and their gun laws made bringing a weapon pointless.

Would like to relay a story involving a weapon aboard. Was sailing the Chesapeake with my family and another family just for the day. For no particular reason, I had a handgun with me packed in my day bag. We were moving along marvelously on a close to beam reach. Two other boats were sailing near us, one to windward and one to leeward. Ahead, appeard a small motor boat with an enclosed bridge forward and an open aft deck. They were moving slowly, apparently trolling, but we would pass well behind them on our current heading. When we got closer, we could see children and adults fishing from many poles. Looked like grandpa was out on the water fishing with his grandkids. But grandpa wasn't paying too much attention. He changed course radically when we were only a couple hundred feet from passing well astern. Guess he couldn't see three sets of sails bearing down to his starboard. Quickly, I turned as much as I could without gybing (couldn't turn to weather because of another boat on the same heading as us). Thought I passed far enough astern, but guess not, because all those fishing poles on grandpa's boat starting bending and straining as my keel picked up his fishing lines. Grandpa sharged out of his wheel house, cursing and screaming while he cut the lines from his poles. He then gunned his engine and came alongside of us, shouting, cursing and threatening to come board our boat and do me harm. I called out to the skippers of the other boats and they both agreed that I had the right of way, but grandpa was not mollified and shouted that he was coming aboard and was going to do such-and-such (all this in front of his grandkids, mind you - tsk, tsk). In a loud voice, I asked one of my crew to retrieve the pistol from my bag and if grandpa attempted to board, to shoot him. In an equally loud voice, Roger sounded off with an "aye, aye" and went below. At this point, grandpa calmed down, quit spewing profanities and threats and headed off in another direction. 

Did I need the weapon to deal with grandpa? No, but having it did diffuse this particular situation. As they say, an armed population is a polite population.


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## BreakAwayFL

My wife and I both have concealed carry permits with reciprocity in 37 states.

We carry in US waters, have not been outside US sailing yet, but we plan on carrying internationally in accordance with local laws.

I have not heard of any country in the Caribbean - including Cuba - that will make an issue of your having guns on board AS LONG as you declare them right away. Cuba locks them in a case, gives you the key and takes the case with them, returning it when you leave. I'm sure other countries have similar policies. But I don't know of any that will cause an issue, unless you try to hide them. If you do try to hide them, you're just plain stupid. If anyone knows otherwise, please correct me. Also remember that my knowledge is limited to Caribbean nations, so don't tell me about the Philippines.


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## vega1860

There is no risk _avoidance_ in cruising. Risk _management_ is the essence of adventure.


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## travlin-easy

johnnyquest37,

Obviously, you know little or nothing about trolling, particularly on Chesapeake Bay. Passing just 100-feet astern of the boat probably cost that captain $150 in terminal fishing gear, plus a fair amount of expensive, heavy, stainless steel line. I cannot fault you for NOT knowing anything about recreational or commercial fishing, but I would hope this would be a lesson to others. 

Trolling for striped bass and bluefish, particularly this time of year, involves using really expensive terminal tackle (lures, planers, outriders, etc...) and more often than not the lures are situated from 75 to 300-feet after of the boat, just a few feet beneath the surface. Why so shallow? This is where the water temperature is relatively warm, it's where the baitfish are migrating and where those big striped bass and bluefish actively feed. 

I'm sure gramps was pissed--anyone would have been that was put in that situation would be. If gramp's stainless lines would have crossed your bow, and sliced your jib to thin slivers, I'd bet my last dollar that you would be screaming your lungs out, motoring up to his boat and threatening to kill him.

Hopefully, anyone reading this will learn something from your experience and give those trollers a wide berth. Same holds true with those boats out of Tilghman, Solomons, and Point Lookout that are out there chumming. Give them a wide berth and don't sail through their chum slicks--it's common courtesy.

Cheers,

Gary


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## SeanL

easy enough to hide a pistol or even a shotgun on a big enough boat but truth be told if your in a place where you have to worry about boarders its gona be some 17 year old kid with an AK and he's not going wait until you dig out your toy want to feel safer stay where its safe or get a nice 3 band spear gun that will scare the crap out of anyone


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## jerryrlitton

I am not sure but was there some piracy lately towards Belize? I thought I read that somewhere.


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## jerryrlitton

Pirate Attack on Sailboat in Quepos / News Briefs / Current Edition / Costa Rica Newspaper, The Tico Times

Not Belize. Not sure if a firearm would have helped. However carry one is a very personal choice. Having one will not help if you and yours are untrained, don't have the ability to know when to use it and not have the mental ability to follow through.


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## Patient

Brent Swain said:


> In Spitzbergen, it's illegal to go ashore without a rifle. Polar bears are just that dangerous.
> Grizzlies and Kodiak bears can be just as dangerous. A friend had her 11 year old son killed by a cougar , while playing in his own back yard. That is becoming far more common in the wake of ever toughening gun control. Those who live in areas where there are no large predators, have no right to point a sanctimonius finger at those who do, nor make the rules for them..
> Fortunately, Canada's long gun registry is heading for the scrap heap at the end of this month, after squandering 2 billion dollars, and proving to be totally useless.


Hey Brent,

I have actually been to Svalbard (Spitsbergen), it is exactly as you described. I had to sign a form declaring that I would not venture outside the "safe zone" without a rifle and was directed to a cabin that provisioned them for that purpose. I also had to sign waivers of insurance if I could not prove I had the money to fund a rescue if I was lost.

As for the topic, hard to say. I live on the edge of a nasty area in Chicago (The city) and have been mugged at gunpoint 2 times in the last 5 years. Chicago is one of the few cities in the country without concealed carry laws. Actually gun ownership here is jailtime. In fact, there are instances of when a Chicago home owner shot an armed home intruder with a scary rap sheet, not killing him, only to lose in civil court for his injuries and also face criminal prosecution as well. As the saying goes, "Gun laws produce Outlaws".

I have spent a bit of money to seek training in firearms and really I think this is the absolute most crucial aspect of the topic. Training, training and more training. What comes with that training in MOST cases is a very lengthy discussion of what constitutes the use of lethal force. The legal ramifications of using your weapon to protect yourself and really the principle behind using firearms as well.

Someone stealing your car is not cause for drawing your weapon (Except in Texas). Stumbling upon a sexual assault is not a cause for drawing your weapon. A mad-man running at you screaming "Ima kill you!" in most states is not.. cause for drawing your weapon.

The only case when you should EVER remove your weapon from your holster is when it is absolutely certain that you face grave and potentially lethal harm to yourself and you shoot to kill. Brandishing is against the LAW (Scaring people with your weapon)

So heres the big question crusing wise. How do you determine that criteria while enjoying a dinner in the cockpit or resting soundly in the your v-berth when you hear a bump in the night? I just dont see it being that easy.

Being in the gulf of Aden and having a rifle perched against the pulpit is one thing, but the MAJORITY of these attacks we are talking about involve being at a mooring late at night with silent boarders that will be in your gallery before you flip on the lights. Its the definition of "close quarters" which SWAT teams and the military spend hours upon hours training for.

Its really a tough call. If the red tape wasnt so bad, I'd consider bringing something aboard, but there are so many other factors. If I did do it, I would most likely carry a Mossberg Mariner locked in a case in the wet locker, but I'd have to be told by _several_ people that did the same things, that they had no problems that resulted in it being thrown overboard due to the complications of having it aboard.

Lastly, I see a lot of recommendations and tinkering with different non-lethal contraptions for intruders. Ask yourself one thing when considering those, "What are you going to do after you use it?" Are you fit enough to subdue a one or even more people rolling around on your deck after you pepper spray them until help arrives?

Wouldn't it be MORE effective to circumvent that altogether by making them NOT come aboard in the first place? I'd prefer a panic button with a VERY obnoxious siren and extremely bright deck lights to having to deal with an angry, maced and desperate assailant flailing around my cockpit.

Thats my .02 at least.


----------



## bljones

johnnyquest37 said:


> Would like to relay a story involving a weapon aboard. Was sailing the Chesapeake with my family and another family just for the day. For no particular reason, I had a handgun with me packed in my day bag. We were moving along marvelously on a close to beam reach. Two other boats were sailing near us, one to windward and one to leeward. Ahead, appeard a small motor boat with an enclosed bridge forward and an open aft deck. They were moving slowly, apparently trolling, but we would pass well behind them on our current heading. When we got closer, we could see children and adults fishing from many poles. Looked like grandpa was out on the water fishing with his grandkids. But grandpa wasn't paying too much attention. He changed course radically when we were only a couple hundred feet from passing well astern. Guess he couldn't see three sets of sails bearing down to his starboard. Quickly, I turned as much as I could without gybing (couldn't turn to weather because of another boat on the same heading as us). Thought I passed far enough astern, but guess not, because all those fishing poles on grandpa's boat starting bending and straining as my keel picked up his fishing lines. Grandpa sharged out of his wheel house, cursing and screaming while he cut the lines from his poles. He then gunned his engine and came alongside of us, shouting, cursing and threatening to come board our boat and do me harm. I called out to the skippers of the other boats and they both agreed that I had the right of way, but grandpa was not mollified and shouted that he was coming aboard and was going to do such-and-such (all this in front of his grandkids, mind you - tsk, tsk). In a loud voice, I asked one of my crew to retrieve the pistol from my bag and if grandpa attempted to board, to shoot him. In an equally loud voice, Roger sounded off with an "aye, aye" and went below. At this point, grandpa calmed down, quit spewing profanities and threats and headed off in another direction.
> 
> Did I need the weapon to deal with grandpa? No, but having it did diffuse this particular situation. As they say, an armed population is a polite population.


You snag the guy's lines, he gets rightfully pissed, and IN FRONT OF HIS GRANDKIDS you threaten to shoot him, but tsk tsk grandpa for his language?

Hey, did YOU apologize to gramps? Did you alert gramps with a hail or a horn signal to your presence prior to passing his transom?

Yeah, you diffused that situation alright. And gave more ammo to the fisherman side of the fisherman/sailor civil war. "He cut my lines, and then threatened to shoot me!"


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## JonEisberg

johnnyquest37 said:


> Did I need the weapon to deal with grandpa? No, but having it did diffuse this particular situation. As they say, an armed population is a polite population.


Sorry, but the fact that you thought you needed to resort to the threat of gun violence to "diffuse" a situation in broad daylight, while recreating on pleasure craft in the middle of Chesapeake Bay, with children present, has to rate as one of the more depressing commentaries on modern American life I've seen in quite some time..



jerryrlitton said:


> I am not sure but was there some piracy lately towards Belize? I thought I read that somewhere.


Yeah, this is VERY troubling news, as until recently Belize had no prior history of such violent incidents against cruisers... I really enjoyed my cruising there a few years ago, aside from Belize City, everywhere I went felt remarkably safe... Now, however, with their recent institution of daily "anchoring fees", and now this latest news, add Belize to the lengthening list of places that I'm glad I saw "when I did"...

http://www.noonsite.com/Members/sue/R2012-03-23-5/view


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## Brent Swain

Yes most pirate attacks I've heard of involve waking to find people in your cabin. Takes a careless skipper to go to bed in a cabin which can be easily entered without waking anyone. 
I have a steel wheelhouse with aluminium hatches which can be locked in a partly open position to allow air flow, but make it extremely difficult for anyone to get in period, let alone silently. Anything less is just plain carelessness, and being irresponsible to your crew. 
I can open my port and put a spear thru the testicles of anyone on deck while enjoying the protection of a steel wheelhouse, locked form inside, which would take considerable time with serious power tools for anyone to get inside. I would never open it for anyone I didn't want inside. .


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## JonEisberg

BreakAwayFL said:


> I have not heard of any country in the Caribbean - including Cuba - that will make an issue of your having guns on board AS LONG as you declare them right away. Cuba locks them in a case, gives you the key and takes the case with them, returning it when you leave.


Just curious, have you ever actually cruised in Cuba?

I can't imagine why anyone would bother bringing a gun into that country... Do you have any idea of the hassle involved in simply cruising coastwise in that country, the requirements that you check out with the Guarda, and then back in, every single time the boat moves? How difficult it is to be underway, even in the most fortuitous of situations, much before 1000 or 1100 on any given day? The amount of paperwork involved with each move, the having to account for each and every GPS aboard, for example, twice each day?

To introduce firearms and ammunition into that equation, I can't even begin to imagine the added complexity and hassle of dealing with the Cuban officialdom... Hell, I'm afraid if I went to Cuba again, and had weapons aboard, I'd wind up shooting MYSELF, simply out of frustration... (grin)


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## travlin-easy

Nice photo. Jon, where are you from? Last time I checked it was illegal for Americans to visit Cuba. 

Gary


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## chrisncate

I plan to cruise with a phased plasma rifle, something in the 40 watt range..


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## JonEisberg

travlineasy said:


> Nice photo. Jon, where are you from? Last time I checked it was illegal for Americans to visit Cuba.
> 
> Gary


Born in the USA, every bit as much of a Jersey Boy as The Boss (grin)...

Nah, nothing wrong with US citizens actually _GOING _ to Cuba - it's _spending money_ there, that's the problem...

When I was in Marina Hemingway, Tommy Hilfiger's 170' Bennetti TOMMY was there, as well... Yeah, I'm sure he didn't spend a _dime_ during his extended stay there... Naturally, she (or he?) was flying a foreign flag, perhaps that makes him exempt... That our State Department would attempt to make an example of confiscating a celebrity's $25 million yacht seems highly unlikely, at any rate...

It's a risk for us average folk to go there, no question... but there are plenty of Americans doing it, and getting away with it...

Simply take a foreign passport holder along, claim they're paying for everything, and you're golden... (grin)

Magical place, no doubt about it...

And, not much need to be armed, as far as I could tell... (grin)


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## CaptFoolhardy

chrisncate said:


> I plan to cruise with a phased plasma rifle, something in the 40 watt range..


Hey, just what you see pal! ;-)


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## CaptFoolhardy

BreakAwayFL said:


> I have not heard of any country in the Caribbean - including Cuba - that will make an issue of your having guns on board AS LONG as you declare them right away. Cuba locks them in a case, gives you the key and takes the case with them, returning it when you leave. I'm sure other countries have similar policies.


What's the point of bringing it then? From the reports that I have read the vast majority of crime against cruisers, violent or otherwise, takes place at anchor. If your gun is confiscated upon check-in with customs it kind of defeats the purpose of having it with you in the first place, doesn't it?


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## travlin-easy

The first time I was in Havana was 1958, it was a beautiful city, business was booming, a guy by the name of Batista was running the country and Americans were dumping a ton of money into the place. 

The next time I was in Cuba was early 1960, Havana was Off Limits to all armed forces personnel, there were Cuban regular army patrols along the outer perimeter of Guantanamo with machine guns and the few Cubans that were still working on the base were afraid to come to work, fearing reprisals against their families.

A few years later, my brother, whom is two years younger than myself, was stationed aboard a U.S. Navy Destroyer. He was home on leave when the telephone rang and someone at the other end told him that he had 24 hours to be back aboard the ship. His ship was one of the many involved in the Cuban Missile Crisis Blockade. When it was over he told us about seeing Russian ships headed for Cuba with missile cases stacked on the decks of the ships.

I have a Canadian friend who recently sailed to Cuba, he too was there as a youngster and he related the differences in Havana today when compared to what it was prior to Castro. From what he told me, the city is crumbling, poverty is widespread and after his 4-day stay he was ready to get out of Havana and return home. He said that despite the high police presence he still did not feel safe--even during the day.

I suspect that some day Havana will become a tourist city again, but I don't think will happen in my lifetime. It would take a mammoth investment to restore the city to what it was back in the 1950s, and I don't believe investors would be willing to take the risks involved.

Be safe,

Gary


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## Brent Swain

travlineasy said:


> The first time I was in Havana was 1958, it was a beautiful city, business was booming, a guy by the name of Batista was running the country and Americans were dumping a ton of money into the place.
> 
> The next time I was in Cuba was early 1960, Havana was Off Limits to all armed forces personnel, there were Cuban regular army patrols along the outer perimeter of Guantanamo with machine guns and the few Cubans that were still working on the base were afraid to come to work, fearing reprisals against their families.
> 
> A few years later, my brother, whom is two years younger than myself, was stationed aboard a U.S. Navy Destroyer. He was home on leave when the telephone rang and someone at the other end told him that he had 24 hours to be back aboard the ship. His ship was one of the many involved in the Cuban Missile Crisis Blockade. When it was over he told us about seeing Russian ships headed for Cuba with missile cases stacked on the decks of the ships.
> 
> I have a Canadian friend who recently sailed to Cuba, he too was there as a youngster and he related the differences in Havana today when compared to what it was prior to Castro. From what he told me, the city is crumbling, poverty is widespread and after his 4-day stay he was ready to get out of Havana and return home. He said that despite the high police presence he still did not feel safe--even during the day.
> 
> I suspect that some day Havana will become a tourist city again, but I don't think will happen in my lifetime. It would take a mammoth investment to restore the city to what it was back in the 1950s, and I don't believe investors would be willing to take the risks involved.
> 
> Be safe,
> 
> Gary


Havana , before Castro, was one huge US brothel. Sure, prostitution pays including sexual slavery. The reason things are crumbling is because of the US embargo. Get rid of that and it will be far ahead of other Carribean countries. Is life in Haiti, Jamaica, The Dominican Republic, etc , pure paradise, given their obedient following of Uncle Sam's orders.
Cuba is one of the safest places in the Carribean.


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## jackdale

Brent Swain said:


> Cuba is one of the safest places in the Carribean.


Just ask the Canadian tourists who flock there.


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## jackdale

travlineasy said:


> The first time I was in Havana was 1958, it was a beautiful city, business was booming, a guy by the name of Batista was running the country and Americans were dumping a ton of money into the place.


Yes it was a paradise 



> Back in power, Batista suspended the 1940 Constitution and revoked most political liberties, including the right to strike. He then aligned with the wealthiest landowners who owned the largest sugar plantations, and presided over a stagnating economy that widened the gap between rich and poor Cubans. Batista's increasingly corrupt and repressive regime then began to systematically profit from the exploitation of Cuba's commercial interests, by negotiating lucrative relationships with the American mafia, who controlled the drug, gambling, and prostitution businesses in Havana, and with large multinational American corporations that had invested considerable amounts of money in Cuba. To quell the growing discontent amongst the populace - which was subsequently displayed through frequent student riots and anti-Batista demonstrations - Batista established tighter censorship of the media, while also utilizing his anti-Communist secret police and U.S.-supplied weaponry to carry out wide-scale violence, torture and public executions; ultimately killing as many as 20,000 Cubans.


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## bljones

Brent Swain said:


> Cuba is one of the cheapest places in the Carribean.


Fixed that for you.

You might want to check your facts regarding the rest of the caribbean before you continue on your alienating American-hating rant, Brent.

btw, since you hate the USA so much, do you stand behind your hate and refuse to sell books and plans to Americans and ship to the US?


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## jackdale

bljones said:


> Fixed that for you.
> 
> You might want to check your facts regarding the rest of the caribbean before you continue on your alienating American-hating rant, Brent.
> 
> btw, since you hate the USA so much, do you stand behind your hate and refuse to sell books and plans to Americans and ship to the US?


What anti-American rant?

FYI



> Crime rates in Cuba
> 
> Cuba easily has one of the lowest overall crime rates in all of Latin America. Cuba is often considered by most experienced travellers to be the safest of all Latin American countries and probably one of the safest tourist destinations in the world in terms of crime. However, like every country, Cuba is not immune to crime and it is always worthwhile being aware of a few potential dangers so you can avoid being a victim of crime while in Cuba.
> 
> Violent crime in Cuba
> 
> The rate of violent crime in Cuba is very low, and it is even rarer for violent crimes in Cuba to be perpetrated against foreign tourists. Cuban people in general are very friendly and helpful regardless of their economic status, so crimes such as mugging do not really occur very often in Cuba. The only obvious advice one can offer with regards to avoiding violent crime in Cuba is to stay in public places and not go anywhere isolated with people you've just met. You are more likely to be the victim of violent crime in Cuba at the hands of another drunken tourist than you are by a Cuban national.


Interesting Facts & Information: tourism, travel, culture, language, business, people. » Blog Archive » Common Crime in Cuba


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## bljones

You missed my point, jack- nobody flocks to cuba because it is safe- it's because it is cheap. It could be argued that Cuba is safe because, when your only significant industry is tourism, the authorities tend to rule with an iron fist. So, it is because Cubas is cheap that Cuba is safe...unless, you know, you defy the regime, argue for ownership, freedom, stuff we take for granted that won't change if the embargo is lifted.

The embargo didn't cause Castro and fill Castro's jails, and lifting the embargo won't change the regime.

Yes, Cuba is a nice vacation destination...until it is not.
Don't get in a car accident.
Simcoe teen detained in Cuba to be sent home this week - 680News

Non-violent non-crime can still really ruin your day in Cuba... unlike in most other Caribbean countries.


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## sharkbait

1


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## bljones

sharkbait said:


> ...my mother in-law.


Uh, wouldn't you prefer to take your chances on the long odds of piracy rather than the certainty of self-inflicted MIL abuse?


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## travlin-easy

I think the scariest place I've ever visited by boat is the city of Washington, D.C., followed by Baltimore. I played music in Baltimore's Little Italy for a while, the pay was lousy, but the tips were great. Biggest problem was you finished work about midnight, you had a wad of cash in your pocket and the criminal element was well aware of this. I was fortunate in that I was usually able to park on the lots adjacent to the restaurant, but there were times when this wasn't possible. 

Beirut, Lebanon, when I was a kid in the U.S. Navy, was a huge resort city, but a couple regime changes and the place sure went to Hell in a hand-basket. I sure wouldn't consider visiting there today. Same was true with Barcelona, Spain, Southern Italy, Northern Sicily, Greece and Cyprus. Lots of great memories from the late 1950s.

I always felt pretty safe in Oslo, Norway and Copenhagen, Denmark. Lots of pretty ladies there with blond hair and beautiful, haunting, blue eyes. I walked the streets of the Reeperbahn in Hamburg, Germany in 1958, which at the time was a huge red light district of several blocks long. I was 18 years old, never felt in danger, and even when I was hopelessly lost in the city, some kind soul gave me directions in broken English that allowed me to get back to my ship. It was a neat time in my life, but I wouldn't venture there today.

Cuba may be relatively safe for the touristas, especially when compared to places such as Haiti, Dominican Republic, Puerto Rico (downtown San Juan), and some of the other islands, but it's no longer on MY bucket list. I think I would rather anchor up at the Dry Tortugas, tilt a big margaretta and watch the world's most beautiful sunsets. Don't need a gun there--well, maybe a spear gun for diving outside the MPA to fend off the bull sharks.

Cheers,

Gary


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## Minnewaska

Embargo or otherwise, can anyone name a country ruled by a single Dictator than has a thriving economy, good infrastructure, low crime and it's people live free? The closest I can come up with are some oil producing nations, but they hardly live free, are home to the world's elite terrorists, and when the oil runs dry or we move on to other sources, they will crumble into anarchy. 

The US has played a contraversial role in the history of Cuba, but their economy is as much there own doing. They are proud of being socialist. Education and medical care for everyone, but little else is considered necessary, unless you are a member of the ruling class. With the same education and smarts, you will live much better if you work in the government in Cuba than if you just get a regular job. That's how socialism typically works, it has repeated itself numerous times throughout history. Socialist leaders hold on to a following, even the cruel ones, by metering out resources to their followers.

Guns are not necessary for cruisers in Cuba, for sure. It is a police state, their leader dresses in military uniform. People don't commit crime for a reason. However, whisper that you are willing to take human cargo back to the US and your boat will fill up the point of foundering. Ironic, if it's the US that you think the Cuban people blame for their condition.

(naturally, one better not make that whisper)


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## jackdale

Minnewaska said:


> can anyone name a country ruled by a single Dictator than has a thriving economy, good infrastructure, low crime and it's people live free?


I love a challenge - The Principality of Monaco.


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## jrd22

I believe that is a Monarchy Jack.


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## jackdale

jrd22 said:


> I believe that is a Monarchy Jack.


Official title



> conventional long form: Principality of Monaco


https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/mn.html


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## bljones

jackdale said:


> I love a challenge - The Principality of Monaco.


Apparently, you have never been to Monaco- ain't nuthin' free there.


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## jackdale

bljones said:


> Apparently, you have never been to Monaco- ain't nuthin' free there.





Minnewaska said:


> can anyone name a country ruled by a single Dictator than has a thriving economy, good infrastructure, low crime and *it's people live free?*


Not FOR free. Of course , there is no income tax.


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## Minnewaska

jackdale said:


> I love a challenge - The Principality of Monaco.


Good one, but form over substance.

The Minister of State is French, despite Monaco having the "option" of appointing one of their own. Monaco is just a billionaires Las Vegas, with it's strings pulled by France.

A constitutional monarchy (read as limited power), with a baby sitter from a democracy, seems like a pretty affluent model. Just didn't pass the Dictator test.


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## Mormandeus

I'm packin every time I go out. One easily grabbed pistol and one kick ass cannon for megadamage. Those supersoakers keep the riff raff thinking twice about any boarding attempts.


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## Scottyrocket

bljones said:


> Fixed that for you.
> 
> You might want to check your facts regarding the rest of the caribbean before you continue on your alienating American-hating rant, Brent.
> 
> btw, since you hate the USA so much, do you stand behind your hate and refuse to sell books and plans to Americans and ship to the US?


An American hating rant ? What so any criticism of America's foreign policy follies by any non American makes us anti American ? I don't think so.


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## bljones

Scottyrocket said:


> An American hating rant ? What so any criticism of America's foreign policy follies by any non American makes us anti American ? I don't think so.


Scotty, i would agree with you, if there wasn't a history and a context involved. I DON'T want to turn this into an off-topic thread.


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## Capt Len

Back in the day an American power boat anchored in Pender Harbour B.C.complained loudly to a local beachcomber about his wake. Beachcomber goes around a few times to show him what a real wake looks like. Yank raises the level of dialog with his hand gun (as if this would intimidate a beachcomber) Power boat was quickly punched full of 308. Nobody hurt but you gotta wonder. Shoot to kill? The decision to use or even show a weapon may well help clean up the gene pool.


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## bljones

Capt Len said:


> Back in the day an American power boat anchored in Pender Harbour B.C.complained loudly to a local beachcomber about his wake. Beachcomber goes around a few times to show him what a real wake looks like. Yank raises the level of dialog with his hand gun (as if this would intimidate a beachcomber) Power boat was quickly punched full of 308. Nobody hurt but you gotta wonder. Shoot to kill? The decision to use or even show a weapon may well help clean up the gene pool.


Hey, I think I saw that episode. Wasn't that the one where Nick and Jesse had to ask Molly for a loan to bail Relic out of jail?

(95% of the sailnet members are scratching their heads, while 5% are wondering if that was the same episode where Relic and Nick shook their fists at each other...oh wait, that was every episode.)


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## JonEisberg

CaptFoolhardy said:


> Originally Posted by BreakAwayFL
> I have not heard of any country in the Caribbean - including Cuba - that will make an issue of your having guns on board AS LONG as you declare them right away. Cuba locks them in a case, gives you the key and takes the case with them, returning it when you leave. I'm sure other countries have similar policies.
> 
> 
> 
> What's the point of bringing it then? From the reports that I have read the vast majority of crime against cruisers, violent or otherwise, takes place at anchor. If your gun is confiscated upon check-in with customs it kind of defeats the purpose of having it with you in the first place, doesn't it?
Click to expand...

Funny how no proponents of cruising armed outside of the US seem to want to deal with that question&#8230;

Having observed and participated in numerous gun-related threads on a variety of sailing forums for going on 15 years now, and in conversations with cruisers I've encountered out there, I've reached the following 2 conclusions&#8230;

Most people determined to be armed wherever they sail (the overwhelming percentage of those being Americans, of course) aren't likely to be ever going much of anywhere outside of the States - at least, not much beyond the Bahamas, perhaps, or a bit further into the Caribbean basin&#8230;

And, anyone determined to pack heat further afield, is likely to be doing so surreptitiously, keeping their weapons hidden but in their possession at all times, and not declaring them to the local authorities&#8230; That in itself can be a huge risk, of course - in many places, I suspect one might be in greater jeopardy by simply not declaring a weapon, than in actually using one&#8230;

I simply can't imagine a way to make cruising great distances, and visiting a wide array of countries, any more _IMPRACTICAL_ than it can otherwise be, than dealing with the logistics of following the letter of the law regarding gun possession throughout the world&#8230; I seriously doubt more than perhaps a mere handful of world cruisers actually do such a thing, and I would guess that most folks at some point either toss their guns overboard, find or create a secure/"bulletproof" hiding place for them, or simply decide not to sail to places outside of their "comfort zone", such as the Bahamas, where restrictions on gun importation are rather lax&#8230;

In other words, much of this translates into A Lot of Talk, But Little Action&#8230; (grin)



travlineasy said:


> I suspect that some day Havana will become a tourist city again, but I don't think will happen in my lifetime. It would take a mammoth investment to restore the city to what it was back in the 1950s, and I don't believe investors would be willing to take the risks involved.


Only time will tell, of course, but my guess would be quite the opposite&#8230; Hell, I'll bet there's a few hundred million of potential investment capital in South Florida alone, ready to jump at the opportunity&#8230;

Havana already IS a tourist city, Americans are just the only ones not currently playing there&#8230; Once Cuba opens up, it will become THE Number One travel destination for hordes of Americans, the one place so few of us have yet seen, only 90 miles from our shores&#8230; There will be no need to "restore" the entire city, just spiff up Old Havana and the Malecon, the place would be booming&#8230; Hell, decades after gambling was legalized in Atlantic City, the entire place is still a dump once you get a few blocks in from the boardwalk. Has that kept either investors, or tourists, at bay?

Dealing with the Cuban regime, of course, might pose some risks to investors&#8230; But the rest of the world has been doing so for decades, the tourist infrastructure in parts of Cuba is already quite impressive&#8230; You don't think American investors are as savvy as the Germans, Italians, and Dutch, perhaps?

You doubt that McDonalds or Burger King wouldn't KILL for the chance a placing a franchise or two along the Malecon? Damn, one of those would likely see greater volume than those on the Champs Ellysees&#8230; (grin)










Or, that someone like the good folks at ROAD & TRACK wouldn't jump on the opportunity to sponsor guided cruises from Miami for aging Boomers to the World's Greatest Living Museum of American Automotive Art?










And, speaking of Aging Boomers, how could I have forgotten to mention the likelihood of Americans flocking to Cuba in search of more affordable medical care than they can find at home?

Just a matter of time, IMHO, before Havana will become an overnight tourist mecca for Americans, the likes of which we've never seen...

On the other hand, I could be wrong about that... (grin)


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## killarney_sailor

Minnewaska said:


> Embargo or otherwise, can anyone name a country ruled by a single Dictator than has a thriving economy, good infrastructure, low crime and it's people live free? The closest I can come up with are some oil producing nations, but they hardly live free, are home to the world's elite terrorists, and when the oil runs dry or we move on to other sources, they will crumble into anarchy.


Couple of comments. Among the oil countries, Dubai would have qualified pretty well under their property bubble burst. They also are not principally an oil state since they did not have much oil to start with. Their leadership has been very clever in building an economy around things like tourism, air travel hub, investments in particular for Moslems, shopping etc.

Elsewhere, Fiji comes to mind. It has an odd recent history. They restore a democratic system and then the government does something the military strongman (Commodore Frank whose last name I forget) does not like. He organizes a bloodless coup and takes power promising elections for the future. When he does this, they kick Fiji out of the Commonwealth, which is a big deal to the Commodore since he is a great admirer of the Queen. Anyway, the country runs very smoothly and you get know sense that it is being run by the military.


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## Minnewaska

Fun feedback. I don't think Fiji qualifies as a thriving economy. Dubai was specifically one of the Middle Eastern nations I was considering could be close, along with Kuwait. However, neither will retain their prominence when the region collapses and their people do not live free. Ask their women. I was offered a job by a Kuwaiti company many years ago and it was made clear that I would never excell beyond that position without being related to the royal family. It wasn't hinted, it was made clear. They found me, I wasn't interested. As an interesting historical fact, Iraq invaded Kuwait about 3 months later.

As long as Cuba does not protect personal property rights, there will NOT be significant international investment made there. If their current regime topples, I fully agree it can become a tourist Mecca again.


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## tdw

Maybe the difference is the distinction between military and non military ? Fiji may not be a large economy but it as KS said doing quite nicely thank you very much. 

Thinking back to local dictatorships such as Marcos in the Philipines and Suharto in Indonesia (both of which come to think of it were kept in power by dint of the military) they so raped and pillaged the nations they ruled, that slightly less than half of sweet bugger all made it through to the general populace. I was all very well for the spivs and cronies to blather on about a nation needing string government but what they really meant was government that kept the masses very firmly in their place and that place was not terribly oucrative.


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## Minnewaska

tdw said:


> ..... Fiji may not be a large economy but it as KS said doing quite nicely thank you very much.....


Despite the peace and tranquility, their economy certainly isn't thriving. Medical care is moderate, you wouldn't want to be there with cancer or in need of an organ transplant. According to buddies that have gone diving in the PIN's, things like power, telephones and Internet are not fully reliable.

Nevertheless, that might be as good as it could be there, despite the form of govt. Interesting twist.


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## xymotic

Minnewaska said:


> Despite the peace and tranquility, their economy certainly isn't thriving. Medical care is moderate, you wouldn't want to be there with cancer or in need of an organ transplant. According to buddies that have gone diving in the PIN's, things like power, telephones and Internet are not fully reliable.
> 
> Nevertheless, that might be as good as it could be there, despite the form of govt. Interesting twist.


What's It Like to Live on Guam?

things that make you go "hmmmmm"


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## killarney_sailor

Minnewaska said:


> Despite the peace and tranquility, their economy certainly isn't thriving. Medical care is moderate, you wouldn't want to be there with cancer or in need of an organ transplant. According to buddies that have gone diving in the PIN's, things like power, telephones and Internet are not fully reliable.
> 
> Nevertheless, that might be as good as it could be there, despite the form of govt. Interesting twist.


Guess it depends on how you define "thriving". It certainly is not growing like China, nor is it suffering like Greece. I certainly did not see signs of gross poverty like people sleeping on the street. There is a considerable difference between the wealthy and the less wealthy - unfortunately, the income differences seem to follow the racial differences in the country. The poor tend to be native Fijian, while the rich tend to Indian (of which there are many), white, and Chinese. China is very much involved with the economy there.

I had reason to visit the Private Hospital in Suva. It was quite impressive. The doctor was Indian Fijian and had trained in Oz. The total cost for the visit was $16. Doubt they do organ transplants but would not be surprised if they had decent cancer treatment.

Heck if you want thriving, pick one of the major cities in China. People generally think the government is doing a good job (excellent infrastructure and mostly they keep out of the way). Environmental conditions are terrible; health care is excellent, if you can afford it, and you can get rich.


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## BreakAwayFL

> Originally Posted by CaptFoolhardy View Post
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by BreakAwayFL
> I have not heard of any country in the Caribbean - including Cuba - that will make an issue of your having guns on board AS LONG as you declare them right away. Cuba locks them in a case, gives you the key and takes the case with them, returning it when you leave. I'm sure other countries have similar policies.
> What's the point of bringing it then? From the reports that I have read the vast majority of crime against cruisers, violent or otherwise, takes place at anchor. If your gun is confiscated upon check-in with customs it kind of defeats the purpose of having it with you in the first place, doesn't it?


It does not defeat the purpose. I don't need a gun when I'm in Hemingway Marina, Havana, for example. Once I depart Hemingway Marina, even if I am cruising Cuban waters, my firearm is returned to my possession. However, when I make port again, it will be locked up. This policy is made more simple by the fact that there are only a few legal ports of entry for a boat traveling to Cuba.

When I am in a nation that confiscates firearms, I am reliant on their law enforcement, for good or ill, to protect me. If I don't think that's safe enough, then I should not have sailed there. (and would not)

At sea, however, there is no local law enforcement. Just me and my family. I'm in charge of protecting them and myself at sea. I'll do so by whatever means necessary.


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## Patient

Hey everyone, I was just sent this video by a friend and thought I should share it here.

I am told this is the first documented case of an tanker that uses a security firm making contact with pirates, at least in video form.

Link: (Warning: Although not graphic, the Video involves shooting at pirates and is pretty intense.)

I am really on the fence about this to be honest. I want to be happy that these tankers are "fighting back", but really its horrible to see such an exchange of violence over something that really just comes down to money.

This is what crossed my mind after watching this video: If every tanker company now forks over the pricey consultation fee to have an armed security team aboard. What targets will pirates eventually focus on instead? That would be us right?

Moderators, I apologize if the video breeches Sailnet's ToS, but its a whole new ball game with this incident and thought it was worth continuing the discussion here.


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## FormerAdministrator

Patient said:


> Hey everyone, I was just sent this video by a friend and thought I should share it here.
> 
> I am told this is the first documented case of an tanker that uses a security firm making contact with pirates, at least in video form.
> 
> Link: (Warning: Although not graphic, the Video involves shooting at pirates and is pretty intense.)
> 
> I am really on the fence about this to be honest. I want to be happy that these tankers are "fighting back", but really its horrible to see such an exchange of violence over something that really just comes down to money.
> 
> This is what crossed my mind after watching this video: If every tanker company now forks over the pricey consultation fee to have an armed security team aboard. What targets will pirates eventually focus on instead? That would be us right?
> 
> Moderators, I apologize if the video breeches Sailnet's ToS, but its a whole new ball game with this incident and thought it was worth continuing the discussion here.


thanks for posting. I'm a firm believer in the saying - live by the sword, die by the sword.


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## BreakAwayFL

Patient said:


> Hey everyone, I was just sent this video by a friend and thought I should share it here.
> 
> I am told this is the first documented case of an tanker that uses a security firm making contact with pirates, at least in video form.
> 
> Link: (Warning: Although not graphic, the Video involves shooting at pirates and is pretty intense.)
> 
> I am really on the fence about this to be honest. I want to be happy that these tankers are "fighting back", but really its horrible to see such an exchange of violence over something that really just comes down to money.
> 
> This is what crossed my mind after watching this video: If every tanker company now forks over the pricey consultation fee to have an armed security team aboard. What targets will pirates eventually focus on instead? That would be us right?
> 
> Moderators, I apologize if the video breeches Sailnet's ToS, but its a whole new ball game with this incident and thought it was worth continuing the discussion here.


Thanks for posting. It's about time these ships have some protection on board to defend themselves. You raise a very interesting point. However, keep in mind that small, private vessels have _already _been attacked in this part of the world a number of times over the past few years.

My answer to them would be: A. Don't sail there. It sucks but you could die. B. If you really have to or want to sail there, arm and protect yourself. Big ships crews get taken hostage most of the time (the ones that aren't killed in the assault), but the crews of (>50') pleasure boats have an almost 50% mortality when attacked by pirates in this part of the world in the past few years. (not an exact number just based off of my reading).

For pleasure cruisers, in this case - armed or not I say - just don't go there.


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## bljones

Is it just me,or does anyone else find that their deck-mounted .50 snags the sheets when tacking?


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## JonEisberg

BreakAwayFL said:


> It does not defeat the purpose. I don't need a gun when I'm in Hemingway Marina, Havana, for example.


Perhaps it's just me, but I hardly see the point of going to Havana if you're not gonna leave the confines of Marina Hemingway... You're not suggesting you'd actually entrust your family's safety to Castro's police whilst wandering around the streets of Havana, are you?



BreakAwayFL said:


> Once I depart Hemingway Marina, even if I am cruising Cuban waters, my firearm is returned to my possession. However, when I make port again, it will be locked up. This policy is made more simple by the fact that there are only a few legal ports of entry for a boat traveling to Cuba.


Unless things have changed drastically since I cruised Cuba, I think you're in for quite a surprise if you think their policy is "made simple" by virtue of the fact that there are relatively few Ports of Entry in Cuba...

You don't appear to understand that you will be required to check in and out with the Guarda EACH AND EVERY TIME you move your boat in Cuban waters... I have to assume your weapons would be taken from you for "safekeeping" every time you checked in with the Guarda... You are under their watchful eye continuously, they will likely dictate where you can and cannot anchor, for example, and any sort of dinghy exploration is generally prohibited... There are exceptions, of course, when you get into remote regions such as the Jardines de la Reina along the south coast, but for the most part each and every time you move your boat, it will be dictated by and subject to the jurisdiction of the Guarda...

Until you've experienced it, there's no describing the virtual paranoia of these officials... Your boat will be subject to routine "inspections" that will easily take an hour or more, each and every time you clear in and out of your next destination... They are obsessive about things like accounting for portable GPS units and outboard motors, I can't even begin to imagine how they would react to dealing with someone who had entered the country with weapons aboard... I can only guess such might complicate your experience to such a degree, you would wind up deeply regretting having decided to visit in the first place...



BreakAwayFL said:


> When I am in a nation that confiscates firearms, I am reliant on their law enforcement, for good or ill, to protect me. If I don't think that's safe enough, then I should not have sailed there. (and would not)
> 
> At sea, however, there is no local law enforcement. Just me and my family. I'm in charge of protecting them and myself at sea. I'll do so by whatever means necessary.


Forgive my ignorance of international weapons regulations, but how many countries out there would permit an American visitor to wander around within their borders while "packing heat" for personal protection?

You obviously don't trust American law enforcement for your personal protection while in the States... Just curious, but are there actually ANY countries out there that you would depend upon their law enforcement for your personal protection while in their country?


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## MedSailor

bljones said:


> Is it just me,or does anyone else find that their deck-mounted .50 snags the sheets when tacking?


They make a non-snagging model now. It's a must have for the foredeck:


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## Capt Len

Better to mount 'er on the binnacle right over the compass. That way you can change tacts much more quickly.


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## BreakAwayFL

JonEisberg said:


> Perhaps it's just me, but I hardly see the point of going to Havana if you're not gonna leave the confines of Marina Hemingway... You're not suggesting you'd actually entrust your family's safety to Castro's police whilst wandering around the streets of Havana, are you?


Yes, yes I would trust them, and would spend most of my time out of the marina. They zealously guard tourists, and will provide escort if requested to common destinations for extremely reasonable rates ($10 RT to anywhere in Havana for example). You will find incidents to be extremely rare, as the punishments to criminals are extremely harsh when foreigners are involved.



> Unless things have changed drastically since I cruised Cuba, I think you're in for quite a surprise if you think their policy is "made simple" by virtue of the fact that there are relatively few Ports of Entry in Cuba...
> 
> You don't appear to understand that you will be required to check in and out with the Guarda EACH AND EVERY TIME you move your boat in Cuban waters... I have to assume your weapons would be taken from you for "safekeeping" every time you checked in with the Guarda...


Exactly correct, I do understand, and why would I expect it to be different? I'm bringing a weapon into their national territory. I'm grateful that their policies allow me to do so, and will abide by them strictly.



> You are under their watchful eye continuously, they will likely dictate where you can and cannot anchor, for example, and any sort of dinghy exploration is generally prohibited... There are exceptions, of course, when you get into remote regions such as the Jardines de la Reina along the south coast, but for the most part each and every time you move your boat, it will be dictated by and subject to the jurisdiction of the Guarda...


More or less correct. By dingy exploration I'm assuming that you mean landing by dingy. Of course it's prohibited, as you aren't at an official point of entry. Trying to do so just because you are somewhere remote and might not get seen is just plain stupid.



> Until you've experienced it, there's no describing the virtual paranoia of these officials... Your boat will be subject to routine "inspections" that will easily take an hour or more, each and every time you clear in and out of your next destination... They are obsessive about things like accounting for portable GPS units and outboard motors, I can't even begin to imagine how they would react to dealing with someone who had entered the country with weapons aboard... I can only guess such might complicate your experience to such a degree, you would wind up deeply regretting having decided to visit in the first place...


It seems you are the one with paranoia, not them. They are doing their jobs. They make sure you aren't bringing anything illegal in, and they make sure that the equipment you arrive with is accounted for in case there are any issues later on.

Plenty of people arrive each year with weapons on board. Do some searching on other forums, or just Google. As far as regretting the visit; Your mind seems to be made up, so why would I try to convince you that it would be worth my time, when it obviously isn't worth yours?



> Forgive my ignorance of international weapons regulations, but how many countries out there would permit an American visitor to wander around within their borders while "packing heat" for personal protection?


Couldn't say, but I know Grand Bahama and Bimini require a check in of your gun and strict accounting of your ammunition quantities, but then allow you to retain your weapons and ammo. The only reason I know this is because my sail to there is much sooner, so I have already finished doing my homework. I would imagine if I'm 2 for 2 on my first trip then they aren't the only ones in the Caribbean who allow it.



> You obviously don't trust American law enforcement for your personal protection while in the States... Just curious, but are there actually ANY countries out there that you would depend upon their law enforcement for your personal protection while in their country?


I do trust American law enforcement officers, I think most of them are hardworking people trying to do the right thing. All of their good intentions, however, do me no good if I wake up to find someone in my house. The police don't do me any good a phone call and 10 minutes away.

Whilst wandering the streets and markets openly, I would trust many countries to keep me safe, but not all, i.e. Columbia, Haiti, Jamaica, some areas of Mexico, etc.

Being prepared and never having to utilize that which you have prepared for is not a failure, it is a success. Not preparing is unwise, and some would say foolish. However, it is your life to risk. I don't have to agree with your choice to sail unarmed and I might try to convince you otherwise, but in the end when you sail off - it is your life _and the lives of your crew_ in your hands.


----------

