# Don't have to be rich to sail



## ABH3 Boyer (Sep 27, 2012)

I consider myself middle class. That means my net household income is less than 100k for a family of 4. I feel I can afford to sail without straining my family's finances. My boat has cost me a whole bunch of labor, around $5000 cash, and somewhere in the $1600 range per year for docking and maintenance. A small price to pay for all the fun that comes with owning a sailboat yet my friends cant understand how I can afford such a hobby. The common stereotype is that people who sail are rich. If you are in the same situation as I am please feel free to share your story with me. It would be nice to have someone other than myself to compare to when explaining to my friends that they too can afford to sail if they really want to.


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

I'm not rich either. My highest income I ever made was $153,000 a year and I'm 55 and have a 42 foot boat that's paid for. It takes a while to learn, but it's money management, not money production, that determines what you can do.

I was making $21,000 a year when I bought my first cruising capable boat, a Cape Dory 25D, in 1985 (nothing but Hobie Cats before that). I was driving a 1967 Bel Air, my grandmother gave me, while my friends, who couldn't understand how I bought that boat, were all driving brand new cars. It's priorities, too.

The only thing keeping me from taking off for a couple of years on that boat in 1988 was a wife that said "no". She was afraid it would derail both of our careers to take a sabbatical at that time. We're divorced now. 

Read the obituaries and see how many people younger than you are in there every week. Then wonder what they thought they were going to do next year.


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## FirstCandC (Mar 26, 2013)

I do not consider myself financially wealthy (by U.S. standards). I have also chosen the frugal route when it comes to financing my sailing dream. But it comes at a serious cost when it comes to PATIENCE. There are so many little projects, and I am trying to keep the maintenance costs under $200 per month. In a perfect world I could just dry dock it and start making calls to the canvas people, mechanics, etc. But it is all worth it on a nice breezy day.


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## BarryL (Aug 21, 2003)

ABH3 Boyer said:


> The common stereotype is that people who sail are rich. If you are in the same situation as I am please feel free to share your story with me. It would be nice to have someone other than myself to compare to when explaining to my friends that they too can afford to sail if they really want to.


I don't believe that a lack of money is keeping people from sailing. As you note, if you want to sail, you should be able to do it cheaply.

I started sailing in 2003 with a 1982 Catalina 22. I paid around $3000 for the boat and it was in good condition (not great, but certainly good enough for day sails). The boat was on a trailer and came with a decent outboard engine. I could not get a mooring that year so we trailer sailed the boat. I paid the town $10 for a ramp permit so I could launch the boat, park the car and trailer, etc. I would have to check my records but I think I sailed the boat 5-10 times that year (got the boat in early August).

The next year I paid $100 for a mooring permit, got a free dingy that I fixed for $50, bought a mooring for $300, and paid a company $100 to drop the mooring and $100 to pull the mooring in the fall. So my total costs for a year were under $1000. We sailed a lot that year (upgraded to a Newport 28 in July, but that's another story)

But sailing is not for everyone. It takes a serious time commitment and the right personality and I think most people are just not into it. If you have a family with kids there are so many competing activities that most people are not going to make the commitment to go sailing. Between work, kids sports, house, lawn, and vehicle maintenance, family obligations, TV/computer/video games, etc. there just isn't that much leisure time available. Then the weather and seasons come into play too. I'm in the north east, and the sailing season is really May - October. And in those months, how many free weekend days will there be when the weather cooperates? How many people are willing to learn a complicated activity with a unique language, that is sort of anachronistic (you mean we can't go directly from here to there if the wind isn't blowing right?) and perhaps dangerous?

Then, when you finally are able to get out on the water, and the weather is nice, and the wind is nice, and the boat works well, MOST people are still going to be like: "So this is it? We're on a boat and going like 5 miles and hour, and we can't get anywhere and why can't you turn the motor on so we can go faster, and like I'm hungry and why didn't you bring anything good to eat and like I'm so bored, and my iphone is like dying, and OMG this is so boring, and I have to meet my friends in 2 hours and when are we turning around and why is this taking sooo long."

Wow, writing all this down, I wonder why ANYONE with a young family sails. I guess that's why so few do!

Personally, I LOVE sailing and I AM a little crazy, so it works for me. But certainly not for everyone.

PS: For SOME people (those who GET it) when you finally are able to get out on the water, and the weather is nice, and the wind is nice, and the boat works well, it will be like "This is amazing! It's so peaceful and quiet, and the boat moves through the water so nicely, and this is all free? And we can go anywhere we want and food on the water tastes so much better and the sun feels good on my skin and we can stay out here as long as we like and how does the boat move so well when I can barely feel the wind and the water is warm and THIS IS JUST GREAT!"

Barry


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## joethecobbler (Apr 10, 2007)

under sail aboard a 32' CC is still an incredible sensation. knowing every thing you require to live is aboard is empowering and exhilarating. then the knowledge that you can command it to anywhere in the world.
better than flying, driving, cycling or anything else, at least to me it is. hope to be able sail the rest of my life.


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## Rhapsody-NS27 (Apr 8, 2012)

I work in the military so I'm definitely not wealthy but I am smart with my finances. I have a house that's near the base, I have a car that's paid for, a truck I bought a couple years ago so I could tow my boat that I also got shortly after the truck. I wanted to get a boat, paid for, and be able to do what I can with it when I can. Deployments have slowed down and work related trips have too. The first 15 months of having my boat, it was on its trailer in a storage lot while I put some work into it. Got it into the water this past Jun/Jul and been doing some other projects along the way. I sailed it once so far and had a wonderful time. I thought of starting off with a smaller boat since I am still relatively new to sailing but at the same time, I'm very happy with the boat I did get because it could be the only boat I ever have. There's other military people in my neighborhood that have fishing boats or pontoon boats sitting in their drive way.

You don't need a fancy or expensive boat, just something that gets you out on the water and enjoy your time to kick back and relax from the work week and all is good.


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## Markwesti (Jan 1, 2013)

I would say that people who say stuff like, you must be rich to have a boat . Those people are not boat people, but even worse they are jealous . Some yrs. ago I bought a Porsche, it was a older 911 Targa . It was restored and looked nice but still I only paid 10k for it . You should of heard the howls from people . They went like, what are you trying to prove with a car like that! And oh you must be rich , and my favorite, are you having a mid life crisis ?! I know that was a car story but thanks for letting me rant about that . On the boating side I still get pretty much the same thoughtless comments . And lastly I would not try to convince or explain to people that they could afford a boat, I mean just the ones that make rude comments like you must be rich . On the other side of the coin , does anyone get this one ? You are cheap because you own a sail boat and air is free .


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## nolatom (Jun 29, 2005)

I've been fortunate to have sailed pretty steadily without owning a boat in the last few decades, ever since moving south from New England, where I did own one-designs, delivered some boats, and raced in college.

As a member of the "OPBC" since then I've been able to borrow boats once or twice from a friendly owner I'd crewed for, to take a local family cruise when my kid was younger. And done an occasional delivery with a neighbor or friend who'd bought a new boat. Raced some. Been a Race Committee volunteer some. Paid someone's slip rent for a couple of years and got to sail that Ranger 32 (which they didn't sail, so I did) until they sold it. And for the past 14 years or so, have been teaching sailing as a part-time gig at a couple of local facilities here, occasional half-day charter captain. And they've been gracious enough to let me borrow one of the teaching boats on occasion. 

So life is good. It has helped to have had a small-tonnage Captain's license. But mostly it's just be dependable and enjoy teaching new (or not so new) sailors, which I do enjoy.

I lack the autonomy and ability to fit out a boat and go wherever whenever, which you who own those great boats have, my hat's off to you for making it work. But this has worked for me so far, and I guess I could always charter a boat somewhere, some day.

Or buy one?? Never say never.... ;-)


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## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

Yep the comments all can be summed up thus a family on a power boat is going somewhere special a sailing family is already there and its not money that gives you that


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## socal c25 (Nov 1, 2013)

I live in So Cal where just about everything costs a brick of gold and average income is half a brick of silver but people make it. The marina I am in I believe to be the least expensive in my area (no moorings) at $225.00 for a 25 ft. boat (year round) isn't bad for the amount of enjoyment you can have, we have several islands to sail to that are a full days sail and many harbors that are also a days sail away. I like to say that we have a chance to get out of town for the cost of food and fuel (boat and cooking) that's a few dollars for the weekend unless you want a slip or mooring, that's a few more dollars. I have friends that "get out of town" and spend several hundred dollars for a weekend and then thats it for a month or two. Some think I have money to throw away on a boat (I don't) I am frugal with what I spend on it for maintenance and I do all the work myself (except sails and rigging). My point is I have the ability to go out every weekend or just out for a day with little cost 225/8=28.125 that's slip rent divided by 8 weekend days a month, even if we only stay at the marina we are still "out of town".


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## rbyham (Dec 25, 2012)

We have been a two income couple now down to just my income... At about 75k a year to be honest we are finding it difficult to afford some aspects of the cost of sailing. The major cost challenge as we see it after year one though is not the boat. The boat and even most fixes are quite manageable as I can do most work myself. The major expense that makes the lifestyle difficult is marina experience. Even now I am trying to figure out how to reduce or remove that $2800/Y from the picture. Can't trailer something almost 30'. At our income level slips fees or $150/m would be much ore realistic than the 275/m we are paying now... Plus $45/m for trailer storage. So while I agree that many more could have a Sailboat, marina fees are the single most limiting factor...


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## DonScribner (Jan 9, 2011)

(I was just reading my stuff and it sounds like I'm ripped. I'm not at all, just voicing my perception on the subject so if I offend, go easy on me)

Where I stand, if you're approaching $100k or passed it, you are into wealthy, not so you have diamonds dripping, but so you can afford half a mortgage (for an average family) per month for recreation. I'm estimating all told, $700 per month in insurance, mooring/slip fees, maintenance, diesel, supplies and sailing expenses (rented moorings, food). As a trailer sailor, my expenses are way down. $400/year insurance, another $300 in gas. Hauling is done every weekend. Maintenance is done by me in the driveway (much to the chagrin of neighbors). For most people, sailing (cruising) is still an elitist past time with lots of money required. And those who can't afford a blue water capable boat are looked down upon as less than sailors. I have found a particular bias against people who a) aren't willing to drop "just $700" for right chartplotter b) can't afford to take ASA101, ASA103, ASA105, ASA106 et al. c) didn't crew for three years on TransPac training ships d) Trailer their boats. It is still a money thing. But who loves sailing more, the guy with a fully stocked galley complete with fridge and gimballed oven or the guy that has to spend an hour of hard work just to float, then sit in the weather at all times and eat cold food or use a camp stove? In my eyes, the person who must endure the most inconvenience but still endeavors to sail wins every time.

Now, many folks reading do not feel this way about trailer sailors. Thanks for being that way. But others plainly do. If you do, check your income and boat size. 

My wife and I sail the coast of Maine, about 1000 nm per year. Most trips are overnights, many are multiple days and hundreds of miles, dodging rocks and ledges, lobster buoys, ferries, and . . . larger sailboats who are the give-way vessels but either don't know the rules or . . . look down on smaller boats. I'd bet I can count into the teens on that one.


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## Tim R. (Mar 23, 2003)

Just the opposite. I am rich because I sail. But not the financial way!


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

Money means something, making a good living means having the ability to do what maybe others can't do or can't afford to do... but it comes at a price for some...

I own my own engineering company (3 man business) and with it comes monetary rewards and I make a better living than most even some doctors/lawyers... but it comes with a negative price of having to travel away from home for extended periods of time... 9 months in China, 9 months in Seattle, so far 6 months here in Montreal and no end in sight... this comes at a price of being away from my family (I do get to see them regularly for a week or two), home, garden, cars (collector cars), sailboat, etc... the only points worth this style of work is the fact I am saving a ton of money for the eventual sail-off with my wife... my wife is a special education teacher and has 13 more years to full retirement, I have less than 8 years more to go... we are mostly debt free and only business taxes to contend with... I want a larger sailboat when it's time to go and probably will purchase a 5 year old or less sailboat (or yacht ) and outfit it for our extended cruising but it will not be over 35 feet, this to keep costs down... we figure an average of $1500-2500 a month just cruising expenses alone (no medical or major boat expenditures).

I miss being on the sailboat I have now and have someone watching and caring for it while I'm gone and wish I could sail away now but reality is it's better to make the money now and have the funds to support the sailing than waiting and never being able to sail where we want as long as our health holds out. 8 years is not long but anything can happen in life... no sure bets.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

It is as expewnsive as you want to make it, and as attainable as you want it to be. if you really, truly, absolutely, need to sail, you will find a way, even if you are so broke that you need a cosigner even when you pay cash.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

everyone with a boat is rich, just because you know people with more money doesn't really change it


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## HEXE (Jan 30, 2014)

Group9 said:


> Read the obituaries and see how many people younger than you are in there every week. Then wonder what they thought they were going to do next year.


I've seen many a better man than me wither to nothing in months. 
living in a small town makes it most evident.

I'm pretty close to the poverty level for this area.. lil under 30k a year take home.
i can keep up with the jone's if i have to. i can file bankruptsy too lol... 
i manage to have everything my friends have. without the anguish. 
it may not be as new or cool. as long as i keep my bad habits in check
i can afford to get what i need. i have to plan for it... i dont have the instant
gratification of deep pockets.

i only pay 220 a month for slip and liveaboard fees and about 200 for utilities
' electric phone/internet and some diesel'. 
I think i could slop dishes for a living part time and make way....
it would be a good thing for me.. that way i could not afford these $10 packs of smokes...


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## Steve in Idaho (Jun 22, 2012)

I'm just a day-sailor, and a trailer-sailor at that. But I have run the numbers (because I have dreams). For the middle-class American, having a sailboat and even cruising it - coastal anyway - is really just a matter of having no consumer debt. What others put out just in car payments can cover mooring fees. Buy an economical used vehicle rather than new, and you save the price of a good old coastal cruiser. Forget golf, trips to Vegas, and sports bars, and maintenance costs are affordable. By world standards, that may still be "wealthy" - but in the context of modern America, it is rather unremarkable. Unless you consider it remarkable that someone would choose to live within their means, so as not to waste money enriching money lenders.

Someday, when my time is my own....

In the meantime - a good old 20' pocket cruiser trailer sailor costs less to acquire and maintain than one new ATV or Snowmobile. This is a CHEAP hobby - but yes, we are _"rich"_.


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## aelkin (Feb 3, 2013)

I'm surprised I haven't seen a response yet like this, so I'll have a go.

You don't have to be rich to sail.

You do have to be rich to sail...(choose any of the following)

fast
comfortably in any weather
if you need to stay in marinas while cruising
across borders
a big boat
with kids


Our first boat was a Tanzer 22, purchased in the water, in a slip, full of fuel, with a bunch of sails. Paid about $4000, and that was thru a broker. Not knowing any better, we had a great time with that boat. Felt it was a pretty cheap hobby.
We decided we needed more room, for the kids. 
bought a bigger boat for $8000. Had to use a bigger slip. Wanted to go faster. Bought better sails. Wanted to be comfortable. Updated the cushions, installed roller furling, electronics, and ran rigging to the cockpit.

We decided we wanted to race more competitively.. (go faster) Bought a bigger boat for more than double the 2nd boat. sails don't perform well, so need to buy new ones. One sail is worth more than the price of the entire first boat. Need to rent the second-largest slip size in the marina. It is no longer a cheap hobby, but it means enough to us that we make the sacrifices we need to to continue doing it - as hard-core as we can afford.

I'm not rich, but we live comfortably. I'm not comfortable telling anyone but other sailors much about the cost of our boat, because of the 'you must be rich' stigma.

You don't have to be rich to sail, but the folks that are out there, sailing around in 22-footers, aren't what the general populus thinks about when they think 'yachtsmen', either....it's all a matter of perspective.


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

"A man is rich in proportion to the number of things which he can afford to let alone."

"My greatest skill has been to want but little."

--- Henry David Thoreau

Sensible Cruising: The Thoreau Approach


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## ericb760 (Apr 11, 2012)

I bought a boat back when I was single and dumb. Never put a dime in to it other than slip fees, which were about $75 a month, IIRC. Sold that boat when I moved to the desert, got married, had two kids, blah, blah, blah. For fifteen years I dreamed of owning another boat. A divorce, and a move back to the coast, and I was ready again. I bought small ($3800), and I keep it cheap ($212 per month). With COL, and child support, I'm by no means wealthy. But, I own a beautiful boat that fits within my budget. Would I like a 30 or 40 footer? Yeah, and I could probably finagle one if I wanted to eat Top Ramen nightly. I guess my point is that sailboat ownership on a smaller budget is perfectly feasible, if you keep your "wants" and "needs" separate.


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## seafrontiersman (Mar 2, 2009)

I bought a Watkins 23XL pocket cruiser for $800 and dropped another $1800 or so during the next year restoring her and in the end she was safe, dry, comfortable, and beautiful. I did all the work myself and shopped at marine second hand stores and Tractor Supply for parts. The most expensive single item was a $600 mainsail. 

It was a WONDERFUL experience and certainly not out of the reach of a working man..

Good luck!


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## Bruce_L (Jun 19, 2012)

All I know is that I am at my marina often enough to notice I am the only guy on my pier that sails most of the time. I sail almost every weekend unless its some really terrible weather. I sailed 17 miles last weekend. Yeah it was sorta cold but the wind was perfect that day. I had the entire gulf to myself. I rarely see anyone else go out. Not even the big 50 foot powerboats. I think the big boat owner is either working all the time to pay his bills or its too much work to take the boat out and clean up afterwards so they never go out. I really cant figure it out. My boat is a whopping 19', smallest in the marina. This keeps me in the cheap monthly slip price range. I am far from rich but I know what it takes to have a good time on the water. So if you are willing to do a lot of the work yourself, get a used boat and keep it docked and have some fun. I dont think I would sail as much if I had to trailer my boat and rig it every time though. Just too much work and wasted sailing time for that day. Paying a monthly slip fee is well worth it to me.


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## rbyham (Dec 25, 2012)

I forget where I saw it but when factoring in global income levels, any American making more than 30k is a member of the 1 percent club. Strange eh? I also saw a quote that said, considered globally, If you make more than 50k you are much closer to Bill Gates' salary than you are to the average wage of those in other countries... Not sure that is true but it was on the Internet  and I get the point...


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

Rich isn't just money, but time to enjoy it. I day sailed my Catalina 22 probably 50 times last year. Did a few overnights with the boys on Lake George. Cost of the boat _+dockage on the Hudson River is -- really insignificant to me and my home owners insurance covers boat liability insurance for free. So, I guess I am one of the lucky ones. 

However - buying a bigger heavier boat with a diesel inboard and actually going somewhere is a whole different ball game, fraught with money and logistics issues. That is what I would love to do but -- more money would help. 


Unfortunately we have 2 kids in college now. I could buy a beautiful yacht for what I have forked out to kids/colleges in the past 4 years. I have plenty of money for the first scenario, and not enough for the second.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

Sal Paradise said:


> Unfortunately we have 2 kids in college now. I could buy a beautiful yacht for what I have forked out to kids/colleges in the past 4 years. I have plenty of money for the first scenario, and not enough for the second.


Same here... put my daughter through 5 years of college... married now and glad she is off my wallet sort of speak... 

My son graduates this Spring and has already received the letter indicating he graduates and this May we attend his graduation from college... though he now goes to graduate school for his higher education which we will have to fund... scholarships have helped him much for the finances but when we tally the costs to send both of them to college we could have bought a brand new Benetau sailboat... but the benefit is seeing them graduate and know you have done the job as a parent to see them off to their own careers and lives... now comes the fun part of funding our cruising lives....


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## rugosa (Aug 30, 2011)

Bruce_L said:


> . . . only guy on my pier that sails most of the time. . . I rarely see anyone else go out. . .


You're in the Gulf, we are on Great Lakes, same experience here, everywhere we travel most are in the slip or on the mooring, way too few under sail.

Our boat is not our boat, it's owned by someone else that can't deal with doing routine maintenance and seasonal work due to age, health and available time. BUT he is comfortable paying for club fees, insurance, necessary parts, etc., and we are thrilled to take care of the boat, improve it, have free use to sail as many Sundays as possible, even take friends out. He's a former Olympic racer from 1952, and when we are on the race course May through October he is 15 years old again and crew are all in a state of bliss. BTW, we fueled up the diesel before liftout for $45, he fills up his power boat for $2200. Guess which boat never leaves to dock.


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## vtsailguy (Aug 4, 2010)

Cruising costs are definately variable depending on the sailing you do. We had a 30' boat and pottered around on lake champlain, very affordable.

We have upgraded to a 41' Tartan and in getting ready for a year cruising, I am starting to keep track of costs, and it's eye-opening.


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## mattt (Aug 26, 2013)

You don't even have to own a boat to sail frequently. I'm in a sailing club in the PNW and my sailing habit costs about the same as monthly moorage for both my wife and I, but I don't have to buy a boat or do maintenance.


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## capttb (Dec 13, 2003)

What is the monthly charge to moor a wife in the PNW ? OH wait, I misunderstood, never mind.


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## vtsailguy (Aug 4, 2010)

capttb said:


> What is the monthly charge to moor a wife in the PNW ? OH wait, I misunderstood, never mind.


lol


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## Oldboyracer (Oct 12, 2013)

I have a slightly different take on it all , you don't have to be rich but you really have to want a boat . I have sailed since I was 18 racing on 16ft skiffs and then on yachts , till the kids came along and responsibilities took over so sailing took a back seat . Went out occasionally on whatever came along that would float , but still wanted my own wife always said no . 20 years later and divorced twice , paying child support I figured now or never . I put down a small deposit on a unit in an area none of my friends really even want to visit but it was cheap , have the same car for 15 years , and bought a 30 ft yacht that needed some work . It took 2 years of hard work but not a lot of money to get her to sailing shape again , my friends are having trips over seas and all round the country ( I live in australia ) they have new cars and very nice houses . I have a yacht and it's mine and the bank has a large share of my unit . In 2 weeks I bring her down the coast and move aboard renting my unit out . I don't know how it will work out I might hate it but who knows . I do know that I am doing what I want and am happy with my lot in life . My friends still don't understand but I really don't expect them to , (you either love boats or don't ) but they help me when they can . My parents are saying get going and go now your 50 ( they left home to go round oz in a caravan 12 years later they got back ) do it while your physically fit . So as far as I'm concerned I'm rich cause I'm chasing my dreams . I read once and I can't remember where or who said it some thing along the lines of " all men dream when asleep but the ones who dream when they are awake are dangerous because they might do something about it "


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake up in the day to find it was vanity, but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men,for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible."

T. E. Lawrence

Good luck, fair winds & following seas!


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## aelkin (Feb 3, 2013)

Manatee - nice job!
Classy.


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

Thank you. It sounded like it would make a good quote for my collection, so I hunted it up.

Thanks go to Oldboyracer for pointing it out.


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## gamayun (Aug 20, 2009)

rbyham said:


> I forget where I saw it but when factoring in global income levels, any American making more than 30k is a member of the 1 percent club. Strange eh? I also saw a quote that said, considered globally, If you make more than 50k you are much closer to Bill Gates' salary than you are to the average wage of those in other countries... Not sure that is true but it was on the Internet  and I get the point...


Yeah, someone gets it. I grew up in a poor, single parent home. We had a home, car, food, clothes and a few extras, but never enough to buy anything more than an inflatable, which I paddled around with all the time. I then had a kid while still young myself. We always kept a "boat jar" where the change went in. It never got above $30 because I'd eventually let my son roll the coins and buy something he liked. I did buy a used wind surfer for $50 once and used it with my son sitting on the front. Thought I might kill him if we didn't find another hobby. Never had enough money to buy a boat until my kid was on his own and I was making decent money in my career. So I think the perspectives here are a bit out of whack. A dinghy can be bought and sailed cheaply, and that presumes the person is close to the water. This is all very hard to come by when you're living hand to mouth, which is how the majority of people live. Median income is about $50,000 in the US, women still make 3/4 of what men do, and 46 million people are living in poverty, which equates to about $12K/year for an individual or $24K for a family for four. IMHO, sailing is still a "rich" sport. It's all in how you define it...


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## vtsailguy (Aug 4, 2010)

gamayun said:


> Median income is about $50,000 in the US


and that is the household median income, The individual median income is half that......


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

Ok, but some form of sailing can be done relatively cheaply. For us, its just the dockage that costs anything, and we have a slip behind a waterfront bar that has no service and cheap docks. I would like to get a bigger boat and cruise.. but for right now my car insurance is far more than my annual sailing budget, a single monthly tuition payment for one kid was more than my annual sailing budget last year. There is a middle ground between a windsurfer and a 38' boat.


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

I'll point out my former step-daughter as an example of why the poor are often poor.

She would constantly complain about never having any money while smoking two packs of cigarettes a day (about $10 a day or $300 a month).

I constantly tried to get her to understand the math of saving $10 a day, and what it could mean for her future life, but it completely fell on deaf ears.

She will never understand why she is poor and will remain convinced until the day she dies, that it is someone else's fault.

And, to the point of the thread. There are always decent sailboats for sale down here for under $3650 ($10 a day x 365) and none of them would cost more than $300 a month in maintenance once you bought them.

I bought my first sailboat, a Hobie 16, for $1600, used, with a trailer and a good set of sails. I bought my second one for $250, in 2005 (it had two holes in one pontoon that I fixed myself for $50). Again, a good set of sails and a trailer came with it. I was driving along and saw it by the side of the road with a 'for sale' sign on it. I couldn't believe it. They thought it was ruined. I bought it thinking it didn't even have sails, when the woman told me I would have to come get the sails out of her attic myself! They looked brand new.

I refuse to believe that there are people who really want to sail who can't come up with that kind of money.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

Sal Paradise said:


> Ok, but some form of sailing can be done relatively *cheaply*.


cheaply should be replaced with "inexpensive" and maybe it would be more truthful


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## kwaltersmi (Aug 14, 2006)

Boating is expensive. Sailing is cheap.


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

kwaltersmi said:


> Boating is expensive. Sailing is cheap.


I have a 22' center console with a 200 HP that burns more in one trip than I use in my 42' sailboat in a year. 

And, people think the 42 footer is the expensive one to own. 

The biggest problem with it is worrying about the diesel in it going bad from age.


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## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

Group9 said:


> I have a 22' center console with a 200 HP that burns more in one trip than I use in my 42' sailboat in a year.
> 
> And, people think the 42 footer is the expensive one to own.
> 
> The biggest problem with it is worrying about the diesel in it going bad from age.


I have run diesel that was 30 years old in one of my trucks a few years ago and the only thing I noticed was a little more smoke from the additives they used to use . Diesel doesn't degrade like gasoline.


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

newhaul said:


> I have run diesel that was 30 years old in one of my trucks a few years ago and the only thing I noticed was a little more smoke from the additives they used to use . Diesel doesn't degrade like gasoline.


Yeah, but it will grow some awful looking stuff in it. 

And, I read an article where someone found a 1970 GTO that had been in storage for 20 years, and he hooked a battery up to it and cranked it on 20 year old gas, but I'm not going to try it.


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## PhilCarlson (Dec 14, 2013)

I moved to FL from MN last summer and two weeks ago purchased my first sailboat. I'm certianly not rich but am disciplined and not without means. I'd say getting into sailing on a "regular person" budget requires patience and homework more than anything.

I watched craigslist for months before I looked at the first boat. I'd decided my startup budget and when one looked good in that range I checked it out, decided to buy but moved too slow. It sold fast. Two lessons there: First I was on the right track, the market decided it was a good boat because it sold before I could return a call. Second, when you find it, buy it. Don't mess around. 

I surfed CL for a few more weeks looking at a few more boats. Some junk, some I just didn't love. Beginners, you HAVE to look at boats, even if you have no plan to buy. Don't waste the seller's time but you will learn more by stepping aboard, feeling the boat and hearing the owner's story than you ever could reading up on it.

I settled on a hidden gem. The advert was poorly written with only one picture, and it was a three hour drive away. Spoke with the owner at length, went to look and closed the deal. One weekend to haul it to the marina and get the electrical system in order, another weekend to put her in the water and scrub the mildew off the deck, clean the cabin and various repairs. Final weekend step the mast, install the electronics fix a few more things then she is ready to sail. 

I'll sail out on a 26' Northstar 600 with a fairly new deisel inboard and brand new electronic gadgets for less than whay I sold my John Deere lawn tractor and Arctic Cat 4 wheeler for back in the great white north. 

Luck is at the intersection of opportunity and preparedness.


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## ltgoshen (Jan 5, 2009)

They are waiting for us to help. They are waiting for us to clean up the Rivers and coastal regains all over the eastern seaboard.
I was out fishing over 4 and half years ago when I noticed all these abandoned boats on the waterways of Beaufort South Carolina. 
I drove through row after row of boats, primarily sailboats, stored in a disgraceful manner in a watery grave. In the elements they only last a few years. There was every make, model and flavor that you could ever think of. They were sloops and yaws, beautiful older wooden Down Easters, Most were covered to varying degrees in bird poop, and mildew, but under that, you could still get a feel for once glamorous condition. Some were far gone, even by my low standards; they represent death, the end, the point of no return. Many, in fact most of these boats were still salvageable. All of them are old, and they are there for almost free.

Most of these boats have long stories to tell. They have years of stories of exciting races, scary weather, harrowing near collisions. They once had romantic weekends at anchor where lovers cooked romantic, simple dinners on weak, alcohol stoves, and skinny dipping in the moonlight. Family cruises where kids would dive off of the stern and swim in the cove, with lunches of PB&J sandwiches, and sterno dinners

You can make it happen. I know. I did it. I located one of the owners of an abandoned C&C 30MK1 yacht. I worked out a deal with the owner and that old abandoned eye sore lying at anchor in the river is now mine. She is a strikingly beautiful 1981 vantage yacht, completely restored and sailing the weekends away. It cost me $2,500 bucks to call her mine and over the next 3 years and a lot of work, Oh and more money. I think she well worth the work
and money.

I make well under $100, grand I dont want stuff, never have. Its all about choices. Do ya want freedom or do you want stuff. Get rid of the latter and go sailing.
Cheers LT


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

The Twin Cities Sailing Club is only $170 / year for returning members, and that gives you access to several Catalina Capri 16, several MC scows, a C scow, and a bunch of fun people to hang out with. Money well spent.


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

I might not be as rich as everyone on sailnet but I am very rich. In 2013 I grossed $11,956.25. I own and sail my dream boat, have no debt and am able to donate regularly to my favorite charities and still save money every year. With my abundance of free time I am able to keep my boat meticulously maintained and sail as often as I choose. At 45 my health is incredible because I have very little stress and lots of free time to maintain my healthy lifestlye. Hard times fall here and there but then again how could you enjoy a perfect broad reach if you never had to sail to weather.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

We do farily well but as I wrote with 2 kids in college its tough.

The story of our sailboat goes like this -having had boats all my life, but through several twist of fate I found myself boatless in 2010 for the first time in 20 years and an ache started in my gut, but had no funds for boats as we were paying college tuition for the kids. I had a dream but no dollars.

Then a couple years ago a buddy of mine headed off overseas for active duty in Afghanistan and he gave me his beautiful old cedar canoe as a present. Didn't want it anymore he said. I kept telling him I would sell it for him and mail him the money and he finally said " Just shut up and take your damn gift" and that was that. Well I never really liked that canoe and it had to be stored inside so the varnish would stay good. What a pain. And I still wanted a boat. Fate took a hand.

I brought the cedar canoe down to the river with my son one day for a paddle. The owner of the waterfront resteraunt was there and he saw the canoe and took a liking to it. He wanted it for an interior decoration and offered to buy it. I said it was a gift and I didn't feel right selling it. He offered to trade me for his old sailboat. I thought this must be my lucky break so I called my wife and then said okay and he took the canoe and he immediately hung it the in the rafters as a chandelier where it remains today. You can just see my canoe on the ceiling - 









The following week I went to find his sad looking Catalina completely trashed, mildewed and disassembled in a storage yard in new jersey on a trailer with flat tires. Bulkheads unbolted, cushions everywhere, rigging all over. Boat was almost black and covered with algae on the outside but dry inside. I almost left her there as a wreck. Then I rubbed a little bit of the black and underneath was a beautiful white hull. Besides he had said the boat was all complete with no rot and I had the title, so I put air in the tires and set off the three hours for home. On the way the tires blew apart in the dark and and I had to leave her the first night in a farmers hayfield. But I finallly got her up to Poughkeepsie and with a pressure washer and some elbow grease I began to realize that here was the exact boat we had been wanting. Got her rigged up in my yard to check everything and then again at the boat yard.







My wife cleaned the interior and sails and we reassembled everthing from pictures on the internet. Everything was good, just need a little TLC!! The engine stalled only about 100 times and each time I cleaned the carburetor and eventually she started running good. Boat sailed like a dream, the complete interior all the rigging, incredibly everything was there and worked. 

The owner of the bar was so happy to see the boat back and looking great that he offered me the slip next to the tiki bar at a discount. Here she is looking pretty in the restaurant website...I'm not totally crazy about the place, the owner or the occasional drunks but no one ever bothers us and the price is right and its less than a mile from my house. So really the whole thing is sort of a miracle.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

You don't have to be rich or well off at all to go sailing... it's a misnomer to think only rich people have yachts or the right to sail...

With determination anyone that can repair, upgrade, restore a sailboat or powerboat for that matter has the right to be on the water... the other needs such as slip, moorage, latest equipment, etc. aren't neccesary for enjoying the waters...

I belong to a guitar forum that believes in order to play successful guitar you must have the best guitar available (nothing else will do) but I challenge them all the time as the guitar brand or cost is not what matters but the ability to play far exceeds anything the value of the guitar... a good guitarist can play a $50 guitar from Goodwill as good as a guitar worth $5000... I myself have so so guitars and great guitars and I play them all the same regardless of the price of the guitar... same goes with sailing... whether it's a 16 foot sailing skiff or a 50 foot mega sailboat... the enjoyment is the same albeit the larger the boat the more comfort... but the sailing enjoyment is no different... I'm as happy on my 25 foot as I would be on a 50 foot boat.. the difference is the cost to keep and maintain the level of comfort.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

first boat a typhoon
second a CD 24
third a CD 28
fourth a Tayana 37 owned halfsies with a close buddy
fifth a SHE 36 one off built for an OSTAR and left in Conn. when Englishman went home after the race and spiffed up to serve as a single handed cruiser.
sixth a PSC34 left in a shed for a couple of years. Wooded, gone over and sailed.

LAST BOAT a brand spanking new Outbound 46 built to my spec's.

Issue here is each prior boat was bought old and brought up to Bristol Fashion with sweat equity and bits of money when I had it. Actually on several gain equity and had joy of sailing them.
Sad truth if you want to see what's beyond the horizon and go to other counties and not pay for a divorce sailing is still "ripping up thousand dollar bills in a cold shower". Need that Bill Gates attitude toward your kids and the discipline of saving for decades to do your bucket list.
Some of those big boats will sit for awhile and then go off for a year or two. Crying shame if they just sit. Think sailboats are like diesels - need to run long enough to get to operating temp often or they break down. Don't see the sense of a big boat just to daysail unless liveaboard. More fun to daysail in a dedicated daysailor and use the money for something else. Only person you need to impress is yourself.


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## Nancyleeny (Jun 2, 2014)

BarryL said:


> I don't believe that a lack of money is keeping people from sailing. As you note, if you want to sail, you should be able to do it cheaply.
> 
> I started sailing in 2003 with a 1982 Catalina 22. I paid around $3000 for the boat and it was in good condition (not great, but certainly good enough for day sails). The boat was on a trailer and came with a decent outboard engine. I could not get a mooring that year so we trailer sailed the boat. I paid the town $10 for a ramp permit so I could launch the boat, park the car and trailer, etc. I would have to check my records but I think I sailed the boat 5-10 times that year (got the boat in early August).
> 
> ...


Just wanted to comment, we just took up sailing. Kids in and older than college. The moments when you have a good breeze, and the sun is glinting off the water, and the wind and sun are on your face, with no noisy motor, slicing throught the water as people have done for thousands of years- well, this is what makes life magic. Those "in a rush" people? Maybe they'll appreciate it next time around.


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

There is enough philosopical stuff above for me not to want to repeat it.

My attitude is that if you want to own a boat you have to have something to turn into boat. Some folks have lots of money and turn that into boat.

I bought a boat that if I had a lot of money I could afford. But I don't have a lot of money. So I have to find something else that I can afford to turn into boat.

I am blessed with the ability to make things and fix things. So the boat that I own is partly funded using money but mostly funded by skills that I have and that others have to pay for. So I turn those skills into boat.

I have a lot of patience so I turn patience into boat. If the thing I am making turns out to be sub-standard, I make another one until I get one that satifies my standard. It may still not be perfect but works for me without turning my boat into an eyesore.

I also have a standard that meets the combination of money and skills - I don't need perfect - as long as the boat stays presentable, reliable and safe I'm OK with it.

I have posted this before - the truth of it is that if I had to pay someone else to do all the upgrades and R&M, the boat I own would be out of my reach.

So my wealth is not money - but many people think it is. I don't work very hard at explaining it to them.


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## Geof (Mar 21, 2014)

Not rich. And you don't have to be.

Our story:
Sold an old off-road motorcycle from the 1980s and spent the money (no more, no less) on a 1970s sailboat (23.75' LOA) in good condition with an outboard. Bought a trailer for it too, found it in a yard for $900, like new condition, tandem axle large powerboat trailer with hydraulic brakes. Modified it to fit a keeled sailboat for about $300. Now I keep the boat on the trailer mast-up at a lake boat ramp for about $15/month, plus membership in the marina club ($500/year).

We sail it very often (maybe 20 times this year already and including a club racing series). We overnight on it from time to time (a bit like camping, but OK for one night). We regularly get 15-mile day sails in on her. Big enough to take out friends and their kids.

We keep the boat in good repair, and clean it regularly. We spend $ on the things we need (new battery this year, plus $60 in blocks to replace a broken boomvang), and don't spend the money on things we don't need (slip -- since we can launch the boat in less than 30 minutes).

Honestly, we have considered going to a bigger boat in a slip, but we keep coming back to whether we would have more fun or not, and so far it has not gone that way, and we have elected to spend that extra money on our mortgage or saving for retirement.

Our annual investment is probably $1,000/year after the initial boat cost. Yes, that's discretionary income that most people don't have, but it's not a rich activity. I hope the myth about sailing being a rich man's sport is dispelled, but myths don't die easily.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

I have been living aboard and cruising 11 months a year on a months wages a year, since my mid 20's. I am anything but rich, as are most of my full time live aboard cruising friends. Living aboard has saved me so much money that I don't have to work more than a month a year. Living ashore is far more like tearing up thousand dollar bills for entertainment, than living aboard and cruising full time. If that is not the case ,then you are doing something wrong.
The rich don't want people to know that the not so rich can cruise, so they ( and ship swindlerys )sabotage such efforts, by convincing some that the expensive way is the only option cruisers have. Not only is it not the only way, but it is also often not the best way.
You can see this by the way they attack and ridicule anyone who offers more affordable and simpler ways of doing things, on this and other sites.
Don't believe them. It will cost you your dream.


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## 519sail (Jul 21, 2014)

I agree with Brent Swain,
I used to live on a boat for a couple of years and saved so much money from doing it that when i moved off it i was able to spend a serious amount of money on a truck. I remember the feeling of the first of the month coming around and thinking to myself that i don't need to pay a land lord today.


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

I bought my first used Hobie Cat 16, for $1500. I bought my second used Hobie Cat 16 for $250 (with a perfect set of sails and a hole in one hull that I fixed in two hours).

Sailing is a like a lot of hobbies. You can spend a very small amount of money and do it, or an extremely large amount and do it. And, the great thing is, the experience of actually sailing, really isn't that different between the two.

I have a friend who is a long time professional race boater. He alternates between sailing million dollars yachts on ocean races, and Flying Scots on the small bay by our yacht club. He says he's at the point where he enjoys sailing the Scots a lot more.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

If it came down to money I'd simply get a smaller boat. A Laser if need be. Cheap stress reduction. I get the sentiment about the Scotts, though for me it would be a cat.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

Don't expect valuable advice on low cost cruising from the marina queen crowd. The fact that they are still in the marina indicates that they haven't figured it our yet. When some of that crowd leaves for a "long" cruise ,it is often for only three years, then back on the treadmill for life. When you escape, you will meet all kinds of extremely resourceful people who have been cruising for decades on a shoe string budget. They don't own cars , houses, TVs, etc and don't ever pay moorage ,insurance, power and other landlubber expenses. You simply don't meet them until you leave consumer land behind. You wont find them among the marina crowd.
Many marina dwellers simply make a career out of finding excuses for not leaving. Some attack anyone who suggests that what they are giving are simply excuses, to avoid the frightening prospect of actually going.
Taking your advice from them will get you the same results, huge, unecessary expenses, and never leaving .
Some pay others, who have never cruised themselves, $150 an hour for advice on something their "Expert "advisor has never done himself , long term cruising.
It's far simpler than you ever imagined.


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

Brent Swain said:


> Don't expect valuable advice on low cost cruising from the marina queen crowd. The fact that they are still in the marina indicates that they haven't figured it our yet. When some of that crowd leaves for a "long" cruise ,it is often for only three years, then back on the treadmill for life. When you escape, you will meet all kinds of extremely resourceful people who have been cruising for decades on a shoe string budget. They don't own cars , houses, TVs, etc and don't ever pay moorage ,insurance, power and other landlubber expenses. You simply don't meet them until you leave consumer land behind. You wont find them among the marina crowd.
> Many marina dwellers simply make a career out of finding excuses for not leaving. Some attack anyone who suggests that what they are giving are simply excuses, to avoid the frightening prospect of actually going.
> Taking your advice from them will get you the same results, huge, unecessary expenses, and never leaving .
> Some pay others, who have never cruised themselves, $150 an hour for advice on something their "Expert "advisor has never done himself , long term cruising.
> It's far simpler than you ever imagined.


I've cruised and the difference between anchoring out, and staying at a marina, is HUGE as far as the minimum budget necessary to cruise. Just staying in marinas can turn what could have been a five year cruise, into a five month cruise.

On a side note, I pulled into a marina in Marathon on my way to the Bahamas a few years ago to get forwarded mail. On one side of me was a Morgan Out Island 33, and on the other side was a Tayana 37. The owners of both had been planning to cruise they both announced. The guy on the Out Island told me he had been thinking about going to the Bahamas since he had bought the boat. I asked when he bought it and he said, "Five years ago". In Marathon, a day's sail from the Bahamas, but he had never just put the sails up and went.

The Tayana looked like a floating advertisement for West Marine. I've never seen so much gear bolted onto a boat.

I have no doubt they are both still there.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

People always say a boat is a hole in the water in which one throws their money, but I've never understood the statement.
I've not lived in a house in my adult life, but I can't imagine that it costs less to maintain a house, than a boat. As my boats have always been my homes (and sometimes my workplaces), I just don't see it as all that expensive to have a boat.
In many cases, a slip convenient to a city (like Charleston, SC or Providence, RI) is considerably less than a comparable apartment. Often slip fees include, water, garbage, cable, internet and parking. Beat that you shore dwellers!


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

There are a lot sailors I've met without a trust fund. One thing for sure is that we "Good Old Boaters" have to give up other things to be able to go sailing. It's a choice. We also need to fix our own stuff and budget boat upkeep expenditures. The to-do list is actually a priority list based on available funds. It's actually a worthwhile exercise in staying within a budget. Congress could take some lessons from sailors


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

Houses cost money, boats cost money, horses cost money...

According the the IRS.. I'm in the top 5% (thanks to my wife's income and mine combined). I don't feel like the top 5%. I can tell you the IRS has hammered my income so hard I've stopped doing freelance IT work because they took 40+% of my income when I did.

My boating side is cheap though... boat was $5k. I've dropped at least as much in sails, and equipment... but that's been over 3 years. Dockage has been about $1200/year.

Comparatively my sailing is cheap (just feeding 3 horses is more expensive in a year, and that's keeping them at home).


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

My annual real estate taxes in Maryland are far more than my slip rent and winter storage combined and that includes the cost of dockside electricity. 

Cheers,

Gary


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

I spent more on my boat last year (payments, operation,maintenance, repair, storage) than my house last year (payments, fees, all utilities). 

And I have a smaller 2 bedroom house and a 41' 2001 production model boat.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

Don0190 said:


> I spent more on my boat last year (payments, operation,maintenance, repair, storage) than my house last year (payments, fees, all utilities).
> 
> And I have a smaller 2 bedroom house and a 41' 2001 production model boat.


I've spent more on my boat than my house, if you don't count property tax. I have a 3 bedroom house, and only a 22' boat, and the boat still costs more!

(To be fair, everything in the house is newish and doesn't need any work, whereas everything on the boat is oldish and needs lots of work.)


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## rbrasi (Mar 21, 2011)

The only thing better than owning a boat is having a good friend with a boat. Many boat owners who sail a lot need crew and we count on friends for that. With that said, if you are a decent person with a fun personality and an eagerness to sail, you can sail regularly for the price of an 18 pack of Tecate (cans)! You certainly do not have to be rich to bring beer once or twice a week. Unless your skipper is a snooty beer snob and requests some rare craft beer.


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## emcentar (Apr 28, 2009)

Well, it's kind of a silly comment to make, isn't it? It's like approaching someone's family and saying, 'I would totally have kids of my own, but I can't afford to send them to college. You must be rich.' Kids cost more than a sailboat, after all.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

rbrasi said:


> Unless your skipper is a snooty beer snob and requests some rare craft beer.


Fortunately they're putting some really good beers in cans these days


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## i_amcdn (Jul 4, 2012)

I have sailed since '95 when I tipped the club's Albacore into the Ottawa River in May as part of my dinghy lessons. By "club" I mean a co-op where we all raked the lawns in the spring, cleaned and launched the boats and took turns manning the rescue boat. 

I progressed to Basic keel boat the following summer, again on the Ottawa, coastal navigation in the fall and Intermediate cruising in the BVI's in March. If I didn't have points I could not have afforded to get to the BVI's. 

Moving to Toronto in 2001 I joined a sailing club right on the downtown waterfront. It was $120 a month and I could walk across the street every day and take one of their J24's or Sonars out for 3 hours. That was cheap fun. I also crewed on race night and that is where I learned about sailing. 

But still no boat of my own.

Dec 2006 chartered an old, really old, Ben 38 from North South in BVI's. Boat was $1800 US. Flew on points

2008 and 2009 sailed with a Cdn friend we met in the BVI's in 2006. He had a 37' Cat. Paid $0 for boat but bought his rum fuel and food. Man he drank a lot.

Aug 2012: wife gets joke email with 100 people in cc box. She sees email address of long lost friend she had not spoken to for years. 
She reaches out..."where are you?" At 52 he decided to upgrade from Chiro to MD and he was studying at U of Anguilla off SXM. 

"What did you do with your old sailboat that you took my 6 year old daughter and me on 12 years ago?" 

"Oh that *&%%$$? I am trying to get rid of it"

(Ask him how much says me poking her)

"Pay the guy what I owe him for storage the last 3 years and it is yours"

For $800 I now own 81 Edel 665 with 2000 Honda 8 HP and cradle.

I replaced all halyards and sheets, gutted the interior, added some wood, painted the hull and launched May 24 2013....maybe $600 worth of material but a lot of work.

This is my second summer and I still need to:
-replace motor lifting bracket
-install used VHF i have in a box
-get a battery for nav lights and VHF
-paint deck / cockpit
-install window in jib

Money is tight so those will happen when they happen. She is clean, sails fast under one reef and I will drive the 9km even just to sit in the cockpit and enjoy the moment.

I pay $1580 mooring / 700 winter storage so that is the biggest expense every year.

On the side of the pop-top there is a spot reserved for her name, Seque.
(that expense will wait too)

Other than my spouse, she is the deal of my lifetime.


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## Andrew65 (Dec 21, 2009)

I moved out of my 2 room after they raised the rent and onto my boat taking an 80% reduction in expenses. No more dirtdwelling for me. Even if I have to go on unemployment, I'm still making money! When my friends ***** and moan about life's costs, I just smile.


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## i_amcdn (Jul 4, 2012)

Don't you Yanks get to play the "mortgage interest deductibility' scam on boats as well as your 2nd and 3rd homes / cottage / ski chalets?


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## Dirtyfloats (Apr 21, 2014)

There is nothing more exhausting than dealing with wealthy people who, for some reason or another, Think that they are not wealthy.
It's amazing what never gets done, not because of lack of funds, but because, people have so much, that they gety confused and think that they dont have much.
It's also amazing what cann get done when someone excepts that they have no money, and simply find another way of accomplishing their goals.

The biggest divide in north american society, is most certainly class.
It is also one of the most confused.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Dirtyfloats said:


> There is nothing more exhausting than dealing with wealthy people who, for some reason or another, Think that they are not wealthy.
> It's amazing what never gets done, not because of lack of funds, but because, people have so much, that they gety confused and think that they dont have much.
> It's also amazing what cann get done when someone excepts that they have no money, and simply find another way of accomplishing their goals.
> 
> ...


I've pretty much had the opposite experience with rich folks and boats. Any problem can be dealt with, in their mind, by just throwing money at it. When I needed to replace one plastic filter bowl for a Racor 1000FH, the owner sent me three (3) complete units! Duty was astronomical in the T&C and we had nowhere to stow those huge things.
One owner insisted that nothing should go wrong when he was aboard, even if I had to replace the engine every time, before he came aboard. A small fray in the genoa; order a new one! Another owner saw a vessel with black dock lines and "suggested" that they would look nice on his boat, a week or so after having purchased new ones.
It was much better before the tax law reforms of the late 80's, but still, quite often, when I needed some part, I received a complete new, replacement unit, from corporate, instead, at many times the cost. I probably could have made a much better living splitting the money I could have saved some of my owners, by handling the vessel expenditures, than I made as captain of their yachts.


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

Saying you have to be rich to sail, is like saying you have to be rich to own a car.

You have to be rich to own a brand new Ferrari, but you don't have to be rich to own a fifteen year old Chevrolet Impala.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

MOST people with boats are rich to a degree. Even most of the $500/mo people.

Just get over it :laugher


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

ABH3 Boyer said:


> The common stereotype is that people who sail are rich..


I have co-workers who "boat" they all have expensive and semi-expensive powerboats that are larger than my little SS23... yet they look at me like I must spend a lot of money to go sailing.


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## Rhapsody-NS27 (Apr 8, 2012)

mad_machine said:


> I have co-workers who "boat" they all have expensive and semi-expensive powerboats that are larger than my little SS23... yet they look at me like I must spend a lot of money to go sailing.


Compare fuel costs. That might get them thinking otherwise.


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

mad_machine said:


> I have co-workers who "boat" they all have expensive and semi-expensive powerboats that are larger than my little SS23... yet they look at me like I must spend a lot of money to go sailing.


So true. I can burn more fuel in a weekend in my center console, than I burned in diesel bringing my sailboat back from the Bahamas.


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

Collecting the perfectly good cast offs from other vessels and leaving them at the boaters exchange has kept me in beer money. Caveat emptor works from both directions.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

Don0190 said:


> I spent more on my boat last year (payments, operation,maintenance, repair, storage) than my house last year (payments, fees, all utilities).
> 
> And I have a smaller 2 bedroom house and a 41' 2001 production model boat.


 I have been cruising and living aboard for over 40 years and have never made a boat payment to a bank. I have built all my own boats. I do my own maintenance and repairs. I don't pay storage,just anchor out for free.
If your boat is costing you that much then you are obviously doing things wrong. Don't assume everyone does things that wrong.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

capta said:


> I've pretty much had the opposite experience with rich folks and boats. Any problem can be dealt with, in their mind, by just throwing money at it. When I needed to replace one plastic filter bowl for a Racor 1000FH, the owner sent me three (3) complete units! Duty was astronomical in the T&C and we had nowhere to stow those huge things.
> One owner insisted that nothing should go wrong when he was aboard, even if I had to replace the engine every time, before he came aboard. A small fray in the genoa; order a new one! Another owner saw a vessel with black dock lines and "suggested" that they would look nice on his boat, a week or so after having purchased new ones.
> It was much better before the tax law reforms of the late 80's, but still, quite often, when I needed some part, I received a complete new, replacement unit, from corporate, instead, at many times the cost. I probably could have made a much better living splitting the money I could have saved some of my owners, by handling the vessel expenditures, than I made as captain of their yachts.


That is what creates the huge surplus of extremely cheap, almost new used gear, to enable the rest of us to cruise so cheaply. Those who don't clue into this ,and buy everything new ,while complaining about the cost of boating, are just extremely dense, or being childishly snobby.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

There are some really good deals on used sails but I've found that most hardware items are almost as expensive as new if they're in any kind of decent condition. Some of the prices I see on used garbage are laughable.


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## Andrew65 (Dec 21, 2009)

Brent Swain said:


> I have been living aboard and cruising 11 months a year on a months wages a year, since my mid 20's. I am anything but rich, as are most of my full time live aboard cruising friends. Living aboard has saved me so much money that I don't have to work more than a month a year. Living ashore is far more like tearing up thousand dollar bills for entertainment, than living aboard and cruising full time. If that is not the case ,then you are doing something wrong.
> The rich don't want people to know that the not so rich can cruise, so they ( and ship swindlerys )sabotage such efforts, by convincing some that the expensive way is the only option cruisers have. Not only is it not the only way, but it is also often not the best way.
> You can see this by the way they attack and ridicule anyone who offers more affordable and simpler ways of doing things, on this and other sites.
> Don't believe them. It will cost you your dream.


It's funny you mention this.

I'll keep this longer story short.

Back in the day when l lived (aged 27) on my barebones of a Coronado25 for 3 years, l was directed by a wonderful friend to an old old salt living on his steel schooner at a nearby marina to pose him the question that was on my mind "When is a boat ever ready to cruise?" He gave me an inquizened eye and then laughed his head off and emphatically said "Never! Just make sure you have a sound hull and rig and enough food to your next port and you'll take care of the rest. Just don't be French. The French steal." Enlightened, l posed the same question to my dock crowd during sundowner purposefully in front of the Dockmaster. I got ALL kinds of crap answers from beautiful boat owners about needing this and that, so l turned to the dm on the spot and gave him my obligatory 1 months notice. That month was an interesting study in dock behavior while l prepared to leave with basically nothing of good gear. D-day came and no one would even look my way as l left. I had little water and enough MRE's to get me from Clearwater to Marathon which just goes to prove once again "Where there is a will, there is a way". I eventually figured things out along the way.

Foolish? Maybe, but l had a Damn fun year being that kind of foolish.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

Brent Swain said:


> I have been cruising and living aboard for over 40 years and have never made a boat payment to a bank. I have built all my own boats. I do my own maintenance and repairs. I don't pay storage,just anchor out for free.
> If your boat is costing you that much then you are obviously doing things wrong. Don't assume everyone does things that wrong.


Yeah we all know you are a society dropout. Funny that you believe that makes you worthy of being all judgemental of others, even though you know nothing really about them.

It is no wonder that any good thing you post gets lost.


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## smijer (Aug 4, 2014)

My first post in the Introduce Yourself forum should make it clear that I am not a wealthy sailor. I am looking for options to store boat and trailer near a ramp. When I find that, I've got to spend some money on topside and deck paint. I need bottom paint, too... but that will just have to wait. Anyhow, I see a lot of people succeeding in low-budget boating, and that makes me feel more confident. It's nice to read your stories.


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

Andrew65 said:


> It's funny you mention this.
> 
> I'll keep this longer story short.
> 
> ...


I have found, that despite the occasional negative consequences, the foolish do seem to have a lot more fun in life.


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## ottos (Aug 12, 2008)

smijer said:


> .... I am looking for options to store boat and trailer near a ramp....I need bottom paint, too... but that will just have to wait. ...


No need for bottom paint if you are dry sailing.....


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

Brent - good points, but relax man. This is a mellow thread.


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## j d (Jul 27, 2014)

No you don’t need to be rich, but you can’t be poverty stricken either. People find a way to do what they like and it always has a price tag. Any hunters wife can tell you that elk meat is $30 a pound. Motor cycles aren’t cheep and the maintenance goes on and on, and yes the wind is free but catching it with sails sure is not. How do I afford it? I like working on my boat. Maybe not as well as sailing it but it’s all part of the game and doing it your self saves bucks. I try to stay out of the West Marine store, half my gear has come from a sailors consignment/ used store. I try to keep things in repair rather then replacing. I also don’t drive a new truck. It’s 14 years old. Like I said people find a way to do what makes their blood run hot.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

It is beginning to feel like fall here. The huge crowds of a week ago are long gone, back to suburbia to pay for their belief that being "Yachtie-trendy-stylish" is more important than being free to cruise longer. They get their advice at $150 an hour from those who have a great stake in selling them "stylishness" ,most of whom have never cruised long term anywhere, themselves.
Meanwhile, those of us who don't give a rat's ass about keeping up with the Jonses ( we have noticed that the Jonses rarely leave the dock) are enjoying deserted anchorages, for months longer than the " impressives" could ever afford to, while listening to the traffic reports to remind us of what the "Impressives" are doing while we enjoy our quiet anchorages, and snicker at their gullibility.
The swimmin is still great, and can be til October , some years.
Do we wish were were in suburbia, making money we don't need, instead of waking up in quiet anchorages, doing things at any pace we please?

NOT A CHANCE!


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## Nancyleeny (Jun 2, 2014)

Brent Swain said:


> It is beginning to feel like fall here. The huge crowds of a week ago are long gone, back to suburbia to pay for their belief that being "Yachtie-trendy-stylish" is more important than being free to cruise longer. They get their advice at $150 an hour from those who have a great stake in selling them "stylishness" ,most of whom have never cruised long term anywhere, themselves.
> Meanwhile, those of us who don't give a rat's ass about keeping up with the Jonses ( we have noticed that the Jonses rarely leave the dock) are enjoying deserted anchorages, for months longer than the " impressives" could ever afford to, while listening to the traffic reports to remind us of what the "Impressives" are doing while we enjoy our quiet anchorages, and snicker at their gullibility.
> The swimmin is still great, and can be til October , some years.
> Do we wish were were in suburbia, making money we don't need, instead of waking up in quiet anchorages, doing things at any pace we please?
> ...


Well, my kids like the college our jobs pay for, but in three years when my youngest is out, we are done. I'll work part time but right now, having just decided against finishing my education to become a principal when I retire from teaching in 2 1/2 years at 55, I'm leaving public education to do something part time. I'm leaving. Too much stress, too many people hating you, not enough free time. After we got a taste of sailing this year, we realized that a day on the lake/bay/ocean is better than a day in the best castle.


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## armandolio (Aug 7, 2011)

Boyer - you started a great thread.

I love West Marine and have hired a mechanic to do work (except basic stuff). I delayed acquiring a boat and thus my weekend cruising because I wanted to afford sailing and not do it on a shoestring. 

I am grateful for the guys who fix everything themselves as I learn from them. But some of us would not be happy just because we can have an anchorage to ourselves. I opted to live the rat race so I could then afford to sail in comfort and pay someone to fix my engine.

There is no shame in that.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

armandolio said:


> I opted to live the rat race so I could then afford to sail in comfort and pay someone to fix my engine.
> There is no shame in that.


I agree, "There is no shame in that", but unfortunately, there are very few who will fix your engine (or whatever), then go to sea with you, should something else go wrong. Even when I was operating multimillion dollar yachts with a quarter million dollar+ a year budgets, finding reputable and competent repair people in the marine industry was difficult. I can imagine it's even more difficult today, twenty odd years later.
By doing our own work, we can not only be certain the job is done correctly, but we gain the knowledge to repair things far from help. It isn't all about saving money and sailing on the cheap.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

well said!

few places offer good, well priced services these days...and finding the good people in many places takes aaaaaaaaaaaaaa looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooot of time and effort and taxi rides, dead ends, shady people and $$$$ just searching around the shops and or marinas or whatever

cruising, this can ruin your day, week month running around wishing you can find that person or part

know the basics, take spares and ways to make spares out of broken parts and maintain maintain maintain

the more you know the better.

having someone prep your boat for cruising expecting that will be sustainable because it was done by a pro back home or "right" is a fools errand

stuff ALWAYS needs fixing, cruising is fixing stuff in remote places

and some places you wont be able to get stuff fixed, simple as that

now if all you do is daysail in a very popular and services rich area then there is no problem with having work done for you if you can afford it and know the work is being done correctly

again just look at craigslist adds and look what the "cheap" guys are charging to come look at your engine or rig, or whatever...its really expensive.


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## armandolio (Aug 7, 2011)

Capta,
You are correct in that there is a lot of value in being self sufficient. I have owned a boat for 9 months. I expect that several years from now I will be much more capable of fixing my own problems. For now, I just learn, by watching and doing when possible. 

I just wanted to stand up for those of us who are not capable of fixing everything ourselves; yet.


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## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

Christian once again you are telling ppl to become self sufficient that hurts I told you many times that attitude cuts into my 500 a month budget. Rotflmao


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## trantor12020 (Mar 11, 2006)

I'm so tire of telling people that one don't have to be rich to own a sailboat that now when say it I'll just say Yes. And its a choice thing. Think of all the money they could save by not smoking, not drinking, not gambling and not going to bars and night clubs. Then they will be rich as me/I.


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

capta said:


> By doing our own work, we can not only be certain the job is done correctly, but we gain the knowledge to repair things far from help. It isn't all about saving money and sailing on the cheap.


That's so true. It doesn't really matter how much money (realistically speaking) you have when something breaks on the boat and you're in the top end of the Marshall Islands - there ain't nobody coming to fix it.

That said, whilst it's important to know how to fix stuff, it's also important to know that there will be stuff you can't fix and you need a game plan and the skill/knowledge that will get you back to where help is available. It's also important to know what happens next. Most major events are caused by a string of smaller ones and you need to be able to break the chain.

The bottom line for me is that most of the things that will break out there are things I can do without anyway and they represent an inconvenience at best. So don't fret that you don't know how to TIG weld or re-gas your fridge. The things that those skills are needed for are most likely not going stop you going to where you can get them fixed. Your boat is not going to self-destruct just because you don't know stuff.

If you are planning on learning something of value, try learning how to deal with hypothermia or a serious concussion, refit a severed finger or set a compound fracture - they are more likely to cripple your boat than a calamitous gear failure. And they're far more scary.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

newhaul said:


> Christian once again you are telling ppl to become self sufficient that hurts I told you many times that attitude cuts into my 500 a month budget. Rotflmao


**** SORRY !!!!!!!!!! newhaul is not included in this list.:laugher:laugher:laugher:laugher:laugher:laugher:laugher:laugher:laugher:laugher


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

I rigged a 100 amp auto wreckers $35 alternator for Welding. Since then .I have built everything from self steering, to wood stoves, to anchor winches, from scratch, in my cockpit, while at anchor. Easy skill to learn.

I could waste a lot of cruising time making my paint job a mirror finish , so you could see your face in it from across the harbour.For who's benefit? Certainly not mine!
I could polish my stainless until it looked mass manufactured and freshly electro polished. For who's benefit? Certainly not mine. 
The marina queen crowd try to jealously sabotage your freedom, by imposing their judgements, based on their priorities, on you. Having done so little time in the real world , they have no comprehension of practical and functional. Cosmetics and stylishness is all they have to judge a boat and it's gear by. They simply don't have the hands on cruising experience to understand the concept of "function" on a boat. Cruising on a low budget means not being suckered into their "trendiness and yachtieness" priorities .That is what makes boating so expensive for them and their victims. That is why they so rarely leave their marinas. Follow their priorities, and you too can spend horrendous amounts of money, as a slave to other people's priorities, and never leave the marina.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Brent Swain said:


> The marina queen crowd try to jealously sabotage your freedom, by imposing their judgements, based on their priorities, on you. Having done so little time in the real world , they have no comprehension of practical and functional. Cosmetics and stylishness is all they have to judge a boat and it's gear by. They simply don't have the hands on cruising experience to understand the concept of "function" on a boat.


Damn, it must suck to go through life feeling so relentlessly _persecuted_ by anyone, and everyone, who just might happen to own a boat that shines...


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

No, the worst part is seeing others get suckered out of their cruising dreams, by being sold the line that it absolutely MUST shine, or they will die for sure.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Brent Swain said:


> No, the worst part is seeing others get suckered out of their cruising dreams, by being sold the line that it absolutely MUST shine, or they will die for sure.


Well, here's a news flash for you:

Anyone who falls for such crap, was never going anywhere to begin with...


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

unfortunately a lot do...

just like those that are told thay they need the must have cruise gear or you will die

peruse craigslist for many of these GEAR sales youd be surprised how damn repetitve these gear sails are

never used drogue
never use parachute anchor, never used this blah blah blah blah

people get suckered into many things

including threads and forums! oh no!


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

I surely appreciate the spit and polish of meticulously maintained boats. There is beauty in ships that cannot be denied. Functionality is one thing, esthetics is another. I am not into that kind of tedious maintenance, never have been, but applaud the efforts of those who like shiny.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

For the type of "cruising" a lot of people do, what is so great about that? Many people on the cruise circuit go to places that are pretty much the same. They get to their location, eat at a resturant, drink, fix boat stuff (or have someone fix it for them) and buy boat stuff, then figure out where they will go next and leave. Kind of like being on your own cruise ship except you gotta do the work. I have never been "cruising" proper but have sailed all around the world while being crew for the "cruiser" or on working boats. Some "cruisers" do get off the beaten track and do cool stuff but 99% don't. 

For me, sailing is just fine.

BTW, if you want to buy a boat and don't have the money, take a look at the car you drive. I have never owned a new car and not too many years from retirement- probably will never buy a new car. New cars are probably the biggest waste of money today. Buy a simple used car and learn how to fix it. If you cannot fix most things on a car and are having problems raising funds for a sail boat, probably cannot afford to maintain a boat either.


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## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

Spit and polish when cruising that's what you do in between ports of call so you look shipshape when you enter a port


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## Aquarian (Nov 8, 2010)

We lived on a 42 foot boat on a mooring in the Caribbean for 2 years. It cost us less per month to live there including boat repairs than it cost to live on land in the US in a tiny one bedroom apartment. I guess it's all relative. We have friends who dream of sailing away, and they ask us how we managed to make it happen. Some of these folks are better off financially than we are. We tell them to start by getting rid of stuff. Stuff keeps you tied to terra firma. We usually get a confused look in response. I think there are a large number of people who love to fantasize about sailing away, but that is really all they want it to be. For them it is more comfortable for sailing away to remain inaccessible and a fantasy. So they choose to believe that it has to cost a lot of money.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

newhaul said:


> Spit and polish when cruising that's what you do in between ports of call so you look shipshape when you enter a port


Either you sail with large crews (as in many, not big guys), or you've figured a way to get enough free time between ports for spit and polish. What is the secret, 'cause I've not found it yet.


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## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

capta said:


> Either you sail with large crews (as in many, not big guys), or you've figured a way to get enough free time between ports for spit and polish. What is the secret, 'cause I've not found it yet.


Small boat and little stainless the bronze takes care of itself also cleaning messes as I make them and I'm a solo sailor


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

capta said:


> Either you sail with large crews (as in many, not big guys), or you've figured a way to get enough free time between ports for spit and polish. What is the secret, 'cause I've not found it yet.


Maybe the difference is having a "working ship" and accepting that the salty look ain't so bad.


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

The prettiest boats in my marina, are the ones that never seem to leave the dock, and that I never see anyone on, except the workers who clean and polish them.

I had a wooden Grand Banks 42 next to me in my slip in Miami. There was a college kid whose job was to sand, paint, varnish and polish the thing every weekend. The boat was beautiful and I got to know him well. I never did meet the owner, and I never saw that boat leave the slip even one time in three years.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Group9 said:


> The prettiest boats in my marina, are the ones that never seem to leave the dock, and that I never see anyone on, except the workers who clean and polish them.
> 
> I had a wooden Grand Banks 42 next to me in my slip in Miami. There was a college kid whose job was to sand, paint, varnish and polish the thing every weekend. The boat was beautiful and I got to know him well. I never did meet the owner, and I never saw that boat leave the slip even one time in three years.


And yet, there are people like Tom and Vicky Jackson on SUNSTONE, who manage to maintain a high-maintenance vessel in pristine condition, while voyaging extensively in some very challenging regions of the world - thus proving it doesn't necessarily have to be an Either/Or proposition...

Hopefully, they might be forgiven for trying to "sabotage (Brent's) freedom"...



index



















Ironically, if his "marina crowd" ever did manage to cut the lines and get 'out there' en masse, he'd be whining about the overcrowding of his favorite cruising grounds...

I know I sure would be... Frankly, I'm thankful that such a large percentage remain tethered to the dock, and will likely remain so... Hell, it's already crowded enough out there as it is...


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

BINGO

youre not supposed to say that though JON

dont say youre happy the marina queens arent leaving...


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## Boasun (Feb 10, 2007)

Nothing to really to worry about except for the small detail of Obama's EPA trying to figure out on how to tax us for the use of wind power, every time we go sailing...

They will probably say that our sails are interferring with the natural order of the wind and causing it to disapate or some other silly reason. You needn't worry, because this is your tax dollars at work...

Everyone has the right to be 'Stupid' every so often. But there are some who abuse it heavily.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

Boasun said:


> Nothing to really to worry about except for the small detail of Obama's EPA trying to figure out on how to tax us for the use of wind power, every time we go sailing...
> 
> They will probably say that our sails are interferring with the natural order of the wind and causing it to disapate or some other silly reason. You needn't worry, because this is your tax dollars at work...
> 
> Everyone has the right to be 'Stupid' every so often. But there are some who abuse it heavily.


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

JonEisberg said:


> And yet, there are people like Tom and Vicky Jackson on SUNSTONE, who manage to maintain a high-maintenance vessel in pristine condition, while voyaging extensively in some very challenging regions of the world - thus proving it doesn't necessarily have to be an Either/Or proposition...
> 
> Hopefully, they might be forgiven for trying to "sabotage (Brent's) freedom"...
> 
> ...


Well that is a pretty boat.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Sunstone,
I like that name. Interesting blog.

Here is there blog:
index


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## Mark1948 (Jun 19, 2007)

A key comment in all the responses has been the frugality of the owners. While we are not wealthy we are conservative with our finances and focus on what is important to us. Where else can you get waterfront property where you can change the view and not pay real estate property taxes.


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## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

Boasun said:


> Nothing to really to worry about except for the small detail of Obama's EPA trying to figure out on how to tax us for the use of wind power, every time we go sailing...
> 
> They will probably say that our sails are interferring with the natural order of the wind and causing it to disapate or some other silly reason. You needn't worry, because this is your tax dollars at work...
> 
> Everyone has the right to be 'Stupid' every so often. But there are some who abuse it heavily.


https://s-media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/originals/27/ed/e8/27ede8181ca5ea0138ff78e55573c25c.jpg


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Boasun,
Back in the year leading up to the AC in San Francisco, the cup authority had to do an environmental impact report, reputably costing into the six figures, to specifically address the bird issue. When the indications were that the boats had the potential to travel in excess of thirty knots, some environmentalists were concerned that the local seabird population wouldn’t be able to cope with it and either be outright killed by the sails or go into breeding shock. The report was dutifully written and vetted. Thankfully, neither tragedy came to pass.


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

I can understand the concern. I went into a breeding shock once due to the actions of the birds I was hanging with.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

JonEisberg said:


> And yet, there are people like Tom and Vicky Jackson on SUNSTONE, who manage to maintain a high-maintenance vessel in pristine condition, while voyaging extensively in some very challenging regions of the world - thus proving it doesn't necessarily have to be an Either/Or proposition...
> 
> Hopefully, they might be forgiven for trying to "sabotage (Brent's) freedom"...
> 
> ...


That kind of "Cruising" is defined as "working like a slave in exotic locations."


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Brent Swain said:


> That kind of "Cruising" is defined as "working like a slave in exotic locations."


Yeah, well... give them a bit more time to finally see the Wisdom of Your Way...

They've only managed to put 170,000 miles in SUNSTONE's wake thus far, after all...


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

The original question of whether you need to be "rich" to sail can be answered in one word-YES. When considering the conditions of the majority of the people on the planet, we should all thank our lucky stars that we can even discuss such things. By mere fate, we happened to be born here and now.


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## Nancyleeny (Jun 2, 2014)

smurphny said:


> The original question of whether you need to be "rich" to sail can be answered in one word-YES. When considering the conditions of the majority of the people on the planet, we should all thank our lucky stars that we can even discuss such things. By mere fate, we happened to be born here and now.


This. While most of us don't probably consider ourselves "rich," I need to remind myself that much of the world doesn't even have clean running water, so I am, in fact, rich beyond measure.


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## bblument (Oct 22, 2012)

Omatako said:


> If you are planning on learning something of value, try learning how to ....... refit a severed finger or set a compound fracture - they are more likely to cripple your boat than a calamitous gear failure. And they're far more scary.


Indeed. If anyone DOES have some personal experience or specialized knowledge on how to deal with those two tragic scenarios, I am ALL ears and eyes... type away.. please!

Barry


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

Nancyleeny said:


> This. While most of us don't probably consider ourselves "rich," I need to remind myself that much of the world doesn't even have clean running water, so I am, in fact, rich beyond measure.


My brother is an engineer who volunteers for a humanitarian organization that drills water wells in Africa and builds fiberglass storage tanks to go with them. I sent him this cartoon to take with him.


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## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

bblument said:


> Indeed. If anyone DOES have some personal experience or specialized knowledge on how to deal with those two tragic scenarios, I am ALL ears and eyes... type away.. please!
> 
> Barry


A good place to start would be taking an approved OEM (offshore emergency medical ) course they are offered all over the place. Offshore Emergency Medicine | First Aid Training Courses Marine Medicine || Medical Officer, Ltd. || 970.275.4999 check with local red cross office for ones in your area.


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

bblument said:


> Indeed. If anyone DOES have some personal experience or specialized knowledge on how to deal with those two tragic scenarios, I am ALL ears and eyes... type away.. please!


As it happens, I have had a severed finger. My wife put my finger back together on the boat and it took two days to get me to a hospital where the surgeons fixed if properly. It now works about 95%. But had it not been for the ground work done on the boat I would have only nine today.

I am unfortunately very careless with my extremities (no not that one, dirty bugger!!) and almost severed my right hand at the wrist, crushed a finger, broken fingers and limbs and serious lacerations but have luckily escaped the compound fracture. I have no doubt though that my wife will fix it well enough to get me to a doctor.

We also keep a useful stock of morphine in the 1st aid box without which these events are a lot more debilitating.

Sorry for thread hijack.


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## Steve in Idaho (Jun 22, 2012)

> Originally Posted by smurphny
> The original question of whether you need to be "rich" to sail can be answered in one word-YES. When considering the conditions of the majority of the people on the planet, we should all thank our lucky stars that we can even discuss such things. By mere fate, we happened to be born here and now.





Nancyleeny said:


> This. While most of us don't probably consider ourselves "rich," I need to remind myself that much of the world doesn't even have clean running water, so I am, in fact, rich beyond measure.


Very true. We are blessed.

OTOH...people have been sailing long before indoor plumbing, and are in fact, sailing even now in what most of us here would consider "poverty" (out of necessity, in some cases).






After all - it just takes some wind, some water, some sticks, and something to catch the wind.

The fact of the matter is that for the vast majority of us with internet access, it's just a matter of priorities.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

The Pardeys told me that after every major passage they have three weeks of hard work to get their boat back in shape. Mine takes a couple of hours. Seems that they spend a lot more time than me, working like a slave on their boat in exotic locations. Been there done that, on my first boat. While I was sanding and varnishing, those on more practical boats were fishing golfing , etc. I woke up,some never do. Next boat was far more practical. 
The more cruising most people do, the more they are attracted to work boat priorities. Some, a small percentage, stick to their masochistic pleasures of working their asses off to impress the amateurs,and become a slave to their naive priorities.
Check out Bob Griffith's book "Blue Water" Check out the photos for its "Yachtieness"
Then do the same with Moitesiers books "The Long Way" and "Cape Horn the Logical Route. Then read the text, and compare his complete lack of problems, compared to the cruises of the far more "Yachtie."


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

This was one of the best posts, posted on the origamiboats site, a while back.

---In [email protected], <[email protected]> wrote :

Regardless of what material Bob likes or dislikes. We need to dig
deeper into our emotional reasons why we do what we do. The arguments
for and against steel have been settled have been done over a million
times. Advocates of each think they have the battle won. Now back to
the emotion....

Simply put most dreamers and can do types simply dont have the money
to engage a NA to design or even purchase a hull advocated by Bob
fullstop. I cant even recall when i last saw one of these hitech
hulls in Reunion, Capetown, Chrismas Islands, or wherever your
favourite remote cruising ground is. Yet i see plenty boats with
people who only have the basic means to deliver their dreams. I
always marvel that they have been on the water for years and some are
on third and fourth circumnavigations. Hey whats all that noise, its
six in the morning, head out of the hatch, JeeeeeSUS what the hell
its a hitech aircraft carrier French hull with maybe 12 crew. MMMMMM
formalities out of they way, Oh you only staying one day "we in a
hurry because the owner has to be back in France to run his dot com
business and is only on this one leg". This is the typical routine
for these high pressure types with their hitech boats, and surely
this is not the lifestyle or cruising style that most who build boats
or scrape and save dream about. To most the boat is an means to an
end, and so long as it meets the basic survival criteria it will do.
By enlarge metal boats feature heavy in this thinking. Just like the
vast majority drive everyday automobiles, only a minority of archair
warriors dream about Porsches knowing full well they will never use
it to its full capability or can hardly afford it, and is beyond the
role of basic transportation. If you are one of these dreamers you
will never get away, because your funds will be totally exhausted,
with cost overruns, and technical developements on the fly taking
this hitech approach. When the hull cracks are you going to fly the
builder and his crew out to Del Fuego to advise whether you should
continue in your boat or charter the Antinov to fly your hull home
for repairs? With due respect to Bob, you only have to be in Aukland
one or twice to see the reality of this situation, the quotes of $30K
seem to be reasonable for insurance damage on some minor mooring
incidents. The owners dont care, they fly home while the hull dries
out. Something the designers of these laminates have not addressed
regardless of kevlar or dyneema. This kind of disaster would destroy
most peoples cruising plans, so steel under these circumstance makes
logical sense. Its wrong of coarse for Bob, this is just part of the
game of hitech, you gotta have pain for gain Bob?? Even if it is
wrong on the Silicon Graphics workstation and finite element analysis
version 23, steel users dont give a damm, something some people
refuse to acknowledge.

What i largely see is a low tech fleet of slow(relatively) heavy
plastic, steel and ferro. Simply most cant afford the "ideal" boat,
and even if they could afford it could not spare the time for long
term cruising. I see time and time again the Techno Wizard boats on
the milk run from San Diego finnishing in Aukland, and low and behold
they fly home and get the crew to deliver the boat home. Not what
most long term cruisers are thinking about, the horizon will always
be there for them. Another fact is simply that the vast majority of
yachts go nowhere, the more hitech the boat is the faster you will
sail and probably you more likely to go nowhere. Very few of these
boats are really thought out well, LET ALONE BE DESIGNED BY 
SOMEONE WHO HAS ACTUALLY CRUISED. This assumes most who build metal boats
want to cruise. Most others will be stuck in the marina with the
owners on the bar stool, saying see my miracle 99 overthere its built
out of fritanium fudge and its the best thing since sliced bread, i
bought it for cruising but my wife hates boats and prefers her
friends at the country club or the Newport Yacht club. It seems only
the affluent have the money to buy these boats, so presumably they
wont have the time to cruise.
It seems the vast majority of the hitech fleet fall into this
category and simply have a arrogant diposition and laugh at people
who happily cruise for years on 32 foot boats or anything that did
not cost a million. Considering that a hitech trailer sailor will
cost more than most steel boats, one wonders how logical it can be
that small hitech uncapable boat costs more than the average steel do
anything cruiser.

My personal view is that those hitech junkies they have long lost
the will to dream or be captured by romantic ideals. Unfortunately
carbon fibre and fudgy cores dont figure in this the romantic lines
of many cruisers dreams. I think most people who have practical
common sense will look at steel or old heavy plastic, those that cant
afford the classic plastic opt for building and most times its steel.
Its totally wrong to call these people fools and shoot them down with
unproven techno babble. Because simply at the end of the day
anecdotal evidence is in their favour. Its amazing occurence if some
el cheapo Beneteau which a kid can stick a screwdrive through does a
circumnavigation, yet the numerous steel hulls from 26 and up rarely
get a mention. It always amuses me that in the usa where most boats
are plastic and the huge media bias against anything economical and
under 40 feet i see sometimes more small cruisers and steel cruisers
in most ports. Someone is certainly missing the boat. The bias
towards production plastic boats and 44 foot plus is clearly
evident. Yet outside this unreality the evidence is exactly
opposite. So one really has to wonderS who is fooling who. I am
sorry to say Bob your reasoning is not part of common cruising
folklore and dreams, you need to work on some romantic cruising story
books featuring hitech, or start the Asmovian boat group where
members can determine if its shorter too Tahiti through a black
carbon fibre hole or whether the dynamics of H2O surface tension will
get your there without fixing or finding wormholes in the laminate.

SO what i am saying is that its nice being modern and technically
aware, but the boat hull is only about 1% of the total pie, and to
simply focus on the material when 99 other elements have to be
considered is wrong. If building in steel saves you money, time and
does the job who really cares about those other things. Just like
most of us in our daily lives know the space program is good for us
long term, we dont contemplate that the space shuttle tiles will be
on our keel in the future. We roof our houses in clay and use lead in
our keels. The sad fact is that regardless of how good these
materials are, there are only probably less than 5 builders in the
world who can do the kind of boats the Bob advocates.

Since this group is about people interested in building these kind
of simple egalitarian boats, i thought i would focus on these ideals,
and strengths of the philosophy of the designers and the people who
dare to dream and dont play the consumer orientated childish snobbery
games of life.The final comments is that there more web pages on
steel boats and cruising than hitech laminates and hitech boats, that
should tell you something.

Will


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