# Ipad for GPS



## glmark (May 14, 2010)

I see many folks using laptops for GPS, does anyone use an Ipad? If I wait one more season to start using GPS on our lake, I will have found every rock and shallow spot the hard way!


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

While i like my ipad its a fragile device unless you put it in and OtterBox by some software and pay for 3g service at which point it cost a good deal more than a far more robust chart plotter that you can read in sunlight 

Now i even have a paper chart for Lake George Ny that tells me whats underwater  and find its the best thing to know were bad stuff is


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## cb32863 (Oct 5, 2009)

I think you need charts for your lake if you are finding shallow spots and rocks.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

I think it was on the Colbert Report that I heard "The iPad is not dishwasher safe, don't ask me how I know this."

Unlike marine chartplotters, which usually won't be bothered by splashing on a lake.


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## night0wl (Mar 20, 2006)

Bad idea.

First of all, the wifi only ipads dont have any gps. They use network locatiing triangulation. Its decent...but you need to be on a network!

The 3g ipad does have GPS..its called A-GPS. Reports are conflicted on whether this is a true chip gps...but one thing is for certain, it uses cell tower triangulation to assist the gps in getting a fix be it faster and more detailed location awareness. Not good when you're out there.

There is a dedicated GPS that can attach to the ipad through its data port...but at that point, why spend the money. Better alternatives.


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## LinekinBayCD (Oct 19, 2009)

glmark said:


> I see many folks using laptops for GPS, does anyone use an Ipad? If I wait one more season to start using GPS on our lake, I will have found every rock and shallow spot the hard way!


If you want an Ipad get a Ipad. They are pretty cool but they are not a GPS that can get banged around, get wet, get dropped on deck andx steped on, etc. The handheld Garmins are pretty sturdy and a good value with preloaded charts. If all your sailing is on one lakem a base model with the purchase of the charts you need might be a better value unless you may move on to the great blue ocean in the future.


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## ggalanis (Jul 11, 2010)

*iPhone 4 w/ Navionics App works great!*

Hope an iPad version is in the works.


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## nop (Dec 23, 2010)

I use iNavX for the iPad and iPhone. I really like it.

I have the 3g version of the iPad, but the app doesn't need any connection because you pre-download all of the charts.

I've done some fairly tricky navigation with it, and I wouldn't use anything else.


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## jimmytc (Aug 30, 2004)

iNavX on iPhone and iPad is awesome.
I like my ipad better than my chartplotter!


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I'm giving the Ipad a try this next cruising season, but I'm told there will be a new release in Jan or Feb that I'm waiting for.

There are several aftermarket waterproof cases. I'm hoping a GPS puck fits inside as well, as I don't think the onboard GPS is accurate or reliable enough, from what I'm being told by others.


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## cb32863 (Oct 5, 2009)

ggalanis said:


> Hope an iPad version is in the works.


Isn't the OS the same version?


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## windward54 (Apr 12, 2000)

If you want to use an iPad/iPhone, there is a GPS plug-in module that you can use. It will increase accuracy and give you GPS when you are away from a cell tower.

Bad Elf | Bad Elf GPS for iPod touch, iPhone, & iPad

Sold at Amazon for about $100.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

nop said:


> I use iNavX for the iPad and iPhone. I really like it.
> 
> I have the 3g version of the iPad, but the app doesn't need any connection because you pre-download all of the charts.
> 
> I've done some fairly tricky navigation with it, and I wouldn't use anything else.





jimmytc said:


> iNavX on iPhone and iPad is awesome.
> I like my ipad better than my chartplotter!


Does iNavX support course-up mode? That would be an absolute necessity in my book for cockpit use. I tried it on my son's iPad, and could not find a setting to enable it.

I am in a similar debate over which of these options:


Get a NookColor for eRead and Android fun stuff, or iPad for eReading and lots of other stuff including big screen chart plotter (I have an Oregon 400c that I've been using and could always be brought out in foul weather)
Get a GPSmap 640, which would eventually allow me to interface depth, DSC, and AIS into one centralized display
Figure out a way to mount my Netbook (with very bright display) with OpenCPN for fair weather use.
Just keep using the Oregon 400c that I used last year.


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## Greenman (Apr 19, 2008)

I have the Navionics Ap on my IPad, it works great so far (although I bought it in the fall so have not used it on the water yet) for $29.99 it came with all the Maps of Atlantic Canads and Eastern US, and it updates itself. 

The IPad fits perfectly in a large Glad Freezer Bag with room for a thin styrofoam pad if you are worried about dropping it overboard, or banging it around too much. 

Would I use it as my primary? Not likely, but I will use it or especially give it to guests to play with and follw our course. As a back up to paper I it will work fine.


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

*Planning Purposes*

We've been using Navionics on IPad and IPhone as a secondary system. I find it more useful for planning purposes than real time navigation. A typical use might be figuring out where we are going tomorrow while sitting at anchor. The feature set on the Navionics App is nice, but cannot compare to a full on chart plotter integrated with your radar, AIS, and sailing instruments, IMHO.
But if you have these devices for other uses anyway, $29.99 is a such a small fraction of a boat buck, I think its worth playing with, and might even work as a backup in some instances.

That said, we carry paper charts for everyplace we go or might end up going if the plan changes. If the satellites fall from the sky, an EMP puts out all the electronics, our batteries die, and our software crashes we can still look up from the screens at the real world and find our way Oh and we do recommend looking up occasionally, it does make the sailing experience more pleasurable


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## JBIZZ (Apr 3, 2009)

I've used both Navionics and InavX on my iphone 4 to navigate from Fort Lauderdale to Elliot Key in Biscayne bay at night a couple times along with my paper charts. I'd recommend Navionics, seems a little more user friendly. I plan on getting an Ipad and mounting it at the helm eventually. Just waiting to see what the next generation Ipad will have in it. Navionics is also available for android platforms now as well.


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## LakeCruiser (Nov 11, 2010)

cb32863 said:


> I think you need charts for your lake if you are finding shallow spots and rocks.


I bought Navigons Apps for my iphone One for "US Lakes East". And one for the Caribbean. The lakes program shows all the cans, reefs, rocks, marinas, depths, etc on Champlain, and I'm sure would do so for Lk George. It works just like the laptop version. Sailed in the BVI's and it was spot-on compared to the onboard GPS.


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## seabreeze_97 (Apr 30, 2006)

Maybe something can be borrowed from the aviation community.
iPad | iCub


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## Sequitur (Feb 13, 2007)

I use the Navionics app in our iPad as a fourth look. It is a great additional input, and I also love it for passage planning and seeing ahead without disrupting the E120 and E80 chartplotters. A recent use along the coast of Peru as we approached an unknown coast at night is a few scrolls down this link: Passage to Chile


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## asdf38 (Jul 7, 2010)

night0wl said:


> Bad idea.
> The 3g ipad does have GPS..its called A-GPS. Reports are conflicted on whether this is a true chip gps...but one thing is for certain, it uses cell tower triangulation to assist the gps in getting a fix be it faster and more detailed location awareness. Not good when you're out there.


So there is some historical reason for confusion here. Many devices in the past have been described as having GPS when they weren't actually communicating with the GPS satellite systems. And many devices can provide location information without it - for example the original iPhone.

But, as of today, nearly every cell phone and smart phone has a true, satelite based GPS chip, including the current iPhones and iPad 3G. Cell phones have assisted GPS and that's a good thing - assisted GPS is improved GPS.

For a full, detailed, explanation of GPS and AGPS as it's evolved for cell phones read this article.
Inside assisted GPS: helping GPS help you

In summery, details of the satellite based system are somewhat surprising - without some type of assistance any GPS receiver needs 12.5 minutes to assemble the information needed to fully lock its location from a cold start. The GPS satellites are incredibly slow - they send only 50 bits per second. Modern standalone receivers use a variety of methods to improve on this - they cache some data about satelite locations and remember their last location. This helps them lock a position after receiving partial information.

Cell phones have the advantage of a whole additional set of data and they use it - cell towers and wifi networks. In the case of the iPhone and iPad they leverage technology from a company who literally drives trucks around the country mapping the ID's of household wifi routers. Phones with wifi can tap into this and cell towers to get an immediate idea of where they are. They also feed this to the sattelite GPS algorithms to give it a head start while it tries to piece toghether the slow satellite based data.

So what you'll see with an iPhone or iPad 3G in the middle of the ocean is a device that's not exactly designed to be there. I suspect it's algorithms are optimized to leverage wireless data and will be surprised to fine none. The iPad 3G will absolutely lock your location, it will just do it slowly.

EDIT: Corrected to reflect that only iPad 3G's have "real" satellite based GPS.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

asdf38 said:


> So there is some historical reason for confusion here. Many devices in the past have been described as having GPS when they weren't actually communicating with the GPS satellite systems. And many devices can provide location information without it - for example the original iPhone.
> 
> But, as of today, nearly every cell phone and smart phone has a true, satelite based GPS chip, including the current iPhones and iPad...
> 
> ...So what you'll see with an iPhone or iPad in the middle of the ocean is a device that's not exactly designed to be there. I suspect it's algorithms are optimized to leverage wireless data and will be surprised to fine none. The iPad will absolutely lock your location, it will just do it slowly.


You seem to be saying that all models of iPad, including the WiFi-only versions, have a GPS satellite chip in them. Can you confirm that this is true? If I get one, this fact will greatly affect which model I select.


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## asdf38 (Jul 7, 2010)

RhythmDoctor said:


> You seem to be saying that all models of iPad, including the WiFi-only versions, have a GPS satellite chip in them. Can you confirm that this is true? If I get one, this fact will greatly affect which model I select.


That was my mistake, I should have distinguished between the iPad's but got carried away going into the details.

As others have said, only iPad 3G's have "real" satellite based GPS. I edited the post to reflect that.


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## Liquorice (Nov 28, 2007)

I took my iPad with iNavX to the San Juans in late Sept and to the BVI's in late Nov.
As a Canadian, my provider package gives me cell coverage anywhere in Canada, but I get roaming charges anywhere outside the country. So I turn it off outside Canada. In the middle of Bellingham Bay or Drake Channel, BVI's there is no Wi-Fi either.
The iPad worked great. Seemed fast too! ...And it does have course up!

I wouldn't mount it at the wheel - not too good in bright sunlight and not waterproof. But as a secondary system, real usefull. As skipper of a chartered C&C 115 in Bellingham, I used it to confirm for myself that we were where we should have been, without continually looking over the helmsman's shoulder.

...and I get e-mail and Internet too when we dock.


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## shutterflypro (Dec 5, 2008)

I actively cruised with my iPad. It turned out to be a true lifesaver. When I came into areas that I did not have a chip for it was able to let me know what exactly was below me at all times. At the time I only had the WiFi version but I was using the Sprint Overdrive which does have a GPS chip in it and the iPad was getting its numbers from there.

If you are planning on getting an iPad for Cruising, I recommend you get the 3g version. You do not have to pay for AT&Ts service to use all of the features you will need for iNavX or Navionics.

Throughout all of the storms my boat, me and my iPad survived the iPad never once faltered. I did take care to stow it when it was not in use and a if the weather turned bad. My iPad did take the occasional splash and spray but it never was submerged. While yes it is fragile, I do believe you will find it much more robust than you think.


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## sailjunkie (Nov 4, 2009)

LinekinBayCD said:


> If you want an Ipad get a Ipad. They are pretty cool but they are not a GPS that can get banged around, get wet, get dropped on deck andx steped on, etc. The handheld Garmins are pretty sturdy and a good value with preloaded charts. If all your sailing is on one lakem a base model with the purchase of the charts you need might be a better value unless you may move on to the great blue ocean in the future.


Well said. My Garmin has served us very well.

Also, while iPads are impressive, I don't think that they can interface with other electronics that use the NMMEA protocol. Even my handheld Garmin will interface with the autohelm. Many of the larger chartplotters can also interface with radar.


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## shutterflypro (Dec 5, 2008)

sailjunkie said:


> Well said. My Garmin has served us very well.
> 
> Also, while iPads are impressive, I don't think that they can interface with other electronics that use the NMMEA protocol. Even my handheld Garmin will interface with the autohelm. Many of the larger chartplotters can also interface with radar.


Actually with some of the new devices coming out you can interface it with other devices on board. The technology is coming around.


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## engele (Nov 26, 2006)

We use our ipad all of the time for this. We have a Garmin plotter as well, but sailing up into Canada this summer it lacked cartography. I would recommend it to anyone as a backup, or if you are taking a trip somewhere where you don't yet have charts. The Navionics apps are cheap and the iphone versions will run (and are even cheaper, though lower resolution). iNavX has it's problems and I can't recommend it. I really wish I could get a refund, both for the app and the international charts from Fugawi. The charts are essentially rentals with a time out on the time you can download them, so if you ever need to restore your ipad later you are SOL.


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## glmark (May 14, 2010)

What a great site! I appreciate all the help! The day after I posted the question, I saw on the national news that commercial pilots are now allowed to use the ipad for navigation. (provided they also have paper charts).


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## ismwo (Nov 30, 2010)

iNavX on iPhone.Itouch and iPad is great and Anchor alarm its number 1
I like my ipad better than my paper charts, easier to read (more current)!


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## sealover (Jun 27, 2009)

*alright how about an ipad 2 ?*

Thinking of getting an ipad 2... (non-3g) will it function any better than a first generation ipad as far as being a chart plotter?

Also, those who use their ipads for Nav/Chart plotting -- what kind of battery life do you get?

I have a droid phone with the Navionics app and it works great for chartplotting but the GPS use eats battery so I rarely use it. I run my depthfinder off a 12V car jump starter so I don't have limitless power. (and no car charger for the droid, so I can't even charge that on the boat)

Or should I get a used ipad when the 2nd one comes out and everyone unloads their old ones cheap?

Would be nice to have the camera aspect of the new one (not necessarily for sailing, but for other things)

I'm sure I could come up with some sort of holder for it so it would stay attached to the boat, maybe on a swing-out mount in the companionway so it's shielded from direct sun and not likely to get splashed, but can be moved inside in case of rain (I can sit inside the boat and watch movies, I suppose)

Thanks!


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

sealover said:


> ...I'm sure I could come up with some sort of holder for it so it would stay attached to the boat, maybe on a swing-out mount in the companionway so it's shielded from direct sun and not likely to get splashed, but can be moved inside in case of rain...


If you're serious enough about it to spend some money to do it right, this is what you want. Works great with a pedestal guard. I'll be using it with a netbook, which is a little heavier than an iPad. If you have a tiller they have other attachment devices that will work. You could buy two attachment balls, with one in the cockpit and another in the cabin, and move the iPad/bracket back and forth - or get a long arm and swing it in the companionway like you described:

RAM Mount Tough Tray II HD Dual Steel U-Bolt Netbook Mount 1.5 Ball, RAM-101-235-234-6


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

RythmD.... very cool idea. I suggest putting the Ipad in a waterproof case before installing in a device like this (assuming it will fit). Then you've got a pretty neat and portable chart plotter solution, not to mention its other functions.


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## sealover (Jun 27, 2009)

If that same RAM mount would put my wife's little Garmin GPS on my motorcycle AND be adjusted out enough to put an ipad on my boat it might be worth the incredibly high (for my low standards) price. When Minnewaska said "waterproof case" I thought "Saran wrap" (See my subject line) Really, I'd want it twice a year when I venture into big water. The rest of the time I'm in inland lakes and rivers which aren't charted and my el-cheapo fishfinder/GPS tells me how to get back to the dock, and how fast I'm going. Not saying I wouldn't use the ipad, just that I wouldn't need it. If I had an ipad now I'd probably be typing these words on it. (Even though it's likely slower and less tactile feedback than the real keyboard I'm using now)


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

sealover said:


> If that same RAM mount would put my wife's little Garmin GPS on my motorcycle AND be adjusted out enough to put an ipad on my boat it might be worth the incredibly high (for my low standards) price...


It's WAY overkill for a handheld GPS. Garmin makes handlebar mounts for bicycles and motorcycles. I use one for mounting my handheld GPS on the pedestal guard. I found it online for $10. Do some searching.


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## sealover (Jun 27, 2009)

I wonder if an ipad would blow off of a Suzuki at 65 mph....


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## genieskip (Jan 1, 2008)

I just spent $29 for the Navionics system for my Ipad and I can't believe how great the system is. I already have the Ipad G3, so I didn't have to buy it and I don't know If I'd spring for that much for it as a navigation system. I have two chartplotters aboard, one for the helm and one for the nav station, so I don't need it for that, but I bring the Ipad instead of a stack of books when cruising so it is a cheap addition and well worth it for route planning or just chart dreaming while lying in my bunk. And I can keep it well protected in a waterproof bag while sailing. I don't think I'd want it on deck in a squall. I'd probably pop it into the oven (a handy Faraday box) along with a handheld VHS in a thundersquall in case the other electronics got fried as has happened to me before.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

My droid and I pad have their place and I really like their flexability. I do however prefer having a chartplotter with radar which overlays overtop of it (Raymarine C-80) at the helm. A lot of the time I really used my chartplotter was in windy and also rainy foggy conditions which are not good for the Ipads and I like having it inh front of my wheel at the helm vs the companionway.

I have used my ipad to secreatly sit there and check whether my wife was holding her course when she was at the helm.

Dave


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

chef2sail said:


> ...I have used my ipad to secreatly sit there and check whether my wife was holding her course when she was at the helm...


Hmm, sounds like good dinner conversation!


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## sealover (Jun 27, 2009)

On a 17 foot boat the companionway is at the helm (tiller) I'd love a radar overlay but I think the radar dome at the top of the mast would make my boat fall over. Keep in mind my entire boat (including motor and trailer ) cost less than the 64 gig ipad 3g. 

I'd like an ipad 2 for consumer uses primarily, but the added nautical use helps justify spending $500.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

New iPad is available in the USA tomorrow!!!

Is someone gunna buy one pronto? Can you tell us how it is?

I wanna I wanna I wanna


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## zboss (Mar 26, 2006)

Navionics is completely missing sandy spit bvi in "chart only" view, so you still need to remain vigilant!


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> New iPad is available in the USA tomorrow!!!
> 
> Is someone gunna buy one pronto? Can you tell us how it is?
> 
> I wanna I wanna I wanna


I ordered mine online on Fri, but it won't arrive for a couple of weeks. Plan to set it up as a backup nav device. Going to experiment without a gps puck, but that may be required. Getting a waterproof case too.

Certainly the wifi and 3G web access should make float planning more accessible.


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## chinook88 (Nov 23, 2008)

*iPad gps*

I just purchased one of the new bad elf devices from USA it arrived after 8 days to Australia. Plugged it in to my wifi iPad and then downloaded. The free app for the device. I had already downloaded the navionics app for 16 bucks.
It took about 2 minutes to set itself up for down under and then logged in to the satellites inside 30 seconds . Tried it out on the water and found it to be within 10 feet at any time. 
Building a watertight case for the setup this weekend so I don't have to teach the iPad to swim.
I have no connection with bad elf just found the ten on the net and I am delighted with it


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

zboss said:


> Navionics is completely missing sandy spit bvi in "chart only" view, so you still need to remain vigilant!


I have mentioned this before, but worth noting.

I have found several mislabeled aids to nav in Navionics that I use both on the Android and a chartplotter. Less crucial errors include misplaced marinas with incorrect information.


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## sealover (Jun 27, 2009)

I got the new ipad 2 on Friday night. Downloaded the navimatics app to use with active captain. Non 3g ipads don't have GPS so I'll still have to use my crude fishfinder (or Droid) for coordinates if dead reckoning doesn't do.


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

Although on my own boat, IPAD/IPHONE/Navionics are for backup and planning, I found myself in St. John, St. Thomas, Vieques, and Culebra on charter last week with my IPAD and IPHONE with Navionics. It was a very nice way to double check on our paper chart/eyeball nav, and was accurate everyplace we went, including some unfamiliar places in the Spanish Virgins. It seems power hungry, but with a cigarette lighter plug/charger, we just left it running on the nav station. You can read it on deck, but it's not as bright as true sunlight readable displays IMHO.

I still would not use it as primary on my own boat, but I have to say, it worked flawlessly during this trip. If you have either of these devices for other reasons, adding the nav software is low incremental cost, and provides a nice backup system. 

Again, remember to look up occasionally  . Reality when sailing is better than virtual reality, again IMHO.


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## sailjunkie (Nov 4, 2009)

zboss said:


> Navionics is completely missing sandy spit bvi in "chart only" view, so you still need to remain vigilant!


My advanced navigation instructor encouraged us to utilize every tool at our disposal. GPS is a valuable tool to help me:


check boat speed
verify the accuracy of waypoints on paper charts when passage planning. When the proposed course on the chart doesn't match the same course on the GPS, it's time to re-check my figures.

However, I like having my paper charts handy unless I REALLY know the area. This feeling is shared by one of my sailing buddies who used to design software for these systems. He reminded me that while the folks who design the software are some of the finest people he knows, they:


have to work to tight deadlines; and
don't necessarily know anything about boats.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

sailjunkie said:


> My advanced navigation instructor encouraged us to utilize every tool at our disposal. GPS is a valuable tool to help me:


I got rid of the last paper chart a few weeks ago. It had been sitting growing mold for 3 years. Like every other paper chart it had never been used during my whole circumnavigation.

It ships and aircraft don't have them why does your instructor think you do?

Its fine and good to have a quick lesson on them incase you are transported back in a time machine, but really they are as dead as the Dodo bird.

That example above with the problem with the Navonics not showing the island at one zoom level shows that all routes should be checked at the closest zoom level, even if its 3,000nms! and at all zoom levels. Then when sailing it keep checking!

Its good to have more than one version of electronic charts. I have 3. Garmin, C-Map and CM-93. Also Google Earth is excellent, learn how to cache the downloaded images. And soon I will have Navonics on iPad.

By the way, there was a paper chart for sale the other day at a swap meet. Repriint data dated 1860's. Damn useless! 

All the best 

Mark


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> It ships and aircraft don't have them why does your instructor think you do?
> 
> Mark


Mark

Sailjunkie is a Canadian. We are required to have paper charts and other publications unless

1) We have an ECDIS and are trained in its use, or
2) We on a vessel of less than 100 tons and have sufficient local knowledge



> Am I required by law to carry CHS charts? What are the Charts and Nautical Publications Regulations of the Canada Shipping Act?
> Most vessels of any kind in Canada have an obligation to carry and use official charts and publications and to keep them up to date. The chart carriage requirements are listed in the Charts and Nautical Publications Regulations, 1995 of the Canada Shipping Act.
> 
> CHS paper charts meet the requirements of the chart carriage regulations. CHS digital charts meet the requirements of the chart carriage regulations under certain circumstances. CHS Electronic Navigational Charts (ENCs) meet the requirements provided they are used with an Electronic Chart Display and Information System (ECDIS). CHS raster charts meet the requirements only if paper charts are carried and used as a backup.
> ...


CHS - Frequently Asked Questions - General

I expect his instructor is aware of this requirement.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> I got rid of the last paper chart a few weeks ago. It had been sitting growing mold for 3 years. Like every other paper chart it had never been used during my whole circumnavigation.
> 
> It ships and aircraft don't have them why does your instructor think you do?


This is sure to start an interesting debate. In all my year of sailing (lol) I have been told by everyone to ALWAYS have paper charts on board as backup. You're the first one to advise ditching the paper.

I love using the electronics, even on my relatively simple boat. I daysail in a river, which requires a lot of tacking, and I determine tacking points based on upcoming depth shown on the chartplotter. If I use the depthfinder, it will be too late and I'll run aground. (I've confirmed that the charted depths in my area are very accurate.)

However, I am taking an old fashioned Nav course (ASA 105) to be sure I have adequate skills with my backup method.

As for why airplanes don't need paper charts, if they have a total electrical failure, charts may be the least of their worries. If a sailboat has a total electrical failure, that's when the fun begins. :laugher

But you're more far more experienced than I am, so I guess you know better.


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## sailjunkie (Nov 4, 2009)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Its good to have more than one version of electronic charts. I have 3. Garmin, C-Map and CM-93. Also Google Earth is excellent, learn how to cache the downloaded images. And soon I will have Navonics on iPad.
> 
> By the way, there was a paper chart for sale the other day at a swap meet. Repriint data dated 1860's. Damn useless!
> 
> ...


Whatever floats your boat, my friend.  As for me, I'll keep praising Garmin while hanging on to the paper charts. Paper charts and a hand bearing compass are handy tools to have when the batteries crap out.

JD is correct when he says that Canadian sailors must either have appropriate paper charts for the area, or be able to demonstrate extensive local knowledge.

Regardless of our different preferences, I'm sure that we can both agree with many of the other posters who argue that, whether you are using electronics or paper, it is important to raise one's head and look around.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

jackdale said:


> Mark
> 
> Sailjunkie is a Canadian. We are required to have paper charts and other publications unless
> 
> 1) We have an ECDIS and are trained in its use, or


An ECDIS is a chartplotter. If you need to be trained to use it you get a license to prove you've done the training?

Re: the Canadian bit: Move!  Its warmer down here!  and the beer's cold :laugher

Mark


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> An ECDIS is a chartplotter. If you need to be trained to use it you get a license to prove you've done the training?
> 
> Re: the Canadian bit: Move!  Its warmer down here!  and the beer's cold :laugher
> 
> Mark


A chartplotter is not an ECDIS. It is an ECS.

A visual - this is an ECDIS












> An Electronic Chart Display and Information System (ECDIS) is a computer-based navigation information system that complies with International Maritime Organization (IMO) regulations and can be used as an alternative to paper nautical charts. IMO refers to similar systems not meeting the regulations as Electronic Chart Systems (ECS).


Yes you get trained and certified.

ECDIS Regulations and Publications at ECDISregs.com


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Governments take a long time to repeal laws that are usless/ineffective or just bypassed by inovation.


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## bobwebster (Jan 25, 2005)

Does the iPad GPS work when there is no cell service?


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

bobwebster said:


> Does the iPad GPS work when there is no cell service?


It should.


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## dreuge (Sep 18, 2009)

bobwebster said:


> Does the iPad GPS work when there is no cell service?


One needs the 3G ipad model in order to get an ipad with a GPS. Yes, it works without having a 3G service plan.

I have been using mine sailing since last May (Navitonics app) without 3G service. Once when the weather fouled, I use 1-gal zip-lock bag for water proofing; it worked well and the touch screen still works through the plastic. But generally, if it is raining, I'll keep it down below.

I have also used it on land. Using MotionX GPS HD, one can download and store maps of an area(also download NOAA raster maps). I downloaded maps for Beijing China before getting there. I stayed in downtown Beijing and walked all around the city with my ipad in my backpack. It was so cool, without it I would have been lost....

Dreuge


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## floatsome (Jul 5, 2008)

RhythmDoctor said:


> This is sure to start an interesting debate. In all my year of sailing (lol) I have been told by everyone to ALWAYS have paper charts on board as backup. You're the first one to advise ditching the paper.



First rule of navigation: know your position at all times.
Second rule: you can't never know enough about the sea.
Principle of maritime law (I'm not a lawyer, so this is just my own interpretation of the laws, regulations, standards and tradition): Carry a completely independent backup navigation system for navigation in the event of failure in the primary, and one that is capable of providing appropriately precise/accurate positioning in an appropriate time frame after failure of the primary. 
Big ships have the money and gear to support two completely independent ECDIS, including independent power supplies. Bear in mind that if the GPS satellite system goes down, then having a secondary based on GPS is not completely independent.
Most recreational boats cannot support ECDIS, so we use ECS (no international standard), typically GPS receiver/chartplotters in proprietary form or on laptops. 
Most recreational boats cannot practically provide a completely independent ECS backup system.
The only practical completely independent backup system for our boats is paper chart with manual positioning skills and knowledge. ECS using unofficial electronic charts does not meet what I think is the requirement for having sufficient information on board, but paper charts issued by a national hydrographic authority meet that standard. So paper charts cover both bases.
So that's the logic I use in justifying carrying and using paper charts in addition to my primary (GPS) system. I think (1) it makes me legal in the event of a misadventure and (2) it is good seamanship.

The law seems to allow for skipping paper charts when the navigator has sufficient local knowledge, but the question there is where to draw the line about "sufficient". I prefer to err on the side of maybe I don't know the precise location of every shoal bottom and marker, even in my home waters.

By the way, I am quite impressed with the iPad as a navigation adjunct.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"The law seems to allow for skipping paper charts when"
Speaking strictly for the US, the law effectively puts no navigational burdens on unlicensed recreational boat owners, i.e. _yachtsmen_. So you are correct, it allows for skipping paper charts, electronic charts, sextants, road maps and common sense alike.
Laws 'requiring' charts and navigational equipment usually tend to apply to commercial and licensed operators, AFAIK not just in the US.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

floatsome said:


> (2) it is good seamanship.
> 
> .


In your opinion.

In mine its not good seamanship to use paper charts.

Many younger sailors are just not of the generation that preferes paper to something on-screen. Its more difficult for them to go learn an antiquated system.

A backup doesn't need to be paper charts It can easily be a second chart plotter, a 3rd, whatever. My boat has 3 plotters (one at the help, one on the PC and a handheld) and 3 GPS units (2 in the plotters one in a Sat Phone) on 3 power systems (boats batteries and 2 on AA batteries.)

If the GPS satellites fall out of the sky which hasnt happened nor will it, then the nav is still be the same method as those who hanker for paper charts. By DR.

Just to throw an interesting sideline comment about the changing of time - in Australia the largest booksellers have just gone broke! It seems people are beginning to read off Kindle et al in preference to overpriced paper book. (As paper charts are also overpriced) Hundreds lose jobs as A&R, Borders stores close

Environmentally its better too: Save a book, save a tree. Save buying a paper chart and you save a tree and maybe your life.

Electronic charts are vastly superior in every way including usability and accuracy. And that to me adds up to better seamanship


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> In your opinion.
> 
> In mine its not good seamanship to use paper charts.
> 
> ...


What if a lightning strike knocks out all your electronics?


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

RhythmDoctor said:


> What if a lightning strike knocks out all your electronics?


AA batteries?

3 plotters? ONly one attached to the boats power?

Get serious!

Better get plastic keelbolts too. 

Obviously, all electrics should be turned off in an electric storm. I turn the lot off except for the autopilot.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> AA batteries?
> 
> 3 plotters? ONly one attached to the boats power?
> 
> ...


I've never been struck by lightning, but many others here have, so hopefully they'll have something to say. But from what I've read, the EMP from a lightning strike will almost certainly knock out any and all electronics that are not stored inside a Faraday cage. They don't have to be running or plugged in to get wiped out.

Lots of luck navigating with your AA batteries.

If you've circumnavigated you've got a LOT more experience than I do, so I shouldn't ridicule you. But I think there are other more experienced sailors here who would say that relying 100% on electronics with no paper backup is reckless.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I can live with someone using a backup non-ship based electronic device that has charts installed on it, so that you have something to reference if you lose GPS navigation. Essentially, you have the paper chart and it's redundant from the ships systems, its just in electronic form. 

However, we live in such a bubble that it seem inconceivable to most that the GPS satellites could be turned off or scrambled, but that is entirely possible at any time. I would not expect that any GPS devise was my backup. In some form, you need a chart.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

RhythmDoctor said:


> If you've circumnavigated you've got a LOT more experience than I do, so I shouldn't ridicule you. But I think there are other more experienced sailors here who would say that relying 100% on electronics with no paper backup is reckless.


Well NONE of the paper chart people keep a back-up of their paper charts.
Remember Slocumbs goat ate his Caribbean chart! He shoulda had a spare? No wonder no one sails with goats anymore! 

More seriously, its not reckless. Its foolish to think one can circumnavigate using paper charts. Can I remind you of the cost of charts for a circumnavigation? About $15,000.

Of all the people I met during our circumnavigation (2008 to 2010 and continuting in the Caribbean in 2011) how many do you think relied on paper charts?
Consider this is before iPad and the $800 GPS and ECN packages....

How many folks actually 'doing it' were relying on paper?

N o n e.

OK next quiz q for you. Of all those I met who have paper charts stuffed somewhere on their boat, how many EVER used any paper chart what-so-ever after, say the first 6 months?

None.

How many lost electronics in electrical storms? A couple. 3 or 4 I know of. And second hand stories i.e. friend of a friend... lots.

But none suffered a navigational difficulty because of it.

Either they were struck in an anchorage or marina or the PC / handheld /fiixed chartplotter etc was not effected. (Remember you can put a PC or handheld GPS whatever in the oven as a Faraday Chamber - but I just unplug them and seperate them. No use storing the PC on top of the battery bank!

[Lets remember than ANY passage you will have your route barings, distances, waypoint lats&longs written down in any case as you need to transfere from one system to another. Before setting out you should know where you are going notwistanding you use paper or ecn. If your goat eats a paper chart you can wait at your landfall till a ship goes into the harbour. Same if Starwars errupts.  ]

How many vessels sank while we circumnavigated that I met and actually knew the cruisers? 3!
None was a failure of navigation: 1 decided cyclones were not as powerful as Hurricanes and lost his boat by being a wanker. 1 sank in calm weather (thru-hull connections?) and 1 hit a reef when he was following another boat in through a channel instead of navigating himself (it was a tricky chanel - I would have skipped it)

How many cruises have been terminated because of death or serious ill health striking? .... ummm hell.... 10? about 10. (A guy just died a few days ago I didn't know, but know of.) [Here I am talking about heart attacks, cancer etc not misadventure]

Number of cruises terminated by solo sailors being murdered? I don't know them, but 3 at least. 2 in the Panama/Columbia region this year and one in the Pacific last year.

Lastly: How many relationships have been destroyed or, at least, didn't survive the long trip round the world? MANY MANY MANY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My point is: Instead of worrying about the Giant Cane Toad eating GPS sattelites and Thor using your plotters as sex toys, its better to get serious about the things that in reality will affect your boat, whether you are going across the bay for a weekend, across an ocean, or doing a circumnavigation.

Inventions like Chartplotters have already changed the way seamanly methods of navigation are done. There is no going back.

The newest inventions like iPad have slashed the price of ecn navigation to give the best, most seamanlike nav abilities to the most cash-strapped sailors.

Raymarine et al spelled the doom of Paper.
iPad spells the doom of $5,000 plotters. Damn, it could spell the doom of Raymarine, Garmin and all their cronies!

Cruising is NOT, imho, about old technology. Its using the best, newest stuff to keep us safe at sea and enjoying long passages while the ***** scrubs the galley below.  Dunno why I'm single 

Mark


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I just received an email that my Ipad will arrive on Wed. Cool.

I know I will want one of the nav/chart apps, but will have to figure out which. It's really just a backup, so I don't necessarily need every bell and whistle or vector charts. But it would be nice if it integrated with SeaTalk on my HSB2 RL80C Raymarine system. Any chance that any will? Or is the Ipad itself the problem?

I've looked up all the anchor alarm programs and am disappointed to learn that none allow for offsetting the anchor after it is set. No way I will be playing with the Ipad during anchoring, so one would want to "place" the anchor in front of the boat, so you could swing around it. Otherwise, the sensitivity has to be more than twice your rode length so that it doesn't just go off if you clock around. That could easily be 200 feet. Little point to an alarm that doesn't sound for 200ft, IMHO.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> I just received an email that my Ipad will arrive on Wed. Cool. .


Can you write us a report on how it goes?

I have to save up for another month or 2 

Mark


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Can you write us a report on how it goes?
> 
> I have to save up for another month or 2
> 
> Mark


Sure. But I won't be on the water with it for another 6 weeks. If I have any revelations while installing apps, I will share earlier.


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## dougshipl (Jan 22, 2007)

I use it as a backup with the $50 Navionic app. in blue water coastal cruising. Would never consider it as a primary.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

dougshipl said:


> Would never consider it as a primary.


Cancel any air tickets then!

FAA OKs iPad for Pilots' Charts | Autopia | Wired.com



> The Federal Aviation Administration is allowing charter company Executive Jet Management to use Apple's tablet as an approved alternative to paper charts. The authorization follows three months of rigorous testing and evaluation of the iPad and Mobile TC, a map app developed by aviation chartmaker Jeppesen.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

So far, I love this thing!! Ipad2 arrived last Friday. Never had one before.

I got the 3G version with GPS and have used an auto navigator app and was spot on. If it can properly identify 30 foot wide roads, it seems like waterways will be a snap. I've also brought up the gps from inside the 5th floor of a 6 floor building and it identified precisely where I was on the property, let alone getting the right address. Pretty cool.

I bought Navmatics Charts & Tides, because I wanted the offline ActiveCaptain database to cruise Maine this summer. Looks like it will be a great backup chart tool, but not a very sophisticated navigation routing app. That's okay for me, since I do routing with the onboard chartplotter anyway.

Having both wi-fi and 3G access to the internet has also been impressive. I havne't been without connection yet, although, I'm sure I will find some dead spots. 

Setting up common website as there own icons is very convenient. I've already set up SailFlow, Passagemaker and, of course, Sailnet.

I won't bore this forum with the aircraft tool that I bought, which is by far more powerful that anything actually available for installation in any aircraft.

Two thumbs up so far.


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## acunningham (Nov 25, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> If it can properly identify 30 foot wide roads, it seems like waterways will be a snap.


Be aware that GPS software for road navigation will often move your location to the nearest road without telling you if the GPS signal indicates that you're off-road but near a road. It may therefore be giving a false sense of accuracy that cannot be relied upon for marine use.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

acunningham said:


> Be aware that GPS software for road navigation will often move your location to the nearest road without telling you if the GPS signal indicates that you're off-road but near a road. It may therefore be giving a false sense of accuracy that cannot be relied upon for marine use.


Not sure I follow your point. I had voice prompting turned on and it was saying "turn now" at precisely the right spot. The dot that shows my home is practically in the right room, right now.

Honestly, if marine accuracy is anything under several hundred yards, it's about all I would ever care about. Still need to use your eyes on the water.


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## acunningham (Nov 25, 2010)

Let's say you're on a road at exactly 0°N, 0°E (in the Atlantic, I know, but let's pretend). Due to GPS errors, the GPS receiver is 1/10 of a nautical mile out, and is reporting 0°0'6"N, 0°E to the road navigation software. The road navigation software looks in it's database of roads and sees that there is no road at 0°0'6"N, 0°E, and that the closest road is at 0°N, 0°E. Since it's road navigation software, it knows that you're probably on a road, so silently moves the location icon to 0°N, 0°E because that's it's best guess of where you are. You have no way of knowing that the GPS signal was incorrect by 1/10 of a nautical mile. For road use, this isn't a problem because you can use your eyes to stay on the road.

Now translate that to marine use. 1/10 of a nautical mile error is quite a large one for GPS, and not common, but can happen. It can also be enough to put you aground beside the channel when the GPS is reporting you're in the middle of the channel. Just like being on the road, this isn't a problem if you can use your eyes to remain in the channel, but becomes dangerous if you're relying on the GPS for this at night or in fog.

To further confuse the issue, GPS errors are much less than their maximum possible values for most of the time. Therefore you cannot look at the GPS and say "it's accurate right now therefore it will be accurate when I most need it".

GPS units designed specifically for marine use will have extra facilities to monitor the health of the GPS signal and warn you if the accuracy is degraded. This is known as RAIM integrity monitoring in aviation (it may be called something else for marine use). You cannot rely on an Ipad having these. I would therefore suggest that the Ipad is nice to have as a backup navigation system and for visualizing your journey on Google Earth, recording logs, etc, but should never be relied upon for safety-critical navigation in tight channels, at night, or in fog.

Disclaimer: I'm a pretty inexperienced sailor, so take the marine part of this post with a grain of salt. I am, however, an experienced pilot and am qualified for GPS and WAAS instrument approaches, so am pretty familiar with use of GPS in safety critical environments.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Acunningham, being rated to fly anything from a Stearman to a corporate jet, I understand RAIM. I don't think that is the point. I'm not trying to use the IPad to place the boat in it's slip with zero/zero conditions. I often put the wheels on the runway just seconds after I see it for the first time. In the cockpit, the IPad will be a charting tool, not navigation device.

On the boat, I will take 1/10th of a mile all day long. All I need to know is that I'm in the vicinity of a nav aid and I'm good. I will use radar in the fog.

That said, the iPad simple built in gps program is just showing my location on a map right now. I've zoomed as close as possible and the dot is essentially on the location of the room I am in. And, I'm using it indoors!

Can't be using the road logic at the moment, I'm not using the road navigator.


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## acunningham (Nov 25, 2010)

As long as you're comfortable with that level of accuracy not being reliable, then it sounds like you're good to go!


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Minne-
It sounds like you are up on nav instruments, but just be aware that the mass market stuff often plays tricks. Some of the auto routing software will snap you onto the nearest road--since you are in a car you must be on a road, right? There's all sorts of stuff going on that the makers don't want to bother the public about, and how that could affect marine users, I'd be afraid to guess.

I did have a long talk with a Garmin tech last week, after someone questioned how any of their units (marine or road) ran odometer distance. If you sail on a glass flat lake for a 1000 miles, and then sailback in 12' seas riding up and down on the sinussoidal(?) surface? You'll still get 1000 miles inthe log either way, because the Garmin (somewhat logically) only computes distance as a-to-b without the 3d component.
Drive from DC to Denver and gain a mile in altitude...and that mile won't show up on your log either. Again, 2d point to 2d ppoint UNLESS your unit is working from topo maps, in which case apparently it can either track altittude changes, or lump-sum them. He wasn't sure, but he know using a topo and a 3d basemap could change things.

If you gain 5 miles in a Lear...does your GPS show you've gained five miles? Or does it segregate that as altitude data, not trip length?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Altitude is not considered in aviation gps distance. Angular distance to a point is measured with older DME equipment.

I understand that gps data could go haywire. I've had it fry on me in the clouds. Moving at 8 knots in two dimensional space is not a problem. Making landfall in the right harbor is about all one needs. The rest is visual.


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## dreuge (Sep 18, 2009)

Hi,

I came across the iMux made by Brookhouse Electronics. Their info page show an iPad using iNavX communicating directly to NMEA devices with out the need for a PC. It's a bit pricey at $300, but if one want to use a non-3G iPad, then getting NMEA gps info make the non-3G run iNavX like a 3g iPad.

Has anyone used or heard of this device?

iMux - The Brookhouse NMEA 0183 Wifi multiplexer

BTW, I have been using my 3g iPad with the Navionics app for over a year now. It has performed beyond expectations providing almost too much comfort and ease of navigation. I stopped using my pc nav computer though I keep it stuffed away as a back up device.

I have found a few caveats like the iPad automatically shutting down if it gets too hot. This means for me keeping it out of the direct FL sunlight. Another concern is foul weather. I found using a heavy duty zip-lock bag works nicely allowing one still to have touch pad control, but to be honest during bad weather I try to keep the iPad as much as possible down below.

Dreuge
S/V Johanna Rose


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

dreuge said:


> .... Another concern is foul weather. I found using a heavy duty zip-lock bag works nicely allowing one still to have touch pad control, but to be honest during bad weather I try to keep the iPad as much as possible down below.


For about $20, they do make waterproof bags for the Ipad. I will get one, but haven't yet, so I can't give first hand experience. They essentially look like a flat dry bag.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

A new observation. On an aviation app, Fore flight, there is a GPS accuracy indicator. When still, it usually reads 5 meters. 10 meters is most common in motion of any kind, occasionally 30 meters. I only intend to use the app for charting and flight briefing, not nav, but found the indicator interesting.

If correct, that's pretty accurate for marine use, even at 30 meters.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

On train to NYC. 3G connect to Internet is great! This will be great for float planning.

Brought up plain map, not automobile nav, and watched my GPS position dot follow the tracks precicely. if there was 5 feet of error, it would be hard to tell.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I've seen a buddy's Ipad in the aircraft cockpit before, but his did not have the integrated GPS receiver. While my use is essentially for charting, I couldn't help but compare gps functions to the installed panel mounted unit in the airplane. 

I do have the integrated GPS on the Ipad2. No external antenna, working in the cockpit seat........... Spot on.


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## SeaFever2000 (Sep 10, 2008)

Question for all the people who use their iPad for navigation on their boat. Do you use it in the cockpit? Can you see the display in bright sunlight?

I don't have an iPad but have used my DroidX with EarthNC App. The App works great. Pretty cool for a free App. But it is difficult to see the screen clearly in bright sunlight. Since we day-sail in SF Bay, it is invariably sunny when we sail...


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I was sitting on shore last weekend, watching my daughter's regatta, and using the Ipad on 3G. That is awesome. However, the sun was directly behind me and shining straight into the Ipad. That was hard to read. However, with a small adjustment to put me between the sun and the Ipad, it worked fine. It seems to be okay, unless you just can't interfere with the most direct sunlight. I am told them make some appliques to help with this.


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## sealover (Jun 27, 2009)

I have both a droid (the old moto droid) and an iPad 2. I notice glare much less on the droid. Possibly because it's always hand-held, and I have an anti-scratch screen cover that might help a bit. And the droid is smaller, obviously. Thanks for the free charts app heads up. I am getting it now!


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

New update.

I bought an app called AnchorWatch. It was the only one I could find that allows you to place the anchor spot in front of you, assuming you don't hit the button to lock the location immediately as you drop it. 

I've played with it at home again and there is something worth noting. I'm sitting in my living room and the gps closely identifies my location on a google map as the boat location. I then place the anchor about 100 feet in front of me (there is a compass rose to do so), which put it in my driveway. I can then expand or contract the warning circle around the anchor, not the boat, so that when the boat swings around the anchor, the warning remains constant.

As I sit in my chair and watch, the "boat" (Ipad gps locator) keeps moving around on a scale I would estimate to be about 10 to 20 feet. No doubt that is essentially the gps error, which would also have to accommodated in the warning circle. ie, you would want the circle at least 50, maybe 100 feet outside where it thinks you are, so you do not get false warnings. 

To test it, I have set the edge of the warning circle at my exact location, walked across the house and the warning went off as published. 

Now this next part is cool. You can select from any or all of these warnings: pop up notification, a audible siren or an email. Assuming you are in cell coverage and have a smart phone, you could leave your boat to go ashore and it would send you an email if she started to drag. I haven't gotten it to work yet, as I don't know the right email settings, but that sounded very neat.

I think the app was 2 bucks.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Minnewaska-
Conventional GPS accuracy is usually specified as "within ten meters" (that's plus or minus 10 meters, total variation 20 meters) 95% of the time. The remaining 5% of the time, the error will be somwhat larger.
For WAAS-augmented GPS that drops to 3 meters.

So depending on what kind of GPS you have, the odds are that you can expect to see ten meters of shift in the position even while it is firmly planted in your couch. Yes, they often do better, but that's what the folks who run the system say to expect from it.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> the "boat" (Ipad gps locator) keeps moving around on a scale I would estimate to be about 10 to 20 feet. No doubt that is essentially the gps error, which would also have to accommodated in the warning circle. ie, you would want the circle at least 50, maybe 100 feet outside where it thinks you are, so you do not get false warnings.
> .


ON my Opencpn on the boat laptop I use 2 circles one 30 meters and one 50 meters. It often drifts out of the 30m because the boat moves a bit and the error is 6 m approx.

Also try to see if you can put in a negative distance.

If that works then it can be helpful to make a circle where you get an alarm if you go INTO the circle. i.e. good if you want to stop hitting a beach etc. 

iPad sounds great and I will get one soon


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## michaelkent (Apr 20, 2011)

I think the iPad would work very well for a GPS device, just as long as you have the 3G coverage plan for it, and a case. I would recommend a Garmin boating unit, though they are a bit more expensive.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Still using the internal GPS on the Ipad2. The warning would have to be extended to accommodate, but the program will only sound the alarm if it finds you outside for 3 consecutive cycles. I'm sure that is to account for the random error and I have no idea at this point, how often the cycles are taken. If the blip is a cycle, they are about every 2 seconds and the "boat" does move a bit, even on the couch. 

Still seems pretty useful if you accommodate the error.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

hellosailor said:


> Minnewaska-
> Conventional GPS accuracy is usually specified as "within ten meters" (that's plus or minus 10 meters, total variation 20 meters) 95% of the time. The remaining 5% of the time, the error will be somwhat larger.
> For WAAS-augmented GPS that drops to 3 meters.


yeah.

And when I am in a bit of a blow I put out a lot of chain - 50 meters, 60 meters whatever I can put out. So in 5 meters of water the boat rides round a lot (a Beneteau). Say 45 meters in each direction, plus +-10 meters error (whatever) and the circles get pretty big!

The track begins to show a definite pattern and that can really help. When you drag that track pattern changes so dramatically you know its not an error!

Mark


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## padean (Jul 5, 2001)

*Recent IPAD navigation test*

Recently went to the BVI's and needed to use the IPAD with Navtech's chart program for navigation from the cockpit since the Standard Horizon unit on the charter boat was "borrowed" by the owner.

Very surprised at how well it worked. I do NOT have the 3G IPAD, and thought it may be difficult getting a location, but the boat was very accurately tracked crossing the channels between islands with no interruption in tracking or location! I have heard different explanations on why the location and tracking can be so accurate that far from a WiFi signal (couldn't even pick up a fraction of a bar on the laptop), and someone said it actually triangulates off cell towers, but I don't know.

All I know was that without WiFi it worked extremely well. It was a very nice addition to visual navigation. Plotted us to within 5' of our location off a submerged rock at the Baths, and never lost the location.

I will feel much more comfortable using this as a backup chart/GPS device to my regular plotter now. I will be interested to see how well it works in the middle of Lake Huron this summer.

And yes, I realize you could get a hand-helf GPS unit for much cheaper, and a full GPS plotter for not much more, but those can't carry a library of books (including the Marine Electronics Bible that came in handy at one point on the charter), and can't play music on the cruise.....


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I do have the 3G model and purchased the lowest plan they had available. I avoid downloading anything while on 3G, but have spent a couple of hours on this site, hours getting email, etc. I haven't even scratched the surface of my available bandwidth. It's completely worth it. Plus, see the note above about the anchor alarm being able to send you an email. Wow.

My kids and their cousins keep making me download what sound like stupid games when we are together. I now find myself playing them when they aren't around. Maybe it make you young again too.........


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> the anchor alarm being able to send you an email. Wow.


So if you left the iPad on the boat turned on.
And then went to the bar with your iPhone.
And your boat started to drag....
Your iPhone in the bar would ring and tell you: "Hey, Stupid! The boats dragging!"

?

Is that so?


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## brak (Jan 5, 2007)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> So if you left the iPad on the boat turned on.
> And then went to the bar with your iPhone.
> And your boat started to drag....
> Your iPhone in the bar would ring and tell you: "Hey, Stupid! The boats dragging!"


Either that or someone stole your iPad


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"Your iPhone in the bar would ring and tell you: "
I had that happen once, almost. Had dropped the owner ashore to catch a cab and was heding back to the dink when someone said "Isn't that boat dragging?" and we HAD secured the anchor very well, we thought. Raced back to boat to perform Chinese Fire Drill and get the boat secured again.
Can't trust any anchor you can't actually SEE. Can't rely on email or cellcos much more than that, either.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> .....Your iPhone in the bar would ring and tell you: "Hey, Stupid! The boats dragging!" Is that so?


That's what it says it can do. You have to set up your from and to email addresses. Email, not a phone call, but still pretty good.

It can also be set up to email your coordinates every few minutes so that someone can track your location at home. You would need to be within cell coverage for that to work.

As mentioned, it may also suggest your Ipad is departing the boat.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

By the sounds of the news today about the IPADS and I Phones that BIG BROTHER (The Apple Empire) has been tracking you all along....and you thought you were tracking your boat.

Did they disclose that they had installed tracking hardware on your IPAD?

This appears to more than the run of the mill GPS program to track where your phone is on,

Dave


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I thought I read that your Ipad keeps a database that will synch with your iTunes software on your desktop, but Apple does not have access to it.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

From a CNetophile



> On it's face and in isolation this is not exactly a huge deal. The location data is not being sent anywhere as far as we know. It resides on your iPad or iPhone (3G models) and on your computer where you sync to iTunes. Well, that's assuming you don't sync to someone else's computer, of course. In that case, they might have your location data available to view and play with.
> 
> And really, that's why this could be a big deal, on some level.
> 
> ...


Why the big secret? More to come from Apple Marketing Spin I am sure. Hohws it feel with Big Brother watching you.


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## donahum (Aug 5, 2000)

There are now two Apple approved GPS modules for the Itouch and IPAD. One is the Dual XGPS150, it connects to the IPAD via bluetooth and can use any of the Nav apps in the App Store. I just ordered one, from what I have seen on other baords it works great and is a great deal for $99.00 at Amazon

*
*


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## NICHOLSON58 (Feb 22, 2009)

have you considered a hand held like a Garmen Dakota?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I took my iPad along my 2 week New England cruise. It came in handy on day 2. As I was navigating out of Seal Bay in Maine (zero nav aids, but well charted), my chart plotter fluxgate went screwy. Had us tracking in the right direction, but the boat pointed elsewhere. It made the picture very disorienting. Ran down below, put the iPad in it's waterproof case and fore up Charts and Tides. Took us right out and actually had better harbor detail than my plotter. I came to use it routinely when in harbor for the rest of the trip. The offline, Active Captain database, was also invaluable for phone numbers and actual reviews of anchorages to know what to look for. 

Finally, the anchor alarm I purchased, Anchor Watch, did not fully work when I tested it at home. However a patch came through while we were on the trip and fixed the bugs. It would actually send an email msg to my phone if the anchor dragged. Tested by walking it down the street, of course. That gave great peace of mind when we had cell coverage and would go ashore It would also run in the background at night, so it burned very little battery power, but would fire up a siren if you broke from the mooring or dragged while sleeping. Also tested on land, never actually dragged.

I say.... iPad..... Don't leave home without it.


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