# Force 10 Diesel Cabin Heater



## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

My boat came with a Froce 10 diesel unit; it was non-op when I purchased the boat because the pressure tank looked like it was in need of replacement. I got a new tank last weekend and would like to get it running soon. I don't have any owner's instructions for the heater so if someone out there has the owner's manual could you repost or email me a copy?

I have some specific questions that would be helpful on getting it running.

How is the best way to plumb it? The old pressure tank had a shutoff valve, was plumbed to the heater with a rubber hose. The fitting on the unit is a hose-barb. The new diesel tank has a 1/4" compression fitting; indicating that it should be plumbed in copper tubing to the heater.

What fuel do you use and how do you refill? I assume that you need to either plumb something off of the main diesel tank and then pump it in via 1/4" tubing or have a separate filler hose that you attach to a funnel?

What is the best fuel to use? The tank indicates that it can use either diesel of kerosene; I'd assume that kerosene is a cleaner burning fuel. If I use diesel do I need to be concerned with algae growth in the pressure tank? What about bio-diesel?

When lighting; how do you prime it by burning alcohol? Tank says to use alcohol to prime the burner; but I don't know how and it seems like a potentially dangerous operation. Do you carefully pour some alcohol in the pan beneath the burner and light it? Seems like a syringe dedicated to doing this would be a good way to "pour" some alcohol onto the pan.

How hot does the exhaust get? The charlie-noble is a small deck mount; PO had a teak riser and between the stainless cap a layer of heat-resistant material (looked like a fire heat resistant material). I fab'd a new riser out of seaboard; but don't know if it needs heat protection on the ID or if the exhaust is cool enough to not worry about it. The exhaust tube is 1" and the ID of the hole through the deck and the plastic is 2".

Thanks for any info...


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## artbyjody (Jan 4, 2008)

http://www.sigmarine.com/support.htm has a list of manuals - while not Force 10 - it goes through the basics of the questions you asked and may be of some value


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

These early Force 10 heaters are, I believe, non-vented heaters that tend to put a lot of moisture into the cabin, and may allow the products of combustion to collect there as well. The open burner design tends to draw heat up the flue making the heater less efficient. I've had experiences with a kerosene version that stank badly and actually made me nervous while below with the hatches closed. These heaters also use cabin air to support combustion.

Preheatng this type of burner wtih alchohol is also a recipe for hard-to-see flare-ups and fumes and bad burner behaviour if the preheat is unsufficient.

There are better vented heaters with dual flues and sealed combustion chambers - much safer and more efficient.

I'm sure you don't want to hear this since you already replaced the tank. But Dickenson makes a nice safe heater that uses propane and is not outrageously expensive (around $600-750 complete w/flue and charlie noble depending on size) This heater draws combustion air from outside and vents all products of combustion safely too. 

If you already use propane in the galley or for a BBQ this type of heater may make sense for you. It wouuld fit in the same area as your current heater.


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

Guys-

I thank you for your replies; but what I'm looking for is some specific info about this unit. If anyone out there owns or has owned/used a Force 10 Diesel cabin heater; please put a post here or send me a PM with some info.

I don't want to debate pros/cons etc; It's what I've got and I don't know if it works properly or what to look for or how to adjust it if it does not. If I can get it working properly with the help of someone here; that would be great. If I can't get it working I will save the tank for use with another heater or put it back up on CL for the $50 I paid for it. I will look at the Sigmarine manual but the design is quite different so it appears that most of the operation instructions will be different from my heater.

If you smell or have products of combustion entering the cabin it is not running/venting properly; and that's the first sign of a problem. I am going to be VERY careful with it's use; it definitely will only be used to take the chill out of the air and never used while sleeping, or unattended. The boat will be well vented in addition (and have CO detector); I know venting conflicts with heating efficiency but hey oxygen is more important than warmth. We use the non-vented LPG stove and vent the cabin; it warms the place up and we don't have exceedingly low oxygen levels.

I have an LPG stove; but I'm even more afraid of it because of the possibility of a leak which would put LPG into the boat. We religously switch off the solenoid and close the valve at the deck mounted tank when it is not in use.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Keel...have you tried here or calling them?
http://www.force10.com/faqs.html


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

I looked through the website Cam and it appears that they only market ranges and cooktops now? Last year's WM catalog only showed the Force 10 Propane heater; now there is no listings for Force 10 heaters.

I'll send an email to Force 10 tonight; and give them a call tomorrow since they have an 800...


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## drewc (Oct 22, 2007)

I've got a force 10 diesel heater on my 29' sloop. I installed it myself, so i should be able to answer most, if not all, of your questions.

> How is the best way to plumb it?

I have mine plumbed using the same 1/4" marine rubber fuel hose that feeds my engine, but i do not feed the heater from the same tank .. i have another 40lt tank specifically for the heater. I don't use a pump of any kind - i prefer a gravity feed. This does mean that on extreme heels i can lose the heat, and sometimes air gets in the lines and i have to either prime the syphon (mmm tasty) or bleed the air through the filter or by blowing through the hose to force air into the tank. This last step also creates a little bit of pressure in the system. 

So, i don't have any hose clamps on the heaters fittings, so i can pull them off and check if the fuel is flowing, and take steps if it isn't.

> What is the best fuel to use?

We run our engine on 100% bio-diesel. For the heater, in the dead of winter we like to mix a little petroleum diesel as it burns hotter and doesn't coagulate. I have never tried kerosene, but i suspect it would be easier to light, if anything .

> When lighting; how do you prime it by burning alcohol?

You pour about 1oz of something flammable (Alcohol or camp fuel work well, gasoline will do in a pinch) down there. Never (well, use caution) do this when the unit is hot, as it will explode a bit and scare the hell out of you, if not injure and maim. Do not pour from the bottle, but rather a small container you keep specifically for this purpose. When you're poured, wipe the container with a tissue or some tp. You're going to light this tissue and quickly toss it inside.

Let it burn for 10 minutes until things are nice and hot, then turn the fuel on about 1/3 of full until the flame goes very yellow. Once it's all yellow and still burning, you're good to go. Crank it up and enjoy.

Be careful not to flood the thing with liquid fuel .. you want to be burning the vapours only. It's also important to keep the little hole in the center clear of soot and debris.

> How hot does the exhaust get?

Hot as hell, especially if there's a decent blow out. I've seen a full 1.5 ft of the exhaust glowing red. That said, the deck vent stays cool enough to touch most of the time. I've noticed that the deck area around the chimney has begun to delaminate a little, and i suspect it's due to the heat. 

If you've got any more questions, i've gotten to know this little unit quite well over this last winter.

Cheers, 

drewc


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

Thank You Drew!!

I am running 60% Bio-Diesel; so it sounds like any combo of bio will work on the heater also? Is it OK to use algae preventer in the fuel that goes into the heater? If it is I will plumb a line from the exit of the Racor filter over to the heater's tank. That way I can refill without any fuel spillage and keep the tank in a location that is not near the heater. It sounds like I will need to install a guard around the exhaust pipe to prevent hands from getting burned on it.

How do you control the flow of fuel to the heater? There is a small hex fitting beneath the burner; is that the needle valve or do you need a needle valve in-line from the tank? 

When you de-pressurize the tank you just bleed it from the tank valve? How do you vent the vapours and is this an explosion concern if there is a source of flame? I don't like the idea of venting it to the cabin when I shut it down; but the instructions on the tank say to release the pressure when not in use. Do you do this?

Thanks Again!


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

> I have mine plumbed using the same 1/4" marine rubber fuel hose that feeds my engine, but i do not feed the heater from the same tank .. i have another 40lt tank specifically for the heater. I don't use a pump of any kind - i prefer a gravity feed. This does mean that on extreme heels i can lose the heat, and sometimes air gets in the lines and i have to either prime the syphon (mmm tasty) or bleed the air through the filter or by blowing through the hose to force air into the tank. This last step also creates a little bit of pressure in the system.
> 
> So, i don't have any hose clamps on the heaters fittings, so i can pull them off and check if the fuel is flowing, and take steps if it isn't.


Wait... I have a concern about this. You are gravity feeding liquid diesel to your heater? It seems that you would want vapours only going to the heater; but then maybe I don't understand how these units operate. Is the pressure tank designed to feed liquid diesel or diesel vapour to the heater? Maybe it's made for liquid feed; the person that sold me the tank also threw in some diesel pumps that he had for his Dickinson. He said that he was going to switch to the tank because the pumps were just too failure prone. He said they were not inexpensive; but they did not last very long either.


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## drewc (Oct 22, 2007)

KeelHaulin said:


> Wait... I have a concern about this. You are gravity feeding liquid diesel to your heater? It seems that you would want vapours only going to the heater; but then maybe I don't understand how these units operate. Is the pressure tank designed to feed liquid diesel or diesel vapour to the heater? Maybe it's made for liquid feed; the person that sold me the tank also threw in some diesel pumps that he had for his Dickinson. He said that he was going to switch to the tank because the pumps were just too failure prone. He said they were not inexpensive; but they did not last very long either.


Yes, liquid diesel must get as far as the regulator. Diesel fumes (especially bio-diesel) are not in the least bit flammable until things get very hot. The liquid diesel enters the burner apparatus through a regulator which ensures that the amount of diesel liquid that enters the stove itself is small enough that it will be immediately vaporised by the heat, and it is those 'vapours' that burn. This is unlike LPG or gasoline which are very flammable. Diesel is more like vegetable oil than it is like gasoline... it requires a lot of heat to get it burning at all.

I'm drewc _at_ tech _dot_ coop if you'd like to mail me, i check my email more oftehn than i check sailnet .


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## drewc (Oct 22, 2007)

KeelHaulin said:


> I am running 60% Bio-Diesel; so it sounds like any combo of bio will work on the heater also?


It should indeed. Right now we mix about 10% petroleum diesel in our heater tank, but i see no reason why b100 wouldn't work as well.



KeelHaulin said:


> Is it OK to use algae preventer in the fuel that goes into the heater? If it is I will plumb a line from the exit of the Racor filter over to the heater's tank. That way I can refill without any fuel spillage and keep the tank in a location that is not near the heater.


I can't see any reason why not. I don't use anything of the sort really, but i only carry about 40lt of fuel in the main tank, and i've never had a problem with algae.



KeelHaulin said:


> It sounds like I will need to install a guard around the exhaust pipe to prevent hands from getting burned on it.


That's a good idea... on my list of things to do. I've leaned on it once or twice and was quite unhappy afterwards .



KeelHaulin said:


> How do you control the flow of fuel to the heater? There is a small hex fitting beneath the burner; is that the needle valve or do you need a needle valve in-line from the tank?


My force10 has a little regulator unit where the fuel comes in. It's got a knob with the hex nut in the middle. The hex nut is used to adjust the fuel/air mixture, and the knob the flow of fuel. If your unit does not come with this little device, i beleive you can buy them aftermarket, and i recommend it.



KeelHaulin said:


> When you de-pressurize the tank you just bleed it from the tank valve? How do you vent the vapours and is this an explosion concern if there is a source of flame? I don't like the idea of venting it to the cabin when I shut it down; but the instructions on the tank say to release the pressure when not in use. Do you do this?


I don't have a pressure tank really, so i can't give you any good advice here. I try to keep all the pressure out of the system (i'd rather have it stove go out than not go out), and every couple uses i open the tank to equalize the pressure that has built up.

I wouldn't worry too much about the diesel fumes, because again they are not really all that flammable when things are cool. That said, i don't like the idea of venting into the cabin either... but i do think the system should be vented after use.. my stove was lit (i had thought it out, and turned off the regulator) for a week once without my knowing as the pressure was high... i was not on the boat. That could have been an expensive lesson.


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

Great... I think I have enough information to set it up and test it. I decided to remove the burner element from the heater/boat. I can set it up at my workbench and make sure it is operating properly before I install it on the boat. It will be easier to put out if there is a flare up or I acidentally set fire to something etc.

Looks like everything could use a good cleaning and the knob for flow that you mention is not there; must have been broken off. The stem is a little bent from whatever broke the knob but it will turn if I use a pair of pliers. I will have to find a replacement for the knob. The stem only turns about 90deg; is that correct or is it sticking?


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## drewc (Oct 22, 2007)

KeelHaulin said:


> The stem is a little bent from whatever broke the knob but it will turn if I use a pair of pliers. I will have to find a replacement for the knob. The stem only turns about 90deg; is that correct or is it sticking?


Mine will turn through 360deg, but i've seen a few different regulator models so this may not be indicative of something being broken.


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## bwindrope (Feb 25, 2007)

*Biodiesel doesn't work*

I'm sorry if I didn't read every word but I think this thread is getting onto the subject of burning biodiesel in a Force 10. I have a Force 10 diesel heater just like the one in question. I have had to become an expert in its repair and maintenance. I am profoundly bummed that they are no longer manufactured and you can't get parts anymore really. I've been told that by Fisheries Supply here in Seattle.

Anyway, my heater works absolutely great! I have a digital CO detector onboard and it never budges above a reading of "0". My alcohol stove causes condensation and CO to raise a little, but not the heater.

Anyway, I burn biodiesel in my Universal M40, about a 75% mixture give or take. I tried to burn B99 in my Force 10 and let me tell you, definitively, it does not work. I primed the hell out of it, with several cup fulls of alcohol, and the biodiesel just does not get hot enough to not smoke like crazy. Let me tell you, I filled my cabin with smoke several times trying to get biodiesel to work. Then I tried B20 and it was better but still smoky and obnoxious. Finally, I bought good stove Kerosene, and she burns clean, clear, and hot. No soot, no smoke, and no problems.

I don't have, or want, propane on my boat (Boom), and so hope to keep this stove going for a long time.

My two cents.


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## artbyjody (Jan 4, 2008)

BW: good info on the attempting to use bio for heating.... I always thought it would may be doable but in engines they operate under higher pressure and temp than one of those stoves - so had my doubts... thanks for the input....


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

Thanks... It sounds like kerosene is the way to go since my diesel is appx 66% biodiesel. That changes everything in terms of how I will plumb/fill the pressure tank.


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## bwindrope (Feb 25, 2007)

*Sure wish Biodiesel worked, but...*

Yeah, I'm sure we all share the same desire for biodiesel to work and I sure wish it did. For mechanical and environmental and political reasons, I run biodiesel in Aeolus and own a wonderful 1978 Mercedes 300D with a cast iron engine and run B99 in her. I gave the biodiesel a good long try on Aeolus and just had to conclude it doesn't work. I even disassembled everything and made sure the fuel port was clean and all that. Even straight dino diesel doesn't work nearly as well as Kerosene as far as a clean burn. I wish it weren't so...

Someone had mentioned that they thought the Force 10 did not heat very well. They may be right relative to other units, but although I'm no expert, not having owned one of the new propane units, I have been very happy with the heat output of my Force 10. Our 32 foot pilothouse is pretty roomy inside, and she warms right up to a comfortable take-off-the-fleece temperature even here in our damp 38 degree temperatures.

We have a nice little fan mounted above the unit on the bulkhead and then really spreads the heat out well.

Hallelujah for the end of winter...and arrival of spring!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Force 10 Diesel Heater*

Hi there,i have a Force 10 diesel heater installed on my Fisher 25 "Cathy.B" and i use a good grade of diesel,and i have never had any problems due to me using the higher grade.my heater is fed from a pressurized tank (connected to the burner assembly via 1/4" copper pipe ) which feeds a constant pressure which i usually pump up to between 10 and 20 psi or 3/4 to 1 1/2 atm at this pressure it provides a nice size of flame.the secret to getting the heater to work properly is to make sure the burner is pre-heated up i use methylated spirit,once heated up sufficiently the control knob is opened up and the diesel enters the pre heated burner assembly the diesel actually turns from its liquid form into a gas form and produces a nice blue flame"as if it were burning propane, I do have an owners manual for the heater and would easely oblige you with a copy if you were to give me an e-mail address


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

KH,

I somehow missed this thread way back when you posted it.

Sorry if this has been mentioned, but I just thought I'd relay my understanding that the Force 10 cabin heaters were picked-up by Sigma Marine, in case you could obtain some info from them:

Welcome to SigMarine.com - Marine Heaters & Stoves - Our Product Line

EDIT: Oops never mind, Art got the info to you already...


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## kfistick (Jan 13, 2009)

Hello everyone! 

I have a Force 10 desiel heater that I have been trying to get to work, but I think that I am missing the inner cap. The pressurized stream just shoots straight up in to the heater body cuasing horrible soot and flames. 

Does any one have a picture and demensions of the inte inner burner cap? And pictures of the burner. Thanks for the help. 

Kirk in Annapolis


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## lancelot9898 (Dec 30, 2008)

*Propane Force 10*

Years ago I installed a Force 10 diesel heater on the boat with a pressurized tank. I remember it being difficult to light requiring an alcohol pre heat, but the real thing that I did not like was the resultant smell of diesel. I used it for a few years before switching to propane. At the time the Force 10 people had a conversion burner that was simple to install in the heater and to this day it works great. I ran a line from the vented propane tanks used for the cooking stove to the Force 10 heater and got rid of the little diesel tank. The 1 inch exhaust line of the heater never did get cherry hot as I think someone else here experienced, but it does keep the cabin fairly warm in 20 degree weather. I do use a pella fan above the heater to help distrubute the heat.


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## Mercator2 (Jan 18, 2009)

bwindrope said:


> I'm sorry if I didn't read every word but I think this thread is getting onto the subject of burning biodiesel in a Force 10. I have a Force 10 diesel heater just like the one in question. I have had to become an expert in its repair and maintenance. I am profoundly bummed that they are no longer manufactured and you can't get parts anymore really. I've been told that by Fisheries Supply here in Seattle.
> 
> Anyway, my heater works absolutely great! I have a digital CO detector onboard and it never budges above a reading of "0". My alcohol stove causes condensation and CO to raise a little, but not the heater.
> 
> ...


To Aeolus Gulf 32 Friday Harbor.
I have a Mercator 30 in Deer Harbor. The boat is equipped with a Force Ten Kerosene cabin heater which works like a charm, but one of the burner tubes has a hair crack in it resulting in a small blow out flame. I have tried to find a replacement burner, but no luck thus far. Any ideas? Eileen B. Deer Harbor


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## elgatosunrise (Aug 31, 2007)

*will the small brass force 10 diesel tank last through the night?*



ALEXBIR said:


> Hi there,i have a Force 10 diesel heater installed on my Fisher 25 "Cathy.B" and i use a good grade of diesel,and i have never had any problems due to me using the higher grade.my heater is fed from a pressurized tank (connected to the burner assembly via 1/4" copper pipe ) which feeds a constant pressure which i usually pump up to between 10 and 20 psi or 3/4 to 1 1/2 atm at this pressure it provides a nice size of flame.the secret to getting the heater to work properly is to make sure the burner is pre-heated up i use methylated spirit,once heated up sufficiently the control knob is opened up and the diesel enters the pre heated burner assembly the diesel actually turns from its liquid form into a gas form and produces a nice blue flame"as if it were burning propane, I do have an owners manual for the heater and would easely oblige you with a copy if you were to give me an e-mail address


Hello Alexbir,

I saw your post on the heater talk last year. I am about to buy a Force 10 that seems to be similar to what you are describing. It is fed by a fairly small brass tank - maybe half a gallon (2 litres) and it is pressurized with a hand pump.

Will this keep going through the night?
Will that volume of diesel/kersosene last 6-7 hours? How many times will the hand pump need to be re-pressurized through the night?

thanks
Kevin


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