# Mostly singlehanded...what lines should I run aft?



## NewportNewbie (Jul 30, 2011)

I am planning on doing some deck work and everyone says this is the time to run lines to the cockpit. What lines should I run aft? Right now the only lines aft are the main sheet, jib sheets, topping lift and travelers. I was planning on running the cunningham and boom vang back. Should I do main halyard? Spin Halyard? I am going to be using an Asym. Spinnaker I assume the topping lift isnt needed? Anyone have before and after pics?


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## SimonV (Jul 6, 2006)

Boom vang yes, but I would leave the rest alone, Just because you single hand does not mean you cant leave the cockpit. I find it annoying trying to sail a boat with everything back to the cockpit, It can be like standing in a bowl of spaghetti if your not anal about trying to keep it neat . It might have been the reason some boat use continuous lines.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

I agree, with the exception of the spinnaker halyard, so you can blow it if you broach, the mainsheet, jib sheets, foreguy, spin pole topping lift, twings, and spin sheets. Don't bother running other lines aft unless you are an invalid or like to buy gear. Otherwise, there is no need. You can walk the 10 feet up to the mast.


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## svzephyr44 (Jun 26, 2000)

jameswilson29 said:


> I agree, with the exception of the spinnaker halyard, so you can blow it if you broach, the mainsheet, jib sheets and spin sheets. Don't bother running other lines aft unless you are an invalid or like to buy gear. Otherwise, there is no need. You can walk the 10 feet up to the mast.


I think this is a question of where you sail. I do offshore cruising - including a solo trans-Atlantic. That 10 feet to the mast can be quite a challenge in 35 knot winds and 25 foot seas (did I mention at night?)


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

We have everything but the topping lift run back. Love it. But, it's ten feet or more from the helm to the cabin top winches. Quite a bit further to the mast. Reefing from the cockpit is a real plus, because that's usually done when you would prefer not to be on the deck. Of course, you need a furler or jiffy reef type system to do it.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I predominantly single-hand in coastal waters and have for nearly 50 years. I tend to sail my boats in conditions that most people do not, enjoy keeping my boat properly trimmed and up to speed, and I also race my boat single-hand. 

Because of that I typically set my boats up with all halyards and sheets run aft, the boom vang run aft, the outhaul and at least one reef run aft, and the pole lift and foreguy run aft. I also have my jib sheet leads run aft. I don't use the cunningham when single-handed since it does so little that cannot be done with the main halyard. In large part I do this to clear the winches and cleats off the mast, boom and deck forward since I firmly believe that fouling sheets on these is a bigger hazard to a single-hander than having to go to the mast to reef. I also run my backstay adjuster to the helm, which in your case may mean bringing your baby stay adjuster to the helm.

But beyond that, I believe that people adjust the control lines that they can easily reach. If you are single-handing and you need to leave the helm to make an adjustment, you will not adjust halyard tension, outhaul, or vang. This can make a huge difference in performance or be a big nuisance. 

I must admit that running everything aft did not come free. I had to add a number of Garhauer blocks at the mast base, and a rack of stoppers and also cam cleats where they made more sense. I regularly use 6 of the 12 aft stoppers on my boat (9 when the chute is up since the pole lift and foreguy are run aft as well). On a boat your size you might get by with small cam cleats for the majority of minor control lines, with only stoppers for the halyards. 

If you were only going to run one line aft, I would suggest that it should be the main halyard. To some extent, on most boats, if you can get the mainsail up, the boat will short tack upwind with the mainsheet cleated and the helm loosely tied amidships allowing you to raise and adjust the jib at leisure. 

Jeff


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## Silvio (Nov 10, 2010)

I know you didn't ask but I will offer this bit of advice. For single handing if you do not have midship cleats, and you are doing deck work anyway, you might consider adding them with sound backing plates. A line from a midship cleat lead back to the cockpit winch or a cleat will make you look like a docking genius when you are single handing.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

This was also recently discussed here:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/general-discussion-sailing-related/97023-halyards-cockpit.html


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## John B (Mar 6, 2013)

I have been sailing for about 2yrs and I can tell you that when the wind gets past 20 kts .I am not leaving the cockpit.Lines leading aft would be helpful.


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## BarryL (Aug 21, 2003)

NewportNewbie said:


> I am planning on doing some deck work and everyone says this is the time to run lines to the cockpit. What lines should I run aft? Right now the only lines aft are the main sheet, jib sheets, topping lift and travelers. I was planning on running the cunningham and boom vang back. Should I do main halyard? Spin Halyard? I am going to be using an Asym. Spinnaker I assume the topping lift isnt needed? Anyone have before and after pics?


Hey,

IMHO, for single handing, the nicest piece of gear is an autopilot. With the AP on, I can leave the wheel and do whatever needs to be done. Depending on your boat layout, just having lines run to the cockpit may not be enough. For example my boat has the typical layout of traveler on the cabin top with control lines led port and starboard. If I am at the wheel I can't reach the main sheet or the traveler lines. So even though those lines are 'led aft' I can't reach them unless I leave the wheel. Since I don't particularly like to steer, I usually use the AP (or have a guest steer) and this allows me to trim the sails to my heart's content.

Regarding the main halyard, where is your reef line? If you need to go to the mast to reef then running the halyard aft isn't going to help. On my 28' boat I had single line reefing (led aft) and the main halyard aft too. It was very easy to raise and lower the main from the cockpit as well as put in a reef. On my 35' boat there is too much friction to make raising the main from the cockpit easy (but it's very easy to do from the mast). There is also too much friction for single line reefing to be easy. So I raise / lower the main from the mast, as well as put in the reef at the mast too.

I do have the outhall, vang, topping lift, and reefing line (for the rear of the sail) run aft.

Lastly, I am 49 years old, fit, and with good balance. I find it easy to leave the cockpit to go to the mast (or bow) and perform any necessary tasks. I don't have a complicated dodger / bimini setup that makes leaving the cockpit difficult, and my boat has decent hand holds as I go forward.

Take care,
Barry


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

BarryL said:


> Lastly, I am 49 years old, fit, and with good balance. I find it easy to leave the cockpit to go to the mast (or bow) and perform any necessary tasks. I don't have a complicated dodger / bimini setup that makes leaving the cockpit difficult, and my boat has decent hand holds as I go forward.
> 
> Take care,
> Barry


And, that is as it should be... On a proper sailing yacht, there should be little fear, or hesitation, of leaving the cockpit in anything short of extremely boisterous conditions, and darkness should not at all add to the risk of doing so...

Perhaps my biggest gripe with many modern boats, is the poor cockpit and deck ergonomics - the subtle contours and facets of the deck and coachroof, large expanses of areas uncovered by non-skid, the huge coamings that must be straddled in an ungainly fashion without good handholds to gain access to pathetically narrow side-decks with minimal toerails, and on and on... Then, bolt on some of those Canvas Contraptions becoming more and more prevalent, and it's easy to see why some folks fear having to drag themselves out on deck... (grin)

Last boat I was on, leaving the cockpit was as safe as could be, the boat was an absolute delight to move around on deck (absent the ice, of course) A sturdy, unobtrusive dodger with side rails, 30" high lifelines, and absence of jerry jugs and other crap creating needless deck clutter, etc...

As it should be... A sad sign of the times, that going forward in a gale at sea would entail far less risk on this 31-footer, than it would on many modern boats almost twice her size...


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

If you run everything aft it has to work.. this means good gear, blocks, the right tackle etc.. 

I agree that for this kind of the a working autopilot is a huge advantage, being able to move around the boat and tend to things without having to dash back and forth to correct a course or wind angle is really nice.

Headsail halyards (if not furling), spinnaker lines, downhauls, vang if applicable are all good candidates. Depending on the boat I'm not sure I'd run the main halyard aft unless the reefing lines are run aft too. If you have to go to the mast to deal with the reef tack and clew, the halyard may as well be there too. (and see 'autopilot' reference above )

Running reef lines aft is the most problematic, as they are going to be the most friction-prone. This can add up to a good bit of good (costly) gear, but it's out there if you want it.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

I made my reefing lines run a lot better by doing a Amsteel to XLS splice using these instructions:
Splicing Amsteel to Sta-Set

The portion running through the sail is 3/16" Amsteel. What runs back to the cockpit is 3/8" XLS. When the reef is in use the splice ends just at the clutch. This has made the single line reefing work well on my boat and it's nice not having a heavy line running up and down along the sail cloth. The Amsteel slips nicely through the reefing grommits on the sail. It also doesn't stretch.

I'd say keep it simple on what you run back. On my boat I have a dodger and the following run back: outhaul, reef, main halyard, vang, jib halyard, spinnaker halyard. This is how the boat came setup (except for the vang, which I added). The only control not run back is the topping lift, which is forward under the boom. Furling and spinnaker tack line both run back too, but along the stanchions.

I setup my previous boat and only ran the two halyards (jib was hank on) and reefing lines back to the cockpit. Topping lift and outhaul are on the boom. Spinnaker halyard is on the mast. Vang is at the base of the mast and is accessible from the companionway. It's less cluttered and still pretty easy to access everything if single handing with an autopilot. It's also easier for guest crew to figure out.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

John B said:


> ...when the wind gets past 20 kts .I am not leaving the cockpit...


What?  That's when the fun starts!


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

BarryL said:


> Lastly, I am 49 years old, fit, and with good balance. I find it easy to leave the cockpit to go to the mast (or bow) and perform any necessary tasks.


We are about the same age. Once you start acting old, you are old. Once you start acting scared, you are scared.

To me, this is further evidence of the "wimpification" of our culture.

Come on boys and girls, make your way up to the mast, even if you have to crawl on hands and knees, crying all the way...

Every sailor should read K. Adlard Coles "Heavy Weather Sailing" to find out what our courageous predecessors did in the days before push button convenience sailing, GPS, electronics, electronic depth sounders, and weather faxes. Those guys had balls. We are mere shadows of the trailblazing sailors of earlier times.

If you read about the first, solo, nonstop round the world race, you will discover that the race winner, Robin Knox Johnston, eschewed the use of a safety harness, because he felt he was more safe without one. It may him aware of the danger and he had hours and hours of practice walking around the boat in the worst conditions without a harness.

One of my most memorable moments from my racing days as foredeck crew was pulling down a genoa while a Chesapeake Bay cold front came through the fleet during the Solomons Island Invitational Race. Wind was gusting in the 50s and I literally had to lie down on top of the sail to hold it down, no harness, no PFD, clutching the bow pulpit with the boat heeled over, dipping the rail.

That's when you know you are alive!

Now get off your arses and crawl up to the mast, dangit.:laugher


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

jameswilson29 said:


> .....To me, this is further evidence of the "wimpification" of our culture.
> 
> Come on boys and girls, make your way up to the mast, even if you have to crawl on hands and knees, crying all the way........


Do you still hand crank your car? Refuse an elevator to the 10th floor? Take the train over the plane?

I don't see why not take advantage of a modern convenience, when there isn't a particular advantage of doing it the old way.

Of course, if one is unable or unwilling to go to the mast, that's a problem. I had to go out to unfoul the main halyard down in the BVI in 8 ft seas north of Virgin Gorda, even though it was lead to the cockpit. One should not be fully reliant on the new tech.


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## SVTatia (May 7, 2007)

Before you spend all that money on lines, halyards and hardware, list on a step by step basis all the tasks you will need to reef your main.
You will then realize that you still have to go to the mast for at least two tasks: hook the reef cringle and lash the sail to the boom.
In my opinion, if your lines run aft and you still need to go to the mast, what is the purpose? The only thing I can think of is to stay there less time, but what da heck, 5 minutes or 10 minutes of exposure will not do any harm, besides, its fun!


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

I have everything aft except the spin pole topping lift.

All reefing lines are aft.

I don't like having to get out of the cockpit in very nasty weather.. Although when reefing often I need to go forward and play with the reefing lines at the mast where they tend to get themselves caught up.


Mark


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Not all reefing systems require a cringle.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

SVTatia said:


> You will then realize that you still have to go to the mast for at least two tasks: hook the reef cringle and lash the sail to the boom.


Neither of those are necessary in many reefing systems. Often the reef tack cringle is held down with line, just as the reef clew cringle is.

The sail should never be lashed to the boom, the reef knots should go around the sail cloth only. That is an optional step that makes it neater, but it's not mandatory.

Here my boat Elena is reefed with neither of those things done:









Here my friend's boat Jackie is reefed with reefing line tidying up the loose sail at the boom:









His boat has no lines going to the cockpit and and he single hands all the time. His boat is also engineless (he even glassed over the propshaft through hull).


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## svzephyr44 (Jun 26, 2000)

I am reminded by this commentary of the old saying "amputation with a dull spoon is possible, it just takes a long time and is very messy." Yes, K. Adlard Coles used to take his poor wife out into the English Channel in the worst of conditions and survived. Frankly I got tired of reading how many times he had to trim the wicks and relight the running lights. I found very little of value in his recounting of his antics. My favorite old salt advice: "If you are thinking it might be time to reef you should have already reefed."

For me setting up a boat is about safety first and then convenience. I single hand a great deal in open ocean conditions. In Newfoundland the water temperature was 40 Fahrenheit. Even a splash was a bone chilling experience, a fall into the water attached to a harness and lifeline gave you maybe 5 minutes to get back on board. When you are sailing for 15 or 20 days in a row without stopping or the assistance of other people dealing with conditions others might consider "fun" is exhausting. Waves in the Atlantic are always confused (at least it seems that way.) Spending time at the mast with the boat pitching in weird ways because I can see a thunderstorm bearing down on me is to me not exciting, it is part of what I do because I have to. I prefer to minimize that time, although as pointed out when I reef I do have to go forward to secure the reef point to the gooseneck. (I have played with single line reefing and have not found a solution I like.) Having too many things lashed down or up - spinnaker, boom preventer, whisker pole - when the wind shifts 180 degrees because of the oncoming storm and then back again adds to the exhaustion factor.

Reboot is rigged for single hand sailing with a jib and main. All those lines are led back to the cockpit. I can put up the whisker pole by myself, but that requires quite a bit of foredeck work. The asymmetric and spinnaker require me to have crew on board. Being a very conservative sailor I don't fly these sails when I am single handing - they require too much effort in changing weather conditions. I could in fact fly them, but getting an extra knot is usually not worth the effort (_Reboot_ usually can get close to hull speed in normal open ocean conditions - about 15 to 20 knots of wind.

I agree that for single handing an autopilot is a must. I actually have two, an electric and a wind vane. When the wheel steering failed 1000 NM offshore and took the wind vane with it having a redundant system (the electric autopilot) was a great savior. I use the electric autopilot during all sail changes - it does make life easier.

So, my view is you work out how and where you are going to sail, who you are going to sail with, and then figure out what lines need to come back. The two I think are critical to safety are the main and jib halyards. When things go really wrong I just trip the clutches and the sails pretty much come down by themselves, at least enough for me to get control of the boat again. Yes, I have a roller reefing jib but sometimes the roller just doesn't want to roll or the wind speed makes furling difficult. So every once in a while I just have to trip the halyard and clean up the mess afterwards.

Hope this helps


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

I'll second the suggestion for a "crewman in a can" (autopilot),
but for the type of sailing the OP typically does, running all lines aft will just be an inconvenient tangle of spaghetti.

My vang is run aft, and I've just run a jib downhaul for nasty weather. Jacklines get me to the mast, where my "pit" position is. Sometimes, the trip hazard of the spaghetti offsets the safety of running all lines to the cockpit.


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## SVTatia (May 7, 2007)

Alex W said:


> Neither of those are necessary in many reefing systems. Often the reef tack cringle is held down with line, just as the reef clew cringle is.
> 
> The sail should never be lashed to the boom, the reef knots should go around the sail cloth only. That is an optional step that makes it neater, but it's not mandatory.
> 
> ...


I guess if you are reefing for the afternoon that will be fine, but go a few days without the lashings (cringle, boom or under sail) and you may get other types of problems that will really send you to the the mast...


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## NewportNewbie (Jul 30, 2011)

Thks guys. Up to now I have not felt the need to have any lines in the cockpit that are not there. Cunningham maybe as my main likes it to help with luff tension. Boom vang. I can reach it now from the cockpit to tighten it but cannot loosen it without a trip out of the cockpit. Main halyard is just a thought but I have not really adjusted or reefed the main after it goes up. Spin halyard I thought maybe but I have not run a spin yet so it's just forward thinking. I think an auto pilot and instruments will be much higher on the list.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

Might as well install a solar panel while you are at it - the autopilot is a drain on the battery...


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

Lashing to the boom, day sailing or not, can cause issues that will also be much larger. The eyelets for the reef knots aren't reinforced in any way and can't handle any loads. Should your reefing clew line accidentally release you will destroy the sail.

I agree with you that if you are reefing for long periods of time that tidying up the bottom of the sail is good. However that barely fits under emergency reefing (the one time when having reefing gear in the cockpit is handy).

I don't see how the reefing hook holding down my reef cringle is any better than a piece of amsteel line holding down my reef cringle.


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## GMFL (Jun 9, 2010)

jameswilson29 said:


> We are about the same age. Once you start acting old, you are old. Once you start acting scared, you are scared.
> 
> To me, this is further evidence of the "wimpification" of our culture.


 LOve it! Or Pussification, which ever term you prefer..


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

> To me, this is further evidence of the "wimpification" of our culture.


I was actually thinking of leading all the control lines to the bow... wouldn't that be a hoot.:laugher


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

Put me in the old curmudgeon category. Sheets and running backs go to the cockpit. Everything else is at the mast. I have yet to sail a boat with lines aft that hadn't built up enough friction to require grinding about everything up with a winch, a time-consuming process. I can get everything done faster at the mast, including the time to get out there and back.

Further, and specific to my boat, the hard windscreen and dodger above keep most of the cockpit really dry. There is no way I'm going to punch holes in that for lines and let water through. 

Y'all can do as you please. I deliver enough boats in different configurations to be confident in my conclusions. Running halyards and adjustment lines into the cockpit is one of those ideas that seems superficially appealing but in reality turns out to reduce both safety and operational performance.

I feel that way about enclosures too so it is likely that the concepts are related.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

Everything is lead to the cockpit on my boat. 2 spin halyards, 2 genoa halyards, topping lift, spinnaker tack line/downhaul, main Halyard, and Baby stay adjustment. Reefing lines are still at the front of the boom, but I have never used them. All halyards can be directed to one of the 2 cabin top winches.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

SVAuspicious said:


> Put me in the old curmudgeon category. Sheets and running backs go to the cockpit. Everything else is at the mast. I have yet to sail a boat with lines aft that hadn't built up enough friction to require grinding about everything up with a winch, a time-consuming process. I can get everything done faster at the mast, including the time to get out there and back.
> 
> Further, and specific to my boat, the hard windscreen and dodger above keep most of the cockpit really dry. There is no way I'm going to punch holes in that for lines and let water through.
> 
> ...


I guess it is a matter of what you are used to. I have only sailed on a couple of boats with halyard winches on the mast, and I have always considered them relics from the past! 

On a boat the size of NewportNewbie's there should be no reason there is so much friction that a winch is required to hoist a sail, If there is, something is very wrong!

I like being able to make halyard adjustments to my main and genoa without even letting go of the helm! (ok, to be fair I do steer with my foot if I need both hands!)


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## NewportNewbie (Jul 30, 2011)

SchockT said:


> I guess it is a matter of what you are used to. I have only sailed on a couple of boats with halyard winches on the mast, and I have always considered them relics from the past!
> 
> On a boat the size of NewportNewbie's there should be no reason there is so much friction that a winch is required to hoist a sail, If there is, something is very wrong!
> 
> I like being able to make halyard adjustments to my main and genoa without even letting go of the helm! (ok, to be fair I do steer with my foot if I need both hands!)


SchockT...thats what I would like to do with my deck....I have 4 winches around the mast...ever miss those?


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## NewportNewbie (Jul 30, 2011)

Here are pics of my deck if anyone was wondering what the current setup is. I have plenty of extra line on all the halyards. What it looks like I need are deck organizers and rope clutches. Do I need to remove the existing winches and cleats?


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

NewportNewbie said:


> SchockT...thats what I would like to do with my deck....I have 4 winches around the mast...ever miss those?


Never had a winch farm, never want one!


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

SVAuspicious said:


> Put me in the old curmudgeon category. Sheets and running backs go to the cockpit. Everything else is at the mast. I have yet to sail a boat with lines aft that hadn't built up enough friction to require grinding about everything up with a winch, a time-consuming process. I can get everything done faster at the mast, including the time to get out there and back.
> 
> Further, and specific to my boat, the hard windscreen and dodger above keep most of the cockpit really dry. There is no way I'm going to punch holes in that for lines and let water through.
> 
> ...


I don't know, Dave... sounds like maybe only delivery captains believe in keeping everything at the mast, the avoidance of creating openings in the forward panels of dodgers, and the downsides of full cockpit enclosures... (grin)

Perhaps Andrew will weigh in on this, as well?

hellosailor referred to us as the Last Cowboys, elsewhere... Perhaps the Last Old At-the-Mast Curmudgeons might be more appropriate? (grin)


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Yup. That was weird.

I love my boat, feel in touch with nature, am relaxed and still love my furling lines and ice maker.


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## NewportNewbie (Jul 30, 2011)

Wow. I never thought this would be a debate. To me. Having lines handy means I can more safely and effectively sail the boat. Especially single and shorthanded. I test sailed a brand new Beneteau First 30 and all lines led act and it was almost silly how convenient it was. Yes alot of lines in the cockpit meant I had to be more conscious of keeping things neat but it was very nice. That's like saying dont get furlers, lazy jacks, instruments, engines, etc because when Columbus did it he didn't have all that. I see guys in the Vendee global or the Volvo Ocean race with all the technology in the world and I would never call them less of a sailor because of it.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Naturally, sailing draws the boating minimalists. Can't be a stinkpotter as a minimalist. You could row, I suppose.

But that doesn't mean all sailors need be minimalists. There is room on the ocean for everyone.


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## deltaten (Oct 10, 2012)

After having read and re-read this thread, I have come to the conclusion that I'd be better served placing a captain's chair on the cabin top near the mast and running a steering line to there. 

A couple of standing blocks to run the genny sheets back to the mast and a fairlead port and starboard for the 85% jib oughta do it. Add a couple more cleats to the mast and an old OB steering rig to the rudder shaft and I'll be set!

NOW I know the allure of a center-cockpit! LOL They *may* cost more; but save a ton of boat-bux on additional deck hardware and line!


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

The danger of running most/all lines to the cockpit is that you quickly 'get out of practice' in going forward in stink conditions. 

Plus, it puts an inordinate amount of crap into the cockpit which to trip over, etc. .... this from someone who has 35 control lines in one of his sportboat cockpits.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

RichH said:


> The danger of running most/all lines to the cockpit is that you quickly 'get out of practice' in going forward in stink conditions.
> 
> Plus, it puts an inordinate amount of crap into the cockpit which to trip over, etc. .... this from someone who has 35 control lines in one of his sportboat cockpits.


I suppose there is something to this, but I just had to go out in 8 footers and it came back without a second thought. I think it was like riding a bicycle, a really wobbly one. 

Tripping is another good point, although, tripping on the cabin top ain't fun either.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

I'm another with everything running aft. Can not find a good cabin top photo of the two sides........The one thing I am missing, the self steering mechanism/auto pilot! Other than tying off the tiller which works ok motoring, have not SH'd enogh to make this work as of yet. 

Reality is, both options work, but as mentioned, if you can get to things easy, you will adjust, if not.....this may not be good!

Marty


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

Yeah speaking of tripping hazards, what about all the old school winches around the base of the mast? I'll take a bit of spaghetti in the cockpit over those tripping hazards any day! And using a deck mounted winch at the base of the mast? ouch! My back hurts just thinking about it! I'll stick with the ergonomics of a winch near chest height thankyouverymuch!

As a racer I am a big fan of clean obstacle free decks that allow free movement without worrying about tripping over winches, let alone falling on one!

When we are under sail all of the excess halyards and tails get thrown down the companionway so they aren't an issue. I have sheet bags that snap in on 3 sides of the companionway hatch opening that I can use, although we usually don't bother.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

The issue with where to put the lines frankly is goofy IMHO. Be it they are looped and tied on to the mast base, or loped and tied at the back of the cabin really does not matter if one is off shore for some period of time where one does not want the tons of line on the cabin floor or equal. 

I typically do as SchockT, halyards during day sails/cruises are tossed below, or coiled and tied if I know that halyard or equal will be up for awhile. A jib halyard in a race where the Jib and spin halyard will go up and down reasonably quick they go down the hatch. Reef lines are almost always coiled up, unless it appears like we will need them. 

There is more than one way to handle the lose line issue. Be them in the back, or at the mast!


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

JonEisberg said:


> I don't know, Dave... sounds like maybe only delivery captains believe in keeping everything at the mast, the avoidance of creating openings in the forward panels of dodgers, and the downsides of full cockpit enclosures... (grin)


Perhaps that's it. We're among the few that can do side by side comparisons of large numbers of boats. My relationship with HR allows really apples to apples comparisons. We see the unintended consequences like water through the dodger.

Unfortunately many people have made the decision and borne the expense to follow through and are now committed to the point of view. It's hard to say "I did this thing and it was wrong" particularly if one's spouse is in hearing range. *grin*



NewportNewbie said:


> That's like saying dont get furlers, lazy jacks, instruments, engines, etc because when Columbus did it he didn't have all that. I see guys in the Vendee global or the Volvo Ocean race with all the technology in the world and I would never call them less of a sailor because of it.


Back in the day there were certainly those that didn't think highly of headsail furlers. Those furlers for those old enough to remember where pretty poor and jammed a lot. The world has progressed. Furlers are still not as reliable as hanks but by golly the convenience is worth the maintenance and the occasional repair, including at sea. How many spare sail ties do you have?



Minnewaska said:


> But that doesn't mean all sailors need be minimalists. There is room on the ocean for everyone.


I'm far from a minimalist. I have aircon and a generator and am not shy about using them when comfort dictates. I love the freezer on my boat. Autopilot is a life safety, mission critical system for me. I don't regret the decision of a full-batten main and halyards at the main AT ALL. It has nothing to do with minimalism. It is about safety and performance.

That doesn't mean I'm not shopping hard for one of the spiffy Anderson electric winches with the motor built into the base of the winch instead of below so I can spare my back (and Janet's elbow) on main and spinnaker hoists.



SchockT said:


> Yeah speaking of tripping hazards, what about all the old school winches around the base of the mast?


Really? I've never seen a winch on the cabin top at the mast. Mast winches are usually three to four feet up on the mast. They aren't a tripping hazard. They are among other things a handy step up to reach things as well as the lowest friction means we have for halyards and often outhauls and reefing lines.



SchockT said:


> When we are under sail all of the excess halyards and tails get thrown down the companionway so they aren't an issue. I have sheet bags that snap in on 3 sides of the companionway hatch opening that I can use, although we usually don't bother.


Sorry -- I don't put wet salty things in the cabin if it can be avoided at all. Yet another reason why lines aft aren't a good idea. Not to mention the tripping hazard for people trying to move in and out of the boat. Okay on a race boat with little to no housekeeping below. Bad idea for cruising.


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## c. breeze (Feb 18, 2013)

jameswilson29 said:


> We are about the same age. Once you start acting old, you are old. Once you start acting scared, you are scared.
> 
> To me, this is further evidence of the "wimpification" of our culture.
> 
> ...


I really like slick clean decks as well. SO if you route the lines aft, do it INSIDE, under the deck. IF you have a head liner, this is about the coolest arrangement ever. If you don't have headliner it is still better than the alternative- but...either way, keeping (or trying to keep) the boat dry is *challenging* or perhaps *frustrating* or even *irritating* with this setup.

Anyway- I did 3 months in the bajamas just lately in a boat with only the genoa furler, and sheets and the mainsheet led aft, thats all. I Was singlehanded and spent plenty time out sailing in "bad" weather, you know- windy... and I Was fine. I got knocked down one time (ok, dipped the spreaders), because I didn't reef- because I was "too scared" to go forward and deal with it. After that I went and reefed, as I was too scared not to go forward and reef.

Also- DO NOT lead back a reef line but not the halyard- move one, move them both.


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## NewportNewbie (Jul 30, 2011)

SVAuspicious said:


> Really? I've never seen a winch on the cabin top at the mast. Mast winches are usually three to four feet up on the mast. They aren't a tripping hazard. They are among other things a handy step up to reach things as well as the lowest friction means we have for halyards and often outhauls and reefing lines.


Now you have....


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

Once again all we can do is speak from our own experiences. In my world having slots in the dodger to allow lines to pass through is very commonplace. Then again in our waters it is not very common to have conditions where waves are hitting the dodger. Remember, we are talking about NewporNewbies boat which is a 30' coastal racer/cruiser, not some big blue water cruiser! Hell, I don't even HAVE a dodger! (Dodgers are for whimps! ) As for wet lines down the companionway, on my boat, and many others I sail on the halyards hang in such a way that they don't contact anything but the sole, which is going to get wet in foul weather anyway. It doesn't take long to wipe up when putting the boat away.True, if I had a fancier boat I might not do it, but as I said before, sheet bags are great for containing excess rope.

As far as coastal cruisers go, I have found that pretty much every modern boat I have looked at has controls and halyards lead aft, dodger or no. Winches on the mast are very uncommon. At least in my experience.


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## c. breeze (Feb 18, 2013)

that's a hell of a vang.


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## NewportNewbie (Jul 30, 2011)

I have no Dodger and will not get one for this boat. The previous owner who has sailed for 30+ years, delivered boats all up and down the west coast and who has had 2 Santana 30's and now a Schock 35 said he removed the headliner just before I bought it so he could run the lines aft, as he did on his previous Santana 30 and loved it. I decided to sail it the way it was then figure out what I wanted to do. On Santana 30's reefing is done very rarely, just not that big of a mainsail. So I have never reefed this boat. Never been on deck in bad weather. Well only a few times to clear lines caught on things. Only been out a few times in big wind, and never on deck. So the cockpit is where I sail from. I am mostly a singlehanded, or shorthanded sailor, and for me, the more I can do from the cockpit the better, especially when it comes to raising and lowering sails in harbor. I dont have an autopilot yet, so that will help, but in breezy conditions with current, its sometimes hard to point the boat, go to the deck, lower the sail, then run back and forth. If I can do it all from the cockpit...simple. When sailing, mainsheet, traveler sheets and jib sheets are all in the cockpit, but if I REALLY want to some sail adjusting, its not there. So I thought run the boom vang and cunningham back. That way I can more easily use those to adjust the shape of the main. Up to now its been hoist the main and whatever the shape is, sail with it. I really want to learn to make the boat go better in all conditions that I sail in, and running back and forth to the deck to adjust the vang doesnt seem logical. Same thing for cunningham. So if I am going to do some deck work to move a few things there, shoouldnt I do the main and spinn halyards too? Only sailed one other boat, and new Beneteau First 30 and all lines were in the cockpit. Raising and lowering the main was such a simple operation from the cockpit. So to the people saying keep the lines on deck because its more manly...or because I want to be comfortable on deck so dont move the lines because then I wont go there as often, or because of other reasons listed here...If money were no object, and you were buying a new boat. The lines were lead to the aft, because it seems alot of new boats are made that way now. Would you change it? Would you spend the money to make it the "old school" way for those reasons? Or would you say its easier, and more convenient so I will do it that way because it came that way? I get the whole idea, it came that way so I sail that way and it works for me. I get that, but some guys are pretty opinionated AGAINST lines led aft. I am trying to get to the reasons why. I am primarily a singlehanded sailor, so to me, the cockpit is the safest place on the boat, so staying there as much as possible seems like the safest thing I can do, as long as Im not overpowered and in big wind obviously. In harbor at the tiller seems to be the best place to be with the kind of traffic I deal with normally, so if I can do the stuff I usually do on deck from the cockpit, again to me thats safer.The downsides seem to be too many lines in the companionway when sailing...well I am usually alone...so, not an issue with me. Lines may get wet, and thus get the interior wet? Not an issue for me. More lines to deal with while sailing...thats an isse, but if I have sheet bags, then I dont see a problem because alot of the lines will normally be unused, so tied up, and put away. Losing my comfort level on deck. Ok, well I dont have a huge comfort level now, so maybe thats why I am thinking about this at all...lol...


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## c. breeze (Feb 18, 2013)

If I had 4 winches there would be 2 aft on the cabin top and 2 ON THE MAST, not at the foot of it. 

The ONLY thing I dislike about lines led aft ON TOP of the cabin top is that they are now all on the deck, which is only a "problem" in my mind. I do not like having things underfoot forward- granted, how often must one go forward with lines led aft... not alot, but i just like doing it- its my damn boat, Ill hang out on the whole thing, wherever i please...

Anyway Jeff H is right about one thing, if you route it back to the cockpit, you will use it. IF you dont', you might still, but you will have plenty of excuses not too. 

my old boat had the furler and sheets aft, nothing else. now I have 3 halyards, a cunningham, a vang and a reef all right there. and I use them all. the outhaul is also aft, but on the boom...

I dont' give a ratsass about any flopping lines, those get "stowed" its called seamanship- and so wet or dry they aren't an issue. 

I want my lines that are routed aft, INSIDE my cabin, basically running along the "ceiling"

As I havent a headliner to hide "gutters" under I have yet to come up with a satisfactory way to keep the cabin dry- as the holes the lines enter and exit from will leak in rain, spray or anything else.

once I come up with a set up I feel confident will keep water out I will move all hardware and lines UNDER the deck, rather than on it. look up- now imagine ropes running for and aft on the ceiling.

look down, imagine ropes under your feet.

Now look at the keyboard or iphone whatever, and imaging that all those ropes in either situation terminate right there, allowing you precise control over your marrionette, Now with a complete mental picture like that, which do you imagine to be preferable, lines on the "floor" or lines on the "ceiling"

I crewed a boat with "evertyhing" lead aft- and it was all under the deck, between it and the headliner, wiht "gutters" 5200ed in place under them, so any water that entered the boat, exited into the cockpit. it was awesome. clean usable decks, nothing to trip over etc, the bow guy certainly appreciated it. no clutter, a clean slick visual appearance. IT was HIGHLY functional in every way, and very eye catching and appealing. 

If it trims or shapes, you need access to it. especially if you race shorthanded, and I *think* I remember you lamenting lack of crew in a post or two.


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## Philzy3985 (Oct 20, 2012)

[/URL][/IMG]

I'll just chime in because the OP and I sail only 45 miles apart and both singlehand a lot. The picture above will show it would be difficult to make a spaghetti bowl in my cockpit, and I never have to leave the cockpit to change anything - That's probably because I don't use a spin, I have a furling jib, so those lines stay in a bag all the time. I've only have to adjust my boomvang once (The green/white line) so if I think I'll need it I just toss it forward over the hatch. So the only lines I have on the cockpit floor/bench is the mainsheet and traveler, then the jib sheets. I tuck the halyards in either of two large bags, and I usually tidy up the jib sheets after each tack so they won't tangle or get in the way for the next tack. Again, no racing, just casual day sailing.

I will say that having the main halyard running aft and previously installed autopilot has been very convenient. As I enter my main channel I point into the wind at idle RPM's in FWD gear, flick the autopilot on and yank on the halyard. It takes about 30 seconds to get the main all the way up, then I winch on it for the last few inches, then I have a clutch to lock it down. I can turn off the wind with or without autopilot and unfurl the jib and it's all done, smooth quiet sailing from there. I don't really use the autopilot when I'm out there unless I have to go down below for something, so battery draining isn't a concern.

Is there anything at the moment that causes you to shake your head every time you go sailing? If so, I'd make that / those the first things to address. That's sort of how I prioritize boat improvements.

If you decide to buy deck organizers and all the other goodies see what you can find at Minney's before ordering brand new ones!


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## c. breeze (Feb 18, 2013)

Philzy3985 said:


> [/URL][/IMG]
> 
> Is there anything at the moment that causes you to shake your head every time you go sailing? If so, I'd make that / those the first things to address. That's sort of how I prioritize boat improvements.
> 
> If you decide to buy deck organizers and all the other goodies see what you can find at Minney's before ordering brand new ones!


+1 used gear
+1 fix what bugs you first. otherwise its like sailing a charter boat, or someone elses boat all the time

and we all know, everyone else's boat, and especially charter boats are all rigged wrong.


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## knuterikt (Aug 7, 2006)

SVAuspicious said:


> Really? I've never seen a winch on the cabin top at the mast. Mast winches are usually three to four feet up on the mast. They aren't a tripping hazard. They are among other things a handy step up to reach things as well as the lowest friction means we have for halyards and often outhauls and reefing lines.


What about this?









I have even seen boats with two winches on each side of the mast.


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## NewportNewbie (Jul 30, 2011)

This got me thinking...what modern boats DONT have lines run aft? I looked and every new boat made has all lines running aft....at least the 30-35ft boast I looked at....so does everyone else have it wrong?? These are just a few...I didnt find any new yachts without lines running aft. No lines end at the mast on any of these new boats.

Junneau Sunfast 3200



















Elan 310



















Beneteau First 30










J-108









Hanse 345









Tartan 3400









Bavaria 33


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

NewportNewbie said:


> This got me thinking...what modern boats DONT have lines run aft? I looked and every new boat made has all lines running aft....at least the 30-35ft boast I looked at....so does everyone else have it wrong??


Does this mean you finally understand my "wimpification" comment?

Real men go to the mast. Period. End of story.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

Real men also have hank-on jibs.

Ice in the icebox, not refrigeration. Along with cold beer, which we drink while we are sailing, despite the COLREGS, ha, ha, ha!

We don't always keep watch - sometimes we are asleep.

And we often forget to wear our PFDs and harnesses.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Real men have one hand on the helm and another around their honey with a cocktail clenched in our fists. What are you guys wandering off to the mast doing up there alone?


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

NewportNewbie said:


> Now you have....


Golly. That isn't attractive. The worst of all worlds - tripping hazards, friction, AND you have to go forward. Why aren't those winches on the mast?

Helpful pictures. I understand. To my mind the answer should be moving the winches onto the mast and getting them off the cabin top and removing the blocks, not running all the way aft.



SchockT said:


> As for wet lines down the companionway, on my boat, and many others I sail on the halyards hang in such a way that they don't contact anything but the sole, which is going to get wet in foul weather anyway.


Different boats. I sail offshore and a lot of bluewater boats have carpet. I'll pull the piece at the base of the companionway when the weather is bad. Coming off watch crew go straight into the head (at the base of the companionway where God intended) to get out of foulies and dry off. Wet and salty stays on deck. Never below.

Wet below may work for racers and those with all fiberglass liner boats but not for cruisers - daysailers, weekenders, or longer - who consider spaces below to be living spaces.



NewportNewbie said:


> Only been out a few times in big wind, and never on deck. So the cockpit is where I sail from. I am mostly a singlehanded, or shorthanded sailor, and for me, the more I can do from the cockpit the better, especially when it comes to raising and lowering sails in harbor. I dont have an autopilot yet, so that will help, but in breezy conditions with current, its sometimes hard to point the boat, go to the deck, lower the sail, then run back and forth.


Get the autopilot first, then see if you still care about lines run aft.



knuterikt said:


> What about this?
> 
> I have even seen boats with two winches on each side of the mast.


Swan?



NewportNewbie said:


> This got me thinking...what modern boats DONT have lines run aft?


Just because the market drives manufacturers in a direction doesn't mean that the market is well informed. Lines aft are not a good idea in my opinion UNLESS your boat is small enough that your weight outboard and forward discernibly moves the boat. For boats that small you can talk me into it.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SVAuspicious said:


> .... Lines aft are not a good idea in my opinion UNLESS your boat is small enough that your weight outboard and forward discernibly moves the boat. For boats that small you can talk me into it.


Okay. What if the boat is big enough that there is plenty of room in the 15 ft cockpit for the lines and electric/hydraulic winches easily overcome the friction and the mast is 25+ ft away.


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## geronimotwo (Mar 19, 2013)

in addition to the suggestions listed (most of which i didn't read) i find a downhaul (for dousing sail) running to the cockpit invaluable for singlehanding.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

Minnewaska said:


> Okay. What if the boat is big enough that there is plenty of room in the 15 ft cockpit for the lines and electric/hydraulic winches easily overcome the friction and the mast is 25+ ft away.


Outstanding question. Truly outstanding.

You still have the issue of water through the dodger which is fundamentally bad.

I have one electric winch and am shopping for a second. Still, there are a lot of ways to break your boat with electric or hydraulic winches. Have you ever seen a furler explode? I have.

It is too easy to confuse friction with an overload due to some other factor.

In my opinion it takes the experience of grinding against a load to feel the impact (or see it in the reduction of line diameter) of a problem before you break something.

I have lots of stories. *grin*


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Have had every line run aft on last 2 boats and will on new one.
1.if possible use similar color lines for same function- first reefs variation of red,second green etc. Think about how you are going to use winchs,line clutches etc. I have two winches on cabin top. One is powered. Halyards go on that side. Mark lines at usual positons with colored yarn (can feel it in the dark). For example-main halyard marked at first,second and third reef.
2.keep all turns in lines to mimimal degree of acuteness- hugely decreases friction.
3. make sure you can clear kinks in lines quickly. Lines not under load should be pulled aft so no slack -less likely to kink. Periodically take lines out to get rid of any twist in them from use.

Have hard dodger. Issue of getting water in from "holes" trivial as coil lines and dump them in that space. Lines act as buffer and "holes" are part of a limber hole system for dodger. Always have jack lines out when singling. Still have mast pulpit and grab rails on side of dodger and on deck. Bringing everything aft doesn't mean you won't need to go forward time to time.
I'm a wuss and proud of it.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

What is this big concern with water through the dodger? We are talking about a narrow slot at the bottom of the dodger that allows lines to pass through. The only way you are going to have significant water coming through that opening is if you are punching your bow into waves and have green waves washing the length of your decks! I am guessing if you are sailing in conditions like that you are gonna get wet anyway! And if you have to go up to the mast to make adjustments? You are going to get REALLY wet! Sailing is a water sport! 

Power winches? Carpet? Enclosed cockpits? Might as well just buy a power boat!:laugher


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SVAuspicious said:


> Outstanding question. Truly outstanding.
> 
> You still have the issue of water through the dodger which is fundamentally bad.
> 
> ...


Not following what you mean by water through the dodger.

Ironically, the last block that let go on me was in the BVI while I was manually grinding. However, I think the clevis pin backed out of the shackle.


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## c. breeze (Feb 18, 2013)

The interesting thing here is that I've never seen or heard people argue so hard against lines led aft. I recognize that some of it is tounge in cheek...

But it is Proving my point- everyone else's boat is always rigged wrong. It's a miracle y'all can even sail them.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

Minnewaska said:


> Not following what you mean by water through the dodger.


Not to speak for Jon, but what I think he is talking about and what I know I am talking about is water sluicing over the deck that with a decent dodger would be kept out of at least the forward part of the cockpit. With lines through or under the dodger there WILL be solid water coming through. That puts electronics under the dodger at risk, it makes paper charts and other documents untenable in the cockpit, and increases the probability of water into the boat down the companionway.



c. breeze said:


> The interesting thing here is that I've never seen or heard people argue so hard against lines led aft. I recognize that some of it is tounge in cheek...


Here I know I can speak for Jon -- neither of us are speaking tongue in cheek. We are serious about this. Our many thousands of professional miles at sea led to our conclusions.

If you want to plot your own course that is certainly your right and privilege. Neither of us will try to talk you out of it. Both of us are old curmudgeons (emphasis on both words) and manage to get to the mast pretty comfortably.

Go ahead and do your own thing on your boat. The question was asked and everyone has a chance to weigh in. It's clear the opinion of the professional delivery skippers is in the minority. Okey dokey.


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## c. breeze (Feb 18, 2013)

I was talking about Jameswilson- his was tounge in cheek. You were decidedly vehement.

and lo those many pro miles you keep referencing go even further to proving the point, EVERYONE ELSE'S boat is ALWAYS rigged wrong.

I've only a few "pro miles" mostly I sail on my own behalf- on my own boat- you know- the only damn boat in the ocean that is rigged properly.

If I was on other peoples boats all the time I would rather just have it all terminate at the mast too- rather than constantly be sorting out what line goes where. 

sometimes I want a dodger.

If had one I would be more sensitive to the issue of water coming through it, in fact it would make me IRATE- the whole point of the thing being to keep water OUT... equipment that cant function properly either by design, or by "meddling" IE leaving zippers open or whatever for lines to come through, drives me nuts.

It always brings a smile when I hear about or see the elderly getting along so well- Keep up the good work, youre only as old as you feel?act? whichever.


I've tried it both ways, and like self tailing winches- I've no axe to grind either way, it seems I've been able to somehow manage on a variety of my own boats (all of which were proper, and yet somehow rigged several different ways) and other peoples to A) get there and back "safely" usually quickly as well
and B) have a reasonably good time, reefing forward or from the cockpit, etc.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Can someone explain what a dodger some of you talk about?!?!?!?!?!?

Found a semi decent shot of my boat with the lines run aft!









I would also point out, the SF3200 was designed as an ocean going racing boat. Either to be single or double handed. As such, everything is reasonably close to the skipper! ie lines run aft so one does not have to go forward, be that good or bad!

Marty


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

c. breeze said:


> I want my lines that are routed aft, INSIDE my cabin, basically running along the "ceiling"
> 
> As I havent a headliner to hide "gutters" under I have yet to come up with a satisfactory way to keep the cabin dry- as the holes the lines enter and exit from will leak in rain, spray or anything else.
> 
> ...


I'm having a hard time picturing how that would work on anything but a fairly small boat...

How does one configure the turning blocks inside the cabin, without admitting water? Or, eliminating friction in the case of sealed conduits without turning blocks?

How were the lines led to winches, once exiting the cabin? Again, without creating issues with increased friction, or chafe?

One of the worst design flaws/setups I have EVER seen, was on an older Hunter that had lines led aft through conduits/covers on the deckhouse, under the dodger, and emerging on each side of the companionway... Guess it never occurred to anyone what might happen when green water came rolling aft on deck... I quickly found out one December night on LI Sound, the amount of water that cascaded down the companionway, even with the hatch closed, was simply beyond belief, it was like a freakin' waterfall...

Ran a few Trintellas that led lines aft through the curved stainless handrails... Very sleek and sexy, garnered lots of Oohs & Ahhs at the boat shows... Yet, in practice, it was astonishing how much additional friction it added to the setup, a more elegant recipe for breaking stuff with an electric cockpit winch has rarely been devised... (grin)

Especially when the main halyard is fed to a winch on one side of the cockpit, and the Leisure-Furl downhall is fed to the opposite side, making it very impractical/difficult for one person to manage both, and gauge the relative tension/resistance when hoisting or reefing the main... No need to ask me how I know this, of course...


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## c. breeze (Feb 18, 2013)

The holes in the deck- had basically like roulon grommets that the lines led through to the turning blocks. At each end. So where they entered at the base if the mast- and remerged at the cabintop. 

The only thing making any contact with the lines other than the hardware you alway see were the rulon or whatever it was grommets. The - what I've been calling gutters- weren't in contact with the lines anywhere- and there were scuppers that drained them into the cockpit. The added friction was minimal over a conventional aft setup. I didn't notice it at all. I also dislike the electric winches. This was a bene 456- not really that small. It had an electric winch for the main- and not feeling what was happening nerve racked me all the time. I didn't like it. I'd rather grind grind grind. But I'm 34 and way more fit than most of the country. Or most humans. 

I find the added friction of lines led aft hasn't ever been sufficient for me to bother to complain about it. It's far less significant than the difference between a boom that's end or mid sheeted. If it were significant like that I'd gripe. 

I leave the cockpit anyway. And for me the fact that I've got "cluttered" decks is way way more a drawback than a tiny bit of additional friction from routing everything aft. Regardless of te way one goes about it. 

The friction feels way different than any stress or strain on equipment- so it diesn affect the lines ability to telegraph trouble to me. 

I've got no idea how long that boat was tinkered with til it was "right" but it was... Right. It made a lasting impression on me- "when I grow up my boat is going to be just like this one" the guy who Owned the boat said he had seen it done on a Swan 61? A big swan. He was a real German freres fan. But it's hard to fault a guy for that. Maybe it was a halberg rassy. Anyway- that where he saw it done and replicated it. I don't know if he ever saw exactly how it was done on that boat or if he just had to wing it. But it was well executed. 

Hahaha.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

JonEisberg said:


> I'm having a hard time picturing how that would work on anything but a fairly small boat...
> 
> How does one configure the turning blocks inside the cabin, without admitting water? Or, eliminating friction in the case of sealed conduits without turning blocks?
> 
> How were the lines led to winches, once exiting the cabin? Again, without creating issues with increased friction, or chafe?


I'm not following the difficulty. Lines pass thru a swivel block at the base of the mast, over to a deck organizer where they are redirected through a conduit and straight back to clutches right in front of the cabin top winches. No chafing, no turning blocks inside the cabin.



> One of the worst design flaws/setups I have EVER seen, was on an older Hunter that had lines led aft through conduits/covers on the deckhouse, under the dodger, and emerging on each side of the companionway... Guess it never occurred to anyone what might happen when green water came rolling aft on deck... I quickly found out one December night on LI Sound, the amount of water that cascaded down the companionway, even with the hatch closed, was simply beyond belief, it was like a freakin' waterfall...


Wouldn't this have also been the case without lines run through a conduit, particularly if one does not have a dodger?

All of our cabin top lines run through a conduit and it would allow water in, if it got up that high. We've taken some serious water over the deck, even washing out and salt water crusting the dodger, but significant water through the conduit has never been an issue. Must have been some, but not memorable. I'm also certain, with the hatch closed, nothing would enter the companionway. This I know, as I once delivered her without her dodger in near 40 kt winds. Plenty of water into the cockpit.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Electronics just above sliding hatch over companionway in coaming. One set there,one set at nav station, one set at wheel. Lines at gradual angle from foot of mast. All approaches to mast free of lines. Lines above deck. Can be cleared,examined or re -reeved easily. Hard dodger designed with running lines aft in mind. With autopilot remote can run boat without ever getting out from under the dodger except for sheets.. No green water issues.Do what ever floats your boat but nice to sit under dodger with honey below and be in touch with each other and out of the wind and weather. Nice to not have to wake anyone up to reef or hoist. Have rule no one goes forward without someone watching them whenever there is more than one on the boat. Respect the Captain's opinion - just see it differently. Respect their appreciation of KISS. Chart book and cruising guide only come up at landfall. Never go overboard.If wet can dry-if overboard gone. The race boats seem to have no trouble going around the world by themselves with everything brought aft.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

c. breeze said:


> I was talking about Jameswilson- his was tounge in cheek. You were decidedly vehement.


I guess I was, wasn't I? I intended to be clear. *grin* I overachieved.



c. breeze said:


> and lo those many pro miles you keep referencing go even further to proving the point, EVERYONE ELSE'S boat is ALWAYS rigged wrong.


Well, not entirely. I've sailed a lot of great boats. The ones that stick in my mind are the ones that had some silly characteristic. There are lots of "right" answers but even more "wrong" or at least misguided ones.



JonEisberg said:


> How does one configure the turning blocks inside the cabin, without admitting water? Or, eliminating friction in the case of sealed conduits without turning blocks?


I've seen some pretty cool looking underdeck leads on Jeanneau cruisers. The friction is no greater than any other boat with lines led aft but of course are not nearly so nice as one with lines at the mast.



c. breeze said:


> I find the added friction of lines led aft hasn't ever been sufficient for me to bother to complain about it. It's far less significant than the difference between a boom that's end or mid sheeted. If it were significant like that I'd gripe.


You must be pretty strong. In my experience with lines at the mast I can get the main to the masthead on boats up to 40' and tension the halyard with a winch. On boats to about 50' I can usually get the main to within 8 or 10' and grind it the rest of the way. I can't get anything like that sort of hoist by hand with lines led aft.

I'm 52 in good health and moderate condition.

Oh - at the risk of vehemence again, God intended sailboats have end-boom sheeting. *grin* There's a Psalm or a Commandment or something.



c. breeze said:


> Owned the boat said he had seen it done on a Swan 61? A big swan. He was a real German freres fan. But it's hard to fault a guy for that. Maybe it was a halberg rassy. Anyway- that where he saw it done and replicated it. I don't know if he ever saw exactly how it was done on that boat or if he just had to wing it. But it was well executed.


I think German Frers is one of the best naval architects of our age.


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## c. breeze (Feb 18, 2013)

SVAuspicious said:


> I guess I was, wasn't I? I intended to be clear. *grin* I overachieved.
> 
> Well, not entirely. I've sailed a lot of great boats. The ones that stick in my mind are the ones that had some silly characteristic. There are lots of "right" answers but even more "wrong" or at least misguided ones.
> 
> ...


I'm pretty strong. For sure. I was a ranger for 8 years, and Itgoes with the territory. I have this real real bad tartan 27 and pearson renegade fetish, so I'm pretty enthralled with bill shaW's boats these days- but... I can look at freres boats for days- and not that I want my pop to die- but I do want him toget one so when he passes.... Hahahaha.

I'm not sure if there's actually a biblical commandment regarding end boom sheeting- but I'm confident that my boat- with end boom sheeting- will not inspire the wrath of the almighty, and thus be spared the ordeal of a lightning strike.... Whereas my pops cal- well he may not be so lucky.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

agree with SVA. Mid boom mainsheet seems to put more twist in the line and adds friction but with modern boats being more dependent on the main for sail the pleasure of not having a traveler in the cockpit outweighs the drawbacks of mid boom set up IMHO. Sometimes yank on the halyards up by the mast as some one else yanks from the cockpit. Nice to be able to have two people yank on it which is easy when LINES BROUGHT AFT (grin).


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

c. breeze said:


> The holes in the deck- had basically like roulon grommets that the lines led through to the turning blocks. At each end. So where they entered at the base if the mast- and remerged at the cabintop.
> 
> The only thing making any contact with the lines other than the hardware you alway see were the rulon or whatever it was grommets. The - what I've been calling gutters- weren't in contact with the lines anywhere- and there were scuppers that drained them into the cockpit. The added friction was minimal over a conventional aft setup. I didn't notice it at all. I also dislike the electric winches. This was a bene 456- not really that small. It had an electric winch for the main- and not feeling what was happening nerve racked me all the time. I didn't like it. I'd rather grind grind grind. But I'm 34 and way more fit than most of the country. Or most humans.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the explanation, but I guess it must just be me... I remain completely baffled by the rationale for creating numerous openings in the cabin top, simply to run lines aft _inside the cabin_ for a relatively short distance, and then exiting up to the cabin top again, when they could seemingly be led so much more directly along the cabin top itself...

In an amusing coincidence, the April issue of SAIL addresses the very issue of running lines aft... Editor Peter Neilsen's column sings the praises of keeping such things simple, and in a Viewpoint column on page 26, Ben Ericksen explains "Why I'll Never Lead My Lines Aft"...

So, I guess perhaps Dave/Auspicious and I are not the only dinosaurs out there with such a minority point of view, after all... (grin)


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## c. breeze (Feb 18, 2013)

Yeah- the way you explain it really emphasizes how ridiculous it is. Yes you're right too- like so many things sailboat related it doesn't make sense. Making life harder than it needs to be, in order to meet an aesthetic preference. That's probably the essence of sailing.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

I don't think I would want to mess around with penetrating the deck into the cabin twice in order to run halyards internally. That is just asking for trouble both with water ingress and a serious PIA factor when it comes to removing and re-running halyards in future. Some manufacturers are now running the halyards in channels with removable covers on them which looks nice if it is well executed. At least that way you get the clean decks without penetrating into the cabin.

There really is not much more friction with the halyard lead aft. It makes 1 90deg turn at the base, and then deflects through the deck organizer. There is a bit more friction pulling the halyard through the closed spinlock clutch, but I can still hand-over-hand my sails to the masthead. If for some reason there is more friction, I can 2-hand it, with the clutch holding between pulls. If I have crew on board, I can go to the mast and jump the halyard, while someone tails from the pit. When I am hoisting the spinnaker, I can steer with the tiller between my legs while I hand-over-hand the chute up, and then grab the spin sheet, trim in, and I am sailing. That is infinitely more efficient than having to run up to the mast for the hoist, and then run back to the cockpit to trim and steer. There is way more potential for something to go wrong if you are forced to tie off the tiller or use an autohelm (which I don't have) and run around the boat.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

SVAuspicious said:


> > Originally Posted by JonEisberg
> > How does one configure the turning blocks inside the cabin, without admitting water? Or, eliminating friction in the case of sealed conduits without turning blocks?
> 
> 
> I've seen some pretty cool looking underdeck leads on Jeanneau cruisers. The friction is no greater than any other boat with lines led aft but of course are not nearly so nice as one with lines at the mast.


Jeanneau has actually built boats with lines led aft _inside the cabin_???

I must confess, I've never seen such a thing, nor even heard of it until this thread...


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

JonEisberg said:


> Jeanneau has actually built boats with lines led aft _inside the cabin_???
> 
> I must confess, I've never seen such a thing, nor even heard of it until this thread...


No, they run through a tunnel. They don't actually penetrate the deck, they are just covered up. It does look as though the tunnels could be quite a water scoop if you punched through a green wave. Could be quite a jet of water shooting out the back end! I don't imagine it would happen very often though.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

JonEisberg said:


> ....... I remain completely baffled by the rationale for creating numerous openings in the cabin top, simply to run lines aft _inside the cabin_ for a relatively short distance, and then exiting up to the cabin top again, when they could seemingly be led so much more directly along the cabin top itself.........


Now I get your point. I didn't realize you were objecting to an actual deck penetration into the cabin. I agree, that sounds undesirable. Sort of like leaving a foredeck hatch open, which I recall you trying to say.

Ours run from the mast base, over a window that you wouldn't stand on, though a deck organizer and then into a tunnel that exits inside the dodger.

Technically, the lines run through a molded ditch in the cabin top and a piece of fiberglass is screwed down on top to make it flush with the rest. I've never taken than cap off, I bet its filthy in there.


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## c. breeze (Feb 18, 2013)

You need to be punching through more green waves- really keep those well rinsed.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

c. breeze said:


> You need to be punching through more green waves- really keep those well rinsed.


Not like I haven't tried.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

Minnewaska said:


> Technically, the lines run through a molded ditch in the cabin top and a piece of fiberglass is screwed down on top to make it flush with the rest. I've never taken than cap off, I bet its filthy in there.


Bird's nests? Leaves? Built up salt? That handkerchief you thought you lost?

Open that thing up, clean it out, and lube anything in there that moves. Repeat annually. *grin*


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

SVAuspicious said:


> Bird's nests? Leaves? Built up salt? That handkerchief you thought you lost?
> 
> Open that thing up, clean it out, and lube anything in there that moves. Repeat annually. *grin*


.. same goes for any storm hoods over sliding companionway hatches...


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## NewportNewbie (Jul 30, 2011)

JonEisberg said:


> In an amusing coincidence, the April issue of SAIL addresses the very issue of running lines aft... Editor Peter Neilsen's column sings the praises of keeping such things simple, and in a Viewpoint column on page 26, Ben Ericksen explains "Why I'll Never Lead My Lines Aft"...
> 
> So, I guess perhaps Dave/Auspicious and I are not the only dinosaurs out there with such a minority point of view, after all... (grin)


I'm gonna pick that up today. Funny. I googled "sail magazine" and "lines aft" and found about 4 articles from previous issues about why you should and how to do it. Looks like they are trying to sell magazines by appealing to both sides of such a heated argument lol.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

Yeah it's funny, I didn't think it was really a debate, because most manufacturers just don't put winches on the mast anymore. I have only ever seen that configuration on really old boats that haven't been updated. I guess some people are just traditionalists that don't want to embrace these "new-fangled" ideas!


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## One (Mar 20, 2013)

SchockT said:


> Yeah it's funny, I didn't think it was really a debate, because most manufacturers just don't put winches on the mast anymore. I have only ever seen that configuration on really old boats that haven't been updated. I guess some people are just traditionalists that don't want to embrace these "new-fangled" ideas!


Let me know when you have replaced all wire and chainplates with dyneema and carbon :laugher


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

SchockT said:


> > Originally Posted by JonEisberg
> > Jeanneau has actually built boats with lines led aft inside the cabin???
> >
> > I must confess, I've never seen such a thing, nor even heard of it until this thread...
> ...


I was referring to the arrangement described by c. breeze...

Of course, an assortment of builders have been using variations of the configuration you've illustrated for years... The Hunter I referenced above is probably 20 years old, by now...



SchockT said:


> Yeah it's funny, I didn't think it was really a debate, because most manufacturers just don't put winches on the mast anymore. I have only ever seen that configuration on really old boats that haven't been updated. I guess some people are just traditionalists that don't want to embrace these "new-fangled" ideas!


Yeah, I suppose it's time for me to trade up to a Dock 'n Go Joystick control system, for sure... (grin)


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

JonEisberg said:


> I was referring to the arrangement described by c. breeze...
> 
> Of course, an assortment of builders have been using variations of the configuration you've illustrated for years... The Hunter I referenced above is probably 20 years old, by now...
> 
> ...


You gotta admit though...thrust vectoring is pretty slick! Not like those old-school bow thrusters that the traditionalists are so fond of!


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Square riggers think Sloops are cheating. Sloops think Bow thrusters are cheating. Bow thrusters think joy-stick docking is cheating. Very funny.

I'm not a fan of joy-stick docking only because it make you look like a stinkpotter.


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## One (Mar 20, 2013)

If I were a motorboater kind of guy, I'd jump on the Volvo IPS system in a heartbeat. A Targa 42 with twin IPS drives would be a lot of fun, I think.

I'm not a motorboater, though.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

SchockT said:


> > Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
> >
> > Yeah, I suppose it's time for me to trade up to a Dock 'n Go Joystick control system, for sure... (grin)
> >
> ...


Yeah I suppose that option is $30K well spent, if it gets your wife/girlfriend to drape herself all over you like you're the Ultimate Docking God... Hell, the only thing that boat is lacking is the side-by-side bathtubs from the Cialis ads on the foredeck...

You do have to love the way the boat ties itself up automatically, however... (grin)


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

JonEisberg said:


> Yeah I suppose that option is $30K well spent, if it gets your wife/girlfriend to drape herself all over you like you're the Ultimate Docking God... Hell, the only thing that boat is lacking is the side-by-side bathtubs from the Cialis ads on the foredeck...
> 
> You do have to love the way the boat ties itself up automatically, however... (grin)


Yeah I got a chuckle out of the magic dock lines! I might consider the $30k if it did THAT too!


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## c. breeze (Feb 18, 2013)

I finally watched it. The only thing that bugs me is them havin the kid "help" like grandpa is teaching him how to dock- because that is not how it's done. That and not having any sails on the boat. 

I run into old people all the time- not o the 1000's of ocean miles curmudgeon school- who simply can't handle their boat. They worked there ass off to retire and go cruising- and found out- oh hey- I'm just not as physically capable of all this as I thought I would be. 

So they do things like use only one anchor when they need two- because only one is on a windless. And they end up grounded with rudder fairin snapped off and quadrant broken- so when they do start floating again- all they can do is call for help. 

They jam there sails in there booms and masts. (I probably would too- but it's hard to do with jiffy reefing)

They get water in their diesel and can't make the motor run, and can't replace the racor seperator. 

Ill see more of that every year- all because of stuff like this. 


This add is a complete affront. It encourages destroying the foundation of seamanship on which the future of sailing will be built- by poisoning the minds of children with even more shortcuts and easy ways out. And it puts even more relatively helpless old people into boats that they absolutely can not actually handle- because they have the illusion of control provided by yet another "amenity" sadly there will be an entire navy of people out there using it as a crutch rather than an amenity. 

Somebody put a tiller in that kids hand for Christ sake.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

C.Breeze I'm one of those who "worked my ass off to retire". Maybe I'm not as physically able- I know my endurance sucks and my joints aren't too great either. But I've managed to go to Bermuda (won once) several times ( did it with celestial once too) and from N.E. to the Carribean a few times and have been through a number of storms. What I see more often then infirm elderly are arrogant youth who have yet to gain the humility and wisdom that comes with age.Last summer came in on the launch with a couple in their 80's. They needed help getting in and alot of help getting their kit off their boat into the launch as well. They had big smiles as they just came back from a two week cruise. Wife was on me as it took 3 passes for them to pick up their mooring. Watched closely and was ready to help but they did it themselves. ?Isn't that what it's about? They made everyone on the launch smile and it was a great day to be alive.
Suspect over 35+yrs. I have owned a few more boats than you have children. My new boat is the first I will have that has power winches and a bow thruster. Something new to learn.
Find your comment age-ist and an expression of your own inadequacies. Plase keep your hateful thoughts to your self. Would appreciate further comments about running rigging brought aft as my crippled old knees and fat gut make it difficult to go forward in a blow.
People of all ages learn from experience and being taught.Doesn't matter if they get it at 30 or 60. If you are skilled perhaps you can put joy in this world by sharing your skills not your insults.Show them how to use the Racor, explain about anchoring and snubbing etc.
They are putting Z drives on ships now too. Guess their Masters don't know any seamanship either. Lighten up - It's an ad. ?Think the kid was his son not his grandson. (GRIN)


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

my crippled old knees are abe to go forwardon my flat wide decks, even the 20 ft from cockpit to main mast. i have a nice coachhouse roof under my main boom,and is good for standing on top of while raising main sail, when it is used. all easy and not dangerous. at least not more dangerous than crossing a street in lost angeles...at dusk....downtown..
to my cockpit go only my jib furling line and sheets. on my coach house roof aft, my main sheet. abaft my helm seat, which is a comfy sofa, is my mizzen sheet. 
i usually sola with only jib and mizzen, so i dont have to fool around with going forward. 
and i have a great autopilot. boat tracks perfect and for loong time--- i have no worries about going forward in 30 ft seas--btdt...wasnt a big deal....
tried to go forward in gom in a 37 seidelmann--fuggeddaboudit. and those were only 8 ft seas.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Zeehag - that's great. Your boat is set up with human ergonomics in mind and a comfortable motion from what you describe. Set my boat up to run from under the hard dodger but in a fashion that should any of the "new fangled" devices fail I could still do it the old fashion way. Find the more you bring aft the easier it is to shape your sails so the more likely you will do it. Rerigged my last boat so outhaul and kicking strap were brought aft ( had single hander's package to start). Found I was shaping the main for point of sail even when just day sailing around Buzzards Bay for an hour or two,


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

outbound--if i shaped my mainsail, i wouldnt gain any boat speed...is a brick...i ihave a nicely baggy , slightly too small main sail which is fully battened. my mizzen is super bag, and jib is ok. boat sails and doesnt do bad --i dont worry about trimming as she is slow anyway--i get 3 whole kts in a 6 kt breeze......mebbe....downhill...


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Z-Sounds like you have fun and stress free sailing. Me - I get "sit down already" from the admiral at least once a day.


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

hahaha--i get open can momms and as i have a wonderfully comfy helm seat-is a sofa!
i go many hundred miles at a time....is a lil different than a nice stressfull. err, stress relieving daysail.....and i am sooo not in a hurry when i am out there....


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## c. breeze (Feb 18, 2013)

outbound said:


> C.Breeze I'm one of those who "worked my ass off to retire". Maybe I'm not as physically able- I know my endurance sucks and my joints aren't too great either. But I've managed to go to Bermuda (won once) several times ( did it with celestial once too) and from N.E. to the Carribean a few times and have been through a number of storms. What I see more often then infirm elderly are arrogant youth who have yet to gain the humility and wisdom that comes with age.Last summer came in on the launch with a couple in their 80's. They needed help getting in and alot of help getting their kit off their boat into the launch as well. They had big smiles as they just came back from a two week cruise. Wife was on me as it took 3 passes for them to pick up their mooring. Watched closely and was ready to help but they did it themselves. ?Isn't that what it's about? They made everyone on the launch smile and it was a great day to be alive.
> Suspect over 35+yrs. I have owned a few more boats than you have children. My new boat is the first I will have that has power winches and a bow thruster. Something new to learn.
> Find your comment age-ist and an expression of your own inadequacies. Plase keep your hateful thoughts to your self. Would appreciate further comments about running rigging brought aft as my crippled old knees and fat gut make it difficult to go forward in a blow.
> People of all ages learn from experience and being taught.Doesn't matter if they get it at 30 or 60. If you are skilled perhaps you can put joy in this world by sharing your skills not your insults.Show them how to use the Racor, explain about anchoring and snubbing etc.
> They are putting Z drives on ships now too. Guess their Masters don't know any seamanship either. Lighten up - It's an ad. ?Think the kid was his son not his grandson. (GRIN)


Well. It would seem that though you're ability to read and process information is, at this point questionable, you fit into 1000s of ocean miles school of curmudgeonry- specifically referenced in my post.

Anyway, I appreciate the assumption that I leave everyone I meet whose background didn't provide the proper experience base for their travels, or whose fitness level is questionable, helpless. In fact I typically try to get them to sign a salvage agreement and then offer assistance. (Joke, referencing towboatus thread)

Tell you what- try to tuck up that Viagra inspired boner- and spare me the righteous indignation. If you want to read the post- and respond to the points I made- feel free, if not that's fine too. If you think that that's how teaching a kid to sail is done- fine I hope you have kids and grand kids to share that particular joy with. If you do not think that "ammenities" like that result in more and more less qualified people taking sailboats places they should not- and using those "ammenities" as a crutch, to compensate for lack of proper skills- then support that argument.

sailors use the stuff they can get to, lines led aft= sailing your boat better

I have met tons of people with in boom or in mast furling. Of these probably 1/3 had a sailing background and knew how to tie in a reef. IN MY EXPERIENCE (limited as it is by age and the inordinate amount of time I've given up for others instead of frittering it away on fun like sailing). WHAT I HAVE SEEN WITH MY EYES. AND HEARD "from the horses mouth" is that typical users of that crap use it as a substitute for actual sailing "no how"

So while lines led aft leads to an individual sailing better- I contend that the other "nonsense" tends toward A) making one complacent and B) in many contexts, keeps one from ever becoming a "sailor"

I'm standing by with a litany of real life anecdotes to support my assertations. 
None of which cast aspersions on your character. Now listen- I'm a real easygoing guy. After 39 months in Iraq and Afg I have a pretty good perspective on what's important and what's not. When you address someone directly- without any knowledge of who or what they are- its wise not too get on too high a horse. Usually it's really safe- and gives one an insulated feeling of superiority to call someone's character into question online.

But sometimes....

They are sitting in the same marina, using the same wifi- and look over at there spouse to tell o how they let some jerk really have it on sailnet. Only to turn around and find the scariest person in the world standing by for an explanation...

Old timer- I've said nothing here that I wouldn't or couldn't support in a fAce to face conversation. I have serious doubts that you have the gall to address me face to face in such fashion however. Whether it be from a real human desire to avoid confrontation or from having been raised right.


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## c. breeze (Feb 18, 2013)

I don't need to speak up in defense of young people. I find them as shameful as the rest of the species.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

C.Breeze
Whether you meant it or not your post was percieved as confrontational. Once this attitude is taken or percieved the transfer of information becomes more problematic. I viewed your post as age-ist. Just re read it and still do. I've watched the same crowd a you and see the same things. It seems there are two main species. Those who know life is a contnuous learning curve and appreciate help up the hill and those who do not. In my experience age has little to do with it. I honor your service (remember.- as Dylan said- we all serve someone). Again feel you made preconcieved judgments in your current post.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Investigated in boom furling at some length. Already had in mast furler jam on a trip back from Bermuda so had no interest. You give up some sail shaping but both the schaefer and leisurefurl are now quite reliable with the bugs worked out. If that's what it takes to keep you on the water go for it. Personally, very conservative. Went with singleline reefing and a power winch. Therefore, don't have to head into the wind to reef and have mainsail set up so can tie in a reef even if system fails. Still give up some sail shaping. Think designing or modifying your boat for personal convenience is great as long as you realize you need to be able to run the boat if that system fails.


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## c. breeze (Feb 18, 2013)

I couldn't possibly have preconceived these notions. I was completely ignorant to the fact that people who had never sailed before retired, took some ASA classes, and went cruising like it was no big deal. 


My preconceived notion was that most of the "mature" people who retired an took off cruising had a somewhat nautical background, and had spent years sailing, honing a passion for it to the point that they were willing to toss off the amenities of land life in order to spend there golden years dealing with all the inconveniences of cruising. That's a preconceived notion. 

I have no statistics which would illuminate the percentage of reasonably seasoned sailors with a fairly broad base o sailing knowledge and experience- vs those that are of the other school, I'm sure the skilled far outnumber the other- but who is it that you encounter most alon the way? The squeaky wheel gets the grease. The competent folks aren't out making an impression because they are handling there business. 

So, my new notion- radically different from my former and preconceived notion, is that the typical user of these amenities ie joystick docking, in boom/ in mast furling, electric winches (other than main halyard, which just seems to be the norm now), bow thrusters, etc is typically using them as a crutch to shore up a facet of seamanship in which said user is deficient. 

I also specifically stated that there are in fact plenty of those with 1000s of sea miles. You know- the ones that fit my "preconceived notion"

Need I really go into a dissertation on the issues with younger sailors? It's not relevant to the issue I raised which was with a couple things- 1) sailboat commercials should feature boats with sails on them. 2) what a pathetic attempt at inspiring feelings of warmth at the idea of getting children involved in sailing- here Johnny its not quite as modern As your Xbox- it's more like playing the video games at the pizza place, the ones that still have a joystick 
And 3) the target audience (which is what makes all this age related)

If you want a peak at the issues with young sailors watch hold fast. 


In a perfect world my boat would have 
A) clean decks
2: lines led aft including at a minimum main halyard, reefing, Cunningham. I might settle for just the Cunningham aft. I have a loose foot main so my out haul an cunnigham are pretty meaningful means of trimming the main.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Great ad for the 360 docking. Nice bit of kit.

Notice the Gramps left the kid on board when they went? Was the kid Roger the Cabin Boy? Sent to the bilges with rags to clean? Sold to ummmm those foreigners? Chucked overboard?

Come back in 20 years time and all new boats will have that. Or maybe even Dynamic Positioning. 

Detachable helm wheels too. Just have one in the lazarette in case of emergency, but the rest of the time you just have the joystick and auto pilot and have a clearer cockpit space.

Like GPS and AIS advances in technology only enhance safety, increase abilities and add enjoyment... And all three mean an increase in "seamanship" as far as I am concerned. 


Mark


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## c. breeze (Feb 18, 2013)

Correct. This discussion isn't any different than the one we could have regarding roller furling headsails. 40 years ago. Now it's just accepted. I have it on my boat. I am not sure how many hank on headsails I've swapped out but its alot. Same with foil. 

Really light badass shoes can help you jump higher and maybe snag the occasional extra rebound- but they won't help you dribble. In 20 years the fundamentals of sailing will not have changed. We will still be shaping airfoils to bend the wind to our whim. When a rudder starts to cavitate or stall you will still be able to wag the tiller or wheel and get water flowing over it again. The autopilot- maybe it'll know that buy then, maybe not. 

So, while having systems that augment or compliment your own abilities does contribute to an overall increase in seamanship- I remain of the position that it must all be founded on a solid basis of fundamentals- and that joystick docking isn't that solid foundation.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

C. Breeze-guess I see it another way. I see virtually no US boats on Paulo's thread. As the fishing industry dies in my neck of the woods more habor space is turned into condos, fewer areas to anchor/moor and more finger slips filled with Grand Banks and the like. I think anything that gets folks on the water in sailboats is a good thing. I think it's fun to show some one how to use their mooring lines and fore or aft power to move their bow or stern off the fuel dock. Think if we can get folks to appreciate the joy of sailing as time goes on they will use the dock and go progressively less as they enjoy the sense of accomplishment of bringing the boat in without it more. Think the right approach is to be more enclusive so we remain relevent when the various powers that be look at the services we use and we maintain a vibrant market to foster the industry that serves us.
P.S.- My package works well without aid. But embarressing those who need help is unkind in my view. I intentionally sized my boat so that I could run everything when the power fails but having power on all my winches means my admiral can single while I sleep. I think to whatever extent we can be enclusive, open to new sailors of all ages and abilities and openly non judgmentally share knowledge and skill it is good for all of us.


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## c. breeze (Feb 18, 2013)

Please forgive the jab. 

I have expressed well reasoned distaste with an advertisement, and you continue to make posts that essentially call my character into question, calling me ageist, suggesting I am unwilling to help those in need I meet along the way, and that I am somehow not inclusive o those new to sailing. 

All of this makes it dificult for me to avoid caustic jabs. 

But like my dad always said I am "strong like bull an smart like tractor" which is just smart enough to discontinue unpleasant interaction.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

Please, can we refrain from the personal attacks and stick to disagreeing about the topic?


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

> and you continue to make posts that essentially call my character into question


Comments like these don't help your position.



> Tell you what- try to tuck up that Viagra inspired boner- and spare me the righteous indignation.





> Please, can we refrain from the personal attacks and stick to disagreeing about the topic?


DRFerron is right, carry on.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

No sailing-related forum discussion is worth hard feelings or personal attacks (I learned this the hard way).

It has been a long and frustrating winter, as evidenced by the disagreements on the forum. Soon we will all be sailing again under blue skies, water gurgling along the hull, and sunlight glinting off the water (and one would hope as little unnecessary gear as possible on the boat).


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Great ad for the 360 docking. Nice bit of kit.
> 
> Come back in 20 years time and all new boats will have that. Or maybe even Dynamic Positioning.
> 
> ...


No surprise you and I might disagree on this, but how a technology like joystick docking represents an enhancement of abilities, skills, and overall seamanship is completely lost on me...

Certainly hope they get all the bugs worked out of those systems by the time everyone out there has them... Last fall, in late November, I was fueling a boat at The Yacht Basin Co. in Annapolis, minding my own business... Empty harbor, very little activity about, when a 40' powerboat approaches alongside, to come to the fuel dock ahead of me... Good thing both myself and the dock attendant simultaneously realized something was wrong, and managed to get to the outboard side of my boat to lessen the impact of the resultant collision...

The operator of the vessel was clearly not some clueless newb, but sheepishly admitted he had been having "issues" with the system going haywire at random, invariably inopportune times...

2 winters ago in Boat Harbor in the Abacos, I witnessed a professional captain completely destroy the swim platform on a 44' Hinckley Talaria, when there was a similar failure while backing into a slip... I've had a similar ''fly by wire" engine control failure occur on a 62' Sunseeker, rendering the throttles useless on a $1.8 million yacht... Fortunately, there was a manual override system for the gearbox clutches, and we were able to limp into Charleston late one night after running the last 40 miles on a run from Morehead at dead idle...

And this, from a friend of mine who sails a J-160, not the kind of guy to make something like this up:



> I have a marina neighbor with a Jeanneau that has it. Five of six (serious) rounds of "fixes" and adds of batteries, bigger alternator, hardware, software, etc. -- it still "locks-up" at the worst times. UFB.
> 
> I've asked them: Why did you get this linked system, your boat backs well enough, just have them lock the sail drive in the fore-aft postion, use the bow thrusters (if you need to), and get-on with life. Work-out something with Jeanneau for your economic and other suffering -- get them to clean-up the vestigual crap, so it looks like it was always intended that way, etc.


I'd like to know what happens to such systems in the event of a total loss of electrical power, or a more catastrophic event such as a lightning strike... I would imagine even a nearby strike could easily knock such a heavily software-dependent system out of commission... Sure might be inconvenient of such a failure occurred when that rotating saildrive was in a position perpendicular to the centerline of the hull, for example...

Nah, what am I thinking? Such things could NEVER happen on a boat, right? Electrons NEVER cease flowing to all the right places they need to be, after all... (grin)


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Wow! Interesting thread.

Well, here is my two (or three) cents worth:

Regarding winch placement and lines...

My boat is a Catalina 400. It has inmast furling. All the lines are run aft. I would not have it any other way. This is one of the key bonuses of inmast - you don't have to leave the cockpit in almost any weather. I find that more valueable on this boat and this configuratoin than keeping things at the mast. However, I am seriouzly looking at putting in clutches at the mast which would get the halyards out of my dodger. I have seen many boats do this and I think it is a great idea.

My dad's boat (and realistically ours too) is a Tayana Vancouver 42. It has a traditional slab reef. I obviously spend and have spent a fair amount of time on it. WHen we bought the boat, the boat had all the lines leading aft - in cluding the halyards and reefing lines. Hated it!! We had winches placed on the mast for reefing and hauling the halyard. Life is much, much better. On that boat, you can go to the mast, lean against the grannys, and relatively easily drop in a j-reef or raise the halyard. I find that with a trad main, you are probaly going to the mast to drop in a reef anyways (I always do/did on my 380 too). Might as well put the lines where they are easiest to handle. 

SO two different boats, two different answers. I think both are right for those boats and rigging.

Regarding dodgers...

Sorry Jon - I love them. But yours and Dave's points are well taken about the "holes" through them. I will say that when crossing from Pensacola, we took a breaker onto the dodger that ripped the velcro off the bottom and put the water into the cockpit (not sure if that made sense). In one sense, I hated getting everything wet and wish it had been secured better (much like Valiant does theirs). On the other hand, I wonder what that kind of force would have done to the dodger had it not been able to release some of the load??? Anyways, I wholeheartedly agree with Dave that the boat should stay dry and salt free down below - especially as a cruiser. Otherwise, it is just misery.

Regarding all the new gadgets...

I have mixed opinions. THings like Sat phones, SSB, EPirbs, AIS, radar, and GPS have made us safer and less safe. Many of us sail via GPS/Chartplotter (I am one of them) and if they went down, many of us would have a real difficulty finding our way to our intended destination. Case in point: On the way back from the Tortugas one time, I shut off the chartplotter for a little practice session with my dead reckoning. You see, offshore I take 30 minute plottings on paper, with COG, SOG, wind, etc. It was a nice day and a good time to give my seamanship a test in controlled conditions. Well, within 30 minutes or an hour of careful hand steering, I sucesfully put us way off our course! THE XTE was terrible. Of course, I need more practice, but my point is that while many of these items make us safer, they also make us rusty on our seamanship. And to think that many people (even cruisers) I meet do not paper plot or often even carry paper backups... that is scary!! Regading the joy stick docking thing... well, I sure hope his battery doesn't go dead while he is near me! I would love to have a bow thruster on our boat, and would buy one if it were in the cruising budget, but somehow I have managed to get along without it. I will say that I have serious concerns for many of the boaters I see should their bow thruster go out. What happened to learning how to spring off a dock, bow-in to a slip, keep your boat pointed into the wind waiting for a bridge... etc.

Regarding inmast or inboom versus slab...

I was all against it until I had it and learned how to use it. I have written articles on this. I really like a GOOD inmast (there are some that are not). You are safe, you can reef to any point, you stay in the cockpit, you will likely use your main more, you can easily rig a trysail (two separate tracks), etc. I would not go back to a trad main unless I was racing.

Brian

PS Keep the comments focused on the subject, not the person. We are all friends here.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Cruising Dad as always you make very cogent and valuable points. Think you're right our skill sets are rusty and it is worthwhile to do DR exercises (think it would be fun).Perhaps even do a sight reduction.( just a easy one like lower limb of the moon-grin). The set up of reefing systems should reflect the needs of that specific vessel. I had a scary time so don't feel secure with in mast. View that sense of security (I can handle this) as a safety issue . Know some people swear by them and it does allow powering up a reefed main. Jon is right about the increase in vulnerablity with these increasingly complex systems. Hell beyond changing the oil can't even work on my truck any more. Did both an LAN (wireless) and hard wired system for key coponents of the nav-system. But gotta tell you the wireless remote for the autopilot is gonna be a great toy. It would scare me to have fly by wire as the sole system on a boat. But see it being on vehicles even motorcycles from my understanding. Technology is pervasive. Wonder to what degree it truly improve the quality of ours lives. Wonder about the proverbial ship and star to steer by.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

outbound said:


> But gotta tell you the wireless remote for the autopilot is gonna be a great toy...


It is, I wouldn't want to be without mine... If yours is by Raymarine, however, a word of caution is in order...

My S100 is powered by a pair of AAA batteries... If they go dead while the autopilot is in AUTO mode, it will switch the unit into STANDBY... Could result in big trouble, if you're not aware of it, and my owner's manual from Raymarine makes no mention whatsoever of this possiblilty...

Furthermore, there is no easy way to turn it off, it will only do so automatically if the pilot is in STANDBY mode for a few minutes... To avoid having to do that, I simply open the back cover and disconnect one of the batteries...

I've never used the more expensive and presumably more capable S1000, perhaps they've improved on some of these design flaws...

Great gadgets, however, no question about it... I would have killed for one on my last delivery south, some idiot had put the control head in an incredibly stupid location, very awkward to reach...


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Jon- Really appreciate the heads up. You're right have the Raymarine with the long arm. They offer two remotes. The bigger one was rechargerable and showed instruments but thought the smaller one made more sense hanging around your neck. Figured KISS. Guess will have batteries in a baggie in the cockpit pocket and foulie pockets. Can you turn the pilot off at the wheel console and then just use that after you turn it back on? Will the system accept input after the batteries in the remote go dead?


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Jon - Thanks from me, too, for the heads-up. My wife got me the S100 for Christmas, and I just installed it for use this season after we splash. It's good to have a warning about the battery issue.

Like outbound, I would be interested in knowing how to reset the Auto mode after the remote goes dead. I assume that once the S100 is dead and it goes back into standby, that you just have to walk to the wheel, re-establish the correct heading, then press "auto" on the main control panel. Please confirm if something else needs to be done, like pulling the dead batteries out of the unit.

I have a couple Eneloop AAA's, so maybe I'll use them and recharge after every couple of daysails, assuming that 2x1.2v NiMH power is adequate for the handset.

Also like outbound, I selected the S100 over the fancier one because it seemed better to hang around my neck. And I prefer using generic batteries over proprietary rechargables.

Maybe if I go overboard I can steer the boat back to me. (JUST KIDDING - I know the boat would be out of range in seconds.)


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

TakeFive said:


> Like outbound, I would be interested in knowing how to reset the Auto mode after the remote goes dead. I assume that once the S100 is dead and it goes back into standby, that you just have to walk to the wheel, re-establish the correct heading, then press "auto" on the main control panel. Please confirm if something else needs to be done, like pulling the dead batteries out of the unit.


Yes, there's no trick to re-setting the pilot after it's turned off, you just need to be aware of the issue, is all... Either remove the batteries, and reset the pilot, or put it back in STANDBY and hand steer for a couple of minutes until the remote shuts itself off, then resume by hitting AUTO...

But I think it's quite common to be using the remote early in a trip or the beginning of a day, and then after clearing a harbor or inlet, and simply forgetting about it after establishing a course that's not gonna be altered for awhile... That's when it could be quite likely that the batteries might run down...

I've mentioned this issue to Raymarine reps at the boat shows over the years, but I'm not sure it ever gets passed on... It would be interesting to see whether a correction or addendum has ever been made to the owner's manual that accompanies the units currently being sold, perhaps you or Outbound can check if you see any mention of it in your manuals...

And, I should also mention, my S100 is several years old now, I bought mine not too long after they first came out... Perhaps Raymarine has resolved this issue, and it's no longer a problem with newer units like yours... You could probably run a test by pulling the batteries, and see if the pilot reverts to STANDBY... My control head is the 6002, a fairly recent model, so I doubt it's an issue the the control head, as opposed to the remote...

And of course, perhaps mine is simply unique, I've never used another on a different boat...


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

thank again Jon. Boat comes in to Norfolk Va around may 15th. Then will sail direct to N.E. after rigging and brief shake down.Small crew so expect to be on autopilot the whole time. Will let you know. Expect ~3d for pasage which may not be enough time for batteries to fail. But then will be coastal and mostly singling so should know soon enough. Folks like you are a major reason I piss off the admiral and spend so much time reading posts. (GRIN) You're the best.


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## macwester26 (Mar 21, 2013)

NewportNewbie said:


> I am planning on doing some deck work and everyone says this is the time to run lines to the cockpit. What lines should I run aft? Right now the only lines aft are the main sheet, jib sheets, topping lift and travelers. I was planning on running the cunningham and boom vang back. Should I do main halyard? Spin Halyard? I am going to be using an Asym. Spinnaker I assume the topping lift isnt needed? Anyone have before and after pics?


Hi NewportMewbie.
We will also soon be running back everything to the cockpit area.

Mainsail up and Down.
The foresail genoa is on a furling and goes to the cockpit anyway.
I can't think of anything else I may need ....
This will be enough for me I am sure.


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## dvuyxx (Jun 23, 2009)

This pissing match doesn't surprise me. We are sailors ... and we like to compare the tatoos on our chests, and, in a bind, we jury rig our sails with the guts of our fallen crew.

Honestly. Could it be that some of the things that we love about sailing are what some people hate? And some of the things that people say they hate about sailing, are secretly the things that we love. There are always curmudeons on Sailnet that give you a hard time about creature comforts and luxuries because it isn't the "old way." I love those curmudeons' trash talk and ribbing (as long as its civil). Sailing is a sport and it's a personal challenge to sail ... your way. Some people like the old way ... I secretly do. Some people like the latest gadgets ... I secretly do. I perpetually restore an old boat ... mostly the old way ... but I'm not going to apologize (and no one should) because running lines aft, or some push button gadget is right or cool to them. But I still look forward to the curmudeons giving me a hard time on Sailnet. I hope that it is civil and welcoming ... and after we all compare chest tatoos, people should welcome another person into the world of sailing to which we all belong ... gadgets and all.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

> .
> sea·man·ship (smn-shp)
> n.
> Skill in navigating or managing a boat or ship.


So I had to actually look up the word Seamanship to see what "they" say it means.

It's really pretty short, isn't it.

So lets take the Joy Stick from a Jenneau and lets see who else uses it. cruise ships with thousands of passengers can do a loop-de-loop of an anchorage without tugs and in remote islands and coral cays because and ONLY because they have Joystick and similar computer controlled devices.

You would have to think the Captain is doing a seamanlike job displaying Seamanship.
However if the computer joystick thingo blows up the Captain can not and will not attempt the same maneuvers by direct command.

He will have to wait outside port, or wait in port until the gizmo is fixed by an expensive Gizmo Fixer.

But we don't slag the ship captain because he can't maneuver it, nor because he can't himself fix it!

Remember the litany of Carnival Cruises ships breakdowns in the last few weeks. Do we call the Captains lacking seamanship because they call a tug? Or stay in Port? Or get the passengers off? No! We say that's a high level of Seamanship!

So if Joystick use is seamanship in ships with hundreds of thousands of tons of Oil, or cargo, or passengers why shouldn't it be the same for a Jeanneau 45????

Mark


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I suspect the old school advocates don't feel the same way about aircraft, or do you?


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

If you go to the Smithsonian Air and Space Museum in D.C., go to the "Golden Era of Flight" display - displaying the airplanes built between WWI and WWII. Note the "Golden Era of Flight" is not the present. (I would also say the "Golden Era of Sailing" would not be the present either, even though we are safer and faster now.)

There you can see the most beautiful plane built - Howard Hughes' silver and blue H-1, which held the land speed record for a period of time. A single-wing propeller plane. It has all been downhill ever since.

There is beauty in simplicity and minimalism in purpose. Older boats, cars and planes are cool and more purposeful. You could actually understand how they work and work on them yourself. Jamming something full of technology does not necessarily make it more attractive or more desirable to us purists, even though they may be safer, more convenient, easier, etc.


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

Jib Sheets (pretty obvious), Jib Furling Line (obvious again), Traveler, Main Sheet, Vang, In-Haul, Out Haul, (Furling Main Sail), Asymmetrical Tack Line, Asymmetrical Sheets.

Our Main and Jib Halyards run through a Clutch on the mast, they are furling sails. In the spring we run them back to the cockpit and use the coach top winch to raise them. When we feel comfortable with the tension for general sailing, they are coiled and stored neatly on the mast. If we need to tweak halyard tension, they are brought back to the cockpit on a temporary basis as needed. 

The asymmetrical spin halyard is at the mast on a cleat, we use a sock for hoisting and dousing.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

got the new sail in the mail(yup still like reading it on the throne rather then on a screen). Read the two articles about not bringing everything aft. Have brought everything aft but still have winches on the mast and cringles in the mainsail. That way can do it either way if needs be. Think all the tech is great but for a small boat sailor you still need to run the boat when stuff breaks/fouls etc. Got three ways to steer the boat- wheel, emergency tiller and autopilot. Each on separate arms off rudderpost. Also have a way to steer when rudder fails. Got weather fax through SSB but have a recording barometer. Got electronic up the ying yang but also papercharts,sexton and merlin. Best is got an engine and SAILS. Same kind of thinking. Would just suggest we all think about what we will do when the gizmo breaks.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

*Automated sailing mentality anecdotally*

I was really surprised by the vitriolic tone of some of the earlier posts, especially given the rather innocuous nature of this topic. Frankly, it sounded awfully close to the "Name your second and I'll meet you on the cliffs of Weehawken at sunrise". Good grief. (In honor of Jon Eisberg *Grin*)

But what struck me was that the point of contention seemed like multiple symptoms of the same agreed upon problem, which in my mind is that fewer U.S. citizens are getting into sailing in part because we, as a culture, are seemingly getting less mechanically inclined, and also amongst those who do take up sailing, there seems to be less of a willingness and capability to adapt to physical requirements and learning process that is required to be a skillful hands-on sailor.

In response, progressively, there seemingly has been a focused marketing effort to make sailing physically and mentally less demanding as a way of getting people out on sailboats. I do not intend to stand here judging the rightness or wrongness of this approach, but clearly this appears to be a trend, and clearly it is in response to changes in the population.

Anecdotally, I see this trend in a variety of symptoms. For example, in the late 1800's, there were liveries of small rental sailboats all along the Hudson River. Blue collar workers of the era rented these for a day on the River. On Sunday's the river was clogged with small sailing craft of a wide variety. People of a board range of economic standing, understood how to sail, and would follow sailing events in the Newspapers in the same way that people follow major league sports on cable channels today.

By the 1960's, it was not all unusual for families to own small cruiser, and I mean small. People would start out sailing comparatively small boats and work their up to bigger boats and more ambitious adventures as they developed skills.

In our case, when I was a kid, my family of four would cruise for weeks at a time on a Contest 25 and later lived summers on a Vanguard 32 (with about as much interior space as the average 28 footer of today). These were simple boats in all ways, 2 burner alcohol stove, an icebox with real ice, minimal electronics (depth sounder and an RDF), minimal deck gear and so on. My Dad did most of his own maintenance. We were pretty typical of the folks that we knew back then.

And as simple as boats were in those days, there was seemingly a tacit understanding that new sailors went through a process to build skills; learning to be sailors thru a gradual and sequential apprenticeship of skill building by reading and experiencing. And within the sailing community there was a near universal sense of old salts reaching out to newcomers and giving them a leg up.

And there was an ethic which went along with that. A sense of accomplishment in fighting through a storm or ghosting through a lull, in trouble shooting some problem, or coming into a slip or narrow inlet under sail, or of a boat well handled and a fast passage time.

But as a culture we build products that the average person can no longer fix themselves, and so over time we have become less handy and less self reliant. And with that loss of sense of accomplistment from learning and doing, is lost a societal sense that there is merit to valuing those kinds of capabilities. And that must filter into the perceptions of sailing, a sport that primarily exists on the ethic of doing a vast amount with an invisible resource and with difficult challenges.

I attended a sailing yacht design symposium recently and at the symposium was a lecture on a strange radio controlled model sail boat called a 'Footy' which is foot long, a foot deep, six inch wide, with something like a 1'-6" rig height. And the lecturer said that kids have become so inept at building things that they could design these boats on a computer but could not build them. They eventually were considering outlawing boats built with the use of computer driven cutters and 3D printers to protect the original purpose of the rule which was to get kids build things.

But back to anecdotes on the issue of automated boats. There was a 10 year period which slowed to a near stop about 5 years ago, where a different person would send me a message every two to three weeks in one form or another, saying something like, " I have read many of your posts. I am new to sailing and I would like to sail around the world. I have $XX,XXX to spend. What kind of boat should I buy?"

And I would give them all the same answer. "Buy a used, small (no more than 25-30 foot), simple, fin keel spade rudder sloop and spend as much time on the water as you can. Sail with as many people as you can on as many different types of boats as you can in as many types of conditions as you can. Put together a list of topics that you will need to study, (and I would give them a sample list) and then study the daylights out of it. In a year or two or three, you will not have to ask me what kind of boat to buy&#8230;you should know for yourself".

But oddly, in the first exchange of email, the vast majority of these folks started out objecting to the idea of doing 'an apprenticeship". Almost every single one of them said, they would learn as they went. They did not want to waste time and money on a boat to learn on. I tried to talk them out of it, most time successfully. And there were so many of these folks that I tracked them for a while on a spreadsheet. 
•	No matter what was said, some only wanted to buy their ultimate boat. (Although they did provide me with some interesting challenges like the cell phone call from a desperate owner of a 45 footer caught in a higher than they were comfortable with winds, with too much sail up and his wife afraid to take the helm.) Those folks almost never made it anywhere. Years of their life would seemingly pass by and most of them would go away bitter.
•	Others did not want to buy a used boat and only wanted to buy new boats with all the bells and whistles, sometimes bigger than I would suggest. They wanted something 'reliable', more comfortable, easier to sail, less demanding. Some of those took my advice that in part, the purpose of buying a used boat was to learn how to care for a boat, and build up ingenuity and skills. Those who bought new boats, rarely went beyond coastal cruising, but they also often learned that there is nothing wrong with coastal cruising. 
•	But a large number of folks followed my suggestions. Out of that group many did move on to bigger boats and successful long distance cruises. Others enjoyed the experience of learning to sail enough, and poking around in coastal conditions, the Bahamas or the Caribbean, that it became all of the adventure that they needed. Some discovered cheaply, that sailing was not for them. 
•	And others, fretted so long over buying or outfitting the perfect boat that they never did get out there, which was probably the best thing for those folks.

And if I had to come away with one conclusion, at least at the start, it was that for most of these folks, it was about an instant grand reward without having to do the heavy lifting. And seen from that vantage point, the idea of boats which are automated and which require little physical conditioning to operate, and which work well as long as they work, may make sense in terms of getting people into the sport of sailing.

And at the end of the day, I have no problem with that as long as these folks don't hurt themselves and others through negligence or intentional ignorance. But that is a big "as long as", and it is that particularly big "as long as" that makes me nervous about advertisements that project complex gizmos as the marketing equivalent of "Viagra seamanship".

Respectfully,
Jeff


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

JonEisberg said:


> My S100 is powered by a pair of AAA batteries... If they go dead while the autopilot is in AUTO mode, it will switch the unit into STANDBY... Could result in big trouble, if you're not aware of it, and my owner's manual from Raymarine makes no mention whatsoever of this possiblilty...


Interesting. Mine doesn't behave that way. It just quietly dies when the batteries are drained. I wonder what's different. Want to swap serial numbers? Mine dates from 2006 and I haven't done any firmware updates.



JonEisberg said:


> Furthermore, there is no easy way to turn it off, it will only do so automatically if the pilot is in STANDBY mode for a few minutes... To avoid having to do that, I simply open the back cover and disconnect one of the batteries...


That's frustrated me more than once.

Still - I'm glad I have it.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

jameswilson29 said:


> .....they may be safer, more convenient, easier, etc.


There we go. That was the OP's question.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> I suspect the old school advocates don't feel the same way about aircraft, or do you?


Perhaps if we ever reach the point when a private individual can purchase a $350K airplane, and immediately begin flying it without any demonstration of prior experience or competence whatsoever, then such analogies between aviation and recreational boating might have a bit more validity... Hopefully, it will never come to that, nor hopefully will I ever wind up in an airplane being flown by someone with a level of flying experience equivalent to a sailor who has never docked a boat without resorting to the use of a joystick docking system... (grin)

Funny, but I've never considered myself to be an "old school advocate"... Some might be surprised at the amount of 'gadgets' I have on my own boat, and certainly when I'm delivering a motor yacht with both bow and stern thrusters, for example, I will make use of them all... Perhaps I've simply been extremely unlucky over the years, but my experience has led me to distrust the needless complexity that is becoming increasingly commonplace on today's boats.



MarkofSeaLife said:


> So if Joystick use is seamanship in ships with hundreds of thousands of tons of Oil, or cargo, or passengers why shouldn't it be the same for a Jeanneau 45????


Well, perhaps the fact that a Jeanneau 45 can be easily docked by any reasonably competent skipper using the boat's conventional propulsion and steering system alone, but a 1,000 foot cruise ship displacing 150,000 tons - well, not so much...

And then, there's this:



> I have a marina neighbor with a Jeanneau that has it. Five of six (serious) rounds of "fixes" and adds of batteries, bigger alternator, hardware, software, etc. -- it still "locks-up" at the worst times. UFB.





MarkofSeaLife said:


> However if the computer joystick thingo blows up the Captain can not and will not attempt the same maneuvers by direct command.


Is that supposed to be a compelling argument for introducing such a complex system into small, easily managed vessels that are sailed for pleasure?



MarkofSeaLife said:


> He will have to wait outside port, or wait in port until the gizmo is fixed by an expensive Gizmo Fixer.


Again, is that supposed to support the argument in favor of Expensive Gizmos?

I suppose that's fine for those who sail from one marina to the next, never beyond the reach of Sea-Tow, or always in close proximity to their Authorized Dealers/Service Centers...

But, good luck getting your friendly neighborhood Jeanneau Joystick Repairman to make a service call to a place like Baracoa, Cuba, for example...










One definition of Seamanship, to me, involves the continual consideration of the matters posed by the question "What If?" Perhaps the most egregious breach of seamanship by Captain Walbridge of the BOUNTY was his refusal to honestly consider what his Plan B would be in the likely event of a failure of the generators that powered the continual running of the pumps required to keep that pig afloat...

In my view, any crew who puts to sea in a small boat, should have the capability of either completing the voyage, or returning to port safely, in the event of a complete power failure... Those who choose to sail boats whose basic operation is so heavily dependent upon such a complex system, and ignore the value of a KISS approach in favor of convenience, might someday pay the price...



MarkofSeaLife said:


> Detachable helm wheels too. Just have one in the lazarette in case of emergency, but the rest of the time you just have the joystick and auto pilot and have a clearer cockpit space.


Hmmm, I wonder how effectively something like weather helm would be felt through a joystick?

What's to prevent you from removing your wheel now, when running on autopilot? Other than the fact that a costly, gear-busting accidental jibe might some day be averted by a quick hand on the wheel, should your autopilot or joystick suddenly decide to filp out?


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

JonEisberg said:


> In my view, any crew who puts to sea in a small boat, should have the capability of either completing the voyage, or returning to port safely, in the event of a complete power failure...


In my unscientific survey of recreational boating disasters at sea, this seems to be the critical factor. The series of events is often water ingress, loss of electrical power, and loss of engine operation.

Then, Joe Doe, the technology wiz, finds himself in an oversized sailboat he can't sail without the electronics and gadgetry, with a considerable amount of water inside, no automatic bilge pumps, no lights, no electric winches, and a spouse or crew person with some kind of injury. It seems as if the boat is sinking. It is dark inside and water is sloshing around, coming in from some unknown source. Someone is throwing up and there is a bad odor inside the boat. Loose objects and gear are floating around inside the boat. Things on the deck have washed overboard. Critical gear can't be found. Everyone wants to get off the boat onto dry, safe land. No one expected this to happen (although these conditions have been a regular feature of offshore sailing for centuries).

The solution: activate the EPIRB, blame the injured spouse or crewman for the need of rescue, and go on a sailing forum like a crybaby complaining about how the insensitive freighter captain destroyed your precious boat in the process of rescuing you, or how the Coast Guard made you leave your boat when you really just wanted to let your crew get off.

Months later, if Joe Doe did not scuttle the boat, it is found happily floating hundreds of miles away, with shredded sails. Geez, you see that, we did not have to abandon ship after all!


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

JonEisberg said:


> Funny, but I've never considered myself to be an "old school advocate"... Some might be surprised at the amount of 'gadgets' I have on my own boat, and certainly when I'm delivering a motor yacht with both bow and stern thrusters, for example, I will make use of them all... Perhaps I've simply been extremely unlucky over the years, but my experience has led me to distrust the needless complexity that is becoming increasingly commonplace on today's boats.


Really? Another thing for us to compare scar tissue on someday. Maybe _I'm_ the old fart. Maybe I've just had one too many thruster controls wired backwards. *sigh*

One of my favorite stories with no humility at all is backing a brand new HR into a slip at the end of a fast trip from Florida to Maryland with the broker and the new owner standing on the dock. I came in absolutely dead center and lined up, crew dropped the dock lines of the pilings on the first toss, and I shut off the engine. The owner made a comment about how nice it was to have a bow thruster to which I replied "I didn't use it." *grin*



JonEisberg said:


> What's to prevent you from removing your wheel now, when running on autopilot? Other than the fact that a costly, gear-busting accidental jibe might some day be averted by a quick hand on the wheel, should your autopilot or joystick suddenly decide to filp out?


An autopilot losing its mind makes me really unhappy.

I keep finding boats that are missing a piece of the emergency tiller, or in some cases the tiller doesn't fit the steering head. Can you imagine?


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

SVAuspicious said:


> Really? Another thing for us to compare scar tissue on someday. Maybe _I'm_ the old fart. Maybe I've just had one too many thruster controls wired backwards. *sigh*
> 
> One of my favorite stories with no humility at all is backing a brand new HR into a slip at the end of a fast trip from Florida to Maryland with the broker and the new owner standing on the dock. I came in absolutely dead center and lined up, crew dropped the dock lines of the pilings on the first toss, and I shut off the engine. The owner made a comment about how nice it was to have a bow thruster to which I replied "I didn't use it." *grin*


Stern thrusters can be pretty nice on larger yachts, expecially when running something like the Erie Canal shorthanded... Always seems to blow hard up there in the fall, and with the windage most motoryachts present at the top of the lift, handling the boat with lines alone can often be a bit of a stuggle..








.

Most folks don't realize how impossible the visibility aft from the bridge helm of most motoryachts today has become, backing into a slip you can't see a thing from the helm... Reliance on video cameras has become the norm, along with a second control station aft...

What's really becoming popular now, are wireless remote control consoles... As usual, I think this is a very dangerous trend - a friend of mine was aboard a 72' Marlow when one went haywire while docking at Ocean Reef, resulting in about a $50K repair job to the transom and swim platform...

The Future of Yachting - Yacht Controller Commercial - YouTube!

One good thing about bow thrusters on other's boats, however... They can often serve as a sort of Distant Early Warning System, similar to an AIS alarm... When sitting in a slip in a place like Beaufort Town Docks, for example, and a boat shows up that's gonna be directed to an adjacent slip - if you start hearing the thruster whine when the guy is still 100+ feet away from the dock, you know it's probably a good idea to grab a spare fender or two, and stand by in a self-defense posture... (grin)


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

*Re: Automated sailing mentality anecdotally*



Jeff_H said:


> I was really surprised by the vitriolic tone of some of the earlier posts, especially given the rather innocuous nature of this topic. Frankly, it sounded awfully close to the "Name your second and I'll meet you on the cliffs of Weehawken at sunrise". Good grief. (In honor of Jon Eisberg *Grin*)


Marvelous post, Jeff, as always... C'mon, when is that book of yours gonna be published, huh?

However, you're not fooling me - I just _KNOW_ you were among that crowd at the Annapolis Boat Show that was _APPLAUDING_ Beneteau's 360 docking hourly demos, when Old Schoolers like me were walking away, shaking our heads... (grin)



Jeff_H said:


> Anecdotally, I see this trend in a variety of symptoms. For example, in the late 1800's, there were liveries of small rental sailboats all along the Hudson River. Blue collar workers of the era rented these for a day on the River. On Sunday's the river was clogged with small sailing craft of a wide variety. People of a board range of economic standing, understood how to sail, and would follow sailing events in the Newspapers in the same way that people follow major league sports on cable channels today.


No doubt you've read TEMPLE TO THE WIND, a wonderful account of Herreschoff's RELIANCE, and her defense of the America's Cup... If you haven't, I'm sure you'd love it... One of the most interesting takeaways from that story, was how engrossed the public was in such an event, it was HUGE news, and a skipper like Charlie Barr was as famous as the Peyton Mannings and Tom Bradys of today...










Another recommendation for you, one of the best books I've read in recent months... A MAN AND HIS SHIP, the story of William Francis Gibbs and the creation of the UNITED STATES, which we all know was the most beautiful ship ever built... A fascinating book, very well done...

Book Review: A Man and His Ship - WSJ.com


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

JonEisberg said:


> Perhaps if we ever reach the point when a private individual can purchase a $350K airplane, and immediately begin flying it without any demonstration of prior experience or competence whatsoever, then such analogies between aviation and recreational boating might have a bit more validity... Hopefully, it will never come to that, nor hopefully will I ever wind up in an airplane being flown by someone with a level of flying experience equivalent to a sailor who has never docked a boat without resorting to the use of a joystick docking system... (grin)


I am in complete agreement that any skipper should be properly trained. Further, a good skipper would be committed to lifetime learning as well. I will bet many of us look forward to attending a seminar or two at various boatshows, for example.

However, there has been a noted distain for anyone to even have the modern conveniences of sailing today: lines led aft, plotters, auto pilots, thrusters, etc. It shocks me that some are ridiculed for buying safety equipment too. These are not related to whether the skipper is competent without them. In fact, the Skipper is often convicted as incompetent for simply having them.

I remain with the aviation analogy. We are as well trained as you are at the helm, but would never consider an aircraft without modern navigation and electronic assistance to be as airworthy as an old DC3, despite how much fun they were to fly.


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## One (Mar 20, 2013)

Prudence to me is making sure that I can keep myself and others as safe as possible. That means a lot of "what if" thinking, and it also means I do have safety equipment, I don't scorn at people for having roller furlers, lines led aft or anything of the sort. I too was shocked at having to defend making use of tethers and harnesses.

It doesn't mean I have every possible thing known to man. I mean, the next boat I'm getting won't have stanchions and lifelines around the perimeter, but it will have roller reefing, an assymetric spinnaker on a roller and I will be carrying an EPIRB, as well as my PLB, and use harnesses and tethers as much as possible. Especially when single handing.

I'll also have an autopilot with a remote to help me tack and to relieve me at the helm to tend to other things.

Need I say I will also continue to use GPS, a VHF, and my cell phone?

Also - because I'm scared ****less about fires - I only have the bare minimum of old-style flares on board (as defined by the law), but instead rely on laser "flares" from Greatland and I just ordered a "handheld" laser flare from odeoflare.co.uk. I hope it will soon be possible to do completely without gun powder flares. 

I like some old things, as is evidenced by my choice of the next boat (old in style), but I really have no desire to do everything like in the "good old days". I don't think they were that good, nor safe. I will make use of anything within reason if it can make me more safe, or make it easier to single hand, or make it more comfortable (without taking too much of the fun out of it).

There are places I wont go without my depth sounder. Should I do everything by lead line like in the "good old days"? Hell, no, it takes longer, and its not as safe or even possible at times to do that when out and about alone.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

JonEisberg said:


> Stern thrusters can be pretty nice on larger yachts, expecially when running something like the Erie Canal shorthanded... Always seems to blow hard up there in the fall, and with the windage most motoryachts present at the top of the lift, handling the boat with lines alone can often be a bit of a stuggle..


Agreed. Motor yachts are just big sailboats with no sail controls.

I have been seeing more boats with two or three electric winches which make horsing the boat around easier.



Minnewaska said:


> However, there has been a noted distain for anyone to even have the modern conveniences of sailing today: lines led aft, plotters, auto pilots, thrusters, etc. It shocks me that some are ridiculed for buying safety equipment too. These are not related to whether the skipper is competent without them. In fact, the Skipper is often convicted as incompetent for simply having them.


At least for my part I do not hold modern conveniences or those who buy and use them in disdain. I happily use plotters and other electronic navigation tools. I am reluctant to head offshore without an autopilot. Generators and aircon (and diesel heat) extend the sailing season for many. I'm dropping my liferaft off for recert next week. My EPIRB is registered and up to date; I have had a discussion with the people on the notification list about what a call from an RCC means.

I'm not personally a fan of thrusters, especially on sailboats, as I feel they are generally underpowered and cause undue resistance underway. I'm not big on the black dust thrown off by the motor on most units. Still, a thruster is a personal choice and if someone chooses to make an _educated_ decision to fit one that is their choice.

I feel similarly about lines led aft. Given that someone understands the issues of friction and water intrusion if you want to take that approach then fine. Saying that measurable implications (friction and water) don't exist is not a service to those that follow in our wake who make their decisions on the basis of statements that cannot be substantiated.

You can _measure_ the load increase resulting from friction in lines led aft. You can _see_ the water that enters the cockpit (and sometimes the cabin) from both seas and rain in most installations of lines led aft. Ignoring observables is not useful.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

SVAuspicious said:


> I feel similarly about lines led aft. Given that someone understands the issues of friction and water intrusion if you want to take that approach then fine. Saying that measurable implications (friction and water) don't exist is not a service to those that follow in our wake who make their decisions on the basis of statements that cannot be substantiated.
> 
> You can _measure_ the load increase resulting from friction in lines led aft. You can _see_ the water that enters the cockpit (and sometimes the cabin) from both seas and rain in most installations of lines led aft. Ignoring observables is not useful.


At the same time, ignoring the real life experiences of people who DO have their lines lead aft and say that the increased friction is negligible is not helpful either. You obviously have a bit of a pet peeve regarding water getting past your dodger through the very small slots that allow the lines to pass through. Perhaps that is an issue in some circumstances, but given that the OP doesn't even HAVE a dodger, it is not very relevant. I still have trouble visualizing the scenario where significant water could get through even if I did have a dodger.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

I've read this thread with amusement, trying to absorb as much knowledge as I can. Given my limited experience I can't even imagine contributing more than has already been said, and doing so could put me right in your line of fire. But hey, it's the Internet, so I shouldn't let that stop me, right? :laugher

Regarding the debate over friction, I think you guys have left out a key component - size of running rigging and tackle, and the stiffness of the line. It's well known that very low stretch lines like Sta-Set X don't like to go around sheaves, and that stiffness creates a great amount of friction. That can be overcome by larger sheaves (but there's a practical limit to that) and/or more flexible (and thus higher stretch) line. Or possibly lower diameter line, since smaller lines need to stretch less as they make their way around a sheave. Also, it less of a hindrance on smaller boats, because the lines are smaller diameter.

So it's possible that a casual cruiser who wants the convenience of running lines aft should consider more flexible line to reduce the friction. Many people may already be using stretchier (or well worn) line, and that's why they haven't noticed unacceptable friction when their lines run aft.

It's also possible that running lines aft reduces mechanical advantage. When you go to the mast and try to get the sail up that last couple of inches, you may tend to pull the halyard out toward you (like plucking a guitar string or bow and arrow). That mechanical advantage provides much greater tension in the line than you can get from pulling directly on the line, and can sometimes get that last bit of luff tension without needing a winch. From under the dodger you don't have that angle of pull available to you, and need to resort to a winch instead.

My lines run aft, but I have a smaller boat with lighter sails so we almost always get the mainsail up from in the cockpit without needing a winch. But when chartering (with boats that always have lines run aft), I usually go forward to pull the main halyard while my wife uses the clutch under the dodger to pull in the lazy end. I do this because I do notice that on charter boats in the 36-39' range, you do feel the friction in the system and it's quicker to go forward than it is to crank forever on the winch under the dodger.

So I agree with all of you, but i think some of the reason you're "talking past each other" is that you're not considering line stiffness and/or diameter.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I think the whole set of frictional loss, and dodger issues are a reflection of sailing styles and venues. Both can be real issues for the way that some folk sail but not for others.

Take the frictional loss issue, the increase in friction is a very real phenomina that results in part from geometry. There used to be an online calculator for mounting loads for a given block in a given configuration. There were much higher loads on the bearings of a block as the return angle increased and so the frictional resistance increased as well. So, while you would expect that a line which made a 180 turn (say a jib sheet on a deck mounted, turning block) to have twice the mounting load of the sheet tension, the mounting loads were increased substantially beyond that because of the greater bearing friction than would be present with a slight deflection of the line increasing the load on the side led to the winch.

On a boat with a mediocre deck geometry, on a halyard led aft, there would be friction from the 90 degree turning block at the mast, and the 35 degree deflection at the deck organizer. 

If you are preparing a boat to go offshore, that becomes even more of an issue as salt build up in the sheaves and lack of water to flush the bearings add to friction. So for someone like S/V Auspicious who spends time offshore and thinks about those sort of issues in setting up a boat, I can see why it would not be a priority to run lines aft. 

As someone like myself who loves performance sailing, comes out of racing, single-hands in coastal waters, carries more sail than I should,and is constantly tweaking, I could not live without my lines run aft. I purposely use low friction roller blocks and small diameter low stretch high modulus line to minimize the impact of the lines run aft. Like Take Five points out, I 'jump' my halyards at the mast when there is someone to tail for me, and at those times, I 'sweat' up the last little bit (pull the halyard away from the mast to get more mechanical advantage) which you can't do so easy from the cockpit.

The Bimini issue is a similar thing. I grew up with an 'ethic' that one never let salt water below deck. It was a religious belief in those days, a period where the clothing and interiors, and even the coverings on life jackets were loaded with cotton and wool fabrics, which when you added the short waterline boats of the era which tossed water everywhere when pitching upwind, and where salt meant damp and damp meant mildew and discomfort. A well found boat included a 'wet locker' that could be accessed from the companionway, and wet clothes never made it forward of the grating at the bottom of the companionway ladder, and that grating had a pan which kept the salt water out of the bilge (no-joking). The basis of this religion was that salt attracted moisture and once salt encrusted that fabric would stay damp until you were safely in port and could wash things out. 

Even today, during long passages, allowing salt into the cabin is not the best idea for basically the same reason. While the court of common opinion's thinking about S/V Auspicious's idea about preventing leaks in the dodger is one of those things which have changed over time (like a boat needed a retracting bowsprit to be called a cutter), when seen from the historical perpective, and from the point of view of a long distance passage maker, it still is a discipline that has validity. 

On the other hand, sailors like me and you and the original poster, we sail without dodgers, and that fits our sailing venues and sailing style perfectly, so, of course, we see a few more holes in a dodger as nearly irrelevant. 

To me these discussions are helpful to people coming into the sport or experiencing new sailing concepts because they can hear the various sides on a range of topics. By the same token, those opinions are more useful if the individual posters basis can be explained, so that not only the raw ideas are presented, but also accompanied with the context in which the presenter is forming their opinions. 

On a separate topic, the above electronics debate is interesting, but it also only scratches the surface. One thing that constantly surprises me is how insidious electronics have become. 

For example, a few years ago, I was heading to a rather poorly marked channel on an overcast and moonless night in pretty heavy air. I had a hand held GPS but it was misbehaving (Somehow the battery saver had gotten reset to a very short interval, and so it could not even boot up long enough for me to diagnose it and reset it.) I figured that this was no big deal, I would simply dead reckon and pilot my way in. It worked out okay and we got in alright but once I was on the anchor I began to replay all of the electronics in the mix: 
-I had used an electronic knotmeter to predict my speed, 
-I had used an digital stopwatch to time my running time between marks, 
-I had used an electronic depth sounder to track the shape of the bottom and confirm my swag of my line of position.
-I used an electronic autopilot when I rolled in my jib to slow down below 8 knots.
I used the electronic compass to watch my course with the teletale maked and off-course bars reading. 
-I had planned to use a very bright, plug in, spot light to pick up the reflector on the channel markers (It stopped working just as we needed it so got by with an old fashioned double D cell flashlight) 

And when I got in and as the anchor went down, I had a moment in which I congratulated myself on doing it the old fashioned way, until I honested up with myself. 

The other issue is systems like the joystick control. Many of us in this thread sail comparatively modest sized boats. I chose my 10,500 lb 38 footer, in part because she was about the biggest boat that I could man handle with a fair degree of ease. Jon Eisberg admits to craving a bigger boat, but lavishes great love on 'Chancey' in part because she is a convenient size for one person to handle and so on. But as more and more of the sailing community move towards bigger boats with all the comforts of home, and as marinas get more crowded, and fairways narrower, it becomes harder, more dangerous and litiginously negligent *grin* to try to get by with simply being good at boathandling. (For example, I raced on a 36 footer which could not fit across the fairway. The owner would motor forward until the bow man could grab the boats across the fairway (with the stern still 4-5 feet in the slip, then crew on the bow, and crew on the stern would push the boat hand over hand until the boat was clear of the slip and aimed safely down the fairway and do the same in reverse coming in.) 

In the post above, 'One' refers to that old sailing maxim variously cited as "The price of seamanship (also safety) is vigilence (also dilligence and prudence)" and at the heart of this thread is a series of opinions about how does each of us as a sailor come to grips with what we think is prudent and appropriate. With many of these topics, there is no answer which is any more universally correct than which is the better ice cream flavor 'strawberry', 'vanilla' or 'Peach'. But what is also clear, just like the ice cream analogy, for any given individual, and any given situation there is only one right answer, and for them, unless it hurts them or others, it is just that, the one right answer. 

Good thread folks! (even if we have gone pretty far afield from the original programming.) 

Jeff


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Jeff_H said:


> ...There were much higher loads on the bearings of a block as the return angle increased and so the frictional resistance increased as well. So, while you would expect that a line which made a 180 turn (say a jib sheet on a deck mounted, turning block) to have twice the mounting load of the sheet tension, the mounting loads were increased substantially beyond that because of the greater bearing friction than would be present with a slight deflection of the line increasing the load on the side led to the winch....


So that brings to mind some interesting thought experiments. I was trained in linear viscoelastic theory, and still work in fluid and solid mechanics every day. There are some very powerful concepts of reversibility and symmetry that can be used to intuit approximate solutions to the laws of motion. Very simple to apply, yet very powerful.

Forget about static tension for a minute, because that does not really cause friction directly. Also, forget about bearing friction - let's assume it's zero. Let's just focus on the dynamic part of the friction caused by pulling the line through a sheave or block. (By definition, the dynamic friction goes to zero when the line ceases moving.) This dynamic friction is caused because when the line is pulled through a sheave. the outer part of the line needs to stretch, and the inner part of the line needs to compress. The line would prefer to stay straight, but the sheave forces it to turn, and the stretching/compressing of the fibers, and their rubbing together as the line deforms into an ellipsiodal cross-section, dissipates heat. So the energy that you put in by pulling the line through the sheave comes out in the form of heat. (And if the line is stretchier, friction is less because the individual fibers will stretch more easily as it goes through the sheave.)

Here's where the symmetry concept is so powerful. If the line makes a 90° turn through the block, it will dissipate a certain amount of heat. If the line makes a -90° turn (negative angle meaning it turns the opposite direction), it will not dissipate negative heat - it will dissipate the same amount of heat. For this reason, the heat dissipation must be proportional to an even power of the degrees of turn. In this case it is the square, as it is for energy dissipation almost all the time.

So if you run a line through two separate (frictionless) blocks, 90° each, you will dissipate twice as much energy as you would for one 90° block. But if you run that same line through one of those same blocks 180°, it will dissipate FOUR times as much heat (=180^2/90^2). So as long as the friction in the blocks is negligibly small, two separate 90° blocks will have less resistance in the line than one 180° block.

Another way reduce friction is to use a larger diameter block if you want to turn 180°. That changes the calculation entirely because if you construct the entire equation for this, the ratio of line radius to sheave radius is very important, and the lower that ratio the less strain (and less friction) in the line. (By "strain" I mean the technical term, which is elongation divided by the original length)

Boring to some of you, but enlightening to me. I don't know whether the friction in the block is truly negligible compared to the friction in the line itself, but this does prove to me that even if you have a "perfect" frictionless block, you will still have resistance due to deformation of the line.

OK, now you can wake up and resume the discussion...


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

I've learned a lot on this thread and appreciate the input from all posters. But yesterday read the thread about 2 professionals being pulled out aboat at risk of life to our CG. Think it gets back to the need for a belt and suspenders mentality all sailors should have before setting out on any sail. It's the hard edges that kill most people on the water. I just built a boat with the goal of doing the north Atlantic gyre then the south pacific. I realized it would be done by two average people in their 60's. I realized although this was the goal 90+% of our sailing would be coastal. We have most all conveniences ( 30+k of electronics, all power winches, bowthruster etc). However at every step have a fall back ( knot stick, hand held gps, sexton, papercharts, sounding line,reefs and running rigging set up up to be done at mast or cockpit). We are doing this in stages. A year of coastal. Then snow bird to V.I.s. Then ARC to Portugal etc. Spent countless hours getting input from other sailors, builders, delivery captains, sail makers etc. and expect to suck every bit of knowledge out of anyone I ever encounter in my travels as fimly believe you need both the equipment and the knowledge. As regards the orginal poster suggest he go back to his/her boat sit on it and envision every possible occurance. If running lines aft makes for more safe sailing go for it. For me it think it does.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

SchockT said:


> At the same time, ignoring the real life experiences of people who DO have their lines lead aft and say that the increased friction is negligible is not helpful either. You obviously have a bit of a pet peeve regarding water getting past your dodger through the very small slots that allow the lines to pass through.


I don't think it's a pet peeve. I have way to many issues about which I think "aren't you LISTENING?" to call this one thing a pet peeve.

In fairness, if you just do daysails and weekends and stay at the dock if the weather kicks up my concerns may not be relevant.

I would point out that both Jon Eisberg and I have noted the relationship between lines led aft and water in the cockpit. It really is a problem. Even a cup of water in your lap at the beginning of a four hour watch is a problem. If you're singlehanding wet nether regions in the morning may mean having to deal with a change of clothes with no one to take the wheel. Not terrible with an autopilot offshore but a real time waste to anchor if you're on the ICW or other restricted waterway. Add some cold to that equation and think about the results.

You've got at least two professionals saying the friction is not negligible.



TakeFive said:


> I've read this thread with amusement, trying to absorb as much knowledge as I can.
> 
> *snipped some very good and rational points*
> 
> My lines run aft, but I have a smaller boat with lighter sails so we almost always get the mainsail up from in the cockpit without needing a winch.


Boat size is something I haven't given adequate credence to. Smaller boats have lighter sails and the impact on boat motion of going forward is substantial on a smaller boat. The difference between my current 22,000# boat and my previous Catalina 22 is significant. I go forward without much concern in the middle of the ocean on Auspicious. Going to the mast of the 22 foot LB was spooky.



Jeff_H said:


> As someone like myself who loves performance sailing, comes out of racing, single-hands in coastal waters, carries more sail than I should,and is constantly tweaking, I could not live without my lines run aft. I purposely use low friction roller blocks and small diameter low stretch high modulus line to minimize the impact of the lines run aft.


Then with all due respect you need a better autopilot and maybe a remote. The more turns you have in the lead of a control line (not mechanical advantage - just lead turns) the harder it is to tweak. All that extra friction and stretch make adjustment that much more difficult.



Jeff_H said:


> The Bimini issue is a similar thing. I grew up with an 'ethic' that one never let salt water below deck.


This is a bigger issue with people who liveaboard and cruise. It isn't like we can go home and run all the fabric through the laundry. Keep the water and salt of the boat because the boat is home.



Jeff_H said:


> A well found boat included a 'wet locker' that could be accessed from the companionway, and wet clothes never made it forward of the grating at the bottom of the companionway ladder, and that grating had a pan which kept the sail water out of the bilge (no-joking).


Which is why the best place for a head is at the bottom of the companionway.



TakeFive said:


> Forget about static tension for a minute


Okay for purposes of discussion, but static friction is significant in all but the best blocks.

best, dave


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

I did'nt even bother to read any thing but the OP's question. Simple. I've been single handling off shore for 25 years. I have 3 lines in my cockpit. Mainsheet, port jib sheet, starboard jib sheet. If you are not comfy accessing all points of your vessel while under way in any condition's, you should not be single handling, Having all that crap clutering up your cockpit is not safe, nor easier (Add one more line if you are a furler person.) I can get from my mast head to the bottom of my keel any where any time, 1000 miles off shore at night in the rain, I have fold out mast steps and dive gear on board. Single handling is self sufficiancy.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

SVAuspicious said:


> I don't think it's a pet peeve. I have way to many issues about which I think "aren't you LISTENING?" to call this one thing a pet peeve.
> 
> In fairness, if you just do daysails and weekends and stay at the dock if the weather kicks up my concerns may not be relevant.
> 
> ...


I too agree about the friction issue and keeping things dry - as I mentioned. The friction issue is however more of an issue on traditional slab reefing boats versus inmast. On inmast, everything is done by hand on our boat anyways. And having salty clothes is a nightmare aboard. THey nnever get dry. That is why we keep "outside" clothes and inside. THis works well with bathingsuits and beach towels.

Brian


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

I'm real curious about holes in dodger leading to significant water in cockpit. Built boat with hard dodger. Have 4 lines going through coaming and back to line stoppers then winches on either side of companion way. In past have just set tails of lines under dodger to get them out of the way. House top is beveled. Figured any water coming in would be minimal and run along leeward inside of dodger. Will have limber holes if necessary but now have gutter in forward cockpit seat so water would go to scupper. ?Is this really an issue especially as I tend to wear my foulie bottoms most always to keep my clothes underneath dry and salt free when doing passages? If a real issue may just stick a sponge in the holes which would pop out if lines were adjusted. Also tend to leave lowest board in most times as agree inside of boat should always be dry.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I'm really struggling to think of sea condition scenario where I would be dry, if not for the water that came up over the height of our cabin top in sufficient volume to make it through the chase for the aft led lines. 

And, if it did, it would not enter the cabin, if the hatch is closed. No way. I routinely hose the cockpit down with gallons of water and not a drop.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

SVAuspicious said:


> I don't think it's a pet peeve. I have way to many issues about which I think "aren't you LISTENING?" to call this one thing a pet peeve.
> 
> In fairness, if you just do daysails and weekends and stay at the dock if the weather kicks up my concerns may not be relevant.
> 
> ...


Yes, clearly we are speaking from different perspectives. The only open ocean sailing I have done is on race boats where there are no dodgers, and the cockpits get wet.(mind you we aren't in the habit of burying rails and punching through waves!) If fact 90% of all the sailing I have done has been on boats without dodgers at all, so I have to chuckle when people wring their hands over getting a bit of water in the cockpit! Whatever do you do when it rains?  If you are worried about getting splashed when a wave washes the length of your deck, and hits your dodger with enough force for significant water to come through and splash you and make you uncomfortable for an entire watch, I would suggest that you are not dressed appropriately for the conditions!

As for professionals saying the friction is not negligible, I think the fact that the vast majority of boats built today are rigged with lines aft, including race boats where being able to hoist and drop sails quickly and smoothly and make adjustments quickly and smoothly is paramount puts that opinion into question! The convenience and versatility of aft lines easily outweighs any increased friction in almost every case. Perhaps some professionals are just a little bit set in their old ways?


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## downeast450 (Jan 16, 2008)

Jeff_H said:


> I think the whole set of frictional loss, and dodger issues are a reflection of sailing styles and venues. Both can be real issues for the way that some folk sail but not for others.
> 
> As someone like myself who loves performance sailing, comes out of racing, single-hands in coastal waters, carries more sail than I should,and is constantly tweaking, I could not live without my lines run aft. I purposely use low friction roller blocks and small diameter low stretch high modulus line to minimize the impact of the lines run aft. Like Take Five points out, I 'jump' my halyards at the mast when there is someone to tail for me, and at those times, I 'sweat' up the last little bit (pull the halyard away from the mast to get more mechanical advantage) which you can't do so easy from the cockpit.
> 
> Jeff


Jeff,

Do you use cam cleats on the mast to hold your halyards, after jumping them, until you can get back to the winch in the cockpit? My boat is set up that way and it works well.

Down


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

outbound said:


> I'm real curious about holes in dodger leading to significant water in cockpit. Built boat with hard dodger. Have 4 lines going through coaming and back to line stoppers then winches on either side of companion way. In past have just set tails of lines under dodger to get them out of the way. House top is beveled. Figured any water coming in would be minimal and run along leeward inside of dodger. Will have limber holes if necessary but now have gutter in forward cockpit seat so water would go to scupper. ?Is this really an issue especially as I tend to wear my foulie bottoms most always to keep my clothes underneath dry and salt free when doing passages? If a real issue may just stick a sponge in the holes which would pop out if lines were adjusted. Also tend to leave lowest board in most times as agree inside of boat should always be dry.


I wouldn't describe the issue as being one of a "significant" amount of water being admitted to the cockpit... I first mentioned the problem in another thread on leading lines aft, and would classify this as more of an _'annoyance'_ than anything, one of several downsides that I see to lines led aft and passed through the leading faces of dodgers... Agreed, this is not likely to be much of a problem on your boat, and I generally see it to be much more of an issue on boats with conventional soft dodgers, and much more loosely configured cut-outs for the lines...

Again, on boats primarily being day sailed or cruised shorter distances, this may not necessarily be that big a deal... But during longer stints offshore or underway, there are few greater annoyances than even minor or modest topside leaks, they can really provoke misery, and diminish the crew's morale... The space under the dodger affords the only dry or protected spot in the cockpits of most boats, and any effort to keep it _truly_ dry will be rewarded... That spot either side of the companionway becomes a catch-all for stuff like gloves, or your copy of Eldridge, so even a modest amount of water seeping in can make you wish it was more watertight...

It's hard to understate how even the most innocuous ingress of water can ruin your day... I delivered this Trintella 50 for years, which featured this watertight doghouse that was much appreciated in dirty weather... But, stuff the bow on that boat into a big head sea, it's not difficult to picture how easily green water can be swept back on deck to that doghouse...










I was taking VALOUR one time from Jersey City up to Newport for the Bermuda Race, and the last half of the trip featured some hellacious weather, and a torrential downpour that lasted the better part of a day... After arriving at NEB, we noticed that the beautiful (and rather expensive) fine art print of a John Stobart painting that was mounted on the main bulkhead had become water-stained...

Spent most of the following day trying to find the source of the leak, after removing the entire overhead, etc... Turned out it was barely traceable, the most minor leak imaginable, at the base of one of _windshield wipers_ on the doghouse, and migrated forward and down the bulkhead...


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Thanks Jon for your insight. Will pay attention to this on transit from Norfolk to R.I.. You got my brain working on how to decrease water ingress. Have much less experience than you but have had occasion of looking forward and just seeing the rig from the gooseneck up. Got rid of a solar vent in the middle of the overhead (now a deck plate) of the saloon because of just the same concern. Boy that Trinella is gorgeous. ?Do they still make any aluminum boats or just GRP?


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

SchockT said:


> Yes, clearly we are speaking from different perspectives. The only open ocean sailing I have done is on race boats where there are no dodgers, and the cockpits get wet.(mind you we aren't in the habit of burying rails and punching through waves!) If fact 90% of all the sailing I have done has been on boats without dodgers at all, so I have to chuckle when people wring their hands over getting a bit of water in the cockpit! Whatever do you do when it rains?


The boats I raced for 30 years on foredeck (wet) were all fiberglass below except for the sole. Cushions were vinyl covered. Bedding was double-bagged and we had plenty of double-bagged towels as well. When we ran out of dry stuff we coped.

That's entirely different from a cruising boat with rugs and maybe carpet, nice outfit below, and especially if it is someone's home, or available for private charter.

For small crews and long passages, including day after day droning down the ICW, water in the cockpit is a big deal. It soaks books, kills personal electronics, and makes the watch miserable. In those circumstances it isn't a race and you don't have the benefits of commiseration with a good-sized watch. Of such things are divorce made.



SchockT said:


> If you are worried about getting splashed when a wave washes the length of your deck, and hits your dodger with enough force for significant water to come through and splash you and make you uncomfortable for an entire watch, I would suggest that you are not dressed appropriately for the conditions!


Run seven to ten days and your opinion will change. Look at the difference between boats in Nanny Cay or BEYC with foulies hung everywhere and crew making run after run to the laundry and those with happy crew and happy owners sitting at the pool bar.



SchockT said:


> As for professionals saying the friction is not negligible, I think the fact that the vast majority of boats built today are rigged with lines aft, including race boats where being able to hoist and drop sails quickly and smoothly and make adjustments quickly and smoothly is paramount puts that opinion into question!


Not relevant for cruising boats. Lines are run aft because people THINK it is "better" and it sells. The same reasoning has led to big open salons with few handholds. Not relevant for race boats when the foredeck monkey is at the mast jumping the halyard for sail changes. Why do you think I have a sailbag that fits three sets of foulies? On a race boat you don't care that the cabin top is dominated by four winches to tweak one line or another.



SchockT said:


> The convenience and versatility of aft lines easily outweighs any increased friction in almost every case. Perhaps some professionals are just a little bit set in their old ways?


Ah. So the increased friction DOES exist. It's just that Jon and I and perhaps Andrew are stuck in old ways, despite the listings of current technology we carry on our own boats. Despite miles under our keels on modern boats. Okay, fine. We're old fogies. Our advice isn't applicable to real sailors. Our long won scars aren't relevant to your needs. That's all okay with us.

Jon and I only know each other through these and other forums. Yet you hear the same sort of advice from both of us. Jon and I are looking forward to finally meeting this year. We'll get a picture sitting in rocking chairs, swaddled in afghans, sipping watered down rum watching new(er) sailors make the mistakes we have made and learned from instead of benefiting from our counsel and moving forward to make new and creative mistakes.

By no means do I suggest that I have all the answers. I learn something new nearly every day. "If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants."

When Jon and I agree I suggest there is value in listening whether you go your own way or not. When Jon and I disagree and hold a public discourse with contributions from many others there is probably yet more to be gleaned. I have had the benefit of participating in a number of discussions with and between luminaries of the sailing community during my tenure with SSCA and I learn a lot listening to conversations between people like Evans Starzinger and Nigel Calder. While Jon and I are not in the category of such as they we do have much to offer and are happy to share what we have learned with the sailing and cruising communities. It is up to you to decide if what we offer has value to you or not.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

Some people actually like working on deck and don't mind getting wet. Leading all my lines to the cockpit? Geez, what a lot or work and money for so little gain. Everything so simple to do at the mast. Not sure about all the personal gear in the cockpit getting wet, but, for me if it's in the cockpit, it might get wet and ruined if not up to snuff. We get torrential Sumatra squalls and wind here in SE Asia, we get WET in the cockpit, down below it's dry and cosy and hot. Nice to get a free fresh water shower while we are SAILING! I'm just a grotty yachtie, sailing a small boat on a big ocean, a bit wet at times, rocking chair not in sight, and no way am i a professional in any way shape or form. A week or ten days wet? Geez you guys are must be getting old? We are wet all the time! Baby powder works wonder for those wet spots.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

I will say again that i agree with much of what Dave and Jon are saying. This is a rare occasion by the way(snicker). I will say once again that on the tayana (trad slab reef) it is best for halyard and reefs to be at the mast. The difference between a 30' racer or coastal boat and the tayana are significant. Superman couldn't get that sail up by hand at the mast. You are going to go up there anyways and the friction on these boats is significant. Now, compare that to many of the boats i have raced on or smaller boats and it is totally different. 

I will disagree with them though on my boat or any inmast- there is no reason at all to have them at the stick. That is the benefit of inmast. I hAve had my dodger blown out, but prepare for it. When seas hit that point the companionway closed. Water runs off. You do need to plan ahead with where to put salty foul weather gear. Crew always walks to same place and keep that open. A shower is a great substitute for a wet locker. That is what we use. 

Brian


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