# Toe rail: Replace existing mahogany, or go with aluminum?



## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

Howdy gents, another in a long series of questions you can expect from me over the next three months...

We have to replace the rotted toe rail, it currently is the oe mahogany, and it's shot. Obviously we have never done a toe rail, and we aren't sure of the difficulty of replacing it with either wood _or_ aluminum.

Cate ran across the below pieces of aluminum from WM, looks like it comes in 34' lengths (which would work for our boat). My thoughts and questions: Am I correct in assuming the metal toe rail would be virtually maintenance free? Does anyone know how hard it is to install? Does it conform (bend) to the hull shape easily? Can two greenhorns install it without needing to call out the national guard for rescue?

Would wood be more difficult to fabricate and install? I know wood looks _way_ better, but I really would consider the metal as it seems like a truly functional way to go. It would eliminate the current toe rail mounted block track, as you can use snatch blocks in any one of the holes on the aluminum, correct?

The bottom line is I would like to keep the wood if it is practical and something we can build and install ourselves without tearing our hair out.

Thoughts? Fire away..



A pic of what we have now


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

The slotted aluminum works very well... it does not need maintenance, it provides places to connect shackles, tie down items on deck, attach bungee cords, store halyards off the mast, etc etc.... but I think it's pretty pricey. Not sure just how easy it is to bend to shape, but obviously it's possible. Virtually all of them are through bolted as part of the hull/deck attachment scheme. I believe they are rarely added on after the fact.

The wood looks great but as you know requires upkeep. It's also not as easy to bend as you might think, and cleanly removing the existing is going to be a difficult job all on its own. On one of our first boats we removed a rotten toerail but had to change the way the original wood was oriented in order to have any hope of bending the new one into place. In the end it worked out OK but I would have preferred to have an aluminum one.

The only downside to the perforated aluminum rails is that they tend to leave unsightly stains as they oxidize and the rain water off the deck runs down the hull. If you keep ahead of it it's an easy clean, if you let those stains sit for a while they can be quite stubborn to remove. On a dark hull such as yours they would be less noticeable.

Whether you can use them or not will require a close look at the hull/deck joint construction, spacing of existing bolts, and the actual profile of the hull-to-deck surfaces. I noticed that the rail you posted has an outer rim that would cover the edge of the joint so perhaps that would work for you. But if there's no room to drill and install the new bolts it would be an iffy proposition.

Best of luck...


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

It would help if you said what kind of boat you're looking to install this rubrail on. Rubrails are usually installed as part of the hull-deck join, as Faster mentions, and retrofitting one can range from easy to a real PITA, depending on the design of the hull-deck join in question. 

Based on the photo you posted, I am guessing that your boat has either a shoebox or inward flange type hull-deck join, and if you've got decent access to the hull deck join area, then installing an aluminum rubrail might not be too bad. 

Faster's concerns about the fastener spacing and size, as well as the profile of the hull-deck surfaces are key. The fact that the aluminum toe rail has a lower flange is probably going to be an issue, since I don't believe it will fit on your boat with that lower flange in the way. Having an L-shaped extrusion would be better and give you a lot more flexibility in the way you place it, including allowing you to have the vertical portion inboard rather than outboard and make bending the toerail easier.


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## Gladrags1 (Apr 9, 2003)

I agree with what the previous poster said. I like the look of the wood and the functionality of the aluminum. The aluminum would need to be through bolted along it's entire length while you would only need to through bolt the wood at the track. So a key is how much access you have inside for washers and nuts. Depending upon the sharpness of the bends, you might have less trouble with the aluminum but you may need to make a clamping jig or long pipe clamp to pressure them around the curves. The wood might need some coaxing with strategically applied water to help it bend correctly, again using your job-made clamps. Don't forget with either material to use caulk (life-caulk not 5200) to keep water out of edgegrain of wood and help with structural adhesion for either. I'm thinking you might have an easier job with replacing it with wood simply due to the access under the toerail around the length of the boat. 
Once you remove the old material, you will get an idea of how the toe rail is presently installed. If installed with wood screw like I imagine, you might need to fill and fair to redrill the holes for best bite for the new screws. While it seems like a big, complicated job, breaking it down into segments will help it go smoother and you should enjoy the result. It's a very pretty boat.


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

sailingdog


> Based on the photo you posted, I am guessing that your boat has either a shoebox or inward flange type hull-deck join, and if you've got decent access to the hull deck join area, then installing an aluminum rubrail might not be too bad.


I am unfamiliar with these terms and what they mean regarding my hull-deck join, can you please elaborate on what to look for so I can identify what I have?



Gladrags1 said:


> I agree with what the previous poster said. I like the look of the wood and the functionality of the aluminum. The aluminum would need to be through bolted along it's entire length while you would only need to through bolt the wood at the track. So a key is how much access you have inside for washers and nuts. Depending upon the sharpness of the bends, you might have less trouble with the aluminum but you may need to make a clamping jig or long pipe clamp to pressure them around the curves. The wood might need some coaxing with strategically applied water to help it bend correctly, again using your job-made clamps. Don't forget with either material to use caulk (life-caulk not 5200) to keep water out of edgegrain of wood and help with structural adhesion for either. I'm thinking you might have an easier job with replacing it with wood simply due to the access under the toerail around the length of the boat.
> Once you remove the old material, you will get an idea of how the toe rail is presently installed. If installed with wood screw like I imagine, you might need to fill and fair to redrill the holes for best bite for the new screws. While it seems like a big, complicated job, breaking it down into segments will help it go smoother and you should enjoy the result. It's a very pretty boat.


I have really great access to all the bolts of the toe rail (it is thru bolted by the way). None of the bends seem that extreme, but I honestly don't know what would constitute a hard bend.

The w/m alum. toe rail is on sale for just under $700.00 for a 34' section (I'd need two), so it is pricey initially but maintenance free in the long run (I'd imagine). When you say I wouldn't have to thru bolt it all the length of it (a wood rail), how is this possible? It's currently bolted the entire length, and it seems like it would be "loose" where it was not bolted? I'd love to eliminate as many fasteners as possible, but I don't understand how I could achieve this in this application...?

I do plan on bedding with butyl tape instead of a curing product, I plan on bedding everything with butyl actually.

If going with wood, would you recommend shorter sections that would (I think) require less bending, or longer sections that show less seams and endgrain?


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Here are some examples of hull deck joints. This should help you to decide what would work for you if you can determine what you've got.

"C" is a 'shoebox' style, "D" is an outturned flange style.. etc. However your boat may be different from any of these.... The Irwin diagram shows the same aluminum rail you're thinking of... (but think bolts/washers/nuts instead of those little screws) I suspect this is similar to your hull/deck joint arrangement. I've found several A30 blogs touching on the subject..


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## baboon (Aug 7, 2008)

If your toerail is already through bolted along its entire length and the fasteners are as easy to get to as you say, I would go with the aluminum. Getting wood to curve is not easy and the cost of knot free clear teak or mahogany might be as high as the metal (I have only purchased small amounts of teak, but have been startled by the cost). I have had to bend wood for smaller projects, it always seems harder than it looks. You will have trouble getting wood the length of your boat, so scarf joints will be needed, which makes the bending even harder. 

Your maintentence concerns are real. The hardest thing to maintain on my 30 ft boat is the toerails. Remember they meet the deck on both sides of the rail, a total of 120 linear feet of wood to glass contact. This makes finishing, taping, cleaning etc an hours long chore on your hands and knees. The toe rails get the most abuse of any wood part of the boat, and therefore need the most attention. I would trade the look of wood for low maintenence metal any day. 

Hopfully someone with more experience with alumninum rail instalilation will chime in, I will follow with interest.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

chrisncate said:


> sailingdog
> 
> I am unfamiliar with these terms and what they mean regarding my hull-deck join, can you please elaborate on what to look for so I can identify what I have?


Faster has posted great illustrations of the different types of hull-deck joins, and yours appears to either be a shoebox join or a inward-turned flange, like the irwin has.



> I have really great access to all the bolts of the toe rail (it is thru bolted by the way). None of the bends seem that extreme, but I honestly don't know what would constitute a hard bend.
> 
> The w/m alum. toe rail is on sale for just under $700.00 for a 34' section (I'd need two), so it is pricey initially but maintenance free in the long run (I'd imagine). When you say I wouldn't have to thru bolt it all the length of it (a wood rail), how is this possible? It's currently bolted the entire length, and it seems like it would be "loose" where it was not bolted? I'd love to eliminate as many fasteners as possible, but I don't understand how I could achieve this in this application...?


You're going to have to through-bolt the toe rail at regular intervals, usually every 4-6" or so.



> I do plan on bedding with butyl tape instead of a curing product, I plan on bedding everything with butyl actually.
> 
> If going with wood, would you recommend shorter sections that would (I think) require less bending, or longer sections that show less seams and endgrain?


Just be careful in areas near the fuel fill, since butyl tape is damaged by long-term exposure to petroleum fuels. That's one reason I don't recommend it for bedding fuel deck fills. It will make doing this a lot simpler, since you don't have to worry about it curing before you are done.

BTW, if you haven't priced a wooden rub rail, I think you'll be rather shocked at the cost of a good mahogany or teak rub rail... the aluminum isn't that much more expensive overall, and the reduced maintenance will more than make up for it in the long run. Don't forget to use something to isolate the stainless steel bolts from the aluminum.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

If the hull/deck joint is the Irwin style then I really like the 'T' profile rail you've shown, it's going to cover the outer edge and make the whole thing look more finished right off the bat - it also guarantees the aluminum is the outermost piece (not necessarily the case with the top mounted "L" profile rail) making it a better 'rubrail' type of protection.

Using wood you'd definitely want longer pieces. Short bits would not bend as easily and you'd get a 'stop sign' effect at every joint. You really want to minimize the joints in any case to make the varnish more durable (joints are always tougher to keep sealed)

It's starting to look like you want to go with the aluminum - but make sure that if the the mounting holes are predrilled that they match your existing holes (unless there's room to go in between) and, perhaps more importantly, that the holes are inboard far enough to actually get the bolts and washers in without running into the inside hull surfaces.

With a crew you may be able to start the rail at one end (the end with the least curvature) bolt in the first two three, and maybe add some sort of clamp to hold it there for now, and then slowly push the rail into place for the next hole, etc etc, and manage the overall curve that way. However that will required some space alongside initially as the still-straight rail is going to want a lot of room until you form it. It would be interesting to know how the manufacturer's used to do it (nobody I know still adds those rails - cost issues, I imagine, but I think it's a backward step)


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## paulk (Jun 2, 2000)

The "T" extrusion looks good and is certainly strong. Faster mentions making sure that the mounting holes line up with the existing holes, which is a good point to help avoid leaks from unused holes. Using the same holes will be impossible if the flange that goes onto the deck isn't deep (or long) enough to reach in to where the existing holes are. Better measure. Twice. Depending upon the extrusion thickness, the "T" may also be more difficult to bend than an "L" There are lots of sources for rails, and Taco is not the only supplier. Based on the pictures of your boat above, it looks like you could start attaching the new rails at the stern and use the leverage of the rail itself to torque it into position, drill the next hole, caulk & fasten it, and so on. (It looks like the most curve is towards the stern, so that's where the leverage of unattached rail would be most useful.) Figure that it will take about three times longer than you thought to do this, because it will be better to do it right, once, than three times.


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## Hudsonian (Apr 3, 2008)

Some have fabricated toerails of star-board to provide a low maintenance replacement for wooden toerails. They may harmonize with the traditional design of your boat better than aluminum toerails. The star-board can be worked using standard woodworking tools. I've seen lengths successfully joined with "plated scarf joints" using the deck as the joint plate. If you Google "Star-board" and "plated scarf joints", you'll find descriptions of the tasks to assess whether your skills will allow sucessful completion of this task.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Hudsonian said:


> Some have fabricated toerails of star-board to provide a low maintenance replacement for wooden toerails. They may harmonize with the traditional design of your boat better than aluminum toerails. The star-board can be worked using standard woodworking tools. I've seen lengths successfully joined with "plated scarf joints" using the deck as the joint plate. If you Google "Star-board" and "plated scarf joints", you'll find descriptions of the tasks to assess whether your skills will allow sucessful completion of this task.


But starboard is not very strong as a structural material.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

I'd use the aluminum toerail. Starting at one end it should bend into place fairly easily. It will be much more useful than wood (or starboard which isn't a solution for everything) and won't have the issue of moisture under it as wood eventually does. The "T" section of aluminum toerail should bend as well as "L" section - it is the horizontal section that will resist bend the most, the vertical section should not resist much.


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## baboon (Aug 7, 2008)

I would like to hear from someone who has actually bent on a metal rail. The original posters boat and mine have a similar profile. Here is an alberg 30

The toe rail has a lot of curve to it compared to modern boats. I know it can be done, I just wonder how much work it really is. Perhaps builders pre-bend them on a form prior to bolting to hull. One worry is that the amount of force required to bend an L or T section profile over the fiberglass could cause damage to the boat. I do not know this, but aluminum is really stiff stuff.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

baboon said:


> I would like to hear from someone who has actually bent on a metal rail. The original posters boat and mine have a similar profile. Here is an alberg 30
> 
> The toe rail has a lot of curve to it compared to modern boats. I know it can be done, I just wonder how much work it really is. Perhaps builders pre-bend them on a form prior to bolting to hull. One worry is that the amount of force required to bend an L or T section profile over the fiberglass could cause damage to the boat. I do not know this, but aluminum is really stiff stuff.


Given the actual bend is fairly gradual over a fairly long distance, the forces required aren't all that high. Many materials that you would consider difficult to bend and stiff would make the bend along the hull-deck join on a boat with little trouble.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

There are no sharp curves, but a gentle bend over 35 or so feet. I doubt a builder would prebend the rail. They probably use a few people to hold it while others put bolts on.


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

Thanks for all the great input everyone!

I do appear to have the Irwin type hull to deck type construction, there might be a slight indent of 1/4 to (I doubt) 1/2 inch where the toe rail is bedded, I am still not sure and won't be until I pull a piece of the rail up and lay eyes on it. 

It seems to me that the aluminum rail would conform to the shape if I bolt either the forward or aft section on first, then just use the leverage the rail itself would provide by being so long (34'). I think I could just bolt one end down, then make the bend by pulling in one the opposing end, bolting as we go. What do you guys think?

Also, I made sure to look and verify that every single thru bolt is in a location that I can lay a wrench on, and they are (gotta love the Alberg). 

I wonder if heat would help in making the bends if needed? Bad idea? I could have a torch handy and apply heat as we make the bend and bolt as we go..

?


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

the other big questions is aesthetics I guess.. I certainly don't like the way the metal rail looks on a classic boat like mine, but functionality has to win out at the end of the day for what/where we wish to sail her someday soon.

I could paint it wood color I suppose....


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

chrisncate said:


> I wonder if heat would help in making the bends if needed? Bad idea? I could have a torch handy and apply heat as we make the bend and bolt as we go..


I do think heat would be a bad idea... it won't do the anodizing any good and may cause severe discolouration. As I indicated before, attaching one end and applying pressure with some friends as you drill/bolt your way along should do it.. but you'll need some space/clearance alongside as you deal with the exit angle and the sheer changes while you bend.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

chrisncate said:


> I wonder if heat would help in making the bends if needed? Bad idea? I could have a torch handy and apply heat as we make the bend and bolt as we go..
> 
> ?


Bad idea. Not only can it discolor the anodization, but if the aluminum is heat treated for strength, it will ruin the heat treatment and weaken it considerably.


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

Faster said:


> I do think heat would be a bad idea... it won't do the anodizing any good and may cause severe discolouration. As I indicated before, attaching one end and applying pressure with some friends as you drill/bolt your way along should do it.. but you'll need some space/clearance alongside as you deal with the exit angle and the sheer changes while you bend.


Makes total sense, thanks. I hate to be such a noob when it comes to all these things I have to tackle for the first time. I have read a lot on all the projects I need to get done, but being able to discus it with you guys gives me the kind of insight that really helps me understand a lot of what I have read. Thanks 

Next question: How do I bed using butyl tape while installing a metal rail like we are talking about? Specifically, should I make the bend, but leave the rail "up" two or three inches with the bolts going through the rail and deck, and place the tape all at once under the rail then tighten it down?

Should I make the bend, and then remove the rail completely to place the tape, then re install the rail at that point?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

chrisncate said:


> Makes total sense, thanks. I hate to be such a noob when it comes to all these things I have to tackle for the first time. I have read a lot on all the projects I need to get done, but being able to discus it with you guys gives me the kind of insight that really helps me understand a lot of what I have read. Thanks
> 
> Next question: How do I bed using butyl tape while installing a metal rail like we are talking about? Specifically, should I make the bend, but leave the rail "up" two or three inches with the bolts going through the rail and deck, and place the tape all at once under the rail then tighten it down?
> 
> Should I make the bend, and then remove the rail completely to place the tape, then re install the rail at that point?


You'll probably want to apply the butyl tape on the bottom of the rail *but leave the backing paper on it* until you're ready to bolt it down. Remove the backing paper three-to-six feet at a time, depending on how close the bolts are and how much the rail has to bend. That will help prevent you from getting butyl tape over everything. Make sure you get the grey or white butyl tape, not the black. The black can make a serious mess and is much harder to clean up after.


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

No heat needed.
Chris,
As the owner of a 27' boat with a teak toe rail/cap rail I can confess that I would love to install the aluminum toe rail you propose. Sure the wood looks good when it is maintained but it is nearly useless without installing padeyes/Beckets and what not as there is no way to attach a boom preventer or moving blocks to it. The aluminum rail is so much more useful that aesthetic concerns are overruled in my book. The problem I have is that our hull/deck joint on our Tartan 27' is flanged outward and there is no easy solution for me but maybe much easier for your boat.
For the record I have replaced several pieces of teak toe rail on our boat and have been lucky enough to find some pieces of 'rippings' of teak that only cost $5/board ft. instead of the $20+/bd. ft. it normally costs. And yes, longer pieces are better. You might also be surprised how easy it is to bend a flat extrusion like this (or a piece of wood) to the shape of a typical sailboat hull. 
If you miss the aesthetic of the wooden toe rail you could add a stripe that follows the lines just below the new rail and mimics the 'old' look. 
Best o' luck with this.
Do it right and do it once.


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

CalebD said:


> No heat needed.
> Chris,
> As the owner of a 27' boat with a teak toe rail/cap rail I can confess that I would love to install the aluminum toe rail you propose. Sure the wood looks good when it is maintained but it is nearly useless without installing padeyes/Beckets and what not as there is no way to attach a boom preventer or moving blocks to it. The aluminum rail is so much more useful that aesthetic concerns are overruled in my book. The problem I have is that our hull/deck joint on our Tartan 27' is flanged outward and there is no easy solution for me but maybe much easier for your boat.
> For the record I have replaced several pieces of teak toe rail on our boat and have been lucky enough to find some pieces of 'rippings' of teak that only cost $5/board ft. instead of the $20+/bd. ft. it normally costs. And yes, longer pieces are better. You might also be surprised how easy it is to bend a flat extrusion like this (or a piece of wood) to the shape of a typical sailboat hull.
> ...


Good idea, if I do wind up with the aluminum one (and it looks like I will), I am going to really try to do whatever I can to keep a traditional look to her. The stripe is a great idea, thanks.

So you seem to think it will bend fairly easy? I really hope so. When you think about it, and consider the lines of my boat, it does seem like it will work out pretty good (the bend I mean).

sailingdog:


> You'll probably want to apply the butyl tape on the bottom of the rail but leave the backing paper on it until you're ready to bolt it down. Remove the backing paper three-to-six feet at a time, depending on how close the bolts are and how much the rail has to bend. That will help prevent you from getting butyl tape over everything. Make sure you get the grey or white butyl tape, not the black. The black can make a serious mess and is much harder to clean up after.


Makes sense, do you think I should bend the rail and "fit" it, then remove it completely to apply the tape to the bottom of the rail, then reinstall the rail?

Or try to leave the rail on but loose and apply the tape with the bolts thru the rail but not bolted down and with a couple inch clearance height..

?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

chrisncate said:


> Good idea, if I do wind up with the aluminum one (and it looks like I will), I am going to really try to do whatever I can to keep a traditional look to her. The stripe is a great idea, thanks.
> 
> So you seem to think it will bend fairly easy? I really hope so. When you think about it, and consider the lines of my boat, it does seem like it will work out pretty good (the bend I mean).


It should bend pretty easily... you'll probably be surprised.



> sailingdog:
> 
> Makes sense, do you think I should bend the rail and "fit" it, then remove it completely to apply the tape to the bottom of the rail, then reinstall the rail?
> 
> ...


No, bend and bed it all in one step. The rail is likely flexible enough to fit and probably won't "set" in the bend that fits the boat. You should be able to apply the tape to the rail and then remove the backing paper as you're moving along and bolting it into place. Don't forget to put a "cone" of it around the head of each screw. A drinking straw is probably the easiest way to cut the holes for the bolts/screws to go through.

A cordless impact driver is going to be a really good thing to have along while doing this. It will be invaluable for removing the old toe rail and almost as useful for installing the new one.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

chrisncate said:


> Makes sense, do you think I should bend the rail and "fit" it, then remove it completely to apply the tape to the bottom of the rail, then reinstall the rail?
> 
> Or try to leave the rail on but loose and apply the tape with the bolts thru the rail but not bolted down and with a couple inch clearance height..
> 
> ?


You're going to have to use the hull/deck edge as a form to bend it.. and if you dry mount it and try again, it will likely spring back quite a bit and need coaxing back into shape again anyway (less, but still some)

I'm trying to picture the whole project, thinking of bedding not only the deck edge, but also the sideof the 'corner' under the lower half of the "T", all while having to force the rail in place.. Wondering if a spreadable bedding compoud would work out better, esp if you can pre-mask the edges (and the rail) to make cleanup easier down the road.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

You could use butyl on the deck section and Sika Flex 291 or similar on the hull section, masking below a predetermined line as posted by Faster. All the holes in the deck should be countersunk to create an "O" ring around each one as well.

As far as looks, I think you can get black anodized rail as well as silver. Might look better with the blue hull.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Faster said:


> You're going to have to use the hull/deck edge as a form to bend it.. and if you dry mount it and try again, it will likely spring back quite a bit and need coaxing back into shape again anyway (less, but still some)


Exactly my point.



> I'm trying to picture the whole project, thinking of bedding not only the deck edge, but also the sideof the 'corner' under the lower half of the "T", all while having to force the rail in place.. Wondering if a spreadable bedding compoud would work out better, esp if you can pre-mask the edges (and the rail) to make cleanup easier down the road.


No, butyl tape tends to be perfect for something like this since it doesn't actually cure, so you don't have a time limit to working with it. Cleaning up with butyl tape is pretty simple too, again because it doesn't actually cure, so it remains easy to clean up, even after a day or two, where a regular marine sealant or bedding compound has a very short working time in most cases.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

mitiempo said:


> You could use butyl on the deck section and Sika Flex 291 or similar on the hull section, masking below a predetermined line as posted by Faster. All the holes in the deck should be countersunk to create an "O" ring around each one as well.
> 
> As far as looks, I think you can get black anodized rail as well as silver. Might look better with the blue hull.


The one problem with the black anodized rail is that it tends to heat up a lot in the sun... more so than the silver, which reflects more of the sun and heats up less as a result.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

The problem as I see it is forcing the rail close enough to the hull to compress the butyl as the bolts are all vertical. I think it would be easier with Sika Flex. An extra person with a cartridge gun staying just ahead of the bolters should work.


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

sailingdog said:


> It should bend pretty easily... you'll probably be surprised.
> 
> No, bend and bed it all in one step. The rail is likely flexible enough to fit and probably won't "set" in the bend that fits the boat. You should be able to apply the tape to the rail and then remove the backing paper as you're moving along and bolting it into place. Don't forget to put a "cone" of it around the head of each screw. A drinking straw is probably the easiest way to cut the holes for the bolts/screws to go through.
> 
> A cordless impact driver is going to be a really good thing to have along while doing this. It will be invaluable for removing the old toe rail and almost as useful for installing the new one.


Nice, thanks 

I just happen to have a nice hitachi cordless (14 volt) impact that I use in my profession. The thing is _powerful_, believe me.. I will use that on the bolts to install (I have a light touch with it, no worries everyone - I won't destroy my boat with it..), but I think I'm going to have to cut off the oem bolts. They are 47 years old and have been painted over god knows how many times...

Here is a video from today, it's not long and you can see one of my awful oem chainplates, as well as some of the "underneath" where the bolts from the toe rail protrude into the cabin.






As for the coning on the screws, I plan to basically follow the excellent thread instructions about how to use butyl, from the butyl thread here in this forum. That thread made me aware that that stuff even exists. For the life of me I cannot figure out why _everyone_ does not use that stuff. It's awesome.

I really want to avoid using anything _but_ butyl (except around the diesel filler of course  ).


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

I just watched the video. What are your plans for the bow there the wood is currently under the stem fitting and how will you treat the deck edge across the transom?


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

mitiempo said:


> I just watched the video. What are your plans for the bow there the wood is currently under the stem fitting and how will you treat the deck edge across the transom?


Well, you don't see it in the video, but I have a bow roller that will be in place when all is said and done. I plan on replacing the wood you see under the stem fitting with pretty much the same exact thing you see there now, only in new mahogany.

The deck edge on the aft, for some odd reason, is oem but not rotted at all and (I believe) able to be nicely salvaged. So thats my plan, leave the aft wood and replace the bow wood, and add a functional aluminum toe rail.


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## kcbillb2 (Nov 26, 2010)

Nice video. I especially like how you caught the shadow in the beginning...

Good viewing of the through deck hardware. I'm, well, I will be once it warms up a little bit more here in Toto land, be rebedding pretty much everything per our own MaineSail's butyl instuctions...

Look for an order in the near Maine...

Bill


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Chrisncate--

You'd be surprised what you can remove with the right tools. Last summer, I helped disassemble the ports on a 40+ year old boat...all original hardware...and was able to get every single fastener out using an electric impact driver.


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

Well, looks like tomorrow we order the rails... pretty nerve racking stuff..


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

Here is a video I took today that shows the rail much better. Let me ask you guys: Since my rail is already loose and rotted, can I just knock it off with a 5 pound sledge (gently of course, I would knock it off like I was putting the green)? I took a preliminary stab at a few bolts today, it's going to be tedious and I wonder if knocking it off would be quicker and make the bolts easier to remove (as they would be loose with no wood attached to them)..

?


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

I would cut the toerail off between the bolts and then remove the bolts individually. If you belt them with a sledge you could damage the fiberglass where the bolts go through. You will have to fill the old bolt holes with thickened epoxy in any case but you don't want any unnecessary damage.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Once you're down to the bolts it may be easier to simply cut them than try to remove them... A zip blade might do it if there's not too much wood left around them. It will certainly be quicker.

Then you could just tap out the bottom halves with a punch.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

If the toerail is really in that bad a shape, take Mitiempo's advice and cut away most of it, as it will make removing the bolts easier. 


I like Faster's advice to cut the bolts and then tap out the remaining bits, but it usually isn't practical with stainless steel bolts. They're tougher to cut than to remove with a cordless impact driver.


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

mitiempo said:


> I would cut the toerail off between the bolts and then remove the bolts individually. If you belt them with a sledge you could damage the fiberglass where the bolts go through. You will have to fill the old bolt holes with thickened epoxy in any case but you don't want any unnecessary damage.


Makes sense. Honestly, I think I could lift off the rail with a hard yank in many spots. Cutting it away between the bolts makes sense. Thanks


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

sailingdog said:


> I like Faster's advice to cut the bolts and then tap out the remaining bits, but it usually isn't practical with stainless steel bolts. They're tougher to cut than to remove with a cordless impact driver.


A zip blade on a small angle grinder will cut that like butter.... and it's a one man job with no need to 'hold' a nut below at the same time!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Faster said:


> A zip blade on a small angle grinder will cut that like butter.... and it's a one man job with no need to 'hold' a nut below at the same time!


True, but not everyone has an angle grinder... Regular saw blades on stainless steel are just not worth it...


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Yes, but they are not very expensive. I purchased my angle grinder on sale for $19.95 new. Well worth it for the time and aggravation it saves.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

mitiempo said:


> Yes, but they are not very expensive. I purchased my angle grinder on sale for $19.95 new. Well worth it for the time and aggravation it saves.


No argument from me on that point. They're a nice piece to have in your tool kit, especially if you work on a boat a lot.


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## LakeSuperiorGeezer (Oct 8, 2010)

Try removing the bolts and nuts first. If the nuts come loose it will be a lot easier than trying to cut them and the wood between them. When working with power cutters and grinders, there is always the chance of a little miscalculation with damage to the underlying fiberglass, so go with the gentlest removal technique first. There’s probably not enough room to put an impact wrench on the nuts below deck holding the toe rail so you will have to use a deep socket with ratchet, maybe with a universal joint attached to the socket and an extension from that to the ratchet. Probably what will happen is the bolt the nut it is attached to will turn so you will have to break the toe rail wood away so you can get to the head of the bolt. If you want to cut the wood toe rail, I would not go all the way through to the underlying fiberglass, but cut close and then break away the wood at the cut so as to not take a chance on damaging the fiberglass with the cutter. You might consider a hack saw with a coarse blade as you will have more control, but it will be slower. If you have to cut bolts with a power cutoff tool, then I would say work below deck on the bolts where it is not as likely to show if you do slip. Another option is to break away the toe rail wood and then take a pair of bolt cutters to the bolt, which would be fast and unlikely to damage the fiberglass as with a power grinder where the bolt could twist around as you try to cut it with a grinder cutoff power tool. With the wood cut away, you could also try holding the bolt with Vice Grips and have someone work below deck with the ratchet and socket. I have never tried this, but maybe if you squeeze the toe rail wood with a Vice Grip, you could crush the wood enough to hold the bolt from turning where it runs through the wood and then remove the nut below deck. Try the non power tool approach first as it is safer for you and the boat, as well as being cheaper.


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

LakeSuperiorGeezer said:


> Try removing the bolts and nuts first. If the nuts come loose it will be a lot easier than trying to cut them and the wood between them. When working with power cutters and grinders, there is always the chance of a little miscalculation with damage to the underlying fiberglass, so go with the gentlest removal technique first. There's probably not enough room to put an impact wrench on the nuts below deck holding the toe rail so you will have to use a deep socket with ratchet, maybe with a universal joint attached to the socket and an extension from that to the ratchet. Probably what will happen is the bolt the nut it is attached to will turn so you will have to break the toe rail wood away so you can get to the head of the bolt. If you want to cut the wood toe rail, I would not go all the way through to the underlying fiberglass, but cut close and then break away the wood at the cut so as to not take a chance on damaging the fiberglass with the cutter. You might consider a hack saw with a coarse blade as you will have more control, but it will be slower. If you have to cut bolts with a power cutoff tool, then I would say work below deck on the bolts where it is not as likely to show if you do slip. Another option is to break away the toe rail wood and then take a pair of bolt cutters to the bolt, which would be fast and unlikely to damage the fiberglass as with a power grinder where the bolt could twist around as you try to cut it with a grinder cutoff power tool. With the wood cut away, you could also try holding the bolt with Vice Grips and have someone work below deck with the ratchet and socket. I have never tried this, but maybe if you squeeze the toe rail wood with a Vice Grip, you could crush the wood enough to hold the bolt from turning where it runs through the wood and then remove the nut below deck. Try the non power tool approach first as it is safer for you and the boat, as well as being cheaper.


Good post, thanks 

She _is_ laid up in Baltimore, perhaps if I put some sugar on the rail I can get the many cat sized wharf rats to simply gnaw it off for me...

Just ordered the toe rail btw... _that_ was a chunk o change...


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## Memopad (Jul 4, 2008)

Now you can spend a little more change and get toe-rail mounted stanchions! Open up your decks a little more and less holes in the boat. Win-win!


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## LakeSuperiorGeezer (Oct 8, 2010)

LakeSuperiorGeezer said:


> ... I would not go all the way through to the underlying fiberglass, but cut close and then break away the wood at the cut so as to not take a chance on damaging the fiberglass with the cutter. You might consider a hack saw with a coarse blade as you will have more control, but it will be slower...


It occurs to me that it would be best to make the wood cut near the bolt as possible, maybe even slanting inward some when you get past the head so that when you pry the wood away from the bolt, there will be very little wood to pull loose.


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## LakeSuperiorGeezer (Oct 8, 2010)

Or, take a hacksaw and cut diagonally through the wood and through the bolt. Do this with all bolts and just lift the toe rail off. You could use a saber saw.


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

Well, picked it up today. Here is what 34' of toerail strapped to a large Ford looks like:



YESSS... I _know_ it was illegal to have it overhang this far. I have been made _aware_..  I had to get it home though, I had no other option.

The crew at WM were mortified, but it's home now and I didn't impale any pedestrians (I'm pretty sure anyway, no pedestrian kabobs that I noted when we arrived home...)


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## Cruiser2B (Jan 6, 2011)

Looks like you almost have the proper curve in it.... . Good luck with the install!


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

Cruiser2B said:


> Looks like you almost have the proper curve in it.... . Good luck with the install!


Yes, that's what _she_ said...:laugher

On a less dorkish note on my part regarding the rail - I am happy to report that if anyone is curious, and now that I have actually held the rail in my hands, I can tell it will conform to the hull shape easily. You can't see it, but its wrapped with long pieces of wood for stability in transport, and it's still flexible.

I believe it's going to be a fairly easy project as long as I fair everything out properly on the hull first, and lay the butyl on the rail after an initial fit up.


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## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

LOL! Damn dude, that's scary! You should of asked me, I would've let you borrow my trailer! 

Here's our 30-something foot mast on the way home from upstate NY.


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

Nice, looks .... _professional_...

I only had to go 17 miles.. not so bad..


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## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

chrisncate said:


> Nice, looks .... _professional_...
> 
> I only had to go 17 miles.. not so bad..


*professional* is my middle name!


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## JimHill (Feb 25, 2011)

I would go with wood. If it is too hard to bend, you could laminate it in 2 layers, glued with epoxy. This will show a hairline seam along the center of the top of the rail. I would cover the edge of the deck with tape and wax paper, then glue, bend and clamp. When it dries, bed with rubber goop and bolt.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

You're late to the party Jim. He's already bought and transported a butt-load of aluminum toe rail.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

chrisncate said:


> Yes, that's what _she_ said...:laugher
> 
> On a less dorkish note on my part regarding the rail - *I am happy to report that if anyone is curious, and now that I have actually held the rail in my hands, I can tell it will conform to the hull shape easily. *You can't see it, but its wrapped with long pieces of wood for stability in transport, and it's still flexible.
> 
> I believe it's going to be a fairly easy project as long as I fair everything out properly on the hull first, and lay the butyl on the rail after an initial fit up.


Told ya so... toe rails and stainless steel 1" tubing are far more flexible over long distances than you'd think holding a short section in your hands...  Gotta agree that your transport method looked rather scary and you're lucky you didn't hit something with it.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

I just single-handedly removed the 12 bolts that hold my bow pulpit to the deck. The nuts looked very similar (maybe worse) to yours. Tools: A 4" long adjustable wrench to hold the nut, and a cordless drill with a torque clutch. That's all I needed! It would have been far even easier if I had some help to hold the wrench, or work the drill.

If you try this, make sure that the clutch is not locked (the graphic with the drill bit), but in a high torque position (20 on my drill). This allows the drill to slip, if necessary, and will prevent you from toasting the motor.

I would NOT use a sledge hammer under any circumstances. I would consider cutting the bolts off with a Swazall and a hack saw blade, but only if the above did not work.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

A cordless impact driver is even better than a cordless drill for this purpose...  And in many cases, you don't even need someone holding the nut on the other side.



eherlihy said:


> I just single-handedly removed the 12 bolts that hold my bow pulpit to the deck. The nuts looked very similar (maybe worse) to yours. Tools: A 4" long adjustable wrench to hold the nut, and a cordless drill with a torque clutch. That's all I needed! It would have been far even easier if I had some help to hold the wrench, or work the drill.
> 
> If you try this, make sure that the clutch is not locked (the graphic with the drill bit), but in a high torque position (20 on my drill). This allows the drill to slip, if necessary, and will prevent you from toasting the motor.
> 
> I would NOT use a sledge hammer under any circumstances. I would consider cutting the bolts off with a Swazall and a hack saw blade, but only if the above did not work.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

sailingdog said:


> A cordless impact driver is even better than a cordless drill for this purpose...  And in many cases, you don't even need someone holding the nut on the other side.


Yes, I know, and I have one. But mine is a 28V Milwaukee, and it's a monster (it's great for tire changing though)!

My point is that an impact driver is great, but not necessary (as long as your drill has a clutch) to preform this task.


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

LandLocked66c said:


> *professional* is my middle name!


And _danger_ is my mine..


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## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

Lets see some progress!


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

The next step will be to remove the old rail and glass over all the holes, then fair it out in preparation for the new rail.. in the mean time this past week we have unstepped the mast, dropped off the rigging for replacement, and this weekend I plan on getting onto the cutlass/stuffing box area.. 

I think the toe rail will probably be one of the later installs, as I want to install it over a freshly painted deck.. removal of the old is on tap though, that should be happening fairly soon..


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## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

Damn Chris! Did you plant some money trees? You're spending some serious coin my man!


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

LandLocked66c said:


> Damn Chris! Did you plant some money trees? You're spending some serious coin my man!


Yes, I am totally hemorrhaging cash as we speak, but this has been in the works for a little over a year (and our dream for much longer) and it was planned out and saved up for. Keep in mind this refit is the real deal for safe offshore work and practical world travel, and Heron will become our traveling home when it's all done.

I don't know if your reading our blog, but I haven't even mentioned here some of the other things that have been bought recently (the Norvane, new sails and new mast track come to mind.. ).

Once the refit is mostly done and we launch her and move aboard, we have one and a half to two years of working for a cruising kitty, while at the same time shaking Heron out with some serious local cruising mixed with coastal / light offshore practice..

This is our life, and we are _beyond_ committed to this. Obsession is a more accurate word...


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Chris

I have been looking at the Norvane as well. It looks well made and is not as expensive as some of the others out there. Keep us posted please - in a new thread probably - of how it works and any installation issues.


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## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

Remember that "i'm" the only person that reads your blog! 

Real happy for you guys. It must be a thrill to get serious about it and be living the process of fitting Heron out. I look forward to the same in the coming years. But I think we'll be building our home in the Exumas so that we have a destination to sail to. Then we can find a nicer boat to take us there!


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

mitiempo said:


> Chris
> 
> I have been looking at the Norvane as well. It looks well made and is not as expensive as some of the others out there. Keep us posted please - in a new thread probably - of how it works and any installation issues.


Oh, believe that every single project we do will be posted here for sure  . My hopes are to provide the best insight I can as we go, so others can benefit from our entire refit experience. A lot of stuff just isn't out there like you might think it is..

I should have the Norvane in about three weeks, but it won't be installed until Heron is in the water (2 or 3 months if all goes well). Without getting too far OT, I will say that Norvane was a pleasure to deal with, definitely A-1 so far. Very nice (British I think?) couple that run the place, and I think it's going to work very well from the research I have done.

It also looks rather snappy, which is a bonus (that and the low price).


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

LandLocked66c said:


> Remember that "i'm" the only person that reads your blog!
> 
> Real happy for you guys. It must be a thrill to get serious about it and be living the process of fitting Heron out. I look forward to the same in the coming years. But I think we'll be building our home in the Exumas so that we have a destination to sail to. Then we can find a nicer boat to take us there!


:laugher you and about eight others are reading it at this point.. I like to think of it as waaayy underground.. 

And thanks! It's very exciting to have this all going on... it's actually amazing to be doing it after so long "dreaming" about the day we could begin. Every day is filled with "boat" stuff, and our lives are completely consumed by everything we have to get done. It's awesome, and I think when we finally move aboard I will miss this time. It's so fun!

Kudos on your plans, sounds awesome! There is no finer lifestyle than the sailing one, _whatever_ path you make within it, imo..


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## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

chrisncate said:


> :laugher you and about eight others are reading it at this point.. I like to think of it as waaayy underground..
> 
> And thanks! It's very exciting to have this all going on... it's actually amazing to be doing it after so long "dreaming" about the day we could begin. Every day is filled with "boat" stuff, and our lives are completely consumed by everything we have to get done. It's awesome, and I think when we finally move aboard I will miss this time. It's so fun!
> 
> Kudos on your plans, sounds awesome! There is no finer lifestyle than the sailing one, _whatever_ path you make within it, imo..


Indeed!


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Chris, this may be a silly idea but why not contact Taco (the maker?) and ask them about installation questions? I would expect the simplest way to bend the rail to fit would be to start by securing it at one end, and then use a comealong or tie straps to "pull" it to the other side of the boat, until it was snug up against the side you were installing it on. Gentle pressure, hole by hole to make sure the cure matches up.

If you are going to cut off the old bolts--have someone below to catch them as you pop them out, otherwise you know they'll just find new places to hide in, and rattle around in the bilge.<G>

You might also want to ask Taco for some precise measurements, and then make up a two foot long dummy section (maybe they can send you a scrap) out of cardboard, so you can actually see if there will be fitting problems, how the holes will line up, whether there will be clearance issues, etc. Numbers are all well and good, but fitting a dummy "hands on" still has a role.


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## timebandit (Sep 18, 2002)

I know I late to the party but may I offer a few sugestions?

First try to remove the bolts by using a six point socket with the starting taper ground off so that it gets a better bite on the nut and and if you use a wrench remove the starting taper on it as well.
The impact driver is a great idea.

If you have to cut off the bolts use an angle grinder with a cut off disc and cut about half way down the wood and through the bolt at 90 degrees, use the wood to keep from damaging the boat.


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

Just an update, the toe rail removal is going to be easy (I think anyway). Compared to some of the other stuff I'm getting into, I look forward to when that project begins.



> If you have to cut off the bolts use an angle grinder with a cut off disc and cut about half way down the wood and through the bolt at 90 degrees, use the wood to keep from damaging the boat.


This is what I was thinking! Honestly, I think the rail will pretty much pull right off with barely any effort, but I'll cut the bolts off midway through the rail in all likelihood.


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

Toe rail is off...


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

I know you're upwind of it, but I'd still suggest a filter mask. Cheap protection for your lungs.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

It's been a couple of years, I'd love to see how the rest of the project went.


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