# struggling with thru-hull removal



## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

I have an old Groco SV thru-hull & seacock that needs replacing. There is no room above the seacock to unscrew it upwards and off, so the thru-hull HAS to be unscrewed down and out. I torched it to break it free and it did rotate maybe one degree before the dogs inside broke off. I've got PB blaster soaking in it for now. 
But I am stumped on how to get this apart. Grinding off the mushroom isn't an option because I'd then need to raise it up from the inside and like I said earlier, I don't have any headroom to do that.
One idea I'm considering is grinding opposing flat spots on the mushroom for a pipe wrench to grab. But the mushroom doesn't stick out very far so this won't be easy.
And there is no room under the floorboards to get a sawz-all or grinder on any part of the seacock. Terrible installation.

Any good ideas on how to unscrew the thru-hull now that the dogs are broken off?


----------



## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

Sell the boat and shoot the guy that put it there. LOL


----------



## badsanta (Oct 16, 2006)

Bronze is soft. Get an electric sawzall or a hack saw. Cut between the valve and the thru hull. Or cut the valve in parts. It wont take long. Just cut it out. Take out the valve and then cut the nut to the thru hull or once the valve is gone stick the saw blade into the thru hull and cut it in two places 180 degrees apart dont cut too deep to the hull and take the two halfs out. Good luck.


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

dremel with a cut-off wheel


----------



## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

xort said:


> I have an old Groco SV thru-hull & seacock that needs replacing. There is no room above the seacock to unscrew it upwards and off, so the thru-hull HAS to be unscrewed down and out. I torched it to break it free and it did rotate maybe one degree before the dogs inside broke off. I've got PB blaster soaking in it for now.
> But I am stumped on how to get this apart. Grinding off the mushroom isn't an option because I'd then need to raise it up from the inside and like I said earlier, I don't have any headroom to do that.
> One idea I'm considering is grinding opposing flat spots on the mushroom for a pipe wrench to grab. But the mushroom doesn't stick out very far so this won't be easy.
> And there is no room under the floorboards to get a sawz-all or grinder on any part of the seacock. Terrible installation.
> ...


Carefully grind the mushroom head off the thru-hull with a 4" angle grinder. Then go inside an simply pull the valve to the right or left and it should tip free. If not cut the valve off the thru-hull inside the boat and the use a pipe wrench on the threads of the thru-hull to twist it out..

PB Blaster won't do much of anything to 5200 you'd be better off to try DeBond.. Now you can understand why many folks are opposed to 5200..


----------



## jrd22 (Nov 14, 2000)

Xort- would you have enough room to get a small die grinder in there to cut the valve off? You would need an air compressor so shore power would be necessary, not sure of your situation. I'm pretty sure you can rent small pnauematic grinders, maybe even right angle ones if you don't have one. Hard to figure out without seeing it. Good luck.


----------



## PorFin (Sep 10, 2007)

*Another option*

Xort,

The above options look quicker and easier, but if they don't work for you here's another.

Carefully grind a couple of slots on either side of the mushroom across the center of the through hull. You'll then (hopefully) have a place for a piece of 1/4" steel plate to gain purchase and act as a really big screwdriver head. Add a pipe wrench (one inside around the seacock) and a big adjustable wrench (on the steel plate) and give it a turn. You may need to add an extension (like a pipe) to the adjustable wrench to get enough leverage to get things moving.


----------



## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

There is absolutely no room inside the boat under the floor to get at the seacock. And besides, they ran all kinds of wires around the seacock that I hope to move after it is off. If I start running a sawzall I'll cut some wires for sure; antenna wires and other stuff I do not want to splice.

There aren't any bolts to the flange on this Groco. I think I can see threads of the thru hull looking down into the side of the seacock. I have the big rubber plug out of the seacock. Am I wrong in thinking the seacock is threaded directly into the thru-hull? How long is this threaded area likely to be? From what I can see it looks like maybe an inch of threads into the seacock.
I have zero room to unthread the seacock upward off the thru-hull; I have to unscrew the thru-hull downward out of the hull & seacock.

Cutting a notch in the mushroom is similar to my idea of grinding two flat spots to accomodate either a pipe wrench or a big set of slip joint pliers. I'm afraid I won't get a very deep & neat slice to make a tight fit for the big 'screwdriver'.

I was using PB blaster to free the threads between the seacock & the thru-hull.


What am I missing?


----------



## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

If you take your grinding wheel and place it across the opening of the mushroom hole, with the wheel perpendicular to the hole, you should be able to grind a couple of 1/4" slots as PorFin suggests. Then just get a piece of 1/4" plate and cut/grind it so it will fit in the slots. You'll avoid risk to the fiberglas around the mushroom head that way. You should be able to grind two or three separate sets of slots if you round out the initial ones. There should be a compression ring, that you might not be seeing that holds the mushroom headed thru-hull secure...not the seacock.


----------



## Rockter (Sep 11, 2006)

Do you have a picture or two Xort?


----------



## Leither (Sep 30, 2008)

I agree with the "cut a slot in the mushroom head" school of thought. Grinding a couple of flats lays you open to doing nasties to the hull.

However, what puzzles me is how the **** did they get the thing in there in the first place? Has something been built around it since it was installed? I have come across some awkward seacocks in my time, but never one that sounds as inaccessible as yours.......

Good luck

Stuart


----------



## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

L
I suspect the floor was built over the installed seacock.

Sway
my grinder has a wider grinding wheel. I'll have to search out a thinner grinding wheel. I suspect it won't be hard to find.


Freekin pink seacock!

This is only the beginning...re-attaching the head hose will be even more fun. The top of the seacock is a 90 degree elbow and it points away from the itty bitty access hole in the floor. Reaching the clamps is about impossible. I hope there is some extra in the hose for it to come closer to the access hole to be able to detach it relatively easy after the seacock is detached. Leaving the last part, re-attachment, the most difficult. Don't even suggest pulling up the floor, the seacock sits directly under the door frame to the head and the head floor is a one piece fiberglass unit.

I love boating! I love boating! I love boating! I love boating!


----------



## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Look for a cut-off wheel in the proper wheel diameter for your grinder. You can always make the slot wider as necessary. I'm betting though that you've got a compression nut on that thru-hull inside where you cannot see it. Once you get the thru-hull turning though, it may become apparent.


----------



## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

Compression nut would be under the seacock, on top of the backing plate?

Seacock would be screwed onto the thru-hull down as far as the compression nut?

Thanks all so far.
I'll be picking away at this over the winter. Hope to get it removed before things get real cold then install new as soon as it warms up.


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Really big countersink reamer? They make em big enough.. little pricey. Drive it in until you see a little white powder and then stop really fast...


----------



## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

Here's what I think I would do (hard to be fully confident not knowing some stuff).

I assume from your comments above that you can at least get a Stilson wrench or something to the seacok inside to hold that while you turn from under the boat? If yes, that's good for my plan. If not, don't bother reading any further.

Then I would drill four holes (say 6 mm) in a round thickish (say 10mm, sorry I can't think in inches  ) steel plate roughly the same size as the mushroom. Using the plate as a guide, drill the exact same four holes into the mushroom taking care not to penetrate the hull. That's not hard, right?

Then weld some pegs into the holes in the round plate and weld a handle of sorts to the plate as well. If you have followed me so far, this "widget spanner" will not look unlike the tool that comes with an angle grinder to free the disc.

The widget spanner on the outside, a Stilson or other appropriate wrench on the inside and Bob's you auntie.

Good luck.


----------



## Cerveza (Mar 4, 2008)

I had to cut open the wood work to get my valve and seacock replaced. It was the only practical sollution for me. Keep us updated!


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Like an early 1980's Mercedes. Cut a hole in the firewall and weld sheet metal over it to replace the heater motor... Better and taking out the dash!


----------



## Leither (Sep 30, 2008)

xort said:


> Compression nut would be under the seacock, on top of the backing plate?
> 
> Seacock would be screwed onto the thru-hull down as far as the compression nut?


Could be - a common arrangement involves the installation of the mushroom with a big nut on the inside (and I am not referring to the person holding the stilson here). This leaves a longish threaded portion inside the boat and the seacock is screwed onto this. However, it usually doesn't screw all the way down to the nut.

If you actually cannot get a grip on the nut or the seacock, then it is unlikely (I understate here) that you will be able to use any of the "screw the mushroom off from outside" techniques and will have to fall back on grinding it off from the outside and hoping you can waggle it enough inside to get it out.

"Freekin" describes it well, I think!

Stuart


----------



## Quickstep192 (Jan 6, 2001)

This may be the most expensive way, but...........

How about filling the center of the thru-hull fitting with a plug or dowel and then drilling out the whole shootin' match with a metal cutting holesaw that is the same size as the outside diameter of the thru-hull fitting. Once you get through the flange you should be good to go, but if need be, you can keep going until you get to the other side of the hull. If there is something above it, slow down as you get through so you don't cut through all of a sudden and damage something on the other side.


----------



## xsboats (Oct 2, 2007)

I have drilled thru-hulls [perpendicular to the threads] and inserted a screwdriver in the hole to unscrew them when the nubs have broken off. The hole was as close to the bottom of the seacock as possible. If there is no flange there will be a nut on it and you will need room for it to move up the threads before it reaches the hole/handle. Once it does, you will be able to remove the screwdriver and get a pipewrench on the mushroom to finish unscrewing it.


----------



## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

Here are 3 pictures to illustrate the situation:

The opening is less than a foot long by about 5 inces wide









The wires around the seacock are pretty tight and cannot be pulled away very much









I thought the elbow was close to the floorboard, it's not close, it's touching the underside framing!


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Xort-

That blows chunks.


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Yeah, I'm going to go with either my, or Quickstep192's recommendation. You need to get the head off of the mushroom, and remove as much bronze from the inside as you can. Get some sort of step drill, reamer, or similar and _make it all go away._ Be brutal.


----------



## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

A 12" metal cutting blade in a saws-all looks like it would sneak in there and cut the 90 degree elbow right off.
You could even cut lower and go right through the middle of the sea-**** if necessary.
With this saw you can almost cut around a corner. The blade bends but will still cut.
then the grind off the mushroom and lift out from inside plan will work.
Unless of course you are trying to save the seacock.


----------



## justified (Jun 14, 2007)

xort
what if you drilled a couple of holes in the mushroom and used some ring pliers or a deck plate key with posts 

Justified


----------



## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

I'm going to try the 1/4" plate as a 'screwdriver' and grind a 1/4" groove into the bottom of the mushroom to try to unscrew it.

There is VERY little room in the access hole to get a sawzall in there plus all the wires nearby. Cutting off the elbow is my fallback.


----------



## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Something tells me you are going to need to enlarge the access hole, if not to get the old one out, then to be able to get the new one IN. The amount of time, effort and/or damage you do trying to work in the space the size of a shoebox is probably greater than the amount of time it would take to enlarge the hatch. I see a second seacock there, which means that Murphy is just waiting for his chance- if you gotta do this once, you are gonna have to do it again. Make it easy on yourself.


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

If the mushroom inside diameter is large enough perhaps a basin wrench might provide the needed torque to remove it, if not could a dremel tool with a 3/4 in. cutting wheel be inserted to cut it off internally?


----------



## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Take an old angled tire iron, or something similar, and wedge it through that old seacock to back wrench the whole thing. If the grooves in the mushroom head don't get it done with the steel plate you can buy a 1" e-z out or 1-1/4", or whatever size fits inside the thru hull and then get some good leverage on it. I'm not sure of the mushroom ID diameter but I've got both a 1" and 1-1/4" E-Z Outs and you can borrow either of them if you are up for a bit of a drive. I'm going over to Jackson, hopefully, next week and so we could meet halfway. PM me a telephone number...I won't know when I'm going though until the day it actually happens.


----------



## badsanta (Oct 16, 2006)

sawzall and a fine toothed 12 inch blade. Cut at base of valve, then cut from the outside of the boat into the thru hull and cut it into two halves and remove. install new thru hull to a flange adapter.


----------



## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

xort said:


> I'm going to try the 1/4" plate as a 'screwdriver' and grind a 1/4" groove into the bottom of the mushroom to try to unscrew it.
> 
> There is VERY little room in the access hole to get a sawzall in there plus all the wires nearby. Cutting off the elbow is my fallback.


Sometimes wires can be temporaraly moved by finding one end and disconnecting it then attaching a tracer line and pulling it out.

In your case just disconnecting one end might let you move it a couple inches temporarily.


----------



## AllThumbs (Jul 12, 2008)

sailboats are just so handy to maintain....


----------



## Joesaila (May 19, 2007)

*Two choices*

Glad you posted the pictures...I would either move the wires or make the hole bigger. Otherwise you risk damaging the wires. There is a nice article from Good Old Boat on Sailnet that shows how to patch holes. But if you need those through hulls there, you've got to have a solution for the wires.

I too am looking forward to replacing through hulls this year.uke


----------



## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

I plan on first trying to unscrew from below. If the thru-hull will unscrew down and out then the seacock will move latteraly. I can then remove the hose and pull the seacock out of the hatch.
I'm fairly confident that a replacement seacock can be had that is a little shorter. I'll install in the reverse order of removal. When I remove the old seacock, I can move some of the wires a bit. Done.

If that doesn't work, then...


----------



## belanich (Sep 13, 2006)

I had the same problem. I used a 1/4" drill bit and drilled many holes all the way around the flange (mushroom) on the outside. Then used a chisel and pliers to remove the flange. Took only a few minutes because bronze is soft.
MB


----------



## adru (Oct 18, 2008)

First cut the valve portion of the seacock off with a “Mini Hacksaw Frame” (google it) from the inside, protect the wires by placing some cardboard or a piece of sheet metal between the wires and the seacock. It will take a while due to the limited space so wear gloves so you don’t chafe your hand. Then grind off the mushroom head on the outside.


----------



## Quickstep192 (Jan 6, 2001)

Whatever you do to remove the thru-hull, please post up and let us know what worked. Take some pictures too!


----------



## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

Would a Fein "MultiMaster" be the way to go here? It uses an oscillating saw blade that will cut through metal, wood, FG, etc.; but will not cut anything soft like your skin. The tool is fairly small so you should be able to get it in the correct location to cut that valve off. It's $210 at TylerTool but it might be worth it if you have other projects that would require a cutting tool.


----------



## travler37 (Mar 30, 2007)

How big is the hole on the outside,
have seen this work.
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=37352

Buy a cheap one.Your going to trash it with the threadlock.Put RED threadlock on it before you tighten it.Let threadlock sit for a few beers...

Then hope your PB-BLASTER did the job on the other side and turn it backwards while holding valve with....On your own there.

If that doesnt work heat the valve housing on the inside and tighten the expander untill it breaks the valve..let cool and remove...

Best Of Luck 
mark


----------



## timebandit (Sep 18, 2002)

I think I would just get out the ole die grinder and start on the outside of the boat and grind the inside diameter of the mushroom untill it fell off.

Keep checking on the heat though.

Ten to 20 mins at the most.


----------



## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

timebandit said:


> I think I would just get out the ole die grinder and start on the outside of the boat and grind the inside diameter of the mushroom untill it fell off.
> 
> Keep checking on the heat though.
> 
> Ten to 20 mins at the most.


you haven't read my issues here. After grinding the head off, the remaining thru hull would still be attached to the seacock. That won't come through the hull, so it has to be lifted out of the hole inside the boat. THERE IS NO ROOM ABOVE TO LIFT IT OUT. That is why I am going to do everything I can to unscrew it from the seacock. 
I ordered a big easy-out. It will be here early next week. I'll get back at it then. If the easy-out does not work then I'll look into a Multi-Master. There is a knock off that sells for about $100. No room for a saws-all.


----------



## timebandit (Sep 18, 2002)

Ya I did.

I guess I didn't make myself clear.

Grind the inside of the thru hull untill there is nothing left but the hull then the head should fall off and the valve should slide sideways.

I dont think you will get anything on the inside of the access hole that can cut the bottom of the valve.

I might try using a guitar string to saw any sealer under the head before attempting to turn it.

I would do the other one at the same time. I might even try taking the other one out first using the guitar string first before trying to unscrew. If the other one comes out easy you will have more room to help you remove the first one.



xort said:


> you haven't read my issues here. After grinding the head off, the remaining thru hull would still be attached to the seacock. That won't come through the hull, so it has to be lifted out of the hole inside the boat. THERE IS NO ROOM ABOVE TO LIFT IT OUT. That is why I am going to do everything I can to unscrew it from the seacock.
> I ordered a big easy-out. It will be here early next week. I'll get back at it then. If the easy-out does not work then I'll look into a Multi-Master. There is a knock off that sells for about $100. No room for a saws-all.


----------



## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

Finally got a screw extractor to stick in the underside of the thru-hull.
I'll get to it as time and weather allow, hopefully this week. Here is a pic...










It's about 1.5" wide at the base and 1" wide at the top. Should be perfect for a 1.25" thru-hull.

Sailhog, keep away from my tool!


----------



## travler37 (Mar 30, 2007)

xort said:


> Finally got a screw extractor to stick in the underside of the thru-hull.
> I'll get to it as time and weather allow, hopefully this week. Here is a pic...
> 
> 
> ...


 Let us know,
curious as to how well this does.Do you know what through hull was beded with?
Question and good luck
Mark


----------



## boofus (Jul 27, 2008)

just cut a 6 inch hole in the fiberglass around the whole seacock and let it fall on the ground.


----------



## gtod25 (Aug 5, 2000)

*Agree with BoofUS*

Once you cut your first hole in the hull it gets kind of addictive (like a lot of other things in life).


----------



## gtod25 (Aug 5, 2000)

*And again*


----------



## gtod25 (Aug 5, 2000)

*And again*










The Incredible Hull


----------



## Leither (Sep 30, 2008)

xort said:


> Finally got a screw extractor to stick in the underside of the thru-hull.
> I'll get to it as time and weather allow, hopefully this week. Here is a pic...
> It's about 1.5" wide at the base and 1" wide at the top. Should be perfect for a 1.25" thru-hull.
> 
> Sailhog, keep away from my tool!


Now *that's *what I call a screw extractor! Looks like that should do the business, though we all understand that there is many a slip......

The less said about Saildog's tendencies the better, I feel!

Good luck with the extraction.

Stuart


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Please don't confuse dogs with hogs...  They're not the same thing. 


Leither said:


> Now *that's *what I call a screw extractor! Looks like that should do the business, though we all understand that there is many a slip......
> 
> The less said about Saildog's tendencies the better, I feel!
> 
> ...


----------



## Leither (Sep 30, 2008)

sailingdog said:


> Please don't confuse dogs with hogs...  They're not the same thing.


Thank you for that, dog (not hog). It can be very confusing for a Scotsman living in a different cultural setting  . Where I come from, you would probably have made some reference to sheep......

Stuart


----------



## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

Update
The extractor started to twist the thru-hull but then cracked the thru-hull. So as I twist it, it expands the thru-hull. Not good.
Looks like I'll have to weasel a sawzall into the small hatch and cut off the seacock after all.
Now I need a sawzall.


----------



## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Nah, you just need a hacksaw blade wrapped in duct tape. Or you can buy a handy-dandy handle for the blade. Insert it and continue to cut out the cracks and once notched around the circumference you can chisel inwards. I'm not against buying a Sawzall (get the Super model with the adjustable guide) and I don't know what I'd do without one but, you're ctting soft bronze and the hacksaw blade will do fine.


----------



## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

If the thru-hull continues to turn somewhat, remove the EZ-Out, and take a chisel to one of the cracks at an angle and continue to "turn" it by tapping the chisel with a hammer.


----------



## boofus (Jul 27, 2008)

with how easy glasswork is I don't understand why cutting it out isn't an option. also seems like a new seacock in the same hole is improbable due to space limitations, so glass work may be inevitable?


----------



## timebandit (Sep 18, 2002)

So what happened?? 

OOPS!! 

Michigan 

Never mind 

GLOBAL WARMING:laugher :laugher :laugher


----------



## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

Victory is *MINE*!

It was a hard fought battle. There were unexpected setbacks. Casualties and collateral damages were high. But the surge worked!

The first assault was with a sawzall to cut the elbow off near the top. Half way thru the blade broke because of the difficult angle. A second blade was sent in and it broke too. So much for mechanized forces, it was time for hand to hand combat. I inserted a long screw driver into the breech and applied brute force with hammer. After a long protracted fight with the hammer the screwdriver finally broke through and the top half of the seacock was severed. Once the seacock was severed, I knew the battle was as good as over.

But the mop-up was not without surprises and counterattacks. A chemical attack with PB blaster was the first order of business. That worked after giving it time to penetrate the defenses. I then brought back the hammer and screwdriver from a brief rest to reach in and twist the seacock into submission. It finally gave in after great resistance.

The last battle was with the thru-hull. The first surprise was that it was plastic, not bronze! So the hammer & screwdriver were again thrown into the battle by cracking the plastic nut inside. This was followed flanking by assaults outside to the mushroom with the hammer & a chisel. Ultimately the screwdriver proved to be the greatest warrior in my arsenal out-battling the chisel and attacking relentlessly. Another long casualty stricken hand to hand battle ensued. Several more blows to the hand by the hammer inflicted painful bruises. Surely this was accidental and not fragging. Slips of the screwdriver punctured skin. It was a gory mess. Blood splatters stained the wind driven white snow. But ultimate victory was not going to be denied. Willpower won out. The last mop-up duty was to remove the still elastic caulk. But that was relatively easy.

Two thru-hulls removed by brute force during a harsh brutal winter. Once the warmth of spring comes it will be time for rebuilding. In the meantime I will try to heal some before attacking the head hoses that are frozen and offering stiff resistance.

(Begin humming Battle Hymn of the Republic)
Somewhere on my boat there will always a battle to be fought. And as long as I have any strength in my arthritic fingers, I'll be ready to fight that battle. For I am a cruiser. And I have no money to pay conscripts to do my dirty work. Glory Hallelujah.


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Xort's lost it... he must have banged his head working on that through-hull.


----------



## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> Xort's lost it... he must have banged his head working on that through-hull.


On the contrary, I found it...the zen of sailboat maintenance! 
But yes, I forgot to mention I suffered other injuries from banging my skull on the hull doing battle under the boat in whiteout conditions with 50k winds and sub zero temps.


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

You should be fine, with a skull as thick as yours, there should be no damage at all, but is the boat okay??? :laugher:laugher


xort said:


> On the contrary, I found it...the zen of sailboat maintenance!
> But yes, I forgot to mention I suffered other injuries from banging my skull on the hull doing battle under the boat in whiteout conditions with 50k winds and sub zero temps.


----------



## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

mission accomplished!
...and we all know what that means.


----------



## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

bljones said:


> mission accomplished!
> ...and we all know what that means.


Yes, the battle is far from over.
Over? Did somebody say over? Was it over when the germans...


----------



## ADMTROX (Apr 5, 2008)

xort said:


> Yes, the battle is far from over.
> Over? Did somebody say over? Was it over when the germans...


First you are Rambo, then John Belushi? I think you did hit your head to hard. Do you need me to take you to the ER? But, seriously folks, nice job Xort. What's next on your honeydo list?


----------



## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

Fixing your plumbing


----------



## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

You've been working on this in the temps we've had here, lately? Outside? You're a better man than I, Gunga Din! (Or crazier, at least .)

Congratulations! You deserved the victory, after all that.

(Nice epic recital at the end, there .)

Jim


----------



## jrd22 (Nov 14, 2000)

You're the man Xort, good job. Now, have you figured out how you are going to fit a couple of pipe wrenches in that same hole when it comes time to install the new one? You won the battle....
John


----------



## PorFin (Sep 10, 2007)

XORT -- Congrats on getting the t-h off and out of the way! Sounds like you were pretty close to blowing the Claymores and firing the FPF. Hopefully the replacement will go easier, but given your space limitations I don't envy you. 

Fixing your ADM's plumbing should be a peice of cake now, and it will assuredly be a warmer and more pleasant endeavor (but you still gotta watch out for your noggin)


----------



## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

Jim
Maybe I embellished just a little bit  

Yes I won the battle, and I WILL win the war. All I need is some bubble gum for the install and all will be hunky dorry  

I'll spend all winter working on the Admirals plumbing


----------



## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

Groco has been helpful. For the re-install they suggested I put the elbow in first, before the valve. That will be a much lower profile. I'll dry fit everything to make sure I get the elbow pointed in the right direction.
I do have one last skirmish with the old backing plate before the re-install.


----------



## denby (Feb 21, 2007)

A job well done Xort,

And a great description.:laugher I think there's a Purple Heart in it for you. Gave a rep just for the description.

AH, got to spread some around before I can give you a rep.


----------



## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

My favorite ending; "brute force and ignorance triumph once again!".


----------



## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

sailaway21 said:


> My favorite ending; "brute force and ignorance triumph once again!".


What brute force?


----------



## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

xort said:


> What brute force?


What'd you hit the screwdriver with? How many screwdrivers do you now own that are designated as chisels? (g)


----------



## denby (Feb 21, 2007)

sailaway21 said:


> My favorite ending; "brute force and ignorance triumph once again!".


Sway,

How come Xort didn't question the ignorance part?


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

he'd be denying the truth of it....  


denby said:


> Sway,
> 
> How come Xort didn't question the ignorance part?


----------



## timebandit (Sep 18, 2002)

Ah!

The hard way but it makes great reading.



xort said:


> Victory is *MINE*!
> 
> It was a hard fought battle. There were unexpected setbacks. Casualties and collateral damages were high. But the surge worked!
> 
> ...


----------



## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

Savor your victory for as long as you can, Xort. We know that boats are worthy adversaries and will lie in wait to ambush you again. Till then enjoy!!!


----------



## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

xort said:


> Groco has been helpful. For the re-install they suggested I put the elbow in first, before the valve. That will be a much lower profile. I'll dry fit everything to make sure I get the elbow pointed in the right direction.
> I do have one last skirmish with the old backing plate before the re-install.


Like this..?


----------



## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

Maine

Eayup; except I plan on the handle being on top instead of on the side so it will not point too high when closed.

Sway
I was questioning the first part of your comment but not the second. Me no muscleman. The screwdriver came out in better shape than the chisel.
I hope to post pictures of the 'battle of thru-hull' later today.


----------



## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

xort said:


> Maine
> 
> Eayup; except I plan on the handle being on top instead of on the side so it will not point too high when closed.


Yeah mine is mounted that way too. The handle was oriented that way to illustrate the UL Marine listing on the valve. I always dry fit and measure before installing...


----------



## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

*BDA pix*

Here are the BDA (Battle Damage Assesment) pictures:

This is the site of the battle shorty after Victory was declared:










Here is the seacock that was at the center of the battle. Notice the long cut line in the lower part of the hole. That is where the sawzall cut until it broke. The upper part of the hole was all hammered/chiseled in hand to hand combat.










Remants of battle lie in the blood soaked snow:










The real heroes of this epic battle. I salute them; especially the screw driver that was driven to great lengths into the battle.


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Nice touch with the ketchup.


----------



## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> Nice touch with the ketchup.


Are you inferring I faked my injury?


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Any inferences you come up with are your own and I have nothing to do with them. 


xort said:


> Are you inferring I faked my injury?


----------



## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Maine Sail said:


> Like this..?


I would strongly encourage you to substitute an elbo and a close nipple for the street elbo shown in the above picture. If you ever want to take that apart again you'll discover why professional plumbers, pipefitters, and even lowly well-drillers use street elbos only as a last resort. You'll find that you can achieve nearly the same clearances using a FIPxFIP elbo as with the street elbo.

For those who've not had the pleasure, it's very difficult to get a good grip on a street el with a pipe wrench when you're trying to loosen it. Regular elbos have a land or flange on each end by comparison.


----------



## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

sway
can you elaborate on this elbo you are referring to?
I will be using an elbo of some sort. Didn't know there are different types.
Where do I find these? FIPXFIP???


----------



## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> Any inferences you come up with are your own and I have nothing to do with them.


Well I can tell you, there is NO ketchup in any of those pictures. Your comment inferred I had put ketchup there. I would appreciate a retraction.:hothead


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

sailaway21 said:


> I would strongly encourage you to substitute an elbo and a close nipple for the street elbo shown in the above picture. If you ever want to take that apart again you'll discover why professional plumbers, pipefitters, and even lowly well-drillers use street elbos only as a last resort. You'll find that you can achieve nearly the same clearances using a FIPxFIP elbo as with the street elbo.
> 
> For those who've not had the pleasure, it's very difficult to get a good grip on a street el with a pipe wrench when you're trying to loosen it. Regular elbos have a land or flange on each end by comparison.


I just stick something in the end of the street elbow and pry away. If it gets destroyed oh well, buy a new one. Putting them on usually goes a lot easier, especially when using a good pipe dope.
If you are referring to using a standard 90 deg pipe elbow 







I would reconsider your advice. Doing so would require using a pipe nipple, which sadly are only available in brass or stainless. I would never use a pipe nipple on the sea side of the seacock unless absolutely necessary, and only then if I could find one in bronze or monel. 
Even West Marine has taken notice of this issue (and common practice) and added an excerpt to their catalog:


> We cannot source bronze nipples so we offer brass instead... Due to the difference in nobility between brass and bronze, we recommend that you not use them together in saltwater environments.


Use the street elbow! No brass below the waterline!


----------



## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

First some terms. FIP stands for Female Iron Pipe thread. MIP stands for Male Iron Pipe thread.

A street elbo is a specialized elbo that is used in specialized applications. It's not uncommon in steam boiler installations or where space limitations are severe. It shouldn't be used where there is either room for a conventional elbo or there is any chance that the elbo may need to be removed in the future. Once installed, it's often difficult to impossible to get a pipe wrench to grip the elbo.

If you look at Maine's picture, and envision removing the ball valve at some point in the future, you'll note that it would be nigh on to impossible to "back-wrench" the street elbo while you unthread the valve. Backwrenching takes the opposite strain to what you're either tightening or loosening.

Why do you need to back wrench? If the assembly in the picture has been installed for some time, and you attempt to take the valve off, you will not be able to back wrench the street elbo and all of the strain will be transmitted to the nipple and the thru-hull flange as you take a strain on the ball valve. See that close nipple between the thru hull and the street elbo? Imagine how you're going to feel if it snaps off as you're unthreading the ball valve! It might be part of the thru hull, and not a close nipple, but pay no nevermind; imagine how you'd feel if, as you put a strain on the ball valve, the threaded nipple portion of the thru-hull bent? That's why you always want to be able to back wrench fittings when you're using pipe wrenches. You otherwise end up replacing far more than you set out to do, at far more time and effort. Note that you'd also be putting all the strain on the thru-hull bracket as well.

A street elbo has one end that is FIP and one end that is MIP. Notice how the FIP end has a lip or flange around it's edge that is just made for your pipe wrench to fit on? A conventional elbo has FIP ends on both ends of the elbo and thus, nice convenient lands or lips upon which to use your wrenches.

You only need one extra nipple to use an elbo instead of a street elbo. It's well worth the expense and the effort. FWIW, most plumbers don't even attempt to remove street elbos. They just get the Sawzall out and start cutting them out and replace everything. Saves on the busted knuckles, you know!

While we're on the topic and I'm being so critical of Maine's excellent picture (g) I'd mention that you can find brass/bronze male adapters (hose barbs) with significantly longer barbs than the one pictured. I'm not enamored with the short barbed ones myself.

This should not be interpreted as being critical of MaineSail or his graciously offered excellent photo. I know it was posted for other illustrative reasons.


----------



## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Sailboy,
Those male adapters you see in the photo are brass themselves.


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

sailaway21 said:


> Sailboy,
> Those male adapters you see in the photo are brass themselves.


They shouldn't be. Mainsail wouldn't do that, but I think he did shine them up a bit 

EDIT: But you might be right about the hose barb. That looks like a brass one. Groco makes some great "full flow" bronze tailpieces in straight and 90 degree.


----------



## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Bronze nipples here: Discount Yacht Supplies, Vetus Nautical Accessories, Buck Algonquin Parts, Garmin Marine Electronics


----------



## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

Sway
If there are no bronze nipples available anywhere, what do you suggest?
Groco suggested what you are calling a street el; male to female.

OOOps, you beat me to it. Thanks for another new supplier to shop.


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

sailaway21 said:


> Bronze nipples here: Discount Yacht Supplies, Vetus Nautical Accessories, Buck Algonquin Parts, Garmin Marine Electronics


Only if it were true... A good number of people, and some companies, use bronze & brass interchangeably. I'm sure if you call them they would swear up & down that they are bronze, when in actuality they are red brass. But if you buy "bronze" and that makes you sleep better at night fine. I have never seen a "bronze" brass nipple, or valve for that matter, fail... completely...
But hey, their prices are great!
Take the 1.5 x 3" "bronze" for example at $6.72
The brass one is $18.99 in the west catalog!!!
and $12 from McMaster-Carr
Certainly the best bargain in town.
I don't know, maybe it isn't such a big deal. My theory is if you are going to all the trouble Xort has the last thing you want to do is skimp or use substandard parts, especially considering the position of that thing! Get the stuff that will last forever (or at least as long as the last one) and you won't have to worry about getting a street-elbow off.


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Found it! New for 2009? Never seen these before. Page 47 of the Groco catalog has pipe nipples, with cast in wrench flats!


----------



## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

sailboay
thanks for finding that. I was looking at groco's site and didn't see it.

I just looked all over the groco catalog and could not find 90 degree elbows.

Here's another q...I've never seen any info on whether I need to add pipe dope or pipe tape or something else to the couplings.


----------



## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

xort said:


> sailboay
> thanks for finding that. I was looking at groco's site and didn't see it.
> 
> Here's another q...I've never seen any info on whether I need to add pipe dope or pipe tape or something else to the couplings.


real plumbers use dope, not a joke!!!


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

BTW, don't mix stainless steel and bronze.


----------



## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

bubb2 said:


> real plumbers use dope, not a joke!!!


I've been using pipe dope on interior plumbing but have not yet tackled any thru-hulls.


----------



## Quickstep192 (Jan 6, 2001)

I've been using Locktite 565 thread sealant with good success. When using sealant with teflon in it, be careful not to over tighten. I've cracked fittings by overtightening.


----------



## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

sailingdog said:


> BTW, don't mix stainless steel and bronze.


and NEVER use stainless below the waterline.


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I've seen stainless used below the waterline... it's not a great idea IMHO...but it is better than using brass.  Personally, I think it should be Marelon or Bronze below the waterline...and that you really shouldn't use stainless below the water line if you can avoid it. Titanium is a nice choice below the waterline though. 


camaraderie said:


> and NEVER use stainless below the waterline.


----------



## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Either teflon tape or pipe dope are acceptable. Our plumbers use both but they're anal.

Quick makes a good point; you can crack brass or bronze easily by over tightening. The objective is not that it be "tight" but that it not leak, sometimes not the same thing.


----------



## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Sailboy,
I'm glad to see you found bronze nipples that met your specifications.

As to the original point; having a heck of a time getting a thru-hull out, I thought it might not hurt to mention that using a street elbo will make future endeavors fun as well. It's precisely that logic which says that, if done right, it will never have to come out again. The truth is that everything usually has to be done again at some point, and it's just those jobs that we ourselves say will never have to be touched again that, we have to touch again. Street elbos are the 3M 5200 of plumbing. Use 'em at your own risk.


----------

