# 12 volt problems...



## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

Yesterday the family and I sailed from HHI to Beaufort, SC where we spent the night at the downtown Marina. Barbequed some shrimp, drank lots of beer and wine, played monopoly with the kids, the little ones watched a movie. We all had a great time. We went to bed with two lights on -- the nav desk and the head.

This morning, however, I awoke to very dim lights. We were plugged into a 30 amp shore power port, so I assumed the battery charger would keep the batteries topped off. The battery charger, however, was out of order. It took some futzing with the dock staff, but I finally got a battery in there, got the engine started, switched the batteries out, and recharged my dead batteries. The engine recharged them just fine, and so we sailed home. Being that I was in a hurry to make the tides down the river, I discovered that I had no 12 volt after we were underway -- no GPS, no depth. We decided to go on, and sailed right up to our dock. Started the engine, and parked it.

So... the 12 doesn't work -- no cabin lights, depth sounder, etc. I had some 12v current first thing this morning, but no more. I checked a couple of the fuses while underway, but they were fine. However, I did not check them all. So my question for the learned panel is: Where do you suppose the problem is? I don't have a breaker box, but a fuse box. I have two batteries -- one of which is a dedidicated starter. Could my shuffling batteries around this morning have done something? Are 12v fuse systems like Christmas tree lights in that if one is out none will work? I appreciate your help.
Happy Thanksgiving to you all,
Sailhog


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

It sounds like your batteries are either dry or completely pooched. A dry battery will come up to voltage quickly but has no amphour capacity so only lasts a short period of time.

Check your fluid levels first, fill and recharge. If they don't recover you may be stuck with buying new batteries.

They may have gone dry if you charger was overcharging for a period of time. In any event when you leave a charger on at the dock you really need to periodically check the levels - every month or two anyways.


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

Faster,
The batteries are fairly new, and this is the first time they've been run all the way down. They came right back once the engine had had a chance to recharge. Also, wouldn't the depth sounder, cabin lights etc. work once the engine was running?
Thanks


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Sailhog-

You still need to check the water level in them if they're wet cells. It does sound like your house bank is blown.

Also, if you have a battery switch* like mine... it doesn't combine the banks, and isolates the house side from the starting side.. so unless you had a battery combiner, the alternator would only charge the starting side, and wouldn't run the house-side electronics unless you have the switch in the "combine" position.

_*BTW, the battery switch I have is a BlueSea Dual Circuit Plus... _


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

Check each cell individually. Check all your connections and clean them all. How new are the batteries?


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

Sailingdog,
I have a batter switch with settings for: Off, 1, 2, and both. It was in the "both" position last night. The batteries seem to be recharging just fine.
Thanks


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

BF,
The house battery is 6 months old and the starter is about 2.5 years.
Thanks


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

If you had it on both, you drained them both. Next time, put it on whatever one is your house bank only. That way you will still have your starter battery in the AM, can start your engine, and recharge. If you have them on a trickle charger now, let them go overnight and check it again tomorrow. If the problem persists, clean the connections and check the cells with a tester. If it still doesn't work, you may just have a bad battery. Do one thing at a time so that you can isolate the problem for future reference.

2.5 years could be it for your starter battery. Its best to have them both the same age or the old one will hurt the new one. 

Off to the boat, best of luck.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

If the battery banks are both fully charged, hold at least a 12 volt charge, and none of your 12 devices are working while underway, there's obviously a short or poor wire contact somewhere in the electrical system. 

You'll need to test the circuits for continuity, starting from the batttery terminal posts to each device to find the fault.


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

BF,
I had them on both last night in order to recharge them. I'm thinking I made a stupid mistake... The only time I plug my boat in is when we're overnighting at a marina. I still don't see why these 12v functions don't work when they've got enough juice to start the engine.


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

TrueBlue said:


> If the battery banks are both fully charged, hold at least a 12 volt charge, and none of your 12 devices are working while underway, there's obviously a short or poor wire contact somewhere in the electrical system.
> 
> You'll need to test the circuits for continuity, starting from the batttery terminal posts to each device to find the fault.


TB,
Nothing comes on even when the engine is running, which leads me to believe that it isn't necessarily the batteries. I'll need to get the batts tested. I need to do a lot of stuff...


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

SH—

Is it time to start running around and panicking yet???  

When you were futzing with the batteries, any chance you might have blown a fuse, tripped a breaker or knocked a fuse loose??? If you have a volt-ohmmeter, you probably should check continuity on all the circuits, and also see what kind of voltages you're getting off of each battery as well as off the alternator.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

I'm guessing a bad ground connection somewhere is why the 12v system is down. The engine is running power to the batteries, so even if it's running and you aren't completing the circuit the electronics will still be down. Could also be a bad combiner switch. Did you try it on 1 or 2, or just on both?


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## HoffaLives (Feb 19, 2007)

Batteries don't just go like that; blind lead there I'm afraid. You have an open in the circuit somewhere, either via fuse or open connection (very common). You have starter voltage because the battery is a direct simple unfused connection to the starter, while the house circuit is more complicated. You will need a voltmeter or testing light and starting with the 1/2/off switch start following voltages till you come up empty.
I'm assuming at this point that there is no power at all to your fuse panel if nothing is working, so the problem lies between batteries, switch and fuse panel. And since you claim that input power to the batteries from the alternator is working, so it seems like there is an open between the switch and the fuse panel.

All this also assumes you don't have a weird wiring arrangement.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Hoffa has it I think. There's a main cable issue somewhere. I'm betting it is the positive to your battery switch from the battery. With both house and starter batts fully charged...do you get any 12V operation from either of them? If not...it is probably the cable from the Perko switch to your fuse panel or the switch itself.


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## therapy23 (Jul 28, 2007)

Also, no one has mentioned to you that you should not charge both batteries at the same time since one is so much older than the other. One will over charge and the other will undercharge.


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## k1vsk (Jul 16, 2001)

Assuming the prior posts have not solved your problem, it sounds like an easily overlooked issue - that being the batteries were never recharged fully as you presume. You didn't say how long you ran with the emgine alternator recharging the batteries but if it was only a short time, the bank wasn't recharges sufficiently to maintain the draw being applied.


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## Rockter (Sep 11, 2006)

Buy a wee multimeter... they are like £20... and check the battery voltage at the batteries both with engine stopped, and with engine running. Running it shout be about 14.2V, and with engine off it will drop to probably 13 V.

Absolutely dead ancilliaries with decent charging is a supply problem to them. Something has blown or tripped.

Does the motor still start from your batteries? If so, it is definitely a supply problem.

Multimeter out. It is not difficult to fix.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

A very possible place for a problem could be the negative connection if nothing is working. Check and clean at the engine and the neg bus if both batteries are connected to one. Or if you have a monitor shunt, look there too for a common ground issue.


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## BarryL (Aug 21, 2003)

*12V Troubleshooting*

Hello,

As previously mentioned, you need to get a multimeter and start troubleshooting. If you don't know how to use a meter, either get a friend to show you how, or read a book about it. It is not very difficult.

If I had your problems, I would first measure the voltage at the batteries. Then I would open the fuse panel and measure the voltage where is comes into the panel. Then I would measure the voltage at each location you need. If your accessories (GPS, etc.) are all on the same fuse, you may just have a blown fuse. More than likely you have a bad alternator, ground, or broken main lead.

Good luck.
Barry


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## Yofy (Aug 15, 2007)

If I understand correctly and your instruments are not working even while the engine is working, and the alternator has the proper output, then the problem is not with your batteries. 

This would tell me to start checking for a bad connection somewhere. Without knowing how your boat is wired it's hard to point to a specific connection. I would start with: Alternator to point of charging? Battery switch to pannel? 

It could also be your battery switch itself... we really need to know how your boat is wired before we can give more specific trouble shooting advice.

Manny


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

sailhog said:


> BF,
> I had them on both last night in order to recharge them.


You mean while you were on shore power? What kind of shore power charger do you have? Mine is a Xantrex TrueCharge 10TB. It has two separate "channels" - one for each battery. Its output connects directly to each battery. The battery switch need not be on for the charger to work.

The only time the battery switch setting should matter for charging the batteries is when you're charging from the engine's alternator.

Jim


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

sailhog said:


> Are 12v fuse systems like Christmas tree lights in that if one is out none will work?


No. Not unless you have a master fuse or breaker, like your home breaker panel will have.

Jim


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

sailhog said:


> Faster,
> The batteries are fairly new, and this is the first time they've been run all the way down. They came right back once the engine had had a chance to recharge.


Define "came right back?" Batteries that have been completely or nearly completely discharged take quite some time to be fully recharged.



sailhog said:


> Also, wouldn't the depth sounder, cabin lights etc. work once the engine was running?


Yes. But I'm a bit curious about this:


sailhog said:


> but I finally got a battery in there, got the engine started, switched the batteries out, and recharged my dead batteries.


How _exactly_ did you effect the battery switcheroo? I'm _hoping_ you either used the temporary battery with jumper cables to one of your regular batteries. Or, if you temporarily replaced one of yours with the temporary battery, I'm hoping you did something like:
Install temporary battery in "1"
Start engine
Switch to "2" (this _should_ be safe with modern, make-before-break battery switches that are in good working order)
Put regular battery back in "1"
Switch to "both"
I'm _hoping_ that at no time was the engine running with anything in the 12V electrical system energized and there being no battery at all connected. Besides the possibility of toasting the alternator, doing that, you can toast anything that was energized at the time. Don't ask me how I know that.

Jim


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## dfloeter (Jun 17, 2000)

This sounds too much like I found on the first night of a North Channel trip last year. I was plugged into shore power with no appliances or lights on except the standby mode of the FM cassette deck. Around 2AM I awoke to the tell tale tones the radio outputs when the batteries go dead, yes I did this before but with previous batteries and other circumstances. 

After checking the obvious circuits and narrowing it down to the cabin circuit I traced the wired down and found a very hot auto quality butt splice in the head. A fire would have been next as the fuse was not blowing and the resistance was huge. Before I found the cause I was watching the volt meter drop visibly whenever I turned the Cabin switch on, dropping one half volt in a couple of seconds. Needless to say, I pulled the butt splice off the wire and respliced it properly the next day.

So that's my tale and hopefully your solution might in the end be as simple.

Dietrich

Calliope Catalina 30


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## HoffaLives (Feb 19, 2007)

dfloeter said:


> This sounds too much like I found on the first night of a North Channel trip last year. I was plugged into shore power with no appliances or lights on except the standby mode of the FM cassette deck. Around 2AM I awoke to the tell tale tones the radio outputs when the batteries go dead, yes I did this before but with previous batteries and other circumstances.
> 
> After checking the obvious circuits and narrowing it down to the cabin circuit I traced the wired down and found a very hot auto quality butt splice in the head. A fire would have been next as the fuse was not blowing and the resistance was huge. Before I found the cause I was watching the volt meter drop visibly whenever I turned the Cabin switch on, dropping one half volt in a couple of seconds. Needless to say, I pulled the butt splice off the wire and respliced it properly the next day.
> 
> ...


this is exactly why i harp on about limiting connections and keeping things as simple as possible. people worry about propane (another thread) and yet i would bet SD's right nut that far more boats have burned due to poor connections. if you paid less than $70.00 for your crimping tool, you're a disaster waiting to happen.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I'd have to agree that electrical problems are probably responsible for more damage than propane, but not as dramatic looking most times.

Hoffa doesn't know how to shop obviously...Look here, Here, and Here

Obviously, there's a reason he had to fake his death.


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

Seems like you have two problems, 
a) low lights the night before (even tho connected to the pier and charger on)
b) GPS etc.. not engerizing from the 12v panel even tho engine is running; apparently the altenator is working because the batteries are getting a charge.

Since seldom in life does two things go wrong at once let's look for the simple solution.
A) your charger crapped out a1) your charger crapped out because your batteries crapped out or at least one of them did and maybe that boiled off the other

B) while farting around in the battery compartment you knocked loose or did not reconnect either the positive or negative cable that supplies power to your panel; or you reversed a connection (only takes a second) and blew the primary panel fuse. 

There is no need to panic, it's not magic.

Alternatively, The more complex response: 
While playing monopoly with the kids the lead horsie figure was loose and running around making random shorts in the system by creating lead horse droppings on connections, then it got hungry and ate some copper cable and caused opens in other places.
To fix that requires 4 bottles of rum, food for a week, 3 naked virgins (female, non-minors) and from 8 to 10 viagra's, PM me with my airline ticket reservations and I'll drop in and fix it.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

It sounds to me like you forget to hook up the + wire for your 12 volt stuff or you have a bad connection to them


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

Any update Hog?
What did you find out?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Chuckles-

Be careful what you wish for or sailhog will have you over to help and be offering you three very nice sows...  as you didn't specify what species the virgins had to be. 



chucklesR said:


> Seems like you have two problems,
> a) low lights the night before (even tho connected to the pier and charger on)
> b) GPS etc.. not engerizing from the 12v panel even tho engine is running; apparently the altenator is working because the batteries are getting a charge.
> 
> ...


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

Errr.... this is a hard post for me...
But here goes...
I... I... I... Can I just say... 
Okay, I'm just going to get this over with...

The batteries on my C30 are under the nav desk. The way it is wired, and the manner in which the batteries sit in the batt. bucket, and the way the wires emerge from the liner behind the nav station... well, in shuffling the batteries around, the pos. and neg. wires of the house batt. got tucked down under the plastic battery bucket in such a way that I could not see them.

So there. I want to remind everyone that snickering will be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. If you snicker, you will be arrested by the Sailnet police. So no snickering. Anyway, that part of the mystery is solved. 

Now if you all can stop snickering for a moment, I do have one lingering concern, and it has to do with why two good batteries would die in 12 hours with just a couple of little cabin lights drawing off of them. Any suggestions? Obviously, the battery charger was and is on the fritz.

P.S.: I would appreciate it if you didn't PM all of your buddies and tell them about this little mix up of mine. I know you all are laughing at me behind my back, making nasty little comments like, "God, Sailhog is stupid..." or "If he had that pos. and neg. lines up his ass he'd know where they were." I"m feeling a little vulnerable right now...


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

So the cables were not connected to the terminals?
Is that what you are saying?

And believe me, I am not snickering.
Its a boat, anything is possible!


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

TJK,
The starting battery cables were hooked up, but not the house side.
Okay, so let's change the subject...
Whaddaya say we got grab a beer and talk about why those batteries died with only those itty bitty lights drawing on em?


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

So hog, you now realize that the next time you post a question to these forums, we'll be sure to ask you - "Is it plugged in?"


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

Did you check the water levels as was suggested earlier?


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

Buddies got a C30, understand how that could happen (dark and tight).

Back to the simple solution again: they were not fully charged to begin with.
You didn't specify what the capacity was, assuming (as it's a C30) you have 90 amphour wet cells (likely, average battery) and you were at/about 80% to start, two lights at 1 ah per for 8 hrs (overnight), 16 ah down... yep they would be rather dim come morning.
BTW, what was the anchor light running off, assuming it was on? Factor that in if you missed it and question is answered eh?


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

TB,
If I post a question on engine trouble you'll ask, "Is there fuel in the tank?" And I'll reply in some really hyper-sensitive way like, "What are you saying? What the f--- do you mean by that?" 

On the way home that morning I didn't have acceess to the GPS and the depth sounder was in-op due to lack of electricty, so I had to keep to the deep side of the channel and take the sure way, as there are a number of shoals to run around on... anyway, it meant a longer route, but we still made the 17 mile journey in 2:05. We had the currents flushing us down the Beaufort River, and then we had them flushing us back up Port Royal Sound -- and it was blowing like snot off of our port quarter for most of the way. I've never gone that fast in that boat.


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

TJK,
I checked the water levels, and they are fine.

Chuck,
Come to think of it, they would not have been fully charged when we arrived, as we sailed the entire distance (17 miles in 3.25 hours) with the stereo, GPS, press. water, etc. all on. All of this would have been drawing off the house batt. The engine ran for less than 5 minutes as we pulled into the marina. The anchor light was not on, as we were docked, but, as I mentioned, the charger was not recharging the batts. I had the switch on "both" all through the night to allow (I thought) them to recharge.


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

Sometimes it's good to be a simple in a simple world with simple problems and simple solutions..
On the other hand, I was looking forward stories of chasing lead horsies around


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

Chuck,
I like your approach to troubleshooting. Every time -- every SINGLE time -- something has gone wrong on that boat, it's been something very simple. A friend of mine, who, incidentally, also has a C30, couldn't get his diesel started. He mucked around with it for two entire mornings, and still couldn't figure it out. The more he worked, the more convinced he became that the problem was a big one and the solution expensive and complex. He called a mechanic who looked at it for ten minutes and found that the alternator cable had corroded.


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## Joel73 (Apr 23, 2007)

*God, Sailhog is stupid... If he had that pos. and neg. lines up his ass he'd know where they were!!!!!!*        

Just kidding Hog... just a couple of weeks ago i could not figure out what the hell was going on (why i had absolutely NO power with everything hooked up.) Turns out i had put everything back except the parallel jumper between the batteries. Man i felt D-U-M-B!!!! 

Not sure about the battery drain but my money is on sailingdog to figure it out.


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

Joel73 said:


> *God, Sailhog is stupid... If he had that pos. and neg. lines up his ass he'd know where they were!!!!!!*
> .


Joel,
The Sailnet Police are in their helicopters and are on their way TO YOUR HOUSE!


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

Here we are playing Monopoly that fateful night...


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

And here's the ass-end of our boat... parked at the lovely Downtown Marina in Beaufort, SC...


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

If it's not the simple solution - you don't waste a lot of time and effort ruling it out at least.
Occam's Razor is is often paraphrased as "All other things being equal, the simplest solution is the best."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_Razor


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

A boat full of females - very pretty indeed, but girls just the same. God help ya hawg when they start dating . . . ask me how I know.

BTW, your boat's rectum has brown stains.


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

TrueBlue said:


> A boat full of females - very pretty indeed, but girls just the same. God help ya hawg when they start dating . . . ask me how I know.
> 
> BTW, your boat's rectum has brown stains.


Bawaaaaaaaa! I prefer to call it her "man-gina." It's really difficult having sex with a C30 with it way down there by the waterline. The first time I "did it" I had to borrow a friends dink and sort of get on my knees. It was nice... just a bit awkward. People at the marina just stared like I was some weirdo. People are weird...


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## Joel73 (Apr 23, 2007)

sailhog said:


> Joel,
> The Sailnet Police are in their helicopters and are on their way TO YOUR HOUSE!


I'm not worried about those guys.....









btw... nice family photo and nice looking boat... except for the rectum part.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Just curious as to why your little one has her eyes crossed??? and I won't even comment about checking to see if the battery charger is connected...


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Hog... how's that low windage dodger working out for you?


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

Joel,
They're much tougher than they look. They'll take you into the interrogation room where you'll be subject to some "smacky face" torture. Within minutes you'll be giving up important information, such as your Sailnet password, whether you prefer boxers to briefs, your favorite color, etc.

SD,
If you pull out the camera, Evey will cross her eyes. What can I say? She's eight. 

As far as the battery charger is concerned, it appears to be plugged in. However, I am going TO MAKE ABSOLUTELY SURE!


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

Faster said:


> Hog... how's that low windage dodger working out for you?


Ron,
It actually serves an important function... as a jungle gym for the girls during long, dull sails...


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

Found another picture....


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Now you're just posting photos to distract us from your mistake.


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> Now you're just posting photos to distract us from your mistake.


SD,
Whenever you get caught doing something wrong, it's always best to just... change the subject. By the way, did you notice that her eyes are not crossed in that pic?


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

What I'm most surprised to see is . . . no cloven hooves on sh.


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## thekeip (Aug 8, 2007)

he best troubleshooting advice I ever got: "when you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras",
Keiper
Sea Quest
Berkeley


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

TB-

I heard he had surgery to remove them...kind of like the operation they have for club feet. 


TrueBlue said:


> What I'm most surprised to see is . . . no cloven hooves on sh.


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

TB,
Sailingdog is right. Couldn't make a go of it as a drug dealer (couldn't hold the tiny razor blade between the hoof toes), so I had "hands" installed.


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

Beautiful family, nice boat, what more could you ask for.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

A working 12V system.


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

Oh yeah, that. Thanks for reminding me, I have to deal with mine today.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

BF-

No charge*... have fun...  










* pun intended...


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

Pun accepted. Its always fun buying new things for the boat, break out another thousand! No troubleshooting, at least not until I put all the new stuff in and entirely screw it up.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Have fun...just don't drop a wrench across the bus bars... bad things can happen when you do that...


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## HARH (Nov 2, 2005)

Get a copy of Don Casey's book " Sailboat Electrics Simplified". It's excellent.
On page 120 "A better way" he advises dumping the old "off,1,2,both" switch for a 3 switch system with a battery combiner. This is a foolproof way to manage the electrical system on your boat. The one change he recently made is to connect the alternator to the START battery and NOT to the house bank as stated in the book. This is due to updated thinking. 
The batteries are automatically combined whenever the alternator is charging (engine running) and isolated when there is no charge (engine off). All you have to do is turn the two battery switches "on" before starting the engine and "off" when leaving (locking up) the boat for some time. Simple.
In your case if you can start the engine O.K. but have no power the the systems then there is a problem to the "house" side of your circuit and not to the "start" circuit. So start checking for loose, corroded or damaged wires/connections. Don't forget to check for bad "grounds" as well.

Hope this helps -- if you haven't fixed already.
H.


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## gavinandrebecca (Oct 28, 2007)

Hi Guys
have you sorted the voltage drop? cause it could be a "hot" joint somewhere. if you can monitor your V while everything is off, then see if V drop dramatically when you switch on, start at the isolating switch.
And switch to LED lights for power saving like these
http://www.superbrightleds.com/1157.htm
can also suggest if you have a tong meter you could check how much your current draw is.
Let us know how you go
cheers
gavin


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

Harh and Gavin,
Thanks for the help... I've solved the problem, but Harh's suggestion about the battery combiner is a very interesting one. I'll put Casey's book on my Christmas list. 
Thanks to everyone,
Sailhog


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

Hawg ? What WAS the problem? (Or did I miss it in the preceding silliness?)


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## thekeip (Aug 8, 2007)

If you're using the word 'combiner' in a generic sense, I'm all for it. But if you mean combiner, as in relay, then I'm not sold. I do a lot of battery system installations and, if left to my own devices (no pun), I shy away from relays or any 'automatic' mechanical gadgets. They seem to sell well however, in spite of a fairly poor history, and that statement blankets all brands.
Related to that, I was surprised, though I shouldn't have been, I guess, to read that Xantrex cautions about the AC transfer relay used in their inverters could be subject to contacts welding.
I admit to being somewhat gun-shy as re relays, but it comes from memories of running out to my car at 3 am to rap the relay box to silence the horn.
Howard Keiper
Sea Quest
Berkeley


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

PBzeer said:


> Hawg ? What WAS the problem? (Or did I miss it in the preceding silliness?)


John,
Let's just say that you were right, and leave it at that... Very humiliating experience for Mr. Hog.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

Oh sure, make me go back and look up what I said


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