# PHRF Adjustments



## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

Does anyone have the list of equipment adjustments to a PHRF base score, or can you point me in the right direction to get it. I.E.... the adjustment for roller furling, smaller jib, fixed prop, etc...

Thanks.


----------



## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

The local web site should have some of these adjustments listed, if not, the PHRF-NW.org site does.

IIRC the adjustments are
RF +6 or 9 secs
jibs,spinnakers, main sails max 140'ish jib, ie a code 4 = +3
Code 3 = +6
No spinnaker = +18 ave, could be up to 21 depending upon code of jib
FP = +6


As examples, my base is 188, I have a code 4 jib, code 3 main and spinnaker, as such, I have a 203 rating. +6 for main and spin, +3 for jib or +15 o top of the 188. Then NFS I get an additional 21 for the NFS +3 for a code 4 jib for a total of 224.

Marty


----------



## tenuki (Feb 11, 2007)

PHRF ratings are purely local. They are handed out by a local person or commitee and the adjustments used are purely local. Find your _local_ ratings people and get the list from them. Did I mention it's a local thing?


----------



## tenuki (Feb 11, 2007)

The closest thing to a national lvl PHRF thingy:
http://www.ussailing.org/phrf/

Their directory of local authorities..:
http://www.ussailing.org/phrf/phrfcon.asp

Looks like you may be governed by either of the two fleets:

http://www.racemorf.org/aboutus.php

http://lmphrf.org/


----------



## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

tenuki said:


> PHRF ratings are purely local. They are handed out by a local person or commitee and the adjustments used are purely local. Find your _local_ ratings people and get the list from them. Did I mention it's a local thing?


PHRF's ARE adjusted locally because some fleets are better in certain regions than others. However, I believe (not 100%) that the adjustments for things like roller furlers are more standardized. (A roller furler is the same size, speed, and windage, weight, etc... weather it is in San Diego or San Juan.)


----------



## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

Not to hijack, but how do I get a PHRF for a gemini?


----------



## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

I think you have to trade it in on one of those Macgregors you like!!! 
(You may have to throw in a couple of bucks too. )


----------



## tenuki (Feb 11, 2007)

T34C said:


> PHRF's ARE adjusted locally because some fleets are better in certain regions than others. However, I believe (not 100%) that the adjustments for things like roller furlers are more standardized. (A roller furler is the same size, speed, and windage, weight, etc... weather it is in San Diego or San Juan.)


Fine, don't believe me. Read this.

http://www.ussailing.org/phrf/what_is_phrf.asp

http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cach...furler&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&client=safari that's Narragansett Bay's committee's credit for roller furlers, here is pnw phrf protocol change for spinnakers...http://www.phrf-nw.org/PDF. forms/N...7-02 Spinnaker Protocol Change 05-04-2007.pdf

Trust me, each local committee just makes **** up.


----------



## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Chuckles,
If there is only ONE version of gemini, then using one of the links tenuki gave, to the ave, hi and lo, you are a 138 straight across the board. Seems a bit slow to me for a cat, but then again, not all of them are speed demons ether. 

As far as base ratings go, they can be a crap shoot depending upon local as tenuki points out. One boat north of me, he went from a 165 to a 191, I believe is the hi number in my boats 159-191 range with an ave 172! From talking to others north of me, and a fellow on the east coast with an equal rig to mine, I do believe the credits for small sails, furling, fixed prop etc, are pretty std thru out No Am. But the base will depend a bit on local conditions etc as it should be to a degree. 

The fellow north of me, per a few folks, really wined about some things. I initially was a 165 base per local club rating person, did not understand how this boat north of me could be a 191 base........found out another boat in my more local area appealed the rating to a 188. 3-6 secs I can, and do understand, but the 26 sec difference I still do not understand how it happend per say, other than my boat is about 1.5' shorter than what the manufacture listed it as along with a few other things. 

The credits for small sails etc I believe are reasonably consistent. you might try to search out a fellow that IIRC name is George or may have a handle with george in it, I recall that he is an SF bay rating person, and would know better than some of us if the credits are consistent or not.

marty


----------



## tenuki (Feb 11, 2007)

Here is the lake Michigan regulations with a 6 second credit for roller furlers without battens 3 seconds with, but it must be a production feature of the boat, and the Narragansett Bay regulations with a 3 second credit for any roller furler and any number of sails. Here's the New England PHRF committee's ideas, same as lake michigans with fewer restrictions, but boats that are production built with roller furlers _dont_ get the credit.
Northern california give +3 for any roller furler above deck with the tack attached to the top of the drum.

I believe the ratings do stick by tradition to giving things in 3 second intervals only, hence the appearance of some similitude.

There is not a 'standard deduction in north america' for anything period that I can tell, just look at the difference between every local, cushions no cushions, blah blah blah. Its some local curmudgeons making stuff up. It may not even be the _same_ local curmudgeon for your whole fleet.... (please, somebody who does phrf rating for a local organization speak up but from a national point of view it looks like a total mess!)

BTW T34C, I'm guessing the first link is the regulations document you were actually asking for, ie the regs for your area (chicago?)


----------



## tenuki (Feb 11, 2007)

For a discussion of the roller furling credit on S/A go here:

http://www.sailinganarchy.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=59965&hl=PHRF

Interesting stuff...


----------



## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Am I the George you're referring too? I am not a member of any PHRF committee but I currently hold the post of chief measurer for the Catalina C34 owners association. PHRF committees report to their respective regional YRA associations. As racing is a pretty big thing out here in San Francisco Bay/Northern California, our PHRF committee is made up of boat designers, sail makers and other pretty heavy hitters from our local sailing scene. These guys are more god-like than curmudgeons and I have found them to be more fair than arbitrary. That said, for production type boats, they use the PHRF regression formula to calculate the base rating. They really earn their salt when they rate custom boats which tend to have the most rating movement upon appeal. For these you see the most movement in the first couple of years after the boat was first rated. An Areodyne 38 I used to crew on moved 3 seconds down after her debut year. (A competitor of ours appealed our rating!) Production type boats have little room for appeals as they will take into consideration the combined results of all finishes to determine if the appeal has "merit". 

The only way to determine your rating is to fill out the rating form, and send it in with your twenty dollars. The committee will determine your number including any and all adjustments. I have no idea why the ratings and adjustments move in three second intervals, they just do. I have very rarely lost a position based on three seconds. Where I have problems is my boat rates a 147 so in smaller events I get dumped into the "under 150" class. This means that I have had the rare opportunity of going toe to toe with boats with ratings in the thirties to seventies. Talk about being hard on crew morale!

Out here there are very few base adjustments, the main one being fixed bladed propellers. A folding or feathering prop performs way better than the 3-6 second adjustment for a fixed blade. I am considering on going down to a 125% genoa just to get to a 150 rating. My sailmaker and I are crunching the numbers on a very low clew 125 vs. the clew height on my current 130. What disappoints me is they consider a Coded sail as a headsail and not a spinnaker and I would take a six second hit for one (bummer!) The table that has the adjustments for furlers and smaller headsails is for boats racing in non-spinnaker classes only.

To answer ChucklesR question, out here to get a YRA PHRF number, you have to chainsaw your boat in half. We don't allow you two hullers to race with us in YRA although you might get lumped in with us in a smaller club venue. Yes we discriminate and you race in your own multihull division. You guys get rated from BAMA out here. A Gemini 105 out here rates 177. For comparison, a D Cat rates -84. I have been in several races that had Gemini's in them and that rating appears to be "fair" (we lapped them in our 147 rated boat) as the Gemini is more of a cruiser and doesn't seem to be able to fly a hull.

Blt2ski, what boat do you have? I know that our C34's rating changes depending upon the region and that regions with notoriously light winds add time to boats with a heavy displacement or low ballast to displacement ratio. You might be seeing that there. You might also be seeing local politics at work too.


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

If you're flying a hull in a Gemini, you're doing something really wrong and probably very dangerous.


----------



## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

George,

yes you are the George I was thinking about. Personally, the rating difference from what I can gather for the boat north of me, is some what political, per a couple of folks from up in BC vs in Wa st. Also, my boat is not a good light wind boat. But does do well when the wind picks up, and that could also be a factor in why this area has a lower/higher rating. Along with the boat being an 85, many races have been won and lost per say in this boat style. 

My boat it self, has not done a lot of racing, the one north has been n that regions top 10 a bunch of yrs, as has one other local here in seattle, won its division at swiftsure. So it does do well, is the rating a gift as some say.....will not go there. Right now I have the original main and 142 dac sails, along with a new 110 dac/mylar and assymetric at about 85% of max availible, ie 580 vs 720. My choice for various reasons for going small. 

Boat is a jeanneau arcadia.


----------



## mikehoyt (Nov 27, 2000)

This is an interesting thread ...

1. The 2003 US Sailing PRHF manual lists only one Gemini. It is a Gemini 730 with one rating area reporting (Chesepeake) at a rating of 108. US Sailing has a list of Low, High and average ratings at the following site:
www dot ussailing do org followed by /phrf//Tool_%20HI_LO_AVG%20Report.pdf

This list does not state what model of Gemini it is. You would have to contact US Sailing to get details on the areas listing that boat. Probably the 2006 US Sailing PHRF manual will list it.


2. Roller furling credit.
Not all areas give credit for roller furling and not all roller furlers are subject to adjustment in areas that do. One area that does is PHRF-NE and it is part of an overall adjustment for a "cruising credit". www dot phrf-ne dot org


3. Obtaining a rating. You should have a club handicapper who is part of your area association. Contact the club handicapper and fill in a Yacht Data Form or whatever form your area uses. Based on the information you provide you will be issuesd a rating and some sort of rating certificate. Keep in mind that you are responsible to provide the information and the committee does not have to give you a rating if the form is not properly filled out. LArgest headsail and perhaps its measurements, spinnaker and its measurements, main and probably its meaurements, type of prop (fixed 2 blade, fixed 3 blade, fixed 3 blade in aperture, feathering/folding,e tc... or outboard) and whether the rig/keel/hull has been modified and any modifications made are the minimum of such required information. If the boat is custom then a lot more information is usally required.

4. Ratings are different and established seperately in different rating associations. Adjustments also differ area by area so except as a loose reference the only area that matters is the one you are in. If your area actually adjusts ratings based on performance then you have a committee that is doing its job.

Ratings are a very interesting game. The simplest thing to remember is that the rating you are given assumes your boat is in racing condition. And except for local club assigned ratings for fun events there is not adjustment for boats that are not in that condition thru choices made by the skipper.

There - that's my rating rant for the day.

Regards

Mike Hoyt
Currently Boatless
Chair, Nova Scotia Yachting Association Handicap Committee
(the official title for those that wanted a rating guy to speak up)


----------



## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

That would be hull number 730, a 105MC just like mine.
Given a choice I'd prefer the 177 over the 108 . I found the 177 earlier and since my local lets us use any published phrf as ours (giving ya'll an idea how serious we are: not a bit) that's what my Race committee chair used for the one race I participated in this year. Normally I'm the party, um committee boat for our local yacht club.
I think the difference would be with or without a screacher; I have one but do not use it on our local Friday Nights (no need and a bear to handle when single handing). These are just 'round the beer can' type races, not the serious type they have on Wednesdays in Annapolis. 
I see no need to get a real phrf, and doubt I could get one that would equate to a monohulls.
I really don't see how they could - While I'd never fly a hull (it's a home not a Hobie) I can exceed hull speed, a mono can not. 
Given a wind speed of 16 kt's I've hit 10.3 over ground, going into a .5 - 1 kt current (Magothy River). The biggest boat we have in our local is Islander 37 with no way to exceed 8 kts. Straight line racing in good wind it has no chance unless I goof it up, rounding the bouys makes it more challenging as I've been known to undertack and get caught in irons more than one time.

How do you factor in that in some wind conditions I can exceed hull speed, and in some can not? Variable prhf based on wind? not likely.


----------



## tenuki (Feb 11, 2007)

PRHF single number takes the whole range of local conditions into account. That is why they are different for different locals. You may find that you win/lose certain types of races but not others depending on conditions vs boats with certain characteristics that are different than yours, thems the brakes.

Don't worry, if you come out of the gate winning everything by big margins your rating will be adjusted. lol.


----------



## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

blt2ski said:


> George,
> 
> ... Personally, the rating difference from what I can gather for the boat north of me, is some what political, per a couple of folks from up in BC vs in Wa st. ...Boat is a jeanneau arcadia.


Local ratings in BC are adminsitered by BC sailing, outside the aegis of PHRF Northwest. As such there are some variances between like boats. Another common cause for a rating difference with BC is an "old sails" allowance, which can show up as a 3 sec difference for like boats with identical codes. However any new sail will negate that... but the governing body needs to be informed that new sails have been bought (each years' certificate should reflect the current inventory) (not sure if PHRFNW gives you this - it's been a while since I paid close attention)

Ratings are assigned on the assumption that the boat is in perfect racing condition, and that she is handled with a high degree of competence. No one should expect credit for, say, a dirty bottom or bad tuning. Credits have been given (and taken) to reflect major modifications of standard boats as well.


----------



## jgeissinger (Feb 25, 2002)

*Phrf*

Here in SoCal, birthplace of PHRF, the ratings assume that your boat is optimized for racing. It is therefore assumed that you will have a folding prop, no furling gear, a 155% genoa, etc. Whereas you will receive penalties for something beyond the base rating, such as a 170% genoa or rod rigging, you will not conversely receive a credit because you have small sails and a fixed prop. Yes, some specific races and classes may offer ratings adjustments for such items, but your base PHRF rating for your boat will be the same as every other boat of the same make and model as yours.


----------



## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

Ya'll make me glad I only 'race' local, and our Racing Chair has authorization to adjust ratings on the fly (you get an allowance if the helmsman is not the skipper for instance). Then again, we are racing for tophy's the club spent all of 94 bucks on last year - and the priceless bragging rights only go to one in the front .
I crew a boat for Wednesday's - the 'serious' race, that'll do for me.


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

A Gemini probably makes a very nice committee boat... a fair bit of space to spread out... a refrigerator for cold drinks...


----------

