# Urinal plumbed directly overboard ?



## PopeyeGordon (Mar 3, 2011)

My last boat was 25 years old when I bought it. The head was an illegal and smelly mess. Tore out everything and installed a full size portapotti MSD with deck pumpout. No more smells. 

I was left with extra thruhulls and experimented with a urinal tube to greatly extend time between pumpouts. The 5 gallon capacity of the portapotti encouraged this thinking. I found the direct overboard drain very convenient and want to equip my next boat with a urinal. 

In the summer of 2010 I had a routine boarding by the Coast Guard at Friday Harbor in the San Juans. They gave my boat an inspection and found no infractions. I have the receipt to prove it. There were no particular questions about my sanitation installation.

I think this post could result in some interesting positive and negative input and some nuggets of wisdom as well. Mostly male responses I reckon.

First of all, it must be understood that urine is not sewage. Sewage is defined as solids suspended in water. Urine from healthy people is sterile and harmless to the marine environment. That being said, I imagine regional law enforcement could have various definitions of sewage, perhaps requiring urine to be controlled as graywater.

There is at least one supplier of a compact porcelain wall urinal with plumbed flushing valve. This could make for a tasteful installation but I wonder how it could be drained by gravity only, while using a thruhull safely above the boat's waterline.

I have used a 3/4 inch tube with a funnel clamped on the inboard end. Kept a 1/2 gallon jug with a weak vinegar/water solution nearby to provide a flush of the line after each use. Never had any odors this way, never had to risk the public display of a man pissing over the side of the boat, never risked my life falling overboard with my fly unzipped. 

Comments?


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## scottyt (Jul 19, 2008)

in some areas peeing right over board is legal, but go in any container first and you run into legal stuff. 

I personally keep a cup in the head sink and use that and pour it out the sink. its easy to rinse if need be, and the head sink does not get used for anything else ( too small ) so no issues there.

as for urine not being sewage, try to prove that in a court. i would not plum anything like that straight over board.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I have little doubt that a urinal will be considered a marine sanitation device and subject to MSD regulations when sailing within a no-discharge zone. I do not recall those regulations differentiating between forms of human waste.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Incredible


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## downeast450 (Jan 16, 2008)

Bucket and chuck it! The old cedar bucket solution!

Down


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## Allanbc (Apr 19, 2007)

Just use the sink! :laugher


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

Yup, urine unless from an (urinary tract) infected, etc. person is essentially a sterile liquid, even passing straight through sewage plant operations. 
However, it would create great 'economic opportunity' for the legal industry to prevent such 'direct discharge' hence the high probability of economic income through regulation.

Better to control 'everything', dump it into a sewage treatment system where it isnt treated other than by 'buffering' the acid content and only then to become part of the 'effluent' ... and all the 'legal requirements' are then satisfied; The 'legal requirements' being the chief concern rather than scientific/biological truth. Its a costly 'feel good' and 'control' issue.


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## JKCatalina310 (Nov 18, 2010)

*Not advocating for this*

OK, I am not advocating direct discharge of urine as being OK for the marine environment or legal.

However, to the OP question, here is how I would do it.

The "green" movement has resulted in a great product called waterless urinals. A couple of companies (see the previous link) even make a stainless steel, low space unit. If I were going to go about this, I would install the urinal in the head and plumb it to the through hull with a y-valve that could also direct the waste into the holding tank. Thus creating a situation like you have on many older boats.

My friends old boat, a Catalina 25 from the early 80s, had a y-valve set up so that the head could be directed to either dump directly overboard or to the holding tank. Legally when he was out sailing in a no discharge area, the y-valve was supposed to be turned to dump into the tank and the valve disabled in that position. He put a pad lock on the valve to accomplish this. When he was out sailing, the y-valve would typically be in an illegal state but if he saw the coast guard out doing checks he would just duck below and switch it and lock it.

Personally, I don't know what the big deal is. Are marinas really charging that much for a pump out? In my area, the Hingham Harbor Master operates a pump out boat that is free. You call him on the radio and he comes over and pumps you out. Or you put up a pump out flag and he will get you when he comes around during the week.


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

PopeyeGordon said:


> First of all, it must be understood that urine is not sewage.


If it goes into an MSD, it's sewage. You don't get to make up your own definitions.


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## Allanbc (Apr 19, 2007)

JKCatalina310 said:


> Personally, I don't know what the big deal is. Are marinas really charging that much for a pump out? In my area, the Hingham Harbor Master operates a pump out boat that is free. You call him on the radio and he comes over and pumps you out. Or you put up a pump out flag and he will get you when he comes around during the week.


My marina has a pump out next to the fuel dock. It is free for anyone to pull up and use. There is a marine sanitation service that you can hire to come and pump out your boat either on demand or scheduled. My marina also has three mobile manual pump outs that you can wheel to your own boat, pump it out, and wheel it back to the pump out station to dump the the tank.


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

Some people are too lazy, cheap or selfish to play by the rules. The rest of us get to boat and/or work in the filth they can't be bothered to dispose of properly.


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## omaho5 (Jun 5, 2008)

I put a sign up in my urinal that states, "Please do not throw cigarettes into urinal as they get wet and are hard to light."


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## J36ZT (May 18, 2008)

*To discharge or not to discharge*

I think you'll find that if it comes from the human body and goes into a container it can NOT go into the water (legally)...unless treated or in the wide open ocean.

I'm sure Fastbottoms will agree it is DISGUSTING to be cleaning the bottom of a boat and see a brown stain on the hull just below a thruhull. What's even worse is to be swimming next to a "log" with a paper tail.

Back to the OP's question. I'm sure the USCG would give you a ticket if they found your urinal plumbed directly overboard.

In California anyway, the state gives a grant to pumpouts. That's why they're free.

I feel if you can't get your boat to the pumpout, you should pay someone to "suck out your head!" (...and I don't really care if it's done by a pumpout boat or liposuction machine...depending upon which head we're talking about):hothead

Skipper, 
J/36 "Zero Tolerance"


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

J36ZT said:


> In California anyway, the state gives a grant to pumpouts. That's why they're free.


The grants for pumpout stations and pumpout boats are funded by the feds and managed by the states. The stipulation on the grant is that you cannot charge more than $5 or $10 for the use of the pumpout. Most marinas and municipalities that take advantage of the grant do not want to be bothered with the record-keeping and manpower required to run the operation for pay, so they simply offer it as a benefit for their tenants. *That's* why it's free.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

PopeyeGordon said:


> direct overboard drain


That right there is going to be the biggest problem, the first time you get boarded, and a prudent sailor will work on the assumption you WILL get boarded in Florida. From dyed holding tanks to random boardings by local LEOs, the state has gone to war against illegal dumping, and no matter what your misconceptions about the harmlessness of urine, your justifications and pontifications won't get you very far with the guy holding the citation pad.


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## JKCatalina310 (Nov 18, 2010)

*Ever try boatin on Lake George in NY*

Before you can get your permit to have the boat in the water, you have to plug all discharges from the boat. No sinks, no holding tanks, nothing can go into the water. I suspect that if you did the bucket plan on that lake you would end up with a fat ticket if not in jail and your boat confiscated.

Personally, I think it is just plain laziness to not use the holding tank and have it pumped out. I used to be surprised that some of these conversations would come up on the sailing forums and expected things like this from power boaters. Now, nothing really surprises me.


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## knothead (Apr 9, 2003)

The problem is in the name. Call it a tooth-brushing sink for midgets and your problem is solved. 

Seriously, why go through the trouble. Pee in a bottle. Get rid of the holding tank and the msd and go with a bucket and a shore side compost pile. The urine is a great fertilizer and is great for helping the compost pile get hot. 

I think that people who use holding tanks and regular flushing toilets are lazy.


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

knothead said:


> The urine is a great fertilizer...


 Ever seen what dog piss does to your lawn?


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## knothead (Apr 9, 2003)

Fstbttms said:


> Ever seen what dog piss does to your lawn?


Urine diluted by eight parts of water can be applied directly as fertilizer. 
I find it more useful to add it to the compost pile as I have to add moisture to the pile anyway. 
If the dog urine is burning your lawn, you might want to try spraying the area with water a couple times a day. It will soon be the greenest part of your yard.


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## JKCatalina310 (Nov 18, 2010)

knothead said:


> The urine is a great fertilizer and is great for helping the compost pile get hot.
> 
> I think that people who use holding tanks and regular flushing toilets are lazy.


Yes, urine can be used as a fertilizer, but what does not have to do with discharge to the ocean?

Fertilizers, due to the nitrogen content, should not be discharged to the ocean, as they can create growth spurts in micro and macro organisms that can have long term negative effects on oceans.


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## PopeyeGordon (Mar 3, 2011)

As expected my thread has provided some strong opinions.

I neglected to mention the context of my idea, which is that I will be living aboard full time, unable to afford marina rent most of the time. As a singlehander there is always some anxiety about entering a crowded marina and entering just to pump out could be reduced in frequency by disposing of urine before it is contaminated by sewage. That being said, I strongly believe in the value of pumpouts and am sad to hear that in Florida there may be a fee to use one. It's hardly lazyness to avoid making a trip to a dock to dispose of a harmless liquid, probably using fossil fuels in the process.

Using the head sink for urine will likely cause strong smells to develop in the plumbing and nauseate crew not used to that.

I do like the idea of a Y valve on the urinal that diverts to the holding tank. This should pass inspection in saltwater areas as long as it's sealed.

As a retired boat bum on a fixed income I would have little to lose from a fine and might even successfully argue about the definition of sewage not including uncontaminated urine as long as it is not in a context that makes boaters look bad. We all struggle enough with that as it is.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

PopeyeGordon said:


> I neglected to mention the context of my idea, which is that I will be living aboard full time, unable to afford marina rent most of the time...
> As a retired boat bum on a fixed income...


 Poverty is not an explanation, it is an excuse. If you can't afford the occasional pump out, what else can't you afford- proper disposal of used engine oil? decent anchor rode?

Justifying the reason why the rules shouldn't apply to you is the reason we end up with all those rules in the first place, and more every year.


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## knothead (Apr 9, 2003)

JKCatalina310 said:


> Yes, urine can be used as a fertilizer, but what does not have to do with discharge to the ocean?
> 
> Fertilizers, due to the nitrogen content, should not be discharged to the ocean, as they can create growth spurts in micro and macro organisms that can have long term negative effects on oceans.


Exactly, That's why you should pour it on your garden or compost pile. Not pump it out into a system that with the first big rain will probably malfunction and end up dumping millions of gallons of sewage into the bay. 
Don't be lazy. Be responsible for your own byproducts. 
Compost and return it to the earth.


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## jmayton (Sep 27, 2010)

*caution*



Allanbc said:


> Just use the sink! :laugher


Just be sure to take the dishes out before you pee.


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## therapy23 (Jul 28, 2007)

PopeyeGordon said:


> As expected my thread has provided some strong opinions.
> 
> I neglected to mention the context of my idea, which is that I will be living aboard full time, unable to afford marina rent most of the time. As a singlehander there is always some anxiety about entering a crowded marina and entering just to pump out could be reduced in frequency by disposing of urine before it is contaminated by sewage. That being said, I strongly believe in the value of pumpouts and am sad to hear that in Florida there may be a fee to use one. It's hardly lazyness to avoid making a trip to a dock to dispose of a harmless liquid, probably using fossil fuels in the process.
> 
> ...


You would be better off with the dedicated jug-and-dump. Using the sink will not smell up the sink if flushed. Don't ask me but some will tell you if they admit to it. 
I go three miles and pump with abandon.


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## PopeyeGordon (Mar 3, 2011)

Answer to bljones - I would be the last to dispose of motor oil incorrectly! A big reward of boat living is it's low impact which I value highly in an attempt to justify my continued existence on this planet. Actually my goal is to install a solar powered auxilary propulsion system on my boat, using the engine seldom as possible. Unless we're talking about someone who owns a sailboat just to pick up chicks, sailors have a deep enironmental ethic - that's why we sail. No need for the holyer-than-thou attitude.

Many of us are not going into retirement as we planned due to the economy. I will put every last penny into properly equipping a modest old boat and then be at the mercy of social security and Neptune. If you have more resources than this, good for you and hope you believe in helping others less fortunate. 

Being blown aground because of seriously inadequate ground tackle is just Darwin's law weeding out those who should not be on the water in the first place.


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## Allanbc (Apr 19, 2007)

jmayton said:


> Just be sure to take the dishes out before you pee.


And don't let the Admiral catch you doing it!


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

PopeyeGordon said:


> ...sailors have a deep enironmental ethic - that's why we sail.


In a perfect world this would be true. In this world- not so much.


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

PopeyeGordon said:


> It's hardly lazyness to avoid making a trip to a dock to dispose of a harmless liquid, probably using fossil fuels in the process.


As someone who earns his living in the water, I guarantee you'd wish you had gone to the pumpout station if I found you emptying your porta-pottie anywhere near my vicinity, regardless of what was in it.


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## RNC725 (Aug 19, 2010)

*whoa, tempers are flaring...*

Interesting reads for sure. I have an older boat with the choice to discharge either the holding tank or 'outside'. So far we have used the 'legal' way but I cannot swear that I wont ever -- I will always hope I take into consideration everyone else if and when that time comes....

I have been known to 'pee-pee' while diving or swimming from time to time. I have not yet seen or heard those who do flush right out into the anchorage or docks --- hopefully that happens rarely.

So far it's not been an issue for us in using a pump out -- we're never in a hurry (we are sailors, right?) and most folks are always happy to accomodate.

Lets talk more about cruising, good music and wine -- or not -- after all we are Americans and can say w/e we want

fairwinds to all


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## therapy23 (Jul 28, 2007)

Fstbttms said:


> As someone who earns his living in the water, I guarantee you'd wish you had gone to the pumpout station if I found you emptying your porta-pottie anywhere near my vicinity, regardless of what was in it.


Do you ever pee in the water?

I probably would not pee into a wet suit (never had one) but when swimming............

Oh, and on the urine sterile thing. (not you Fstbtms, just saving another post) Sterile to your body, not mine. Not to mention any drugs, hormones etc that turn fishies queer..... errr.....hermaphrodidic.


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## cb32863 (Oct 5, 2009)

Why is it when folks ask these sorts of questions, they are never open to a dissenting view and will bend over backwards to justify their point? Why ask the question if your mind is already made up? What really is the point? Oh and yes, I vote for a no on the direct discharge. You can deal with a pump out every once in a while....


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

therapy23 said:


> Do you ever pee in the water?


Have I pee'd in the water? Of course. But I do not pee in my wetsuit nor do I pee on or near other divers from the dock. I'm not debating whether urine is bad for the environment or not, I'm debating whether somebody else's urine in the water I'm working in is disgusting or not. And the answer is, "Yes, it is very disgusting."


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Popeye, my understanding was as yours. However I recently saw a post from Peggie Hall (aka "The Head Queen") citing the section of USC that governs this. *You* can pee overboard, yes. But once the pee hits some part of the boat, it is now the *vessel* that is discharging the urine, and that's still considered an illegal discharge.

So...plumb it to a blivet and add the usual 'secured' valve. The Pottie Police gonna get you.<G>


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## glassdad (Feb 21, 2009)

If you think urine is sterile so not a problem any more than water is, try peeing in the cockpit of someone's boat and see how they react. How would you react if I peed in your cockpit?


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## PopeyeGordon (Mar 3, 2011)

More interesting feedback. Thank you.

Sterile urine from healthy people has no germs, that's what makes it sterile. The ammonia, minerals and drug residue are always going to find their way back into the environment, at best we delay it in processing plants but the outflow carries our drug residue into the ocean eventually, minus part of the nutrients.

Divers have always been forced to urinate in their wetsuits on longer dives. It harms nothing when the suit is properly rinsed later but may cause a cringe you think about those equipment rentals. 

This thread is about a reality of boating and almost any other topic is more pleaseant to think about. It is easy enough to avoid this by reading other topics instead!


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

PopeyeGordon said:


> This thread is about a reality of boating...


No, this thread is about you attempting to justify your not doing the right thing...


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## PopeyeGordon (Mar 3, 2011)

> If you think urine is sterile so not a problem any more than water is, try peeing in the cockpit of someone's boat and see how they react. How would you react if I peed in your cockpit?


Not sure how the subject of how a head is plumbed turns into a challenge about pissing on someone else's decks but if you have been singlehanding in bad weather you have been forced to do it in your own cockpit at some point.

Nobody's saying here that passed urine is pleaseant like rain and smells like rosewater, just that it is harmless when naturally diluted in the sea and attempts to haul and process it generally do more harm than good. Think why boaters sometimes (I would not condone this) dump their tanks illegally - it is likely because their tank is filled quickly by including urine and extra flush water for the urine. In this case harmful sewage solids are being dumped to make room for more harmless liquids in the tank. No sense in that.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

PopeyeGordon said:


> In this case harmful sewage solids are being dumped to make room for more harmless liquids in the tank. No sense in that.


Both urine and solids dumped from on-board a boat are illegal within an NDZ and illegal within 3 miles unless you have an approved MSD treatment device. You can create your own definition of what urine is, or is not, but it won't get you out of a hefty fine if caught..


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## sealover (Jun 27, 2009)

tinkle, discharge, is it right?
seeing piss in a different light.
I seal mine in a mason jar
and list it on ebay every night.


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## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

What's wrong with a composting toilet that separates solids and liquids? If your at anchor and being discreet when disposing of the urine I don't see the problem. People do it everyday! Fish pee in the water, we can too! I personally wouldn't mind if my neighbor did the same. It's absolutely harmless. Jeesh..........


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## PopeyeGordon (Mar 3, 2011)

*Update to my original thread post*

I just remembered that I was boarded and had a CG inspection last summer. I just added this to page one. The inspection included a look at the portapotti and in the same compartment was the improvised urinal which they had no questions about. Gave me a passing grade.

Thank you for the input. I have learned from this and am sure I will incorporate a Y valve in the installation. Florida is even more strict than the Salish Sea concerning water quality but that is not to say it is lax here.

I got what I wanted in these 4 pages but others may want to vent about this subject. Feel free - Iv'e been pissed on before (pardon the pun)


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## jrd22 (Nov 14, 2000)

First, pumpouts are few and very far between in our neck of the woods but they are free.
Second, in BC it is perfectly legal to direct discharge except in a handful of no discharge zones. The city of Victoria has until recently (and may still) directly discharged all sewage into the Strait of Juan de Fuca.
Third, I didn't know a bunch of grown men could get so worked up over a little pee pee, sheesh.
Fourth, we always keep our valve switched to the tank until in a legal place to pump it, overboard or a pumpout.


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## gulfcoastcruiser (Apr 14, 2008)

I used to belong to a very informal sailing club on a lake. We had a little A-Frame clubhouse on the dock with a shower stall in the corner. Inside the shower stall was a funnel with a tube attached that led below the dock.

I never saw a problem with it and apparently neither did anyone else. It was there at least 20 years before the marina tore that dock down and rebuilt it with no clubhouse. The funnel was not the reason for no clubhouse being rebuilt either.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Unfortunately, the way the law is worded, using any equipment other than what was naturally provided to you when you were born means you're using an MSD, and discharging such overboard is illegal, at least in the US waters within the THREE MILE limit AFAIK.



PopeyeGordon said:


> My last boat was 25 years old when I bought it. The head was an illegal and smelly mess. Tore out everything and installed a full size portapotti MSD with deck pumpout. No more smells.
> 
> I was left with extra thruhulls and experimented with a urinal tube to greatly extend time between pumpouts. The 5 gallon capacity of the portapotti encouraged this thinking. I found the direct overboard drain very convenient and want to equip my next boat with a urinal.
> 
> ...


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

jrd22 said:


> Third, I didn't know a bunch of grown men could get so worked up over a little pee pee, sheesh.
> .


Actually I am in the camp that thinks the discharge rules are a bogus path to "feel good legislation" and political sound bites. The fact that most cities dump far more waste into the bays after each rain storm then every boater could in ten seasons is just hypocrisy. I can flush my toilet at home and send it straight into the bay but on my boat.. Give me a break.. I just don't want to see someone get a huge fine by misinterpreting the rules or making their own rules up..


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

jrd22

We still do.


LandLocked66c

Fish do more than pee in the water but they have a Federal exemption.


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

Get a shower curtain and hang it off/around the swim ladder. Then you can pee into the water directly, in broad daylight without anyone seeing you. Perfectly legal.

But check to make sure there are no divers or swimmers around and don't do it in confined waters please!

Regards,
Brad


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## Windwardbow (Jan 6, 2011)

Wow! Funny thread, easy to see who usually spends less than 3 or 4 hours at a time on their boat, and who lives on it.


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## SimonV (Jul 6, 2006)

Fstbttms said:


> Have I pee'd in the water? Of course. But I do not pee in my wetsuit nor do I pee on or near other divers from the dock. I'm not debating whether urine is bad for the environment or not, I'm debating whether somebody else's urine in the water I'm working in is disgusting or not. And the answer is, "Yes, it is very disgusting."


I find it hard to belive you have never peed in your wet suit, dry suit yes but nothing wrong in a wet suit. On a realy cold dive....bliss.


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

SimonV said:


> I find it hard to belive you have never peed in your wet suit, dry suit yes but nothing wrong in a wet suit.


I didn't say I have never done it. What I said is I *don't* do it. Only takes once or twice to figure out it doesn't keep you warm, makes your suit stink and is just basically a disgusting, dirty thing to do.

But hey- knock yourself out.


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## PopeyeGordon (Mar 3, 2011)

*Piss'in in the wind*

I was a corporate peon for 30 years. Constantly pissed on. Now it's my turn to go piss in the ocean.


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## jfurlong (Apr 16, 2010)

pee to the lee


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

We all know this, but I just had to look up how ridiculous this really is.

Narragansett Bay reportedly has 35 wastewater plants that discharge into the Bay. I researched only 2 of them and quit. One dumps 200 million gallons of primary treated sewage PER DAY into the Bay, the other dumps 116 million gallons per day. Primary treatment settles 60% of the solids and treats with chlorine, then out it goes.

If I did my math correctly, that the equivalent of 126 million gallons per day of raw sewage with some bleach in it, from just 2 of the 35 plants.

Can you possibly imagine how insignificant marine sanitation is? If you work in the water, you're already in it, whether the guy down the slip discharges or not.


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## lapworth (Dec 19, 2008)

Maine Sail said:


> Both urine and solids dumped from on-board a boat are illegal within an NDZ and illegal within 3 miles unless you have an approved MSD treatment ..


Would this make cleaning off bird poo illegal? I thought everyone knew not to swim in a harbor.


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## GraemeInCanada (Jun 17, 2008)

Other than not discharging in a small anchorage I would just have good edict in place. For all those that are worrying that pee is gross, tell that to the fish, whales, birds, crustaceans, sharks, seals, otters, walruses etc etc etc. Once urine hits the water is just about gone in a flurry of dilution. You'd never know. 

Again, small anchorages, not good edict. Would it matter to the area? Sure if a thousand people peed at once, but overall no. Logs with tails though.. that's just awful.

Dog pee on grass causing it to burn is the sign of a bad diet for the dog. Feed it proper veggies and higher grade beef and you won't see that issue ever again. Humans eat far better and if you peed on the lawn nothing would happen other than maybe it would turn a bit greener soon.


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

SimonV said:


> I find it hard to belive you have never peed in your wet suit, dry suit yes but nothing wrong in a wet suit. On a realy cold dive....bliss.


Actually, I find it's better to keep that warm reservior of water inside you. As you cool it will keep you warm from the inside.

Regards,
Brad


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

Look- I don't walk into your office and take a leak on the carpet. Extend to me in my workplace the same courtesy, please. Any argument defending pumping overboard is bullsh*t rationalization, IMHO.


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## knothead (Apr 9, 2003)

Fstbttms said:


> Look- I don't walk into your office and take a leak on the carpet. Extend to me in my workplace the same courtesy, please. Any argument defending pumping overboard is bullsh*t rationalization, IMHO.


You keep referring to the ocean as your workplace. I get that but the argument only goes so far and you're stretching it. You can't relate an office to the freaking ocean.

I drove trucks for years and I used to argue the same way. If you are going to share the freeway with me then by god you should have to abide by the same rules as I do. 
You get drug tested regularly. You are restricted as to how many hours you can drive successively and in a time period. Etc, etc. After all, most of the accidents could be attributed to somebody in a car doing something stupid in the vicinity of a big rig. Guess how far I got with that line of reasoning.

I single hand all the time. My boat self steers very well. With the tiller comb I can easily have enough time to relieve myself when needed. But I sure as hell am not going to go below when I can simply walk up to the leeward shrouds. I've done it all my life and will continue to do so. Just like sailors have been doing since time-immemorial.

It's not your ocean just because you make money swimming in it. Just like it's not the truck driver's road just because they make money driving on it.

The environmental impact of taking a leak over board is virtually non existent. I find a lot of other things that people do to be a lot more offensive. 
Such as burning a hundred gallons of fuel to go out on a Saturday to drink beer and push up giant wakes just for the thrill of going fast. 
Such as stinking up half the marina trying to pump out the cesspool that they been floating around with just because they are too short sighted or ill informed to use a composting head. 
But I don't have any right to tell these people what to do any more than anyone has a right to tell me I can't pee in the ocean.


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## Silvio (Nov 10, 2010)

SimonV said:


> I find it hard to belive you have never peed in your wet suit, dry suit yes but nothing wrong in a wet suit. On a realy cold dive....bliss.


I agree, don't pee in your dry suit... nobody will sit next to you on the ride back. 

Told my sons when they started diving that I knew two kids of divers, those that pee in their wet suits and those that lie about peeing intheir wet suits.

So to the OP I guess I reccomend sailing while wearing a wet suit.


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## FishSticks (Nov 16, 2007)

Following his tumble over the lifelines and subsequent rescue by alert shipmates Jay agrees to abide by the rules and keep one hand on the ship at all times.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Fstbttms said:


> Look- I don't walk into your office and take a leak on the carpet. Extend to me in my workplace the same courtesy, please. Any argument defending pumping overboard is bullsh*t rationalization, IMHO.


I'm not condoning illegal discharge. However, you should check out the municipal discharge in your area. I suspect it already far exceeds anything a thousand boats could put in there with you.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"I don't walk into your office and take a leak on the carpet. "
And have you housebroken all the fish, birds, seals, and shoreline animals? Or do you get a bulk rate on pampers for them?<G>

WC Fields would hve told you, you're just working in the wrong medium, because fa-fish fa-**** in it.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Minnewaska said:


> I'm not condoning illegal discharge. However, you should check out the municipal discharge in your area. I suspect it already far exceeds anything a thousand boats could put in there with you.


But they aren't dumping it right in the marina. You see, THAT is where the whole "well-the-big-city-is-doing-it-so-why-can't-I!?!" falls apart.

Let's not forget the inevitable escalation that occurs, which is how we ended up with these laws in the first place- you decide to whizz overboard, all the other boats decide to do it, then some genius decides that the "fish pee in the water, so it must be okay" theory also has the "fish poop in the water, too" corollary, so he decides to fertilize the mooring., then, somebody decides that if it is okay for one guy then he should be able to do it too, and...

So, what is the only argument FOR direct discharge? Pumpouts are inconvenient and sometimes cost money.

I'll make you a deal- you don't piss beside my boat, I won't call you cheap and lazy. Sound fair?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

bljones said:


> But they aren't dumping it right in the marina. You see, THAT is where the whole "well-the-big-city-is-doing-it-so-why-can't-I!?!" falls apart.
> 
> Let's not forget the inevitable escalation that occurs, which is how we ended up with these laws in the first place- you decide to whizz overboard, all the other boats decide to do it, then some genius decides that the "fish pee in the water, so it must be okay" theory also has the "fish poop in the water, too" corollary, so he decides to fertilize the mooring., then, somebody decides that if it is okay for one guy then he should be able to do it too, and...
> 
> ...


Back off. I have a 77 gallon holding tank and no need to dump overboard. I was simply pointing out that anyone that thinks swimming in water that someone pee'd in is gross, already is. So, how about an apology. Sound fair?


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## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

Minnewaska said:


> Back off. I have a 77 gallon holding tank and no need to dump overboard. I was simply pointing out that anyone that thinks swimming in water that someone pee'd in is gross, already is. So, how about an apology. Sound fair?


There will be no apologies permitted on Sailnet, thank you very much!


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## LaGitana25 (Feb 24, 2011)

I think this post is quite silly really. Sure, dumping sewage into a marina or near shore is disgusting, but urine is another thing completely. Not only is it sterile, which has been cited many times, but I guarantee by the time someone's half pint of urine reaches any water you will be in direct contact with, it will have dissipated to un-registrable amounts. Say your urine has 500 ppm of some antibiotic you have been taking (Oh no, the fright!!!!), by the time it teaches your boat, which is 50ft away in 15 ft of water (this equates to 220,000 GALLONS), there will be only .00014 ppm of that antibiotic. Sure, I would not want someone to urinate in my cockpit or on my deck even, but have I been in the water and urinated? Absolutely. Have all of you? Not a doubt in my mind. I am also aware that when I am swimming around people, there is the undeniable fact that some of them have done the same, not to mention the other foul residuals clinging to their bodies that are now in the water around me. This is also ignoring the fact that the waterways near marinas are not exactly pristine. All the run-off, chemicals, human and animal waste... I think human urine is a bit of a small problem in the larger picture.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

No need for an apology from from bljones.


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## therapy23 (Jul 28, 2007)

I apologize for reading any of this.


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## sealover (Jun 27, 2009)

Much adieu about taking a dinger
over the rail right from your thinger
This thread is like beating a dead horse
But everyone is still reading, of course
I liken it to an episode of Springer


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## sealover (Jun 27, 2009)

Sorry, once again. This thread just brings out the bathroom stall poet in me...


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

OK - I'll play.....


Apologizing for not locking this thread!


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## jrd22 (Nov 14, 2000)

I apologize for even thinking about posting again in this thread.


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## genieskip (Jan 1, 2008)

Old boats, I mean boats at least 40 or so years, historically had their heads on the port side. It was a tradition based on the fact that you could count on the head discharge thru hull coming out that side and therefore you always went swimming on the starboard side. A place like Great Salt Pond on Block Island, with a narrow inlet and hundreds of boats inside could get interesting on crowded occasions, such as the early Block Island race weeks or St Georges Harbor on Bermuda when the racing fleet was in with eight or more crew aboard each boat. 

I'm glad that some of those problems have been rectified but I do pee over the side much of the time unless I am in a marina or in a very restricted harbor. And most people do too. And if I'm spending a day at the beach and there are no toilets handy I pee in the ocean there. Not in a lake or in a pool, but if I'm looking at three thousand miles of ocean to Europe, I do what come naturally. And I'm willing to bet most people reading this have done the same. I also fill the jug on my composting toilet when in restricted waters and dump it overboard when far enough offshore - sometimes my navigation is a little fuzzy about what three miles really is. Why, I think I even peed overboard when only two miles offshore. 

I thought of the funnel to an unused thru hull idea myself. I remember an old two engine Navy prop cargo plane nicknamed the bugsmasher (I don't remember its proper name). They had just that system. You went aft and pulled a funnel connected to a hose out of a locker and peed into the air. That's about as bad as peeing in the water isn't it? I do think that peeing overboard in rough weather is unsafe so I'd like a funnel connected to the water so it can be used when bouncing around in the ocean, without filling up my jug, which can be messy to empty in rough weather. I haven't done it because I haven't figured out how to do it with adequate safety for water coming in, not pee going out.

A little common sense goes a long way. Don't tell me that peeing in water a mile off the beach is the same as peeing in your cockpit, that's nonsense. But don't tell me you secretly pump out at night in a crowded harbor, that's uncivil as well as blatantly illegal. As I said before, come on guys, a little common sense and sense of proportion.


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## SimonV (Jul 6, 2006)

Well
YouTube - Life Guard ~ Toilet Break


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## Silvio (Nov 10, 2010)

*hahahahaha*



SimonV said:


> Well
> YouTube - Life Guard ~ Toilet Break


One of the best ever from Jamie Kennedy! 
Thanks for the laugh.


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## Windwardbow (Jan 6, 2011)

SimonV, I love it, thanks for the laugh.


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## micheck (Sep 29, 2010)

The best and least expensive concept to clean up a stream is to require that a city's intake be located downstream of it's outflow. I think that the same concept could be employed with the urinal plumbing problem.


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## annestewart (Apr 26, 2011)

Thank-you PopeyeGordon! Well stated and we hope to the same on our boat. It saves a lot of space, and for the "black-water" ie sewage we will use a composting toilet.

In some of the bigger or longer races holding tank issues are a real issue. Here we have the LakeOntario 300. Imagine a boat of 8 people for 3 days on Lake Ontario without sewage discharges? How big a tank would you need? and how heavy would this be? If only every boat had a urinal!


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## JordanH (Dec 13, 2008)

annestewart said:


> T
> In some of the bigger or longer races holding tank issues are a real issue. Here we have the LakeOntario 300. Imagine a boat of 8 people for 3 days on Lake Ontario without sewage discharges? How big a tank would you need? and how heavy would this be? If only every boat had a urinal!


... actually, the boat wouldn't be any heavier since you only converted water. Any liquid was already on the boat in plastic bottles or a fleshy biped, so if it is converted to urine, it's still on the boat but now in a holding tank. You may need a larger holding tank, but it wouldn't be any heavier.

a few years ago, I was talking to a marine police officer in Toronto. He told me that anywhere in the Toronto harbour (not just inner harbour, but Humber-to-Bluffs) they have to treat any dive like a contaminated dive site. Whether he was grandstanding or not, it seems plausible. After all, the sewage treatment plant dumps into the Humber river, and with anything but an east wind, you can see the current take it STRAIGHT to the inner harbour. A little boater urine is nothing in comparison. uke


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## bjslife (Oct 28, 2009)

OK my 2 cents. 1 Why is it ok for cities to pump septic into the ocean less than 3 miles out (treated my a*s)? 2 If you have ever went diving in a wet suit YOU have peed in it. 3 Peeing overboard is normal for most people that dont have a silver spoon in their mouth. And hey doesnt the tide move in the ocean and bays to change the water? 4 So im understanding that i can pee right overboard but if i pee into a container then pour it overboard the pee police will get me, oh also im supposed to use 5 bucks in diesel to warm the engine and motor to go pump out my pee(walk up the dock and use the free public restroom for #2) and the exhaust is better for the environment then the pee. 6 I am so surprised at how many people are acting like they have never peed in the ocean (oh what shame to do that). 7 So bottom line is im sorry i read this and am surprised at how childish some of these rich yuppies are (have a few more top shelf drinks and go swimming to go pee) i like 2 buck chuck. fair winds and i wont pee on your boat if you dont pee on mine and there's no size limit on brown trout lol.


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