# Repair of broken hull around keel stub



## mainer24 (Sep 16, 2012)

I've been reading this forum since I've been looking for a boat, then, after getting my 1st sailboat, a 1976 C&C24, and now, that repairs are needed much earlier that I'd like, I thought I would tap into this source of knowledge with questions.
When my skipper ran the boat into an underwater ledge, we didn't feel a shock or a stop, just heard a big noise, and the boat started taking water. Once pulled away from the ledge it sank in a minute :-( It's been salvaged a few days ago and I wonder if it can be fixed. The hull broke around the keel stub (1st picture, of the front of the keel) but the deck and mast and everything else is in such a good shape (plus, I ended up loving this boat so much...). Is there a way to restore the seaworthiness of the hull, so that it holds the weight of the keel, remains water tight and maintains the whole structure of the boat ?
More questions arose when I looked at the boat / (wreck...) on its stands. It looks like the keel had been fixed before, like if fiberglass had been added inside the hull (2d and 3d picture of the keel bolts compartment under the floor of the cabin) ; does this look to you like this boat ran aground before, that the hull was patched with fiber glass cloth and other stuff ?
And this brings me to the 1st question : is any repair possible now, of this broken hull, that would make the boat safe ?
Thank you for any input !


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## baboon (Aug 7, 2008)

Wow, this may get the repair thread of the year. The keel is not realy suported by the skin of the hull, but rather the grid build into the whole bottom of the boat. The fact that it failed is really an eye opener. My guess is to make it truly safe you will exceed the value of a 36 year old boat by a large margin. If you are commited to this boat get an experienced person on site to look at it. Any advice you get on the net, including mine, is not reliable enought to trust your safety.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

It looks like a writeoff to me. Unless that boat has enormous sentimental value, get another boat. An old C&C 24 is worth less than the materials needed to fix that damage, never mind any labour (of which there will be LOTS).

Strip it of all useful gear for resale and scrap it.

Sorry.


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## gus_452000 (Mar 11, 2012)

Sorry but that looks terminal to me, even with all the will in the world and free labour it would still cost more in materials to repair and make safe then buying another similar boat of younger years.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

From your pictures, and this perspective; yes, it looks like this was poorly patched before.

Can it be fixed? Yes - all it will cost is time and money. It will take lots of both.

I believe the stated message in the previous posts, is that you could buy another C&C 24, in better shape, for less than the costs involved in properly repairing this one.


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## rugosa (Aug 30, 2011)

Unless your insurance is covering the WHOLE cost, strip it, scrap it and find another boat. Spars, sails, winches, toe rails, hardware, rudder all have value if you are inclined to salvage them. The previous repair looks questionable, and you definitely hit hard Did your surveyor comment about the previous repair?


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

Agree with all, get rid of it. How much is your and your skipper's lives worth?

Paul T


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## WDS123 (Apr 2, 2011)

Scrap lead pays about $1 a lb these days


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

mainer24 said:


> When my skipper ran the boat into an underwater ledge, we didn't feel a shock or a stop, just heard a big noise, and the boat started taking water. Once pulled away from the ledge it sank in a minute :-( It's been salvaged a few days ago and I wonder if it can be fixed.!


Were you on the boat when it hit?
How fast were you going?
I'm surprised you didn't feel it more. What exactly did it feel like.

Would you mind sharing the salvage story?
I'm having a hard time visualizing it.

As far as what to do with the boat the process is pretty straight forward. Get someone over who is well respected and ask how much it is going to cost. During that discussion you will find out how many days it will take. If you plan on doing it yourself pick some whole number greater than one and multiply it by the professional number and you will have an idea.

The cost of Epoxy and fiberglass can add up even if you do the work yourself but usually it's days, tools, weather and dust control that makes this kind of job hard for first-timers.
But we don't know what your skills and background are but this is serious work.
Do you have insurance? If so they will pretty much control the ball.

I'm interested in more detail about the event.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

That not a "previous repair". that is a blatant cover up job. The seller and the surveyor should be prosecuted.


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## mainer24 (Sep 16, 2012)

Thank you all for your advice ! what looks clear now is that spending the winter fixing it is not an option anymore. I haven't worked with epoxy/fiber glass before and I underestimate probably how messy that can be (was just reading that fg dust is toxic, prob for the same reasons asbestos is). Security is also important as I usually take friends, friend's relatives etc on board and I would feel terrible if anything happened because of a bad boat (even worse if I had "fixed" it). I've learned my lesson : it can look very good from the outside but be dangerous nevertheless. I realize too that age matters (for these boats at least) ; the next one won't be older than me ! Thank you for the idea of stripping it, too. I had thought of the sails and sheets but would have forgotten the winches, blocks, pulleys,... and other metal parts. The boat hasn't been surveyed by the insurance yet ; I guess they will "total" it, which is why I was wondering if buying it back was worth it.
As for the details of the accident, that's how it happened : the wind had died on us so we were motoring back to the harbor (4 hp, 2-stroke motor, we were probably running at 15 mph max). I left the tiler to my skipper and went on the bow to fold the jib. He didn't pay attention to a red buoy that we should have kept on our starboard side and took a "shortcut" in front of it. We heard a big "boom" but were not shaken at all : where I was standing, I did not fall overboard. The boat ended up stuck on the ledge and the waves were rocking it pretty badly ; we were afraid that the wave would fill the cockpit but instead, water started coming in from the keel bolts compartment. Long story short, the USCG could get to us after the tide went back up and when they towed the boat of the ledge it sank. For the salvage story, we had a diver finding the wreck, first on its depth finder, then by actually diving (40 feet deep, boat was lying on its side) and rigging the boat, for the barge that came next to lift it up and bring it back to shore. I am borrowing a picture from the diver to answer the questions about the salvage... 
Thank you again for your wise comments !


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

15 MPH with a 4HP Outboard? - I'd believe 5 knots (about 6 MPH) but that's it.

Try to save the motor!!


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## baboon (Aug 7, 2008)

You are one lucky sailor. These sites are full of stories of people who have close calls, yours is a more compelling situation by far. 

As to salvage, Unless you plan to build your new boat, The value of all the parts taken off the boat may be limited. You have to look at the cost to buy it back from the insurance verses what you can get selling the stuff on Craig's list and to a scrap metal dealer. You also have to dispose of the whole waterlogged hull and deck. It is semi toxic non recyclable plastic waste, in my environemtaly conscious area the cost to to get rid of it would be high. You also have to figure in the storage costs and your time. I am not saying I know it is not worth it, but I would research it first. In the end it may be best to let you insurgence company deal with the wreck.


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## rugosa (Aug 30, 2011)

baboon said:


> You are one lucky sailor. These sites are full of stories of people who have close calls, yours is a more compelling situation by far.
> 
> As to salvage, Unless you plan to build your new boat, The value of all the parts taken off the boat may be limited. You have to look at the cost to buy it back from the insurance verses what you can get selling the stuff on Craig's list and to a scrap metal dealer. You also have to dispose of the whole waterlogged hull and deck. It is semi toxic non recyclable plastic waste, in my environemtaly conscious area the cost to to get rid of it would be high. You also have to figure in the storage costs and your time. I am not saying I know it is not worth it, but I would research it first. In the end it may be best to let you insurgence company deal with the wreck.


Good point. I had forgotten about disposal dilema.


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## GaryHLucas (Mar 24, 2008)

This will be an interesting story to follow. They scrapped out the boat that sunk in my slip while my boat was on the hard a few weeks ago. One day with a Sawzall and a demolition blade and it fit into a rolloff garbage container. The keel was cast iron, they got like $300 for it.

As bad as it looks, one of the amazing things about fiberglass is how it can be repaired. I just got done doing my keel trunk on my Etap. I also did a similar repair on a 1976 Hunter 27. Was it worth it? SHOOT ME if I even think about doing it again!

Gary H. Lucas


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

mainer24 said:


> As for the details of the accident, that's how it happened : The boat ended up stuck on the ledge and the waves were rocking it pretty badly
> Thank you again for your wise comments !


Thanks for the story and we all feel you pain.
Good luck with your next boat. Don't give up.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

You have already decided against repair but just in case you are tempted their is another issue.
After repair it will have a salvage title and getting insurance again for you or anyone else may not be possible.


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## mainer24 (Sep 16, 2012)

I did save the motor and brought it immediately to a pro - had been told that if it was washed in fresh water and winterized immediately there was a chance to save it even after a week in sea water. Good point about the impossibility to insure a fixed-at-home boat (so many things i wouldn't have thought about ; thanks !) ; and how we'll dispose of the wreck is still a mystery to me ; around here environment is a big thing. Just disposing of the mix of gasoline/sea water recovered from the boat is difficult... I can't imagine hundred of pounds of fiberglass, lead, all this coated with toxic bottom paint !


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

mainer24 said:


> ... I've learned my lesson : it can look very good from the outside but be dangerous nevertheless. I realize too that age matters (for these boats at least)...


I am curious - what did the age of the boat have to do with this mishap?

Are you better off driving a new boat up on the rocks?


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## mainer24 (Sep 16, 2012)

jameswilson29 said:


> I am curious - what did the age of the boat have to do with this mishap?
> 
> Are you better off driving a new boat up on the rocks?


Thank you for bringing some humor in. What I meant is that, I guess, the older the boat (on these small budget sail boats), the higher the probability of hidden cracks, weird repairs, etc... that makes them less resilient in case something bad happens ? It's just my guess and from what I've seen when looking around for a boat. And these boats don't come with a "carfax" about their history...


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

I am surprised the marine surveyor did not discover the evidence of the prior shoddy repair before you bought the boat. I suspect the prior impact itself would have left telltale signs of damage in the bilge, keel, bulkheads or elsewhere near the point of impact.

Scientific studies (conducted by the U.S. Navy, among others) have demonstrated that fiberglass loses very little strength as it ages, a bit more if repeatedly flexed. A boat your age should be no less resilient than a newer boat. C&Cs of that era are generally considered to be well-built boats.

Weird repairs and structural damage should be revealed by the marine survey, or, even before that, by your own close inspection prior to signing the contract.


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## jgeissinger (Feb 25, 2002)

With all this talk about whether it is or is not repairable, and who is or is not responsible, and who should or should not be sued, you haven't mentioned what exactly your insurance carrier has said. My suggestion, like others, would be to take any reasonable offer and chalk it up to experience.


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## flyingjib (Mar 5, 2012)

Not defending the badly made repair but it does looks like a mast step repair job to me. I just had to do mine a month ago. C&C mast step on some hulls were made out of thin sheets of plywood sitting in the bilge water.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

One other thing I am confused about. You refer to the helmsman as the skipper. Does whoever is steering the boat assume command of the vessel?

As far as I am concerned, I remain the captain of the vessel whether I am on the bow or behind the wheel. As such, I am ultimately responsible for all that happens while underway.

In your scenario, since your friend was the skipper, why isn't he responsible for all the damage?


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## rugosa (Aug 30, 2011)

flyingjib said:


> Not defending the badly made repair but it does looks like a mast step repair job to me. I just had to do mine a month ago. C&C mast step on some hulls were made out of thin sheets of plywood sitting in the bilge water.


That model was deck stepped I believe.


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## flyingjib (Mar 5, 2012)

rugosa said:


> That model was deck stepped I believe.


Yup. You're absolutely correct...


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

I would strongly urge you to reconsider taking any money from the insurance company, or even notifying them of the accident. You may find that once they pay off, they shortly there after drop your policy. You will then have a VERY tough time finding a new insurer.

I had a customer of mine have this happen to him. They paid him to fix the keel then promptly dropped his policy come renewal time. It took him a very long time to find a new policy, which is not as good, and it now costs him about 4X what he was paying for his first policy. It is one thing in a "no fault" claim, eg: someone hit you at the dock, mooring etc, lightning, unpredicted storm, etc. but when you hit a ledge they tend to not like to insure those types of "risks"...

Chalk this up to "new boatitus" and find a new one but without the insurance company... Something to consider. 

Granite ledges in Maine don't move, but you'd not be the first to have tried...


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## mainer24 (Sep 16, 2012)

The insurance carrier hasn't seen the boat yet ; they said on the phone they probably will "total" it but want to see it nevertheless - I'll know by monday. The difficulty of finding another insurance after that is one of my concerns indeed. 
Agreed about granite ledges - at least, from now on, I will have more empathy for people who "try to move them" 
Thank you all for your very valuable imputs and advice !


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## sailortrash (Sep 1, 2012)

I agree you should go after the surveyor and previous owner. Get your money back and have them pay for the disposal.


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## dongreerps (May 14, 2007)

Seen on a Tee Shirt:

I'd rather be in a boat with a drink on the rocks than in the drink with a boat of the rocks


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## jgeissinger (Feb 25, 2002)

*Re: Repair of broken hull around keel stub/ Insurance claim*

If the insurance company totals the boat and pays you for it, they then own the boat. Of course they will cancel the policy! Insurance companies do not have lists of people who have had claims, that they share with other insurance companies in order to prevent them from buying future insurance. That simply doesn't happen.

If you bought a used boat from a private party it is (in most states) "as is". If you had a survey it was for your own information and was as detailed as you asked for and paid for. You are not going to get any damages from anybody. You bought insurance for a reason, use it.


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## rbrake (Sep 28, 2009)

Great article. I'd highly recommend the small random orbital buffer made by Shurehold. It's variable speed and relatively small for inside cockpits etc. Sheepskin pads for compounds, and foam pads for applications like Finessit II. Rubbing compounds work best at very low speeds and enough pressure to keep the pad from spinning. Always use a different pad as you work up the scale and mark them inside with a sharpie. You don't want rubbing compound contaminating a later buff or polish.


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## ahab211 (Jan 6, 2008)

I also have a C&C and have the front keel bolt pushed off center, probably from acprevious underwater collision. I've tightened the bolts and Bondoed a slight C&C smile Seam crack.i've bumped bottom a few times and my yard owner hit the wall and dragged it on the pavement several yards! These lead keels are very tough! From your pics the hull took a hell of a lick and had previous damage to boot. I'm not ready to give up on mine but your damage is too costly to repair! Having paid $2200 for my 1983 boat minus the motor, I would grab the insurance money and go shopping for another! I hear the water slapping on my hull on a heel and I imagine the keel coming loose. Would you feel safe even after repairs, I wouldn't. I couldn't imagine your insurance company not writing that damage off! Good luck!


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