# How did you come to believe what you do about what boat is right for you?



## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

...


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## dhays (Jul 9, 2010)

I think it comes down to how the boat will be used. My cruising plans won't take me out of the relatively protected waters of the Salish Sea. Predominantly, it will be used by my wife and I. My wife isn't really a sailor, but she humors me with the boat. We wanted something comfortable for us. Most of the time the boat will be used for short trips, one or two nights. Yearly, we expect to be able to do 1 or 2 week trips. We sail year round in a moderate climate. Draft is seldom a problem in the deep waters here. Lack of wind is frequently a problem in the months with nicer weather.

Given all that, we decided on the Catalina 400. It is very comfortable for us and is easily single handed. It is plenty big for us and the occasional additional couple or our grown kids. It can easily handle the types of seas that we would normally see. It has a furling main for convenience. 

It is not the boat I would pick for other sailing grounds for for bluewater passages. It isn't the boat I would pick if I wanted to live aboard. However, for us, here, now, it is perfect.

Was that what you had in mind?

Dave


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## dhays (Jul 9, 2010)

chrisncate said:


> As a response? definitely.
> 
> Why wouldn't you live aboard her? A 40' Catalina is huge (from my perspective of course). What's she missing for l/a capability?


Yup. The C400 is a big boat. However, for all it's size it doesn't have much storage, whether it be for food, clothes, etc... There are smaller boats that have more storage. It also has two heads, not something I would chose for a live aboard. That is a lot of room wasted for the most part. The size makes it comfortable to spend time on, but it just isn't laid out well enough for l/a. At least in my opinion. Others obviously might disagree.

Dave


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## MikeinLA (Jul 25, 2006)

I sail a coastal cruiser, but I have narrowed down the qualities I would want in a bluewater cruising boat. It must be easy to singlehand with an aft cockpit and a palatial aft cabin with those neat little windows in the transom. It must be heavily built but with good speed to outrun a storm. It must have massive fuel and water tankage with plenty of storage space below. A simple rig with mizzen mast. Finally, it must have a solid teak interior and lots of teak topsides that requires no varnish to remain shiny and, finally, teak decks that will never leak.

Which is why I'm still sailing my Catalina 36. Methinks I have a bit more "narrowing" to do. 

Mike


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

dhays hit the nail on the head with his first sentence. Knowing how the boat will be used. I would also add, knowing yourself. It's easy to dream, but much harder, in a sense, to live the dream. And the bigger the dream, the harder it is for it to be what you dream.

In my case, I wanted to retire early, and live on a boat. Once I reached that decision, then I had to ask myself just what I was going to do with the boat. I knew I wasn't going to circumnavigate, and most likely, wouldn't even cross the Atlantic. I didn't though rule out a Pond crossing. So basically, I wanted a good coastal cruiser for the East Coast, Bahamas and Keys. I didn't want to go over 32-35 feet, as I wanted something I could manhandle at the dock. And, I wanted something that could stay away from shore for up to a month or so.

With those parameters in mind, I started what became a 3 year search that put the Ontario 32 at the top of my list. A choice I'm still happy with.


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## wingNwing (Apr 28, 2008)

Our desires were similar to John's - we wanted a liveaboard coastal cruiser, particularly for warm locations - we had little interest in Maine, for example, and a Bahamas/Caribbean goal. It needed storage and tankage for long-term living, needed to be small enough for us to move around ourselves, and needed to be within our cash budget because we were unwilling to take on a loan. To meet that budget, we wanted an older boat that we could refit ourselves, with our choices of systems, over a few years. A good friend who was an excellent sailor helped us make a 'short list.' After 10 years fulltime aboard, we are still in love with our choice.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

It changes as we age 

My wife of 30 years and myself started with and 11' race dingy as we had ZERO money and it was free

Pretty soon we were doing much better and did not want wet butts 100% of the time and bought the Victoria 18 as the 2' draft suited the great south bay and the very steady wind direction made its up poor upwind abilities a small issue

Then we moved to Peconic Bay and the 18' boats poor upwind ability and the much rougher water made the boat a misery and we started seeing these strange flush deck things flying by us up wind 


They turned out to be J24s and when your 26 years old four full berths and a potty is a cruising boat and went all over the east end doing weekends with four adults till it was children time 


Went sailboat less for some time due to life 

Went back to a J24 and had some fun and while at 55 are fitness level was not an issue on the boat most of the people we wanted to take sailing we not up to the moving around the boat required and the quest for the Cal 29 begin which has prove to have been a great pick as everybody likes it and comes back for more


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## SailKing1 (Feb 20, 2002)

I'm still looking for that boat to fill my live aboard needs at retirement. At one time I thought I had it narrowed down to a couple of choices. Over the last 3 years (since selling my last boat) I have had the opportunity to sail on a number of boats helping with deliveries. This has opened my eyes to other options i had not considered and, closed my eyes to some others. For me at this point major considerations are tankage, storage and size. Size being large enough to be comfortable and small enough to single-hand. I am thinking 35 - 37 would be best for me. I am leaning more towards older classic line boats, solid and well built. I also will want to do a refit myself before starting my adventures as I think getting to know your boat personally is important. 

So, to answer your question, I'll let you know when I find it.


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## wingNwing (Apr 28, 2008)

Dhays' very first sentence says it all - how will the boat be used? First, you have to know yourself, then make your list of priorities, then look at tradeoffs among existing boats. Are you asking, how that list was developed? We sacrificed the seaworthiness of flush decks in favor of what is now called "deck salon" because we knew for a few years we'd be living aboard in winter at a dock and light in the cabin was going to be a big issue. We sacrificed performance for shoal draft, because we were Bahamas and Chesapeake-bound.  

A friend has a large boat with lots of teak and lots of varnish ... but he charters it so the additional cost and over-the-top amenities that would drive us crazy, are part of his cost of doing business.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

We knew we had the right boat when we couldn't find a better boat to trade up to.


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## wingNwing (Apr 28, 2008)

chrisncate said:


> To be clear - I AM NOT JUDGING ANYONE,


Chris, granted its easy to misinterpret when all you've got to convey tone and body language is electrons, but your wording makes me think you are, in fact, judging them. So on the off chance that this was an honest mistake, I'm going to point out two places where you could have left out a few words, not changed your meaning one bit, and softened that impression. (Just my opinion, but I've been paid to write for virtually all of my adult life.)



chrisncate said:


> The s/v Triumph story has really got me thinking a lot about the range of boat philosophies within our little sub culture, and just how much range there is out there in what we believe makes the perfect cruising yacht.


This makes total sense, and is totally neutral until:



chrisncate said:


> (granite? in a _boat_? wow),


Granite in the boat worked for them. If you're truly not judging, then why is their choice an issue to you? Why mention it at all? There's more than a whiff of disapproval in your "wow" and your meaning would not have been affected had you not said anything.



chrisncate said:


> To be clear - I AM NOT JUDGING ANYONE, especially Triumph


,

Mentioning them yet again? You protesteth too loudly, methinks.

The question you've raised is an interesting and valid one, and I'm looking forward to the discussion. Minus the snark.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

bl makes another good point, that ties in with SailKing, though it can be somewhat moot if you only have "one shot" to get it right. All the research in the world won't guarantee making the right choice, so the more chances you can get to be on different boats, the better off you'll be.

In the end though, it is YOUR boat, and it should be a boat that makes you happy with it ... no matter what any one else may think.


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## Boasun (Feb 10, 2007)

I knew that the S/V Rapture was for me when I took a nap on her while the surveyor was doing his job. It felt like home.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

There are many reasons people chose one boat over another. We've owned a LOT of boats and all did exactly what we expected of them. I also have worked on / sailed on hundreds and all these boats have pluses and minuses, even the Able's, HR's, Hinckley's & Morris'. I've yet to come across the stereotypical "perfect boat"...

There is never the "perfect boat", it does not exist, but there is always a NEXT boat....


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## Sublime (Sep 11, 2010)

Picking out a boat is much like picking out a spouse. Maintenence, how much complaining you can tolerate from the boat, how much money it requires you to throw at it, time comitment to keep said boat happy, requirements on where the boat will reside most of the time, etc. 
What works for one may not work for another. 

Me and my boats...we cool. *gang sign*

Ugh, it's slow at work today.


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## fryewe (Dec 4, 2004)

Great question, Maine.

Thirty years ago when I decided sailing was a passion I had to fulfill, I took the classes I needed to get experience and started looking for a boat in Southern California. During one of my walks on the piers at Mission Bay, I saw a Norsea 27. I did some research on her, and came to the conclusion that I couldn't afford one.

But after I saw her, I knew I would always want a Norsea. She fits all my needs:
- She was the right size for me to single hand with a simple hank-on sail plan and ground tackle I could handle manually.
- She was strongly built for heavy weather, relatively fast in light to moderate breezes, with the scantlings to take care of a relative beginner like me.
- Her systems were simple, and I knew I could understand them, do the preventive and corrective maintenance on them that would be needed (too little money to hire things done, plus I hate depending on others for things I can do, and I don't like being disappointed when I pay for quality work and get less than that).
- I knew I would be more likely to take good care of her because Norseas are absolutely beautiful boats.
- She had enough room for comfortable living with basic amenities for long duration sailing and cruising, and perhaps for living aboard.
- She was trailerable without safety escorts, reducing the cost of moving her when the Navy rolled me to a new assignment every two to three years.

I knew I would develop an unbreakable attachment to whatever boat I would eventually own, so it would likely be the only boat I would ever own. I waited two years until I could afford a Norsea. She has been all I expected her to be.


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## CaptainForce (Jan 1, 2006)

The best evolved plans suggest that form follows function; however, having lived aboard the same design boat for 38 years, much of our choice may be our adaptation to the vessel. Our first two years aboard were on a Sparkman & Stevens designed fin keel performance boat, but we fell into cruising the shallow sands and muds of the Southeast US & Bahamas and raising two children aboard. We selected a shoal draft with a long keel contiguous with the rudder and a wide beam,- a strong protected underbody without a design that snags crab & lobster pots. Strong simple systems, exterior chainplates, and big interior space has served us well. Also, our spit rig allows us access under a munber of 55' fixed bridges that provide some easy passage alternatives and safe inland hurricane holes. We're often in Maine for the summer only and back to Florida in the winter. Few frills, but much function. Take care and joy, Aythya crew


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## jrd22 (Nov 14, 2000)

You clearly have to know two things IMO 1. What you KNOW you are going to do with the boat. 2. What you HOPE to do with the boat. Sometimes they are diametrically opposed to each other either because of finances, time, experience, etc. So in the end a lot of boats (most?) are a compromise between reality and fantasy. My own boat is a good example; I sail the Salish Sea for about two months (most years, I don't want to talk about this year) full time during the summer and the rest of the year short trips and day sails. We will be going to Alaska at least once and hopefully the Queen Charlotte Islands. These are the knowns, and given my experience here in the PNW I wanted a pilothouse with an inside station. I also do not like limits, so I didn't want a boat that would not be capable of crossing oceans if I decided that, as I get older, I really don't enjoy a cold climate as much as I used to. So I ended up with a boat that is fully capable of doing, and in fact has done, the PNW to South Pacific trip and back. Huge storage, large water and fuel capacity, I've added solar, etc, etc. Will I ever head out Juan de Fuca and turn south? I honestly don't know, but I like the feeling that if I wake up one morning and decide to go the boat is ready (well, almost ), but in the meantime it does everything we want and need.
And we don't have granite countertops, just marble for the sink in the head


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## dhays (Jul 9, 2010)

chrisncate said:


> So if things were as exactly as you'd like them to be, what's boat would fit your cruising ideal?


Not sure what you mean. For us, for how we use the boat, the C400 *is* our ideal cruising ideal. I have no idea what boat we would want if we lived and sailed in another area and used the boat differently.

Dave


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## dhays (Jul 9, 2010)

PBzeer said:


> bl makes another good point, that ties in with SailKing, though it can be somewhat moot if you only have "one shot" to get it right. All the research in the world won't guarantee making the right choice, so the more chances you can get to be on different boats, the better off you'll be.


I think this is true of most any purchase. Regardless of the amount of research and testing you do, there will always be surprises, good and bad. Example, the C400 is a great boat with lots of headroom. However, it wasn't until we actually spent a lot of time on board that we realized the aft head has much less headroom than the forward head. Since both my wife and I are tall, this is an inconvenience that we really didn't think about until after we had spent some time on board. The point is that the more experience you have the with the boat beforehand the fewer of these surprises you may encounter.

Dave


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## NCC320 (Dec 23, 2008)

A couple of thoughts:

I believe most people looking for the perfect boat, especially where they do not have lots of actual sailing experience, tend to overdo the exercise, and often wind up frustrated. Unless you are going immediately offshore for extended cruises, you don't have to find the ultimate, perfect bluewater boat. In the first place, it doesn't exist. Like most things in life, your boat, whatever it is, will be a compromise. Just get a boat, and enjoy it now. Worry about crossing seas later. Your perceptions are likely to change as you gain experience on the water. 

Everyone trashes Macs, Catalinas, Beneteaus, and Hunters. But take a second look. These boats and manufacturers have survived over the years in large part because they realistically know what works for most people. And while each of us is different in our dreams and plans, most of us really fit into that category "most people".

The Macs have carved a place for entry level, trailable boats. Built inexpensively, and generally light weight, they allow lots of people to get on the water. My first boat was a Mac Venture 24. No, it wasn't up to the standards of the more expensive brands of boats at the time. But you know, it did what I wanted it to do, never failed, and went on to spend a good number of years with the next owner. Had it not been for MacGregor, I would have had to wait years before I could have afforded a new boat. But there was always the cringe factor because people snubbed their nose at that brand...they still do. It's too bad because it takes away lots of the fun and enjoyment that would otherwise be possible for the owners.

Over the years, I heard people trash Catalina and Hunter, and later Beneteau, all the while, these three were growing and selling lots of boats. Meanwhile, a good many of those "blue water" can take anything boat manufacturers were falling along the wayside. In time, in the 1990's, I began to think about buying a new sailboat. I wanted new and my budget meant I could not even consider a Morris or other high end boats, but by stretching a little, one of the big three would work. But in the back of my mind, there was still some cringe factor and doubts....were the Catalinas, Hunters, and Beneteaus really up to the job. Like many of you, I read and heard the recommendations of others. Go for the rugged "bluewater" boats....but you'll have to buy used and spend hours and hours, and thousands of dollars "upgrading" (i.e. fixing) it for sailing. 

In 1993, Catalina came out with the C320. I looked at the large cockpit and turned up my nose....real boats, bluewater boats, had small cockpits and used that additional space (in a cabin) for storage, water, fuel. In 1999, I still hadn't found the perfect boat that I could afford. I decided that if I was going to get one, late model or new, it had to be a big three item. Decided on the C320, nice wide decks, large cockpit, wide stern, etc. I love the boat. It does everything I want it to do. It's well thought out. It's good looking. It sails well. And that too large cockpit....it's great. So much better than those cramped little cockpits on bluewater boats. The point being, in all this, is that the designers and builders of those boats have learned a lot over the years, and they apply this knowledge to the boats. They knew better than I did what would really work. 

And the cringe factor. It doesn't bother me any more. I have come to realize that most of those critics don't know what the heck they are talking about anyway. 

And bluewater qualification.....a final thought....what qualifies has and will continue to change over time. Think about it. Look at what was bluewater in the late 1800's, then the 1900's before fiberglass. Then in the 1960's,70', 80's. Look at the boats that are currently used for ocean racing...look at the sterns for example and compare that with your bluewater ideas. Everyone says these are race boats where things are compromized for speed. Yes, but look at the harsh treatment that these boats get in the Southern Oceans. Your typical cruiser will never be subjected to such abuse. Just be assured, that whatever technologies are developed in these boats will in time be adopted to the next generation "bluewater" cruiser. So those designs that you pass over that you judge are not "bluewater" may in fact really be the current bluewater designs...people just haven't come to recognize it yet.


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## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

Not to be Glib, but the perfect boat is the one that gets me out on the water....It could be a kayak..or a canoe. There's two things that I need to maintain my sanity..getting out regularly on the water..and the ability to Hike in a forest..alone.

Having said that..I sailed on my current boat as crew for 10 years before I purchased it.
it met my criteria: 

Shoal draft- 3'11" to be able to cruise the U.S. east coast and get into all the little back bays.

Mast Height- 50' - capable of getting under most fixed bridges from here to Fla.

Fun to sail...for a day, a week, or a month..and maybe longer.

Cabable of at least short blue water runs... she's been to Bermuda, and from Maine to Florida.

Capable of standing up to a blow..without falling apart...She's held up in more than one blow.

Quality Build.

Small enough to single hand comfortably. 

Affordable.

Shortcomings: Tankage for extended cruising, Battery Bank is somewhat limited..with no current way to re-charge without running the engine ( solvable) a few other minor things.

Is it my dream boat? probably not, but, I treat it like it is..and in return it gives me alot of pleasure. 

What's the old song... " Love the one you're with"


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

chrisncate said:


> What galvanized your cruising philosophy? Would you ever change it one way or the other?


More than any other single element, our respective budgets define the boats we sail&#8230; And my budget is likely tighter than most of similar means, for it has always been informed by something I once heard my father say to my older brother, at a tender enough age that I had no idea what it meant at the time&#8230;

Something so laughably Old School, and downright Un-American, it simply sounds quaint to the legions who live their lives today on The Layaway Plan:

"Never, _EVER_, finance a _toy_&#8230;"

Other than my home, I've always paid cash for everything I've ever bought&#8230; So, I'm certainly not about to start writing another check each month, for something as frivolous as a boat&#8230; And, since I would NEVER sell my home to trade up to a boat to take off cruising, my choice in a boat was somewhat limited&#8230;

Classic Plastic was the way I went, got a sweet deal on one with a great design pedigree, and reputation for a solid build, and threw a lot of sweat equity into her, along with steady infusions of cash&#8230; Very rewarding project, I know the boat inside/out, which is worth a LOT&#8230; She's a very sweet sailer in a breeze, heavy displacement makes he more comfortable offshore than many modern boats considerably larger, and she's capable of taking me pretty much anywhere I'd like to go&#8230;

Sure, I'd prefer her to be a bit bigger, wish I could stick her in some sort of "enlarger", and stretch he out to about 38 feet&#8230; But, the older I get, the more I appreciate her modest size, most of the boats I deliver these days, frankly, start scaring the hell out of me when the breeze gets up around 30, and it becomes painfully apparent how incapable I would be in dealing physically with the loads and forces involved, if things start to break&#8230;

As a do a lot of singlehanded sailing beyond the typical coastal areas most insurers cover, I also need a boat that I could afford to lose&#8230; Sure, it would suck if I lost my boat on the rocks in Labrador, or a reef off Roatan, but it wouldn't devastate me financially, I'd simply have to start over again with something similarly modest&#8230;

I really enjoy sailing, so the sailing abilities of a boat are of paramount importance to me&#8230; I think the one question cruisers really have to ask themselves re boat selection, and be brutally honest in doing so, is: Do I really love SAILING, or do I simply like the IDEA of sailing? That will help you better define whether a boat designed from the outside in, or one designed from the inside out, will better suit you&#8230;

And, for those that really do love to sail, that's another argument in favor of a more modest, manageable size&#8230; A lot of the larger boats I get to sail, can be pretty boring to sail, frankly&#8230; Nothing you do seems to make much _difference_, it can be pretty difficult to detect sometimes a measurable improvement as a result of playing with trim, for example&#8230; So, after awhile, you simply begin to lose interest in playing with strings that is such a big part of the challenge and enjoyment of sailing a boat well&#8230;

And finally, there is the notion of simplicity vs. complexity&#8230; We've certainly come a long way from the notion of what makes a proper cruising boat, as voiced by E.B White, or Nathaniel Herreschoff in THE COMPLEAT CRUISER&#8230; I come from a tradition where I view a cruising boat as akin to a lakefront cottage in the Adirondacks, for example - simple, modest, perhaps even somewhat spartan, but with a distinctive charm that makes it entirely unique, and different from an ordinary home, and still containing everything one really needs&#8230; But today, so many people seem to need to Have It All, and are heading off in boats that are more akin to McMansions in the suburbs, needlessly large and complex&#8230; Again, many of the boats I deliver are so ridiculously complex, cruising on them full time could be a monumental headache, I sometimes have all I can do to simply get them through a delivery&#8230; IMHO, that's the single biggest reason many people quit their cruising dream sooner, rather than later, is they simply get worn down by the endless hassle of maintaining the array of systems on some of these absurdly complex boats out there&#8230;

Complexity is the ultimate trickle-down, often breeding further complexity, or the classic chain of cascading failure&#8230; Take steering, for example, there's nothing simpler than a tiller&#8230; And, there's no better self-steering system for passagemaking, IMHO, than a windvane coupled to a tiller&#8230; Hook one up to a wheel, suddenly becomes considerably more complicated, and usually less effective&#8230; But, most folks prefer wheels, despite all their potential failure points, and wind up going with electronic Black Box autopilots that very few sailors are capable of repairing at sea&#8230; So, then perhaps you need to carry a spare&#8230; And, of course you need to come up with a way to generate the power to feed the autopilot&#8230; And then, you need the noise-cancelling headphones if you're trying to sleep in the aft centerline Queen berth while the autopilot grinds away beneath your pillow&#8230; And so on&#8230; In the end, there's a lot to be said for old-fashioned gizmos like tillers&#8230; (grin)

Just because there's lots of glossy magazines out there about it, the cruising or liveaboard life certainly isn't for everybody&#8230; I don't care what size boat you're sailing (within reason, of course), if you still don't enjoy a regular dose of "roughing it", chances are you're not really cut out for the cruising life, at least for the longer term&#8230;

Your mileage may vary, as always...


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## CaptainForce (Jan 1, 2006)

JonEisberg said:


> ................Other than my home, I've always paid cash for everything I've ever bought&#8230; So, I'm certainly not about to start writing another check each month, for something as frivolous as a boat&#8230; And, since I would NEVER sell my home to trade up to a boat to take off cruising, my choice in a boat was somewhat limited&#8230;............


These wise words for some, lose their meaning among others. This emphasizes why these answers don't apply in the same manner to all of us. For the original poster and myself our boats are our homes and they are far from frivolous. Take care and joy, Aythya crew


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## junkrig (Jun 3, 2011)

Greatly appreciate JonEisberg's post.

The choices I made in life left me earning but little. I was a working man. I doubt if I could afford 2% of the boats owned by SailNet members. That's one factor.

Jon is also right about money, although I word it differently: I like to buy on the easy one-payment plan.

The closest salt water to here is Chesapeake Bay. It's about 1500 miles. The Gulf is about 1750. The Pacific is Far.

I taught myself to sail on an original Sea Snark, Styrofoam with no plastic skin, back in the early '70's. Went on to teach myself a 17' sloop, but then...

Took a turn onto the river where sailboats don't work. Went out on power boats on the Mighty Missouri, became a Master on the Western Rivers, until I got homesick for sailboats.

By this time most of my friends with sailboats, especially those who were five or ten years older than me, were selling their boats because they no longer had the physical strength to handle a tack, to trim a sail, or to furl a main. And this on a very large lake, where tacks are more frequent, waters less spacious than open ocean. Elbows, shoulders, knees... getting old is not for the faint of heart. 

I ran afoul of a contrarian group, the junk rig sailors of the world, who claimed that it was easier to tack, easier to jibe, easier to trim, reef, and furl one of those giant venetian blinds they called the Junk Sail, than it was to handle the pointy white triangles that rule the oceans of the world, so I built myself a little junk boat to try out. By my standards it was true.

So my criteria became: Beautiful in my eyes. Preferably already rigged as a Junk Rig so I didn't have to do the conversion. Portable, so I could at least dream of taking it to salt water from time to time. Big enough to stay in, maybe even live in, small enough to care for. Raggedy enough that I could afford it. I know that many say don't buy a fixer-upper, but it's all I've ever had. Why not another? As I said earlier, that's the life I chose.

Seablossom is a 1980 Nor'Sea 27 aft cabin, junk rigged, with a 3-axle galvanized trailer. Boat and trailer weigh 10,750 pounds and my 2005 Dodge Diesel pulled her home from California across the mountains. She'll tow with no permits. She'll fit on Stockton Lake; she's been to Fiji. Interior is scruffy, but she passes a survey with flying colors.

I haven't had her long. I hope I continue to be glad I made this purchase, because the odds of me affording another one aren't that good.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

A properly found and maintained boat is almost always going to withstand more than it's crew is capable of.

You choose the boat that's right for you, not for someone else. Otherwise, eventually, you'll be dissatisfied with the experience. Just as there is no perfect boat, neither is there a perfect cruising philosophy. Life is about enjoying it, not just surviving it.


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

Quote: "Granite in the boat worked for them. If you're truly not judging, then why is their choice an issue to you? Why mention it at all? There's more than a whiff of disapproval in your "wow" and your meaning would not have been affected had you not said anything."

Just couldn't stay out of THIS!

Folks we LIVE ABOARD, (or at least did when we installed the granite.) That is to say, the galley and the 2 heads were our HOME. So, why NOT make your home as nice as you can? Why NOT have a washer / dryer onboard? Why NOT have all the conveniences and comforts as listed on our web site which we had on the Triumph? Triumph Charters -- Sail with Us! Why not?

Most of the people I've heard mumbling about these features are just rationalizing for that which they can't have, for whatever personal reasons.

By the way, after installing the second battery bank, (an additional (6) 100 lb batteries) in the crew's quarters, which is on the starboard side, the additional weight of the granite on the port side (galley and bow head) was appreciated!

Another reality is that we had a 50 footer; so it isn't a big deal to add the standard conveniences of our times and our society, since the boat could take these larger items onboard without any issues.

Given a 30 something foot boat, a washer & dryer, granite counters, 2 banks of house batteries, 4 large solar panels, etc., etc., could easily be impossible to install.

So, rather than mask your personal limitations with negative judgements, go in the healthy direction, (at least the way your WIFE would LOVE to hear from you), and ask how you too can have what most of the world enjoys. Work TOWARD these things as goals in life instead of calling them bad things, and life will amazingly improve!

We're adults now, and are empowered and qualified to have washers / dryers, granite, large screen TVs, etc.

I really would not look forward to using my dinghy to bring the laundrey in and out; especially in bad weather! Can't you just see the clean loads getting somehow soaked on the way back...?! Why live like that?

And boy did that granite look GREAT!

Try it before you eschew it; most people DO live like this, even if you don't.


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## dhays (Jul 9, 2010)

chrisncate said:


> How are some of you so certain it's best to go for the boat that's suited for where you plan to be? What if you find yourself somewhere else you didn't expect too? Also on my mind regarding our boat was the changing climate (whether man made or not - _puhleez_ let's not get into the politics of climate change, as it would be a massive derailment me thinks  - let's just agree that _whatever_ the reason, the climate is different and more volatile these days...) - more frequent and violent weather all across the planet, etc. Do the same rules as even a decade ago regarding boat strength and weather handling capabilities still apply? I of course ask this respectfully to all involved in the thread, I am truly interested in your insights on this topic as we are almost done with building said weather boat...
> ?


If you take a look at a chart of the PNW, you will notice that the Salish Sea encompasses about 7000 sq miles of water from the Northern End of the Straits of Georgia to the Southern end of Puget Sound. Other than the Juan de Fuca Straits, it is protected from the Pacific Ocean. This is my cruising ground. I don't ever expect to leave here.

Yes, the Straits get bad weather and rough seas. Both Georgia and Juan de Fuca can be treacherous. However, good weather forecasting is available so one never really has to venture out into the unprotected water in truly bad weather. Because of this, I feel a coastal cruiser is perfect for this area.

I certainly understand those that like a rugged bluewater boat, even if they never will venture beyond the Swiftsure Bank. However, in many ways that is akin to those urban dwellers who drive Range Rovers, They will never venture beyond the confines of the smooth asphalt of city streets, buy hey, they _could_ if they wished.

So I'm solidly in the camp that form follows function. Just as there is no perfect car, but simply the best available automobile that fits the owners needs, I feel there is no perfect boat, just the one that happens to best fit the owner's purpose and pocketbook.

Dave


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

And as far as those saying they really like living onboard a 30 something foot sailboat, I don't believe a word of it. 
Let them win the lottery, and we'll see how fast they're in a MUCH bigger boat, with all the amenities.

So, my idea of choosing a boat is basically: buy one as big as you can possibly afford, if you will be living onboard, otherwise buy one as big as you can possibly afford.... anyway.... 
Size DOES matter. 

But don't lie to yourself (or us) that you really like living in a small space with limited everything, freezing or sweating, with no, or a tiny hot water tank, no amenities, no refrigerator!!!!???? OMG, come on, just because we used to live in caves doesn't mean we would like it today... we would not.

But, living in denial does keep the goals from getting too lofty, as long as you can keep your partner convinced that they love living like a camper too. Good luck with that.

These people really make me laugh..... come on, who are you kidding? Not me.

P.S. The granite for the galley and 2 heads cost around $850.; it was one slab we bought in Miami. They cut it up very reasonably too. I installed it.
The Splendide model 1600 washer & dryer was a "scratch & dent" sale item, for $450 instead of the new $ 1650 price.
So, these "modern day conveniences" can be yours at discount prices, if you look for them.

Fair winds....


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

" Do the same rules as even a decade ago regarding boat strength and weather handling capabilities still apply?"

From my observations, the newest ultra light carbon materials some manufacturers are using in boat hulls, have provided the newest method of losing your boat in a high stress situation. 
I very much enjoy having an "over built" hull, rather than what the computer models say is "enough". 

As far as todays' weather patterns vs. decades ago, well, if a boat could handle the worst of years ago, she should handle it today too. Even if there are more, it is mostly more of the same level of stresses. 

But, what I see as a sad trend is the "just barely enough" policy in boat building, as opposed to the "built like a tank" philosophy. 

Not to mention... size DOES matter. My 38,000 lbs wasn't being thrown around anywhere near as much as boats with less weight. Though they will sail faster, they will generally bounce higher too.... 

(sorry I went off on the prior posting .... I am glad you are enjoying a simple life.)


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

chris - you obviously don't realize that the tone of your responses, whether intended to be or not, come across as judgmental. Just as in your engineless thread, you seem to be seeking validation for your choices, while imparting some sort of superiority to them. And this is before you've even put them to a real life test.

If your choices please you, that's great, but don't expect them to be right, or even thought to be better, for others. Everyone brings their own hopes and expectations to owning a boat, whether for weekending or long range cruising, and anything between. You're getting responses from people who've been there, done that, and relating what works for them in actual cruising and how they got there. Adding remarks like "experienced cruisers, outside of the Chesapeake and FL" doesn't come across very well, when you haven't been there.


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## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

I rebuilt the Perkins with only roughly 500 hours on her when we set sail, AND had balanced the engine. HAve you heard of anyone BALANCING their Perkins 4.236 ?

We stepped the main mast less than 10 months before the rigging failure, and had TWO riggers plus numerous others inspect every single part.

Granted I could have removed the interior walls, AGAIN, just before we set sail, and checked AGAIN, with the dye tests etc., but wild man that I am, I just accepted the views of 2 - 3 years earlier. My bad.

I had also replaced 100% of the plumbing, at least 50% of the wiring, throughout, installed all sorts of safety devices, replaced half of the deck on the port side, replaced the bowsprit, personally designed improvements which I had fabricated for the davits, and the list of things we DID do, prior to casting off are quite extensive.

The granite counters did not interfere in the many OTHER projects we accomplished on the Triumph.


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## MikeinLA (Jul 25, 2006)

Response deleted


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

You've made your choices chris, what do you need the insight for?


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## imagine2frolic (Aug 7, 2008)

It's not what you type at times. It's how it's typed. CnC, you really need to reread your posts before you submit them. Old habits can be hard to break, and you do not come off well as a well meaning person just seeking answers. You come off as a know it all, and from what I can figure out. It doesn't seem you have any experience at all. Maybe I missed it somewhere along the line, but just what actual sailing experience do you have? If you have none, or very little then maybe you just might want to keep an open mind, begin to learn, and quit being a troublemaker......*i2f*


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## junkrig (Jun 3, 2011)

imagine2frolic said:


> It's not what you type at times. It's how it's typed. CnC, you really need to reread your posts before you submit them. Old habits can be hard to break, and you do not come off well as a well meaning person just seeking answers. You come off as a know it all, and from what I can figure out. It doesn't seem you have any experience at all. Maybe I missed it somewhere along the line, but just what actual sailing experience do you have? If you have none, or very little then maybe you just might want to keep an open mind, begin to learn, and quit being a troublemaker......*i2f*


Gentlemen, gentlemen...

I'm very new here, but I find all the rock throwing off-putting. As far as I can see, Chris has apologized for his awkward style and promised to try to do better. Doug lost everything he had built up over his life and is understandably touchy about perceived criticisms of his efforts and accomplishments.
I shouldn't have even posted about my boat choice - I am clearly not knowledgeable enough to have participated.
Does Chris want validation for his choices? I don't know him, but it's not unusual among humans.
Please: be nice to one another.


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## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

Regarding the "tone" of peoples posts and being "judgemental" the very premise of the original question demands a level of judgement as it inquires about how you "judged" your boat suitable which reveals implications of what you "judged" unsuitable.

CnC has made some posts I thought were pretty slanted in the past but I thought his posts in this thread were fairly neutral, but might be misinterpreted by folks that were familiar with CnC's postings and were primed to find objections.

Frankly, I found Dougs posting to be the most judgemental in this thread and exceedingly condesending at that. There are people that seek simplicity in life that would not be interested in the bells and whistles that adorned Triumph. Clearly that's not the majority, but I think its a fair percentage of the cruising sailor population.

I personally don't fall in that camp, but respect and appreciate the goals of those that do. I can appreciate the allure of a simplified life and wouldn't assume such as lifestyle was something forced due to finances.


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## imagine2frolic (Aug 7, 2008)

I am being nice. I am simply pointing out that taking a second look before submitting a post would be a good idea. CnC doesn't want to come off wrong. Well I am giving him that, so instead of just typing, and pushing the button. Just give it another look. It's advice, and advice is given here all the time. I take that point of view from reading many of his previous post, and even he admits he is trying to adjust that.

I don't knock anyones boat. I started out in a much smalller boat that was as much camping as it was sailing. Over the decades my creature comfort wants demanded more, and my wallet was able to fulfill my needs. For many of us we sail what we can afford. As typed as life's income gets higher. Most of us buy bigger, not all, but most. Aging is surely a factor in the scheme of things too........*i2f*


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

CaptainForce said:


> JonEisberg said:
> 
> 
> > Other than my home, I've always paid cash for everything I've ever bought&#8230; So, I'm certainly not about to start writing another check each month, for something as frivolous as a boat&#8230; And, since I would NEVER sell my home to trade up to a boat to take off cruising, my choice in a boat was somewhat limited&#8230;
> ...


Of course, I could have made that clearer, but it goes without saying I wasn't referring to those whose boats are also their homes&#8230; Whole different ballgame, my boat and means of financing it would be entirely different, if I were a full-time liveaboard such as yourself&#8230;

And perhaps "frivolous" was a poor choice of word, I was simply attempting to draw the distinction between the financing of a _necessity_ for most of us dirt dwellers like an automobile, and a more discretionary purchase such as a boat&#8230; I'll never finance the purchase of a car, so I'm not about to purchase something I don't really _need_ - such as a boat - on time, is what I meant&#8230;

And trust me, my boat is far from something "frivolous", to me&#8230; Certainly one of my most prized possessions, and perhaps the only thing keeping me (reasonably) sane&#8230;

(grin)


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

NCC320 said:


> And that too large cockpit....it's great. So much better than those cramped little cockpits on bluewater boats. The point being, in all this, is that the designers and builders of those boats have learned a lot over the years, and they apply this knowledge to the boats. They knew better than I did what would really work.
> 
> And the cringe factor. It doesn't bother me any more. I have come to realize that most of those critics don't know what the heck they are talking about anyway.
> 
> ...


Sure, designers/builders continue to learn much over time, and will continue to make use of improving technologies, more sophisticated composite materials, and enhanced understanding of design through use of computers, and so on&#8230; That process will always continue to evolve, and often results in newer boats generally becoming lighter and faster than their predecessors, while often maintaining or even increasing their overall strength and longevity&#8230;

However, lighter and faster - for a boat being sailed offshore by a shorthanded crew - is not necessarily a desirable attribute&#8230; For many cruisers, it will prove less comfortable, and more tiring to sail, there's no such thing as a free lunch when making these sorts of tradeoffs&#8230;

Your boat obviously suits you well, a friend of mine has a 320, and it is indeed a very sweet boat&#8230; Catalina along with other builders clearly knows their market, and are building a great product for a broad range of consumers, and coupling that with some very effective market_ing_, to boot&#8230;

But, there is one thing that designers and builders will never be able to change, and that is the environment their products will be used in&#8230; Certainly, a "large cockpit" is likely a very nice feature for the manner in which the overwhelming percentage of production boats will be used. However, one aspect of sailing offshore that designers and builders will never be able to alter, are realities like the weight of seawater, or the forces of mass and acceleration that will conspire to toss a crewmember from one side of a large cockpit to the other&#8230; In themselves, "large cockpits" will never be a _desirable characteristic_ in a boat that's gonna be sailed offshore&#8230; that's not to say that boats with features like large cockpits, or narrow sidedecks, or lack of proper seaberths, or a whole host of attributes that have become staples of modern boat production _cannot_ be sailed offshore - but rather that such attributes will never become accepted as _preferred_ for bluewater sailing&#8230;


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## marianclaire (Feb 4, 2010)

How did you come to believe what you do about what boat is right for you?
Time on the boat experimenting, modifying, removing, replacing, getting it wrong and then right and then more time as the conditions/needs changed. Time on other boats observing.
I was lucky. I knew zip about boats and had no set plan for its use when I bought her. After several years and thousands of miles I am still experimenting, upgrading and simplifying. My kids, 25 and 30, said it best when they first came aboard " Dad it suits you". Dan S/V Marian Claire


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## NCC320 (Dec 23, 2008)

DougSabbag said:


> And as far as those saying they really like living onboard a 30 something foot sailboat, I don't believe a word of it.
> Let them win the lottery, and we'll see how fast they're in a MUCH bigger boat, with all the amenities.
> 
> So, my idea of choosing a boat is basically: buy one as big as you can possibly afford, if you will be living onboard, otherwise buy one as big as you can possibly afford.... anyway....
> ...


While you are generally correct that as one's means increase, the size and quality of their possessions increase...bigger house, nicer car, finer clothes, etc. But the advice to buy as big as you can afford doesn't really work in many cases.

When buying a boat, in my opinion, you need to be realistic about what you are going to do and where you are going to do it. If the water is shallow, a shoal draft is appropriate, if you are going to cruise around the world, a different boat is required than one for weekending and short coastal cruises. If you are single handing in shallow coastal waters, a 50 footer might be overkill, if you are living on it a 50 footer with all the extras, that makes life nice, but even then, if the boat can't sail effectively in the waters where you will use it, it is not a good solution.

At 72 years old (and that age sneaks up on you very rapidly), I would caution people not to buy too big. It gets harder to handle the boat, keep it cleaned, and maintained as you age. But just because you age, doesn't mean that you have to give up sailing if you have a modest (read smaller) boat, but one that has those things you really want/need. This is true, in my opinion, whether you have limited or unlimited funds.


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## svHyLyte (Nov 13, 2008)

chrisncate said:


> ...What galvanized your cruising philosophy? Would you ever change it one way or the other?


Our yacht is beautiful (to us and many), fast, a great sea boat, bullet proof, very livable, but most importantly my wife feels safe when we travel. She has none of the anxiety she did on our previous yacht. In fact, I bought this boat, a sister-ship to a boat owned by close friends--"Ocean Angel"--after we sailed with them on a boisterous day. "Now that's the boat I want!" my wife declared. I agreed that, if she could find the "identical boat" I'd buy it (not suspecting she could, but she did--in less than two weeks--and only 15 hull numbers apart from our friends' boat!).

FWIW...


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## dhays (Jul 9, 2010)

chrisncate said:


> Your argument makes sense, and I can't really argue a counterpoint. My perspective is probably clouded by the "unknown" regarding our future cruising grounds.
> 
> We just don't know where we might go, and for us being able to handle whatever makes the most sense I think.


If I was on the East Coast, or in CA, I very likely would have chosen a different boat because it would be used differently by us. Those of us in the PNW are in the somewhat unique situation of having an almost unlimited number of places to explore without having to leave "home" waters.









Dave


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## junkrig (Jun 3, 2011)

*Just as an aside...*



dhays said:


> If I was on the East Coast, or in CA, I very likely would have chosen a different boat because it would be used differently by us. Those of us in the PNW are in the somewhat unique situation of having an almost unlimited number of places to explore without having to leave "home" waters.
> 
> Dave


If you're ever sailing your home waters and see an old geezer in a 3-masted junk, very traditional / Chinese looking, sail over and say Howdy to Godfrey. 

PS - Beautiful map!


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## dhays (Jul 9, 2010)

NCC320 said:


> At 72 years old (and that age sneaks up on you very rapidly), I would caution people not to buy too big. It gets harder to handle the boat, keep it cleaned, and maintained as you age. But just because you age, doesn't mean that you have to give up sailing if you have a modest (read smaller) boat, but one that has those things you really want/need. This is true, in my opinion, whether you have limited or unlimited funds.


Very true. My folks kept buying larger boats until he got to an old Catalina 36. Their boats kept getting bigger to accommodate their 5 grandkids as they kept growing. However, it was setup to be easily handled by the two of them (it helped that they were both excellent sailors and in good health). However, when my father died suddenly (he had a stroke while they were anchored out in Telegraph Harbor), my Mom found that it wasn't a boat she was comfortable single-handing (docking was the issue, not the sailing). My wife and I found that the berths were a bit small for us as we are much bigger people.

The point is that the 36 was perfect for them as a couple and they used it extensively until my Dad died at 74. My Mom has moved on to kayaking, snow shoeing, and backpacking as they are solo activities that she can participate as a single person. I doubt that in 20 years I'll have the same boat that I do now. If I do, it definitely wont' be bigger! Who knows, if I'll even have a boat then?

Dave


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## junkrig (Jun 3, 2011)

chrisncate said:


> I never said anything condescending or judgmental as far as I can tell. The only thing I said was "wow" to granite in a boat and then the first ah ha! gotcha post from WnW came my way, which I then fell all over myself trying to let everyone know I wasn't being judgmental of that choice, and I thought it's fine to have something like that.
> 
> Are some of you just trolling me or something? This sucks, why can't some of you just let it go already. Dougs rant against me was loaded with personal attacks and condescension, yet nothing about that is noted from some of you who are posting about me personally again. Why?
> 
> Not having a martyr complex, I just truly do not understand this at this point.


Chris,
I have no idea what you might have said to whom in the past. As a relative newcomer I have not read what you have said on this thread as negative; the only person who has offended me on this thread is Doug, and that's as may be.
What I do know is that I have seen you fighting fiercely for losing causes on Off Topic, falling into name calling and infuriating people whom I suspect may still hold it against you. Trust me on this: you can never change another human's mind on religion or politics. Stay out of there, speak gently here, and surely it will some day blow over.

Jeff


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## dhays (Jul 9, 2010)

svHyLyte said:


> "Now that's the boat I want!" my wife declared. I agreed that, if she could find the "identical boat" I'd buy it (not suspecting she could, but she did--in less than two weeks--and only 15 hull numbers apart from our friends' boat!)


Now there is a smart man!

Dave


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

JonEisberg said:


> Sure, designers/builders continue to learn much over time, and will continue to make use of improving technologies, more sophisticated composite materials, and enhanced understanding of design through use of computers, and so on&#8230; That process will always continue to evolve, and often results in newer boats generally becoming lighter and faster than their predecessors, while often maintaining or even increasing their overall strength and longevity&#8230;
> 
> .....
> 
> But, there is one thing that designers and builders will never be able to change, and that is the environment their products will be used in&#8230; Certainly, a "large cockpit" is likely a very nice feature for the manner in which the overwhelming percentage of production boats will be used. However, one aspect of sailing offshore that designers and builders will never be able to alter, are realities like the weight of seawater, or the forces of mass and acceleration that will conspire to toss a crewmember from one side of a large cockpit to the other&#8230; In themselves, "large cockpits" will never be a _desirable characteristic_ in a boat that's gonna be sailed offshore&#8230; that's not to say that boats with features like large cockpits, or narrow sidedecks, or lack of proper seaberths, or a whole host of attributes that have become staples of modern boat production _cannot_ be sailed offshore - but rather that such attributes will never become accepted as _preferred_ for bluewater sailing&#8230;


Larger cockpits came as a consequence of more modern hull designs. If in your boat, with the stability characteristics your boat has, if possible (it is not by hull shape) a large cockpit would be a disaster, I agree.

On a good modern offshore boats like a modern Swan, a Sweden Yacht or a XC yacht the larger area of the cockpit is balanced by a much larger hull form stability that makes them much stabler platforms. In the end what counts is the way you are connected to your jack lines or fixed points in your sailboat in bad weather and the grab points you have. You will not go further than what the distance your line permits and that should be a really short distance.

I will agree with you that most mass production boats don't come with all that safety stuff from the factory mainly because they are not going to be used that way but even boats like Bavaria have them on their option list.

If you look at the size of cockpits of some bluewater boats like Malo, Sweden Yacht or any kind of offshore sailboat builder that has survived the last 30 years or so you are going to see that they all have much bigger cockpits and if you try a new one and an old one you are going to find that a new one is a much better offshore boat, more stable and more fast.

Regards

Paulo


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## junkrig (Jun 3, 2011)

chrisncate said:


> ... snip ...
> 
> My evolution in my personal beliefs on what makes the right boat for me comes partly from stories like s/v Triumphs. I devour all of the sailing literature I can, and I am certainly a junkie for sea going horror stories - both for the analysis of the facts regarding the event as well as the human element and experiences of those involved.
> 
> ...


Chris,

I'm dragging your OP (most of it, anyway) clear up to the present because it brings many questions to my mind.

Perhaps many SN'ers know what your boat is, but I missed that part and it's not on your profile. Tell me more about it, make, length, pertinent facts.

If no motor, how do you plan to move in very close quarters with foul winds? Oars? Yuloh? Stay away until the winds are fair?

I hope to avoid use of my motor as much as humanly possible. Junk sails reef down to very tiny small, and allow extremely slow maneuvering in crowded anchorages and marinas, but I'm too chicken to not have a backup. They still won't go into the teeth of the wind. I'm thinking seriously about making a yuloh.

I know you say your cruising destination is TBD, but where are you sailing now?

My previous post re: my "cruising philosophy" was not well chosen, I don't have a "cruising philosophy." What I have is a "boat owning philosophy." Any real "cruising" would not include my wife, who is not leaving her little farm period. I'm not leaving her, period. End of my story.

But please tell me yours.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

junkrig said:


> Chris,
> 
> ...
> If no motor, how do you plan to move in very close quarters with foul winds? Oars? Yuloh? Stay away until the winds are fair?
> ...


Not impossible but a job for a really good sailor. Back on the 80's I knew a Scottish sailor that was circumnavigating with a small sailing boat without engine and I knew that he had maid it because he wrote a monthly article about it on Yachting Monthly.

I had my experiences sailing a 26ft sailing boat with a broken engine back home, some hundreds of miles away and I know it is not easy for a solo sailor.

I guess that more difficult part is just anchoring near land on a protected cove to escape bad weather, not to mention entering a busy port under sail and pick a moring. Not any space to miss and a lot of things to do at the same time, specially when you do not have an electric windlass and without an engine you will not have one.

I believe I would be very far away to have the experience to sail successively a sailboat without engine around the world with success and I would say that non stop would be easier but that was not the case with that guy. Well he was a sail instructor back home and I bet, a very good one

Regards

Paulo


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

DougSabbag said:


> And as far as those saying they really like living onboard a 30 something foot sailboat, I don't believe a word of it.
> Let them win the lottery, and we'll see how fast they're in a MUCH bigger boat, with all the amenities.


Again, probably just me, but no matter how much money I ever came into, no way would I ever own anything much bigger than 42 feet&#8230;

And if I ever did, it would look more like this: (grin)












DougSabbag said:


> So, my idea of choosing a boat is basically: buy one as big as you can possibly afford, if you will be living onboard, otherwise buy one as big as you can possibly afford.... anyway....
> Size DOES matter.
> 
> But don't lie to yourself (or us) that you really like living in a small space with limited everything, freezing or sweating, with no, or a tiny hot water tank, no amenities, no refrigerator!!!!???? OMG, come on, just because we used to live in caves doesn't mean we would like it today... we would not.
> ...


Some out there would disagree, including the couple who have traced the tracks pictured below&#8230;

Follow this link, and scroll down to "What We Left Off HAWK" for the PDF file of one of the better articles ever to make it into the pages of a glossy cruising rag...

Articles


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

JonEisberg said:


> ...
> Follow this link, and scroll down to "What We Left Off HAWK" for the PDF file of one of the better articles ever to make it into the pages of a glossy cruising rag...
> 
> Articles


Thanks, great stuff


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

...


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Chris,

Looks like an old shoe to me........not my style. but I am sure others would like it!

Boats are like homes, cars, movies, books etc. All are good, all are bad, depending upon the how you use and want to use, where to use etc. 

I'll take what I refer to as a slow Race/cruise to a fast Cruiser/racer with as deep a fin keel as I can, tallest mast.....nice interior to keep the spousal unit happy, Yet one I can race, reasonably sail myself along with depower so when it is spouse and I, she is not scared etc. So far, my little boat is fine. A bit bigger would be nice, in the mean time. I'm happy, so is spouse, so whatever floats your boat, is good by me!

Heck, I'd be happy owning a laser!

Marty


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

...


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## NaviGsr (Sep 17, 2009)

chrisncate

Your Alberg refit is admirable, and I personally like your whole cruising mentality (very Moitessier), however, you are refitting a heavy boat for long distance cruising. People who have sailed the world write that the majority of passage making is in lighter airs. Have you made modification plans to improve the rig/sail combo for light-wind reaching? If you have no water maker, no engine, and a slow, heavy boat, passage distance could become a real obstacle to your plans.

Of course, I have no idea where you plan on taking her (she looks lovely btw), but I will say even from my limited experience that the moment you don't have an engine is when you really need one.


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## junkrig (Jun 3, 2011)

I am, even as we speak, paying someone to get my elderly Yanmar 8 hp diesel running. If / when I get some spare money laid by I will be giving some serious consideration to electric power. Probably about 7 grand for the system I want. 

Provided one is willing to sail one's sail boat nearly all the time, and carry some solar panels, electric will get one in and out of coves and slips with no muss, no fuss, no noise, no smoke, no excitement... and based on our on-farm experience with a solar electric golf cart, do so for years with nearly no maintenance.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Chris,

HERE is my boat, and some comments about it too! as you can see, about the same size dimension wise, a bit lighter in the upper 6K range vs yours at 10K or there abouts looking up some spec.

Then HERE i the head redo, with a link at the bottom to redoing the aft cabin, and the rest of the boat was similarly done! She is a fun boat for how I sail here in the salish sea.

Then Dhays 400, probably a heavier boat than really needed, at least compared to two other couples with 420 mkIIs. I think his 400 will do more than he thinks it will frankly! but that is another debate elsewhere!LOL

Its all good, a bad day on the water, is usually better than a day at work!

Marty


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

I only pull out for 3-14 days every 2-3 yrs for bottom paint or other odds and ends. have a race next sunday, following sat, then potentially every weekend thru the end of Oct. a coupld of dates in Nov, one in early Dec. then start all over in February.

The repair articles were my words and pics for the jeanneau owners site hints and tips. The GOB article, I've actually given that writer about 6 other boats to do reviews on, including one int he current and last issue. Another earlier this year, and 2-3 others in the works. I was trying to get Davids-Ddenda's CS36M, but that boat model had unfortunately already been reviewed a few years back.

Marty


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

blt2ski said:


> The repair articles were my words and pics for the jeanneau owners site hints and tips. The GOB article, I've actually given that writer about 6 other boats to do reviews on, including one int he current and last issue. Another earlier this year, and 2-3 others in the works. I was trying to get Davids-Ddenda's CS36M, but that boat model had unfortunately already been reviewed a few years back.
> 
> Marty


Nice! Is GOB based out of where you hail from?


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## dhays (Jul 9, 2010)

blt2ski said:


> Then Dhays 400, probably a heavier boat than really needed, at least compared to two other couples with 420 mkIIs. I think his 400 will do more than he thinks it will frankly! but that is another debate elsewhere!LOL


Hey Marty. The choice of the 400 over the 42 was based entirely on cabin layout. In short, the centerline aft cabin was what appealed to my wife.  I also like the twin wheels since it gives lots of options when sailing. I usually like to sit on the rail, weather or lee, when sailing and it makes it easy to do.

I'm happy with the 400, but there are a couple things which would give me pause if I was to use it for extended bluewater cruising. A big one is the furling main. I love it for where we sail. Particularly South of the convergence zone in Puget Sound, the wind is fickle at best. With our C36 with lazy jacks, there were plenty of times when we wouldn't raise the main since we would only be taking it down again 15 minutes later. Even though the sail shape of the furling main isn't nearly as good, it gets used a LOT more. However, on the ocean I would want a tradition main with a track and lazy jacks.

The 400 also has no good births for use with lee cloths. It would make long passages a bit more difficult. However, it would be easy to add lee clothes to the settee in the main cabin. Along with that, it would need an additional hand hold running down the center of the cabin roof.

There is no good way to put any type of vane steering on the 400 (as far as I know). That would be really nice for passage making.

So, I would have few qualms about taking the boat to Alaska along the inside passage, nor to SoCa or Mexico provided the weather window was there. Beyond that, I'd be looking for a different boat (and likely a different wife, but that is another issue).

Dave


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## dhays (Jul 9, 2010)

chrisncate said:


> She looks good, and appears to be very well built. Can you sail year around where you are?


Ack! You haven't been paying attention. 

Remember, the Salish Sea is in the Pacific Northwest. It encompasses the marine system from Desolation Sound North of the Georgia Straits in BC, Canada, to the Southern end of Puget's Sound in Washington State. We have cold water, mild winters, and generally cool summers whose wind velocity and air temperature are inversely related.


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

dhays said:


> Ack! You haven't been paying attention.
> 
> Remember, the Salish Sea is in the Pacific Northwest. It encompasses the marine system from Desolation Sound North of the Georgia Straits in BC, Canada, to the Southern end of Puget's Sound in Washington State. We have cold water, mild winters, and generally cool summers whose wind velocity and air temperature are inversely related.


 I certainly do not know the area... I'd love to though, I bet it's beautiful.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

dhays said:


> Ack! You haven't been paying attention.
> 
> Remember, the Salish Sea is in the Pacific Northwest. It encompasses the marine system from Desolation Sound North of the Georgia Straits in BC, Canada, to the Southern end of Puget's Sound in Washington State. We have cold water, mild winters, and generally cool summers whose wind velocity and air temperature are inversely related.


Stop telling people about it! They'll start coming here and not leaving.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

junkrig

Yesterday I saw a unique 3 masted junk crossing Victoria harbour. I pointed it out to a neighbour I was standing with and he said it was Godfrey's boat. One day I will get a closer look as I spend my days in marinas somewhere in this area.

Chris

Karen Larson's Good Old Boat has its home port in Maple Grove Minnesota.

The Salish Sea and passages north are not a place I would want to be in an engineless boat. Often very light summer winds, narrow passages often too narrow to tack in and currents away from slack water up to 5,7, and even 14 knots in places. It is an incredible coast where I have sailed and kayaked since 1970.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

*How did you come to believe what you do about what boat is right for you?*

In a word - experience. When I first got introduced to sailing in the early 70's I wanted a 50' ferro schooner and an IOR one tonner. One to live and cruise on and one to play with.

Once I learned a few things I settled for an IOR QUARTER tonner! Then, with some more money I got the Columbia because it was another boat I'd always really liked. Now after owning it, sailing on other boats the same size, chartering similar size boats etc I realize something around 32' or so is what I really want after all.

Just think what might have happened if I'd had the money for that One Tonner 40 years ago!


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## contrarian (Sep 14, 2011)

Just gotta say that some of the posts on here were incredible. Really liked the post by NCC320. "Dem people up er in North Carolinaz pertty smart. I knowed they wuz a reason I married one o dem Carolina Girls. An jus soz ya'll know jus cause a fellars only sailed out tare in dat Guf O Mexico don't mean they don't know nuttin bout no bad weather. I knowed a fellar thatid been one o dem heliocopter pilots in Viet Nam that said he gotsa scart outare in one o dem storms that he nearly messed hisself an he said that never happened over dare in Viet Nam when people was a shootin at em and stuff. I reckon any o dem dare oceans can be a mighty unforgivin place no madder how " Blue Water " yer boat is.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

With my boat, I replaced every system except the fridge (which I now have to do). Other than the standing rigging and part of the running rigging, everything is new. My reasoning being, if it is marginal, replace while I have the money, rather than wait and have to use emergency funds, or earn them.

I run a full batten Doyle stackpak cruising main with 2 reef points and a Doyle foam luff furling 110 headsail. I have no other sails, other than the ones I replaced. I went with the 110 because it's easier to deal with than a 150, and the foam luff to better use it furled down part way. I went with 2 reef points because I avoid being in a situation where I'd need three. If I were blue water sailing full time, my choices would be different.

The one thing I plan on changing is replacing my 30' of chain with 100'. The one thing I plan on adding is solar panels. Other than wishing I'd bought a RIB with a larger motor, there's nothing I really would do different.

The boat was designed for exactly what I'm doing, and does it well. It's easy to singlehand, easy to maintain, and comfortable, for me, to live on. It sails well and gets me where I want to go. I don't think one can ask more than that of a boat.


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## junkrig (Jun 3, 2011)

mitiempo said:


> junkrig
> 
> Yesterday I saw a unique 3 masted junk crossing Victoria harbour. I pointed it out to a neighbour I was standing with and he said it was Godfrey's boat. One day I will get a closer look as I spend my days in marinas somewhere in this area.


If you can catch him chat him up. I've never met him face to face but we have a mutual friend (another junk rig junkie) and have been in some email exchanges together. He's a notable and friendly guy.

That used to be a single master, but he's over 70 now and couldn't hoist the large single main very well any more, so he put the two extra masts on it, with smaller sails, so he could spread the sail area and not have to lift as much all at once.


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## Fiasco1 (Dec 4, 2010)

PBzeer said:


> A properly found and maintained boat is almost always going to withstand more than it's crew is capable of.
> 
> You choose the boat that's right for you, not for someone else. Otherwise, eventually, you'll be dissatisfied with the experience. Just as there is no perfect boat, neither is there a perfect cruising philosophy. Life is about enjoying it, not just surviving it.


I have to agree with these statements i cruise / race on a boat that is in the ULDB catagory, So all the displacement cons / Stability issues / Spartin accomodations always come up. Because of these issues i have put a lot of thought into a seaworthy sytem and race equiptment Just need a life raft to be Cat 1 Offshore certified how many cruisers can say that. Granted you would never live on a Olson 30 but you can race them to Hawaii and chances are you might win. So for me now Yacht club races , The odd 100 N/Mile over night race and weekend crusing is what i enjoy. I had a pilot house cruiser with all the bells and whistles, But now enjoy the freedom of less mechanical issues and faster sailing. Whatever floats your boat.


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## dhays (Jul 9, 2010)

SloopJonB said:


> Stop telling people about it! They'll start coming here and not leaving.


Oops... good point.

Did I mention the rain, the constant lack of sunshine, the COLD water year round, strong currents and large tidal changes, and the fact that there isn't any wind in the summer during the one week when it isn't raining?


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

You forgot one... or two.....

One could run into dhays or sloopjonb!:laugher:laugher

or worst yet, blt2ski!

dhays, like a lot of boats, you 400 would probably has WAY more ability than you think it does. I've heard it is one of catalina;s better offshore designs and boats.

Marty


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

dhays said:


> Oops... good point.
> 
> Did I mention the rain, the constant lack of sunshine, the COLD water year round, strong currents and large tidal changes, and the fact that there isn't any wind in the summer during the one week when it isn't raining?


It rains in the PNW during summer ? Why didn't somone mention this before now ?


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

"Is it better to have a boat that is totally appropriate for where it's used, or a boat that can be used anywhere totally appropriately?"

The original question is better as the latter makes the assumption that one can't chose (buy/sell) a different tool for a different task. 

How did I decide on the current boat? Having sailed a lot of different boats, most with a racing heritage, I was pre-disposed to boats that are both sea worthy and fast. There are certain designers' work that I think is heads and tails above most of the pack for the type of boat I like, namely a well built racer/cruiser. Carl Schumacher, Bruce Farr, Olin Stevens, Laurie Davidson. Then there are builders that have a track record of making well crafted, tough boats. Mechanical clarity/simplicity was also a big item as I like to be able to maintain things myself. Size wise, something that wasn't so big that it'd break the bank every time something broke. In the end, we ended up with a great boat... for us. Alsberg Bros Express 34. There are a couple of larger boats I like, and a couple that are smaller. All are either one off or relatively low in production numbers:

Farr 1020, Farr 1220, a local custom Davidson 40 (Teddy Bear for PNWesters who are familiar with her), and a Davidson 29 (Kokopelli, now Madam Pele) that I took a long and hard at when it was on the market. I also like the Olson 40, and if money were no object, an SC 50 or 52 set up to cruise would be a blast. I think the Farr 1220 is one of the most overlooked gems of a ocean worthy boat that is both relatively fast and has a great layout for a family to cruise pretty much anywhere their desires might take them with the exception of extreme latitudes.


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## groggy (Aug 18, 2011)

One of the delightful downsides of being in a boat club is that I spend too much time sailing boats that are beyond my purchasing budget. While it's nice to sail bigger, newer boats than I am considering, I gotta get some time on older, smaller boats that I am more interested in buying.


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

...


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## donradclife (May 19, 2007)

The decision about what boat to buy came after a lot of experience, both blue water racing and cruising, and we were looking for a boat we could circumnavigate in as a couple. In 1992, we sailed a Santa Cruz 40 to NZ, and had it shipped home because we realized it was not the boat for us--no windlass, no hot showers, too fragile. From that experience we bought our Beneteau First 456, which was the right combination of performance and comfort--not only that, it was a hell of a lot of boat for the money. After 16 years and 80,000 miles, including a circumnavigation, I haven't found many boats which I envied. 

I could afford something much more expensive, but chose to put the money into quality gear and proper maintenance for the boat I had. As a result, I've never experienced a serious failure, and never needed outside assistance.

Bigger is better out at sea--off the coast of Columbia we had no problems while the smaller boats around us were being knocked down and seriously damaged. One of the best professional sailors I know abandoned his 28 ft boat in a gale off California in the same area where the waves rolled an Norsea 27. In 25 ft seas you are better off in a 50 ft boat than a 25 ft one--its just physics, read the Fastnet race accounts.

Tankage is overrated in a boat that sails well. We got along fine with 100 gallons of fresh water and a watermaker, plus 50 gallons of fuel with 20 in jerrycans

Every boat is a compromise, so you have to pick something which is best suited to your use. The Bene is a great ocean boat, wicked fast in light air and powerful in heavy, but that comes at the cost of an 8 ft draft and 66 ft air draft--that leaves the ICW out. We are now ready to retire from ocean passages and do the Great Loop, so the boat is up for sale and we are going through the decision process again, this time for a powerboat in the 35 ft range with less than 4 ft draft.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Powerboat!


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

donradclife said:


> The decision about what boat to buy came after a lot of experience, both blue water racing and cruising, and we were looking for a boat we could circumnavigate in as a couple. In 1992, we sailed a Santa Cruz 40 to NZ, and had it shipped home because we realized it was not the boat for us--no windlass, no hot showers, too fragile. From that experience we bought our Beneteau First 456, which was the right combination of performance and comfort--not only that, it was a hell of a lot of boat for the money. After 16 years and 80,000 miles, including a circumnavigation, I haven't found many boats which I envied.
> 
> I could afford something much more expensive, but chose to put the money into quality gear and proper maintenance for the boat I had. As a result, I've never experienced a serious failure, and never needed outside assistance.
> 
> ...


Donr - do you have a blog or something that has write-ups of your adventures? I'm really interested to hear more about your trips and especially the goods and bads of the Bene.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

puddinlegs said:


> "Is it better to have a boat that is totally appropriate for where it's used, or a boat that can be used anywhere totally appropriately?"


I missed this very well put post until now. IMHO, the first part well describes what the new boat market has decided is correct - hence the BeneHuntAlina phenomenon.

The second part better describes the attitude of all the critics of those same BeneHuntAlinas.

The bottom line is; it's *your* boat - is it doing what *you* want/need? If so, it's as good as boats get.

When I was about 12 we were visiting some family friends who lived on the lake shore. Their 3 boys had an old, wooden, concrete mixing "stone boat". They had rigged up a pole mast and a bedsheet sail and used it like it was a miniature hay scow, complete with cement encrustations.

The hot summer day we spent drifting along the shore in that thing was my first time under sail and I still remember it as one of the best days I've ever had on the water. It was perfectly suited to its purpose.


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## crstophr (Feb 15, 2012)

I needed a boat that would fit my desire to learn, grow, and be out on the water.

I had little experience sailing so it needed to be small enough to be manageable with one or two people.

I didn't want to grow out of it in one season so it had to be big enough to keep me challenged and having fun.

It needed to be capable of taking at least 4 people sailing.

I didn't want to commit to large monthly slip fees so overall length had to be kept low. Costs scale with length. Same for sails, rigging, bottom paint, etc.

I wanted to be able to put it on a trailer should I need to move in the future.

It had to stand up to regular summer sailing conditions on the SF Bay so I wanted a boat designed for this area. i.e. handle up to 20 kts without needing to reef.

It had to have a great reputation as a solid and safe boat on the bay.

The initial purchase price had to be under 5k... preferably under 3k.

I read about the santana 22 as a legendary bay boat.. which lead me to reading about Gary Mull the boat's designer. This lead me to one of his later boats the Ranger 23. Fortunately I found one in good shape that had been well loved and cared for by the previous owner of 12 years. 

I believe his boat fits my skill level for the next several years at least, the area and conditions I will be sailing in, and my financial constraints.


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