# Captained Charter Market Research



## Yamsailor

Hi Folks,

I would like to ask everyone out there their opinion.

Let us say you were looking for a Captained charter for four people. A boat with 3-cabins, 2 head (1 cabin for the captain). This charter would be either in the Chesapeake Bay or the Caribbean. Is a 42 foot sailboat big enough to satisfy you needs and purchase the charter or do you think a bigger boat (say 45-57 feet) is necessary?

I appreciate any feedback any and all of you will provide.

Wishing everyone a Happy and Healthy New Year.

Thanks
Andrew


----------



## FarCry

From the viewpoint of a person in the Caribbean who does exactly what you ask, there just isn't enough difference between 3 cabin boats in the 40'-55' range to make any meaningful difference for a week long charter. Typically the larger boats will have more amenities, icemakers, generators etc. Of course the heads and beds will be bigger but most folks don't spend that much time in their cabin down here. The comfort and general boat speed will be better on larger boats when compared to smaller but in my area the distances between destinations doesn't justify the need for an extra knot or two. If true square footage per person is really an important factor then a 40'ish cat will win out...

With my comments in mind, I've been on charters that a cruise ship wouldn't be adequate and others that would be happy with a large group sprawled all over a 30' vessel. It really comes down to the comfort requirements of your group, the budget and boat availability.


----------



## Yamsailor

Thank you for your opinion FarCry--I appreciate it. From what you are saying i am i inferring you think there are enough people out there who would purchase a Captained charter for a group of four on a 42 foot 3 cabin 2-head boat.


----------



## FarCry

If you all get along, are sailors, boaters, etc., yes I think any 3- cabin boat will work.


----------



## capta

It would also depend on where you were chartering, and when.
In the VI distances are very short; it's only 40 miles from Virgin Gorda Sound to Charlotte Amalie and mostly 'inside' sailing.
Down island, 40 miles is a short sail and you have to cross the channels between the islands, which can be a bit rough at times. Unless you have a spacious cockpit it wouldn't be a lot of fun to cram 5 people into a tiny cockpit for 4 to 5 hours across the channels, and I don't think too many folks want to spend the trip below.
So down island you might want a bigger, speedier and more comfortable boat.
I'm not sure who you are going to have do the cooking, but if it's the passengers, then you are going to want to make sure the galley is suitable to cook for 5.
Most importantly of all IMO is a boat with excellent ventilation. Some of the 'charter' configuration layouts have 2 cabins aft with terrible ventilation and no headroom to stand up in them. 
Another option you may wish to consider and which might afford you a larger boat for less, would be renting a bareboat with a skipper for the week.


----------



## Yamsailor

Hi CaptA, I am going to be the Skipper. I am doing market research for myself and a possible business for when I retire.

Thank you for your thoughts.


----------



## miatapaul

Well it seems to be that people want a bigger and bigger boat, with more amenities. Will you have a 40 foot inflatable slide? Will you have 4 jet skies available? How many servers will you have to serve dinner? That seems to be the part of the market that is growing. 









By the way I would be happy on a small boat, but not a lot would be. Will you have a cook as well? Lots of folks do this as having a couple one does the captain thing, while the other does the cooking and what not. I have thought this might make a cool retirement gig, but seems to be expectations are going up and up.


----------



## Faster

We have joined friends for a couple of weeks in the eastern Caribbean on their Bene 36.7 - arguably one of the smallest three cabin boats you may find.

We've joined with just us two, but also on different occasions with our son and his wife, and also with another pair of friends. This put six total living/sleeping on the boat for that time. It worked, but, I believe, only because all participants were experienced boaters used to living on a boat. Our hosts commented that having the 4 of us on board was less problematic and less 'cramped' than having two non-sailing relatives join them for the same time frame.

I mention this only because it would seem to me that as the skipper on a charter boat/business you're quite likely to get customers that are not really boaters. I think then that the larger boat would be better suited, but I also think that some of those types of customers are not going to do well with the whole boating scene.. - 'what? I can't have a 20 minute shower?' - 'Can't use my hair dryer?' until you get to the 'near ship' size...


----------



## Yamsailor

Faster you make some good points.

The marketing strategy will be geared toward adventurers so they are not expecting cruise-ship type comfort. That being said, the boat will have a generator, inverter, air conditioning/heat.

Thanks!


----------



## Yamsailor

..Any other input?...anyone?


----------



## tdw

Yamsailor said:


> ..Any other input?...anyone?


My thought would be that it depends on the boat and its layout. There are 40' cats I can think of that would be quite suitable while others would be cramped even without the skipper. Nonetheless for a skippered charter bigger has got to be better.

I'm presuming you are thinking of your current boat ... what is she ?


----------



## Yamsailor

tdw said:


> My thought would be that it depends on the boat and its layout. There are 40' cats I can think of that would be quite suitable while others would be cramped even without the skipper. Nonetheless for a skippered charter bigger has got to be better.
> 
> I'm presuming you are thinking of your current boat ... what is she ?


I am currently boat-less (I do have experience in the industry). I am looking to purchase one within a year or two. 42-45 foot--preferably Mono. 3 Cabin, 2 Head. Probably going to purchase new since I am going to use it professionally.


----------



## tdw

Yamsailor said:


> I am currently boat-less (I do have experience in the industry). I am looking to purchase one within a year or two. 42-45 foot--preferably Mono. 3 Cabin, 2 Head. Probably going to purchase new since I am going to use it professionally.


My whoops. From your Avatar I presumed you had a cat.

Have to say that if I were to be going chartering (skippered or no, charterer or charteree) I'd go cat. Of course it may well depend on the area you are going to be in but for charter a cat simply seems to make more sense.


----------



## Yamsailor

ok. Thanks



tdw said:


> My whoops. From your Avatar I presumed you had a cat.
> 
> Have to say that if I were to be going chartering (skippered or no, charterer or charteree) I'd go cat. Of course it may well depend on the area you are going to be in but for charter a cat simply seems to make more sense.


----------



## xort

Size matters, but perhaps not as you are thinking.
Will the cockpit be plenty big enough for everyone and room for sail handling as well?
Will the salon be big enough to seat everyone comfortably in the evening while at the same time making a meal?
Will the water and holding tanks be big enough for everybody?
Will there be enough storage for EVERYTHING you carry plus some free space for 4 guests to store everything they bring?

I would either restrict to ONE couple or go to a 50'er.


----------



## tdw

Our current 40'er mono has two heads and two comfortable cabins (excluding saloon) with a reasonable sized cockpit (single wheel, somewhat old school). Nonetheless our rule is six for day sailing, four overnight. I appreciate that newer monos often have three sleeping cabins and much more voluminous cockpits but even so six people long term on a 40'er gives me the cold shivers. Have to be at least 50' for what you are thinking of. 

Fast said it earlier "We've joined with just us two, but also on different occasions with our son and his wife, and also with another pair of friends. This put six total living/sleeping on the boat for that time. It worked, but, I believe, only because all participants were experienced boaters used to living on a boat. Our hosts commented that having the 4 of us on board was less problematic and less 'cramped' than having two non-sailing relatives join them for the same time frame." 

Non boaters simply have little idea what it means to live on board and one would have to presume that most charter parties would be predominanly non boaters.


----------



## miatapaul

tdw said:


> Our current 40'er mono has two heads and two comfortable cabins (excluding saloon) with a reasonable sized cockpit (single wheel, somewhat old school). Nonetheless our rule is six for day sailing, four overnight. I appreciate that newer monos often have three sleeping cabins and much more voluminous cockpits but even so six people long term on a 40'er gives me the cold shivers. Have to be at least 50' for what you are thinking of.
> 
> Fast said it earlier "We've joined with just us two, but also on different occasions with our son and his wife, and also with another pair of friends. This put six total living/sleeping on the boat for that time. It worked, but, I believe, only because all participants were experienced boaters used to living on a boat. Our hosts commented that having the 4 of us on board was less problematic and less 'cramped' than having two non-sailing relatives join them for the same time frame."
> 
> Non boaters simply have little idea what it means to live on board and one would have to presume that most charter parties would be predominanly non boaters.


Yup, especially with folks you don't know and non boaters.


----------



## Uricanejack

I have nurtured a vaguely similar dream for years.
The more I looked into it. Its not realistic. There are people who make it work.
The bottom line really is can you afford the boat. 

Without having to rely on income generated by the boat to pay for the boat.

The boat charter market is to full of companies who get someone else to by the boat and make the payments, While they act as agents, take their cut, and make profit.
The boat owner offsets some but not all of his costs.
Skipper's can be found 10 a penny, The Charter companies all have lots on their books and the pay is minimal.

Unless the boat is really high end.

Look at the cost of chartering a 45ft boat for a week . It just is not high enough. when multiplied by the number of weeks in the season. 

The Caribbean has a longer season, so it may be a bit more viable there.

My personal approach would be instructing rather than charter skipper. its not as high end. At this time I have a cheaper boat I sail myself. And fund as a regular working stiff. 
If I do get back into instructing, I would most likely do it through a sailing school or charter company rather than trying to set up my own small operation.

There are small operators with low overheads who make it work. Most have a nitch of their own.

If you do come up with a workable plan let me know. I really would be interested.


----------



## chuck5499

Not sure what you are looking for but seems to learn a bit about sailing and all that goes along with it as well as having a great time I would suggest the BVIs - and look at Extasea charters 

exta-sea.com

I know Micheal and Leslie and met them when we were sailing from Honduras to Panama with a couple of other South African boats and all 4 of us sailed to the San Blas and hung out for a year give or take and what great fun that was. And then we hooked up with them again as they headed to Cuba and we went to Colombia and then Jamaica and sailed from St Lucia to Trinidad and hung out with for a while to wait out hurricane season. They sailed across the Atlantic from South Africa and really know how to sail and are incredible teachers and more patient than I would ever be. 

They have a great cat -- AND NO I don't get anything out of this but I really know Michael and Leslie and highly recommend them and Exta-Sea. 

By the way one nice thing about the BVIs is the reef. It can be blowing like snot and you can still sail without huge seas. Learn a lot about how to handle the big winds without dealing with big seas at the same time. 

Good luck with your search.


----------



## Minnewaska

Yamsailor said:


> .....I would like to ask everyone out there their opinion.....


As I understand the thread, you're not looking to charter a boat, you're looking to go into business by buying a boat and offering it as a crewed charter vessel.

As a one boat operation, that's pretty tough to make the math work. The charter companies, who you will compete against, provide economies of scale in marketing, back office and their own maintenance staff. Having to do it all yourself, and pay as you go to keep the boat operational, is going to be substantially more expensive.

Think about your genset going out and you have a charter arriving in 24hrs. You're going to pay big to fix it now, if you even can. I never make it though a season, without some big surprise and we pamper our boat compared to it being chartered.

You also have to really process your commitment to this. You are going to be the hired help on your own boat, sleep in the smallest cabin, accommodate others schedules and wants and needs. It's been said in many avocations......... converting your love of a hobby/sport into a business is the best way to ruin the experience. You don't get to wake up and say, I don't feel like it today. Instead you are obligated to make yourself and everyone around you love the idea today.

Of course, what you're contemplating is done. The formula often seems to be a crew of two, one is the sailor/mechanic and the other is a top notch chef. I'm sure it's a slow start, so be sure you have enough resources to get by the lean periods at first.


----------



## Yamsailor

OK--Let me give you all more information. I am affiliated with a sailing school, in fact I am the senior instructor. I have been teaching sailing for over 10 years and running charters both through this sailing school and other operations. In a nut shell, we are looking at potential expansion as our business appears to be slowly growing. We have a particular market. The demand is there for us. The boat will be in the USA during the summer and in the caribbean during the winter. Marketing is not an issue and I am fairly well versed with the costs. I am trying to cut costs down without compromising client expectations. For me, A 42 foot hull length (Not LOA) with a three cabin two head arrangement works well with 5 people (me and and up to four guests). Most of our clientele are adventurers. That being said, I need to meet client expectations, not mine.


----------



## Minnewaska

That's clearer. Good to hear that you know what you'll be getting yourself into. I've chartered boats of that size with between 4 and 6 people. Very easy. Last winter, we bareboated a 44 Jeanneau for two couple, with three cabins. One of the cabins went unused, so there would have been plenty of room for a skipper. Generally, the amount of room for the four of us was luxurious. 

Here's the rub. The two aft cabins were side by side, somewhat small and cramped overhead by the cockpit. The forward cabin had a nice berth and private bath. IOW, the one unique cabin was the nicest, so how do the guest decide who stays where. 

Otherwise, sounds like you have a plan. Good luck.


----------



## Uricanejack

You probably already know more than I do about the realities of the business. And Probably more than most on these forum's
I would be interested in your observations. General ideas, and if you get it up and running, how it works out. 

From my personal observations and perspective. Instructing is more viable than chartering. Your season is longer. and you can sell places rather than charters.
I doubt you will get rich, but keeping yourself in beer money after retirement should be possible.

A nice new 42ft boat would be at the higher end of the sailing school market. three cabins would work well. Privacy for yourself. 
Are you planning to move away from instructing towards a more charter captain setup. with guests rather than students. 

Most of the boats I instructed on were smaller between 30ft and 40ft. Only had the fore cabin, main saloon and quarter berth with instructor and 4 students.

If you have a relationship with a school already, your most of the way there.
Or would your plan be to operate entirely by yourself?

My thoughts were if sticking with the sailing school, they took care of marketing, booking. etc. They take a big piece of the action but provide much more action and much more reliably.

When I instructed. It was a part time job, which provided the opportunity to sail much nicer boats than I could afford. Also provided the opportunity to charter a boat at a very cheep rate. It was never a means of making a living for me. Life got in the way and I just didn't have the time. As I near retirement I am contemplating taking it up again. 

One of my most enjoyable trips. 
Was on a Maple Leaf 42. 2 cabins 2 Heads. It was an advanced course. West coast Vancouver Island. 2 instructors and 5 or 6 students. (cant remember) I tagged along as last minute a student in a vacant bunk when the trip didn't sell out. Most of us went for the adventure trip. The West Coast of the Island was a unusual trip. The adventure was more of a draw than the course. 
We were also interested in being involved in the sailing rather than just along for the ride with drinks.

For me personally an adventure would be more of an attraction than a regular crewed or skippered charter.
But I would want to go some where adventurous.

What surprised me, was how difficult it was to fill. This may be out of date or just a different market. The bread and butter money maker. was the basic beginner sailing course. usually sold out.

Good luck with your plan. I hope it works out.


----------



## Minnewaska

For what it's worth, there is a bareboat charter company up here that sends a couple of their fleet to the BVI in the winter. Imagine me walking the doc on Tortola and seeing a boat that I had just seen a few months earlier in RI. They're stand out to me, because they happen to be the same make/model as ours. Anyway, it appears they bolt their boats onto Horizon charters in BVI, as I've since seen them listed in Horizon's inventory. 

I really do not know what relationship there is between the two bareboat companies, it could be closer than it appears. Nevertheless, I can see the advantages of using a local base in the Caribbean, that would have ample maintenance resources to keep you on the water. Just getting your painkiller topped off can take forever. I can't imagine what it would be like down there to arrange speedy mechanical help, for a charter delaying issue, if one didn't have their own staff. For that matter, how would one ever arrange a chase boat, if the problem occurred mid-charter. We all deal with boat issues, but paying guests are less forgiving.


----------



## Yamsailor

I am not planning on this being my main source of income. It is a secondary business for me and eventually a retirement gig. Still, it requires a lot of work and attention to detail. One does not enter this business unless you love it.

With regards to Captained charters it really depends on the situation. I think if you are in the right location, 3-hour tours on a sailboat can do relatively quite well on the east coast of the USA. Multi-night charters probably do not do as well on the east coast of the usa; They do much better in the Caribbean. There is ALOT of competition in the USVI/BVI but that is not necessarily a negative.

Sailing instruction can do well IF there is enough demand. I am not sure about the future demand for sailing instruction after the last of the baby boomers turn 60.



Uricanejack said:


> You probably already know more than I do about the realities of the business. And Probably more than most on these forum's
> I would be interested in your observations. General ideas, and if you get it up and running, how it works out.
> 
> From my personal observations and perspective. Instructing is more viable than chartering. Your season is longer. and you can sell places rather than charters.
> I doubt you will get rich, but keeping yourself in beer money after retirement should be possible.
> 
> A nice new 42ft boat would be at the higher end of the sailing school market. three cabins would work well. Privacy for yourself.
> Are you planning to move away from instructing towards a more charter captain setup. with guests rather than students.
> 
> Most of the boats I instructed on were smaller between 30ft and 40ft. Only had the fore cabin, main saloon and quarter berth with instructor and 4 students.
> 
> If you have a relationship with a school already, your most of the way there.
> Or would your plan be to operate entirely by yourself?
> 
> My thoughts were if sticking with the sailing school, they took care of marketing, booking. etc. They take a big piece of the action but provide much more action and much more reliably.
> 
> When I instructed. It was a part time job, which provided the opportunity to sail much nicer boats than I could afford. Also provided the opportunity to charter a boat at a very cheep rate. It was never a means of making a living for me. Life got in the way and I just didn't have the time. As I near retirement I am contemplating taking it up again.
> 
> One of my most enjoyable trips.
> Was on a Maple Leaf 42. 2 cabins 2 Heads. It was an advanced course. West coast Vancouver Island. 2 instructors and 5 or 6 students. (cant remember) I tagged along as last minute a student in a vacant bunk when the trip didn't sell out. Most of us went for the adventure trip. The West Coast of the Island was a unusual trip. The adventure was more of a draw than the course.
> We were also interested in being involved in the sailing rather than just along for the ride with drinks.
> 
> For me personally an adventure would be more of an attraction than a regular crewed or skippered charter.
> But I would want to go some where adventurous.
> 
> What surprised me, was how difficult it was to fill. This may be out of date or just a different market. The bread and butter money maker. was the basic beginner sailing course. usually sold out.
> 
> Good luck with your plan. I hope it works out.


----------



## capecodda

IMHO, if the market is instruction with adventurous students that want to come south in the winter, yea, might work. 

If the market is dudes who want to go on a sailing vacation with little or no experience, you want something 50-60 foot in a monohull, or equally square foot living space multi with ensuite heads, higher prices, a cook, etc. 

Good luck, any business proposition in our hobby is a tough one, but sounds like you know what your are getting into!


----------



## Yamsailor

I agree with you Capecodda. If there is enough of the former market as you described, then it can work. I think the latter market as you described it is a relatively small market because the number of "dudes who want to go on a sailing vacation with little or no experience" who can afford to pay for the amenities you describe are few and far between. Also I think operations such as Sunsail, Moorings, Horizon, and some exclusive high end operations probably have that market.



capecodda said:


> IMHO, if the market is instruction with adventurous students that want to come south in the winter, yea, might work.
> 
> If the market is dudes who want to go on a sailing vacation with little or no experience, you want something 50-60 foot in a monohull, or equally square foot living space multi with ensuite heads, higher prices, a cook, etc.
> 
> Good luck, any business proposition in our hobby is a tough one, but sounds like you know what your are getting into!


----------



## Uricanejack

Yamsailor said:


> I am not planning on this being my main source of income. It is a secondary business for me and eventually a retirement gig. Still, it requires a lot of work and attention to detail. One does not enter this business unless you love it.
> 
> With regards to Captained charters it really depends on the situation. I think if you are in the right location, 3-hour tours on a sailboat can do relatively quite well on the east coast of the USA. Multi-night charters probably do not do as well on the east coast of the usa; They do much better in the Caribbean. There is ALOT of competition in the USVI/BVI but that is not necessarily a negative.
> 
> Sailing instruction can do well IF there is enough demand. I am not sure about the future demand for sailing instruction after the last of the baby boomers turn 60.


I think you are bang on there, you have to love it. You will be rewarded by enjoyment more than by remuneration. 
BVI and USVI market research already done. where there is competition there is business.
There's a local sailor here who has been doing the 3 hour tour for years on an nice old gaffer. I see him out on the water quite often. It works for him and his boat.

As a secondary business or income it's likely to work. I think you are right, it will take a lot of work. Right now to much for me. When I retire, I will need something to do.

To be small and successful against the big players you need something to set you apart.


----------



## hellosailor

Two things I don't grasp.

If the new venture will be "secondary" income, doesn't that cause a conflict? Because it will consume most or all of your time, you won't be available to the other business except as an absentee owner, will you?

I'm also a bit baffled by why anyone looking for "adventure" would be sailing out of the Chessie or the Carib on a conventional boat. These days, you could literally open a McDonald's franchise at the Mt. Everest base camp, and find a long line outside your front door every morning. So my (mis)perception? Is that adventuresome charterers would want to be someplace more exotic and adventuresome.

What am I missing there?


----------



## Yamsailor

No conflict. 88% of Captained Charters occur on the weekend during the summer in the USA. Same with instruction. There are several instructors at the school. I am the senior instructor--not the owner.



hellosailor said:


> Two things I don't grasp.
> 
> If the new venture will be "secondary" income, doesn't that cause a conflict? Because it will consume most or all of your time, you won't be available to the other business except as an absentee owner, will you?
> 
> I'm also a bit baffled by why anyone looking for "adventure" would be sailing out of the Chessie or the Carib on a conventional boat. These days, you could literally open a McDonald's franchise at the Mt. Everest base camp, and find a long line outside your front door every morning. So my (mis)perception? Is that adventuresome charterers would want to be someplace more exotic and adventuresome.
> 
> What am I missing there?


----------



## hellosailor

Even that would seem like a conflict. If you want the chartering to be viewed as a business, not a hobby, by the IRS, they'll want to see profits and that means you'll need to book lots of weekends, which means you wouldn't be available to the sailing school. The owners would have to be very casual to ignore "I can't work this weekend" a lot, if that's their busy time.

Dunno. "Secondary" and seasonal and finding an adventuresome crowd that, well, is doing something near home and common? I still don't get it, but good luck with it.


----------



## Yamsailor

I have vetted this through an attorney and accountant; I have that all covered. The topic of this thread relates to boat size and client accommodation. I prefer to stay focused on the thread topic.



hellosailor said:


> Even that would seem like a conflict. If you want the chartering to be viewed as a business, not a hobby, by the IRS, they'll want to see profits and that means you'll need to book lots of weekends, which means you wouldn't be available to the sailing school. The owners would have to be very casual to ignore "I can't work this weekend" a lot, if that's their busy time.
> 
> Dunno. "Secondary" and seasonal and finding an adventuresome crowd that, well, is doing something near home and common? I still don't get it, but good luck with it.


----------



## xort

I've noticed that truly classic, antique sailboats can bring in a nice premium. If I wanted to go into crewed charter, I would look at classic daysails. End of the day you get your boat, and your life back.


----------



## captainjay

We have a sailing school from New England that use our bareboats in the winter time to teach ASA on. They use the Beneteau 41 some and also use the Hunter 45 DS that we have. We have two new 45 Beneteau's joining the fleet this year which they will likely be switching over to those as well as the new 48 four cabin that we have.

I think you are going to be much happier with a 45. The current Beneteau 45 is pretty much perfect for this. It has a huge cockpit, can be equipped with generator and air conditioning from the factory and has three nice sized cabins. The current 41 can't be built with three cabins and a genset. Beneteau is telling us that we will be able to get the new 41 in a three cabin with genset. It will be on display at the Miami show this week so we will see. 

As for charter outside of the sailing school, if your flexible there is work out there. I wouldn't rule out day sails, short term charters, think long weekend for a couple of couples that are staying on land and want to do a few days around the BVI's and week long captain only charters for people that may not be qualified to bareboat on their own. You will need to be good at marketing to keep busy. It will be tough to compete with bigger crewed boats, that market is primarily catamarans now. It also will be tough to get much of a premium over what the bareboat companies charge. Keep in mind that as the boat ages you will be competing with the newest and shiniest from every direction you might actually have to price yourself below a bareboat to stay busy. While none of this will make you rich it might well pay for your lifestyle. 

You also will have to be a one man band. Know the boat inside and out and be capable of repairing it on the fly. You will not have the margins to pay for or the spare time to wait on local repairs down here. This means get real proficient at servicing and repairing your genset and all the ships systems. Spare parts are your friend. 

Jay


----------



## mbianka

My life companion has been dragging me on Captained/Crewed charters for decades. Probably have about 20 under our belts. We've done a number of stateroom charters and also charter boats ourselves. Since she loves these vacations to do snorkeling as much as possible. Other factors play into the decision on which boat she will book. She tends to like Catamarans but, the cost of booking a charter for just two people has been going from Ouch$ to Boing$! for a few years now. She still likes the deck room. Though I find the sleeping accommodations to be less and less comfortable. Even walking around the deck is not as easy as on my monohull IMO. We are beginning to look at monohulls for charters because of lower cost and ease of getting in and out of the bunks. 

One factor that is a deal killer for her is a swim ladder that is not easy to get back on board with. It should straight, sturdy and roomy and and have rungs that go well below the surface.

Another factor she looks at is rain protection. We would not rebook on some boats because they did not have the ability to enclose the cockpit fast in the case of a sprinkle much less a deluge. Make sure you have easily deploy-able rain protection.

Good luck with your business plans. It's a lot of hard work and worry both on and off charters IMO. Though personally I feel I've got my cruising jones fix over the years doing these charters. Visiting wonderful places that I probably would never get to otherwise sipping a cold one watching while the Captain is replacing a water pump on one of the engines while underway.


----------



## Yamsailor

The hull length of the Beneteau 41 is 39' 3". The Beneteau 45 hull length is 44' 3". It appears a minimum hull length for 4 guests needs to be at least 42'. Day sails are the best in my opinion for many reasons.

When you refer to the Caribbean, are you referring only o the virgin islands or other parts of of the Caribbean as well?



captainjay said:


> We have a sailing school from New England that use our bareboats in the winter time to teach ASA on. They use the Beneteau 41 some and also use the Hunter 45 DS that we have. We have two new 45 Beneteau's joining the fleet this year which they will likely be switching over to those as well as the new 48 four cabin that we have.
> 
> I think you are going to be much happier with a 45. The current Beneteau 45 is pretty much perfect for this. It has a huge cockpit, can be equipped with generator and air conditioning from the factory and has three nice sized cabins. The current 41 can't be built with three cabins and a genset. Beneteau is telling us that we will be able to get the new 41 in a three cabin with genset. It will be on display at the Miami show this week so we will see.
> 
> As for charter outside of the sailing school, if your flexible there is work out there. I wouldn't rule out day sails, short term charters, think long weekend for a couple of couples that are staying on land and want to do a few days around the BVI's and week long captain only charters for people that may not be qualified to bareboat on their own. You will need to be good at marketing to keep busy. It will be tough to compete with bigger crewed boats, that market is primarily catamarans now. It also will be tough to get much of a premium over what the bareboat companies charge. Keep in mind that as the boat ages you will be competing with the newest and shiniest from every direction you might actually have to price yourself below a bareboat to stay busy. While none of this will make you rich it might well pay for your lifestyle.
> 
> You also will have to be a one man band. Know the boat inside and out and be capable of repairing it on the fly. You will not have the margins to pay for or the spare time to wait on local repairs down here. This means get real proficient at servicing and repairing your genset and all the ships systems. Spare parts are your friend.
> 
> Jay


----------



## Yamsailor

Thanks you for your insight---very helpful!



mbianka said:


> My life companion has been dragging me on Captained/Crewed charters for decades. Probably have about 20 under our belts. We've done a number of stateroom charters and also charter boats ourselves. Since she loves these vacations to do snorkeling as much as possible. Other factors play into the decision on which boat she will book. She tends to like Catamarans but, the cost of booking a charter for just two people has been going from Ouch$ to Boing$! for a few years now. She still likes the deck room. Though I find the sleeping accommodations to be less and less comfortable. Even walking around the deck is not as easy on my monohull IMO. We are beginning to look at monohulls for charters because of lower cost and ease of getting in and out of the bunks.
> 
> One factor that is a deal killer for her is a swim ladder that is not easy to get back on board with. It should straight, sturdy and roomy and and have rungs that go well below the surface.
> 
> Another factor she looks at is rain protection. We would not rebook on some boats because they did not have the ability to enclose the cockpit fast in the case of a sprinkle much less a deluge. Make sure you have easily deploy-able rain protection.
> 
> Good luck with your business plans. It's a lot of hard work and worry both on and off charters IMO. Though personally I feel I've got my cruising jones fix over the years doing these charters. Visiting wonderful places that I probably would never get to otherwise sipping a cold one watching while the Captain is replacing a water pump on one of the engines while underway.


----------



## FarCry

Yamsailor said:


> The hull length of the Beneteau 41 is 39' 3". The Beneteau 45 hull length is 44' 3". It appears a minimum hull length for 4 guests needs to be at least 42'. Day sails are the best in my opinion for many reasons.
> 
> When you refer to the Caribbean, are you referring only o the virgin islands or other parts of of the Caribbean as well?


Jay lives on St Thomas and is the manager for CYOA, a local charter company. Yes his description is for the USVI, BVI and SVI.

Just curious, where did you find the formula that says 42' hull length is the minimum for 4 guests?


----------



## Yamsailor

No formula. I have been asking a lot of people-- Professional Captains, Sailing Instructors and Customers.

It also depends how the boat is laid out.



FarCry said:


> Jay lives on St Thomas and is the manager for CYOA, a local charter company. Yes his description is for the USVI, BVI and SVI.
> 
> Just curious, where did you find the formula that says 42' hull length is the minimum for 4 guests?


----------



## capta

Faster said:


> you're quite likely to get customers that are not really boaters.


Funny you should mention that as our last 8 charter guests (4 charters) had never sailed before. For most the occasional ferry ride was the sum total of their boating experience. Every one of them enjoyed it without the usual griping about what they didn't/couldn't have/do. Really amazing in my experience. Not one has even gotten seasick.
Half of them are already trying to book another trip with even more time for sailing. It seems we have found the mother load of customers for what we have to offer.
As someone who had completely retired from 'working' on vessels, I'm having a ball with these people and actually enjoy having someplace to be at a certain time, and meeting new friends who wish to go sailing.
I never much cottoned to the philosophy that cruising wasn't fun if one had a schedule. Part of the challenge of sailing is getting somewhere even if Neptune puts some difficulties in your way.


----------



## Yamsailor

what do you charge for a 3 hour tour ?



capta said:


> Funny you should mention that as our last 8 charter guests (4 charters) had never sailed before. For most the occasional ferry ride was the sum total of their boating experience. Every one of them enjoyed it without the usual griping about what they didn't/couldn't have/do. Really amazing in my experience. Not one has even gotten seasick.
> Half of them are already trying to book another trip with even more time for sailing. It seems we have found the mother load of customers for what we have to offer.
> As someone who had completely retired from 'working' on vessels, I'm having a ball with these people and actually enjoy having someplace to be at a certain time, and meeting new friends who wish to go sailing.
> I never much cottoned to the philosophy that cruising wasn't fun if one had a schedule. Part of the challenge of sailing is getting somewhere even if Neptune puts some difficulties in your way.


----------



## outbound

Know three couples doing this.
One on a Skye 51. Another on a Hylas 54. Third on a 50' cat. This allows crew to have dedicated area and not be moving stuff in/out of guest areas. Allows couple to run boat even if guests unable or unwilling to assist. One as captain but "cook" also crews when necessary. Allows 2-4 guests without fees being out of reach. Boat can be marketed as sail and train or luxury cruise. Importantly all have networked with charter brokers so bookings and marketing handled through third party. Boats move north/south to be available throughout the year. (BVI/Maine or Newport). Key seems to be repeat clientele as marketing/ booking fees disappear. 
So although know little about this but have a offspring who's significant other is a pro captain and several friends who are pro captains Believe for your plans a two person outfit on a 50 something seems to be the most common small business. Week charters occasionally supplemented with day charters- snorkeling trips/catered brief parties.


----------



## capta

Yamsailor said:


> what do you charge for a 3 hour tour ?


Depends. Are you Ginger or Mary Ann?


----------



## mbianka

Yamsailor said:


> Thanks you for your insight---very helpful!


Thought of a couple of more things came to mind as we are currently on a charter in the Exumas:

1) Pets on board are a NO GO for us. My gal does not enjoy having a dog or cat underfoot. Also the idea of potentially sleeping on a bunk with fleas is not appealing. For others it may not be an issue but, it is one of the first things we look for when booking a charter. Pets = No booking.

2) One thing I will be putting on the demand list from now on is at least one working fan in the sleeping cabin for comfort. I've got three on board my 30 footer and my boat is no where near the tropics. Our current charter had none in the cabin. They had them at one time (wires hanging out) but, obviously never replaced them. After an uncomfortable night at least the Capt. rigged up a 120 volt fan unit and ran the inverter all night. That was fine. All previous charters had them. I'll be making sure that future ones do too.


----------



## Capt Len

Although I'm no longer involved in da biz I had some experiences . I built a classic ketch and made a pretty good go at making her pay. Did the drunken parties, the diving trips , the wandering with guests thru the islands and finally simple day trips out of Victoria. We called it 'Three Hour Sail' for obvious reasons. Each in this list was a step up from the previous. It was a niche market situation ,worked out so well others have tried but couldn't complete with the best. Sold becuase of personal issues but the new owner is flying the burgee.


----------



## hellosailor

I can understand about pets, but these days if you sleep around, bedbugs might be a bigger concern. Fleas and ticks are much easier to get rid of. And, at least in the US, most pets are on some kind of flea and tick repellant or killer. Crossing international boundaries...each flea needs to be separately quarantined with a separate vet's record too, don't they?(G)


----------



## Yamsailor

I agree about the Pets.

The boat I am purchasing has a generator and Air Conditioning as well as fans.



mbianka said:


> Thought of a couple of more things came to mind as we are currently on a charter in the Exumas:
> 
> 1) Pets on board are a NO GO for us. My gal does not enjoy having a dog or cat underfoot. Also the idea of potentially sleeping on a bunk with fleas is not appealing. For others it may not be an issue but, it is one of the first things we look for when booking a charter. Pets = No booking.
> 
> 2) One thing I will be putting on the demand list from now on is at least one working fan in the sleeping cabin for comfort. I've got three on board my 30 footer and my boat is no where near the tropics. Our current charter had none in the cabin. They had them at one time (wires hanging out) but, obviously never replaced them. After an uncomfortable night at least the Capt. rigged up a 120 volt fan unit and ran the inverter all night. That was fine. All previous charters had them. I'll be making sure that future ones do too.


----------



## mbianka

Yamsailor said:


> I agree about the Pets.
> 
> The boat I am purchasing has a generator and Air Conditioning as well as fans.


I've never felt the need for an air conditioner when the boat is anchored or on a mooring. But, the fan always makes things more comfortable. Also helps keep mosquitoes at bay they don't like flying in breezes.

Another thing you also might want to consider installing is a small night light in the head. Getting back to sleep is better when one is not blasted by a bright LED or fluorescent light in the middle of the night.


----------



## Yamsailor

The Chesapeake Bay can be brutal during the summer.



mbianka said:


> I've never felt the need for an air conditioner when the boat is anchored or on a mooring. But, the fan always makes things more comfortable. Also helps keep mosquitoes at bay they don't like flying in breezes.
> 
> Another thing you also might want to consider installing is a small night light in the head. Getting back to sleep is better when one is not blasted by a bright LED or fluorescent light in the middle of the night.


----------



## mbianka

Yamsailor said:


> The Chesapeake Bay can be brutal during the summer.


I'm not saying it's not a good thing to have air conditioning available on a charter. Though using it often is money coming off of your bottom line.
On our recent charter in the Exumas the Capt. mentioned he had not turned on the air conditioning on his catamaran in four years. But, he is usually at anchor or mooring as is my boat. When docked it is another matter. We did use air conditioning on one charter for one night a number of years ago. That was at Boca Chita near Miami. Mosquitoes were horrendous! Another reason to anchor out whenever possible IMO.


----------



## caberg

I don't think I'll ever understand the appeal of a captained charter. You could not pay me to spend my vacation with a total stranger in what amounts to less square footage than a hotel room. I guess maybe the captain turns out to be really cool and you hit it off and have a great time, but my hard earned money won't be taking that bet.


----------



## capta

mbianka said:


> I'm not saying it's not a good thing to have air conditioning available on a charter. Though using it often is money coming off of your bottom line.


Most smaller crewed charter boats have a surcharge to run the air all night, so it does not come 'off of your bottom line".
In the warmer months we will run the air in the salon for the evening meal if it's uncomfortably hot and humid. I must say, the guests, especially those from colder climates, seem to appreciate it.



caberg said:


> I don't think I'll ever understand the appeal of a captained charter. You could not pay me to spend my vacation with a total stranger in what amounts to less square footage than a hotel room. I guess maybe the captain turns out to be really cool and you hit it off and have a great time, but my hard earned money won't be taking that bet.


We get a lot of folks who've never sailed before and had never really thought about it until it came up as a possible part of their trip they were planning to the Caribbean. They spend some time on an island like Grenada or St. Lucia and then they join us for a week sail through the Grenadines. So far, they have all really enjoyed the sailing every bit as much as their adventures ashore and in the water snorkeling.
I think it's great that you are capable and enjoy sailing in new areas and enjoy all the responsibility of handling a strange boat in new to you waters, but there are those who just want to enjoy the trip without all the responsibility, on their vacation. Also, I sure hope your cook enjoys putting out all the great meals that my cook serves, while on her vacation.
Lastly, a local captain trumps a newbie in any area at finding those off the beaten path gems, IMO. We thought we knew Grenada after 2 hurricane seasons there. We'd traveled the island extensively by bus and yet many times we'd passed right by the place where the monkeys come to eat from your hand, as well as the turmeric, cocoa and various other spice trees. A guided tour showed us so many things and places that one is unlikely to find on their own.


----------



## mbianka

capta said:


> Most smaller crewed charter boats have a surcharge to run the air all night, so it does not come 'off of your bottom line".
> In the warmer months we will run the air in the salon for the evening meal if it's uncomfortably hot and humid. I must say, the guests, especially those from colder climates, seem to appreciate it.
> 
> We get a lot of folks who've never sailed before and had never really thought about it until it came up as a possible part of their trip they were planning to the Caribbean. They spend some time on an island like Grenada or St. Lucia and then they join us for a week sail through the Grenadines. So far, they have all really enjoyed the sailing every bit as much as their adventures ashore and in the water snorkeling.
> I think it's great that you are capable and enjoy sailing in new areas and enjoy all the responsibility of handling a strange boat in new to you waters, but there are those who just want to enjoy the trip without all the responsibility, on their vacation. Also, I sure hope your cook enjoys putting out all the great meals that my cook serves, while on her vacation.
> Lastly, a local captain trumps a newbie in any area at finding those off the beaten path gems, IMO. We thought we knew Grenada after 2 hurricane seasons there. We'd traveled the island extensively by bus and yet many times we'd passed right by the place where the monkeys come to eat from your hand, as well as the turmeric, cocoa and various other spice trees. A guided tour showed us so many things and places that one is unlikely to find on their own.


Nice to have that air condition option for the clients. Though we actually prefer to dine in the cockpit as long as weather permits. So far other than the Mosquito incident at Boca Chita we have been able to do so.

Absolutely agree on the benefit of having a Captain with local knowledge. Makes for a no stress cruise. Plus I never have to learn about a fixing a strange boat systems. We've been to the Maldives twice and both times our local Muslim Captain and crew took us to some great places, caught some amazing fish and cooked up some local dishes that we were curious about. Likewise on our recent Exumas charter had our Captain find us some great snorkel spots no matter what the conditions. He also picked up some fresh Conch from local fishermen friends on one of the Cays and made a fresh cracked Conch sandwich for me for lunch. We even managed a nice snorkel in on the morning of our departure because of his knowledge of local anchoring/reef sites. These charters are my gals vacations I go along to get along.  But, I've come to enjoy them and seen a number of areas that others might only dream about getting to.


----------



## Yamsailor

I do not plan on charging extra for running the generator. As I said in an earlier post, this is a part-time business looking to offset costs while I am working full time. I am currently a sailing instructor and a charter boat captain 3 days a week during the summer. I have NO plans to make this my main source of income.



capta said:


> Most smaller crewed charter boats have a surcharge to run the air all night, so it does not come 'off of your bottom line".
> In the warmer months we will run the air in the salon for the evening meal if it's uncomfortably hot and humid. I must say, the guests, especially those from colder climates, seem to appreciate it.
> 
> We get a lot of folks who've never sailed before and had never really thought about it until it came up as a possible part of their trip they were planning to the Caribbean. They spend some time on an island like Grenada or St. Lucia and then they join us for a week sail through the Grenadines. So far, they have all really enjoyed the sailing every bit as much as their adventures ashore and in the water snorkeling.
> I think it's great that you are capable and enjoy sailing in new areas and enjoy all the responsibility of handling a strange boat in new to you waters, but there are those who just want to enjoy the trip without all the responsibility, on their vacation. Also, I sure hope your cook enjoys putting out all the great meals that my cook serves, while on her vacation.
> Lastly, a local captain trumps a newbie in any area at finding those off the beaten path gems, IMO. We thought we knew Grenada after 2 hurricane seasons there. We'd traveled the island extensively by bus and yet many times we'd passed right by the place where the monkeys come to eat from your hand, as well as the turmeric, cocoa and various other spice trees. A guided tour showed us so many things and places that one is unlikely to find on their own.


----------



## Minnewaska

Yamsailor said:


> ....As I said in an earlier post, this is a part-time business looking to offset costs .....


First you have to overcome the additional costs of running a commercial operation. I'm curious if you've looked into commercial liability insurance costs, for example. Most part time businesses work for free, through a certain number of clients, until these are all paid.

Hope it all works out for you, if you really want to do it.


----------



## mstern

caberg said:


> I don't think I'll ever understand the appeal of a captained charter. You could not pay me to spend my vacation with a total stranger in what amounts to less square footage than a hotel room. I guess maybe the captain turns out to be really cool and you hit it off and have a great time, but my hard earned money won't be taking that bet.


The Admiral has said that a captained charter with a cook is the only way she will do one of these vacations. As much as I would like to bareboat, I understand that cooking and crewing is not much of a holiday for her. So we've been exploring the world of crewed charters.


----------



## caberg

mstern said:


> The Admiral has said that a captained charter with a cook is the only way she will do one of these vacations. As much as I would like to bareboat, I understand that cooking and crewing is not much of a holiday for her. So we've been exploring the world of crewed charters.


Everyone has a different idea of what constitutes a vacation for them. On a boat or not, we actually enjoy cooking meals on vacation without distractions and timelines of regular life. But my disinterest in a captained/crewed charter is about sharing very small living spaces 24/7 with people who are essentially total strangers. It's just not our thing. I would find it hard to fully and completely relax. Maybe I am too self-conscious or maybe we like to be inappropriate at times on vacation when no one else is watching ;-) I suspect that some people get it, and if if not then that's great for you and captained/crewed might be a good way to go.


----------



## Yamsailor

Already done. The numbers still work.



Minnewaska said:


> First you have to overcome the additional costs of running a commercial operation. I'm curious if you've looked into commercial liability insurance costs, for example. Most part time businesses work for free, through a certain number of clients, until these are all paid.
> 
> Hope it all works out for you, if you really want to do it.


----------



## Yamsailor

My target market are people who do not know how to sail but are looking for the experience and maybe considering learning how to sail. I am the head instructor at a sailing school and we already do some charter work. This essentially is going to be a synergistic operation with an established structure.



caberg said:


> Everyone has a different idea of what constitutes a vacation for them. On a boat or not, we actually enjoy cooking meals on vacation without distractions and timelines of regular life. But my disinterest in a captained/crewed charter is about sharing very small living spaces 24/7 with people who are essentially total strangers. It's just not our thing. I would find it hard to fully and completely relax. Maybe I am too self-conscious or maybe we like to be inappropriate at times on vacation when no one else is watching ;-) I suspect that some people get it, and if if not then that's great for you and captained/crewed might be a good way to go.


----------



## mbianka

caberg said:


> Everyone has a different idea of what constitutes a vacation for them. On a boat or not, we actually enjoy cooking meals on vacation without distractions and timelines of regular life. But my disinterest in a captained/crewed charter is about sharing very small living spaces 24/7 with people who are essentially total strangers. It's just not our thing. I would find it hard to fully and completely relax. Maybe I am too self-conscious or maybe we like to be inappropriate at times on vacation when no one else is watching ;-) I suspect that some people get it, and if if not then that's great for you and captained/crewed might be a good way to go.


Yes it's different strokes for different folks. We've done both cabin charters where we have one cabin and strangers have booked the other cabins. We also book captained/crew charters ourselves. We have enjoyed both types of experiences. Especially the lower cost of the shared charters.  Never really had a bad experience and met some interesting people along the way. Though I do enjoy sailing on my own boat solo most of my time. What I do really like about the charters is they satisfy my warm water winter fix.


----------



## capta

Faster said:


> 'what? I can't have a 20 minute shower?' - 'Can't use my hair dryer?' until you get to the 'near ship' size...


Actually, what I'm running into more than the hair drier thing is adapters and power to charge phones, cameras and tablets these days. Most of our customers are Europeans and didn't think to bring their 'car' chargers.
Thanks to the 40 gph watermaker, though I still cringe when they do it, a long shower isn't all that much of a bother any more.
Changes, forever changes.


----------



## Yamsailor

Actually, my boat has a generator so power is not an issue for me.



capta said:


> Actually, what I'm running into more than the hair drier thing is adapters and power to charge phones, cameras and tablets these days. Most of our customers are Europeans and didn't think to bring their 'car' chargers.
> Thanks to the 40 gph watermaker, though I still cringe when they do it, a long shower isn't all that much of a bother any more.
> Changes, forever changes.


----------



## capta

Yamsailor said:


> Actually, my boat has a generator so power is not an issue for me.


I wasn't about the amount of power with an 8kw genset, but rather the voltage; Europe is 220vac with different plugs.
Most people now use USB, so all I need is several USB ports and everybody is happy.


----------



## Uricanejack

Yamsailor said:


> Actually, my boat has a generator so power is not an issue for me.


Nice. Old thread rejuvenated. Hopefully it's all working out as planned.
What kind or side of boat did you end up with.


----------



## Yamsailor

I purchased a brand new Catalina 425. It is actually working out better than I planned (so far). It really helps one of my captains is also an expert in marine marketing.

You can check it out here on my website: www.shardanasailing.com



Uricanejack said:


> Nice. Old thread rejuvenated. Hopefully it's all working out as planned.
> What kind or side of boat did you end up with.


----------



## SanderO

Not being someone who would charter... crewed or bare boat... I would imagine the proof of the pudding is in the tasting. How are your guest responding? Are they repeating? Are they wanting something you are not able to offer? Web site is very well done.

My hunch is that people who charter a crewed boat are not sailors and expect all manner of creature comforts and "conveniences". Being on a sailboat of almost any size is plenty of "adventure" for land lubbers. Socializing may work better in larger spaces... and people may also need to be able to retreat and be alone.


----------



## Yamsailor

SanderO said:


> Not being someone who would charter... crewed or bare boat... I would imagine the proof of the pudding is in the tasting. How are your guest responding? Are they repeating? Are they wanting something you are not able to offer? Web site is very well done.
> 
> My hunch is that people who charter a crewed boat are not sailors and expect all manner of creature comforts and "conveniences". Being on a sailboat of almost any size is plenty of "adventure" for land lubbers. Socializing may work better in larger spaces... and people may also need to be able to retreat and be alone.


Last year was my first full season. I did way better than my goals. I was actually quite pleasantly surprised.

So far really well. I am already getting repeat bookings from last year. Some of my clients are older people who used to own boats; Some are clients who just learned how to sail and what big boat experience; and the majority of my clients are not sailors. Only situation I am not able to provide are charters for greater than six passengers as I am not an inspected vessel.

Thank You for the compliment on the website!


----------



## SanderO

Hats off to you and other crewed charter operators. I personally have little patience for landlubbers on the boat so it's hard to imagine this as an occupation. My concerns are that they hurt themselves or they hurt the boat. I would consider these liabilities on a cruise ship or a mega yacht.

The other aspect which is not all that appealing to me is waiting on other people.,, my wife is enough or the two grand daughters.

I have found a certain joy when a person experiences sailing for the first time and gets a real deep thrill... and reacts... WOW what have I been missing all these years! That type wants to come again and wants to learn.... because they seem to have a few "ah ha" moments when they realize how much more robust the sailing experience is when you know what you are doing on and with a boat... perhaps similar to a person wanting to play an instrument because they love music.

Of course one doesn't know what charter folks are after... or even if they get sea sick. And the skipper / crew is "stuck" with them for the entire charter. Good luck! It may not be as bad as I imagine. But it's a job that's not for me... as sailing is more personal and intimate... and very much less social. But I can think of a lot of jobs worse than sailing for a living.


----------



## Yamsailor

SanderO said:


> Hats off to you and other crewed charter operators. I personally have little patience for landlubbers on the boat so it's hard to imagine this as an occupation. My concerns are that they hurt themselves or they hurt the boat. I would consider these liabilities on a cruise ship or a mega yacht.
> 
> The other aspect which is not all that appealing to me is waiting on other people.,, my wife is enough or the two grand daughters.
> 
> I have found a certain joy when a person experiences sailing for the first time and gets a real deep thrill... and reacts... WOW what have I been missing all these years! That type wants to come again and wants to learn.... because they seem to have a few "ah ha" moments when they realize how much more robust the sailing experience is when you know what you are doing on and with a boat... perhaps similar to a person wanting to play an instrument because they love music.
> 
> Of course one doesn't know what charter folks are after... or even if they get sea sick. And the skipper / crew is "stuck" with them for the entire charter. Good luck! It may not be as bad as I imagine. But it's a job that's not for me... as sailing is more personal and intimate... and very much less social. But I can think of a lot of jobs worse than sailing for a living.


Thanks. For me, it is a lot of fun.


----------



## capta

We are just beginning our 4th charter season here in the Grenadines and I must say, overall it has been the best experience of my career as captain of a small charter sailing vessel.
The last two years were excellent, with 18 charters each, a few half board term charters, some full board term charters (normally Grenada/St Lucia or vice-versa) and quite a few "a taste of sailing" charters in the Grenadines, which are magnificent for those who have never sailed before. Sometimes, 7 nights and 8 days is a bit much for first-timers, especially if Christmas winds are blowing.
Out of all those passengers, only a handful were a bit difficult and even those were not near as bad as many I've had over the years on the larger, much more expensive vessels. By keeping our prices low, I think we attract a much more appreciative and less spoiled clientele, who would not normally be able afford a vacation like this.
They ranged in age from the mid-'20s to two (different charters) couples in their 80's, both from Germany. Occupations were varied, from a very high ranking national police officer, a major European city's symphony's organ player to a professional gold miner. They were from Germany, Denmark, Austria, Switzerland, and the US with a Finn, a Ghanaian and a Turk as well.
We got pretty good at charades with those with limited English, and we are still in frequent contact with about 75% of them. No repeats yet, but some are enquiring and we are considering doing a summer in Greece to accommodate them there (much cheaper transportation costs for the Europeans), in a few years.
However, this year is looking a bit lean, so we are offering a 10% discount on any Grenadines charters in the 2018/19 winter season booked before Janruary 31, 2019.
I think it is pretty interesting that after retiring some 10 years back, I'm having such a lot of fun working again.


----------



## aa3jy

Mellennials...the new wave in chartering vs. purchasing....

https://www.boatus.com/magazine/2017/october/why-arent-millennials-buying-boats.asp

..but most chartering marketers already know this..


----------



## Yamsailor

capta said:


> We are just beginning our 4th charter season here in the Grenadines and I must say, overall it has been the best experience of my career as captain of a small charter sailing vessel.
> The last two years were excellent, with 18 charters each, a few half board term charters, some full board term charters (normally Grenada/St Lucia or vice-versa) and quite a few "a taste of sailing" charters in the Grenadines, which are magnificent for those who have never sailed before. Sometimes, 7 nights and 8 days is a bit much for first-timers, especially if Christmas winds are blowing.
> Out of all those passengers, only a handful were a bit difficult and even those were not near as bad as many I've had over the years on the larger, much more expensive vessels. By keeping our prices low, I think we attract a much more appreciative and less spoiled clientele, who would not normally be able afford a vacation like this.
> They ranged in age from the mid-'20s to two (different charters) couples in their 80's, both from Germany. Occupations were varied, from a very high ranking national police officer, a major European city's symphony's organ player to a professional gold miner. They were from Germany, Denmark, Austria, Switzerland, and the US with a Finn, a Ghanaian and a Turk as well.
> We got pretty good at charades with those with limited English, and we are still in frequent contact with about 75% of them. No repeats yet, but some are enquiring and we are considering doing a summer in Greece to accommodate them there (much cheaper transportation costs for the Europeans), in a few years.
> However, this year is looking a bit lean, so we are offering a 10% discount on any Grenadines charters in the 2018/19 winter season booked before Janruary 31, 2019.
> I think it is pretty interesting that after retiring some 10 years back, I'm having such a lot of fun working again.


I want to do what you do when I retire from my full time profession, I like your website.... VERY NICE! I will take four passengers with my boat in the Caribbean. Will be at least 10 years. I have three cabin and two head.

How often do you need to have a diver clean your hull and how often do you have to wax your boat in the Caribbean?


----------



## capta

Yamsailor said:


> I have three cabin and two head.
> How often do you need to have a diver clean your hull and how often do you have to wax your boat in the Caribbean?


We also have three cabins and 2 heads, but only take two passengers on term charters. For us, it is all about the personal service and the space for our guests to lounge comfortably in the cockpit at anchor or underway. With 4 or more no one could stretch out on the cockpit seats or move from side to side at will. 
We have a deck snorkel (a 12-volt hookah rig), so we do not pay anyone to do the bottom. It takes a bit over an hour. The time between cleanings depends on the paint and its age.
We wax once a year. We would rather not get all stressed out over our topsides when our friendly boat boys come alongside and make marks on the hull while bringing fresh fish (when we don't catch it ourselves), fresh fruit, banana bread, etc. or when the park rangers come collecting their fees. 
You are going to spend a fortune (having it waxed continuously) and/or stress yourself out if you want a pristine boat and have a busy charter season.


----------



## chef2sail

Yamsailor said:


> Thank you for your opinion FarCry--I appreciate it. From what you are saying i am i inferring you think there are enough people out there who would purchase a Captained charter for a group of four on a 42 foot 3 cabin 2-head boat.


42 is plenty big enough. Consider a catamaran.


----------



## capta

chef2sail said:


> 42 is plenty big enough. Consider a catamaran.


You do make an excellent point. Cats are 4 to 5 times more popular as charter boats, both bareboat and crewed, these days. I know excellent monohulls and their crews that have been in business successfully for twenty years or more down here that are struggling to make ends meet in this market. 
Most people are seeking the space and imagined lack of movement that cats offer, preferring a hotel suite with multiple bedrooms over the monohull experience. Front and back porches have it all over a cockpit and a stern swim ladder. 
As an owner/operator, were I to choose a boat primarily for charter, it would certainly be the roomiest cat for its size that I could afford. But for any considering this sort of "retirement", those with significant payments on the boat rarely can make a success in this business without another income to supplement their charter income when times are lean, or in the offseason. Brokers (still a necessary evil, IMO) do not appreciate the pressure from "needy" charter operators who must rely on bookings to make their boat and insurance payments, never mind the increased maintenance that sailing without weather windows causes.


----------



## Yamsailor

capta said:


> You do make an excellent point. Cats are 4 to 5 times more popular as charter boats, both bareboat and crewed, these days. I know excellent monohulls and their crews that have been in business successfully for twenty years or more down here that are struggling to make ends meet in this market.
> Most people are seeking the space and imagined lack of movement that cats offer, preferring a hotel suite with multiple bedrooms over the monohull experience. Front and back porches have it all over a cockpit and a stern swim ladder.
> As an owner/operator, were I to choose a boat primarily for charter, it would certainly be the roomiest cat for its size that I could afford. But for any considering this sort of "retirement", those with significant payments on the boat rarely can make a success in this business without another income to supplement their charter income when times are lean, or in the offseason. Brokers (still a necessary evil, IMO) do not appreciate the pressure from "needy" charter operators who must rely on bookings to make their boat and insurance payments, never mind the increased maintenance that sailing without weather windows causes.


Well, I have a monohull and it has worked out for me pretty well thus far.


----------



## RegisteredUser

Shallow end 1st...until you know you have it.
Nice that its working out


----------



## capta

Yamsailor said:


> Well, I have a monohull and it has worked out for me pretty well thus far.


As it has for us, but you are not doing term charters in the Caribbean. 
I don't know if you are aware of this or not but without a great deal of expense and government hoops to jump through, St Thomas, St John, and St Croix are the *only* three islands in the Caribbean where you will be allowed to do day charters, and the market in all three is well saturated with operations that have been in business for years. As a matter of fact, the Virgins, both US and British, are very well saturated with all sorts of charter boats and it is extremely difficult to break into that market. Checkout the regulations to term charter in the BVI's if you want some idea of the hoops you will have to jump through to work there. Down island may be easier, but without several seasons of sailing the area to really familiarize oneself with the area, it would be foolish, IMO, to begin a term charter business down there. Many attempt this, but find themselves learning at their customers' expense, which can be extremely hard on the boat's reputation, especially if the skipper continually chooses anchorages unsuited to the weather. We leave those experiences to the bareboats and believe me, even a cat can get damn uncomfortable in a bad anchorage.
Some other islands (countries) charge charter boats fees to operate in their waters, which can add greatly to the expense of running operations there. But under no circumstances are you allowed to operate a charter boat in any country I know of without the proper permits and fees if you are not putting a foreign port in between your pickup and drop off ports. The local operators are going to be all over you if you try it and it could result in you being heavily fined or having your boat confiscated.
So, were are off into the Christmas Winds for the next two weeks. I hope our guests bring plenty of _mal de mer _meds!
Anyway, good luck with your endeavor.


----------



## Yamsailor

capta said:


> As it has for us, but you are not doing term charters in the Caribbean.
> I don't know if you are aware of this or not but without a great deal of expense and government hoops to jump through, St Thomas, St John, and St Croix are the *only* three islands in the Caribbean where you will be allowed to do day charters, and the market in all three is well saturated with operations that have been in business for years. As a matter of fact, the Virgins, both US and British, are very well saturated with all sorts of charter boats and it is extremely difficult to break into that market. Checkout the regulations to term charter in the BVI's if you want some idea of the hoops you will have to jump through to work there. Down island may be easier, but without several seasons of sailing the area to really familiarize oneself with the area, it would be foolish, IMO, to begin a term charter business down there. Many attempt this, but find themselves learning at their customers' expense, which can be extremely hard on the boat's reputation, especially if the skipper continually chooses anchorages unsuited to the weather. We leave those experiences to the bareboats and believe me, even a cat can get damn uncomfortable in a bad anchorage.
> Some other islands (countries) charge charter boats fees to operate in their waters, which can add greatly to the expense of running operations there. But under no circumstances are you allowed to operate a charter boat in any country I know of without the proper permits and fees if you are not putting a foreign port in between your pickup and drop off ports. The local operators are going to be all over you if you try it and it could result in you being heavily fined or having your boat confiscated.
> So, were are off into the Christmas Winds for the next two weeks. I hope our guests bring plenty of _mal de mer _meds!
> Anyway, good luck with your endeavor.


Yes I am aware. Luckily I am 1/2 British and have relatives who happened to be lawyers living in the area. I am not worried when I decide to make the attempt. I do everything by the book.


----------

