# Are ALL Sellers LYING MORONIC DOUCHBAGS??



## CheckedOutRob (Nov 3, 2012)

I've been looking for a year now for a cruising yacht 40-45 feet. My budget is $170. That money I thought would find me with a boat that needs some items fixed or one big item and a few small ones. 

Am I not being realistic? Am I naive in thinking that money would get me an ocean worthy boat not at all bristol condition but mostly good to go with a few months of work?
So far I've walked a **** ton of boats and they are all just a wreck. Buyers are not representing themselves. I understand where a buyer wants to get you on the boat but I just get pissed off by them wasting my time. I find the items listed as new are either missing or many years old. And, does "teak in great condition" mean I'm supposed to ignore the miles of hardened peeled up caulking in-between all that teak???? 

My favorite new euphemism is "deferred maintenance". It is so glaringly obvious when someone has not done squat to their boat for at least the last five years. Not even hose it off. Sure your engine has less than 1,000 hours but you have not changed your oil in 4 years and the head pump-out pump has failed and those tanks are full and sitting there for years!!! I just ran across this today. Oh, and your transmission is completely devoid of any liquid product resembling lubricant!

I am in Seattle now this being my second trip here in one month flying up from Los Angeles area. What a waste of time and money.

Just looked at a 44' boat that was represented as "recent extensive refit". I paid for the haul and pressure wash ($475) and inspection ($800) plus engine survey ($275). ******* keel to hull join has delaminations, crack in rudder fin, and here's the best one of all THE HULL IS DISTORTED BECAUSE THE MAST HAS SHOVED THE BILGES DOWN AWAY FROM THE BULKHEAD. The radar and chart plotter are so old they are not worth dealing with. It has the wrong prop (18 instead of 16) and it can't make full rpm's and on and on. 

And I'm not looking at silly boats (HunterBenLinas). My short list is Passport 40, Nordic 44, Passport 42/Slocum 43 and the likes and about any Perry boat worthy of crossing oceans.

LOOK. IF YOU ARE A SELLER DON'T FREEKING LYE TO MY FACE -I'M GONNA FIND THIS STUFF OUT ANYWAY. STOP BEING A DOUCHBAG.

Is it supposed to be this difficult? What am I doing wrong? Really dismayed with the whole process so far.


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## Alive3and3Well (Aug 16, 2010)

Maybe it's time to find a "good" broker that will cull through the bad boats and present good boats to earn a fair commission.


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

I agree with Alive. Find someone whose time is worth less than yours and pay them to do the initial legwork for you. If that's a broker, then that's fine. It could also be a surveyor. The guy who surveyed my boat offered a "sanity check" survey option. For $100-$200 (depending on the size of the boat) he would spend an hour or so aboard, taking pictures and looking for the glaringly obvious stuff (like your mast/bilge issue). If you were happy with the results, he would credit half of the cost toward the full survey of the boat. You'll spend more than $100-200 just on the plane ticket.

Granted, it may not have helped you much in this case (can't really see a keel/hull delamination from in the water), but still worth considering.


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

Find a broker. Many people ask for what they still owe on a boat, not for what it's worth.


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## Tim R. (Mar 23, 2003)

The problem(for buyers) is that the good boats go fast. It is a matter of timing that is hurting you. Set a tickler in YW to email you when one of your preferred boats first gets listed and be the first to go see it. You also want to check with the broker to make sure it is in fact new to YW instead of being re-listed by a new broker.

This is how we got our Ericson 35 for well below market value and sold it for well above market value.

Another good way to find a boat is to frequent the users forums of the boats you like.

This is how we found our current boat. I had actually started corresponding with the owner well before he decided to sell. We ended up buying the boat from them while they were actively cruising and on their way to SC to put it on the market.

Not all sellers are DBs. I have been a seller of many boats and always represented my boats accurately with honest descriptions including a list of items that need to be addresses and lots of high resolution detailed photos. Guess that is why I never used a broker to sell my boats.

The problem is when a new boat comes into the picture before the old boat gets sold, the old boat gets neglected. The other problem is that there are a lot of ignorant owners out there that think a boat will stay pristine while on the hard or not actively being used. A piece of equipment may be regarded as "new" because it was installed just before the boat went up for sale 3 years ago. Sure, it is in "new condition" but it is not current, especially for electronics.

Good luck and take a breather. We had actually stopped looking for a new boat when our Ericson appeared on YW.


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

all brokers are not honest--i have found it is a rare one who is. 
i surveyed last year a vagabond 47 in puerto vallarta for someone who was looking for one to cruise.
the BROKER had told me this boat is cruise ready, it has excellent..yada yada yada quack quack..... when i SAW the boat i saw a 150,000 asking price worthy of 40,000 purchase price---rotted teak, sanded away teak, frozen engine, genset frozen, no electronics, dry rot under the hatches which of course are not leaking, but totally watertight--NOT...
capper was the teak helm seat i lifted, and it cracked into two parts in my hand....wow...well maintained.....
puleeze do not tell me how bludi honest are brokers.....rodlmao.
i have to laugh on DECK as i havent a FLOOR


this is only one of many....

but i know a beautiful and cruise ready ct 54 in san diego at yachtfinder/windseekers for sale by broker now--the owner and his wife were cruising mexico, last thanksgiving he blew an aneurysm and died.... but the boat is gorgeous....i know her--she is a perry design and ab-fab....my friend doesnt want to sell, but she cannot handle boat by self, so is for sale. if i had the dough--i saw her electronix--she is packed with goodies and a ssb, everything. he cruised it for 26 yrs. if you are interested, ask for ron at yachtfinders and tell him his crazed lady friend from shelter island is in barra de navidad and sent you to him. he seems least dishonest of any broker i have met, including the one i chose to try to sell my ericson the day before the market tanked (different brokerage).

there are good boats out there, but do not trust a surveyor nor a broker n0r the owner for truth in advertising. there WILL be proms not found nor discussed in every boat , even brand new off the ass-embly line production ones...


oh yes, and as i am still a seller, yes, ALL sellers are liars... except me...rodlmao


ye speelt maroon wrongly


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Hope you have at typo going on, because if you think you are going to get a decent boat for $170...........LOL......or is that $170K? for that kind of money, you could get a brand new 30-34' boat!! depending upon what you are trying to do and go etc.

Marty


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

The honest answer is that *one mans Princess is another mans pig*...

I have owners who think their boat is in top condition and nearly perfect and you'd have to pay me to take the boat off their hands. I also have owners who's boats are a perfect 10 and they are still never satisfied that it is good enough...


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

I heard a saying a long time ago, "Follow the money", and every time I do I get a good understanding of how the money is doing the motivating.

If you are a buyer, there are countless people looking to get a piece of the money you intend to spend. The broker wants to maximize his or her commission. The seller wants to make a killing selling his or her boat. It's predator vs. prey. In the wild, the prey that thrives is the one always on the lookout for predators.

We've begun our search locally. No real financial hit driving a couple of hours to look at a boat. Our first look-see was a total dud. Even the one the broker and dock walkers talked up was a disappointment. We had dinner and drinks afterwards by the water and all was good again.

We have another look-see on Thursday that will be a 4 hour round trip. We'll take in other things the area has to offer while there so it won't be a total waste of out time if the boat isn't right.

We're planning a trip out east. It will be a vacation, the chance to see friends and take in what the area has to offer. Along the way we plan to check out as many different types of boats as we can. Call it mind games, cuz the real reason we're heading out east is to see boats, but we're making it into a vacation. And we will enjoy the vacation, regardless of what the boats look like. 

We have a seller's broker. He seems genuine. But he's on strict commission. Expecting anything other than him wanting a quick and top price sale would be kidding ourselves. In the end, if you aren't constantly looking out for yourself, you will get eaten.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Rob your angry (rightfully so) for the cost of a survey you didn't need. Knowledge of the boat your going to see is a big help. I stayed a couple of days in the area (deal md) when I was checking out my boat. We spent hours on it. Then when I felt it was the boat I wanted I had the survey done.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Rob,

I agree with Tim R. about "timing".
I disagree about going through brokers.

You have clearly explained what you're looking for, and your expectations seem realistic. You have clearly demonstrated that you understand sailing vessels, what the critical items are, where and what you should be looking at.
A broker is an unnecessary expense when you have the level of knowledge that you appear to have.

The only advice I can offer you, is keep doing what you're doing. Put feelers out everywhere, look at every available resource for boat sales. Have patience, the right girl will come along.

I sympathize with your frustration.


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## rugosa (Aug 30, 2011)

Looks like there is plenty of room in the used boat market for a PROFESSIONAL STAGER - Sellers are disillusioned about what they have, value it represents, competition, and the real costs of getting a boat in the right condition to show to a large and aggresive buyer pool. Unfortunately many boaters are too frugal (cheap?) to have someone stage or regularly detail their boats, believing that a seasonal washdown will suffice.

The truths in marketing (from my real estate bag of 'tricks', quoting Dirk Zeller)-

Sales are governed by the law of supply and demand. This rule is absolute and without exception. The appreciation of a market, the expectations of buyers and sellers, and the velocity of market sales are all dictated by the supply of -- and the demand for -- real estate for sale. 

Sales are governed by the law of cause and effect. Put differently, positive situations cause positive outcomes, and vice versa. For example, a vibrant economic growth leads to a vibrant real estate market and strong appreciation of homes, while loss of jobs and a languishing economy produce exactly the opposite effect. 

History will repeat itself. In any marketplace, there are cycles. Periods of rapid appreciation are followed by stagnant periods where values stabilize or even decrease. By acquiring marketplace knowledge, you can foresee trends.

This definitely applies to boats, and the huge downside with boats is depreciation caused by neglect, environment and substandard work by ill informed owners and untrained yard staff. Deep down we all must know this, and at some point deal with it.


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## BarryL (Aug 21, 2003)

Hey,

A few more or less random thoughts:

-I keep hearing that it's a buyer's market, that if you don't like the boat you're currently looking at, then just walk away because another boat is right around the corner, that boat's are going for penny's on the dollar, etc.
-But when you hear from someone who is actually looking to buy a boat, they can't seem to find a decent one.

-When I was looking to purchase an inexpensive, production type 35ish racer / cruiser (could it really be 6 years ago?) I saw a bunch of duds from bunch of dud brokers. Then I got a little smarter. I started asking the hard questions like what does the engine compartment look like, and to please send me pictures, etc. I was honest with the broker that I was REALLY going to buy a boat, but not a POS. I asked him to not waste my time and his time by showing me a POS but talking it up like it was great. Some brokers were good at using code words, like 'just needs a good cleaning', or 'sails need updating' (if the sails need updating you can be sure that lots of other things need work too.

-Most brokers did give me the information I needed and that saved me hours of driving.

-The boat I did purchase was far from perfect, but was good enough from condition, price, performance ,etc, to make me happy.

Good luck,
Barry


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Rug-

You'd think that there would be a real market for "stagers", but I think that a lot of these people would never shell out the money for the service.

If these people don't love their vessels enough to maintain them, and let them decay to a decrepit condition, what makes you think that they would suddenly pay someone to clean them up to a saleable condition?

People who maintain their boats well, will simply clean and primp their own boats before putting them up for sale, because they are used to keeping them in a presentable fashion in the first place.

I mean, it makes sense on the surface, but I think it would be a non-starter.


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## Tim R. (Mar 23, 2003)

Most boats are beyond staging and I would find it rather insulting to find some nice throw pillows and a fresh cleaning on a boat with a seized engine or delaminated hull or 20 year old rigging(unless it was previously fully disclosed and priced accordingly). This is otherwise known as lipstick on a pig.

Staging is a way to de-personalize something to make it more acceptable to a new possible owner. On a boat this means removing all the unnecessary clutter, items that do not go with the sale, do a good cleaning and give the boat a feel that a new owner could imagine himself/herself fitting in. 

Staging will not hide deferred maintenance or missing/broken items to a savvy buyer.


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## rugosa (Aug 30, 2011)

I totally get that Tim & Bubble - what is lacking all too often is the pride of ownership reflected in cosmetic, structural, mechanical & an 'all systems are go' frame of mind. How many boat owners do you know that have, and are committed to use, a daily, weekly, monthly, quarterly, semi-annual . . . schedule and dedicated service log for their boat? While staging on the surface is cosmetic, it should really be about total preparation for sale (and safe use). If the seller can't see the truth about their boat, perhaps a pre-survey and mechanical evaluation will uncover all the problems that will prevent a sale, and give a serious seller the opportunity to correct them. Provided they are willing to pay, and realize they can't add that expense on to the price.


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

_Usually_, the first thing the owner of a new boat does is bring her up to their standards. For a while, pride of ownership keeps the owner motivated to maintain her in the best condition they can afford.

_Usually_, when an owner decides to sell, the boat is no longer in that same condition they brought it to because they have tired of her.

There are some owners who have been hit by the unexpected, loss of job, loss of loved one, etc. There's also relocation. These owners have to sell. So these boats have the best chance of being in good condition.

If the owner isn't moving up to a bigger boat, and they don't fall into the above category, chances are the boat's condition isn't up to par with how the owner kept it when they first owned it.


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## ctl411 (Feb 15, 2009)

JulieMor said:


> We're planning a trip out east. It will be a vacation, the chance to see friends and take in what the area has to offer. Along the way we plan to check out as many different types of boats as we can. Call it mind games, cuz the real reason we're heading out east is to see boats, but we're making it into a vacation. And we will enjoy the vacation, regardless of what the boats look like.
> .


This is what we did on our Florida trip. The boats we went to see were in bad shape for the money asked. We put a offer on one then took the kids snorkeling/ site seeing. Had a great time, but owner couldn't understand our offer. Even after his broker told him the condition of the boat. They ended up pulling it off the market so a friend could check it out. We moved on and our new boat should be to the yard (where I'm waiting) in a hour or so. By making a vacation out of helps to not go crazy spending money on trips to see boats.


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## Skipper Jer (Aug 26, 2008)

I understand where the OP is coming from. We went to a broker/marina used boat show. Boarded one boat and almost lost our lunch due to head smell.

This thread may be of some use to you OP.
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-review-purchase-forum/38505-local-boat-buying-assistance.html


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## CheckedOutRob (Nov 3, 2012)

Group9 said:


> Find a broker. Many people ask for what they still owe on a boat, not for what it's worth.


Well -of course. I've a (recommended by our favorite naval architect) buyers broker representing me on the purchase side. And I know my broker has a very good reputation amongst buyers as honest with high integrity. I am a federally licensed aircraft technician and my job at times includes inspecting and returning aircraft to service. I would have thought I could catch some of the issues my surveyor found but they all required quite a bit of sleuthing, knowing where to look, prior knowledge of similar boats (and haulout) to find.

Some of the boats I've looked at and dismissed outright -Hylas 42, Hylas 44, -Lafitte 44, Kelly Peterson 44 (and KP46), Baba 40, Panda 40, Mason 43, Valiant 40, Caliber 40, Tayana 42 and a few others.


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## CheckedOutRob (Nov 3, 2012)

Wow -Thanks to everybody for your great insights!! I think many people have been in my shoes. JulieMor you have some wise words and you seem to know finance! I've taken everyones input and now am comforted by the fact that I'm not off my rocker. Yes, I'm a serious buyer. I realize that my purchase price of apx. $170 will likely need another $50k all said and done before I'm ready to cross oceans. 

I guess it may just take a LOT LONGER than I was expecting. More than the year I've put in. I think another poster is correct in that you have to be in the right place at the right time and be ready with cash in the correct market. Ive got the cash. In this market it seems boats would likely be neglected due to distressed owners making up the bulk of sellers. The corollary would be a great market with well maintained boats at commensurately higher prices.

I've tried but found it almost impossible to deal with a seller directly. Brokers are very protective of any identifying info. I've found a few boats (I've walked the docks in several cities) and when I find a boat I have left a message in a plastic bag tied to their lifeline. No luck there so far. Asking other boaters on the dock around the marina about the owner usually gets nowhere. Most folks with boats nearby usually say "I never see them here". The dockmaster will not reveal any info for legal reasons. 

I've asked several brokers to go through their past clients and find someone with the boats on my target list and ask if they might sell. That has not come up with any boats.

Know of anyone out there with a Nordic 44? Norseman 447? Passport 40? If they have cruising gear on board I'll make them a sweet offer


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

Well you found out the hard way ; -

There are liars.

There are dammed liars 

Then there are people selling boats.

Ok this is not universally true and I looked at boats that had been honestly described and talked to brokers where after a little probing the broker came up with things like;-

"The owner has not been aboard for 18 months"

"The owner can't drop the price, that is what he owes the bank."

"No I have not actually seen the boat."

It is definitely worth having a checklist of questions and to ask for some specific pics of anything you might have concerns about. 

But that won't protect you from someone who just lies to get you there. I travelled a couple of hundred miles to look at boat that was described as 'ready for the water' and 'on a roadworthy trailer' There were holes in the deck and topsides, the trailer had no tow hitch and all tires were flat. I did not even get out of the car. The pictures he sent must have either been from an earlier age or of another boat. 

However there are many good brokers around here are two that dealt very fairly with me and saved me from making pointless trips. 

Dave McCall Maritime Yacht Sales USVI. He flew to another island and took many extra pictures for me.

Advantage Yacht Sales of Indiantown. They answered questions very honestly and in some cases hinted that the boat had just been put on the market and that while the price was clearly unrealistic the seller needed to 'marinate' for a year or so when the price would tumble.


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## FSMike (Jan 15, 2010)

CheckedOutRob said:


> ---
> LOOK. IF YOU ARE A SELLER DON'T FREEKING LYE TO MY FACE -I'M GONNA FIND THIS STUFF OUT ANYWAY. STOP BEING A DOUCHBAG. ---


CheckedOutRob -
If you want to vent spelling is important.
"freeking" should be "freaking"
"lye"should be "lie"
"douchbag" should be "douchebag"
There. I feel better now. Lol.

Zee - I don't get your reference to misspelling "maroon"? 
Unless you're referring to "moronic"?


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

CheckedOutRob said:


> Wow -Thanks to everybody for your great insights!! I think many people have been in my shoes. JulieMor you have some wise words and you seem to know finance! I've taken everyones input and now am comforted by the fact that I'm not off my rocker. Yes, I'm a serious buyer. I realize that my purchase price of apx. $170 will likely need another $50k all said and done before I'm ready to cross oceans.
> 
> I guess it may just take a LOT LONGER than I was expecting. More than the year I've put in. I think another poster is correct in that you have to be in the right place at the right time and be ready with cash in the correct market. Ive got the cash. In this market it seems boats would likely be neglected due to distressed owners making up the bulk of sellers. The corollary would be a great market with well maintained boats at commensurately higher prices.
> 
> ...


I guess I'm still not clear on your pricing. Are you saying you have a purchase budget of $170K - and are expecting to put in another $50K to get her ready?

At least according to the photos - this looks like a damn nice Passport - for way less than $170K:

1984 Passport 42 New Decks 42 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

And it doesn't appear that you'd need another $50K to shove off.

[Disclaimer - I have no idea if the people involved with this boat are LMDs.]


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## jorgenl (Aug 14, 2006)

smackdaddy said:


> I guess I'm still not clear on your pricing. Are you saying you have a purchase budget of $170K - and are expecting to put in another $50K to get her ready?
> 
> At least according to the photos - this looks like a damn nice Passport 40 - for way less than $170K:
> 
> ...


I've seen (been aboard) this Passport 42. It is (was) located at Jabin's yard in Annaplois.

It has been on the market for 2-2.5 years. Think it started out at 130-140K.

Cosmetically it looks quite good.

Beware of offsett companion way.


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## Delirious (Dec 16, 2001)

And from the seller's point of view:

Don't come back with a counter offer 25% lower than asking because it needs x, y and z. I know this, that's why I set the price where it was when put up for sale. Start with the price of a *new* boat and deduct the value if you think fixing x, y and z should be on my tab or you want them corrected as a condition of sale to make a 25 year old boat like new.

But yes - these flaws should all be mentioned if known. Inventory and age of sales, structural integrity, maintenance history, rotted cores, etc.


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## Skagit (May 31, 2013)

To speak to your original question...yes.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

Delirious said:


> And from the seller's point of view:
> 
> Don't come back with a counter offer 25% lower than asking because it needs x, y and z. I know this, that's why I set the price where it was when put up for sale. Start with the price of a *new* boat and deduct the value if you think fixing x, y and z should be on my tab or you want them corrected as a condition of sale to make a 25 year old boat like new.
> 
> But yes - these flaws should all be mentioned if known. Inventory and age of sales, structural integrity, maintenance history, rotted cores, etc.


Some owners/sellers are just unrealistic when they set the price. Some brokers will go along.

My first offer was about 45% of the original asking price and the deal done at around 50% on my current boat. Yes they sunk a ton of money into the boat but that was the market price. It needed nothing doing to it at all, truly turnkey. I did change the perfectly good manual windlass for an electric one as I regard this as a safety device.


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## sailpower (Jun 28, 2008)

BubbleheadMd said:


> Rob,
> 
> I agree with Tim R. about "timing".
> I disagree about going through brokers.
> ...


There are lots of FSBO boats like yours at the sub 10K-20K point. At his level most are listed with brokers

I don't get why he doesn't just go look at boats that are listed for sale whether privately or with a broker? If he finds one he likes, make an offer that he is happy with and if they accept, what does he care if the seller pays a fee?

Sellers, brokers and buyers come in all flavors. It's just the way it is.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

jorgenl said:


> I've seen (been aboard) this Passport 42. It is (was) located at Jabin's yard in Annaplois.
> 
> It has been on the market for 2-2.5 years. Think it started out at 130-140K.
> 
> ...


I have also been on that boat. It has severe stree fractures below the companionway door and that whole area was rebuilt. In addition the interior was poorly taken care of and there is evidence of leaking. Some of which was probably from the original teak dek which has been replaced with fiberglass

This boats a dog with lipstick. That's why it's been on the market 2 years


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

sailpower said:


> Sellers, brokers and buyers come in all flavors. It's just the way it is.


Exactly. Yes, there are lying, moronic, douchebags out there. But there are also plenty of honest, realistic people trying to sell their boats. You just have to sift the chaff from the wheat. It may take a bit of time to figure out how to do this, but it really is not that hard.

No offense intended to the OP, honestly, but if you find that you really are ALWAYS running into LMDs, perhaps you need to take a look at what it is that you are doing that leads you to them.

Good luck.


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## jorgenl (Aug 14, 2006)

chef2sail said:


> This boats a dog with lipstick. That's why it's been on the market 2 years


Hence - "Cosmetically it looks quite good."

Maybe I should have added a: .

Yeah, the interior was funky, seem to remember that it might have been re-varnished.

The interior layout of the P42 is weird with the "workbench" stbd of companionway.

Enigne access - strange.

BTW - should it be "pig with lipstick" ;-)


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## TJC45 (Jul 10, 2013)

Delirious said:


> And from the seller's point of view:
> 
> Don't come back with a counter offer 25% lower than asking because it needs x, y and z. I know this, that's why I set the price where it was when put up for sale. Start with the price of a *new* boat and deduct the value if you think fixing x, y and z should be on my tab or you want them corrected as a condition of sale to make a 25 year old boat like new.
> 
> But yes - these flaws should all be mentioned if known. Inventory and age of sales, structural integrity, maintenance history, rotted cores, etc.


And this is where I have a problem. Owners getting bent out of shape by what they perceive as a low ball offer.

This is a negotiation. In negotiation the seller starts high and the buyer starts low. it's the opening bid. That's the way the world works! Nothing to get the short and curlies twisted in a knot over. Buyers can't go down price once they've put an offer out there. The offer can go only one way - up.

As you, the seller, has judged what the boat is worth, I the buyer will make that same judgement. And since it's my money making the deal go to closing, my judgement will prevail. That is - we need to agree. And either we will or we won't.

Regardless, the worst thing a seller can do in a negotiation is get PO'd at a buyer over the opening offer. Geez, got an offer? Any offer? let the game begin!!!!


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## TJC45 (Jul 10, 2013)

One problem i've experienced in the boat selling world that would seem backwards is the make an offer before knowing if the boat is a viable candidate. 

A visual inspection can yield some obvious problems not factored into the asking price. The broker advises to make an offer and let a surveyor figure it out. Here is the issue: You already know the boat has some issues. These issues could be deal killers if you don't like the outcome of the survey. Yet, here is a seller/broker asking you to make an offer in the blind and then put out for a survey all for a boat you may not want. This seems ass backwards to me.


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## sailpower (Jun 28, 2008)

TJC45 said:


> One problem i've experienced in the boat selling world that would seem backwards is the make an offer before knowing if the boat is a viable candidate.
> 
> A visual inspection can yield some obvious problems not factored into the asking price. The broker advises to make an offer and let a surveyor figure it out. Here is the issue: You already know the boat has some issues. These issues could be deal killers if you don't like the outcome of the survey. Yet, here is a seller/broker asking you to make an offer in the blind and then put out for a survey all for a boat you may not want. This seems ass backwards to me.


You don't have a home inspection till after you have agreed on a price. Pretty much the same thing?


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

TJC, in my case I did it "backward." I had a certain amount of "cash" and wasn't willing to finance. Most of the boats I was interested in were listed at 50-100% more than my budget. I was honest and up-front, told the seller what my limit was, but also reminded them that I had cash and there weren't any financing deals to fall through, conditions based on the sale of a current boat, etc. I always made the offer contingent on my review and a survey, and made it clear that I assumed there wouldn't be any unexpected surprises. Not everyone appreciated my approach (I was called names several times), but some appreciated the candor, and I actually visited several boats before settling on the one I bought.

Of course, that doesn't help the OP, but that's a separate issue...


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## jorgenl (Aug 14, 2006)

sailpower said:


> You don't have a home inspection till after you have agreed on a price.


Generally speaking not. Probably for a reason.

I was recently in a situation where I, due to certain circumstances, had the opportunity to have a home inspection done prior to making an offer and negotiating price on a property.

This can be a good situation for a buyer to be in.

You know (hopefully) all the issues prior to negotiation and come to the table armed with facts.


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## TJC45 (Jul 10, 2013)

jimgo said:


> TJC, in my case I did it "backward." I had a certain amount of "cash" and wasn't willing to finance. Most of the boats I was interested in were listed at 50-100% more than my budget. I was honest and up-front, told the seller what my limit was, but also reminded them that I had cash and there weren't any financing deals to fall through, conditions based on the sale of a current boat, etc. I always made the offer contingent on my review and a survey, and made it clear that I assumed there wouldn't be any unexpected surprises. Not everyone appreciated my approach (I was called names several times), but some appreciated the candor, and I actually visited several boats before settling on the one I bought.
> 
> Of course, that doesn't help the OP, but that's a separate issue...


Jimgo, excellent advice!!! The way to buy a boat. or, anything else for that matter! Be upfront about the money. Establish that you aren't a lowballer just out to squeeze the seller. And, remind the seller of any benefits you bring to the table. For instance- cash in hand!!!!


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## TJC45 (Jul 10, 2013)

sailpower said:


> You don't have a home inspection till after you have agreed on a price. Pretty much the same thing?


That's a good point. My take, generally speaking, is that a home sale is a done deal for more reasons than the house itself. The neighborhood, location, the grounds, school systems etc. Buyers are unlikely to make an offer on a house where they believe a major walk away issue exists. Yet in boatdom, this is the way it's done. Making an offer on a boat, I don't want to be out a $1000 or more just to find out the boat is a pass.

I once was interested in a Pearson 35. Problem was the coach roof was warped by the roof stepped mast bearing down on it. That was an expensive problem to fix. Yet not reflected in the price. "Make an offer and let the surveyor figure it out." OK i do that and he tells me I got good news and i got bad news. The good is that the oak block under the compression post is toast. And that can be fixed. The bad - the cabin roof is permanently torqued so the boat is junk, do i get my $1000 survey fee back?

Not likely!


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## jorgenl (Aug 14, 2006)

TJC45 said:


> Jimgo, excellent advice!!! The way to buy a boat. or, anything else for that matter! Be upfront about the money. Establish that you aren't a lowballer just out to squeeze the seller. And, remind the seller of any benefits you bring to the table. For instance- cash in hand!!!!


I think it depends a lot on which end of the market you are talking about.

Boats for $15K, $150K or >$500K...

The guy with an older 30 footer which market value is $15K might be willing to let it go for $10K , "just to get rid of it" considering slip fees, insurance and maintenance may amount to equal or more than $5K/yr. Also $5K may not feel like such a "hard hit" to the seller.

The guy with a $150K (market value) boat will probably be less likely to sell it for $100K (unless very dire circumstances) since his slip fees, insurance and maintenance will not amount to $50K/yr. Also, for most people, $50K is a significant financial loss.

The guy with the >$500K boat is not going to lose 30-50% on a boat deal. He is smart. and rich. he can just wait.

Broad generalizations, I know ...


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

TJC45 said:


> I once was interested in a Pearson 35. Problem was the coach roof was warped by the roof stepped mast bearing down on it. That was an expensive problem to fix. Yet not reflected in the price. "Make an offer and let the surveyor figure it out." OK i do that and he tells me I got good news and i got bad news. The good is that the oak block under the compression post is toast. And that can be fixed. The bad - the cabin roof is permanently torqued so the boat is junk, do i get my $1000 survey fee back?


I'm not sure I understand your complaint here. You saw the boat. You knew there was something wrong with the coach roof, even though at this point you did not know exactly what. You made your offer. I assume that you made a lower offer than you would have if you had not known there was something wrong with the coach roof. You get the survey and find the boat is not acceptable.

Sounds to me like it worked exactly like it is supposed to. Yes, you're out the cost of the survey, but how else could you find out that the roof was not repairable? The point of the survey is to find out if there is anything significant, not already accounted for in the price, that you cannot tell through your own careful inspection. And in this case you found that out.

Or is it that you are upset with the seller for not telling you ahead of time that the boat was junk? If he didn't know then you can hardly blame him for that. If he did know then he is another one of the LMDs from the subject line.

Again, I guess I'm just not sure how it is that you think it is supposed to work.


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## sailpower (Jun 28, 2008)

TJC45 said:


> That's a good point. My take, generally speaking, is that a home sale is a done deal for more reasons than the house itself. The neighborhood, location, the grounds, school systems etc. Buyers are unlikely to make an offer on a house where they believe a major walk away issue exists. Yet in boatdom, this is the way it's done. Making an offer on a boat, I don't want to be out a $1000 or more just to find out the boat is a pass.
> 
> I once was interested in a Pearson 35. Problem was the coach roof was warped by the roof stepped mast bearing down on it. That was an expensive problem to fix. Yet not reflected in the price. "Make an offer and let the surveyor figure it out." OK i do that and he tells me I got good news and i got bad news. The good is that the oak block under the compression post is toast. And that can be fixed. The bad - the cabin roof is permanently torqued so the boat is junk, do i get my $1000 survey fee back?
> 
> Not likely!


You are buying a used boat without a warranty so there is always risk.

In your Pearson example, suppose you had spent the $1,000 on a survey prior to making an offer and then the seller rejects what you offer him? You don't get the survey money back.

Suppose after you pay for the survey but before a contract is ratified another buyer comes along and offers the seller a higher price? You don't get the survey money back then either.

These contracts are supposed to protect the rights of both parties as best as can be foreseen.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Mike-
"Maroon" comes from an old Daffy Duck line in a Looney Tune. Whether Zee remembers watching it or not, Daffy said it first. Works for me, the maroons never figure it out.

Rob-
Year after year, the Nooze do surveys on private used car ads, like in the classifieds. And year after year, they keep finding the same Astounding Nooze, that 90% of the ads are frauds and lies, often from unlicensed "brokers" not private sellers at all. SO, why should the boat market be any better?

If you see somethign interesting, send 'em an email and make sure the footer says "Warning: Making false claims or intentionally failing to disclose known defects may be prosecuted as criminal fraud resulting in monetary fines, loss of business license, and time in prison."

You'll probably never hear from 90% of them again, and that's a good thing. Other than that there's not much you can do, except carry a wrench and open the seacocks on the boats that are mis-represented. You'll be doing everyone a favor.

Just one man's opinion. (Wanna borrow a wrench?)


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## az_r2d1 (Jul 4, 2013)

CheckedOutRob said:


> Wow -Thanks to everybody for your great insights!! I think many people have been in my shoes. JulieMor you have some wise words and you seem to know finance! I've taken everyones input and now am comforted by the fact that I'm not off my rocker. Yes, I'm a serious buyer. I realize that my purchase price of apx. $170 will likely need another $50k all said and done before I'm ready to cross oceans.
> 
> I guess it may just take a LOT LONGER than I was expecting. More than the year I've put in. I think another poster is correct in that you have to be in the right place at the right time and be ready with cash in the correct market. Ive got the cash. In this market it seems boats would likely be neglected due to distressed owners making up the bulk of sellers. The corollary would be a great market with well maintained boats at commensurately higher prices.
> 
> ...


I sure hope you used a different tone in the notes you left, otherwise you are guaranteed not to get a response.

You can look at it in several ways. I'd still put an offer out, but I'd lower it with what it would cost to get it ALL up to a level you like. Most will refuse, and yes, it takes time and yes it is frustrating. 
But, you might find a desperate seller and get it for a steal.

Boats are NEVER perfect. They always need some work. It can always be improved. The only really good boats are not for sale, or were just sold.


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## TJC45 (Jul 10, 2013)

denverd0n said:


> I'm not sure I understand your complaint here. You saw the boat. You knew there was something wrong with the coach roof, even though at this point you did not know exactly what. You made your offer. I assume that you made a lower offer than you would have if you had not known there was something wrong with the coach roof. You get the survey and find the boat is not acceptable.
> 
> Sounds to me like it worked exactly like it is supposed to. Yes, you're out the cost of the survey, but how else could you find out that the roof was not repairable? The point of the survey is to find out if there is anything significant, not already accounted for in the price, that you cannot tell through your own careful inspection. And in this case you found that out.
> 
> ...


I wasn't upset at all. Just faced with the ass backwards world of boat buying in the blind.

Actually I did know what was wrong with roof. And i knew the mast compression block was fixable. What i didn't know was how much damage was done to the roof and other structures from this neglected repair.

But to clear it up for you, here is my thinking. Paying someone money to tell me if this boat could be fixed makes as much sense to me as finding a crashed damaged car, with an asking price that ignores the damage, and then paying someone to tell me if it can be repaired. Who does that?

If we don't do it with cars and other large ticket items why are we doing it with boats?

As i said this is my opinion, nothing more.

BTW, i passed on making an offer as it was too much of a roll of the dice. Small repairs, minor blistering, normal wear and tear I'm good with. Major structural issues, not so much. I wasn't looking for a project boat. As well the broker in this case did his client no good in indicating low ball offers wouldn't be entertained. OK, at that point I was tempted to low ball him just to bust him, but at this point we were no longer dealing with reality. Time to walk and i did.


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## TJC45 (Jul 10, 2013)

sailpower said:


> You are buying a used boat without a warranty so there is always risk.
> 
> In your Pearson example, suppose you had spent the $1,000 on a survey prior to making an offer and then the seller rejects what you offer him? You don't get the survey money back.
> 
> ...


I've never contracted a survey before the offer was accepted. The buyer backing out of an accepted offer would create liabilty on his part for my cost. I've never had this happen. Not even aware if it can happen.


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

TJC45 said:


> Paying someone money to tell me if this boat could be fixed makes as much sense to me as finding a crashed damaged car, with an asking price that ignores the damage, and then paying someone to tell me if it can be repaired. Who does that?


Everyone who doesn't have the expertise to know for themselves how much the repairs will cost, or if they are possible.

For example, I once bought a collectors car that had serious engine problems. I made an offer based on my guess of what repairs would cost, but made the offer contingent on a mechanic checking it over. Once the mechanic told me exactly what the repairs would require (a whole new engine) I revised my offer based on that. In the end, I bought the car.

I have done the exact same when buying a house. Offer based on what I know, contingent on inspection. When the inspection revealed some unknowns the offer was modified.

Honestly, I don't know how else you think it COULD work.

The comment about "asking price that ignores the damage" is irrelevant. The seller can ask whatever they want. I can offer whatever I want. My offer will be based on what I know about what I'm buying (regardless of whether that is a house, a car, or a boat), and on what I consider it to be worth. It will NOT be based on what the seller is asking. The survey/inspection will inform me about things that I don't know.

So now I'm beginning to wonder, is it that you assume you have to offer 10% off of the sellers asking price (or some other number like that), rather than ignoring the asking price and offering what you think the item is worth? You keep bringing up what the seller is asking, and how they don't want to account for the needed repairs. Who cares? Again, the seller can ask whatever they want. I'm only going to offer what I think it is worth, taking into account what I already know, and contingent on having someone who is more knowledgeable than me tell me what I don't know. This is not backwards. This is exactly how it should, and does, work for almost all big-ticket items--cars, houses, boats, airplanes, etc.


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## TJC45 (Jul 10, 2013)

denverd0n said:


> Everyone who doesn't have the expertise to know for themselves how much the repairs will cost, or if they are possible.
> 
> For example, I once bought a collectors car that had serious engine problems. I made an offer based on my guess of what repairs would cost, but made the offer contingent on a mechanic checking it over. Once the mechanic told me exactly what the repairs would require (a whole new engine) I revised my offer based on that. In the end, I bought the car.
> 
> ...


Denver i think we are missing each other on this one.

If the mast problem had done serious damage to the hull, hull/keel joint, deck hull joint, the deck, the mast, the hull liner, the cost to fix all these items could exceed the value of the boat. That being the case, should I have offered zero? Damage to all these areas was within the realm of possibility, which is why i walked away from this one.

To my point, it makes no sense to have to make offers in the blind, and then pay someone to tell you you need to walk away from this one. The non disclosure on the part of sellers/brokers, IMO, borders on fraudulent behavior. Instead of telling you what they already know, they tell you to figure it out for yourself. There should be disclosure up front. With that disclosure an informed buying decision can be made.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

TJC45 said:


> To my point, it makes no sense to have to make offers in the blind, and then pay someone to tell you you need to walk away from this one. The non disclosure on the part of sellers/brokers, IMO, borders on fraudulent behavior. Instead of telling you what they already know, they tell you to figure it out for yourself. There should be disclosure up front. With that disclosure an informed buying decision can be made.


I'm COMPLETELY with Denver on this one. You'll never know everything that could possibly be wrong, nor will you know exactly what it will cost to fix it. I had a very, very good survey - but the estimates I got to fix the problems (from _everyone_ involved) were low. And there were other problems no one, not even the surveyor could catch (based on how typical "non-invasive" surveys are done). So it's all going to cost me a fair amount more than I'd planned for. C'est un bateau!

Now, if the seller/broker is intentionally withholding information - _and you can prove it_ - then you'd have cause to go after them for your costs (and maybe more). Otherwise, you do it just like Denver laid out.


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

TJC45 said:


> To my point, it makes no sense to have to make offers in the blind, and then pay someone to tell you you need to walk away from this one. The non disclosure on the part of sellers/brokers, IMO, borders on fraudulent behavior.


Okay, so I was right back when I asked if your complaint was that the seller didn't tell you about this. Some sellers, as has been mentioned, really are LMDs, just like in the subject line of this thread. Seems maybe you ran into one.

Some will tell you what they know about what is wrong with a boat. Whether they tell you or not, though, it is still _caveat emptor._

Some on this forum have suggested that you ask the seller to sign a statement saying that he/she has disclosed all known defects. Can't hurt to ask, but even if you do, it is STILL incumbent on you to make your own inspection and maybe pay a surveyor. The seller might actually not know about a defect, or he might (gasp!) lie about not knowing.

In any case, this is certainly not backwards from the way other big-ticket items are sold. It is, in fact, exactly the same as the way other big-ticket items are sold. I don't think we're missing each other on this so much as you seem to be expecting something that is just unrealistic. That is, that you should never have to hire a surveyor, because the seller will always know everything that is wrong with his boat, how much repairs will cost, and will be absolutely honest about telling you all of this.

And if I'm wrong, and you actually aren't hoping for this unrealistic scenario, then I do not understand how you can consider it unreasonable or "backwards" to hire a surveyor to help you with your due diligence. The whole process just seems perfectly natural and proper to me exactly the way it is.


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## sailpower (Jun 28, 2008)

TJC45 said:


> I've never contracted a survey before the offer was accepted. The buyer backing out of an accepted offer would create liabilty on his part for my cost. I've never had this happen. Not even aware if it can happen.


Sorry. I guess I am confused about what you are saying is backwards.

As you state, you make an offer based on what you see then once accepted go to survey. If the survey doesn't work out to your satisfaction and the seller won't budge then you are free to reject the boat but will be out the survey expense. Also, if you don't like what you see or suspect then you don't make the offer in the first place. Do we agree that this is the norm and not "backwards?"

In the Pearson case you said that you decided not to make an offer based on your inspection and concerns. Are you saying that the problem is the perceived lack of full disclosure? If so, I would suggest that the system isn't backwards but rather, as always, it is buyer beware.

It's possible that the seller didn't know anything else was wrong if in fact there was. It's also possible that he was dishonest. Different states do have recourse in the case of non-disclosure but isn't that a separate issue from the offer/survey process?


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

Any newbie entering the boat buying process reading this thread will come away with this:
1. Caveat emptor
2. Caveat emptor
3. Take out your checkbook and start writing checks.

In other words, "A boat is a hole in the water into which you pour money."

_I did a Google Image search of that saying and up came pictures of hundreds of boats._ :laugher


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## TJC45 (Jul 10, 2013)

Denver here is where we are missing each other - using your classic car example, you were going to buy that car regardless of the problem. in fact the problem, if anything gave you negotiating leverage. The car has value regardless of the problem. And it could be rehabbed, so to speak. You knew up front that the engine had a serious problem and that in its self was not a deal killer. Any costs associated with determining the extent of the problem, equal more leverage in your favor in the deal's final outcome. IOW, no matter what the problem, you are coming out on top. There is no negative financial consequense to your buying decision. And the truth is, you and the seller agreed UPFRONT that there was an issue. And that issue played a large roll in your intial offer. 

Not so on a boat that fails an inspection with a walk away problem. There is a financial consequense to the buyer when this happens. 

Here is where we differ- Many boats have such serious hidden defects that they are not only not worth the asking price, but any price. This Pearson was but just one example. The boat posted by the OP another. 


That i was asked to put in an offer and spend money on a junk boat, just as the OP did do, isn't because all owners are lying DBs. it's because that's how the boat buying process works.


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

TJC45 said:


> Denver here is where we are missing each other - using your classic car example, you were going to buy that car regardless of the problem.


No, that's not true. The "survey" I had done on the car revealed something I didn't know. I told the seller he had to come down further on the price if he wanted to sell it to me. He did. We made the deal.

This is exactly--EXACTLY!--the way a boat survey works. If you find out something you don't know about it's back to the negotiating table. You may be able to make a deal, or you may not. But now you have more information than you did before. Information that you could not have gotten without paying someone more knowledgeable than yourself to take a look at whatever it is that you're buying.



TJC45 said:


> IOW, no matter what the problem, you are coming out on top. There is no negative financial consequense to your buying decision. And the truth is, you and the seller agreed UPFRONT that there was an issue.


And once again, absolutely not true. The seller didn't agree to anything. He insisted, in fact, that the engine was not that bad and only needed a tune-up. I told him I wasn't going to buy the car without having a mechanic (at my expense, obviously) check out the engine carefully.

He could still have insisted on the original price, the deal would have fallen through, and I would have been out the cost of the mechanic's time. Once again, EXACTLY the way a boat survey/purchase works.

In addition, the mechanic not only checked the engine, he also looked over the suspension and checked the transmission. It was entirely possible, had he found significant issues with these other things, that it would have been a "walk away" for me. There are plenty of cars out there that "have such serious hidden defects that they are not only not worth the asking price, but any price." That's why we have auto junk yards, after all.

I chose to spend some of my own money to make sure about the car. I had no guarantee that the mechanic would find anything, or that he would not find something that made the car a "walk away," or that the seller would agree to further negotiations if the mechanic did find something.

And yet, one more time, this is EXACTLY how buying a boat works. It is EXACTLY how buying an airplane works. And it is EXACTLY how buying a house works. All of which, by the way, can have serious hidden defects that make them a "walk away." The boat buying process is not "backwards" in any regard. It works just like buying any other big-ticket item.

No offense, honestly, but it is beginning to sound like you're just pissed off because you think the seller knew that the boat was junk and didn't admit it. That's a whole different issue than whether or not the boat buying process is backwards. Or maybe you're annoyed that you weren't able to tell how bad the problem with the boat was yourself, without paying for a survey. Again, a whole different issue than whether or not the boat buying process is backwards.

The boat buying process is not backwards. In fact, it is almost identical to the buying process for any big-ticket item.


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## TJC45 (Jul 10, 2013)

smackdaddy said:


> I'm COMPLETELY with Denver on this one. You'll never know everything that could possibly be wrong, nor will you know exactly what it will cost to fix it. I had a very, very good survey - but the estimates I got to fix the problems (from _everyone_ involved) were low. And there were other problems no one, not even the surveyor could catch (based on how typical "non-invasive" surveys are done). So it's all going to cost me a fair amount more than I'd planned for. C'est un bateau!
> 
> Now, if the seller/broker is intentionally withholding information - _and you can prove it_ - then you'd have cause to go after them for your costs (and maybe more). Otherwise, you do it just like Denver laid out.


Smack, i agree that noone knows everything and that even the most competent surveyor could miss some things or under estimate the cost to repair. Not at issue. Not what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about the order of business. In the boat buying world it is offer - disclosure. It should be disclosure - offer. How can you bid on something without knowing it's true condition? Bidding on something without knowing it's true condition is bidding in the blind. In some arena's like bidding on foreclosed homes bidding in the blind is the way it's done. Step up, roll the dice. Usually placing uninformed bids is a formula for financial disaster.

This is not the way it is done in other arenas of large ticket sales. From EBay to the Manheim Auto auction it is full disclosure up front. (BTW, dealers who misrepresent or omit material facts about vehicle condition at Manheim are sanctioned up to and including being barred. Ebay does the same) Buyers are reasonably assured as to the condition of the items they are buying. Bids are made relying on that information. IOW, disclosure then bid, not the other way around.


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## jorgenl (Aug 14, 2006)

TJC45 said:


> Smack, i agree that noone knows everything and that even the most competent surveyor could miss some things or under estimate the cost to repair. Not at issue. Not what I'm talking about.
> 
> I'm talking about the order of business. In the boat buying world it is offer - disclosure. It should be disclosure - offer. How can you bid on something without knowing it's true condition? Bidding on something without knowing it's true condition is bidding in the blind. In some arena's like bidding on foreclosed homes bidding in the blind is the way it's done. Step up, roll the dice. Usually placing uninformed bids is a formula for financial disaster.
> 
> This is not the way it is done in other arenas of large ticket sales. From EBay to the Manheim Auto auction it is full disclosure up front. (BTW, dealers who misrepresent or omit material facts about vehicle condition at Manheim are sanctioned up to and including being barred. Ebay does the same) Buyers are reasonably assured as to the condition of the items they are buying. Bids are made relying on that information. IOW, disclosure then bid, not the other way around.


The problem is that the seller cannot disclose what he does not know.

It takes a professional such as a surveyor, rigger or diesel mechanic to find certain types of problems.

TJ, no offense, but how long have you been around boats? How many boats have you bought/sold?

When I sold my last boat, the surveyor found (minor) things that I was not aware of. In fact it is very, very unusual for a survey to come out entirely without findings.

You should not be too pissed off on spending $1K on a survey that made you walk, how much would it have cost you in the end if you had bought the vessel?


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## TJC45 (Jul 10, 2013)

denverd0n said:


> No, that's not true. The "survey" I had done on the car revealed something I didn't know. I told the seller he had to come down further on the price if he wanted to sell it to me. He did. We made the deal.
> 
> This is exactly--EXACTLY!--the way a boat survey works. If you find out something you don't know about it's back to the negotiating table. You may be able to make a deal, or you may not. But now you have more information than you did before. Information that you could not have gotten without paying someone more knowledgeable than yourself to take a look at whatever it is that you're buying.
> 
> ...


1. not pissed off at all. The seller had to know the boat was junk. Just frustrated that he was Ok with me spending my money to figure out what he already knew. How could i be mad at him? he was following the time honored imbedded process. 
2. I don't know who you buy your aircraft from but i've bought more than my share planes and helicopters. None of those deals worked like a boat deal. ( was in the biz for about ten years) 
3. I've also sold more than my share of planes and helicopters and each was offered with full disclosure. Including two helicopters with damage histories. Wanna make an offer, here is what you are bidding on - everything I know listed up front.
4. Same with the boats i've sold. Full disclosure. I took a 5k hit to the normal market value when i sold my Boston Whaler last year. The boat was equipped with an Evinrude motor from the Ficht fuel injection era. That engine never missed a beat, but it put OMC out of business. The engine's bad rep has faded into internet history, but i put it up front and center. I don't need someone calling me a month after the deal is done telling me i cheated them via non disclosure. Just not who i am. The 5k it cost me is more than worth my peace of mind. But i'll tell ya, i see plenty of these engines on boats for sale and not a word about what they are. Why? because that's the assbackwards way the boat selling bisuiness works! let the buyer figure it out, or not.


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## TJC45 (Jul 10, 2013)

jorgenl said:


> The problem is that the seller cannot disclose what he does not know.
> 
> It takes a professional such as a surveyor, rigger or diesel mechanic to find certain types of problems.
> 
> ...


Again, no problem with the normal minor things a survey would find.

The issue is disclosure. The problem is the sellers/brokers do know but do not disclose. it is what has the OP so upset that he calls them lying DBs! I agree with him.

As far as how many boats have i owned and how long i've been around boats? Funny how by my questioning the process you take me as newb who just fell off a hay wagon. Apparently questioning an imbedded process is a foreign concept here. So just to restate it again, I question the offer - disclosure order of business that is the boat selling industry. Bidding without disclosure is bidding in the blind. Of course all offers are contingent. And surveys will turn up nit picking problems. Most of which won't slow the process. Not what this is about.

To answer your question:

I've owned boats since i was 17 years old. Lets count the boats i've owned-

18' Winner ( or was it a 19'?)

Hobie 16 ( I've owned 3)

Hobie 14

Hobie 18

Inter 20

Inter 17

J22

Mariner 19

Beneteau First 345

Boston Whaler Dauntless 18

Sea Ray 270 Sundancer

Sea Ray 370 Sundancer

How many is that? I bought and sold every one of these boats myself with exception of one Hobie 16, which i still own. Am i qualified to speak or are there more tests?


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## jorgenl (Aug 14, 2006)

TJC45 said:


> Again, no problem with the normal minor things a survey would find.
> 
> The issue is disclosure. The problem is the sellers/brokers do know but do not disclose. it is what has the OP so upset that he calls them lying DBs! I agree with him.
> 
> ...


TJ, I sincerely meant the no offense bit. No tests required.


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

TJC45 said:


> The seller had to know the boat was junk.


I have to say that I think you are off base in making this assumption. There are a lot of neglected boats out there, that the seller hasn't even looked at in many years. In addition, I can tell you I never inspected any of the boats that I've owned, during the time that I owned them, as carefully as I did before I bought them. What's more, you inspected the boat yourself, probably more closely than the seller has in a long time, and YOU couldn't tell that it was junk. So how can you be so sure that he knew?

Beyond that, I think I'm beginning to get the picture. You could tell that there was a serious problem with the boat. You wanted the seller to tell you just how bad it was. The broker suggested that you should make an offer and get a surveyor to answer that question for you. And you went along.

Sorry to tell you, but you made a mistake. You should not have gone ahead with the survey without getting an answer to your question first. It is most definitely NOT the "normal" process in boat-buying to make an offer when you still have questions for the seller. Perhaps the broker tried to convince you that this is the way it normally works, but it is not.

It is not, offer first, then disclosure later. It is, make a careful inspection, ask your questions, get your answers, make an offer, then get a survey and do a sea trial to reveal whatever might still be hidden. That's the "normal" process.

And yet once again, yes, some sellers and brokers are LMDs. And yet another time, once again, that is a problem with dishonest people, it is not a problem with the boat-buying process. The boat buying process is not backwards.

Edited to add: You also seem to think that surveys are only supposed to turn up "minor," "nit picking" things. Sometimes that is true. Especially if you've done a really good, thorough inspection yourself, and asked a lot of questions ahead of time. Sometimes, though, surveys turn up extremely major things that neither the seller nor the buyer knew about beforehand. This is why you get a survey, after all. If it was a certainty that any unknown issues would be minor nit-picks then it would be silly to spend the money on a survey. The whole point of a survey is to find out if there are any major problems that are hidden.

Like jorgenl, I honestly mean no offense, but you really do seem to have some confusion about how the boat buying process is supposed to work.


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## TJC45 (Jul 10, 2013)

denverd0n said:


> I have to say that I think you are off base in making this assumption. There are a lot of neglected boats out there, that the seller hasn't even looked at in many years. In addition, I can tell you I never inspected any of the boats that I've owned, during the time that I owned them, as carefully as I did before I bought them. What's more, you inspected the boat yourself, probably more closely than the seller has in a long time, and YOU couldn't tell that it was junk. So how can you be so sure that he knew?
> 
> Beyond that, I think I'm beginning to get the picture. You could tell that there was a serious problem with the boat. You wanted the seller to tell you just how bad it was. The broker suggested that you should make an offer and get a surveyor to answer that question for you. And you went along.
> 
> ...


As i said i didn't "go along." Why would I? The boat had a glaring problem.

I see it as a problem with the process. It has gone the same way with every used large boat i've purchased, The Bene, and both Searays. But with those boats, to use an aircraft saying, there was nothing hanging, nothing dripping. Still i was on my own to discover whatever there was to discover about these boats and bid in the blind. With nothing obvious offers were made, surveys completed and closing those deals was a formality. The Pearson just accentuates the glaring idiocy of this process. While the process works just fine for the normal scratch and dent disclosures of most surveys it doesn't in times where the boat may be better suited for a sawz-all than a listing in Yachtworld.

And, BTW, even used Hobies need to carefully inspected. Something goes wrong on one of those and you could get hurt.


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

TJC45 said:


> As i said i didn't "go along." Why would I? The boat had a glaring problem.


Huh!?! In your earlier posting you said that you paid for the survey. You said that it was the surveyor who told you the boat was junk. Now you're saying that you didn't?

Or did you misunderstand me? When I said that you decided to go along, it was with the brokers suggestion that you should get a survey done to tell you how bad the problem was.

Actually, never mind. Either way, the discussion is just getting silly. The process is not backwards, you can do your own inspection and get questions answered before anyone expects you to make an offer. There is no legal requirement for a full disclosure, but it's the same as buying a car in that regard. No one expects you to "bid blind" and frankly it is a bit absurd to even suggest that they do.

The truth is that it sounds to me like you goofed, paid for a survey that you shouldn't have, and now you're trying desperately to somehow rationalize it to yourself by saying that you were just doing what all boat buyers do, even though that does not appear to be the case.

But whatever.


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## joebeach (Aug 16, 2011)

denverd0n said:


> .... Either way, the discussion is just getting silly. The process is not backwards, you can do your own inspection and get questions answered before anyone expects you to make an offer. There is no legal requirement for a full disclosure, but it's the same as buying a car in that regard. No one expects you to "bid blind" and frankly it is a bit absurd to even suggest that they do....


Agreed. The basic common law rule of the marketplace in the US (and AFAIK any country whose legal system derives from English law) is, and has always been, caveat emptor, or buyer beware. As such, the seller has no disclosure obligation whatsoever. None. It is entirely up to a buyer to make any inspections and investigations, directly or via agents, that s/he believes wise before agreeing to buy from and to pay a seller.

Now it's also true that in the past 40 years or so, this common law rule has been changed, on an ad-hoc basis, typically by statute or regulation at the federal level and in many states, to protect ordinary consumers when buying necessities or similar common items - but the coverage of these ad-hoc legal changes is variable and patchwork. For example, there are (after the fact) lemon laws for automobiles, warranty disclaimer limitation laws for manufactured household goods, and many required up-front disclosures for residential real estate. But all these consumer protection laws remain limited exceptions to the otherwise prevailing, ancient, general rule of trade.

If there is a theme to those ad-hoc legal exceptions, it has been to regulate the sale of ordinary everyday items that ordinary people use regularly as an essential part of living an ordinary, modern, urban or suburban life.

To date, boats and boating are not considered as such, but rather as luxuries, or at as least unessential, recreational things. So the common rule of trade still applies.

Whether the law for boat transactions should be different is another question (and if so, this is hardly the forum to effect legal changes). Regardless, the law today is what it is.

Some people are honest, some are incompetent, some are lazy, some are one or more or none of these, and it's up to potential buyers to size up sellers and to make best use of their time and money. If you feel (or think) that a seller is not a stand up person, often the best course is simply to go elsewhere. If the goods on offer are tempting enough to continue on anyway, then for boat purchases a survey is a prudent expense - it's the buyer's best insurance against the buyer's unknowns (whether the seller knows of them or not).

It seems to me that you (or the OP) decided to go for the insurance (wise) but now are upset about having paid the premium (surveyor's fee). That was the buyer's choice. S/he could have walked away for nothing, and didn't. Man up, and accept that's the way it is.

Hindsight is 20/20, and maybe looking back that wasn't the optimal choice. Well, that wasn't the first nor will it be the last time you (or me, the OP, or any of us) decide to spend a little time or money to avoid a possibly bigger headache. It seems that in the bigger picture, all ended well. Smile!


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## TJC45 (Jul 10, 2013)

denverd0n said:


> Huh!?! In your earlier posting you said that you paid for the survey. You said that it was the surveyor who told you the boat was junk. Now you're saying that you didn't?
> 
> Or did you misunderstand me? When I said that you decided to go along, it was with the brokers suggestion that you should get a survey done to tell you how bad the problem was.
> 
> ...


What can I say, reading comprehension counts. I posted, i believe more than once, that i walked before making an offer. The boat had an obvious structural issue with the distorted roof that also led to interior bulkheads pulling away from their tabbing, and doors not closing right. I could see that without a survey. Thus my own conclusion that the boat was sawz-all candidate. The damage i could see was going to run to five figures to fix.

my issue is only with the backwards process that had a broker refusing to talk about these issues and suggesting that i make an offer and pay for a survey.

Agree - we've beaten it to death. And truth is, I've tried to be polite here through your condesending comments. But enough is enough.


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## tidewaterv (Jul 18, 2013)

you may be limiting yourself , other good boats....some custom c&cs,custom built s&s designs do the job .....seakindly fast safe & dont need a lot of rebuild..built right in beginng...done some offshore & have been very happy with them.seattle &vancouver island occasionaly have these boats come to market....trying to get straight answers from broker questionable...they just want to sell get commission &you go away..if still looking let me know & i will keep eyes open.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

TJC45 said:


> Smack, i agree that noone knows everything and that even the most competent surveyor could miss some things or under estimate the cost to repair. Not at issue. Not what I'm talking about.
> 
> I'm talking about the order of business. In the boat buying world it is offer - disclosure. It should be disclosure - offer. How can you bid on something without knowing it's true condition?.


In my case of buying my Hunter it was disclosure - offer. I went down and spent a couple of hours on her, checking out everything I possibly could. I found a lot of things that I had questions about. I sent the broker and owner that list, plus a list of many more that would pinpoint potential problems. Their answers to all those questions (about 20 of them) was disclosure prior to offer.

I then made the offer and entered into a contract that was contingent of survey, that stated that the offer was up for renegotiation if deficiencies were found in the survey. They were - and those let me push the purchase price lower than my already low-ball offer. I pushed until the broker got very nervous.

Now, yes, had the owner balked and walked - I would have eaten the costs at that point. But he didn't and we closed the deal and are still in touch. He'll be sailing with me soon. I got a great deal - he got out from under the boat. And I was very satisfied with the disclosure prior to my offer.

I think the system works pretty well.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

smackdaddy said:


> And there were other problems no one, not even the surveyor could catch (based on how typical "non-invasive" surveys are done). So it's all going to cost me a fair amount more than I'd planned for. C'est un bateau!


What did the survey miss?


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## TJC45 (Jul 10, 2013)

smackdaddy said:


> In my case of buying my Hunter it was disclosure - offer. I went down and spent a couple of hours on her, checking out everything I possibly could. I found a lot of things that I had questions about. I sent the broker and owner that list, plus a list of many more that would pinpoint potential problems. Their answers to all those questions (about 20 of them) was disclosure prior to offer.
> 
> I then made the offer and entered into a contract that was contingent of survey, that stated that the offer was up for renegotiation if deficiencies were found in the survey. They were - and those let me push the purchase price lower than my already low-ball offer. I pushed until the broker got very nervous.
> 
> ...


You and I would get along! This is exactly the way I do it. Check it out, ask questions, make a go - no go decision based on those answers.

That said, i was and am amazed at the number of brokers who answer my questions with 'Make an offer and get a survey." That's the part I have the issue with. Without the answers to those intial questions i'm not sure i want to make an offer. Disclosure - offer

BTW, i went on the blog and chked out the pixs of your boat. You did well!!! That puppy is gorgeous!!!!

Nicely done!


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

davidpm said:


> What did the survey miss?


One big one was a leak in the water tank. There was no indication of leakage during the survey. However, when I filled it to capacity, it started leaking like a sieve. So I've got to figure that one out. I pulled the cover in the v-berth and started looking around yesterday. We'll see.

In my case, and I think it's pretty typical in surveys, it was "non-invasive". In other words he didn't dig into nooks and crannies.

Here's the wording from the contract:



> Inspections are conducted without any mechanical removals of any kind by the surveyor. Mechanical removals include anything that require tools, destruction and/or heavy lifting to make ready, for example tacked carpeting, fastened access covers, anchor chain or large tool boxes. Any inaccessible areas needing entry are to be made ready by the owner or the owner's representative.


I was there during the survey and shadowed him - which he liked. He did a very good job. It was definitely worth the money.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

"One big one was a leak in the water tank."

50 cents worth of bondo will probably fix it just fine...


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## CheckedOutRob (Nov 3, 2012)

TJC45 said:


> To my point, it makes no sense to have to make offers in the blind, and then pay someone to tell you you need to walk away from this one. The non disclosure on the part of sellers/brokers, IMO, borders on fraudulent behavior. Instead of telling you what they already know, they tell you to figure it out for yourself. There should be disclosure up front. With that disclosure an informed buying decision can be made.


-EXACTLY MY POINT! Although I do not think anyone makes offers blind ie. I do a personal inspection before making the offer and writing the deposit check (escrow) to the broker. But the issue that is the nature of the beast is that the seller and/or the broker are hoping I am a dumb **** who will not hire the sharpest surveyor outfit on the west coast (REISNER, McEWEN & HARRIS) which I did. Absolute professionals and they spent an entire long day on the survey. What they found was obviously known by the owner. Keel cracked, keel to hull joint delamination, rudder fin cracked, main bulkhead detached from hull, hull distortion. It's known by the owner because the boat was on the hard for the last 6 mos. And get this -the owner is a surveyor!!! That's why I'm so pissed at this whole process. The owner was praying I would f-up and buy the boat. That's pretty much fraud. And I'm out $2000 because of travel expenses and survey on this one.
I felt I had a relationship of trust with my broker. Did my broker just not do their due diligence? Had they at least looked they would have seen the items listed as brand new in the listing text were actually original to the boat and in bad shape. Jeez, I wonder if they will change the language of the listing on Yachtworld. I really doubt it.


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## CheckedOutRob (Nov 3, 2012)

Thanks. This thread has become invaluable to my boat buying process. And yes, my broker said "make an offer and get a survey". I was really happy to finally see a really nice boat that met my criteria -I had only seen dogs up to this point. 
I don't know why my brain did not kick in at that point and make me delve into the details of further questions and answers. I thought "that's how it's done" because that is how my broker presented it. My broker is a "buyers broker" recommended personally to me by someone with my vested interest. But in the end I guess they are still a broker.


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## arvicola-amphibius (Apr 14, 2012)

I have owned more boats than cars. Some bought privately and some via a broker.
When dealing with an unknown broker, I tell them straight up how much I will spend and warn them that if I find any undisclosed defect or if the boat stinks, I will walk away and not deal with them ever again. I do my own preliminary survey, which is based on experience and a general 'feel' for how clean and tidy the boat is.
As a result of this, I bought four (including my current boat) and sold my last three boats through the one broker. Sadly she passed away a few years ago, but she was honest and never wasted my time on any junk. Further, if in her opinion a boat was unsafe, she would not market it and if it was daggy she would give the seller a reality check on likely market value. So not all brokers are scumbags.

When looking around for good boats, it pays to concentrate on areas where real sailors sail; where the weather is not always kind but they go out anyway. e.g. Tasmania in Australia has more really fine boats per capita than anywhere else locally and I suspect that the same could be said in the USA for areas like Maine. The boats will often be properly-equipped, more seaworthy and better maintained than the marina queens found in warmer climes.


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## CheckedOutRob (Nov 3, 2012)

Wow. I wish I had read my own thread as OP (time travel) before moving on the expensive evaluation of these boats. What I've taken away from this is it's critically important to press the owner/broker to respond in good faith to the potential buyers (me) questions. Any waffling/deflection would indicate a "walk-away" or a "Deniro" moment where you hold their head underwater in a toilet until the truth comes out. I think my broker is afraid of me now....


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

smackdaddy said:


> One big one was a leak in the water tank. There was no indication of leakage during the survey.


That's off you would think it would be more likely to leak from the bottom than from the top.
Unless it is leaking from the bottom because of the extra weight.

Be sure to tell us when you find out what it is.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

davidpm said:


> That's off you would think it would be more likely to leak from the bottom than from the top.
> Unless it is leaking from the bottom because of the extra weight.
> 
> Be sure to tell us when you find out what it is.


Yeah - it's weird. At first I thought it was coming from the top of the tank. But it kept on for a couple of hours - so I drained it more than half way and it stopped.

It's a 100 gallon alum tank - so I hope it's just a fitting and not pitted through.


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