# Do marina liveaboards dump their [email protected]!^ in the river?



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

OK, so it's time to ask a question that I've often wondered about.

Our marina has several year-round liveaboards - a few on sailboats, and a couple more on motorboats. These boats NEVER leave the marina. Based on the appearance of the boats, they may not be able to go anywhere.

The people on these boats range from almost-homeless to normal, working guys trying to live a minimalist lifestyle. The normal guys are nice people, and they help the security of the marina because they're always around.

I would never ask this question to their faces, because I don't want to stir up trouble, but I do wonder what these guys do with their holding tanks. Our marina's pumpout is at the gas dock (can't come to your slip), and it rarely works anyway due to improper installation (always loses its prime because the pump is 150' away from the end of the hose).

I just suspect that these guys open their T-valves when the river current is ripping through.

So what do you think? Do any of you have liveaboards that never leave the marina? What do you suspect that they do?


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

That's illegal. You are making an unfounded assumption if you haven't done your homework thoroughly.

Do they have Electrasans?

In our club we do have a portable pump out but mot of the 10 liveaboards have Electrasans. In some areas they are not omitted either.

Also a compostable head would not require a pumpout.


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## ScuzzMonkey (Jun 26, 2006)

I guess it's not impossible, but I've been living aboard for about four years now in a couple of different marinas and have never heard anyone say they did, or caught anyone at it. The active fleet of mobile pump-out services around here would also seem to indicate compliance... I mean, why pay for the service and still dump overboard?

Also, at least where we are right now, it seems like most folks, most of the time, use the shore-side restrooms. That would reduce the rate at which their tanks are being used, anyway.

Finally, although it clearly doesn't make it right, even if some of them are doing it, whatever they are, uh, contributing, pales in comparison to the various sewage overflows the city dumps into lakes and the Sound during the winter storm overflows.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Just having this discussion about a neighboring marina that allows year round liveaboards. Ours doesn't. Once the marina is winterized, we were wondering what they do. No pump out even available. Possible they have composters, but I somehow doubt it. We weren't even 100% sure that shoreside facilities were functional in freezing temps.

I make no bones about objecting to ridiculous discharge laws that just make tree huggers feel good about themselves. However, discharging in a confined harbor is just stupid and inconsiderate.


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## oceangirl (Sep 17, 2008)

In clear lake Texas, yes, a lot.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

Our local A&E paper recently had an article about year-round liveaboards. Now, this is Minnesota so we're talking -20ºF in the winter.

-------
On a boat, toilets don't flush the way they do in a condo. Instead, every few weeks, residents hook up a hose to their sewage tanks to "pump out." And one balmy November, someone on the dock forgot to drain the pump when he was done. The next person who went to use it found it frozen.

"We put propane heaters around it, we did everything we could," says Cherveny. "But nothing worked."

Until a brief February warm spot two months later, no one could use the bathroom in their house, and a line of live-aboards ran down the block to the Holiday first thing every morning.
-------

The Real Houseboats of the Mississippi - - News - Minneapolis - City Pages

These are all powerboats of course. And I bet a few don't even have power....


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

While in the marina, I use the marina facilities. Not as convenient, but still more convenient than going to the pump out. What doesn't go in the holding tank doesn't have to come out of the holding tank.


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## wingNwing (Apr 28, 2008)

Up here in wintertime the mobile pumpout cart doesn't operate, and its not like you can motor your boat to the pumpout slip by the gas dock because the river is iced in. That's when the old fashioned bag and bucket technique comes into play (not for the squeamish!) 

OTOH, we have at least one liveaboard here who never seems to use the pumpout cart in summertime, and her boat doesn't move under its own power. Given her lack of consideration for her neighbors in other ways, such as clutter on the docks, I suspect I know where her waste goes, all I can say is I'm glad we're upstream...


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

Minnewaska said:


> I make no bones about objecting to ridiculous discharge laws that just make tree huggers feel good about themselves. However, discharging in a confined harbor is just stupid and inconsiderate.


Like the rules or hate them, I am glad for them. Having lived on the water since I was an infant (father was navy) I can remember when marinas all smelled like cesspools.

That said, friends of mine lived aboard their 33' Owens all summer until I was about 1990. Their boat had no working engines and no holding tanks. Yes, they pumped right over the side and never got caught


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

The discussion isn't really about he laws..that would drift the thread.

For those who live aboard here we have winter water when the snow hits. These water lines are kept in the water and can be fished out to provide filll ups for the live aboards.

Also our portable pumpout, which was partially state funded rolls easily down the dock and holds 100 gallons. So there is no excuses to empty your waste into the public water . Our liveaboards are required to either have Electrasans, composting heads, or provide proof through the portable pumpout, they are using it. 

Failure to comply with any of these gets them booted out, and we monitor this.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

mad_machine said:


> Like the rules or hate them, I am glad for them. Having lived on the water since I was an infant (father was navy) I can remember when marinas all smelled like cesspools.....


I'm glad for some of them and prohibiting discharge in or near marinas just makes all the sense in the world.

It's the prohibition until 3 miles offshore, which is simply the limit of the States rights to Federal waterways, is ridiculous. No science, it's politics. Ironically, there have actually been fish kills due to insufficient nutrients. Gross but true. It should all be in balance, not extremes. No large ships dumping makes sense, the environment can't handle the concentration. A recreational boater discharging 10 gallons near the mouth of the Bay will be dilluted beyond relevance within seconds. Sea life itself discharges vastly more than we do, and yes, you swim in it now.

If one really cares, then pay the freight to upgrade all the municipal treatment plants. They have a long way to go, but the limited progress they have made is as likely to have improved the cesspool as boater restrictions.


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## oceangirl (Sep 17, 2008)

I don't think you can just rule out liveaboards, weekenders are pumping overboard too.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> I'm glad for some of them and prohibiting discharge in or near marinas just makes all the sense in the world.
> 
> It's the prohibition until 3 miles offshore, which is simply the limit of the States rights to Federal waterways, is ridiculous. No science, it's politics. Ironically, there have actually been fish kills due to insufficient nutrients. Gross but true. It should all be in balance, not extremes. No large ships dumping makes sense, the environment can't handle the concentration. A recreational boater discharging 10 gallons near the mouth of the Bay will be dilluted beyond relevance within seconds. Sea life itself discharges vastly more than we do, and yes, you swim in it now.


Yeah, it's pretty ironic how quickly concern over this issue vanishes, the closer one gets to _Paradise_... 

There's not a pumpout within a couple of hundred miles of Georgetown, and of those boats that park themselves there for months on end, NOBODY is sailing out of Elizabeth Harbor and a few miles out into Exuma Sound, for the express purpose of dumping their holding tanks...


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

To respond specifically to TF's question about what may be happening in HIS marina, I posit the following hypothesis:

The broken down boats with um...mentally questionable residents are most likely (but not 100% certainly) dumping/pumping overboard.

The boats with regular joe's are less likely, but may be pumping overboard. If they are, they are probably doing it infrequently, just until they can get to a pumpout, or have a "honey dipper" boat visit them.

Speaking as someone who lived aboard for around 6 months last year, I have a 5 gallon holding tank. Just enough for weekending, basically. I _never_ pumped solid material overboard. Not once. I did however, make occasional, liquid deposits off of the finger dock, at night, when I was certain no one was watching. I know that many of the single males followed this practice.

The bath house was at the end of my dock, and my marina was small. I believe that this convenience helped keep fecal matter out of the water.

My sinks drain overboard, so I definitely discharged grey water from dish washing. I used no/low phosphate soaps in an attempt to be environmentally friendly.

Hope that helps answer your question.


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

I think the boater party line is always going to be, "No one would ever do that."


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Even in the confines of Chesapeake Bay, the contribution of human waste from recreational boaters during the summer months is akin to a speck of fly $hit in a mountain of pepper. It's purely political and always has been. Also, you must keep in mind that that waters of Chesapeake and Delaware bays look the same during the dead of winter. Gee, kinda makes you wonder where all that crap is coming from, doesn't it?

The two places that I can truly say have benefited from holding tank laws are Boot Key Harbor in the lower Florida Keys, and Solomons Island Harbor in the lower Patuxent River in Maryland. As Solomons Harbor increased in popularity back in the early 1980s, huge number of sailboats began spending more and more time on the hook there, and nearly all were dumping the tanks at night. By morning the odoriferous waft from the harbor became horrendous. It only took a couple weeks of strict enforcement to eliminate the stench and the harbor returned to it's prior, retched water state within a couple months.

In Marathon's Book Key Harbor, where boats are stacked up like cordwood during the winter months, the pristine, turquoise waters eventually turned slate gray, the turtle grass began to die, lobsters disappeared, fishing went to Hell, and the water smelled just awful. The city took over the marina, two large pumpout boats went into full-time operation, and every boat in the harbor was pumped out on a weekly basis. Enforcement of Y-valve regulations became very strict, and two years later the harbor, while not fully recovered, looks pretty darned good. Underwater visibility at the City Dock was about 6-feet when I left there last March.

Unfortunately, the unabated discharges by outdated municipal wastewater treatment plants, agricultural and industrial discharges and other lesser sources, has severely effected our oceans, and has been for decades. It's the out of sight - out of mind mentality that people in general have, and politicians thrive upon, that created this problem in the first place. It's the "If we can't see it, feel it, or smell it, then it doesn't exist" at least in their minds. Therefore, it's not a problem. Doesn't anyone ever wonder who the idiot was that first dreamed up wastewater treatment plants got into his mind that if we put this stuff in the water it won't hurt anything. I'm not just talking about human waste, I mean anything.

For years Dupont was allowed to dump their chemical wastes offshore and did so just 12 miles out from the mouth of Delaware Bay. At least two major municipalities on the east coast hauled their trash offshore on strings of barges and bulldozed it overboard. Why do you think all that medical waste, syringes, etc..., washed up on the Jersey Shore for decades. At first the feds tried to blame the syringes on junkies tossing their syringes into the rivers, but that was never the case. Junkies don't dispose of syringes - they use them until they're no longer useable. 

When will people learn that you cannot continue to dump crap in the water, water that they drink, obtain food from and use recreationally? As far as most people are concerned, they totally believe everything in the world is disposable. Cellular phones, TVs, microwave ovens, cars, trucks, busses, diapers, paper, you name it - even boats. I guess that's why some folks now think it's perfectly acceptable to consume what is referred to as "recycled water." Think about that the next time you turn on the spigot supplying your drinking water.

Gary


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## minnow1193 (Dec 20, 2011)

I like Gary! Well said sir.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"When will people learn that "
But Gary, if folks have been ignoring that for five or ten thousand years, why would anyone maintain the delusion that will change now? Cholera has been around for ages, ditto many other diseases from passing things around. In the US alone, the CDC estimates over a quarter of a million cases of totally avoidable food poisoning go to hospitals every year. A quarter of a million simple sanitary failures, and people are perfectly willing to accept that as normal. 
So why expect some broke-ass marginal folks to change?

Which is why other folks pass laws, put red dye in tanks, issue fines and seize boats and ban liveaboards.

Of course, the truly polite folks simply chlorinate the entire harbor, as the Brits do in Georgetown. Quietly, late at night, at the same time that they come around to collect shoes that need polishing, or when they drop off the morning newspapers.

What, you keep a boat in some (ugh) slum where they don't do that?


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## kd3pc (Oct 19, 2006)

oceangirl said:


> I don't think you can just rule out liveaboards, weekenders are pumping overboard too.


IN many parts of VA, those pumpouts just move it from spot a (the boat) to spot b (the marina septic system, or worse the sewage line).

Spot B is where the major stuff is coming from. MD and VA each pumps tens of thousands of gallons of stuff directly in to the bay, each and every day and that is the "normal" operation....when something fails....that number jumps to hundreds of thousands of gallons.

I ran some numbers way back, about how IF every boat that is registered in DC/MD/VA, regardless of length, location, use, etc - was assumed to have a 15 gallon holding tank, said tank was full, and said boat was sitting on the bay AND they all dumped their load at the same time, it would not be any worse than the sewage treatment plants going in to overload and "spilling" the overload during one sunday football game, which Baltimore and DC do on a regular basis. As well as some of the landlocked cities further upstream, that have been known to have major infrastructure issues, if they have any infrastructure left at all...

While the gross factor is there, think about the bottom feeder critters who thrive on that stuff. If you understand what crab, catfish and shrimp actually eat....

Well you get the picture. Politicians want the common people to blame those "rich boaters" for the pollution, as it draws attention from the real cause.

Real Cause:
runoff from those mega malls and parking lots
runoff from AG activity (perdue, etc)
sewage treatment activity, deliberate and leaks

YMMV


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

kd3pc said:


> IN many parts of VA, those pumpouts just move it from spot a (the boat) to spot b (the marina septic system, or worse the sewage line).
> 
> Spot B is where the major stuff is coming from. MD and VA each pumps tens of thousands of gallons of stuff directly in to the bay, each and every day and that is the "normal" operation....when something fails....that number jumps to hundreds of thousands of gallons.
> 
> ...


Great argument. Filter feeder like you mentioned when they "dine" off of sewerage often are responsibilbe for hepititus and other diseases and infections in polluted beds.

What relevance is it to blame large polluters for the justification to allow small polluters to do the same. There is no justification for either to do it period. Every animal in the animal kindom knows you dont S&&T where you eat.

Are you condoning dumping your tanks then?

You are either part of the solution ( and every small bit helps) or you contribute to the problem.


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

I agree with Chef here.. every little bit we can do to keep the waters clean helps.


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

I use the shoreside bathrooms. Less expensive head repairs that way! On board is typically emergency only.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Thanks for all the comments. Interesting discussion.

I do know what the laws are in the US, and my OP is suggesting that some of our liveaboards are breaking those laws. Although I did not intend this to turn into a debate into the value of those laws, I guess it was inevitable.

Also, FWIW, the boats in my marina would not stink up the harbor by dumping their stuff. We are right in the Delaware River, not in a stagnant cove, and we have 2-3 knot tidal currents running through 24/7. That's not to say that it's right to dump your stuff illegally, but it's not the kind of nuisance that it might be in other marinas.

I do roll my eyes, however, at those who rant over the huge municipal and commercial sources of nutrients and then claim boats should be unregulated because they're such a small contributor. I believe that you can't regulate one without the regulating other, even if only for symbolism. It seems that we've crapped all over our whole planet by arguing that "what I'm dumping is such a small fraction of the whole thing." That's a dangerous attitude.


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## mark2gmtrans (May 14, 2013)

In answer to the problems of fecal waste in the sea, the Federal Ecological Contaminant Emission System ( FECES ) has declared that all marine animals with a mass of more than 1 KG shall have at all times an accepted and approved fecal containment system in place. This containment system, or DIAPER, must be made of biodegradable materials, be made from at least 70% recycled materials, and disposed of properly.

Any marine life forms not conforming to the new FECES containment system protocols will be fined not less than $100,000.00 USD for each occurrence of discharge of contaminants. 

The obama administration estimates that the government will soon balance the budget with FECES proceeds.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

Our marina requires live aboards to prove at least quarterly pumpouts or that they have no MSD. 

The discussion of dumping vs pumping doesn't make sense in this thread. Does anyone think that dumping in a marina with limited water flow us a good idea?


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## mark2gmtrans (May 14, 2013)

I am sure that no one thinks dumping in the closed marina area is a good idea. I am with several others a little bit confused at why in the world it makes a bit of difference when offshore, or outside a closed marina. Poop is poop, mine or a fishes, and my poop is not somehow more toxic in the environment than a fishes. Some of the tree hugger nutjobs think that humans are an invasive species wherever they go, they claim we are always in some other creature's environment, I want to know where the heck mine is? I can't poop, I can't eat, I can't build my nest, or do anything else without having some goofball tree hugger tell me I am invading, killing, or somehow harming the freaking planet, well humans are from this planet, this is where our environment is, and my poop is not more toxic than a polar bears poop.

Now I do not want to have my turds floating around the marina, or yours, but about the time I get 1/4 mile out from a closed small area I just do not see how mine is any worse than the freaking dolphins, sharks, whales, polar bears, or whatever other critters are pooping in the water. We need to be clean, but we need to get our heads on straight, and not be ridiculous about the laws we allow to be imposed on us by idiots who think all humans are scum, and should be eliminated from the planet so the animals would have it all to themselves. (trust me there are nuts who think that way).


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

Are there any jobs at this FECES organization? I'm sure I've got all the qualifications in pumping, dumping and holding to satisfy any requirements.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

There are 8 million threads with that discussion, no reason to dilute this thread with it. 

We are also not going to change the laws by debating it here.


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## MikeGuyver (Dec 13, 2008)

OK, good personal hygiene is what we all should consider. Dumping your sewage in your marina just plain isn't sanitary. Certain personality types cover their laziness and indifference with excuses like those mentioned.
I guess I'd have to say "get off your lazy ass and motor over to the pump out and do your adult duty " no excuses for being knowingly filthy. GROW UP
Besides knowing one of the worst things you can do to your engine is let it set for long periods, fire up and run it now and then. We live aboard and use our head on a regular basis. We pump out every 10-14 days and use the event to keep the boat in good working order.


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## mark2gmtrans (May 14, 2013)

aeventyr60 said:


> Are there any jobs at this FECES organization? I'm sure I've got all the qualifications in pumping, dumping and holding to satisfy any requirements.


Oh Lord, it is just toooo easy...

Uhm yes, I am sure that obama has a place in FECES for you.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

mark2gmtrans said:


> Oh Lord, it is just toooo easy...
> 
> Uhm yes, I am sure that obama has a place in FECES for you.


Perfect!

Usually in the FECES anyway. Getting paid for it? Priceless.


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## mark2gmtrans (May 14, 2013)

aeventyr60 said:


> Perfect!
> 
> Usually in the FECES anyway. Getting paid for it? Priceless.


I am not sure it would pay much, sequestration and what have you, but I am sure you could carry your work home with you...

I believe they are looking for whale DIAPER compliance officers for the regions near the Alaskan coast. Do you have a dry suit with heat?


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## oceangirl (Sep 17, 2008)

Alex W said:


> Our marina requires live aboards to prove at least quarterly pumpouts or that they have no MSD.


This is fantastic, I wish our marinas would come up with similar plan.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

oceangirl said:


> This is fantastic, I wish our marinas would come up with similar plan.


The last marina i was in Seattle had a mobile pump out service called Mr. Head. reasonably priced so everyone used it. Had to show your service contract to the marina. Think there is a ton of money in FECES.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

I have surveyed 2,906 boats, mostly here on Lake Ontario. Being a liveaboard for 16years I got tired of being accused of dumping overboard. I searched all 2,906 survey reports and found the following regarding boats 30" LOA and larger in Lake Ontario (I chose 30' because all liveaboards I know are bigger than that) .....

60% of sailboats surveyed are configured with operable overboard discharge systems.
8% of powerboats surveyed are configured with operable overboard discharge systems.
5% of all liveaboards surveyed are configured with operable overboard discharge systems.
Note : Percentages are rounded down to whole numbers.

Total sailboats surveyed - 1,591
Total powerboats surveyed - 1,315
Total liveaboards (power & sail included in above numbers) - 60


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## chuck53 (Oct 13, 2009)

Every live-a-board is different. Some have lectrasans they can legally pump overboard. Some only use onsite restrooms and never need to pump. Some only use the head for liquid waste and the restroom for solid waste and yes, they are illegally pumping, but, at least, no crap goes in the water. Some really don't care and pump everything overboard.


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## Coquina (Dec 27, 2012)

While the BOATS anchored in the Corsica River presumably had legal MSDs, the TOWN had plumbed the new developement AROUND the treatment plant and dumped more raw sh## into the river than every boat on the river ever did in all the centuries boats have been used there by FAR uke

As for marina-dumpers, my marina is basically a dug-out basin with one narrow exit. We used to have one dumper and the smell would linger for days 

Is there ANY other place besides the USA that cares about holding tanks? IIRC the boaters in Vancouver were a bit upset that Canada looked to be getting on the holding tank badwagon. Vancouver would be collecting boat sewage and then dumping it in the ocean untreated like all their other sewage.


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## blowinstink (Sep 3, 2007)

You have one guy in your marina (OP) who runs his boat AC by pumping fresh water from the hose on the dock through his AC cooling unit because he is too cheap to by a new pump. I am sure he makes up for putting fresh water in the river by crapping in it as well. Generally speaking I think people are pretty considerate -- but you just do the math: they don't have pump out facilities, the baths are unimaginably foul and no one seems to be using them . . ..


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## blowinstink (Sep 3, 2007)

Where I am currently, they do weekly pump outs at your slip for $5 (automatic for live-aboards) free at the fuel dock. Great policy.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

mark2gmtrans said:


> Oh Lord, it is just toooo easy...
> 
> Uhm yes, I am sure that obama has a place in FECES for you.


This is not the forum for partisan political commentary. Please abstain from making them Feel free to make them in the appropriate place where others will be willing to answer your views.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

The LI Sound towns and north have much better programs than the Chessie. They make it easy to pump out/


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## Jiminri (Aug 26, 2012)

chef2sail said:


> The LI Sound towns and north have much better programs than the Chessie. They make it easy to pump out/


The West and Rhode Riverkeeper runs a pumpout boat April-October, Friday-Monday. Hail the captain of the Honey Dipper and he comes to your boat at anchor, on a mooring, or in a slip. $5 per pumpout or pay $50 per season for unlimited pumpouts. Can't get more convenient than that. Wish it was available in more places.


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

I wouldn't worry about it. It seems minuscule. Don't alot of cities just pump raw sewage and other stuff straight into the water? What is a couple liveaboards going to do? I mean. You're downriver from Philadelphia, Trenton and Camden. I doubt the water is sparkling. It would probably kill you to fall overboard, that liveaboards turd floating by is just the icing on the cake. I would bet money that 90% of liveaboards just dump and pump, and 50% of everyone else. I was in the marina in Honolulu for a while and I don't think they even have a pump out station. 

People in Canada told me most places you are expected to dump it over the side. 

If you're in a marina and still using your boat's toilet you're pretty disgusting.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

blowinstink said:


> You have one guy in your marina (OP) who runs his boat AC by pumping fresh water from the hose on the dock through his AC cooling unit because he is too cheap to by a new pump. I am sure he makes up for putting fresh water in the river by crapping in it as well. Generally speaking I think people are pretty considerate -- but you just do the math: they don't have pump out facilities, the baths are unimaginably foul and no one seems to be using them . . ..


[hijack]IIRC, you've stayed at our marina before, so you may know that guy from when you were there. However, he was kicked out almost three years ago, for a whole range of incidents, but mostly because he let his dog run free on the docks, and he would crap on them - even worse than dumping your stuff in the river! The last straw was when a boat owner saw the dog crap on his finger pier and asked this guy's girlfriend to clean it up. She gave him a bunch of lip, and the marina manager kicked the guy out the next day.

By the way, the trick where he ran city water into his AC was not because of a pump problem. The river water that summer got up into the mid-80s, so his reverse cycle system could not keep up with the heat. The city water was much cooler, so his AC worked.

Two years ago this guy moved into Ulladh's marina, and got kicked out there too, presumably for the same type of stuff, although Ulladh doesn't know exactly what happened.

Last year he was the only boat at Harbor Pointe Marina (home of "The Deck"), a place so dilapidated (after Sandy struck in 2011) that its electricity was not functioning all season. He must have been pretty desperate to stay there (i.e., nobody else would take him).

This year he's been on the hard at Harbor Pointe. Depending on who you talk to, it's one of three reasons: 1) Harbor Point's marina is totally shut down, and he can't find anyone else to accept him because he has burned too many bridges, 2) Harbor Point's sling lift is broken down and can't splash anybody (apparently some people had to hire a 3rd party crane - at great expense - to come in and spash their boats), 3) He's in a dispute with the yard over what he owes, and they're refusing to move him until he pays up.

I actually feel bad for him, because he's a real personable guy who will look out for your boat as long as you don't hassle him. But he's a real wheeler-dealer, so you have to be careful with him.

The overall moral of this story is to keep karma on your side. If you piss off too many marinas you may run out of options. So don't dump your (or your dog's) crap in the marina. And don't shack up with a smarta$$ girlfriend, since she was a large part of his problem. He used to have the name of her and her son on the side of his boat, but their names are gone now, so apparently she's gone.
[/hijack]


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

northoceanbeach said:


> I wouldn't worry about it. It seems minuscule. Don't alot of cities just pump raw sewage and other stuff straight into the water?...


No. In the US, raw discharge of sewage was eliminated by 1996. Municipal sewage systems have been continuously upgraded, so that significant organic removal occurs from all treated sewage prior to discharge.

I know there are people here who want to believe that this is not true. They will claim that every time it rains the sewer systems overflow and dump raw sewage into our rivers and streams. But short of a massive floods like Katrina or Irene, this is not true. Storm runoff and sanitary sewage have been carried by separate systems for many decades, with only slight leakage between the two. Yes, a very heavy rain will cause agricultural runoff, but this idea that cities intentionally dump massive amounts of raw sewage into our streams is just delusional thinking by those who want to make excuses for dumping their own raw sewage off their boats.

For more info, check out EPA's info on the Clean Water Act.


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

Not true. When I lived in Honolulu there was a flood, not near Katrina and they dumped sewage down the ala wai and all over Waikiki beaches. 

I also just looked up portland Oregon and they only put their new sewers in place in 2011. Up until then there got 50 dumps a year totaling an average of 6 billion gallons of raw sewage in the willamette river. Still they dump 3-4 times a year in the millions of gallons. 

Here's the first thing I found for your area. 

#Don't believe the signs city officials have posted at the four outfall spots that dump raw sewage into the Potomac River. The truth is much worse.
#The signs say rainfalls that are "heavy" or "long" will result in raw sewage overflowing from the city's treatment plant directly into the river. But a new permit application to state officials paints a different picture. According to information submitted to the Virginia Department of Environmental Quality, one of the outfalls is triggered with as much as 0.03 inches of rain.
#"The system cannot carry anything more than a slight drizzle," said Bill Skrabak, deputy director of the Department of Transportation and Environmental Services.
#City officials are in the midst of applying for a permit to allow Alexandria to continue dumping raw sewage into the Hunting Creek while a Long Term Control Plan is created. A draft permit now under consideration kicks the can down the road until 2032. But critics say the city has been dumping its human waste into the river too long, and that the time for action is now. They say city officials should take action now before the Environmental Protection Agency forces Alexandria to take action, as it has already done in the District of Columbia and a number of other cities.

I'm sure it goes on an on for most cities.


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

Here's from philly's own website

The combined sewer system covers almost two-thirds of the sewer service area in Philadelphia.



Overview
Serving more than three-quarters of the city's residents, the combined sewer system is in the oldest and densest parts of the city, including Center City, South Philadelphia, West Philadelphia, North Philadelphia, Bridesburg/Kensington/Richmond, East Mt. Airy and East Germantown, as well as parts of near Northeast Philadelphia.
Combined Sewer Overflows


During dry weather, the combined sewer system and wastewater treatment plants have the capacity to transport and treat all the sanitary sewage entering the system. However, when flow in the sewer increases as a result of rainfall or snowmelt, the sewer pipes or treatment plants may reach their capacity. When this happens, the EPA permits Philadelphia, as it does with other cities with combined sewer systems, to discharge excess wastewater into nearby waterbodies to prevent health and human safety issues that may result from localized flooding in neighborhoods and in treatment plants.
There are 164 combined sewer outfalls (CSOs) along the Delaware and Schuylkill rivers and the Cobbs, Tookany/Tacony-Frankford, and lower Pennypack creeks.
The unfortunate side effect of preventing flooding by allowing CSOs to discharge water is the contamination and erosion of our waterways. As stormwater travels over impervious surfaces, it picks up pollutants, and this polluted water mixes with raw sewage in the combined sewer. When there are overflows, these contaminants end up in our rivers and creeks, causing the waterbodies to be unsafe to recreate in for about 24 hours. The large rush of excess wastewater also scours river and creek beds. The pollution and scouring make it difficult for native plant and animal species to survive, giving way to invasive species and a degraded landscape.
Reducing the amount of stormwater that ends up in the combined sewer system can reduce the number of overflows, allowing our waterways to become healthier.
Related Issues
Safety
CSOs affect water quality and are often linked to flooding events, as the volume of precipitation is too great for the sewer system to accommodate.
What we're doing to address these issues
CSOcast
The purpose of this notification system is to alert the public of the possible Combined Sewer Overflows (CSOs) from Philadelphia's combined sewer system outfalls. This system is based on the Philadelphia Water Department's extensive flow monitoring network that has been maintained since 1995 via level sensors that record data throughout the combined sewer system. PWD currently operates and maintains monitoring equipment at or near the 164 CSOs throughout the city.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

northoceanbeach said:


> ...Here's the first thing I found for your area.
> 
> #Don't believe the signs city officials have posted at the four outfall spots that dump raw sewage into the Potomac River. The truth is much worse...


Nice job of selective quoting. Now you should quote the part where they point out how the Feds are cracking down on the obsolete sewer systems and forcing them to develop a plan to comply.

Dumping raw sewage is not acceptable, and laws have been passed to make it illegal. More needs to be done. But using it to justify dumping raw sewage from your boat is delusional.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Locally when there is raw sewage dumped in the sound or equal, it is more due to rain water overload, or something overflowing...........Victoria BC was dumping raw sewage, may still be altho I have heard they are not into the straight of juan de fuca. 

Back in the 60's, one could not literally swim in Lake Washington due to the sewage and polutants in the lake. Now you can see down 15-20' on the clearest of days. Less during a storm with typical mud dirt mixing in the water. 

Also locally, it is illegal to dump overboard any style of sewage or equal from a container. Now pissing or equal over the side of the boat is legal! or in your trunks or equal.......But within IIRC 3-5 miles of shore....do not try it! or at least do not get caught!

Marty


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

TakeFive said:


> No. In the US, raw discharge of sewage was eliminated by 1996. Municipal sewage systems have been continuously upgraded, so that significant organic removal occurs from all treated sewage prior .


How about you admit you were wrong. Eliminated means it doesn't happen. If I eliminate coffe from my diet, I don't drink coffee. Not I cheat and give myself an exemption whenever its convenient. You were wrong. Cities still dump. I didn't selective quote either, I didn't read the whole thing, but the artticle still stands. My point is not whether the cities are improving, i was simply trying to show that they do still dump. How about the city of Philadelphia article I posted below? That was the while thing too.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

So your part of the problem, obviously not part of the solution



northoceanbeach said:


> *I wouldn't worry about it. It seems minuscule*. Don't alot of cities just pump raw sewage and other stuff straight into the water? What is a couple liveaboards going to do? I mean. You're downriver from Philadelphia, Trenton and Camden. I doubt the water is sparkling. It would probably kill you to fall overboard, that liveaboards turd floating by is just the icing on the cake. I would bet money that 90% of liveaboards just dump and pump, and 50% of everyone else. I was in the marina in Honolulu for a while and I don't think they even have a pump out station.
> 
> People in Canada told me most places you are expected to dump it over the side.
> 
> If you're in a marina and still using your boat's toilet you're pretty disgusting.


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

the combined systems that Philly and NY have no choice but to dump raw water during times of extreme storms. A small thunderstorm will not do it, but when you have millions of gallons of water flowing into the system through all the storm drains, you simply cannot process it.

Is it right, no. But to individually plumb the storm drains away from the sewerage would be a major undertaking that would see most of the city streets torn up to replace pipes that were laid a century ago.

95% of the time, all the **** gets processed. 

It still does not excuse people from doing it on purpose


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

No, I hardly ever even use my toilet , and when I do I use the pump outs. I just don't think of people dumping as a problem.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

The continual problem with these issues is that people always seem to want to line up like we were going to begin a rugby match and your team must win.

There is still municipal dumping and many treatment plants only remove a percentage of organic matter, so are effectively dumping the rest everyday, rain or no rain. Around here it is effectively hundreds of thousands of gallon per day, every day. By in large, this is the cause of poor water quality, not boaters. However, boaters can't dump in confined areas either, such as harbors, and not impact that localized environment. They could most certainly dump in the middle of Naraggansett Bay and have zero impact. I even believe that the more intelligent tree huggers understand that. They just write laws that both make it easier to administer and make their supporters feel really good. Ban it all, they cry out, like a sports team pep talk! That doesn't mean the science supports it.


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## kd3pc (Oct 19, 2006)

chef2sail said:


> So your part of the problem, obviously not part of the solution


so sir, those with a difference of perspective or who have first hand knowledge are the problem?

Just for the record, I don't condone dumping sewage overboard, but to prohibit dumping of electric/self contained systems that treat better than the shoreside stations, as the EPA has done, is ludicrous. Yet their rules are based on 20-25 year old technology, but no one cares.

Some of you even think that dumping tap water or chlorinated water is harmful to the "flora/fauna" of the bay. I disagree, but that does not make me the "problem"

There are a lot of solutions to this, and just because some of us don't agree or believe your's is best...does not mean we are the "problem".

Give it a rest, you blaming us makes a ton of assumptions about people you don't even know...and you know what they say about assuming?


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

kd3pc said:


> ...and you know what they say about assuming?


I agree. I'm interested in hearing some real facts.


kd3pc said:


> ...to prohibit dumping of electric/self contained systems that treat better than the shoreside stations, as the EPA has done, is ludicrous...


Please show me the data that shows that self contained systems treat better than the shoreside stations. I am not saying this is untrue, it's just that I've never seen the data. So since you made this statement without assuming, please share the data with me. I really would like to see it.


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## kd3pc (Oct 19, 2006)

TakeFive said:


> I agree. I'm interested in hearing some real facts.
> 
> Please show me the data that shows that self contained systems treat better than the shoreside stations. I am not saying this is untrue, it's just that I've never seen the data. So since you made this statement without assuming, please share the data with me. I really would like to see it.


EPA/600/R-10/008 | January 2010 | US Environmental Protection Agency /nrmrl

almost all of the research (australia has reams of data, (that we(actually the EPA) refuse to look at) indicates that the systems treat to a much higher point than the shoreside systems. This is the latest from EPA, however it is still based on 20 year old data....and the EPA has yet to "approve" it.

This is but one example, others are out there, you can look for yourself. Several of the boat mags published a report about NDZ, and lectraXXXX systems a few years ago. Once again the science was shelved in favor of do something/feel good legislation.

And then there is the sell out by the CBF and Wonderful Will Baker, that kicks the whole clean up the bay down the road for another decade or more. They had the gov't where they needed to be, and then negotiated their release.


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## Coquina (Dec 27, 2012)

The WSSC says 85,000 gallons of untreated, diluted wastewater were spilled into the creek next to its Piscataway Wastewater Treatment Plant.

The sewage overflow lasted about 3 hours. WSSC officials say heavy rainfall caused the plant's capacity to be exceeded.

State environmental officials and local health officials have been notified of the spill, and signs have been posted warning people to avoid the area.

More than 44,000 gallons of sewage spilled near Goucher College in Towson before crews stopped the overflow Monday, Baltimore County public works officials say.

On Aug. 27, allowed about 100 million gallons of sewage to flow into the Patapsco River-the largest sewage spill since at least 2005.

*Jenn Aiosa, Maryland senior scientist at Chesapeake Bay Foundation, said that over the long term, the impact of the sewage flows on the Bay is less significant than the contamination from runoff, streams and groundwater that occurs across the Chesapeake watershed on a daily basis.

"Any time one hears about millions of spilled sewage, it is not a good thing. But it creates a problem of perception versus reality," Aiosa said. "We need people to be concerned about their water on a routine basis."*

So we routinely have spills in the thousands, hundreds of thousands, and millions of gallons and it is no big deal and not a major factor but some boat someplace sending 10 or 20 or 30 gallons over is a major disaster 

* Ever since I was about 5 years old, we were taught to never do #2 in the marina because it is really gross and dumping a TANK instead of one head use is way worse. Not excusing anyone that does that, but the overall holding tank effort is 99% feel-good-look-at-us-doing-something while the real expensive $$$ issues go on and on and on


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## johnnyquest37 (Feb 16, 2012)

"The city and Baltimore County are bound under consent decrees with state and federal regulators to halt their sewage overflows or face stiff fines. Officials say they are making progress, but the city has reported more than 360 overflows this year, spilling more than 10 million gallons of untreated wastewater into area waters. Baltimore County has tallied 148 overflows that dumped nearly 152 million gallons - two-thirds of it in a spill after a large sewer pipe blew out during Hurricane Irene in August."

-- December 10, 2011|By Timothy B. Wheeler, The Baltimore Sun

That is _*162 million gallons of raw sewage *_put into the Bay just from Baltimore and Baltimore County in 2011. Much of that "raw" sewage was certainly watered down by high rainfall amounts, but this is only the reported spills. It does not take into account the leaky sewers this article is about. How much sewage leaks into the Bay is unreported? And what about faulty septic systems on the Eastern Shore, or overflow sewage from the Potomac, Susquehanna and James Rivers? If we figure that 162 million gallons is only half the amount of sewage directly discharged, then we are looking at over 300 million gallons a year. That a lot - even for the Bay which contains roughly 1.7 trillion gallons of water.

Am I advocating pooping into the water around a marina? Absolutely not. But it is silly to think recreational boaters are the main source of sewage in the bay.


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## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

The moral of this story: The Chesapeake Bay is nasty. Boaters justify dumping their sewage overboard because the neighboring municipalities are already dumping so much that no one will notice the difference.


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## kd3pc (Oct 19, 2006)

caberg said:


> The moral of this story: The Chesapeake Bay is nasty. Boaters justify dumping their sewage overboard because the neighboring municipalities are already dumping so much that no one will notice the difference.


Not ONE of us has advocated boaters dump their tanks..If you don't like the perspective or opinion, that is fine, but drop the assumptions.

Having had a boat on the Chesapeake for well over 40 years, I have never dumped anything in the bay, let alone sewage. Nor have I personally known a fellow boater to have done so. You too, make assumptions that are unfounded.

I DO however, encourage the use of on board treatment systems, and have had a hold-n-treat system and was, and still am confident that it's discharge (legal, btw) is cleaner and more robust than any shore side system or septic tank


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## Coquina (Dec 27, 2012)

Not exaclty..........
As was told to me by a PhD Oceanographer:
With the exception of a few crowded and poorly circulating anchorages, we don't have instruments sensitive enough to detect the difference between boats using or not using holding tanks.

I sailed all over the British Virgin Islands where the water is NOT nasty and no one would ever think to use a holding tank there either.


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## RTB (Mar 5, 2009)

TakeFive said:


> OK, so it's time to ask a question that I've often wondered about.
> 
> Our marina has several year-round liveaboards - a few on sailboats, and a couple more on motorboats. These boats NEVER leave the marina. Based on the appearance of the boats, they may not be able to go anywhere.
> 
> ...


I suspect that those liveaboards dump, to answer your question directly.

If a marina allows liveaboards, the marina should offer free pumpouts. In our old marina in Kemah, the best option was to have a pumpout boat come to your slip. Redfish Island Marine | Pump-Out Services

The cost, if I recall was $25.00-$30.00 for a pumpout. Kind of steep, no? If the service was free, wouldn't most liveaboards use the service? If it is unlawful to dump in an area, shouldn't pumpouts be free (or available for a reasonable fee), and should be convenient as well.

The City of Marathon has solved the problem. My hat is off to them. With a mooring (at a reasonable fee), there is a mandatory pumpout once each week. They pump different rows of moorings on different days, so you are assigned a day when you sign up for a mooring. The cost for the pumpout is $0.00! Boot Key is now pretty clean. In the past, it was a mess from what I have read. The mandatory pumpout is taken very seriously, and no one will slide for long. If a boat doesn't have a proper MSD setup, they will get nailed.

St. Augustine also has free pumpouts. Just call, and they send the pumpout boat out to your boat. Not mandatory however.

My point is that marinas should be required to offer a solution to pumpout issues. The cost of doing business.

Ralph
Water view at low tide | sailing away with R & B


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## mark2gmtrans (May 14, 2013)

chef2sail said:


> This is not the forum for partisan political commentary. Please abstain from making them Feel free to make them in the appropriate place where others will be willing to answer your views.


oh, okay, thank you most almighty guardian of the interwebs and supporter of some party that is not my own LOL. Get real, a joke can be made just about anywhere. Take it for what it was, a joke, and one some people thought was sort of funny.


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## mark2gmtrans (May 14, 2013)

When I had one of my previous boats in the marina at Port Isabel they did not have a service to pump out except at the fuel dock IIRC, but since I was not living on the boat it never made much difference. I certainly would not ever want to dump my waste overboard in a marina, that is nasty. I have absolutely no issue with someone on a boat out in the gulf dumping their tanks overboard, especially if they have a macerator system or an electrosan, I just cannot see where people poop is any worse than fish poop in open waters. I am with the others that have said that this is feel good look what we are doing legislation. Oh holy moses, I said legislation...that might be partisan political talk.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Years ago, when all boats pumped directly overboard, you had to look carefully before diving in for a swim. Great Salt Pond at Block was a perfect example...plenty of trapped, floating turds. Now the pump boat comes around frequently and the harbor is clean. This is a good thing.


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## mark2gmtrans (May 14, 2013)

smurphny said:


> Years ago, when all boats pumped directly overboard, you had to look carefully before diving in for a swim. Great Salt Pond at Block was a perfect example...plenty of trapped, floating turds. Now the pump boat comes around frequently and the harbor is clean. This is a good thing.


Where are the catfish when you need them.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

smurphny said:


> Years ago, when all boats pumped directly overboard, you had to look carefully before diving in for a swim. Great Salt Pond at Block was a perfect example...plenty of trapped, floating turds. Now the pump boat comes around frequently and the harbor is clean. This is a good thing.


I think this is the most important counter-argument to those who claim that boat discharges are negligible. Yes, once fully diluted, the discharge may be negligible. But at the time you discharge it, it is highly concentrated, and it can take time to mix with the other water. In a closed cove, it could hang around for days. But even in an open body like the Chesapeake, it could take hours, during which time someone could swim or waterski through it. So it might be negligible compared to other discharges, but not to the person who comes along at the wrong time. uke


Coquina said:


> Not exaclty..........
> ...I sailed all over the British Virgin Islands where the water is NOT nasty and no one would ever think to use a holding tank there either.


Actually the water can be pretty nasty in Roadtown. Go into the Moorings/Sunsail/Footloose marina and walk back into the back part where they keep the Footloose boats. There's a vile smell there. I don't know whether it's from charter boats leaving their T-valves open, or from Roadtown discharging sewage into that area, but it's a most unwelcome odor, and I suspect that's why the most upscale Moorings yachts are kept at the outer part of the marina.

I've also read that things get pretty stinky over by Conch Charters, but I have not been over there to personally witness it.

My point is that you can even stink up paradise, especially in populated areas.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

mark2gmtrans said:


> oh, okay, thank you most almighty guardian of the interwebs and supporter of some party that is not my own LOL. Get real, a joke can be made just about anywhere. Take it for what it was, a joke, and one some people thought was sort of funny.


Mark not that I am the guardian of the internet and no need to be sarcastic about it. I like a spirited political argument like the best of them. But starting on Obama here in these forums will lead others like me to answer in kind about other inept politicians and then these threads turn political. All I was asking is that these forums be kept pristine of the Obama comments or any other political banter for others who don't want to read it here and take it to the political forum

However if you don't have the maturity to see that point of view it will be met with equal and opposite political banter until the mods see fit to stop it. Either solution works for me.


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## joethecobbler (Apr 10, 2007)

still full of yourself


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## aa3jy (Jul 23, 2006)

Technically the US Navy is still exempt from MARPOL

Shipboard Pollution Control: U.S. Navy Compliance with MARPOL Annex V


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## Coquina (Dec 27, 2012)

I don't think *anyone* is making an arguement that dumping in crowded poorly flushed areas is a good idea. THAT is where an MSD is a real help. For the other 99% of the waterways, not so much. For example, my marina is a dug out basin with one narrow entrance. The one farging icehole that dumped a holding tank in there pretty much did the same thing as dumping it in a swimming pool 
As for the rest of Kent Island, we have failing septics all over the southern end of the island that are pretty much running into ditches and out into the Bay. I have heard on the down-low that some homeowners have run their sewer lines straight into the nearest creek because their drain fields no longer work uke
So.......pretty much every boat on the island could not come CLOSE to what every house "contributes" 

As for stinky harbors in Tortola, when we got there the place REEKED of diesel. We had to run around the marina with a bottle of Joy to try and get the smell down enough to sleep.



TakeFive said:


> I think this is the most important counter-argument to those who claim that boat discharges are negligible. Yes, once fully diluted, the discharge may be negligible. But at the time you discharge it, it is highly concentrated, and it can take time to mix with the other water. In a closed cove, it could hang around for days. But even in an open body like the Chesapeake, it could take hours, during which time someone could swim or waterski through it. So it might be negligible compared to other discharges, but not to the person who comes along at the wrong time. uke
> 
> Actually the water can be pretty nasty in Roadtown. Go into the Moorings/Sunsail/Footloose marina and walk back into the back part where they keep the Footloose boats. There's a vile smell there. I don't know whether it's from charter boats leaving their T-valves open, or from Roadtown discharging sewage into that area, but it's a most unwelcome odor, and I suspect that's why the most upscale Moorings yachts are kept at the outer part of the marina.
> 
> ...


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## mark2gmtrans (May 14, 2013)

Perhaps the problem with dumping in the marina can be explained by the improper mounting of the actual head, as shown in this ad which I found in another thread.


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## Grunthrie (May 2, 2013)

chef2sail said:


> Mark not that I am the guardian of the internet and no need to be sarcastic about it. I like a spirited political argument like the best of them. But starting on Obama here in these forums will lead others like me to answer in kind about other inept politicians and then these threads turn political. All I was asking is that these forums be kept pristine of the Obama comments or any other political banter for others who don't want to read it here and take it to the political forum
> 
> However if you don't have the maturity to see that point of view it will be met with equal and opposite political banter until the mods see fit to stop it. Either solution works for me.


Where's the dislike button? The guy cracked a one-liner and no one took the bait. The original joke was more predicated on federal spending and ineptness et al, not specific to the current head of state. You didn't object to bad-mouthing the EPA, which is a much more politically charged topic.
just my $0.02, please don't blow a gasket.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Grunthrie said:


> Where's the dislike button? The guy cracked a one-liner and no one took the bait. The original joke was more predicated on federal spending and ineptness et al, not specific to the current head of state. You didn't object to bad-mouthing the EPA, which is a much more politically charged topic.
> just my $0.02, please don't blow a gasket.


Obviously your myopic blinders are in place. Read a few more of the threads. Try the politics one. I don't diss the EPA either.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

*Re: Do marina liveaboards dump their "[email protected]!^" in the river?*

:hotheadOh, please!
Where does someone's dog do their thing? Where does the cats' "stuff" go? All the wild animals and birds do their thing outdoors, I believe. And just exactly where do you think all that "[email protected]!^" goes when it rains?
A half dozen liveaboards are not the problem.
When the sewage treatment plants have problems they dump massive amounts of untreated human excrement into the rivers and bays of the US, secretly and without fanfare. 
The aged sewer system in Ft. Lauderdale leaks huge quantities of raw sewage into the waters of the Las Olas Isles area, but the city blames the yachts for all the pollution. In the late 60's California was all over the liveaboards in Sausalito about pollution while the farms and factories up the rivers were dumping huge quantities of truly toxic stuff in the rivers, which then flowed into the bay. I'm sure it is the same all over the country.
Most liveaboards are extremely conscious the environment we live in. We were using biodegradable products long before mainstream America had ever heard the word biodegradable!.
I get so tired of being the target of every government agency that puts pollution on the boaters because their administration doesn't want to foot the bill to repair or replace aging sewage systems.
Whatever we may or may not be putting in the water around us is infinitesimal compared to that dumped by modern society.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

*Re: Do marina liveaboards dump their "[email protected]!^" in the river?*



capta said:


> :hotheadOh, please!
> Where does someone's dog do their thing? Where does the cats' "stuff" go? All the wild animals and birds do their thing outdoors, I believe. And just exactly where do you think all that "[email protected]!^" goes when it rains?
> A half dozen liveaboards are not the problem.
> When the sewage treatment plants have problems they dump massive amounts of untreated human excrement into the rivers and bays of the US, secretly and without fanfare.
> ...


Nice little rant. Unfortunately I can't find your answer through all the bluster.

Are you a dumper or a pumper?

From your defensive tone, I'll guess that you're a dumper.


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## Seaduction (Oct 24, 2011)

NEWS FLASH! Gov't gives boaters a new service.... the Sanitary Head Instruction Team. They thought we needed more #### from them.


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## mark2gmtrans (May 14, 2013)

Seaduction said:


> NEWS FLASH! Gov't gives boaters a new service.... the Sanitary Head Instruction Team. They thought we needed more #### from them.


Oh, this is just one of the many services of the US FECES team. Feces operates the Sanitary Head Instruction Team, the *P*eople's* O*nboard *O*lfactory *P*rotection *Department*, the *T*ransportation *U*rinal *R*egulatory *D*epartment, and many more to come.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

*Re: Do marina liveaboards dump their "[email protected]!^" in the river?*



TakeFive said:


> Nice little rant. Unfortunately I can't find your answer through all the bluster.
> Are you a dumper or a pumper?
> From your defensive tone, I'll guess that you're a dumper.


I live in the Caribbean where pump out stations a tad few and far between, so you can guess whatever you damn well please; I am not the problem.
I was living aboard long before any of this was an issue and have seen us become the scapegoat for every powerful company's and municipality's waste, and Oh hell, never mind, you just don't get it anyway....


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

With this topic, it's always the livaboards that get 'dumped' on.

Back at my last marina, we made the effort to get to the gas dock to pump out. But there were weekenders who took their boats to the gas dock regularly for fuel, who never pumped out, never. There were about a dozen livaboards in a 750 slip marina. Who do you think was do-do-ing in the water?


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## Coquina (Dec 27, 2012)

None of the livaboards in my marina EVER move. EVER. I assume the mobile pumpout truck takes care of them. I really hope so. My wife is not so trusting and does not allow me to scuba dive in the slip. We have to head out and anchor someplace for bottom cleaning. I actually think the "phantom pooper" that we used to have was not one of the liveaboards. No one who stays here every day would want that stench. We had to dig out the ice-eaters to aerate the water to digest all that _stuff_. What I think most of the liveaboards do is just head up to the bath house for #2


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## dave c (Aug 26, 2013)

Here in Florida we have pumpout/holding tank laws, go offshore 2 miles from Hollywood and there is an area called the Stinkhole, a pipe constantly discharging untold amounts of "treated' water into the sea. Go out there and smell what it smells like on open water and tell me if this "legal" dumping is acceptable. Yes its bad when liveaboards dump but I think worse when the government lets this kind of dumping go on. I wish I had some pictures of Ft. Lauderdale reefs when I started scuba diving in the late 1980s. Now they look totally different. Pretty sad I think. We won't even talk about Cruise ships and their legal and illegal dumpings that go on!


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## Grunthrie (May 2, 2013)

RTB said:


> My point is that marinas should be required to offer a solution to pumpout issues. The cost of doing business.
> 
> Ralph
> Water view at low tide | sailing away with R & B


Yes, exactly. For what a slip or mooring costs on a per day/month basis pumpout should certainly be planned for and included, especially for full-time liveabords, triply so if a 'liveaboard fee' is included in slip/mooring rental.


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

TakeFive,

You said something, it was proven to be wrong, then you tried to infer that you actually said something else.

I suggest this, but do what you will... When someone corrects you, thank them and move on. When it's about the learning everyone wins.

Regards,
Brad


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

I built in a composting head last year. It works really well. The main attribute of this system is being able to go a long time between cleanouts. Instead of pumping out large quantities of reeking sewage water every few days, the composting process lengthens the disposal period to a month, maybe more. It never develops the obnoxious, penetrating odor aboard of mixed urine, water, and crap. With the long cycle time, it's usually possible to dump the composted waste overboard offshore. 
The main problem with any kind of dumping overboard is doing it in confined bodies of water. Whether holding tank or direct overboard heads, the problem is with dealing with the large quantity of material which is mostly flush water and the frequent pumpouts required. In confined harbors, adopting the composting idea might solve a lot of the liveaboard sewage problems.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I'm not a big fan of composters, but acknowledge they have their place. My biggest issue is having guests use them properly or want to use them at all. Making a deposit on top of the last guys deposit would not make some happy. Kind of outhouse-like.

Dumping a composter offshore was something I had not considered. The debate usually ends up with he partially composted waste in a dumpster. Yuk.

When you dump offshore, does the compost float? As I've posted many times, I find the 3 mile offshore NDZ laws to be ridiculous for small recreational boaters. However, if the compost is going to float in a mass onto shore, as opposed to instantly dilute into trillions of gallons of water, I would feel differently.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

The compost disseminates and sinks pretty quickly when sent overboard and is unlikely to float 3 miles into shore. It contains no chemicals, only coconut coir and decomposing poop and paper, so is little different than a direct discharge head. It can also be easily stored in a 5 gallon spackle bucket and unlike usual holding tank storage, has no tendency smell badly. I agree that putting it in a dumpster is a little yucky and so will wait to discard when beyond the dumping limit. 

Some people use this kind of compost in their gardens I think I'll continue to get my gardening supplies at the store or from the local dairy farm. It's interesting to think why cow poop is less yucky than hu-poop.

My built-in has a panel that can be slid out of the way after sitting so the user does not have to look down into the scary depths of the bucket. Actually once the stirring rod turns the stuff over, it just looks like a bucket full of peat moss and has about the same kind of odor. It's really not disgusting like one of the chem toilets or an open pit hiking trail toilet. Nonetheless, those of faint heart may be initially intimidated.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

smurphny said:


> ..... It's interesting to think why cow poop is less yucky than hu-poop....


Different bacterias for starters, human being nastier. More important are different diets. Human waste containes the cocktail of chemicals from ordinary grocery shelf items. You know, those ingredients we can't even pronounce. Not to mention pharmaceuticals.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Unless you are buying very expensive organic meat (and maybe not even then) you are buying meat full of anti-biotics and a wide array of growth hormones.


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

smurphny said:


> It's interesting to think why cow poop is less yucky than hu-poop.


Carnivore (and omnivore) poop smells a lot worse than herbavore poop.

Regards,
Brad


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

boatpoker said:


> Unless you are buying very expensive organic meat (and maybe not even then) you are buying meat full of anti-biotics and a wide array of growth hormones.


I agree. Beef, Chicken, etc. are highly laced with all kinds of compounds inserted along the way. Not only is modern mass-market food scary in this aspect but it is also bland and tasteless. Sorry for throwing this thread off track.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Bene505 said:


> Carnivore (and omnivore) poop smells a lot worse than herbavore poop.
> 
> Regards,
> Brad


Have you ever passed by a Vermont dairy farm on a sultry summer day? Breathtaking


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## Coquina (Dec 27, 2012)

OTOH buffalos are such efficent digesters their exhaust is about dry enough to burn.


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

Coquina said:


> OTOH buffalos are such efficent digesters their exhaust is about dry enough to burn.


So if you have a composting toilet, you can power your bar-b-que from it?

Regards,
Brad


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Bene505 said:


> So if you have a composting toilet, you can power your bar-b-que from it?
> 
> Regards,
> Brad


Some like Hickory smoked or Mesquite smoked flavor. What would you call this kind of smoky flavor? I can smell a whole new marine technology here.


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