# I've narrowed my next boat down...



## eMKay (Aug 18, 2007)

After 2 years of research, and 2 years of sailing 2 small boats, we have agreed on a budget ($20G's), A size (27-28ft), A type (modern open interior, inboard, wheel, well built, performance secondary to quality/comfort/appearance) and a time frame for purchase (when the garage is paid off, next fall or following spring, so 1-1.5 years)

The winners are (in order of desirability) (Edited September 26th 2008): 
Hunter 27 ('05-current, budget doubled)
Catalina 28 - Might be very hard to find one within budget, willing to spend a little more
Catalina 270
Pearson 28-2 - Awesome interior, great looking, well built? I need info on this
Pearson 27 - " """""" " "" """"""
Precision 27/28 (edited to add this, have yet to see one in my price range though)
Com-Pac 27 - It's so pretty, but maybe it's too slow? 
Ericson 28+ does not have the open interior, but is well built, and fast


Older boats that would be acceptable if they're in excellent condition, willing to pay less money up front but invest in things like engine, sails, stuff like that.

Sabre 28
Ericson 27
Ericson 29
Catalina 27


----------



## BarryL (Aug 21, 2003)

Hello,

How did you decide that 27-28' was the right size? IMHO, there isn't THAT much difference between 28 and 30.

Also, why did you eliminate the Newport 28 (and 30), O'day 28, S2, C&C 27 and 29 (the 29 is really 28'), Beneteau, etc. ?

IMHO, most production boats are more similar than different. I don't have a tremendous amount of experience, but I have sailed a Catalina 30, O'day 30, Newport 28, Pearson 30, C&C 34, and an O'day 35. I have also been aboard a whole lot more boats. While there are differences between them, I don't know why someone would exclude one. If you were looking for a long distance cruiser, or a high performance race boat, or a certain type of look, I would understand. For a basic cruiser / racer, I don't think there is that much differences.

Barry


----------



## eMKay (Aug 18, 2007)

BarryL said:


> Hello,
> 
> How did you decide that 27-28' was the right size? IMHO, there isn't THAT much difference between 28 and 30.
> 
> ...


There is a difference in cost between a 28' and a 30'. If I went larger, I would have to go older, which brings me to your second question, the answer is interior design.


----------



## bogdog (Sep 8, 2007)

I've seen all the boats you mention and have sailed on most of them. Some of the best values (boat for the money) have been the Pearson 30 and 27s. We pasted up a nice P30 last year for under $10K because it had a tiller and the Irwin we bought had a wheel and a nicer interior . The PO had money troubles and was willing (needing) to sell. Still think I should have bought it and done a little work, and re-sold it but it was over in MI and I'm in WI.


----------



## arf145 (Jul 25, 2007)

I've been a Pearson 28-2 owner (along with my wife, my brother, and his wife) for the last year and really like the boat--shoot, I love the boat, but no use getting gushy here.

I had similar thoughts to yours regarding size vs. newness vs. $$ I was the driver of the "let's buy a sailboat" bandwagon, and needed to find something that would please me and the group. I aimed at the Pearson 28-2 because I had read some decent reviews about its sailing capabilities, it has a very nice interior, aft head with shower, wheel steering, swim ladder, hot water, and diesel (and the 27-2 is similar in many respects). Plus, I saw one and it grabbed me.

I think the quality is very good--decent hardware on it, ball seacocks, backing plates on all major deck fixtures, Yanmar diesel, lead keel (except the shoal version). Of course, all sorts of stuff can be wrong with a 20-yr-old boat no matter how it started out, but we only had a couple of suspect spots in our deck and zero blisters on the bottom.

I suspect that others will tell you that it is the upkeep that matters more than the years, and to a large degree, they'd be right. Ours was a neglected boat--not abused, just not kept up for say the last 5 or 8 years-- and what I've learned is that at 20 years, a lot of parts that were never replaced are just about coming due for replacement. Head hoses stink, running rigging has run out, UV has had its way with plastic line clutches (handles snap off!), portlights, instrument covers, deck plate covers, navigation lights, etc. I seem to be replacing much of that stuff now.

If you can find a boat that has had some quality replacement/upkeep work done you'll be ahead. So you can go back to 1977 and get some length and you still might have a _newer_ boat than a 1987, if the 77 has had a lot of work done. Of course, some stuff, like a diesel, is more likely with the newer boat. And if you like a certain look, then you like that look.

Have fun.


----------



## nk235 (Apr 8, 2007)

Did you consider a Tartan 28? Cream of the crop ones in perfect shape with all updated gear come in about $30k but in this market you could prob pick up a decent one for around your price range. 

I friend of mine had one and we did a lot of cruising on it. Very solid, good build quality, had decent performance but what one of the things I liked most about it was that it felt like a larger boat especially in the interior.


----------



## eMKay (Aug 18, 2007)

nk235 said:


> Did you consider a Tartan 28? Cream of the crop ones in perfect shape with all updated gear come in about $30k but in this market you could prob pick up a decent one for around your price range.
> 
> I friend of mine had one and we did a lot of cruising on it. Very solid, good build quality, had decent performance but what one of the things I liked most about it was that it felt like a larger boat especially in the interior.


They have the same 2 cabin interior most other 70's boat have, like my second list of older boats, which I do not like.


----------



## Delirious (Dec 16, 2001)

My opinion of the Pearsons is high. We owned a P27 for many years. The Precision 27 is a close clone of the Pearson (though Mr. Taylor may argue that). You'll not be giiving up much in performance among similarly capable boats.

I'd opt for the P28 if I had it to do over as the table in the 27 can be a nuisance. It's never where you want it and has to be moved to make up the v-berth.

Keep your eye open for Sabre and Tartan in your size range. If you can live with a fin you'll get great returns to windward. May take a new suit of sails but they are worthy of some reconditioning to make up into great sailboats.

Don't be too eager to sacrifice performance. Most of the boats on your list will handle similar conditions to the same outcome. It's the quality of the rig and gear to look out for. Cruisers tend to be undercanvassed and may have additional rudder buttressing (skegs, etc) and a three-bladed prop that will drag a bit. There will be times when you want to fetch up a specific anchorage before dark or skirt a point to windward and you'll curse a sluggish boat.

If you truly don't care about performance (to the point of maybe showing up on charts and notice to mariner bulletins as a channel marker) you can find great quality in the Bayfield line.

Charlie P.


----------



## arf145 (Jul 25, 2007)

Delirious said:


> If you truly don't care about performance (to the point of maybe showing up on charts and notice to mariner bulletins as a channel marker) you can find great quality in the Bayfield line.
> Charlie P.


Good one!


----------



## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Assuming the C28 is the floorplan you are after, ie 2 cabin rear head, another boat to look at is the Jeanneau Arcadia- 84-86 build dates. It is listed as a 30' boat, but in reality, a short 30 or ave 29, or long 28. Later models were classified as the Sun Dream 28 from 87 to about 90 or there abouts. Another that is similar is the Bene First 28.5 and 30.5 IIRC. The 28.5 should work too. 

Most European builders were building the aft head, 2 cabin layout like the C28 before they were here in the states. So older Jeanneaus and Bene's from the Mid 80s may be something to look at. Arcadia's will sell for 15-24K depending upon condition etc. A slightly bigger version more of them in NA is the Attalia.

I should put in a note, I own an Arcadia, we luv it for what it is. 

marty


----------



## hasuehounds (Jun 27, 2008)

mike
there is a pristine fully restored ful keel gulfstar in oriental, the owner redid it and will negotaite he wants $50k and its a dream, all new mast, all new engine , intstruments and white blue trim its a beauty
he is representing it, let meknow hes a nice guy spent a year at this project its a super nice boat and sails well and in your size range

Kathleen
s/v legacy in oriental nc


----------



## anthony11 (Aug 19, 2008)

eMKay said:


> There is a difference in cost between a 28' and a 30'


.. and moorage -- a 28' slip may cost less than a 30' or 32' slip (I've seen a C&C 30 that the marina insisted was >30' and thus charged as if 32'). Also less to haul out, paint, etc. It's easy to upsell oneself incrementally in length, only to find the annual cost doubling compared to where you started out.


----------



## Delirious (Dec 16, 2001)

We transiented at a marina that insisted the boat's length was measured with a tape along the gunnel from the tip of the bow pulpit or anchor (whichever stuck out further) along the rub rail and around the bend to the middle of the transom! Pirates are not gone, they just opened marinas.


----------



## eMKay (Aug 18, 2007)

Yo yo yo, lookit what might be coming up for sale near me at a reasonable price. I just went down to RCR's open house (free food, free beer, I'm THERE!) And I talked to the broker dude, he tried pushing a new boat of course, that's his job, but when I mentioned what I WANT he suggested this one, which is on my list. The owner had it out a grand total of TWO times this year and is not selling yet, but he says they are close to it. Sooo, I could wait 2 years and buy a NEW Hunter 27, or buy this thing NOW (well, more likely before spring). And maybe buy the Hunter later. I looked at the Beneteau 31 (again), the 34, and the Hunter 31 and 33. What I get from those boats is too much really cheap veneer, and way too much crap crammed into too small a boat. That is why I love the Hunter 27, there is barely any wood, so it's bright and airy, and open. The Pearson 27 has nearly the same size interior, nice and open but with GOOD QUALITY WOOD, it's beautiful inside, anyway, here it is, anyone familiar with this particular boat? I already PM'ed Delirious about his old one.


----------



## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

You know Mike,

It can be dangerous showing pic of a boat that might come up for sale...............by the way, I have a new boat................A Pearson 27 named "Lady Jane" bought it from the owner an hour ago!.........................

No not really, but, not to quash your dreams or some such thing, but that could happen, and if "lady jane" is as pretty and well kept as the pic shows, others will be after her as you would probably like to be. She is probably one of those, "keep you mouth shut" until you have the first option, pay for her, and she is yours. Now open your fat trap on what a beautiful boat you bought!

Good luck on getting her, or another equal in the near future.

marty


----------



## hasuehounds (Jun 27, 2008)

marty 
good advise, I wouldnt brag on a new boat till the ink on the paper work was dry
but that is just me

Kathleen
s/v legacy


----------



## eMKay (Aug 18, 2007)

blt2ski said:


> You know Mike,
> 
> It can be dangerous showing pic of a boat that might come up for sale...............by the way, I have a new boat................A Pearson 27 named "Lady Jane" bought it from the owner an hour ago!.........................
> 
> ...


Well, #1 the boat is not for sale, #2 it's not nearly as nice as the pic indicates, I just got back from taking some more, and I can post those too  Needs new running rigging, needs all hardware resealed, needs new sails, and the deck gelcoat needs to be sanded, polished, repeat. Needs new screens, either new ports or the plastic polished, also resealed, the compass binnacle is the same story. Also the vinyl stripes are all cracked so they need to be peeled off and redone. It's mostly cosmetic stuff but pictures never reveal what a boat really needs.

This shows the anchor locker damage, rigging, hardware seal issues, and gelcoat









Ports, companionway, screens


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Mike-

what happened to the H27??? Did you finally come to your senses???


----------



## eMKay (Aug 18, 2007)

sailingdog said:


> Mike-
> 
> what happened to the H27??? Did you finally come to your senses???


Nope, both boats are on my list, I have not bought anything yet.


----------



## eMKay (Aug 18, 2007)

blt2ski said:


> You know Mike,
> 
> It can be dangerous showing pic of a boat that might come up for sale...............


There, I edited the good pic, happy?


----------



## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

*MIssing one of the best 27' buys*

I have surveyed most of the boats mentioned in this thread and am surprised that you have not considered one of the best built of the lot ..... check out a CS27.


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Ah, Canadian Sailcraft 27 - a good choice. Canada builds great sailboats and has for decades. Their engines seem pretty small though; only 8 Hp or so.
They do have a roomy feeling to them, considering their 27 ft. size. [Wish my C&C had as much interior room]
Some of them have even had wheel steering installed. Dee draft keel is a comfortable 5'2" . The galley area gives more room than most 27 foot sailboats and the headroom is superb [buy I'm only 5'8" tall anyway].
Final word, just check it out for yourself. Many are available around Ontario.

S/V Doodles
C&C 27


----------



## GaryHLucas (Mar 24, 2008)

Why does everyone want a wheel? In a boat under 30 feet you don't need any possible mechanical advantage. I specifically looked at boats with out wheels. Way less mechanical crap, lots more feel that helps you sail in the groove, and lots more cockpit space when in port. Do people jsut want it to drive like a car?

A couple of weeks ago I was sailing with a buddy on his Capri 23 with four of us. I just had eye surgery so I couldn't sail my own boat. Another guy was steering and it was kind of a gusty day. The boat wasn't sailing all that well but no one said anything. When everyone was trying to get a bite to eat I took the tiller for a bit, and just naturally felt the groove. After about 15 minutes, the guy who had been steering said "Jeez, way to make a guy look bad!" I hadn't put any effort into steering, a tiller just seems to let me feel what the boat is doing.


----------



## eMKay (Aug 18, 2007)

boatpoker said:


> I have surveyed most of the boats mentioned in this thread and am surprised that you have not considered one of the best built of the lot ..... check out a CS27.


It does not fit my requirements as stated in my first post.


----------



## eMKay (Aug 18, 2007)

GaryHLucas said:


> Why does everyone want a wheel? In a boat under 30 feet you don't need any possible mechanical advantage. I specifically looked at boats with out wheels. Way less mechanical crap, lots more feel that helps you sail in the groove, and lots more cockpit space when in port. Do people jsut want it to drive like a car?
> 
> A couple of weeks ago I was sailing with a buddy on his Capri 23 with four of us. I just had eye surgery so I couldn't sail my own boat. Another guy was steering and it was kind of a gusty day. The boat wasn't sailing all that well but no one said anything. When everyone was trying to get a bite to eat I took the tiller for a bit, and just naturally felt the groove. After about 15 minutes, the guy who had been steering said "Jeez, way to make a guy look bad!" I hadn't put any effort into steering, a tiller just seems to let me feel what the boat is doing.


This has already been covered earlier, it is for convenience for my passengers, as well as ease of control for my wife.


----------



## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Many CS27's have a wheel


----------



## eMKay (Aug 18, 2007)

boatpoker said:


> Many CS27's have a wheel


Yeah, as do many boats that size, why it's not on the main list is it's old style interior. I'm not doubting it's a quality boat, it's just an old boat.


----------



## WouldaShoulda (Oct 7, 2008)

GaryHLucas said:


> Why does everyone want a wheel? In a boat under 30 feet you don't need any possible mechanical advantage.


A tiller-man I be!!


----------



## Delirious (Dec 16, 2001)

With a wheel you can steer from a comfortable position without effort and not have to leave half the cockpit clear for the tiller sweep. With the simple little wheel brake you can stiffen up the wheel just enough to allow "self-steering" (under the helmsman's watchful eye) by balancing out the helm. Same as a tiller & bungee.

It's true that you don't get the tactile feedback of weather helm, but your knotmeter will tell you when you have trimmed well to compensate. If you mark top-dead-center you get a visual of how much helm you are feeding in.

Edson has made a gozillion wheel systems now and some of the early perceived problems are way behind us. My dad would never own a car with an automatic transmission "because of all the problems they have".


----------



## WouldaShoulda (Oct 7, 2008)

*Tiller!!*

More Till-arrrrrrrr!!


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

What pale white legs the helmsman has...


----------



## eMKay (Aug 18, 2007)

Yeah, see, with a wheel those chicken legs would be blocked by the pedestal.


----------



## WouldaShoulda (Oct 7, 2008)

Exactly!!

In boats -30ft those wheels just take up too much pale, chicken leg-room!!


----------



## Wannafish (Mar 25, 2004)

bogdog said:


> I've seen all the boats you mention and have sailed on most of them. Some of the best values (boat for the money) have been the Pearson 30 and 27s. We pasted up a nice P30 last year for under $10K because it had a tiller and the Irwin we bought had a wheel and a nicer interior . The PO had money troubles and was willing (needing) to sell. Still think I should have bought it and done a little work, and re-sold it but it was over in MI and I'm in WI.


What's wrong with Michigan?
It only takes a few days to make it across Lake Michigan!


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Hi Mike:

Having spent the past 6 months or so looking for a boat, we finally purchased a 1992 Com-Pac 27/2. We've been out of sailing for the past 36 years (last boat was a Person Aerial 26 ft.) and wanted another quality built boat. By quality I mean, no core (foam, plywood, edge grain balsa) anywhere and no chopper gun layups. The Com-Pac core is bi-axial & tri-axial glass non-woven, then hand layed up woven glass overtop, etc. etc. Nothing to rot, should any water ever infiltrate. Also, all thru the hulls are Marelon marine sea cocks, not gate valves, bronze port lights, etc.

Others boats we were interested in were Cape Dory's, Island Packets, etc., all heavy hand lay-ups and nice craft. BTW, the Com-Pac is a very nice sailing craft with traditional interior styling, but not a racing boat. 

Boat selection seems dependent upon ones utlimate usage. We are interested in cruising, weekending, daysailing and taking the grandkids along occassionally. 

Whatever you decide upon, please spend the money for a COMPLETE Professional Marine Survey, and also a diesel auxilary survey if that's the type power plant installed. FYI, most surveyors do not survey the standing rigging and one would need to hire a rigger in order to properly check that aspect.

I find it's preferable to really take your time in selecting (be honest about your needs versus wants) the vessel to be considered (be it a boat or personal aircraft), then have it completely surveyed. It's cheaper to spend more for a very well maintained vessel (Bristol shape) than it is to need to fix major items. Otherwise I think it's penny wise and pound foolish!

I don't understand why you want a wheel (ours has one but personal preferance is a tiller) as it's just more complexity/potential future probelms. I think wheels shouldn't be on boats under 35 - 40 ft., but that's just me.

At any rate good luck in your selection. Remember, there's always another deal around another corner, don't rush !

Regards,

Gary


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

GMarcus said:


> Hi Mike:
> 
> Having spent the past 6 months or so looking for a boat, we finally purchased a 1992 Com-Pac 27/2. We've been out of sailing for the past 36 years (last boat was a Person Aerial 26 ft.) and wanted another quality built boat. By quality I mean, no core (foam, plywood, edge grain balsa) anywhere and no chopper gun layups. The Com-Pac core is bi-axial & tri-axial glass non-woven, then hand layed up woven glass overtop, etc. etc. Nothing to rot, should any water ever infiltrate. Also, all thru the hulls are Marelon marine sea cocks, not gate valves, bronze port lights, etc.


Don't know where you got the idea that quality boats were only made up of solid glass... that's about as stupid an idea as I've ever heard. Many of the high-end builders are making cored-laminate boats. Some are even making cored-laminate hulls. Most multihulls are made using cored laminates too.

A properly designed cored laminate makes a much nicer boat than you could possibly make with only solid glass. A cored deck is lighter and stiffer than a solid deck of the same weight. It is also going to be quieter and warmer, since the core material acts as an insulator of sorts to some degree, far better than a solid deck in any case. By reducing the weight of the boat's topsides, cabintop, and deck, you can move weight down to the keel, where it does the boat the most good.

A cored deck can also be less expensive to build than an uncored deck of the same strength, since you have to use less resin and fiberglass to make it.

Using a core material like end-grain balsa in the underwater sections of a boat's hull is less than intelligent. Core materials for the underwater portions of a boat should be foam, and the keelstrip of the boat and any areas where the through-hulls will be passing through the hull, should be made up of solid laminate.

Also, while Marelon seacocks and through-hulls are pretty good, they aren't the only high-quality seacocks available.



> Others boats we were interested in were Cape Dory's, Island Packets, etc., all heavy hand lay-ups and nice craft. BTW, the Com-Pac is a very nice sailing craft with traditional interior styling, but not a racing boat.
> 
> Boat selection seems dependent upon ones utlimate usage. We are interested in cruising, weekending, daysailing and taking the grandkids along occassionally.


Heavy hand layup doesn't make for a well constructed boat necessarily. If the guy doing the layup doesn't know what he is doing, it can result in a void ridden, resin-heavy laminate that is far weaker than it should be.



> Whatever you decide upon, please spend the money for a COMPLETE Professional Marine Survey, and also a diesel auxilary survey if that's the type power plant installed. FYI, most surveyors do not survey the standing rigging and one would need to hire a rigger in order to properly check that aspect.


Having boat, engine and rigging surveys done is generally a good idea all-around..



> I find it's preferable to really take your time in selecting (be honest about your needs versus wants) the vessel to be considered (be it a boat or personal aircraft), then have it completely surveyed. It's cheaper to spend more for a very well maintained vessel (Bristol shape) than it is to need to fix major items. Otherwise I think it's penny wise and pound foolish!


Very true. Generally, it costs more to re-furbish a boat than to buy the same make/model in decent shape to start with.



> I don't understand why you want a wheel (ours has one but personal preferance is a tiller) as it's just more complexity/potential future probelms. I think wheels shouldn't be on boats under 35 - 40 ft., but that's just me.


Not only do they add more points of failure and complexity, they can add significant weight aft, and complicate the installation of things like wind vanes, self-steering, autopilots, etc. Granted, a tiller eats up more space underway, but at anchor, the tiller swings up and out of the way and frees up the cockpit when you need to use the space most.



> At any rate good luck in your selection. Remember, there's always another deal around another corner, don't rush !
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Gary


Really no need to rush given the current market conditions... more boats will probably be headed to the brokers in the next four months.


----------



## Delirious (Dec 16, 2001)

Up here where the humidity keeps up with the temperature having a cored hull and deck makes it harder to work up a good crop of mildew - eliminating a source of greens while on an extended cruise. ;-)


----------



## WouldaShoulda (Oct 7, 2008)

sailingdog said:


> Don't know where you got the idea that quality boats were only made up of solid glass... that's about as stupid an idea as I've ever heard.


The guys first post and this is the welcome wagon??

SHEESH!!


----------



## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

I agree, Dog you are using the words Stupid and Idiot way to much!!


----------



## GaryHLucas (Mar 24, 2008)

eMKay said:


> This has already been covered earlier, it is for convenience for my passengers, as well as ease of control for my wife.


Oh! I get it, it's your boat but you're such a good guy, you are going to let your 100 lb wife steer while you grind winches and put your 200 lbs on the rail! I have to admit, that is a good racing tactic.


----------



## eMKay (Aug 18, 2007)

GaryHLucas said:


> Oh! I get it, it's your boat but you're such a good guy, you are going to let your 100 lb wife steer while you grind winches and put your 200 lbs on the rail! I have to admit, that is a good racing tactic.


Umm, what?


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

UGH... Ewww... Most of the mold I've seen on boats has been BLACK... You should just grow sprouts like Reid does... 


Delirious said:


> Up here where the humidity keeps up with the temperature having a cored hull and deck makes it harder to work up a good crop of mildew - eliminating a source of greens while on an extended cruise. ;-)


----------



## dakuehn (Aug 21, 2006)

That was very good reading--thanks cp


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Thanks for that link to the PDF CP...


----------



## eMKay (Aug 18, 2007)

GMarcus said:


> Hi Mike:
> 
> Having spent the past 6 months or so looking for a boat, we finally purchased a 1992 Com-Pac 27/2. We've been out of sailing for the past 36 years (last boat was a Person Aerial 26 ft.) and wanted another quality built boat. By quality I mean, no core (foam, plywood, edge grain balsa) anywhere and no chopper gun layups. The Com-Pac core is bi-axial & tri-axial glass non-woven, then hand layed up woven glass overtop, etc. etc. Nothing to rot, should any water ever infiltrate. Also, all thru the hulls are Marelon marine sea cocks, not gate valves, bronze port lights, etc.
> 
> ...


Thanks Gary, that's a nice review and that boat while not ideally suited to my needs, is on the list. One thing though, the boat is not all solid laminate, it has a foam core on deck, this is a bonus in my opinion. Also, the bulkheads are tabbed, the ballast is internal (no leaks or corroding bolts), and the hull to deck joint are glassed.

My concerns are with light air performance, it has a short rig and the genoa is sheeted outside the chainplates, also, it has quite a bit of wetted surface on that long keel. It would be left in the dust by the swift Hunter and the Catalina 28 (The top 2 on my list). All out performance is not my top priority, but light air performance is very important here on the great lakes.


----------

