# Sizes of genoas



## Maravilloso (Jul 10, 2013)

hi,
i sail a huges 38 mk1 in Progreso, Yucatan, Mexico.
The members of our club asking west florida HPRF for the hadicaps of our boats.
I measured the size of my genoa and it was 160%. We won one of the regattas
ans some felow captains wanted to measure our genoa again.
Maybe i made a mistake in the measurements, and the new sizes was 162%
is there any diferent between 160% and 162% in hadicaps.?


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

Sails are not normally handicapped using the simple overlap percentage you are referring to. The measurements of the sail are used to calculate sail area and then compared to the standard sail area for the particular boat. If a proper phrf handicap was generated the certificate would list your genoa "code". A code 5 genoa would be standard with no adjustment to your rating. A higher number would be oversize, and a lower number would be undersize with corrections to your rating applied appropriately. 

Having said that I just looked at the WFPHRF website, and they do indeed seem to ask for genoa size as a percentage! Whether 2% will change your rating depends on the formula they have come up with, and how close your sail is to the next "code".

Realistically I doubt it will make much difference on paper OR on the water. If you ask me it is pretty bad form for your fellow club members to challenge you on your handicap and your sail measurements after a race! It pretty much implies that you were cheating and that is why you won! If they really wanted to confirm sail measurements they should have EVERYONE bring their sails up and measure them all over some beers rather than single you out because you won!


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

SchockT said:


> If you ask me it is pretty bad form for your fellow club members to challenge you on your handicap and your sail measurements after a race! It pretty much implies that you were cheating and that is why you won! If they really wanted to confirm sail measurements they should have EVERYONE bring their sails up and measure them all over some beers rather than single you out because you won!


Schock really? How long have you been racing (I kid of course I know you've been racing forever)? The winner ALWAYS gets the most scrutiny, especially for handicap racing.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

Here's how PHRF NE sets adjustments:
PHRF New England - Handicapping - Handicap Adjustments

In these area rules there is in fact a penalty for 160.1%+.


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

What do the rules say? In PHRF of the Ches Bay you can have up to a 155%. Anything bigger you get dinged. A lot. Rules are rules and ignorance doesn't imply innocents.


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

in most PHRF rules the the boats are rated with a 155% genoa. 155.1 to 160 cost you 3 points and 160.1 to 170 another 3 points


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## jgeissinger (Feb 25, 2002)

To ditto Shnool above, there is absolutely nothing wrong with filing a protest for a suspected equipment violation. That being said, it is far more likely that your measurements are not accurate. I've never heard of a sail maker making a 160% (or 162%) genoa. 150% is the common measurement, with 155% allowed as the max to account for stretch and variations. It is easy to be slightly off when you measure the 90 degree angle at the luff to get the accurate LP measurement. Something more obvious, like a 170% (which are occasionally made) might be more apparent. I would bet money you have a 155%.


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## Sailormon6 (May 9, 2002)

I just looked at the West Florida phrf Rules, and APPENDIX C addresses Adjustments To Ratings. Paragraph 1.0 says a sail measuring more than 155% and up to and including 165% has a -3 adjustment. If those are the rules under which you are racing, your sail should be ok, as being within those parameters. 

Nevertheless, as you can see, measurements should be very carefully made, because any inaccuracy can, at the least, be embarrassing, and at the worst, it can be embarrassing AND cost you a victory.


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

what was your measurement your boat should have LP for a 155 of 6850 mm
J= 14.5"/ 4419.6mm times 1.55 = LP 22.475' /6850.38 mm


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## aelkin (Feb 3, 2013)

jgeissinger said:


> That being said, it is far more likely that your measurements are not accurate. I've never heard of a sail maker making a 160% (or 162%) genoa. 150% is the common measurement, with 155% allowed as the max to account for stretch and variations. It is easy to be slightly off when you measure the 90 degree angle at the luff to get the accurate LP measurement. Something more obvious, like a 170% (which are occasionally made) might be more apparent. I would bet money you have a 155%.


jg - fairly new fella here, but I don't know that I can agree with you on this one.
I have a C&C 35MK1, and the 'standard' No 1. Genoa used for racing these boats is 167% (if not cut for roller furling).
My 167% was subsequently cut down to 155%, and my stock #2 150% was cut down to 135%.

I think it's maybe narrow-minded to suggest to someone that just because you've never heard of it, it doesn't exist, and instead imply that the OP can't measure....?


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

jgeissinger said:


> To ditto Shnool above, there is absolutely nothing wrong with filing a protest for a suspected equipment violation. That being said, it is far more likely that your measurements are not accurate. I've never heard of a sail maker making a 160% (or 162%) genoa. 150% is the common measurement, with 155% allowed as the max to account for stretch and variations. It is easy to be slightly off when you measure the 90 degree angle at the luff to get the accurate LP measurement. Something more obvious, like a 170% (which are occasionally made) might be more apparent. I would bet money you have a 155%.


The only reason to make a sail to a 155 is to race PHRF
PHRF racers do not buy a sail cut to 150 and wait for it to stretch to a 155, if it is stretched that much it is wasted. we buy a sail cut right to the max measurement and they really do not stretch but if they do you have it re-cut. the LP measurement is the easiest measurement to preform put the tape end on the clew and measure the smallest length you can get at the luff by moving the tape up and down the luff


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## jgeissinger (Feb 25, 2002)

In reply to Aelkin: It is silly to get in a pissing match on an internet forum, and I try to avoid it. That being said, the largest "standard" genoa on virtually all boats is 150%. Go to the Sailrite sailplan database, which is essentially the data used by sailmakers, and look up your boat. I'm not just making this stuff up. 
P.S. I have been an official measurer for two different classes of one design boats and sort of know what I'm talking about.


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

jgeissinger said:


> It is silly to get in a pissing match on an internet forum, and I try to avoid it. That being said, the largest "standard" genoa on virtually all boats is 150%. Go to the Sailrite sailplan database, which is essentially the data used by sailmakers, and look up your boat. I'm not just making this stuff up.
> P.S. I have been an official measurer for two different classes of one design boats and sort of know what I'm talking about.


not really a pissing contest, you are talking about cruising boats and the thread is about sizing a sail for racing PHRF . raced with your Sail Rite sail lately. ask any sailmaker how many racers have them make a 150 when they are allowed to have a 155 without taking a rating points hit.
One design is way different then PHRF. when racing PHRF many One designs are allowed to use a 155 even when the one design only allows the stock sails


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## jgeissinger (Feb 25, 2002)

The reply wasn't directed to you. I was not talking about cruising boats, and I was not talking about Sailrite sails. Their sailplan database is a very useful and valuable tool. I am sorry I ever tried to give helpful advice to the OP. Later.


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## RainDog (Jun 9, 2009)

In the causal racing I have done people lie through their teeth on their handicapt forms. Granted some of that might be because it is easier to make something up than to find out the real answer.

Challenging a BS form seems honorable to me, but splitting hairs between 160 and 162 seems kind of lame in a casual race.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Locally the % is based on fortriangle area, no the LP! My max LP is 153, but I get 155% of my foretriangle area! So My sail maker made me an LP of 155, ended up with a code 6 jib, so got hit with a -3 rating! not what I really wanted frankly. But that is how it goes. 

I would have to do some looking in the local rules myself, but a 155.1 to 160 or so would be a -3 hit, a sail larger than 160.1 would be a -6.........

Spin and main sail areas are equal, in that you get a certain size based on a given triangle. Spin is 160% of the J and I square measure, IIRC about 120% of the e and P triangle for the main, including the roach measure. 

Locally if racing 1d, you need those sails, but if strickly phrf, you can have another set of sails that meets the phrf rules. So if 2d is a 110% jib, you can use a 155% if racing phrf rules. OR where the 1d requires say dacron sails, you can have string sails in a phrf race.

Marty


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## Maravilloso (Jul 10, 2013)

I appreciate all your comments, more minutes from second place, they get angrier.
We love racing, and I wanna be as legal as possible, after your comments, I'm sure
we arern´t goig to have any problems whith the 162%.
Progreso, in Yucatan, has the best wind around the yucatan Peninsula. WE have a club races whit about 20 to 25 boats.
any time that you want to come, your are welcome.
Jose Palma
Tactician of maravilloso
huges 38 mk 1


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## paulk (Jun 2, 2000)

People have suggested that measuring sails can be fraught with errors. That is why there is often a single measurer in a PHRF zone whose job it is to measure each sail that needs it. (Usually people take the sailmaker's word for it being 100%, 130%, or whatever.) Since the % of the jib is theoretically calculated based on the size of the actual foretriangle, it might make sense to measure THAT first. Raking your mast will make the fortriangle area smaller, for example. That might increase the % of your jib in relation to it. Making the mast form more of a right angle to the deck should make the foretriangle larger, so your jib would have a smaller %. Even so, as others have noted, the difference in ratings is in the range of +/- three seconds per mile: not huge. Different wave conditions could have a bigger effect on boats in your fleet than that.


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## tidewaterv (Jul 18, 2013)

this is why racing has fallen into difficult times..true get measurement correct.but petty ass complaints should require a remeasurment of complainers as well as defendant...suggesting someone is a cheat is wrong.&has hurt the sport..


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