# Marine electrician/electrical certification?



## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

This question is mainly directed at Maine Sail, but anyone with a real clue please feel free to answer:

What is the educational path to achieve a certification as a marine electrician? Expected costs and length of time to achieve? Employment potential? (Especially in this crappy economy)

Perhaps "marine electrician" is too generic of a term. Is there a difference between the electrician who wires a dock for power vs. an electrician who wires a boat for AC and DC power? Is there a difference in the certification process?

I already have an electricity and electronics background and I was considering a career shift to the marine industry, away from government contracting.

Thanks for the assist.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Bubble,

One of my good friends is one of the preminant marine elctricians in the Annapolis area, He has mentored others getting into the profession and has a great reputation. He teaches the elctrical courses given for Annapolis Sailing School also

Bob Campbell
337 South Drive
Severna Park, MD 21146
(410) 647-5001
[email protected]


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

The most widely recognized certification in the marine industry is through ABYC you can get all the info you need on their site.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Thanks very much.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I'm not sure about the certification, but I find there is a huge difference between a marine electrician that can bring power to an outlet or wire a bilge pump and those that can troubleshoot an autopilot or chartplotter.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Minnewaska said:


> I'm not sure about the certification, but I find there is a huge difference between a marine electrician that can bring power to an outlet or wire a bilge pump and those that can troubleshoot an autopilot or chartplotter.


Quite a difference between a marine electrician and an electronics tech. Electronics techs are certified by individual manufacturers.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

boatpoker said:


> Quite a difference between a marine electrician and an electronics tech. Electronics techs are certified by individual manufacturers.


The electrician would be similarly skilled to a carpenter in my book. The electronics techs seem to know magic.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Bubblehead, are you looking to find a corporate job? Or self-employed working retail with the boaters and the competition?

FWIW West Marine and others often advertise for installers and techs, you might ask them what they are looking for (including radio licenses) if that's the way you want to go.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

hellosailor said:


> Bubblehead, are you looking to find a corporate job? Or self-employed working retail with the boaters and the competition?
> 
> FWIW West Marine and others often advertise for installers and techs, you might ask them what they are looking for (including radio licenses) if that's the way you want to go.


Frankly, I don't have the ambition or discipline to operate my own business. I wasn't really looking for "corporate" though, at least not in the "West Marine" sense. I was wondering if I could get hired on at a large marina or yard as their electrical guru, and whether or not it could be a profitable and rewarding way to earn a living.

My background is electricity, electronics and RF communications for the US Navy, then telecommunications (cabled/hardwired/ethernet and fiber optic) and computer networking for my current employer for the last 9 years.

I understand DC, and AC 110v and 220v systems, how to wire them, some of the guiding US electric codes (what I don't know, I confirm by research before taking action).

I also understand electronics and I could certainly troubleshoot and repair marine electronics if I had the schematics, manuals and tools to fix a specific piece of equipment. I've repaired plenty of radios and radar during my time in the Navy.

Unfortunately, I'm a "jack of all trades" with many skills, but none of them in-depth enough, and no real pedigree to back any of it up.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Getting connected to a marina is all about making money for the marina. If you make money too, that's optional.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

BubbleheadMd said:


> Frankly, I don't have the ambition or discipline to operate my own business. I wasn't really looking for "corporate" though, at least not in the "West Marine" sense. I was wondering if I could get hired on at a large marina or yard as their electrical guru, and whether or not it could be a profitable and rewarding way to earn a living.
> 
> My background is electricity, electronics and RF communications for the US Navy, then telecommunications (cabled/hardwired/ethernet and fiber optic) and computer networking for my current employer for the last 9 years.
> 
> ...


From the description of your background, the fact that you want to take an orderly path to certification and the quality of your questions .... sounds like you are selling yourself short.
Sounds like a very business like (self employed) approach.

Take the ABYC courses, You'll learn a thing or two and maybe more importantly it will provide great networking potential


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Poker:

I've found it's always safer to be conservative. BTW, I love your quote. I always crack up when I read it.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

BubbleheadMd said:


> Frankly, I don't have the ambition or discipline to operate my own business. I wasn't really looking for "corporate" though, at least not in the "West Marine" sense. I was wondering if I could get hired on at a large marina or yard as their electrical guru, and whether or not it could be a profitable and rewarding way to earn a living.
> 
> My background is electricity, electronics and RF communications for the US Navy, then telecommunications (cabled/hardwired/ethernet and fiber optic) and computer networking for my current employer for the last 9 years.
> 
> ...


There are usually two sides to this. Electronics installers and electrical systems specialists. Many do both.

The electronics guys install electronics, integrate them and set them up. Many yards sub this out because there is NO MONEY to be made doing this type of work. You make about 2-4% on the equipment, if you're lucky, and your labor still needs to be competitive.

One "call back", most often due to a RTFM event, and you lose money. It is ALWAYS best to get the customer to pay for an hour or two of "training" on the new system to avoid RTFM call backs. These jobs can be very tedious and time consuming especially on large yachts or sailboats. The electronics today are also not as reliable as they once were. When they do fail, and need warranty work, you usually make nothing but still have to service the customer. Just ask me about TackTick.... 

Electrical systems guys do all the on-board system wiring, 12V, 24V, 48V, 120V and 240V, plus alternators, pumps, electric winches, windlass, solar, wind, battery systems, hydro generators, AC & DC panels, battery monitors, battery chargers, inverter/chargers, lighting and system design, LPG system wiring, bilge pumps, bonding, corrosion etc. etc...

The electronics guys will go to training at the manufacturer and often get NEMA certified, though this is arguably less "required" than ABYC if you want to get a job at a yard.. The electrical systems guys will have at least an ABYC electrical certification. Most yards now require it due to "insurance" and the current lawsuit happy society we live in.. Many have both certifications and do the manufacturer level training as well.

Marine electrical/electronics techs stop at the boats AC inlet. Only shore side electricians are legally allowed to touch the dock pedestal and dock wiring. Conversely most all shore side electricians stop at the dock pedestal.

There is a lot of practical knowledge to learn other than simply hooking the stuff together and marine requirements are often very different from shore side codes.. ABYC is the certification most yards are looking for but don't expect to get paid much compared to what they bill you out at..

The ABYC suggests about 5 years of "practical knowledge" in the field before taking the exam or a suitable course at a place like the Landing School or other marine training institution..

I work as an "independent" contractor and most of the yards I work in want to see both insurance and an ABYC certification. They could care less about NEMA but do often ask about ABYC. All yards mandate insurance if you are an independent contractor.

Being in Maine I am lucky to see lots of quality work by some excellent technicians. Most of our yards demand high quality work and we are lucky enough to have both Westlawn and the Landing School in our back yard to provide top notch training and job candidates. When I travel outside of Maine, or boats come here from elsewhere, the quality of the work can range from outright dangerous to workable and even sometimes excellent. There are good yards and bad yards in every state. If you work at a yard try to get in with the BEST yard you can otherwise bad habits will result..

While you may find a yard that does not require ABYC you probably don't want to be associated with that level of workmanship over the long haul. At a minimum I'd say you will need an ABYC certification especially if you don't have a resume to show commensurate experience in the field...


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Thanks for all the good info, Maine.

It sounds like the more profitable, and more in-demand discipline is the actual electrical vs. electronic installation and maintenance (or have both).

I have some quality of life questions for you:

1. As an "independent" contractor, how do you rate your quality of life? Do you ever get time off? Ever manage to take a real vacation? Working yourself into an early grave?

2. Does your pay keep up with living expenses like mortgage, car payment, and utilities plus money to save for a rainy day?

3. As an independent, what kind of overhead do you have? A work truck? Do you own a shop (brick-and-mortar building?)

4. I suspect you're older than me. How do you feel about contorting and crawling through the cramped confines of vessels in order to run power wire, etc? Are you getting tired of it?

5. How is your employability? Are you scrounging for jobs, or is work steady? What happened when the economy crapped out?

Thanks.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

bbh-
"Unfortunately, I'm a "jack of all trades" " Yes, what was once called a Rennaissance Man, these days sadly not often sought outside of Rennaissance Faires.
Sounds like folks have some excellent points. Employers of all sorts these days, just don't want to share the wealth even with those who make it for them. And if you go independent, you've got to file taxes (including sales if you've got that) and other paperwork of varying sorts. Maintain insurance, deal with business use of the car and whatever, paperwork is a job in itself.
As an Indy you've also got to spend some time, often years, working up some clientele out of the competition, and that can be hard. Even if your clients are yards, either they've got other folks at hand, or there's a reason they don't. Of course you never know, it might pay to drop around to a few while things are slow now, ask to speak with the boss or owner, explain that you've got solid creds and USN experience (which will count) and ask what the prospects are for someone coming into the field. Whether they have any problem finding RELIABLE skilled help, someone who knows that "I'll be there at 0800" does not mean they'll meander in around noon.<G>
You know, a little field research in your own area. Remember, you're not going out on job interviews, you're conducting them. You're interviewing to see if they are suitable as employers. You never know, someone might make you an offer if they really do need workers!


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Hellosailor:

I'm not actually looking for employment as a marine electrician right this second, or without any creds. What I'm trying to determine, is if I should even pursue ABYC creds for the purpose of eventually shifting careers from gov't contracting to marine electrical work.

I realize that these days, I will not find work as an uncertified, un-insured electrical "handyman".


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

BubbleheadMd said:


> I have some quality of life questions for you:
> 
> 1. As an "independent" contractor, how do you rate your quality of life? Do you ever get time off? Ever manage to take a real vacation? Working yourself into an early grave?


I have a different situation than most. I spent 20 years in the biotech and pharmaceutical industry making excellent money. My wife has her own practice and my decision to do this was based solely around quality of life and the fact that we have a 5 year old whom we want to spend more time with.. I could easily book 50 hours + per week, but I usually don't. I don't because I want quality of life, which I did not have for 20 years..



BubbleheadMd said:


> 2. Does your pay keep up with living expenses like mortgage, car payment, and utilities plus money to save for a rainy day?


We never played the "keep up with the Jones'" game, like many of our friends did.. Without my wife's income it would be harder but if I booked more work it could easily work, for me. It would all depend on your lifestyle which I know nothing about.

My wife and I have zero debt, except for a moderate mortgage, and of course taxes. We pay cash for our cars & boats and don't have credit card bills. I borrowed no money to start my company as I already had business coming in from doing this part time, while I still worked in the "white collar" world. Building it up to a good head of steam was as easy as putting the word out on the street that I was taking on more clients. I have yet to have more than a couple of clients that did not give me at least one new "word of mouth" customer..



BubbleheadMd said:


> 3. As an independent, what kind of overhead do you have? A work truck? Do you own a shop (brick-and-mortar building?)


A number of years ago, when still in the "industry", I built myself a barn and paid cash. That is my shop now. I don't have a truck and can do most everything I need out of my Prius in the off season. If I need a bigger vehicle, usually in peak season, I use my wife's Pilot. I can fit all my tools it there without issue. If I need a pick up truck my brother and I share one and live in the same neighborhood, so that is easy..



BubbleheadMd said:


> 4. I suspect you're older than me. How do you feel about contorting and crawling through the cramped confines of vessels in order to run power wire, etc? Are you getting tired of it?


I'm 45 and have no problems other than being a little fatter than I once was.. I don't get tired of it.. I did get tired of the white collar BS and baby sitting/"managing" employees... I have been stuck in a lazarette before but only because my cell phone fell off the seat and out of reach. That won't happen again...



BubbleheadMd said:


> 5. How is your employability? Are you scrounging for jobs, or is work steady? What happened when the economy crapped out?


I specifically started my business when the economy was crapped out. Anyone with a business sense would do the same. Starting in a down economy teaches you more about running your business than starting one when all you do is turn away business. My wife came home one day after my fourth or fifth last minute "fly away" 24 hour notice "meeting" in two weeks and said _"I hate your job and think you to quit."_ ok no problem....

I am booked solid, or as solid as I want. I only take the jobs I want to and pass other ones onto other yards or installers. I try to keep to working on sailboats but do have a number of great power boat customers and a good "ex sailor" trawler crowd too.

I've been doing this a while though and have a lot of clientele who refer me to others. I don't advertise, or have not yet, and all my business comes word of mouth based on my work ethic, quality of work, and reputation.

Having been in high level sales and sales management for 20+ years and being college educated certainly does not hurt my success as a marine grunt..... Most guys I compete against are high school grads, at best, with no real B2B experience. I spent 20 years working with Doctors, the most educated group of people on the planet, so this is cake walk for me.. Talking and working with sailors and other boaters is easy compared to that.

Like anything it is all what YOU make of it. I can easily be as big or as small as I want even in Maine with a short season. I personally don't want to baby sit or deal with the State of Maine on such things as "workman's comp" etc. etc. so when I need help I simply 1099 them.

My job is all about quality of life, but if you need it to "survive", which I really don't, then you will be working pretty damn hard. There are a LOT of un-billable down time hours that you simply eat to be "fair" to the customer.. Like that ONE STUPID metric bolt you forgot to order that is necessary to completing the job and takes 1.5 un-billable hours to go and get....

Getting in good with your suppliers for delivery and ordering is key to making your business work. I spend a LOT of time at the computer ordering and parts for my jobs, so I don't waste time. I try to stay at under one chandlery or supply run per day but this requires inventory and planning, especially as an independent. You also have to be able to move onto the next job and leave one uncompleted until parts come in to be efficient. It is not uncommon to be juggling three to four projects at once. I have four going right now....


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Thanks Maine. This is _exactly_ the kind of data I needed.

I don't keep up with the Joneses either, but I have a mortgage and a car payment. Zero revolving debt.

However, I'm single so I'm carrying all the loads by myself. I don't have the luxury of a high-earing spouse to help carry the load while I get all of this sorted out.

This would definitely be my primary income for "survival", and I'm not sure it would pay the bills, even if I had a good client base and had all of my ducks in a row. I don't claim to be business savvy, but I do understand the need to be efficient or die.

I could model my overhead costs in a manner similar to yours. I own enough property that I could put a modest structure on to serve as my shop and my personal vehicle should be well suited to this sort of work. It's newer, spacious, reliable and fuel-efficient.

Sigh...hard to tell. I might be able to make it work, and I might not.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

BubbleheadMd said:


> Thanks Maine. This is _exactly_ the kind of data I needed.
> 
> However, I'm single so I'm carrying all the loads by myself. I don't have the luxury of a high-earing spouse to help carry the load while I get all of this sorted out.


Unfortunately I was the high earning spouse until I left the "industry"... i was tough to leave the "golden hand cuffs" trust me...



BubbleheadMd said:


> This would definitely be my primary income for "survival", and I'm not sure it would pay the bills, even if I had a good client base and had all of my ducks in a row. I don't claim to be business savvy, but I do understand the need to be efficient or die.


Starting from scratch would be very tough. I started from a solid part time client base and already had a reputation..



BubbleheadMd said:


> Sigh...hard to tell. I might be able to make it work, and I might not.


You know until I did it I had my doubts especially with what I was making.

What I learned pretty quickly was that I was dropping $300.00 to $500.00 per week on stupid stuff like Starbucks every few hours, or Sushi lunches two days a week at $60.00 - $80.00 a pop, because I could... We also ran about 4-5k per month in CC bills (paid off at the end of month in full) that we had no idea what we had even bought.... I was wearing/buying $600.00 to $1000.00 suits (they do last considerably longer than a $300.00 suit and you just don't work in that industry in cheap suits) and now I wear flip flops and shorts....

The old adage "you spend what you make" is 100% spot on... Hell our cable bill used to be close to $300.00 a month we now don't even have cable and don't miss it. We replaced it with Netflix and Hulu Plus for $14.00.....


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Hi bubblehead. No, I didn't mean go out and interview yards for a "right now", I only meant that while you are checking out the local scene, you never know what someone might offer you. In the meantime though, if there are particular certifications or status they are looking for, you find this out now so you can decide what to look into or where to start. Some shops, some areas, they only want to hire "independent contractors" and they'll close their eyes to a lot fo things. Others will want employees who absolutely won't be working for the guy next door on the weekend. Or, you might find out they all pay so little that the plan just won't work.

It is a funny thing (not) but just a few days ago I heard some radio spot about why there are thre million unemployed people while there are four million unfilled job openings. Well, yeah, and the story time and time again turns out to be that the "job openings" pay so little, that no one is going to take them. Like pizza delivery, where most shops expect you to live on tips, and even then the only way to make money is by hoping your auto insurer doesn't find out you're making commercial use of the vehicle ($$) and you're ignoring the mileage costs you burn up. The guys who run the shops, they know they're not paying enough money to break even and do it legitimately, then they complain when they can't find another sucker for the job.
I'm not saying that will apply to this field in that area--just that an _awful _lot of business tries to operate that way these days. It pays to "interview" them up front, get a feel for what is happening in your area. Heck, talk to some of the installers and see how they think it is working out too.
"Good help is hard to find" still seems to apply all over. Mechanic, electrician, plumber...finding one that is honest, competent, reliable, not an easy trick once you add "affordable" into the mix. Or even before that.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

There are lots of independent marine service/trades guys in my area but they are no competition for the small number of competent, reliable and honest guys. Those guys work as much as they want year round in a place with a five month season and make $80 - $100/hr.

There is a healthy market for quality and service in every industry as evidenced by mainesail's story


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

I'll share my observations, and lessons from my experience. 

First off my background: I've been messing with electrical stuff since I could walk (literally). My folks had a circa 1950 multimeter, and I played with it, until I figured out what made the needle move. When I went to college, I studied electrical engineering for 4 years (part of a 5 year co-op program) and worked as the lab guy that brought everything back up to snuff after a class of electronics techs had their turn learning how to install configure and troubleshoot in the training department of a large manufacturer (I think that I made $2.50/hr). 

I left school after I figured out that I didn't want to be designing terminals, and found a job as a burglar alarm technician for two years. This doubled my pay ($5.00/hr), and I had a company van and gas card, in return for being on 24 hour call 1 week out of four. (this was 30 years ago) Installing alarm systems, I learned how the other half lived, and realized that I would never get there while fixing alarms, so I completed college with a degree in liberal arts. I had a work study job as a computer operator, and terminal technician. I tried recently to get back into the alarm field, but cannot because most states require a Class D electrician's license.

After school I was hired in the training department of the second largest computer manufacturer at that time. I taught techs how to install, maintain and troubleshoot to the IC, tape drives, disk drives, the processor, and how to run diagnostics. That was 25 years ago.

Sorry for the long discourse, but, I get frustrated that people don't give me credit for knowing how to use a DVM. Also, like you, I did not get "certified" in any of this stuff, because at the time, there was no certification, other than the certification program that I created and signed my name to.

So three years ago I was laid off (from a company that laid EVERYBODY off just before they were sold). Because I had some free time, I took an ABYC Recreational Marine Electonics seminar, at which I learned the ABYC color code, and can recall very little else. I then found out about a Recreational Marine Electonics course offered at my local community college, and signed up. I re-learned the ABYC color code, and learned how to connect gauges on a boat. I also learned that there is NO REQUIREMENT that you be certified to do Marine Electrical installations. You can just hang out a shingle, and get customers. 

Most of what I have learned related to Marine Electrical, I attribute to; 50+ years of playing with this stuff, High School physics, the SailNet peanut gallery (you know who you are), and Maine Sail (and not in that order).

I hope that this helps!


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

boatpoker said:


> There are lots of independent marine service/trades guys in my area but *they are no competition for the small number of competent, reliable and honest guys.* Those guys work as much as they want year round in a place with a five month season and make $80 - $100/hr.
> 
> There is a healthy market for quality and service in every industry as evidenced by mainesail's story


I really appreciate this comment.
If I were to do this, I would be absolutely committed to performing quality installations and work. My conscience simply wouldn't let me perform shoddy work where someone could be shocked, injured, or have their bronze prop rot out from under them in 3 months.

One reason I'm interested in this, is because these days, "tradesman" are looked down upon. These days, you're considered trash if you're not a money counter or some sort of IT guru or IT security guru.

Electrician, plumber, pipe fitter, HVAC and engine mechanic are vital, under-manned, occupations that are essential to keeping the nation running. These jobs aren't for dummies, or sloppy workers. They require intelligence, but they also require those two dirty words: "Manual Labor".

I guess I was kind of hoping to cash in on the fact that lots of people don't want to get dirty, in addition to not knowing much about electricity.

I think I'll look into getting the ABYC certifications, and in the meantime, start offering myself as electrical help.


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

Bubble,

I realize it's been six months since you started this thread and I hope you found something that can get you to where you want. I won't offer advise on what is the best path to take but I can provide you with my own experiences. Hope it helps. 

I started my apprenticeship with the IBEW in 1974. We had four years of schooling that taught just about every aspect of electricity they could stuff in during that four years. The problem is we forget what we learn if we don't practice it. I still have all the books from school and referred to them often during my career. I was constantly reminded about how much I had forgotten. I have a lot of certifications, including NEMA, but they mattered little, except to present them when needed, which wasn't very often. But they did open better doors for me.

One thing I was told as a 1st year apprentice is you can expect this job to keep you employed an average of 9 months a year over the life of your career. It wasn't nearly that bad but one time I was out of work for 6 months. 

Construction is similar to the boating industry in that both are quickly affected by a bad economy. When that affects you directly, you can either sit back and watch soaps or hustle for work. I was the primary or sole bread winner so I had to do the latter. Since I liked the work, that didn't bother me.

Early in my career, the opportunity to go out on my own presented itself. I had just finished my apprenticeship and wasn't yet married. Even though I was handed some nice contracts in the beginning, I still worked 50 hours a week in the field and another 20-30 keeping it running and trying to build it. I took on a partner and that was a total bust. A bad economy ended the business because I had all my eggs in one basket.

When I went back to being an employee I started doing side jobs. Over the next several years I became so busy I was taking time off my regular job to meet the demand. I considered going back into business again but I chose the "stability" of being an employee. There were many times I regretted that decision.

If you're working for yourself, there's a lot of freedom, if you want it, but once you fail to perform for a customer, you risk losing them. Self employment can be one of the easiest low-paying jobs and one of the hardest high-paying jobs.

On the electrical end of things, there is no question in my mind once you step off the land-based electrical world and board a boat, plenty of things change. Electricity still does what it does but it's routed to do things differently and there are very different standards. When my dad bought his boat I was a 2nd year apprentice. I thought I was pretty smart. He needed instruments installed and I did it and they worked. One day a guy from the yard my dad had befriended called out to me and said, "You wired the boat like a house!"  And I thought the person who wired the electrical panel using black wire for the "neutral" was the dummy. 

That got me started on reading up on marine electrical systems. I didn't want to be embarrassed again. I learned the differences between building construction and marine systems were more than I imagined. And the more I learned, the more I found there was to learn. 

As for aging, yes, the body gives out over time. I left the field several times in my career and worked as a project manager. After each stint ended, I went back into the field for a vacation. The first time, it was nothing. I was able to jump right back in, but I was 44 then. The second time going back was a bit harder and the third time I was 55 and I then understood why so many tradesmen retired early. 

I was fortunate enough to be pulled out of the field again, but this time for a dream job designing electrical systems and drawing it up in CAD. That ended just shy of my 58th birthday. Work was slow with no relief in sight so I took early retirement. The past had taught me well. Father Time always wins.

On the flip side, retirement can kill you faster than work if you don't keep active. Had I taken the path of self employment and built a business, I probably wouldn't be retired and if I was smart enough to hire good people, I wouldn't have to work myself to death.

Good luck in whatever path you take.


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