# Outboard Size for 23ft sailboat?



## snider

I just bought a Beneteau First 235. It has a Nissan 9.9 on it now and it didn't start when I got the boat. I havn't took it apart yet but it got me thinking about buying a new outboard. What size do some of you have and what would get if you could get what you want? I want the smallest lightest thing I can get away with. I plan to use this boat for racing and cruising around Charleston SC with maybe a longer trip here and there. What size shaft do I need? Tohatsu makes a 6hp 25" shaft that would be sweet but I really want an internal tank, to get that I have to go to a 20" 4hp motor. I'm wondering if that would work? I basically have to push off the dock and I'm sailing, the boat before my Catalina didn't even have an engine, and I sailed that thing around here for over a year like that. What are some experiences and opinions? Thanks


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## scottyt

6 hp would be the min i would want unless i was a small lake sailor. a 9.9 is over sized but sometime the wind and current will make it the perfect size

yes you want as long of a shaft as you can get


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## sarischipper

*Outboard size for 23ft sailboat*

For small boats, engine power is related to boat displacement. A sailboat outboard should be a small as possible (low engine weight and correct proppellor pitch) The last one is mostly forgotten.

The formula is roughly, 4 hp per 2200lb

Then go to the internet to find a propellor calculator to determine your propellor size.

Petrol engines are mostly lighter than diesel (Tohatsu)

Good luck!!


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## BarryL

*4 Hp*

Hello,

My catalina 22 came with a long shaft Tohatsu 4 HP motor with internal tank. In flat water it would reach 6 kts. I never motored much and that motor worked great for the 1 year I owed the boat.

Good luck,
Barry


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## snider

*Long shaf*

Thanks, Barry by long shaft I suppose you mean the 20". I'm leaning toward the 4 hp Tohatsu because I like having an internal tank. the boat supposedly weighs 2500 punds. I did an online calculator that suggested a 5hp to reach hull speed. Thanks


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## snider

*Pulling my own chain a little!*

Hmph, have to write 3 characters.


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## camaraderie

The problem is the currents in Charleston can be wicked...you need a bit extra there. I'd go with the 6hp. As to the shaft length...it should be measured from the top of the transom mount to the surface of the water. You may need a long (19-21" measure) or an X-long if more than 22".


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## Insails

I would go with 6hp..I have a Columbia 22 displacement 2200lbs. I use a 4hp Yamaha and wished at times I had 6hp...The 4hp can be a bit slow getting to 
"Rudder Speed" some marina's are tight and its best to get enough speed fast to get rudder...Also going out or coming in against a tide can be a bit of a grind..Not another feeling in the world like having almost full throttle and no head way......You will also tire of an inboard tank should you get a few miles out and boom the wind drops to zero, the extra fuel is worth it,trust me


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## snider

*Thrust*

Thats a good point with the thrust issue. It would be nice to have that quicker acceleration. I'm 50-50 torn between the 6 and 4. Someone mentioned a 5 that had an internal tank. The wind around here is pretty reliable. I've been sans engine on my last boat and only once the whole year had to anchor and wait for wind, there was actually wind just not enough to fight the current. I just need it for docking, when I cruise I'll carry the extra tank. Hopefully 'll have this boat for years to come so I want to make the right decision. I guess it would be better wanting less than more. Hmmm. best case scenario its perfect  Thanks for the input, getting me thinking.


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## retclt

We have an old Suzuki 8 medium (20") shaft on a Chrysler 26 (5000lbs) and hull speed is never and issue . . . unless there are waves and the boat hobby horses. Then the propeller comes out of the water repeatedly and screams. Get the longest shaft available! Honda makes a really good 5hp and 8hp with 25" shafts. I imagine the 4 stroke 5hp Honda would be more powerful than my 2 stroke 8hp Suzuki. If we keep the C26 we will buy the 9.9 (25") Honda. Btw . . . I spoke with a Coast Guard mechanic and he swears the Honda is the most dependable outboard made. I'm not married to any brand. I love our Suzuki . . . it's just too short.


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## TohatsuGuru

Buy the 4 hp. If you need the additional 2 hp just buy the 6 hp carburetor and bolt it in place of the one that comes on the 4. The 4 hp Tohatsu is a 6 hp engine with a restricted carb on it.


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## snider

*Thanks*

Just the info I was looking for! I'm going to look at the Honda 5hp and compare prices with the 4hp Tohatsu. Thanks


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## snider

*Hmm*



TohatsuGuru said:


> Buy the 4 hp. If you need the additional 2 hp just buy the 6 hp carburetor and bolt it in place of the one that comes on the 4. The 4 hp Tohatsu is a 6 hp engine with a restricted carb on it.


Does that mean I could have the 5 or 6 hp with an internal tank by swapping out the carb? or does the larger carb use the space where the tank is? Thanks


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## mstern

I use an 8 hp on my Oday 23 (which is heavier than your boat (over 3000 lbs.). It is more than adequate. I'm no expert, but I haven't seen an outboard larger than 4 hp with an internal tank, and 4 hp is definitely too small, especially if you have to deal with currents. 

For shaft length, 15" is standard; 20" is what is considered a "long shaft". Some manufacturers also offer 25" models. If you can, go for the extra length. The first time you are in any sort of seaway, you will appreciate it.

Also keep in mind that if you buy a new engine, you no longer have a choice of two vs. four stroke engines; they haven't made new small two stroke engines for a few years now. This is good for the environment and your fuel consumption, but also means that you need to make sure your outboard bracket can handle a four stroke engine. There are two reasons you need a stronger bracket: fours weigh more than their hp equivalent twos; and fours generate more torque. There have been a number of threads here debating whether you really need a bracket rated for a four stroke. A number of posters have questioned the need for a four stroke bracket if they (for example) have a 8 hp four stroke engine to be put on a bracket rated to handle a 20 hp two stroke. The 8 hp four stroke weights a lot less than a 20 hp two stroke, but how much of that is offset by the increase in torque? I have no idea. 

The practical implications of replacing a two stroke bracket with a four stroke can be considerable. The new bracket might require drilling thru the transom, adding support on the inside of the transom, replacing or augmenting the "spacer" block (that angled hunk of fiberglass between the bracket and transom), etc. Nothing insurmountable, just enough of a pain to make one look for every reason to keep the existing set up.


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## snider

*Sailing!*

If I'm in enough wind to make a seaway I'll be sailing 

Seriously, I've thought that it would be nice to take enough fuel and have an extra long shaft so if I'm offshore and there is a swell without wind, I can motor home. Realistically though I've never had that problem. Generally if there isn''t enough wind to get you back there isn't enough wind to get you there in the first place. 

I have turned around because I felt like the wind was dying, and I didn't have a motor if it did. I really wouldn't want to anchor in a busy rolling inlet.

Also it would be nice to have something to get me out of the way of all the huge ship traffic in Charleston, that and something for around the dock is why I'm leaning towards the 4hp. It'll probably be a few weeks before I get something so keep the opinions coming and I'll let you know how it turns out.


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## TohatsuGuru

Snider,

Yes, buying the 4 with the internal tank and then putting the 6 hp carb on will give you a 6 with the internal tank....Or you might wait a week and see what new model engine gets released for the 2010 model year There is a six with internal tank that is coming out....But, I think it will only be in the 25" leg model. You can look on our website after August 1st to see when they will be released.


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## snider

*Thanks*

I was looking at your site before you chimed in here and was more than likely going to order through you guys anyway 

Whats your opnion on length shaft and size for what I'm looking for? Still say 4hp 20"? Thanks Brandon

Edit: Forget I aked that, just found the long thread over in gear and maint. on Tohatsu. I'll make my own choice  any words of wisdom though would be nice.


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## snider

*Weight*

I guess all I'm saving by getting the 4 over the 6 is some money, especially if a 6 with a internal tank is coming out. The only way to go lighter would be the 3.5. So I guess the 6hp extra long shaft internal tank model would be the wise choice. Unless the weight goes up due to the tank. Hmmmm this is getting interesting.


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## TohatsuGuru

The weight goes up two lbs on the internal tank model or will once they release it. Discusions about shaft length usually end up with agreement that people get by with a 20", but a 25" leg makes it an all weather outboard.


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## snider

*Prop*

Nice. I have the same boat as that other fellow with the long outboard thread. I think that new model will serve my purpose perfectly. If I look you guys up online can you set me up from the start with the prop you suggested for my boat? Thanks Brandon


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## roline

I hava a 95 Johnson 3.3 hp 2 stroke( painted black and sold at mercury also) 28lbs internal tank on a Santana525, 2400lbs. It will cruise at 5.3 knots wide open. going through the calculations, to go hull speed, I would need 5hp. There are advantages / disadvantages to an internal tank, convienient until it runs out, smaller volume than an external tank. Just shy of 1/2 gallon, I can get 45 minutes on a full tank. My priority was weight, wanting to keep under 30lbs if possible


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## dabnis

Snider,

I had a Coronado 25 which weighed about 4,000 lbs, IIRC, sailed out of Sausalito on San Francisco Bay for many years. Started out with a 6hp Evinrude 2 stroke which was marginal for beating through the steep rough chop and fast currents both inside and outside the bay. Went to a 15 hp, which was the same weight as the 9.9, and it really did the job. The Coronado had a well so had no problem with the long shaft motor coming out of the water. I would suggest you get the strongest motor with the longest shaft you can fit on the transom. Electric start with a charging feature would complete the package.

FWIW, Dabnis


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## TohatsuGuru

The 6 hp 25" comes with the pig prop now directly from the factory.


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## retclt

Most agree on one thing . . . 25" for sure. I've seen Charleston Harbor get pretty rolly . . . especially where the Cooper comes out. Tohatsu is a good motor but wouldn't want to be limited to a half hour of fuel. Get and external and explore a little more of the area.


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## snider

*Doesn't anyone sail!!*



retclt said:


> Tohatsu is a good motor but wouldn't want to be limited to a half hour of fuel. Get and external and explore a little more of the area.


I do my exploring under sail! Ha Ha. Seriously I really sail all the time. I hope Thats what I enjoy most, working up into tight places under sail alone. I use to not have the option of a motoring and I hope I don't motor more just because I have it. Motoring takes a lot of fun out of it for me. Sure I've had to go to alternate anchorages and ran aground a few times but it's the challenge I like. I'll Probably carry an extrnal tank if I'm going to be overnighting or if I have to work the next day, but I really just need the motor as a back-up and if I *have* to get back and can't tack against the current. My slip is really easy to get into and out of, I could easily sail into it. It's not a T-head, I'm on the inside of all the T-heads on a long dock.

I;'m not discounting the fact that one day I may be in a real slip, thats one reason I want the motor. Docking with a crosswind and a ripping current can be a pain.

So far I think I'm leaning toward the 25" 6hp internal tank model that's about to come out. I appreciate the input. Brandon


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## TohatsuGuru

Run time on the 4 hp with the integral tank is 45 minutes at WOT and about 2 hours at 1/4 throttle.


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## TohatsuGuru

Quick update on the integral 6....Not going to be released until at least January, probably even later. Not sure why. If I can find out I'll post the result.


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## casioqv

On my Catalina 22 I have a Motor Guide 82lb thrust 24v electric trolling motor along with 2 115aH batteries. It moves the boat at about 3.5 knots, and will run almost all day long (haven't ran it empty yet).

I love that it's totally silent, the motor is light weight, no danger or cost of gasoline, and the fuel (batteries) can be located near the keel as extra ballast, which improves sailing performance unlike a huge motor and fuel tank hanging off the stern.

For me, the motor is just a backup and is used for docking and loading onto the trailer. People sailed all around the world before motors were invented, and they're not a necessary item on a sailboat IMO.


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## snider

*Yea!!!*



casioqv said:


> For me, the motor is just a backup and is used for docking and loading onto the trailer. People sailed all around the world before motors were invented, and they're not a necessary item on a sailboat IMO.


FINALLY Someone who understands!


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## snider

*Hmph!!*



TohatsuGuru said:


> Quick update on the integral 6....Not going to be released until at least January, probably even later. Not sure why. If I can find out I'll post the result.


Well that stinks!! Wish I could find a 2 stroke around 3.5-5hp. Something under 35lbs would be sweet!!! I got the 9.9 Nissan running. Just needed some fresh fuel. That thing is heavy!! Right were you don't want extra weight. In the ends of the boat.


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## snider

*Fair price for 9.9?*

Well I'm going to sell the 9.9 Nissan. Anybody have any idea what a fair price would be? I'm not sure what year it is. Probably 1987. It started fine.

As I'm laying in bed thinking about this whole engine thing the thought crossed my mine to just go sans engine again. My marina really frowns upon sailing up to the dock though, and with the predominate wind from the SE here it puts me on a lee shore with a couple tacks through an anchorage. I did it fine on my 19 footer, as I havn't had this boat out yet I'm not sure what she'll sail like. Thats the reason i was getting a motor in the first place, it would be a little easier getting off the dock. I may try sailing out a few times before I sell the motor and see how it goes. As for docking under sail I could always anchor just off the dock and warp in. I've done that before when I had a really tight spot to go into. My slip isn't a t-head. I'm on the inside of a very long dock with a good bit of room fore and aft. The t-heads are on the otherside. This is why I want the smallest lightest thing I can get. If I do buy a 4 stroke I'd like to get that 6hp with the internal tank.


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## mstern

snider said:


> Well I'm going to sell the 9.9 Nissan. Anybody have any idea what a fair price would be?
> 
> If I do buy a 4 stroke I'd like to get that 6hp with the internal tank.


I sold a 1987 9.9 Johnson long shaft electric start at my garage sale for I think $65. Ran ok, but not great (which is why I replaced it). Probably about half of what i could have gotten for it if I had been willing to put an ad in the Bargain News or on line, but I wasn't up for the phone calls and appointment no-shows.

If you buy a new engine, it will be a four stroke. No one makes small two strokes anymore. I understand why you want the smallest, lightest engine you can find; but I am curious: what is the attraction for you of the internal tank? I thought the internal tank models were designed for those applications where there was limited room in the vessel for an external tank. Your boat is certainly not one of those, so I was wondering why you have a preference for the internal tank.


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## snider

*Space!*

The last owner had a 6 gallon tank in the starboard side cockpit locker with a male to male nipple through the aft end of the locker. I'm not a big fan of having a gas tank in a closed locker with a small vent in the stern. The boat has been setup like this for 22 years just fine so I don't know why I'm worried. Just doesn't strike me as safe, even if its a 1 in a million chance for a fire or explosion. My friend just lost a brand new car from putting a gas tank in the trunk of his car. He was getting gas for his lawn mower, didn't have the vent closed. The tank ignited and his car burned down. So that puts the external tank in the aft area of the cockpit. A little 3 gal tank doesn't take up much room and I'm sure I could fab something nice to hold it in place. I think this is what Beneteau had in mind because there is a raised area with nonskid.

So 75% of the time I'll only need the motor to get in and out of the slip, why be stuck with an external tank 100% of the time when I only need it 25% of the time? When I want to overnight or want a little more fuel I'll put the external tank in. It just gives me more flexibillty.


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## mstern

I get it. On my Oday 23, the fuel tank locker is under a cockpit seat at the rear of the starboard side. It is a completely separate unit, and is not vented into the bilge or cabin (like some Catalina 22's). In fact, the only vent for the fuel tank locker is the exit hole for the fuel line (which is on the inboard side of the cockpit). 

The locker is sized perfectly for one of the old-style steel 6 gallon fuel tanks. When I bought my new engine (Nissan 8 hp two stroke, long shaft electric start) in 2002, it came with a poly three gallon tank and fuel line. Rather than wrestle with the fittings to put the Nissan fittings on my old fuel line (or put the Johnson fittings on the new fuel line), I just swapped out the old tank and line completely (the vent and fuel gauage were busted anyway). I thought that at some point I would buy a new 6 gallon tank, but the steel tanks are ridiculously expensive, and the new poly tanks look like they will be about a half inch too big to fit in the locker. I haven't gotten around to seeing if a new 6 gallon tank will fit; I've been making due with the three gallon tank. Its not a major pain, but I find the tank to be too small. I have to fill it about three times a season, as opposed to the 6 gallon tank, which I sometimes could make last all summer, but at worst only needed to be filled twice.

How big is the internal fuel tank on the outboard you are considering?


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## snider

*Not very much*

.34 Gal. Its suppose to get almost an hour at full throttle. It's probably good to need to fill up more often. Old gas can cause problems and three times a season isn't much. Where do you sail your O-day? The first keel boat I raced on was an O-day 30.


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## scottyt

i give ya a 100 bucks for the motor you deliver to maryland 

seriously see if you can get it shipped for a reasonable price to zip 21224, i might buy it if shipping is cheap enough


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## mstern

snider said:


> .34 Gal. Its suppose to get almost an hour at full throttle. It's probably good to need to fill up more often. Old gas can cause problems and three times a season isn't much. Where do you sail your O-day? The first keel boat I raced on was an O-day 30.


Out of Branford, Conn on Long Island Sound. A good friend of mine has the Oday 30. Nice boat. As far as "old gas" goes, I've never had a problem. I use a fuel stabilizer (Sta-bil is the one I have now I think) every time I mix up a tank, and I have had no problems with gas that is a year old.


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## snider

*Heard anything?*



TohatsuGuru said:


> Quick update on the integral 6....Not going to be released until at least January, probably even later. Not sure why. If I can find out I'll post the result.


Have you heard anything? I think I'm going to go with the 6hp internal tank 25" shaft,,,whew thats a mouth full. You think it'll come out in Jan?

Unless I find a pretty new 2 strike that weighs around 40lbs. Thanks


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