# Boat "Flipping"



## punjabi (Jul 16, 2007)

I've been thinking of buying a boat, but was a little leery about depreciation. But then I found this:

http://www.ibuysailboats.com/index.html

If I can just buy a boat and sell it for double what I paid twice a year, in five years, I'll have a million dollar boat while you suckers are still fartin around in your little dinghies.

Its on the internet. It must be true


----------



## jrd22 (Nov 14, 2000)

Geez, that sounds so easy even I could do it. Guess I've been going about it wrong all these years. Let's see now, 1 million in 5 years and I've been boating for over 30... I could have a pretty nice boat by now! Thanks for the info., I'm going to sign up now before the word get's out and everybody's doing it.


----------



## denby (Feb 21, 2007)

Sure and btw I have a bridge for sale, real cheep  

Dennis


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I think it's very doable, but you have to be a bit shrewd and in some ways not very nice to pull it off successfully. I would think the further up the $ scale you went the harder it would be though. In the sub $5000 market, which I was shopping in and watching closely recently, variances of over 100% are not at all unusual. There isn't always an explanation due to quality either. Anyway, I suspect the "course" teaches you to figure out which buyers and sellers are weak willed, how to make minor issues seem significant when buying and major issues seem insignificant when selling. You would have to low ball people and walk away a lot. A lot of these GRQ schemes do work, but I would not want to be the kind of person you have to become to make them work; they teach how to prey on people.


----------



## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

I know a fella that bought a 26ft s2 at auction for 450.00.
Cleaned it up, put on new running rigging, listed it for 8500.00. 

sold it 3 yrs later for 1500.00

another guy, a good friend, same auction, 28ft morgan, 575.00. cleaned, spackled, pointed, tucked, trimmed, painted, sailed it for 4 yrs grinned like a cheshire cat every time he took it out. 

Sold it last month for 3000.00

I bought a 198? wellcraft 19ft elite (gasp, a stinkpot) at a church run resale shop for less than 700. Put in a 200.00 heat exchnger, new 70.00 impeller, poliglowed the pajeebers out of the hull and sold it last week for 2200.00 I was lucky.


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

bought a sunfish in 1992 for $300 sold it two years later for $500, bought it back a year later for $300, sold it last year for $1k..hows that for boat flipping? i noticed the flipping kit comes with a "legal forms" pack... is that for bailing yourself outta jail?


----------



## saurav16 (Mar 22, 2007)

USPirate I love your avatar...

Flipping boats is def doable. I got my boat for half the surveyed fair value. I plan to work on it this winter sail it 2 more years and sell it for surveyed price or hoping a few thousand more... I think its doable if you are at all handy.


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

We recently purchased a 93 four winns stink pot for $4k with a bad engine. Nada is/was over 10k. I have considered flipping it to get a nice sailboat, but the wife almost flipped when I mentioned it. 

Here is the flipping I'm doing. $1800 engine, 400 distributor, 200 alt, 115 water pump, 135 fuel pump which I broke today , 100 impellor and parts, still need exhaust manifolds and risers 650 and going up (a foundry that made them burned to the ground). I even had to empty the gas tank to remove it and clean under it. Have you ever tried to deal with 65 gallons of fuel. And if I get it back together tomorrow I still have to fill it back up $175+ and at 13-18 gph that's only 5 hours run time max  

Ok I'm ready to flip it and get a sailboat. Anybody interested? Only $15k

oh yea, I'm doing all the labor.


----------



## danjarch (Jun 18, 2007)

My best friend's dad used to do it with cars. You don't have to be a jerk to make money at it. You do have to be very thorough by nature though. His dad would be driving along and see a car. when he would test drive it, he check every thing. Even in the middle of the summer he'd crank the heat on, then the defroster. Same thing right, nope often the vent controls would hang up on the defroster. If you need to take that coarse to figure out how to make money flipping boats, your going to loose a lot of money. You've got to have a knack for knowing whats most likely going to stay a $200 dollars fix, not snow ball into a $2000 dollar refit. That means wedging your self into the engine compartment until you can see that the motor mounts aren't rusted in two, and a thousand other things that the average guy doesn't think to check. That's how you spot the diamond from the rough.

Oh, one last thing. You've also got to be able to go a while with out buying anything, just because you haven't found something worth dealing with. That's what gets most people in the end. They make a buck or two off their first couple of finds. Then even when they don't feel that good about the deal. They go ahead anyway. Thinking they can get what they want for it "if they just". It's that "if they just" that usually cost more then the profit that you can make. 

I've had a couple of friends try it with boats and cars. They kept their day jobs.


----------



## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

you have to be willing to WAIT. Wait for the right boat to buy (very subjective) Wait for the rigt time to buy it, wait for the parts to repair it at a decent price, wait for the right seller to come along... not good for someone with ADHD.


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I didn't mean to imply that everyone whe ever made a buck flipping a boat is a jerk; I meant that to do it constantly as a successful business doubling your money on every boat you would probably have to prey on people. It's like the cartoon of the buzzards where one is telling the other he is going to go kill something. You can wait for the good deals or majke the good deals happen. The latter is when I think you can end up crossing the line. And if you buy a dog, you dress it up and make a buck anyway.
I think I could sell my recently purchased boat at a profit if I wanted, because I shopped hard, but I don't think I could constantly buy and sell and make much.


----------



## LyleRussell (May 3, 2006)

Practical Sailor magazine did an article several years ago about the dozen boats they have purchased and refurbished. Yes they made money on several boats but overall they lost money. And these guys are the experts. They state unequivocally that long term you can't make money fixing up old boats. I think the author was Dan Spurr.


----------



## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

In a good market, many boats will sell based on cosmetics. So you shine up the hull, put in new cushions and try to hide the blemishes. Bingo, you'll find a suc, oops buyer, to give you double your money. And hope the buyer doesn't hire a good surveyor


----------



## punjabi (Jul 16, 2007)

So as a buyer, I should probably get this course to learn how to find a good deal and instead of selling the boat, just sail the crap out of it and enjoy it.


----------



## Rockter (Sep 11, 2006)

Why, if the techniques are so good in this book, CD or whatever, would the authour ever tell you?

You are competition for him, surely? Why would he tell you how to do something that was so successful for him? Would he rather sell the book, or make money selling boats.

This looks very suspicious to me.

It's much better to spend the money on your own boat, and keep it.


----------



## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

I have been doing that boat flipping for years. It works, really!!!

Bought my catalina 250 for $35,000, sold it for $18,000. Bought my Trophy for 36,000, sold it for 28000 and a Dodge pickup truck thrown in so they could haul it back. Then I started REALLY realising what a great gig this was and how much more money could be made by being even smarter. Thus, I bought my Catalina 380 for 220,000, and (quietly, so no one is listening... I am going to write a book on this to get rich) traded it in on a Selene 47. Of course, the normal asking price was raised to 100,000 more than the sticker price... but that just meant I had more equity in the boat.

In the end, the Selene deal fell through because the stink pots did not want a sailboat on trade. THey had 4 offers on the boat (was in the Ft. Lauderdale boat show 2001). So, forget them... I sold the 380 for 160,000 and bought a Catalina 400. 

I am anxiously waiting the moment when I can finally retire and push this boat off on some poor unsuspecting sucker too...

Now THAT, my fellow sailors, is how you make money on boats!


----------



## robfinora (Apr 25, 2001)

I think it doable on the small stuff like everyone here has illustrated but its a volume game at that point. I even got great deals on the boats I have purchased for myself but ended up keeping / using for years. I think the difficult part comes with the 40+ foot boats where you are putting up serious money in hopes of serious returns....one bad hit there and your at a loss for the year.


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Flipping boats as a business?*

I ordered the course and thought it was great. I had a couple of questions and they emailed me back right away. Good folks - seem to be doing well at it.

It's not a book about fixing up old boats though! Plenty of materials about that already out there, but even they say that most fixer uppers are not so profitable.

A couple of quick points in response to the skeptics - because I was skeptical at first too.

Getting a deal doesn't mean ripping somebody off. How about estate sales, auctions, etc. I just saw a Newportt 30 close on eBay for $2190, or somthing like that, and it was pretty clean from what I could tell. I also saw an Allied Ketch, 31 feet, close for about $6000.

Providing a course about flipping boats doesn't mean these guys aren't still active in the game. There are more deals out there than anybody would have time to handle. Besides, I'd rather learn from somebody whose actually been doing it, then trying to figure it out on my own.

Anyway I figured what the heck - Maybe it's not for everybody but I'm glad I got it.


----------



## jasonr575 (Sep 12, 2006)

I also purchased this several years ago. Not so much to flip boats but more so to learn how to get a good price on a boat whe purchasing. Basically it is this, buy cheap, usually when someone is in despirate need of getting rid of the boat, strip if of all gear, shine it up as best as possible. then list the boat and gear separately for a high price and wait. , wait, and then you wait. in the mean time keep shining when the boat gets dirty and keep up with posting and advertising in papers and on internet. and then wait. while waiting be sure NOT to calculate how much it is costing you to keep that boat at the marina, especially if it is a second boat how much supplies are costing and definately dont calcualate in your time. One important thing they say is you must only buy boats you would be happy owning if they didnt sell. Obvious reason for that . 
It does have some good tips and point some things out i didnt think of. However when if first got into boating i met two guys who i was in awe of. One had a 45 bertrem nice boat. they said they flip boats , told me they just found a gem in the rough, were going to buy it form an older lady who didnt know the value of the boat and were going to fix it and sell it. In the 3 years that had passed one guy had two boats, one he had for sale for 2.5 years and it was sitting on the hard for all that time costing him $ just to stay there. saw the price drop 2 times. Also the bertram he has had for sale for 2 years and uses it but still owns it. Never heard of the gem any more and the other guy is still trying to sell the boat he fixed and had for sale 3 years ago.
Needless to say i am not in awe of them any more. 
it is possible to flip boats but can be costly to do it and it is a gamble. By the way the odds are not in you favor.


----------



## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

C2k, 
Caveat Emptor,
Both of the boats you mentioned on ebay were hurricane boats I don't know the specific condition of those.

I do know of one on ebay right now, a 27footer, in texas, they're asking 3500 or close to it. looks like a good deal, right?

Ummm, what they don't say is that boat had to be pumped out twice this year by the marina to prevent the keel from sitting on the bottom of the lake. 
What you don't see is ANY photos of the cabin any lower than your chest. (theres a reason for that) 
Most eyes looking at the photos may not be able to tell that every portlight leaks (and probably core rot) more than a kolher shower. The chainplates and bulkheads look like they were a decorative waterfall. The engine has been overheated based on the observation of the black intake/exhaust. 
but hey, its only 3500 and the engine runs.
no, i'm not bidding on it.


----------



## Gramp34 (Oct 5, 2006)

C2Kennedy said:


> Good folks - seem to be doing well at it.
> (snip)
> Besides, I'd rather learn from somebody whose actually been doing it, then trying to figure it out on my own.


Last year this outfit posted some listings for sailboats on eBay -- the boats were mediocre at best, the minimum bid was far beyond what they were worth (nobody bid), but most of their listing was about this great book they were selling. Once those listings expired they never showed up again.

I did a little looking and found that "SailboatsforProfit.com is a subsidiary of Providence Asset Management", which, it turns out, is headquartered in a rental mailbox in the Pakmail store in the Largo mall.

I couldn't find any information on "Providence Asset Management". They don't even have a phone number.

Their "about us" page says:

_We are a company of sailors and investors with over 3 decades and 120 years' collective experience in buying, selling and trading sailboats from 18 to 70 feet LOA throughout the US, Canada, Europe and the Caribbean._​
With all these people and experience I've always wondered why they don't have any names of their people, photos of actual boats they've bought and sold, or an accounting of their flips with the costs and revenues on each? The example they give of flipping a boat every 6 months at 100% return on investment is purely hypothetical.

Their ad sounds to me like somebody got one of those "make a fortune in real estate with no money down" books and substituted the word "sailboat" for the word "house".

You've seen the book C2k. Does it contain any real facts about Providence Asset Management's experience making real money with real boats, or is it all a bunch of "do as I say, not as I do" handwaving?

Cheers,

Tim


----------



## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"3 decades and 120 years' "
Must be the new math, I'd just call that 150 years.[g]

Auction fever has hit all sorts of markets--and ruined them--in the past 30 years. There's a reason why most all broker listings say something like "specifics believed but not known to be true, NO WARRANTIES..."


----------

