# My Project Boat



## AllThumbs

I bought a project boat. A 1973 DS 20. My plan is to fix her up and sail her for a couple years at least. I have a million questions, so rather than start a million threads, I am starting just this one. I plan on ask questions pertaining to the project here, and documenting the project here with plenty of photographs etc.

We will see how it goes. There may be times when little progress is made due to time/weather constraints, and other times where there is a flurry of activities.

I am hoping this thread serves as some motivation to others considering a project boat, and also as log/scrap book of the project.

I have posted this pic in the "buying a boat" area, but here she is again on the day we met. I have since towed her the 120 miles home. More specific pictures related to questions soon.

I paid $750.00 for her, so keep that in mind when you see the project unfold. 

Eric


----------



## AllThumbs

I should add that this project will be completed on a budget as much as possible. Hardware store products will be used when ever possible, but "marine store" parts when warrented.

Eric


----------



## sailingdog

Be careful about using "hardware" store parts on a boat, since many are not suitable for a marine environment and can pose a serious danger if used in one. If you're on freshwater, you're in less danger using hardware store parts, but not completely clear of it IMHO.


----------



## TSOJOURNER

I don't see a keel. Centerboard?

Oh and GOOD LUCK!


----------



## AllThumbs

Yeah, there is a slotted stub keel and swinging centerboard.

SD, When I refer to hardware store, I mean cosmetic parts (paint, varnish, windows). Structural glass and epoxy, standing rigging, halyards, etc will be marine.

I will be sailing freshwater. For now a small inland lake, future possibly great lakes (ontario, erie).

Eric


----------



## sailingdog

good enough.... just was checking...


----------



## JohnRPollard

Hey, congrats on the new boat! She looks like an ideal vessel for your plans and budget.

Enjoy the project, and here's hoping you're out sailing soon enough!

Keep us posted.


----------



## bubb2

I , 2sd the, Keep us posted.


----------



## Perithead

Cool thumbs, looks pretty good to me.

What all is there that needs doing? Anything major? 

From the picture the paint and all looks pretty good. D

Did it come with a motor?


----------



## Leither

Congratulations on your new purchase - looking forward to seeing the project progress.

I empathise with your need to keep to a budget. I am in the same position and offer the following advice based on my own experience.

Keep trawling the Internet. I have saved a lot of money by finding special offers or reduced price items and now have a list of suppliers on my Favorites that I use from time to time. 

Don't forget Ebay. There is a wealth of marine stuff out there and some of it to be got for a real bargain. You just have to de discriminating and go for well-known brand names if possible.

There are reputable suppliers of used items out there, too. You wouldn't want to buy crucial performance items this way, but other bits and pieces may be fine.

If you have local suppliers, check them out first. They may be able to do a good deal. We have a supplier in Annapolis who often comes up trumps in this respect.

Finally, keep your eyes open for unexpected sources. Our local WalMart has an aisle of assorted (and I do mean assorted!) marine items (dock lines, fenders, electrical parts etc) at very reasonable prices.

Good luck and keep asking them questions!!


----------



## AllThumbs

The paint looks ok in the picture, not as good in real life. Here is the stuff I plan on doing and the order:

Remove all deck hardware, windows
Prep and paint hull and deck
Reinstall/replace deck hardware/windows as needed
New companion entrance door
New companion entrance combing

And in no particular order:
all new running rigging
some standing rigging
needs a (used) outboard motor
repair or replace mainsail cover
replace tiller arm
Re-tab some plywood bulkheads inside (bilge area)
The bowrail is missing


----------



## Perithead

That sounds pretty good. Thats pretty much the same thing I am going through right now with my project boat. 

How is your keel? Does it need refinishing? 
Thats just one of the things I have to do that isnt on your list. But if it doesnt need it then good for you!

Looks like you may have it planned pretty well, dont get discouraged.


----------



## tschmidty

Looks like a nice little boat. I am working on a 16 footer that was much rougher than what you got.


----------



## AllThumbs

No idea about the keel. Won't know until I splash her in the spring.

Eric


----------



## AllThumbs

Ok, first task is to fix some holes in the transom. All above the water line. The PO had a BBQ mount braket here. There are similar holes where a OB motor was mounted . The transom is about 1.5" thick ply core fibreglass. The plan is to countersink these holes on both sides of the transom with a countersink bit and fill the holes from both sides with Bondo (autobody filler). The countersink will help keep the filler in place. Then sand smooth.


----------



## AllThumbs

These windows (dead lights?) will be removed. 

Option 1 is to clean the frames, repaint them black, then clean or replace the lexan. Reinstall with SS screws and sealer.

Option 2 is to just replace with smoked lexan mounted externally with ss screws and no frames.

I will see how the frames look once removed.

Eric


----------



## AllThumbs

Here is the companion way opening. The PO removed the combing and put on this decent looking and handy 2 part doorway. The trouble is the gap between them keeps no rainwater out. My plan is to install some combing and make a new slide out one peice companion way door.


----------



## Bonadventure

Nice looking project boat. Looks like you got a great deal. I live in Tennessee and dream of one day sailing my 1972 O'Day 23' pop top sailboat on Lake Huron. I have some property about 12 miles from Lake Huron in Presque Isle Michigan. Bonadventure


----------



## sailingdog

use thickened epoxy instead. bondo won't create a decent water-proof seal with the plywood and it will get wet and then delaminate.


AllThumbs said:


> Ok, first task is to fix some holes in the transom. All above the water line. The PO had a BBQ mount braket here. There are similar holes where a OB motor was mounted . The transom is about 1.5" thick ply core fibreglass. The plan is to countersink these holes on both sides of the transom with a countersink bit and fill the holes from both sides with Bondo (autobody filler). The countersink will help keep the filler in place. Then sand smooth.


----------



## sailingdog

go with option 2


AllThumbs said:


> These windows (dead lights?) will be removed.
> 
> Option 1 is to clean the frames, repaint them black, then clean or replace the lexan. Reinstall with SS screws and sealer.
> 
> Option 2 is to just replace with smoked lexan mounted externally with ss screws and no frames.
> 
> I will see how the frames look once removed.
> 
> Eric


----------



## AllThumbs

sailingdog said:


> use thickened epoxy instead. bondo won't create a decent water-proof seal with the plywood and it will get wet and then delaminate.


Hmm, I was wrong about the transom. It's only thick in the location of the OB mount. It's 1/4" thick fibreglass where the BBQ bracket was mounted. I will epoxy a layer of glass cloth on the inside, and fill the hole on the outside with epoxy as SD suggests.

Eric.


----------



## AllThumbs

sailingdog said:


> go with option 2


I have 1/4" clear lexan on hand. I will have to buy smoked lexan. If the frames are toast, I will buy some smoked lexan, but if I can reuse the frames, I would like to used the clear lexan I have. Are you concerned about painting the aluminum frames? should I leave them natural if they can be reused?

Eric


----------



## sailingdog

I find the frames make the boat look really dated unless they're in immaculate shape. Many newer boats are going with the bolted on deadlights and no frames. If you decide to go the through-bolted deadlight route... a few suggestions.

1) Drill the fastener holes a bit oversized and —this will allow for the expansion of the glazing material

2) Chamfer/countersink both sides of each fastener hole slightly—this will help prevent stress cracks from occuring at the holes

3) Paint the inner side's outer most 1" with black paint—this will hide the mess created by the bedding compound and make the installation look a lot neater

4) Heavier is better—don't skimp on the thickness of the glazing material. In a storm—it may be the only thing keeping the breaking waves from getting in.


----------



## mazzy

AllThumbs said:


> I will epoxy a layer of glass cloth on the inside, and fill the hole on the outside with epoxy as SD suggests.
> 
> Eric.


Eric,
no need for the cloth on the inside. Put a nice square of masking tape over the inside of the hole, and fill from the other side with the thickened epoxy. When it sets, remove the tape.

If you haven't put them in your Favorites, go to the West System epoxy website. Loads of great info there.

Mike


----------



## AllThumbs

Thanks for the link.

Ok, I have been shopping (at the hardware store) for paint. Not much selection for oil based paints these days. Here is what I have found:

1) 2 part epoxy garage floor paint. Only two choices for colours (grey, tan), and I am not sure it's compatible with existing paint, so this is out.
2) 1 part "epoxy" garage floor paint. Tintable so colour choice is there but this seems to be a latex paint since cleanup is water. I think they are using the word "epoxy" as a marketing ploy. I don't trust this one.
3) Regular high quality oil based exterior "rust" paint. (Lot's of colour choice here. Available in both satin and high gloss.
4) I have been looking for "polyurathane" paint but have only seen it in clear coat at the hardware store. No coloured polyurathane to be found.

So, I am leaning towards high quality, high gloss exterior oil based paint. Fire engine red for the hull, off white for the deck and cockpit.

I want to get it painted soon before it's too cold. Also, I need it painted before the windows and companion hatch combing can be done.

Eric


----------



## bubb2

AllThumbs said:


> I have 1/4" clear lexan on hand. I will have to buy smoked lexan. If the frames are toast, I will buy some smoked lexan, but if I can reuse the frames, I would like to used the clear lexan I have. Are you concerned about painting the aluminum frames? should I leave them natural if they can be reused?
> 
> Eric


You would be surprised what a cotton wheel and a good polishing compound can do with those aluminum frames.


----------



## tschmidty

*Ace*

Ace hardware has a tintable 1 part oil pased polyurethane Floor and Porch paint which seems to be just the ticket frankly. Unless I hear otherwise, that is most likely what I will be using. They don't seem to link to it on their site. They have a Tile Red standard color but I don't know what it looks like really. They also sell quarts which would be nice if you only need a bit but of course a gallon is less than twice what a quart is (13 vs 22 or so).

And yeah, I don't see how an "eopxy" paint can be water based either, although some of the latex based paints are actually very good these days.

That's actually close to the scheme I was going to use although I wanted more of a brick red on the bottom.


----------



## sailingdog

Just don't paint below the waterline or in the bilge. Paint doesn't stick well in areas that are generally wet.  

Not a big fan of oil-based paints on a boat. IMHO you'd be much better off getting a proper marine paint, and it would end up costing a lot less in the long run. If you think about the fact that 95% of work in a good paint job is prep, and a cheaper non-marine paint will come off in less time than a decent marine two-part LPU paint, like AwlCraft 2000, AwlGrip or Imron, you will end up spending more on the cheap paint in the long run.

Another good place to get paint to use on the topsides of a boat is an automotive paint supply house. Many of their paints are formulated to stick very well to fiberglass (corvettes for example) and are very weather resistant and fairly durable.


----------



## AllThumbs

Well, I went to a paint store and they did have the polyurethane paint so I picked up two gallons. One red, one off white. I'll see how it works out and report.

A question about the deck. I am planning to remove the hardware, paint, and replace hardware. Is this wise or should I mask the hardware and paint around it? There are a few items rivited on so I may leave these, and remove what I can.

Eric


----------



## SailingFlorida

I reinstalled my port lights with Lex purchased from Home Depot. The frames I had where in the same shape as yours, also redoing my boat on the cheap I carefully used grinder and sander to get the old oxidation off of the frames to bare metal. Believe it or not I used rustolium black gloss paint in 2 coats, hasn't chipped and they look good! I will post a picture for you if you like. One thing with using the old frames is if you can get the correct spline and sponge for them. Tanzers have a great following and I was able to find the parts i need in Canada. BE CAREFUL TAKING THEM OUT! I got pissed at a few and they bent slightly. We get alot of rain and they haven't leaked but was a PITA getting them back in. Also couldn't tell if you only had one window on ea side? Mark them so that your holes line up, same with inside frames if app.


----------



## sailingdog

Mazzy-

Believe the need for adding the cloth was to make the transom area the BBQ was mounted stronger, to better support the BBQ.



mazzy said:


> Eric,
> no need for the cloth on the inside. Put a nice square of masking tape over the inside of the hole, and fill from the other side with the thickened epoxy. When it sets, remove the tape.
> 
> If you haven't put them in your Favorites, go to the West System epoxy website. Loads of great info there.
> 
> Mike


AllTHumbs-

Remove the hardware, it will give you a better paint job.


----------



## AllThumbs

Will do. I wish it would warm up. Too cold right now.


----------



## AllThumbs

Hard to tell but this is a pic with the topsides preped for paint. Will paint it tomorrow if the weather cooperates.


----------



## AllThumbs

Rigging question.

The rigging on this boat is all 1/8" SS wire. I am wondering if I should replace it. The wire looks great with no meathooks anywhere, so I feel good about that. I am wondering about the crimps tho, as this is the most likely failure mode for standing rigging (I have heard). Have a look at the crimp in the photo. All the crimps are the same. Not sure if this is original or not (probably). The boat is 1973. Is this typical for the type of crimps used in ealy 70's? Is this a reliable crimping method? Top and bottom crimps are identical. If I am to replace the rigging, I would go with new SS wire and Stay-Lok fork type fittings. Also If I do have to replace the rigging, can I replace some standing rigging or does the whole boat need to be done at once? I was thinking maybe replace two (of 4) shrouds and backstay this year and other two shrouds and forstay next.


----------



## sailingdog

If you're worried enough to replace the rigging...replace all of it. 1/8" rigging isn't going to be very expensive to replace... I would recommend going with rotary swages at the mast end and use the more expensive mechanical fittings for the lower ends. The lower ends need the mechanical fittings more than the top end, since the top end stays relatively dry—being at the top of the mast. 

As for the fittings, I would go with Hayn HiMod instead of StaLoks, as I believe they're easier to use. Also, make sure you have toggles at the top and bottom of each shroud or stay.


----------



## bubb2




----------



## sailingdog

Bubb-

Only 19... you must be slacking...


----------



## AllThumbs

Thanks for the recommendation. I estimate around $500 to replace all the wire and mechanical forks for this boat.

The turnbuckles on the bottom incorporate toggles. To replace the rigging would just mean fork type fittings top and bottom, then reuse existing turnbuckles with their toggles.

Back to the original question: Is this type of swage 

A)typical for a early 70's boat (in other words, is this some home made replacement rigging?)
B)if not home made, has this system proved reliable, or do they suffer from the same corrosion type failures as the newer swages that are rolled?


----------



## sailingdog

Yes, that type of fitting is pretty common from that era. IIRC, it isn't technically a swage...but I don't remember what that type of fitting was called. They're fairly reliable... but considering the rigging is probably 35 years old... probably a good idea to replace it.


----------



## AllThumbs

Since I am likely going to replace the deadlights in this boat with new smoked lexan (without the frames as SD suggested - I have since removed the windows and am not convinced I want to try to clean them up and paint them), I have the chance now to install windows of a new shape. I have photoshopped the original window shape and another pic with the new shape. The new shape (second pic) has a little more modern look but maybe it doesn't fit this boat. What are your thoughts?


----------



## artbyjody

If you are looking for a sleeker look - extend the forward part of the lexan to where the cabin top section meets the foredeck - but keep it angled (finer triangle at the forward and larger at the aft). It'll give the illusion of windows and the triangular shape will lend it "stretching the length"...See my avatar photo for what I am talking about...

The box just makes it well look boxy  IMHO


----------



## AllThumbs

Like this?


----------



## artbyjody

Yep. Like that


----------



## AllThumbs

here are all 3. I think I like 3 the best. Any other opinions?


----------



## sailingdog

That should work pretty well.. don't forget to paint the interior side where the sealant will be to hide the sealant from view and give you a nice clean looking edge to the ports.


----------



## Classic30

AllThumbs, here's a pic of our boat if that helps:









Contrary to what SD says, if you use a dark-coloured (ie. black) sealant, you don't have to paint anything - the tinted lexan is dark enough that you can't see into it without light behind.

Our windows are around 1/2" smoked lexan covering three cut-outs behind. It's very easy to do - and you can make a companionway storm-board and even sliding hatch from the same stuff.


----------



## AllThumbs

Hartley,

Nice boat. Thanks. Oh and I only pay attention to SD about half the time so no worries...


----------



## sailingdog

1/2" lexan ports on an 18' boat... damn..that's a bit overkill.


----------



## AllThumbs

yeah, I priced the 1/4" stuff last night. Ouch.


----------



## AllThumbs

I am being told by a glass place that lexan only comes in clear and that the smoked stuff in sheets is always plexiglass....Is this true?


----------



## sailingdog

*BULLPUCKEY-they're LYING...*  Call up a local sign supply company.... I use Hart Supply, in Hingham, MA, for mine...they'll have Makrolon (a brand name of Bayer polycarbonate) in various thicknesses and colors. It is usually available in brown or grey if tinted, as well as clear. Get the stuff with the anti-scratch and anti-UV coating if you can find it. This *website* has PDFs of product info for Makrolon.

BTW, the dropboards in this photo of my boat are 3/8" makrolon. They're obviously not clear.












AllThumbs said:


> I am being told by a glass place that lexan only comes in clear and that the smoked stuff in sheets is always plexiglass....Is this true?


When you get the stuff...leave the paper on it until just before you're ready to mount them. When you drill the holes, you can usually leave the paper on the Polycarbonate if you use a really sharp brad-point bit to drill the holes. Also, don't forget that you need to drill the holes oversized so the polycarb can expand and contract a bit and to countersink/chamfer the holes for the fasteners on both sides to prevent the holes from becoming a starting point for stress cracks.


----------



## AllThumbs

Nevermind. It is not true. A couple more calls confirmed this.


----------



## AllThumbs

What year is your boat SD?


----------



## sailingdog

2006, but it has been very, very heavily modified from stock.


AllThumbs said:


> What year is your boat SD?


----------



## AllThumbs

This is related to a ropes thread I started in the general forum. Since it more specifically refers to my project boat, I will ask here.

Have a look at the winch for the furler halyard. Currently the halyard for the forsail is 1/8" wire. It winds up on the winch in the pic. The wire goes all the way thru 2 sheeves in the mast to the furler thrust bearing (also in pic) that attaches to the sail head. The wire is badly twisted/kinked at the winch.

I would like to replace this with a 1/4" rope halyard if possible. The sheeves are big enough. I am wondering if the rope will twist when furrling the sail. Also, do I need the winch or can I just pull the halyard tight and tie it off on a cleat. The boat has a seperate forstay.


----------



## sailingdog

Be careful when replacing wire with rope. The sheaves have to be checked that they're usable for rope. Wire sheaves have a v-shaped groove and rope sheaves will have a u-shaped groove. Also, wire halyards can often chew up the exit slots and leave sharp burrs that will destroy rope halyards rather quickly.


----------



## AllThumbs

Sheeves are u shaped. No noticeable damage from the wire. 

can I use rope halyard?

Will it twist?

Do I need the winch?

If no yes and yes, I will keep using the ss wire for now.


----------



## Classic30

AllThumbs said:


> Sheeves are u shaped. No noticeable damage from the wire.
> 
> can I use rope halyard?
> 
> Will it twist?
> 
> Do I need the winch?
> 
> If no yes and yes, I will keep using the ss wire for now.


Yes, you can use a rope halyard - just check it for wear every time you use it for the first few trips.. Will it twist? Yes, but rope will be a heck-of-a-lot more manageable than wire on a boat your size.

The winch? Hmm.. IMHO, you'd be better off getting rid of it (particularly if the handle is fixed) and running the halyards back to the cockpit.


----------



## Classic30

sailingdog said:


> 1/2" lexan ports on an 18' boat... damn..that's a bit overkill.


Yeah.. so are the million-and-a-half 3/16" screws the OP used to fix them in place! There's no way anyone is ever taking them off again - it'd be easier to build a new boat. 

The way I look at it: It's extra hull stiffening.


----------



## sailingdog

I only counted a quarter million on this side of the boat... so your count must be a bit off... I noticed that he also went down the two "struts" between the three openings... damn...that's way overkill..










Hartley18 said:


> Yeah.. so are the million-and-a-half 3/16" screws the OP used to fix them in place! There's no way anyone is ever taking them off again - it'd be easier to build a new boat.
> 
> The way I look at it: It's extra hull stiffening.


----------



## AllThumbs

Hartley18 said:


> Yes, you can use a rope halyard - just check it for wear every time you use it for the first few trips.. Will it twist? Yes, but rope will be a heck-of-a-lot more manageable than wire on a boat your size.
> 
> The winch? Hmm.. IMHO, you'd be better off getting rid of it (particularly if the handle is fixed) and running the halyards back to the cockpit.


It's a 20 foot boat, the mast is *in* the cockpit (almost) . Since I am replacing the halyards, I was planning on running them back that way. Which reminds me, I need to order some "organizer" type blocks and a couple cleats for that. Currently, the cleat for the main halyard is located on the mast. Is it a good idea to use a cam cleat to secure a halyard?


----------



## sailingdog

Allthumbs-

Halyards are best secured with horn cleats or line clutches... it is too easy to accidentally pull a line out of a cam cleat...and that can have really bad things follow it if it is the main or jib halyard.


----------



## AllThumbs

See, that is why I ask. I was thinking the cam cleat would be good so you could douse the sail quickly. I had not thought about an accidental sail dousing situation.

Sorry for so many questions. Pretty soon I will oder stuff from Defender (probably) I want to get it all right. I may just post a list of what I am ordering before I order it.


----------



## vadimgo

Allthumbs,

Do you intent to paint over your red topsides? That colour is it gelcoat or was it painted before?
I would guess that would make a difference in preparation?
I would say if it is a paint (regardless of the type) you would have to sand it down.


----------



## sailingdog

Vadimgo-

It doesn't really matter if the topsides are gelcoat or painted...in either case they're going to need sanding...  However, if he's planning on rolling and tipping with a two-part LPU paint, he may have to strip the old paint so that the new paint doesn't take it off.


----------



## AllThumbs

It was painted before. I have sanded it. Too cold to paint now so it will wait until spring.


----------



## vadimgo

I have similar issue with the shrouds. Same type "terminals". Except my riging is much beefier. Both the wires and turnbuckles are oversized. I will check them again after the boat is on the dry and mast down. Between budget constrains and the safety factor, must decide whether to change them this winter or to wait one more season.


----------



## TSOJOURNER

As far as replacing the wire halyard with line (rope):

It can twist or wrap around the furler (is this what you were asking?) when the sail is being furled. You need to get the halyard tight and make sure your bearing that the sail and halyard attach to is hoisted as far up the forestay as possible so you don't have much halyard showing. Some folks will attach a wire pendant to the tack of the sail to get it to hoist up further if it doesn't go up to the top. A winch to crank the halyard tight will help make sure there is enough tension so it doesn't wrap. I don't know if you could get it tight enough without a winch.

You can always attach a block to the mast below the halyard sheave and run the halyard through it to keep it from wrapping when you furl the sail. However if you follow the above I don't think you will have a problem on this small of a boat.


----------



## zerryda1

*Paint*

Hey Eric,

Just a few thoughts:

Painting the hull:

If you're not going to paint until the spring I would suggest holding off using the hardware store polyurethane and instead use Interlux Toplac for the hull. It's one step, very forgiving and formulated for boat exteriors. It's a bit more $ ($40 to $50 a quart) but I bet it wouldn't take much more than a quart, (maybe two with a lot left over) and worth the superior results you'll get. I used it to paint my 36 ft project boat this past spring with excellent results. It was easy, just me, no assistant. Two coats, used between 3-4 quarts total. (see pics) Interlux is good stuff. I painted my Watkins 27 with Interlux Brightside about 12 years ago and it's just now starting to look a little dull. Toplac is supposed to be more durable!

Painting decks and cockpits:

You may be able to get away with exterior house paints for the deck. They are actually very good these days and fairly durable but I would first take a hard look paints formulated for boats.

Dan

<<<flickr.com/photos/[email protected]>>>


----------



## zerryda1

Sailnet won’t let me post the link to the pics. If your curious go to flickr and look up s2harmonium.

www flickr com/photos/s2harmonium/


----------



## artbyjody

zerryda1 said:


> Sailnet won't let me post the link to the pics. If your curious go to flickr and look up s2harmonium.
> 
> www flickr com/photos/s2harmonium/


Go to the song chain [http://www.sailnet.com/forums/off-topic/30244-song-chain.html] - put up songs so your post count is greater than 10...then you can add pictures etc - anti spam measure...


----------



## AllThumbs

Here is the link: Flickr: harmonium's Photostream

Nice job. I am impressed.


----------



## AllThumbs

Well today I drove 2 hours each way to pickup a bow rail, sternrail, 6 stantions and the life lines off an old Buccaneer 22. As a bonus the guy let me take all the hardware I need to run the halyards to the cockpit. Two camcleats, two regular cleats, two blocks to get me a 90* turn towards the cockpit and two standup blocks to get from the mast to the deck. All in great condition and all will fit my boat. The only trouble is the lifelines have a white plastic covering that is dried and cracked. I might just strip it off and leave it stainless wire. I have also seen that white covering that you can slip over the wires.

My dear wife likes the sternrail and life lines idea. She feels safer 

Eric


----------



## AllThumbs

A post such as the one above is no good without a pic so here are the sternrail, bowrail, stantions and lifelines. My boat had a bow rail at one time but that is it. I have seen some examples of a DS 20 with the sternrail, stantions and lifelines but mine never had them. Must have been an option. The sales brochure shows a DS 20 with sternrail and lifelines.


----------



## AllThumbs

Here is a pic of the hardware I got for running the halyards back. I paid $300 CAD for everything in the above two pics which I think was reasonable. I was pricing just the hardware for running the halyards back and was getting close to $300.00 just for that stuff.

I also got a whole shoebox full of ss backing plates for the above and all the ss bolts, nuts, washers etc.

I had to remove it all from the boat which was a job. I had my 13 yr old with me. Lots of tight spaces in sailboats, and this boat was no gem. Really wet and nasty under the cockpit. Not a nice place to crawl around in a neglected boat.


----------



## AllThumbs

Here is thre DS 20 brochure pic:


----------



## sailingdog

Nice... have fun re-fitting the pulpit and pushpit...that's going to be a fair bit of work. Don't forget to pot the fastener holes and use backing plates.


----------



## AllThumbs

Bow rail should be a pretty easy fit. Sternrail is the correct width but will need to two rear supports moved closer to center. I was going to cut them off, grind/sand polish the rail and use the hardware pictured below to reconnect them where needed.

I am a pretty handy fellow. It will look fine.

I am going to attach the hardware with the backing plates that came with them. I will be rebedding and potting properly.


----------



## AllThumbs

So, I told you I would bring you all along for the ride. Just let me know if this thread is too boring.

This pic is of a cockpit storage locker door (under the seat). It felt about 10 lbs too heavy when opening it so I took it off. I cut this rectanglular hole underneeth. It was filled with 1" of white styrofoam, and the styrofoam was totally saturated with water. I swear the insulation would sink it was that heavy. I just removed the insulation and I think I will leave the hatch this way. I am thinking this storage doubles as a beer cooler. If I bring drinks, I will bring a colman cooler and store it in the cabin.


----------



## AllThumbs

These are the cabin grab rails. I took them off to refinish them. They are in great shape. I don't know what type of wood. They look like oak to me. They had no finish left on them at all. The one in the forground has been sanded. The one in the background is as it came off the boat.

I will sand the other then apply plenty of coats of spar varnish to both. I will thin the first couple coats 50%.


----------



## AllThumbs

BTW, just so you guys can get to know me better, my other hobby is machining. In particular I like to build miniture engines. Here are a couple I have built:

This one is a single cylinder 4 stroke engine

YouTube - Webster Engine Running

This one is a V4 steam engine:

YouTube - 4 cylinder steam engine

This one is an electric solonoid engine:

YouTube - Solenoid Engine

This one is a inline 2 cylinder water cooled 4 stroke. It is 95% complete but has yet to run.


----------



## AllThumbs

Oh, and don't ask me what I use them for. They just run. That's it. Either you get that or you don't. Anyone who has created something with his hands generally gets it.


----------



## sailingdog

Allthumbs-

If you can, drill through the connecting pieces and through bolt them to the uprights for the stern pushpit.  You've obviously got access to the tools to do the job.


----------



## AllThumbs

All those engines were built with just a cold chisel and a rusty file....

Actually I have a small machine shop in my garage. Lathe, cnc mill, bandsaw, drill press, and a zillion hand tools.

The SS tubing on the rails I got measure .991" I take it this is standard 1"? I wonder if they are all .009" undesize. I hope the 1" fittings will fit ok.

Terminology question: If I lookup "Bow Pulpit" in google images I get photos of a wooden chunk sticking out from the bow that holds an anchor. If I look up "bow rail" I get photos of the rail. Which is it, a bow rail or bow pulpit?

Eric


----------



## sailingdog

The stainless steel bit are either the bow pulpit or the bow rails.. usually called rails on a power boat...and we're outnumbered.


----------



## camaraderie

The wooden thing sticking out front is the bow sprit. The metal V shaped "crash bars" on the forward deck is the bow pulpit. The same thing on the stern is called the pushpit.


----------



## sailingdog

Don't forget to carry a nail-polish type bottle aboard with some spar varnish in it... so you can touch up any scratches or dings when they occur...


----------



## AllThumbs

I got two thinned coats on them so far. Now that they are varnished a little it looks too dark to be oak. They could be teak. Does teak look anything like oak? Course grain, fairly porrous. The sawdust feels oily.


----------



## AllThumbs

cardiacpaul said:


> those motors are the cutest thing since thongs!


Have a look at the con rods out of the inline twin. Also the valves have 1/4" diameter heads.

Am I allowed to hijack my own thread?

Back on subject now.


----------



## camaraderie

Really neat stuff. You are clearly NOT All Thumbs!


----------



## Leither

The machine work is terrific. I am envious - I left a full machine shop in the UK when I came over here. I used to build stationary steam engines (and, yes, just seeing them run was enough!) and steam locomotives.

Great work on the boat, too, by the way.....

Stuart


----------



## AllThumbs

3 days here of 70* F. I got a coat of paint on the boat topsides. 2 more coats this week should take care of that. That leaves the deck to paint in the spring, which means I can sail sooner.

While I was at the boat (it is now in storage for the winter), I trial fit the bow pulpit and pushpit. Pulpit is perfect. Pushpit is off just a little but I *think* it will fit without modification. Just need to squeeze it a bit (about 2" too wide). Even the rear supports *should* work as is. That makes me happy.

It's nice to get some paint on the hull and a few coats or varnish on the teak deck rails. These are the very first "improvements" to the boat. Up until now I have just been taking the boat apart and prepping things. Basically the boat has been getting uglier up till now.

Pic soon of the teak parts. (if they are teak)

Eric


----------



## AllThumbs

Leither said:


> The machine work is terrific. I am envious - I left a full machine shop in the UK when I came over here. I used to build stationary steam engines (and, yes, just seeing them run was enough!) and steam locomotives.


Thanks. Getting them to run is amazing. There is no feeling like the first time a home made engine fires up for the first time after hundreds of hours of work. The more noise and smoke the better. Almost better than sex...


----------



## sailingdog

Very cool... post photos when you can... how is access for putting backing plates on the stern and bow rails??


----------



## AllThumbs

Pulpit pushpit install won't happen till spring likely. But yeah, there will be photos. Access for backing plates is good. There is a storage locker along the rear of the boat that is big enough for me to climb inside (the whole last 2 feet of the boat minus the outboard motor well.)

You can see it in the pic below. This pic is not my boat but another DS 20 I looked at (same year, same colour!). I tried to buy it but we couldn't agree on my rediculously low offer. 

Way more room back there than the boat it came off. My goodness that was tight. Had to climb in from the cabin under the cockpit. And my 13 yo kid was too scared to go in there. I am almost 6'4" so good times.


----------



## CalebD

Eric,
Great thread. 
You saved yourself some serious boat bucks by getting that pulpit, pushpit and stanchions for $300 CDN. I am almost ashamed to admit that we paid something like $750 US just for a new pulpit about 5 years ago from Tartan! I knew we were paying too much but I don't have access to a metal shop nor do I possess your skills.
Did you try rubbing any teak oil into the teak before finishing? I know some think this is perhaps a bad idea but teak oil is largely linseed and other oils which is a component of varnish. Simply wipe the piece down with acetone before finishing. Oiled teak looks amazing IMHO.
Keep it coming.


----------



## AllThumbs

Did not try. Just sanded and now varnish. I am quite certain that the varnish won't last. But hey, you gotta try!


----------



## arf145

Love your running report AllThumbs--even the hijacks. The engines are very cool.


----------



## AllThumbs

Here is an image of the rails drying after coat #3. This one unthinned.

Well, I am off to buy some 3/4" oak to build a new companion hatch door/boards


----------



## AllThumbs

arf145 said:


> Love your running report AllThumbs--even the hijacks. The engines are very cool.


I am glad you like the thread. I was beginning to wonder if anyone thought it interesting. I'll keep posting then.


----------



## Leither

AllThumbs said:


> Thanks. Getting them to run is amazing. There is no feeling like the first time a home made engine fires up for the first time after hundreds of hours of work. The more noise and smoke the better. Almost better than sex...


Yep, it is quite a feeling, I totally agree. I'm glad you put that "almost" in there, though. 

Your boat thread is great, BTW, and your progress so far is impressive - keep up the good work!!

Stuart


----------



## AllThumbs

Ahh! $60.00 later for two lengths of oak! dropboards coming right up! The plan is to laminate boards together to make two hatchboards that slide in from the top. There will be a shiplap between them to keep rain water on the correct side. Basically two of these: (idea and image borrowed from another thread


----------



## sailingdog

Wouldn't having the edges with the grain running parallel to the companionway edges make the boards more likely to split there if hit really hard, by say a pooping wave??


----------



## AllThumbs

Hmmmmm. Crap. The idea is to keep the warp down. I really don't want 5 boards to remove. I don't think I will get a wave like that on lake erie, or will I? Maybe I need to reinforce this with 3" screws in from the edges?


----------



## AllThumbs

Well, I drew it up in CAD to get all the dims right. This was going to be the plan. I may just make the vertical pieces narrower so I can reinforce with long screws...

My companion opening only tapers a 1/2" from top to bottom (over 26") so the two boards are almost rectangles.


----------



## AllThumbs

Ok, modified the design so I can add long screws from the sides (after glueing and predrilling) The vertical boards are 1 3/4" wide.


----------



## AllThumbs

Yeah, well, I don't wanna buy teak, so oak it is. We will see how it goes.

The first thing I did was laminate 3 boards together. They are rough cut to size. Here they are glued with 2 part epoxy (the adhesive kind). That is a ratchet strap clamping it all together.

Did I mention I hate woodworking. I'll whittle steel anyday.


----------



## sailingdog

If you don't want to have to do 300 coats of varnish on the oak... coat it with epoxy first, then varnish...the epoxy will keep it from absorbing water.


----------



## AllThumbs

Well, there is one made. I hate woodworking.


----------



## merc2dogs

That looks real nice! You have to show pics with the varnish on!
Wood working is actually pretty enjoyable to me, which is why I am a carpenter I guess.

(edit, don't know if it's camera or my monitor, but I see a greenish tinge that almost looks like poplar)

Been working on the brightwork for the Ariel:

From Ariel coaming blocks

(maybe that will work)

Since that pic was taken I've managed to get the 'caps' done, and have the first couple coats of varnish on, need to get a pic in.

Ken.


----------



## AllThumbs

Nice. My boat has a total of 4 wood parts. The two deck rails, the tiller and the companion entrance door. I will be adding hatch combing so I guess we will be up to 6 now.

My biggest issue with wood is 1) it does not comform to my will! It has a mind of it's own so much more than metal. 2) the dust. It's everywhere!

Eric


----------



## AllThumbs

Another coat on the hull today. It's looking better each time but that polyeurethane paint doesn't seem to cover very well. I should have applied a primer first. 

The rolled on look is just that. It looks like I painted it with a rolller. I am ok with that. The idea was to make it look good from 20 feet away. That's about what I'll have. This boat has been painted at least twice with a brush in the past. If I keep the boat, in a few years I will strip it to the gelcoat and try the 2 part epoxy paint.

Eric


----------



## AllThumbs

I got both hatch drop boards made. I'll do a coat of varnish and post a pic. I hate woodworking.


----------



## AllThumbs

Coat 1, 50/50 mix. You are looking at $65 worth of white oak.


----------



## merc2dogs

Now those look good!
ken.


----------



## AllThumbs

cardiacpaul said:


> So, how do you like working with wood?


Can't say that I like it.

My next woodworking project will be a new tiller. Here is the old one. It's basically a rotton stick.


----------



## AllThumbs

Ok so the tiller will be made by laminating 3, 3/4" x 3 boards together making a 3" x 2 1/4" x 48" chunk, then cutting the shape on the band saw in both dimensions. This followed by lots of shaping with a rasp and sanding. The original tiller was a tapered but straight stick. The new one will also be tapered but also have some nice flowing curves. I have chosen oak and walnut for the laminations. This will give a nice contrast and should look cool. 2 part epoxy will be used again for glueing the laminations. 

Hopefully I can post some pics this weekend as I progress.

Oh, and BTW, this boat had better float....


----------



## Leither

This sounds absolutely awesome. The tiller in my Morgan looks like a teak/oak laminate and also has beautiful curves......

Can't wait to see the photos.

Stuart


----------



## sailingdog

Allthumbs-

If the boat doesn't float, it'll make a real nice planter for the front yard.


----------



## AllThumbs

I think I will leave it strapped to the trailer for the first half hour after splashing, just in case. I mean, I can see there are no holes in the hull, but I have no idea what's going on with the keel trunk, and I can't inspect it while the boat is on the trailer. I hope there is a keel in there somewhere too. Anyways, pleasant thoughts, positive attitude. 

Eric


----------



## zz4gta

hatch boards look good, now only 19 more coats to go! Some advice, do all your sanding outside. I live in an apartment (no place to sand outside) and used the spare bathroom. I had to vacuum the ceiling when I was done. But it looks great!


----------



## timebandit

Looks like if you just put a nice stainless strip over the crack it would shed water just fine.

Maybe one inch screwed to one side and over lapping the other side a half inch?



AllThumbs said:


> Here is the companion way opening. The PO removed the combing and put on this decent looking and handy 2 part doorway. The trouble is the gap between them keeps no rainwater out. My plan is to install some combing and make a new slide out one peice companion way door.


----------



## AllThumbs

Too late. I like the drop boards better anyhow and not sure a center strip would keep the water out anyway. It would help a bit but it would still get in.


----------



## AllThumbs

This boat needs a name. I was thinking "After School" since my wife and I are both teachers. Other options are Grace, Gracie, Joan, Someday.

Eric


----------



## zz4gta

My friends wanted to call mine "Jail Bait". Funny, but I went with something a little more formal. After School is pretty good.


----------



## timebandit

Detention 



AllThumbs said:


> This boat needs a name. I was thinking "After School" since my wife and I are both teachers. Other options are Grace, Gracie, Joan, Someday.
> 
> Eric


----------



## bubb2

AllThumbs said:


> This boat needs a name. I was thinking "After School" since my wife and I are both teachers. Other options are Grace, Gracie, Joan, Someday.
> 
> Eric


Play in' hooky (misspelled intentionally)


----------



## AllThumbs

Old and new tiller. Stay tuned for a pic with a coat of varnish. This should really bring out the contrast between oak and walnut.


----------



## Leither

Very nice job! I am really impressed. And what a contrast between old and new....

Stuart


----------



## AllThumbs

Hanging to dry


----------



## merc2dogs

Looks sweet with the varnish on! You may hate woodworking, but you gatta have a great feeling when you're using what you've made eh? Ken.


----------



## WinterRiver

You may hate woodworking, but it sure looks like you're good at it.


----------



## AllThumbs

Well here is a pic of the finished tiller arm. Still needs several coats of varnish but you get the idea. Matches the kitchen cupboards too


----------



## AllThumbs

Since I am sick of woodworking for the time being, next up will be mast modifications to allow for running the halyards to the cockpit. Currently the halyards exit the mast about a half a foot from the step. At this point it exits via a sheave and is supposed to go straight up 180 degrees to a cleat on the mast. The problem is the exit is too high to get the halyard down to the deck. The angle required would cause the halyard to rub the bottom of the exit hole. What I want to do is machine a new slot for the sheave gizmo close to the bottom of the mast to allow for about a 90 degree halyard exit angle into a block mounted on the deck.

I'll post a pic of the current setup.


----------



## AllThumbs

Here is the mast halyard exit sheave.


----------



## AllThumbs

Rivits drilled out and sheave removed


----------



## AllThumbs

New exit location. Those rusty bolts have got to go too. I also need to clean and polish up the mast.


----------



## sailingdog

Allthumbs-

I would have replaced the existing exit sheaves with a halyard exit slot instead and used deck mounted blocks. You really don't want to be chopping the bottom of the mast into a colander if you can avoid it... Having exit slots line up either horizontally or vertically should generally be avoided on a mast, especially at the base where it may be very heavily loaded.


----------



## AllThumbs

Ahh, I hear you and I had thought about that but I seriously doubt the mast will be subject to enough force to break it there unless the rigging fails first, and even then, the mast will likely break elsewhere. A slot for the halyards would have meant elongating the existing slot to twice the length which would have weakened the mast more than the two small slots. I am confident that all will be well.


----------



## sailingdog

Be sure to cover the old slot with a reinforcing plate at least.. That should help offset the two being in line with each other.


----------



## AllThumbs

That is the plan.


----------



## SailingFlorida

Looks like you are making great progress keep it up youll be painted done and in the water in no time!


----------



## SailingFlorida

What do you use to clean and polish the mast? Thats on my to do list for this week


----------



## AllThumbs

Well, I won't be in the water until spring because the water is about to freeze here soon. But yeah, thanks, I am making progress. 

Last nite I washed the sail cover. It's white and was really gross looking. Looks much better now. I need to replace a zipper and resew a couple spots. Sorry I am jumping all over the place on this project but I really am doing many things at once here.

I have no idea how to clean the mast. I was hoping someone here has some ideas. I was going to try VIM cleaner. No matter what, my mast won't look very good. The wire halyard for the foresail has been rubbing the anodized coating off in places.

Eric


----------



## chucklesR

Good old fashioned metal cleaner is still the best at cheap cleaning - Never Dull. Takes a lot of elbow grease to work it though. I'd try a good splash of (pick your brand) Naval Jelly to chemically clean it without harming the metal, then Never Dull and the elbow followed with Miracle Cloth for the final wipe down. Miracle Cloth won Practical Sailors test of metal cleaners this year. It has a nice wax component that seals the steel so to speak.

Where you sailing out of AllThumbs?


----------



## AllThumbs

For the first summer out of a small inland lake near my home in south western ontario. The second summer out on lake erie I hope.


----------



## bubb2

As Chuckles says, never dull does a good job but allot of work. I had good results with Flitz's and one of those furry balls on the end of a drill.


----------



## AllThumbs

I am still working on the mast. Replacing the rusty bolts and just giving it a general going over. Anyone ever paint a mast? I am not sure I will but I wonder if it's been done with any success? Silver to match the anodizing.

Here is the mainsail cover. It's been washed and a new zipper installed. I know it's not too exciting but you should have seen it before I washed it. I was going to toss it. I hope it will work for the first summer then I will get a new one next winter. The mainsail isn't too new so If I keep the boat I will get a new mainsail too.


----------



## Leither

Hey, the sail cover looks good! I thought mine looked OK from a distance, but when I looked more closely, it has more holes in it than a gorgonzola cheese....

BTW, I am very impressed by the progress you are making. I'm retired and down at the boat most days, but I feel that I am moving at a snail's pace compared to you. How do you do it?? (You can treat that as a rhetorical question - answering it will keep you from working on the boat...).

Stuart


----------



## AllThumbs

Leither said:


> BTW, I am very impressed by the progress you are making. I'm retired and down at the boat most days, but I feel that I am moving at a snail's pace compared to you. How do you do it?? (You can treat that as a rhetorical question - answering it will keep you from working on the boat...).
> 
> Stuart


Well, I have been doing a lot of little stuff, a little bit every day (I haven't been watching TV). I am going to run out of work before I run out of time, since May is a long ways away, and I can't do a lot on the hull while it's in storage. I got 4 coats of paint on the topsides, but the deck needs a lot of prep and then paint. And, don't get me started on the interior. Luckily the interior is just one big fibreglass liner, so, while really plain, isn't too bad for the time being. It needs to be cleaned and some paint, but even that can wait.

There was one hole in the mainsail cover, but I patched it with one of those iron-on elbow patches that you can buy at the fabric stores. They come in a bunch or colours too.


----------



## AllThumbs

BTW, I am thinking "Princess" for the name of the boat. It's also a pet name I call my wife.


----------



## Leither

"Princess" sounds good, but might there be a risk of confusion if it also a name you call your wife? You can imagine the scene on the dockside - er - no, perhaps not.....

Thanks for the heads-up about the iron-on cover repair. I had seen that stuff, but wasn't sure how well it would work.

Stuart


----------



## Leither

PS - from your description of how you are getting through the work, I reckon it is just lack of effort on my part that is slowing me down. Too many coffees, chatting to passers-by and the guys in the yard. I also seem to spend a lot of time driving up and down route 4 getting stuff from West Marine. The manager of the store and I are almost on first name terms!

Must do better

Stuart


----------



## AllThumbs

> Thanks for the heads-up about the iron-on cover repair. I had seen that stuff, but wasn't sure how well it would work.


It may or may not work. I ironed on a patch on inside and outside of the rip. Go as hot as the mainsail cover can safely stand. Round the corners of the patxhes to a 1/4" radius or make the patches round if the hole is small.

Eric


----------



## Leither

Thanks, Eric - I'll give it a shot and we can compare notes next season!!

Stuart


----------



## sailingdog

If you're going to use the iron-on patch material...make sure you sew it afterwards... the adhesive doesn't stick all that well, and if you don't sew it, it won't really stay in place or spread the load across the material properly.


----------



## AllThumbs

sailingdog said:


> If you're going to use the iron-on patch material...make sure you sew it afterwards... the adhesive doesn't stick all that well, and if you don't sew it, it won't really stay in place or spread the load across the material properly.


Yeah that is the best. My wifes sewing machine doesn't like the heavy material very much, so I just ironed it. I patched my camper trailer where some mice ate the vinyl fabric without sewing it 2 years ago and so far it's been ok. I think the patches get a bad rap because they come off of clothes in the washer/dryer. If you use as hot an iron setting as you safely can, I have found they stay on ok in light duty applications (like patching a little hole). Especially since it won't be subject to the temperatures of your dryer ever. For structural repairs these patches are not the answer.

Eric


----------



## Leither

Thanks - sounds like good advice and now I need to get the sewing machine out and give it its 10.000 stitch service........

Stuart


----------



## bennofish

Good luck - all thumbs!

Seeing that rudder jogged my memory about my own. My Starwind 19 has a kickup as well and it took me a long time to figure out that down-haul was just as important as the up-haul.

ben


----------



## SailingFlorida

I like the name thumbs Im thinking of naminging my boat "BEAR" cause its a pet name for my wife (Kel-Bear)


----------



## AllThumbs

My sailboat came with a brand new genoa. It's not made entirely of dacron, but rather some sort of semi translucent material. What is it? Is it any good?

It's also got a window sewn in, which I kinda like.

They are made by Sobstad Storer Sails

See pic


----------



## AllThumbs

Close up here


----------



## sailingdog

Looks like a laminate...maybe mylar-based.


----------



## bennofish

Hi Thumbs,

No idea but it does look similar to the clear window on my jib - but I don't know what that material is either. I'm amazed by the durability and strength of modern sails - seems like 20 or something old sails like I've got wouldn't still be here - but they are.

ben


----------



## AllThumbs

The whole sail is made if the mesh type material except the corners, and the foot. These areas seem to be dacron. There is also a completely clear window sewn in near the foot. The sail has a steel wire cable in the luff. This sail is supposed to furl on the cable. There is no foil. I am wondering if this is a good setup. Will the sun damage the sail while furled? there does not seem to be any specail fabric sewn into the leech and foot to protect the sail when furled.


----------



## AllThumbs

Here is another photo


----------



## AllThumbs

Same sail material? This is sailnet member T34C's boat. (the red one)


----------



## AllThumbs

Today I worked on the rudder. It's a kickup design. I removed the 1/4-20swivel bolt and inspected things. The swivel bolt hole was worn, and the rudder split open at the top. It's made of two joined fibreglass halves with some sort of hard foam/plastic core. I was able to split the halves open a little with a screwdriver and inject epoxy into the opening. I used copressed air to get the epoxy deep into the crack. Much clamping later with epoxy oozing everywhere and it seems as strong as can be again. I also drilled the swivel hole out to 1/2" and glued in a 1/2 x 5/16 bronze bushing. I will replace the 1/4" bolt with a 5/16" one.

I got a line on a 2007, 3.5 HP Mercury, 4 stroke, long shaft, outboard locally for $600.00 CAD. Seller says 6 hrs on it. That seems like a good deal. I hope to go look at it this week.

Eric


----------



## AllThumbs

Motor was sold  Oh well.

Removed this gadget off the deck over the portapotty. I guess it's some kind of vent? Anyway, the top is missing. I guess I will make a new one.


----------



## sailingdog

Allthumbs-

That looks like the base of a mushroom vent. The top part is shaped like an inverted cup, and closes down over the raised collar. They're pretty common and good because they generally don't let much water in.


----------



## AllThumbs

Yeah, I figured it must be a cup on there. I'll make a new one out of aluminium. The cup doesn't need a gasket does it? I figured just a cup that closes down on the lip.


----------



## sailingdog

shouldn't, unless you're planning on submersing it.


----------



## AllThumbs

If I do, hopefully only for a very short period of time.


----------



## Idiens

AllThumbs said:


> Removed this gadget off the deck over the portapotty. I guess it's some kind of vent? Anyway, the top is missing. I guess I will make a new one.


I've got one of those on my boat. They still might be made, since other parts from the same manufacturer are. I'll have to go and look up the name. They have a seagull logo (no connection intended).

But then with your machining skills, you just need to turn up a new dome.


----------



## SailingFlorida

Sorry that that outboard was sold thumbs Im currently looking for a motor and got a line a 95 Yamaha 9.9 Electric Start 4 stroke long shaft that just got everything reworked and starts every time. The guy wants $895 which is a little high but willing to work out a payment arangment. I dont want to pay for docking fees so this motor will be able to come with my gear and the dingy.


----------



## bljones

AllThumbs said:


> For the first summer out of a small inland lake near my home in south western ontario.


Fanshawe or Pittock?


----------



## AllThumbs

Pittock. Good guess.


----------



## AllThumbs

Well,

I have managed to find a shop to move the boat to for the winter. Up until now it has been under a tarp outside. It is not heated but it is new and dry inside and the shop owner will let me work on the boat in there. This means I can get the bow and sternrails and stantions mounted, and also get the deck and cockpit areas prepped for painting. I will also be able to fix the trailer wiring and do a lot of other stuff that would otherwise have to wait till spring.  

The only problem is it will be cold. I will dress up and do the work on reasonable days.

Eric


----------



## bljones

Canadian Tire has propane torpedo heaters on sale this week- a worthwhile investment if you plan to do any fiberglass or paintwork this winter.

BTW, I learned to sail on Pittock Lake 30 years ago. Took CYA courses through the sailing club and graduated from their old aluminum Alcan Petrels to my own Mirror dinghy. It is a great lake to learn to sail on, from June to September. May and October, though, it is hell on hulls, thanks to the dramatically lower water level.

If you want to get some small boat crew time on Erie next season, drop me a line.


----------



## AllThumbs

I had my 15' boat on Pittock last summer. I learned to sail it there. Went out twice with another member, then self taught after that. You gotta love to hate that little lake. Weird winds and tacking every 5 minutes. Great times tho. You are right about the water level. I wish they would leave the water in there a little longer. They open the dam the last week of august for some reason.

I plan on sailing there again next summer with this 20' boat. It's a little large for the little lake but I want to learn some more before moving to Erie. I may trailer the boat to Erie for a week or so next summer if I can get a transient slip. Was thinking of Port Bruce.

Thanks for the invite. I will look you up. Where and what is your boat?


----------



## bljones

I have a Georgian 23, sailing out of Port Dover.


----------



## AllThumbs

Cool. That is where I looked at the S2 8.0 on the hard. Parked by the gate at the marrina.


----------



## AllThumbs

Well, it's cold in the garage but I am bored so I am making the cap for that vent.

To start I am cutting a block of aluminum from a bigger block. Takes a while to cut thru so I figured I would post a pic while I am waiting. Since it's scrap metal, I need to cut out a part that has no holes in it.

If this is of no interest to you, hit the back button on your browser now.


----------



## AllThumbs

Here is the chunk I am starting with


----------



## AllThumbs

In the lathe


----------



## AllThumbs

Opened up...


----------



## AllThumbs

And closed. Wow, that only took all afternoon....


----------



## sailingdog

Nicely done... are you going to paint it or hard anodize it???


----------



## AllThumbs

It's going to be naked....


----------



## sailingdog

You're on fresh water IIRC, so that shouldn't be a real problem. If you were on salt water, I'd recommend hard anodizing it.


----------



## AllThumbs

Well, I moved the boat into the shop today. This makes me happy. No more snow. Winter came early this year.


----------



## sailingdog

What a wuss... need a nice heated shop to work on the boat...  Real men don't need a heated shop...  What's a little snow???


AllThumbs said:


> Well, I moved the boat into the shop today. This makes me happy. No more snow. Winter cam early this year.


----------



## AllThumbs

yeah, uh, I wish. The shop isn't heated. It's got a roof though. 

I am also busy washing all the interior cushion covers. They are white. This is not a good colour for boat cushions. Any way, hot water and a little bleach and they are as white as snow. Next year, new covers.

I called a marina on lake erie. Port Bruce, about 45 minutes by car. They have a slip for $625.00 for the summer season. The economy must be making life hard at the marina's cause that's pretty cheap. I am considering putting the boat on Erie next summer instead of the little lake near by. Erie is scarier....but bigger. The local lake is only 4 miles by half a mile in size, but 10 mins away...


----------



## sailingdog

In that case, I take the wuss part of the comment back... 



> yeah, uh, I wish. The shop isn't heated. It's got a roof though


----------



## Leither

AllThumbs said:


> Well, I moved the boat into the shop today. This makes me happy. No more snow. Winter came early this year.


Absolutely blissful by comparison with the alternative scenario, that's for sure! The first boat I bought in the UK was housed in a warehouse owned by the local yacht club. The PO had paid for the winter storage, so I was able to work on it under cover. In subsequent years, however, things were back to normal. Scotland is not renowned for its tropical climate and so I enjoyed blissful days when it was cold enough to freeze the whatnots off a brass monkey. Ahh, that wonderful feeling of cold antifouling dribbling down one's arm as ones extremities gradually freeze and threaten to drop off and a blue haze forms on one's glasses. Usually, I lost coordination before serious hypothermia set in......

Fantastic job on the ventilator, BTW. Fully up to the high standard you have set with all the other work. This boat is going to be a stunner.

Stuart


----------



## AllThumbs

I went out today and picked up this generator. It's just so cute. It has a 1 square foot - foot print. On sale this week at Canadian Tire for $129.00 CAD. That's around 8 bucks US I think...

It's 120 VAC, 800 watts continuous and has a 12 V, 8A DC output for charging batteries. This should come in handy since the shop I have the boat in has no power. I could run a 200' extention cord but this will be easier, plus handy for other stuff. Supposed to run for 8 hrs on a gallon of gas.


----------



## bljones

AllThumbs said:


> I called a marina on lake erie. Port Bruce, about 45 minutes by car. They have a slip for $625.00 for the summer season.


You might want to check out Bayview Harbour in St. Williams. Slips up to 25 feet were under $600 last season. About the same distance from Woodstock as Port Bruce, and it puts you inside Long Point bay, a nicer environment for small boat sailing... and close to Pottahawk.


----------



## AllThumbs

Thanks! I have emailed them, waiting for a reply.


----------



## AllThumbs

Bayview is also reasonable at just over $700.00 for the season. I think I will go Pittock for one more year and then bayview.

I finally got the cushions back together. I had to replace one zipper. It's all white vinyl fabric which is a PITA to sew. I'll make new cushions next year from regular fabric. The foam is in good condition.

That V berth is a good size for 2, 3 year olds. 

Eric


----------



## geraldartman

Be careful with the fuel. I have a similar unit and had lots of carb problems with ethenol.


----------



## AllThumbs

Good to know. thanks.


----------



## AllThumbs

Was out at the boat today. The PO had lined one of the cockpit lockers with blue styrofoam. I suppose to hold the beer. The problem was it was so wet under the foam and there was no way for it to dry out. I started to dig out the foam (glued in), then remembered to take a pic. here it is half out.


----------



## AllThumbs

Here it is all cleaned out. Needs a good cleaning now, then paint. Do we call him the PO for *P*revious *O*wner or is it that we are *P*issed *O*ff because they do so many stupid things to the boat?:laugher

Another thing I learned today is that even closed cell foam will absorb water, and a lot of it given enough time. The boat is now 10 lbs lighter.


----------



## AllThumbs

Here is a shot of the interior of the boat, in case any one wonders what it looks like in there. Pretty white in there. The white cushions really sets it off...:laugher

I ditched that table today. Firewood.

I need to go back with my 13 yr old. I need someone to hold the nuts on the inside of the v berth while I remove the screws from the outside for the rest of the deck hardware.


----------



## AllThumbs

The deck to hull joint is a shoe box style. It's never coming apart because it's been fibreglassed on the inside all the way around. Looks original from factory that way but who knows...


----------



## merc2dogs

I'm pretty much a loner, and do most boat work on my own, so here's a trio of tricks:

Grab all the vise grips you have, then clamp them on the nuts so they will hit something, then remove from the top.

Grab some wrenches of the correct size, then break the nut loose and tape the wrench in place to hold the nut, works unless threads are messed up or painted, if so then resort to the vise grips 

Use a block of wood and an offset screwdriver, then clamp or tape them in position on the screw. 

To get the hand rails off the cabin top on the Ariel, I used a driver tip from a 6 in 1 screwdriver, and a 5/16 wrench, put the driver in the screw, the wrench on the driver, then tied the wrench to the handrail and removed the screws from inside, they were sex-bolts (tube nuts) so I couldn't tape a wrench inside

Ken.


----------



## AllThumbs

Ken,

Yeah, I have resorted to the vice grips, but I hate when it falls to the floor and damages my pristine interior gelcote. Actually I usually place a folded towel on the floor to reduce the vicegrip bounce.

My kid and I went back and took care of it this evening.

All the deck hardware was bedded with silicone. 

The deck core is peg board! Yes, the stuff with a hole every iinch. If the light is just right (low angle to the deck) I can see all the little dimples in the gelcoat. Very faint but the shadows are there. Weird but effective I guess.


----------



## AllThumbs

Hmm, while I was at the boat last night I figured I would see if the keel would move. Evidently this particular boat is known for the centerboard getting jammed in it's slot. I managed to get it to lift an inch or so by pulling on the cable and then heard the "thunk" as it fell back down onto the trailer keel support. Seems to be free. One less thing to worry about at launch time.

I just hope it floats.

I am thinking about using paint stripper to peel off the layers of paint on the bottom. It's flaking off anyways and it doesn't seem like bottom paint. It's black. Looks like driveway sealer to me. I was thinking of getting it down to the gel coat and then sailing it like that for a season and see what happens. The trick will be to get the paint off where the trailer is supporting it. Maybe I gotta put some temporary jacks under one side at a time, and then remove the trailer supports one at a time. The trailer supports the boat by 4 pads and at the keel bottom.

Thanks for listening to me ramble.

Here is a pic of a nice DS 20. This one is for sale near me. That will be me next summer, except I will put the fender away while sailing.

Eric


----------



## Leither

Eric

Given your thorough approach to all the work you have done on the boat, I have no doubt that it will not only float, but perform every other thing required of it!

I've said it before but think that it is worth repeating - yours has been an extremely enjoyable, interesting and informative thread to follow.

Thank you and I really hope you have plenty more to share with us.

Stuart


----------



## AllThumbs

Glad you like the thread Leither. What you call thorough, I call disjointed and random. Seems like I have 10 things going on at once, none of them complete.

Another thread here gave me an idea. I have sheets of 1/4" clear lexan but I want smoked windows without the aluminum frames. I am going to try adding the automotive window blackout film to the clear lexan on the inside. This will save me over $120.00 in lexan if it works. So far I have cut out the two windows. I have incorperated the new, sleaker? window shapes from earlier in this thread. I am going to drill all the holes and then apply the blackout tint. I will also paint a black band on the outside edge of the windows (after applying the film) so the white fibreglass and sealant won't be visible thru the lexan.

I have pics. Check back later tonite.

Eric


----------



## sailingdog

Welcome to the wonderful world of boat ownership.


AllThumbs said:


> *Glad you like the thread Leither. What you call thorough, I call disjointed and random. Seems like I have 10 things going on at once, none of them complete.*


----------



## Leither

So, let me get this right. You are a man and you are multitasking, is that correct? That in itself should bring you plenty of accolades!

I can assure you that your project does not look at all disjointed from this perspective....

I read the lexan/glass/acrylic windows thread, too. Given the various views there, I will be really interested to see how yours work out. I have started re-sealing my own windows, which are lexan held in with massive rubber gaskets. Although this is going to be OK in the short term, I am going to have to consider replacement of the gaskets longer term, so I am keeping a careful watch on the experience of others in the meantime.

Stuart


----------



## AllThumbs

Ha. Well I had a pic of the clear lexan window but you couldn't see it so I had to wait until the film was on. I used 20% film (20% of the light gets thru). Here it is. I still need to paint the outside edge flat black. The paint will overlap the film about a half inch. I guess we will find out how well this works. Looks great tho.

Funny this boat has two identical windows. Each frame seems to have been drilled at random for bolts. I used the old frames for templates for the bolt holes.

Eric


----------



## AllThumbs

Well, I run an ad locally on the internet (kijiji) for sailboat parts wanted. I got a call this dude had a sailboat mast and boom and all the standing rigging. I convinced him to seperate the standing rigging and bought it.

It's all 3/16" wire with rolled fittings. 4 lower shrouds (my boat only needs 2), 2 upper and the for and back stays with all 8 turnbuckles with toggles. It's off a mid 80's boat. It all looks good. No broken strands or cracked swages anywhere. The price was right.

Now I know used rigging is questionable but my choice was the 35 yr old 1/8" rigging that I have (and I needed to replace one upper shroud) or 25 yr old 3/16" rigging. This rigging was off a slightly larger boat so I need to cut it down a little and buy 6 new staylock fork fittings.


----------



## AllThumbs

The rigging I bought had an adjustable backstay. My rig is fractional but the backstay was not adjustable.

My option now is do I want to incorperate the adjustable backstay into my boat. It would mean adding 2 new chainplates to the transom at the corners. My rig just tied in to a chainplate in the center. This one used a Y type arrangement with some tackle to pull down some hardware to tension the backstay.

Worth the extra effort? If yes, I have a bunch of new questions that need answering....


----------



## sailingdog

Having an adjustable backstay gives you a lot more control over the sail shape... and can be useful, especially in heavy winds with a fractionally rigged boat.


----------



## AllThumbs

Yeah. I know it gives more options. I guess my question then is this: If I back off on the back stay, does that not severely stress the shrouds? The back stay "could" bemade completely loose, and not contributing to the stability of the mast. Now my current dingy doesn't even have a back stay, but this boat uses one.

Now I could rig it so when slack, the backstay is still taught, but it does not appear that this is the way it was with the rigging I bought. I can see where the Y usually was on theis rig. About half way down, which would mean it could be made completely slack. Perhaps this is why it used 4 lower shrouds...who knows.

How do the masts with adjustable backstays stay up? Is the adjustibility limited in some way? Most of the ones I have seen just use a couple purchase rigging in there...


----------



## AllThumbs

Here is the setup I have...


----------



## sailingdog

You could easily design the backstay adjuster to give a minimum amount of tension to the backstay.


----------



## Leither

AllThumbs said:


> The rigging I bought had an adjustable backstay. My rig is fractional but the backstay was not adjustable.
> 
> My option now is do I want to incorperate the adjustable backstay into my boat. It would mean adding 2 new chainplates to the transom at the corners. My rig just tied in to a chainplate in the center. This one used a Y type arrangement with some tackle to pull down some hardware to tension the backstay.
> 
> Worth the extra effort? If yes, I have a bunch of new questions that need answering....


From your previous post, you raised the question of using already-used rigging. Personally, I wouldn't have a problem with this as long as the used rigging is in good condition. As you probably know, the main sign of "tired" rigging is broken strands. However, in my experience, there is a stage before this where close examination reveals that the rigging is past its best. It is hard to describe, but unmistakable (sorry I can't do better than that!). If you are happy with the state of the stuff you have bought and it has no loose ends, then it is probably absolutely fine.

As to the backstay issue, I would definitely recommend it. In fact, I find it hard to imagine doing without it!

Stuart

Stuart


----------



## Leither

AllThumbs said:


> How do the masts with adjustable backstays stay up? Is the adjustibility limited in some way? Most of the ones I have seen just use a couple purchase rigging in there...


Allthumbs - for the first time in this thread, you have lost me! I am not sure what point you are making here. My Morgan has the two main shrouds and four lower shrouds (two on each side of the mast). These do support the mast, but the main fore/aft tension is provided by the forestay and backstay. When adjusting the rake or bend of the mast, then the back stay, forestay and lower shrouds all come into play.

Apologies if I have misunderstood something here.....

Stuart


----------



## AllThumbs

I was refering to the idea that if the backstay is too loose, the mast could topple forward towards the bow. I was wondering if a totally loosened backstay needs to still support the mast in some way. Most of the adjustable backstays I have seen don't seem to do this. Mine will, since this boat was not designed for an adjustable backstay (maybe it's just the two lower shrouds, instead of four), i will set it up so that when it is as loose as it goes, it is still putting just a little tension on the mast.

Eric


----------



## Leither

OK, I think I understand. It's just that I am used to the idea of the backstay playing a major role in the set up and tuning of the rigging. I would expect the backstay to be taught rather than not.....

Stuart


----------



## AllThumbs

Windows are completed. Overall impresion is that they are pretty good but if you need to buy the lexan anyways order the dark stuff. If using existing plexi or lexan and you just want dark windows, go for it. The roll of film was $20.00 CAD and I have a little left over.

As far as how they will stand up? I think they should be fine. The conditions inside a boat can't be any worse than inside a car in the winter time.

The pic shows the inside of the windows.


----------



## AllThumbs

Was out at the boat today. Got every last bit of hardware off the deck. I needed to drill out a bunch of rivits. Rivits will be replaced by ss bolts and nylock nuts. The mast step is staying on, i'll paint around it. Below is a pic of the boat today. I took it before I removed the genoa car tracks and a few other bits. Now I need to prep the deck for paint. I will also temporarly mount the bow rail and sternrails and stantions, so I don't need to drill holes in the deck after painting. I am thinking of spraying the paint on. I don't like the rolled on look I got on the hull. In the spring I think I'll sand the hull a little and spray another coat on it as well. Not going to be warm enough for paint any time soon.

Eric


----------



## AllThumbs

The building I am keeping the boat in is wet. There are no doors yet. It was built in the fall. My friend who owns it can't afford the doors yet. Beggars cant be choosers.


----------



## Leither

Hey, she looks as though she is just ready for some deck paint, some deck hardware and a few windows (odd that, eh?)......

I am really interested in how the spray painting goes. I was amazed that the guys in the boat yard beside our marina were happily spraying in the open air. They did a really nice job, too. Of course, you have the potential advantage of being - er- under cover (ish).

BTW, the windows look great......

Stuart


----------



## AllThumbs

Got the new bow and sternrails mounted. I think I will leave the life lines off for this season.


----------



## Leither

It looks better already! As a matter of interest, what did you use to seal the mounting points?

Stuart


----------



## mrwuffles

Edited post that is wrong because i was too lazy too actually read....mybad


----------



## AllThumbs

deleted - double post


----------



## AllThumbs

Leither said:


> It looks better already! As a matter of interest, what did you use to seal the mounting points?
> 
> Stuart


Well nothing...yet. I will remove them for painting. I just wanted all the holes drilled for them before painting gets done. I am not sure what I will be using. I need to research that yet. Probably bubble gum. :laugher

Here is another DS 20 picture I found. Just so you guys see it's not as ugly a boat as mine seems.

Eric


----------



## sailingdog

I'd recommend butyl tape.  Sticky, flexible, stretchy...


----------



## Leither

I rather like the idea of bubble gum - it is cheap, readily available locally and easy to remove if things go wrong. I guess the fact that it isn't actually a very good sealant might count against it..... 

Stuart


----------



## mrwuffles

silly putty was originally used for hull leaks....ora at least thats what ive heard


----------



## AllThumbs

Well I am soaking the mainsail in the tub today. Luke warm water and laundry soap. Hopefully it will come out nice and white.


----------



## AllThumbs

Well, I hung it out for rinsing, but then it started to rain, so after it was rinsed with the hose, it's back inside. I'll hang it in the barn where my boat is located tomorrow....


----------



## AllThumbs

Wow, I am actually surprised how well that worked! The sail is actually pretty respectable looking now. I am treating just a few stains with a very (too much so that I doubt it will do anything I am afraid) diluted mix of bleach and water, but overall what a difference a simple bath makes.

My method was to fill the tub half way with almost hot water, then disolve a scoop of tide detergent in it. I placed the sail in the tub, then filled the tub all the way up. I didn't scrub the sail at all but agitated the water every half hour for about 2 hours with my arms (basically sloshed the sail around a little. The water looked really dirty so I drained the tub and refilled, adding another scoop of soap. After another couple hours with a few agitations by hand, I loaded the sail into a laundry basket and took it outside. I hung it on the line and hosed it off with the garden hose on both sides. I took it in and today I let it dry. I am really happy with the results.

Eric


----------



## artbyjody

AllThumbs said:


> Well, I hung it out for rinsing, but then it started to rain, so after it was rinsed with the hose, it's back inside. I'll hang it in the barn where my boat is located tomorrow....


That is one Stiff sail!:laugher


----------



## AllThumbs

artbyjody said:


> That is one Stiff sail!:laugher


I don't get it....


----------



## AllThumbs

Here it all dried out. I am really happy with the way it came out.


----------



## AllThumbs

Here is a pic of the bilge area under the cockpit. The PO replaced the forward partition and assoiciated tabbing. I think he used polyester resin for the tabbing as it has come loose from the ply and the hull. I plan on cutting it away and replacing it. The plywood has been wet but is dry now and solid. Once tabbing is done I will coat the bare plywood with thinned epoxy then paint the whole area to clean it up some.

I plan on spanning the bilge area width wise with extruded structural aluminum to build a battery holder 4-6" over the bilge (there is no bilge area in the keel, the whole keel trunk area is full of balast up to the hull floor). A bilge pump will sit under the battery(ies). I know the batteries should sit as low as possible but I don't really want them to sit in the bilge water. The battery used to sit on the hull floor on the left.

The white fiberglass on the top of the pic is the cockpit floor. You can see where it drains directly into the keel trunk in the center. This pic is looking forward towards the bow. The other side of the plywood is the cabin area


----------



## AllThumbs

Here is a pic of the storage area aft the cockpit. It's huge, I can get inside it and I am 6'3". You can see the outboard well in the pic. This area is accesible thru a 2 foot x 1 foot hatch on top to the port side of the motor well. This storage area can collect water too and there is no practical way to remove it because there is a sealed 1/4" plywood partition between here and under the cockpit floor (you can see the bilge hose passing thru the partion on the right). I am considering cutting an opening along the bottom of the partition so water in here can get to the bilge area for pumping out by the bilge pump. I am considering bulding a removable false floor (grate) in this area also about 6" off the hull bottom to keep anything stored in here out of any standing water that may be in there. This area will be painted as well.

Eric


----------



## AllThumbs

BTW don't you think that old sail in the pic above turned out sexy?


----------



## AllThumbs

Making chainplates for the new "Y" type adjustable backstay. They are being cut out on my CNC mill.


----------



## AllThumbs

Cut out. I cut out backing plates too. These will be mounted on the corners of the transom.


----------



## Cope44

Nice job, I enjoy your posts and this thread. You are doing an excellent job on your "Project boat". I have no doubt it will be the best of it's kind..

I plan on using your sail washing method. With all our snow it might just haveto wait until summer. 

Did you four stroke fire and run? Any more picks of those guys? 

Have a good day and thanks for sharing.
Cope


----------



## AllThumbs

I am glad you like the thread. In the end my sail dried in the rec. room spread out over the furnature .



> Did you four stroke fire and run? Any more picks of those guys?


Haven't gotten back to it. Lot's of pics of the build...I will post a few soon...


----------



## AllThumbs




----------



## captbillc

AllTHumbs----- i don,t see any toe rails in the picture. without life lines, it seems it would be easy to slip & go over the side if you had to go forward on the lee side. you are doing a great on this project !


----------



## bennofish

AT,

Very useful pix - thanx for all your hard work.

We often times forget living in the age of fiberglass just how useful wood (plywood in this case) acts as a structural material in boats - even when it's out of sight. For my Starwind 19 the only thing that comes to mind is the compression post for the mast - but I bet there's more!

bennofish


----------



## AllThumbs

captbillc said:


> AllTHumbs----- i don,t see any toe rails in the picture. without life lines, it seems it would be easy to slip & go over the side if you had to go forward on the lee side. you are doing a great on this project !


No extruded toerails but there is a molded in toerail. If I add the stantions I need to modify them so they mount on the vertical side of the deck. As is the foot of the stantions would cover the whole space on the deck beside the cabin, making it hard to go forward without stubbing a toe. They can be modified and I might. Time will tell.

Eric


----------



## AllThumbs

The rudder on this boat is a swing up design. It's a laminated fibreglass over foam design. I don't really like it.  Exactly how much I don't like it will depend on how well it works. For now it's what I have got.

The pivot hole was worn. It had a 1/4" bolt in it. The hole was worn to about 1/2". I enlarged it to 5/8" and glued in a 5/16" ID x 5/8" OD bushing. I will install a 5/16 SS bolt.


----------



## AllThumbs

The top half, the hole was not worn as bad. I just drilled it to 5/16". The 1/4" bolt included about 6 washers from 1/4" up to 3/4". 3 on each side. I guess the PO was trying to spread the load from the bolt out over a larger area. Good idea but it looked cheezy.

I have made round SS plates that will be held on to each side by SS sheetmetal screws to replace the washers.

This pic is the upper portion of the rudder.


----------



## AllThumbs

Here it is with the SS support plate.


----------



## bljones

Nice fab work. Keep it up.


----------



## AllThumbs

Well, I have been looking at blocks etc. to put together some tackle for the adjustable back stay. I could buy some but I think I will build them. I need two fiddle blocks. One needs to be able to cleat the line.

Now, this in no way will be cheaper than buying them. I just feel like building them, and I have the equipment and time. We will see about the skill.

The idea is to make them look "factory".

They will be fiddle style. The blocks will be stainless plate, the sheaves will be delrin. I will incorperate bronze bushings. All hardware will be stainless.

Lets see how this turns out. I will be boring you with the details. I need a couple days to get the materials first.

Merry Christmas BTW, to all you die hards that are still checking this thread. Most have abandoned it by now. LOL.

Eric


----------



## funjohnson

I love this build. Keep up the great work. 

Merry Christmas!


----------



## sailingdog

Mixing bronze and stainless in a single block is probably a bad idea. bronze and stainless will form a galvanic cell if soaked with salt water... then bad things happen. 


AllThumbs said:


> Well, I have been looking at blocks etc. to put together some tackle for the adjustable back stay. I could buy some but I think I will build them. I need two fiddle blocks. One needs to be able to cleat the line.
> 
> Now, this in no way will be cheaper than buying them. I just feel like building them, and I have the equipment and time. We will see about the skill.
> 
> The idea is to make them look "factory".
> 
> They will be fiddle style. The blocks will be stainless plate, the sheaves will be delrin. I will incorperate bronze bushings. All hardware will be stainless.
> 
> Lets see how this turns out. I will be boring you with the details. I need a couple days to get the materials first.
> 
> Merry Christmas BTW, to all you die hards that are still checking this thread. Most have abandoned it by now. LOL.
> 
> Eric


----------



## AllThumbs

This will be the bronze oil impregnated bushing material. I may have to test this combo in my lab (kitchen)


----------



## Leither

AllThumbs said:


> Merry Christmas BTW, to all you die hards that are still checking this thread. Most have abandoned it by now. LOL.
> 
> Eric


But some of us are still very much with you! This latest stage of the saga sounds particularly interesting and I can't wait to see how it goes. I am very envious, having left a completely kitted out workshop in the UK. Over here, I have to operate out of a tool box. However, if all goes well, plans are afoot for something more ambitious.......

Merry (belated) Christmas

Stuart


----------



## junkmeister

Thumbs - I've enjoyed this thread on your rebuild project. I also enjoyed your other hobby of the little engines. We live very near you in Tillsonburg and sail out of Turkey Point Marina. Last winter I went through a somewhat full rebuild of our Hughes 25. It started out as just a little rework and fiddling and turned into the whole nine yards. My son is also partway through a complete rebuild of a C & C 31 Corvette. He also sails out of Turkey Point presently with my old Kells 23 and a Matilda 20. Keep up the good work. Larry.


----------



## AllThumbs

Well, the first thing to do when machining parts is to design them. Here are 3D renderings of the two parts. The one with the extra extension is the one that gets some kind of cleating-ness. The extra bit will be folded in then cut back to form a V cleat.

Eric


----------



## AllThumbs

Next the part profiles need to be programmed for cutting out by my CNC milling machine. Here a virtual part is cut out by the programming software to verify the tool path is correct.


----------



## Leither

Fantastic! What a man. If you just run off a batch, you could cover some of the cost of your project by selling 'em.  

Stuart


----------



## AllThumbs

Leither said:


> Fantastic! What a man. If you just run off a batch, you could cover some of the cost of your project by selling 'em.
> 
> Stuart


Been there, done that. A good way to ruin a perfectly good hobby is to turn it into a JOB. 

Here is a video of another CNC machine I built cutting out "production parts"

YouTube - home made cnc router


----------



## Leither

AllThumbs said:


> Been there, done that. A good way to ruin a perfectly good hobby is to turn it into a JOB.


I completely agree - I was only jesting. 

Thanks for the video link - very impressive. And I had no idea that there was a whole "Homemade CNC Routers" section on YouTube!

When you say the router is homemade - did you build it from scratch??

Stuart


----------



## AllThumbs

The router was built from scratch. My mill is a manual metal milling machine I converted to cnc. The conversion was "from scratch". Here is a rather boring video of it in action.

YouTube - cnc mill-drill


----------



## AllThumbs

Cutting the stainless is tough sledding.


----------



## Cope44

Man I would just drag out the torch, burn the pattern, Grind, Hammer, torch, Grind, Hammer, Swear, Grind, Hammer.

That's a sweet tool. 

Keep it up, I think everyone is still watching. This is one of my favorite threads.. You and your machining makes me long for a proper shop.


----------



## AllThumbs

All four. 20-25 minutes each. I managed to cut them all with one tool. Stainless is tricky because if it gets hot it get hard as glass. Anyone who has tried to drill it knows this. I have about four hours invested so far including design and part programming.

Sniny. I like shiny.


----------



## Cope44

Are the counter sink holes on one of the first two plates on the wrong side?

Did you use the same #'s on both plates?


----------



## AllThumbs

The 3 smallest holes in a triangle pattern on each part are non functional and were drilled so I could bolt the plates down for machining. After drilling they had bad burrs so I countersunk them (with a bigger drill bit) to get rid of the burrs. I got a little carried away on a couple of them. Looks like crap but what can you do? I learned my lesson and the two smaller parts don't have that problem.

Not sure what you mean about the numbers. The larger parts were run off the same program (just ran it twice). Same with the smaller part.

Basically the steps were:

1) cut 4, SS rectangles with band saw
2) run the drilling program on each part with SS rectangles in the vice (drills the 3 mounting holes)
3) mount a block of aluminum in the vice, run same drilling program
4) tap the 3 holes in the aluminium for 6-32 bolts
5) mount a SS rectangle, run cutout program for part one (the part program runs 3 times per part, once leaving .010" on the part, twice more to final size.
6) Do step 5 again for second copy of part one.
7) do step 5 twice more except run part two cutout program

Both parts used the same mounting bolt pattern.

Eric


----------



## Cope44

By #'s I mean program.

Ah I see, I thought it was a change in the original design of the placement of the Allens that connect the plates


----------



## arf145

Cope44 said:


> Keep it up... This is one of my favorite threads.. .


Ditto here, AllThumbs


----------



## Leither

Cope44 said:


> This is one of my favorite threads.. You and your machining makes me long for a proper shop.


I couldn't agree more on both counts!

Stuart


----------



## AllThumbs

Made the two smaller sheaves today. Black Delrin. They are 1.125" diameter, .5" thick, the groove is good for up to 3/8" line.


----------



## wescarroll

I thought all boats were project boats. Mine are any how, good luck, and keep us posted.


----------



## AllThumbs

Coming together. Here they are mocked up with the sheaves. Like the one white, one black sheave per block? Ya gotta use what you have on hand. The larger sheaves are 1.5" Still need to make the pins and bushings. I am thinking of going with Ampco for the pins instead of stainless. Ampco is a hard bronze alloy. Easier to machine than stainless. Stainless would be best but I don't look forward to drilling and tapping a 3/16" hole thru the center of the pin. Stainless is a ***** to drill with little drill bits.


----------



## bljones

how about a bolt through the bushing, and phrenolic washers on each side of the sheaves, rather than a through drilled pin? granted, not as elegant, but using stainless bolts, no worries about dissimilar metal reactions. However, i am neither a metallurgist nor a machinist, so if this is a bad idea, school me as to why- I'm learning a hell of a lot from your efforts. Keep it up.


----------



## AllThumbs

Could do a bolt but don't want to. Just not as pretty and also I would still need a sleeve in there to keep the plates apart so I can tighten it all together. I want to do a 3/8" pin turned down to .300" at the ends. The .300" will fit in the holes in the plates. Then I will use 3/16" bolts with a washer from each side into the pin. There will be a twisting/separating force on the plates due to the cleating action so the plates need to be rigid. I hope the pins and 3/16" bolts are adequate. if not I have a few more tricks up my sleave.

Here it is with the v-cleat. Still needs some polishing.


----------



## Cope44

I can think of one reason why Mr. Thumbs might not not do that, .....



It's not bad ass.


Looks great, You surprised me again by making the sheaves. I should have known you would.
You would be a cool neighbor.


----------



## Cope44

As I watch this thread progress, I think you should have named this thread "I'm a bad ass machinist" Who is not a sailor, but a fast learner and who wants to improve every aspect of my current boat, While learning sailing.

You are the man.
Just make sure when you sell this boat, make sure you sell it to some one here, or show the buyer this thread.

Cope

(edit) Your handle just get's better and better. So just what are you "All Thumbs at?"


----------



## therapy23

I just went through the whole thread and................WOW is all I can get out.


----------



## AllThumbs

I am not a bad ass machinist. It's just a hobby. I am an electrician and currently teach electrical at a local college. The machining is just what I have picked up through reading online and trial and error (a lot of error) in the last two years. I am a hack when it comes to real machining.

I had no intention of building my own tackle for this boat until two weeks ago. I just figured maybe I could combine the two hobbies, and I am bored, and the weather sucks.  If I could be sailing, I would buy the hardware.

Glad you guys are enjoying the thread. Thanks for the encouragment.  More soon.

Eric


----------



## Cope44

Yeah, You could leave out the "I'm a bad ass" part, But we all know you are. If not a bad ass, A GOOD machinist, and I think the rest of My proposed title was correct. Like I said, I wish I had access to Your knowledge, and machines.



Keep us posted.

(edit) Quote from Mr Thumbs. Eric

I had no intention of building my own tackle for this boat until two weeks ago. I just figured maybe I could

Yeah, You probly suck at machining.....


----------



## Cope44

AllThumbs said:


> I am not a bad ass,
> 
> II just figured maybe I could
> 
> Eric


----------



## Leither

AllThumbs said:


> Stainless would be best but I don't look forward to drilling and tapping a 3/16" hole thru the center of the pin. Stainless is a ***** to drill with little drill bits.


Oh, how true that is! I learned all my metalwork skills from my father and he used to mutter darkly if any stainless steel drilling and tapping was required. He used to do the drilling on his lathe with the workpiece held in the three-jaw chuck and the drill in a Jacob's chuck on the the tailstock with only as much of the actual drill sticking out as he needed. He used a patent homemade cutting fluid which seemed to make things a lot easier. I inherited some of this stuff from him, but sadly he didn't leave the recipe....

My favourite metals in terms of ease of working are brass, bronze and cast iron. I can still remeber that wonderful sizzling noise that cast iron makes when you drill it and the stedy flow of tiny chippings.

Sorry, getting carried away here!

Your blocks are shaping up really well and I know that all us faithful thread followers are looking forward to seeing the final product.

Stuart


----------



## AllThumbs

> I think you should have named this thread "I'm a bad ass machinist" Who is not a sailor


Not a sailor! You obviosly didn't read my BFS thread.  

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/general-discussion-sailing-related/49735-i-have-experienced-bfs.html


----------



## AllThumbs

Sorry have not posted in a few days. Unfortunately after the holidays I needed to go back to WORK, so not quite as much time now.

I did end up making the pins from stainless. I figured I needed to try. The key to drilling the small holes in the SS is you need a short drill bit and slow speed. The factory drill bit length is not rigid enough. I cut one down to about 1" of flutes and then drilling was a piece of cake. Tapping was ok too once I found a sharp tap in my tool box. The two dull ones I tried at first were not working too well. It is hard to see if a tap is dull by looking at it.

I am really feeling like I am living on the edge since I did go with oil impregnated bronze bushings in the sheaves. I figured I'll just keep the salt shaker in the galley so as not to create any kind of electrolisis out there on the backstay.

Anyway, here it is before final assembly. I just need to cut down 14, 10-32 bolts to bolt it all together. I will use locktight threadlocker to keep the bolts from backing out. 

I am going to the Toronto boat show tomorrow. First time. 

Eric


----------



## josrulz

Nice work, Allthumbs. I only discovered this thread over the holidays, and have been enjoying reading up and seeing the great work you're doing. Thanks for the thread!
-J


----------



## AllThumbs

That's what I am talking about:


----------



## bljones

nice work. really nice work. are you going to do anything to the v-cleat to prevent chafing?


----------



## AllThumbs

Thanks Mr Jones and Mr Rulz for the kind words. As far as the chafing goes I will prolly just knock the sharp corners off and see how it goes.

Eric


----------



## Leither

The blocks look excellent - you really have made a great job of them, AT.

Enjoy the boat show.......and don't make any impulsive purchases!  

Stuart


----------



## GaryHLucas

Nice looking blocks. A couple of suggestions for your next set. Try Nylatron for the sheaves. Nylatron is used to make the sheaves on large cranes, because it can stand the load of steel cable and is far lighter at the end of the boom than steel sheaves. It also is very slippery, so you don't need a bushing in the sheave. The filler is molybdenum disulfide, a lubricant, and it has a tensile strength of 12,000 psi. I used to use it to make sheaves for machines I built for use in the greenhouse industry, it holds up VERY well in sunlight, much better than delrin.

If you want the blocks nicely deburred, find somebody with a tumbler or vibratory finisher using plastic media. You just through them in and after a number of hours they come out very nicely deburred and somewhat polished looking.

You are right about drilling stainless. However the real issue is getting enough pressure to the drill point to keep it cutting, not sliding. Don't use a battery drill because the idots that designed these things didn't make the handle so you are pushing directly down the centerline of the bit. Most 120vac drills can be gripped between the thumb and forefinger, and you pull the trigger with your pinky. This makes a huge difference! If you have to make a larger hole you are faced with the flutes grabbing and ripping a hole that is way out of round. The way to stop this is to remove the 'hook' from the drill bit first. Hold a stone parallel to the length of the drill bit and stroke it across both cutting edges a few times. This trick is also excellent for drilling copper buss bars, and also for plastics, ESPECIALLY fiberglass, where it prevents a big ugly tear out on the far side!


----------



## therapy23

GaryHLucas said:


> The way to stop this is to remove the 'hook' from the drill bit first. Hold a stone parallel to the length of the drill bit and stroke it across both cutting edges a few times. This trick is also excellent for drilling copper buss bars, and also for plastics, ESPECIALLY fiberglass, where it prevents a big ugly tear out on the far side!


I don't get that.

Nothing happens to the tip that way.


----------



## AllThumbs

He means to stone the cutting edge of the drill bit to give it a squarer cutting face. Sharp more like the blade of a skate than a knife edge. I know this works well for plastics and brass/bronze, not too sure about stainless. It keeps the drill from "screwing" into the material.

Eric


----------



## RXBOT

I agree, also for soft materials regrind the drill to a less included angle. For stainless a greater included angle can take more pressure takes less of a cut per revolution use lots of cutting fluid and slower speed than for mild steel.


----------



## therapy23

AllThumbs said:


> He means to stone the cutting edge of the drill bit to give it a squarer cutting face. Sharp more like the blade of a skate than a knife edge. I know this works well for plastics and brass/bronze, not too sure about stainless. It keeps the drill from "screwing" into the material.
> 
> Eric


I guess I need a pic of the angle.

I only see a dull bit in my head.


----------



## AllThumbs

Not so much dull as a sharp but square edge. Keeps the drill from digging in soft materials but takes much more pressure to cut. Think of the cutting edge of a spade type wood drill bit. I don't bother with it.


----------



## sailingdog

Allthumbs-

As I said on another post of yours, you really need to round and smooth the edges on those block cheeks, especially the cleat section, since the way they are now will chafe through lines rather quickly.


AllThumbs said:


> That's what I am talking about:


----------



## AllThumbs

SD, will do. They are only temporarily assembled right now.


----------



## AllThumbs

Well the boatshow was pretty cool. Nice sailboats. I purchased a boat hook. . If I had an extra $220,000 I could be sailing a nice 46' Jeanneau right now, or maybe is was 42 feet, I can't remember.

Eric


----------



## sailingdog

AllThumbs said:


> SD, will do. They are only temporarily assembled right now.


Good enough... good marine-grade halyards and sheets are expensive enough without the boat eating the stuff for breakfast.


----------



## Leither

AllThumbs said:


> Well the boatshow was pretty cool. Nice sailboats. I purchased a boat hook. . If I had an extra $220,000 I could be sailing a nice 46' Jeanneau right now, or maybe is was 42 feet, I can't remember.
> 
> Eric


Well, I guess ya gotta start somewhere and it may as well be with a boathook! 

Stuart


----------



## AllThumbs

I'll need it. Don't wanna bounce off anything. 

here is one backstay adjuster:


----------



## AllThumbs

Closer up


----------



## zz4gta

Sexy, Good lookin splice.  
I just hate those little v-cleats, but that's personal preference.


----------



## AllThumbs

I hate them too, but it was the easiest one to make. I may try cam cleats on my next set. I need a new boom vang. I won't bore you all with that one.


----------



## kaluvic

I'm new to the forum and have just found this tread
Really nice work Thumbs….. and it’s a good job of documentation....thanks!


----------



## AllThumbs

Hey you are welcome. I can't believe we are on page 32 already.

Next up will be some painting of the deck. Now it's too cold for that so I figured I could at least do the companion hatch, and all the cockpit locker doors, plus the V berth hatch. These are all off the boat right now. I figured I could experiment on these to get the technique down before doing the rest of the deck and cockpit.

Now at first I was gonna go with just off white for everything above the hull, but after seeing some boats with the nonskid a different colour, I figured I would do that too. It looks sexy. I went back to the paint place and got some tan coloured paint for the non skid. I also got some grit to add to the non skid as well, since the non skid doesn't look like it still has it's edge, and I wouldn't want to fish my wife out of the lake with my new boat hook (I already told her I would just hook her bikini bottom with it if she falls over), and If I fall in, well it's curtains I am afraid, since she is afraid of the tiller. The instructions say to add the grit by pepering it onto the first coat once it's tacky, then add final coats. We will see how that works out. 

Stay tuned. Eric


----------



## camaraderie

Hey thumbs...we are not on page 32...we are on page 8. Go into user CP under Edit Options and scroll down to "Thread Display Options" and set it for 40 posts per page...life gets a whole lot easier that way!


----------



## AllThumbs

Ok, we are on post 318 then.


----------



## Gorlog

Hey, looks like you picked yourself up a real beaut (nice looking boat). I'm working on a trailer sailor project boat myself right now. It's been alot of work, and alot of $, and will be alot more of each. But by investing slowly (little bit here, little bit there) the budget's not been a problem. Well, I just came across your post here, and figured I wish you good luck!, so good luck!
- Gorlog


----------



## Gorlog

I just posted a question about my rudder before I replied to your post, and now, come to think of it, you could help me out with that question. Your boat is about the same size as mine, probably with a similar displacement, and mine should probably have a rudder of about the same size as yours. Since I live in the mountains in the desert, which is beyond the coast, there aren't too many sailboats around for me to look at and compare with.) So if you woulden't mind perhaps you could measure your rudder dimension for me?, and then give me post, would be greatly appreciated. Thanks - Gorlog


----------



## AllThumbs

junkmeister said:


> Thumbs - I've enjoyed this thread on your rebuild project. I also enjoyed your other hobby of the little engines. We live very near you in Tillsonburg and sail out of Turkey Point Marina. Last winter I went through a somewhat full rebuild of our Hughes 25. It started out as just a little rework and fiddling and turned into the whole nine yards. My son is also partway through a complete rebuild of a C & C 31 Corvette. He also sails out of Turkey Point presently with my old Kells 23 and a Matilda 20. Keep up the good work. Larry.


Let's get together for a sail this summer. What say you?


----------



## AllThumbs

Gorlog said:


> I just posted a question about my rudder before I replied to your post, and now, come to think of it, you could help me out with that question. Your boat is about the same size as mine, probably with a similar displacement, and mine should probably have a rudder of about the same size as yours. Since I live in the mountains in the desert, which is beyond the coast, there aren't too many sailboats around for me to look at and compare with.) So if you woulden't mind perhaps you could measure your rudder dimension for me?, and then give me post, would be greatly appreciated. Thanks - Gorlog


I will measure. hang tight.


----------



## AllThumbs

The rudder extends 36" into the water and is about 12" wide.

I bought this compass today. Previouly owned, but never used. Bulkhead mount.


----------



## sailingdog

AllThumbs said:


> The rudder extends 36" into the water and is about 12" wide.
> 
> I bought this compass today. Previouly owned, but never used. Bulkhead mount.


That's not a bulkhead mount, that's a powerboat compass and designed to sit on a dashboard or it could be mounted on a binnacle in a sailboat, but your boat doesn't have a binnacle.  A bulkhead mounted compass would have a vertical or near vertical mounting flange, not a horizontal one.


----------



## AllThumbs

No, it's a bulkhead mount compass for sailboats. See the built in inclinometer graduations on the bottom. It's just sitting flat right now.


----------



## sailingdog

Ahh.. the angle of the photo threw me off...  Make sure you get it parallel to the centerline of the boat when you're installling it...


----------



## AllThumbs

Well, I am busy painting the deck and cockpit hatches. This is the first time I haven't just used the paint right out of the can. I followed Don Casey's advice to thin the paint to get it to flow better. I transfered the paint into a masons jar and added thinner one capfull at a time, testing the paint after each capfull so see how it brushed on and flowed out. Two capfulls was perfect. It brushes on and then flows out to a glossy finish with barely perceptible brush stroke marks.

It's gonna be a couple coats and two colours so it will be a couple days before I have a picture of the results.

Eric


----------



## AllThumbs

Ok, should I add the grit in the paint to all non skid surfaces or just those forward of the cockpit? My boat has nonskid finish on all hatches, cockpit seats, etc.


----------



## AllThumbs

Anchor locker cover before


----------



## AllThumbs

Anchor locker cover after


----------



## camaraderie

Much better! What kind of paint did you use?


----------



## AllThumbs

Polyeurathane garage floor paint. LOL


----------



## jgmartis

I am in awe of your skills and this thread is fantastic reading when it 18 degrees (f). 
I have read that it is a good idea to incorporate some cedar into the cabin for insect control. I was planning to do this in my restoration. have you heard of this and are you planning to do it? Has anybody done this and if they have how much did you use and how did it work?


----------



## therapy23

AllThumbs said:


> Polyeurathane garage floor paint. LOL


What about UV?


----------



## poopdeckpappy

AllThumbs said:


> Polyeurathane garage floor paint. LOL


Are you serious ??, I always wondered how a Rhino type Liner Finish would work as a non skid


----------



## bubb2

Look'in good!!!!!!


----------



## AllThumbs

therapy23 said:


> What about UV?


I'll let you know.


----------



## AllThumbs

jgmartis said:


> I am in awe of your skills and this thread is fantastic reading when it 18 degrees (f).
> I have read that it is a good idea to incorporate some cedar into the cabin for insect control. I was planning to do this in my restoration. have you heard of this and are you planning to do it? Has anybody done this and if they have how much did you use and how did it work?





bubb2 said:


> Look'in good!!!!!!


Thanks! I had not heard of the cedar thing. I am not even thinking about the interior yet.

Eric


----------



## AllThumbs

One more pic


----------



## AllThumbs

last one, I promise


----------



## AllThumbs

I bought an outboard yesterday. It's 3 HP. I know a little small but it won't take much to this boat moving on our wee little lake. If it prooves too weak I'll sell it and try another. 

This one was $250.00. 1968 vintage lol. It's a long shaft. These little guys are in pretty high demand it seems. Been looking for a while for one that is decent and the guy doesn't want $500.00. Lot's of short shafts around.

One thing I noticed. It has no reverse. I guess you go backwards by rotating the motor 180 degrees?

I bought it as is. The dude selling it has 7 sailboats! He sails one and 6 sit in his sheds/barns. He had never ran this motor and didn't know if it ran. He had it for a long time. He doesn't seem to work on his 6 boats. He just seems to collect them. The motor looks good. All the paint is still on the prop and bottom skeg. I don't know if that is a sign of how much use it's seen or not. I know a lot about engines but not much about outboards. 

I hooked up a gas tank and it started right up! Water was spewing out of some holes in the leg so I assume the impeller is ok (had the motor in a bucket). Maybe I should replace it anyways? Seems to run like a charm. I downloaded the service manual and will tune it up.

It's a little twin. Runs smooth. Cute too (at least the motor under the cover is). That is important.

Here is an image.


----------



## Leither

Hey, that does look cute and in amazing condition given its age. By an amazing coincidence it looks identical to the old Evinrude my father-in-law has in his basement (except that his is a short shaft).

Your right that 3 hp doesn't sound like a lot, but I bet you are also correct and it will push that l'il boat along. Watch out for those headwinds, tho.... 

Stuart


----------



## mrwuffles

Thats a beauty for a 68, family member had a real old 2hp so old it had no neutral just start up and go!!!! o ya and no recoil on the pull start she was a beauty and for reverse you did just what you were saying turn it around 180 it should be interesting like that.


----------



## bljones

Have you got that motor hanging on a big hunk of phrenolic? Damn machinists- you guys even get fancy when it comes to jury-rigging.


----------



## AllThumbs

Ya, that's delrin. I have no 2x4. I hate woodworking remember?


----------



## AllThumbs

The no reverse "feature" should make docking fun.  I don't know why I do this to myself...Didn't notice the no reverse until i was home.

Either way I doubt the motor will depreciate much.


----------



## bljones

Hey Thumbs, if you want to sell it, I need a motor for my new dinghy.


----------



## AllThumbs

I am going to keep it unless another motor comes my way. I also have a 15' sailboat it would fit on. I'll let you know if it's ever for sale.


----------



## zz4gta

What's the weight of the outboard? Just curious. I'm looking for a smaller outboard 4-5hp that doesn't weigh 80+lbs. My 9.8 is killing me when I take it off for racing. Its a 2 man job.


----------



## AllThumbs

I just weighed it. It's 36 lbs.


----------



## zz4gta

NICE!!!! I want one. Reverse is over rated.


----------



## AllThumbs

zz4gta said:


> NICE!!!! I want one. Reverse is over rated.


Since mine has no reverse, I am with you. Reverse is for sissies.


----------



## therapy23

AllThumbs said:


> Since mine has no reverse, I am with you. Reverse is for sissies.


LOL.

I had a 18 ft. Westerly for a few years. My second boat after a Snark. It is/was a heavy little boat that sailed very well. I had a 4hp Johnson which I dare say is just probably the same motor in essence. A small prop change and it is different.

It should work quite well as mine did for me. When in forward the steering is done with the tiller, not the motor. Reverse is seldom used but a quick flick and then a second or two and then neutral - done!

Forget thinking it will help you in a chop/windward/"help me" situation. The boat will be moving over the chop etc and the prop will be out of the water with the engine revving to destruction speeds (takes about a quarter second) one third of the time. Trust me. I have the T-shirt silkscreen from that lesson.

You can bust up your motor or just learn how to sail IMO.


----------



## AllThumbs

Well, I am busy sanding the deck in prep for the paint. It's below freezing in the barn where i am working. I needed to scrape the ice off first . If the weather ever warms up I will give it a coat of paint.

I bought some bottom paint. Looking at the thing I have no idea how to paint the bottom while it's on the trailer. I may have to prop the boat up temporarily and remove one trailer runner at a time. The bottom needs some prep as well. Lot's of peeling bottom paint on there. 

I wish it was spring. 

I have been making some plans for the interior as well. My wife described it best: "Gross, I am not sleeping in there". Let's see if it floats first. We can tackle the interior any time.


----------



## AllThumbs

I need to make a big hole for the compass I bought. I have seen them on the starboard side on the bulkhead beside the companion way. Is there a rule of thumb as to which side it should go on?


----------



## AllThumbs

While I am prepping for paint I figured I had better cut the big hole for the compass.


----------



## AllThumbs

The only part of the boat currently in working condition:


----------



## TSOJOURNER

AllThumbs said:


> The only part of the boat currently in working condition:


Yeah, but ain't it a beauty!

And your dream is intact. If ya got that, ya got everything.

Take me sailing with you! I'll bring lunch!


----------



## bljones

AllThumbs said:


> While I am prepping for paint I figured I had better cut the big hole for the compass.


looking at that pic , it looks like you cut right through the starboard side of the cabin- you can see the farmyard outside the barn.


----------



## sailingdog

Allthumbs—

make sure the compass is parallel to the boat's centerline, or as close as possible... otherwise you're creating more corrections for it than you want.


----------



## AllThumbs

SD,

When you say parallel, you mean the back must be mounted perpendicular to the boats centerline?

I checked the bulkhead, with a long straight edge, and it's flat accross the beam.

Eric


----------



## AllThumbs

bljones said:


> looking at that pic , it looks like you cut right through the starboard side of the cabin- you can see the farmyard outside the barn.


Yeah, you are looking thru the port on the side.


----------



## sailingdog

Yes, the lubber line (which you read the compass by) should be parallel with the boat's centerline, and the back or mounting flange should be perpendicular to the boat's centerline.


----------



## AllThumbs

Ha! I was looking at the mainsail of my boat. It has no reef points. Doing some research I discovered that this boat has roller reefing on the main. The boom gets pulled towards the stern(spring loaded), unlocking it. It then can be rotated and the sail wraps around the boom. When happy with the reef, just allow the boom to snap back forward and it locks in place (square peg in square hole).


----------



## Leither

Well, well - it'll be interesting to see how that works in the heat of the moment....  

My old Morgan has an early form of roller reefing, too, but it is operated using a handle at the mast end of the boom. I have read a number of Morgan owners declaring this to be a less than happy arrangement, but I sure find it easier than the old slab reefing that I ahve been used to in the past!

Stuart


----------



## AllThumbs

Reefing on the fly would be fun! But so is reefing my 15 footer. I would reef it at the dock.

I'll try it out. If any one else has experience with this, let me know.

E


----------



## TSOJOURNER

My watkins 23 has the same kind of reefing system on the boom.

Just pull and twist


----------



## AllThumbs

BigCountryEsq said:


> My watkins 23 has the same kind of reefing system on the boom.
> 
> Just pull and twist


Do you like it?


----------



## sailingdog

Be aware that most older boom roller reefing systems were pretty poor in terms of keeping sail shape. Most people who have had them, have switched to slab or jiffy reefing.


AllThumbs said:


> Ha! I was looking at the mainsail of my boat. It has no reef points. Doing some research I discovered that this boat has roller reefing on the main. The boom gets pulled towards the stern(spring loaded), unlocking it. It then can be rotated and the sail wraps around the boom. When happy with the reef, just allow the boom to snap back forward and it locks in place (square peg in square hole).


----------



## AllThumbs

When I replace the mainsail, I will put a couple reef points in for slab reefing.


----------



## AllThumbs

Was out today again. More prepping the deck for painting. It's still cold here. Minus 4* C. today. Tomorrow will be +6* C. Tomorrow I hope to finish sanding/prepping for paint. The idea is to be ready for some warmer weather in March. If it ever gets over 15* for a couple days I want to be ready to put a coat of paint on. I took a couple pics of where we are at.

I also changed the ownership for the boat into my name today. Wouldn't you know it there is no fee for this. Who knew?


----------



## AllThumbs

POV shot:


----------



## SecondWindNC

Just found this thread. Haven't read every page but managed to kill most of an hour scanning through a good number of them. What an incredibly thorough documentation of your project! Including the photos. Thanks for sharing this with the forum. Can't wait to see her start to come back together. She's going to be a very sharp looking little vessel, and I know you'll enjoy sailing her, not to mention the reward of knowing you brought her back to life.

Maybe it's a little silly at this point in the process, as you're all wrapped up in the refurb process (and it's also possible you've already answered this somewhere in the thread and I missed it), but do you have a name for her?

Well done so far, and I look forward to seeing the rest!


----------



## CalebD

Eric,
Regarding the wrap around boom reefing system: all Tartan 27's came with this system I believe. Most current owners use a conventional (slab or jiffy) reefing system instead of the wrap around boom approach. As SD noted, the sail shape seems to be better. I can't imagine trying to wrap the sail up around the boom with any pressure on it.
I will volunteer that we have NOT tried the wrap around system as our boat came set up with conventional reefing and several fittings for reefing lines have been added to our boom that could hurt the sail if wrapped tightly.
Try it out and see what you think about it. Heck, you are a handy guy, you could probably add the grommets to your own sail which would not involve working with any wood at all!
I am also curious if you have a name for her yet?


----------



## AllThumbs

hey thanks, glad you like SecondWind.

Well, I would hate to add grommets for reefing without adding reinforcements at the clew and tack. I could do that, I have a friend with industrial sewing machines, but why bother if I will replace the sail? I hope to replace the sail next winter (if I like the boat).

I keep struggling with the name. I really want "Grace" (daughters middle name, and also what God has provided me) but its really common and I don't want to slight my two sons by naming it after her. I am considering "After School", (wife and I are teachers) but I think a boat should have a female name. Then there is "Princess" but this is an old boat so that name doesn't really fit her that well. I like "Natalie" or "Natalie Joan" after my wife but she isn't sure. And so I go 'round and 'round. I might need to have a sailnet poll....


----------



## AllThumbs

I was trying to look her up by her HIN to see if she has been named before but no luck so far. Anyone have a link for this info?

HIN # SCW20027M73L Schwill Yachts (Canadian Manufacturer)

Eric


----------



## bennofish

Hi Thumbs,

Thought I'd put in a name suggestion: how 'bout *Orphie* - meaning beautiful voice in Greek. Though it is a boy's name - who would know!

Keep up the good work!

bennofish


----------



## AllThumbs

Benn,

I am honoured to have attracted all 4 of your Sailnet post so far! Thanks for the name suggestion too.


----------



## therapy23

AllThumbs said:


> Reefing on the fly would be fun! But so is reefing my 15 footer. I would reef it at the dock.
> 
> I'll try it out. If any one else has experience with this, let me know.
> 
> E


I had a Westerly Nimrod, dinghy rigged, that had a crank handle on the boom. I had trouble with the sail shape when reefing until I learned how to do it. Obviously if the sail is stretched out your shape will never be very good.

What I learned to do was to raise the boom way up (I mean way up- we're talking rediculous, like 25-30 degrees - looks really silly - WAY UP) which left the main looking totally wrong and then crank the boom. This allowed the leech to be rolled up further aft all by itself. When the sail was reefed to the proper point the topping lift was eased. This worked really well and reefing was done while sailing as the main was still drawing a little even with the poor shape because of the boom being so high. This condition in the main also keeps tension on the sail evenly so it rolls up better/more evenly.

My sail had two sets of grommets/eyes as reef points along the sail which helped to keep shape after reefing. There were none at tack and clew..

When you roll it you must pay attention to how the bolt rope winds around the boom. You want it to wrap neatly down the boom and not bunch up in a pile at the front of the boom as this will tend to create a larger belly in the sail.

You are making this an absolutely gorgeous little boat.


----------



## AllThumbs

Thanks! I am enjoying posting.


----------



## AllThumbs

I trail fitted the new windows. If you have foollowed this thread from the beginning you know that I wanted a new window shape. I needed to cut the opening larger for the new look. Here is the original window:


----------



## AllThumbs

Here with the new window temporarilly installed. I wanted to trace it so I could modify the opening.


----------



## AllThumbs

Here is the boat after prepping deck and hull for paint. I already gave it a few coats of paint on the hull in the fall. I want to try and "Roll and Tip" this final coat on. Not sure if this works with one part paints. I will practice first. I wanted to scuff up the paint before painting so the last coat will stick, and to get rid of the "orange peel" look from the foam roller I used. I lightly sanded it, without going thru the paint anywhere.

The deck is also ready for paint finally. I will do the same two tone I used on the hatches a page or two back. Need warmer weather first. The plan will be to paint the deck in a couple steps. Maybe cockpit one day, deck the next. Once a couple coats are on there, the non skid last. 

I can't wait to see it coming together. I have done a lot of work but it's discouraging not to be able to see big improvements. Lots of peice meal and prep work so far.


----------



## sailingdog

What, you're not done yet???  Looking good... keep up the good work.


----------



## Leither

AllThumbs said:


> I can't wait to see it coming together. I have done a lot of work but it's discouraging not to be able to see big improvements. Lots of peice meal and prep work so far.


I know exactly what you mean, Thumbs. However, as an avid follower of this thread, I also know what a heap of good work you have done and how much of that will result in having quality items to fit to the boat when the time comes. I am betting that, once you get the painting over and done with, things will begin to happen pretty quickly and, boy, will it look good!!!! 

Stuart


----------



## AllThumbs

Dog, if the weather would cooperate, I am telling you this thing would be sailing by now. I need to move to florida.


----------



## AllThumbs

Leither said:


> I know exactly what you mean, Thumbs. However, as an avid follower of this thread, I also know what a heap of good work you have done and how much of that will result in having quality items to fit to the boat when the time comes. I am betting that, once you get the painting over and done with, things will begin to happen pretty quickly and, boy, will it look good!!!!
> 
> Stuart


Thanks Stuart! Thanks Dog!

It was nice to see the window on there. I like the look. The tint I put on the lexan looks better in the pics than in real life, but it will have to do.

I am hoping to paint the inside of cockpit lockers and inside the anchor locker this weekend. It's supposed to be in the mid teens (degrees C). I would like to do it friday but my darn job keeps getting in the way. I gotta work till 2:00 on friday. Maybe I will wash all the dust off it friday afternoon.


----------



## sailingdog

LOL... That is probably true... 


AllThumbs said:


> Dog, if the weather would cooperate, I am telling you this thing would be sailing by now. I need to move to florida.


----------



## bljones

Thumbs, if you need a hand painting, let me know. R and T is easier with two people.


----------



## AllThumbs

Thanks for the offer sir! Still have that radio available? Im still interested. When do you usually splash your boat in the spring?


----------



## bljones

I plan to be hull wet by May 15. Come on down. Still have the radio for you. No hurry on that.


----------



## AllThumbs

I'll try to be there. I may have to work. The 15th is a Friday.


----------



## AllThumbs

Well, yesterday was a very nice warm day so I did a little painting. Here are the before and after pics of the one cockpit locker. This being the one the PO had lined with blue Styrofoam


----------



## zz4gta

That's awesome, what paint are you using?


----------



## AllThumbs

The paint is Polyeurathane garage floor paint. 

We have had a few warm days here. Whenever it's over 10 degrees C. I go paint. Wednesday it's supposed to be 14 degrees.


----------



## scottyt

this poly floor paint is driving me nuts, no body carries it here. not at lowes, home depot or walmart. i went in to duron but the stuff they have is 50 a gallon and i have heard a price of 25 or so per gallon on here so i dont know if its the right stuff

here all the floor or porch paint is latex, the closest stuff that is poly i found was at lowes, its walkway paint and is a flat finish. 

home depot has a one step epoxy based garage floor paint, but then you read close and its a acrylic latex


----------



## AllThumbs

Hey scotty, I went to a paint store for mine. Called "Colour Your World". It wasn't at any big box store here either. Try a decorating place that just has paint and wall paper.

BTW, use at your own risk. I have no idea how it will work out for me in the long term. I just like to try stuff...

Eric


----------



## AllThumbs

Well, here is the deck painted, minus the non skid. Getting there. I will look much better once the non skid is painted. The non skid is on top of the seats, bridgedeck and gunwhales. All the dirty looking bits in the pic....Hang on, more soon...


----------



## Watermelon

Looks great! Keep up the great work. I certainly enjoy reading this thread.


----------



## AllThumbs

Had to try out the drop boards I made in the fall. Fit is good. I need to make the combing yet...

















I also made these boards to fit in the openings in the cabin seats. I have no idea what the PO did with the originals. These need a bunch or coats of varnish.









You can barely see the openings that need the covers here. 4 covers on the benches and one larger one in the V berth. Now we won't fall in the storage areas when we go to sit down.


----------



## GraemeInCanada

Wow! Finally made it through this whole thread, just found it today. Great job and great journal! You'll thank yourself in the future when you're curious as to what exactly you did again and how did the boat look before.

Really interesting thread, looking forward to following it as you continue to build.


----------



## sailingdog

Looking good Allthumbs..BTW, you should secure that wire in the port side locker as high as possible.


----------



## AllThumbs

Hey thanks!

SD, ha! If that was the only wire I need to secure! Electrical needs to be all redone! I will start with the bilge pump then redo the rest as time permits. No night sailing for me this summer. Wiring will be done when I do the interior refit. Right now I just gotta get 'er so she sails. I will tuck that one up out of the way for now so it doesn't get hooked by whatever.

Eric


----------



## AllThumbs

Well, back at it. All masked and ready for non skid paint. I put the first coat on after this masking job and then the grit was sprinkled on. Another coat tomorrow. Then the deck will be ready for the hardware again. I bought a tube of 3M 101 for the bedding.


----------



## AllThumbs

Ahhhh, got the non skid all done. I really love how it came out. It's really nice to see this boat starting to come together. I will be afraid to sail it because it might get dirty. How many of you guys take your shoes off when sailing to keep the boat clean?


----------



## donhaller

*Omg!*

I began reading this thread a while back and took a lot of interest then, but somewhere got interested in other things. Today, sitting here while its cold and rainy outside, I went back to the beginning of this thread and went through the whole thing up to your last posts. All I can say is Wow!

I just bought a little C&C 25 back in November and haven't done hardly anything compared to you. I'd love to start taking it apart to re-bed the hardware and paint the decks as you have done. I'm afraid if I get started now, I'll never sail it this year.

Great work. I know you'll be very proud of that boat when its done!


----------



## AllThumbs

Hey thanks guys. 

The original non skid is a raised pattern moulded into the gelcoat. I just masked them off, painted them with polyeurathane paint, sprinkled on sand (actually non skid "grit" from the paint store) while the paint was wet, then once the paint dried, another coat of paint. Remove tape and voila! We will see how it wears. It might be hard to clean.

Eric


----------



## sailingdog

Looking good...what'd you use for the non-skid??


----------



## AllThumbs

SD, see post above yours


----------



## AllThumbs

I really like how it turned out. We will just need to see how it all wears. I went into this with eyes wide open, knowing full well I am using a paint that is not intended for this purpose. I just needed to see for myself (This always seems to be the case for me). We will see if it's a one, two three or more season paint job. It's a lot of work, but the work is the fun part, so if I need to do it all again next winter, I will have something to keep me busy and happy next winter too.


----------



## therapy23

AllThumbs said:


> I
> It's a lot of work, but the work is the fun part, so if I need to do it all again next winter, I will have something to keep me busy and happy next winter too.


Dang!

When I need my boat painted I will pay for your trip to Florida and after the painting is done (you can pretty much paint all day every day) I will take you for a cruise.

Such a Deal!!!


----------



## SailingFlorida

PAINT IS LOOKING SWEET THUMBS! Lets hope it last a few seasons for all the work you have put into it. Ill be painting the bottom of my boat next once I get some cash freed up. Keep up the good work


----------



## AllThumbs

Hey, thanks! What the photos hide is all the brush marks. There are plenty


----------



## AllThumbs

Well, two nice days in a row so I put two coats on the hull. I used the roll and tip method to take care of the roller look. It did that, now it has that brushed on look! Either I didn't thin it enough, it's too cold, I don't know what I am doing, it doesn't work with the poly paint I am using, or all of the above! Anyways the result is still better than the roller look, and hey, let's face it, it's an old boat! No picture today. Too boring. I'll take a pic after the boot stripes are on. Later this week I hope. Then it will on to bedding the deck hardware and fitting the windows.

Eric


----------



## zz4gta

I'm sure wet sanding and a buffer could smooth it out.


----------



## AllThumbs

ehhh, it looks fine as is. I am moving on.


----------



## AllThumbs

Here we go! I like it.


----------



## bljones

Ooooooooohhhhh..... Aaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh!!!

Nice job.


----------



## AllThumbs

bljones said:


> Ooooooooohhhhh..... Aaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh!!!
> 
> Nice job.


Hey thanks! Over 20,000 views now. Who knew?


----------



## MorganPaul

Man that boat looks brand-new. Nice job. Now get out and sail the F out of her.

Like Maria Bartiromo, she looks good in red.

Paul


----------



## AllThumbs

Sail her? What if she gets dirty, or worse, scratched?


----------



## AllThumbs

Well, I have been out there bedding hardware. I got some of the hatches back on.









Here is a close up of the non skid









I also mounted the windows









I needed to touch up the winches. Both of them would sieze up if you tightened the bolt from the top all the way down. Took a few thou off the shoulder at the bottom. Sorry about the focus. Al least the background is in focus!









Lemme know if your are getting tired of the pics. I could do less updates with less pics but more progress if you like.

Eric


----------



## WinterRiver

Don't even consider stopping the pics. And don't slow down on the updates. 

Anyone who's considering getting a project boat needs to read this thread from the beginning. Don't skip the end!

Please? Thank you.


----------



## AllThumbs

Just one pic today. More and more hardware is going back on....


----------



## therapy23

Don't stop.

There are lots of folks who envy your skills.


----------



## josrulz

AllThumbs said:


> Lemme know if your are getting tired of the pics. I could do less updates with less pics but more progress if you like.


Me like pics! 

Of course, your progress is more important than my entertainment, so do what you gotta do. Just letting you know I'm diggin' the pics.
-J


----------



## AllThumbs

Eh, the pics don't impede my progress. I just thought it might be more interesting for you all if I took less pics but with more done between pics. Thought maybe this thread is getting a little long and boring.


----------



## nereussailor

Hey All Thumbs,
I just have to tell you I started reading this thread from the beginning about 2 hours ago, and couldn't stop. You are an extremely talented individual and will be well rewarded when you get her in the water. Keep up the good work, and don't slow down on the pics. I really enjoy a project in the works. I wish that I would have documented my Hunter 30 project when I started it. 

Thanks again,

Dave


----------



## zz4gta

over 21,000 views, I doubt people are getting bored.


----------



## therapy23

*WHERE ARE TODAYS PICS!!!!!!*


----------



## AllThumbs

Hey, thanks. I'll keep going then.

Today, I permanently mounted the bow and stern rails:










Here is the stern rail. Note the right hand leg didn't end up on the boat. This sternrail came off a buccaneer 24.










Here is a close up of what was done. I figured this was easier than cutting the legs off and moving them inboard. Don't ask me why the tube is dented. I had to bend the flange and got carried away with the hammer. I cut the opposite side of the flange off. This will work, but it woulda been nice if it all bolted right on.










I am using 3M 101 to bed things. I do it a little differently than recomended. They say you should mask off the hardware and the deck, bed it, smeer/fillet the sealant, then remove tape. I am too lazy for all that. I just goob it on and it all squeezes out everywhere:










Once everything is tight, I dip a rag in some varsol and clean it up. If you try this, make sure the varsol doesn't affect your finish:


----------



## sailingdog

Nice job on countersinking the fastener holes.. I see you've been paying attention.


----------



## AllThumbs

sailingdog said:


> Nice job on countersinking the fastener holes.. I see you've been paying attention.


I pay attention......sometimes. I am somewhat thick that way. 

It seems I have lost a cleat somewhere....very distressing. Maybe I will find it yet...


----------



## arf145

I've been away for a week, but it is comforting to check in and see that you've made so much progress on our--oops, I mean, your--boat! Nice.


----------



## AllThumbs

Well, I found the missing cleat. It was in the box with the other hardware.  I have almost all the hardware back on. No pics since it doesn't look much different. Next will be the wood parts. Basically the teak deck rails and companion combing. After that the boat will come home and be re-rigged and all running rigging replaced. Finally bottom paint and then she should be ready to be splashed.

I may start working on the inside this summer...was going to wait till next winter. We will see. I won't sacrifice a single sail because I am working on it.


----------



## AllThumbs

I got the hand rails installed. There was a tractor sitting in the building I am in which offered a different perspective. I climbed up on the roof of the tractor:


----------



## MorganPaul

Looks good man!
She looks good in red.


----------



## AllThumbs

I fastened the companion hatch coaming today:










There were spacers between the pintle/gudgeon and the transom. Presumably so the whole rudder business clears things back there. They were wooden, and one was missing. I made new ones from Delrin. Here they are. You can see the wooden one there too.










I made them on my CNC machine. I took a short video: Not much to see really...

YouTube - 136 0219

Here they are on the boat:










Eric


----------



## AllThumbs

Well, I was getting ready to order the vinyl letting for the registration and name.

But alas, I was bored today. I got done teaching early, and the weather sucks, so I started to think of ways I could do the lettering myself. Here is my attempt. Warning, this should only be attempted by folks who have too much time on thier hands:

First, I went to walmart and bought a roll of shelf lining material. It's self adhesive with a paper backing. I want to use it as a masking material for painting the numbers on the boat. I picked up a second roll which is "low tack - repositionable", without the paper backing too. Total cost: $5.08 for both.

Next, I drew up the registration numbers in autocad. 3" tall, I used "Arial Black" as the font and made it Italics just for fun. This can be done in Word too, but I couln't figure out how to reverse the text in Word, and I know how to do it in CAD. I printed the reversed letters on the back of the lining material. On the paper backing side.










Next, I cut out the letters. I left the outside of the letters as the paint mask.










Last, I stuck the plastic side of the mask to the Low tack lining material. This will just hold the mask together while I position it on the boat.










Basically it will go like this:

1) peel the backing paper off the mask
2) carefully place numbers in position and stick
3) remove the low tack plastic
4) paint the numbers on
5) remove the shelf liner mask

If I have success, I will do the boat name too.

Eric


----------



## scottyt

eric i did the name on my boat too, i just printed the letter out and used a razor blade to cut them out of sheet vinyl that cost me 10 bucks. if you can cut it well enough for a stencil you can cut it well enough from vinyl. 

why risk the paint getting under the edge, with vinyl and some soapy water you can move em around till you like how they look the squeegee out the water


----------



## AllThumbs

The numbers worked pretty good. I have mocked up (photoshop) my boat lettering.

Top is Comic Sans MS bold - 4" capital letters followed by 3" lowercase
Next is Arial Black - all 4" letters
Next is also Arial Black - all 4" letters
Last is Arial Black - 4" capitals and 3" lowercase

All of them are in italics

What say you?


----------



## sailingdog

Of your choices, I think the Comic Sans is the best.


----------



## AllThumbs

I think this is what will happen. Comic Sans, 4" tall letting, Italics:


----------



## anthon

PLEASE don't use Comic Sans.
That font is so over-used. Its was created for use in cartoon speech bubbles and has been (mis)used on signs, menus and dodgy websites ever since.

Just my opinion, mind


----------



## therapy23

Wellll.........I think the Comic Sans looks the best but I think the name of a vessel still should be on the stern, not sides. But then if I get my cat and have a dingy on davits then no one will know who I am..........Hmmm.......could be good.


----------



## AllThumbs

Yeah, the problem with the stern is there is a rudder and outboard on there. You are right tho, Maybe it needs to go on the stern. I would have to make it a lot smaller.


----------



## AllThumbs

How about this one?










Here is the other side, slanted the other way:


----------



## captbillc

AllThumbs----- on my double ender with the pointed stern i have the hailing port ( DULUTH MN ) on each side at the stern, and the name (ELAINE TYLER) on each side near the bow. i don't have numbers , since it is documented.


----------



## AllThumbs

AllThumbs said:


> Well, I was getting ready to order the vinyl letting for the registration and name.
> 
> But alas, I was bored today. I got done teaching early, and the weather sucks, so I started to think of ways I could do the lettering myself. Here is my attempt. Warning, this should only be attempted by folks who have too much time on thier hands:
> 
> First, I went to walmart and bought a roll of shelf lining material. It's self adhesive with a paper backing. I want to use it as a masking material for painting the numbers on the boat. I picked up a second roll which is "low tack - repositionable", without the paper backing too. Total cost: $5.08 for both.
> 
> Next, I drew up the registration numbers in autocad. 3" tall, I used "Arial Black" as the font and made it Italics just for fun. This can be done in Word too, but I couln't figure out how to reverse the text in Word, and I know how to do it in CAD. I printed the reversed letters on the back of the lining material. On the paper backing side.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Next, I cut out the letters. I left the outside of the letters as the paint mask.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Last, I stuck the plastic side of the mask to the Low tack lining material. This will just hold the mask together while I position it on the boat.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Basically it will go like this:
> 
> 1) peel the backing paper off the mask
> 2) carefully place numbers in position and stick
> 3) remove the low tack plastic
> 4) paint the numbers on
> 5) remove the shelf liner mask
> 
> If I have success, I will do the boat name too.
> 
> Eric


Well here are the results of this method:


----------



## AllThumbs

Got the boat home and the mast back up on the old rig for now


----------



## AllThumbs

Ran the halyards back. I like it. A couple weeks to launch....


----------



## LittleWingCA

AllThumbs:

Great series!! Are you going to paint or powder coat the mast and boom now that you have spent so much effort on the hull?


----------



## AllThumbs

nahhh. Not worth it to me.


----------



## Leither

Eric

I've been away for a while in the UK and just got back in time to see the photo of your boat on its trailer. It looks fantastic. You have done a great job. And just wait till you get it in the water.......!

Stuart


----------



## TSOJOURNER

you might try looking at a book called "Sailors' Secrets Advice from the Masters." it has a whole big section on refinishing your boat. i picked up mine at borders books... the isbn # is 978-0-07-134869-0...i dont know if this will help but you can try


----------



## therapy23

samonsn said:


> you might try looking at a book called "Sailors' Secrets Advice from the Masters." it has a whole big section on refinishing your boat.


LOL

He is amost done with it.


----------



## AllThumbs

samonsn said:


> you might try looking at a book called "Sailors' Secrets Advice from the Masters." it has a whole big section on refinishing your boat. i picked up mine at borders books... the isbn # is 978-0-07-134869-0...i dont know if this will help but you can try


I have Don Casey's Complete Illustrated Sailboat Maintenance Manual

It's a great resource!


----------



## TSOJOURNER

where did you get it at?


----------



## AllThumbs

amazon


----------



## AllThumbs

Well, I got my standing riggiing back from the Dowsar Marine in Hamilton so I can put the mast up with the "new" rigging. Will do that soon to make sure it's all good before launch.

Another thing that needs to be done is bottom paint, which I am tackling today. One problem is the pads from the trailer. It's hard to get the paint between the pad and the boat. So I took the off. Here is what I had:










I supported the boat with some strategically cut lumber. The boards went between the rub rail and the ground. It doesn't take much to hold the boat up because all the wieght is on the keel. I am doing one side at a time. Here the boat is supported. One of the pads if off.










Here is the one side all done. Lot's of scraping and sanding and other nasty work in between. I am replacing the two little pads with one 2x6" 7 feet long to better support the boat and spread the load out a little. I had some "oilcanning" at the small pads. I will remove the other side supports once the supports on this side are replaced. First the paint needs to dry overnite.


----------



## AllThumbs




----------



## AllThumbs

Since it's almost time for launch I want to make a couple notes on the project:

1) I used regular clear lexan and tinted it with Automotive tint. I did this because I already had the clear lexan kicking around. *Don't do this*. The windows looked perfect at first but once the sun got on them bubbles started to appear. Someone told me that unlike glass lexan outgasses and therefore cannot be tinted using film. I think this is what is happening.

2) If you have been following from the start, you know that I used single part polyuerathane garage floor paint for the hull topsides and the deck. I added sand to the non-skid.

This causes a lot of controversy. Many people told me to use marine, 2 part linear poly paint. That or at "least" single poly marnine paint. *I agree that the very best results will be had by using the 2 part poly paints*. I did not want to go this route because my boat had been painted (with a brush) previously and did not want to try to remove ALL traces of the old paint. This left me with two options: Single part poly "marine" paint, or single part poly "garage floor" paint. Since I am not convinced that the two products are not the exact same paint, with one marked "marine" as a convinient way to re-market the paint at a 300% price increase, I went with the garage floor paint. I was and am fully aware of the risk that I could be wrong, but the only way to know is to try, so I did.

That said, it should be noted that with the amount of blood, sweat and tears required to remove the deck hardware, prep the surfaces, paint, resinstall the hardware, really the extra price for the "marine" paint really isn't worth the risk. But then I would never know, and I need to know, so garage floor paint it was.

I have heard a few horror stories on sailnet of the folks who have tried the "porch poly". "Lasted a week", "delicate", "flaking off" etc. I don't know what prep was done on those boats, so there is no way to know if it's the paint or the prep. As I have said, it's still too early, but so far I would not describe the paint as "deicate". I have dropped vice-grips on mine and screwdrivers. I have crawled all over the boat with muddy workboots on. when I took the boat home I strapped the boat to the trailer with a ratchet strap, and when undoing it, due to the tension of the strap the ratchet part sprung across the cockpit and bounced off the other side. So far I have not lost any paint at all, anywhere. I would describe the paint as really tough. Tougher than I thought it would be.

Of course, the boat has yet to be in the water. Once it's been sailed for a few months, my story might change. I will let you know after the summer.

In summary:

Don't tint lexan with auto tint

Don't paint your boat with single part garage floor poly YET. Let's see how it lasts a summer, and even a winter. I will let you know.


----------



## AllThumbs

Launch on Tuesday. Wish me luck.


----------



## Leither

Good luck and remember, the "end" of one project is only the beginning of another......

Also remember that there will be lots of us out there desperate to hear how you get on!

Stuart


----------



## SecondWindNC

Good luck! Hope it goes well.


----------



## AllThumbs

Launched! It floats! Could not motor or sail because the waterline is quite a bit higher (lower?) than expected so the prop was half out of the water. I guess it's because the boat is empty. In any case I need an extra long shaft or the outboard mount before I can go.

I am as happy as a clam to have her at the slip. Bilge stayed as dry as a bone for the 3 hours we hung around.

As promised, pics:














































Here she is at my own slip at the sailing club:


----------



## therapy23

AllThumbs said:


> Launched! It floats! Could not motor or sail because the waterline is quite a bit higher (lower?) than expected so the prop was half out of the water. I guess it's because the boat is empty. In any case I need an extra long shaft or the outboard mount before I can go.
> 
> I am as happy as a clam to have her at the slip. Bilge stayed as dry as a bone for the 3 hours we hung around.


Way to go!!!!!!!!

I guess you just have to get a fat chick to go with you if don't want to load a bunch of spares and all...........


----------



## Leither

Congratulations! The boat looked great on the trailer, now it looks positively happy to be in its proper element. I bet you are, too.

You will find that taking water and fuel onboard, and especially people, will make a significant difference to the waterline issue. However, it may be that you will need a touch of ballast?

Stuart


----------



## AllThumbs

I might have to add a deep cycle battery back there somewhere. If I gotta add ballast, it may as well serve a purpose!

Eric


----------



## AllThumbs

Just as a comparison, here is the first pic I took of it again. I wish I took more detailed "before" pics.


----------



## merc2dogs

AllThumbs said:


> I might have to add a deep cycle battery back there somewhere. If I gotta add ballast, it may as well serve a purpose!
> 
> Eric


 That's always been my approach, if I have to carry weight I want it to serve a purpose, I dislike having something 'useless' aboard.
Batteries are the best option in my opinion as their weight doesn't change with use.

With the creativity you've shown in earlier posts, you may be able to build a decent means of lowering the motor a bit.

The boat is looking great, I like what you've done with it.

ken.


----------



## donhaller

*I love Happy Endings*

What a beautiful little boat!! I love happy endings.
Keep us informed.


----------



## sisanba

Beuatiful boat! I'm curious--how much above and beyond the $750 have you put into the refurbishment?


----------



## AllThumbs

Probably spent another $1500.00 or so. Have not kept track.
250 on stern/bow rail
250 on outboard
400 on standing rigging
200 on running rigging
4-500 on misc.

Sailed her today:


----------



## smackdaddy

That's really cool Thumbs. Way to go, dude.


----------



## zz4gta

Very nice. Thanks for the pics.


----------



## GraemeInCanada

Excellent! Looks really good! You must be quite happy to have her on the water now and sailing around. I'm quite impressed, makes me want to paint my boat now...


----------



## AllThumbs

I am trying to make this boat easier to singlhand. Added a tiller tamer, tiller extension and cam cleats where there were clam cleats for jib sheets.

before and after


----------



## sailingdog

Nicely done...


----------



## Skipaway

Why Cam cleat vs Jam cleat?

(I ask because I'm considering replacing the horn cleats, after the jib sheet winch, with jam cleats.)


----------



## AllThumbs

I wanted to be able to pull the sheet with one hand, and have it lock so I can let go of the sheet for a second pull. I also wanted to be able to cleat the sheet from the other side of the boat. Basicaly easier to single hand.

Eric


----------



## Skipaway

Thanks, Eric. I'll have to think this one through a bit more.


----------



## SailingFlorida

Congratz thumbs, unfortunately my money situation has not been well so my boat is on hold at the moment==Ill hopefully start posting again when the money starts flowing again. Why haven't you named her yet? You do have the renaming ceremony right?!?

Boat re-naming ceremony - Nautical Know How


----------



## AllThumbs

I need to make the stencils for the name. I have been doing other things. She hasn't been named before as far as I know


----------



## Leither

Thumbs - I'm with SF on this one. We re-named our Morgan about three weeks ago, after almost 7 months of ownership. She did have a name, but it had never been written anywhere on the hull. We used the approved de-naming and re-naming ceremony (including the bubbly) and then put the name ("Selene") on the transom. I was amazed at the positive vibe that this created. The boat felt different in a really good way. And, of course, we covered our backs my making sure that the gods of the sea and the wind were duly appeased!  

Your jam-cleat idea is interesting. I might try that myself.

Stuart

PS "Selene" is the goddess of the moon, but it also reminds me of the Rod Stewart song. You know - "We are see- lene, we are see-lene etc".


----------



## AllThumbs

Well, I'm not a supertitious type. I'll take my chances.


----------



## Leither

AllThumbs said:


> Well, I'm not a supertitious type. I'll take my chances.


Hmmm. I'm not at all superstitious either, but I decided not to take the risk!


----------



## TSOJOURNER

Wow. This is my first post after lurking here for a few months. I just want to say what an excellent job you did restoring the boat. You have given me the inspiration do try to do the same! Hey, you don't want to come down to Ohio to help out a fellow sailor do you?


----------



## AllThumbs

Thanks! Sorry, too busy sailing!


----------



## AllThumbs

Some of our sailing adventures from last summer on this boat:


----------



## bobmcgov

Looks like your boat found a friend. Any chance of breeding them?  It's a maker I'd never heard of; what's your assessment of the DS20's sailing qualities?


----------



## AllThumbs

It sails allright. Neutral helm and points ok. I don't have anything to compare it to but it seems to keep up with other boats of similar size. I ordered a new main and genoa this winter so it should be even better next summer.


----------



## mobilchuckje

Wow, that was a great thread. Thanks.


----------



## BHere

I want to start my interaction with SailNet by thanking you for the great story about your learning and industry.

I bought a 21' foot trailer sailer for $400 and quickly found that costs are measured in "boats". For instance, the cost of buying the material to recover the cushions was one boat, or roughly $400.

The details of your success and perseverance encourage me to be thorough, make it beautiful, read lots, and keep at it.


----------



## drobarge

*???*

i'm sure this is in this thread somewhere but i don't want to read through again. I see the maple leaf flying on your boat thumbs. where are you at? i sail lk superior.


----------



## AllThumbs

I am in Southwestern Ontario, close to London.


----------



## souljour2000

attn: ALL thumbs...This is a thread for the ages..a real classic...a creme de la creme..paint-by-numbers for us DIY "fix-up-an-old-GRP sea-cow" guys....thanks for posting your story...have fun out there with that boat..I got a Hunter 20 about a year and a half ago..btw..it's a nice size sailboat to play around with...all the boat I can handle and I got her cheap...have fun!


----------



## Waltthesalt

Get from hardware stores where they can provise the quality i.e. stainless steel fastners. Here's what I also use: Marie consgnment stores. They have used parts at good prices. Look for boat equipment swap meets, here in Seattle the local sailing rag sponsors them. West Marine/Boat US have two surplus stores one in Oakland and the other I think in Miami. Carry a list of what you need and measurements so that you can leap on an opportunity if it pops up.


----------



## sailingdog

Be aware that many hardware stores only carry the cheaper, less rust resistant stainless steel, rather than marine grade 304/316 stainless steel nuts and bolts. An easy way to determine if the stuff is marine-grade stainless steel is to carry a magnet. *Marine grade austenitic stainless steels are NON-MAGNETIC. *


----------



## Skipper Jer

Just don't carry that magnet next to your credit cards or you won't be able to purchase that bargain.


----------



## sailingdog

Captainmeme said:


> Just don't carry that magnet next to your credit cards or you won't be able to purchase that bargain.


sure you will, the clerk will just have to work a bit harder...


----------



## LandLocked66c

Great thread for sure! I'm hoping mine ends up this way as well!!!


----------



## AllThumbs

Lots done since last year. Last winter, I made a new tiller. First I laminated a bunch of 1/8" plywood at the right swoop (shape):
















Once dry I cut out a tiller shape:
















Then sanded it to final shape:








Lots of varnish:


----------



## johnnyandjebus

I can't believe I just stumbled on this thread for the first time. 50 pages, where have I been? Beautiful job. I'm going to grab a beer and start at the beginning.

John


----------



## AllThumbs

I also bought new sails from FX Sails:

































Stay tuned more to come...


----------



## AllThumbs

The first winter I tried to make the outside look decent. Last winter was the inside. Here is what I started with. The PO had tabbed in a bunch of shelves, plus some plywood chunks into the glass liner. Very poorly I might add. That, plus all the plywood below was rotten:


----------



## AllThumbs

I scraped and sanded for days after ripping out all the plywood bulkheads. the polyester resin from the tabbing was a real *****:


----------



## AllThumbs

After painting it came out pretty good:








I replaced the compression post with 2 posts and a bridge. I also made new cushions:


----------



## AllThumbs

I made some cockpit cushions while I was at it:


----------



## AllThumbs

Replacing the bulkheads in the bilge and under the cockpit was fun:
























Getting cleaned up a little:
















Good times:


----------



## AllThumbs

Eventually it started to look pretty good. It took a lot of grinding to remove all the old tabbing.


----------



## AllThumbs

I cut some new bulkheads from 1/4" sheet fiberglass and tabbed them in.


----------



## AllThumbs

We have really been enjoying the boat this summer. Bored yet?


----------



## AllThumbs

A few more because I can't resist:


----------



## AllThumbs

We bought this dinghy at the end of last summer for $200.00


----------



## AllThumbs

Here she is under tow:
YouTube - ‪100_1388.MOV‬‎


----------



## southshoreS24

very impressed and inspired!


----------



## arf145

Never bored by your posts, AllThumbs!


----------



## therapy23

arf145 said:


> Never bored by your posts, AllThumbs!


Nor am I.


----------



## carl762

You did a beautiful job. Nice dinghy too. Very nice.


----------



## saillover

I also have purchased a project boat and we have had it for 2 years and haven't done much with it at all. My husband lost interest in it so I don't know
how to do the work myself. I hope to do something with it to get it in the water and learn to sail....


----------



## AllThumbs

saillover said:


> I also have purchased a project boat and we have had it for 2 years and haven't done much with it at all. My husband lost interest in it so I don't know
> how to do the work myself. I hope to do something with it to get it in the water and learn to sail....


That's too bad. Maybe you need to sell it and get one that's ready to go.


----------



## saillover

Yes, you may be right. I have put the boat for sale on a popular site here
in Maine. But, no one has bought it yet. I think because it needs work. We 
probably paid too much for it not knowing what needed to be done to it. I
just love the look of it....


----------



## billinmn

Great thread .I was wondering how your top deck paint is holding up? I have an old Watkins w23 . This boat is in rough shape cosmetically and not to bad of shape otherwise.This boat was given to me and I knew nothing about sailing except that I wanted to learn.Well now I'm going to paint this next spring (I live in Monticello mn,USA ) and I thought you boat looks great.Did you have to fill anything? I have looked into some of the spray in bed liners for the cabin but hadn't given much thought about the top deck.Is your paint working for you/ Thanks for your time Bill


----------



## AllThumbs

The paint is really good. Two seasons so far and it's still on there tight. In fact I took a paint scraper to the non skid in the cockpit because I didn't like the sand on my but and I couldn't scrape the paint off no matter how hard I scraped (Originally I did a coat of paint, then sand out of a salt shaker on the wet paint, then another coat) . The sand did come off but the paint ALL stayed. After the sand came off I did add another coat of beige to even it out. 

I used the same paint on the top sides and it's as tough as nails too.

The biggest issue is it's losing some of the gloss and you can see the brush strokes. If I did it again I might spray it on, and I wouldn't add any sand to the non skid.

Eric


----------



## AllThumbs

I washed her today in preparation for a 8 day cruise, leaving tomorrow. As you can see the paint is pretty good. I have soaped it, scrubbed it with a brush and even pressure washed it. It's stuck on there. Even to waterline was painted with the garage floor poly and it's not even close to coming off.

Eric


----------



## saillover

Hey Allthumbs, I hope that your cruise is going great. I am thinking about doing what you did to your boat. I didn't get such a great price on my WD
Schock 26 ft. It cost $2900 and it has a broken rudder and a problem with
the keel. I know you suggested that I sell it but I have been trying to for over a year and no luck...so, I thought if it was in working condition someone
may buy it or at least I can use it. I don't know how to sail yet but want to learn. Did you know about sailing before starting your project. I did read most
of your posts and you know a lot about different things and that helps.
Thanks for reading


----------



## saillover

Does anyone out there have a Schock? They seem to be pretty rare
even though they are still making them I believe.


----------



## Maverick1958

Being in the same boat as you (no pun intended) here are a few thoughts on the subject. My initial time estimate for getting my $800 Helsen 22 ready for the water was 30 to 45 days. I am now approaching 11 months and still not there yet. My initial budget was $200 - $500 it is now around $2,000 and sill not there yet. All I was going to do was put 2 new tires on the trailer and buy a used jib. As of now I have built a new trailer from scratch (love it). I have purchaced a used British Seagull which I had to rebuild (love it). I have stripped off all the old teak and refinished what was salvagable and replaced what wasn't, looks like new (love it). I have replaced the old rub rail with better than new (love it). Cleaned and rebeded the toe rail, repaired EVERY STINKING scratch and ding in the hull, deck, and cabin. Didn't love it made the boat look like poka-a-dots. Stripped all the old wiring out and replaced it. Refurbished the swing keel winch and replaced the wire and fittings. Replaced thru hull's with bronze fittings. made new companion way doors, new table, recovered all cushions, replaced life lines, pulpit, all standing rigging, running rigging, added a bilge pump, vhf. Almost forgot replaced the port lights and seals (holy crap what a job). Painted the hull and deck and put fancy rope work everywhere. All that is left is the bottom job which I will have done and an additional $1200 for new sails. Sometimes I think it would have been better to build a boat from scratch. On the other hand she is turning out to be a very pretty lady. Yes you can get a boat do the minimum necessary to sail her and have a good time. As for myself it started that way then something inside made me go the distance and restore the old gal to her former beauty. You might call it a labor of love (insanity fits too). No doubt some will say will say why did he put that much work in such a small boat but there will be a few who will say now there's a man who loves sailing and his boat, (Damn she's pretty)


----------



## saillover

Wow, that sounds like a lot of work and money but I bet it's worth it if
you are able to sail her now. I want that someday. I know it will take a 
long time to get the schock in good shape. Especially since I don't know
a lot about sailboats. I will deffinately need help. But, I want to do it and reading the posts on this site has motivated me to try it. What can it hurt?


----------



## AllThumbs

YouTube - 100_1569.MOV


----------



## skylerdorn

that is a gorgous boat. the best of luck to you


----------



## saillover

I have a question that I am not sure can be answered without looking at my boat, but it keeps getting water inside the cabin. There is a spot in the cockpit that someone cut a square out and put back together. I think it was 
to fix the rudder. I wonder if that is where the water is coming in from. It can be closed right up tight and the water still gets in. I am not sure how to post a picture on here.


----------



## AllThumbs

There are many places water can get in. Chain plates or leaky cabin ports to name just two. Get in the boat with a flash light next time it rains and look around. Water that gets in from the cockpit area tends to get into the bilge and not the cabin but I am not familiar with your boat.

Eric


----------



## saillover

Thanks Eric, I will try the flashlight in the rain. Hopefully it comes in somewhere that I can see it. My boat is a Schock of some sort. I am
not sure what model. It's 26 feet long with a swing keel.


----------



## kpgraci

sailingdog said:


> Be careful about using "hardware" store parts on a boat, since many are not suitable for a marine environment and can pose a serious danger if used in one. If you're on freshwater, you're in less danger using hardware store parts, but not completely clear of it IMHO.


This is a good point and worth reinforcing. When faced with sticker shock at the boat supply store it's tempting to think you can get the same thing at a fraction of the price at the local hardware store. Problem is, you can't look at a piece of metal and tell how strong it is. Hefty looking metal shackles made with inferior steel or casting methods (china?) can break under surprisingly light loads. Quality costs more, and boats tend to have specialized needs warranting specialized hardware.

That's not to say that all boat parts are fairly priced - it absolutely pays to shop around - my son and I have a running joke, trying to guess - how much would you pay for 'X' - and the rational always is...well' its for a boat so we start at $80.00 and work up from there.

The trick is to prioritize the must have's from the want to have's and don't skimp on quality or safety - you won't be sorry.


----------



## AllThumbs

This one?

SANTANA 26 Sailboat details on sailboatdata.com


----------



## saillover

Wow, I bet that is it. The guy who sold it to us didn't say it was a Santana
but I think that is probably it. It is a '72 and the cabin is laid out that way.
Thank you for taking the time to find that. I couldn't find out much about 
the boat. Now I have a model to help with fixing some of the things that are wrong with it. Thank you again, Cassy


----------



## trailblazer1229

Allthumbs, I am guessing that garage poly worked ok for you. Reccommended??


----------



## AllThumbs

It works yes. For all the effort put into prep, marine paint may be a better choice, but I am happy with the durability of the paint I used.

Eric


----------



## AllThumbs

saillover said:


> Wow, I bet that is it. The guy who sold it to us didn't say it was a Santana
> but I think that is probably it. It is a '72 and the cabin is laid out that way.
> Thank you for taking the time to find that. I couldn't find out much about
> the boat. Now I have a model to help with fixing some of the things that are wrong with it. Thank you again, Cassy


That Santana I showed you is not a swing keel. Perhaps it came in both configurations. Is yours on a trailer?


----------



## saillover

The picture of the keel on that Santana looks like it could be a different way
because the way it's drawn. Mine is on a trailer and there is a winch in the cabin floor and it is all pulled apart. I think it quit working and the PO tried 
(not too hard) to fix it. We will probably have to get it to a boat yard or buy
some stands to get it off the trailer and see what is wrong with the keel. I 
know that it is very heavy and it could be dangerous, too.


----------



## saillover

I want to check and see if my pictures downloaded. I tried to attach some.


----------



## saillover

Yeah they did go through. In the first on you can sort of see the keel trunk and the winch mess. The second pic shows the square that was cut in the cockpit where the soft spot is. It gives if you step on it. The tiller is missing but the pipe (?) that holds the rudder to the tiller is broken.


----------



## W5ESV

Hello Ken, I'm a newbie also and know very little about sailing. On some weekends I jump down from central MS to North Shore to work on a sailboat just bought.The boat is a 1978 Creekmore 34 and I've been able to find some history.
Hull serial numbers are sometimes on plate inside cabin, but not on my boat. I found this information on paperwork that came with boat. The engine also has a serial number that can possible be run by manufacturer with tidbits of information. Also found more info on internet from article in Sail Magazine with pictures where original owner with Lee Creekmore was custom laying hull.


----------



## AllThumbs

Well, I took my boat to a buddies house who has a boat hoist so we could inspect the keel and it's related hardware. I had images of the keel falling off somewhere on Georgian Bay, so an inspection was warranted.

Here is the boat on the hoist



























The keel deployed. 


















Here is a view of her "privates" Always hidden from view under normal circumstances. I feel like a bit of a pervert just looking.









Cable disconnected from winch so we could lower if further









1/16" SS cable. It has a crimp fitting holding things together. It looked in good shape actually









Front pivot pin cover off and pin removed









Not bad for almost 40 years of wear. It's a very hard foam core and lead encapsulated in glass. It weighs about 100 lbs. Somehow, it has stayed in one piece. Some of these boats have been known to have swollen keels that don't come out of the slot anymore. Swollen by being water logged and frozen/split open I guess.









This doesn't look that great, but no time to fix, and it's lasted this long so it's going back in this way. I am pretty sure it looked like this when new.









Clean up









New cable 1/8" instead of the original 1/16".



























I think the old cable had broken at the winch at one point, and then shortened and reattached to the winch. The new cable allows the keel to drop another 4 inches or so.









Now I can sail with peace of mind. I had visions of frayed cables and worn keel pin/holes.

Eric


----------



## CalebD

It is nice to have access to a private lift. That saved you a boat buck or two right there.
I'd call that a swing keel or a center board as a keel is usually thought of as the lowest point of the hull that is naturally fixed to the hull. Some are cantilevered as well.
I'd also think about grinding out and re-sealing the top of your board above the pivot hole where it shows damage. You are lucky your swing keel/center board has not swelled as this damaged area clearly is below the water line and would allow water to intrude into the core. 
Replacing the wire rope pendant was an important job to do though. The extra 4" of deployed center board may be useful, or it may not. Sometimes having the board only partially deployed results in faster sailing but it depends on the boat and point of sail. You are pretty clever so you will figure it out.


----------



## saillover

My husbands boss has a hoist kind of like this and we were thinking we could
use it to check our swing keel and maybe fix whatever is wrong with it. Now 
that you posted these pictures of yours it will make it a bit easier to get it 
done. It has been a busy summer (painting our house) now cooler weather
is here and not easy to work on a boat outside. Maybe we'll have some more
nice warm days before the snow flies!!  Thanks again for the pics and info.. It's always appreciated and interesting.


----------



## AllThumbs

CalebD said:


> I'd also think about grinding out and re-sealing the top of your board above the pivot hole where it shows damage. You are lucky your swing keel/center board has not swelled as this damaged area clearly is below the water line and would allow water to intrude into the core.


I hear you. The thing has lasted 38 years tho. What ever water that gets in there obviously drains/drys out before winter has a chance to do any damage. I would worry about "fixing" it such that any opening is large enough to allow water in, but too small to allow it to come out or dry out. The core is a very hard foam, almost like bondo hard. If you look at the pic, you can see some delamination at the pivot hole. To seal it all perfectly may not be possible. There is a saying in the electrical trade that goes: "If you want to make something water proof, drill a drain hole in the bottom". Attempting a "fix" could spell disaster in this case. I'll try my luck as is.

Eric


----------



## CalebD

AllThumbs said:


> The thing has lasted 38 years tho.
> ... There is a saying in the electrical trade that goes: "If you want to make something water proof, drill a drain hole in the bottom".
> Attempting a "fix" could spell disaster in this case. I'll try my luck as is.
> 
> Eric


Since it hasn't been leaking or swelling on you, you lose nothing by doing nothing about it. Trying to 'fix' it and causing another problem would be a lot worse then doing nothing.
I like your electrical trades saying although I don't think it applies to boat hulls!


----------



## AllThumbs

Rebuilding the mast step


----------



## AllThumbs

Taking the time to fix another wet spot at the same time


----------



## oldgtman

Hey there All Thumbs.

I just finished reading the whole thread. You have really out in an extraordinary effort. I have recently bought a DS 20 sail# 72. Your thread has really inspired me, and just in time for weather to start cooperating with a project.

I will be trailer it back and forth to the Bay of Quinte while repairing/restoring/sailing her the summer.

BTW, where did you get the 1/4 " sheets of fiberglass?

Again great work and documentation.


----------



## AllThumbs

I guess I should add some pictures of the results:

Eric


----------



## tommays

Very Nice


----------



## Ajax_MD

Fantastic job, but what the hell is that open cavity in the bow? Usually, there's a solid deck there, that is over the V-berth.


----------



## LandLocked66c

Yep, well done sir!


----------



## AllThumbs

BubbleheadMd said:


> Fantastic job, but what the hell is that open cavity in the bow? Usually, there's a solid deck there, that is over the V-berth.


Anchor Locker. Shown with the lid off above, lid on below.


----------



## CalebD

As usual, nice work on the mast step Eric.


----------



## Ritchard

I am late to the party, but very good thread, thank you.


----------



## AllThumbs

In case any of you are wondering about that 2 cylinder engine I was building. I did get it running eventually.

Inline twin - YouTube


----------



## dklein90

inspiring thread, Maybe I'll have to start one on my project boat, although compared to this Im unworthy. Keep up the awsome work.


----------



## Green with envy

So I too have undertaken a project boat. I bought a 1976 30' Lancer for $2800. The interior has been completely redone by the PO. They had an eclectic style and took a few shortcuts and did not go all out but I find the cabin to be very comfortable and accomodating. I don't have any pics to post as of now but here are the things which I need to do to get her sailing again.

1: The four-stroke 9.9hp outboard starts on a dime and sounds great but no cooling water coming out of the pee hole.

2: Haul out and bottom paint

3: Repair the Jib, replace a few hanks on the mainsail.

4: New standing rigging and running rigging

5: Elbow grease, elbow grease, and more elbow grease!

6: Port lights are foggy. I like the one peice smoked idea as I have 3 on each side and that seems like a more affordable and easier solution than replacing or repairing each one.

7: Fix or replace one hatch which leaks.

Anyways, I'll post some pics soon, I really appreciate everyones participation on this site. It has inspired me to take on a project which should allow me to be sailing within a couple of months. The best thing is that I am using this boat as my office (answering phone and booking jobs for my contracting business) as I complete the work so I am writing off the slip fees, utilities and repairs!


----------



## therapy23

Green with envy said:


> So I too have undertaken a project boat. I bought a 1976 30' Lancer for $2800.
> 1: The four-stroke 9.9hp outboard starts on a dime and sounds great but no cooling water coming out of the pee hole.


Best of luck with that.

Sounds great.

Maybe the pee hole only has a dirt dobber nest or spider web in it. Seen that before.


----------



## Green with envy

Update on the outboard repair:

I took it to a guy who specializes in outboards. I asked him if he could show me how to replace the water pump so I could do it on my own next time around. He was more than happy to show me, I think he was thrilled to have some company! The bottom part of the outboard did not want to come off very easily. When we did get it out we found that the impeller was in okay shape but the plastic housing covering it was very blistered from heat. The problem was inside the engine, where he believed that there was blockage. He is going to rebuild it for me for $700.00. Is that a good price? This includes the parts (head gasket, etc). I had already tried scraping out the pee hole way before bring him the outboard. Thanks for the tip though!


----------



## rtawood

Hi AllThumbs,

I have been reading your renovation posts with interest as I have just bought a DS22. I don't think mine needs too much doing to it, I hope! Def needs some varnishing, a few minor repairs to the gelcoat etc. One thing I don't know about is the swing keel/centre board as I bought the boat on the trailer and won't launch until next Spring. I'm hoping that I can get it down when I launch and that with a bit of lubrication (somewhere?) that it will go back up again now and then. Anyway, I was wondering if you had any advice in this department, or any pictures maybe. I'm guessing the DS20 is very similar to the DS22? I tried searching on SN for this topic without much success.

Thanks

Richard


----------



## rtawood

I should have read your most recent posts first, as I now see you have dropped the centre board and supplied pictures as well! doh


----------



## rtawood

*Swing keel pivot question*

Having now read your excellent posts and viewed your excellent pics of dropping the centre-board, I have a few questions. How did you get the cover off the pivot pin and how did you get the pivot pin out? Was it easy? Looking at my DS22 on the trailer, I can't even see where the pivot pin is. So I'm guessing its buried beneath a lot of paint!

Looking down into the centre-board casing it seems that my centre-board is hoisted up and down with a nylon strap. Not sure if that is bad thing or not. There is no winch to turn either, just a rope that you pull through a cam cleat.

I probably should overhaul the lot.

Richard


----------



## AllThumbs

rta,

The DS22 is a different animal altogether. Different designer. You should join the DS20/22 yahoo group: DS20-22-DillerSchwill20-22 : DS20&22 DillerSchwill20&22


----------



## AllThumbs

I am working on a new rudder. Here I am vacuum bagging a 1" ply lamination carved into an airfoil shape. 3 layers of 9 oz glass on each side.

Then, out of the bag it's being faired with epoxy mixed with fairing filler.


----------



## AllThumbs

The upper section is made from 1/4" fiberglass sheet. Here I am gluing additional strips as stiffeners.


----------



## AllThumbs

1 1/8" spacers hold the two halves apart. I am building a detent system which will detent the rudder in place when down but allow it to swing up in the event of a grounding.


----------



## AllThumbs

Trial fit on the boat, plus a picture of the original setup.


----------



## tschmidty

Looks really nice and I love the detent system. I know it is a smallish boat but do you think the fiberglass sheet will be strong enough? I am guessing so but I'd probably feel better with aluminum plate, which is what I did when I built a rudder head for my Newport 16.


----------



## AllThumbs

The glass sheets are incredibly strong but they do flex. Once it's all bolted together I will have to see how rigid it feels. I am a little concerned. We will see.


----------



## Smier

This is still one of my favorite threads! Glad to see you're still enjoying this boat. It's an inspiring thread, thanks for sharing.


----------



## AllThumbs

Thanks!

After School was featured in Small Craft Advisor Magazine this issue.


----------



## rbyham

This thread makes me wish I had done similar when I bought and started to get my new to me boat ready to sail again back in January (2013). My fixes, updates, and early sailing experience in this my freshman year are scattered throughout the site. But just like this thread I am much in the debt of the fine folks here who continue to walk me towards becoming a sailor.


----------



## AllThumbs

Looks better painted the right colour


----------



## nighthawk

Thumbs-
Thanks so much for taking us along on your journey. I have read your post from beginning to end and am totally impressed with what you have accomplished. Just acquired a Laguna 22 and beginning to do the work to get her back in the water. I only hope my project turns out as well as yours. Maybe I'll start a thread to show my progress as well.


----------



## AllThumbs

I added the tiller and completed the pull-pull setup to raise and lower the rudder so this assembly is now complete and ready for spring. Only 5 months to go!


----------

