# Best Cruiser: Endeavour VS Hunter (Opinions???)



## wisenomad (Aug 21, 2004)

Best Cruiser: Endeavour VS Hunter (Opinions???) 

I'm a novice sailor looking to purchase my first sailboat. And am considering two models: 
Endeavour 43cc (Ketch) from 1979 - models 
Hunter 42cc (Sloop) from 1995 - models 

I looking for opinions between these two boats or even other suggestions. I need a center cockpit vessel within this size range. Mostly for coastal and Caribbean cruising and possibly some heavy blue water cruising as well. (No draft larger the 5'3".) 

Both these vessels have similar layouts, but I hear the Endeavour is heavy and a slow cruiser, but a stronger blue water cruiser then the Hunter. Both models used sell on average between $100 - 150k. Considering the Hunter is 15 years newer...so what is the better buy? Better Boat? (considering all the variables) 

Opinions & thoughts wanted...Many thanks!


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## anthony11 (Aug 19, 2008)

This isn't what you want to hear, but others will no doubt echo it: if you're really a novice, both are biting off more than you can chew, especially the two-masted Ketch, and you're a long way from safely cruising in open ocean. Also, why the insistence on a center cockpit?

I'm close to buying a first boat too, and while I'd say I'm maybe a little past novice (but not all that much) I wouldn't think about trying to skipper anything bigger than a 30' sloop at this point.

And another thing, when drafting that $100-150k budget, did you factor in the moorage and maintenance costs of such a large vessel? Eg., you're looking at the better part of $1000 just to have it hauled out and surveyed. $1500+ to have it bottom-painted every year or two. The big diesel's going to need maintenance too.


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## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

Novice Sailor probably means different things to different folks, but going on my 3rd season and 2nd boat, I call myself a novice at best even though I read and throughly research everything I do. (Sometimes to my wife's aggravation). I also had some advantage in that I'm a commercial pilot, so understanding weather, aerodynamics (CE and CLR are very much like CL and CG) and navigation were not completely foreign to me.

So, to amplify on what Anthony said, unless you have owned a boat or two, I'd opine that you have no idea what you are getting yourself into with a 40+ foot boat that's 15-30 years old. I think the maintenance demands of any boat that age are an eye opener for first time boat buyers, and on a boat over 40' they could be crushing. I think that fact probably end up sinking a lot of peoples enjoyment of sailing, and they probably started with a boat of 30' or less. Also, there is the fact that every thing is an order of magnatude more difficult on a boat that size compared to a 30 some odd footer. Grinding in a 150 genoa on a 40' boat takes some muscle, maybe more than a crusing couple or family want to exert.

I think its a far more prudent course to start with a popular boat in the 30' range. You either learn what you really need in your next boat, or you'll learn you don't want to devote the time required to maintain a boat. If its the latter, having a popular boat in that size gives you the best chance to recoup most of what you put in the boat.

Also, unless your definition of "novice" means way more experiened than mine does, you need to make a multi year plan to gain the required experience for bluewater sailing. There are courses you can take and places you can gain bluewater experience as crew before taking on the responsiblity for the safety of your boat and everyone on it. 

Come to think of it, that might be another area where my pilot experince has shaped my thoughts on sailing. The implications of "Pilot in Command" directly translate to skippering a sailboat. While many on this site clearly understand the demands on a Skipper/Captain, when on the water, it appears that many boaters do not seriously consider that they are ultimately responsible for the safety of their boat and everyone on it.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Neither of these boats is suitable for real blue water but the Endeavor is the better built boat compared to a 1995 HunterCC. Note...my opinion is on THAT particular boat in THAT time period and not all Hunters. If you want a blue water CC boat in that price range I suggest you look at Brewer42, Whitby42, Hylas44, Pearson422 and the Bristol 41 or 44. Understand that the AVERAGE condition boat from this era will require approximately $30-50k in maintenance and upgrades to be fully cruise ready so factor this into your budget. 
I am a fan of CC boats and I think that the 40-45' range is ENTIRELY appropriate for your plans and disagree completely with the notion that it is too much boat for you to handle if properly fitted out. Just learn to sail it before heading out too far and you will find it EASIER to handle at sea and safer in trade winds and bigger seas than a smaller, lighter boat (generally). It will also have more stuff carrying capacity and live-ability at anchor.
I do disagree completely with your limitation on draft which will limit your choices, reduce performance and force you into boats that are more unsuitable for sea duty. You might consider a centerboard Bristol if the draft thing is such a big deal to you. I suggest a 6ft. limit if the ICW and Bahamas are in your plans. 
As Anthony suggests...a 44 ft. boat has a lot higher ongoing cost associated with it compared to a 35' boat...Once initial fit out is complete, I would guess about double...maybe little less. Be sure you can afford it or your cruise time will be limited!


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## Michael201 (Jul 30, 2006)

Thank you Camaraderie. Thank you for actually answering the question that was asked. I'm not trying to start a fight but it seems that some are mostly interested in telling posters how crazy and wrong they are without all the facts. I wouldn't be feeling as strongly this way if at least somewhere they would also try to ANSWER the posters question at the same time as the warnings.....


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## tommyt (Sep 21, 2002)

Well said Michael. I agree with you and Cam on this one.

The board tends to answer the question the way they would do it, and sometimes not answer the question as asked.

It is all fine and good to start with a Sunfish, move to a Laser, then 25', then 30', then 36', and finally buy the 40' cruiser you want to work on for 3 years before setting off on the journey you may never take. However, if you are 60 years old that is a lot of boats to squeeze into a couple of years   

People can and do learn on bigger boats all the time. If your horizon is short, you better practice on the boat that will take you where you are going....before you go.


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## Melrna (Apr 6, 2004)

I would get the Endeavour if they are your two choices you have your heart set on. 
I would also consider a Peterson 44, Stevens and Liberty boats as well. All are in your price range. A Morgan I/O you might also consider but not my favorite.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Good thoughts Mel...I neglected those first three and all are suitable...but would place the OI in the coastal cruiser category.


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## Robby Barlow (Apr 23, 2006)

Hate to follow suit but personally also think that the size of the vessel you're thinking about is not a problem. Apart from running costs being higher than for a smaller boat, only mooring could be considered more difficult - but if you don't have much experience - same difference, just get good insurance! 
Given the choice I'd also go for the Endeavour, but why take a 43' ketch when you can get a Endeavour 42'/44' sloop/cutter for the same money?


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## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

The OP asked for, and got, opinions and thoughts based on the facts in evidence and the experience of the people he asked. 

Its a fact that many (most?) buyers underestimate what its going to cost to own a boat after its bought. Its a fact that its going to cost a lot more to own a 40'+ boat than a smaller one. Its a fact that no reasonable person would recommend someone setting off on a "heavy bluewater" excursion without getting some level of sailing experience beyond what would be considered "novice" and at least enough to know if the boats they were considering are up to their plans. Its a reasonable assumption that a "novice" sailor looking for their first sailboat will not have a good handle on what owning a 40'+ boat entails.

No one said he needed to start on a Laser, or that coastal cruising was beyond reasonable grasp, or that they were stupid or foolish to dream of "heavy bluewater" sailing. The opinion offered was only that a 40+ foot first boat is taking a big step and that one should build some reasonable level of training and experience before setting off on any "bluewater" passage. 

But thanks for the chastizing. I will keep my mouth shut hence forth.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

wisenomad said:


> I'm a novice sailor looking to purchase my first sailboat. I looking for opinions between these two boats *or even other suggestions*. Mostly for coastal and Caribbean cruising and possibly some heavy blue water cruising as well. (No draft larger the 5'3".)
> 
> Opinions & thoughts wanted..



If you time your weather windows very carefully you can do some blue water crossings in a Hunter but it would not be the first choice for most folks seeking to undertake any more than an occasional blue water crossing.

The possibility of getting into 3+ days of 45-50+ knots is very real in many parts of the world and for that you'd want a more stoutly built boat. For coastal and carib though a Hunter is fine but the Endeavour is slower and better and more heavily built than the Hunter.

Perhaps you could better advise us as to what you mean by "novice sailor" and "first sailboat". Is this your absolute first boat, or is this your first "big boat"?

If you really have very little skills and have been a sideline/shoreline sailor (meaning watching other people do it and getting sucked into the fantasy) then I might suggest slowing down a bit and talking to folks who have been there and done it. I have personally seen many cleaned out of life savings buying and equipping a boat only to turn around and sell it two months in because the ddream did not match the reality.

Unfortunately, a 42 something will require more than just a desire. It will also require MANY, MANY skills from mechanical to technical to physical. At this point, with the info you've supplied, I'd have to say the boat choice is still a ways away and there is lots to learn between now and then..

Here are a few other CC vessels to consider (I think the Bristols and most of the Hylas CC's, unless very neglected, may be out of your price range. Some of these are repeats from CAM.

Whitby 42
Pearson 422 CC
Ted Brewer 42 (draft)
Bowman 46 (draft)
Gulfstar 45
Morgan 44 CC
Doug Peterson 44 (draft)
Westsail 42

Also, prepping either one of these vessels and making them "sea ready", for long term use, can easily run you 25-40% of your 150k investment. If 150k is your total budget you may want to consider dropping it to a max of 100k..

Here are some upgrades most all cruisers wind up doing:

Additional ground tackle = $800.00 - 2k
Windvane/Self Steering = 4-5k+ installed
Solar/Wind/Battery/Electrical = 1k to 7k
Sails/re-cuts/sews = 1k - 12k
Rigging/Standing/Running = 2K - 7k
Davits = 2k + 
Current electronics = 2.5k to 15k
SSB = 2k - 4.5k
etc. etc. and I have not even scratched the surface..

Since you have lots to read, study and learn here's a good source to begin with; 72 COLREGS

Once you've had a chance to absorb and digest the 72 COLREGS we can help you with the next stuff to tackle..


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Middy...I think the OP asked for an opinion on the two boats he was considering and other similar boats. While both your comments and Anthony's were well meaning...neither addressed his question. Anthony questioned his choice of a center cockpit and you questioned the reasonability of the size boat he wanted and made assumptions about how quickly he was going to head to blue water with the boat. He specifically said mainly coastal and Bahamas and POSSIBLY some blue water. 
I think we owe it to posters to answer the questions they ask ...then inject all the advice and opinions we want. 

As to your specific opinions expressed:
FWIW...I sold my last boat (a 44 Irwin) to a couple who had never sailed before with similar heading south plans. A year later and they are quite comfortable on the boat...have learned a lot (hired a captain for a few lessons), and only other issues have prevented them from heading south. In the meantime...they have saved tens of thousands of dollars and years of time on doing the step by step mode with trade ins and broker fees and depreciation AND they are comfortably living aboard with the space and amenities they desire. A bigger boat is EASIER to learn on...EASIER to live on and SAFER ar sea. No one NEEDS to get a smaller boat to start with and the VAST majority of boats in the Bahamas and Caribe are OVER 40 feet 

Anthony...close to 40% of full time cruisers have center cockpits...WHY?...because center cockpits make GREAT live-aboards and 90% of cruising is at anchor! They also have advantages under sail in larger boats in my opinion but that is a personal preference. 
I would also say that ketches are easier to handle than big sloops due to sail size and give the captain more choices for different conditions as well as an extra mast of redundancy though they don't go to weather as well as the same boat in a sloop. They get under bridges a bit better than the same boat in a sloop too.


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

I just bought my Endeavour 42 in May. My prior experience was with a 26' power boat and a one week crewed charter. So far so good. We are on the Great Lakes and have sailed in 30k winds but have not had to deal with big seas or currents. We find the sail handling to be easy for the jib and a bit difficult for the main, but will take care if the issue with the main this winter. I am not intimidated by the size of the boat under sail. Docking it took some getting used to!!!

I was also shopping the Hunter 42 CC of that vintage. I really liked the interior layout a lot. The problem was that all the ones I looked at had a lot of issues, and some of those issues were not easy to fix. My E-42 has a lot of issues too but they are things like replacing hoses and frozen seacocks. Nothing structural or major cost. I have added radar/plotter and a new anchor & chain so there is a bit of cash. I replaced both A/C pumps. I had to add a holding tank that the owner said was there and was missed by the surveyor. But I shopped hard and did the work myself (except the mast install of the radar).

If you are going to buy a boat more than 10 years old, expect it to have issues. When you look over the boat, you'll see things that you'll know need dealing with. Multiply that list of stuff by 5 and that's what you'll be faced with. You'd better be handy with tools or else have a big checkbook. Plan on spending a year in benign waters with close access to parts and repair facilities. Get up to speed with all systems and then work your way into bigger adventures slowly. This ain't brain surgery. But it is more costly and more work that you think it is.

I bought the E-42 over the H42 because I could see the difference in structural build quality.
BTW, the E-42 has an encapsulated keel with lead ballast. Not as fast to windward as a modern external keel but I don't have keel bolts to worry about. When I was out of the water, a new H45 was set next to me. They hit a coral head with their keel and have delamination in front of and behind the keel from the torque applied to the hull. I saw the same thing with a Catalina/Morgan 45. I expect I'll be hitting something sooner or later and will be happy with my keel long after I've been passed by all those 'fast' keeled sailboats!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

In general I would take an Endeavour over a Hunter for sturdy build quality. True, the Endeavour is heavy and somewhat slower. Are you buying to race? As I see it, as a cruiser, the object of sailing is the journey, not the destination. If your objective is the destination, buy an airplane ticket! With a slower boat, you will get more of the journey! A heavier boat is usually safer and more comfortable. My Endeavour, like all others, has an encapsulated lead keel. I have never seen a lead keel rust, but have seen a lot of Hunters with rusty keels. I have a friend with a Hunter who met a rock in the North Channel and cracked his hull, broke off a couple keel bolts, and came within inches of sinking. I have a friend who hit a sandbar in his Hunter, cracked his rudder and bent his rudder post. My Endeavour has the rudder protected by a nearly full keel. I won't say the Endeavour is a perfect boat - one serious problem is their aluminum fuel tanks in the bilge. If the owner has been in salt water and careless with bilge leakage, salt water attacks aluminum. Yes, I also had a friend with an Endeavour who wound up with salt water in his fuel separator and diesel fuel in his bilge! The Endeavour was made in Largo, Florida and designed for the Gulf. Those Endeavours that find their way to the Great Lakes find that they have sorely inadequate holding tanks. But all things considered, I would not trade my Endeavour for a Hunter until I reach a point in life where I need to sell because I am too old to handle her. A Hunter is easier to sell, because it is well known. I would not discourage you from buying a 40 foot first boat, but listen to the advice of those who have warned you about upgrade and maintenance costs - leave plenty of wiggle room in your budget! And take some lessons and do a couple charters to be sure that it's not just a dream! Here's hoping you love it!


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## tommyt (Sep 21, 2002)

Midlife,

Sorry you took my post personally. It was meant as much or more for the general population than specific to you. I have noticed a tendency lately on the board of just this situation. Someone asks a very specific question and we, me included sometime, let them know a lot of stuff....we just never answer his question. 

True, I exagerated to make the point, thus the Sunfish and Laser comment, but it was just to make the point and not to chastise you. If you go back to the beginning and the OP's question , then follow it up in the following responses, you will find that he got a lot more information that he asked for ( some very good) but he NEVER got an answer to his question. Could be he has a couple of friends that want to give him their boats and he just wants to know which one to accept. Nice dream huh?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I would recommend getting the Endeavour over the Hunter for the reasons mentioned above, but would ask that the OP clarify what he means when he says:



> I'm a novice sailor looking to purchase my first sailboat.


If you are truly a novice sailor, rather than an experienced sailor with little cruising experience, there's a big difference. Also, if you've never owned a cruising sailboat, you may not realize the costs associated with a 42' boat and how expensive it is going to be to own and maintain.

I'd point out what Beth Leonard said about owning bigger boats... she said that she was glad they had started out on their smaller boat, and only moved up to the larger boat after owning the smaller one. Smaller boats are often far more forgiving than larger boats, and the mistakes made on them tend to be less dangerous. Screwing up with a 300 sq. ft. jib is a far different thing than screwing up with a 600 sq. ft. jib. Larger boats are also far more difficult to handle because, while electric winches and windlasses can help you raise and trim the sails and raise and lower the larger anchor, they do nothing for flaking the sails, or carrying them to store in the forepeak or when you're trying to pick up the anchor to stow it down below.

The costs roughly triple for every additional 10' of boat...so a 30' boat will cost three times what a 20' boat does, and a 40' boat will cost nine-times as much...


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

Rags mentioned the fuel tank. Definately look into the fuel tank on any endeavour. Mine is brand new. The old one developed pinhole leaks in the top and let stray water into the fuel. This is not an easy task to complete. I've read of costs from $10,000 to $30,000. Mine lasted 20+ years. the new one is a better intall so I expect 30 years from this one.
Most of the salt water endeavours have had the tank replaced by now. If not, they are over due. Most of the fresh water ones have not been replaced yet but will also need it soon.

I passed on a ketch rig because there is more stuff to maintain...more rigging, more lines and more sails. They look pretty tho


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