# Snowy Winter Liveaboards?



## LoveAboard (Sep 20, 2016)

Hey there! Any winter Liveaboards in the New York or New Jersey area that have any tips for living aboard in the wintertime at marinas without running water connecting to your boat? Is it worth it? Do you just bring gallons of water to wash dishes? I love to cook so this sounds pretty difficult, but the back of my head says don't knock it until I try it!


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I've known several to do it. While it has a ring of adventure, I think I'll pass. Rather just adventure south. 

Several things to work out:

Condensation is a biggy. You need power anyway, get a dehumidifier. 

Heat. All I know, have used small ceramics, but I'm sure there are diesel heaters out there too. With ceramics, you want to be very sure that your boat's wiring system is up to spec and, naturally, get heaters with auto-shutoff.

Water. Most marinas that permit winter liveaboards have some provision for this. Usually there is a day of the week (or every couple of weeks) that hoses are run from ashore to top water tanks. Often, all the liveaboards get together and string all their hoses together.

Waste. This is the nastiest part. Again, most marinas that permit liveaboards have a provision and come around periodically to pump you out. I've never heard of one coming often enough, that you won't be rationing holding tank space. Clearly, you'll be walking up snowy docks to use facilities ashore, as often as you can. Further, if you skimp on flushing water aboard, you'll retain sewage in the waste line, which permeates and creates stink. In some cases, the marina will install a permanent fitting to your deck pump out port and run a hose to a place they can more easily reach. Permanent is an exaggeration. Had a neighbor tell of of the mess made, when this "permanent" fitting popped out during pump out. 

Ice. Will the marina freeze over? Could it cause damage? There's a bit of controversy over whether you might need a bubbler running under your boat to keep it from being frozen in.

Cover. You'll need to install a cover to keep snow off the decks, that still has an opening to enter/exit. The "door" needs to be more than what is typically available to get in/out once or twice over a winter. Most use a shrink wrap over a frame. I would think a clear wrap would be much better for light below, but I've not personally done this. What I can say is a plastic wrapped boat in the winter, doesn't look much like a boat anymore. 

Lots of folks feel the need to do this. Hope you enjoy, if you give it a whirl.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I am not from New York or New Jersey, but I have winter lived aboard in Toronto which is only a 6 hour drive to the North West and many of the same lessons apply.

I can't really expand much on Mind post much except to agree.

Water for us was we would run 200-300 ft of garden hose from the marina washrooms once a week or so to top off our water. Some times I would carry 2x5 gallon rhino jugs down the dock because some how it seemed like less work than running over 200' of frozen garden hose.

Waste was probably the easiest part. For $350/year they offered a portable pump out service that came every 2 weeks.

Heat was electric, both ceramic and a big oil filled, pul Kerosene lighting helps.

Condensation was not an issue for us, it was dry, we had to leave a pot of water on our oil heater to humidify the air, but that will likely depend a bit on boat design.

We shrink wrapped the boat, with good ventilation and a full height door with hinges built into the shrink wrap.

We ran 2 bubblers for ice, but if you're in salt water you may not have to.

I really enjoyed it, it was an experience of a life time and would do it again in a heart beat. My wife, not a chance.


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## Ulladh (Jul 12, 2007)

If you plan to be at a marina in a NJ back bay location be aware that they freeze and if the freeze is hard and long enough, wind driven slabs of ice in the past have ripped apart bulkheads and floating docks. Look for a location some distance from open bay water.

http://bp2.blogger.com/_sZSfW5AnVPU/SB-uL9Fq4cI/AAAAAAAAADY/K5L1JXKNpX4/s1600-h/022208_1500.jpg


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## LoveAboard (Sep 20, 2016)

Wow such thorough responses, you all are amazing, thank you for your responses. We are looking At Liberty Landing Marina which is really close to the Hudson and the open bay. Yeah not sure about ice and all that, have to decide today if we want to embark on this adventure or not. Sounds like a lot of work but definitely doable.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Arcb said:


> ......Condensation was not an issue for us, it was dry, we had to leave a pot of water on our oil heater to humidify the air, but that will likely depend a bit on boat design.....


Other than having insulation, which only serves to keep surfaces from dropping below the dew point, the only boat design issue I can think would matter is ventilation. Cold air can't hold as much moisture as warm air, so exchanging outside cold winter air will be drier. Of course, it needs to be warmed too.

I think the bigger variable is what makes moisture down below. Cooking and showering can put a lot of moisture into a cabin. Some may not do much of either, others more. Even the number of occupants, as we all exhale moisture, although, this must be the least of issues. Then there is evaporating water from the bilge, if you have a keel stepped mast, etc.

The type of heat can matter too. Electric creates no additional moisture, but fuels do, both wood and diesel.

Was that a frozen over port light on the inside? If so, it would seem there was some moisture.


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## Landwalker (Aug 23, 2016)

Winter living aboard? I'll show you winter living aboard!

(Disclaimer: Mainers be crazy.)


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## amwbox (Aug 22, 2015)

A few years back I spent a winter aboard here in the Pacific Northwest after going separate ways with a significant other. Not as cold as New England, but we get some seriously cold winds howling down the Columbia Gorge in the winter. 40 or 50 knots at less than 30 degrees isn't uncommon. I've had sideways ice cycles on my rigging before. But the biggest problem is, as others have mentioned, condensation. Have to keep the boat temp above the dew point or you'll have condensation all over the place, and eventually mildew. Even if you refrain from showering and cooking on the boat...your breath as you sleep will be close to 100% humidity. It adds up over an entire night. Especially with two people.

Ventilation, ventilation, ventilation.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Minnewaska said:


> Arcb said:
> 
> 
> > ......Condensation was not an issue for us, it was dry, we had to leave a pot of water on our oil heater to humidify the air, but that will likely depend a bit on boat design.....
> ...


Minn, yes, our hull is insulated and decks are inch and a half or so cored with teak on deck, so could be considered insulated.

Ventilation is fantastic with 7' of head room in the salon. 4 dorades, depending on outside weather conditions we have 11 opening ports (I think). We cooked on board using electric hot plate and convection microwave- no propane (I'm not near brave enough to cook with propane on a shrink wrapped boat).

We did not shower on board, we used the marina bathrooms.

The frozen port is in our small cozy aft cabin where we slept. The aft cabin is separated from the main salon by head/engine compartment and work shop. It was definitely damper back there than in the main salon, where we kept a pot on the heater due to dry weather nose bleeds.

The frozen over port light photo was taken after a week of -25. It's not uncommon to see the inside of single pane windows in houses frozen over like that around these parts.

Also, the interior of the boat is finished almost entirely with tropical hard wood, not much glass, which I think makes things feel drier. Deck stepped mast.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

LoveAboard said:


> Hey there! Any winter Liveaboards in the New York or New Jersey area that have any tips for living aboard in the wintertime at marinas without running water connecting to your boat? Is it worth it? Do you just bring gallons of water to wash dishes? I love to cook so this sounds pretty difficult, but the back of my head says don't knock it until I try it!


I spent three winters aboard while working a suit and tie job in Annapolis. The weather here is similar to NY/NJ - it's just cold longer up there.

Water

To some extent this is cultural. Some marinas have winter water with distribution systems wrapped in heat tape. Others define winter water as submerged hoses (which I find distasteful as I'm dependent on other people to maintain the integrity of the water supply). Some as noted have hose parties that are a social event. Sometimes you just have to jug water. My one winter jugging I quickly learned that keeping up (always carry five gallons to the boat every trip) is easier than keeping up. YMMV.

Heat

There are lots of choices here. Electric is common. You'll have wires all over the boat and more stuff (heaters) to trip over. You'll constantly be thinking about what you have to turn off in order to turn something else on. Your shore power connection(s) will be a major maintenance and inspection headache. Lots of people manage. Pay attention to whether electric power is included in your slip or metered.

Propane heaters put a lot of water in the air which leads to condensation. It's a pretty expensive way to heat a boat, and one more heavy thing to carry up and down the docks.

Standalone kerosene and diesel heaters take some care to avoid fuel smells and to minimize humidity.

Fixed diesel heaters require little power and whether forced air or hydronic do the best job of keeping the boat uniformly warm. There are some minor operational issues to keep maintenance down. The upfront capital cost is highest but the running cost is really low. I've elaborated on good installation and operational practices on SailNet before.

Condensation happens because something in the boat is below the dew point of the air inside. On a well-insulated boat that is generally only hatch and port trim. On a poorly insulated boat that can include the hull. There are three things you can do to reduce the problem: insulate temporarily (bubble wrap, shrink wrap) or permanently, raise the inside temperature, and ventilate. See Roger McAfee's excellent book "The Warm Dry Boat."

Waste

Four choices: find a pump-out service, convert to composting, always go ashore, or--where legal--use a Type I MSD like the Raritan Electroscan.

Snow and ice

You'll want to be equipped. In my opinion that means good warm clothes, a set of strap-on grips for your boots, a sturdy broom, and a small collection of dust pans (for shoveling snow on your boat without hurting anything). You'll want a real snow shovel as well since no marina clears the docks and walks as fast or as well as the promise. You're likely to have to dig your car out also.

In addition to usual dock lines you'll want an extra line to pull the boat really close to the dock for getting on and off. You do NOT want to fall in.

The most important thing is to never be too proud to crawl.

With respect to bubblers for remediation of ice in the water, they are the biggest scam on boat owners I can think of. Unless you have a slab-sided boat (barge, houseboat, pontoon boat) you are not at risk of damage from freezing water. In the first place you will always have a ring of water around your liveaboard boat from heat leakage. Even a very well insulated boat will have three or four inches of clear water. Secondly, except in the case of slab-sided hulls, freezing water will simply lift the boat until the weight of the boat breaks the ice. Ice damage is possible in boats stored in the water, but just not going to happen in the latitudes you are considering.

Bubblers protect the marina from ice-jacking of the pilings. See An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie) .

Floe ice is a different matter. The only thing you can do about it is pick a protected location.

Covers

I have never covered my boat - there is just too much good sailing in the winter, especially with a good diesel forced-air heater. Covers provide additional storage space (snow shovels, wet outer clothing, jugs, etc.) and do help with comfort due to heat loading. The process is time-consuming and/or expensive. Individual preference.


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## wrwakefield (Nov 18, 2015)

Hi LoveAboard,

As you say, you won't know if its for you [or if your boat and equipment are up for it...] until you try...

I have wintered on my boats many times on the other coast, and a bit further north. Similar circumstances, different climates.

As most have mentioned, besides heat, ventilation is a key ingredient to comfort.

If you are interested, there are more details in this blog post about living on a boat in cold weather with links to many related posts and forum discussions.

I hope you enjoy your adventure, and look forward to hearing what you discover along the way.

Cheers! Bill


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## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

Install a ladder off your finger dock so that when you fall in you have some small chance of getting back out. Slippery docks, ice cold water, short dark days, and not many people around, virtually guarantee your death if you go in and can't immediately haul yourself back out. That would be my biggest concern and fear over the course of an entire winter.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

Storm Windows and Drafts. Since hatches are single glazed, you may find you are loosing most of your heat there. We have a full set and they make a difference. Also drafts around sliders. Also external covers.

The trouble with shrink wrap is that you can't go out. That sucks.

Sail Delmarva: A Few More Easy Upgrades


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## oldlaxer1 (Mar 27, 2008)

SVAuspicious said:


> With respect to bubblers for remediation of ice in the water, they are the biggest scam on boat owners I can think of. Unless you have a slab-sided boat (barge, houseboat, pontoon boat) you are not at risk of damage from freezing water. In the first place you will always have a ring of water around your liveaboard boat from heat leakage. Even a very well insulated boat will have three or four inches of clear water. Secondly, except in the case of slab-sided hulls, freezing water will simply lift the boat until the weight of the boat breaks the ice. Ice damage is possible in boats stored in the water, but just not going to happen in the latitudes you are considering.
> 
> Bubblers protect the marina from ice-jacking of the pilings. See An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie) .


Dave, 
I've been told that a submersible pump with a few minor modifications ( Superior Pump 1/3 HP Submersible Thermoplastic Utility Pump-91330 - The Home Depot) will do almost as good a job as a bubbler. Have you seen these used? Baltimore Harbor so it won't be much different than Annapolis weather-wise. I'm in about 13 ft of water so plenty of warm water to bring up.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

oldlaxer1 said:


> I've been told that a submersible pump with a few minor modifications will do almost as good a job as a bubbler.


I've seen that as well as perforated hoses fed by an air compressor. They all work. Again - it's a bigger deal for the marina infrastructure than for the boats.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I have had my hull frozen in solid, with no free water around the hull running two bubblers.

I wasn't too concerned about my hull, which is thick at the waterline and has no flat edges, not even a transom, but I was a little concerned about my rudder. I used an ax to keep the ice clear around my rudder.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

The pumps work well, but only in relatively debris free and clean water. They have small slits at the bottom to prevent debris from entering the pump, which can easily become clogged with leaves and sea grasses.

I've also seen de-icers that were made using a slow RPM electric motor that had a propeller in a tub like housing. It worked like a champ and was thermostatically controlled so that it didn't run unless the temperature was below freezing. They usually do not clog up, but they are fairly expensive, averaging about $600 each.

Gary


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