# Hallberg-Rassy Rasmus?



## iwm (Mar 6, 2007)

After 10+ years sailing our Sabre 28 around southern new England, my wife and I are ready to move upward (in size) and onward (6-12 months IC, florida, bahama, etc). Current leading candidate is Hallberg-Rassy Rasmus, but we are also considering other late 70s, early 80s boats such as CS 36, Bristol 35.5, Valiant Esprit, Cape Dory 36. Budget should be less than $80,000ish
Would appreciate any comments about Rasmus or others, especially critical ones!!!

Thanks

Van


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Why not a typical island hopper or coastal cruiser for those cruising grounds? That is what they are made for. 80k is not much for a boat. I hope you have a bunch put back for systems and upgrades. You would get a lot more boat if you got a Beneteau or Catalina. I would actually look into a Morgan OI like this as it fits your $$ parameters and will be a MUCH more comfortable liveaboard. 
http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...rrency=USD&access=Public&listing_id=1925&url=

An Islander Freeport is nice too (as a liveaboard and motorsailor). Will not go to weateher worth a crap, but I have been in many and they are nice and comfortable.

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...rency=USD&access=Public&listing_id=62530&url=

If you are stuck on being cramped, the HR and Bristol are my first choices - but they are not the best boat for those cruising grounds. THese are just my opinions and am not trying to offend anyone. Love the boats. Just not what I would choose and why.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Well...the Rasmus is certainly a beautiful boat and perfectly up to doing the cruising you want to. I guess that I too am wondering a bit on why you are looking at full keel bluewater designs like the Rasmus and Cape Dory for you particular cruising plans. As CD says...production boats will give you more room and liveability and be equally capable of fulfilling your plans. On the other hand...they won't look as pretty IMHO. In your price range...you are trading off space and size for blue water build quality so as long as you are comfortable with that, any of the boats on your list is suitable. I would say that the CS36 will be the best performer under sail of the group and it would be my choice of the 4 for your intentions. 
We looked at several HR center cockpit boats over the years and they are wonderful vessels but I never could get past the rear cabin arrangements with the spit bunks & pilot berths for full time living aboard.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I'd have to agree with Cam and CD... a coastal cruising production boat will probably make more sense, and be far more usable and far more comfortable in the long run. 

I also recommend that you take and reserve 15-20% of your budget for upgrades, repairs, re-fitting and modifications to any boat you buy. I haven't seen a single person ever buy a boat and not do some changes to the boat to make it work for them.


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## iwm (Mar 6, 2007)

*thanks for the comments*

Thanks for the comments Cruisingdad, Camaraderie and Sailingdog

Let me give you a little more info about my thinking. I didn't think that I was all that committed to "full keel, bluewater designs." At least, I didn't think so before your comments!! That's why other's comments can be helpful. However, I was aware that I tended to choose boats with a reputation of good build quality. I'm also aware that I simply don't like the looks of some of the more modern, production boats (Hunter, Beneteau). I am also trying to keep the draft relatively shallow (<5.5feet??) But, I probably should more serously consider some of the other "production boats" in my size and price range (tartan 37, Catalina 36, maybe Sabre 36). 
But let me give you a little more info about the intended use. Before and after our extended "cruise," the boat would need to serve a similar purpose to our current Sabre 28 - day sailing, weekending, commuter to our summer home, etc. So we are really trying to find a reasonable compromise (as if all sailboats weren't compromises to begin with) between a larger, more comfortable "cruising" boat and a smaller, more easily manageable (single handed) boat for before and after. As I think about it, these additional criteria take me further away from the cape dorys and valiants and closer to the Bristol/tartan/sabre types.
One option would be to just buy a larger boat for the "cruise" and then sell it and buy something smaller when we return. But that's rather unappealing on a number of dimensions (time, money, effort, etc). So, we are trying to find something that would fit both purposes. 
So that brings us back around to the Rasmus. It is appealing in that it is not that large, appears easily single handed, and motors well (important for the commuting purpose). The windshield and protected center cockpit are also appealing features. I do worry that it will be on the small size for our longer trip, but others have certainly found it "big enough."
Anyhow, enough rambling for now. Thanks again for your comments. Any and all other suggestions/comments welcome

Van


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

I can only speak on the CS. I like the 36, but you might want to look at the 40 too, if its not out of your range for size. I like it better than the 36 down below, but they are harder to find. The couple of Rasmus' that I looked at were a mess, requiring lots of work, and my friend that owns a Rassy says that the Rasmus is not a good boat to buy. Not to mention the strange arrangement of berths.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

IWM,

The Catalina 36 is a very well done boat, but not perfect. THe MKII is the better for many reasons, but instead of listing them, take my adivce and you can research the rest yourself. It was also just written up in BoatUS.

If you want something that sails well, avoid the Freeport. However, if you are intersted in something that is very comfortable for cruising, give it strong consideration. Many of the Hunters that are 80's era are suspect. I do like the new ones (No one put a hex on me). I am concerned about the new benes and Jeauneaus and some of the catalinas, but they are well out of your price range. The older benes seemed better to me as do the older catalinas and morgans. (I keep retyping this because I am trying to stay in your $$ range).

Buying and selling boats is a losing proposition. Get the one that will do most of what you want the first time. THere is no perfect boat, period. Also, it MUST BE COMFORTABLE. If you are a cruiser or liveabord and your boat is uncomfortbale, you will not be cruising for long. What comfort is for you versus me may be different, but I look for something I can stretch out in, has a lot of sotrage, room for the kids to play (may not be a prob for you), amongst many other things. This typically makes a poor passagemaker but a great live aboard. However, if you are going cruising, you better start thinking in those terms (comfort). If you are making for distant shores, you better start thinking passagemaker. The two are different unless you have big bucks. Your boat needs to have some level of performance unless you have no time schedule. Even so, I don't care for tanks in the water. THis is another long conversation, so I will leave it there.

At 80k, you are really, really limited. If I were in your shoes, I would go with a production type of boat: an old bene or catalina or morgan. Others have different opinions. Ask PBeezer about his Ontario. Nice boat too and seems comfortable. More sold than some production boats, but smaller too. Maybe a compromise????? PB has done a lot to his boat so consider his more pristine that what you might get yourself into.

Take care. Let me know if you have specific questions. 

- CD


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Oh nooooooooo!!!!!!! CD has admitted to liking the new Hunters... Bet on the Cubs to win the World Series this year... and send Satan some snowshoes. 

Have you deserted Catalinas for good???


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

IWM....The only thing I would add is that if single handing ability is desired you should eliminate the Rasmus and any other CC designs as it is impossible to both steer the boat and deal with dock lines. I love CC's for a lot of reasons but would not single hand in one.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Good point Cam... not having much experience with center cockpit designs myself, I wasn't aware of that issue. Why are dock lines more difficult on a center-cockpit design? Is it the extra height of the cockpit??


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

SD,

I am not married to Catalina, believe it or not!!!! And I have NOT sailed the NEW (emphasize new) hunters or owned one. DOnt like the old ones at all... but dont want to sound like a Hunter basher. Only time will tell if they hold up. If it was my money, I would (and have) gotten a Catalina, but (smile) everyone thinks I am prejudice so I reccomend others I like.

Ever been on a Freeport? Damn thing is like an apartment!! Great liveaboard, but getting that thing to go to weather probably takes an act of GOD or a strong motor... and as we all know, you are ALWAYS going to weather (for reason I have never understood)!!!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Only madmen enjoy sailing to weather... My tri goes to weather pretty well.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> Only madmen enjoy sailing to weather... My tri goes to weather pretty well.


Yeah right...I bet you point good too


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Nah, I can't point... I was never trained to hunt.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

IWM - You mihgt want to look at a Bayfield. They are pretty boats with a clipper bow and quite strongly built. Performance on the smaller ones is not great upwind, but I believe that the large ones (over 30') are not too bad. There is a goodly amount of room, they have great motion in a sea, and several of them are down in the Caribbean as you read this...

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...lim=quick&rid=100&rid=101&rid=102&searchtype=


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

SD... *"Why are dock lines more difficult on a center-cockpit design? Is it the extra height of the cockpit??"

*When I sailed aft-cockpit boats...it was relatively easy to simply have a stern line prepped so I could easily snag a cleat or pilingas I pulled in while never leaving the wheel for more than a couple of seconds. 
In a CC boat you have to get out of the cockpit and go to the stern or amidships to catch a line and leave the wheel/engine unattended. In wind or cross currents lots can go wrong in that time (and of course it is always windy with cross currents when you are pulling in somewhere after looking for a breath of air all day! ) Anyway...on my boat you an see what a trip this would be above...but it is really similar on any CC boat. It is actually the only significant disadvantage I find in a CC boat while there are many advantages that I do appreciate.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Ahh... True, I guess you would have to leave the cockpit for both bow and stern lines...


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## deckhanddave (Oct 22, 2006)

I don't understand all of the posts that say that $80,000 is too little to fill his goals. Yes a brand spanking new boat in his size range is going to cost double that figure, but I don't think he said he wanted a NEW boat. 45,000 - 55,000 seems more than reasonable for a 35-37ft used island cruiser. There are scads of boats in this range listed on yachtworld. I think the used market should be kept an option for you, especially since you prefer less modern looking (molded fiberglass everything) designs.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Hi Dave,

Sorry for the late reply. I assume it was aimed at me.

You are right. There are many boats for sell at 80k. I am not a yacht broker and not a professional at this, just gave my first hand experience as I have been on many boats (not just Catalinas, beleive it or not!!). All the boats I have been on that sell for that range were either really old and would need massive upgrades, or were a POS with water damage, etc. I just went on a Freeoprt about 2 weeks ago. Asking price is 89k. I went below and there was all kinds of water damage and water sitting on the floor, etc. He said, the owner might negotiate some, but I said, "Some??!! For the tens of thousands required to get this thing liveable, moveable, and sailable, why not just spend it on a newer boat and save yourself the trouble." He said, "THis boat is ideally suited to someone that has a lot of time on their hands and is good at woodworking and fixing things."

I thought to myself, "Uh-huh. A sucker in any other language."

THat is just one example of the boats I have seen of any size in that price range. All kinds of people cruise the islands in small boats and larger ones that are a POS... but it is so hard for me to comprehend that because I have been there (with kids, so a bit of a caveat) and you really need all the space you can get and a boat that will hold together. You will get strong storms and you will be caught in them (I am not talking hurricanes). Thus, you have to drop your size parameteres down to something that fits your budget but is nice and does not require a lot of work, or you have to be someone that(what was it the broker said), "... is ideally suited to someone that has a lot of time on their hands and is good at woodworking and fixing things."

Did that answer your question dave? I am not trying to offend anyone, just giving first hand experience and hindsight to it. It does not mean you cannot do it or find a steal at that $$- you can. How long do you have to look? How many surveys and trips and travel lifts can you afford? Brokers can help, but that may also reduce your negotiation position. I will also say again, I AM NOT AN EXPERT AT THIS STUFF. JUST MY FIRST HAND EXPERIENCES. Cardiac Paul could lend a bunch to this as he is a surveyor. I would be curious of his opinion (which may be different than mine).

Others opinions may vary too.

THanks.

- CD

PS You could ask PBeezer about his Ontario. His is beautiful. But find out how much money and time he put into it too. I trust his opinion.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I don't know why I aways seem to be the contraian here, but as I read this thread, Van and family have been sailing a boat with higher than usual build quality and a reasonably good performance for its size. He is planning a trip that can be handled by any decent coastal cruiser, and ultimately would like a boat that will be a larger version of his Sabre. 

So starting with the Hallberg Rassey , this is a nice motorsailor for its era. Like most small center cockpit boats it lacks a passage between the main cabin and the aft cabin, which works alright in warm climates but which is far from ideal in a place like Maine. Like most small center cockpit boats a lot of storage and usable cabin space is lost as well since the cockpit occupies much of the prime real estate in the boat. I don't know specifically about the Rasmus, but small center cockpit boats also often have poor engine access as well. I think after owning a nice sailing boat like the Sabre, Van might be disappointed with the sailing characteristics of the Rasmus as well. 

As I look at his list of options to the Rasmus, the CS 36, Bristol 35.5, Valiant Esprit 37 would probably be better options. The CS would offer performance and build quality that is closest to what he is used to in the Sabre. The Bristol is a small step down in performance, and the Esprit would be a step up in offshore capability at a small loss in sailing ability over the CS. 

I would also add the Wauquez Hood 38, Wauquiez Pretorian 35, Hughes 38, and Sabre 36. I would think that production boats like the Catalinas and Hunters being mentioned would be disappointing in terms of build quality and in some cases performance. I also think that boats like the Bayfield and Morgan Out Island that were mentioned would also be very disappointing from a performance and build quality perspective as well. 

If Van wanted to keep with the lower performance level of the Rasmus but for a lower price, I would suggest that he consider the Hinterhoeller Niagara 35 or Chris Crafts mid 1960's era 35 foot motorsailor. 

I would think that these choices are all very convenient sized boats to sail with a couple and with some minor mods easily single-handed, and should be more than adequately sized for a couple going offshore as long as you don't try to load them up with "all of the comforts of home". 

Respectfully,
Jeff


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Damnit, Jeff pulled the trump card on me! 

WHat was that about the catalinas???? I agree, the other boats have a better "build" quality, the Catalina will have a better "survival living aboard the wife did not murder me in my sleep and I did not sit on her lap everytime I wanted to sit down" quality.

Of course, Jeff, I was going to reccomend the Hinckley 35 or 38 to him. Any thoughts there??? (smile)

- CD

I am just kidding with you Jeff!! Smile!!! Don't get mad I am just kidding!!


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

You cannot compare a Bristol or a HR to a Catalina. No way. They(Bristol, etc) are better built boats and have held up well over time. Can you really go wrong with them??? I doubt it, if it has been taken care of. Now let us look at pictures (sorry, they are the best ones I could come up with at the time):

Hall-Rass










The Bristol (a nice boat):










Cape Dory










and the Catalina 36










Here is the difference. On the first three, the most commonly spoken phrase is: "Honey, I thought it was my turn to sit on the seat tonight while you sat on the floor!"

On the Catalina: "Hello!! Anyone in there??? (echo coming back)." This is usually followed by the phrase, "Yes, hunny, I am down here. Come on down and lock the companionway behind you (smooch, smooch, smooch)."

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Jeff, I am just kidding with you... come back!!! You are (seriously) the expert on boats, way beyond my knowledge. "I YIELD THE FLOOR!"

(SMILE)


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## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

*boat "values'*

I don't know whats going on Dad, I've seen real POS's listed at out of their mind prices. (theres one where you are, take a wild guess)

"cosmetics" are a real issue. Water damage, staining, teak thats rolled up into a curl on the deck. Standing water in the cabin, all, pooh-poohed as "cosmetic"... what a hoot. Look, there ARE some decent boats out there with decent prices attached, but the growing trend is for boats to be overpriced, and sat on. That goes for both sail and power.

"name" recognised boats (read highly advertised and marketed) seem to be leading that trend. Its not that the quality is better, or that they perform better, or that they've been better maintained. its the "Oh, I've heard of them" factor. Brokers, as well they should use any means needed to lead a person to sign. If they've heard of Hunter, Catalina, or Frogbobbers, well, ain't they the best thing since sliced white bread. Yup, perfect boat for ya.

Of course, I'm speaking of "first time" buyers, not move-up or experienced sailors.

The hardest thing for me is to try to explain to a first-timer to get the stardust out of his eyes, this 1976 44 ft. CSY for 50k IS NOT going to be his perfect boat for bay sailing. I don't care if he's going to completely redo it marinas are chock full of boats who's owners had the same idea then, they found out that redoing a teak deck isn't like nailing one up for a back porch.

Hey, its his money, and I don't care if he buys it or not, my main concern is it a seaworthy vessel. After he does the sea trial, and he sits with me for an hour I ask him what he really wants to do with a boat. I won't recommend boats but I will say... you know, you might want to take a look at boat a, b, or c...


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

I put together a checklist of things Kris and I look for in a boat. I thought it might be better posted as another thread versus here. I hope that helps as to why I choose (and look for) the things I choose. 

- CD

PS CP, I bet that is the same boat that I went on!!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

One thing that I'd like to point out... in the book This Old Boat... Casey points out that most people buy their first boat, and learn a lot about what they do and don't want in a boat from doing so, regardless of how much research and study they've done. Generally, the smarter ones learn enough so that their second boat is one that they will keep for a fairly long time. Of course, this doesn't apply to the people who are trying to keep up with the joneses at dock A... and see boats as a fashion accessory.


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

Thats a very good point. I am one of those people (not the Jones). I did what I thought was a ton of research, but I knew almost immediately that I would be buying a different boat within 5 years. Not that I made a bad choice, just like you said, with the first purchase you learn a lot.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

BTW, there is a nice little summary on the Hallberg Rasmus here. My thanks to IWM for the link.


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## brak (Jan 5, 2007)

I actually came to the idea of HR 35 myself, just looked at two and going to inspect one more in a few days. They are getting pretty long in the tooth, but the design and layout are perfect. It is a center cockpit giving the privacy of separate cabin, on one hand, but not too big to be unmaintainable.

I do have some reservations on the long keel, as I do plan to be doing a lot of coastal sailing and, I am sure, much of it will be motoring. But what the heck, it could be worse I suppose. 

One thing I like about these boats is a non-balsa cored deck (they used closed cell foam apparently). This definitely makes a difference, as the two I inspected had very dry decks (compared to many much newer boats) even though neiver received a particularly good care.

That said, I'd be interested in other center cockpits, of newer vintage perhaps. The only one I found so far was S2 11, and that thing is pretty monstrous. Anyone has other pointers?


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