# Marina Lawsuit/ Looking for help;advise



## Lawson911 (Apr 30, 2007)

I recently was served with lawsuit for partial non payment for work performed by Doral Marine Resort, in Midland Ontario. Last May I lost the engine in my Dufour 39 and needed a replacement. I contacted Doral, and they said they had an engine in stock, the new Yanmar 4JH4AE, and they could complete the work in 7-10 days. Two months later I got the boat. On my maiden voyage across Georgian Bay I tried to use the engine. At any RPM above 1000 the vibration threatened to shake the boat apart. Out of sight of land, no wind, rookie crew, no fun. When we finally arrived at land, not our final destination, as we did not have the speed nessesary to reach, I called the marina to let them know the situation. Take it to your marina and have them check it. When we did, we found the engine had not been aligned, they forgot, the boat had not been water tested, they missed this step. At this point I held back 20% of the total bill, but paid for 80%, enough to cover all the parts, and the actual labour costs. Alignment only helped a bit, so at the end of the season Doral had my marina drop the rudder and pull the shaft. Turns out the shaft was bent, in the centre. This by the way was a brand new shaft with less than an hour of running time. Great I though, they found the problem, in addition to not doing all the other things normally associated with installing a new engine, they bent the new shaft. Fix it, install it, and we are good to go. Not so fast. Shaft sat at the repair shop, all winter. When I found out I called to complain, we are in April, sailing starts in May what are you guys doing. At this point Doral had the shaft repaired, took possesion of my shaft and Maxi-Prop propeller, and held them for randsom. Give us our money, or you are not getting your shaft and prop back. It is now June 7, boat is sitting on the hard, no shaft or prop. In an effort to salvage this season I have ordered a new shaft and prop
My question to all you impartial members out there is this. Does this seem fair?, has anyone had any experience with this company?, do I have a case for countersuit?, or am I just an ornary person getting what I deserve. Thanks in advance for you imput


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## knothead (Apr 9, 2003)

Lawson911 said:


> I recently was served with lawsuit for partial non payment for work performed by Doral Marine Resort, in Midland Ontario. Last May I lost the engine in my Dufour 39 and needed a replacement. I contacted Doral, and they said they had an engine in stock, the new Yanmar 4JH4AE, and they could complete the work in 7-10 days. Two months later I got the boat. On my maiden voyage across Georgian Bay I tried to use the engine. At any RPM above 1000 the vibration threatened to shake the boat apart. Out of sight of land, no wind, rookie crew, no fun. When we finally arrived at land, not our final destination, as we did not have the speed nessesary to reach, I called the marina to let them know the situation. Take it to your marina and have them check it. When we did, we found the engine had not been aligned, they forgot, the boat had not been water tested, they missed this step. At this point I held back 20% of the total bill, but paid for 80%, enough to cover all the parts, and the actual labour costs. Alignment only helped a bit, so at the end of the season Doral had my marina drop the rudder and pull the shaft. Turns out the shaft was bent, in the centre. This by the way was a brand new shaft with less than an hour of running time. Great I though, they found the problem, in addition to not doing all the other things normally associated with installing a new engine, they bent the new shaft. Fix it, install it, and we are good to go. Not so fast. Shaft sat at the repair shop, all winter. When I found out I called to complain, we are in April, sailing starts in May what are you guys doing. At this point Doral had the shaft repaired, took possesion of my shaft and Maxi-Prop propeller, and held them for randsom. Give us our money, or you are not getting your shaft and prop back. It is now June 7, boat is sitting on the hard, no shaft or prop. In an effort to salvage this season I have ordered a new shaft and prop
> My question to all you impartial members out there is this. Does this seem fair?, has anyone had any experience with this company?, do I have a case for countersuit?, or am I just an ornary person getting what I deserve. Thanks in advance for you imput


Doesn't sound fair to me at all. 
I would certainly think that you have grounds for a counter suit. Unfortunately, unless you are talking small claims court, you will probably have to get a lawyer involved and that may cost more than it's worth.

I just have one question. Why wasn't the vibration noticed upon receipt of the boat after the installation?
I would think that after having a new engine installed you would have put it though it's paces before heading out of sight of land.

Anyway, Sounds like a bummer and I hope you get it resolved soon. Good Luck.

Steve

Oh, and welcome. Looks like your first post here.


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## brak (Jan 5, 2007)

Well, another company to put on a blacklist. I am not around those parts, but those that are may want to avoid doing business with them. Sounds like a typical bad marine service outfit - careless, greedy and does not own up to their mistakes. 

Did they actually serve you with a lawsuit? Is it a small claims court or a real lawusuit in a circuit court? (If it is a real court, they have to spend for a lawyer, which probably isn't too cost effective for them - I don't know what 20% of the cost of this engine is, but it's hard to imagine that being more than say $5K and lawyer would cost them at least half that much). I think barring actual damages you may have hard time having a claim against them (i am not a lawyer of course, so this is advice only based on my past experience talking to lawyers and small claims). That said, small claim won't cost you much. If you can document the problems and issues you've had and what it cost to remedy them, it may be worth while to make a claim. At a very least you'll have something to use to bargain with them.


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## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

Lawson:

First welcom to Sailnet

I have had very similar dealings in my life...and one thing I have learned is the courts will generally go against the consumer and side with the service provider....Not that they want to ...but due to the fact that we as consumers do not document and or go through the detailed steps needed to protect ourselves....\

Have you ever dealt with an Asian in any transaction....They are born buisness people and ask , test , verify, record and document every detail of a transaction, contract or whatever...We Anglo Saxons ( presuming you are one) are plain gullible because we innately trust people especially so called professional people....And we get stung because of that trust...

Unfortunately....your failure to have the yard sea test their work with you aboard befor you took possession...to a court *IS* acceptance of their work and for all the court knows you hit a log or damaged it yourself....You see where I going with this? Even if the Judge believes you over the company owner the law will side against you..

I am sorry to tell you this...but you will be wasting your time in court...You will be more effective bad mouthing the yard and steering other work away from them..

I have been in buisness 21 years...My go to court threshold is 10K if its less then that I deal with it in other ways..

Edit to add: The internet is a powerful and common tool any more.... and more and more people are checking out companies befor making major decisions of purchases, repairs ect...If you were able to post a blog ( is that the right term? ) about your experience ..That would come up if someone googled the yards name it would go a long way in them mending their ways..or at least give others a heads up to dot their I's and cross their T's with this particular co....Just be sure to be truthful..


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

Might help to see this from the other point of view ... as a business, collecting a debt, even threatening legal action for payment isn't as easy as it might seem ...

An inside look at debt collection


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

I believe you should consult with someone knowledgeable about Canadian law as there may be significant differences in your rights and the law than the advice you will get from most here.


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

camaraderie said:


> I believe you should consult with someone knowledgeable about Canadian law as there may be significant differences in your rights and the law than the advice you will get from most here.


After following Cam's advise I'd think that you actually have a very good chance of satisfaction if the small claims laws in Canada bear any resemblence to the US laws. I'd differ with Rainy in thinking that the customer usually has a leg up in a small claims court within my experience.

I also think that there is some type of legal precedence that states that payment in full is tantamount to acceptence of services. I'd think that the absence of full payment would actually strengthen your case in terms of showing you'd not signed off on the satisfactory completion of the work. but you need to follow Cam's advise above as we're just shooting in the dark here.


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## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

Sway could be right and nothing is set in stone...

This scenario just reminds me of a Judge Whopner verdict a Loooong time ago...

Some one was taking an auto repair shop to court....Whopner asked if the work had been preformed...."Yes" was the plaintiffs answer but "not" correctly....Whopner ruled in favor of the Auto repair shop....stating that a guarantee of good work is not the courts buisness...and told the plaintiff that he had no requirement to ever use the shop again....but the work was done so pay the shop...


I rest my case ....You be the judge as to what you should do


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## hertfordnc (Sep 10, 2007)

If you google "Doral Marine Resort" right now, this thread comes up on the first page.


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## Gramp34 (Oct 5, 2006)

It sounds to me like they have a case.

I assume they have a signed work order from you. You picked up the boat at the marina and sailed away. Sounds like you accepted the work as being complete to do that.

You didn't say if Doral was straightening the prop shaft at their cost or yours, or if they were paying any of the yard bill at your marina. You didn't mention any additional charges for this work so it sounds like they are trying to make good on the job. Let's face it, it would be very easy for them to say the other marina bent the shaft when they hauled your boat, but it doesn't sound like they're disputing this at all.

It's standard practice in every repair industry I've ever seen not to return property until the bill is paid. I think it's covered by Mechanic's Liens statutes pretty much everywhere. Personally I'm surprised you have the boat at all.

As for the delay in getting work done, did you call them _every day_ after the promised dates and ask for the updated delivery date? If you didn't, I think it might be a challenge for you to convince a Judge you were suffering from loss of use of the boat. Doral could easily say you couldn't have suffered too much since you couldn't even be bothered to call them.

You can get info on Ontario Small Claims Courts at Ministry of the Attorney General - Small Claims Court The limit for suits is $10,000.

Bear in mind that the civil court system is different between Canada and the U.S. In Canada you can sue for punitive damages, but you will only get them if you _prove_ malice. "Emotional distress" won't get you anything. You need to document actual damages, i.e., bring receipts to get any money. Also, Canada uses the "loser pays" system, so if you lose, you pay your lawyer _and_ your opponent's lawyer.

So for a counter suit, I don't know what you could reasonably ask for.

I'd suggest talking to a lawyer about your options. I think it will come down to you're going to pay one way or another. Negotiating a deal with Doral will probably be the fastest, least stressful and cheapest way to get back to sailing.

If I might say, I'm also quite puzzled by this story. As skipper, you're _totally_ responsible for the safety and security of your boat and (admittedly "rookie") crew. A new engine is major surgery on a boat. Presumably the forecast the day you headed out onto Georgian Bay called for light winds, and even if it didn't being becalmed is not an unreasonable expectation for a sailor. Why did you wait until you were in the middle of Georgian Bay to test the new engine? There are no end of stories of sailors getting into trouble because they were trying to sail according to a schedule instead of sailing when the equipment and weather was ready.

Anyway, good luck with this.

Tim


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

Gramp34 said:


> If I might say, I'm also quite puzzled by this story. As skipper, you're _totally_ responsible for the safety and security of your boat and (admittedly "rookie") crew. A new engine is major surgery on a boat. ... Why did you wait until you were in the middle of Georgian Bay to test the new engine?


Not trying to pile on, here, but I was struck by the same thought. I know if _I'd_ just had a new engine, or any other component, replaced, that component and all with which it interacted would be well-tested _before_ I departed for _anywhere_ with the boat.

In a similar vein: Upon return from our first (and, so far, only) outing this season, the boat's drive under engine was obviously Not Right. By the time we got back to the slip, tho, she _seemed_ to have straightened-out. "Probably something hung up on the prop, that cleared itself," we thought. But before departing with crew for a race, yesterday, before even swapping-out the cruising sails for the racing sails, we took her for a spin under engine and stress-tested things a bit. Turns out there _is_ a problem  (transmission, I think--hopefully something I can adjust), so back into her slip she went, until I can positively identify the nature of the problem and effect repair.

Jim


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## Gramp34 (Oct 5, 2006)

Gramp34 said:


> Negotiating a deal with Doral will probably be the fastest, least stressful and cheapest way to get back to sailing.


After a little more thought I think I'll change this statement.

The work order you signed was a legal contract that said they will put the new engine in your boat and you will pay them X dollars when you pick up the boat.

They put the new engine in. You accepted the boat and sailed away.

Only after you accepted the boat did you report a problem. Apparently they have been taking steps to fix the problem. You took the boat, so this is now warranty work.

Meanwhile you haven't paid your bill.

Is it surprising they're not doing any more work on your boat?

When I said before "Negotiating a deal", that should be "Paying your bill".

You signed a contract. Did it say you would pay 80% for their materials and labor, and pay the other 20% when you felt like it, or did it say you'd pay the full amount when you accepted the boat? That's what a court is going to look at.

If you signed a contract that said you are to pay the full bill, you need to pay the full bill. You could try a "I changed my mind and decided I don't want to honor that contract anymore" argument in court, but I expect it'll be cheaper just to pay the bill, get your prop and shaft back and go sailing.

Good luck,

Tim


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## knothead (Apr 9, 2003)

I really hope this isn't another case of someone asking a question and either not liking the answer or simply not caring enough to talk about it any further. 
Lawson911 Where are you. 
I think you have gotten some good advice and have been asked a couple of pertinent questions. Please follow up.

Steve


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

On the topic of checking the boat yourself before accepting the work, I think that is valid. However ... I also think it's easy for us to say everything is the captain's responsibility when really if you pay someone to do something, you do have at least some expectation they are actually going to do it. Yes, I would do most work myself, but I've paid other people to rebuild engines and things before because I didn't have the time or desire to do it and I just wanted to buy my way out of trouble. And as much as I know about engines, even though I could do the work myself, even though I should double check the work ... what am I going to do, take the front cover off of a gasoline engine and make sure they've got the timing chain tensioner right ? I mean if I'm going to do that, I might as well have done it myself.

Edit, I do agree in spirit, however, that the captain should know how to do the things him or herself. If you're just paying someone to do something because you don't know how to do it then that's a problem because they aren't going to be with you when there is trouble.


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## knothead (Apr 9, 2003)

wind_magic said:


> On the topic of checking the boat yourself before accepting the work, I think that is valid. However ... I also think it's easy for us to say everything is the captain's responsibility when really if you pay someone to do something, you do have at least some expectation they are actually going to do it. Yes, I would do most work myself, but I've paid other people to rebuild engines and things before because I didn't have the time or desire to do it and I just wanted to buy my way out of trouble. And as much as I know about engines, even though I could do the work myself, even though I should double check the work ... what am I going to do, take the front cover off of a gasoline engine and make sure they've got the timing chain tensioner right ? I mean if I'm going to do that, I might as well have done it myself.
> 
> Edit, I do agree in spirit, however, that the captain should know how to do the things him or herself. If you're just paying someone to do something because you don't know how to do it then that's a problem because they aren't going to be with you when there is trouble.


I agree that we should be able to expect professionals to be as good as their word. Unfortunately, they often let us down.

My only point was that if

*"the vibration threatened to shake the boat apart"*

He should have noticed it before he signed off on the job.

Steve


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Some things can't be easily checked upon acceptance. For instance, when I commissioned my boat, I had an ABYC electrician install a few things... and some of his major mistakes were not readily apparent upon first glance... or second for that matter. 

However, severe engine vibration should have been obvious from the get go and an immediate red flag IMHO.


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

What most mechanics find to be a reasonable standard regarding their work on, say an engine rebuild, is that they are resposnsible for the oil leak while you are responsible for the damage caused by running out of oil when you failed to return it immediately upon noticing the leak. Maybe some relevance here?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Sway-

My sister once had a dealership change the oil in her car, and they forgot to put oil back in the car. She got about 1/8 mile away from the dealer when the engine seized. In that case, the dealer was responsible for replacing the engine, since it would be reasonable to expect the dealer to actually put oil in if you bring your car in for an oil change.  So, it really depends.



sailaway21 said:


> What most mechanics find to be a reasonable standard regarding their work on, say an engine rebuild, is that they are resposnsible for the oil leak while you are responsible for the damage caused by running out of oil when you failed to return it immediately upon noticing the leak. Maybe some relevance here?


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Don'tcha love it when someone makes a first post...gets 18 replies and doesn't show up again?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

camaraderie said:


> Don'tcha love it when someone makes a first post...gets 18 replies and doesn't show up again?


His one and only post. Maybe he's just overwhelmed with appreciation.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Speaking of PR tools like the internet ... I read once in (I think it was) the AARP magazine about a guy who sent his wife (now don't generalize!) to get 4 new car tires. She came home and they were not the ones he wanted. He went back to the shop and asked for them to be replaced. They refused; said they were already driven on and he'd have to pay full amount for them. 

Legally he really couldn't do much but after trying to convince the shop management for a refund or replacement, and they still refused, he finally decided to embarrass the shop. He had a bunch of copies made up of a flyer that said something like "if you REALLY want good tires and good service, I'll give you $10 to go across the street to this shop's competitors". And he was ready to give out the $10 to any customer walking into the shop. When he showed them to the shop owner, they finally agreed to replace the tires.

Sometimes "creative embarrassment" can work well.


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## tommyt (Sep 21, 2002)

Based on the details available of the wife tire story:

So, he sent his wife to get tires, obviously without good instruction. She did what she thought she was supposed to do, and the shop mounted the tires that she bought for him. Now it is the shops problem that he is upset with them for his and his wifes mistake. Personally, I think that takes a lot of gall to expect them to do anything for him. They are now USED tires. 

Would you buy them for regular price now? They can no longer sell them as new. I would think based on what he is asking for he probably would want them at half price if he was the next customer through the door. 

The shop should have made a consession to him: The next idiot that sends his wife to buy specific tires, that end up being the wrong tires because the idiot did not give good directions, we will call you and see if a switch can be made. We will have to charge both of you for mounting charges of course.

A pretty sad call on our standards today in my opinion. Bad service should never be acceptable. Bad customers unfortunately are part of the equation as well. If AARP, and I am a member, thought that this was appropriate that is sad as well. It says we are a bunch of whining old farts that can't think straight so someone else should fix the problem that we created. Not how I was taught to deal with people.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

tommyt said:


> Based on the details available of the wife tire story:
> 
> So, he sent his wife to get tires, obviously without good instruction. She did what she thought she was supposed to do, and the shop mounted the tires that she bought for him. Now it is the shops problem that he is upset with them for his and his wifes mistake. Personally, I think that takes a lot of gall to expect them to do anything for him. They are now USED tires.
> 
> ...


If I remember the article correctly, the wife requested the tires her husband asked for, but the shop talked her into buying something else that was not as good. So where's the fault? On both sides I guess. They should have listened to her request, or she should have insisted on what she originally asked for.


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## tommyt (Sep 21, 2002)

Nope, if the shop mounted the wrong tires, they eat the wrong tires. If they sold her something that he did not want, that is her problem...not theirs. If she was sent for bread and came home with milk, should the grocery be at fault?

Unfortunately, I see people unhappy about their choices too often expecting others to fix their problems for them. .


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## Gramp34 (Oct 5, 2006)

mrsadm said:


> Sometimes "creative embarrassment" can work well.


I think I'd call that "extortion" of the tire dealer. Clearly either hubby didn't tell his wife what tires to buy, or wifey didn't listen.

The tire dealer sold wifey the tires she asked for. Presumably she wasn't mentally incompetent, and was able to enter into a legal contract to buy the tires.

Once hubby came back the tires were used. If the dealer took them back legally he could only sell them again as used tires. That'd be an expensive hit to take because a customer and their spouse don't talk to each other.

Why should the dealer give a full refund? "Either you give me a refund, or I'll ruin your business" says the husband. Blackmail, no?

Like you say, *legally* there was nothing the husband could do.

I guess I'm really surprised of how many people have jumped on the Blacklist This Marina bandwagon.

Here's what I see:

A foreign transient boater shows up at Doral Marine Resort and signs a contract to put a new engine in his boat. Doral does the work. The transient boater takes delivery of the boat and sails off out of the country.

Guess what? The transient boater hasn't paid his bill. How could this be? Doral must have extended him credit on the repair work. Does anyone know of any boatyard that would let a transient boater from another country sail away without having paid their bill in full? I don't. I'd call this pretty darn generous of Doral.

So, after the boater does the first rudimentary test of of the engine, he finds a problem and calls Doral. I expect most boatyards would say "bring it back and we'll fix it." What did Doral say? "Take it to your marina and have them check it." I can't imagine Lawson911 would have been shy to tell us if Doral didn't pay the bill from the other yard, so not only did Doral allow him to use the yard of his choice, but they obviously paid the bills.

So Lawson911 had the engine realigned, probably end of June, early July by his description. Then he said:


> Alignment only helped a bit, so at the end of the season Doral had my marina drop the rudder and pull the shaft.


Thinking about this:
1) He continued to use the boat until "the end of the season", which would have been another four months.
2) "Alignment only helped a bit". If so, and the problem was as bad as he would like us to believe, how on earth could he have used his boat for four months like this? Or, maybe the vibration wasn't so bad?
3) "Doral had my marina drop the rudder and pull the shaft." Sure sounds like Doral was still paying to resolve this problem.

If Lawson911 had been given 30 days to settle his bill, here he would have been three months behind in paying that debt to Doral. Even with this customer being three months behind Doral was still paying Lawson911's marina to work on his boat.

So Doral takes the shaft for repair four months after Lawson911 had sailed away from their dock. Did Lawson911 hit a log during those four months? Did his marina bend the shaft while hauling the boat? Doral easily could have disputed responsibility for this bent shaft, but they didn't. They paid another marina to pull the shaft and they took it back for repair. And for a customer who's three months overdue on his bill. Again, this seem pretty generous to me.

Next we hear is April. The bill would now be about 9 months overdue. Doral does fix the shaft but now says "Give us our money, or you are not getting your shaft and prop back." Imagine! The nerve of those guys, demanding their money before doing any more work for Lawson911! When he's only 9 months overdue on his bill and openly refusing to pay it.

Meanwhile it's clear that Lawson911 never bothered to read or understand the contract either before or after he signed.

He couldn't be bothered to check the new engine before sailing away with it.

Although he moans about how bad the job was done, he did use the boat for four months afterwards so it obviously wasn't that bad.

He arbitrarily decided he wasn't going to pay 20% of his bill. It took Doral 11 months, but they've finally had to go to court to collect. Lawson911's response? Investigate counter-suing Doral and publicly slagging them.

It's clear to me that Doral Marine Resort has bent over backwards to help this guy. They didn't have to extend him credit, but they did. They didn't have to pay for him to take his boat to the marina of his choice for warranty work, but they did. They didn't have to keep paying after he was three months in arrears on his bill, but they did. They didn't have to give him almost a year to pay his bill before trying to collect, but they did.

Anybody know of any other boatyards that would do this much for a deadbeat customer? I don't.

So I'm afraid I don't have much sympathy for Lawson911's plight. Seems to me it's entirely self inflicted.

But I am surprised at how many people are happy to suggest suing, blacklisting and/or publicly embarrassing this boatyard based on the information presented.

Cheers,

Tim


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Unfortunately, a lot of people don't seem to understand that there is a customer responsibility to the store as well as one from the store to the vendor.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

You might want to actually read the first post.

In it, he clearly states that he went to Doral, they promised him a *repair turnaround of 7-10 days, but took TWO MONTHS.* Also, *the issue was detected on the MAIDEN VOYAGE of the boat, not FOUR MONTHS later as you describe*. I highlighted the relevant part of the OP for you. T*he engine and transmission installed by DORAL had LESS THAN ONE HOUR RUNNING TIME when the problem was diagnosed. * *The four months probably refers to the amount of time it took DORAL to straighten the bent shaft. *



> Last May I lost the engine in my Dufour 39 and needed a replacement. I contacted Doral, and they said they had an engine in stock, the new Yanmar 4JH4AE, and *they could complete the work in 7-10 days. Two months later I got the boat. On my maiden voyage across Georgian Bay I tried to use the engine. At any RPM above 1000 the vibration threatened to shake the boat apart.*





Gramp34 said:


> I think I'd call that "extortion" of the tire dealer. Clearly either hubby didn't tell his wife what tires to buy, or wifey didn't listen.
> 
> The tire dealer sold wifey the tires she asked for. Presumably she wasn't mentally incompetent, and was able to enter into a legal contract to buy the tires.
> 
> ...


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## Gramp34 (Oct 5, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> You might want to actually read the first post.
> 
> In it, he clearly states that he went to Doral, they promised him a *repair turnaround of 7-10 days, but took TWO MONTHS.*


Why did it take two months? Did he tell them "I'm out of the country and won't be back until the end of June so I won't need it until then"? Did he call them on Day 8, Day 9, Day 10..... and get a runaround each time? There's critical information missing here. I won't jump to any conclusions on this issue until I see some more information.

Unfortunately Lawson911 doesn't want to enlighten us.



> Also, *the issue was detected on the MAIDEN VOYAGE of the boat, not FOUR MONTHS later as you describe*.


Vibration was detected on the maiden voyage. Engine prop/shaft misalignment was detected and fixed at the marina he stopped at (and which Doral apparently paid for).

The bent shaft was not detected until Doral paid Lawson911's marina to pull the prop and shaft at the end of the season.



> I highlighted the relevant part of the OP for you. T*he engine and transmission installed by DORAL had LESS THAN ONE HOUR RUNNING TIME when the problem was diagnosed. *


You are right here. I did miss that comment.

But then it begs the question, why, exactly, didn't Lawson911 do anything in the mean time? He was holding back 20% of his bill. Why didn't he hire his marina to fix the problem right away, subtract that cost from the 20%, then remit the remainder to Doral?

The only thing I can think of is he's playing the victim here. He can rationalize not paying his bill because he didn't get use of his boat. Unfortunately for him, the law requires people to mitigate damages:

_" A person who claims damages as a result of an alleged wrongful act on the part of another has a duty under the law to "mitigate" those damages; that is, to take advantage of any reasonable opportunity he may have had under the circumstances to reduce or minimize the loss or damage. "_​
He didn't use his boat because he decided not to use the boat. He shirked his responsibility to mitigate damages here.



> *The four months probably refers to the amount of time it took DORAL to straighten the bent shaft. *


"Alignment only helped a bit, *so at the end of the season* Doral had my marina drop the rudder and pull the shaft. "​
End of season on Lake Huron would be about October/November. If he was launched at the end of June, four months would have been the time until the shaft was pulled.

"When I found out I called to complain, *we are in April*, sailing starts in May what are you guys doing. *At this point Doral had the shaft repaired*"​
At this point Lawson911 was about 9 months past due on his bill.

Do you expect the work order Lawson911 signed said he could hold back 20% until he felt like paying? I don't, and he's not saying.

Let me ask you, would you do any more work for a customer who had stiffed you for thousands until that customer paid his bill?

Cheers,

Tim


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## Gramp34 (Oct 5, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> T*he engine and transmission installed by DORAL had LESS THAN ONE HOUR RUNNING TIME when the problem was diagnosed. *


Actually, he said less than an hour of running time when the shaft was pulled.

Oh, here's something maybe you could explain to me SD: Lawson911 told us

"On my maiden voyage across Georgian Bay I tried to use the engine. At any RPM above 1000 the vibration threatened to shake the boat apart. Out of sight of land, no wind, rookie crew, no fun. When we finally arrived at land, not our final destination, as we did not have the speed nessesary to reach, I called the marina to let them know the situation."​
Imagine you're on Georgian Bay out of sight of land and you were to motor at idle speed until you reached a marina.

Later we're told:

"...so at the end of the season Doral had my marina drop the rudder and pull the shaft. Turns out the shaft was bent, in the centre. This by the way was a brand new shaft with less than an hour of running time."​
Less than an hour of running time? After motoring over the horizon on Georgian Bay at idle speed? Good God those Dufour 39s must have some amazing hull speeds!

I'm afraid I'm not smart enough to figure this one out. You suppose his Dufour is a multihull? 

Cheers,

Tim


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## cnc33voodoo (May 15, 2008)

ill be docking at doral this weekend.
maybe ill see his boat there.


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

We have incomplete information on the story. We also have only one side of the story. That being said, how many of you out there, among those who are professionals, let the customer do the evaluation of the work?

If your auto mechanic does a brake job does he drive the car afterwards? If your HVAC service installs a new furnace or a/c system do they run it first? If the temperature is below 60 degrees and they can't run the a/c for evaluation purposes, do they come back in the spring on the first warm day?

Every ship I was ever on, had either a seatrial or an alongside test, whichever was appropriate for a given repair prior to any pronouncement by the shipyard that the job was complete.

As can be seen, I'm having a bit of difficulty here in understanding the basis upon which Doral decided that the job was done and completed to their standards. Obviously the customer is somewhat the final arbiter of the services rendered but most professionals don't rely on customer satisfaction as their standard of professional service. Customers are quite capable of accepting substandard work unknowingly. After all, if they were professionals and knew the difference between quality work and substandard work they'd probably be doing the job themselves.

to carry the auto illustration just a bit further; most states have a law that prevents a mechanic from releasing an unsafe car to a customer regardless of what the customer may instruct. If the car has unsafe brakes the customer may have it towed away but the mechanic cannot release it to him for drive away.

When I hire a pro I expect him to do a pro job and, if there are some difficulties in achieving that level of work or the job just naturally demands either a compromise in the end result or further unexpected work needs to be done I expect to either be informed as the job progresses or, at a minimum, informed upon completion. What I do not expect is that I will be required to evaluate the effectiveness of the repair or work based upon my own, possibly limited, knowledge. If the customer elects to ignore my advise and request for further repair to make the relavent system whole I get things in writing so that I am protected and so the customer knows that, in my opinion, there are deficiencies.

Now we don't know the whole story and, in any event, have only one side of it. That being the case we should withhold judgement for either party in the matter.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

So they have courts and all in Canada, eh? [vbg]

Best to make an appointment with a local lawyer (barrister?) and find out what the laws are for a shop lien, or workman's lien, or whatever this is precisely called up there. Gather up all your papers, because sadly "he said she said" doesn't carry much weight in courts, so a lot will depend on what wirtings you each have, and what burdens of proof you each have.

If the marina has a work order or contract, and it complies with the laws, you may be stuck unless you can show in writing that you made a timely protest of the problem. Papers or telephone calling records from the time of the failure may be of some help as well--bring the lawyer anything you have that documents your claims.

I'd expect that first consulation to cost less then $100, and call it a very sound investment.


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## knothead (Apr 9, 2003)

Sailaway, 
You make a very good point. 
As a business man, I go over everything with my customers before I even present them with a bill. I explain what I found, any complications I may have run into, what maintenance they should perform etc.

Unfortunately, it doesn't seem like we will be getting the whole story because Lawson911 hasn't chosen to elaborate.

But again, I go back to fact that Lawson911 states *"On my maiden voyage across Georgian Bay I tried to use the engine. At any RPM above 1000 the vibration threatened to shake the boat apart."*
I agree that the company should have noticed this. Can't imagine why they didn't. I would like to hear their side of the story.
But the fact remains that Lawson911 accepted the vessel and then proceeded to sail "*Out of sight of land" *without ever revving the engine up over 1000.
Sorry, but that just doesn't sound right.

Steve


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## cnc33voodoo (May 15, 2008)

hellosailor said:


> So they have courts and all in Canada, eh? [vbg]
> 
> Best to make an appointment with a local lawyer (barrister?) and find out what the laws are for a shop lien, or workman's lien, or whatever this is precisely called up there. Gather up all your papers, because sadly "he said she said" doesn't carry much weight in courts, so a lot will depend on what wirtings you each have, and what burdens of proof you each have.
> 
> ...


yeah, we also have phones,electricity oh.. and health care.

as far as doral goes they are the biggest marine resort in the area and from hearing the story i have to add that to cross georgean bay from doral it would take at least 2 hours just to get into open water on the other side of the islands.
i cant see a guy traveling that far without using his engine long enough to notice a problem.especially if he had a place to be on time, which he stated he did and fell short of.
i also cant see doral releasing a boat without getting paid and closing off the work order.
the work order MUST also state a break down of all the parts,labour and work involved including that a sea trial was done to check the work.
if they didnt document the above they may as well not waiste their time in court.
if they did and his signature and hull # is on the repair order they could put a lein against his boat if they dont recieve payment.
which makes me wonder why they didnt already do this.
by not paying he made the situation worse.
he should have paid and documented that a sea trial was pending.
then he should have turned right back around and had every issue documented on the r/o, dated and signed.
if they didnt repair the problem promptly and to his satisfaction then he could have had the boat taken to a third party repair shop, repaired properly and taken THEM to court for reimbusement of their mistakes,and all other related costs.
if he signed off on the work order and hasnt paid.thats all the court will care about.
any shop, marine or automotive should be well aware of the importance of documentation on a work order as it is the contract between the two parties and the only document that matters in court.
i have seen this happen in my line of work many times and been to court for it aswell(as a withness).documentation is your only defense.
but who really knows what happened here.


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## Gramp34 (Oct 5, 2006)

'Been watching CSI again. Let's see. We were told:
"Turns out the shaft was bent, in the centre."​
Here's the only picture I could find showing the prop shaft on a Dufour 39:










You can just make out the shaft and strut. The engine on these boats was under the companionway steps, so there isn't much shaft inside the boat.

The center of the shaft will then be in the exposed part between where it comes through the shaft log in the hull and the strut.

To bend it there must mean a load was applied there. If the shaft was loaded at the ends, it would have bent at the first hard spot it encountered, either the strut at the prop end, or the shaft log at the engine end.

How much force would this take? The new Yanmar 4JH4AE is a 54hp engine. Shaft size would be about 1-1/8", or maybe 1-1/4". Judging from the photo I'd guess the span between the shaft log and strut is about 18".

(tech mode on)
Let's assume the shaft was made from 1-1/8" Aqualoy 22 and loaded at a point in the center of this span. As a simply supported beam, I = 0.0786 in^4, L = 18", c = 0.5625", Sy = 130000 psi.

Load to yield is 4*Sy*I/(c*L) = 4,040 pounds.

If the shaft was loaded uniformly over that 18" instead of at a single point, load to yield is double, or 8,080 pounds.
(tech mode off)

4000 pounds to bend that shaft by loading at a point in the middle. Is it likely a mechanic installing an engine could do that? I can't see how.

A Dufour 39's displacement is listed as 14,990 lbs. If, let's say, it was picked up by a travelift, each strap would carry about 7,500 lbs, more or less.

Surprisingly close to the 8,080 lb uniformly distributed load required to bend the shaft, eh?

I say the prime suspects are the travelift crew.

Lawson911's new Max-Prop would have had to have its pitch set by doing a series of trials in the water. I expect the boat was sea trialed by the mechanic, who then signed off the job was done right.

Afterwards the travelift crew must have picked up the boat with a strap on the prop shaft and caused the bend.

That first marina he stopped at who realigned the engine to the shaft must not have turned the shaft while doing it. The bent shaft would have caused the flange to wobble if the shaft was turned.

(Another mystery is why he didn't test the engine immediately after that alignment job was done and bring the boat right back, but I guess we'll never know.)

Cheers,

Tim


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## tommyt (Sep 21, 2002)

Whose at fault, I don't have a clue. Could be the mechanic, could be the lift crew, could be he hit a log or something.

Most Yanmar's idle at 800-1000 RPM in my experience. In getting out of that marina I would think that the boat would have been pushed over 1000 RPM just getting away. Certainly in light wind it would seem that it would have been used above 1000 RPM before getting to the middle of Georgian Bay. That is one very big Bay.
Why it was not caught before leaving the marina is my second biggest question. My first is, why would anyone have that kind of work done and not test it with a mechanic or service manager aboard? Tight schedules should never result in putting yourself or your crew at risk.

Hope everything works out for the correct parties. Whoever they may be. sounds like lawyers to me.


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## pigslo (Nov 22, 2004)

Something smells here and does not add up. Too many holes in the story. I think it's a troll. Perhaps a disgruntled ex-employee.
pigslo


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## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

Im starting to agree...hes never posted again to answer any of thease questions.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

Tell them that you have posted a question on SailNet and ask them to post their side of the story. Once both sides have been aired you could agree to abide by whatever a sailnet vote says is fair.
If I was a marina owner i would jump at at chance to clear my name.
Usually this suff is settled in the middle somewhere.

It will be great advertizing for them to make you happy publicly.
SailNet for mediation. New service?


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

davidpm said:


> Tell them that you have posted a question on SailNet and ask them to post their side of the story.


Not likely. First thing any lawyer tells their client is "shut up." My guess is the business in question already has legal counsel and they know enough to keep their collective lip buttoned.

I'm beginning to wonder about the legitimacy of the OP, myself.

Jim


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

SEMIJim said:


> Not likely. First thing any lawyer tells their client is "shut up." My guess is the business in question already has legal counsel and they know enough to keep their collective lip buttoned.
> 
> I'm beginning to wonder about the legitimacy of the OP, myself.
> 
> Jim


I was figuring that the few thou involved is not worth a lawyer.

My guess is that they would be glad to return the prop and shaft they just want the rest of the money. They already lost on this job and just donn't want to lose another few bills.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

I wouldn't waste any more time on this one-post wonder until he comes back and answers a few of the legitimate questions that have been intelligently raised.


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

JohnRPollard said:


> I wouldn't waste any more time on this one-post wonder until he comes back and answers a few of the legitimate questions that have been intelligently raised.


I'd second that thought.


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## Lawson911 (Apr 30, 2007)

Guys, again I am really sorry for not getting back sooner. My job requires trips into the bush in Northern Ontario. No cel phones, certainly no computers. I am back now and will respond in a timely fashion. Anyone get the feeling Gramp 34 works for Doral. Not that it matters, he is bringing up a lot of good points that need clarification. When I refered to 1 hour of running time on the shaft, what I meant was that this shaft was brand new, and was installed in my boat with the old engine, a volvo MD11.* If I had a bent shaft and the shaft was 20 years old, I would not have much of a case. This shaft was reused, with the new engine instalation, but it had to be modified by Doral, who sent it to a machine shop. So somewhere between removing my old engine, reistalling a new engine, sending the shaft out for cutting and a keyway, my new shaft with a hour of running time on it was bent. The shaft was bent in the centre, not at the end, no amount of rock hitting is going to bend a shaft in the middle. Doral did make an effort to solve the problem, which at the time we did not know what it could be. This was when we found that not only did they not water test their installation, they also did not align the shaft to the engine. This did not solve the problem, but it took another week or two away from sailing season. Next they pulled the boat to check the prop, a maxi prop, to make sure they had reassembled this properly, which they had. Again another week of sailing missed. This left us with the conclusion, that the only thing left was the shaft. Removing the shaft at this point in July would have completely killed the rest of the season, so we decided to wait until October. In the meantime I continued to pay Doral, based on work performed to eliminate potential issues. I gave them an additional $8,000 to cover off all their parts costs and labour costs. What I held back was approx. $4,000 of profit. Gramps 34, you make a big assumption in that I continued to use the boat. In fact my boat never left the marina for the rest of the season. I used my boat as a floating cottage, and puttered around in the Dingy. I did not feel at all comfortable sailing a 40 ft boat with an engine I could not use, especially as a rookie sailor. I will interupt all of you by saying, I know the boat is to big as a starter boat, but I am trying to avoid two foot itis. So basically I lost all of last year, and now I am loosing a good part of this year, all for a job that should have taken a week to 10 days. Gramps final part about mitigating damages is why I purchased a new prop and shaft, to get my sailing season going. It costs about $3,000 per week to rent a 40ft boat is Georgian Bay. If I had to rent a boat while mine is down, it does not take long to cover the cost of a new shaft and prop


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## knothead (Apr 9, 2003)

Lawson, 
Welcome back. I am just going to reiterate my initial question.

Steve

* "I just have one question. Why wasn't the vibration noticed upon receipt of the boat after the installation?
I would think that after having a new engine installed you would have put it though it's paces before heading out of sight of land."

"the vibration threatened to shake the boat apart"

He should have noticed it before he signed off on the job.*


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Lawson,
Do us a favor. I know it's time consuming but I'd request that you outline your story and lay it down in total for us once again. Between the two posts, I'm getting confused. Try to make it complete in terms of, I did this, then they did that, and next we did such and such. It's tough to get the chronology as it is now.


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## Lawson911 (Apr 30, 2007)

Sorry, I think I may have double posted by mistake


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## Lawson911 (Apr 30, 2007)

Looks like my post went MIA.Sailaway I will try to set out what happened which will answer Knotheads question. Brief overview. I contacted Doral to get a quote on purchase and install of a new Yanmar engine. My boat was at Hindson Marina, having been shipped their from Annapolis. I* got a quote from Hindson for a Volvo engine, but after some research I decided to go with Yanmar instead. Doral was the closest dealer. My boat only needed the three cylinder version of the engine, but the Yanmar 4JH4AE has almost the identical footprint, mounting locations and weight as my old Volvo MD11. I figured this would make installation easier. Exhaust is on the same side as well. Doral said they would not quote without looking at the boat, so I paid $200 to have it towed to their dealership. A few days later the assistant manager called and said there was an new engine if Toronto, and if we went ahead he could have the boat turned around in 7-10 days. Our manager will call with the final quote when he is back next week. I proceeded and purchased the engine. When the manager retured he informed me that Doral does not give quotes on engine installs, to many variables. By this point the work was already in progress, so I did not have much choice but to continue. He gave me assurances that they were competative. I saw no reason not to believe him. 10 days turned into nearly 2 months, I called twice a week, kept getting the "we are waiting for parts". Finally I recieved a call, "your boat is ready". I made an appointment to meet at 3.00 pm on Thursday. I arrived with my wife, and my sailing partner. There was no one from Doral available. The mechanic had gone on vacation, and the service manager was not there. This was the only time my partner was available, so we decided to continue with our plan. We left the marina Friday morning, still with no contact from Doral, and with no opportunity to talk to anyone about the install, much less sign off. I figured I would settle up the final bill on Monday, by phone. We motored out of the marina at about 600 RMP. As soon as we cleared the docks I put the sails up. Quite frankly the idea of a sea trial of the engine did not occur to me. This was my first boat, and this was the first time I was sailing it. My sailing partner turned out to have even less experience than me. He told me he could sail, but I knew i was in trouble when he did not know how to operate a winch. All his sailing had been done on lazers. In hindesite I know I made several errors, that a more experienced skipper would not have. We sailed for two days, reaching Point of Barrel on Saturday night. Sunday left a straight shot across Georgian Bay to Little Current. The winds were great for about 1-2 hours and then died. It was at this point we started up the engine and the fun began. We could not make Little Current, as at anything over 1000 RMP the engine started shaking. We got as far as Kilarney, and I placed a call to Doral the following morning. I gave them the option to come to the boat. It would be sitting in Kilarney for the week. They told me to continue to my marina and have them look at it. We found that the engine had not been aligned, a fairly major error, and that they had not conducted a sea trial, an even bigger error. Doral paid my marina to have the allignment done . We then checked the prop for proper installation, which Doral covered. As they eliminated possible problems, I continued to pay down my balance owing. From the time I left their marina, and discovered the problem I paid an additional approx. $8,000 to them, based on good faith. We eliminated everything expect the prop shaft. By this time I had lost most of the sailing season, and removing the shaft would have killed the rest of the summer, so we decided to wait until the fall. I had a nice floating cottage for last years season. I did not feel comfortable sailing with a vibrating engine, so the boat sat in the water at the marina, and I played around with my dingy. In November Doral contracted my marina to drop the rudder and pull the shaft. I paid an additional $1,000 for heated storage ( tough to work on a boat in 30 below temperatures). The shaft was sent out for inspection and was found to be bent in the middle. Great I though, we have found the problem. Somewhere between Doral pulling my boat out of the water, removing the old engine with the shaft in place, having the shaft cut to length, and a keyway installed to fit the new coupler, reinstalling the new engine, with the shaft in place, one of their operations bent my shaft.* Fix it, install it and we should be good to go. That was November. Come April the shaft had still not been repaired, no one had given authorization to do the work. When I called to ask for an explanation I was given none. A short time later I recieve an E-mail demanding payment in full. After my initial E-mail, Doral had paid for the shaft repair, and taken possesion of my shaft, propeller and coupling. Pay us in full, or you do not get your shaft and prop back. They have also refused to cover my marinas costs to drop the rudder and pull the shaft, even though it was Doral that contracted this work. I will have to pay for this on Dorals behalf until this is resolved. My shaft was purchased new, and* was installed on my boat in Annapolis, just before I shipped it to Canada. I had a chance to test the boat with this shaft, along with several friends that own their own boats. There was no indication of any vibration at any speed. In the end I would have been happy to pay the bill in full, even at the 25% surcharge in labour rate over my own marina, who are also a Yanmar dealer if the work had been performed properly. I held back just enough money to cover the costs of completing the repair. Not only did Doral not complete the work, they have conducted themselves in a way that jepordises this years sailing season. If they had an issue with the bent shaft it should have been brought up in November. One way or another it would have been resolved by this May when sailing season started. As it stands my boat is on the hard, and sailing this year is starting to look doubtful


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

Tough one.

Now that you are already in this spot, if I were you I don't know what I would do. I'd probably pay the money to keep up my part of the bargain and then fight to have them make good on what they promised. Or if that looked like it was going to be throwing good money after bad it might not even be worth it.

I think the most important thing is to avoid getting into a situation like that to begin with, though of course that doesn't help you now. I've become very cautious about having mechanics do work for me because through experience they have trained me to be cautious - too many times the work hasn't been good, the prices too high, their terms too unreasonable, etc, and now I am at the point where I don't feel comfortable unless I control the work myself. Mechanics are more like hourly workers to me now, it's just not worth it to let them have control of the job anymore. If I have the time I prefer to just pay a shop to do very specific things with up front agreements on exactly what it is going to cost and do at least part of the work myself. If you keep the shop working for you instead of working for itself it usually works out better. That is to say - if you pay a welder to weld two pieces of metal together it's going to cost you a lot less money than if you pay a welder to make something for you, even if making it only requires welding two pieces of metal together. It's really better to keep the mechanics out of your decision making process as much as possible, I think, and never lose control of what is going on. As soon as you lose control of the job, you've lost control of the price ...


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## theartfuldodger (Sep 4, 2006)

Being I was for a very long time a resident of the Midland, Pentang area where Doral is, it goes without saying if you were a local not to go there. They don't have a very good track record. I also will report, as I know the techs and would think twice having them work on my boat, as have had several dealings with them, and only because my clients insisted. I could on with many comments but not very good karma, my only suggestion is if you get a chance talk with some of the other marina's, as well the Midland sailing club you might be able to get the info you need to counter suit. I will just say in passing they are experienced at going to court, if you understand my drift.


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## cnc33voodoo (May 15, 2008)

if it were me, i would just get the boat fixed at my own expense and be done with this trainwreck.
call it a loss, get your boat in the water and get back to sailing.
tell them they can keep your shaft- why would you even want it back after its been hacked?
if what you say is true and have proper documentation to back you up, you have nothing to worry about.
if i were you i would be in contact with the better buisness beurau and see where you stand.
btw...
how did you "loose your engine" and know the shaft was good prior to repairs if your first time sailing the boat was after doral worked on it?
and secondly, what are you doing sailing a 40 foot boat into georgean bay if you or your crew have no experience? i think i would have turned right back around as soon as i saw my "sailing partner" not understanding how to use a winch.
2 foot fever has nothing to do with value of your own life and safety of other boats on the water.
just doesnt add up.sorry.


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Thanks for the chronological update, Lawson. You're obviously regretting not doing a sea-trial and having then turned right about and returning but that's spilt milk isn't it? It sounds to me like you've done everything since according to Hoyle. I see little alternative but to contact an attorney at this point. You need that good professional legal advise that Cam mentioned some time ago. Specifically whether or not to have others complete the work and risk collecting the cost from Doral or continuing to try to deal with them to make the job right. Given the above post I'd say that this is another case where determining the reputation of a business is of more importance than getting the work done quickly. I wish you the best of luck and my commiseration.


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## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

wind_magic said:


> Tough one.
> 
> Now that you are already in this spot, if I were you I don't know what I would do. I'd probably pay the money to keep up my part of the bargain and then fight to have them make good on what they promised. Or if that looked like it was going to be throwing good money after bad it might not even be worth it.
> 
> I think the most important thing is to avoid getting into a situation like that to begin with, though of course that doesn't help you now. I've become very cautious about having mechanics do work for me because through experience they have trained me to be cautious - too many times the work hasn't been good, the prices too high, their terms too unreasonable, etc, and now I am at the point where I don't feel comfortable unless I control the work myself. Mechanics are more like hourly workers to me now, it's just not worth it to let them have control of the job anymore. If I have the time I prefer to just pay a shop to do very specific things with up front agreements on exactly what it is going to cost and do at least part of the work myself. If you keep the shop working for you instead of working for itself it usually works out better. That is to say - if you pay a welder to weld two pieces of metal together it's going to cost you a lot less money than if you pay a welder to make something for you, even if making it only requires welding two pieces of metal together. It's really better to keep the mechanics out of your decision making process as much as possible, I think, and never lose control of what is going on. As soon as you lose control of the job, you've lost control of the price ...


Wind...I could have not said this any better...It's now my mode of operation also..


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## Boasun (Feb 10, 2007)

If nothing else: This thread is an education in marine business law and what is required to protect yourself.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

Lawson911 said:


> ... We motored out of the marina at about 600 RMP. As soon as we cleared the docks I put the sails up. Quite frankly the idea of a sea trial of the engine did not occur to me. This was my first boat, and this was the first time I was sailing it. My sailing partner turned out to have even less experience than me. He told me he could sail, but I knew i was in trouble when he did not know how to operate a winch. All his sailing had been done on lazers. In hindesite I know I made several errors, that a more experienced skipper would not have. We sailed for two days, reaching Point of Barrel on Saturday night. Sunday left a straight shot across Georgian Bay to Little Current. The winds were great for about 1-2 hours and then died. It was at this point we started up the engine and the fun began...


Lawson,

I am sorry to hear how badly things have gone for you in your first sailboat-ownership experience. In your place, I too would be EXTREMELY frustrated/aggravated. At this point, I would suggest that you follow Sailaway's sage advice and turn this dispute over to a competent attorney. Get your boat fixed somewhere else and go sailing so this fiasco doesn't ruin another sailing season. You'll feel a lot better if only you can get out and enjoy a few broad reaches this summer.

Forgive me, but I cannot resist the opportunity to editorialize further, if only that future novices might benefit from your misfortune.

Yours is a true cautionary tale of maintenance woe. From the very first step of towing your boat to an unfamiliar marina for service, without any firm quote in hand, right down to sailing away without a proper sea trial, your story reads like a slow motion train wreck: You relate a series of one bad decision followed by another. PLEASE don't take this as a personal attack -- clearly your near total inexperience left you vulnerable to poor choices and their consequences. It's refreshing in this culture of "blame" that you yourself acknowledged these missteps.

It's also probable that the marina in question recognized your inexperience and took advantage of it. No question, such conduct is deplorable, but there are similar business models running all over the place (consider how many women and even many men feel when they take their car to the dealership for service --- taken!)

While it seems apparent that this disreputable marina "shafted" you (sorry, I couldn't resist  ), in some respects you've been lucky thus far (trying to look on the bright side here ). I say "lucky" because, despite undertaking a lengthy voyage with inexperienced captain and crew, and serious mechanical difficulties, you and your boat made it safely back to homeport. Other sailors, with more experience and shipshape vessels, have been less fortunate.

Do consider, as others have suggested, that jumping into a 40-footer as a novice may have been your initial mistake. There are many reasons to start off with a smaller boat -- among other things they are generally easier to manage under sail and to learn the art of sailing and seamanship, as well as good platforms to cut one's teeth in the maintenance realm-- but one of the biggest reasons is that the inevitable mistakes that all novices make are less costly. Hoping to by-pass two- or three-foot-itis by going large at the outset does have consequences. Fortunately for you, and not to trivialize the hit to your wallet, but your biggest set-backs thus far have been monetary and lost enjoyment of your boat. Could have been much worse.

I wish you luck in getting this resolved.


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## Gramp34 (Oct 5, 2006)

Lawson911 said:


> Anyone get the feeling Gramp 34 works for Doral.


Believe it or not, I don't have any connection with them whatsoever.

You have provided quite a bit of clarification now. Bottom line is that you need a lawyer to look at the evidence and advise you on your chances in court. Write out the timeline and bring every piece of paper you've got to that meeting. Or better yet, give it to the lawyer before you meet so he can go through it carefully before talking to you.

They have a responsibility to do a "good and workmanlike" job on your boat. If you can show they didn't test the installation, that's a big strike against them. If they can show you signed off when you picked up the boat, that's a big strike against you. And so on.

Your feathering Max-Prop has pitch adjustments for both forward and reverse that would need to be made for the new engine. Your old Volvo was 25 hp, the new Yanmar is 54 hp. Big difference. Sounds like the old prop was reused? I'd be surprised if there would be enough pitch adjustment available in the prop. In any event, the only way to test the prop to pitch it right is to run the boat in the water.

If you ever get into such a major repair situation again, think about hiring a surveyor to look after your interests. The surveyor can inspect work and give a professional opinion on the job, and can test systems to make sure everything works. You pay the surveyor, but if you're not familiar with boat mechanical work it's peace of mind you're buying. A surveyor will also give you a good idea of the costs and time required to get a repair done.

Taking beginning and intermediate keelboat courses is probably worth looking into, too. It's a lot less costly than learning from making your own mistakes. And there are a lot of potential mistakes in sailing that can be very costly.

Good luck,

Tim


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## funsailthekeys (May 15, 2008)

Maybe this will help. ALL Yanmar engines when installed must be inspected and signed off by a authorized yanmar service provider, IF this is not done(the form is in the owners manual, one copy for you) Then the install is NOT complete. We have 14 in our fleet, so I know by experience. Good luck.


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## Lawson911 (Apr 30, 2007)

To: the artfuldodger. This is the good stuff I was looking for. I will definitely call the yatch club and talk to the guys. My experience at Hindson was very good, and I would have gone with them except I really wanted a Yanmar over the Volvo. The article Gramp34 posted on the possible bending of the shaft from the travellift was also excellent, again thanks. So these guys have lots of experience going to court. I wonder if there is a way to find out how many times they have gone?
Another question, if you guys don't mind. Is a straightened shaft as good as a new one. I had heard that sometimes stainless steel develops a memory and even though it is straightened after being bent, it can gradually creep back to it's slightly bent condition, in this case causing a vibration to reappear down the road.


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## Lawson911 (Apr 30, 2007)

to: cnc33voodoo: You know its amazing in hindsite the problems and situations you can get yourself into. To answer your questions, When I bought the boat in Annapolis I had a proffessional survery done (did one thing right) it told me the engine might be weak, and the shaft was done, it was a bronze job. I hired a marine mechanic to complete most of the recommended repairs in Annapolis, including the purchase and installation of* a new shaft. My original intention was to sail the boat up with this mechanic, who was also a qualified sea captain. As reality set in, I realized I could not take 3-4 week off work to do this, so I hired a transport and had the boat dropped off in Midland. On three seperate weekends I had a different crew with me, to help sail the boat back. All these guys were experienced, a couple having sailed all the way to the Carribean. On each of these weekends, with me paying for all the food, and several bottles of good wine,* we would run into a glitch. One weekend the water pump let go, we fixed it, ran the boat for an hour, but by then we had lost the window of opportunity. After 3 weeks of this my wife finally said "get a new engine and be done with it" famous last words. So I had several guys running the boat, with the new shaft, but the old engine, and everything was fine, as a matter of fact I have all their sworn statements to that effect. My last crew member was a friend of a friend. All my guys were now out sailing their own boats, they had given me their various weekends and I did not want to ask for more. I did not find out about his inexperience until well underway, and there was just no way I was going back to that marina. We stayed in sight of land all the way the first two days, it was only the last day, with 55 miles across open water that the wind decided to call it quits. As for this situation I am moving ahead. I now have a new shaft and prop, which I will install next week. But I also feel an obligation to proceed with this, I feel I have a legitimate case, and I have the resources and temperment to follow this through. I think most companies play the odds that people will give up over the aggravation, me, I am used to being aggravated. I sell Cat construction equipment to a not always pleasant clientel, so I am used to conflict. The person I really feel sorry for is my poor wife. For 2 seasons now, all she has seen is aggravation and money going out the window. I will keep you all posted as this progresses. Next week I submit my defense and my countersuit


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

Lawson911 said:


> Another question, if you guys don't mind. Is a straightened shaft as good as a new one. I had heard that sometimes stainless steel develops a memory and even though it is straightened after being bent, it can gradually creep back to it's slightly bent condition, in this case causing a vibration to reappear down the road.


Lawson,

After all you've been through on this, it would seem pound foolish to put in a repaired rather than a new shaft. There is a lot of cost and aggravation involved in a pulling a shaft -- best to get a new one in there and be done with it.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Lawson, I'd suspect a new shaft might be cheaper than repairing the existing one. In the elevator and printing trades, they routinely resurface and straighten shafts and rollers of all kinds and I suspect we'd both think the workings of an elevator to be more critical than a prop shaft under a boat. But simply locating a shop that does that work, inlcuding any retempering of the metal if necessary, may be harder (and more costly for shipping) than ordering a new one. You'd have to price it both ways, locally.

If your local court records are computerized--it is amazing what a reference librarian at your local library can turn up. In the US, you'd start by asking a court clerk or county clerk if you wanted to search their records directly. What you can access, and what you pay, depends on what you have locally.


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## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

Go get-em Tiger...sounds like they deserve it...Good Luck and i hope you get a descent Judge.


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Absolutely records of past lawsuits should be available if the cases went all the way to judgement. And if the marina's rep. is as stated it probably costs them little to file against you as they've got a legal beagle on retainer just to crank out that stuff-probably gets paid the same whether he works or not.


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

If the cost is anywhere close I'd go with new on the shaft. But then I've never had much luck with bending or milling steel back into shape, esp. brake rotors. (g)


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## Gramp34 (Oct 5, 2006)

Lawson911 said:


> Another question, if you guys don't mind. Is a straightened shaft as good as a new one. I had heard that sometimes stainless steel develops a memory and even though it is straightened after being bent, it can gradually creep back to it's slightly bent condition, in this case causing a vibration to reappear down the road.


Straightening is part of the original manufacturing process and is a routine repair process. For instance, from United Propeller & Machine Inc. Orillia, Ontario, Canada

"From final *straightening* to machining, United Propeller produces and supplies a rounder, straighter shafting then any of it competitors."​
Try the Yellow Pages for propeller shops and machine shops to see who does shaft straightening around you. Also check with your Cat mechanics about who repairs hydraulic cylinders. The shops that do that straighten the cylinder rods.

Good luck,

Tim


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

Good luck Lawson, one thing you got right - it takes both temperament and resources to do a court fight. 

Hang in there and let us know how it turns out, this kind of thing affects all of us in one way or the other.


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## Lawson911 (Apr 30, 2007)

To JohnR Pollard: John excellent post. If my experience help one other person here that would be great. On the bright side I have learned more out of this and see more aggravation than some people see in 10 years.
To Gramp 34. Gramp, I did not mean anything with that comment. As soon as I posted it I wanted to take it back. You have been one of the most helpful sources to me, firstly as the devils advocate, and secondly that excellent post on how lifting with a cradle could bend the shaft. I am planning on including that info in my defence. I did call Maxi Prop for the new pitch settings, and I took a one week introdutory boating course, but not the itermediate. So half right, ha ha


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## Lawson911 (Apr 30, 2007)

To: funsailthekeys: Great info. I did not recieve any signed copy of anything relating to the engine. Things are looking up


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