# 1989 Hunter 40 - A million questions.



## smackdaddy

Let's face it, I'm going to have questions on a million different things...all the way up until I sell the boat years from now. I've got a crap-ton of stuff to learn...from electrical stuff, to plumbing stuff, to diesel engine stuff, to bedding hardware stuff, to...well...

I might as well start a dedicated thread.


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## smackdaddy

Okay, here's the first one. Though the survey didn't catch it, there is a pretty bad leak in the water tank. I can't quite tell where it's coming from...but the water is coming out from under the tank...especially when it's over maybe 1/3 full. I discovered it when refilling the tank after we'd emptied it over a couple of weekends. I filled it all the way up and it was leaking like crazy into the bilge.

It's a 105 gallon aluminum tank - and has what I assume to be some kind of baffles on top as shown here:










So my question is this...any reason I shouldn't remove one or two of those covers and see what I can see at the bottom of the tank? My hunch is that it's corroded - but I would love to discover just a bad supply fitting on the bottom.


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## MobiusALilBitTwisted

I would do just that , i hope you find a lose hose clamp, and you are not going to have to line that thing.

Compass Marine's Photo Galleries at pbase.com remember this will be your friend, buy more tape.


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## capttb

Those would be inspection or cleanout plates smacky, the baffles would be inside the tank to prevent all the water from sloshing quickly from side to side, front to back. The pattern may suggest the tank is divided into quarters by baffles with a plate over each quarter. There are small openings in the baffles, you just don't want half a tank shifting all at once, creates a big shock load inside the tank.
105 gallons x 8.5 lbs. per gallon = 892.5 lbs. that's quite a water tank you got there.


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## Jiminri

smackdaddy said:


> So my question is this...any reason I shouldn't remove one or two of those covers and see what I can see at the bottom of the tank? My hunch is that it's corroded - but I would love to discover just a bad supply fitting on the bottom.


Smack,
I would remove all the access plates to clean out the tank. I opened up the aluminum water tanks on my 1986 boat and found what looked like gravel inside. In reality, it was not gravel but aluminum salts or something like that. Anyway, I pulled out fist full after fist full of the stuff. Also, some gross slimy stuff. Then I dried the tanks and scrubbed them. I don't drink the water from the tanks, but I feel better about using it and there is less to clog the filters.

Good luck finding and fixing the leak. I hope both tasks are simple.

BTW, I think you have a really, really cool boat and I appreciate your sharing your thought process on finding and buying. Hope you have many great adventures with your fine crew.

Jim


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## boatpoker

Only 999,999 questions to go 

Good luck with her.


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## smackdaddy

Thanks fellas. I'll dig in next weekend.

PS - any idea what that sealant at the plates should be when I put it back together?


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## ECS-IB30

Smack. ..see my earlier post to another thread...permatex aircraft sealant...stays flexible over time...great stuff..brush applicator in can...


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## night0wl

smackdaddy said:


> Thanks fellas. I'll dig in next weekend.
> 
> PS - any idea what that sealant at the plates should be when I put it back together?


Id probably use 3M 4200.


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## smackdaddy

Whatever I use, I'd definitely like it to be safe for a drinking water tank.


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## chucklesR

Butyl tape - safe, easy to reopen the tank and reclean and put it right back on again. 
Being as it leaks when 1/3 full it's probably a valve/fitting.

I'll remind you of my old trick for finding leaks - get yourself some blue marking string powdered chalf from your local DIY store and sprinkle it in the suspected locations. Go away, come back - the water trail to the leak will be obvious and it's easy to clean up. You'll be needing that chalk for port lights, hatches etc, 

For the rest, electric, diesel etc you have already found the right forum, however I suggest a thread for each. Not many folks dig through 30 pages to find the next question.


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## smackdaddy

Great advice. Thanks Chuckles.


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## chucklesR

smackdaddy said:


> Great advice. Thanks Chuckles.


The other way to find a leak is to put fresh varnish/paint on, inside you'll find a leak, outside this works especially well if it's the planned last coat.

Guaranteed to have a biblical class rain storm pop up.


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## Ajax_MD

smackdaddy said:


> Let's face it, I'm going to have questions on a million different things...all the way up until I sell the boat years from now. I've got a crap-ton of stuff to learn...from electrical stuff, to plumbing stuff, to diesel engine stuff, to bedding hardware stuff, to...well...
> 
> I might as well start a dedicated thread.


Pffft...noob. :laugher


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## smackdaddy

BubbleheadMd said:


> Pffft...noob. :laugher


I suppose next you'll be asking to see my...


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## ecaldwel

Smack, for Hunter sailboat specific questions checkout HunterOwners.com - Home

The store on that site contains Hunter's inventory of OEM spare/replacement parts as Hunter outsourced that business to these guys. There's also a lot of model specific info in the forums there as well. Good luck!


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## Ajax_MD

Rofl... Yikes, pass the eye bleach.


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## smackdaddy

ecaldwel said:


> Smack, for Hunter sailboat specific questions checkout HunterOwners.com - Home
> 
> The store on that site contains Hunter's inventory of OEM spare/replacement parts as Hunter outsourced that business to these guys. There's also a lot of model specific info in the forums there as well. Good luck!


Thanks ecal. I'm a member over there as well and have posted about the boat. I'll continue to check in.


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## smackdaddy

Okay - I have a mystery on my hands (well a mystery to me anyway). A couple of weeks ago I topped-off our fuel tank for the first time. I had my buddy and two boys down below in different areas looking for any obvious leaks as I did so - just in case. No issues.

When we got back to the dock after running the motor for maybe 2 hours total one of the boys asked why it smelled like paint below. Uh-oh. I went down and sure enough there was a strong smell of diesel. I checked the engine bilge and there was just a bit of water in it. Then I checked the main bilge and there was maybe a gallon of diesel in it - mixed with some water. Damn. I pumped it out with a manual pump then our mini shopvac. We stayed at our buddy's house for the evening then came back to the boat the next day. No more leak.

Our assumption at that point was that I'd just over-filled the tank and it had a leak somewhere in the filler hose that leaked when we heeled. No big deal - I'd just try to track it down before filling up again.

This weekend we had exactly the same issue after about 2 hours of motoring. So it doesn't appear to be an overfill issue. Here's my troubleshooting thus far:

I checked the engine compartment. The bilge only had a bit of clear water in it (I assume from the stuffing box). There was no diesel and neither of the filters or hoses showed any sign of leakage.










I then pulled the cover in the aft cabin to have a look at the tank and generator. There were signs of slight leakage on the tank - but the odor wasn't all that strong and I didn't see anything that would indicated a gallon or more of the stuff spilling over the course of a few hours...



















The fuel filter between the tank and the generator seemed to be dry as well.

So a few things are throwing me here:

1. This problem didn't show up until I'd topped off the tank. The test sail during the survey had us motoring the exact same time and distance. No issues that we saw. How could we still be having overflow if it's a filler hose issue?

2. I'm not exactly sure how each compartment feeds the main bilge. But how could the tank compartment and the engine bilge not show pools of diesel - with it only ending up in the main bilge? I assume that it's the tank leaking in the aft compartment and moving through a drain hole directly to the main bilge - bypassing the engine bilge?

3. There just didn't seem to be enough wetness or smell in the tank compartment to indicate that much leakage. Where else could it come from?

4. The motor is running fine - not missing or sounding starved in any way.

Any advice on where to start?

Finally, what is this thing atop the tank? At first I thought it was a gauge (and maybe it is) - but I can't make sense of it.










Thanks fellas.


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## Seaduction

With a gallon of leakage in 2 hours, it could be the fuel return line leaking. If the tank has a leak, it would leak with or without the engine running. Just a thought.


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## Jeff_H

My Guess is that Seaduction nailed it that it is probably the diesel fuel return line, but my other Plan B guess is the tank vent. My operating theory on that one is that when the tank is full, and the engine has been running the return line puts warm fuel back in the tank expanding the fuel and the air trapped in the fill above, pressurizing the tank and forcing fuel into the ventline. In that era vent lines were often simply made of non fuel rated hose, and that can develop pin holes over time. 

Jeff


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## smackdaddy

Awesome, I'll check both of those. If it is the return line, I assume the leak will likely be in the aft tank compartment since there was no fuel in the engine bilge (again, assuming the aft compartment feeds directly to the main bilge)?


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## BarryL

Hey,

The electronic thing on top of the tank is the fuel gauge. There should be a wire leading from the nut to your fuel gauge in the cockpit.

I also suspect the fuel return line is leaking. Should be easy enough to check while the engine is running. Lastly, where you motor sailing with the engine running at a heal angle? That might be why your seeing some leaks. 

Good luck,
Barry


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## smackdaddy

Thanks Barry. We weren't motor sailing (just motored out and raised sail) so I don't think that's it. I'll check the return. That sounds like the culprit. 

Also thanks for the info on the gauge. There's no gauge in the cockpit so I guess that's why there's no wire. I'll see about adding a gauge.


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## RTB

Good luck, Steve. Diesel leaks suck. We had a leak on our way down to Florida. It turned out that the fuel boost pump was the culprit. We replaced it in Port St. Joe, but then had a banjo fitting leaking by the time we made Carrabelle. Both problems were in a hard to see/get to spot. I'm not sure how the diesel gets into the bilge, but it seems that is the first place you'll see it. It goes without saying, don't pump it overboard. Oh, and don't have diesel in you bilge if you come to Florida. They will bust you for it, if you get boarded. 

No diesel smell below is a good thing.

Ralph


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## ECS-IB30

The picture looks to be the fuel level sender - it should have a single ground wire headed back to the gauge - 
I agree with Seaduction - if the leak only occurs when the engine is running it should be the fuel return - it matches all of your symptoms - check or replace the line - even if it was fine on the sea trial, if it was not recently replaced (and in some cases even if it was) it is a pressurized line, likely has swedged fittings at each end - although I have seen them with just hose clamps - I've also seen a hose clamp over tightens to the point where it cut through a fuel line and leaked over time little by little until it finally failed -


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## capecodda

Smack,

Had a boat with 2 fuel tanks...I think yours might have this. It also had 2 fuel selectors, one for the supply line, one for the return line. The "classic" mistake would be to supply from one, and return to the other. If you accidentally did this, you would over time move your fuel from tank A to tank B, and eventually overflow tank B.


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## chall03

Agree with RTB diesel stink below ain't cool.

We had a filler leak early on, and after topping up for a big passage ended up with diesel in the bilge and in the head. It made my otherwise sea saavy wife sick as could be. 

Passage aborted and lesson learn't. Diesel leaks don't blow up your boat but they suck dogs balls. No idea how to fix yours, but good luck. 

Bring on the next question.


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## Ajax_MD

My vote is for the tank vent. I think Jeff spoke correctly about warm, expanded fuel being sent back to the tank, and over-flowing out of the vent.

The reason I say this, is because the problem did not surface until you topped off the tank. Otherwise, my money would be on the fuel return line.

Run the engine under load, and observe the tank vent (if possible) to see if any fuel is burping out of it. I'll bet that after you consume a little more fuel, the "leak" will stop.


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## THEFRENCHA

Fuel odors are pain in the neck
My 2 cents tip: Clean bilge and then drop a bottle of concentrated Spa perfume Bought it at a pool shop and really does wonder


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## smackdaddy

Thanks everyone. I'll have a look and see what's up. Diesel fumes below does indeed suck.


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## RonRelyea

Steve ... good luck finding the leak .. I can't help you there ... but I'd suggest Kanberra Gel or Safe-T-Air for getting rid of the odor instead of trying to mask it with perfume ...


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## Jaramaz

Do you have any idea of the age of all the diesel hoses? Are they really made for diesel? It is very popular to use cheap hose, looking rather like high-quality diesel hose. These rottens from inside, leaks are very difficult to see (but easy to smell, as you know).

In particular the filling hose, and the vent hose could easily be of this simplier kind. 

Otherwise I would agree that the return hose are suspect #1.

BTW: how did it go with the water tank?
(another disadvantage with one thread for all issues ...)

/J


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## smackdaddy

Jaramaz said:


> Do you have any idea of the age of all the diesel hoses? Are they really made for diesel? It is very popular to use cheap hose, looking rather like high-quality diesel hose. These rottens from inside, leaks are very difficult to see (but easy to smell, as you know).
> 
> In particular the filling hose, and the vent hose could easily be of this simplier kind.
> 
> Otherwise I would agree that the return hose are suspect #1.
> 
> BTW: how did it go with the water tank?
> *(another disadvantage with one thread for all issues ...)*
> 
> /J


I'll keep updating the thread here as I work through each issue. Easier than working multiple threads. So no worries.

I have a guy looking at the water tank issue today. I'll troubleshoot the diesel thing next weekend when we're down there.


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## smackdaddy

Okay - a quick update on a couple of things:

1. The diesel leak - I think we're in the clear. We took the boat out a couple of weekends ago and no fuel in the bilge. The original surveyor was gracious enough to come out and take a look at things - and he didn't charge me a penny (Lou Stahlberg - use him if you're in the market). He found a screw missing from the fuel gauge (essentially leaving a hole in the tank). So I replaced it and so far so good. We'll see what happens on the next fill - but for now it doesn't appear to be any of the lines (since the leak stopped as the tank level went down). Still wonder about the vent line.

2. I went up the mast today and changed out the ST60 wind transducer. I was getting no love on windspeed/direction. I figured it was due to shoddy wiring by the dudes who dropped the mast, did the rerigging and pulled new wire. But when I swapped out the old transducer with the new one - BING! Butter. Of course, that was a $400 stick of butter. I feel like I'm in the "Last Tango in Paris".


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## Jaramaz

Isn't that typical - a small screw, difficult to detect! 
(and that reminds me, should I refill the dieseltank, or not .... and add some anti-bacteria ... not, it's to cold).

Congrats!

/J


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## Jaramaz

Watched your vid (posted on the steelboat thread). Didn't know Hunters could be that nice. Enjoy!

/J


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## smackdaddy

Thanks Jar. She is a beauty.


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## smackdaddy

Time for the next installment of "The Smack Boys and Their Yacht":

*The Money Blizzard*










See that far away, lustful look in my eye while helming during the test sail? Reason was now overboard - sinking like a stone. I was buying this boat.

I wrote the checks for the final purchase total and stepped into the heady world of yacht ownership.

Had I only known the blizzard of cash that was about to swirl around my account and blow right out the gaping hole I'd just blown in it with a beautiful sailboat...

*MORE*


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## MarkofSeaLife

smackdaddy said:


> *The Money Blizzard*


*

Hey, Smack, stop listening to other people tell you what you need. They are all BS. Just run it as is for a year then after that do what you know needs doing, not what someone else says needs doing.



Mark*


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## smackdaddy

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Hey, Smack, stop listening to other people tell you what you need. They are all BS. Just run it as is for a year then after that do what _*you*_ know needs doing, not what someone else says needs doing.
> 
> 
> 
> Mark


Thanks Mark. I've definitely come to your conclusion.


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## Dfok

arrrrgggggghhhhh - ran through the thread, raced through the blog, got stuck at the mast wiring. 
You holding out the next installment or am I chasing a missing link?
Great techno sailing mystery - reads like Tom Swift meets Joshua Slocum - at the start I suspected the diesel return line - isn't the gimme a point of a mystery? The missed clue likely was in the picture of the top of the tank gizmo but who has time to go back when the hero is poised between boat and checkbook?


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## Delta-T

Great find with the screw missing. I was reading through the thread and saw the picture with the clearly missing screw and did not notice it. The ST60 bearing is usually the issue. I had to do the same thing. The original lasted 12 years. Cheaper to have rebuilt than buy new, but nice to have a spare one rebuilt so you only have to go up once to change it out. Raymarine has only one place in the USA for repairs, in NH that will rebuild anything they sell. I need to send them my Auto and plan on having them do the ST60 at the same time.

Raymarine Product Repair Center
9 Townsend West
Nashua, NH 03063 USA
http://www.raymarine.com/view/?id=837


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## Don L

smackdaddy said:


> Had I only known the blizzard of cash that was about to swirl around my account and blow right out the gaping hole I'd just blown in it with a beautiful sailboat...


sounds like a boat


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## smackdaddy

Dfok said:


> arrrrgggggghhhhh - ran through the thread, raced through the blog, got stuck at the mast wiring.
> You holding out the next installment or am I chasing a missing link?
> Great techno sailing mystery - reads like Tom Swift meets Joshua Slocum - at the start I suspected the diesel return line - isn't the gimme a point of a mystery? The missed clue likely was in the picture of the top of the tank gizmo but who has time to go back when the hero is poised between boat and checkbook?


I don't know what's up with the mast wiring page thing. I just looked at it and it's fine on my end. (Did you get down to this line "More on this little nightmare as well as the Holy Water tank and LED Bulb Swap in the next installment. Stay tuned!"?)

I was doing some updating, so it might have just been a glitch. Check it again and let me know.

We'll see if the screw was the culprit next time I fill the tank. Keeping the fingers crossed.


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## Dfok

no joy - I see the "More on this.....stay tuned" and a hotlink below for "Interior....Pt 1" which loops me back to 
TSBY_13_06 : BFSshop.com, is the official home of BFS Gear for Big Freakin Sails!

maybe just me, I've been know to screw up the entire internet before this.


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## smackdaddy

Dfok said:


> no joy - I see the "More on this.....stay tuned" and a hotlink below for "Interior....Pt 1" which loops me back to
> TSBY_13_06 : BFSshop.com, is the official home of BFS Gear for Big Freakin Sails!
> 
> maybe just me, I've been know to screw up the entire internet before this.


That's correct then. The next installment will come soon.


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## Dfok

BRILLIANT! Is it the diesel sender? The wire from the mast? Could it be a magnetic screwdriver misplaced by the marine plumber whilst clearing the macerator bog?
You Mr Smack can twist a tale and may have a sailing classic on your hands - can't wait for the next chapter.
What kind of anchor you thinking about - heh?


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## chall03

That sucks Smack, but couldn't agree with you more.

Our standing rigging on a 35ft sloop came to 12k Aus( 10kish US).

I have never have a estimate come close to actual cost on any boat job. I normally double the quote and then start to question everything - Politely. 

Our policy is to very much avoid 'hiring a man' (The title my wife uses on our maintenance checklist) unless it is something we definitely cannot do.

Also agree with Mark. Take it all with a grain of salt, you will figure out what needs doing.


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## zedboy

Wow, Smackers - big boats really do make bigger holes in the water. Who knew?

Good luck!


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## capecodda

Smack,

I know this won't help, but I think what's happening to you is more or less par for the course. Everything costs more than we think. In the yard's defense, more than they think too. How many times have you tried to fix something, figured it would take about 10 minutes in the morning, and still find yourself buried in the bilge by dinner time? Lot's of times for me.

With a new boat to us, this usually goes on till I touch every system once. Then things stabilize for a while, until my repairs get old and we start again

But remember this, you might run out of money, but for sure, all of us eventually run out of time. Go sailing and enjoy your family.


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## smackdaddy

capecodda said:


> But remember this, you might run out of money, but for sure, all of us eventually run out of time. Go sailing and enjoy your family.


You nailed it cape. I really don't mind the money. It's nothing compared to sailing with my boys.

I'm fitting out the boat for our crossing to Florida then down to the BVIs over the next 4 summers. So there's a lot to do. It's just impressive how quickly it adds up. And I think it's important for newbs to know what they're getting into when buying a boat. Do you have $10K sitting in your account AFTER you've bought the boat? (Assuming you're going to take her on a big trip.)

I'm also learning a lot. I can handle most things at a general level (engine work, electrical, plumbing, etc.) - but I have no problem calling "The Man" when I need to. I just watch and learn.

Being fairly meticulous, though, it drives me crazy when I see sloppy work like that rat's nest in the bilge. Especially when I've paid good money for it. And I would never get away with coming in 80% (see revision below) above our estimates with our clients in my businesses. So I have no problem questioning a pro that does so. That shouldn't happen. Period.

It's all good, though. The sailing is absolutely worth it.


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## Ajax_MD

Sounds like "1st World Problems" to me. 

Smack, 80% cost overruns and crappy work are why I do 99% of everything myself. Right now, I have a LARGE through-hull in a difficult place that is leaking, and I'm toying with the idea of having a professional remove and fill the hole.

In the end, I think my fear of being overcharged for ****ty workmanship is going to drive me to make the repair myself.

If it weren't for your bum arm, I would have told you to do all the standing rigging yourself, using swageless, Hayn Hi-Mod fittings. I'll be making my own upper shrouds this month, using them.


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## capecodda

One of my sailing buddies was upset because he about to head off on a cruise, and his boat was not ready. Lot's of items on his to do list. We came up with the following prioritized list, and off he went, with a number of "small" things still not working. He had a great time.

Here's the list:

1. No Leaks - if the boat leaks and sinks, pretty much any thought of having a good cruise is out the window (I guess small leaks are OK). This item also encompasses common sense stuff like the keel should stay attached.
2. Rudder - If you cannot steer the boat, what's the point. Also, had a buddy loose his rudder about 500 miles from anywhere on the way to Tortola. Hard to go in straight line with makeshift stuff. 
3. Rig - If the rig falls on your head, you cannot sail. Sails need to be reasonable too, but the rig needs to stand or the sails are just interesting hunks of synthetic fabric. Yea, I know someone will tell us a story of a makeshift rig across an ocean, but if given the choice they'd rather not.
4. Anchor - Need to stop once in a while in places where it's shallow enough to find the bottom. The closest thing we've got to brakes in a car.
5. Engine - Case the wind dies, and we aren't skilled enough to sail into any marina in any wind condition (although I understand many sail netters are, so good for those who can).

Yea, I'm assuming you've got safety gear, meet the CG regs, etc. Goes without saying. 

But when you think about it, everything else is just about added comfort and convenience. If the winnebago stuff fails, you can find a way to keep going and fix it later.

Pressure water fails - foot pump
head fails - bucket
fridge fails - ice, in the UK they like warm beer?
ac fails - leave the marina, anchor and open the hatches, go swimming
audio system - talk or sing
radios - be self sufficient for a bit, miss the daily net gossip
chart plotter - paper and eyeballs
depth sounder - lead line
radar - stay put till the fog lifts or nav the old way
wind instruments - wet your finger and hold it up

Yea, I like having all that stuff work too and there's plenty of strong opinions on what safety gear you need, all the way from those who won't go anywhere without a personal rescue copter at the ready, to those who say I'm on my own in the wet wilderness. 

But it's hard to have a good cruise without the high priority items working 

Do what I say, not what I do. Get the priority stuff right then go! Sounds like you've got quite an adventure on the horizon.


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## Jaramaz

Smack,

you blog was a good read. Thanks!

As some of the otheres in this thread I am doing most on my boat myself. Started due to monetary limitations during student period, later on when I could afford hiring help I usually wasn't satisfied with their work - better do it myself, then I know who to blame.
With time, I have even started to enjoy the work. Quite different from my normal job, nice to actually do something concrete with tangeable results. 

Last year I changed my rudder bearing. Well, I could refrain from laughing during the digging in frozen soil. When all was finished, I admire my own work. (my boat is in the same size and age as yours, check the bearings before something drastic has to be done).

In your blog you mention blisters. I had that on a previous 35 ft boat. Sanded down the old paint, by hand (limted budget ...), fixed the blisters, put on a number of epoxy layers. Not expensive, somwhat time consuming (50-60 hours in total I think) and certainly tiring. 

And so it goes on. Better to enjoy it. 

Best

J


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## zedboy

I don't think I ever went over budget on having work done to the boat - mostly because over the course of owning two boats, about 95% of the time I wanted something done, there was no one to do it, so I had to do it myself. One of the benefits of not being in a full-service commercial marina (and the guys nearby only touched powerboats).

But never fear, one way or another I still managed to blow through the budget by a few thousand dollars... darn holes in the water have a way of doing that 

No regrets. The memories for the kids growing up on the boat from a young age are priceless.


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## smackdaddy

I went back and re-read the section of the rigging cost and, though the overall numbers were generally accurate, there was a lot of detail missing. This made South Texas Yacht Services look bad - and I don't mean to do that. In the end, they stuck to their rigging estimate (apparently eating a fair sum) - which I totally respect.

So, here is the revised entry with ALL the numbers.



> Remember that $6K estimate for the rigging? At the end of it all, we ended up at almost EIGHT THOUSAND FIVE HUNDRED DOLLARS!!! How the hell did that happen??? I have to say, I was seriously shocked.
> 
> To be fair, let's go back and look at a breakdown of the estimates and actuals:
> 
> Original Ballpark Estimate at Survey: ~$5,000
> 
> Actual Estimate/Bill (with parts/replacement of boom sheaves added):
> -Decom/Recom of Mast: $880
> -Crane/Cherry Picker Unstep: $450
> -Replace All Standing Riggin & Topping Lift: $5,107
> -Replace All Boom Sheaves: $555
> -Total With Tax and Surcharges: $7,644
> 
> As mentioned above, I gave the okay to start work and decided to pull new wire for the mast fixtures (radar, lights, etc.) while the mast was down. I purchased all the wire based on their recommendations and worked with their guy for a couple of hours pulling it through the mast. I installed a new VHF antenna, anchor light, and transducer cup myself. And I bought a new deck/steaming light combo - which the guy riveted to the mast himself. Beyond that, he had to purchase a couple of European terminals at Radio Shack for the wind transducer and radar. Also, there were some rigging parts that needed repair/replacement which could not have been seen beforehand. So here's the breakdown of that work:
> 
> Actual Bill:
> -Labor to Replace Mast Wiring, Fixture, Bus Bar, etc.: $510
> -Outside Sales: misc parts, roller furling, connector, weld spreaders, connectors, etc.: $242
> -Total With Tax: $822
> 
> So here I was at right at $8,500.
> 
> This last bill seemed high since I had done a good deal of that work - and the re-wiring stuff with the recommissioning of the mast would have had to have been done anyway. So, I had a word with the yard manager and he sent me a line-itemed bill showing that they were actually already eating almost $2K in order to stick to their original estimate as possible. Here's that breakdown:
> 
> Actual Line Items From STYS:
> -Decom/Recom of Mast: $559 ($230 less than original estimate)
> -Crane/Cherry Picker Unstep: $450
> -Replace All Standing Riggin & Topping Lift: $7,431 (~45% more than estimate)
> -Replace All Boom Sheaves: $302 (~45% less than estimate)
> -Total With Tax and Surcharges: $9,558
> 
> To me, this was just insane. I mean, shouldn't a professional yard kind of know these things when estimating? How can your estimate be FIFTY PERCENT OFF of the actual price????
> 
> Damn B&R rig! Wow.
> 
> In the end, I suppose we both got hurt on this one. So I'm not necessarily upset at STYS (they did stick to their original higher estimate on the rigging after all) - but it certainly ballooned way beyond what I was expecting. Better communication during the process would have been very helpful.
> 
> I think the biggest lesson learned here is to not add on work in the midst of a specific project. Or at least make sure you know the exact costs before getting into that additional stuff. I'll use STYS again since they stuck to their original estimate - but I'll be far more careful about what I ask for and what I expect.


----------



## chall03

capecodda said:


> One of my sailing buddies was upset because he about to head off on a cruise, and his boat was not ready. Lot's of items on his to do list. We came up with the following prioritized list, and off he went, with a number of "small" things still not working. He had a great time.
> 
> Here's the list:
> 
> 1. No Leaks - if the boat leaks and sinks, pretty much any thought of having a good cruise is out the window (I guess small leaks are OK). This item also encompasses common sense stuff like the keel should stay attached.
> 2. Rudder - If you cannot steer the boat, what's the point. Also, had a buddy loose his rudder about 500 miles from anywhere on the way to Tortola. Hard to go in straight line with makeshift stuff.
> 3. Rig - If the rig falls on your head, you cannot sail. Sails need to be reasonable too, but the rig needs to stand or the sails are just interesting hunks of synthetic fabric. Yea, I know someone will tell us a story of a makeshift rig across an ocean, but if given the choice they'd rather not.
> 4. Anchor - Need to stop once in a while in places where it's shallow enough to find the bottom. The closest thing we've got to brakes in a car.
> 5. Engine - Case the wind dies, and we aren't skilled enough to sail into any marina in any wind condition (although I understand many sail netters are, so good for those who can).
> 
> Yea, I'm assuming you've got safety gear, meet the CG regs, etc. Goes without saying.
> 
> But when you think about it, everything else is just about added comfort and convenience. If the winnebago stuff fails, you can find a way to keep going and fix it later.
> 
> Pressure water fails - foot pump
> head fails - bucket
> fridge fails - ice, in the UK they like warm beer?
> ac fails - leave the marina, anchor and open the hatches, go swimming
> audio system - talk or sing
> radios - be self sufficient for a bit, miss the daily net gossip
> chart plotter - paper and eyeballs
> depth sounder - lead line
> radar - stay put till the fog lifts or nav the old way
> wind instruments - wet your finger and hold it up
> 
> Yea, I like having all that stuff work too and there's plenty of strong opinions on what safety gear you need, all the way from those who won't go anywhere without a personal rescue copter at the ready, to those who say I'm on my own in the wet wilderness.
> 
> But it's hard to have a good cruise without the high priority items working
> 
> Do what I say, not what I do. Get the priority stuff right then go! Sounds like you've got quite an adventure on the horizon.


I like John Harries approach to this......

*What Really Matters*

Keep the water out
Keep the crew on the boat
Keep the keel side down
Keep the mast up
Keep the rudder on

The rest is small stuff.

We now prioritise every job/upgrade on the basis of the big 5.


----------



## CalebD

Nicely told Steve.
The cash blizzard will continue though.
You haven't even started listing your monthly slip fees.


----------



## smackdaddy

CalebD said:


> Nicely told Steve.
> The cash blizzard will continue though.
> You haven't even started listing your monthly slip fees.


$250/month plus electric (which has never been more than $6 in a month). Of course, I've worked a deal where I don't have to pay any of that. So it's all good.


----------



## tommays

Smack 

WOW glad i stooped at 29' as complete set of wire and turnbuckles and pins was only 1100 dollars 

Can you break down some of the standing rigging costs as even my friends all new 100% Navteq Rod rigging (everything NEW) and T900 running rigging was in the 5K ballpark 

Whats up with the cherry picker or is steeping masts rare down there as they do them by the hundreds up here as myself and mucho friends do this spring and fall 

My mast gets pulled broken down, racked and put back up in the spring for 900 soup to nuts and on a bigger boat it would just be 9 bucks more per mast foot unless you had triple spreaders ?


----------



## smackdaddy

tommays said:


> Smack
> 
> WOW glad i stooped at 29' as complete set of wire and turnbuckles and pins was only 1100 dollars
> 
> Can you break down some of the standing rigging costs as even my friends all new 100% Navteq Rod rigging (everything NEW) and T900 running rigging was in the 5K ballpark
> 
> Whats up with the cherry picker or is steeping masts rare down there as they do them by the hundreds up here as myself and mucho friends do this spring and fall
> 
> My mast gets pulled broken down, racked and put back up in the spring for 900 soup to nuts and on a bigger boat it would just be 9 bucks more per mast foot unless you had triple spreaders ?


Tom,

Unfortunately I can't give you a detailed breakdown, as they didn't provide me one. You see what I saw in the numbers.

That said, each of the three other riggers I spoke with confirmed the ballpark we were in due to the B&R rig set-up.

I have a 53' mast with double spreaders and intermediates in a "X" shape between the spreaders. Here's a diagram:










So that means:

Forestay
Split Backstay
Shrouds (Split at each spreader w/fittings)
Intermediates (Between each spreader for a total of 8 w/fittings)
Topping Lift

It is a lot of hardware...but jeez.

As for the other costs (cherry picker, etc.) - I don't know what to tell you. These were charges.


----------



## benesailor

smack,
You were taken for a ride. These guys could have easily known what the parts should have cost with labor! I could have told you what the parts cost! I'm amazed! I did my rig myself (48' mast), same basic rig as yours with 2 backstays for roughly 3.5k. I used norseman fittings rather than swaged. That being said; swaged fittings are cheaper! I have discontinuous rigging as well. The only thing i haven't replaced yet are the turnbuckles. I did all the work when i had the boat out for the winter. 

A friend of mine showed me how its done. It was VERY easy doing it myself. I'd never pay a rigger to do it ever again. I will say that the ballpark quote is close to what they charge.


----------



## benesailor

> Actual Line Items From STYS:
> -Decom/Recom of Mast: $559 ($230 less than original estimate)
> -Crane/Cherry Picker Unstep: $450
> -Replace All Standing Rigging & Topping Lift: $7,431 (~45% more than estimate)
> -Replace All Boom Sheaves: $302 (~45% less than estimate)
> -Total With Tax and Surcharges: $9,558


To give you a comparison. It is cheaper where I'm at.

My costs:
Decom/Recom + Crane = $3.00 a foot going up and going down. (48') ($288. TTL)
Standing rigging minus turnbuckles $3.5 k
Replaced bad boom sheaves $112 as necessary (in-mast furling)
Rewired mast with new mast and anchor lights ~ $260

My rig comes down every year so i can take it down the canal to where i store it. I do all the work myself as i no longer trust anyone to do the work correctly. My transmission blew after it was "just serviced" by a guy in Palm beach. It was my fault as i never checked the oil before i went out! (There was no recourse against the yard)I thought i was ok, guess not. New tranny and $3.5 later i felt so much better.

Had a "professional" (from a very big name co) work on fixing a void in my bottom. Caught him taking a shortcut. He was fired and i finished it myself.

My buddy had his engine pulled so he could have the block "stitched" and they didn't hook up the tranny linkage right. He hit the concrete canal wall sill at 5 knots. Thank god the boat is cold molded. It would have sunk my boat.

This is why i do the work myself.


----------



## smackdaddy

benesailor said:


> ...fixing a void in my bottom.


Yep. Kind of what this whole ordeal felt like. Heh-heh.

It was an expensive lesson. And I haven't yet finished the story!

That said, I honestly wouldn't even want to do the standing rigging myself. There are many things I'll do myself, but that ain't one of them - especially for what we're gearing up for. That's just me.


----------



## benesailor

Once someone explains it to you, you will say that was EASY. Besides; what would you do if you were in a remote land with no rigger around?

Easy Button | Flickr - Photo Sharing!


----------



## smackdaddy

Wow! Very cool. Thanks Bene.


----------



## benesailor

smack, it ain't hard! And the fittings are re-useable!


----------



## chall03

Like I said above, we also took a big hit on standing rigging. 

At the time we were in a rush, newbies and were more readily parted with our wallets than we are now. 

Given our time again I would go down Bene's path, Either Norseman or Sta Lok and I would do it myself. 

You live and you learn though.


----------



## SloopJonB

Smack, your ordeal has confirmed an opinion I formed on a friends Hunter.

I don't like B&R rigs.

I really don't get the supposed benefit of no standing backstay - at the cost of the hugely increased complexity & cost of the rig. Tuning one of those things must be a nightmare.

It strikes me as an odd choice for a "value priced" boat. I imagine they have good reasons but I sure don't know what they are.


----------



## smackdaddy

SloopJonB said:


> Smack, your ordeal has confirmed an opinion I formed on a friends Hunter.
> 
> I don't like B&R rigs.
> 
> I really don't get the supposed benefit of no standing backstay - at the cost of the hugely increased complexity & cost of the rig. Tuning one of those things must be a nightmare.
> 
> It strikes me as an odd choice for a "value priced" boat. I imagine they have good reasons but I sure don't know what they are.


I actually think the design principles behind the B&R Rig are very good for short-handed cruising:






However, on my particular H40 I still have a backstay - which negates the ability to carry more roach in the main...but lets me put some bend in the mast when I need it.

The biggest issue, as everyone knows, is downwind sailing. With the swept back spreaders you can't open up the main as much. And since it's the primary engine on this type of rig, that's an issue. Therefore, I'll be getting and assym kite for our boat before we head out.

That said, the new Beneteaus (Oceanis, First, etc.) have the same swept-back spreaders with backstay (like my boat) so it must not be a horrible thing. The main difference I see between my rig and the new Benes is that they have fewer intermediate diagonals (which I think is part of the higher cost of rigging the B&R).


----------



## Don L

smackdaddy said:


> I
> 
> The biggest issue, as everyone knows, is downwind sailing. With the swept back spreaders you can't open up the main as much. And since it's the primary engine on this type of rig, that's an issue. Therefore, I'll be getting and assym kite for our boat before we head out.


Yes you can not run as deep downwind (I can sail mine wing-on-wing), but the real problem is that people just don't learn to sail it for what it is. If your B&R rigged sail was made correctly there should be patches on the main so you can put it against the spreaders. I've been putting mine against the spreaders for years and there hasn't been any problems.

BTW - I don't find running that running on my assym to allow me to go all that much deeper downwind than without it unless I pull the main it to allow the wind to it. Flying the assym is about light wind sailing.


----------



## smackdaddy

Don0190 said:


> Yes you can not run as deep downwind (I can sail mine wing-on-wing), but the real problem is that people just don't learn to sail it for what it is. If your B&R rigged sail was made correctly there should be patches on the main so you can put it against the spreaders. I've been putting mine against the spreaders for years and there hasn't been any problems.
> 
> BTW - I don't find running that running on my assym to allow me to go all that much deeper downwind than without it unless I pull the main it to allow the wind to it. Flying the assym is about light wind sailing.


True. I've done a lot of wing-on-wing sailing in the off-shore races I've crewed. It's great. I'll be adding a whisker pole for that.

To me though, the assym chute is just about getting more sail area up on a broad/deep reach. Just another gear.


----------



## Faster

Smack, our spreaders are swept 'Hunter' style too.. we have a backstay but it's Dyneema on a whip - the mast will stand up without it but I don't consider it 'superfluous', and being able to lift it up during light air gybes is great (we've got a pretty decent roach) Not sure that approach would work for your masthead version.

I've never truly chafed at 'not being able to ease the main out as far' as on previous boats.. generally I prefer to sail higher angles than DDW anyway, and as mentioned WonW still 'works'. Asymms simply won't fly well below certain angles, and without a symmetrical to 'fill the gap' I can see an issue there.. though some use an Asymm wing on wing too....


----------



## smackdaddy

Faster said:


> Smack, our spreaders are swept 'Hunter' style too.. we have a backstay but it's Dyneema on a whip - the mast will stand up without it but I don't consider it 'superfluous', and being able to lift it up during light air gybes is great (we've got a pretty decent roach) Not sure that approach would work for your masthead version.
> 
> I've never truly chafed at 'not being able to ease the main out as far' as on previous boats.. generally I prefer to sail higher angles than DDW anyway, and as mentioned WonW still 'works'. Asymms simply won't fly well below certain angles, and without a symmetrical to 'fill the gap' I can see an issue there.. though some use an Asymm wing on wing too....


Thanks Fast. So, just in terms of "performance cruising" (not racing) do you think and assym is worth the expense? We do have a fairly full genny. I'm not sure exactly what it is, but I think it's likely between 130 and 140.


----------



## bubb2

Smack, I have both an .75 oz and 1.50 oz assym. I use a atn tacker when running, it keeps the chute on the center line of the boat. I don't use the main much as most of the time I am alone. I find I lose only about 1/2 to 3/4 of a knot. I can fly the 1.5 oz to about 15 +/- knots. Above 10 knots it pulls like a fright train and the main just disrupts your air the deeper down wind you go.


----------



## smackdaddy

bubb2 said:


> Smack, I have both an .75 oz and 1.50 oz assym. I use a atn tacker when running, it keeps the chute on the center line of the boat. I don't use the main much as most of the time I am alone. I find I lose only about 1/2 to 3/4 of a knot. I can fly the 1.5 oz to about 15 +/- knots. Above 10 knots it pulls like a fright train and the main just disrupts your air the deeper down wind you go.


Thanks Bubb. So would you recommend the assym for what we're planning to do?


----------



## bubb2

smackdaddy said:


> Thanks Bubb. So would you recommend the assym for what we're planning to do?


Absolutely, They are not that hard to rig or gybe and they do a better job than a large jib the deeper down wind you go.


----------



## smackdaddy

bubb2 said:


> Absolutely, They are not that hard to rig or gybe and they do a better job than a large jib the deeper down wind you go.


Cool. Thanks Bubb.

The funny thing is...a new freakin' _whisker pole_ for my 40'er runs close to $2K. I'd much rather put that money into an assym and use 10 broomsticks duct-taped together for the wp.


----------



## bubb2

smackdaddy said:


> Cool. Thanks Bubb.
> 
> The funny thing is...a new freakin' _whisker pole_ for my 40'er runs close to $2K. I'd much rather put that money into an assym and use 10 broomsticks duct-taped together for the wp.


You are not going to need a pole for the assym if you keep the main down and use a tacker. That being said, I once built an adjustable pole using a section of 2" pvc and a section of 1.5 pvc that slid inside the 2". It worked better than it sounds. You can make your own roller tacker for $50. Sorry I know I am sounding like the steal boat guy.


----------



## Faster

smackdaddy said:


> Thanks Fast. So, just in terms of "performance cruising" (not racing) do you think and assym is worth the expense? We do have a fairly full genny. I'm not sure exactly what it is, but I think it's likely between 130 and 140.


I think you'll get plenty of use of an Asymm - the improvement over a genny on a broad reach is considerable, and, as Bubb mentions you can run it without the main deeper than that (but only if you have a good snuffer - on your boat that's a lot of nylon to deal with without the shadow/lee of a mainsail)

I'm not a fan of spinnaker-only sailing, but I've never had a snuffer. I did once have the 'pleasure' of trying to wrestle a symm spinn down in a building breeze without a main - that was the last time


----------



## SloopJonB

smackdaddy said:


> Cool. Thanks Bubb.
> 
> The funny thing is...a new freakin' _whisker pole_ for my 40'er runs close to $2K. I'd much rather put that money into an assym and use 10 broomsticks duct-taped together for the wp.


You gotta track down some good consignment shops. Check the Good Old Boat website - I seem to recall there was one in Texas somewhere.


----------



## smackdaddy

bubb2 said:


> You are not going to need a pole for the assym if you keep the main down and use a tacker. That being said, I once built an adjustable pole using a section of 2" pvc and a section of 1.5 pvc that slid inside the 2". It worked better than it sounds. You can make your own roller tacker for $50. *Sorry I know I am sounding like the steal boat guy.*


No! Seriously, that's the best side of Brent Swain! Coming up with ingenious workarounds! If that dude could lay off the "Steel Is God" prosthelytizing and focus on cool anti-tech like the PVC whisker pole - that would be awesome!

I'm definitely going to try your invention.


----------



## smackdaddy

SloopJonB said:


> You gotta track down some good consignment shops. Check the Good Old Boat website - I seem to recall there was one in Texas somewhere.


We have a Boater's Resale Shop in Kemah, but the prices are ridiculous for the quality of used stuff you get. It's like they are the West Marine of Nautical Crap.


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## bubb2

if you are going to try the pvc pole thing for a 40 foot boat I would go with 2.5 inch and 2 inch, just sayin'


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## bubb2

You use pipe caps on both ends that you drill though and thru bolt eye bolts to attach your hooks.


----------



## smackdaddy

bubb2 said:


> if you are going to try the pvc pole thing for a 40 foot boat I would go with 2.5 inch and 2 inch, just sayin'


Okay - I'm seriously trying this. I'll video it for posterity.

Ladies and Gentlemen - the* Bubb-O-Matic 'Stache Pole* is coming!


----------



## bubb2

you use cheek blocks mounted at the ends, line and small jam cleats to make your adjustments. We are talking 1/4 inch stuff.


----------



## chall03

smackdaddy said:


> Okay - I'm seriously trying this. I'll video it for posterity.
> 
> Ladies and Gentlemen - the* Bubb-O-Matic 'Stache Pole* is coming!


Cool, BUT If you start making a Smack-Block and posting badly punctuated tirades in 15 line sentences then i'm out.


----------



## smackdaddy

chall03 said:


> Cool, BUT If you start making a Smack-Block and posting badly punctuated tirades in 15 line sentences then i'm out.


Heh-heh. I'm aboriginal you know.


----------



## smackdaddy

So - anybody wanna trade their assym spinnaker (for 40' boat) for my like-new tri-radial 140 laminated racing genny?


----------



## Don L

I bet if you do a web search you can find a good used chute fairly cheap


----------



## smackdaddy

Don0190 said:


> I bet if you do a web search you can find a good used chute fairly cheap


Yeah, I've seen a lot online. But there ain't no cheap like trade cheap.


----------



## SloopJonB

You don't have to have an asym either Smack - a sym can be flown like an asym and it works pretty well. You generally get a much bigger sail as well - most asyms are only genoa size.

We flew a used 1/2 Oz. from my Columbia 43 that way on a friends Hunter 38. The Hunter was a frac B&R so it was WAY oversize (1400 Sq. Ft.) but it flew nicely and man would it pull.

Cost about $500 including rigging. We tacked it to the anchor roller with a short strop and would gybe it by swinging it all the way out & around the headstay and turning it inside out. You need REALLY long sheets to do it - we used double the LOD.

Lots of cheap fun.


----------



## JimMcGee

Smack have you looked at the Doyle UPS on a top down furler or any of the code 0 sails on a similar setup. Good light air sails that can be sailed downwind or up to around 40 degrees (some claim higher).

Handling the sail on a furler from the cockpit would be easier than wrestling with a spinnaker if it's just you and the boys on board -- but cheap it ain't.

We were quoted $3,400 for a retractable bow sprit, furler and UPS sail for our 30.

The video on this page loads up three back to back videos on this combo.
http://www.doylesails.com/cruising/downwind/ups/


----------



## smackdaddy

Jim - thanks for the advice. I'll check it out.

I'm just wanting to keep it simple - and retractable sprit seems a bit much. But definitely worth a look.


----------



## smackdaddy

Off to the yacht this weekend for some more project work. I'll do a write-up on this soon, but I've installed a very cool wireless nav system using the iMux. I can steer the boat with my iPhone. Heh-heh.

I'm getting close on the list of to-dos for the big trip. It's cool!


----------



## Don L

smackdaddy said:


> Off to the yacht this weekend for some more project work. I'll do a write-up on this soon, but I've installed a very cool wireless nav system using the iMux. I can steer the boat with my iPhone. Heh-heh.
> 
> I'm getting close on the list of to-dos for the big trip. It's cool!


sounds like you have an interesting to do list if steering via your iPhone was more important to get done than other stuff


----------



## smackdaddy

Priorities my friend.


----------



## capecodda

Hey Smack,

Can you sail your boat from at home or office from your iPhone? If so, make sure your boss doesn't catch you!

Just saying


----------



## smackdaddy

capecodda said:


> Hey Smack,
> 
> Can you sail your boat from at home or office from your iPhone? If so, make sure your boss doesn't catch you!
> 
> Just saying


Heh-heh. I'll have to try that. Oh, and you're right, the guy I work for is a complete bastard* so I'll be careful.

(*I _am_ the boss.)


----------



## GeorgeB

Smack, when you do your BVI cruise, are you planning on going via Grand Cayman/Jamaica, the thorny path or into the Atlantic, then south? 

In regards to your genoa, I’d say keep it and get an extendable whisker pole. That combination will give you the widest set of options. You can always add a kite to this inventory. I am in the planning stages for my Mexico trip. I’m planning on bringing my Pentex laminate 130 genoa and whisker. If I had a 140, I’d bring that instead. I am planning on having one “junior helmsman” on board and I know that that guy won’t be up to flying a kite at night with any degree of proficiency. I’ve tried this before and found that the “juniors” tend to drive hotter angles at night, thus driving the boat off course. You spend the next watch getting the boat back on the rhumb line. Very inefficient. My plan is kite during the days and at night with the experienced helmsmen. Douse, and run wing on wing with the “junior” during the night. I should get an added benefit of a few hours of running really deep to boot. Remember those unhappy sailors on that recent Transpac – you don’t want to spend all your time untangling head stay wraps and mending the inevitable rips and tears that result.


----------



## smackdaddy

GeorgeB said:


> Smack, when you do your BVI cruise, are you planning on going via Grand Cayman/Jamaica, the thorny path or into the Atlantic, then south?
> 
> In regards to your genoa, I'd say keep it and get an extendable whisker pole. That combination will give you the widest set of options. You can always add a kite to this inventory. I am in the planning stages for my Mexico trip. I'm planning on bringing my Pentex laminate 130 genoa and whisker. If I had a 140, I'd bring that instead. I am planning on having one "junior helmsman" on board and I know that that guy won't be up to flying a kite at night with any degree of proficiency. I've tried this before and found that the "juniors" tend to drive hotter angles at night, thus driving the boat off course. You spend the next watch getting the boat back on the rhumb line. Very inefficient. My plan is kite during the days and at night with the experienced helmsmen. Douse, and run wing on wing with the "junior" during the night. I should get an added benefit of a few hours of running really deep to boot. Remember those unhappy sailors on that recent Transpac - you don't want to spend all your time untangling head stay wraps and mending the inevitable rips and tears that result.


Honestly, I don't really know what route we'll take yet. I've been researching that. Our first hop will be to Tampa - where we'll play around for the season, then leave the boat somewhere like Naples or something. From there, the idea is the Bahams for the next season - leave the boat - maybe in T&C. Then the BVIs the next season. Any advice you'd give on the best routes, I'll take it!

THANK YOU for the feedback on the kite. That means a lot coming from you. It's honestly low on my list, but I'd love to get one just to learn it. If I do, I will follow your advice. I've done a good deal of WoW in our off-shore races (we were in the non-spin class) and feel very comfortable with it.


----------



## SloopJonB

Smack - spend a few bucks and get a good used chute from Bacon's or one of the others. Sailing under a brightly coloured chute is one of the very best parts of sailing and it doesn't even have to be expensive - a few $hundred will get you a very decent used sail. (Way less than your cell phone steering system I daresay. )

Sailing WoW sucks - it is unnatural and just ASKING for a crash gybe with a moments inattention or getting caught off guard by a quartering sea. It's just about the slowest possible point of sail too - tacking downwind is way better.


----------



## Don L

SloopJonB said:


> Sailing WoW sucks - it is unnatural and just ASKING for a crash gybe with a moments inattention or getting caught off guard by a quartering sea. It's just about the slowest possible point of sail too - tacking downwind is way better.


I agree. WOW is fun for a little while, but all the stress of having to pay so much attention gets old. And this is for a standard rigger boat. On my B&R rigged boat I will do it in a causeway if needed because it is a short time, but if it is going to be more than 5 minutes it is time to drop a sail.

I have read people say they WOW for long periods of time and have always felt they were a little insane.


----------



## Ajax_MD

Oh come on, it's not that stressful. Rig a preventer.
However, I agree. Nothing announces "Next Level" like flying a spinnaker. Everyone can see it. My favorite photos are of my boat under spinnaker.

I paid $150 for a pretty good, used, kite from Bacon Sails, for a 30 foot boat. It was perfect for training my crew, because I'd only be out $150 if they wrapped it around the keel or something.

I can singlehand a symmetric kite, now that I have a tiller pilot.
Doublehand? Fuggetaboutit. My girl and I flew it for 40 miles, getting us home at twice the speed of WoW. We overhauled several less ambitious cruisers on our way up the Bay.

Sorry for being over-enthusiastic, it's so cold here that we literally just had an ice breaker come and clear the river channel yesterday. I feel like sailing was another lifetime ago.


----------



## Don L

BubbleheadMd said:


> Oh come on, it's not that stressful. Rig a preventer.
> .


I have a preventer rigged. I find it only reduces stress a little because you aren't as worried about a crash gybe. But you are still on edge of constant trimming.

And if you have the preventer rigged you are out in the open, so then really isn't a good reason to not just adjust your course and make better speed to start with.

A chute is the bomb and a light weight reacher is probably even better (seems most of the light air I get into I need to reach or higher)


----------



## GeorgeB

Guys, guy, guys, I have to disagree slightly on this. I am advocating the use of a whisker pole - not going DDW. Without a whisker, you are forced to sail 180* AWA to keep pressure in both sails. I agree that is problematic. A whisker pole allows you to sail in the 175-160* AWA range with the security of not accidentally gybing and JAM racers know that those angles produce a lot more VMG than going pole-less at 180*. Smack and I have both have heavy cruisers so at the angles you have to steer under an A-kite (140-165*) usually gives you rotten VMG if your rhumb line happens to be DDW. Yes, a symmetric is the best of all worlds but you need to match the sails to the skill level of the crew. Which in this case means the two Smack Tykes. I don’t think I’d sleep well at night if one of those kids was driving to a course of 170* under a kite. My personal experience is junior drivers do perfectly fine with a whisker at night and tend to do poorly trying to keep a kite under control. If you guys visit the SSS site, you will know that a lot of them douse the kite, drop the main and run double headsails so they can get a good night’s sleep.


----------



## SloopJonB

I doubt very much that I would fly a chute at night if I was cruising. Too hard to keep it trimmed properly unless you had lights on it all the time.


----------



## smackdaddy

If I get a kite, it will be an assym. One of the reasons for this is that with the BR rig, you can't open the main up as much for a good, deep WoW (at least not compared to the other boats I've crewed on). Even so, we will only fly the assym in mellow conditions (when the genny won't stay full) - and definitely not at night.


----------



## ccriders

smackdaddy said:


> If I get a kite, it will be an assym. One of the reasons for this is that with the BR rig, you can't open the main up as much for a good, deep WoW (at least not compared to the other boats I've crewed on). Even so, we will only fly the assym in mellow conditions (when the genny won't stay full) - and definitely not at night.


Have you looked at running with the main down, the genoa poled out and asym flying opposite the genoa? Probably wouldn't have to steer.
John
ps. I've only done this once when visiting in Sweeden. Felt like a freight train compared to WoW.


----------



## Don L

In my mind flying a chute short handed with the main down is asking for a problem if/when the wind picks up.


----------



## smackdaddy

*Here is the next installment of The SmackBoys' Yacht.*

We get new graphics...









...deal with this rat's nest and the non-functioning instruments because of it...









...and go Full-LED on the lighting...









Enjoy!


----------



## chall03

Nice Smack. 

After our rig was done we found all our nav lights were put back incorrectly. If we turned on the deck level Nav lights the anchor light would aldo come on. If we turned on the steamer then the deck level lights came on with the trilight etc etc. Easy to fix, but annoying none the less.

How much was the iMux if you don't mind me asking??? I am pretty keen to go that way as well.


----------



## vtsailguy

Speaking of electrical use, I made this spreadsheet to calculate it, and find out what solar/batteries you need, and how long you'll need to run your engine.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Auv4S5mfstuwdDdRczc3N1M1d3lmQ1M1UG9rNXhrZ3c&usp=sharing

You should be able "make a copy" to edit. Change values in the yellow boxes.


----------



## bristol299bob

nice write up!

BTW I have the same LEDs and had the same fit issue in some of my fixtures. You can take a dremmel to the bulbs and slice off that big plastic cover ... leave a bit of a plastic rim to give you enough leverage to insert the bulb, maybe 1/4 inch. as long as the fixture protects the now exposed guts they will be fine.

the only concern with the exposed guts would be moisture. Mine have been exposed for 3 yrs now and its pretty dang moist in NC.


----------



## SecondWindNC

Love the name, new transom graphics look great!


----------



## smackdaddy

chall03 said:


> Nice Smack.
> 
> After our rig was done we found all our nav lights were put back incorrectly. If we turned on the deck level Nav lights the anchor light would aldo come on. If we turned on the steamer then the deck level lights came on with the trilight etc etc. Easy to fix, but annoying none the less.
> 
> How much was the iMux if you don't mind me asking??? I am pretty keen to go that way as well.


What's maddening is that they charged a total of $1,200 for JUST recommissioning the mast and pulling the wire. THEN they screwed all that up!

The iMux is a wireless transmitter what pushes NMEA/AIS/Seatalk data to a device such as an iPad/iPhone. This way you can have multiple chartplotters on a boat using as many devices as you want. It might work with other non-Apple devices - I don't know. I just got it because we are going to use i-devices on our boat, with the iNavX charting application. It's really pretty incredible:

iMux - The Brookhouse NMEA 0183 Wifi multiplexer

There are other similar devices out there (for AIS, etc.) - but this one had the best all-round capability I could find. In my next write-up, I'll explain how I set everything up, including the AIS. It's a little complicated - but it's awesome.


----------



## smackdaddy

bristol299bob said:


> nice write up!
> 
> BTW I have the same LEDs and had the same fit issue in some of my fixtures. You can take a dremmel to the bulbs and slice off that big plastic cover ... leave a bit of a plastic rim to give you enough leverage to insert the bulb, maybe 1/4 inch. as long as the fixture protects the now exposed guts they will be fine.
> 
> the only concern with the exposed guts would be moisture. Mine have been exposed for 3 yrs now and its pretty dang moist in NC.


Cool! Thanks brist! I'll give that a shot.


----------



## smackdaddy

vtsailguy said:


> Speaking of electrical use, I made this spreadsheet to calculate it, and find out what solar/batteries you need, and how long you'll need to run your engine.
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Auv4S5mfstuwdDdRczc3N1M1d3lmQ1M1UG9rNXhrZ3c&usp=sharing
> 
> You should be able "make a copy" to edit. Change values in the yellow boxes.


Wow VT!!!! Thanks!!!! The copy worked great and I now have it in Drive.

This will be very, very helpful. I understand the basics, but honestly, electrical and diesel work are still black-holes I'm feeling my way through.


----------



## vtsailguy

Glad to hear.

The handy thing is you can add solar panels step by step to see how many it takes to get to zero deficit, i.e. don't need to run engine.

Also, check you have enough battery capacity, as you are not supposed to go below 50%.


----------



## Ajax_MD

Dude,

That rats nest nearly made me cry.
Honestly, if I were nearby, I'd help you tackle that. I'm not Maine Sail, but my work is safe and tidy.


----------



## smackdaddy

BubbleheadMd said:


> Dude,
> 
> That rats nest nearly made me cry.
> Honestly, if I were nearby, I'd help you tackle that. I'm not Maine Sail, but my work is safe and tidy.


Thanks for feeling my pain. Why do we pay these yard guys $80/hour for this crap? It's ridiculous.

I know you'd help if you were around. And I'd buy plenty of beers.


----------



## vtsailguy

BubbleheadMd said:


> Dude,
> 
> That rats nest nearly made me cry.
> Honestly, if I were nearby, I'd help you tackle that. I'm not Maine Sail, but my work is safe and tidy.


Are you near Vermont


----------



## Don L

smackdaddy said:


> Thanks for feeling my pain. Why do we pay these yard guys $80/hour for this crap? It's ridiculous.


I'm never going to pay for the yard guys to do "skilled" work ever again. I've seen what some of them do during the time when no one is willing to pay the yard for work. If they were skilled enough for me to be paying $80/hr they wouldn't be doing such crap 90% of the time.


----------



## pcmm

The yard where I kept my boats didn't even offer boat repairs so we all learned to do this stuff ourselves. None of it is hard, just requires time to read up on and practice. Norms mens fittings are great., but youtube is full of demonstrations that show you how to do it WRONG!! Check put drakeparagon on youtube his rigger al least knows what he's doing and explains things along the way. Smack, I actually looked into that particular hunter last year but never went down to see it. Hope you enjoy!


----------



## smackdaddy

pcmm said:


> The yard where I kept my boats didn't even offer boat repairs so we all learned to do this stuff ourselves. None of it is hard, just requires time to read up on and practice. Norms mens fittings are great., but youtube is full of demonstrations that show you how to do it WRONG!! Check put drakeparagon on youtube his rigger al least knows what he's doing and explains things along the way. Smack, I actually looked into that particular hunter last year but never went down to see it. Hope you enjoy!


Hey PCM - good to have you around dude! I actually watched the DP video on the Norsemans. Good stuff. Even so, I wouldn't do the rigging myself. The way I see it, my time (which I charge a lot for) has to be budgeted. The stuff I need to learn is stuff I need while I'm at sea. I have no desire to learn the details of rigging, or even bottom painting, etc. I need to learn about my boat's systems, engine, navigation, etc. That's stuff I'll have to be self-sufficient at. I can jury rig with the best of them - but I don't need to be an ABYC-Certified Gerbil Masseuse to sail. Just my thinking at this point.

Of course you know I'd say this - but this is the absolute best H40 I found on the market in the 3 years I'd been looking. It's freakin' immaculate. I hit the jackpot. We are definitely enjoying her. And I'd recommend a H40 to anyone who asks.


----------



## smackdaddy

I now have the The Mr. Universe of Navigation Systems: Brookhouse iMux, Standard Horizon GPX2150 w/AIS, and iNavX on the iPads and iPhones. This wireless setup gives me multiple chartplotters on the boat via all the Apple devices (LOTS of backup) - with full Raymarine Instrumentation and AP control (via Seatalk) AND integrated AIS. Stupid cool.























































Is that a pimpin' nav station or what?

Full write-up coming soon. And a HUGE shout-out to Wout Beekhuizen, owner of Brookhouse. He gave me a tremendous amount of help.


----------



## Boredop

I have pretty much the same setup. Very happy with the system as a whole.


----------



## Boredop

I didn't have a nice dry spot for the multiplexer so I put it in its own little enclosure. May have snuck power for it off my N2K backbone.....


----------



## SloopJonB

smackdaddy said:


> Is that a pimpin' nav station or what?


Indeed! If you ever hit anything you will have NO excuse.


----------



## luhtag

After refitting a few sailboats to date including a Gulfstar 50 were are currently living on and making new, I've learned one sure methodology and it is this:

I usually get a cold beer, I sit down in front of the project I am contemplating, and I ask myself 'how can I possibly turn this into the most expensive ordeal imaginable?' In my head I outline the steps needed to do the job then I find ways to make last longer and do myself the most financial damage. 

As an example if I were to look at your water tank that needs a quick patch I would say might as well completely disassemble it, rebuild it entirely, clean it like new, and add all new parts that I can possibly remove. 

I can't tell you how many projects I've tried to just fix and move on. With boats, especially ones I take family offshore in, just fixing it usually leads to complications down the road. Nowadays if something is showing signs of disrepair then I completely rebuild it if possible. Whatever it is. 

The aft stay on our boat has a small crack in the staylock right now. I can't sail her until its fixed. So instead of replacing the stay I am pulling the whole mast, stripping it to bare aluminum, replacing 100% of the rigging including the chainplates, painting everything, all new lights and wiring, new spreaders, halyards, sheaves, antennas, etc...is it going to be painful? Yep. When I am in that next squall is my rig gonna come through with no problems? I would think so. At the very least I can shake my fist at the sky with confidence and yell 'Bligh Me!' 

I'm a stout believer in the Black Box Theory. But that's just me. 

Nice boat. Good Luck.


----------



## glassdad

I am not being disrespectful but am asking. How do you steer and and navigate from outside? I have a GPS on a swing arm visible from the wheel. To plot a course, I either sit outside or sit inside in a very awkward position. I can steer from behind the wheel and still see the GPS. Do you have repeaters at the wheel or go below and check the GPS?


----------



## SloopJonB

glassdad said:


> I am not being disrespectful but am asking. How do you steer and and navigate from outside? I have a GPS on a swing arm visible from the wheel. To plot a course, I either sit outside or sit inside in a very awkward position. I can steer from behind the wheel and still see the GPS. Do you have repeaters at the wheel or go below and check the GPS?


Read the whole thread - he just phones it in.


----------



## SloopJonB

luhtag said:


> After refitting a few sailboats to date including a Gulfstar 50 were are currently living on and making new, I've learned one sure methodology and it is this:
> 
> I usually get a cold beer, I sit down in front of the project I am contemplating, and I ask myself 'how can I possibly turn this into the most expensive ordeal imaginable?' In my head I outline the steps needed to do the job then I find ways to make last longer and do myself the most financial damage.
> 
> As an example if I were to look at your water tank that needs a quick patch I would say might as well completely disassemble it, rebuild it entirely, clean it like new, and add all new parts that I can possibly remove.
> 
> I can't tell you how many projects I've tried to just fix and move on. With boats, especially ones I take family offshore in, just fixing it usually leads to complications down the road. Nowadays if something is showing signs of disrepair then I completely rebuild it if possible. Whatever it is.
> 
> The aft stay on our boat has a small crack in the staylock right now. I can't sail her until its fixed. So instead of replacing the stay I am pulling the whole mast, stripping it to bare aluminum, replacing 100% of the rigging including the chainplates, painting everything, all new lights and wiring, new spreaders, halyards, sheaves, antennas, etc...is it going to be painful? Yep. When I am in that next squall is my rig gonna come through with no problems? I would think so. At the very least I can shake my fist at the sky with confidence and yell 'Bligh Me!'
> 
> I'm a stout believer in the Black Box Theory. But that's just me.
> 
> Nice boat. Good Luck.


That's just the old "As long as we're........., We might as well........ 

I'm pretty OCD about it myself but you sound like you have a much worse case.


----------



## smackdaddy

luhtag said:


> As an example if I were to look at your water tank that needs a quick patch I would say might as well completely disassemble it, rebuild it entirely, clean it like new, and add all new parts that I can possibly remove.


I'm trying an interesting fix first. 3M makes a flexible epoxy coating for potable water environments that is used for sealing the interior of municipal water tanks. I bought some and am going to give that a go.

The tank is in fairly good shape but has quite a bit of pitting. Cutting it out and bringing in a new one would be a freakin' nightmare (no way to get it out without cutting it up or pulling apart the interior of the boat). The sealant should fill/seal all the pits, then protect the rest of the inside of the tank from future corrosion. If I do a good job, it should last another 30 years.

We'll see. I just finished sanding and cleaning the inside of the tank this weekend. Next comes the coating.


----------



## smackdaddy

glassdad said:


> I am not being disrespectful but am asking. How do you steer and and navigate from outside? I have a GPS on a swing arm visible from the wheel. To plot a course, I either sit outside or sit inside in a very awkward position. I can steer from behind the wheel and still see the GPS. Do you have repeaters at the wheel or go below and check the GPS?


Dude, I'm Smackdaddy. You don't need to be respectful.

I have an iPad in a waterproof LifeEdge case - with a mount on the navpod at the helm along with the Raymarine AP control. So I have chartplotter and AP controls right there.

My radar is not yet piped through to the iPad though, it's still only at the nav station. But that's okay for now.

So with this setup, I can drive from the helm with the iPad chartplotter there (also seeing all my Raymarine instruments and AIS on iNavX) - AND, if I needed to, I could put the boat on AP and steer from below with another iPad or iPhone.

In any case, it's a lot of redundancy. I like that.


----------



## jimgo

Smack, is that the WiFi version of it? If so, if you don't mind, what was the ballpark cost? That's pretty cool.


----------



## smackdaddy

jimgo said:


> Smack, is that the WiFi version of it? If so, if you don't mind, what was the ballpark cost? That's pretty cool.


I got the PS2 version so I could have a dedicated GPS. It was $400. Definitely worth it.


----------



## chef2sail

smackdaddy said:


> Dude, I'm Smackdaddy. You don't need to be respectful.
> 
> I have an iPad in a waterproof LifeEdge case - with a mount on the navpod at the helm along with the Raymarine AP control. So I have chartplotter and AP controls right there.
> 
> My radar is not yet piped through to the iPad though, it's still only at the nav station. But that's okay for now.
> 
> So with this setup, I can drive from the helm with the iPad chartplotter there (also seeing all my Raymarine instruments and AIS on iNavX) - AND, if I needed to, I could put the boat on AP and steer from below with another iPad or iPhone.
> 
> In any case, it's a lot of redundancy. I like that.


Is the inavx real time. AIS? I thought Boat Beacon was the only true one.


----------



## smackdaddy

chef2sail said:


> Is the inavx real time. AIS? I thought Boat Beacon was the only true one.


Yes. It receives the AIS data via the Standard Horizon GX2150 through the iMux. Pretty slick.


----------



## MedSailor

Smack, did you make a spinnaker decision yet? If not, I have a suggestion. Get yourself a drifter!

Our boat came with one, and I not only love the sail I consider it emergency equipment and keep it aboard at ALL times. I am also taking it with me when I sell the boat, it is THAT valuable.

A drifter (which you probably already know) is essentially a nylon genoa that you fly free (without hanks) from the bow, like well, a genoa. The advantages of the drifter are numerous:

1: It flys like a genoa, so the learning curve doesn't exist. You already know how you use it and you do inside gybes.

2: It's not so huge that it's uncontrollable on a short handed boat. Don't get me wrong, it's big, full cut and powerful and can pull like a clidesdale, but it's not scary. I've never needed a sock or other exotic equipment to take mine down.

3: In the very lightest of airs, the fact that it is not as big (or heavy) as a fully Asym means it will catch wind when other sails won't.

5: You can go upwind with it! I have flown it at less that 90deg apparent before and this has come in really handy. (see #6)

6: Once, my engine overheated as I was near shore at sunset. There was between 1-2knots of true wind and we were drifting slowly towards shore where the bottom curve was too steep to anchor. Oh crap! We got out the drifter and SAILED our 30,000lb full keeled monster, slightly upwind several hundred yards until the bottom contour allowed us to anchor. That evening, safely at anchor, I fixed the engine and we were on our way. SAFETY EQUIPMENT!

7: You can use it with your genoa (you should really keep that nice tri-radial sail) for a double headsail rig that is mostly self steering, doesn't risk accidental gybes, has the sail area (both sails combined) DDW of a full spinnaker, and can be "reefed" by taking down one, or furling the other, sail. This kind of twin headsail rig can be kept up at night, and sailed (especially with 2 poles) by inexperienced crew without fear of spinnaker catastrophes.

8: It's pretty. It's true, sailing under colored nylon cloth has a value you can't put a price on. When the sail is up, there's a smile on my face.

The pardeys use a drifter and a genoa and talk a lot about the advantages of the setup (which I have seen first hand) in one of their books. I think it was "The Self Sufficient Sailor."

MedSailor

PS I don't sheet my drifter to the end of the main boom. That seems like unnecessary complexity. I just sheet mine like a genoa, but you can, and the prevented main boom will act like a second whisker pole for a double poled twin headsail rig.


----------



## smackdaddy

Great advice Med - thanks.


----------



## MedSailor

smackdaddy said:


> Great advice Med - thanks.


Sure, any time.

The Drifter. Love at 7 miles per hour. 

Another fun thing about the dirfter is that you can still add an asymmetric spinnaker (on a cool furler) to your inventory later if you choose and the drifter remains a useful sail for it's ease of handling, dual headsail use, and it's light wind upwind ability.

Medsailor


----------



## smackdaddy

Here's another installment of "The Smackboys & Their Yacht" where I go over the installation of our wireless nav system with AIS, Magma grill and cover, head issues, LED bulb issues and more...

*The Mr. Universe of Nav Systems!*










Enjoy.


----------



## bobmcgov

MedSailor said:


> Smack, did you make a spinnaker decision yet? If not, I have a suggestion. Get yourself a drifter!
> 
> Our boat came with one, and I not only love the sail I consider it emergency equipment and keep it aboard at ALL times. I am also taking it with me when I sell the boat, it is THAT valuable.
> 
> A drifter (which you probably already know) is essentially a nylon genoa that you fly free (without hanks) from the bow, like well, a genoa. The advantages of the drifter are numerous:
> 
> 1: It flys like a genoa, so the learning curve doesn't exist. You already know how you use it and you do inside gybes.
> 
> 2: It's not so huge that it's uncontrollable on a short handed boat. Don't get me wrong, it's big, full cut and powerful and can pull like a clidesdale, but it's not scary. I've never needed a sock or other exotic equipment to take mine down.
> 
> 3: In the very lightest of airs, the fact that it is not as big (or heavy) as a fully Asym means it will catch wind when other sails won't.
> 
> 5: You can go upwind with it! I have flown it at less that 90deg apparent before and this has come in really handy. (see #6)
> 
> 6: Once, my engine overheated as I was near shore at sunset. There was between 1-2knots of true wind and we were drifting slowly towards shore where the bottom curve was too steep to anchor. Oh crap! We got out the drifter and SAILED our 30,000lb full keeled monster, slightly upwind several hundred yards until the bottom contour allowed us to anchor. That evening, safely at anchor, I fixed the engine and we were on our way. SAFETY EQUIPMENT!
> 
> 7: You can use it with your genoa (you should really keep that nice tri-radial sail) for a double headsail rig that is mostly self steering, doesn't risk accidental gybes, has the sail area (both sails combined) DDW of a full spinnaker, and can be "reefed" by taking down one, or furling the other, sail. This kind of twin headsail rig can be kept up at night, and sailed (especially with 2 poles) by inexperienced crew without fear of spinnaker catastrophes.
> 
> 8: It's pretty. It's true, sailing under colored nylon cloth has a value you can't put a price on. When the sail is up, there's a smile on my face.
> 
> The pardeys use a drifter and a genoa and talk a lot about the advantages of the setup (which I have seen first hand) in one of their books. I think it was "The Self Sufficient Sailor."
> 
> MedSailor
> 
> PS I don't sheet my drifter to the end of the main boom. That seems like unnecessary complexity. I just sheet mine like a genoa, but you can, and the prevented main boom will act like a second whisker pole for a double poled twin headsail rig.


Best. Gear. Ever.

Honestly. Our nylon genoa/drifter/Code0 was the best addition we made to the SJ21 -- added a full knot to our average speed to and from Catalina, got the boat moving in early morning zephyrs, & stabilized the motion & created enuf apparent wind to power up the main. An absolute gem of a sail. Somerset in Upstate NY sells them pretty cheap, Smack. Three secrets to good performance: give some thought to how you will tension the luff; while a certain degree of sag is inevitable & even beneficial, your pointing will improve if you either get a purchase on the halyard or a 2:1 downhaul on the tack. Two: light air sheets. Just big enuf to handle, no more. Three: a slightly positive luff round built into the sail. Yes, you normally incorporate a hollow in a jib luff, and you won't have quite the draft control or pointing angle with a positive round that you get with hollow one. But that's not what the drifter is about -- it's about getting the boat _moving_. A positive round creates a 'knuckle' in the middle of the luff that really stabilizes the sail in light winds and swell -- wide groove, fewer collapses.


----------



## benesailor

Somerset sails; you mean these guys? Hmm.....

Mainsail from Hell - Somerset Sails - Cruisers & Sailing Forums


----------



## bobmcgov

benesailor said:


> Somerset sails; you mean these guys? Hmm.....
> 
> Mainsail from Hell - Somerset Sails - Cruisers & Sailing Forums


Yeah, I saw that post when I tried to Google Somerset. You can also find a number of positive reviews. *shrug* I won't vouch for their quality or service -- merely that they make a lot of drifters & sell them at very attractive prices. Maybe someone who bought one will tell us one way or another. It's also fairly easy to make a good drifter yourself, tho Smack's boat is likely outside most homebuilders' size range.


----------



## MedSailor

bobmcgov said:


> It's also fairly easy to make a good drifter yourself, tho Smack's boat is likely outside most homebuilders' size range.


Actually, sailrite has kits for do it yourself drifters and such. Very little sewing required and the seams are glued with some kind of double sided tape.

Now that I just said it could be done though, I did speak with someone who made one himself and it looked awesome BUT he said it was a real pain lining up all the seams and not having them bunch up AND he used to be a sailmaker himself.... so.... YMMV.

Remember also that when it comes to nylon the quality of the specific weave and fabric is not as crucial as it is with dacron, nor is the shape as crucial. It's one of the reasons that a sail lasts so long in nylon. And since things aren't as crucial, I would think you could consider bargain lofts like Lee Sails, (whom I would never use for dacron sails) for spinnakers and drifters.

Precision sails out of BC are another option with sails being made at a good loft, but at nearly Lee Sails prices.

MedSailor


----------



## MedSailor

smackdaddy said:


> *The Mr. Universe of Nav Systems!*
> 
> Enjoy.


Nice post. I'm still a paper chart and hand GPS kind of guy, but it's nice to see what can be done with all this technology.

I would advise you to gauard against any single point of failure with your setup. A friend of mine had to withdraw from the big ocean race he'd been training for because his chartplotter, GPS and AIS (all integrated together) all crapped out at the same time. He didn't have radar, and while he did have hand GPS capability and paper charts, he was in the fog in a heavily trafficked shipping lane, and there were about 100 race boats nearby.

Primarily the shipping lane part and the fog caused him to abandon the race as he couldn't see them, (nor they him) with the loss of AIS and he wasn't confident he could stay outside the lanes, but also out of the shallows, without his chartplotter.

If you integrate everything, including your radar, all together, consider what would happen if a single point of failure takes it all out in a similar situation. Sometimes having a couple separate screens, with separate switches and wire runs is a good thing.

MedSailor


----------



## smackdaddy

MedSailor said:


> Nice post. I'm still a paper chart and hand GPS kind of guy, but it's nice to see what can be done with all this technology.
> 
> I would advise you to gauard against any single point of failure with your setup. A friend of mine had to withdraw from the big ocean race he'd been training for because his chartplotter, GPS and AIS (all integrated together) all crapped out at the same time. He didn't have radar, and while he did have hand GPS capability and paper charts, he was in the fog in a heavily trafficked shipping lane, and there were about 100 race boats nearby.
> 
> Primarily the shipping lane part and the fog caused him to abandon the race as he couldn't see them, (nor they him) with the loss of AIS and he wasn't confident he could stay outside the lanes, but also out of the shallows, without his chartplotter.
> 
> If you integrate everything, including your radar, all together, consider what would happen if a single point of failure takes it all out in a similar situation. Sometimes having a couple separate screens, with separate switches and wire runs is a good thing.
> 
> MedSailor


Great point Med. But that's actually what I like about this setup. It has redundancy all the way through (barring an EMP). Here's what I mean:

1. AIS - The VHF has its own AIS display - with proximity alarms, etc. So, if the 3-4 iDevice chartplotters I have on board fail, I still have AIS via the radio.

2. Each of the iDevices has GPS. So, if the GPS puck or the iMux fails, I still have full chartplotter functionality with each of those devices separate from the wireless system. All I lose is AIS overlay and instrumentation feed. No problem.

3. Add paper charts into this mix - and it's a pretty reliable system with lots of fail-safes. Again, yes, it can all conceivably go down in a lighting strike - but because it's not all wired together, you get some added protection I think.

The weak-link right now is the GPS puck. I've had the GPS signal (pumped through the iMux) drop a couple of times. This means that the VHF loses the coords - and, hence, the AIS functionality. I'm going to keep an eye on this.

If it becomes a problem, the next thing I'll try is the GX2200 VHF, which has an integrated GPS antenna - solving this issue. We'll see how it goes.

Your point, though, is right on.


----------



## bobmcgov

MedSailor said:


> Remember also that when it comes to nylon the quality of the specific weave and fabric is not as crucial as it is with dacron, nor is the shape as crucial. It's one of the reasons that a sail lasts so long in nylon. And since things aren't as crucial, I would think you could consider bargain lofts like Lee Sails, (whom I would never use for dacron sails) for spinnakers and drifters.


Yep. Nylon is so stretchy, esp. on a bias, that building in an ideal foil shape is not so critical as with Dacron or lammys. Let the sail figure out what shape it wants to be.:laugher A nylon upwind sail is going to stretch and balloon and get hard seams anyhow. I like to focus on luff tension & car placement with these sails, since those seem to be the biggies on our drifter for controlling power and sailing angles. We still get up to 55 degrees true (45 apparent) with crosscut nylon. You think a Hunter 40 might need something radial? A 145% would end up being ~700sqft, right? (Pity there's such a gap between 1.5oz nylon and where Dacron usefully picks up, around 4oz.) Might also want to add a continuous line furler for such a beast, eventually. Don't need one to experiment. We douse ours by blowing the tack shackle & just armhauling it down the companionway. Not sure if there's an upper size limit to that.


----------



## chall03

Love the Walmart trashcan. Nice work Smack.


----------



## smackdaddy

I have some battery questions. These things seem fairly straightforward, but when I start looking into them, the advice is all over the place and gets really technical really fast. So, to start, here's my setup:

*-Xantrex TruCharge 20a charger*

*-2X Interstate 27M (House)
-1X Interstate 29DC (Start)

-Blue Sea Battery Switch (Off/1/2/Both)*
*-200 amp GM alternator with some kind of Blue Sea contraption described by the previous owner as follows:*



> I put it on because it allows the engine to recharge the batteries a lot faster as well as the blue sea part back by the batteries since it uses relay instead of diodes it doesn't suffer the vlotage drop that diodes do so it allows the batteries to reach a higher charger faster.


I see the Blue Sea thing in the battery compartment, but I have no idea how it works.

+++++++++++++++

So here are my questions:

1. What is the proper use of the battery switch? I've read that you should generally leave it set to "Both" when running the engine so that both batteries are charged...BUT switch it to one or the other when sailing (without the motor). I have confirmed with a voltmeter that only the battery that the switch is set to gets charge from the alternator.

2. Along the lines of above, should you generally alternate between batteries when drawing for house use? In other words, not rely on one battery too much to keep them both equal?

3. What is a scenario that you use the "Both" setting for (apart from emergency use to start the motor, etc.)? Does it hurt anything to be drawing from both - even if it's inadvertent?

4. The Xantrex seems to charge both house batteries all the time (via shorepower), irrespective of the battery switch. Is this correct?

5. Does anyone have any advice on charging the batteries via the generator/Xantrex while underway, versus the engine/alternator? I'm just curious about the pros/cons (e.g. - does it save fuel, does it charge too slowly, will it damage something, etc.)

6. Does the Blue Sea relay thing mean I don't have to worry about diodes (e.g. - accidentally turning the key off when the engine is running versus the kill pull)?


----------



## mitiempo

The Blue Sea contraption is probably an ACR - shown below. If that is what it is and it is wired correctly the switch has nothing to do with charging.



Proper wiring is a fairly large wire to the positive of each bank and a smaller wire to ground. Along with this the alternator output should go direct to the house bank positive with a fuse near the batteries - not the switch or starter. If this is true the battery switch can be a "use" switch and not a charge control switch. This makes things easier and there is no chance of damage - even turning to "off" will not do any damage.

I think it unlikely that you have a 200 amp alternator. I don't think GM actually makes one. It would require a very upgraded belt system if you do have one.

Use the house bank (the larger one) for anything except engine starting. The single battery for engine starting only.

The "both" position, if the above wiring is in place, is only ever necessary if the ACR should fail - I have never seen one fail so not very likely, very reliable item. If the start battery is unable to start the engine switch to the other bank - not both.

Does it hurt to be using both? You could end up unable to start the engine - the start battery is best kept charged and not in use until the engine is needed.

The Xantrex charger should charge irrespective of any switch position - even "off".

Charging with the engine is very inefficient unless you are using the engine to move. A full charge is not likely unless you are motoring for 6 to 8 hours anyway. The generator is also inefficient. If necessary the generator could be run to power the Xantrex charger but it is still very inefficient and it will still take many hours (6 - 8) to charge fully. Best solution is to install solar panels and a good charge controller. Any engine or generator charging after the batteries reach 80 - 85% SOC is a waste. That extra 15 - 20% can be put into the batteries quietly and a lot less expensively.

If the Blue Sea ACR - if that is what it is - is installed correctly you don't have to worry about diode damage.

More investigation is required. A picture of the Blue Sea item would help. You should trace the wiring to and from it and post the results.


----------



## smackdaddy

Thanks Miti. I'll get photos when I'm on the boat next.

Just to be clear, I have 3 batteries (2 house and 1 starter). The starter seems to be isolated from the switch (and house bank), so I think we're okay there.

As for the alternator, I'm just going by what the PO told me. He did say that the single belt would likely be a problem under a full charging load. So far it's been okay.

If I do have the ACR - does that mean that the engine key does not affect the diodes like a typical setup?


----------



## mitiempo

smackdaddy said:


> Thanks Miti. I'll get photos when I'm on the boat next.
> 
> Just to be clear, I have 3 batteries (2 house and 1 starter). The starter seems to be isolated from the switch (and house bank), so I think we're okay there.
> 
> Yes, but 2 banks.
> 
> As for the alternator, I'm just going by what the PO told me. He did say that the single belt would likely be a problem under a full charging load. So far it's been okay.
> 
> A normal single belt will only turn an alternator up to 100 amps - and that is a struggle with short belt life usually and alignment is critical.
> 
> If I do have the ACR - does that mean that the engine key does not affect the diodes like a typical setup?


Yes, if it is wired correctly.


----------



## MedSailor

smackdaddy said:


> I see the Blue Sea thing in the battery compartment, but I have no idea how it works.


The blue sea thing is most likely an external charge regulator for your alternator. A very good piece of kit. As you probably know an alternator has a "dumb charger" and always supplies 13.8V to the batteries. They "take" what they need. This voltage is high enough to force in some juice, but not so high as to cook the batteries or cook off too much electrolyte.

Now your trucharge 20 (a GREAT carger BTW) charges with a 4 step voltage plan. In the beginning the voltage is higher which "pushes" more energy into the battery, but would cook it if it continued. It drops the voltage in steps, allowing for optimal and quick charging. An external alternator regulator basically takes the power source of your alternator and turns it into a "smart" charger.

So here are my questions:



smackdaddy said:


> 1. What is the proper use of the battery switch? I've read that you should generally leave it set to "Both" when running the engine so that both batteries are charged...BUT switch it to one or the other when sailing (without the motor). I have confirmed with a voltmeter that only the battery that the switch is set to gets charge from the alternator.


The best use of it is to install the blue seas battery combiner that everyone else is recommending and leave the switch alone. That way the house bank is always feeding the house, the starter is fed by the starting battery, and the switch, set to "both" is only used as an emergency parallel. Careful switching the unit with the engine on, during that split second when you switch from one to the other your alternator may not have a place to deposit it's charge and you can blow the diodes in your alternator.



smackdaddy said:


> 2. Along the lines of above, should you generally alternate between batteries when drawing for house use? In other words, not rely on one battery too much to keep them both equal?


No, you should try and leave that switch alone as much as possible. The starting battery is never supposed to see any house loads so that it can stay available to start your engine once you've drained the house setup. If you switch back and fourth, you could end up with 2 batteries that are dead and not be able to start your motor.



smackdaddy said:


> 3. What is a scenario that you use the "Both" setting for (apart from emergency use to start the motor, etc.)? Does it hurt anything to be drawing from both - even if it's inadvertent?


Doesn't hurt anything, but you risk running them all dry and not being able to start your motor. Also, when combined into one bank, they will all share voltage and you will only have one voltage for the whole bank. This will trick the charger(s) into thinking the entire bank is fully charged (and up to voltage) when only the smaller of the 2 banks is charged, leaving you unable to fully charge your house bank.



smackdaddy said:


> 4. The Xantrex seems to charge both house batteries all the time (via shorepower), irrespective of the battery switch. Is this correct?


Yes.



smackdaddy said:


> 5. Does anyone have any advice on charging the batteries via the generator/Xantrex while underway, versus the engine/alternator? I'm just curious about the pros/cons (e.g. - does it save fuel, does it charge too slowly, will it damage something, etc.)


Depends what you mean by "underway". If sailing, you can use your generator and the Xantrex will not know the difference between the generator's supplied power and shore power. It'll work fine. If you mean use the genset with the Xantrex while the engine is running, that is not a good idea. Your alternator will supply 13.8 volts (or more/less if it's a smart externally regulated alternator) and it will confuse the Xantrex charger into thinking that the batteries are actually full, when they are not, they're only charging. You won't hurt the Xantrex, but it'll sit there idle and you'll be wasting genset fuel.



smackdaddy said:


> 6. Does the Blue Sea relay thing mean I don't have to worry about diodes (e.g. - accidentally turning the key off when the engine is running versus the kill pull)?


[/QUOTE]
Good question. Not sure.

MedSailor


----------



## smackdaddy

MedSailor said:


> No, you should try and leave that switch alone as much as possible. The starting battery is never supposed to see any house loads so that it can stay available to start your engine once you've drained the house setup. If you switch back and fourth, you could end up with 2 batteries that are dead and not be able to start your motor.


Thanks Med.

I've obviously not been clear on the switch/battery combo. The switch is only for the 2 house batteries (select 1 or 2 or both). The starter battery is separate from this. So when I'm talking about this switch, it's only for the house bank.

There is another separate switch to combine house and starter batteries, but it is always off - and I understand it to be used ONLY in an emergency start situation.

As for how the house switch affects charge from the alternator, I tested the incoming charge while the engine was running. The starter battery was receiving charge and the one house battery that was selected by the switch was receiving charge - but the unselected house battery was not.


----------



## Jeff_H

Steve,

If the house are roughly equal size-equal age batteries, then I would run with the house bank switched to "both" pretty much continuously. This means equal wear and tear on both batteries, and shallower discharges on each resulting in a longer battery life for both. The other thing to watch are the phantom losses like the power that goes to radios and clocks 24/7. These are often tied into one battery so that they are drawing that battery down more than the other. Even though they both charge fully when being charged, I rotate my batteries every year to equalize that wear and tear. 

Jeff


----------



## smackdaddy

Jeff_H said:


> Steve,
> 
> If the house are roughly equal size-equal age batteries, then I would run with the house bank switched to "both" pretty much continuously. This means equal wear and tear on both batteries, and shallower discharges on each resulting in a longer battery life for both. The other thing to watch are the phantom losses like the power that goes to radios and clocks 24/7. These are often tied into one battery so that they are drawing that battery down more than the other. Even though they both charge fully when being charged, I rotate my batteries every year to equalize that wear and tear.
> 
> Jeff


Jeff - great advice thanks. The house batteries are identical - so I'll do that. I'll also do a test on the alternator charge with the BOTH setting to make sure I'm getting charge to both batteries with this setting.


----------



## MedSailor

smackdaddy said:


> Jeff - great advice thanks. The house batteries are identical - so I'll do that. I'll also do a test on the alternator charge with the BOTH setting to make sure I'm getting charge to both batteries with this setting.


Plus 1 on what Jeff_H suggests. Always run it in the "both" position There's really not much advantage to having an isolation switch between house batteries within a bank, except I guess, for ease of isolation if one of them dies on you.

MedSailor


----------



## mitiempo

MedSailor said:


> The blue sea thing is most likely an external charge regulator for your alternator. A very good piece of kit. As you probably know an alternator has a "dumb charger" and always supplies 13.8V to the batteries. They "take" what they need. This voltage is high enough to force in some juice, but not so high as to cook the batteries or cook off too much electrolyte.
> 
> MedSailor


Blue Seas does not produce an external regulator for an alternator.

Alternators with internal (dumb) regulators have been set at 14.4 volts for a few decades. It has been a very long time since they were set at 13.8 volts.


----------



## mitiempo

MedSailor said:


> The best use of it is to install the blue seas battery combiner that everyone else is recommending and leave the switch alone. That way the house bank is always feeding the house, the starter is fed by the starting battery, and the switch, set to "both" is only used as an emergency parallel. Careful switching the unit with the engine on, during that split second when you switch from one to the other your alternator may not have a place to deposit it's charge and you can blow the diodes in your alternator.
> MedSailor


The Blue Seas battery combiner - the ACR that I posted about earlier - installed between the battery banks with the alternator output going directly to the house bank eliminates any damage if the switch is turned to any position - including the off position. That is one of the best reasons for its purchase. The switch becomes a control over which batteries are being used but has nothing to do with charging.

Emergency parallel is not a good idea. This can in some circumstances leave you with the inability to start the engine as the current remaining in a house bank after time at anchor is low. When combined with a dead start battery some of what is left in the house bank will try to equalize with the start battery and can leave both banks too low for an engine start.

If the start battery is too low for a start switch to the house bank without combining the banks.

In the above wiring scenario the only time I would switch to "both" is if the ACR had failed to enable charging all batteries. This is very unlikely though.


----------



## smackdaddy

As for starter battery emergencies, I bought one of these:

WEST MARINE
600A Jump-Starter with Air Compressor and 12V Power Supply









So I've got some pretty good backup there.


----------



## MedSailor

smackdaddy said:


> As for starter battery emergencies, I bought one of these:
> 
> WEST MARINE
> 600A Jump-Starter with Air Compressor and 12V Power Supply
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So I've got some pretty good backup there.


Try it before you need it, and while you can still take it back to west marine. These things vary massively in their actual ability to start an engine. Most of them (especially the cheap ones with the compressors) will say in the fine print that they won't actually start a car with a fully dead battery.

I had a cheap one once and it wouldn't start my 4cylender 1.2liter puny engine. I bought a more commercial grade one and it has started everything I have tried it on, including prolonged cranking on a 4cylender diesel genset that we were troubleshooting.

1700 Peak-Amp 12-Volt Jump Starter at National Tool Warehouse









MedSailor


----------



## smackdaddy

If it fails me, I'll come back here and trash West Marine all over the place.

(PS - I should have bought the same unit at Walmart for $30 less in the first place. Will we never learn?)


----------



## Don L

smackdaddy said:


> As for starter battery emergencies, I bought one of these:
> 
> WEST MARINE
> 600A Jump-Starter with Air Compressor and 12V Power Supply
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So I've got some pretty good backup there.


You really went out and got one one these "in case" for your cruising boat? I never would have considered buying one and if I thought there was a reasonable need would have been upgrading my boats battery system so it had a VERY low chance of needing it.

Do you carry one in your car? If the answer is no because you can call for someone to give you a jump start the same answer applies to boats.


----------



## Minnesail

Don0190 said:


> You really went out and got one one these "in case" for your cruising boat? I never would have considered buying one and if I thought there was a reasonable need would have been upgrading my boats battery system so it had a VERY low chance of needing it.
> 
> Do you carry one in your car? If the answer is no because you can call for someone to give you a jump start the same answer applies to boats.


The place I've chartered now keeps one of these on every boat. It seems like cheap insurance in case some nitwit like me forgets to charge the battery and leaves the fridge on for three days.

And I do carry one in my car. Again, cheap insurance. Compressor, area light, portable 12v source, and an inverter all in one package.


----------



## smackdaddy

Yeah - I keep one on my boat, Don. As Minne says, I think it's a pretty smart, affordable, multi-function backup kit. If I have battery problems 300 miles out (where Seatow is rare), I can at least get the engine started. I like that.

You don't have to put one on your boat. I don't mind at all.


----------



## Don L

Minnesail said:


> The place I've chartered now keeps one of these on every boat. It seems like cheap insurance in case some nitwit like me forgets to charge the battery and leaves the fridge on for three days.


I don't think charter companies trying to "out think" nitwits is a good example.

I think a separate start makes sense, but a jumper kit seems crazy. Do you take that home after each sail to charge it and then bring it back each time?

BTW - if I'm 300 miles out, in trouble, waited till my batteries are dead, then wanted to start the engine; its time to rethink things.

BBTW - it doesn't bother me if people want to have one of those jumper thingies on THEIR boat, no matter how crazy it seems to me.


----------



## smackdaddy

Don0190 said:


> I don't think charter companies trying to "out think" nitwits is a good example.
> 
> I think a separate start makes sense, but a jumper kit seems crazy. Do you take that home after each sail to charge it and then bring it back each time?
> 
> BTW - if I'm 300 miles out, in trouble, waited till my batteries are dead, then wanted to start the engine; its time to rethink things.


I keep it on the boat and check/charge it when I'm there. If you want to carry a spare, separate battery for a separate start go for it. I don't. This thing gives me many more options.

As for re-thinking things, I guess you're right. Of course, strange things happen out there - _usually ones you never would have thought of_. Crazy is thinking you've always got it all under control then not having spares when you need them.


----------



## Don L

In the end it looks to be about 2 6-packs of space. One must have priorities!


----------



## GeorgeB

Smack, can you clarify a couple of things? You have two 8D batteries in two banks and you carry that jump starter battery when the two banks totally discharge? Can you tell me why you don’t want a dedicated start battery again? I’m assuming that you are running the stock “Motorola” alternator?


----------



## MedSailor

smackdaddy said:


> I keep it on the boat and check/charge it when I'm there. If you want to carry a spare, separate battery for a separate start go for it. I don't. This thing gives me many more options.


I didn't realize this was the case! If it's true I URGE YOU to do a quick dockside test to make sure that jump thingy will start your engine. Just disconnect or isolate out your batteries and connect the jump thingy only and see if you can start your engine with it. Preferably on as cold of a day as you may expect to start it. If you can, your plan is a good one. If you can't (which I strongly suspect) then you are carrying around a false sense of security.

MedSailor


----------



## smackdaddy

GeorgeB said:


> Smack, can you clarify a couple of things? You have two 8D batteries in two banks and you carry that jump starter battery when the two banks totally discharge? Can you tell me why you don't want a dedicated start battery again? I'm assuming that you are running the stock "Motorola" alternator?


I have TWO Interstate SRM-27 batteries for house power that are wired into the Blue Sea switch (1/2/Both/Off).

Then I have ONE Interstate 29DC battery for starting that is independent of the house bank and Blue Sea switch. It is a dedicated start battery.

All of these are chargeable via the alternator and the charging relay thingy I'm not yet familiar with.

There is _another_ switch that will combine the house batteries with the starter battery if needed.

The jumper thingy is for helping the starter battery crank in an emergency (I'd likely try this before combining house and starter batteries).

Med - I'll do a test with the jumper thingy only to see if it will start the engine by itself.

(I'll get pics and videos next time I'm on the boat.)


----------



## GeorgeB

Smack, you have an "interesting" set-up. A pair of group 27's for the house? I am not familiar with a group 29 battery. What is the HP and no of cylinders of your engine? The group 24 I have is over-kill for my 35HP Universal starting battery. With such a small house bank, I am guesing you have a 40 Amp alternator. You will want to go through your electical system and do an "as is" drawing. What type of electrical acumen do you have? I suspect that you have a major electrical upgrade ahead of you. Do an energy budget. You might not have enough amps in your system for an overnight passage without over taxing you system. I'll try to dig up my drawing and show you what is going on in my boat.


----------



## smackdaddy

Electrical acumen? Me? Heh-heh.

This is the way the boat came out of the box. So, I'm working through everything now trying to figure out what's what. I can do the basics of electrical work - but I don't know anything about the design or mathematics of a system. So your advice, drawings, and help is welcome. Just judging by the above responses, it's a world with a lot of different opinions.

The PO was apparently an electrically accumened dude who added the charging relay, and what he assured me is a 200a alternator, and the Xantrex.

To your specific questions:



GeorgeB said:


> What is the HP and no of cylinders of your engine? The group 24 I have is over-kill for my 35HP Universal starting battery.


Yanmar 4JHE (4-cyl, 40-horse)



GeorgeB said:


> With such a small house bank, I am guesing you have a 40 Amp alternator.


Again - Previous Dude says 200a GM alternator that he put in himself.



GeorgeB said:


> I suspect that you have a major electrical upgrade ahead of you. Do an energy budget. You might not have enough amps in your system for an overnight passage without over taxing you system. I'll try to dig up my drawing and show you what is going on in my boat.


Major upgrade for the system or the batteries? I've already converted all fixtures to LED (except nav lights). But I am concerned about the draw of the radar, etc. Like you, my main concern is that the house power is solid.


----------



## GeorgeB

A 200 Amp alternator is going to be some beast. Is that what the surveyor wrote in his report? It would have at least double or perhaps a serpentine belt. I’ve never seen alternators bigger than 140A in a sailboat. One of the problems with an alternator so big is you are robbing close to a quarter of your engine’s output before you even put it in gear. Are you sure you have Group 27’s in your house bank? They can only accept 90 Amps each so the alternator of that size would fry them on a regular basis. Double check this. I have an externally regulated 120A alternator tied to a 360A house bank – and that is way overkill. I want to go down to a 90A alternator to improve my fuel consumption.

Xantrex? Is this an external regulator, monitor, charger, or what?

I did a couple of quick back of the envelope calculations to come up with about 150 Amp hours of consumption per 24 hours. Your biggest energy “hogs” are the reefer, chart plotter and auto helm. With only 90 Amps to play with (1/2 discharge of total house bank). You would have to be running your engine several times a day for several hours if you wanted to do your Harvest 300 race.

Do you have a separate switch to turn on the start battery? I suspect that your start is wired to one of the posts of your selector switch and the house to the other. Do you have an echo charger or a battery combiner? Start tracing your wiring and draw a diagram. And get a label maker (like Maine Sail’s) We’ll make a marine electrician out of you yet! (actually one of the skills you should master before you start cruising)


----------



## MedSailor

smackdaddy said:


> Electrical acumen? Me? Heh-heh.
> ...
> 
> Just judging by the above responses, it's a world with a lot of different opinions.


Well, yes and no. I only have one opinion to give, but I think I've given you at least two, probably three, so far based on what I "thought" you had on your boat.



smackdaddy said:


> I keep it on the boat and check/charge it when I'm there. If you want to carry a spare, separate battery for a separate start go for it.* I don't.* This thing gives me many more options.





smackdaddy said:


> Then I have ONE Interstate 29DC battery for starting that is independent of the house bank and Blue Sea switch. *It is a dedicated start battery.*


Don't worry, we'll get you figured out.  For now, I highly suggest the following book. To my mind it is hands down the best intro to intermediate boat wiring book out there. It's also the only one that I know of that really spends a lot of time on helping the reader really understand the concepts behind all the wiring and calculations.










MedSailor


----------



## smackdaddy

Cool. Thanks Med.


----------



## smackdaddy

GeorgeB said:


> A 200 Amp alternator is going to be some beast. Is that what the surveyor wrote in his report? It would have at least double or perhaps a serpentine belt. I've never seen alternators bigger than 140A in a sailboat. One of the problems with an alternator so big is you are robbing close to a quarter of your engine's output before you even put it in gear. Are you sure you have Group 27's in your house bank? They can only accept 90 Amps each so the alternator of that size would fry them on a regular basis. Double check this. I have an externally regulated 120A alternator tied to a 360A house bank - and that is way overkill. I want to go down to a 90A alternator to improve my fuel consumption.
> 
> Xantrex? Is this an external regulator, monitor, charger, or what?
> 
> I did a couple of quick back of the envelope calculations to come up with about 150 Amp hours of consumption per 24 hours. Your biggest energy "hogs" are the reefer, chart plotter and auto helm. With only 90 Amps to play with (1/2 discharge of total house bank). You would have to be running your engine several times a day for several hours if you wanted to do your Harvest 300 race.
> 
> Do you have a separate switch to turn on the start battery? I suspect that your start is wired to one of the posts of your selector switch and the house to the other. Do you have an echo charger or a battery combiner? Start tracing your wiring and draw a diagram. And get a label maker (like Maine Sail's) We'll make a marine electrician out of you yet! (actually one of the skills you should master before you start cruising)


The surveyor listed the alternator as "reported by owner". As for the house bank, they are Interstate SRM-27s.

As for figuring the calcs for usage, how do you find/caluculate the draw for each item? I have an Energy Budget spreadsheet, but don't know where to find the numbers for each item. In looking at the WM Advisor:

Sizing Your House Battery Bank | West Marine

...it generally puts my 40' boat in the 400ah house bank range (I assume this means 2x 200ah batteries?). So your 150 sounds like it's in the ballpark - and it seems I'm woefully underpowered.

I'll try to track down more detail on your other questions when I get back to the boat.


----------



## mitiempo

A good affordable house bank would be four 6 volt golf cart batteries in series/parallel. This would give you ab out 440 AH total and half that usable.

2 group 27 batteries for a boat like yours with your cruising plans and usage is a joke.


----------



## mitiempo

GeorgeB said:


> A 200 Amp alternator is going to be some beast. Is that what the surveyor wrote in his report? It would have at least double or perhaps a serpentine belt. I've never seen alternators bigger than 140A in a sailboat. One of the problems with an alternator so big is you are robbing close to a quarter of your engine's output before you even put it in gear. Are you sure you have Group 27's in your house bank? They can only accept 90 Amps each so the alternator of that size would fry them on a regular basis. Double check this. I have an externally regulated 120A alternator tied to a 360A house bank - and that is way overkill. I want to go down to a 90A alternator to improve my fuel consumption.


Smack's 2 group 27 batteries can accept about 25% of their capacity - about 45 amps - maximum.

An alternator, no matter how large, will not fry batteries. The batteries determine the current they will accept, not the alternator or charger, for a given voltage. The only way the batteries will try to accept more current is if the voltage is raised.

Smack

Somebody fed you a line about the alternator. Best you find out exactly what you have - which alternator (which may be labeled as to output), whether it has an external regulator or not, the wiring from the alternator and charger and where it goes, and exactly what other items you have - the Blue Seas item for one, a picture would sure help.


----------



## smackdaddy

Thanks Miti. This is exactly why I ask these questions. Do you have any recommendations on the type/brand of golf cart batteries?

I'll get the pictures soon.


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## Minnesail

MedSailor said:


> I URGE YOU to do a quick dockside test to make sure that jump thingy will start your engine. Just disconnect or isolate out your batteries and connect the jump thingy only and see if you can start your engine with it. Preferably on as cold of a day as you may expect to start it. If you can, your plan is a good one. If you can't (which I strongly suspect) then you are carrying around a false sense of security.


I realize the conversation has moved on, so I may be beating a dead horse here, but why do you suspect that the charger/starter wouldn't be able to start his engine?

Up here in the frigid north we routinely use these sorts of things to start full-size car engines in the winter, that's what they're made for. I don't know **** about marine diesels, but it just seems that a 40 hp boat engine should be even easier to start than a 160 hp car engine.


----------



## bobmcgov

MedSailor said:


> Try it before you need it, and while you can still take it back to west marine. These things vary massively in their actual ability to start an engine. Most of them (especially the cheap ones with the compressors) will say in the fine print that they won't actually start a car with a fully dead battery.
> 
> I had a cheap one once and it wouldn't start my 4cylender 1.2liter puny engine. I bought a more commercial grade one and it has started everything I have tried it on, including prolonged cranking on a 4cylender diesel genset that we were troubleshooting.
> 
> 1700 Peak-Amp 12-Volt Jump Starter at National Tool Warehouse
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MedSailor


Very useful things to have aboard, and they hold a charge for a long time. An example of how they can patch problems: My van broke its serpentine belt many miles out of town. No alternator=no spark=no engine. Apparently, the ALT idiot light was burned out, & the plugs had been running for some unknown time off the main battery. When that pooped, I was stranded. Clamped a jump pack to the terminals, bungeed it under the hood, and drove the rest of the way into town on it. It still had enuf juice to start the van after a new belt was purchased and installed. (And might I say, one problem with serpentine belts is you can't use pantyhose to McGyver them. Not that I wear pantyhose. Not in summer -- too hot.)

Before we added a trolling motor & Group27 to the SJ21, a jump pack supplied all our 12V electrical needs with aplomb. They can in a pinch run your chartplotter, nav lights, and VHF.


----------



## MedSailor

Someone definitely is wrong about that alternator. On my parent's 50ft power boat they have an alternator that I would say is in the 200A range and it's size is between that of a volleyball and a basketball.

Lots of stuff was wrong on my spec sheets when I bought my Formosa. The biggest disappointment was that our 160gallons of water was actually more like 70.  Lessons learned.

As for an electrical budget, I'm glad you asked. That is what you need to do next. It sure sounds like your battery bank is small and anemic and your energy needs are significant. Calculating your needs is pretty easy. Since draw is measured on devices in amps, and batteries give us their capacity in amp hours it makes it really easy. You can ignore voltage and the need for complex math.

Basically, it's the expected usage of each device x hours used per day = amp hour drain per day. 

For example:
-- If your fridge uses 10A and it is on 50% of the time (12 hours) 10A x 12hours = 120 amp hours taken out of the battery per day. 
--If all your interior LED lights that you use on average use 1.5amps and you use them for 4 hours each day, then 4 x1.5 = 6AH
-- If all your cool new instruments use 3A and you use them for 6 hours, that's 18AH.

Don Casey's electrical book that I recommended has a table that gives good estimates for an electrical budget. Nigel Caulder's mechanical and electrical book (The Bible) has one as well I'm sure. Below is the one from the Don Casey book:









I'm still really not clear on exactly what you have, and how it's wired, so my recommendation for now is this: Make damn sure you have a good and separate source to start your engine. It looks to me like running your house batteries flat is a very likely possibility and if you don't have a separate, isolated start battery, or a good jump pack that you've tested you could be SOL.

Tracing wires is one thing, but to be ABSOLUTELY SURE that your separate starting battery is isolated, put a volt meter on it after you've been at anchor for a couple hours and make sure it's voltage is different (higher) than the house bank.

MedSailor


----------



## MedSailor

Minnesail said:


> I realize the conversation has moved on, so I may be beating a dead horse here, but why do you suspect that the charger/starter wouldn't be able to start his engine?
> 
> Up here in the frigid north we routinely use these sorts of things to start full-size car engines in the winter, that's what they're made for. I don't know **** about marine diesels, but it just seems that a 40 hp boat engine should be even easier to start than a 160 hp car engine.


There are jump packs and there are jump packs. The walmart special, or Costco offerings, if you read the fine print, state planely that they won't start your car if the battery is totally flat, only if it is partially discharged. I've seen this myself when we couldn't start my mazda with it's puny engine.

Diesel engines are MUCH harder to crank and start than gas ones. You have to rotate the crank against the full compression of the pistons. The speed at which you crank is also directly related to the ability to get enough compression for that first explosion and thus, start. If you crank slowly, you might not start. So yes, a 50HP diesel will require a much larger starter, and battery to start than a 160hp gas engine.

The jump pack that Smack linked to is 300amps peak. That's not much. A cheap group 24 car starting battery (the smallest size) is 600 by comparison. Want to try and start a good sized diesel engine, on a cool Texas morning, with a battery that is 1/2 the size of the smallest car battery? I don't.

Also there is the issue of quality and storage. It claims 300A, but it looks like a WalMart special, so maybe they're stretching their numbers. Also, unless you charged it the day before, it may only have 80%-90% charge when you use it. The pack I linked to, is one I've seen on AAA tow truck driver's rigs (the same company produces another unit that is grey and industrial looking but the internals are the same). It's rated for 1,600amps cranking, so more than 5 times the power of the one Smack linked to.

I've started and cranked and cranked on 4 cylinder marine diesels using jump packs, so I have nothing against them, and think that they are actually a good piece of kit, but like any kit, you get what you pay for. And with any safety kit, bad safety kit is often worse than none at all.

MedSailor

PS Maybe safety gear is a stretch. Smack's not likely going to die if his engine won't start after a night at anchor. Hopefully he'll have enough juice left to send out a SailNet MAYDAY and get someone to tow him in. That's about all the risk there is.


----------



## Minnesail

MedSailor said:


> There are jump packs and there are jump packs. The walmart special, or Costco offerings, if you read the fine print, state planely that they won't start your car if the battery is totally flat, only if it is partially discharged. I've seen this myself when we couldn't start my mazda with it's puny engine.


My apologies, I read back and saw that you posted about not being able to start your 4-cylinder with one. You are right of course, you do need to have a quality jump pack, not the one on sale in an endcap at a discount store.



MedSailor said:


> Diesel engines are MUCH harder to crank and start than gas ones. You have to rotate the crank against the full compression of the pistons. The speed at which you crank is also directly related to the ability to get enough compression for that first explosion and thus, start. If you crank slowly, you might not start. So yes, a 50HP diesel will require a much larger starter, and battery to start than a 160hp gas engine.


I hadn't thought about that, but it makes sense. A diesel needs the compression to fire, so it has higher compression and therefore requires a beefier battery to run the starter.



MedSailor said:


> they are actually a good piece of kit, but like any kit, you get what you pay for. And with any safety kit, bad safety kit is often worse than none at all.


Now there are words of wisdom. A false sense of security is a dangerous thing.


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## smackdaddy

Okay - here are some photos of my electrical setup. I didn't have a chance to trace each of the wires/cables - I'll get to that next. For now, hopefully this will clarify things a bit in terms of how things are generally set up.

Let's start with the battery compartment under the aft berth. The various switches are...

To starboard:










Shown here from left-to-right are:

-1/2/All switch for the two "House" bank batteries.
-The slightly mislabeled "AC Source" (not House) switch for generator or shorepower (I'll fix that)
-The "Combine Batteries" switch for combining the house and start batteries.

To port:










-On/Off switch for the start battery
-Fuse (I think for the starter but I don't know)
-Generator start swtich

And the monster under the bed...










-The two green-topped house batteries, and the black start battery

The starter side components and wiring...










-You can see the positives coming off the start battery and running to the switch and the BlueSea ACR

Close-up of components...










-What I guess is a buss for the alternator connection to the left (not sure)?
-The BlueSea ACR - distributing the flow to each battery
-The backside of the start battery switch and the fuse

Closer-upper of components...










-The backside of the start battery switch
-That buss(?) just visible to the right

Now to the starboard house bank side...










-The blue thing is the AC Source switch
-I don't know what that buss with the green wires is yet - I assume it's the Combine Batteries switch wiring
-The two Group 27s that came with the boat

Again - as for alternator charging, when I tested everything with a voltmeter with the engine running, the starter battery and the house battery that the switch was set to was receiving charge. I haven't done the test with the switch set to "All" yet to see if the switch is directing the charge to the house battery - or if there is a fault in the ACR or cable going to the battery that wasn't receiving charge.

Next, the alternator. I couldn't see any markings on it and didn't have time to pull it and check - but if size is any indicator of amps, this is a very normal size alternator, not the volleyball size mentioned above for a 200amp-er.



















And finally to the charger at the nav table...










The backside wiring...










And the panel...










Note: Unlike the alternator charge being dependent on the house switch, this indicates that both house batteries are always being charged and monitored regardless of switch setting. A good thing, I think.

When I get a chance, I'll start tracing wires and working out a diagram, but this is as far as I could get on this trip. There was, after all, sailing to be done.


----------



## SloopJonB

The Herreshoff's must be rolling in their graves.


----------



## smackdaddy

SloopJonB said:


> The Herreshoff's must be rolling in their graves.


Let 'em roll.


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## capecodda

Herreshoff called fiberglass frozen snot, so my guess is he's rolling his eyes at most of us!

Smack,
It actually doesn't look that bad (or lets just say I've owned boats that were worse when I got them). The good news is that everything looks like its accessible and relatively straight forward. Without too much effort the wiring could be replaced or cleaned up, neatly routed and tied down, etc.


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## mitiempo

Smack

That isn't a bus to the left in this picture - it is a shunt for an ammeter.


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## mitiempo

So the Blue Seas item is an ACR. That is good. 

The house batteries should not be separate. They should be permanently combined to create a larger bank. The switch used to select them is not necessary. All you need is the one switch - 1/2/both/off.

Were it my boat I would install 2 separate simple on/off switches, one for start and one for house. Much simpler. A third switch would be added for starting off the house bank if it is ever necessary. Labeled properly nothing could be simpler.

Trace the alternator output wire and see where it goes. With the ACR it should go to the house bank positive directly, not to a switch.

With your cruising plane I would change the house batteries to golf carts, 4 if you have room.


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## smackdaddy

Well, I replaced my Standard Horizon GX2150 with the GX2200. It was a bit of a bullet to bite - but I was having trouble with the GPS connection dropping off. The way it was set up is that the iMux has a GPS puck connected via a PS2 port. This GPS signal was then sent through to the GX2150 which would then generate the AIS readout and send that back through to the iMux. Then all that's pumped out to the iPad chartplotter.

As I said, the GPS signal would drop from the GX2150 and we'd lose AIS and get an alarm from the VHF. This happened too many times for me to fully trust it. So I bought the GX2200 which has GPS integrated into the radio. Now it's rock solid. I'll keep the 2150 as a backup.

I also wired the RAM mic in the cockpit - which also has the AIS readout on the mic. Pretty cool.

I also cleaned the raw water strainers and got started on epoxying the interior of the water tank. I'll do a write up on that soon.

BTW - miti, what specific golf cart batteries would you recommend? I don't have a lot of space in my compartment so I need to stay as compact as possible.


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## aeventyr60

Costco usually has a deal on golf cart batteries.....Trojans get pricey...had to get them this time as they were the only game in town (singapore)

You can also find white plastic boxes that fit the GC batteries, make your install easier.


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## mitiempo

smackdaddy said:


> BTW - miti, what specific golf cart batteries would you recommend? I don't have a lot of space in my compartment so I need to stay as compact as possible.


I think the GC batteries made by Deka/East Penn, Crown, or US battery are good alternatives to the more expensive Trojans. I think from Mainesail's posts that the ones at Sams Club under the Duracell brand are very good - same as West Marine at half the price and made by Deka. Maine has better knowledge of what is available in the US. Private message him for the latest info.

All GC batteries I have seen are the same size - 10.3 in x 7.11 in and about 11 in high depending on terminals for the T-105 Trojan.


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## Shinook

smackdaddy said:


> As I said, the GPS signal would drop from the GX2150 and we'd lose AIS and get an alarm from the VHF. This happened too many times for me to fully trust it. So I bought the GX2200 which has GPS integrated into the radio. Now it's rock solid. I'll keep the 2150 as a backup.
> possible.


Do you have any issue getting a GPS signal from within the cabin on the GX2200?

I've been thinking about installing one on our boat, but it's so new that I haven't heard much info on how reliable the signal is. I like the idea of having it all integrated.


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## smackdaddy

Shinook said:


> Do you have any issue getting a GPS signal from within the cabin on the GX2200?
> 
> I've been thinking about installing one on our boat, but it's so new that I haven't heard much info on how reliable the signal is. I like the idea of having it all integrated.


Not yet. It acquired the fix pretty quickly and was solid while I had it on. That said, I've not gone out yet (just installed it). I'll report back here on how it works as we go.


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## tommays

The handheld version of this radio is incredible in both boot speed and gets GPS reception in my basement 

Nothing else in my collection works so well under adverse conditions


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## tommays

It was funny because the radio has SO MANY features I had to sit in my basement office and try them all to display the info that I found best and I realized it was getting reception


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## Stegs

SmackDaddy
I have a Legend 37 and I heard that the aluminum tanks used on our type boats have a tendency to corrode, leak, and need replacement. In the picture you showed, the 4 squares don't look original. Also it looks like the tank might have been painted. (Possibly to stop a leak from the outside)
Stegs
Great Lakes, Salt Free, No Sharks!


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## smackdaddy

Here's the write up on the water tank repair - which seems to be doing very well, thank you.

*Water Tank Repair (And More!)*

From here:










To here:










Also swapped out the running lights with LEDs for $120. Dropped the draw CONSIDERABLY!










Enjoy!


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## smackdaddy

Well, we were at the boat Saturday/Sunday - but only rain and very little wind. Bummer.

So it was project time (which sucks - but nice to get stuff done).

I'm happy to report that the water tank repair was successful. Not a drop leaked - and the taste and smell is fine. I still run it through a Britta filter at the faucet - but it's all good.

Also, it had been over a month since we'd been on the _Dawn Treader_ due to traveling (we usually get down a couple of times a month). Turns out the starter battery was low. It turned the engine over a couple of times, then started clicking. It was time to test out this baby:



smackdaddy said:


> As for starter battery emergencies, I bought one of these:
> 
> WEST MARINE
> 600A Jump-Starter with Air Compressor and 12V Power Supply
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So I've got some pretty good backup there.


I hooked it in and she started right up. Awesome.

Next up...I'm adding solar panels and lazy jacks. Stay tuned.


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## RTB

I've considered one of those jump starters. So, they do work. Good to know.

Yep, it's been a bit damp around here lately. Sure beats a hurricane though. I'm happy to be in Texas again (so far).

Good to see you back on the boat, attacking that to-do list! It never ends, BTW. 

Just curious as to why you are installing solar, unless you plan on extended cruising in the near future? We left Texas without solar, and didn't add them until Brunswick Ga. after our first cruise in the Bahamas. We did have a Honda EU 2000i companion generator though (which you should have even with solar, for those cloudy days). Maybe you already have a genset on the boat?

Ralph
Adult pool | sailing away with R & B


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## MedSailor

smackdaddy said:


> Also, it had been over a month since we'd been on the _Dawn Treader_ due to traveling (we usually get down a couple of times a month). Turns out the starter battery was low. It turned the engine over a couple of times, then started clicking. It was time to test out this baby:
> 
> I hooked it in and she started right up. Awesome.


Awesome! I was worried that the 600A wouldn't be enough to start a 4cyl diesel. If your starter only just started clicking then you batteries were very very low but not totally dead. It's possible the 600A might not be up to starting things if the battery is dead flat, but usually that doesn't happen while you're out and about.

Good to know that your gear will work when you need it. Now don't forget to periodically charge the charger!

MedSailor


----------



## smackdaddy

Ralph, a few things are driving my thinking on this (which could very well be wrong):

1. I've got a relatively small space for batteries. They are situated under the aft, centerline bed. There is not much width and not much depth. So I can't get big 200ah 4Ds under there (not even 4 6v as some have suggested). No way. So I'm going to have to stick with the "standard size" batteries - which limits me to about 130ah from what I've seen.

2. I've got a couple of energy hogs that I want to be able to use underway: radar and fridge.

3. I hate running the motor. And though I have a generator as well - I only have a 40gal fuel tank.

So, with all the above, it seemed to make sense to supplement with solar. If I've entered all the info correctly into the energy budget spreadsheet, I should be able to get by fine with 130ah.


----------



## mitiempo

I agree solar makes sense. If you are not marina hopping a full charge won't be accomplished without many hours of engine or generator time. Without solar you only have between 50 and 85% state of charge as useable capacity - about 45 AH. With solar to top up the bank that jumps to 65 AH.

130 AH is pitifully small for a house bank on any boat cruising with refrigeration. I would look for a way to at least double it in addition to the solar.


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## RTB

smackdaddy said:


> If I've entered all the info correctly into the energy budget spreadsheet, I should be able to get by fine with 130ah.


In reality....no way IMO. I have 3 of these Interstate SRM-27 Deep Cycle Marine & RV Battery 600 CCA for my house bank. It's not enough, running the fridge 24/7. Have you got a monitor, like a Xantrex LinkLite, or similar? While at the dock, fully charge your batteries. Once the sun goes down, turn your charger off (leaving the fridge on), and take a look at your voltage in the morning. I'll bet your voltage will be down to 12V (or less).

You need to add a bigger house bank. With 4 T-105's Trojan T-105 Golf Cart Deep Cycle 225 AH Batteries, you'll have 450 AH. Find a place to put them. With a 40' boat, surely you can find a spot. If it was me, I'd spend the money on batteries, before adding solar. Also, add a good battery monitor if you don't have one. You've got to know exactly where you are with your power.

If you are day sailing in the bay, you really don't need to run radar where you are. Leave the fridge off, and throw a bag or two of ice in the box. If you are overnighting, the solar ain't gonna help you anyway.

BTW, if you do add solar, I've had good luck with the Blue Sky 3024i. Of course, if you want to Cadillac....go with an Outback controller.

It really can get confusing trying to set up a boat. For me, I try to spend my money on the most important things first, and keep adding by priority. Just trying to help here. I've learned a few lessons over the past two years.

Ralph
New solar | sailing away with R & B


----------



## smackdaddy

RTB said:


> In reality....no way IMO. I have 3 of these Interstate SRM-27 Deep Cycle Marine & RV Battery 600 CCA for my house bank. It's not enough, running the fridge 24/7. Have you got a monitor, like a Xantrex LinkLite, or similar? While at the dock, fully charge your batteries. Once the sun goes down, turn your charger off (leaving the fridge on), and take a look at your voltage in the morning. I'll bet your voltage will be down to 12V (or less).
> 
> You need to add a bigger house bank. With 4 T-105's Trojan T-105 Golf Cart Deep Cycle 225 AH Batteries, you'll have 450 AH. Find a place to put them. With a 40' boat, surely you can find a spot. If it was me, I'd spend the money on batteries, before adding solar. Also, add a good battery monitor if you don't have one. You've got to know exactly where you are with your power.
> 
> If you are day sailing in the bay, you really don't need to run radar where you are. Leave the fridge off, and throw a bag or two of ice in the box. If you are overnighting, the solar ain't gonna help you anyway.
> 
> BTW, if you do add solar, I've had good luck with the Blue Sky 3024i. Of course, if you want to Cadillac....go with an Outback controller.
> 
> It really can get confusing trying to set up a boat. For me, I try to spend my money on the most important things first, and keep adding by priority. Just trying to help here. I've learned a few lessons over the past two years.
> 
> Ralph
> New solar | sailing away with R & B


This is great feedback. Thanks Ralph. And yes, it IS confusing. As noted previously I currently have two of the same SRM-27 batteries you have as my house bank.

As these are rated at 96ah each, the way I understand it is that this gives me a total of 192ah when combined in parallel (of which you should try to use only around 60%-70% before a recharge). Again, this is where the confusion sets in for me - but that's the way I understand it.

When I mentioned 130ah above, that was for a single battery. So, combined in the same 2-battery config I have now, it would be a total of 260ah (if I understand all this correctly).

I will be installing 3 x 100 watt panels (same type you have). And, according to numbers I've been able to find, assuming 5 hours of contribution/day, they would give back ~125ah?

There are so many variables in all this stuff (especially for someone with only a very basic understanding of it) that it's really hard to know how to make the right decisions.

The bottom line is that I want to be able to NOT stay in marinas - and be able to run the fridge and radar as needed while underway. So, maybe you're right and I just need to throw batteries at it - I was just trying to minimize.

In any case, this is why I'm happy to throw out my very uninformed viewpoints. It's how I learn*.

Thanks again.

(PS - *Before I started this exercise, I didn't even know what an amp-hour was. So it's all good.)


----------



## RTB

smackdaddy said:


> The bottom line is that I want to be able to NOT stay in marinas - and be able to run the fridge and radar as needed while underway. So, maybe you're right and I just need to throw batteries at it - I was just trying to minimize.


Hey, I just re-read this whole thread so I know what has already been addressed. You are pretty much where I was 2 1/2 years ago.

So, to simplify things a little -

You are going to install 300 Watts of solar. The thing is, your two group 27's are going to be charged very quickly, but why waste all that free power from the panels? You need a bigger tank to put all that extra juice into. You'll need it once the sun goes down. You also have a lot of other toys that we don't have (like radar, autopilot, AIS, etc.) If I need a bigger bank, you do too.

So, whether you add the solar or a bigger house bank now doesn't really matter. You'll probably end up doing both anyway. We only have 100 Watts of solar right now. I'm sitting at 14.2 volts (acceptance charge on the Blue Sky). But, I'll turn on the charger (from shore power, or generator if anchored out) before bed time, to replace the 10 or 12 amps we'll be down after sunset. More on cloudy days. I want to be fully charged with my small bank when I hit the bunk. The less the dip between charges, the better for your batteries. I try not to go below about 70%.

Hang out at an anchorage for a couple of weeks, or on a mooring in Boot Key Harbor for three months. You'll see exactly what you need to be self-sufficient and avoid those marinas. I'm just saying that adding solar isn't going to solve your problems without adding to the house bank.

Underway, with plenty of solar, it will still depend on your heading and where the sun is in relation to the boat. The mast may be shadowing the panels, or you may be heeled away from the sun. Honestly, we find ourselves motoring or motor sailing much of the time. We also run our generator plenty. In the end, you just do what you need to do. The more bases you have covered, the cheaper you can get by.

Ralph


----------



## smackdaddy

RTB said:


> You are going to install 300 Watts of solar. The thing is, your two group 27's are going to be charged very quickly, but why waste all that free power from the panels? You need a bigger tank to put all that extra juice into. You'll need it once the sun goes down. You also have a lot of other toys that we don't have (like radar, autopilot, AIS, etc.) If I need a bigger bank, you do too.


Ah, I've been thinking about it incorrectly then. I figured the solar would basically keep the 27's topped off...which would mean that the heavier overnight usage would start fresh - then come back up with the lighter daytime usage. But I see what you mean about those "tanks" being too small to handle that overnight anyway.

So it sounds like I need to figure out how to get some golf cart batteries aboard (as Miti and others have said forever now - I'm just starting to get it).

Maybe if I rip out those center drawers I might be able to find the room.

In any case, I'm happy to have the solar. I really do want to be out and about as much as possible.


----------



## MedSailor

It doesn't always have to be golf carts. If you don't have the height for them there are other options. Trojan and Dyno make REAL deep cycle batteries in any size you want, including G27. They even list plate thickness in their specs so there's no chance of buying a crappy starting battery masquarading as a deep cycle. In my formosa there wasn't enough height for golf carts so I bought a bunch of good quality G29s.

Dyno Battery - Premium Quality Battery Manufacturing - Made in the USA

MedSailor


----------



## smackdaddy

MedSailor said:


> It doesn't always have to be golf carts. If you don't have the height for them there are other options. Trojan and Dyno make REAL deep cycle batteries in any size you want, including G27. They even list plate thickness in their specs so there's no chance of buying a crappy starting battery masquarading as a deep cycle. In my formosa there wasn't enough height for golf carts so I bought a bunch of good quality G29s.
> 
> Dyno Battery - Premium Quality Battery Manufacturing - Made in the USA
> 
> MedSailor


Okay - then here's another question - would it make sense to just add two more of the 27s I currently have? If I understand it correctly, that would give me just under 400ah (across the 4 batteries) and I wouldn't have to start from scratch.

I thought you'd either have to do the 4 golf cart battery thing (to essentially create 2 x 12v sources like I have now) - OR - 2 big 12v batteries.


----------



## Minnesail

Two Group 27 batteries.

You have the same battery setup on your 40' boat that I have on my 22' boat


----------



## smackdaddy

Minnesail said:


> Two Group 27 batteries.
> 
> You have the same battery setup on your 40' boat that I have on my 22' boat


Oh boy, NOW I'm jealous. Heh-heh.


----------



## MedSailor

smackdaddy said:


> Okay - then here's another question - would it make sense to just add two more of the 27s I currently have? If I understand it correctly, that would give me just under 400ah (across the 4 batteries) and I wouldn't have to start from scratch.
> 
> I thought you'd either have to do the 4 golf cart battery thing (to essentially create 2 x 12v sources like I have now) - OR - 2 big 12v batteries.


If your G27 batteries are crap quality (they don't actually have an AH rating for example) then I'd throw them out and start over with whatever fits in your battery space. If they're not crap quality, then get 2 more and sail on.

On the 6v golf cart or 12v batteries, here's a visual that is simplifying things but may help. The golf cart batteries have high capacity, but they need to be installed in wired pairs in order to work. You can imagine a golf cart battery as a 8D battery (you've seen those right? They're really big) that has been cut in half. It takes both halves for it to work and be added to the bank, and both halves together take up a lot of space but have a lot of capacity.

FYI, just to rub it in, I have 3 8D batteries as the house bank on the new boat. That's enough to run a sauna heater! 

MedSailor


----------



## smackdaddy

MedSailor said:


> If your G27 batteries are crap quality (they don't actually have an AH rating for example) then I'd throw them out and start over with whatever fits in your battery space. If they're not crap quality, then get 2 more and sail on.
> 
> On the 6v golf cart or 12v batteries, here's a visual that is simplifying things but may help. The golf cart batteries have high capacity, but they need to be installed in wired pairs in order to work. You can imagine a golf cart battery as a 8D battery (you've seen those right? They're really big) that has been cut in half. It takes both halves for it to work and be added to the bank, and both halves together take up a lot of space but have a lot of capacity.
> 
> FYI, just to rub it in, I have 3 8D batteries as the house bank on the new boat. That's enough to run a sauna heater!
> 
> MedSailor


Yeah, I've seen those 8Ds. Those are insane. You win.

And the golf-cart explanation makes perfect sense. I'd have to go that way over the 4D/8D form factor to have any chance of making stuff fit.

I'm not sure whether the Interstate SRM-27s are "crap". They are rated at 96ah - where the one you linked to above was rated at 100ah, so capacity seems comparable.

So, if I'm understanding it correctly, parallel wiring another two of those SRM-27s into the current bank would get me up to almost 400ah total which is roughly where I need to be.


----------



## Minnesail

smackdaddy said:


> Oh boy, NOW I'm jealous. Heh-heh.


You'll beat me on solar though. I'm in the process of installing a system and I'm trying to figure out how big I can go. Pretty sure I can't fit 300 watts on a 22' boat and still have room left for sailing!

What sort of controller are you going to go with? I've been looking at the Genasun boost controller. I need to charge at 24 volts, so that limits me a bit.


----------



## RTB

smackdaddy said:


> would it make sense to just add two more of the 27s I currently have? If I understand it correctly, that would give me just under 400ah (across the 4 batteries) and I wouldn't have to start from scratch.


I'm sure others will chime in, but you really shouldn't mix old with new batteries for starters. If/when one of the older batteries starts to die, it will drag the others down.

Second, although the Interstate batteries say "deep cycle", they aren't true deep cycles like the golf cart batteries. I'm just repeating what I've read here and there, so don't quote me. :laugher I will say mine have come back after I let them get down to 11.6 volts once, so they seem like pretty good batteries.

I'll just say that I've met a lot of cruisers using the 4 golf cart batteries, and are satisfied. That's the way I'm going before we head out again. That and adding another 100 Watt panel. Let me say this - jacking around with batteries is about as much fun as mowing the yard....or moving....or getting a prostate exam....but you really need to take care of this.

*Don't forget -*You can go with what you have now. Just be prepared to run the engine or generator a lot. You really don't need the boat to be perfect to cruise, but if you are working, and have money to throw at it now, do it. Keep in mind that the clock starts ticking once you install those new batteries. If it will be a year or two before you want to head out, you might wait. Just don't let it stop you from dropping those dock lines. Plenty of boat owners in the Kemah area that are still dreaming of a trip to the Bahamas or BVI's. Excuse...still getting the boat ready.

Ralph


----------



## MedSailor

RTB said:


> I'm sure others will chime in, but you really shouldn't mix old with new batteries for starters. If/when one of the older batteries starts to die, it will drag the others down.
> 
> Second, although the Interstate batteries say "deep cycle", they aren't true deep cycles like the golf cart batteries. I'm just repeating what I've read here and there, so don't quote me. :laugher I will say mine have come back after I let them get down to 11.6 volts once, so they seem like pretty good batteries.
> 
> Ralph


I agree with Ralph on principle, but don't let perfect be the enemy of good here. The rationale behind mixing old and new batteries is that basically they will only work as well as the worst one. So, if your old ones only have 80% of their life left in them, the new ones will act like they only have 80% of their life in them as well. This can be a problem if your current batteries are on their last legs, and you want to add really nice expensive ones to the mix. You won't get full value out of the new expensive ones you add.

That's not really a problem if your current batteries aren't super old and the new ones you're adding are fairly cheap, which Interstates are. I've used golf carts on the wooden boat, and interstates on the formosa as well as Dynos later. My advice would be to add 2 more interstates as you're still learning, and figuring everything out. They'll give you pretty close to the 400AH you want and they'll serve you well. Once you've got your system up and running and have used it for a while, then spring for a new set of whatever you want based on your experience with the 4 interstates.

MedSailor


----------



## smackdaddy

Thanks fellas. Seriously. Great feedback.

I just replaced one of the Interstates several months ago (I had been running with the switch set to that single battery for a long time and ran it down using the radar for the first time - the other wasn't being used). So at least half the bank is new - and the other seems to be in good shape. So, I think I'll try adding two more interstates and see what that gets me. It's definitely the cheapest option right now.

Last question - I suppose I just wire these new batteries off the existing ones in parallel and they'll work with the current switch configuration (1/2/All)?


----------



## ccriders

Put your old batteries in parallel (+ to + & - to -)on 1 and the new also in parallel on 2. Only combine them with both when charging on the engine and only if you have to in an emergency for starting the engine. Wiring them this way negates the new/old battery issue leaving you with two 200 amp hour banks. Next comes the charger which should be a smart charger that can send the charging flow to either bank at the rate it needs for recharging.
The biggest problem with this set up is it can lead to operator error and dead batteries, but if you can keep the regime for switching between banks straight then it gives you two independent house banks each capable of running the boat for 24 hours (given your load calculations are correct.) 
Also, get Charlie Wing's "Boatowner's Electrical Handbook". It is very well written and will help you become expert.
John
ps. Be careful about where you put really big batteries. You could bust a gut struggling with these beasts.


----------



## Minnesail

ccriders said:


> ps. Be careful about where you put really big batteries. You could bust a gut struggling with these beasts.


I used the boom vang to lift mine out of the bilge. Slick.


----------



## ccriders

Minnesail said:


> I used the boom vang to lift mine out of the bilge. Slick.


Yeah, it's nice when you can do that.
John


----------



## mitiempo

Smack

A few points to correct some of the above posts.

300 watts of solar based on 5 hours of sun will give you just over 100 AH - not 125 as you posted.

Best not to use the battery bank below 50% state of charge or you will be buying new batteries often.

Your current 260 AH bank of 2 batteries will give you 130 AH usable only if you are at a dock with shorepower to charge as the boat is set up now. If away from the dock you will not charge them fully unless you motor for about 8 hours. The last 15% or so of charge current takes that long as the resistance in the battery rises and they take less current. There is no magic way around this with any lead acid battery. For this reason most cruisers away from the dock for a long time use to 50% and charge to 85% of battery capacity with engine or generator. The last 15% is put in with either solar or a wind gen. It is important to charge to full fairly often - not doing this will cause sulfation and is probably the most frequent reason for a battery's death.

This is where solar comes in and it cannot be beat for its noiseless, maintenance free charging. If you keep your usage down enough you may just get by without running the engine very often with 300 watts of solar and a good MPPT controller.

I agree you should increase the battery bank. Like you posted the least expensive way is to double what you now have. The best option if you can find room is 4 golf carts in series/parallel. The 12 volt batteries posted about are only deep cycle in comparison to their starting batteries - nowhere even close to a golf cart. Trojan t-105's for example can handle at least twice the number of cycles as any 12 volt Trojan. Any battery that is a true deep cycle does not have a CCA rating by the way as it is not applicable. 

And however you increase your battery bank wire the as one bank on one side of the switch - splitting them is less efficient and the batteries will not have as long a service life if split.


----------



## ianjoub

smackdaddy said:


>


Buy some spray battery terminal protectant. Use it like it is going out of style.


----------



## ianjoub

Another note, you can put batteries anywhere. Only small gauge wire is needed to connect (relatively speaking, compared to say a starter wire). You surely can find room for several more batteries throughout the boat.


----------



## clip68

I am not sure if everyone has them or not, but I had a lot of luck with Batteries+

-Chris


----------



## mitiempo

ianjoub said:


> Another note, you can put batteries anywhere. Only small gauge wire is needed to connect (relatively speaking, compared to say a starter wire). You surely can find room for several more batteries throughout the boat.


I always use the same size wire to connect batteries to each other as for the starter run. This assumes they are close together. If farther apart even larger wire should be used. The smallest wire I use for starting and interconnects is 1/0.

This way batteries get an even charge and no wire gets hot. I do not know a marine electrician who does this any differently.


----------



## ianjoub

mitiempo said:


> I always use the same size wire to connect batteries to each other as for the starter run. This assumes they are close together. If farther apart even larger wire should be used. The smallest wire I use for starting and interconnects is 1/0.
> 
> This way batteries get an even charge and no wire gets hot. I do not know a marine electrician who does this any differently.


Though you may do it, it is unnecessary. There is a very low amperage draw on house batteries both when charging and discharging. All the wire between them does is keep balance.


----------



## ianjoub

And to be clear, I am not talking about using speaker wire.....


----------



## ccriders

Is that photo in #229 your boat? If so, you have lots of room for a better house bank. What is that box with 1,2,3 on it? Maybe it can come out and you could put four golf cart batteries in a row (along the center line?). 
Re my post about the 1,2,both arrangement. That was only to address the combination of new and old batteries. One big house bank appears to be the best approach and the one I would take with all new batteries just before setting off for the sunrise. 
More rain coming this weekend, so you should be able to complete your entire "To Do" list, no?
Are you doing the Harvest Moon Regatta this year on your boat?
John


----------



## smackdaddy

ccriders said:


> Is that photo in #229 your boat? If so, you have lots of room for a better house bank. What is that box with 1,2,3 on it? Maybe it can come out and you could put four golf cart batteries in a row (along the center line?).
> Re my post about the 1,2,both arrangement. That was only to address the combination of new and old batteries. One big house bank appears to be the best approach and the one I would take with all new batteries just before setting off for the sunrise.
> More rain coming this weekend, so you should be able to complete your entire "To Do" list, no?
> Are you doing the Harvest Moon Regatta this year on your boat?
> John


Yeah, pulling out that drawer/box is the plan. Then I suppose I'll mix the advice above and just add the new batteries into the existing wiring mix. This means I'll have two house batteries on the "1" setting, two on the "2" setting, then be able to combine all 4 house batteries using the "All" setthing...keeping the start battery completely separate on its own switch as it is now.

As for the HMR, unfortunately we're not quite ready for that race. The boat is not quite up to ISAF OSR standards (though we're getting really close) - and we need a couple of intermediate runs as skipper/crew to prepare. I also still need to get to a SAS seminar. So, we'll likely do a couple of Freeport runs to shake everything down before we start overnighting.


----------



## mitiempo

ianjoub said:


> Though you may do it, it is unnecessary. There is a very low amperage draw on house batteries both when charging and discharging. All the wire between them does is keep balance.


You do it your way, I will do it the proper way. the way a professional does it.


----------



## ianjoub

mitiempo said:


> You do it your way, I will do it the proper way. the way a professional does it.


Yes, bigger I always better. In fact, just yesterday, I used a 6" long by 3/4" lag screw in my wall to hold up a 5" x 7" picture frame.


----------



## ianjoub

mitiempo said:


> You do it your way, I will do it the proper way. the way a professional does it.


Yes, the way a professional does it:


----------



## smackdaddy

ianjoub said:


> Yes, the way a professional does it:


Something tells me Miti's work is much, much neater than that.


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## RTB

That looks like really bad decisions made by 25 years worth of previous owners. I think all of us with older boats have to deal with similar crap. Smack, pick up Nigel Calders Amazon.com: Boatowner's Mechanical and Electrical Manual: How to Maintain, Repair, and Improve Your Boat's Essential Systems eBook: Nigel Calder: [email protected]@[email protected]@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/[email protected]@[email protected]@61x-JWzuKCL

Actually, you just might want his Cruising Handbook. The best book in my library.

Ralph


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## smackdaddy

Actually Ralph, that was the handiwork of South Texas Yacht Services after they replaced my standing rigging and re-wired all my mast fixtures while the stick was down (Story Here). My radar still isn't working!

PS - Done on Calder's book. Thanks for the recommendation.


----------



## mitiempo

ianjoub said:


> Yes, the way a professional does it:


A professional marine electrician hasn't been on that boat.

I spend a lot of time sorting out problems caused by people who cheap out on wire, connectors, heat shrink and planning or who just do not know any better. Then several items do not work or work intermittently, or engines are slow to start or do not start at all. I do not nor do I know a marine electrician that would use wire between batteries much if any smaller than the start cabling.

Here are a couple of better examples of how it should be done.


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## RTB

Dirty bastiges! I wonder who they contracted that work out to? I haven't read your link yet, but am about to. They got about $8K from me before we left Kemah, but I have no complaints about their work (almost). The only fubar was the prep on the new Foss Foam rudder. The bottom paint was gone on the rudder by the time we hit New Orleans. Probably due to not removing the mold release on the new fiberglass. Needless to say...divers have been bitching about my rudder for two years. 

Ralph


----------



## smackdaddy

Okay, so here is my next installment...the Rat's Nest Radar:

If you recall, this was the "state of repair" of my mast wiring in my bilge after the pros at the yard finished with it after replacing my standing rigging:










And, you'll recall that after this fine example of expertise, none of the instruments worked - nor did the radar. Well, we got the instruments squared away after running down a couple of wiring issues, etc. But the radar was still whacked. It would power up, go into standby, then react to the X-Mit button - but would provide no image.

To track down the above wiring issues, I'd had a very cool marine electrician out on the boat and we'd unwrapped the unholy mess to reveal this:










So, I knew this would be the prime suspect for a bad connection. Now, on the screen/readout side, it terminated in a tidy plug:










And I assumed that it did the same at the dome.

So, I thought maybe the issue was that the array wasn't rotating. Everything else seemed to be okay. So it was a trip up the mast for Smack, with the boys hoisting and belaying:










I got there and checked everything out externally. Seemed to be well secured, etc.










But after I pulled the cover, I shook my head and sighed - troubleshooting times two:










Not only did I now have _two_ breaks in the radar cable - I had dissimilar cables (different wire colors) on the dome end:










Just to be sure about the array, I had my older son power up the radar and hit transmit - and sure enough it was rotating. So that wasn't the issue. I had him turn it off quickly as I started to feel tingly in my shorts with all the radiation. But...

Good grief! I _really_ don't want to buy and install another radar unit. There are too many other places I want and need to put money on our boat.

So, the question is: Is this salvageable? I certainly don't mind mapping the wire colors from the dome end down, but how do you step-by-step and test something like this?

Freakin' hacks.


----------



## ccriders

Oh me,
How do you spell microwave? Think microwave oven and don't do that trick again!
Before you start continuity testing try to find out if there is one continuous cable inside the mast, deck connector to antenna connector. If not, the best approach will be to run a new cable in the mast. Surely the OP or the PROs can confirm this fact for you. 
Good luck. I'm not a radar guy so don't know the configuration of your cable, but there should be power, comms and RF. You would check the continuity of each set. You can cross patch either at the antenna or deck and read at the other end. Hope you have invested in a good multimeter. Two people with radios or cell phones will make this an easier job.
John


----------



## smackdaddy

Yeah - it ain't pretty. I was kidding about the tingly shorts, but I'm sure my longevity wasn't helped by any means.

Anyway, upon closer inspection, I think I see an even bigger problem - and maybe a solution. In tracking the wiring colors back to the buss in the bilge, it looks like I may have up to 4 pieces of cable - each different! If you look at the wiring coming into the dome, you'll see several wires that don't attach to anything. I need to study the cable at the lower buss, but from the photos, I don't see these extra wires in that piece.

Another thing I'm seeing in the photos at the dome is that thick black wire on the mast side. That houses a shield and a clear wire. The clear wire is plugged into the buss, but from the photo, it looks like the shield has just been pulled back, not attached to the buss where you can see a shield wire on the array side.

Something to try anyway.


----------



## ccriders

If the cable that comes out the top of the mast is different than the cable that comes out the bottom in the bilge, then bite the bullet and replace. Judging from you photos one cannot have any confidence that the in mast splice was properly made and could continue to be a problem source. If you are sure it is one contiguous cable. Then continuity checks will reveal if any is shorted or open. 
On RF coaxial cable, the shield has to be secured to the connector that plugs into the antenna. If the shield is for protecting comms and power against RFintrusion, it needs to be grounded. That's my understanding. We always ran RF separately from comms and power, so I'm just speculating here.
John


----------



## capecodda

Smack,

So it looks like someone had a radar cable pulled thru the mast, bought a new radar, and didn't want to replace the old cable. So if I got this straight, you've got 3 cables, one in the dome, one down the mast, one from the mast base to the display. If you can go through all the color code translations, in theory, this might work this way (probably did once). Yea, you gotta connect the shield too.

What fun! Tower of babble wiring.


----------



## smackdaddy

capecodda said:


> Smack,
> 
> So it looks like someone had a radar cable pulled thru the mast, bought a new radar, and didn't want to replace the old cable. So if I got this straight, you've got 3 cables, one in the dome, one down the mast, one from the mast base to the display. If you can go through all the color code translations, in theory, this might work this way (probably did once). Yea, you gotta connect the shield too.
> 
> What fun! Tower of babble wiring.


Yeah - it's a nightmare. I'm not positive about how many separate cables as I didn't do a thorough inspection of the cable at the lower Euro connector (by the mast). It might have the extra wires, etc. I'm seeing at the dome end. I do know that the cable coming in from the mast to that connector matches the one leaving that connector to the display.


----------



## GeorgeB

Smack, did you have the mast down and not inspect the wiring? Could be as simple as the mast not properly grounded or as bad as the wiring miss- reconnected, or god forbid, a shorted wire. I'm assuming your boat came without documentation. At the Tx end, there should be a bus that a wires should be connected to. You really shouldn't have a pig-tail bundled cable and that cheesy, unshielded, connecter bus. You should be able to find a radar manual on-line that shows the wiring diagram and after that it is just a question of using a multi meter to match up the correct connection between transmitter and display. The good news is at the end of the process you will have a proper wiring diagram for your nav instruments.


----------



## smackdaddy

Yeah - I paid the professionals at the yard a lot of money to take care of the wiring while they had the mast down. We can see where that got me.


----------



## aeventyr60

Buy a new cable and save your short and curlies...


----------



## miatapaul

aeventyr60 said:


> Buy a new cable and save your short and curlies...


This seems to be the best solution, as it will prevent issues in the future. Seems the real lesson here is that if you want a job done right you either have to hire Mainesail to do it, or do it yourself!


----------



## smackdaddy

I've contacted JRC to see if they have a cable (it's a discontinued model). Is it possible to buy stock cable with the same wiring configuration? How do you spec it to a cable supplier?


----------



## MedSailor

smackdaddy said:


> I've contacted JRC to see if they have a cable (it's a discontinued model). Is it possible to buy stock cable with the same wiring configuration? How do you spec it to a cable supplier?


I'd send them the old one.

MedSailor


----------



## Jaramaz

smackdaddy said:


> I've contacted JRC to see if they have a cable (it's a discontinued model). Is it possible to buy stock cable with the same wiring configuration? How do you spec it to a cable supplier?


If JRC has a cable it wont be cheap.

All these cables are standard cables. You will find a lot of possibilities if you look into any electronics catalogue (one example is the famous https://www.elfaelectronics.com/elfa3~ex_en/elfa/init.do?toc=20141&name=Cables+/+Wires+/+Accessories ), but there are others; probably you will find something locally in the US 

Do change all cables, inclusive the coax. Find high quality cables, preferably marine grade. 
Consider where you want contacts. Get high quality. These are expensive but worth it.

I would un-step the mast for doing this.

As noted in many threads: One better do it oneself, it is far easier to reach the one to complain to then.

/J


----------



## ccriders

Smack,
I'm surprised the antenna shroud has a terminal strip in it and not a connector that was prewired to the internals. A terminal strip seems to add to the potential for connection difficulties. Have you been able to determine what the configuration should be as opposed to what exists?
John


----------



## smackdaddy

Okay - from the manual I know it's described as a "8-cores composite cable (15 m)". And here is the wiring diagram:










There obviously shouldn't be a connector/terminal in the dome. It was obviously a complete hack job.

jara - thanks for the link. I'll see what I can find.


----------



## miatapaul

At least up in the radar dome you could put some sort of waterproof connector. There is a selection here:

http://www.molex.com/molex/products/group?channel=PRODUCTS&key=sealed_connectors

http://www.digikey.com/Web Export/S.../PDF/edac-catalog-waterproof.pdf?redirected=1

I would look into a connector at the bottom of the mast as well as it will make bringing the mast down quicker.


----------



## smackdaddy

Okay - several things going down. First, I installed some killer Lazy Jacks on our fine yacht. Check it:

You is Lazy Jack!

I'm now installing 300 watts of solar (and will do a write-up on that soon) - and just got in a new radar cable for the JRC 1500. I was very skeptical they even made them any more but I sent an email to JRC customer service and they hooked me up with a business right near the marina! BAM!

Lots more coming soon!


----------



## RTB

Hey, your boat is coming along. Nice video, dude. How expensive would it be to hire you and your boys to install lazy jacks for me? Nice work, kids!

See you tomorrow,
Ralph


----------



## pcmm

Nice video, but I have to ask...what are the blocks on the mast for that you installed?? Normally on a lazy jack system you attach pad eyes at the mast and put the blocks in the Ys of the system.


----------



## Jaramaz

pcmm said:


> Nice video, but I have to ask...what are the blocks on the mast for that you installed?? Normally on a lazy jack system you attach pad eyes at the mast and put the blocks in the Ys of the system.


With blocks in the mast it is easy to control / change the tension in the Lazy Jacks. I have a similar design - althoug the return of the Lazy Jacks goes internally in the mast in my case - minimizing windage and some noise.

In fact, there many ways to install Lazy Jacks.

Good luck with the sailing Smack!

/J


----------



## pcmm

Jaramaz said:


> With blocks in the mast it is easy to control / change the tension in the Lazy Jacks. I have a similar design - althoug the return of the Lazy Jacks goes internally in the mast in my case - minimizing windage and some noise.
> 
> In fact, there many ways to install Lazy Jacks.
> 
> Good luck with the sailing Smack!
> 
> /J


Interesting way of doing it. I've never seen it done that way, I've always seen the controll lines led along the boom. This way is simpler, and les noisey and causes fewer holes in the mast!


----------



## Faster

pcmm said:


> Interesting way of doing it. I've never seen it done that way, I've always seen the controll lines led along the boom. This way is simpler, and les noisey and causes fewer holes in the mast!


If you leave enough line at the mast base you can fully retract/store the jacks along the mast and boom and avoid the chafe and visual distraction while sailing.


----------



## smackdaddy

Faster said:


> If you leave enough line at the mast base you can fully retract/store the jacks along the mast and boom and avoid the chafe and visual distraction while sailing.


This is exactly right. I don't like having the lazy jacks up all the time as it can mess with the trim of the main. This way I can lower and stow them while underway. And this is the way this system was designed anyway.

Jara, I wish I could have set it up like yours with the lines inside the mast. That must be sweet.

Honestly, though, one thing I don't like is all the blocks. It is definitely easy to raise/lower/adjust everything, but it does seem like overkill. I think good SS rings would work just as well at the intersections, and keep everything lighter and simpler. But, for just $150 for the whole kit (minus line) it is very hard to beat.


----------



## Faster

smackdaddy said:


> .....
> 
> Honestly, though, one thing I don't like is all the blocks. It is definitely easy to raise/lower/adjust everything, but it does seem like overkill. I think good SS rings would work just as well at the intersections, and keep everything lighter and simpler. But, for just $150 for the whole kit (minus line) it is very hard to beat.


Ours are simply looped through eye splices.. the upper portions are line, the lowers are shock cord. The shock cord makes them 'self tightening' when stored and the upper ends are fixed to the mast on padeyes.

Shock cord does age and stretch over time.. we're due a replacement, 3rd time in 10 years now.

Since we only deploy them during the douse, they are stored and do not interfere with the hoist. If I were to leave them in place like so many do I'd attach the upper ends to a spreader about 6" off the mast to reduce interference with a hoist...


----------



## smackdaddy

Spent yesterday working on mounting the solar panels. Got them "tacked" onto the bimini frame here:










300 watts of pure power, baby.

Now for the frame stiffening to see if this approach will work. Write up coming soon.


----------



## RTB

I was thinking after we returned to our boat, after our visit with you today. How sturdy was your bimini frame before you started adding the panels? I'm thinking that if the bimini was on, it would be way less shaky. Maybe not, but just a thought. That's a huge bimini. 

Very nice boat, man. You did your homework, and may have bought one of the best Hunters ever. Thanks for the BFS koozies....I'll be drinking in style now. I however will avoid any BFS that I can on our boat, but if the ****e hits the fan one day, I'll give you a nice write-up.

Ralph


----------



## smackdaddy

RTB said:


> I was thinking after we returned to our boat, after our visit with you today. How sturdy was your bimini frame before you started adding the panels? I'm thinking that if the bimini was on, it would be way less shaky. Maybe not, but just a thought. That's a huge bimini.
> 
> Very nice boat, man. You did your homework, and may have bought one of the best Hunters ever. Thanks for the BFS koozies....I'll be drinking in style now. I however will avoid any BFS that I can on our boat, but if the ****e hits the fan one day, I'll give you a nice write-up.
> 
> Ralph


It's much stiffer with the bimini on. The fabric provides a lot of support that's not there right now. BUT, I'll still need to stiffen laterally - and will likely add a couple of straps along the back.

I think it will work pretty well. We'll see.

It was great having you guys there today. Love hanging out with you all. Thanks for all the advice dude.


----------



## MedSailor

Why would you need to ADD stiffness to the Bimini after adding tge solar panels? Seems like their inbuilt box frames would add lateral and longitudinal strength to your Bimini.


----------



## smackdaddy

MedSailor said:


> Why would you need to ADD stiffness to the Bimini after adding tge solar panels? Seems like their inbuilt box frames would add lateral and longitudinal strength to your Bimini.


They add a lot of torsional stiffness, but lateral and longitudinal needs some further support. In other words, it moves side to side too much. And, though the bimini fabric might fix it, I think I might run a diagonal down from the existing diagonal to that horizontal tube.


----------



## smackdaddy

Okay - we've been doing TONS of work on _Dawn Treader_. A lot of it has been electrical...adding solar, a Xantrex LinkPro battery monitor, additional batteries to the house bank, fixing the radar, cleaning up wiring, etc. I'll do a full write up on all that soon.










But here is a question...

For those of you who have solar...when you are at the slip do you just leave your AC battery charger (ours is a Xantrex) off and rely _only_ on the solar to keep the bank topped off? Or vice versa?

I've never used solar on a boat before so I'm just trying to get some tips.

Thanks!


----------



## RTB

It depends....

If you are on the boat running the fridge and lights, and other electronics, let the solar do it's work during daytime. Maybe top off with the AC charger before you sack out. Next day, see how much you are down and how much you are putting in. Is it sunny, or cloudy and raining? Bump up the batts if you can't catch up with solar.

If I'm away, and the fridge isn't on, forget the AC. The solar will keep you topped off, since there isn't any draw anyway. We do occasionally leave for a week, and need to leave the fridge running (because my wife didn't plan ahead). I leave the AC charger on in that case, not knowing if there will be enough sun to keep up. 

I hope this helps.

Ralph


----------



## Faster

smackdaddy said:


> For those of you who have solar...when you are at the slip do you just leave your AC battery charger (ours is a Xantrex) off and rely _only_ on the solar to keep the bank topped off? Or vice versa?
> 
> I've never used solar on a boat before so I'm just trying to get some tips.
> 
> Thanks!


We have no DC loads when in our slip (we don't leave the fridge running, for example, so the only load is the occasional bilge pump run when raining (mast water)

Under those conditions we do not leave any charger in play.

If we leave the fridge on for any reason and we're 'plugged in' I'd likely leave the shore charger on, as our solar is limited and can't keep up 24/7.

btw - watch these new stereos with 'memory power'.. they can chew up close to an amp/hr on their own - and that is 24/7.


----------



## smackdaddy

Cool. Thanks guys.

Ralph, since we both have the same system - do you just turn off the solar power at the controller when not in use - and/or when using shorepower? I'm just a little nervous about having solar and AC-charge running at the same time - because I don't know how all these work together.


----------



## RTB

We have the same panels, but I have the Blue Sky controller. I don't have a way to turn off the controller, but plays fine even if the AC charger is running. The Blue Sky jumps to Acceptance charge (14.4 volts) for two hours after Bulk charge, then goes to float automatically (13.2 v). 

Once you get the Link up and running, you can monitor how things work. When I started posting this, I was down .3 Amps, and the solar was putting in 1.1 Amps. I turned on the AC charger, and it jumped up to around 4 Amps coming in for a moment, then started dropping. Right now, I'm sitting at 14.2 V, charged 100%, and putting in 1.1 amps, with solar and the AC charger running. You'll just need to play with that charge controller, and see what it does with the charger running. I don't know.

Ralph


----------



## smackdaddy

Okay - cool. Thanks.


----------



## Faster

Seems to me that if any solar controller 'sees' 14+ volts from whatever source (fully charged battery or other charger) it should cut itself back?


----------



## RTB

For flooded lead acid, the Blue Sky bumps up to 15.2 V for equalizing. Don't try that with gels.

Ralph


----------



## Jaramaz

During sailing season, ie May -- Sept I leave the fridge on. Only power source is the solar panels, which are marked as total 50 W. ( note where I am sailing. ....)

Not good for a number of reasons to have the AC plugged in all the time. Would avoid this!

/J


----------



## smackdaddy

Jaramaz said:


> During sailing season, ie May -- Sept I leave the fridge on. Only power source is the solar panels, which are marked as total 50 W. ( note where I am sailing. ....)
> 
> Not good for a number of reasons to have the AC plugged in all the time. Would avoid this!
> 
> /J


Ah yes, sunny Sweden!

I'm going to try to go Full-Solar for a couple of months. I'll see what happens. We have a lot of sun here in Texas. If nothing else it will show me how the panels keep the bank up. I'll only have the fridge and bilge pump on full time.


----------



## Faster

smackdaddy said:


> ......I'll only have the fridge and bilge pump on full time.


Your bilge pump is on full time?????


----------



## overbored

I think he means turned on but not running unless it needs to on the float switch


----------



## Faster

overbored said:


> I think he means turned on but not running unless it needs to on the float switch


I know but I couldn't resist!  It is a Hunter, after all...... (ducking)


----------



## chall03

Faster said:


> I know but I couldn't resist!  It is a Hunter, after all...... (ducking)


Damn it you beat me too the Hunter reference....

Smack, I echo everyone else. In the slip,with the fridge off (and with us away from the boat) we leave solar on and shore power off. If the fridge is on then shore power goes on.

I do also have a simple switch in circuit to engage/disengage solar power.

I actually have a lot of switches on a a variety of stuff which I find is handy for diagnosing/fault finding at the least. (When freaky stuff is going on, it is handy to add and remove components one by one).

We have 200w of Solar with a 4 stage PWM charge controller.


----------



## Jaramaz

smackdaddy said:


> Ah yes, sunny Sweden!
> 
> I'm going to try to go Full-Solar for a couple of months. I'll see what happens. We have a lot of sun here in Texas. If nothing else it will show me how the panels keep the bank up. I'll only have the fridge and bilge pump on full time.


Hmpf! Sunny Sweden - you are welcome to visit 

But if this reasoning didn't work, let´'s look on a budget:
Income: if you have 50 W solar panels (which is about a minimum for a 40 ft) then that would give .. mmm... 3 A during 12 hours - in average, if everything is good (I do not get this, but then I am living in chilly Sweden ), summing up to 36 Ah.

Consumption: OK, that is mainly the fridge, and that would be ? A good fridge would average on 1 A on a 24 h duty cycle. => 24 Ah

Then, the other consumeras are the radio, the bilge and some general current leaks. They sum up max 0.1 A on average. => 2-3 Ah.

Thus, you are good! 
+36 Ah / 24 hour
-30 Ah / 24 hour

OK, I do not know fridge consumption in your area. It is a question of balance - but it should not consume more than indicated (we can have a separate discussion on that, you bring the beers, I'll have the arguments).

Did I say you need to have at least 300 Ah in total? 400 Ah is better. I known you have been whining about no space for batteries - but this is a question of a) having cold beer and b) being creative. I know you hjave considerable interests in both.

Do you want to hear all the arguments why you should not be connected to AC for a long periods, as in weeks? (Guess some here do not want to hear that, as they are charging 24/7). Separate thread, that too? OK, you start it if you want 

Sunny Sweden ...

/J


----------



## smackdaddy

Okay - another work weekend on the boat getting ready for our departure in June (we'll sail tomorrow just to get away from the freakin' work!).

I'm working on the solar charging system (write-up coming soon) and bought two more batteries for the house bank today. As I'm measuring things to install the 2 new batts, I hear a sizzle. I trace it to the starting battery and notice that the cap is off of one side. Hmm. Strange.

Not knowing squat about batteries (well just a little bit) - I know that this means the water level is low. So I add some distilled water until full. Problem solved right?

Later this evening I come into the spacious aft cabin with my tumbler of scotch and notice a sulfur smell. Not good. That's when batteries explode and cause fires. That much I know.

So, I douse the Xantrex and pull the starter battery out of the boat. I'll replace it tomorrow.

What's another benjamin?


----------



## desert rat

Don't hit me. What made the starter battery sizzle? Look closely at the whole system before you connect the new bat and have a multimeter at hand. May be just a funkey battery.


----------



## MedSailor

smackdaddy said:


> Later this evening I come into the spacious aft cabin with my tumbler of scotch and notice a sulfur smell. Not good.


You drinking cheap scotch again? Definitely not good if it smells like sulfur. Make sure it is above the age of consent. 

MedSailor


----------



## aeventyr60

Sure you didn't add Scotch to those batteries?


----------



## smackdaddy

From what I understand the sulfur smell means that the cell is no longer accepting a charge (due to a short, a defect, over-charging, etc.) and is essentially boiling off the acid as the charger keeps pushing charge in - hence the sizzle and popped cap.

I've checked the incoming charge from the Xantrex before and levels seemed right. I'll check everything again when I get this new battery in.


----------



## RTB

Best wishes getting this sorted out now. You sure don't want to get stuck in BFE with electrical issues. 

Our old Hunter is on the move again, but painfully slow. We'll be in Rockport tomorrow, after 4 agonizing days at 3-4 knots for 160 miles. A new bottom job, and we'll be on our way again. I hope to catch up with you somewhere along the way. 

BTW, be careful if you ever cross the Brazos River when it's running 3 1/2 knots between the flood gates. Crazy stuff, I tell ya. You should have seen Bob's Tartan 41 when he got hit by the current in front of us. 

Ralph


----------



## smackdaddy

I'll see you guys out there somewhere, Ralph. Absolutely.


----------



## smackdaddy

Just how stupid is it to change out a fuel tank sender (diesel) while there is fuel in the tank?


----------



## bigdogandy

Hmmmmmm.......I changed mine out two years ago with an almost full tank and it went pretty smoothly. The boat, engine, and I all survived. The way you phrased the question makes me wonder if that was just luck!

I was careful to have disconnected the batteries on the boat and didn't use any power tools, though.

How to Install a Moeller Fuel Gauge


----------



## Whitebread117

No problem, diesel is low volatility compared to most fuels. I wouldn't think twice about it.


----------



## ccriders

Full would be better than empty or half full.
It's the fumes that explode from a spark. You can drop a lighted match into a puddle of diesel and it will be snuffed out. Try it, you'll like it.
John


----------



## Don L

what difference does the level in the tank make far as fumes in the boat when you take the sender off????


----------



## mitiempo

Don0190 said:


> what difference does the level in the tank make far as fumes in the boat when you take the sender off????


It makes no difference. I have drilled into many tanks that had diesel at varying levels to install fuel pickups for diesel heaters without problems.


----------



## ccriders

What was it Pan Am flight 880 that exploded over Long Island? Caused by an electrical spark and half empty fuel tank. It's the fumes that explode, so fill the tank and reduce the volume of fumes. That's all I'm saying. It's like the welder working in a mostly empty crude storage tank. Blows himself and his helper into the sky. 
If doing electrical work in or around a fuel tank, either fill it to the top, or empty it and evacuate ALL of the fumes.
John


----------



## hellsop

ccriders said:


> What was it Pan Am flight 880 that exploded over Long Island? Caused by an electrical spark and half empty fuel tank. It's the fumes that explode, so fill the tank and reduce the volume of fumes. That's all I'm saying. It's like the welder working in a mostly empty crude storage tank. Blows himself and his helper into the sky.
> If doing electrical work in or around a fuel tank, either fill it to the top, or empty it and evacuate ALL of the fumes.
> John


You mean TWA 800? That one seems to have been caused by faulting wiring transferring fuel INTO the tank until it leaked ONTO the shorting wiring, started a fire under the tank, and that heated the rest of the tank until the fuel exploded. The tank had been loaded with 300 lbs of fuel, but the gauge registered 640 lbs before the explosion. Jet fuel typical starts fuming enough to support flame at 100F or so, so it wouldn't take a lot of fire to heat it that far. Diesel's about 125F. Gasoline's more like -45F. (Alcohol's about 60F, which is why alcohol stoves often need the burners preheated in cold weather.)


----------



## ccriders

Thanks, 
I was out of the country when it occurred and only got the briefest of reports, so missed the subtleties of regarding the wiring. Yet I still remember discussions of half full tanks.
John


----------



## smackdaddy

Cool. Then I'll go for it. Thanks for the feedback.

I just added 2 more batteries to the house bank. Just about to finish wiring them and the solar panel system on the next trip down - along with the LinkPro. Then it's a leak fix on the forward hatch, then a run-through of the engine alongisde a pro - then I think we're ready (as we can be anyway) for the trip starting the last week in June.

PS - I think I figured out why my starter battery fried. I switched off all the batteries when I was moving some of the cabling around. I left the starter battery in the off position. I'm thinking that made the Xantrex think it was low and it kept pumping charge into it until it boiled it off. I'm not quite sure how that would work - but I put the new battery in and the Xantrex kept pumping charge in - even though the stater battery was full. As soon as I discovered my mistake and turned the switch back on, the Xantrex powered down in about 15 minutes. I've checked each of the batteries with a volt meter a few times since and they all seem to be doing fine. But I definitely need to learn more about my system.

Here is what I've been able to figure out thus far in terms of the diagram (oh- and I just added 2 more HB batts)


----------



## smackdaddy

Here is the first installment on our new solar system:









More Range, More Freedom, Less Fuel - Part 1 | SmackTalk!


----------



## jerryrlitton

Hey Smack, hard To tell from here but do you think you could have put two more or larger panels up there? A lot of wasted space. It would also give you some shade. Also hard to tell from this angle but can you take a whiz off of your stern? Enough head room back there?


----------



## smackdaddy

jerryrlitton said:


> Hey Smack, hard To tell from here but do you think you could have put two more or larger panels up there? A lot of wasted space. It would also give you some shade. Also hard to tell from this angle but can you take a whiz off of your stern? Enough head room back there?


It was a balance between weight and space. I actually purchased 4 panels in the kit thinking I could squeeze all of them up there with two between the split backstay (you can just see the backstay v down in that photo beside the two outer panels). But it was just too tight and started really limiting what I could do with the backstay. As it is, these 3 panels added about 60 pounds which is a lot for a bimini frame. It would be nice to have more, but I think this will do.

Oh, and plenty of headroom for a nice lee-pee. You just knee-up on the perch seat and let her rip. It's all good.


----------



## jerryrlitton

smackdaddy said:


> It was a balance between weight and space. I actually purchased 4 panels in the kit thinking I could squeeze all of them up there with two between the split backstay (you can just see the backstay v down in that photo beside the two outer panels). But it was just too tight and started really limiting what I could do with the backstay. As it is, these 3 panels added about 60 pounds which is a lot for a bimini frame. It would be nice to have more, but I think this will do.
> 
> Oh, and plenty of headroom for a nice lee-pee. You just knee-up on the perch seat and let her rip. It's all good.


Yes I see the back stays now. Also we need to be careful of the image. Too many panels makes our boats look like floating gin palaces, not the mighty blue water non production cruisers we have.


----------



## jerryrlitton

Kidding about the production thing.


----------



## smackdaddy

jerryrlitton said:


> Yes I see the back stays now. Also we need to be careful of the image. Too many panels makes our boats look like floating gin palaces, not the mighty blue water non production cruisers we have.


Mine is more a Floating Scotch Palace. And I'm perfectly cool with that.


----------



## RTB

Hey Steve - It's good to see you making progress. It is a good feeling to finish a DIY project. You saved a few bucks, plus I believe the old saying...."If you want something done right, do it yourself". I must admit, living on the hard in a boatyard for 13 days, sucks. But, we splashed on Tuesday, and almost ready to head east again ourselves.










Hey, if you do a shakedown run, come down to Rockport. Bob and I are at Cove Harbor Marina. I can get you a deal on a slip here.

Ralph


----------



## miatapaul

jerryrlitton said:


> Hey Smack, hard To tell from here but do you think you could have put two more or larger panels up there? A lot of wasted space. It would also give you some shade. Also hard to tell from this angle but can you take a whiz off of your stern? Enough head room back there?


I suppose some need more head room than others! 

Looks good smack. Will be interested in hearing how it keeps the beer cold, and all the web cams/iPads/GoPro/stereos and what not running. Keep us updated. What kind of battery monitor do you use?


----------



## smackdaddy

I've got a Link Pro that I'm adding. I'll let you know how it all works out.


----------



## Minnewaska

Are they easily removed from the bimini for a nasty passage? I like the location. They're out of the way, with good exposure. I would worry in a gale, I can't see them making it through a force 10.


----------



## smackdaddy

Minnewaska said:


> Are they easily removed from the bimini for a nasty passage? I like the location. They're out of the way, with good exposure. I would worry in a gale, I can't see them making it through a force 10.


Easily? I guess so. You just pull off 2 bolts at each connection and you're done. I can (and likely will) put butterfly nuts on those to make that even faster.

Of course, apart from the fact I probably wouldn't make it through an F10 myself and will avoid such storms as rabidly as I can - I certainly wouldn't leave the bimini up after pulling the panels anyway. It's all coming down - one way or another.


----------



## Don L

If I ever do an open ocean F10 I would have bigger worries than what are in the big picture a couple of inexpensive solar panels.

Meanwhile my 290W panel is installed in a kind of similar way and have stayed there just fine through many gales and Northeasters (one of which had my boat pick its' 5000# mooring up and take it for a ride).


----------



## tdw

smackdaddy said:


> But I definitely need to learn more about my system.


You are not alone there mate.


----------



## single2coil

guessing a pin hole leak in the weld at corners. Have to pull the access doors, but that does not find the actual leak. Drain it, add food coloring dye then fill slowly. When colored water shows up perhaps you can trace it. Good luck. 
Man that Smack Picture gives me the willy's. Just as you intended. It is a hoot


----------



## Minnewaska

smackdaddy said:


> Easily? I guess so. You just pull off 2 bolts at each connection and you're done. I can (and likely will) put butterfly nuts on those to make that even faster.
> 
> Of course, apart from the fact I probably wouldn't make it through an F10 myself and will avoid such storms as rabidly as I can - I certainly wouldn't leave the bimini up after pulling the panels anyway. It's all coming down - one way or another.


I would try to avoid it too. However, 48kt winds are not going to be fully avoidable, if you're heading offshore. We even had 40 kts in the marina last weekend! Have seen 50, when a tropical storm passed the coast. You don't necessarily need to be offshore.

Wing nuts sound like a good plan for a variety of reasons.


----------



## chall03

Minnewaska said:


> I would try to avoid it too. However, 48kt winds are not going to be fully avoidable, if you're heading offshore. We even had 40 kts in the marina last weekend! Have seen 50, when a tropical storm passed the coast. You don't necessarily need to be offshore.
> 
> Wing nuts sound like a good plan for a variety of reasons.


It is a production boat......A Hunter no less. Might be best to secure the Epirb and raft to the Bimini in anything over 30kts as the rest of the boat is probably just going to disintegrate anyway


----------



## MedSailor

History tells us that Wingnuts aren't designed for high wind applications. Have you learned nothing from the Mackinac tragedy!?


----------



## hellsop

smackdaddy said:


> It's all coming down - one way or another.


Even if the breeze does it for you?


----------



## RTB

hellsop said:


> Even if the breeze does it for you?


Nope. As long as the bimini frame is fairly well mounted, those panels are going nowhere. More often than not, cruising boats have the panels mounted on the bimini frame. We've seen a few storms in Florida and the Bahamas and have plenty to worry about at times. The panels on the bimini were never a concern.

Ralph


----------



## smackdaddy

Holy crap! I just added one of these babies to the boat:

Amazon.com: Ivation Portable High Capacity Household Ice Maker w/LCD Display - 2.8-Liter Water Reservoir, 3 Selectable Cube Sizes - Yield of up to 26.5 Pounds of Ice Daily: [email protected]@[email protected]@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/[email protected]@[email protected]@41fP7DSSnIL

Under $200 and it makes enough ice for 4-6 people in less than 2 hours, with first cubes coming out in 15 minutes...and 26.5 lbs in 24 hours!!!

This thing is awesome! I'll do a video review soon.


----------



## Faster

Guessing that won't run on 12Vdc


----------



## smackdaddy

Faster said:


> Guessing that won't run on 12Vdc


That's what generators are for baby.


----------



## Minnewaska

Now, you officially have a yacht.


----------



## smackdaddy

Minnewaska said:


> Now, you officially have a yacht.


You're just jealous of the Macallan I poured over said cubes.

And I've ALWAYS had a yacht! Now it just has ice, ice baby!


----------



## Minnewaska

smackdaddy said:


> You're just jealous of the Macallan I poured over said cubes.
> 
> And I've ALWAYS had a yacht! Now it just has ice, ice baby!


Sorry, I've had a built in ice maker for years. It's a Uline that makes and holds 12 lbs of ice in a storage bin. Runs off a 5 gal water tank we fill only with bottled water. My Macallan is home, however. I'm tucked in aboard right now.

Acceptable to cool with one cube, promptly removed. Pouring a single malt over ice is sacrilege.


----------



## aeventyr60

Can you blend up a margarita is the real question?


----------



## smackdaddy

Minnewaska said:


> Sorry, I've had a built in ice maker for years. It's a Uline that makes and holds 24 lbs of ice in a storage bin. Runs off a 5 gal water tank we fill only with bottled water. My Macallan is home, however. I'm tucked in aboard right now.
> 
> Acceptable to cool with one cube, promptly removed. Pouring a single malt over ice is sacrilege.


"Acceptable"? You obviously don't live in Texas.

Anyway, my ice monster makes _*over 26 lbs*_ in 24 hours. So I win.


----------



## smackdaddy

aeventyr60 said:


> Can you blend up a margarita is the real question?


Stand by. I'm not sure how this will turn out with the scotch.


----------



## Minnewaska

smackdaddy said:


> "Acceptable"? You obviously don't live in Texas.
> 
> Anyway, my ice monster makes _*over 26 lbs*_ in 24 hours. So I win.


Is didn't say how fast it would make it (which is fast) I said how much it will store in a frozen bin, like a bar back ice maker. I've had parties with a dozen aboard and never used half the ice in the frozen bin. Where will you store yours?


----------



## smackdaddy

Minnewaska said:


> Is didn't say how fast it would make it (which is fast) I said how much it will store in a frozen bin, like a bar back ice maker. I've had parties with a dozen aboard and never used half the ice in the frozen bin. Where will you store yours?


In my guests' glasses silly.

You're just wasting yours. Sad really. Anyway, I don't even _know_ a dozen people.


----------



## Faster

smackdaddy said:


> ...... Anyway, I don't even _know_ a dozen people.


Sad, really


----------



## ccriders

smackdaddy said:


> "Acceptable"? You obviously don't live in Texas.


This is true. In order to get scotch even close to the temperatures found in Scotland, it's best to use crushed ice so that little bits of ice go with the scotch and cools your pallette along with the scotch so you get the true Scotish experience. Only, down here we really can't wear a sweater in July no matter how much you crank up the AC.
John


----------



## RobGallagher

Crushed ice...single malt... I, I, I, for once in my life I'm speechless. deep breaths...

Someone is going to hell and it's not going to be me.


----------



## smackdaddy

RobGallagher said:


> Crushed ice...single malt... I, I, I, for once in my life I'm speechless. deep breaths...
> 
> Someone is going to hell and it's not going to be me.


You won't go to hell. You'll go to Texas. Heh-heh.


----------



## RobGallagher

smackdaddy said:


> You won't go to hell. You'll go to Texas. Heh-heh.


Thank goodness there is more than one Texas...

Ya got your Billy Beer, R&C cola and Cutty Sark on the rocks drinken, we don't bake wedding cakes for catamaran sailors Texas.

Then ya got yer, Yamazaki & Pappy Van Winkle drinkin, we will cater yer beach cat wedding with pizza and craft beer Texas.

Please beg the baby heyzuess to send me to the happy place.


----------



## Don L

Ice has no place in a glass with good alcohol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And if it isn't beer and you have to make it cold to be able to drink it, then it is only of use for mixing with something else.


That of course is my truthful opinion


----------



## RobGallagher

Don0190 said:


> Ice has no place in a glass with good alcohol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And if it isn't beer and you have to make it cold to be able to drink it, then it is only of use for mixing with something else.
> 
> That of course is my truthful opinion


That, my friend, is the gospel according to Noe Booker.


----------



## MedSailor

Hasn't anyone ever heard of whisky stones? Soapstone (or Scottish granite) that you keep in the freezer and put in your glass? The solution to the dilution problem. 

There are also reusable ice cubes which are water filled plastic things. Less classy but works just as well.


----------



## Faster

For mixed drinks like 'dark and stormy's (Rum and Ginger Beer) freeze some mix into cubes and use them instead of ice cubes....


----------



## RTB

You guys are making me want to head over to Spanky's Liquor. I only have some Bud and cheap brandy aboard today. 

Smack....You on the boat today? Had some winds late yesterday here, and I think Galveston had gusts up to 60. Your panels still on the boat???

Ralph


----------



## smackdaddy

RTB said:


> You guys are making me want to head over to Spanky's Liquor. I only have some Bud and cheap brandy aboard today.
> 
> Smack....You on the boat today? Had some winds late yesterday here, and I think Galveston had gusts up to 60. Your panels still on the boat???
> 
> Ralph


Yeah - I saw 52 knots last night. We probably had a couple of puffs that were a bit higher.

Bimini is fine, panels are fine - no problemo.


----------



## smackdaddy

MedSailor said:


> Hasn't anyone ever heard of whisky stones? Soapstone (or Scottish granite) that you keep in the freezer and put in your glass? The solution to the dilution problem.
> 
> There are also reusable ice cubes which are water filled plastic things. Less classy but works just as well.


Yep. The original rocks for "on the rocks".


----------



## drosymor

Don't store a single malt on the boat. Texas is too damn hot and can damage it unless I keep it in the frig and take it out an hour before consumption. Macallan over ice: an abomination.


----------



## hellsop

RobGallagher said:


> Then ya got yer, Yamazaki & Pappy Van Winkle drinkin, we will cater yer beach cat wedding with pizza and craft beer Texas.


Heh. Interestingly, the Yamazaki 12 is a single malt that actually LIKES ice. (The 18 doesn't, btw. The things I do for SCIENCE!)


----------



## hellsop

MedSailor said:


> Hasn't anyone ever heard of whisky stones? Soapstone (or Scottish granite) that you keep in the freezer and put in your glass? The solution to the dilution problem.
> 
> There are also reusable ice cubes which are water filled plastic things. Less classy but works just as well.


Better. The plastic ones have a phase change happening, which gives them respectable cooling power. The stones will cool the drink 10-15F below room temp, but they're done after that. And they're hard enough to chip your glassware if you're not careful with them. Or your teeth. Ice is soft in comparison.


----------



## smackdaddy

drosymor said:


> Don't store a single malt on the boat. Texas is too damn hot and can damage it unless I keep it in the frig and take it out an hour before consumption. Macallan over ice: an abomination.


This is me rolling my eyes. I don't care if it's damaged. If it brings the buzz that's good enough.

You can drink on your boat in hot places like Texas or the Carib - or you can stay home and keep your scotch in the fridge because it demands it. A real man never lets his booze run his life. He sails.


----------



## RobGallagher

Heat will not damage whiskey if it is bottled. In the cask it can have an effect...could be for the better or worse in the overall aging process, but it does not "hurt" it. Casks sit in warehouses for decades that are not climate controlled. Be it Scotland or Kentucky or Japan.

Yamazaki chilled with a solid globe if ice is interesting, not really "better" in my opinion, but that is the beauty of it...just my opinion.
Cheers!


----------



## drosymor

I keeps it in the frig on the boat. I likes to keep an eye on it. Got to protect from boarders too.


----------



## drosymor

RobG, It may not damage it in Connecticut, but I wouldn't want to test that in Texas on my Lagavulin 16. Just not worth the risk.


----------



## smackdaddy

Okay! The new solar panels are now charging my newly expanded 384-ah house bank! Next up is the LinkPro and that should do it for the electrical work - for now.










Also installed cam cleats on the mast for the new lazy jack lines, lee cloth anchors in the salon, and lid locks for all the settee lids.

Kind of rocked it this weekend. Write up coming soon.


----------



## RTB

smackdaddy said:


> Kind of rocked it this weekend. Write up coming soon.


You're sounding pretty motivated, Steve. I have vivid memory of the day we cast off that very dock back in November, 2012. What a great feeling that was. You guys are about to make some memories that will stay with you for a long, long time. Say hey to the boys for us.

Ralph


----------



## smackdaddy

RTB said:


> You're sounding pretty motivated, Steve. I have vivid memory of the day we cast off that very dock back in November, 2012. What a great feeling that was. You guys are about to make some memories that will stay with you for a long, long time. Say hey to the boys for us.
> 
> Ralph


I'm definitely motivated. But I'm getting nervous as the day nears. I really am. This is a big deal. It's exciting and scary.

I'll tell the boys hi.


----------



## RTB

smackdaddy said:


> I'm definitely motivated. But I'm getting nervous as the day nears. I really am. This is a big deal. It's exciting and scary.
> 
> I'll tell the boys hi.


Yes, it really is a big deal. Maybe it's the scary part that keeps some from ever actually living out their dreams. Hey, it's easy. After a couple of days, you guys will get in the groove. The actual "leaving" is the hard part. The rest is just learning as you go. It comes quickly....and you will learn something new just about every day. We're still learning, but the scary part is gone now. You guys will do fine, unless you go looking for a nail-biting BFS experience....

Ralph


----------



## Minnesail

RobGallagher said:


> Thank goodness there is more than one Texas...
> 
> Ya got your Billy Beer, R&C cola and Cutty Sark on the rocks drinken, we don't bake wedding cakes for catamaran sailors Texas.
> 
> Then ya got yer, Yamazaki & Pappy Van Winkle drinkin, we will cater yer beach cat wedding with pizza and craft beer Texas.
> 
> Please beg the baby heyzuess to send me to the happy place.


Well, there's Texas and then there's Austin.


----------



## smackdaddy

Minnesail said:


> Well, there's Texas and then there's Austin.


Absofreakinlutely.


----------



## RTB

Crazy people in Austin (sorry, smack). I should know. Got a crazy sister there, and some crazy friends too.

Are you following along on SB 1548 http://www.sailnet.com/forums/general-discussion-sailing-related/192154-florida-again.html? Could be another challenge for us cruisers, and you are heading that way too, right?

Ralph


----------



## smackdaddy

Solar is up and running. Check it:









More Range, More Freedom, Less Fuel : Part 2 | SmackTalk!


----------



## RTB

I hope you get some decent mileage out of those batteries. Not trying to nip-pick here, but mixing old with new batteries concerns me. Keep an eye on things once you get your monitor hooked up. There is no way to know what's going on without that. Once the older batteries start to go, they will drag down those new ones.

As you know, I have the same interstates as you. They have done ok, but I'll be dumping them for the T-105's before we leave this time. Room is tight for batteries on my boat too, but I'll find a way. In the end, I truly believe it will be worth the effort and expense.

Are you guys still heading out once the boys are out of school for the summer? I'm looking forward to your adventures. Hopefully, you won't be replacing batteries in Boot Key Harbor like I did.


----------



## smackdaddy

Well that's a confidence booster, Ralph! Thank a lot pal! 

Heh-heh. We'll see.

Yes - we are leaving in July (around the 15th or so). And if I do have to replace the batteries - I'd much rather do it in Boot Key than Kemah. I'll consider that an accomplishment.


----------



## Minnewaska

I'll second the concern for mixing battery ages. Part of the trouble is not knowing what the actual capacity of the bank really is. As a battery amateur, I picture the new batteries trying to charge the old.


----------



## smackdaddy

Yeah - but the reality is...when you're spending a ton of money on tons of projects getting ready to go somewhere...you can't always budget to do every one of those things "perfectly". And I'm okay with that.

Even if I can get a season or two out of this bank it will be worth the $600+ I saved by not replacing everything. And at that point, the budget likely won't be as crazy as it is now during prep.

So fret not my friends.


----------



## RTB

smackdaddy said:


> Well that's a confidence booster, Ralph! Thank a lot pal


Aw man, I didn't mean to bum you out. Believe me, I know very well how the money flows getting ready to slip those dock lines. I spent so much money in Kemah it made me crazy. I said that's it...we're leaving! Hey, we left with 2 year old dual purpose batteries from West Marine, and no solar or wind. We made it quite a ways with that. Killed the batteries in Boot Key, bought new ones, and started adding solar and wind, little by little.

I think you'll find your set-up ok for awhile. You're better equipped than we were when we left. You'll figure things once you get away from marinas. Let us know how it goes.

Ralph


----------



## smackdaddy

Dude - don't worry. You're telling it like it is. It's always a roll of the dice.


----------



## Maine Sail

smackdaddy said:


> Okay! The new solar panels are now charging my newly expanded 384-ah house bank! *Next up is the LinkPro and that should do it for the electrical work - for now.
> *


Did you consider the Smart Gauge? Much, much, much easier and remarkably accurate..


----------



## smackdaddy

I didn't even know about "Smart Gauge". I'd read and seen a lot of really positive stuff about the LinkPro - and already had the Xantrex charger so thought it would be a logical addition. Already bought and installed - just need to wire it into the bank.

Man, there is a lot of stuff to know about this whole electrical thing.


----------



## davidpm

Seaduction said:


> With a gallon of leakage in 2 hours, it could be the fuel return line leaking. If the tank has a leak, it would leak with or without the engine running. Just a thought.


That was my first thought but I couldn't square it with not leaking unless the tank if full.


----------



## smackdaddy

davidpm said:


> That was my first thought but I couldn't square it with not leaking unless the tank if full.


We haven't had any further leakage since. But, we've also not had to re-fill the tank. So it definitely had something to do with the full tank.

A month or so after it leaked the second time, I poked around and noticed that the level sender had a mounting screw missing. So my hunch is that when the tank was full - either due to heeling or due to warming fuel expanding - it leaked out that sender hole. I've since replaced that missing screw - but the leaking had stopped even before that. So it definitely doesn't seem to be problems with the lines or the tank itself.

We'll see what happens on my next fill-up.


----------



## smackdaddy

I'm soon going to put together a blog post regarding all the money I've _wasted_ on stuff I thought I'd need - or stuff I thought I could score a good deal on - but didn't for one reason or another. It's a pretty impressive list.

For example, I bought a 6-person liferaft off eBay that needed re-certification. It was "only" $200 and in "good shape". But then I started pricing out what it would take to get it re-certified. Lots of $$$. So, I just bought a new 6-person raft instead - which I should have done in the beginning.

Stuff like that.

I'm sure most people go through this preparing for a trip - so it's good to lay out the costs of these kinds of mistakes. I've got no shame.


----------



## RTB

smackdaddy said:


> I've got no shame.


 Um, I think we already know that...

*B*reak *O*ut *A*nother *T*housand.

Since you're in a "self torture" mode, what's still on your "to do" list, and "things to buy" list?

Ralph


----------



## Don L

smackdaddy said:


> I'm soon going to put together a blog post regarding all the money I've _wasted_ on stuff I thought I'd need - or stuff I thought I could score a good deal on - but didn't for one reason or another. It's a pretty impressive list.


I've long decided that unless you have been out before and are CERTAIN of what you need that you should just cover the basics and get other things once you have proven to yourself it worth spending money on.


----------



## smackdaddy

Don0190 said:


> I've long decided that unless you have been out before and are CERTAIN of what you need that you should just cover the basics and get other things once you have proven to yourself it worth spending money on.


I'm not really that way. I want to prepare as best I can _before_ I head out. I'd much rather have stuff I don't end up needing than be out there and _not _have stuff I need.



RTB said:


> Since you're in a "self torture" mode, what's still on your "to do" list, and "things to buy" list?
> 
> Ralph


Honestly, I think I'm in pretty good shape at this point. Over the next couple of visits I'll be working on the engine (changing oil, fuel filters, impeller, etc.). Then I also need to clean and lube the main sail track and a few other minor things.

All the major stuff is pretty much done from what I can see right now.


----------



## chall03

smackdaddy said:


> I'm soon going to put together a blog post regarding all the money I've _wasted_ on stuff I thought I'd need - or stuff I thought I could score a good deal on - but didn't for one reason or another. .


Yep.

My first Liferaft was a great bargain. $300 on Ebay. Recertification was $1300.
I told them to forget the recertification and then bought a new raft for $1700.
A lesson learn't for $300.

....and don't get me started on HF radios.

We had an old, poorly installed HF radio. It died. We never actually used it, but hey even though there is now some debate about their continued value we figured being good cruisers we needed HF despite having the sat phone(with a reputable provider ) and generally being in VHF range most of the time.

So several thousand $$$$ later I now have a new Icom, perfectly installed that we have used twice.


----------



## smackdaddy

chall03 said:


> ...we figured being good cruisers we needed HF despite having the sat phone(with a reputable provider...


Yeah, you'd hate to have the fact that you RebelHearted on your Sailing CV.


----------



## smackdaddy

Okay - I'm working on the LinkPro wiring and have a question. As you can see, the diagram has the "System Ground" coming directly into the shunt - then the negatives for the batteries coming from that shunt.










Do I literally need to take the system ground (which is currently on a battery) directly into the shunt? Or can I just run another extension from that same terminal over to the shunt and leave the system ground where it is?

Also, should I run the negative and positive from the same battery? Or split between the 2 batteries in the same bank? Or split between banks (negative to one of the batteries in one bank, and positibe to one of the batteries in the other bank)?

Thanks.


----------



## Faster

The shunt has to be in series with your system loads.. I'd wire it exactly as shown. Leaving the existing ground strap in place would short out the shunt, methinks. Looks like the shunt is only going to track usage on your 'main battery' (typically house bank) as drawn, and not the aux/starter - I believe that's how ours is wired as well.


----------



## mitiempo

Faster is correct. Any loads connected between the shunt and the battery do not get counted.


----------



## RTB

I'm terrible at explaining stuff. I guess you've already read this? - Installing A Battery Monitor Photo Gallery by Compass Marine How To at pbase.com

Ralph


----------



## smackdaddy

Okay - so another nitpicky detail. As you can see in the following diagram (which needs to be updated since I've added the new batteries and the new shunt) - I have 2 "system" negatives running out forward and aft. One runs from House Bank 1, forward into a conduit toward the engine. The other runs from House Bank 2, aft into the generator compartment but I'm not sure where it terminates:










Any ideas?

Also - Faster, to my understanding, the "Main Battery" in that diagram above is for the entire house bank. The Aux Battery is the starter.

(PS - Thanks Ralph. Maine's articles are gold. I now understand about "jumping the shunt" - and I assume the negative running toward the engine is the system ground - and the one running aft toward the generator space is the panel ground. But I'm just wanting some assurance as I don't want to screw this up.)


----------



## mitiempo

The shunt goes in the negative wire right after the house bank negative post. You are showing the shunt in the positive.

There should be only 2 positive wires on the ACR - start battery positive and house battery positive. You show 4.

Best to wire your house batteries into one permanent bank. It both makes wiring/use simpler and the batteries will last longer.


----------



## smackdaddy

Cool - thanks Miti.


----------



## smackdaddy

Okay - another weekend on the boat with the boys getting our pre-departure checklist done. The Link Pro is wired and working. I'll sync it in the morning (very late night after watching The Avengers with the boys).

I also got the radar dialed in and completed my first oil change on a diesel. Piece of cake. Next are the fuel filters and impeller. The list really is getting short.

A bit of bad news, however...what I believe to be the wet exhaust muffler is leaking. Could be a serious hit to the kitty. I'm gonna pay a dude. We'll see.

Write-up coming soon.


----------



## mitiempo

smackdaddy said:


> A bit of bad news, however...what I believe to be the wet exhaust muffler is leaking. Could be a serious hit to the kitty. I'm gonna pay a dude. We'll see.


Replace it yourself. Easy to do and they are not very expensive.

Centek or Vetus.


----------



## smackdaddy

A new installment on the various projects we've gotten done. LOTS of stuff from radar to ice maker to oil change to LinkPro...

...even a new puppy!

Various Projects : Part 4 | SmackTalk!


----------



## Don L

In the long run your time would be better spent fixing all those wiring bird's nests!


----------



## aeventyr60

smackdaddy said:


> A new installment on the various projects we've gotten done. LOTS of stuff from radar to ice maker to oil change to LinkPro...
> 
> ...even a new puppy!
> 
> Various Projects : Part 4 | SmackTalk!


No dishwasher? How dare you leave without the essentials...


----------



## smackdaddy

Don0190 said:


> In the long run your time would be better spent fixing all those wiring bird's nests!


I'll get around to it. I don't want to tie everything down until I know for sure it's right and working. Form follows function.


----------



## smackdaddy

aeventyr60 said:


> No dishwasher? How dare you leave without the essentials...


Au contraire - I have two.


----------



## Minnewaska

aeventyr60 said:


> No dishwasher? How dare you leave without the essentials...


Our PO installed a dishwasher, along with several other luxuries for life aboard, including an ice maker and Splendide washer/dryer. None of which I thought I really needed.

Turns out the ice maker is indispensable. When it temporarily broke last season, my wife and I argued over who had to go buy ice. It was miserable. The washer/dryer is only used on longer cruises, but it also a fantastic luxury.

The dishwasher, however, is the most ridiculous piece of ballast on the boat. Fits nothing, never gets used. I want to rip it out and turn the precious galley space it occupies back into storage.


----------



## hellsop

smackdaddy said:


> Au contraire - I have two.


Those look like they'd be easy to haul up a mast, too.


----------



## mitiempo

Don0190 said:


> In the long run your time would be better spent fixing all those wiring bird's nests!


I was going to ask if you have any after pics. The video shows very messy wiring that I thought had to be before you upgraded.


----------



## smackdaddy

mitiempo said:


> I was going to ask if you have any after pics. The video shows very messy wiring that I thought had to be before you upgraded.


Do you mean me or Don?


----------



## Don L

smackdaddy said:


> Do you mean me or Don?


Cann't be me, I don't have any wiring bird's nests on my boat


----------



## smackdaddy

Oh - well, for me it's a matter of priorities. Like I said above, I definitely want to confirm functionality before I start snipping and tying down.

I'm honestly not concerned with how my wiring looks right now. I just want it to work. There are more important things to do with our shrinking pre-departure timeframe than make wiring all pretty for forum photos.


----------



## MedSailor

smackdaddy said:


> Oh - well, for me it's a matter of priorities. Like I said above, I definitely want to confirm functionality before I start snipping and tying down.
> 
> I'm honestly not concerned with how my wiring looks right now. I just want it to work. There are more important things to do with our shrinking pre-departure timeframe than make wiring all pretty for forum photos.


I completely agree, with one caveat. You must be sure that your wiring is properly fused so that it can't start a fire. Also, a $10 insurance policy would be to toss a smoke detector in the cabinet with the most connections so that if something did start smoking you could be right on top of it before things got bad.

MedSailor


----------



## smackdaddy

MedSailor said:


> I completely agree, with one caveat. You must be sure that your wiring is properly fused so that it can't start a fire. Also, a $10 insurance policy would be to toss a smoke detector in the cabinet with the most connections so that if something did start smoking you could be right on top of it before things got bad.
> 
> MedSailor


I'm using the included harnesses/wires/fuses and following the installation instructions for each piece I'm adding (monitor, solar charging, additional batteries in the bank, etc.). So - as long as those instructions are correct, I should be okay.

However, there is a lot of stuff that was already there that I've not gotten into changing (e.g. - the ACR, the switches, and the wiring for each, messiness at the panel and Xantrex charger, etc.).

This goes back to what I'm saying in my blog about how crazy this electrical stuff can get. And how hard it is to follow the different types of advice you get if you don't _really_ know what you're doing.

For example, I understand Miti to be saying that it would be good to remove the additional positives going into the ACR so that the entire house bank is seen as one battery (and basically bypass the switch). And I get that. But then I've understood Maine to say that the switch is important to be able to isolate the sides of the bank. So it gets pretty confusing sometimes for guys like me.

I'm currently on the "if it ain't broke" route. Because when I start digging into what's there and making significant changes, it's going to raise a whole host of new troubleshooting that I need more time to deal with.

BTW - I already have the smoke detector.


----------



## Don L

smackdaddy said:


> I'm currently on the "if it ain't broke" route.


Come on you have had a boat long enough to know all that means is that it "works at the moment", which isn't really the same as it isn't "broken".


----------



## miatapaul

smackdaddy said:


> Au contraire - I have two.


good luck getting them to do the dishes! :laugher


----------



## RTB

So, is your new crewmember (Schipperke) going along with you guys? Don't forget his pfd.

Ralph


----------



## smackdaddy

RTB said:


> So, is your new crewmember (Schipperke) going along with you guys? Don't forget his pfd.
> 
> Ralph


Yes, Pepper's coming with us. We specifically got a Schipperke because they are boat dogs - bred in Belgium and used as ratters and watch-dogs on barges. Wonderfully rich history.

Of course, Pepper immediately puked after only 10 minutes on the boat (notice the lump of nasty to her left)...










Nice. Heh-heh.

Actually that was right after we picked her up - she's been fine ever since. And we do have a pfd for her now.


----------



## RTB

Lots of cruising dogs out there from what we've seen. Having a watchdog in places like Nassau wouldn't be a bad idea. That probably applies to other spots in the Caribbean too. 

Ralph


----------



## Minnewaska

smackdaddy said:


> ......I'm currently on the "if it ain't broke" route. Because when I start digging into what's there and making significant changes, it's going to raise a whole host of new troubleshooting that I need more time to deal with.....


The thing that is broken with messy wiring is a chafing/shorting potential, which is a fire hazard.

Not trying to be dramatic, just something to think about. I don't recall seeing the wiring in question.


----------



## mitiempo

Minnewaska said:


> The thing that is broken with messy wiring is a chafing/shorting potential, which is a fire hazard.
> 
> Not trying to be dramatic, just something to think about. I don't recall seeing the wiring in question.


Here is is:


----------



## smackdaddy

That's just part of it. Here is where things started when I bought the boat...










You can see the black starter battery (wired into its own On/Off switch), the ACR, and the two single house-bank batteries which are wired into a 1/2/All switch to starboard.

Here is the start battery and ACR (with its shunt, fuse, and switch to the left)...










The center house battery #2...










And the starboard house battery #1...










What you see in the still you posted from the vid is the wiring for the Xantrex LinkPro (straight out of the box, each fused and about 4' long with fittings on each end). That's the biggest visual mess - but not a big deal right now. You also see the additional cables for the added batteries to the house bank. There are also the new cables for the solar charger that show up in the video as well. So, there's a lot of stuff going on.

The 3rd negative cable in your video snip goes from the battery to the LinkPro shunt.

So - as I said, I only got as far as wiring the LinkPro in and making sure it worked. I'll clean things up on that later when I get a chance.

Then, eventually, I'll start digging through the rest of the mess that I inherited. And this is nothing compared to what's behind my panel. One step at a time.


----------



## mitiempo

smackdaddy said:


> The 3rd negative cable in your video snip goes from the battery to the LinkPro shunt.


When wiring a battery monitor there has to be only one cable on the battery negative post - directly to the shunt. Any other negatives on the battery are avoiding the shunt and their current is not counted.


----------



## smackdaddy

mitiempo said:


> When wiring a battery monitor there has to be only one cable on the battery negative post - directly to the shunt. Any other negatives on the battery are avoiding the shunt and their current is not counted.


Okay - but what about the negative cable for the second battery on this side of the bank? I have a total of 4 house batteries...two on each side of the switch. That's the second cable in the image. The third negative cable you see goes to the negative of the other side of the house bank (it was there originally as you can see in the original photos).


----------



## mitiempo

smackdaddy said:


> Okay - but what about the negative cable for the second battery on this side of the bank? I have a total of 4 house batteries...two on each side of the switch. The third negative cable you see goes to the negative of the other side of the house bank (it was there originally as you can see in the original photos).


That makes sense I guess. But regardless of how many batteries in a parallel bank there is no reason for 3 connections to a negative (or positive) post.


----------



## smackdaddy

mitiempo said:


> That makes sense I guess. But regardless of how many batteries in a parallel bank there is no reason for 3 connections to a negative (or positive) post.


My assumption for the 3rd negative was that it accounted for the switch (carrying the system ground across). What you've shown in the diagram has no switch. From my understanding, my bank has a switch that allows 2 of the 4 batteries to be isolated (1/2/All) - though I always leave it set on All.

And this goes back to what I was saying earlier. I could definitely wire around the switch and get rid of it, but Maine seemed of the opinion (if I understood him correctly) that being able to isolate was a good thing.

Another mysterious negative (to me anyway) is that 3rd one coming off #2 and going aft. I assume that's the panel negative, but haven't had a chance to fully trace it yet.


----------



## smackdaddy

smackdaddy said:


> For example, I bought a 6-person liferaft off eBay that needed re-certification. It was "only" $200 and in "good shape". But then I started pricing out what it would take to get it re-certified. Lots of $$$. So, I just bought a new 6-person raft instead - which I should have done in the beginning.


Well - remember that $200 I had to eat because I bought that uncertified raft off eBay? I just sold it on eBay for a $120 profit. Not bad.


----------



## mitiempo

smackdaddy said:


> My assumption for the 3rd negative was that it accounted for the switch (carrying the system ground across). What you've shown in the diagram has no switch. From my understanding, my bank has a switch that allows 2 of the 4 batteries to be isolated (1/2/All) - though I always leave it set on All.
> 
> And this goes back to what I was saying earlier. I could definitely wire around the switch and get rid of it, but Maine seemed of the opinion (if I understood him correctly) that being able to isolate was a good thing.
> 
> Another mysterious negative (to me anyway) is that 3rd one coming off #2 and going aft. I assume that's the panel negative, but haven't had a chance to fully trace it yet.


Switches are in positive cables - not negative cables. Grounds are always common (connected).

Batteries in one bank do not ever need switches to isolate - I don't believe Maine ever stated that. It would among other things defeat the monitors accuracy if ever used.


----------



## smackdaddy

mitiempo said:


> Switches are in positive cables - not negative cables. Grounds are always common (connected).
> 
> Batteries in one bank do not ever need switches to isolate - I don't believe Maine ever stated that. It would among other things defeat the monitors accuracy if ever used.


Okay cool. Thanks for that. Just to be clear, there is also _another_ negative that runs from that #2 house bank (where this 3rd negative from #1 goes) to the starter battery in the same fashion. Could that be the reason for this extra cable...running the system ground across to the starter?

As for the isolation issue, I likely misunderstood Maine. Like I said, this stuff is definitely new to me. My understanding of my current house bank is that it is actually two banks of two batteries each - joinable into a single bank of 4 by the switch set to All - or isolated into a bank of 2 by setting the switch to 1 or 2.

Anyway - thanks for the patient explanations. I'll get it eventually.


----------



## Don L

Are those photos current? Those are some ugly looking cable crimps (IMO)


----------



## Maine Sail

smackdaddy said:


> Okay - but what about the negative cable for the second battery on this side of the bank? *I have a total of 4 house batteries...two on each side of the switch.* That's the second cable in the image. The third negative cable you see goes to the negative of the other side of the house bank (it was there originally as you can see in the original photos).


You can't use the Link-Pro to monitor _two house banks and your negative wiring if even close to current is a disaster for an Ah counter. The way it is wired, as seen in the video, it will NEVER be accurate._

*THE ONLY NEGATIVE WIRES ON THE BATTERY SIDE OF THE SHUNT ARE FOR BANK PARALLELING! ALL OTHER NEGATIVE WIRES MUST BE ON THE LOAD SIDE OF THE SHUNT INCLUDING THE START BATTERY NEG.*

I will try and sum this up...

* *ONE CONTIGUOUS WIRED HOUSE BANK NOT THROUGH A SWITCH*
* START BANK NEG GOES ON LOAD SIDE OF SHUNT
* KITE STRING FOR BATTERY CABLE ON A 40 FOOTER?
* UNSEALED AND CORRODING LUG CRIMPS?
* NO MORE THAN FOUR TERMINALS PER ANY TERMINATION
* WIRE SUPPORT
* POSITIVE OFF ONE END OF HOUSE BANK
* NEGATIVE OFF OTHER END OF HOUSE BANK
* ALL PARALLEL WIRING SHOULD BE SAME LENGTH POSITIVE & NEGATIVE
* INCORRECT RING TERMINAL SIZES FOR THE STUD THEY ARE ON
* NO LOCKING WASHERS AND USING WING NUTS
* WHAT IS THE SHUNT IN THE POSITIVE WIRING FOR?
* TERMINAL PROTECTION?
* WIRES SHOULD BE LABELED

With wiring like that We could easily read about you in a Louis Jordan fashion.. Please dude, you have kids bring in a pro or do this safely...


----------



## smackdaddy

Maine Sail said:


> Please dude, you have kids bring in a pro or do this safely...


Okay - let's not get overly dramatic here. There's a difference between style and efficiency and death and destruction. Unsightly crimps and an inaccurate LinkPro are likely not going to kill my children.

Also, bear in mind that I didn't originate or in any way advocate the vast majority of what you see. It's what I inherited. I'm fixing what I can as I go - and your feedback helps...so thanks for that.

At the same time...with all due respect to you and Miti (and I _*seriously, honestly mean that because you guys are pros*_) - you really need to look at the photos a bit more closely or something. Because you're calling out some stuff that's actually "correct" - which gets really confusing. For example...



Maine Sail said:


> You can't use the Link-Pro to monitor two house banks and your negative wiring if even close to current is a disaster for an Ah counter. The way it is wired, as seen in the video, it will NEVER be accurate.
> 
> THE ONLY NEGATIVE WIRES ON THE BATTERY SIDE OF THE SHUNT ARE FOR BANK PARALLELING! ALL OTHER NEGATIVE WIRES MUST BE ON THE LOAD SIDE OF THE SHUNT INCLUDING THE START BATTERY NEG.


That is the way it's set up now (per the instructions). A single cable goes from the battery side of the shunt to the first house battery. You can see it in this pic (the single cable coming off the left side of the shunt - the "Battery" side):










The two cables on the right side of the shunt are the "System"-side ground which runs toward the engine (with the blue label) and the negative that goes over to the start battery as the Auxiliary as shown in the diagram in these instructions...










Isn't that correct?

That does bring up another inherited thing that was weird to me when I was working on the LinkPro...and that's the extra negative cable that was running across the house batteries to the starter to carry the system ground over. It's the third, older cable you see here in the center...










Since I've now run the new negative to the start battery from the System side of the shunt, I should be able to get rid of this extra cable, correct? I could see how this would definitely cause problems with the LinkPro.



Maine Sail said:


> I will try and sum this up...
> 
> * ONE CONTIGUOUS WIRED HOUSE BANK NOT THROUGH A SWITCH
> * START BANK NEG GOES ON LOAD SIDE OF SHUNT


Okay - that helps. I'll re-cable the house bank to bypass the switch completely. That should clean things up considerably. However, one thing that will complicate that (and a couple of things below like the number of terminals, etc.) is what I assume to be the red wires coming from the Xantrex battery charger to the switch...










Should those now go directly to the house bank?

There is also the "Combine Batteries" switch (for the house bank and start batteries) just to the left of the house switch in that photo. Should I keep that in the loop?



Maine Sail said:


> * KITE STRING FOR BATTERY CABLE ON A 40 FOOTER?
> * UNSEALED AND CORRODING LUG CRIMPS?


That's what was there.

As you can see, I'm in the process of replacing that cabling. The gauge of the new cable I've put in matches what is run throughout (the stuff going to the panel, to the engine, etc.). What gauge should I get for these connections in the battery compartment?

And, most importantly, are we talking death and destruction here? Or just efficiency? Knowing that helps prioritize.



Maine Sail said:


> * NO MORE THAN FOUR TERMINALS PER ANY TERMINATION
> * WIRE SUPPORT


On the terminals, I assume you mean this - which, again, was inherited...










I think I can clean that up. But with the Xantrex wires, the ACR wires, the solar charger wires, the LinkPro wires, etc. - it's pretty crowded. I assume I can bring that stuff into the house bank on pretty much any battery to spread it around?

As for the wire support, I assume you mean cable ties anchored the structure of the boat, etc.?



Maine Sail said:


> * POSITIVE OFF ONE END OF HOUSE BANK
> * NEGATIVE OFF OTHER END OF HOUSE BANK


Cool. I can do that.



Maine Sail said:


> * ALL PARALLEL WIRING SHOULD BE SAME LENGTH POSITIVE & NEGATIVE
> * INCORRECT RING TERMINAL SIZES FOR THE STUD THEY ARE ON
> * NO LOCKING WASHERS AND USING WING NUTS


Okay. I think I can clean that up pretty easily. It's what was there.



Maine Sail said:


> * WHAT IS THE SHUNT IN THE POSITIVE WIRING FOR?


From what I can tell, that is part of the ACR. Here are a couple of better photos of that...



















Again - this is what was there. I've not touched it.



Maine Sail said:


> * TERMINAL PROTECTION?


The spray? The felt? Both?



Maine Sail said:


> * WIRES SHOULD BE LABELED


I'm working on that. It's why I started the diagram above.

Again, thanks for the detailed feedback. Hopefully, other people are learning from this as well.


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## mitiempo

The shunt is not part of the ACR - lose it. Probably from an old ammeter.

Do not attach wires to other batteries in the bank to keep cable per terminal count down! Use bus bars. There should not be more than 2 current carrying wires on a battery bank except for parallel wiring.

When confronted with a mess like that and confusion over which wire is for what the best solution is to strip it and start fresh. 

You are planning to go offshore with that mess?


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## MedSailor

I think you're doing a great job, BTW of learning and fixing this stuff as you go. I did some incredibly stupid stuff (worse than anything you've posted or alluded to by far) as I was figuring out the 12v boat stuff when I was getting started. 

Glad to hear you have the smoke detector already, and to be clear, my safety recommendation was to put an additional one IN THE BATTERY COMPARTMENT in close quarters to give you the earliest possible warning of anything going awry. I bought a few myself and will be tossing them in various cupboards next time I'm aboard because I haven't found all the wiring demons yet. 

Also, congrats on the life raft sale, though I'm disappointing that you aren't going to now make a video of opening it up and using it as a bouncy house in your yard. 

MedSailor


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## smackdaddy

mitiempo said:


> You are planning to go offshore with that mess?


As I said - there is a difference between a "mess" and a "deadly condition". If you could be so kind as to point out the _actual_ death trap stuff (_for real_) I'll pull someone in to address it.

Otherwise, I'm cleaning things up as I go.



mitiempo said:


> Do not attach wires to other batteries in the bank to keep cable per terminal count down! Use bus bars.


Okay. That makes sense. But isn't the switch currently acting as a buss bar in this case?


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## mitiempo

smackdaddy said:


> As I said - there is a difference between a "mess" and a "deadly condition". If you could be so kind as to point out the _actual_ death trap stuff (_for real_) I'll pull someone in to address it.
> 
> Otherwise, I'm cleaning things up as I go.


In my opinion anyone doing their own wiring should know what every wire is for and where it goes. If not hire a professional.

Do you know what every wire is for? If not you aren't qualified to do your own wiring.

Also, all current carrying battery wiring should be the same size ideally - 1/0 or preferably 2/0.

Do you actually expect to fix a problem when offshore at night in a rough sea with one of the kids steering in that mess? Not only would it be a mess to sort at sea but its condition can easily lead to problems - chafe causing a short, connections failing, etc. The best insurance is to hire a professional who will likely remove everything and start fresh.


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## smackdaddy

mitiempo said:


> In my opinion anyone doing their own wiring should know what every wire is for and where it goes. If not hire a professional.
> 
> Do you know what every wire is for? If not you aren't qualified to do your own wiring.


That's kind of where I thought this was headed. So that's the real rub isn't it? It's impossible to learn your system - especially one you've inherited - until you tear into it yourself (the DIY aspect always encouraged in good sailors). Yet, if you don't know what every wire is for - you shouldn't be tearing into it in the first place? Kind of a Catch 22.

Look - I know it's messy. But the system is working as it stands - and it has been for years. So, to me, it's more a matter of gradually working through what's there and improving it - learning the system as I go. That makes a lot more long-term sense to me than paying a pro to rip it all out and start over before we go - and _still_ end up not knowing how to fix stuff while off-shore.

As for the kids steering. They are actually very good. I have no problem with that at all. Otherwise we wouldn't be going.

So, as I said, if you see something _actually deadly_ in those photos, tell me and I'll call in a pro. If you simply see unprofessional work - I get it. That's what I see too. I'll gradually get it squared away.

PS - It also completely depends on the pro you're paying. This is what I got the last time I paid a "pro" at a yard in Kemah...










And I'm not kidding.


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## MedSailor

I had a friend (who was a relatively new boat owner) ask me if I had "The awesome bible by Nigel Caulder." I told him I hated the book, which was quite a surprise to him. 

Him: "Why? It's the book that everyone recoomends? It tells you how to do everything right!"

ME: "I hate that book because it make me feel like a bad boat father!." 

I slowly upgraded my systems, did it all DIY and learned as I went. I made some stupid mistakes and didn't kill myself or anyone else. The boats never did reach true Nigel Caulder perfection, but they were safe, seaworthy and we had a lot of fun USING them!

MedSailor


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## Maine Sail

smackdaddy said:


> On the terminals, I assume you mean this - which, again, was inherited...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think I can clean that up. But with the Xantrex wires, the ACR wires, the solar charger wires, the LinkPro wires, etc. - it's pretty crowded. *I assume I can bring that stuff into the house bank on pretty much any battery to spread it around?
> *


NO!!!!! You can't "*bring that stuff into the house bank on pretty much any battery to spread it around*"...

What part of:

*EVERY NEGATIVE WIRE MUST BE ON THE LOAD SIDE OF THE SHUNT EXCEPT WIRES USED FOR PARALLELING THE BANK*

does not make sense...????

If this is "too crowded" you purchase a negative distribution busbar and wire all the negatives to it then wire the busbar to the load side of the shunt then the battery side of the shunt to the house bank.

Add two more batteries to your parallel bank and this is what your set up should look like. 
*
NO F'ING WIRES OTHER THAN THE PARALLEL JUMPERS ON THE BATTERY SIDE OF THE SHUNT!!!*










Negative distribution busbar: (Ignore _wing nuts_ this photo was a photo for the owner of agreed layout.)









See how many _other negative wires_ are on that battery terminal? Exactly none!!!

Here is another view and the start battery negative (smaller battery) runs to the negative distribution busbar. All the vessels negatives are on the load side of the shunt.









Unless they are paralleling jumpers, to increase capacity, EVERY NEGATIVE WIRE ON THE ENTIRE BOAT GOES ON THE LOAD SIDE OF THE SHUNT!!!!

In this image you can see another negative distribution busbar on the _load side_ of the shunt. We have ONE NEGATIVE WIRE coming from the series/parallel house bank to the battery side of the shunt. The two smaller black wires attached to the banks negative terminal are temp sensors for the alt and battery charger. They are NOT NEGATIVE LOADS just temp sensors.. 









Maybe these will help?

*CORRECTLY WIRED LOAD:*









*INCORRECTLY WIRED LOAD:*


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## smackdaddy

Thanks. That makes sense.

PS:



Maine Sail said:


> Negative distribution busbar: *(Ignore wing nuts this photo was a photo for the owner of agreed layout.)*


I wasn't going to say a word.


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## ccriders

smackdaddy said:


> Well - remember that $200 I had to eat because I bought that uncertified raft off eBay? I just sold it on eBay for a $120 profit. Not bad.


Hey, I thought you were supposed to pay the good stuff forward, not the bad stuff. Seems like if you are going out adventuring you would want to be scoring karma points, not spending them.
When I was cleaning up a wiring rats nest I thought about ripping everything out and starting fresh until I realized one more sailing season would be lost, so I just went back to the factory reset and replaced what was added. Still took a long time and still is NOT to Maine Sail standards. But it works and no smoke yet. 
John


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## ccriders

Oh, and another thing. Get all this done before you turn 70, or atleast while you can still fold yourself into thirds.
John


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## RTB

ccriders said:


> Oh, and another thing. Get all this done before you turn 70, or atleast while you can still fold yourself into thirds.
> John


Hey, next time you're in the Rockport area, look me up at Cove Harbor Marina. Or we could anchor out at Mud Island near here, or on CC bay.

My wiring could use some re-doing too, despite the fact that it has worked fine for the past 3 years and 5000 miles of cruising. The problem with being ok with it since it's working, and thinking I'll correct everything later is...it never gets done unless a problem arises. I'd bet most of us are like that. Just look at things previous owners have done on 25-30 year old boats.

I dread wiring stuff too, but I've sure learned a few things in this thread recently. Thanks for the excellent info from Maine Sail, as usual. I'm about to switch over to 4 golf cart batteries, so get to start fresh.

Ralph


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## smackdaddy

ccriders said:


> Hey, I thought you were supposed to pay the good stuff forward, not the bad stuff. Seems like if you are going out adventuring you would want to be scoring karma points, not spending them.
> When I was cleaning up a wiring rats nest I thought about ripping everything out and starting fresh until I realized one more sailing season would be lost, so I just went back to the factory reset and replaced what was added. Still took a long time and still is NOT to Maine Sail standards. But it works and no smoke yet.
> John


Hey - that's the beauty of eBay, baby. I didn't set the price - someone just wanted to pay that. And I was very honest about its condition. Good karma all 'round.


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## smackdaddy

RTB said:


> I dread wiring stuff too, but I've sure learned a few things in this thread recently. Thanks for the excellent info from Maine Sail, as usual.


This is the most important thing. I don't mind being the 12V whipping boy if we all learn something.

Thanks to Maine and Miti...though I think I might need to send them some blood pressure medicine. Heh-heh.


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## RTB

smackdaddy said:


> I don't mind being the 12V whipping boy if we all learn something.


Thanks for taking the whipping. I could post a pic of my wiring and share, but I'm not that brave. Now...to get rid of these wingnuts, add a busbar, and I'm good to go (unless I've missed something). Keep in mind I don't have all those fancy electronics on my boat. Like radar, autopilot, windlass, etc. Way less wiring to worry about.

Carry on! So....you doing the ditch, or doing a Gulf crossing? Never mind. I've got your blog bookmarked, heh heh.

Ralph


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## GeorgeB

I missed the part on why wingnuts are bad. As long as you are using a lock washer, why would the type of nut mattered? If you needed to disconnect the battery bank in a hurry isn't it faster to undo a wingnut rather than hunt for a proper socket and wrench?


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## MedSailor

GeorgeB said:


> I missed the part on why wingnuts are bad. As long as you are using a lock washer, why would the type of nut mattered? If you needed to disconnect the battery bank in a hurry isn't it faster to undo a wingnut rather than hunt for a proper socket and wrench?


If I recall it's a newer ABYC standard. A few years ago it was okay, but not anymore. I agree that a lock washer and wingnut would be a good combination. Using a wrench is a great way to accidentally bridge positive and negative. 

Maybe Maine_Sail should invent a nylock-wingnut for battery terminals. 

MedSailor


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## smackdaddy

RTB said:


> So....you doing the ditch, or doing a Gulf crossing? Never mind. I've got your blog bookmarked, heh heh.


I've done quite a bit of planning for this trip from Galveston to Tampa. I'm thinking Panama Canal.


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## MedSailor

smackdaddy said:


> I've done quite a bit of planning for this trip from Galveston to Tampa. I'm thinking Panama Canal.


No Cape Horn? Sequitur you are not!


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## GeorgeB

Smack, check your charts and compass - Tampa is the wrong direction if you are heading to Panama.


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## smackdaddy

This one silly!


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## RTB

Once past New Orleans, it's not bad going. Plenty of chances to go outside if the weather doesn't suck. It's a good shakedown run for you guys and the boat. 

Ralph


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## Faster

RTB said:


> So, is your new crewmember (Schipperke) going along with you guys? Don't forget his pfd.
> 
> Ralph


A cautionary anecdote re the above...

A couple of weeks ago our son and his family were sailing across to the Gulf Islands and just passing the bell buoy outside the harbour. Seeing seals is commonplace, but this 'seal' had a furry tail and turned out to be a mid-sized terrier valiantly swimming along trying to catch 'his' boat.

They turned around and stopped and were able to get the dog aboard (no DFD - Dog Flotation Device  - but it did have a harness on). Shortly thereafter they could see a boat seemingly sailing a search grid a short distance off. As they closed on that boat they asked if they'd lost a dog.. and a happy reunion ensued. The woman was frantic, and the husband in deep doo-doo as he was the only one on deck when the POB occurred...


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## smackdaddy

Okay - subject change...where do you guys with dogs have them do their bidness while offshore? I'm thinking of a litter-box in the head?

I guess I'll do a search...in honor of Sailingdog. Heh-heh.


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## RTB

Don't you use some kind of mat on deck? Check with raindog - https://raindogps34.wordpress.com/

I think Erika has the poop on this....


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## MedSailor

Astroturf on a rope on deck. Dog does his (her?) Bidness on the "grass" and then you chuck the mat-on-a-string overboard and keelhaul it until it's clean. Train him early on the turf and you should be good!

Medsailor


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## mitiempo

smackdaddy said:


> That's kind of where I thought this was headed. So that's the real rub isn't it? It's impossible to learn your system - especially one you've inherited - until you tear into it yourself (the DIY aspect always encouraged in good sailors). Yet, if you don't know what every wire is for - you shouldn't be tearing into it in the first place? Kind of a Catch 22.
> 
> Look - I know it's messy. But the system is working as it stands - and it has been for years.


Working for years offshore sailing? Or daysailing and a cludge fix back at the dock?

I think you are smart enough to learn your system. Give yourself more credit.

As far as tearing it apart goes, I would remove each wire to either check or re-do the lug and connection, also to check for wire corrosion. I would want to know where each wire goes and why it was there. I would want the color correct if it wasn't already. I would make sure each wire gauge was correct for the load or change to larger if necessary. I would make sure all wire is tinned. I would remove all extraneous wiring as it just confuses. I would want to fuse each battery bank and fuse again when the wire gauge stepped down. I would make it neat so you can trouble shoot any issue in the future.

Interestingly though, removing everything and starting fresh is actually faster when confronted with such a rats nest and its issues.


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## MedSailor

mitiempo said:


> Working for years offshore sailing? Or daysailing and a cludge fix back at the dock?
> 
> I think you are smart enough to learn your system. Give yourself more credit.
> 
> As far as tearing it apart goes, I would remove each wire to either check or re-do the lug and connection, also to check for wire corrosion. I would want to know where each wire goes and why it was there. I would want the color correct if it wasn't already. I would make sure each wire gauge was correct for the load or change to larger if necessary. I would make sure all wire is tinned. I would remove all extraneous wiring as it just confuses. I would want to fuse each battery bank and fuse again when the wire gauge stepped down. I would make it neat so you can trouble shoot any issue in the future.
> 
> Interestingly though, removing everything and starting fresh is actually faster when confronted with such a rats nest and its issues.


You do a great job of paraphrasing Caulder et al. Is your boat wired as you describe and if so, how many hours do you think it took you to get there?

Medsailor


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## smackdaddy

mitiempo said:


> I think you are smart enough to learn your system. Give yourself more credit.


Miti - I have _absolutely no doubt_ I can learn my system. None at all. I'm completely confident in that. That's what I'm doing as we speak.

What I _do_ have doubt about is pulling everything out and redoing it correctly and perfectly myself. That's a COMPLETELY different can of worms. And I am _utterly_ confident that I'm _not_ qualified to do that right now - at least not unless I make that my sole project for the next 2 years (and read a lot of Calder) before we ever sail a mile. Also, I'm not going to pay a pro $10K+ to re-do _absolutely everything_, then re-start my learning with a brand new system. That doesn't make any sense to me.

Look, you're a pro - so is Maine. I'm not. I'm smart enough to gradually improve bad. But, I can't create perfect from scratch like you guys can. But I'm okay with that - like most other sailors. We have to learn a lot about a lot (electrical, diesel, plumbing, instrumentation, navigation, you name it). That's the challenge and the fun of sailing. But it's a rare bird that does all of the above to the level of Maine's photos.

Remember, what is faster for you and Maine is DEFINITELY not faster for a guy like me. I don't know what I don't know.

As I've said over and over - if you or Maine see something _truly life threatening_ in these photos, tell me and I'll call a pro. So far neither of you have done that. So far, if you look above, it's primarily been about the LinkPro not being accurate because of bad negative cabling at the shunt (or questionable crimps, etc.) - and the _potential_ of chafe (which is ALWAYS there on any sailboat system). This doesn't seem like a trip-killer to me.

So - I'm waiting. Tell me. Otherwise it's just general bluster about the amateur level of the work...which I'm _certainly_ not advocating as optimal, but, in fact, still functions despite itself.

Life is a risk. And it's short. This much I know. I certainly don't want to go to sea with an obvious deathtrap, but if purely a messy installation makes me the Lost-Louis dude - then I guess that's what it is.

At the end of the day, I'd rather learn something precise and positive to do to lessen that risk than just stay at the dock and call a pro or spend a tremendous amount of precious time trying to be you and/or Maine.


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## jerryrlitton

You could begin by having a non production boat.


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## jerryrlitton

Just kidding. I have a little nest in mine also, but at least everything is labeled. As we speak it is slowly getting sorted.... This will be a long job.


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## mitiempo

MedSailor said:


> You do a great job of paraphrasing Caulder et al. Is your boat wired as you describe and if so, how many hours do you think it took you to get there?
> 
> Medsailor


I've not actually read much Calder, although like everybody else I have his book. I have used it for reference, but mostly mechanical rarely electrical.

My boat is a woodworking/fiberglass work in progress right now, but the DC wiring was replaced by me when I purchased a few years ago. Currently installing custom bow roller, bow rail, new rigging, and lifelines.

A better time example is a job I recently completed. Cape Dory 28 trawler. New batteries (4 GC's) in a different location, new start battery in different location, ACR, new battery switch in new location, all new cabling to panel, engine, from alternator, Victron BMV-700 monitor, all with proper fusing. With a bit of help from the owners installing batteries in boxes in their new location 20 hours billed.


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## mitiempo

smackdaddy said:


> Miti - I have _absolutely no doubt_ I can learn my system. None at all. I'm completely confident in that. That's what I'm doing as we speak.
> 
> What I _do_ have doubt about is pulling everything out and redoing it correctly and perfectly myself. That's a COMPLETELY different can of worms. And I am _utterly_ confident that I'm _not_ qualified to do that right now - at least not unless I make that my sole project for the next 2 years (and read a lot of Calder) before we ever sail a mile. Also, I'm not going to pay a pro $10K+ to re-do _absolutely everything_, then re-start my learning with a brand new system. That doesn't make any sense to me.
> 
> Look, you're a pro - so is Maine. I'm not. I'm smart enough to gradually improve bad. But, I can't create perfect from scratch like you guys can. But I'm okay with that - like most other sailors. We have to learn a lot about a lot (electrical, diesel, plumbing, instrumentation, navigation, you name it). That's the challenge and the fun of sailing. But it's a rare bird that does all of the above to the level of Maine's photos.


Yes, it is a different can of worms. Starting from scratch instead of trying to fix a mess is easier. You have installed a battery monitor incorrectly and you still do not know where some wires go.

In steps:

With batteries in place wire the house bank in parallel. Fuse bank - MRBF ideally. Positive to bus then switch. Negative to battery side of monitor shunt. Load side of shunt to negative bus. All other negatives to this bus. One cable from this bus to engine - ideally starter negative.

Start battery positive to switch after MRBF fuse on post. Start negative to negative bus.

ACR - positive to house bank positive bus and other positive to start battery positive. Small negative from ACR to negative bus - fused.

Output from switch to starter, another to DC panel. Alternator output to positive house bus.

If you keep all wiring the same size - say 2/0 - the only fusing required is the MRBF's on each bank's positive post plus a lower amperage fuse at switch in cable to panel or you could fuse individually off the bus. Fusing in smaller wires - monitor cables, ACR negative - would be needed as well.

A small fuse panel can be added for 24/7 items such as bilge pumps. Wire positive from house bus and run negative from bus after shunt.

I wrote this quickly so may have missed something.

But after this, which would not take long, you would know where every wire goes and each connection would be done properly. It would be neat and there would not be any extra wires you don't know about. If there was a problem you would both know where to look and have little trouble figuring it out.

Currently you are not really learning a system but trying to understand a rats nest - never easy.


----------



## casey1999

Smack,
I think you have a 99.999 percent chance you'll be ok. Think of the many thousands of recreational and commercial boats throughout the world that ply the oceans daily without incident, that are wired much worse. Just keep an eye on things and inspect often. The chick that I bought my boat from single handed it around the world. Most things were not fused. The bow light was melted due to over current and short, old extension cords were used for wiring and household wire nuts were used for splicing. Took me three years to work it all out, and I sailed the boat during that time. That is just the electrical. Sea cocks had been plugged with galvanized iron pipe plugs and seacock handles were rusted off. Most hoses were dry rotted. But hey, the chick made it


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## zedboy

mitiempo said:


> Starting from scratch instead of trying to fix a mess is easier.


This.

I cringe when I see most marine wiring diagrams - WTH are they so complicated? Miti's setup is so simple my eight year old can understand it.


----------



## Minnewaska

smackdaddy said:


> Okay - let's not get overly dramatic here....


I'm sure MaineSail knows and I suspect you would know that electrical systems are the number one cause of boat fires. Greater than all other causes combined, in fact. I doubt they were all obvious death traps. In your photos, there are things that just seem to be a matter of asthetics, but many that are potential problems.

I support your right to do it your way, I'm just adding that I don't think he was being overly dramatic.


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## mitiempo

I have investigated several boat electrical fires. It only takes one unfused wire and happens in seconds.


----------



## smackdaddy

First, yes Minne - I fully understand that electrical problems are very often a leading cause of boat fires (I assume mechanical/fuel issues are right up there as well). And these can definitely kill you. Then there are storms, failed seacocks, rudder and keel losses, getting run down by a ship, lightning strikes, falling overboard, etc, etc. So the point is not lost on me. But, again, it comes down to specifics, not dramatic generalities.



mitiempo said:


> Yes, it is a different can of worms. Starting from scratch instead of trying to fix a mess is easier. You have installed a battery monitor incorrectly and you still do not know where some wires go.


See, this is the kind of worm-can I'm talking about. I actually _didn't_ install the battery monitor incorrectly. It was installed exactly the way the instructions said to install it.

What _is_ incorrect, as I've found out in this thread, is all the other wiring and cabling that was already present (back to the can of worms issue). I didn't redo all of that when adding this monitor for three reasons:

1. The LinkPro instructions weren't nearly as clear as Maine's sketchy diagram on what all needed to move to that system side of the shunt. (He says on his site that this is a common problem he sees on a lot of boats and if you look at the instructions you can see why.)
2. That system has been working fine for a very long time and I didn't want to mess something up by ripping it apart and starting over without very clear instructions to follow...which leads to...
3. I didn't/don't have the expertise to spot such less-than-completely-obvious problems in the first place - which is why, though you may fully believe it, starting from scratch would _not_ be a good idea for me.

Now, back to Minne and Maine's point above - if an inaccurate LinkPro is the outcome of this particular mistake, that's not a big deal. I have additional battery monitoring onboard. So, unless I'm mistaken, this is a NOT a life-threatening issue - which is my point above.

Most importantly, however, with the good specific feedback like I'm getting (Maine's above and yours below), I can now start squaring these things away.

Again, it's a learning process. And one I'm grateful to you guys for.



mitiempo said:


> In steps:
> 
> With batteries in place wire the house bank in parallel. Fuse bank - MRBF ideally. Positive to bus then switch. Negative to battery side of monitor shunt. Load side of shunt to negative bus. All other negatives to this bus. One cable from this bus to engine - ideally starter negative.
> 
> Start battery positive to switch after MRBF fuse on post. Start negative to negative bus.
> 
> ACR - positive to house bank positive bus and other positive to start battery positive. Small negative from ACR to negative bus - fused.
> 
> Output from switch to starter, another to DC panel. Alternator output to positive house bus.
> 
> If you keep all wiring the same size - say 2/0 - the only fusing required is the MRBF's on each bank's positive post plus a lower amperage fuse at switch in cable to panel or you could fuse individually off the bus. Fusing in smaller wires - monitor cables, ACR negative - would be needed as well.
> 
> A small fuse panel can be added for 24/7 items such as bilge pumps. Wire positive from house bus and run negative from bus after shunt.
> 
> I wrote this quickly so may have missed something.
> 
> But after this, which would not take long, you would know where every wire goes and each connection would be done properly. It would be neat and there would not be any extra wires you don't know about. If there was a problem you would both know where to look and have little trouble figuring it out.
> 
> Currently you are not really learning a system but trying to understand a rats nest - never easy.


Thanks Miti. This really helps - the kind of instructions I need. I'll start working through it.

PS - In your set-up, would the positive side of the solar charger go into the positive busbar at the house bank? And, if so, how would you also get the solar charging over into the starter battery?


----------



## Minnewaska

smackdaddy said:


> First, yes Minne - I fully understand that electrical problems are very often a leading cause of boat fires (I assume mechanical/fuel issues are right up there as well). .......


You assume incorrectly, that's why I didn't think MS was being overly dramatic.

Electrical systems are the cause of 55% of all fires, meaning they are not just the leading cause, but more likely than all others combined. Within the category of electrical system causes, DC shorts make up roughly 2/3rds of all electrical fires.

Next on the list is engine overheating, which is 24% of fires. Fuel leak is only 8%.

Why Boats Catch Fire - Seaworthy - BoatUS


----------



## Don L

In my time on a 20+ year old Navy submarine we have quite a few fires. They were 100% electrical and none were cables or connectors. They also 100% put themselves out once the breakers to whatever it was tripped and the "fire" went out. Meanwhile with all the holes in the boat for seawater there was only 1 minor case of flooding (wouldn't have been an issue if we hadn't been so deep at the time, which we weren't for long).


----------



## smackdaddy

Minnewaska said:


> You assume incorrectly, that's why I didn't think MS was being overly dramatic.
> 
> Electrical systems are the cause of 55% of all fires, meaning they are not just the leading cause, but more likely than all others combined. Within the category of electrical system causes, DC shorts make up roughly 2/3rds of all electrical fires.
> 
> Next on the list is engine overheating, which is 24% of fires. Fuel leak is only 8%.
> 
> Why Boats Catch Fire - Seaworthy - BoatUS


I think we're probably talking past each other here.

What's in that report is essentially what I said in my post...that electrical fires are followed pretty closely by mechanical fires (such as engine overheating), fuel, etc. They are "right up there". So I understand the percentages, I was just saying that these things are at the top of the list...which they are.

In any case, that's not the point I was making regarding Maine's comment. So carry on.


----------



## mitiempo

smackdaddy said:


> PS - In your set-up, would the positive side of the solar charger go into the positive busbar at the house bank? And, if so, how would you also get the solar charging over into the starter battery?


Yes - the ACR will allow the start battery to get any current it needs.


----------



## smackdaddy

mitiempo said:


> Yes - the ACR will allow the start battery to get any current it needs.


Awesome. Thank you Miti.


----------



## chall03

Maine and Miti are of course right(and I also add my note of thanks to them for the expertise they bring) yet as a fellow owner of a 25 year old boat pragmatism forces me to agree with you Smack.

There are definitely things on my boat that are _less_ safe than they _should_ be yet I aim at all times to try and make everything as safe as it _can_ be.

All of my boat issues were likewise inherited problems, yet the joy of boat ownership is such that the moment _Iolanthe _became ours and I the skipper they were instantly all of mine to solve and the consequences of not doing so mine to live with.

I guess it is about prioritizing.

Except of course Eric Kaufman prioritized as well...

He spent quite some time and effort methodically installing self steering (A Hydrovane, the quote for ours was 6k) something very commendably bluewatery yet as a keen observer pointed out in the forums he had also just done a 'quick fix' on his hull deck joint that may have played a significant role in his boat's undoing at sea.

I wonder if he just did the 'quick fix' because he ran out of time trying to _perfectly_ and _professionally_ install his Hydrovane?

FWIW I ignored my most of my messy 12V wiring for a good year and instead spent money/time on new seacocks, new rig, new lifelines and meeting ISAF offshore safety regs  We went cruising and did ok so we were either right........or lucky.


----------



## smackdaddy

Okay - per the above feedback, I've started cleaning everything up. I got the negative busbar in and moved everything over then got all the negative cabling squared away on the house bank and the starter battery...










It's definitely looking a lot cleaner - but I still need to get the positive cabling finished up. I've ordered more +/- cables to ensure that I've got the same gauge throughout and that it's all marine-grade - and that all the old-nasty stuff (except for the negative from the engine and the negative for the panel) will be gone..

And now the LinkPro seems to be locked in...










However, in testing the difference between what I'm seeing on the LinkPro and what the multimeter is reading on the actual batteries - I'm seeing a difference of about .5-.8 volts (the LinkPro is a bit higher). Is that normal?

One funny note - I went into West Marine today here in Kemah to get the MRBF fuses. I ask the guy how I should size them and he asked why I needed them. I explained the advice I'd gotten here and he said, "Geez, you hear that kind of stuff all the time on forums. You don't need fuses. You have fuses and breakers all throughout your boat. And the battery cables are not going to suddenly melt. Save your money."

Now that was funny.

We also got the companionway screen that the boys helped build in place and it rocks...










Oh - and another fun surprise today was that the forward bilge was full of holding tank stew. The joker valve had apparently given up the ghost and the toilet had completely overflowed into the shower bilge. Seriously nasty.

Back to West Marine. Once I discovered that a joker valve is $80 and the bottom seal/flapper is another $20 - and a new entire flush unit is only $109, I went with the new unit.

I was a seriously nasty cleanup - but we got the new unit in and we're back in business.


----------



## MedSailor

Always cheaper and easier to buy and install an entirely new $hitter. 

Glad that one failed on you at the dock and not at sea. uke

MedSailor


----------



## chall03

We tried to warn you that Hunters are full of crap


----------



## Maine Sail

smackdaddy said:


> One funny note - I went into West Marine today here in Kemah to get the MRBF fuses. I ask the guy how I should size them and he asked why I needed them. I explained the advice I'd gotten here and he said, "Geez, you hear that kind of stuff all the time on forums. *You don't need fuses. You have fuses and breakers all throughout your boat. And the battery cables are not going to suddenly melt. Save your money."*
> 
> Now that was funny.


Oh surprise, another knucklehead who works at West Marine giving out blatantly ignorant advice. Next time you are in there please ask him what his _qualifications_ are to have said that? Probably a retired proof-reader at the M&M's factory. _"Damn another typo W&W."_

Ask him what the short circuit current is a 100Ah Northstar battery is, you know the ones WM sells. Now ask him what the short circuit current is for four of them in a house bank? Then ask him if he thinks 4 GA wire shorted can handle the current from a shorted 400Ah battery bank....

On second thought, forget it... This guys is so cluelessly ignorant he won't get it anyway.....



smackdaddy said:


> Oh - and another fun surprise today was that the forward bilge was full of holding tank stew. The joker valve had apparently given up the ghost and the toilet had completely overflowed into the shower bilge. Seriously nasty.
> 
> Back to West Marine. Once I discovered that a joker valve is $80 and the bottom seal/flapper is another $20 - and a new entire flush unit is only $109, I went with the new unit.
> 
> I was a seriously nasty cleanup - but we got the new unit in and we're back in business.


The joker valve is not designed nor intended to overcome improper plumbing... If your holding tank could back fill the head you have an improperly plumbed system..

You need a high point and 1.5" siphon break between the head outlet and tank or this WILL happen again.......


----------



## smackdaddy

Okay - I'm making some progress. Here is where things started...














































Then I got things to here...



















And now we're here...



















I've ordered the fuses - so that's next. Thanks for the advice Maine and Miti.


----------



## mitiempo

smackdaddy said:


> I've ordered the fuses - so that's next.


Have you removed the old shunt to the left of the ACR? It would have been for an older ammeter.


----------



## smackdaddy

No not yet. The reason is that it has two smaller wire that I've not yet traced. 

I think they probably go to the panel's old voltage meter but I'm not sure yet. 

But I did get rid of the redundant cables so it's much cleaner. 

One step at a time.


----------



## mitiempo

smackdaddy said:


> ..... it has two smaller wire that I've not yet traced.
> 
> I think they probably go to the panel's old voltage meter but I'm not sure yet.


If there was an ammeter installed the 2 wires would have to have been run to the display.


----------



## hellsop

smackdaddy said:


> But I did get rid of the redundant cables so it's much cleaner.
> 
> One step at a time.


It does look a heck of a lot neater.


----------



## smackdaddy

Okay - one other question on the fusing...

I currently have a mix of original 4 gauge and new 2 gauge cabling. The 4 gauge stuff still runs from the switches to the engine/alternator/etc. - and to the panel. I'm not going to have time to swap all that out before we leave.

So, per Maine's chart on his website (hopefully I read it correctly) to be safe I ordered both 225a (for the 2 gauge) and 175a (for the 4 gauge). My assumption is that I'm fusing for the thinner wire. Is that correct? Should I install the 175s for now on the house and starter until I replace all the 4 gauge?


----------



## IStream

smackdaddy said:


> Okay - one other question on the fusing...
> 
> I currently have a mix of original 4 gauge and new 2 gauge cabling. The 4 gauge stuff still runs from the switches to the engine/alternator/etc. - and to the panel. I'm not going to have time to swap all that out before we leave.
> 
> So, per Maine's chart on his website (hopefully I read it correctly) to be safe I ordered both 225a (for the 2 gauge) and 175a (for the 4 gauge). My assumption is that I'm fusing for the thinner wire. Is that correct? Should I install the 175s for now on the house and starter until I replace all the 4 gauge?


Yes. You always want the fuse to be the weakest link in the circuit. If you put too big a fuse in, the 4 gauge wire will be the weakest link. Once you replace the 4 gauge with 2 gauge, you can upgrade the weakest link (fuse) too.


----------



## MedSailor

IStream said:


> Yes. *You always want the fuse to be the weakest link *in the circuit. If you put too big a fuse in, the 4 gauge wire will be the weakest link. Once you replace the 4 gauge with 2 gauge, you can upgrade the weakest link (fuse) too.


----------



## smackdaddy

MedSailor said:


>


Is that the chick that boarded your boat? Heh-heh.


----------



## mitiempo

IStream said:


> Yes. You always want the fuse to be the weakest link in the circuit. If you put too big a fuse in, the 4 gauge wire will be the weakest link. Once you replace the 4 gauge with 2 gauge, you can upgrade the weakest link (fuse) too.


Agreed, but with 4 gauge the fuse could well be too small to avoid nuisance blows when starting. Best to upgrade any cables related to starting to a larger size. In my opinion 2 gauge is too small for a starting circuit. I usually use 2/0, but sometimes 1/0 for starting circuits - all battery cabling actually. This allows for a larger fuse that will never blow under load, only in a short circuit situation. This means both banks have to be wired with the same gauge as they both can be used for starting. Engines start a lot faster with heavier wire as well. I use smaller gauge wire for the panel feed. Alternator output wiring to the house bank is sized for as little loss as possible if the alt has an internal regulator. I have used 1/0 or 2/0 for alternator output if the run is longer than a few feet.


----------



## smackdaddy

mitiempo said:


> Agreed, but with 4 gauge the fuse could well be too small to avoid nuisance blows when starting.


This is exactly what I was concerned about.



mitiempo said:


> Best to upgrade any cables related to starting to a larger size. In my opinion 2 gauge is too small for a starting circuit. I usually use 2/0, but sometimes 1/0 for starting circuits - all battery cabling actually. This allows for a larger fuse that will never blow under load, only in a short circuit situation. This means both banks have to be wired with the same gauge as they both can be used for starting. Engines start a lot faster with heavier wire as well.


I know the above is best-case. But I just can't do best-case all the way through right now. The engine has been starting very well for years with the existing 4 gauge. So everything I've done thus far is just an improvement over that. Not best-case, but definitely better.

So, in this case, would you use the higher amp fuse (where there has been none before) to avoid the nuisance blow?



mitiempo said:


> I use smaller gauge wire for the panel feed. Alternator output wiring to the house bank is sized for as little loss as possible if the alt has an internal regulator. I have used 1/0 or 2/0 for alternator output if the run is longer than a few feet.


But I assume you are not fusing for that panel feed - but instead for the heavier gauge cable at the alternator and batteries?


----------



## mitiempo

smackdaddy said:


> This is exactly what I was concerned about.
> 
> I know the above is best-case. But I just can't do best-case all the way through right now. The engine has been starting very well for years with the existing 4 gauge. So everything I've done thus far is just an improvement over that. Not best-case, but definitely better.
> 
> So, in this case, would you use the higher amp fuse (where there has been none before) to avoid the nuisance blow?
> 
> But I assume you are not fusing for that panel feed - but instead for the heavier gauge cable at the alternator and batteries?


Sure it started for years with the 4 gauge, but without a fuse to nuisance blow. All you have to change is the positive cables from the post to the switch and the run from switch to starter. The negative cables from post to bus and block.

Panel feed if smaller gauge gets its own fuse.


----------



## smackdaddy

Yeah I know. Thanks.


----------



## Noelex

A big danger with the electrical system is shorting out large cables. These carry enough current to start fires.

One of the first things I would do is secure those large cables with some cable ties so if the wire comes off the battery terminal, or breaks at the crimp the wire is retained in position where it is not likely to do any harm. It will also support the wire and reduce flexing which is often a cause of breakage.

You have a lot of wing nuts on the battery terminals. They are difficult to torque sufficiently and have a habit of working loose. if you keep them at least in the short term while you are applying the cable ties to retain the wires put a small cable tie going between the "wings" and then around the wire. It is not ideal practice, but at least in the short term it will reduce the risk of the wing nut working loose. Think of it like mousing your shackles. (Keep in mind with some electrical problems enough heat can be generated to melt cable ties so this not foolproof).

Cable ties are cheap and quick to apply.

Here is a photo to illustrate the use on the wing nut:


----------



## Solar54

Hey Smack,
Your battery box is looking great. If possible I would try to size the fuses to the gauge of wire, even if it is temporary. Hopefully your fuse holders can hold a bigger fuse at a later date when you get around to finishing your re-wiring. Fuses are there to keep your wires from catching fire. If you get a lot of nuisance blows, that will tell you which wires you need to replace next. Putting in a larger fuse for nuisance blows, while not ideal, is better than what you had. I would only use the larger temporary fuses in a circuit that has a quick surge, like a starter motor. If it is more of a constant load then your risk goes up.

You can't get it all done at once. Every now and then you just got to go sailing.


----------



## IStream

Tripping is a function of both time and current, and varies with fuse style. For example, a 175A ANL Blue Sea fuse can tolerate 500+A for a full second without blowing (see the chart here: https://www.bluesea.com/products/5128/ANL_Fuse_-_175_Amp).


----------



## mitiempo

IStream said:


> Tripping is a function of both time and current, and varies with fuse style. For example, a 175A ANL Blue Sea fuse can tolerate 500+A for a full second without blowing (see the chart here: https://www.bluesea.com/products/5128/ANL_Fuse_-_175_Amp).


Sure it can but Smack's engine will not start in one second - especially with such small cabling.


----------



## aeventyr60

How many spare fuses should Smakky carry?


----------



## smackdaddy

I'm starting to wonder why the hell I should "fix" something that hasn't been "broken" for 26 years. At some point it gets a little ridiculous.


----------



## MedSailor

smackdaddy said:


> I'm starting to wonder why the hell I should "fix" something that hasn't been "broken" for 26 years. At some point it gets a little ridiculous.


Agreed. It's tough to sort out "good enough for government work" from "been lucky to get away with it."

Just remember, it's always a huge flurry of work before you go, but once you go, you can't do anything else, so don't worry about it and enjoy the trip.

MedSailor


----------



## Don L

smackdaddy said:


> I'm starting to wonder why the hell I should "fix" something that hasn't been "broken" for 26 years. At some point it gets a little ridiculous.


Remember that "not broken" really just means "currently working" on a boat. In this case you need to consider you are talking of 26 years of electrical "currently working" items and there is a life to how long they will continue to live.

Not an emergency, but sometime probably deserving of a plan.


----------



## Maine Sail

smackdaddy said:


> Okay - one other question on the fusing...
> 
> I currently have a mix of original 4 gauge and new 2 gauge cabling. The 4 gauge stuff still runs from the switches to the engine/alternator/etc. - and to the panel. I'm not going to have time to swap all that out before we leave.
> 
> So, per Maine's chart on his website (hopefully I read it correctly) to be safe I ordered both 225a (for the 2 gauge) and 175a (for the 4 gauge). My assumption is that I'm fusing for the thinner wire. Is that correct? Should I install the 175s for now on the house and starter until I replace all the 4 gauge?


For most small AUX diesels I recommend 250A - 300A+ fuses to avoid nuisance trips.

Keep in mind that adding a fuse is already above and beyond what you had, which was NOTHING. Even if slightly larger it will still trip into a dead short. I have tripped 15' of 8GA wire on a 300A MRBF using a massive LiFePO4 battery bank and the fuse tripped in microseconds and the wire never even got warm to the touch. Not all _shorts_ start as a _crowbar_ short but once you get metal to metal they tend to instantly weld, then trip.

Any fuse even if larger than it _technically should be_ is safer than _no fuse at all_.

The ABYC allows you to go to 150% of the max ampacity table if necessary. Ideal? No, but considerably safer than having no fuse at all.

#4 wire is kite string and really has no place as main battery cabling on a boat of your size but hey she's _production_ and this is how many builders _cut corners_ before they built to the "standards"...........:wink:grin


----------



## smackdaddy

Cool. Thanks Maine. I'll use a 300a on the start battery for now until I can get around to replacing the last remaining 4 gauge. I know it's not ideal by any means - but as you say, it's better than no fuse at all, and I don't really want to have tons of nuisance blows.

As for the "standards", I completely understand what you're saying. But for regular guys like me - 26 years of major-problem-free operation is a standard as well.

Anyway - thanks very much. That's the kind of advice I needed.


----------



## Brent Swain

It wouldn't take whole lot of work or expense to turn those goofy little trip wires on a Hunter into proper lifelines. The tubing is a standard size, and putting proper , 35 inch high lifelines on could be life saving.


----------



## aeventyr60

Brent Swain said:


> It wouldn't take whole lot of work or expense to turn those goofy little trip wires on a Hunter into proper lifelines. The tubing is a standard size, and putting proper , 35 inch high lifelines on could be life saving.


I recently replaced the trip wire height stanchions on an Islander 44 I'm refitting, boy what a huge difference to have lifelines that are at hand level when walking on deck. An easy fix....


----------



## smackdaddy

Lifelines that tall look seriously goofy. I prefer a sailing aesthetic not a retirement home aesthetic. Sorry.


----------



## aeventyr60

You might be lucky to make it to the retirement home....but then again you'll be harnessed in on a short tether....


----------



## jerryrlitton

smackdaddy said:


> Lifelines that tall look seriously goofy. I prefer a sailing aesthetic not a retirement home aesthetic. Sorry.


Those short goofy stanchions that are aesthetically pleasing are supports for trip wires. You may not be the last man standing. Better make sure you and yours are harnessed in....seriously. However between you and me, if you really wanted something aesthetically pleasing i would have gone with something with a far better row-away factor.


----------



## Capt Len

Long tall strong stanchions are so ugly and often derogatively commented on by passing yachts mid ocean in heavy weather.


----------



## smackdaddy

aeventyr60 said:


> You might be lucky to make it to the retirement home...


Not exactly on my bucket list. Heh.


----------



## aeventyr60

I figure I'll get hit by a bus or fall into a third world sewer after a night on the town with a long legged stanchion...


----------



## Brent Swain

Capt Len said:


> Long tall strong stanchions are so ugly and often derogatively commented on by passing yachts mid ocean in heavy weather.


Goofy ,short stanchions are derogatively commented on by sailors overboard, as the boat sails away from them. I'd rather not be the sailor doing that.When I spoke of proper stanchions elsewhere on this site, Smackdaddy said that 38 inches is minimum. When I pointed out that his beloved Hunters only had 24 inch stanchions, he did a flip, and started saying that 24 inches is maximum, and that stanchions should be so short that you should be forced to crawl around on your hands and knees anytime you go forward , like a rat in a sewer. 
Your safety, or whether you live or die, is of no concern to passing snobs. It is extremely foolish to allow oneself to become a slave of the foolishness of snobs.
Lifelines are almost invisible on a yacht from more than a few meters away. Risking ones life, and that of ones crew, to appease passing snobs, is incredibly dense, bad seamanship.
A friend with a Corbin 39, got into a scrapyard where they were dismantling buses. He salvaged the handrails off some, took them to his boat and, with a hacksaw and a drill ,within an hour, had solid lifelines all the way around, for $1.50 a pound.
There is only one stock plastic boat with such proper lifelines, the Amel.


----------



## Brent Swain

aeventyr60 said:


> I recently replaced the trip wire height stanchions on an Islander 44 I'm refitting, boy what a huge difference to have lifelines that are at hand level when walking on deck. An easy fix....


By increasing your comfort level ,higher lifelines also have a way of making the side decks seem a whole lot wider.
Crotch high is easier to climb over than lower, because you can balance yourself, without stooping to reach them.
I remember a Valiant 32 , with a huge part of the side deck width taken up by a ridiculously wide bulwark , with the stanchions even further inboard of that ( the kind of abysmal detail decisions you get from a designer with little cruising experience.) Putting the stanchions on top of the bulwark would give you higher lifelines for a given stanchion length, or stronger stanchions for a given lifeline height, and nothing to stubb and break your toes on at deck level.


----------



## Capt Len

Matt, big danger there in Thailand. Late at night ,hard to tell leggy stanchions from leggy stallions. Friend of mine once,,,,, oops ,too much drift.


----------



## Capt Len

Short stubby people may feel safe with low down life lines and admire the visual effect. My life lines were 5/8 dacron mounted high on strong SS mounted on a 10 " bulwark. Not the least bit emasculating And easy to grip when needed. When I was up and out on topsail yards with standard sized manropes I was very aware of my abnormal CG. and build accordingly.


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> When I spoke of proper stanchions elsewhere on this site, Smackdaddy said that 38 inches is minimum. When I pointed out that his beloved Hunters only had 24 inch stanchions, he did a flip, and started saying that 24 inches is maximum, and that stanchions should be so short that you should be forced to crawl around on your hands and knees anytime you go forward , like a rat in a sewer.


Hahahahahaha. No, no, no dude. I said *YOUR* boat should have a _minimum_ of 38" and even 72" which would be better - with chain link all around. I mean - if you're that concerned about falling over, then why stop at your measly 36" with a tube at the top? That's just plain dangerous - _for you_.

Your reading comprehension is lousy!


----------



## Capt Len

Smack, regardless of whose reading skills are lacking,that's over the top rail. and as far as I'm concerned ,you're losing credibility . Still short of a million, so carry on.


----------



## RTB

Smack, are you fueled up and about ready to get going? What's your approximate date to cut the dock lines?

Ralph


----------



## smackdaddy

Getting very close.


----------



## ccriders

smackdaddy said:


> Getting very close.


Galactic time or mortal time?


----------



## Brent Swain

RTB said:


> Smack, are you fueled up and about ready to get going? What's your approximate date to cut the dock lines?
> 
> Ralph


He's an old guy, and it hasn't happened yet, so it probably never will. Until many years after it has ,he remains a rank beginner, and thus a poor source of advice. Especially compared to someone who has been cruising, mostly full time, for over 43 years.


----------



## ccriders

Brent, 
That was a joke. Can you unlike my post?
John


----------



## IStream

Brent Swain said:


> He's an old guy, and it hasn't happened yet, so it probably never will. Until many years after it has ,he remains a rank beginner, and thus a poor source of advice. Especially compared to someone who has been cruising, mostly full time, for over 43 years.


I've seen highly questionable advice from people with over 43 years of cruising experience. What kind of source is that?

I respect your gumption and achievement in designing and building your own boat for your own wants and needs as well as those who share them. However, you don't seem to know the limits of your expertise and, worse, you don't let it stop you from giving wrong or even dangerous advice.

When I was younger I was told I was "often wrong but never in doubt". It stung but it was true and I've tried ever since not to overstep the bounds of my knowledge where others are concerned. It was great life advice.


----------



## chall03

Brent Swain said:


> He's an old guy, and it hasn't happened yet, so it probably never will. Until many years after it has ,he remains a rank beginner, and thus a poor source of advice. Especially compared to someone who has been cruising, mostly full time, for over 43 years.


No doubting what you have done Brent.

What I do doubt however is the measure of the man it has made you.


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## smackdaddy

Well, the boys are away at summer camp, so I'm spending most of this week at the boat ticking items off the prep list. Here's a quick run-down.

I added the fuses to the house and start banks and you'll notice some nice finishing touches a'la Maine...



















Those of you with a particularly astute eye will notice that the negative cable on the starter is not AWG. I just got those in and will replace when I can.

Next was a pretty big job that I've needed to do since I bought the boat. Soon after we got it, we noticed a small leak at the forward hatch over the v-berth when it rained. We've been making do by placing a bucket under the leak while away from the boat. But I didn't want to go off-shore with that. So, I tore into it...










I used this stuff to re-bed it...










I'd seen glowing reviews about it and, though I'd looked into doing it with butyl tape, thought this would give me a better seal as the frame of the hatch is ever so slightly twisted near one hinge (the one that leaked).

One big mistake on this job was not taping the INSIDE edge. You can see the tape at the deck - all nice and neat, but I didn't think about the vertical edge of the liner inside. It took a lot of clean up and patience, but I got it all looking beautiful.

While I was in the v-berth, I added a mounting rack for our drone and a fan to keep the boys cool(er)...



















You can see some of the mold left behind from the bucket catching the water and evaporating. Cleaning that up now.

I then replaced the solar vents with nice new ones - and replaced the insect netting on the interior side with no-see-um stuff...










The next thing was to finish up locking down all doors, etc. The nav table top opens on both sides so I needed a nice looking lockdown solution. A few bucks at Home Depot for vertical slide bolts for doors, and we got this very nautical looking contraption...



















Works great.

Then these on the lazarette doors...










Finally, I finished installing *The Eisberg™*. This is the wooden rail that everyone uses to secure their jerry cans on deck...the type of storage solution that JonEisberg is always advocating (along with full cockpit enclosures) - so I thought I'd name it after him. He'll be delighted if you will all pass that along among the cruising world.

In his honor, I also installed a fold-able fender rack on one of the starboard stanchions (trying to get as much stuff on the rail as possible). We will use them when we're in the ICW to hold 3 fenders. When offshore, I'll store those below and fold up that rack to keep the decks cleaner. Pretty cool gizmo.

Here's what the whole thing looks like...










Ready to cruise like a Snowbird baby!

Still a few projects to get done today and tomorrow - but the list is actually getting shorter!


----------



## RTB

I love it! Jon will be proud. 

Ralph


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## MedSailor

The drone, wall mounted as a fan to keep the boys cool. Quad-fan. Nice....

MedSailor


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## smackdaddy

Well that was an interesting afternoon. After I posted the above, a storm blew through with gusts hitting the high 50s. I caught this one on camera, but not the higher ones...










The rain came down in buckets (along with hail)...which was cool because I needed to see if my re-bedding work was going to hold up. And I'm happy to report not a single drop of water came in to the now-glorious v-berth...










...or through the new solar vents with uber-hip disco lighting...










Dry as a bone.

I think this lady is just about ready to sail. I love our boat. Truly.


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## smackdaddy

Now that I've gotten through most of my 12v stuff I will admit something most sailing men would never admit....I keep looking for a billowing cloud of smoke when I head back to the marina from dinner. That's seat of the pants my friends.

So far, thank God, no smoke. But I'm holding my breath with each and every modification. It's brutal.


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## MedSailor

As a wooden boat owner I would look for my mast and make sure it was at the right height as I drove up to the marina (i.e. it hadn't sunk). Took me 10 years to finally stop doing that. 

I do still ALWAYS gaze at the water line as I approach the boat st be sure she's not floating low. Guess the wooden boat PTSD isn't cured yet..... 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk


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## RTB

smackdaddy said:


> Well that was an interesting afternoon. After I posted the above, a storm blew through with gusts hitting the high 50s. I caught this one on camera, but not the higher ones...


Dude....forget the electrical stuff. Mother nature has her ways of confusing you. Maybe a challenge or two as well. Sure, you've got heavy weather sailing stuff down, but anchoring is where it's at, because that's when she likes to sneak up on you.

We've never had a scary moment offshore, but quite a few at anchor. Please don't ignore what I'm saying, unless you plan on taking a slip everywhere, as you travel. I wish someone had given me advice before we left. You will experience those same storms at anchor, sooner or later. It's pretty stressful, and can last for hours.

Ralph


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## smackdaddy

RTB said:


> Dude....forget the electrical stuff. Mother nature has her ways of confusing you. Maybe a challenge or two as well. Sure, you've got heavy weather sailing stuff down, but anchoring is where it's at, because that's when she likes to sneak up on you.
> 
> We've never had a scary moment offshore, but quite a few at anchor. Please don't ignore what I'm saying, unless you plan on taking a slip everywhere, as you travel. I wish someone had given me advice before we left. You will experience those same storms at anchor, sooner or later. It's pretty stressful, and can last for hours.
> 
> Ralph


Any tips you could give would be awesome Ralph. Seriously. Do you have some things you can point me to on your blog?

I am actually a bit nervous about this. I have complete confidence in our anchor (a Mantus) - but the more I know about the process the better I'll feel.

We will be anchoring the majority of the time. So it's important - especially know these kinds of thunderstorms will be very common where we're going.


----------



## MedSailor

smackdaddy said:


> Any tips you could give would be awesome Ralph. Seriously. Do you have some things you can point me to on your blog?
> 
> I am actually a bit nervous about this. I have complete confidence in our anchor (a Mantus) - but the more I know about the process the better I'll feel.
> 
> We will be anchoring the majority of the time. So it's important - especially know these kinds of thunderstorms will be very common where we're going.


You didn't ask me, but I'll give you my 2c. There are a lot of things that can be used and can be important in anchoring, but the BASIC IMPORTANT STUFF is this:

1. Use lots of scope. Err on the side of more not less. Scope is your friend. Scope is the difference between pulling an anchor out (like when you're ready to go) and it digging in. LOTS. OF. SCOPE.

2. Power set the anchor in reverse. POWER set it. Don't be afraid you'll pull it out. If you can, you've got a tenuous anchoring situation. In the middle of the night, when the wind pipes up, you'll be glad that you held her at 2/3 throttle in reverse for 30 full seconds and saw that she wasn't moving an inch.

3. Use a good anchor. You got that covered.

I strongly believe that the rest of the whole kit and caboodle of anchoring is less important than the 3 fundamentals above.

MedSailor


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## IStream

MedSailor said:


> You didn't ask me, but I'll give you my 2c. There are a lot of things that can be used and can be important in anchoring, but the BASIC IMPORTANT STUFF is this:
> 
> 1. Use lots of scope. Err on the side of more not less. Scope is your friend. Scope is the difference between pulling an anchor out (like when you're ready to go) and it digging in. LOTS. OF. SCOPE.
> 
> 2. Power set the anchor in reverse. POWER set it. Don't be afraid you'll pull it out. If you can, you've got a tenuous anchoring situation. In the middle of the night, when the wind pipes up, you'll be glad that you held her at 2/3 throttle in reverse for 30 full seconds and saw that she wasn't moving an inch.
> 
> 3. Use a good anchor. You got that covered.
> 
> I strongly believe that the rest of the whole kit and caboodle of anchoring is less important than the 3 fundamentals above.
> 
> MedSailor


Agreed. To elaborate a bit, scope should be calculated based on depth (corrected for the depth of the transducer), height of the bow roller, and maximum tide expected during the stay.

#4 for me would be to make sure you've got some elasticity in the rode, either in the form of a nylon rode or a snubber.


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## smackdaddy

Thanks Med. I'm using rope rode right now so my plan is always a minimum of 7:1. I also have a second anchor (danforth) ready to go if something bigger comes up. And I will definitely go for the wicked set.

When those near 60 gusts were hitting the other night, it made me realize how important this anchoring stuff is. I've never been at anchor in one of those. And that's some serious wind, brotha.


----------



## ScottUK

5) know (if you can) what type of bottom you are dealing with.


----------



## smackdaddy

ScottUK said:


> 5) know (if you can) what type of bottom you are dealing with.


Agreed. That's where Waterway Guide Explorer has been so valuable to us in our planning. Great info.

I'll let everyone know how that info holds up as we go along.


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## Don L

Get more chain, don't leave it in the anchor locker as it doesn't you any good there!


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## Minnewaska

When I had rode spliced into chain down by the anchor, I couldn't sleep in a tough blow wondering how that rode to chain splice was doing. The proverbial weakest link. Chafe at the deck is critical too. All chain and I sleep like a baby. Well, unless the winds clock 180 very quickly.


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## RTB

We've got 100' chain plus another 100' nylon. Also, a 30' snubber. In a blow, I'll have 10:1 scope out. So, first off you need to choose your spot to drop that Mantus, making sure you have swing room if there are other boats around. Finding your spot takes practice, and you'll get more confidence as you anchor more and more.

A couple of things no one has mentioned yet. One, do not have strain on your windlass. Cleat off your rode. You'll damage the windlass otherwise. You may already know this, but just in case.

I'd like to see you get chain, at least 100'. Several reasons really, but the main thing is it puts more weight on the bottom. Another reason is, with a snubber, you decrease the angle of pull on the anchor. This illustration is a bit exaggerated, and you don't want the lazy loop actually on the bottom, but you get the idea here -










Do you have any chain on the anchor now? If not, how is the rode attached? Got any pics for us to criticize? heh-heh

Another thing to consider is shackles. The only ones you'll see locally (WM, etc.) will be Chinese junk. Get a good Campbell or Crosby made in USA. Also, if you do buy chain, it needs to be the right size for your windlass. Have Nick at West Marine Rigging make you up the snubber with the chain hook spliced on. He did mine and it has been solid.

Not to worry you, but because of where you are going, and the time you are going, you'll see plenty of T-storms almost every day. Have the anchor down before the weather turns, because trying to get a set when the boat is being blown back, is hit or miss. It can also be dangerous. Be careful where you put your hands. I don't have a windlass, and have nearly lost a finger a time or two.

Ralph


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## smackdaddy

Thanks Ralph. Very good advice.

I currently have 30' of chain, and 300' of 3-strand rode. So I have plenty for scope. The rode has a spliced steel eyelet with a big shackle (with seizing wire) connecting the chain.

We have a manual windlass that has both the line winch and the chain winch. The current plan for retrieval is to have my older boy (who's a good driver) easing the boat forward as I take in the rode on the line winch by hand, then we'll use the windlass to bring in the chain and secure the anchor. Does that make sense?

I plan to take them out for a day of practice before we head out.

Eventually I'll get all chain...but I thought it wise for now to go with something that the boys can handle themselves in a pinch. It's a tough call.


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## Don L

smackdaddy said:


> Eventually I'll get all chain...but I thought it wise for now to go with something that the boys can handle themselves in a pinch. It's a tough call.


Far as the boys handling it doesn't matter how much chain you have. All that matters is the depth at a 1:1 scope for pulling it up.

Do you have a windlass? If you do that splice at 30' chain is going to be a big PITA as it goes through each time right when the anchor is coming off the bottom.


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## MedSailor

Where you're anchoring it's usually shallow right? That means you'll only be pulling up at one time, as much chain as the depth of the water. So, if it's 20ft deep for example, and you have 200ft of chain out, you still only have to lift 20ft or so at a time. So you could bring in large amounts of chain by hand.

A chain stopper is a great "poor man's windlass" and is cheap and easy to install. It works like a rope clutch for chain. Imagine hauling up your mainsail with and without a rope clutch on the halyard. Now imagine hauling in your anchor with and without a chain stopper.










Another fun trick, especially combined with a chain stopper, is to run the anchor rope directly from your bow roller to your mast mounted halyard winch. It's usually a direct lead and it gives you a winch to work with and you can winch up as much as you need, right until the chain gets to the mast. A good argument for a "J" length of chain. 

BTW there's nothing wrong with rope, but all things (except retrieval) are easier with chain. You have more flexibility with choosing a spot since you swing less, and you don't have to worry about well meaning folks boarding your boat while you're gone. 

You do make a good point about something the boys can handle. That's smart and safe IMHO.

MedSailor


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## RTB

smackdaddy said:


> We have a manual windlass that has both the line winch and the chain winch. The current plan for retrieval is to have my older boy (who's a good driver) easing the boat forward as I take in the rode on the line winch by hand, then we'll use the windlass to bring in the chain and secure the anchor. Does that make sense?
> 
> I plan to take them out for a day of practice before we head out.


Unless you plan to use headsets, work out simple hand signals for forward, neutral, and reverse. It beats yelling over engine noise, and should keep things calm at the helm and foredeck. Good luck.

Ralph


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## smackdaddy

MedSailor said:


> Where you're anchoring it's usually shallow right? That means you'll only be pulling up at one time, as much chain as the depth of the water. So, if it's 20ft deep for example, and you have 200ft of chain out, you still only have to lift 20ft or so at a time. So you could bring in large amounts of chain by hand.
> 
> A chain stopper is a great "poor man's windlass" and is cheap and easy to install. It works like a rope clutch for chain. Imagine hauling up your mainsail with and without a rope clutch on the halyard. Now imagine hauling in your anchor with and without a chain stopper.


Yeah - every anchorage we've pegged all the way to Pensacola never gets much more than 12' deep. It's all pretty shallow up here.



MedSailor said:


> Another fun trick, especially combined with a chain stopper, is to run the anchor rope directly from your bow roller to your mast mounted halyard winch. It's usually a direct lead and it gives you a winch to work with and you can winch up as much as you need, right until the chain gets to the mast. A good argument for a "J" length of chain.
> 
> BTW there's nothing wrong with rope, but all things (except retrieval) are easier with chain. You have more flexibility with choosing a spot since you swing less, and you don't have to worry about well meaning folks boarding your boat while you're gone.
> 
> You do make a good point about something the boys can handle. That's smart and safe IMHO.
> 
> MedSailor


Actually, the rode back to a winch is a great idea that I'd not thought of. All our lines run to the cockpit (so no mast winch) - but we can definitely run it back to the primary as a back-up.

Thanks dude.


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## Faster

RTB said:


> Unless you plan to use headsets, work out simple hand signals for forward, neutral, and reverse. It beats yelling over engine noise, and should keep things calm at the helm and foredeck. Good luck.
> 
> Ralph


It also greatly reduces your EQ* for the rest of the people in the bay as you anchor.

Nothing like listening to two people yelling at each other, not hearing each other, but the rest of us can clearly hear them both.

On second thought.... that IS some of the better entertainment around, so yell away :wink

*Entertainment quotient


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## smackdaddy

We've got walkies just for that purpose...but we'll yell anyway to annoy/entertain our neighbors.


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## RTB

smackdaddy said:


> We've got walkies just for that purpose...


Hands free?

Still good to have hand signals down. You just may not have time to grab those when you start dragging unexpectedly. Who starts the engine? Who goes forward to get the anchor up. Don't forget the deck light and spotlight (because it's pitch black of course). Stuff can happen quickly, especially in a crowded anchorage. You may only have seconds to get things sorted out before you drag into a nearby boat.

My wife's account of one such evening doesn't seem so frightening. She was terrified for about 2 hours, but she did a great job not hitting another boat. You just had to be there - 
Green Turtle Tales | sailing away with R & B

I think I must disagree with the "Good" holding rating in WWG http://www.waterwayguide.com/anchorage/2-984/green-turtle-cay-white-sound It's one of two places I have ever dragged, and I wasn't he only boat that dragged at either place (the other was in Nassau Harbor. Grass at both anchorages).

Ralph


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## MedSailor

smackdaddy said:


> Actually, the rode back to a winch is a great idea that I'd not thought of. All our lines run to the cockpit (so no mast winch) - but we can definitely run it back to the primary as a back-up.
> 
> Thanks dude.


A snatch block is sometimes needed to help out with a more direct lead. A regular block won't work because the line has to be led through it.

How about this for anchoring technique? Pull her up until she's snugged up tight and have the rope rode run to a cockpit winch. Break er out with the engine while you've got her on the cockpit winch and then winch the rest up from the cockpit.

Heck, why not do it all from the cockpit. :wink It could come in handy to have a single-handed option where you can quickly drive when the anchor breaks free.

MedSailor


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## smackdaddy

Here you go Ralph. Only the finest..


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## RTB

Way cool dude! We actually bought headsets (not as cool as yours) but have never used them. Really no need to talk. Forward, neutral, or reverse is all the person at the helm needs to know. Well, the anchor monkey does usually point toward where the chain runs. But it's usually like chasing your tail. You just go slow and be patient because the bow does it's happy dance away from the wind.

Ralph


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## ccriders

A pair of heavy duty gloves for the bow man, not those light weight sailor types made of fabric with no fingers.
Also, at 50+ knots you are into "storm anchor" sizing. What sizes are your anchors? Any rated for "storm" use? Three anchors would not be too many!
John
p.s. Why don't more people use Bahamian style anchoring when it gets crowded?


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## RTB

Yeah, now I use heavy leather work gloves.

I've seen 50 knots at anchor more than once. My Manson Supreme 35# is plenty if the holding is good. Just skip the places where there is a lot of Turtle Grass. We saw over 40 while at anchor a month ago here in Rockport (Mud Island anchorage). Chafe can be a concern if there is a lot of fetch, and things get bouncy. Put an extra line on the dinghy, and hope it doesn't blow over and dunk the OB.

Ralph


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## Brent Swain

IStream said:


> Agreed. To elaborate a bit, scope should be calculated based on depth (corrected for the depth of the transducer), height of the bow roller, and maximum tide expected during the stay.
> 
> #4 for me would be to make sure you've got some elasticity in the rode, either in the form of a nylon rode or a snubber.


I remember in my early 20s ,on my first trip thru the Marquesas. I could hear the anchor rode, all chain ,snubbing in the surge. As I walked foreward with a piece of nylon to eliminate the problem, I heard the chain break. The water was too murky to recover it diving. Luckily, I was able to make a grapnel out of rebar I found on the beach, which I dragged thru the area, and quickly found it. A grapnel is always a good thing to carry aboard . I have used mine several times, for just that use.
As soon as I got to New Zealand ,I quickly built several more anchors.
Even a relatively short piece of nylon on your chain can make a huge difference in a surge. Like the diference between hitting something with a steel hammer, and using a rubber one.
I was recently given some nylon climbing rope. Boy ,that stuff is almost as stretchy as elastic shock cord.


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## Brent Swain

Minnewaska said:


> When I had rode spliced into chain down by the anchor, I couldn't sleep in a tough blow wondering how that rode to chain splice was doing. The proverbial weakest link. Chafe at the deck is critical too. All chain and I sleep like a baby. Well, unless the winds clock 180 very quickly.


I just put the rope thru the first chain link and tie a knot in it. no chance of that ever slipping out. When I see any chafe , I push a bit more thru and tie a knot in it.
Been doing that for decades with no problems, in some quite severe winds. Works for ataching wire halyards to rope tails too.
For my drogue I have welded up an 8 inch cleat made to tie a line to and shackel on the end of a bit of chain. The chain goes thru the chock and clear of the hull ,where the rope begins, elimating all chance of chafe. Works for mooring lines too.


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## Brent Swain

[
A couple of things no one has mentioned yet. One, do not have strain on your windlass. Cleat off your rode. You'll damage the windlass otherwise. You may already know this, but just in case.

That is why I prefer to build my own windlass ,far stronger than any rode I will ever use, altho my mooring bits are good for 90 tons sheer strength.


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## Brent Swain

In the Pacific, the luxury of anchoring in only 20 ft is extremely rare. I carry a 30 lb ( one litre) of lead kellet. If I let the anchor hit the bottom before putting the kellet on, I only lift one at a time.


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## Brent Swain

Capt Len said:


> Smack, regardless of whose reading skills are lacking,that's over the top rail. and as far as I'm concerned ,you're losing credibility . Still short of a million, so carry on.


Smack likes to take quotes from other discusions ,including discusions of religion , to misrepresent as boat discusions , make up quotes, and drastically modify and take quotes out of context ,etc, and use them as quotes to attack people with.
Credibility? What credibility?


----------



## Brent Swain

IStream said:


> I've seen highly questionable advice from people with over 43 years of cruising experience. What kind of source is that?
> 
> I respect your gumption and achievement in designing and building your own boat for your own wants and needs as well as those who share them. However, you don't seem to know the limits of your expertise and, worse, you don't let it stop you from giving wrong or even dangerous advice.
> 
> When I was younger I was told I was "often wrong but never in doubt". It stung but it was true and I've tried ever since not to overstep the bounds of my knowledge where others are concerned. It was great life advice.


I have lost count of the number of times people have acused me of giving wrong or dangerouse advice , only to admit years later that "Jeeze Brent ,I wish I had listened to you!" After they had the neccesary experince to understand the point I had been making. One client used wire lifelines and loved them , until he went cruising on a boat I had put solid lifelines on. Until he had actually experienced them, he couldn't understand how good they felt. As soon as he got home ,he quickly replaced his wires with solid pipe.
Another, begining his cruise in a Foulks 39, was critical and derogatory of almost everything I did. As he cruised and gained experience, he began, one by one, adapting my ways of doing things . By the end of a circumnavigation , including a rounding of Cape Horn , he was saying how much better off he would have been if he had done it in one of my 36 footers.


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## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> Smack likes to take quotes from other discusions ,including discusions of religion , to misrepresent as boat discusions , make up quotes, and drastically modify and take quotes out of context ,etc, and use them as quotes to attack people with.


Now where exactly have I done that Brent? I think you're making stuff up.


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## RTB

smackdaddy said:


> I plan to take them out for a day of practice before we head out.


Later in the week looks good....

http://www.weather.com/storms/hurricane/news/tropical-development-gulf-of-mexico-91-l-heavy-rain

Hopefully you don't find any new leaks.

Ralph


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## smackdaddy

I'm watching that one.


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## RTB

Good luck. Not likely to become much more than a rain event, but you never know.

Ralph


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## smackdaddy

Well, "TS Bill" dropped a dookey-ton of water on our boat - and my bedding work held up magnificently. Nary a drop.

The storm surge put the water_ over_ our fixed docks, with 50 knot gusts. Pure zaniness. _Dawn Treader _rode it all out like a champ, however. Awesome boat.

Of course, that doesn't mean she was dry. After all that work, I accidentally left the aft starboard port undogged, and got a good soaking of some sheets in my aft cabin cabinets. What a doof!

Apart from that - she's looking proud and ready for some blue water.


----------



## aeventyr60

Brent Swain said:


> In the Pacific, the luxury of anchoring in only 20 ft is extremely rare. I carry a 30 lb ( one litre) of lead kellet. If I let the anchor hit the bottom before putting the kellet on, I only lift one at a time.


Making land fall in Fatu Hiva, Marquesas the depth was 90'...Philippines we rarely anchored in less then 70'...all chain rode here a must...with another 250' of 3 strand behind it for those deep spots..


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## RTB

smackdaddy said:


> Well, "TS Bill" dropped a dookey-ton of water on our boat - and my bedding work held up magnificently. Nary a drop.
> 
> The storm surge put the water_ over_ our fixed docks, with 50 knot gusts. Pure zaniness. _Dawn Treader _rode it all out like a champ, however. Awesome boat.
> 
> Of course, that doesn't mean she was dry. After all that work, I accidentally left the aft starboard port undogged, and got a good soaking of some sheets in my aft cabin cabinets. What a doof!


Bill hit about 30 miles from here, but we were on the weak side. Reported winds were only up to 44 knots. Not bad, and happy Bill didn't have time to develop into a real storm.

In the doof department....yesterday brought some severe T-storms and driving rain. Something like 7 inches. During one of these storms, I was reading my Kindle, and dozing a bit. I somehow missed the fact that water was running down the sole from the companionway. Well, these things happen if you miss the fact that the scuppers have somehow clogged themselves up, resulting in the cockpit becoming a small swimming pool. Ooops.

Ralph


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## Brent Swain

THEFRENCHA said:


> Fuel odors are pain in the neck
> My 2 cents tip: Clean bilge and then drop a bottle of concentrated Spa perfume Bought it at a pool shop and really does wonder


Calgone water softener also helps kill diesel smell.


----------



## RTB

Well, I'm waiting for the "gone cruising" thread, smack. Should be fun. So, considering recent weather events that you have experienced yourself....any second thoughts? Mid-summer wouldn't be my choice for heading to Florida, but I understand this is the time your sons have free. 

Maybe TS Bill was the only name that the Gulf will see this year....maybe not. Louisiana is a bunch of water to get through, and I don't recall any marinas that would be "hurricane safe", but maybe some other members here would have suggestions. I'm not sure about Mississippi either. The only marina we stayed at was Gulfport Small Craft Harbor, and don't have a feeling about it storm-related. Once in Alabama, Home Port Marina would offer safe haven for a major storm. A fun stop anyway. Jimmy Buffet's sister owns the joint (Lulu's). 

I'm not sure where you are headed exactly in Florida, but early on I think Port St. Joe offers a safe place to ride out a storm. 

These are just some suggestions based on what I feel, and the decision is yours should the ****e hit the fan (that's a disclaimer, right?) 

Anyway, the way I see it, you're at risk from Texas to Florida. Then, it gets serious. Just kidding, but definitely have your homework done before you leave Galveston Bay. 

Ralph


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## smackdaddy

Okay - I have some urgent questions for the SN mechanics. We need some help here.

First some background...

*PART 1:*
Before we left Kemah we had a crap-ton of work done on the engine as I've mentioned above to make sure it was rock solid for the ICW. It was done by a reputable company in Kemah that I won't mention yet.

That work included:

-uncoupling the engine from the shaft, disconnecting it from the mounts, and jacking it up to get the wet muffler out from under it for repairs (which was the initial reason for the work order)

-they then recommended replacing the engine mounts while the engine was loose and I agreed, knowing the old mounts were rusty.

This obviously means that the engine was moved around quite a bit, and the shaft had to be realigned after all this work was done.

Now, before we left, the mechanic who did the work pointed out a couple of things to me:

1. He showed me the shaft alignment work - and noted how the shaft _looked_ a little crooked - but that it was due to the layup of the glass around the shaft tube. He assured me the alignment was right - and that he was good at what he does.

2. When he revved the engine in the slip to about 2700 rpm or so, in forward gear, there was a vibration I'd not felt before. He said it was just the engine, not the shaft and not to worry - so I attributed it to the new motor mounts.

So, we left the following day from Kemah for Galveston. We motored up the ship channel to Galveston Yacht Basin, and, though I kept feeling that vibration (noticing it in my chartplotter at the helm even) - I trusted that everything was okay. Knowing we'd just finished this work, I kept a close eye on the tach, temp and oil pressure gauges. I wanted to make sure any problems could be covered before we headed off-shore. It all looked fine.

We sailed across to Sabine Pass and had no real issues. We left the marina the next morning to start up the ship channel toward the ICW and continue our trip. Everything seemed fine - and I had my son check all the gauges again which were all good. As we got to the entrance to Sabine Lake, we circled there while a large tanker came through the ship channel. Then as I throttled up to move into the ship channel, there was a horrible rattle that grew louder and louder. I tried to turn us back out of the ship channel to get back to the sheltered water and the engine died. We found ourselves in a very precarious situation, stuck between oncoming tankers, shallows just 60' away, and very, very little wind. We scrambled to get the genny out and I called a Securite.

We ended up sailing as far as we could back toward the marina (have to pinch like a motha to keep us off the rocks in light shifty winds coming in at about 10-20 degrees off our bow), then the sheriff's office RIB towed us into the marina. So we are stuck here right now trying to figure out what's next (it's a nice place, so no biggie).

The marina recommended a local diesel mechanic who came out to take a look. He barred the engine over (it wouldn't start) - and felt a lot of play in the crank shaft - way too much he said. He was very hesitant to give a diagnosis, but said he thinks the thrust plates (I think that's the right term but I'm not sure) and the main bearing are done.

He also looked at the transmission/prop shaft coupling and said it seems too tight to him - no play at all&#8230;and that the shaft looked crooked (same as Arik and I discussed). His opinion was that there was a good deal of force pushing the crank shaft either forward or backward to cause the above problem.

*PART 2:*
I contacted the owner of the company in Kemah. He suggested that I tow the boat back to Kemah "if possible" so he could have a look. I laughed. He then drove over here to have that look.

He checked everything and, as I'd already told him, it all looked fine (oil was clean, bilge was clear of oil/coolant/etc., no signs of overheating, and he took the valve cover off and they all looked fine - none dropped - and saturated with oil). There are no obvious signs of "typical" engine failure. He too barred the engine (as much as he could) and noticed the same play.

His take is that the crankshaft is broken. And, though he said he'd never seen such a thing in a Yanmar, he is adamant that nothing they did could have caused that. It was "just one of those things". He then told me he could sell me a new engine, then left.

*QUESTIONS:*
-Could the work done above, if not done precisely, have caused enough torque and/or pressure on the crank shaft to cause one of the two outcomes diagnosed above (forward pressure on the shaft causing the thrust/bearing to fail, or have the crankshaft break)?

-Apart from checking the alignment when the engine is pulled, what else do I need to look for to take the possibility of their work causing this problem off my list of suspicions.

We've NEVER had any problem with this engine. The mechanic who worked on it also mentioned how smoothly it ran. And we'd never had vibrations like that before. So the only thing that changed in this mix is their work. I need to know how to prove/disprove any correlation between the two before we start pulling things apart, so I can figure out next steps.

Thanks for the help.


----------



## MedSailor

Crap Smack. That doesn't sound good. I don't have a lot to add except condolences at this point.

Does the engine sound bad and vibrate when not in gear or only when the prop is turning?

MedSailor


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## smackdaddy

MedSailor said:


> Crap Smack. That doesn't sound good. I don't have a lot to add except condolences at this point.
> 
> Does the engine sound bad and vibrate when not in gear or only when the prop is turning?
> 
> MedSailor


No worries Med. As you well know (I thought of your own ordeal today), stuff like this happens. We'll get it figured out and keep moving.

The engine will no longer turn over and the last time it did it sounded like 25 wrenches in an industrial dryer. It's toast. No question.

Now it's just a matter of diagnosing and fixing.


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## RTB

I'll join Med in saying I'm really sorry to hear this too. 

Ralph


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## Don L

Does the prop shaft turn with gear in neutral? Is there oil in the gear box?

If the shaft turns I don't think anything you had done far as mounts/alignment would cause a crankshaft to break.

If the shaft doesn't turn you need to find out why, but that could have resulted in a broken crankshaft.


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## GeorgeB

How many hours did you put on the clock before the Kemah mechanic worked on it? Is it possible that the new mounts raised the entire engine so it's out of alignment? Did the vibration go away when you ran it in neutral? I would have thought that a miss-alignment would wreck a cutless bearing and not a crankshaft. Fair disclosure: I am not a diesel mechanic.


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## VF84Sluggo

Maine Sail said:


>


Damn!!...now THAT's one helluva setup! Smart, ship-shape, and seaman-like. I think my crabby naval engineering instructor back at USNA might have to break down and give that a 4.0 :wink


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## Loki9

smackdaddy said:


> So, we left the following day from Kemah for Galveston. We motored up the ship channel to Galveston Yacht Basin, and, though I kept feeling that vibration (noticing it in my chartplotter at the helm even) - I trusted that everything was okay. Knowing we'd just finished this work, I kept a close eye on the tach, temp and oil pressure gauges. I wanted to make sure any problems could be covered before we headed off-shore. It all looked fine.
> 
> We sailed across to Sabine Pass and had no real issues. We left the marina the next morning to start up the ship channel toward the ICW and continue our trip. Everything seemed fine - and I had my son check all the gauges again which were all good. As we got to the entrance to Sabine Lake, we circled there while a large tanker came through the ship channel. Then as I throttled up to move into the ship channel, there was a horrible rattle that grew louder and louder. I tried to turn us back out of the ship channel to get back to the sheltered water and the engine died.


How many hours have you put on the engine since purchase? Enough to rule out prior owner problems, I assume.

How many hours did the engine run between them working on it and it self-destructing?

I'd say any number less than 10 hours and the failure is 100% a result of something they did.

Even if it's a bit more than 10 hours, I just don't believe in coincidences like that.

Unless you find another obvious cause, like no oil, they have some explaining to do.


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## chall03

Like I said in the other thread, I am really sorry to hear this Smack. I have had my fair share of engine problems (with a near new Volvo Penta :|) including one that was partly caused by a mechanic and left us drifting offshore. So I know what a complete PITA it can be.



Don0190 said:


> Does the prop shaft turn with gear in neutral? Is there oil in the gear box?
> 
> If the shaft turns I don't think anything you had done far as mounts/alignment would cause a crankshaft to break.
> 
> If the shaft doesn't turn you need to find out why, but that could have resulted in a broken crankshaft.


+1

I will also say trust your instincts, while your not a diesel mechanic you do know your boat better than anyone else. If It seemed like something was different/wrong then it was.

While in these situations it is obviously quite hard to_ prove_ that the work done was the cause, however likely if I was you I would keep the good will going but be leaning on the original mechanic quite heavily.

In my situation even though it was not immediately clear who caused what and how, my mechanic assumed responsibility until it could be found otherwise and made good the problem (about 7k of work) without a harsh word being exchanged between us. He has since gotten more work from me and my recommendation.

If it ends up being a new engine Smack, perhaps a amicable suggestion could be that the Kemah mechanic provides the engine at cost price with free installation either in situ or towed back to his workshop at his cost?

Best of luck.


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## Capt Len

In a normal world the thrust is taken by the bearing on the gear box. So are forces caused by misalignment. Easy to disconnect shaft and know what's what.The connection between the engine crank and tranny is the drive plate If the bolts or springs shake loose there ,big clatter and maybe jamming of flywheel to bell housing.Still no big thing. May be an inpection door on the adaptor plate to look see. If there's the problem, pull the trannie and replace with the rubber pocket type of drive plate.The old spring type is only good for a couple of years of real use (that's maybe 5 years on a production boat) ON the nastier end. I've seen a couple of cranks break at the rear bearing (big Volvos).This is not likely but a turned shell is a possibility but not caused by your chain of events described. When you do all your mechanical yourself you get better results.


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## aeventyr60

Long term misalignment of the shaft causing wear on all sorts of downstream parts, worn motor mounts adding to the vibration and alignment issues, then a mechanic getting it back to almost right, but noticing a slightly bent shaft......Maybe something that was going to happen anyway? 
Sorry to hear of your troubles.
Hang in there!


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## MedSailor

Getting a surveryor involved, and/or contacting your insurance before too many things change may be in order. Stopping the press and contacting my insurance didn't get things moving quickly, but it got my new engine paid for.

MedSailor


----------



## chall03

loki9 said:


> i'd say any number less than 10 hours and the failure is 100% a result of something they did.
> 
> Even if it's a bit more than 10 hours, i just don't believe in coincidences like that.
> 
> Unless you find another obvious cause, like no oil, they have some explaining to do.


+1


----------



## VF84Sluggo

^^^^ Concur...especially considering you noticed a new 'bad' vibe right away in an engine that up to that point had a history of running smoothly, with the mech doing the run-up, and you mentioned it to him right on the spot.


----------



## RTB

GeorgeB said:


> I would have thought that a miss-alignment would wreck a cutless bearing and not a crankshaft. Fair disclosure: I am not a diesel mechanic.


I agree with George here. Is there some uneven gap between the transmission and prop shaft flanges? Not sure how you can have enough resistance due to mis-alignment to cause a transmission failure, much less cause a crank on a diesel engine to break (if it is, which is unlikely). Excessive wear on the cutlass bearing - yes. If any diesel engine mechanics want to correct me, I'm all ears.

No overheating or other abnormal reading on gauges from what I've read. Any black, blue, or white smoke not mentioned. Definitely bumfuzzled here.

Ralph


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## Minnewaska

smackdaddy said:


> I'm starting to wonder why the hell I should "fix" something that hasn't been "broken" for 26 years. At some point it gets a little ridiculous.


Bad luck I guess

Hope you get back to your cruise quickly.


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## Capt Len

Before you pull the engine can you check the shaft alignment and turn the shaft by hand while disconnected to see if you can detect a wobble..A one inch shaft (yours is??)is amazingly flexible andI've seen them levered into position to meet the flange.


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## smackdaddy

Loki9 said:


> How many hours have you put on the engine since purchase? Enough to rule out prior owner problems, I assume.
> 
> How many hours did the engine run between them working on it and it self-destructing?
> 
> I'd say any number less than 10 hours and the failure is 100% a result of something they did.
> 
> Even if it's a bit more than 10 hours, I just don't believe in coincidences like that.
> 
> Unless you find another obvious cause, like no oil, they have some explaining to do.


I'm with you. 10 hours is about what we put on it after their work before it blew up (3 hours up Galveston Bay, 2 hours out to sea, another 4 hours into Sabine Pass, then 1 hour toward the ICW - boom). And there is definitely no other obvious cause - that either the local mechanic here or even the owner of the original shop could find.

The two local mechanics' diagnoses makes the most sense to me. I'll get some of this terminology wrong - but here's the gist...

The dude in Kemah set the engine too far back and didn't get the alignment quite right. When coupled with the prop shaft, this put a good deal of pressure on the damper disc in the marine drive - which, in turn, pressured the crank shaft and introduced more torque. This also makes sense because when the Kemah dude showed me his work, the prop kept spinning slowly even when in neutral. And even he said that shouldn't be happening, but blamed it on a potential transmission issue (saying that I shouldn't worry about it right now). Add to that the new vibration and this theory sounds pretty plausible to me.

So - in this scenario, the forward pressure started eating away the thrust plates and eventually they failed, followed by the main bearing giving out. The loud clatter I heard was the crank-shaft moving forward far enough to get into the block.

We'll be liveaboards for a week or two while we try to find a longblock Yanmar 4JHE and get the rebuild done (anyone have one sitting around?). The guy here will pull the engine and drop the pan and we'll see what we've got. Then we'll figure out what's next.

Anyway, this might sound crazy, but we're having a blast. The people here are seriously kind and generous - awesome folks. The boys are fishing and playing. It's a great adventure. No complaints.

I've never been lucky...just determined. So we'll get over this hump.

More soon.


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## JonEisberg

smackdaddy said:


> We'll be liveaboards for a week or two while we try to find a longblock Yanmar 4JHE and get the rebuild done (anyone have one sitting around?). The guy here will pull the engine and drop the pan and we'll see what we've got. Then we'll figure out what's next.
> 
> Anyway, this might sound crazy, but we're having a blast. The people here are seriously kind and generous - awesome folks. The boys are fishing and playing. It's a great adventure. No complaints.
> 
> I've never been lucky...just determined. So we'll get over this hump.
> 
> More soon.


Damn, really sorry to hear about this, Smack... Sounds like you're in a good spot, at least, that can make a world of difference in a situation like this...

Your attitude, however, is stellar... You just might make a fine cruising sailor yet, one of these days...

)

Good luck, bud...


----------



## smackdaddy

JonEisberg said:


> Damn, really sorry to hear about this, Smack... Sounds like you're in a good spot, at least, that can make a world of difference in a situation like this...
> 
> Your attitude, however, is stellar... You just might make a fine cruising sailor, one of these days...
> 
> )
> 
> Good luck, bud...


Thanks Jon. We'll catch up with you at some point. I can't wait for that beer. We'll definitely have some laughs.


----------



## Capt Len

Long reaching for causes here. Is it possible that the modification to the water muffler reached back to the riser and injection point, then a dollop of water causes hydo lock,bent/broken rods and mayhem. Wonder if the cam is still timed right.Gear or chain, a well worn engine can jump a cog and stick valves into pistons.Just guessing, never pulled a little yanmar apart.


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## chall03

smackdaddy said:


> Anyway, this might sound crazy, but we're having a blast. The people here are seriously kind and generous - awesome folks. The boys are fishing and playing. It's a great adventure. No complaints.
> 
> I've never been lucky...just determined. So we'll get over this hump.
> 
> More soon.


Good on you.

It is the unexpected (mis)adventures that make for the best cruising. Herb Payson got two books out of it!

I have nothing to add on the engine other than damn.....


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## VF84Sluggo

smackdaddy said:


> Anyway, this might sound crazy, but we're having a blast. The people here are seriously kind and generous - awesome folks. The boys are fishing and playing. It's a great adventure. No complaints.


And that's really what it's all about, isn't it? Enjoy the time with your boys...they'll be all grown up before you know it.

If it's any consolation, as a mechanic buddy of mine consoled once as I was facing a total engine removal and overhaul, "Hey, cheer up, there's nothing that time and money won't fix!" :grin

Sluggo


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## smackdaddy

We're tearing down the engine today. We'll drop the pan and pull the head so the insurance adjuster can have a look at the damage on Monday morning and make a final call on whether it will be covered (improper alignment vs. wear-and-tear). We'll try to have the new engine in here by the end of the week and be back on the move early the following week.

In the mean time, the boys are having a great time fishing, scootering, and playing X-Box. So it's all good.

I'll keep you posted.


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## RTB

smackdaddy said:


> We're tearing down the engine today. We'll drop the pan and pull the head so the insurance adjuster can have a look at the damage on Monday morning and make a final call on whether it will be covered (improper alignment vs. wear-and-tear). We'll try to have the new engine in here by the end of the week and be back on the move early the following week.
> 
> In the mean time, the boys are having a great time fishing, scootering, and playing X-Box. So it's all good.
> 
> I'll keep you posted.


That's a pretty aggressive itinerary. I hope it works out the way you plan, Steve.

I just read your blog, and noticed (in the video) the filter those guys installed. It looks like a Racor 200 series filter. I sure wish they had installed a 500 MA, because of this - ABYC Requirements for Diesel Fuel Filters | West Marine Surely, your boys from Y.E.S. know about ABYC standards?










After having a good look at this alignment pic (can be enlarged a bit more on your blog), it's way off. Why let it slide just because the mechanic says it's fine, when you know it doesn't "look right"? Have someone else check it out, if you can't figure it out? Why leave if there is doubt in your mind, considering the trip ahead of you and the boys? Same with the vibration. Turn around, go back to the dock, and figure it out before you head out. When the engine starts knocking, shut it down immediately, before more damage can be done. Drop the hook and call for a tow. Listen to that little voice in your head. It's saved me a few times.










Well, I feel I need to stay out of your business, but I'm pulling for you guys. Hopefully, things will smooth out for you.

Ralph


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## RTB

So, what's new? Any resolution as to what/who is to blame for the (blown?) engine? Where did you buy a new/remanufactured engine? We've got 2 years/+1000hours on our 33 year old Yanmar since we left the dock. An engine failure would be a big hit on the cruising budget for us. 

Don't underestimate your engine. There are times when you will absolutely rely on it. It's another tool in your kit.

I love sailing as much as the next guy, but the Caribbean is dead to windward. You will use the engine way more than you had hoped. 

Ralph


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## smackdaddy

It will be a new engine/drive - and I should have a resolution on the how and who of covering that cost in the next day or so. I'll let you know how it turns out. I'm hoping for reason and honor amongst all parties.

On this part...



RTB said:


> When the engine starts knocking, shut it down immediately, before more damage can be done. Drop the hook and call for a tow. Listen to that little voice in your head.


We did what we had to do to save the boat. What you're describing is a luxury we didn't have in the 2-3 minutes it all unfolded.

Oh - and yes, the company who did my work is a:

"Proud Member of the American Boat & Yacht Council"

So I'm not sure what to say about the Racor. I'm just the celebrity here - not the highly-paid pro.


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## RTB

smackdaddy said:


> We did what we had to do to save the boat. What you're describing is a luxury we didn't have in the 2-3 minutes it all unfolded.
> 
> Oh - and yes, the company who did my work is a:
> 
> "Proud Member of the American Boat & Yacht Council"
> 
> So I'm not sure what to say about the Racor. I'm just the celebrity here - not the highly-paid pro.


I'm just saying that I'd shut the engine down Immediately once the clatter started, and dropped the hook rather than running it until it quit. Drop the hook. Period. Let the other boats dodge you. 2 or 3 minutes running an engine with a problem will result in a bad outcome. On the Racor - I linked a post for you (I'm no expert). Something that I knew for a few years. Nothing new. Ask your insurance co.

Ralph


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## smackdaddy

The motor was dead in the first minute after the clattering started just as I was turning back toward the shallower water to anchor. This left us on the edge of a 40'+ deep ship channel with a ship coming down - and 2' shallows that were maybe 30' to leeward from the boat. It was either try to drop anchor in this very dramatic topography (what scope do you use to keep you off the shallows but still bite in 40'+?) or sail. We chose to sail and came out okay. I'm very comfortable with that decision.


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## jerryrlitton

Nothing quite like being the man in the arena when the crowd watching is pointing and saying woulda, shoulda, coulda, good job dude. I have been there before.


----------



## RTB

smackdaddy said:


> The motor was dead in the first minute after the clattering started just as I was turning back toward the shallower water to anchor. This left us on the edge of a 40'+ deep ship channel with a ship coming down - and 2' shallows that were maybe 30' to leeward from the boat. It was either try to drop anchor in this very dramatic topography (what scope do you use to keep you off the shallows but still bite in 40'+?) or sail. We chose to sail and came out okay. I'm very comfortable with that decision.


Sorry, seems like a long time to let the engine self-destruct (from your blog) -

As I throttled up to get back in the channel, the motor began tearing itself apart. The clattering was unbelievably loud. I turned back toward the shallower, sheltered water we'd just been in and put Quinn on the wheel and ran down below to see if I could figure out what was going on. I tore off all the access panels - but could see nothing obvious. Just that awful clatter - getting worse.

Poor Jesse was casually heading up the companionway ladder from the galley with a can of Pringles (his task before all this happened) and I quickly and forcefully "removed him" onto the settee as I scrambled back to the helm (he thought that was pretty cool). Then the engine died. Oh crap.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anchoring in 40' - drop 80-100' in the light wind conditions you reported. Your anchor is your friend. Always have it ready for emergencies.

I'm trying (and failing miserably) to help how you think. I'm not criticizing, just trying to help with future decisions. No way to help with previous actions. I'll just bow out, and let others help.

Ralph


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## jerryrlitton

I am not saying that there is not or was not a better way however the main thing here is that he was able to walk away and self critique later, as we all would and sometimes it is better to be lucky than good. It could have been way worse in a hurry. I still think he mucked up buying a production boat (just kidding) :yacht:


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## smackdaddy

Heh-heh. I thought Yanmar was a blue water diesel.

Ralph, don't worry. I understand what you're saying. And I appreciate the analysis. 

Now, I'm off to buy a new engine. Later.


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## GeorgeB

Smack, sorry to hear of your bad luck. I was able to see your video last weekend. Looks like the start of quite an adventure. What is the protocol? Are you going to start a thread for "The Family Smack's Big Adventure"? or are we tagging existing threads? For those of us who are geographically challenged regarding the Gulf Cost is the Sabine Pass the entrance to Port Arthur? Google satellite image hints of a shoal area at the entrance. Any possibility of posting a chartlet of the entrance? You know, it will only hit the fan at the worst possible place and the worst possible moment. I guess that is why they call it an adventure!


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## casey1999

Sounds like the engine was done before it started making all the racket, due to damaged bearings, from mis-alignment. Sometimes it is best to run a piece of equipment until it breaks, then you know what is wrong, and either fix or replace. Better than spending weeks screwing around trying to figure out what "might" be wrong. Shiit happens. Cool runnings Smack.


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## smackdaddy

GeorgeB said:


> Smack, sorry to hear of your bad luck. I was able to see your video last weekend. Looks like the start of quite an adventure. What is the protocol? Are you going to start a thread for "The Family Smack's Big Adventure"? or are we tagging existing threads? For those of us who are geographically challenged regarding the Gulf Cost is the Sabine Pass the entrance to Port Arthur? Google satellite image hints of a shoal area at the entrance. Any possibility of posting a chartlet of the entrance? You know, it will only hit the fan at the worst possible place and the worst possible moment. I guess that is why they call it an adventure!


Thanks George. As I've said before, I've never been "lucky" - just determined.

As for "protocol", I'll post links to my blog write-ups/vids in the BFS thread (where the adventure belongs). I'm using this thread just for technical questions and updates on the boat.

Here is a chartlet of the Sabine Pass entry...

http://www.waterwayguide.com/explor...gitude=-93.88761520385742&zoom=14&mode=marina










It's not very forgiving when the waves are coming in from the south like they were when we ran it. Luckily, we had a pretty mellow sea running (2'-5') - but that stacked up to a steep 6'-8' coming up the jetties. The waves were confused as well with the the prevailing northwesterly swells, mixed with northeasterly swells left over from TS Bill. I definitely wouldn't want to try that inlet in a storm. No way.

And this image shows where our blow-up occurred...










We were circling in the entrance to Sabine Lake - that spit of water just north of the ship channel (top of image) - as a big tanker came through. After it passed, I throttled up and turned that corner there at the red marker "QR 4M '40'" heading west. Another ship was coming down the channel, and they were dredging the green side there - so we were hugging the red side (right along the shallows you see there along Mesquite Point - with a light SSE wind putting those shallows to our lee) when the engine blew up. So there was no margin for error.

As I said, when the clatter started, I tried to turn us around and get us back to the Sabine Lake entrance to get out of the ship channel and drop the anchor - but the engine died within a minute or so leaving us in danger of grounding as you can see on the chart near the "Snags". That's when I decided to turn back around and the boys and I scrambled to get the genny out. We had just enough wind at the right angle to continue west along the red side of the channel, call a Sécurité and await a tow. But we came within inches, literally, of grounding when the wind would subside and/or be blocked by a passing ship.

It was tense. But I had awesome crew.


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## chall03

smackdaddy said:


> T. But we came within inches, literally, of grounding when the wind would subside and/or be blocked by a passing ship.


How many groundings do you get on that Hunter before it's disposable?? :wink

If you were in an Brent boat you could of just dug another shipping channel with your keel.....


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## MedSailor

I'm having a bit of trouble with the chartlets you posted. Can you please post the Active Captain ones? 

Medsailor 

PS anchoring in 40ft is what we do every night around here. Scope is a ratio which largely makes it independent of the actual depth.

In practice, in emergency scenarios, you'll find that you can set an anchor every time at 3:1 and sometimes as little as 1.5:1. (One point five to one)

Good for s hurricane? Hell no! Good enough to stop your boat and keep it there s while? Yes. Heck I've "anchored" good sized fishing boats with a stuck fishing line before. Probably didn't have much scope out then either.



Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk


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## RTB

smackdaddy said:


> We're tearing down the engine today. We'll drop the pan and pull the head so the insurance adjuster can have a look at the damage on Monday morning and make a final call on whether it will be covered (improper alignment vs. wear-and-tear).
> 
> I'll keep you posted.


So, you going to give us the full results on the tear-down? Google search "Yanmar crankshaft failure", or "Yanmar engine failure" shows a pretty small number of problems out there.

Ralph


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## smackdaddy

RTB said:


> So, you going to give us the full results on the tear-down? Google search "Yanmar crankshaft failure", or "Yanmar engine failure" shows a pretty small number of problems out there.
> 
> Ralph


We couldn't get the last 3 oil pan bolts between the engine and flywheel housing off. Not enough room. So, the engine comes out in the morning. We'll know more then. I pulled out all the surrounding cabinetry so it should be pretty straightforward...maybe.










But it definitely looks like this current time-frame for our trip is now a bust. We'll keep the boat here until we can get everything squared away with a new engine, etc. But due to some _very _head-shaking behavior by some of the parties involved, that could take weeks - maybe months (a very long, frustrating story that I'll post soon).

After the repairs, I may hire a delivery captain to move her on over to FL to set us up for our Bahamas leg next spring/summer. It's a bummer - but our trip definitely ain't over.

Just a hiccup...followed by an aneurism. Heh-heh.


----------



## RTB

Man, so sorry to read this. I really don't know what to say. Hang in there.

Ralph


----------



## IStream

Hang in there, Smack. The boys are young and you'll complete this adventure with them.


----------



## smackdaddy

Thank you guys. Though I'd honestly like to punch a wall right now, one thing I really want to teach the boys is...when life gets tough, you get tougher (with God's help). They get it - and they actually help me remember that too. They are incredible kids...incredible blessings. Really. They're all that matters.

It's all good. We'll make it through.


----------



## RTB

smackdaddy said:


> They are incredible kids...incredible blessings. Really.


Having met them, I couldn't agree more. They are a reflection of their parents, so pat yourself on the back. You deserve it.

Hopefully you'll get the boat back together, and meet up with CruisingDad one of these days. I met Brian and his kids in Marathon. You guys would get along great.

Ralph


----------



## smackdaddy

Man, I would LOVE to hang out with Brian and his family. Hopefully.


----------



## chall03

+1 to all of the above. 

That is rotten luck.


----------



## smackdaddy

Okay - another question for the electrical guys...

After we pulled the engine, I noticed that the DC system was a bit weird. We used it for 2 days after the engine had been pulled and it worked fine for the most part, but would sometimes "flicker". 

It just now dawned on me that the system ground at the engine is no longer grounded - because the engine is gone. So - now that we're away from the boat, everything is shut down. The only draw will be the bilge pump. And the only charge input will come from the solar panels.

So - do I need to worry about this? I suppose I could get the mechanic to swing by and bolt the system ground to the steel engine mount angle? Let me know what you guys think.

Thanks.


----------



## capecodda

Smack,

I might be wrong, but I don't think connecting the negative leg of the battery to the engine should matter for stuff like lights. I'm assuming there is a bus bar someplace with all the returns coming together. Are you charging on a shore power connector? Gotta charge somehow.


----------



## smackdaddy

capecodda said:


> Smack,
> 
> I might be wrong, but I don't think connecting the negative leg of the battery to the engine should matter for stuff like lights. I'm assuming there is a bus bar someplace with all the returns coming together. Are you charging on a shore power connector? Gotta charge somehow.


Since we're not leaving the fridge on, this means the only draw will be the bilge pump if needed, so we're only using solar for charging (not shore power).

All the system negatives run to a bus bar (top right) - that then runs to the shunt for the battery monitor (lower left mounted on box)...










The negative for the house bank runs to one side of this shunt, and the system ground from the engine, bus bar, and the negative for the starter battery connect to the other end.

The start battery is switched off right now - but in the fog of everything else going on, I didn't think about the system ground from the battery monitor shunt being disconnected from the engine - leaving that end open.


----------



## mitiempo

Everything will work as long as battery positive and negative are connected. Engine ground has no bearing on this. 

Same as a smaller boat with an outboard - battery negative is all that is necessary.


----------



## capecodda

mitiempo said:


> Everything will work as long as battery positive and negative are connected. Engine ground has no bearing on this.
> 
> Same as a smaller boat with an outboard - battery negative is all that is necessary.


I agree, maybe something else got nocked loose when you were pulling the engine...something got loose...intermittent connection.


----------



## smackdaddy

mitiempo said:


> Everything will work as long as battery positive and negative are connected. Engine ground has no bearing on this.
> 
> Same as a smaller boat with an outboard - battery negative is all that is necessary.


Cool. Thanks Miti.


----------



## miatapaul

smackdaddy said:


> Thank you guys. Though I'd honestly like to punch a wall right now, one thing I really want to teach the boys is...when life gets tough, you get tougher (with God's help). They get it - and they actually help me remember that too. They are incredible kids...incredible blessings. Really. They're all that matters.
> 
> It's all good. We'll make it through.


Well you have had more than your share of rough times, so I thought it would be great for you to spend the summer on the boat with the kids. Have you thought about home schooling them for a year and just take off?


----------



## smackdaddy

They are in a _fantastic _school. Their mom was a teacher there before the accident - so they now have 100 moms that take great care of them. I won't pull them out of that.

It's okay - we had a great time together on our brief cruise (honestly) - and will keep going when we can. No worries.

Lots of very difficult hurdles for sure - but also lots of blessings.


----------



## RTB

So, when do we get the lowdown on the engine? In the WWG vs AC thread, you said "Oh - and I didn't trash my engine. But that's another story." Care to clarify?

Ralph


----------



## smackdaddy

RTB said:


> So, when do we get the lowdown on the engine? In the WWG vs AC thread, you said "Oh - and I didn't trash my engine. But that's another story." Care to clarify?
> 
> Ralph


I can't right now. I'll give you the low-down as soon as I can.


----------



## VF84Sluggo

Yeah, I just posted on the WWG/AC thread about the engine...off topic and really belonged here.

Anyway, you gonna be able to check on your boat during the down time? How about stuff like hull cleaning? Crap grows in a hurry this time of year...hell, along the Gulf coast all times of year, as I'm sure you know!


----------



## seaner97

smackdaddy said:


> They are in a _fantastic _school. Their mom was a teacher there before the accident - so they now have 100 moms that take great care of them. I won't pull them out of that.
> QUOTE]
> 
> Smart man. Helps that you married a professional teacher, so you KNOW what they wouldn't get from homeschooling. Wish I could get people to realize that around here. Best of luck with getting the boat back into shape so you can go again next year.


----------



## chall03

seaner97 said:


> Smart man. Helps that you married a professional teacher, so you KNOW what they wouldn't get from homeschooling. Wish I could get people to realize that around here. Best of luck with getting the boat back into shape so you can go again next year.


Ummm ok. So you have an issue with cruiser's who homeschool I take it?


----------



## seaner97

Nope. I have a problem with Amateurs thinking they can do something as well as the pros when it comes to education. I think it's like anything else- there are exceptions. A couple of highly trained, well educated people might be able to do it, but that's the exception. Most of the people I see home schooling their children don't come close to that description. And that's leaving aside the truism that it's a tough dynamic to teach anyone you are so intimately involved with anything. Not saying it CAN'T be done, just that it is rarely, in practice, done well. And the flip side is that it is done well much more frequently by professionals.


----------



## chall03

seaner97 said:


> Nope





seaner97 said:


> ....I have a problem with Amateurs thinking they can do something as well as the pros when it comes to education. I think it's like anything else- there are exceptions. A couple of highly trained, well educated people might be able to do it, but that's the exception. Most of the people I see home schooling their children don't come close to that description. And that's leaving aside the truism that it's a tough dynamic to teach anyone you are so intimately involved with anything. Not saying it CAN'T be done, just that it is rarely, in practice, done well. And the flip side is that it is done well much more frequently by professionals.


So that was a yes kind of nope? 

I don't necessarily disagree that in some cases, some of the time you might be partly right 

FWIW We will be homeschooling for a couple of years while cruising. The kids will be in the range of 5-9 years old( We would not personally homeschool into the teenagers years as I think your argument becomes particularly valid at this stage and beyond what we would be comfortable doing). We also have the benefit of a government funded, well run distance education school here in Sydney so we will be educating with the support of teachers albeit at a distance, so I guess we will be distance educating as much as home schooling. We will let you know how it all works out.

Meanwhile this is Smack's thread to tell us all the story of the engine that went bang :wink


----------



## seaner97

Yeah. I guess it was. I was actually pretty hesitant to answer that as I didn't want this to get dragged to the sewer. Distance Ed is not the same as homeschool. And your oldest would make me personally nervous as a homeschool but probably up to 9-10 you can get away with it as long as the plan is to get them formally educated. And distance Ed is probably pretty equivalent. Homeschooling has totally different goals and connotations here in the U.S. But as the son of a teacher and someone who teaches as part of my job, I've obviously got some strong feelings on the subject. Happy to discuss in a different forum.


----------



## seaner97

And I'm looking forward to reading about the bang, too.


----------



## chall03

seaner97 said:


> Homeschooling has totally different goals and connotations here in the U.S.


I do understand that. The homeschooling push I think you are critical of is kinda unknown down here. We personally see homeschooling as a reality of cruising with kids, not necessarily as an utopian ideal.



seaner97 said:


> I've obviously got some strong feelings on the subject. Happy to discuss in a different forum.


Smackster doesn't mind a wee bit of thread drift while we are waiting for him to spill the beans on the Yanmar.


----------



## seaner97

chall03 said:


> I do understand that. The homeschooling push I think you are critical of is kinda unknown down here. We personally see homeschooling as a reality of cruising with kids, not necessarily as an utopian ideal.
> 
> Smackster doesn't mind a wee bit of thread drift while we are waiting for him to spill the beans on the Yanmar.


Around here it's generally of three major types:

Religious, antigovernment, or sheer arrogance. The type you're talking about is such a wee minority that I sort of forget it even exists.

And best of luck with the cruise. I'm a big proponent of well rounded education, and experiential definitely has a spot in there.


----------



## smackdaddy

Back on the boat this weekend. I had the same intermittent power issue with the DC when I got here. The bilge pump was not working. I grounded the system to the engine mount steel angles and it's all good again.

Now, while you guys debate educational stuff, I'm working to get our baby back away from the dock and out to sea. It's likely going to take a couple of months (or more) to get through all the jurisprudence. I hate jurisprudence. I'll let you know what's up when it's appropriate.

We will BFS again. Mark my words.


----------



## chall03

smackdaddy said:


> I hate jurisprudence.


See that's some good edumucating right there. Four syllables. We just call it fancy lawyery stuff 'round here


----------



## seaner97

Debate is a pretty big word for him, too. But it's also a pretty strong one for the exchange we had.


----------



## RTB

smackdaddy said:


> Back on the boat this weekend.
> 
> I'm working to get our baby back away from the dock and out to sea. It's likely going to take a couple of months (or more) to get through all the jurisprudence. I hate jurisprudence. I'll let you know what's up when it's appropriate.


Without getting into whose fault it was....would you mind relating what engine damage has been done? Not speculation, but through your own eyes. Sorry - inquiring minds want to know. Hey, I'm trying here, cause a silent smackdaddy is a bit unusual. Kind of scary actually. Give us a bone! Pics would be nice. and I'd bet you have plenty.

Ralph


----------



## smackdaddy

RTB said:


> Without getting into whose fault it was....would you mind relating what engine damage has been done? Not speculation, but through your own eyes. Sorry - inquiring minds want to know. Hey, I'm trying here, cause a silent smackdaddy is a bit unusual. Kind of scary actually. Give us a bone! Pics would be nice. and I'd bet you have plenty.
> 
> Ralph


I've got plenty of pics - and video - and measurements - and bits and pieces - and everything else you can imagine. But honestly I can't give a rundown right now. I just have to let things move along and see if we can get things resolved.

Sorry dude.


----------



## RTB

Hey, no problem. My wife has a long list of boat projects for me to do before we leave in Oct. Plus, I've got my own list to boot (those 2 1/2 year old Interstate SRM 27's are toast, so that's one I'm bummed about). We'll catch you down in the islands one day. All the best, man!

Ralph


----------



## smackdaddy

See you there.


----------



## RTB

Any progress? Throw us a bone.

Ralph


----------



## RTB

smackdaddy said:


> I've got plenty of pics - and video - and measurements - and bits and pieces - and everything else you can imagine. But honestly I can't give a rundown right now. I just have to let things move along and see if we can get things resolved.
> 
> Sorry dude.


I could ask then...why didn't you question the work they did? Didn't you feel that something was not right?

I'm not picking on you. The fact is - maybe you didn't know for sure if your suspicions were warranted. It's pretty clear that you trusted what was being told to you at the time.

A friend loaned me a good book that I recommend to just about any cruisers out there - _Offshore Sailing...200 Essential Passagemaking Tips_. Bill Seifert says - "There is no substitute for personal inspection of any work, regardless of the alleged competence of the contractor".

So, in your case (even if you did question the work before paying your money), you took someone's word that the work was to specs.
No doubt, having major work done on a boat is a bit different that taking your car to Brake Check or Midas. The thing is, I think it takes the average boat owner a fair amount of time to understand the systems that make a boat work. Without being pretty savvy, it's quite easy to be persuaded that work has been performed properly.

That being said....I worry that you are giving it up. Hey, an engine replacement is no insignificant setback. Luckily, it happened early on, rather than in some remote area. You weren't dismasted 500 miles offshore. You didn't sink and call for rescue.

Your post count is way down. What's happening, brotha?

Ralph


----------



## smackdaddy

RTB said:


> That being said....I worry that you are giving it up. Hey, an engine replacement is no insignificant setback. Luckily, it happened early on, rather than in some remote area. You weren't dismasted 500 miles offshore. You didn't sink and call for rescue.
> 
> Your post count is way down. What's happening, brotha?
> 
> Ralph


Everything is legal land right now. So I can't really talk about it. That's all. I need to give everyone a chance to work it through and do the right thing. Trust me, it's a very compelling story - just not in a good way right now. So we'll see what happens.

Don't worry, Ralph, I'm not giving up. It's not in my nature. Not gonna happen. Ever.

I just need to let it play out. I'm patient...like a lion.



RTB said:


> I could ask then...why didn't you question the work they did? Didn't you feel that something was not right?
> 
> I'm not picking on you. The fact is - maybe you didn't know for sure if your suspicions were warranted. It's pretty clear that you trusted what was being told to you at the time.
> 
> A friend loaned me a good book that I recommend to just about any cruisers out there - _Offshore Sailing...200 Essential Passagemaking Tips_. Bill Seifert says - "There is no substitute for personal inspection of any work, regardless of the alleged competence of the contractor".
> 
> So, in your case (even if you did question the work before paying your money), you took someone's word that the work was to specs.
> No doubt, having major work done on a boat is a bit different that taking your car to Brake Check or Midas. The thing is, I think it takes the average boat owner a fair amount of time to understand the systems that make a boat work. Without being pretty savvy, it's quite easy to be persuaded that work has been performed properly.


There is a reason I hire professionals. I can (and have) figure out pretty much _anything_ given enough time and research. I'm very confident about that. But, when I don't have the luxury of those two things, or if it's something that I'd rather not put my personal time into (because there are so many other things to focus on) - I hire a professional. I don't hold to the complete DIY sailor mythology - so I have no problem doing that. They advertise themselves as professionals, hold up to the scrutiny I put into choosing them, and they bill at a rate that a professional bills.

So, I trust them. And I sure as hell expect them to do the job I'm paying them a professional rate to do. It's that simple.

In that vein, just because I have a "suspicion" or "gut feeling" of something doesn't mean I have the informed viewpoint to discount their assurances. Again, they are "ABYC professionals". I'm not.

I have Seifert's book. How many pages are in that book? How many projects? How many areas of expertise? Are you yourself at a ABYC Professional level on every one of them in that book?

That quote of his is only as good as the knowledge behind that self-inspection. If some sailor thinks his/her competence is greater than a professional's _on every single system in his/her boat_ - he/she is a fool.

I know this may be sacrilege to some purists around here - but I make no apologies for my ignorance in some of these areas. I'm just not interested in becoming an expert at everything. Just what I'm interested in. But I sure as hell expect someone I'm paying $95/hr to have the competence they are charging _*me*_ for. So - no, I'm not taking the blame for this incident. No freakin' way.

I'll post more when I can. This whole thing has been a serious kick in the teeth. So I'm not really chatty. But I can take a kick or two. I'll be back.


----------



## RTB

Nice post, Steve. Sorry for pressing at a bad time. On the good side, you're missing the thunderstorm and hurricane season in Floriduh! Things are heating up.

Ralph


----------



## Minnewaska

The way the uber rich handle the situation is to hire a boat manager, who contracts and watches/inspects the work. These managers are typically pretty experienced people. They are not just the best way to get the job done correctly, they are the best way to get it done on time, as they are constantly there to supervise. 

On the huge yachts, they are often living aboard and on the owner's payroll. However, its more common that one manager is responsible for several boats in the marina, sometimes more than one marina.

I don't pay a manager, but I sometimes wonder if I would get their fee back in more competitive or efficient service. Probably not quite, however, it may get done more quickly and without the constant frustration of dealing with marine vendors. 

For now, my method is to trust my gut, when something doesn't seem right. We all know two people, who know two people. Eventually, you can find expert advice on whether your gut is right or wrong. Passing on that bad gut feeling, always turns out to the be the first link in the chain of failure.


----------



## MarcStAug

I just finished reading this entire thread. Yes, I have no life, please don't send cards or flowers.

I enjoyed the hell out of it ALMOST as much as I have enjoyed your blog. And BTW, I ofter cite the "How We Got To Hunter" and "the interview" when peeps get all gnarly on the Benehunterlina thing.

Thanks for putting it out there again and again for the benefit of all of us.


----------



## smackdaddy

MarcStAug said:


> I just finished reading this entire thread. Yes, I have no life, please don't send cards or flowers.
> 
> I enjoyed the hell out of it ALMOST as much as I have enjoyed your blog. And BTW, I ofter cite the "How We Got To Hunter" and "the interview" when peeps get all gnarly on the Benehunterlina thing.
> 
> Thanks for putting it out there again and again for the benefit of all of us.


My pleasure Marc. I really appreciate the comments and I'm honestly glad it's been a benefit. I love it. Stay tuned - we ain't done.


----------



## RainDog

Just heard about your engine issues. Sorry to hear it. If it is any consolation, you made it further than us when we finally cut the lines to go cruising. We were not even to Galveston when our Yanmar caught on fire. Made for a short cruise.


----------



## Matt

such a horrible thing to happen to your engine, i know how you feel. a mechanic sank my last boat. other than the engine problem overall how do you feel about the hunter 40 as a circumnavigator? this is my favourite boat. recently i had some old schoolers terrify my into looking for corbin 39's but im back on track to wanting a hunter 40, i currently own an edel 820CC (28ft) which i plan to keep for another 5-10 years or so. i feel that if i bought the hunter 40 too soon id end up with a bunch of bluewater equipment thatll sit on lake ontario for 10 years devalueing with no use.


----------



## smackdaddy

Matt said:


> such a horrible thing to happen to your engine, i know how you feel. a mechanic sank my last boat. other than the engine problem overall how do you feel about the hunter 40 as a circumnavigator? this is my favourite boat. recently i had some old schoolers terrify my into looking for corbin 39's but im back on track to wanting a hunter 40, i currently own an edel 820CC (28ft) which i plan to keep for another 5-10 years or so. i feel that if i bought the hunter 40 too soon id end up with a bunch of bluewater equipment thatll sit on lake ontario for 10 years devalueing with no use.


Hey Matt. Yeah it sucks, but it's part of the territory. We all know our engines will break at some point - we just hope it's the next guy. I was just the next guy for this one. Oh well.

As for a well-kept '89 Hunter 40 being able to go round the ball - I can see absolutely no reason why she couldn't. I personally wouldn't take mine into the high latitudes, but that's probably more a reflection on me than the boat (because right now I wouldn't take ANY boat into the high latitudes). Remember, Michael (a former member here) took his Hunter 49 around Cape Horn and easily rode out an F10/F11 down there.

So, yes, I absolutely think a Hunter 40 can easily circumnavigate if she's well-outfitted (good rigging, water-maker, drogue and beefed-up attachment points, good electronics, etc.) and well-sailed (careful with the weather, etc.). And, of course, you need to check all the things you should check anyway (rudder/steering integrity, keel bolts/bilge/sump, seacocks, chainplates, etc.) And, as with any boat, there are weird things here and there that I don't get (e.g. - no drain in the lazarettes) - but it's a well-thought-out and well built boat.

Most importantly, our Hunter sails very, very well. I've sailed and raced a lot of boats offshore, including very "blue-water" cruisers, and this Hunter spanks them. No doubt. Tons of space, tons of storage, solid in a seaway, extremely comfortable, easy to control, and really fast. What's not to like?

I don't know if you've seen it, but here's my write-up of...

*HOW WE GOT TO HUNTER*

RainDog - ouch! What caused your fire? I never knew about that!


----------



## RTB

smackdaddy said:


> Hey Matt. Yeah it sucks, but it's part of the territory. We all know our engines will break at some point


Shut Yo Mouth! My little Yanmar better go another few thousand hours. I talk to it most days. Feed it some yummy oil and clean fuel, and don't push it too hard. An engine failure would not be welcome in my family. Seriously though, I've been very impressed with these old diesel engines. Heading your way in another month. I'll stop by for a visit if you are around.

Ralph


----------



## RainDog

Matt said:


> this is my favourite boat. recently i had some old schoolers terrify my into looking for corbin 39's but im back on track to wanting a hunter 40


That is really the only thing that matters. Buy your favorite boat or you will regret it.


----------



## smackdaddy

RTB said:


> Shut Yo Mouth! My little Yanmar better go another few thousand hours. I talk to it most days. Feed it some yummy oil and clean fuel, and don't push it too hard. An engine failure would not be welcome in my family. Seriously though, I've been very impressed with these old diesel engines. Heading your way in another month. I'll stop by for a visit if you are around.
> 
> Ralph


You bet! Just let us know when you're in the hood.


----------



## RainDog

smackdaddy said:


> RainDog - ouch! What caused your fire? I never knew about that!


Some incompetent clear lake mechanic removed the hot water heater and did not bleed the system correctly.

Details on the fire here:

https://raindogps34.wordpress.com/2014/12/26/not-so-great-circle/

The cause was a combination of two things. The first was I caused an air lock in the coolant after removing the hot water heater and putting in new coolant.

The second was my Yanmar had no guages, just a high temp buzzer, and that buzzer did not work. Bad sender I suppose. After this incident I have guages for everything.


----------



## Matt

smackdaddy said:


> Hey Matt. Yeah it sucks, but it's part of the territory. We all know our engines will break at some point - we just hope it's the next guy. I was just the next guy for this one. Oh well.
> 
> As for a well-kept '89 Hunter 40 being able to go round the ball - I can see absolutely no reason why she couldn't. I personally wouldn't take mine into the high latitudes, but that's probably more a reflection on me than the boat (because right now I wouldn't take ANY boat into the high latitudes). Remember, Michael (a former member here) took his Hunter 49 around Cape Horn and easily rode out an F10/F11 down there.
> 
> So, yes, I absolutely think a Hunter 40 can easily circumnavigate if she's well-outfitted (good rigging, water-maker, drogue and beefed-up attachment points, good electronics, etc.) and well-sailed (careful with the weather, etc.). And, of course, you need to check all the things you should check anyway (rudder/steering integrity, keel bolts/bilge/sump, seacocks, chainplates, etc.) And, as with any boat, there are weird things here and there that I don't get (e.g. - no drain in the lazarettes) - but it's a well-thought-out and well built boat.
> 
> Most importantly, our Hunter sails very, very well. I've sailed and raced a lot of boats offshore, including very "blue-water" cruisers, and this Hunter spanks them. No doubt. Tons of space, tons of storage, solid in a seaway, extremely comfortable, easy to control, and really fast. What's not to like?
> 
> I don't know if you've seen it, but here's my write-up of...
> 
> *HOW WE GOT TO HUNTER*
> 
> RainDog - ouch! What caused your fire? I never knew about that!


This was a captivating read. i see you like the hunters for the same reasons im drawn to them aswell. i want a condo on the water not a cave, most of the time im anchored or at a dock i plan to do a pacific crossing and an atlantic crossing, that means ill be exposed to the possiblity of storms in the middle of the ocean for 3 months of my hopefully 15-20 years of retirement sailing. i should not plan my boat characterisics entirely based on 1.3% of what itll be used for. thats like choosing a moving truck as my everyday car because i moved 4 years ago.


----------



## smackdaddy

Matt said:


> i should not plan my boat characterisics entirely based on 1.3% of what itll be used for. thats like choosing a moving truck as my everyday car because i moved 4 years ago.


That's a great way to put it. A book I'd highly recommend is Hal Roth's "Handling Storms at Sea". He makes this same point as you do above based on is quarter-million miles of sailing - but also gives a lot of tremendous advice for what to do IF you happen to get caught.


----------



## jerryrlitton

Matt said:


> This was a captivating read. i see you like the hunters for the same reasons im drawn to them aswell. i want a condo on the water not a cave, most of the time im anchored or at a dock i plan to do a pacific crossing and an atlantic crossing, that means ill be exposed to the possiblity of storms in the middle of the ocean for 3 months of my hopefully 15-20 years of retirement sailing. i should not plan my boat characterisics entirely based on 1.3% of what itll be used for. thats like choosing a moving truck as my everyday car because i moved 4 years ago.


When I was a cop I chose to carry when off duty. Some my my not so close friends would ask me "how many times are you planning on using THAT?" Just once I would say. Nor would I plan my existence around "1.3%" of the time either. However that being said a prudent individual does take that 1.3% of the time into consideration whoever choosing any course of action because that same person realizes that when you absolutely need a particular something nothing else will do. Roll that dice brother.


----------



## RTB

RainDog said:


> Some incompetent clear lake mechanic removed the hot water heater and did not bleed the system correctly.
> 
> Details on the fire here:
> 
> https://raindogps34.wordpress.com/2014/12/26/not-so-great-circle/
> 
> The cause was a combination of two things. The first was I caused an air lock in the coolant after removing the hot water heater and putting in new coolant.
> 
> The second was my Yanmar had no guages, just a high temp buzzer, and that buzzer did not work. Bad sender I suppose. After this incident I have guages for everything.


Hey Brian,

Good luck with that "other" Erika if she makes hurricane status. Could be close for you guys. I saw Erika's post on FB this morning. Just curious if you checked out hurricane hole across from Chat N Chill? Maybe full up? Maybe the moorings are not maintained? It will be interesting to see where you hide Rain Dog if things go south. I'm guessing a quick flight out of George Town?

You two stay safe!

Ralph


----------



## MedSailor

Matt said:


> i should not plan my boat characterisics entirely based on 1.3% of what itll be used for. thats like choosing a moving truck as my everyday car because i moved 4 years ago.


I agree with you. However, the counter point that should at least be considered, is that many a crew has set out on a circumnavigation and ended up cutting the trip short and selling the boat in paradise. Most of those voyages that ended early did so because of discomfort during the 1.3% of the time that was bad enough to end the trip.

This lesson is not just one on boat selection though, it is to me, also one about making sure the crew have gone out and know what they're in for and/or considering alternatives like paying extra crew to help for the 1.3% of the time or having the less willing/able crew fly ahead etc.

MedSailor


----------



## MedSailor

RainDog said:


> Some incompetent clear lake mechanic removed the hot water heater and did not bleed the system correctly.
> 
> Details on the fire here:
> 
> https://raindogps34.wordpress.com/2014/12/26/not-so-great-circle/
> 
> The cause was a combination of two things. The first was I caused an air lock in the coolant after removing the hot water heater and putting in new coolant.
> 
> The second was my Yanmar had no guages, just a high temp buzzer, and that buzzer did not work. Bad sender I suppose. After this incident I have guages for everything.


Wow! Scary and exciting read! I have to commend you on your choice of 2 (or was it 3?) 10lb Halon 1211 extinguishers and a dedicated fire port. Obviously you have done your homework and it paid off. They might look expensive but in a situation like yours they are the best insurance policy going. Fire out, lives saved, boat saved, with no additional damage.

Probably the only thing better would have been an engine compartment smoke alarm and an auto engine halon system.

Thanks for the writeup!

MedSailor


----------



## Matt

agreed that the 1.3% should not be completely discounted, thats why the musts are an inflatable lifeboat, epirb, sat phone for weather updates, windvane plus autopilot with backup autopilot. and of course a drogue and full setup of storm sails, then crossing at the perfect time. i will buy this gear for that 1.3% but the sailboat will be more dedicated to the 98.7% if i am gambling i certainly like my odds.


----------



## RainDog

RTB said:


> Just curious if you checked out hurricane hole across from Chat N Chill? Maybe full up? Maybe the moorings are not maintained?


Looks like it is heading right over us, but only as TS. Hurricane hole is full. We are riding it out a Emerald Bay Marina.


----------



## RTB

RainDog said:


> Looks like it is heading right over us, but only as TS. Hurricane hole is full. We are riding it out a Emerald Bay Marina.


Sounds like a plan. All the best.

Ralph


----------



## TakeFive

Matt said:


> agreed that the 1.3% should not be completely discounted, thats why the musts are an inflatable lifeboat...


Just wondering, if your coastal cruiser becomes too uncomfortable in the ocean's turbulence, why would you climb into a lifeboat?

A lifeboat is only for when your main vessel sinks ("only step up into the life raft"). I think you're misunderstanding the benefits of a blue water boat for crossing oceans.


----------



## smackdaddy

TakeFive said:


> I think you're misunderstanding the benefits of a blue water boat for crossing oceans.


I honestly think the "motion comfort" thing is, in general, a load of crap.


----------



## TakeFive

smackdaddy said:


> I honestly think the "motion comfort" thing is, in general, a load of crap.


That's fine, your opinion is at least as valid as mine. I've never crossed an ocean, so take my opinion with a grain of sea salt.

By the way, how many oceans have you crossed?


----------



## Matt

TakeFive said:


> Just wondering, if your coastal cruiser becomes too uncomfortable in the ocean's turbulence, why would you climb into a lifeboat?
> 
> A lifeboat is only for when your main vessel sinks ("only step up into the life raft"). I think you're misunderstanding the benefits of a blue water boat for crossing oceans.


I think i was pretty specific as to this being safety gear not comfort gear. you're correct about never stepping into something unless you're stepping up. lots of sailors whove abondoned and found dead in the life raft and later the boats found bobbing around in the ocean. however in terms of "rough weather" you can find that 10 ft from the shore line. i would prefer to avoid being in either type of vessel when things get hairy because i can assure you, neither will be comfortable. its like a storm on a coastal is a punch in the mouth and a storm in a blue water is a slap accross the face, sure the bluewater boat will leave less bruising but it would be wise to avoid the storm. because neither would feel too good


----------



## smackdaddy

TakeFive said:


> That's fine, your opinion is at least as valid as mine. I've never crossed an ocean, so take my opinion with a grain of sea salt.
> 
> By the way, how many oceans have you crossed?


Crossing an ocean isn't necessary to determine whether a "blue water" boat is more "comfortable" than a production boat. You can figure that out pretty quickly in steep, short-period, lumpy seas (which you find quite often "coastal sailing" BTW). I've sailed both types of boat off-shore on multi-day passages in such seas. Not an appreciable difference - which is why I made the statement above.

Furthermore, you need to define exactly what "motion comfort" is and where it comes into play enough to be the make-or-break factor between boats. We had this exact conversation extensively in another thread. So where is that line for you?


----------



## TakeFive

smackdaddy said:


> Crossing an ocean isn't necessary to determine whether a "blue water" boat is more "comfortable" than a production boat. You can figure that out pretty quickly in steep, short-period, lumpy seas (which you find quite often "coastal sailing" BTW). I've sailed both types of boat off-shore on multi-day passages in such seas. Not an appreciable difference - which is why I made the statement above.
> 
> Furthermore, you need to define exactly what "motion comfort" is and where it comes into play enough to be the make-or-break factor between boats. We had this exact conversation extensively in another thread. So where is that line for you?


I don't know where that line is. I have no intentions of crossing oceans. All I do know, intuitively, is that what I'm willing to tolerate for a few days may be very different than what I would be willing to tolerate for a few weeks. I'd want that experience under my belt before determining what creature comforts I'd sacrifice in exchange for better motion comfort.

Realistically I'm closer to where you are - prefer a coastal cruiser's roominess since I don't ever expect to be offshore for more than a few days at a time. That allows me to pick my weather windows carefully to fit the boat.

But, hypothetically, I think crossing oceans may be a very different matter. You can't pick your weather windows, you can't get out of the way, and the boat may have to be different to have the flexibility to endure passages that are longer than any reliable forecast window.

I have no "skin in this game," and no acual expertise to offer. But this being the Internet, there's nothing to stop me from pretending to be an expert.


----------



## JonEisberg

smackdaddy said:


> I honestly think the "motion comfort" thing is, in general, a load of crap.


25-30 years ago, back when I was a Young Punk myself, I might have agreed with you...

I'm guessing that you, as I have, will likely 'modify' that assertion to some degree, with the passage of time...

;-)


----------



## Matt

have you found that most of the factory wiring is marine grade? the wiring being just normal wire was one of those things i've heard, this may not be credible information. i also read about flexing and some modifications to reduce this. did any of this apply to your boat?


----------



## RainDog

Ride out a squall in an exposed anchorage on a J/24 then tell me motion comfort does not exist or is only for "blue water".


----------



## smackdaddy

RainDog said:


> Ride out a squall in an exposed anchorage on a J/24 then tell me motion comfort does not exist or is only for "blue water".


A J24 is a bit of an extreme example don't you think? I've sailed a J24. It's not something I'd take on a multi-day offshore run. Ever.

I've also sailed Pearsons, Pacific Seacrafts, Benetaus, Hunters.

Like I've said I find my Hunter 40 every bit as "motion comfortable" in lumpy seas as any of the above.


----------



## seaner97

I think the PS MAY be the only one on that list that MIGHT have a bluewater boat. All the others are coastal cruisers that people use to go offshore, but I don't think any of those companies really designed boats that were intended as offshore boats.


----------



## smackdaddy

Matt said:


> have you found that most of the factory wiring is marine grade? the wiring being just normal wire was one of those things i've heard, this may not be credible information. i also read about flexing and some modifications to reduce this. did any of this apply to your boat?


I don't know about all those particulars. What I can say is that it seems to work okay - even after 26 years. Take that for what it's worth.


----------



## Mike Banks

Those plates look like copper--and copper and aluminium hate one another. Replace them with stainless steel or plate aluminium--because sooner or later they will destroy one another.

Once you have the inspection ports off--shine a lamp into the tank and see if you can see any light emerging anyplace around the sides. You may even be able to see the leak--an alternative is to connect an air pump to the outlet, block the filler, and pump air into the tank. One can hear it hissing where it emerges--and an ultrasonic detector makes it even easier to pinpoint the leak. Having found it--a simple fix is done with aluminium or stainless steel washers each side, o-rings glued to each side of the tank with neoprene rubber solution, and a bolt of Tuffnel nylon or stainless steel, bedded in o-rings on the inside, and tightened but not TOO tight.

Next time the tank is out, have it welded properly--but get rid if that copper ASAP.


----------



## Don L

smackdaddy;2996842
Furthermore said:


> Comfortable is - you just threw up
> Uncomfortable is - you threw up 10 minutes ago


----------



## smackdaddy

Mike Banks said:


> Those plates look like copper--and copper and aluminium hate one another. Replace them with stainless steel or plate aluminium--because sooner or later they will destroy one another.
> 
> Once you have the inspection ports off--shine a lamp into the tank and see if you can see any light emerging anyplace around the sides. You may even be able to see the leak--an alternative is to connect an air pump to the outlet, block the filler, and pump air into the tank. One can hear it hissing where it emerges--and an ultrasonic detector makes it even easier to pinpoint the leak. Having found it--a simple fix is done with aluminium or stainless steel washers each side, o-rings glued to each side of the tank with neoprene rubber solution, and a bolt of Tuffnel nylon or stainless steel, bedded in o-rings on the inside, and tightened but not TOO tight.
> 
> Next time the tank is out, have it welded properly--but get rid if that copper ASAP.


Hey Mike - thanks. Actually, I got the tank nicely sorted a while back. She should last another 30 years with the epoxy solution I came up with. Much better than welding and that tank was not coming out of the boat anyway.

Here is the scoop:

Water Tank Repair (And More!) | SmackTalk!

BTW - the access port covers weren't copper. They were actually clear plexiglass over rubber sheeting that had been tacked down with caulk. That sheeting just happened to be a red/brown color - making it look like copper.


----------



## smackdaddy

...also, while I'm wrapping up old mysteries...there was no more diesel leak into the bilge after I added a screw to that missing hole in the sender unit. So, it must have leaked through that hole when the tank was full and we were heeled and/or when the fuel warmed up and expanded.

Good to have that sorted. Nothing worse than a bunch of diesel in the bilge. Okay - maybe gasoline is worse...


----------



## RTB

smackdaddy said:


> Good to have that sorted. Nothing worse than a bunch of diesel in the bilge. Okay - maybe gasoline is worse...


Well, neither is good.

Smack, I finally mounted that solar panel you sold me. Nice....twice what we had before. Wrapping up a few loose ends, and we're off in 5 or 6 days.

Man, if what happened to you happened to me, it would be a really tough thing to deal with. I thought we were lucky in the past, and can only hope things don't go south on us. You never know when the **** is going to hit the fan. Let me know if you will be on your boat in the next couple of weeks. We avoid marinas mostly, but would be happy to join you if timing works out.

Ralph


----------



## smackdaddy

Ralph - let me know when you're going to be in the neighborhood. We'll definitely try to make the trip.


----------



## RTB

smackdaddy said:


> Ralph - let me know when you're going to be in the neighborhood. We'll definitely try to make the trip.


We'll have to see how the timing works out. It could be that we'll be passing through on a weekday, but I really don't have the days worked out. A lot will depend on weather.

We're fueled up, and need one more trip for final provisioning. We hope to leave this next Tuesday, but plans change sometimes. We'll let you know.

Ralph


----------



## RainDog

RTB said:


> We're fueled up, and need one more trip for final provisioning. We hope to leave this next Tuesday, but plans change sometimes. We'll let you know.
> Ralph


Look us up when you get to Florida. Should be back there by mid-November.


----------



## RTB

RainDog said:


> Look us up when you get to Florida. Should be back there by mid-November.


Will do Brian. I just saw a post by Erika on FB. It looks like you're spending winter somewhere between Ft. Meyers and Boot Key? Tell Erika she sure has put some beautiful photos on your blog. Keep em coming!

Ralph


----------



## RainDog

RTB said:


> It looks like you're spending winter somewhere between Ft. Meyers and Boot Key?


Nov 7-19 in Boot key. Nov 21-28 in Fort Meyers. After that not sure where we will be for December. Probably Boot Key or Key West January till ???


----------



## RTB

Ok. We hope to make Clearwater by the end of the October, but that's pushing it for us. You guys enjoy the rest of your time in the Bahamas, and have a safe crossing back to Florida. 

Now, if only smack could get his boat over there, we could start our own Texas Navy.....

Ralph


----------



## RainDog

RTB said:


> Now, if only smack could get his boat over there, we could start our own Texas Navy.....


Won't be long I am sure.


----------



## smackdaddy

Our goal is to be in Ft. Meyers by March for Spring Break in The Keys.


----------



## RTB

smackdaddy said:


> Our goal is to be in Ft. Meyers by March for Spring Break in The Keys.


Ft. Meyers Beach is a hoot. Plenty of great stops on the west coast of Florida, but FMB is one of our favorites. Really great cruising grounds with many, many good anchorages all along that coast. Definitely nothing like here in Texas.

Personally, I think the Keys are a bit over-rated, but I'm sure we missed a lot in our travels. Still fun though.

Hopefully, Santa will bring a new Yanmar for Dawn Treader. I miss your posts about cruising with the boys. All the best for the New Year, smack!

Ralph


----------



## RTB

smackdaddy said:


> Ralph - let me know when you're going to be in the neighborhood. We'll definitely try to make the trip.


Sorry we missed you, Steve. We came through there on Tuesday, I think. We are at Shell Morgan, Mile 160 WHL, so about 4 days from New Orleans. It's been a smooth trip so far. Nice weather, but not so nice regarding mosquitoes. Can't wait to get past New Orleans, and all the commercial traffic.

Ralph


----------



## smackdaddy

RTB said:


> Sorry we missed you, Steve. We came through there on Tuesday, I think. We are at Shell Morgan, Mile 160 WHL, so about 4 days from New Orleans. It's been a smooth trip so far. Nice weather, but not so nice regarding mosquitoes. Can't wait to get past New Orleans, and all the commercial traffic.
> 
> Ralph


Aw dang! We're headed to the boat this weekend. No worries.

Got some movement on resolution of the engine issue - so hopefully we'll get it settled in the next 30 days or so. Then I can actually get the work done and be back in bidness.

I'll check out your blog.


----------



## RTB

My wife is a slacker, so the blog isn't up to date. Maybe tomorrow. Looks like fog until 11 am. 

FYI, since leaving Rockport, we've made 375 miles, and spent $36.00 for one night in a slip. Add $20.00 for tonight at Shell Morgan. Total fuel is 34 gallons, costing $65.96 here at Shell Morgan. I think we've burned a gallon of gas in the Honda generator too. 

The next stop for a slip and fuel will probably be Gulfport, Mississippi....or maybe stop at Lulu's in Alabama. 

Lovin my Hunter (and the Yanmar " the little engine that could")

Best wishes getting that engine project done. 

Ralph


----------



## RainDog

Stop in Houma for gumbo!


----------



## RTB

Definitely stopping in Houma. Where did you get gumbo, Brian? 

Ralph


----------



## smackdaddy

Okay - I'll have some video of this later, but I promised to update everyone on the good and bad and ugly of everything I've been adding to the boat.

The bottom line is that we got very lucky that our boat didn't burn up. I think it was in this thread that we discussed whether to leave the boat on shorepower or solar for charging when away for a while. And if I recall, the consensus was to leave it on solar since the draw would be so little (just the bilge pump).

Well, since we left the boat in Sabine Pass in July, the solar has been keeping the batteries topped up just fine (we get to the boat once or twice a month). You might remember that our solar system is a full Renogy kit that we bought off Amazon, and we've been running that system for about a year with no problems.

However, several weeks ago I get to the boat and notice there is no power whatsoever. Everything is down. Even the solar charge controller and the Xantrex LinkPro is blacked out. So I try flipping the DC main switch a couple of times - nothing. I use the multimeter on the house batteries and get some inconsistent readings. I check the MRBF for the house bank and it's fine...not tripped.

So, not knowing what was going on, I plugged into shore power and brought up the Xantrex charger. After a few minutes I start smelling sulfur. Not good. So I shut off the power and go through the batteries. One of them is clearly screwed. The electrolyte is low and I can see a bulge in the side of the housing. It's the one putting off the sulfur fumes and is hot to the touch. So I disconnect the entire house bank, then grab the extra battery we have onboard and wire it into the house cables. Immediately the DC power comes back up. The solar controller also comes back up, but the lights are all screwy.

So, I disconnect the solar panel cables and pull the controller...and I find out how lucky we were...

This is the controller after I'd pulled it:









I noticed some deformation on the backside:









So, I popped it open and it was immediately clear that it had gotten very, very hot:









I then pulled the board and looked at the other side:









Wow.










You can see the smoke/heat damage on the inside of the case - also notice the solder that has melted off and is sitting between to the two screw posts:









So we definitely dodged a bullet.

Can you guys tell me what went wrong? Did that one battery fail and cause the controller to overheat because it couldn't push the charge through?

Or did the controller fail, then bring down the house bank by running unregulated power through to the bank?

I've ordered a new controller (different kind) and have taken all the batteries in for testing. I'm replacing 2 of the 4. But I'd really like to understand what happened. It worked flawlessly for a year.

Finally, I assume it's not a problem to leave the panels out with the cable(s) disconnected while I get this sorted?

Thanks.


----------



## Capt Len

Bet the controller went first and did in the battery. Just because there's no bulge on the other doesn 't mean it's unscathed. Batteries can short out any time their time is up but would that cause the over heat in the controller?


----------



## jerryrlitton

I'll bet that if THAT controller was on a proper blue water boat that would not have happened.


----------



## MastUndSchotbruch

smackdaddy said:


> Okay - I'll have some video of this later, but I promised to update everyone on the good and bad and ugly of everything I've been adding to the boat.
> 
> The bottom line is that we got very lucky that our boat didn't burn up. I think it was in this thread that we discussed whether to leave the boat on shorepower or solar for charging when away for a while. And if I recall, the consensus was to leave it on solar since the draw would be so little (just the bilge pump).
> 
> Well, since we left the boat in Sabine Pass in July, the solar has been keeping the batteries topped up just fine (we get to the boat once or twice a month). You might remember that our solar system is a full Renogy kit that we bought off Amazon, and we've been running that system for about a year with no problems.
> 
> However, several weeks ago I get to the boat and notice there is no power whatsoever. Everything is down. Even the solar charge controller and the Xantrex LinkPro is blacked out. So I try flipping the DC main switch a couple of times - nothing. I use the multimeter on the house batteries and get some inconsistent readings. I check the MRBF for the house bank and it's fine...not tripped.
> 
> So, not knowing what was going on, I plugged into shore power and brought up the Xantrex charger. After a few minutes I start smelling sulfur. Not good. So I shut off the power and go through the batteries. One of them is clearly screwed. The electrolyte is low and I can see a bulge in the side of the housing. It's the one putting off the sulfur fumes and is hot to the touch. So I disconnect the entire house bank, then grab the extra battery we have onboard and wire it into the house cables. Immediately the DC power comes back up. The solar controller also comes back up, but the lights are all screwy.
> 
> So, I disconnect the solar panel cables and pull the controller...and I find out how lucky we were...
> 
> This is the controller after I'd pulled it:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I noticed some deformation on the backside:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, I popped it open and it was immediately clear that it had gotten very, very hot:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I then pulled the board and looked at the other side:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can see the smoke/heat damage on the inside of the case - also notice the solder that has melted off and is sitting between to the two screw posts:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So we definitely dodged a bullet.
> 
> Can you guys tell me what went wrong? Did that one battery fail and cause the controller to overheat because it couldn't push the charge through?
> 
> Or did the controller fail, then bring down the house bank by running unregulated power through to the bank?
> 
> I've ordered a new controller (different kind) and have taken all the batteries in for testing. I'm replacing 2 of the 4. But I'd really like to understand what happened. It worked flawlessly for a year.
> 
> Finally, I assume it's not a problem to leave the panels out with the cable(s) disconnected while I get this sorted?
> 
> Thanks.


I would be highly skeptical of a no-name solar controller. I am far from being a brand-name fetishist but if you don't know exactly what you are dealing with, stay with the big boys (nobody's boat ever burnt down because of a Morningstar controller...)

And yes, it is fine to leave the solar panels unconnected.


----------



## smackdaddy

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> I would be highly skeptical of a no-name solar controller. I am far from being a brand-name fetishist but if you don't know exactly what you are dealing with, stay with the big boys (nobody's boat ever burnt down because of a Morningstar controller...)
> 
> And yes, it is fine to leave the solar panels unconnected.


Thanks Mast.

On the controller, it wasn't a no-name. As I said above, it was a Renogy kit (panels and controller). And Renogy seems to be a pretty well respected brand.

Judging by the scorch marks on the board, it looks like the ground side of the battery connection is what burned through. I assume that when the solder melted off, it killed the connection which likely saved the boat.

So my guess is that the battery failed first, causing the incoming current to get "backed up" and overheat at the controller. But I'll be interested to hear from the pros on this one.


----------



## mitiempo

smackdaddy said:


> Thanks Mast.
> 
> On the controller, it wasn't a no-name. As I said above, it was a Renogy kit (panels and controller). And Renogy seems to be a pretty well respected brand.
> 
> Judging by the scorch marks on the board, it looks like the ground side of the battery connection is what burned through. I assume that when the solder melted off, it killed the connection which likely saved the boat.
> 
> So my guess is that the battery failed first, causing the incoming current to get "backed up" and overheat at the controller. But I'll be interested to hear from the pros on this one.


Was it fused?

Renogy controllers are just rebranded offshore controllers. Major brands produce their own products. Brands like Morningstar, Victron, BlueSky, Midnite, and Genasun are quality products designed and built by or for the company whose name is on the product.


----------



## MastUndSchotbruch

smackdaddy said:


> Thanks Mast.
> 
> On the controller, it wasn't a no-name. As I said above, it was a Renogy kit (panels and controller). And Renogy seems to be a pretty well respected brand.


I read what you said. But Renogy is not a brand, they are a distributor of stuff they buy cheaply in China (and from the picture you showed us, even they did not put their name on this controller). Nothing wrong with that business model if you know what you are dealing with. I have a 120W Renogy panel myself which is very good. But I know what I have to pay attention to with a panel, I was fully prepared to send it back if it had not passed my inspection. I cannot evaluate a controller at that level (too many variables. And I am trained in electronics) and for that, I trust the brand-name companies. This is no place to save twenty bucks.


----------



## smackdaddy

mitiempo said:


> Was it fused?
> 
> Renogy controllers are just rebranded offshore controllers. Major brands produce their own products. Brands like Morningstar, Victron, BlueSky, Midnite, and Genasun are quality products designed and built by or for the company whose name is on the product.


Thanks Miti. When you say fused - do you mean the bank or the controller itself? The bank is fused with an MRBF. But there is no fuse in the cabling from the bank to the controller. The installation instructions and wiring diagram didn't call for it. It said to wire directly to the bank. I assumed the controller would be fused internally.

What do you suspect as the initial failure point?


----------



## MastUndSchotbruch

mitiempo said:


> Was it fused?
> 
> Renogy controllers are just rebranded offshore controllers. Major brands produce their own products. Brands like Morningstar, Victron, BlueSky, Midnite, and Genasun are quality products designed and built by or for the company whose name is on the product.


you beat me to it...


----------



## mitiempo

smackdaddy said:


> Thanks Miti. When you say fused - do you mean the bank or the controller itself? The bank is fused with an MRBF. But there is no fuse in the cabling from the bank to the controller. The installation instructions and wiring diagram didn't call for it. It said to wire directly to the bank. I assumed the controller would be fused internally.
> 
> What do you suspect as the initial failure point?


There should be a fuse in the positive wire from controller to battery bank. Every controller I have seen, sold, or installed has shown that in the manual. Some also require a fuse between the panel and controller - Midnite for one.

Initial failure point? Probably poor manufacturing quality (built to a low price level) and poor if any quality control.


----------



## MastUndSchotbruch

smackdaddy said:


> Thanks Miti. When you say fused - do you mean the bank or the controller itself? The bank is fused with an MRBF. But there is no fuse in the cabling from the bank to the controller. The installation instructions and wiring diagram didn't call for it. It said to wire directly to the bank. I assumed the controller would be fused internally.
> 
> What do you suspect as the initial failure point?


Whoa! You have that cable directly attached to the battery and then going half the way through the boat without a fuse? (the MRBF doesn't count, it wouldn't even know if you had a short on your solar charging cable). And that is what the manual says you should do? That should give you an idea right away about the competence of the people who you are buying the controller from. Don't let Maine read that...

Yes, every cable needs to be fused close to the battery, with an fuse compatible with the cable. If you buy a real controller, instructions will tell you that.


----------



## MastUndSchotbruch

mitiempo said:


> There should be a fuse in the positive wire from controller to battery bank. Every controller I have seen, sold, or installed has shown that in the manual. Some also require a fuse between the panel and controller - Midnite for one.
> 
> Initial failure point? Probably poor manufacturing quality (built to a low price level) and poor if any quality control.


you beat me to that one, too. I need to learn how to type faster.


----------



## smackdaddy

mitiempo said:


> There should be a fuse in the positive wire from controller to battery bank. Every controller I have seen, sold, or installed has shown that in the manual. Some also require a fuse between the panel and controller - Midnite for one.
> 
> Initial failure point? Probably poor manufacturing quality (built to a low price level) and poor if any quality control.


Maybe I read the instructions wrong (wouldn't be the first time). Here is the manual for the controller installation:

http://renogy.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/PWM1030CC-Manual.pdf

What size fuse do you recommend? It's a 30a controller. I'll look around for other diagrams as well. Would something like this work?


----------



## smackdaddy

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> Don't let Maine read that...


Heh-heh. He's always in need of good examples of bad installations.


----------



## MastUndSchotbruch

smackdaddy said:


> Maybe I read the instructions wrong (wouldn't be the first time). Here is the manual for the controller installation:
> 
> http://renogy.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/PWM1030CC-Manual.pdf
> 
> What size fuse do you recommend? It's a 30a controller? I'll look around for other diagrams as well.


No, you read that right, they don't have a fuse in their wiring diagram. Morons.

The installation manual of the controller that you have ordered will tell you. It will also tell you what minimum cable size to use, dependent on cable lengths.


----------



## smackdaddy

I just emailed Renogy about the issue. We'll see what they say. They seem to be the top selling solar company on Amazon. So I doubt I'm alone on this.


----------



## Maine Sail

smackdaddy said:


> I just emailed Renogy about the issue. We'll see what they say. They seem to be the top selling solar company on Amazon. So I doubt I'm alone on this.


McDonalds has the top selling burger and it is still an awful pile o crap....

Renogy sells cheap Chinese stuff, slaps their name on it and calls it a brand. Much of it has not been reliable from their brittle crumbling MC4 terminals to their panels that don't meet spec, to their semiflexibles developing hot spots & melting, and go figure now one of their cheap Chinese controllers nearly burned a boat up...

Are we starting to see why I stress electrical safety so much.....:wink


----------



## smackdaddy

So what about the fuses Maine? What do you recommend for a 30a controller? Would the inline type above be sufficient? And I suppose you recommend one each at the panel side and the battery side?

And do you think it was the battery or the controller first in the failure sequence?

On the safety thing - it's not like I disagree with you buy any means. But a Non-Sino dude can only know what a dude knows when installing this stuff from the instructions in the kit.

(PS - If you put this on Pbase it will cost you millions in royalties. Heh-heh.)


----------



## mitiempo

Buy a real controller!

First, make sure it is an MPPT controller - you will gain output over a Pwm controller. Any of the brands I listed are good. Their manuals will be a bit more extensive than the Renogy manual's 4 pages. For fusing it depends on the max current your system can produce and the wire size. The fuse should sized between what the system produces and what the wire will handle.


----------



## smackdaddy

mitiempo said:


> Buy a real controller!
> 
> First, make sure it is an MPPT controller - you will gain output over a Pwm controller. Any of the brands I listed are good. Their manuals will be a bit more extensive than the Renogy manual's 4 pages. For fusing it depends on the max current your system can produce and the wire size. The fuse should sized between what the system produces and what the wire will handle.


Okay - but I remember reading about MPPT controllers being more temperature sensitive...that they were not as good in heat as the PWM controllers. Is that true? It's an important issue on our boat where we sail.


----------



## mitiempo

smackdaddy said:


> Okay - but I remember reading about MPPT controllers being more temperature sensitive...that they were not as good in heat as the PWM controllers. Is that true? It's an important issue on our boat where we sail.


I've never heard that. If not installed in the engine space (shouldn't be anyway) it should not be a problem. Like any electronics it does need ventilation.


----------



## smackdaddy

mitiempo said:


> I've never heard that. If not installed in the engine space (shouldn't be anyway) it should not be a problem. Like any electronics it does need ventilation.


Here's one of several places I found it:

PWM vs MPPT Solar Charge Controllers | Solarcraft



> ► Temperature Conditions
> An MPPT controller is better suited for colder conditions. As solar module operating temperature goes down, the Vmp1 increases. That's because the voltage of the solar panels operating at their peak power point at Standard Testing Conditions (STC is 25C°) is about 17V while the battery voltage is about 13.5V. The MPPT controller is able to capture the excess module voltage to charge the batteries. As a result, a MPPT controller in cool conditions can produce up to 20 - 25% more charging than a PWM controller.
> 
> In comparison, a PWM controller is unable to capture excess voltage because the pulse width modulation technology charges at the same voltage as the battery. However, when solar panels are deployed in warm or hot climates, their Vmp decreases, and the peak power point operates at a voltage that is closer to the voltage of a 12V battery. There is no excess voltage to be transferred to the battery making the MPPT controller unnecessary and negating the advantage of an MPPT over a PWM.


----------



## mitiempo

I don't think a system on a boat in a warm climate is what they are using for comparison. The temps in the Caribbean with a breeze will be warmer than Maine in the summer, but nowhere near as hot as Arizona for example. Most solar data comes from terrestrial installations.


----------



## smackdaddy

Okay - I found another potential issue that I had not noticed before. The controller that comes with this kit is _positive_ grounded. Looking through the reviews on Amazon there appears to be a lot of confusion over this as many of the buyers are using them for RV installations. In searching through other controller options, I also see that there are also negative grounded controllers (but the Morningstar doesn't seem to indicate one way or the other: http://www.morningstarcorp.com/products/prostar/). I assume negative is what you want in an RV/boat application - and that these higher end controllers are negative?

Could that have been the problem? And if so, why did it take so long to fail?


----------



## smackdaddy

And finally, on this question of fuses - the information seems to be all over the place. This guy says that you really shouldn't need a fuse on the panel side because the panels are self limiting:

https://www.boats.com/how-to/solar-panels-what-about-fuses-or-breakers/



> The panels are rated at 80 watts each and I have mounted four of them on the boat. The way I calculate it that's 320 watts @ 12 volts nominally. Doing the math tells me I end up with something on the order of 25 or more amps running through the cable. Should I just install a 30-amp fuse in the circuit and call it a day?
> 
> Answer: Excellent question. You've thought this all out pretty well, and your calculations are correct. Assuming you have properly sized the wiring, which really needs to take into consideration the length of the wire run, which you have not told me, a 30-amp fuse or breaker could do the job. Dividing watts by volts is the basic equation used to find amperage draw in an electrical circuit. Fuse or breaker size is based on a wire's designed ability to conduct X amount of amperage. The ABYC refers to this as a wire's "ampacity," a word you won't find in any dictionary.
> 
> In your case there is another consideration, however, that centers on a notable exemption to the over-current or fuse requirement for a circuit. Your solar panels are what are known as "self-limiting" devices, *meaning that no matter what, the amount of amperage they can produce is limited to the rating you have already established. So, as long as the cabling you have installed has a basic "ampacity" that exceeds the 25-30 amps you have mentioned, you are not required by standards to install a fuse or breaker. In fact, the breaker or fuse would never trip in the event of a short circuit between the panels and your charge controller.* Remember that what blows fuses and trips circuit breakers is amperage that is excessive for the circuit in question. Also, fuses and circuit breakers won't actually trip at whatever their nominal rating is. A 30-amp fuse, for example, won't actually trip until it is exposed to current between 125 and 160 percent of that nominal value, depending on the design of the specific fuse in question.


So, it seems that unless there was some kind of surge coming through my controller - the failure happened on the battery side. But even then, based on the above, would a fuse have prevented that failure? And would it have caused the meltdown? It doesn't make sense to me. But knowing some of these details would be far better than ignoring them and just buying something more expensive.


----------



## cupper3

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> No, you read that right, they don't have a fuse in their wiring diagram. Morons.
> 
> The installation manual of the controller that you have ordered will tell you. It will also tell you what minimum cable size to use, dependent on cable lengths.


Obviously not built to purpose.

Just like some boats are built to be fine dock queens, some fine coastal cruisers, and some fine blue water ones.

As this lesson has taught, be careful about confusing those. It can and does get you into trouble when being too complacent, or ignorant, about the capabilities of your equipment. This is a good lesson, as I may have made that same mistake with the controller myself.


----------



## gptyk

Generically, you use a fuse (or breaker) to protect from burning up the wire. I.e. for 10g wire, you'd fuse it at 30A. Then, if the wire shorted to something (making it an electric heater) - it would draw more than 30A and pop the fuse. It's fine to "underfuse" - i.e. a 20A fuse on 10g wire. Never the other way.

For a single panel if your panel cannot output enough current to burn up the wire, a fuse between panel and controller is not 100% necessary - as it will never actually blow. For instance, let's say you have a panel that Isc is 9A and you fuse it at 10A. Even shorted, the fuse will never blow. And properly sized wiring could easily handle 9A forever. 

Anything/everything hooked to your battery needs a fuse, and it may have popped as the cheap controller was melting down.


----------



## smackdaddy

gptyk said:


> Generically, you use a fuse (or breaker) to protect from burning up the wire. I.e. for 10g wire, you'd fuse it at 30A. Then, if the wire shorted to something (making it an electric heater) - it would draw more than 30A and pop the fuse. It's fine to "underfuse" - i.e. a 20A fuse on 10g wire. Never the other way.
> 
> For a single panel if your panel cannot output enough current to burn up the wire, a fuse between panel and controller is not 100% necessary - as it will never actually blow. For instance, let's say you have a panel that Isc is 9A and you fuse it at 10A. Even shorted, the fuse will never blow. And properly sized wiring could easily handle 9A forever.
> 
> Anything/everything hooked to your battery needs a fuse, and it may have popped as the cheap controller was melting down.


Cool. Thanks GP. The kit came with 4 panels. I only installed 3 - so it certainly shouldn't be a power issue on the panel side - at least I wouldn't think so. The cabling that came with the kit was:

*AWG 10 Rating Voltage: 600/1000V Temperature: -40 DegreeF to +185 Degree*

And it's a 30A controller. So, the only thing I could see doing differently is adding the 30A fuse at the battery. I'll definitely do that.

Still, that doesn't answer this question about the positive versus negative controllers. That's a weird one I still don't fully understand. And there is still the question about the fried battery in the bank - and whether that was what led to the meltdown (or vice versa).

It would be nice to know the failure sequence to be able to fix this kind of stuff moving forward.

Anyway - thanks again for the details.


----------



## miatapaul

smackdaddy said:


> Cool. Thanks GP. The kit came with 4 panels. I only installed 3 - so it certainly shouldn't be a power issue on the panel side - at least I wouldn't think so. The cabling that came with the kit was:
> 
> *AWG 10 Rating Voltage: 600/1000V Temperature: -40 DegreeF to +185 Degree*
> 
> And it's a 30A controller. So, the only thing I could see doing differently is adding the 30A fuse at the battery. I'll definitely do that.
> 
> Still, that doesn't answer this question about the positive versus negative controllers. That's a weird one I still don't fully understand. And there is still the question about the fried battery in the bank - and whether that was what led to the meltdown (or vice versa).
> 
> It would be nice to know the failure sequence to be able to fix this kind of stuff moving forward.
> 
> Anyway - thanks again for the details.


That is strange about the positive ground, I have not seen that since the early 1960's British cars. Had to buy a "converter box" to install a stereo on an old MGA I used to work on. (happened to belong to the same family who took me out sailing so I guess it is not off topic!) Other than that I have not seen any positive ground anything. Seems negative ground is the defacto world standard. I don't understand why someone would use positive ground.

If it were me I would just buy some waterproof fuses put one on the output of the panel, and one between the controller and the battery. I don't see any disadvantage (other than some connections to go bad) and they are very inexpensive.


----------



## mitiempo

I have not installed a fuse between the panel and controller and do not think it is necessary. What I posted is that some manufacturers specify it be added - Midnite Solar for one. Every wire attached to a battery should be fused.

10 gauge wire (tinned boat cable) rated 105 degrees C dry has an ampacity of 60 amps. Because of this the fuse can be larger than 30 amp rating. One thing to keep in mind is that a fuse has a resistance and the smaller the fuse the more resistance. If the controller is rated for 30 amps I would use a fuse of 40 amps minimum, but even 50 amps is ok. 

I have never seen a controller by a respected manufacturer that is positive ground.


----------



## Maine Sail

smackdaddy said:


> Okay - I found another potential issue that I had not noticed before. The controller that comes with this kit is _positive_ grounded. Looking through the reviews on Amazon there appears to be a lot of confusion over this as many of the buyers are using them for RV installations. In searching through other controller options, I also see that there are also negative grounded controllers (but the Morningstar doesn't seem to indicate one way or the other: ProStar » Morningstar Corporation). I assume negative is what you want in an RV/boat application - and that these higher end controllers are negative?
> 
> Could that have been the problem? And if so, why did it take so long to fail?


D'oh you got "Chinesed"......:hammer

Did you see this little gem in the _incomplete & inadequate Chinglish _ manual?

*"Note:* *For safety, do not exceed 80% of charge controller current rating. This rating should be based on total short-circuit current of the solar panels."*

Hmmm a "30A" controller that is really only a 24A controller and at panel Isc not nominal max..

The only industry that is still using a _positive grounded system_ is in telecom. The SunPower proprietary system is also positive ground and this is why they only sell their product to _licensed dealers_..

The sheer fact that Renogy is willing to sell a POSITIVE GROUND solar controller, via Amazon, to what amounts to a high percentage of DIY's with little clue what that even means, speaks volumes about how sketchy this company is. Anything to make a buck of unsuspecting Amazon buyers....

PLEASE REVIEW YOUR _VERIFIED PURCHASE_ ON AMAZON AND USE THE PICTURE FEATURE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This absurd level of crap needs to stop before an entire marina is burned down...

Seems like what you got is likely an overstock low budget telecom controller by a company willing to do anything to make a quick buck.

Boats, RV's and off grid systems are NEGATIVE GROUND.... If you wired it negative ground, in a negative ground system and then touched anything to the "load" terminals, d'oh..... I hope you did not use the _load terminals_....

***You do not need a fuse on the PV side of the controller as the PV is self limiting. Course if you grossly undersized the wire then a fuse on the PV side may be a good idea. If the wire was sized for 3% or less voltage drop then there should be no issue on the PV side of the controller.

***You _MUST_ have a fuse in the positive wire between the battery and controller and it should be within 7" of the positive battery terminal. It is simply amazing that the manual tells you to connect the controller to a battery but gives ZERO guidance on over current protection? Wow, just WOW!!

***That controller internally temp compensates to ambient temp this means it needs to be as close to the batteries as possible so as not be measuring a different ambient temp than the batteries.....

***The max voltage of that controller is 42V and if you wired your panels in series, this would be bad......

Please stay away from CHEAP CHINESE SOLAR CRAP unless you want the next fire to be a successful one. Yes, you _do often get what you paid for._..

Stick with Morningstar, Blue Sky, Genasun, Victron, Midnite, Outback, Western etc...

The guy you got your MPPT info from does not even understand Ohm's law.


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## Maine Sail

mitiempo said:


> I have not installed a fuse between the panel and controller and do not think it is necessary. What I posted is that some manufacturers specify it be added - Midnite Solar for one. Every wire attached to a battery should be fused.


This is because land based standards (NEC) require it due to the higher voltages used on land based systems and the fact that the PV system is usually "grid tied".....

On low voltage DC marine systems a fuse before the controller won't do anything except corrode, cause more voltage drop and create another spot for high resistance. The ABYC standards do not require a fuse between the PV and controller because the PV is a current limited charge source. The ABYC standards _do_ require a fuse at the battery end...


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## MedSailor

Maine Sail said:


> The only industry that is still using a _positive grounded system_ is in telecom. The SunPower proprietary system is also positive ground and this is why they only sell their product to _licensed dealers_..
> 
> The sheer fact that Renogy is willing to sell a POSITIVE GROUND solar controller, via Amazon, to what amounts to a high percentage of DIY's with little clue what that even means, speaks volumes about how sketchy this company is. Anything to make a buck of unsuspecting Amazon buyers....
> 
> PLEASE REVIEW YOUR _VERIFIED PURCHASE_ ON AMAZON AND USE THE PICTURE FEATURE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> This absurd level of crap needs to stop before an entire marina is burned down...
> 
> Seems like what you got is likely an overstock low budget telecom controller by a company willing to do anything to make a quick buck.


WOW! That's messed up.

One of my big take home points to reinforce in my head is that EVERY POSITIVE WIRE needs a fuse. If someone (even a manual) says it doesn't I should still need some serious convincing.

MedSailor


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## smackdaddy

Maine Sail said:


> D'oh you got "Chinesed"......:hammer
> 
> Did you see this little gem in the _incomplete & inadequate Chinglish _ manual?
> 
> *"Note:* *For safety, do not exceed 80% of charge controller current rating. This rating should be based on total short-circuit current of the solar panels."*
> 
> Hmmm a "30A" controller that is really only a 24A controller and at panel Isc not nominal max..
> 
> The only industry that is still using a _positive grounded system_ is in telecom. The SunPower proprietary system is also positive ground and this is why they only sell their product to _licensed dealers_..
> 
> The sheer fact that Renogy is willing to sell a POSITIVE GROUND solar controller, via Amazon, to what amounts to a high percentage of DIY's with little clue what that even means, speaks volumes about how sketchy this company is. Anything to make a buck of unsuspecting Amazon buyers....
> 
> PLEASE REVIEW YOUR _VERIFIED PURCHASE_ ON AMAZON AND USE THE PICTURE FEATURE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> This absurd level of crap needs to stop before an entire marina is burned down...
> 
> Seems like what you got is likely an overstock low budget telecom controller by a company willing to do anything to make a quick buck.
> 
> Boats, RV's and off grid systems are NEGATIVE GROUND.... If you wired it negative ground, in a negative ground system and then touched anything to the "load" terminals, d'oh..... I hope you did not use the _load terminals_....
> 
> ***You do not need a fuse on the PV side of the controller as the PV is self limiting. Course if you grossly undersized the wire then a fuse on the PV side may be a good idea. If the wire was sized for 3% or less voltage drop then there should be no issue on the PV side of the controller.
> 
> ***You _MUST_ have a fuse in the positive wire between the battery and controller and it should be within 7" of the positive battery terminal. It is simply amazing that the manual tells you to connect the controller to a battery but gives ZERO guidance on over current protection? Wow, just WOW!!
> 
> ***That controller internally temp compensates to ambient temp this means it needs to be as close to the batteries as possible so as not be measuring a different ambient temp than the batteries.....
> 
> ***The max voltage of that controller is 42V and if you wired your panels in series, this would be bad......
> 
> Please stay away from CHEAP CHINESE SOLAR CRAP unless you want the next fire to be a successful one. Yes, you _do often get what you paid for._..
> 
> Stick with Morningstar, Blue Sky, Genasun, Victron, Midnite, Outback, Western etc...
> 
> The guy you got your MPPT info from does not even understand Ohm's law.


Cool. Thanks Maine. BTW - I had nothing on the load side. Just the panels and batteries were connected.

I emailed Renogy the narrative and photos - with an explanation that their installation instructions were potentially dangerous - and will let you guys know what I hear back. This was from the first response:



> From the pictures it looks like the negative side on the battery side is what burned/failed first. I am not sure what could have caused the controller to fail in this matter. If the failure started on the negative side then fusing the system would not have helped. We have updated our manuals to include fuses. From the panels to the controller you could use a 35 amp fuse then from the controller to the battery bank a 30 amp fuse.


PS - On the MPPT info, that's not "a guy"...that's Solarcraft, a major Texas-based solar company with huge industrial clients that's been in business for 20 years.


----------



## seaner97

FWIW I have a Genasun that I was very happy with. Only one season old, but Maine has generally had good things to say about them.


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## smackdaddy

Okay - I heard back from Renogy and they won't be replacing this unit and have acknowledged the misleading and/or missing information:



> Thank you for this information. Unfortunately the charge controller is out of warranty so we won't be able to replace it. I have informed my customer service about this issue and they will offer a 15% discount on your next charge controller purchase.


Not happening. I'll go with a Morningstar as recommended. Then when I told them that they really needed to clarify their information on Amazon or there would be more problems like this that could get them and others into real trouble, I got this...



> The positive ground controller will work in a negative ground system as long as the load terminals are not used. I did see the listing and it was not mentioned that the controller is a positive ground. I have informed my marketing department and they will be fixing this shortly. We will make it clear so the customer knows what he is buying. Thank you for bringing this up.


I also left a review with the pics on Amazon. Awaiting approval (I haven't been banned there yet - heh-heh).

Spread the word.


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## Shockwave

Sorry to hear about all your troubles Smack. I hope things turn around and you and your boys get to go cruising next summer.

Shock out...


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## smackdaddy

Shockwave said:


> Sorry to hear about all your troubles Smack. I hope things turn around and you and your boys get to go cruising next summer.
> 
> Shock out...


No worries Shock. Troubles haven't stopped us yet. We'll get back out there.


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## Shockwave

Good for you Smack, hang in there.


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## gptyk

smackdaddy said:


> I also left a review with the pics on Amazon. Awaiting approval (I haven't been banned there yet - heh-heh).
> 
> Spread the word.


Not banned yet? Maybe you should try harder


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## smackdaddy

Okay - I'll do a blog write-up and video soon - but just wanted to say I've FINALLY ordered a re-manufactured Yanmar to replace our busted one. The legal stuff is continuing, and probably will be for a while. But we finally reached a milestone in the case where I could make a move on my own. The downside is that it is all coming out of our pockets since the case is ongoing. The upside is that if all goes well, we'll be able to continue our trip in June.

Also, Maine will be very pleased to know that I installed this baby and got everything back up and running for the solar:










I currently have the 4-battery bank out of the boat and am just using our single spare battery for the house bank while the boat is being worked on (all we need it for is the bilge pump while we're away) - so I haven't yet connected the fuse, etc. So, I disconnected everything after this test and will wait until I get the full bank back on the boat. But everything looked good during the day we tested.

Finally, I'm happy to report that these didn't fall out and sink the boat even though they are completely flush with the hull and don't have any 9/16" through bolts with backing plates - just Elmers glue probably:










Livin' on the edge.

So, I feel like we're moving forward again after such a long wait. We'll see how it all turns out.


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## smackdaddy

The company I'm ordering the engine and drive from asked me for the gear ratio I need. How do I find out what that is?


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## bristol299bob

My yanmar has it on a plate on the transmission:


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## smackdaddy

bristol299bob said:


> My yanmar has it on a plate on the transmission:


Awesome - I'll take a look on mine. I took lots of pics when this failure happened, so I'm sure I have it somewhere.

Thanks Bob.


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## MedSailor

smackdaddy said:


> The company I'm ordering the engine and drive from asked me for the gear ratio I need. How do I find out what that is?


Might also look for that picture that says if your prop is LH or RH and give them that info. You never know...

MedSailor


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## RTB

smackdaddy said:


> Okay - I'll do a blog write-up and video soon - but just wanted to say I've FINALLY ordered a re-manufactured Yanmar to replace our busted one. The legal stuff is continuing, and probably will be for a while. But we finally reached a milestone in the case where I could make a move on my own. The downside is that it is all coming out of our pockets since the case is ongoing. The upside is that if all goes well, we'll be able to continue our trip in June.
> 
> So, I feel like we're moving forward again after such a long wait. We'll see how it all turns out.


Hey, all the best buddy!

We've been hanging out in Russell Pass, the Everglades for 4 days. Not much internet to be had down here, but it comes and goes. We should be in Boot Key Harbor on Wednesday. We'll stay there for 2-3 weeks, doing some boat projects. Finally starting to have a few issues with this old Hunter. Mostly electrical stuff, so don't feel like you are the only guy out there that has stuff break. The dinghy engine is running like crap now, too. It's always something. I think everyone does (have problems) now and then. Hang in there and we'll see you again one of these days.

Ralph


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## smackdaddy

RTB said:


> Hey, all the best buddy!
> 
> We've been hanging out in Russell Pass, the Everglades for 4 days. Not much internet to be had down here, but it comes and goes. We should be in Boot Key Harbor on Wednesday. We'll stay there for 2-3 weeks, doing some boat projects. Finally starting to have a few issues with this old Hunter. Mostly electrical stuff, so don't feel like you are the only guy out there that has stuff break. The dinghy engine is running like crap now, too. It's always something. I think everyone does (have problems) now and then. Hang in there and we'll see you again one of these days.
> 
> Ralph


Thanks Ralph. We'll see you guys out there soon.


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## Don L

RTB said:


> The dinghy engine is running like crap now, too. It's always something.


You want that outboard to run well? Start saying out loud how you are going to replace it and look up prices. It will then start running well until a month goes by and you forget and it quits on you while you are between the boat and shore. This will repeat for a few years until you finally catch on and just get a replacement!

Just my direct personal experience.


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## oysterman23

Mine was temperamental till I rebuilt the carb and started running out the gas after each use. Its a 96 mariner and starts on 1 or 2 pull.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk


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## chall03

Thanks for the update Smack. Hope all goes well with the re engine and you and the boys are back BFSing soon. 

Keep your eye on those windows buddy.....


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## smackdaddy

Well - $9,430* later, the new engine is here...



















She's definitely nice and shiny! The goal is to drop her into _Dawn Treader_ sometime next week - and get our baby back up and running and ready for this summer's adventures.

Stay tuned for a video update in the next month or so.

(* The engine was $6,600 with a $2,500 core charge and $330 shipping. We'll see what I get back on the core charge when I ship our old engine back to the vendor. This new/re-manufactured engine has a 1 year warranty. Our legal case still going...but I finally got the okay to move forward.)


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## MedSailor

A remanufactured engine is a wonderful thing! 

Paint the bilge bright gloss white and line the underside with absorbers. If there are teething or break in issues it'll make finding them that much quicker. 


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk


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## GeorgeB

Smack,
Glad to see you have turned a big corner. With the old engine out, are you planning on doing any additional modifications or improvements like insulation, engine mounts, or wiring? Hope to see you on the water real soon!


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## smackdaddy

GeorgeB said:


> Smack,
> Glad to see you have turned a big corner. With the old engine out, are you planning on doing any additional modifications or improvements like insulation, engine mounts, or wiring? Hope to see you on the water real soon!


Thanks George.

I'm replacing fuel lines, water/exhaust lines, and doing some electrical upgrades (heavier gauge on the alternator and ground cables, etc.) - but that's about it.

The insulation was already in good shape and very effective, and we already had new engine mounts and brackets as that was part of the work the previous company did.

So, hopefully this will be a pretty straightforward swap.


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## GeorgeB

Good deal. Take advantage of that empty space do some work unencumbered by a big engine filling out the space. – And don’t forget to do that Mainsail thing and “spit polish and Brasso” that compartment while you can. (I want to see your pictures!) I’ve just come off of swapping out my old, horrid Sherwood water pump for a “front loading” Oberdorfer. No more long and tedious impeller swap-outs for me. I’m currently installing some LEDs in the engine compartment so I won’t have to suck the end of a flashlight in the middle of the night while checking out the engine. We are on path for our own extended cruise this fall.


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## robert sailor

If there is anything that might require removing your engine to replace or repair now would be the time. For example some fuel tanks require engine removal, even simple things like water pumps or hand bilge pumps can be easily replaced with the engine removed.


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## MedSailor

robert sailor said:


> If there is anything that might require removing your engine to replace or repair now would be the time. For example some fuel tanks require engine removal, even simple things like water pumps or hand bilge pumps can be easily replaced with the engine removed.


Sound advice to be sure. When my engine kaptut-itself I found myself in a position where, since it was an unplanned kaput, I wasn't flush with cash and ready to sign a bunch of new worth authorizations.

I agree though, definitely do as much as you can while it's out that would be hard to do when it's in.


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## smackdaddy

Maybe I should have my structural grid removed and replaced with tabbed in beams and floors? While the engine is out....


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## Don L

smackdaddy said:


> Maybe I should have my structural grid removed and replaced with tabbed in beams and floors? While the engine is out....


Why? Just tab the grids if you want to be all crazy.


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## smackdaddy

Dropping the new engine in tomorrow morning. Gulp!

Lots of video coming.

PS- Had to hire new lawyers. Long freakin' story. Moral: When you're tied to the stakes, everyone wants to have a go for cheap. Here's to ripping up stakes. #NotMeMFer.


----------



## smackdaddy

The new engine on its way in. More to come...










Oh- and the new Morningstar controller is rocking it. Thanks Maine!


----------



## uncle stinky bob

smackdaddy said:


> The new engine on its way in. More to come...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh- and the new Morningstar controller is rocking it. Thanks Maine!


Thats an awesome photo smack!


----------



## smackdaddy

I'm on our boat right now. Stormy night. Having a scotch before bed.

I am never more content than when I'm on _Dawn Treader_. Sure, she's torn apart right now as we get the new engine in - and there are a million projects to do before we head out this summer (e.g. - the anchor locker drain backed up and leaked inside, fresh water line is leaking at one of the fittings, etc.). But it's okay.

She's here. Rocking gently in the ripples of the marina. Wind whining through the rigging. Creaking of the lines.

It's a deep down kind of thing. I love our boat. I really do. No other "thing" has this kind of pull. It's amazing.


----------



## slap

smackdaddy said:


> I'm on our boat right now. Stormy night. Having a scotch before bed.
> 
> I am never more content than when I'm on _Dawn Treader_. Sure, she's torn apart right now as we get the new engine in - and there are a million projects to do before we head out this summer (e.g. - the anchor locker drain backed up and leaked inside, fresh water line is leaking at one of the fittings, etc.). But it's okay.
> 
> She's here. Rocking gently in the ripples of the marina. Wind whining through the rigging. Creaking of the lines.
> 
> It's a deep down kind of thing. I love our boat. I really do. No other "thing" has this kind of pull. It's amazing.


GOOD GOD MAN!
If you don't have a steel boat, you all are going to DIE!

:laugh


----------



## PNWHunter40

Smack......gotta love that Hunter40! Great article on your web site on getting to Hunter. I had already found ours before reading it but it just confirmed most of my reasons for the excellent choice. One of the things I like is that with all the white inside it is bright even on a cloudy day. An item that came up on our rigging survey was a crack in the weld on the lower starboard spreader. Just a note for you.

Hope you are done with the engine soon and back to your journey with the Smack boys!


----------



## RainDog

smackdaddy said:


> I'm on our boat right now. Stormy night. Having a scotch before bed.
> 
> I am never more content than when I'm on _Dawn Treader_. Sure, she's torn apart right now as we get the new engine in - and there are a million projects to do before we head out this summer (e.g. - the anchor locker drain backed up and leaked inside, fresh water line is leaking at one of the fittings, etc.). But it's okay.
> 
> She's here. Rocking gently in the ripples of the marina. Wind whining through the rigging. Creaking of the lines.
> 
> It's a deep down kind of thing. I love our boat. I really do. No other "thing" has this kind of pull. It's amazing.


There has never been a better example of why all the "whats the best boat...." threads are missing the point.

Being there is 99.9% of the fun.


----------



## RTB

smackdaddy said:


> I'm on our boat right now. Stormy night. Having a scotch before bed.
> 
> I am never more content than when I'm on _Dawn Treader_. Sure, she's torn apart right now as we get the new engine in - and there are a million projects to do before we head out this summer (e.g. - the anchor locker drain backed up and leaked inside, fresh water line is leaking at one of the fittings, etc.). But it's okay.
> 
> She's here. Rocking gently in the ripples of the marina. Wind whining through the rigging. Creaking of the lines.
> 
> It's a deep down kind of thing. I love our boat. I really do. No other "thing" has this kind of pull. It's amazing.


I'm happy to see you making progress. Have fun going East. It's a fun trip, and the West Coast of Florida is very nice. BTW, we're in Daytona for a couple of days, then on to St. Augustine. These old Hunters still got some life left in them.

Ralph


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## robert sailor

Consider this...out of all the money one spends in his/her life can you think of anything of a material nature that gives you more fun and enjoyment than a sailboat? As Smack suggests he is enjoying himself just being on it..You can never make a financial case for owning a sailboat, they are all money sponges at the very least but on a dollar for dollar fun meter they have been winners in my life.


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## MedSailor

robert sailor said:


> You can never make a financial case for owning a sailboat, they are all money sponges at the very least but on a dollar for dollar fun meter they have been winners in my life.


I think where people go wrong with the "financial case" for the sailboat, is that they get confused because it is a thing. We tend to think of things as having value, and either appreciating or (boat) depreciating.

I think of expenses on our boats as money being spent on experiences. I think of it as if I were spending money on plane tickets, hotels and meals in Europe for example. Nobody expects a financial return on investment from a trip overseas, but I think most can appreciate (pun intended) the value that is gained from spending money on experiences.

MedSailor


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## Minnewaska

MedSailor said:


> I think where people go wrong with the "financial case" for the sailboat, is that they get confused because it is a thing. We tend to think of things as having value, and either appreciating or (boat) depreciating.
> 
> I think of expenses on our boats as money being spent on experiences. I think of it as if I were spending money on plane tickets, hotels and meals in Europe for example. Nobody expects a financial return on investment from a trip overseas, but I think most can appreciate (pun intended) the value that is gained from spending money on experiences.
> 
> MedSailor


I think of it as a waterfront second home that my wife can't redecorate repeatedly. I'm so far ahead financially, it's amazing.


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## robert sailor

That is really funny!


----------



## smackdaddy

The next installment on the engine debacle...


----------



## capecodda

Nice video smack.

We've had multiple yard induced problems with the various boats we've owned. Truth is IMHO it happens a lot. The best I've done with the more reputable yards is come to some sort of middle ground. Most yards have an easier time giving you a work credit than $$$'s for an error. Most yards I've dealt with are not making much money, no matter what they charge per hour. And most yards have a mix of people working for them, some that know what they are doing, and some that don't.

Bottom line is that it isn't like dealing with an F500 company that has a team of lawyers and may fear a class action suit for bad air bags or something. The good and bad of boat yards is they are small, tend to be relationship based if well run, but don't have deep pockets. It tends to be personal.

We've gotten the best results when we could get good references on the yard before doing work, met the actual person who's going to do it an evaluated their skills, and kept a close eye on things. Even with all that, s**** happens.

My counsel would be try to make an amicable deal, and move on. Expect to open your wallet, if you already haven't. 

And go sailing with those boys! Life goes by awful fast.


----------



## smackdaddy

Thanks Cape. I tried very hard to reach a reasonable compromise with the company, but, unfortunately, it actually went the other direction. It's a crazy tale. I won't say more than that right now. But I definitely tried.

In the mean time, I _have_ opened my wallet and we have a new engine in the boat now. David, the mechanic in the video (a great, great guy) is getting it finished up as we speak - so we should hopefully be able to continue our trip this summer.

My next video will explain more of what has happened. I've just had to be very careful about how I communicate this story - as you can imagine. So I'm working very hard to just present the facts, while things are still being worked through.


----------



## VF84Sluggo

Man. Tough situation, Smack. Too bad the boatyard decided to play hardball.

Hope it all eventually gets sorted out to a reasonable level of satisfaction.

Sluggo


----------



## MastUndSchotbruch

smackdaddy said:


> The next installment on the engine debacle...]


I am no mechanic. But I find it strange that a misaligned shaft could do damage to the main bearing of a motor. Isn't there a thrust bearing that takes the axial force from the shaft?

Willing to be educated...


----------



## gptyk

I'm not an expert. I have a GAS engine in my sailboat. 

But methinks that the huge clue is that the shaft still was turned by the engine in neutral. But that's hard to prove without calling for more guns, money, and lawyers. 

Awaiting more info, as I've been lurking along to Smack's stories for quite awhile.

Hope y'all get cruising soon.


----------



## MastUndSchotbruch

gptyk said:


> I'm not an expert. I have a GAS engine in my sailboat.
> 
> But methinks that the huge clue is that the shaft still was turned by the engine in neutral. But that's hard to prove without calling for more guns, money, and lawyers.
> 
> Awaiting more info, as I've been lurking along to Smack's stories for quite awhile.
> 
> Hope y'all get cruising soon.


My shaft also turns in neutral, except if you put the gear shift lever JUST in the perfect position. I think very little friction somewhere in the reversing gear allows the shaft to turn very easily.


----------



## Capt Len

Wrong oil (too viscous ) can cause that. Maybe the detent can be adjusted.


----------



## PNWHunter40

Smack,

Thanks for the great video update. As someone mentioned earlier the industry seems to have more than it's fair share of paying through the nose for sub standard service. It got me thinking about what consumer protections we have as boaters.

It seems that you need to go into a project prepared for the worst and hope for the best. With that in mind what do we do?

One of the biggest things is always pay with a credit card never cash. With a credit card there is the ability of doing a charge back with the card issuer for faulty goods or SERVICES. Now you have legal leverage. That means that the credit card will hold the charge in dispute. There is a procedure outlined with each card issuer check yours. Basically you have to prove you have in good faith tried to resolve the issue with the business before initiating the charge back. The card company will contact the business and get their side of the story.

That is where being prepared comes in with any photos (before and after), documents or reports like from an independent mechanic will be very helpful.

It starts putting the heat on the business to do the right thing. If you pay cash or check they can blow you off all day. The other steps of corse are:
1.Small claims court. If under 5000.00 I believe. Like a $70.00 filing fee.
2.Civil court. cost around 4k but maybe worth it depending the total cost of work done.

Unfortunately in this instance since the engine issue is the result of suspected inferior work court seems the only recourse since the business won't deal with you otherwise.

It's a shame. Really, really pisses me off!


----------



## overbored

Smack, 
Glade to see you are moving ahead with a new engine. good video so now I have been able to catch up on what happened. I am a little concerned when I here a mechanic says the motor alignment to the shaft caused an engine crankshaft main and thrust bearing to wear out. just a 1 in a 100 trillion chance. the trans output shaft in not coupled to the crank shaft directly. The trans has two shafts an input and output shaft. they are both running in tapered roller bearings which takes any axial and radial load on the output shaft. the shaft would have to pushed through the trans case to come in contact with the clutch and crankshaft assembly. If I was you I would read up on how an engine/ trans is aligned to a prop shaft with feeler gauges so you can assist the mechanic and make sure he understands the procedure also. it is also hard to do while the boat is in the water because you need to put in the temporary shaft centering wedges between the shaft and the stern tube. the shaft needs to be in the center of the tube and aligned with the strut before you can start to align the engine to the shaft. how did they machine the shaft flange on the new flange that they installed? my guess is they did not. the shaft needs the new flange installed on the prop shaft and the flange face machined to be true to the shaft. if this is not done right you will never be able to properly align the engine and the shaft will not run true and vibrate. the story about the engine mounts will break in. well just not true. as you know now. if they need to break in then why do the engines in brand new boats run so smooth. Good luck with the new engine. remember you always have those auxiliary white cloth looking things in case you ever have engine trouble.

Inboard Engine Alignment - Frequently Asked Questions - eBasicPower.com


----------



## MastUndSchotbruch

Capt Len said:


> Wrong oil (too viscous ) can cause that. Maybe the detent can be adjusted.


The oil is the right one (SAE 30) but you may be right about the detent. But it seems a really insignificant problem so I never bothered. The shaft is moving so slowly (maybe a rotation per second) that I don't think it does anything.


----------



## smackdaddy

overbored said:


> Smack,
> Glade to see you are moving ahead with a new engine. good video so now I have been able to catch up on what happened. I am a little concerned when I here a mechanic says the motor alignment to the shaft caused an engine crankshaft main and thrust bearing to wear out. just a 1 in a 100 trillion chance. the trans output shaft in not coupled to the crank shaft directly. The trans has two shafts an input and output shaft. they are both running in tapered roller bearings which takes any axial and radial load on the output shaft. the shaft would have to pushed through the trans case to come in contact with the clutch and crankshaft assembly. If I was you I would read up on how an engine/ trans is aligned to a prop shaft with feeler gauges so you can assist the mechanic and make sure he understands the procedure also. it is also hard to do while the boat is in the water because you need to put in the temporary shaft centering wedges between the shaft and the stern tube. the shaft needs to be in the center of the tube and aligned with the strut before you can start to align the engine to the shaft. how did they machine the shaft flange on the new flange that they installed? my guess is they did not. the shaft needs the new flange installed on the prop shaft and the flange face machined to be true to the shaft. if this is not done right you will never be able to properly align the engine and the shaft will not run true and vibrate. the story about the engine mounts will break in. well just not true. as you know now. if they need to break in then why do the engines in brand new boats run so smooth. Good luck with the new engine. remember you always have those auxiliary white cloth looking things in case you ever have engine trouble.
> 
> Inboard Engine Alignment - Frequently Asked Questions - eBasicPower.com


Well, I'm obviously not qualified to get into the weeds on all this - and I certainly don't have the knowledge or ability to "assist the mechanic" in this area. But I do know this - the mechanic is definitely qualified in marine diesel engines (that's what he does - and was highly recommended). He did a very thorough inspection of the engine before it was pulled from the boat, during its removal, and after it was pulled from the boat, and we then submitted his findings (backed by plenty of evidence) to a Yanmar specialist who agreed with his diagnosis. So, I've got two pros agreeing on what happened based on first-hand knowledge of this engine and this situation.

Furthermore, in additional inspections of the engine and drive (tearing them down further by yet another party with their own Yanmar specialist) there has been absolutely no other indication of what else would have caused this problem (no overheating, good fluids, no water in the oil, no leaks, no blockages, no other breakages, etc.)

So, I don't know where your odds numbers come from - but I've been shown each step of the way why the diagnosis was made by these two pros. And it certainly adds up from everything I can see.

So I'll have to leave it there.

PS - Those sails saved our butts when the engine died in the middle of a very busy ship channel. I love those white cloth things.


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## Capt Len

Well, experts are entitled to their opinions too. gotta be careful with credentials . Utube is full of examples. (by bad teachers) And marine shops too. I've been butt up in a bilge since I was old enough to hand my Dad a wrench and gotta say I like Overboreds post..Seen shafts spring inches after aligned by experts ,But what do I know about your situation! by the way, I start with fitting couple to shaft and checking wobble at the taper , face the two halves of coupling .All this on a big lathe .IN the bilge the shaft is supported in position and tranny flange brought to it. Proper alignment can now start. My dial indicator doesn;t see much action anymore and I'd pass it to a worthy hand.


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## RobGallagher

Good heavens, the shaft still spun in neutral and they said it was fine? How did they expect you to stop the boat?

Holy ****e, look at that engine alignment with the stern tube. I wonder if the shaft could have been spun by hand in neutral at all?

I feel for Ya! I'd be livid.

When the flags go up...listen to them (next time, lesson learned). I hope you have some luck getting things sorted out. I'd get more 'second opinions' and take them to small claims court or at least get a lawyer to start sending letters.

Good luck!


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## Capt Len

M&S If a disc type tranie suffers an over heat and warps a disc even a little it will never quite disengage and the shaft will slowly turn without gusto. in neutral . Other causes like thick oil Or water in oil or crud from wear or too quick change while reved can do it too.It's no biggie until it manifests itself in failure to fully dis/engage or always hot .Just my opinion as a bystander


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## Omatako

I will be very interested in the professional diagnosis of this failure. My understanding of marine drive units is that they contain a robust thrust device against which the prop shaft pushes. The thrust from the drive should never reach the back of the crankshaft.

This engine failure leaves me with sense of disbelief and for me, challenges the seemingly unassailable reputation for quality the Yanmar engines enjoy. Here's why.

I have the exact same engine in my boat. Some years ago it suffered an oil leak so bad that it pumped the entire contents of the sump into the bilge and set off the alarm buzzer within about four minutes of a cold start.

The cause? The thrust plate at the front of the camshaft had worn away to the extent that the camshaft was able to move backwards far enough to rub against the plug in the back of the block (that seals the camshaft gallery). With the constant contact, the end of the camshaft welded itself to the plug and spun it in its aperture, destroying the perfect finish needed for the plug to create a leak-proof seal. Effectively the engine block was scrap.

I'm not going to go into the extent of the repair I had to do to save the engine but it worked and the engine has done another 1000-odd hours since then. But I'm left wondering about the quality of the thrust components in Yanmar engines. This failure does nothing to ease my concerns.

Whilst I agree that the misalignment shown in Smack's video is pretty dismal and the engineer's acceptance of a shaft turning while in neutral is surprising, I am skeptical of such misalignment causing an engine failure like this. I'm more of the opinion that this is generic Yanmar.

Smack, please post information on the final assessment of the failure - I would be keen to read it. It would seem to be a great coincidence for the engine to fail at the same time as the engine re-alignment and not be connected but my skepticism persists.

As M&S said, I'm OK to be educated . . . .


----------



## MastUndSchotbruch

Capt Len said:


> M&S If a disc type tranie suffers an over heat and warps a disc even a little it will never quite disengage and the shaft will slowly turn without gusto. in neutral . Other causes like thick oil Or water in oil or crud from wear or too quick change while reved can do it too.It's no biggie until it manifests itself in failure to fully dis/engage or always hot .Just my opinion as a bystander


Yes, all good reasons that could cause it. However, I believe that in my case, it is nothing more than a bit of play in the control cable. As you probably know, the Atomic 4 needs a lot of force for the reversing gear and, as a consequence, a much sturdier cable than diesels. I have a pretty old cable with a bit of play in it. If I put the lever just so, the shaft disengages and stops turning. If not, the shaft turns "without gusto" (I like your term!), maybe a rotation per second. I have never tried it (and don't intend to do so) but it seems there is so little force on it you could stop it by hand. I think the reason is a tiny bit of friction somewhere because the cable/shifting lever is not in the perfect position and the disks are just rubbing on each other.

I am pretty sure this is harmless. Am I wrong?


----------



## smackdaddy

Andre - in this case what I understand from the notes is that the flywheel-side thrust was _*asymmetrically*_ worn down - significantly. And it was the main bearing (at the flywheel-side of the engine) that failed as you can see in the video. There certainly appeared to be "uneven" force at that thrust.

Again, I'm not a pro and this is just my lay understanding. So forgive the terminology slaughter. But the measurements indicated atypical wear.


----------



## ccriders

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> Yes, all good reasons that could cause it. However, I believe that in my case, it is nothing more than a bit of play in the control cable. As you probably know, the Atomic 4 needs a lot of force for the reversing gear and, as a consequence, a much sturdier cable than diesels. I have a pretty old cable with a bit of play in it. If I put the lever just so, the shaft disengages and stops turning. If not, the shaft turns "without gusto" (I like your term!), maybe a rotation per second. I have never tried it (and don't intend to do so) but it seems there is so little force on it you could stop it by hand. I think the reason is a tiny bit of friction somewhere because the cable/shifting lever is not in the perfect position and the disks are just rubbing on each other.
> 
> I am pretty sure this is harmless. Am I wrong?


I don't know if it is harmless or not. Investigating the same situation on my boat I found that the shift cable housing had slipped in its clamp just before the boats shift lever, not the engines, when I reseated it, the slow rotation went away.


----------



## RTB

So, how long you gonna make us wait for another update smack? Is the new engine in and running at least? 

Ralph


----------



## Shockwave

Omatako said:


> I will be very interested in the professional diagnosis of this failure. My understanding of marine drive units is that they contain a robust thrust device against which the prop shaft pushes. The thrust from the drive should never reach the back of the crankshaft.
> 
> This engine failure leaves me with sense of disbelief and for me, challenges the seemingly unassailable reputation for quality the Yanmar engines enjoy. Here's why.
> 
> I have the exact same engine in my boat. Some years ago it suffered an oil leak so bad that it pumped the entire contents of the sump into the bilge and set off the alarm buzzer within about four minutes of a cold start.
> 
> The cause? The thrust plate at the front of the camshaft had worn away to the extent that the camshaft was able to move backwards far enough to rub against the plug in the back of the block (that seals the camshaft gallery). With the constant contact, the end of the camshaft welded itself to the plug and spun it in its aperture, destroying the perfect finish needed for the plug to create a leak-proof seal. Effectively the engine block was scrap.
> 
> I'm not going to go into the extent of the repair I had to do to save the engine but it worked and the engine has done another 1000-odd hours since then. But I'm left wondering about the quality of the thrust components in Yanmar engines. This failure does nothing to ease my concerns.
> 
> Whilst I agree that the misalignment shown in Smack's video is pretty dismal and the engineer's acceptance of a shaft turning while in neutral is surprising, I am skeptical of such misalignment causing an engine failure like this. I'm more of the opinion that this is generic Yanmar.
> 
> Smack, please post information on the final assessment of the failure - I would be keen to read it. It would seem to be a great coincidence for the engine to fail at the same time as the engine re-alignment and not be connected but my skepticism persists.
> 
> As M&S said, I'm OK to be educated . . . .


.

Omat, it's also possible the main bearings spun leading to the catastrophic failure of the engine. Reasons? To many to list: infrequent oil changes, low oil levels, dirty oil, wear, oil pump failure, high revs on a cold engine.... who knows and the damage may have accumulated over many years with the failure finally occurring. Engines love fresh oil and a preluber can be a good addition to an infrequently used engine like those found on our boats. After sitting for a while the oil drains away from the bearings and we are essentially starting a cold engine without any lubrication.


----------



## Mantus 1

Good luck with finding your leak! our 42 Passage HAD aluminum tanks. And the bow tank started leaking i think years ago. But after a rough trip we blew a bigger hole in it. At that point it was running right in to the bulge! If you want to see what i had to do to change our tank check out our Facebook page and you will see that i have changed out both water and the waste tanks. The page is S/V Our Way Too!


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## smackdaddy

RTB said:


> So, how long you gonna make us wait for another update smack? Is the new engine in and running at least?
> 
> Ralph


The new engine and drive (that I paid for out-of-pocket) is in and is running beautifully. We just finished all that up last Tuesday. We have a few minor things to wrap up this weekend, then we should be good to go. I'll re-start our episodes from there, then circle back on the engine saga details if/when it's appropriate.

PS - Mantus, I'll take a look at your FB page. The hypocote epoxy worked like a charm for ours. Water tastes and smells great.


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## RTB

smackdaddy said:


> The new engine and drive (that I paid for out-of-pocket) is in and is running beautifully. We just finished all that up last Tuesday. We have a few minor things to wrap up this weekend, then we should be good to go. I'll re-start our episodes from there, then circle back on the engine saga details if/when it's appropriate.


Thanks Steve. I know you want to put the whole story out there, but I'm so pleased to hear that the boat is basically back in working condition.

Hopefully, you and the crew will get some real enjoyment from Dawn Treader. I know it's been a lot of heartache, disappointment, and expense for you and the boys. Where we are, it's quite the melting pot for sailors. I guess we are all kind of "free spirit" types. I mentioned my sail with i2f, and how he never completed his Panama>Hawaii>San Francisco>Phillipines trip. None of us knows when our life will end. I'm sure that you know that better than most of us. But...many of us have figured out that we must enjoy what we have today.

So you know....most of us have something that needs fixin (Texas Verb). Hey, a 47' Lagoon was coming into the marina today, just as a squall hit (well, that's normal). Only one engine works since the other has a blown head gasket. He dropped the hook til the winds died down, and came into his slip. Hey, we met up at the free beer and wine "happy hour" at the "yacht club" here at Brunswick Landing Marina.....Pretty cool couple

And I have some electrical gremlins after 4 years of cruising. I have Calder's Mechanical and Electrical Manual, so hope to fix things myself.

All the best to you and the boys! Enjoy the adventure ahead of you.

Ralph


----------



## smackdaddy

Thanks Ralph. Seriously.

And you're absolutely right - this is all about enjoying the precious time I have with my two sons while they're young. Tragedy has shown me what's truly important and what's not. Sailing with my sons and seeing them smile while enjoying big adventure - absolutely important.

You, Bob, and Beverly have met them. You know what I mean.

We'll never stop trying. And we'll see what happens next.

Cheers brother.


----------



## RTB

Hey man...love your boys! Really good kids, and sure you are proud of them. 

Let Bob or me know if there is anything we can help with. We've done the trip ahead of you a few times, so happy to answer questions, or maybe help moving the boat.

Ralph


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## RTB

No doubt that things just quit working on these 30+year old boats.

I just replaced two breakers in the DC panel. One was for water pressure, the other running lights. After installing 2 new breakers, these systems are now working. Carry some spare 5-15 amp breakers just in case. Apparently, these old components don't last forever. The trick is figuring out what is the problem. I figured for sure that the running lights problem was a short....but no. Just the breaker. I'm just offering some tidbits of info for later, just in case you experience similar problems.

http://www.jamestowndistributors.co...+Sea+Systems+Circuit+Breakers+AA1+Single+Pole

Ralph


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## BryceGTX

smackdaddy said:


> Also, Maine will be very pleased to know that I installed this baby and got everything back up and running for the solar:


Hello Smackdaddy... After reading your failure of your PWM controller.. It seems your controller did not melt because of battery power feeding into it, rather it invariably melted because is was not being cooled adequately. After seeing this picture, one could easily imagine clothes, books or other things on this shelf blocking the cooling of your controller. Under such a condition, the only protection of the controller could come from over temperature protection of the electronics. Sadly, not all controllers will have that.

Also, more than likely why the manual of this controller did not specify a fuse was that it had a 35 amp fuse directly on the PCB. This fuse is clearly shown in your pictures. This fuse would have clearly protected the controller from high battery currents. So the damage could not be from high currents from the battery.

Rather it could only come from overheating of the electronics.

Bryce


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## smackdaddy

Bryce - thanks for the reply. There were no clothes or anything else blocking the controller. I made very sure to keep that area clear.

I assume you're talking about the purple fuse on the right in this pic?










Honestly, I don't remember even checking to see if that had blown - I guess since the board was fried anyway. I was paying more attention to where it burned out. You'll see that it appeared to burn at the negative contact for the battery bank. And since that one battery in the bank fried, I just assumed that was the cause of the short back to the controller.

Anyway, it definitely overheated, but not because stuff was around it. I now have a fuse at the battery bank side and this new controller recommended by Maine. So we should be good.


----------



## MedSailor

For those of us with old boats and lots of wiring of various ages and quality, consider installing a "blazecut" fire suppression system in the areas where all the wiring and fuses are densely packed.

It's a clean agent fire chemical (halon replacement) that is put into a pex tube.

Zip tie the tube to any area you are worried about and if a fire or smoldering wire starts it will melt a hole in the pressurized pex tine, creating an instant valve to deploy the suppression agent directly on the fire.

Its cheap, compared to any auto suppression sustem, easy to install and maintain.

No affiliation on my part, but I own one and am clearly impressed.

http://jogrusa.com/products/blazecut-fire-suppression-system

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk


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## RTB

smackdaddy said:


> The new engine and drive (that I paid for out-of-pocket) is in and is running beautifully.


Video with sound.....or it never happened!

Ralph


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## RobDahlgren

Smack, 
Glad to hear you and the boys are back in business. I've been following this whole saga with great interest. We recently purchased one of Dawn Treader's little sisters, a 1990 Hunter 35.5. It's great boat and getting better as I work through my list of projects. Stories like yours have kept me away from the using pros for any of the work so far. I may hire Brion Toss to tune my rig the first time, but other than that I am just trying to learn to do the work myself. Eventually I will need the help of a pro, hopefully by then I will be competent enough to evaluate the quality of their work.

If I had been in your position right now, I would have trusted the mechanic as well. Maybe after owning the boat 3-4 years and understanding how everything works it would be different, but when you are just starting out you gotta trust somebody and hope for the best.



MedSailor said:


> For those of us with old boats and lots of wiring of various ages and quality, consider installing a "blazecut" fire suppression system in the areas where all the wiring and fuses are densely packed.
> 
> It's a clean agent fire chemical (halon replacement) that is put into a pex tube.
> 
> Zip tie the tube to any area you are worried about and if a fire or smoldering wire starts it will melt a hole in the pressurized pex tine, creating an instant valve to deploy the suppression agent directly on the fire.
> 
> Its cheap, compared to any auto suppression sustem, easy to install and maintain.
> 
> No affiliation on my part, but I own one and am clearly impressed.
> 
> BlazeCut Fire Suppression System TV200FA, 6' ? JOGR
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk


Med,
I am really interested in this. It seems like a great fit for behind an electrical panel, but will it work in the engine compartment? Our surveyor said the automatic Halon systems can just get "sucked out" through the running diesel. I assume if there was enough Halon it would kill the engine, but he recommended a fire port and portable Halon extinguisher.

The BlazeCut seems a lot simpler solution if it will work there.


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## RTB

smackdaddy said:


> The new engine and drive (that I paid for out-of-pocket) is in and is running beautifully. We just finished all that up last Tuesday. We have a few minor things to wrap up this weekend, then we should be good to go. I'll re-start our episodes from there, then circle back on the engine saga details if/when it's appropriate.


Hey Steve....are you going to hang around Texas and make sure the boat is reliable for awhile? You do have time to get her moved to Florida if that is still your plan. Just curious on my part. Actually, you have been VERY quiet on the boards as of late. You ok man?

Ralph


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## smackdaddy

RTB said:


> Hey Steve....are you going to hang around Texas and make sure the boat is reliable for awhile? You do have time to get her moved to Florida if that is still your plan. Just curious on my part. Actually, you have been VERY quiet on the boards as of late. You ok man?
> 
> Ralph


I'm still around - just focusing on getting everything ready. We plan to head out next week. We'll do a shakedown beforehand, then hit it.


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## RTB

smackdaddy said:


> I'm still around - just focusing on getting everything ready. We plan to head out next week. We'll do a shakedown beforehand, then hit it.


Very COOL! Smooth sailing to you guys!!! Hopefully you got all the bad luck out of the way early. I have your smack talk blog bookmarked already.

Ralph


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## MedSailor

RobDahlgren said:


> Smack,
> Glad to hear you and the boys are back in business. I've been following this whole saga with great interest. We recently purchased one of Dawn Treader's little sisters, a 1990 Hunter 35.5. It's great boat and getting better as I work through my list of projects. Stories like yours have kept me away from the using pros for any of the work so far. I may hire Brion Toss to tune my rig the first time, but other than that I am just trying to learn to do the work myself. Eventually I will need the help of a pro, hopefully by then I will be competent enough to evaluate the quality of their work.
> 
> If I had been in your position right now, I would have trusted the mechanic as well. Maybe after owning the boat 3-4 years and understanding how everything works it would be different, but when you are just starting out you gotta trust somebody and hope for the best.
> 
> Med,
> I am really interested in this. It seems like a great fit for behind an electrical panel, but will it work in the engine compartment? Our surveyor said the automatic Halon systems can just get "sucked out" through the running diesel. I assume if there was enough Halon it would kill the engine, but he recommended a fire port and portable Halon extinguisher.
> 
> The BlazeCut seems a lot simpler solution if it will work there.


Halon and it's alternatives can get sucked out through a running diesel. It is necessary to shut down the motor if it's running. Many of the engine room systems have a way to attach to the shutdown solenoid (if fitted) which automatically shuts down the engine if they're deployed. In addition even the largest blazecut is too small for anything but the smallest of engine spaces.

They're good for hard to reach places and I like the idea of putting them in along wiring runs and behind electrical panels.

MedSailor


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## RTB

Hey smack, I guess your engine problems are behind you? What other problems have do you have? You mentioned that you had a lot of little problems on the BFS thread. 

Ralph


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## smackdaddy

Ralph,

Just lots of little niggling things. For example:

1. Fridge started losing power about 20 miles out of St. Pete. It was a bad ground connection. I just fixed that and we're fine.

2. As I mentioned before, we took a few big waves over the bow. One of them was big enough to knock our nav/bow light off its mount. I had to go forward - at night - in big seas - and fix that one. I've never liked the way the light was mounted on this boat, so I'll need to address that before next season.

3. Our freshwater stopped flowing. Turns out it was calcium(?) sediment in the tank. I'm fixing that now and will improve our setup prior to heading out next season.

4. Our bilge pump wasn't shutting off automatically. We never take much water, but it was starting to have trouble. I replaced it yesterday.

5. My tri-data instrument at the nav-station is failing. I'll have to send that in to Raymarine to replace for next season.

6. Our wind instrument display started getting weird. Showing the wrong direction and speed. It seems to have fixed itself.

7. I have a very, very slow fuel seep at the bleed nut below the injectors. I need to get that fixed.

8. The oil pressure switch for the OP buzzer/light failed. I replaced that yesterday and it's back to normal.

All this kind of stuff I can deal with. It's those unexpected $2K autopilot drives that are a boot to the nuts.


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## smackdaddy

BTW - our solar set up has been awesome. It's handled our full 24 hr. power needs with no need to run the engine at night. I'm impressed.


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## RobGallagher

7. It's those copper washers. I keep a supply of them and replace them almost every time I bleed or remove a banjo fitting thingamabob on my Yanmar. Sadly, I don't think they are cheaper by the dozen.


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## Capt Len

Ina pinch, (of pocket?) the washers can be annealed . Hang in the propane flame. First it goes black, then red copper all over,stop don't melt. Carefully clean any scale before reusing


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## Barquito

Capt - I am not enough of a metallurgist (or any other 'urgist, for that matter) to know what annealing does. Is that to harden the otherwise soft washer?


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## smackdaddy

RobGallagher said:


> 7. It's those copper washers. I keep a supply of them and replace them almost every time I bleed or remove a banjo fitting thingamabob on my Yanmar. Sadly, I don't think they are cheaper by the dozen.


Cool. Thanks Rob. I was wondering what was up.

I'll grab a few.


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## MedSailor

smackdaddy said:


> Cool. Thanks Rob. I was wondering what was up.
> 
> I'll grab a few.


Those copper "crush washers" are actually one time use items. If you install something, and then find you have to re-do it an hour later, you still need a fresh washer.

MedSailor (former yanmar owner)


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## Capt Len

Barque 'Washer starts out soft,Work hardens . Like new wire, bending breaks up big soft 'Crystals' of metal ,more smaller 'cells' of soft left,more boundaries to fracture. gets hard,leaks or fails. Bring copper to annealing temp and atoms regroup and form large crystalline structure (soft,malleable) Ferrous metals workharden and fracture too .Bring to red hot and cooling slow anneals. Cooling quick traps the carbon and other additives in the matrix and make brittle ,hard .reheating a bit and quenching allows control of how much (Think knife, spring , file ) Same with aluminium .Extruded is usually a copper alloy Heating to where the carbon soot from the smoky torch burns off allows the copper atoms to redesolve into the Al. Take care as it melts with only a bit more heat Got maybe few hours of malleability before the copper re forms little alloy crystals and softness is gone (think aircraft rivets ,,annealed ,kept refrigerated until used.) No numbers offered here, just a mental exercise what;s what at an atomic level.


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## overbored

MedSailor said:


> Those copper "crush washers" are actually one time use items. If you install something, and then find you have to re-do it an hour later, you still need a fresh washer.
> 
> MedSailor (former yanmar owner)


This is true if they are the rolled sheet crush washers. that are like an ring made of tubing. they should be only used once. the soild copper sealing ring can be reused if they are annealed
http://www.eaavideo.org/video.aspx?v=57437956001


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## smackdaddy

I've never stored a boat on the hard. But that will be the case for _Dawn Treader_ for the next 10 months. I'd sure appreciate some tips on what to do to prep the boat for being away from it for so long.

I will fill the fuel tank completely and put in some stabilizer - and close off the supply valves at the tank. I'll completely empty the water tank, holding tanks, etc. And we'll strip the sails and other canvas. What else?

What do I do about the electrical system? We have solar, so do I just leave it all "running" as usual to keep the batteries charged? Should I leave a couple of lights on inside to provide some draw?

Thanks for the tips.


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## RobGallagher

smackdaddy said:


> I've never stored a boat on the hard. But that will be the case for _Dawn Treader_ for the next 10 months. I'd sure appreciate some tips on what to do to prep the boat for being away from it for so long.
> 
> I will fill the fuel tank completely and put in some stabilizer - and close off the supply valves at the tank. I'll completely empty the water tank, holding tanks, etc. And we'll strip the sails and other canvas. What else?
> 
> What do I do about the electrical system? We have solar, so do I just leave it all "running" as usual to keep the batteries charged? Should I leave a couple of lights on inside to provide some draw?
> 
> Thanks for the tips.


Will you need to winterize? If you can, it might be a good time to scrub the water tanks and completely dry them. Winterizing might be a good way to keep mold and scum from growing in the lines.

The holding tank... pump out and fill with fresh water, pump out and fill with fresh water, again and again until all the sediment is gone...or else you are making cement on the bottom. Maybe a gallon or two of antifreeze is the way to go even if it won't freeze, just to keep things liquid.

I would take out the batteries and store on a trickle charge, remove the solar panels and store. 10 months is a long time to sit in the sun, wind and rain.

Leaving electrical stuff running for 10 months unattended does not seem like such a good idea, but I'm not the expert....beatlejuice, beatljuice, mainesail.


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## smackdaddy

No winterizing. The boat will be near Ft. Myers.


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## JacksonDee

Cool thread, thanks.


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## overbored

you may not need to winterize but need to consider what happens when it is stored in a wet warm climate. there are some books on the subject. i have read a few many years ago. We don't do either with our boat we sail year round. In Florida things will grow in and on everything


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## bob77903

Steve,

On my trip to Rio Dulce, a lot of people that stored their boats in water or on the hard would use this stuff for mold prevention. Most swore by it, and one I saw after 7 months of being closed up tight, was spotless on the inside, no mold.

Bob

SunPac kills mold and mildew spores


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## MedSailor

RobGallagher said:


> ....beatlejuice, beatljuice, mainesail.


That's really funny!


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## smackdaddy

Thanks Bob. I've got 3 big tubs of DampRid, but will add this as well. And I'll be coming back to check on the boat a couple times during that storage period.

As for the batteries mentioned above - I'm not sure why I should disconnect everything and put all the batteries on a trickle charger. Isn't that what the Morningstar solar controller does (trickles if it detects full charge)?


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## overbored

the charger does not care if anyone checks on it while you are away. you set up the charger and use them for years and all you do is look to see how it is working. every time you check it is doing just fine. the charger does not need you to be there to work properly.


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## ccriders

Run messengers for the halyards and store the halyards below, otherwise they will be filthy. I would ask for more that the minimum stands and make sure there are no hull deflections. Isn't there a cylinder treatment you use on diesels? How are you going to tent it? If any chance water can intrude sure would be nice to have an operating bilge pump. Pull out the anchor chain and clean it thoroughly, dry it, treat any rust spots and then stow it in the locker. Take the expensive electronics home.
Neglect kills more boats that anything else.
Ten months, that's a long time.


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## robert sailor

smackdaddy said:


> Thanks Bob. I've got 3 big tubs of DampRid, but will add this as well. And I'll be coming back to check on the boat a couple times during that storage period.
> 
> As for the batteries mentioned above - I'm not sure why I should disconnect everything and put all the batteries on a trickle charger. Isn't that what the Morningstar solar controller does (trickles if it detects full charge)?


The Sunpacs only last 3 months but are very effective within this timeline.
Begin by cleaning the interior with vinegar, it removes dirt and kills mold spores, gives everything a very good start. Batteries should be fine as you have a good controller but if they are lead acid make sure the water is topped up before you leave, not a bad idea to equalize them just before you go. Go out and buy a 110V dehumidifier that can remove around 30 pints a day and set it around 50%, try to get one that takes a hose and set it on the galley counter with a hose to the galley sink. Keep the boat sealed up so the dehumidifier doesnt have to work too hard as it adds heat below. Remove all the food, open up all the cabinets, drawers etc. and tip up all the cushions. Clean out the fridge, leave the door open and shut it down. Not a bad idea to put reflector foil on the ports and windows to stop the sun from heating the boat up and stops the UV from hurting the interior.
All the normal stuff outside that has been covered. Pay someone you trust a few bucks to check the boat now and then to confirm the humidifier is working. Just have to do a drive by as you should see liquid coming out the thru hull galley drain.


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## robert sailor

You might want to let a bug bomb off when you leave the boat, just in case.


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## smackdaddy

Okay - I've just done 1K miles in our boat. I'll do a write-up of what has gone right and wrong during the trip. Stay tuned.


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## RTB

Hey, if you guys are back in Texas, have a Whataburger for me please. Georgia does have some pretty bada$$ BBQ joints surprisingly, some good pizza places too, but I always miss my Waterburger when we're away from the Gulf Coast. 

Ralph


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## smackdaddy

Will do Ralph!


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## smackdaddy

Here you go Ralph...










I got your back brother.


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## RTB

You Da Man! Thanks.

Ralph


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## smackdaddy

I'm waiting on word back from the yard as to exterior/interior damage _Dawn Treader_ might have sustained. With Cat 2+ winds I'm pretty sure water will have found its way inside. Just don't know the extent yet.

I'd also asked the yard to remove my solar panels from the bimini frame when they strapped the boat down before the storm, but I don't know if they got around to it. If not, I'm assuming the frame and panels are gone.

So, I am HUGELY relieved that she faced down ~95 knot sustained gusts. But I'm also assuming that there will be some work to be done. And that's okay. At least she's there for us to work on.

If you thought I was an annoying Hunter advocate before - you have no idea. 95 knot winds? Yep, Hunters can handle that.


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## aeventyr60

*BFS* for sure!


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## smackdaddy

As you might have seen on my world-famous social channels - I'm back on the boat after Irma. I'm gonna have some questions. She's in good shape, but seriously bizarre stuff going on. 

So stay tuned.


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## smackdaddy

Question 1...look at this...










I replace the fuel lines leading to the engine because there was a chafe-nick in the previous supply line. BUT I'm still getting diesel under the engine. What the hell?

I've looked at both filters, the injectors, the lines, the pump, etc. No evident leakage, but there it is in the bilge!?!?!

Any ideas?


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## ScottUK

Place paper towels below the engine to find where the drip(?) is coming from. Looking for sweat such as on the injector pump etc might also be an indicator. Good luck.


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## smackdaddy

Thanks Scott. I'll do that. For others I forgot to mention the engine is not being used as we are stored on the hard. The fuel supply _should_ be turned off (the valve was turned), so I'll check that again. But that's obviously not the root problem. We're getting leakage from somewhere.


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## RegisteredUser

You can wrap some gauze around the fittings/connecting points.
Bread twist ties work well.

Dry them all first...


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## smackdaddy

Done. Thanks Reg. We'll see what the paper towels tell us.

Next mystery...my Xantrex LinkPro is reading 1 volt higher than my solar controller (see attached pics)...

Using a multimeter, the reading at the batteries matches the solar controller - not the LinkPro. So what could be causing the LinkPro to read an extra volt? This is new, it was not doing this before. The LinkPro was always a TINY bit higher than the controller - but 1 full volt? 

I've completely disconnected the LinkPro from the bank for a hard reset and I've also done a reset using the buttons. Still the same issue.

Any ideas?


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## RobGallagher

Did you replace the copper crush washers last time you had any fittings apart? They will weep and it can be hard to spot. Yanmar gray seems to be the perfect backdrop for diesel fuel.


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## CVAT

Welcome to the fun fun world of calibration of electronics, Smack.

Several things could cause this including the Temperature, is it doing this when it is only hot out? How long have the systems been on have they had a chance to stabilize? Is one system hotter than the other? Is there adequate airflow to cool both devices?

These are just a few of the questions your question brings. Also what is the quality of your meter, is it a cheap Autozone meter which may or may not be accurate or is it a Fluke, or other reputable higher quality brand. This can be an issue, especially if the Xantrex is actually the correct reading and your meter is only as accurate as your controller. I would recommend taking the measurements early in the day, even before sunrise if possible, or when both the Xantrex and controller are at or near the same ambient temperature. Also check the quality of your meter leads these often overlooked items can result in inaccuracies, are they in good condition free of kinks and abrasions, are both ends in good repair? OK as you can probably see I am hinting at is to check the accuracy of your meter versus a KNOWN good reference whether that is a direct measurement of known good dc voltage source or a comparison of a known good meters readings compared to your meter. Until then you are still left with the following question is it the Xantrex or the Controller and DMM that is accurate, or are they both wrong. 

As to what could cause this sudden change the readings, look toward the environmental, is the Xantrex hotter or colder than the Controller both physical and ambient temperatures, does the sun shine on one and not the other throughout the day? How is the airflow around each device and has that changed in anyway?


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## mitiempo

smackdaddy said:


> Done. Thanks Reg. We'll see what the paper towels tell us.
> 
> Next mystery...my Xantrex LinkPro is reading 1 volt higher than my solar controller (see attached pics)...
> 
> Using a multimeter, the reading at the batteries matches the solar controller - not the LinkPro. So what could be causing the LinkPro to read an extra volt? This is new, it was not doing this before. The LinkPro was always a TINY bit higher than the controller - but 1 full volt?
> 
> I've completely disconnected the LinkPro from the bank for a hard reset and I've also done a reset using the buttons. Still the same issue.
> 
> Any ideas?


Measure both the Linkpro and the solar controller's voltage at exactly where they are connected - that will tell you which is incorrect. I would reset the Linkpro and see what it reads.


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## colemj

Check the small wires and connections on the shunt - very easy to get corrosion or a loose connection with these. Also check the temperature sensor if you have one.

Mark


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## gonecrusin

RobGallagher said:


> Did you replace the copper crush washers last time you had any fittings apart? They will weep and it can be hard to spot. Yanmar gray seems to be the perfect backdrop for diesel fuel.


What Rob said, Yanmar has those goofy crush washers that seem to last one tightening.


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## RegisteredUser

gonecrusin said:


> What Rob said, Yanmar has those goofy crush washers that seem to last one tightening.


You can anneal and reuse them...if you forgot to buy new.


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## smackdaddy

On the fuel leak - it's not the washer. I've already learned that lesson - and I just checked it to be sure. Have paper towels down so hopefully I'll spot the culprit.

On the LinkPro issue, I'm still stumped. Here's where we are...

1. Multimeter is good. It's digital, clean contacts, and in line with the readings on the Morningstar 30 controller.
2. I've taken readings at the controller where the line goes out to the batteries. Matches readout on controller.
3. I've taken readings at each of the batteries. The 4 house bank batteries matches what is showing on the controller. The starter battery (which is wired to the LinkPro as the Aux) was showing about .75V higher than the other batteries. So I thought that might be the culprit.
4. I pulled the leads off the starter battery and reset the LinkPro to factory settings. Still 1V higher.
5. All the contacts at the batteries and the shunt look good...





































When the sun goes down I'll try another "hard reset" by pulling all the positive leads off the batteries (leaving the starter battery out of the loop), wait a few, then hook it all back up (except for the starter battery). If that doesn't fix it - I'm seriously stumped.

Any ideas appreciated.


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## RegisteredUser

See if the diesel came out of the vent.
You had some extreme pressure differentials in FT Myers.
Maybe you had a lipping-full tank...?

A paper towel below will tell you where the drip...drops, but not where its source originates. 

Sorry, no help on the elec.
Keep posting.


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## smackdaddy

RegisteredUser said:


> See if the diesel came out of the vent.
> You had some extreme pressure differentials in FT Myers.
> Maybe you had a lipping-full tank...?
> 
> A paper towel below will tell you where the drip...drops, but not where its source originates.
> 
> Sorry, no help on the elec.
> Keep posting.


I thought about the vent and even a leaking tank. I've had a leak from the tank in the past (a screw came out of the level sending unit) - but that drains into the main bilge. This is in the engine bilge so there's no way for the diesel to get here except for lines and engine.

I'm starting to suspect I have a very tiny leak from one of the filter fittings. We'll see.


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## RegisteredUser

smackdaddy said:


> I thought about the vent and even a leaking tank. I've had a leak from the tank in the past (a screw came out of the level sending unit) - but that drains into the main bilge. This is in the engine bilge so there's no way for the diesel to get here except for lines and engine.
> 
> I'm starting to suspect I have a very tiny leak from one of the filter fittings. We'll see.


It's all gonna go to the bilge...or off the boat.
I was talking about the fuel in a very full tank being 'sucked' out of the vent.

If you suspect a fitting/s then trace it methodically...being sure.
Kill the prob or potential prob before you splash again.


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## RobGallagher

smackdaddy said:


> I thought about the vent and even a leaking tank. I've had a leak from the tank in the past (a screw came out of the level sending unit) - but that drains into the main bilge. This is in the engine bilge so there's no way for the diesel to get here except for lines and engine.
> 
> I'm starting to suspect I have a very tiny leak from one of the filter fittings. We'll see.


That was to be my next suggestions. The Yanmar Fuel filter bowl with that skinny O ring can also weep. I believe it is after the fuel pump and also has a bleed screw with possibly a nylon washer...another weeper.


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## smackdaddy

AAAAAAARRRRRRGGGGHHHHH! Okay, complete uncabling and dead stop on the LinkPro. The Morningstar did it's equalize thing just before sunset, then stopped pushing charge at dark. Then I disconnected everything. No power anywhere....no connection to the the LinkPro.

I waited about 30 minutes to be sure then reconnected everything (except for the starter battery I was wondering about) - same issue. 1 volt over the battery and controller readouts. Then I added the starter battery. No change.

I know there is a voltage prescaler setting with the LinkPro - but I think you have to have extra kit to have that work - and since this is a new issue, I don't think that's the fix.

Man this is weird.


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## gptyk

Yaknow, maybe the linkpro just went partially TU by losing calibration. It may just be broken.

(I know that's not very helpful, pointing out the obvious and all.... )


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## smackdaddy

I'm starting to think it may be something like that. I sure can't find any reason for its behavior.


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