# Do you believe in miracles???



## nolatom (Jun 29, 2005)

Oracle is about to pull even, 8 to 8, in the Cup. Lazarus wasn't as dead as oracle was, what a comeback.

Barring breakdown, one race for all the marbles tomorrow.


WOWWWWW


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## poopdeckpappy (Jul 25, 2006)

Whoa !!


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## azguy (Jul 17, 2012)

I wonder if the fix was in to get it to be a close match, especially since Oracle looked liked they were going to get swept....


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

azguy said:


> I wonder if the fix was in to get it to be a close match, especially since Oracle looked liked they were going to get swept....


My thoughts exactly; kinda like "the fight of the century" that ends halfway through the first round. Way too much money invested to lose 5 days of TV coverage.
I guess we'll see tomorrow!


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## Dog8It (Jan 2, 2007)

At this point, Kiwis should be worried. Really worried. Aussies appear to have the upper hand. Finally, AC that is fun to watch.


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

Oracle 10 wins, 7 of those in a row. Kiwis 8 wins. 

After NZ took the start and was ahead through the 2nd gate I thought it was over. In practically every other race, NZ either stayed even or gained on the 3rd leg. And then about 1/3 the way through, Oracle passes them and soon leaves them in their dust. 

You have to be wondering what was going through the crew's mind on ETNZ when that happened.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Seems when conditions are even, both boats in clear air Oracle is often 2-3 knots faster.. they also spend a lot more time on the foils upwind, by the look of it. That's a hard combo to beat.

USA brimming with confidence now. It's hard to imagine yet another reversal of fortunes... (sigh)


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

I just went to Google sports news. Know what they had about the Cup?

_Oracle CEO Larry Ellison skips keynote for America's Cup races _

Not a word about the magical comeback. American's are such sailing nuts!


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## TTC (Apr 29, 2013)

Awesome. Simply awesome. 

One more.


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

Awesome sailing, just hope NZ did not learn to much from their American sailing lesson today.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

overbored said:


> Awesome sailing, just hope NZ did not learn to much from their American sailing lesson today.


American sailing lesson? You do realize there is only one American on the boat right?


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

At this point, the biggest miracle would be if ETNZ even manages to keep it close tomorrow, especially with Oracle having the favored early entry at the start...


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## RTB (Mar 5, 2009)

I think the Kiwi's have early entry tomorrow.


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

To my eye, it looks like Oracle is doing everything just a bit smoother. They're tacking and gybing smoother and sharper (with a very few exceptions), probably giving them a second or two on each maneuver. But also, in the past few races they've looked MUCH smoother than ENTZ in a straight line; they get on their foils nice and quick and smooth, and look rock solid as they foil across the bay. In contrast, the Kiwis seem to do a lot more pitching and bobbing while getting up on their foils, and don't look quite as smooth and steady once they get there.

I wouldn't want to bet against Oracle at this point. They really seem to have everything dialed in. Of course, if either team makes a big enough mistake (or even just hits a seal or a big enough fish with one of them spindly rudders) in the next race.....


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## TTC (Apr 29, 2013)

RTB said:


> I think the Kiwi's have early entry tomorrow.


Yes. After the first race today, they said that the ETNZ would have port entry on the last two races.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

SchockT said:


> American sailing lesson? You do realize there is only one American on the boat right?


Apparently that's all it takes.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Incredible comeback. While Oracle's cheating scandal puts a shadow over their success, it sure appears to be legit. No way Barker is a good enough actor to look that distraught after the second race yesterday. Am I right that Barker didn't give a post race interview after the second race yesterday? I saw Spithill. 

They haven't thrown anything, just for additional days of TV coverage. ETNZ has been beat on every front for days: tactics, boat handling and discipline (ie all the penalties they've received) and it seems they may actually have the slower boat now.


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

I believe in financial incentives to not have the race end quickly.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

chucklesR said:


> I believe in financial incentives to not have the race end quickly.


Then the Kiwi's deserve an Oscar. And then belong in the same snake pit as Ellison when this is all said and done.


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

Tomorrow marks the 30th anniversary of Australia II coming back from a 3-1 deficit to win 3 in a row and take the Cup away from the US, who held it for 132 years, since it's inception.

One marine forecast for the Bay says Small Craft Advisory in effect from 11 am PDT this morning through this evening with NW winds 10 to 20 kt...increasing to 15 to 25 kt this afternoon. If that's right, they might not sail today. And that could mean this Cup will be decided 30 years to the day from the last greatest comeback in Cup history.


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## bpolits (Sep 25, 2013)

Anyone notice how ETNZ's wing seems to have more twist to it than OTUSA's?


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## nolatom (Jun 29, 2005)

I posted this in the General Discussion section for a reason, to get more people's attention to what may be one of the biggest comebacks ever in sport, let alone in sailing.

But it got bumped here. Bummer, even though I like all you Racing forum types...


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## DrB (Mar 29, 2007)

*Average Winning Margin*

Oracle: 10 races 402 seconds total, *40.2 sec avg.*

Team New Zealand: 8 race, 324 seconds total, *40.5 sec avg.*

Seems to be a pretty even match between the boats (Crew/performance/tactics), based purely on the average winning margin.

Part of me wants to see Oracle take and complete one of the greatest comebacks in sports history and part of me wants to see the Kiwi's win it to possibly return to more "traditional" boats and rules.

What would be cool today is that these guys are hitting mark 4 at the same time and it becomes a dogfight tactical sprint to the line.

It has been exciting.


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

JulieMor said:


> If that's right, they might not sail today. And that could mean this Cup will be decided 30 years to the day from the last greatest comeback in Cup history.


No it won't. Tomorrow is the first day of the Rolex Big Boat Series, a 4-day regatta with hundreds of entries racing on multiple courses, several of which overlap the AC course. If the AC is not decided today, it will have to wait a week.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

Fstbttms said:


> No it won't. Tomorrow is the first day of the Rolex Big Boat Series, a 4-day regatta with hundreds of entries racing on multiple courses, several of which overlap the AC course. If the AC is not decided today, it will have to wait a week.


Well, If that's the case I'm sure ETNZ would welcome the break after all the racing they have been doing. They must be exhausted mentally and physically. In fact, they still have a "skip" card they haven't played. I wouldn't be surprised if they played it.


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

SchockT said:


> In fact, they still have a "skip" card they haven't played. I wouldn't be surprised if they played it.


They can't play it. That ship has sailed (pardon the pun.) The postponement card can only be used to put off a race, not a day of racing. That option is no longer available to them.


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

Fstbttms said:


> No it won't. Tomorrow is the first day of the Rolex Big Boat Series, a 4-day regatta with hundreds of entries racing on multiple courses, several of which overlap the AC course. If the AC is not decided today, it will have to wait a week.


There's no way they will postpone the AC a week. Too much money on the line. Not only would a week postponement cost everyone that's part of the race, onshore and off, more, but the commercial high this is riding on would fade and sponsors would drop like flies, except Oracle, of course.


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

JulieMor said:


> There's no way they will postpone the AC a week. Too much money on the line. Not only would a week postponement cost everyone that's part of the race, onshore and off, more, but the commercial high this is riding on would fade and sponsors would drop like flies, except Oracle, of course.


They won't have a choice. The Coast Guard permits have been issued etc. The AC is at the end of its allotted use of the Bay.

Update:

According to several posters on Sailing Anarchy, the St. Francis Yacht Club and the Rolex Big Big Boat Series have agreed to allow an AC race to occur on Thursday if necessary.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

I wonder how the BBS is going to re-work thier schedule - Three races on Friday will be pretty brutal. I'm now sortta glad I'm not in it this year after-all.


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## nolatom (Jun 29, 2005)

Well, now we don't have to worry about that....;-)


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

Whatever Oracle did to their boat last week (or whatever ETNZ Voodoo doll they stuck pins into), it sure as hell worked.

Yippee!! The next AC defense will be in SF!! Couldn't ask for a prettier backdrop.


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## nrb (Sep 24, 2013)

Three cheers for Oracle and America


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## RTB (Mar 5, 2009)

SlowButSteady said:


> Yippee!! The next AC defense will be in SF!!


Not necessarily. LE could move it, but we'll have to wait and see.

Ralph


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

RTB said:


> Not necessarily. LE could move it, but we'll have to wait and see.


Well, Uncle Larry does have his own Hawaiian island...


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## CBinRI (May 17, 2004)

Fstbttms said:


> Well, Uncle Larry does have his own Hawaiian island...


Really should be in Newport, IMHO.


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

CBinRI said:


> Really should be in Newport, IMHO.


Yawn.

Your blue blazer, stuffy East Coast, light air, lead mine AC regattas are a thing of the past. Better get used to that.


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## RTB (Mar 5, 2009)

CBinRI said:


> Really should be in Newport, IMHO.


I thought Newport would be cool, too. But San Francisco is a much better venue, really. Plenty of wind, a place for spectators to watch from shore, and a nice place to visit for everyone.

I think that Newport, and the 12 meters, was pretty awesome. These cats are the 21st century. Time to move on.

Ralph


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

SchockT said:


> American sailing lesson? You do realize there is only one American on the boat right?


Does Canada even have a boat? Noone loves Canada more than I do, but I'm detecting a little jealousy.

I can't think of a better us city than San Francisco for the cup. Don't forget the views from all the hills. Newport doesn't have that. I don't think it has the wind SF does. I say Honolulu would be the second best choice. Hawaii needs a new race there. They have really declined.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

northoceanbeach said:


> Does Canada even have a boat? Noone loves Canada more than I do, but I'm detecting a little jealousy.


Ah yes of course, I'm just jealous.

All I'm saying is that it is hardly an "American Sailing Lesson" when the sailors are from everywhere BUT the USA! Even the American tactician was punted in favour of a Brit!

Don't worry, Americans still reign supreme in their ability to blow obscene amounts of money on a sport the American public doesn't give a crap about!


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## RTB (Mar 5, 2009)

Fstbttms said:


> Well, Uncle Larry does have his own Hawaiian island...


That suggestion came up (in jest) in the press conference. It's worth an hour of your time to watch, IMO. SF is definitely not a given, for the next cup.


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

Next time the course should be: a beat out to the Light Bucket - run to Alcatraz - reach to the finish off of The Embarcadero (and no pu$$y wind limits). The AC72s were pretty cool, but let's see some boats that can take real SF Bay conditions, and races that aren't won or lost on a single error.


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

Fstbttms said:


> Well, Uncle Larry does have his own Hawaiian island...


Actually, not a bad idea. The original race was around an island.


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## harmonic (Sep 10, 2013)

JulieMor said:


> Oracle 10 wins, 7 of those in a row. Kiwis 8 wins.
> 
> After NZ took the start and was ahead through the 2nd gate I thought it was over. In practically every other race, NZ either stayed even or gained on the 3rd leg. And then about 1/3 the way through, Oracle passes them and soon leaves them in their dust.
> 
> You have to be wondering what was going through the crew's mind on ETNZ when that happened.


bugger comes to mind


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

RTB said:


> SF is definitely not a given...


It wasn't for this cup either. There was much hand wringing over where Ellison would defend. And LE certainly gains nothing by tipping his hand early. But I'd say that after this amazing event, San Francisco has a pretty good chance of being the next locale.


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

SchockT said:


> Ah yes of course, I'm just jealous.
> 
> All I'm saying is that it is hardly an "American Sailing Lesson" when the sailors are from everywhere BUT the USA! Even the American tactician was punted in favour of a Brit!
> 
> Don't worry, Americans still reign supreme in their ability to blow obscene amounts of money on a sport the American public doesn't give a crap about!


This from someone from a nation that wouldn't (or couldn't) field a challenge. Just another hater with Small Country Syndrome. :laugher


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

Fstbttms said:


> This from someone from a nation that wouldn't (or couldn't) field a challenge. Just another hater with Small Country Syndrome. :laugher


You are right in that Canada hasn't even tried field a challenger since..the '80s? (I believe we had 2 that time) I don't really care that we don't try to participate because I recognize that Canadians just aren't interested in yacht racing. At the same time, of course I am routing for the small country that IS passionate about sailing, and is the underdog from the beginning because they don't have the deep pockets. It has nothing to do with being a hater, or being envious of the USA. (I wouldn't trade countries for anything!)

I just don't think that it is appropriate to try to attach national pride to a syndicate that has very little American content in their program. Team Oracle is not a shining example of US sailing prowess, it is just a demonstration of US wealth. If anything they should be ashamed that they turned their backs on so Many talented American sailors, builders engineers etc. But they won the cup with an American flag on the boat, and that's all that matters, right?

If you want to make it a truly nation vs nation competition then there has to be citizenship requirements. Maybe even require that the boats be built in their home country.

Right now it is syndicate vs syndicate, and the flag they sail under is irrelevant.


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

Fstbttms said:


> It wasn't for this cup either. There was much hand wringing over where Ellison would defend. And LE certainly gains nothing by tipping his hand early. But I'd say that after this amazing event, San Francisco has a pretty good chance of being the next locale.


Since I started following the AC back in the 70's, I always felt the unpredictable winds were the downfall. I remember some races where it looked like they weren't even moving. That was bad back then but today, when everyone expects everything yesterday, it would kill any possibility of a sizable fan following.

And where on the shores of this country can you get better wind conditions than we saw in this last Cup? If they don't pick SF, wherever they do pick had better have consistent and good winds or they could lose a lot of the fans they just gained. But first, they have to figure out how to keep these fans during the long wait until the series begins again.


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## poopdeckpappy (Jul 25, 2006)

SchockT said:


> American sailing lesson? You do realize there is only one American on the boat right?


Well they still had to call it Team USA cuz Team " Whatever We Happen To Have on Board At The Time" was too long


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## downeast450 (Jan 16, 2008)

*Amazing** On all fronts!* From the materials the boats and sails are made of, to the engineering, designers and engineers who created these machines, to the technology used to televise it, to the venue, to the capabilities of the crews, to the capabilities of the "boats", to the vision of the winning owner, to the unbelievable outcome!!! WOW! WOW! WOW!

When can I buy a mast with a hinge to make it possible for my wing sail to lay flat, out of the wind when my boat is on its mooring? The future of sailing has changed!! What we all witnessed this past couple of weeks was "impossible" within recent memory. I have to wonder what the "magicians" are working on today!

Down


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

poopdeckpappy said:


> Well they still had to call it Team USA cuz Team " Whatever We Happen To Have on Board At The Time" was too long


They say a picture is worth 1000 words..

...and, especially for those of us who remember 1983, this would have to be the best summary of the AC saga I've seen to date:










(Cartoonist: Mark Knight for the Herald Sun)

Seems like there's more than one way to win the Cup for Auld Oz.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

Do I believe in Miracles? No I don't.

But what exactly did happen to turn Oracle's fortunes around seemingly overnight? Was it that the whole crew suddenly had an epiphany and figured out how to make the boat so stable on it's foils? I doubt it! More likely they had a bit of help. Exactly what that help was, and whether it was within the rules, we will probably never know.

This article is clipped from Sail-World.com:


> The following notes are circulating in Auckland media circles, as an explanation for Oracle Team USA's improved foiling performance, as time progressed in the 34th America's Cup.
> 
> The notes were dated September 23, 2013, but were received by Sail-World mid-morning September 26, after the regatta had finished. But the device was first highlighted by the Television NZ commentary team during their coverage of the vital Race 19, of the 34th America's Cup. Click here for the full race coverage and NZ commentary including comment on the Oracle Team USA foiling performance.
> 
> ...


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## CBinRI (May 17, 2004)

Fstbttms said:


> Yawn.
> 
> Your blue blazer, stuffy East Coast, light air, lead mine AC regattas are a thing of the past. Better get used to that.


Pretty douchey response. I guess you disrespectfully disagree.


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

SchockT said:


> Do I believe in Miracles? No I don't.
> 
> But what exactly did happen to turn Oracle's fortunes around seemingly overnight? Was it that the whole crew suddenly had an epiphany and figured out how to make the boat so stable on it's foils? I doubt it! More likely they had a bit of help. Exactly what that help was, and whether it was within the rules, we will probably never know.


Well, the skipper and strategist (both Aussies, BTW) are both highly-regarded Olympic-class yachtsmen used to from-behind comebacks. eg. Tom Slingsby is the reigning world champion and olympic gold medalist in the Laser class and the best caller of wind-shifts I've ever heard anyone speak of.

..but maybe it was kicking the Americans off the boat?


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

We all know both boats were loaded with elite sailors. That doesn't account for the very sudden change in Oracle's performance. The boat went from unsteady on it's foils to rock solid foiling on every point of sail almost over night. That has nothing to do with the afterguard, and I doubt it has to do with some extra practice hours, and a "superhuman effort to improve boathandling" as Oracle would have us believe.

Maybe it was an 11th hour "eureka moment" by the engineers coming up with the magic formula for stable flight. Maybe it is all perfectly innocent and fully within the rules. Unfortunately Team Oracle has a history of blatant cheating, combined with the fact that they have refused to comment about their foil control system at all, could lead one to believe that they have something to hide.


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## downeast450 (Jan 16, 2008)

SchockT said:


> Do I believe in Miracles? No I don't.
> 
> But what exactly did happen to turn Oracle's fortunes around seemingly overnight? Was it that the whole crew suddenly had an epiphany and figured out how to make the boat so stable on it's foils? I doubt it! More likely they had a bit of help. Exactly what that help was, and whether it was within the rules, we will probably never know.
> 
> This article is clipped from Sail-World.com:


Sounds reasonable. Hoping that cheating isn't the new "edge" in this sport. Why should it be any different than all the others!

Down


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Does anybody else find it odd that we still have grinders hammering away, while they are simply loading an hydraulic system and a computer is necessary to keep the boat sailing?

Advances are great, but this seems we are beginning to boarder on the crew being unnecessary. Did you see all the electronic devices on their forearms and even the tacticians had some flip down tablet on their torso. I'm not opposed, it just seems less like a sailing race and more like a computer race.


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## weinie (Jun 21, 2008)

Minnewaska said:


> Does anybody else find it odd that we still have grinders hammering away, while they are simply loading an hydraulic system and a computer is necessary to keep the boat sailing?
> 
> Advances are great, but this seems we are beginning to boarder on the crew being unnecessary. Did you see all the electronic devices on their forearms and even the tacticians had some flip down tablet on their torso. I'm not opposed, it just seems less like a sailing race and more like a computer race.


I use an autopilot when I sail single handed. 
I also use electronics to measure depth and speed.
Oh, and a GPS instead of charts.
I'd like to think I'm still sailing.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

weinie said:


> I use an autopilot when I sail single handed.
> I also use electronics to measure depth and speed.
> Oh, and a GPS instead of charts.
> I'd like to think I'm still sailing.


You most certainly are sailing. However, are you racing?


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