# Rocna Anchor



## TSOJOURNER

Is there a US source for this anchor? Also, I'd like some feedback from anyone who has practical experience with this anchor. Currently use a Delta, but looking for more hold. We'll be at the Annapolis show in a few weeks. Thanks.


----------



## camaraderie

kava...I think they only have a Canadian distributor. Craig from Rocna and Alain from Spade are regulars on the SSCA.org bulletin board. You might try there for more info or if they'll have any boat show presence. I hear great things about both anchors though have been quite happy with my Delta and hate the CQR.


----------



## Vasco

Kavakava,

Have you seen the Manson Supreme, looks and performs much like the Ronca but quite a lot cheaper as they have a US distributer. Try www.azuremarine.com/. I'm getting one to replace an old CQR.


----------



## Maine Sail

*I use a Manson Supreme...*

And love, love love it. Although it's a knock off of the Rocna it performs very similarly. The Sail Magazine anchor test results were just published and confirm what I've been saying on this and other boards for quite a while now. The Rocna & Manson are excellent performers.

The "tried and true" anchors most sailors use are not the king pins they once were. These tests are about the most scientific and real world I've seen done to date. At least they used anchors of similar size unlike the Practical Sailor tests. My one gripe is I wish they had given more info on 180 degree re-sets and tested in soft mud. I'm a little concerned, by the test results, that some folks will run out and buy a Fortress as a primary and have tide/wind re-set issues like I have with mine. I only use my Fortress as a, direct line pull, stern anchor where no "shifts" from tide or wind can occur. The authors/testers had many debates about the rather shocking test results and this quote kind of sums it up.

"Having several anchors with established reputations fail to set sparked many hours of debate. We questioned our methodology and tried to determine what could be done to insure that all anchors could at least return some results apart from "did not set"."

I stopped using my CQR a longtime ago because of terrible setting performance and a few dragging incidents. I also stopped using my Bruce for similar reasons. My observations, in Maine, NH, MA and Carib anchorages is that most folks never really bother to set an anchor properly. If they don't set properly they would not know that their trusty CQR is lying on its side only partially burried, at best, and acting like a rock on a rope. In normal benign summer conditions the chain and the weight of the anchor (rock on a rope) probably hold most boats and most people are clueless until a squal or 20+ knot winds pipe up. I someimes like to dive on anchors to observe the set and doing this is what caused me to stop using my CQR! On top of the poor performance it was the straw that broke the CQR's back for me.

We actually keep an anchor log and have been doing so for quite a while because we like to anchor whenever we can. I started this log after an incident where every boat in the anchorage, except us and one other, draged during a wind storm with winds of only 35-40 knots. We almost got taken out by a 70 foot Swan dragging its CQR. I was so angry the next morning that I wrote down what each boat was using for ground tackle as I watched as each boat weigh anchor and leave. I now keep track any boats that have dragged anchor around me. I log what anchor they used and to be as fair as possible if I saw them actually set the anchor or not.

I have done my own personal anchor testing and made videos of them setting on an inter tidal zone and my results are very similar to the Sail Magazine results. I have tested and own/owned the Bruce, CQR, Manson Supreme, Fortress, Spade (both Aluminum and Steel) and a Delta Fast Set. I chose the Manson Supreme as my clear winner with the Spade and Fortress as my back ups. The Manson Supreme, Rocna, Spade & Fortress were the clear winners in Sails tests, along with the Hydro Bubble which I don't own, and closely mirror my own very un-scientific results. I have sold my Fast Set, did not set as well as Spade, and my Bruce and CQR are on loan to friends who don't really anchor much and just needed a lunch hook hanging off the bow. My Spade A-80 (aluminum) sits in my garage because I had some real problems with getting it to penetrate a hard bottom. This is most likely due to its very light weight. The S-80 (identical size but in steel) performs much better and does set in tough bottoms. Theoretically the Spades should set identically but they don't??

The Fastset is a decent anchor compared to a CQR or Bruce and will hold well but according to the Sail tests it does not like anything less than a 5:1 scope where the Rocna and Manson Supreme don't mind a 3:1 at all.

I wish more people took anchoring & mooring as seriously as I do but they don't. Last season my boat sustained considerable damage because a boat broke free in a wind storm and dragged onto my boat due to poor mooring maintenance. I'm sure this clown has similar anchoring manners. Fortunately the damage was cosmetic only but the whole event set me back some serious pocket change with a 2% deductible.

My question is this. Why do people choose to use anchors that have been proven time and time again, in test after test, to be considerably less effective than other commercially available models? I know I bought a CQR because everyone else had one but I tested it myself and decided it was a less than robust anchor for my taste. Do others not actually put a product through the paces and just rely on mass appeal?????

I actually had a few salty types laugh at my "ugly new fangeled" anchor this summer and I found it to be quite idiotic. One guy actually told me of how he dragged into another boat last year in a "bad" wind storm. This as he laughed at my "ugly" anchor while I was washing he boat at the dock. I only wish I knew what anchor he was using for my log book..

I can't speak highly enough of the performance my Manson Supreme has given me compared to my other anchors and I'm sure the Rocna performs the same or better. I've never had an anchor set so definitively and immediately and it's just plain jarring. With this anchor, when you back down to set it, there is NO guessing if it set you KNOW it set.. It even bests my Spades by enough to notice a distinct difference. Hamilton Marine in Maine sells Manson Supremes and Rocna has a distributor in Canada..

These new style anchors really DO work but I'm sure, like the GPS, it will take some of the salty types to come around to them...


----------



## Craig Smith

kavakava said:


> Is there a US source for this anchor? Also, I'd like some feedback from anyone who has practical experience with this anchor. Currently use a Delta, but looking for more hold. We'll be at the Annapolis show in a few weeks. Thanks.


Kava, if you're going to be at the Annapolis show, you'll find Rocna. There will be a little demonstration model you can play with. Nothing very impressive I'm afraid, we're still working on North American distributors.

Last word: don't be fooled by copies...


----------



## camaraderie

Craig... while I frown on anyone knocking off another's patented design can you give any details on how Manson Supreme would "fool" anyone? Are there differences in construction or performance that you think are significant or should they be avoided simply because they are making $$ off of your proprietary work?


----------



## Craig Smith

camaraderie said:


> Craig... while I frown on anyone knocking off another's patented design can you give any details on how Manson Supreme would "fool" anyone? Are there differences in construction or performance that you think are significant or should they be avoided simply because they are making $$ off of your proprietary work?


Now who said I was talking about the Manson Supreme? 

There is a difference in price - any American buying a Rocna has two options, buy from us in NZ and pay horrendous freight costs, or buy from Vancouver at a higher retail price and - well, still pay horrendous freight costs. This we hope to rectify shortly. However there remains the "you get what you pay for" difference, and our USD recommended retail will still be "moderately priced", not "cheap"; we're not about making cheap rip-offs, we're not based in China, etc. However you will find us competitive with most other genuine brands, and especially competitive with the top stuff, like genuine CQRs and Spades.

When a copier sits down to make his copy, he has two options. One is to copy the anchor identically but take manufacturing short-cuts to save money (the only way he'll sell his copy is by making the retail price cheaper). Witness many Chinese made claws. The other is to "improve" it, but most "improvements" are done by idiots that don't fully understand the original product, certainly not like the original inventor did. Witness any number of CQR and recent Delta copies that are not as good as the originals. Or any with gimmicks like slotted shanks, floatation bubbles, etc.

There are certain things we refuse to compromise on. For example:

Since we don't have a three-dimensional tip (like a plow or the Spade, which have because of their lead inserts), we need to make sure the tip is very strong. We do this by creasing the blade, which is a more expensive process than rolling. The crease then runs the full length of the fluke and together with the solid steel provides as much strength as possible.

We don't laminate steel. Metal doesn't gain strength from lamination in the same way that other materials do, it's often just edge-welded so the space between the sheets is effectively hollow. In addition to a ridiculous lack of strength, this has massive other implications. For example the weld is usually ground off to make it look nice, and the laminate edges might not be properly chamfered before joining. Result: not much weld holding your fluke together. Or, maybe the galvanizing blows it apart. Or, it doesn't, and the anchor rusts from the inside out.

We form a proper concave shape by raising the heel of the fluke, so it is a two dimensional spoon, not a one dimensional upside-down plow.

We have a properly designed shank intended to fit on as many rollers as possible, and work well with regard to self launching and retrieval. A shank with a tall profile is a bad idea, since anchors frequently come up sideways or upside-down. The shank must be of such a shape that it can rotate while in the roller, and it needs to do it fairly quickly. If you look at plows and claws, their shanks are usually of quite a low profile - for a reason.

Our shank is high tensile steel. We don't destroy the metal's tensile strength by running a gas cutter up and down the inside of the shank.

Our tip-weight is 30% the weight of the anchor. That's more than a Delta and not bad for an anchor with no dedicated tip-weight (lead).

etc

And we know a whole bunch of stuff that other, ahem, designers don't, so they make mistakes.

All of which adds up to an anchor which apparently did better than a certain other anchor (supposed to be the same) in a certain recent independent test, and by the way said certain anchor was 10% larger than the Rocna.

Sorry if that sounds like an informercial, but, with no names, hopefully that should arm you with some knowledge with which to go comparison-shopping. Any more and it'd read like a list of instructions "how to fix my copy".


----------



## sanctuarysam

*now i'm really confused (this is nothing new)*

great..i have a cqr hanging from my bow, that as best i can tell is a heavy paperweight. now to complicate matters, i've been reading these threads and now am not sure what to replace my cqr with.
i sail on the chesapeake, keep my boat in a well protected marina, near mobjack bay and want something to occasionally drop or have on hand should something nastier than "ernesto" come screaming through should i need to move my boat. i also don't want to spend the night on anchor watch for fear some inferior anchor design will drag on me.
i saw the Rocna, Manson Supreme and then the Hydrobubble. now i am completely lost. all three of these anchors make the most design sense to me. now i'm looking to the venerable senior members here to make up my mind.
oh...1990 sabre 30 mkIII, draws 5'3" if this matters...
so, do i make the cqr a piece of "yard art" and get two new anchors..or make the cqr my back-up..oh..and although i understand you get what you pay for, i don't want to spend a ridiculous amount on a new hook.


----------



## sailingdog

The hydrobubble is junk IMHO, as anything that reduces the weight of the anchor in the water is going to reduce its effectiveness at digging in. 

I have a Rocna, and love it..but it is a bit expensive. I ordered mine from the guys in Canada. 

My main complaint on it is that it tends to bring up lots of the bottom with it...and it is a bear to break out. I'm adding a windlass and bow roller to my boat to make using my Rocna a lot more user friendly.  

I got the 15 kg Rocna, since I depend on it to hold the boat when I'm anchored out, and like the security it gives me, even if the current and wind shift. 

Skimping on ground tackle is pennywise and pound foolish IMHO, especially if you're on the hook in bad weather. Getting undersized or badly designed ground tackle is putting your boat at risk. Why carry two small anchors and have to deploy them both, when a slightly larger single anchor will hold you more securely and with fewer complications. 

If you have specific questions, let me know via PM.


----------



## Craig Smith

> The hydrobubble is junk IMHO, as anything that reduces the weight of the anchor in the water is going to reduce its effectiveness at digging in.


I am unsure what the displacement of the bubble itself is in relation to the rest of the anchor. In concept I agree with you sailingdog, although the emperical evidence would suggest it's not a terribly important factor - the HydroBubble did reasonably well in the SAIL testing (and that was hard sand). See the graph in the document linked to below.

Some clown on another board stated that this negative factor must get worse with increasing depth, as the floatation would increase, rendering the anchor useless in deep water  - now that's *not* right folks...

From Peter concerning the float: "I will make no harsh comment on this, save to point to possible issues concerning durability in the harsh conditions anchors are subjected to, and longevity if exposed to UV."

Peter has written a little something about the SAIL testing and also addresses copies and variations of genuine anchor types. We've put it online here. Comments welcome.


----------



## sailingdog

If the hydro bubble depends on the bubble to set properly, and the bubble is damaged, doesn't that tend to suggest the anchor won't set properly then.

If the anchor doesn't require the bubble to set properly, then it is just a useless gimmick to try and sell more anchors and increases the cost of the anchor without increasing the effectiveness of the anchor.

Either it is a poorly designed anchor with a possible vulnerability-as I can see if the anchor gets retrieved in rough conditions and rocky/coral terrain, the bubble could be damaged-or it is an anchor with an unnecessary marketing gimmick and somewhat questionable ethics and engineering. * In either case, I wouldn't want that type of company making something that I am depending on to keep me, my crew, and my boat safe. *


----------



## sanctuarysam

Craig,
thanks for posting the article. i found it helpful, even if some of the information was inaccurate (such as the pricing for your anchors).
now..how soon might we see a distributor in the US? i suspect the freight is almost as much as the anchor were i to order from nz or canada.
now on a related topic..is there a formula for determing desirable length of chain:rope.
it appears Rocna is the way to go..


----------



## sailingdog

The freight on mine wasn't too bad... I don't know how large an anchor you're looking at. I have 30' of 5/16" G4-high-test chain on mine, and can anchor in many locations with just a bit of rope in the water, but my boat draws considerably less water than many others...being a multihull.  

One rule for chain in a combination rode is that you should have about 1' of chain for every pound of anchor weight... that's roughly how I did mine...works well enough.


----------



## sanctuarysam

if i'm reading the rocna website correctly..i need a either a 10 or 15kg model for my 30' 9400lb boat. if this thing holds as wonderfully as all the hype and glowing recommendations, then i could probaly get away with the smaller of the two..at what point is bigger always better, especially if my 5'5" spouse is trying to wrestle this thing from the briny deep.
now..here is the ridiculous aspect of my my question..what exactly does the chain do for you..


----------



## btrayfors

Craig,

"Some clown on another board stated that this negative factor must get worse with increasing depth, as the floatation would increase, rendering the anchor useless in deep water - now that's not right folks..."

I KNOW this guy! Met him in a bar once. He's the same fellow that claimed building bridges higher was a waste of money, because it would be far cheaper just to dredge beneath the bridges to increase clearance )

Bill


----------



## sailingdog

Sam-

I'd go with the 15kg Rocna, rather than the 10kg. It will give you much more piece of mind, when you're anchored out and a gale or summer thunderstorm pops up with 50+ mph winds. 

I'd also recommend that you get a windlass installed, even if it is a manual windlass. Makes retrieval much easier on you and the boat. If not a windlass, then at least a good chain pawl. I am installing a Simpson Lawrence/Lewmar Anchorman manual windlass for that very reason. 

Bill- Unfortunately, it was some whack job on this forum that said that...


----------



## Craig Smith

sanctuarysam said:


> Craig,
> thanks for posting the article. i found it helpful, even if some of the information was inaccurate (such as the pricing for your anchors).
> now..how soon might we see a distributor in the US? i suspect the freight is almost as much as the anchor were i to order from nz or canada.
> now on a related topic..is there a formula for determing desirable length of chain:rope.
> it appears Rocna is the way to go..


Hi Sam - US distributor in the works, ask us for an update after the Annapolis show. But these things do take time.

Chain : rope - once you consider all the factors, you come away with the conclusion that 100% chain is "ideal" and chain the length of the boat is the absolute bare minimum. And you can compromise between those two extremes in any fashion you desire, according to the type of boating you do.

The advantages of chain to consider are:

Durable on the seabed, rocks, coral, other boats
Durable on your boat (no chafe)
Provides catenary to keep the pull on the anchor at a lower angle (this factor becomes more important the deeper the water)
Provides a certain amount of mass which equates to inertia, which helps prevent your boat "sailing" on the anchor
But of course it's heavy and doesn't absorb shock, so when choosing how much to carry, you can reduce the amount as much as possible until you don't want to "hurt" those advantages anymore, and make up the rest with rope. Make sense?

Re sizing: our recommendations are quite conservative, they're sort of based on Peter's attitude, which is formed from sailing around the world and visiting Antarctica and that sort of thing. It's a case of "don't oversize - we already did that for you".  As you say the 10 would probably be adequate for your boat, but consider that the boat may be heavier than the 9400lb displacement you mentioned - when is the last time you weighed it? If it is likely to be much over, you are in the domain of the 15.

BTW, anchors up to 15Kg / 33lbs we can ship anywhere in the world by regular airmail. Which is fairly economical and gets it to your door, none of this importing-by-freight lark which is required for the bigger ones. It's still not cheap - but not a deal breaker.


----------



## sanctuarysam

craig,
thanks so much for taking the time to provide the article and providing ground tackle '101' for me.
good point about weight..i suspect when you add the 50 gallons of water, 20 gallons of diesel and a 30 gallon holding tank...(and if my memory serves correctly, a gallon of water is over 8 lbs..hmmm), it all adds up quickly, not to mention 2 adults, electronics,etc.
so a 15 kg anchor it is. i'll check back after annapolis boat show.

thanks..


----------



## Joesaila

We did our 'first' cruise out of Hingham, Ma., around the Cape to Nantucket, M.V. and back via Woods Hole thru the canal [watch out for Easterly winds on the outgoing tide, whew!] Overnighted off Clarks Is. [learned not to anchor in less than 20'. The tide was 10' at past high mark and 3.4' at a 25 degree tilt at 4 AM!] My 35 CQR worked well but I am going to get the Rocna 15 as soon as its locally available. I like what I read about it and want the safety of a good anchor for my family. [as you all do too]


----------



## xort

halekai posted...
Last season my boat sustained considerable damage because a boat broke free in a wind storm and draged onto my boat due to poor mooring maintenance. I'm sure this clown has similar anchoring manners. Fortunately the damage was cosmetic only but the whole event set me back some serious pocket change with a 2% deductable

Thread drift...did you try to collect the out of pocket costs? If he dragged & you didn't, it should be a clear case of his neglegence.


----------



## JohnRPollard

Joesaila,

Great cruise you took. FYI, there's some deeper water on the northeast side of Clark's Island. At low tide, you can get there by going around the west side of the island and following the channel that crosses over the north side. At higher tides you can take a short cut through the channel between the east side of Clark's and Saquish Head. I believe the anchorage I refer to is locally known as the "Sheep's Pen" (I could be mistaken), and there usually are a few larger boats moored up there. It is a nice spot -- we sounded it in our sailing dinghy last summer at low tide and it remains plenty deep. Worth the extra bit of distance for a good night's sleep. - John


----------



## LWinters

*Rusty Anchor? Hot Dip it and save a bundle!*

So after Craig cleared up the confustion on lead inserts on CQR anchors (there aren't any) I ran my old anchors and chain to the hot dip place. These things came back looking like new. At 37 cents a pound I got a 60 lb CQR, 35 lb CRR, ~35 lb Fortress, and 300 ft of 3/8 BBB chain done for $204 USD. Replacement cost would have run close to $3,000.

Don't know why more people don't hot dip thier steel anchor gear. Before and after shot below of the big CQR.

http://bp3.blogger.com/_X3qhCTPsYAg/Rr3Ho9fJVXI/AAAAAAAAAI4/DF_ZMvZZ3hg/s1600-h/100_0831%5B1%5D

http://bp2.blogger.com/_X3qhCTPsYAg/Rr3HKtfJVWI/AAAAAAAAAIw/coC7YMWse_c/s1600-h/Ground+tackle+arrangement.jpg


----------



## Craig Smith

LWinters said:


> Don't know why more people don't hot dip thier steel anchor gear. Before and after shot below of the big CQR.


People do, frequently. In hard use in abrasive seabeds, the galvanizing on any anchor might be expected to last no more than three or four years.

But, when the consensus amongst those with experience is increasingly *like this*, perhaps a replacement of some sort would be in order regardless?

A CQR would look more the part with a bit of rust, in its role as garden ornament


----------



## Maine Sail

The CQR is a LAWN ornament!! It's reign of KING anchor is OVER! 

I have two genuine CQR's and can't even sell them for 1/4 the price they were when new. Perhaps it's because I refuse to sell them to anyone anchoring in the state of Maine or anywhere near me. My guess is that people really know & DON'T want the danger of owning a poor setting, holding & generally unreliable anchor when compared to today's new generation anchors. 

Damn it Rocna, Manson & Spade your anchors are too good now my CQR is relinquished to a glorified paper weight cause I certainly can't sell them.


----------



## jrd22

Halekai- I appreciate your testing and researching all of those anchors, and share your concern about which anchors others use and how they "set" them (especially when they are close to me). I see way too many 40' power boats with a 15lb danforth hanging off the bow, fortunately most of those never stray far from the marinas. From what I have read here and in the magazines I would probably try a Rocna if I were shopping for another anchor. The reason that I am not interested in another anchor is because I have had such excellent results over the last 14 years with my Bruce. We cruise in Washington and BC, and have anchored in every type of bottom there is here and have always had fast, positive sets and have never drug even in 30+ knots and repeated current direction changes. I set it with the engine just above idle in reverse, and after it is set I increase RPM up to about half throttle for long enough to determine that we aren't moving at all. We anchor all the time when we are out cruising except when it's necessary to stay in a slip, maybe 1 out of 5-6 days. Our boat is a 34' Northsea Pilothouse that displaces 13-14,000lbs when loaded and we use a 33lb Bruce with 35' of 3/8" chain and then 3/4" nylon rode. I normally use a scope of four or five (sometimes less if it is crowded and winds are predicted to be light) and usually anchor in 3-6 fathoms. If I had had problems setting or dragging I would have a collection of anchors like you do, and would continue searching until I found one that worked every time. But that is not the case, I'm continually impressed with it and even bought another (used) when I realized Bruce was no longer selling the small anchors anymore. I don't know how to account for the difference in results, I read every anchor test and I'm continually surprised that the Bruce doesn't rank higher in holding power based on my experience with it. I should mention that our anchor is an original Bruce, not a copy. I am not debating your statements about the Bruce, I'm sure your results were not satisfactory, it must be differences in the types of bottom. If I ever stray outside the NW Coast I'll probably be shopping for a Rocna, or maybe I'll just get one now as a backup in case I ever have a situation where the Bruce won't hold. Thanks again for your observations and experiences with the different anchors.


----------



## sailingdog

What I can't understand is how someone can buy a boat, spending thousands, or hundreds of thousands of dollars on it.... and not bother with investing in a good ground tackle setup. I see many 30-40' boats, both power and sail, that have woefully undersized and inadequate anchors on them. Also, many of these boats don't have properly sized cleats or mooring bitts to attach their anchor rode to, even if they do have a decent anchor. IMHO, good ground tackle is like a good but inexpensive insurance policy. You don't want to skimp on it... or size it for "nice weather", cause the times you're really going to need are, it isn't going to be "nice weather".


----------



## Brezzin

JRD- I think we can all agree that the anchor is simply a tool. The way we use it is probably more important to successful anchoring than the tool itself. It's for this reason that anchor testing is flawed from the get go. Kind of like a golfer buying an expensive driver hoping to increase the distance and accuracy of the drive. But at the end of the day they can't buy a swing. 

This past week I finally got a chance to use my Rocna 40. I must admit that I was a little startled at how fast it set. I kept having my wife back down hard a few times just to be sure. Granted the bottom was sand one time and mud the other but it set and set well. I was also shocked at the amount of bottom that came up with it. I needed a boat hook to push the muck off.


----------



## sailingdog

Brezzin said:


> This past week I finally got a chance to use my Rocna 40. I must admit that I was a little startled at how fast it set. I kept having my wife back down hard a few times just to be sure. Granted the bottom was sand one time and mud the other but it set and set well. I was also shocked at the amount of bottom that came up with it. I needed a boat hook to push the muck off.


Damn, a Rocna 40, it must bring up about 70 lbs. of mud with it... my Rocna 15 brings up about 30 lbs or so everytime I use it. Just curious as to what size boat you have to need a Rocna 40??


----------



## Brezzin

Hunter 49. She weighs in around 36,000 lbs wet. With a high freeboard and all the windage I decided to buy one size larger than recommended.


----------



## sailingdog

Yes, probably a good idea, and helps with getting a good night's sleep.  BTW, that's almost 10x what my boat displaces...  So, my Rocna 15 is probably a bit oversized...


----------



## sanctuarysam

sailingdog said:


> Yes, probably a good idea, and helps with getting a good night's sleep.  BTW, that's almost 10x what my boat displaces...  So, my Rocna 15 is probably a bit oversized...


so dog, would it be fair to say you are pleased w/ your Rocna?..i had forgotten all about this thread and wonder if Craig ever got a USA distibutor...


----------



## sailingdog

Yes, I am pretty happy with it... it does set remarkably fast... my only major complaint with it is that it does tend to bring up about 20-30 lbs. of mud, sand, weeds, etc with it every time... but that just gives me a good idea of how well it sets.


----------



## scottbr

Just to add another review on the Rocna. We bought our boat this year and I did a lot of research on anchors, chain and rode on several forums etc. I decided on the Rocna, 50 ft. of chain and 250 ft. of rode, after seeing good reviews and many reccomendations from forum users. We've anchored out in the Georgian Bay area several weekends and 2 separate weeks. I am impressed so far. 

I have set in heavy weeds twice, pulled up 5 ft. dia. ball each time. More than one occasion ended up doing a 180 deg. swing overnight with wind shift, and even did a 270 deg. swing on another, with 20 knot winds inbetween during the day. I set in clear water 15 ft. deep and could see the set pattern in the sand, the Rocna completely dug in within 2-3ft. On a couple of other sets in mud, the anchor was set so hard I had to cleat off and pull it out with the boat. 

So far I've been vary impressed and get a good nights sleep.


----------



## Brezzin

scottbr said:


> Just to add another review on the Rocna. We bought our boat this year and I did a lot of research on anchors, chain and rode on several forums etc. I decided on the Rocna, 50 ft. of chain and 250 ft. of rode, after seeing good reviews and many reccomendations from forum users. We've anchored out in the Georgian Bay area several weekends and 2 separate weeks. I am impressed so far.
> 
> I have set in heavy weeds twice, pulled up 5 ft. dia. ball each time. More than one occasion ended up doing a 180 deg. swing overnight with wind shift, and even did a 270 deg. swing on another, with 20 knot winds inbetween during the day. I set in clear water 15 ft. deep and could see the set pattern in the sand, the Rocna completely dug in within 2-3ft. On a couple of other sets in mud, the anchor was set so hard I had to cleat off and pull it out with the boat.
> 
> So far I've been vary impressed and get a good nights sleep.


Scott- Welcome to sailnet. What kind of boat do you have?


----------



## Brezzin

sanctuarysam said:


> so dog, would it be fair to say you are pleased w/ your Rocna?..i had forgotten all about this thread and wonder if Craig ever got a USA distibutor...


As off May this year, he did not. I got mine from the Canadian distributor.


----------



## scottbr

Thanks Dave, we bought a 2005 Hunter33 this spring, first boat and love it. I love the looks I get when I tell people on the dock it's No.1, although getting a little tired of feeling I have to justify why I CAN handle the boat.

Bought my Rocna, 35 lbs., from Canadian distributor since I am in Canada. Shipping was reasonable to Ontario.


----------



## camaraderie

*although getting a little tired of feeling I have to justify why I CAN handle the boat.

*Scott...I don't understand this comment. Are folks telling you that you can't handle a 33 foot boat?? ...or the payments?? (G) Welcome!


----------



## scottbr

I think people are surprised I would buy a 33' as a first boat, but maybe both.


----------



## Valiente

Phffft. I started sailing as crew in May, 1999 and bought a Viking 33 on August 31st, 1999. It was pointed out to me that a bigger boat would be slightly more forgiving if I screwed up, and that was the case. As it was less tender and "twitchy" than, say, a 26 footer (and had standing headroom and better access to the engine and stowage), we used it a great deal, even as I was aggressively club sailing on a Newport 27 and a C&C 41 on race nights. What I learned by continuing to crew allowed me to cruise a semi-race boat as a cruiser far more effectively than if I had just learned on my own, so to speak.

It helped a lot that it was a tiller boat. Playing with the sails and observing the weather/lee helm helped me to intuit the forces moving the boat.

Good luck.


----------



## firehoser75

*Rocna User*

After reading a lot of information on various anchors, I bought a Rocna anchor for my boat this summer. So far I have anchored with it about 8 times. It has never failed to set on the first try, and on two different nights (different locations), it has held firmly with 25 knots of wind. I am very happy with it so far. I am lucky, I live in Vancouver (Canada) and was able to pick it up myself.
However, the comments about it bringing up large amounts of mud are true.

Tom


----------



## BrianInIraq

For my '08 Beneteau 40 (17,000lbs) my dealer is including a Delta 44 (with 15' 3/8 chain and 200' 5/8 rode) in their "Sailaway Gear." My cruising grounds are the mud-bottomed Chesapeake - I'm thinkin' I may get a Rocna as a primary and use the Delta as a backup. Or - if the price difference between the Rocna and the Manson Supreme is that great - I may go with the latter (I was perfectly happy with my "Bruce clone" on my last boat). Wish I was gonna be home in time to compare the buggers at the Annapolis Boat Show (gonna miss it by a week!).


----------



## JohnRPollard

Brian,

I have been following this thread, and others about the Rocna. It sounds like an impressive anchor with amazing holding power. But, as a fellow Chesapeake sailor, whenever I read these accounts about the amount of mud that comes up with them, all I can think of is "what a mess". As it is our CQR and the chain bring up more than I'd like, but nothing like what I hear described here. Heck, if the environmentalists get wind of this these Rocnas will be banned before any of us has a chance to buy one!

Our CQR holds reliably here in the Chesapeake. And I cruised extensively in the Med with one and never had trouble with it. We also have a Delta on our bow roller that we never use anymore because anytime the wind pipes up we drag. I would like to swap that one for a bruce/claw.

Anway, congrats on your new boat and keep your head down. When you get back you'll have plenty of time to tweek the anchor selection.


----------



## sailingdog

Actually, John, the Rocnas may do less damage than the older anchors... since they tend to set very quickly. The couple times I've dived on mine to check the set, it has set within about 4' of where it hit the bottom. Most anchors will leave a longer furrow than that... and I haven't seen any sign of it moving, even when the wind/current shifts. So it may be pulling up a chunk of bottom the size of the anchor, but I think other anchors do more damage to the bottom, by digging long furrows in it.


----------



## Wayne25

Always an interesting topic. One question for the Rocna users. If it comes up always encased in "the bottom", I assume it will be encased on a wind/current change reset. Will the encased debris stop it from resetting?


----------



## Brezzin

No. Picture a spoon, That is essentially what these new gen anchors are. Unlike a danforth the muck can't jam anything up. The weight and surface and angle of the blade cause a downward scooping action and when the wind shifts if the anchor does need to reset the "old" muck simply pushes off the spoon as the anchor resets. I'll grant you that this is a simplistic discription but this is what it is.


----------



## scottbr

Wayne, I just spent 8 nights on the hook in various locations. I don't think I woke up more than one morning facing the same direction as when I went to sleep. Each time the anchor had reset itself just as strong as the initial set. I even tweeked my back on the last morning thinking I could pull it out of the mud by hand.


----------



## sailingdog

I don't really think this is a problem. For one thing, I don't think the anchor ever surfaces, even when it is being turned around by a wind shift... based on what I saw on one time I dived on the anchor... It seems to bury itself pretty deeply when it can. I haven't dove on it on a rock bottom...just on sandy and muddy bottoms.

BTW, I think the only reason it always comes up covered in bottom is because the anchor is concave rather than convex... shaped like a spoon, as previously pointed out, not like a plow, which would tend to drop or shed the bottom as it was raised...



Wayne25 said:


> Always an interesting topic. One question for the Rocna users. If it comes up always encased in "the bottom", I assume it will be encased on a wind/current change reset. Will the encased debris stop it from resetting?


----------



## JohnRPollard

SailingDog, 

I was of course kidding about the environmentalists banning the Rocna, and I'm sure you're right about them leaving shorter furrows. But the mess that comes up with it still does give me pause.

Scott, 

Your sore back brings up another question. We set and haul our 35 lb CQR without a windlass. It almost sounds like the Rocna would be set so well we'd have to have a windlass to get it up. Or can it be extracted easy enough when the rode is "up and down" ?

Where in the US can a Rocna be purchased?


----------



## sailingdog

John-

You can contact the North American Distributor, which is Suncoast Marine.



> *e-mail* [email protected] *phone*+1 604 781 8347*fax*+1 604 451 5192*post*395 / 2242 Kingsway, Vancouver BC V5N 5X6, Canada*web*www.suncoastmarine.ca


You can extract and raise the Rocna without a windlass.... but it is much easier with one ...since the setup I have has 30' of 5/16" chain, the 33 lb. Rocna and 20-30 lbs. of mud/sand. I usually use the boat to break it out though. Tighten up on the rode and then let the movement of the boat break it free.


----------



## scottbr

John, ditto what sailingdog said. I usually let the momentum of the boat break out the anchor if it's stuck, but this time I was too stubborn. I have 50ft. of chain which adds 1 lbs. per ft. of chain to the 35 lbs. anchor. I usually can pull it up fairly easily, ( I taught the Admiral to drive so she didn't have to) but a windlass may be a good future investment.


----------



## Brezzin

sailingdog said:


> You can extract and raise the Rocna without a windlass....


Oh my back hurts just thinking of that. My Rocna weighs in at 88lbs and with 3/8" chain, well It's never comming up by hand. I must pay homage to, and make great preventive maintance offerings to the god of the Lewmar windless...


----------



## sailingdog

Brezzin-

You just gotta start working out more...


----------



## TSOJOURNER

It appears that you can now purchase Rocna anchors in the US @: http://www.bestmarineimports.com/cg...145;search=Rocna+Anchors;limit=category;v=2.0

Best Marine is in Ft Lauderdale

Still a little more than Manson, but I have a real problem with companies that steal ideas. Makes me wonder how well they will stand behind their copy.

Roger


----------



## camaraderie

Stout...there is a whole series of BEWARE of this VENDOR notes on BestMarineImports on a couple of other boards. I would check with CRAIG and ask if he has dealt with them before I sent any money in!!


----------



## sailingdog

AFAIK, the only North American distributor is SunCoast Marine, in Vancouver, BC. I don't believe that Best Marine is a legitimate dealer. 

Just as an anecdote, this past weekend, we anchored out. We were in about 16' of water with a mud/sand bottom. I lowered the Rocna and backed the boat down, letting out the 30' of chain and about 30' of rope. I snubbed off the line on the windlass...with only the gypsy holding the rope and started to back down with the engine. When the Rocna dug in, the rope got stripped from the gypsy and about another 10' went out before the momentum of the boat stopped stripping line from the gypsy. I put on a chafe sleeve and let out another 10'. One of my crew was surprised at how hard and suddenly the Rocna set. I wasn't.  Again, when I retreived it, we had to let it dangle in the water for a few minutes under sail, to wash most of the mud off of it. It was completely covered with mud. Experiences like this have let me rest much easier at anchor.


----------



## TSOJOURNER

Cam.....thanks for the warning!!!!!!

I got this from Craig earlier today:

Our apologies but Best Marine cannot supply you with a Rocna – they are no longer a reseller. We have repeatedly requested they remove the Rocna advertisement from their website, but to date they have not done so.



You may purchase directly from Suncoast Marine in Vancouver – the freight via ground shipping is not too bad. Alternatively, you may also order via West Marine. WM do not yet have the anchor listed in their catalog, but if you call their sales staff and quote the appropriate SKU # as below, they can ship you one from their central warehousing.



9261660 Rocna 25, 25kg Steel Anchor

9261678 Rocna 33, 33kg Steel Anchor



I hope that helps. Regards,


Craig @ Rocna


----------



## Maine Sail

*O ordered mine...*

I ordered my 33lb Rocna from Suncoast and they were great to deal with oh and yes the anchor ROCKS & it sets like you hit a brick wall!


----------



## kmclarke

*Maybe a group purchase,*

would reduce shipping costs.I am going to buy a Rocna 33 but I won't need to order for a couple of weeks yet. I will have mine shipped to the Oriental/New Bern NC area.Anyoneelse in that area need one?
Kevin.


----------



## TSOJOURNER

kmclarke said:


> would reduce shipping costs.I am going to buy a Rocna 33 but I won't need to order for a couple of weeks yet. I will have mine shipped to the Oriental/New Bern NC area.Anyoneelse in that area need one?
> Kevin.


Great idea!!!! Our boat is on the Pamlico in Engelhard (near Swan Quarter) and we don't leave till Nov 1. Any idea how to arrange a group purchase?

Roger


----------



## sailingdog

This past weekend, we anchored out at Tarpaulin Cove, and when we were backing down to set the Rocna, it pulled about a yard of line through the gypsy on the windlass before we could kill the engine.


----------



## Joesaila

Wew, just came within a click of ordering a Rocna 15 from Bestmarine. I emailed Vancouver a couple of days ago but never got a reply. Bestmarines site said it woud be delivered at a good price too. I'll try e mailing again, then a call.


----------



## sailingdog

Joe-

I wouldn't order from Best Marine, especially given that Craig, from Rocna, has said that they're not a dealer. Give Suncoast another call....


----------



## TSOJOURNER

Craig Smith said:


> Kava, if you're going to be at the Annapolis show, you'll find Rocna. There will be a little demonstration model you can play with. Nothing very impressive I'm afraid, we're still working on North American distributors.
> 
> Last word: don't be fooled by copies...


Craig, will ROCNA have any "discounted" prices at the MIAMI INTERNATIONAL BOAT SHOW in February??

Thx!


----------



## Maine Sail

*Craig should..*

If Craig really wanted to win he'd begin offering ever member of a sailing forum a special "forum discount code". Demographics wise he'd be in a far better place by doing this.

Every purchaser of a Rocna that I've seen on boating forums talks positively about them and I've yet to see a bad report. I also monitor about 14 other sailing forums and every month I see more and more people talking up the Rocna because they bought one. Unfortunately, these numbers should have grown faster than they have. What's holding the Rocna back? Here's a hint it's not the anchor, or it's performance or it's vocal core of CQR defenders and detractors it's his distributor and pricing strategy here in North America that's holding him back.

The more forum users Craig has with Rocna's the more he'd sell because we would all be on here selling them and he would no longer have to.

I purchased a Manson before my Rocna and it out performed every other anchor I'd owned (2 CQR's, 2 Spades, 1 Delta, 2 Fortresses, 1 Bruce, 1 Supermax, 1 Manson - don't ask!) I then wanted to see the real McCoy so I ponied up and bought a real Rocna.

Was my Rocna expensive? Yes! Was it worth it to me? Yes! Is it worth it to the 98% of boaters who anchor out less than 15 or 20 times a year with their CQR's? No, not at the huge price difference between a Manson Supreme and a Rocna especially when the performance is so similar!

If Craig made the price of the Rocna 10-13% more than a Manson Supreme they would probably sell like hot cakes but, at almost double the price on certain models with shipping, people do what I did and by the Manson. The problem is most will never do what I did and then buy the Rocna. Every sale Craig gives up to Manson is a LOST sale most likely NEVER recovered. Craig could fix this if he really wanted to.

Craig may not be lying when he says the Rocna is a superior anchor in build quality but who's to really know for sure until destructive testing has been done head to head. The Manson is a great anchor that performs on par with the Rocna, and I do own one, it's not a "Rocna" but is the Rocna's delivered price worth 40-80% more than the price of the Manson.

My take on Craig's pricing strategy:

Keep the price high sell fewer anchors and be the exotic "new generation"
anchor for the chosen few and deal with the constant forums bashing and attacks by the tried and true crowd of CQR/Bruce/Delta users.

Drop the price to a level close to the Manson Supreme and BECOME the next Bruce/CQR/Delta. The make up in volume would net him the same money, or more, and his anchor would be on the bows of 40% of boats rather than 1%...Economies of scale allow lower prices and Craig certainly has some room now to do that.

Craig may have the better built product but he's foolishly giving the market away to a knock off because he clearly does not understand the US market. he also needs to undertake head to head tests before making claims against other brands.

If Craig keeps on with his current business strategy the Manson Supreme is likely to become the next Bruce or CQR not the Rocna even though it may be the better built product.. I feel that because the Supreme & Rocna perform so similarly most won't pony up for the purported "high quality construction" of the Rocna and why should they at almost double the price. It's really too bad..

Craig if you truly don't have the room to drop your price, as you say you don't, then you need to find a new manufacturer.

I love my Rocna, and want to see you succeed, but it's painful watching you conduct your business the way you do here in North America. Please don't take this as a personal attack or insult but rather take a deep breath and ask your self where you want to be in 10, 15, 20 or 30 years down the road as an anchor/marine markets manufacturer then ask yourself if how your currently doing things will actually get you there...!

That being said, the Rocna & Supreme are still the best performing anchors I've owned regardless of the price differences and Craig is the one losing!


----------



## TSOJOURNER

Well said, halekai36, in my case, our sailing club has 40 or more sailboats, NONE have the MANSON OR ROCNA............

Now that I've ordered a MANSON SUPREME I promise you people on my dock will be asking about the "funny looking" anchor protruding over the dock either while I'm dockside or in the clubhouse..................

And after some "practical use" reports to the club these guys will be buying....especially when they can order it at the WEST MARINE EXPRESS a few blocks down the street.


----------



## sailingdog

Actually, Rocna and Craig have two problems, only one of which is the price as Halekai has discussed. The other problem is that they don't really have a North American distributor that is worth a damn. I had to order my anchor from Suncoast all the way up in British Columbia, and that means that not only did I have to pay the price premium for the anchor, I also had to pay a fairly expensive shipping charge. Even the 15 kg anchor is massive... it came in a box that was too large to ship UPS...and had to come ground freight. 

I think Rocna really dropped the ball when they let Manson get their Manson Supreme into West Marine stores, without offering Rocna anchors via West Marine as well. 

Like Halekai, I tested quite a few anchors before I sprang for the Rocna. Unlike Halekai, I borrowed the ones I tested... so I don't have four hundred pounds of spare anchors lying around.  I have yet to see another anchor that sets as well, as reliably and as quickly as the Rocna... but I seriously doubt they're going to get much market share given the two problems they have in the US.

It's bad enough that they're almost double the price, but when you add the shipping and handling costs in, the price premium is ridiculous. This is made even worse by how weak the dollar has become... at least when I bought mine, the USD was still fairly strong against the Canadian Dollar. 

Most boaters aren't going to be be willing to pay an 100-130% price premium for the Rocna. I can see that the really serious ones might, as Halekai and I did... but your average boater won't. I can see that they would go down to their local WM and take a look at the Manson Supreme, since it is almost as good as the Rocna, and superior to most of the other anchors out there, and that's what they'll end up buying.

IMHO, I have to agree with Halekai. Rocna should drop their price... they'd take a huge chunk of the market if they were priced within 10-20% of the Manson Supreme and were available locally. They would likely displace most of the Claw, Delta and CQR buyers as well. 

The two real problems I see are: 

First, can Rocna price the anchor in that range without lowering the quality of the product? It's the best anchor out there hands down IMHO, but they need to keep it that way and not cut corners. But they have to bring it down to within 20% or so of the other next generation anchors on the market. 

Second, can Rocna find a distributor/manufacturer that can make the product and get it to the stores in the US in the quantities that the US market will demand? There's no point in lowering the price unless they can get the anchors into the retail stores—where people can see the quality differences. They've already got people who will advertise the anchors for them due to owning and using them. I've had people ask about mine at my marina and at some of the places I've gone with my boat... but when they ask me where they can see one... I tell them, they can't. Even worse, when they ask me where they can buy one and how much it cost... I tell them and their faces blanch. Not an ideal way to sell them.


----------



## SimonV

I would like to buy a Rocna, but a Manson Supreme at half the cost is definatly not half the anchor. so Manson Supreme it will be.


----------



## Maine Sail

*A little more information*

Hi All,

I wanted to add actual Manson Supreme pricing from my local distributor Hamilton Marine so Craig will have some real data as to what Manson's costs/selling prices are here in the North East with NO shipping.

I also posted my commercial account discount below the Manson 24lb price because that's what I pay as a commercial customer at Hamilton. I did this to simply show margin as Hamilton is STILL making a nice profit off me at $204.00.

My Manson Supreme was NOT made on the North American continent and was shipped here from down under. According to Craig he is building the Rocna's both on the North American continent and down under so his shipping costs SHOULD be less building them here than Manson's.

To be fair I've posted Suncoast's pricing as well:

*Hamilton Marine Manson Pricing 24lb.*
Manson Supreme 24lb. 
 
List Price: $393.95 / EACHSelling Price: $257.99 / EACH
My discount:$204.00 / EACH

*Suncoast Marine Rocna Pricing 22lb.*
Rocna 22lb. 
List Price: $430.00
Sale Price:$365.00
*PLUS SHIPPING TO US LOCATION

Price differential = +$107.01 for the Rocna Plus Shipping
* *
__________________________________*

*Hamilton Marine Manson Pricing 35lb.*
Manson Supreme 35lb.
 
List Price: $568.95 / EACHSelling Price: $377.99 / EACH

*Suncoast Marine Rocna Pricing 33lb.*
Rocna 33lb. 
List Price: $515.00
Sale Price:$449.00
 *PLUS SHIPPING TO US LOCATION

**Price differential = +$71.01 for the Rocna Plus Shipping*
* 
**_______________________________

Hamilton Marine Manson Pricing 46lb.*
Manson Supreme 46lb.
 
List Price: $724.95 / EACHSelling Price: $449.99 / EACH

*Suncoast Marine Rocna Pricing 44lb.*
Rocna 44lb. 
List Price: $675.00
Sale Price:$599.00
 *PLUS SHIPPING TO US LOCATION

**Price differential = +$149.01 for the Rocna Plus Shipping*
* 
_________________________________
**
 Hamilton Marine Manson Pricing 59lb.*
Manson Supreme 59lb.
 
List Price: $954.95 / EACHSelling Price: $619.99 / EACH

*Suncoast Marine Rocna Pricing 55lb.*
Rocna 55lb. 
List Price: $815.00
Sale Price:$725.00
*PLUS SHIPPING TO US LOCATION

**Price differential = +$105.01 for the Rocna Plus Shipping

P.S. I paid over $100.00 for shipping on my Rocna 33lb.. Craig we NEED a better dealer network and special ordering from West Marine at FULL list price is just NOT competitive...

Again, I wan't Craig to succeed and I feel the Rocna is the finest anchor being built today!
*


----------



## sailingdog

Actually, the price differential isn't all that bad now... on the 15kg the differential is only 20% or so, but the shipping kills you.


----------



## Valiente

Jeez, you guys are marketing consultants, field testers and rabid partisans. Craig should put you on retainer with that fat margin he's collecting.


----------



## sailingdog

LOL... Ya think???


Valiente said:


> Jeez, you guys are marketing consultants, field testers and rabid partisans. Craig should put you on retainer with that fat margin he's collecting.


----------



## SailMonkey

*Rocna's at West Marine...*

Well, now Rocna's are available at West Marine. They can be shipped to a WM store from their DC, at no extra cost.

Currently Defender Marine is having a sale (about 10%) on all items. It ends tonight at Midnight. They carry Manson Supreme, but not Rocna.

At this moment (3/30/08, 1:15pm CST), here are the costs between the two, at the 33-35lb level:

*Rocna 15 (33lbs)
@ West Marine (ship to local store) = $508.00

Man.Supreme 35lb
@ Defender.com (shipped to Wisconsin) = $334.27*

If you live in Waterford, CT (Defender's store) you could visit in person until 3pm EST, and the Manson would cost you just $305.99.

Now, I'm an Industrial Designer, I care about aesthetics and have a good perception of sound engineering, based on that I would rather have a Rocna. But it's an ANCHOR! Looking a little better (and performing a 'little' better, possibly) is certainly NOT worth $173.73, or better said..*52% more moola.

*So Rocna has gotten a great distributer in the US (west marine), but this has not solved it's price problem. Their real problem stems from the fact that they only make Rocna Anchors. They are a boutique anchor manufacturer, with no economies of scale, no existing infrastructure to leverage, and no other profitable product lines to help pay for company overhead & costs.

Just from viewing Manson's website I've seen they must be quite large and have a long history, since 1972. They have an extensive product line, with high margin items like mega-yacht anchors, and bread-n-butter lines like smaller kedge, bruce-type, and plow-type anchors. I would guess that those are the reasons it can offer it's spade-type anchor at much more palatable pricing. It doesn't need huge margins to pay for it's entire company's existance...as Rocna does. So I wouldn't buy into the idea pushed by Rocna that the 'other' anchors are inferior due to cost cutting measures. If you really understand new product development and business in general, you can see the more likely reality.

I hope Rocna is purchased by a larger entity very soon. Then the price can come down, and everyone can have this awesome anchor. Until then, if you buy one, it seems to me it's simply 'charitable giving' to Rocna.


----------



## sailaway21

So Sailmonkey rejects the extra cost value of the Rocna based upon his experience as an Industrial designer. (if I got that right) I've read a number of anchor test reviews and I somehow missed the industrial designer input. Does it specifically relate to it's appearance on deck or it's understated elegance on the bottom. Would offering it in a nice machinery grey paint job improve it's desirability from an industrial design standpoint? (g)

I suppose that your perceptions might be colored by the fact that you'll be anchoring in Wisconsin and, if it turns out you really need the extra holding power of the Rocna, you'll have about a hundred miles to have one helo'd out to you before you fetch up on the Michigan shoreline.

Ford Pintos and Mercedes-Benz's both have four wheels on them but I think that Ford has pretty much given up on the head to head comparisons.

I'm actively trying to think of a boat that I cared so little about that, were I dragging anchor, I wouldn't spend $174 to make it stop. The only one I'm coming up with is any brand, make, or style with my mother-in-law on it.

Buy whatever you want and then get back to us on the anchoring thread after you've tried it out. Oh? This _is_ the anchoring thread? What the heck are we talking about, money?


----------



## Giulietta

HOW TO CALL CRAIG SMITH:

type this:

ANCHOR/TANDEM/ANCHOR TEST/DRAG/DANFORTH/BOAT/WIND/GALE


and wait.....(counting time now)


----------



## sailaway21

possible world record at stake here. Passing 34 minutes....


----------



## Freesail99

I said it before typing Rocna, doesn't get Craig to pop right in any more. Business must be very good.


----------



## Giulietta

Freesail99 said:


> I said it before typing Rocna, doesn't get Craig to pop right in any more. Business must be very good.


or too embarrassing


----------



## sailaway21

3/4 of an hour. We're getting close to the time we might think about notifying EMS. (g)


----------



## SailMonkey

sailaway21 said:


> So Sailmonkey rejects the extra cost value of the Rocna based upon his experience as an Industrial designer. (if I got that right) I've read a number of anchor test reviews and I somehow missed the industrial designer input. Does it specifically relate to it's appearance on deck or it's understated elegance on the bottom. Would offering it in a nice machinery grey paint job improve it's desirability from an industrial design standpoint? (g)
> 
> I suppose that your perceptions might be colored by the fact that you'll be anchoring in Wisconsin and, if it turns out you really need the extra holding power of the Rocna, you'll have about a hundred miles to have one helo'd out to you before you fetch up on the Michigan shoreline.
> 
> Ford Pintos and Mercedes-Benz's both have four wheels on them but I think that Ford has pretty much given up on the head to head comparisons.
> 
> I'm actively trying to think of a boat that I cared so little about that, were I dragging anchor, I wouldn't spend $174 to make it stop. The only one I'm coming up with is any brand, make, or style with my mother-in-law on it.
> 
> Buy whatever you want and then get back to us on the anchoring thread after you've tried it out. Oh? This _is_ the anchoring thread? What the heck are we talking about, money?


Wow. Harsh. But I wasn't rejecting the Rocna based on design. I've read the entire thread, and others, and have learned that the performance difference between the Rocna and the Manson is negligible. My comment about the Rocna's design/engineering was to simply illustrate that I would actually prefer that anchor hanging off my bow, but that the performance difference does not justify the price difference. That seems pretty clear. I'm sorry you don't understand.

And occasionally folks do have to worry about what things cost. Of course $174 isn't anything to worry about, if it's justified. You're right. But comparing the performance difference between the Rocna and the Manson using your analogy of a Pinto vs a Mercedes seems a bit misleading...don't you think?

Anyway, thanks for the very unpleasant reply.


----------



## sailaway21

Monkey, 
Just one of those days and we ARE talking about anchors here, a not uncontentious subject. Buy what you like and enjoy it. I've just a low tolerance for sailors carping about costs. Hear it all the time and they never stop spending. Nothing personal.


----------



## SailMonkey

I wasn't meaning to carp or complain about cost... I was just trying to post that the Rocna is now available at a reliable dealer (which has been a topic of this thread). And also post that it hasn't seemed to help the price/cost much (which has also been a topic in this thread). This is the "Rocna Anchor" thread, by the way.

Sorry you're having 'one of those days'. I hope it gets better!
Cheers.


----------



## camaraderie

What we need is Sailnet or Defender to pick up Rocna...then we'd see some competitive prices.
The list price on the Manson is $568...it is Wests lack of discounting that makes the Rocna look pricey by comparison.


----------



## Stillraining

Good idea...I would be a buyer...



camaraderie said:


> What we need is Sailnet or Defender to pick up Rocna...then we'd see some competitive prices.
> The list price on the Manson is $568...it is Wests lack of discounting that makes the Rocna look pricey by comparison.


----------



## TSOJOURNER

sailaway21 said:


> Monkey,
> Just one of those days and we ARE talking about anchors here, a not uncontentious subject. Buy what you like and enjoy it. I've just a low tolerance for sailors carping about costs. Hear it all the time and they never stop spending. Nothing personal.


I know that there are people that purchase SAILBOATS as opposed to TRAWLERS/CABIN CRUISERS, or whatever you want to call power boats, for the COST ASPECT and ONLY the cost aspect...... especially as live-aboards.

So that leads me to believe there are thousands of sailboat owners out there cruising/living aboard because a sailboat, supposedly, although I'm NOT convinced, is cheaper to buy/maintain/operate than something like a trawler.....

All you have to do is read these forums and you can see that sailors will anchor out as much as possible....(and there's nothing wrong with that plan!).... whereas, if money was not an issue, they would be pulling into a marina every night, but that is not the case!

Bottom line, I believe that "sailors" are more cost conscience than power-boaters...... I could be wrong... JMHO!

After spending $15,000.00 on upgrades the last twelve months, a new anchor was on the list.....
I chose the MANSON SUPREME and don't regret that decision, I've had nothing but extremely good results with this anchor, NEVER DRAGGED............. so I could afford another $175.00 for the ROCNA, but after doing a lot of research, decided on the SUPREME, glad I did!


----------



## nk235

Its funny this thread just popped up as I just bought a new boat (surveyed today and great results) but it has a 25lb CQR. Over the past week I have been researching new anchors extensively, contacted Suncoast Marine, and some members of Sailnet and have read just about every anchor review and test out there. It seems that there is extensive evidence that a Rocna or a Manson Supreme is the way to go. Personally I have decided on the Rocna as I would glady pay an extra $100-$200 for the peace of mind and actually being able to fall asleep at night rather than trying to sleep but not being able to because I am worried about the anchor dragging. I do see the point made that the Rocna and Manson are so similar in design and performance that why should the price be so different, but again I would rather fork up the extra cash knowing I have the best of the best. 

In terms of Rocna's strategy vs Manson's vs every other anchor out there, I agree it would be great to be able to get a Rocna at a low price at a local place, and I agree it would be great for their company if they could do this, but even though things seem simple from the outside, there are a lot of unkown factors in terms of cost, manufacturing, distributing and etc that one cannot even begin to factor into an equation unless you actually worked for the company and knew the intimate details. I am just glad that there are these new types of anchors out there as I can't wait to try the new Rocna out and try out my new boat as well ! 

Oh by the way did anyone with a corporate or other type of discount at West Marine see if your discount applies to a Rocna? I have two friend's with these would probably order it through them if they get a discount.


----------



## Giulietta

Ohhh Craiiiiiiiiig......where areeeeeee youuuuuuuu??????


----------



## Capnblu

Spring day in Vancouver, probably out sailing. Freak snow yesterday, but back to spring today.


----------



## TSOJOURNER

NK235........
To help you with your question, the ROCNA at WM WHOLESALE (Port Supply Acct) is DISCOUNTED $20.00 off retail, whereas the MANSON SUPREME makes it a "no-brainer" decision with a discount of OVER $200.00 off retail....

so we're not just talking $175.00 retail difference here, but substantially more at "wholesale" which really takes away from the ROCNA "hype"...... 
No offense to anyone here.... JMHO......

I don't really understand why ROCNA is only $20.00 difference between retail/wholesale.... that's NOT the way to get "the trade" on your side when they can buy the competition with a 1,000% greater discount.......
for an anchor that apparently, in the real world, performs identically....

Just and observation....... to each is own, of course.


----------



## nk235

bfdtpkt said:


> NK235........
> To help you with your question, the ROCNA at WM WHOLESALE (Port Supply Acct) is DISCOUNTED $20.00 off retail, whereas the MANSON SUPREME makes it a "no-brainer" decision with a discount of OVER $200.00 off retail....
> 
> so we're not just talking $175.00 retail difference here, but substantially more at "wholesale" which really takes away from the ROCNA "hype"......
> No offense to anyone here.... JMHO......
> 
> I don't really understand why ROCNA is only $20.00 difference between retail/wholesale.... that's NOT the way to get "the trade" on your side when they can buy the competition with a 1,000% greater discount.......
> for an anchor that apparently, in the real world, performs identically....
> 
> Just and observation....... to each is own, of course.


Get outa hear! $200 off the retail price for the Manson Supreme? That means I may be able to get a 35lb galvanized Manson Supreme for around $200 when it lists at $400 at West Marine. I hope that is the case. Now I have to rethink things. Damnit! Just when I was happy about making a decision....


----------



## Freesail99

What kind of bow roller do you need for the Rocna or Manson Supreme ?


----------



## TSOJOURNER

I have a "split" roller so my CQR sits "straight" on the Port side..
the MANSON SUPREME sits at about a 10* angle on the starboard side, not a problem, just not perfectly "upright", but it does deploy and retrieve with NO PROBLEMS...... it actually rolls off easier than the CQR.

I can't speak for the ROCNA, but physically the two look identical.

And this MANSON SUPREME, like the ROCNA, has exceptional "holding" power, so I'm happy with my LEWMAR, also!


----------



## Freesail99

bfdtpkt said:


> I have a "split" roller so my CQR sits "straight" on the Port side..
> the MANSON SUPREME sits at about a 10* angle on the starboard side, not a problem, just not perfectly "upright", but it does deploy and retrieve with NO PROBLEMS...... it actually rolls off easier than the CQR.
> 
> I can't speak for the ROCNA, but physically the two look identical.


Thanks for answering my question.


----------



## sailingdog

Freesail-

I have a Lewmar anchor roller, designed for the CQR or Delta and the Rocna seems to be just fine on it.


----------



## TSOJOURNER

*rocna anchor*

I have just completed a four month trip from Ft. Lauderdale to Grenada and at the outset I bought a Rocna anchor for our Freedom 45.

I cannot praise the anchor too highly.

We deployed it in every imaginable condition from the strong tidal currents off of Alicetown in the Bahamas to the muck in the "lagoon" of St. Georges, Grenada. It never failed.

When I would dive on the anchor to see if it had set, I would typically see a line about 4-6 feet long on the bottom where the anchor had dragged until it set. At the end of that line I would see the anchor buried with only the roll bar and shank poking out. And there it would stay no matter how hard the wind would blow.

In one instance we were anchored near Nassau in a place whose name escapes me. It turned out to be a terrible place to anchor. Largely unprotected from the wind on one side, the small anchorage had a sheer cliff behind us. If the anchor failed we would have been driven into the cliff. And, because the cliff was only a few hundred feet away, we would have had little time to react. The wind blew like a banshee and we rocked and rolled all night but the anchor held.

We also carried a Bruce anchor on the bow but we never felt the need to use it. This despite the fact that at many times we saw boats around us setting two anchors.

I bought my anchor through Boaters World in Annapolis. It was not cheap but it was worth every penny.

Hope this helps


----------



## camaraderie

fortunarota...perhaps you would copy and paste your review to the product review sticky thread in gear and maintenance. Can you also specify the size you bought and the displacement of your boat? Thanks for the review! 
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-maintenance/38695-product-reviews-2.html


----------



## sailingdog

> I can't speak for the ROCNA, but physically the two look identical.


They're not identical, although the Manson Supreme is a pretty good copy. The Manson Supreme has a slotted shank, the Rocna doesn't.


----------



## Joesaila

Wew....I'm springing for the Rocna 15. I have a 30' Morgan OI. [9,500lbs] Any suggestions for chain and anchor line, Length/thickness/type? I'm googling the world and know there is some good info out there. But Sailnet is tops!


----------



## camaraderie

Joe...for a bit of overkill, I would use 5/16 chain (20ft.) and whatever length of 1/2" line you need for 10:1 scope in your normal cruising grounds. (This assumes New England cruising.) You can get away with 1/4" HT chain if you want to stay smaller and you should check that your cleats can accept 1/2 nylon.


----------



## sailingdog

If you're using 5/16" chain, I would recommend going with 9/16" or 5/8" rope, rather than 1/2" . Most windlasses for 5/16" chain require 9/16" or 5/8" rope. They're also a bit better matched in terms of strength.


----------



## camaraderie

Dawg...I don't think he has a windlass...that's why I kept the chain length short and 1/2 3 strand is plenty for a 30 ft. boat.


----------



## Joesaila

No windlass...its on the list. I believe the rope I have is 5/8 though. I am going to use the 'old' chain w new hardware and I'm adding a bow roller. Thanks for the info!


----------



## sailingdog

Cam-

I wasn't sure if he had a windlass or not, but did want to mention it since if he had one or was planning on upgrading to a windlass at some point, it would be better to have the rode that will fit it, rather than having to replace the rode.


----------



## therapy23

sailingdog said:


> If you're using 5/16" chain, I would recommend going with 9/16" or 5/8" rope, rather than 1/2" . Most windlasses for 5/16" chain require 9/16" or 5/8" rope. They're also a bit better matched in terms of strength.


Dog,

What size Rocna for a Gemini 105Mc?
Where is the best price today shipped to Florida?
There is a WM 25 miles or so from me.

Thanks


----------



## sailingdog

I'd go with a Rocna 15 for your boat. If you have the same philosophy about ground tackle I do, you might upsize to the Rocna 20... though the 15 would probably hold your boat in most conditions. I have the Rocna 15 on my boat, and it is probably a bit overkill.  Maine Sail uses one as the primary on his CS36T IIRC, and that boat is a bit longer and heavier than your Gemini, but you have a bit more windage than he does.

You don't need one shipped to Florida, as West Marine now carries Rocnas, and you can order from West Marine and pick it up at the store-which sure beats shipping it from the Pacific NorthWest, where the North American manufacturer of the Ronca anchors is located. 


therapy23 said:


> Dog,
> 
> What size Rocna for a Gemini 105Mc?
> Where is the best price today shipped to Florida?
> There is a WM 25 miles or so from me.
> 
> Thanks


----------



## Craig Smith

therapy23 said:


> What size Rocna for a Gemini 105Mc?
> Where is the best price today shipped to Florida?
> There is a WM 25 miles or so from me.
> Thanks


Refer Rocna sizing recommendations:
http://www.rocna.com/main.php?section=best&chapter=sizing&page=0

I'd say that SD's comments above are on target.

An up-to-date list of American resellers is maintained here:
http://www.rocna.com/main.php?section=best&chapter=where&page=0&region=na


----------



## therapy23

sailingdog said:


> I'd go with a Rocna 15 for your boat. If you have the same philosophy about ground tackle I do, you might upsize to the Rocna 20... though the 15 would probably hold your boat in most conditions. I have the Rocna 15 on my boat, and it is probably a bit overkill.  Maine Sail uses one as the primary on his CS36T IIRC, and that boat is a bit longer and heavier than your Gemini, but you have a bit more windage than he does.
> 
> You don't need one shipped to Florida, as West Marine now carries Rocnas, and you can order from West Marine and pick it up at the store-which sure beats shipping it from the Pacific NorthWest, where the North American manufacturer of the Ronca anchors is located.


Thanks,

When I went to the Rocna site for my length and moving up one on the chart for a cat I ended up with a 25 and there was one more option (in blue) higher still.


----------



## therapy23

Craig Smith said:


> Refer Rocna sizing recommendations:
> Rocna Anchors - Sizing Recommendations
> 
> I'd say that SD's comments above are on target.
> 
> An up-to-date list of American resellers is maintained here:
> Rocna Anchors - Where to Buy


OOPS!

Read the chart wrong.  Biggest listed - the 25 (55 lbs)


----------



## Craig Smith

Therapy, looking at the Rocna chart, a 34' monohull at 4 t is at the very low end of the range for the 15 (which is rated for a 36'er at 7 t), if that's where you are - one size up is the 20, and even the 15 at this point has a lot of overhead to allow for a cat. The 15 would be adequate for most usage; go with the 20 if you want to be super conservative, and if the rest of your gear is matched to it (or you're prepared to also upgrade it).

More on the Rocna sizing:
http://www.rocna.com/kb/Rocna_sizing_recommendations


----------



## therapy23

Craig Smith said:


> Therapy, looking at the Rocna chart, a 34' monohull at 4 t is at the very low end of the range for the 15 (which is rated for a 36'er at 7 t), if that's where you are - one size up is the 20, and even the 15 at this point has a lot of overhead to allow for a cat. The 15 would be adequate for most usage; go with the 20 if you want to be super conservative, and if the rest of your gear is matched to it (or you're prepared to also upgrade it).
> 
> More on the Rocna sizing:
> Rocna sizing recommendations (Rocna Knowledge Base)


The cat is a Gemini. 8600 lbs from the factory, so let's say 11k max.
I'll check the rest of the gear. The chain looks really thin looking. Advertised as HT but don't know the size.
I haven't closed on the boat yet.


----------



## sailingdog

Therapy—

I'd recommend going with 5/16" G43 chain, if the windlass gypsy can handle it. Good luck on the survey and seatrial.


----------



## therapy23

sailingdog said:


> Therapy-
> 
> I'd recommend going with 5/16" G43 chain, if the windlass gypsy can handle it. Good luck on the survey and seatrial.


Thanks,

The windlass is a Lewmar pro series. I know it comes in two sizes but don't know which it has. If it is the 1/4 can I just change the gypsy for the 5/16th if I want to move up?

Man am I going to have a million questions if I get this boat and bring it home!!


----------



## sailingdog

If Lewmar makes a 5/16" G43 high-test gypsy for it, yes, you can just swap them out.


----------



## T37Chef

*First experience with my new Rocna...*

I actually purchased a Manson Supreme first, a 45#, but I couldn't get it to fit on my roller without some serious modification...it was tooo big anyway without a windlass. So I opted for the Rocna (33#) and got it wet for the first time yesterday. It set on the first attempt and dug in quick, then today it held confidently in a pretty serious thunderstorm with winds in the 40's shifting more than 180 degrees. I have 50' of chain spliced to rope.

Nice job Rocna.


----------



## Gundie

*Re: I use a Manson Supreme...*

Hi MaineSail.
Thanks for the great post. I am currently looking for a cruising anchor for my 22ft trimaran. At the monent I use a fortress for a day anchor as its so light & easy to handle, but had the same concerns as yourself about its ability to re set on tripping with tide change. What differences have you found between the performance of the supreme & rocna?
Graham


----------



## Maine Sail

*Re: I use a Manson Supreme...*



Gundie said:


> Hi MaineSail.
> Thanks for the great post. I am currently looking for a cruising anchor for my 22ft trimaran. At the monent I use a fortress for a day anchor as its so light & easy to handle, but had the same concerns as yourself about its ability to re set on tripping with tide change. What differences have you found between the performance of the supreme & rocna?
> Graham


Was just on the club launch yesterday with another member who nearly lost their boat, a beautiful J 109, to a Fortress, we did too. Both of these situations were the same, middle of the night wind shifts followed by highish winds. In both cases the Fortress failed to re-set. They hit another boat, this was after being anchored in the same spot for three days, an that saved them from going onto the rocks. The owner of the J has ordered a brand new Spade , we are still using our Rocna....

I still love my Fortress, and they are a GREAT COMPANY THAT STANDS BEHIND THE PRODUCT. Sadly I will now only use it as a stern anchor where I know it can't be put in a situation where we need to relay on it re-setting. We will never again depend on it as a primary in the land of 10-20 foot tides and 360 swings nearly every night at anchor...

I have seen NO DIFFERENCE in performance between the Manson Supreme and the Rocna. They are both excellent performers.. Canada Metals, the new owners of Rocna, are a good company and if you can get one made under their production watch you should be fine.


----------



## bvander66

Defender sells the Ronca


----------

