# What stops Americans cruising the world?



## Nostrodamus (Mar 21, 2013)

Each year a huge number of Europeans cross to the dark side by sailing the Atlantic to the Caribbean. 
We left our home country (UK) three years ago and have been cruising Europe spending our time in new countries and destinations all the time.
We see plenty of nationalities doing the same but very few Americans.
What stops them from coming to Europe?


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## Yorksailor (Oct 11, 2009)

For us it is the cost, the bureaucracy and the weather which the Europeans are escaping by sailing to the Caribbean off the wind in warm weather.

We are sailing the South Pacific rather than the North Sea... again off the wind in warm weather.


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## Nostrodamus (Mar 21, 2013)

The good thing about the med is the history, the friendly people and everything is only a short sail (or motor away). I understand that you have problems with the time you can actually stay in one place but the Americans (and Canadians which there seem to be more of) we have met absolutely love it here.


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## sailordave (Jun 26, 2001)

Well, how long can I stay in the EU? How long can my boat stay in the EU before I have to pay import tax? How long is the sailing season? 


Hmmmm.  I think the Caribbean sounds good.


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## paulk (Jun 2, 2000)

Sailordave sums it up pretty well. If the Europeans are leaving Europe in droves and going to the Caribbean, why shouldn't we?


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## goboatingnow (Oct 10, 2008)

paulk said:


> Sailordave sums it up pretty well. If the Europeans are leaving Europe in droves and going to the Caribbean, why shouldn't we?


Are we , well the 15 million sailors left have hardly noticed


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## goboatingnow (Oct 10, 2008)

Nostrodamus said:


> Each year a huge number of Europeans cross to the dark side by sailing the Atlantic to the Caribbean.
> 
> We left our home country (UK) three years ago and have been cruising Europe spending our time in new countries and destinations all the time.
> 
> ...


For huge read less then several hundred

Dave


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## billyruffn (Sep 21, 2004)

My personal experience is so far limited to the UK and Ireland but is consistent with what I've heard from others who have cruised more widely in Europe....the answers are: high fuel costs, variable weather, winds or lack thereof, VAT on everything (increases the cost of living), and VAT regulations as they apply to boats. 

One other thing may be that it's much easier coming west in the trades than it is going east at 45-50N. When US cruisers head east we pay the price before the fun begins. When Europeans come this was this "cost" is deferred and the fun begins almost immediately (once they're a few hundred miles south of the Canaries).


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

There is also a huge difference in hopping down the coast, even through the thorny patch, as opposed to 30 days offshore to cross the atlantic. For that matter, New England direct to the Caribbean is 10ish days and one could layover in Bermuda to split the trip in half.

If one's plan is to bareboat, it's much less expensive to fly to the Caribbean and being in a closer time zone, it's much easier too.


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## Nostrodamus (Mar 21, 2013)

I understand a lot of what you say but I also think that a great deal is also in the mind as well. About 230 boats cross on the arc each year, about 200 hundred on the non arc and a few on their own. 
Our best friends out here ar Canadians and they love it and have always found a way around the problems.
I think it is far worse and more difficult for us europeans to get the documentation to cruise in the states and in the time we are allowed we cannot get anywhere. 
The authorities (of which there are too many departments) all believe we are up to no good.
It is even rare in the summer to see any Americans chartering out here.


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## capt vimes (Dec 2, 2013)

sailordave said:


> Well, how long can I stay in the EU? How long can my boat stay in the EU before I have to pay import tax? How long is the sailing season?
> 
> Hmmmm. I think the Caribbean sounds good.


US, canada, mexico and most of central and south american residents are entitled to stay for 90 days without visa in the EU...
Boats are exempt from taxes for non-EU residents for 18 months...




Some Frequently Asked Questions about the rules for private boats - European commission

In the end what you do if one of these days expire, you move out of the EU (which is just a short trip in the med) and reenter some days later to stay for another period...


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

It has very little to do with cost, VAT or anything other than the Schengen Area. The rules of this agreement make it almost impossible for Americans to stay legally anywhere within the Schengen Area for more than 90 days with 90 days between visits. I've done the Med numerous times, and in my opinion, there's not a lot of cruising pleasure, if one must rush though it in 90 days.
VAT and all other taxes can be deferred and avoided, but there seems to be no legal way to circumvent the Schengen Area, that makes economic or safety sense.
Since the legal recourse of most governments when you violate their immigration laws is to impound your boat and use the proceeds from the sale to deport you, I prefer not to mess around with those laws.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

Nostrodamus said:


> What stops them from coming to Europe?


Work. Family obligations. Other interests. Lack of time (six weeks vacation is not the norm here). Comfortable surroundings. Having nothing to prove. Numerous diversions readily at hand.

Life is pretty good here in the States for those with the time and money to cruise for extended periods (not me, BTW)...

I still wonder on a regular basis why anyone would put up with the long-term discomfort, hardship, and inconvenience of living on a sailboat and crossing oceans.

While I admire the ability of some to cross oceans, I still wonder Why? Why? Why?, especially after reading numerous accounts of people doing it. I have the same question when I read about people scaling Mt. Everest or K2 or even backpacking for months on end or hiking the AP in the U.S. What hole are they trying to fill? What are they compensating for? What is there to prove, and to whom? Whose idea of fun is that?

Racing, daysailing and short cruises on a sailboat are fun. After a week aboard, I am ready for the comfort of home.

Life is good with a balance. Travel is fun. Why pick the slowest, most uncomfortable means to do it?


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## capt vimes (Dec 2, 2013)

I have never heard of having to stay away for 90 days once the initial period has expired...
Contrary a good friend of mine from australia had to leave and reenter the EU every now and then before he got his staying permit and nobody made any fuss about it... He was even advised by the officials to do so...


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## Nostrodamus (Mar 21, 2013)

jameswilson29 said:


> Work. Family obligations. Other interests. Lack of time (six weeks vacation is not the norm here). Comfortable surroundings. Having nothing to prove.
> 
> Life is pretty good here in the States for those with the time and money to cruise for extended periods (not me, BTW)...
> 
> ...


I think it sums it up pretty well... it is more of a mind thing rather than wanting to sail, explore and challenge yourself. We make speak a similar language but our minds are in a different universe.
As I said why not charter for a holiday.
I once told an American that the world was not flat.....
He replied. It is now cause we bombed it all


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Nostrodamus said:


> We see plenty of nationalities doing the same but very few Americans.
> What stops them from coming to Europe?


Two simple answers, among many:

1) Because we can't bring our guns with us? )

2) Because "we're crazy-driven-hard-working-believers...", who would rather own a $75K Cadillac than spend the entire month of August sailing, that's why...


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

The same reason there are more Europeans circumnavigating than Americans.
In fact I see more Canadians then Americans sailing in the med.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

The Caribbean.


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## Caribbeachbum (Feb 23, 2014)

jameswilson29 said:


> Work. Family obligations. Other interests. Lack of time (six weeks vacation is not the norm here). Comfortable surroundings. Having nothing to prove. Numerous diversions readily at hand.
> ...
> Life is good with a balance. Travel is fun. Why pick the slowest, most uncomfortable means to do it?


Because the journey is the worthier part.


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## Seaduction (Oct 24, 2011)

Language differences?


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

I thought the title said cruising the world?

in regards to europe *expense is the number 1 reason*...after that its vat and length of stays and regulations...altough some lately have done it cheaply in the adratic and parts of greece and turkey

if you read latitude 38 a west coast cruisers mag you can see that some have done it very cheaply 3 months at a time or just for summer cruises...like many parts in europe one island can be excessively expenive and around the corner quite cheap...there is a lot to chose from...

if the world, the reason is very conflicting often political....there are many regions that have become no go places...

some parts of of asia...philipine islands, timor, vietnam(although its the new frontier) cambodia etc...

and then you have basically a big chunk of the red sea because of the issues in sudan, most recently now with pirates from the horn, somalia eritrea whats going on in egypt etc...

most american cruisers out of safety do not like to go to either yemen or even oman as there are issues leaving those places, they seem to be a magnet for pirates

in any case though...there is a big or almost majority of american cruisers in the south pacific, or pacific in general...

when we were cruising the percentages of cruisers from big to small were mostly like this

american
canadian or french canadian
french(mostly solo)
british
aussies or kiwis
german
belgian
dutch(mostly solo)
italian
spanish
russian or eastern european
turks
greeks

there were a few portuguese and brazilian cruisers, and some others but the quantities were like this relatively speaking...I know Im missiing some...sorry.

the spanish have really gone down the list cause if the economy when were were out we had a nice group of about 8 boats that we met at different times and parts of the world.

this was 2000-2010 years.

dont know how much it changed now...Id be interested to know

Like someone else posted too I think the big reason most cruisers dont start off crossing the atlantic(upwind) first is simply its harder to do so this way the first time...

its a great starting point to hop down the coast do the caribean and keep on going...

off the west coast of north america the same applies...people love to hop down get to know their boat be in "familiar" territory and get the guts to do the pacific puddle jump or go out on their own

there are a few that simply stick to the coast from west coast to east coast via the canal...we did...it was great

a lot of varuations and scenarios to this question too I guess

some people like doung routes...like the pacific circle

or the med

or high latitude sailing etc...


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## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

Nostrodamus said:


> Each year a huge number of Europeans cross to the dark side by sailing the Atlantic to the Caribbean.
> We left our home country (UK) three years ago and have been cruising Europe spending our time in new countries and destinations all the time.
> We see plenty of nationalities doing the same but very few Americans.
> What stops them from coming to Europe?


We considered it years ago when we did a little 'cruising' on our east coast for a year. We love the EU and it was simple logistics that ended the idea.

The time commitment was the biggest hurdle. To really enjoy ourselves would have required a few years and for us to change our lifestyle, which we were enjoying(and still do).

Plus the year living on a boat and moving it was great fun, but not a way of life I prefer. My sailboat and my house-land based life, are different things that I enjoy immensely, but separately. I'd feel lost without both.

These days, we do a lot of sailing and combine it with interesting travel close to home(in comparison to long distance cruisers). We sail a lot which keeps me very happy.

But we never lost the wanderlust to travel. The EU is a favorite for our family and has had a huge effect on us. Our daughter earned her degree in Scotland, and our son is now in Rome at school. We've been lucky enough to travel to the EU several times since we first did some cruising. We can't wait to get back and if fact would like to spend longer blocks of time in the EU.

Our favorite way to travel is very lightly, no schedule, little baggage. That's easy to do in the EU where everything is so close with the train systems and endless places to explore and stay along the way.

I'm also looking forward to the coming sailing season. We have plans to spend more time sailing New England this year. We'll never cover it all.

Your website is fantastic and very unique(as is your family).

If we lived where you do, we'd likely be sailing to many of the same destinations.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

capta said:


> It has very little to do with cost, VAT or anything other than the Schengen Area. The rules of this agreement make it almost impossible for Americans to stay legally anywhere within the Schengen Area for more than 90 days with 90 days between visits. I've done the Med numerous times, and in my opinion, there's not a lot of cruising pleasure, if one must rush though it in 90 days.
> VAT and all other taxes can be deferred and avoided, but there seems to be no legal way to circumvent the Schengen Area, that makes economic or safety sense.
> Since the legal recourse of most governments when you violate their immigration laws is to impound your boat and use the proceeds from the sale to deport you, I prefer not to mess around with those laws.


I have some friends right now in turkey, marmaris...the crusiing grounds here are heavenly

they summer there then go back to madrid for winter...

while cost is not the only issue there seems to be alot of expensive bureacracy in certain areas...some are prohibitively expensive too

the issue too is the med isnt that small if you think about it and the winds can be extreme or so light its boring so its not like you are there for the best offshore winds and trades its more hopping around than voyaging if you will...

I beleive a good inboard is paramount here

also and this is just nitpicking a lot of cruisers do have issues with med style tying up

I know a few who simply said that the overcrowdedness and complexity of getting to shore in some places made them look elsewhere...

just nitpicking here but there are otther issues not just expense

lastly and this is just my view

there is a bias towards some euro contries and even though the history is great, the food, the wine whatever many cruisers(not only american) chose not to go some places simply by not wanting to...political reasons and others

anywhoo


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## svzephyr44 (Jun 26, 2000)

I think for the North America/Caribbean/Med issue there are a few simple bullets:
1. Schengen
2. Schengen
3. Schengen: This is a huge disincentive. Try getting a Schengen visa in the US. First you have to fly to some major city for the personal interview. Then you have to explain that you don't know when you are going to get there (what? You don't have a flight number? and what day you are going to arrive? - "but we need to know." You don't know which Schengen country you are going to ("no sir, if the winds or weather are adverse I might have to going into a different Schengen country first.") "We can't have that!" "Come back when you know what you are doing." 90 days for all of Europe? The Med is 2,300 miles long. In my boat that is a 23 day 24/7 transit. You must be kidding. Oh, and of course the non-Schengen countries have raised their rates. Why, because they know you are screwed.
and then there is...
1. Short sailing season. In North America/Central America/Caribbean you can sail year round without ever doing more than a 2 day transit. Why spend two months crossing oceans to go to the Med? There are beautiful sailing grounds here. Do I really want to lose half of each year (I'm 67) sitting in some marina due to the weather. I think not. If a European leaves the Med they get 6 extra months of sailing. If an American goes to the Med they lose 6 months of sailing
2. Cost/Benefit - yes Europe is expensive, the US et al can be too. But as noted in "1" above the denominator for Europe is 6 months, here is is 12. 6 months a year in the Med are just a sunk cost. Yes, you can say, use the time to tour. But why waste two months of touring when you can fly across in a day for about what the transit will cost?
3. All of the rest - fear of crossing, time off, concerns about officials, concerns about safety (I would not want to sail near Egypt or Syria or the Ukraine right now. There are bad places on this side of the pond but no where as extensive as in the Med.

Oh, did I mention *Schengen?*


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## svzephyr44 (Jun 26, 2000)

christian.hess said:


> I have some friends right now in turkey, marmaris...the crusiing grounds here are heavenly
> 
> they summer there then go back to madrid for winter...


In other words they only sail 6 months a year.


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

europe is cold. 
mediterranean is warm,kinda, 
caribbean is warm
west mexico is warm
pacific and atlantic are big...and parts are COLD....
indian ocean has never been stable since i was a kid, so was never on my thoughts....
i will stay in warmville....
besides, yáll have a time limit for visitors...my boat would break down yet again and i would overstay my welcome...yada yada yada......


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

svzephyr44 said:


> In other words they only sail 6 months a year.


yes, after doing a circumnavigation...this is their retirement after a retirement if you will

I did 2/3 of the globe with them...

they are in heaven in turkey...


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## svzephyr44 (Jun 26, 2000)

christian.hess said:


> yes, after doing a circumnavigation...this is their retirement after a retirement if you will
> 
> I did 2/3 of the globe with them...
> 
> they are in heaven in turkey...


Sounds like they and you had fun. I am glad they are well. My point, not well made, is that there is a big difference between being a 365 day resident and a 6 month resident. For example I have been stuck in my currently location due to some minor health issues. It has been cold, there has been snow and ice, the water temperature dropped to 32.2 degrees. Not a great situation when the only heat is electric heaters. Not only do they not keep the boat warm, moving means no heat for the 5 to 10 days (24/7) it would take me to get to warmer climes. That was next weeks project, unfortunately the forecast is for rain and ice.


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## goboatingnow (Oct 10, 2008)

One should take into account ( given the seeming hordes of Europeans sailing west  

Firstly sailing boat ownership in Europe is significantly greater the in the US. There's a reason virtually all the major builders are there. 

By comparison the US is primarily a power boat country. 

Hence even allowing the fact that its difficult to go east. Your not going to see many Americans in Europe. There arnt that many world girdling US cruisers to begin with

Those that mention Schengen or VAT ( which is simply not an issue ) have obviously never been to the Med. The reality is there is little bureaucracy n reality. Stories get hyped around the Internet. The reality is cruisers are out there doing it. 

The primary reason there are few US in the med is simply its requires an initial long and comparatively arduous sail. Its a lot easier to cut your teeth making a rub to Bermuda or the Usvi. Etc 

Dave


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## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

JonEisberg said:


> 2) Because "we're crazy-driven-hard-working-believers...", who would rather own a $75K Cadillac than spend the entire month of August sailing, that's why...


They ran that commercial during the Olympics, a world class event. I was embarrassed.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Because America is nice enough to stay and cruise and Europe is screwed up enough to want to escape.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

I was wondering how long it would take before anyone mentioned SCHENGEN.

SCHENGEN, weather, prices...Really, who wants to screw around with a 90-day limit and trying to dodge and plan around that? When they've got to spend two to four weeks each way just to get there? That starts to become way too much transit time for way too little destination time, when the Carib is so much closer to the US, with so much clear water. 

Someone must have been terrified at the thought of Hawaiian shirts, Brownie cameras, Coca-Cola and fast food when they thought that one up. And look what happened, their own native people set up the fast-food franchises anyway. Quelle dommage!

Makes almost as much economic sense as the US "war on drugs".


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Yes, I think the Europeans underestimate the difficulties of Shengen, both real and perceived.

Me, for instance, have sailed in turkey a number of times since 1993 and have little or no interest in going back there as I wish to explore the western med. But doing the western med means difficulties and enforced moves to turkey, or to other north african countries that have all have difficulties, revolutions etc in the last few years. Even Morocco.
Plus theres a simple fact that many Americans just do not want to visit countries where they are hated. Go find a country that loves burning American flags and stay there for 3 months? Not on your nellie! 

So folks have to get full visas so they dont rely on the shengen visa... Thats much more paperwork and planning. 

You must remember that the caribbean is a blow in, blow out place where every country gives visa on arrival for US citizens, and the next island country is only 20 to 80 miles away. From the BVIs to Trinidad is 450 nms where Nice in the South of France to Marmaris in Turkey is 1,200 miles through some pretty tough waters.

Remember Turkey boarders Syria. OK its a long way away from the cruising areas, but it puts some people off.

Croatia isnt a viable alternative either, especially for wintering, and its joing Shengen next year anyway.

Finally, the Med for a retired couple sailing from the USA is a multiple year cruise so if Europe wants the tourism benefit it needs to change the law for cruisers to become as attractive as the Caribbean.


Mark


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## Osprey 26 (Jun 28, 2013)

Ha,ha kind of dumb answer, but have to give it try.
Europeans did discover America not the other way around.
Now that I am here do I really want to go back such a long distance.
Tired overworked?


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## Nostrodamus (Mar 21, 2013)

I don't think the Europeans do underestimate the difficulties of Shengen. 
We know it is difficult but in Europe there are places you can go. 
When we Europeans want to sail in the states and our visas are due to expire where can we go?
We have been living aboard and cruising for the last three years so we meet all other nationalities and there are plenty of others to which Shengen applies, not just Americans.
There are two types of border. One created by politicians so they have there own little bit of power and the border in the mind. As cruisers we wish there were no borders at all.
This post is not a dig at Americans. It is just there are a lot of sailors in America but we have seen very few.
Of the ones we have met everyone of them represents your country well and fly's the flag proudly. We sailed for a month this year with an American family (they had their three young girls with them). We are proud to call them friends.
I just thought we would see more Americans.
I do think the biggest problem is not Shengen but the barriers in the mind.


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## Osprey 26 (Jun 28, 2013)

Good thread, and good questions,answers. Looks like people from warm climate want to explore cold, and from cold want to see hot. Some of us also wan't to see places we learned about from books, movies, friends. Time, and money is a limit how much we can see from wonderfull World.
Charter, and such can help if good friends share it. More we learn about them more friends we have.


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## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

Nostrodamus said:


> I don't think the Europeans do underestimate the difficulties of Shengen.
> 
> When we Europeans want to sail in the states and our visas are due to expire where can we go?
> 
> ...


We have friends sailing out of the UK now in the Caribbean. They came up the east coast and spent time in Maine(it was their favorite, not bragging,...).

They enjoyed it so much, they plan to return to Maine this summer. And they will cruise into Canada to renew their visas. That's just a few days coastal sailing or an overnight from our harbor.

Iain and Fiona are now 2 years into a cruise which will last at least 3 if they end it this coming fall and return to the UK. That's a good amount of time to see the rim of the Atlantic and explore the Caribbean and include the East Coast of the US to Canada. But even 3 years doesn't allow you to linger often and you can only scratch the surface. In fact, they had to skip huge portions of Europe(ones we would have prioritized if doing the reverse cruise)just to tackle this itinerary.

Most US cruisers are on a year-winter cruise which doesn't allow time for crossing the Atlantic-twice, exploring many countries, and then returning to the US.

I know several US families that have cruised the EU. But it often entailed multi year itinerary that meant leaving the boat there as they returned to the US for spells of time.

Truth is, we see very few long distance cruisers in Maine. Even EU boats in the caribbean rarely get up this far. In fact, few US cruisers even make it up this far.

You need time, lots of time to cruise far in a sailboat.


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

I've been to Europe several times, and I just don't think it would be that fun of a place to cruise for me (mainly weather wise) compared to the Caribbean.

When I have such a nice place that I can get to so easily, why would I sail across the Atlantic?

I'm not trying to rack up sailing miles for bragging rights, I'm just trying to have a good time.


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## Nostrodamus (Mar 21, 2013)

We do want to go to the Caribbean at some point. From the people we have spoken to some really enjoyed it but they say after a while every island is the same. 
We like finding out history, culture and out of the way places and sailing is a way to do that. 
It is good to sail but the actual sailing isn't our actual priority. Seeing something different is.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Cracks me up, when Americans answer why they choose the Caribbean over Europe, to which Europeans respond, no that's not it.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

I think Americans are more outraged by useless regulation and bureaucratic BS and are just not willing to put up with this kind of nonsense, especially as it concerns banana republics. Europeans are more used to having their individual rights squashed and are more accepting of useless rules and regulations. Even getting fleeced for $300.00 by places like the Bahamas with length of stay determined at the whim of some low-level Customs bureaucrat is a significant turn-off. There are plenty of great places to sail and places to visit right here in the USA.


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## capt vimes (Dec 2, 2013)

You are talking about bureaucratic BS in europe?
Patriot act, the requirement to report to homeland security if you leave a marina to go to the next one 10 miles down the coast in the same state?
The US is nothing better, but since they treat any tourist as 'intending immigrant' at lot unfriendlier... Just saying.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

capt vimes said:


> Patriot act, the requirement to report to homeland security if you leave a marina to go to the next one 10 miles down the coast in the same state?.


Sorry. Thats just not right.

Its once per state, and in Florida when you pass a Port of Entry. The requirement is a quick phone call to a polite operator.

Given the ease of moving things that go BANG on a sailboat and the USA being a fun place for terrorists I think the measures are justified.

Remember, its once per state.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

Nostrodamus said:


> We do want to go to the Caribbean at some point. From the people we have spoken to some really enjoyed it but they say after a while every island is the same.
> We like finding out history, culture and out of the way places and sailing is a way to do that.
> It is good to sail but the actual sailing isn't our actual priority. Seeing something different is.


OK, as a non-European, non-American who has cruised quite a bit let me contribute my 2 cents worth.


One of the neat things in the Caribbean is that the islands are quite different from each other - different levels of development, cultural background, even physical geography. 
We have visited N and S America, Oz, Asia, Southern Africa, but not Europe - reasons are cost (what European cruisers tell us) and bureacracy - Schengen is not to be sneezed at. We are thinking about heading to Europe but would only go to the Baltic, Britain, and Ireland. No interest in cruising in the Med, just heard too many bad things about cost, crowding, and crappy sailing (too much wind or too little).
Americans should not under-estimate the difficulty of cruising In the US for foreigners. It is easier for Canadians than others but still a pain. Officials do not even know their own rules and the rules are applied differently in different places, eg different rules about calling in daily if you are on the northern or southern side of Long Island Sound.
Cruising is definitely more interesting (and cheaper) in many places outside the US than in the US - whether we are talking about Caribbean, South Pacific, various parts of the Indian Ocean basin. 

Having said all this and going back to the original question about Americans cruising the world (as opposed to cruising Europe) i don't really know the reason but considering the huge number of suitable boats in the US it is fascinating to see how few American boats there are, especially once when you get a good distance from the Bahamas and Caribbean. On our trip from Cape Town to the Caribbean we saw two American boats and they were both race-oriented boats heading south. The 'ordinary' cruisers, heading around the world, were from Europe (8 including 3 Dutch), Australia (1), NZ (1), and Canada (3) only.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

Mark, you posted after I did but let me correct your response. In some customs districts you only need to call in when you arrive. This applies in the district that goes from the southern side of Long Island Sound (in NY state) to Cape May, NJ. The northern side of the Sound is part of the New England district and you need to all in every day. If you go down the Erie Canal from Lake Ontario to the Hudson you pass through the districts with offices in Rochester, Syracuse, and Albany and you are supposed to all into each. The Albany office said we should call into the NYC office. The only phone number we could find was for one of the airports and they wondered 'what the hell we were calling them' for.

Obviously a country can have any set of rules they want, but it is not too much to expect that the rules are applied fairly and equally. On the flip side, once you know the rules a traveller (in our case cruiser) has the right not to visit a country whether it is Europe (Schengen), the US (too many rules applied unevenly), or somewhere like the Bahamas if you think they charge too much.

I mentioned in another thread our lovely experience with the officials in St Helena. They (harbourmaster, immigration, and customs) ignored the fact that we stayed an extra day (would have cost us 45 pounds). The customs lady gave us a couple of slices of cake that she had made and brought to work. If only it was always so pleasant.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

killarney_sailor said:


> Mark, you posted after I did but let me correct your response. In some customs districts you only need to call in when you arrive.


So, you expect me to go through alllllllll my paperwork? 

[5 hours later]

OK, so here is my cruising permit and obviously someone has changed the clause.... I thought it said once per state.














Hmmmmm

Did they use disappearing ink?

OK! This is hard to say, but, I am wring. Ooops, Wong. Damn, wung....  WRONG.

Bugger.

Btw I do have a phone number here that goes to some head office where you can report by phone if its difficult to get a local... 1800 973 2867 dial 0

Mark


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

svzephyr44 said:


> Sounds like they and you had fun. I am glad they are well. My point, not well made, is that there is a big difference between being a 365 day resident and a 6 month resident. For example I have been stuck in my currently location due to some minor health issues. It has been cold, there has been snow and ice, the water temperature dropped to 32.2 degrees. Not a great situation when the only heat is electric heaters. Not only do they not keep the boat warm, moving means no heat for the 5 to 10 days (24/7) it would take me to get to warmer climes. That was next weeks project, unfortunately the forecast is for rain and ice.


agree...

while not completely accurate someone mentioned that mexico, central america and areas close by are ALL YEAR sailing

while yes you can be on a boat sipping a margarita in august you can get the absolute **** beat out of you if you are sailing even day sailing from port to port here during the rainy seasons

costa ricans have papagayos we have micro bursts or simply called NORTES or winds from the north that make tehuantepecers seem mild...

the rainy season down here is anything but friendly or all year round sailing

you can do it but you will not like it...

just sayin


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

Minnewaska said:


> Because America is nice enough to stay and cruise and Europe is screwed up enough to want to escape.


i dont know if your joking or poking fun but the argument can be said for any country, continent etc...

and there are MANY MANY non friendly places in the us towards cruisers, foreign or domestic

just sayin


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

christian.hess said:


> i dont know if your joking or poking fun but the argument can be said for any country, continent etc...
> 
> and there are MANY MANY non friendly places in the us towards cruisers, foreign or domestic
> 
> just sayin


I'm not sure, I can't recall what I was thinking when I posted it. 

I will add, however, if I was forced to contain my cruising to a single thousand mile section of coastline anywhere in the world, the stretch from Maine to FL would not cause me any sense of despair. Nor, would I be able to explore all of it in a lifetime.

I like it here.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

capt vimes said:


> You are talking about bureaucratic BS in europe?
> Patriot act, the requirement to report to homeland security if you leave a marina to go to the next one 10 miles down the coast in the same state?
> The US is nothing better, *but since they treat any tourist as 'intending immigrant' at lot unfriendlier... Just saying*.


I dont want to make this into a big deal but this is true...not every where, every airport or port, etc...

honestly its very RARE to see tourists not being treated as so...for whatever reasons, valid or not it happens...


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

Minnewaska said:


> I'm not sure, I can't recall what I was thinking when I posted it.
> 
> I will add, however, if I was forced to contain my cruising to a single thousand mile section of coastline anywhere in the world, the stretch from Maine to FL would not cause me any sense of despair. Nor, would I be able to explore all of it in a lifetime.
> 
> I like it here.


I would love that area too...in fact its on the list...

have some friends in georgia, the carolinas and in dc...woukd be fun to hop up and visit


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

Maybe it is just that the USA is a pretty place with a lot of different stuff to do and see. And if you are a citizen and have US health coverage from a pension plan or medicare there isn't a reason to leave just to "cruise". There isn't really a reason to leave if you aren't interested in seeing different countries (heck for a northerner going south to a different state seems like a different country but you don't have to try to learn a way different language).


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

capt vimes said:


> You are talking about bureaucratic BS in europe?
> Patriot act, the requirement to report to homeland security if you leave a marina to go to the next one 10 miles down the coast in the same state?
> The US is nothing better, but since they treat any tourist as 'intending immigrant' at lot unfriendlier... Just saying.


I'm old enough to remember what freedom looked like before the invention of excessive regulation right here in the US. You are right that we have plenty of our own regulation now. For foreign vessels entering the US, it must be a nightmare. Much of this regulatory morass has happened since 911, since Bush and Obama, since we forgot about the Constitution in favor of executive decree. That said, your run-of-the-mill banana republic, complete with crooked officials, has little to worry about as far as being the target of terrorists. I think the prospect of jumping through hoops and being fleeced to enter small countries convinces a lot of US sailors to stay stateside.


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## downeast450 (Jan 16, 2008)

We love to sail and we love to travel. Blessed with friends and family around the world spending time "elsewhere" is one of our burdens. Every view of a foreign coast is automatically analyzed as sailing grounds. Some certainly invite a cruise. Others look "stark" with limited options among the beauty. If I had to choose a stretch of coast to be "limited" to in my cruising, the Atlantic coast of North America gets my vote. Chartering fills the gap for foreign cruising. We have difficulty leaving New England in a cruising season. It is interesting. The weather is favorable and predictable enough. It is safe! It is friendly. No residency hassles. Health care isn't an issue. It is right out the front door and tropical waters are just a few hops away.

Last October I asked a shop keeper in Ana Capri where he goes on his vacations. He replied, "Why would I want to go anywhere?" I do love to travel but cruising in our boat is satisfactory right here along the U.S. East coast. I do want to spend some time in the PNW. Working on a plan for that.

Down


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Part of it is the simple fact that Americans are, generally speaking, not world travelers - well under 1/2 hold passports and now they can't even come HERE without them, let alone overseas.

There is a widely held, if unspoken attitude in the States of "Why would I want to go anywhere else - it can't be as good as it is here".


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

to add to that I remember while in college meeting people who had never left that town, had no desire to, didnt have a passport didnt want to, never had seen a beach or even a waterfall or a river or a big mountain nothing

yet this person was completely happy as is where is if you will

some people are very happy in situations pr places where basically most dont...

not being philosophical here but adding to what sloop said

it is very very true that many us citizens dont in fact have a passport...they feel or cant or dont want to travel

my brothers wife says she doesnt want to travel abroad cause she doesnt feel the need...she also doesnt like to travel by plane.

go figure


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Minnewaska said:


> ....
> 
> I will add, however, if I was forced to contain my cruising to a single thousand mile section of coastline anywhere in the world, the stretch from Maine to FL would not cause me any sense of despair. Nor, would I be able to explore all of it in a lifetime.
> 
> I like it here.


I would/could say the same about B.C to and including Alaska.. So we're both fortunate in that regard.

Not to say we don't enjoy Caribbean island hopping or port hopping on Mexico's Pacific coast.. but we definitely get our fill of great cruising close to home.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

TomMaine said:


> > Originally Posted by JonEisberg
> >
> > 2) Because "we're crazy-driven-hard-working-believers...", who would rather own a $75K Cadillac than spend the entire month of August sailing, that's why...
> 
> ...


Why? That's _"American Exceptionalism"_, at its finest... 

Yeah, from the country that routinely proclaims its professional teams _"WORLD CHAMPIONS"_, in sports not played outside of our own borders... Or where "The Best Drivers in the World" only turn left...

Gotta love the irony of bragging that "we're the only ones going back to the moon", at a time when we're paying the Russian Space Agency $70 million a pop to shuttle NASA astronauts to and from the International Space Station...


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

mark-
"So folks have to get full visas so they dont rely on the shengen visa... Thats much more paperwork and planning. "
For us Colonials, there was no "full" visa alternative to Schengen last time I looked. Yes, there are some "residency" or "work" etc. options in various nations, but they are not just 'full' visas, and they come with beaucoup complications.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

For sure it isn't just Americans. When I lived in England, lo these many years ago, it was VERY uncommon for anyone to have ever ventured more than 100 miles from where they were born. A trip to London (140 miles) would be a once in a lifetime adventure. A young married woman who lived next to us cried for a week after marrying and moving there because she was now so far away from her mother (1-1/2 miles or so). It's different now but not THAT much.

But I also see the other side now that I have travelled a lot - I really don't care if I never see the inside of an airliner again (although I probably will).


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

As someone said to travel people have to have money. To do that in a sailboat much more than in other ways and that's a limiting factor that does not apply to rich countries like the US where a considerable percentage have money to do that.

I agree with SloopJonB that has also to do with national characteristics of the population. there are some like the Dutch, the French and even the Portuguese that if they have the means will do it more than others. Memories of big Empires that created a restless kind of genes at least for part of the population? Well, that seems not to happen so much with the Brittish (that had a bif empire), even if in what regards boating and cruising they are an exception. I mean the common British is not much to travel around but the British sailors are.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SloopJonB said:


> ....There is a widely held, if unspoken attitude in the States of "Why would I want to go anywhere else - it can't be as good as it is here".


Exactly, how would you know?

I guess, since the US is the second most visited country in the world, most of the planet agrees with your assumption of this unspoken attitude. (Canada didn't make the top 10)

For one, I've traveled to and enjoyed seeing every corner of the globe. No place like home.


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## svzephyr44 (Jun 26, 2000)

When I first started cruising the biggest shock was just how slow sailboats travel. Having been a frequent airplane traveler for business Miami and New York were about the same distance away from Milwaukee, and LA and Seattle were only a little bit further. I did day trips to Miami and New York and single overnights to LA and Seattle. When I started sailing and realized that it would take weeks to sail from Key West to Maine I was astounded.

I have no idea what Europeans think - I can't even project the universe from a sample of one since I am not a European. But my guess is that most Europeans and most Americans have no idea just how big the United States is in land area and coastline. Culture aside (we can discuss that for hours) this place has it all: coast, forest, lakes, farm land, desert, mountains, tundra, volcanoes, extensive sports offerings, some of the finest collections of art and artifacts in the world, not to mention Lost Wages and Disney World (LOL). All of these things are available to a US citizen or resident with no customs, no border controls, no multiple languages, few (obviously) corrupt officials, no bribes, a single language, and a general feeling of personal safety unless you are stupid enough to go into the wrong neighborhood at the wrong time. I would speculate that most of the 314 million population are not motivated to go abroad. Yet we have the largest concentration of cruise ships in the world and even midsize towns have international airports.

I mentioned Schengen before, I will not flog that horse. But I do think when it comes to world (not European) cruising that being a US citizen is both a blessing and a curse because you never know how you are going to be received. I have learned how much one can not predict outcomes of personal interactions due to two personal attributes: I am retired military and I went to a very elite and prestigious university. When some people find out either of these two personal facts they are impressed. When others find out they are totally turned off. I feel the same way when I place my passport on the counter in a foreign country. Am I the ugly American? Or the ugly American with money so its OK? Or am I just another guy on a sailboat that wants to spend time enjoying the benefits of a foreign (to me) people and culture? I never know what the border patrol people are thinking. I have had warm receptions, neutral receptions, and my boat searched from bow to stern.

Sailors are actually a very small subset of the total US population - even counting trailer sailors and wind surfers. To go world cruising one needs not only to enjoy sailing but to have an interest in foreign places (not to mention time and money, but we have been down that path.) Is it really surprising that so few decide to take the plunge?


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## Nostrodamus (Mar 21, 2013)

We made friends with an American motor boater this year on a Nantucket I think. It was about 50 ft so not huge and has one main engine and a small get me home one.
He crossed from the states in it to Europe and he and is wife are an amazing couple.

Got to be barking mad to cross the Atlantic on a boat where you rely on the engine only but he has more guts than I will ever have.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

svzephyr44 said:


> ......But my guess is that most Europeans and most Americans have no idea just how big the United States is in land area and coastline. .......


Good guess. I drove my motorcycle through 5 countries in Europe and didn't cover any more land mass than New England. The scale is extraordinarily greater.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

SloopJonB said:


> Part of it is the simple fact that Americans are, generally speaking, not world travelers - well under 1/2 hold passports....





> from the US Department of State. Valid U.S. Passports in January of 2014, is about 46% , 2012 is 113,431,943 (36%). In 2002 it was 55,169,571 (19%). In 1992 it was 17,950,578 (7%).


How Many Americans Have A Passport? | TheExpeditioner Travel Site

A big increase in only a few years.



> Today, passport offices in Australia and overseas issue around 1.8 million passports a year and more than 10 million Australians - just under 50 per cent of the population - currently hold Australian passports.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> A big increase in only a few years.


That's because we didn't used to need a passport to go to Canada, Mexico or the Bahamas.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

svzephyr44 said:


> ...
> I have no idea what Europeans think - I can't even project the universe from a sample of one since I am not a European. But my guess is that most Europeans and most Americans have no idea just how big the United States is in land area and coastline. Culture aside (we can discuss that for hours) this place has it all: coast, forest, lakes, farm land, desert, mountains, tundra, volcanoes, extensive sports offerings, some of the finest collections of art and artifacts in the world, not to mention Lost Wages and Disney World (LOL). ..
> 
> Sailors are actually a very small subset of the total US population - even counting trailer sailors and wind surfers. To go world cruising one needs not only to enjoy sailing but to have an interest in foreign places (not to mention time and money, but we have been down that path.) Is it really surprising that so few decide to take the plunge?


Yes US is big as is Europe if you take it as a all but that is not the point the point is that the biggest concentration of American sailboats are on the Caribbean and the biggest concentration of European sailboats are on the med.

I believe that the original question had to do with the fact that there is a much bigger percentage of European boats on the Caribbean compared with the few American boats in the med. To say that the Caribbean is better than the Med makes no sense. It is equally good but different, more wild even if with some places full of sailboats but the med is much more interesting in what regards history, culture, food and traditional architecture.

The Europeans appreciate the Caribbean and many sail their boats til there. On the med almost all Americans I see are on charter boats.

I think that it was about this that the OP was talking about.

Regards

Paulo


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Don0190 said:


> That's because we didn't used to need a passport to go to Canada, Mexico or the Bahamas.


Well, i could understand wanting to go to The Bahamas.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Minnewaska said:


> Exactly, how would you know?


Because I live 30 miles from the border and have done most of my life, have family all over the States and 1/2 my heritage is from Mass. & Virginia.

Add to that, the tidal wave of info that comes from the States - is there another population that is more surveyed and analyzed? - and it's not too difficult.

It's pretty nice here too and I keep coming back but that hasn't prevented me from seeing other places.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> How Many Americans Have A Passport? | TheExpeditioner Travel Site
> 
> A big increase in only a few years.


I suspect a lot of it is due to the change to the U.S./Canadian border. Everyone I know has one now but it wasn't like that before the border change.

Just the truckers alone would probably make a measurable increase.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

I'm not sure if folks are getting passports because they need one to GO to Canada &cetera, or more likely because it is so much simpler to COME BACK IN if you have one.

Remember, our courts have insisted you have no Constitutional Rights until _after _you've cleared customs & immigration, and that can extend a hundred miles _inside _the border.


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## svzephyr44 (Jun 26, 2000)

PCP said:


> ... I believe that the original question had to do with the fact that there is a much bigger percentage of European boats on the Caribbean compared with the few American boats in the med. To say that the Caribbean is better than the Med makes no sense. It is equally good but different, more wild even if with some places full of sailboats but the med is much more interesting in what regards history, culture, food and traditional architecture.


I don't disagree that the Med is an interesting place. But I think Americans don't sail there for five reasons: Schengen, Schengen, Schengen, Schengen and a six month sailing season vs a 12 month sailing season. The reason you see more Americans on charter is there is more bang for the buck. You fly over, get to sail, don't have to put up with 6 months of no sailing activity, and fly home when you want to. No Schengen, no wondering what the next African/Southwest Asian country is going to explode with Anti-american sentiment. If you are a tourist you get on a plane. If you are a sailor you either abandon your boat or have to sail to safety.

Plus, there are very pretty and simultaneously very inexpensive places to stay in the Caribbean. That is a large draw for both Americans and Europeans.


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

PCP said:


> ...(t)he Caribbean is better than the Med makes no sense. It is equally good but different, more wild even if with some places full of sailboats but the med is much more interesting in what regards history, culture, food and traditional architecture.
> 
> Paulo


This strikes me as a very eurocentric view. "Equally good but different." Right. Sounds suspiciously like "Separate but equal." I suppose you know what connotations that has.

Not cool.

So here we have the "wild" Caribbean (and Caribbeans?) and there we have the high culture and rich history of the Mediterranean (and Europeans?).

Some time ago you made a similar comment about the unsophisticated pleasures that American prefer, compared to the cultivated Europeans. Makes me feel better now that it is not only us Americans that lack "history, culture, food and traditional architecture" but the countries to the South of us, too.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

It IS a bit ironic that a Portuguese person would be demonstrating those attitudes when that country has always been only one notch above Ireland in the European pecking order. 

If you fail to "get" my reference, might I suggest you watch "The Commitments" ?


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## Argyle38 (Oct 28, 2010)

I would love to sail Europe. We are more cultural travelers, like the OP. We don't travel to places to sit on a beach although we do enjoy snorkeling and diving. 

Because of this, Europe is very attractive. But, we are not nearly as likely to go there as the Caribbean, and Central/South America because of the difficulty of getting there and Schengen. My wife can obtain a British passport (father was British and she was born in Canada) if she wanted so we could possibly go that route, but still, a crossing on the NE Trades is no joke. 

There are always a lot of boats for sale in the Caribbean and South America from Europeans that sail across downwind, cruise over here, then sell their boat because they also have no interest in crossing back.


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## Nostrodamus (Mar 21, 2013)

As I put the original question I will try and clarify a couple of points.
Each year there are probably about 350 to 400 Europeans that sail to the Caribbean on the ARC, the non Ark (NARK) and alone.
I believe there are very few Americans sailing the other way as we never see many in Europe. We do however see quiet a few Canadians and I suspect they own far fewer boats compared to Americans.
As British our leaders have followed you blindly into nearly every conflict you have been involved in. We have never had problems in any countries from anti British populations and neither have any Americans we have met. On the contrary they have all been more than welcome.
The sailing season is shorter but as liveaboards we all get together somewhere, Share cultures and friendships and have an Amazing winter.
In summer we do a lot of sailing as everywhere is close together and we move on often rather than just sitting on boats (about 3,000 miles a year).
We have been to America three times (not sailing). I have to say that when we were there the Americans general understanding of Geography was bad. One American taxi driver even though the UK was bigger than the USA and another person thought London was a country.
Shengan is a pain but there are many here (Australians, Swiss, Canadians, And Americans) that have not found it as bad as they though as you can get out of Shengan countries to another quiet easily (150 miles from where we are).
I personally still think the biggest problem is mindset but I don't know and that is why I asked the question.
Thank you to everyone that answered as it has been a open and interesting discussion.


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## Nostrodamus (Mar 21, 2013)

Oh and contrary to what many think you can sail all year in European waters if you wish. Just check the weather first. When in the UK we sailed all winter and got some of the best sailing around.
It does not have to be sunny to sail. You can do it wearing a good few layers of clothes and it is very satisfying.
If we do hole up for winter you can leave your boat nearly anywhere as there is not really a hurricane area and still go out.
You can also explore a new country by going inland, learn about different cultures and people and you soon realise we are nearly all the same. It is media and politicians who want to make us think the rest of the world is crazy when really it is them trying to create stories and power bases.
Most countries are very friendly and welcoming. We come from the UK and have discovered that compared to the Mediterranean countries they are less welcoming than a Kangaroos hernia.


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## ebs001 (May 8, 2006)

I can't tell you what is happening in Florida but in the Bahamas the number of American boats cruising to the Abacos in the Bahamas between winter 2008/09 and winter 2013/14 has decreased to about one third. 

Canadians make up almost half the boats there now and locals will tell you if it wasn't for the Canadians they would have had to close shop.

So it doesn't surprise me that Americans are not being seen in Europe. They are not cruising anywhere.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> This strikes me as a very eurocentric view. "Equally good but different." Right. Sounds suspiciously like "Separate but equal." I suppose you know what connotations that has.
> 
> Not cool.
> 
> ...


I don't get your point. Equally good but different means what is said. Two great different cruising locations with different strong high points. For wild I mean more close to its natural state, less men transformed places. I like those places as much as the ones where a rich culture leaved their traces for tens of thousands of years. I like them for different reasons.

I don't understand your susceptibility and I cannot see any confrontational attitude from my part.

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

SloopJonB said:


> It IS a bit ironic that a Portuguese person would be demonstrating those attitudes when that country has always been only one notch above Ireland in the European pecking order.
> 
> If you fail to "get" my reference, might I suggest you watch "The Commitments" ?


Yes I don't have a clue of about you are talking about. Do you care to explain better?

pecking order?

Pecking order or peck order is the colloquial term for a hierarchical system of social organization

Wiki

????

Regards

Paulo


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## seafrontiersman (Mar 2, 2009)

Nostrodamus said:


> Oh and contrary to what many think you can sail all year in European waters if you wish. Just check the weather first. When in the UK we sailed all winter and got some of the best sailing around.
> It does not have to be sunny to sail. You can do it wearing a good few layers of clothes and it is very satisfying.
> If we do hole up for winter you can leave your boat nearly anywhere as there is not really a hurricane area and still go out.
> You can also explore a new country by going inland, learn about different cultures and people and you soon realise we are nearly all the same. It is media and politicians who want to make us think the rest of the world is crazy when really it is them trying to create stories and power bases.
> Most countries are very friendly and welcoming. We come from the UK and have discovered that compared to the Mediterranean countries they are less welcoming than a Kangaroos hernia.


I believe that it is mostly a matter of convenience and price; its just quicker and easier to get down to the Carribean than to make it across the pond. Having said that, I have spent a fair bit of time in the Med and less time in Northern Europe and I am looking forward to going back in the not tood distant future on my own bottom. The spread of history, the architecture, the different cultures are just amazing! The people are generally welcoming and, if one acts like a gentleman and maybe picks up a little of the local lingo, you won't have an issue. In my own experience, you will never find a more warm, kind-hearted, lovely people than small town Italians and Sicilians.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

seafrontiersman said:


> .... In my own experience, you will never find a more warm, kind-hearted, lovely people than small town Italians and Sicilians.


Try Greeks small Island town's people or Turkish. They are as nice as the Italians

Regards

Paulo


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## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

seafrontiersman said:


> I believe that it is mostly a matter of convenience and price; its just quicker and easier to get down to the Carribean than to make it across the pond. Having said that, I have spent a fair bit of time in the Med and less time in Northern Europe and I am looking forward to going back in the not tood distant future on my own bottom. The spread of history, the architecture, the different cultures are just amazing! The people are generally welcoming and, if one acts like a gentleman and maybe picks up a little of the local lingo, you won't have an issue. In my own experience, you will never find a more warm, kind-hearted, lovely people than small town Italians and Sicilians.


I agree, logistics, and less US cruisers these days.

New sailboat builders like Sabre, Morris Yachts both in Maine, aren't building cruising boats(or very few). Most new sailboat activity around here has centered around 'daysailing'. Hinckely is going full bore today keeping up with motor boat orders.

Is cruising on the wane? I think it is. Or at least it's changing with a new generation.

We too have always felt welcomed in the EU that we've visited. French, Italians, UK, Scots, as US citizens, we've have had zero problems after many wonderful visits. There are exceptions all over the world but I find people treat me the way I treat them.


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## svzephyr44 (Jun 26, 2000)

ebs001 said:


> I can't tell you what is happening in Florida but in the Bahamas the number of American boats cruising to the Abacos in the Bahamas between winter 2008/09 and winter 2013/14 has decreased to about one third.
> 
> Canadians make up almost half the boats there now and locals will tell you if it wasn't for the Canadians they would have had to close shop.
> 
> So it doesn't surprise me that Americans are not being seen in Europe. They are not cruising anywhere.


(Please moderators, this is not a political comment. It could be but I have tried to keep politics out of it.)
Actually, Americans are still cruising. Just not as many of them. The economy here (actually everywhere I have been led to believe) is terrible and has been for many years. Unemployment and under-employment are high. The number of people who have left the work force is very high by traditional standards. There are also tectonic shifts in employment as a result of our new heath care law. Personal income in the US has risen very slowly over the past few years. It is a buyers market for employers. People are afraid of losing their jobs and fearful of where they would get a new job. Not an environment that supports spending money and time on recreation like sailing.

Prior to living aboard full time there were waiting lists for most good marinas in the US. I moved aboard full time in August 2009 right after the beginning of the financial crisis. I was concerned that while traveling it would be difficult to get a transient slip. What I found was marinas that were 1/3 empty. Over the subsequent years it has gotten worse not only in the US but in the Caribbean. I recently returned from a 12 island research project in the Caribbean. There was never a problem getting a slip as the marinas always had ample space. Prices for used boats dropped at the beginning of the crisis and remain low.

I would conclude that the economy is a major factor in the reduction in boats cruising.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Nostrodamus said:


> .....I have to say that when we were there the Americans general understanding of Geography was bad. One American taxi driver even though the UK was bigger than the USA and another person thought London was a country.........


You may not recognize your bias, but who would generalize a nation's knowledge based upon an interview of a taxi driver? No doubt there are less informed people everywhere.

They are not the subset that earned enough money to buy a boat and sail it anywhere, let alone over open ocean.


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## rikhall (Feb 7, 2008)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Sorry. Thats just not right.
> 
> Its once per state, and in Florida when you pass a Port of Entry. The requirement is a quick phone call to a polite operator.
> 
> Remember, its once per state.


Sorry - not so.

We have cruised in Maine for the last 14 summers and are told, when clearing customs in Eastport, that at *every new port *we arrived in, we had to contact U.S. Customs and Border Protection. Every one.

Rik


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## Nostrodamus (Mar 21, 2013)

Minnewaska said:


> You may not recognize your bias, but who would generalize a nation's knowledge based upon an interview of a taxi driver? No doubt there are less informed people everywhere.
> 
> They are not the subset that earned enough money to buy a boat and sail it anywhere, let alone over open ocean.


I don't think I have been Bias throughout this thread. I have asked questions and tried to give an opinion based on the fact I know. What I don't know I have asked... that is why I openly asked the question in the first place.
We are cruising Europe and don't find many Americans and I wondered why?

We were on holiday in Disneyland so the only Americans we really met were taxi drivers. 
This was a genuine comment to us.
I don't think a factual statement is bias.
If you go to London and took a taxi cab ride you may feel the same.
Having said that with all the immigration you would be lucky to actually find a Londoner in London.


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## Multihullgirl (Dec 2, 2010)

In regards the Bahamas:

A friend of mine had been wanting to go to the Bahamas, but when he heard the entry fee doubled from $150 to $300, he declined.

I've also seen, on sailing fora, rumors that US people in the Bahamas have been particular targets for criminals.

Spoke to another acquaintance who has some land on Cat Island. While he was away, his stuff left there (he was rebuilding his place) was cleaned out robbed. I got the impression this had happened for the second time, and he isn't rebuilding.

As to the OP question: as a cruising ground, the Caribbean is far more attractive and more easily achieved than Europe, and I would guess my opinion is shared by many in the US


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Nostrodamus said:


> I don't think I have been Bias throughout this thread. I have asked questions and tried to give an opinion based on the fact I know. ........


I did not claim you've been biased throughout, but some opinions you have offered are. Would you acknowledge that taxi drivers and foreigners in Disneyland aren't representative of the world cruising population that is choosing between Europe and the Caribbean?

Only 7% of Americans own a boat. Some incredibly small fraction of those own an ocean capable boat and ever intend to leave shore. That's the population you need to focus on.


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## seafrontiersman (Mar 2, 2009)

PCP said:


> Try Greeks small Island town's people or Turkish. They are as nice as the Italians
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


I've heard that from others too and I don't doubt it, I've been to Crete but only for two days. I am also looking forward to spending a bit more time in Britain and Ireland.

Europe is GREAT and I'm surprised to hear that more cruisers from the US don't make a trip there. The people all over Europe, especially from smaller towns and rural areas, are great and there is a LOT to see. Just act like a gentleman, respect local customs, and obey the laws and you are good to go!


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## Nostrodamus (Mar 21, 2013)

Minnewaska said:


> I did not claim you've been biased throughout, but some opinions you have offered are. Would you acknowledge that taxi drivers and foreigners in Disneyland aren't representative of the world cruising population that is choosing between Europe and the Caribbean?
> 
> Only 7% of Americans own a boat. Some incredibly small fraction of those own an ocean capable boat and ever intend to leave shore. That's the population you need to focus on.


I don't think I ever mentioned foreigners in Disneyland but you have to remember that to us Americans are foreigners.

I asked the question on this forum, a sailing forum to get sailing opinions. Do you want me to go on a taxi drivers forum and then come back with their opinions.

If you want to downgrade this thread into having a go at me please do so but I will try to stick to the things I know personally, ask opinions of those things I don't and listen to those who speak sense.


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## capt vimes (Dec 2, 2013)

Nostrodamus said:


> Having said that with all the immigration you would be lucky to actually find a Londoner in London.


that is the same all over european capitals or major cities...
i am living and working now in vienna, coming from a small 50 k inhabitants town, for 22 years, go out quite a lot but i hardly know people born and raised in vienna... they come from all over the place, austria, EU even US and Oz - just almost no viennese people... either they do not mix with the 'immigrants' or there aren't any, which i doubt... 
not even the colleagues in my work are from vienna... strange when you think about it.


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## Nostrodamus (Mar 21, 2013)

capt vimes said:


> that is the same all over european capitals or major cities...
> i am living and working now in vienna, coming from a small 50 k inhabitants town, for 22 years, go out quite a lot but i hardly know people born and raised in vienna... they come from all over the place, austria, EU even US and Oz - just almost no viennese people... either they do not mix with the 'immigrants' or there aren't any, which i doubt...
> not even the colleagues in my work are from vienna... strange when you think about it.


Hopefully we will be sailing up there. We are currently in Sicily and I have to say the locals as so open and friendly we love it here. They have really made us feel part of the country over winter.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

I think the reason for the lack of American cruisers is the economy, as mentioned above. It is WAY worse than anyone in government is admitting. The middle class has either fallen out of that category or is scared sh%$#ess that they are headed into the abyss. Everyone senses that the American economy is a deck of cards and is hunkered down. What you see in all the marinas are big-bucks boats that seem to never move; dockside condos and very few regular folks with modest cruising boats. I used to see a lot of older, affordable boats like mine but now there are very few indeed. The polarization of wealth and destruction of the middle class is very apparent on the waterways.


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## Nostrodamus (Mar 21, 2013)

smurphny said:


> I think the reason for the lack of American cruisers is the economy, as mentioned above. It is WAY worse than anyone in government is admitting. The middle class has either fallen out of that category or is scared sh%$#ess that they are headed into the abyss. Everyone senses that the American economy is a deck of cards and is hunkered down. What you see in all the marinas are big-bucks boats that seem to never move; dockside condos and very few regular folks with modest cruising boats. I used to see a lot of older, affordable boats like mine but now there are very few indeed. The polarization of wealth and destruction of the middle class is very apparent on the waterways.


We have seen it in several European countries as well this year. Spain was really struggling and the young have no jobs to go to. They have to live off families to survive. Back in the UK it is the same. Things are bad everywhere my friend.


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## capt vimes (Dec 2, 2013)

xkcd: Money Chart
look for the worker- CEO-income comparison in the top left... very interesting!


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## aquilla (Mar 3, 2014)

just one reasons stops them.. many Americans don't know the languages and are afraid of not knowing..


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## Roadking Larry (Apr 30, 2013)

> We were on holiday in Disneyland so the only Americans we really met were taxi drivers.


There's the problem, Don't you know that in the US all taxi drivers are immigrants? 

I had the pleasure of several (government sponsored) ocean voyages to the Med and northern Europe (pre- EU days). I enjoyed every place I visited and would enjoy a return visit to any or all of them. Just don't see it happening. Partly because of the politcal unrest in some of the neatest places (Egypt for one) and the time and expense involved. I could afford a week to 10 days charter in the Caribean/Bahamas/VI but not to Europe.


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

PCP said:


> The same reason there are more Europeans circumnavigating than Americans.
> In fact I see more Canadians then Americans sailing in the med.


That is because they are better liked abroad.

Since I don't have the boat, time nor money to cruise at the moment it is a moot point. But when I do I will probably be looking for the best bang for the buck. In the past I could travel for 3 weeks in Mexico for the cost of a week in Hawaii.


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## capt vimes (Dec 2, 2013)

aquilla said:


> just one reasons stops them.. many Americans don't know the languages and are afraid of not knowing..


my mother tongue is german and the only foreign language i speak is english...
if i would think the same way, there would only be UK, ireland, germany and with some very free interpretation switzerland left for me to travel in europe...
i am glad, that i do not think that way and give a damn sh*** if i speak the language of the country i am traveling to or not...  
heck i even cannot read greek, serbian or russian writing and it still does not stop me from going there...


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## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

Personally, I have no interest in ever cruising Europe on a sailboat. We have all the interesting sailing and cruising I could ever want right here on the east coast of the US. I've been to many parts of Europe on around 10 different trips (and lived in the UK for a semester of college), and next time we go, we'll hop on a plane again. I very much enjoy traveling around Europe but do not find a sailboat to be the ideal way to do it. Too much to see and do to be bogged down with the logistics of the boat.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Nostrodamus said:


> .....I have to say that when we were there the Americans general understanding of Geography was bad. One American taxi driver even though the UK was bigger than the USA and another person thought London was a country.
> ....





Nostrodamus said:


> ......I asked the question on this forum, a sailing forum to get sailing opinions. Do you want me to go on a taxi drivers forum and then come back with their opinions.
> 
> If you want to downgrade this thread into having a go at me please do so but I will try to stick to the things I know personally, ask opinions of those things I don't and listen to those who speak sense.


I have no interest in having a go at you. However, I did take offense to you forming an opinion on Americans based upon your interaction with a taxi driver and Disneyland visitors. American cruisers are giving you the answers you've asked for right here. The EU is harder to get to, more expensive and more difficult. It's not a lack of geographic knowledge.

A rational disconnect you've not acknowledged was misguided.


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

Once, I have had enough of the Caribbean, I'm heading to the South Pacific, not Europe.


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## Nostrodamus (Mar 21, 2013)

Minnewaska said:


> I have no interest in having a go at you. However, I did take offense to you forming an opinion on Americans based upon your interaction with a taxi driver and Disneyland visitors. American cruisers are giving you the answers you've asked for right here. The EU is harder to get to, more expensive and more difficult. It's not a lack of geographic knowledge.
> 
> A rational disconnect you've not acknowledged was misguided.


I have not sailed to America as yet so I don't know how hard it is to get a visa or how expensive it is in comparison.

I know that this year we have been in marina's 4 times. The rest of the time was at anchor and if you eat local foods then prices are not to bad. We sail when we can and when we cannot we either stay at anchor or only go a short distance.

We are on a pension, do not have a house or any other income so we are low budget sailors and cannot afford high prices.

A few on this thread have referred to people not liking Americans but I suspect you will find the opposite. It does amaze me that you are worried about violence abroad yet have guns at home. You have probably got more chance of being robbed or injured there than abroad.

I am trying to say that you should think about cruising this side. Problems are all surmountable. I am trying to answer perceived problem from this side as I am actually doing it and am here. Hopefully it will help someone and if anyone wants any specific information about cruising Europe then just ask.

Anyway... Enjoy your sailing where ever you sail.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

You criticize Americans for lack of knowledge of geography because you went to the U.S. and only visited Disney?

Imagine I flew into London, took a taxi to ....your Ferris wheel and then came back and claimed that the "Englishmen" I met there didn't understand world geography!


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## copacabana (Oct 1, 2007)

Nostrodamus said:


> I am trying to say that you should think about cruising this side. Problems are all surmountable. I am trying to answer perceived problem from this side as I am actually doing it and am here. Hopefully it will help someone and if anyone wants any specific information about cruising Europe then just ask.
> 
> Anyway... Enjoy your sailing where ever you sail.


Well, I don't know about the others Nostrodamus, but I hope to bring my boat to the Med for a year or two. I'd love to hear about how to get around the visa and VAT issues. if you have any advice. Would wintering over in north Africa or Turkey set the clock back for another season in Europe? What about the VAT? How long can your boat remain before you have to pay the VAT? Are older boats exempt?


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## Nostrodamus (Mar 21, 2013)

Sal Paradise said:


> You criticize Americans for lack of knowledge of geography because you went to the U.S. and only visited Disney?
> 
> Imagine I flew into London, took a taxi to ....your Ferris wheel and then came back and claimed that the "Englishmen" I met there didn't understand world geography!


The black cabs in London are all licences and the drivers take something called the knowledge which takes several years. They know nearly every route anywhere in London but outside of that they may not know where there won backside is.

I think that in most countries Geography is pretty poor. I do not exclude myself from that as I am discovering something new each time we sail. But that is what life is about, new experiences, new horizons and new friends.


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## Nostrodamus (Mar 21, 2013)

copacabana said:


> Well, I don't know about the others Nostrodamus, but I hope to bring my boat to the Med for a year or two. I'd love to hear about how to get around the visa and VAT issues. if you have any advice. Would wintering over in north Africa or Turkey set the clock back for another season in Europe? What about the VAT? How long can your boat remain before you have to pay the VAT? Are older boats exempt?


Tunisia is only 150 miles from here and we will be sailing there with some Canadians so they get time outside of Europe.
If you are serious I will ask them more.
We also have a lot of Australians here who leave the boat for a few months over winter and fly back.
I am sure there are others on this forum who "have done it" and can answer your questions.
Turkey is not to far away either but there are many places you can go if you really need to.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

Nostrodamus said:


> We do want to go to the Caribbean at some point. From the people we have spoken to some really enjoyed it but they say after a while every island is the same. ...


It sounds like the people you spoke to aren't really getting to know the islands, just the sand around them.

We enjoy meeting people. Getting off the boat, exploring, talking with someone who lives there (wherever "there" is). Everyone has a different and mostly interesting story if you take the time to listen. We've had some of our best times in cities where others claim there's nothing interesting to see and do.

I guess it might be about expectations and how much energy you're willing to put towards reaching out beyond yourself. That's not something everyone is comfortable doing.


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## Argyle38 (Oct 28, 2010)

I'm starting to think that the OP started this thread to "have a go" at Americans. He's certainly doing a good job of it.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

Argyle38 said:


> I'm starting to think that the OP started this thread to "have a go" at Americans. He's certainly doing a good job of it.


I don't know that that was his intent. The only thing that slightly annoyed me (and it's not just with this thread) is when everyone - Europeans, Americans, [insert group] - are painted with such a wide brush with no regard to individual tastes. As for this thread, there are any number of reasons why any specific American is not cruising Europe. Also, it's a big world. Europe isn't the only place to go, however nice it is.


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## magdiego (Mar 2, 2014)

Nostrodamus said:


> I have not sailed to America as yet so I don't know how hard it is to get a visa or how expensive it is in comparison.


Just curious, what stops you from sailing to America?


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## ctl411 (Feb 15, 2009)

smurphny said:


> I think the reason for the lack of American cruisers is the economy, as mentioned above. It is WAY worse than anyone in government is admitting. The middle class has either fallen out of that category or is scared sh%$#ess that they are headed into the abyss. Everyone senses that the American economy is a deck of cards and is hunkered down. What you see in all the marinas are big-bucks boats that seem to never move; dockside condos and very few regular folks with modest cruising boats. I used to see a lot of older, affordable boats like mine but now there are very few indeed. The polarization of wealth and destruction of the middle class is very apparent on the waterways.


The "middle class" never sailed to Europe, we flew once but that is gone now also.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

ctl411 said:


> The "middle class" never sailed to Europe, we flew once but that is gone now also.


no it hasn't


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## Rozz (Jun 30, 2011)

This is a fairly complex issue actually. Generaly speaking, us 'Mericans are very self-absorbed. When we do travel, we want it now and to the point. There is so much to see here, why go somewhere else that’s going to take me away for more than two weeks and i have a bunch of prep work to do beforehand.... ehhh naw im good.

Then there is the other side of us that want to travel overseas... we will get around to it when we retire. If I work hard, take my two weeks of vacation with my family locally, I can do this in my 60's. By then bug has crawled out and the itch has faded and we get r.v.'s and wonder around the country.

Then there is the fear, almost schitzo... the world loves Americans either to shake hands with them or mostly to cut off their head or ransom us.

I have had the fortunate life of being raised with my grandmother, so I spent my summer vacations (she was a Deaf school Counselor so she had summers off) traveling the country one end to the other seeing family and friends. There’s not much I haven’t seen here. I then have gone off to see other parts of the world, mostly pretty hostile or extremely poor areas. This leaves the Med, Australia, and south Pacific as my last areas I want to sail to. I had it all set, but now my significant other has traveled all of about 500mi in her life and wants to see America (sigh), so here I am, pushed off my plans to get her trained and wanting to be my cruising companion. 

As for all the other complications, I have will and have a way, I will do it. Im not the average American though. This almost introvert ideology we have makes me smirk.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

magdiego said:


> Just curious, what stops you from sailing to America?


Don't give him any ideas...


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

seafrontiersman said:


> I've heard that from others too and I don't doubt it, I've been to Crete but only for two days. I am also looking forward to spending a bit more time in Britain and Ireland.
> 
> Europe is GREAT and I'm surprised to hear that more cruisers from the US don't make a trip there. The people all over Europe, especially from smaller towns and rural areas, are great and there is a LOT to see. Just act like a gentleman, respect local customs, and obey the laws and you are good to go!


Some inside information: just don't miss what the Greeks call the small Cyclades. Their small size puts them out of the main touristic routes and there you would find mostly Greeks. You will be many times the only boat on anchorage and people are very nice. It is touristic but kind of laid back and easy. I was there last year and I will try to pass there this year again.

Island-hopping: Greece's Small Cyclades | Travel | The Guardian

Small Cyclades

Regards

Paulo


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

PCP said:


> I don't get your point. Equally good but different means what is said. Two great different cruising locations with different strong high points. For wild I mean more close to its natural state, less men transformed places. I like those places as much as the ones where a rich culture leaved their traces for tens of thousands of years. I like them for different reasons.
> 
> I don't understand your susceptibility and I cannot see any confrontational attitude from my part.
> 
> ...


Do you really not understand that people may be offended if you tell them that their countries are lacking in "history, culture, food and traditional architecture?"

Did it ever come to your mind that there is a rich and varied culture in the different countries of the Caribbean? That they may have food which may be as interesting as, gasp, Portuguese fare? Some of their architecture is about a half millenium old, is that traditional enough for you? Yes, I know there is even older stuff in the Med but did you consider that one reason why there is less of it in the Caribbean is because of Europeans who destroyed it, and killed off the "natives?"

See what I mean by eurocentric?


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

PCP said:


> Some inside information: just don't miss what the Greeks call the small Cyclades. Their small size puts them out of the main touristic routes and there you would find mostly Greeks. You will be many times the only boat on anchorage and people are very nice. It is touristic but kind of laid back and easy. I was there last year and I will try to pass there this year again.
> 
> Island-hopping: Greece's Small Cyclades | Travel | The Guardian
> 
> ...


OK, Paulo, finally something we can agree on. I loved sailing in the cyclades, at least the lesser-known islands. I could do without Thera (Santorini) and Mykonos but the smaller islands are pure gems.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

i think the title killed off much interest in this thread...unfortunately, kind of like a trigger for some...

and it has now become political and cultural question or theme versus say how long can I stay in europe? or why do cruisers from the american continent not visit europe as much as euro cruisers visit the caribe or south pacific? etc...

from my point of view being a dual citizen born in a 3rd country and having parents from different countries as well as languages Im more inclined to argue for worldy views, travel, anywhere...and enjoy cultures

that does not mean I dissrispect those who are very true to their roots and traditions...and like to stay put more...and its true some places are hard to leave so why leave?

so with that in mind my only beef is with ignorant people that have an attitude...that is one thing(found worldwide btw) that trully irks me

when someone lacks travel, knowledge or simple cultural acknowledgment of other countries, persons and cultures, languages too that really does make me mad cause saying something like I never want to see greece or france, or bolivia or china or whatever simply because you have formed some sort of opinion based on bias or hate or listening to the news too much it just irks me.

makes me sad too

its one thing to not be able to travel to places based on $$ or options, or time than simply saying I would never travel to europe just cause..

but thats me...

cheers


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## capt vimes (Dec 2, 2013)

Christian - while i agree with all of what you said, i have to mention that everybody is biased in one way or the other...
Be it from education, own experience or pure stupidity...
One could only try to realize their own misinformation and bias and try to not let it take over.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"I have to say that when we were there the Americans general understanding of Geography was bad. "
And the average American thinks "New Mexico" is a foreign nation, and couldn't write a list of all fifty states, let alone the eleven insular possessions like Puerto Rico. That's got nothing to do with the EU or anyplace else, that's just called a mediocre educational system followed up by years of other things to be concerned with.

"It does amaze me that you are worried about violence abroad yet have guns at home."
It does amaze me that you could confuse the two so badly. I have a fire extinguisher. In fact, I have several fire extinguishers. That doesn't mean I'm obsessed with fire, or that I'm especially worried by the thought of having a fire. In fact quite the contrary: Because I have a fire extinguisher, I worry less about having ANOTHER fire. Yes, I've had need to them in the past, and I find that having the means to deal with something, whether it is violence or fire, means you can _worry less_ about what to do when something bad happens. And carry on without worrying, if you're lucky enough that it doesn't happen.

As one man said when our Coast Guard recovered him, ten miles offshore in a rubber inner tube float, still calmly fishing: Well, what else was I going to do while I was stuck out here?


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

capt vimes said:


> Christian - while i agree with all of what you said, i have to mention that everybody is biased in one way or the other...
> Be it from education, own experience or pure stupidity...
> One could only try to realize their own misinformation and bias and try to not let it take over.


exactly...never stop learning or yearning is what I tell myself....or try to...

another way of speaking of which bias Im talking about is subjective narrow mindedness not just bias as a whole.

we are all biased like you say in some ways its respecting other opinions thats hard but must be done...

Id hate for everyone to think like me or someone else as what fun would that be for travelling?

It would suck to cruise to a country exactly LIKE YOURS WOULDNT IT? JAJAJA no fun in that really

again thats my biased opinion! jajaja


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Argyle38 said:


> I'm starting to think that the OP started this thread to "have a go" at Americans. He's certainly doing a good job of it.


Nah, I don't think so... However, I do believe his premise is flawed, there actually _ARE_ plenty of American 'yachtsmen' cruising the Med...

He's just been looking for the wrong flag, is all... 










Even the most novice American sailors can be surprisingly intrepid... How many among us would head over to the Med on the first boat we ever owned, such as Bill Joy has done with a 'Starter Boat' like ETHEREAL...

I'm guessing he doesn't fret much over no stinkin' Schengen rules and regulations...


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> Do you really not understand that people may be offended if you tell them that their countries are lacking in "history, culture, food and traditional architecture?"
> 
> Did it ever come to your mind that there is a rich and varied culture in the different countries of the Caribbean? That they may have food which may be as interesting as, gasp, Portuguese fare? Some of their architecture is about a half millenium old, is that traditional enough for you? Yes, I know there is even older stuff in the Med but did you consider that one reason why there is less of it in the Caribbean is because of Europeans who destroyed it, and killed off the "natives?"
> 
> See what I mean by eurocentric?


I did not said that there was not an interesting culture regarding all aspects on the Caribbean as I had not said that there are not also some wild natural places untouched on the Med. I said that wild and virgin nature is more common on the Caribbean and that culture that are an heritage of all humanity in all forms is more common on the med. After all it is there the berth of the western culture and civilization.

There are many other culturally interesting places that does not reach the status of world heritage value but the difference in the number of those sites on the Med and the Caribbean is a very good indicator of the cultural density between the two locations:





UNESCO World Heritage Centre - World Heritage List

I am talking here about culture as in its broader form including, Sculpture, painting ,architecture (Vernacular and Erudite), music, museums, history and food among other aspects.

I don't think this has nothing of Eurocentric and regarding you could do without Santorini it is dificult to understand for me since it is not only a great natural scenic place as it has some of the best examples of the Cyclades traditional Architecture.






but maybe the fact that you don't see the interest in Santorini (Tera) explains why you think that there is not anything special about the med in what regards culture or that it can be comparable with what you find on the Caribbean in quantity and quality.

Regards

Paulo


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

speaking of history I had a wonderful time reading the book CARRIBEAN forgot the author but it was fictional based on history, a big book that I thought was great...

the carribean is most definetly not lacking in history, culture or architecture...its just different...

thats like saying Peru is missing in acrhitecture but simply because you cant appreciate precisely fitted stones that NO european to date have been able to replicate and I mean that...

there is so much to learn and appreciate...

...each culture has its own "thing" if you will


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## MikeGuyver (Dec 13, 2008)

James Michner, Caribbean

And yes I believe the Maya came and went before much of Eurore was settled, their history is recorded in their architecture, some near 13,000 years old. Art, history, culture ? none is better or worse than another, different yes. 
Yes, I would like to see some of Europe's art and culture. My reason for not actually going there is more climatically driven, I've spent 60 winters in the north,(aka cold & wet) and I've had enough. It's time for tropical breezes, fruity drinks with little umbrellas and bikini clad ladies runnin around...
shoes off, toes in the warm sand. Yup, you can have Europe, Canada,and Siberia I'm headed south before the river freezes again. It'd be Caribbean if I wasn't on the left coast so it's margaritas instead of pina coladas......and that is why Americans don't visit Europe and Europeans visit the Caribbean


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## flyingwelshman (Aug 5, 2007)

PCP said:


> re. Santorini (Tera)


Thanks Paulo. We'll be in Santorini for a couple of days at the beginning of July. Now I'll have friggin' Yani going through my head! Freakin' Yani!!!

Could be worse I suppose: Nana Mouskouri.

Ah well, the scenery and food look amazing.


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

PCP said:


> ... culture that are an heritage of all humanity in all forms is more common on the med. After all it is there the berth of the western culture and civilization.
> [\QUOTE]
> 
> Oh yes, I agree with your last sentence. But by "Western culture" you mean European culture. Which is quite important but, you know, there are other civilizations besides it, some really quite old and important...
> ...


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## Nostrodamus (Mar 21, 2013)

This thread has now run on quiet a while and as usual it has drifted quiet a bit. That is no bad thing as it shows other things as well.
I have been accused of being biased and ill informed which I tried not to be but I obviously was.
Having read all the replies I will give a couple of answers and then summarise what I have learnt or think I have learnt. No doubt I will be shot at again but if you are going to ask a question or give your own views you should accept that.

We do want to sail to every place in the world but that is never going to happen. My ambition has always been to get to New Zealand. I don't know why it just has been. We were going to sail states side next year but our youngest son left the boat to start his own life and we wanted to make sure he was settled. Women in general need to know there offspring is ok and that they can get to them quickly if need be. We are both on the boat doing this and she has the right to say what she would like as much as me. On this occasion I agree with her so we have deferred the trip.

From the thread.
From the replies on here I think that Americans or those who have replied have less inclination to travel away from there own country as Europeans. I agree it is far easier for us to travel within Europe. Most places have cheap flights and are only a few hours away.
Europeans seem to have more curiosity about other countries. We like to go to another country on our vacations even though we cannot speak the language but we will try and learn.
I don't know if it is down to American media, government or pre conceptions but I felt from this thread that Americans think that so many other countries hate Americans. I think you would find that you will be welcome in most places with open arms. As a few have said.. treat people right and you will be right. We have felt far less fear of crime in the countries we have visited than our own. Americans seem very deepley patriotic about there country which is no bad thing but because someone questions that life please don't think we are having a go. Sometimes we are trying to learn.

Money... People seem concerned that they do no have enough money... we were the same but if you have a dream and want that dream to become a reality then it can be done. We sold our house and everything we had to buy a boat and live on a pension. What we are doing though is living.
Visas... we will probably find it harder and will be checked far more when we sail to America that you will find it here. We will still go and do it though. Life is full of problems but they are challenges and any sailor likes a challenge. It will not put us off or stop us coming so put some beers in the fridge for us.

I have enjoyed the thread, hopefully learnt something and thank everyone who has contributed.

Now no doubt I will be attacked over my thoughts but they are only my thoughts. I always stand to be corrected and accept that I have a lot to learn.


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## Nostrodamus (Mar 21, 2013)

Oh and by the way it is my birthday today so please be kind..for one day at least.

What did I ask for.... nothing. We cannot afford it.
What did I get .........Nothing, we cannot afford it.

What have I got.... More than I could ever have wished for. Living this life is living and I truly feel they richest and most blessed person on earth.


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## flyingwelshman (Aug 5, 2007)

Nostrodamus said:


> Oh and by the way it is my birthday today so please be kind..for one day at least.


Many happy returns.


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## seafrontiersman (Mar 2, 2009)

Nostrodamus said:


> Oh and by the way it is my birthday today so please be kind..for one day at least.
> 
> What did I ask for.... nothing. We cannot afford it.
> What did I get .........Nothing, we cannot afford it.
> ...


Happy birthday! 
Fair winds and following seas....


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Happy Birthday, N. I'm not big on birthday gifts, so whether one can afford them or not, we have something in common. I prefer the company of my family and friends for my birthday. No presents.

I hope you don't receive this as an attack, but I disagree with your conclusion on Americans and you seem convinced of what you thought to start, not what you learned here. 

First, your OP focused on cruisers, not the general population. Cruisers in America, or Europe for that matter, are going to be predominantly on the upper end of the economic spectrum. As I literally pondered every single person I know with a cruising boat, I can't think of a single one that hasn't traveled abroad. It would take me an hour to think of every city and country I've ever been within. The cruising population can't be compared to a taxi driver or typical Disney vacationer. A generalization you've still not acknowledged you made in error.

Secondly, the accessibility of foreign borders and other languages in Europe is far different from the US. The distance to travel from New England to Florida, a very commonly traveled route for those that are frozen in up here, is greater than it would take to cross all of Europe. I just flew from FL to NY yesterday. It was 78F degs in sunny palm trees when I left and -8F when I landed.

America is large enough to have everything from glaciers to deserts and from mountains to oceans. I've enjoyed visiting Europe, in fact, my wife is a British citizen. But, you can't draw conclusions on an entire country that dwarfs Europe, from a visit to Disney or a few posts on the internet. Including, however you may receive mine.


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## Multihullgirl (Dec 2, 2010)

Nostrodamus

you completely overlooked the assertions made in regards the relative difficulty of travelling by boat as compared to flight, to Europe. Several folks made that observation: it's easier to just fly to Europe and either charter or just travel inland.


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## deltaten (Oct 10, 2012)

As to theOP question;

Time
Money
Inclination

While I don't necessarily have a desire to "do" Europe; reading thru the "Visa" thread/s has surely curedme. There's just too many (similar to Europe) places in US territorial and friendly (CA) waters to even bother with any place else. Those that are driven to ply the Big Blue? Bless ya! And yer probably better inclined to deal with the headaches.

Not me; but that's just my humble opinion and YMM.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Nostradamus-
As they say in racing school "Get your head out of the boat!". You're suffering from perspective.
"...Americans or those who have replied have less inclination to travel away from there own country as Europeans. I agree it is far easier for us to travel within Europe."
You've got that backwards. The first time I had a relative from overseas visiting, we took a roadtrip. Four hours on the highway and she asked why we hadn't crossed any Customs stations yet. Well, for the vast majority of America? You can drive twelve hours and you're still in America. You can drive 24 hours and STILL BE IN AMERICA. So it is not a matter of being less inclined, but simply a matter of any short trip being a trip that can't reach the borders. Oh sure, you can fly. And again, why spend ten hours in the air flying to Europe when two will bring you to the Carib, or the Rockies, or another vacation hot spot without wasting a whole day in the air?
Much of the world has become a uniform melting pot, and we can find that in our own cities without all the travel. Much of the world has become less exotic. Fifty years ago, you couldn't find US fast food chains in London or Paris. Today? They infest the world and "local" norms are far more uniform than they used to be.
How many States are there in the EU? We've got 50 plus here, so one could easily say that "EU" residents are the ones who aren't getting "out of town" they're just visiting the next state in their own Union these days. 

"Americans think that so many other countries hate Americans. I think you would find that you will be welcome in most places with open arms."
In many places, yes. In many places, we're greeted with open hostility and we're the target of kidnappings and other violence. That's not a problem in France or Germany perhaps, but you can visit our State Department's travel advisory site to see where kidnappings and ransoms have been a bigger problem. And not just for Americans.
I'm sure a number of folks say "Why worry? We can just go to Disneyworld!" and they've got a vacation without any of those concerns. And they'll still enjoy it.


"put some beers in the fridge for us."
Oh, hadn't you heard? We're like our British cousins, we always like our beer at room temperature, we stopped chilling it ages ago. (VBG)


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## Summmitfun (Nov 3, 2013)

Nostrodamus,
Happy Birthday!
I had someone in New Zealand ask me almost the same question back in 1985. I love to travel, experience other cultures, visit historical sights. 
I can't speak for most of America, but for many, the Schengen limits are a limiting factor on cruising Europe. 90 days is simply not long enough to see even a small part of Europe. As you said, there is SO much history to see and culinary delights to experience. A trip across the Atlantic for a hurried 90 day stay is not very attractive, when a season could be spent in the Bahamas, then heading up to Canada in hurricane season.
Best wishes,
Mike


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## MikeGuyver (Dec 13, 2008)

some simple math
U.S = 3,794,100 sq. miles ( 9,826,719 sq. km. )
Europe = 3,930,520 sq. miles (10,180,047 sq. km. )

U.S. = 95% same area as Europe

Pt. Barrow Ak 71.2 deg. n. to KaLae KaLae Hawaii 18.54 deg. n. = 3700 miles

Northern most tip of Norway to somewhere in northwest Sudan = 3700 miles

Quite a bit of area to see in one lifetime either way.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Have just read through most of this thread. As an American with a blue water capable boat, having time and entering the cruising life I think I might be representative of our general thinking. 
Five years ago I spoke with my wife about world cruising. She pointed out we would need to transport the boat by ship across the Indian Ocean/Suez or go down and have a peek at Table Mountain. Since then things have gotten even worse. After discussion she and I decided we did not want to have transits that long and arduous. We had already decided we have no interest in the Southern Ocean or even just doing the Capes.
Next we discussed doing the North Atlantic gyre with loops out to see the Shetlands/Baltics/Scandinavian states and another loop out to do the north shore of the Med. After looking at cruising guides and weather this would be a multi year endeavor broken by periods where safe, enjoyable sailing was not feasible. So maintenance of a land residence would be required. Weather limits the north shore of Germany, Denmark etc. Weather can be ferocious in Bay of Biscay ad west coast of Portugal at the wrong time of year. Getting out of the Med and back into the Atlantic can be problematic as well. Typical weather patterns over a year make this make this a potentially very difficult cruise.
Then we talked about either doing the east coast of US and then Thornless Path or straight shot to BVIs. She was OK with this. 
Two years ago we built the boat. Over the last year she has done multiple transits of open water 500m+ and she is now much more comfortable on blue water. By spring the boat with be fully found with all we want on her.
We re discussed the Med. deciding neither she nor I have the interest. Most of the things we want to see in Europe are inland. Perhaps a canal barge cruise is in our future but we are not taking our boat there.
Rather snowing birding from Eastern Caribbean to N.E. for 2 years. Then down the coast to the canal to the Pacific to Thailand is the tentative plan. 
When you sit down and plan the voyage, look at the paperwork, look at the expense, look at the quality of sailing, look at the uncertainties and other factors it did not make sense for us to go to the Med. A hop to Ireland makes more sense than the Med. It's not just visa issues. Even the British Navy went to Halifax before going home timing things with the hurricane season


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

One thing I don't believe has been noted, yet: We Yanks truly fear the prospect of Med-mooring... 

It's more complicated than that, of course... But there is one thing we Americans tend to value a bit more than many Euros. Namely, our personal _'Space'_... As so many of us have been reared in suburban or rural settings, in very general terms we are simply not as accustomed to living in as close quarters as Europeans appear to be... As a result, the very tight crowding found in many Mediterranean harbors has little appeal for many Americans, and even our most popular cruising grounds and harbors don't come close to rivaling the way boats are packed into the quays in places like Croatia, in August... American sailors can be surprisingly resistant to the notion of rafting up, for example, and while many Europeans accustomed to such close quarters at home think nothing of anchoring 'on top of' a neighbor in places like the Caribbean, it seems to be primarily Americans who become a bit more uptight when confronted with such crowding...

I've explored most of the European shoreline of the Med by land, the only sailing I've done has been in Croatia... Absolutely wondrous part of the world, I'd love to get my own boat to parts of it someday... But I tend to favor avoiding the crowds, and the prospect of spending August in any of the more popular destinations would have little appeal, to me... Should I ever make it to Europe, it would more likely be to places like Scotland, or Norway, in an effort to better maintain the integrity of my own personal 'Space'...


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

I stand in total awe of Killarney or a friend who posted here as HannaH2 now taking his Boreal to high latitudes. Having done some minimal planning for such voyages I realize what a huge undertaking such travels really are.
To the poster who mentioned that he didn't have any thing to prove and didn't like that sailboats are slow. I think it's the voyage as much s the destination. It's really very nice to be on a boat sailing independent of the troubles of land. The troubles at sea ( weather, equipment failures etc.) are real. The troubles on land are mostly man made. Have yet to meet a cruiser doing because they have something to prove and seriously doubt I will but it's early yet.


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## Hudsonian (Apr 3, 2008)

Europeans -- except Russians-- spend six times more per capita on travel than Americans. When travelling abroad I see relatively few Americans. I think we chose to spend on bigger houses and cars.


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## momclarissa (Aug 13, 2009)

There is that little issue with vacation time that I haven't really seen mentioned in this thread. For those of us still working, most get only 2 to 3 weeks of time off during the year. And it seems alot of companies prefer we not take it all at one time. That said, there really isn't enough time for most of us to sail to Europe and back and still have time to see or do anything. At least flying leaves a few days to explore.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

momclarissa said:


> There is that little issue with vacation time that I haven't really seen mentioned in this thread. For those of us still working, most get only 2 to 3 weeks of time off during the year.


I've been at my job for 15 years, so I finally got 4 weeks of vacation. Party!


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

… And that’s how we got to the moon. Then we got bored and left. And when we did, we left a car up there.. with the keys still in it… Why? Because we’re the only guys going back!...

Love that commercial, but not enough to buy an electric Cadillac. 

Yes, we work too hard and take too few days off, but our rewards are a pretty enviable standard of living.


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## rgscpat (Aug 1, 2010)

I do agree that US residents cruising from the populous northeastern USA to Florida, the Bahamas, or Caribbean are making a comparable effort to northwestern Europeans sailing to the Med. 

Because of our colonial past, some Americans may still have half-buried mixed feelings about Europe, which could contribute to less travel there. For some Americans, Europe was long the only authentic standard for culture and civilization and things American weren't good enough, whereas some other Americans found Europe and Euro-centric thinking to be culturally repressive and an impediment and competitor to home-grown arts, letters, and culture. 

And, there are still probably to be found some examples of Americans with perhaps some feelings of cultural insecurity and remaining residual examples of Euro-centric condescension toward American culture. Certainly the Third Reich tried to take advantage of this in one of their infamous WWII propaganda posters that tried to show America as a barbarous, vulgar exporter of death and moral dissolution.

As an aside that might have enough interest to merit general mention rather than a private message, when Paolo and perhaps others seemed puzzled by an American cultural reference, I think it may have been that because his English is quite good, some US forum members might have expected him to catch an indirect US cultural reference. "Separate but equal" in the US refers to racial inequality and particularly to a historic period of mistreatment of African-Americans that was bookmarked by the landmark legal cases Plessy vs. Ferguson and Brown vs. Board of Education. It's a sensitive subject. So, the idea that Med and the Caribbean were "equal but different" might have struck an unfortunate chord among some Americans. And that might in turn go back to American cultural ambivalence about Europe perhaps being one more contributing factor to Americans, and cruisers among them, sometimes not being so eager to travel to Europe.


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## Nostrodamus (Mar 21, 2013)

Thank you everyone for your replies.

It has been an interesting thread and many of you have been very open in answering the original question.

I asked it because you don't see many Americans sailing abroad and you have all given valid reasons to you for not sailing in Europe and I respect those reasons.

In a year or two many of the reasons you give for not coming to Europe will be the same problems we will have to get over in going to America and beyond.

I mentioned before we had a dream that was world cruising and we will do our best to finish that dream.

In the meantime we will do what we can to help and befriend American sailors as we do sailors and cruisers of any nation we meet.

After all, no matter what country we come from we have chosen to sail and we are all part of our own special family.

Once again thank you all for your answers on this thread.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

JonEisberg said:


> One thing I don't believe has been noted, yet: We Yanks truly fear the prospect of Med-mooring...


Amazing isn't it? Such a basic skill that scares the bejeepers out of people.



JonEisberg said:


> American sailors can be surprisingly resistant to the notion of rafting up


Also interesting. There is a complete culture and etiquette for rafting alongside on docks that Americans in general just don't get.

I'm as protective of my boat and my personal space as the next tightly-wound American. At the same time I've had some great experiences rafted up. I've rarely found issues with the proximity to strangers.

At the end we are all citizens of the world. Let's go see it.


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## capt vimes (Dec 2, 2013)

JonEisberg said:


> One thing I don't believe has been noted, yet: We Yanks truly fear the prospect of Med-mooring...


that's good...
i really never thought about it, probably because i learned sailing in the overcrowded med...

i only felt once a bit uncomfortable... that was in hydra, creece where we arrived late and had to raft up in the fourth row... 
it was just that little bit too much and rather awkward to go over 3 foredecks just to get to the mooring - i felt a wee bit like an intruder...


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## Nostrodamus (Mar 21, 2013)

capt vimes said:


> that's good...
> i really never thought about it, probably because i learned sailing in the overcrowded med...
> 
> i only felt once a bit uncomfortable... that was in hydra, creece where we arrived late and had to raft up in the fourth row...
> it was just that little bit too much and rather awkward to go over 3 foredecks just to get to the mooring - i felt a wee bit like an intruder...


Being British we to are not used to med mooring, We moor alongside pontoons as does Atlantic and Northern France.
We did not even think about it before we set off.
We like our personal space which we do not think we have lost. What we have gained is so many good friends which is more important.

If you worry about being rafted 4 out try Honfleur, France in the summer where we were the eight out on a raft. We knew we would be rafted out but if we had not gone we would have missed one of the most beautiful harbours in France. It is something no one with a chance of going should miss.


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## sugarbird (Dec 23, 2013)

Rather that try to deduce why others haven't done it, here's my personal story. I looked seriously at crossing and doing the Med twice, once 30 years ago and again 5 years ago. Owned a well found 40 footer both times, and had sailed direct from Long Island to the Caribbean and back several times. Decided against it because my perception of the actual sailing in the Med was that it's often fluky, expensive and crowded, and has a shortish season.

We like Europe, but with friends and relatives living there, it's just a lot easier and cheaper to fly and drive/take the train. There are certainly great spots that I'd love to take my boat (especially in "shoulder season"), but it didn't seem like the best choice.

For that matter, the further south you get in the Caribbean the fewer US yachts you tend to see. A couple of winters ago in Admiralty Bay, Bequia MAYBE 15% of the boats were flying a US flag.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

JonEisberg said:


> One thing I don't believe has been noted, yet: We Yanks truly fear the prospect of Med-mooring...


I'm not going to admit to fearing it. To be a competent skipper, one needs to be able to play the hand they're dealt at any marina. However, one has to admit, this is the least desirable. It's not simply the more complicated approach, its the propensity for damage. Sure, you may have to slip between a couple of boats, but what about the next guy having to slip in next to you? Constant worry. Then, boarding from the transom isn't always straightforward on all ships and makeshift planking, if necessary, can chafe.



> ......... American sailors can be surprisingly resistant to the notion of rafting up......


This one marks me to a tee. After dropping a bunch on a topside paint job, no one is going to ruin it but me! 

Further, I get a little particular on how my decks are treated, what you walk on, what you can pull on, etc. I've seen too many others treat their boats as disposable and it would make me nauseous to have other climbing across.

As far as personal space goes, it depends on the day for me. Some days I want to make friends, others I want peace and quiet. Both need to be available for me to consider it good cruising grounds.


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## Nostrodamus (Mar 21, 2013)

Med mooring is no more difficult or likley to result in damage than any other type of mooring.
In some cases it is even better.
I am med moored over winter at the moment living aboard.
The other day we had 66 knots of wind. The boat did not touch it's neighbours, we are not rubbing against anything at all and we were perfectly secure.

We also carry and use lots of fenders as well.

In three years of sailing the only place we have had to raft up was in Honfleur.

Hopefully I can dispel some of your misconceptions as much as you are dispelling mine. I know that having a fear of the unknown is scary. Every time we go out and everywhere we go is unknown to us but the mind is sometimes our worst enemy.

The Brits are probably worse than many others. In marinas we have been in in the UK there were always several people saying that "one day" they will go but.. and there is always a but.... We knew they would never go but maybe cruising long term is a mindset... I don't know.
It is far easier to make excuses to not go rather than to go.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

outbound said:


> I stand in total awe of Killarney or a friend who posted here as HannaH2 now taking his Boreal to high latitudes. Having done some minimal planning for such voyages I realize what a huge undertaking such travels really are.
> &#8230;


Thanks for the compliment but not sure if it is warranted. In a very real way you don't do a circumnavigation. Instead you do a series of connected short to long voyages that gradually take you downwind until you end up pretty much where you started. Other than reading Cornell's very useful book to get a sense of when you don't want to be in certain places (led to a back of envelope kind of schedule) we did not plan the whole thing out. It was more a matter of we are here (e.g. Panama) where do we want to go next - Ecuador or Galapagos? That choice gives you certain opportunities and takes away others. Once you have done what you want there (for us, Ecuador) it is on to the next destination, here the Galapagos made perfect sense so there was no real choice to be made. Your overall timing is constrained by the next tropical cyclone season and sometimes by visas.

BTW, in our trip the only passage that came close to the challenge and conditions of Mauritius-South Africa was Norfolk-St Thomas so you can have very heavy conditions close to home. I guess the difference between these two is that going to the islands can be benign if you get lucky, going to SA will always be a challenge. I think we were lucky going to Richards Bay compared to friends who had to heave-to for five days waiting for the right conditions to cross the Agulhas. Lucky in this case meant we still had 10 days of 25 to 45 knots.


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## Nostrodamus (Mar 21, 2013)

killarney_sailor said:


> Thanks for the compliment but not sure if it is warranted. In a very real way you don't do a circumnavigation. Instead you do a series of connected short to long voyages that gradually take you downwind until you end up pretty much where you started. .


Killarney,
Although we have sailed nowhere near as far as you, you still sum up the cruising life wonderfully.
Passages are taken day by day. 
We get the best weather predictions we can and when we think it is right we go. Our destinations are sometimes chosen by winds rather than planning. 
Often we get asked where we will be in a months time but it is hard to say where you will be in a day or twos time.
You cannot really plan but look at what you have got and work with that.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

JonEisberg said:


> One thing I don't believe has been noted, yet: We Yanks truly fear the prospect of Med-mooring...
> 
> It's more complicated than that, of course... But there is one thing we Americans tend to value a bit more than many Euros. Namely, our personal _'Space'_... As so many of us have been reared in suburban or rural settings, in very general terms we are simply not as accustomed to living in as close quarters as Europeans appear to be... As a result, the very tight crowding found in many Mediterranean harbors has little appeal for many Americans, and even our most popular cruising grounds and harbors don't come close to rivaling the way boats are packed into the quays in places like Croatia, in August... American sailors can be surprisingly resistant to the notion of rafting up, for example, and while many Europeans accustomed to such close quarters at home think nothing of anchoring 'on top of' a neighbor in places like the Caribbean, it seems to be primarily Americans who become a bit more uptight when confronted with such crowding...
> 
> I've explored most of the European shoreline of the Med by land, the only sailing I've done has been in Croatia... Absolutely wondrous part of the world, I'd love to get my own boat to parts of it someday... But I tend to favor avoiding the crowds, and the prospect of spending August in any of the more popular destinations would have little appeal, to me... Should I ever make it to Europe, it would more likely be to places like Scotland, or Norway, in an effort to better maintain the integrity of my own personal 'Space'...


So you call these packed anchorages? All these pictures were taken on July or August, all with the exception of the first, last year and they are far from to be the only places where I staid alone or with very few boats around.:











The med is big and not all the areas are the same. You are mostly right in what regards central Croatia, most of the Balearic Islands and most of Italian Islands but even om those places I was sometimes the only boat on anchorage. You just not to follow the crowd. On Eastern med the situation is very different and even in what regards city quays they are far from crowded. There are so many Islands, so many little ports that is just not happening and it will be hard to happen.

Regarding rafting up, I have been cruising the med (with some interruptions on the Atlantic) for the last 12 years and never have been rafted up. Mostly the boats that you see that way are flotilla charter boats that chose to be that way for the party or just because they want to be all together and not spread by different nearby anchorages.

Regards

Paulo


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

hellosailor said:


> Nostradamus-
> ...
> Much of the world has become a uniform melting pot, and we can find that in our own cities without all the travel. Much of the world has become less exotic. Fifty years ago, you couldn't find US fast food chains in London or Paris. Today? They infest the world and "local" norms are far more uniform than they used to be.
> I live in Toronto, widely thought of as the most multicultural city in the world, with half the population being born in another country, most commonly in Asia - China, India, Pakistan, etc, but lots from elsewhere too. The school I taught in had 53! languages spoken in the home. This should make Toronto the model for the homogenized world you think exists. But, being in Italy is not remotely like being in the Italian districts of Toronto (I think there are 400,000 Italians here), let alone China being like the Chinese districts (we have 500,000 Chinese including my wife). Part of globalization is that we are becoming more similar, but only very slowly and on the periphery of what makes a country unique. Go into one of the zillions of KFCs in China and check out the menu if you want to see what I mean.
> ...




.


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## Nostrodamus (Mar 21, 2013)

PCP,
We came from Gibraltar, spent a lot of summer in the Balearic Isles and went all around Sicily. We were anchored 95% of the time (only exception was for others). We never rafted and always were able to anchor everywhere we went.
Where were the photos taken?


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## Nostrodamus (Mar 21, 2013)

Hey Killarney.. I am with you.
Sailing is a wonderful life and the places and people you see and meet along the way will form memories no one can take away.
Sometimes the perception of problems is a problem in itself but everything is surmountable. On occasions it is frustrating but a smile and a lot of patients helps.
Amongst the sailing community (especially those long term cruising) you will find a family who are more that willing to help in any way they can.


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## Multihullgirl (Dec 2, 2010)

Killarney,

the consulates get their data from more than one source. You, of course, are only one source. I learned in Statistics class that the larger the sample size, the more accurate the data….


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## Nostrodamus (Mar 21, 2013)

Multihullgirl said:


> Killarney,
> 
> the consulates get their data from more than one source. You, of course, are only one source. I learned in Statistics class that the larger the sample size, the more accurate the data&#8230;.


Sometime the most accurate data comes from someone who is there rather than a government agency who HAS to be overly critical in its releases ... just in case.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

PCP said:


> So you call these packed anchorages? All these pictures were taken on July or August, all with the exception of the first, last year and they are far from to be the only places where I staid alone or with very few boats around.:
> 
> The med is big and not all the areas are the same. You are mostly right in what regards central Croatia, most of the Balearic Islands and most of Italian Islands but even om those places I was sometimes the only boat on anchorage. You just not to follow the crowd. On Eastern med the situation is very different and even in what regards city quays they are far from crowded. There are so many Islands, so many little ports that is just not happening and it will be hard to happen.
> 
> ...


Beautiful pictures, Paulo... I'm aware that the entire Med is not necessarily crowded, everywhere, all of the time... But that is certainly part of the _PERCEPTION_ of many, on this side of the pond...

Not sure exactly why the impression that Mediterranean harbors can be crowded seems so widespread - there are not all that many F1 fans here in the States, after all... 










Another significant factor, not sure if it's been mentioned yet...

For Americans - and others such as killarney sailor - who are out there doing a circumnavigation, the classic route into the Med via the Red Sea/Suez Canal has been pretty much taken off the table in recent years by the issue of Somali piracy in the Gulf of Aden...

That has dramatically reduced the numbers of cruisers taking that route, and as a result going around the Cape of Good Hope has greatly reduced the number of North Americans who will sail from SA up to Europe first, before returning back home...


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

rgscpat said:


> ...
> 
> As an aside that might have enough interest to merit general mention rather than a private message, when Paolo and perhaps others seemed puzzled by an American cultural reference, I think it may have been that because his English is quite good, some US forum members might have expected him to catch an indirect US cultural reference. "Separate but equal" in the US refers to racial inequality and particularly to a historic period of mistreatment of African-Americans that was bookmarked by the landmark legal cases Plessy vs. Ferguson and Brown vs. Board of Education. It's a sensitive subject. So, the idea that Med and the Caribbean were "equal but different" might have struck an unfortunate chord among some Americans. And that might in turn go back to American cultural ambivalence about Europe perhaps being one more contributing factor to Americans, and cruisers among them, sometimes not being so eager to travel to Europe.


You are right.

I should not have simply assumed that someone from Portugal could have anticipated that a description like "equal but different," applied to countries with majority black populations, would ruffle feathers in the US, including mine.

I suppose in that respect I am guilty of being US-centric, the analogue of what I accused Paolo of.

Mea culpa.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Nostrodamus said:


> PCP,
> We came from Gibraltar, spent a lot of summer in the Balearic Isles and went all around Sicily. We were anchored 95% of the time (only exception was for others). We never rafted and always were able to anchor everywhere we went.
> Where were the photos taken?


The last time I went cruising on the Balearic Islands was 3 years ago; 4 and 5 Years ago I was on Sardinia and Corsica and last year besides Eastern Med I was cruising in Sicily, Eollian Islands and South of Italy and I always found a nice spot to anchor when I wanted to and that means almost all days because only very exceptionally I go to ports. Even so I have been along the years in the ports or marinas of Mahon, Fournells, Alghero, Oristano, Castel Sardo, Arbatax, Ajjacio, Palma de Maiorca, Porto Ferraio, Gibraltar, Cartagena, Ceuta, Alicante, La Manga, Porto Banus, Estepona, just to mention some and I was able to find a place, I mean a normal place without rafting even if in some of those places marinas are expensive.

Saying this I would say that probably the worst place is central Croatia where most of the spots to anchors are taken by concessioned buoys. It cost between 20 and 30 euros for a 41ft boat and they take your garbage away. Even so you can find places to anchor on the coast, but difficult on the Islands. Much better on the North Croatia and south Croatia where it is probably easier to find a place than on the other Islands of the western med. However port places on quays are not very expensive and due to the large number of them (on all small Islands) it is easy to find one with a place to stay, even on central Croatia.

On Eastern med it is all much easier, less expensive and less crowded, the Aegean even less than the Ionian. Quay places are very easy to get and not expensive. About 17 Euros for a 41ft (electricity and water apart when it is available)

The first picture is in Stintino, North of Sardinia, the second one on the Little Cyclades (Donusa), the third on the west coast of Kerkira (Corfu) the next one on Soverato, south mainland Italy on the sole of the boot and the last one on Scilla, mainland Adriatic Italy at the entry of the Messina strait.

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

JonEisberg said:


> Beautiful pictures, Paulo... I'm aware that the entire Med is not necessarily crowded, everywhere, all of the time... But that is certainly part of the _PERCEPTION_ of many, on this side of the pond...
> 
> Not sure exactly why the impression that Mediterranean harbors can be crowded seems so widespread - there are not all that many F1 fans here in the States, after all...
> 
> ...


The truth is that you have both things, I mean crowded marinas and marinas were you can find a place. You will have a big difficulty in finding a place on trendy places and sometimes it is not the difficulty but the price. Two years ago my wife suggested that we could stop at the Capri marina since it was almost October and the prices could not be that high. The Island of Capri has a problem in what regards anchoring unless you own a 20m boat. There are good bottoms to anchor but the deeps start at 20m and go on to 30 and more.

They made us a special price since they have plenty places that they would not occupy: 200 euros for the night for a 41ft boat.

You can see what I thought about that


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## Nostrodamus (Mar 21, 2013)

I suppose another problems have and one we will face when we get there are the different power voltages.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

rgscpat said:


> ...
> 
> As an aside that might have enough interest to merit general mention rather than a private message, when Paolo and perhaps others seemed puzzled by an American cultural reference, I think it may have been that because his English is quite good, some US forum members might have expected him to catch an indirect US cultural reference. "Separate but equal" in the US refers to racial inequality and particularly to a historic period of mistreatment of African-Americans that was bookmarked by the landmark legal cases Plessy vs. Ferguson and Brown vs. Board of Education. It's a sensitive subject. So, the idea that Med and the Caribbean were "equal but different" might have struck an unfortunate chord among some Americans. And that might in turn go back to American cultural ambivalence about Europe perhaps being one more contributing factor to Americans, and cruisers among them, sometimes not being so eager to travel to Europe.


It seems that in all this time you guys did not yet learn that is Paulo, not Paolo

No, I had not an idea. Anyway I did not said separate but equal but equal but different. I guess this has not any problem for am European that understands that the richness of Europe is the richness of their different cultures all valuable but obviously different.

Regards

Paulo


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## capt vimes (Dec 2, 2013)

JonEisberg said:


> Not sure exactly why the impression that Mediterranean harbors can be crowded seems so widespread - there are not all that many F1 fans here in the States, after all...


at least it is 'orderly' crowded...


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## capt vimes (Dec 2, 2013)

Nostrodamus said:


> I suppose another problems have and one we will face when we get there are the different power voltages.


granted!
our tools just fail to work over there, probably 'thinking' something on the line 'i do feel a slight tickle, but i will wait til he plugs me in correctly...' 
whereas their tools might just melt...


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Probably a shortage of shore power outlets.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Still once you get away from the charter centers the Caribbean is pretty empty too. Just took a sister ship from BVI to George Town. Had one stop in Mayaguana to get some un interrupted sleep. Saw one boat anchored in Mayaguana. Just them and us in anchorage. Saw three sailboats headed south while we headed north. Saw total of 5 fish boats, one tanker , one container ship and two cruise ships off on the horizon. Empty and nice. As I cruise and see more islands I'm struck how diverse the cultures are. Sure I guess the anchorage in George Town is jammed full with hundreds of sailboats but there is still ~75-100' between them.


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## Ashley Gracile (Feb 17, 2014)

canadians always find thier way to wqrm weather.. they have too!


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## capt vimes (Dec 2, 2013)

Ashley Gracile said:


> canadians always find thier way to wqrm weather.. they have too!


Well, if they seek colder, canadians have to swap their boats and go ice sailing...


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Can't you allow for acceptable input before invertor/charger then get US standard 60hz AC off batteries then invertor bypassing issues? DC stuff will run the same. Know little about this as too date shore power hasn't been an issue and have solar/wind to keep batteries up but would like to learn.


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## capt vimes (Dec 2, 2013)

There are a lot of different voltages and frequencies worldwide...
The hertz are usually not a big issue, the voltage is!
Anything built for lower voltage will burn its fuses or the motor or the whole if plugged into a higher output plug...
And every country insist in keeping their system and making it the standard...


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

Good map.

Our boat came with a built-in transformer and two power inlets on deck one for 230V and one for 120V. It seemed to work fine, we were plugged in a lot in Australia and South Africa. The other issue is that the plugs are different in different countries. We bought a non-marine extension in Australia that was rated for the current. The nice thing is that with 230v the cords are much smaller diameter and quite inexpensive. When we got to South Africa we cut off the Oz plug and installed the SA one. When we got to Simonstown (and later Cape Town) they had a different plug, apparently the marine standard that had not appeared in the eastern part of the country. So bought another plug and cut off the first SA plug - getting a growing collection of plugs.


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## capt vimes (Dec 2, 2013)

what puzzles me more than the voltage on the grid is the two different lateral systems...
the difference is marginal but can result in catastrophic accidents if approaching a canal or harbor in bad light thinking you are in the other one...
the buoys and tons even have the same shape, the coloring is just the opposite...
not so confusing now for one with a red - green color blindness but for all the rest... 
i really do not see the need for that!


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

I'm confused. If you had a transformer to charge your batteries through a smart charger couldn't you just use the AC/DC outlets on your boat as you would in your home country? As long as any source went through your invertor why would this be a problem? Is that what Killarney is saying?


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

Our transformer goes from 230v to 115v so if we are plugged in (using the appropriate cord and connector on deck), it is exactly the same as being plugged into 115v. We can use our 115v charger and cabin plugs. i am not an expert, but I assume we end up with 115v 50 Hz instead of 60 Hz, but we noticed no problem as a result.

No idea how much the transformer cost since it was on the boat, but it is 30 year old GE thing that is quite large (lives in the engine room). It worked fine after probably not being on for 25 years (first owner went to the Med in the mid 80s, but next two stayed in the US). I understand that in some or all of the EU, portable power tools work on 115v so they sell fairly cheap portable transformers there. You run a 230v cord from the dock to the transformer which sits on the deck of the boat (they are waterproof). You then run a short cord from the transformer to your 30 amp 115v plug and 'viola' you have all the comforts of home.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

I noticed some latop chargers would get really really hot despite being labelled for use in 110-230volts

this is mostly a result of what inverter and what wave pattern you are using or frequency but it didnt happen with the other laptop being used for plotting

not all inverters are created equal in this respect or chargers for that matter


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

capt vimes said:


> what puzzles me more than the voltage on the grid is the two different lateral systems...
> the difference is marginal but can result in catastrophic accidents if approaching a canal or harbor in bad light thinking you are in the other one...
> the buoys and tons even have the same shape, the coloring is just the opposite...
> not so confusing now for one with a red - green color blindness but for all the rest...
> i really do not see the need for that!


It does not make any particular sense but neither group is going to change so we are stuck with it. We did not have any particular problem switching from one to another since the changes (for us) were so far apart. Sort of like which side you are driving on when you rent a car. For a long time (New Zealand, Australia, Indonesia (didn't drive there, not nuts), and South Africa we were on the left side so it became second nature. Nasty when we came back to Canada with RH drive on a 12 lane highway. The nastiest one is the USVI where you drive on the left, but most of the cars are RH drive. That would drive me nuts. When we were in LH drive countries I was fine once I was sitting behind the wheel. Seemed natural to drive on the left. Of course, more than a few times I went to sit on the passenger side when I was looking to drive.


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## capt vimes (Dec 2, 2013)

hehe
i always start the windscreen wipers in some RH cars when i want to put on the indicator... 
in some cars the levers for that gizmos are swapped as well and in others not... the british are to be blamed for that nonsense!


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

Minnewaska said:


> Because America is nice enough to stay and cruise and Europe is screwed up enough to want to escape.


I couldn't disagree more.

The med is one of my top two destinations to cruise in the world. I hope someday to have checked off there and the South Pacific. Since I'm in the west coast I'm working towards the South Pacific.

I think most of America is uninspiring to cruise. People on here are criticizing sailing 6 months in Europe when they probably live in New England an it's 0 degrees right now.

I can't even imagine how you can compare cruising Maryland or Florida to Italy or Greece!

The Mediterranean is world class. The only world class place we have is Alaska and it's only for certain people.

I can understand if you like the comforts of home, but that has nothing to do with not cruising Europe, that has to do with not cruising anywhere.

I don't think its a good thing that Americans would rather buy stuff and sit at he than explore the world because they may have to be at sea for 30 days on their 45 foot comfortable boat.

I was reading the electronics thread in gear and maintenance and the amount of money people put into their stuff they could instead cruise the world for a year. But instead they buy expensive chartplotters. What do you even need all this expensive equipment for if you never stray far from home? Don't you have it all memorized by now?


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

While I agree on a lot of stuff with people I have befriended on here and elsewhere the above to me would be one of the great ways of disagreeing with the quoted sentence

I too think that was way off....and have no idea how someone could say such a thing but I see where he is coming from...and respect it even though I couldnt fathom being frozen for 4 months of the year or cold for that matter.

and I too agree on the buying crap cause catalogs and westmarine and the buddy next to you at the dock say so is whats really wrong, especially to a potential cruiser

just say no was my motto for a long time while provisioning for my trips..

and I would like to add that even though the med, now is especially hard to cruise on a budget, and very paperworky and still bureacratic and troublesome sometimes, its hard to beleive that that alone is enough to dissuade you from seing athens, or cyprus, or the adriatic or french and italian rivieras or the balearics...etc...etc...etc...

if you love history you cant say no to the med or europe. its just a fact.

I posted before that one of the great things of the med is the fact that one place can be exclusive, high end, epxensive all out and around the corner you get the budget gang, at anchor, chilling sipping some table wine eating some cheese

*probably naked* like life is all good

which in a euro sense is true

europeans have a much better in my opinion take on life, they are more familiy oriented, enjoy vacations as a family and explore and travel more as a family...work is not all, life is...so enjoy it.

ever been to spain on semana santa or summer vacation? all freeways are jammed with people taking a break from work

and work is 7 hours a day 4 days a week for many places now mandated by law

now that can explain a lot of why spain is passing through one of its worst crisis since the civil war but it also shows how *when life is good they live life to the max *and when its bad they are frugal and eat tripe and bread and still have a glass of wine and live life

one can sense that too in most of latin america, asia...etc...


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

If I understood Paolo correctly in much of Europe one has to demonstrate you are a competent mariner by holding a credential saying you passed a course or took a test. I am unaware of the details. I wonder if this is true for foreign sailors just passing through, exactly what credential is required and the details of procuring these credentials. When I asked him wouldn't the simple fact you sailed across the pond suffice he said no. If this is so it is a significant obstacle. 
I have radar, AIS, SSB, and multiple chart plotters. I use them all. Radar picks up the fish boats who rarely have AIS once you get outside the US. Set the chartplotters to do different things which is very helpful. AIS is wonderful especially in dodging ships as the course and point of closet approach is given with a click. Wonderful to get girbs from satphone or SSB. Please don't say it's overkill as for some particularly when overtired from little sleep they are very helpful.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

christian.hess said:


> ...
> 
> europeans have a much better in my opinion take on life, they are more familiy oriented, enjoy vacations as a family and explore and travel more as a family...work is not all, life is...so enjoy it.
> 
> ...


And no place better than Andalusia: Olé

Once I thought about having the boat in Isla Canela instead of Algarve just to be an hour away from Sevilha.

where in any other place they could turn a religious feast in an huge pagan party? Where in any other place you could say to a girl that she is more beautiful than the Virgin do Rocio, (the one from the Bible) and got a big smile of pure joy?

Do you know the "Romaria" de la virgen del Rocio?






Regards

Paulo


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

To me the EU just doesn't sound very friendly, kind of like Australia. I'm sure the people are probably friendly, but you hear horror stories about cruisers being hassled and I think it turns people off. Australia is a place I think a lot of people would like to go, for example, but the stories that have been posted about people's bad experiences make it sound horrible. The EU's VAT and other fees also sound like a nightmare to deal with.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

outbound said:


> If I understood Paolo correctly in much of Europe one has to demonstrate you are a competent mariner by holding a credential saying you passed a course or took a test. I am unaware of the details. I wonder if this is true for foreign sailors just passing through, exactly what credential is required and the details of procuring these credentials. When I asked him wouldn't the simple fact you sailed across the pond suffice he said no. If this is so it is a significant obstacle.
> I have radar, AIS, SSB, and multiple chart plotters. I use them all. Radar picks up the fish boats who rarely have AIS once you get outside the US. Set the chartplotters to do different things which is very helpful. AIS is wonderful especially in dodging ships as the course and point of closet approach is given with a click. Wonderful to get girbs from satphone or SSB. Please don't say it's overkill as for some particularly when overtired from little sleep they are very helpful.


I can speak for spain in which this is very true, captains hat and all...my friend showed me the huge books of the merchant marine he had to use for the exams and all

he is absolutely and 100% able under law to captian even big tankers...

pleasure sailors in some eu contries have it hard...the amount of stuff they need to do only to "cruise" even their own waters makes me appreciate how easy it is over in the americas....

I mean in the states its unbeleivable how easy it is

buy a boat, bill of sale, straight to dmv or document with coast guard

get a letter in the mail 2 weeks later boat is yours and you arefree to do whatever...now I heard some places are getting strict on how free you are to move but think about it

even here in my measly el salvador they are now requiring you to get zarpes to go from port to port and for some reason this will cost $40 so they do one decent thing and slap on a stupid thing

it used to be free


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Not quite, Christian. A number of US states have made it mandatory for any power boat operator to have a basic certification of competency now. New Jersey (which shares part of NY harbor) requires it for everyone. Florida requires it for everyone under a certain age, this is referred to as "grandfathering" the older operators and allowing them to continue, while putting a burden on the new ones. Laws will of course vary in each state.

Also, a recreational foreigner passing through another sovereign's waters, like a US boat owner passing through Spain and Portugal, cannot be required to have their certifications. Vessels in transit are never the same as vessels in their native waters. Aside from that being international law, there is the practical aspect of "Well, they survived and got here, right?" as ocean passages sometimes, not always but sometimes, are a competency exam on their own.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

I agree...think we are saying the same thing, i said MOST are very very very easy to operate and buy boats(especially when comparing to eu countries)

and never was I reffering to vessels in transit

I too have heard horror stories about australia, especially for cruisers from some countries, nz a bit less but still strict

again I have owned boats in only 2 states so that doesnt make me a conoisseur but at least in california it has been a walk in the park to own and operate pleasure craft

I have heard they are imposing more laws now...but hey...thats life


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

South Africa has a very rigid system for local sailors. If you captain any boat outside a harbour you need to have the local yachtmaster certificate which is far from a casual undertaking to get. This rule does not apply to foreign boats.

You have to file a 'flight plan' to say you are going from Durban to East London for example. This one does apply to all boats. On one level it makes sense since that coast can be a bit iffy at times, but the problem is that it is file but no one seems to check if you arrive at the next stop so it is pointless. When we came into East London with the plan to stay one night (anchored in the harbour and not getting off) we changed our mind and decided to leave and do an overnight to the next stop. The harbourmaster called on the VHF and said we had to re-anchor and come ashore to file the FP. We were travelling with a Brazilian couple and he launched his dinghy to take us ashore for the paperwork. When we got back to the boats he had almost dragged into the harbour wall (holding was terrible which is why we decided not to stay). In another place we heard a Spanish single-hander in a similar situation suddenly develop the inability to speak English when he was told to come ashore and file a FP. "Flying? I not flying, I sailing to Puerto Elizabeth. Thank you, signor, have a nice day" Well not a direct quote but you get the idea.

It is interesting here that there is often a tension between the 'we have the right to go out and challenge the sea' crowd and the 'why is this fool out there costing the rescue services so much when he clearly is clueless' crowd. Not sure where the truth lies. I know in Canada you need a Pleasure Craft Operators Card which seems only an excuse to pay someone $40 or whatever. Take the test online and if you fail it you just take it again for free. I know that is not the answer.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"Most" of our states have no ocean access, and few Great Lakes. The shift to mandatory certification for powerboat drivers has really gained ground in the last few years and I would expect it to be normal in the coastal states "soon". Consider that boaters from NY regularly cross the line and enter New Jersey. NY requires no certification at all, while NJ doesn't exempt or grandfather anyone. A very radical shift in position, but that's the trend now.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

killarney_sailor said:


> South Africa has a very rigid system for local sailors. If you captain any boat outside a harbour you need to have the local yachtmaster certificate which is far from a casual undertaking to get. This rule does not apply to foreign boats.
> 
> You have to file a 'flight plan' to say you are going from Durban to East London for example. This one does apply to all boats. On one level it makes sense since that coast can be a bit iffy at times, but the problem is that it is file but no one seems to check if you arrive at the next stop so it is pointless. When we came into East London with the plan to stay one night (anchored in the harbour and not getting off) we changed our mind and decided to leave and do an overnight to the next stop. The harbourmaster called on the VHF and said we had to re-anchor and come ashore to file the FP. We were travelling with a Brazilian couple and he launched his dinghy to take us ashore for the paperwork. When we got back to the boats he had almost dragged into the harbour wall (holding was terrible which is why we decided not to stay). In another place we heard a Spanish single-hander in a similar situation suddenly develop the inability to speak English when he was told to come ashore and file a FP. "Flying? I not flying, I sailing to Puerto Elizabeth. Thank you, signor, have a nice day" Well not a direct quote but you get the idea.
> 
> It is interesting here that there is often a tension between the 'we have the right to go out and challenge the sea' crowd and the 'why is this fool out there costing the rescue services so much when he clearly is clueless' crowd. Not sure where the truth lies. I know in Canada you need a Pleasure Craft Operators Card which seems only an excuse to pay someone $40 or whatever. *Take the test online and if you fail it you just take it again for free. I know that is not the answer.*


thats just a quick way to make bucks...works well, especially in corrupt countries like ours...we have laws here that get passed then shut down within months but in those months the amount of revenue WHOEVER makes with these laws is crazy!


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

hellosailor said:


> "Most" of our states have no ocean access, and few Great Lakes. The shift to mandatory certification for powerboat drivers has really gained ground in the last few years and I would expect it to be normal in the coastal states "soon". Consider that boaters from NY regularly cross the line and enter New Jersey. NY requires no certification at all, while NJ doesn't exempt or grandfather anyone. A very radical shift in position, but that's the trend now.


I would consider it a good trend considering driving a car is easier than sailing yet requires you to have not only license, but insurance at least 3rd party and well you know the whole points system, no drink and drive, etc

I mean in california this has been an ongoing topic for years


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

killarney_sailor said:


> South Africa has a very rigid system for local sailors. If you captain any boat outside a harbour you need to have the local yachtmaster certificate which is far from a casual undertaking to get. This rule does not apply to foreign boats.
> 
> You have to file a 'flight plan' to say you are going from Durban to East London for example. This one does apply to all boats. On one level it makes sense since that coast can be a bit iffy at times, but the problem is that it is file but no one seems to check if you arrive at the next stop so it is pointless. When we came into East London with the plan to stay one night (anchored in the harbour and not getting off) we changed our mind and decided to leave and do an overnight to the next stop. The harbourmaster called on the VHF and said we had to re-anchor and come ashore to file the FP. We were travelling with a Brazilian couple and he launched his dinghy to take us ashore for the paperwork. When we got back to the boats he had almost dragged into the harbour wall (holding was terrible which is why we decided not to stay). In another place we heard a Spanish single-hander in a similar situation suddenly develop the inability to speak English when he was told to come ashore and file a FP. "Flying? I not flying, I sailing to Puerto Elizabeth. Thank you, signor, have a nice day" Well not a direct quote but you get the idea.
> 
> It is interesting here that there is often a tension between the 'we have the right to go out and challenge the sea' crowd and the 'why is this fool out there costing the rescue services so much when he clearly is clueless' crowd. Not sure where the truth lies. I know in Canada you need a Pleasure Craft Operators Card which seems only an excuse to pay someone $40 or whatever. Take the test online and if you fail it you just take it again for free. I know that is not the answer.


killarney you really made me laugh here

the spanish are rugged and stubborn...and I remember scenes almost exactkly like this to the T

I cruised 2/3 around with a spanish couple, once theree were about 8 of us(spanish boats) at one time and we were nicknamed the spanish armada anytime we cobbled together

too funny

fun times though...man the memories!


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

northoceanbeach said:


> I couldn't disagree more.


It was meant a bit tongue in cheek. Nevertheless, the premise of the OP is that more Europeans leave Europe than Americans leave the US. One legitimate theory is that American like it at home better.



> I think most of America is uninspiring to cruise.


All entitled to their own opinion. But, how much of it have you cruised?


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> > Originally Posted by northoceanbeach
> >
> > I think most of America is uninspiring to cruise.
> 
> ...


Well, let's hope he never makes it to New England... Myself, I've always found Maine to be especially uninspiring...


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

My friend is going to school for two years starting in June so hopefully I'll get to explore beautiful Maine. How's the sailing the last few months by the way? Better than she's had it in Hawaii? Post a picture from the last four months, not last year. 

Maine is very small. America is good but most is just pedestrian. I appreciate the point about our free laws more than anything. I like America. I do. 

I may not have sailed much of it but I've been almost everywhere. Every state besides Maine and Alaska. The best of it in my opinion, California and Hawaii, seem to get the least mentions on here. 

But it's not Greece, Italy, Spain or Croatia. Not by a long shot.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Actually, Maine is about 50% larger in area than Croatia. You can look up the others yourself.

Land in Maine is largely owned by the timber companies, and there are few roads except for those up the coast and the ones that are (surprise) privately owned by those timber companies penetrating their land. So, Maine isn't "small", it is more of a very large but private club, a lot of undeveloped forest, other than along the shore.

As to whether America is a good cruising ground...hahaha. Cruising implies seacoast, and most of the US _isn't _on the two coasts. Folks in Nebraska would agree with you, but wonder why on earth "cruising" and "Nebraska" would ever be used in the same sentence anyway.

Of course, they might also wonder why on earth you were going to Croatia, which was never on anyone's Grand Tour plans anyhow.


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## Nostrodamus (Mar 21, 2013)

In the last three years cruising round Europe I have never once been asked for any form of certificate to prove my competence to sail.
In general the requirement is you should have the certification from what ever country your boat is registered in (the flag you fly).
In the UK anyone can sail their own boat with no qualifications what so ever and we can usually do the same throughout Europe.
Even in three years we have only ever been asked for the ships papers (proof of ownership) and passports twice by local police. nothing else was required.
Going into marinas you will usually be asked for proof of ownership, passport numbers (they are not interested in visas normally) and insurance. 
We spent a year sailing and anchoring in several countries and as far as they were aware we were never there as we never produced any paperwork to anyone and was never asked for it.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

northoceanbeach said:


> My friend is going to school for two years starting in June so hopefully I'll get to explore beautiful Maine. How's the sailing the last few months by the way? Better than she's had it in Hawaii? Post a picture from the last four months, not last year.
> 
> Maine is very small. America is good but most is just pedestrian. I appreciate the point about our free laws more than anything. I like America. I do.
> 
> ...


You really need to cruise the East coast to form your opinion. I've sailed between NYC and Maine for 40 years and I bet I haven't been to a quarter of its ports. That is extraordinarily different than the West Coast. You can find anything from seclusion to tourist traps and five star restaurants to beach shacks.

Actually, I just made it to Maine for the first time a few years ago. I spent a week in Penobscot Bay alone and didn't see a fraction of it. Passed a zillion anchorages and islands as I had to get back to RI. I have never, in my lifetime, had a season go by, where I haven't gone somewhere new. This summer there is a little neck on Long Island that we used to anchor in as kids (40 years ago) that I hope to get back to for the first time since!

Yes, Maine's season is short, but you just move up and down the coast to find the weather you like. There is no possible way to explore everything from the Keys to Bar Harbor in a lifetime. No possible way.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

northoceanbeach said:


> My friend is going to school for two years starting in June so hopefully I'll get to explore beautiful Maine. How's the sailing the last few months by the way? Better than she's had it in Hawaii? Post a picture from the last four months, not last year.


Sorry, I didn't realize a locale had to afford cruising year-round to "inspire"... 



northoceanbeach said:


> The best of it in my opinion, California and Hawaii, seem to get the least mentions on here.


Hopefully when you get to sail in places like Maine, or the Chesapeake, you'll see that they can afford far more cruising opportunities than California - which, especially considering the length of it's coastline, offers remarkably few real "cruising grounds" beyond places like the Sacramento Delta, or the Channel Islands...

Interestingly, the total length of the tidal shorelines of Maine and California are almost identical... Anyone want to hazard a guess as to which offers the greater number of potential anchorages?


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## Coquina (Dec 27, 2012)

Very short version:
The vast majority of Americans, when asked about their idea of sailing heaven, will describe a place that is always warm, with a white sandy beach, and crystal clear water. Cheap rum helps. Taking off from Annapolis to Bermuda gets me most of that in 5-7 days. Given more time you can head south and get even more of it. Heading to the EU, unless you want to motor 3,000 miles in light and variable winds, involves going north-east to follow the prevailing winds and currents back to Europe. This can be cold. This just is not what most of us are after. If I am going to spend a year or two or three on my boat it is going to be someplace where shorts and t-shirts are the only clothes I ever need to think about 

EDIT - Here is a Disney analogy. A resident of Fargo, ND noticed many more people drive to Florida from Fargo ND for vacation than come the other way. He tried and failed to understand why Floridians are not driving to North Dakota


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

Coquina said:


> Very short version:
> The vast majority of Americans, when asked about their idea of sailing heaven, will describe a place that is always warm, with a white sandy beach, and crystal clear water. Cheap rum helps. Taking off from Annapolis to Bermuda gets me most of that in 5-7 days. Given more time you can head south and get even more of it. Heading to the EU, unless you want to motor 3,000 miles in light and variable winds, involves going north-east to follow the prevailing winds and currents back to Europe. This can be cold. This just is not what most of us are after. If I am going to spend a year or two or three on my boat it is going to be someplace where shorts and t-shirts are the only clothes I ever need to think about
> 
> EDIT - Here is a Disney analogy. A resident of Fargo, ND noticed many more people drive to Florida from Fargo ND for vacation than come the other way. He tried and failed to understand why Floridians are not driving to North Dakota


Boat drinks
By: jimmy buffett
1979

Boat drinks
Boys in the band ordered boat drinks
Visitors scored on the home rink
Everything seems to be wrong

Lately, newspaper mentioned cheap air fare
I gotta to fly to saint somewhere
I'm close to bodily harm

Twenty degrees and the hockey games on
Nobody cares they are way too far gone
Screaming boat drinks, something to keep em all warm

This morning, I shot six holes in my freezer
I think I got cabin fever
Somebody sound the alarm

Id like to go where the pace of life's slow
Could you beam me somewhere Mr. Scott?
Any ol place here on earth or in space
You pick the century and I'll pick the spot

Oh I know, (I know)
I should be leaving this climate
I got a verse but can't rhyme it
I gotta go where it's warm

Boat drinks
Waitress I need two more boat drinks
Then I'm heading south fore my dream shrinks

I gotta go where it's warm (I gotta go where it's warm)
I gotta go where it's warm (I gotta go where it's warm)
I gotta go where it's warm!

I gotta go where there a'int any snow
Where there a'int any blow
Cause my fin sinks so low
I gotta go where it's warm


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## Coquina (Dec 27, 2012)

Another thought:
Many EU boats head to the Caribbean.
Many USA boats head to the Caribbean.

There must be something there that attracts them 

And yet another:
The demographic that sails a boat capable of an ocean crossing and lives on the East Coast has almost NO ONE that has not been to Europe at least once if not many times. We just might be more interested in far off tropical islands than 1st World countries that we have been to many times and are kind of like home. Look - a McDonalds!


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

West coast beautiful but 
water is cold
few harbors and far between.(except PWN)
easy to go south but hard to go north
marinas are expensive as is cost of living

east coast
many harbors most a day sail away. Even with 6 1/2' draft two or three multi day transits on the outside gets you to the Bahamas safely
Fjords and empty places Downeast and on barrier islands along most of it
Gorgeous wild life. Good fishing with just yo yo's off the stern. And you can eat them without fear of illness.
Multiple major cities along the way. Can stop along the way and get your fill of cultural events while still living on the boat.
Not as difficult to go north as well as south.

Nope like east coast. When I leave for good- Caribbean then Pacific. Spent enough time messing around in Europe.( may charter in Turkey-have friends who have house there)


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## Hudsonian (Apr 3, 2008)

Thirty years ago I met an elderly couple on the Virgin Gorda where they were laying their boat up for the summer and flying home to Bainbridge Island, Washington. They had bought their boat -- a Fisher 33 as I recall -- in England and had taken eight years to sail to the BVI via Turkey. They would return in their boat in the Fall and would continue the pattern of winters aboard and summers at home. They estimated that they would take four years to get their boat home. It sounds like a nice way to cruise.


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## CaptainForce (Jan 1, 2006)

We've taken about a dozen trips to Europe mostly by plane,- once by a large ship. Like many others we cruise with the seasons up and down the East US Coast. We are ready to head north to Maine this summer. It will be our 25th transit along the coast, counting from our first in 1972. We are excited about returning to some favorite spots and exploring new places. We are off to China later this month, but our boat is home and home is always delightful day-hops. I like the idea of chartering in some long distant places, but I'm too much of a "pansy" to take my liveaboard home and all I possess for months to get there. Maybe this is the answer that the OP was seeking. It just might be that those of us in the USA want more for less!


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

This discussion is too much like many on SN and elsewhere. Someone makes an observation and then it becomes a snorefest of those supporting the observation and those saying it is nonsense. It is not a zero sum game. Both sides can be right, especially this, like many, gets down to personal opinions and these are not right and wrong. I can be right and so can you. Personally the ICW would bore me to tears pretty quickly, based on my limited exposure to it. It does not mean there is anything wrong with those who enjoy it. Different courses for different horses. Sheesh, get a life folks.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

K- did you do the med? what where your impressions? Little I've read suggest eastern med is worth it. Rest not so much. 
Agree ICW is for trawlers not sailboats. Even getting to C+D canal bored me to tears. Had to run the engine the whole way. Different folks-different strokes. Could be fun while cooking on the barbacue and eating al fresco sitting in the sun but I'd be too stressed about running aground to relax.


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## Nostrodamus (Mar 21, 2013)

outbound said:


> K- did you do the med? what where your impressions? Little I've read suggest eastern med is worth it. Rest not so much.
> Agree ICW is for trawlers not sailboats. Even getting to C+D canal bored me to tears. Had to run the engine the whole way. Different folks-different strokes. Could be fun while cooking on the barbacue and eating al fresco sitting in the sun but I'd be too stressed about running aground to relax.


Outbound...we are in the med at the moment.
If you want an Ideas of what is around have a look at our blog on

Cygnus III | Sailing around the world slowly

If I can answer any questions please just ask.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

outbound said:


> K- did you do the med? what where your impressions? Little I've read suggest eastern med is worth it. Rest not so much.
> Agree ICW is for trawlers not sailboats. Even getting to C+D canal bored me to tears. Had to run the engine the whole way. Different folks-different strokes. Could be fun while cooking on the barbacue and eating al fresco sitting in the sun but I'd be too stressed about running aground to relax.


Europe and Antarctica are the ones on the list not checked off. Thought about Antarctica for about 20 minutes once. Europe is a possibility but if we go it will be to northern Europe only. The Med is not very attractive to me based on what several European cruisers told us. We heard the same comment several times in different places, "Why do you think we are here (Caribbean, South Pacific)?" Again, everyone to their own thing.


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

If this is such a snorefest, this discussion, and participants have no lives, why have you become a poster in this thread?

It's still winter for some of us, there's less to do.


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## Dave_E (Aug 7, 2013)

For me, the answer is: my job, boat is too small, wife that doesn't want to. But we can cruise the PNW all the way to Alaska via Canadian inland waters. Cool.


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## Nostrodamus (Mar 21, 2013)

killarney_sailor said:


> The Med is not very attractive to me based on what several European cruisers told us. We heard the same comment several times in different places, "Why do you think we are here (Caribbean, South Pacific)?" Again, everyone to their own thing.


Interesting Killarney. What did they say to put you off?
Our Canadian friends here in the Med love it as does an American boat here.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

Many cruisers spend time in Turkey to avoid the hassles. Tour by car, van and bike to see the sights of Europe. Then when they are done make a quick exit and on to the Caribe. 
I think we will buy a canal boat and see Europe a different way.


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## rgscpat (Aug 1, 2010)

The USA is interesting in that about half of its states have coastline and half don't; similarly, about a third of its fifty largest cities are coastal, with a few more on or near the Great Lakes and a slight majority non-coastal. 

I'm guessing that Europe would have a somewhat higher percentage of near-coastal cities, and would hazard a guess that the average European lives perhaps half as far from the sea as the average US resident... though that obviously depends upon which sort of European one might be. By this measure, Czechs, Swiss, or Austrians would be more like Americans than Britons, Portugese, or Greeks. 

Denver is perhaps our fifty-largest-city champion for being solidly far from the coast, at about 800 miles. Even European Russia is probably pretty much within that distance of the Baltic or Black seas or the Arctic coast.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

Don't be dissin the ICW!

After all, the Chesapeake Bay, home to many Sailnetters, is part of the ICW.

Show some respect, you fancy Europeans, with your fancy accents, sauces and artwork...


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

Nostrodamus said:


> Interesting Killarney. What did they say to put you off?
> Our Canadian friends here in the Med love it as does an American boat here.


There seemed to be three themes that came up:
Cost, especially in the western Med where decent anchorages are in short supply. We typically heard that marina costs, even with Med mooring, are in the 75 euro range per night for a typical monohull. That most certainly is way beyond our budget.
Lousy sailing with not much wind interspersed with katabatic winds (with neat names) at 50 knots.
Crowding, especially in anchorages so night at anchor are not very restful.

When we were considering the Red Sea route, before the pirate risk became too great we were considering the the eastern Med rally which sounded pretty interesting. We have land-toured in Egypt and Jordan (loved Jordan btw) and thought it would be interesting to visit Israel and more of the Arab countries but political instability and things like Greece's attempts to solve their financial problems on the backs of cruisers make the Med generally unattractive.

People are obviously comfortable with what is familiar to them, whether we are talking the Med or the ICW. If they are happy, that is just fine, but if you are one of those prepared to travel long distances for cruising the dynamics of decision-making are quite different. It was interesting for us, because when both the Cape route and Red Sea were viable choices I could make a strong case for either choice. When the pirates won out in the northwestern Indian Ocean my life became simpler.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Riding the length of the ICW would be boring, but it's not what the East Coast is all about. It just happen to be in addition to it.


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> Riding the length of the ICW would be boring, but it's not what the East Coast is all about. It just happen to be in addition to it.


Au contrair. To me a stretch of ICW that I have been on a lot of times can get boring, but not a stretch I am seeing for the first time.


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## Nostrodamus (Mar 21, 2013)

killarney_sailor said:


> There seemed to be three themes that came up:
> Cost, especially in the western Med where decent anchorages are in short supply. We typically heard that marina costs, even with Med mooring, are in the 75 euro range per night for a typical monohull. That most certainly is way beyond our budget.
> Lousy sailing with not much wind interspersed with katabatic winds (with neat names) at 50 knots.
> Crowding, especially in anchorages so night at anchor are not very restful.


We came from our winter berth at Gibraltar to Sicily covering about 3,000 miles.
We went in about 4 marinas because we were meeting people. The rest of the time was at anchor.
We never had problems getting in any anchorage and even managed to sail about 60 to 70% of the time. It was our cheapest year yet.
Marina here is 1270 euros for 7 months for a 45ft boat.
Hope that help but details of the places we visited are on or blog.
Cygnus III | Sailing around the world slowly


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

Minnewaska said:


> Riding the length of the ICW would be boring, but it's not what the East Coast is all about. It just happen to be in addition to it.





Group9 said:


> Au contrair. To me a stretch of ICW that I have been on a lot of times can get boring, but not a stretch I am seeing for the first time.


I'm not a big fan of the ICW. For me an offshore passage is much more fun. I truly love being offshore. Janet thinks I'm nuts. She's quite a good passage-maker but doesn't find it fun. I do everything I can think of to support her offshore.

Janet likes the ICW. She likes the sights and sounds and smells, stopping each night to make dinner and talk about the day, new experiences even on stretches we've been on before. She likes the ground fog in the morning and the birds waking with the sun. She likes the stops in Coinjock, Beaufort NC, Charleston, St Augustine and little places in between. On the ICW she stands her share of watches and more while I cook, play with the radio, write, and nap. I do the arithmetic for setting boat speed to make the next bridge.

Different horses for different courses.

_edited addition_: Janet also likes the part of our days on the ICW where I bring her coffee in bed, get the anchor up, and have us back on(ish) the magenta line before she wanders up to drive the boat most of the rest of the day.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

One thing this thread has got me thinking is to reduce our bucket list Atlantic gyre cruise. I think I'll skip the Med, if we ever get to it. It will probably make more sense anyway. Getting all the seasons to work was a head scratcher anyway. I think I will start a thread to figure out the best way to make a voyage like the gyre.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

SVA- your post reminds SN is a sailing forum. Unfortunately the ICW although it has it definite appeals does not allow for much SAILING. I know folks complain of lack of speed and exposure to weather but I'm reminded of what I tell my stink pot friends when they ask to race. 
I say ok but I pick the destination. 
"OK where?" 
"Azores". 
That usually shuts them up except one couple on a Nordhaven.
Can see going in and out as weather and draft dictate but I'm with you. Find less things to hit, inability to worry about concerns on land, fixed simple daily routine restorative. Yes you get more solid sleep with the ICW but are you truly away and at sea when you have wi fi almost daily.
Agree with Minnie- very interested in such a thread. Please get it going.


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## Nostrodamus (Mar 21, 2013)

Just saw this post on another forum about us Brits going to the US.
You think you have it bad coming to Europe because you have to show a passport.



> So... I'm now in Ft Lauderdale.. man getting in the US is like getting into a prison.. mug shot.. fingerprints etc.. only thing missing was the anal probe and free hose down...
> Finally found the boat after a minor panic.. currently at the 'Downtowner Saloon' listening to some cool live music and siping IPA... truth be told after today I'm guzzling it...
> Tomorrow is familiarize myself with a Lagoon 440 day then of to Publix for stores.. WM for a Spot GPS3.. then check the weather for when to leave.. got an invite to a music fest for the 21st plus but see what the forecast says..
> Love the States.. and the people I meet.. just hate the **** getting in..
> Think this may turn into another Boatman Delivery thread... see how it goes..


Just out of interest he has gone there to bring a boat back across the Atlantic.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

outbound said:


> .....Agree with Minnie- very interested in such a thread. Please get it going.


Here it is.....

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/general-discussion-sailing-related/126689-atlantic-gyre-cruise.html


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Nostrodamus said:


> Just saw this post on another forum about us Brits going to the US.
> You think you have it bad coming to Europe because you have to show a passport.
> 
> Just out of interest he has gone there to bring a boat back across the Atlantic.


Did someone say we have it bad coming to Europe because we have to show a passport?

I'm beginning to feel like you have an axe to grind against Americans. The subject to this thread itself was critical, let alone the digs on knowledge of geography and now a link to more criticism.

News to me that foreiners are fingerprinted and photographed, but I'm all for it. Happy to do so at your boarder as well. What's the problem?


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

SVAuspicious said:


> I'm not a big fan of the ICW. For me an offshore passage is much more fun. I truly love being offshore. Janet thinks I'm nuts. She's quite a good passage-maker but doesn't find it fun. I do everything I can think of to support her offshore.
> 
> Janet likes the ICW. She likes the sights and sounds and smells, stopping each night to make dinner and talk about the day, new experiences even on stretches we've been on before. She likes the ground fog in the morning and the birds waking with the sun. She likes the stops in Coinjock, Beaufort NC, Charleston, St Augustine and little places in between. On the ICW she stands her share of watches and more while I cook, play with the radio, write, and nap. I do the arithmetic for setting boat speed to make the next bridge.
> 
> Different horses for different courses.


I like doing both. In fact, I enjoy being on any body of water, whether it be sailing on the ocean, or kayaking up a mangrove creek. That's why I'm so boat poor. I'm equipped to do it all.


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## CaptainForce (Jan 1, 2006)

SVAuspicious said:


> .................. Janet likes the ICW. She likes the sights and sounds and smells, stopping each night to make dinner and talk about the day, new experiences even on stretches we've been on before. She likes the ground fog in the morning and the birds waking with the sun. She likes the stops in Coinjock, Beaufort NC, Charleston, St Augustine and little places in between. On the ICW she stands her share of watches and more while I cook, play with the radio, write, and nap. I do the arithmetic for setting boat speed to make the next bridge.
> 
> Different horses for different courses.
> 
> _edited addition_: Janet also likes the part of our days on the ICW where I bring her coffee in bed, get the anchor up, and have us back on(ish) the magenta line before she wanders up to drive the boat most of the rest of the day.


Wow! That's a wierd description,- strange in the way it exactly describes Nancie. Was Janet born in Portsmouth, VA and maybe separated from a twin?


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

CaptainForce said:


> Wow! That's a wierd description,- strange in the way it exactly describes Nancie. Was Janet born in Portsmouth, VA and maybe separated from a twin?


*grin* Nope - Avenel NJ.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Read the posts on the thread Minnie was kind enough to start and read Jimmy's book. It's very different sailing the trades to BVI then fighting and planning around mother nature doing the NA gyre from N.E.. Both east to west and west to east are much easier for Europeans. Going up the eastern seaboard with option of using the ICW in places or just jumping the gulfstream is much less frightening then the coasts of France + Portugal. in either direction. Going down the US coast is relatively easy requiring just a few 2-3d overnight jumps. Americans going to Europe get to choose between multi year cruises or likelihood of exposure to some really tough sailing. Still, on the bucket list more I understand about it need more experience and have other things I want to do first.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

I don't understand that one, I mean to be easier for the Europeans than to the Americans to cross the Atlantic. When Europeans go to the Caribbean they don't go to stay there but to make what is called "a volta do mar".






The way is the same on one sense or another, nobody goes against the winds and everybody turns around. There is a timing for doing the "volta".

The only problematic timing in Europe is to sail in November to the Canary Islands. In November or even in late October there are years, like this one, were the storms keep coming on the North Atlantic one after another, but that is not a problem since the sensible thing would be to sail to the Canary Islands in late September, or if it is a good year in October and cruise there waiting the right time to cross, in November. So no problem at all.

For coming to Europe, you sail to Bermuda first and then to Azores. The right time to leave Bermuda is middle of May, or even beginning of June.

Nothing difficult about that and remember that most Europeans that cross the Atlantic, except the few that go for a circumnavigation are just doing the "Volta", the same thing you would be doing, except you start there while the Europeans start in Europe.

If you do that you should arrive to Galicia or Portugal in middle of June and will have 3 or 4 months to cruise. That will be enough for cruising Galicia, Portugal, and the Ballearic Islands, maybe even Corsica or Sardinia. You will not have time for more because Mediterranean cruising destinations are more and more spaced then the ones on the Caraibbean, but you can always do it several times. Many that do the the ARC are not doing it for the first time.

Regards

Paulo


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Thanks Paulo- understand the concept. However, it remains easier to see much of the eastern seaboard on "our" side than cruise comparable latitudes on "your" side. The diagrams you referenced in Wiki show a vessel leaving and returning to Portugal. I've sailed to Bermuda multiple times. Only once was it a rough sail. Other times put them up and take them down when you get there". No tacking or even sail changes. Generally a reach there and back in early June. Above posters point out getting to northern Europe a horse of a different color. That's all I was trying to point out. From your side would go to BVIs. then bop across Caribbean. Then up our coast. Even from R.I./Mass go to Bermuda then down near you on the westerlies. not the easterlies.


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## capt vimes (Dec 2, 2013)

The one thing we europeans are often doing, is leaving US an canada aside and return from the caribbean... 
On the other hand do a lot of us have to go some way down to the canaries, or the full length through the med before we do the jump ...
Nobody is crossing the north atlantic from east to newfoundland, at least nobody with his mindset in place...


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## Coquina (Dec 27, 2012)

You must first assume that someone WANTS to be in Europe on a boat. *Sailing = tropical island paradise *is very firmly in the minds of many USA sailors. 
You then need to think the logistics through. We can get from Maine through much of the Caribbean without any open ocean passages longer than 2-3 days if we want to. Getting across the Atlantic Ocean TWICE is a very big deal compared to that. If I leave my slip in May I can be in the EU for summer and leave there in the fall for the Islands and back up the east coast to slide right back into my slip 12 months later. That is 2 months out of 12 in open ocean and NO time for the Med unless I pushed very hard. Or I can leave my slip in May and head north, be in Maine in the hottest part of summer, back south to the Islands in the fall, and back up the coast the next year. The second trip is much less daunting, less demanding of vessel and crew, cheaper, can be done much easier by a retired couple, and affords everything from a rocky New England coast to the low country of the Carolinas to tropical islands. For the adventerous they can do the Caribbean 1500 rally as part of this trip or do Norfolk-Bermuda-Carribean to get some offshore sailing in. I am totally not surprised the two-way commute across the Atlantic is the less chosen path.



PCP said:


> I don't understand that one, I mean to be easier for the Europeans than to the Americans to cross the Atlantic. When Europeans go to the Caribbean they don't go to stay there but to make what is called "a volta do mar".
> 
> Volta do mar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> ...


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

I've been to Europe three times. By the third time, I was bored and wanted to come home. 

I've been to the Caribbean over two dozen times. I've never been bored and I never wanted to come home.

Easy decision for me.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

"para gustos colores" is a saying down here

losely translated to for likes there are many colors

whatever floats your boat

I would lovefor example to go canal motoring through europe or down the danube or even england up the thames or whatever but that doesnt mean I think the tropics suck

thats what Im more used to

I would also and have always dreamed of going in and out of the tip of south america...in and out of chile and ushuaia and tierra del fuego but I know its hard, spectacular and full of currents and bead weather

but that doesnt mean I hate the cold...

I have also learned to love the desert and coral reef near desolate wind barren islands like in the red sea...

or rocky galapagos like mountanious islands....or white sand beaches...or or or or or or or

whatever floats yor boat is what counts...


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## goboatingnow (Oct 10, 2008)

I say it again, you don't see many US in the med, and actually you don't see many in the carribean either. The US is proportionally has a very small sailing population compared to many EU countries and NZ and oz. it's predominantly a power boat marketplace. 

Europeans have generations of connections to the sea and exploration. That's a factor too. 

Issues about vat Schengen are not in fact issues. Ask people who have done it , most is just Internet nonsense or pure misleading information that passes for facts 

Dave 




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

goboatingnow said:


> I say it again, you don't see many US in the med, and actually you don't see many in the carribean either. The US is proportionally has a very small sailing population compared to many EU countries and NZ and oz. it's predominantly a power boat marketplace.


I haven't checked passports, but in the BVI I don't think you could swing a cat without hitting a US citizen.

The are also located directly next to the USVI and Puerto Rico, where nearly everyone is from the US, as they are US territory. Since places like St. Martin are French and Dutch territories, it sort of stands to reason they would be predominantly European.

You are right about being a dominant powerboat market, however, there are many other facts about US recreational boat ownership that are relevant. Such as over 50% of our recreational watercraft don't have access to the East Coast. Also, over 90% of boats are under something like 26ft. This is dated but an interesting read. Anyone have a similar document for Europe?

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...=ez6O6yqsQofaCBx4Tp-9hw&bvm=bv.62788935,d.dmQ



> Europeans have generations of connections to the sea and exploration. That's a factor too.


I suppose so, however, our founders actually arrived on sailboats from Europe. Other than longevity, I'm not sure this really distinguishes the two populations.



> Issues about vat Schengen are not in fact issues. Ask people who have done it , most is just Internet nonsense or pure misleading information that passes for facts


Could you elaborate? The time limits of Schengen are quite real. Are you referring specifically to VAT?

This is a very complicated issue for us, which I did not include in my Atlantic Gyre thread. My wife is a British Citizen, although, not an EU resident. As an American, I can enter the Shengen countries for the limited 90 days and not owe any VAT, unless the boat stays more than 18 months. However, EU residents incur VAT when skippering a non-EU registered boat after 1 month, so I read.

I think I could actually apply for and receive a marriage visa and have unlimited time in the EU. I even sometimes consider that I could apply for my own British citizenship, not sure about that, nor do I really like the idea. but then I get concerned about VAT after the 1 month. As best I can tell, the VAT is triggered by residence, not just citizenship, but that just has to be controversial. How many EU residents would want to try to put down an address in another country to avoid VAT. It can't be that simple and, therefore, one would think we could get caught up in being one of the few legit ones.


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## capt vimes (Dec 2, 2013)

Minnewaska said:


> ...The are also located directly next to the USVI and Puerto Rico, where nearly everyone is from the US, as they are US territory. Since places like St. Martin are French and Dutch territories, it sort of stands to reason they would be predominantly European.


although the french and dutch islands are EU and shengen area, we european are only entitled to stay in those places for a maximum of 90 days... there are a lot of special regulations in place in those countries.
BVI, bermuda is something completely different now, since it is british overseas territory and has nothing to do with EU...
there the same rules apply to europeans than to the USAns and canadians...



> This is a very complicated issue for us, which I did not include in my Atlantic Gyre thread. My wife is a British Citizen, although, not an EU resident. As an American, I can enter the Shengen countries for the limited 90 days and not owe any VAT, unless the boat stays more than 18 months. However, EU residents incur VAT when skippering a non-EU registered boat after 1 month, so I read.


correct - EU residents have to pay import tax/VAT at the point of entry actually according to the cost of the boat or the value will be evaluated in case of a used boat i.e. ...
that is also a reason why many boats bought overboards are checked in on either azores or malta... those two countries have a pretty low VAT (which is at the moment not consolidated through out the EU)
this only applies to EU residents which have there boats registered in a non EU country...
edit:
this also goes for boats under EU flag but bought abroads because once you have paid VAT in one EU country, it is legit and no further taxes have to be paid...
all other residents have the mentioned 18 months of tax exemption...

the other option, which is quite commonly used by EUans, is to register the boat under a company situated in a country with very low or no tax... 
even EU production boats are registered in the BVIs for instance although they might seldom leave the EU, but the taxes are graciously avoided... 
edit:
nevertheless - it is then regarded as a foreign boat with all the hazel you have as well, i.e. only 18 months exemption...


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## goboatingnow (Oct 10, 2008)

capt vimes said:


> although the french and dutch islands are EU and shengen area, we european are only entitled to stay in those places for a maximum of 90 days... there are a lot of special regulations in place in those countries.
> BVI, bermuda is something completely different now, since it is british overseas territory and has nothing to do with EU...
> there the same rules apply to europeans than to the USAns and canadians...
> 
> ...


You see its " well intentioned" posts like this that complicate the situation and mislead.

The vat rules are extremely simple. I use the terms below very carefully. If the " beneficial owner " is a "EU tax resident ". Then vat is due upon import immediately irrespective of the flag of the boat ,

Note that technically vat on " means of transport " is due in the country of " destination" not the first EU country. The country of destination is regarded as the country where the vessel will be habitually kept.

Wrapping up the boat in a company is not a reliable protection that's why the term " beneficial owner" is on the legislation.

So once the owner ( and only the owner ) is not EU tax resident , irrespective of their citizenship , then you can avail of 18 months vat excemption ( extendable to 24) be period can be reset by going outside the " customs union of the EU " for a day or even an hour ( ie enough to show proof )

Hence for Americans vat is simply not an issue. Nor is it for EU citizens not resident on the EU.

For EU residents we just pay the vat. Everything else outside actual commercial use of the boat ( ie sIling schools etc) is tax evasion.

Note that vat inspections re very very rare and focused on certain EU country residents/flag ( UK ) Vat inspections only take place if something else in the documentation stands out. On non EU boats other them violating the 18 month rules NOONE is CHECKING.

Schengen is also not as much an issue as protrayed if you arrive and leave by yacht , no one will actually track your 90 days across countries ( nor can they do it electronically because of data protection issues ) ) they will only care you haven't overstayed the 90 in their country.

Compared to the huge hassle we foreigners have in the US, cruising in Europe is a doodle. We " get " sailors


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

capt vimes said:


> although the french and dutch islands are EU and shengen area, we european are only entitled to stay in those places for a maximum of 90 days... there are a lot of special regulations in place in those countries....


So you say as a citizen of a Schengen country you cannot move to another one, or at least not to all parts of it? I thought that the free movement of citizens was one of THE milestones of the Schengen agreement? Isn't this what all the brouhaha about the recent Swiss vote which will limit access from other Schengen countries is about?


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## sck5 (Aug 20, 2007)

When my wife and I slowly sailed down the chain from Tortola to the Grenadines we noticed that the proportion of US boats went down steadily as we went further south. The VI's were very heavily American but that changed as soon as we hopped over to Anguilla and St. Maarten. By the time we got to the Grenadines there were more Canadians than US boats and most foreign boats were European with quite a few Ozzies. We got the impression that there were a combination of factors - US boats seemed to avoid anywhere that didnt speak their language - US boats were more afraid of security issues than others (though St. Maarten seemed to be the most thieving island of them all to us, you might get a different impression on line or from the travel warnings).

But we thought it was great! The best anchorage in our opinion was one where everybody came from somewhere different - lots of fun people to talk to with different stories, experiences, etc. We found that all the boat people of whatever nationality were easy to befriend and apt to speak pretty good English also.


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## capt vimes (Dec 2, 2013)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> So you say as a citizen of a Schengen country you cannot move to another one, or at least not to all parts of it? I thought that the free movement of citizens was one of THE milestones of the Schengen agreement? Isn't this what all the brouhaha about the recent Swiss vote which will limit access from other Schengen countries is about?


special regulations...




maximum stay for ALL countries on the visa-free list is 3 month! and that includes the EU as well...
for the french islands it is similar...
correction:
for the french oversees territories it is different:
"EU, EEA, Swiss, Andorran, Monégasque and San Marinese citizens can enter and reside for an unlimited period without a visa in the five French overseas departments and the overseas collectivity of Saint-Martin."


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

capt vimes said:


> special regulations...


Amazing what you guys are putting up with.

I knew that citizens of the BVI have the right to move to the UK (and then, if they wish, to anywhere in the EU) while this is by no means the case the other way round. I would be hopping mad if someone had the right to live and work in my country but the inverse would not apply.

This seemed patently unfair to me; I would consider anything but full reciprocity unacceptable. For instance, residents of the US Virgin Islands can move to any part of the USA, and any US citizen can move to the USVI. This is how it should be, not giving one population privileges that others don't have.

But maybe this is again the US-centric me speaking...


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## capt vimes (Dec 2, 2013)

the problem with the british and dutch territories lies in their "homestates" being monarchies...
so while those territories belong somehow to the crown, they are not the same states. and i was incorrect before - those states are not part of shengen or the EU, but the french territories are.
just look at the isle of man and the british channel islands (gournsey and jersey) - they are british but not part of the UK which is the EU member state but not part of the schengen area and also not part of the EU currency zone... the british will never dump their pounds sterling. 
for the dutch now - all of the citizens from oversee territories can migrate to netherlands and enjoy all rights associated with it... but it is nevertheless an official immigration on which they will receive "the dutch" nationality...
the other way round it does not work - dutch nationals are allowed for a 6 months stay unless they have some relation to one of those countries - they themselves or one of their ancestors came from there - which entitles them to reside permanently there still holding their dutch passport (why should they give that away)...

all this becomes very obscure if you look at the split island of saint martin, sint maarten - the northern part is an overseas région and département of France and is therefore in the European Union, while the southern part of that island is a constituent country of the Kingdom of the Netherlands but not a part of "the Netherlands" which is also only a constituent country of the Kingdom of the Netherlands...
funny - huh...


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## capt vimes (Dec 2, 2013)

edit:
it is even more complicated with UK, the crown and their dependencies...
"The United Kingdom has sovereignty over seventeen territories which do not form part of the United Kingdom itself: fourteen British Overseas Territories and three Crown Dependencies."
so while the channel islands are part of "the crown" the other territories are sovereign of the UK but not part of it...


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> So you say as a citizen of a Schengen country you cannot move to another one, or at least not to all parts of it? I thought that the free movement of citizens was one of THE milestones of the Schengen agreement? Isn't this what all the brouhaha about the recent Swiss vote which will limit access from other Schengen countries is about?


Swiss is not Schengen neither it belongs to the the EC. They could have done legally what they have done; A EC country couldn't since they are bound by treaties. The brouhaha regards a moral perspective. Not all that you can do is right or morally acceptable, at least for some. The result of the referendum that allowed that were very close to 50/50.

Paulo


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

PCP said:


> Swiss is not Schengen neither it belongs to the the EC. They could have done legally what they have done; A EC country couldn't since they are bound by treaties. The brouhaha regards a moral perspective. Not all that you can do is right or morally acceptable, at least for some. The result of the referendum that allowed that were very close to 50/50.
> 
> Paulo


I believe that Switzerland is part of Schengen:

"Four non-members of the EU, but members of EFTA - Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway, and Switzerland - participate in the Schengen Area."

See


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## capt vimes (Dec 2, 2013)

Paulo - swiss is a shengen state as norway is... No matter if an EU state or not (not in that case), because shengen is another treaty...
And this is what caused the uproar!

Mast... Was faster...


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

capt vimes said:


> for the dutch now - all of the citizens from oversee territories can migrate to netherlands and enjoy all rights associated with it... but it is nevertheless an official immigration on which they will receive "the dutch" nationality...
> the other way round it does not work - dutch nationals are allowed for a 6 months stay unless they have some relation to one of those countries - they themselves or one of their ancestors came from there - which entitles them to reside permanently there still holding their dutch passport (why should they give that away)...


Yeah, that's what I mean: why do Europeans accept such rules? Don't you guys feel like you are second-class citizens in your own country?

[maybe this gets too close to politics and we should stop this discussion]


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## goboatingnow (Oct 10, 2008)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> So you say as a citizen of a Schengen country you cannot move to another one, or at least not to all parts of it? I thought that the free movement of citizens was one of THE milestones of the Schengen agreement? Isn't this what all the brouhaha about the recent Swiss vote which will limit access from other Schengen countries is about?


The EU islands are NOT part of Schengen, Schengen by definition is essentially around a continuous land border, which is why Ireland and the UK are not in it ( well the common travel area between the Uk and ireland complicated things for Schengen )

The Swiss have got themselves into a right muddle and the current threat of the EU to reinstate border controls has thrown them into a tissy. moral, dont mess with the big guy

dave


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## goboatingnow (Oct 10, 2008)

furthermore, Schengen is purely a immigration measure. part of a borderless internal Europe. It doesnt mean you gain any rights you didn't have before. the right to work and live and move countries is a EU citizen right , nothing to do with Schengen


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## goboatingnow (Oct 10, 2008)

> I knew that citizens of the BVI have the right to move to the UK (and then, if they wish, to anywhere in the EU)


no the 1981 Nationality act removed most of those rights from the BOTC territories. While they are granted Uk citizenship ( which was a concept brought in in the 1981 act) ( since the UK is a monarchy), the grant of such citizenship does not give the right to reside in the UK. This is true of most overseas territories.


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## goboatingnow (Oct 10, 2008)

> Yeah, that's what I mean: why do Europeans accept such rules? Don't you guys feel like you are second-class citizens in your own country?


its entirely proper to limit access to small islands. whereas the whole population of the dutch islands could be absorbed into the EU without a blink

Its not a question as you proposed, merely a practical situation


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

goboatingnow said:


> The EU islands are NOT part of Schengen, Schengen by definition is essentially around a continuous land border, which is why Ireland and the UK are not in it ( well the common travel area between the Uk and ireland complicated things for Schengen )
> 
> The Swiss have got themselves into a right muddle and the current threat of the EU to reinstate border controls has thrown them into a tissy. moral, dont mess with the big guy
> 
> dave


Ehm, Iceland is part of Schengen but surely has no land border with any Schengen country (nor with any non-Schengen country )

Nor does Greece. And Norway, Sweden and Finland have common land borders but not with any other Schengen country.

Nothing to do with 'continuous land borders.'


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

goboatingnow said:


> its entirely proper to limit access to small islands. whereas the whole population of the dutch islands could be absorbed into the EU without a blink
> 
> Its not a question as you proposed, merely a practical situation


I have heard this argument before.

Let's see. "The whole population of the USVI could be absorbed in the USA without a blink. But we cannot allow just any US citizen to move to the USVI: what would happen if all 300+ million mainlanders moved to the USVI?"

You know what, somehow that did not happen.


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

goboatingnow said:


> no the 1981 Nationality act removed most of those rights from the BOTC territories. While they are granted Uk citizenship ( which was a concept brought in in the 1981 act) ( since the UK is a monarchy), the grant of such citizenship does not give the right to reside in the UK. This is true of most overseas territories.


I am afraid you are not quite up to date:

"British Virgin Islanders are classed as British Overseas Territories citizens and since 2002 have had full British citizenship. Although the territory is not part of the European Union and not directly subject to EU law, its citizens are deemed to be citizens of the EU as well."






Any 'belonger' of the BVI has the right to move to any country of the EU at any time and live and work there.


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## capt vimes (Dec 2, 2013)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> Yeah, that's what I mean: why do Europeans accept such rules? Don't you guys feel like you are second-class citizens in your own country?
> 
> [maybe this gets too close to politics and we should stop this discussion]


there is not so much a "European" feeling, yet - at least not so widespread that it counts really...
it comes with time hopefully, but a couple of decades ago we fought one another brutally by all means, exactly what we did all the centuries and millennias before... 
and from those times comes the different legal constructions regarding states - which is now represented in visa, immigration and such... it is essentially not a "european" thing but a national, solely in those countries responsibility and is respected by the other...
pretty simple actually - don't you think? 

to someone from outside, i will always say that i am an european... to someone from europe, i will always be an austrian!


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## goboatingnow (Oct 10, 2008)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> Ehm, Iceland is part of Schengen but surely has no land border with any Schengen country (nor with any non-Schengen country )
> 
> Nor does Greece. And Norway, Sweden and Finland have common land borders but not with any other Schengen country.
> 
> Nothing to do with 'continuous land borders.'


What I alluded to was the primary purpose of the Schengen acquis, which was to ensure free passage across borders primarily land borders so as to give effect to a practical reality. Countries like Iceland with long affiliations with Scandinavia also joined. Ireland didn't join primarily because of its common travel area with the UK and it's land border with it. So individual countries has reasons to join or not join

Dave

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## goboatingnow (Oct 10, 2008)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> I am afraid you are not quite up to date:
> 
> "British Virgin Islanders are classed as British Overseas Territories citizens and since 2002 have had full British citizenship. Although the territory is not part of the European Union and not directly subject to EU law, its citizens are deemed to be citizens of the EU as well."
> 
> ...


You are mistaken.

" The British Overseas Territories Act 2002 also conferred British Citizenship upon BOTCs (other than those solely connected with the Sovereign Base Areas of Cyprus) which does provide for a right of abode in the United Kingdom. This conferral is in addition to their BOTC and was not reciprocal in nature, in that British Citizens did not receive any rights to reside in the Overseas Territories without permission. The act also changed the reference of British Dependent Territories to British Overseas Territories. This act was enacted 5 years after the United Kingdom relinquished sovereignty over its most populous dependent territory, Hong Kong, to the People's Republic of China.
"

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

goboatingnow said:


> You are mistaken.
> 
> " The British Overseas Territories Act 2002 also conferred British Citizenship upon BOTCs (other than those solely connected with the Sovereign Base Areas of Cyprus) which does provide for a right of abode in the United Kingdom. This conferral is in addition to their BOTC and was not reciprocal in nature, in that British Citizens did not receive any rights to reside in the Overseas Territories without permission. The act also changed the reference of British Dependent Territories to British Overseas Territories. This act was enacted 5 years after the United Kingdom relinquished sovereignty over its most populous dependent territory, Hong Kong, to the People's Republic of China.
> "
> ...


Wait! Why am I mistaken? The text you quote, wherever it comes from, says "does provide for a right of abode in the United Kingdom." Isn't that what I said?


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

capt vimes said:


> there is not so much a "European" feeling, yet - at least not so widespread that it counts really...
> it comes with time hopefully, but a couple of decades ago we fought one another brutally by all means, exactly what we did all the centuries and millennias before...
> and from those times comes the different legal constructions regarding states - which is now represented in visa, immigration and such... it is essentially not a "european" thing but a national, solely in those countries responsibility and is respected by the other...
> pretty simple actually - don't you think?
> ...


Well, the current state is certainly an improvement about the "fighting each other brutally" situation


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

goboatingnow said:


> The EU islands are NOT part of Schengen........


I haven't researched government sites, but Noonsite says the Azores are part of Portugal and the Canaries part of Spain and both islands are subject to Shengen immigration rules.

http://www.noonsite.com/Countries/CanaryIslands?rc=Formalities#Immigration

http://www.noonsite.com/Countries/Azores?rc=Formalities#Immigration

At the least, we've establish the well known fact...... facts are hard to distinguish on this topic. Very confusing.


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## capt vimes (Dec 2, 2013)

Minnewaska said:


> I haven't researched government sites, but Noonsite says the Azores are part of Portugal and the Canaries part of Spain and both islands are subject to Shengen immigration rules.


correct - if you cross via the azores, the 90 days start ticking the time you clear in there...
but as goboatingnow pointed out - it is not that much looked after... every state just makes sure, that you do not stay longer in their country but gives a damn about shengen... 


> At the least, we've establish the well known fact...... facts are hard to distinguish on this topic. Very confusing.


why should that be confusing? 








from:


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## Nostrodamus (Mar 21, 2013)

Some one else mentioned that if you were sailing between countries and out of territorial waters and record the fact in your log book can this be taken off the time you are allowed to stay?
I don't know


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Nostrodamus said:


> Some one else mentioned that if you were sailing between countries and out of territorial waters and record the fact in your log book can this be taken off the time you are allowed to stay?
> I don't know


Generally, time restrictions are based on when you check in and out of customs.

I've heard of some countries that even require you prove you have a way out before the term expires, or they won't let you in.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"if you were sailing between countries and out of territorial waters and record the fact in your log book"
Could be a bad idea, since you would have just documented leaving one country without clearing out, and entering the other without clearing in.
If you have properly cleared out and in, then of course there's no further/extra need to log what is already documented.


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