# Shrink wrap vs. Tarp



## labatt (Jul 31, 2006)

OK... wonderful Northeast - we have to cover our boat to keep the snow off of it. I need to cover the entire thing due to the teak decks plus the work we're doing on it. Covering the boat is not a choice (I know it's not good for it, but we have to).

My wife and I are trying to decide on buying a big tarp or two (and tying it down heavily) or getting the boat shrinkwrapped. We already committed to partnering with some boat buddies on shrinkwrapping it, but I believe they may be out of product by the time we get to my boat.

Anyway, is there anything wrong with using a very large tarp or two? I have some concerns, but I figured I'd let people voice their opinions before I put down some of my own. Would shrinkwrapping be better?

On a slightly different but related topic, how much would i expect to pay for a professional shrinkwrap job (if we've already built a frame).

If people think tarps are good, any suggestions on best practices?

Thanks!


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Get a proper frame and a tarp. The shrinkwrap is wasteful and it's difficult to let the boat "breathe".

Some tips I've learned the hard way: 

Get the tarp split into two pieces. One 35 foot chunk of waterproofed tarp is well over 100 lbs. and it is difficult to maneuver solo over the frames.

Leave some fenders out to leave an air gap between the hull and the tarp. It can get surprisingly warm in there (which makes deck work and even glassing possible...with ventilation...on cold days), and you don't want to trap condensation or to encourage mildew.

Either drop your stanchions or put tennis balls with a slit in them over their tops as anti-chafe...the wind WILL erode holes in the tarp if it touches anything metal.

Colour-code your frame "spine" and "legs" with electrical tape, number/letter code, or whatever you wish. A real time-saver if you only have a 90 minute window of wintry daylight in which to assemble the thing.

Bring a friend and two identical socket wrenches. After putting the spine in, put the largest set of legs (usually at the mid-point of the beam on, then work your way back.

Check the tarp periodically during the winter for ice-buildup, tears, or loosened ties. Visit the boat just to have a look around: I've had pleasant times under the tarp with pals who just want to hang out having a coffee with a shot in it on a cool...not cold...boat while the winter winds are howling outside. Of course, I run power to my boat all winter, because I like to leave the batteries in, so I can play the stereo!

Lastly, fold it carefully and stow the tarp OFF the floor (like on a rack or in the rafters) to keep it clean and free from mildew. Fold it dry. Lash the frames together in one bundle with short lengths of line or bungees, and you can fly it under the rafters of a garage for the summer.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Another option is to use the same material as your dodger?(brain dead at the moment). That's what I have and it works just fine and is much lighter than a tarp.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

In the long run, going with a cover frame and tarps makes more sense, and is probably far less damaging to the boat. Valiente has good info, as does TB, who posted about the frame system he made for his boat in several other threads. 

Since you are in Vermont, you will definitely want to make the frame steep enough to shed snow, or the frame work will likely collapse under the weight eventually. You also want to make sure the overlap point is well secured so that snow/wind/ice/rain doesn't find it way through there.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

The areas in a winter cover which are most vulnerable to water intrusion and damage are the standing rigging penetrations. The total number of penetrations will of course, impact your method choices for covering.

After considerable research, I had ambitions to fabricate a reusable cover using a cotton/synthetic fabric blend. The plan was to accommodate two masts with up to 14-16 shroud and stay penetrations, utilizing a combination of zippers, laced lashings with sewn flaps and fabric boots.

I constructed the *metal frame* using EMT and specialized clamps, but have been vacillating over the fabric phase - due to the complexity involved with these penetrations and the time involved to make this thing.

So, this will be the third winter I simply call the shrinkwrap guys to cover the frame. The material cost for the frame was $200 and shrinkwrapping charges for my 36 ft LOA ketch has risen in 3 years from $330 to $400 - (cheap). So, the total expense for covering (frame included) for 3 years will be about $1,300.

In contrast, I received an estimate for a custom fabric cover from Fairclough for over $5,000. Material and accessories to make the fabric cover myself would have been roughly $800 - plus many hours of labor and frustration - assuming my sewing machine is capable - otherwise the 600. cost of a new Sailrite machine would need to be factored in.

Of course, if you choose to unstep the masts each winter, the cover cost will be considerably less by the use of a simple tarp - but seasonal stepping and unstepping rigging fees will offset the savings.

I hope this information was helpful and if you'd like more details, please let me know.


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

We purchased a heavy-duty tarp from Harbor Freight and we're going to build a frame out of 6" dia. PVC (for the spine) and the heavier-duty sprinkler system pipe tie-wrapped to the stanchions. The advantage to the sprinkler system pipe is it's pre-curved. Saw two other boats doing this yesterday. If you put the spine up high enough, you can get the sprinkler pipe to curve right to the top of the stanchions, thus eliminating them as a trouble spot or having to remove them. Also: If you build the thing high enough, you can work in there in the winter. Or just hang out .

I haven't decided what I'm going to use to elevate the spine. It seems everybody else uses wood. I'm wondering if using the same PVC as the spine, or maybe 4" dia., slotted into the spine with T-fittings, and with the bases also formed of 4" PVC with T-fittings, might not work better? The only thing is the potential added expense.

Jim


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## AjariBonten (Sep 7, 2007)

Take two peanut butter sandwiches:

Put one in a sealed ziplock bag: 

Put one on a plate and lay a paper towel over it:

Leave for two weeks............

Then decide which "boat" you wanna "Eat"

The covered one may be dry and stale.......... But the one in the bag is gonna be moldy and soggy...............


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## christyleigh (Dec 17, 2001)

Here's some stories of the different methods I've used over the last 10 years or so.... I made semi-ridged frames (2" Black Well Pipe $50) for my c28 for a couple years to drape a $100 dollar tarp that worked well. My expansion of the existing frames to cover my c320 failed badly when we got a foot of wet heavy snow...... That's when I coughed up $3000 for a Fairclough 'mast up' cover. I loved it and it worked perfectly with little fuss except the weight of the 2 sections at about 40 and 60 lbs. When I traded in the c320 for the NC I kept the frame & cover. I sold the cover but kept the frame to use on the NC as my guesstimate on the cost was about $5,000.... what TB was actually quoted. So now every year I re-build (yesterday actually) the frame that is partially from the Fairclough and partially custom bent by me 1" galvanized steel tubing ending up with the same type of frame as TB. The difference is I do my own shrink wrapping. Last year I did my first shrink wrap which I will not post pictures of as it was a patchwork quilt mess that barely held together for the winter. I wanted clear instead of white for more solar heating as I'm down there every weekend working on the boat but I have since learned that the clear with its lower melt temp and other properties that make it harder to work with wasn't the best choice for my first attempt. I bought a couple rolls of white this fall so I'll hopefully I'll get better at it over the years. The used wrap gets put in a separate dumpster in the spring - hopefully for re-cycling. I also store in the water now which is Much Warmer for the winter boat work. By the way a properly vented shrink wrap is no more of a problem than any other method.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

AjariBonten said:


> Take two peanut butter sandwiches:
> 
> Put one in a sealed ziplock bag:
> 
> ...


Take two boats with teak decks and mount them on stands side by side during a long and harsh Northeast winter.

Cover one with vented shrink wrap or a waterproof tarp - sealing all penetrations.

Leave the other one exposed to winter's elements & freeze/thaw conditions (lay paper towels over the decks if you so choose).

Come next Spring, the decks under the vented shrinkwrapped boat will be dry and sound . . . but the decks on the one without a cover will be buckled, frost heaved and most fasteners pulled out of the coring - which will be thoroughly soaked, along with the moldy cabin spaces below.

You decide which boat you wanna sail next season . . .


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

TrueBlue said:


> Cover one with vented shrink wrap or a waterproof tarp - sealing all penetrations.
> 
> Leave the other one exposed to winter's elements & freeze/thaw conditions (lay paper towels over the decks if you so choose).


I suspect what Ajari was suggesting was the difference between vented and un-vented coverings, not covering vs. no covering.

Jim


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## BarryL (Aug 21, 2003)

Hello,

I had my 28' boat shrink wrapped over the winter for the last 3 years. The cost was about $350 for everything - they build the frame, shrink wrap the boat, install vents, and a door. 

I was very, very happy with shrink wrapping. The vents allow plenty of ventilation and the boat stayed very dry. The white plastic even allowed enough light through for a solar battery charger, left sitting on the deck, to keep the batteries charged.

My new boat (35') came with a winter cover. It's 3 large pieces of canvas type stuff. My boat is now out of the water  and in the yard. When I finish a few winterization tasks I'm going to try and cover the boat. The cover was made for mast up storage, and my mast is off the boat, so it will be interesting to see if I can make the cover work. If not. I will call the shrink wrap place right away.

In the yard I use, it's about 50 / 50 between shrink wrapped and tarps / over covers. I can tell you that at least 50% of the tarps, etc. don't make it through the winter. If you go down to the yard after a big storm, you will see lots of covers blowing around, doing a significant amount of damage. Last year I thought one guy was constructing a building around his boat! First good storm and it looked like the big bad wolf huffed and puffed and blew down his stick building. I have never seen a shrink wrapped boat have problems.

Anyway, it's up to you, if you cover it yourself, be careful in how you tie it down - don't go to the boat stands, don't let the cover chafe on the hull, don't let the frame fall down, etc.

Barry


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

I have tried both methods, and IMHO you either need to devote too much money or lots of labor/time to get a tarp/frame that is better than shrink wrap. As noted elsewhere in this thread, a custom canvas tarp is going to cost thousands; even more if you want them to build you a reusable frame too. Of course you don't need to pay this kind of money. You can build a nice frame yourself and cover it with cheaper tarps that will last a season or three. 

I copied an idea I saw somewhere on the web on building a PVC pipe frame for my boat. Covered it with a hardware store tarp myself. Total time spent: about 8 hours. Total cost for materials: about $75. It lasted about a week before the PVC frame broke. I spent another few hours fixing that first break with wood and duct tape. It broke again and again. I finally gave up trying to fix it. The mangled mess still kept most of the snow off her. I realized that I would need a much stronger frame. I designed one, only to realize that I really didn't have the time to make it. It would have taken me probably two whole days (most likely a skilled carpenter could have knocked it off in a few hours). I just don't have that kind of time to devote to the boat. So, every year now I pony up a few hundred bucks to have my boat shrinkwrapped. I don't have the moisture/condensation problems that others here have described. Vents and well-placed openings around the stern pulpit keep air moving. I don't like the expense, but my alternatives are to buy a cover that cost more than the boat, or devote time that I don't have. Not much of a choice.


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## christyleigh (Dec 17, 2001)

BarryL said:


> My new boat (35') came with a winter cover. It's 3 large pieces of canvas type stuff. My boat is now out of the water  and in the yard. When I finish a few winterization tasks I'm going to try and cover the boat. The cover was made for mast up storage, and my mast is off the boat, so it will be interesting to see if I can make the cover work.


Barry, 
The Fairclough 'mast up' covers have very good cinching turtlenecks at the mast and the shroud exits. I have stored with the mast down when I had mine and simply cinched up those turtlenecks and only got a few drops of water in.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

One caveat that hasn't been mentioned here yet. If your boat is painted, especially with Awlgrip- *DO NOT LET THE SHRINK WRAP TOUCH THE PAINTED SURFACE FOR ANY EXTENDED PERIOD OF TIME*. If the shrink wrap remains in contact with the painted surface, there's a really good chance you'll get some nice bubbling of the paint.


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## labatt (Jul 31, 2006)

I forgot to mention - I would be using the inexpensive $100-$200 type of synthetic tarp - not the multi-thousand custom tarp. We've already built a great frame - 1" electrical conduit and a pipe bender worked wonderfully. Since we'll be selling the boat next year, we don't want to invest in a custom cover - we will never get our money back for it. My concern about the inexpensive tarps was their potential abrasiveness against parts of the boat as the wind comes up and under and shakes the tarp. There is no way to stop this from happening. I felt shrink wrap would not do the same thing.

SD - I have no idea if my hull is painted. If it was, then it was many many years ago. I'm assuming it's just gelcoat.


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## saltypat (Oct 8, 2006)

*West marine tarps?*

I am keeping my Ches. Bay sailboat in the water this year. I bought 2 10 by 15 tarps from West Marine.

We don't get much snow, so my idea is to put these over the boat and tie to the rub rail which is metal and easy to tie to.

I am trying to keep the teak somewhat protected, and the boat dryer.

They seem a bit like heavy reinforced plastic, silver in color.

If they don't last through a heavy blow I am only out $25 apiece.

I am wondering if I am seriously doomed for failure, and if anyone else has used these inexpensive tarps.

Thanks, SaltyPat


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

The inexpensive tarps I used last year where bought from Harbor Freight. They were on sale and very cheap. I bought 3 times the amount that I needed. I may have spent as little as $5.00 each. I used last years tarp to wrap my mast. Fresh tarps bought last year will be used on the boat, this year. I tie them down around the bottom of the boat and not to the rub rail.


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## pegasus1457 (Apr 14, 2002)

SEMIJim said:


> We purchased a heavy-duty tarp from Harbor Freight and we're going to build a frame out of 6" dia. PVC (for the spine) and the heavier-duty sprinkler system pipe tie-wrapped to the stanchions. The advantage to the sprinkler system pipe is it's pre-curved. Saw two other boats doing this yesterday. If you put the spine up high enough, you can get the sprinkler pipe to curve right to the top of the stanchions, thus eliminating them as a trouble spot or having to remove them. Also: If you build the thing high enough, you can work in there in the winter. Or just hang out .
> 
> I haven't decided what I'm going to use to elevate the spine. It seems everybody else uses wood. I'm wondering if using the same PVC as the spine, or maybe 4" dia., slotted into the spine with T-fittings, and with the bases also formed of 4" PVC with T-fittings, might not work better? The only thing is the potential added expense.
> 
> Jim


I did this for a couple of seasons, but have given it up for a [better] method. What I did not like about the heavy sprinkler tubing is that the pieces you need to span an 8.5' beam are really unwieldy to transport from the boatyard to the house. Also the only way I could fix them to the stanchions was to slide them over. Convenient? Not really, because I had to take down my lifelines  But if you are going to follow this method, it is much easier to get the curvature you want after pouring some hot water into the black tubing to soften it.

My current method involves PVC plumbing tubing. I think it is 3/4 in. I cable tie these to the inside face of the stanchions, then join them into a hoop by overlapping and cable tying and using duct tape to reduce wear on the tarp. The spine is made from lengths of 2" PVC joined together with PVC couplings and screwed together. It is inside the hoops and connected to them by duct tape. It is there only to keep the hoops from moving, not to support any weight. The spine is supported by the bow pulpit and 2 wooden fixtures with carpeting underneath to protect the deck.

The advantage of either method is that the tarp is forced into a convex shape so that it does not form pockets to collect snow or water.

Finally, to hold the whole thing together, I use tarp grabbers (not the grommets) to gather in several thicknesses of tarp, joined under the hull using bungees and rope. Each connection has one bungee even though there may be some rope at either end. This is more effective than trying to tie it up tight or using antifreeze gallon jugs or ... It works well because when a gust of wind hits the tarp the bungees yield a bit, relieving the stress that would have ripped out the grommet or tarp grabber. Last year I did not have to retie anything. For me that was a first.


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## AjariBonten (Sep 7, 2007)

Thanks Jim, That's what I was pretty much gonna say.
I think that the _average_ job of shrink-wrapping may do more harm than good.

A well done tarp arrangement can be a lot better than a poor wrapping job; and visa-versa.

I don't know about other places, but there was a big push in DownEast Maine a few years ago to sell the shrink-wrapping equipment as a quick money/low investment scheme; therefore there are a LOT of low skill shoddy/workmanship "wrappers" around.



SEMIJim said:


> I suspect what Ajari was suggesting was the difference between vented and un-vented coverings, not covering vs. no covering.
> 
> Jim


TB, I wasn't suggesting leaving a boat un-covered, though I may have been rather unclear about that. I was suggesting wha tI just explained above; but was rushed. I should never post in a hurry................


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> You also want to make sure the overlap point is well secured so that snow/wind/ice/rain doesn't find it way through there.


Prevailing winds play a role here. I have my tarp opening like a tent flap tied at the aft end of the boat, and I frequently tried to have my stern pointed south or south east, as this is the least likely direction locally from which freezing rain/snow/blizzard will arrive. Also having the boat pointing into the prevailing winds makes chafe less of an issue.


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## labatt (Jul 31, 2006)

Ouch... My marina recommended a guy who charges $21/foot to shrinkwrap, not including a frame (which we already have built). I'll have to see who else is on Lake Champlain and can do it... Or we're definitely going the tarp route.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

One reason I store my boat indoors, rather than shrinkwrapping or tarping it is cost.... the price difference for my boat between outdoor storage and indoor storage is almost the cost of shrinkwrapping in my neck of the woods. I figure, for the slight premium, my boat is better protected from the elements, and I can work on it in more comfort during the limited hours the marina is open during the off-season... and I don't have to deal with the problems of unwrapping her and such.


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## Pub911 (Oct 25, 2007)

For what it's worth...I have 5 year old Awlgrip job that looks brand new on my 30 year old NorthStar 38, despite use of a "home-depot" type plastic tarp. The trick? I wrap the hull with a blanket of soft fleece-like stretchy material. Admittedly, it looks silly while I'm doing it, but the boat pops out in the spring spit-shined, verses scuffed.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Pub911 said:


> For what it's worth...I have 5 year old Awlgrip job that looks brand new on my 30 year old NorthStar 38, despite use of a "home-depot" type plastic tarp. The trick? I wrap the hull with a blanket of soft fleece-like stretchy material. Admittedly, it looks silly while I'm doing it, but the boat pops out in the spring spit-shined, verses scuffed.


The blanket is anti-chafe, or the fabric equivalent of a sacrificial anode.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

More importantly, it prevents moisture from being trapped against the paint job and causing the blistering I mentioned previously.


Valiente said:


> The blanket is anti-chafe, or the fabric equivalent of a sacrificial anode.


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## KismetP362 (Nov 6, 2006)

This will be my 4th winter in Maine with a sizable boat and every year I've shrunk wrap the boat myself. 

This is not rocket science people! buy the $100 torch gun, every year I buy one '120 roll on-line with shipping it costs $140. I get two "new coverings" out of that one roll. 

The ice and Snow, (we get a lot of both here in Maine) slide right off the slick surface. 

I made mini A-frames to stand OUTSIDE my stanchions to keep the stress independent of the deck.

And it's fun to burn all the hair off your arm between the end of the jacket and the beginning of the gloves you wear.


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## labatt (Jul 31, 2006)

Rick - I only wish. We kept our 23' boat in indoor storage before we sold it. I don't know of any indoor storage facility on Lake Champlain that could take a boat of our size. There is one on the Hudson that we considered bringing Pelican to but they didn't heat the storage facility and it was only open M-F 9:30am-4pm. From what I understand, it gets in the 40's in there, so most of the work that we'd want to do couldn't be done anyway. Also, there would be close to a $500 difference to store my boat inside vs. your boat. Add to that a several hundred dollar difference to unstep/step the mast, etc., and I just can't justify the price.

By the way - we will be shrinkwrapping the boat, and we'll be doing it ourselves. I'm going to buy 6 or 7 of those solar vents to put on the shrinkwrap to keep the air moving around on the inside. I was considering leaving an opening on the bow and perhaps the stern, but they are predicting a nasty winter and I don't want snow building up on our teak decks through an opening.


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## AjariBonten (Sep 7, 2007)

labatt said:


> I'm going to buy 6 or 7 of those solar vents to put on the shrinkwrap to keep the air moving around on the inside.


How well would those work in the winter? 
Can you place them so they don't get covered with snow? (I suppose you could build a plywood panel to mount them in, adn shrinkwrap around that.) 
I like that idea, if it will work. I was just wondering if anyone here has used them in that application?


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## labatt (Jul 31, 2006)

The frame we built will keep the wrap at a fairly steep slope, hopefully making the snow slide off fairly quickly. We'll put the solar vents on the angles, so they should remain uncovered most of the time. I'd be interested to hear anyone else's experience with them too. Also, we plan on getting a "door" for the shrink wrap too.


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## merttan (Oct 14, 2007)

*A warning for NE...*

It's not really related to how you cover your boat. However, make sure the drains do not freeze and block water during winter. There are so many examples of boats flooding in winter with rain water. Cockpit floods, then the cabin... And causes extreme damages to interior... Just a warning...


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## christyleigh (Dec 17, 2001)

labatt said:


> We'll put the solar vents on the angles, so they should remain uncovered most of the time. I'd be interested to hear anyone else's experience with them too. Also, we plan on getting a "door" for the shrink wrap too.


I wouldn't bother with trying to rig solar vents. To me that's getting a bit paranoid about the falacy that shink wrap = dampness. The plastic Clam Shell Vents purchased from the same companies that sell the shrink wrap is all you need. YOU control the ventilation of your wrap if you are doing it, and if you don't, simply tell the wrappers how many vents you want and where. Of course if you do a swiss cheese version of a patchwork quilt as I did last year you don't have to add any vents at all  You can also purchase zippered doors from the shrink wrap catalogs that can be cut out and used for a few years. I added frame stand-offs to keep my frame a couple inches outside the teak hand rails at the top of the stanchions so I can do the annual light sand and re-coat under wraps in the spring - which also aids in ventilation because the bottom of the wrap will be wrapped around a line inches from the hull - unlike the paid wrappers who usually have that line touching the hull which may be a problem in itself. Some people at my marina who pay to have it done add a stand-off around the gunwale area to keep that from happening.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

I fully agree with Stan that there's too much false information and hysteria regarding shrinkwrapping. It is the best way to keep moisture off your boat . . . IF proper ventilation and standoffs are used.

In addition to a reusable zippered access panel (3 years with the same panel now), I have had at least 6 of those clamshell vents installed in my shrinkwrap jobs - very effective. To assist in controlling excess moisture, I fill three shoebox size containers with a 50/50 mix of calcium chloride and cat litter and distribute them in the cabins below. Never had a mildew problem with this boat.

My frames are also held outside of the rails, by standoffs clamped to the stanchions - as shown in this pic:


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## christyleigh (Dec 17, 2001)

TrueBlue said:


> My frames are also held outside of the rails, by standoffs clamped to the stanchions - as shown in this pic:


That's the way I connected my frames last year. This year I doubled the 'stand-off' with a second parallel connector connected to a 4" piece of framing, then the frame connects to that. That way I can freely work on the hand/stanchion rail and gunwales without the frame or the wrap interfering.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

Good idea Stan! I considered that as well, but accepted the maximum offset allowed by the standard clamp dimension. It does clear the top rail in *most* areas, although not enough to allow for teak refinishing with the cover in place, especially the toerail.

How did you solve the bow pulpit standoff issue?


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## christyleigh (Dec 17, 2001)

I don't have vertical frame attached to my pulpit on the side - only the backbone doing a curved 90 degree turn at the forestay and attached to the pulpit seat frame with a T as you show. Since my only concern is to keep the wrap away from the teak I'll probably just add a little horizontal stand off along the rail where you connect that vertical frame member just to ease the transition from my last vertical.


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

TradewindSailing said:


> Best feature are the "Griff clips" which hold the tarp without holes or grommets.


I just received a bag of these. (Due to time contraints, this year, at least, we're using multiple smaller tarps from Home Depot or Lowe's). I've got to say: Just experimenting on the tarp material in which the Griff Clips are packaged, I'm impressed with them, so far.

Here's the manufacturer's product page: Reef Industries, Inc. - Griff Clip IV.

Jim


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

*Using a cheap tarp (blue one) successfully*

I have a friend with a Bayfield 40 who has had great success with old, el cheapo tarps. He gets most of them from the dumpster after people have torn out grommets in them. His secret is to use the grommets only to hold the tarp in place while he ties the tarp down with many light ropes over the top of the tarp from one side of the cradle to the other. He uses whatever old hunks of line he has (often from the dumpster) and uses many lines going in different directions. Seems to work really well and close to free.


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## Shawney (Nov 29, 2010)

I have big white marks on my red hull (Interlux Brightside) from the shrink wrap. I took the wrap off before the warm sun so there would not be a problem but I think problem occured when shrink wrap was put on - too much heat used. I tried 800 grit sanding and compound but still have white marks.
Any suggestions?


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