# Firearms



## ISLANDCHIEF60 (Aug 4, 2003)

Ok, I`m going to stir up an age old discussion as to weather or not one should carry arms or not on their boat.
I`ve served 14 years in the military and so I expect to have a little different view on survival with Human animal attacks. Anyone who shows up at your boat with a gun will shoot and kill you. At least this is what you should asume. Most theives carry guns for intemedation. However,they will also kill you depending on cercomstances involved;ie Is the leader of the bunch is ruthless or maybe they realize that after taking your belongings they can`t leave anything or one behind. An old pirate saying "Dead Men Tell No Tales" is something to think about. My Father told me to never pull a gun on someone unless you intend to use it. So therefore, I can only asume the same when they come a calling. If any of you out there decide to carry arms aboard, then seek some proffesional training on guns and self defence tactics. At least you`ll have a better understanding on what to do if ever placed in that position. I would like to hear more on this so please write in.
Thanks, Chuck


----------



## bob_walden (May 1, 2003)

You''re right, this is an old chestnut.

I used to believe the way you seem to. But some recent events, such as Peter Blake''s unfortunate demise, and discussions with some folks in the Caribbean who''d had first-hand experience with pirates in South America, made me change my mind. Odds are, they will be packing more heat than you will be, by far, and will have less to lose if they pull the trigger. They usually don''t give you much warning either--it''s often at night, at anchor, while you''re asleep. 

Not that piracy is common--it isn''t. 

Some might say (and I used to be of this mind) that having the gun hidden on the boat somewhere is good insurance. Just having it doesn''t mean you''ll use it, right? But it''s there if the "right" bad situation develops. 

But a killer (no pun intended) problem for the full-time cruiser is, what are you going to do with it when you come into port? Clearing customs is getting harder and harder all the time. I don''t know the custom laws for firearms around the world, but I do know you''d better not have one on board in the BVI or Mexico if the customs or guara folks decide to search your vessel. Especially a hidden one. 

Stay alert, anchor near others, talk to locals about your proposed route, don''t draw attention to yourself in port...

Just my .02, of course. 

bw


----------



## Magic_Moments (May 15, 2003)

I have a handgun and I have been around them all my life, but I don''t ever have any gun on my boat. The penalty for having a gun (handgun) found on your boat far outweighs any reason for having it. Not only are they illegal to have in Mexico and Canada, but some states prohibit you from having them even if you are passing through. I am thinking of New York but there could be others.
Most attacks or robberies I have heard of take place at night or in isolated places as has been posted. Most injuries happen when a robbery is interrupted or resistance is offered. I have to believe that my life is worth more than stopping some thief from making off with $200 in cash and my stereo. If you must have some sort of weapon, the most effective thing is a can of Mace and a good solid wood baton. In my area the most dangerous thing is the US Navy in their high speed inflateables with .50 cal machine guns mounted front and back in case my sailboat suddenly sprouts Weapons of Mass Distraction.

The thing that draws the burglars to you is the huge wad of cash some people flash when shopping and the shiney new outboard hung on your dinghy.
I also endorse weapons training if you own one (or more). My parents sent me to some safety classes before they let me take marksmanship classes or shoot on ranges. 
Ken


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I concur with Bob & Ken. I''ve always had a handgun in my home for protection and have carried one in my motorhome for the same reason.

However, a handgun on a boat is too much of a liability. As pointed out earlier, if it comes to a "shootout" with whomever, chances are you will be outgunned. So you and your family will probably come out on the short end of such an encounter. also as pointed out, most banana republics are very strict on gun possesion. Even if you declare your weapons onboard, chances are that some official could hold you out for "mordida" by "discovering" the weapons you have declared.

A couple of years ago, a father and son, on a formidable yacht, enroute from 
Florida to California, ended up in a Mexican jail after declaring two semi-automatic rifles carried on their boat. They were the victims of local officials over-extending their authority. But it took pressure from the U.S. government to get the elderly father released from jail. The son was incarcerated for several months before his trial finally came up and he was ultimately released. 

It seems the liability of carrying a gun far outweighs the security it might provide. Alternate means of protection are probably a better choice. A large sheath knife, a cargo hook, mace, maybe a speargun. All would serve as a deterent in the close quarters of a cabin.

Jim


----------



## DuaneIsing (Jul 10, 2001)

I have thought long and hard about this subject, too, and decided against carrying a firearm aboard. All the points made by the previous posters seem valid to me.

While I explored this subject, I kept picturing that one situation where (moments before I was killed), I regretted not having a gun. But after thinking about how many ways having the gun aboard is a real problem, and the fact that having one does not at all guarantee your safety, I decided against it.

It does seem to me that the majority of negatives stem from the authorities imposing rules. And the ones who are (negatively) affected by the rules are the rule-abiding people of this world. The would-be criminals don''t follow the rules, and thus always have the advantage in cases like this. That''s been the story for quite a while, now, I''m afraid.

Regards,
Duane


----------



## ISLANDCHIEF60 (Aug 4, 2003)

Exactly what happened to Peter blake? What were the turn of events? I don`t know, thats why I`m asking. I keep hearing his name thrown around but no one can tell me what really happened.


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

He was attacked by pirates in the Amazon and shot in the back.


----------



## ISLANDCHIEF60 (Aug 4, 2003)

Your correct in keeping a low profile and about handguns. However a short barreled shot gun works best with safty slugs. They do a number on the intruder but not as much on your boat. I`ve also seen guys in my unit squirt pepper spray in there mouths so I don`t hold alot faith in that. Although pepper spray made for Grizzly Bears is whats in order. Now! Here is the part that really Pisses me off. You say your not Willing to take a chance on getting kill for two hundred dollars and a stereo. Are you willing to asume that`s all they want? Sons and daughters are out there deffending your way of life and your not willing to defend yourself? What a waste! I can`t believe what I`m reading here. Here`s the worst part. I`ll hear your May-Day and come to your aid. Get some Back Bone Friend!


----------



## ISLANDCHIEF60 (Aug 4, 2003)

Do you Know how the events took place?


----------



## ISLANDCHIEF60 (Aug 4, 2003)

Hey Jim. What makes your home any different than your sail boat? A shoot out is a shoot out. It dosen`t matter where it happens. Semi Auto matic weapons will draw more attention than a shot gun would. I would`nt bet on mace. Spear guns, no follow up shot.


----------



## jbarros (Jul 30, 2002)

It seems to me that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, and a firearm, if cruising outside the US, specificly where they are illegal, (EG Mexico, etc) is a ton of cure, and it may just be the source of more problems than it fixes. 

James Baldwin has a decent article on dealing with Piracy, on sailnet as a matter of fact: 

http://www.sailnet.com/collections/articles/index.cfm?articleid=baldwi0011

Basicly, a gun may help get you away from pirates, but it''s not guaranteed. there is a chance you could make it through mexican waters without a gun, but a greater one that you''ll be spending a few months or more in a mexican prison. Myself, I''ll take my chance with out the gun, and just make sure pirates know that I''m not an easy target, and they should just move on to someone else, or at least leave me alone. Dont need a gun to do that. 

Basicly, what seperates my home from my boat, is that my home wont be floating through areas where guns are strictly illegal, and the local LEO belive that the only reason someone would have a gun is to Shoot THEM with it. That makes for a less than hospitibal welcome. 

-- James (Not Baldwin  )


----------



## ISLANDCHIEF60 (Aug 4, 2003)

Thanks Duane, Your right it dosen`t seem right about criminals carring guns but that`s the fact of it. How ever if you say that "just before you were to be killed that if you had a gun that it still would`nt have mattered? Of course it would. At least you would have had a chance. It`s the willingness to survive that makes the difference. You have to be as mean as they are.


----------



## DuaneIsing (Jul 10, 2001)

IslandChief60,

I''m not sure if you are addressing your comments to all of us who replied to your post, but it doesn''t really matter. I take exception to your comment, "... and you are not willing to defend yourself?"

It doesn''t seem to me to be just a simple question of: "Should I take a firearm and have the possibility of defending myself, OR, should I just forget it and hope for the best." I work with weapons all the time (I have designed experimental high rate-of-fire cannons for the US Navy and Army, BTW), so I have a healthy respect for the safety and responsibility aspects of firearms.

From all the cruising info I have read: if you take the gun(s) cruising, you will face the very real possibility every day that you will be boarded by authorities and that for one reason or another, you will wind up in jail for a long time, your boat will be confiscated, or something else very unpleasant. As I said in my last post, the rules favor the criminals.

In the US, citizens using deadly force often say, "better to be judged by 12, than carried by 6." [In case anyone doesn''t get that, it means it''s better to use your gun illegally if necessary and face a jury rather than being carried away in a coffin.]

Decide for yourself what you think the risks are on both sides and act accordingly.

Since I think you mentioned you are in the US military, allow me to thank you for your service to our country.

Regards,
Duane


----------



## ISLANDCHIEF60 (Aug 4, 2003)

It seem that there really isn`t a clear way to deal with piracy. It all falls on the shoulders of the victims and how they decide to deal with the event.I`m not sure that carring a shot gun on board is the right answer or not but it will be part of my defense program along with other preventive measures. Thanks guys for your opinion.


----------



## DuaneIsing (Jul 10, 2001)

Hey, IslandChief60.

Whether we choose the same path or not, I still wish you good fortune and safe passages.

Duane


----------



## ISLANDCHIEF60 (Aug 4, 2003)

Thank you Duane for your contribution as well. I was a forward controller in the USAF before I cross trained and went into the Reserves. Ive spent a lot of time in the Banana Belt. Some of the officals are the very same ones who will inspect your boat one day and rob it the next. Or they supply the crinals with info for exchange of the cut. I liked your saying. Sadly it`s very true. I would really like to hear about some of your other Ideas on defending your boat of would be theives. 
Thanks, Chuck


----------



## eds928gt (Sep 28, 2001)

From what I''ve read, most international cruisers don''t recommend carrying a firearm onboard. Besides the very real possibility of being thrown in jail by not-so-nice local police, there is also the likelihood that by brandishing your weapon, you may encite an escalated response from perpetrator(s).

Also, if the weapon accidently discharges it could cause bodily harm to you or your crew, not to mention the fact that it may put a hole in the hull which will need immediate repair if it''s below the waterline. :^(

I think the movie "Bowling for Columbine" may provide further insite.

BTW, there are other legal ways of providing self protection while onboard. Some have already mentioned, knives and spearguns, but we should all carry a flare-gun too. Remeber the movie "Dead Calm"? Now that was scary!

~ Happy sails to you ~ _/) ~


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I must say this is a thoughtful discussion...quite unlike many threads on this subject.

I will throw in my $0.02. I am a former naval officer and small arms qualified. I have never owned any firearm of any sort and do not intend to. 

I believe first and foremost in prevention...not looking like a target and not showing money or possessions. And avoiding areas where there might be trouble. Having been to some of the worst places on earth for violence...I have no interest in seeing them again.

I also believe in the numbers. Pirate attacks are rare, especially fatal ones. I am much more concerned with the sea and weather. I need to focus on making my boat a safe vessal for passagemaking and will not devote much if any time to pirates.

The issue of having a firearm aboard and dealing with the myriad of local authorities and their whim of the day is most significant. You are simply offering them probable cause to throw you in jail. And in third world countries, you do not have the rights we enjoy here. You could be there a long time, lose your boat etc.

Finally, being in a firefight would be your worst nightmare. If you are attacked by pirates, they get to chose the time and place, they have thought out their strategy and tactics in advance, they have experience in doing this and there will be more of them than you and they will have more firepower. 

You can fight off prowlers and petty thieves without firearms. 

You will not be able to fight off pirates with any firearm you could bring aboard. 

One sad article I read on piracy was a story of a couple cruising. They were approached by a boat they thought to be pirates. The boat came along side and they were talking to the husband. While this was happening, his wife went to the forward hatch and came out with a gun. They shot her dead in an instant and simply left. 

Respectfully,


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

about Peter Blake, I think the big issue his case brought up is the one we''re discussing here... namely that as the pirates boarded him, he ducked below to grab his gun and was shot to death. I think that the pirates ended up just stealing his watch.

A couple of additional thoughts... if there wasn''t a problem with legality, a rifle could be a good deterent. If someone is looking for an easy score, they''re less likely to go after someone that they know is armed. I''m thinking about Joshua Slocum discouraging Feugoen Indians from attacking him by brandishing his trusty rifle.

The Grisly Bear Pepper Spay is pretty impressive to watch... I think I saw it used on TV once...

I think it would be great to have some tear gas grenades on hand. Toss a couple up on deck or into the cockpit if someone boards you. Anyone know about the legality of something like this?


----------



## ISLANDCHIEF60 (Aug 4, 2003)

How about setting up a fire extinguisher system in your cockpit only its filled with Hi-strength pepper spray. Or motion sensors that turn on your flood lights. Mini cams are great for seeing whats going on outside while your locked inside your boat. Alarms that set off a loud air horn or sierin. If all of that fails, then break out the Big Whiskey. Then they deserve to have their asses blown off.


----------



## jbarros (Jul 30, 2002)

Regarding bowling for columbine, please read this: http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html

Back on topic:

I am a big fan of shooting, both for food, sport, and self protection. I chose not to keep firearms on my boat. Whatever you do, to rptect yourself, do it responsibly. 

-- James


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

When I was younger my brother and I hunted and shot rifles and handguns competitively. Even then I dreamt of sailing around the world and when I bought my Mini-14 (Ruger) it was stainless.

There has also been a movie based on a real life incident starring Richard Crenna, I think, in which a cruising couple disappears and the woman''s skeleton is found by a skin diver sometime later in a crate at the bottom of a south pacific bay.

In the movie, supposedly recounted by the girlfriend of the man who killed the couple, the husband had a nice array of firearms hidden within a bulkhead of his boat. Ultimately, the handgun he pulled out for safety was no defense as a few days later he was killed in his sleep by someone who crept aboard his boat.

Recently, a book came out on piracy. It''s on my "to read" list. But according to reviews and the dust jacket, the author got the idea to write the book when he was boarded and robbed at sea while single-handing near Singapore, I think. As a result, he researched modern piracy and wrote his book, coming out against the use of firearms as a deterent to piracy on practical grounds.

And, though there are times when a semi-automatic rifle may do the trick against opportunistic thieves, I have heard that some modern pirates, such as those off Venezuela or in the Malaysian straights, have access to cannons which they mount on their bows. To defend against this would call for a long-range firefight with the longer range weapons winning out. (Perhaps LAWs or Recoilless rifles.)

Nonetheless, sneakier (such as automatic pepper spray nozzles mounted in the cockpit and on the beams) seems, overall, more prudent. But who would actually go through the trouble to do this?

On the other hand, a 44 carbine (again Ruger) is a great way to dispatch a hooked shark thrashing about at your transom.

Chas


----------



## pirateofcapeann (Aug 27, 2002)

Even in places where a firearm would be illegal, a flare gun is accepted. Now, if someone were to board my vessel with malicious intent, I’d think that a face full of burning goo would change his mind. I understand that a flares shot can not be extinguished and needs to burn out on their own. So even if an assailant were to jump in the water, he’d still be burning. Accuracy? How accurate do I need to be in a small boat? If you want a little more kick, someone makes a shell that fits the Olin flare guns just for the purpose. Other then that, as a true pirate, I have other, very effictive means to repel boarders and one would do well to not test my resolve by putting my life or the lives of my crew in jeopardy.


----------



## Magic_Moments (May 15, 2003)

I fail to understand why I lack backbone for not wanting to stop some heavily armed people from taking my stereo when I have insurance that will replace it with a newer better one. Its not worth my life to stop them. It is my understanding that in most parts of the world, the friendly natives (the entire reason for travelling in the first place)come up to your boat often bumping it wanting to sell you fresh fish or just say hi, don''t look much different from the evil pirates so going Rambo on them will get you on the wrong side of the law pronto.

If I wanted to be a complete paranoid I wouldn''t be out sailing, I would be safe inside my bunker in Montana. They have excellent sailing there too.(Flathead Lake)

Ken
not Rambo


----------



## DuaneIsing (Jul 10, 2001)

Agreed; this is probably the most civilized discussion involving firearms yet. 

I gave more thought to this on my commute this morning. I face real risks (with potentially lethal consequences) quite often: my daily 2 hour high-speed commute in NJ traffic; downhill skiing (without a helmet); riding my motorcycle (even with a helmet); flying small single-engined airplanes (admittedly not since I traded my wings for sails a few years ago); telling my wife that, yes, those pants do make you look fat (grin); etc.

In each of those cases, I could die or be seriously injured if something really bad happens, but yet I do them and I don''t worry. What I do is to minimize my risk in those situations through training, awareness, good practices, judgement (well, there''s no good judgement in the wife''s pants comment), etc. 

I have the same philosophy about potential thievery and outright pirate attacks. I will try to employ the preventive tactics others have mentioned. I will also give some thought to last-ditch defensive measures that don''t involve an actual firearm (for those situations where such measures might be truly helpful).

As an aside, I see one area where I will suffer a disadvantage. We will not likely have an expensive boat for our cruising, but I do believe in keeping a boat as bristol as possible. I know that my boat will seem like a more lucrative target for thievery than the derelict-looking one in the same anchorage. ;-)

Regards,
Duane


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Great posts Duane and Ken. Exactly the point and hit the nail on the head. And absolutely yes, there will be many people coming to your boat when you are out there, who are friendly...being paranoid and going postal on everyone who comes near your boat will end your trip very quickly.

PirateofCapeAnn has it right. There are a lot of potential ''weapons'' on board. Your flare gun is one. A spear gun, machette, rigging knife, mace, epoxy (that IS nasty stuff), even a boat hook can be used to dispatch any of the odd bad guys. 

True pirates who are heavily armed are like a Mack truck coming head on on the highway. 

Respectfully

John


----------



## Stede (Jun 13, 2002)

I have a some what different take on the firearms issue.If an intruder were to break into my house in the middle of the night,I wouldn''t be hunting a baseball bat to deal with them.I keep guns in my house for protection of my family, and myself. I see my boat as my second home.I would think that if pirates really wanted to board your boat, it would take more than "A spear gun, machette, rigging knife, mace, epoxy (that IS nasty stuff),or even a boat hook" to stop them. IMO,what it really boils down to is how willing are you, to bet your life that some deviant is going to leave you alone on a yacht worth thousands of dollars after they rob you,while out in a great big ocean. I believe it was the talk show 20/20 that did a story on modern day piracy,and how ruthless these people are. One single-handed sailor had a couple of men approach his boat off of the Mexican coast asking for water. He had been cutting some bread down below prior to their approach. He went down below to get some jugs of water for them,and when he turned around they were on him attacking him with his knife. He struggled, but they slit his throat,and threw him overboard for dead. They then took his boat,with all his earthly belongings.Luckily, the man did survive the attack,and drifted ashore to a small island.There were other similar stories.Nope, the biggest issue I have with carrying a gun aboard isn''t whether I would use it or not if threatened,it''s all the legalities different countries have concerning carrying a gun on board.I''m no Rambo,nor do I take the responsibility of using a gun lightly.I''m just a guy that grew up on "the rough side" of the tracks,and I believe I have a pretty good understanding of the mentality of the types of people we''re talking about.When I do take off cruising full time, I''ll spend some time studying the laws of other countries were I intend to go.Then I''ll make a decision on what''s right for me.


----------



## GordMay (Dec 19, 2002)

STEDE:
So, how would the single-hander''s having a gun aboard have changed this outcome 
(altho'' there''s nothing in the tale that would indicate he didn''t have a fully auto'' assualt rifle, grenades, and LAWS aboard)? 

"...One single-handed sailor had a couple of men approach his boat off of the Mexican coast asking for water. He had been cutting some bread down below prior to their approach. He went down below to get some jugs of water for them,and when he turned around they were on him attacking him with his knife. He struggled, but they slit his throat,and threw him overboard for dead. They then took his boat,with all his earthly belongings ..."

Respectfully,
Gord


----------



## GordMay (Dec 19, 2002)

To all you unarmed wimps:

I’m armed to the teeth, and ready (nay, anxious) and able to use them.

I stand guard against the approach of dangerous intruders, at all times fully prepared to lethally defend my person and property.

I’m disdainful of those foolish foreign backwaters that don’t understand the value (nay, necessity) of an armed population, and actually have the temerity to limit MY freedom to bear arms (when visiting their country).

I KNOW that it’s people that kill people, not guns; and know further the total irrelevance that it’s likely armed people doing the killing.

I’m an *******, and you probably ought not anchor near me, ‘cause I’m a very dangerous ‘hole.

Not as 
Anonymous
As I should be


----------



## DuaneIsing (Jul 10, 2001)

Geez, Gord. I started typing a response to your last post, then it hit me that it was sarcasm (at least I hope it was). 

Duane


----------



## Stede (Jun 13, 2002)

GordMay,

When I sail my boat single-handed offshore, I carry a pistol grip, police style 12 gauge shotgun in my cockpit locker for “sharks.” It doesn’t require a lot of aiming. My first course of action regarding a suspicious looking boat approaching me is to watch them through my binoculars. If I feel like something isn’t right, my shotgun is in my lap, in full view as they approach. The gun is loaded, and the safety will be off. Not much of a welcoming invite you might say. Well, I believe we live in a dangerous world my friend. Most criminals understand the concept of a 12 gauge shotgun and are not willing to take the chance that they won’t be hit at close range. I believe honest boaters will understand preventative measures in open water, but if not, so be it. When I’m out in open water in an unfamiliar area, no one comes on board my boat. Someone might say, “what about emergencies,etc.” To that I say, “What if the cow really did jump over the moon?” You obviously have to use your own judgment. As far as the single-handed guy off the Mexican coast, IMO, he made two major mistakes. (1) He assumed he was dealing with rational people. The Caribbean, Bahamas, and other favorite locales of cruisers, are unfortunately areas known for high drug trafficking. Most criminals, when not “on the job” have been known to consume massive amounts of alcohol, and drugs. (2) He went down below while having complete strangers tied up to his boat,in an area he wasn''t accustomed to.If someone that I didn''t trust were to ask me for supplies out in open water, I would oblige them if I could, but they would first have to place several boat lengths between them and myself, and then I would leave the supplies floating for them. If that isn’t possible, then I guess it’s just not their lucky day.If the single-handed sailor would of had a planned safety routine that he followed when strangers approached him in open water, he might not have got his throat cut and lost all of his possessions. Maybe, maybe not? Let me reiterate here that I don’t suggest that my methods are the best. You can place all kinds of “what if” scenarios here and I’m sure that some will question my methods. The bottom line though, is that I don’t let anyone on my boat in open water, and I go by what works for me. If I’m out gunned by some frigging pirates with a cannon on board, then that’s just the way it goes down. I’ll take my chances. The question of using lethal force is a sensitive subject, and I don’t know that there is one correct answer. I do what I believe is right for me, and I respect what others feel is right for them.


----------



## GordMay (Dec 19, 2002)

DuaneIsing:
I''d be interseted in hearing your response to my ''sarcastic'' post.

Stede:
Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts. We (generally) disagree on this subject; but I benefit from hearing a point of view that''s somewhat foreign to my preconcieved philosophy. 
We share a starting point. The single-hander''s first mistake (at least in hindsight) was allowing strangers, unattended, on his boat.
Then, our philosophies diverge: I don''t have time to man my cockpit, shotgun in hand, waiting (& prepared) for trouble. I went cruising to escape the bullshit rampant in modern North American city life., and try hard not to bring it with me.
I DO know that there are bad people out there.
I suspect that they are too bad for me deal with, if they pick me.

To anyone offended by my previouse post: Satire is funnier when it''s directed at others.

Let us make our arguments forcefully, as they represent our considered thought on an important subject. Let us, also, not be offended by emphatic counter-argument.

Respectfully,
Gord


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I think the original question was "should" one carry weapons for self-defense? Any objections I have are either technical or legal, not moral.

For example, what type of armament is most useful and how should it be employed? Should it be carried visibly on the lap, as suggested, or tucked out of sight as a suspicious-looking boat approaches?

And from a legal standpoint, is my life and that of my wife likely to be made better or worse by having a weapon aboard when foreign officials inspect the boat?

I don''t know, but my guess is that shotguns and bolt action rifles will represent less of a risk than semi-automatic firearms, especially large-magazine ones.

As an aside, 30 years ago, a friend of mine returned from the BWI and told of a cruiser he was sailing with down there who, once in open water, pulled out a belt-fed shotgun and mounted it on a stauntion. He said he would fire it on the waterline of an attacking vessel if necessary. Also, he said that it was illegal but that the laws weren''t strictly enforced; again, "better judged by 12..."

I wonder if cruisers today can be so cavalier in foreign waters. Has anyone out there had any experience with this?

Chas


----------



## DuaneIsing (Jul 10, 2001)

GordMay wrote: DuaneIsing, I''d be interseted in hearing your response to my ''sarcastic'' post.

Gord,

I had grown accustomed to well reasoned, civil posts from you at all times, then you posted that "sarcastic" (or is it satirical?) message which seemed so unlike you. That was going to be my main comment in reply.

I was then starting to ask why you had the apparently narrow perception you expressed about how foreign countries can''t be allowed to hinder our American rights, etc., etc. Right about then it hit me that it was so absurd, you HAD to be joking to make a point.

''Nuff said. Regards,

Duane


----------



## Stede (Jun 13, 2002)

[No message]


----------



## tsenator (Nov 6, 2000)

Signed, 

Sir Peter Blake


----------



## ISLANDCHIEF60 (Aug 4, 2003)

To all you Brave Men & Women.
Well, I can see that I`ve really stirred the pot on this one. It was very interesting to see the amount of passive coments stated. We all must decide on weather or not we carry arms on our boats. We also will choose weather we declare them or not or maybe declare one but not all. Just like the people who invade our boats, we also take a chance on if we are to survive the outcome. We all will use our best judgement on how to deal with would be pirates. My hope is that none of us have to terms on this subject,but you just never know. I think it`s best to be prepared for the situation both mentaly and physicaly. Each situation will require a different resolve. If they are beggers, then help them out if you can and keep a watchful eye. If they intend to inflict bodly harm, then you have a difficult choice to make. You also must decide to report it, or leave no trace. Perhaps send a message to the other Pirates out thier as to what`s expected if they they choose to continue their profession. I know that this seems to be a little Rambo-ish but extreme situation require extreme resolve. Good luck to all and thanks for the chat.


----------



## Stede (Jun 13, 2002)

Tsenator,(WhotHeSaid)

You obviously have no respect for the dead,or you wouldn''t be trying to speak for someone that can no longer speak for himself.Apparently you''re unsure of your own views,or you wouldn''t be hiding behind a false-identity to post them. Step out like like a man to state your views,or don''t step out at all.


----------



## bob_walden (May 1, 2003)

Island Chied asked for info about Peter Blake:

Good coverage of the piracy event and Blake''s life:

http://www.latitude38.com/features/Blake.htm

In preceeding, note this:

Tragically, Blake''s decision to defend his boat and crew probably precipitated his death. "If Peter did not arm himself, this maybe would not have happened," said a spokesman for the Brazilian federal police. "The robbers would have taken the objects and left it at that."

And a follow-up: 
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1697358.stm

Note that the bastards were able to argue "self-defence". What a world.

bw


----------



## eds928gt (Sep 28, 2001)

We''ve discussed this at length at home. Since we intend to eventually visit other countries, we have decided that we won''t be armed with any sort of firearm that could cause further delays in clearing customs, or worse legal matters.

If we should be unlucky enough to be boarded by pirates, we think it''s better to let them take whatever, and hope they spare our lives.

Besides, I don''t want the extra hastle of having to clean a gun on a frequent basis (salt air is hard on ferrous metals). I''d rather spend that time making friends. ;^)

~ Happy sails to you ~ _/) ~


----------



## tsenator (Nov 6, 2000)

928frenzy 
"Besides, I don''t want the extra hastle of having to clean a gun on a frequent basis (salt air is hard on ferrous metals). "

Hmm.....but there is a real nice Stainless Steel Pump Action shotgun. I believe Mossberg makes one....just keep a squirt of oil in the chamber.

....Oops....didn''t mean to add fuel to the fire, or powder to the cartridge as it may be....<snicker>


----------



## tsenator (Nov 6, 2000)

Sted 
"You obviously have no respect for the dead,or you wouldn''t be trying to speak for someone that can no longer speak for himself.Apparently you''re unsure of your own views,or you wouldn''t be hiding behind a false-identity to post them. Step out like like a man to state your views,or don''t step out at all. "

OHHHH....PUHLEEEZE. I wrote that in jest and everyone with half an ounce of anything in their head understood that. Geez !! And I know, on this BB, that when you type something in as the name of the author you can still figure out who wrote the post. 

Stop taking everything so seriously.

BTW, I am torn in two different directions on this issue. Personally I don''t think I would want or need a firearm on my boat for the cruising I would likely want to do. But if I was cruising far, far away in areas were you are much further from civilization and you are on your own, then I might possibly consider one.

ps. I have a lot of respect for Peter Blake in what he has done, the way he did it, and what he was doing up until the end. What happened has been hashed and re-hashed on these type of BB over over ad nauseum! And whether I spend all my time posting it here bears no relationship to whether I''m sure of my stance or not. I know it hasn''t occured to you to possibly *think* that maybe most people have stated their opinions so often on a certain subjects that they get so tired of it they don''t want to anymore.


----------



## Stede (Jun 13, 2002)

Tsenator,

I thought my antagonizing remarks to you would get you to step out. Very predictable. I can appreciate that in a fellow half-ouncer ;^ )Yes,I agree with your assessment that topics like these have been hashed over time, and time again. When I read the posts here, I took them for what they were worth and then moved on. That is until I starting seeing comments such as" this is the most civilized conversation we''ve had on this subject, etc." Well, Duh!!" Besides “Island Chief”, basically everyone was saying the same thing. It seemed to me that some of the contributors were a little to comfortable in their assumption. So me, having the curious nature that I have, decided to see how civil the discussion would remain with a very obvious opposing view like mine added to it. My views were written honestly. I wrote them in what I believe to be a constructive manor. Even though I mentioned numerous times that I do what''s right for me, and I respect others doing what is right for them, someone still took offense and the civility of the discussion went right out the window. Also very predictable ;^) Usually in discussions like these,egos eventually force a hand over logic ;^)So what does all this prove? Well to me,it just re-affirms my belief that unless you don''t want to be called an "ass-hole" in discussions like these,it''s best to agree with the majority ;^)But as I said, I do have a curious nature.BTW, If you read my previous posts on the subject, you''ll see that my views aren''t very different than yours. Pretty scary, huh??

P.S.- The SS Mossberg shotgun you mentioned is called the "Mariner" model,isn''t it??


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Would someone please tell me what in the world these last few posts were about? I assumed, I suppose somewhat naively, that this was a question about safety from armed thugs. How did it get turned into a test for personality disorders?

And why would anyone want to bait the readers, and then speak disparagingly about the turn of the discussion?

Sheesh!


----------



## Stede (Jun 13, 2002)

flicker,

Since your questions are really directed at me,I''ll try to answer them.First of all I didn''t "bait" anyone.All I did initially was post my views on the use of firearms,just as I believe you did.I did so respectfully, and in earnest,but yes I did believe I would recieve a negative response because my post was opposing to the majority viewpoint.I''ve seen this scenario played out numerous times on this board.If it''s done constructively,I don''t have a problem with it.In this case,I don''t feel that it was.Go back and read the last 10 or so posts of this topic to see if I''m wrong.As far as my remarks to Tsenator,yes, I''m guilty of making some antagonizing remarks to him. I did so in an effort to get him to step up to express his views on the topic.He hadn''t expressed any views on the topic prior to my postings,but yet felt it was fair game to tag a negative reponse on to my post.I''m old school.If someone disagees with my viewpoint,stand up and say so,and explain to me how I''m wrong,or why you believe you''re right.I can respect that.What I can''t respect is someone going off on some wild tangent because my view doesn''t match theirs,or they''re critical of my viewpoint,but unwilling to provide their own.I believe wise men can agree,to disagree if they are honest with themselves about their pre-concieved biases.


----------



## tsenator (Nov 6, 2000)

Stede. (yeah I can be predictable...I find that a good trait ;-)

I never had a problem with your (or anyones) point of view on this subject. It all depends on how comfortable one is with their own decision to carry. I feel if you are not totally comfortable don''t even think about it.

I just didn''t have the time or energy to originally respond fully and most people covered the bases pretty well.

As I said before most places I would not wantor need to have firearms on board. But If I was a lone sailor in The Far East Seas and a strange boat was motoring over to me, I know I would feel a bit more comfortable standing calmly in the cockpit with a shotgun. If they got uncomfortably close I would think that the universal & unmistakable "Cha Ching" sound of pump action shotgun would send a message.


----------



## Stede (Jun 13, 2002)

Tsenator,

Thanks for your remarks.Fair winds to you my friend.


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

One other thought I had which might satisfy some of the deterent factor, while skirting some of the legal issues would be to have a reasonably stout dog on board.

They''ll definitely let you know when someone''s approaching, and the lack of surprise may deter some.

There are some issues regarding countries that don''t allow animals to enter without quarantine, but perhaps while in those locations, they can just stay on board.

I''m not thinking Bull Mastifs here, but I think the guy on that Adventure Bound show used to have a Bull Terrier (Spuds McKenzie dog) which was fairly compact, fiercly loyal, and ferrocious when necessary.

Just another option on the table.


----------



## ISLANDCHIEF60 (Aug 4, 2003)

mdougan,
I have a Pit Bull on my boat and have personaly found that these working breed dogs are great for this type of living. Alot of people walk around on the docks but when they see him sitting on the bow, they turn right around and go back where they came from. He stays on the boat and dosen`t bother anyone and no one yet as tempted their luck either. The word has gotton around about my Pit and I don`t get to many srays snooping around. You don`t have to have a big dog, just one with a bad rap. I guess some times a bad rap is a good thing.


----------



## Spunt (Sep 23, 2003)

Note "As with most night raids, they didn''t expect any armed resistance. " 

It is my opinion that this is the cause of Sir Blake''s demise. It is further my opinion that this is the most overlooked factor in these types of crimes to date. 

To blame the man who is defending himself and more importantly providing consequences to his attackers is preposterous.



""If Peter did not arm himself, this maybe would not have happened," said a spokesman for the Brazilian federal police."

"After most water rat raids, the robbers melt into the jungle and authorities give only halfhearted chase, if any at all." 

I submit that if this spokesman had been doing his job and punishing these criminals that "this maybe would not have happened"

I further submit that If a band of criminals knows that they may lose a finger or better yet their lives in a "raid" that they might be persuaded to sell drugs or burgle or shoplift for their gains before they consider violently victimizing innocent people at gunpoint. 

Anyway that said I think the use of a flare gun or a spear gun or a bat is just plain more convenient as these foreign countries that do not protect their people or visiting cruisers from their criminal population are often very adamant about disallowing visiting sailors to keep an armed ship. 


-A
"Boat" A23
"Josefina" P26


----------



## jbarros (Jul 30, 2002)

the good thing about having a gun on board is if you come across a dead sea horse, you dont have to kick it, you can just shoot it. 

BANG. 

-- James


----------



## ISLANDCHIEF60 (Aug 4, 2003)

You know we can easly sit back and asume what was the proper response for Sir Blake`s attack. Hine sight is not always 20/20. We will never know what would have happened if he would have done something different. Guns or No Guns I don`t think it would have made a difference. Those people came on board with intent. At least he didn`t passively go down with out a fight. You know what`s so sad about this whole thread is, that for those of you who are of a non violent nature will be the ones shot. As they come on board with there WWII Guns and out dated Ammo You will be franticly pleading " PLEASE, PLEASE TAKE WHAT YOU WANT, BUT DON`T KILL US. PLEASE PLEASE I DON`T....." BANG, BANG, They shoot you just to shut you up. I stand that if they come at you with guns, then BLOW the **** out of them and let them drift away leave nothing that would connect them to your boat and move on to your next cruising grounds. Because that`s exactly what they would do to you. Besides it would send a message to there comrades not to screw around with cruisers. The surrounding communities wouldn`t judge you. Hell they would thank you if they knew. I have travel to some pretty third world places and one thing is for sure, they know who you are and where you came from. If you treat them with respect then thats what you`ll get in return. If you treat them as if they were beneath you then they wont look out for you. They may even point these Pirates in the right direction. But all of this is a moot point right? It will never happen to us right? I don`t need to carry guns right? For those of you that answer RIGHT, well, good luck. And for those that do carry, good luck and hope like hell you never have to be put to the test.


----------



## eds928gt (Sep 28, 2001)

I''m glad to see that this topic has not degenerated into one of "you''re a fool if you carry/don''t carry a firearm onboard".

As pointed out by many, there are pluses and minuses to either decision. I can think of many "what-if" situations where having a gun aboard might help, and just as many where having one aboard might get you into deeper trouble.

Let''s just admit that it''s a hard decision to make, and each of us is the only one who can answer the question, "Should I carry a gun onboard?". Calling someone who doesn''t agree with you "a fool" doesn''t help in a grown-up discussion of difficult issues.

BTW, I choose not to carry, and have many reasons why I don''t. Those reasons are just a valid as the ones presented for carrying.

~ Happy sails to you ~ _/) ~


----------



## ISLANDCHIEF60 (Aug 4, 2003)

I agree. I`m also glad that we aren`t calling each other fools. If you decide to carry arms on board or not you still need to have a plan of action and it would be wise to have an A,B,and C plan. If you go back thru this thread. You will find some pretty good ideas on how to prep yourself, your boat and your family. You Wife or Girlfriend will more than likly be the meanest one for the pirates to deal with. As you guys already know they don`t fight fair. Lessons to be learned here Gentelmen. Anyways good luck to all.

Chuck


----------



## Stede (Jun 13, 2002)

One comment on the firearm/pirate issue."Pirate" is a lucrative term that these people don''t deserve.At best, most are crackheads,or some other type of addict.At worst they''re just ruthless murderers.The term pirate still carries the Hollywood sterotype image of a misunderstood indvidual that lives by a code that has some type of honor to it.Hollywood also painted the image of the old gunslingers as standing toe to toe with their foe and shooting it out in some type of honorable fashion. The truth is, these people ambushed their foes and killed them as quickly and with as little threat to themselves as possible.These type of people have no honor.When Peter Blake was killed in Brazil, the governments response was,"he probably would not have been killed if he hadn''t of tried to defend himself." Some people took that as undisputed fact.To me, it''s just a bunch of crap. I mean what else could they say," Our criminals aren''t really that bad, don''t stop coming here and spending your money?" To say Mr.Blake would not have tbeen killed if he hadn''t tried to defend himself is like saying if you go into the ghetto of any major city, after dark,you won''t be hurt if you talk nice to everyone.How you decide to defend yourself is your choice, but if you ever do cross paths with these sea psychos, don''t count on them giving you a break.


----------



## jbarros (Jul 30, 2002)

Um, I dont think pirates have ever been any diffrent than they are now. I dont think anyone seriously involved in the cruising community thinks of them as Jonnie Depp with a rum habbit and dreadlocks. 

-- James


----------



## Stede (Jun 13, 2002)

[No message]


----------



## jbarros (Jul 30, 2002)

Reread my statement. 

-- James


----------



## eds928gt (Sep 28, 2001)

Pirates of old had guns, cannons, swords, etc. The ships they tried to plunder were usually merchant vessels that weren''t as well armed. Pirates would rather run than engage a "Ship-of-the-line", as they would likey be out gunned, and if captured - hanged from the yardarm.

Now-a-days, there aren''t as many pirates as before, thanks in great part to Coast Guard patrols conducted by nations signatory to international agreements. Of course, some countries have huge coatlines, and scant resources to patrol them. Also, there are countries that don''t put much emphasis on activities beyond their land borders. It''s around these areas of the world were pirates operate, and (sad to say) rarely get caught.

Fortunately, the vast majority of countries patrol their waters, and impose severe penalties on those who violate their laws. That''s good news for the sailing community, since few of us would knowingly want to sail in unprotected or unpatrolled waters.

As in all aspects of life, sailing has its risks. As prudent sailors, we try to plan our cruises to expose ourselves to the least amount of risk. There are no guarantees, but, in many countries, having a gun on board may cause problems when going through customs. Not having one aboard may lead to problems when dealing with pirates that would rather kill/take than just take. This leads to the two questions we must ask ourselves, "How often will go through customs?" and, "How often will we be boarded by killer pirates?"

~ Happy sails to you ~ _/) ~


----------



## ISLANDCHIEF60 (Aug 4, 2003)

Well Stede, I see we`re in accord with this view. As far as how many times we clear custom vs being boarded by thuggs is irelivent. The question should be, what are YOU going to do about it? As I said earlier, are you going to plead for you scurvy hide?Or are you going be meaner than a junk yard dog and send them staight to Hell from which they came? The way I see it if you end up in these waters that are un-protected by the law. Then you are the Capt. You govern what happens to your ship and crew. Take what ever action you need to to render you crew and ship safe, SAVY!! As far as guns on the boat when you clear customs, then trough them overboard. Place your guns in a vacuume sealed plastic bag. Tie some heavy weight fishing line to the bag and over it goes. No one will see any thing tied to the side and there are no guns on board should they inspect. Or claim one gun but not all. In some places they will let you keep your guns and ammo but they will inventory the ammo. They will also want them to be in a lock box. What to do with the guns isn`t the problem. It`s what are you going to do when or if it happens? Again, Guns or No Guns. What are you going to do? Yeah, Let hear about that.


----------



## eds928gt (Sep 28, 2001)

I''ve been to places where having a gun aboard meant confiscation of it if reported, and confiscation of the boat if its found and unreported. Also, the latter case may get you an extended stay at the local (no country-club) jail.

This is just one of the reasons I choose not to carry a gun. Technically, I''m not unarmed, since I still have a flare-gun, a speargun, and some good sized knives. So, if in the extremely unlikely event we''re boarded by pirates, I hope to plead for our lives. If I had a gun aboard, I think the outcome would be just as uncertain as if I didn''t. Perhaps, having it might scare them away, or perhaps it might cause them to shoot first, then ask questions later.

One thing is certain, if there''s no gun aboard, there won''t be any accidentally discharges. No one (me, crew or others) will be accidentally shot/killed, and the boat won''t get a bullet hole (particularly below the waterline).

That''s what I think is best for me and my crew. You do what you think best for you and yours.

~ Happy sails to you ~ _/) ~


----------



## jbarros (Jul 30, 2002)

What am I going to do about it? 

Now THAT is a good question. And while the obvious disclaimers apply (every situation is diffrent, I dont advocate you do anything other than what you are want to do, doing (or not doing) X may get you killed etc etc etc) I think that the answer is a host of small things. 

I''ve been traveling by backpack for about a decade, and only had trouble a few times. And I think not making yourself a target is a good idea. That doesnt mean I make my boat look anything but bristol mind you, but I think that Mr. Baldwin has some good ideas here: http://www.sailnet.com/collections/articles/index.cfm?articleid=baldwi0011

Now, on my boat, which I''m working on with intent to head south eventualy, I dont anticipate it will be too much of an issue. She''s 19 feet, and hasnt as much as an inflatable. The only real target on the boat would be the outboard. 

Now, were I surrounded by an army of ak47 toting gurilla''s on high speed boats who thought a 19 foot boat was worth their time, I suppose I''d grab my papers, and life raft, and promptly give up the boat.  

Were I aproached by some local small time opertunist theif (which has happened to me more in Los Angeles than anywhere outside of the country) I''d let them know that I only had X small amount of money left (never over $5 ), and do they know where I can get (food, gas, whatever) for free or realy cheap. I''ve managed to talk my way out of a few robbbings here in LA that way (yes, I''m a wimp, but I''m a living wimp) and while I''m asking this I just get ready to defend myself as best I can. I have no doubt that the stick I carried when backpacking had some part in the thought process of people deciding not to come after me. 

They dont need to think that they cant get me. They only need to think they can get someone easier. It''s sad, but it''s true. The bottom line is, even with a gun, I dont think that I can do enough damage to make theft and piracy less of a problem for everyone, but I trust in myself to come through safe in most situations. I think having a flair gun on your belt, and a radio in your hand, and being visable like this can go along way to stop an altercation from happening long before a gun becomes a necessary last resort. But to each their own. You are the captain of your ship, and in the end it''s your freedom, and your life both that your protecting. 

Do what though wilt shall be the whole of the law. 

-- James


----------



## garygroves (Apr 19, 2003)

The issue of firearms on board a boat is one that will never be resolved, even after years of thoughtful discussion. However, before one decides whether to carry firearms or not, (as several posters have said, they carry flares, spearguns, knives, etc), you need to seriously "soul search" as to whether you can put an end to someone else''s life. I''m no liberal "right to lifer - at any age" puke. I''ve made up my mind and can live with myself. But guns or no guns - if you pull a knife, be ready to use deadly force because that is exactly what the other guy will do, only without hesitation or second thought.
First decide if you are willing to take a life, without hesitation. Then decide if carrying a firearm is the best method for you and your family/crew.


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

As time passes by it seems that people who have something are hated by the ones that do not have. The third world is where you find allot of this have not and here in New Orleans where I live. Oh maybe this is a third world country to.I am willing to die for my wife or any of my children and even a few friends. I would like to see a law by the US government stating that any US vessel is part of the country of the United States of America and can be protected as such and if we want to cary a shotgun in a locked box then so be it. However dream on America it aint happinin. I have however always carried an old bang stick or two in my tool box one 357 and one 12Ga and they don''t look like a gun and don''t draw much attention. They may be aginst the law in some places but it would be a hard call. As for lethal well the pirate you hit with one is history. I have seen what it does and it aint nice. The other thing is keep the buggers off the boat if you can. I think if we would look close at out stantions and life lines we may find that they are compleatly isolated and insulated on fiberglass boats. If you put a charge through the wires and someone touches it like a cattle fence WHAM! the shock will put you on your butt real quick. This could give you all the time you need to cut the lines and motor full speed away while sounding a horn air type until the can runs out and every light burning flares flying loud speekers screaming out in the local language (police put your hands in the air) and all.Very LOUD sounds tend to disorient people as in a Marine screaming his battle cry as loud as he can it throws the enemy off when he is confronted with the loud shreik. This sound is usually asociated with the next thing "death" The real shock and auw weapon.The pirate likes the stelth of his attack take that away and your half way to winning a fight.


----------



## eds928gt (Sep 28, 2001)

Well, I certainly wouldn''t want any other country imposing its laws on us, so I don''t think the USA should have the authority to impose its laws (or lack of them) on everyone else. For me, I like living in a world with many different social and idealogical points of view. After all - "Variety is the spice of life."

That may mean in some countries, posession of a firearm is illegal, while in others it''s ok. If you plan on cruising to foreign ports, you''ll have to deal with that reality.

Perhaps we should not lose sight of the fact that piracy is extremely rare. Swimmers are at greater risk of being attacked by a shark, yet very few swim with a bang-stick or a spear-gun or even a knife. Basically, most swimmers try to avoid shark infested waters. Perhaps, the best defense against piracy is to avoid areas where piracy has been known to occur. If you do, you''ll still be able to cruise about 99.99% of the planet''s coastlines and oceans. ;^)

~ happy sails to you ~ _/) ~


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

One thing that bothers me is the assumption that someone boarding your boat is just out to rob you. Maybe they want to steal your boat!!! That leaves you looking at a long swim. Maybe they like the looks of your wife or daughter!!!! Maybe they are just mad dog mean.
Personally I wouldn''t shoot anyone unless I felt that my life or the life of a loved one was in danger. 
As to weapons a 12 gauge loaded with slugs can blast some nice holes in a boat. Sure a gun isn''t going to save you in all situations but I''d rather have a gun. The only other choice is to ask them to be gentle while they are rapeing your wife,daughter or maybe they like guys....Ever heard the expression squeal like a pig???


----------



## MDDesperado (Oct 9, 2003)

OK...let''s move the discussion somewhat.

Let''s say I''ve decided to arm myself while on-board.

Where would you hide a weapon to give you the best chance that it would NOT be found if your boat where boarded by the local authorities? Any thoughts?

Also, are there weapons that break down so that the individual parts can be easily hidden in such a manner that it is obvious that they are part of a weapon?


----------



## eds928gt (Sep 28, 2001)

I''m sure there are lots of guns that can be dismantled into pieces that cannot be easily identified as parts of a gun. However, a gun in pieces doesn''t work very well. A secret hold could easily be made to hide an entire weapon if need be, but if it''s hard for an inspector to find, it''s likely to be hard to get easy access to the weapon when needed.

However, the down-side risk of having an undeclared gun found (or its parts found and identified as part of a gun) by an eagle-eyed inspector are enormous. Are you willing to spend hard and long jail time, and also lose your boat for a gun that will most likely never be neeed?

~ Happy sails to you ~ _/) ~


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I don''t recommend illegally carrying a gun!!! And for a gun to be of any use it has to be immediately usable. It is a sad state of affairs when governments decide that the best way to protect criminals is to forbid citizens owning guns. Some states in the US are in favor of citizens. Alabama Georgia florida and Mississippi all have weapon permits that allow a citizen to protect themselves legally. But in the Northeast they consider an armed citizen a threat and have significant punishments...
In over 30 years of various outdoor activities often in remote locations I''ve never needed a gun. The only time I''ve pulled my pistol out was with a stray Pit Bull terrier that was acting aggressively. But with my 9mm ready to shoot I was able to scare him off with a stick. Once anchored out with my wife in a remote location a couple of guys acted suspicously. After a while they moved off. 
A gun should be a last option to protect your life!!!! Don''t use a gun to threaten another person. For one thing it is a felony. Another important point is that if you are in a remote location and threaten someone with a pistol they may come back later with a rifle!!! and some friends. Also shoot to kill!!!! In a stress filled life threatening situation no one is cool headed and a good enough shot to try and wound someone. Cowboys shooting the gun out of someone hand is about as realistic as superman flying!!! Shoot for the torso,right in the middle of the chest.


----------



## MDDesperado (Oct 9, 2003)

Why do people persist in advising me and others whether or not to bring along a firearm? 

I/we certainly understand the arguments pro and con. We''re adults and we know the possible ramifications.

All I''m asking for is advice in how to best hide or disguise the weapon.

Thanks.


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

mr desperado; It may seem obvious but I''ve often stated the obvious so here goes. If I had found the perfect way to hide a gun there is no way in hell that I or any sane person would announce it to the world!!!! Something is not hidden well if the world knows where it is hidden. It''s kinda like asking a stranger where and when he and his beautiful wife like to go skinny dipping.


----------



## MDDesperado (Oct 9, 2003)

c172guy...don''t buy it. 

I, nor anyone else on this list I suspect, is a threat to anyone''s secret hiding place because I/we have no idea who you are or where your boat is at any given time...and besides that, I''m not one of the bad guys out trolling for targets.


----------



## jbarros (Jul 30, 2002)

I once helped a friend create a glassed in compartment over the engine. His logic being that if it was desperate enough situation to have a gun, then it was desperite enough to get a couple glass splinters. Personaly I think over the engine is an assanine place, because if (God Forbid) your engine did go up, then you get to play fire fighter with the extra game of wondering when the ammo''s gonna bake off. 

However, I think that glassing in a compartment, specificly in a small area where it would be hard to see the change in depth of compartment. Of course, as mentioned above, this means getting some glass splinters to get the gun, but provided you''re using it to save your life, thats a small price to pay. Because, you arent going to be flourishing your gun somewhere it''s illegal in a non life and death situation right? 

-- James


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Who are you hiding the gun from?? If it is from the coast guard I doubt that glassing it in will work. I''ve heard of them drilling into keels looking for drugs. A glassed in area will probably get their attention. Then they''ll tear the rest of the boat apart looking for drugs etc... I am afraid that the CG are so experienced in looking for drugs that they are probably way ahead of anything we might think of doing. The best option is probably to have a disposable weapon!!!! Something that you can drop overboard if boarded. For entering a country probably the best option would be to make the weapon waterproof and drop it overboard with a waypoint on your GPS before clearing in. Then retrieve it later. Even if they find the weapon under water they will have to make some effort to link it to a particular boat. A caveat is that it is hard to find something underwater. They do sell marker pingers but then someone else might find it. It goes without saying that a disposable gun should not be traceable especially if you kill someone. It is a damnable situation that we are placed into. How to protect ourselves and our loved ones without ending up in jail!!! If you kill someone in self defense how do you prove it was justified??? Especially if they don''t have a criminal record. They say they were fishing and you went into a rage because they anchored too close!!! Of course it is better to be in court than in the grave.


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I think this is the second time in this thread that the idea was proposed of dropping a gun overboard while near port and retrieving it later.

I suppose it depends on where and how you do it. I know that boaters in this hemisphere have been surveilled and photographed by drug interdiction forces dropping and retrieving objects. The odds are you won''t be seen, but it''s possible. I think that retrieving the gun might be the bigger problem. And any way that you mark the site might call it to the attention of others as well.

Chas


----------



## ISLANDCHIEF60 (Aug 4, 2003)

First off, find out the rules on firarms well in advance of the intended port. If the area is of risk and you have to declare you gun then declare it. It`s best if its a gun that you don`t mind getting banged up a bit. Now I can already hear it. Thats when you`ll need the gun, when your at anchor. What I`m about to tell you is totaly your choice and your risk. Keep a hand gun or another shot gun on board. I perfer a Glock 40S&W with safty slugs. First off the Glock is easier to hide. Second they have a poloy frame with a stainless steel barrel. With the use of safty slugs you don`t have to worry about damaging your boat or hitting someone else. The best part is you don`t have to worry about the person getting back up again. Glock pistols are easy to use and mine has never jamned. It`s provided me with years of service in all kinds of conditions. In my opion there is no finer gun on the market. Best of all it`s affordable. If you do have to rid your boat of vermin. Then you need to decide on how you clean up the mess. I don`t think I would be calling the police. Maybe one should despose of the body, clear customs and move on to an undisclosed port. I know that this dosen`t sound very moral like, however with the way things are in this world and the lack of law enforcement in the international community we really only have one choice. That is to protect your way of life no matter the cost. Freedom is not free. I don`t like the idea of going to such extrems either, but if thats what it takes then so be it. Only kill if it is the last resort. You will know when it comes to that.


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

i have thought of having a gun on board many times. Unfortunately a good used fully automatic AK$& runs about 100- or less in most parts of the world. I feel i would be out gunned at a long distance.
eric


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Kimberlite: My wife and I are crusing on our 55'' ketch and are back from Central America and have three AK 47''s plus three 30 round clips each. We also carry three 9mm''s. We purchased a special cabinet with a hidden door from greatstuff.com. BUT... There are so many other ways to defend your self while crusing that their use is a risk to everyone. I think it was a mistake to take them. We have had some problems but have been able to take care of them without the use of guns. First of all at anchor we have night anchor watches. The boat is fully lit and we play music and make ourselves visable.
We have night vision glasses and keep watch. 
We have had one or two try to come close and we were able to see them and use our loud hailer to tell them to go away. In every case they moved away. A couple of times they were just local night fisherman. To be safe on your boat just make yourself look like a 
non easy target. The robbers don''t like hard.
If you make yourself an easy target a target 
you will be. We are now back in San Diego
and are heading out again in the spring to the med and we are not taking the guns with us. Keeping the cabinet where we are storing
our papers and cash. In just about every case in Central America where robberies took
place the boaters were asleep which made them
easy targets. The best bet is to leave your guns at home and sail.


----------



## peterpan2k (Feb 20, 2002)

Right on Dude! Yea though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I fear no evil, as i''m the meanest SOB in the Valley. I keep a high power rifle and two shot guns aboard. I''ve been boarded by the USCG twice and no ramifications as I immediatly declare they''re aboard. The best deffance is a good offense. I sleep behind locked doors. If you ain''t got a key i''ll give you a key hole.


----------



## jinglejum (Dec 10, 2003)

I get a kick out of people thinking that there are pirates out there. There is no such thing as piracy. To rob and kill is the normal human condition, and it''s been that way for all human history. Every human has the basic right to rob and kill any other human being at any time for any reason. If you don''t believe it, just read any history book, read any newspaper or magazine, watch any T.V. news show or listen to any radio news program. Terms like piracy, torrorism, and in fact any other terms that imply that one side is right and the other side is wrong are rediculous. The idea that it is wrong to rob and kill has absolutely no legitimacy in the real human world. Every great nation or culture has had as its basic building block the fact of robbing and killing. That''s exactly how a nation state comes into being, through the consolidation of disparate elements through force of arms. Might makes right is an instrinsic categorical imperative. The United States of America is in Iraq at present on the basic proposition that it is their right and duty to invade, kill, and rob the inhabitants of that country on a self-evident and self-serving basis. Historically, this model has been termed Imperialism. But it doesn''t matter how you dress it up, it simply boils down to robbing and killing. If Iraq didn''t have massive reserves of oil, would the U.S. have taken the trouble to care one way or the other about Saddam Hussein? There is absolutely no difference between what the U.S. is doing in Iraq and what the Nazis did to Poland and Czechoslovakia. And yes, Guantanamo Bay, Cuba is indeed an immoral concentration camp. The U.S.''s last three armed conflicts have been Grenada, Afghanistan, and Iraq. Does that tell you anything? You''ll notice they haven''t given much thought to invading China! It''s not a good idea to try and rob and kill the big boys. And to bring the discussion back to sailing, sailboats and guns, those so-called pirates are simply taking part in the great human robbing and killing spree that has been going on since humans won the war of the jungle and began to envelope the world with their hatred, wanton theft, and killing of any and all things that could be considered good. I''m on the side of the "pirates" because they are at the absolute bottom of the killing and robbing food chain, and I always root for the underdog. The next time you''re on your little fully-found home away from home in a strange, Third World area of the ocean and you see a fast motor launch coming your way with several mean-looking men in the bow, RELAX! They''re only going to rob and kill you! And that''s just exactly as it should be and the way it''s always been. So, go ahead and carry a pistol, a shotgun, a semi-automatic rifle, a bazooka, a hand grenade, a Big Bertha, or whatever. It just doesn''t matter. The point is still the same as its always been: You kill them or they kill you. It''s right and normal. So relax and let''s get back to important stuff like stinky toilets.


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

here is somthing I do take a battery and emty out the acid it fits my walter p38 perfect plus silencer having a silencer gives you a little edge and its semi and having it in the battery cas who would ever think to look their and its easy to get to the bolt you attach the cables to is what keeps it together but of coarse the isnt any way of suplying it with juice and how long dose it take spin off a wing nut and you ownly need to store it their when coming in to port well let me know what you guys think of this idea im from up north and was raised to never be the victom if im going to die it will be on my terms not some **** bags and I know what some might say how do you know they would kill you well if your going to rob someone at gun point then you have already told your self it might have to be so if you pull it you dame well better be ready to use it becouse for the sake of others and my self IWILL!!!! I feel if more people stood up for them selfs and said enuff is enuff and started fighting back then this would not be so bad .ANDfor those who think well we dont whant to make them mad ARE YOU JOKING HAVE YOU LOST YOUR DAME MINDS I dont intend on making them but dead comes to my mind and dont reall care dont rob people or threaten peaple and you will live its that simple or should be.well happy safe holidays


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

You guys are a Hoot! By the way, noreaster, who made your silencer? And while I''m asking, doesn''t the gas blow out the ejection port, pretty much defeating the intent of the silencer? Or do you have a locking slide on yours?

Chas


----------



## ISLANDCHIEF60 (Aug 4, 2003)

MY-O-MY, This thread sure has been intertaining. I see that it`s divided 50/50 as to the sailors that will carry guns and those that wont. There are a couple of you that Talk the Talk but can You Walk the Walk? I sit back and laugh as I read some the B.S. that cluters my screen and wonder where in the hell do you people come from. For example; The clown that says he is for the Pirates and gives us a History Lesson on man`s natural right to kill and rob people. This one really pushed my buttons here. Wake up Dip ****! It`s not a right! It`s all about Greed and being Lazy and Weak minded. What is a Right is people defending there way of life and there families. Man`s Right is to be free and live there lives as they see fit without bringing harm or repressing his fellow man. Oh, and the statement you also made about the U.S. being in Iraq is the same as Hiltlers march is so far from the truth. Here is what I think, You don`t have enough brains to poor piss out of a boot even if the instructions were writen on the heel. The U.S. isn`t repressing those people We are trying to help them establish there own freedoms. Have you been there to even talk this kind of Smack Boy. Have you ever stood next to man that you`ve never met and fight for freedom? Have you ever had a family come up to you crying saying thank you for saving their lives? Have you ever walk up on a mass grave site and throw-up because the autrosity that happened was too much too see? Have you ever had one of you fellow soilders get cut down next to you and is still fighting to the death? What say you to that? Yes say I. Most of all, the fight wasn`t just for them. It was for all of us in the world, Even the Stupid ****s like you. Deserve the right to live Free. The needs of the One out weigh the needs of the many. Because the ones make up the many. One more thing the next time you see a Service Member or Vetrian or the Mother`s and Father`s who have sent their sons and daughters to fight for freedom, there had be a big thank you coming out of that hole you call a mouth. And one more thing for you to chew on. If it wasn`t for these fine Men and Women You may not even be alive to talk all this smack. FREEDOM IS NOT FREE !!!
Chuck


----------



## jinglejum (Dec 10, 2003)

This message to ISLANDCHIEF60:

I sure do hope you get your chance to rob and kill and join the big stupid parade. I hate to think that you''re not going to get to rob and kill somebody before you die. And by the way, of course "FREEDOM ISN''T FREE", because there''s no such thing as freedom. The whole concept of "freedom" was invented by people who didn''t want you to have any freedom. That''s why there''s the Electoral College, the Two-Third''s Majority, and the U.S. Senate. All these are patently undemocratic and therefore, un-freedom. Wise up, Old Salt. You''ve been had. You believe in smoke. 

Jinglejum


----------



## Stede (Jun 13, 2002)

I''ve tried very hard to restrain myself from getting involved in these political debates, but like a moth to a flame, I''m drawn.I don''t understand comments such as "there is no such thing as freedom." Just the fact that we can express our views on this board is freedom, is it not? In the U.S., I believe we do have freedom.With freedom,also comes responsibility. We have freedom of religion, right to bear arms, express political views, etc.,but we must use good judgement on how we excercise these freedoms. I''ve never fought in any war as I believe Island Chief has, but I have two sons that are serving in the military now, and have had brothers,and many relatives that have also served.They all have my admiration,respect,and appreciation.My oldest son recently returned from fighting in Afganistan after being there for a year.I asked him,"what was it like?" He said," I was so sick of it all!" Do you mean the war, I asked? "No," he replied."It was all the,poverty,ignorance,and abuse of the people by their own people.I didn''t mind fighting the "bad guys", they need to be out of power, but the people had suffered so much,that''s what I grew sick of." My son related to me how once while out on patrol, a village family bought their small daughter to their medic, asking him to take a look at her arm. They thought something "might" be wrong with it. My son said the little girls arm had been broken in several places in the past, and had been allowed to set in a multiple twisted condition.He went on to relate how the wells in the villages had open access to them, and livestock would occasionally urinate or defecate in them."We couldn''t make them understand that disease is spred that way.The civilization is equivalent to the stone age." Speaking of the fighting, I could see in his eyes this was something he didn''t want to talk about.All he would say was that the Taliban were ruthless to their people,and had used them by what ever means, to increase their gain."Yes,I agree with Island Chief, Freedom isn''t free,and there are many forms of pirates.I''m proud of my sons for their service to our country, and all the other men and women that are sacrificing to insure our freedom, and to help other oppressed people around the world. If the day ever comes that brave men and women turn their back to evil in the world, then there truly will be no such thing as freedom.


----------



## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

Message to jinglejum

I too, in the past(82nd airborne) have carried a gun indefense of this country as did my father and Islandchief60. I have also have read the post from Steede. Steede could not have said it better.

I do have a quote to share with you jinglejum; from a man who if not in the right place and time in history your Freedom of opinion would not exist.

"Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack." 
- General George Patton Jr 

Happy Sails ~~~~ _/)~~~~


----------



## jbarros (Jul 30, 2002)

as loath as I am to make anyone else page through these pages, I feel drawn to reply. 

SO, who is cynical about what?

I see some people cynical about gun ownership, but I see people even more vehlmently cynical about anyone who would chose to not carry a gun. 

I belive your point is that those without guns may be without the will to defend themselves and theirs, which I disagree with, but that too has been beet to death. 

I wonder what someone could have without a gun, that a person with a gun may lack. 

-- James


----------



## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

James, you missed it!

My point has nothing to do with guns as that is personal freedom that each person has to anwser for themselves and what ever the anwser, it will be right for them.

The point has to due with the person''s cynical comments about freedom. 

James, freedom does allow you not to keep a gun as much as the next person to keeep one and thats OK with me. But, when someone eludes to freedom not being real, thats when i have to speak out.

Happy sails to you


----------



## ISLANDCHIEF60 (Aug 4, 2003)

Guns or No Guns everyone has or can and will defend their way of life. I beleive jinglejum can`t really be serious about his veiws. However If this is the way you really think, the best of luck to you in your path of life. Just remember while plundering scalley wag heart out, your career will be short term.
OLD SALT


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Wow...you can really blow off much of an afternoon at work reading these posts.

While a surprising number of posters doubt we have freedom, what freedom is, or even that value of it, there can be no doubt that we have the freedom to disagree.

I salute those of you -- and those in your families -- who have fought to keep the U.S. free.

Thanks...Michael


----------



## ISLANDCHIEF60 (Aug 4, 2003)

Thank you Michael. And thank you for all those who support us. And for those who don`t. Well,thank you anyways. At least you know we out there.


----------



## jbarros (Jul 30, 2002)

Sorry about that bubb2. I did completley misread your post. 

I probiby shouldnt do this here, as it''s about time to let this poor tired thread die, but I feel compelled, so....

No one but themselves can give a person freedom, we can only stop it from being taken away. I apreciate and salute those brave men and women in the armed forces that stop our freedoms from being taken away by enemies of the state. I apreciate Teachers who stop our freedom from being removed by our own ignorance. 

The American Heritage Dictionary defines Freedom as such:

The condition of being free of restraints. 
Liberty of the person from slavery, detention, or oppression. 

Political independence. 

Exemption from the arbitrary exercise of authority in the performance of a specific action; civil liberty: freedom of assembly. 

Exemption from an unpleasant or onerous condition: freedom from want. 

The capacity to exercise choice; free will: We have the freedom to do as we please all afternoon. 

Ease or facility of movement: loose sports clothing, giving the wearer freedom. 

Frankness or boldness; lack of modesty or reserve: the new freedom in movies and novels. 


I think to alot of us, sailing is about freedom. About being loosed from the bonds of life ashore, with a place to walk, a place to drive, a set speed and direction your allowed to move in.

Right now, I''m in the process of earning my freedom. I''ve gotten into the American Nightmare (Dream?) of a bit of debt, a place to live, a bit more debt, nice vehicles, Debt, good food, debt, movies and toys, debt etc. 

So now I am enslaved by my own consumerisim to spend about 60 hours a week tied to a paycheck. But I''m working on being free of it. 

At the same time I''m drilling with my boat and working on it to be freed from my own inability and from fear. 

You see, every definition above was a negator. Freedom is not being constrained by X to do Y. So I think it''s a process of freeing ones self to the best of our ability. we have to let go of that which holds us in place. And sometimes its a human enemy. And I apreciate those who would help stop that threat. But for alot of us, the only thing stealing our freedom is us. And we need to let go, and get on with living like we should. 

I suppose this doesnt relate much to the topic at hand, except that all of us are on here quarreling about what we will or wont do, instead of doing it. 

I''ve got 2 brownie points for whoever can give me the source of this one:

Do what though Wilt shall be the whole of the Law. 

-- James


----------



## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

Regards James

Thank you for your most resent post. 

I am most gradified that my post has caused you to examine your feeling about Freedom. James with all due respect, Freedom and Liberty go much deeper than a dictionary definition.

It has been almost 30 years ago that I was part of US forces who were there when a people and country lost their freedom. I saw mothers handing their children to US service men saying "take to America." 

At that time the American public did not see their freedom being directly affected, so the call went out to bring the service men home. 

Fast forwarding 30 years, I live just north of New York City on the Hudson river. On a clear day I used to be able to sit in the cockpit of my boat at the marina and see the Twin Towers. I have sailed past Lady Liberty more times than I can count. Each time I sail past her I give her my thanks. 

Times have changed and the public sees that there are people in the world who would rather try to take away freedoms of others than try to gain freedoms of their own.

Each time a freedom is lost by my neighbor it is freedom lost of mine. We as American''s think we can pick the freedoms that are important to us and restrict the freedoms of our neighbor. It doesn''t work that way. Freedom is a almost an all or nothing sort of thing.

I do understand your comment about we have beaten this horse to death, but let us not stand silent about freedom. 

Peace on earth and good will to men, even sailors!


----------



## mcain (Jun 13, 2003)

To get more practical for a moment, and suspending the moral issues of firearms, I would like to ask a specific question. Does anyone have current information about bringing in firearms (i.e. a shotgun) into Puerto Rico? Some authors, like Van Sant, have said the PR officians tend to confiscate them--not just hold them until you leave. Anyone been there recently and declared a long gun?


----------



## obiec (Sep 26, 2001)

Freedom What a beautiful word. The truth is no one truly has freedom, It is just that some have more freedoms than others, and it comes down to what our acceptable level is. It really should be our disition if we are or are not armed on our boats. But there are Governments and countries that think they know what is best for us so they attempt to take away those freedoms, and some of use give them up. It makes you a criminal if you do not give them up. And they will threaten other freedoms of yours if you wont comply. I have had my complete fill of fools whom wont to think for me. They are every were and we are all part of that ourselves to one extent or another. My dad always told me it is a good thing that people grow older and die, he feels that all the changes just get harder and harder to take. I do understand what he means. Our own government makes more and more laws and rules and every one without exception is another freedom gone. Another choice that some one is going to make for you. And they do have there big stick, and you had better obey or whack, there goes yet another freedom. I do not what to seam as thou I promote lawless ness, I don’t. But we are going so damd far over the edge that we will never get back. I mean some FBI fool will probably read this and it will be in my file, who knows. 

If you give up your freedoms for security, You will have neither!!

Obie


----------



## eds928gt (Sep 28, 2001)

If having a firearm aboard is a right you''re not willing to give up, you have the freedom to not go to countries that don''t allow them. If you want to go to one or more of those countries, then you''ll have to give up that right or run the risk of their penalty for breaking their law.

The law makers in those countries think they know what''s best for their citizens. Moreoever, in many of those countries, a majority of the citizens agree with their country''s weapons policy. It''s their democracy and not yours. It the rules in their country, which you are bound to obey when you enter it. If you don''t like that fact, stay home!

~ Happy sails to you ~ _/) ~


----------



## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

Well said, and right on the mark !


----------



## obiec (Sep 26, 2001)

You dont get it, its not about staying home. If you did this thay would take away your home becase you didnt have a job to pay your taxes. The problem is not that you canot go the Mexico becase you have a gun. it is that the laws and rules just increas and increas. Every were, our own country you have to were a seat belt you have to were a helet, on and on. And peaple presuably like yoursel it sounds uses a simple excuse and say if you dont like it stay home or dont drive or dont ride. And with a sit down and take it atitude you will just loose more and more freadoms. Hell you can get a duie For drinking a beer and driving your lawn mower across your drive way. Or having 2 glass of wine while you are sailing. By the way I always were my seat belt and alway have and I always were my helit, long before it was the law, becase it made cents to me. And I dont drink.


----------



## eds928gt (Sep 28, 2001)

First, I think you need to use a spell checker, as well as a grammar checker. I had a heck of a time trying to understand what you wrote. I''m not sure that I do, even after having read it thrice. :^(

Some of the freedoms you seem to think we should have (like being drunk while driving or while sailing) could have the result of harming others. Our society has made some rules (laws) to help protect others from our irresponsible actions. Helmet and seatbelt laws probably help reduce "avoidable health care expenses" that often gets paid by the residents of the community where the care would be given. In other words, why should I have to pay to fix you up because you decided to ride a motorcycle without a helmet?

The list goes on and on, but the bottom line is you don''t have the right to do whatever you please if it can hurt someone else!

~ Happy sails to you ~ _/) ~


----------



## jbarros (Jul 30, 2002)

I''m all for standing up for my rights in my own country, and fighting to get back what was taken away in the name of saving us from ourselves. When I go over to someone elses house/contry etc, I either play by their rules or go home. 

BTW, this is not an endorsement of or a request for the legalization of drunk driving/boating or other irresponsible actions.

-- James


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

For those who have written there really is no such thing as freedom, remember if everyone was free to do what they pleased, one man would be free to shoot the man standing next to him on a whim. But then the other man has only the freedom to die. Is this total freedom? For everyone? Freedom must be a shared endeavor.

Governments, at their best, enact laws to provide the grease for society to reduce the friction between us so that we can coexist and get along better. Maybe no country is doing it perfectly, but some do it better than others.

What bothers me more than the erosion of freedoms in this society is the lack of respect people show for the freedoms they have.

Chas


----------



## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

I wish more people would get energized about the real erosion of freedoms in this country like the ever-shrinking right to privacy or free speech. If we could get every citizen as concerned about these things as are the morons who think that having to register their 9mm semi-auto assault pistol represents a loss of freedom, then we wouldn''t be burdened with a Patriot Act, homeland security or the plethora of other conservative agenda items that make this country seem more facist every day.


----------



## eds928gt (Sep 28, 2001)

I wonder what people think "privacy" means. Clearly, it''s an oxymoron to think you can have privacy while you''re in public. If you are in public where people and police officers can see you, then what''s the big deal if a survailance camera sees you?

The right to bear arms (by a well regulated militia in the USA [look it up]) is covered in our Constitution. However, laws have been passed to protect society from those proven to be a danger to it or incapable of being responsible gun users. Those regulations seem reasonable to reasonable people, including Supreme Court Justices.

Regarding "Freedom of Speech - Remeber you cna say whatever you want so long as it doesn''t lead to a potentially harmful situation. "Yelling fire in a theatre when there isn''t one" is usually cited as a case where what you say could cause a panic, and therefore you don''t have a right to say it. You also don''t have the right to verbally assault, libel or slander anyone. Thus, it is clear that from the very start "Freedom of Speech" has had limitations.

Lastly, I happen to agree with those who think the Patriot Act has in some ways erroded the liberties protected in the Constitution. I think the courts will overturn the portions of that Act dealing with "Due Process". Clearly, the standard should remain "Innocent till proven guilty". Presently, a person (even a citizen) can be detained indefinitely if the Government thinks he/she is a "terrorist". That sounds very much like a modern version of "McCarthyism".

Getting back to the original post - protect yourself by whatever means necessary, but be ready to suffer the consequences of your decision.

~ Happy sails to you ~ _/) ~


----------



## jbarros (Jul 30, 2002)

I find it funny that in the same breath one would talk about "real" rights like privacy and then about how someone needs to quit worrying if he''s asked to register his means of defence with the government. Think about it for a second. 

As for the right to keep and bear arms, the exact wording is thus:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. 

Look at this in context. The PEOPLE of the English colony of America got together and formed a well regulated milita to stand agianst an opressive government and hence secure a free state. This is not a group who wanted to hand over all their power to the government. This is a people who wanted to ensure that the government was kept in check. Then agian, now that we have the Supreme court destroying the union of states (since 53) and making everything the fed, we need to accept that everything is going to change. Slowly, in the name of security for all, we''re losing all our rights. I''m going sailing, before I need governmental permission to do so. 

-- James


----------



## eds928gt (Sep 28, 2001)

I said nothing about gun registration. However, I don''t think it unwise to require folks to allow the Government to do a background check to ensure they are not felons, or mentally incapable of handling a gun. We all know, there are enough unstable folks with guns already. We don''t need to allow every lunatic the "Right to bear arms". Felons may still be able to get guns (illegally), but the government shouldn''t make it easy to do so.

Also, I don''t agree that the Supreme Court has tried to make everything "Fed". On the contrary, many rulings supporting states rights have been upheld since 1953. The ruling that have gone against states have involved issues that could have one state having laws that violate laws of another state. Clearly, the Feds have a duty to ensure that all states maintain consistent statutes.

As it stands now, you cannot just build or buy a boat and go sailing anytime you want. The boat must be registered with the state in which it is berthed. That registration is, in effect, a permission-slip allowing the owner to operate the boat in the state''s waters. The Feds (USCG) will accept that permission to extend into Federal waters, but have the right to revoke it if they feel they have justification to do so.

These rules that impinge on your freedom were established by the majority in the society in which we live. We have legal recourse to try to change rules we don''t like, but in the end, the Courts make the decision, not us. If you don''t like the system, you are free to leave and find one you like better or establish your own country where you can make the laws. Good luck!

~ Happy sails to you ~ _/) ~


----------



## jbarros (Jul 30, 2002)

Sorry, I should have been more clear. The part about gun registration was directed at Fstbttms. 

As for the states rights, in education and (your gonna hate this, I know I did) the first ammendment, they made the decisions fed. here''s some bg info if you''d like. 

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/amendment01/01.html#3

While moraly I agree with the protection, I find it scary when the supreme court decides to interpret laws in a way that is expressly DENIED in the writing. When the Supreme Court empowers itself that way, the checks and ballances go away and we''re left at the mercy of a 9 man olgarcy. neep! 

That being said, by finding fault (and voting and helping to campaign) in a manner that helps support positive change, I think I''m doing nothing less than my patriotic duty. I dont think that a disagreement with the way things are going is half as unamerican and destructive to our way of life as blind conformity (or blind rebelion) 

That ALSO being said, I do have every plan of taking some more travels, starting in March as a matter of fact to see how things are run in the rest of the world. 

So now sir, you and I may both have our respective cakes, and eat them too. 

BTW, Merry Christmas, Happy Hanuka, Joyfull Kwanzaa, and have a downright groovy Ramadan

-- James


----------



## obiec (Sep 26, 2001)

First off I do not need to use a spell checker. Mabe you need me to or would like me to, But I do not need to. 

Now it is ofaly easy to just through stuff out there about druck driving or sailing drunk, I feel it was quite clear that I was not talking about eather. But if twisting some one elses words is the only way you can find fule for your week argument I guess you must do so. And I do understand that a helmet law might help so that the population as a whole dosent have to ber, the undo expenses of a person on life suport. But it should not be sociatys right to take that fredom away from outhers. Lets just cary it a littal further. Children are fixed at child berth, Once thay prove to the state that thay would make good parent, the state will revers it. How dose that sound. It is just a littal more extream than what you are asking for. But it is on the same guide lines. Obviously you could go on and on about this. The simple truth is that more and more of our rights ar disapering, It has already gon to far. And it is not getting any better.


----------



## eds928gt (Sep 28, 2001)

You''re right, you don''t need to use a spell checker, but you''d be wise to do so. The poor spelling is only part of the problem. Mostly, it''s hard to understand what you''re trying to say due to so many words being mistyped, misused, missing or incomplete.

If you look at your message, you were the one who said it should be alright to drive or sail while drinking alcohol. I wonder if you''d still say that if a drunk driver or sailor crashed his car or boat into yours. :^(

Bottom line - we all have the freedom to do whatever we want whenever we want so long as it doesn''t infringe on anyone else''s rights and liberties. For example - your right to throw a punch at me ends before it makes contact. (Actually, you don''t have a right to threaten me.) You can have the right to drive without a seatbelt if you can GAURANTEE if involved in an accident and need medical care, you won''t cost society a red-cent.

In case you didn''t get the gist - "Freedom" comes with a price, responsibilities and many limitations. It always has in "civilized societies". If you think it shouldn''t then start your own society where you can set the rules - if any. ;^)

~ Happy sails to you ~ _/) ~


----------



## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

As I read this thread, an old saying comes to mind....never have a battle of wits with an unarmed person.

So far, you have given two concise and accurate observations. It seems obvious that any further attempt to clarify the subject is not only futile, but also more fuel for a fire that should have died out long ago. When someone confuses freedom with anarchy, there is no explaining either to them.

Fair winds,

John


----------



## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

>First off I do not need to use a spell checker. Mabe you need me to or would like me to, But I do not need to.<

Think again. Not only does your terrible spelling make it difficult for others to read your posts but it reflects on your intelligence (fairly or not) and therefore the validity of your arguement. I''m not saying you''re stupid, but with language skills as poor as yours and your unwillingness to even make an attempt at literacy, it''s easy to dismiss your arguements as those of an uneducated backwoods bumpkin. Do us all a favor and spell-check your posts.

BTW- Merry Christmas, everyone. ;-)


----------



## jbarros (Jul 30, 2002)

*KICK* THUD
*KICK* THUD 


"GET UP!"
"Come on... PLEASE... Get up"

"You hear a heartbeet?"

"Nope. Man, it''s not even warm." 

"Well, I guess it''s official..."

"Yep, poor horse has been dead for days."

poor horsey.  

-- James


----------



## obiec (Sep 26, 2001)

Ok you know I wrote something about how I felt about freedoms, And you have decided to bash me directly, Thank you I hope you feel bigger now. I do feel there are many laws that have gone to far. I also feel there are a lot of people out there that will say that, that is just the way it is. Well I do not feel that way, I think we need real change. If I have come across as some back woods fool to you, you might need to evaluate your thinking. Yes I have problems with spelling and such. I have a fairly common problem of dyslexia. Are far as my intelligence, I was denied a college education. But you know what I have found in life, There are a lot of educated idiots out there. Now I am not trying to say I am dilling with one of them right now, but I do have my suspicions. I went into private business, I am 37 years old and I live in a home I built last year, and it is played for. Over 2,000 SQ feet. I sail a 38 foot Ingrid that is very nice and it is paid for. I have a mountain cabin that I built 3 years ago on 3 acres on a lake and yes, it is paid for. I do not owe the bank a dime. Ow yea I also have three rental hoses, and they are paid for now. I am planning on leaving on an extended cruise next year. I will fund this with my rental homes and I will lease out my house and cabin. When I was first getting started my mother in law offered to give me enough money to build my first house. I termed her down, I wonted to do it my way. That was a grate diction. You know the nice thing about private business, all the Idiots educated or not get weeded out. So take your PHD and Enjoy punching the clock on Monday. 
Do even bother I am done reading your postings.


----------



## eds928gt (Sep 28, 2001)

Obiec:

I don''t know if you were directing your remarks at me, but I didn''t think you a fool. I thought your spelling and grammar were making it dificult to understand what it was you were trying to say - nothing more.

I''m glad to read you''ve made a success for yourself. As it turns out, I do have a college degree and a Masters, but I don''t have a PhD, at least not yet, and unless I decide to teach college, I probably won''t get it.

Now with respect to freedoms lost - please list one or more. Remember, you can only list the ones mentioned in the Constitution. Any other freedom you think you have not mentioned in the Constitution is illusionary at best. For example: The right to privacy isn''t mentioned in the Constitution, so thus, there really is no "right to privacy".

Getting back to the original topic - The right to bear arms is in the Constitution. However, States and the Feds can regulate who can get and have them. I doubt any sane person would want felons or the metally retarded to be able to legally buy guns.

Once you leave the States, the laws of the country you''re in determine whether you can legally keep a gun while in their territorial waters. I''m not sure, but maybe there''s a country which allows its citizens to keep automatic weapons. Clearly, they would be in violation of US Laws and the Coast Guard would have every legal right to impond such a weapon if it were brought into US waters.

These are just some examples. I would be interested in reading the list of freedoms you think we have lost.

~ Happy sails to you ~ _/) ~


----------



## eds928gt (Sep 28, 2001)

Obiec:

I don''t know if you were directing your remarks at me, but I didn''t think you a fool. I thought your spelling and grammar were making it difficult to understand what it was you were trying to say - nothing more.

I''m glad to read you''ve made a success for yourself. As it turns out, I do have a college degree and a Masters, but I don''t have a PhD, at least not yet, and unless I decide to teach college, I probably won''t get it.

Now with respect to freedoms lost - please list one or more. Remember, you can only list the ones mentioned in the Constitution. Any other freedom you think you have not mentioned in the Constitution is illusionary at best. For example: The right to privacy isn''t mentioned in the Constitution, so thus, there really is no "right to privacy".

Getting back to the original topic - The right to bear arms is in the Constitution. However, States and the Feds can regulate who can get and have them. I doubt any sane person would want felons or the metally retarded to be able to legally buy guns.

Once you leave the States, the laws of the country you''re in determine whether you can legally keep a gun while in their territorial waters. I''m not sure, but maybe there''s a country which allows its citizens to keep automatic weapons. Clearly, they would be in violation of US Laws and the Coast Guard would have every legal right to impound such a weapon if it were brought into US waters.

These are just some examples. I would be interested in reading the list of freedoms you think we have lost.

~ Happy sails to you ~ _/) ~


----------



## sneuman (Jan 28, 2003)

Look at this thread: 115+ entries and nothing to do about sailing! At the risk of getting flamed, who the hell cares?? Statistically - even in supposedly crime-ridden America - you''re much more likely to get shot with your own weapon than to successfully stop an intruder; I would think the stats would be even more sobering for a boat. Pirates? How many of you are sailing the Malacca Straits or the southern Philippines? Enough said. If worst comes to worst, zap ''em with your flare gun and leave the heavy artillery at home - unloaded, locked in a case so your kids don''t shoot themselves or the neighbor''s dog. Sheesh!


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Gee, this thread was so entertaining I thought I''d pull a fast one and revive it.

To keep and bear arms onboard your sailing vessel or to not have them at all? There are those that would deny us the priviledge of keeping weapons on board if the decision were left up to them, and unfortunately it often is. It is also unfortunate that these same people are the ones from whom we would need the weapons in order to defend ourselves. I grew up in a home where guns were always present and learned to respect them. Perhaps people should be required to leave their sailboats at home locked up so that their children would not fall overboard and drown or hit their little heads on the boom in an accidental gybe. If you assume the child will be irresponsible around guns then I must assume you were irresponsible in the upbringing of your child. Perhaps you are the one who should be locked up so that you don''t go off and hurt someones freedom!

I have lived all over the world and am very happy to be here in the USA now. I am very thankful for the US military for protecting the rights I do have. In most places in the USA we do not have to carry firearms on a daily basis because of our police and military. In most the rest of the world the police and military are the reason you do have to carry! Either their lack of presence to deter or outright criminality on their own part requires that you be able to use a gun and be willing to use it, or forfeit many of your rights, including the one to life.

Sailor/Political Scientist/American by choice


----------



## eds928gt (Sep 28, 2001)

I have not been all over the world, but in the countries I''ve been, the Police were visible and helpful. Also, the crime rates in those countries were/are much much lower than here in the USA.

In one particular country, folks left their doors and windows unlocked. Also, one could get on the metro without having to go through a turnstile. There, the honor system works!

The citizens are allowed to own hunting rifles and shotguns, but they must be kept at the local police station to be checked out as needed. The majority there think this makes sense. If you travel there by boat, you''ll be required to turn in your firearms. They will be returned when you exit the country. That sounds reasonable to me.

~ Happy sails to you ~ _/) ~


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

great, then you can move there and be happy. While you are moving there you can remind my childhood friends from Rhodesia why it is such a good idea to rely upon the authorities for your own safety. You can tell the jews why they should trust the nazi regime in Germany. The simple fact is that people like you should not be telling people what they can or can''t do on their own boat! If you decide not arm yourself that''s wonderful, that''s your perogative! I am sure thiefs and pirates appreciate your pacificity also. The propblem is jerks who for the sake of "harmony" or "peace" give up other peoples guns and other peoples rights in order to make themselves feel better. It doesn''t work on the large scale (Chamberlain and the Nazi''s) and it didn''t work with the bullies on the schoolyard so why the hell do you think that somewhere in the middle everybody out there can be trusted and for those that can''t, it just a small statistic not to worry about. Fine, you go be that statistic! My friends in Rhodesia were statistics also simply because they had no means to defend themselves. We need more cowboys willing to face down the bad guys than wimps willing to give up all for the sake of appeasement. My life experience has taught me not to trust in the good intentions and motives of others. Any country that does not allow one the means to defend themselves is not a safe country to live in. Crime may be lower in these countries but that is often because the "official" reports leave out the details. I have been to many of these countries you probably refer to and have to disagree with your finding. In these countries you can ask the officials about the ethnic cleansing and they will say it never happened. You can ask about the massacre last week and the offial line is that it is all oposition propaganda. The UN peacekeepers are here to protect the people ( all the while taking the little girls for use as sex slaves while stationed in country).

To hell with you, I am keeping my gun!


----------



## eds928gt (Sep 28, 2001)

Were you responding to me? If so, please show me where I said you should give up your right to bear arms?

There are ways to defend oneself without the need of firearms. Ghandi and his followers didn''t fire a single shot, yet he still managed to force the British to get out of India.

Upon retirement, I will likely live part of the year in that country I described in my previous post. The people there are very friendly, the weather is very nice, the sea is very clean, and their quality of life is in amny ways better than ours. If giving up my right to bear arms is one of the few drawbacks, I can live with it. Perhaps you cannot. To each his own.

BTW, I would never tell anyone I disagree with to "go to he!!" That''s just poor manners, and shows poor upbringing. As you should know, one of the most important freedoms we have here in the USA is the right to freedom of speech. That includes allowing someone to say what they think, even if you don''t agree with it.

~ Happy sails to you ~ _/) ~


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Not trying to be rude but that "to hell with you I am keeping my guns" seems not to be a diatribe aimed at 928frenzy as a "go to hell". Think of it more as a "Well, I''ve seen the world and the mistakes of others and if you want to go and make those same mistakes I am not going with you" type of to hell. To misquote shows also poor manners and upbringing but luckily you have the freedom here to do just that. 
The question is still valid with points of view on both sides that sound reasonable. One thing to remember, those who wish to keep firearms onboard their vessel will never force those who who do not wish to keep firearms onboard to do so. Can the same be said of the other side? History clearly shows this not to be the case!


Cowboys beat UCLA in the Las Vegas Bowl! 
GO WYOMING!


----------



## eds928gt (Sep 28, 2001)

Unfortunately, some jurisdictions have passed laws that REQUIRE every household to have at least one firearm. I don''t know if these laws will be upheld Constitutionally, but for the time-being they''re on the books.

With regard to what other countries allow or don''t allow, "when in Rome do as the Romans." As an international traveler your US Passport states that you must abide by the laws of the country you''re in, regardless of your opinion of them. If you don''t want to relinquish your right to keep a firearm onboard, don''t visit countries that require you to hand them over upon arrival. It''s really that simple.

Don''t expect folks from other countries to see it your way, especially when the crime rate in their respective country is a tiny fraction of the US crime rate. Clearly, most of them think gun-control in more beneficial to their overall society, than allowing citizens to keep them at home or onboard.

Now, do not take what I''ve written here to mean you should give up your firearms. You do what you think is best for you, and I''ll do what I think is best for me.

Peace.


----------



## jairo55 (Apr 17, 2012)

It does not make sense; different laws in US and overseas. Best carry a nice small sharp knife and learn how to use it. Retired LEO, I always carry a small knife overseas.


----------



## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

WE WON!
The Canadian long gun registry has been scrapped, and the data base for all Canada, except for Quebec, is in the process of being deleted, Quebec to soon follow. After squandering $2 billion, this has proven what a complete waste of time , money and effort the concept of registering all the guns in a huge , mostly rural country is, and can be pointed to as an example to other such proposals in other countries. There is no way they can promise to resurrect it with any real credibility to claims it a can actually work. It will simply, inevitably, lead to the same result.


----------



## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

I was watching a bit of a show called American Diggers. It's about a group of archeologist types hunting up stuff like civil war relics buried where armies were known to have camped and so forth.

They were hunting in Virginia in a semi rural area and were knocking on doors asking if the homeowners were interested in letting them scout their property in return for a share of any profits. The land would be returned to its original state when they were through. None of the homeowners were what you would call friendly - remember there was a whole crew along for this, not just some guy knocking on the door.

One guy answered the door with a double barreled shotgun - pointing it, another was working professionally on a car with a pistol in a holster on his hip. 

This was everyday routine for these people.

What a way to live.


----------



## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

SloopJonB said:


> I was watching a bit of a show called American Diggers. It's about a group of archeologist types hunting up stuff like civil war relics buried where armies were known to have camped and so forth.
> 
> They were hunting in Virginia in a semi rural area and were knocking on doors asking if the homeowners were interested in letting them scout their property in return for a share of any profits. The land would be returned to its original state when they were through. None of the homeowners were what you would call friendly - remember there was a whole crew along for this, not just some guy knocking on the door.
> 
> ...


Yeah, That's exactly how it is here in VA. Don't come here. (Or NC or SC or GA, or anywhere else in rural USA.) 

Did it ever occur to you that these incidents just might be staged to make your TV show about people digging in the dirt a tad more interesting?


----------



## PenobscotBaySailor (Mar 15, 2010)

Carrying a firearm aboard is a very personal choice, and one that must be made individually. I would never condem someone for choosing not to. The many reasons stated make that an appropriate decision for them. I do choose to arm my self. But, I have the training, the experience and the mindset to make that an appropriate decision for me and my family. The most dangerous weapon aboard is the one you aren't prepared to use. With appropriate training and research into the rules and regulations of your area of operation addressed, a firearm is just another tool, no more or less than any other tool in your inventory.
Just my two cents.


----------



## JoeDiver (Feb 2, 2011)

928frenzy said:


> With regard to what other countries allow or don''t allow, "when in Rome do as the Romans." As an international traveler your US Passport states that you must abide by the laws of the country you''re in, regardless of your opinion of them.


I lived in Germany for 5 years....I can't tell you how many times I heard a US citizen make the comment "I'm an American, I have rights, you can't do that to me."

LOL...seriously, it happens. There are people that just don't seem to realize that once you leave our borders you must abide by the laws of the place you're going to.

Occasionally, it was a source of embarrassment to me.


----------

