# AC75s



## Whalerus (Apr 24, 2019)

36th America's Cup 
75 foot foiling monohulls
What do you think


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Freaky cutting edge, just like the AC should be doing. 

I wonder if they'll be safer than the big foiling cats. The only objection I had was the level of risk the crews are exposed to for others enjoyment. I don't buy the argument that the crews are professionals. They will accept any risk thrown at them, as the attraction/advantage of being named to a AC crew is too overwhelming.


----------



## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

Minnewaska said:


> Freaky cutting edge, just like the AC should be doing.
> 
> I wonder if they'll be safer than the big foiling cats. The only objection I had was the level of risk the crews are exposed to for others enjoyment. I don't buy the argument that the crews are professionals. They will accept any risk thrown at them, as the attraction/advantage of being named to a AC crew is too overwhelming.


I don't know, I suspect most of the guys would jump at the chance to race those boats regardless of the risks!

I suspect the monohulls could crash just as hard as the cats did. I am looking forward to seeing what they can do!

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


----------



## bigdogandy (Jun 21, 2008)

I think the pendulum has swung too far towards the focus on electronics, technology and rule-beating and away from match racing skills. Couldn’t we have exciting high speed racing on VOR type yachts without having to go to the bleeding edge that the AC boats seem to be pushing?


----------



## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Experiments


----------



## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I like sailing machines, they are most definitely sailing machines 

I bet they are a blast to sail. I expect there will be some spectacular wipe outs. Picturing spin out broach rolls.


----------



## bigdogandy (Jun 21, 2008)

Interesting.....to me they are closer to a SpaceX rocket than a sailing machine


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SchockT said:


> I don't know, I suspect most of the guys would jump at the chance to race those boats regardless of the risks! .....


I agree. That was my point. A bunch of billionaires fund the construction of the these machines and the professional sailors will never pass on a opportunity to crew an AC boat, regardless of the risk. It's gladiator-like. The billionaires watch for their amusement, while the sailors potentially get hurt. Maybe I'm being too dramatic.

On the other hand, the AC should clearly be a test bed for new design and technology. It's been that way, since the original America (a model replica of which sits in my office, btw). This proving ground has been very good for our sport. We'll see if foiling cats and monos ever become mainstream cruisers, however. My guess is the technology is only used to lift our future cruisers slightly, reducing wetted area and increasing speed, but not for flying a hull.


----------



## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> I agree. That was my point. A bunch of billionaires fund the construction of the these machines and the professional sailors will never pass on a opportunity to crew an AC boat, regardless of the risk. It's gladiator-like. The billionaires watch for their amusement, while the sailors potentially get hurt. Maybe I'm being too dramatic.
> 
> On the other hand, the AC should clearly be a test bed for new design and technology. It's been that way, since the original America (a model replica of which sits in my office, btw). This proving ground has been very good for our sport. We'll see if foiling cats and monos ever become mainstream cruisers, however. My guess is the technology is only used to lift our future cruisers slightly, reducing wetted area and increasing speed, but not for flying a hull.


already on cruising boats. just like the beach cats changed sailing in the 70's the foils will change sailing again https://www.yachtingworld.com/blogs...-at-30-knots-first-video-of-gunboats-g4-63363


----------



## paulk (Jun 2, 2000)

We had a foil hydrodynamicist from Oracle give a talk at our club about the issues involved with stalling, and cavitation at high speeds. He had some incredible videos. The windward foil sticking so far outboard could make roundings and w/l situations interesting.


----------



## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Foiling boats have been around for a while. Hobie produced one in the 90s called a Trifoil. Cool boats, used to see a guy zipping around Toronto Harbour with one with a helmet and ski goggles on.

I recently saw it come up for sale at a rwasonable price. It took considerable discipline no to buy it.

Heres an old promo vid of the Trifoil.


----------



## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

Minnewaska said:


> I agree. That was my point. A bunch of billionaires fund the construction of the these machines and the professional sailors will never pass on a opportunity to crew an AC boat, regardless of the risk. It's gladiator-like. The billionaires watch for their amusement, while the sailors potentially get hurt. Maybe I'm being too dramatic.
> 
> On the other hand, the AC should clearly be a test bed for new design and technology. It's been that way, since the original America (a model replica of which sits in my office, btw). This proving ground has been very good for our sport. We'll see if foiling cats and monos ever become mainstream cruisers, however. My guess is the technology is only used to lift our future cruisers slightly, reducing wetted area and increasing speed, but not for flying a hull.


How is it any different from professional sports in general? Car racing, motorcycle racing, even football and hockey carry risk of physical harm to the participants. They all take risks to provide entertainment to others.

I am not sure how much foiling technology is going to transfer to cruising boats other than the very high end. (Ever priced out a Gunboat?) On the other hand foiling is already becoming commonplace on dinghies, and we will soon see larger sport boats foiling as well. It is only a matter of time before there are foiling one-design fleets replacing traditional keelboat fleets.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


----------



## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Personally there’s two areas of interest in racing regardless of mode (air, land or sea).
The skills, fitness and guts of the racers.
V
The technology developed to be faster and have the machine remain functional for the duration of the race.
Current racers are obsolete at time of completion of build in all classes. Technology is moving along that fast.
Still for me the people part should be more important than the technology. I’m fascinated by the technology. Don’t get me wrong but it seems recent ACs are determined by the engineers not the sailors so it has little interest to me other than learning about the boats.
I’ll closely follow the rtw races. I don’t watch AC in real time.


----------



## mstern (May 26, 2002)

The America's Cup has always been more of a design competition than a pure sail boat race. Absent breakdowns or bad luck, the faster boat always wins. Sailing and match racing skills are important; witness what Dennis Conner was able to do with Liberty against Australia II. The Aussies were clearly the faster and more manuverable boat by far, and yet DC was able to beat them in a race straight up because he was the best match racing sailor on the planet. But even DC couldn't overcome the faster boat in a best of seven series.

If you want a pure sailing skills race, then a strict one-design match race format is what you want. But that ain't the America's Cup. We've inched closer to that, as the boats have progressed from the 12 meter rule (allowing for a relatively wide range of designs) to the IACC (more limitations on design differences) to where we are now, with most major features standardized, and the design differences limited to only a few (albeit major) components. 

I don't know if the Deed of Gift (the document that basically sets out the rules for competition) could ever be interpreted to limit a challenger's boat to a one design. Maybe someday. But given the billionaire mind-set that governs the players, I doubt those guys are anxious to give up any potential advantage.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I'm sure I'll watch. The last AC broadcast was excellent. Well thought out graphics to make it an easier spectator sport on TV. They also did a good job of showing the competitors themselves. If you don't make sport about the people, it's no more than watching a computer compete. 

I can't relate to the trans oceanic or rtw races. Vidoe seems edited or chosen for effect, or you really have to follow online. It's like watching a never ending baseball season, by checking box scores each day and seeing some highlight reels.


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Foiling for sure in interesting technology to go fast on the water. I don't imagine this will distill down into the yachts people buy and use for local and distance cruising. But I could be wrong.

As far as international competition goes there should be two branches... one more traditional designs such we you see in the Sydney Hobart (and other) distance races... and high tech designs which is where the AC seems to be heading. These races may be interesting to watch because of media technology advances and short courses... more like a sprint than a marathon.

I have mixed feelings about these developments / changes in the AC. I probably will watch in wonder at a sport that I feel I haven't a clue how to participate in as a sailor.


----------



## bigdogandy (Jun 21, 2008)

I agree with Sander and others....will watch the AC with interest for the competition and in awe of the technology and beauty of the boats, but not with the same connection to it as as sailor that I had as a kid watching Ted Hood and Dennis Connor sailing Twelves. 

Today’s AC races are like watching rocket launches or Grand Prix races or other high tech, high dollar events that are enjoyable to watch but so far removed from the reality of daily life as to seem like science fiction or an action movie.

Back in the day I could sail my dad’s American 16 on lake Martin in Alabama and believe that if I could get that (way too tiny) jib trimmed well enough, and time my tacks at the perfect times, I, too, could beat any challengers.....


----------



## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Have watched the AC in the past. Both at Newport and San Diego. It was great fun. Understood what the tacticians, captains etc. where trying to do. Could see the mistakes, bad starts missed evolutions without interpretation from another. 
Have Watched recent ACs. Leaves me cold. Don’t understand what if any decisions are made by the sailors. Find watching guys on bicycles or grinding just doesn’t do it for me.
Although coverage of the RTW races is spotty understand it without explanation. Understand how awesome southern ocean sailing is although have never done it. Understand endurance, strength and smarts. Find it incredible.
Think watching boats zip around when allowed to sail within a ~10 kts wind window on calm seas isn’t what AC used to be and all the poorer for it.


----------



## bigdogandy (Jun 21, 2008)

Not AC, but I understand you can sail on at least one of the old twelve meters in Newport....would be a good bucket list item. 

Maybe if we live long enough we’ll have the same opportunity on one of the AC 75’s?


----------



## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

BigFoot vs GraveDigger


----------



## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I think the AC going back to a mono hull was maybe to cater to nostalgia a bit, but I can't see them going back to sailing lead mines at displacement speeds.


----------



## bigdogandy (Jun 21, 2008)

I agree that the races need to be interesting and engaging in order for them to have a following, and technology drives fast and fast means fun.....but it seems to me with the trajectory they are currently on it won’t be long before there is on board AI controlling the helm, sail trim, and foils on a graphene nanofiber quantum “sailboat” in these races with avatar only crew.....


----------



## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

bigdogandy said:


> I agree that the races need to be interesting and engaging in order for them to have a following, and technology drives fast and fast means fun.....but it seems to me with the trajectory they are currently on it won't be long before there is on board AI controlling the helm, sail trim, and foils on a graphene nanofiber quantum "sailboat" in these races with avatar only crew.....


I would watch that.


----------



## paulinnanaimo (Dec 3, 2016)

The avatar crew would probably have as much national loyalty as the current sailors.


----------



## bigdogandy (Jun 21, 2008)

Maybe AC should be become Avatar’s Cup?


----------



## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

bigdogandy said:


> ...Couldn't we have exciting high speed racing on VOR type yachts without having to go to the bleeding edge that the AC boats seem to be pushing?


You mean we don't. Darn, all those videos were fake.

If someone wants to spend their money on, say, Hobie Cats or foiling moths, who is to say they should not?

And BTW, a canting keel VOR boat has nothing to do with reality either. Nothing.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

paulinnanaimo said:


> The avatar crew would probably have as much national loyalty as the current sailors.


This is one of the bastardizations of the AC. It's fundamentally a private race between yacht clubs, not nations. I believe you can only have one yacht club per nation, at least at some point in the eliminations. In order to make it a commercialized spectator sport, national pride is attracted, but it's still owner v owner, club v club, not nation v nation. As most know, the crews are now fully paid professionals, with no national restrictions.


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

My sense is most sailors don't care that much for super fast racing as much as skill and so the "old" style slower boats have more appeal to sailors. We marvel at technology, but most sailors can't "relate" to it as "sailing". The new ocean racers are fantastic and moving very fast and they are not out of the water. That works for me.


----------



## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I think beach cat sailors, possibly multi hull sailors in general can relate to speed. There are some pretty quick racing dinghies too.

I have owned two 15+ knot boats under 20 ft (Fireball and P16) and they both cost less than $1500, so the cost of entry is about the same as a mid quality road bike.


----------



## Whalerus (Apr 24, 2019)

Thinking about adding foils to my Hobie 18


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

The speed itself is likely thrilling to many. I think there is a greater benefit, because it allows for a boat to catch up, if the lead boat screws up, even if they're far ahead. Keeps attention. It also allows for the individual heats to be shorter in time, rather than trying to watch an hour or tow of buoy racing. A greater number of individual, albeit less time consuming, heats likely keeps more attention too.


----------



## bigdogandy (Jun 21, 2008)

Arcb said:


> I think beach cat sailors, possibly multi hull sailors in general can relate to speed. There are some pretty quick racing dinghies too.
> 
> I have owned two 15+ knot boats under 20 ft (Fireball and P16) and they both cost less than $1500, so the cost of entry is about the same as a mid quality road bike.


Amen! I had a Nacra 5.2 I raced for several years when I was in my 20's that cost about a grand at the time and was an absolute blast to sail. I loved the competition and the speed of the boats....but at the end of the day winning and losing was mostly decided by who was the better sailor (and partly by who had the money for newer sails).


----------



## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

It's always been a financial arms race between rich men. I'm OK with that and I'm glad we get to watch. I don't want to race formula 1 or motorcycles either, but I watch it once a year or so. It's cool. So is AC. So are the Olympics. I like my Corsair, but if I ever chose to race again, I'll go back to some type of one-design, maybe a cat, but more likely a mono.


----------



## visional (Mar 31, 2019)

AC racing is much like NASCAR or INDY open wheel racing. Not many of those racing machines running around town. They are also toys of the rich and famous. Still the technology does make it's way to Toyota, Ford, BMW, and the rest, so us mortals can play. I have no problem with billionaires putting up the seed money. If I could get a gig on an AC boat you could bet I'd grab it. How many of us would grab a Gunboat if we could? Great conversation.


----------



## jjablonowski (Aug 13, 2007)

Here in Bristol, Rhode Island, we have a museum dedicated to the former Herreshoff Manufacturing Co, which built no fewer than eight successful America's Cup defenders between 1893 and 1934.
The lesson that comes away from a tour of the Cup's history is that it's ALWAYS been about state-of-the-art engineering. 
Thing is, so many of those 'radical' designs of yore made it into the mainstream sport.


----------

