# What type of Keel do you prefer....



## Curious Sailor (Dec 6, 2015)

With all of the different types of keels available, I'm curious to know which are the most popular amongst all of you sailors out there... :cut_out_animated_em


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Topic done and dusted! 

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/sailb...8459-full-keel-vs-fin-modified-full-keel.html


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Curious Sailor said:


> With all of the different types of keels available, I'm curious to know which are the most popular amongst all of you sailors out there


Mine ... without a doubt, mine :captain:.


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## smj (Jun 27, 2009)

Two, one on each hull!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

One that stays attached, or at least within the boat... Apparently I prefer NO keel, but rather a Lifting weighted daggerboard.
S2 7.9 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com


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## oldragbaggers (Dec 6, 2005)

I'll take our full keel, except when backing up.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

oldragbaggers said:


> I'll take our full keel, except when backing up.


Like I said, mine :devil.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Deep fin


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Hmmm.........sqeeeeeeeek......oops, who cut the cheese?!?!?!?!???

Honestly, being as there is NOT a what size boat etc. I will say ALL have plus and minus's. "It Depends" is probably the correct answer. 

Marty


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

Ones that don't fall off!


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

One that is shallower than my next anchorage.


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## Tanski (May 28, 2015)

Depends on the kind of sailing I'm doing and where. Currently have and prefer a fin keel, next boat will probably be some type of full or semi full keel. Owned trailerable weighted centerboard boats up to 21', planing centerboard dingies when I was young and wanted to race.


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## MikeJohns (Apr 23, 2008)

blt2ski said:


> ............ I will say ALL have plus and minus's. "It Depends" is probably the correct answer.
> 
> Marty


I agree; it really depends.

A low aspect keel operates similarly to an aircraft delta wing and provides lift through spanwise vorticity . They can produce a large amount of lift at very low speeds and at high angles of attack and high loading that would completely stall a higher aspect foil. 
A low aspect keel can suit a slower heavier cruising setup allowing it to sail slowly to windward, and with decent lift which can suit a tired or short crew. They don't have the poor stall characteristics (the sudden loss of lift) of a high aspect foil.

However a lot of keel hung rudders with prop apertures were draggy and had poor turning moments since they work by changing the centre of effort of the keel rather than operating as a separate lifting foil. Modern full keel variants are better with a slightly shorter keel and a separate semi balanced rudder well aft.

A high aspect keel is a foil, or wing, and produces lift from foil action which is quite a different operational paradigm. A light fast boat benefits significantly from the reduced wetted surface area and can usually be kept moving well enough for the keel to develop lift. But they do stall more easily and stall abruptly losing most of their lift at stall.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

The best keel is the one that is paid for.


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## dylanwinter1 (Jan 15, 2010)

two are good for me

20 foot tides where I sail

so a boat that does not fall over when the tide goes away is a marvelous thing to have






and you twin keel knockers who have never sailed with them

it is all down to the way you waggle the tiller

D


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## reduc (Sep 19, 2014)

I bought a shoal draft boat to live aboard as I wanted access to more gunkholes. I suffer some in upwind performance, but then everything in boating seems to be a trade-off.


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## jackdaw (Nov 21, 2010)

A deep, high aspect lifting keel. A large part of the popularity of modern lifting keels is that is gives all those 'deep keel' benefits, with the ability to take the boat into shallow/tidal areas. The keel on the Pogo 12.50 gives almost 12 feet of draft for enormous stability, but comes up at the press of a button to 3 feet. In addition, the mechanism has a hydraulic fuse that opens and protects the boat in the event of a very hard grounding; one that would almost certainly cause structural damage to a fixed keel.










Our smaller boat the First 260 has almost the same keel, just with a manual lifting screw in place of the fancy hydraulics.


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## DonScribner (Jan 9, 2011)

I don't think the question was "What is the best keel?" but rather, "What do you like about YOUR keel?". 

Our Lancer 25 has a shoal keel and draws 30". The keel is long, about 8-10 feet, and 21" wide, kind of looks like a submarine conning tower. It's that wide because you stand in it inside. The setup gives us about 5'10 headroom for much of the cabin. The drawback is performance, as you can well surmise. But we go places that sailboats have no business going. Plus, we can launch in 3' of water. It "aint easy", but we can do it. With our 10' tides, I'm less likely to go keel deep in the flats than others, so I can gunkhole in some private spots. I've sailed into places with people waving me off. I smile and wave back as I pass though 3 foot areas. I would love to have a boat with better sailing characteristics but I gotta tell you, the access is nice too.


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

DonScribner said:


> I don't think the question was "What is the best keel?" but rather, "What do you like about YOUR keel?".


If that is the case... then hard to beat my lifting weighted daggerboard for trailering, or gunk-holing.. Boat literally can float in 18 inches of water (board up), and it's a self-righting boat, even board up...

Downside? If I run aground board down, I might very well, destroy the dagger trunk, or worse, compromise the hull.

We have a very stone-laden bottom lake that is nicely average depth of about 24 feet. The edges drop off nicely mostly around the lake, but there are a few places that one must not sail. I've been lucky - so far.

Prior to the present boat, I had a deep fixed fin keel. Prior to that I had a fixed wing keel.

Loved how the fin sailed (probably best of the bunch), horrible to trailer launch.

Loved the wing keel to launch, terrible point out of it though (boat sailed sideways until it got up to speed.

So among the 3, I'd say the lifting weighted dagger is the best compromise.

L


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

I like my own keel (don't most of us?) that allows sailing close to the wind when it's all the way down, but then can be tucked completely away when necessary to float in less than 2' of water. I still have 6'3" headroom under the coachroof on my 35 footer. Here's a couple of views with keel down, keel up, and a close shot of the keel housed.

These photos were taken last season after the first layer of barrier coat was applied. BTW, the rudder also swings up, but happens to be down here.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

I like my keel deep and heavy for safety and upwind performance, encapsulated for easy maintenance (no bolts or leaks to worry about), and made of lead so they will not rust and be a total PITA to maintain.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

I prefer a well designed keel. A full keel can be designed to sail quickly and well, and a fin can be poorly designed and be a dog. So for me quality of design is paramount.


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

I have to agree about encapsulated keels - I much prefer them over bolted on.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Have moderate aspect fin ( by modern standards ) with bulb but encapsulated. Bottom half of cavity is pored lead. The bulb bolted on ( it's split in half. Then whole thing glassed over again. 
Allows excellent avs. Very good pointing ability. Moderate draft of 6 1/2' no no keel bolts.
Have had full, modified full, very high aspect fin in past. Current design fits current use of half BWS and half coastal. If I was going more coastal would go keel/ centerboard. Agree some interesting spots in the nucks and crannies.
Find the asymmetric horizontal wing keels a fascinating idea. Bottom flat. Top curved. Just like a true wing. Deploy one on the leeward side and away you go. The stronger the wind the faster you go. The faster you go the more lift. Flat sailing not dependent on just keel weight but not foiling so usable in a seaway. Pull them in when downwind. No wetted surface so no parasitic drag from a keel.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Faster said:


> Topic done and dusted!
> 
> http://www.sailnet.com/forums/sailb...8459-full-keel-vs-fin-modified-full-keel.html


Boy, as noted at the top of page three by now not posting here Valenti, about post by t34c Robert Gainer. Jeff saying the same as I am feeling. An old timer, now gone with good info! Just as this person will be missed with his opins on different boat designs, things etc....

As far as which keel, will still to my lackadaisical way of saying on initial posts. Opinions are like a-holes, we all them, they all stink!

ALL keels, no matter the design, have plus and minus's. Choose your poison, do not look back!

marty


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

That prior thread is a great read. We are lucky to have JeffH.


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## Mark1948 (Jun 19, 2007)

Prefer Lead over cast Iron seems that you can get more weight lower with out as much bulk.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

On my current boat, I procrastinated for a long time whether to go for a single keel or twin keels. Going for for twin keels was one of the best decisions I made .In the last 32 Years ,I have never paid to tie to a dock, which has given me the freedom to cruise 11 months a year( which is what a cruising boat is for). I have only paid for two haulouts in that time ( only because I was in an area where the tide was too little ,and I had 4,000 miles of windward sailing ahead of me.)
I lose only about 5% performance over a single keel, and then only to windward. Rolling is greatly damped by twin keels.
In the 80's, 80% of the boats I did went for single keels. Now 80% want twin keels, and those who went single keel, wish they had gone for twin keels.
The advantage is mainly where there is lots of tidal range.


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## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

I prefer the least amount(depth) of keel, that will give me good all around sailing performance, while allowing access to shoal areas for anchoring and exploring. 

The centerboard boat I own is a good compromise. When we're out coastal sailing, the board goes up and down, a lot.


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## 2Gringos (Jan 4, 2008)

We chose this boat specifically for this area. Lots of shallow, uncharted waters with coral heads etc. What we like about our keels are that they only draw a meter of water, which is pretty good for a 40 ft. boat, and they are just over an inch thick, and solid fiberglass. Guess I could say my favorite keels are ones with water under them.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

We draw 6.5ft, which is not a lot in the grand scheme of things. However, there are often anchorages or mooring fields, where the best tucked in spots are the exclusive domain of the stinkpots and cats. We just convince ourselves we're pretty cool, when we have to anchor out among the schooners or the big dogs from the New York Yacht Club. 

We did anchor once, in the outer harbor of Edgartown, among the New York Yacht Club summer flotilla. Our puny little 54ft looked like a dinghy among the city of multi-deck yachts, lit up like a skyline. I wish I had a pic. Hilarious.


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## 2Gringos (Jan 4, 2008)

Edgartown, I know it fairly well after living on the Cape for 20 years. Was back for a wedding last August. You in deep yankee land there, boy.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Was in Sag Harbor last summer. With 6 1/2' feet anchored to the left of the marinas. We were the size of the dinghies.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

But I have this vision "What if you were anchored in Porto Fino on your 160' mega yacht. The crew was ashore and you were sitting on the stern, nice glass of Montrachet in your hand and,,,,you were depressed. What now?

Doesn't, have anything to do with draft but it came to mind reading about feeling your boat was small.

In my experience you can get by just fine almost anywhere with 6'3" draft.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Damn it's that two inches that keeps getting me in trouble my whole life through.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Out: I think you own one of the great cruising boats. You know damn well you have nothing to ***** about. That is a "to die for" boat.


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

bobperry said:


> In my experience you can get by just fine almost anywhere with 6'3" draft.


Yes, but you are on the left coast. On the right coast, it helps to have less draft for some of our crowded anchorages. This poor fellow needed to draw less than 4' at the edge of the Cuttyhunk Town mooring field. Note the mooring ball off his stern. (BTW, he didn't need a tow, he waited for the tide and took a mooring in deeper water.)


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Fall: There are lots and lots of standard draft Valiant 40's on the East Coast. Apparently 6'3" draft works for them.


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## Curious Sailor (Dec 6, 2015)

MikeOReilly said:


> Like I said, mine :devil.


Lol!


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Bob you know the old joke about why you never ask your wife to measure anything. I was trying to be humorous. Oh well.....

I really appreciate what you said and I'm sure Carl does as well. It was nice so you need to be careful.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

bobperry said:


> But I have this vision "What if you were anchored in Porto Fino on your 160' mega yacht. The crew was ashore and you were sitting on the stern, nice glass of Montrachet in your hand and,,,,you were depressed. What now?
> 
> Doesn't, have anything to do with draft but it came to mind reading about feeling your boat was small.
> 
> [red]In my experience you can get by just fine almost anywhere with 6'3" draft.[/red]


As much as I would like to agree with this bob perry person, whom ever he may be.......

6'3" of draft in the 8' pram I had as a learning to sail, oh, built it me self teenager. would probably be a bit more than I needed. The CB with 1.5-2' was plenty for that boat.

So with ALL due respect to this Bob Perry person, again, whom ever he thinks he is.........."IT DEPENDS" is the correct answer, I might need to disCUSS the diaper variety of depends if he is whom I have a feeling he is.......I've been told someone of importance....like a boat designer architect type person.......

I had a GREAT day skiing in some wet snow, at least it was snowing.....so figure I can be a bit goofy tonight! make sure ye all watch out for fuzzy womBets. I hear they get scary looking, kinda like a Tasmanian something or other.......

marty


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## 2Gringos (Jan 4, 2008)

bobperry said:


> In my experience you can get by just fine almost anywhere with 6'3" draft.


Well, would depend on your definition of getting by 'just fine'. A 75" draft here would keep you out of more than half the marinas, and severely limit where you could sail and anchor. There are huge areas where you just can't go. And thousands of uncharted coral heads shallower than 75" in the areas where you _can_.


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## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

fallard said:


> Yes, but you are on the left coast. On the right coast, it helps to have less draft for some of our crowded anchorages. This poor fellow needed to draw less than 4' at the edge of the Cuttyhunk Town mooring field. Note the mooring ball off his stern. (BTW, he didn't need a tow, he waited for the tide and took a mooring in deeper water.)


Cuttyhunk Pond is the perfect example of why I prefer shoal draft. Our family of four, sailing from Maine, have spent many, many memorable days and nights at anchor in Cuttyhunk Pond.

Never a reservation - often on weekends in late August - we've only once had to take a mooring. That night, the mooring field was noisy, smelly(engines and generators running-one upwind all night), but it could be fun in there on a good night(not knocking it).

Anchored well outside the mooring field(beyond where this deep draft boat in your photo is aground), is a different world.

We've spent many days swimming, dinghy sailing in the shoal area. It's like having a private beach - our kids loved it growing up.

It's tricky anchoring, dicey holding but very well protected. Our long keel(board raised) combs the weeds and sand at LW. That's not for everybody but that pristine patch of shoal water is a lure I can't resist.

We would enjoy a different Cuttyhunk if our boat drew 6'. There's a good chance we wouldn't have found a mooring on many of our visits. Late in the day, we'd have anchored(or taken a mooring) in the outer harbor. I've watched the boats out there, still very nice but it's a different world at times due to the exposure.

A couple of peaceful nights at anchor in the Pond, we've been awakened at 4 or 5 am by the eerie cry of a pack of Coyotes traveling along tiny Copicut Neck. Hard to believe with so many boats just a few hundred yards away. We're in a different world.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

TomMaine said:


> ......Anchored well outside the mooring field(beyond where this deep draft boat in your photo is aground), is a different world.


That photo just put me over the edge. Now I really need to get back on the water. Cutty is a standard. Ironically, that is a Jeanneau 54 in your pic, but not us. It has to be one of the bareboat fleet out of Newport, because it's often right there. I suspect it's a private mooring, because the LOA is too long for the town field. Still, I've driven through the mooring field before, without trouble.

That little anchorage you've mentioned is interesting. Personally, I don't think I could sleep on anchor there,even if our draft allowed. As you note, the holding is so-so. We have a buddy that loves anchoring there. My biggest concern would be everyone anchored around me, swinging on different scopes a chain v rope, etc. I drop the hook outside everytime and only go with southerly winds.



> We're in a different world.


That's for sure. Great island to go ashore and walk around. Ice cream and lobster available at the height of the season. Multiple places to go swimming or picnic ashore. Dinghy across the outer harbor anchorage to see the cattle on Nashawena Island cooling themselves off.  Totally different world.


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## FloridaBoy (May 4, 2014)

Can you guys tell me what kind of keel this is?People ask me all the time and I don't know what to say. Modified full keel? It has a center board. kevin 
MORGAN 35 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

FloridaBoy said:


> Can you guys tell me what kind of keel this is?People ask me all the time and I don't know what to say. Modified full keel? It has a center board. kevin
> MORGAN 35 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com


Your keel type would be a keel-centerboard with a spade rudder. In this case the centerboard is housed in a shoal draft fin keel. (The profile is a little misleading because if I remember correctly there was a skeg aft of the keel which housed the prop. shaft.)

This configuration was pretty common in the late 1960's and beginning of the 1970's. Probably the nicest of these was the S&S designed Tartan 34 but Charlie Morgan was about as good as the came when it came to designing keel-centerboard designs.

I have always been a big fan of this configuration. It is one of my favorite configurations for long distance cruising. With the board down this configuration generally went to weather well. Downwind the board could be raised to improve performance, yet the residual fin and separate rudder produced great control.

Another big advantage is to be able to partially raise the CB and balance out weather helm making it easier on the helmsman or autopilot.

I also like the ability to retract the board and slip into shallower channels or corners of harbors. It was thought that these boats did well in extreme conditions with the board raised reducing the impact of surface sheer in large breaking waves.

If there is a downside to this configuration it is that it is hard to get the ballast as low as a fixed fin, and so these boats typically exhibit a mix of being a little less stable than a fin keel version, having more wetted surface in order to increase the size of the fin to hold more ballast lower, and/or heavier since they need more ballast to make up for the shallower position of the ballast. They also require a little bit more maintenance but that usually is not to onerous. There is the whole mythology about clunking centerboards but I have not experienced that on boats this size, but that does not mean that clunking does not happen on some models of keel-centerboard designs.

I hope that clears that up for you,
Jeff


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Ok, OK!
It depends is the correct answer. Now have fun with that.

My mooring, depending on tide, is about 85' off the beach and in 50' of water. I could care a less about draft. In the PNW we scream and crash tack when the depth meter reads 25'.
Draft is and always will be a personal problem. How do I know ? Trust me.

Ski:
Here you go. Maybe this will refresh your memory:
*
Custom design projects by Bob Perry*
In no particular order:
25' Choate built grp Cutter for Dr. Rob
HEATHER 41' strip planked Two Tonner for John Buchan
IRISH ROSE 41' grp Two Tonner for Dr. Dennis Donahue
UNION JACK 24' Cadranell built cold molded Quarter Tonner for Mr. Bob Cadranell
50' Amazon built steel cutter for Dr. Buster family
NIGHT RUNNER 41' Lange built cold molded cutter for Mr. Doug Fryer
LOON 41' Brower built cold molded DE for Dr. Sandy Bill
61' Tyler built grp sloop for Mr. Stu Miller
60 alu cutter for Mr. Ralph Jersby
MARLIN 60' Folmers built alu cutter for Mr. Bjorn von Numers
YONI 50' Jespersen built alu cutter for Dr. Daryl Dalhgard
STARBUCK 56' Choate built grp sloop for Mr. Bill Clute
FOXFIRE 54' Choate built grp sloop for Mr. Dennis Howarth
CHRISTINE 75' Choate built grp power yacht for Mr. Mike Campbell
FREE RANGE CHICKEN 58' Westerly built grp Cruising sloop for Mr. Bruce Anderson
STEALTH CHICKEN 56' Westerly built IMS sloop for Mr. Bruce Anderson
CAPAZ 47' Westerly built grp ketch for the Plant family
Amazon 50' steel sloop for Dr. Don Dickerson
Amazon 50' steel sloop for Dr. Buster
JAKATAN 42' Jespersen built cold molded schooner for Mr. Jeff Hawkins
PACHENA 50' Jespersen built cold molded sloop for Mr. John Newton
AMATI 41' Schooner Creek built wood composite sloop for Paul and Lorrie Scott
ELESIUM 70' Choate built ULDB cruiser for Folvig family
Rosetta 29 Schooner Creek built cold molded runabout
FOXTROT 69' Jones-Goodel built grp Crusing Sloop for Mr. James Ray
TANGO 69' Philbrooks built grp sloop for Mr. James Ray
CATARI 63' Pacific Seacraft built ketch for Mr. Paul Serini
BULLETPROOF Betts built 43' carbon cutter for Mr. Lucky
MOBISLE 54' Westerly built composite Sloop for Mr. Dave Rutter
SATANI 116' Fautasi racing canoe for the AOA Village American Samoa
ICON 66' Martin built racing sloop for Mr. Dick Robbins
MERIDIAN 70' Miler built ULDB sloop for Mr. Chuck Schiff
FRANCIS LEE 61' NWSWBB DE daysailer for my friend Kim Bottles and family
LUCKY GAL 44' Betts built composite sloop for my friend Mr. Dave Cooper
KIYI 36 Miller built Maxii-trailerable sloop for Dr. Dick Philbrrick
Lobster Boat 36' Brower built cold moldced power boat for Mr. John Goodlad
INBOX 40' Schooner Creek built container cruising sloop for Mr. Bernie Blum
Fishboat 25' alu catamaran for a fisherman
LITTLE WING 54' Shaw Boats built grp catamaran for Mr. David Dow
Hawaii Tri 60 composite trimaran for Dr. Jeff Strange
ILLUSION 63' Howdy Bailey built alu cutter for Mr. Jeff Small
Baker Sled 70' Choate built ULDB cruising sloop for Mr. Bill Baker
APACHE WEST 49' FC ketch for Mr. William Powell Jr.
SUNFLOWER 43' grp DE cutter for Mr. Al Liggett
Knepper 26 Knepper built cold molded sloop for Mr. John Knepper
WILD HORSES 63' Betts built alu and composite cutter for Mr. Tullus Gordon
IBOLD 45 DE. Grp cutter foir Mr. Per Ibold
CONCERTO 43' Lyman-Morse built DE power yacht for Mr. Ken Sawyer
Bell 36 grp daysailer for Mr. Jeff Bell
TSUNAMI Anguilla 28 racing sloop for Dr. Carl Richardson
ECLIPSE 43' Lange built grp cutter for Dr. Pete MacClean
Lechler 47 47' Luke built alu ketch for Mr. Howard Lechler
LITTLE PALM ISLAND 40' Commuter lauych built by SCHOONER CREEK for LPIR
GEEZER 30 cold molded daysailer built by Roy Dunbar Boatworks for Roy Dunbar
9.5' custom dinghy for Mr. Paul Serini


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## FloridaBoy (May 4, 2014)

Mr Curmudgeon, Very clear ! A most excellent explanation! I do appreciate it. Now I will have something to say when folks ask about her. She does point about 10 degrees better with the board down. I did some sailing tests one day, out on the river. No problem to use it. Wind it up, let it down. Thanks again... kevin


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## FloridaBoy (May 4, 2014)

Cuttyhunk Pond! What a great picture! I wanna go there! kevin


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## Garbone (Jan 18, 2016)

I really prefer the keel type that is moving and affixed to a boat I am embarked on.

Bob, your hired....:captain:


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

I really like the swing keels like the new Pogo's have. They give you span, aspect ratio, low VCG and shoal draft all at once. Hard to beat that.


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## Panope (Jul 18, 2014)

bobperry said:


> I really like the swing keels like the new Pogo's have. They give you span, aspect ratio, low VCG and shoal draft all at once. Hard to beat that.


Agreed.

Bob, do you know if the Pogo swing keel boats are designed to be able to dry out (beach, careen) with the keel in the retracted position?

Steve


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Pano:
I don't know but given that the entire keel when retracted is still exposed I would doubt it. You would have to go to the Pogo sight and see what they promote. Maybe if the conditions were really benign it would work.


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

Minnewaska said:


> Cutty is a standard. Ironically, that is a Jeanneau 54 in your pic, but not us. It has to be one of the bareboat fleet out of Newport, because it's often right there. I suspect it's a private mooring, because the LOA is too long for the town field. Still, I've driven through the mooring field before, without trouble.
> 
> That little anchorage you've mentioned is interesting. Personally, I don't think I could sleep on anchor there,even if our draft allowed. As you note, the holding is so-so. We have a buddy that loves anchoring there. My biggest concern would be everyone anchored around me, swinging on different scopes a chain v rope, etc. I drop the hook outside everytime and only go with southerly winds.
> 
> View attachment 64458


The Town mooring in the photo is at the NW corner of the mooring field. The boat was from Newport and looked like a bareboat charter. The skipper apparently was trying to circle around and pick up this mooring, which appeared to be the last one available at that time.

Cuttyhunk is also one of our favorites. We try to pick up a rental piling just to the west in the photo and prefer the northerly row, which has about 4' at MLW. However, the pilings have been increasingly converted to private use, making it harder pick up a piling. We were on a Town mooring when I took that photo.

When a mooring is not available, my shallow draft comes in handy. We have anchored in 3-4' MLW to the north of the mooring field, where the floatplane "runway" used to be. As you implied, it isn't the best holding ground, but with our shallow draft, we don't have any near neighbor's to worry about. Our fallback position is to anchor outside, but we haven't had to do that yet. Besides it isn't convenient for lobster call at 5:10 PM.

The one and only time we've been towed in the 20 years we've owned our current Clearwater 35 we were on our way to Cuttyhunk. Unbeknowst to us, the New York Yacht Club got there first and when the SeaTow operator told me the big guys had taken over the outer anchorage and there were no moorings or slips in the inner harbor for a sailboat, I suggested he tow me into a shallow water area inside and I would "retract my landing gear". He then checked with the Harbormaster and got me a shallow water slip (3' MLW), which was very convenient for sorting out a motor problem the following morning.


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## Panope (Jul 18, 2014)

bobperry said:


> Pano:
> I don't know but given that the entire keel when retracted is still exposed I would doubt it. You would have to go to the Pogo sight and see what they promote. Maybe if the conditions were really benign it would work.


Bob, This article came up when I searched Pogo 30 beaching: New boat: Pogo 30

"Southern France is known for its sunny beaches, and the yacht designers at Finot-Conq must have had those destinations in mind when they designed the beachable Pogo 30. The 30-footer, a fractionally rigged racer-cruiser built by Chantier Naval Structures, has an optional hydraulically operated keel, an 8-foot ballasted fin that rotates back under the boat in shallow water giving the boat a 3-foot shoal draft. Cruisers can sail to a beach, raise the keel, and then "park" on optional aluminum beaching legs."










I guess the legs are necessary to keep the rudders clear of the bottom.

Steve


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## XSrcing (Aug 22, 2015)

That looks like a submarine, not a boat. But sure is fancy.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Very nice boat if you like that style. I could live with it for a while.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

hmmmm 25' to tack in.......

I'm usually 8-10', but like all things great and small "IT DEPENDS" upon where in the salish sea I am. Some places 25' is a good thing to tack, as a boat length later it will be 20, 15, 10 an 5' in 4 boat lengths.......as you hit a sand bar, rock called blakely or some other equal. Other places is can be 10-12' for a mile or so............

Mr Perry, 

Did ALL them boats have a 6'3" draft? 


Did not think so! LOLOL

This is a day for record books, I out did Mr Perry.........will have to start losing streak all over again tomorrow tho.....

Dang it. Will blame that fuzzy wombat character for this.......

Marty


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## paulk (Jun 2, 2000)

Panope said:


> Bob, This article came up when I searched Pogo 30 beaching: New boat: Pogo 30
> 
> "Southern France is known for its sunny beaches, and the yacht designers at Finot-Conq must have had those destinations in mind when they designed the beachable Pogo 30. The 30-footer, a fractionally rigged racer-cruiser built by Chantier Naval Structures, has an optional hydraulically operated keel, an 8-foot ballasted fin that rotates back under the boat in shallow water giving the boat a 3-foot shoal draft. Cruisers can sail to a beach, raise the keel, and then "park" on optional aluminum beaching legs."
> 
> ...


While the writer may be correct about the beaching legs, they are not likely to be very useful in the south of France. Tidal range in Nice is at most about one foot. Beaches in the south of France also tend to be rocky, not sandy. Planting a support in the small, smooth stones would be very tricky. The coast on the English Channel is where French skippers aim to use their "béquilles"-(literally "crutches") to hold their centerboarders upright. There's plenty of tide and lots of wide sandy beaches. (That's why D-Day was there.) The crowded harbors can also make finding a quiet beach quite attractive.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

No Marty, put down the bottle. I never said all of the boats had 6'3" draft. Your losing streak continues. Sorry.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Like too anchor outside channel at Cuttyhunk . Good spot directly across from entrance with plenty of water and buzzard bay chop doesn't get in there. Dinghy over to Cuttyhunk Fishing club on the other side or walk over the hill and feel like a president. Lots of keeper strippers there and a lefty deciever works great there. Use my Spey rod to get to third wave. Never disappoints.


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## Bleemus (Oct 13, 2015)

outbound said:


> Like too anchor outside channel at Cuttyhunk . Good spot directly across from entrance with plenty of water and buzzard bay chop doesn't get in there. Dinghy over to Cuttyhunk Fishing club on the other side or walk over the hill and feel like a president. Lots of keeper strippers there and a lefty deciever works great there. Use my Spey rod to get to third wave. Never disappoints.


I do remember the anchorage outside the harbor. Well protected from the sou'westerly and a short dinghy ride inside. Inside always seemed too claustrophobic to me. When things go bad in there it gets real ugly real quick.

Lyme disease is rampant there. Take precautions!

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## rckfd (Dec 3, 2015)

Cutty Hunk Claustrophobic!


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Great shot rock. When was it? We only go to the Elizabethans and Block mid week. Best is after school starts.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I guess we're on a bit of thread drift, but Cutty is a good popular destination where draft will limit your options. Even the closest moorings to shore in the outer harbor, are pretty snug with anything over 6ft. The town moorings in the inner harbor are LOA limited and the other options inside are draft limited. 

As for claustrophobia, I completely agree with the inner mooring field being was too up close and personal. Depending on your neighbors, that can be great or awful. It must be the most popular overnight stop along the entire New England coastline. You get all kinds. I'll avoid the stereotyping, but they are pretty clear.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Really like the set up Hannah2 has on his Boreal. Centerboard and two daggerboards way aft. Like the idea of dropping a daggerboard when running and surfing. Now need to change the sensitivity on the AP when doing that so use more juice. If big ones feel safer hand steering. Would think with that set up and daggerboard all the way down and centerboard all the way up even a wind vane would have no trouble.


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## Bleemus (Oct 13, 2015)

rckfd said:


> Cutty Hunk Claustrophobic!


That is funny! Only saw it like that once bringing a boat from Marblehead to Newport in October I think.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Bleemus said:


> That is funny! Only saw it like that once bringing a boat from Marblehead to Newport in October I think.


Cutty is a ghost town pre-Jul 4 and post Labor Day.

This past season, they didn't even have the outer moorings installed until mid-Jul. It seems to get later every year. Don't know why.


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## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> I guess we're on a bit of thread drift, but Cutty is a good popular destination where draft will limit your options. Even the closest moorings to shore in the outer harbor, are pretty snug with anything over 6ft. The town moorings in the inner harbor are LOA limited and the other options inside are draft limited.
> 
> As for claustrophobia, I completely agree with the inner mooring field being was too up close and personal. Depending on your neighbors, that can be great or awful. It must be the most popular overnight stop along the entire New England coastline. You get all kinds. I'll avoid the stereotyping, but they are pretty clear.


Draft and Cuttyhunk, perhaps isn't that much of a thread drift. Most places on the coast, draft matters little. A few decades ago, we cruised the Bahamas with 4' draft with friends in a boat, with 6' draft.

We had a great time in many harbors together. Then there were times when we went off on our own route, often sailing through the shallow but vast banks to secluded anchorages and beaches.

In the end, we both had a great time. We just saw a different Bahamas.

In Cuttyhunk, I can attest to the claustrophobic feeling in the mooring field. That could be great, at times.

The anchorage in the pond we use with our 4' draft is a different world. Of many days and nights spent on the hook - like this shot looking back at the mooring field - we felt we had the pond to ourselves.










Last time we were there, we had our daughter and her room mate (from college; both recently graduated) spend several days anchored in the pond. We explored the island in the cooler hours of the day and spent the hot mid day, swimming, dinghy sailing and paddle boarding and exploring the pond and beaches.

This shot was taken out in the anchorage as the sun sets(look closely you can see another shoal draft boat anchored to windward- rare).

The Cuttyhunk Raw Bar boat delivers to shoal draft boats.  We ordered a few dozen Cuttyhunk Oysters while we were there. My daughter and I love oysters(she's in the Maine flannel). The Cuttyhunk's are some the best we've tasted! And they had fresh scallops that were cooked up.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Tom on your way down check out duxbury. Bottom is mud. Oysters and clams with no grit ever. Area has no industry so water clean. Other then pnw best shell fish on east coast imho.


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## Bleemus (Oct 13, 2015)

outbound said:


> Tom on your way down check out duxbury. Bottom is mud. Oysters and clams with no grit ever. Area has no industry so water clean. Other then pnw best shell fish on east coast imho.


Wellfleet oysters aren't too shabby either . . .


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## hannah2 (Nov 15, 2012)

Wife and I had a change of plans and we are not sailing to New Zealand this season. Will instead sail from Panama to New Brunswick Canada. Leaving Panama in late April or early May. You all get the juices flowing talking about Cutty. Cutty has enough tide so we can beach the damn boat if it is a little too crowded. Maybe see some of you there. We are really excited to sail the waters where we grew up sailing but have not been back much over the last 40 years.

Hey outbound I didn't know you were a fly fishing "stripa" fisherman. Been doing that since I was 12. Remember in the 1960's just my uncle and me walking the Brewster flats for miles never seeing another fisherman with a fly rod. Now a little different but still one of my favorite things to do in life.

Cheers


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Lefty Kroh's is one of my heroes. When get up here get rid of the Cuban yo yo's. Have extra rods so you just need to bring Tracy. Cheryl got the bug big time and also loves to fish.


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## hannah2 (Nov 15, 2012)

Sounds good, I carry 6 fly rods on board so no worry, everything from a 15 wt with Billy Pate marlin reel to two 8 wts for bones and jacks in Panama. 

It would be fun to sail up the coast with you both. And fun to meet others on this board. 

Outbound where do you keep your boat in summer? Marian?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

TomMaine said:


> ....The Cuttyhunk Raw Bar boat delivers to shoal draft boats.  ....


Any boat with cash for that matter. 

I love the raw bar boat. It makes it outside after fixing everyone up inside, but you can order during the day and have them plan a delivery. Pretty sure they'll also deliver a cooked lobster if you stop by earlier during the day. The fella who collects the private outside mooring field (northern section), will also bring you cooked lobster, if you ask. I don't think the town mooring tenders will do so. Of course, making it to the town dock by 5:30 to fetch your own isn't a big deal.

Speaking of anchoring outside, it used to be real treat to see Mel Dorr land his plane on the beach in front of his house, right next to the outside mooring field. I know he's very old now and suspect he's not flying anymore. I haven't seen the plane in a few years, nor his old boat at his dock. I even wonder if he sold the place.


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## rckfd (Dec 3, 2015)

October overcrowding or waiting for the green flash


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

2Gringos said:


> Well, would depend on your definition of getting by 'just fine'. A 75" draft here would keep you out of more than half the marinas, and severely limit where you could sail and anchor. There are huge areas where you just can't go. And thousands of uncharted coral heads shallower than 75" in the areas where you _can_.


Allen Farrell said he counted 209 anchorages on the East side of Lasqueti where you could hang out if you could dry out, but was off limits to deep single keelers .I have enjoyed some, especially in storms. People circumnavigating in my boats have told me that the entire NE coast of Australia is river mouths ,where, if you draw less than 5 feet , and can dry out, you are up a river ,calm as can be, while the deep single keelers are out in the ocean swell. They found similar conditions in South Africa and Hawaii.

Don't expect those who don't cruise much to comprehend this. That is one of the problems with letting your priorities be designed by those who don't have much cruising experience.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Boy, talk about thread drift!

oh well, sorry Bob, by the time you posted, the Rose wine from the Duro region in France was open! pretty good stuff. have not found one yet from Portugal. Hopefully soon, keep checking at PCC, they have a nice variety that is unfortunately seasonal, or what they can find, then gone.....

Brent, what part of best keel answer is :IT DEPENDS" do you not understand? like steel vs fiberglass, sometimes steel is better, sometimes steel, sometimes aluminum......keels, sometimes dual keels, centerboard, deep vs shoal keel......all have plus and minus's.

Marty


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## Yamsailor (Jun 7, 2006)

Does anyone know of any reference material that lists all the different keel types along with their benefits and problems? That would be really useful. Maybe Bob Perry knows of a book or reference?


Thanks


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Marty: 
Wash State makes some pretty good Roses.

Don't befuddle BS with actual facts or common sense. I can tell you from experience he lives in his own. alternative reality. Galaxy even.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Yam:
Maybe you should take a look at my book YACHT DESIGN ACCORDING TO PERRY. I believe I go into various keel types in the book.

But Marty is 100% correct,* it depends!*

For instance, on my four carbon fiber cutter project the client wanted a "full keel". I removed as much of the keel as possible while still convincing the client that it was a full keel. I hate the term "modified full keel" but in this case I think it really fits.



Without being too cute I'd say, there are as many "perfect" keels as there are clients. It depends on lots of factors.


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## Yamsailor (Jun 7, 2006)

Thanks Bob! Is a keel chosen a function of the type if rig and size of the sails or can any keel type be designed for any type of rig/sail size?


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## Bleemus (Oct 13, 2015)

Brent Swain said:


> the entire NE coast of Australia is river mouths ,where, if you draw less than 5 feet , and can dry out, you are up a river ,calm as can be, while the deep single keelers are out in the ocean swell.


This is entirely untrue. I spent almost a year between Cairns and Cape York. Plenty of places for us drawing 7 feet with the board up. Anchored just inside the reef you could be out of sight of land and not rolling at all.

The rivers were great for one thing. You ride your RIB with a 40hp Yamaha and go up those rivers to catch the elusive Barramundi. An exquisite fish.

Also, the rivers don't dry out and the tides are pretty small for drying out unless you draw three feet. Facepalm.

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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

blt2ski said:


> Boy, talk about thread drift!
> 
> oh well, sorry Bob, by the time you posted, the Rose wine from the Duro region in France was open! pretty good stuff. have not found one yet from Portugal. Hopefully soon, keep checking at PCC, they have a nice variety that is unfortunately seasonal, or what they can find, then gone.....
> 
> ...


I couldn't agree more. For a mass produced boat, left in a marina 95% of the time, only used weekends and the odd summer vacation, not lived aboard nor cruised very far off the beaten path, plastic is ideal. Aluminium makes super cabin top, masts , and is the best hatch material ever. For offshore voyaging, especially in remote areas, where help is not available if you screwup or if fate screws you up , steel is far superior. For the one off backyard boat, steel is far superior. I design and build for the latter.
Yes , a deep single keel is best for racing.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

outbound said:


> Damn it's that two inches that keeps getting me in trouble my whole life through.


While it wont show its advantage in computer calculations, a bit shallower draft can have huge advantage in the reality of cruising something you don't fully appreciate if you don't cruise much. The advantage is all out of porportion to any microscopic improvement in sailing performance.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Yamo:
Not sure I'd go quite that far but almost. When I get a new design commission I try to imagine the finished boat as a whole with all the components in place. The owner may hav hs own dock where the depth is 10' at low tide. OK, fine, that means I can go 9' draft. If the client wants a schooner rig that tells me that he is not after an extremely close winded boat, i.e. the schooner rig is not very close winded. So I have the option of doing a longer, lower aspect ratio keel that will work fine with the schooner rig. Think of it as the holistic approach to boat design. You would not put a 10' draft fin and bulb keel on a 40' gaff ketch. Neither would you put a long chord low aspect ratio keel on a TP 52. There has to be some symbiosis. 

Does that make sense?


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Brent a well designed good performing ocean boat gives great joy. Beyond increasing VMG just the joy of of sailing well with all elements in harmony release my and many others endorphins. 

It's a shame you and your clients don't understand that simple pleasure. I love doing passages on a good boat as do many others. Being on a poorly performing slug would not be enjoyable. 

I was making a joke when I was referring to the two inches. Being humorless it's not surprising you would try to twist that post.

I would go out of my mind doing a passage on one of your boats. The limited LWL with huge overhangs. Hull.shape totally limited by building technique not allowing any change to improve performance. The poor SA to displacement ratio. The excessive wetted surface of bilge keels. Doubt they are NASA foils. The poor diagonals. The poor gyradius given a small all steel boat. Bet my prior PSC 34 with a lower LWL or my prior T37 with a LOD within a foot of your 36 would horizon your 36' in the real world. BTW people do cruise these boats full time and have great passages. More BS from BS.

For the hundredth time post a sailing polar. Post a GZ curve. Post a log like Bob is doing showing his Baba does just fine.


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## Curious Sailor (Dec 6, 2015)

Awesome pics Bobperry!


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

outbound said:


> Brent a well designed good performing ocean boat gives great joy. Beyond increasing VMG just the joy of of sailing well with all elements in harmony release my and many others endorphins.
> 
> It's a shame you and your clients don't understand that simple pleasure. I love doing passages on a good boat as do many others. Being on a poorly performing slug would not be enjoyable.
> 
> ...


Interesting seeing how many misconceptions about my boats your posts are based on. Perhaps you should educate your self ( by visiting the origami boat site) before commenting on something you so obviously know so little about.
There you will find a wide variety of hull shapes using origami methods. Any hard chine hull shape can be built using origami methods, exactly the same shape as the framed version.
My 36 is 35 ft 5 inches on deck, with a waterline of 31 ft 6 inches
So that leaves about 4 feet of the "Huge overhangs " you talk about . How does that compare to the "Huge overhangs " on your boat? ( WL 31 ft 0 inches) Anyone here can look that up, to determine your credibility. A heavily loaded 36 which can consistently make it from BC to Hawaii in a couple of weeks is definitely not a "poor performing slug." I don't believe your boat would do any better. They go to windward far better than the Hunters one of my clients used to charter. 
More lies and misinformation from Outbound .

The single keel on my 36 uses one 8 ft by12 ft piece of 1/4 inch plate ,and is the same wetted surface as many longer fin keels on Perry designs, and is far less wetted surface than that on his full length keels, definitely less than that on a Tayana 37. This is the same plate as I use on twin keels , and thus the same wetted surface . 
More lies and misinformation from Outbound!
I'm sure your boat sails just fine , until you hit a half sunken container in the night ,or experience the Sleavin family experience. Then I and my clients prefer not to be so dependent on sheer luck.( a dependence which is one definition of bad seamanship)


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

This is from sailboat data. As in so many places it shows you are not factually correct. Given as Smack, Bob and so many people have shown on this forum as well as others you lie like a rug don't you understand no one gives your stories any credence. Therefore, suggest you post some actual data. Such as a sailing polar and a GZ curve generated by someone with some understanding of naval architecture and the laws of physics.
Outbound 44/46
Hull Type: Fin w/spade rudder	Rig Type: Masthead Sloop
LOA: 44.75' / 13.64m	LWL: 40.25' / 12.27m
Beam: 13.50' / 4.11m	Listed SA: 1083 ft2 / 100.61 m2
Draft (max.) 6.50' / 1.98m	Draft (min.) 5.50' / 1.68m
Displacement: 28000 lbs./ 12701 kgs.	Ballast: 10000 lbs. / 4536 kgs.
Sail Area/Disp.1: 18.87	Bal./Disp.: 35.71%	Disp./Len.: 191.70
Designer: Carl Schumacher
Builder: Outbound Yachts
Construction: FG	Bal. type: Lead
First Built: 2001	Last Built: # Built: 50
AUXILIARY POWER (orig. equip.)
Make: Yanmar	Model: 4JH4-TE
Type: Diesel	HP: 75
TANKS
Water: 200 gals. / 757 ltrs.	Fuel:
To say hull shape is not limited by your building technique is absurd. Until you post some factual data not just stories it is useless to continue this discussion. BTW go to the builders sight. I believe both GZ curve and sailing polar are there for outbound as they are for all the boats the people reading this thread on their builders sites. Why do you continue to not post any factual information? Is it because it won't support your diatribes.
So far
From Bleemus we have hard evidence steel boats require a continuing battle against rust and corrosion.
From multiple sources well designed and executed "plastic" boats are much tougher and durable than you them credit. 
Any basic book concerning naval architecture points out the multiple difficulties posed by a heavy steel hull and steel top hamper. Admitted this is mitigated as size increases to eventually not be relevant but in a 36'LOA boat simple laws of physics makes it relevent. So yes compared to designs in wood, glass, Al or CF your boats are slow.
Given you won't post any data just stories can you post a PHRF number that would allow a comparison ? 
I have never said steel boats are bad. There are many truly wonderful, good performing, beautiful steel boats. Nor have I ever said your boats are bad. Rather I have pointed out your statements are often objectionable and frequently incorrect.
Do you have enough math skills to calculate my overhangs. Give you a hint the LWL is not 31'.


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## Bleemus (Oct 13, 2015)

Sailed a few Schumacher designs and really liked them but have never sailed an Outbound. Looks like fun. Not being familiar with the design save me a bit of Googling. What is the difference of one foot between max an min draft? 


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Two sisterships buddy boated to anagada. Was upwind. Both good sailors. Shoal was a small bit latter. Told on passage no real difference as you try not to beat. Still given the chord and design of the keels is the same it seems the only difference is length so not surprising the shoal suffers a wee bit C/W standard upwind. I have the 6.5'.i think most are 6.5. May go home next year by way of the Bahamas. Then it maybe limiting but so far happy camper. 
The keel is laid up as part of the hull. Then they bolt half a bulb to either side. Then they do more lay up to encapsulate even that. The bottom of the keel cavity is antimony lead. Then they pour epoxy over that. No keel bolts, impervious bilge. Need long arms to mess with bilge pumps.


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## Bleemus (Oct 13, 2015)

Ahhh. So a shoal draft design as opposed to some sort of short centerboard. I need to put this wine down as I was thinking it was odd to have a one foot centerboard. LOL


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Been thinking about BSs statements about bilge keels. Accept that in some very limited circumstances they make great sense. For instance Brits with a large tidal gradient and shingle bottom. But for most of us think there are much better choices.
Issues are:
If you sailing in areas with mud bottoms bilge keels limit your options. Best time to get free is in the seconds you are running aground. With other keels you can bear off. Back winding the sails or even the sudden turn itself is often sufficient to reduce draft and you are free. Such a turn increases the draft of bilge keel boat as heel increases.
Similarly, once you are aground reducing draft by attaching an anchor to a halyard and setting it a distance athwart ships is not an option for the bilge boat. 
Your options to kedge off are also limited. Whereas, with other keel designs you can set the kedge to both reduce draft and pull you to safer waters with two keels it will be hard to pull in any direction other than straight forward or aft.
Then again as you head south were there is little tidal range with the bilge keeler you may be there for quite awhile. One would particularly worry if moon phase is causing decreasing tidal range.
Of course in many places there is a layer of soft, soupy, loose mud of several feet above the true bottom. Places chewed up by frequent anchoring like block or much of the Cheasepeake. Here the suction that causes, particularly if the boat sinks to rest on its canoe body may make it hard to get free.
In short other than areas where there is a firm bottom and good tidal range other keels may offer both better performance and peace of mind. If the intention is the dry out or to gunk hole a true centerboard such as on Hannah2 s Boreal. Not burdened by the weight of steel many Al boats can have excellent avs but still get by internal ballast unlike the situation as in BS boats where it is in the keels. Or to just generally cruise a fin of moderate draft and aspect may be the best choice. 
Of course the canting keels or very deep high aspect fins of the racers meet other needs as do the various fixed keel shoal designs.


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## Curious Sailor (Dec 6, 2015)

Bleemus said:


> Ahhh. So a shoal draft design as opposed to some sort of short centerboard. I need to put this wine down as I was thinking it was odd to have a one foot centerboard. LOL
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Lol... Don't put the wine down because I'll pick it up.. :devil


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## harmonic (Sep 10, 2013)

I like any keel that is welded on it can be steel or aluminium im not fussy,keel bolts give me the shivers,old wooden boat moored behind me had its keel drop off,bolts had corroded.


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