# America's Cup Multihull Battle Set For February 2010



## downeast450

For me, it is a real loss not having the series elimination races and the world wide coverage of some amazing sailing. The battle over the Deed of Gift match has eliminated the most exciting displays of the best sailing talent in the world. It has done a disservice to racing.

I am interested in the performance of the multihulls and their single elimination series. It doesn't involve what most of us know as racing. It is a performance display of engineering milestones. Imaging having a fleet of maned ultralights scouting for wind 1000M out. Wow! 

I am feeling cheated. I was looking forward to watching the duels in the box and following the animations. O-well! 

I hope they don't decide to open the Tour De France to only the two fastest motorcycles in the world for a one day race.

Down


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## smackdaddy

I look forward to the race - but I agree that it's become something different.

I'm still a fan of the VOR and Vendee - and now the Clipper. Great races.


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## PCP

downeast450 said:


> For me, it is a real loss not having the series elimination races and the world wide coverage of some amazing sailing. The battle over the Deed of Gift match has eliminated the most exciting displays of the best sailing talent in the world. It has done a disservice to racing.
> 
> I am interested in the performance of the multihulls and their single elimination series. It doesn't involve what most of us know as racing. It is a performance display of engineering milestones. Imaging having a fleet of maned ultralights scouting for wind 1000M out. Wow!
> 
> I am feeling cheated. I was looking forward to watching the duels in the box and following the animations. O-well!
> 
> I hope they don't decide to open the Tour De France to only the two fastest motorcycles in the world for a one day race.
> 
> Down


I agree, except for the motorcycles on the Tour de France


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## smackdaddy

With all the doping in the TdF - it has become all about technology too. Maybe not motorcycles - but chemically-fueled-bio-mass-driven-bicycles?


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## tonybinTX

Anyone know how to catch the AC coverage in the US?


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## PCP

I have just read on Sail Magazine a very good article about speed prediction on both boats.

The article is signed by Ian Campbell and that guy is a kind of wizard on the subject.

He says that the American boat will prevail and by a considerable margin, providing that the "team can keep the rig in the boat"

I believe that this competition with these boats is going to bring new developments to the sail state of art, but I found shameful the way all the others teams were kept apart.

I find also ridiculous the upper wind limit set for the racing conditions: 15k

I believe we will see a lot of races interrupted by excessive wind and also a lot of failures in those boats. They are optimized for light winds and probably don't have the extra strength that is needed for a reasonable safety margin.

I believe that the possibility of a capsize while racing is probably a real one.

I also believe that the winner will be not the fastest but the one that could finish the races and remain in one piece.

I only wish they could race on these conditions:

YouTube - Trimarans - Lunatic Sailing


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## PCP

tonybinTX said:


> Anyone know how to catch the AC coverage in the US?


The races are going to be transmitted live on the internet.


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## SailingStNick

Here's the link.

Can someone give me the run down of why this is all of the sudden a trimaran race, instead of several monohulls racing to race the defender? I know there's a long history of the America's Cup.


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## PCP

Between a cat and a trimaran.

Long story. It was to be like you have said, the teams had already chosen the boat (a mono hull) and then BMW Oracle made a court claim saying the Spanish challenger defy was not by the book (a technicality).

An US court gave reason to them, and BMW Oracle was the new Challenger.

BMW Oracle chose to put all the other teams out of the game and opted for a giant trimaran on a single defy with Alinghy.


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## WanderingStar

I see it differently. Alinghi was trying to control all facets of the race, including the judges. Oracle fought and won in court the right to fight it out on the water.


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## paulk

*My understanding*

is that the defender decided to pick a monohull different from the AC class that had been racing for the cup, and prepared a boat to that rule. Then he created a sham Spanish YC that agreed to his rules. These included his total control on such things as mentioned by WanderingStar and others, like moving the venue to Ras al Kaminah and setting a timetable that precluded competitors from having sufficient time to build boats capable of beating the one he'd already started. When essentially the one guy with enough money and fire to call him on this called foul, and went to court over it, the Judge threw the whole rulebook at the defenders. Their assertion that Ras al Kaminah was a viable, secure spot to race is a case in point. At about the time the issue came up before the Judge, Iran seized a British 60' racing sailboat for entering their territory a rather short distance from where the AC racing would have been held, and arrested the crew. 
Though sailing big multihulls may be fascinating, the racing is likely to be quite boring. Neither boat is too maneuverable, so don't look for tight circling before the start. After the start, both boats will try to separate to get clear air and shift up to maximum speed as quickly as possible. Wow! Big multihulls zipping along at 20 knots or more! Why not just watch videos of Hydroptère, which is faster? Tacking multihulls is SLOW, so they'll both probably head straight for their laylines and only tack once each leg. Like in a drag race, once the faster boat has been determined, (probably at the first weather mark) the competition will essentially be over. Breakdowns or crew foulups could make the mix more interesting, but both boats have had time to be tested, and the wind range they've settled on shouldn't stress them to break too much. I guess we'll see in a few weeks.


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## PCP

WanderingStar said:


> I see it differently. Alinghi was trying to control all facets of the race, including the judges. Oracle fought and won in court the right to fight it out on the water.


I am not disputing that the SNG (Alinghy) had exemplar behavior, only saying that the major responsibility for having excluded all the other teams and for having an America´s cup disputed with giant multihull was from GGYC (Oracle/BMW).

In what regards the "right to fight it out on the water", let me remind you that GGYC had tried, by all means and till the last minute, to avoid fight it on the water, at the agreed date:

"Justice Kornreich of the New York Supreme Court informed (29/01) the America's Cup defending yacht club, Société Nautique de Genève, and the challenging Golden Gate Yacht Club today via telephone conference that she will not hear the American challenger's complaint regarding the '_constructed in country_' requirement of the Deed of Gift before the 33rd America's Cup Match which is scheduled to begin on 8 February.

This means the 33rd America's Cup is free to proceed as ordered by previous New York rulings: in Valencia on the 8, 10 and 12 February.

"This is excellent news. We are delighted that BMW Oracle's attempts to disqualify Alinghi and to *win the America's Cup in court* have been denied. We look forward to meeting them on the start line here in Valencia on 8 February to race for the Cup; something they can no longer try to avoid," said Ernesto Bertarelli - two-time America's Cup winner - on hearing the news when returning ashore after today's race training session."

<O</OAs you certainly know, the GGYC last complaint about "constructed in country" had to do with the sails of the Alinghy boat, not with the boat itself. It looks like Oracle´s boat is a genuine product of the American technology, but as you know, almost all knowledge and technology needed to built Oracle's boat, including the sails come (with the technicians to build it) from France, the most advanced country on multihull tech. 

Even the American Court found that complaint was too much. 

Regards

Paulo<O</O


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## PCP

paulk said:


> is that the defender decided to pick a monohull different from the AC class that had been racing for the cup, and prepared a boat to that rule. Then he created a sham Spanish YC that agreed to his rules. These included his total control on such things as ... like moving the venue to Ras al Kaminah and setting a timetable that precluded competitors from having sufficient time to build boats capable of beating the one he'd already started.....


Paul, first let me say that I like racing and fairness and that it seems that in this forum not many people like it (racing) if you judge for the numbers of visits of the America's cup threads. I like racing and I like to participate and talk about it (I have been in Valencia the last America´s Cup and I will try to be there this year). So please don't see my comments as any form of confrontation. I know that you like racing also and that makes us having something in common, besides sailing.

Saying that, I don´t think you are right about Ras al Kaminah. Fact is that the races initially were to be in Valencia:
"When Société Nautique de Genève (SNG) successfully defended the trophy in the 32nd America's Cup they immediately accepted a challenge from Club Náutico Español de Vela (CNEV) a Spanish organization formed expressly for the purpose of challenging for the cup and keeping the regatta in Valencia."

<O</ORas al Kaminah was only proposed by SNG at a later phase, when all the other teams were out, the multihulls were on and were ragging a Court Battle about everything and nothing.

We talk about SNG and GGNC, as if this was a battle between Clubs but we know this is not true, this ended up to be an ugly battle between two megalomaniac billionaires. That´s why I have said that Oracle/BMW have turned out to be the defenders (on court) by a technicality (they were not even at the finals of the last CUP). And I was not the only one, as you can see, in the own city of the GGNC, there are very credible sources that say the same:
<O</O
"Taking advantage of loopholes in the documents governing the defense and challenge for the Cup, BMW/ORACLE was able to secure a one-against-one match race against Alinghi, rather than the usual multi-team challenger series of fleet races and match races previously used to determine which team would eventually win the right to challenge the Cup defender."

Confused? You're in very good company. The legal challenges, and the legal bills, may surpass the complexity and cost of the boats themselves.

The last time such an odd America's Cup loop-hole challenge was made was in 1988, when New Zealander Sir Michael Fay challenged Dennis Conner and the San Diego Yacht Club, who then held the Cup, with a mono-hulled "monster boat". Conner, responding with a few deft legal loophole jumps of his own, defeated Sir Michael with a giant purpose-built catamaran, winning back the Cup."
<O</O
http://www.examiner.com/x-29731-Americas-Cup-Examiner~y2009m11d10-Its-on--Americas-Cup-rivals-finally-reach-agreement-over-matchrace-venue

Regarding the choice of boat, as you know, many different monohulls were chosen for the different CUPs. The one proposed was better faster and more modern than the last one and would have permitted more spectacular races. If there was some disagreement between the teams regarding the Protocol (and the Protocol was later altered to accommodate some of the challengers' demands) that has nothing to do with the choice of the boat, that was almost consensual. The boat details were also displayed in good time and " SNG continued to work with the other teams on the protocol, and by December 2007 twelve challengers had met the entry deadline and were preparing to race in a multi-challenge 33rd America's Cup".

These twelve challengers had already put some of the best world boat designers at work and some were already building the boats (I had saw the basic layout of that boat and it was a beautiful boat - bigger, beamier and a lot faster, specially downwind).
<O</O
So, it seems that it displeases you, as much as me that the CUP has turned out not to be about a sailing race but a personal dispute between two very rich Megalomaniacs, that the most important match race should not be raced in gigantic monohulls and that is wrong that all other teams (including the last final contender) have been excluded. So, it seems that we agree on the essential.
<O</O
For the ones that want to know more about the America´s cup, Wikipedia has two good articles, one generic, another on this year's Cup.
<O</O
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/33rd_America%27s_Cup<O</O
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America's_Cup
<O</O
And if you look well at its story you will see that fairness, was not always on the table. After all it looks that not all sailors are Gentlemen .

Regards

Paulo


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## downeast450

Paulo,

Well said! I wonder what the 34th defense will hold?

Down


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## Alberg30

this from NPR. Looks like both sides would rather race monohulls:

America's Cup Sails Into (And Over) Uncharted Seas : NPR


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## PCP

Thanks Down.

These guys are incredible. 5 days away from the first race and there are still court decisions. That's childish.

Today, jury decision:

Twitter feeds - News feed - 33rd America's Cup
http://www.americascup.com/multimedia/docs/2010/02/Americas_Cup_Decision_3301.pdf

One of the claims (by Oracle/BMW) that was not atended was about the hour to begin the races. They wanted to start later. Alinghy team said that if it was later, they would finish at night. Oracle/BMW said that there was nothing on the rules that said they could not finish at night.

Match racing at night


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## PCP

Not even a win of Alinghy on the water will stop the Oracle/BMW. I mean if they lose, they can still win...not on the water, but on a US court:

*"Court Date Set for "Constructed in Country"*
The New York Supreme Court will hear arguments February 25th on the issue of whether the Defender's sails comply with the rules regarding national origin of racing yachts in the America's Cup. Since that date is, weather permitting, after the likely conclusion of racing in Valencia, yet could determine the validity of the match, an element of uncertainty exists as to race results. Less so if Golden Gate YC and BMW Oracle Racing prevail on the water, in which case claims of disadvantage would be effectively moot, and, although definitively settling this aspect of the rules could be helpful in future matches, GGYC would almost certainly drop their case.​
The Deed of Gift, the ruling 08document of the America's Cup, requires the competing yachts to be powered by sails and constructed in the country they represent. "​
America's Cup News and Information - from CupInfo.com

Alinghi : Defender of the 33rd America's Cup - Further clarity for the 33rd America's Cup Match​


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## soulofmine

I never remember much coverage of the event when I was growing up. It seems I could only ever manage to catch part of the race on some random lazy sunday afternoon.

Having just gotten back in to sailing, I have to say that I was quite looking forward to this year's race, admiring how the real racing crews handled their large boats in tough racing conditions. Though I will probably still enjoy the multi-hulls, I was really looking forward to some tactical (traditional) monohull dueling, and now am a bit disappointed.

I find great value in traditon. Sometimes people let it bind progress, and that's always a touchy subject, but for the most part there is usually a reason it became a traditon. To me this is like selling your classic muscle car for a suped-up Fast and Furious nitros racer. Great speed, but limited class.


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## PCP

RepCast Weather for Race 1: Monday morning overcast with light rain. Breeze of around 9-12 knots will come from the SW initially, but begin to swing around to the WNW during the morning, freshen to around 15-18 knots; prediction is that wind will continue to increase to 25-28 knots by the late afternoon. (Feb 5)

America's Cup News and Information - from CupInfo.com

These are very good racing conditions = max speed.

I am very curious to see what happens if they start with 12k and the wind builds up to 18k - 20k. We can make bets on what boat will break first


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## PCP777

I have no idea where or when I can watch this.


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## PCP

8 February, 10.00 am CET

America's Cup 2010: Schedule for the 33rd Defense of the America's Cup - from CupInfo

America's Cup 2010: Schedule for the 33rd Defense of the America's Cup - from CupInfo Broadcast Schedule:


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## PCP

No race today. Not enough wind (4-6K).

New race Wednesday 10.00CTE

Meanwhile, what do you think of this statement?

There's been *33 months of back and forth, having a court decide who is the rightful challenger of record*, what boats may race, and where they can or can't race, and every permutation of rule has been twisted and examined. Sides have been chosen around the America's Cup world, and *this may be the least friendly competition among nations for yachting's great prize* to ever slide down the ways.

Offset by race boats that are as beautiful, high-tech and quite literally lethal as any ever built, the sailing portion of the match takes over today from the designing and building. And nobody has ever built boats like there for inshore racing. 79 miles of straight line racing, today's 20 nm to Windward and Return, plus Wednesday's 39 miles around the triangular course, as the crow flies, and some issues could finally be settled.

*Not the least of these issues is the Battle for the Soul of the America's Cup *that has raged increasingly hot since July, 2009. The near future of the event, if not its entire future, may ride on the outcome.

There are some who think there is something wrong with a match between the two most advanced sailboats one the planet, two yachts indeed conjured into being just for these few races and cast into shape according to a spell written in 1887 by George Schuyler. The truth is that this is the closest the Cup has come in some time to what it was originally. This is not a pageant, *this not a participation event* to satisfy sponsors, it's not intended to be done on the cheap or for the thrill of competing, a*nd there are no intentions of parity* for the sake of entertainment.

*This is about winning*. It's about excellence and pushing the limits to get there, and this is what made the America's Cup big and famous in the first place. *It is serious, serious, sport.* It's taken imagination, some real guts, and *cubic money* to get to this point, nearly unlimited except by constraints of time.

*...the competitors have real anger, the stakes beyond mere pride. *


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## LandLocked66c

Wow, who wrote that? If thats true, who were the first competitors in the cup? I'm curious now...


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## Sabreman

I love the statement and agree with nearly all of it. 

In December, I had the opportunity to see the BMW Oracle village set p in San Diego behind the Convention Center. The mast is enormous and the one that I saw seemed to have been torn in half. It guess that it was a reject. I guess that they shipped the boat shortly thereafter since the whole village seemed to have vanished overnight.

I've followed the AC since I was a kid and it seems to me that the organizers are far less interested in world media/interest that in years past. The statement is correct that there is no interest in anything but winning; no promotional races, etc. The attitude seems to be "Who cares about the rest of the world?" The whole thing seems to have been overshadowed by the court antics and seems to have been superseded on much of the world stage by other races like Vendee and Volvo OR. 

I'll watch some of the videos and will cheer for the US, but am really interested in the next VOR.


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## FSMike

landlocked -
The schooner America vs. the British yacht Titania. When the race was over, the cup belonged to the America, hence the name.


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## CalypsoP35

It a shame that unless I just missed it, there is no historical overview of the AC on the current AC website. That in and of itself tells you something.

But as FS and PCP pointed out, the AC is basically, I've got this big ass fast sail boat come and beat me but on my terms. If it weren't for all the bickering, in reality it is the purest form of sailboat racing.


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## LandLocked66c

FSMike said:


> landlocked -
> The schooner America vs. the British yacht Titania. When the race was over, the cup belonged to the America, hence the name.


Thanks!

I went to wikipedia and read the history, pretty cool! Bunch of "rich" guys racing boats - seems to me. I doubt the word "rich" really covers the amount of money spent. Looking forward to the race!


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## zz4gta

During the live feed on ESPN 360 this morning they estimated BMWO easily spent 100 million dollars in this effort. Yes, I said this morning at 3:45am, I'm at work now, and sleep deprived. Watching 2 boats float around for over an hour in no breeze pretty much sucked. But that's what Ernie wanted.


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## PCP

FSMike said:


> landlocked -
> The schooner America vs. the British yacht Titania. When the race was over, the cup belonged to the America, hence the name.


I had the pleasure of being Captain of a copy of the Schooner America ...for half an hour .... the time that was needed to have my Coastal certification. Well a little bit more because the true Captain of the boat saw that I was enjoying myself so much that let me be more time at the wheel than what was really necessary.

Lovely boat and a very good memory.

http://barcoavista.blogspot.com/2009/06/navio-escola-polar.html


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## smackdaddy

zz4gta said:


> During the live feed on ESPN 360 this morning they estimated BMWO easily spent 100 million dollars in this effort. Yes, I said this morning at 3:45am, I'm at work now, and sleep deprived. Watching 2 boats float around for over an hour in no breeze pretty much sucked. But that's what Ernie wanted.


Jeez - it does make you roll your eyes. What they've done to this event with all the money, bitterness, and legal wrangling is really sad.

Sometimes I think they don't deserve wind.


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## zz4gta

As slow as the 12 meters were/are, I'd rather see them race. Smaller budgets, better racing, better tactics. This is just find a puff to get moving, and then drag race around the course. It's no longer 'match' racing. As sad as it is, I'll still set my alarm for 0345 on weds and hope for better breeze.


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## smackdaddy

Hey ZZ - help me figure out this Global Regatta thing I'm working on:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/racing/61800-global-big-freakin-regatta-possible.html

I think it could be pretty fun - and could possibly get more people involved in racing their boats just for the fun of it. It's the absolute antithesis of match racing.

Let me know what you think.


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## AE28

PCP said:


> No race today. Not enough wind (4-6K).
> New race Wednesday 10.00CTE


Monday's race was scrubbed because they supposedly didn't have enough wind.

They didn't sail on Wednesday because it was too rough for them (1.3 - 1.8 meter wave height).

_downeast450_ asked about the 34th defense. Maybe it should be RC boats in an indoor pool, with a court appointed person in control of the fan.

 
Paul


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## PCP

AE28 said:


> Monday's race was scrubbed because they supposedly didn't have enough wind.
> 
> They didn't sail on Wednesday because it was too rough for them (1.3 - 1.8 meter wave height).
> 
> ....... Paul


Probably tomorrow it will be postponed because it will probably be too windy ( and that is really easy)

And why the well do they need a day off? To recover from the stress and trauma of not racing?

I have taken some vacation days to be able to go to Valencia, but I am so disappointed with that mess that I am thinking of going elsewhere. Anyway only by miracle I would be there on a race day, unless I would stay for a week or so, just waiting to happen. Not enough patience for that


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## CalypsoP35

AC33 is about to go into the start sequence. Finally!!!!


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## LandLocked66c

Are there any links online that I could possibly view this at work?


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## bljones

Try here:

Watch Live Sports Online, Sports Video Streaming - ESPN360.com


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## soulofmine

America's Cup TV - 33rd America's Cup


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## SailingStNick

The high quality feed is too inconsistent. The medium band is satisfactory with no buffering.


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## LandLocked66c

Cool thanks guys!


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## LandLocked66c

> USA leading by 2980 metres or so.


Damn, we must be kicking @SS!!!


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## smackdaddy

Definitely impressive.

I'd call that a bit of a spanking. 3500+ meters. Ouch.


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## WanderingStar

How beautiful are those boats under sail?
A: How much is there.


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## sneuman

there's no visual perspective without close match racing. They could be going 25 knots or 5. This is a problem for the future of the race if it stays in multis.


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## PCP

smackdaddy said:


> Definitely impressive.
> 
> I'd call that a bit of a spanking. 3500+ meters. Ouch.


Yes, it seems Ian Campbell is right. This guy that is a kind of wizard on boat speed prediction (he has worked for several teams on several America's Cup) has said more than two weeks ago that the " American boat will prevail and by a considerable margin". He has published a detailed article on the subject on the last edition of Sail magazine.

It seems that BMW/Oracle will easily win this edition of the America's cup.

But unfortunately (in my opinion) this edition has nothing to do with match racing. Nothing to do with the art of sailing and with sailors performance.

This edition has to do with boat technology. The main winner is a fixed wing designed by a French. This edition produced two beautiful boats and certainly is a breakthrough on sailing technology and on advanced sailing boats.

The question is: Do we want an America's Cup as a technological competition, a design boat competition or do we want a sailor's competition, a competition with equivalent boats with focus on the sailors as a team and on their quality and performance, in other words, a match racing competition?

Regards

Paulo


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## sailingdog

Personally, I think that it would be much more exciting to have the teams on identically outfitted boats...and let the best sailor/helmsman/tactician/navigator win, rather than it being a series of lawsuits followed by really advanced but rather single purpose boats.

I know that isn't what the Deed says...but it sure would be more interesting to watch than the really unfair race that just happened, where one competitor was basically so outclassed it isn't even funny.


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## smackdaddy

PCP said:


> Yes, it seems Ian Campbell is right. This guy that is a kind of wizard on boat speed prediction (he has worked for several teams on several America's Cup) has said more than two weeks ago that the " American boat will prevail and by a considerable margin". He has published a detailed article on the subject on the last edition of Sail magazine.
> 
> It seems that BMW/Oracle will easily win this edition of the America's cup.
> 
> But unfortunately (in my opinion) this edition has nothing to do with match racing. Nothing to do with the art of sailing and with sailors performance.
> 
> This edition has to do with boat technology. The main winner is a fixed wing designed by a French. This edition produced two beautiful boats and certainly is a breakthrough on sailing technology and on advanced sailing boats.
> 
> The question is: Do we want an America's Cup as a technological competition, a design boat competition or do we want a sailor's competition, a competition with equivalent boats with focus on the sailors as a team and on their quality and performance, in other words, a match racing competition?
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Good points PCP.

This is precisely why I like the VOR. It's everything yacht racing should be.

I just think the match-style racing is a thing of the past. And what we're seeing with AC is evidence of that. This was nothing but super expensive drag racing. And that's fine - but at some point...who cares?


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## zz4gta

Anyone see the pre-start? Talk about a brass pair. Takes guts to fly 2 hulls at 20+ with a $100 mil. boat into another 100mil. boat to draw a foul. The announcers on ESPN360.com were having some fun.


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## LandLocked66c

In a sense the AC has returned to the purest form of itself. It was basically about design and technology originally, Was it not?


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## smackdaddy

zz4gta said:


> Anyone see the pre-start? Talk about a brass pair. Takes guts to fly 2 hulls at 20+ with a $100 mil. boat into another 100mil. boat to draw a foul. The announcers on ESPN360.com were having some fun.


zz- is there any video of that up? I missed that part.


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## sneuman

I think the innovation in boat design is still key, but there's got to be more to it than just 90-feet on the waterline and anything else goes.


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## PCP

LandLocked66c said:


> In a sense the AC has returned to the purest form of itself. It was basically about design and technology originally, Was it not?


No, it was basically about winning. On one of the editions, the race was set in a place full of shoals. The Americans that knew the waters, made a passage through them, while the Brits had to sail around That´s true, but I am kidding. Yes you are right, even if for many years it was not fair. The British had to cross the Atlantic and their boat had to be strong enough to make the passage (and come back) while the American boats were designed for semi-protected waters and therefore could be lighter and faster (that's basically why the America's cup stayed so many years in the US).

But yes, you are right, now It is about Design and Technology and...about money, a lot of money. If the next one goes on that direction I think that three things should be guaranteed: That the challenger should be the best among all the unlimited entries, that a maximum budget (a reasonable one) is established as limit (to permit several entries) and that the type and characteristics of the boat is agreed as consensually as possible among the participants.


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## Bermudahigh

*a long way from newport/12 metres*

when i watched the race today i thought the boats could have been from star wars. they really are incredible.


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## mstern

Given the intense, personal and vindictive legal battles that preceeded this race, and the enormous publicity and (relative) popularity of the last Challenge, I have been surprised at the lack of interest in this race. I don't know if that's because the public sees this particular race as a pissing match between two spoiled millionaires who couldn't put their own egos aside long enough to come to agreement on how to run a boat race (is my prejudice showing), or what.

In any case, it seems that both sides have made the dramatic decision that this is really a battle to the death for ability to control the future of Cup races. Berterelli sees Forumula 1 racing as his model; lots of sponsors, lots of racing all around Europe, strong central control of the product. Its less clear what Ellison's vision is for the Cup, but I get the feeling he wants to turn back; maybe not to the 12 meter days, but certainly the earlier days of the IACC boats. 

I saw a lot of good in what Berterelli wanted to do. If you're interested in the event, having it only once every four years is not enough. And having more prelim and season races allowed for better actual Cup races; the boats and crews just have more practice. However, his ham-fisted attempt to control the challenger of record (and therefore all of the challengers) was really a bit much. 

IMHO, the Deed gives the Cup holder too much leverage and power to control the next contest. How interested would you be in the NFL if next year, the Saints got to pick where each game would be held, and what the rules would be?


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## PCP

mstern said:


> Given the intense, personal and vindictive legal battles that preceeded this race, and the enormous publicity and (relative) popularity of the last Challenge, I have been surprised at the lack of interest in this race. I don't know if that's because the public sees this particular race as a pissing match between two spoiled millionaires who couldn't put their own egos aside long enough to come to agreement on how to run a boat race (is my prejudice showing), or what.
> 
> In any case, it seems that both sides have made the dramatic decision that this is really a battle to the death for ability to control the future of Cup races. Berterelli sees Forumula 1 racing as his model; lots of sponsors, lots of racing all around Europe, strong central control of the product. ..
> 
> I saw a lot of good in what Berterelli wanted to do. If you're interested in the event, having it only once every four years is not enough. And having more prelim and season races allowed for better actual Cup races; the boats and crews just have more practice. However, his ham-fisted attempt to control the challenger of record (and therefore all of the challengers) was really a bit much.


I agree. If it is not done as the F1, with lots of sponsors, lots of public interest and races everywhere (not only in Europe), the only way to support a competitive crew and a new boat for a race that happens only each 4 years...is to be a millionaire

I think that the lack of public interest in this America's Cup edition (that strongly contrasts with the huge public interest of the last edition) as to do with the public perception that this edition is not a world sport event (like the last one), but simply a pissing contest between two spoiled millionaires.

Regards

Paulo


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## WanderingStar

I do like the technological innovations though. While it makes the racing occasionally one-sided, eventually these things filter down to us. Only millionaires can afford to play, but we all can afford to watch. Kind of like the NFL, no? I wouldn't want to see one-designs. There's plenty of that kind of racing.


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## BobOK

From what I have read about the history, it has always been about very rich men from one land challenging very rich men from another land to see who has the fastest boat. Unfortunately what we want to see has nothing to do with what the very stinking rich want to do. The America's Cup has brought much in the form of technology over the century and a half. We definitely saw that today. Should it be similiar to Formula One? Personally, I don't think so. We have several other venues that give us that. The America's Cup wouldn't have the prestige it carries if it was common. It is about "I have the Cup and you had better have deep pockets to build a boat that can take the this Cup from my hands."
I'm not saying it is right, but from what I see, that is the way it is. 

Bob


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## downeast450

The DOG be damned! The arrogant egomaniac wind powered machine championships are on! I miss the old races, too. 

These machines are riveting to watch. The wing sail's draft control seems to open a whole new dimension for extracting power from the wind.  That thing acted like two sails, each one complimenting the other. I would like to know how the adjustments were made (both the why and the how) to the draft at each of the sail's 9 levels. The control they have with the wing sail, the mast and the traveler could all be adjusted by a computer. Will all be adjusted by a computer that is reading optimal heel angle and course heading. Gosh! The backpack wireless heads-up instrument package will be the new standard for serious racing. No more gauges? Your gauges will be displayed "in" your sun glasses! Ha!

My concerns about using Dynex Dux are behind me! Ha!

I will happily stick with my chart plotter and dacron sails but it is interesting to watch the evolution fostered by these two rich boys.

Sunday should provide another opportunity to watch the new weapon!

Down


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## paulk

*Branching out*



sailingdog said:


> Personally, I think that it would be much more exciting to have the teams on identically outfitted boats...and let the best sailor/helmsman/tactician/navigator win, rather than it being a series of lawsuits followed by really advanced but rather single purpose boats.
> 
> I know that isn't what the Deed says...but it sure would be more interesting to watch than the really unfair race that just happened, where one competitor was basically so outclassed it isn't even funny.


Interesting that the NYYC has essentially just done this with their International Invitational, sailed last summer in 19 Swan 42's off Newport, RI. They've now invited 20-some more clubs to trials which will be sailed in Sonars during 2010. The top 3 crews will be invited to join the 2011 Invitational in the Swan 42's. No professional crews; identical new sails, identical rig setups. Should be fun, but very different from the AC.


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## sneuman

BobOK said:


> From what I have read about the history, it has always been about very rich men from one land challenging very rich men from another land to see who has the fastest boat. Unfortunately what we want to see has nothing to do with what the very stinking rich want to do. The America's Cup has brought much in the form of technology over the century and a half. We definitely saw that today. Should it be similar to Formula One? Personally, I don't think so. We have several other venues that give us that. The America's Cup wouldn't have the prestige it carries if it was common. It is about "I have the Cup and you had better have deep pockets to build a boat that can take the this Cup from my hands."
> I'm not saying it is right, but from what I see, that is the way it is.
> 
> Bob


I agree, if turning it into F1 is the answer, then PHRF racing around the beer cans would already be NASCAR. It's not. We have to face up to the fact that this sport, at least as a spectator event, has limited appeal. Even a lot of avid sailors don't have much interest in _watching._ The population for spectators is, I believe, almost exclusively limited to those people who already sail. Now, imagine if basketball's potential audience was limited to only those who play basketball - now add that far more people play basketball (I'm guessing here) than sail.

Having said that, when run as a fair "friendly competition among nations" that comes up every few years, it carries some prestige. In this year's race, everything that could be done has been done, it seems, to take an event of questionable spectator value and move it into the clam shells boring category: the legal battle, the lack of a challenger series, the boats tack like wholly mammoths, they only sail in ideal conditions, no spinnakers, no grinders, etc. So, the boats themselves are spectacular, yes, but Goethe said even the most beautiful sunset becomes boring after 5 minutes. Spectacular or not, the boats themselves are not going to sustain the event once the 'wow' factor has worn off (and hasn't that already happened in the first race?).


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## sailingdog

I'm willing to be the races are less lopsided than the current AC competition appears to be. Alinghi appears to be very badly outclassed by BOR 90.



paulk said:


> Interesting that the NYYC has essentially just done this with their International Invitational, sailed last summer in 19 Swan 42's off Newport, RI. They've now invited 20-some more clubs to trials which will be sailed in Sonars during 2010. The top 3 crews will be invited to join the 2011 Invitational in the Swan 42's. No professional crews; identical new sails, identical rig setups. Should be fun, but very different from the AC.


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## SailingStNick

I was able to stream the video and connect to my flat screen. Not a bad picture if you can get over the buffering issues.


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## smackdaddy

All in all, I think it was a very interesting spectacle, with the following observations:

1. Bertarelli acknowledged in the post-loss interview what everyone knows - that he essentially killed the AC by pushing away any real public interest, and, in turn, all the sponsors. He said he hoped that BOR would do better. It was really sad watching what used to be an intensely prestigious event play as a small, boring side show.

2. Larry-O specifically mentioned that juries, judges, umpires, etc. will all be independent going forward. He also mentioned that they might return to the older mono-hull classes. We witnessed the utter destruction caused by one man's ego. That man lost - which was sweet revenge. Yet, we also know of the winner's ego. Hopefully the experience will make the latter put the cup above his own ego for a change.

3. Even pros screw up their starts - repeatedly. Loved it.

4. What effect does 5-6 guys laying on the ama of a 90' multi with a 200'+ mast REALLY have? Aren't we a bit beyond "rail meat" ballast at this point? I think it was more for show than anything else....which leads us to...

5. The mere scale of these boats completely removed the human element. As viewers, all we saw were "Star Wars" uniformed dudes hanging out in their ama pods and enjoying the ride. They were doing nothing. The stars were the boats - people didn't matter. Go back to 1 & 2 to see the irony in this.

6. The technology was astounding. One of the most interesting aspects of this was the issue of the committee/umpire boats. I'm guessing these were 25'-30' twin-ob powerboats. _And they were having a hard time keeping up with these sailboats!!!_ This, coupled with the fact that part of the reason they were calling off races was that these smaller boats couldn't handle the rougher water, shows that the speed of these boats changed everything. The old rules no longer apply. Everything will have to be re-thought. That's cool.

7. The technology was an almost fatal hindrance. Disregarding all the legal crap that surrounded this technology, I heard Larry-O talking about having to bash through seas that were "well over a meter". Seriously? Yes the technology is amazing, but the fragility of these boats is silly. This factor lent to a very, very boring race in my opinion. Yes, the speed was exhilarating, but just watching big ass multis fly a hull or two for 40 miles over glassy seas ain't that awesome. And the lame announcers can be as breathless as they like, but it doesn't make it any more fun to watch.

My personal conclusions were these:

1. The AC needs to remain true to its roots. And it sounds like that's what Larry wants to do with it. I think that will help immeasurably - and return the AC to its rightful place....maybe...

2. What we saw this go round was a "moon shot" competition. It was essentially a shootout between NASA and the Russian Federal Space Agency, trotting out their best engineering and material sciences efforts for a super speed run. And that in itself was amazing - but it wasn't the AC. There should be a new competition for this - set up just like this year's AC - where two of the most technologically advanced yachts in the world battle for supremacy. This is not "sailing" - this is a battle of intelligence and technology. And it is great! It's just not the AC....maybe...

The reason I say maybe to both of the above conclusions is that the real answer is exceedingly complex. Unfortunately for the future of AC, I don't think the world is interested anymore in match racing. Period. Yes, it will be a fun spectacle to watch every once in a while - but it's time for something different. Taking the racing back to the old school style of AC will satisfy the purists - but it will not make the AC more successful unless the public really wants to follow it. I just don't see that happening.

So, the question is, was what we just witnessed the potential salvation of the AC if the AC allows itself to radically change with the times?


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## zz4gta

My impressions, 

1. EB needed to get off the wheel.
2. The boats are awesome and yet stupid, this was not a match race. Real match racing is actually exciting. 
3. The Cup needs to be kept in the country (YC) who won it. No matter where that is. 
4. Smaller boats will be in AC 34, and according to Larry, it will be publisized. If they can get a marketing team together and push this, open it to sponsors, show other sailing to ramp up interest, then AC 34 will be great. It went virtually unnoticed in the US media. Truely a sad fact considering the US won it back. 
5. If this was a competition between countries instead of 2 rich guys, then more people (sponsors) would be interested in supporting their 'home team'.


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## imiloa

*Right on Smack!*

Smack, I think you hit the nail on the head with your comments. In other threads sailors have expressed their concern and confusion over why sailing is of less and less interest to the general public (especially in the US) and I think this latest AC is a great example why. For many of the reasons Smack mentioned we sailors can't even identify with what was going on in Valencia let alone non-sailors. Although I agree the technology and scale was amazing as a sporting event it was a dismal failure and barely resembled sailing as most of us know it. There was no human element in it at all. The AC is an opportunity to get sailors to say "I can do that!" and would be sailors to say, "I'd like to do that!" Maybe next time.


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## dongreerps

If AC is to be interesting thinking outside the box might be helpful. As a start, here are some suggestions:

Every boat must transmit every piece of data anyone on board all of the racers can see at anytime during the race. Recievers must of course be banned on the racers. (Wouldn't you love to have seen the backpack data the BMW/Oracle helmsman was looking at?)

Every member of every crew must wear an open mike at all times from first leaving the dock to finish line. (I don't need to hear the dispair of the losers)
Talk among the crews has to be more interesting than the commentary from this last series.

A member of both syndicates must be available on the press boat accompanying the racers.

That representative must disclose to the press boat every change made to his teams boat since the last race at the time of the prepratory signal. (Remember no recievers on board the racers)

The series will be a series of races - at least 4 out of 7. Perhaps more. This would allow s throwout race or so.

Races will start at a set time on a set day. No cancellations for weather. This would replace the requirement to reach the race site on the boats own bottom. It would force designers to build real boats, not playthings. This would also make broadcasting the races more feasible. It would also produce some interesting tactical decisions. Might even make for some broken boats. We all know that one of the things which draws spectators to NASCAR racing is the hope of seeing a wreck. 

All (90%) (80%) crew must be from the country of the boats homeport.

The challenging yacht club must have a racing fleet of some sort or another.

The challenging boat can be no larger than the largest boat of the challenging YC which is regularly sailed. Not necessarily raced, just sailed.

At least one leg of each race must be helmed by the senior executive of the the organization owning each boat.

I know, crazy thoughts that will never happen, but maybe some will stimulate to some productive thoughts. Every one of the above would be fun though. It was much more fun when the "mouth of the south" was racing, and would have been really fun to have had an open mike on him.


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## downeast450

The next step for this "Science Fair", disguised as sailboat racing, is to leave the crews ashore! All the sailing adjustments to those boats are based on the information delivered to the crew by sensors which is translatable into algorithms. The "grinders" are history. With a little engineering on how to tack the head sail, if one is useful at all using the next iteration of the wing sail, there won't be any need to be on the vessel. I think Smack's idea of a huge regatta will have to become a virtual race, too!

Perhaps a program like John Letcher's, Multisurf, can evaluate the designs and award the winner based on their projected quality. It sure would be simpler to just send the winner an e-mail!

I want a sail that can do the camber fandago that that wing sail does.

Down


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## smackdaddy

downeast450 said:


> I think Smack's idea of a huge regatta will have to become a virtual race, too!


Never!!!!

The only thing "virtual" in the Global Regatta are the stats and course comparisons. The courses will be real, the boats real, the sailors real. As a matter of fact, you can't get any more real than the GR - because we'll all be racing our own boats!

Anyway, very few of us are billionaires who can fund 90-footers. And we like rum.


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## downeast450

Smack I am in! I have my course all picked out. all I need now is my new wing sail!, ummm....new head stay, new hot pipe and water lift muffler, new keel bolts, new radar, new battery switch, new propeller and a few little things. Will there be handicaps for special gear? How will wind speed and sea conditions factor in? Will there be minimums and maximums? I want a little longer course than your original post suggests, something more along the lines of 14 miles for each leg. We have a special handicap condition along this part of the Eastie's coast, lobster pot bouys. You can't sail a plotted course here with a fin keel. There are uncountable snags floating about. At least they are painted bright colors. 

When you get the DOG sorted out I will have my legal team look at it.

Down


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## sneuman

dongreerps said:


> Races will start at a set time on a set day. No cancellations for weather. This would replace the requirement to reach the race site on the boats own bottom. It would force designers to build real boats, not playthings. This would also make broadcasting the races more feasible. It would also produce some interesting tactical decisions. Might even make for some broken boats. We all know that one of the things which draws spectators to NASCAR racing is the hope of seeing a wreck.


A sine qua non, IMHO. Not only will it satisfy the sailors who want to see real races in real boats, but it will make the whole thing a lot more marketable. If you KNOW the race will start on time, you can actually promote it.


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## smackdaddy

downeast450 said:


> Smack I am in! I have my course all picked out. all I need now is my new wing sail!, ummm....new head stay, new hot pipe and water lift muffler, new keel bolts, new radar, new battery switch, new propeller and a few little things. Will there be handicaps for special gear? How will wind speed and sea conditions factor in? Will there be minimums and maximums? I want a little longer course than your original post suggests, something more along the lines of 14 miles for each leg. We have a special handicap condition along this part of the Eastie's coast, lobster pot bouys. You can't sail a plotted course here with a fin keel. There are uncountable snags floating about. At least they are painted bright colors.
> 
> When you get the DOG sorted out I will have my legal team look at it.
> 
> Down


Jeez you're needy.

You need to get me a course for your area dude!


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## PCP

smackdaddy said:


> ... This is not "sailing" - this is a battle of intelligence and technology. And it is great! It's just not the AC....maybe...
> 
> ..Unfortunately for the future of AC, I don't think the world is interested anymore in match racing. Period. Yes, it will be a fun spectacle to watch every once in a while - but it's time for something different. Taking the racing back to the old school style of AC will satisfy the purists - but it will not make the AC more successful unless the public really wants to follow it. I just don't see that happening.
> 
> So, the question is, was what we just witnessed the potential salvation of the AC if the AC allows itself to radically change with the times?


You do you say that the world is not interested in top class match racing?

The last previous edition of America's Cup was a huge public success and that was pure match racing. This one was a complete disaster, in what regards public interest. I believe that the conclusion is that Public is interested in top class match racing and are not interested in "batles of inteligence and technology", even with very spectacular boats.

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

downeast450 said:


> The next step for this "Science Fair", disguised as sailboat racing, is to leave the crews ashore! All the sailing adjustments to those boats are based on the information delivered to the crew by sensors which is translatable into algorithms. The "grinders" are history. With a little engineering on how to tack the head sail, if one is useful at all using the next iteration of the wing sail, there won't be any need to be on the vessel. I think Smack's idea of a huge regatta will have to become a virtual race, too!
> 
> Perhaps a program like John Letcher's, Multisurf, can evaluate the designs and award the winner based on their projected quality. It sure would be simpler to just send the winner an e-mail!
> 
> I want a sail that can do the camber fandago that that wing sail does.
> 
> Down


Down, do you read French

I am just kidding, but you will be glad to know that a French sailor has written, (on a French blog about the AC) exactly the same thing you have said, almost word by word, including the evaluation of the boat performance through a computer program. 
I agree with both. 
This AC was not about sailing (Sport) but a boat design competition, and a very expensive one.

Regards

Paulo


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## smackdaddy

PCP said:


> You do you say that the world is not interested in top class match racing?
> 
> The last previous edition of America's Cup was a huge public success and that was pure match racing. This one was a complete disaster, in what regards public interest. I believe that the conclusion is that Public is interested in top class match racing and are not interested in "batles of inteligence and technology", even with very spectacular boats.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


You may be right Paulo. But my sense is that it's not the match racing itself that drew the crowds of the past - but the nationalistic nature of the race, which has greatly diminished with the current multi-national teams.

I think what killed this AC more than anything was the legal wrangling and hubris of EB - not the technology aspect of it. LarryE mentioned that the viewership of the actual races was, in his words, significant.

So, my honest take on the AC is that it has one of two options - take it back to the strict nation-vs-nation battle focusing on a "One-Design" approach to the boats (like Nascar/F1), or fully commit to making the AC a showcase for the best sailing technology in the world with no limits on design or budget.

Now, let's say that they went with the latter approach, AND they ensured that all entries and teams were nation-based (not private or syndicates)...would that draw more of an audience?

Olympics anyone?


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## PCP

sneuman said:


> I agree, if turning it into F1 is the answer, then PHRF racing around the beer cans would already be NASCAR. It's not. We have to face up to the fact that this sport, at least as a spectator event, has limited appeal. Even a lot of avid sailors don't have much interest in _watching._ The population for spectators is, I believe, almost exclusively limited to those people who already sail.


Take a looK:

Vendée Globe

All that people....and they are not even looking at a race, just the awards distribution.

I believe Sailing has a much bigger audience in Europe and I believe in Australia and New Zealand. 


When I talk about F1 I mean the best world professional match sailors on a regatta, with spectacular and technologicaly advanced boats. It would happen, sooner or later, it can be de AC, or another series. 

If it is the AC, it will remain one of the top world sailing events, if not, it will probably lose importance, transforming itself on a kind of sailing curiosity.


Regards


Paulo


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## smackdaddy

Paulo - I'm totally with you on the Vendee. The Vendee and the VOR are, in my opinion, the future of the sport (not the AC). They are worlds more exciting than any kind of match racing could ever be. And I think they have the kind of excitement and appeal that the world craves.

If these 2 races are marketed correctly - they stand to grow tremendously.

A cumulative global television audience of 2 billion can't be wrong.


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## PCP

smackdaddy said:


> ....
> So, my honest take on the AC is that it has one of two options - take it back to the strict nation-vs-nation battle focusing on a "One-Design" approach to the boats (like Nascar/F1), or fully commit to making the AC a showcase for the best sailing technology *in the world with no limits on design or budget.*
> 
> Now, let's say that they went with the latter approach, AND they ensured that all entries and teams were nation-based (not private or syndicates)...would that draw more of an audience?
> 
> Olympics anyone?


That's not a sailing competition, that's a boat design competition. There is not a shred of sport on it. The winner would be the country that put's more money on it and buys the best technicians and scientists. It was what happened on this edition. The Oracle/BMW was a lot more expensive than Alinghy (50% more) and invested in a lot more resources (the development of the wing, for instance) . 

Who is going to pay for that? Olympics...where the one that has more money wins? 

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

smackdaddy said:


> Paulo - I'm totally with you on the Vendee. The Vendee and the VOR are, in my opinion, the future of the sport (not the AC). They are worlds more exciting than any kind of match racing could ever be. And I think they have the kind of excitement and appeal that the world craves.
> 
> If these 2 races are marketed correctly - they stand to grow tremendously.
> 
> A cumulative global television audience of 2 billion can't be wrong.


Do you know what those races have in common: The best professional ocean racers in each category (solo and crew) and spectacular boats, built under a rule that permits them to be competitive .
I disagree with you about match racing. It can be as spectacular as ocean racing and the recipe is the same: Spectacular boats built under a rule that make them competitive and the best professional match racers.
Take a look:


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## smackdaddy

PCP said:


> Do you know what those races have in common: The best professional ocean racers in each category (solo and crew) and spectacular boats, built under a rule that permits them to be competitive .<O</O
> I disagree with you about match racing. It can be as spectacular as ocean racing and the recipe is the same: Spectacular boats built under a rule that make them competitive and the best professional match racers.<O></O>
> Take a look:<O></O>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> <O></O>


That video is definitely more exciting than 33 was. But, at least to me, it's not anywhere near as exciting as the Vendee or VOR racing.

Obviously I'm from the US - so my viewpoint is admittedly limited to that market (where NFL, NASCAR, and UFC rule). And I have a hunch that the AC may be one of those sports like cricket that enjoys a very large international audience - but is not that appealing to the broader US markets.

Nonetheless, it will be interesting to see what happens with AC34 now that it is coming back to the US. Who knows, maybe we'll start liking cricket.


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## PCP

smackdaddy said:


> Obviously I'm from the US - so my viewpoint is admittedly limited to that market (where NFL, NASCAR, and UFC rule).


The difference is important. In the US the several car championships don't have an hierarchy. The best pilots are on several series. Europeans also have different series, but *ALL the best pilots are in F1 *and all the young pilots in all series dream to be on F1.

Old pilots from F1 when they are aging retire on other series, being competitive on those and some, like Fitipaldi or Mansell go to the US and they still remain winners on the American series, for many years.

The best American pilots sometimes go to F1, and, with the exception of Mario Andretti, they turn out to be just average, not winners.

F1 is more about drivers than cars (and of course, they deserve the best cars). The best in the world are there. That's one of the things I meant when I was talking about F1, as a model for America's Cup (the best professional sailors).



smackdaddy said:


> Nonetheless, it will be interesting to see what happens with AC34 now that it is coming back to the US. .


I am not so sure about that. As you have said Americans are not interested in sailing or in the AC like the Europeans and if you don't have a large public you don't have a way of paying the event, unless a millionaire is willing to throw money away, and a lot of it.

The other aspect I was having F1 as a model for the AC is the sponsorship that is connected with payed publicity and the television rights. The F1 is a profitable business, it pays itself and gives a profit. For that you need a big audience.

That's the same with the AC and if they cannot find a large audience in the US that supports the event, than the probability is that the next AC will be in Europe, where that audience is located. I am not the one that is talking about it:

"While GGYC indicated it wants to hold the next America's Cup in three years, the venue is up in the air, with *Ellison mentioning Valencia; San Francisco and Newport, R.I., and Coutts pushing Cascais, Portugal*.

"You need a lot of support from the venue," Ellison said, adding that San Francisco has "a crowded waterfront, and we'd have to develop bases for a lot of teams."
Bajurin and present GGYC commodore Marcus Young, who watched the races in Valencia, said that although San Francisco is a magnificent place to sail, they weren't sure the city could match what was done at Valencia and Auckland, New Zealand, where rundown commercial fishing wharfs were transformed into sparkling America's Cup harbors.

"Our waterfront has seen better days, and there would be a lot of regulatory hurdles" to overcome, Bajurin said, adding that the task was made more difficult because there probably will be only three years to get ready."

Regards

Paulo


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## AE28

One of the things Americans have trouble with, myself included, is not knowing whether the show's on, or not.
I think if the President of the United States was giving a televised press conference that ran into the scheduled start time for a major sporting event, s/he better move over.
Paul


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## KeelHaulin

PCP said:


> "You need a lot of support from the venue," Ellison said, adding that San Francisco has "a crowded waterfront, and we'd have to develop bases for a lot of teams."
> Bajurin and present GGYC commodore Marcus Young, who watched the races in Valencia, said that although San Francisco is a magnificent place to sail, they weren't sure the city could match what was done at Valencia and Auckland, New Zealand, where rundown commercial fishing wharfs were transformed into sparkling America's Cup harbors.


The reasons it won't come to San Francisco are the following:

The venue is not big enough. The navigable water of SF Bay is not large enough to run the event.

The ocean off the coast of SF is lumpy and and winds are unpredictable. So holding the event outside the gate would be impractical. Winter is too rough; summer is light/variable with confused light swell.

The SF Bay Area is not going to pony up hundreds of millions to build fancy venue infrastructure that will only be used once every 3 years. The value of the developed land is too high; and we won't break new ground to build harbors and dredge because of the environmental restrictions on doing these things.

With all of this said; I don't think Ellison will send the AC match back to Valencia. It will be held somewhere in US waters; probably either San Diego where his syndicate is centered or in the LA basin. There is a huge advantage to having the "home field" and he won't want to give that up.


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## smackdaddy

lporcano said:


> The thing that could make future AC coverage attractive to a wider audience in the US is horsepower, which in sailing comes in the form of wind. That is why the idea of Newport as the venue is not the most appealing to me. Newport is going to provide light fluky winds, which might make for a great tactical match, but will not be the type of race that pulls in new fans. The VOR coverage was edited to give you glimpses of the boats while they are flying on a reach in big seas and big wind. You can get the same thing in a short race in the right venue. Freemantle was like that, and could have caught on more if it was not for the time difference.


You know, you may be onto something here. If the AC was staged in more open ocean where rougher seas were part of the element - you'd have something that would generate far more interest than what most perceive as quaint "sailboat races around bags in the bay".

They've GOT to give it some edge like the VOR and Vendee. This would also ensure seaworthiness and toughness was part of the boat design...as it well should be. Yet, unlike the VOR, it wouldn't take 9 months to see who the winner is.

Somebody get me Larry Ellison on the phone.


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## GeorgeB

I still say that San Francisco should be the next venue for the Cup. If the criticism is "the winds are unpredictable" and the ocean is "lumpy", then all the other venues mentioned here would be eliminated a long time ago. You guys might not be old enough to remember, but the big complaint about Newport was the generally light and inconsistent winds. Valencia <ST1certainly didn't live up to the hype either. And please - San Diego</ST1/ LA? You guys have to wait a long time before a Santa Anna starts blowing!

12 Meter and <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com








<ST1







<ST1







<ST1America's </st1:country-region>Cup formula boats have successfully raced in the Bay before. Back when the Cup was in Perth, we had three syndicates working up in the Bay at the same time (Chicago's Heart of America, Blackaller's Saint Francis, and Canada1. Heck, all three of them raced together in the Oakland Estuary. ). I have seen both Larry and Ernesto's match racing and then the Moet Cup on the Bay and the viewing is fantastic from all around. And You would not have to watch it on T.V. like in <st1:country-region w:st="on"><ST1Valencia.</st1:country-region>
<st1:country-region w:st="on"></st1:country-region>
<st1:country-region w:st="on"></st1:country-region>The City already owns Treasure Island and 12 meter boats have sailed out of there in the past. The closed down Alameda NAS could hold fifty syndicates and still have room left over. If the NAS basin was big enough for a couple of nuclear aircraft carriers and their escort ships, I'm sure they could find room for twenty boats. When Mari Chi V ran over the boat in Antigua, the only yacht center that could accommodate her repair was KKMI here in the Bay.

Paulo, the big screen TV in Valencia looks impressive until you realize that more than twice as many people watched last week's Mavericks Surf Contest on the Jumbo Tron at AT&T Park, and by the way, was at $25 per pop!










"Lumpy" conditions outside the Golden Gate. 17 foot breakers inside the Bonita Channel (The safe way to go around the Potato Patch). Picture taken last Sunday.


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## AE28

smack...

_You know, you may be onto something here. If the AC was staged in more open ocean where rougher seas were part of the element - you'd have something that would generate far more interest than what most perceive as quaint "sailboat races around bags in the bay"._

Hope they get a new referee (or whatever the guy's title was that called the race because of the 1.3m sea state)!!!

Paul


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## smackdaddy

No kidding AE. That was one of the main things that made this race a bit of a joke in terms of real sailing. Very fast boats, yes, but far too fragile.

I remember LE talking about the "rough conditions" that had them concerned with waves that were "well over a meter".

Larry, dude, that sounds like the Tin Can cat! 

Harden The Boat Up!


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## daydreamer92

Caught some snippets of this race (such as it was) via YouTube.

People were right. There were some (briefly) interesting boats but even these highlights were about as riveting to watch as a piece of ice slowly melting in my driveway.

I thought that for a while, sailing had done a good job of making it interesting to watch the sport -- for a while on Speedvision, they'd show the 18ft skiffs in Australia, that was interesting -- but if this is what racing becomes, well, hit the snooze button for ever making it something that anyone other than the owners get invested in. 

Sailing is definitely one of those sports where you kinda have to be there, as in on the boat, to be really interesting. It's especially slow moving to a viewer if there's no actual contest and no reference to what they are seeing on TV. The Indy 500 is about cars driving around in an oval, but it is interesting to viewers because there are many cars all together going around in an oval. One car going around in an oval just doesn't do it. Neither would two really, unless they were close together.

The Americas Cup might just be at the point where it's not *supposed* to be interesting other than to the people involved or die hard fans of those involved. I don't know that the sport of sailing can use the cup as an ad to the everyman to take up sailing as a hobby (new blood!) anyway. 

I hope "big time" racing as a whole doesn't go this way because while it's really interesting that a wing can make sailboat haul ass, it doesn't really appeal to any sailboat lover in me. All I can do is hope there remain some races that really are interesting to watch and that someone will find a way to get them on TV.


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## PCP

GeorgeB said:


> I still say that San Francisco should be the next venue for the Cup. ...
> 
> Paulo, the big screen TV in Valencia looks impressive until you realize that more than twice as many people watched last week's Mavericks Surf Contest on the Jumbo Tron at AT&T Park, and by the way, was at $25 per pop!


Perhaps you have misunderstood me. That was precisely my point: No public interest on this America's cup edition. The photos of Valencia's headquarter that I have posted on this thread:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gener...974-bmw-oracle-wins-race-1-if-you-care-5.html

were accompanied by the following comment:

"The first one is taken at 10.15, 15 minutes after the hour set for the beginning of the race. As you can see there is almost nobody in the place where the race is going to be transmitted live on a giant screen. The contrast with the last edition is amazing. From the several km of waterfront that were occupied by the last edition, remains only activity on a single building. 
The next two photos show the ambiance while the race was on. It was a lovely day, full of sun and Valencia is a big city but even so the Public is a small fraction of the one that was there on the last edition...and the enthusiasm.... is not present."

Regarding the place, I will quote Jim Rosar comment on this article (I agree with him):

"The America's Cup competition may return to Rhode Island. According to the Projo, the possibility of the sailing tournament coming to the Rhode Island Sound became likelier after software billionaire Larry Ellison, the most recent Cup winner, mentioned Newport as a possible location for the competition in 2013. Newport has hosted the contest twelve times in the past, most recently in 1983, when Australia took home the big prize."

Jim Rosar:
"Who Cares!!!! Last 33 races not carried anywhere , Live stream on ESPN360 only certain cable internet providers. not mine, Nothing in main stream news ,CNN did not care ,Bad Timing, at same time as Olympics.
Cup need a media lobbist. Might as well run Race in Siberia in Winter."

News.WBRU | America's Cup Coming Home to Rhode Island?

This is the real problem, not the place where it is going to happen. It better take place in a way and in a location that permits the sponsoring *needed to make it a major world sports event*.

Take a look at this article and at these figures:

"Billionaires Larry Ellison and Ernesto Bertarelli have turned an America's Cup boom into bust.

A 30-month wrangle over rules canceled a 19-team qualifying event, scared off sponsors like Banco Santander SA, UBS AG and Nestle SA and shrank the organizing budget to *8 million euros* ($11.1 million) from a record *230 million euros in 2007*, organizers said.

The best-of-three regatta in Valencia, Spain, starts at 10:06 a.m. local time, or 4:06 a.m. in New York. The event begins the day after the Super Bowl, and just before the Winter Olympics in Vancouver. International interest has declined so much that organizers gave away the television rights, officials of Bertarelli's Alinghi team said.
&#8230;&#8230;.
*The economic impact of the 159-year-old event, sailing's oldest competition, is less than 10 percent of the $7 billion last time*, according to Tom Cannon, a sports business professor at the U.K.'s Liverpool University. There are no infrastructure benefits and most of the about-$500 million spent will be on the two competing boats, Cannon said.
&#8230;&#8230;.
Either way, it's the first time there hasn't been a qualifying contest since 1988, ostracizing challengers from countries including South Africa, Italy and New Zealand that competed last time. The 2007 event made a profit of 66 million euros shared between 12 teams. For this year, Geneva-based Alinghi ceded management of the commercial rights to Valencia's city hall and regional government.

*"The America's Cup has lost the sense of national importance," Cannon said. "From being one of the four or five biggest sports events, it's become frankly parochial."*

Americaâ€™s Cup Sinks as Bertarelli-Ellison Fight Sours Santander - Bloomberg.com

Regards

Paulo


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## KeelHaulin

GeorgeB said:


> I still say that San Francisco should be the next venue for the Cup. If the criticism is "the winds are unpredictable" and the ocean is "lumpy", then all the other venues mentioned here would be eliminated a long time ago. You guys might not be old enough to remember, but the big complaint about Newport was the generally light and inconsistent winds. Valencia <st1>certainly didn't live up to the hype either. And please - San Diego</st1>/ LA? You guys have to wait a long time before a Santa Anna starts blowing!
> 
> 12 Meter and <st1:city w:st="[/IMG]<ST1
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> <ST1
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> <ST1
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> America's </st1:country-region>Cup formula boats have successfully raced in the Bay before. Back when the Cup was in Perth, we had three syndicates working up in the Bay at the same time (Chicago's Heart of America, Blackaller's Saint Francis, and Canada1. Heck, all three of them raced together in the Oakland Estuary. ). I have seen both Larry and Ernesto's match racing and then the Moet Cup on the Bay and the viewing is fantastic from all around. And You would not have to watch it on T.V. like in <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1>Valencia.</st1></st1:country-region></st1:city></st1:city>
> <st1:country-region w:st="on"></st1:country-region>
> <st1:country-region w:st="on"></st1:country-region>The City already owns Treasure Island and 12 meter boats have sailed out of there in the past. The closed down Alameda NAS could hold fifty syndicates and still have room left over. If the NAS basin was big enough for a couple of nuclear aircraft carriers and their escort ships, I'm sure they could find room for twenty boats. When Mari Chi V ran over the boat in Antigua, the only yacht center that could accommodate her repair was KKMI here in the Bay.
> 
> "Lumpy" conditions outside the Golden Gate. 17 foot breakers inside the Bonita Channel (The safe way to go around the Potato Patch). Picture taken last Sunday.


I don't discount any of this; it's a great place to sail (yes I own a boat and live here). But it's not an ideal place for an AC course; and I think this is where it could be eliminated from consideration. I don't know where they would find a stretch of water 20 miles by 10 miles with adequate depth for an upwind/downwind course on the bay; do you? What about current? Is Ellison prepared to put the AC at risk over correctly reading the tidelines? Do you think they would want to hold this race 10 miles offshore and the need to go across the SF bar with light racing hulls just to prepare for a race?

Clipper Cove would need to be dredged at the entrance to make it a useful venue. NAS Alameda would need refurb, but I agree it could be done (but who's gonna pay for it?). There are adequate botyard facilities here; but I don't think that would be the major issue. It seems that the AC guys prefer flat water and consistent light wind (hard to find). We don't have those conditions here most of the year.

Don't get me wrong; I would LOVE to see the AC come to SF. I would like to see AC boats compete in 30kts of wind! I just don't believe it will happen.


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## CalypsoP35

*Quit Whinning!!! It's not your money that was spent*

Everybody,....QUIT WHINNING!!!!!  This was not a true AC regatta. It was a "Deed of Gift" challenge. And I thought it was fascinating. I watched both races almost in their entirety on ESPN360. Am I glutton for punishment? YES. Do I want the next AC to be like this. NO. But that doesn't mean I didn't think it was pretty spetacular to see two $100 million boats going at it to see who had the fastest boat. My biggest complaint was the wind and wave limits. WIMPS! This was a once in a life time thing. You'll be telling your grand kids about this one everytime there is an AC regatta. It was fascinating in my eyes, and hopefully they will go back to the type of AC regatta's they held with the 12 meters.

Here's hoping it the AC goes back to Newport RI. It was an institution there for a couple decades. OK, living in southern NE I'm probably being a little selfish, but I do remember the '80 and '83 AC's and the town was crazy. It was always one of the lead stories on the sports casts (well after the Red Sox, but definitely in front of the Patriots who were a joke of a team back then). Someone made a comment about light and fickle winds. But while there some stretches like that. Generally the winds are pretty robust and consistent out of the SW.


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## downeast450

PCP said:


> Down, do you read French
> 
> I am just kidding, but you will be glad to know that a French sailor has written, (on a French blog about the AC) exactly the same thing you have said, almost word by word, including the evaluation of the boat performance through a computer program.
> I agree with both.
> This AC was not about sailing (Sport) but a boat design competition, and a very expensive one.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Paulo,

I should be able to read French, after all the time I spent studying how, but no, I don't. I guess I was just watching the same "event" he was. I need a French immersion experience. Perhaps a year sailing on the Med.

I honestly don't think it is far fetched at all to see these wind powered platforms as remote controlled in the future. They are getting very close. Having some meat aboard for ballast is becoming a "throwback". How long will it be before the first unmanned sailboat crosses the Atlantic or sails around the world?

I enjoyed watching. I enjoy anticipating what their design advances portend for our collective sailing futures. It would be a remarkable experience to be flying 10 feet above 3 foot waves at 30 knots, moving faster than the wind. It would be more than I want to consider to be aboard when a bracing strut failed and the "boat" came apart, especially if it were me, with my family, out for a sail on a breezy summer afternoon.

One of my favorite boats is our 15 foot Marshall catboat. Its big sail and barn door rudder make it possible to feel the boat "hunt" for the sweet spot when beating into 12 knots of breeze. It can get a little wet, depending on the fetch, but the boat finds the threads of the puffs and responds continuously to their shifts. I can feel it sailing! It is amazing and wonderful. It is why I go out and play in the wind. I used to enjoy listening to the radio before TV, too. I am so lucky! ha!

That is not to say I don't enjoy the information and adjustments we have on our Islander. Knowing the wind speed and the apparent wind are very helpful. I like having a chart plotter, depth sounder, VHF, radar and soon AIS. The coastal weather information my XM radio delivers is a comfort, too.

The advance I observed during this AC that I see myself taking advantage of is soft standing rigging. I had already made that jump in my planning but watching the rigging on these monsters ended any doubts. "Softie" has taken on a whole new meaning for me.

Your posts on the AC have been enjoyable, Thanks.

Down


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## PCP

smackdaddy said:


> Paulo - I'm totally with you on the Vendee. The Vendee and the VOR are, in my opinion, the future of the sport (not the AC). They are worlds more exciting than any kind of match racing could ever be. And I think they have the kind of excitement and appeal that the world craves.
> 
> If these 2 races are marketed correctly - they stand to grow tremendously.
> 
> A cumulative global television audience of 2 billion can't be wrong.
> 
> .......................................................................................
> 
> You know, you may be onto something here. If the AC was staged in more open ocean where rougher seas were part of the element - you'd have something that would generate far more interest than what most perceive as quaint "sailboat races around bags in the bay".
> 
> They've GOT to give it some edge like the VOR and Vendee. This would also ensure seaworthiness and toughness was part of the boat design...as it well should be. Yet, unlike the VOR, it wouldn't take 9 months to see who the winner is.​​




well, it is not the AC, but both boats (Alinghy and BMW/Oracle) can compete on the *RACE* against the best and fastest boats. The *RACE* has very few rules:

You can go with any boat (unlimited).

You can go with any crew (unlimited).

You can not have any outside assistance (no food, no water, no fuel, nothing) .

You can not go out of the boat (no scales).

The first to arrive at the same point (after having circunavigated) is the winner.

Really simple. I Bet that you will like this one

Of course, they can compete on this one but they will not stand much time, without being reduced to small pieces

Sail-World.com : Bruno Peyron decides to relaunch The Race

Regards

Paulo​


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## smackdaddy

PCP,

Here's the telling quote from that article:



> I have noticed that some major brands have been looking at the possibilities offered by the Volvo Ocean Race, which I can fully understand, but this does indicate that there is simply no alternative international race for multihulls. And just to conclude, others around me have become aware of this and share this feeling and my discussions with the leading G-class skippers have led me to move things forward in this direction.


*Bottom line: The VOR is king. And multis break too easily.*

Even so, I'd watch The Race...for the carnage if nothing else.



PCP said:


> well, it is not the AC, but both boats (Alinghy and BMW/Oracle) can compete on the *RACE* against the best and fastest boats. The *RACE* has very few rules:
> 
> You can go with any boat (unlimited).
> 
> You can go with any crew (unlimited).
> 
> You can not have any outside assistance (no food, no water, no fuel, nothing) .
> 
> You can not go out of the boat (no scales).
> 
> The first to arrive at the same point (after having circunavigated) is the winner.
> 
> Really simple. I Bet that you will like this one
> 
> Of course, they can compete on this one but they will not stand much time, without being reduced to small pieces
> 
> Sail-World.com : Bruno Peyron decides to relaunch The Race
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo
> [/LEFT]


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## PCP

smackdaddy said:


> PCP,
> 
> Here's the telling quote from that article:
> 
> *Bottom line: The VOR is king. And multis break too easily.*
> 
> Even so, I'd watch The Race...for the carnage if nothing else.


It is not a multihull race it is an unlimited race. All boats can enter. If the multihulls break so easily, than certainly a monohull will win 

As we speak a big multihull is trying a circumnavigation speed record. In the last years that record had been beaten several times (solo and with a crew). The multihulls didn't break, on other hand there is quite an alarming rate of problems with fast monohulls losing their bulbs. It seems they hit whales at high speed and cannot stand the huge shock.

Racing multihulls are inherently less safe than racing monohulls, but have made a long way in what regards seaworthiness and safety.

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

downeast450 said:


> Paulo,
> ...
> Your posts on the AC have been enjoyable, Thanks.
> 
> Down


The pleasure is mine, with some excuses for my somewhat bad English&#8230;.and by the way, sometimes that makes me a little bit dense. About your first post on this thread, it seems that I have taken some time to understand your irony. You are right, motorcycles and all .

Paulo


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## sailingdog

Just wondering where you two get your ideas? 

How is a racing multihull inherently less safe than a racing monohull. A properly built multihull is a pretty solid boat. When most of the racing multihulls have issues, it is usually with them capsizing...but at least the crew usually has something to wait for rescue on.

Lots of racing monohulls have had issues in the past few years... lost keels, broken masts, etc... When a racing monohull loses its keel, what happens... the boat turtles and usually sinks, and people die. I can think of a few racing monohulls that have caused fatalities in the recent past-Moquini; Cynthia Woods; Excalibur; Coyote; etc...

I'd point out that a majority, over two-thirds by my count, of the records at the *WSSRC* are held by multihulls-not monohulls. Many of these are sailing distances and through conditions that are as difficult or more so than most racing, and they're pushing the envelope just as much any racing boat to do so.



smackdaddy said:


> *Bottom line: The VOR is king. And multis break too easily.*
> 
> Even so, I'd watch The Race...for the carnage if nothing else.





PCP said:


> It is not a multihull race it is an unlimited race. All boats can enter. If the multihulls break so easily, than certainly a monohull will win....
> Racing multihulls are inherently less safe than racing monohulls, but have made a long way in what regards seaworthiness and safety.
> <O</O
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


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## PCP

sailingdog said:


> Just wondering where you two get your ideas?
> 
> How is a racing multihull inherently less safe than a racing monohull. ... *When most of the racing multihulls have issues, it is usually with them capsizing*...but at least the crew usually has something to wait for rescue on.


Well, you have answered yourself

We are not talking about cruising multihulls, but of dedicated big ocean racing boats. Boats with a a huge rig and big sails.

Modern top pure racing ocean monohulls, boats (like Open60s), don't sink when capsized, or at least stay afloat for several days, sometimes weeks (it has happened many times).

And when the boat goes turtle, if the keel stays in place, she will not stay capsized.

YouTube - Spirit of Canada Rollover Test

On the other hand an ORMA class trimaran ( Big Ocean racers) will only need wind to be capsized. No breaking waves, just wind. A lot of it (70K), but it has already happened, on a relatively recent Transat where almost half the multihull fleet capsized. I have read the interview with one of the skippers that said they had all sails down, but that the force of the wind on the mast was enough to capsize the boat.

These are not very usual circumstances but it is usual to have capsized multihulls on an Transat, not to mention a circumnavigation. The boats are racing, pushed to the limit...and sometimes they go over the limit...and that means a capsize. And if that capsize occurs at 30k, with a good probability you will not have only a capsize, but also a broken boat.
When a monohull goes over the limit...it broaches, or go to 90º capsize and easily get back on their feet.

I get these ideas for following attentively, for many years, ocean racing at its top level (monohulls and multihulls). The simple observation of all those races show that the accidents (not only capsizes, but also broken boats) with multihulls are much more frequent, even if, as I have said, the number of those accidents on multihulls is decreasing.

Regards

Paulo


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## smackdaddy

sailingdog said:


> Just wondering where you two get your ideas?
> 
> How is a racing multihull inherently less safe than a racing monohull. *A properly built multihull is a pretty solid boat.*


Same place you get yours. 

So were Alinghi and BMWO "properly" built? Fast, yes. Solid, hardly.


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## KeelHaulin

CalypsoP35 said:


> Everybody,....QUIT WHINNING!!!!!  This was not a true AC regatta. It was a "Deed of Gift" challenge.


It most certainly was a true AC regatta... Go to the AC website and look at the history of the AC and you will see that the LV Cup format is a new race format to improve the competitiveness of the challenger.

The "Deed of Gift" is the original governing document of the America's Cup. To challenge under the rules of the Deed of Gift is an AC Regatta in the truest sense of the sport (no LV Cup series).



wikipedia said:


> From the third defense of the Cup in 1876 through the twentieth defense in 1967, there was always one challenger and one defender, although the NYYC ran a defender selection series to pick the yacht they would use in the match. Starting in 1970, interest in challenging was so high that the NYYC started allowing multiple challengers to run a selection regatta among themselves with the winner being substituted as Challenger and going on to the actual America's Cup match. From 1983 until 2007,Louis Vuitton sponsored the Louis Vuitton Cup as a prize for the winner of the challenger selection series.


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## PCP

KeelHaulin said:


> It most certainly was a true AC regatta... Go to the AC website and look at the history of the AC and you will see that the LV Cup format is a new race format to improve the competitiveness of the challenger.
> 
> Originally Posted by *wikipedia*
> _From the third defense of the Cup in 1876 through *the twentieth defense in 1967,* *there was always one challenger and one defender, although the NYYC ran a defender selection series to pick the yacht they would use in the match*. Starting in 1970, interest in challenging was so high that the NYYC started allowing multiple challengers to run a selection regatta among themselves with the winner being substituted as Challenger and going on to the actual America's Cup match. From 1983 until 2007,Louis Vuitton sponsored the Louis Vuitton Cup as a prize for the winner of the challenger selection series._


So, we are back to 67?


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## CalypsoP35

KeelHaulin said:


> It most certainly was a true AC regatta... Go to the AC website and look at the history of the AC and you will see that the LV Cup format is a new race format to improve the competitiveness of the challenger.
> 
> The "Deed of Gift" is the original governing document of the America's Cup. To challenge under the rules of the Deed of Gift is an AC Regatta in the truest sense of the sport (no LV Cup series).


Actually, I agree with KH and in fact made that point in an earlier post were I stated that the NYYC actually bastardized the AC with their 12 meter format. So yes, I stand corrected.

The point I was trying to make was that now we expect that all parties will go back to NYYC format of agreeing on parameters of the vessels for the next challenge and will likely include a regatta to determine the challenger and a regatta to determine the defender". This should put a greater emphasis on sailing accument while still putting a premium on design (however, within limits). SO STOP WHINNING!!!!!!!!:hothead

There was an article the RI govenor sent Ellison a letter requesting that they consider returning the AC to Newport. Lord knows, the RI economy could sure use it.


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## downeast450

PCP said:


> You are right, motorcycles and all .
> 
> Paulo


Thanks,

Down


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## PCP

CalypsoP35 said:


> ... all parties will go back to NYYC format of agreeing on parameters of the vessels for the next challenge and will likely include ... a regatta to determine the defender". ...


Can you explain this idea a little bit better?

The defender is the NYYC, so that regatta to determine the defender would be what? I mean what would be the contenders?

Regards

Paulo


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## CalypsoP35

PCP said:


> Can you explain this idea a little bit better?
> 
> The defender is the NYYC, so that regatta to determine the defender would be what? I mean what would be the contenders?
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


I'm not sure exactly when it started, but at least in the last few AC regatta's hosted by the NYYC. The NYYC held a regatta to pick the defender of the cup. There were usually a few boats that vied for this honor. Most if not all the boat in the defender regatta were sponsored by individuals or organizations that were not affiliated with the NYYC. (I don't know if they had to become members of NYYC or not, but I don't think so.) I think the defender regatta was open to all boats that qualified as "US" boats under the rules in place at the time.

A similar regatta was held for all the non-US boats challenging for the Cup. I believe the first challenger's regatta in this series was well before Luis Vitton began sponsoring the challenger's regatta.

This is how the NYYC kept the cup for so many years. It was not necessarily a NYYC funded defender that would defend the cup. In effect the NYYC was putting up the best US boat and using it to defend the NYYC's right to the cup.

I think, under the deed of gift if the challenger does not agree to the format established, the challenger of record can do what Ellison did and challenge to a no holds barred race to control the cup.

If I screwed up any of this explanation, I'm sure someone will be more than happy to tell us I scewed something up.:laugher


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## PCP

Guys, it seems that all that enjoy sail racing have participated or have looked at this thread, so I would like to share something that I believe, you will appreciate:

Go to this site and log in,

OCEAN RACING : 100% SAILING, 100% RACING !

You can have access to a lot of Ocean racing magazines.More exactly to the English version of the excellent French magazine: "Course au Large". They have very good photos and good articles.

It's free......for now

Regards

Paulo


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## smackdaddy

Cool! Thanks PCP.


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## PCP

It is not official but I have heard that the next cup will be raced on big cats (77ft) with a fixed wing.

I don't mind the cats, but I am affraid that the budget to build and race those machines would be so big that most of the teams would have no means to compete.

Regards

Paulo


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