# Charter vs. Rent



## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

Why do you _charter_ a boat or a bus, but _rent_ a car or a house?


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## MacBlaze (Jan 18, 2016)

Wild-assed guess?

I assume it has something to do with the fact that in olden days of yore you couldn't get a ship without a master.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I think a charter or charter party refers to the contract that is used to hire transportation for a specified period of time or a specified voyage.

Rent refers to the rendering of payment for a service or use of an item.

I think it would be reasonable to say. "I paid a $1000 per week rent to charter that Beneteau for a month.".


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## twoshoes (Aug 19, 2010)

I've rented and chartered sailboats before I owned one. When I got them by the hour, half-day (4 hours) or full-day (8 hours) they seemed to be called a rental. When it was multi-day with overnights involved they were called charters. Just my personal experience, nothing official implied.


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## Yamsailor (Jun 7, 2006)

Has to do with Maritime Law. When someone charters a boat, they take 100% legal liability for it. When you rent a house, you do not take 100% legal liability for it.



Minnesail said:


> Why do you _charter_ a boat or a bus, but _rent_ a car or a house?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Why is that Capt Ron?......._Nobody knows_.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

I've always used the term rent for a bareboat and charter for a crewed yacht. I suppose it's more about service rather than impermanent acquisition.


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

Yamsailor said:


> Has to do with Maritime Law. When someone charters a boat, they take 100% legal liability for it. When you rent a house, you do not take 100% legal liability for it.


I actually looked this up thinking that there may be some legal reason that just made it into the vernacular. But legally speaking I couldn't find a difference.

The degree of liability for an asset is part of the rental or charter contract and is not by operation of law. Though there are some standard industry contracts like a bareboat charter that by labeling a contract a state such adopt a number of industry standards. But they are not obligatory just custom.


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## Jammer Six (Apr 2, 2015)

Another example of why you _never_ use "legal" advice from the internet.


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## Yamsailor (Jun 7, 2006)

33 CFR Section 138. USCG Regulations.



Stumble said:


> I actually looked this up thinking that there may be some legal reason that just made it into the vernacular. But legally speaking I couldn't find a difference.
> 
> The degree of liability for an asset is part of the rental or charter contract and is not by operation of law. Though there are some standard industry contracts like a bareboat charter that by labeling a contract a state such adopt a number of industry standards. But they are not obligatory just custom.


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

Yamsailor said:


> 33 CFR Section 138. USCG Regulations.


And? Like I said I need the above post



Stumble said:


> Though there are some standard industry contracts like a bareboat charter (also known as a Demise charter...ed) that by labeling a contract as such adopt a number of industry standards. But they are not obligatory just custom.


You could also call I think a bareboat lease and it would have exactly the same effect in a court of law. At least so far as the research I did is concerned. Otherwise it would be trivial to shield liability just by calling a lease a charter or vise versa.


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## Jammer Six (Apr 2, 2015)

Statutes are only the beginning. One of the main problems with internet legal advice is the overwhelming majority of non-lawyers who think that what a statute says is the law, when in fact it is only one source of law, and is the first source of law.

It's the last source of law that matters. The statutes are like the first points scored, and it's the final score that counts.

I've never understood the public's aversion to consulting an attorney, and I've never seen a truly expensive legal opinion, relative to their value.


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

Jammer Six said:


> Statutes are only the beginning. One of the main problems with internet legal advice is the overwhelming majority of non-lawyers who think that what a statute says is the law, when in fact it is only one source of law, and is the first source of law.
> 
> It's the last source of law that matters. The statutes are like the first points scored, and it's the final score that counts.
> 
> I've never understood the public's aversion to consulting an attorney, and I've never seen a truly expensive legal opinion, relative to their value.


I have. Attorneys that stir cases to generate billable hours, high dollar firms that notice depositions because it's a good excuse to generate a couple hundred billable hours for no work...

Opinion letters from someone who practices in that area though are generally very good deals.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I did a quick word search "Charter" under the Canada Shipping Act, and got one hit back on the word "Charter". Here it is:

*"bare-boat charter means a vessel charter agreement under which the charterer has complete possession and control of the vessel, including the right to appoint its master and crew."*

I think this might be the concept Yamsailor is referring to. But this is specifically a "bare boat charter", not any contract or charter agreement. You can put pretty well whatever you like as terms in a charter agreement as long both parties agree to it and nobodies doing anything illegal.

Etymology might be useful in this case, here's an etymology search for the word "charter"

*charter (n.) Look up charter at Dictionary.comc. 1200, from Old French chartre (12c.) "charter, letter, document, covenant," from Latin chartula/cartula, literally "little paper," diminutive of charta/carta "paper, document" (see chart (n.)).charter (v.) Look up charter at Dictionary.comearly 15c., "provide with a charter," from charter (n.). Meaning "to hire" is attested from 1806. Related: Chartered; chartering. *

Here's one for "rent"

*rent (v.) Look up rent at Dictionary.commid-15c., "to rent out property, grant possession and enjoyment of in exchange for a consideration paid," from Old French renter "pay dues to," or from rent (n.1). Related: Rented; renting. Earlier (mid-14c.) in the more general sense of "provide with revenue." Sense of "to take and hold in exchange for rent" is from 1520s. Intransitive sense of "be leased for rent" is from 1784. Prefix rent-a- first attested 1921, mainly of businesses that rented various makes of car (Rentacar is a trademark registered in U.S. 1924); extended to other "temporary" uses since 1961.rent (n.1) Look up rent at Dictionary.com"payment for use of property," mid-12c., a legal sense, originally "income, revenue" (late Old English), from Old French rente "payment due; profit, income," from Vulgar Latin *rendita, noun use of fem. past participle of rendere "to render" (see render (v.)).*


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

These days charter kinda refers to a lodging product where you stay aboard for multiple days. However "day charters" are available as well.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

You say tomato, I say tomato. Let's call the whole thing off..............

Actually, when non-sailors ask what we're doing on vacation, I say we are renting a sailboat. To the layperson, I believe charter makes them think of having a crew and none understand the term bareboat.


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## dinosdad (Nov 19, 2010)

Man you folks are over complicating it- rent sounds low brow ... - charter sounds more "yachtie" . Just like a lot of other sailing terms - jib sheet - it's a damn rope, just like what grandma used to hang wash on, better quality , more expensive , but still rope... I'm not even gonna get into the moronic term commodore ....


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

One also charters a bus or a jet.

If it's mobile and has a *******, we charter it. If it's mobile and doesn't have a ******* we rent it.

There you have it. Any other legal or tightie whitie briefs please contact my paralegal at Dewey, Cheatum and Whow.

******=****tter


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## Jammer Six (Apr 2, 2015)

Stumble said:


> I have. Attorneys that stir cases to generate billable hours, high dollar firms that notice depositions because it's a good excuse to generate a couple hundred billable hours for no work...
> 
> Opinion letters from someone who practices in that area though are generally very good deals.


I didn't say anything about any of the stuff in your post except the opinion. We appear to agree on that.

We could argue all day about what attorneys do for their money, but there's no point. You've made up your mind and I know what they do for their money, so we're going to leave all the red herrings you dragged in right where they are. We're finished talking about them.


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

Jammer Six said:


> I didn't say anything about any of the stuff in your post except the opinion. We appear to agree on that.
> 
> We could argue all day about what attorneys do for their money, but there's no point. You've made up your mind and I know what they do for their money, so we're going to leave all the red herrings you dragged in right where they are. We're finished talking about them.


Jammer,

You know that I am an attorney right? I deal with shady attorneys all the time.

I actually wasn't arguing with your general proposition, just narrowing it to just those attorneys responding inside their practice area. I do business law, my opinions inside that field are pretty good and I can draft an opinion letter off the top of my head to many legal question say in that area, but ask me a question about maritime liability law and I get little fuzzy. It's an area of personal interest not professional so my base knowledge is less detailed and would take more time to give a good answer. Ask me a family law question, and I don't have much more knowledge than the family law course I took in law school ten years ago to impart. I may still know more than a non-lawyer, but the secretary at a family law office probably knows it better than me.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

RobGallagher said:


> One also charters a bus or a jet.
> 
> If it's mobile and has a *******, we charter it. If it's mobile and doesn't have a ******* we rent it.
> 
> ...


Got it! So you *rent* a Cessna 160, but you *charter* a G650.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I would think the question of a charter is business law, as much as if not more than marine law. A charter party is just a contract between two individuals, one with a boat and one in need of a boat.

They do up a contract or "charter party", if the product or payment isn't satisfactorily delivered, they sue each other.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

Minnewaska said:


> You say tomato, I say tomato. Let's call the whole thing off..............
> 
> Actually, when non-sailors ask what we're doing on vacation, I say we are renting a sailboat. To the layperson, I believe charter makes them think of having a crew and none understand the term bareboat.


This is sort of what started my question. When I tell people at work I'm chartering a sailboat they think I'm also hiring Cap'n Ron to sail it.

When I explain that there's no crew then they ask "So you're renting it?"

I'm just going to chalk it up to another "Because sailing" moment. Like when I explain to newbies "That wire at the front that holds the mast up is called the forestay. This one here in back is called the backstay. What do you think those ones on the side are called." "Sidestays?" "Nope, shrouds. Because sailing."


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## Yamsailor (Jun 7, 2006)

Thank you Arcb. You articulated my point for me.



Arcb said:


> I did a quick word search "Charter" under the Canada Shipping Act, and got one hit back on the word "Charter". Here it is:
> 
> *"bare-boat charter means a vessel charter agreement under which the charterer has complete possession and control of the vessel, including the right to appoint its master and crew."*
> 
> ...


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

Minnesail said:


> This is sort of what started my question. When I tell people at work I'm chartering a sailboat they think I'm also hiring Cap'n Ron to sail it.
> 
> When I explain that there's no crew then they ask "So you're renting it?"
> 
> I'm just going to chalk it up to another "Because sailing" moment. Like when I explain to newbies "That wire at the front that holds the mast up is called the forestay. This one here in back is called the backstay. What do you think those ones on the side are called." "Sidestays?" "Nope, shrouds. Because sailing."


Note we also drive on parkways and park on driveways. I have not the first foggiest idea why the English language is so weird, but it is fun.

Legal wording is just down right stupid sometimes. Ever seen a sentence written that says '...swear, avow, state, proclaim, aver, and adopt...' or its functional equivilant. I doubt there is an attorney in the country that doesn't work for a law school that could tell you the difference between them, and frankly doubt that there's is one. But you really don't want to be the guy who got rid of the verbiage and lost a case over it.


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## Jammer Six (Apr 2, 2015)

Nope, I had no idea what you do for a living.

I'm pretty sure we agree on the basics.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

Stumble said:


> Legal wording is just down right stupid sometimes. Ever seen a sentence written that says '...swear, avow, state, proclaim, aver, and adopt...' or its functional equivilant. I doubt there is an attorney in the country that doesn't work for a law school that could tell you the difference between them, and frankly doubt that there's is one. But you really don't want to be the guy who got rid of the verbiage and lost a case over it.


Our clueless web lackey recently recommended that we update our "Employee Internet Usage Policy" to bullet points and shorter sentences to make it more web-friendly. Ummm&#8230;. The usage policy is a bit dense because it's a legal document, I don't think we're going to futz with the legal wording just so it looks better on a web page&#8230;.


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

Minnesail said:


> Our clueless web lackey recently recommended that we update our "Employee Internet Usage Policy" to bullet points and shorter sentences to make it more web-friendly. Ummm&#8230;. The usage policy is a bit dense because it's a legal document, I don't think we're going to futz with the legal wording just so it looks better on a web page&#8230;.


I cannot tell you how much I hate writing those things. TOS agreements make me feel dirty they are so one sided. If you actually read them I doubt anyone would agree to them. The problem is that companies want maximum protection for themselves, utility of the data, and never want to pay anything or be liable for anything a user does. And since the only people who ever read them are the corporate attorneys...

I have written a few, and I still don't read them. But they generallybe summed up as... the company can do whatever it wants, you have no rights, the company has no obligations to you, but youhave to give them all your data.


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## Yamsailor (Jun 7, 2006)

Some additional resources:

https://www.uscg.mil/pvs/docs/PVSA_NVIC_7-94.pdf

https://www.uscg.mil/pvs/docs/Brocures/PaxForHire.pdf


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## twoshoes (Aug 19, 2010)

Stumble said:


> Note we also drive on parkways and park on driveways.


My favorite is delivery by car is a shipment, whilst delivery by ship is cargo.


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

Wow, I can't believe this thread has continued.

OK...seriously now. Isn't "Charter" an agreement? I really thought it was a shorter way to say, May I pay you to use your ______ for a period of time? If so let's draw up all the paperwork that will detail the fees, liabilities, and what is included or not.

Then we put on funny hats, sit down with quill pens and write on really thick parchment all the things that in so much as or furthermore, define charterer and charterie while drinking rum from metal cups.

Later, when things don't work out, we duel with swords or pistols at dawn.


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