# Flare-guns and other alternatives (excluding guns) as weapons



## BlueSovereign

I recall some time ago (2 yrs maybe) there was a thread on some sailing forum (on Cruiser, SSCA, or this one ... my first guess is on this one) but I don't recall which one. It was a lengthy discussion on weapon options other than guns, which included as I recall how to use flare guns, camelflouging shot gun shells for this purpose, etc 

In light of the latest tragedy in Thailand, and one who currently lives in NZ so am well aware of Peter Blake being dead likely because he carried a gun (pls no debate on that), this latest tragedy reminded me of that old thread.

I'm interested in learning more about the Flare Gun option, or for that matter other options cruisers have used (other than guns and a machete). If anyone knows of the thread I am referring to, I would appreciate being able to access it. I'm also intersted in learning about other alternatives cruisers have had on board (again other than guns).

Again, and at the risk of repeating myself, I'm NOT AT ALL interested in starting another "guns-no guns" debate.

Thanks in advance.


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## chall03

There is as you may be aware a healthy guns vs no guns debate going on in the 'to be armed when cruising' thread anyway....

To start anew another thread looking at good alternatives is a great idea. 

I have already presented some options over there( Ones I have heard of and researched, I have no first hand experience on this) , so apologies for some repeat posting but I figure that there will be some who may wish not to go through that thread and all it's sordid controversy and heated discussion.


1) As has been suggested Buddy boating. Avoid VHF chatter however that may give away location and activity. Potential 'Pirates' may be monitoring. Keep on the HF.

2) Toy Guns. Plastic AK47's from Toys R Us look pretty convincing from a distance. The apporaching slightly hesitant would-be pirate may be fooled enough to not take the risk.

3)Piracy at night is common. Keep good watches, dim Nav lights and avoid any unidentified vessels in suspect areas. Have a very bright spotlight handy, directed in the eyes of an approaching vessel it can make boarding or aiming very difficult. Followed by a shot from the flare gun it might have some results.

4)Piracy or theft at anchor is probably most common. Remember that even a modest yacht to alot of people in this world screams of oppulence. Keep cash and jewellery out of sight when visiting villages, place noisy pans, or marbles etc on deck as your early warning system of your vessel being boarded. Tapes of barking dogs have been used by cruisers as well.

5)Loud alarms/sirens??

I guess the best thing to do is to have a plan of some kind. Piracy is very uncommon. Attacks are often by poor fisherman, not modern day Blackbeard types, so deterrants can be very effective. The professional Pirate is generally not interested in your average cruising yacht, Larger cargo vessels are their focus.


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## Bilgewater

I believe *"Bear Bangers"* can only be purchased in Canada at any tackle or sporting goods store. They could be available elsewhere but I'm not sure, in any case I'm sure they can be purchased online. A lot of cruisers carry them up here and I'm sure they're quite effective against bears anyway. I don't have one myself but I'm considering it. They also shoot flares.

YouTube - bear banger
YouTube - Bearbanger in Action
Tru flare pocket launcher for flares and bear banger


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## erps

Someone in a thread a while back suggested that throwing/splashing a container of gasoline in/on the hostile's boat and then demonstrating a willingness to follow it up with a flare gun shot might persuade many offenders to pick another target.

A second suggestion I recall was towing a large length of floating line behind your boat while underway would make it more difficult for a hostile to come up behind you. 

I thought both those ideas were feasible.


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## TSOJOURNER

Ok..what is a bear banger?


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## Bilgewater

JacquelineHaden said:


> Ok..what is a bear banger?


This is an excerpt from the "Ursus International Website"

Bear bangers are readily available in Canada but harder to find in the US, is a "Pen-Type" bear banger launcher. As the name suggests, this item looks like a pen, and even has a convenient clip allowing it to be attached to a pocket, or pack sternum or shoulder strap. The body of the "pen" contains a spring and a firing-pin attached to a sliding trigger mechanism. With the trigger pulled back and slipped into the safety lock position, a "banger" cartridge can be screwed into the threaded end of the "pen". The unit is then carried in this way until it is either discharged or unloaded. The unit is fired by thumbing the "trigger" slider out of the safety lock position to the end of the opening it protrudes from, and then releasing it. The firing-pin strikes a .22 calibre blank round in the base of the cartridge, which propels the "banger" roughly 30 metres (35 yards), at which point it explodes. 
The bangers compare in loudness to the report of a firecracker shell fired from a 12-gauge shotgun, and they should not be underestimated because of the appearance of the firing unit! They are potentially very dangerous, and have the capacity to damage hearing and to cause burns if used improperly. There is a second trigger lock position that allows the banger launcher to be carried "cocked", but it is advisable that it should only be carried in this way when it is likely to be fired at any moment. If the unit has been cocked in this way, the trigger should be carefully released and guided back to the safety lock position as soon as possible. Never carry the launcher in the cocked position! 
The banger launcher should only be carried and used by people confident that they understand its capabilities and limitations. It should be used to scare off a threatening bear, and it is also suitable to be used with other threatening wildlife. However, it is of paramount importance to bear in mind that to drive an animal off, a banger device should be fired in front of an animal, i.e. between it an a hiker, and that misjudgment, resulting in the banger landing behind the animal, will drive it towards the firer! Any user, therefore, should know how to control the range of the bangers. This is achieved through recognising that holding the launcher at a 45 degree angle gives maximum trajectory, or range, and that steeper or lesser angles reduce range. By firing at a steeper angle, the banger will effectively be "lobbed" up, coming down closer to the firer than it would if fired at 45 degrees. Similarly, if fired at a lesser angle, the banger will hit the ground closer to the firer than if fired at 45 degrees. The risk in this is that hitting the ground could possibly cause the banger to break up and not explode, whereas "lobbed", it will either go off in the air or after hitting the ground at falling, rather than propelled, speed. 
The best advice is to test the launcher before use, even if doing so uses several cartridges. A user must understand the importance of preventing a banger from going off behind a bear, as that will push it towards the firer. In addition bangers should not be fired directly at bears (or other animals), because of their potential to cause injury; ideally, they should be placed in front of and slightly to the side of the animal. Bear banger launchers are available in many outdoor stores in Western Canada, costing between $14-16. Cartridges cost the same, for a box of 6. Some launchers are sold with a combination of banger and flare cartridges, giving the unit the dual purpose of being able to function as a distress flare launcher. However, this combination pack only provides 2 actual banger cartridges. If you buy this package, be sure to buy a separate box of bear banger cartridges as well, to allow you to practice with the launcher.


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## Cruisingdad

BlueSovereign said:


> I recall some time ago (2 yrs maybe) there was a thread on some sailing forum (on Cruiser, SSCA, or this one ... my first guess is on this one) but I don't recall which one. It was a lengthy discussion on weapon options other than guns, which included as I recall how to use flare guns, camelflouging shot gun shells for this purpose, etc
> 
> In light of the latest tragedy in Thailand, and one who currently lives in NZ so am well aware of Peter Blake being dead likely because he carried a gun (pls no debate on that), this latest tragedy reminded me of that old thread.
> 
> I'm interested in learning more about the Flare Gun option, or for that matter other options cruisers have used (other than guns and a machete). If anyone knows of the thread I am referring to, I would appreciate being able to access it. I'm also intersted in learning about other alternatives cruisers have had on board (again other than guns).
> 
> Again, and at the risk of repeating myself, I'm NOT AT ALL interested in starting another "guns-no guns" debate.
> 
> Thanks in advance.


The thread was on Sailnet. I am afraid that it too slipped into a gun debate. Such is the life of forums.

I say just take a flare gun, 12ga and 25 mm. Some country's will not even allow you to take those so carry a shark bat too. In all honestly, I think the incidences of actually needing a weapon are so very few and far between that it is not something I would be overly concerned (if you cruise in reasonable areas).

Brian


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## TSOJOURNER

Wow..the bear banger sounds dangerous to the operator...think I'll just stick with the simple things...flare gun, bear spray....and most of all prayer


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## Omatako

The problem with any type of pseudo defence is that once you have scare the bejeezus out of them, nothing stops them from coming around again and spraying your boat with gunfire from a distance.

I think I've suggested this somewhere before, can't remember.

If an obviously belligerent vessel comes alongside and a parachute flare is fired into it's accommodation, the resultant fire will keep them busy for a while. A second may be too much to stop and the vessel will burn to the waterline. Whichever you manage to achieve, they will be reluctant to come back because your flare has range enough to be dangerous from a distance. Of course a Molotov Cocktail tends to attracts the receiver's attention as well.

The next problem is at what point do you decide that the occupants of an approaching boat mean you harm? Some of the "naval" vessels we have seen as well as many a well-intentioned fisherman look like a bunch of cut-throats. And by the time they're on board, unless you're Jacky Chan, you're toast.


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## tdw

Cruisingdad said:


> The thread was on Sailnet. I am afraid that it too slipped into a gun debate. Such is the life of forums.
> 
> I say just take a flare gun, 12ga and 25 mm. Some country's will not even allow you to take those so carry a shark bat too. In all honestly, I think the incidences of actually needing a weapon are so very few and far between that it is not something I would be overly concerned (if you cruise in reasonable areas).
> 
> Brian


A SHARKBAT ?

One thing I wish to make perfectly clear is that a Wombat is of absolutely no use as an offensive weapon. (Unless loaded with chilli beans the night before. Then they can be very offensive indeed.)

What in heavens name is a Shark Bat ?


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## capttb

I don't usually carry weapons on the boat, but if you carry some diving gear seems like it would be reasonable for you to also have a Bang Stick. Available in calibers from .22 to .357 and shotgun shell sizes. Because it is a point blank weapon (as they get close enough to identify as sharks or gators) they are effective even when firing a blank. Firing them out of the water voids the warranty of course.
Bang Stick - Mahalo


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## tdw

btw......re the latest incident in Thailand have a read of this from Noonsite.

That there could be a possible resurgence of piracy in Thailand , which has been pretty safe in recent years, is a major worry but this does appear to be a one off.

quote "This we believe may be a one-off in special circumstances where the three Myanmar culprits escaped from a Thai fishing boat where they were been treated as slaves. How what they claimed was a raid to get food went so terribly wrong we will never know. They were all in their teens, the youngest being 15. Perhaps a return to the Caribbean tactic of locking yourself in at night when in remote anchorages should be considered."

Full transcript on Noonsite.

http://www.noonsite.com/Members/val/R2009-03-26-1/view


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## Bilgewater

I think everyone's opinion here is quite sound and I doubt that I would confront anyone. I would just let them take what they needed and hopefully they will just go away. I can always replace what they took, but my life can't be replaced but I would want a backup system as an option.



JacquelineHaden said:


> Wow..the bear banger sounds dangerous to the operator...think I'll just stick with the simple things...flare gun, bear spray....and most of all prayer


I don't think it's dangerous and it is quite simple. (but it could be...this is definately not an endorsement, I've never used one myself) I took the liberty of borrowing my buddies to show you and anyone else that's interested. It works just like a flare gun, you screw on the flare or banger and to fire it you need to pull back on the fireing pin. As you can see in the photos, it's about the size of a pen and it's made of aluminum and probably a steel firing pin. Even if it's kept as a backup system in the ditch bag (it also fires flares) which are $18.00CAD for 6 flares, that's a lot cheeper than 12gauge flares which are about $100CAD for 12. It wouldn't replace a flare gun but I think it's great for taking in the bush or jungle. I think a bigger threat is a charging animal.

In any case, Blue Sovereign was wondering about other flare gun options so I thought this would be helpful.



















Here it is taken appart (it's quite a simple mechanism)


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## LManess

I know alot of people are wondering what to do in a port, especially if you have decided to carry weapons but now have turned them in to customs. Are you safe at night?

These are only a few suggestions but, you know the biggest knife around is a machete. Lost of countries, you'll see 6 year olds walking down the street with one and nobody bats an eye. It's pretty long and if the other guy doesn't come aboard with a gun, at least you have a chance even before they get too close to do you harm.

Also if you happen to be a light sleeper the other alternative is a sling shot. A good one, that raps around the forearm. Load it with a good size pellets and it can make your opponent want to be someplace else. This actually worked for me one night, tied up to a crowded dock, when I was asleep in the v-berth and woke to the sound of my dinghy line tied to the bow being slipped. The guy had trouble starting the motor, and I yelled and screamed - you know, no one even popped out to see what was going on. But my trusty slingshot got him a couple of times, and that did the trick.

The other thing about going ashore, that is a nice confidence builder is this thing I constructed, really to ward off the dogs while I was going for my morning jog. I took the end of a stay that I had changed, cut off about a foot of the end and put it inside a heavy rope. It was sort of good for knot skills, because I put in a handle, and put the stay on the other end. It was like a weighted sap. The nice thing about it to, was the dogs were smart enough to know that I were swinging something really bad, and not one of them bothered me again, I didn't have to make contact or anything, it was nice not to have to worry after a couple of too close calls.

But for warding off pirates at sea, I don't have any good alternatives for you.

Linda


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## JRA1968

Like I said one another thread a couple days ago, compound bow with a maltave
Cocktail attached , and a few flare guns there are some older ones that are made as well as guns that pack a major punch. Cheers and strong winds


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## ftldiver

non gun alternatives? 

spear gun, bow arrow/crossbow.

anyone actually seen a flare gun as a weapon?


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## jackdale

ftldiver said:


> anyone actually seen a flare gun as a weapon?


I saw it in "Dead Calm", must be true.


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## hellosailor

girls, if you actually own a flare gun, then you should also own expired flares after three years or less. And you really need to practice using the flare gun, if for no other reason that to see how puny and ineffective _any _non-SOLAS flare is.

So don't ask what flares can do, take an expired one, fire it up into the sky to see how it works. It will usually work even if it is ten years expired. Now take one and fire it at something you want to "kill". Don't be surprised if it bounces off and doesn't impress anyone.

There must be video already up on utube.


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## jackdale

HS - can you make video?

We Canucks have no opportunity to fire expired flares. it is illegal.


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## Fiasco1

Bear spray has a limited range, Now a good wasp or bee spray that shoots a stream may be a better deterant one shot to the head or eyes and their done. Perfectly legal and very avaliable.


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## Minnewaska

jackdale said:


> HS - can you make video?
> 
> We Canucks have no opportunity to fire expired flares. it is illegal.


Pretty sure it is here too. I know someone who was arrested for it, however, they did so on the water. Maybe inland is different.


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## gulfcoastcruiser

If you can find an antique flare gun made of all metal these do not blow up when you fire a 12g round like the newer cheap plastic ones do.

I am not speaking from experience because I have never done this, but it does work.

It is however illegal, so do not get caught and if the need arises to use it would be wise to dispose of any evidence.


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## jackdale

Fiasco1 said:


> Bear spray has a limited range, Now a good wasp or bee spray that shoots a stream may be a better deterant one shot to the head or eyes and their done. Perfectly legal and very avaliable.


The use of wasp spray is questionable. snopes.com: Wasp Spray


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## erps




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## hellosailor

Minne-
In the US there is generallyno prohibition against firing flares, however, there will be many state and municipal regulations regarding "fireworks" and "firearms" that might come into play. Nevertheless, there's usually an opportunity to fire flares for testing, i.e., you go to the local fire department or cg station and tell them you want to test some pyros and they'll either walk you outside or tell you how. I've seen a number of cg stations that also keep a small metal dumpster with a slot in the side marked "epired pyrotechnics" for public disposal. (I'm sure they pay to ship them off as hazmat, sure. (G))

Jack-
"We Canucks have no opportunity to fire expired flares. it is illegal."
Well, that's why you folks were granted independence versus we threw old George and his minions out. A little revolution every couple of hundred years is a good thing.
I don't know your provincial or municipal regs, I know Canada has some strict regulatiosn concerning "firearms" in general, but again I'd suggest asking your CG or FD, and let them know you want to see how the pyros actually work. Here, the USCG and others routinely fire them off during demonstrations, i.e. the Safety At Sea seminars.
The first time I fired some off (during an inland fourth of july evening, when pyros of all sorts are incredibly common and ignored, legal or not, as long as you don't burn anything down) my reaction was gee, the fireworks you buy at the roadside stand are brighter and shoot higher. And cost less too.
The Olin 12g flare gun rounds are a cruel joke, best used to amuse any kids in the life raft. The dedicated hand-helds a tad better (unless I'm getting those mixed up again) but still nothing to write home about. There's been a lot of discussion elsewhere about using a "rescue laser" pointer, and sweeping the laser beam across whoever you want to attract. But after you've seen the typical Olins in action, you quickly realize their only purpose is to meet regulations or decorate inshore waters.
If you can't swim home, you want SOLAS pyros. And those are too damned expensive to waste on burglars. 
Machete: 10c in China, $20 in US, same product in both places. As long as you stow it in the galley, they'll usually accept it as "not a weapon".


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## Minnewaska

HS, he was arrested by local police, so it may have been local ordinance. However, there were ironically home fireworks being shot off the shore, which inspired him to pop an expired flare into the air. The folks shooting the fireworks were not arrested as far as I could tell. 

I think the marine police saw the flare, responded and then arrested him when there was no actual emergency. I will have to ask what the actual charge was.


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## hellosailor

Discharging a firearm without the presence of doughnuts?

Seriously though...if he shot it from a flare pistol, and someone reported seeing a "gun", that's all it would take. A firearms violation versus a fireworks launch. Flareguns are often tolerated, but technically fall under firearms regulations. 

In some places, especially Miami and Detroit, there are major problems with folks shooting real guns on the 4th and a good real zero tolerance policy. Dummies don't understand, the bullets always COME DOWN and hit something, often someone. So when the cops hear "gun"...can't blame 'em.


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## GeorgeB

Shooting a red emergency flare in the USA without prior permission or in an emergency is illegal. The white ones are for practice. “Flare gun” is a misnomer, the correct terminology is “flare launcher”. The USCG, ATF and homeland Security do not consider them to be a “fire arm” (but they do have plenty of rules and restrictions regarding pyrotechnic devices). Every so often our club does a “flare day” where we practice launching flares and smoke off one of our docks. We get USGC permission first (we are located across from one of their major bases). The SOLAS flares are the best, bar none. I have had 100% success with ones that were over 25 years old. The problem is the rule requires replacement if they are over 40 months old. If you have the chance, go to either a Safety at Sea seminar or organize your own flare day. It will be an eye opener. The USCG approved aerial flares are really only good for night time use and the hand held flares sputter and throw off so much slag that you really need to wear a sailing glove. I shudder to think what they would do to a rubber life raft. The 12ga USCG flares are particularly anemic and I went to the 20mm size to get better brightness and hang time.


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## BayWindRider

*What about tasers...*

How about something like this...

Police Officer Equipment: TASER® X3


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## hellosailor

George-
"Shooting a red emergency flare in the USA without prior permission or in an emergency is illegal." Not that I doubt you, but if it is illegal on a federal level, perhaps there's a citation from the USC or CFR you can give us to back that up?

"The USCG, ATF and homeland Security do not consider them [flare guns] to be a "fire arm"" Yeah, but we're not talking about them, we're talking about local, county, and state PDs, and they'll tell you "tell that to the judge" while you're being arrested. In many states a "firearm" is in fact defined in the state laws and usually it is defined alng the lines of "any device which fires, propels, or launches a projectile by any means of stored power, including springs, explosive charges, compressed air or gas..." and yes, you just try carrying one in front of a cop in DC or NYC. It's a GUN in both places, although at least in NYC if you are not displaying it, but transporting it to or from a boat, they'll ignore it. Be seen with it in your hand in a parking lot--and you can tell it to the judge.

And if you think Homeland Security's TSA section is going to allow you to carry it, even unloaded, onto the cabin of a commercial airliner...don't think so. I'd sure like to be there when you try it.


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## GeorgeB

I’ve been to enough seminars, training classes and demonstrations to know that firing a red flare in a non emergency situation is illegal. Call me naïve, but when a CG official tells me something, I tend to believe him. If someone wants to find the paragraph and sentence, knock yourself out. I do know that when it comes to California, the state adopted the federal regulations regarding boating. That way local police can do enforcement. I feel sorry for you guys who have local laws that classify your flare launcher as a “gun”. Must be a PITA to have to get finger printed, background checked and wait 30 days before West Marine will sell you a launcher. As for using one in the commission of a crime – well that too, is beyond my scope of experience. But I tell you one thing, I wouldn’t pull even a squirt gun on an Oakland Ca cop. Heck, I wouldn’t even reach into my pocket to pull out a stick of gum. As to TSA, I have done my fair share of traveling with inflatable vests and flares. And like their regulations say, flares are forbidden in the cabin of the aircraft.


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## hellosailor

"Must be a PITA to have to get finger printed, background checked and wait 30 days before West Marine will sell you a launcher."
No PITA, that's where the authorities are very frank about saying they will and do turn a blind eye as long as the flare gun is kept to a "boating" context. Is that itself illegal? Sure. But that's the official policy, ignore the conflict of the laws when and if the context says "pyro" rather than "handgun".
That's not unusual, you can openly carry a screwdriver and hammer--but they become illegal burglary tools or weapons when used or carried during the commission of the right crimes.
" As to TSA, I have done my fair share of traveling with inflatable vests and flares. And like their regulations say, flares are forbidden in the cabin of the aircraft. " Then you should know, the FAA and TSA officially say the vest can come in the cabin. But as matter of policy, the TSA inspector at the airport sometimes will not allow it. Don't try to bring one through LGA or SeaTac, they tend to be the among pickiest.
And you're not reading what I'm writing: I didn't say the FLARES were prohibited, I said you wouldn't be allowed to carry an unloaded, i.e. empty, flare LAUNCHER into the cabin. Not the flares, just the launcher. It's back to being a "GUN" and if you try to carry it through LaGuardia, you'll be detained or arrested.
"Tell it to the judge."

As to the USCG knowing whether there are magical federal regulations prohibiting the firing of a red pyro? No, their expertise is in marine regulations, not federal law in general. USCG regulations often apply to vessel owners and operators--but not landlubbers standing ashore. If red pyros were generally illegal, the millions of red roman candles sold LEGALLY by licensed pyro businesses every year wouldn't happen. Think about it. Those stores are heavily regulated in the states where they do legally exist. If they can't cite a regulation--they just might be misinformed. Or, you may be confusing the context. Like "flares" versus "empty flare gun". Two totally different things.


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## GeorgeB

I thought that we were talking about the marine emergency flares? Shooting the red ones in a non emergency or without prior approval is forbidden. All I know about aerial fireworks is that they too, are forbidden to the general public in California. If we can keep to marine pyrotechnical devices, then I can contribute. Roman candles and such is not my area of expertise (although I used to hold a Class A Explosives License back in my mining days). To be specific, Marine Emergency Flares and their launchers are forbidden in the cabin of the aircraft, but are allowed to be carried in checked baggage. The reason for the ATF regulation that the launchers must be painted orange or a combination of orange and white is to distinguish them from a “real” hand gun. Good to know about Sea Tac and LaGuardia TSA not being up on their own regulations concerning inflatable life vests. You can add the clowns at LAX International terminal to your list. I have had no problem with my vest as carry-on at SFO, San Jose, Honolulu, San Diego, Cabo, PV, St. George, Madrid, and Las Palmas. Flares go in checked baggage and I do carry a copy of the TSA regs when I travel just in case.


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## jackdale

GeorgeB said:


> Good to know about Sea Tac and LaGuardia TSA not being up on their own regulations concerning inflatable life vests. You can add the clowns at LAX International terminal to your list. I have had no problem with my vest as carry-on at SFO, San Jose, Honolulu, San Diego, Cabo, PV, St. George, Madrid, and Las Palmas.


As an aside, I carry a copy of the airline web page indicating that I can carry an inflatable with an extra cartridge. Just make sure that you declare you are carrying it. Mine goes into checked luggage.


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## GeorgeB

Outbound, I like to take my vest in carry-on as it has a larger (and not to common) cartridge and I’m usually flying out just in time to meet the boat and I just don’t want to risk not having my vest. I know other guys who have been forced to buy vests several times as they couldn’t get the cartridge they needed. The airlines I’ve flown never have checked carry on as I suspect they are really relying on TSA screening. The issue with checked baggage is several years ago a plane was carrying several (undeclared) cylinders of medical gas and one of them exploded at altitude. That incident had the airlines tightening up on their restrictions and why in the old days it was safer to declare the vest at the ticket agent. I “lost” a cartridge once doing that. The funny thing in all of this is my vest is made by the world’s leading manufacturer of airline life vests, rafts and escape chutes. Go figure.


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## jackdale

GeorgeB said:


> The funny thing in all of this is my vest is made by the world's leading manufacturer of airline life vests, rafts and escape chutes. Go figure.


Yep - there is probably one under your seat on the plane. The inflatable pfd's were originally designed by Mustang for military use. My first one says "Air Force" on it. They had to be talked into getting the CG certified.


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## mzatanoskas

How about simple visual deterrents like the fake security camera for burglaries...

I suggest a gas mask and a hose/some kind of spraying device!

If a boat full of unfriendly fishermen approached your boat during the day (like what happened to J Baldwin in the Philippines) and you stood up looking like this with a hose pointed at them...

 I know I'd back off!

It would work whoever was on watch, young or old...


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## Brent Swain

A lady in Comox once tried to commit suicide with a plastic flare gun. She pointed it, point blank, at her chest, and pulled the trigger. It bounced off, and bounced around the cabin, setting the boat on fire. Only burned hell out of her tits, but didn't penetrate. A slingshot has more power.


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## ftldiver

I think other than throwing gas, (Molotov cocktail), and starting a fire, flare guns are over rated as weapons. 

a slingshot, with some real shot has range and can hurt or kill. up to about 25yds. if you practice.

spear gun at < 20 yards, or cross bow, but nobody;s really going to carry one.
and nobody's going to blink if you have 5 spare spears.

and slingshot is for those damn birds, honest officer.


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## Capt Len

I would think it an easy project to turn a monel insert to fit a Very type flare pistol. 3/4 " is for 12 gauge but a 12 gauge(common size) could be sized down to 4/10 for a lead flare.Full 12 g would be hard on the wrist but skeet charge would work well. Problem is ,you'd only get one shot so make it count.Not a full choke,eh!


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## WildJasmine

Potato Cannon filled with rocks and shells?


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## nodders

*gas masks*

love that idea! maybe throw on some Halloween type rubber scars and open sores and they would probably try to get as far away as possible


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## Capt Len

Doubt it. Last time I shot an intruder on my boat it happened so fast I didn't have time to consider his sense of humour.


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## hellosailor

Oddly enough the Florida Nooze carried a story last weekend about cops who responded to a distrubance and shot a man after he threatened them with a flare pistol. One of the highly educated and trained policemen said they HAD to shoot him, because that (Olin type) flare gun could have killed someone, you know if it bounced and hit them in the confines of the building hallway. Honest, that's what he said, the flare could have killed someone, ate right into them.

Next it will be a kid setting his bed on fire, because he shot a flare at the boogeyman underneath it. What do they call that, "Justifiable boogeycide" ? 

FWIW in my limited understanding of these things, a proper Molotov Cocktail is not the same thing as a gasoline bomb. Professor Molotov's contribution is supposedly adding a chemical mixture outside the bottle, so that it first ignites and burns on impact--and does not require being lit with a rag before being thrown. 

Like self-strike matches, not readily found these days. And probably something that wouldn't be caught by anyone inspecting your boat for weapons. Just don't bang THOSE bottles around in the paint locker.


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## erps

> Sorry, but this is probably the most retarded thing I have ever heard.
> 
> Try splashing gasoline from a moving sailboat onto another boat without spilling half on your own. Then go ahead and launch flares.


Not everyone is handicapped with a lack of skill or imagination on how to transfer a breakable container of flamable fluid from one vessel to another without spillage.



> The contraption you mean is called a Molotov cocktail.
> And anyone who comes close enough and is slow/benign enough to be hit by one probably was not a threat in the first place.


How do bad guys board your boat? Teleporter? Here's a Chinese Sailor defending his ship against pirates back in 2008.











> The floating line drags a mine, I presume?


No just a floating line to try and foul the prop on the other boat. You know, like they did in Whale Wars where they disabled a whaling ship.


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## mzatanoskas

hellosailor said:


> One of the highly educated and trained policemen said they HAD to shoot him, because that (Olin type) flare gun could have killed someone, you know if it bounced and hit them in the confines of the building hallway. Honest, that's what he said, the flare could have killed someone, ate right into them.


to be fair, unless the policeman had experience of flare guns, I would have thought it a reasonable assumption to make.



hellosailor said:


> FWIW in my limited understanding of these things, a proper Molotov Cocktail is not the same thing as a gasoline bomb. Professor Molotov's contribution is supposedly adding a chemical mixture outside the bottle, so that it first ignites and burns on impact--and does not require being lit with a rag before being thrown.


Molotov was a Soviet minister and the molotov cocktail was mockingly named in his honour by the Finns when they were using it to fight off the Soviets in 1939.

I imagine it's a dirty but effective additional level of defence when trying to fight off pirates from boarding your container ship, but a lot less useful and probably far more dangerous to yourself as a fire hazard on a sailing boat. In a somali pirate type situation any resistance like this is likely to make your death/rape/torture a lot more probable I'd imagine.

But keeping with nautical tradition, for a rough and ready way to tackle unwanted intruders on your boat how about a good old slung shot/monkey's fist? They're illegal in loads of places, but I doubt they'd be recognised by many and could actually have a legitimate place on most boats.

Otherwise a simple cosh is suprisingly effective, easy to use and could be disguised in amusing ways if you have the imagination, or even the good old snooker ball in a sock?! You won't have trouble in customs with that. The lack of visual deterrent in this case can be made up for by stripping to your waist, swinging said sock with snooker ball wildly round your head whilst repeatedly shouting "Who's the f***ng daddy?!" in your best Ray Winstone accent.

Aaah, all satisfying ways of bashing would be pirates brains out... almost as fun as killing zombies...  

I'd imagine prevention is much better than cure in any of these cases, as in keep out of areas with piracy problems, keep up to date on local info and follow all precautionary measures that local authorities advise...


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## LManess

So, let me get this straight. We're talking about alternatives to guns here right? So, now we're trying to convert a flare gun into a gun??? I thought that was what you were trying not to do.

Somehow I think we might have lost the thread.

Personally, I'll take my uzi any day.

Linda


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## erps

> You are confusing that freighter with your sailboat.


No, I'm not.



> That Chinese guy's Molotov cocktails are not going to topple all over him in the next wave.


again, not everyone is as handicapped with a lack of skill or innovation on dealing with such issues and not all acts of aggression happen on the high seas. I've been sailing for years and I hardly ever spill my beer.



> Oh, and the railing he is going to duck behind is steel.
> I hear that stuff is relatively bullet proof compared to plastic boats.


Actually, the 7.62 round shot by an AK-47 penetrates steel plates as well. This one is 1/4 inch thick. Upper hole on the left is 7.62.











> Oh, one more thing: If I was a pirate in an over-motorized small boat, with an ak47, I know precisely what I would do if I suddenly was confronted by a fool raising a Molotov cocktail or bucket of fuel (you suggested to splash, right?) over his head; just what every even half-witted human being would do:
> Shoot him before he can set me on fire.


Now go back and read my original post where I said:



> *might persuade many offenders to pick another target*.


Not every pirate is an AK-47 wielding crook. An example:


> There has been a lot of violence against cruisers in this hurricane hole over the past year, including the murder of Daniel Drydren on his Southern Cross 39 yacht Sunday's Child. Daniel and his wife Nancy were anchored off Monkey Marina when four robbers armed with machetes and an ice pick swam out to demand money. Dryden was attacked, and died from the ice pick wounds he suffered after confronting the thieves. Despite suffering a punctured lung, his wife Nancy survived. This attack was not isolated, and many other yachts have been attacked and robbed while anchored in the Rio Dulce.


So you stand there in your skiff waiving your machete while you're dripping in gasoline and I'm suggesting you move along while pointing a flare gun at you. No one gets hurt if you're reasonable and leave.



> Absolutely brilliant de-esclation strategy.


The thread was about alternate weapons other than guns not about de-escalation. Do you have anything to suggest or add, or are you just here to make friends with your wonderful manners?


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## erps

> So you are the kind of dude who would actually try to spill gas over a ragged fisherman who is looking for a quick buck, to beg some cigarettes, maybe even to snatch an outboard or cell phone if he can.


My line of work requires quick assessments of a situation and then acting in a reasonable and appropriate manner. You don't know me.



> If you really go around like this, I just hope that you meet the guy with the ak47 with your bucket of fuel, BEFORE I run into a bunch of ragged and poor, but formerly manageable fishermen that have been splashed by your bucket.


I hope neither one of us runs into trouble. You're revealing what kind of a person you are with your statement though. I mean really, what kind of a person hopes someone will run into trouble?


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## 97fxdwg

I thought I left this kind of crap behind in that other forum.


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## scotlark46

I agree. I don;t think the responses on this issue are very well thought out. For all the angst about having guns or sliding some kind of gun past customs, I sure would like to hear about some recent example where there is a country with significant crime and they still want to fine/sieze somebody's boat. After all Honduras has the world's highest per capita murder rate. And the rest of Central America, less Costa Rica are not that far behind. And then there is Mexico. I live in Austin, Tx. our hairdresser/barber who is a dual citizen, refuses to drive to Laredo, park her car on the American side, walk across the bridge and go to her doctor. Women disappear there. A lot. 
And I am supposed to carry a plastic AK 47? Shoot somebody with a flare gun? 
Part of the problem with this discussion is an inability to discuss magnitude of risk. In an isolated South Pacific island or maybe the Bahama's or Windward/ Leewards, if someone wanted to it would be hard to do a major crime. Everybody would know almost immediately. These places are so small and close knit. 
So let me talk about petty theft, burglary and minor, poorly thought out hijackings or stick ups on the water. First, I can see why the local, mayor/chief/headman/cop doesn't want a bunch of jumpy first world yachties armed to fight Somali pirates. Might be best to have the firepower locked up. What could you do? For starters. lock stuff up. Hoist out your dink at night. Run a long cable from the motor, up the boat and and leave about 6 foot thru the front cleat. Tie up and lock up. Lock your door/hatch at night. I do it on land at night, why not make a solid screen door and use it? Come on, you lock your door in town. 
There are some steps that seem obvious that I am not hearing in this thread. If the problem is a cat burgler or some kids out to unscrew a cleat or cut off some line, why not some form of alarm? One guy used tacks on deck. Better, how about rigging the top strand of your rail, which is your perimeter fence with a switch? Pull on the cable/rail and it turns on the spreader lights or trips an alarm. More serious but I still have not heard it would be an electric cattle fence. Doesn't have to be on or even deployed all the time. But sure will take the starch out of somebody real quick. And might make some US law enforcement types understand the phrases, "permission to come aboard?" or "do you have jurisdiction?". 
Ok, what about a situation where you are not sure of someone's intentions? At least at night if someone has crawled aboard you can be sure they are up to no good. Is that guy an over agressive fish salesman or something worse? How can you say" don't come on my boat without saying I'm gonna kill you? " For starters, how about being real clear ? Be agressive" You, you don't have permission to come on my boat" " No Molestar!" Shine a light in their eyes. Turn on your spreader lights. It should solve the problem. If not you know something is up. You are justified to go to the next level in any country. 
It seems that the big advantage you have against anyone in a small boat is simply height and the difficulty of clambering up. You did flip the ladder up, right? Don't give that advantage up. It seems to me that 2 obvious and "peaceful" weapons are wasp spray and a baseball bat. You do have a bat for fishing? Goes with the pole hook, the rum and the hacksaw. You keep these 2 in the cockpit. Someone tries to climb up you yell then tap them on the knuckles. They don;t get the idea, there is no upper limit as to how hard you can hit. But maybe you don't want/can't get physical? Wasp spray is a serious weapon. There is an awful lot in a can and it goes out 20 feet. Even with wrap around sunglasses, which is why the bad boys wear them, you can;t win. Being hosed with toxic, stinging spray in they eyes, stops anyone. You can't see, you can't fight. 
Even if someone pulls a gun in a small boat, you still have height. You can back up to be a smaller or nonexistant target. You can hose them over the edge. And shout for someone to bring the gun. Even if you don;t have one. 
I really haven't been impressed with most of the other solutions that I have seen in these posts. Maybe a spear or sword against one person. Be careful they don't take it away from you. There seems to be lots of macho posturing on threads like this. How many of these people have been in a real serious situation? Things happen fast. Most criminals are opportunists, they go for the easy stuff. Can't tell you how many situations I have avoided by looking the guy in the eye, smiling and saying Hi. Same for boats, stay out of harms way and have a real solution that is ready right now. 
I guess I should go on into real shoot em up situations. They exist. Kidnapping is a big problem in Latin America. I worry that the locals will figure out how to take boats. A couple of guys in a dinghy is one thing, a whole boat load of guys in a fishing boat is entirely different. I read one comment from a former Brit SAS, that's Special Forces! He said that he doubted that he could hit anyone at 100 yards with a rifle. Make that 50 yards for an experienced deer hunter. Never handled a gun? Ten yards is more like it with both boats rocking. 
The classic solution is a blunderbuss. Or in modern parlance, a pump shotgun. Which gets me to a question. Who wants to surrender your gun at your first port of call? That means you have to go back there to leave the country. You don't need one in the Med. Or the South Pacific, or the Windward/Leewards. Might be real nice in Indonesia, or the Phillipines or going south thru the Suez canal. My question is, can you get Fed Ex to ship your gun, under bond, to a specific port? Just Asking. 
Sorry for the long post. And frankly, I have cut this down too much. 
Thanks, 
Lark


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## denverd0n

Wasp spray is NOT a serious weapon. The notion that it is, is nothing more than an urban legend. I've been sprayed with wasp spray before, accidentally. It did not even come CLOSE to incapacitating me.

If you don't want to carry a gun, for whatever reason, my advice would be a squirt bottle full of amonia. To customs it is just a cleanser. Give someone a squirt of that in the face, though, and they are going to be in a world of hurt.

Some fishing sinkers in a sock can also work pretty well. Have that in one hand, and the amonia in the other, and I think you would be about as well armed as you are going to get, without opting for a real firearm.


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## Capt. Gary Randall

A starting fluid can and a Bic lighter will do a lot of damage at close range and I have used this method before............... a mini flamethrower...... there is a very long thread about this already if you want to do the research. captg


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## Capt. Gary Randall

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/polit...pirate-defense-methods-post893566.html#893566


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## scotlark46

I hate writing these things because I always think of things I should have said after I post. I like wasp spray because you can discharge a whole can of it in someones face,at a significant distance even into the wind. While I disagree with denverdon, it is not too much of a disagreement. As I remember a Super Soaker with ammonia is a ghetto weapon. I like the wasp spray because it is an innocuous spray can and can get thru any customs. "The wife is very allergic, we always carry it, see here is the EpiPen" What can they say?
The point I wanted to make is different. You can good vibe your way thru a whole series of confrontations. You should always try. Having a weapon that is not obviously a life threatening weapon is a good place to start. Smile and tell them they can't come aboard. Or they need to leave now and you will talk to them in their boat is a far better way to deal with a confrontation. These type of threads tend to spin off into way too much technology and not enough communication. Guess it's because we are guys. 
Also, there is an old Texas beer hall trick. The guy is up front, loud and in your face. But he can be talked down. I'ts his girl that has the gun in her purse. She is going to end it if somebody doesn't calm down. On a boat, she is below, calling the cops. And who knows what she is going to come out with? 
Having a plan is way better than not having a plan.


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## MedSailor

scotlark46 said:


> ....


*Why? Why?? WHY???*

This thread died a natural death 7 months ago! Why resurrect it? There are so many other less rancorous threads where everybody gets along, threads that everyone agrees on like the best type of anchor, varnish, or storm tactic.

Oh, and welcome to SailNet. 

MedSailor


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## Mike Banks

If you really want a simple but effective "Low Tech" device you could employ the old sailing-ship man's weapon--a slung shot. This wonderfully simple thing was a lead weight on a piece of wire or strong cord about ten to twelve inches long, although some were a bit longer, with a handle or toggle on the other end. With a little practice one can withdraw it from a pocket in the palm of the hand, then whip it across an assailant's face where it will momentarily or permanently disturb them. 

The cord can also be used as a garotte to complete the job, or you can then sort out the next knife-wielder, because you can reach him while you are out of his reach. A whack on the wrist will shatter bones, and the knife will drop.

You could make up one for each hand. They only take a few moments to make, and one need not carry them on to airplanes. If you do make up more than one, you will also discover that with a little practice you can throw them with surprising force and reasonable accuracy. For those who fondly imagine that intruders are just "friends we have not yet met" or impoverished fisher folk with poor toilet training, leave these close-quarter weapons alone. You will by nature probably lack the necessary determination to defend yourself, and these take some practice to learn to use swiftly. They are a surprise weapon primarily. Use them against pumpkins to begin with--at least you can make some nice soup out of the undamaged portions of the victims.


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## beachbm61

We normally keep our FishHawk Bow fishing rig handy. Also spearguns help.


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## denverd0n

beachbm61 said:


> We normally keep our FishHawk Bow fishing rig handy. Also spearguns help.


And both, just like a gun, will be impounded or locked up when you enter certain countries.


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## beachbm61

DenverOd,
Definety correct. Always check the rules for where you're headed. And even then that might not be enough. We've been from Clearwater,Fl to Panama. Most countries officials asked about firearms but did not look, one looked, and one said " I'm a sailor, we know you all have weapons onboard but you don't need them here, leave them on your boat if you please". But our equipement is used for food so it stays.


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