# Newbie advice - tips and tricks for buying/ maintaining classic wooden boats



## Adax (Apr 24, 2010)

What advice would you give to newbies who set out to buy a classic wooden boat as their first boat ? We might go directly for a bluewater boat or a boat just to learn on. ( We plan river cruising mainly to get experience ) 

So what good tips could you share with me, please? Anything from what parts of the boat you should check when buying as they are telltale places of rot to the best wax to use on interior cabinets and anything else in between .

Many thanks for your help .

PS: The one about "make friends with the bank manager " we know


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## creedence623 (Mar 8, 2006)

I would say, unless you are a skilled woodworker, or a glutton for punishmnent avoid vintage wooden boats! Making friends with the bank manager for the initial purchase is good advice, but it the secondary costs are going to eat you alive. 

I would suggest as a first boat, that you look in to fiberglass. As a hull material it is relatively maintenance free. Believe me when I say that the learning curve is pretty steep when you buy your first boat, and IMHO the last thing you need to worry about at such an early stage in boat ownership is the hull's ability to keep water out.

I'm sure there will be many more educated opinions to come, but that is my 2 cents. In any case I hope you find the right boat, and enjoy it!


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## Adax (Apr 24, 2010)

Thanks Creedence. We have our heart pretty much set on a wooden boat .The good news is that we are both handy,not experienced woodworkers, but I have tried my hand at cabinet making and I am looking forward to the sanding toning my arms ,that is if I don't lose patience and reach for the powersander first. 
And thanks for the good wishes on the boat .


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

Adax said:


> Thanks Creedence. We have our heart pretty much set on a wooden boat .The good news is that we are both handy,not experienced woodworkers, but I have tried my hand at cabinet making and I am looking forward to the sanding toning my arms ,that is if I don't lose patience and reach for the powersander first.
> And thanks for the good wishes on the boat .


Unless money is no object, it's a lot more than " sanding..." see
Restoration
and various related threads by CharlieCobra like
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-maintenance/63502-oh-joy-resto-04-03-10-a.html.


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## Adax (Apr 24, 2010)

Thanks for that . My comment about sanding was just to display a can do attitude,really . We already know marine carpenters who do not charge the earth, if there are jobs we cannot handle. (and there will be)

Thanks for the reference to Charlie Cobra .He has an interest project there,but way more than we would ever consider taking on as a first boat . The one that is in the running seems cared for by means of the chequebook, so the initial work should be minimal . Keeping it minimal in the future will be the trick .


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Adax.. what Charlie does is not exstream by any means when it comes to wooden boats. 

Where you are has a big bearing on type and condition of wooden boats. the North Atlantic being good (cold salt water)

I've studied wooden boats most of my life. I'm actually a somewhat good woodworker and have the ability and know how to build and or restore wooden boats. And... I don't own a wooden sailboat. I am down to selling off my last wooden canoe however. 

Sadly, so many people with good intent get into a wooden boat and in a year or so realize it's more then they dreame of. it's hard work! 

If your still not swayed I would suggest you join a maritime museum that has an active boat building/restoration shop. or start meeting wooden boat builders in your area. You will find many people very happy to share the knowledge. woodenboat discussion forums are priceless also. 

Do Link us up with the boat you have in mind. What you see is not always what you get in wooden boats.


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

I'm going to get blasted for this post from both sides I think. 

First, I have no experience with wooden boats, but I do have plenty of woodworking experience, so ...

I think the big thing most people probably don't realize is that the kind of wood working you use for cabinetry isn't really the same thing you'll be using for something like fixing a wood boat. In cabinets you are dealing with a lot of straight lines, and power tools, you're using table saws, circular saws, drill presses, table top planers, routers, etc. That's not going to be the case with something like a wooden boat, with a wooden boat there's no doubt going to be more artistry involved, bending wood, using wood chisels, etc, and a lot of materials you would never use in cabinet making. Why am I saying this ? Not to pick on cabinet makers, but I have seen people who make cabinets who can do a great job as long as they have their power tools but couldn't use or sharpen a chisel to save themselves. You can bang out an incredible amount of wood with chisels, odd shapes, strange curves, and touch things up as you are fitting them so that they are "just right", and even though I have never owned a wooden boat I'm sure there is a lot of that, and very little turning wood on a lathe type of work which is the kind of "wood working" most people think of when they think of building and maintaining things out of wood. If there is a perfect person to own a wooden boat I would think it would be a wood sculptor or possibly a furniture maker more than a cabinet maker, someone who can get in there with a hand plane and take a little off the edge to get the plank to squeeze in where it doesn't want to fit. This is the kind of wood working that requires a great deal of knowledge about how to sharpen hand tools, the edge does all the work!


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

First, let's determine just what kind of boat we are discussing here- planked, stripped, cold moulded, hot moulded, a production boat, homebuilt? The style of construction has a big impact on what to look for. For example, telling you to check for missing caulking and iron sick planks would have you scratching your head if the boat in question is a WEST system construction.


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## Adax (Apr 24, 2010)

Denise ,thanks for that. We don't have a particular boat in mind yet . There is one that my other half will look at but not an inspection yet per se . They are likely to be by Argentine architects like Campos, Frers or Cibert (ca 1925- 55) 
The work does not scare us so much as we don't have standard 9-5 jobs, so hopefully there will be time . I will look into a wooden boats forum ,in fact I already found one.

Wind magic thanks. You have actually made the thing more interesting . Do I know how too sharpen tools .No . Would I like to learn -yeah ... In the meantime if anything is desperately urgent, no choice but consult the professionals and yes we have budgeted for that .

BL Jones, thanks you have reminded me that I am a newbie  The questions you asked I cannot answer straight away with certainty . It will be a production boat although,there are some one offs about, very likely planked ,but no idea what was the construction method at the time whether hot mouded or cold moulded .( I think hot but that is just an uneducated guess) We are looking at Parodi,Frers or Cibert designs .


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## cormeum (Aug 17, 2009)

As a long term wood boat owner, If there is one variable that will either make or break you, it's initial condition. Secondarily would be build quality.

If the boat is in good shape, the annual maintenance is not that onerous. 
Bottom paint: Everyone has to do that
Topside: every other year
Varnish: annually (scuff and recoat)

If the boat has been neglected, there's a Charlie Cobra amount of work ahead of you to put things right.

System maintenance is the same whether your boat is glass, wood or metal.

Unlike our Plastic hulled bretheren, a wood boat does not accept being lax in necessary maintenance- things have to be fixed RIGHT AWAY if they involve seeps, leaks or coating failures.

Full disclosure- we do all of our own annual maintenance.


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## Adax (Apr 24, 2010)

Cormeum, very encouragin,thanks. Yes we will only look at boats that have been kept well . In spite of the excitement about finally getting a boat my other half is keeping a cool head on his shoulders . Thanks !


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## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

I didn't have wooden boat experience when I first got Oh Joy either but plenty of other experience. I sailed her for 18 months before the Perkins died and I decided to do a refit (not restoration). During the refit, I found things that required a restoration and here I am....


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

windn magic, Mystic seaport museum has a lathe that can turn a tree trunk into a mast! and a band saw that's 2 stories high! Philly museum only has a 10ft high band saw. 
Bending wood is a something that really really makes you feel like a boat builder. My son and I would steam and bend all the ribs (50 or so) for a wooden canoe then steam some shrimp or lobster after! Cedar infuses a nice flavor into the shellfish too. 

Bending a 8"X4" white oak timber.. now I would need help with that LOL


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## hanleyclifford (May 8, 2010)

*Wooden boat*

I bought one in 1989 because I had a wooden fishing boat and I thought I knew what I was doing. I knew I had to scarf in new frame heels and do floors, but I wasn't ready for the 2 planks that had to be done right away. It was then that I realized I had two options. 1) Get out while the getting is good, or 2) Make a total commitment to the boat. I chose #2 and twenty years and six round trips to Florida later, I am content with my decision. Unless you are filthy rich, a wooden boat must become your way of life. Make sure you are the former or prepared for the latter. Unquestionably, ownership of my Herreschoff 30' sailboat has ben one of the joys of my life.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

Adax said:


> .....He has an interest project there,but way more than we would ever consider taking on as a first boat . The one that is in the running seems cared for by means of the chequebook, so the initial work should be minimal . Keeping it minimal in the future will be the trick .


It wasn't what he thought he was taking on either, so what keeps you from stepping up next and repeating the experience...?


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## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

Exactly, the surveyor who did the boat for the previous sale that fell through before I got her missed it too and he's a very well known wood boat surveyor. I didn't find it until I started probing around fixing other issues, minor ones. My threads have two meanings. Wood boats can hide problems, big ones. Wood boats can ALWAYS be repaired, if you're up to it.


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## cormeum (Aug 17, 2009)

CharlieCobra said:


> Exactly, the surveyor who did the boat for the previous sale that fell through before I got her missed it too and he's a very well known wood boat surveyor. I didn't find it until I started probing around fixing other issues, minor ones. My threads have two meanings. Wood boats can hide problems, big ones. Wood boats can ALWAYS be repaired, if you're up to it.


Sounds familiar. Don't get me started on surveyors.

Adax, a couple of things: Look for a clean, and I mean pristine, bilge. Poke into every cranny you can squeeze yourself, test for soft spots ruthlessly. Remember there's a whole lot of idiots running around boatyards, so "boat yard maintained" doesn't necessarily mean as much as you may think. A lot of Charlie's ( and my) work is fixing work badly done by various "prestigeous' boatyards.


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## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

No doubt about it. Oh Joy's issues were caused by a well regarded "Shipwright". Look for any staining along chainplates and around deck hardware that shows up below. Also look for peeling paint, especially in the bilge as paint doesn't stick well or long to rot.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

by the way... if you see drywall screws anywhere! Run away screaming!


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## Adax (Apr 24, 2010)

Well good news .The hunt for a wooden boat is now on for real . If lucky one will be found in the next 2 months or so . My other half has managed to find an expert who will view the boats with him. In his words we will turn the boat inside out like a sock .He is not a surveyor but has sailed wooden boats and rebuilt them .So with him onboard things should go smoothly .

Thanks all for all the tips ,really appreciated .

Sailingf , if the boat turned out a project like Oh joy so be it ,but what I meant is that we are not setting out for a project boat . 

Hanley ,nice to hear a story with a happy end even though an uphill struggle was involved . 

Cormeum and Charlie : Thanks for the tips re the bilg eetc. I will pass them on to K. .He knows a lot already but has not purchased a boat before so any tips gratefully received . 

Denise, drywall screws would be so exotic I would definitely run ...
Drywall is not used here very often, so I would wonder what on earth the purpose of it was ,if not just sheer ignorance.


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## cormeum (Aug 17, 2009)

Let us know what you find- and post pics!


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## Adax (Apr 24, 2010)

Corneum,I will definitely post pics .


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

just to give you an idea of how bad "good" boats get

The Wooden Boat Rescue Foundation

And here's one being restored but it looks like it's not been updated in awhile.
Oyster Sloop Restoration Nellie H.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

Adax said:


> Well good news .The hunt for a wooden boat is now on for real . If lucky one will be found in the next 2 months or so . My other half has managed to find an expert who will view the boats with him. In his words we will turn the boat inside out like a sock .He is not a surveyor but has sailed wooden boats and rebuilt them .So with him onboard things should go smoothly .
> 
> Thanks all for all the tips ,really appreciated .
> 
> ...


Right...smoothly...not like everyone else.

Boating is of course a very expensive hobby, and there are plenty of threads about that subject. But owning a wooden boat is special, because most boaters know they can't afford a wooden boat regardless of how much they already spend on their expensive plastic toy.

The problem with threads like this, is that when the OPs learn their lessons the hard way, they usually go quiet as they are too embarrassed to share their expensive and painfully-earned expertise.


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## remetau (Jan 27, 2009)

I remember having woodies.

Oops. Wrong forumn.


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## cormeum (Aug 17, 2009)

sailingfool said:


> Right...smoothly...not like everyone else.
> 
> Boating is of course a very expensive hobby, and there are plenty of threads about that subject. But owning a wooden boat is special, because most boaters know they can't afford a wooden boat regardless of how much they already spend on their expensive plastic toy.
> 
> The problem with threads like this, is that when the OPs learn their lessons the hard way, they usually go quiet as they are too embarrassed to share their expensive and painfully-earned expertise.


Well, Charlie and I are still here.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Much as I love, and would love to own a classic 40 some thing feet ketch of oak and mahogany... I know I'll never own one and I know I'll never be guiet!


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## remetau (Jan 27, 2009)

For those who do own wooden boats, is there really an additional expense in having one?

I know a guy down here who has a hard time finding a haul-out facility since many won't take his wooden boat out of the water due to the extra risk.


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## cormeum (Aug 17, 2009)

remetau said:


> For those who do own wooden boats, is there really an additional expense in having one?
> 
> I know a guy down here who has a hard time finding a haul-out facility since many won't take his wooden boat out of the water due to the extra risk.


We've never had any problems like what you describe. Like I said, if the boat's in good shape and you're prompt with maintenance, it's really not that bad, but it's more than you'd have with plastic.

Thing is most of these are old, and older boats, no matter what they're made of, need more work as a rule.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

I'm gonna quote myself from another thread.

"You don't own a wooden boat- you're simply the caretaker, maintaining the legacy.

Funny thing about wooden boats is that you never find the right boat- it finds you, and when it does, all of your rationalizations and rules of boat ownership fly out the window. If she is the right boat, you WILL resuscitate her and love every minute and every dollar spent, and there are few fiberglass boats that make me feel the same way."


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

cormeum said:


> We've never had any problems like what you describe. Like I said, if the boat's in good shape and you're prompt with maintenance, it's really not that bad, but it's more than you'd have with plastic.
> 
> Thing is most of these are old, and older boats, no matter what they're made of, need more work as a rule.


Certainly no offense intended...I bow low to those capable, financially and emotionally, of maintaining lovely wooden yachts.

But I suspect you both have a far better understanding of what the term good shape really means in your words of wisdom "..If the boat is in good shape, the annual maintenance is not that onerous..."
A wood boat in good shape will be expensive...probably more than a plastic equivalent. I suspect most starry-eyed first time buyers get stuck on "looks good" and never to to "good shape"....


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## cormeum (Aug 17, 2009)

sailingfool said:


> Certainly no offense intended...I bow low to those capable, financially and emotionally, of maintaining lovely wooden yachts.
> 
> But I suspect you both have a far better understanding of what the term good shape really means in your words of wisdom "..If the boat is in good shape, the annual maintenance is not that onerous..."
> A wood boat in good shape will be expensive...probably more than a plastic equivalent. I suspect most starry-eyed first time buyers get stuck on "looks good" and never to to "good shape"....


None taken 

There are many factors driving price/condition with these. A "pedigreed" boat from a famous designer will run considerably more than one from another lesser known one. Actually their idea of looking at a Campos designed boat is a good one- it'll probably cost less.
A wood boat, generally in very good (not perfect) condition be competitive with other hull materials, it's just that as with buying anything used, you have to be careful and buy with your head, not your heart.

For comparison here's a list of woodies from a very reputable broker:

Cannell, Payne, & Page -- Wooden Sailboats For Sale

and here's a listing of glass boats from the same folks:

Cannell, Payne, & Page -- Fiberglass and Other Sailboats For Sale


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## CBinRI (May 17, 2004)

Adax said:


> What advice would you give to newbies who set out to buy a classic wooden boat as their first boat ? We might go directly for a bluewater boat or a boat just to learn on. ( We plan river cruising mainly to get experience )
> 
> So what good tips could you share with me, please? Anything from what parts of the boat you should check when buying as they are telltale places of rot to the best wax to use on interior cabinets and anything else in between .
> 
> ...


Run like the wind.

Edit: I guess that isn't very productive advice. I work a lot so I want to spend what time I have sailing and not maintaining my boat. There are a lot of very pretty fibreglass boats. Would you settle for pretty woodwork below? Also, if or when you decide you want to sell your wooden boat there is a much smaller pool of potential buyers.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Wood rots we know that..one saving grace is wood is "bio degradable"

When Millions of FG boats starting showing really bad blistering because so many people thought FG was "maintenance free" more then a few million FG boats were left to "rot" also.

Now, of course there are all kinds of products to prevent, fix and or cure blisters.. the rot that affects FG? Ever break open a really big and wet blister? The smell and ooze... <faint>

(I know I'm generalizing here) 
I think the point I'm trying to make is, some people would rather not maintain things given the choice. They do of course want or like "Bling" Cars and boats of course have big bling factors. and people in general are lazy...for whatever reasons. (no one here!) :laugher

When FG came on the scene in the 50s? It was the answer to high maintenance wooden boats! Not quite so true as it's been found many years later. The hours and hours of fixing fiberglass is not too much less in time then that which it takes for wood... A rotted plank on a traditionally planked boat can be replaced in a few hours. A badly blistered FG hull needs to "dry" before repairs begin.. so of course does a wooden boat.

So it's all relative to the owner.. if they have the desire to maintain a boat, house, car, etc and love it they will take care of it.

I must confess I'm looking for a under 20ft wooden runabout to restore even though I own a classic plastic cruiser. Building and restoring wooden canoes was an expensive hobby also. I do want a wood runabout for the "bling"


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

deniseO30 said:


> Wood rots we know that..one saving grace is wood is "bio degradable"
> 
> When Millions of FG boats starting showing really bad blistering because so many people thought FG was "maintenance free" more then a few million FG boats were left to "rot" also.
> 
> Now, of course there are all kinds of products to prevent, fix and or cure blisters.. the rot that affects FG? Ever break open a really big and wet blister? The smell and ooze... ....<faint>  </faint>


O30
way too much doomm and gloom in this perspective. FWIW I've owned five FG boats over my 35 year sof boating, and worked on many more, and I've never personally faced a wet bottom blister even once...(although I've seen an occasional badly poxed OPBs in the yard).


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

You know I wasn't talking about you or your boat SF  Wooden boats were "doomed" when FG came on the scene! I'm just saying wood or glass, if the owner is not going to care for the vessel it will become a mess and "project" boat. Funny.. people will let glass boats sit in the yard for years and years. Yet they can't wait it seems, to attack the wooden boat with a chainsaw!


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

I would recommend going through the expense of a survey at a different level.<O></O>
Assuming plank on rib boat I would recommend.<O></O>

Pulling one or more keel bolts.<O></O>
Pulling both garboards and a couple of random planks.<O></O>
Removing ceiling in several places.
Lift up some deck
Lift up some sole.
Pull the rig
<O></O>
This is obviously very destructive testing and everything will have to be replaced to the owners satisfaction. If you can not get funding and approval to do the above you will of course do it after the boat is bought eventually. Then you will find out what is inside.
<O></O>

My 1 ¼" keel bolts were rusted to 1/8"
My floors 4" x 8" timbers I was able to lift out with my fingers.
The ribs had a channel of rotted wood the whole length of the rib not visible from the inside.
Much blocking material was rotted
All the fastenings need to be replaced.
<O></O>
Obviously I bought the wrong boat, I was an experienced cabinet maker and hired a navel architect and surveyor to look over the boat. It looked great.

Do yourself a favor and take a trip to Bristol, RI and tour the indoor Herreshoff Museum. See the condition of boats completely restored and left indoors for a couple years.

All that being said I would love to have one, but so far I have sucessfull it putting it off.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

davidpm said:


> Obviously I bought the wrong boat, I was an experienced cabinet maker and hired a navel architect


Well there's your first problem. When you get a plastic surgeon to look at a boat, they think all the damage is cosmetic and fixable.

Thanks, folks, I'll be here all week. Don't forget to tip your waitress.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

Thanks a bunch BL. Did it mention this was about 30 years ago.

"Obviously I bought the wrong boat, I was an experienced cabinet maker and hired a navel architect and surveyor to look over the boat. It looked great."

Actually it was two different guys. Father and son though.
The trick is to get a surveror that hate the kind of boat you are looking to by. My guy loved wood boats.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

There are no secrets to owning a wooden boat. You need to learn everything you can about wood, metalurgy, and how wooden boats are built; prefer working on a boat to sailing one, not care how well the boat sails vs the idea of owning a wooden boat. In other words for most of us who have owned a wooden boat, owning a wooden boat needed to be about owning a wooden boat, and more than about sailing a boat. 

But then again, there is a tendancy to discuss wooden boats like they are all the same, but of course, they are not. More than most boat building materials, wooden boats the variations in construction type (carvel, lapstrake, ashcroft, hot and cold molded, sheet plywood, strip planked, glues spline, etc.) materials (planking, framing, decking, spars, fastenings etc.), maintenance, and even the details (ceiled or open frame) all make huge differences in the strength, comfort, future maintenance and maintainability, and sailing ability. Having owned and restored a number of wooden boats in my life, I can assure you that each aspect of a wooden boat will have a huge impact and each offers advantages and disadvantages, and only one set of variables will make sense for you, and none of us can tell you what is right for you. 

In other words. while wooden boats can be great, they can also be the graveyard of dreams, sucking up years of your life, a ******** that grinds you down and empties your pocket. They are neither an end all be all, nor are they inherently good or bad. 

If you are going to buy a wooden boat, my best advice is to study everything that you can on wooden boats, maybe get a job in a boat yard that specializes in working on wooden boat, do your due dilligence, and perhaps then you will know which wooden boat, and which construction type and material will work for you personally. 

Respectfully,
Jeff


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## cormeum (Aug 17, 2009)

Jeff_H said:


> There are no secrets to owning a wooden boat. You need to learn everything you can about wood, metalurgy, and how wooden boats are built;


helps, but not really necessary



> prefer working on a boat to sailing one, not care how well the boat sails vs the idea of owning a wooden boat. In other words for most of us who have owned a wooden boat, owning a wooden boat needed to be about owning a wooden boat, and more than about sailing a boat.


Umm, no. Wood is a material and like others and has certain advantages and disadvantages- That's prejudice, not engineering. To be fair, we really should be comparing new to new.



> But then again, there is a tendancy to discuss wooden boats like they are all the same, but of course, they are not. More than most boat building materials, wooden boats the variations in construction type (carvel, lapstrake, ashcroft, hot and cold molded, sheet plywood, strip planked, glues spline, etc.) materials (planking, framing, decking, spars, fastenings etc.), maintenance, and even the details (ceiled or open frame) all make huge differences in the strength, comfort, future maintenance and maintainability, and sailing ability. Having owned and restored a number of wooden boats in my life, I can assure you that each aspect of a wooden boat will have a huge impact and each offers advantages and disadvantages, and only one set of variables will make sense for you, and none of us can tell you what is right for you.


Fair'nuf.



> In other words. while wooden boats can be great, they can also be the graveyard of dreams, sucking up years of your life, a ******** that grinds you down and empties your pocket. They are neither an end all be all, nor are they inherently good or bad.


True, like most things when they're good they're good, when they're bad, bad.



> If you are going to buy a wooden boat, my best advice is to study everything that you can on wooden boats, maybe get a job in a boat yard that specializes in working on wooden boat, do your due dilligence, and perhaps then you will know which wooden boat, and which construction type and material will work for you personally.


Should FRP owners get a job at a chemical plant? Overkill.

do some reading on construction and materials, that's a good recommendation. Work at a boatyard doing wood boat construction? :laugher not necessary unless you want to buy something like Coronet.


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## SailingWebGuy (May 5, 2010)

There is a beast of a wooden boat sitting on the hard right next to mine. I wish I had a picture of it to post. It looks very cool...but also like years of work.

The marina keeps bugging me to buy and restore it. I'm almost tempted just to get my hands on some of the huge brass gear on the boat.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Where's it at Guy?


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

cormeum said:


> helps, but not really necessary
> 
> Umm, no. Wood is a material and like others and has certain advantages and disadvantages- That's prejudice, not engineering. To be fair, we really should be comparing new to new.
> 
> ...


I am in part basing my comments on my own experiences within the wooden boat community, but over the nearly half a century that I have been around wooden boats, fewer and fewer boatyards have the capability to work on traditional wooden boats, and in many areas of the country, there is a real lack of knowledge of how to properly do routine maintenance, let alone repair wooden boats. I have encountered people who advertise themselves as being knowledgable wooden boat retorers who understand very little about the behaivor of wood, and how to do a restoration in a manner that will be durable and maintainable in the future.

As a result, unlike when I was a kid, except in rare areas of the country and in rare but typically very expensive boatyards, unlike the owner of a fiberglass boat, where almost any decent yard understand how to do a good fiberglass repair or maintenance, the owner of a wooden boat needs to truly understand what is being proposed by the yard and understand the implications of that proposal relative to good wooden boat husbandry practice. In other words, unless you have a lot of money to throw at your boat, you need to be a whole lot more knowledgeable to own a wooden boat.

As I look at the posts by the original poster it appears that he knows little or nothing about wooden boats, not even understanding the basics of the various ways that a wooden boat can be constructed.

And while I agree with you that wood is just another material with advantages and disadvantages, in this day and age, if you are going to own a wooden boat you need to decide that there is a specific reason why you personally want to own a wooden boat, because there are so many glass boats of almost all descriptions on the market and they will generally be cheaper to buy and cheaper to maintain, for any given age or condition than a wooden boat.

While I may have worded it poorly, I do not think that it is a personal bias to say that someone who buys a wooden boat does so because they want a wooden boat more than because of some inherent interest in how that that particular boat sails. By that I mean, that you can find boats in a range of materials that will offer comparable sailing characteriistics to most wooden boats so owning a wooden boat is not about how it sails, but about other intangibles.

Unless you are wealthy enough to turn everything over to a boatyard somewhere and either go to some of the most expensive yards in the country or else expect to pay again to correct the mistakes of the less expensive yards, most of the rest of us who dabble with wooden boats, need to plan on doing a lot of our own work. That is the basis of my comment that owning a wooden boat you better enjoy working on the boat as much as sailing it.

Which gets us to my 'work in a boat yard that works on wooden boats' comment. Somehow you need to learn how to do things efficiently or else the boat will deteriorate faster than you can restore it. Getting that education is difficult today. In my own case, as a teen ager I worked in boat yards which still repaired and maintained wooden boats. It gave me chance to work side by side with guys who had done this all their lives. Back in the 1970's, I owned and restored a few old wooden boats of different construction technigues (OK Dinghy, 1949 Folkboat, 1939 Stadel Cutter) and helped anyone who needed a hand. It was a steep learning curve, but back then there were a lot of folks who understood wooden boat building and who helped me get over the humps. While not always easy, it was a good apprenticeship.

Today, it is much harder to find people willing to help you learn about wooden boats. There are wooden boat restoration schools and wooden boat husbanding courses but they are expensive. That was why I suggested that doing an apprencticeship in boatyard might be a good alternative.

Respectfully,
Jeff


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## SailingWebGuy (May 5, 2010)

deniseO30 said:


> Where's it at Guy?


It's in Pasadena, MD. At Pasadena Yacht Yard.


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## Adax (Apr 24, 2010)

My,my ,this has turned into quite a thread .Thank you all . 

Well,a wooden boat it is going to be . Able help is available at time of purchase and beyond . Naval carpenters woodworkers still exist here at rates that are . affordable .There is a likely candidate already. We will know later in the week. 

A special thanks to everyone who has contributed tips as to how to evaluate a boat .


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Kudos Adax! we are behind you all the way! (until it's time to clean the bilges)
giggle


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## Adax (Apr 24, 2010)

Thanks Denise . Good day to send those encouraging words. I am waiting for news on the first boat .


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## jaycallender (Mar 30, 2010)

As someone who used to buy and rebuild/restore classic wooden motoryachts, the best advice I could give is buy a new boat!

In seriousness, the classic wooden boats have a look and elegant feel that no new boat can match, but you must either love a lot of hand labor or have a lot of $$ to pay someone else to do the work!


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## jaycallender (Mar 30, 2010)

One other note-if you find a boat you like-find a marine surveyor with extensive wooden boat experience, have the boat pulled and pay whatever he wants to do a complete, inside and out, stem to stern survey. If there are any structural porblems at all, don't buy unless the owner fixes to the surveyor's recommendations.


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## Adax (Apr 24, 2010)

Thanks Jay,we will get it thoroughly inspected . 

Just had news that on the surface of it the boat is beautiful ,well maintained etc. It will get eyeballed once more with a guy who has owned wooden boats and if it passes that it will get pulled out of the water for teh full works at some date in the not too distant future.


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## creedence623 (Mar 8, 2006)

It certainly sounds like you have your mind made up, so there's only one thing left to say... congratulations and best of luck! I'm sure your understanding of wood boats will develop over time, and it sounds like you have a pretty good support network in place to help with the learning curve.

I would venture to say that most of wooden boat owners on this forums received the same cautionary advice when they were in the market, and I would wager that very few of them regret their purchase. Let us know how she surveys, and pics are required!


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Got a link to the boat you may buy Adax?


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## Adax (Apr 24, 2010)

Denise, no I haven't. He found it by accident ,when he was visiting a broker but it does not seem to be advertised in the usual spots. The one he went to look at was just so so,the other one advertised a money pit (needed 15 k or so spent). This one he cannot find fault with and he has given it the once over checking for damp/soft spots under the bunks and what not. I am not there at the moment . Hope he thinks of taking a camera. He did say though that he thinks I will fall in love with it


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## cormeum (Aug 17, 2009)

Start below the deck and work your way down to the bilge. Another good test is try to do a sea trial when there's a good breeze- when she's pressed hard if the hull is working you'll see a good deal of water in the bilge after the trial. Contrary to popular belief, if the boat's in good shape and not dried out, the bilge should be dry except for what you'd get from the shaft gland.


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## ilikerust (Apr 19, 2010)

I haven't seen to many links provided in this thread.

Maybe I just skimmed the thread too quickly and missed it, but I would highly recommend the Wooden Boat forum at The WoodenBoat Forum.

Also browse Half.com for books about wooden boat renovation, repair and maintenance.

As a longtime, hardcore, do-it-yourselfer, home improvement handyman extraordinaire and hobbyist woodworker, I will say that wood does have certain advantages over fiberglass and plastics - for one, it's infinitely repairable, using simple and inexpensive tools.

I too plan on someday owning a cool wooden boat - in fact, way high on my bucket list is building a wooden sailboat. I have been perusing plans for a long time now. It's not as difficult as some might thing, depending on the chosen style and construction method.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

One of my favs is the 27ft new haven sharpie design. (flat bottom sailboats) 
"it can sail on a heavy dew"


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Denise, 

I have always been drawn to New Haven Sharpies largely based on Howard Chappelle's descriptions.

When I finally sailed one, I was a little disappointed. I had always heard that they were sailed heeled and did not pound in a chop, but as it turned out the pounded about a much as you would expect any flat bottomed boat to pound, no matter how heeled you were. 

More significantly, these old girls took a lot of skill to sail, and while the fellow who owned the one I sailed on was very good sailor and had sailed a bunch of sharpies, he made it clear that you really need to know what you are doing when you sail sharpies, which of course is what Chappelle learned rather quickly. Chappelle had one built in Annapolis. On his first sail, he capsized within a few hundred feet of the Spa Creek bridge. 

Also, just for clarity, The New Haven Sharpies had inboard rudders and although I have heard that some had this rudder mounted in a case that could be withdrawn, most could not be raised beyond the bottom of the boat giving them something like 2 feet of draft. 

Jeff


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Oh yes! they would go over in a heartbeat I would imagine Jeff. But to be able to sail in coastal bays would really be cool (maybe not) with bugs and smelly mud, snakes, etc. 

The whole east coast seems to have lots of specialized shallow draft boats.. Like the cat boat, sharpie, sneak box, duck boats, Delaware bay schooners, Chesapeake skip-jacks, there was one boat called a Tuck up and another called a sandbagger, that I heard about but never saw in the Phila seaport museum. But in the end of it all I love my keelboat!


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Things you don't want to see on a DIY wooden boat restore!
drywall screws! 
common nails!
latex caulk!
red oak
hemlock
brass hardware (in the cabin ok) 
paper bags, 
cardboard boxes, 

(add more)

Things you do want to see on a DIY wooden boat!
receipts from a lumber mill. 
bronze hardware. 
varnish, more varnish, lots of varnish
red lead on the timbers, (or the equivalent ) 
all kinds of hand tools for woodworking, 
spokeshave, 
planes,
screw setters
(add more)


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## hanleyclifford (May 8, 2010)

*Buying a Wooden Boat*

Adax - Here are a few suggestions. When you have found what you think is the right boat, hire an expert to examine the boat. This does not necessarily mean a "surveyor". The best expert is some one who has actually restored a boat similar to the one in question - not an insurance surveyor. Those guys are only interested in what the company will write for a policy. A survey begins in the backbone - stem, forefoot, keelplank, deadwood and sternpost. Look for a person who has done this work himself. Do not be afraid of tackling some foundation or plank work if this deficiency is reflected in a lower price. You will do some of this work sooner or later. When you get your expert on board tell him this---"I want you to scrutinize this boat and talk me OUT of buying it". If he cannot do it, the Right boat has found YOU!


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## Adax (Apr 24, 2010)

Well, she has been found and she is coming out of the water on Tuesday .Wish us luck.Things are looking good but you never know.
If you have not seen the pics Kumgang put them here.

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/general-discussion-sailing-related/65405-introducing-our-boat.html


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