# Cal 20 in Vancouver, BC



## serah (Jan 26, 2009)

So the boat buying process is in full swing. We've secured moorage (joy of joys!) at Lynnwood Marina. We've decided to go for something a bit smaller than we'd originally thought, and he's leaning pretty hard on a Cal 20, especially as there's one that looks like she's been well maintained in North Vancouver for $1900. He needs the space, as he bought another boat. We took a look at her the other night, but it was dark, and despite a high powered light, there are a few more things we'd like to check out. The current owner is being kind enough to let us take her out tomorrow morning and she how she is in the water. We couldn't take a look at the sails or a good look at the electrical, which we'll do tomorrow. Apart from that she seems seaworthy - he's done a lot of work/replacement.

Any thoughts on these boats? Is this a reasonable price? Anything we should be particularly attentive to on our sea trial?

Thanks so much!


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Cal 20s are good solid boats, though obviously quite small. You should watch for all the usuals, delamination, leaks, rigging conditions etc as these are all pretty old boats. For under $2K you'll get some fun sailing with these boats and there are a lot of them around if you ever want to get into some class racing. Also, with the seller being a 2 boat owner I suspect you can safely offer something less. These were the boats of choice for the old Jibset Sailing school, which had a standing offer of a prize for anyone who could actually knock them over - very stiff boats.

One thing, though, with moorage at Lynnwood... Mooring on the North Shore puts you between two bridges, each with considerable tidal currents (often flowing faster than your boat will travel) This places some restrictions on when you can leave and return to your marina, careful attention to tide_ and current_ tables is required. In your case, as sailing is limited in the Harbour itself you'll need to go through a bridge narrows either way. English Bay is the better part of an hour with neutral tide, with Indian Arm half that distance through Second Narrows.

In order to make sure you can safely transit these areas you need to be certain that the outboard engine is reliable and powerful enough to help you get through the inevitable times when you can't quite time your passage for slack.

I suspect that, if this all works out for you both, it won't be long before you're looking to move up, but this may be a good way to "test the waters" as it were. Good Luck!


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## serah (Jan 26, 2009)

Thanks for the quick reply!

We've debated and debated how to go about getting on the water this summer, which at the moment is the priority. There is NO moorage anywhere closer to English Bay. Thunderbird - 5 - 7 year waitlist. Horseshoe Bay - about the same. My name is on the waitlist. There's nothing in False Creek or Coal Harbour either (not that we're particularly inclined to spend that sort of $ anyway) 

I have my current atlas sitting here just begging to be used  

Short of trailering, which at the moment will also require upgrading the truck, this seems the best option. Do you have another suggestion?

We've been told one portlight leaks, but want to check everything out. He originally was asking $2900 and dropped the price to $1900. 

The Cal only has a 3 hp on her right now. One of the thigns we'll be doing tomorrow is playing around in the tides to see what she can do. We'll likely be upgrading the engine as one of the first big projects. The upgrade to an upper twenty footer is already planned - this was really just meant as something to get us through the summer


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## AdamLein (Nov 6, 2007)

serah -- we were in your situation in 2006. Due to delays I lost a spot in Mosquito Creek and we ended up keeping our boat in Point Roberts. I've been really happy with the decision (even though we are carless and it involves a lot of walking and bussing!) ever since.

Best part is that you're about 15 nm from the San Juans and 10 from the Gulf Islands. You're about a day's sail from Howe Sound or Nanaimo. You motor for about five minutes to get past the breakwater and you can hoist right away. They also have very relaxed races on Saturdays in fall and winter, and Tuesday nights in spring (haven't tried that out myself but will probably crew this spring). Boatyard, chandlery, restaurants, usual amenities as well.

Call to find out about their availability. Their website says none under 30' but I could swear I've seen space on T dock (in fact I'll let you know on Monday).

p.s. no affiliation with the marina, though I can see how I might come off that way...


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## AdamLein (Nov 6, 2007)

p.p.s. lot less crowded, no tugs pulling logs, no bridges dumping soot, no crazy tidal currents (well, maybe one crazy tidal current)... okay I'm done.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Serah

If you were referring to the Georgia Strait Current Atlas, it's of limited use for where you are. You will be needing the current tables specifically for First and Second narrows to time your passages. The real current atlas is somewhat cryptic and mostly of use to long distance racers and tugboat skippers.

There are advantages to keeping a boat in Pt Roberts, esp proximity to the Gulf Islands but constantly crossing borders is a hassle, and many there cruise exclusively in the US as a result. That in itself is neither good nor bad, but you'll miss an awful lot of beautiful territory on our side.

That 3 hp engine is going to be a bit of a problem if you intend to get yourself out to Georgia Strait. btw - you should give the False Creek Harbour Authority (604 733 3625) a call, they may well accommodate a 20 footer at rates similar to the North Shore. They are between Granville Is and Burrard Civic.


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## AdamLein (Nov 6, 2007)

Very true about the border, though a Nexus card ($50, lasts five years) should solve that problem. While I've noticed that we do tend to pick weekend cruises to the San Juans, we're planning longer trips to Canada (like maybe two weeks in Desolation Sound!).

False Creek might have something and the atmosphere there is pretty awesome. It's a tangled web of slips with houseboats, fishing boats, yachts, you name it. We spent a week there last summer and really got to liking the "neighborhood" feel: folks would dinghy across the fairway to borrow tools, or a bit of sugar, or whatever.

However I'm a bit concerned about the level of security. You can walk up to any boat you like. I've gone to visit a friend's boat there a coupla times and nobody ever asked my business. Same friend has also mentioned that stuff -- like outboards -- gets stolen unfortunately often.

The big thing that struck me in comparing False Creek / English Bay to Point Roberts is the crowds. I thought I was used to lots of boats on the water after sailing up Puget Sound... in Everett there were five or six and I've seen as many as _eight at a time_ in the waters just outside the Point Roberts marina. Imagine my surprise when we first motored up False Creek in July, and had to navigate around dragonboaters, scullers, layakers, SeaRays with bikini-clad babes all over them, water taxis, you name it. Hundreds of boats. Okay maybe you can count the babe-infested SeaRays as pro or con, but still, it was crowded. Also, with a 3hp outboard (we had a 4hp at the time) you're in everybody else's way. Also people don't seem to heed the "no wake" signs very well.

Anyway I know may sound a bit harsh in my view of this nautical Babylon, and I will probably visit there again, but it's very welcoming to come back to our home port where I have all the room in the world and everybody who works for the marina knows my face.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

If you choose to go into "the creek" on a summer weekend afternoon, then indeed, Adam's picture is quite accurate. But we are moored at the FCHA and have experienced no more issues with security or vandalism than we did at Mosq Creek - things were not worrisome at either location. They do have a full time security staff there and the docks are regularly patrolled. And besides, gated marinas are usually hit by thieves by water anyway so the gates are no deterrent there.

We rarely have any issues coming and going, though of course there are busy times - after all there are something like 5000 boats moored here. Busy times under the First Narrows bridge (ie slack tides) were much more of a bother than in and out of False Creek.

Convenient access to West and Steveston Marine, Granville Is and the developed waterfront walkways of Vancouver are bonuses too.

But, in this moorage market, you just gotta go where they'll take ya....


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## AdamLein (Nov 6, 2007)

Faster - good to hear that your experience in False Creek has been more or less problem free. And of course I can't deny that it's gotta be the most convenient spot in the world... I know I'd get more sailing in than just Sunday afternoons if the boat was basically a SkyTrain ride away. Plus they have fresh fish and chips I hear


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

AdamLein said:


> .... Plus they have fresh fish and chips I hear


True, but you have to like them a lot - most days the lineup is 45 minutes long!


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## shawmac (Dec 10, 2007)

Serah, have you checked out moorage in Deep Cove? The commercial marina there seems to have short waits (or used to anyways!) for small boats. It is also extremely convenient for daysailing in a smaller boat. There isn't much reach for the waves to build, so you can sail in Indian Arm in weather you wouldn't dare sail in other places (like Howe Sound). It can be a gale warning for Vancouver and you might not see more than 10kts in the Arm. We sail a 24 footer almost exclusively in the Arm, mostly due to the long haul out to English Bay, but we never get bored. Reid Point may also be a good option.

What is your budget for a boat? I have seen some nice looking San Juan 24s for sale here on the South Coast, and they probably can be had for under $5000.


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## CaptKermie (Nov 24, 2006)

*Sailors without Borders*

Well, I think I also mentioned Point Roberts before in another thread but I'll mention it again. As Adamlien said Pont Roberts does have some pros/cons, the customs one is more perceived than real. I will admit I hate it, can't stand it, bugs the $hit out of me, but in reality, it is just me being ornery, I don't take well to being questioned all the time, but I endure and mollify them best I can. The American Customs like to strut their authority but the bottom line is they depend on us Canadians to financially support that little peninsula so they generally let us through unimpeded (we have Nexus) and I rarely if ever get questioned.
For day sailing you will not be crossing back and forth across the water border so yes your sailing will be in US waters, big deal, it doesn't feel like it. Yes the perception of customs makes it more desireable to sail the San Juans and they are exceptionally beautiful, but it is also a simple matter of pulling into any of the nexus water points and phoning Canada customs, I just get my wife to do it, they are not that bad it is mostly perception that influences attitude. Then we spend a few days cruising the Gulf Islands and call US customs on our return, no big deal really, it is just attitude, my bad attitude.

The staff there know all their customers and recognize me every time, even at this years boat show the woman hailed me in the crowd, so I went over and said hello and asked how many slips are available. She said they are just shy of *50 available slips* and expect to have them filled by April 1/09. They have a pretty good setup down there and it is almost 100% Canadian occupied and they have two layers of security. The Customs border keeps out the undesireables and the marina security keeps the honest folks honest so there is little if any theft/vandalism. Sailors travel quite some distances to keep their boats there, I know of some from Cloverdale and Langley. It can't be more than 40 minutes from downtown Vancouver. They have the best location bar none and you can hoist your sails in 5 minutes. It really is all about perception both in travel and customs. There are compromises but you don't have to travel through Burrard currents or Fraser River currents or Sand Heads, Steveston, or out False creek to the Bay all of which take time and gas, and restrict yor sailing venue, I have checked out and researched all avenues and have to say that Point Roberts is worth the perceived hassle. You will sail more if you can get your sails up in 5 minutes, you can spend the time motoring out the inlet/river or spend the time driving your car, take your pick, they both consume time & gas, it is the loaction that wins in the end. 
Oh, did I mention, it is common for those sailing out of English bay to remain in the northern islands, Silva Bay and the Sunshine Coast are the most favoured. When embarking from Point Roberts you pretty much have your choice of going anywhere since you are right out there front and center of all those magnificent Islands. The loacation is awesome, the staff are freindly, the tenants are Canadian and it rains less than half the time it does at Mosquito creek or Lynnwood. I know this because I live out Tswassen way and commute into Vancouver for work every day and it can be raining at work when I leave and yet be sunny when I get home.
There are close to 50 30 foot slips available folks, so what are you waiting for!:laugher

Last but not least, they have a freakin Gas Station, something False creek does not have any more. and get this I drive down once a week just to fil up one of our two vehicle with gas and gas is always $.25, 25 cents, twenty five cents per liter less than in Greater Vancouver, this includes the $exchange so you can fill your car tank and save $15 dollar on a full tank plus what you save on boat gas. You can take that to the bank!


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

CaptKermie said:


> .......
> Last but not least, they have a freakin Gas Station, something False creek does not have any more. and get this I drive down once a week just to fil up one of our two vehicle with gas and gas is always $.25, 25 cents, twenty five cents per liter less than in Greater Vancouver, this includes the $exchange so you can fill your car tank and save $15 dollar on a full tank plus what you save on boat gas. You can take that to the bank!


Touche on that one, Capt K..... Still, after 3 years on the North Shore I have to say I really appreciate the convenience of the Creek. Even though AFAIK there are still fuel docks in the Harbour.

But to get this thread back on track, any news to report, Serah??


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## AdamLein (Nov 6, 2007)

CK, you've convinced me, and I was already convinced. Good to hear about the continued slip availability.


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## serah (Jan 26, 2009)

... and I'm back. Somehow missed that a reply had been posted.

So here's the new situation. That Cal we looked at was a.) in bad shape, with some pretty severe structural concerns that left neither of us even interested b.) over priced and c.) probably not what we want. We looked at a few more in various states of disrepair, and have pretty much decided we want just a bit more boat.

We just spent the weekend over in Victoria looking at boats (mostly Cals) there. On a whim, we took a look at a 24' Swiftsure that we've both fallen in love with, and the price is right at $2000. Her purchase is dependent upon 3 things:
1. That we find moorage here (see below)
2. That when we haul on Saturday morning, all is well (likely using a surveyor)
3. That the sea trial after the haul is satisfactory

_The Boat_
She's a 1974 24' Swiftsure. The current owner just wants her gone, and wants his moorage at the RVicYC. Though there's been tons of interest, no one in Victoria seems to have anywhere to keep her (sounds familiar!) She's obviously been loved, though likely neglected (though not abused) over the past few years. She needs a lot of brightwork done, but structurally and mechanically she's in good shape. There's a sink, water tank, semi-private head, and a decent sized v-birth ahead of the bulkhead. We'll add a stove, holding tank and possibly a tiny diesel heater. Bone dry bilges. Full set of sails in good shape (including two spinakers) and a 9.9 2-stroke outboard which started on the 2nd pull. The standing rigging looks great, though some of the running rigging will need a few new lines, cleats and blocks, and a bit of work to get more lines back to the cockpit. She's a pretty flat red at the moment, but should clean up nicely after a buff and a wax.

Questions/Concerns:
1. She has a "squishy" foredeck. There's about 3 ft. at the bow where you step on the fibreglass and there's about an inch of give. Obviously, it's covered in paint, but it doesn't appear to have any cracks, from the topsides or looking up from the v-berth (though the paint on the inside is cracked, the glass itself looks in good shape) There's no indication of delamination, or water intrusion. We talked with the current owner about this - his answer was that it's not a concern, and that it's simply an oddity from when builders weren't quite sure how to work with glass yet.
Do I need to worry? I can just see myself up on the foredeck hauling down the jib in a blow and falling through the deck. It seems sturdy, though bouncy... Not anything I've ever seen before, though the few people we've chatted with (not connected with the seller) don't seem to think it's a big deal. Should we consider reinforcing that with a laminated plywood crossbeam?

Her rigging is interesting. She appears to have a third set of extra shrouds... with locking blocks at the bottom, and no where to attach them. Each side currently has two shrouds (like the one in the picture) but the rear shroud has another removable, adjustable stay wrapped around it. I'm sorry I don't have a picture. The owner tried to explain it to us, but he wasn't sure where they were supposed to go either, as they seemed to interfere with either the main or the genoa when up. Any thoughts on what on earth these would be, and where they're supposed to go? They attach just below the spreaders.

In short, she's a lot of boat for so little money. Obviously we'll take her out, see how she sails, have a good look at the hull, keel, and keel bolts and decide from there.

Does anyone know anything about these boats? I can't find anything on them at all...

_Moorage_
After calling about 20 marinas around here we now have a few options. There is immediate moorage available at Reed Point in Port Moody. We figure about two hours out to English Bay (does that seem reasonable?) So we don't get evening sails in the Bay - we'll go up the Arm or toodle around the end of Burrard Inlet. Weekend trips to the Gulf Islands or Howe Sound. The appeal of this is we're a little under half an hour from home to boat, with only one bridge, whereas getting to Point Roberts is at least 2 bridges and a tunnel. After sitting in traffic for an hour and a half to get from Lonsdale to downtown on Friday, this doesn't seem like a good option to us.

Also, as the boat we've (almost) purchased needs a lot of attention, the closeness to home to muck about on her in the evenings is a huge bonus. Fuel dock isn't a priority, as with just an outboard, it's a portable gas tank anyway.

The other option is to hold out for Burrard Civic. Which is hopefully what we'll do. They don't know yet, but they said it's likely that a 25' slip will open up for April 1st, with no guarantees. If we go that route, we'll hole up in Reed Point for the next month at month-to-month rates (ouch!) and then move down to Burrard.

Yay boat


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Serah

The Swiftsure 24 is a cute little boat, there are several around here but they are definitely not a mainstream brand. I've always kind of liked them for what they are, but they will be smallish for the length by today's standards.

The extra rigging is likely a check stay or a running back, (IIRC this boat is a 7/8 fractional rig) used to help tension the forestay when beating. They need to be set up to windward (and released to leeward) on each tack and released when going downwind. This adds a task to each maneouver, and many who are not performance minded often leave them stowed somewhere and don't bother. As long as the integrity of the rig does not require them, all you lose is some perfomance (sail shape and pointing ability).

The squishy deck is a bit of a concern, and to understand the implications fully you need to try to find out just how the deck was constructed. It sounds like delamination of a cored deck. If the deck is not cored (fairly unlikely but possible) then it's simply too thin, and repeated flexing will eventually cause a problem. As I recall the deck has a pretty severe camber, which should help to stiffen it some. However the boat has survived this long, and at $2K you can afford to do some repairs perhaps.

If you get yourself on the Burrard Civic list, be sure to keep at them. If you simply "wait for the call" you'll likely be waiting for years. Did you try the Fishermans' wharf (FCHA)? Port Moody will wear thin in a hurry if you plan to do much sailing on English Bay.

Good luck!


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## AdamLein (Nov 6, 2007)

Serah -- perfectly understand the convenience of the close-to-home marina. Gotta do what works for ya.

I would second Faster's concern about the squishy deck. I'm surprised to hear so many folks saying it's not a concern, especially because "they weren't sure how to work with glass yet." Back when they weren't sure how to work with glass, their solution was to lay it on extra thick. My Catalina 27 is too years older without a soft spot to be found. I don't recall you mentioning a survey... make sure you get a professional opinion.

Also you mentioned something about a photo, but I don't see one!


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## shawmac (Dec 10, 2007)

Two hours is conservative estimate out to English Bay from Reed Point, if you have the current with you. We usually budget 2 hours from Deep Cove.

I don't think you will be disappointed with afternoon or evening sails in the Arm either. I think driving dowtown to Burrard Civic to work on her will get old faster than motoring to English Bay


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## serah (Jan 26, 2009)

We've arranged to have Land's End Surveyors out of Saanich come and take a look at her on Saturday morning when she's hauled and being power washed. Seems a bit silly to spend 10% of the value of the boat on a survey, but I'm not crossing the Straight in an unfamiliar boat in the middle of winter without one. And really, it's only $250. Also, if we do get into Burrard Civic (which the fellow I spoke with there thinks is likely) we need to have a 2 million dollar 3rd party liability insurance coverage, which requires a survey anyway.

I'm keen to have someone's opinion on the squishy deck as well. It just doesn't seem right to me. Structurally, I think it's fine, as all the way around the sheerline for a couple of inches in, and for a good foot at the very bow, she's solid, and doesn't flex. As Faster mentioned, there's a very high camber to the deck (which is quite annoying when she's moored, as walking about is awkward, but I imagine it'll be very comfortable when she's over on a 15 degree heel) Doesn't water damage usually occur where water pools, such as along the toe rail? The water would just run right off this bit of the deck, making me doubt it's water damage. When tapped, it has the same "tone" all across the flexible and rigid parts... What do I know though? That's why we've hired a surveyor!

Didn't post this link before, but here's what she'll look like when she's cleaned up - 1977-Swiftsure-24-Valley Boat Brokers-boat- sailboat-sailing-boating-okanagan-penticton-vernon-summerland-peachland-mercruiser-volvo penta-water craft-sport-fishing-bowrider-keel boat-fly bridge-command bridge-sun bridge-power-ron spence-kent hardist

She is a bit small down below for her size, mostly because the quarter berths don't extend back under the cockpit as they do in most boats. The battery sits on the port side, and I can't remember what was in the starboard side. The lazarette hatches aren't big enough to access the fore end of the lockers, so I think there's a bit of wasted space there. The cockpit is relatively small actually. Anyway, as fond as we are of company, and though we fully intend to take friends and family out for day/evening sails, we have little intention of using her to sleep 4 as she's intended. We may convert one of the quarter berths to extend the galley, or a tiny table.

Thanks Faster for the explanation on the rigging. Though the boy and I both come from a racing background (and we do hope to do some racing with her) me thinks that most of the time they'll be left as they are. I'll post some pics hopefully before we take her out on the weekend.

The moorage is starting to be a bit of a roulette game. Month to month at Reed point is pricey (~ $340) but we may do that and hold out 'til end of March for Burrard for a six month term, when the next kink, which is a likely move to Victoria will factor in. *sigh* And then we're back to finding moorage for her - again. Driving downtown won't be a factor (for me at least!), as I live here already. I can walk to the boat in a little over half an hour. If we do stay out at Reed Point, and want weekend sailing, it's likely we'd take her out to English Bay on the Thursday night and keep her on the hook, and sail out from there Friday.


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## serah (Jan 26, 2009)

And yes, we've looked at FCHA, Seycove, Seymour and Deep Cove Marinas. All have waiting lists. I think my name may now be on... oh 20 waiting lists in the area! And yes, once we've figured out what the plan is, I'll call them back and remove my name.

Another question - Does anyone have any experience towing a dinghy with a similar sized boat? If we're doing coastal cruising, a tender would be nice. I have what I called a Galleon 9 (erps has a similar boat, though for the life of me I cannot remember what he called it) It's a relatively heavy fibreglass 9-foot rowing shell/sailing dinghy. She rows much better than she sails, as she doesn't have a planing hull. Anyway, she's heavy, but is quite good about just skiming along the water when towed. Am I insane for considering hauling her behind us? How much would that slow us down? A knot? Two? There's nowhere to stow her on deck. The mental image of towing a boat more than a 1/3 the length of the mother ship is rather silly... How big is too big? Then again, we're certainly not doing this for looks  It's likely that we'll have a pup along with us on occasion, and will need shore access.


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## CaptKermie (Nov 24, 2006)

You posted a link to picture of a swiftsure towing a dinghy about the third of it's length so you can look and see what it looks like. I tow a 9'9" inflatable behind a 26' MacGregor and I am sure it looks like an inflatable the military would use, it is rather large (17" tubes) and has a little 5hp engine on the transom. I have to run my 50HP on the back of my Macgregor about an extra 500 rpm to compensate for the drag and maintain the same speed I like without towing (about 8 knots). It is a real joy to have a little dinghy to scoot around in and explore with when I get to any destination but I confess that I absolutely hate towing the stupid thing around with me, too much drag and always have to keep a watch on it. I only tow it when on extended trips of several days otherwise I'll go without just because it slows me down. One time I was crossing the San Juan Channel under sail and it seemd like the other few sailboats were passing me like I as sitting still because the dinghy really slowed us down under sail. You will lose about 2 knots depending on the weight while towing. They are a pain to tow but a joy to have.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

There'll be no problem towing a dinhy, but it will slow you down some. In chop or heavy rain and a hard dinghy it's useful to have a drain plug open so that any spray/rain doesn't accumulate and really make the little tub heavy. You just need to remember to replace the plug once you stop moving and before taking Bowser ashore!

Your boat is too small to carry the tender, so you're pretty much stuck with towing it.


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## AdamLein (Nov 6, 2007)

If you're willing to spend more on your tender than you did on the yacht, I saw at the boat show this 10-lb inflatable that rolls up and stows in a tiny bag. Amazing.

I shopped around a bit and went with a 14' SeaEagle inflatable kayak, which tucks neatly into a quarter berth when rolled up. 35 lbs, though. While it's probably not as tough as hypalon or whatever, I figure I can destroy five or six of them for the price of a real inflatable. Takes about ten minutes to set up; we've been using it to go ashore in the San Juans. Haven't tried towing it due to the chop... I expect it would flip.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Kayaks are a great idea, esp the plastic ones (beachproof) but problematic on a boat under 30 feet - they don't tow well as a rule and even the little 10 footers take up some deck space. The inflatable ones such as Adam mentions get the job done but are susceptible to oysters and barnacles, like any other inflatable.

Looking forward to hearing how your weekend turns out, Serah!


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## GraemeInCanada (Jun 17, 2008)

I was reasonably surprised to see people on here so local! I'm at Lynnwood at the moment, been there a couple of years now and it's pretty good despite the constant price increases...

The best thing about it is that it's simple to just go under the second narrows to go for a day trip up the indian arm, or pay a bit more attention to the tides and head out towards howe sound to Gibsons etc. Good day trips. Definitely a bit tedious to get all the way out from the marina to English Bay, I can't imagine it from Port Moody there, deep cove would be a bit of a pain too I think. 

Anyways, I have a US25 and it pulls the dinghy well enough. Mines a deflatable one though and not a proper tender as you may have. I suppose it depends on the motor on the boat itself, but the merc 9.9 I had before did ok. I do have to say that the high thrust yamaha 9.9 on now does a better job though.. pricey but well worth the extra power and reliance/efficiency and quietness. I would expect you to be slowed down a good knot or two I think. I don't have much more info on that, I'll let the more experienced speak up here.

On a related note, I would never buy a boat with a squishy deck. After doing enough research on the subject, no matter how cheap the boat, it just seems like way too much work to be worth it. Lotsa boats out there, no need to buy one that it just going to be lots of work. I got my boat without having to put anything into it other than what I wanted to put in. Sailable at the point of purchase is very attractive in my mind.


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## AdamLein (Nov 6, 2007)

Serah, got that link for the ultralight. It's called a "Feathercraft" (Feathercraft Folding Kayaks & Accessories) and it's not as expensive as I recall. I got to toss one up in the air at the boat show -- it really is ultralight, and still seems fairly rugged. Rolls up into a backpack-sized back (2 ft. x 8" x 10").


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## serah (Jan 26, 2009)

I love the idea of a kayak! However, wrestling my bumbling, uncoordinated 70 lbs. golden retriever mutt (see my avatar!) into one seems like a recipe for wet. Also, as I used to instruct/guide kayaking, I'm a bit of a kayak snob, and would likely be appalled at the way those paddle  As the boat is of such low value already, I'm disinclined to dump an equal amount into a new (or even used) dinghy. Especially as the lovely Galleon is mine already. Also, as we're so limited on space down below it makes stowing an inflatable down there rather unappealing.

I'm still not that psyched about Reed Point, but worry that holding out on a "maybe" at Burrard might turn out to be a no, and likely the one remaining slip at Reed would be gone, and then we're stuck with a boat, and nowhere to keep her. Summer nights on the Arm is better than watching from the shore, right? Plus it's only six months, and we'll be talking to marina's over in Victoria soon to figure out moorage for the fall. I'm one of the lucky few that will now have 3 boats I sail on regularly (two out of false creek - a CS 27 for racing, and the family 42' for longer cruising) 4 if you count the Galleon 

How long will the results from a survey take to come through? We haul at 10.30 on Saturday, and the surveyor will be there with us around 9. Assuming all is well, we were hoping to close on her this weekend. Is this completely unrealistic?

If we decide this is our girl, we'll spend the rest of the weekend in harbour at RVicYC doing some of the essential projects (*cough* new battery *cough*) as we don't think we'll have time to run up to Montague Saturday afternoon. The prospect of anchoring an unfamiliar boat in the dark seems... well ridiculously reckless. So she'll stay in Victoria until the next weekend, leaving the full two days to sail her home.


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## KBuckley (Sep 17, 2008)

Sounds pretty exciting. We bought our sailboat last June (first boat). The surveyor gave a verbal report at the end of the survey and said there was no reason not to buy the boat. The written report we received by email a couple of days later was much more detailed and to my mind not as upbeat as the surveyor was at the time. Never having been through the process I waited until I had received the written report before making a decision. In the end it did not change our minds but it could have. The written report made it clear that certain things needed to be done and since the insurance company wants a copy of the survey I assume those things *must* be done for the insurance to be valid.

Maybe your surveyor will have the time at the end to go over his findings in detail. Mine had a pretty full schedule. He was thorough and used his time in the field to survey and his time in the office to report.

I know it is hard to wait once you think you have made up your mind! Good luck this weekend.


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## shawmac (Dec 10, 2007)

He'll give you a talking to right then and there, pointing out the good and the bad so you could make the call then. Depending on the surveryor, he will write something mroe official probably within a few days.

We have had dinghy struggles with our 24; mainly in deciding what is best. The little hard dinghy we have is so small it is unstable so we went with a small, cheaper inflatable... but it doesn't tow in the traditional manner. We can tow it by tying it right to the pushpit... it looks silly but it works.

In a boat that small, I would suggest buying a cheaper inflatable and carrying small battery charged pump to inflate it at the end of the day when it is time to go to shore. That is what has worked best for us. When you are sailing across the straight in a small boat at 4-5 knots, 1-2 knots for a towed dinghy is a big sacrifice.


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## serah (Jan 26, 2009)

I spoke with the surveyor yesterday - he said results would be ready Tuesday, in our hands by Thursday. I also spoke with Westland Insurance yesterday - unfortunately, they weren't able to give me a quote - or even an estimate - without all of the info (I grumble, but it makes sense.) They were incredibly concerned about the age of the boat - she seems concerned about even getting insurance on a boat that old! Which really surprises me. Do you know anyone who has come up against that before? And without insurance - no moorage (again, a perfectly logical business decision.) We're both quite comfortable walking away from this deal if there are big problems. What concerns me is that the surveyor is not an insurance broker - he's not going to be able to say whether we'll be able to insure her. I don't want to be stuck with a boat I can't insure, and therefore can't keep anywhere. I guess just deal with it when it comes up. Argh.

As for the dinghy, we may have to accept keeping something rolled up below decks if only as a ditch boat. The boy disagrees, but I'm really not interested in losing 2 knots on a long crossing.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

serah said:


> ... I also spoke with Westland Insurance ... They were incredibly concerned about the age of the boat - she seems concerned about even getting insurance on a boat that old! Which really surprises me. Do you know anyone who has come up against that before? And without insurance - no moorage ..


You can make your offer contingent on getting insurance coverage, just as you would make it conditional to a satisfactory survey, or finding moorage, or satisfactory seatrial..... Of course it's up to the seller if he/she wants to accept this subjects....

Once the survey is in hand it's typically quite fast to get insurance, usually a phone call (agent to the carrier) and a signature. This can't be a big issue.. plenty of early 70s boats in marinas and they all must be insured (though it's the liability insurance they're most concerned about).


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## KBuckley (Sep 17, 2008)

Serah,
I got worried too when I first approached our normal insurance broker and they turned us down. They only take the really low risk customers and since it was our first boat we did not fit their profile. They suggested Dolphin Insurance who specialize in marine policies. Had no trouble there. You can even apply online and they have a Vancouver office. Never having made a claim I cannot comment on anything other than the ease of getting the policy.

Ken
(no affiliation with Dolphin or any known employee!)


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## serah (Jan 26, 2009)

So the saga continues!

The boy and I headed over to the Island (again) for the survey this Saturday morning. Met up with the current owner and the surveyor, and all four of us went over every inch of the boat. I'll have the full results back on Thursday, but in short he said we're getting a lot of boat for a rock-bottom price - always good to hear! She's in good shape, though she is still a boat from the early 70s, with all that that entails. I took tons of pictures but won't have them 'til tomorrow - will post - I promise!

After digging into his network of surveyors, he could only find a bit more about her than what we had. Apparently, these were Canadian made boats, out of Richmond BC, built from 1971 to 1972, under the name of Swift-Sure (not one word.) Again, even after more Google digging, I'm still not finding much.

Concerns - 
*Gas tank stored in lazarette
*Portable propane tanks stored in lazarette
*Delamination in forward deck - he feels it should be a fairly easy repair (drill holes when it's hot out, let dry for a week or so, epoxy the holes, and repaint. I'll be looking into how to do this in the next couple of months)
*Elevated moisture in a few spots on the hull and on the transom
*Hull blisters - though there are quite a few, all are still quite small (nickel sized at most), and though will require a weekend of grinding at a future haul-out, are to be expected on a boat this old.
*Engine isn't running as smoothly as it did last weekend. (it's a mid-90s 8hp mercury, and needs at the very least new spark plugs and a thermostat)

We didn't get out for a full sea trial, as it was really blowing when we were down at the docks. That will be the final condition of sale, as well as securing insurance.

There are a lot of projects to do - we priced the essentials out, and we figure probably an extra $500 to get her safe to take home (new battery, engine parts, sounder) and another $1000 for odds and sods to make her comfortable (stove/heater, charger, shore power etc.) over the next two years.

So now, we wait. We should have the surveyor's report by Thursday. If all goes to plan, we'll have insurance confirmed for Friday or early next week. As much as we'd like to have a full weekend to work on her before we run her the 60 some-odd nm home, I'm not sure how it will work out. The current owner needs the slip as soon as possible, so we can't leave her there for any longer than another two weeks.

I have nothing but praise for Arthur of Land's End Surveyors - if anyone is looking for a surveyor out of Saanich, or anywhere in Victoria, I would highly recommend him! He was very thorough, and pointed out how to fix even the cosmetic repairs. Above and beyond what we expected.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Well, that's sounding pretty good... but the soft deck repair, while doable, is not quite as simplistic as described, and may take more than a week to "dry out". There is some debate whether the "drill and inject" method is all that foolproof or guaranteed. But that's all for another day.

At around $2K your getting into this game at a low price. (but that's only the beginning, as you well know!)


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## serah (Jan 26, 2009)

I fully agree that the deck is not going to be a simple project. My sincere apologies in advance as I'm sure that I'll be back here cursing the day we chose to buy a boat that we knew required some fairly substantial glass work. Even in the peak of summer in Vancouver, I don't know what the chances of a completely dry week or more are going to be. Something's telling me we'll be ripping up a good chunk of the deck. *sigh* At the end of the day, this is the boy's boat more than it is mine - he has his heart set, and despite my rather vocal protestations about the state of the deck, he doesn't seem concerned. Oh, shall I rue this day...

Are there ever any repairs on a boat that are as simple as they appear? Isn't the rough rule of thumb you'll spend double what you thought, and easily double the time?

The plan is to love her, and put a lot of time into her, though keep a hard cap of $2000 on what we'll put into her (at least for things that we can't take when we sell her again in about two years, which the surveyor was pretty confident we should be able to do for $4000 or so. Not that I would ever even dream of making money off selling a boat.  ) Either way, it's certainly not breaking the bank, and we'll learn a hell of a lot.


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## serah (Jan 26, 2009)

Was just reminded earlier - all of her sails seem to have been replaced with sails from a Thunderbird, complete with sail # 19611 (IIRC) They look to be in great shape, with no tears or even worn through stitching. A jib, a genoa that looks huge (won't know % 'til we have it up when it's not blowing 30kts), two spinnakers, and the main. No storm jib though...


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## shawmac (Dec 10, 2007)

Allow me to be the first to say "congratulations!" (I am taking the safe gamble that the sale will go through). I think you are making a rather good move; keeping it small and not over extending yourself. The bigger challenge is next year, when he has full on two-footitis (or perhaps even ten-footitis in a severe case) and you have to bring him back to reality (I have a bad case of it right now).



serah said:


> Are there ever any repairs on a boat that are as simple as they appear? Isn't the rough rule of thumb you'll spend double what you thought, and easily double the time?


Well, changing the main halyard was simpler than I expected


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## AdamLein (Nov 6, 2007)

Serah, congratulations on what sounds like a vessel that will give you tons of hours of great sailing, as well as tons of hours of, um, very rewarding time on the hard!

At some point all of us PNWers with cheap 70s boats should have a cheap-70s-boat get-together.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

serah said:


> So the saga continues!
> 
> The boy and I headed over to the Island (again) for the survey this Saturday morning. Met up with the current owner and the surveyor, and all four of us went over every inch of the boat. I'll have the full results back on Thursday, but in short he said we're getting a lot of boat for a rock-bottom price - always good to hear! She's in good shape, though she is still a boat from the early 70s, with all that that entails. I took tons of pictures but won't have them 'til tomorrow - will post - I promise!
> 
> ...


Both of these can be solved by making a fuel/LPG locker, although, ABYC probably would frown upon storing the two in a single compartment. 



> *Delamination in forward deck - he feels it should be a fairly easy repair (drill holes when it's hot out, let dry for a week or so, epoxy the holes, and repaint. I'll be looking into how to do this in the next couple of months)


Bad idea.... generally a much better idea, although more work, is to cut away the top layer of laminate and re-core the area. In the long run, it will produce a much better and stronger repair if done properly.


> *Elevated moisture in a few spots on the hull and on the transom


If the hull and transom aren't cored, this may be due to osmosis, given the blisters on the hull. If the hull is cored, this may be a big problem. I don't believe the Swiftsure had a cored hull though.



> *Hull blisters - though there are quite a few, all are still quite small (nickel sized at most), and though will require a weekend of grinding at a future haul-out, are to be expected on a boat this old.


You really need to dry the hull thoroughly before attempting to repair these. Also, barrier coating the boat at that time would probably be a really good idea. I like Interprotect 2000E. 


> *Engine isn't running as smoothly as it did last weekend. (it's a mid-90s 8hp mercury, and needs at the very least new spark plugs and a thermostat)


Clean the carburetor as well.



> We didn't get out for a full sea trial, as it was really blowing when we were down at the docks. That will be the final condition of sale, as well as securing insurance.
> 
> There are a lot of projects to do - we priced the essentials out, and we figure probably an extra $500 to get her safe to take home (new battery, engine parts, sounder) and another $1000 for odds and sods to make her comfortable (stove/heater, charger, shore power etc.) over the next two years.
> 
> ...


Good luck and congratulations.


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## serah (Jan 26, 2009)

Thanks for the congratulations and support! I love the idea of a 70s-era small boat rendezvous!

As you can tell we've already succumbed to a case of 2ft-itis. As we went from wanting a 20' to (nearly) buying a 24', can we just say that we both had a case of it to make up for the extra 2'? I've held my other -itis (cc-itis in this case - my 49 cc scooter, Piglet, just isn't doing it for me anymore. I'm coveting a Honda Hawk CB400) at bay for a while, but we'll see. One simply can't live with two cases of upgrade-itis - one will have to lose  We're only planning on keeping this one for about two years, when we'll move either to the 27' range, or right up to a 35' liveaboard.

The surveyors recommendation for the gas tank was simply to strap it to the front of the cockpit, and build a semi-permanent stair over top of it. I'm really not keen on this (not least because we now have a fuel line running the length of the cockpit. Guaranteed someone is going to kick or pull on it, spewing fuel everywhere, and possibly losing power in a sketchy situation) I think we'll be adding some sort of fuel locker in the aft starboard lazarette. This is not my area of expertise, so does anyone have any good sources on how to do this?

How do others store portable LPG tanks?

As for the deck, striping the top layer and completely redoing it seems like a better, if more tedious approach. The deck is bare where it's delaminated at least - no hatches or such to mess about with, though some of the stanchions, and possibly the pulpit may have to come off. Can this be done while she's afloat, or do we need to be on the hard? We may end up doing this sooner than expected, as the forward cleat (used for mooring, as well as everything else!) seems dangerously close to the delamination. IIRC, it was still solid there, but I will certainly be doing some poking about.

Total newb question - but how does one tell if the hull is cored? The surveyor said that the high moisture levels corresponded with (I think) the lazarettes, or somewhere else that a bit of water had pooled. He didn't seem concerned, or it may just have been that there's not much that can be done... She is an old(er) lady, afterall. Is there anything that can be done about this? Is it a safety concern? Apart from resaleability, how much should I *really* care? I read SailingDogs' boat inspection tips, which gave me the impression that if there's a high moisture rating, to simply run away. I know many will say I am insane for buying a boat I know is wet. How unrealistic am I being saying that we'll haul, dry, grind, epoxy (barrier coat?) and repaint the hull in a weekend? How long will it take for her to dry out? I assume this can't be done in a weekend. We're planning on keeping her in the water year round, and at least doing a bit of winter sailing. Would hauling for a week suffice?

(sorry for the plethora of questions!)


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I'm in the process of building a LPG locker that will hold two composite LPG tanks. It will be mounted on the starboard side of the main hull under the stern rail seats, between the main hull and the ama. The locker is being made from 3mm marine plywood that is being laminated to 6mm and fiberglassed over.


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## AdamLein (Nov 6, 2007)

As for doing the glasswork in the water vs. on the hard, there's a couple of things to consider. First, the marina might not let you do it on the water because what happens if goop spills in the drink? They're probably subject to environmental laws that prohibit such a risk. Secondly, if you're doing it in the water then the only place to stand is on the deck or on the float... either way not the most comfortable spot. If you're going to be hauling to deal with blisters or whatever, you might as well do the deck at the same time since both of them will require drying time.


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## shawmac (Dec 10, 2007)

A weekend might be pushing it for doing the hull. Doesn't give much drying time.

As for the Propane tank, we had(have) a very similar issue. Given the regulations, building it into the locker in a small boat is just so much hassle (airtight from cabin, vented outboard from the lowest point in the compartment). The stern locker is usually too small and the port/starboard lockers end up putting any possibility of an outboard vent below the waterline when heeled.

Your best bet is to hang the tank on a bracket off the stern beside the motor (this is what our surveyor suggested). Use a small tank (or even rig up a system with the little disposable bbq canisters). There is no point in trying to hang a larger tank as it would probably last you multiple seasons then for the amount of propane the range actually uses.


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## serah (Jan 26, 2009)

Success! The boat is ours, and safely moored in Reed Point Marina. Here's a link to some photos from her haul a while back:


















It was certainly a bit of an adventure. We meant to leave Victoria Saturday afternoon, but it was blowing 35, gusting 45 in the Juan de Fuca straight. Seemed a bit foolhardy even for us. We installed a new battery, discovered all the lights were working (!) and installed a bilge pump. We were up at dawn on Sunday to run to Ganges, and then a tight run for Clam Bay just as it was getting dark. We were the only boat in the anchorage (and apart from racers, one of the very few boats even out.) We woke up Monday morning (after a freezing night in a tiny boat with no heating) to a sheet of ice on the deck, and 2 inches of snow, and less than a mile of visibility. The snow did help with insulating the boat though. 








(Don't mind the very sloppy bucket in the cockpit.) We chose to sit tight for the morning, and once the ice on deck had melted (somewhat) we ran for Degnan Bay, where we dropped the hook in the channel and did some necessary "improvements" - a jury-rigged cunningham/reefing line, replaced the line in the traveler and the vang, and cobbled together a reefing system, as we were expecting heavy winds on the crossing. Woke up to wind howling in the rigging and a change in the current. After debating whether we'd hold on the smooth rock bottom with our claw anchor, the boyfriend decided we'd be better off at the gov. dock for the remainder of the night. Ahh... nothing like finding out how your boat feels than hauling anchor in strong currents and gusting winds to dock your boat in the dark.

We passed through Gabriola pass at slack water into 2 metre swells and turned for Vancouver. We considered running the sails, but the decks were still covered with sheets of ice. Except now, with rollers hitting us abeam, and waves breaking over the foredeck, this was saltwater freezing on deck. Take a look at the icicles that formed on the "lifeline" (yes, replacing the lifelines is one of the first projects)









Here's me at the helm looking thrilled at the cold weather:







At least by that time the seas had settled some. We made it home safe and sound in the end, if a bit chilly. Oh, were we dreaming of the warm blue waters of the Caribbean.

The boat handles beautifully. She's nimble and handles even pretty big water with ease. There are a few odd things with the rigging (namely that the current ownder used goldbraid as the main halyard, and there's no winch. Which means I'm at the mast standing on a very ****** (icy?) deck pulling on a halyard which refuses to go up any further, as it simply stretches. *sigh* We can't seem to get the sail up high enough, leaving the boom with a rather severe downward angle.

In short, we're thrilled, even if we realize how much of a project boat she truly is going to be.

*Photos don't seem to be working. Here's a link to them on Flickr. Samurai Survey & Trip Home - a set on Flickr


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Congratulations! Well done. Takes a hardy sort to deliver a boat in these conditions. It is uncommonly cold this week, I can see why you're bundled up. Last week I took my boat around to Mosq Cr for a haulout... could've used some gloves then and that was only an hour!

Now all you need to get is that slip closer to the action. Hope to see you out there one day!


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## AdamLein (Nov 6, 2007)

Wow... so it's the Bering Sea for you next, I suppose. Incredible trip. Although it couldn't have been _that_ cold -- your camera's batteries were still producing current 

Got any pictures of the limping boom and main? Wonder what's going on there.

Anyway, congratulations on bringing her home safe and sound, and with repairs performed underway, no less. She sounds like she's in good hands.


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## serah (Jan 26, 2009)

Well, it wasn't that cold... apparently, it was only -14C with the wind chill yesterday.

And, she's remarkably non-drafty down below. Some decent hatch tape on the forward hatch (we took on some water as we plowed through a couple of the 2+ m waves) should fix that. Luckily, we'd anticipated that, and had a tarp down over our kit.

We'll be down tomorrow night again to start the other projects. If we can raise the main while at the dock, I'll snap a few and ask questions. I think part of it is that the main simply seems too big (it's from a Thunderbird). I'll take a tape measure and do IPJE and all the others sometime soon. Even with a loose outhaul (which currently doesn't work at all  ) there's not much space at the end of the boom to haul it out. The boom height is adjustable, which helped when we hoisted the second time. I hope most of it is that ridiculous halyard, and hence not enough tension in the roach/leech.


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## shawmac (Dec 10, 2007)

Congrats on the safe delivery Sarah! Good to see some more sailers that aren't scared of the chills.

We'll have to have a little 24 footer race in the arm  We'll definitely keep an eye out for Samurai... If the wind is blowing, there is always a good chance you'll see Troika the San Juan 24 out there keeping the bottom clean.

FYI: http://www.deepcoveyc.com/downloads/RaceSch08and09.xls They are keen to have more boats racing with them; we are going to jump into our first season this year!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Congrats Serah. Post photos when you can.


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## CaptKermie (Nov 24, 2006)

*Nice pics!*



serah said:


> Success! The boat is ours, and safely moored in Reed Point Marina. Here's a link to some photos from her haul a while back:
> 
> The boat handles beautifully. She's nimble and handles even pretty big water with ease. There are a few odd things with the rigging (namely that the current ownder used goldbraid as the main halyard, and there's no winch. Which means I'm at the mast standing on a very ****** (icy?) deck pulling on a halyard which refuses to go up any further, as it simply stretches. *sigh* *We can't seem to get the sail up high enough, leaving the boom with a rather severe downward angle.*
> In short, we're thrilled, even if we realize how much of a project boat she truly is going to be.


Congrats on your new to you boat, looks very nice. I guess Indian Arm will be your practice grounds at Reed Point. I can't believe you got yourselves out there in the cold we have had this week, you must eat nails for breakfast to be that tough.
I couldn't help thinking about your stretched halyard dilema. This may not be your case but it happened to me in my first season. I had a similar problem in that I could not get the mainsail all the way up the mast. I thought something was hanging it up in the slugs or perhaps blockage in the mast track, but try as I did the stupid thing just would not go all the way up and the boom was hanging on a slant downwards. So I finally sat down right there at the mast base to ponder my situation and when my eyes glanced along the boom to the boom vang I saw the vang was pulled in real tight and holding the boom down thereby holding the leach of the mainsail tight. No wonder the stupid sail woulddn't go all the way up. So I loosened the vang and the mainsheet as well, then up went the mainsail all the way to the top. DoH, I was a beginner so I did not realize the problem immediately but I have since come across the odd newbie suffering the same experience as me and was able to point out the problem, after which they got a good laugh. It was probably too cold for you to sit out there to troubleshoot the situation but by now you may have already figured it out.
Enjoy your new to you boat, they are wonderful toys, and the $$spending never stops.


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## serah (Jan 26, 2009)

Well, we really didn't have a lot of choice - she had to be brought home soon, as the previous owner (Ahh! how nice to be able to say that instead of current owner!) needed his slip. It was either take her home in the cold (but fair winds) or leave her on transient moorage at easy 50$ a night and quickly eat through any savings we may have made on her. Plus, there's something to be said for pushing yourself - I wonder how much of a mental block it would have created if we'd told ourselves "no, we should wait. It's too rough/cold out today." That would linger in the back of our minds, likely making us hesitant to attempt another roughish crossing. It always amazes me how much of a drogue the "I can't do it" mindset can be...

If only our sail problem could be resolved so easily! The vang was loose, as were the main sheets and pseudo-cunningham. We were pointed dead into the wind, so it wasn't filled as we hoisted. We have the engine off for some much needed TLC (though she ran like a champ! A bit rough to start, but got us the ~70nm home without stalling or anything!) but we'll try to hoist this weekend and see what exactly is going on.

As for the other sails, I'm thrilled with the funny dual-track jib-hoist system (apart from her tendency to flap in the wind while on the hook, and her one jagged edge which tore a hole in my down vest  ) I've never used one before. Apparently, the idea is to be able to drop one sail while hoisting the second. However, the tracks seem to be different sizes? A lot less work than hanking, and much quicker to boot.

I'm very interested in seeing how she compares to the San Juan 24'! That was one of the other boats we'd considered. Apparently, she was designed as a competitor (read: to be a touch faster!) than the San Juan. Give us a few months to coax her back to health, and for me to teach the boy (and admitedly, fully remind myself!) how to sail spin, and we'll challenge you to a Sailnet Battle of the Classes sail-off


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## AdamLein (Nov 6, 2007)

CaptKermie said:


> I was a beginner so I did not realize the problem immediately but I have since come across the odd newbie suffering the same experience as me and was able to point out the problem, after which they got a good laugh.


Hehe, reminds me of the other day when I got a good laugh at the Admiral after she had been frustrated by attempts to check the battery voltage at the motor, but had neglected to take the protective plastic tips off the multimeter first. She got a good laugh at me after I too was frustrated -- because I had neglected to switch on the batteries 

We all miss the obvious now and then.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Did you say it was a sail of a Thunderbird? Best info I can find is that your "P" meas is 30 vs the Tbird's 31 (thats the length of the main along the mast, btw.)

If the sail hasn't been modified that could be your problem right there.

Get yourself a 50' tape measure and check it out....


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## serah (Jan 26, 2009)

I assume the sails are from a Thunderbird - I don't think they still have the T-bird insignia on the sail, but all the bags still have it on them. As I said above, it seems big for the space. However, with the adjustable boom height, perhaps we can make it fit. Is there any disadvantage to pulling the boom down lower? It looks like there's still about 10 inches to the top of the mast from the head of the sail when it's as snug as I can get it. I hope that will be enough to pull it up, but I'm starting to doubt that.

I've not been up the mast yet (we have a few masthead projects - wind indicator, refitting the halyard, possibly running a masthead light) so when I do I'll take some measurements. Actually, there's a question - how does one normally do masthead repairs/inspections on a 24' boat? I've only ever done them on a 42', when I just went up in a bosun's chair or climbing harness. Is it safe to go up on a boat this small, or would it be safer to simply drop the mast (*sigh*)?


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## shawmac (Dec 10, 2007)

Uh oh, looks like we might be in trouble as we don't have a kite to fly! and are sporting some tired sails  And _*YOUR*_ boat looks like a bullet!



serah said:


> I've not been up the mast yet (we have a few masthead projects - wind indicator, refitting the halyard, possibly running a masthead light) so when I do I'll take some measurements. Actually, there's a question - how does one normally do masthead repairs/inspections on a 24' boat? I've only ever done them on a 42', when I just went up in a bosun's chair or climbing harness. Is it safe to go up on a boat this small, or would it be safer to simply drop the mast (*sigh*)?


Oh man, I have been plauged by this question as well! I have actually climbed half way up the mast using my climbing harness and slings (didn't get winched up a halyard) and that was enough of a struggle! I really don't want to drop the mast, but now it looks like our steaming light has finally packed it in 

If you have any quick fixes, pending approval from the boss (girlfriend), the gf's suite balcony overhangs deep water that with the right jockeying and the right tide, is at masthead height (or at least the landlords above is at mid-tide when there is more water). I have also snuck onto the neighbours pier in the dark to replace the bulb in the steaming light :lol:


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

It's safe enough to go up on a chair... make sure the halyard looks up to the task. The biggest problem with little boats is finding enough winch power to haul someone up. Set up another halyard along the mast (preferably rope) so you can pull yourself up and help yourself along. It will be noticeably less stable than the 42 footer up there.

If your sailbags all have a Thunderbird insignia, they may well be from a former sailmaker by that name, rather than meant for a Thunderbird 26. They (Thunderbird sails) were around back in the day. I suspect that you probably have Thunderbird sails, rather than a sail for a Thunderbird..... if you get what I mean!


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