# Avoid New Bern



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I'd just like to recommend to all ICW cruisers to avoid the side trip to New Bern, NC. The town has, collectively, become very expensive, and seems to be, with a few exceptions, making it abudantly clear that they don't like cruisers. Here is the final nail in the coffin, however: we were there LAST January (2008), received a bill for property tax this (2009) spring on our boat, from both the City Of New Bern, and Craven County, NC, telling us property tax was past due. Our hailing port is Annapolis, we live in Easton, and pay property tax in MD on the boat. I called New Bern, and after much arguing, they agreed that if we could prove tax had been paid on the boat elsewhere, they would take us off their tax roll. Last week, I received another tax bill, this time also threatening attachment of the boat if they are not paid. I've discussed this with other cruisers, and found at least one other who has been exposed to this. But, here is the amazing part-the other skipper I spoke with anchored out while they were in New Bern! We were at a marina, so we knew how the tax people knew we were there, at least. The anchored out guy figures they must have local police going out and getting regisitrations, or even hull numbers, off of vessels! If I had a lot of time and money, I'd probably try to get this into a Federal court, as localities in 2 different states are involved. As it is, we will just make it a point to never allow one thin dime of our money to ever to be spent in New Bern again, right down to not even doing business with anyone who owns a Hatteras Yacht.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

I'd try contacting BoatUS. They have a legal department that deals with this sort of thing. Are you a member?


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

All kinds of NC boaters try to avoid the tax due by putting different ports on their transom and being anchored out and trying to avoid the tax man by not engaging in marina contracts. As a result the boat tax guys wanna see PROOF that you are not paying a low tax or no tax elsewhere while keeping the boat in NC for the bulk of the year. This is true in MANY places in NC and just as true in VA from personal experience. We've had similar tales here from NY and California. Bottom line...they are gonna go after you as a bureaucracy...and "once is not enough". Send registered mail....keep copies...and keep fighting. Just don't think New Bern is unique.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

BoatUS would probably be interested in the facts, so I'd contact them.


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## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

I'd be interested in how long the boat stayed in their juristiction. This seems like a trend where local governments are going after property tax on high value vehicles like boats and airplanes in several parts of the country. The information missing from the stories I've heard is the duration of these visits which result in a tax bill. Its a troubling trend for sure.


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## NauticalFishwife (Dec 12, 2007)

Isn't there a 90 days rule in some states? If you keep your boat there for over 90 days-you can be taxed.


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## NCC320 (Dec 23, 2008)

nezperce333,

Have they changed in MD? I was under the understanding that in MD, you paid a stiff one time tax when you purchased/registered the boat, but annually thereafter, there was no property tax on boats in MD. In NC, you pay a relatively small tax when you purchase the boat and then a property tax every year at the same rate assessed against cars or houses. The marinas are required to submit to the tax office a listing of boats in the marina on January 1...that's how they know about you, and as others have said, they will expect tax to be paid. I have a couple of boats registered in NC that I keep in the adjoining county (where I pay the property tax on these items), but the local county doesn't know this and I get nasty notes from them every year saying they found that I haven't paid taxes on these NC registered boats...of course a note saying where I pay the taxes takes care of the situation after they check it out.


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## witzgall (Jan 9, 2007)

New Bern is a GREAT place to visit. What you are dealing with is happening all over it seems, I get this from reading here at Cruisersforum. I don't see how you can translate this to the entire town of New Bern not liking cruisers. How long did you have your boat there?

If it was a short time, perhaps a copy of the ships log, receipts etc showing you moved on, would be sufficient.

Chris


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## nk235 (Apr 8, 2007)

When you say all over do you mean just along the intra coastal because in the northeast this does not happen at all. I have nothing against that town/area but who in there right mind would want to deal with that harrassment.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

You want to stay out of the whole southeast then nk235. Personal property tax is assessed annually everywhere.


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## nk235 (Apr 8, 2007)

camaraderie said:


> You want to stay out of the whole southeast then nk235. Personal property tax is assessed annually everywhere.


Wow did not know that. I didn't mean the "harrassment" to be having to pay property taxes but having the water police coming after you with tax levys after you have been there for a day or two.


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## Flybyknight (Nov 5, 2005)

We are very fortunate here in Delaware; there is no property tax.
I truly believe that the sentiment of the country (eg. TEA) is at a 
point where a tax revolt is simmering.

Dick


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

NK235...They don't. They generally walk the docks and take pictures in January and review marina records. If you stayed the summer in the state...they'll come after you. Some places have a 90 day rule. 
They do NOT go after people just passing through. You will note that the OP says he was there in January. What he doesn't say is how long he was there. My experience in a marina in NC is that we did not have ONE single boat pull up to our docks in the month of January. No one GOES to New Bern in January. Betcha the devil is in the details...but VERY few boats are on the move in NC from December to March.

Flybyknight...agree with you. Wish Delaware had some decent sailing instead of being power boat country!


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## nk235 (Apr 8, 2007)

camaraderie said:


> NK235...They don't. They generally walk the docks and take pictures in January and review marina records. If you stayed the summer in the state...they'll come after you. Some places have a 90 day rule.
> They do NOT go after people just passing through. You will note that the OP says he was there in January. What he doesn't say is how long he was there. My experience in a marina in NC is that we did not have ONE single boat pull up to our docks in the month of January. No one GOES to New Bern in January. Betcha the devil is in the details...but VERY few boats are on the move in NC from December to March.
> 
> Flybyknight...agree with you. Wish Delaware had some decent sailing instead of being power boat country!


Cam - Didn't mean to sound rude or bad about NC. Was just going off what the OP said but your right - its all probably in the details. Have a good weekend.


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

from what I read of the OP, NC is charging him AGAIN THIS YEAR and he has't been there this year. They will let him off the hook if he shows he is paying property taxes elsewhere. But there are a LOT of states where there is NO property tax collected. Seems only MD, VA, NC & SC do it. The New England states, the Great Lakes states, Florida don't do it.

So stay away from the Southeast states in the winter, screw them


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"They will let him off the hook if he shows he is paying property taxes elsewhere."
xort, that would be illegal in all 50 states and probably considered criminal extortion, misfeasance, and abuse of office--all likely state and federal felony offenses.
A state can't simply send you a tax bill and say "prove you don't live here", they have to have some initial basis for venue and jurisdiction.
Since we don't have all the original facts (how long the boat was where) there's no point in speculating, but if things were really so simple--there'd be an eager lawyer (or AG) and a tax man going to jail.


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## NCC320 (Dec 23, 2008)

xort

I don't think MD charges an annual tax. Our C22 is titled and was kept in MD for a number of years (2001-2005). At that time, as I said earlier, we paid a significant tax when registering the boat and never were assessed or required to pay an annual property tax. The boat is now in NC (where I do pay property tax), but I never get a bill from MD....I question whether the original poster actually pays an annual property tax on the boat in MD. Anyone from MD who knows what the real deal is there now?


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

MD does not have an annual tax but it does have a sales/use tax that applies ONE time if you use the boat in the state for 90 days....
Boating Law - Boat Tax 2007 Maryland Overview from Waterway Law

Lots of exceptions and fine points...so read the article if your boat will be in MD for 90 days or more. Here's a state by state East coast overview:

From Boating Law - Vessel Sales Tax - From Waterway Guide 2008 

  * State*
  * Sales tax on boats?* *   Personal property tax?  * * Alabama*  2%  No *  Connecticut*  6%  No (but higher registration fees)   *  Delaware*  No  No *  District of Columbia*  No  No * Florida*  6%  No * Georgia*  4% + local  Yes *  Maryland*

  5%  No *  Massachusetts*  5%   Yes * Maine*  5%  Yes * New Hampshire*  $10 to $1761.40 depending on size and propulsion with some exemptions  No * New Jersey*  7%  Fee based on value of boat * New York*  4% plus local  No * North Carolina*  3% with $1,500 cap  Yes *  Pennsylvania*  6%-7%  No * Rhode Island*  No  No * South Carolina*  5% with $300 cap  Yes *  US Virgin Islands*  No   No *  Virginia*  2% capped at $2,000  Yes


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

xort said:


> from what I read of the OP, NC is charging him AGAIN THIS YEAR and he has't been there this year. They will let him off the hook if he shows he is paying property taxes elsewhere. But there are a LOT of states where there is NO property tax collected. Seems only MD, VA, NC & SC do it. The New England states, the Great Lakes states, Florida don't do it.
> 
> So stay away from the Southeast states in the winter, screw them


That's correct, the last statement I received from them is for 2009, not 2008, and I have not been there at all in 2009. What they appear to be trying to do is to simply carry the property forward from year to year. I will most likely not ending up paying them for 2009, once I have proven to them that the boat has not been there, but even the billing seems unjustified.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

witzgall said:


> New Bern is a GREAT place to visit. What you are dealing with is happening all over it seems, I get this from reading here at Cruisersforum. I don't see how you can translate this to the entire town of New Bern not liking cruisers. How long did you have your boat there?
> 
> If it was a short time, perhaps a copy of the ships log, receipts etc showing you moved on, would be sufficient.
> 
> Chris


The boat WAS there for 5 months in 2008. As far as the town not liking cruisers, it is pretty easy to see- The Sheraton Marina literally doubled its rates a couple of years ago, and raised minimum LOA footage billing for slips to 40 feet, in slips which were actually only 30 feet in length. The city is now writing tickets to boats who overnight at Union Point (town docks). To be fair, that was always the policy there, but they used to be laid back about it, give warnings, etc. I have spoken with a couple of people who tied up, went into town to spend money at the hardware store (nice, and an exception to the town disliking cruisers), then restaurant and bar, to come back late and find an $85 ticket on their boat. Same Police who wrote the ticket are unable to keep panhandlers out of the downtown area, though. Incidentally, when I complained to the manager of the Sheraton about the increase in rates (I have been through there MANY times before), his INITIAL response was "Why don't you just leave?" -there had been no real confrontation or anything of that nature. We did leave, and went across the river to BridgePoint marina, which is less convenient to downtown, but more reasonably priced and friendlier. Had I spent ONE night at The Sheraton, the bill would have been $125. for a 30 foot boat. At the time, they charged $4./ft./night plus $5 for hookup. I also encountered a general lack of friendliness in New Bern, not like it used to be. Also it is expensive, at least for The South: we wanted to spend a night in a hotel while the boat aired out from some fresh varnish, and The Comfort Suites there quoted us $149.95 plus 13% (!) tax for a regular room, or $199.95 plus 13% for a suite. We stayed in the BridgePoint hotel, by the marina, which was a bit rundown, but clean, at $90. plus tax. The hotel rates, of course, do not reflect anything against cruisers, just an example of how expensive New Bern has become. New Bern USED to be a great place to stop, but over roughly the last couple of years, as far as I am concerned, it has gone downhill. Used to be, they liked boaters, now they only want people who are looking for a $500K condo, and the type of tourists who want $200./night rooms, $30. fish dinners, and $6. vodka tonics.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

I call that the "Tayana 52" influence. It has happened more than you can imagine. They come in to the quiet little towns of America with their big boats, Bose speakers blasting Barry Manilow, little white captain hats on and socks pulled up to their knees, then tie up to the public docks not wanting to pay a thing. The towns figure they gotta stop it or before long even the Telstars will move in. Once the Telstars come... phew, property values are going to plummet.

- CD


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

At least the Telstars and Tayanas move from harbor to harbor... unlike the Dockolina you have... 


Cruisingdad said:


> I call that the "Tayana 52" influence. It has happened more than you can imagine. They come in to the quiet little towns of America with their big boats, Bose speakers blasting Barry Manilow, little white captain hats on and socks pulled up to their knees, then tie up to the public docks not wanting to pay a thing. The towns figure they gotta stop it or before long even the Telstars will move in. Once the Telstars come... phew, property values are going to plummet.
> 
> - CD


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## chuck711 (Dec 25, 2002)

*You hold that thought of New Bern, North Carolina*

New Bern is a great place to boat!! It was once the capital of North Carolina. It's like a mini-Savannah, full of 300 year old buildings. Quite an interesting place.
I'm a cruiser who came here in 2005 after a couple of years in the Caribbean. It's known as one of the friendliest cruising spots on the eastern seaboard as well being very economical place to live. The area is predominately retired persons. Taxes are cheap and a 40 foot slip rents for $320/month. That includes safe floating docks, a yacht club house, free ice and with a lot of nice people you'll have a good time. There is a large anchoring area and free docks for day use.
It host's the Southern Cruisers Rendezvous every year at the Sheraton. And for a small fee ( $25) you have all the top cruising gurus giving you their help on cruising. 4 day affair http://www.ncgam.com/
I remember attending one of the meet and greet parties at the NCGAM . The mayor spoke of how he loved seeing all the cruising boats they were full of people who liked to have fun. When have you ever heard that said about a bunch of people who didn't pay taxes yet were welcomed? 
Yes the Hotels are expensive. Isn't that why we have boats? The Sheraton was a few years ago going to the boat/condo vision. It didn't happen and the rates have dropped. 
So nezperce333 you hold that thought of New Bern. You seem in a minority&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"The boat WAS there for 5 months in 2008."
There's your answer and it is pretty much the same in all states.
From NC's Basic Facts on Vessel Registration and Titling
"If a vessel registered in another state is brought into North Carolina for over 90 consecutive days, the registration must be transferred to North Carolina"
Unless your vessel is USCG documented, which you haven't said.

So once you tolled the requirement that your boat be NC registered, the state would consider your boat to "theirs" until the time that you transferred the registration and title to another state. Renewal bills get issued routinely all the time--again, not just in NC but pretty much everywhere. Until it transfers out or gets removed from the rolls one way or another--they're going to keep after you.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Nez,

Having been to New Bern a number of times over the last 20 years what you are seeing is the evolution of a small quaint out of the way undicovered fishing village to a center of commerce and a resting stoppping point of interest for ICW travelers as well as a new base for yachting. On the Chesapeake I can rememeber when St Michaels was a quaint vilage, Cambridge was a run down economically depressed town. Both have changed over time. St Micheals is still nice to visit, but we wait until. summer is over or before it begins. Cambridge is a great destination now with nice restaurants and full service marinas, so I would not say its growth has been bad for it.

As far as the bill you were presented for residency tax. It appears you deserved it. You tried to circumvent the rules by keeping it 5 months and not paying taxes? I can imagine if I was a full taxpayer in NC in New Bern how I would feel about you doing that and trying to escape the taxes I was paying. 

I will continue to enjoy stopping over in New Bern, marveling how they have grown and still maintain their charm and quaintness. I find it a great place to go.

Dave


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## mepsnbarry (Aug 2, 2007)

*documented vs registered*



hellosailor said:


> "The boat WAS there for 5 months in 2008."
> There's your answer and it is pretty much the same in all states.
> From NC's Basic Facts on Vessel Registration and Titling
> "If a vessel registered in another state is brought into North Carolina for over 90 consecutive days, the registration must be transferred to North Carolina"
> ...


To use the analogy of a car, USCG documentation is like the title, not the registration.

Even if your vessel is documented and "in transit," some states will hassle you unless you have some sort of state registration. We spent two weeks in Florida once aboard a Washington State documented vessel, and the skipper got a $60 ticket for not having any state registration. The Fish & Wildlife guys actually lay in wait on the ICW, looking for stickers.

If you stay on the hard, with an ugly project that's not recognizable as a boat, the NC tax collector won't find you. (Don't ask how I know.)


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"To use the analogy of a car, USCG documentation is like the title, not the registration"
Bad analogy, since there is no equivalent of USCG documenation for cars, and more so because car registration and titling are both tied together at the state level. When you register a car, you also title it in the same state. Without the state title, you can't register it.

In this case specifically, the exemption for documented vessels--as opposed to state titled ones--is part of the NC code, as federally documented vessels are legally different from "ordinary" vessels that carry a state title and registration. <<some states will >> Yup. Which is why I was quoting and referring only to the NC code here, since that's the problem.

Vessel was in their venue long enough to become "theirs" by state and federal law. Once that happens, no other state will challenge or stop a NC seizure order or other steps to keep after the boat. If it isn't fixed with the folks in NC, they could very well order an arrest of the vessel. What's that fourth law of thermodynamics? A bureaucrat, once set in motion, remains in motion? Forever?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Hello sailor.. I think I missunderstood you...a car isn't necessarily titled and registered in the same state...My title to my car is in WA..but it is registered here in AZ.....


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## witzgall (Jan 9, 2007)

*New Bern Loves Cruisers*

Not one of your points below leads me to a conclusion that the town does not like cruisers. The Sheraton - geeze, it is a freaking Sheraton! I just stayed at the Holiday Inn in Solomon's MD this past weekend, for the same rate!!! Did you expect reasonable rates? Instead of complaining about the rate, did you ask for a lower one, nicely? I do this, and you would be surprised how often the answer is yes. Hotels all around are raising their rates, as the corporate traveler has dropped off of the face of the earth.

The ticket, well, that sucks for them, but was there a sign? Betcha there was. I would like to see the town have a first come first served transient dock like Oriental.

Looks like you owe the tax, simple as that. That is not a New Bern thing, it is an NC thing. Sucks, but it is true. Again, not New Bern.

I have to ask, with a 30 foot boat, why did you not just anchor out? I would not have paid $120 a night either, but you do have a choice. There is a great anchorage just past the railroad bridge.

I will admit you are right about the hardware store. Try the other retailers downtown, they are just as nice and helpful.

If you need a slip and a room at the same time again, try Northwest Creek Marina, to see if they have a transient slip available. The Hurricane restaurant has a few rooms above you can rent. Timeshares too, if you need lots of space.

Chris



nezperce333 said:


> The boat WAS there for 5 months in 2008. As far as the town not liking cruisers, it is pretty easy to see- The Sheraton Marina literally doubled its rates a couple of years ago, and raised minimum LOA footage billing for slips to 40 feet, in slips which were actually only 30 feet in length. The city is now writing tickets to boats who overnight at Union Point (town docks). To be fair, that was always the policy there, but they used to be laid back about it, give warnings, etc. I have spoken with a couple of people who tied up, went into town to spend money at the hardware store (nice, and an exception to the town disliking cruisers), then restaurant and bar, to come back late and find an $85 ticket on their boat. Same Police who wrote the ticket are unable to keep panhandlers out of the downtown area, though. Incidentally, when I complained to the manager of the Sheraton about the increase in rates (I have been through there MANY times before), his INITIAL response was "Why don't you just leave?" -there had been no real confrontation or anything of that nature. We did leave, and went across the river to BridgePoint marina, which is less convenient to downtown, but more reasonably priced and friendlier. Had I spent ONE night at The Sheraton, the bill would have been $125. for a 30 foot boat. At the time, they charged $4./ft./night plus $5 for hookup. I also encountered a general lack of friendliness in New Bern, not like it used to be. Also it is expensive, at least for The South: we wanted to spend a night in a hotel while the boat aired out from some fresh varnish, and The Comfort Suites there quoted us $149.95 plus 13% (!) tax for a regular room, or $199.95 plus 13% for a suite. We stayed in the BridgePoint hotel, by the marina, which was a bit rundown, but clean, at $90. plus tax. The hotel rates, of course, do not reflect anything against cruisers, just an example of how expensive New Bern has become. New Bern USED to be a great place to stop, but over roughly the last couple of years, as far as I am concerned, it has gone downhill. Used to be, they liked boaters, now they only want people who are looking for a $500K condo, and the type of tourists who want $200./night rooms, $30. fish dinners, and $6. vodka tonics.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

chef2sail said:


> Nez,
> 
> Having been to New Bern a number of times over the last 20 years what you are seeing is the evolution of a small quaint out of the way undicovered fishing village to a center of commerce and a resting stoppping point of interest for ICW travelers as well as a new base for yachting. On the Chesapeake I can rememeber when St Michaels was a quaint vilage, Cambridge was a run down economically depressed town. Both have changed over time. St Micheals is still nice to visit, but we wait until. summer is over or before it begins. Cambridge is a great destination now with nice restaurants and full service marinas, so I would not say its growth has been bad for it.
> 
> ...


During the time frame i have the real problem with, the boat was not there for even ONE day! The 2008 tax for the 5 months I do understand their point of view on, my point of view, on the other hand, was that I had paid a local (not state) tax on it in MD, where the boat was for 7 months. Now New Bern also wants tax for 2009. The boat has not been there for 1 day in 2009!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

witzgall said:


> Not one of your points below leads me to a conclusion that the town does not like cruisers. The Sheraton - geeze, it is a freaking Sheraton! I just stayed at the Holiday Inn in Solomon's MD this past weekend, for the same rate!!! Did you expect reasonable rates? Instead of complaining about the rate, did you ask for a lower one, nicely? I do this, and you would be surprised how often the answer is yes. Hotels all around are raising their rates, as the corporate traveler has dropped off of the face of the earth.
> 
> The ticket, well, that sucks for them, but was there a sign? Betcha there was. I would like to see the town have a first come first served transient dock like Oriental.
> 
> ...


This is a response to the quotes here, not just to Chris's comments.
As far as the Sheraton goes, note that while I was quoting their $120. rate for marina tie up, I was quoting Comfort Suite's rate for a hotel room. Sheraton was higher still, at $179.95/night for a standard room, no balcony, no riverview, rates go up from there to $495.00/night. The rates may have changed, as they are now a Hilton. They have completed a remodeling, also. As far as prices go, we live in a mostly free market economy, so I know it is theirs to charge whatever they choose, and ours to take it or leave it, my point was only that New Bern is no bargain any longer. Someone mentioned the cruising club, I think you will find that it no longer meets in New Bern. I believe that stopped a couple of years ago, which was also about the time I think New Bern started its decline. Bear in mind that New Bern is around 20nm off the ICW, so you use a half day up the Neuse and back to the ICW, too. I would be interested to know how many people posting pro New Bern rhetoric here have commercial interests in the town. Even a guy who owns a house there wants to see his property go up in value, something less likely to happen if the town becomes less popular. I've been going to New Bern since 1977, felt that it's best years were actually in the late 70s, then it had an economic decline in the 80s, but not something that hurt cruising. From 1990-ca2006, I would have HIGHLY recommended it: nice small town, uncrowded, reasonably priced, no obvious "revenue enhancement" efforts going on. Now, I doubt I ever go back. It is to each cruiser to do as they choose, that will be my choice.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

nezperce333 said:


> Someone mentioned the cruising club, I think you will find that it no longer meets in New Bern. I believe that stopped a couple of years ago, which was also about the time I think New Bern started its decline.


That is inaccurate. The Southbound Cruisers Rally was last held last fall. It was put on for several years based on the personal efforts year round of my friend Dick Giddings. Dick had to retire from the effort and there will be no rally this year as he was unable to find another upaid volunteer willing to work year round to make it a success. It has nothing to do with New Bern or any supposed decline which I entirely disagree with. I have ZERO personal interest in New Bern. It just happens to be one of the nicer side trips off the ICW and I recommend any cruiser with a few days to kill, take advantage of the side trip and visit a very nice town.


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## Skipper519 (Nov 16, 2007)

*A note on tax laws*

Caveat, I'm not a tax attorney nor even an attorney, so the following comment is not based upon an education in the law but experience. Tax law is different from other types of criminal law in that if a taxing authority has enough information to send you a tax bill, e.g. income, property, pet, etc. At that point you have to prove your innocence even if the taxing authority has no more information than your name, address, and on what you owe the tax. This is not to say I am against legitimate taxes, high or low. But in what other criminal proceeding do you have to prove your innocence based on an unsubstantiated accusation?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

camaraderie said:


> That is inaccurate. The Southbound Cruisers Rally was last held last fall. It was put on for several years based on the personal efforts year round of my friend Dick Giddings. Dick had to retire from the effort and there will be no rally this year as he was unable to find another upaid volunteer willing to work year round to make it a success. It has nothing to do with New Bern or any supposed decline which I entirely disagree with. I have ZERO personal interest in New Bern. It just happens to be one of the nicer side trips off the ICW and I recommend any cruiser with a few days to kill, take advantage of the side trip and visit a very nice town.


I stand corrected on the Southbound Cruisers Rally. I thought there was to be none in 2008. I don't know how many trips you have made to New Bern, I have made 20 or more, I have recommended it many times in the past, and I still would have up until maybe 2006, or even early 2007. Those who have not been there more recently than that don't know the place. For each person to decide on their own, of course, but I cannot, in good conscience, recommend it. To each, his own.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Skipper519 said:


> Caveat, I'm not a tax attorney nor even an attorney, so the following comment is not based upon an education in the law but experience. Tax law is different from other types of criminal law in that if a taxing authority has enough information to send you a tax bill, e.g. income, property, pet, etc. At that point you have to prove your innocence even if the taxing authority has no more information than your name, address, and on what you owe the tax. This is not to say I am against legitimate taxes, high or low. But in what other criminal proceeding do you have to prove your innocence based on an unsubstantiated accusation?


I agree with you. In other situations, it is "innocent until proven guilty", with the tax man it is "guilty until you can prove yourself innocent." BTW-one of my favorite scenes in any movie is in POPEYE, when Robin Williams ties up to a town dock, and the tax man comes up and greets him with a "tying up to the wharf tax", "dinghy under the dock tax", "asking the tax man a question tax", and "new in town tax". I am NOT associating that with New Bern, btw, just found it amusing, and painfully close to reality, in some regards.


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## NCC320 (Dec 23, 2008)

nezperce333,

If you don't like New Bern don't go there!.....but just because you had a bad experience (or got caught on the property tax issue) don't screw it up for others. Let them visit and if they don't like it they won't come again. There seems to be a really mean side to your posts on this issue. And despite what you say, lots of people really like the place. Again, why are you so vicious on this? Perhaps it's cruiser rage.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

NCC320 said:


> nezperce333,
> 
> If you don't like New Bern don't go there!.....but just because you had a bad experience (or got caught on the property tax issue) don't screw it up for others. Let them visit and if they don't like it they won't come again. There seems to be a really mean side to your posts on this issue. And despite what you say, lots of people really like the place. Again, why are you so vicious on this? Perhaps it's cruiser rage.


I guess no need for me to keep saying it- I've been there probably twenty times. Won't go back again. As I go up and down the ICW, Ches. Bay, and the tributaries, other boaters have always recommended/not recommeded various ports to me. I recently had someone volunteer that they not like Oriental, NC, which I like about 100x more than New Bern at this point. They won't go back to Oriental, I won't go back to New Bern. Like I said before, to each his own. I don't know what cruiser rage is.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"Tax law is different from other types of criminal law "
Stop right there, skipper. Tax law IS NOT CRIMINAL LAW. It is neither civil nor criminal law, it is what is called "administrative" law and that's a totally separate category, arguably created by political weasels who badly need to be rode out of town on a split rail.

Administrative law (aka code) is a category on its own. Never try to make sense of it, or appraise it, by comparison with civil or criminal law.

As to proving you are innocent rather than having a presumption of it? That's not universal. That's even a problem in Louisiana, because that state was French sovereign territory and follows the Napoleonic Code for legal precedents--not English common law, as the original colonies did. LA does many things differently from the other 49 states as a result, i.e. it has parishes not counties. And in the real world, outside of the US? You'll often be presumed guilty until proven innocent.

That our tax laws and administrative laws in the US violate our own standards in general, is a whole other question.

But nez just doesn't seem to get it. These are the laws, this is how they are written and enforced EVERYWHERE in the US, probably including his home state. Keep your boat in one state for 91 days, move to another state for 91 days, move to a third state...and legally you may be required to register AND TITLE the boat, and pay taxes on it, in ALL THREE STATES IN ONE YEAR. And then whichever was the last state in which the boat was caught, will pursue it "forever" until it is again _legally removed from _their rolls and put into another state.

Anyone who doesn't get it or can't believe it, really needs to buy an hour with a lawyer and get straight on this. US States are still called "sovereign states" and that basically means each of them can lay claims on you once you cross the border. Including tax levies and seizures. By all means, protest, disagree, and hold tea parties. But either you pay up and render unto Caeser, or you try to duck them, and risk paying up much more when they catch you.

They don't catch everyone. Just most folks, most of the time.


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## LittleMissMagic (Oct 13, 2006)

nezperce333 said:


> I agree with you. In other situations, it is "innocent until proven guilty", with the tax man it is "guilty until you can prove yourself innocent." BTW-one of my favorite scenes in any movie is in POPEYE, when Robin Williams ties up to a town dock, and the tax man comes up and greets him with a "tying up to the wharf tax", "dinghy under the dock tax", "asking the tax man a question tax", and "new in town tax". I am NOT associating that with New Bern, btw, just found it amusing, and painfully close to reality, in some regards.


Thats one of my favorite scenes too, remember what happened to the tax man in the end though!
I visited New Bern in 2007 and did find it to be a nice town, but if this is an example of thier taxation practices, I might stay away in the future. 
I am just curious about what a personal property tax constitues. Is it an annual assesment of value? We pay an ad velorum tax here in Alabama, is this the same thing?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

LittleMissMagic said:


> Thats one of my favorite scenes too, remember what happened to the tax man in the end though!
> I visited New Bern in 2007 and did find it to be a nice town, but if this is an example of thier taxation practices, I might stay away in the future.
> I am just curious about what a personal property tax constitues. Is it an annual assesment of value? We pay an ad velorum tax here in Alabama, is this the same thing?


I don't know what an ad velorum tax is. Personal property tax is, as you surmised, a tax levied on the assessed value, generally of big ticket items. On a percentage basis, it is generally higher than real estate tax. BTW- your boat may have been built in New Bern, do you know? Back in what I consider to be the good old days of New Bern, Clark Boat Co. had a factory there. The founders of Clark Boat Co., Bob and Coral Clark, owned Clark Yacht Sales in Bridgeton, NC, almost beside the old New Bern-Bridgeton Hwy. 17 Bridge (that was not where the factory was, it was on the other end of town), when they retired, they bought the Harvey House, and lived on the upper level of it, with the restaurant and bar below rented out to other people. I think there were more San Juans built in Kent, Washington, but New Bern was the site of their East Coast factory.


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## chuck711 (Dec 25, 2002)

*What kind of money are we talkin About*

This 30 footer. What was your tax bill?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

chuck711 said:


> This 30 footer. What was your tax bill?


$134.00, which was inclusive of something called a recycling fee. Interesting also, since even when the boat WAS there, I had no recycling bin or anything like it. I think, and I don't have the bill in front of me at the moment, that this recycling fee was $36. leaving only $98. as tax. Of course, it has never been about the amount with me, more about the principle. From the way hellosailor explains it, one could quite legally be required to pay these taxes in 3 different jusidictions over the course of a year. IF my boat was larger, newer, and more valuable, I could end up with huge bills, under that paradigm.
I'd be interested to know what the guys with multimillion dollar boats, which always seem to registered in Lewes or Rehobeth, DE, pay. On the West Coast, I understand they usually have an Alaskan hailing port.


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## chuck711 (Dec 25, 2002)

*Nuisance Taxes.*

All states are different. I pay $177 for a 1988 Cal 33 here in New Bern.
All states/cities have different ways of raising the money to run things.

With all the Northers moving here to retire. They don't mind the cost at all.

As a normal cruiser running up and down the eastern seaboard you'll
pay nothing until you stay somewhere for a good part of the year.

I remember being in Luperon for 3 weeks. Cost $89.
You stayed in New Bern for 5 months and it cost you $98.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Do the taxes help with the up keep of the marinas?


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

Not in New Bern. The marina is a private facility, not a public one. Even the easement is privately maintained.


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## NCC320 (Dec 23, 2008)

nezperce333 visits New Bern for some months, five I believe, stays at the marina, and when he is assessed personal property taxes, he gets angry and starts a personal campaign to "dis" New Bern. So, he thinks he should come, stay as long as he wants and free load off the local citizens? While the taxes may not directly pay to support the marina day to day, look a little deeper and you'll find that the local taxes do support some of the services that nez got or had access to. I'm sure that in 5 months, he went ashore and used the city streets to move about, and probably other facilities. If there had been a fire on his boat while in the marina, the city fire department would have responded. If nez had slipped and struck his head on the finger pier, the local rescue people would have responded, and taken him to the community hospital, also supported by local taxes. If someone had broken into his boat or there were disruptive inhabitants on a nearby boat, the local police would have responded. The nice waterfront developments, including the marinas, happened because local citizens paid years ago to redevelop the crumbling waterfront area, and to help develop the local historical development. 

I understand that if one comes and spends money with the local merchants, that visitor is helping pay for the services he uses, but there's more to it than just supporting a local business and paying sales taxes. But in his mind, it seems ok for him to stay for five months and have some non boat owning local citizens pay for him and other such freeloaders. If you come, and use the services, then pay your share. If nez have been there only a short while, he wouldn't have gotten that bill, I don't believe. New Bern is a nice place..if you haven't visited, come visit....and like every other place, it will cost something, but not too much. And if you don't want to pay the price, then don't come, but don't trash the place.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"Do the taxes help with the up keep of the marinas?"
Bear in mind that marinas sometimes catch fire, and when they do, a fire department paid for by taxes often responds. So...taxes support many things, including school systems that educate future dockworkers. (Or not.)
Can you drive up to the marina? Road paid for by taxes. Stuff like that.

Not all taxes go into lining corrupt pockets, some small piece of it trickles down to the rest of the world. Even marinas.


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## NCC320 (Dec 23, 2008)

nez... Also, on the recycling fee. In all that time you didn't drink any beer or soft drinks out of cans or bottles, or read any newspapers or magazines. And if you did, what did you do with these? Everywhere, cities are trying to recycle as much of the trash as possible, but generally, these operations are not completely selfsustaining, so typically there are recycling fees. Since you say that you didn't have (or elected not to use) the recycling bins, you shouldn't have to pay a recycling fee like the citizens of New Bern do. If you didn't recycle anything, it obviously went into the trash and wound up in the landfill, which is a major problem and the driver to recycle. Would you have felt better if they called it a landfill fee? Also, assuming you didn't flush overboard, each day you used the water, shower, and sewage facilities. Just where do does this go and how is it treated? And how is it paid for?

You lived on your boat for approximately 5 months or 150 days, so for your $134, your use taxes for all the services I mentioned and more comes to a little less than $1 per day..something to really ***** about. And you activiely try to hurt the local economy, which you found interesting enough in the past that you visited how many times...20 or so? Because of your posting, there will be some that will bypass New Bern, and it's too bad. It, like many other places along the waterways, is an interesting place. 

Now, as to using facilities, my boat (not at New Bern) stays at a marina and I am only aboard a few days each month...say 6 days a month maximum. So I pay property taxes on it just like you should have, but assuming the boat was the same value as yours, then over five months, it's used 30 days instead of your 150 days. So, as a local, I pay roughly 5 times more for the same services as you did...but that's fair isn't it?

Early on, you said that you paid property taxes in MD, but I have a boat registered in MD. MD gives favored treatment to boats and boats are not assessed an annual property tax.

Nez....I think you owe the people of New Bern, in particular, and the users of this forum an apology. But that will never happen will it?.....So where are you freeloading now?


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