# J24 Bilge Cracks



## mnky (Nov 11, 2011)

Just wondering if anyone has seen cracks like these in J24s. They are only in this part of the bilge- the rest is solid. It's a 1983 boat, bilge was full of water and has been sitting on a trailer for months, however no sign of water leaking out around keel.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

Isn't that a lifting point for the boat?

I seem to recall some of the earlier J/24s had vermiculite in the bilge. Is that fiberglass or some other material?

You might try this same post over on Sailing Anarchy.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Its been said that the perfect racing machine disintegrates as it crosses the finish line.
J24 make a case for this bit of wisdom. 

They are extremely lightly built with a fully balsa cored hull that is one of the most prone to absorb moisture. When the core is saturated and then rots, the hull structure gets significantly weaker. Most of these boats are crane launched using an eye near the bilge sump. As the boat likely weighs much more (saturated balsa)than its design weight, the stress around the eye and bilge sump starts to pull things apart. A 28 year old J24 is likely not a wise investment.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

I would like to see the full keel sump as it does not look like the newer post 1980 sump



















My 1981 hull is just fine and hull 34 is at the worlds right now

What's the hull # as 2733 and 2930 were 1981 hulls so it should be up in the 3500 to 4000 range

the vermiculite was stopped early 1980 when they went with the better hatches

The keel sump is solid glass with no core and goes about 5 to 6 inches below the hull were the keel bolts on


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

tommays said:


> My 1981 hull is just fine and hull 34 is at the worlds right now
> 
> What's the hull # as 2733 and 2930 were 1981 hulls so it should be up in the 3500 to 4000 range
> 
> ...


Yes , the keel sump is solid glass but extends out only about 6" then its balsa all the way. When the balsa is dry, the laminate is immensley strong but when it rots, the laminate is so thin that the hull becomes much weaker and all the load is transferred to the next link in the chain i.e. the keel sump, hence the fractures.


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## mnky (Nov 11, 2011)

I'll get pics of the rest of the sump this weekend. It looks like original un-molested fiberglass to me. With the very limited experience I have I would guess some sort of trauma.


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## mnky (Nov 11, 2011)

I'm guessing 34 is sans-vermiculite.


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## rgscpat (Aug 1, 2010)

By the way, for peace of mind, can the cockpit hatches close securely?


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## mnky (Nov 11, 2011)

Yes to the hatches. They both have lockable hasps. Here's a related question; given a boat with a sound hull and deck in good condition which still has vermiculite in the bilge that also appears to be sound, is there any reason not to continue sailing it as is? (speaking from someone who would not hesitate to buy the kit and remove the vermiculite themself)


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

If it has vermiculite which contains asbestos for and extra bit of fun it is NOT a 1983 hull as you can reach under the liner in that area on a post vermiculite hull 


To my eye it looks like a vermiculite sump the way the material is moulded aroung the lift strap


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

Hull 33 and Hull 2998 which is killing at the worlds RIGHT now


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## mnky (Nov 11, 2011)

First pics were from the 83. This is from the 79. It looks like concrete- jabbed it with a phillips and it felt like concrete too.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

You are much better off with the V2 J24 (post 1980)as between the old sump which has ZERO bilge water capacity and the old style deck and cabin top hatch which leak badly to fill the non existent bilge


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

mnky, you might want to call j/boats. They're exceptional at customer service and they will probably tell you to email the pics to them and reply with specifics.


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

Google: "J24 sailboat sinking" just for fun.
Maker sure the companion way hatch and cockpit lockers can be closed tight.


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## papasfritas (Dec 12, 2011)

MNKY what did you end up doing? I just got a 79 and my sump looks exactly the same. When I empty out the water it just slowly fills back up. I assume there is water in the cracks of the material. Is this a form of vermiculite? I'd like to remove it if it will become a problem. Does the hard material extend around the cabin sole or is it just around the keel bolts?


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## egard1029 (Mar 26, 2004)

The pics are almost definitely from the '79 - (I still own & race an early 79 hull that I bought new...). I believe they stopped using the vermiculite between hull #1650 and #1900. Replacing the vermiculite is not an onerous task if you're reasonably handy. Even I was able to do it. The most important thing is to glass in the replacement floor beams that Waterline can probably supply. Once done, the boat will be drier, and the all-up weight more consistent. The water seepage referred to is simply moisture slowly draining from the vermiculite that is under the fiberglass cabin sole. Description of the whole repair can be found on the class website, which is a treasure trove of info all things J24: www.j24class.org, and wander around.

Folks seem to love bashing the J24. Jealous of success?? No boat is perfect, and we've got a class with very competitive racing, and great people. Disregard the comments about "lightly built". It's a race boat, not a blue water cruiser. Properly maintained, they are still solid and competitive after 30 years. And a great source of fun.


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## papasfritas (Dec 12, 2011)

Thanks. I understand the job and the reasons for fixing. 

When you did you job did you cut out the cabin sole? Or did you only have to replace the verm in the sump? I assume cutting open the deck to check would be worth the effort anyways. I got this boat for $900 a few weeks ago, its in really pretty nice shape. Solid deck and hull, no wet spots, but the verm job has to be done it seems. I called waterline left a few messages about getting the kit sans the teak&holly FB. I assume to just get marine plywood for the new floor. If you wouldn't mind:

How far back does the verm go on the 79?

If its still rock hard all around with just some cracks should I still replace?

Do you have pictures of your sump on the 79 I can see for reference? stringers, sump, lip for deck sole.

Thanks for your reply.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

" Disregard the comments about "lightly built". "
I'd vehemently disagree with that. Years ago I called J/Boats with a technical question and had the luck to actually get one of the J. Brothers on the phone. Yes, they value customer input and satisfaction enough so that "THE" man would pick up the phone to talk to customers.
And he was the one who said, right up front, that they are lightly built. After all, a racing boat has to be fast and in order to be fast you have to be light! This is a GOOD THING not a criticism of the boat. If you want a boat to beat on 24x7x365, get a Pearson26, it is much harder to wear out the boat. Take a J/24 and jump from the dock into the cockpit every day--and you'll spider crack the gelcoat because the boat is going to flex under it every time you land. And that's not a defect, that's just called keeping the boat light.
You wouldn't take an E-type Jag bushwhacking across the Rockies, that doesn't mean it isn't adequately built--for what it was intended for. Same same with a J/24, perfectly adequate boat, and yes, LIGHTLY BUILT on purpose.


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## egard1029 (Mar 26, 2004)

papas:
Welcome to the class!!!

The verm goes at least as far aft as the leading edge of the cooler. And you want to take all of it out at least that far, because it will all be wanting to absorb water with each little crack. Should you ever want to (god forbid) sell it, or (better) race it seriously, you'll want to get 90% of the vermiculite out. Otherwise it's still there to absorb water, which equals weight. Even if you think it's rock-hard, do the job once and do it right. We left about a one inch lip on the floor molding to support the new sole. The teak and holly sole is pretty, but marine ply would also be ok, as long as you coat both sides and edges w/ epoxy. 

Two caveats:
a) Really important to obtain and properly glass in the new f/glass floors, for lateral stiffness and proper keel support. The old verm helped fill that function.
b) You will want to get the boat measured/reweighed by a class measurer after done. It helps the value of the boat, in addition to being class legal. Even if you have to add corrector weights, it's worth it. Class website can help you locate a measurer near you.

I'd be happy to take pictures, but the boat is all wrapped up for the winter. I suspect that there may pics on the class website, don't know.

Hello:: I'm not sure if you're vehemently agreeing w/ me or vehemently disagreeing. Whatever. The boats are appropriately built for a mid/late 70's race boat given the state of boat building at that time, for better or worse. Their strengths and weaknesses are very well known and documented. I talked with Rod 30 years ago, and I've talked to Rod and Jeff within the last 2 years, as well as the Waterline (current builders) people. The boats are what they are, and we have a lot of fun with them. And yes, I've sailed old Pearson 26's. All old boats have issues....


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## papasfritas (Dec 12, 2011)

Thanks for the replies egard. I am planning on starting this project some time soon. The issue is with it being cold here in MD. I know at certain temps the epoxy turns to viscus and doesn't harden correctly. 

Does any one have any images of the job being done? I've seen just about all there is to see on the internet in relation to this job. None of the ones people have images of had soles and verm that looks like mine to start. Besides the image above from MNKY. 

Also when I cut the sole out is a circular saw the best tool? I wonder if a good dremmel would work to make a better looking cut?


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

You guys really should do a search on lost keels on j-boats over at sailinganarchy. There have been several incidents over the past few years. Here are a couple of the threads:

J80 Loses Keel - Sailing Anarchy Forums

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=73728&st=0

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=68245&st=0

And then here's one I started here a while back - it's got some great stuff:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/racing/52993-whats-up-j80-keels.html


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

2 J80s out of a production run of over 1000

NO J24s that i have ever heard of

There have been issues with 105s and 109s BUT none fell off just repiars and are 1970 C&C 35 has required plenty of glass work to keep the keel ON

_There are sure a heck far more Catalinas in many different sizes with rotten Plywood keel sumps amd keel issues _


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

tommays said:


> 2 J80s out of a production run of over 1000
> 
> NO J24s that i have ever heard of
> 
> ...


I'm not passing judgement - I'm just pointing out that there have been quite a few stories about J-Boats and keel issues over the past couple of years. This seems to be another one.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

SO whats the issue ? that a 1979 J24 hull needs a repiar kit it was suppose to have gotten 20 years ago and the keel is still THERE ?


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

tommays said:


> SO whats the issue ? that a 1979 J24 hull needs a repiar kit it was suppose to have gotten 20 years ago and the keel is still THERE ?


I guess so.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

papas-
A circular saw will probably give you a straighter cut, which may look better than a wobbly thin slice. There are "router" and "tile grouting" heads for the Dremels, using one of those as a guide would probably let you get a nice straight cut with it.
Check the spec for the specific epoxy you plan to use, IIRC 45F is about the lowest any of them go but most will take forever to set way before it gets that cold. A heat lamp might get you past that.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

smackdaddy, J's are mainly racing boats and racing boats go rockhopping all the time. UNLESS a boat has only had one owner since it was splashed, you can't ever be sure that someone hasn't grounded it and damaged the keel attachment.

So losing a keel? When you don't know if it ever was abused? Come on now, that's like asking a six year old "Who punched you out?" when they lose a kiddie tooth. Simply uncalled-for.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

hellosailor said:


> smackdaddy, J's are mainly racing boats and racing boats go rockhopping all the time. UNLESS a boat has only had one owner since it was splashed, you can't ever be sure that someone hasn't grounded it and damaged the keel attachment.
> 
> So losing a keel? When you don't know if it ever was abused? Come on now, that's like asking a six year old "Who punched you out?" when they lose a kiddie tooth. Simply uncalled-for.


I promise that I've never punched a six year old - at least not hard enough to knock out his tooth. I have no ****zu in the J-Boat hunt...I'm just posting the stories I've come across about keel problems with J-Boats.

Here's a post from Tom from that SN thread I linked to above - he says it better that I can:



tommays said:


> J105
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

smack, his bottom line appears to be: "catastrophic fiberglass failure due to rapid athwart ship pressure from two high speed jibes that accidently occurred in heavy wind... THIS LOSS WAS NOT DUE TO NEGLECT OR LONG TERM DELAMINATION."

With three surveyors each giving a different and firm opinion, you might as well ask Magic8Ball what happened. One boat doesn't indicate a problem, could be someone whacked the keel, could be a material defect (bad epoxy) that took 30 years to show up. Unlikely to be a design defect since "the fleet" hasn't had dozens of them.

WRT the J/24s "in the past" and "vermiculite" make it sound like old history. Was that the first design, subsequently modified? Or only affecting boats that came out of one plant? Since the construction was licensed out to MANY makers around the globe. I don't see a smoking gun there. OTOH "Captain Crunch" is/was a real J/24 and that seems perfectly typical of the usual J/24 owner's sailing style. The boats are sailed aggressively.

Maybe you've heard the saying about racing boats? If nothing breaks, the boat was built too heavy, _too slow._

Fine line between building it well enough to last the race, and building it too frail to win. Heck, even Indy car engines used to be designed to blow up after 700 miles. 500 for the race, 100 for breakin, 100 as a safety margin. 700 miles, versus 1/4 million for a regular engine.


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## j24j (Apr 9, 2011)

*Yes - and it's no big deal*



mnky said:


> Just wondering if anyone has seen cracks like these in J24s. They are only in this part of the bilge- the rest is solid. It's a 1983 boat, bilge was full of water and has been sitting on a trailer for months, however no sign of water leaking out around keel.


I have 2391 and mine has this too - in fact it looks like you took a picture of my keel. Virtually every boat in my local fleet has these cracks and they're newer than mine. My keel stays dry while it's in the water (fresh water, all sailing season - not dry sailed).

I had a certified marine surveyor look at my boat before I bought it and it was pretty much a waste of money. He freaked out about the cracks because they were cracks, but had no other points of reference or information that factually established why they would be a bad thing. Then I talked to the owners in my fleet.

The consensus view of the owners in my area is that you have you have to ask yourself three questions. 1) Are you anal retentive? 2) do you have money to burn? 3) Do you have too much time on your hands? If the answer is yes to all three, that you should do something about it. The only caveat is if you had massive cracking around the keel/sump mate point and were taking on water. But your pictures show it's dry.

You can buy the kit for this from WaterLine or do it yourself. The view of a boat yard who has done many of these overhauls regards this as a structural repair. So if you do decide to do it and you know you will never sell the boat then doing it yourself might make sense. If you're going to sell it someday, the few bucks more for the kit also buys you paper work that says you didn't compromise integrity. Might make it easier to sell.

The repair looks really cool after it's done. If someone offered to do it to my boat for free I'd take them up on it. The rest of us have decided to go sailing instead.

Finally, I have to laugh about the J24 being a lightweight boat. I'd ask if you'd ever seen one? Compared to a bunker oil barge, yes its a light boat. But even in the 80's it was a beefy boat - it's almost 1,000lbs heavier than a Moore 24. And the Martin 242 is 600 lbs lighter. Since my boat is named after a woman, she'll take the complement about being sevlte.


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## j24j (Apr 9, 2011)

Replying to one's last post may be a sin greater than high-jacking a thread - I apologize in advance.

I found that when I tried to torque my keel boats to spec, the not-vermiculite material in my sump wasn't able to be tightened. Her keel bolts were all finger tight - yikes! The material that was in my keel was a sand/epoxy mixture that has zero structural strength. Tightening them just made the sump mush.

The junk in my sump stuff smelled like epoxy resin if cut, and when hit with a chisel, chipped out like rock candy. After all of it was out the total weighed maybe 10 lbs max. It also floats in water. I found a number of tie wraps in remarkably good condition and what I think was a chunk of wood that had thoroughly rotted in the sump. The upside is that the keel bolts were in bright condition - which I thought was remarkable.

I'm just about done rebuilding the sump with the waterline systems kit, and it will be extremely strong. My guess right now is that it will weigh the same. The work itself wasn't too bad since the junk chipped right out with a wood chisel and a rubber mallet.

Bottom line for me was that my sump had lost its structural integrity. The other thing that I took care of was my cabin sole. In the heat of racing years ago the floor cracked out, undoubtedly due to being jumped on. Upon removal, I found the balsa core of it that was completely rotted. I did a great deal of other maintenance work this winter and found the rest of the boat to be surprisingly free of balsa rot overall with this profound exception. 

I have no idea if the rest of the fleet can tighten their keel bolts, but I know mine are going to be to spec.


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## GJJBJJ (Apr 8, 2021)

j24j said:


> Replying to one's last post may be a sin greater than high-jacking a thread - I apologize in advance.
> 
> I found that when I tried to torque my keel boats to spec, the not-vermiculite material in my sump wasn't able to be tightened. Her keel bolts were all finger tight - yikes! The material that was in my keel was a sand/epoxy mixture that has zero structural strength. Tightening them just made the sump mush.
> 
> ...


Im sure i am reviving an old thread but does anyone have PICTURES of the whole repair removing the cabin sole and the process. I still have Verm and my sole is cracking prolly from stepping on the deck to hard but thats a part of getting in and out fast sometimes. i have a crack in my cabin sole and it is starting to go soft there... can i remove the cabin sole and not effect the overall integrity or do i need to pull her out of the water to do this repair... the keel has minor cracks in the verm but is ROCK SOLID otherwise

Good Juju, Bad Juju


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