# Hinterhoeller Niagara 30



## shapka (Nov 12, 2008)

Going to look at a 1969 Niagara 30. It is supposed to be the big brother to the Shark. 
Anyone have any info? Seller says that it has solid decks and hull. True?
Won't be able to sail it first, and it needs some minor rudder repairs, but it is very cheap and it sounds like it could be usable in very short order.
Not really what I want long term, but thinking it might be a fun toy to use for now.
Thanks in advance.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

They were made by the man who designed and built the Shark - George Hinterhoeller.



> some minor rudder repairs,


 this would worry me.

The boats themselves are well-respected and I find it difficult to believe that one in fair to good condition would be available cheaply. They are fairly desirable craft so if someone is letting one go for next to nothing - that is probably its worth... guaranteed it is going to cost money to refurbish, so think long and hard about whether you want to be pouring lots of money into a very needy 30 footer or if you want to buy something smaller and newer and spend more time sailing.

Hinterhoeller Yachts Ltd. Yacht Builder


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## shapka (Nov 12, 2008)

*Rudder Repairs*

Apparently, the PO put two anodes on the aluminum rudder, and there is (not clear on this yet) a hole or just some corrosion that has been previously faired by the CO. This repair has come off, and he said it lasted 10 years (the repair).
Rudder is out of the boat.
Original rigging. Bunch of sails I have not seen supposedly "good condition", some dry rot inside.
Needs paint apparently, but is on the beach. Thinking of picking it up with my brothers and father, putting in some work to paint the hull quickly, and then sail and repair, sail and repair.
But I won't see it until Saturday.
I am cool with epoxy work, but not sure how to assess the condition of a very old hull and deck.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

> Apparently, the PO put two anodes on the aluminum rudder, and there is (not clear on this yet) a hole or just some corrosion that has been previously faired by the CO. This repair has come off, and he said it lasted 10 years (the repair).


Aluminum rudder...Buying aluminum to remake/replace this will run about $400.00. Then there's labour. Let's figure a minimum of $750.00

Rudder is out of the boat.



> Original rigging.


 Guranteed pooched by now - 40 years old. Figure a minimum of $2,000.00 to buy the absolutely necessary pieces.


> Bunch of sails I have not seen supposedly "good condition",


In good condition they could last another 15 years. If you need to replace them figure a minimum of $5,000.00 for a main and a genoa.


> some dry rot inside.


 If this is in the main bulkhead you are looking at about 3 to 4 thousand to fix it yourself - materials will not be that expensive but taking the boat out of the water, removing hardware, bracing the hull, painting, and launching again costs money. Probably about 6 to 7 if it's a yard bill.


> Needs paint apparently, but is on the beach.


 WHat do you mean on the beach ??? Lying on the beach ??? At this point they should be paying you to take it away.


> Thinking of picking it up with my brothers and father, putting in some work to paint the hull quickly,


 It will not be quick. You are talking about a refit that will cost many thousands of dollars and take months - that's just to get it to the point where it is safe to sail.


> and then sail and repair, sail and repair.


that is what we all do, and that is when we have started with boats in good shape 


> But I won't see it until Saturday. I am cool with epoxy work, but not sure how to assess the condition of a very old hull and deck.


Cough up the money for a surveyor if you are not able to find a knowledgeable local. I bet you will be surprised to find out how much it can cost to get a boat back into decent shape.

Far, far better off to buy something that has a rudder, no rot, and rigging that is not 40 years old.

Good Luck !


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## shapka (Nov 12, 2008)

So, using your numbers, if the total was 7K (I am assuming that the sails and bulkhead would be ok, would that be an outrageous price for this boat?
When I say on the beach, I mean in a marina's repair space.
I think you are right on the survey, but a survey would be more than the boat's purchase price. I will look for a knowlegable local.


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## shapka (Nov 12, 2008)

oh, yeah, since I own a crane, I did not include launching costs, other than the initial launch from where it is now.


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## patrickrea (Aug 20, 2007)

The survey should cost from $350 to $500 max. If the boat is going to cost less than that, RUN AWAY!!!

But seriously, old rigging may not be to bad if you are going to daysail for a year IF it isn't too far gone. Same for sails. You can always buy new used sails.

You own a crane? If you also own a space that you can keep her over the winter for repair, then you are miles ahead in terms of cash outlay. Does your crane have access to water deep enough to launch or haul? The marinas won't let your crane onto their property.


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## shapka (Nov 12, 2008)

Actually, my crane has been in and out of a few marinas for random customers.
Usually, people don't mind staying on my good side, and I imagine that finding a place to launch the boat will not be a problem.
I have a place to store the boat in winter, but I do not have a trailer to transport it, and would not be investing in one. Perhaps they are rentable.
Thanks for the survey heads up: I thought they were four times as expensive.
At the moment, I am wondering why the owner has it in the repair portion of the marina ($25 per day) and not long term storage. The bulkhead issue worries me: perhaps he started some repairs, then paced it in due to some discovery.
He wants 3K for the boat with a 91 9.9 outboard that apparently runs well.
I think I will make the drive and take a look at the very least.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I'd recommend you read the *Boat Inspection Trip Tips* thread I started, as it will help you determine whether this boat even worth going forward on.


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## Northeaster (Jan 13, 2007)

Make sure about the hull and decks, solid or cored (and not wet). I may be wrong, but I thought I had heard stories about a Niagara 31, about the same age with wet decks. May not be accurate, but if decks (or hull) were cored, and more than a little wet, I would walk away quickly. Fixing a couple of soft spots would be bad enough. Redecking the entire boat would be unwise. Better to find a baot in good, well maintained shape to begin with.

Pay now or pay later. Do a search for the thread " your rebuild costs"


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## shapka (Nov 12, 2008)

i was under the impression that solid glass was not damaged by water intrusion. no?


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## Northeaster (Jan 13, 2007)

I am saying to make sure that it is solid glass! As I have heard of a similar boat, with soft / wet decks. Perhaps some years were solid and some were cored??? Again, this may not be accurate, but it would, at least, amke me check the decks carefully (make sure they are solid) and have it surveyed before buying it!


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## patrickrea (Aug 20, 2007)

As long as you have a stand for the boat, having a float trailer come pick it up is not a big deal.
Just another thought, a 9.9 Merc on the back of a Niagara 30 is kind of like putting my Hyundai Accent motor into an RV. Yes it will work, but it wont be any fun. You should be able to depend on your motor actually stopping you when approaching a dock, a mooring or a shoal. You are talking about a 4000 pound boat.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

> So, using your numbers, if the total was 7K (I am assuming that the sails and bulkhead would be ok, would that be an outrageous price for this boat?


No but the thing you need to remember is that there are inumerable other things you'll need. Let's say you can fix the problems mentioned.

Now you want to take the boat to a yacht club or a marina so that you can use it. To get in - you need insurance. To get insurance you need a survey. The surveyor is going to look at your boat and tell you that you need basic electrics - figure $500.00 for a battery and some lights.

Then you'll need working bilge pumps - manual and electric. $200.00. Seacocks/thruhulls in good condition - no charge. If not - another $500.00 or so. Lifejackets/flares/VHF/horn/fire extinguisher/flashlight - $750.00 Anchor and rode - $250.00.

So now that you've invested that money getting your boat up to snuff - you can buy the insurance - figure $250.00 to $400.00.

NOW they'll let you in to the marina: between 3 and 4 thousand a year for a 30 footer (in this area). Or perhaps you'd like to join a club - Membership and initiation/debentures/whatever they call it will set you back a minimum of $5,000.00 in the first year and can easily be far more than that.

So the boat that sounded so great for 3K has now cost you 20K - and it still needs a whole bunch of stuff. Things that don't seem important right now - like a working toilet - become quite a priority when you are actually on the boat.

The boat you are considering is not a "3 thousand dollar sailboat". It is a financial responsibility. If you are willing to assume that responsibility and go into it with the idea that you're embarking on an investment process that's going to take 50 or 60 thousand of your after tax dollars, well, this is a worthy design yes.

If you want something inexpensive to get out on the water in - wrap your head around a 15 thousand dollar outlay and buy a 27 foot boat in good condition.

Good Luck !


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## shapka (Nov 12, 2008)

Yeah, considering that I have been shopping for a 35+ foot cruising boat for 2.5 years, yeah, I am ready for the financial responsibility.


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## Gary M (May 9, 2006)

There is no such boat as a Niagara 30, the seller is misleading you. If it was built in 1969 then it is a 30 footer that was built by Hinterheoller but was called Redwing 30. George built a lot of solid boats at that time, the HR25, the shark and a centre board 31 footer and this fixed keel 30 footer. 

The boat in question does have a solid hull and deck and they are pretty rugged but getting very old. Most systems, the rig sails etc are likely very tired. What you see is likely what you get. 
The Niagara 31 that was built starting about 1978 was a very nice boat that was balsa cored and like all cored boats may have some issues depending on how it was looked after.

Gary


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

> There is no such boat as a Niagara 30,


You might want to check out this link:

NIAGARA 30 Sailboat details (specs. English) on sailboatdata.com

It's a different boat from the Redwing which you can see at this website:

C&C Yachts - C&C Photo Album & Resource Center


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

> Yeah, considering that I have been shopping for a 35+ foot cruising boat for 2.5 years, yeah, I am ready for the financial responsibility.


So what is it about this particular boat that has altered your goal ? I personally think they are great boats and would love to see one preserved but it's a smaller boat and not so much of a cruiser.


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## Gary M (May 9, 2006)

Sailorman looks like you are correct, I was not aware of that boat, there must not have been many of them made and they do look like a shark. Interesting boat, would like to sail on one.

Gary


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## shapka (Nov 12, 2008)

just wanted to get on something this summer. prices up here (BC) have not really moved yet, but sales have fallen off a cliff. this boat looked like a cheap opportunity to get on the water this summer, other than windsurfing. just looked at the boat very briefly: looks like it has been repaired on the side of the hull. big different coloured spot. also, looking down the hull, there are flat spots, bumps, weird looking imperfections that may be normal, but kind of look like trouble to me. 
the keel/hull joint is visible and I highly doubt it is water tight. 
boat was on stands, owner not around, so i didn't get on board, but it looked much rougher than in the photos.
probalbly going to walk away, but that said, it is a cool looking boat. you can see how if restored it would be a real looker, and i would think that it is quite fast.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

> prices up here (BC) have not really moved yet, but sales have fallen off a cliff.


The effects of the current recession are only starting to be felt by the average Canadian. I believe that now is not a great time to buy (in Canada). If you can wait another nine to twelve months the prices should be experiencing a real correction.

That said - the price of well-maintained boats doesn't ever drop much. Once in a while you'll run into someone who's in financial trouble and needs to bail, but if the boat has been taken care of there are usually three or four peple in line for it.

If I were you - I'd try putting nontices up in clubs and marinas in your area indicating that you're in the market and outlining what you're looking for. Let people phone you - they will be the most motivated vendors.

Good Luck !


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

> Sailorman looks like you are correct, I was not aware of that boat, there must not have been many of them made and they do look like a shark. Interesting boat, would like to sail on one.


They are pretty rare - I had not heard of them until I saw one at a club a couple of years ago.


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