# O'day 302 lost keel



## US27inKS (Feb 6, 2005)

One of our club members lost his boat this weekend. Fortunately it happened right in front of the club, and someone saw the boat go over. Myself and two others raced out in one of our pontoon boats and pulled 4 people out of the water. No one was hurt.

Here's what happened as far as I know. I haven't examined the boat, and likely never will be able to.

A father and his 3 adult sons went out for a sail on a beautiful Saturday. Winds were 10-15 mph. They were sailing about 100 yards off the east shore, across from our club, about a mile across the lake, and it was just before dusk. The boat started taking on water. The water ingress was slow at first, and the crew assumed that they had lost a hose for the head. One of the crew went below, threw the 3 life jackets that were already laying out up into the cockpit, and started bailing with a bucket. The engine was started and the crew turned into the wind to drop the sails. The water started coming faster, and the situation was looking bad. Then the boat shuddered a bit, and the water started coming in like a geyser. The sails were still up, and the boat was knocked over almost immediately. The crew who was below swam out of the companionway and grabbed a floating life jacket. One of the crew grabbed the horseshoe. I had just pulled my dinner off the grill when someone yelled that a keelboat just went over. I saw the entire bottom of the boat, but it took a bit for me to react. I guess I wasn't really sure I was seeing what I was seeing. The engine started smoking badly, which was my first clue that this was a really bad situation. Someone called 911, someone else got on the vhf to the coast guard, and 3 of us headed for the docks. When we arrived on the scene 5-10 minutes after the boat went over, most of the boat was underwater. The mast is in the mud, and there is a small amount of air trapped in the hull keeping it afloat just breaking the surface of the water. According to one of the crew, there is a large hole (4-6 inches) torn in the hull at the back of the keel joint. My guess is that the boat had corroded keel bolts. The aft bolt was likely the only one in relatively good condition. When the forward bolts let go, the aft bolt took a piece of the boat with it as the keel came off.

This morning one of our club members tied a couple of white plastic barrels to the wreck. There was a lot of traffic on the lake today, there was no sense in having to do another rescue.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Holy *#^#^!!! Glad everybody was okay in the end. Sounds like some good thinking by all on shore and a good move as well tying the buckets to warn of the hazard. 

I had a wooden boat once with a poorly supported keel (design flaw) and this story makes me shudder! As you might expect I now have an overbuilt (heavy) encapsulated fiberglass keel on my new boat. 

MedSailor


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Denby—

Better check your keelbolts.


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## denby (Feb 21, 2007)

sailingdog said:


> Denby-
> 
> Better check your keelbolts.


I do a visual a couple times a year.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I wonder what the cause of the keel failure was??


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## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

Apparently, there is a design weakness with the 3 digit series of O'days, at least the larger boats like the 302 and 322. This in not the first one to have lost its keel, and where there is smoke there is fire. There are lots of boats with a very similar design in the same age range and their keels are not comming off, so its not just an age related thing. I owned an O'day 322 and if I still had it, I think I'd be considering dropping the keel to at least inspect and likely to replace the bolts and having a backing plate designed to fit in the bilge to spread the load over a wider area. I am a bay sailor, but the bay is nearly 25 miles wide where I sail and loosing your keel in the middle of a crossing would be a very dangerous situation, especially if you weren't buddy boating with someone.


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## US27inKS (Feb 6, 2005)

The really fortunate part of this sinking was it's timing. The boat sank on Saturday, and the 4 men who came out of the water said that some of their wives and children were supposed to come sailing Sunday. That would have put at least 4 more people in the water, including small children. Since the crewman who went below could only find 3 life jackets (there were more but he didn't know where to look), it could have been ugly.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

glad no one got hurt! But this news doesn't help me feel better about my "encapsulated" keel that doesn't have bolts (at least not that I know of) Even though it seems very very solid.


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## US27inKS (Feb 6, 2005)

denby said:


> I do a visual a couple times a year.


Visual of what? I would put a torque wrench on them to see if they hold torque or break off.

When I was rebuilding my boat, I checked my keelbolts with a torque wrench. Since there are little to no specs available for my boat, I guessed on the torque based on the bolt size. I figured they could easily hold 150 pounds, so I set the torque wrench at 120. None of them moved.


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## denby (Feb 21, 2007)

US27inKS said:


> Visual of what? I would put a torque wrench on them to see if they hold torque or break off.
> 
> When I was rebuilding my boat, I checked my keelbolts with a torque wrench. Since there are little to no specs available for my boat, I guessed on the torque based on the bolt size. I figured they could easily hold 150 pounds, so I set the torque wrench at 120. None of them moved.


Haven't done a torque test but I check the bolts and nuts for any sign of corrosion and when the boat is on the slings checking the keel to hull joint.


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## Joel73 (Apr 23, 2007)

denby said:


> Haven't done a torque test but I check the bolts and nuts for any sign of corrosion and when the boat is on the slings checking the keel to hull joint.


This is exactly how i inspect our 1987 Pearson 27... about the same vintage as the O'Day 302. I wonder if we should do more. At last haulout this past spring everything looked good but what exactly should i look for? We have a small amount of surface rust but nothing alarming. We do have a backing plate on each bolt but they are nopt as large as they could be... about 3" square. The keel joint looks good with no separation except for the seem... (no gap.)

I'm glad that this was not worse for those guys... sounds like timing was everything in this situation and they had some good help out there!


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

denby said:


> Haven't done a torque test but I check the bolts and nuts for any sign of corrosion and when the boat is on the slings checking the keel to hull joint.


I am very grateful everyone is ok! This could have ended much worse..

Checking the keel to hull joint is good practice. Unfortunately many production boats including cetarin models from O'Day, Pearson and Catalina, to name but a few, had plywood laminated into the keel stubs to save labor time and build thickness faster. Catalina stopped this practice in 1987.

Sadly keels are surrounded by water on both sides, bilge, and ocean/lake side. Eventually water gets into the keel stub and if wood is present it begins to absorb moisture and rot. Now add stainless keel bolts to the mix and you have a perfect environment for stainless steel crevice corrosion. You can NOT see crevice corrosion of keel bolts because it is happening below the washers inside the keel stub where there is little oxygen.

I have stated this many times before, and will say it once again, we WILL be seeing more events like this as time passes and these boats get older. As someone above mentioned this is NOT the first O'Day to loose its keel like this. There was one a couple of years ago on the great lakes that suffered a similar problem.

I dropped the keel on my old Catalina 30 about ten years ago and had to replace 70% of the keel bolts and also remove the wood core and re-build the keel stub. I am fairly certain that keel would have fallen off by now if I had done nothing.

If you have ANY signs of keel smile that exhibits moisture for more than a few hours after haul out the keel joint should be further examined and the keel should probably be dropped and re-bedded with bolts replaced that need it. Mars Metals, a large keel maker in Canada, does full J bolt replacement. While not cheap they are one of the few shops that replace keel bolts to like new standards and do it the right way.

Many members of sailing forums often give potentially dangerous advice when it comes to keel smiles. "It's fine they all do it" etc. etc.. They CAN be serious and just because many fin keel boats have smiles does not mean it is safe to do nothing in all cases..

A dry thin crack, like you'd see in drywall, is usually ok but the inside of teh keel stub should also be examined for moisture damage. A crack that leaks moisture for more than a few hours after the boat is on the hard is usually a bad sign that water has penetrated the keel to hull joint and your probably in need of a re-set.

*This keel joint was still leaking after an entire winter on the hard = BAD!!:*








*
This is crevice corrosion of a Pearson keel:*








*
Crevice corrosion of an Ericson keel bolt:*








*
The plywood keel stub laminate of a Pearson 26:*


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

Main Sail
Do you recommend the torque test.
On your first picture, what exactly are we looking for that we can see in the picture?


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

davidpm said:


> Main Sail
> Do you recommend the torque test.
> On your first picture, what exactly are we looking for that we can see in the picture?


Look at the water and rust stains dripping off the keel. This boat had been on the hard for about six months and the keel joint was still weeping water. The joint should be dry and not weeping water any within a few hours of haul out not months & months..

Here are a couple more bad ones. All photos taken in the spring after a full six months to dry..


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## denby (Feb 21, 2007)

Well I guess this fall I remove the keel and see if everything is ok.


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## US27inKS (Feb 6, 2005)

davidpm said:


> Main Sail
> Do you recommend the torque test.
> On your first picture, what exactly are we looking for that we can see in the picture?


I don't know if the torque test is the right thing to do, but I can tell you one thing, if my keel bolts looked like the ones above, they would have snapped at 120 lbs of torque.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Better safe than sorry.... 


denby said:


> Well I guess this fall I remove the keel and see if everything is ok.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

US27inKS said:


> I don't know if the torque test is the right thing to do, but I can tell you one thing, if my keel bolts looked like the ones above, they would have snapped at 120 lbs of torque.


Just don't do it two days before launch or you will have lost a whole season if a bolt snaps. For boaters up North if you do a torque test do it in the fall so you have all winter to fix this. It is time consuming and $$... For Southern boaters, who sail less in the ultra hot weather, perhaps June would be a good time to do a torque test..?

Only do a torque test if you are ready to deal with the consequences..


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## US27inKS (Feb 6, 2005)

Maine Sail said:


> Only do a torque test if you are ready to deal with the consequences..


My thought is that you should delay the torque test only if you're ready to deal with the consequences. I would rather break a keel bolt in the slip, and have to haul the boat for the season, than lose a keel out on the water.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

US27inKS said:


> My thought is that you should delay the torque test only if you're ready to deal with the consequences. I would rather break a keel bolt in the slip, and have to haul the boat for the season, than lose a keel out on the water.


I would say you "ARE" ready to deal with the consequences as Mainesail said. ie lose a summer of sailing. UNLESS, do yards work in the winter back that way? in that case, tighten the bolts when you pull the boat, then fix over winter. To me, that would be the better option.

Marty


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## US27inKS (Feb 6, 2005)

blt2ski said:


> I would say you "ARE" ready to deal with the consequences as Mainesail said. ie lose a summer of sailing. UNLESS, do yards work in the winter back that way? in that case, tighten the bolts when you pull the boat, then fix over winter. To me, that would be the better option.
> 
> Marty


Waiting until winter and risking the loss of a keel is a better option? If I knew that my boat had a known problem with keel loss while sailing, I would rather torque the bolts and be sure. I'm fairly risk tolerant, but this seems like a no brainer.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

I was in the "assuming" you are in the water now. Try torquing this fall when you haul out vs waiting until spring before launch. "IF" you are STILL on the hard, torque the now and see what happens.

If you torque this fall, and things are screwy, you can get the work done this winter, assuming yards are able to work etc etc

Marty


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## US27inKS (Feb 6, 2005)

I took my camper to the lake this morning in order to claim a camping spot early before they fill up. The salvage crew had just pulled the boat out of the water when I arrived. I took a look at the keel stub. It looks like the laminate failed at the bottom of the keel stub. The sides of the keel stub are in good condition, but the bottom is gone. There is enough fiberglass left in some areas to show that at least some of the keel bolts were pulled through the laminate, nuts and washers included. I suspect that there may have been wood filler in the layup, but I can't be sure at this point. 

I'm heading to the lake after work, and I'll take my camera. Should be able to upload some good pics on monday.


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

John, thanks for keeping us informed. I just moved a 323 O'Day for the owner yesterday. You bet I was thinking of this thread.


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

John,
Thanks for the post.

Has anyone heard of any C30s losing their keels due to crevice corrosion?


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## dave6330 (Aug 16, 2006)

Do you have to worry about this kind of nightmare with boats with encapsulated keels (I just bought a Pearson 365)?


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

US27inKS said:


> ... It looks like the laminate failed at the bottom of the keel stub. The sides of the keel stub are in good condition, but the bottom is gone. There is enough fiberglass left in some areas to show that at least some of the keel bolts were pulled through the laminate, nuts and washers included.....


It seems you are saying that the keel bolts weren't the source of the failure, it was the layup of the bottom of the keel stub that failed? Interesting for sure. good luck eye-balling for this weakness...assuming there was wood in the layup, then that would sound like a construction red flag for boat buyers to watch for.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Nah, you just have to worry about water getting into the encapsulated ballast and causing corrosion or damage to the hull causing the ballast to leak out the side instead. 


dave6330 said:


> Do you have to worry about this kind of nightmare with boats with encapsulated keels (I just bought a Pearson 365)?


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## US27inKS (Feb 6, 2005)

sailingfool said:


> It seems you are saying that the keel bolts weren't the source of the failure, it was the layup of the bottom of the keel stub that failed? Interesting for sure. good luck eye-balling for this weakness...assuming there was wood in the layup, then that would sound like a construction red flag for boat buyers to watch for.


I can't say for sure whether the keel bolts were at fault or it was the layup. The layup sure looks suspect to me, but I can't say that he didn't break a couple of bolts, then the remaining bolts may have overloaded the laminate. Unless we see the keel (fat chance) we may never know. If the laminate were a problem I would think that torquing the bolts would compress the laminate and make me want to drop the keel just as much as if I had broken a bolt.


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## US27inKS (Feb 6, 2005)

As promised, I got pictures. I intentionally left them very large so some of you FRP laminate experts can see detail.

I didn't see any evidence of wood in the layup, but it looks as though some of the layers could have been dry. Someone take me to school regarding what is wrong with this hull.


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## denby (Feb 21, 2007)

Thanks for posting those John. I hope someone can tell what happened. The keel weighs about 3400 bl so there is quite a load there.


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## US27inKS (Feb 6, 2005)

It looks as though there may have been some voids in the layup, but I'm no expert. The part that really concerned me about the layup was the fact that there is still a layer of glass attached to the bilge pump. It would have taken very little adhesion for the keel to have taken the bilge pump with it.

If you want to see more photos, I can post them.

Edit: I did hear rumors of another 302 with the keel loose at one of the other marinas at the lake. Rumors only though.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

If this is one of the "time" bomb things that will happen due to unknown how too's at the time. It would not surprise me that another local boat has issues. Usually if one has an issue, another will in the same place, generally speaking, same time, or a variable time/use frame. 

I have seen some J-Boat issues and there keels seeming to fall off too. Not sure how much of those issues are design/build, vs lack of maintenance by the owner, or pushing the boat beyond all expected means, and lack of maintenance..........

Marty


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## US27inKS (Feb 6, 2005)

blt2ski said:


> If this is one of the "time" bomb things that will happen due to unknown how too's at the time. It would not surprise me that another local boat has issues. Usually if one has an issue, another will in the same place, generally speaking, same time, or a variable time/use frame.


Agreed. We have another Oday 302 in our marina. I haven't talked to the owner yet, but I would be surprised if he doesn't pull it for an inspection. 2 boats in the same lake with keel stub problems just a few months apart would make me pull my boat.


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

John,
Do you know what year the boat is?


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## US27inKS (Feb 6, 2005)

sailhog said:


> John,
> Do you know what year the boat is?


1988


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Weren't the last few years of Odays actually built by Pearson? Scary Pics! I must say (shudder)


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

The last few years the O'Days may have been built by Pearson for O'Day/Bangor Punta. BO is whom owned, Oday, Cal, ranger and at least Jeanneau in the 80's before all but Jeanneau went down. I would not be suprised of the French gvmnt had something to do with Jeanneau not going down, and getting picked up quickly but another outfit, then about 10 yrs later getting sold to Group Beneteau.

Pearson is or has been a builder of J-Boats too. So whom is to say these are not issues with the factory, "BUT" issues that will not show up for 20'ish yrs or there abouts too. Altho the J-Boats have been 5-10 or so yrs old IIRC, maybe a bit older.

If my mid 80s Jeanneau is built like the 80's O'Day, it would and does make me look at the keel as best as one can when she is hauled every yr or two.

I Heart O'Days may have some info on whom built what odays in what yrs, along with model numbers.

Marty


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## Hillster (Nov 19, 2008)

Lear Siegler bought O'day from Bangor Punta in the mid eighties. Not all O'days have the keel bolt problem. The only ones that had loosening bolt issues (that I know of) were the 302 and the 322 (1987 thru C.O.B.). A keel falling off on these two models is not a common thing since over 500 were built (including both models). Many Catalinas and Hunters among other designs had keel issues over the years. Any large production run is going to have a few bad apples slip thru.


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## Hillster (Nov 19, 2008)

I will say that it is wise to have the keel bolts checked on any boat with an external keel when you have her hauled for what ever reason.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

If only I had keel bolts! or knew where/how they attached! everyone say: "don't worry bout it! encapsulated keels are stronger then the hull..." 

there are 2 or 3 really heavy stringers that cross the bilge in my boat. Tapping on the them they sound very very solid.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

sailhog said:


> John,
> Thanks for the post.
> 
> Has anyone heard of any C30s losing their keels due to crevice corrosion?


No but I was about one season away and was very lucky I caught it. All the bolts that went through the plywood were about the diameter of 1/4X20 bolt. Very, very scary.


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## GaryHLucas (Mar 24, 2008)

I just spent the past 4 days wearing a tyvek suit grinding out the bottom of my Etap 26 retractable keel boat. The entire keel trunk was heading south. It had already moved about 1". A very simple case of TCDA (Terminal Case of Dumb Ass) The idiot that designed this boat should have been hung! Today I started glassing in the repairs.

Boats with bad keels seem attracted to me. The 1976 Hunter 27 I owned in 1982 also had the keel nearly fall off. The pictures of the Oday are very reminesent, except the TCDA of that Hunter design was right off the charts! I had to cut the entire floor out of hte boat to get to the repair area. 3 five gallon buckets later I had a clean hull and started rebuilding the stringers from scratch. I sold the boat to a guy who sailed it from NJ and back 3 times. he called me 8 years later to tell me the bilge had water fro the first time. It turned out the rubber conveyor belt I used under large stainless plates to protect the glass had dry rotted. He replaced that and the boat was completely dry again.

I am very surprised that you don't hear more about keel design flaws from surveyors. There are a hee lof a lot of boats out there with really bad engineering on the keel supports.

I will post some before and after pictures of the repair job I am doing now.

Gary H. Lucas


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

This thread is very interesting...and informative. I have a few things I am going to watch more closely.


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## denby (Feb 21, 2007)

Up date: hauled my 1988 O'day 302 boat a few weeks ago, as it was on the travel lift the operator noticed a little drooping and wobble of the keel. Sailingdog and I cleaned the bilge and checked the bolts, saw nothing wrong in the bilge. Dawg was there when they lifted the boat off the keel, but do to the mast still stepped they only lifted it a few inches. the only thing Dawg saw was a bad bedding job, the 3M 5200 did not adhere to the boat or lead, bolts looked ok at lead. The po had a problem a with the back bolt 7 years ago and had it replaced.
A few questions, 
1, does anyone know for sure if there is a core in the hull construction at the keel joint on this boat?
2, should I drill down from the top with a 3/4in hole saw between 2 bolts to see what is down there?
MaineSail and others, your advise is greatly appreciated.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Dennis,

Have you looked at the I Heart O'Days site to see if any info is there? I hope it is .com, might be .org!

Marty


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## denby (Feb 21, 2007)

blt2ski said:


> Dennis,
> 
> Have you looked at the I Heart O'Days site to see if any info is there? I hope it is .com, might be .org!
> 
> Marty


Just now checking it out, thanks. I'll let you know.


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## GaryHLucas (Mar 24, 2008)

What does the glas look like in the bilge? On my Hunter 27 it looked 'Dry' like it had very little resin in it. It turned out the resin had been crushed leaving flexible fibers.

What do the washers under the nuts look like? If they are cupped from the load then they have been crushing the resin out of the glass under the washer. I wound up reglassing the whole area with another 3/4" of epoxy and woven roving. I then added the much larger stainless plates under the washers.

Gary H. Lucas


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

The glass looks fine, not starved of resin... and the washers aren't cupped. There's also no stress cracking in the bilge or on the bottom of the keel stub that I was able to see. It was unusual to see the 5200 let go of most of the surface area without a fight...


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## US27inKS (Feb 6, 2005)

sailingdog said:


> The glass looks fine, not starved of resin... and the washers aren't cupped. There's also no stress cracking in the bilge or on the bottom of the keel stub that I was able to see. It was unusual to see the 5200 let go of most of the surface area without a fight...


Denby said the lift operator noticed a little droop and wobble from the keel. Were the bolts loose? I would think that if the bolts were tight, the only indication that there was a problem with the 5200 would be a leak, wouldn't it? If the keel were truly loose and wobbly, wouldn't there be a substantial leak?

Denby - I don't think it would hurt to take a "core sample" from the stub to see what's in there and how well the layup is holding up. The boat that I posted pics of obviously had serious problems with delamination of the stub. If I were you, I would want to be sure.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

sailingdog said:


> The glass looks fine, not starved of resin... and the washers aren't cupped. There's also no stress cracking in the bilge or on the bottom of the keel stub that I was able to see. It was unusual to see the 5200 let go of most of the surface area without a fight...


Not uncommon for the factory workers to not clean the mold release wax from the hull...

As I understand it these boats were modified during production to address some stub/keel issues but I have no real confirmation of this and only hear-say from some owners. They were apparently also built under different companies too.

I would check the actual thickness of the keel stub.

On this boat it was not very thick.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Mainesail—

My understanding is that the keel had been removed and re-bedded by the previous owner, who had broken the fourth keel bolt, which is significantly smaller and weaker than the other three. I think the keel stub on this boat is a good deal more substantial than the one shown in your photo. 

US27inKS—

I agree, taking a core sample would be a good idea, or at least dropping the keel entirely and looking in the existing bolt holes. 

I also spoke with the lift operator and he clarified that the keel wasn't wobbling, at least not noticeably, but that there was a slight gap in between the keel and the keel stub. I believe the slight gap was due to the 5200 having pulled out of position due to the inadequate surface preparation. The reason I think that the boat did not leak to any major degree is that the keelbolts were keeping the 5200 under compression and it was effectively working as a gasket while the boat was in the water. 

I would be very surprised to not see any stress cracks in the laminate if the keel was moving to any significant degree. It is a very heavy wing-keel casting, and has very significant forces on it when the boat is under sail or when the boat goes aground...which I believe Denby did do this past season...at least once or twice...


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## denby (Feb 21, 2007)

I hit a rock 2 summers ago. Never had water coming in from keel.


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## mintcakekeith (Nov 5, 2009)

Testing in situ keel bolts with a torque wrench tells you nothing except perhaps that it is corroded in place. the only way to check keel bolts is to draw them, visualy inspect and if stainless give them a good smack with a large hammer.check lubricated bolt for correct torque on reffiting.


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