# Improving Sailnet



## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Hey everyone,

In light of the many threads, I thought we could bounce off some ideas about improving the site. One idea recently posted was to take exceptional threads, and "stick" them in subforums of the the appropriate forums. FOr example, Maine Sail's wax and polish thread is exceptional. We could make a subforum of Gear and Maintenance and stick it to the top. THat is only one example and I am open to other suggestions.

THoughts? Other improvements? 

Understand, we can't do them all but welcome a open and frank discussion. If we cannot implement your idea, don't take it personally. 

Brian


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

Yearly forum awards would be fun. The "academy awards" of S/N once a year on a certain date... best poster, worst poster/troll, best thread of the year, worst thread of the year.. the categories are endless..


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## Squidd (Sep 26, 2011)

Free Beer....


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## jsaronson (Dec 13, 2011)

Get rid of the off topic stuff. It is devisive and unproductive.


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## blowinstink (Sep 3, 2007)

I think sailnet is just fine the way it is . . .. Chill.


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## poopdeckpappy (Jul 25, 2006)

Dad, it ain't broke and no matter what ya do, you'll have someone or a group of someones who won' t be happy.

So keep it simple which would be unique in itself


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

They say that change is good. I think they mean pocket change.






Ya' gotta' love sailnut, warts and all.


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## jppp (Jul 13, 2008)

See Pappy's above post. The happy Sailnetter is one that takes what he needs from sailnet and ignores what is insignificant. And constructively contributes when able. . I for one have used sailnet for so much of the knowledge base it's incredible. My boat partners think I'm a genius. Let's see, I've asked and received invaluable help in polishing the gelcoat, Soda blasting and painting the hull, Working at the top of the mast, remedying the furler probs, Looking for new propane tank, buying new halyards, where to find free moorings and good anchorages, which app to use on my Ipad for navigation(I know it can't replace charts and eldridge).......and all this is the last 8 months.


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## dan catalyst (Jul 12, 2012)

you cant improve perfection..... oh wait,im too new to have formed a oppinion on improvements around here,lol.


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

poopdeckpappy said:


> Dad, it ain't broke ...


That's a matter of perspective. It ain't broke, per se. But it ain't what it used to be, either. As I told tdw in one thread: I don't think it ever can be again.



poopdeckpappy said:


> ... and no matter what ya do, you'll have someone or a group of someones who won' t be happy.


Yup.



jsaronson said:


> Get rid of the off topic stuff. It is devisive and unproductive.


No need to get rid of it. But it does need to be re-filed. Why are "I'm outta here" and other such non-sailing-related threads in the allegedly "sailing-related" forums?

There's a _reason_ I search on new posts with "no politics/off-topic." Allowing off-topic threads in the non-off-topic forums defeats the purpose.

Suggestions for improvements:

Can you please, please, *please* find a way to let users turn off that annoying chat stuff at the bottom of the page?
Is there an add-on or plugin for vBulletin that gives users the ability to ignore threads? If site moderation is going to allow off-topic stuff in the non-off-topic forums, at least give members the ability to mark threads "I don't want to see this anymore."
Other than that, none of the suggestions I'd make would likely be given consideration  (And, by this point in time, some of them would no longer do any good anyway.)

Jim


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

OT is a necessary evil. Every forum needs a trash bin. If you take away OT, then crazy people like that "person" who posts all of their religious OT junk, will post it in the sailing forums. Ditto with all of the politics.

The moderators will be overwhelemed with continuously deleting, and locking threads, and banning ID's. People will create sock puppets and keep coming back.

The forum structure is fine. The mods should just be a little more aggressive in pushing OT threads into OT where they belong. I like the Chefs a lot, but the farewell thread probably belonged there. I'm an active participant of the Zombie thread, but it belongs in OT.

Users- Police yourselves. If you hate OT chatter, then stay out of OT. Don't let thread titles get you worked up and lure you into the OT forum. Exercise some will power.


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## night0wl (Mar 20, 2006)

Sticky threads is good. I'd also say some way to promote in depth posts and a way to purge brawlers quicker. If someone is a quality poster that puts up threads on the quality level of MaineSail...but has some "cranky" issues, then I'm ok with that person (ala CardiacPaul RIP).

But if someone is a newbie and just hangs out in OT and Politics and then just pokes sticks into hornets nests elsewhere...bounce 'em


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

You kind of already do this on the "Front Page" - but you should create a featured area in the forum that rotates through the tons of great articles that have been posted here through the years. Kind of like a POTD - but with the articles.


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## JoeDiver (Feb 2, 2011)

chrisncate said:


> Yearly forum awards would be fun. The "academy awards" of S/N once a year on a certain date... best poster, worst poster/troll, best thread of the year, worst thread of the year.. the categories are endless..


On the surface, this sounds like a good, fun idea...the reality though.....

I post on a professional sports team fan forum. Many years ago, they decided to do an annual awards thingy....just like you mention above.

The first year, it was fun...some of the awards were questionable, but what the hey...it was all in good fun, right?

The next year....same thing....same people won. No matter who was the legitimate candidate....same people won. Maybe not the exact same categories, but it was the same folks. Accusations of a favorite "inner circle" started, cliques formed, feelings were hurt. The awards had planted a seed of sickness poisoning the forum. It was like a junior high popularity contest.

The third year was nasty. The nominations thread turned ugly, with comments of "why bother", "same folks always win", "unless you're a friend of the mods", "where can I buy my award"....lots of name calling, nastiness, bickering...the nomination thread was eventually locked. When the awards came, again the same people won. It became obvious there was in fact, an "inner circle" clique and this was nothing more than a bunch of douche-bags patting themselves on the back.

This poisoned undercurrent ran throughout the year. The running joke was breaking in and getting an award. Those that received awards started removing the accolades from their titles and signatures. Many squabbles turned down right ugly, and several long time posters left the forums with some spectacular "I'm Leaving" threads.

The fourth year, the nomination thread was locked and deleted after 2 days and the awards were done. No more. Someone had been mad enough to involve the team ownership...and as this is an official team fan forum, the ownership got involved...stopped it...posted in the forums that it will not continue, they love all their fans, nobody is more important than any other, all fans have equal weight...etc....

So Chris...I hear ya with the suggestion....just sharing my actual experience with that sort of thing. I'm not saying this will happen with SN....but it is a dangerous thing....could be great....could be catastrophic.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Random scrolling of photos from the galleries on the home page would be cool! The photo galleries are hardly ever viewed (I think)

Too many forums! My guess is 75% of the threads are "general" 

Nip drama in the bud!


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

Find a way to encourage people to put more info in the "about me" section that is visible when they post. Maybe add a "boat name" field as well.

Often people post questions without saying what kind of boat or what part of a particular country they are sailing


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Overall, no near death experiences here, but here are a few peeves.

Need to solve the reinstated chat box thing. Not only should we not have to continuously turn it off, it shouldn't remain on the screen in any form. The little button is annoying.

I appreciate that the site is funded by advertising, but there are substantially more bugs with it here than any other site I've used. The worst offender is the program that hangs things up and won't let a page finish loading. Otherrs seem to have figured this one out.

Delete a post, as moderator, if necessary. But don't editorialize your reason by leaving none of the original post and just the moderators chastizing comment. I recall having a post deleted once, because I had quoted the original violating post, which was deleted. However, it appeared like I violated rules as well, since all that was left was some sort of editorial comment like "removed due to forum rules". It all should have been removed.

Force all posters to pass a breathalyzer before typing.


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

Minnewaska said:


> Force all posters to pass a breathalyzer before typing.


Might as well shut it down after 3PM with this lot :laugher

I, myself, wait till 5PM (in one time zone or another)


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## blowinstink (Sep 3, 2007)

If I could make one change to SN, it would be to add a Google driven search engine equivalent to the CF search engine. I know I can google SN and my search and get some semblance of what I want, but if I want some specific info - I generally search at CF.

I am definitely in the keep OT - so you have somewhere you can boot the inevitable OT stuff (outright deleting stuff just provokes people). I haven't been in an OT thread in years (maybe the song thread). Works for me.


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## johnnyquest37 (Feb 16, 2012)

This is a great forum. Love the interaction and the topics. One suggestion - how about a "dislike" button. We can "like" someone's post, but perhaps there is a way to click onto a post that is unlikable as being too agressive or rude or incorrect or digressive.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

Delete OT/politics/religion (too much slop over into other fora)
Delete OT/politics/religion posts in other fora
Warn users that cause threads to drift for what appears to be their own amusement
Ban users that don't follow the rules
Decent search (Google is fine but there are alternatives)
Dump rep power and green boxes that don't seem to mean anything anymore and show cumulative likes
Fix the chat - the regular users get value but the current javascript implementation is badly broken


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

johnnyquest37 said:


> One suggestion - how about a "dislike" button.


You see those scales in the upper-right of each poster's post? Well it used to be you could vote up _or_ down on posts. We had members here with negative rep. power, IIRC. The Powers That Be decided that was too controversial and did away with it. Now, if you can't say something nice about somebody, you can't say anything at all.

I'm pretty sure every forum I've ever been on that had the ability to case negative votes has eliminated the feature for he same reason(s) they did here.

Jim


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## cupper3 (Jun 30, 2010)

SEMIJim said:


> .......
> Suggestions for improvements:
> 
> Can you please, please, *please* find a way to let users turn off that annoying chat stuff at the bottom of the page?
> ...


+ 2 on the chat. Yes, I know we can turn it off, but for some explicable reason, it seems to turn itself back on again time and time again. I've heard a lot of complaints about it, but no one that is jumping up and down about it being here.

Although better than a few months ago, the way the ads are served up still can cause delays. Particularly annoying is that now there are two ads (the first one shows as "Notices") in the header (area above the topic listings), and if one does not wait and presses "New Posts" at the wrong time (happens frequently), then one is connected to one of the ads. Note, I access Sailnet via the SailNet Community - Powered by vBulletin URL.


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## cupper3 (Jun 30, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> ............
> I appreciate that the site is funded by advertising, but there are substantially more bugs with it here than any other site I've used. The worst offender is the program that hangs things up and won't let a page finish loading. Otherrs seem to have figured this one out.
> ...........


I commented on this issue before, and am just reinforcing Minnewaska's observations as my personal biggest issue with Sailnet.


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## jppp (Jul 13, 2008)

How about one of those maps that show members location? I've used them on the other forums I post on. Kinda fun demographic.


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## flyingwelshman (Aug 5, 2007)

Ban me, so that I get more work done and get away from the damned computer.

I have no self-control.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

johnnyquest37 said:


> This is a great forum. Love the interaction and the topics. One suggestion - how about a "dislike" button. We can "like" someone's post, but perhaps there is a way to click onto a post that is unlikable as being too agressive or rude or incorrect or digressive.


As others have said, that used to be an option. IIRC there is still one person with a RED square/badge of honor if you will for that person. Altho some have rep'd him so he is green possibly.

Reality is, as some have said, ALL forums over the last decade or so I have been on some, they have changed. Some quickly with in months other take time, some go back per say. But one I can say, is ALL the forums were the most fun if you will when smaller. once they hit some 100K folks, even 20-30K posters, some of the banter tween some seems to go away, one does not know who everyone is etc. Then it seems to take some time to mature if you will, then they become fun for a time, more newbies show up, takes some time to train them per say, for the place to be fun again.........

Any way, I would add, get rid of the OT religion and politics, make it more of a phun topic what goes on, get rid of other R/P type topics elsewhere when they show up. These are probably two topics the can PO the most folks really fast, really quick! Next is some guys little bulldog trying to outcute a cavalier! never going to happen!:laugher:laugher

Marty


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

BubbleheadMd said:


> OT is a necessary evil. Every forum needs a trash bin. If you take away OT, then crazy people like that "person" who posts all of their religious OT junk, will post it in the sailing forums. Ditto with all of the politics.
> 
> The moderators will be overwhelemed with continuously deleting, and locking threads, and banning ID's. People will create sock puppets and keep coming back.
> 
> ...


I disagree, I am involved in a few forums that have no off topic, or at least have a "no politics, no religion" policy.

I think the politics/Off topic should be by invitation only, meaning anyone who wants admission can get in, but have to agree to a no cry baby policy. Like they do over at Anything Sailing. But would make it easier to block it out via mobile apps.

I search from a web browser with the "no off topic/no politics" as I have found the politics here to be very mean spirited, disrespectful and rude. But it is hard to ignore them using the mobile app and Tapatalk.


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## Squidd (Sep 26, 2011)

johnnyquest37 said:


> This is a great forum. Love the interaction and the topics. One suggestion - how about a "dislike" button. We can "like" someone's post, but perhaps there is a way to click onto a post that is unlikable as being too agressive or rude or incorrect or digressive.


The heck with the scales and "dislike" scores...Use the "Report Post" Triangle in the upper right corner to attention of the mods and powers that be that can do something about the aggressive, rude, incorrect and digressive...

And curtail the "I'm not being rude...I'm being 'honest' B/S....

Your wife is Fat and your Dog is ugly....I'm not being rude..I'm just being honest...


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Squidd said:


> And curtail the "I'm not being rude...I'm being 'honest' B/S....
> 
> Your wife is Fat and your Dog is ugly....I'm not being rude..I'm just being honest...


You mean, like this post:
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/875626-post8.html ?


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## bwalker42 (Jul 11, 2003)

I would like to see a space for commenting on other person's pics on their profile page.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

miatapaul said:


> I think the politics/Off topic should be by invitation only, meaning anyone who wants admission can get in, but have to agree to a no cry baby policy. Like they do over at Anything Sailing. But would make it easier to block it out via mobile apps.


Yeah - that worked out really well.

I think OT is perfect here. If you don't want to see it - it's really easy to avoid. I can even do it.

Apart from maybe filtering OT on mobile like miata says - I think it's just fine.

The "opt-out" chat thing is a pain in the butt though!


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

Jeez I go sailing over the weekend and the "What about SailNet?" threads exploded! 

OK, here're some thoughts:

Brian, I think the problem with your approach is that even good threads have a lot of dirt around the nuggets of gold. In the case of the BFS threads the nuggets and knowledge are spread across a LOT of ground. The amount of time it takes to go through all those threads puts me off doing so, and I would guess this is true for a lot of others as well. As a result it's easier to just "ask the same old question".

If we could get subject matter experts to volunteer to pull info together into articles it would make finding the info easier.


There's a way to get rid of chat??? Please make that a button on the front page of sailnet!!!

Seriously, how about a way to configure your sailnet environment. Such as blocking chat and OT so that once blocked you'd never see any reference to it?


Sailnet is a big sprawling place full of forums and sub-forums, articles and boat reviews. There's a LOT here. But the design is dated and has grown organically over the years. Is it time for a re-design that will give sailnet a more modern look and make it easier to navigate?

Along that line of thinking is it time to dump vBulletin and go to something like WordPress?

I recently made this decision for a site I manage and it was PAINFUL but necessary.

It would cure issues around ad serving and slow page loads and would help with SEO.


I would vote for killing OT, or at least killing politics and religion. But I understand your arguments for keeping them


Not only would I remove the stigma in reviving old threads I would encourage it. My boat is a 1995. A thread from 2006 about proper use of your traveler is as relevant to my boat today as it was in 2006.

And along that line as many others have said add Google Search to the site.


Adding a "Boat model/size" field is a great idea

Do things to make SailNet feel more like a community.

Revive the random gallery photos on the front page and encourage folks to post more photos of themselves, family and things they see out sailing.


Add a section where people can post sailing videos.


Would it make sense to have a SailNet party at the Strictly Sail shows the way that Latts & Atts used to? I don't think Bob ever paid a dime for those parties. I think he got advertisers/sponsors to pretty much pick up the bills.

It would be cool to meet more of the people we see online and it would provide a sense of community.

I realize all this might not be possible. Just throwing ideas against the wall.

I think SailNet is a good place, but it never hurts to ask what people would want "in a perfect world".

If you doubt there's an appetite for change, there are 33 posts on 4 pages in less than 24 hours. It tells me people feel passionate about this place and that they want it to improve.

Just sayin...


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## JoeDiver (Feb 2, 2011)

SEMIJim said:


> I'm pretty sure every forum I've ever been on that had the ability to case negative votes has eliminated the feature for he same reason(s) they did here.
> 
> Jim


They just did this over on the Mac Forums....got rid of the dislike button.

It turned into a tool where some stalked users were downvoted on every post made, no matter what it said. Many folks downvoted posts just for the fun of it. It also became a "pile on" attraction....it was being abused severely and was detracting from the forum content. There were even users with the phrase "Bring on the downvotes" in their sigs....


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## cupper3 (Jun 30, 2010)

JimMcGee said:


> J...........
> 
> 
> Sailnet is a big sprawling place full of forums and sub-forums, articles and boat reviews. There's a LOT here. But the design is dated and has grown organically over the years. Is it time for a re-design that will give sailnet a more modern look and make it easier to navigate?
> ...


I have some familiarity with WordPress and tried to implement the bulletin board (I think it was bbpress). It does not even begin to have the capabilities of vBulletin. Although SMF and PHPbb have most of the same functions as vBulletin (and are free), they too would act similarly. If one wants a full fledged board, the reality is one is pretty well stuck with one of those 3, and vBulletin, although costing $$ is still the standard.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

cupper3 said:


> I have some familiarity with WordPress and tried to implement the bulletin board (I think it was bbpress). It does not even begin to have the capabilities of vBulletin. Although SMF and PHPbb have most of the same functions as vBulletin (and are free), they too would act similarly. If one wants a full fledged board, the reality is one is pretty well stuck with one of those 3, and vBulletin, although costing $$ is still the standard.


Cupper,
I'm using WordPress with a magazine format. It works great for that purpose. But if you've found the BBS implementation lacking I have no reason to doubt you.

I still think you can address the issues with the design feeling dated and how it's grown organically. The question is how difficult is that to do within the constraints of vBulletin.

Jim


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## cupper3 (Jun 30, 2010)

JimMcGee said:


> Cupper,
> I'm using WordPress with a magazine format. It works great for that purpose. But if you've found the BBS implementation lacking I have no reason to doubt you.
> 
> I still think you can address the issues with the design feeling dated and how it's grown organically. The question is how difficult is that to do within the constraints of vBulletin.
> ...


Oh, I agree, Wordpress is wonderful both as a CMS and as a stand alone for web design. It does a lot of things significantly better than some of the commercial CMS apps. It just doesn't do bulletin board stuff well.


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

JoeDiver said:


> They just did this over on the Mac Forums....got rid of the dislike button.
> 
> It turned into a tool where some stalked users were downvoted on every post made, no matter what it said. Many folks downvoted posts just for the fun of it. It also became a "pile on" attraction....it was being abused severely and was detracting from the forum content. There were even users with the phrase "Bring on the downvotes" in their sigs....


Yup, that's what happens.

Over on another, non-sailing-related, forum, several years ago, I took a principled, but unpopular position. A number of people who intensely disliked my position took to down-voting me even when I'd written something with which they'd normally have agreed. Some of _their_ friends found that behaviour disagreeable, and started an underground campaign to vote me _up_ at every opportunity, to offset the problem.

Personally, I found it all quite humourous, mainly because I didn't give a damn about my "rep power," or whatever it was called. Site administration was Not Amused, however. That was the kind of thing that got negative voting discontinued.

In short: Give people an opportunity to be jerks, and some people will take advantage of it.

[rant]
It's kind of like the "report post" button, here. Somebody disagrees with something somebody else said, or the way they said it, and they go whining to the moderators. There are certainly valid reasons for reporting a post, but one simply not liking it, or the author's position, or the way he or she said it (barring foul language) are not one of them, IMO. You'll note earlier I commented that I had other suggestions, but they wouldn't like them? One of them, were I to make it, would be: Unnecessarily use the "report post" button and you'll be warned. Do it again and you'll be put on probation. Persist and you'll be suspended. Do it again, after your suspension is up and you'll be banned.
[/rant]

Suggestion: Add support for "[rant]" tags. Allow users to to specify, in their profile, that they don't care to see rants. If a user has that set, automatically hide from them anything enclosed in "[rant]" tags 

Btw: The up-voters won in a big way 

JIm


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I would vote to lose the rep power altogether. It cycles up just by being around for a year. I've seen posters with a dozen posts over 10 years and have huge rep power. Silly. Ever since the Like button was introduced, I don't think I've clicked rep power once.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Minnewaska said:


> I would vote to lose the rep power altogether. It cycles up just by being around for a year. I've seen posters with a dozen posts over 10 years and have huge rep power. Silly. Ever since the Like button was introduced, I don't think I've clicked rep power once.


+1. I'm all about the like button. _And_ the edit button.

In fact, one of my favorite things to do is post something really sweet and profound, get 8-10 likes, then go back a week later and edit the comment to something insipid and incendiary. Newbs wonder what the hell these likers were thinking.

Good times. Heh-heh.


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## capttb (Dec 13, 2003)

I must have missed all the sweet and profound ones.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

smackdaddy said:


> +1. I'm all about the like button. _And_ the edit button.
> 
> In fact, one of my favorite things to do is post something really sweet and profound, get 8-10 likes, then go back a week later and edit the comment to something insipid and incendiary. Newbs wonder what the hell these likers were thinking.
> 
> Good times. Heh-heh.


And I suppose that helps this be a better forum how?


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

miatapaul said:


> And I suppose that helps this be a better forum how?


Dude - it was a joke. Hence the heh-heh.

And jokes ALWAYS make a better forum.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

SN really is ok the way the is. It's also not much different then others like it.


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## cupper3 (Jun 30, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> Dude - it was a joke. Hence the heh-heh.
> 
> And jokes ALWAYS make a better forum.


Smack has a twisted sense of humor... get use to it


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

cupper3 said:


> Smack has a twisted sense of humor... get use to it


Smack has a sense of humor?

You're kidding right?


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## wingNwing (Apr 28, 2008)

But this is exactly why Sailnet is unique - you never know exactly what to expect and personalities come out a bit more than on fora that are totally about sailing information. Good mix of fun & info. 

I like the site the way it is and wouldn't change much: if you don't like chat, don't chat; and if you don't like OT, don't go to OT. I'd much rather we police ourselves on basic courtesy to each other - even crazy dudes like Smack - than have a set of restrictive rules, "one size fits ... none...".


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

Cruisingdad said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> In light of the many threads, I thought we could bounce off some ideas about improving the site. One idea recently posted was to take exceptional threads, and "stick" them in subforums of the the appropriate forums. FOr example, Maine Sail's wax and polish thread is exceptional. We could make a subforum of Gear and Maintenance and stick it to the top. THat is only one example and I am open to other suggestions.
> 
> ...


I think the most obvious improvement would be to get rid of the chat, at least until it can be implemented properly. On my smartphone, the menu sits in the middle of the screen obscuring what I'm trying to read, and the function to turn it off doesn't work! Brilliant!


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

smackdaddy said:


> +1. I'm all about the like button. _And_ the edit button.
> 
> In fact, one of my favorite things to do is post something really sweet and profound, get 8-10 likes, then go back a week later and edit the comment to something insipid and incendiary. Newbs wonder what the hell these likers were thinking.
> 
> Good times. Heh-heh.


To be a joke, it should be funny. That is not even slightly funny. 


SEMIJim said:


> Somebody disagrees with something somebody else said, or the way they said it, and they go whining to the moderators. There are certainly valid reasons for reporting a post, but one simply not liking it, or the author's position, or the way he or she said it (barring foul language) are not one of them, IMO.


Just for the record, The moderators do get quite a few reported posts in any given day. Most are spam, and most of the remainers are perceived rules violations such as a personal attack or abusive language. All are taken seriously.

Occasionally, we get a report of the content of a discussion. If the content violates forum rules, the member is contacted and asked to edit their comment or failing that the moderator will.

But we do occasionally get complaints which are disagreement on the content which is not in violation of forum rules. In that case, the person filing the report is respectfully advised that the content is not a violation and that they need to argue their case without making an ad-hominem response.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

BTW everyone, I am reading these. Just letting it run its course then I will come back with some comments.

Brian


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Jeff_H said:


> To be a joke, it should be funny. That is not even slightly funny.


Oh c'mon, Jeff. It's _slightly_ funny.

Now, without a doubt, it is totally obnoxious (which is why I've never actually done it) - and I can totally see how it would be a moderator's worst nightmare - but, on the other hand, it _could_ be employed to unleash some real hilarity.

Look, don't be grumpy at me for finding creative loopholes in The System.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Brian, I'd love to see some really _minor _changes.

Like, someone has to do the thankless job of finding out why some pages sometimes load so slowly, and if that's because of crap the ads are linking it--break 'em. The forum either goes slow or offline way more than most web forums do.

Then there's the chat button. Yeah, social networking is the greatest thing since sliced bread and single-serve cheeze. For those of us who don't want it, there should be a console preference to simply toss it overboard and never see it again. Not when our computer crashes, or the server resets, or we log in from another device with a smaller screen, just GONE. Really, how hard can that be? Aren't there any more junior high school students whipping off quick coding projects after band practice?

Stickies: Nice, but they quickly push eveyrthing "below the spread" and then everyone has to "page down" all the time. Better to close the great threads and move them off to an "archive" area, where folks can still do everything except reply in them.

And speaking of which...I would really like to see web forum software that dealt with OLD THREADS. You know, one year with no replies, and the text all gets grayer. Two years with no replies, and the thread_ locks itself _and goes grayer still. OK, maybe three years, but really? Tell the guys who write the forum software to get off their keesters and get back to work, it ain't 1985 any more!

Last of all, "Clean-up in aisle seven". Sometimes there are gaps two or three inches tall between messages or at page heads. I expect this is because I'm not seeing something that others (guests?) are being presented with, but it is just sloppy. I know, thankless work to clean it up, but perhaps you've heard the phrase "Gazelle in the park" ? It just needs to be done, for appearances sake.


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## JoeDiver (Feb 2, 2011)

smackdaddy said:


> Oh c'mon, Jeff. It's _slightly_ funny.


I laughed.....


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## BentSailor (Nov 10, 2010)

I found it amusing, though I'd hate to be a mod when a troll starts to actually use that. 

A simple adjustment would be to prevent editing after 24/48hrs unless you're a moderator. Given vBulletin is written in PHP - it wouldn't be difficult at all for a web developer to add that restriction in. It wouldn't take me long, and there are better PHP coders out there than I.

There's one suggestion for you (though I guess the "improvement" is slight and more for moderator benefit  ). The main one for me is to get rid of the chat. It is constantly turning itself back on, it makes reading on the phone a pain, and could just as easily be available via a dedicated page rather than flashing at me all the time.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

BentSailor said:


> I found it amusing, though I'd hate to be a mod when a troll starts to actually use that.
> 
> A simple adjustment would be to prevent editing after 24/48hrs unless you're a moderator. .


Cue MaineSail post in 5...4...3...


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Instead of blocking edits, which also blocks corrections, blocking deletions and allowing additions would make better sense. Additions after the original message body, or within it, either way.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Smack,

From a moderator standpoint, it is as funny as shouting 'Fire' in a crowded auditorium. But you want to hear something that is really funny, it turns out that the mod's can go back and look at your previous edits, and we can change your likes if we find you doing something like that. 

That would really crack us up, that is if we had a sense of humor, but of course, to be a mod we have none that we know of. 

Jeff


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## BentSailor (Nov 10, 2010)

bljones said:


> Cue MaineSail post in 5...4...3...


I must be missing the joke's context. Please clue me in (by PM if necessary  )



hellosailor said:


> Instead of blocking edits, which also blocks corrections, blocking deletions and allowing additions would make better sense. Additions after the original message body, or within it, either way.


Whilst possible, this would require some major changes to the underlying forum code. Hacking in a timeout is a couple of lines of code - get current time, check post's time, refuse edit if more than X hours difference. Changing the code such that only additions to the post can be made would require a new user interface and new database code to save said "appended" posts. I would say I could, given access to the forum codebase, whip up the time-based restrictions in about an hour (possibly quicker). I would put the "append to post" functionality at over a day easily (possibly two/three depending on how much testing is desired).

I don't particularly prefer my method over yours - I don't see much benefit in either personally, only for the mods who look at smack's suggestion and cringe. Just trying to provide context in the amount of effort (& hence money) required by who-ever SailNet hypothetically gets to implement the changes.


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

People should own their content, and be able to edit as desired.


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## cupper3 (Jun 30, 2010)

I think a limited time to edit works well. Most of us may want to go back to correct spelling, meaning and sentence structure, however, to alter a post many hours or days afterwards can alter the jist of the thread.

Perhaps an hour before it is etched in stone is appropriate?


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

cupper3 said:


> I think a limited time to edit works well. Most of us may want to go back to correct spelling, meaning and sentence structure, however, to alter a post many hours or days afterwards can alter the jist of the thread.
> 
> Perhaps an hour before it is etched in stone is appropriate?


How about those who don't want or desire to edit after an hour just ... don't?

Same with those who hate OT - Don't go, perhaps?

I get irritated with lots of forum nuances, however imposing restrictions on others to satisfy my own personal preferences is just plain wrong.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Sailnet pretty much has it right as-is. Off topic and political discussion is necessary because forums like this are an important element of discussion and exchange of ideas in the modern world of electronic media. Stifling responsible discussion would be a mistake and would diminish it. When someone becomes derogatory or argumentative for the sake of argument, responsible posters, who are the great majority here, just put them on "ignore." IMO the moderators here do a good job of knowing when to step in.


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## BentSailor (Nov 10, 2010)

chrisncate said:


> How about those who don't want or desire to edit after an hour just ... don't?


The issue isn't that people want not to be able to edit after a given time period, it's that the potential to abuse that feature exists in such a fashion as to make it difficult to police.

What is more likely to be reported to a moderator - a comment breaking the rules in a new thread or a comment breaking the rules in a post that was initially posted a year ago? I know there are threads on these forums years old I've gone back to read.

As I said earlier, I don't particularly care for my purposes but for moderator peace of mind, I can see being able to lock old posts from being edited as a good thing. Just look at Jeff's reaction to Smack's joke shows there is meat on that bone


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

Jeff_H said:


> Smack,
> From a moderator standpoint, it is as funny as shouting 'Fire' in a crowded auditorium. But you want to hear something that is really funny, it turns out that the mod's can go back and look at your previous edits, and we can change your likes if we find you doing something like that.
> 
> That would really crack us up, that is if we had a sense of humor, but of course, to be a mod we have none that we know of.
> ...


Now that Smack was funny 

I think generally the place ain't in bad shape.
I reckon we are just the knock-about local sailing bar.

Sometimes it's noisy, sometimes it's damn right loud and raucous. The decor is old and faded but you get used to it after a while, before too long you don't even notice it.

There are a lot of guys with big egos talking all kind of crap around the bar. Sometimes it's fun to grab a beer pull up a stool and join in, sometimes they give you the ****es and you call it a night.

Every now and then someone cops a barstool over the head and things get out of hand, eventually it get's broken up and everyone goes back to their drinks. But hey it wouldn't be a bar without a good brewhaha right??

Now there are also a few guys( and gals) in here who know do actually know alot, generally they are sat quietly on a bar stool over in the corner, often you got to buy them a beer and ask them the right questions.

Now if you guys were to paint the place lilac, put in leather swivel chairs, start serving cosmopolitans and insist the guys at the bar keep the noise down it wouldn't be Sailnet anymore. If people don't like the bar, then hey there is the Starbucks down the road.

I think as Brian has said in other forums, it is members who maketh the forum. Not much you guys can do about that. 
Chat annoys me, but if others find it useful then I can deal. 
I like the Videos subforum, Some of Drake's and others links are great, wonder how many people know it is even there???? 
I love the articles done by the Copelands etc years ago. Couldn't we do something now, like 'featured articles'. We have circumnavigators here, we have yacht designers here, people cruising with kids. I would love to see some articles like this cotent of old.

FWIW my only gripe is that I don't like Mods editing posts( I say this as someone who to the best of my knowledge has never had a post of mine edited) I just think there are better ways, that don't leave a thread reading like a chinese newspaper.


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## wingNwing (Apr 28, 2008)

I like the local knockabout sailing bar analogy; I'd love to buy you a virtual drink. Only, in my part of the world right now, that would be coffee (it's 7:15 AM here)...


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

ditto. well said, chall.


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

BentSailor said:


> I found it amusing, though I'd hate to be a mod when a troll starts to actually use that.
> 
> A simple adjustment would be to prevent editing after 24/48hrs unless you're a moderator.


Sailing Anarchy does that. I find it annoying as hell. I rarely modify my own posts long after the fact, but I have done it on occasion.



BentSailor said:


> There's one suggestion for you (though I guess the "improvement" is slight and more for moderator benefit  ). The main one for me is to get rid of the chat.


That keeps coming up...

Jim


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

BentSailor said:


> The issue isn't that people want not to be able to edit after a given time period, it's that the potential to abuse that feature exists in such a fashion as to make it difficult to police.


As one of the moderators noted: No, it's not.

Here's a really outrageous idea (in this day-and-age): Hold individuals responsible for their bad behaviour instead of punishing everybody? I know this runs counter to the current thinking that if adults are going to run with scissors, we ought to ban scissors, but it might work. 

Jim


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## LessTacksing (Mar 17, 2009)

I see no reason of getting rid of chat. Members are using it. Mine is just minmized at the bottom of the screen. I also do not use chat.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Jeff_H said:


> Smack,
> 
> From a moderator standpoint, it is as funny as shouting 'Fire' in a crowded auditorium. But you want to hear something that is really funny, it turns out that the mod's can go back and look at your previous edits, and we can change your likes if we find you doing something like that.
> 
> ...


You just funnyed.

Anyway, I knew you mods would have a solution. It seemed like such a perfect loophole that could have made the PRWG forums that much spicier.

I'm actually in the "leave the edit alone" camp. I understand Maine's point about needing to come back and modify the kinds of informational posts he puts up. I suppose I'm in the "leave SN as-is" camp. Although it would look better in lavender.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

chrisncate said:


> People should own their content, and be able to edit as desired.


History is. Editing history was explored in Orwell's 1984. Didn't work out so well.



smurphny said:


> Off topic and political discussion is necessary because forums like this are an important element of discussion and exchange of ideas in the modern world of electronic media.


There are lots of fora for those kinds of discussions. Why pollute a sailing community with that kind of divisive discussion? It has a demonstrably unfortunate impact on the on-topic conversations. Deleting OT/pol/rel wouldn't hurt the modern world of electronic media and would make SailNet better.



LessTacksing said:


> I see no reason of getting rid of chat. Members are using it. Mine is just minmized at the bottom of the screen. I also do not use chat.


I think chat serves a useful function. The implementation leaves a great deal to be desired. For those of us that use the 'new' listing of posts and open a number of tabs we end up with 'n' number of instances of the chat trying to run and the very poor javascript makes most browsers slow to a crawl. It's really a problem. There are better implementations that will satisfy both the chat users and the chat avoiders.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"and the very poor javascript" Oh, is that what's been happening?

After a recent malware attack got paste everything and I found multiple Java "bombs" waiting to go off, I pulled the whole damned thing and disabled javascript as well. Too many unlikely web sites have been infected with malware, java, javascript, all very nice but the world is safer without them.


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## JoeDiver (Feb 2, 2011)

Editing content in a locked thread to update the information is not a problem.

On another forum, I maintain a professional training program outline and guide thread, that is stickied and locked at the top. It's been there for 4 years now.

When the annual updates come out...if standards and/or program expectations have changed, I create a doc of the OP, make my changes in red with updated footnotes, and send it to a mod. They make the change, let me know, and we're good for another year....unless something else changes.

Point is, for a somewhat static thread with infrequent changes, asking a mod to make my changes for me is not a problem at all. If you're frequently making significant changes to your OP or thread, then a one off decision should be made rather than a site-wide policy change.

If Chat would just STAY turned off, I'd have no issue with it whatsoever.


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## Geoff54 (Oct 30, 2011)

'Just got back from sailing (fancy that) - you guys have been having fun. 
Here's my 2cents, for what it's worth.

How about two new categories ?

"New Sailor" - For newbies. Absolutely no flaming or insults. No such thing as a stupid question. Great place to move the "Can I sail around the world in a MacGregor 25?" and "How do I renovate a derelict Swan 55 so I can save money on rent?" type threads (ok, I exaggerate but not by much). There are some of the existing threads that have good information and could be moved there as stickies.

"Almost Sailing". Somewhere to put the "Fairwell to Sailnet" and "Zombies and Boats" type threads without consigning them to the OT sewer.

Also, it would be nice if it "Latest Posts" was larger and it was possible to page through them. I often don't visit for several days and it would be easier to catch up (I'm too lazy to go to each category).


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

> History is. Editing history was explored in Orwell's 1984. Didn't work out so well


A bit dramatic there, wouldncha say?

The whole editing debate really highlights those who would happily control all others for what they perceive as the common good, and those who believe that a persons free speech does not end when they hit send.

If a person is so worried about losing valuable information, they could always take the initiative and make a copy of the info they wouldn't want to lose in the future. I certainly do just that, as I never know when Sailnet or any other online resource might suddenly disappear.


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## ccriders (Jul 8, 2006)

This is the only forum in which I participate on a regular basis, so I would like for it to be as good as possible.
1. The only reason for stickies is that the search function is so lame as to be useless.
2. I think posters need to use the PM function when they get particularly peeved. A personal note is so much more effective than a public basting and could possibly make you a friend. And, it keeps some ugliness out of the public arena.
3. I think some form should be given to a products thread so that when one is looking to purchase a boat product it is possible to read some pros and cons about such products. I am always leary of ratings on seller/manufacturer sites, there is just too much vested interest in allowing only raves and flushing the rants. Same goes with suppliers.
4. The little chat panel gets in the way of the "next" button when multiple photos are imbedded in a post. Also, I think the chat panel should come up under "sailnet community" so that one can go there and not always have it taking space (lurking?)on the screen.
5. I think one should not be able to post unless their signature reveals where they sail and what they sail. Some posters even reveal past boats they have sailed, which often lends relativity to their comments. 
6. Finally, too many posters quote whole long posts often including photos. Doesn't anyone care about bandwith anymore? 
Thanks for the opportunity to comment.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

hellosailor said:


> "and the very poor javascript" Oh, is that what's been happening?
> 
> After a recent malware attack got paste everything and I found multiple Java "bombs" waiting to go off, I pulled the whole damned thing and disabled javascript as well. Too many unlikely web sites have been infected with malware, java, javascript, all very nice but the world is safer without them.


Have you tried NoScript? It's a little Firefox add-in that stops scripts cold. Some websites have so many scripts that I am surprised that there are not more nasty ones screwing computers.


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## BentSailor (Nov 10, 2010)

SEMIJim said:


> As one of the moderators noted: No, it's not.


Slight correction on you there, mate. The moderator mentioned that they can check the edits - they did not say it was easy. How is a moderator to know which post to check for edits out of the millions in the forum? Should they be checking the trouble-makers daily for possible edits? How much time exactly should they dedicate their volunteered effort to this ensuring folks with a chip on their shoulder don't retroactively cause grief in past posts?

I didn't claim it was impossible for the moderators to police it, I said it was *difficult*. I stand by that claim as the ex-moderator of both two blogs & a forum (neither role am I eager to claim again!).



JoeDiver said:


> If Chat would just STAY turned off, I'd have no issue with it whatsoever.


Same here. I only read the forums whilst logged in and yet the chat doesn't maintain the fact I turned it off. It's obviously a flaw in the chat add-on SailNet purchased, but until the flaw is fixed I'd rather see it go than have to turn it off every damned time I read the forums.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

BentSailor said:


> It's obviously a flaw in the chat add-on SailNet purchased, but until the flaw is fixed I'd rather see it go than have to turn it off every damned time I read the forums.


As near as I can tell SailNet didn't buy anything. It's a freebie trial version.


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

Still....



sailingdog said:


> Here are some hints for getting more out of Sailnet, especially for newbies.
> 
> *Creating a New Thread:
> *
> ...


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

BentSailor said:


> Slight correction on you there, mate. The moderator mentioned that they can check the edits - they did not say it was easy. How is a moderator to know which post to check for edits out of the millions in the forum?


I suggest it's not a problem until it's a problem. Then investigate the alleged troublemaker, and, if the allegations are found to have merit, take the appropriate corrective action. I cannot see removing useful functionality the vast majority of users will handle responsibly because a few bad actors _may_ abuse it.

Btw: I've moderated, too. We had the occasional bad actor, too. But we didn't have all _that_ much a problem with them because it was widely known that the moderation team was disinclined to suffer foolishness. New users that weren't aware of that got a couple bites of the apple and, if they persisted, they were banned. Permanently. Whiners that couldn't take the heat were politely informed it was an adult venue where contentious issues were discussed and if they couldn't handle the heat, get out of the kitchen. Everybody predicted the forum in question would be a disaster due to its subject matter. Didn't happen.

Jim


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## BentSailor (Nov 10, 2010)

I agree, it's not yet a problem. I've already said I don't particularly care if it's implemented or not. I am looking at the benefits to the _volunteer_ moderators.

I am someone that would rather go through the hassle of rigging a preventer than fix the consequences of an unexpected gybe. That is, I prefer to prevent a problem happening rather than fix the consequences of letting it occur in the first place. Putting myself in moderator shoes, this perspective would lead to my suggestion. Just a different perspective is all.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Well instead of discussing the dress code...

I noticed yesterday that Sailnet "still yet and again" simply isn't handling cookies and log-ins properly. Usually if I go to an existing thread page, the site recognizes me and logs me in autmatically. But sometimes, if I go to the home page or to SailNet Community - Powered by vBulletin the site plays dumb. Either I have to log in again (manually) OR oddly enough, if I click on "todays posts" I get whisked away to THAT page, which does recognize me.

One page doesn't recognize me, another page does. That tells me there's something wrong with the code on the site--not the cookie on my computer. Just a nuisance, but again "Cleanup in Aisle Seven!"

After that by all means, let's go back to arguing about the dress code. I say no bow ties, unless they match your socks. Or kilt.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

chrisncate said:


> Still....


cnc - I think you ought to put a link to that post in your sig and direct people to it all the time. It would ensure they get more out of SN.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

SEMIJim said:


> I suggest it's not a problem until it's a problem. Then investigate the alleged troublemaker, and, if the allegations are found to have merit, take the appropriate corrective action. I cannot see removing useful functionality the vast majority of users will handle responsibly because a few bad actors _may_ abuse it.


Bingo.

Look, there are all kinds of ways to wreak havoc on a forum. Just because I pointed out one of them doesn't mean the mods should go ballistic and start pulling good functionality. They're smarter than that anyway.

Challo nailed it. SN's got its quirks and could definitely stand some technical improvements - but it's a damn fine forum.


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## flyingwelshman (Aug 5, 2007)

One of the most common themes in this thread about how to improve SailNet is that there is too much OT on SailNet - particularly in the General Discussion (sailing related) forum.

So a non-sailing related thread ('Improving SaiNet') is started in the General Discussion (sailing related) forum in order to solicit suggestions for the improvement of the site.

Many posters add to the thread (up to about 85 posts by now - 86 with this one!) complaining about OT threads in the General Discussion (sailing related) forum.

My head is going to explode!


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Whether any particular member's heads explode is very much off-topic here. So, your message must be saying that you PREFER to see and keep OT comments in threads?

Or...? (VBG)


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## flyingwelshman (Aug 5, 2007)

hellosailor said:


> Whether any particular member's heads explode is very much off-topic here. So, your message must be saying that you PREFER to see and keep OT comments in threads?
> 
> Or...? (VBG)


I admit there was a certain amount of irony in my previous post.


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## JoeDiver (Feb 2, 2011)

I just turned chat off.....again......


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

hellosailor said:


> Well instead of discussing the dress code...
> 
> I noticed yesterday that Sailnet "still yet and again" simply isn't handling cookies and log-ins properly. Usually if I go to an existing thread page, the site recognizes me and logs me in autmatically. But sometimes, if I go to the home page or to SailNet Community - Powered by vBulletin the site plays dumb. Either I have to log in again (manually) OR oddly enough, if I click on "todays posts" I get whisked away to THAT page, which does recognize me.
> 
> ...


Personally I'm not even in favour of matching socks 

HS - I have asked Admin to have a look at this.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

LessTacksing said:


> I see no reason of getting rid of chat. Members are using it. Mine is just minmized at the bottom of the screen. I also do not use chat.


It takes up 20% of the screen on my already small phone screen.. Utterly offensive when trying to view SN from a mobile browser.

I think we should keep chat for those who use it but allow those who don't the ability to TURN IT OFF in our user control panel....


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## sawingknots (Feb 24, 2005)

Sailnet is what it is and is likely to remain as such,I joined this site a couple of years ago in hopes of maybe learning a few things and perhaps helping/sharing what little I know,now i have to wonder if i've done either,I don't know/see what changes would make the site any better,It is what it is,am I leaving?probably not entirely but I can tell you sailnet is not on my to do list anymore,ok bj have your field day!


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

tdw said:


> Personally I'm not even in favour of matching socks
> ...


Socks? ¿Qué son "socks"?


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

hellosailor said:


> ...
> I noticed yesterday that Sailnet "still yet and again" simply isn't handling cookies and log-ins properly. Usually if I go to an existing thread page, the site recognizes me and logs me in autmatically. But sometimes, if I go to the home page or to SailNet Community - Powered by vBulletin the site plays dumb. Either I have to log in again (manually) OR oddly enough, if I click on "todays posts" I get whisked away to THAT page, which does recognize me.
> 
> One page doesn't recognize me, another page does. That tells me there's something wrong with the code on the site--not the cookie on my computer. Just a nuisance, but again "Cleanup in Aisle Seven!"
> ...


Same thing happens to me from time to time.

Also, Safari and Chrome act a bit differently on SN. For example, Chrome doesn't seem to recognize if I have looked at a thread unless I hit the reload button.

Oh, and what ever happened to that "free beer" suggestion near the top of this thread????? Are the mods working on that??????


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

While I come here to mentally be involved in sailing, having some expert advice is a real plus. I have a lifetime of experience, but never kid myself into thinking I'm expert at much. I consider this a dockside chat. Of course, we should always research any info gathered on a forum before accepting it as fact. However, it does seem that several of those experts post much less than previously. Some were arrogant and probably aren't missed much on balance. I'm sure you know who they are. However, I would try to reach out to them and ask them this question directly. Did you keep email addresses? You may get better info that they are willing to share in public.

Maybe its just inevitable evolution of a forum, but maybe you would learn something more helpful. When we lose an employee, the exit interview is often worth hearing.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

flyingwelshman said:


> One of the most common themes in this thread about how to improve SailNet is that there is too much OT on SailNet - particularly in the General Discussion (sailing related) forum.


The point many of us have made is that the angst and anger that develop in the OT/pol/rel threads have an adverse impact on the sailing discussions elsewhere on the board. Delete the OT areas, police OT and hijacks in the sailing areas and the board will be better for those of us that want to talk about sailing.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

SVAuspicious said:


> The point many of us have made is that the angst and anger that develop in the OT/pol/rel threads have an adverse impact on the sailing discussions elsewhere on the board. Delete the OT areas, police OT and hijacks in the sailing areas and the board will be better for those of us that want to talk about sailing.


I don't buy that. But I guess we all have our opinions.

Sure there's some spill-over every once in a while if two dudes who have been going at it for months over Mitt Obama's record suddenly disagree about the best brand of shackle. They bring that long building angst into the sailing discussion - but it's extremely rare.

OT is fine as it is. And I say that as one that posted almost exclusively there for my first few months here - and now hardly ever go in. So I'm kind of an expert.


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

SVAuspicious said:


> Delete the OT areas, police OT and hijacks in the sailing areas and the board will be better for those of us that want to talk about sailing.


If it survives. Delete the OT areas and members will go elsewhere to talk about non-sailing-related stuff. "Good," you say? Not if you're an advertiser on SN and, therefore, not if you're trying to sell advertising space on SN. Not if you're SN and part of your sales derive from SN viewers clicking on SN's own adverts. This is what _really_ killed SNs mailing lists: No advertising revenue to be gained from them. This is really the reason SN has the chat stuff: To keep eyes on the site, not out of the goodness of their heart.

Once you understand what SailNet _is_, then you'll understand why some things are the way they are. Nearly every decision flows from what SN is to its owners, and part of what it is is a revenue enhancement tool.

Jim


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

This blaming of OT as the problem is really off base imo.



> The point many of us have made is that the angst and anger that develop in the OT/pol/rel threads have an adverse impact on the sailing discussions elsewhere on the board. Delete the OT areas, police OT and hijacks in the sailing areas and the board will be better for those of us that want to talk about sailing.


It's only a problem for those who can't or won't handle other folks (possibly) differing opinions. Many others, as well as myself seem to have no problem whatsoever reading differing opinions without demanding these areas be shut down. Again - simply don't go in there, and use your ignore feature if your eyeballs get soiled by some opinion from some poster you don't want to hear from. Why is this so hard to do exactly?


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

SEMIJim said:


> If it survives. Delete the OT areas and members will go elsewhere to talk about non-sailing-related stuff. "Good," you say? Not if you're an advertiser on SN and, therefore, not if you're trying to sell advertising space on SN. Not if you're SN and part of your sales derive from SN viewers clicking on SN's own adverts.


Then SailNet needs better sales people. Making the case that people posting really care about sailing and are in fact that portion of the sailing community that do sail, that do own boats, that do turn to SN for solutions to problems, and that SN draws not only those in need of counsel but those that can provide it is easy. In point of fact, OT/pol/rel makes the sales job more difficult since it dilutes the value of hits.

I'll advertise on SN if OT/pol/rel is dropped.


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## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

I think you should put out a "Sailnet Moderators Calendar"..... I think that "Fuzzy" guy is.... Dreamy....









Hope you guys are doing well....!!!! Haven't seen you out yet this year Jeff! Glad you guys are on TapaTalk now....

All the best,
C2


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"I'll advertise on SN if OT/pol/rel is dropped. "
Consider, if the folks who are OT are dropped, there's less eyse and hits overall. Ah, you say, but the quality of the hits is improved. Maybe not--you don't know who's going on to buy what, do you? And then, there's the job of replacing those eyes and hits.

It would take a bold publisher to throw away readers before there was a plan to replace them. Or to convince advertisers the loss was an improvement.

So they're OT, so what? Put your ads on the pages where you think they belong, before the eyes you think will buy. If there are customers for you here, now, and you're not advertising because some folks aren't followingthe dress code, you're still ignroing the folks you seem to think you CAN sell to. Aren't you?


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

SlowButSteady said:


> Same thing happens to me from time to time.
> 
> Also, Safari and Chrome act a bit differently on SN. For example, Chrome doesn't seem to recognize if I have looked at a thread unless I hit the reload button.
> 
> Oh, and what ever happened to that "free beer" suggestion near the top of this thread????? Are the mods working on that??????


"belch" ..... as fast as I can Slow, as fast as I can.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

tdw said:


> "belch" ..... as fast as I can Slow, as fast as I can.


4X would work....


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

craigtoo said:


> I think you should put out a "Sailnet Moderators Calendar"..... I think that "Fuzzy" guy is.... Dreamy....
> 
> View attachment 11749
> 
> ...


How sweet ....


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

SVAuspicious said:


> Then SailNet needs better sales people. Making the case that people posting really care about sailing and are in fact that portion of the sailing community that do sail, that do own boats, that do turn to SN for solutions to problems, and that SN draws not only those in need of counsel but those that can provide it is easy. In point of fact, OT/pol/rel makes the sales job more difficult since it dilutes the value of hits.
> 
> I'll advertise on SN if OT/pol/rel is dropped.


Hey, would you advertise on a site that responds to the needs of it's readers, asks for their opinions on how to improve the site, has created flexible access options to allow customized content for everyone from pure sailors to sailing political debaters, and has dedicated forums for various boat manufacturers, regions, repair, maintenance, 
even forums especially for women and cruising with children!
Sure you would!
So buy an ad.

Go find another sailing site with THIS kind of variety of content, THIS kind of flexibility, THIS kind of variety and wealth of info, and THIS kind of responsive respectful moderation and administration.
I'll wait.
Done yet?

I'll make it easy on you- there isn't one.

Think OT here is bad? Go check out The Bilge on the WoodenBoat forum, General and Political Anarchy on SA, the Lounge on YBW The... oh yeah, they completely ban dissent and controversy on CF, so there's nothing there... SBO may be an exception, and if the site was easier to use I might use it more often, but IMO it doesn't have the depth of info and the breadth of input that you see here. After you have been thoroughly mauled, apalled enthralled, blackballed and keelhauled in the viper's nests mentioned above, it may modify your opinion of the comparatively tame and often informative OT litter box we have here.


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## BentSailor (Nov 10, 2010)

tdw said:


> How sweet ....


Sweet Fuzzy Jesus! That post needs a health warning 

I don't think I want to know how/why you found that picture


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

hellosailor said:


> Consider, if the folks who are OT are dropped, there's less eyse and hits overall.


I have a (very) small business. My advertising budget is pretty small. I don't care about hits. I care about relevant hits. OT isn't relevant. If OT is deleted do you really think the portion--maybe most, maybe not--of the membership that are here for sailing will care? For the real sailors that wallow in OT do you think they won't stay here for the sailing and just take their vitriol elsewhere?

I'm not going to pay for views based on OT/pol/rel. It's my money and my risk. I advertise where I think I will get the greatest return.

BTW, nice to know I'm not the only one that follows YBW.


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

SVAuspicious said:


> If OT is deleted do you really think the portion--maybe most, maybe not--of the membership that are here for sailing will care?


"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." - Santayana

Or those who don't know it in the first place.

SailNet has suffered departures, some of them quite regrettable, for as much--and less.

I'm sure they exist, but I don't know of a _single_ extant site, for _any_ of the interests for which I'm a member, that does not have an OT forum. Not a one. There is a reason for that, and it isn't because the sites' operators and moderators are particularly fond of OT forums. Take it from me: For the most part, they're not. But they like membership.

On one site, I do not recall which, where a similar debate took place a moderator or admin wrote "We tried that. The OT stuff instead popped-up all over the site. So we tried to enforce the no-OT rule. It was a moderation nightmare and we lost too many members." IIRC, they lost members for enforcing the non-OT rule _and_ for failing to enforce the no-OT rule.

They put OT back.

But you won't be convinced, so I'll not debate the issue with you any longer.

Jim


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

SEMIJim said:


> I'm sure they exist, but I don't know of a _single_ extant site, for _any_ of the interests for which I'm a member, that does not have an OT forum. Not a one.


To my knowledge Cruiser's Forum doesn't have an OT forum. CF gets more traffic than SailNet.

I've watched other sites die due to OT.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

SVAuspicious said:


> To my knowledge Cruiser's Forum doesn't have an OT forum. CF gets more traffic than SailNet.


I'd argue that point and, if the numbers do prove the case I would argue that it is irrelevant since much of that traffic is redundant- much of that traffic is the typical bluehair CF member re-visiting threads they forgot they read, or reopening the site because they forgot they opened it.

if you want artificially induced peace and heavy censorship, CF is your kind of place.
Remember,they banned Bob Perry- an interesting move for a site that supposedly is all about cruising. if you want to spend your advertising bucks there, knock yourself out.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Auspicious, it sounds like you are saying "I only make menswear, so I'm not going to advertise in any publication that has women subscribers!"

So what, you're not paying for those eyes. And the advertising salesman should know it. (Along with the fact that some women buy shoes for some men.)

If you only want to advertise to folks who will buy your product, you may want to just send out mail to previous buyers. Any other advertising pool _will _be partly incorrect for you. And that's regardless of price-per-click in any case. Your argument holds no water, the assumption is simply wrong.


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## sawingknots (Feb 24, 2005)

everyone in this world deserves/requires some degree of respect,others not so much,I would strongly suggest that everyone should be required to post their real name and address,if you say it you should be prepared to back it up.ken owens 7247 tomotley rd. maryville tn.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"everyone should be required to post their real name and address"
Why, so you can be stalked, harrassed, and robbed?

Oh, yes, that's happened to folks who posted too much information on the internet too.

Pay your money and take your choices. Just remember, there's a witness protection program for a reason.


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## BentSailor (Nov 10, 2010)

SVAuspicious said:


> To my knowledge Cruiser's Forum doesn't have an OT forum. CF gets more traffic than SailNet.


Indeed. That might be why nearly everyone I talk to about that site finds it so stifling, most of whom I have met on this site. As was pointed out, they banned Bob Perry, not the actions of a sailing/cruising forum I wish to emulate.


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## sawingknots (Feb 24, 2005)

hellosailor said:


> "everyone should be required to post their real name and address"
> Why, so you can be stalked, harrassed, and robbed?
> 
> Oh, yes, that's happened to folks who posted too much information on the internet too.
> ...


I'll take my chances!!,I can usually have a good one on one conversation with just about anyone be it on a dock/bar etc,why should a online dialog be any different. p.s. I don't have a witness protection program


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Identity theft is one reason not to give your name and address, while exposing enough other personal info that it wold be easy. Property theft is another.


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

sawingknots said:


> everyone in this world deserves/requires some degree of respect,others not so much,*I would strongly suggest that everyone should be required to post their real name and address,if you say it you should be prepared to back it up.ken ************ rd. maryville tn.*


And here is why the edit feature needs to remain usable by members without expiring..

People will often come to their senses and need a brisk edit, and it's nice to be able to do that..


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

CF is also a place where you can get banned for simply repeating word for word the official State Department opinion (travel warnings) about some of the less civilized countries where sailors might go. Their "dress code" isn't just PG-13, it is "Nanny Safe". 

And then again, even if that's somehow "better"...why would people come to Sailnet if it was the same as some other place they already were?


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

*Cruisers FOrum*

Hey Guys and Gals,

I am in the middle of moving to the boat and soon will be unavailable to discuss this, but want to take the chance while I can.

Cruisers FOrum is moderated with a bunch of good people. THeir philosophy is different from ours, that is all. And what I don't understand is that if the moderation and their philosophy is so bad, then why do so many of us frequent between the sites (including me)? They keep it strictly on target while we try to let it work itself out within reason. SA just lets what happens, happen. SO what? If you are more comfortable in one site versus the other, spend your time there.

I am happy here. I like what we do the best. I like CF and SA for what they do too. THey are good people and I have nothing but respect for them. THe two sites have respected each other over the years. I have never understood complaining about anoter sailing site when we are all getting run over by jet skis??

Cant we all enjoy each site for what it is? THis thread is about what to do to make SN better. We are going to make changes. Lets stay on target where it should be.

Brian


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

I think Yall should just leave it the way it is......What are you gonna do, Improve, the graphics? It's an open on going discussion about sailing stuff. Pretty simple. It would be boring if we all agreed on everything....and I'll back that up, what are you gonna do about it?


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## BentSailor (Nov 10, 2010)

*@CruisingDad:* I have no problems with CF being the way it is - their website/forum, their rules. I'm not even saying they are bad, only that some folks here find the atmosphere there stifling. Some of those same folks find SA over the top. It's not a matter of what is good or bad, but what we as forum members _prefer_. Kind of like how I don't black liquorice, but don't think it is a "bad" confectionary - just not one I wish to have.

I wouldn't even have referred to CF if it weren't offered as the example for why we should (must?) get rid of the OT forums. I don't spend time there, so I don't see it as the forum to emulate. Sorry if this was an unhelpful response - I'm far from trying to cause inter-forum issues!


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Everyone,

I think this discussion has been awesome. THere have been some extrordinary contributors here. I simply cannot name them all. Capt Aarron (love it, to the point no nonsense and wonderful POV), SV Auspicious (thank you and lots of great suggestions and interest... you have put hours of thought into this as is apparent), Smack (bite me... and for those that dont know, Smack has long been one of SN biggest supporters), minnekawsa (always pragmatic and good suggestions... A GREAT CONTRIBUTOR HERE!) ,bljones (very to the point and doesnt hold back punches, great input and thankis), chrisncate (thoughtful and really interested in helping and giving of his time), hellosailor (solarstick lover... snicker, always enjoy your posts), semijim (great point of view and also tell sit like he sees it), bubblehead (always supportive), nightowl, joediver (you know I spent years in Dallas and went to Bryan Adams, right?), denise (got to meet you one day!!! always enjoy your suggestions) and rob, cupper (I know who to go to for technical stuff!), Marty (has bulldog envy but also a long time SN supporter and good friend) and FLying welch (love the candid remarks and enjoy your posts) miata, squidd, my friend Jim M (great suggestions... a good thoughtful SN companion and always supportive and a voice of reason), WIngNWing (well J - you know how I feel and look forward to having that cold one my dear friend and I AM BUYING!!), Bent (always a great POV and a reasonsable gentleman... miss our discussions in OT), Smurphny (enjoy reading your thoughts both inside this thread and outside... good posts), CHallo (my friend, thank you as always, always had my back and hope we can meet one day, good supporter here that makes us who we are), Geoff (rememner by PM, will try to do my best), ccriders (great suggestions btw and thoughtful - glad you participate here primarily and we all enjoy your posts), Mainesail (one of the most knowledgeable posters and memebers I have ever known and we are fortunate to have him here), sawingknots (hopefully we will find a middleground), Slow (for your frequent posts and effortss, thank you), all of you... thank you. THank you for taking the time to care enough to make our site better. You do realize that, right? It is OUR site? We make it for what it is.

I am going to run many ideas by the SN owners. Hopefull everyone realizes that me and the other mods are nothing but volunteers that do this to better our site. We get nothing out of this but the satisfaction that we are trying to help and make a difference. In that way, those of you who have responded are absolutely no different. You took the time here to try and give your thoughts and ideas. We are all in this boat together. 

You know, with only a very few exceptions (none of whom can post on this site anymore), I have yet to meet a sailor on here who I would not love to sit down and have a beer or coffee with. I dont agree with them all. THey certainly (snicker) dont agree with me. But this place is filled with lots of great people whose different personalities make this a fun place to sign in and hang out. Thanks again to everyone. My boat is always open to come by for a drink. I might even make you a Catalina lover....

Brian

PS A very special thanks to SV Auspicious who has really dedicated a lot if his time here to make this better. We dont always agree on sailing related stuff, but for the record, I have tremendous respect for him. He gives a lot of himself to make us (SN, the forum, and especially the many members who sign on) a better place. Certainly the same can be said for Mainesail and the many others who do this only because they care.

PPS I am shutting down this thread. We've reached the point that I cannot absorb any more (actually, probably more than I can absorb). I am going to try and make some changes here and will try and explain some things I am doing. Give me a bit of time as I am moving back to go FT Cruising with family and next two weeks will be 'interesting'.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Once again, to everyone...

THANK YOU!!!​
Brian


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