# Fixed or swing keel, which is better?



## TSOJOURNER

I''m new to sailing and am looking at boats to buy. Along with the many other questions that go with this, I was asked if I wanted a fixed, swing, or centerboard keel. Wanting something that I might want to trailer, I thought swing. I was told there is a difference between the way these sail. Can anyone tell me what differences there are and why? Thanks...Tim


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## Guest

First of all your question seems to be about appendages. In principle appendages keep a boat from making leeway. They come in many shapes and sizes. Keels are supposed to be a fixed appendage and centerboards generically are moveable appendages that occur on the centerline but centerboards are just one kind of moveable appendage. In more detail:

Keels:
The earliest form of a keel was simply the backbone of the boat extending through the bottom planking. (Like a Viking ship) That works OK with running and reaching sails but when you try to point toward the wind you slip side wards at great speed. As sails and rigs were invented that allowed boats to point toward the wind the keel was extended below the boat either by planking the hull down to a deeper backbone or by adding dead wood (solid timber below the backbone. A planked down keel permitted the space between the planking to be filled with heavy material (originally stone) which served as ballast keeping the boat from heeling. After a while it was discovered that there were advantages to bolting a high density cast metal ballast to the outside of the deadwood and interior ballast dropped out of fashion. 

Full keels:
These earliest keels pretty much ran from the point of entry at the bow, to the aft most point of exit at the stern. Those are full keeps in the fullest sense of the word. 

They have some advantages; they theoretically form a long straight plane which keeps a boat on course better (greater directional or longitudinal stability). If you run aground they spread out the load over a larger area reducing the likelihood of damage. Once really planted they keep the boat from tipping over fore and aft. They are easier to haul and work on. You can spread out the ballast over a longer distance and so they can be shallower. You have a greater length to bolt on ballast so it is a theoretically sturdier and simpler connection.

They have some disadvantages; they operate near the surface and near the intersection of the hull and keel which are both turbulent zones. They also have comparatively small leading edges, and the leading edge is the primary generator of lift preventing sideslip. Because of that they need a lot more surface area to generate the same lift. Surface area equates to drag so they need more sail area to achieve the same speed. As a boat makes leeway water slips off of the high-pressure side of the keel to the low-pressure side of the keel and creates a turbulent swirl know as a tip vortex. This is drawn behind the boat creating drag in a number of ways. The longer the keel, the bigger the vortex, the greater the drag. So they need more sail area again to overcome this drag. To stand up to this greater sail area the boat needs more ballast and a stronger structure, which is why long keelboats are often heavier, as well. (Of course more sail area is needed to overcome that weight as well- once again weight adding weight) They tend to be less maneuverable. 

Fin keels:
In my book, based on the traditional definitions that I grew up with, any keel that is less than 50% of the length of the boat on the bottom of the keel is a fin keel. Fin keels came into being in an effort to reduce drag. Cut away the forefoot or rake the stem, as well as, move the rudderpost forward and rake it aft and pretty soon you have a fin keel. 

Today we assume that fin keels means a keel with a separated rudder (skeg hung or spade) but in fact early fin keels had the rudder attached (in a worst of all worlds situation)

Fin keels with separate rudders seem to be the most commonly produced keel form in the US these days. (I could be wrong, there is a resurgence of full keels these days)

Fin keels have some advantages as well. They have less drag as explained above so they typically make less leeway and go faster. You can get the ballast down lower so in theory they are more stable for their weight. They are more maneuverable. They take better advantage of the high efficiency of modern sail plans and materials.

They have some disadvantages as well, many of these have been offset or worked around by modern technology but at some level they are still accurate critiques. They have less directional stability than long keel boats so the tend to wander more under sail. Since directional stability is also a product of the dynamic balance between the sail plan and underbody, in practice they may actually hold a course as well as a full keel. In general though you can expect to make more course adjustments with a fin keel. It is sometimes argued that it takes less energy to make these corrections so a fin keel may also require less energy to maintain course. This I think is a product of the individual boat and could lead to a debate harder to prove than the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin. 

Fin keels are harder to engineer to withstand a hard grounding and when aground they are more likely to flop over on their bow or stern. (Although in 39 years of sailing, I have never heard of anyone actually experiencing this.) Fins typically have deeper draft. They are easier to pivot around and get off on a simple grounding. 

Shoal keel
A shoal keel is just a keel that is not as deep as a deep keel. Today the term seems to be applied mostly to shallow fin keels. Shallow full keels seem to be referred to as shoal draft boats. (You guys notice that as well) A shallow fin is a tough animal to classify. I really think it has few of the advantages of either a deep fin or a full keel and has many of the worst traits of both full and fin. This can be partially offset by combining a shallow fin with a centerboard, which is a neat set up for shoal draft cruising.

Bulb Keel:
A lot can be done to improve a shallow fin. One way is to add a bulb. A bulb is a cast metal ballast attachment added to the bottom of the keel. They concentrate the ballast lower providing greater stability and sail carrying ability than a simple shallow keel. Traditionally bulbs were torpedo or teardrop shaped. They have been re-contoured to provide some hydrodynamic properties. Remember tip vortex from above. Shallow keels need to be longer horizontally than a deeper fin in order to get enough area to prevent leeway. This means that it would generate more tip vortex and more drag than a deeper keel. The bulb creates a surface to turn the water aft and prevent it from slipping over the tip of the keel thereby reducing tip vortex. This does not come free since a bulb increases frontal area and surface area. 

Wing keels 
Wing keels are a specialized type of bulb keel. Instead of a torpedo shaped bulb there are small lead wings more or less perpendicular to the keel. These concentrate weight lower like a bulb and properly designed they also are very efficient in reducing tip vortex. There has been some discussion that wings increase the effective span of the keel when heeled over but this does not seem to be born out in tank testing of the short wings currently being used in production sail boats. Not all wings are created equal. They potentially offer a lot of advantages, but they are heavily dependent on the quality of the design and I really think that many wing designs are not really working to their potential. 

Keels that are not really keels:
Swing keels are ballasted centerboards and drop keels are ballasted daggerboards that are ballasted beyond what it takes to submerge themselves. They are really forms of centerboards. More on them in with centerboards.

Keels that are keels that move.
I said that keels do not move. That used to be true. We now have canting keels, which can be pivoted from side to side. They are best designed to be light fins with heavy bulbs that can be canted to windward increasing the effectiveness of the righting aspects of the keel. Just one problem, a keel canted to windward losses efficiency to prevent leeway so they really need other foils to keep leeway in check. I frankly do not like the idea of a canting keel. I think canting keels are too complex and potentially problematic. 

Centerboards:
Centerboards are appendages that can be raised and lowered on or near the centerline of the boat. They can rotate up into a trunk or rotate below the boat. Daggerboards are a type of centerboard that raises vertically or near vertically in a trunk. Swing keels are a type of rotating centerboard that actually contains a substantial portion of the boat''s ballast. They may be housed in a trunk like a Tartan 27 or 34 or hung below the boat like a Catalina 22. In the case of the Tartan 27 or 34 they are more frequently referred to as a Keel/ Centerboard (abbreviated k/cb) A swing keel is intended to act as a fin keel when lowered and allow some sailing in the partially raised position. My biggest problem with swing keels is that most do not have a positive lock down. In an extreme knockdown they can slam up into the hull greatly reducing the boat''s stability and can damage the hull. This is actually a pretty rare occurance and usually requires big wave action combined with a lot of wind, but I personally have experienced that phenomina while sailing out in the Atlantic. They tend not to sail as well as a fin keel but if you play the drop keel, down on a beat and up on a run, they can do reasonably well.

A drop keel is a daggerboard that actually contains a substantial portion of the boat''s ballast. These are easier to lock down but can be more easily damaged in a grounding. They generally have better shape than a swing keel and can be more robust, but not always are. They can have a bulb and be almost as efficient as a fin keel. 

Other appendages: (besides the rudders)
Bilge keels (for our English friends) are a pair of keels (usually fins these days) that emerge on either side of the boat and angle out. They offer some advantages. If you let the boat dry out the boat can stand on the two keels and wait the next tide. There are dubious theories about increased efficiency since one is vertical like a good leeway resisting foil and one is canted like a good stability inducing foil. They do allow shallow draft though but boy are they a pain to free once aground. 

Bilge boards (for the scow guys), are a pair of centerboards that angle out of each side of the boat. They work well on scows but I''ve never been able to really figure out scows anyway. Seriously, You raise the windward board and lower the Leeward one on each tack and because they are close to vertical they can be small and efficient. I still don''t get the scow thing.

Last but not least- Lee boards. Leeboards are foils that are bolted to the side of the hull like on Dutch Jachts and Herreshoff Meadowlarks. Phil Bolger''s sharpies use them a lot as well. They have some advantages but they drive me nuts. They are vulnerable in docking and ideally are raised and lowered on each tack also. Some are raised to be hinged feather so they do not need to be raised.

So that''s about it. The final is tomorrow- multiple choice and essay.

Jeff


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## RichH

Scow thing.....
Skimming dish hulls (scows) etc. are meant to be sailed fairly over on a heel (design heel @ approx. 25degrees) so that much of the flat **underwater** sections are raised clear of the water, greatly minimizing wetted surface area thus significantly reducing drag while simultaneously gaining waterline length and dynamic form stability at high speed (Imagine what would happen if one half of the wetted surface area drag factor magically disappeared from a keel boat !). When sailed correctly, the middle of the flat undersurface of the hull is virtually raised clear of the water (as well as everything else to windward), the boat balances essentially against the immersed leeward surface of the hull (imagine a high speed catamaran flying only one hull). If the boat had a centerboard (has 2 bilgeboards), with the middle of the flat bottom being raised out of the water, the centerboard would be partly out of the water also; therefore, the board(s) is relocated to a position under the remaining wetted area. The bilge boards are not parallel but angled (approx. 10 degrees) towards windward to gain hydrodynamic lift .... two boards down give LOTS of drag. These are PLANING hulls, even the 38ft. A-class scows are adept at planing (upwind and downwind); and, until the advent of windsurfers were THE fastest mono-hulls. Once a scow ''breaks free'' on a plane then crew weight can be shifted to windward to gain max-advantage of the sail plan .... but while keeping ''most'' the hull bottom relatively free of dragging in the water. These are NOT stable boats at all, ...until onto a full plane when they reach "dynamic" stability. 
Down side of a scow is that they can quickly disappear entirely into the backside of a wave and instantly become a high speed submarine! Once you''ve raced scows, fixed keel boats seem very boring and slow ... just ask Buddy Melges. The difference in sensation is like the difference between a Ferarri and an Oldsmobile. When one considers that these variant designs were established 110 years ago (1890s) and are still raced with few "shape" changes, etc. .... than you''ve got to admit that they are a VERY successful design. 
Take a scow, remove the bilge boards, add a keel and a sharp bow = Melges-24! ... of which the ''breadboard" was probably an old M20 scow refitted with a keel and a sharp bow. 
For those who dont know what a scow is: www.ilya.org. Classes: A E C M20 (now Inland20), M16, MC ... ice boats with hulls!
;-)


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## Diva27

Keel-centerboards seem a natural solution for sailors who want the windward performance of a deep-draft keel with the shoal-waters capability of a, well, shoal-draft keel. The problem has always been that wedding a thickish keel that houses ballast with a thinnish foil or plate that retracts inside it creates all kinds of problems with interference drag. This occurs in a fluid wherever there's a significant change in angle of a surface. You also have the drag problems of water being forced up into the centreboard slot on the high-pressure side, which necessitates flexible closure plates to minimize. Also, unless the board is shaped with an arc for a trailing edge, when it's fully lowered, there's a huge length of exposed slot churning up drag behind it, which again requires a close plate arrangement.


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## sailingdog

Diva-

You really shouldn't be reviving a thread that's been dead for six years. It is considered bad net etiquette to do so.


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## Catsailor07

Just buy a catamaran. 
Problem solved.

John


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## Rockter

My long keel is still there, 31 years on.
Long live the long.


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## l0keman

I know this is a dead thread, but it’s still useful as I wish I had this info before I bought mine.

PROS:
Keeps the COG lower when tailoring, 
needs a less complicated trailer, 
easier to put in and take out of water since it requires less depth.


CONS:
Unless you trailer the boat often, most pros are useless
Pin will eventually fail
Keel cable hums loudly
Keel bangs on boat hull and eventually mashes a soggy hole in it
OR
You lock keel in down position and run shallow causing great damage to hull
OR
keep the cable just tight enough it never bangs hull and your wench tears out eventually
cable has too be replaced every so often… very easy on my boat (takes 10 minutes)
hull maintenance is MUCH harder b/c the swing keel has to come off for everything… cleaning, painting, just to look inside (so snugly fit in there, you can’t just raise and lower to get better view/access).
You can’t just raise the keel and save yourself if you start to run shallow (by the time you go below and raise the keel, it’s always too late


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## sailingdog

You missed on major pro of a swing keel... good shoal draft capabilities while still allowing good upwind performance in deeper waters.


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## l0keman

what do you know about water ballasted boats?


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## sailingdog

I'm not a big fan of water-ballasted boats because water is a relatively lousy ballast medium. 

First of all, it isn't particularly dense, especially when compared to the same mass of lead. Second, most water-ballasted designs have the water ballast tanks relatively high up, making the ballast even less effective than it would be otherwise. This leads to the boat having a higher center of gravity than it would if it were properly designed with a lead or cast iron keel. 

Third, some smaller boats that are water-ballasted, are exceptionally unstable if you forget to fill the water ballast tanks, and that can lead to disaster if you've forgotten to fill the tanks. There are a couple of cases of water ballasted MacGregors capsizing because the tanks weren't filled or weren't filled completely, and in at least one case led to some deaths. 

Yes, I know water-ballast is used on a lot of high-end racing boats... but that is for a very different reason. It is used to allow the captain to shift ballast from one side of the boat to the other, essentially a replacement for human rail meat. These boats also have a rather large keel that provides the bulk of the stability for the boat, where the smaller, trailerable, water-ballast designs do not. 

If shoal draft and high stability are important, get a trimaran or catamaran or a stub-keel with centerboard, rather than a water-ballasted design. 

I also think it is a bit foolish to invite the ocean on-board when a better design would not require it.


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## l0keman

Thanks, Very informative. I was looking around at large trailer sailors and saw a couple that were water ballasted. Wanted to know the skinny b/c, of course, every company that incorperates it into thier ships is gonna swear by it.


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## TrueBlue

A water ballasted keel, weighs 64 lbs per cf, the same as the medium it's suspended in. Lead on the other hand, weighs 708 lbs per cf. Which do you think is more effective at stabilizing the boat?


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## eherlihy

There's a good thread on water ballasted boats here:


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## sailingdog

Boats that are water-ballasted often lose a lot of interior stowage space or cabin space to the water ballast tanks. A cubic foot of water only weighs 60-64 lbs. A cubic foot of lead weighs about 705 lbs. That means for a boat to have 1000 lbs. of ballast, you'd need about 16 cubic feet of water or 1.5 cubic feet of lead—big difference.


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## artbyjody

TrueBlue said:


> A water ballasted keel, weighs 64 lbs per cf, the same as the medium it's suspended in. Lead on the other hand, weighs 708 lbs per cf. Which do you think is more effective at stabilizing the boat?


But some could be worried about lead poisoning?...

Seriously though...trailer sailing is something that is actually considered more of day sailing - in which case, does it matter if it gets you out there and you can drag it home and it uses water ballast? For all the slack that M's get - if properly used according to instructions, it is no different than any of the 'normal' boats. Practically almost all boats can capsize, roll over etc if operator doesn't handle their boat properly.

Interestingly enough - historically speaking, boats of 100+ years ago - used water ballast and cargo weight as ballast. They managed for several hundred years criss crossing oceans - quite successfully.

Amazingly - old is new technology once again....


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## surfnfx

Freighters use water ballast all the time. How do you think we got zebra mussels in the Great Lakes. I like my shoal keel. But I also like full keels to as they maybe slower they are more comfortable in larger sea (25-35 ft) or more.
Sailors die when they use regular ballast type or water type.
You have rules for your boats performance. So do not blame the ballast. If you have too much sail up and you get knocked down (micro burst are what I call a exception) then you were not paying attention to the conditions, wind or the tell tail wind over water bursts and cloud conditions. Like I told a friend that bought a water ballast boat ...go slow and learn what the boat tells you.
I have run aground a few times because of my mistakes (a unmarked channel btw while gunk holing). I missed a channel by a few meters. Plain and simple and go slow and learn about your boat and what she tells you. When in doubt come about 180 degs if you have the room and can. Or fire up the iron sail and drop sail or the rear hook to stop you going forward. Yes I have two winches on the aft deck and two small Danforth anchor for when I do beach myself on purpose to do some work on the undersides on a soft bottom ( zinks / paint / thru hull fittings ) as the tide goes out (cheaper than a haul out) or to use in tight gunk holes tied off to trees. And no it is not a small boat...Maple leaf 48. Well may be small to some of you.


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## denverd0n

Wow. Talk about the zombie thread that won't die. First post 13 years ago. Then revived seven years later only to go dormant again. Now revived yet another six years later. Perhaps this thread will still be getting posts in 2020. I'll have to check back then to see.


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## truewin

Yeehah! 4 years later - 2018 - I am glad I found it and that people keep adding to this thread - lots of new and interesting information added over the years - whoever says don't post to old threads can stick it up their blowhole then walk the plank.


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