# Okay Ladies, I need some advice ......



## PBzeer

... though I reckon I'll get it from both genders.

Well, talk about strange twists and turns ...

I'm looking at the possibility of working for a woman (who does have sailing experience) as a handyman, while we get to know each other. Not really sure how good of an idea that is though. While it kills two birds with one stone, so to speak, it also seems as though it could put some rather large potholes in the road as well. Mainly in the form of perceptions.

There seems to be general agreement that neither of us is too sure about what we want, and that just becoming friends would be enough. So it would seem, there is no problem with expectations, but my experience from a couple of years ago, leaves me a bit gun shy in the trust department.

So, I come to the Ladies of Sailnet, because, quite frankly, I have no experiences, or knowledge of women in this type of situation, to guide me in this matter. So I'm seeking a woman's perspective (if it makes a difference, it was completely her idea, wouldn't even have occurred to me).


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## TrueBlue

I'm going to get slammed for replying (since I'm obviously of the "other" gender), but will anyway.

I don't know you personally John - since we've never met, so I can't advise you in personal matters, especially regarding your hopeful intimate relations. But my observation with this impending arrangement draws a general conclusion - whether right or wrong, it's just one opinion.

It takes a certain type of man who doesn't mind being employed by a woman - while having hopeful amorous intentions for her. As you noted, this could lead to "potholes" in the relationship, IF you're opposed to being submissively subservient.


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## PBzeer

TB - that's what I meant about possible perceptions, and expectations. If it's just a generous offer, without expectations, then I could see doing it, whether it would lead to friendship or something more. And, at this point, my expectations don't go beyond friendship.

While I don't mind being deferential, if it's earned, I am not at all subservient, and can't imagine anything worth being so. So, I know how my head is screwed on, but I'm clueless as to how a woman would view it. Hence my plea for advice. Because my first instinct is too garbled.


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## eryka

John - I suspect your "first instinct" is right - the fact that you asked at all indicates that you sense something is off - I distrust relationships that come with roadmaps as this seems to. Am I reading more into the way you presented this than I should? it's not a simple job offer but a job offer with expectation or precondition that you are also going to become closer with her? 

I think good relationships grow organically, i.e., you are colleagues who in the course of work discover you have things in common, but no preconditions.

My girl-instinct, FWIW, is skeptical.


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## PBzeer

Yeah, my "radar" isn't working too well on this one. My personality and outlook on life can see it as a generous offer, while my brain tells me it's impractical.

It's not something though, that requires an immediate decision. If it did, I wouldn't do it. Especially after being burned the last time out by one who didn't walk their talk. It's hard for me to doubt people though, without something concrete to base it on.

Anyway, I already told her, it would take knowing her much better before making a decision about it, and that I didn't consider it as part of that process. Your advice though, is helpful, and I appreciate it.


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## sailhagg

Avast, I think thar be a whirlpool ahead....

I'm with eryka, go with your gut. I've hired men in the past and they've all been great but none had a secondary job discription floating about in the future. As in sailing....reef early! My $.02


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## MrRagu

TrueBlue said:


> As you noted, this could lead to "potholes" in the relationship, IF you're opposed to being submissively subservient.


TB,

Aren't all us men "submissively subservient" to them!

Mike


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## PBzeer

Of course, there's that coldly logical side that says ... if it goes anywhere, I'll end up doing the work for free ..... and STILL need a job. 

And then there's the side that would feel bad about taking her money and it didn't work out.

Mostly though, I'm just talking outloud, so I don't try to rationalize the whole thing. Since by and large, as tempting as it is, it's not a very good way to build any kind of foundation.


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## norsearayder

eye mate go ahead with it all,roll the dice ,your a sailor go to port and dont worry about a thing


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## Idiens

Hey, do the work, take the pay, improve the friendship and let her make the first move beyond that.


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## PBzeer

Maybe when I was younger, and a lot dumber and full of hormones norse, but nowdays, that pesky 'ol conscience tends to kick in 

I'm too aware of the damage that can be done, even if it's not intentional.


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## TrueBlue

MrRagu said:


> TB,
> 
> Aren't all us men "submissively subservient" to them!
> 
> Mike


Ain't that the truth? 

John,
The problem with receiving payment for "services rendered", is that you will constantly be under pressure to_ perform_ at a level commensurate with your pay scale.


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## eryka

PBzeer said:


> And then there's the side that would feel bad about taking her money and it didn't work out.


Uh, John? That whooshing sound you hear? Is that the air rushing past your ears as you fall off a cliff? I'm deliberately taking your sentence out of context to make a point. This sounds a lot like my definition of prostitution (or in your case would that be gigolo-ness?) Is THAT what your radar is sensing is behind her offer?


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## eherlihy

PBzeer said:


> ... though I reckon I'll get it from both genders.
> 
> Well, talk about strange twists and turns ...
> 
> I'm looking at the possibility of working for a woman (who does have sailing experience) as a handyman, while we get to know each other. Not really sure how good of an idea that is though. While it kills two birds with one stone, so to speak, it also seems as though it could put some rather large potholes in the road as well. Mainly in the form of perceptions.
> 
> There seems to be general agreement that neither of us is too sure about what we want, and that just becoming friends would be enough. So it would seem, there is no problem with expectations,...


Yes, you will get advice from both genders... And it's worth every cent that you pay for it too!

If I distill my understanding of the possible agreement, she has offered you to work for her as a handyman. Additionally, she is not precluding the possibility that "something more" may develop. 

I suggest that you and she come to an agreement as to the terms of the "handyman" (James Taylor inference _not _intended) relationship. (BTW - is this on land or sea based relationship?) Agree, and *document *the hourly wage, provision for overtime, cost of materials, travel, etc... Please do not allow yourself to be ...um... taken advantage of in this aspect of the relationship.

With regard to the "something more" - If this develops, great. If not that should be OK by both of you too.

In your position, I would make the default assumption that this is a platonic relationship unless she initates something. I would, however show her the quality of the work that you do, and contrast that to the other hacks that may be in the same field.

Best of luck to ya...

-Ed


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## TSOJOURNER

Why am I thinking of that old Tony Danza sit com? "Hose the Boss" or something like that.  

I say if you want the job, pass on the woman, but if you want the woman, pass on the job. But that's me, not you. However, like you, I do see how it could be somewhat innocent on her part. If she is interested, knows you may have to leave because you need work and she has work, offering you the work is somehwat logical even though it can be construed as paying for the whole package. Interest in a relationship is a binary thing - "friendship to start with" is interest. Just my opinion and possibly worth less than what you paid.


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## PBzeer

The fly in the ointment, is not knowing if it's merely an innocent, generous offer, or "something else", and that won't be known, till I know the lady better. So as I said, this is mostly about thinking outloud.


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## NauticalFishwife

I don't watch Dr. Phil and yet I've caught myself reading this! MUST be the heat! John, you sound like a nice guy... and you sound like you need work...and are a bit lonely. I would tend to follow the rule of "don't dip your pen in the company ink" - I would approach this as a business relationship until proven something else. Do NOT give her a special discount for the work, or if she throws in dinner or the ink well ... I couldn't agree with Ed and Eryka more. I've seen this happen before, women taking advantage of someone to get a bit of work done on the boat. Now, the flip side of this- I hired someone to do some work-we have become friends (friend of my husbands too) and I no longer hire him to do work for me. It was just too easy for my work order to go to the bottom of the list because of being a friend. I didn't get mad, I simply hire someone else. And if you're a nice guy, and you seem to be, the lonely part will take care of itself. Be patient. People are treasures and we stumble across the greatest ones when we aren't digging for them. Wow-if we could only charge like Dr Phil!


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## PBzeer

Well, we've decided to put the issue on the back burner. I do though, get the feeling it was simply an innocent offer, made without thought of expectations, or possible perceptions.

NauticalFishwife - loneliness isn't really an issue with me. Being alone, doesn't automatically make you lonely  , but you probably knew that. I'm just aware of how much more rewarding it can be when the adventure is shared.


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## Stillraining

As a boss I always tool my employees that they had to learn to separate friendship from business...When your on my clock I will yell at you if need be and if you give me good cause I will fire you..

But after work I will buy you a beer and you can yell at me all you want..


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## sailingdog

Generally, most people have a blind spot when it comes to their own relationships...regardless of how well they deal with other people's relationships.


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## PBzeer

Thanks for the input folks. Sometimes you just need to hear things that you're already thinking, said by someone else, rather than rush to judgement on assumptions, that may or may not be accurate.

So, once again, thanks all.


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## TSOJOURNER

Hey - I just thought of another thing for the "make SailNet better" thread...

Let the person who started at thread lock it it of they have more than a hundred posts.

Not sure why that just occurred to me.


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## Stillraining

arbarnhart said:


> Hey - I just thought of another thing for the "make SailNet better" thread...
> 
> Let the person who started at thread lock it it of they have more than a hundred posts.
> 
> Not sure why that just occurred to me.


Ok John.....comeback..we have 76 more to go...


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## PBzeer

I would Still, but there's not really anything else to say


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## TSOJOURNER

I meant if the person who opens a thread has over a hunderd posts total on SailNet (meaning they are established) decides it has run its course, I think they should be able to close/lock it.


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## Freesail99

Lock the solar stick thread, heaven forbid !!!!!


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## Stillraining

arbarnhart said:


> I meant if the person who opens a thread has over a hunderd posts total on SailNet (meaning they are established) decides it has run its course, I think they should be able to close/lock it.


Oh ....I've got it now....sounds like a good Idea...would keep dead threads from getting revived also....although some desperately need new life in them im afraid..


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## NauticalFishwife

John... I agree.. being alone doesn't mean one is lonely. And was really trying to put a bit of a smile on this and be encouraging to you. And yes, the adventure IS enriched when shared... soon to celebrate 36 years being married to the same wonderful (saint) guy. I wish you the best...


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## denby

Freesail99 said:


> Lock the solar stick thread, heaven forbid !!!!!


Free,

They wouldn't lock the solar stick thread..............would they? Next they might lock the solar-wind thread and that would upset Sway.


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## RickQuann

John, sounds like you're reefing prematurely, anticipating a storm on the horizon that may or may not affect you. 
Sheet-in, do the job, take the money, go where the wind blows you. Relationships always sort themselves out


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## bwalker42

MrRagu said:


> TB,
> 
> Aren't all us men "submissively subservient" to them!
> 
> Mike


*hahahahahahahahaha*

*That's not my experience!*

*pb,*
*it's best just to have friends only...*
*My daddy taught me never to get involved with someone you work with! end of story!*

*I've found it's better to love all people, but Trust no one! trust is earned and that thang that people say;*
*Love cannot exist where there is no trust..!*
*False. Not true!*
*we are commanded by God to love even our enemies.*
*I may love them, but I aint trusting, *
*Abstinance is the best medicine! Love may be free, but trust, that's earned.*
*B*


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## eryka

What do you make of the gender bias in the feedback you've gotten so far? All the women seem to be saying "keep the two separate and proceed with caution," while the men seem to be split on whether to go for it or not? Guess that's why you posted your Q on the 'hersailnet' forum. Interesting!


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## PBzeer

I can't see from the feminine side, plain and simple. No matter how much I may understand or be aware, I can only empathize, not know, those things unique to being female. And I am too innately trusting not to accept things on face value, until the full ramifications rear their, often, ugly head.

It may well be, that I simply think too much, and that I worry too much about what is right and fair to others, at the expense of same to myself. Sometimes I'm not sure if it's the more I understand, the less I know, or if it's the more I know the less I understand, or, just simply both.

Two years ago, for the first time in my life, I cut down the safety net, before walking out on the highwire, and learned, I don't bounce. And now, I don't know if there's enough left, to walk back out there again, but know I have to. Yet, I don't want to drag somebody else down, if I fall again. I'm too aware of the responsibility, of not doing to another, what was done to me. Sometimes, it's just damn hard to leave a clean wake.

Yet, it wasn't confirmation, nor affirmation that I sought. From either side of the gender fence. I sought rather, a prism through which to focus my own thinking. And that is just what I got from the variety of responses.


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## chris_gee

John you did bounce - you just have bruises and they pretty much come with the territory.
Maybe you are extrapolating way down the line here.
If you enjoy her company and want to get to know her go for it but let it develop as it will rather than go overboard.
Depending on what she needs done you could quote a specific job, or rather perhaps as in the ordinary course of things, change a lightbulb, or even give her a hand with say painting jointly. Time spent together doing something allows unpressured acquaintanceship to build. Time will tell as they say. Best of luck.


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## Stillraining

Eve once asked God Why he created Man first...He said he didnt want to argue about it....

John neither sex is capable of totally understanding the other...this to me is the best part of my relationship with my wife...

Other wise one of us is not necessary..

I understand your hesidancy ...it is a self protection mode and not easely deactivated....bouncing does hurt and can take years to recover from...

She is out there... thats the fun of looking...K.I.S.S.....


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## PBzeer

It's all moot at this point anyway. My only hestiancy arises from not want to be responsible for hurting someone else.


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## Stillraining

Ahhh!

Well mate ...that just proves your a good person... 

I say pass on this one as it seems you did...but also remember...nothing ventured nothing gained.. 

You have Just as much at risk as the other party...


If you get beat up or cause damage in a gale cause you made a mistake handeling your boat are ya going to stop sailin?.....

I didnt think so....


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## PBzeer

Still said:


> You have Just as much at risk as the other party...


True, but I know how much I can take


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## chris_gee

Have a rum and be honest. You really think a woman of your age has no experience of men?


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## eryka

Stillraining said:


> Eve once asked God Why he created Man first...He said he didnt want to argue about it....


Gee, Still, the way I heard it was ... Man was created first because EVERYONE does a rough draft before the final version!


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## Bryan53




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## PBzeer

Hey, I know that girl


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## Melrna

OK John - here is my .02 worth. First we met in Annapolis, while I don't know you well, at least I know of you. 
I am a little confused here so I will ask a question. Do you have a problem here working for a woman? Or is it that you have a problem working for a woman that you have an interest in? I think it is the latter from the post but I have to ask the first question base on your original post. 
If the answer to the first question is,"Yes I do", than move on. You cannot change horses in the middle of the stream. If the answer is "NO", than it is strictly business. Business is business. She hires you at X rate per hour, you perform the work, than she pays you. Very simple. Document all your work and bill her. 
Now for the second question. Still do the work as explain above, and play the relationship as you would any other. Either it works or doesn't. Keep them both separate in the beginning of the relationship. Remember every relationship has at least two phases. The first phase being the infatuation phase. For you boys, it is like having a new toy. Everything is great in the beginning until you start to see flaws. This usually takes anywhere from 1-3 months. This is the phase for which I think that both sides might take advantage of in this situation in order to appease the other. Just be careful here. The bottom line here, is communication. Always talk about your concerns between work and a relationship. Keep the slate clean and above water. Both will appreciate it. It will clear the air and everyone knows where the other person stand at ALL TIMES. If a thought comes into your head or hers about the situation, than communicate that. In other words, it is like reefing. If you think about it, than do it. 
Remember one cannot move forward unless one steps forward. 
Hope this helps


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## PBzeer

No Mel, I have no problem with working for women. I was merely put in a position I had never encountered before, and wanted to make clear in my own mind, that I wasn't taking advantage of the situation, at the expense of the other person. Basically, I saw it as an ethical question, rather than a relationship question.


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## blt2ski

Well,,,,,,,

About july 01 I met a women thru my landscape biz.........did work......

She hired me the following yr to do more work......noticed I was a big different.......got to talking, explained in the middle of nasty divorce.....are there unnasty divorces?!?!?!?!.......any way.... after finishing job, started dating a bit.........then my brain went haywire while trying to finish divorce etc.....broke up..........

Kept in some contact, got hired to do third project........a bit later got back to gether after divorce was finalized............Feb 06 got married.........

Ok, so not sure how that helps or hinders the answer, but that is from this end.......oh by the way, first wife, met the same way! ack!! that lasted 17 yrs untill I was sick of the physical and verbal abuse she thru at family, myself, kids etc......... so any way..............

I'll let you figure this one out. Ladies can chastise me if they want, men can too, in the end.....not sure that there is really a right or wrong! 

Marty


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## yawler

I don't think there is a right or wrong either. I'm a single hander female single in all ways) and am still getting up to speed on learning how to maintain/fix the boats systems). Every now and then I get discouraged that there is no 'man in my life' that could help. If I met you, and there was some electricity and we talked about it. Ended up saying to each other, well, let's just sail together, keep it platonic, I'll help you maintain the boat (is this your definition of handy man?) and let's see how it goes...

If this is close to your scenario and you are asking the questions you ask - and assuming I am not too presumptuous - I'm guessing that your query is more about you wondering if you can do this knowing that it is not your boat and it might appear that you are somehow less?

IMHO you have nothing to loose and everything to gain, great cruising, great company, maybe an opportunity to fall in love - or not.


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## PBzeer

No yawler, I have a boat. The lady in question had things around her home she needed done. As I said above, I was more concerned about the right or wrong of the situation, in a moral sense.


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## yawler

ah, sorry. In that case, no. Platonic friend, to me, means no more than if you happen to be at my house and I say, "hey, can you help me move this dinghy from my driveway to the horses in the back yard". 10 minutes later, done. I'd ask any woman this as well.

If it's , hey, 'can you rebuild my deck for me'....a good friend would never impose that much.

Now, if you do this for a living anyway and she is offering to pay you your rates or you offer to do it for less...

Whatever, having said all this, if your in my hood, I could sure use a hand with my dink in the driveway!


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